Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Robz888 on August 28, 2012, 11:28:58 am
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Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade
Greetings! Robz888 has invited his closest friends to attend a Masquerade ball in the Courtyard of his castle. Everyone must dress in costumes and disguises, but surely the guests will recognize each other. Robz knows his friends, and they know him, and they know each other, and they know themselves...
Something sinister is afoot, of course. The question isn't what, it's who! But only those who can see beyond the masks will find their questions answered...
This game is open to anyone, and all will be accommodated. However, it is most highly encouraged that veteran players involve themselves in this game. That's because ROLES AND ALIGNMENTS WILL NOT BE CHOSEN ENTIRELY RANDOMLY. Rather, they will be tweaked and tailored to fit the Forum Games personalities of each player.
This should not be construed to mean that the roles and alignments will be obvious to people who have read other games. They will be subtly based on aspects of players personalities. (For example, the following line of thinking will not work in this game: "Jotheonah has twice been the Serial Killer, so he's probably the Serial Killer in this game.") Furthermore, some roles and alignments WILL be determined randomly.
New players (or new-ish players) are encouraged to play as well. They will have just as much chance at a power role as anyone else. Nor is previous knowledge of other Forum Games a prerequisite for playing this game (though it will help).
This is NOT a bastard game. The setup will be engineered for balance. I am aiming for something along the lines of MVI in terms of variety of roles. There may be a number of roles approaching what would typically be found in a Role Madness or Big Money game; however, balance will be in keeping with a normal game of mafia.
Signups will remain open until about 3 of the following 5 games are concluded RMM2, Mafia VIII, Mafia IX, Mafia X, BM V. We don't want too little mafia or too much going on, so I might postpone the game or begin it sooner depending on what happens with the other games.
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss)
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah
9. Young Nick
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire)
11. Axxle
12. O, Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis)
18. TheMunch
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon
21. Watno
22. Galzria
23. Captain_Frisk
24. ehunt
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
Information on Setup
Each player will receive a role PM containing a great deal of categorized information. Here are the following things that every player will have:
Player Name: That’s you!
Alignment: There are only two possible alignments: Town and Scum. There may or may not be multiple Scum factions; however, all Scum, regardless of faction, are simply listed as Scum-aligned here (not “werewolf-aligned” or “serial killer-aligned,” for example).
Card: Each player will be dealt a card from Dominion. It doesn’t do anything; you just have it. You will not be told whether multiple people can have the same Card. Whether a player’s Card corresponds to anything else about him is for you to determine.
Role: This is the name that best matches whatever abilities you may possess. Since sources may differ on what exactly a given role does, and I may have made tweaks, please be sure to consult your Description and Abilities sections to make sure that your Role actually does what you think it does.
Description: Each player will receive a personalized paragraph that gives information about him. It may speak to his reputation as a Forum Mafia player, it may contain clues to his abilities or alignment, or it may be merely humorous.
Active Abilities: This section lists everything you are able to do. Read it carefully.
Passive Abilities: This section lists any other abilities you have that are used automatically. Separating each player’s abilities into an Active and Passive category is done for convenience of comprehension; there is no “in-game” reason to differentiate between them.
Win Condition: What you must do to win the game. The Town, for instance, has the following, familiar Win Condition: “You win when all scum-aligned players are dead.”
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A List of Possible Role and Modifiers (For information on the roles listed below, go here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles)):
Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper, Roleblocker, Vigilante, Serial Killer, Werewolf, Mason, Neighbor, Lover, Watcher, Tracker, Ninja, Hider/Commuter, Miller, Bus Driver, Bodyguard, Lightning Rod, Doublevoter, Survivor, Backup, Godfather, Jack-of-All Trades, Innocent Child, Mailman, Inventor, Gunsmith, Redirector, Bomb, Cult, Framer, Lie Detector
Modifiers: X-shot, Insane, Paranoid, Naïve, Hated, Random, Post Restricted, Lynchproof, Bulletproof, Strong, Weak
Order of Night Resolution:
1. Items
2. Overriding powers
3. Roleblocking
4. Other actions
Mafia Ruleset
Game Rules:
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind, UNLESS GIVEN MOD PERMISSION. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to me by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start). If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will generally have 2 week deadlines. If a player or No Lynch does not have a simple majority at deadline, no lynch will occur, and the game will go into night.
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 72 hours of no activity or upon request after 48 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.
Helpful Links:
- Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
- Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)
- Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)
- Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)
- Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)
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In In In In In B4 everyone else.
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So I know I said before I'd /out. But given Robz's assurances that this is engineered for balance (and I know that's not an exact science!), along with the fact that this is not a Bastard game...
Yeah, I'll join.
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In In In In In B4 everyone else.
Obvtracker.
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Hell freaking yeah!
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big in.
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in. I want to see what kind of a role robz thinks I am!
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Wait.. So..
Robz, I though you will play in EVERY regularly named mafia on f.ds?
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So I know I said before I'd /out. But given Robz's assurances that this is engineered for balance (and I know that's not an exact science!), along with the fact that this is not a Bastard game...
Yeah, I'll join.
Yay! I won't let you down, Volt!
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Tentatively in. I'm moving soon, so it might make it hard for me to be online consistently, but who knows when this will start.
I will likely be lynched early, since everyone will assume I'm scum.
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Wait.. So..
Robz, I though you will play in EVERY regularly named mafia on f.ds?
This game will be the exception. Or will it...
... It will.
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"You are town. If you survive until end-game, you will make a costly mistake, and your team will lose. Have fun with this role, you deserve it!" This is going to be awesome.
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obv in
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Tentatively in. I'm moving soon, so it might make it hard for me to be online consistently, but who knows when this will start.
I will likely be lynched early, since everyone will assume I'm scum.
Obvscum, setting up his proven Elite-Lurker play already.
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most likely in.
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Also, is there any way we get a list of all possible roles that might be used for this game?
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Also, is there any way we get a list of all possible roles that might be used for this game?
I may post a "Role Guidance" list that gives examples of possible abilities, modifers, and X-shots that could appear.
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Not in until one of the three games that I'm in now (MIX, BMV, Resistance) finishes...
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Not in until one of the three games that I'm in now (MIX, BMV, Resistance) finishes...
I can all but guarantee this game will not begin until at least one of those games finishes.
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I'd like to enter as a (mostly) newbie, if that's all right. I've played 2 games in a forum not designed for Mafia (just like f.ds here). Following X right now and quite enjoying it. :)
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I'd like to enter as a (mostly) newbie, if that's all right. I've played 2 games in a forum not designed for Mafia (just like f.ds here). Following X right now and quite enjoying it. :)
Welcome! Glad to have you aboard.
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How did my name get on that list? <checks past posts>
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But we won't be able to refer to Voltgloss as "Volt" anymore. WHATEVER WILL WE DO.
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Oh my word somehow I missed this till now! I'm so IN!! :D
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How did my name get on that list? <checks past posts>
Oh, I read your posting in here as a tacit "in". I'll take you off the list for now, but... you better play bucko!
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How did my name get on that list? <checks past posts>
Oh, I read your posting in here as a tacit "in". I'll take you off the list for now, but... you better play bucko!
But I'm swamped! Literally! I've been getting less than 4 hours of sleep each night for the past month! And it won't slow down until after November!
Besides, I already know the flavor of role you'll give me, and it's a complete mischaracterization of my playstyle these days. Remember, in M-VI, M-VII, M-VIII, and M-IX, along with BMMM, RMM, and (I think) RMM-2, I didn't cast my first vote until after you did.
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Not in until one of the three games that I'm in now (MIX, BMV, Resistance) finishes...
I can all but guarantee this game will not begin until at least one of those games finishes.
cool
/in.
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How did my name get on that list? <checks past posts>
Oh, I read your posting in here as a tacit "in". I'll take you off the list for now, but... you better play bucko!
But I'm swamped! Literally! I've been getting less than 4 hours of sleep each night for the past month! And it won't slow down until after November!
Besides, I already know the flavor of role you'll give me, and it's a complete mischaracterization of my playstyle these days. Remember, in M-VI, M-VII, M-VIII, and M-IX, along with BMMM, RMM, and (I think) RMM-2, I didn't cast my first vote until after you did.
Look at this guy. Thinks he knows what I think of him better than I do!
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I'm ... somewhat nervous about my role. Given my radically different playstyle from game to game. And my various levels of perceived bastardry in the game I'm modding.
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How did my name get on that list? <checks past posts>
Oh, I read your posting in here as a tacit "in". I'll take you off the list for now, but... you better play bucko!
But I'm swamped! Literally! I've been getting less than 4 hours of sleep each night for the past month! And it won't slow down until after November!
Besides, I already know the flavor of role you'll give me, and it's a complete mischaracterization of my playstyle these days. Remember, in M-VI, M-VII, M-VIII, and M-IX, along with BMMM, RMM, and (I think) RMM-2, I didn't cast my first vote until after you did.
Look at this guy. Thinks he knows what I think of him better than I do!
I'd pull some hilarious quotes from M-X, but I'm not allowed. Lemme just say you were near perfect... So much so, you even drew the D1 ire of O that's usually saved for me! Hell, if you can confuse even him, +1
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I'd like to enter as a (mostly) newbie, if that's all right. I've played 2 games in a forum not designed for Mafia (just like f.ds here). Following X right now and quite enjoying it. :)
Anti-twinclaiming now. I don't know this fellow in the slightest, although I approve of his username.
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/in
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I'd like to enter as a (mostly) newbie, if that's all right. I've played 2 games in a forum not designed for Mafia (just like f.ds here). Following X right now and quite enjoying it. :)
Anti-twinclaiming now. I don't know this fellow in the slightest, although I approve of his username.
And I approve of your first syllable!
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/in
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sounds fun, but I need to get back to only one mafia game at a time. If by some small chance this doesn't start until both MVIII and MIX are finished I will be in. If not I would volunteer as a sub if need be. If not I will probably get into volt's game... I have yet to be in one where he was the mod.
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psssh, I'd say that voting for 'Volt' counts as a vote against both Voltgloss and Voltaire. I'm also in; any idea on the timeframe of starting? Within a week? A month? Not before 2013?
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I'll join. I've yet to finish a game, but I'm having a lot of fun with these.
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Signups will remain open until about 3 of the following 5 games are concluded RMM2, Mafia VIII, Mafia IX, Mafia X, BM V. We don't want too little mafia or too much going on, so I might postpone the game or begin it sooner depending on what happens with the other games.
That could be so long to wait! All 5 of those games have a lot of life in them, and I'm only actually playing in 1 game right now.
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sounds fun, but I need to get back to only one mafia game at a time. If by some small chance this doesn't start until both MVIII and MIX are finished I will be in. If not I would volunteer as a sub if need be. If not I will probably get into volt's game... I have yet to be in one where he was the mod.
psssh, I'd say that voting for 'Volt' counts as a vote against both Voltgloss and Voltaire. I'm also in; any idea on the timeframe of starting? Within a week? A month? Not before 2013?
Signups will remain open until about 3 of the following 5 games are concluded RMM2, Mafia VIII, Mafia IX, Mafia X, BM V. We don't want too little mafia or too much going on, so I might postpone the game or begin it sooner depending on what happens with the other games.
That could be so long to wait! All 5 of those games have a lot of life in them, and I'm only actually playing in 1 game right now.
It's hard to tell exactly when this will start, because I really don't know how quickly currently running games will wrap up. MVIII might not actually have too much juice left, but I have no idea about RMM2, and then I was planning on letting one of those other games expire, too. But... we'll see. Although I'm sure we're not looking at a start in the next 10 days.
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Is it ok if I join? Ive played lots of forum Mafia, but on this forum :P
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Is it ok if I join? Ive played lots of forum Mafia, but on this forum :P
Of course!
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Is it ok if I join? Ive played lots of forum Mafia, but on this forum :P
Of course!
Thanks!
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Calling it now, I'll be hated because I react poorly under pressure but also I'll be a beloved princess variant that when nk'd causes the next game NIGHT PHASE to be skipped.
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I am of course going to be a 1-shot woodcutter.
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I am of course going to be a 1-shot woodcutter.
Stump.
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I have absolutely no idea what I'd be. (I guess I'll be in if my other games finish first, as Robz says is likely.)
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Calling it now, I'll be hated because I react poorly under pressure but also I'll be a beloved princess variant that when nk'd causes the next game NIGHT PHASE to be skipped.
+1
haha
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i have a guess what i'll be but i don't want to say it because then robz won't give it to me :)
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As long as Morgrim is a Survivor, all will be right with the world.
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As long as Morgrim is a Survivor, all will be right with the world.
Morgrim hasn't gotten in yet, but he better! Watching you guys try to guess Morgrim's role is one of the things I am most looking forward to.
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Your'e gonna make me a miller, aren't you.
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I'm in. I also am in close contact with someone in the game, but I'm not going to say who. This mini-mystery can be the source of a game within the game
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Informed minority = obvscum.
Vote: ibgtennis
Based on your username, you should be best friends with pingpongsam.
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I'm in. I also am in close contact with someone in the game, but I'm not going to say who. This mini-mystery can be the source of a game within the game
ANOTHER twin claim!?!?
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Based on your username, you should be best friends with pingpongsam.
+250
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I'm in. I also am in close contact with someone in the game, but I'm not going to say who. This mini-mystery can be the source of a game within the game
Welcome!
Keep in mind that you may not discuss the game with that person outside of the forum thread. Also, when people have known someone in real life in previous games, they have disclosed the nature of that relationship before or during the game. You are free not to do so, however I suspect you may reconsider under the mob's glare.
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Hmm, maybe I should make a second account and /in with both to double the fun. :P
I promise not to allow outside communication between the two. ;D
I might have to twinclaim though...
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It's cayvie, I betcha. He already claimed lgbttqqiass .. and those other letters.
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We should make a hydra account just to make Robz's job harder.
Grujzia, Gltheooble, Voltsomniac, Captain_Axxle and so on.
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+1. Maybe I'll run an all-hydra bastard game some time
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We should make a hydra account just to make Robz's job harder.
Grujzia, Gltheooble, Voltsomniac, Captain_Axxle and so on.
I've looked over Hydra play... That'd be terrifying. :P
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+1. Maybe I'll run an all-hydra bastard game some time
Thatd be prettttttty cool
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We should make a hydra account just to make Robz's job harder.
Grujzia, Gltheooble, Voltsomniac, Captain_Axxle and so on.
I've looked over Hydra play... That'd be terrifying. :P
Wanna do it? For realz!
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Nah, I wanna play in it. Somebody else should mod it.
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We should make a hydra account just to make Robz's job harder.
Grujzia, Gltheooble, Voltsomniac, Captain_Axxle and so on.
I've looked over Hydra play... That'd be terrifying. :P
Wanna do it? For realz!
Nah, I wanna play in it. Somebody else should mod it.
It doesn't HAVE to be bastard mod even, you could probably run a legitimate game this way
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Good luck to anyone whom gets to Hydra with Morgrim that game :D
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We should make a hydra account just to make Robz's job harder.
Grujzia, Gltheooble, Voltsomniac, Captain_Axxle and so on.
I've looked over Hydra play... That'd be terrifying. :P
Wanna do it? For realz!
Nah, I wanna play in it. Somebody else should mod it.
It doesn't HAVE to be bastard mod even, you could probably run a legitimate game this way
It should definitely be just a normal game with hydras.
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I'd host.
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Good luck to anyone whom gets to Hydra with Morgrim that game :D
Does it still count as a self-hammer in that case?
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once my mafia game is over, in.
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Hey, guys! I know this is my first post here, but I would be quite interested in joining in on this Mafia game. I heard about mafia on this forum from a friend of mine and wanted to participate. Hope there is room for one more!
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Hey, guys! I know this is my first post here, but I would be quite interested in joining in on this Mafia game. I heard about mafia on this forum from a friend of mine and wanted to participate. Hope there is room for one more!
Welcome!
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once my mafia game is over, in.
Which one is that?
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once my mafia game is over, in.
Which one is that?
RMM2
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once my mafia game is over, in.
Which one is that?
RMM2
Well get it the heck out of night time then!
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I am going to reverse-Voltgloss and swear off serious games because I try to do too much and it's just super time consuming. Would rather play games where I don't feel guilty for slacking off.
So how serious is this game going to be? If fairly serious, I would prefer being a backup mod or something.
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I am going to reverse-Voltgloss and swear off serious games because I try to do too much and it's just super time consuming. Would rather play games where I don't feel guilty for slacking off.
So how serious is this game going to be? If fairly serious, I would prefer being a backup mod or something.
oh, it's going to be serious.
you have no idea.
>:|
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I am going to reverse-Voltgloss and swear off serious games because I try to do too much and it's just super time consuming. Would rather play games where I don't feel guilty for slacking off.
So how serious is this game going to be? If fairly serious, I would prefer being a backup mod or something.
oh, it's going to be serious.
you have no idea.
>:|
(https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXeMYRQkW_eQ09ka_sz_SPreqkdfUXyTPpzsV35DyBYdEfePRP)
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I am going to reverse-Voltgloss and swear off serious games because I try to do too much and it's just super time consuming. Would rather play games where I don't feel guilty for slacking off.
So how serious is this game going to be? If fairly serious, I would prefer being a backup mod or something.
It's going to be serious, and I want players to take it seriously. However, I absolutely insist that you play, and I absolutely insist that you not feel guilty for slacking off. I do not believe every person should be required to put the same amount of effort into every game. It's fine to let others take the lead now and then. So you should play, and know that I specifically excuse you from doing your long information posts about every player (unless I give you a role requiring it... ;))
So you should play.
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god i am so pumped about a 20+ player game
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I'd like to enter as a (mostly) newbie, if that's all right. I've played 2 games in a forum not designed for Mafia (just like f.ds here). Following X right now and quite enjoying it. :)
Anti-twinclaiming now. I don't know this fellow in the slightest, although I approve of his username.
ohhhh is your name a portmanteau of Voltaire and Pangloss?
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I'd like to enter as a (mostly) newbie, if that's all right. I've played 2 games in a forum not designed for Mafia (just like f.ds here). Following X right now and quite enjoying it. :)
Anti-twinclaiming now. I don't know this fellow in the slightest, although I approve of his username.
ohhhh is your name a portmanteau of Voltaire and Pangloss?
I always just pictured very shiny batteries.
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ohhhh is your name a portmanteau of Voltaire and Pangloss?
It is!
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Ok Robz. Morgrim's game is over. IT'S TIME.
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Ok Robz. Morgrim's game is over. IT'S TIME.
It is NOT time yet! Not until MVIII is over, at least.
I have begun writing draft role PMs, however... (they will still be altered depending on more players joining! Would like to break 20 players. Still waiting for EHalcyon and Galzria to sign up. What other all stars are we missing? The legendary Pingpongsam? The engimatic Timchen? The quiet--but deadly!--Theorel?)
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SFS.
pops.
We have two Volts?
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SFS.
pops.
We have two Volts?
We DO have two Volts. Yes, would like Pops and SFS involved.
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I won't sign up, but if in some way I am dead in both MVIII and MVI I would love to join. If not I will pass. I'll keep you updated.
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I won't sign up, but if in some way I am dead in both MVIII and MVI I would love to join. If not I will pass. I'll keep you updated.
Oh, yuma! Flying under my radar even in the signup phase...
I assume you mean MIX? This game won't start until at least MVIII is over.
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I won't sign up, but if in some way I am dead in both MVIII and MVI I would love to join. If not I will pass. I'll keep you updated.
Oh, yuma! Flying under my radar even in the signup phase...
I assume you mean MIX? This game won't start until at least MVIII is over.
yes, that is what I meant, but I need to be only playing one game at a time... to make my wife happier, and I do like a happy wife, so I need to either be dead in all the games I am playing in or have them be over.
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Robz, I'm no longer playing ANY games. Do you feel my pain?
If nothing else, will one more person join ZM1?
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Robz, I'm no longer playing ANY games. Do you feel my pain?
If nothing else, will one more person join ZM1?
To start it we need 2 because SFS also dropped :(
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All star, ha.
Fine, I'll join.
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All star, ha.
Fine, I'll join.
Good! I know flattery is the best weapon.
Sigh, if only Galzria, the Arnold Palmer of Forum Games, would consent to play...
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You're really aiming for more than 20 players? That just seems like there would be so many, that it would be impossible to tell who's playing and who's not.
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shraeye! it will be glorious
glorious
probably want to invoke some sort of deadline lynch thing like O had in mafia VI though
or lower quorum for the first few days
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With 20+ players, may I propose beginning with a night start?
I'd be curious to see an f:DS mafia game begin at night. We haven't done that yet, and it should result in a vastly different type of Day 1.
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With 20+ players, may I propose beginning with a night start?
I'd be curious to see an f:DS mafia game begin at night. We haven't done that yet, and it should result in a vastly different type of Day 1.
Welcome to the game! You are now dead and may not post. Hope you enjoyed your game.
(Not saying it's a bad idea. Could just be hilarious. And now I will be the night 0 kill, for Irony.)
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With 20+ players, may I propose beginning with a night start?
I'd be curious to see an f:DS mafia game begin at night. We haven't done that yet, and it should result in a vastly different type of Day 1.
BM 1 would like a word.
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I forgot about BM 1.
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no-kill night 1...
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I will be V/LA from the 5th to the 10th and then again from the 14th until the 20th. I still really want to play. Robz, is this possible?
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Yes, you will still be able to play! Long absences are not a problem, as long as you can commit to reading the thread to catch up afterward.
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Done deal!
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ohhhh is your name a portmanteau of Voltaire and Pangloss?
It is!
Truly, this is the best of all possible posts.
If it's easier, I usually get nicknamed "V" on other forums where I use this name, so if everyone calls me "V" we can still have "Volt" and not be confused.
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I am dead in ix so I guess I will join this as it won't start til mviii is done?
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I am dead in ix so I guess I will join this as it won't start til mviii is done?
Correct. I will put you down!
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We're still missing Galzria, PPS, timchen, theorel, SFS, and pops if we want this Mafia game to have all the regular participants. Make it happen people!
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pops took a leave, due to some private issues, IIRC. :-\
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Yeah timchen Galzria PPS theorel get on this thing!
Oh and others too, getting to know new people is fun too. Great to have yuma on board!
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Maybe I need to sit this one out. I'm, like, barely keeping up with the three games I'm in, not really spending any time here.
Maybe I'll reconsider later, but not in for now.
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Theo also, I think, doesn't like these huge setups :-\
Also, why is Robz on playerlist?
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Maybe I need to sit this one out. I'm, like, barely keeping up with the three games I'm in, not really spending any time here.
Maybe I'll reconsider later, but not in for now.
You shouldn't feel pressured to join if you're a bit burned out. However, I'm not the sort of mafia player who thinks everyone needs to be posting 100 times every day. Some people should take the lead and do that sometimes, and then other people at different times.
On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
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On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
(http://i.qkme.me/3qrxpl.jpg)
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On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
[somememe]
WHAT is that meme you keep posting it and its the only one I haven't seen anywhere else
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On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
(http://i.qkme.me/3qrxpl.jpg)
All the wine is poisoned.
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I'ts his own "Scumbad Vizzini"
I mean, here it is:
http://www.quickmeme.com/Scumbag-Vizzini/?upcoming
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I'ts his own "Scumbad Vizzini"
I mean, here it is:
http://www.quickmeme.com/Scumbag-Vizzini/?upcoming
To be 100% clear: I didn't make this meme. I found it on Quickmeme, having been used exactly once, decided "this is the archetypical bastard/troll mod," and swiftly appropriated it :)
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On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
{Scumbag Vizzini}
(http://i.qkme.me/3qrxve.jpg)
Fix'd
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Vizzini in the scene depicted is the origin of the (much overused) term WIFOM, so there's that connection.
Actually if you haven't seen The Princess Bride, please stop everything you're doing and go do so. Then read the book.
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Maybe I need to sit this one out. I'm, like, barely keeping up with the three games I'm in, not really spending any time here.
Maybe I'll reconsider later, but not in for now.
You shouldn't feel pressured to join if you're a bit burned out. However, I'm not the sort of mafia player who thinks everyone needs to be posting 100 times every day. Some people should take the lead and do that sometimes, and then other people at different times.
On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
Ok fine, fine, I'm still /in
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Maybe I need to sit this one out. I'm, like, barely keeping up with the three games I'm in, not really spending any time here.
Maybe I'll reconsider later, but not in for now.
You shouldn't feel pressured to join if you're a bit burned out. However, I'm not the sort of mafia player who thinks everyone needs to be posting 100 times every day. Some people should take the lead and do that sometimes, and then other people at different times.
On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
Ok fine, fine, I'm still /in
Yes!
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On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
{Scumbag Vizzini}
(http://i.qkme.me/3qrxve.jpg)
Fix'd
Yeah Westley really should be the mod, shouldn't he?
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On a side note, you will WISH you were in this game. It will be awesome.
{Scumbag Vizzini}
(http://i.qkme.me/3qrxve.jpg)
Fix'd
Yeah Westley really should be the mod, shouldn't he?
What? Who is this Westley you speak of? That dashing devil is the Dread Pirate Roberts.
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Another veteran I was hoping to get (who hasn't yet appeared in this thread) is Mr. Ehunt. You interested, my friend? Robz invites you to the Courtyard Masquerade.
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/out please.
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/out please.
Sorry to see you go!
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These big games are too much of a time investment. I'll probably sign up for the next small game.
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Another veteran I was hoping to get (who hasn't yet appeared in this thread) is Mr. Ehunt. You interested, my friend? Robz invites you to the Courtyard Masquerade.
Thanks for the invitation - I need some time off from mafia for now, so I'm out.
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why am i "likely"? I'm playing!
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why am i "likely"? I'm playing!
once my mafia game is over, in.
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why am i "likely"? I'm playing!
once my mafia game is over, in.
Yeah...erm...my mafia game has been over for days.
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Yeah...erm...my mafia game has been over for days.
What I mean is that you were originally likely and it wasn't changed.
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Oh wow! There are many people playing, I'd rather stick to the smaller games. I should also be focusing on seminars instead of Mafia ;D
/out
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That's 2 completed games now, of the 3 required. We're that much closer to starting this up!
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Well, think im in
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I dropped Archetype and added Watno. Welcome!
We will wait for MVIII to conclude, at the least.
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MXI is almost done...
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ALRIGHT. FINE.
/in.
But it better be worth it!
With both M-VIII and M-IX winding down, and being out of BRMM now, my games are finally thinning out some. Hopefully that'll free me up some.
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Galzria, I am so happy to welcome you to the Courtyard Masquerade! I promise, it won't disappoint...
With MVIII and MIX so close to the end, I expect to send invitations quite soon...
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Oh forum mafia - i can't stay mad at you forever.
/in
I'm not going to play this as actively as other threads - so when I flip town you'll all be sorry.
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Oh forum mafia - i can't stay mad at you forever.
/in
I'm not going to play this as actively as other threads - so when I flip town you'll all be sorry.
Robz is so pleased you will be able to join his other friends in the Courtyard Masquerade.
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NOTE: Signups for this game will be closed Thursday at 3:00 PM (EDT). If you plan to attend the Courtyard Masquerade, you must say so in this thread before 3:00 PM.
In all likelihood, the game will begin next week.
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Robz, are you going to give us a possible role list? It might be best to do this before roles are sent out, and would help to make this a more newbie-friendly game.
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Robz, are you going to give us a possible role list? It might be best to do this before roles are sent out, and would help to make this a more newbie-friendly game.
Thank you for reminding me. I will post a list of roles, shots, and modifiers that could appear in the game.
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In, obviously.
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In, obviously.
Glad to hear it!
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This thing is massive. Going to be seriously, seriously difficult to lynch early on - and if O's game was any indication it's going to be hell tracking votes. You'll have your work cut out for yourself Robz.
Man, I'm really going to have to take an active backseat here, and try to cut down on noise.
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The less noise the better! I will be busy and coming home to 3+ pages of text will not be the most inviting thing ever! We don't necessarily need someone to be leading the discussion, because there will be enough people that infrequent posting from most will be sufficient. (Though it is hard to get reads on people that way)
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I am aware of these problems, and I believe the setup I have devised will account for them, but we shall see!
And I am more than up to the challenge of posting correct vote totals. I love and want constant vote totals. Expect them.
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I am aware of these problems, and I believe the setup I have devised will account for them, but we shall see!
And I am more than up to the challenge of posting correct vote totals. I love and want constant vote totals. Expect them.
At any given time, half the players have a Mute post restriction.
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The less noise the better! I will be busy and coming home to 3+ pages of text will not be the most inviting thing ever! We don't necessarily need someone to be leading the discussion, because there will be enough people that infrequent posting from most will be sufficient. (Though it is hard to get reads on people that way)
D1 of M-VI, which had only 19 players, lasted 86 pages and 2,100+ posts. ;D This game has 5 more players to add to the mix. I recommend only being in this one game until at least D3 unless you're truly crazy. :P
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I am aware of these problems, and I believe the setup I have devised will account for them, but we shall see!
And I am more than up to the challenge of posting correct vote totals. I love and want constant vote totals. Expect them.
At any given time, half the players have a Mute post restriction.
Half the players will be OSWDV, and the other half will be Suicidal after X irl days.
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I am aware of these problems, and I believe the setup I have devised will account for them, but we shall see!
And I am more than up to the challenge of posting correct vote totals. I love and want constant vote totals. Expect them.
At any given time, half the players have a Mute post restriction.
Half the players will be OSWDV, and the other half will be Suicidal after X irl days.
Can't figure out what the D is there.
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I recommend only being in this one game until at least D3 unless you're truly crazy. :P
Watch me.
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I am aware of these problems, and I believe the setup I have devised will account for them, but we shall see!
And I am more than up to the challenge of posting correct vote totals. I love and want constant vote totals. Expect them.
At any given time, half the players have a Mute post restriction.
Half the players will be OSWDV, and the other half will be Suicidal after X irl days.
Can't figure out what the D is there.
Day!
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I recommend only being in this one game until at least D3 unless you're truly crazy. :P
Watch me.
Heh. I won't argue that we do have a handful of players who just ARE that crazy... :P
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Hmm. Heads up I will be V/LA from Friday to Sunday, which I didn't think would be an issue since I didn't think this was starting so soon. I might miss the first real-life day or so of D1, not sure on the exact timeline.
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Hmm. Heads up I will be V/LA from Friday to Sunday, which I didn't think would be an issue since I didn't think this was starting so soon. I might miss the first real-life day or so of D1, not sure on the exact timeline.
No worries. We're great at stalling days here, so you won't miss too much excitement. Just a 24 player RVS.
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There's no way I can commit to reading the 8 million posts this game will generate and actually play it. Send me the QT though.
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To maintain my sanity, in the first few days of the game, I am only going to post to this thing once per day, beginning reading around 4 PM EST and posting a mega-post around 5, except possibly changing a vote near a deadline if necessary. I will do this EVEN IF I am on the hot seat. I will not phone-post, nor phone-browse, this forum. All of these behaviors are designed to help me continue to be productive IRL; I am aware that they will be mildly harmful to whichever team I am on, but I don't think I can play without these restrictions. (I am posting this before receiving a role PM so that my change in behavior is not interpreted as scummy.)
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To maintain my sanity, in the first few days of the game, I am only going to post to this thing once per day, beginning reading around 4 PM EST and posting a mega-post around 5, except possibly changing a vote near a deadline if necessary. I will do this EVEN IF I am on the hot seat. I will not phone-post, nor phone-browse, this forum. All of these behaviors are designed to help me continue to be productive IRL; I am aware that they will be mildly harmful to whichever team I am on, but I don't think I can play without these restrictions. (I am posting this before receiving a role PM so that my change in behavior is not interpreted as scummy.)
I feel similarly. I'll probably post more than I intend to anyway, but I intend to lurk more and let others do the talking. I am usually over-active anyway.
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and like myself neither of you will follow that rule.
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So much pre-game talk. So little actual playing.
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I would follow that rule, but my role PM will include a "restriction" to maintain a higher average than 1 post/hr. I'll also be forced to vote in my first 3 posts each day.
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My post restriction will probably put each post at a maximum of 3 sentences; no double posting allowed.
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My post restriction will be
"Sometime day 1 you have to tell everyone you suck at day 1"
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Sign ups will close in 15 minutes. Get in now or forever regret missing out!
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Sign ups will close in 15 minutes. Get in now or forever regret missing out!
send me my role pm early, I'm gettin antsy
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I died just in time in BMV for this to start. Good timing. (/in)
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/in, since I died everywhere else!
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/in
... what?
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/in
... what?
It's really happening.
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I'm actually going to hydra with Axxle2 this game if that's ok with everyone.
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I'm actually going to hydra with Axxle2 this game if that's ok with everyone.
/already accounted for in setup, obviously
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I haven't received my PM yet. You're late. /failmod
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I haven't received my PM yet. You're late. /failmod
Geez this game is gonna be just terrible.
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If this is the inevitable game where everyone gets a VT role, I will be highly amused.
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SIGNUPS ARE NOW CLOSED. THIS THREAD IS LOCKED.
In the coming days, the following things will happen:
- I will update the introductory post with a list of possible roles
- I will send role PMs
- The game will begin
Expect them.
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The introductory post has been updated with 3 things:
- A list of information each player will be given about himself.
- A list of all possible roles and modifiers. This is a near-exhaustive list, but obviously, not all of them will be present.
- The order of action resolution at night.
We will be using 2 week deadlines. Expect role PMs soon.
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For the modifiers, what does "Random" do? A quick-search of the MafiaWiki didn't tell me.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Percentage_Role ?
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prediction: gg, cultists
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Percentage_Role ?
This is correct.
NOW THREAD LOCKED!!!
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Wow RobZ - my role PM summed me up perfectly. Excellent Work - A+++ would buy again.
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Wow RobZ - my role PM summed me up perfectly. Excellent Work - A+++ would buy again.
U be trolling us?
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Wow RobZ - my role PM summed me up perfectly. Excellent Work - A+++ would buy again.
This is a lie. No role PMs yet. Busy day. Making some final tweaks to ensure balance. PMs coming soon. Expect them.
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Saw right through that Frisk, right through that.
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I SAID THREAD LOCKED!!!
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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PMs will be sent this afternoon, I promise.
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Role PMs have been sent. Please acknowledge confirmation of your role by PMing me, if you have not done so already.
The game will begin when everyone has confirmed.
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I'm confirming in thread because I play by my own rules!
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/conf gone til tomorrow morning
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Robz I hate you. >:( conf
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All of Robz's friends gathered in the Courtyard for a wonderful Masquerade party! Some were old friends, some were new, some were sneaking off into the shadows to plot and scheme and... murder?
"My friends!" said Robz. "Welcome! Welcome to the Courtyard Masquerade!"
And so they ate and drank and danced and gambled and laughed. But all the merriness gave way to confusion when a strange fact was realized: Where was Robz? He was nowhere to be found. And because Robz's friends knew each other as well as they knew themselves, the accusations began to fly...
As a reminder, here is a list of players and setup information:
0. Robz888 missing
1. Ftl
2. Voltgloss replaced by sparky5856
3. Eevee
4. Grujah
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah
9. Young Nick
10. Voltaire
11. Axxle
12. O
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. igbtennis
18. TheMunch
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon
21. Watno
22. Galzria
23. Captain_Frisk
24. ehunt
25. ashersky
Information on Setup
Each player will receive a role PM containing a great deal of categorized information. Here are the following things that every player will have:
Player Name: That’s you!
Alignment: There are only two possible alignments: Town and Scum. There may or may not be multiple Scum factions; however, all Scum, regardless of faction, are simply listed as Scum-aligned here (not “werewolf-aligned” or “serial killer-aligned,” for example).
Card: Each player will be dealt a card from Dominion. It doesn’t do anything; you just have it. You will not be told whether multiple people can have the same Card. Whether a player’s Card corresponds to anything else about him is for you to determine.
Role: This is the name that best matches whatever abilities you may possess. Since sources may differ on what exactly a given role does, and I may have made tweaks, please be sure to consult your Description and Abilities sections to make sure that your Role actually does what you think it does.
Description: Each player will receive a personalized paragraph that gives information about him. It may speak to his reputation as a Forum Mafia player, it may contain clues to his abilities or alignment, or it may be merely humorous.
Active Abilities: This section lists everything you are able to do. Read it carefully.
Passive Abilities: This section lists any other abilities you have that are used automatically. Separating each player’s abilities into an Active and Passive category is done for convenience of comprehension; there is no “in-game” reason to differentiate between them.
Win Condition: What you must do to win the game. The Town, for instance, has the following, familiar Win Condition: “You win when all scum-aligned players are dead.”
--
A List of Possible Role and Modifiers (For information on the roles listed below, go here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles)):
Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper, Roleblocker, Vigilante, Serial Killer, Werewolf, Mason, Neighbor, Lover, Watcher, Tracker, Ninja, Hider/Commuter, Miller, Bus Driver, Bodyguard, Lightning Rod, Doublevoter, Survivor, Backup, Godfather, Jack-of-All Trades, Innocent Child, Mailman, Inventor, Gunsmith, Redirector, Bomb, Cult, Framer, Lie Detector
Modifiers: X-shot, Insane, Paranoid, Naïve, Hated, Random, Post Restricted, Lynchproof, Bulletproof, Strong, Weak
Order of Night Resolution:
1. Items
2. Overriding powers
3. Roleblocking
4. Other actions
THREAD UNLOCKED -- THE GAME HAS BEGUN -- DAY 1 START
Additional announcement: Everyone confirmed receipt of their roles except Young Nick, who mentioned that he would be V/LA this week until the 20th. We will be using 2 week deadlines, so this is fine.
Lastly, as a reminder, YOU MAY NOT QUOTE MODERATOR-SUPPLIED INFORMATION, unless specifically told you may do so.
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First post, so who is up for RDS (Robz discussion stage) instead of RVS!
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First post, so who is up for RDS (Robz discussion stage) instead of RVS!
how do you mean?
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Like yuma, based on what Robz thinks of you I could see you having a untargetable or limit on how often you can post because Robz never notices you in games where your scum.
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He spelled "knew" as "new" twice in the opening flavor. Very unusual mistake from him. Was it on purpose?
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He spelled "knew" as "new" twice in the opening flavor. Very unusual mistake from him. Was it on purpose?
hmmm suspicion at the newbies then.... igbtennis, TheMunch, Watno....
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He spelled "knew" as "new" twice in the opening flavor. Very unusual mistake from him. Was it on purpose?
Careless haste that I have subsequently corrected. There is no information to be gained from flavor. Flavor is just flavor.
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Hm, turns out I don't know what Robz thinks of other players.
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Vote: Galzria
There's no way Robz put he and I on the same team.
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Vote: Galzria
There's no way Robz put he and I on the same team.
why not?
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Vote: Galzria
There's no way Robz put he and I on the same team.
Hmm...good point.
Vote: jotheonah
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Vote: Galzria
There's no way Robz put he and I on the same team.
Hmm...good point.
Vote: jotheonah
Wait, what?
vote: Dsell
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Vote: Galzria
There's no way Robz put he and I on the same team.
ObvSK.
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that woulda been fun, to be SK.
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SK-hunting during RVS, that's gotta be a scumtell right?
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Galz, are you a Miller?
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Yeah, I'm thinking this whole WWRD line of reasoning is a trap.
Like, take Galz for instance. He's been so many things in so many games, who knows what Robz thinks!
ppe: Volt, apparently
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Galz, are you a Miller?
Town that always appears scummy? Yes.
Miller? No.
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Voltgloss, I should say.
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Galz, are you a Miller?
Town that always appears scummy? Yes.
Miller? No.
If anyone's a miller, surely it's Morgrim.
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Galz, are you a Miller?
Town that always appears scummy? Yes.
Miller? No.
Lawls, I thought town-that-looks-scummy was me and eevee!
Oh hey is Morgrim in this game?
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Vote:Robz cause that is what I always do.
Town that always appears scummy? Yes.
Uh, that's me. Just ask anyone.
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Morgrim is in this game!
Policy vote: Morgrim
*ducks and covers*
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Morgrim is in this game!
Policy vote: Morgrim
*ducks and covers*
Stop it Fuzzy!
Oh wait, you're not Eevee...
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Hey Dsell, what was up with your jotheonah vote a few mins ago?
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Hey Dsell, what was up with your jotheonah vote a few mins ago?
Clearly working out BMV post-restriction rage. I'm surprised there aren't more votess on me in that vein. :P
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Hey Dsell, what was up with your jotheonah vote a few mins ago?
Clearly working out BMV post-restriction rage. I'm surprised there aren't more votess on me in that vein. :P
The odds say Galz is town! If jo is so convinced they're not on the same team, must mean jo is mafia! FOOLPROOF.
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Vote Count 1.1
Galzria (1) -- Jotheonah
Dsell (1) -- Cayvie
Morgrim7 (1) -- Dsell
Not Voting (22) -- Ftl, Voltgloss, Eevee, Grujah, Insomniac, Glooble, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, O, Shraeye, Cuzz, Yuma, igbtennis, TheMunch, Morgrim7, eHalcyon, Watno, Captain_Frisk, ehunt, ashersky
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT).
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##Is there a plurality rule for early day deadlines?##
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Welp, I'll see you guys after RVS.
Unvote
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Hey Dsell, what was up with your jotheonah vote a few mins ago?
Clearly working out BMV post-restriction rage. I'm surprised there aren't more votess on me in that vein. :P
The odds say Galz is town! If jo is so convinced they're not on the same team, must mean jo is mafia! FOOLPROOF.
I was actually thinking the exact same thing.
Vote: Jotheonah
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##Is there a plurality rule for early day deadlines?##
No. We will be using simple majority at all times. If no player receives 13 votes by the end of Day 1, we will have a No Lynch.
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Hey Dsell, what was up with your jotheonah vote a few mins ago?
Clearly working out BMV post-restriction rage. I'm surprised there aren't more votess on me in that vein. :P
The odds say Galz is town! If jo is so convinced they're not on the same team, must mean jo is mafia! FOOLPROOF.
I was actually thinking the exact same thing.
Vote: Jotheonah
...
you guys know this logic is terrible, right?
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Hey Dsell, what was up with your jotheonah vote a few mins ago?
Clearly working out BMV post-restriction rage. I'm surprised there aren't more votess on me in that vein. :P
The odds say Galz is town! If jo is so convinced they're not on the same team, must mean jo is mafia! FOOLPROOF.
I was actually thinking the exact same thing.
Vote: Jotheonah
...
you guys know this logic is terrible, right?
And yet it's the only logic we have.
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So. Huh. 13 to lynch.
That'll be... interesting.
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you guys forget, I've never ever been mafia in a normal game. Galz has.
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I've also never been lynched D1!
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I've also never been lynched D1!
Clearly you're unlynchable D1 in this game!
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Joth is fighting *way* too hard for just one vote on him.
Also:
They will be subtly based on aspects of players personalities. (For example, the following line of thinking will not work in this game: "Jotheonah has twice been the Serial Killer, so he's probably the Serial Killer in this game.") Furthermore, some roles and alignments WILL be determined randomly.
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you guys forget, I've never ever been mafia in a normal game. Galz has.
M-XI, my 9th regular Mafia game. In my first 8, I'm 7 town, 1 scum. Feels like I've been scum more, doesn't it? Just goes to prove my point about myself: "town that always appears scummy? Yes."
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you guys forget, I've never ever been mafia in a normal game. Galz has.
M-XI, my 9th regular Mafia game. In my first 8, I'm 7 town, 1 scum. Feels like I've been scum more, doesn't it? Just goes to prove my point about myself: "town that always appears scummy? Yes."
my meta for you is "terrible roles"
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you guys forget, I've never ever been mafia in a normal game. Galz has.
M-XI, my 9th regular Mafia game. In my first 8, I'm 7 town, 1 scum. Feels like I've been scum more, doesn't it? Just goes to prove my point about myself: "town that always appears scummy? Yes."
my meta for you is "terrible roles"
THIS. omg, this. And again: This.
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Cayvie has played in 2 games. Both town. She's been on two lynch wagons. Both against scum. Cayvie = IC with instincts like a hawk.
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you guys forget, I've never ever been mafia in a normal game. Galz has.
M-XI, my 9th regular Mafia game. In my first 8, I'm 7 town, 1 scum. Feels like I've been scum more, doesn't it? Just goes to prove my point about myself: "town that always appears scummy? Yes."
Does this mean we've almost always been on the same team when we've fought each other?
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In other news there are like umpteen million people in this game, and some of them are brand new to f.ds forum mafia. And some of them only played games I didn't read. So if you guys want to do the standard introduction, tell us how much mafia you've played/read and where, that would be helpful!
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you guys forget, I've never ever been mafia in a normal game. Galz has.
M-XI, my 9th regular Mafia game. In my first 8, I'm 7 town, 1 scum. Feels like I've been scum more, doesn't it? Just goes to prove my point about myself: "town that always appears scummy? Yes."
Does this mean we've almost always been on the same team when we've fought each other?
M-II: no
M-III: no
M-IV: yes
M-V: You were mod
M-VI: yes
M-VII: you didn't play
M-VIII: you didn't play
M-IX: you didn't play
M-X: neither of us played
M-XI: ???
So no, we're 50/50.
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In other news there are like umpteen million people in this game, and some of them are brand new to f.ds forum mafia. And some of them only played games I didn't read. So if you guys want to do the standard introduction, tell us how much mafia you've played/read and where, that would be helpful!
Actually, with that, I'm going to shut up for awhile and go get lunch. Let's get some new voices in here. This thread is already going to be impossible to keep up with.
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In other news there are like umpteen million people in this game, and some of them are brand new to f.ds forum mafia. And some of them only played games I didn't read. So if you guys want to do the standard introduction, tell us how much mafia you've played/read and where, that would be helpful!
Actually, with that, I'm going to shut up for awhile and go get lunch. Let's get some new voices in here. This thread is already going to be impossible to keep up with.
Seconded. Only replace lunch with nap.
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Looking over the player list, I see ibgtennis! Yay tennis! ObvIC, because tennis is awesome.
Vote: Dsell for Morgrim-hunting.
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Hey everyone.
First, Robz says very explicitly in the intro post that, although roles will be tweaked to personalities as exhibited in past mafia games, the probability that a given player is scum will not be. So most of the Robz-speculation is irrelevant. Moreover, anything we logic out will almost certainly help scum (who have more information) more than town. For example, if I logically deduce "there cannot be a tracker" but mafia knows that there is a tracker, then mafia will realize that the tracker isn't me, and it will make their hunt for power-roles either. So I'm not crazy about the Robz-speculation phase.
Second, I think Morgrim-hunting is a scumtell. Which is to say, vote: Dsell. I don't like how you characterized your vote as being a policy vote and then decided later that it was actually an RVS vote. ScumFrisk did exactly that in MIX (sadly, scumVoltgloss convinced a whole bunch of scum and a couple townies that Morgrim-hunting-hunting was the scumtell. Moral: Morgrim-hunting^n is a scumtell if and only if n is odd (n=0 is the case of just being Morgrim, which is neutral)).
Third, I want to encourage everyone to be very cautious about naming your card name or revealing anything about your card name (like if it is action, treasure, curse, etc.). As far as I can tell it doesn't function to provide "named townies" (since we are told it's possible for multiple folks to share a card). I am concerned that we will have a repeat of MIX, where there were scum power roles that benefitted from knowing names of cards (or, more accurately, suits). In particular, I think it's not best to reveal your card name even if you are at L - 1 since the card name does nothing to prove your alignment and may help scum, who have a lot more information.
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In particular, I think it's not best to reveal your card name even if you are at L - 1 since the card name does nothing to prove your alignment and may help scum, who have a lot more information.
I wonder how you come to know how much information the scum have. The absence of a "may" in that statement speaks volumes.
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Before I get called out for lurking I just wanna let people know I'm v/la all weekend (phone posting atm but won't have too much opportunity for that). Hopefully won't go the way of pps D1 of BMV. See you Monday afternoon.
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In particular, I think it's not best to reveal your card name even if you are at L - 1 since the card name does nothing to prove your alignment and may help scum, who have a lot more information.
I wonder how you come to know how much information the scum have. The absence of a "may" in that statement speaks volumes.
Mafia: an informed minority vs. an uninformed majority.
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Second, I think Morgrim-hunting is a scumtell. Which is to say, vote: Dsell. I don't like how you characterized your vote as being a policy vote and then decided later that it was actually an RVS vote. ScumFrisk did exactly that in MIX (sadly, scumVoltgloss convinced a whole bunch of scum and a couple townies that Morgrim-hunting-hunting was the scumtell. Moral: Morgrim-hunting^n is a scumtell if and only if n is odd (n=0 is the case of just being Morgrim, which is neutral)).
Vote: DSell
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Before I get called out for lurking I just wanna let people know I'm v/la all weekend (phone posting atm but won't have too much opportunity for that). Hopefully won't go the way of pps D1 of BMV. See you Monday afternoon.
If you don't vote for yourself (twice!) you won't go the way of pps D1 of BMV.
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I do not consider my role to be reflective of my past games or my personality. Just throwing that out there.
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In other news there are like umpteen million people in this game, and some of them are brand new to f.ds forum mafia. And some of them only played games I didn't read. So if you guys want to do the standard introduction, tell us how much mafia you've played/read and where, that would be helpful!
Even though you probably read my game, since you modded it, I played quite a lot of (German) Mafia in a BSW forum a while ago.
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I have no post restrictions (seems like none of us have any?).
I'm drunk now so won't participate in the RVS I so hate until tomorrow (please let it be over by then!). I plan on playing an active game and being wrong all the time, so you'll all see more of me than you'd want.
One little bit of strategy advice for all townies (if you are scum, please don't
read forward!): Start taking notes NOW! I guarantee keeping up with a town this big will be impossible without constant and active notetaking. Seriously I really mean this. Do it.
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I have no post restrictions (seems like none of us have any?).
I'm drunk now so won't participate in the RVS I so hate until tomorrow (please let it be over by then!). I plan on playing an active game and being wrong all the time, so you'll all see more of me than you'd want.
One little bit of strategy advice for all townies (if you are scum, please don't
read forward!): Start taking notes NOW! I guarantee keeping up with a town this big will be impossible without constant and active notetaking. Seriously I really mean this. Do it.
Yeah that's probably a good idea. This game is one third again as large as the next largest game i've been in.
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Just finished a several games of Magic, I am getting way too hooked on that thing :P
I think there isn't that much to talk now, so, I think it is at least of some usefullness to get through everybody's meta, as it influences things. Here is what I think of everyone, sans any alignment/role bias (I.e. I don't considering Morg being VT often "a meta"):
1. Ftl - ugh... wagon-happy?
2. Voltgloss - Bossy, in-charge kinda guy, mysterious/hard to read.
3. Eevee - jokey, friendly attitude which tends to seem scummy to those who do not know him.
4. Grujah - hi! Somebody else do me.
5. Insomniac - Agressive, scummy at start, bad at surviving (usually gets shot)
6. Glooble - Lurky, shadowy.
7. Dsell - Calculated!
8. Jotheonah - not serious, aloof, light-hearted, distrusts elaborate defenses?
9. Young Nick - uh, no idea.
10. Voltaire - neither.
11. Axxle - helpful, experienced, bad at defending himself.
12. O - trolly, direct ?
13. Cayvie - agressive and kill-inviting, kinda like insomniac.
14. Shraeye - ugh.. longposty?
15. Cuzz - no idea.
16. Yuma - Shadowy, careful.
17. igbtennis - no idea.
18. TheMunch - no idea.
19. Morgrim7 - crazy like a fox, sheeps reads, hammers, though he improved recently and plays actually more normal now.
20. EHalcyon - Elaborate, friendly ?
21. Watno - no idea.
22. Galzria - confident, ugh.. I am not sure of the english word, but.. thorough-y? therille?
23. Captain_Frisk - Fakeclaim prone, i guess?
24. ehunt - theory prone, general statement making prone.
25. ashersky - no idea.
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Actually, Voltgloss is way more throughout/therille/whatever-the-word-i-want is than Galz, now that I think of it.
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Actually, Voltgloss is way more throughout/therille/whatever-the-word-i-want is than Galz, now that I think of it.
Thorough?
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What I mean by that is..
He goes to read things that happened and reads everything and considers everything and so. Maybe that goes under elaborate as well.
Also, Volt is against no-lynch, thats he's meta too.
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My meta definitely should include my naivety (=the tendency of automatically trusting anyone who bothers to make long posts and generally appears insightful). Also, regarding people always suspecting me, it's worth noting, I've played in every single game after mafia III (which was my first game) and I've been town in every game but that (not counting Frisk's bastard game because no one had any clue of what the heck was going on there). So, despite lots of people suspecting me in a lot of games, I've always been town! I actually think this is rather important.
Grujah's meta is a tough one.. I'd say it's mostly him being a bold but a skilled player. He played his role very well in major arcana, and surviving until the very end as lovers with morgrim in VI was quite impressive too. I'd say he is a bit like Insomniac andO in that after he picks a target, he isn't likely to change his mind.
I don't know if I should say this, but since if I'm right, scum will knowthis too, I will. I assume the veterans, such as Galzria, jotheonah, Insomniac and O (and others ofc, you know who you are) will have some sort of special roles. I can't see Robz making Galzria a VT for example. That either town power roles or scum.
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I don't know if I should say this, but since if I'm right, scum will knowthis too, I will. I assume the veterans, such as Galzria, jotheonah, Insomniac and O (and others ofc, you know who you are) will have some sort of special roles. I can't see Robz making Galzria a VT for example. That either town power roles or scum.
You have to wonder to if his anti-newbie stance will have carried over into this meta as well.
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You have to wonder to if his anti-newbie stance will have carried over into this meta as well.
Robz is never going to get to live down his taking the "when in doubt, lynch a newbie" approach in a newbie mafia game. :)
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All right hi guys.
First, I wanted to say that I had bet $5 on me having a vote before I arrived. -sigh-
Its still to early really to have a decent read, so not much to say. I also wanted to say that we should really get D1 going because I predict everyone will get strong reads on townies, some wagons will form, then diminish, and the scum get a nice cozy town lynch.
That being said, lets get started. I would like to FoS: everyone on the Dsell wagon. You all know that his vote for me was all in good fun, and he wasn't doing it out of true suspicion. You also know that the Dsell wagon
A) Probably isn't very smart
B) Probably isn't going to go over
C) Probably is not in the best interest of the town.
Yes, I know, D1 lynches usually are pretty random, but lets get som reads first.
Also, one more thing:
Don't throw votes around lightly. Its annoying to the mod, and without purpose, those votes don't help the town. And for sake of sanity and because I don't want to wake up with 15 pages to read, lets nix the fluff and nutter, and only say things that you think will contribute to a town win (scum may do otherwise, as it is probably in their best intrest. I have never been scum, so I don't know…mafia pros, come and help me out here :) ). Because, a town win is the object of the game, right?
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Galz's meta is the he likes to run the town, whether as town or mafia. Posts a lot. I can't read him at all.
Voltgloss always has these careful, calculating posts as scum. I don't actually know his town meta, he was scum in the games in which I remember him most (MIX and BMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM)
I like to think I can read Morg pretty well, though so far it's been pretty easy because every single game he's been town and I've always gone "DON'T LYNCH MORG HE'S PLAYING LIKE HE ALWAYS PLAYS TOWN" but one of these days he'll be scum and catch everyone off-guard...
I remember scum O using his usual "I'm O!!" to justify really scummy votes, but I guess he plays like that as town, too.
"Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." <--ugggg this game is going to be like this the entire time
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[...]
Don't throw votes around lightly. Its annoying to the mod, and without purpose, those votes don't help the town. And for sake of sanity and because I don't want to wake up with 15 pages to read, lets nix the fluff and nutter, and only say things that you think will contribute to a town win (scum may do otherwise, as it is probably in their best intrest. I have never been scum, so I don't know…mafia pros, come and help me out here :) ). Because, a town win is the object of the game, right?
You need advice on how to play as scum? Also, are you someone else than the Morgrim who played in previous games?
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SK-hunting during RVS, that's gotta be a scumtell right?
Wait, I'm pretty sure that SK-hunting-hunting is a scumtell. O and ehunt both told me so.
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Sure, here's mine.
1. Ftl - Somehow manages to stay behind the scenes while saying substance. Not sure how.
2. Voltgloss - Scheming as scum. Not sure I've ever seen you as town.
3. Eevee - Impossible to read. Always very friendly. Have I seen you as scum?
4. Grujah - Hates Morgrim.
5. Insomniac - Alternates between wildly irrational and insightful, whether town or scum. I don't understand how your brain works, Ins ;)
6. Glooble - Lurkerscum. Never seen you as town.
7. Dsell - Kinda deadpan.
8. Jotheonah - Very excited when he thinks he's caught scum.
9. Young Nick - none
10. Voltaire - none
11. Axxle - Perceptive but bad at rhetoric. I don't know you as scum.
12. O - Dangerous. The hardest player to read.
13. Cayvie - Best player, always obvtown.
14. Shraeye - good reads as town.
15. Cuzz - none really. Kinda lurkerscum.
16. Yuma - I think your reputation preceded you for me. I am always worried that you'll turn out to be scum, and you're town.
17. igbtennis - none
18. TheMunch - none
19. Morgrim7 - To stereotype, ADHD. More careful when he has a power role? Or maybe just more careful recently?
20. EHalcyon - uff. What, we were in VI together? And you died real fast? Idk.
21. Watno - very cautious as town.
22. Galzria - Lies well. Very good reads. Slightly overconfident/blustery as scum.
23. Captain_Frisk - Excellent as town, gets caught as scum.
24. ehunt - Good instincts as town, but doesn't trust them enough.
25. ashersky - none
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Oh yeah, at one point Frisk tended to make a lot of snarky side comments as scum. I think he's changed that up as of MIX, though.
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Imma interrupt the meta-reads everyone is giving. How is any of this useful at all?
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Imma interrupt the meta-reads everyone is giving. How is any of this useful at all?
I dunno but it's kinda fun to see what other people think of my playstyle. ;D
But seriously I don't see how this helps much.
I selfishly like and agree with what morgrim said about my wagon, but I've said before that whenever morgrim looks town he's obvscum. Anyway it's really too early to tell anything. It's a horrible Pandora's box in a game this size, but I do wish there was more conversation happening in here. Idk if there's enough here to really be suspicious of anyone but there's definitely some stuff to discuss.
Such as, me? Deadpan? Naaaaah... :P
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Also it's really true that I was extremely calculating as scum (I was in my second and third games, MIV and RMM1, respectively), but in a game this size there's too much content to analyze everything. I'm going to have to trust reads a bit more and look at specifics rather than the whole big picture, at least on day 1 and 2.
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[...]
Don't throw votes around lightly. Its annoying to the mod, and without purpose, those votes don't help the town. And for sake of sanity and because I don't want to wake up with 15 pages to read, lets nix the fluff and nutter, and only say things that you think will contribute to a town win (scum may do otherwise, as it is probably in their best intrest. I have never been scum, so I don't know…mafia pros, come and help me out here :) ). Because, a town win is the object of the game, right?
You need advice on how to play as scum? Also, are you someone else than the Morgrim who played in previous games?
I have never been scum.
People on the Dsell wagon, please unvote. And Dsell, you should to.
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Don't throw votes around lightly. Its annoying to the mod, and without purpose, those votes don't help the town. And for sake of sanity and because I don't want to wake up with 15 pages to read, lets nix the fluff and nutter, and only say things that you think will contribute to a town win (scum may do otherwise, as it is probably in their best intrest. I have never been scum, so I don't know…mafia pros, come and help me out here :) ). Because, a town win is the object of the game, right?
why should they unvote? voting is how you make your voice heard in this game. Yes rvs is silly and not necessary but it is part of the game! as for the votes being annoying for robz... he is on often enough to stay on top of them, vote counting is part of being a mod. Robz knows this. If you don't like counting votes don't be a mod.
Being stingy with your vote in this game will result in one thing. A no-lynch. That didn't work in mviii and I doubt it would work here.
You need advice on how to play as scum? Also, are you someone else than the Morgrim who played in previous games?
I have never been scum.
People on the Dsell wagon, please unvote. And Dsell, you should to.
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Ug... Messed up with the quote. You guys can figure out what I was trying to say
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Vote: Dsell
just to annoy Morgrim. also what if this is how scum Morgrim plays - gets absurdly defensive of his scumbuddy lauhgably early in the game? Food for thought.
But actually, Unvote.
I'm not making a meta list - it would take forever and accomplish very little. But I'm loving people's reads on me. @cayvie, damn right I get excited when I catch scum.
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Vote Count 1.2
Dsell (5) -- Cayvie, ftl, ehunt, Axxle
Not Voting (21) -- Voltgloss, Eevee, Grujah, Insomniac, Glooble, Young Nick, Voltaire, O, Shraeye, Cuzz, Yuma, igbtennis, TheMunch, Morgrim7, eHalcyon, Watno, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, Galzria, Jotheonah, Dsell
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is that a typo? (4 with 3 names)
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is that a typo? (4 with 3 names)
It is going to be a little difficult to keep track of Vote Counts--which is why I plan to do them frequently--and people should call attention to things they perceive to be errors, because it is likely that errors will occur.
That said, Vote Count 1.2 is accurate.
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6. Glooble - Lurkerscum. Never seen you as town.
Never been town! I was SK in O's game, though, which is kind of like being town in that you are legitimately trying to scum-hunt. Anyway, I've been at work all day. I'm not sure this analysis of other people's metas is all that helpful though.
This is, btw, a ridiculous number of people. It's going to be damn easy for scum to hide by lurking.
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All right hi guys.
First, I wanted to say that I had bet $5 on me having a vote before I arrived. -sigh-
Its still to early really to have a decent read, so not much to say. I also wanted to say that we should really get D1 going because I predict everyone will get strong reads on townies, some wagons will form, then diminish, and the scum get a nice cozy town lynch.
That being said, lets get started. I would like to FoS: everyone on the Dsell wagon. You all know that his vote for me was all in good fun, and he wasn't doing it out of true suspicion. You also know that the Dsell wagon
A) Probably isn't very smart
B) Probably isn't going to go over
C) Probably is not in the best interest of the town.
Yes, I know, D1 lynches usually are pretty random, but lets get som reads first.
Also, one more thing:
Don't throw votes around lightly. Its annoying to the mod, and without purpose, those votes don't help the town. And for sake of sanity and because I don't want to wake up with 15 pages to read, lets nix the fluff and nutter, and only say things that you think will contribute to a town win (scum may do otherwise, as it is probably in their best intrest. I have never been scum, so I don't know…mafia pros, come and help me out here :) ). Because, a town win is the object of the game, right?
Right, so let me get this straight. You show up and see 4 people (4, right? sometimes I can't count) on DSell. Then call this a wagon and FoS everyone on it even though it will take 13 to lynch. Yeah, that's a real clever scum-play to go out and stack votes on a random person, hoping that 9 more people will join in despite nobody giving any serious arguments agaisnt DSell.
Also, you simultaneously want people to only post when they have useful information to contribute, and say that because it's Day 1 there are no decent reads and there isn't much to say. So what you're saying is "pretty please everyone just stay quiet until the deadline so I can NK some town."
I think I just got my first read. I'm not going to say who it is, but I'll tell you who it isn't: everyone but Morgrim.
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All right hi guys.
First, I wanted to say that I had bet $5 on me having a vote before I arrived. -sigh-
Its still to early really to have a decent read, so not much to say. I also wanted to say that we should really get D1 going because I predict everyone will get strong reads on townies, some wagons will form, then diminish, and the scum get a nice cozy town lynch.
That being said, lets get started. I would like to FoS: everyone on the Dsell wagon. You all know that his vote for me was all in good fun, and he wasn't doing it out of true suspicion. You also know that the Dsell wagon
A) Probably isn't very smart
B) Probably isn't going to go over
C) Probably is not in the best interest of the town.
Yes, I know, D1 lynches usually are pretty random, but lets get som reads first.
Also, one more thing:
Don't throw votes around lightly. Its annoying to the mod, and without purpose, those votes don't help the town. And for sake of sanity and because I don't want to wake up with 15 pages to read, lets nix the fluff and nutter, and only say things that you think will contribute to a town win (scum may do otherwise, as it is probably in their best intrest. I have never been scum, so I don't know…mafia pros, come and help me out here :) ). Because, a town win is the object of the game, right?
Morgrim isn't acting crazy enough.
FOS: Morgrim
Seriously, I don't remember him ever making such a long post in Mafia. Has he been this wordy in games I haven't followed?
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This is, btw, a ridiculous number of people. It's going to be damn easy for scum to hide by lurking.
yeeeeah, that could be true. Voting records are a must. I don't have the time to compile one for this game, but would be deeply grateful to anyone who does.
I'm going to hold off on posting more unless a response is required for the rest of this evening. I want to wait for some of the players I don't even know to post some things.
Munch, igbtennis, YouNgick, voltaire. Frisk and O, I know ya, but it'd still be nice to hear things from y'all.
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Asking to hear things from new players is a scumtell.
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WTF at that votecount! A doublevoter on the wagon already?
unvote
Can we get another votecount as people unvote individually, robz? :) Unless it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, then we won't catch him this way.
eHalc: morgrim started posting more reasonably in MIX, where he actually posted and scumhunted during the day. Of course, his choice of nightkills was still...questionable... but still. I do not thing morgrim posting long things and trying to scumhunt is a scumtell.
Nor is wanting to hear from new players, Munch.
I have to say, in joth's BM, f.ds meta really pissed me off. Mid-day on that game, when a wagon was forming on me, robz basically told me to lurk and stop posting. And I did, and the wagon just went away and some random townie got lynched. I hated that, though it worked. I'm going to srsly push for lynching lurkers because that meta, just, ugh. Not posting should *not* be safe.
so Vote: YoungNick
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oh, wait, unvote , young nick is v/la
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vote: igbtennis
Because despite being obviously awesome for having tennis in your name, you haven't posted yet
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Can we get another votecount as people unvote individually, robz? :)
Generally speaking, I will not provide vote counts each and every time a person changes his vote. However, I see no reason not to provide a new vote count whenever I am specifically asked to do so, as I was here.
Vote Count 1.3
Dsell (4) -- Cayvie, ehunt, Axxle
igbtennis (1) -- ftl
Not Voting (21) -- Voltgloss, Eevee, Grujah, Insomniac, Glooble, Young Nick, Voltaire, O, Shraeye, Cuzz, Yuma, igbtennis, TheMunch, Morgrim7, eHalcyon, Watno, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, Galzria, Jotheonah, Dsell
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Asking to hear things from new players is a scumtell.
Sooooo not impressed by this.
Vote: TheMunch
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ok now one of cayvie or axxle should unvote and the other should keep their vote there and we'll catch a doublevoter?
Dunno, that would almost be too easy, both cayvie and axxle would know better than to use that immediately...
I bet it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, unless one of them has a mandatory doublevote that they don't know about themselves...
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ok now one of cayvie or axxle should unvote and the other should keep their vote there and we'll catch a doublevoter?
Dunno, that would almost be too easy, both cayvie and axxle would know better than to use that immediately...
I bet it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, unless one of them has a mandatory doublevote that they don't know about themselves...
Why do you want to catch the double voter (assuming not secret voter)? He's just as likely to be town as scum, and if the former then he'll become a major night target.
And yeah, I think secret voter is more likely.
Re: vote counts, the way to break this and annoy Robz is to ask for a vote count whenever you vote or unvote. ;)
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how is it protown to be using your secret vote during RVS?
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Wait, there are town doublevoters? I didn't know that, I assumed it was a scum role... I guess I was just basing that off joth's BM so I shouldn't draw any conclusions from that.
Anyway, we should know that L-2 is the new L-1 and so on.
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I know I am already breaking my posting only once a day rule, but I've had a couple (not a lot of) drinks and
Robz: I am confused. I voted for DSell earlier but have never been added to the official vote count. Also, the number of the vote doesn't match the number of voters listed next to him, a fact of which you seem to be aware but have not acknowledge awareness explicitly. What gives?
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how is it protown to be using your secret vote during RVS?
If it's a double vote, it could be passive. If it's a secret vote, maybe someone really, really thinks that Dsell is scum? Or they figure that it's safe to throw around a secret vote, whatever. Or it might not be a double vote or a secret vote but something else entirely that we're overlooking.
Since this isn't role madness, I do consider rolefishing to be scummy.
@ftl, Robz was a town secret voter in RMMI. And how do you know that there was a scum doublevoter in BMV? Unless you were involved. :P But the game is on-going so we shouldn't talk about it.
PPE: ehunt is... hidden vote? Or something?
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I know I am already breaking my posting only once a day rule, but I've had a couple (not a lot of) drinks and
Robz: I am confused. I voted for DSell earlier but have never been added to the official vote count. Also, the number of the vote doesn't match the number of voters listed next to him, a fact of which you seem to be aware but have not acknowledge awareness explicitly. What gives?
Ehunt, I missed your vote entirely. I just looked back and found it. The fact that you had a series of bold and unbolded phrases in your post caused me to miss it. My fault! I CORRECTED THE PREVIOUS TWO VOTE COUNTS. All of them should now be accurate. I will scan for votes more carefully next time.
I am aware that the number of votes doesn't match. There is no mistake to fix there. The fact that your vote was erroneously missing had nothing to do with it.
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PPE: ehunt is... hidden vote? Or something?
So there's no confusion (too late!), ehunt's vote was not being counted at all. I had simply overlooked it. I went back and modified the previous two vote counts to include ehunt's vote.
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Imma interrupt the meta-reads everyone is giving. How is any of this useful at all?
Talking is good.
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Theres just sooo many people. Vote: igbtennis he hasn't come around yet. Get in here guy!
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I have to say, in joth's BM, f.ds meta really pissed me off. Mid-day on that game, when a wagon was forming on me, robz basically told me to lurk and stop posting. And I did, and the wagon just went away and some random townie got lynched. I hated that, though it worked. I'm going to srsly push for lynching lurkers because that meta, just, ugh. Not posting should *not* be safe.
Yeah, we almost had you!
[/illegaldiscussion]
On that note you seem a little better in this game.
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unvote
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unvote
Clearly you were blown away by the sheer level of townieness in my last post.
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Pretty much!
nah, someone just suggested I unvote because the votes on you are weird.
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Wait, there are town doublevoters? I didn't know that, I assumed it was a scum role... I guess I was just basing that off joth's BM so I shouldn't draw any conclusions from that.
Anyway, we should know that L-2 is the new L-1 and so on.
i was a double voting jester/town hybrid in rmmii fwiw.
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@cayvie
Nope. Unless you read MIII, you haven't seen me play scum. I seem to be very very skilled at drawing town roles, I must have played more than 10 games after that, always being town.
@Dsell
How can a towny-looking Morgrim "always be obvscum" if morgrim has never been scum? Uh?
I just want to say, much to your surprise I guess, I wholeheartedly oppose the idea of policylynching Morgrim today. In fact, at least for now, I'm opposed to lynching Morgrim at all. Also dislike lynching Dsell or ftl.
Whilst I can sympathize with not burdening Robz with excessive voting, in general voting is very very pro town! If you are a townie who plans on being cautious with your vote, please don't. Mafia wants to avoid picking sides and to vote as little as possible, don't make it easy for them! Active voting either forces mafia to never vote for their own (suspicious) or risk accidentally forming a wagon on their own (great for town). Also, later when we read back in light of new flips, votes are going to be the most informational thing because talk is cheap. So yay voting yay!
I currently have no suspicions (and, quite frankly, I don't see scum horribly slipping very likely). Today we should probably attempt to lynch someone who a) isn't super important to town (if town) b) would be an informational flip c) is suspected for scummy voting positions. Lets not go after the first guy who gets up to 6 votes because of some pseudo-slip like we usually do, we all know how that would work out.
Also, ftl's point was an excellent one. This forum tends to want lynch active players for slips that weren't really slips. I think "when facing heat, just shut the hell up and it will go away" is a terrible meta for us as a forum, so we should really work on that.
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eHal, why are you asking me to be crazy? Do you enjoy that? If you do, then you are just as blatantly antitown as I was, and therefore deserve to he lynched.
Also, I got a bad read for not wanting to read a bunch of useless fluff every morning (which is highly likely considering the size of this town) and because I thought the Dsell -insert synonym for wagon here- was stupid?
I see your point, the town is huge and 4 people out of 13 to lynch is hardly big enough, but how does it help the town? Simple answer: IT DOESN'T.
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Oh so you weren't softclaiming having information about Dsell then?
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4. Grujah - Hates Morgrim.
OMG, where did you get this from?
I've never even voted Morgrim aside from that Frisk's silly BMV. (ok, it is true that he was conf townie to me once, but I didn't go against him at all in IX, for example). I just didn't udnerstand his game from before, but aside from that, I like the guy.
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Oh so you weren't softclaiming having information about Dsell then?
No. I know nothing of Dsell.
4. Grujah - Hates Morgrim.
OMG, where did you get this from?
I've never even voted Morgrim aside from that Frisk's silly BMV. (ok, it is true that he was conf townie to me once, but I didn't go against him at all in IX, for example). I just didn't udnerstand his game from before, but aside from that, I like the guy.
Thank you! :)
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I don't think Morgrim7's playstyle here is an improvement. FoSsing an entire wagon without really explaining it? It really does seem like he's covering for Dsell. Of course it's absurd to be looking for teams this early.
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Wait, there are town doublevoters? I didn't know that, I assumed it was a scum role... I guess I was just basing that off joth's BM so I shouldn't draw any conclusions from that.
Anyway, we should know that L-2 is the new L-1 and so on.
Remind me you said this when I make the BMV PMs public.
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FOS Everyone for starting the game on a weekend. I'm already 150 posts behind. Haven't read anything - might be able to do so during Sunday Night Football.
Fly Eagles Fly!
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Hi all, just wanted to drop in and say I'm not acti-lurking, just doing regular weekend life stuff, and trying to keep up.
I will mention Eevee is the same ole Eevee, Morgrim a very new Morgrim (liking it!), and the rest of you are still unmolded clay. I noticed talk of cards started and stopped very quickly; I think it's for the best to leave that to subsequent days.
In my limited forum games experience, D1 lynches are a crapshoot at best, a sad affair at worst. We can't even figure out our random chances of hitting scum today, since it isn't the normal 2/X where X is the number of players other than myself, what with the closed set up. So Eevee's vote loud and vote often (I almost typed Volt loud, Volt often!) may or may not be a good policy, but for the record I don't see that suggestion (from him) as scummy.
I'm not hedging, it's day one, so stop thinking that. Just trying to find the best (read: townie) way to do a D1, since we don't seem to have figured it out as a community quite yet.
Also, Vote: Galzria as RVS and OMGUS from Blitz.
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So maybe I am just incredibly naive but I just dont understand the RVS as a concept. If the goal during the day is for town people to make good decisions and scum to make "bad" ones then having a RVS stage should, in my mind, only be backed by two kinds of people: lazy town and overeager scum. Both of these kinds of players are ones I wouldn't want to see around.
Imma interrupt the meta-reads everyone is giving. How is any of this useful at all?
Talking is good.
I agree with Cayvie here. For the people that are giving meta information, I could care less how players played in previous games. Anyone can change their playstyle at any minute and does not come with any value. But for the people that are giving such meta information, it can give insight into potentially what they care about from other players in other games, giving some kind of insight into their scum/protown leaning. Not sure; dont have anything conclusive yet but talking is better than RSV.
Vote: ashersky
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Rvs is silly, but you have to start the game somehow. It provides a way for town to get their feet wet, become aquainted with other players and eventually start talking about the game itself, which we are so good.
And from my pov talking is good because each time a mafia player posts they have to make a choice 1. Post content 2. Post fluff. If they continue to post fluff an observent town will notice that and call them out on it. If it is content, each time they post is a time where they might make a mistake: slip, tell a lie, contradict themselves, etc. The more you post the more content there is to analyze later.
I think that is why people have such a hard time reading me. I post less than others, regardless of my alignment, but it is something I am trying to increase in previous game failed, but hopefully can post more in this one.
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Vote Count 1.4
Dsell (3) -- ehunt, Axxle
igbtennis (2) -- ftl, Insomniac
TheMunch (1) -- Jotheonah
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
ashersky (1) -- TheMunch
Not Voting (18) -- Voltgloss, Eevee, Grujah, Glooble, Young Nick, Voltaire, O, Shraeye, Cuzz, Yuma, igbtennis, Morgrim7, eHalcyon, Watno, Captain_Frisk, Galzria, Dsell, Cayvie
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch.
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can we get mod-prods on O and igbtennis?
So my post for the day:
1. I was very explicit yesterday that I think speculation about what roles Robz has given out based on our knowledge of the personalities of others is a bad idea. It just gives scum way more information than town. I think I made this argument well and I haven't read an answer*. I am annoyed that this point was ignored. If you are going to continue this practice, you need to answer my arguments first. A couple posts yesterday seemed like straight-up rolefishing. In particular, if the scum is composed primarily of new people (or, if just one scumteam is, if there are multiple scumteams, or if there's a serial killer that's a new person) then thoughts along the lines of "Robz would definitely have given person so-and-so a power role" should not be vocalized. Yes, in theory, a smart mafia would be able to figure all this stuff out, and we all have access to the same information, but in practice, no one is going to read 10 mafia games to do it.
*well, actually, TheMunch defends the practice a little:
"For the people that are giving meta information, I could care less how players played in previous games. Anyone can change their playstyle at any minute and does not come with any value. But for the people that are giving such meta information, it can give insight into potentially what they care about from other players in other games, giving some kind of insight into their scum/protown leaning." ( a few posts ago)
Don't agree:
a. the reason people were speculating is because Robz explicitly said he would tailor roles to personalities, not because we want to know how people play.
b. Knowing "what does player x say player x cares about in player y" does not tell me about whether player x is scum, because if player x is scum, player x can just lie.
2. Jotheonah - it took all the restraint in my body not to respond to your post yesterday attacking me, but I'm glad I didn't because axxle made the explanation that I was going to make, but more succinctly. In this case, the "more information" scum has is that they know lots of card names, whereas townies only know their own.
Here's a hypothetical, imagine that Robz's rule was "having an action card means you are non-vanilla." A vanilla townie has no way of knowing this, and neither does a power role townie, because they can only see one card. But if there's a four person scumteam with a roleblocker and a godfather and they are silver, silver, witch, militia, well then, that scumteam's got a pretty good speculation that action cards match up with power roles. So the point is, if a townie's like "hmm, I am the cartographer, wonder why," the scum is like, sweet, good night-target. That's an example of why I said that nobody should share a card name.
3. To everyone else, I highly recommend the one-thorough-post-a-day strategy. (I know I failed at it myself last night, but I had to correct an error in the voting record, plus there's the genuinely confusing thing). I find that it enormously clarifies my thoughts when I'm not just sniping at everything I disagree with. I also think the noise in here is going to get unbearable (even though it's OK now). I would most like to vote for somebody noisy or for a lurker at the end of the day (I know these are opposites, in a way! By "noise" I mean useless content, not content).
As far as the genuinely confusing thing is concerned... speculation on it is probably unhealthy for town. Suffice it to say though that my case against DSell wasn't overwhelming and I think the genuinely confusing thing makes him look townier. So unvote.
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there's no such thing as useless content.
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For clarity, I'm pretty sure ehunt's "generally confusing thing" is referencing the invisible/extra/mystery vote on DSell, right? It was frustrating that he never actually named it in his post and just called it "the GCT." I don't think that a secret vote on DSell is any indication of towniness one way or the other. Totally neutral read on DSell because of that. I agree that wild speculation on why it was there or what it means is not useful. Here's what we townies take away from it: there is something unusual that can happen with votes, now we know about it and can account for it (hopefully).
Also,
Hi all, just wanted to drop in and say I'm not acti-lurking, just doing regular weekend life stuff, and trying to keep up.
I will mention Eevee is the same ole Eevee, Morgrim a very new Morgrim (liking it!), and the rest of you are still unmolded clay. I noticed talk of cards started and stopped very quickly; I think it's for the best to leave that to subsequent days.
Good, I was really worried you were "acti-lurking." Oh wait, no I wasn't, because that isn't a word. In more serious news, "talk of cards" never actually started; ehunt said "it's not a good thing to broadcast, don't do it." End of discussion. I suppose if I take "stopped very quickly" to mean instantly, you are right. Otherwise, you do not know what it means to start talking about things.
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Hmm.
vote: shraeye
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eHal, why are you asking me to be crazy? Do you enjoy that? If you do, then you are just as blatantly antitown as I was, and therefore deserve to he lynched.
Also, I got a bad read for not wanting to read a bunch of useless fluff every morning (which is highly likely considering the size of this town) and because I thought the Dsell -insert synonym for wagon here- was stupid?
I see your point, the town is huge and 4 people out of 13 to lynch is hardly big enough, but how does it help the town? Simple answer: IT DOESN'T.
Is this entire post addressed to me? I think you're responding to things I didn't say. Not sure because I don't fully remember what I posted, and I'm on phone right now so I don't want to check.
I'll say that I never asked you to be crazy. I said it was unusual that you weren't.
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Vote: shraeye
Did not like that post. I think you are absolutely wrong in saying acti-lurking isn't a thing. It is, and a scummy as hell one at that. Not saying our differing opinions make you obvscum, but I should do as I say an start voting at some point.
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Also,
Hi all, just wanted to drop in and say I'm not acti-lurking, just doing regular weekend life stuff, and trying to keep up.
I will mention Eevee is the same ole Eevee, Morgrim a very new Morgrim (liking it!), and the rest of you are still unmolded clay. I noticed talk of cards started and stopped very quickly; I think it's for the best to leave that to subsequent days.
Good, I was really worried you were "acti-lurking." Oh wait, no I wasn't, because that isn't a word. In more serious news, "talk of cards" never actually started; ehunt said "it's not a good thing to broadcast, don't do it." End of discussion. I suppose if I take "stopped very quickly" to mean instantly, you are right. Otherwise, you do not know what it means to start talking about things.
Acti-lurking is an f.ds term in mafia, coined I think in MX. I didn't make it up; glad you weren't worried about it.
It seems you are a stickler for semantics, and read peeved at my comment. No idea why. Your last line sounds especially hostile for such a thing.
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Also, unvote. RVS is over.
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Also, unvote. RVS is over.
who knew it was so easy to end RVS? ashersky says it and IT IS SO.
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Also, ftl's point was an excellent one. This forum tends to want lynch active players for slips that weren't really slips. I think "when facing heat, just shut the hell up and it will go away" is a terrible meta for us as a forum, so we should really work on that.
I agree on the point of don't let people disappear their way out of arguments. However, slips are very often real and should be followed up on.
On that note, Vote: ehunt. I still think he seems to know an awful lot about how much info the scum team has and I don't like the way he's trying to boss the town around.
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ehunt doesn't seem to want the town to talk about anything at all. We shouldn't talk about Robz, or speculate about the setup, or talk about card names, and, on the off chance that we do think of something to talk about, we should only post once a day, according to ehunt. He goes out of his way to set this up as "the right way to play."
Really, it just opens up a great place for him and his scumbuddies to hide by saying very little and claiming it's pro-town.
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vote: shraeye
No quantifiable reason just yet, but his post gave me a scum vibe.
I think I will try a vote early, vote often strategy this game.
FOS: ehunt for all the reasons jo said, but especially the "one post a day" comment. That's a strategy that's way better for scum than for town, if everyone followed it.
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Vote: ehunt
I have to say I was initially on board with ehunts idea; with such a large number of players I was smitten with the idea of less clutter more content. But as people actually started to refute this as being a bad idea it made me reevaluate my initial thoughts. Maybe its good in theory, bad in practice? Id rather encourage people to give themselves plenty of opportunities (through posting often) to produce inconsistent ideas which can be evaluated by the group. There might be more "junk" to sift through but all in all talking is good.
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vote: shraeye
No quantifiable reason just yet, but his post gave me a scum vibe.
Maybe because others do too?
I agree that shraeyes post is a bit nitpicky, but I don't think that's scummy.
Regarding ehunt: He said he would be posting only once a day before the game, so I don't think it tells us something about his alignment. However, I also don't like that idea much, since I like pointing out things right when i get too it. Also, if scum players think about their post the whole day, it's much less likely they'll slip.
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3. To everyone else, I highly recommend the one-thorough-post-a-day strategy. (I know I failed at it myself last night, but I had to correct an error in the voting record, plus there's the genuinely confusing thing). I find that it enormously clarifies my thoughts when I'm not just sniping at everything I disagree with. I also think the noise in here is going to get unbearable (even though it's OK now). I would most like to vote for somebody noisy or for a lurker at the end of the day (I know these are opposites, in a way! By "noise" I mean useless content, not content).
ehunt can defend himself in more depth when he returns, but I'll make a point about this part, which in and of itself is probably only part of the reason he has received votes but not the only reason, in that I feel that some members of the community are misunderstanding it.
It appears that some are interpreting ehunt's post as saying that other players should only post once with a thorough post. I don't see that. I think ehunt is suggesting that others post a large post once a day in addition to anything else that they might write. He suggests this because it helps him "clarify thoughts."
Perhaps I am the one misinterpreting ehunt's suggestion, but keep in mind: it is a suggestion, not a demand.
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That seems unlikely, since it contradicts what ehunt says ("failed at it" and "not sniping out everything I disagree with").
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Announcement: There IS a Quicktopic for spectators and deceased town members to discuss the game. Though basically everybody is already in this game, if you're not and you'd like to discuss it, PM me for the link.
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eHal, no, the entire post isn't adressed to you. But, you saying that I wasn't crazy enough is kinda suggesting that you want me to be crazier.
shraye, actilurking certainly is a thing. Possible scumslip?
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eHal, no, the entire post isn't adressed to you. But, you saying that I wasn't crazy enough is kinda suggesting that you want me to be crazier.
It's not suggesting that at all. The point was that in all the games I've watched where you were town, you were always crazy. For once, you are not so crazy. Do you see what I was getting at now? That's why I asked if there were games I hadn't followed where you were less crazy. Apparently you behaved yourself in IX.
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eHal, no, the entire post isn't adressed to you.
Also, you should quote the posts you respond to, or else it gets very difficult to track context.
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shraye, actilurking certainly is a thing. Possible scumslip?
Vote: shraeye
Did not like that post. I think you are absolutely wrong in saying acti-lurking isn't a thing. It is, and a scummy as hell one at that. Not saying our differing opinions make you obvscum, but I should do as I say an start voting at some point.
Acti-lurking is an f.ds term in mafia, coined I think in MX. I didn't make it up; glad you weren't worried about it.
It seems you are a stickler for semantics, and read peeved at my comment. No idea why. Your last line sounds especially hostile for such a thing.
Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means. If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me. I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined. When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name. Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell. I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
Also, unvote. RVS is over.
No, it's not. Vote: Voltgloss
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I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
Scumslip?
"I can't believe I got caught" vs. "I can't believe people suspect me".
I mean, you can argue that you meant the latter, but then it's kind of ironic since you're talking about using language accurately...
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Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means. If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me. I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined. When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name. Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell. I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
...really?
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I, um, wow.
I'm not normally one to put too much credence in scumslips, but dang.
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I guess it's more sarcastic on a reread.
Still, that's not an argument.
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As a new player I have no clue what actilurking is and if not for people adamantly telling me its a thing I wouldn't have thought it was a thing. Instead of talking about scumslips can we just define the term and move forward?
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there's no such thing as useless content.
yes, yes there is.
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there's no such thing as useless content.
yes, yes there is.
I guess I should say useless "content"
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I guess it's more sarcastic on a reread.
*dingdingding*
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Also,
Hi all, just wanted to drop in and say I'm not acti-lurking, just doing regular weekend life stuff, and trying to keep up.
I will mention Eevee is the same ole Eevee, Morgrim a very new Morgrim (liking it!), and the rest of you are still unmolded clay. I noticed talk of cards started and stopped very quickly; I think it's for the best to leave that to subsequent days.
Good, I was really worried you were "acti-lurking." Oh wait, no I wasn't, because that isn't a word. In more serious news, "talk of cards" never actually started; ehunt said "it's not a good thing to broadcast, don't do it." End of discussion. I suppose if I take "stopped very quickly" to mean instantly, you are right. Otherwise, you do not know what it means to start talking about things.
Acti-lurking is an f.ds term in mafia, coined I think in MX. I didn't make it up; glad you weren't worried about it.
It seems you are a stickler for semantics, and read peeved at my comment. No idea why. Your last line sounds especially hostile for such a thing.
A) I haven't seen "acti-lurking" as a phrase before either. You coined it in the last freaking game. I bet you are a alsdnkflasduvza. (What you don't know what that means? I bet you're scum!)
B) the concept of Active Lurking has been around since forever. I'm probably the first to mention it. The phrase "Active Lurking" works just as well or better than "acti-lurking". I had actually thought "acti-lurking" was a typo of "anti-lurking" the first time I read it.
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If this were a betting game, I would put some money down on O doing the same thing he did in MX, that is waiting to post until
GOD DAMNIT GUYS WHAT THE HELL
I wanted to actively lurk until
a) I got to L-1
b) Someone else got to L-1 and I could hammer in my first post.
Let's give him this opportunity to reach his goal...
so vote: O
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Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means. If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me. I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined. When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name. Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell. I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
...really?
That'll teach me to read the entire thread before posting.
sparky in IX anyone?
Vote: shraeye
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Shraeye is just being sarcastic...
Actually I was thinking the same thing as yuma. O, just come out of hiding. Don't make us force you out, you scum.
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Shraeye is just being sarcastic...
Actually I was thinking the same thing as yuma. O, just come out of hiding. Don't make us force you out, you scum.
it isn't so much to force him out as it is to get him to l1 instead of someone else and let him be the hammer.
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Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means. If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me. I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined. When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name. Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell. I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
"Actilurking" or "acti-lurking" is a blend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blend) of Active and Lurking, not quite a portmanteau as I don't think "acti" is a morpheme. In the same was that "smog" and "brunch" have entered our lexicon, so has "actilurking" on f.ds. I suppose I will continue to use quotation marks around it to ensure that you know it's a made-up word, though.
I'd note that in languages other than English (such as Japanese), the use of blends in actively encouraged. Take "karaoke" for example.
Wikipedia of course not being a "legitimate dictionary," I won't be sending you my hat. Feel free to have a Vote: shraeye for now, though, based on:
Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means. If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me. I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined. When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name. Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell. I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
...really?
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Post counts subtracting one for the "in"
1. Ftl - 13
2. Voltgloss - 13
3. Eevee - 11
4. Grujah - 14
5. Insomniac - 13
6. Glooble - 3
7. Dsell - 12
8. Jotheonah - 30
9. Young Nick - 8
10. Voltaire - 4
11. Axxle - 15
12. O - 0
13. Cayvie - 30
14. Shraeye - 9
15. Cuzz - 3
16. Yuma - 11
17. igbtennis - -1 -- He deleted his in posts?
18. TheMunch - 4
19. Morgrim7 - 10
20. EHalcyon - 16
21. Watno - 4
22. Galzria - 26
23. Captain_Frisk - 6
24. ehunt - 5
25. ashersky - 6
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I intend to start having far more content tomorrow, but what the hell is going on with O, and igbtennis, O has only his in post, and igbtennis deleted his in post and his pre twin claim...
ROBZ PLEASE PROD IGBTENNIS, OR CONFIRM HE IS (NOT) IN THIS GAME
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I intend to start having far more content tomorrow, but what the hell is going on with O, and igbtennis, O has only his in post, and igbtennis deleted his in post and his pre twin claim...
ROBZ PLEASE PROD IGBTENNIS, OR CONFIRM HE IS (NOT) IN THIS GAME
We keep spelling his name wrong; the 'b' comes before the 'g'. He did not, in fact, delete his introductory "in" post. I asked him and Munch, the true newbs, to confirm their participation a week ago, and then I asked them to do so again after role PMs. He confirmed both times. It IS the weekend, perhaps he's just busy.
However, I will send prods to both ibgtennis and O tomorrow if they have not yet posted. So far, I'm not displeased with the level of involvement. It was an odd time to begin the game.
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Vote Count 1.5
igbtennis (2) -- ftl, Insomniac
shraeye (6) -- Cayvie, Eevee, Glooble, Axxle, ashersky
ehunt (2) -- Jotheonah, TheMunch
Voltgloss (1) -- shraeye
O (1) -- yuma
Not Voting (14) -- Voltgloss, Grujah, Young Nick, Voltaire, O, Cuzz, igbtennis, Morgrim7, eHalcyon, Watno, Captain_Frisk, Galzria, Dsell, ehunt
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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I still suspect shraeye more than anyone else (not that I suspect anyone all that much) but I didn't find the comment people keep quoting especially scummy. It was clearly tongue-in-cheek.
This kind of reminds me of jo in Mafia VI, where he claimed scum as a joke early on and it got him suspected for the rest of the game. The difference is jo had a clearly established meta of being a silly guy, which kept him from getting lynched, whereas shraeye doesn't yet have a well-established reputation for sarcasm.
But no one looks scummier right now.
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Post counts subtracting one for the "in"
[insert numbers here]
I don't like that this post count counts posts that were entered before the game actually started. I don't count anything before #195. I also don't always count back-to-back posts as seperate posts depending on the content. But I definitely am waiting to hear more from a few players. Some V/LA (cuzz, frisk, voltgloss, voltaire, YouNgick) and some just plain mysterious (O and ibgtennis)
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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.
(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")
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Post counts subtracting one for the "in"
[insert numbers here]
I don't like that this post count counts posts that were entered before the game actually started. I don't count anything before #195. I also don't always count back-to-back posts as seperate posts depending on the content. But I definitely am waiting to hear more from a few players. Some V/LA (cuzz, frisk, voltgloss, voltaire, YouNgick) and some just plain mysterious (O and ibgtennis)
man, if you don't like it, post one yourself. it takes a fair amount of work to put together a post count that gets rid of all posts that were before the game started; too much, especially when one that just tallies total posts is so easy.
I think everyone understands that the post counts include pre-game talk and interpret it as such.
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It happens that I do keep those notes around.
21:cayvie 20:jotheonah 10:galzria 9:dsell
8:ehalcyon, shraeye, yuma 7:axxle, ftl 6:ashersky, eevee, insomniac
5:Morgrim 4:grujah, theMunch, watno 3:ehunt, glooble
1:cuzz, frisk, voltgloss 0:ibgtennis, o, voltaire, youNgick
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damn cayvie always beating me. I'll just have to post more.
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damn cayvie always beating me. I'll just have to post more.
ehunt won't be pleased.
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damn cayvie always beating me. I'll just have to post more.
ehunt won't be pleased.
:) +1
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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.
(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")
As a clarification, are secret voters and/or doublevoters always pro town? You seem to be implying that thats the case and I just dont know better.
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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.
(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")
As a clarification, are secret voters and/or doublevoters always pro town? You seem to be implying that thats the case and I just dont know better.
I think it's more likely pro-town but there are no guarantees.
Re-reading shraeye's post, it does look more on the facetious side. Heh.
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A couple things from ehunt have me tilting my head quizzically.
For example, if I logically deduce "there cannot be a tracker" but mafia knows that there is a tracker, then mafia will realize that the tracker isn't me, and it will make their hunt for power-roles either.
ehunt, what makes you think scum would have that kind of information? As far as we all know, this isn't Pick Your Poison-styled. And if it were, only scum would know.
A couple posts yesterday seemed like straight-up rolefishing.
ehunt, why didn't you identify those rolefishing posts? If you think someone is scum rolefishing for town power roles, shouldn't you voice your suspicions up-front so the town can weigh and discuss them? I don't see how this veiled, vague reference is helpful to town.
Other things...
Everyone confused about "acti-lurking" should read this: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Active_Lurking. The proper term appears to be "Active Lurking."
I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
Scumslip?
"I can't believe I got caught" vs. "I can't believe people suspect me".
I mean, you can argue that you meant the latter, but then it's kind of ironic since you're talking about using language accurately...
Amusing scumslip. Right up there with Captain_Frisk's 0% chance of flipping town.
...although what's most interesting to me is the way yuma and Dsell immediately tried to change the subject to O. If in the future one of those three flip scum, we should carefully reevaluate the other two.
Query: if the double/secret-voter were scum, would they reveal their voting ability this early in the game?
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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.
(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")
As a clarification, are secret voters and/or doublevoters always pro town? You seem to be implying that thats the case and I just dont know better.
No, I think they're very possibly scum. But I see why you read it that way. The bit in quote marks is a mocking sarcastic version of what someone (ehunt, I think) said about how speculating about the double vote is bad. It reads better with additional punctuation, to wit:
OMG he made an obvious observation. Guys, that only helps the scum team!1!!
My point being that commenting on things everyone can see is, at worst, neutral and, at best, townish.
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Man, I just don't like the way shraeye tried to divert conversation to "is acti-lurking a word?"
That's an irrelevant issue. I originally voted because of this, in response to ashersky's comment that he was "not acti-lurking":
Good, I was really worried you were "acti-lurking." Oh wait, no I wasn't, because that isn't a word. In more serious news, "talk of cards" never actually started; ehunt said "it's not a good thing to broadcast, don't do it." End of discussion. I suppose if I take "stopped very quickly" to mean instantly, you are right. Otherwise, you do not know what it means to start talking about things.
It's a level of snark that seems out of place in response to a nothing post. It's also a level of snark that I don't recall shraeye exhibiting in IX as town.
I do want to point out, though, that, taken in the context of the previous sentence, shraeye's scumslip (yes, the one I pointed out earlier) really isn't one.
Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means. If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me. I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined. When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name. Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell. I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
He's pretty clearly being sarcastic here, and using the words he means to.
Mostly, though, I don't see why he's so upset over the whole "acti-lurking" thing. It feels phony. Surely if you don't know what a word means, you can just ask.
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I'd like ehunt's idea of having just one post per day, just make sure it's good, but I suspect that's sort of hard to keep up/enforce. If you have more things to say, are you going to wait to say them until the next day, if you've already made your post? I think people should prefer to consolidate what they say into a smaller number of more content-full posts, but I don't think people should "restrict" themselves to one post or anything like that. Just try to get in one good post if you haven't done anything else. I'm doing one post today just because I haven't been around all day, but I don't see this being practical as a pattern.
My new guess about the secret vote: secret voter is either newbie or town (or both). Since it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, any experienced mafia player would know better than to immediately reveal it, and would use it to secretly hammer when the time came. A newbie mafia could still get overeager with it and use it immediately (FoS: igbtennis, munch, and I guess also watno and cuzz, I only remember them in joth's BM, and I could see morgrim doing that even though he's not a newbie); or, it's an experienced townie making sure the town knows he's around so they can plan accordingly. Still keeping my eye on the newbies though.
OK, detailed answer to TheMunch's post:
So maybe I am just incredibly naive but I just dont understand the RVS as a concept. If the goal during the day is for town people to make good decisions and scum to make "bad" ones then having a RVS stage should, in my mind, only be backed by two kinds of people: lazy town and overeager scum. Both of these kinds of players are ones I wouldn't want to see around.
Well, the point of RVS is to get something started. Like, if you don't have RVS, you have... what? Town sitting around and saying "nobody's suspicious, so I'm not voting for anybody" all day. So you throw some votes around. Make people talk, so maybe you'll catch scum in a lie. Make people vote, so that afterwards, you can catch scum based on who voted for who.
It doesn't have to be RVS. Depending on the game, it could be talk about meta like someone else started here, or talk about theory, or talk about the setup. Anything to make people *commit* to positions and *say* things that they'll be held to later. And random votes work fine for that. You'll rarely catch scum with them, but they'll at least set up future days.
I agree with Cayvie here. For the people that are giving meta information, I could care less how players played in previous games. Anyone can change their playstyle at any minute and does not come with any value.
That probably depends on the player. No matter how much I tried, I don't think I could run the town like Galz sometimes does. I tried deliberately playing like Robz (one vote per day!) at one point and couldn't keep it up. And, well, I'm sure people have some patterns to how they play mafia or town that they don't even notice and so can't correct.
there's no such thing as useless content.
I guess we'll see. That's been true so far in all of the games here (That I've been in), we haven't gotten lost in too many posts. There's always a first, but I don't want to discourage people from posting "just in case" it becomes too much to handle.
My vote stays on ibgtennis until he posts something of value. It's the weekend so I don't really blame him for not being around, the game started at an awkward time, but I don't want to *start* the game by giving people free passes and excuses. Also FoSing O for the reasons pointed out by someone else before. He should know better. Lurking/no content is scummier than shraeye's snark.
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I'd like ehunt's idea of having just one post per day, just make sure it's good, but I suspect that's sort of hard to keep up/enforce. If you have more things to say, are you going to wait to say them until the next day, if you've already made your post? I think people should prefer to consolidate what they say into a smaller number of more content-full posts, but I don't think people should "restrict" themselves to one post or anything like that. Just try to get in one good post if you haven't done anything else. I'm doing one post today just because I haven't been around all day, but I don't see this being practical as a pattern.
I like the fluff. I like the ebb and flow of conversation. I try to get reads off of tone and how people interact with each other, see who feels comfortable and who's edgy. I kinda think that any sort of post restriction, whether mod-instated or community-influenced, messes with the natural flow of things and makes what people say sound forced. And that makes it harder to read people.
My vote stays on ibgtennis until he posts something of value. It's the weekend so I don't really blame him for not being around, the game started at an awkward time, but I don't want to *start* the game by giving people free passes and excuses. Also FoSing O for the reasons pointed out by someone else before. He should know better. Lurking/no content is scummier than shraeye's snark.
I can 100% get behind a Day 1 lurker lynch in a town this big.
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Wow, two scumslips in a row by shyaeye and he doesn't even respond. I think you uh... just got caught. Vote: shraeye.
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Well, the point of RVS is to get something started. Like, if you don't have RVS, you have... what? Town sitting around and saying "nobody's suspicious, so I'm not voting for anybody" all day. So you throw some votes around. Make people talk, so maybe you'll catch scum in a lie. Make people vote, so that afterwards, you can catch scum based on who voted for who.
It doesn't have to be RVS. Depending on the game, it could be talk about meta like someone else started here, or talk about theory, or talk about the setup. Anything to make people *commit* to positions and *say* things that they'll be held to later. And random votes work fine for that. You'll rarely catch scum with them, but they'll at least set up future days.
The point I was trying to make was that there are other ways to get the game going, namely all the meta posts about previous players. I'm not trying to claim that I am an expert at this game but clearly alternatives do exist. People that have responded to me in favor of RVS have had no other argument other than "well, what else are you going to do". Which is fine, thats exactly the kind of defeatist attitude I would expect from proponents of the RVS. I mean, heck, even Shraeye's "scumslip" (come on guys... that post doesnt immidiately make him scum or not scum, just obnoxiously sarcastic) started more conversation than any random voting ever did. The closest second would be those voting to get rid of inactive players which I also support (Cayvie, post #366).
My new guess about the secret vote: secret voter is either newbie or town (or both). Since it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, any experienced mafia player would know better than to immediately reveal it, and would use it to secretly hammer when the time came. A newbie mafia could still get overeager with it and use it immediately (FoS: igbtennis, munch, and I guess also watno and cuzz, I only remember them in joth's BM, and I could see morgrim doing that even though he's not a newbie); or, it's an experienced townie making sure the town knows he's around so they can plan accordingly. Still keeping my eye on the newbies though.
I dont like this line of reasoning; not because I'm one of the new players, but because I think its fallacious. (Also if that is your reasoning, your only suspicion should be pointed against me since igbtennis is currently a nonparticipant? but thats irrelevenet) So you're saying prior to game start we know their could be a secret voter but not necessarily that there is one and revealing the role's existance is a "noob mistake." I dont think its a secret voter but a doublevoter (the hidden vote has always moved with one individual, not conclusive with the number of vote counts but enough to watch for). If its a doublevoter, they cant really keep that a secret (other than wait till the end and hammer, you are right). That being said, a very active secret voter could make it appear like someone is a double voter for whatever reason. Basically what I'm saying is, we cant know if its a secret voter or a double voter, the existance of a secret voter could make a double voter look in attendence, and if there is a secret voter, thats something not obvious to track. So if its a secret voter, then its not necessarily noob to do something deceptive, and we cant know whether or not its a secret voter or a double voter. Take that as you will.
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Cool, lots to say.
point number A
My new guess about the secret vote: secret voter is either newbie or town (or both). Since it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, any experienced mafia player would know better than to immediately reveal it, and would use it to secretly hammer when the time came. A newbie mafia could still get overeager with it and use it immediately (FoS: igbtennis, munch, and I guess also watno and cuzz, I only remember them in joth's BM, and I could see morgrim doing that even though he's not a newbie); or, it's an experienced townie making sure the town knows he's around so they can plan accordingly. Still keeping my eye on the newbies though.
I dont like this line of reasoning; not because I'm one of the new players, but because I think its fallacious. (Also if that is your reasoning, your only suspicion should be pointed against me since igbtennis is currently a nonparticipant? but thats irrelevenet) So you're saying prior to game start we know their could be a secret voter but not necessarily that there is one and revealing the role's existance is a "noob mistake." I dont think its a secret voter but a doublevoter (the hidden vote has always moved with one individual, not conclusive with the number of vote counts but enough to watch for). If its a doublevoter, they cant really keep that a secret (other than wait till the end and hammer, you are right). That being said, a very active secret voter could make it appear like someone is a double voter for whatever reason. Basically what I'm saying is, we cant know if its a secret voter or a double voter, the existance of a secret voter could make a double voter look in attendence, and if there is a secret voter, thats something not obvious to track. So if its a secret voter, then its not necessarily noob to do something deceptive, and we cant know whether or not its a secret voter or a double voter. Take that as you will.
So TheMunch notes that the vote has always followed one player around, and let me make that explicit. The vote has followed Axxle. Does anyone remember these relevant posts from pre-game? Read post #173 and #174.
point number B
Wow, two scumslips in a row by shyaeye and he doesn't even respond. I think you uh... just got caught. Vote: shraeye.
Morgrim, you keep using that word scumslip. I do not think it means what you think it means. No, that was a lie that I used just because it's fun to try to quote the Princess Bride. You clearly think that it is an actual scumslip, which is hilarious becase I intentionally said both of those things (as cayvie points out somewhat). So it wasn't a slip. I haven't responded because I'm waiting for other people to realize that sarcasm exists. Apparently I need to spell things out for y'all, which ruins the humor. The reason I responded to your post about "shraye, actilurking certainly is a thing. Possible scumslip?" is because it was the most ridiculous of the responses my actilurking post got. So I had to respond ridiculously. My hatred of acronyms is something I think I've posted about at some point in my f.DS history. Maybe that was during signups for Mafia IX or maybe during Diplomacy. I didn't know what V/LA meant until I started getting into forum games here (my confusion there is probably documentedin the V/LA thread). Well that hatred extends to blends and portmanteaus. They're dumb. Actual words exist to describe things, so inventing new ones tends to aggrevate me. Hey, some of them are good, and I even adopt some of them; usually these are ones that describe a concept better then the normal words do. Like smog, or brunch. A great non-example would be saying delish, instead of delicious. Or saying acti-lurking instead of actively lurking.
But there are more of them that I don't like. So I post to say acti-lurking sounds like a silly word. And I immediately get responses back saying "no, acti-lurking is a real thing." Well I bet it is, which is why I never said it wasn't a concept. I just said that acti-lurking is not a word. Axxle sums this up nicely when he posts a string of letters and sarcastically says that anyone who doesn't know what he means is scum. I just did it with about 30 times the snark.
So now it's been called Active Lurking and I have a mafiascum.net description of it. Funny thing is, that description is not what ashersky was doing. Actively Lurking means to post irrelevant posts often essentially being lurking with your ideas while still technically being post-count present. I'm pretty sure that doesn't describe what ashersky was doing, or worried that he was looking like he was doing.
point number B and a half
It's a level of snark that seems out of place in response to a nothing post. It's also a level of snark that I don't recall shraeye exhibiting in IX as town.
I do want to point out, though, that, taken in the context of the previous sentence, shraeye's scumslip (yes, the one I pointed out earlier) really isn't one.
Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means. If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me. I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined. When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name. Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell. I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
He's pretty clearly being sarcastic here, and using the words he means to.
Mostly, though, I don't see why he's so upset over the whole "acti-lurking" thing. It feels phony. Surely if you don't know what a word means, you can just ask.
I'm glad a few people could pick up on sarcasm (there are others; y'all can check if you like, this post is already too long). As for how much I'm making, cayvie is correct. More than I did as town in Mafia IX. So now you can all start making a big firetruckin' deal out of that. And yes, the surprising amount of anger over the word usage of ashersky was overly nitpicking and slightly phony. It's called hyperbole, and it's a classic literary device, here used to create the effect of humor. Well, I laughed. And I'm still laughing.
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So TheMunch notes that the vote has always followed one player around, and let me make that explicit. The vote has followed Axxle. Does anyone remember these relevant posts from pre-game? Read post #173 and #174.
shraeye, do you think apparent double-voting ability means Axxle is more likely to be (1) town, or (2) scum?
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Good question. I think that a double-voter could definitely be either a scum or town role. As I recall Robz said that his "personality" for us wouldn't affect the chances of drawing scum. Couple that with my thought that Axxle's double-vote was always in the setup and I think it has no affect on his alignment.
But how he is using his vote (assuming that he knows that he's double-voter) could say some things, but even from this I get nothing but null reads. The argument that Axxle could use his scum double-vote as a surprise hammer could be made, but that's flawed logic I'm sure. A move like that would surprise us, but would feel verrry scummy to everyone. If a vigilante exists, I'm not sure Axxle would survive the night.
So a succinct answer is that I think that if Axxle is a double voter (I'm only 95% certain) makes Axxle an important character (one I will try really hard to read), but doesn't sway him towards scum or town.
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Good question. I think that a double-voter could definitely be either a scum or town role. As I recall Robz said that his "personality" for us wouldn't affect the chances of drawing scum. Couple that with my thought that Axxle's double-vote was always in the setup and I think it has no affect on his alignment.
But how he is using his vote (assuming that he knows that he's double-voter) could say some things, but even from this I get nothing but null reads. The argument that Axxle could use his scum double-vote as a surprise hammer could be made, but that's flawed logic I'm sure. A move like that would surprise us, but would feel verrry scummy to everyone. If a vigilante exists, I'm not sure Axxle would survive the night.
So a succinct answer is that I think that if Axxle is a double voter (I'm only 95% certain) makes Axxle an important character (one I will try really hard to read), but doesn't sway him towards scum or town.
Excuse me, I meant "the argument that scum Axxle should/would use his double-vote as a surprise hammer could be made, but that's flawed logic"
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vote shraeye
I guess this is a good example of acti-lurking. We shouldn't discuss about what words to use, but find scum. If you didn't get what ashersky wanted to say, why not just ask?
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Guys. Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuys. Oww. I get back from vacation, take care of ZM2 and BMV, and I have about 13 pages to read. /sigh
Though I am very glad RVS appears to be ending, but my head is hurting trying to track these issues. I still want O to post. Also anyone else who hasn't posted yet. Though I know O is doing it intentionally.
Heck, vote: O since it's still RVS for me (I said it, it's true!) until I can go back and read more carefully.
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Another possibility that bears consideration is that a secret voter is framing Axxle.
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All right - caught up.
My thoughts:
Shraeye's scumslip:
Even being guilty of the biggest scumslip in history on f.ds, I have a hard time believing that a scumslip is really a scumtell.
Morgrim Hunting
Second, I think Morgrim-hunting is a scumtell. Which is to say, vote: Dsell. I don't like how you characterized your vote as being a policy vote and then decided later that it was actually an RVS vote. ScumFrisk did exactly that in MIX (sadly, scumVoltgloss convinced a whole bunch of scum and a couple townies that Morgrim-hunting-hunting was the scumtell. Moral: Morgrim-hunting^n is a scumtell if and only if n is odd (n=0 is the case of just being Morgrim, which is neutral)).
Sure I was scum, and I was in favor of Morgrim hunting in M9.
This does not make it a scumtell. RobZ hunted Morgrim in MX - and it got him lynched (town), and then Jorbles and I killed the mogrim hunter hunter (O). We (scum) wanted to leave Morgrim alive for the inevitable craziness that would occur when we got to lylo (either he'd be an easy lynch, or he'd early vote). M9 was won by Voltgloss because of Morgrim's behavior - right?
Unfortunately for scum in MX - he was replaced by the excellent Voltaire - who immediately locked onto my scummitude, and the rest was history.
Card claiming
Third, I want to encourage everyone to be very cautious about naming your card name or revealing anything about your card name (like if it is action, treasure, curse, etc.). As far as I can tell it doesn't function to provide "named townies" (since we are told it's possible for multiple folks to share a card). I am concerned that we will have a repeat of MIX, where there were scum power roles that benefitted from knowing names of cards (or, more accurately, suits). In particular, I think it's not best to reveal your card name even if you are at L - 1 since the card name does nothing to prove your alignment and may help scum, who have a lot more information.
I tend to agree - I've been generally against goofy claiming (side / seat / suit), but I've also never had a role that made use of that information in a meaningful way. However - your specific stance made me nervous. What makes you think that scum have more card related information than town does?
Mod Question: ## Will cards be revealed on death? ##
I guess I just don't see enough information out there that would lead me to believe that card claiming at L-1 should be avoided - and yet eHunt is out there discouraging it.
Actilurking
Meh. I was accused of it - and I wasn't doing it. Playing scum is harder than playing town. Playing scum in 3 simultaneous games is harder still. You want to be careful of your posts. Lurking is scummy. Acti-lurking might just be co-incidence.
Secret / Doublevoting
At least we know its out there. Rolefishing is bad - right?
I usually like to have my vote on someone on day 1, but we're far enough in that random voting feels strange, and I don't have a strong enough read to real vote yet.
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Actilurking
Meh. I was accused of it - and I wasn't doing it. Playing scum is harder than playing town. Playing scum in 3 simultaneous games is harder still. You want to be careful of your posts. Lurking is scummy. Acti-lurking might just be co-incidence.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. You're complaining about being scum in 3 games being too hard? So is that what you're doing? Also, I don't agree that acti-lurking is less scummy than lurking. Lurking can be caused by just not being there. Acti-lurking is exactly what you get when you're careful of your posts ("I'll better not state an opinion regarding that. But if I don't post anything, people will accuse me of lurking")
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Actilurking
Meh. I was accused of it - and I wasn't doing it. Playing scum is harder than playing town. Playing scum in 3 simultaneous games is harder still. You want to be careful of your posts. Lurking is scummy. Acti-lurking might just be co-incidence.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. You're complaining about being scum in 3 games being too hard? So is that what you're doing? Also, I don't agree that acti-lurking is less scummy than lurking. Lurking can be caused by just not being there. Acti-lurking is exactly what you get when you're careful of your posts ("I'll better not state an opinion regarding that. But if I don't post anything, people will accuse me of lurking")
I'm just saying that acti-lurking might also be caused by phone posting / scanning thread etc. - which may or may not be scummier than just not checking the thread - so it shouldn't be viewed as super scummy.
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I think we need to define what act-lurking is^^
When I say acti-lurking I mean only posting stuff that is not relevant to the game.
It seems to me what you understand as acti-lurking is looking at the thread without posting. Right?
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I'm with whoever said the prolonged discussion of acti-lurking is, in fact, acti-lurking.
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Well I disappear for a day and you all get serious.
Thoughts:
Shraeye doesn't seem scummy over those posts, and I really have a hard time seeing anything he posted as a legitimate "scumslip". That said, his reactions WERE a bit more confrontational than anything he ever posted in M-IX, and certainly it doesn't match to the personality I know in Diplomacy. It may be as good as Abby other vote if nothing has been found by deadline, but I don't think it's a good press right now. Certainly going to be watching a bit more closely.
eHunts posts on the other hand really did rub me the wrong way, but I would be hard pressed to say exactly why. I don't know if it's tone related or content related. Well, it's not exactly content related. I don't agree with everything he's said, but I do agree with some. It's just... His inflection? His assertiveness? I don't know. But something about the way he's said what he has puts me on edge. Still, not going to vote for him now because maybe it really is just the construction of his posts that bug me. Certainly he seemed scummy in past games to me and was town, so I'll try to filter any reads I have on him (especially gut reads and not content reads) through the "is that just how I read eHunt" lense.
Joth has been leaning back towards his sarcastic days, and I'm not sure how to read it. It's stood out to me though, but I always have to be careful here. Joth has never actually been Mafia, despite being in a number of games, so all of my reads on him of being scum to date have been wrong (I pegged him as scum D1 in M-III, but he was SK) Still, this Joth seems a little edgy to me... So I'll be keeping an eye on his posts.
Nobody else has really jumped out at me. For the people saying (and I notice this coming from mostly new players) that "meta-information means little because people can change the way they play at anytime" - Quite bluntly, you're wrong. You may subconsciously try, hell you may consciously try - but it isn't that simple. People have certain tendencies as both town and scum that, no matter how hard they try to change them, still come across in their posts. When I'm scum, I'm very confident. Town has a tendency to trust me almost universally. When I'm town, I get suspected a LOT more, and always seem very scummy to at least a handful of people (often townies). I've known this meta about myself since M-III. I've actively tried to change it from both standpoints (being scum Abe being town). At the end of the day however, the meta usually holds true. The same is true for my reads on Robz. I can nearly always peg him correctly. And Robz is very, very good at reading Voltgloss. None of us want to be locked into a meta, but there are always little things throughout every game that are consistent matches to a scum/town personality for any given player. And they're things that the player simply can't help.
Lastly, card-naming: Generally I think that it's a bad idea en-masse. However, I'm not sure that claiming on your death bed is detrimental to town. I was scum in BMMM and we were warned about card-claiming, flavor claiming,side claiming, etc. At the end of the game however, we scum had no information about any such claims that would've helped us. Certain town members however, did. In RMM-I and RMM-II we debated card claiming, but again I'm not sure that scum had any more information that would've made such claims useful than various members of the town. My point is, I think that putting the information out there (which is likely to be revealed upon death, although we can get that clarified) before the hammer falls is *probably* going to be more beneficial to town than not. Still, I think each person is different and the final decision should be left to them.
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I sent prods to O and ibgtennis. I would like to cut them some slack since the game started at a weird time, and it was the weekend. Hopefully they will get in here soon.
Mod Question: ## Will cards be revealed on death? ##
You will have to wait until someone dies to find out what information will be revealed upon death.
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Man, Galzria looks super town in that post. Which, by his own admission, means we should probably lynch him.
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Galz, either you're breadcrumbing something weird, or that post has some great auto-correct errors.
I also feel rubbed the wrong way about ehunt's post, but I'm reminding myself that scum is probably still lurking. I'm comfortable keeping my vote on O for now. I want him out of the woodwork, especially since he's an experienced player.
I've seen the new people playing like new people - that's a town read for now.
Eevee, I didn't follow your advice and start note-taking the first time I read. Woe is me...
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I think we need to define what act-lurking is^^
When I say acti-lurking I mean only posting stuff that is not relevant to the game.
It seems to me what you understand as acti-lurking is looking at the thread without posting. Right?
Yep - and it looks like I'm wrong. Apologies!
I'm with whoever said the prolonged discussion of acti-lurking is, in fact, acti-lurking.
+1 to Jonah - although wouldn't this comment also qualify?
Galz - are you trying to write the same post as me - or is ehunt really the only person who stood out during your read?
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Abby = any, Abe = and. No breadcrumbs. PINL (for those not following BM-V, PINL = Promise I'm Not Lying). Just bad auto-corrects from my mobile.
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I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.
That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.
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Abby = any, Abe = and. No breadcrumbs. PINL (for those not following BM-V, PINL = Promise I'm Not Lying). Just bad auto-corrects from my mobile.
He's breadcrumbing letter carrier/lie-detector hybrid. Abby = Dear Abby, Abe = Honest Abe. Brilliant.
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I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.
That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.
I could get behind this. His bro-cred with me has finally run out after all the times he's fooled me.
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I think we need to define what act-lurking is^^
When I say acti-lurking I mean only posting stuff that is not relevant to the game.
It seems to me what you understand as acti-lurking is looking at the thread without posting. Right?
Yep - and it looks like I'm wrong. Apologies!
I'm with whoever said the prolonged discussion of acti-lurking is, in fact, acti-lurking.
+1 to Jonah - although wouldn't this comment also qualify?
Galz - are you trying to write the same post as me - or is ehunt really the only person who stood out during your read?
Was my post similar? I don't know. I'll have to reread yours. If it is, it just means what you said doesn't jump out at me because I obviously agree with much of it. :P
No, eHunt isn't the only one who stood out to me. I named the top three, and while those three are under suspicion from others as well, I tried to provide my own perspective on each. It's hard being out for a day, and then coming to the party late.
There are others who have said and done minor things that have raised my eyebrows, but nothing significant. I'm honestly more likely, I think, to search for scum amongst those who don't seem scummy - but you know first hand how that approach worked when applied in M-VII.
I'll wait to see what ibgtennis has to say, but his nonposting somehow gives me a very bozzball read. I hope that when he does post that changes.
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I'm surprised no one has called me out fot voting shraeye yet. This looks exactly like the classic f.Ds day 1 wagon I tried to warn everyone about..Unvote
I will say this though, his personality seems to somehow be totally different from IX, so I dont regret finding him scummy first. I agree ehunt is looking weird, he is assuming stuff from the game setup only scum could know, and definitely being more aggressive and peading than earlier. Also trying to limit everyone to just one post a day is weird. Dunno, maybe Vote: ehunt will warrant an answer from him.
PPE: five new replies, I type slow on ipad. Some of this might be outdated already.
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I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.
That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.
I could get behind this. His bro-cred with me has finally run out after all the times he's fooled me.
+ (insert # here) forum points.
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I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.
That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.
I called it out because it jumped out to me, so I missed the context that framed it as snark. I recanted on a subsequent re-read.
I echo jo's thoughts on Galz.
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I'm with whoever said the prolonged discussion of acti-lurking is, in fact, acti-lurking.
100 times this. Shraeye has had content in a lot of his posts and I think its about time people both notice that and comment on it (I'm looking at you Cayvie in posts 335 and 364; you bold the least content filled part of the posts and start this whole tangent. There very well might be others that are guilty for this but it deserves to be noted that people are guilty of this; see: watno.) I'm not trying to tie myself irreparably to Shraeye as I dont really have a good read on him one way or the other, but that doesn't mean there are other things of validity to discuss.
For example, Hey Gooble (in 324) and Watno (in 373), you both mention that you are suspicious of Shraeye. You are both most notable for being suspicious for reasons NOT involving the ridiculous "scumslip". Care to elaborate?
And not that I want to continue silliness involving semantics of "acti-lurking" but this all started with the post by Ashersky. If I understand correctly, Active Lurking (already mentioned but worth reiterating) is the act of making you look active while contributing nothing to the conversation, usually used to avoid topics while avoiding looking like you are avoiding topics. If that is the case, then why is Ashersky actually worried at all about being accused of active lurking. To active lurk there would need to be topics that he would want to avoid, but there weren't any at the time of the post. It just seems silly to me to be worried about being accused of something scummy when that act is physically impossible.
That all being said, my vote is on ehunt and will remain there for the time being. People have pretty much fleshed out why it is worthy to be suspicious of ehunt.
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My original ashersky post had content in it that was overshadowed by the sarcasm. That was "why were you so focused on card-claiming that you said that a discussion regarding it had started and stopped, when all it was was ehunt posting once that it's a bad idea?"
This got super lost in the aftermath.
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I'm with whoever said the prolonged discussion of acti-lurking is, in fact, acti-lurking.
100 times this. Shraeye has had content in a lot of his posts and I think its about time people both notice that and comment on it (I'm looking at you Cayvie in posts 335 and 364; you bold the least content filled part of the posts and start this whole tangent. There very well might be others that are guilty for this but it deserves to be noted that people are guilty of this; see: watno.) I'm not trying to tie myself irreparably to Shraeye as I dont really have a good read on him one way or the other, but that doesn't mean there are other things of validity to discuss.
For example, Hey Gooble (in 324) and Watno (in 373), you both mention that you are suspicious of Shraeye. You are both most notable for being suspicious for reasons NOT involving the ridiculous "scumslip". Care to elaborate?
And not that I want to continue silliness involving semantics of "acti-lurking" but this all started with the post by Ashersky. If I understand correctly, Active Lurking (already mentioned but worth reiterating) is the act of making you look active while contributing nothing to the conversation, usually used to avoid topics while avoiding looking like you are avoiding topics. If that is the case, then why is Ashersky actually worried at all about being accused of active lurking. To active lurk there would need to be topics that he would want to avoid, but there weren't any at the time of the post. It just seems silly to me to be worried about being accused of something scummy when that act is physically impossible.
That all being said, my vote is on ehunt and will remain there for the time being. People have pretty much fleshed out why it is worthy to be suspicious of ehunt.
Pretty sure I called out shraeye before cayvie did, even if she made it bigger than I did. cayvie's #364 gives plenty of non-scumslip reasons for suspecting shraeye. Making a fuss about a portmanteau is ridiculous. English is a mess of a language anyways. Was Shakespeare an idiot for making up a new word every 5 pages?
What content has there been in shraeye's posts? Sure there has been some, there's some in everyone's posts. There hasn't been anything noteworthy enough to warrant your passionate defense. Your first paragraph is a bit contradictory in that shraeye was the one who unnecessarily made a big deal about the word in the first place, instead of just asking about it in the first place. Shouldn't that cause you to be more suspicious of him?
Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
I get kind of a bad vibe from you, but that might just be because I've never played a game with you before this.
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So much to say. I will probably split today's "one big post" into lots of little posts with numbers for easier questions. I want to talk about:
1. responses to specific questions asked of me by
a. voltgloss
b. frisk
2. mafia theory + allegations that I am bossy
3. "one post a day"
4. the ehunt wagon (preview: i don't like it)
5. the shraeye wagon (preview: it's scummy)
6. shraeye (preview: he's scummy)
7. the double-vote (preview: I no longer think it's dangerous to talk about the double-vote)
8. the lurkers (preview: vote: O)
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this should be good.
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I find 5 and 6 to be hilariously opposing so I am in fact looking forward to those posts
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I find 5 and 6 to be hilariously opposing so I am in fact looking forward to those posts
I found that amusing as well.
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I find 5 and 6 to be hilariously opposing so I am in fact looking forward to those posts
Nah. I already kind of said that too.
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For example, if I logically deduce "there cannot be a tracker" but mafia knows that there is a tracker, then mafia will realize that the tracker isn't me, and it will make their hunt for power-roles either.
ehunt, what makes you think scum would have that kind of information? As far as we all know, this isn't Pick Your Poison-styled. And if it were, only scum would know.
A couple posts yesterday seemed like straight-up rolefishing.
ehunt, why didn't you identify those rolefishing posts? If you think someone is scum rolefishing for town power roles, shouldn't you voice your suspicions up-front so the town can weigh and discuss them? I don't see how this veiled, vague reference is helpful to town.
This is post 1a. The "tracker" was a poorly veiled reference to MXIII. At the start of MXIII town assumed it was a good idea to speculate about what roles the mafia puts in. But then when you're the town tracker, you're in an awkward situation where if you say "i don't think there's a tracker" you're a lying townie. So anyone who says "i don't think there's a tracker" is almost certainly not tracker, and this makes mafia's night kill easier. Anyway, I agree, it's not directly relevant to this game, but analogous things are; I was trying to give a theoretical example of when it's a bad idea to speculate about roles.
As to your other question, the post that particularly annoyed me was eevee's where eevee argued that galzria almost certainly had a power role. I more or less indirectly quoted this post.
I should have used the word role-speculating rather than rolefishing. I don't think role-speculating is a scumtell, I just think it's a mistake (because it does the rolefishing for the scum without making the scum do it). I didn't want to call out eevee by name because I didn't want to start a wagon.
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I tend to agree - I've been generally against goofy claiming (side / seat / suit), but I've also never had a role that made use of that information in a meaningful way. However - your specific stance made me nervous. What makes you think that scum have more card related information than town does?
Mod Question: ## Will cards be revealed on death? ##
I guess I just don't see enough information out there that would lead me to believe that card claiming at L-1 should be avoided - and yet eHunt is out there discouraging it.
This is my post 1b. If the size of the scumteam is x, then the scumteam knows about x cards, whereas each townie knows only about 1 card. Therefore, they are more likely to be able to guess what the connection between cards and everything else is. Therefore, information helps them more than it helps town. See my post from yesterday for a speculative, but concrete, example of how this could go down.
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This is my post 2.
There are two primary components to mafia. One is psychological, and the other is mathematical/strategic. The presence of special roles highly accentuates the second aspect of the game. I will abbreviate the mathematical component as "theory."
F.DS is really bad at theory, and towns lose over and over because of it. I have no problem with being bossy on theory issues. For example, it's mathematically completely straightforward that the parity of the total population should be odd. Town does better with n town and m mafia than with n+1 town and m mafia when n + m is odd. You can easily check this with a computer if you don't believe me. Despite this basic fact, town lost MXI exclusively because a vigilante caused an even parity at LyLo, and lost MVIII at least partially for this reason (though town was in bad shape by that point in MVIII). This mistake is akin to something like opening mint/pearl diver. I have no problem being blunt about theory issues.
Now, if I've been bossy in a manner that people find rude, I sincerely apologize (and please call me out on it). I can't stand playing with people who call everyone an "idiot" over minor things. I certainly also make theory mistakes. I'm also not good at all at the psychological component of the game. But when I'm right about something theoretical, I'm going to be bold about it.
If the "bossiness" refers to my suggestion that others post infrequently but with more substance, see my answer below.
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I have no problem with you being bossy about math.
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This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.
Now, there's one answer to this argument which I think bears a specific rebuttal. Cayvie says that people who talk spontaneously give us better reads. I don't know. I know that I got absolutely brutalized in MIX for reflexive phone-posting, causing town to lynch a doctor. Now, some of my wagon was scum, and obviously scum, and my death dragged them out, but I don't think it was worth it. Something similar happened in MVI. I thought that if I just posted all my thoughts without editing at all, it would be clear that I wasn't keeping any information from the town. Instead, my every typo became a "scumslip" and I said something foolish about a hypothetical Frisk proposed about which order theorel and I should be lynched in which caused an L - 1 wagon on me. If that wagon hadn't been boosted along by a bogus investirole-claim by ozle which was discovered to be fake due to it contradicting an earlier post of his, it would have been toodles for ehunt (and theorel would have gotten bogus town-cred out of it).
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Despite this basic fact, town lost MXI exclusively because a vigilante caused an even parity at LyLo, and lost MVIII at least partially for this reason (though town was in bad shape by that point in MVIII).
ehunt, this game is M-XI. Which game are you thinking of?
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post number 2.5, answering voltgloss since it's a typo, i should have said IX. If Morgrim hadn't killed Galzria, you'd be presumably end-gamed. Am I wrong? I didn't read the endgame carefully. Anyway, just an example of theory-errors.
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This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.
Now, there's one answer to this argument which I think bears a specific rebuttal. Cayvie says that people who talk spontaneously give us better reads. I don't know. I know that I got absolutely brutalized in MIX for reflexive phone-posting, causing town to lynch a doctor. Now, some of my wagon was scum, and obviously scum, and my death dragged them out, but I don't think it was worth it. Something similar happened in MVI. I thought that if I just posted all my thoughts without editing at all, it would be clear that I wasn't keeping any information from the town. Instead, my every typo became a "scumslip" and I said something foolish about a hypothetical Frisk proposed about which order theorel and I should be lynched in which caused an L - 1 wagon on me. If that wagon hadn't been boosted along by a bogus investirole-claim by ozle which was discovered to be fake due to it contradicting an earlier post of his, it would have been toodles for ehunt (and theorel would have gotten bogus town-cred out of it).
This is what we mean when we say you're bossy, actually.
Also, kinda sounds like you're worried about making a scumslip.
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Post number 4. What's with the ehunt wagon? jo votes me because I don't want the town to talk about anything. How is that possibly a better vote than the lurkers who are actually not talking?
There is plenty to talk about. There was the DSell wagon. Now there's the shraeye wagon and the ehunt wagon. The thing not to talk about is roles, cards, "theory" aspects of the game, because of the asymmetric situation; the scumteams have x role PMs to read (where x is the number on the scumteam) and a townie has 1. I consider this to be a theory issue, and I don't want to talk about it. I didn't want to talk about the double-vote before, but the cat is out of the bag; more on that later.
I believe the second ehunt vote is this:
Vote: ehunt
I have to say I was initially on board with ehunts idea; with such a large number of players I was smitten with the idea of less clutter more content. But as people actually started to refute this as being a bad idea it made me reevaluate my initial thoughts. Maybe its good in theory, bad in practice? Id rather encourage people to give themselves plenty of opportunities (through posting often) to produce inconsistent ideas which can be evaluated by the group. There might be more "junk" to sift through but all in all talking is good.
I don't get it. We disagree about an idea (how much signal-to-noise ratio should there be), therefore you vote for me? I am giving you a pass because you are new, but "we disagree on a theoretical issue" is not in and of itself a reason to vote. "We disagree on a theoretical issue and I think you know that I am right about the theoretical issue but you are intentionally trying to mislead the town into going the wrong way on the theoretical issue" - that would be a reason to vote for me. Is that why you voted for me? If so, you need to say it.
eevee says I assume stuff only scum could know. I don't think I do this, I think I've answered this argument already; let me know if you want more explanation.
galzria (who is not on the wagon) says he has bad feelings about me. I don't know how to answer that argument.
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my post 5. the shraeye wagon: I don't get it. His statement about "I got caught" is immediately preceded by a hypothetical sarcastic remark in which he implies he's mafia. It is obviously sarcastic. I don't see how this is still up for debate. I certainly don't see how it merits the number of votes that it got. The person who quoted this out of context (cayvie) almost immediately corrected herself, and yet it has gotten replicated over and over. Morgrim seems to think shraeye made two scumsclips, which I don't understand at all.
Either scum is jumping on his wagon because they are too lazy to read the case, or town is getting drowned out by the noise and doesn't notice factual things (he was being sarcastic and the person who called him out on it has admitted as much). This is yet another reason why I dislike when people post every thought that comes to their minds without considering the implications.
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Post number 7. Shraeye.
Shraeye's behavior has become noticeably ruder. You can just say "I don't know what actilurking means, can you explain?" There's no reason to say "I looked it up and, oh wait, it wasn't in the dictionary" (that's not a direct quote). This is totally out of character for Shraeye. In MIX Shraeye was very polite and, moreover, was a big believer in "everyone calm down and take a breather; we can argue later," (not a direct quote) a position that I have come around to. So this is a sea change in personality. Now I'm not sure that rudeness is a scumtell (although I have found that scum are ruder in f.ds games than town, in general), but change in personality is weird. It merits explanation.
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I seem to have missed a post, because I wanted to talk about the double-vote a little more.
Post number ???. The cat is out of the bag on the double-vote. We don't get the mechanics, but it is what it is. There's no use trying to hide it from the mafia. Earlier, I speculated that the double-vote made DSell look townier. I retract that claim. I thought that DSell might be equipped with the role "hated" (which means it takes one fewer person to lynch you) and that hated seemed like a better role for a townie than for scum. Now that we know this isn't true I don't mind being more vocal about it; sorry that my earlier post was so cryptic.
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Post number 7. Shraeye.
Shraeye's behavior has become noticeably ruder. You can just say "I don't know what actilurking means, can you explain?" There's no reason to say "I looked it up and, oh wait, it wasn't in the dictionary" (that's not a direct quote). This is totally out of character for Shraeye. In MIX Shraeye was very polite and, moreover, was a big believer in "everyone calm down and take a breather; we can argue later," (not a direct quote) a position that I have come around to. So this is a sea change in personality. Now I'm not sure that rudeness is a scumtell (although I have found that scum are ruder in f.ds games than town, in general), but change in personality is weird. It merits explanation.
pot, kettle, etc.
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Post number 8. The lurkers. O has certainly been online, and he's been mod-prodded. I think in a town this big a policy-vote on a lurker is a must. However, I plan to revert my vote to DSell once we hear (substance) from O.
ibgtennis is a special case, because he's so new, like zkcvbn in MVI. I'm not happy to policy-vote for a noob just because he doesn't show up. I think he should be substituted out if he doesn't show up; the mod has encouraged patience and I will try to exhibit it (I'm not great at it).
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Post number 7. Shraeye.
Shraeye's behavior has become noticeably ruder. You can just say "I don't know what actilurking means, can you explain?" There's no reason to say "I looked it up and, oh wait, it wasn't in the dictionary" (that's not a direct quote). This is totally out of character for Shraeye. In MIX Shraeye was very polite and, moreover, was a big believer in "everyone calm down and take a breather; we can argue later," (not a direct quote) a position that I have come around to. So this is a sea change in personality. Now I'm not sure that rudeness is a scumtell (although I have found that scum are ruder in f.ds games than town, in general), but change in personality is weird. It merits explanation.
pot, kettle, etc.
I really don't think I have behaved rudely in this game. I would like others to comment on this. If you think I am wrong, that's one thing, and we can argue about it; if you think I am rude, tell me and I will try to change.
Jo, I called you out for making substanceless posts; that's not rudeness, that's the point of the game, to call out people who are making it harder for the town to win.
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point of clarification (last post for the day): I don't mean to say shraeye is rude and it's so unpleasant that I can't stand it, or that shraeye should apologize, or anything like that. I just mean to say it's weird that shraeye is being rude when shraeye was so civil in the other game.
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I just mean you're playing WAAYYY different than you did in MVI. Where you were also nicer. Also, didn't you post like 27 consecutive drunk posts? And now you're saying I post too much noise?
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I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
Scumslip?
"I can't believe I got caught" vs. "I can't believe people suspect me".
I mean, you can argue that you meant the latter, but then it's kind of ironic since you're talking about using language accurately...
Amusing scumslip. Right up there with Captain_Frisk's 0% chance of flipping town.
...although what's most interesting to me is the way yuma and Dsell immediately tried to change the subject to O. If in the future one of those three flip scum, we should carefully reevaluate the other two.
This bothers me from Volt. Volt just plain knows better. Shraeye was obviously being sarcastic. I thought it was so obvious it didn't even merit comment. The fact that I was thinking the same way as yuma about something I am actually interested in does matter. I want O to come and face us, unless he knows that his many past scumbuddies will see straight through his play.
PPE: Oops ehunt, looks like you forgot to vote for me!
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(although I have found that scum are ruder in f.ds games than town, in general)
...really? What games/players are you thinking of? I think it vastly depends on the player (some are ruder as scum, some are ruder as town, some swing heavily between rude and not-rude in the same game (e.g., in response to heavy suspicion), some tend to maintain a pretty even keel) and therefore isn't prone to generalization.
Ah, but I forget we're not supposed to talk about players' meta, so I guess we can't get into the evidence that may support or rebut this sweeping assertion.
PPE: ehunt, here's the thing:
1. Telling other players "in the future, you can't talk about XYZ" is bossy and rude.
2. Calling out another player "the posts you have previously made lack substance" is scumhunting.
I think people should be able to talk about whatever they want to talk about. The more people say, the more we have to analyze. If the result of that analysis is "person X talks and talks but never actually SAYS anything," then that person is suspicious. But we're never going to get that read if it's acceptable - indeed, required - that person X only post once a day or somesuch.
ehunt, your "one big post a day" approach - if followed by everyone - would make the game easier to play. There'd be less to read, less to follow, less to keep track of. But here's the problem: it also risks making it easier for scum to hide (and, therefore, win).
Getting people to chatter and then analyzing that chatter is one of Town's biggest weapons. Limiting chatter, therefore, reads to me as anti-town.
FWIW, I agree with you that shraeye's behavior here is vastly different from M-IX (where he was town). I also agree with jo that your behavior here is vastly different from M-VI and M-IX (where you were town). I haven't decided yet what to take away from that. I think what I'd like to see is you and shraeye both talk more.
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Amusing scumslip. Right up there with Captain_Frisk's 0% chance of flipping town.
...although what's most interesting to me is the way yuma and Dsell immediately tried to change the subject to O. If in the future one of those three flip scum, we should carefully reevaluate the other two.
This bothers me from Volt. Volt just plain knows better. Shraeye was obviously being sarcastic. I thought it was so obvious it didn't even merit comment. The fact that I was thinking the same way as yuma about something I am actually interested in does matter. I want O to come and face us, unless he knows that his many past scumbuddies will see straight through his play.
I figured shraeye was being sarcastic, yes. That's why I called it "amusing" and didn't actually VOTE for him.
But if shraeye is scum, and you and/or yuma are his scumbuddies, you (or yuma) may have been worried that shraeye WASN'T being sarcastic, and thus searching for some way to divert the conversation elsewhere.
It doesn't paint any of the three of you as scummy. Yet. But if one of you flips scum in the future - it's a point to take into account when analyzing the remaining two.
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Pretty sure I called out shraeye before cayvie did, even if she made it bigger than I did. cayvie's #364 gives plenty of non-scumslip reasons for suspecting shraeye. Making a fuss about a portmanteau is ridiculous. English is a mess of a language anyways. Was Shakespeare an idiot for making up a new word every 5 pages?
Making a fuss about the English language is irrelevent at best but being a similarly nitpicky person about my own set of things, I could see why someone is motivated to post regarding their opinions on the English language. I dont think necessarily having opinions and expressing them is an attempt to derail conversation and provide a lack of content.
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What content has there been in shraeye's posts? Sure there has been some, there's some in everyone's posts. There hasn't been anything noteworthy enough to warrant your passionate defense. Your first paragraph is a bit contradictory in that shraeye was the one who unnecessarily made a big deal about the word in the first place, instead of just asking about it in the first place. Shouldn't that cause you to be more suspicious of him?
I dont intend to argue that Shraeye is full of awesome talking points, I just sad a lot of his posts had content. I bring this up specifically to outline that people are avoiding responding to what content there is by talking about irrelevent dribble. I dont care what content hes providing, I care that people are avoiding it. As an example:
For clarity, I'm pretty sure ehunt's "generally confusing thing" is referencing the invisible/extra/mystery vote on DSell, right? It was frustrating that he never actually named it in his post and just called it "the GCT." I don't think that a secret vote on DSell is any indication of towniness one way or the other. Totally neutral read on DSell because of that. I agree that wild speculation on why it was there or what it means is not useful. Here's what we townies take away from it: there is something unusual that can happen with votes, now we know about it and can account for it (hopefully).
Also,
Hi all, just wanted to drop in and say I'm not acti-lurking, just doing regular weekend life stuff, and trying to keep up.
I will mention Eevee is the same ole Eevee, Morgrim a very new Morgrim (liking it!), and the rest of you are still unmolded clay. I noticed talk of cards started and stopped very quickly; I think it's for the best to leave that to subsequent days.
Good, I was really worried you were "acti-lurking." Oh wait, no I wasn't, because that isn't a word. In more serious news, "talk of cards" never actually started; ehunt said "it's not a good thing to broadcast, don't do it." End of discussion. I suppose if I take "stopped very quickly" to mean instantly, you are right. Otherwise, you do not know what it means to start talking about things.
Any other noise I would account for with him just having to respond to the nonsense that is being brought up by people who are accusing him. To reiterate, I'm not saying I agree with him or that all he says is gold. I'm saying that I am suspicious of people who chose to continue to respond to nonsense instead of something he actually said instead of saying nothing at all and letting the nonsense die.
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Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
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I get kind of a bad vibe from you, but that might just be because I've never played a game with you before this.
Yeah, I understand full well that I might be giving weird vibes to those who dont know me. If I were to defend myself, I would say that in general I strongly dislike the fact that most of the talking points thus far are on things that I consider irrelevent. As such I am only "defending Shraeye" to the point that we can move on. If that makes me scum so be it.
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I can't help myself. I don't think I am playing differently from how I played in any of the other games, except that I am posting less frequently (which I said I would do before I received my role PM, because I don't have time/want to invest my whole life in a mafia game again).
Voltgloss: "speculating about people's metas" is OK. Saying "what role do we think Robz would give this person, given this person's meta" is what I am trying to avoid. It may be bossy to tell people what not to talk about, but it's not rude and I don't apologize. I want to stop townies from inadvertently helping scum before they do it, not after.
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This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.
Now, there's one answer to this argument which I think bears a specific rebuttal. Cayvie says that people who talk spontaneously give us better reads. I don't know. I know that I got absolutely brutalized in MIX for reflexive phone-posting, causing town to lynch a doctor. Now, some of my wagon was scum, and obviously scum, and my death dragged them out, but I don't think it was worth it. Something similar happened in MVI. I thought that if I just posted all my thoughts without editing at all, it would be clear that I wasn't keeping any information from the town. Instead, my every typo became a "scumslip" and I said something foolish about a hypothetical Frisk proposed about which order theorel and I should be lynched in which caused an L - 1 wagon on me. If that wagon hadn't been boosted along by a bogus investirole-claim by ozle which was discovered to be fake due to it contradicting an earlier post of his, it would have been toodles for ehunt (and theorel would have gotten bogus town-cred out of it).
This is what we mean when we say you're bossy, actually.
Also, kinda sounds like you're worried about making a scumslip.
I wasn't going to answer this earlier since I think it's just a snipe, but since I'm breaking my own rule anyway for voltgloss: I am worried that what I say will be misperceived as a scumslip, for certain. If I just blindly type things and one of them gets misperceived as a scumslip, that's really bad for town. Yuma pointed this out to me early Day III in MVIII when I was phone-posting and inadvertently causing an ehunt-wagon in the process. So I am trying more to think before I talk. And I find that waiting a little bit helps. If a day is too much, fine, but I posit I've posted a lot more of substance than people who have made more posts.
I also think it's unconscionable that people would vote for me before voting for someone who hasn't posted yet. It's like "oh man, f.ds meta sucks, lurking is way too OP. Therefore, vote for whoever makes posts that have controversial suggestions in them."
Volt, I have no real data to back up my argument that ruder people are scum; it was my perspective in VI, VIII, and IX (not you in IX).
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I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...
Scumslip?
"I can't believe I got caught" vs. "I can't believe people suspect me".
I mean, you can argue that you meant the latter, but then it's kind of ironic since you're talking about using language accurately...
Amusing scumslip. Right up there with Captain_Frisk's 0% chance of flipping town.
...although what's most interesting to me is the way yuma and Dsell immediately tried to change the subject to O. If in the future one of those three flip scum, we should carefully reevaluate the other two.
This bothers me from Volt. Volt just plain knows better. Shraeye was obviously being sarcastic. I thought it was so obvious it didn't even merit comment. The fact that I was thinking the same way as yuma about something I am actually interested in does matter. I want O to come and face us, unless he knows that his many past scumbuddies will see straight through his play.
PPE: Oops ehunt, looks like you forgot to vote for me!
I said above that I don't intend to vote for you until we hear something of substance from O (whom I'm currently voting for).
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let me just reiterate my Vote: ehunt
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Yeah I'm not sure what to make of ehunt. This is just weird. It's not exactly scummy, but it's making it hard for me to get any sort of read. I agree with some of what you say though, ehunt, but I'm really confused about where your suspicion of me is coming from. I'm not bothered by a few votes on me but you aren't giving any sort of reason, whereas you are giving detailed reason for everything else you're doing.
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eHunt it is super anti-town to post once a day, because you don't answer any questions that become directed at you or posts that are directed at you like this one.
An aside did you think I was rude in MIX? What about MVIII?
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I guess ehunt is actually done so I will respond. eHunt actually addresses my point. I just dont like the idea of squelching people ever.
I don't get it. We disagree about an idea (how much signal-to-noise ratio should there be), therefore you vote for me? I am giving you a pass because you are new, but "we disagree on a theoretical issue" is not in and of itself a reason to vote. "We disagree on a theoretical issue and I think you know that I am right about the theoretical issue but you are intentionally trying to mislead the town into going the wrong way on the theoretical issue" - that would be a reason to vote for me. Is that why you voted for me? If so, you need to say it.
I would say thats pretty much accurate. I had acknowledged that I agreed with you in theory. The only information I had was your one post stating that sticking to a one-post-a-day style will be beneficial. Some people had taken this to mean a much looser interpretation of "ehunt favors lower post counts filled with more content" whereas I took it to mean literally you only wanted people to post once a day. Now that you have clarified that you meant the former, I am less upset (not that I was actually upset before, even if it seemed that way). I would agree with the former; I want more content and less people discussing things that dont matter.
Also I dont care if you agree with this, and having real life time constraints is a thing, but I dont like the self limiting that you are doing. I would rather see you respond to me posting then keep your word that your machine gun of posts is all you will be saying for today.
If I just blindly type things and one of them gets misperceived as a scumslip, that's really bad for town.
I dont like that you use the word "misperceived." Feels like you are trying too hard to plant that you are town so that when you make a scumslip it would be a mistake to act on it. Subtle, but I dont like it.
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vote:Ehunt
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vote:Ehunt
he lives! unvote
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vote:Ehunt
he lives! unvote
I dont think him showing up only to vote for ehunt without giving a reason is enough to give him the pass on being inactive. I would personally want to see more if that was my only basis for voting for O.
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eHunt it is super anti-town to post once a day, because you don't answer any questions that become directed at you or posts that are directed at you like this one.
An aside did you think I was rude in MIX? What about MVIII?
You were quite flippant in MIX. "hammerino" in the post where you kill the town doctor e.g. In MVIII you were polite except in the late-game with your exchanges with theorel where you would ignore what he said and just post something you had already said that he had answered three posts ago but in a more sarcastic manner, which was very frustrating. Ironically, you are doing exactly that now to me.
To all: It sounds like this is a majority opinion, that I should post more. I do not have time to answer all questions that are addressed to me. I am happy to move to twice-a-day-post-fests, but I can't commit to more than that. I said before the game started that I won't be able to insta-respond at all times like I used to. If that is not enough, tell me and I will try to find a sub.
I continue to think that it's ridiculous that people would rather vote for me (who is posting less) than vote for people who haven't posted at all.
TheMunch: how would you prefer that I worded that sentence you are upset about?
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my post 5. the shraeye wagon: I don't get it. His statement about "I got caught" is immediately preceded by a hypothetical sarcastic remark in which he implies he's mafia. It is obviously sarcastic. I don't see how this is still up for debate. I certainly don't see how it merits the number of votes that it got. The person who quoted this out of context (cayvie) almost immediately corrected herself, and yet it has gotten replicated over and over. Morgrim seems to think shraeye made two scumsclips, which I don't understand at all.
Either scum is jumping on his wagon because they are too lazy to read the case, or town is getting drowned out by the noise and doesn't notice factual things (he was being sarcastic and the person who called him out on it has admitted as much). This is yet another reason why I dislike when people post every thought that comes to their minds without considering the implications.
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Whoops, copy+paste error.
This is my post 2.
There are two primary components to mafia. One is psychological, and the other is mathematical/strategic. The presence of special roles highly accentuates the second aspect of the game. I will abbreviate the mathematical component as "theory."
F.DS is really bad at theory, and towns lose over and over because of it. I have no problem with being bossy on theory issues. For example, it's mathematically completely straightforward that the parity of the total population should be odd. Town does better with n town and m mafia than with n+1 town and m mafia when n + m is odd. You can easily check this with a computer if you don't believe me. Despite this basic fact, town lost MXI exclusively because a vigilante caused an even parity at LyLo, and lost MVIII at least partially for this reason (though town was in bad shape by that point in MVIII). This mistake is akin to something like opening mint/pearl diver. I have no problem being blunt about theory issues.
What? This is MXI. Do you mean MIX? I thought town lost because SK Voltgloss had some weird super-voting power.
This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.
Your original post really wasn't phrased that way. It didn't even seem to suggest one big post + other little posts.
If everyone makes fewer posts in an effort to make posts more substantive... what will we all post about? We need something to discuss, and the conversational posts are what get us those topics. You might criticize a little post as "noise", but without that noise, you have nothing to criticize!
my post 5. the shraeye wagon: I don't get it. His statement about "I got caught" is immediately preceded by a hypothetical sarcastic remark in which he implies he's mafia. It is obviously sarcastic. I don't see how this is still up for debate. I certainly don't see how it merits the number of votes that it got. The person who quoted this out of context (cayvie) almost immediately corrected herself, and yet it has gotten replicated over and over. Morgrim seems to think shraeye made two scumsclips, which I don't understand at all.
Either scum is jumping on his wagon because they are too lazy to read the case, or town is getting drowned out by the noise and doesn't notice factual things (he was being sarcastic and the person who called him out on it has admitted as much). This is yet another reason why I dislike when people post every thought that comes to their minds without considering the implications.
I'm the first person to quote it, not cayvie. She quoted it immediately after me though; we posted just about simultaneously. It's not still up for debate. Some people aren't following the conversation, but most are on the ball.
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(And I did read the post where you said that, yes, you meant MIX. Subsequent point stands -- Volt had super votes, didn't he?)
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vote:Ehunt
he lives! unvote
I dont think him showing up only to vote for ehunt without giving a reason is enough to give him the pass on being inactive. I would personally want to see more if that was my only basis for voting for O.
True, but my reason to vote him was to prevent his first post being a hammer (that is that I would rather have had him at L-1 then another player at L-1 and him threatening to hammer). Now that this is impossible I unvoted, but could certainly see myself voting him in the future. It isn't a free pass.
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To all: It sounds like this is a majority opinion, that I should post more. I do not have time to answer all questions that are addressed to me. I am happy to move to twice-a-day-post-fests, but I can't commit to more than that. I said before the game started that I won't be able to insta-respond at all times like I used to. If that is not enough, tell me and I will try to find a sub.
Post as much or as little as you want. Just don't tell other people how much to post.
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
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To all: It sounds like this is a majority opinion, that I should post more. I do not have time to answer all questions that are addressed to me. I am happy to move to twice-a-day-post-fests, but I can't commit to more than that. I said before the game started that I won't be able to insta-respond at all times like I used to. If that is not enough, tell me and I will try to find a sub.
Post as much or as little as you want. Just don't tell other people how much to post.
I'm going to continue to call you out for noisemaking, if that's what you mean. It's anti-town. But I no longer recommend that others follow my one-a-day strategy; I see that it doesn't work once you come under pressure.
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eHunt it is super anti-town to post once a day, because you don't answer any questions that become directed at you or posts that are directed at you like this one.
An aside did you think I was rude in MIX? What about MVIII?
You were quite flippant in MIX. "hammerino" in the post where you kill the town doctor e.g. In MVIII you were polite except in the late-game with your exchanges with theorel where you would ignore what he said and just post something you had already said that he had answered three posts ago but in a more sarcastic manner, which was very frustrating. Ironically, you are doing exactly that now to me.
To all: It sounds like this is a majority opinion, that I should post more. I do not have time to answer all questions that are addressed to me. I am happy to move to twice-a-day-post-fests, but I can't commit to more than that. I said before the game started that I won't be able to insta-respond at all times like I used to. If that is not enough, tell me and I will try to find a sub.
I continue to think that it's ridiculous that people would rather vote for me (who is posting less) than vote for people who haven't posted at all.
TheMunch: how would you prefer that I worded that sentence you are upset about?
Actually in MIX I hammered you for game reasons, I wanted people to know that I knew I was hammering you because its a scummy slot to be in, so I wanted to use it to WIFOM my way out but I got shot anyway.
I'm not saying you need to post more only that I don't think limiting yourself is extremely useful it'd be nice if when you did get a chance you took the time to respond. And I already talked about M8 but I really had theorel blinders on and didn't think he was addressing my case (I still don't). I have not voted for you I'm on a lurker, also I don't feel like I'm being sarcastic to you but that I am asking you valid questions.
PPE: That said you aren't following your own restriction very well so I probably have 0 qualms with you.
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I was scared for a minute when he voted for you that you wouldn't deliver on your promise!
Oh and ehunt, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
Ok,
Policy lynch for your bad Meta.
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I was scared for a minute when he voted for you that you wouldn't deliver on your promise!
Oh and ehunt, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I already did. You Morgrim-hunted, then when called out on it, said it was RVS, exactly like Frisk when he was scum in MIX. I unvoted you because the double-vote I thought made you "hated" which I thought was more likely to be townie than scum, but when that theory was disproven I said I'd revote for you once we heard from O, which is what I just did. None of these claims are new.
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
Ok,
Policy lynch for your bad Meta.
by "meta" you mean post less frequently? If that meta is bad - how is your meta better? you haven't posted at all except this one and the otherwise empty post voting for me.
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ehunt: To fix your sentence I would have not said anything about how whether or not people notice a scumslip, either correctly or incorrectly implicating you as scum, has any baring on what is or isn't good for town. For example if you had said "I would be disappointed if things I say are perceived as scumslips entirely as a result of my blindly typing them" I would probably have been happier. You making a scumslip falls on you, not the town unless we KNOW you are town. We dont know you are town.
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I was scared for a minute when he voted for you that you wouldn't deliver on your promise!
Oh and ehunt, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I already did. You Morgrim-hunted, then when called out on it, said it was RVS, exactly like Frisk when he was scum in MIX. I unvoted you because the double-vote I thought made you "hated" which I thought was more likely to be townie than scum, but when that theory was disproven I said I'd revote for you once we heard from O, which is what I just did. None of these claims are new.
RVS...I do not think it means what you think it means...
It's a stage that includes random and joke voting. Did you really think I was trying to get someone policy lynched on the first pages of a 25-player game before that person had posted anything? Sheesh. I unvoted like...the next page.
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TheMunch! No editing posts!
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I was scared for a minute when he voted for you that you wouldn't deliver on your promise!
Oh and ehunt, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I already did. You Morgrim-hunted, then when called out on it, said it was RVS, exactly like Frisk when he was scum in MIX. I unvoted you because the double-vote I thought made you "hated" which I thought was more likely to be townie than scum, but when that theory was disproven I said I'd revote for you once we heard from O, which is what I just did. None of these claims are new.
RVS...I do not think it means what you think it means...
It's a stage that includes random and joke voting. Did you really think I was trying to get someone policy lynched on the first pages of a 25-player game before that person had posted anything? Sheesh. I unvoted like...the next page.
Oh hey did I say I unvoted the next page? I meant the VERY SAME PAGE. Yikes.
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I was scared for a minute when he voted for you that you wouldn't deliver on your promise!
Oh and ehunt, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I already did. You Morgrim-hunted, then when called out on it, said it was RVS, exactly like Frisk when he was scum in MIX. I unvoted you because the double-vote I thought made you "hated" which I thought was more likely to be townie than scum, but when that theory was disproven I said I'd revote for you once we heard from O, which is what I just did. None of these claims are new.
RVS...I do not think it means what you think it means...
It's a stage that includes random and joke voting. Did you really think I was trying to get someone policy lynched on the first pages of a 25-player game before that person had posted anything? Sheesh. I unvoted like...the next page.
Oh hey did I say I unvoted the next page? I meant the VERY SAME PAGE. Yikes.
OK, I went back to write a scathing post with quotations proving that you only unvoted after someone called you out for morgrim-hunting, which is a scumtell, but upon re-read, you're just correct on this argument. unvote
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vote:Ehunt
vote: Dsell as promised, although it's a stretch to argue that this post is substance. O, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I was scared for a minute when he voted for you that you wouldn't deliver on your promise!
Oh and ehunt, I would like you to please make a post explaining why you are voting for me.
I already did. You Morgrim-hunted, then when called out on it, said it was RVS, exactly like Frisk when he was scum in MIX. I unvoted you because the double-vote I thought made you "hated" which I thought was more likely to be townie than scum, but when that theory was disproven I said I'd revote for you once we heard from O, which is what I just did. None of these claims are new.
RVS...I do not think it means what you think it means...
It's a stage that includes random and joke voting. Did you really think I was trying to get someone policy lynched on the first pages of a 25-player game before that person had posted anything? Sheesh. I unvoted like...the next page.
Oh hey did I say I unvoted the next page? I meant the VERY SAME PAGE. Yikes.
OK, I went back to write a scathing post with quotations proving that you only unvoted after someone called you out for morgrim-hunting, which is a scumtell, but upon re-read, you're just correct on this argument. unvote
(translation from terrible sentence to english: DSell is not guilty of the crime of which I accused him.)
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It's ok ehunt, I forgive you. I'm just glad that your one-post-a-day rule is letting you keep such a clear head.
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It's ok ehunt, I forgive you. I'm just glad that your one-post-a-day rule is letting you keep such a clear head.
can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but, clearly, the one-post-a-day-rule is not working and my head is not clear :-)
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It's ok ehunt, I forgive you. I'm just glad that your one-post-a-day rule is letting you keep such a clear head.
can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but, clearly, the one-post-a-day-rule is not working and my head is not clear :-)
It was definitely sarcastic. Tbh I'm acti(ve)-lurking a bit right now because I find that staying out of the main arguments helps my reads somewhat day 1. Before everyone goes ballistic, I did this same thing on day 1 of BMV and almost drove a successful wagon on scum and FOS'd another...I can't really talk about that game yet since it's ongoing but you can go look for yourselves.
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It's ok ehunt, I forgive you. I'm just glad that your one-post-a-day rule is letting you keep such a clear head.
can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but, clearly, the one-post-a-day-rule is not working and my head is not clear :-)
It was definitely sarcastic. Tbh I'm acti(ve)-lurking a bit right now because I find that staying out of the main arguments helps my reads somewhat day 1. Before everyone goes ballistic, I did this same thing on day 1 of BMV and almost drove a successful wagon on scum and FOS'd another...I can't really talk about that game yet since it's ongoing but you can go look for yourselves.
Only useful if we assume you're not scum yourself. And since you're still alive, we can't know that, can we?
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It's ok ehunt, I forgive you. I'm just glad that your one-post-a-day rule is letting you keep such a clear head.
can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but, clearly, the one-post-a-day-rule is not working and my head is not clear :-)
It was definitely sarcastic. Tbh I'm acti(ve)-lurking a bit right now because I find that staying out of the main arguments helps my reads somewhat day 1. Before everyone goes ballistic, I did this same thing on day 1 of BMV and almost drove a successful wagon on scum and FOS'd another...I can't really talk about that game yet since it's ongoing but you can go look for yourselves.
Only useful if we assume you're not scum yourself. And since you're still alive, we can't know that, can we?
Nope, you can't! But day 1 is such a crapshoot as it is that I figured it couldn't really hurt. If I see something that is legitimately scummy or what have you, I'll point it out. But making mountains of molehills only helps scum.
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TheMunch! No editing posts!
Policy Vote: TheMunch to make sure he doesn't miss this.
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Vote: O .
O has a habit of using "lolz I'm O" to disguise seriously scummy behavior when he's scum. Medical mafia, where he jumped on my RVS wagon with the "hey I'm me I just trOll and am not scummy" justification. I haven't forgotten. And it's working, too! He made a post, got a vote and a postcount, somebody unvoted him, and he's still said nothing!
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Vote Count 1.6
igbtennis (1) -- Insomniac
shraeye (7) -- Cayvie, Glooble, Axxle, ashersky, Morgrim7, watno
ehunt (4) -- Jotheonah, TheMunch, Eevee, O
Voltgloss (1) -- shraeye
O (2) -- Voltaire, ftl
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (9) -- Voltgloss, Young Nick, Cuzz, igbtennis, eHalcyon, Galzria, Dsell, yuma, ehunt
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
***A reminder: NO EDITING POSTS! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, THEMUNCH***
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Shraeye still has 7 votes, wow. Only 6 visible players I know, but still.. Lets not lynch him today.
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Well, O, your posts have been extremely unsatisfying but at least you showed up. So now I will vote: igbtennis to try to get the last lurker.
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Also Galz you haven't been your usual self this game, whats goin on over there? Playing an SK role?
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***A reminder: NO EDITING POSTS! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, THEMUNCH***
This somehow reminds me of Homestar runner - with constant references to "TheCheat"
A quality example:
The Cheat Is GROUNDED
http://homestarrunner.com/sbemail45.html
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***A reminder: NO EDITING POSTS! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, THEMUNCH***
This somehow reminds me of Homestar runner - with constant references to "TheCheat"
A quality example:
The Cheat Is GROUNDED
http://homestarrunner.com/sbemail45.html
+1 still one of my favourite sbemails topped only by "dragon"
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Also Galz you haven't been your usual self this game, whats goin on over there? Playing an SK role?
SK-hunting being a scumtell is one of the few scumtells I think actually are work somewhat often. FoS: Insomniac!
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***A reminder: NO EDITING POSTS! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED, THEMUNCH***
This somehow reminds me of Homestar runner - with constant references to "TheCheat"
A quality example:
The Cheat Is GROUNDED
http://homestarrunner.com/sbemail45.html
I am considering a vote on him until he changes his avatar to TheCheat.
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Also Galz you haven't been your usual self this game, whats goin on over there? Playing an SK role?
Can you elaborate? I'm not a Serial Killer however. I kind of wish that I was though, it'd be really fun to play one of these games, even if I was likely to lose. I'm not sure which Galzria meta would show up, town or scum... Or something new entirely? IDK. It'd be fun. But not today, no. Not this game.
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Also Galz you haven't been your usual self this game, whats goin on over there? Playing an SK role?
SK-hunting being a scumtell is one of the few scumtells I think actually are work somewhat often. FoS: Insomniac!
I can answer this and Galz's question in one point So I'll add Galz's post.
Also Galz you haven't been your usual self this game, whats goin on over there? Playing an SK role?
Can you elaborate? I'm not a Serial Killer however. I kind of wish that I was though, it'd be really fun to play one of these games, even if I was likely to lose. I'm not sure which Galzria meta would show up, town or scum... Or something new entirely? IDK. It'd be fun. But not today, no. Not this game.
You're not normally quite loud as scum or as town and this game I've found you to be a lot quieter and more pulled back then normal.
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So do we think we are going to be able to reach a majority vote? I am asking because I am afraid of what happened in MVIII and this has way more players?
Is there anything we need to do to make sure we don't have a no lynch? I know someone mentioned implementing a soft deadline in MXII--although they have that different time schedule with overlapping time, so that could nullify rationale to put a soft deadline on us.
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Also Galz you haven't been your usual self this game, whats goin on over there? Playing an SK role?
SK-hunting being a scumtell is one of the few scumtells I think actually are work somewhat often. FoS: Insomniac!
I can answer this and Galz's question in one point So I'll add Galz's post.
Also Galz you haven't been your usual self this game, whats goin on over there? Playing an SK role?
Can you elaborate? I'm not a Serial Killer however. I kind of wish that I was though, it'd be really fun to play one of these games, even if I was likely to lose. I'm not sure which Galzria meta would show up, town or scum... Or something new entirely? IDK. It'd be fun. But not today, no. Not this game.
You're not normally quite loud as scum or as town and this game I've found you to be a lot quieter and more pulled back then normal.
Well, to be fair, I missed all of yesterday because I ran a marathon in the morning, came home and got drunk with lots of pain killers, and passed out for the day. I was very active (arguably one of the most active) the first day, and made a massive post today to get myself back in and all caught up - and I've been active since then.
I'm also (don't ask me why) reading every post in ZM-2 and M-XII, and chatting it up in their respective QT's. Why I didn't just play them, I have no clue.
Anyway, I digress. Nope, not scum here, of any variety. And I'm trying to be "loud" or at the very least "active", but not only do I often hold back D1, but in a town this large, it's rather hard to "drive" the town in a way that you're used to Galzria doing.
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Sorry for editing my post! I seriously didn't know this was not a thing you were supposed to do. When writing my post I realized that I had used a double negative someplace so I changed it and had it saying "town" in a place that should have said "scum" given the changes to the negations of some statements for clarity. For hilarity I will change my avatar to the cheat shortly. Also why is editing posts a bad thing? It has a timestamp so you know that I did it right after I posted. I could see why you wouldn't want someone to edit their post from forever ago though.
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Sorry for editing my post! I seriously didn't know this was not a thing you were supposed to do. When writing my post I realized that I had used a double negative someplace so I changed it and had it saying "town" in a place that should have said "scum" given the changes to the negations of some statements for clarity. For hilarity I will change my avatar to the cheat shortly. Also why is editing posts a bad thing? It has a timestamp so you know that I did it right after I posted. I could see why you wouldn't want someone to edit their post from forever ago though.
I understand that you didn't alter it with nefarious intentions, but it has to be strictly prohibited, so we don't even have to wonder about why anything was edited. If you wish to fix errors, please just re-post and explain what you did wrong.
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And I like your new avatar, if only because Young Nick is also the Isotropic Contraband, and this will be less confusing when he returns.
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For hilarity I will change my avatar to the cheat shortly.
You need to post elsewhere in the forum so I can give you some +1 post love
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Sorry for editing my post! I seriously didn't know this was not a thing you were supposed to do. When writing my post I realized that I had used a double negative someplace so I changed it and had it saying "town" in a place that should have said "scum" given the changes to the negations of some statements for clarity. For hilarity I will change my avatar to the cheat shortly. Also why is editing posts a bad thing? It has a timestamp so you know that I did it right after I posted. I could see why you wouldn't want someone to edit their post from forever ago though.
If you could edit posts, then I could have fixed this:
I have 0% chance of flipping town
This was from M8, and I was completely accurate. I was scum, and indeed has a 0% chance of flipping town.
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Sorry for editing my post! I seriously didn't know this was not a thing you were supposed to do. When writing my post I realized that I had used a double negative someplace so I changed it and had it saying "town" in a place that should have said "scum" given the changes to the negations of some statements for clarity. For hilarity I will change my avatar to the cheat shortly. Also why is editing posts a bad thing? It has a timestamp so you know that I did it right after I posted. I could see why you wouldn't want someone to edit their post from forever ago though.
If you could edit posts, then I could have fixed this:
I have 0% chance of flipping town
This was from M8, and I was completely accurate. I was scum, and indeed has a 0% chance of flipping town.
Anddddddddd I called you on it but everyone was all meh it wasn't a scum slip just an honest mistake.
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You still got me!
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If you could edit posts, then I could have fixed this:
I have 0% chance of flipping town
This was from M8, and I was completely accurate. I was scum, and indeed has a 0% chance of flipping town.
Anddddddddd I called you on it but everyone was all meh it wasn't a scum slip just an honest mistake.
I agreed with you Insom! I was already dead though, for committing the cardinal "sin" of sussing out ScumRobz on Day 2 ;D
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Ok, I'm back. I will unvote because shraeye doesn't look scummy to me anymore.
Vote: Grujah for showing up, voting on me, and disappearing. Given my history I'm a really easily justified target, probably an excellent candidate for a scum-led day one lynch. Call this OMGUS if you want, but it stood out to me, and not in a good way.
ehunt, just a question of clarification - when you say "once a day", did you mean game day or real life day? Because I think that confusion might be why some people are jumping on you.
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Ok, I'm back. I will unvote because shraeye doesn't look scummy to me anymore.
Vote: Grujah for showing up, voting on me, and disappearing. Given my history I'm a really easily justified target, probably an excellent candidate for a scum-led day one lynch. Call this OMGUS if you want, but it stood out to me, and not in a good way.
ehunt, just a question of clarification - when you say "once a day", did you mean game day or real life day? Because I think that confusion might be why some people are jumping on you.
He pretty clearly means real life day.
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Ok, I'm back. I will unvote because shraeye doesn't look scummy to me anymore.
Vote: Grujah for showing up, voting on me, and disappearing. Given my history I'm a really easily justified target, probably an excellent candidate for a scum-led day one lynch. Call this OMGUS if you want, but it stood out to me, and not in a good way.
ehunt, just a question of clarification - when you say "once a day", did you mean game day or real life day? Because I think that confusion might be why some people are jumping on you.
What changed? I noticed you said he was suspicious for reasons not the scumslip. I called you out on it and farted to know your reasons. Then without addressing me you changed your vote off shraeye. What changed?
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farted?
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Ok, I'm back. I will unvote because shraeye doesn't look scummy to me anymore.
Vote: Grujah for showing up, voting on me, and disappearing. Given my history I'm a really easily justified target, probably an excellent candidate for a scum-led day one lynch. Call this OMGUS if you want, but it stood out to me, and not in a good way.
ehunt, just a question of clarification - when you say "once a day", did you mean game day or real life day? Because I think that confusion might be why some people are jumping on you.
What changed? I noticed you said he was suspicious for reasons not the scumslip. I called you out on it and farted to know your reasons. Then without addressing me you changed your vote off shraeye. What changed?
My original reason for voting him was basically that the whole "acti-lurking" post really looked like jumping on something for the sake of having something to jump on, which is something that scum do. What changed is everyone jumped on shraeye's "scumslip" and I realized that shraeye jumping on ashersky wasn't that different, and maybe this was just day one town desperately grasping for talking points. Then I decided shraeye wasn't scummy enough to have 7 votes on him.
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I think "wanted" was autocorrected to "farted". I can't wait to get a smart phone so I can made hilarious errors!
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Apologies for not addressing you. I read like 4 pages to catch up, and must have missed your question.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
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I think "wanted" was autocorrected to "farted". I can't wait to get a smart phone so I can made hilarious errors!
Yup, phone typo. Thanks for responding. I still would have liked to hear all of this much sooner. I think if, when you had voted Shraeye the first time, if you had included this information, maybe we would have been talking about Shraeye's intentions instead of talking about acti-lurking for pages on pages. As such I still think its very suspicious to have changed your vote around as you did with little to no information. On top of that I hold you personally responsible for the last 5 pages of junk, whether or not you read them. :P
Vote: Glooble
I'll give ehunt a pass for now. I still dont like how much hes trying to control the game. I still care about the small slip I called him on before, but that is less suspicious than what I feel about Glooble.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
Because it's bad town play if you're town and it's obvious so you must be scum...
...which I don't actually think makes sense, so no vote from me, but really, Fos: Eevee.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
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for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
Mmmmm I don't like this one bit. Let's not compound a mistake. Eevee, shhhhhhh!
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
I'm not sure I agree. It's a softclaim and a maybe-explanation for her future actions. But since those future actions are explicitly not scummy (she will try to avoid town wagons) and since it limits her future falseclaiming ability (if she were scum) it doesn't strike me as an overly scummy thing to say.
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for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
Mmmmm I don't like this one bit. Let's not compound a mistake. Eevee, shhhhhhh!
what?
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Welp, I'm not explaining further right now so give up on it :)
In fact, I feel like I said exactly what I wanted to in a clear and concise manner, and yuma is accusing me of the opposite and pressing for info which I've already said I'm unwilling to give.
vote: yuma
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for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
Mmmmm I don't like this one bit. Let's not compound a mistake. Eevee, shhhhhhh!
Vote: yuma for blatant rolefishing.
(Hi folks. Finally caught up. FoS on anyone who has ever used the word "acti-lurking," or criticized or defended anyone else for doing so, and this does now include myself).
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for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
ehunt, watch: here's how you respond to blatant rolefishing.
Vote: yuma
PPE: Ninja'd by Cuzz and cayvie. With whom I agree.
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well that was decisive.
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wow, wow, wow!
what just happened... i felt that cayvie posted a post that to me was confusing and that I didn't understand. I asked for clarification and now I am rolefishing? What does any of this have to do with role fishing?
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for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
Mmmmm I don't like this one bit. Let's not compound a mistake. Eevee, shhhhhhh!
what?
Yeah, I totally meant cayvie. Their names sound alike in my head.
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I was about to vote for yuma too, but seems everyone else did it already.
But actually it takes 1619 to lynch so Vote: yuma, u be fishing too much and I don't really see how cayvie's post can be read as scummy.
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wow, wow, wow!
what just happened... i felt that cayvie posted a post that to me was confusing and that I didn't understand. I asked for clarification and now I am rolefishing? What does any of this have to do with role fishing?
You did a little more than "asked for clarification". That was a very blatant rolefish, and you also voted for cayvie in the same post. Seemed more like an accusation than a question to me.
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wow, wow, wow!
what just happened... i felt that cayvie posted a post that to me was confusing and that I didn't understand. I asked for clarification and now I am rolefishing? What does any of this have to do with role fishing?
You played too well in ZM1 to not know what's going on here...so you know what, I still want tennis to stop lurking, but I'll go ahead and plop this down right here.
vote: Yuma
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
Because it's bad town play if you're town and it's obvious so you must be scum...
...which I don't actually think makes sense, so no vote from me, but really, Fos: Eevee.
Voltaire, what did you mean by this?
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Ugh!
Let's go back to the beginning:
Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
I read this and honestly, had no idea what it meant. I couldn't tell who cayvie was talking to, what she was talking about. Truthfully, it looked to me like an accidental post, like she was trying to communicate something else, had edited it partially and then posted it on accident. That is why it looked scummy and why I voted it. It was a weird, weird post... especially the part about (not specifying further). I had no idea as it having anything to do with roleclaiming or softclaiming or having anything to do with claiming.
But what I think it means no is that her role has some reason as to why she doesn't want to be part of wagons. Is that correct? Then why didn't she just say so?
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Here is my post.
for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
In this I say nothing about roles, or explaining more about roles, all I as for is that she explain it--it being her post, not her role!--more clearly, because I didn't understand it.
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vote: yuma
I have no idea how many this makes your wagon, but as soon as I read your post, my mind said vote yuma. Then I read on and other people's mind worked this way. Eevee was about to independently and got beat by everyone. voltgloss got ninja'd by the first two votes while trying to do it.
This isn't people sheeping a bad read. This is literally 4 different scum-radars going off at the same time.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
Because it's bad town play if you're town and it's obvious so you must be scum...
...which I don't actually think makes sense, so no vote from me, but really, Fos: Eevee.
Voltaire, what did you mean by this?
I meant everything I said, but accidentally said you instead of cayvie. (see post #501)
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Vote: Voltaire
It feels like you tried to drive a case against yuma and when it took off you joined the wagon.
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Vote: Voltaire
It feels like you tried to drive a case against yuma and when it took off you joined the wagon.
I actually wasn't - I was trying to make sure that my vote against Yuma (which I really wanted to make) wasn't piling on an accidental "scumslip," the history of which in f.ds is almost never actually a slip by scum (see C_F for the exception that proves the rule). Then, I realized this was Yuma we're talking about, and having just gone up against him in ZM1 I decided that town would know how terrible this is.
It could still be bad town play. But you are right - if it creates a wagon, that's delicious, delicious information for D2. I don't mind that one bit. I'll obviously pay attention to what happens from hereon out, but I'm comfortable with my vote here.
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Man, this game is interesting.
I feel like we crossed a threshold of players and wagons are forming lightning fast.
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@Voltaire
It is pretty weird though, you made the same mistake twice there?
@yuma
Cayvie says "just a heads up, my role doesn't want to be on townie lynch wagons, so I'll refrain for voting unless I'm really sure". You reply by voting for her and asking for an explanation. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that people want to vote you for this. If you are town, you made a pretty serious mistake (which sadly often are the basis of f.Ds day 1 lynch wagons), and should at the very least be apologizing, not acting all surprised by our reaction.
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Ugh!
Let's go back to the beginning:
Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
I read this and honestly, had no idea what it meant. I couldn't tell who cayvie was talking to, what she was talking about. Truthfully, it looked to me like an accidental post, like she was trying to communicate something else, had edited it partially and then posted it on accident. That is why it looked scummy and why I voted it. It was a weird, weird post... especially the part about (not specifying further). I had no idea as it having anything to do with roleclaiming or softclaiming or having anything to do with claiming.
But what I think it means no is that her role has some reason as to why she doesn't want to be part of wagons. Is that correct? Then why didn't she just say so?
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Here is my post.
for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
In this I say nothing about roles, or explaining more about roles, all I as for is that she explain it--it being her post, not her role!--more clearly, because I didn't understand it.
Hey man, that is not your original post. Here's the order of events. Cayvie talks. You say
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
So this isn't speculation and curiosity alone by you, you backed it up with a vote for some reason. I want you to explain why.
"Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote."
If this were your only problem, you would not have voted as town. Now since you wanted to reinforce "weird" vibes that people were getting from cayvie (i was getting those too) with a vote, this just seems to be a subtle push to get other "weird" thinkers to sheep you and have this instant-wagon on cayvie. That feels really scummy.
Also, cayvie is right. Her post does not tell all things, she made that intentional. But it isn't confusing, it is crystal clear what she means to say with that.
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@Voltaire
It is pretty weird though, you made the same mistake twice there?
@yuma
Cayvie says "just a heads up, my role doesn't want to be on townie lynch wagons, so I'll refrain for voting unless I'm really sure". You reply by voting for her and asking for an explanation. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that people want to vote you for this. If you are town, you made a pretty serious mistake (which sadly often are the basis of f.Ds day 1 lynch wagons), and should at the very least be apologizing, not acting all surprised by our reaction.
Yes, that's correct. I'm surprised it's the first (and second) time(s) this mistake has made it into a post - I do it in my head all the time.
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Vote Count 1.7
shraeye (5) -- Axxle, ashersky, Morgrim7, watno
ehunt (2) -- Jotheonah, O
O (1) -- ftl
Glooble (2) -- Grujah, TheMunch
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (1) -- Glooble
cayvie (1) -- yuma
yuma (6) -- cayvie, Cuzz, Voltgloss, Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Not Voting (6) -- Young Nick, igbtennis, eHalcyon, Galzria, Dsell, ehunt
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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@yuma
Cayvie says "just a heads up, my role doesn't want to be on townie lynch wagons, so I'll refrain for voting unless I'm really sure". You reply by voting for her and asking for an explanation. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that people want to vote you for this. If you are town, you made a pretty serious mistake (which sadly often are the basis of f.Ds day 1 lynch wagons), and should at the very least be apologizing, not acting all surprised by our reaction.
but she doesn't say "your quote" she said what she said. And it was confusing to me.
And I did apologize:
But what I think it means now is that her role has some reason as to why she doesn't want to be part of wagons. Is that correct? Then why didn't she just say so?
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
assuming that my current interpretation of it is correct, as opposed to my previous complete lack of interpretation.
And I am not surprised people are voting for me if they think I rolefished, I am surprised that they thought I was rolefishing, because my original interpretation of her post had nothing to do with roles! And neither did my request for her to explain.
So this isn't speculation and curiosity alone by you, you backed it up with a vote for some reason. I want you to explain why.
"Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote."
If this were your only problem, you would not have voted as town. Now since you wanted to reinforce "weird" vibes that people were getting from cayvie (i was getting those too) with a vote, this just seems to be a subtle push to get other "weird" thinkers to sheep you and have this instant-wagon on cayvie. That feels really scummy.
Also, cayvie is right. Her post does not tell all things, she made that intentional. But it isn't confusing, it is crystal clear what she means to say with that.
I voted for her, because as I said before,
Truthfully, it looked to me like an accidental post, like she was trying to communicate something else, had edited it partially and then posted it on accident. That is why it looked scummy and why I voted it. It was a weird, weird post... especially the part about (not specifying further). I had no idea as it having anything to do with roleclaiming or softclaiming or having anything to do with claiming.
Summary:
I don't rolefish. I have never rolefished. That isn't how I play mafia--I know you are interested in this meta discussion of myself, but I do think it is worth mentioning.
I felt my vote was justified to bring about a response, not a rolefish, to clarify her statement. I found it confusing and didn't understand what she was trying to say.
This whole investigation is blowing a mistake into something else and I feel even worse because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention. If it does end up that I get lynched, I apologize for putting town in this position, but I do not apologize for rolefishing, because I didn't! Town is simply misinterpreting my post in the same way that I misinterpreted cayvies!
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yuma's explanation that he wanted cayvie to explain her post, not her role, seems plausible. However, he never explains his vote until after he's prodded for it, which is scummy.
I had this whole post about how scummy voltaire's reaction to cayvie's post was, and then he says he was saying Eevee instead of cayvie. gaddammit.
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Vote Count 1.7
shraeye (5) -- Axxle, ashersky, Morgrim7, watno
ehunt (2) -- Jotheonah, O
O (1) -- ftl
Glooble (2) -- Grujah, TheMunch
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (1) -- Glooble
cayvie (1) -- yuma
yuma (6) -- cayvie, Cuzz, Voltgloss, Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Not Voting (6) -- Young Nick, igbtennis, eHalcyon, Galzria, Dsell, ehunt
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
i see yuma's wagon has 2 volts, but shraeye's has a wat.
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i see yuma's wagon has 2 volts, but shraeye's has a wat.
+1
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yuma's explanation that he wanted cayvie to explain her post, not her role, seems plausible. However, he never explains his vote until after he's prodded for it, which is scummy.
I had this whole post about how scummy voltaire's reaction to cayvie's post was, and then he says he was saying Eevee instead of cayvie. gaddammit.
do you mean prodded after I had been voted 5+ times or prodded immediately after I voted by Eevee?
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I had this whole post about how scummy voltaire's reaction to cayvie's post was, and then he says he was saying Eevee instead of cayvie. gaddammit.
Sorry to take all the fun out of it.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
No, I just meant that it was weird.
It suggests that cayvie has a role that punishes her for lynching a townie. I can see that being a scum modifier, but I can see it being townie as well. So it's neutral. And weird, because I don't think we've ever seen that kind of setup.
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Ok so now my being new gets to show its true colors. I was very confused about all the goings on and the huge wagon that formed on yuma. I too was confused by Cayvie's post, mostly because I feel like I dont know the roles well enough and really had no idea what should could be hinting at. But I wasn't so confused that I would ever vote for Cayvie. Yuma does vote for Cayvie and he got a lot of heat for it. I read through everything very carefully; me being confused about Cayvie's post doesn't help me not side with Yuma's desire for clarification. But, ok, let me believe for a second that Yuma knows better. It wasn't until this that I was really convinced:
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip. I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line. I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched. You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss. I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing. It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy. You get my Vote: Yuma.
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Ok so now my being new gets to show its true colors. I was very confused about all the goings on and the huge wagon that formed on yuma. I too was confused by Cayvie's post, mostly because I feel like I dont know the roles well enough and really had no idea what should could be hinting at. But I wasn't so confused that I would ever vote for Cayvie. Yuma does vote for Cayvie and he got a lot of heat for it. I read through everything very carefully; me being confused about Cayvie's post doesn't help me not side with Yuma's desire for clarification. But, ok, let me believe for a second that Yuma knows better. It wasn't until this that I was really convinced:
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip. I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line. I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched. You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss. I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing. It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy. You get my Vote: Yuma.
You missed the sentence before the one you quoted. here is the full quote
This whole investigation is blowing a mistake into something else and I feel even worse because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention. If it does end up that I get lynched, I apologize for putting town in this position,
I may or may not be too important to lynch day 1, but my mistake is truly bad because it potentially allows for an easy lynch target that allow scum to slip into day 2 w/o any effort.
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sorry... that was incorrect... my bad i'll repost and try to get it right...
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the post that TheMunch quotes was before the post that I quote, so I suppose he makes a valid point, but my point that I was trying to get in both apologies was what I said in the post before this:
I may or may not be too important to lynch day 1, but my mistake is truly bad because it potentially allows for an easy lynch target that allow scum to slip into day 2 w/o any effort.
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Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
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Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
Blergh. Are you sure?
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Ok so now my being new gets to show its true colors. I was very confused about all the goings on and the huge wagon that formed on yuma. I too was confused by Cayvie's post, mostly because I feel like I dont know the roles well enough and really had no idea what should could be hinting at. But I wasn't so confused that I would ever vote for Cayvie. Yuma does vote for Cayvie and he got a lot of heat for it. I read through everything very carefully; me being confused about Cayvie's post doesn't help me not side with Yuma's desire for clarification. But, ok, let me believe for a second that Yuma knows better. It wasn't until this that I was really convinced:
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip. I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line. I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched. You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss. I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing. It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy. You get my Vote: Yuma.
You missed the sentence before the one you quoted. here is the full quote
This whole investigation is blowing a mistake into something else and I feel even worse because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention. If it does end up that I get lynched, I apologize for putting town in this position,
I may or may not be too important to lynch day 1, but my mistake is truly bad because it potentially allows for an easy lynch target that allow scum to slip into day 2 w/o any effort.
That logic only really works if you are town. Ofc it is a mistake for town to lynch town but you have convinced no one that you are not super scummy from you post. It doesn't hurt town to vote scum day 1. You have responded to my disappointment in you saying "i'm too valuable to kill" by quote yourself stating why you are "too valuable to kill." Thats not a defense and is arguable more scummy. My vote stays.
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OK, lots to say:
First, Unvote. Shraeye was a bad wagon. Sorry about that, didn't realize that was sarcasm. Meh. Me and my thick head :)
Secondly, Vote: O. He shows up, posts like twice, one of his posts being totally insignificant, and the other being just a vote. Thats...ugh. Why? O, you're better than that.
eHunt, I'm with you for the two-post-a-day thing, I really couldn't do more.
And lastly to yuma. L-5. Ugh this game is huge....
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Oh. Well. We certainly can't lynch you now then can we. Oh, please.
@yuma
Cayvie says "just a heads up, my role doesn't want to be on townie lynch wagons, so I'll refrain for voting unless I'm really sure". You reply by voting for her and asking for an explanation. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that people want to vote you for this. If you are town, you made a pretty serious mistake (which sadly often are the basis of f.Ds day 1 lynch wagons), and should at the very least be apologizing, not acting all surprised by our reaction.
I couldn't agree more. I'm fine with Cayvie's role not liking mislynch wagons. What could she possibly say to you? She can't quote her role. I think I'm actually gonna Vote: yuma. I'm OK with an O lynch too.
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Yuma, are scum voting for you right now?
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What I'm not getting from yuma's explanation is an unvote--if he's sorry and gets the misunderstanding, why keep his vote there?
Speaking of which, Unvote..
I'm still wondering about O. Where's the O suspicion? Dude's incognito.
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Cayvie's supposed modifier seems neutral. Could be scum, could be town.
Clarifying cayvie's post for TheMunch, as I understood it, since nobody else has: cayvie "softclaimed" (hinted at, without stating outright) that she has some role that would cause it to be really bad for her if she lynched a townie, and so she'd refrain from being on lynch wagons until she was completely sure she was lynching scum. She hasn't divulged any more details besides "I have an extra reason not to be responsible for town lynches" and we should not press her for more details, since role info is more valuable to scum than town at the moment.
Yuma's certainly drawing more attention now than he ever has in mafia games I've been in with him. As scum, has he ever faced significant pressure, how did he react to that? Because I also remember him as scum never being suspected and never having to defend himself against a "slip" in the first place.
He's right in that we DON'T want scum to be able to slip into D2 with no effort. O!!! Get in here. Talk. Do you think yuma is scummy? Do you think cayvie is scummy? And igbtennis is just not here yet. But O was. And he chose to leave without anything more than a single vote and a half-sentence "meta" justification. AND IT'S FRIGGIN WORKING. THERE'S NO O WAGON. NOT OKAY. (and ibgtennis too, but he just hasn't been here at all.)
Good lord, I'm using the same argument as Morgrim. Someone dayvig me now...
(preemptively - that was not serious Morgrim, if you're a dayvig don't kill me!)
Hmm, looking over shraeye and yuma wagons, there was nobody in common besides cayvie? And cayvie is listed first and so started At least looking at the last few votecounts. I don't know whether scum would be more likely to jump on the first or second wagon. Neither is more scummy, there was probably like one scum on each or something.
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Yuma, are scum voting for you right now?
I really don't know... I mean, probably one... but I can total see scum sitting back and being like "alright! yuma just screwed himself over, and now town is going to lynch him"
that is how I would have reacted--and did in nearly all the games where I was scum. (Galz in M3, ftl in M5). But there was always one on my team that joined the wagon. But I couldn't tell you who it might be. If you look at my stats, there hasn't been a single day 1 wagon that hasn't had scum on it. I am about to eat dinner, been making it while I post this, but I'll take a look at everyone on my wagon later...
PPE: ashersky you are right, I never did unvote, although I never did get exaclty what I was looking for... a clarification by cayvie as to what her post meant, but I guess that really isn't the point anymore now is it?
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He's right in that we DON'T want scum to be able to slip into D2 with no effort. O!!! Get in here. Talk. Do you think yuma is scummy? Do you think cayvie is scummy? And igbtennis is just not here yet. But O was. And he chose to leave without anything more than a single vote and a half-sentence "meta" justification. AND IT'S FRIGGIN WORKING. THERE'S NO O WAGON. NOT OKAY. (and ibgtennis too, but he just hasn't been here at all.)
I have it, but I have yuma more, right now. Like Morgrim, though, I'm fine with either a yuma or O lynch (at this point - my only reason for suspecting O is the lurking). Same with tennis. But that's why I'm voting yuma - it's a reason more than lurking.
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Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.
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(edit: I think it is worth noting that this analysis isn't intended to be a defense or even necessarily a OMGUS--is that the right acronym for this?--but instead is a response to Galz's question of whether or not I think scum is on my wagon. It isn't intended to influence how people vote, my defense is already written--although I am willing to answer more questions about it--this is simply my thoughts if I do end up getting lynched about the early wagon that formed on me.)
right now the wagon on my consists of the following:
cayvie, Cuzz, Voltgloss, Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye, TheMunch, Morgrim
The difficult part about this is that if people really think that I was rolefishing then their votes on me are perfectly justifiable. So the question then becomes who out of these people actually think I was rolefishing.
cayvie, cuzz and voltgloss all voted for me before I ever had a chance to explain that I wasn't rolefishing and that I had misunderstood her post and was in need of clarification. Out of these three, volt knows me best and knows that isn't my playstyle.
eevee and voltaire voted before I was further able to clarify and explain my full rationale for my behavior. shraeye's post was after but only 4 seconds after, meaning my explanation wasn't read before he posted it...
The Munch voted for me not because of my behavior but because of some comments within my defense.
Morgrim seems to completely ignore my misunderstanding cayvie's post and my explanations. This is still Morgrim style behavior and so it doesn't surprise me, but still irks me.
So out of all the people currently voting for me: voltgloss, the munch and eevee are more suspicious. But honestly, everyone of them could easily be town because again, if they all think I was truly rolefishing, then their votes are justifiable.
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Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.
Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.
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Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.
Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.
But even 1 scum on his wagon on D1 means that he's (very likely) not scum.
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Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.
Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.
But even 1 scum on his wagon on D1 means that he's (very likely) not scum.
I agree with you, yes. But that holds true of everyone but scum, and unless we wagon everyone, we won't be able to differentiate.
What I'm realizing is that lynching scum on D1 is a wonderful utopia - rarely, if ever, to be achieved. The realistic best-case town scenario is gaining information, and yuma (and shraeye)'s wagons have done a good job of that.
Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.
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Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.
Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.
But even 1 scum on his wagon on D1 means that he's (very likely) not scum.
I agree with you, yes. But that holds true of everyone but scum, and unless we wagon everyone, we won't be able to differentiate.
What I'm realizing is that lynching scum on D1 is a wonderful utopia - rarely, if ever, to be achieved. The realistic best-case town scenario is gaining information, and yuma (and shraeye)'s wagons have done a good job of that.
Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.
I'm not arguing that what yuma did wasn't a bit out of line or at least could be perceived as rolefishing...I didn't catch that right away when I countered his post (I was one of the first to do so, but not with a vote) but looking back I could see opportunist scum there. But I'm not convinced, and when I'm not convinced I don't mind sitting back and looking at the state of the wagon. Rethinking, in a setup this size it actually would be really possible for scum to already be on the wagon, even if yuma is scum. However, I strongly doubt they would be driving the wagon on fellow scum. And at this point, some of the wagon drivers like Voltgloss look very nearly as bad as yuma himself.
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We also should keep in mind the size of this game. With 25 players I'd be shocked if there weren't multiple scumteams.
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I'm not arguing that what yuma did wasn't a bit out of line or at least could be perceived as rolefishing...I didn't catch that right away when I countered his post (I was one of the first to do so, but not with a vote) but looking back I could see opportunist scum there. But I'm not convinced, and when I'm not convinced I don't mind sitting back and looking at the state of the wagon. Rethinking, in a setup this size it actually would be really possible for scum to already be on the wagon, even if yuma is scum. However, I strongly doubt they would be driving the wagon on fellow scum. And at this point, some of the wagon drivers like Voltgloss look very nearly as bad as yuma himself.
Yup. With 25 participants, one scum team would likely mean 5-6 scum (22%, based on the standard 2/9 setup).
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We also should keep in mind the size of this game. With 25 players I'd be shocked if there weren't multiple scumteams.
This too.
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Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.
Ok.... these two words are being used a lot: blatant and obvious.
Why was it so blatant and so obvious? I didn't see it that way when I posted it and while I can see how people could interpret my post as such I would in no way characterize it as either blatant or obvious.
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Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.
Ok.... these two words are being used a lot: blatant and obvious.
Why was it so blatant and so obvious? I didn't see it that way when I posted it and while I can see how people could interpret my post as such I would in no way characterize it as either blatant or obvious.
I just think that for a lot of people, cayvie's post obviously referred to some power. You then immediately asked for more information about that post. So it was obvious rolefishing unless you truly did not consider that her post involved her role. And it seems like many of us find that hard to believe.
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@yuma
for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
It's the bold part. I have no issues with your vote against her in the first place. What I wanted to avoid was cayvie doing exactly what you asked her to - explaining in detail what her comment made. Clearly she was revealing she had some sort of a role - it's bad for town to claim this early - and I didn't really like the move. From my point of view, it was her claiming something a bit too "hard" to be a "soft"claim. That's what I meant when I said "shhhhhhhhhhh Eevee" and meant "shhhhhhhhhhhh cayvie" - I meant "don't explain what it means in more depth."
And that's exactly what you asked her to do.
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Unvote actually. This is probably just the kind of "scum slip" that's actually just a mistake (it really looked like rolefishing yuma, even if it wasn't intentional). But, as I said in my ~first post of this game, we mislynch people over mistakes like this all the time. I think yuma responded to the pressure okay in the end.
I still consider what yuma did scummy, but I'm leaning towards it just being a mistake rather than a.. visible sign of scumminess from a scum player?
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@yuma
for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
It's the bold part. I have no issues with your vote against her in the first place. What I wanted to avoid was cayvie doing exactly what you asked her to - explaining in detail what her comment made. Clearly she was revealing she had some sort of a role - it's bad for town to claim this early - and I didn't really like the move. From my point of view, it was her claiming something a bit too "hard" to be a "soft"claim. That's what I meant when I said "shhhhhhhhhhh Eevee" and meant "shhhhhhhhhhhh cayvie" - I meant "don't explain what it means in more depth."
And that's exactly what you asked her to do.
I didn't ask her to reveal anything--and again, I didn't read her post as saying that she wouldn't reveal anything! look at my post that you quoted where I say "I have no idea what she is trying to communicate" and then ask her to "explain it more in detail." I think here, the "it" is the problem; I am thinking that people viewed the word of "it" as "your role that you mention" whereas for me "it" meant "your entire post, which I didn't understand, and which I think might have been a post that was accidentally posted and possibly something else"
My vote for cayvie wasn't ever because she as revealing a little bit about her role. It was that I found her post to potentially be a partial post that was partially edited and accidentally posted.
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Unvote
I was hoping more scum would pile on before people started seriously questioning this wagon, but getting at least one scum to join (and I agree with yuma that probably at least one did) is worth something to talk about today.
yuma, your post did read like rolefishing. You voted cayvie instantaneously after her softclaim, and then (to my eye) threatened you wouldn't remove your vote unless she claimed fully. I know that's not what you said, but that's how it came across.
That said, your explanations since have been reasonable, and I find it intriguing how multiple additional votes piled onto you despite your having done so. Those who did can stand some heat.
And also:
And at this point, some of the wagon drivers like Voltgloss look very nearly as bad as yuma himself.
Dsell, I'd like you to explain your thinking here. Why me specifically? What made me a "wagon driver?" Who are the other "wagon drivers" you think look very nearly as bad as yuma himself? And why?
Anyway, my vote on yuma has served its purpose. Time to put my vote to a new purpose: helping convince a certain someone stop lurking.
Vote: O
(I'm also going now to see if ibgtennis has logged in since the game started)
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Voltgloss, you are an experienced player, one that has a reputation of being a very strong player (even though you always lose, OH SNAP) and on top of that you have the tendency of leading the town a lot. Surely you see why you voting for someone matters more than "some random noob" doing it. Not that much more, but I think that's what Dsell meant. When Voltgloss speaks, town listens!
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Vote: O seems reasonable though, stop being lazy buddy.
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Volt's post about his vote basically testing the town reminds me a lot of MIII, where he was scum.
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Volt's post about his vote basically testing the town reminds me a lot of MIII, where he was scum.
how so?
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Volt's post about his vote basically testing the town reminds me a lot of MIII, where he was scum.
how so?
Because I pulled a similar gambit in M-III re: Galz/jotheonah. And I was scum.
However, I also pulled a similar gambit in M-VIII re: Robz. Where I was town. And completely correct.
This is how I play, whether scum or town. It shouldn't be accepted as evidence of my alignment one way OR the other.
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Volt's post about his vote basically testing the town reminds me a lot of MIII, where he was scum.
how so?
I don't fully remember the events; I think it was d1 or d2. In MIII, he voted for someone and gave quite a few reasons for it. Then, after the wagon was formed, he revealed that it had all been a test, that the wagon he had started looked scummy, and then he proceeded to build a case against someone on the wagon.
This feels kind of like that.
Not voting because, hey, it could be legitimate scumhunting. But it reminds me of Volt doing it in MIII, and he was scum there. Just thought it was worth mentioning.
PPE: Volt confirms that thought.
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I wanted to get a Vote: O in before bed. I ended up staying awake longer than expected, though, so here I am now. I think it'll take a certain number of votes (probably L-X, decided by O pre-game), before he joins the game in earnest.
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No it's just that this thread's been uninteresting so far, except for Ehunt's attempt to make it even more devoid of content.
I think Ftl is the only scummy one on my wagon: I've never used "lolz I'm O" before, people have made that argument for me. And the "I've seen scum O play and this is how he plays" is a very very big scumtell to me IMO when I'm town: It's how I locked in on Glooble after replacing into RMM2.
Also note that my absence has caused more discussion than my presence did.
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Everyone repeating "where the hell is O!?" is not really discussion. Town O does stuff like this all the time, but I wouldn't put it past scum O either. Unvote I guess though, can't really say O is my main suspect.
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Unvote
There's one more lurker, who was logged in two hours ago and yet had nothing to say.
Vote: ibgtennis. Come and join the discussion.
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I've never used "lolz I'm O" before,
You did when you put me at L-2 in Medical Mafia. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2893.msg53725#msg53725
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Vote Count 1.8
shraeye (3) -- Axxle, watno
ehunt (2) -- Jotheonah, O
O (2) -- ftl, ashersky
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (1) -- Glooble
yuma (6) -- cayvie, Cuzz, Voltaire, shraeye, TheMunch, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
igbtennis (1) -- Voltgloss
Not Voting (8 ) -- Young Nick, igbtennis, eHalcyon, Galzria, Dsell, ehunt, yuma, Eevee
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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He's right in that we DON'T want scum to be able to slip into D2 with no effort. O!!! Get in here. Talk. Do you think yuma is scummy? Do you think cayvie is scummy? And igbtennis is just not here yet. But O was. And he chose to leave without anything more than a single vote and a half-sentence "meta" justification. AND IT'S FRIGGIN WORKING. THERE'S NO O WAGON. NOT OKAY. (and ibgtennis too, but he just hasn't been here at all.)
Yes. actually, 1000 times yes. I'm pretty fed up with us being like...watch out lurkers, or we're going to say "shame on you" real loud. Lurking has consequences. Starting now.
Vote: O
I don't care that you've shown up since then to explain why you aren't commenting. I care that you weren't commenting. This vote is not "let me put this here until he shows up." This vote is let's lynch O for he was lurking, by his own admission
No it's just that this thread's been uninteresting so far, except for Ehunt's attempt to make it even more devoid of content.
I think Ftl is the only scummy one on my wagon: I've never used "lolz I'm O" before, people have made that argument for me. And the "I've seen scum O play and this is how he plays" is a very very big scumtell to me IMO when I'm town: It's how I locked in on Glooble after replacing into RMM2.
Also note that my absence has caused more discussion than my presence did.
No, as eevee points out your absence hasn't caused more discussion than your presence did, it just cause people to say "where is o?"
your absence let you get by without voicing an opinion on "is shraeye sarcastic? if so, what does that mean?" debate. It let you get by without commenting on or voicing opinions about the cayvie/yuma issue. Voltaire has made a not crazy suggestion to use lynching to draw out information on relationships by lynchin yuma or me. I'm not crazy about getting lynched, especially because I think that my wagon was still partly in RVS stage and felt less like an alignment question than "was cayvie's softclaim pro-town or not, and what does yuma voting for her mean? Was yuma role-fishing?" If either of these lynches go through, then still nobody knows anything about how you stand in relation to other players. THAT IS WHY LURKING IS BAD FOR TOWN. And that is why I'm voting for you. I heartily encourage all players who at some point put a vote on O for lurking to put it back. Him showing up to say "yes I was lurking and nothing looked interesting" should not be a reason to forgive him for that lurking.
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the reason we never lynch lurkers for realz is because there are always better targets, y'know? It goes obvscum>scummy>lurker>bad town play>annoying play>random>no lynch>obvtown>IC
the relevant bit here being scummy>lurking
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the reason we never lynch lurkers for realz is because there are always better targets, y'know? It goes obvscum>scummy>lurker>bad town play>annoying play>random>no lynch>obvtown>IC
the relevant bit here being scummy>lurking
So scum should just lurk and let town kill themselves? I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's a flawed system. We should absolutely be lynching lurker>everything except confirmed scum. Otherwise there's always going to be a safer place for scum to hide: lurk.
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I disagree with that scale.
vote: O
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the reason we never lynch lurkers for realz is because there are always better targets, y'know? It goes obvscum>scummy>lurker>bad town play>annoying play>random>no lynch>obvtown>IC
the relevant bit here being scummy>lurking
So scum should just lurk and let town kill themselves? I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's a flawed system. We should absolutely be lynching lurker>everything except confirmed scum. Otherwise there's always going to be a safer place for scum to hide: lurk.
The man talks sense, yet he gives no votes...
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the reason we never lynch lurkers for realz is because there are always better targets, y'know? It goes obvscum>scummy>lurker>bad town play>annoying play>random>no lynch>obvtown>IC
the relevant bit here being scummy>lurking
So scum should just lurk and let town kill themselves? I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's a flawed system. We should absolutely be lynching lurker>everything except confirmed scum. Otherwise there's always going to be a safer place for scum to hide: lurk.
Note: I recognize that we, as a community, have created this bad system that we play in. I've found Shraeye suspicious for other things he's said today, but he's right here. We need to change our priorities and perspective. However, my vote will first go to Vote: igbtennis for having said nothing at all. After he comes in and begins to contribute I will vote O unless he too has become active. Because there HAS been stuff to commit on this game, and he's lurked his way out of involving himself.
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I think that a policy like LAL involves committing to winning a larger number of games in general at the expense of the game we're currently playing, something town is seldom willing to do in context.
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igbtennis clearly hasn't realized the has started yet though, so it's different kind of lurking.
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I think that a policy like LAL involves committing to winning a larger number of games in general at the expense of the game we're currently playing, something town is seldom willing to do in context.
The moment it's suggested, scum paint the person as obvscum for not playing to town's wincon in "this" game.
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the reason we never lynch lurkers for realz is because there are always better targets, y'know? It goes obvscum>scummy>lurker>bad town play>annoying play>random>no lynch>obvtown>IC
the relevant bit here being scummy>lurking
So scum should just lurk and let town kill themselves? I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's a flawed system. We should absolutely be lynching lurker>everything except confirmed scum. Otherwise there's always going to be a safer place for scum to hide: lurk.
Note: I recognize that we, as a community, have created this bad system that we play in. I've found Shraeye suspicious for other things he's said today, but he's right here. We need to change our priorities and perspective. However, my vote will first go to Vote: igbtennis for having said nothing at all. After he comes in and begins to contribute I will vote O unless he too has become active. Because there HAS been stuff to commit on this game, and he's lurked his way out of involving himself.
An acceptable alternative is ibgtennis he has not shown up at all (and is currently 'online'??)
It seems unfair to vote for youNgick due to his previously stated V/LA until the 20th. But when that date shows up he needs to be ready to jump in with all 3 feet.
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igbtennis clearly hasn't realized the has started yet though, so it's different kind of lurking.
I agree, in general. But we're 500+ posts in. It's not like we just started 12 hours ago. And he signed up saying he was rl friends with somebody here, didn't he? Thus I would expect that "somebody" would inform him. So if we actively started pursuing this Policy - and I think we should - he's set first, ever, ever so slightly above O who admits to lurking because he doesn't want to commit himself.
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igbtennis clearly hasn't realized the has started yet though, so it's different kind of lurking.
I agree, in general. But we're 500+ posts in. It's not like we just started 12 hours ago. And he signed up saying he was rl friends with somebody here, didn't he? Thus I would expect that "somebody" would inform him. So if we actively started pursuing this Policy - and I think we should - he's set first, ever, ever so slightly above O who admits to lurking because he doesn't want to commit himself.
It's a tough call. without context ibgtennis's lurking is worse. But the context I'm using is "O is experienced at f.DS mafia" I'm much less willing to forgive him.
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I'm onboard with either of those lynches.
For now, I'll switch to Vote: Ibgtennis , since O is at least in here and defending himself now.
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I'm onboard with either of those lynches.
For now, I'll switch to Vote: Ibgtennis , since O is at least in here and defending himself now.
O is here.
O is not defending himself.
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I have nothing to defend myself against...
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yeah, Galz. With all these real wagons around, all this lurker lynch talk does seem scummy.
I mean, I get it, I do. But going into Day 2 I'm going to be most suspicious of the people pushing for a nice, safe, lurker lynch. Aren't you?
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I have nothing to defend myself against...
Interesting perspective.
Vote: O
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yeah, Galz. With all these real wagons around, all this lurker lynch talk does seem scummy.
I mean, I get it, I do. But going into Day 2 I'm going to be most suspicious of the people pushing for a nice, safe, lurker lynch. Aren't you?
If said lynch flips town? Sure. But your argument that we have all these other wagons around must be taken with a spoonful of "f.ds sucks at wagoning scum D1". I'm not saying eHunt, or Shraeye, or Yuma aren't scum. In fact they very well could be. But they're posting in such a way that we can quantify our suspicion on them and lynch them for it at a future time if we deem it appropriate. The lurkers are not defining themselves to us at all however. As scum or town. Thus if town they carry no credibility, and if scum there won't ever be a case against them. It creates the bozzball situation if town, and Glooble issue if scum. In both situations, unless you disallow it, it'll always be an acceptable way to play.
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I'm going to try to be V/LA for ~24 hours, so that I can get some stuff done IRL. I may not be entirely successful in this endeavour, but I just wanted to let you guys know, just in case.
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I have nothing to defend myself against...
Shraeye called you out for not giving your opinion on a list of topics that have come and gone while you were too lonely on your pedestal to participate in conversations that "weren't interesting enough for you." You have plenty to answer for and if you dont see it, I'm on board the Vote: O train too.
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Hey everybody,
I'm finally here. I'm sorry I was away all weekend and catching up with work IRL until an hour ago ago. Then, because of my painfully obvious newbie status, I read through all possible roles/mods and then caught up on the thread.
Too tired to metagame right now, and RVS seems ridiculous anyway, so I'll just Vote: ftl because of all the people who have voted for me (and unvoted), he's singled me out twice. So there.
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And yes, for the record it is "ibgtennis" not igbtennis.
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Good to have you here, ibg! Or is it tennis? Which would you prefer?
Too tired to metagame right now, and RVS seems ridiculous anyway, so I'll just Vote: ftl because of all the people who have voted for me (and unvoted), he's singled me out twice. So there.
(This must be the mother of all OMGUS's. :)) Why do you think ftl going after you so hard makes him scummy?
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I disagree with that scale.
vote: O
I have nothing to defend myself against...
Interesting perspective.
Vote: O
He's right in that we DON'T want scum to be able to slip into D2 with no effort. O!!! Get in here. Talk. Do you think yuma is scummy? Do you think cayvie is scummy? And igbtennis is just not here yet. But O was. And he chose to leave without anything more than a single vote and a half-sentence "meta" justification. AND IT'S FRIGGIN WORKING. THERE'S NO O WAGON. NOT OKAY. (and ibgtennis too, but he just hasn't been here at all.)
Yes. actually, 1000 times yes. I'm pretty fed up with us being like...watch out lurkers, or we're going to say "shame on you" real loud. Lurking has consequences. Starting now.
Vote: O
I don't care that you've shown up since then to explain why you aren't commenting. I care that you weren't commenting. This vote is not "let me put this here until he shows up." This vote is let's lynch O for he was lurking, by his own admission
No it's just that this thread's been uninteresting so far, except for Ehunt's attempt to make it even more devoid of content.
I think Ftl is the only scummy one on my wagon: I've never used "lolz I'm O" before, people have made that argument for me. And the "I've seen scum O play and this is how he plays" is a very very big scumtell to me IMO when I'm town: It's how I locked in on Glooble after replacing into RMM2.
Also note that my absence has caused more discussion than my presence did.
No, as eevee points out your absence hasn't caused more discussion than your presence did, it just cause people to say "where is o?"
your absence let you get by without voicing an opinion on "is shraeye sarcastic? if so, what does that mean?" debate. It let you get by without commenting on or voicing opinions about the cayvie/yuma issue. Voltaire has made a not crazy suggestion to use lynching to draw out information on relationships by lynchin yuma or me. I'm not crazy about getting lynched, especially because I think that my wagon was still partly in RVS stage and felt less like an alignment question than "was cayvie's softclaim pro-town or not, and what does yuma voting for her mean? Was yuma role-fishing?" If either of these lynches go through, then still nobody knows anything about how you stand in relation to other players. THAT IS WHY LURKING IS BAD FOR TOWN. And that is why I'm voting for you. I heartily encourage all players who at some point put a vote on O for lurking to put it back. Him showing up to say "yes I was lurking and nothing looked interesting" should not be a reason to forgive him for that lurking.
Let the record show that Shraeye has voted for me three times in a row inexplicably, without ever taking his vote off me.
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He must really not like you then, uh? What else do you know?
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He must really not like you then, uh? What else do you know?
I know you all aren't going to end up lynching me, and this lurker-hunt has done nothing but spawn several contentless pages.
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He must really not like you then, uh? What else do you know?
I know you all aren't going to end up lynching me, and this lurker-hunt has done nothing but spawn several contentless pages.
::) vote: O if you're gonna be like that
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keep it coming. Only scum though, wouldn't want a townie to be mislynched because they got triggerhappy and chased after me.
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keep it coming. Only scum though, wouldn't want a townie to be mislynched because they got triggerhappy and chased after me.
oh good point
unvote
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keep it coming. Only scum though, wouldn't want a townie to be mislynched because they got triggerhappy and chased after me.
oh good point
unvote
Do you have a post restriction, cayvie?
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keep it coming. Only scum though, wouldn't want a townie to be mislynched because they got triggerhappy and chased after me.
oh good point
unvote
Do you have a post restriction, cayvie?
no, what's up?
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keep it coming. Only scum though, wouldn't want a townie to be mislynched because they got triggerhappy and chased after me.
oh good point
unvote
Do you have a post restriction, cayvie?
no, what's up?
if your comment was a joke, that unvote was weird. if it wasn't a joke, it's even weirder.
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eh, mostly just realized i didn't want to be voting O, and decided to say some other words along with it
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i see. it was weird because what O said was really not a good point at all..
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Unvote
ibgtennis has arrived, although to have one's first post be an OMGUS (Oh My God U Suck) retaliatory vote is kinda less than ideal. But at least it's a start.
What's the current votecount?
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Unvote
ibgtennis has arrived, although to have one's first post be an OMGUS (Oh My God U Suck) retaliatory vote is kinda less than ideal. But at least it's a start.
What's the current votecount?
I think we can let this slide a bit coming from someone so new. OMGUS is kind of a natural thing at first, even if you're town. Then you learn it's not so helpful. This coming from someone who's completed a whopping 2 games so far.
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Can we talk a little more about O convincing Cayvie to pull back the vote with a nothing argument? I dont understand why that is not a thing. Eevee said it; I would like more said. I dont know by who or about what. However, I dont know whether to side with Cayvie for following her own no-town-lynch rule and correcting the mistake or to side against Cayvie for breaking it so easily.
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Can we talk a little more about O convincing Cayvie to pull back the vote with a nothing argument? I dont understand why that is not a thing. Eevee said it; I would like more said. I dont know by who or about what. However, I dont know whether to side with Cayvie for following her own no-town-lynch rule and correcting the mistake or to side against Cayvie for breaking it so easily.
Cayvie said she would be potentially hopping off of wagons pre-lynch. She didn't "break" her rule; she's still allowed to vote all she wants presumably. I'm just interpreting her original comment as I read it. Not looking for any more details.
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Unvote
ibgtennis has arrived, although to have one's first post be an OMGUS (Oh My God U Suck) retaliatory vote is kinda less than ideal. But at least it's a start.
What's the current votecount?
I think we can let this slide a bit coming from someone so new. OMGUS is kind of a natural thing at first, even if you're town. Then you learn it's not so helpful. This coming from someone who's completed a whopping 2 games so far.
Can we talk a little more about O convincing Cayvie to pull back the vote with a nothing argument? I dont understand why that is not a thing. Eevee said it; I would like more said. I dont know by who or about what. However, I dont know whether to side with Cayvie for following her own no-town-lynch rule and correcting the mistake or to side against Cayvie for breaking it so easily.
Cayvie said she would be potentially hopping off of wagons pre-lynch. She didn't "break" her rule; she's still allowed to vote all she wants presumably. I'm just interpreting her original comment as I read it. Not looking for any more details.
Cuzz, the most forgiving and understanding guy ever. :)
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Ok, I'll stick my neck out and say it.
F.DS lurker meta is just fine in a town this size. The O lynch is bogus. ehunt and yuma are both better choices.
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I disagree with that scale.
vote: O
I have nothing to defend myself against...
Interesting perspective.
Vote: O
He's right in that we DON'T want scum to be able to slip into D2 with no effort. O!!! Get in here. Talk. Do you think yuma is scummy? Do you think cayvie is scummy? And igbtennis is just not here yet. But O was. And he chose to leave without anything more than a single vote and a half-sentence "meta" justification. AND IT'S FRIGGIN WORKING. THERE'S NO O WAGON. NOT OKAY. (and ibgtennis too, but he just hasn't been here at all.)
Yes. actually, 1000 times yes. I'm pretty fed up with us being like...watch out lurkers, or we're going to say "shame on you" real loud. Lurking has consequences. Starting now.
Vote: O
I don't care that you've shown up since then to explain why you aren't commenting. I care that you weren't commenting. This vote is not "let me put this here until he shows up." This vote is let's lynch O for he was lurking, by his own admission
No it's just that this thread's been uninteresting so far, except for Ehunt's attempt to make it even more devoid of content.
I think Ftl is the only scummy one on my wagon: I've never used "lolz I'm O" before, people have made that argument for me. And the "I've seen scum O play and this is how he plays" is a very very big scumtell to me IMO when I'm town: It's how I locked in on Glooble after replacing into RMM2.
Also note that my absence has caused more discussion than my presence did.
No, as eevee points out your absence hasn't caused more discussion than your presence did, it just cause people to say "where is o?"
your absence let you get by without voicing an opinion on "is shraeye sarcastic? if so, what does that mean?" debate. It let you get by without commenting on or voicing opinions about the cayvie/yuma issue. Voltaire has made a not crazy suggestion to use lynching to draw out information on relationships by lynchin yuma or me. I'm not crazy about getting lynched, especially because I think that my wagon was still partly in RVS stage and felt less like an alignment question than "was cayvie's softclaim pro-town or not, and what does yuma voting for her mean? Was yuma role-fishing?" If either of these lynches go through, then still nobody knows anything about how you stand in relation to other players. THAT IS WHY LURKING IS BAD FOR TOWN. And that is why I'm voting for you. I heartily encourage all players who at some point put a vote on O for lurking to put it back. Him showing up to say "yes I was lurking and nothing looked interesting" should not be a reason to forgive him for that lurking.
Let the record show that Shraeye has voted for me three times in a row inexplicably, without ever taking his vote off me.
This reads scummy to me. In this game, however, it could also be a power/restriction.
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Vote Count 1.9
shraeye (3) -- Axxle, watno
ehunt (2) -- Jotheonah, O
O (3) -- ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (1) -- Glooble
yuma (4) -- cayvie, Cuzz, Voltaire, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
igbtennis (2) -- Galzria, ftl
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Not Voting (7) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Dsell, ehunt, yuma, Eevee, Voltgloss
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Ok, I'll stick my neck out and say it.
F.DS lurker meta is just fine in a town this size. The O lynch is bogus. ehunt and yuma are both better choices.
Great, then I'll see you next game day. No need to post any more. Lurking is perfectly acceptable, so why should I bother to invest any effort? I'm sure I can find better things to do.
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Vote: Galzria
Lurker scum.
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My vote stays on Grujah until he more effectively explains why his vote is on me (It's like a little mini-game(:)
O is playing like O. It's frustrating, but it's not scummy. O-hunting is kind of like Morgrim-hunting, in that it's a good hiding place for scum. In general attacking players with weird, abrasive styles is something I would often do as scum.
I guess Shraeye qualifies as that kind of player now too. His aggressive anti-lurker stance actually looks pro-town to me, even if I think its a bit extreme.
So I'll be watching ashersky, TheMunch, Axxle, and Watno. But not really Axxle, because this whole double-voting thing actually makes him look town to me.
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Though I am very glad RVS appears to be ending, but my head is hurting trying to track these issues. I still want O to post. Also anyone else who hasn't posted yet. Though I know O is doing it intentionally.
Heck, vote: O since it's still RVS for me (I said it, it's true!) until I can go back and read more carefully.
You knew O wasn't posting intentionally? How so?
Also, why do you give a reason for your vote, and then say you did it because it was still RVS for you?
For example, Hey Gooble (in 324) and Watno (in 373), you both mention that you are suspicious of Shraeye. You are both most notable for being suspicious for reasons NOT involving the ridiculous "scumslip". Care to elaborate?
I think I did explain my reasons in that post. shraeye talks about wording a lot, without actually saying much of concern to the game.
Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
Can you explain why you need ehunt to say something before you can tell us the reasons you vote him for? You did already vote him, so the reasons should be there already.
TheMunch! No editing posts!
Policy Vote: TheMunch to make sure he doesn't miss this.
WTF? That's not a reason for a vote, especially since you don't unvote even after TheMunch responded, so obviously noticed it.
Regarding the yuma wagon: This looks kinda scummy to me. I mean, it's hard not to see that cayvie is hinting at her role, but yuma not understanding her seems much more likely still than such an obvious rolefishing attempt. I also kinda agree with Insomniac that some of the later voters seemed to like their chance to jump on a wagon quite a bit.
OK, lots to say:
First, Unvote. Shraeye was a bad wagon. Sorry about that, didn't realize that was sarcasm. Meh. Me and my thick head :)
It's not like that wasn't pointed out some posts before yours. Sure you're not just looking for a reason to get of the dwindling wagon?
I was hoping more scum would pile on before people started seriously questioning this wagon, but getting at least one scum to join (and I agree with yuma that probably at least one did) is worth something to talk about today.
How do you know there's scum on the wagon? From the structure of your sentence I get the feeling that your reason (believing) came after the rest of your thoughts.
Regarding Lurkers: O and ibgtennis, could you give your opinion on stuff? @ibgtennis: RVS is over.
vote: O, since he's actually not giving us his opinion on purpose.
@joth: I think that's sarcasm again ;)
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Unvote
ibgtennis has arrived, although to have one's first post be an OMGUS (Oh My God U Suck) retaliatory vote is kinda less than ideal. But at least it's a start.
What's the current votecount?
I think we can let this slide a bit coming from someone so new. OMGUS is kind of a natural thing at first, even if you're town. Then you learn it's not so helpful. This coming from someone who's completed a whopping 2 games so far.
Yeah, I mean, it was really late when I was reading this last night so it was tough to think it all out the way everyone else has done in painstaking detail. But more generally, there seems to be so much bullshit bullshitting involved in Day 1 (as opposed to legit bullshitting later on); it feels like people can claim "scumslip" or see a pattern in anything when it's likely just random. But isn't that RVS? Anyway, I suppose we do have to converge on someone to move past Day 1, so later today I'll try and do a harder read. For now my vote remains unchanged.
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My vote stays on Grujah until he more effectively explains why his vote is on me (It's like a little mini-game(:)
O is playing like O. It's frustrating, but it's not scummy. O-hunting is kind of like Morgrim-hunting, in that it's a good hiding place for scum. In general attacking players with weird, abrasive styles is something I would often do as scum.
I guess Shraeye qualifies as that kind of player now too. His aggressive anti-lurker stance actually looks pro-town to me, even if I think its a bit extreme.
So I'll be watching ashersky, TheMunch, Axxle, and Watno. But not really Axxle, because this whole double-voting thing actually makes him look town to me.
Oh hey! I recognize you, you're one of the players who voted for me because of my abrasive post towards ashersky.
Hi all, just wanted to drop in and say I'm not acti-lurking, just doing regular weekend life stuff, and trying to keep up.
I will mention Eevee is the same ole Eevee, Morgrim a very new Morgrim (liking it!), and the rest of you are still unmolded clay. I noticed talk of cards started and stopped very quickly; I think it's for the best to leave that to subsequent days.
Good, I was really worried you were "acti-lurking." Oh wait, no I wasn't, because that isn't a word. In more serious news, "talk of cards" never actually started; ehunt said "it's not a good thing to broadcast, don't do it." End of discussion. I suppose if I take "stopped very quickly" to mean instantly, you are right. Otherwise, you do not know what it means to start talking about things.
vote: shraeye
No quantifiable reason just yet, but his post gave me a scum vibe.
I think I will try a vote early, vote often strategy this game.
FOS: ehunt for all the reasons jo said, but especially the "one post a day" comment. That's a strategy that's way better for scum than for town, if everyone followed it.
wait, isn't that something you said you'd do as scum? Hmm...that quote must be around here somewhere. Oh, here it is.
My vote stays on Grujah until he more effectively explains why his vote is on me (It's like a little mini-game(:)
O is playing like O. It's frustrating, but it's not scummy. O-hunting is kind of like Morgrim-hunting, in that it's a good hiding place for scum. In general attacking players with weird, abrasive styles is something I would often do as scum.
I guess Shraeye qualifies as that kind of player now too. His aggressive anti-lurker stance actually looks pro-town to me, even if I think its a bit extreme.
So I'll be watching ashersky, TheMunch, Axxle, and Watno. But not really Axxle, because this whole double-voting thing actually makes him look town to me.
Ah sorry, now that I reread it I realize that you aren't making what you said is a scum move. *I forgot that abrasive only means abrasive when it's going after O. And that you clearly weren't attacking me because you didn't use words to explain your position on me, you just voted for me after 2 others did.*
But...there's something that doesn't make sense about those statements I just made between the asterisks...hmmmm. Could it be that they're ridiculously false? Nah... Gosh, I just can't put my finger on it, how frustrating.
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Though I am very glad RVS appears to be ending, but my head is hurting trying to track these issues. I still want O to post. Also anyone else who hasn't posted yet. Though I know O is doing it intentionally.
Heck, vote: O since it's still RVS for me (I said it, it's true!) until I can go back and read more carefully.
You knew O wasn't posting intentionally? How so?
Also, why do you give a reason for your vote, and then say you did it because it was still RVS for you?
I knew he wasn't posting intentionally because it's his style. Others have commented on this too in this thread. I think it was MX where he said he wanted to lurk D1 until he could make his first post a hammer. It's his established meta.
Every RVS vote has a reason, even if it's silly, and mine was somewhat silly (it was still very early in the game, lurking wasn't a crime yet) and somewhat serious (I knew O was likely to lurk on purpose, and has previously said (got I forget where) he wanted to come in at L-1. Or maybe that was the same as the hammer comment.
Point being - O is O.
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I was hoping more scum would pile on before people started seriously questioning this wagon, but getting at least one scum to join (and I agree with yuma that probably at least one did) is worth something to talk about today.
How do you know there's scum on the wagon? From the structure of your sentence I get the feeling that your reason (believing) came after the rest of your thoughts.
I don't "know" there was scum on yuma's wagon, nor did I say that. As I said in my post, I "agree with yuma that probably at least one did" (emphasis added). Why? Because it was a wagon that scum could feel safe supporting. If it led to a lynch and if yuma flipped town, scum on the wagon could defuse suspicion with the ready-made explanation "I voted because he was rolefishing."
Watno, I don't understand your second sentence directed to me. Can you clarify?
But more generally, there seems to be so much bullshit bullshitting involved in Day 1 (as opposed to legit bullshitting later on); it feels like people can claim "scumslip" or see a pattern in anything when it's likely just random. But isn't that RVS?
ibgtennis, what's the distinction you are drawing between "bullshit bullshitting" and "legit bullshitting?" I think I know what you're trying to say, but would rather you clarify directly.
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Oh, and before I go into super lurker mode (because apparently that's ok. Just as Joth), I need to switch my vote from igb to O.
Vote: O
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I needed to get a better handle on this game: so I am compiling this and will likely publish it when i am done so others can view it.
ftl: 19 posts; RVS style votes; called out and voted for lurkers (igbtennis and O); actually asked O about yuma/cayvie question.
voltgloss: 25 posts; questions ehunt; suspects yuma, dsell and O; votes yuma; unvotes yuma citing wagon being scummy; votes O; votes igbtennis, both for non-posting
eevee: 32 posts; suggests taking notes (hey eevee! look at me taking notes!), votes shraeye in acti-lurk controversy; votes ehunt for post limiting; is first to call me out on my mistake; votes yuma; finds yuma mistake as a "scum slip, that's really just a mistake" votes O; questions cayvie
grujah: 16 posts: but only 4 of them during real game play; starts the meta discussion; votes: globble, hasn't posted since then
insomniac: 25 posts: not active much in RVS; early vote on igbtennis; calls out ehunt and galz; voted voltaire for jumping onto the yuma wagon after it took off
glooble: 9 posts; votes shraeye; votes Grujah "for showing up, voting on me and disappearing" has only one real post after this responding to Munch about why not voting for shraeye anymore
dsell: 25 posts: policy votes morgrim (RVS?); joins yuma in calling O out; argues with ehunt a bit; is around during yuma wagon, but doesn't join it; finds voltgloss most scummy on yuma wagon;
jotheonah: 54 posts: votes for themunch; then ehunt; very aware of secret votes; Wow! lots of one-liners; against "a nice safe, lurker lynch"; votes Galz
Young Nick - V/LA - poor guy, he is going to have so much to read
voltaire - 23 posts; not around much in RVS--oh was VLA--votes O: not involved in the ehunt or dsell discussion; votes: igbtennis; calls yuma out, mixes up eevee/cayvie, votes yuma; argues yuma lynch is good because it provides info
axxle - 18 posts; votes: jot; then dsell; votes shraeye during shraeye's sarcastic moment; finds yuma's explanation plausible and unlikely to be scum;
O - 8 posts; no posting early; votes ehunt (policy lynch for bad meta); game uninteresting; nothing to defend; finds shraeye suspicious for voting 3 times
cayvie - 41 posts; RVS posts; provides meta analysis; votes shraeye; her "soft-claim" votes yuma; votes O; unvotes after he responds with logic I still dont' understand
shraeye - 27 posts: calls out morgrim for overreacting to dsell wagon; votes: voltgloss; his sarcastic comments, etc; joins yuma wagon; moves to vote for O x3;
cuzz - 9 posts: VLA weekend; votes yuma as first real post; not much else
yuma - 33 posts; RVS stuff; defends ehunt and RVS; votes O early; unvotes O after he votes ehunt; cayvie misinterpretation and votes: a whole lot of posts explaining that mistake
ibgtennis - 3 posts: votes ftl;
theMunch - 19 posts; "asking to hear things from new players is a scumtell"; votes ashersky; then ehunt; doesn't like acti-lurking conversation; edits post; changes to theCheat; votes: glooble for changing from shraey to grujah; joins yuma wagon; joins O wagon;
Morgrim - 13 posts: FOS dsell wagon; votes shraeye for "scumslips" ignoring that they were sarcastic; votes yuma, ignoring my arguments and explanations
ehal - 29 posts: conversation with morgrim; see's shraeye sarcasm as a scumslip; finds cayvie's post weird; volt is similar to MIII as scum;
watno - 8 posts: doesn't see shraeye as scummy; but then does after a while, votes shraeye; heavy into acti-lurking talk; not present for yuma/cayvie situation
Galz - 40 posts (but why does it seem like he has posted so little?) RVS voting, ran a marathon; argues with jot; shraeye not scummy, ehunt more scummy; not serial killer; doesn't weigh in a lot into the yuma situation; argues with jot; votes ibgtennis;
Captain_Frisk 14 posts: weekend not around much; policy vote themunch; SO little content!
ehunt - 30 posts; really controversial; votes dsell; recommends one big post; bossy about theory; doesn't get wagon on shraeye or himself; votes dsell again; unvotes him again; not present from then until now
ashersky - 10 posts; votes for galz, starts acti-lurking conversation; and unvotes deeming RVS over; joins shraeye wagon; and unvotes; present for yuma, but doesnt' vote; votes O
So that took awhile:
synopsis of reads for me up to this point:
town read: ehunt, O (although I would like you to post more) eevee, captain_Frisk (although i would like you to post more) themunch; axxle, insomniac; shraeye, cayvie, dsell
null read: morgrim (ok, I read him scummy, but I always do) Galz, ehal; cuzz; ftl; voltaire, young nick
scummy read: ibgtennis (he posted, but one post to only vote w/o saying anything else about anything that has gone on in the game, not so good) ashersky; watno; Glooble, Grujah, voltgloss; jotheonah
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I'll post more later. I don't know quite what to talk about; maybe I'll do a big list with names. Does anyone have questions for me?
For now,
1. Jo's defense of lurking is so weird. He's done this twice; the first was defensible although I think it's wrong (he was saying that if you think someone's scum that's a better lynch than a lurker), but the second was just indefensible (he was saying lurking is A-OK because the town is big. No, that makes lurking worse, not better.) Jo, you're voting for me for encouraging others to follow my "one-a-day" strategy. And yet you are simultaneously defending the practice of lurking qua lurking, not just lurking as opposed to seeming actively scummy. How do you resolve this contradiction?
2. Similarly, DSell didn't get enough heat for his "I'm just going to sit back and form opinions without posting much" stance.
3. I think Yuma made a serious mistake. I don't think scum blatantly rolefishes on day one, and especially I don't think scum-Yuma does (scum-Yuma is helpful and cautious, like scum-eHalc in MVI). HOWEVER, this does not imply that Yuma is town. It just means Yuma is probably telling the truth about the misunderstanding.
4. Has Shraeye answered the arguments about his change in behavior? I can't find an answer, if there is one, can someone link it; if not, Shraeye, please answer these arguments.
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ehunt: how many times do I have to say this:
People have different playstyles, and that's OK.
Mine is to post a lot of short things. Yours is to post a few big things. O's is to stay quiet until he hs something to say. I'm against lynching someone for their playstyle, period. I'm against imposing your playstyle on other people. I'll vote for O when he does or says something scummy.
Here's something Robz said during signups, which presumably people thought would be respected during the actual game:
I am going to reverse-Voltgloss and swear off serious games because I try to do too much and it's just super time consuming. Would rather play games where I don't feel guilty for slacking off.
So how serious is this game going to be? If fairly serious, I would prefer being a backup mod or something.
It's going to be serious, and I want players to take it seriously. However, I absolutely insist that you play, and I absolutely insist that you not feel guilty for slacking off. I do not believe every person should be required to put the same amount of effort into every game. It's fine to let others take the lead now and then. So you should play, and know that I specifically excuse you from doing your long information posts about every player (unless I give you a role requiring it... ;))
So you should play.
Emphasis mine. It's a big town. We will catch the lurkers by and by. Their lurking will catch up with them. They're stupid Day 1 lynches. Too easy, too safe, not very informational.
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Hey, this is important. I'm pretty sure that a certain person has breadcrumbed having a certain item. I decided that I am not worried about your breadcrumb being discovered (the item doesn't correspond to a traditional mafia role), which is why I'm comfortable talking about it.
If you give that item to me (and this is true only of me), it will be removed from the game. If you think about it for a second, this will make perfect sense to you. Moreover, if you're town, and I think you are, although this is not mod-confirmed to me, then this will be bad in another way that I am not going to explain further. Do not give that item to me.
Please do not ask for details.
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ehunt: how many times do I have to say this:
People have different playstyles, and that's OK.
Mine is to post a lot of short things. Yours is to post a few big things. O's is to stay quiet until he hs something to say. I'm against lynching someone for their playstyle, period. I'm against imposing your playstyle on other people. I'll vote for O when he does or says something scummy.
Here's something Robz said during signups, which presumably people thought would be respected during the actual game:
I am going to reverse-Voltgloss and swear off serious games because I try to do too much and it's just super time consuming. Would rather play games where I don't feel guilty for slacking off.
So how serious is this game going to be? If fairly serious, I would prefer being a backup mod or something.
It's going to be serious, and I want players to take it seriously. However, I absolutely insist that you play, and I absolutely insist that you not feel guilty for slacking off. I do not believe every person should be required to put the same amount of effort into every game. It's fine to let others take the lead now and then. So you should play, and know that I specifically excuse you from doing your long information posts about every player (unless I give you a role requiring it... ;))
So you should play.
Emphasis mine. It's a big town. We will catch the lurkers by and by. Their lurking will catch up with them. They're stupid Day 1 lynches. Too easy, too safe, not very informational.
OK, I think you're saying the contradiction resolves itself because you're pro-lots-of-different-posting-styles and anti telling-other-people-how-to-post. That makes sense. I am anti-lurking and pro-telling-other-people-how-to-post, so we disagree.
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I think, as a player who has received four scum PMs and 0 town (ongoing games excluded, including this one, of course) I kind of have a unique perspective on this meta. This game I'm really trying to find scum with a "what would I be doing here?" approach.
Shraeye, I jumped on your wagon for reasons I already gave in response to TheMunch. It looked to me like you were trying to say something memorable so you didn't look like a lurker without actually giving a stance that could be used against you later when the town had more information. That's something I've done a lot as scum.
Voting for people like you and O, who are easy to antagonize because they play in an aggressive and hostile way, is also something I did a lot as scum.
Since those initial posts, you done a lot of things I don't think scum would do. So right now the people voting for you look scummier to me than you do.
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Unvote: yuma
Compiling a list like that is pro-town.
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And at this point, some of the wagon drivers like Voltgloss look very nearly as bad as yuma himself.
Dsell, I'd like you to explain your thinking here. Why me specifically? What made me a "wagon driver?" Who are the other "wagon drivers" you think look very nearly as bad as yuma himself? And why?
I just realized I never responded to this. Upon looking back, I overstated things. No one really "drove" the wagon. Really it just took off rather quickly on its own. You were very early in things with just a bit about rolefishing to add to your vote. It still looks a bit scummy to me but not as bad as I made it out to me.
Note that looking "very nearly as bad as yuma" isn't saying a whole lot because while that was a scummy thing to do/mistake to make, yuma has seemed pretty townie otherwise. You have given me a scummier vibe overall because your tone feels different from times when you've flipped town.
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My analysis:
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26949670.jpg)
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@Cuzz you shouldn't take "doing work that anybody could do but nobody wants to do" as a town-tell. in MVI i was convinced for the majority of day two that ehalc was town because ehalc spent an enormous amount of time early in that day compiling votes, fos's, and posts early in that day. fast forward to the end of the day and ehalc is mafia - not just mafia, but self-confirmed mafia. So I don't think Yuma's work is a town-tell. much like yuma's mistake earlier, it's neither a town-tell nor a scum-tell.
As far as the Yuma-wagon is concerned, I want to look back over it. I think it's going to be hard to characterize the first few reflexive votes as scum. Yuma made a serious mistake and a bunch of folks jumped on it quickly. I'd be more skeptical of someone acting like they're agonizing, then finally deciding to vote (or not to vote) for yuma. And now I'm going to go back and see if I can find such a person...
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@Cuzz you shouldn't take "doing work that anybody could do but nobody wants to do" as a town-tell. in MVI i was convinced for the majority of day two that ehalc was town because ehalc spent an enormous amount of time early in that day compiling votes, fos's, and posts early in that day. fast forward to the end of the day and ehalc is mafia - not just mafia, but self-confirmed mafia. So I don't think Yuma's work is a town-tell. much like yuma's mistake earlier, it's neither a town-tell nor a scum-tell.
As far as the Yuma-wagon is concerned, I want to look back over it. I think it's going to be hard to characterize the first few reflexive votes as scum. Yuma made a serious mistake and a bunch of folks jumped on it quickly. I'd be more skeptical of someone acting like they're agonizing, then finally deciding to vote (or not to vote) for yuma. And now I'm going to go back and see if I can find such a person...
So you'll join me on Voltaire ;)
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Unvote: yuma
Compiling a list like that is pro-town.
You should check out the lists I compiled in MVI.
But...there's something that doesn't make sense about those statements I just made between the asterisks...hmmmm. Could it be that they're ridiculously false? Nah... Gosh, I just can't put my finger on it, how frustrating.
If you're going to say something, just say it. Sarcastic snark doesn't help because it can always be misinterpreted, especially in a forum post. Please say what you mean.
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@Cuzz you shouldn't take "doing work that anybody could do but nobody wants to do" as a town-tell. in MVI i was convinced for the majority of day two that ehalc was town because ehalc spent an enormous amount of time early in that day compiling votes, fos's, and posts early in that day. fast forward to the end of the day and ehalc is mafia - not just mafia, but self-confirmed mafia. So I don't think Yuma's work is a town-tell. much like yuma's mistake earlier, it's neither a town-tell nor a scum-tell.
As far as the Yuma-wagon is concerned, I want to look back over it. I think it's going to be hard to characterize the first few reflexive votes as scum. Yuma made a serious mistake and a bunch of folks jumped on it quickly. I'd be more skeptical of someone acting like they're agonizing, then finally deciding to vote (or not to vote) for yuma. And now I'm going to go back and see if I can find such a person...
I was gonna say - just come out with it, man!
I'm keeping my vote on yuma still.
So you'll join me on Voltaire ;)
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@Cuzz you shouldn't take "doing work that anybody could do but nobody wants to do" as a town-tell. in MVI i was convinced for the majority of day two that ehalc was town because ehalc spent an enormous amount of time early in that day compiling votes, fos's, and posts early in that day. fast forward to the end of the day and ehalc is mafia - not just mafia, but self-confirmed mafia. So I don't think Yuma's work is a town-tell. much like yuma's mistake earlier, it's neither a town-tell nor a scum-tell.
As far as the Yuma-wagon is concerned, I want to look back over it. I think it's going to be hard to characterize the first few reflexive votes as scum. Yuma made a serious mistake and a bunch of folks jumped on it quickly. I'd be more skeptical of someone acting like they're agonizing, then finally deciding to vote (or not to vote) for yuma. And now I'm going to go back and see if I can find such a person...
I was gonna say - just come out with it, man!
I'm keeping my vote on yuma still.
So you'll join me on Voltaire ;)
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH QUOTE MESS
Below is correct:
@Cuzz you shouldn't take "doing work that anybody could do but nobody wants to do" as a town-tell. in MVI i was convinced for the majority of day two that ehalc was town because ehalc spent an enormous amount of time early in that day compiling votes, fos's, and posts early in that day. fast forward to the end of the day and ehalc is mafia - not just mafia, but self-confirmed mafia. So I don't think Yuma's work is a town-tell. much like yuma's mistake earlier, it's neither a town-tell nor a scum-tell.
As far as the Yuma-wagon is concerned, I want to look back over it. I think it's going to be hard to characterize the first few reflexive votes as scum. Yuma made a serious mistake and a bunch of folks jumped on it quickly. I'd be more skeptical of someone acting like they're agonizing, then finally deciding to vote (or not to vote) for yuma. And now I'm going to go back and see if I can find such a person...
So you'll join me on Voltaire ;)
I was gonna say - just come out with it, man!
I'm keeping my vote on yuma still.
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@Insomniac: I don't think Voltaire fits the description of the type of behavior I was describing at all. I don't mind the fast-votes, which didn't seem to piggyback off each other. I might have reflexively made one too if I had been online in real time. I am looking for agonizing and hedging. I don't think I found any. The most suspicious Yuma-voter I found is Voltgloss, not Voltaire. And now I have to read today's Voltgloss controversies better before I can say conclusive things there, because it sounds like he's saying he was mainly gambitting with his vote.
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I'm keeping my vote on yuma still.
Wait, why? Do you think Yuma was scum consciously trying to get cayvie to talk more about her role so that Yuma could then know to night-kill or not-to-night-kill cayvie? That seems just so farfetched. Is there another explanation of the mistake that makes Yuma look scummy?
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I'm keeping my vote on yuma still.
Wait, why? Do you think Yuma was scum consciously trying to get cayvie to talk more about her role so that Yuma could then know to night-kill or not-to-night-kill cayvie? That seems just so farfetched. Is there another explanation of the mistake that makes Yuma look scummy?
It's for 2 reasons:
1. Lack of a better option (so far)
2. Yuma not looking any townier since the incident
I'm getting some reads from the wagon, which is what I wanted. Of all the wagons/discussions/debates, this is the one that's been the most helpful so far.
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@Insomniac: I don't think Voltaire fits the description of the type of behavior I was describing at all. I don't mind the fast-votes, which didn't seem to piggyback off each other. I might have reflexively made one too if I had been online in real time. I am looking for agonizing and hedging. I don't think I found any. The most suspicious Yuma-voter I found is Voltgloss, not Voltaire. And now I have to read today's Voltgloss controversies better before I can say conclusive things there, because it sounds like he's saying he was mainly gambitting with his vote.
No, Voltgloss also votes fast and his next post is the one explaining that it's a gambit.
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I'm keeping my vote on yuma still.
Wait, why? Do you think Yuma was scum consciously trying to get cayvie to talk more about her role so that Yuma could then know to night-kill or not-to-night-kill cayvie? That seems just so farfetched. Is there another explanation of the mistake that makes Yuma look scummy?
It's for 2 reasons:
1. Lack of a better option (so far)
2. Yuma not looking any townier since the incident
I'm getting some reads from the wagon, which is what I wanted. Of all the wagons/discussions/debates, this is the one that's been the most helpful so far.
Oh, and perhaps the most important: fear of no lynch. Which isn't a problem yet, but it's while you'll see me vote for someone else instead of just unvoting yuma at some point, should I switch my vote before the deadline.
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What did "just come out with it, man!" mean? (a few posts of yours ago)
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What did "just come out with it, man!" mean? (a few posts of yours ago)
It was aimed at you, because Insomniac called me out for that perceived behavior you describe earlier, and I think someone else hinted they suspect me because of it. It sounded like you were describing me without naming me.
Now I dispute this version of events, obviously, but I quite like that it's happening. It's info/discussion from the yuma wagon, just like I wanted.
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OK, looks like Voltaire went offline before reading the question I just asked. But anyway, vote: Voltaire.
Explanation: reading over the yuma-wagon, it didn't appear to me that anyone really engaged in the sort of hedgy behavior that I had hoped to find. It's true that Voltaire talked a little more, but that's because he was interacting with cayvie/yuma as the mistake-avalanche was going down (i.e. between the time yuma first voted for cayvie, then rolefished, then realized what had gone wrong). And he voted pretty fast and was the one who bolded the particularly bad sentence. So Voltaire looked perfectly fine to me upon that re-read. Then, I get back to talk about it, and there's posts from Voltaire saying "just come out with it, man!" at me, in response to Insomniac saying that when I go back and read I'm gonna think Voltaire is sketchy. In other words, just from my description of a hypothetical scummy yuma-voter, Voltaire gets paranoid. He thinks I'm talking about him and couldn't possibly be talking about anyone else, just because I said I was looking for scummy yuma-voters. Why else would he think this?
PPE: voltaire is back but seems to confirm that what I read is what he meant by "just come out with it, man!" No, I wasn't describing you. But he says that someone else hinted (besides insom) that he was particularly scummy among the yuma-wagon. I don't remember that; if you find that it will justify your paranoia to me.
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OK, looks like Voltaire went offline before reading the question I just asked. But anyway, vote: Voltaire.
Explanation: reading over the yuma-wagon, it didn't appear to me that anyone really engaged in the sort of hedgy behavior that I had hoped to find. It's true that Voltaire talked a little more, but that's because he was interacting with cayvie/yuma as the mistake-avalanche was going down (i.e. between the time yuma first voted for cayvie, then rolefished, then realized what had gone wrong). And he voted pretty fast and was the one who bolded the particularly bad sentence. So Voltaire looked perfectly fine to me upon that re-read. Then, I get back to talk about it, and there's posts from Voltaire saying "just come out with it, man!" at me, in response to Insomniac saying that when I go back and read I'm gonna think Voltaire is sketchy. In other words, just from my description of a hypothetical scummy yuma-voter, Voltaire gets paranoid. He thinks I'm talking about him and couldn't possibly be talking about anyone else, just because I said I was looking for scummy yuma-voters. Why else would he think this?
PPE: voltaire is back but seems to confirm that what I read is what he meant by "just come out with it, man!" No, I wasn't describing you. But he says that someone else hinted (besides insom) that he was particularly scummy among the yuma-wagon. I don't remember that; if you find that it will justify your paranoia to me.
My reaction is that your read of the "come out with it is wrong" but I want to hear voltaire state his reasons. I'm not going to let him crib my explanation.
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Missed a quotation mark in right place, fixed here.
My reaction is that your read of the "come out with it man" is wrong but I want to hear voltaire state his reasons. I'm not going to let him crib my explanation.
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OK, looks like Voltaire went offline before reading the question I just asked. But anyway, vote: Voltaire.
[snip]
PPE: voltaire is back but seems to confirm that what I read is what he meant by "just come out with it, man!" No, I wasn't describing you. But he says that someone else hinted (besides insom) that he was particularly scummy among the yuma-wagon. I don't remember that; if you find that it will justify your paranoia to me.
Insom jumps on me at 509, Axxle says he was going to find me scummy due to the cayvie/Eevee mixup in 517 (but doesn't after I explain). I read you today posting about this, then sure enough, Insom repeats his claim. It's just me liking to avoid being the D1 lynch, because what fun is that? But it's good for the town. No biggie.
As for another poster, looks like it was Axxle. What you're seeing is me supressing OMGUS (see: the whole "us" debacle in ZM1) after my scumhunting on Yuma starts to draw votes at me. Sometimes I fire off short, sarcastic posts and I've been trying to curb that as not helpful, to town (or, less importantly, my own odds of living). From your earlier comments on limited posting to more substantive areas, I'd take it you agree. Perhaps not with me, but the instinct.
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Protip: that explanation is significantly less rational than then one I had thought up. So either you're bad at explaining yourself, or there's something suspicious going on.
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Missed a quotation mark in right place, fixed here.
My reaction is that your read of the "come out with it man" is wrong but I want to hear voltaire state his reasons. I'm not going to let him crib my explanation.
What did you think I was saying?
PPE: Well then...here we are.
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Voltaire reads town. Ehunt reads scum.
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Meh, huh. Reread it appears that you said about what I was thinking, you just were less clear than I thought you could be. Protip rescinded.
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I have not-good feelings about Galzria. His "Oh if lurking is so ok I'm gonna lurk then" is ... like a petulant child really.
But when Galz reads scummy it's usually a good sign. So I'll just move my vote back to Vote: ehunt.
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I have not-good feelings about Galzria. His "Oh if lurking is so ok I'm gonna lurk then" is ... like a petulant child really.
But when Galz reads scummy it's usually a good sign. So I'll just move my vote back to Vote: ehunt.
Why should I play the game when others won't?
Why should I be punished for playing when others get to fly through by not playing?
Give me a good answer, and I'll join. Otherwise, I see no benefit to town by my playing. If lurking means I get to survive for free, it's better for town that I lurk.
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I have not-good feelings about Galzria. His "Oh if lurking is so ok I'm gonna lurk then" is ... like a petulant child really.
But when Galz reads scummy it's usually a good sign. So I'll just move my vote back to Vote: ehunt.
Why should I play the game when others won't?
Why should I be punished for playing when others get to fly through by not playing?
Give me a good answer, and I'll join. Otherwise, I see no benefit to town by my playing. If lurking means I get to survive for free, it's better for town that I lurk.
No...you have a weapon in addition to your vote, and it is your voice. By talking, you draw others out, and you get them to take positions, etc etc. We've been over this. Talk is pro-town.
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ehunt: how many times do I have to say this:
People have different playstyles, and that's OK.
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Galz, you're not this dense. You know there is a difference between "I'm not gonna kill people just for lurking" and "everyone should lurk all the time."
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How's this for a reason Galz.
Regarding Galzria's and ashersky's spat, I agree with ashersky by the way. But don't think Galzria's point of view is necessarily scummy either.
M-II would like a word with you. I put 0 credibility in long analytical posts.
M-VII would like a word with you. I think scum often stays back and enjoys the show.
Look, no one said "our way" is a bulletproof way to find scum. I just think writing big analytical posts can be a scary task for mafia, because they have to watch carefully to not give themselves away. Depends on the person, a lot.
Oh, don't reverse what I'm saying! Town often DO write big long analytical posts. I'm not saying that doing so is a scumtell. It's just really quite easy for scum to do so as well. However, rapid-fire high post count - even when short - are much, much harder for scum top fake genuinely for long periods of time without slipping. Thus my statement "quantity is often more of a towntell than quality". Not "quality is scummy"
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I have not-good feelings about Galzria. His "Oh if lurking is so ok I'm gonna lurk then" is ... like a petulant child really.
But when Galz reads scummy it's usually a good sign. So I'll just move my vote back to Vote: ehunt.
Why should I play the game when others won't?
Why should I be punished for playing when others get to fly through by not playing?
Give me a good answer, and I'll join. Otherwise, I see no benefit to town by my playing. If lurking means I get to survive for free, it's better for town that I lurk.
No...you have a weapon in addition to your vote, and it is your voice. By talking, you draw others out, and you get them to take positions, etc etc. We've been over this. Talk is pro-town.
Yes. I agree. Don't take a single post of mine as the summation of the disagreement. Joth says lurking is fine. He says we should lynch people who talk and appear scummy over those who don't talk and take no stance on anything. We should let them play for free and not lynch them. If that's acceptable then, then the most pro-town thing I can do to avoid a town mislynch is lurk.
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Uh, shouldn't ever sleep, so much to read.
People striking to me as scummy:
-Morgrim (!!) - I know this is starting to get old but seriously, it's not like he is guaranteed to draw town always. In fact, despite what Robz claims, I could very easily see him making Morg mafia just to see it happen. I'm very surprised to see no one suspect him, and it actually makes him even scummier in my mind. If people want quotes on this, I'll look up the incident with shraeye's sarcasm, that's the most damning evidence I think (yes I've been lazy with notes, should seriously stop reading these on mobile devices >_>).
-Glooble - Playing exactly like scum Glooble. Surely a smart guy, why isn't he being more helpful?
-Grujah - NOT playing like town Grujah. Where are you buddy?
b]Vote: Morgrim7[/b], but interested in pursuing Glooble and Grujah too. So sad I can only vote for one guy.
@Galzria
You are not making much sense right now. I don't think you are mafia and town Galz can do better than that.
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Guys, Galz is simply trying to drive home a point, or perhaps a principle... and it is one that I tend to agree with. But I think the middle ground is perhaps the best: we shouldn't just lynch lurkers for being lurkers, nor should we let them off the hook. We should question them as to why they are lurking, as them specific questions and see how they respond.
For example
ibgtennis: is there any thing else that you find scummy about ftl beside his vote and pressure on you? What do you think of the other wagons that developed while you were gone (ehunt, dsell, yuma and shraeye?)
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@Galzria
You are not making much sense right now. I don't think you are mafia and town Galz can do better than that.
I disagree a ton. Galzria is making a perfectly rational response to an irrational town.
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@Galzria
You are not making much sense right now. I don't think you are mafia and town Galz can do better than that.
I disagree a ton. Galzria is making a perfectly rational response to an irrational town.
I like what yuma said, agree with that.
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some questions for some other "lurkers":
Glooble: Glooble, you say that you are playing with a "what would I do if I were scum" in this game? What would you be doing if you were scum? What would your game plan be?
O: why didn't you claim jester this game? Did Robz actually assign you this role...? Meta-alert!
Cuzz: why do you think compiling a list like the one I made is town? What did you think of the list itself? Do you think it had accurate reads?
Watno: you said the wagon on me looked scummy? is there a player in particular who jumps out at you?
Frisk: what did you think of the wagon that formed on me? Do you still want your vote on TheMunch?
ashersky: I know you are going to be gone for a while, but when you get back: who do you agree with jot or Galz in regard to the lurker question?
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First off,
Vote: O
Your take on voltaire/ehunt is simply terrible. Not your conclusions, you may be correct, but for god's sake, why not put down some explanation. I am willing to read almost any argument, but what are you hoping for here? somebody reads your assessment and goes "yeah! O's pretty cool and a veteran. I bet his read is correct!" That sounds a lot stupider than any assessment that could cause someone to go "I hadn't thought of it that way, I find myself agreeing with that argument."
Second, yuma's analysis reminded me that I wanted to talk about watno. Yuma's analysis seems to point out some contradictions. Like first he doesn't see me as scummy then does. So I wanted to know what changed. watno explained himself by saying I was acti-lurking. But yuma's summary of him talking heavily about acti-lurking makes me feel super suspicious. Why are you voting shraeye for doing something that you are also doing? I decided to go look into his posts and come up with my own interpretation. Here is that effort
Post #250 watno says that he's played Mafia before (in German)
#262 possibly real suspicion, possible joke that Morgrim needs help to "play scum."
#326 describe's glooble's "no quantifiable reason yet" vote on shraeye as possibly sheeping; decides that I'm nitpicky but not scum
#328 corrects yuma's misinterpretation of ehunts one-per-day statement
#373 This will be major point A
#377 Says that actively lurking is more scummy than regular lurking
#379 clarifies previous post by saying what acti-lurking is
#608 long time between posts; This is major point B
Major point A
Refuses to see content in my posts.
When a quick wagon formed on my sarcasm, that was understandable. But I was waiting for the steam to pick up in a different way. What I mean is, the people who voted me because they thought they caught a "scummy scumslip" just hadn't yet arrived in their minds to the punchline of the joke. But still, that was a large portion of people and some disagreed with that. So I had a large wagon, but also had plenty of people who explicitly weren't willing to vote for me based on sarcasm. If I were scum watching that happen, I would look for an opportunity to jump on, add a vote, BUT DO IT FOR A DIFFERENT REASON. So it adds strength to the wagon not only in terms of another vote, but also so that people who didn't want to vote based onsarcasm now had the opportunity to vote for another reason. watno fit this description.
vote shraeye
I guess this is a good example of acti-lurking. We shouldn't discuss about what words to use, but find scum. If you didn't get what ashersky wanted to say, why not just ask?
Its not completely clear what he means by this, so I looked at the last few posts I made. In #373 right before that I made a 3 paragraph argument seeing what I would do if I were axxle with the double vote. That feels like actual content to me and to say that I was "only posting stuff that's not relevant to the game" (that's your definition of acti-lurking from #379) is as false of an assessment as you could make. The post I made before #373 was #369. That has "point number A" that also speculates about double-vote "point number B" that was a defense of myself describing the situation as it developed from my perspective (sorry, is defending oneself acti-lurking? because that also feels to me like content relevant to the game) "point number B and a half" is me talking about my increased levels of sarcasm and answering cayvie's post. None of those seem like I'm posting stuff not relevant to the game, especially when I've been pushed by people to explain myself (cayvie, morgrim, etc). In the post before #369, (disregarding the +1 for a good joke) I gave everyone my post totals, as this helps us see who's being active, and I thought my numbers were a better picture of that then Insomniac's.
There is no way that these are content-less posts irrelevant to the game, so for you to say I'm actilurking and try to paint me with that brush feels like you're simply looking for another reason for the wagon on me to keep growing. A very scummy push.
Major point B
Trying simply to shoot everyone down instead of actually scumhunting.
He goes after Voltaire for "knowing" that O is lurking intentionally, continues his false argument that all I'm doing is talking about words, jumps on TheMunch for trying to keep posts tidy by waiting for ehunt to finish his 7-point multi-post before TheMunch answered ehunt's question to him. Then he jumps on Frisk for policy voting TheMunch and then not unvoting, FoS's the entire yuma wagon for not realizing yuma's mistake was honest, pokes Morgrim for being late to understand that shray is sarcastic, questions how Voltgloss "knows" there's scum on yumas wagon, chides and votes for the lurkers, then winks at sarcastic joth.
Wowie zowie. You just shot down 7 people/factions. Actually 5 people, 1 entire wagon, and a pair of lurkers. I'm all for pointing out consistencies, but the problem here is you point out so many and all so weakly, that you are pointing the smallest of "fingers of suspicion" in every direction instead of focusing your attention and effort on actually finding scum. I suppose the strategy is vocally suspect everyone just a bit, so that nobody's feathers get ruffled, then point out on day 2 that you were right, trying to gain town cred. To me, this is much more suspicious than a lot of things I've seen going on so far. Seriously, you found all of these things suspicious and off, but none of them were worth a more in depth look at the offending parties?
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Wait, I'm reading my post and there's an unclear bit I'm clarifying here. One time when I said "this" i wasn't referencing an object, i was referencing the word "this". fixed here.
watno fit this description.
vote shraeye
I guess this is a good example of acti-lurking. We shouldn't discuss about what words to use, but find scum. If you didn't get what ashersky wanted to say, why not just ask?
Its not completely clear what he means by the word "this", so I looked at the last few posts I made. In #373 right before that I made a 3 paragraph argument seeing what I would do if I were axxle with the double vote.
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Oh, I just went over my role pm again because I always miss stuff and this time was no different.
I have mod-confirmed information that there is a faction in this game that can recruit people. I would guess we are probably dealing with a cult then. Would be pretty sweet to get the cult leader early, those things tend to be pretty powerful..
For some reason I'm under the impression Robz doesn't like having two scum teams, so I'm thinking it's one big scum team, a cult and maybe a serial killer.
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This is Shraeye's 4th consecutive vote on me. Posting patterns strongly imply there is no posting restriction.
Also, not one person has given a reason why I'm scummy. Only unhelpful.
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Oh, I just went over my role pm again because I always miss stuff and this time was no different.
I have mod-confirmed information that there is a faction in this game that can recruit people. I would guess we are probably dealing with a cult then. Would be pretty sweet to get the cult leader early, those things tend to be pretty powerful..
For some reason I'm under the impression Robz doesn't like having two scum teams, so I'm thinking it's one big scum team, a cult and maybe a serial killer.
Ugh, if there is a cult, there better be some catch to it. Standard cults almost always win. Not to rolefish, but is there anything you can safely reveal about your mod-confirmed info? If there is actually a cult, I think it actually takes priority over mafia hunting. If a cult isn't snuffed out quickly, it becomes unstoppable.
But are you certain it's a faction? Maybe it's just a Neighborhood. Or Masons (though perhaps they would be considered Town faction anyway).
@Cult Leader, please recruit me so I can win with you.
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This is Shraeye's 4th consecutive vote on me. Posting patterns strongly imply there is no posting restriction.
Also, not one person has given a reason why I'm scummy. Only unhelpful.
If you believe not pro-town is scummy, then all of the reasons you're unhelpful are reasons why you're scummy.
From my point of view, I can't possibly imagine how what you're doing is both pro-town and unhelpful, and the right play.
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Here's my scum-reason. Unhelpful=scummy. But that's just too easy. Here's a reason that you are scummy. Remember when you said that a lynch of O wouldn't give any interesting information about other people since you aren't involved in any discussions.
Well flip that around and it means no matter who gets lynched, we are unable to guess/speculate anything about your alignment based on your relation to them. And that is not only unhelpful, but puts personal survival way above the town making good decisions. And that is a position that I can only ascribe to scum.
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This is Shraeye's 4th consecutive vote on me. Posting patterns strongly imply there is no posting restriction.
Also, not one person has given a reason why I'm scummy. Only unhelpful.
Maybe shraeye is a hydra.
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Can we talk a little more about O convincing Cayvie to pull back the vote with a nothing argument? I dont understand why that is not a thing. Eevee said it; I would like more said. I dont know by who or about what. However, I dont know whether to side with Cayvie for following her own no-town-lynch rule and correcting the mistake or to side against Cayvie for breaking it so easily.
I said this early this morning and cuzz managed to allow this to roll passed unnoticed with the help of joking dismissal from Ashersky (600 and 601). I did a reread of the entire goings down and I can at least confirm to myself that this is suspicious as hell and isn't just my morning-tired-brain playing tricks on me. I know there has been a lot thats been said today that deserves to be responded to, but that doesn't make this cayvie vote/unvote any less of an issue.
Dont worry guys, this was 4 pages ago, so I'll do the work of catching you all up. Please pay attention, there will be a test at the end:
He must really not like you then, uh? What else do you know?
I know you all aren't going to end up lynching me, and this lurker-hunt has done nothing but spawn several contentless pages.
::) vote: O if you're gonna be like that
keep it coming. Only scum though, wouldn't want a townie to be mislynched because they got triggerhappy and chased after me.
No. Wait. There wont be a test at the end. Theres going to be a test right now. Question number 1, pens and paper out: What does this actually mean. Clearly, O is trying to make a friendly jab back at Cayvie for calling him out with her vote, but his response doesn't actually make any sense. If he is trying to call out Cayvie, then what does it matter if town or scum jump on his wagon?
This is suspiciously followed up by Cayvie's next post:
oh good point
unvote
No, Cayvie, it wasn't a good point. It was nonsense and wasn't worth either you agreeing with it, or your subsequent unvote.
This is where it gets fun. Eevee calls Cayvie out on this.
Do you have a post restriction, cayvie?
no, what's up?
if your comment was a joke, that unvote was weird. if it wasn't a joke, it's even weirder.
eh, mostly just realized i didn't want to be voting O, and decided to say some other words along with it
i see. it was weird because what O said was really not a good point at all..
Question number 2. And this is for everyone in the audience, specifically Cayvie and anyone else that voted O to get him out from lurking and then let him get off with say-nothing-arguments, what has O actually contributed (other than a solid holier-than-thou attitude with which I am personally not amused) that he deserves to get off the hook so easily?
But more importantly question number 3. I dont want to get cayvie to give anymore information. But what I do want is for Cayvie to explain why she felt it necessary to convey how important it was that she not accidentally be caught on a town lynch and then subsequently throw around her vote haphazardly while following it with an immediate withdrawl for no reason. It was suspicious as hell and I want answers.
Test is out of 100, I'll be collecting papers in the back.
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Vote Count 1.10
shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (2) -- O, Jotheonah
O (5) -- ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, Watno, Galzria
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (1) -- Glooble
yuma (3) -- cayvie, Voltaire, Morgrim7
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
igbtennis (1) -- ftl
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Not Voting (7) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Dsell, yuma, Eevee, Voltgloss, Cuzz
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Re: post 663 (not quoting because it's big with lots of nested quotes)
O is saying that he only wants scum to vote for him. If he gets lynched because of a triggerhappy townie, that townie may fall under suspicion when O flips town, and then that townie might subsequently be mislynched.
cayvie says that this is a good point and unvotes, implying she is town and wouldn't want to be mislynched due to chasing after O, who could flip town.
That's what I got out of those quotes. It leaves me neutral on them.
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Guys, Galz is simply trying to drive home a point, or perhaps a principle... and it is one that I tend to agree with. But I think the middle ground is perhaps the best: we shouldn't just lynch lurkers for being lurkers, nor should we let them off the hook. We should question them as to why they are lurking, as them specific questions and see how they respond.
For example
ibgtennis: is there any thing else that you find scummy about ftl beside his vote and pressure on you? What do you think of the other wagons that developed while you were gone (ehunt, dsell, yuma and shraeye?)
ftl hasn't been particularly scummy. but i am having difficulty doing these RVS reads just because we don't have as much to work off of. Regarding the other wagons...The Dsell wagon is dead and i don't know what to think about it, to be honest...i was kind of overwhelmed at that point in the game. Yuma doesn't read as scummy to me, but rather a victim of unnecessary and misunderstood attack...I agree his posts have read as pro-town generally. No comment on shraeye yet, there's a lot to take in on that front. But i dont like how eHunt was originally once a day, then changed that once he realized that'd look scummy. so for now I change to Vote: eHunt
But more generally, there seems to be so much bullshit bullshitting involved in Day 1 (as opposed to legit bullshitting later on); it feels like people can claim "scumslip" or see a pattern in anything when it's likely just random. But isn't that RVS?
ibgtennis, what's the distinction you are drawing between "bullshit bullshitting" and "legit bullshitting?" I think I know what you're trying to say, but would rather you clarify directly.
"bullshit bullshitting" is people just bullshitting during RVS because there isn't much to do and there aren't legitimate reads to be made (even if we think their are reads, we probably are more confident in our judgements than is warranted...dunning-kreuger anybody?)
"legit bullshitting" is all the wonderful strategy and metagaming that comes with the game as we progress. looking forward to it because there will be more substance to work with.
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But more importantly question number 3. I dont want to get cayvie to give anymore information. But what I do want is for Cayvie to explain why she felt it necessary to convey how important it was that she not accidentally be caught on a town lynch and then subsequently throw around her vote haphazardly while following it with an immediate withdrawl for no reason. It was suspicious as hell and I want answers.
I want to clarify this question as I formulated my sentence poorly. I started out by saying I didn't want Cayvie to give more information (the whole Yuma debate) but I should have wrote my sentence in the opposite order. I meant to say:
Why does Cayvie throw around her vote haphazardly while following it with an immediate withdrawl for no reason, given that she had just felt it extremely necessary to convey how important it was that she not accidentally be caught on a town lynch. This to me is a contradiction. I dont know why she says it is so important she doesn't do something, then immediately do it (if that is actually the mistake).
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Oh, I just went over my role pm again because I always miss stuff and this time was no different.
I have mod-confirmed information that there is a faction in this game that can recruit people. I would guess we are probably dealing with a cult then. Would be pretty sweet to get the cult leader early, those things tend to be pretty powerful..
For some reason I'm under the impression Robz doesn't like having two scum teams, so I'm thinking it's one big scum team, a cult and maybe a serial killer.
Ugh, if there is a cult, there better be some catch to it. Standard cults almost always win. Not to rolefish, but is there anything you can safely reveal about your mod-confirmed info? If there is actually a cult, I think it actually takes priority over mafia hunting. If a cult isn't snuffed out quickly, it becomes unstoppable.
But are you certain it's a faction? Maybe it's just a Neighborhood. Or Masons (though perhaps they would be considered Town faction anyway).
@Cult Leader, please recruit me so I can win with you.
It's a faction. I was told I have a passive ability that gets activated if I'm recruited. (So cult leader pick me pick me pick me! I have an ability!)
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Cuzz: why do you think compiling a list like the one I made is town? What did you think of the list itself? Do you think it had accurate reads?
First off, I should mention that my unvote of you was a quick phone post and I gave your list as a reason to briefly justify the unvote. I had always planned on elaborating when I had a chance later. Now, basically I feel like taking the time to compile posting and voting habits, recaps of recent interactions, wagon analyses and the like helps town for the most part, so I get a town vibe from you for having done that. Of course there are some caveats, which I appreciate the ehes (unt and alcyon) pointing out.
One, of course, is that it's only helpful if it's accurate, but I found this to be the case with your list as far as I could tell. The second is that it seems like a townie thing to do, so scum wins points by doing so. That being said, I think it's typically town who does things like this.
I'm certainly not saying you're obvtown for doing so, but I appreciated the compiled info, and I was probably gonna unvote you anyway since your defense against the wagon seemed genuine enough.
While I'm posting things, an unrelated comment for Eevee (emphasis added):
Uh, shouldn't ever sleep, so much to read.
People striking to me as scummy:
-Morgrim (!!) - I know this is starting to get old but seriously, it's not like he is guaranteed to draw town always. In fact, despite what Robz claims, I could very easily see him making Morg mafia just to see it happen. I'm very surprised to see no one suspect him, and it actually makes him even scummier in my mind. If people want quotes on this, I'll look up the incident with shraeye's sarcasm, that's the most damning evidence I think (yes I've been lazy with notes, should seriously stop reading these on mobile devices >_>).
I'd really try to avoid such trains of thought. This is not a bastard game, and Robz has said his playstyle considerations did not affect alignment. We should take him at his word. To do otherwise will lead to madness.
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Unvote . Ibg's doing something now.
Still warning all y'all lurkers, active lurkers, and acti-lurkers out there - sometime during the second week of this D1, I *will* try to start a wagon on someone who has stayed out of sight. Not promising that it'll be the person with the lowest post count, but definitely someone with low content. I'm so tempted to join Galz in being petulant and hiding until that point... but I don't want to spend all my time fighting against the meta instead of playing the game I'm in.
Shraeye, did you mean to vote Watno in your post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108623#msg108623 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108623#msg108623) ? Because you voted O and then posted a case against Watno, unless I'm misreading you. So I'm confused, was that post supposed to justify your O vote somehow, or is your O case that you spend two lines on still stronger than your Watno case?
Eevee, response to a post a bit back that cuzz just quoted: Yes, the Morgrim thing is getting old, but Robz did say that us guessing at Morg's role is something he would look forward to. I tend to think that means that the relationship between morg's role and meta is not obvious and trying to go down that road would lead to huge WIFOM and no conclusions. I have gotten the usual morgrim town reads off morgrim this game; if you want a case on morgrim, you'll have to make it and make it solid. The one time Morgrim was scum - in a super-bastardy game - he ended up outing himself, so I'm not too worried about scum morg pulling a fast one on us. What has he done so far that reads "SCUM MORG"?
I like Munch's case on cayvie. Cayvie was also the one common point between two of the early wagons. She's been on like every wagon so far! Vote: Cayvie .
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I'm not sure if people missed it, but I believe my first post after the game started was stating that the role I received doesn't really fit my meta, imo. Therefore, I put no stock at all in guessing by meta.
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I like Munch's case on cayvie. Cayvie was also the one common point between two of the early wagons. She's been on like every wagon so far! Vote: Cayvie .
Dude, I started the yuma and shraeye wagons!
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I want to clarify this question as I formulated my sentence poorly. I started out by saying I didn't want Cayvie to give more information (the whole Yuma debate) but I should have wrote my sentence in the opposite order. I meant to say:
Why does Cayvie throw around her vote haphazardly while following it with an immediate withdrawl for no reason, given that she had just felt it extremely necessary to convey how important it was that she not accidentally be caught on a town lynch. This to me is a contradiction. I dont know why she says it is so important she doesn't do something, then immediately do it (if that is actually the mistake).
Did I just lynch a townie? Whoopsie!
(the joke is that I didn't)
I voted O for being unhelpful. Then, immediately after I posted, before he posted, I got a pretty strong town read on him. I was kinda looking for any excuse to remove my vote from him.
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I always get a town vibe from cayvie, and it's usually correct. The one time I got a bad vibe from her, she was scum*. I'm still neutral on cayvie (weirdness is weird) but in that position I prefer to let her be. I like having cayvie around because she is usually the hillariousest**. Not to mention, I believe she was quite liberal with her vote in the first game I played with her (MVI I think) and she was town there.
* RMM2, cayvie was cult leader with a NK. I got a bad vibe and there were reasons to be suspicious, but I didn't press hard enough and she managed to lie her way out of it (with some help from Galz, I think). That game was nuts.
** take that, shraeye!
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I always get a town vibe from cayvie, and it's usually correct. The one time I got a bad vibe from her, she was scum*. I'm still neutral on cayvie (weirdness is weird) but in that position I prefer to let her be. I like having cayvie around because she is usually the hillariousest**. Not to mention, I believe she was quite liberal with her vote in the first game I played with her (MVI I think) and she was town there.
* RMM2, cayvie was cult leader with a NK. I got a bad vibe and there were reasons to be suspicious, but I didn't press hard enough and she managed to lie her way out of it (with some help from Galz, I think). That game was nuts.
** take that, shraeye!
Oh, and she's a rather smart cookie. See BMV end game.
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Shraeye, did you mean to vote Watno in your post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108623#msg108623 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108623#msg108623) ? Because you voted O and then posted a case against Watno, unless I'm misreading you. So I'm confused, was that post supposed to justify your O vote somehow, or is your O case that you spend two lines on still stronger than your Watno case?
Nope, I meant to vote O. The vote on O with subsequent explanation and the case against watno are two seperate thoughts in the same post. My vote on O will stay there until he starts contributing to scumhunting. He needs to post up some analysis, take a side on some issues, give explanations for his summaries of discussions that he doesn't feel like contributing to (meaning he doesn't have to jump into the voltaire/ehunt debate, but if he's gonna say that Aire reads town and ehunt reads scummy, explain why). Unless he does this, he's avoiding letting anyone get extra information on him based on not doing anything substantiative.
There are "bad actions" you can make as town, such as pushing for a lynch (or actually lynching) somebody who also turns out to be town. Not only is this badfor your team, but now you (also town) are taking heat for it. But that's the risk that I'm willing to pay for trying to make a correct lynch, or getting good read on people. If you're unwilling to do anything committal, as O is, you certainly avoid making bad actions, but you also preclude any chance of doing good things. And at the end of the day, nobody has any extra information on you, who you supported and who you suspected. O is doing literally nothing that is helping town, or even trying to help town. That's terrible strategy as town, and why I'm 100% behind lynching him until his behavior changes.
The case on Watno needed a good summary, and needed to come to people's attention, but I still want to lynch worthless-O more than scummy-watno.
That being said, I still am actively scumhunting instead of tunnelling in on O. Hence the content about watno.
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@yuma o the lurking issue--not to take sides, but I don't think it is helpful to town to not offer up your opinions and insights when you have them. And if you have none, you aren't very helpful (or fun). So, don't lurk.
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@yuma o the lurking issue--not to take sides, but I don't think it is helpful to town to not offer up your opinions and insights when you have them. And if you have none, you aren't very helpful (or fun). So, don't lurk.
what?
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@yuma o the lurking issue--not to take sides, but I don't think it is helpful to town to not offer up your opinions and insights when you have them. And if you have none, you aren't very helpful (or fun). So, don't lurk.
what?
nevermind, I figured it out; I thought for a bit that all the "you" in your sentence were direct to me in that I was lurking and not offering opinions and insights
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Here's your Morgrimlist:
1. Ftl: Votes for lurkers. Townish read.
2. Voltgloss: Also votes for lurkers. Not so bad
3. Eevee: So Eevee thinks I'm scummy. What else is new.
4. Grujah: Not acting normal at all. FoS: Grujah
5. Insomniac: Not much of a read
6. Glooble: Not acting normal either. Maybe because he isn't scum this time?
7. Dsell: Not much action.
8. Jotheonah: Active, but doesn't want to lynch lurkers
9. Young Nick: Poor guy :(
10. Voltaire: Eevee is fuzzy. Cayvie has that funny signature.
11. Axxle: doesn't suspect yuma
12. O: Arrrg really agrivating!
13. Cayvie: acting normal
14. Shraeye: not so bad, now that i realized about the sarcasam
15. Cuzz: no read
16. Yuma: Could be scum, I'm still ok with lynching them
17. igbtennis: no read
18. TheMunch: no read
19. Morgrim7: hi
20. EHalcyon: normal
21. Watno: no read
22. Galzria: Not much action
23. Captain_Frisk: no read
24. ehunt: could be scum
25. ashersky: no read
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4. Grujah: Not acting normal at all. FoS: Grujah
6. Glooble: Not acting normal either. Maybe because he isn't scum this time?
care to elaborate on these?
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4. Grujah: Not acting normal at all. FoS: Grujah
6. Glooble: Not acting normal either. Maybe because he isn't scum this time?
care to elaborate on these?
care to elaborate on all of the above?
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12. O: Arrrg really agrivating!
...which is normal. There you go, O. I am making the "he's O" argument for you. :P
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b]Vote: Morgrim7[/b], but interested in pursuing Glooble and Grujah too. So sad I can only vote for one guy.
Eevee I don't think Robz caught your Morgrim vote in his last vote count, likely due to the formatting...
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I re-read Morgrim, actually wrote a post about his behavior here, but finally came to the conclusion it doesn't look like he is mafia after all. Could be the cult, could be a serial killer, but don't think his behaviour is mafia-like. So Unvote even though my vote never got recorded.
Moving onto my next target, Vote: Grujah. I picked Grujah over Glooble because this also serves as a prod to get Grujah posting. Glooble is a very close 2nd in the suspicions-list.
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Moving onto my next target, Vote: Grujah. I picked Grujah over Glooble because this also serves as a prod to get Grujah posting. Glooble is a very close 2nd in the suspicions-list.
I get Glooble, why Grujah?
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I do not find glooble scummy.
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Grujah's activity in this game this far (grand total of five posts):
Big pile of his personal opinions of everyone's general playstyle. Not that I mind him posting this, but scum-Grujah would have no trouble at all compiling this one. Tells us absolutely nothing about his alignments in this game.
Actually, Voltgloss is way more throughout/therille/whatever-the-word-i-want is than Galz, now that I think of it.
What I mean by that is..
He goes to read things that happened and reads everything and considers everything and so. Maybe that goes under elaborate as well.
Also, Volt is against no-lynch, thats he's meta too.
4. Grujah - Hates Morgrim.
OMG, where did you get this from?
I've never even voted Morgrim aside from that Frisk's silly BMV. (ok, it is true that he was conf townie to me once, but I didn't go against him at all in IX, for example). I just didn't udnerstand his game from before, but aside from that, I like the guy.
I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.
That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.
Yeah, I just quoted all but one of Grujah's posts in this game, and that one post was - while entertaining to read - just a big pile of IIoA. And Grujah is usually a pretty active guy too. If we are going to go after lurkers, I think Grujah is clearly the choice - he has posted rarely (which is unlike him) and, when he has posted, he has said exactly one thing relevant to this game (his suspicion of Glooble, which I for the record do find justified.. but also rather easy, he can't really be blamed for that vote if Gloob flips town at some point).
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I do not find glooble scummy.
How is Glooblemaister playing different from the million games where he was scum? Or are you saying he is, but that's not scummy to you?
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Vote Count 1.11
shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (3) -- O, Jotheonah, ibgtennis
O (5) -- ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, Watno, Galzria
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Eevee
yuma (2) -- Voltaire, Morgrim7
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
cayvie (1) -- ftl
Not Voting (7) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Dsell, yuma, Voltgloss, Cuzz, Cayvie
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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I don't think I'm voting for anyone right now, Robz.
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I don't think I'm voting for anyone right now, Robz.
Yeah I think I forgot to put you in the Not Voting category after you voted and unvoted O. I fixed this in the latest vote count.
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Thanks Eevee, for elaborating on Grujah. Gloob: He hasn't posted as much, and it seems like he is trying to help the town...but wait...he does that every game...shoot now i'm confused...
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Just a theory argument: in the presence of a cult, if you have mod-confirmed information that somebody is town, you probably shouldn't disclose it, even if you are about to be lynched (the problem being that you create obvtowns... who then aren't town anymore). Does anyone disagree?
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also, will be V/LA this weekend.
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Just a theory argument: in the presence of a cult, if you have mod-confirmed information that somebody is town, you probably shouldn't disclose it, even if you are about to be lynched (the problem being that you create obvtowns... who then aren't town anymore). Does anyone disagree?
ugh this is probably true. cults are very annoying!
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Just a theory argument: in the presence of a cult, if you have mod-confirmed information that somebody is town, you probably shouldn't disclose it, even if you are about to be lynched (the problem being that you create obvtowns... who then aren't town anymore). Does anyone disagree?
ugh this is probably true. cults are very annoying!
on the other hand, if they're about to be lynched, that's a different story. then you should share, I think (and the next day whoever is alive should just keep in mind that alignments can change).
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I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.
I've been trying to set aside my contrarianism and my general appreciation of O's playstyle to see if this "We need to change the meta on lurking" argument is one I should be landing on the other side of.
So, here is what I would like to hear a response about from Galzria, ehunt, and whomever else wants to pseudo-policy lynch O:
One of the best ways to catch scum from Day 2 onward is by looking at wagons. My big hangup on a lurker lynch, or any policy lynch, is that it's too safe a wagon to get on. Say we lynch O. Say he flips town. Then what do we really learn from an O wagon full of people who shrug their shoulders and say "Lynch all Lurkers, man."?
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I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.
I don't! I don't think too many people do either, really.
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I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.
I've been trying to set aside my contrarianism and my general appreciation of O's playstyle to see if this "We need to change the meta on lurking" argument is one I should be landing on the other side of.
So, here is what I would like to hear a response about from Galzria, ehunt, and whomever else wants to pseudo-policy lynch O:
One of the best ways to catch scum from Day 2 onward is by looking at wagons. My big hangup on a lurker lynch, or any policy lynch, is that it's too safe a wagon to get on. Say we lynch O. Say he flips town. Then what do we really learn from an O wagon full of people who shrug their shoulders and say "Lynch all Lurkers, man."?
I know you didn't ask me, but I think I can answer - we don't gain any meaningful information in this game. We do create a better meta for future games. And therein lies the problem. It is better for all games if we Lynch all Lurkers, but it is never good for an individual game to policy-lynch a lurker.
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You learn the same as any other lynch on a townie D1. The people onboard will be naturally suspicious, the people not onboard will be less suspicious.
The advantage is that you'll be left with a town full of people who are willing to talk and take stances on things, and making associations and statements that can be evaluated later.
Or, you can lynch people who talk and are active, hit town anyway (like always happens), and be left with people who've done nothing, said nothing, taken no stances, and been uninvolved.
But hey, penalize people for playing, and reward others for not. That makes sense.
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I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.
I don't! I don't think too many people do either, really.
Agreed.
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You learn the same as any other lynch on a townie D1. The people onboard will be naturally suspicious, the people not onboard will be less suspicious.
I don't think that's true though. Everyone on the wagon will have the same perfectly good, community-sanctioned reason for being on it. We won't learn anything by analyzing when and why they voted like we normally can.
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Also, cross posting this at the suggestion of Yuma and Voltgloss:
Well, my PoV is from that of almost always town:
Town has one weapon: Their voice.
As the game progresses, town starts with 0 information and gains more by detailing what every other player did with their weapon. By collecting this information, town can deduce who has used their weapon honestly, and who has done so dishonestly - we accomplish this by holding each individuals words and votes against the continuous stream of alignment flips.
When a player, scum or otherwise, comes along and fails to participate (intentionally or not), they are depriving the town of knowledge: how they use their weapon. As the game goes on, and we have more and more alignment flips, what we haven't learned becomes much more pronounced.
Every person is going to have a scale of townie things they've done on one side, and scummy on the other. At any given point the town must decide who is most likely scum - and they will need a larger than majority town vote to do so. Considerthat even on the most pressure free D1 in a standard setup, it takes 5 of 9 to lynch - but to lynch scum takes 5 of 7. D2 is 4 of 5 and D3 is 3 of 3.
Because of this, a player who contributes nothing has little to no weight on his scale. The town has nothing to judge him by, and no reason to trust his opinions when he does post something. With an ever increasing % of the town vote needed to lynch scum, town must make come to a consensus on the following choices:
Vote a lurker whom we know nothing of
Or
Vote someone who has inevitably done some scummy things throughout the game
You are penalizing people for playing the game every single time you choose the second option - and as each deadline draws nearer, the issue becomes more compounded, increasing the pressure to choose option 2.
What's truly sad is that the "lurker" has just as often been town as scum - but that's irrelevant. One individual is not greater than the whole in Mafia, and thus any town member involved in the game who chooses to lurk is not only playing for selfish reasons of wanting to stay alive longer, but is also both making the game significantly harder for town to win, and making it less enjoyable for the people who signed up to play - because those people take the fall time and again while the lurkers get to stay alive.
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(The above by Galz is from the just-finished ZM2 spectators' thread, FYI.)
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you guys have managed to fill this thread with page after page of contentless drivel about lurking. Meanwhile, you've all failed to realized I'm not really lurking.
*slow clap*
I for one think scum are in the people dominating the discussion at the moment, so I shall focus there.
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you guys have managed to fill this thread with page after page of contentless drivel about lurking. Meanwhile, you've all failed to realized I'm not really lurking.
We know you're not lurking. We know you're reading the thread. You're just not saying anything helpful. (For whoever asked me awhile back how I knew O was doing this, I already explained, but here's my proof I was right)
Until the second part of your post, O, which is helpful. You should post more like that.
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I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.
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I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.
The discussion came up organically in that QT and was not related to this game originally, but to the f.ds meta. Others suggested it could be helpful if posted here. If it's fair play for everyone to have the whole thing, here: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/Z9hvg6r59bnQ
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I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.
It's A) a community discussion, B) wasn't directly relevant to this thread, and C) was an explanation as to why I won't be participating in any other Mafia games.
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Maaan.
I hope Young Nick has some good things to say when he joins us tomorrow.
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I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.
But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."
ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.
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I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.
It's A) a community discussion, B) wasn't directly relevant to this thread, and C) was an explanation as to why I won't be participating in any other Mafia games.
You're dropping out of future games? Huh?
On topic: I have a town read on O right now. I feel he is contributing little, but enough. There are less helpful people (ibg, for instance), so why isn't there any pressure there? There are other players who feel absent as well, though I'm not sure if their post counts reflect it. Glooble, for example. Watno, a little bit. Maybe they've been around (hard to tell in such a big game) but I don't remember much of them at all.
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How about a vote: Axxle
He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.
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I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.
But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."
ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.
To be fair even though it was a town on town fight I feel our argument in ZM2 was super beneficial to the rest of the people playing and helped get reasoning which did finger frisk even if Robz was the only one voting him for random reasons.
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I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.
But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."
ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.
To be fair even though it was a town on town fight I feel our argument in ZM2 was super beneficial to the rest of the people playing and helped get reasoning which did finger frisk even if Robz was the only one voting him for random reasons.
I wasn't even egging you guys on!
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I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.
But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."
ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.
To be fair even though it was a town on town fight I feel our argument in ZM2 was super beneficial to the rest of the people playing and helped get reasoning which did finger frisk even if Robz was the only one voting him for random reasons.
I wasn't even egging you guys on!
Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...
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Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...
I'm not, because I'm not this time.
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
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How can you guys discuss going after lurkers and not even mention my case on Grujah? I'm starting to wonder if I even remembered to post it..
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?
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Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...
Not for that reason, because that's not how odds work. o wait, Robz made this game.
Seriously though, I'll vote Frisk only if he's doing his normal scummy thing, and I can't tell yet. Now that my games have calmed down I can devote more time to this one, so I'm re-reading the thread. I'm only on post 299.
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Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...
Not for that reason, because that's not how odds work. o wait, Robz made this game.
Seriously though, I'll vote Frisk only if he's doing his normal scummy thing, and I can't tell yet. Now that my games have calmed down I can devote more time to this one, so I'm re-reading the thread. I'm only on post 299.
I'm not sure what my normal scummy thing is, as I try to play the same way - and my lurkiness / involvement is proportional proportional to game size and madness, but if and when I do it, you'll find you're mistaken.
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I disagree on the wagon information still, but even conceding you that point, you're left with:
Low information wagon, high information people.
The problem isn't today. It's not tomorrow. It's down the line in lylo, or the day before.
Town wins by accumulating information over the course of a game on each individual. Giving anybody a pass from providing that information is ridiculous. There's a reason "Lynch all Liars" exist. There's a reason "Lynch all Lurkers" exist. Is it detrimental to the game you're currently in? Possibly. But the people responsible are the ones that lurked. If you're town and lurking you're simply being selfish. You're putting your own survival (in this community) above that of your factions win. Not only are your opinions worthless later on, but you've established no record of trust with your fellow teammembers. This is a team game, not an individual exercise.
What our boils down to is: If you sign up, play. If you roll scum, do whatever the hell you want - you're scum after all. But if you roll town you should actively be trying to help town win. If you're actively NOT trying, then it's in Towns best interest not to have you there. Maybe not this game, but long-term. Because town needs contributions from every player. If every player is participating, then there's no issue. If someone lurks, lynch them and find scum. But the moment you claim that we should lynch scummy behavior before lurking, you've essentially said that you'll lynch every player before a lurker - because every player is inevitably scummy at some point for something.
So yes, it's an entire meta shift to better, stronger town play. Go back and read the last X many scum QT's and there is always at least one person who suggests they'll just lurk their way through - AND IT WORKS - when it never, ever should.
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I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.
I've been trying to set aside my contrarianism and my general appreciation of O's playstyle to see if this "We need to change the meta on lurking" argument is one I should be landing on the other side of.
So, here is what I would like to hear a response about from Galzria, ehunt, and whomever else wants to pseudo-policy lynch O:
One of the best ways to catch scum from Day 2 onward is by looking at wagons. My big hangup on a lurker lynch, or any policy lynch, is that it's too safe a wagon to get on. Say we lynch O. Say he flips town. Then what do we really learn from an O wagon full of people who shrug their shoulders and say "Lynch all Lurkers, man."?
Well, O isn't guilty of lurking anymore. Is that because of the small wagon on him, or because he just decided out of the goodness of his heart to be helpful to town? We don't know. I basically agree with you that if the lurker ends up getting lynched without ever coming back it's a bad scenario for town - little information is gained. But if the lurker is still around at LyLo, that's even worse. The hope is to pressure the lurker into stopping lurking.
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?
Similar to Axxle.
Posting a minimum of content.
I'm just going through the thread right now, looking at each player's entire postlog by itself, and picking out the ones who I feel have contributed the least.
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I'm quoting the wrong post, but good point. Vote: Axxle for lurking, and apparent double voting (which may or may not be him).
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How about a vote: Axxle
He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.
I need to reread everything he's posted but I'm tentatively on board with this. I've been thinking for some time that he's been contentless.
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?
Similar to Axxle.
Posting a minimum of content.
I'm just going through the thread right now, looking at each player's entire postlog by itself, and picking out the ones who I feel have contributed the least.
I'm doing the same thing. I'll post my list when done, cayvie. If you share yours, it should really help pressure those on both lists.
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I'm quoting the wrong post, but good point. Vote: Axxle for lurking, and apparent double voting (which may or may not be him).
Why would double voting be anti town?
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Go back and read the last X many scum QT's and there is always at least one person who suggests they'll just lurk their way through - AND IT WORKS - when it never, ever should.
And yet scum is still only under 50% win rate so obv lynch all lurkers isn't a good idea.
Do you think it would have been good to lynch bozzball in M2?
Also I will say that I have a problem with lurking in smaller games, but in games like this if no one lurks you just bog down the game and makes it less fun, I still like this game but I would have prefered a 13 or under version of this game, 25 is just massive. I also do not believe Robz giving the permission to hang back is the same as lurking, I'm posting far less this game than normal because I'm taking a Robz style if I don't have anything to say approach, if I didn't I'd go insane.
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How about a vote: Axxle
He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.
I need to reread everything he's posted but I'm tentatively on board with this. I've been thinking for some time that he's been contentless.
Erm, I know it doesn't look like it from the timestamp, but I had not seen Galz' post when I wrote this. I was catching up on the thread.
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I'm quoting the wrong post, but good point. Vote: Axxle for lurking, and apparent double voting (which may or may not be him).
Why would double voting be anti town?
It could be either.
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No, I actually like wagons on me as a general rule. More fun as both town/scum (though much more fun as town because they're all wrong and you're all right).
If we try to go through this terrible meta of lynch all lurkers D1 I will just lurk D1 as town and get lynched enough times that people abandon the meta. Lurking later days is bad, it's really not that bad D1 and it just gives a perfect excuse for scum to lynch town with no repercussions (see my policy on "deadline and nolynch is bad" lynches, where ehunt would argue that 7 townies and 2 scum is a better position to be in than 8 townies and 2 scum)
Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).
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How about a vote: Axxle
He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.
I need to reread everything he's posted but I'm tentatively on board with this. I've been thinking for some time that he's been contentless.
Erm, I know it doesn't look like it from the timestamp, but I had not seen Galz' post when I wrote this. I was catching up on the thread.
I wouldn't be so worried about being early on a wagon when it takes 13 to lynch. We've got to adjust our normal expectations.
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Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).
Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.
Not Galz though. And with good reason.
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Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).
Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.
Not Galz though. And with good reason.
He left M2 out because there WAS a lurker problem there, he said the other ones DIDN'T have lurker issues. so M2 should be with MVII
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Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).
Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.
Not Galz though. And with good reason.
it was my understanding that the problem was that he was V/LA at a critical point, not lurking.
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Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).
Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.
Not Galz though. And with good reason.
it was my understanding that the problem was that he was V/LA at a critical point, not lurking.
He posted, like, less than 10 times the entire thread. I don't think I'm exaggerating.
Insom, I think you misread O's post. Or maybe I did? But based on O's response I don't think I did.
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Vote Count 1.12
shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (3) -- O, Jotheonah, ibgtennis
O (4) -- ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, Watno
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Eevee
yuma (2) -- Voltaire, Morgrim7
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
cayvie (1) -- ftl
Axxle (2) -- cayvie, Galzria
Not Voting (6) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Dsell, yuma, Voltgloss, Cuzz
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Lurkers;
Not only generally considered bad players, but often bad people as well. ;D
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lurking
Which basically sums up exactly why such tactics from any player are infuriating.
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If you're town and lurking you're simply being selfish. You're putting your own survival (in this community) above that of your factions win
Not necessarily. If you have a power role, it may be best for town if you do your utmost to survive.
I agree on the whole though -- contributing is important and there are compelling reasons to lynch lurkers and liars. But there are edge cases.
And I do believe that O is far from being the least helpful in the town at this point.
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If you're town and lurking you're simply being selfish. You're putting your own survival (in this community) above that of your factions win
Not necessarily. If you have a power role, it may be best for town if you do your utmost to survive.
I agree on the whole though -- contributing is important and there are compelling reasons to lynch lurkers and liars. But there are edge cases.
And I do believe that O is far from being the least helpful in the town at this point.
I agree, and I haven't singled him out. I was voting for him when, at the time, he was. Now not so much. Like I said, if everybody is participating, there's no problem.
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Sry for not posting much, I had less time in the last couple of days then expected. It will probably get better tomorrow.
@Voltgloss:
I was hoping more scum would pile on before people started seriously questioning this wagon, but getting at least one scum to join (and I agree with yuma that probably at least one did) is worth something to talk about today.
What I was trying to say regarding this is that I find it a bit strange that you base your thoughts on assumption there's no real evidence for. I think it might be possible, that you in fact know there was scum on that wagon, but had to justify it because you couldn't admit you do.
Watno: you said the wagon on me looked scummy? is there a player in particular who jumps out at you?
Because it seemed kinda farfetched to me that you were intentionally fishing. Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye and Insomniac jump out to me a bit more, since they only voted after they were able to see that others were willing to believe it was intentional fishing.
@shraeye: In fact, i think posts #369 was pretty acti-lurky. Speculating about double votes and posting a wall of text about sarcasm don't really contribute to us getting a read on you. Same for posting a list of post numbers. Starting a discussion about wording doesn't get us further either. It looks like youre trying to get us to think you were saying a lot, while in fact, you aren't.
I don't see your problem with my post #608. If people post something i think might be scummy, i point it out and see if they can explain to me why they did. Since there's not a single person I'm convinced is scum yet, I can't go after them excessively.
I agree with Eevee that Grujah seems to be contributing little even in the few posts he makes.
vote: Captain Frisk for still having a vote on TheMunch "so he notices he mustn't edit posts".
Also, since quite a few people are saying differently, I want to point out that Robz didn't say alignments were random. What he said was that it wouldn't be obvious and some people's alignments would be random.
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Axxle's posted 17 times in the whole thread including pregame. There was very very little content in those posts when he did post. I know he mentioned today/yesterday that he wasn't going to be around quite as much but he hasn't posted here for two days. While I'm usually not a big fan of just straight up lynching lurkers, this is out of Axxle's character and his minor level of content has been quite superficial, a la FTL day 1 of BMV.
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Axxle's posted 17 times in the whole thread including pregame. There was very very little content in those posts when he did post. I know he mentioned today/yesterday that he wasn't going to be around quite as much but he hasn't posted here for two days. While I'm usually not a big fan of just straight up lynching lurkers, this is out of Axxle's character and his minor level of content has been quite superficial, a la FTL day 1 of BMV.
Oops, and I meant to include a Vote: Axxle.
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I don't think scum-double-voter-Axxle would have made his double voting so obvious so early on. Plus he hasn't been updating Cosmic Encounter either.
In other news, this town is huge. Some amount of lurking early on from some town is flat-out unavoidable. But I'm still okay with lynching the lurkiest player in the absence of a better option. Grujah still fits that definition though, so my vote stays.
I genuinely thought when ehunt said "post once a day" he meant game day. Knowing he means real life day, I have no problem with that strategy. I often can't manage to get online more often than that myself.
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I don't think scum-double-voter-Axxle would have made his double voting so obvious so early on.
Gah, this is true and probably obvious. It's a whole bunch of WIFOM, but Unvote for now.
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Also, Dsell, dont you think the behaviour your pointing out with Axxle is even more extreme with Grujah?
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Also, Dsell, dont you think the behaviour your pointing out with Axxle is even more extreme with Grujah?
I'll have to reread everything he's written. Has he been active on the rest of the site?
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itouch post: I am unlikely to vote axxle...
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Eevee pointed it out in this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108847#msg108847)
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?
Similar to Axxle.
Posting a minimum of content.
I'm just going through the thread right now, looking at each player's entire postlog by itself, and picking out the ones who I feel have contributed the least.
I'm doing the same thing. I'll post my list when done, cayvie. If you share yours, it should really help pressure those on both lists.
Heads up that this won't be until tomorrow, until the earliest.
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Heads up that this won't be until tomorrow, until the earliest.
Cool beans.
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Hmm, interesting. Unvote for now.
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Unvote my massively outdated vote on O.
Sorry to not be posting as much, blitz 2 and packing up my entire house has kept me busy.
On topic, I agree with whomever said policy lynches (including lurker) don't provide as much info as convo-driven ones. I would prefer it to no lynch, I think, except in a town this size, and with possible multiple NKs, there will probably be plenty to analyze just on night actions.
I haven't been able to read closely, so I don't have much in the way of reads on players, but Frisk seems a bit harsher than his usual self.
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Hmm, interesting. Unvote for now.
what do you find so interesting?
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I agree that Grujah really stands out for not posting much. Ditto for Axxle and ibgtennis. Glad to see O participating more now. I'm not sure any of the votes on him are warranted at the moment. I'm actually curious to hear what shraeye thinks of O now, since he made a point to vote for O in every damn post.
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guys voting for Axxle, Axxle posted about his V/LA in the V/LA thread. Axxle shouldn't be on the list of lurkers just like Young Nick shouldn't.
I'd rather have a 'lynch lurkers' rather than 'let lurkers slide' meta, but I don't want to lynch people for V/LA.
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Oh, my vote is on yuma? Unvote.. I like the lynch all lurkers policy. And O's last post was pretty much saying, "Oh, I'm not lurking" and roughly translated that means, "Don't lynch me". Which either means he is a PR or scum. So, without further reads, I don't know about lynching him at the moment. But, Who hasn't been posting much? Who is usually quite active? Who has played enough games so that we know how he will usually act? Who isn't really acting that way? Who knows better than to lurk? Vote: Grujah
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guys voting for Axxle, Axxle posted about his V/LA in the V/LA thread. Axxle shouldn't be on the list of lurkers just like Young Nick shouldn't.
I'd rather have a 'lynch lurkers' rather than 'let lurkers slide' meta, but I don't want to lynch people for V/LA.
I realized that, amongst other things, which is why I unvoted.
Ibg still hasn't posted much, but he's posted at least some substance. I need to reread Grujah, but honestly I ALWAYS find him scummy, so I tend to be less aggressive when looking for scum-Grujah posts.
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Oh, my vote is on yuma? Unvote.. I like the lynch all lurkers policy. And O's last post was pretty much saying, "Oh, I'm not lurking" and roughly translated that means, "Don't lynch me". Which either means he is a PR or scum. So, without further reads, I don't know about lynching him at the moment.
I disagree with this. I don't really think he's lurking at this point anymore, and certainly not when compared to like, grujah and axxle. I don't get how it makes him a PR or scum, either. O basically has a pattern of doing exactly this, and in fact I think this is more like town-O behavior than scum-O behavior. Doesn't mean all that much, but it's something.
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Oh, my vote is on yuma? Unvote.. I like the lynch all lurkers policy. And O's last post was pretty much saying, "Oh, I'm not lurking" and roughly translated that means, "Don't lynch me". Which either means he is a PR or scum. So, without further reads, I don't know about lynching him at the moment. But, Who hasn't been posting much? Who is usually quite active? Who has played enough games so that we know how he will usually act? Who isn't really acting that way? Who knows better than to lurk? Vote: Grujah
"I'm not lurking" doesn't necessarily translate to "don't lynch me".
"Don't lynch me" doesn't have anything to do with alignment or power. Nobody wants to be lynched, and it's better for town if we don't lynch any townies, whether PR or Vanilla. Arguing against your own lynch doesn't automatically make you scum or PR. Not everyone is so cavalier as to self-hammer whenever possible. :P
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Axxle said
Cutting back on how much I access the site, so things might go slower than usual in my CE games.
He didn't say "I'm not going to post in this thread for 48 hours".
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And it has been 48 hours; his last post was this:
Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
He's posted nineteen times on the forums since then.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=604
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Oh, my vote is on yuma? Unvote.. I like the lynch all lurkers policy. And O's last post was pretty much saying, "Oh, I'm not lurking" and roughly translated that means, "Don't lynch me". Which either means he is a PR or scum. So, without further reads, I don't know about lynching him at the moment. But, Who hasn't been posting much? Who is usually quite active? Who has played enough games so that we know how he will usually act? Who isn't really acting that way? Who knows better than to lurk? Vote: Grujah
"I'm not lurking" doesn't necessarily translate to "don't lynch me".
"Don't lynch me" doesn't have anything to do with alignment or power. Nobody wants to be lynched, and it's better for town if we don't lynch any townies, whether PR or Vanilla. Arguing against your own lynch doesn't automatically make you scum or PR. Not everyone is so cavalier as to self-hammer whenever possible. :P
No, but he does flat out state that he won't be lynched:
He must really not like you then, uh? What else do you know?
I know you all aren't going to end up lynching me, and this lurker-hunt has done nothing but spawn several contentless pages.
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some questions for some other "lurkers":
Glooble: Glooble, you say that you are playing with a "what would I do if I were scum" in this game? What would you be doing if you were scum? What would your game plan be?
Glooble has not responded in his one post since I asked this.
O: why didn't you claim jester this game? Did Robz actually assign you this role...? Meta-alert!
O has not responded in his six posts since I asked this.
Cuzz: why do you think compiling a list like the one I made is town? What did you think of the list itself? Do you think it had accurate reads?
First off, I should mention that my unvote of you was a quick phone post and I gave your list as a reason to briefly justify the unvote. I had always planned on elaborating when I had a chance later. Now, basically I feel like taking the time to compile posting and voting habits, recaps of recent interactions, wagon analyses and the like helps town for the most part, so I get a town vibe from you for having done that. Of course there are some caveats, which I appreciate the ehes (unt and alcyon) pointing out.
One, of course, is that it's only helpful if it's accurate, but I found this to be the case with your list as far as I could tell. The second is that it seems like a townie thing to do, so scum wins points by doing so. That being said, I think it's typically town who does things like this.
Watno: you said the wagon on me looked scummy? is there a player in particular who jumps out at you?
Because it seemed kinda farfetched to me that you were intentionally fishing. Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye and Insomniac jump out to me a bit more, since they only voted after they were able to see that others were willing to believe it was intentional fishing.
Frisk: what did you think of the wagon that formed on me? Do you still want your vote on TheMunch?
Frisk has not replied to this in his five posts since I asked this.
ashersky: I know you are going to be gone for a while, but when you get back: who do you agree with jot or Galz in regard to the lurker question?
@yuma o the lurking issue--not to take sides, but I don't think it is helpful to town to not offer up your opinions and insights when you have them. And if you have none, you aren't very helpful (or fun). So, don't lurk.
I don't ask questions lightly; they are an opportunity to glean information and an opportunity for a potential scum player to slip and make a mistake or make a contradiction that can be pointed out later. For now I'll vote: Glooble for not responding to a valid question.
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I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.
I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?
Insomniac, Insomniac. Do you never read anything I post? But I'm calling out everybody here (except maybe cayvie and ftl). Along with one of my votes on O, I put out an essay on watno. And why he's scummy. And there was only one response at all. ftl asked me
Shraeye, did you mean to vote Watno in your post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108623#msg108623 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108623#msg108623) ? Because you voted O and then posted a case against Watno, unless I'm misreading you. So I'm confused, was that post supposed to justify your O vote somehow, or is your O case that you spend two lines on still stronger than your Watno case?
So the only discussion that generated at all was somebody asking if I was serious about voting for O. Nothing about watno. Not a thing. (watno did defend himself, I'll get there next) So here it is again so people can finally firetruckin' read it.
...
Second, yuma's analysis reminded me that I wanted to talk about watno. Yuma's analysis seems to point out some contradictions. Like first he doesn't see me as scummy then does. So I wanted to know what changed. watno explained himself by saying I was acti-lurking. But yuma's summary of him talking heavily about acti-lurking makes me feel super suspicious. Why are you voting shraeye for doing something that you are also doing? I decided to go look into his posts and come up with my own interpretation. Here is that effort
Post #250 watno says that he's played Mafia before (in German)
#262 possibly real suspicion, possible joke that Morgrim needs help to "play scum."
#326 describe's glooble's "no quantifiable reason yet" vote on shraeye as possibly sheeping; decides that I'm nitpicky but not scum
#328 corrects yuma's misinterpretation of ehunts one-per-day statement
#373 This will be major point A
#377 Says that actively lurking is more scummy than regular lurking
#379 clarifies previous post by saying what acti-lurking is
#608 long time between posts; This is major point B
Major point A
Refuses to see content in my posts.
When a quick wagon formed on my sarcasm, that was understandable. But I was waiting for the steam to pick up in a different way. What I mean is, the people who voted me because they thought they caught a "scummy scumslip" just hadn't yet arrived in their minds to the punchline of the joke. But still, that was a large portion of people and some disagreed with that. So I had a large wagon, but also had plenty of people who explicitly weren't willing to vote for me based on sarcasm. If I were scum watching that happen, I would look for an opportunity to jump on, add a vote, BUT DO IT FOR A DIFFERENT REASON. So it adds strength to the wagon not only in terms of another vote, but also so that people who didn't want to vote based onsarcasm now had the opportunity to vote for another reason. watno fit this description.
vote shraeye
I guess this is a good example of acti-lurking. We shouldn't discuss about what words to use, but find scum. If you didn't get what ashersky wanted to say, why not just ask?
Its not completely clear what he means by this, so I looked at the last few posts I made. In #373 right before that I made a 3 paragraph argument seeing what I would do if I were axxle with the double vote. That feels like actual content to me and to say that I was "only posting stuff that's not relevant to the game" (that's your definition of acti-lurking from #379) is as false of an assessment as you could make. The post I made before #373 was #369. That has "point number A" that also speculates about double-vote "point number B" that was a defense of myself describing the situation as it developed from my perspective (sorry, is defending oneself acti-lurking? because that also feels to me like content relevant to the game) "point number B and a half" is me talking about my increased levels of sarcasm and answering cayvie's post. None of those seem like I'm posting stuff not relevant to the game, especially when I've been pushed by people to explain myself (cayvie, morgrim, etc). In the post before #369, (disregarding the +1 for a good joke) I gave everyone my post totals, as this helps us see who's being active, and I thought my numbers were a better picture of that then Insomniac's.
There is no way that these are content-less posts irrelevant to the game, so for you to say I'm actilurking and try to paint me with that brush feels like you're simply looking for another reason for the wagon on me to keep growing. A very scummy push.
Major point B
Trying simply to shoot everyone down instead of actually scumhunting.
He goes after Voltaire for "knowing" that O is lurking intentionally, continues his false argument that all I'm doing is talking about words, jumps on TheMunch for trying to keep posts tidy by waiting for ehunt to finish his 7-point multi-post before TheMunch answered ehunt's question to him. Then he jumps on Frisk for policy voting TheMunch and then not unvoting, FoS's the entire yuma wagon for not realizing yuma's mistake was honest, pokes Morgrim for being late to understand that shray is sarcastic, questions how Voltgloss "knows" there's scum on yumas wagon, chides and votes for the lurkers, then winks at sarcastic joth.
Wowie zowie. You just shot down 7 people/factions. Actually 5 people, 1 entire wagon, and a pair of lurkers. I'm all for pointing out consistencies, but the problem here is you point out so many and all so weakly, that you are pointing the smallest of "fingers of suspicion" in every direction instead of focusing your attention and effort on actually finding scum. I suppose the strategy is vocally suspect everyone just a bit, so that nobody's feathers get ruffled, then point out on day 2 that you were right, trying to gain town cred. To me, this is much more suspicious than a lot of things I've seen going on so far. Seriously, you found all of these things suspicious and off, but none of them were worth a more in depth look at the offending parties?
Here is watno's response
Sry for not posting much, I had less time in the last couple of days then expected. It will probably get better tomorrow.
@Voltgloss:
I was hoping more scum would pile on before people started seriously questioning this wagon, but getting at least one scum to join (and I agree with yuma that probably at least one did) is worth something to talk about today.
What I was trying to say regarding this is that I find it a bit strange that you base your thoughts on assumption there's no real evidence for. I think it might be possible, that you in fact know there was scum on that wagon, but had to justify it because you couldn't admit you do.
Watno: you said the wagon on me looked scummy? is there a player in particular who jumps out at you?
Because it seemed kinda farfetched to me that you were intentionally fishing. Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye and Insomniac jump out to me a bit more, since they only voted after they were able to see that others were willing to believe it was intentional fishing.
@shraeye: In fact, i think posts #369 was pretty acti-lurky. Speculating about double votes and posting a wall of text about sarcasm don't really contribute to us getting a read on you. Same for posting a list of post numbers. Starting a discussion about wording doesn't get us further either. It looks like youre trying to get us to think you were saying a lot, while in fact, you aren't.
I don't see your problem with my post #608. If people post something i think might be scummy, i point it out and see if they can explain to me why they did. Since there's not a single person I'm convinced is scum yet, I can't go after them excessively.
I agree with Eevee that Grujah seems to be contributing little even in the few posts he makes.
vote: Captain Frisk for still having a vote on TheMunch "so he notices he mustn't edit posts".
Also, since quite a few people are saying differently, I want to point out that Robz didn't say alignments were random. What he said was that it wouldn't be obvious and some people's alignments would be random.
So he talks again about one of my posts #369, in which I defended myself, had to finally explain sarcasm to the slower members of our audience, and speculated about the double vote. How is me defending myself not helping you get a read on me? I think plenty of people have a read on me, one way or another. You keep saying that defending myself and speculating on the setup of the game are in no way useful. Stop deluding yourself, these are integral parts of mafia.
Here is my problem with post #608 so far. You posted thin arguments on tons of people, and only yuma has responded to you. I know in the quote I pulled from you above you talk to voltgloss again, but the thing you are responding to in #744 (that's the post I pulled above) you are responding to something that voltgloss said before you accused him in #608. What I want to see rather than this laundry list of small mistakes, is for you to commit to sorting them out. Or anything out. Follow up those small pokes you made, don't let people get by without answering them, demand answers until you are satisfied. In short, be a good town player. While typing this yuma slipped in #767 above, which is great. This is what you need to do; latch onto your questions and never let them go unanswered. Don't just machine-gun suspicion all around and see what sticks. the machine-gun suspicion play is super-scummy.
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I agree that Grujah really stands out for not posting much. Ditto for Axxle and ibgtennis. Glad to see O participating more now. I'm not sure any of the votes on him are warranted at the moment. I'm actually curious to hear what shraeye thinks of O now, since he made a point to vote for O in every damn post.
Cuzz I'm going to get to this, probably later tonight; I'm running late for a tennis match right now.
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@yuma
I honestly have been skimming most of the early day and missed your question. Don't have a strong reaction to your case. Idevice posting now.
As for the munch - no, I don't really want it, but why unvote? Just more record keeping for robz - and as his double scum buddy - I have his back in this game.
Time permitting, I will re read tonight and mega post.
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Yuma, I don't claim jester every game. See: MX (town) MVIII (scum)
because after awhile jokes get old
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@Shraeye - I read your post, I wanted to know what CAYVIE's reasoning was.
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note that it's modconfirmed on page one that there's no jester in the game. otherwise it just makes so much sense.
conspiracy theory: a cult of jesters: clown cult. they all look sort of like chucky from the horror movies.
has anyone ever played with cults before? what do you do about them? how do they behave differently from ordinary town/mafia?
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There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
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has anyone ever played with cults before? what do you do about them? how do they behave differently from ordinary town/mafia?
1. yes
2. terminate with extreme prejudice
3. if they live through Day 1 they usually win
I wish I were joking.
There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
I guess we learned not to do it again.
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has anyone ever played with cults before? what do you do about them? how do they behave differently from ordinary town/mafia?
1. yes
2. terminate with extreme prejudice
3. if they live through Day 1 they usually win
I wish I were joking.
There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
I guess we learned not to do it again.
i mean, it's either mod-confirmed that there's a cult or eevee just pulled the craziest gambit of all time.
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There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
I didn't 'accidently' do anything. I was certain on 3 scum, was suspicious of another, and was half-right on the last. The only scum I didn't know was Insomniac. He read trustworthy to me.
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There was a cult in RMMI. This was not a regular cult, because the recruits did not share a wincon with the cult leader. Additionally, there were multiple ways in which the cult could be disbanded, including if the cult leader managed to win.
There was a cult in RMM2. This was not a regular cult, because the cult leader had a night kill and all the recruits kept their original powers. As should be expected, they completely dominated the game.
A regular cult is bad news. It would be closer to RMM2 than RMMI. Even without a night kill and other powers, cults will grow out of control. I expect that there will be a twist to the cult, if it exists, or else this game will be very much Bastard.
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I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.
fos at jotheonah over this. in MVI there was, mid day one, a stern warning from moderator O that we weren't to analyze role PMs. shortly thereafter, jo realized he could implicate galzria because galzria had unwittingly implied that galzria wasn't a vanilla townie because galzria had asserted that a vanilla townie's role pm would be boring. jo was a vanilla townie in that game, but he knew that the role PMs included flavor text "names" e.g. jo was a peddler in that game. so jo outed his role title of peddler and mentioned that there was flavor text to argue that galzria wasn't town (in fact it turns out that galz wasn't scum that game but had a power role). i think there was some rules-related ruckus about this, but in the end jo wasn't modkilled.
the point: i think it's weird that jo is angry at galzria for skating on the boundaries of the rules in a way that helps town (separately, i don't think galzria is skating on the boundaries of the rules - outside sources are inevitable in a forum setting) when jo had no problem doing this as a townie.
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(clarification: I don't think it's scummy to call out questionable behavior (questionable from a rules/ethics perspective) that helps town. I just think it's weird that jo in particular is doing it. Separately, I don't think either of these incidents are cheating, although I did worry that jo was going to get modkilled in MVI (worry because he was obvtown and I wanted to send him a letter that evening, which was my role in that game).)
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I felt quite bad about that incident and have vowed to avoid similar things in the future. I got excited about having caught what I thought was a scumslip and posted without thoroughly checking the rules.
I'm sorry about being pissy at Galz earlier today. I really would be sad if he ragequit forum mafia forever. But also, I need to stay off forum mafia when I'm in an IRL bad mood, I would advise that for anyone.
In other news...
Eevee, I think someone asked before, but it's important we know (you have said you're bad at reading your PM in the past): Is there any possible explanation other than a cult for your role PM? Does it specifically refer to a cult or to an anti-town faction that can recruit? Recall when I said I was sure we had werewolves and it turned out we were being trolled in BMMM - it seems like any game Robz was in is fair game for Robz's setup.
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and like myself neither of you will follow that rule.
ibgtennis - i forgot to answer your post voting for me (you're suspicious that I flip-flopped on my one-a-day strategy and am posting more). Conveniently, Insomniac breadcrumbed my answer for me before the game even started (I'm quoting him above): I have no self-control and can't stay away from mafia. If you don't believe me, read MVI where about fifty times I say "I have to do work and am not coming back for six hours" and then come back in like two. Or read MIX as I'm dying where I think I say at least twice "this will be my very last post because I have to go, you guys vote for O omg omg" and end up posting fifty times more.
the other argument, and my only evidence here is my own experience but I suspect this really applies to everyone: it's not scummy to want to appear town. Of course scum want to appear town, but town also wants to appear town. Everyone wants to appear town. Town PRs may want to appear slightly less town, but they still don't want to appear like scum and get daykilled (or be forced to expose their PRs). Now if someone is trying too hard to appear town and seems unnatural, that's a scumtell. But changing behavior when others tell you your behavior is coming across as scummy I don't think is a scumtell.
For instance, in MVIII, toward the beginning of day three, I was posting too much, short phone-posts and yuma was like "dude, you seem like scum. stop posting these short phone-posts" in so many words. And so I did. And sure enough, the ehunt-wagon died. Yuma was town and so was I. He was just giving me a heads up. Likewise, a bunch of folks here were like, yo, don't tell me to post one-a-day, and also, you need to be around to answer questions and stuff. And so I did.
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I felt quite bad about that incident and have vowed to avoid similar things in the future. I got excited about having caught what I thought was a scumslip and posted without thoroughly checking the rules.
I'm sorry about being pissy at Galz earlier today. I really would be sad if he ragequit forum mafia forever. But also, I need to stay off forum mafia when I'm in an IRL bad mood, I would advise that for anyone.
In other news...
Eevee, I think someone asked before, but it's important we know (you have said you're bad at reading your PM in the past): Is there any possible explanation other than a cult for your role PM? Does it specifically refer to a cult or to an anti-town faction that can recruit? Recall when I said I was sure we had werewolves and it turned out we were being trolled in BMMM - it seems like any game Robz was in is fair game for Robz's setup.
tangent in spoilers as it's not relevant to this game tl;dr I did not mean to shame you over the incident, and I don't think you should feel bad. I just meant to say it's a change in behavior for you.
It is never clear to me how much of a role PM you can legally talk about. For example, if you're a doctor, everyone says "I'm a doctor!" Is that the same as quoting your role PM? Of course not, but you're quoting the title, which is what you did in MVI. So I didn't think at the time that you were cheating, just possibly summoning the wrath of O (which I really really did not want, from a strategic perspective, since you were my best letter target, especially as we had sort of been buddying up D1 that game anyway).
As it turns out, your actions only made it worse for town, not better (although you couldn't have known this). In retrospect, I (and others) should have realized that Galz was probably town because if he were scum then O should have modkilled you. If we had done this, I think something unfair would have occurred.
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Hi. There was a huge MTG/AGOT playfest so I was inactive. Also will be till end of the week as I got a tempjob at beerfest.
Read some of what I missed, scimmed most.
What struck me as odd was cayvie proclaiming that for some game reason he will be laying low on votes, than votes on yuma in the next posts, and than votes and unvotes O in next few.
Pretty careless for somebody who "won't be joining wagons", esp as those were starting to grow at the time.
Ashersky also struck a weird nerve of being wagon-jumpy-friendly, but I admit I scimmed and I will have to recheck this, I'm going to sleep now.
@Gloob - I voted cuz you just seemed standard-issue scumGlob that I've met in MIV. Your play here was exact mirror from MIV, and similar to MVI.
Bad thing is I don't have a townGloob to comare with.
Blah. Unvote
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Actually, why not:
vote: cayvie
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Presumably, Robz has balanced his cult if he's put one in. He's played in enough games, including ones with cults, to avoid any clearly crazy balance issues, though there might be more subtle balance issues. A cult is possible, if you look at his opening post he does mention "Cult" as a possibility when listing all the possible roles.
Or maybe he's just trolling Eevee, after Eevee turned out to be a seer in a game with no werewolves in the BMMMMMMMMMMM :)
...also, everyone seems to have skipped over shraeye's Watno case again. Shraeye, maybe because you don't have a vote on it? The case somehow feels like it's not very serious if even you yourself don't find it convincing enough to justify placing a vote. Especially since the end of your last post, again, reads not like "I think Watno is scum" but as "I think Watno's town but not doing a very good job, here's some pointers for how to play better!"
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Actually, why not:
vote: cayvie
I think your vote is based on a misinterpretation of cayvie's post about her role. I don't want to argue the finer points of this.
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Actually, why not:
vote: cayvie
I think your vote is based on a misinterpretation of cayvie's post about her role. I don't want to argue the finer points of this.
I'm obviously missing something.
unvote
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I felt quite bad about that incident and have vowed to avoid similar things in the future. I got excited about having caught what I thought was a scumslip and posted without thoroughly checking the rules.
I'm sorry about being pissy at Galz earlier today. I really would be sad if he ragequit forum mafia forever. But also, I need to stay off forum mafia when I'm in an IRL bad mood, I would advise that for anyone.
In other news...
Eevee, I think someone asked before, but it's important we know (you have said you're bad at reading your PM in the past): Is there any possible explanation other than a cult for your role PM? Does it specifically refer to a cult or to an anti-town faction that can recruit? Recall when I said I was sure we had werewolves and it turned out we were being trolled in BMMM - it seems like any game Robz was in is fair game for Robz's setup.
tangent in spoilers as it's not relevant to this game tl;dr I did not mean to shame you over the incident, and I don't think you should feel bad. I just meant to say it's a change in behavior for you.
It is never clear to me how much of a role PM you can legally talk about. For example, if you're a doctor, everyone says "I'm a doctor!" Is that the same as quoting your role PM? Of course not, but you're quoting the title, which is what you did in MVI. So I didn't think at the time that you were cheating, just possibly summoning the wrath of O (which I really really did not want, from a strategic perspective, since you were my best letter target, especially as we had sort of been buddying up D1 that game anyway).
As it turns out, your actions only made it worse for town, not better (although you couldn't have known this). In retrospect, I (and others) should have realized that Galz was probably town because if he were scum then O should have modkilled you. If we had done this, I think something unfair would have occurred.
The irony is that is provided more incentive for scum to kill townspeople instead of their own, which is why I modkilled nobody (I thought it would actually work against the town's interests that they attempted what they did). And if scum had played well, maybe it would have..
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This town is never gonna get 13 votes in one place. ;D
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This town is never gonna get 13 votes in one place. ;D
nobody likes my ehunt wagon, the chums.
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This town is never gonna get 13 votes in one place. ;D
nobody likes my ehunt wagon, the chums.
I thought he was somewhat suspicious until this last round of posting by him, specifically his responses to ibgtennis, which read very town to me.
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This town is never gonna get 13 votes in one place. ;D
nobody likes my ehunt wagon, the chums.
I was all about it, but my heart just isn't in it anymore.
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and like myself neither of you will follow that rule.
ibgtennis - i forgot to answer your post voting for me (you're suspicious that I flip-flopped on my one-a-day strategy and am posting more). Conveniently, Insomniac breadcrumbed my answer for me before the game even started (I'm quoting him above): I have no self-control and can't stay away from mafia. If you don't believe me, read MVI where about fifty times I say "I have to do work and am not coming back for six hours" and then come back in like two. Or read MIX as I'm dying where I think I say at least twice "this will be my very last post because I have to go, you guys vote for O omg omg" and end up posting fifty times more.
the other argument, and my only evidence here is my own experience but I suspect this really applies to everyone: it's not scummy to want to appear town. Of course scum want to appear town, but town also wants to appear town. Everyone wants to appear town. Town PRs may want to appear slightly less town, but they still don't want to appear like scum and get daykilled (or be forced to expose their PRs). Now if someone is trying too hard to appear town and seems unnatural, that's a scumtell. But changing behavior when others tell you your behavior is coming across as scummy I don't think is a scumtell.
For instance, in MVIII, toward the beginning of day three, I was posting too much, short phone-posts and yuma was like "dude, you seem like scum. stop posting these short phone-posts" in so many words. And so I did. And sure enough, the ehunt-wagon died. Yuma was town and so was I. He was just giving me a heads up. Likewise, a bunch of folks here were like, yo, don't tell me to post one-a-day, and also, you need to be around to answer questions and stuff. And so I did.
All this makes sense of course. Obviously people want to appear town. It was just trajectory in which you came to be at the heavy-posting stage you are. And maybe you are addicted to this...I'll have to take your word for it. I wasn't around for the old games and it's tough for me to relate as I obviously don't post as much as you. So, i'll over an Unvote
Ultimately, I voted you out of convenience. I can't stress enough how much I feel that this RVS is b.s.. Maybe it's because I'm just a newbie, but I find it just about impossible to get a legitimate, evidence-base scum-claim when nothing has happened, especially given that I struggle to follow conversations about previous games and how it might apply here.
guys voting for Axxle, Axxle posted about his V/LA in the V/LA thread. Axxle shouldn't be on the list of lurkers just like Young Nick shouldn't.
Agreed about Axxle. He doesn't read particularly scummy to me, and I would think that revealing a double-vote, intuitively at least, seems more town than scum.
I'll be V/LA this coming weekend. But I'll see what I can do.
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There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
I didn't 'accidently' do anything. I was certain on 3 scum, was suspicious of another, and was half-right on the last. The only scum I didn't know was Insomniac. He read trustworthy to me.
Is it because when pressured I immediately told you I was chancellor?
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There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
I didn't 'accidently' do anything. I was certain on 3 scum, was suspicious of another, and was half-right on the last. The only scum I didn't know was Insomniac. He read trustworthy to me.
Is it because when pressured I immediately told you I was chancellor?
It's because you never read scummy to me. Seriously, outside of RMM-I and BM-V, have I ever seen you as scum?
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There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
I didn't 'accidently' do anything. I was certain on 3 scum, was suspicious of another, and was half-right on the last. The only scum I didn't know was Insomniac. He read trustworthy to me.
Is it because when pressured I immediately told you I was chancellor?
It's because you never read scummy to me. Seriously, outside of RMM-I and BM-V, have I ever seen you as scum?
MIX
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There was a cult in Role Madness 1. Galz was the leader and accidentally gobbled up all of the scum. I don't know what we learned from it.
I didn't 'accidently' do anything. I was certain on 3 scum, was suspicious of another, and was half-right on the last. The only scum I didn't know was Insomniac. He read trustworthy to me.
Is it because when pressured I immediately told you I was chancellor?
It's because you never read scummy to me. Seriously, outside of RMM-I and BM-V, have I ever seen you as scum?
MIX
Yeah, but you died N1 there as usual...
Then again, as scum, I gotta give you props on that. But yeah, you never read scummy to me.
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Vote Count 1.13
shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (2) -- O, Jotheonah
O (2) -- shraeye, TheMunch
Glooble (1) -- yuma
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (3) -- Glooble, Eevee, Morgrim7
yuma (1) -- Voltaire
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
cayvie (1) -- ftl
Axxle (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Watno
Not Voting (9) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Voltgloss, Cuzz, Dsell, Galzria, ashersky, Grujah, ibgtennis
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
CLARIFICATION: Someone raised the issue of how much mod-supplied information a player is allowed to reveal. The answer is of course all of it, you just can't quote your PM directly. You may explain the contents of your role PM so long as you do not COPY them. If you are unclear of what counts as copying, consider sending me a PM containing the exact post you wish to make. I am happy to tell you whether it is permissible to post it. This is the safest thing to do; I will mod-kill rules violators without remorse, but am happy to answer questions on that matter or any other if asked in PM form.
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Can someone do their best to sum up the Shraeye wagon? It's damn tough going through 32 pages of posts and quotes and arriving at a coherent place.
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So, hey guys. I dont know if you know this but there are people in this game (me) who haven't participated in other games (still me) and for those people (me again) it can be very difficult to see why those old games affect this one. One main reason: I give zero shits how people played in other games. People can change the way they play. If I had played in previous games, I would exploit all of you by just playing in the way that you guys think I do as town, since apparently thats all I need to do to convince you people that I are town. Seriously guys, you can be better than this. There is plenty to talk about. So lets do that.
To get the ball rolling, I did an entire reread. Surprise surprise, I still find eHunt and Yuma pretty scummy. Vote: O "But wait!" you say, "O is neither eHunt or Yuma." You would all be correct. O is in fact not ehunt and Yuma but I really find him to be a terrible player. I have called him out on it before but I am tired of his holier-than-thou attitude. If you are above contributing to this game, dont play it, and I'll help you with that regard. Vote: O (Protip: we're not friends).
But on subject: ehunt and Yuma. They were the 2 transgressors of what I believe to be my biggest pet peeve: posting something that too strongly tries to implicate yourself as town. eHunt did it first and Yuma second. I commented on both of them when it happened and no one really seemed to care:
If I just blindly type things and one of them gets misperceived as a scumslip, that's really bad for town.
I dont like that you use the word "misperceived." Feels like you are trying too hard to plant that you are town so that when you make a scumslip it would be a mistake to act on it. Subtle, but I dont like it.
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip. I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line. I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched. You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss. I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing. It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy. You get my Vote: Yuma.
This coupled with what I find to be just sloppy play from both of them, namely very hollow arguments and not-so-subtle topic changes (I dont have direct evidence of these, just the impression I got), makes me really want to keep an eye on them.
Secondly, there has been a lot thats said that has gotten no attention because of Eevee's bombdrop of the cult knowledge. Thats all well and good but Shraeye makes a solid post on watno (who I would agree did not give me the towniest of reads on my reread). Its content-filled post like these that need to be addressed and I am super suspicious of everyone that is participating but not actually addressing content posts and the individuals who those posts call into question (I'm still not letting lurkers off the hook). I'll say it again: I do not consider old games to ever be relevent, throwing around M followed by some roman numeral doesn't make you cool; It makes you narrow minded in the sense that you cant see a world where any one is ever capable of changing the way they act and think. You are embarrassing yourselves and you can do better.
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Can someone do their best to sum up the Shraeye wagon? It's damn tough going through 32 pages of posts and quotes and arriving at a coherent place.
No problem. First I did stuff. Then idiots decided to act idiotic, so they voted for me. Then enough people pointed out that they were idiotic that those voters eventually backed off. Because nobody likes looking like an idiot. Except watno. He's content to still claim I've contributed no content yet. Despite the content that I've contributed. Apparently he loves looking like an idiot.
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*facepalms at the guy who says to ignore other games in the game where the flavor is based on people's metas from previous games*
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sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
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as mafia*
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*facepalms at the guy who says to ignore other games in the game where the flavor is based on people's metas from previous games*
True. But that flavor is coming from Robz. I see lots of people talk about their specific participation in games or some back-patting-post-gamey kind of chat. If you really want to use the flavor as an argument, you'd have to bring to the table how Robz sees these people. There might be very broad archetypes that people are known for, but that doesn't mean quoting specific old games. But thats not even whats happening. People throw around those old games as if they have encyclopedic knowledge of what transpired in those games. From what I've seen of THIS game, no one is so perfect and all knowing and keeping every single detail of THIS game straight to even hint at indicating that they could reference M-followed-by-roman-numerals and be flawless with their analysis. Because the roles may or may not be based on peoples archetypes, saying "X isn't play like X played when he played town." THAT has no baring. What does have baring is what Shraeye discussed about Axxle's justification for him being the double poster based on previous games. THAT is flavor, not X isn't playing like X.
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sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
I'm not calling you a terrible mafia player; I'm calling you a terrible human being. Get off your high horse. You are not infallible. Your winrate doesn't make you more or less town.
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I agree that Grujah really stands out for not posting much. Ditto for Axxle and ibgtennis. Glad to see O participating more now. I'm not sure any of the votes on him are warranted at the moment. I'm actually curious to hear what shraeye thinks of O now, since he made a point to vote for O in every damn post.
I still think O is not "participating enough." He's finally started posting, but my main issue with him was his unwillingness to take positions on arguments (he's done this a bit now, and I've noticed) and to actually provide explanations and arguments (I haven't seen so much regarding this). O is a really good mafia player, so I really want to hear his explanations on things.
Until he starts putting up some serious content, and I've seen him do it before (even on day 1), I will classify him as still "lurking". This is because in addition to being unhelpful in adding information about the alignment of other players, he is protecting himself from having his alignment discovered by anybody after a lynch. This information is key, it is all town has to try to win the game against an informed mafia, and this cult that is apparently popping up.
sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
Like I said, you are very good at mafia, and good at winning as scum. If you're town here I want you to contribute to my win as well. If you're scum, I want to prevent you from increasing that win-rate. You style of play is super O-helping, but not super-town unless you happen to be town. It's possible that you're town. But it's also possible that you aren't town.
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sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
I'm not calling you a terrible mafia player; I'm calling you a terrible human being. Get off your high horse. You are not infallible. Your winrate doesn't make you more or less town.
Man, quit being a jerk. He's actually a really solid mafia player and how he plays day one of a game of forum mafia really, really has no bearing on what kind of person he is.
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sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
I'm not calling you a terrible mafia player; I'm calling you a terrible human being. Get off your high horse. You are not infallible. Your winrate doesn't make you more or less town.
I fixed this up for him, so that people don't make knee-jerk reactions based on his vitriol. He makes an incredibly valid point.
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@TheMunch
I understand listening us talking about our previous games can be frustrating, but you are probably pretty alone with that opinion. Previous games are very important, and faking certain behavior is harder than you think. Also keep it cool, O is okay. :) No need to get personal, just a game!
I don't explicitly know there is a cult. I know there exists a faction that has night talk, and that something* would happen if I got recruited into it.
*I know what this something is, but it's not relevant here.
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sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
I'm not calling you a terrible mafia player; I'm calling you a terrible human being. Get off your high horse. You are not infallible. Your winrate doesn't make you more or less town.
I fixed this up for him, so that people don't make knee-jerk reactions based on his vitriol. He makes an incredibly valid point.
He does? Well, now that you've changed his words.
Pretty sure O was directly responding to TheMunch calling him a "terrible player".
So, hey guys. I dont know if you know this but there are people in this game (me) who haven't participated in other games (still me) and for those people (me again) it can be very difficult to see why those old games affect this one. One main reason: I give zero shits how people played in other games. People can change the way they play.
Please demonstrate!
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Ok, this has taken on a disturbing "newbie vs vet" tone that I don't think is in the interests of fun play.
Message received that the veteran players are being too clubhousey with unnecessary references to past games. Let's try to be a welcoming community.
Also, let's keep the tone civil and the personal attacks to non-existent, if you all don't mind. I learned early on (specific reference omitted) that the game gets a lot less fun if people get RL feelings hurt.
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sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
I'm not calling you a terrible mafia player; I'm calling you a terrible human being. Get off your high horse. You are not infallible. Your winrate doesn't make you more or less town.
I fixed this up for him, so that people don't make knee-jerk reactions based on his vitriol. He makes an incredibly valid point.
He does? Well, now that you've changed his words.
Pretty sure O was directly responding to TheMunch calling him a "terrible player".
So, hey guys. I dont know if you know this but there are people in this game (me) who haven't participated in other games (still me) and for those people (me again) it can be very difficult to see why those old games affect this one. One main reason: I give zero shits how people played in other games. People can change the way they play.
Please demonstrate!
I changed absolutely no words. I crossed out his personal attacks, and highlighted the serious point he made. O has a high-win rate. But that doesn't make him any more or less towny in this game.
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Okay, but nobody was saying it did.
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My winrate does not imply I am more townie in the slightest. Only my town-aligned role PM did that. My winrate implies that somehow, despite pissing off at least 5 people per game, I am not a terrible player.
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And also, shraeye, if you want people to read your posts, maybe you should refrain from being directly hostile to your audience?
Like, who wants to read stuff like
So he talks again about one of my posts #369, in which I defended myself, had to finally explain sarcasm to the slower members of our audience, and speculated about the double vote..
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And also, shraeye, if you want people to read your posts, maybe you should refrain from being directly hostile to your audience?
Like, who wants to read stuff like
So he talks again about one of my posts #369, in which I defended myself, had to finally explain sarcasm to the slower members of our audience, and speculated about the double vote..
I'm going to not bait and provoke hell here and just say that sometimes witty statements aren't as witty on the reread. I personally review carefully all of my jackassery before posting to make sure it is up to my standards in wit (basically if you're going to be mean, which you really really shouldn't, only be mean in jest).
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inb4 someone starts a "Decline of civility in forum mafia" thread. ;)
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FWIW I like your posting style O it always gets people talking.
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sigh, so many times I get yelled at for being a terrible mafia player. Yet I have the second highest winrate for frequent players while having 4 stints of mafia. Must get really lucky.
I'm not calling you a terrible mafia player; I'm calling you a terrible human being. Get off your high horse. You are not infallible. Your winrate doesn't make you more or less town.
Man, quit being a jerk. He's actually a really solid mafia player and how he plays day one of a game of forum mafia really, really has no bearing on what kind of person he is.
TheMunch, I apologize for being too harsh here. I do realize that it must be frustrating to see a lot of people throwing around former games like they're evidence, but that doesn't make those former games invalid. I've been on the same scum team as 4 of these players in the past (Glooble, O, Voltgloss, and Insomniac) and that's definitely helped me learn how they play scum. I've seen other people play as both town and scum, and all of these things help reads.
All that said, I'd rather just keep things civil and if you have a question or a frustration, just voice it. We don't need to take anything out on anyone.
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And also, shraeye, if you want people to read your posts, maybe you should refrain from being directly hostile to your audience?
Like, who wants to read stuff like
So he talks again about one of my posts #369, in which I defended myself, had to finally explain sarcasm to the slower members of our audience, and speculated about the double vote..
Friendly in this game too, cayvie? :P
*facepalms at the guy who says to ignore other games in the game where the flavor is based on people's metas from previous games*
I say again again that my role does not reflect my reputation or my past games, and Robz himself agreed when I talked to him about it. I believe Robz himself said that not everyone would get roles reflecting their reputation and whatever, partially for game balance and partially for WIFOM. Therefore it is an unproductive avenue to keep mulling over reputations and such.
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I say again again that my role does not reflect my reputation or my past games, and Robz himself agreed when I talked to him about it. I believe Robz himself said that not everyone would get roles reflecting their reputation and whatever, partially for game balance and partially for WIFOM. Therefore it is an unproductive avenue to keep mulling over reputations and such.
You are one example. Insisting that viewpoint is actually borderline rolefishing, because the the only way anyone can refute that theory is by revealing their role actually does match their perceived playstyle. I'm not saying mine does, but I'm definitely saying I'm under the impression that these speculations can indeed be productive. Maybe not yet here on day 1 however, I'll give you that.
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I say again again that my role does not reflect my reputation or my past games, and Robz himself agreed when I talked to him about it. I believe Robz himself said that not everyone would get roles reflecting their reputation and whatever, partially for game balance and partially for WIFOM. Therefore it is an unproductive avenue to keep mulling over reputations and such.
You are one example. Insisting that viewpoint is actually borderline rolefishing, because the the only way anyone can refute that theory is by revealing their role actually does match their perceived playstyle. I'm not saying mine does, but I'm definitely saying I'm under the impression that these speculations can indeed be productive. Maybe not yet here on day 1 however, I'll give you that.
Are you joking? Continuing speculation on this front is FAR MORE rolefishy. My viewpoint is modconfirmed in the OP.
This should not be construed to mean that the roles and alignments will be obvious to people who have read other games. They will be subtly based on aspects of players personalities. (For example, the following line of thinking will not work in this game: "Jotheonah has twice been the Serial Killer, so he's probably the Serial Killer in this game.") Furthermore, some roles and alignments WILL be determined randomly.
Play this like a regular game.
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Oh well, agree to disagree I guess. I understand your viewpoint, but you have not convinced me and I won't stop thinking about these things. I can not post my thoughts for now though, no problem. I think the biggest benefit of these analyses would be in situation where he have to evaluate individual players role claim or choose between two players in LyLo. Obviously Robz can't make every role according to previous games, because not everyone has played here before and it would make the game too easy to break.
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Can someone do their best to sum up the Shraeye wagon? It's damn tough going through 32 pages of posts and quotes and arriving at a coherent place.
No problem. First I did stuff. Then idiots decided to act idiotic, so they voted for me. Then enough people pointed out that they were idiotic that those voters eventually backed off. Because nobody likes looking like an idiot. Except watno. He's content to still claim I've contributed no content yet. Despite the content that I've contributed. Apparently he loves looking like an idiot.
I didn't say you didn't contribute content yet, I'm saying some of your posts try to look like they were conveying more content than they actually are. Also, can you stop getting personal please? Thank you.
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Yeah some folks have already said things along these lines, but everyone should take a second and reread the Golden Rule on page 1. This is a fun game first and foremost.
And Munch, being quite new myself I understand it's frustrating as a new player to see lots of references you weren't around for, but it is helpful for those who were there, and hopefully you won't think it detracts too much from your experience. You can even ask for references and go read parts of these games yourself. And I echo those who have pointed out that changing playstyle is not so easy for everyone. (Also, please don't think the first paragraph is directed only at you)
Now, let's all come together and get back to trying to murder the filthy, murderous scum.
(Oh, and +lots for this:
inb4 someone starts a "Decline of civility in forum mafia" thread. ;)
)
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Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.
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Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.
Vote: Yuma for too much sensibility! Unvote.
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I want to start off by apologizing for my behavior last night. I lost my cool and it was uncalled for. That being said I've awoke with a cooler head on my shoulders and am ready to move forward if you guys are. While there were some posts just as reactionary as mine, I was pleased with the tone the thread moved to, despite my hostility. I particularly appreciate the comment from jotheonah; I was finding myself getting frustrated by the campiness and some recognition from a member of the community was comforting. I wanted to participate in the game to my fullest but I found myself unable to participate from lack of knowledge with the threat of being called the stigmatized "lurker" hanging over my shoulders. After pages of this, it appears I felt I had no other choice. I also apologize to O; personal attacks were uncalled for. I feel like I have misinterpretted your responses to accusations of lurking and I would love to see you prove me wrong about the self-rightous assessment of you. You have already begun to prove me wrong and all it took was a bit of honest participation. I look forward to hearing your insight, as long as you are willing to give it.
That being said, I can concede that actions in previous games are not completely without value. Yet, looking forward, I have one humble request. Keep in mind that I am a participant in this game and I am quite new. I am not going to say that you are not allowed to develop feelings and intuitions based on the way that you know others to have played, but I would propose that there are real arguments to be formed based soley on the actions of individuals in this game alone. While hunches and intuition might allow you to focus your efforts while scumhunting, ultimately it will be hard evidence and contradictions that will pull the trigger.
I just hope we can put this incident behind us, while gaining some insight as to how an outsider might view the community (albiet very poorly expressed). I would hate to see myself day 1 lynched over at worst misunderstanding. Vote: O
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That being said, I can concede that actions in previous games are not completely without value. Yet, looking forward, I have one humble request. Keep in mind that I am a participant in this game and I am quite new. I am not going to say that you are not allowed to develop feelings and intuitions based on the way that you know others to have played, but I would propose that there are real arguments to be formed based soley on the actions of individuals in this game alone. While hunches and intuition might allow you to focus your efforts while scumhunting, ultimately it will be hard evidence and contradictions that will pull the trigger.
I remember being really annoyed by this when I was new, playing MVI (I had read MIV carefully and was a sub in MV simultaneously with MVI, but did not know the other games). But now that I know a bunch of folks' playstyles, it's very hard not to reference past events. There's just not a lot to talk about on day one, so it's tempting to focus on the concrete.
That said, I think I got pretty good reads in that game just by completely ignoring most of the talk about past games. The one exception is that I was sure Morgrim was scum on day one in that game even though everyone was telling me that no, he's just crazy. That was valuable information that only playing with him could have given.
<---answers post about how it's annoying to reference past games by referencing a past game
<---realizes this but posts anyway.
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Cool, So with that taken care of, how do we actually proceed. If been thinking about this since the beginning of the game, but how does a group this group actually complete a vote on day 1. 13 is such a large number and the most wagony of wagons could only get up to 6 or 7. How do you turn those kinds of positions into one where we can decide to actually make a lynch, being convinced that town or not an individuals death is one where a great deal of information is to be gained? I would like to see proposals for how this is to be accomplished. The deadline is approaching. That is, unless a day 1 nolynch is actually a good thing?
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Cool, So with that taken care of, how do we actually proceed. I've been thinking about this since the beginning of the game, but how does a group this large actually complete a vote on day 1. 13 is such a large number and the most wagony of wagons could only get up to 6 or 7. How do you turn those kinds of positions into one where we can decide to actually make a lynch, being convinced that, town or not, an individuals death is one where a great deal of information is to be gained? I would like to see proposals for how this is to be accomplished. The deadline is approaching. That is, unless a day 1 nolynch is actually a good thing?
Ugh typos
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Do shraeye and TheMunch have some sort of post restriction where they have to vote for O even if they're already voting for O, or something? It's very strange and keeps happening.
I'm never going to catch up on my re-read if this thread keeps generating pages at the same pace I can go through old ones.
I'm starting to see the case against Watno, by the way, as long as we're pursuing the "who isn't helping that much" line of thought.
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Can someone do their best to sum up the Shraeye wagon? It's damn tough going through 32 pages of posts and quotes and arriving at a coherent place.
No problem. First I did stuff. Then idiots decided to act idiotic, so they voted for me. Then enough people pointed out that they were idiotic that those voters eventually backed off. Because nobody likes looking like an idiot. Except watno. He's content to still claim I've contributed no content yet. Despite the content that I've contributed. Apparently he loves looking like an idiot.
I didn't say you didn't contribute content yet, I'm saying some of your posts try to look like they were conveying more content than they actually are. Also, can you stop getting personal please? Thank you.
Ok, then we're cool about my Major point A from #655. But I still have strong concern over Major point B.
Major point B
Trying simply to shoot everyone down instead of actually scumhunting.
He goes after Voltaire for "knowing" that O is lurking intentionally, continues his false argument that all I'm doing is talking about words, jumps on TheMunch for trying to keep posts tidy by waiting for ehunt to finish his 7-point multi-post before TheMunch answered ehunt's question to him. Then he jumps on Frisk for policy voting TheMunch and then not unvoting, FoS's the entire yuma wagon for not realizing yuma's mistake was honest, pokes Morgrim for being late to understand that shray is sarcastic, questions how Voltgloss "knows" there's scum on yumas wagon, chides and votes for the lurkers, then winks at sarcastic joth.
Wowie zowie. You just shot down 7 people/factions. Actually 5 people, 1 entire wagon, and a pair of lurkers. I'm all for pointing out consistencies, but the problem here is you point out so many and all so weakly, that you are pointing the smallest of "fingers of suspicion" in every direction instead of focusing your attention and effort on actually finding scum. I suppose the strategy is vocally suspect everyone just a bit, so that nobody's feathers get ruffled, then point out on day 2 that you were right, trying to gain town cred. To me, this is much more suspicious than a lot of things I've seen going on so far. Seriously, you found all of these things suspicious and off, but none of them were worth a more in depth look at the offending parties?
I don't see your problem with my post #608. If people post something i think might be scummy, i point it out and see if they can explain to me why they did. Since there's not a single person I'm convinced is scum yet, I can't go after them excessively.
Here is my problem with post #608 so far. You posted thin arguments on tons of people, and only yuma has responded to you...What I want to see rather than this laundry list of small mistakes, is for you to commit to sorting them out. Or anything out. Follow up those small pokes you made, don't let people get by without answering them, demand answers until you are satisfied. In short, be a good town player. While typing this yuma slipped in #767 above, which is great. This is what you need to do; latch onto your questions and never let them go unanswered. Don't just machine-gun suspicion all around and see what sticks. the machine-gun suspicion play is super-scummy.
I know I've explained this twice, but I was working it out in my head as I was falling asleep yesterday, and I've got a clearer way to say it I hope. Machine-gunning thin arguments around and seeing what people agree with and pick up on seems to either be a solid scum-play or poor town-play. If you're scum, then you can just post lots of small errors from town-members, see what people agree with, and then drive home a mis-lynch. If you're town, a post with this many people in it could hit scum, but is also bound to sling suspicion at town member. Scum can start agreeing with your argument against that poor town player, and push you into driving home a mislynch.
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Cool, So with that taken care of, how do we actually proceed. If been thinking about this since the beginning of the game, but how does a group this group actually complete a vote on day 1. 13 is such a large number and the most wagony of wagons could only get up to 6 or 7. How do you turn those kinds of positions into one where we can decide to actually make a lynch, being convinced that town or not an individuals death is one where a great deal of information is to be gained? I would like to see proposals for how this is to be accomplished. The deadline is approaching. That is, unless a day 1 nolynch is actually a good thing?
This is a major problem and will likely continue to be. The issue is that any wagon that gets above size X will inevitably become a "scummy looking wagon" - weather this notion is proposed by a defending scummate, a scum trying to buy towncred if the wagoned player ever flips town, or by townies who either read the wagoned player differently or just think no wagon can get large without scum help - all of those are possible. Breaking that threshold to lynch scum is incredibly difficult. While we don't know the numbers here, I've pointed out before that in a standard, 9 player game, to lynch scum D1 takes 5 of 7 town votes, or about 71%. The larger the number needed grows (even if the % stays the same), the harder it will naturally be. This is WHY we're almost certain to lynch town D1.
That said, it's even harder for town to lynch town with no scum help. In the 9 player scenario, it would take 5 of 6 town votes to do. So while it's highly likely we'll hit town regardless, the true value comes in splitting the field. This is WHY D1 is so tough. We can talk until we're blue (and we will!), but without flips nothing is ever going to be known and a consensus is ridiculously hard to come by. **In most past games** D1 has gone to deadline and we've scrambled to lynch whoever appeared most scummy throughout D1 (**M-VII was the exception, when we no-lynched. However the three running wagons at deadline were ALL against town**).
You've asked for ideas about how to break this and move forward - but I don't know what to tell you. My suggestion is that the town picks someone who has appeared scummy at some point to most of us and run with it. Will they likely flip town? Yes. But at least we have something to analyze D2. "Scumhunting" and "Culthunting" will be largely fruitless D1. But it's WHY it's so important that we make people take stands on issues of scumminess that do pop up. Because after D1 that's how we start arranging people and pairs in our lists of scumminess.
All of the above, of course, is amplified even more by possible investigative results from PR's that come out... Again, after D1. This is why people treat D1 as RVS. In some ways the game doesn't start until D2.
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Do shraeye and TheMunch have some sort of post restriction where they have to vote for O even if they're already voting for O, or something? It's very strange and keeps happening.
I'm never going to catch up on my re-read if this thread keeps generating pages at the same pace I can go through old ones.
I'm starting to see the case against Watno, by the way, as long as we're pursuing the "who isn't helping that much" line of thought.
I can't answer for TheMunch, maybe he was trying to copycat. But I am doing it to drive home the point, clearly it worked.
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Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.
I sincerely apologize if I am the cause of the decrease in fun for you. And for other people. This is not my intention at all. I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, and have meant all my posts in earnest, or in good fun, or a mix of both. No actual anger has driven any of these posts. I hope we can continue to enjoy this game together.
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Vote Count 1.13
shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (2) -- O, Jotheonah
O (2) -- shraeye, TheMunch
Glooble (1) -- yuma
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (3) -- Glooble, Eevee, Morgrim7
yuma (1) -- Voltaire
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
cayvie (1) -- ftl
Axxle (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Watno
Not Voting (9) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Voltgloss, Cuzz, Dsell, Galzria, ashersky, Grujah, ibgtennis
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
So, we barely have a leading wagon ATM. And the one we do have is Grujah, which, not super convincing. I have no problem putting my town ass on a wagon to get to the lynch, even if I don't 100% believe in it. But we're so far even from that point.
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Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.
I sincerely apologize if I am the cause of the decrease in fun for you. And for other people. This is not my intention at all. I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, and have meant all my posts in earnest, or in good fun, or a mix of both. No actual anger has driven any of these posts. I hope we can continue to enjoy this game together.
I feel like one thing ZM2 did accomplish (besides MAKING HISTORY) was that I think I understand shraeye a lot better and how he plays. It has made him read townier to me this game.
Why DID the ehunt wagon die? He really did start out the game much edgier and more hostile than I'm used to from him and then eased off it when criticized/voted on. And as much as I approve of using wagons to police good behavior, the fact that he straightened up when the heat hit him doesn't really give him town cred at all. It's what smart scum would do.
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This is going to look like I'm tunneling Grujah, and maybe I am, but how can you oppose his lynch Joth? Dude has said virtually nothing, surely nothing that would make him seem particularly towny. It would also suit the idea of starting to punish people for lurky behavior pretty well.
I usually have a town read on ehunt, but not here. I'm actually very fine with that lynch come to think of it.Vote: ehunt, lets wake this wagon up.
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Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.
I sincerely apologize if I am the cause of the decrease in fun for you. And for other people. This is not my intention at all. I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, and have meant all my posts in earnest, or in good fun, or a mix of both. No actual anger has driven any of these posts. I hope we can continue to enjoy this game together.
I feel like one thing ZM2 did accomplish (besides MAKING HISTORY) was that I think I understand shraeye a lot better and how he plays. It has made him read townier to me this game.
Why DID the ehunt wagon die? He really did start out the game much edgier and more hostile than I'm used to from him and then eased off it when criticized/voted on. And as much as I approve of using wagons to police good behavior, the fact that he straightened up when the heat hit him doesn't really give him town cred at all. It's what smart scum would do.
I did bring this up, although it almost definitely got lost in all the mess. I had reread, that wasn't a lie, and the people that had given me scummy reads were ehunt, yuma, and watno (at least they were the most egregious offenders). But after reading Galzria's post (really loved it, quite informative), I would really love to hone in on who so far has provided us with the most information that can be used once they flipped. There has been a ton thats gone down day 1 and I would love to circle in on something of value.
So I've seen 4 wagons (of note): Shraeye, ehunt, yuma, O.
Shraeye's wagon shouldn't have been a thing. However there were a few sketchy folks on it that had voted for Shraeye for reasons not his scumslip "I cant believe I got caught." I believe these were Watno, Glooble and Grujah, but I could be mistaken.
The ehunt wagon, I forget who started it (Cayvie?) but I dont like it. I was on it cause I thought ehunt was acting just as scummy as the next. But after the misunderstanding of his one-post-a-day proposal blew over (I'm still not 100% convinced it was a misunderstanding but it really isn't that huge of an issue) everything seemed to die down. I dont know how much information can be gained for ehunt dying but maybe someone else has more insight than me.
The yuma wagon was a mess. Mistakes happen, thats cool. The reason that I got on it was because of how Yuma was defending himself, which was much different than the others that jumped on him for "rolefishing." This didn't get much attention but Yuma got, in my opinion, way too defensive way too fast. People also jumped on him very quickly. Maybe there is still something to be gained from that wagon.
The O wagon, I'll admit doesn't really have a whole lot of basis. O might be O but the reason I've been voting for him and have continued to vote for him (facetiously, its not a post restriction, its just emphasis, maybe a little bit of copycatting of shraeye... I thought he was being amusing, maybe I was the only one) is more to do with the way hes been playing than whether or not I think hes scum. I think this might be very similar from the people that are on the wagon. While I still probably would like to see him dead, I dont think his death is the most valuable (yeah thats how lurking works, you dont say much, not much is said about you so you get away for being an invaluable first day kill, blah blah blah). Unvote
So those wagons aside theres still a few people in the works. Whether or not their deaths bring around lots of juicy morsals for the rest of us D2 is another story, but I'm looking at watno (Shraeye outlines his case numerous times), Axxle (where are you buddy), Glooble, and Grujah (who have both been seen getting scummy reads from a pile of people).
I would love to pick one case, see how much we can extract, then get a lynch. Vote: Yuma
PPE: So Eevee is back on the ehunt. I'm not saying its a bad thing but why ehunt? I got scum reads too but what evidence do you have from the wagon that you would like to see used and/or addressed?
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vote: ehunt then. Maybe I need to look over Grujah, again. I don't so much oppose the lynch as feel we can do better.
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vote: ehunt then. Maybe I need to look over Grujah, again. I don't so much oppose the lynch as feel we can do better.
I agree with how hard it is to lynch scum, especially now. Going after a lurker is sort of a combination of random, policy and ingamereasons - lynch. Thats why I went back to reread the silent guys to find one that looked scummy to me. My gut says ehunt feels off here, but Galzria is right, it is sort of unfair to punish him for being active when we have guys alive who have said almost nothing.
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Urgh. We are not punishing him for being active. We are punishing him for being scummy.
Galzria's "All people who are active are scummy" is the false premise in his otherwise solid argument. It's bullshit. There are plenty of active people I have town reads on.
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Urgh. We are not punishing him for being active. We are punishing him for being scummy.
Galzria's "All people who are active are scummy" is the false premise in his otherwise solid argument. It's bullshit. There are plenty of active people I have town reads on.
I never said "all people who are active are scummy". Thanks for misrepresenting though. I said "All active people invariably do things that will be perceived as scummy to some people" - Please, name me one game, just one, with one person who went from D1 to the finish without being accused of saying or doing even a single thing suspicious.
That was my argument, and is completely valid.
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I think what he means is, the guys who lurk never even take the risk of looking scummy because they don't do anything. So, ehunt could have avoided this suspicion just by staying quiet. And we don't want that.
And ninja'd by the man himself.
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I actually got a "town" read on ehunt after that whole kerfuffle. I don't think he's a good lynch.
Galz, do you plan on voting for a non-contributor? If so, who are you eyeing?
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I actually got a "town" read on ehunt after that whole kerfuffle. I don't think he's a good lynch.
Galz, do you plan on voting for a non-contributor? If so, who are you eyeing?
I'm strongly considering Watno. I'm doing a reread atm. I had mild suspicion of eHunt up until his latest (the response to ibg read genuine). I also have a town read on Yuma that I don't want to delve into in-depth. Grujah I force myself to cut some slack on, just like Joth, otherwise I would always see them as scummy. Ibg hasn't posted much still, but I appreciate the effort. This game will be overwhelming for the Vets as is - I can't imagine being a new player here.
Glooble is another candidate I would strongly consider right now. I'll reread him later today. But for now, it's looking to be Watno
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Urgh. We are not punishing him for being active. We are punishing him for being scummy.
Galzria's "All people who are active are scummy" is the false premise in his otherwise solid argument. It's bullshit. There are plenty of active people I have town reads on.
I never said "all people who are active are scummy". Thanks for misrepresenting though. I said "All active people invariably do things that will be perceived as scummy to some people" - Please, name me one game, just one, with one person who went from D1 to the finish without being accused of saying or doing even a single thing suspicious.
That was my argument, and is completely valid.
You in M-II. Granted I was more naive then...
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Urgh. We are not punishing him for being active. We are punishing him for being scummy.
Galzria's "All people who are active are scummy" is the false premise in his otherwise solid argument. It's bullshit. There are plenty of active people I have town reads on.
I never said "all people who are active are scummy". Thanks for misrepresenting though. I said "All active people invariably do things that will be perceived as scummy to some people" - Please, name me one game, just one, with one person who went from D1 to the finish without being accused of saying or doing even a single thing suspicious.
That was my argument, and is completely valid.
You in M-II. Granted I was more naive then...
Volt still suspected me D3, and I did not go without scrutiny D2 from Kuildeous and Insomniac.
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I like TheMunch's thinking about "which wagon will be most informative with a flip," though I'm not sold on his choice of wagon to push.
yuma, who out there (if anyone) has still failed to respond to your outstanding questions?
And I'll vote: eHalcyon. What? Where did that come from? Well... something eHalc said didn't ring right. It's subtle, but I think it's there. I need to reread in more detail to confirm that my recollection of past comments is correct. Once I've done that I'll either explain further or move my vote elsewhere. Due to RL commitments, that may not be until we get closer to the weekend.
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shraeye, could you explain to me what you propose doing when I notice something potentially scummy? Should I just ignore it? (Note: That suggestion is sarcasm)
@Eevee I think when we lynch, we shouldn't consider wether it's fair or not, but how likely it is we will hit scum and how much information we can get from it.
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I'm only to post #421 right now and already have strong reads (well, strong for D1) on lots of people. I'm expecting to have a read on everyone by the time this is through.
I encourage everyone to re-read if you have the time. This is wonderfully helpful.
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Urgh. We are not punishing him for being active. We are punishing him for being scummy.
Galzria's "All people who are active are scummy" is the false premise in his otherwise solid argument. It's bullshit. There are plenty of active people I have town reads on.
I never said "all people who are active are scummy". Thanks for misrepresenting though. I said "All active people invariably do things that will be perceived as scummy to some people" - Please, name me one game, just one, with one person who went from D1 to the finish without being accused of saying or doing even a single thing suspicious.
That was my argument, and is completely valid.
I may be misremembering, but I don't think anyone suspected me at in MIII. Maybe during mylo/lylo, but that cleared up quick after claims.
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Shraeye's wagon shouldn't have been a thing. However there were a few sketchy folks on it that had voted for Shraeye for reasons not his scumslip "I cant believe I got caught." I believe these were Watno, Glooble and Grujah, but I could be mistaken.
The "scumslip" was not a good reason. But other reasons may have been valid. Why do you call out people who voted for other reasons? Why do you describe them as sketchy?
The ehunt wagon, I forget who started it (Cayvie?) but I dont like it. I was on it cause I thought ehunt was acting just as scummy as the next. But after the misunderstanding of his one-post-a-day proposal blew over (I'm still not 100% convinced it was a misunderstanding but it really isn't that huge of an issue) everything seemed to die down. I dont know how much information can be gained for ehunt dying but maybe someone else has more insight than me.
This looks super hedgy to me.
"I don't like the wagon. But I was on it. I was on it because ehunt was acting scummy... yet I don't like the wagon. Maybe I don't like it because it was based on a misunderstanding of ehunt's post-a-day intentions. But maybe it wasn't really a misunderstanding. So do I think ehunt should be lynched? Maybe someone else can answer for me."
The yuma wagon was a mess. Mistakes happen, thats cool. The reason that I got on it was because of how Yuma was defending himself, which was much different than the others that jumped on him for "rolefishing." This didn't get much attention but Yuma got, in my opinion, way too defensive way too fast. People also jumped on him very quickly. Maybe there is still something to be gained from that wagon.
So how was it a mess? Do you think it was a good wagon or a bad wagon? It sounds like you were saying it was no good ("it was a mess... mistakes happen...") but then you criticize yuma more for being too defensive... and then criticize people voting for him for "[jumping] on him very quickly". And again, you end with a maybe.
The O wagon, I'll admit doesn't really have a whole lot of basis. O might be O but the reason I've been voting for him and have continued to vote for him (facetiously, its not a post restriction, its just emphasis, maybe a little bit of copycatting of shraeye... I thought he was being amusing, maybe I was the only one) is more to do with the way hes been playing than whether or not I think hes scum. I think this might be very similar from the people that are on the wagon. While I still probably would like to see him dead, I dont think his death is the most valuable (yeah thats how lurking works, you dont say much, not much is said about you so you get away for being an invaluable first day kill, blah blah blah). Unvote
I really don't like this. OK, voting based on behaviour and not based on "who is scummy" is not terrible. Policy lynches and all that, to try to get players to be more pro-town. Sure. But to still want to see him dead, even though you don't think he's scum? What? No, I want to see such players change their behaviour. I don't want fellow townies to die.
Overall, this just looks like a giant pile of hedge.
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And I'll vote: eHalcyon. What? Where did that come from? Well... something eHalc said didn't ring right. It's subtle, but I think it's there. I need to reread in more detail to confirm that my recollection of past comments is correct. Once I've done that I'll either explain further or move my vote elsewhere. Due to RL commitments, that may not be until we get closer to the weekend.
Looking forward to it.
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If we're trying to get the lynch going before deadline, don't forget that that lynchee might claim a power role we can't risk lynching, thereby forcing us to scramble for a new target. It's happened a few times before, and we should probably have a back-up wagon just in case.
I'll get to answering your question now, The Munch.
The shift in thinking from scum to town for me is largely one of self preservation. As scum, if I had the amount of suspicion I have on me now, I would be saying all kinds of things in defense of my behavior. But at the moment, I'm really not feeling the need to. I think a better focus for my energy would be finding a lynch target with a better chance of being scum.
I'm going to look back over the major candidates and post some things. For now, though, I will say I don't like shraeye or O as possibilities. Shraeye is just way too in-your-face for me to buy him being scum. O will be really helpful in subsequent days.
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Vote Count 1.14
shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (3) -- O, Eevee, Jotheonah
O (1) -- shraeye
Glooble (1) -- yuma
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Morgrim7
yuma (2) -- Voltaire, TheMunch
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
cayvie (1) -- ftl
Axxle (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Watno
eHalcyon (1) -- Voltgloss
Not Voting (8 ) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Cuzz, Dsell, Galzria, ashersky, Grujah, ibgtennis
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Gah, it's MVI all over again.
Currently in the LaL discussions. Let me add this simple bit: It's not nearly the rule in mafiascum. I thought it was when I first brought it up all those games ago, but it's not followed by a majority of people on that forum.
That's all for now.
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Unvote
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Gah, it's MVI all over again.
Currently in the LaL discussions. Let me add this simple bit: It's not nearly the rule in mafiascum. I thought it was when I first brought it up all those games ago, but it's not followed by a majority of people on that forum.
That's all for now.
Never mentioned this, but reading (mostly the end of) random Mafiascum games and finding an Axxle is always quite entertaining.
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@eHalc: I think the best way that I can address your arguments is that I'm not trying to hedge. The spirit of my post was an attempt to evaluate each of the wagons to determine how much valuable information could be gained if the player in question was killed. The problem with this kind of reasoning is that the reasons why or why not someones death might be valuable could be distinct from my reasons for participating in the wagons. So in a way I feel like I was playing my own devil's advocate in each case.
In the case of Shraeye, I really didn't get any kind of scummy vibe and I felt people misinterpretted his "scumslip." So the people that jumped on him for a hunch feel kind of scummy to me. Here, I'm using the argument that scum would often jump on wagons of town to attempt to kill a town during the day.
For the Yuma wagon, I find it hard to evaluate the wagon as anything but a mess a posteriori. This is not in conflict with the fact that I felt that Yuma was scummy. Like I said, I participated in the wagon for a different reason than everyone else. I didn't like the way he was defending himself. Yet it was his defense that led everyone else to believe that Yuma's "rolefishing" was just an honest mistake. Therefore I can both believe the wagon was a mess and still believe Yuma was scummy and participate in the wagon.
As for the O wagon, I think by now it is no surprise that I wasn't a fan of O at the time (notice how I have unvoted since then). It is perfectly reasonable for me to not like the way that O is playing, and want him to not participate anymore regardless of his alignment. My feelings were strong enough that I felt that he would not be a valuable asset to have regardless of whether or not I thought he was town and I wanted to get rid of him. But my personal feelings about how he plays have no bearing. What is important is what information we gain by whether or not O flips town. I really dont think there is much to be gained by O's death at this time so I retracted my vote.
Lastly, on my reread, I still got scum vibes from ehunt but dont have much to back them up and I dont really want to commit to weak feelings and hunches. However, what is important is what information is to be gained from ehunt dying, and I really dont see that much to be gained. There weren't that many hop-ons and most peoples problems with ehunt were resolved by a clarification from ehunt, followed by his increased posting frequency. I dont think there is much to be gained from his death D1.
So to sum up, there is a distinction between my opinions and the information there is to be gained from a D1 lynch from one of the wagons. If there is any hedginess it is mearly the byproduct of me playing my own devil's advocate and using it as a means to facilitate discussion as to who the town most benefits from killing D1. I hope this sparks more conversation and I like that you question my intentions; forces me to be more clear, something that I really want to work on.
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I know I've explained this twice, but I was working it out in my head as I was falling asleep yesterday, and I've got a clearer way to say it I hope. Machine-gunning thin arguments around and seeing what people agree with and pick up on seems to either be a solid scum-play or poor town-play. If you're scum, then you can just post lots of small errors from town-members, see what people agree with, and then drive home a mis-lynch. If you're town, a post with this many people in it could hit scum, but is also bound to sling suspicion at town member. Scum can start agreeing with your argument against that poor town player, and push you into driving home a mislynch.
I really feel like the problem here is that there just aren't going to be super strong cases day 1. There's so little concrete evidence.
Also, machine-gunning thin arguments around can be solid town play, if you do it convincingly enough and with the purpose of paying attention to the responses, not pushing the original argument.
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I know I've explained this twice, but I was working it out in my head as I was falling asleep yesterday, and I've got a clearer way to say it I hope. Machine-gunning thin arguments around and seeing what people agree with and pick up on seems to either be a solid scum-play or poor town-play. If you're scum, then you can just post lots of small errors from town-members, see what people agree with, and then drive home a mis-lynch. If you're town, a post with this many people in it could hit scum, but is also bound to sling suspicion at town member. Scum can start agreeing with your argument against that poor town player, and push you into driving home a mislynch.
I really feel like the problem here is that there just aren't going to be super strong cases day 1. There's so little concrete evidence.
Also, machine-gunning thin arguments around can be solid town play, if you do it convincingly enough and with the purpose of paying attention to the responses, not pushing the original argument.
yes, lets push that meta so any time we do it they just know it's a reaction test and they don't have to seriously respond.
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If we're trying to get the lynch going before deadline, don't forget that that lynchee might claim a power role we can't risk lynching, thereby forcing us to scramble for a new target. It's happened a few times before, and we should probably have a back-up wagon just in case.
I'll get to answering your question now, The Munch.
The shift in thinking from scum to town for me is largely one of self preservation. As scum, if I had the amount of suspicion I have on me now, I would be saying all kinds of things in defense of my behavior. But at the moment, I'm really not feeling the need to. I think a better focus for my energy would be finding a lynch target with a better chance of being scum.
I'm going to look back over the major candidates and post some things. For now, though, I will say I don't like shraeye or O as possibilities. Shraeye is just way too in-your-face for me to buy him being scum. O will be really helpful in subsequent days.
Why do you feel it necessary to compare you behavior to "what you would do if you were scum"? In general, I dont like these arguments as I could say "Well right now i'm being very longposty, but if I was scum I would be trying to stay quiet, so clearly i'm not scum." The argument is not valid unless we know for certain 2 things: 1) how I would actually act when I'm scum (and that this aligns with my claim) and that 2) if I was scum, that I wasn't acting different on purpose just to make this argument. I know a lot of you disagree with me that part 2 is "harder than you'd think" but I would say that since the possibility exists, regardless of how unlikely you may think it is, it must be accounted for.
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@TheMunch: So when others vote for someone who already has a wagon on him with a different reason its scummy, but when you do, it isnt?
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If we're trying to get the lynch going before deadline, don't forget that that lynchee might claim a power role we can't risk lynching, thereby forcing us to scramble for a new target. It's happened a few times before, and we should probably have a back-up wagon just in case.
I'll get to answering your question now, The Munch.
The shift in thinking from scum to town for me is largely one of self preservation. As scum, if I had the amount of suspicion I have on me now, I would be saying all kinds of things in defense of my behavior. But at the moment, I'm really not feeling the need to. I think a better focus for my energy would be finding a lynch target with a better chance of being scum.
I'm going to look back over the major candidates and post some things. For now, though, I will say I don't like shraeye or O as possibilities. Shraeye is just way too in-your-face for me to buy him being scum. O will be really helpful in subsequent days.
Why do you feel it necessary to compare you behavior to "what you would do if you were scum"? In general, I dont like these arguments as I could say "Well right now i'm being very longposty, but if I was scum I would be trying to stay quiet, so clearly i'm not scum." The argument is not valid unless we know for certain 2 things: 1) how I would actually act when I'm scum (and that this aligns with my claim) and that 2) if I was scum, that I wasn't acting different on purpose just to make this argument. I know a lot of you disagree with me that part 2 is "harder than you'd think" but I would say that since the possibility exists, regardless of how unlikely you may think it is, it must be accounted for.
But when Glooble says it we can check it against literally any other game he's been in.
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@O: The distinction I'm trying to make is between the people who get on a wagon for a different reason that they dont share and move around before it has been fleshed out, and myself, where I feel like I have been more than upfront with as specific as possible reasons for my participation in wagons when possible.
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I know I've explained this twice, but I was working it out in my head as I was falling asleep yesterday, and I've got a clearer way to say it I hope. Machine-gunning thin arguments around and seeing what people agree with and pick up on seems to either be a solid scum-play or poor town-play. If you're scum, then you can just post lots of small errors from town-members, see what people agree with, and then drive home a mis-lynch. If you're town, a post with this many people in it could hit scum, but is also bound to sling suspicion at town member. Scum can start agreeing with your argument against that poor town player, and push you into driving home a mislynch.
I really feel like the problem here is that there just aren't going to be super strong cases day 1. There's so little concrete evidence.
Also, machine-gunning thin arguments around can be solid town play, if you do it convincingly enough and with the purpose of paying attention to the responses, not pushing the original argument.
I buy this line of reasoning, I base a majority of my reads on peoples responses to different actions.
But I haven't seen watno collecting responses or paying attention to more than 1 or 2 of them. Maybe I missed some of these while I was focusing on other players, but I'm pretty sure many of the suspicions he had in #608 have gone unanswered. And watno hasn't followed-up on those dropped threads. This gives the impression that he wasn't really intending to send out that list in order to pay attention to the responses.
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Also, machine-gunning thin arguments around can be solid town play, if you do it convincingly enough and with the purpose of paying attention to the responses, not pushing the original argument.
yes, lets push that meta so any time we do it they just know it's a reaction test and they don't have to seriously respond.
If you choose not to respond, you still have made a response. [/Rush]
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yes, lets push that meta so any time we do it they just know it's a reaction test and they don't have to seriously respond.
...really?
That only becomes a problem if machine-gunning cases is the only strategy used, or if it's immediately apparent when used as a strategy.
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@watno: The distinction I'm trying to make is between the people who get on a wagon for a different reason that they dont share and move around before it has been fleshed out, and myself, where I feel like I have been more than upfront with as specific as possible reasons for my participation in wagons when possible.
I misread who made the comment about me. Sorry.
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Another point on wagon hunting, I propose the following reasoning. Lets say we kill a wagon and that person flips either town or scum. Obviously there are more intricacies with the players power role, but lets keep it simple. So if they flip town, we'd want to re-examine the wagon and look at the people who jumped on very quickly after the wagon formed. If they flip scum, we would be looking for people that defended him.
Open question: what wagons do people feel have both elements to them (people who jumped on quickly after the wagon formed, and a strong defense for them by a small number of people) so that regardless of whether or not they flip town, we can deduce good information?
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@shraeye In fact, I got an answer to everything except the question to Morgrim (which I didn't really expect an answer for) and this:
Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
Can you explain why you need ehunt to say something before you can tell us the reasons you vote him for? You did already vote him, so the reasons should be there already.
I'd still like TheMunch to answer it.
I voted Captain_Frisk for still having his vote with strange reason on TheMunch.
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Vote: shraeye
I had a good explanation for this half written but this sums up everything:
I still want to lynch worthless-O more than scummy-watno.
"Let's mislynch town instead of lynching scum"
No. That's complete scum line of thought.
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In the case of Shraeye, I really didn't get any kind of scummy vibe and I felt people misinterpretted his "scumslip." So the people that jumped on him for a hunch feel kind of scummy to me. Here, I'm using the argument that scum would often jump on wagons of town to attempt to kill a town during the day.
This is sidestepping the question I posed. You said that you felt the "scumslip" was a poor reason. OK. So why are people who vote for OTHER reasons sketchy or scummy? Just because there was a bad reason to vote for someone doesn't mean all other reasons are invalidated.
For the Yuma wagon, I find it hard to evaluate the wagon as anything but a mess a posteriori. This is not in conflict with the fact that I felt that Yuma was scummy. Like I said, I participated in the wagon for a different reason than everyone else. I didn't like the way he was defending himself. Yet it was his defense that led everyone else to believe that Yuma's "rolefishing" was just an honest mistake. Therefore I can both believe the wagon was a mess and still believe Yuma was scummy and participate in the wagon.
Yes, but how was it a mess? You thought he was scummy, so how was the wagon a mess? Given that there was a wagon on him, why shouldn't yuma have been defensive?
As for the O wagon, I think by now it is no surprise that I wasn't a fan of O at the time (notice how I have unvoted since then). It is perfectly reasonable for me to not like the way that O is playing, and want him to not participate anymore regardless of his alignment. My feelings were strong enough that I felt that he would not be a valuable asset to have regardless of whether or not I thought he was town and I wanted to get rid of him. But my personal feelings about how he plays have no bearing. What is important is what information we gain by whether or not O flips town. I really dont think there is much to be gained by O's death at this time so I retracted my vote.
That wasn't the point I was getting at. I was noting how it's completely wrong for town to want another townie dead. I won't press it because it might just be a trick of phrasing, but I wanted to point out how that is absolutely the wrong attitude to take.
Lastly, on my reread, I still got scum vibes from ehunt but dont have much to back them up and I dont really want to commit to weak feelings and hunches. However, what is important is what information is to be gained from ehunt dying, and I really dont see that much to be gained. There weren't that many hop-ons and most peoples problems with ehunt were resolved by a clarification from ehunt, followed by his increased posting frequency. I dont think there is much to be gained from his death D1.
Your original thoughts about ehunt still look super, super hedgy. Not just "playing devil's advocate" hedgy or even "unsure townie" hedgy. Just like, "I want to accuse ehunt of being scummy, and his wagon too, but I don't want to be linked to it."
I'll say this -- I think it is a decent idea to look for the most informative lynch... in theory. But in practice, if people are voting for Bob because it will be most informative, then it is no longer informative. Everyone on his wagon has that excuse -- they voted because it would give information!
Now, you could carry it further back and look at the little mini-wagons that formed early on day 1... but that info is less reliable because it is still partially influenced by RVS and because wagons on day 1 are formed on the shakiest of evidence.
I think lynching for information would be better later in the game. But always, always, trying to find scum is the best thing to do. Trying to figure out the most informative lynch is not helpful.
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I'm pretty sure Shraeyes a lyncher with some sort of post restriction. I feel no harm in rolefishing for anti-town roles, and in partial self-interest I'll vote: Shraeye
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Makes sense actually, but Lyncher's not on the list of roles.
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unvote sigh, idk what the hell Shraeye's doing then.
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Robz, is the list of roles compulsive? (please no players answer this because it'll tell us wether their role is on the list)
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Robz, is the list of roles compulsive? (please no players answer this because it'll tell us wether their role is on the list)
comprehensive?
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that's exactly the word intended to be there.
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Robz of all people would include a lyncher whose target is town? After he was so pissed off at getting that role in BMMM?
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Robz, is the list of roles compulsive? (please no players answer this because it'll tell us wether their role is on the list)
I'm guessing it's not, though I too want clarification.
A List of Possible Role and Modifiers
*my emphasis
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Robz of all people would include a lyncher whose target is town? After he was so pissed off at getting that role in BMMM?
That assumes that the lyncher is town. Robz was town-aligned lyncher with a town target. Lynchers are normally just plain anti-town.
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Well, Possible could mean either "all roles that are possible are on this list" or "all roles on this list are possible". But lets just wait for Robz to answer.
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joth, are you saying O is town?
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My current town reads are Watno, O and cayvie.
Interesting catch on jo. Possible scum slip, knowing that O is town? Hm. But I glossed right over that, because of my town read on O. Still...
Vote: jotheonah
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Clearly O thinks O is town and O is the one who suggested shraeye is a lyncher.
What I think has little to do with it.
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My current town reads are Watno, O and cayvie.
Interesting catch on jo. Possible scum slip, knowing that O is town? Hm. But I glossed right over that, because of my town read on O. Still...
Vote: jotheonah
I definitely don't think this is a scumslip by jo. I do have a Fos on him from my re-read, but obviously not for this.
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also, eHalc makes a good point, but Robz's past bad experience with the lyncher role still makes me seriously doubt it's inclusion.
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also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?
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Tried to look over the major wagon candidates, decided it would make more sense to just look over everyone I'm looking specifically for people with a lot of contentless posts, and/or just straight-up lurkers.
1. Ftl - few recent posts, most of them IIoA (hypocritical, since strictly speaking that's what this post is, but I need to collect my thoughts.) Neutral read.
2. Voltgloss - slight town read, mostly from his set-up/ reaction to the yuma wagon, which seems like a town gambit to me more than a scum gambit. Less active than he usually is, but I could attribute this to the size of the town.
3. Eevee - one of the main players at this juncture. Not a candidate for a D1 lynch.
4. Grujah - still my top candidate. He has two substantive posts I found - the one voting for me for "playing just how I always play" and an analysis of everyone's metas, which would be such an easy way for scum to get in a long post without forming any opinions.
5. Insomniac - really hard to navigate with how many other games he's modding/playing, but he doesn't look great. Jumping from wagon to wagon, lots of accusing, not much evidence. That's not necessarily scummy on day one though, and it means flips will tell us more about him.
6. Glooble - modconfirmed to me as town.
7. Dsell - one of my former scumbuddies, and a damn good SK iirc. He's been unmemorable this game. On reading his recent posts, though, I get a town vibe. He's gone after Axxle and defended O, so he has opinions that will be helpful when people start dying.
8. Jotheonah - if he's scum, he's doing a pretty good job of it. Looks town to me so far.
9. Young Nick - I don't envy his upcoming slog.
10. Voltaire - I'll hold off on him until he posts these "thoughts" from this "reread".
11. Axxle - still think he's more likely town for reasons I've stated earlier re: the double-vote.
12. O - strong town read.
I'm gonna post this half now, then work on the next half, so I don't get too far behind the times while I'm composing.
Pre-post edit - this is as of 16 posts ago.
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I want to hear more from Ashersky.
He was one of those slipped-under-my-radar-types who I always feel compelled to go back and reread, and at first the case was looking pretty good. I was thinking he wasn't an absentee lurker (like grujah has been, hard to be suspicious when it's RL reasons) and he had posted a few little things without a lot of content (such as calling out Shraeye's "scumslip" which was just sarcasm, calling out yuma without joining the wagon, and voting O because it's easy). Then I saw the post where he says he was moving this week and the case went from "possible scum trying to fit in" to "somewhat absentee due to RL." And I totally get it, but I'd like to request more content from you when you are able to post.
I realize I might look a bit like a hypocrite here since I haven't been very loud or involved. But like I've said, I'm definitely surveying everything to try to get reads, and when I find something like this, I will post it.
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Actually, I have to go now. So numbers 13 - 25 will have to wait until tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Sorry.
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This game is back to being pleasant and playable. Good!
OK, I've got to reread the following people who are being accused: eHalcyon, ehunt, Grujah, yuma, Watno, shraeye. This will take a while. [PPE: And Resistance III stuff interrupted me while I was doing it, so this post took like foreeever despite having little in it, so this post goes like two pages ago, I see a lot has happened since then]
eHalcyon: hm. I don't see what Voltgloss is seeing in eHalc's posts. The cult-hunting instead of mafia-hunting? Slight scumread based on that.
ehunt: Definite townread. FoS at his wagon: " Jotheonah, TheMunch, Eevee, O". Though that was really early.
Grujah: started the discussion of metas with his list. Then vanished. No read, but he's definitely lurky. Scumread then.
yuma: Started an O wagon based on a threat of his from a previous game. Voted cayvie because of misunderstanding her post, and this turned into a yuma wagon? Yuma explains but gets wagoned anyway. I *really* like his questions-for-lurkers thing. Townread.
Watno: was a little all over the place for a while; after rereading his posts I didn't actually get a good idea of who he suspected, other than I guess shraeye for a bit. No read.
shraeye: kerfuffle with actilurking. He's on the yuma wagon for a bit and argues there. Joins the O wagon. Joins the O wagon. Joins the O wagon. Joins the O wagon. ...continues arguing for other people despite constantly voting O, which confuses me. He also skips between being sarcastic and abrasive and being helpful. Idunno, I get the impression that everyone thinks he's town, but I don't agree, it could be good Mafia play. Hedging by voting for O while arguing against others. Though I guess O attracted a lot of that. Either a scumread or a townread, not quite sure yet.
There was also a case on glooble a bit back. Shraeye pointed out the contrast between posts http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg107107#msg107107 and http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg108438#msg108438 . And I don't remember anything about him, which means he's flying under the radar. Light scumread.
Unvote , cayvie's not a good place for my vote. I'll be a cop-out and wait for Volt to make his case.
Or, maybe not. Vote: shraeye .
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@ftl My main suspect is Grujah (for pointed out (acti-)lurking). The only reason my vote isn't on him yet is the fact that Frisks vote makes no sense at all, and it's still there.
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also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?
Do you think so, or is that OMGUS? I don't know, it's the closest thing I've seen to a scumslip so far. I just haven't voted for anyone yet. You don't even have anyone else voting for you, do you?
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eHalcyon: hm. I don't see what Voltgloss is seeing in eHalc's posts. The cult-hunting instead of mafia-hunting? Slight scumread based on that.
If I were to guess, it might be because I made a big deal about cult hunting but then did not actually try to cult-hunt. The reason is that I really have no idea how to go about cult-hunting, other than regular scumhunting. I do believe that a cult is legitimately more dangerous than other scum UNLESS it is balanced by some special twists. I trust that, if there is a cult, Robz will have accounted for it.
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also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?
Do you think so, or is that OMGUS? I don't know, it's the closest thing I've seen to a scumslip so far. I just haven't voted for anyone yet. You don't even have anyone else voting for you, do you?
Axxle called joth out for fighting too much with only 1 vote in 232. It seems to be a pattern with him.
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I want to hear more from Ashersky.
He was one of those slipped-under-my-radar-types who I always feel compelled to go back and reread, and at first the case was looking pretty good. I was thinking he wasn't an absentee lurker (like grujah has been, hard to be suspicious when it's RL reasons) and he had posted a few little things without a lot of content (such as calling out Shraeye's "scumslip" which was just sarcasm, calling out yuma without joining the wagon, and voting O because it's easy). Then I saw the post where he says he was moving this week and the case went from "possible scum trying to fit in" to "somewhat absentee due to RL." And I totally get it, but I'd like to request more content from you when you are able to post.
I realize I might look a bit like a hypocrite here since I haven't been very loud or involved. But like I've said, I'm definitely surveying everything to try to get reads, and when I find something like this, I will post it.
Dsell, fair point, I've been a bit quiet. As you noted, I am mid-move (hotel wifi now) but will try to contribute. Except not right now, unfortunately. A bit more to do, but I wanted to respond to let you know I saw it and will respond, hopefully later tonight.
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also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?
Do you think so, or is that OMGUS? I don't know, it's the closest thing I've seen to a scumslip so far. I just haven't voted for anyone yet. You don't even have anyone else voting for you, do you?
OMGUS would involve my actually voting you. But here's why I found it scummy. I say something that apparently reads like i know O's alignment (I explained why that's not the case). Watno asks what appears to me to be a clarifying question. You, in one swell foop, deem it a scum slip and cast a vote. But it all happens so fast that you make it look like Watno called it a scum slip. It just read to me like you (1) trying to make a much too big deal out of a thing and (2) trying to make it look like you were following, rather than leading.
TL;DR I meant what I said. The vote itself was scummy. (Regardless of how many others I do or don't have on me)
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10. Voltaire - I'll hold off on him until he posts these "thoughts" from this "reread".
I'm doing this at work, this thread has 35+ pages. I'm at post 675.
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Couple of things:
The shift in thinking from scum to town for me is largely one of self preservation. As scum, if I had the amount of suspicion I have on me now, I would be saying all kinds of things in defense of my behavior. But at the moment, I'm really not feeling the need to. I think a better focus for my energy would be finding a lynch target with a better chance of being scum.
I don't know if I would categorize you as having a high amount of suspicion right now... Immediately after your post is a vote count wherein I am the only one voting for you. A handful of others have expressed a suspicion of you, but that is to be expected with 25 players. So, truthfully we don't know how you would act if you were under a high amount of suspicion.
But even if you were, this isn't a great argument. But thanks for answering my question
yuma, who out there (if anyone) has still failed to respond to your outstanding questions?
I believe the last of them was answered by Glooble in the quote above.
And lastly, I have a suggestion on how to handle our time as we get closer to the deadline. I would like feedback as this could have both positive and negative repercussions that I haven't completely hashed out yet.
1. We set a soft deadline (Perhaps this upcoming Wednesday, midnight forum time?)
2. We treat that deadline as a hard deadline in that immediately after that deadline a vote count (either official or unofficial is good) is established.
3. From that point onward we treat the rest of Day 1 as if a no-lynch and a night w/o kills occurred.
4. This will allow us to look back on voting patterns from a deadline point of view and also be able to speculate and become more suspicious of people who may have caused us to "no-lynch"
5. From there work further on the wagons that existed at our soft deadline and potentially form new wagons on those who did not help the town move toward a lynch.
I think this plan is good because I believe a lynch to be better than a no lynch. (Of course I do also believe that a player should not vote for someone on whom he has a very very strong town read on) but that is a poor town excuse (because someone with a super strong town read Day 1 is rare) or is a scum excuse (see O in MVIII).
thoughts?
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also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?
Do you think so, or is that OMGUS? I don't know, it's the closest thing I've seen to a scumslip so far. I just haven't voted for anyone yet. You don't even have anyone else voting for you, do you?
OMGUS would involve my actually voting you. But here's why I found it scummy. I say something that apparently reads like i know O's alignment (I explained why that's not the case). Watno asks what appears to me to be a clarifying question. You, in one swell foop, deem it a scum slip and cast a vote. But it all happens so fast that you make it look like Watno called it a scum slip. It just read to me like you (1) trying to make a much too big deal out of a thing and (2) trying to make it look like you were following, rather than leading.
TL;DR I meant what I said. The vote itself was scummy. (Regardless of how many others I do or don't have on me)
I'm thinking of OMGUS as more of an attitude than the voting action itself.
Read over my post again. Watno did indeed catch it, and asked about it. I said it was a POSSIBLE scum slip. I called it that. I'll own it. I didn't say it was definitely a scum slip either -- I gave the example that I myself didn't notice you doing that. Still, it was interesting enough that I thought I would cast my first vote. I'm not at all trying to make it look like I'm following. As the one who cast the vote, I am leading.
Interestingly enough, I recall you doing this very thing you are calling "scummy" in MVI. Galzria said something a little funny. I called it out but I didn't vote -- I only questioned it. And then you jumped right in immediately after me and cast a vote on Galz. And remember, in that case, you and Galz were both town. So maybe we should suspect Watno in this situation. :P
Am I remembering incorrectly? I can go look for that exchange, if you'd like. I have to get going though, so it would be later tonight.
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That sounds familiar. I did not play that game super well. I'm not voting you over this anyway, eHal. I will weigh it in with whatever else comes out against you (which is so far ... a whole lot of nothing).
Voltgloss, though. Voltgloss is a player I respect, and when he gears up for a case like this and finally offers it up it's usually good. Or it's NOT good and the gearing and offering itself is part of an elaborate gambit. But whatever it is, I'm waiting with baited breath.
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12. O - strong town read.
Hey Glooble, could you help me out here. Which posts by O are driving these thoughts. I recently scanned his posts and I still can't get a solid read on O, as he rarely puts out his opinion (or at least his explanation of these opinions. There are a lot of "X reads as town" or "Y is scummier than Z here", but these are conclusions, not explanations). It just seems weird that you'd have a strong read on him one way or the other at this point.
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In the case of Shraeye, I really didn't get any kind of scummy vibe and I felt people misinterpretted his "scumslip." So the people that jumped on him for a hunch feel kind of scummy to me. Here, I'm using the argument that scum would often jump on wagons of town to attempt to kill a town during the day.
This is sidestepping the question I posed. You said that you felt the "scumslip" was a poor reason. OK. So why are people who vote for OTHER reasons sketchy or scummy? Just because there was a bad reason to vote for someone doesn't mean all other reasons are invalidated.
To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying they are sketchy entirely because they voted for a different reason. I'm saying they are sketchy because they seemed to have jumped on him for no reason, and then backed off without explaining. Not only till just recently did glooble actually comment on that, and If you saw my response, I still wasn't happy with it.
For the Yuma wagon, I find it hard to evaluate the wagon as anything but a mess a posteriori. This is not in conflict with the fact that I felt that Yuma was scummy. Like I said, I participated in the wagon for a different reason than everyone else. I didn't like the way he was defending himself. Yet it was his defense that led everyone else to believe that Yuma's "rolefishing" was just an honest mistake. Therefore I can both believe the wagon was a mess and still believe Yuma was scummy and participate in the wagon.
Yes, but how was it a mess? You thought he was scummy, so how was the wagon a mess? Given that there was a wagon on him, why shouldn't yuma have been defensive?
It was a mess because it grew incredibly quickly and died for no reason. I thought he was scummy; the wagon was a mess for the reasons why it formed and disbanded, myself excluded; I can believe Yuma was being scummy, then vote for him thus participating in the wagon, without participating for the reasons the others were, which I disagree with. Yuma is allowed to be defensive; he probably shouldn't have exploded though. He was way too concerned he was going to die from that wagon and "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it" is not a good defense.
As for the O wagon, I think by now it is no surprise that I wasn't a fan of O at the time (notice how I have unvoted since then). It is perfectly reasonable for me to not like the way that O is playing, and want him to not participate anymore regardless of his alignment. My feelings were strong enough that I felt that he would not be a valuable asset to have regardless of whether or not I thought he was town and I wanted to get rid of him. But my personal feelings about how he plays have no bearing. What is important is what information we gain by whether or not O flips town. I really dont think there is much to be gained by O's death at this time so I retracted my vote.
That wasn't the point I was getting at. I was noting how it's completely wrong for town to want another townie dead. I won't press it because it might just be a trick of phrasing, but I wanted to point out how that is absolutely the wrong attitude to take.
First off let me say I dont know that O is town; I dont know what you know. He has become civil and I am able to deal with him now but that doesn't mean hes actually contributed. He has said nothing of value enough for anyone to have a read on him, imo. But that doesn't mean it is completely wrong for town to want another town dead. If that town is contributing poorly, somehow disrupting the game, and being a bad townie, then it is quite fathomable to want another townie dead. Contribution is paramount and O hasn't provided any.
Lastly, on my reread, I still got scum vibes from ehunt but dont have much to back them up and I dont really want to commit to weak feelings and hunches. However, what is important is what information is to be gained from ehunt dying, and I really dont see that much to be gained. There weren't that many hop-ons and most peoples problems with ehunt were resolved by a clarification from ehunt, followed by his increased posting frequency. I dont think there is much to be gained from his death D1.
Your original thoughts about ehunt still look super, super hedgy. Not just "playing devil's advocate" hedgy or even "unsure townie" hedgy. Just like, "I want to accuse ehunt of being scummy, and his wagon too, but I don't want to be linked to it."
I was on the ehunt wagon. I was on it cause I thought he was being scummy. I am linked to it and anyone can reread and see it. Not trying to distance myself from anything; no regrets. That being said, my point was that the ehunt wagon didn't really ever amount to anything and I dont think it has any value. Thats all.
I'll say this -- I think it is a decent idea to look for the most informative lynch... in theory. But in practice, if people are voting for Bob because it will be most informative, then it is no longer informative. Everyone on his wagon has that excuse -- they voted because it would give information!
Now, you could carry it further back and look at the little mini-wagons that formed early on day 1... but that info is less reliable because it is still partially influenced by RVS and because wagons on day 1 are formed on the shakiest of evidence.
I think lynching for information would be better later in the game. But always, always, trying to find scum is the best thing to do. Trying to figure out the most informative lynch is not helpful.
This isn't what I am trying to accomplish. I dont think we both mean the same thing when I say wagon, so let me be perfectly clear. By wagon, I mean to say a group of people that voted for a particular person for some shared reason or over a shared period of time. We have already had these wagons. I am not attempting to make ANOTHER yuma wagon, or an ehunt wagon, or an O wagon. What i'm trying to do is find out if we kill ehunt, or yuma, or O, which one of the wagons that has ALREADY HAPPENED will provide the most information if its target is dead. Lets say we decide to kill yuma because it would provide the most valuable information; then I'm not nearly as concerned with the people that helped vote to kill (for the sake of flipping his card) as the people on the earlier wagons. It is impossible to find scum day 1. I want to make day 2 as informed as possible and "trying to figure out the most informative lynch" is precisely the way to do it. In fact, it bothers me that you are so against the idea of trying to gain as much information as possible. Kinda scummy to me. Vote: eHalcyon
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2 things:
Yuma is allowed to be defensive; he probably shouldn't have exploded though. He was way too concerned he was going to die from that wagon and "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it" is not a good defense.
That actually is a fine defense. It can be a softclaim of a PR. Lynching PRs is bad.
But that doesn't mean it is completely wrong for town to want another town dead. If that town is contributing poorly, somehow disrupting the game, and being a bad townie, then it is quite fathomable to want another townie dead. Contribution is paramount and O hasn't provided any.
It's wrong for town to want town dead. That is directly in opposition to your win condition. It's fine to want a lynch over a no-lynch with the understanding that the person being lynched is probably town, but there's no good reason to want to lynch someone you actually have a townread on.
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It is impossible to find scum day 1.
This isn't true! It's usually true, but that right there means it's not impossible. They managed to do it in the Blitz game that just ended (although that was based on a random lynch) and we nearly pulled it off in another game, even though it was pretty large.
It kinda depends on whether there are multiple scumteams or just one. If there's just one I think it'd be a bit harder to get a wagon really going on one of them.
But mostly I don't think it's a very productive attitude to have. It can be done, we just need to look outside the box, which might actually be easier for you since you're not steeped in f.ds mafia games.
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Voltgloss, though. Voltgloss is a player I respect, and when he gears up for a case like this and finally offers it up it's usually good. Or it's NOT good and the gearing and offering itself is part of an elaborate gambit. But whatever it is, I'm waiting with baited breath.
No gambit here. As said before, I need to reread to see if the case makes as much sense as I think it does. And if it doesn't, I'll cheerfully admit/explain that.
But if it does make sense? Then yes, I'm going to present something that I - at least - think will warrant serious consideration.
Unfortunately RL and work pretty much demand that my opportunity to reread and present the case likely won't happen until tomorrow evening. Will try to expedite but can't promise I'll be successful. Tomorrow evening without fail, though.
PPE: I think my case will be an example of "look[ing] outside the box" as Dsell referenced in his last post. We'll see what everyone else thinks once I have it out there.
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Ok, here we go...
4. Grujah - still my top candidate. He has two substantive posts I found - the one voting for me for "playing just how I always play" and an analysis of everyone's metas, which would be such an easy way for scum to get in a long post without forming any opinions.
12. O - strong town read.
I'm with you all the way on Grujah. In fact, my vote is already on him. We have some time yet, so I'm gonna keep it there. But, coming up so close to the deadline, I'd really go with most lynches.
What? Could you please explain your read on O? I don't get a town vibe from him at all.
and now, mine
1. Ftl: I'm Ok with lynching him, I guess. Not optimal, though
2. Voltgloss: Looking pretty town
3. Eevee: I could lynch him
4. Grujah: PRIMARY LYNCH.
5. Insomniac: Looks ok, I guess. Would lynch him though
6. Glooble: I would also lynch him, but I wan to see an explanation first
7. Dsell: Would lynch him to.
8. Jotheonah: looks town
9. Young Nick: poor guy.
10. Voltaire: I would lynch him.
11. Axxle: Would lynch him too.
12. O: SECONDARY LYNCH
13. Cayvie: looking townish, but also scummy. meh, no read
14. Shraeye: Would lynch
15. Cuzz: no read
16. Yuma: meh, idk
17. igbtennis: no read
18. TheMunch: looks pretty ok, but I would still lynch him
19. Morgrim7: I would totally lynch him
20. EHalcyon: TERTIARY LYNCH A i'm ok with lynching him and he already has a wagon
21. Watno
22. Galzria
23. Captain_Frisk: not participating much, which isn't like him at all. very odd. scummy even TERTIARY LYNCH B
24. ehunt TERTIARY LYNCH C " eHal
25. ashersky: no read
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I am going to jump in to the argument that eHal and TheMunch are having about me, but w/o me...
Yuma is allowed to be defensive; he probably shouldn't have exploded though. He was way too concerned he was going to die from that wagon and "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it" is not a good defense.
Here are my two quotes that TheMunch is referencing:
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
This whole investigation is blowing a mistake into something else and I feel even worse because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention. If it does end up that I get lynched, I apologize for putting town in this position, but I do not apologize for rolefishing, because I didn't! Town is simply misinterpreting my post in the same way that I misinterpreted cayvies!
I would argue that in neither of these posts--mind you they are excerpts from them and not the entire post, click the link to see them in whole--do I say or even imply that "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it."
What I do say is that "town is going to pay the consequences" and that I would feel bad getting lynched for this "because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention"
I believe that TheMunch is mischaracterizing my posts and potentially confusing them with a similar post (ehunt apparently had a similar post according to TheMunch, see below) although I personally do not remember ehunt making this argument. Could you point it out to us Munch?
Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip. I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line. I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched. You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss. I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing. It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy. You get my Vote: Yuma.
In no way was I saying "I am too important and town will regret it" instead I was saying "Sorry guys, I messed up, if I get lynched mafia will either not have to even vote for me or will have to do very little work to get a townie lynched"
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Hm, I think I buy that.
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Ha.
Ha ha.
I just got internet.
I have 37 pages to read.
I have no free time.
Ha.
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Ha.
Ha ha.
I just got internet.
I have 37 pages to read.
I have no free time.
Ha.
vote: young nick
excuses are for scum >:|
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I am so intimidated by the size and length of this game that I wouldn't even be that upset.
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OMGUS
Vote: cayvie
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Also, scanning through while looking for my name, someone (I think jotheonah) said they were looking forward to my analysis. That's not happening soon. I might have internet now, but I am still relatively LA, as I have let Robz know. I would greatly appreciate some summary and may or may not have time to read all 37 pages. So yeah, this is a really rough start for me. The game literally could not have started at a worse time for me and all the roles make the meta so much harder. Newbie-friendly my ass.
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Like c'mon now, I don't even have multiple pages of "Recent Unread Posts." I used to be able to get that up to three pages in less than 24 hours.
The rest of f.ds is totally silent. And then, ZM2 starts and ends while I am gone. And then MXII starts before I even have a chance to see the pre-game sign up.
Why is the only thing that is happening here Mafia? Dark Ages came out! Go play Dominion, sheesh. All of you.
I ask that for three days, no one posts, I won't ask robz to mod-prod anyone and then maybe we could be on equal footing. (Not a serious request.)
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Like c'mon now, I don't even have multiple pages of "Recent Unread Posts." I used to be able to get that up to three pages in less than 24 hours.
The rest of f.ds is totally silent. And then, ZM2 starts and ends while I am gone. And then MXII starts before I even have a chance to see the pre-game sign up.
Why is the only thing that is happening here Mafia? Dark Ages came out! Go play Dominion, sheesh. All of you.
I ask that for three days, no one posts, I won't ask robz to mod-prod anyone and then maybe we could be on equal footing. (Not a serious request.)
Just do what I did and skip it.
I think the summary is: nothing happened that you can't read later, and o may have been scummy.
Now you are caught up.
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Oh, and the munch edited a post
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Oh, and the munch edited a post
You're still on that?! <3 Clearly I'm hiding everything in that post and I dont like that you caught me so Vote: Captain_Frisk
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Also, Unvote, Vote: eHalcyon
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Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
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That should say majority is hard....
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Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
Bad idea is bad, and you should feel bad.
Really, I know getting a Majority is going to suck, but I'm not giving Dayvig to someone of unknown alignment, no matter how much I trust them. And this idea removes all accountability that makes any lynch worthwhile.
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So, what commentary I can add on the fly...
I think on the eHalc vs. Munch thing, I lean toward eHal. I've only played one game with him previously, and he was literally a robot, so didn't get much of a pre-read coming into this, but he seems sane and town to me so far. So as far as a read of the argument itself, and not the content of the argument, eHalc seems ahead.
Yuma's reasoning is believable.
Welcome to the ride, Nick.
Am I voting for Frisk? I think I am. I should be. He's been testy, which to me is scummy Frisk as opposed to town Frisk. Then again, I don't even know town Frisk, since he was scum in MX and ZM2. Also, rushing the vote into a random lynch is scummy and/or anti-town, I think, regardless of our luck in ZM2.
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Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
This is TERRIBLE. This is really terrible. Like...what the heck? And take away the only really good thing that comes from D1? (The lynch wagon)
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...and I am CAUGHT UP!
Here goes. Cayvie, if you have similar notes to share, go for it.
So I've taken notes on the stuff I consider important for the entire thread. From this, I can generate several different categories.
First up, here's the rankings by what I consider "informational posts" (obviously subjective):
eHalc/jotheonah
ehunt
Munch/yuma
Dsell/cayvie/shraeye
Glooble/Eevee/Galzria
Morgrim/ftl/Voltgloss
ashersky/O
Cuzz/Insomniac/Axxle
Grujah
Captain_Frisk/ibgtennis
Under this kind of analysis, it's Frisk, tennis, and Grujah who stick out like sore thumbs. And of them, I am extremely comfortable with a Vote: Captain_Frisk. He's contributed almost nothing, and his one big idea is a terrible, terrible dayvig system (like Galzria pointed out). This is exactly how scumFrisk plays. I am quite happy with this vote.
Other observations:
Morgrim - he has not had a unique idea or read this whole time, as far as I can tell. He just seems to be echoing someone from an argument several pages earlier. Also, not playing like Morgrim at all. OK with a lynch here.
jotheonah - has been willing to vote for pretty much everyone, but the arguments he supports don't seem to have that much merit to me. Consider this a FoS.
Axxle - too little content. Also, cat's out of the bag that he seems to be a doublevoter. Unsure what to make of that.
ftl - very helpful early, not much anymore. Though did he say he'd be away for a bit?
Watno - probably the scummiest of the non-lurkers. I agree with shraeye's points about him.
I have reasonably strong town reads on the following: TheMunch, yuma (his explanations make sense and I don't see anything scummy in his reaction on a re-read), shraeye, Eevee, eHalc, ehunt, Galzria.
Everyone else falls somewhere into "no read" or "no strong read."
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So, what commentary I can add on the fly...
I think on the eHalc vs. Munch thing, I lean toward eHal. I've only played one game with him previously, and he was literally a robot, so didn't get much of a pre-read coming into this, but he seems sane and town to me so far. So as far as a read of the argument itself, and not the content of the argument, eHalc seems ahead.
Yuma's reasoning is believable.
Welcome to the ride, Nick.
Am I voting for Frisk? I think I am. I should be. He's been testy, which to me is scummy Frisk as opposed to town Frisk. Then again, I don't even know town Frisk, since he was scum in MX and ZM2. Also, rushing the vote into a random lynch is scummy and/or anti-town, I think, regardless of our luck in ZM2.
In VI, eHal was really helpful too. Like, he was the most pro-town person there on D1 but he was mafia. That doesn't say much about him here since he's good as a townie too, but looking townie doesn't make someone town. In some cases it's even easier for mafia to be measuredly cool under pressure or in an argument because townies have the frustration of not knowing anything.
I find it hard to read much into Frisk right now. He's had so many games as mafia in a row, it'd be easy to be strained, even if he is town here. He'd be out of practice!
Thanks for commenting, Ashersky.
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Voltaire, where does Watno fit in your ranking? (obviously young nick isn't there, and you don't include yourself)
He's the only one I see missing from the list at the top.
My top 3 least informational were Axxle, Watno, and Grujah.
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Morgrim - he has not had a unique idea or read this whole time, as far as I can tell. He just seems to be echoing someone from an argument several pages earlier. Also, not playing like Morgrim at all. OK with a lynch here.
Morgrim always plays this way, in his own words from MIX this is why:
Why do I never have unique info to add? I let you guys do the hard thinking, and choose which case is better. But is someone really jumps out to me as scum, I'll vote for that person.
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Voltaire, where does Watno fit in your ranking? (obviously young nick isn't there, and you don't include yourself)
He's the only one I see missing from the list at the top.
My top 3 least informational were Axxle, Watno, and Grujah.
Thanks, I figured I'd miss someone. Watno is in the lower middle. I did score myself, btw. I'm in the upper-middle (but ymmv).
Here's the corrected list:
eHalc/jotheonah
ehunt
Munch/yuma
Dsell/cayvie/shraeye/Voltaire
Glooble/Eevee/Galzria
Morgrim/ftl/Voltgloss/Watno
ashersky/O
Cuzz/Insomniac/Axxle
Grujah
Captain_Frisk/ibgtennis
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Found this interesting situation on mafiawiki
It is possible for a Doublevoter to simultaneously hammer two wagons under very specific conditions. What the moderator does in this scenario is not standardized simply because it's not a commonly plied strategy - if you're interested, contact your moderator to ask how they would handle such an occurrence.
Probably won't happen, but it would be totally epic if it did... automatic MVP
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Found this interesting situation on mafiawiki
It is possible for a Doublevoter to simultaneously hammer two wagons under very specific conditions. What the moderator does in this scenario is not standardized simply because it's not a commonly plied strategy - if you're interested, contact your moderator to ask how they would handle such an occurrence.
Probably won't happen, but it would be totally epic if it did... automatic MVP
I don't think he can split his vote. It appears to be automatic "your vote counts twice". But that's just observation and may be wrong.
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Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
Bad idea is bad, and you should feel bad.
Really, I know getting a Majority is going to suck, but I'm not giving Dayvig to someone of unknown alignment, no matter how much I trust them. And this idea removes all accountability that makes any lynch worthwhile.
I don't feel bad. It's going to be damn near impossible for someone to do something so scummy that we end up with a majority lynch. (Maybe I just did it - who knows)
We'd end up with a bunch of information
- those for / against the day vig
- information from the dayvigger
- the feelings / reactions from everyone as we vote for the selector
Uncomfortable with a single all powerful day vigger?
Give the top 7 people in "comfortable voters" a vote - and then we go with the majority from there - we still end up with a wagon + all of the above
Oh - and Voltaire - Frisk hunting is the new Morgrim hunting. Didn't you hear?
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It appears no one has noticed my suggestion for trying to get around the plurality?
And lastly, I have a suggestion on how to handle our time as we get closer to the deadline. I would like feedback as this could have both positive and negative repercussions that I haven't completely hashed out yet.
1. We set a soft deadline (Perhaps this upcoming Wednesday, midnight forum time?)
2. We treat that deadline as a hard deadline in that immediately after that deadline a vote count (either official or unofficial is good) is established.
3. From that point onward we treat the rest of Day 1 as if a no-lynch and a night w/o kills occurred.
4. This will allow us to look back on voting patterns from a deadline point of view and also be able to speculate and become more suspicious of people who may have caused us to "no-lynch"
5. From there work further on the wagons that existed at our soft deadline and potentially form new wagons on those who did not help the town move toward a lynch.
I think this plan is good because I believe a lynch to be better than a no lynch. (Of course I do also believe that a player should not vote for someone on whom he has a very very strong town read on) but that is a poor town excuse (because someone with a super strong town read Day 1 is rare) or is a scum excuse (see O in MVIII).
thoughts?
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Can't say why I trust O as much as I do. I was his scum buddy in... MIV? I don't remember which game, but as scum he was much more flippant and kind of erratic. This terse, no-nonsense day one is town O. I don't necessarily agree with it, but its consistent. Sorry I can't explain it any better.
I could get behind this Frisk wagon. That suggestion was... really awful.
Ok, bed now. I won't be on again until I get home from work tomorrow at like four. If it still looks relevant, I'll try and get some thoughts up on the last 13 people.
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Oh yeah, yuma's idea. I like it in theory, but I'm not sure it will pan out. Some townies are resistant to people trying to "control the town" which it might be seen as. I'd go along with a soft deadline, though.
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Y'all are unhelpful as hell. Gimme the summary. Good luck getting to majority when multiple (if I am reading correctly) are still struggling to even read all of the posts, let alone have thoughts on them.
Where is timchen? :(
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Y'all are unhelpful as hell. Gimme the summary. Good luck getting to majority when multiple (if I am reading correctly) are still struggling to even read all of the posts, let alone have thoughts on them.
Where is timchen? :(
There was a wagon on Dsell for Morgrim hunting, but mostly RVS
Someone--it appears to be Axxle has a double (likely secret vote)
There was a wagon on ehunt I think the first post was jot? at post 322 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.300)
There was a wagon on shraeye starting post 315 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.300)
There was a wagon on me starting post 489 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.475)
Scattered throughout there have been multiple votes to prod people into activity including, but not limited to: O, ibgtennis, Glooble, Grujah, Frisk and more.
There have been semi-wagons on O (scattered), eHal post 909 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.900) and a newer one on shraeye again...
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Stuff that happened, in no particular order:
There was a bunch of argument about whether lynching lurkers is a good idea and some votes on lurkers, with Galz, me, O, joth, and others involved.
O pissed off a bunch of people and some people voted for him.
ehunt talked about theory stuff and made long posts once a day.
There were wagons on shraeye and yuma based on "scumslips".
If you want to know exactly who was on those wagons, search for Robz's posts and vote counts. [PPE: Or, yuma's links.]
The town has a doublevoter and probably a cult (according to eevee). Cayvie and ehunt claimed minor role stuff (cayvie doesn't want to be on a town lynch wagon for role reasons, ehunt doesn't want someone to give him some item).
...ok, that's what I remember.
Soft deadline seems reasonable.
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frisk, i can't support your plan. I think it's dangerous to create ranked lists of people whom we think are town. (PPE: I wasn't going to mention this since I'd hoped my post about the item got buried, but ftl just re-referenced it and it was stupid to think scum didn't notice it anyway. The person I think is towniest by a longshot is the person I think has the item, and basically I'd either have to expose that person or lie if i were to follow your plan; either is bad.) I would be happy to say the ten people I find the most likely to be town in alphabetical order, or something, but not to rank them. Anyway, sounds like nobody's behind the plan but you for now.
to everyone else, i disagree with the frisk-plan but i don't think it's scummy that he proposed it. this is how i feel in general when people publicly propose things like massclaims or weird town-strategies. i find it farfetched that scum would deliberately calculate a bad strategy for the town, then try to sell it really hard to the town as a good strategy for the town. you have to believe that all your opponents are sheep to do that. it's far more likely that when someone proposes a bad strategy, they genuinely think it's a good strategy, than that they genuinely think that it's a bad strategy that they can somehow convince many many people is a good strategy.
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I could get behind this Frisk wagon. That suggestion was... really awful.
A Frisk wagon, if one happens, in my mind should mostly not be about the suggestion. It should be about how he has contributed virtually 0 useful posts, and one of his "useful" posts is a terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad idea.
@Yuma - I did read your idea about a soft deadline, but it just seems so impossible to enfore/get everyone to respect that I don't know if it would really be possible to pull off.
@YoungNick - seeing as I just took notes on the whole thing, here's my attempt. Others, feel free to add/correct as necessary, this is certainly slightly out of order:
- There was talk about the meta of Robz picking people's roles
- ehunt says we shouldn't reveal our cards
- People give their meta reads of everyone, others question if that's useful
- Dsell half-heartedly tried to policy-lynch Morgrim, a wagon formed on Dsell briefly
- There's a giant discussion about "acti-lurking"
- eHunt says we should only post once a day, a wagon forms on him briefly
- a wagon forms on shraeye, I think for abrasive posts? No, it was a sarcastic comment some saw as a scumslip
- We debate if we should lynch lurkers - Galz is the biggest champion of this
- TheMunch edits a post, at C_F's request he makes his avatar the Cheater from something
- cayvie says it's bad for her to be on a wagon
- Yuma asks why, a wagon forms on him for rolefishing
- It's pretty clear Axxle is a double-voter
- eHunt says nobody should give him a certain item
- Eevee reveals mod-confirmed info there is a faction that can recruit
- A wagon builds to policy-lynch O for lurking
- The tone turns nasty for a bit, then everyone apologizes and moves on
There's obviously tons I'm leaving out, it's 38 pages, but that's kinda an outline?
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Soft deadline then? When?
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but ftl just re-referenced it and it was stupid to think scum didn't notice it anyway.
to clarify, stupid here means "stupid of me," not "stupid of ftl" (or anyone else)
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Soft deadline then? When?
I don't mind yuma's proposal of next Wednesday night. I imagine the usual suspects are going to pretty much ignore it though.
Frisk, please say stuff about how you feel about the wagons and the people and stuff.
Does everyone think my case on Voltaire is bad? I notice it didn't make it into any of the summaries.
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Soft deadline then? When?
I don't mind yuma's proposal of next Wednesday night. I imagine the usual suspects are going to pretty much ignore it though.
Frisk, please say stuff about how you feel about the wagons and the people and stuff.
Does everyone think my case on Voltaire is bad? I notice it didn't make it into any of the summaries.
I think your case on him is horrible I think my case on him is far better
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I'm not sure I quite get the soft-deadline suggestion. Are we trying to actually lynch someone by then or not? If not, then I think people will be unable to really pretend as though it's a real deadline and act the same way.
It reminds me of when you try to play poker with jellybeans instead of money. You can pretend it's the same game, but the stakes just aren't the same, and it's the stakes that really matter.
I might really be missing something though. Can you explain a bit more, yuma?
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To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying they are sketchy entirely because they voted for a different reason. I'm saying they are sketchy because they seemed to have jumped on him for no reason, and then backed off without explaining. Not only till just recently did glooble actually comment on that, and If you saw my response, I still wasn't happy with it.
OK, fair enough.
It was a mess because it grew incredibly quickly and died for no reason. I thought he was scummy; the wagon was a mess for the reasons why it formed and disbanded, myself excluded; I can believe Yuma was being scummy, then vote for him thus participating in the wagon, without participating for the reasons the others were, which I disagree with. Yuma is allowed to be defensive; he probably shouldn't have exploded though. He was way too concerned he was going to die from that wagon and "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it" is not a good defense.
Yeah, I don't buy this. You can say it was a mess that it disbanded for what seemed like no reason to you -- that is OK. But you think it was a mess that it grew quickly? You thought yuma was being scummy, and others may have felt the same. While you might exclude yourself because you know your role, the rest of us don't have that luxury. From our point of view, this is pure hypocrisy. You are saying people are suspicious for doing exactly what you did.
Being concerned with dying is not a scumtell. Nobody wants to die, not even vanilla townies. I don't fully remember the posts from that time, but yuma has gone on record as saying that he did not express himself at all in the way you suggest he is. You are mischaracterizing him.
First off let me say I dont know that O is town; I dont know what you know. He has become civil and I am able to deal with him now but that doesn't mean hes actually contributed. He has said nothing of value enough for anyone to have a read on him, imo. But that doesn't mean it is completely wrong for town to want another town dead. If that town is contributing poorly, somehow disrupting the game, and being a bad townie, then it is quite fathomable to want another townie dead. Contribution is paramount and O hasn't provided any.
I bolded the relevant parts. You said that you were voting for him because of his playstyle, not because you thought he was scum. The implication is that either you think he is townie or you have no read on him. If you thought he was scum, that would certainly be a reason to vote for him. You said that wasn't the reason, ergo you don't think he looks particularly scummy. And then you say you would like to see him dead.
Do you not see what is wrong with that?
If a townie is being a really bad townie, the better attitude is to want them to play better, not for them to die.
In any case, O is not being particularly helpful, but he is far from being a hindrance. You are mischaracterizing his play as well.
I was on the ehunt wagon. I was on it cause I thought he was being scummy. I am linked to it and anyone can reread and see it. Not trying to distance myself from anything; no regrets. That being said, my point was that the ehunt wagon didn't really ever amount to anything and I dont think it has any value. Thats all.
Why doesn't it have value? If ehunt is scummy, he should be suspected. If he is scum, he should be lynched. The wagon has value in that way. Maybe you want it written off as worthless because you were on the wagon and he's town?
This isn't what I am trying to accomplish. I dont think we both mean the same thing when I say wagon, so let me be perfectly clear. By wagon, I mean to say a group of people that voted for a particular person for some shared reason or over a shared period of time. We have already had these wagons. I am not attempting to make ANOTHER yuma wagon, or an ehunt wagon, or an O wagon. What i'm trying to do is find out if we kill ehunt, or yuma, or O, which one of the wagons that has ALREADY HAPPENED will provide the most information if its target is dead. Lets say we decide to kill yuma because it would provide the most valuable information; then I'm not nearly as concerned with the people that helped vote to kill (for the sake of flipping his card) as the people on the earlier wagons. It is impossible to find scum day 1. I want to make day 2 as informed as possible and "trying to figure out the most informative lynch" is precisely the way to do it. In fact, it bothers me that you are so against the idea of trying to gain as much information as possible. Kinda scummy to me. Vote: eHalcyon
That is certainly what I mean by "wagon". I don't see how there could be another definition. And I'm saying that those wagons aren't all that informative because they are weak day one wagons. The wagons that are most informative will be the wagon that leads to a lynch today and the wagons that form day 2 (and onward) based on today's activity (and subsequent activity). All this examination of "which early day 1 wagons will be informative on flip" is useless. NONE OF THEM are informative.
On the other hand, by trying to select a lynch based on what will be most informative, you give yourself (and anyone who joins you) a gift-wrapped excuse for why you lynched that player -- "for info". You are trying to get info from an uninformative early day 1 wagon in exchange for the USEFUL info to be gathered from the actual lynch.
Your suggestion does not make day 2 more informed. It makes it less informed. The way to make day 2 more informed is to SCUMHUNT, not to try to guess at what is informational. The latter is akin to talking theory all day long and complaining about how RVS is impossible.
Earlier I was just commenting for the sake of discussion, but now I am eagerly awaiting your response.
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Ok, here we go...4. Grujah - still my top candidate. He has two substantive posts I found - the one voting for me for "playing just how I always play" and an analysis of everyone's metas, which would be such an easy way for scum to get in a long post without forming any opinions.
12. O - strong town read.
I'm with you all the way on Grujah. In fact, my vote is already on him. We have some time yet, so I'm gonna keep it there. But, coming up so close to the deadline, I'd really go with most lynches.
What? Could you please explain your read on O? I don't get a town vibe from him at all.
and now, mine
1. Ftl: I'm Ok with lynching him, I guess. Not optimal, though
2. Voltgloss: Looking pretty town
3. Eevee: I could lynch him
4. Grujah: PRIMARY LYNCH.
5. Insomniac: Looks ok, I guess. Would lynch him though
6. Glooble: I would also lynch him, but I wan to see an explanation first
7. Dsell: Would lynch him to.
8. Jotheonah: looks town
9. Young Nick: poor guy.
10. Voltaire: I would lynch him.
11. Axxle: Would lynch him too.
12. O: SECONDARY LYNCH
13. Cayvie: looking townish, but also scummy. meh, no read
14. Shraeye: Would lynch
15. Cuzz: no read
16. Yuma: meh, idk
17. igbtennis: no read
18. TheMunch: looks pretty ok, but I would still lynch him
19. Morgrim7: I would totally lynch him
20. EHalcyon: TERTIARY LYNCH A i'm ok with lynching him and he already has a wagon
21. Watno
22. Galzria
23. Captain_Frisk: not participating much, which isn't like him at all. very odd. scummy even TERTIARY LYNCH B
24. ehunt TERTIARY LYNCH C " eHal
25. ashersky: no read
Morgim is being a little less crazy than usual, but none of this makes sense anyway. To sort out his list:
Town reads:
2. Voltgloss: Looking pretty town
8. Jotheonah: looks town
Null reads:
9. Young Nick: poor guy.
13. Cayvie: looking townish, but also scummy. meh, no read
15. Cuzz: no read
16. Yuma: meh, idk
17. igbtennis: no read
21. Watno
22. Galzria
25. ashersky: no read
"Looks OK but I would lynch him":
1. Ftl: I'm Ok with lynching him, I guess. Not optimal, though
5. Insomniac: Looks ok, I guess. Would lynch him though
"I would lynch him":
3. Eevee: I could lynch him
6. Glooble: I would also lynch him, but I wan to see an explanation first
7. Dsell: Would lynch him to.
10. Voltaire: I would lynch him.
11. Axxle: Would lynch him too.
14. Shraeye: Would lynch
18. TheMunch: looks pretty ok, but I would still lynch him
19. Morgrim7: I would totally lynch him
Scum reads:
4. Grujah: PRIMARY LYNCH.
12. O: SECONDARY LYNCH
20. EHalcyon: TERTIARY LYNCH A i'm ok with lynching him and he already has a wagon
23. Captain_Frisk: not participating much, which isn't like him at all. very odd. scummy even TERTIARY LYNCH B
24. ehunt TERTIARY LYNCH C " eHal
Town reads are fine, I guess. Doesn't give much reasoning.
Null reads are fine too, although the comment on cayvie is... weird.
Seems a bit contradictory on ftl and Ins, more so on Ins.
The next section is... OK.
Scum reads all look opportunistic to me.
If it were anyone else I would find it scummy. Of course, in this case I just find it Morgrim.
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One day Morgrim will be scum, and we're all going to die painful deaths.
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Also: come back to the shraeye wagon, it's lovely this time of day.
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At the people who think I am being helpful:
I mostly disagree. I actually decided before game start that I would be less obsessive with this game than I was in MIII and MVI. I am not taking any notes and I won't be compiling vote history. I just can't afford the RL time to do that.
Not only that -- until the recent back-and-forth with Munchy, I have mostly been sitting on the side without taking much of a position. The reason is that I haven't really had an opinion on the proceedings. They all just look like general Day 1 "Accuse ALL the players" spats and wagons. None of them looked interesting to me.
Much's "which wagon would be informative?" question seemed like a bad idea to me (for reasons already described) so I commented on it. The discussion has grown, so this is an issue I can actually take a position on.
So I don't think I was being helpful before. I think this discussion is productive though, and I'd be interested in others' thoughts on the matter.
To address another current event -- I don't think CF's suggestion is terrible. We might lose out on the actual wagon, but all the lists do indicate players' positions.
I still don't think CF's suggestion is good. That sort of info helps scum figure out which townies need to die (those who most people trust) and which ones can be set up to die (those who people suspect most).
Also, I have mostly null reads and I'm sure most people are in the same boat, so full list rankings are not actually that informative.
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Dammit, there goes my theory that eHalc is pretending to be helpful to make people think he's town but really isn't because he's scum. time to reread someone elses posts.
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My town reads are still O and cayvie -- general instinct, can't know for sure. I just get town vibe from them.
Although my vote is still on him, I am fairly neutral about jo. Eh, Unvote.
I had a town read on Watno for his catch on jo, but I retract it now after recalling a similar MVI situation. Watno is null read again.
I'm suspicious of TheMunch. It seems to me he has mischaracterized several players now, in an effort to make them seem scummier -- yuma, O, and myself now as well (I was never against trying to gain info -- my position was that his method would not gain info). Possibly he is just misinterpreting, but that's quite a few instances now. So, he is suspicious.
Town read on Axxle. His response in #957 looks genuine and scumhunty.
Very slight town read on ehunt, for not jumping down CF's throat. In Conspiracy Theorist mode, CF could be scum and ehunt could be scumbuddy trying to calm people down before they all lynch his partner.
Null read on everyone else. Volt is interesting because of his maybe-case on me, but I reserve judgement until he makes it.
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Vote Count 1.15
shraeye (3) -- Axxle, ftl
ehunt (2) -- Eevee, Jotheonah
O (1) -- shraeye
Glooble (1) -- yuma
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Morgrim7
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
Captain_Frisk (2) -- Watno, Voltaire
eHalcyon (2) -- Voltgloss, TheMunch
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
cayvie (1) -- Young Nick
Not Voting (8 ) -- Cuzz, Dsell, Galzria, ashersky, Grujah, ibgtennis, O, eHalcyon
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
MORE CLARIFICATION: It was asked whether the list of possible roles is exhaustive. The answer is that the list is between 90% and 100% exhaustive. I am leaving myself a bit of room here, simply because some roles may have been combined with others, or tweaked in some way, or given additional powers that somehow cause them to fall outside of the realm of what's listed here.
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Man, just doing math in my head, and realized there's probably a bare minimum of six scum (one six-player scumteam) in this setup, and possibly as many as ten (with multiple teams and a SK and a cult or something).
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Man, just doing math in my head, and realized there's probably a bare minimum of six scum (one six-player scumteam) in this setup, and possibly as many as ten (with multiple teams and a SK and a cult or something).
If there's a cult, it might start off with few scum and the expectation that it will grow. :|
cayvie, who do you find scummy right now?
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Man, just doing math in my head, and realized there's probably a bare minimum of six scum (one six-player scumteam) in this setup, and possibly as many as ten (with multiple teams and a SK and a cult or something).
If there's a cult, it might start off with few scum and the expectation that it will grow. :|
cayvie, who do you find scummy right now?
Ooh.
Disappointingly, I don't have any particularly strong day 1 scumreads.
I tend to give newbies to the forum the benefit of the doubt, but your case on TheMunch has some merit.
shraeye... acted weird in a way that's difficult to interpret.
I do not find ehunt scummy, like a lot of people do.
I don't find Morgrim scummy either.
I don't have any reads strong enough for me to want to lynch them over a lurker, basically.
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I don't know how I feel about being one of Morgrim's only 2 town reads in a town of 25.
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My town reads are still O and cayvie -- general instinct, can't know for sure. I just get town vibe from them.
Although my vote is still on him, I am fairly neutral about jo. Eh, Unvote.
I had a town read on Watno for his catch on jo, but I retract it now after recalling a similar MVI situation. Watno is null read again.
I'm suspicious of TheMunch. It seems to me he has mischaracterized several players now, in an effort to make them seem scummier -- yuma, O, and myself now as well (I was never against trying to gain info -- my position was that his method would not gain info). Possibly he is just misinterpreting, but that's quite a few instances now. So, he is suspicious.
Town read on Axxle. His response in #957 looks genuine and scumhunty.
Very slight town read on ehunt, for not jumping down CF's throat. In Conspiracy Theorist mode, CF could be scum and ehunt could be scumbuddy trying to calm people down before they all lynch his partner.
Null read on everyone else. Volt is interesting because of his maybe-case on me, but I reserve judgement until he makes it.
I'm having a big WIFOM problem right now because it kinda seems to me like the people who make mistakes and mischaracterize people and draw attention to themselves on D1 tend to be town. Scum just does not need to put their necks out there like that. They only need to make as few waves as possible (that doesn't mean being quiet or avoiding suspicion completely though!) and let the town blow up on itself. So when I see people making "mistakes" or making large mischaracterizations (with a few exceptions, I guess), it reads somewhat town to me. Not good town, not good play, but these just tend to be the kind of people who get themselves lynched and then flip town.
As a concrete example, in MIV, when I was mafia, Theorel misrepresented me a couple of times (he was town) on D1. I REALLY turned this on him, though to be honest I would have done the same as town too. The point is, he was exaggerating my words a bit (even though his read was totally right!) and he turned up town. So the "obvious" scummy reads are just not always right.
Even saying this may be bad for the meta, but these are my thoughts. So because of this, I teeend to think that Shraeye and TheMunch and maybe some others in similar situations are not great lynches.
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Ok eHalcyon, I think I see the problem. I think we agree more than you lead on initially, so I'll give you an unovte for now and try to explain myself again. Let me start off by saying, while I like the back and forth, as a new player I cant help but feel it is incredibly dangerous. I fear explaining the same thing in 3 different ways to try to make you understand is only going to end with me getting caught in an unintentional contradiction that I really would rather not get lynched for.
Ok the Yuma wagon. I need to pick a better word than mess. I'm not gonna say mess at all cause that seemed to be part of the confusion. My problem wasn't that it just that it grew quickly, or just that it disbanded for what seened like no reason, it was the combination. I saw a bunch of people jump on him for rolefishing (which as a new player, took me a while to figure out why that was so obvious to everyone else). But then as he was defending himself (the part where I claimed to have become more suspicious of him) thats when everyone backed off of him for an "honest mistake." It is the disparity between me finding his defense suspicious and everyone else completely buying it.
I'm not going to talk about O anymore. I've already conceded it was a noob mistake to let my personal fellings about him as a person and his playstyle affect whether or not I wanted to see him die.
When I talk about the value of the ehunt wagon I'm talking about the value of information to be gained by ehunts death if we look at the wagon. This is when I figured out that I probably agreed with you more than I originally thought. At the end of your post you argue that you dont think there is any informative lynch from day 1; I think I'm coming to that conclusion slower than you are. I am literally saying in all 4 cases that I want there to be information to be gained from the wagons that have formed but when I go over each wagon I seem to come to the conclusion that there wasn't as much conclusive with the wagons as I wanted there to be. This is why yesterday I made the post asking the question (874) if they saw any wagons with the information that would be useful to us on D2.
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unvote, forgot to bold
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Also: come back to the shraeye wagon, it's lovely this time of day.
Roomy enough for two, apparently.
Man, just doing math in my head, and realized there's probably a bare minimum of six scum (one six-player scumteam) in this setup, and possibly as many as ten (with multiple teams and a SK and a cult or something).
If there's a cult, it might start off with few scum and the expectation that it will grow. :|
cayvie, who do you find scummy right now?
I put the minimum at 6 non-town-alligned players (5 mafia and 1 (nerfed) cult leader is, I think, the smallest setup that matches the information we have/might be balanced).
I'm having a big WIFOM problem right now because it kinda seems to me like the people who make mistakes and mischaracterize people and draw attention to themselves on D1 tend to be town. Scum just does not need to put their necks out there like that. They only need to make as few waves as possible (that doesn't mean being quiet or avoiding suspicion completely though!) and let the town blow up on itself. So when I see people making "mistakes" or making large mischaracterizations (with a few exceptions, I guess), it reads somewhat town to me. Not good town, not good play, but these just tend to be the kind of people who get themselves lynched and then flip town.
[snip]
Even saying this may be bad for the meta, but these are my thoughts. So because of this, I teeend to think that Shraeye and TheMunch and maybe some others in similar situations are not great lynches.
This is the way I think as well. You'll note that I have both of them down as "town reads" in my post.
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big V/LA coming up, although maybe I will have internet after all.
unvote. I think it's odd that Voltaire wrote up a summary of the game that didn't include the fact that a couple folks were voting for him. I decided it's town-odd instead of scum-odd. When you're summarizing a game, you maybe don't include votes you think are minor or not part of the major story-arc. If you're scum and someone's voting for you, you know for a fact that that vote is really important to the plot of the game and worthy of being included in a summary. If you're town, I'd think you'd still think the votes on you were important, just because everyone's narrative of the game revolves around themselves a little, but at least there's a chance you could think the vote was unimportant enough that you could leave it out of a summary. Of course Voltaire could be WIFOMing me here, but I think it's a situation where it's genuinely difficult to think ahead - if Voltaire's scum, then in a matter of minutes, he calculated an answer to the question "what it would feel like to be summarizing this game if I were a townie" that I found convincing.
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FWIW Munch, I personally believe that looking at interactions D1, and then proceeding after an informational lynch, is the best philosophy for D1. I don't buy all the "You have to SCUMHUNT" arguments. The whole point is that without information (ie. Flips), there IS NOTHING to scumhunt. Scum isn't going to jump up and down going "Here I an! Look here! Hey, I'm scum over here!". Thus to me, the value of D1 is associations, and actions against "perceived" scumslips (real or otherwise, we won't know until later with... Wait for it... Alignment flips!).
In the end, I absolutely think an "informative" lynch is the best lynch to pursue D1. And I don't accept the argument that "but if everybody says it was for information, it's no longer informational", because the same can be said about any meathod "But if people were just voting him because he seemed scummy, or did scummy thing X, then there's nothing to analyze!". A lynch (and reveal) is going to do what it does, no matter how you come about the target. For me, I like lurkers, and informational lynches.
On the lurker side, Vote: Grujah. C'mon drinkin' buddy. I know you're busy, but you can do better than this.
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Galz, you really need to cure your phone's obsession with meathods.
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Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
Can you explain why you need ehunt to say something before you can tell us the reasons you vote him for? You did already vote him, so the reasons should be there already.
Can you finally answer this, TheMunch?
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This isn't what I am trying to accomplish. I dont think we both mean the same thing when I say wagon, so let me be perfectly clear. By wagon, I mean to say a group of people that voted for a particular person for some shared reason or over a shared period of time. We have already had these wagons. I am not attempting to make ANOTHER yuma wagon, or an ehunt wagon, or an O wagon. What i'm trying to do is find out if we kill ehunt, or yuma, or O, which one of the wagons that has ALREADY HAPPENED will provide the most information if its target is dead. Lets say we decide to kill yuma because it would provide the most valuable information; then I'm not nearly as concerned with the people that helped vote to kill (for the sake of flipping his card) as the people on the earlier wagons. It is impossible to find scum day 1. I want to make day 2 as informed as possible and "trying to figure out the most informative lynch" is precisely the way to do it. In fact, it bothers me that you are so against the idea of trying to gain as much information as possible. Kinda scummy to me. Vote: eHalcyon
What do you mean by "for the sake of flipping his card"? That's not the information we're aiming for in a lynch.
Regarding why I pointed out joth's post about O being town: I think it might have been a scumslip, but I'm not convinced. His response (talking from O's perspective) makes it less likely. Still it's a point of suspicion for me, but not enough to merit a vote on its own.
Regarding ensuring we get a lynch: I agree that Frisks idea doesn't make much sense, but I'd be fine with going along what yuma suggested. It would require everyone participating though.
From Robz response about the role list I'd conclude there is no lyncher. Anyone disagreeing?
After reading through Frisks posts again, I have seen a lot of anecdotes from past games and saying nothing, plus a strange suggestion. I think my vote is in a good place with him.
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the lurker side, Vote: Grujah. C'mon drinkin' buddy. I know you're busy, but you can do better than this.
What can I do for you guys? Comment on what? I got a few spare hours right now.
Ashersky who did seem scummy seem less on re-scim, he did jump on two wagons (O and shareye, and shareye was one of misguided wagons ever) but I don't find it as bad as it seemed right away, he seems as scummy as any other who voted on shareye based on sarcasm. Sigh.
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the lurker side, Vote: Grujah. C'mon drinkin' buddy. I know you're busy, but you can do better than this.
What can I do for you guys? Comment on what? I got a few spare hours right now.
Ashersky who did seem scummy seem less on re-scim, he did jump on two wagons (O and shareye, and shareye was one of misguided wagons ever) but I don't find it as bad as it seemed right away, he seems as scummy as any other who voted on shareye based on sarcasm. Sigh.
I just wanna see some thought from you. You're a good townie when you're involved, but a better scum when allowed to stay behind the scenes.
Unvote
I actually have a few better places for my vote (I'll put together my case later today) - but I don't trust anybody in the shadows, especially when I know they can be more helpful. So talk! :P
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Galz, you really need to cure your phone's obsession with meathods.
My "mobile" speaks British, not American.
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but a better scum when allowed to stay behind the scenes.
What's this based on?
Morg's RMMM2?
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The only two games where I was not town were that one and Murder Mansion where I was "traitorish" but I think in Murder Mansion I was one of the most active ones.
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The only two games where I was not town were that one and Murder Mansion where I was "traitorish" but I think in Murder Mansion I was one of the most active ones.
I take it you don't agree with a lynch-lurkers policy?
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but a better scum when allowed to stay behind the scenes.
What's this based on?
Morg's RMMM2?
Umm... Me derping at 6:00 am with no coffee?
But I bet it's true!
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The only two games where I was not town were that one and Murder Mansion where I was "traitorish" but I think in Murder Mansion I was one of the most active ones.
I take it you don't agree with a lynch-lurkers policy?
I do agree with lurker lynch as a policy as a last resort, as it is generally better than no lynch (no-lynches in MVIII for example screwed town). Lurker lynch kills either a .. "sheep" townie which can be a liability for town, or a lurking scum. Both lurker town and lurker scum are awful strategies, and I don't think that scum is more likely to lurk (on more depends on players, actually) but if no viable lynch is found, I think that here possible benefits outweight the negative side.
One thing, also. Murder Mansion was specific for me, though. I had until day 2 to switch to a team of my choice (I didn't know how many and which teams there are, but only mafia or town was viable, though). So, I could afford to scumhunt and if we actually did hit scum, I'd choose town. But I could get on scum side, if I see that town is going bad. So, not our typical scum.
In RMMM2 I think I wasn't lurking, I was there, I was just staying at side and .. poking? Something like that.
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I'm not sure I quite get the soft-deadline suggestion. Are we trying to actually lynch someone by then or not? If not, then I think people will be unable to really pretend as though it's a real deadline and act the same way.
It reminds me of when you try to play poker with jellybeans instead of money. You can pretend it's the same game, but the stakes just aren't the same, and it's the stakes that really matter.
I might really be missing something though. Can you explain a bit more, yuma?
Think of it as playing with jellybeans, but who ever has the least amount of jellybeans at the end of the game has to pay $100. So the stakes aren't the same, but they are still high.
The reason I suggested it, is because often soft deadlines are ignored. But if the majority of us treat it as a hard deadline and then treat the remaining time as the next day we can look back at that vote count and the "previous day's" posts, analyze them and then potentially form new wagons on people who helped cause a no lynch. I think a minimum of participation before the soft lynch is either a vote, preferably on one of 2 major wagons, or a solid explanation as to why neither wagon works (but again, often a solid explanation isn't feasible Day 1, so this is often a bad townie excuse or a scummy excuse). I think we should install the soft deadline if we have at least half the town agreeing to it. I haven't counted but I would guess about 10 people have suggested it would be an ok idea.
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Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
Can you explain why you need ehunt to say something before you can tell us the reasons you vote him for? You did already vote him, so the reasons should be there already.
Can you finally answer this, TheMunch?
Since you aren't that clear with what "this" means, I can take it to mean one of two things. First, you might want a response to what eHalc said, regarding not thinking it was very fleshed out. Well all I can say is I have never tried to be decieving when it comes to reasons why I vote for people. You can see this if you go back and reread but it seems like you haven't. In fact I said it in 325. But as to the arguments I was agreeing to, those were voltgloss in 362, Eevee in 391, and voltgloss again in 420. I found myself agreeing with these for the most part but it was during the Shraeye wagon kerfuffle so it could be hard to miss.
Now the second thing you might be asking me to answer is I why I had to wait. To me, I had noticed these posts listed above (the ones I claim as the reasons why ehunt was scummy), and had already stated my reasons for voting him in the first place. Unlike jotheonah, I wasn't going to clutter up ehunts ramblings (which he prob could have put all in one post).
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I think we should install the soft deadline if we have at least half the town agreeing to it. I haven't counted but I would guess about 10 people have suggested it would be an ok idea.
Then I should clarify that although I think it is unlikely to work, I am fine trying it.
I do agree with lurker lynch as a policy as a last resort, as it is generally better than no lynch (no-lynches in MVIII for example screwed town). Lurker lynch kills either a .. "sheep" townie which can be a liability for town, or a lurking scum. Both lurker town and lurker scum are awful strategies, and I don't think that scum is more likely to lurk (on more depends on players, actually) but if no viable lynch is found, I think that here possible benefits outweight the negative side.
I disagree that scum and town are equally likely to lurk, if that's what you're saying, but I appreciate the reply.
ibgtennis and Captain_Frisk, who are your lynch candidates? Why?
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[...]
This isn't what I am trying to accomplish. I dont think we both mean the same thing when I say wagon, so let me be perfectly clear. By wagon, I mean to say a group of people that voted for a particular person for some shared reason or over a shared period of time. We have already had these wagons. I am not attempting to make ANOTHER yuma wagon, or an ehunt wagon, or an O wagon. What i'm trying to do is find out if we kill ehunt, or yuma, or O, which one of the wagons that has ALREADY HAPPENED will provide the most information if its target is dead. Lets say we decide to kill yuma because it would provide the most valuable information; then I'm not nearly as concerned with the people that helped vote to kill (for the sake of flipping his card) as the people on the earlier wagons. It is impossible to find scum day 1. I want to make day 2 as informed as possible and "trying to figure out the most informative lynch" is precisely the way to do it. In fact, it bothers me that you are so against the idea of trying to gain as much information as possible. Kinda scummy to me. Vote: eHalcyon
What do you mean by "for the sake of flipping his card"? That's not the information we're aiming for in a lynch.
If you had been keeping up with the argument, that is the whole point. The argument is once someone is dead, and they have flipped their card (probably the most important part), then we can re-examine the wagons and see what can be deduced. We can only deduce things if the person whose card was flipped had people against him that we can examine (I address what I think we are looking for in my post 874)
Another point on wagon hunting, I propose the following reasoning. Lets say we kill a wagon and that person flips either town or scum. Obviously there are more intricacies with the players power role, but lets keep it simple. So if they flip town, we'd want to re-examine the wagon and look at the people who jumped on very quickly after the wagon formed. If they flip scum, we would be looking for at (fixed for clarity) people that defended him.
Open question: what wagons do people feel have both elements to them (people who jumped on quickly after the wagon formed, and a strong defense for them by a small number of people) so that regardless of whether or not they flip town, we can deduce good information?
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I think we should install the soft deadline if we have at least half the town agreeing to it. I haven't counted but I would guess about 10 people have suggested it would be an ok idea.
Then I should clarify that although I think it is unlikely to work, I am fine trying it.
I do agree with lurker lynch as a policy as a last resort, as it is generally better than no lynch (no-lynches in MVIII for example screwed town). Lurker lynch kills either a .. "sheep" townie which can be a liability for town, or a lurking scum. Both lurker town and lurker scum are awful strategies, and I don't think that scum is more likely to lurk (on more depends on players, actually) but if no viable lynch is found, I think that here possible benefits outweight the negative side.
I disagree that scum and town are equally likely to lurk, if that's what you're saying, but I appreciate the reply.
ibgtennis and Captain_Frisk, who are your lynch candidates? Why?
I said that on f.ds I didn't notice that scum is more likely to do so. We had similar amount of both (somebody correct em if I am wrong).
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TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
Also, why do you think someone's card is the most important information we'll get when he dies. In fact, we don't even know we'll get it. Anyway, i'd say the most important piece of information revealed on death will be the alignment of the player who died.
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TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
Also, why do you think someone's card is the most important information we'll get when he dies. In fact, we don't even know we'll get it. Anyway, i'd say the most important piece of information revealed on death will be the alignment of the player who died.
I believe you two are talking past each other. I believe Munch was referring to their Alignment when he said "card".
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TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
At the time I probably thought the reasons were more fleshed out (oh look I even said that I did). And would be waiting to respond to those reasons, which I probably felt I was being called out for at the time. I have now been explicit so there is no confusion.
Also, why do you think someone's card is the most important information we'll get when he dies. In fact, we don't even know we'll get it. Anyway, i'd say the most important piece of information revealed on death will be the alignment of the player who died.
I didn't know that the cards would be flipped. This is just what everyone is saying so I assumed thats the way it worked on this forum. And when i talked about card flip, I was talking about player alignment. I had forgotten we had also gotten cards (well I hadn't but had not realized this would cause confusion) from dominion. It was a simple mistake; I've only ever played mafia IRL where your alignment is the card you got in some form (diamonds are mafia or something along those lines).
PPE: Galz is right.
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TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
At the time I probably thought the reasons were more fleshed out (oh look I even said that I did). And would be waiting to respond to those reasons, which I probably felt I was being called out for at the time. I have now been explicit so there is no confusion.
So, you voted someone for reasons you thought were fleshed out, but didn't check what those reasons were?
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TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
At the time I probably thought the reasons were more fleshed out (oh look I even said that I did). And would be waiting to respond to those reasons, which I probably felt I was being called out for at the time. I have now been explicit so there is no confusion.
So, you voted someone for reasons you thought were fleshed out, but didn't check what those reasons were?
Other way around. I voted for reasons, and agreed with what was brought up. Fleshed out, to me, implies known to the group. I think the misunderstanding is that in my naivete I assumed other people notice exactly the same things I do and see them in the same light I do. This became very evident after my reread when I realize that these points were brought up during the Shraeye wagon. People were probably more focused on that, didn't notice the posts I referenced, and then when I said "oh yeah this is fleshed out" people like you understandably go "wat" if they hadn't caught those same posts or agreed with them on the first time through. I knew what the reasons were, but I mistakenly thought others did too.
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But eHalc explicitely asked you what you thought were the fleshed out reasons?
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But eHalc explicitely asked you what you thought were the fleshed out reasons?
Thats why I linked the relevent articles which I assumed were fleshed out.
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But eHalc explicitely asked you what you thought were the fleshed out reasons?
Thats why I linked the relevent articles posts (fixed for clarity) which I assumed were fleshed out.
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You didn't until way later. What you posted was:
Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
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You didn't until way later. What you posted was:
Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
I have already responded to that. I consider this matter closed.
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Yes, you answered that, but the answer didn't explain anything. I followed up with
TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
to which you answered
TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
At the time I probably thought the reasons were more fleshed out (oh look I even said that I did). And would be waiting to respond to those reasons, which I probably felt I was being called out for at the time. I have now been explicit so there is no confusion.
which doesn't make any sense. Why didn't you explicitely say what you thought were the reasons against ehunt right when asked for the first time?
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Watno, I don't see anything confusing about what TheMunch has said. What are you hoping to gain from this?
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Work has been a bit crazy, but I just caught up the past day or so. I will be V/LA this weekend, but I will definitely get a post in today before I ship off and def a post sunday night...saturday might be unrealistic
A few notes:
-reading from pages, 33-40, I'd like to say that I'm super happy that the doom and gloom tone that took over has dissipated. This is my first time, and I want this to be fun.
-In speaking of fun, I want to say that, Munch, I totally agree about previous games. I also acknowledge their importance to this game, and how they invariably play a role, but this game is crazy enough...I don't have the time or interest to read through previous games (taking notes here is hard enough, as is). In the end, i also think people overvalue previous games' importance. My guess is that everybody here is pretty smart and conscious of not wanting to conform to previous playing styles. So yeah, we shouldn't end talk of previous games, but let's make sure it's related and clear for those who might not understand as well
-Welcome to the game Young Nick
-Personally, I have a town read on Munch. I don't buy the fact that his explanations of previous wagons were roundabout, hedgy, and manipulative. they read as genuine and town-like to me. I think he is really just trying to analyze what's gone on and jumpstart the group, and for that I have respect. When I come back later tonight to answer Voltaire's question about who I vote to lynch, I think his analysis will be useful. Plus, I got love for a fellow newb.
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I personally find TheMunch quite confusing, possibly even to the point of scumminess. However, forcing him to argue semantics and explain every single wording he has used doesn't really seem fair either. Still, keeping an eye on you Munch!
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I'm not forcing TheMunch to argue semantics.
This was TheMunch's original post i didn't understand:
Which reasons from other people do you agree with that you think ehunt is suspicious? I don't think it's been very well fleshed out at all.
ehunt is currently discussing a bunch of the talking points so I'll give a response if necessary after all that has been said.
I asked:
Can you explain why you need ehunt to say something before you can tell us the reasons you vote him for? You did already vote him, so the reasons should be there already.
His answer, which I dont think answers the question:
Now the second thing you might be asking me to answer is I why I had to wait. To me, I had noticed these posts listed above (the ones I claim as the reasons why ehunt was scummy), and had already stated my reasons for voting him in the first place. Unlike jotheonah, I wasn't going to clutter up ehunts ramblings (which he prob could have put all in one post).
So i followed up with:
TheMunch, how does saying "This are the reasons: List" provide more clutter than "I can't say my reasons now because ehunt is talking about them"?
His answer to that, which is pretty much the same as what caused eHalc's question and my original one
At the time I probably thought the reasons were more fleshed out (oh look I even said that I did). And would be waiting to respond to those reasons, which I probably felt I was being called out for at the time. I have now been explicit so there is no confusion.
So, feel free to explain to me how that makes sense and where he answers why he couldn't state his reasons right when he was asked, but had to wait for ehunt to talk about them.
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So, feel free to explain to me how that makes sense and where he answers why he couldn't state his reasons right when he was asked, but had to wait for ehunt to talk about them.
He realized he never actually stated the reasons, others had posted them, he wanted to wait to see if ehunt gave a proper reply? I mean, you can disagree that that is the right course of action, or whether or not it is scummy, or poor town play, or whatever, but it seems clear enough to me.
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And exactly that is where I don't get it. Why wait until ehunt gives a reply with saying what he's supposed to reply to?
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Watno is seeming pretty scummy to me. If he was scum and me not scum, if I were in his shoes id definitely be looking at the new player being incredibly confusing (which I very well might be guilty of) and try to catch him making a slip. Then knowing the new player isn't scum, try to pull the trigger. I dont like it. Seems like hes fishing for a mistake I cant make. Vote: watno
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Ok eHalcyon, I think I see the problem. I think we agree more than you lead on initially, so I'll give you an unovte for now and try to explain myself again. Let me start off by saying, while I like the back and forth, as a new player I cant help but feel it is incredibly dangerous. I fear explaining the same thing in 3 different ways to try to make you understand is only going to end with me getting caught in an unintentional contradiction that I really would rather not get lynched for.
Discussion is how we move forward though. It's no more dangerous than anything else. The alternative is to say nothing at all, for fear of being misconstrued.
Ok the Yuma wagon. I need to pick a better word than mess. I'm not gonna say mess at all cause that seemed to be part of the confusion. My problem wasn't that it just that it grew quickly, or just that it disbanded for what seened like no reason, it was the combination. I saw a bunch of people jump on him for rolefishing (which as a new player, took me a while to figure out why that was so obvious to everyone else). But then as he was defending himself (the part where I claimed to have become more suspicious of him) thats when everyone backed off of him for an "honest mistake." It is the disparity between me finding his defense suspicious and everyone else completely buying it.
That wasn't clear from what you said before, but OK. Still, if lots of people accept yuma's reasoning, it's almost guaranteed that at least some, if not most, of those people are town. I don't see how there is an issue over the wagon growing and then disbanding. It happens all the time, especially on day 1.
I'm not going to talk about O anymore. I've already conceded it was a noob mistake to let my personal fellings about him as a person and his playstyle affect whether or not I wanted to see him die.
OK, I guess.
When I talk about the value of the ehunt wagon I'm talking about the value of information to be gained by ehunts death if we look at the wagon. This is when I figured out that I probably agreed with you more than I originally thought. At the end of your post you argue that you dont think there is any informative lynch from day 1; I think I'm coming to that conclusion slower than you are. I am literally saying in all 4 cases that I want there to be information to be gained from the wagons that have formed but when I go over each wagon I seem to come to the conclusion that there wasn't as much conclusive with the wagons as I wanted there to be. This is why yesterday I made the post asking the question (874) if they saw any wagons with the information that would be useful to us on D2.
You're misunderstanding again. I believe the most valuable information will come from real discussion about player behaviour and the final lynch wagon (both who is on it, and who is not, and their reasons for their choice). The early wagons that end up disbanded don't provide any info. Trying to squeeze info from those wagons isn't productive. There is definitely info from day 1, but your suggestion is not the way to get that info. The final lynch is the most informative, and there should be reasons for that beyond "the flip should be informative".
FWIW Munch, I personally believe that looking at interactions D1, and then proceeding after an informational lynch, is the best philosophy for D1. I don't buy all the "You have to SCUMHUNT" arguments. The whole point is that without information (ie. Flips), there IS NOTHING to scumhunt. Scum isn't going to jump up and down going "Here I an! Look here! Hey, I'm scum over here!". Thus to me, the value of D1 is associations, and actions against "perceived" scumslips (real or otherwise, we won't know until later with... Wait for it... Alignment flips!).
Look at interactions and try to find odd, scummy behaviour. There is plenty to scumhunt in how people respond and react. Absolutely I agree that "the value of D1 is associations, and actions against "perceived" scumslips (real or otherwise, we won't know until later with... Wait for it... Alignment flips!)."
But my point is that we will get all that anyway. People vote based on associations, actions and reactions, and that gives us info. The most important info is the one on the LYNCH. If you decide to lynch to try to eke out info from early RVS wagons, you are giving up the info on the lynch wagon in exchange for weak info on an early stalled wagon.
In the end, I absolutely think an "informative" lynch is the best lynch to pursue D1. And I don't accept the argument that "but if everybody says it was for information, it's no longer informational", because the same can be said about any meathod "But if people were just voting him because he seemed scummy, or did scummy thing X, then there's nothing to analyze!". A lynch (and reveal) is going to do what it does, no matter how you come about the target. For me, I like lurkers, and informational lynches.
This is equivocation. Pursuing an "informative" lynch is a clinical reason. Pursuing a lynch because you think someone was scummy is a useful reason to analyse. "I think this was scummy" gives us associations, reactions, all those things you list as useful to analyse. "I think this will be informative" gives us none of that and neuters the lynch wagon.
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On this Watno thing... I'm confused about it. I was grilling Munchy pretty hard, but Watno seems way more aggressive. I don't know, I can't really be objective about myself.
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On this Watno thing... I'm confused about it. I was grilling Munchy pretty hard, but Watno seems way more aggressive. I don't know, I can't really be objective about myself.
Yeah I would say that is the difference between you and him in the last few posts and the reason why I voted for watno. You were grilling me and had reasons to be doing so and hence why I was trying really hard to be clear with you. But watno just seemed like he wanted to catch me make a slip so he could pull the trigger. I dont like that.
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This watno-munch back and forth is like ten levels of abstraction away from actual content. I hope no one minds if I butt in and change the subject.
I'm up for going along with the soft deadline, after yuma clarified the idea for me. It forces an actual event to take place in this game and gives us something tangible to talk about. I think everyone should try to weigh in on this.
I also think that Captain_Frisk's idea is a not so good idea. He's backed off it for the most part, but even suggesting it in the first place seems fishy to me. It's like he doesn't want to be held accountable for his behavior on D1, or that he isn't following closely enough to decide his vote himself. Scum doesn't have to pay much attention on D1 since they don't have to scumhunt.
Vote: Captain_Frisk
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We seem to like easy wagons. Too bad easy wagons suck.
CF is pretty town atm.
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We seem to like easy wagons. Too bad easy wagons suck.
CF is pretty town atm.
Then start a better one, or I'm going to ragevote you for playstyle.
Why do you think CF is town? Explain.
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I am for the soft deadline too, seems like a good idea to me.
O, I'm curious about why you think C_F seems town.
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We seem to like easy wagons. Too bad easy wagons suck.
CF is pretty town atm.
Then start a better one, or I'm going to ragevote you for playstyle.
Why do you think CF is town? Explain.
You'll get used to him...
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This watno-munch back and forth is like ten levels of abstraction away from actual content. I hope no one minds if I butt in and change the subject.
I'm up for going along with the soft deadline, after yuma clarified the idea for me. It forces an actual event to take place in this game and gives us something tangible to talk about. I think everyone should try to weigh in on this.
I also think that Captain_Frisk's idea is a not so good idea. He's backed off it for the most part, but even suggesting it in the first place seems fishy to me. It's like he doesn't want to be held accountable for his behavior on D1, or that he isn't following closely enough to decide his vote himself. Scum doesn't have to pay much attention on D1 since they don't have to scumhunt.
Vote: Captain_Frisk
You would be accountable for how you ranked people. That's something. I think it's a bad idea, but not necessarily scum-bad.
I'd also argue that it's more important for scum to pay attention, for myriad reasons. Keeping the heat off of themselves, keeping the heat off of buddies. Poking at others to try to stir up a mislynch. Also possibly real scumhunting, if there are multiple scum teams -- very possible in such a big setup.
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We seem to like easy wagons. Too bad easy wagons suck.
CF is pretty town atm.
Then start a better one, or I'm going to ragevote you for playstyle.
Why do you think CF is town? Explain.
Ehunt's play is quite different from the norm and he's been town every other time. I've already suggested Ehunt.
I think CF is town because I don't honestly believe scum CF would propose such a wholly stupid idea. He's not really an attention grabber as scum- I should know, I was scum with him MVIII and MIX.
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I would like to repeat that I think Frisk is a good lynch, but not because of his dayvig idea. He's contributed virtually nothing to the discussion and has taken almost no opinions. He's not helping out the town. This doesn't make him scum, but his meta makes it scream obvscum to me. It's exactly how I've seen him play as scum. That's why I have my vote on him.
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I would like to repeat that I think Frisk is a good lynch, but not because of his dayvig idea. He's contributed virtually nothing to the discussion and has taken almost no opinions. He's not helping out the town. This doesn't make him scum, but his meta makes it scream obvscum to me. It's exactly how I've seen him play as scum. That's why I have my vote on him.
I suppose I'll re-read CF's posts sometime soon.
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I actually really like TheMunch's read on watno. I'm all for sheeping that sauce.
Vote: watno
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I would like to repeat that I think Frisk is a good lynch, but not because of his dayvig idea. He's contributed virtually nothing to the discussion and has taken almost no opinions. He's not helping out the town. This doesn't make him scum, but his meta makes it scream obvscum to me. It's exactly how I've seen him play as scum. That's why I have my vote on him.
I suppose I'll re-read CF's posts sometime soon.
...and not ehunt? interesting..
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We seem to like easy wagons. Too bad easy wagons suck.
CF is pretty town atm.
Then start a better one, or I'm going to ragevote you for playstyle.
Why do you think CF is town? Explain.
Ehunt's play is quite different from the norm and he's been town every other time. I've already suggested Ehunt.
I think CF is town because I don't honestly believe scum CF would propose such a wholly stupid idea. He's not really an attention grabber as scum- I should know, I was scum with him MVIII and MIX.
Thank you.
I personally think ehunt's change in behavior could stem from a concious attempt to behave differently in a big game, thinking it was for the best (see: the whole one-post-a-day debacle). I take it you don't find that a likely possibility?
His theories about the town not sharing information - is that a change from his past self?
I appreciate your help here, I haven't played with ehunt before.
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I did promise elsewhere that my next trip as scum would be amazing, but O is right, not scum this time around.
Guys, we're @ 1012 posts now, and we're not even 1/2 through day 1. We have to do something to actually move the game forward. I think its time to bite the bullet and do a full read. Anyone want to over/under on how long its going to take?
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I would like to repeat that I think Frisk is a good lynch, but not because of his dayvig idea. He's contributed virtually nothing to the discussion and has taken almost no opinions. He's not helping out the town. This doesn't make him scum, but his meta makes it scream obvscum to me. It's exactly how I've seen him play as scum. That's why I have my vote on him.
I agree with this too. I didn't want to bring it up in my vote because I was afraid it would be interpreted as advocating policy lynch (which it's not) and I'll tear my hair out if we start talking about that again.
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I did promise elsewhere that my next trip as scum would be amazing, but O is right, not scum this time around.
Guys, we're @ 1012 posts now, and we're not even 1/2 through day 1. We have to do something to actually move the game forward. I think its time to bite the bullet and do a full read. Anyone want to over/under on how long its going to take?
It took me 2-3 days off-and-on at work, I think. Good luck.
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I would like to repeat that I think Frisk is a good lynch, but not because of his dayvig idea. He's contributed virtually nothing to the discussion and has taken almost no opinions. He's not helping out the town. This doesn't make him scum, but his meta makes it scream obvscum to me. It's exactly how I've seen him play as scum. That's why I have my vote on him.
I suppose I'll re-read CF's posts sometime soon.
...and not ehunt? interesting..
Well, could you expand on this? I thought the main issue with ehunt was his early decision to post one big post a day. I don't have an issue with that at all. I understood it to mean "one post per IRL day" and I said I would do something similar. This was long before role PMs were sent out.
Overall, his play hasn't seemed that different to me. I only played one game with him though, and I don't think I really followed any others.
So in your opinion, how is ehunt behaving now, and how does he usually behave?
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Well, i guess voting is a way to answer a question. I agree the exchange between me and Munch took longer than it needed to, but I don't think just ignoring my question not being answered would have been better.
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I did promise elsewhere that my next trip as scum would be amazing, but O is right, not scum this time around.
Guys, we're @ 1012 posts now, and we're not even 1/2 through day 1. We have to do something to actually move the game forward. I think its time to bite the bullet and do a full read. Anyone want to over/under on how long its going to take?
Do you think the soft deadline would move the game forward?
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I did promise elsewhere that my next trip as scum would be amazing, but O is right, not scum this time around.
Guys, we're @ 1012 posts now, and we're not even 1/2 through day 1. We have to do something to actually move the game forward. I think its time to bite the bullet and do a full read. Anyone want to over/under on how long its going to take?
I think the game is moving forward just fine right now. It should move forward a little more when Volt posts his case on me.
Why not offer your opinion on the recent events involving Watno, TheMunch and myself?
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We seem to like easy wagons. Too bad easy wagons suck.
CF is pretty town atm.
Then start a better one, or I'm going to ragevote you for playstyle.
Why do you think CF is town? Explain.
Ehunt's play is quite different from the norm and he's been town every other time. I've already suggested Ehunt.
I think CF is town because I don't honestly believe scum CF would propose such a wholly stupid idea. He's not really an attention grabber as scum- I should know, I was scum with him MVIII and MIX.
Thank you.
I personally think ehunt's change in behavior could stem from a concious attempt to behave differently in a big game, thinking it was for the best (see: the whole one-post-a-day debacle). I take it you don't find that a likely possibility?
His theories about the town not sharing information - is that a change from his past self?
I appreciate your help here, I haven't played with ehunt before.
he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
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he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
Huh, he hasn't seemed that different to me. But the "usually active" thing doesn't really make a difference to me. He said he would post less before he received his role. Has he been particularly jumpy this game?
OK, fine, I'll re-read ehunt too.
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he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
Huh, he hasn't seemed that different to me. But the "usually active" thing doesn't really make a difference to me. He said he would post less before he received his role. Has he been particularly jumpy this game?
OK, fine, I'll re-read ehunt too.
I agree with O on both counts here. I find Frisk towny, and ehunt at the very least quite different.
If I havent said it yet, I support the soft deadline idea. And I too will be trying to reread this thing to form better opinions.
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The contention on CF (pushed by... Voltaire?) is that he hasn't contributed anything at all and has just laid low all game. So it's worth reading back to check on that, I guess.
I'll re-read sometime over the weekend, I think.
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The contention on CF (pushed by... Voltaire?) is that he hasn't contributed anything at all and has just laid low all game. So it's worth reading back to check on that, I guess.
I'll re-read sometime over the weekend, I think.
Yup, that's my argument. I'll proudly own this (hopeful) wagon. Others are voting for him based on his dayvig idea.
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Thanks, O, for your content on page 41. Opinions and explanations like those are much better than short 1 sentence summaries of situations. That's the town-help that I've been hoping to see from you. Unvote
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Vote Count 1.16
shraeye (3) -- Axxle, ftl
ehunt (1) -- Eevee
Glooble (1) -- yuma
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (3) -- Watno, Voltaire, Cuzz
eHalcyon (1) -- Voltgloss
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
cayvie (1) -- Young Nick
Watno (2) -- TheMunch, jotheonah
Not Voting (9) -- Dsell, Galzria, ashersky, Grujah, ibgtennis, O, eHalcyon, ehunt, shraeye
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Watno kinda reminds me of myself, when I have a subtle idea that I am having trouble getting across, and the more I try to explain it, the more frustrated I get, and the less sense I make to others.
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I'm setting aside time tomorrow for an enormous reread, which unfortunately will take most of the day it seems. My comments on currently building situations are as follows:
Munch-watno.
I'm glad that watno is pursuing ideas, but he's definitely got the wrong target. TheMunch is at times unclear in his posts, but seems to be playing fairly perceptively and I really like his explanation of the informational lynch idea. I think that while sometimes he comes up with an idea that is explained poorly, he tends to re-explain in different words. I treat these words more like clarifications that he adds as he realizes he hasn't been as clear as he could from the start. Others seem to think he's hedging/changing his ideas. But when I read his posts as a whole, it becomes more clear that he's playing quite town-like and keeps getting caught up in storms of misunderstanding.
Munch-eHalcyon. I've gotta be honest, I didn't understand some of the questions and exchanges happening here at first. And then as more blocky posts were exchanged between them with 6 seperate arguments each in its own section, I just started skimming them or skipping completely. I'll look at this harder on reread to make sure I know what's going on but it didn't seem immediately useful at first glance.
yuma's soft-deadline suggestion. I like it. The mad scramble at deadline that occured in MIX just left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I was trying to outspokenly defend ehunt and in my haste kept tripping/flipping words up and making slips and contradictions. O and others jumped at that saying "aha! next target!" until ehunt died and they realized that I was probably town. So mafia killed me. Sorry new players, I'm going to sum this up in a non-past-game-referencing way. When things get frantic at deadlines, it's sooo hard to keep things straight, and make reasonable decisions on voting. It will be 6 times as hard with 25 players (that is our total, right?) It will just be a clustercuss of ideas being screamed around and nobody has a chance of convincing people of anything or reading it as it's going on. On reread during night, we will find that every participant in the discussion was either tunnelling the shit out of an idea, or trying to keep up with multiple conversations and contradicted like crazy. Basically making anyone who joins in a suuuper easy lynch target. So that's a reasonable suggestion to avoid franticness.
CF and his dayvig idea. I like this as well. it replaces the info that lynch wagons have with a forced ranking of every other player (I assume one won't be allowed to put themselves on the list). This would actually be harder for scum to manipulate I think, as there are more town voices, and it's not as easy to push the wrong direction as a regular lynch might. Here's some super cool information we could get: some people here are outspoken about their lynch targets. An enterprising scum may rank misguided people higher trying to cause that problem, but once that scum dies, we will really gain a lot of information as we look not only at their list, but also the suspects of each person on their list. The major problem with this idea is that everybody would have to be on board for it to work. And some people seem very opposed to it.
I've gotta catch a bus; I'll probably save my next post for the long reread unless something really jumps out at me as demanding a response.
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People ok with soft deadline, sorry if I missed anyone
1. yuma
2. glooble
3. ftl
4. voltaire
5. frisk
6. ehunt
7. cuzz
8. dsell
9. eevee
10. shraeye
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You missed me.
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why do we keep calling Frisk's idea a dayvig idea? Did someone claim dayvig?
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why do we keep calling Frisk's idea a dayvig idea? Did someone claim dayvig?
Galz (I think) pointed out that it is functionally equivalent of handing over dayvig powers to someone voluntarily.
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CF and his dayvig idea. I like this as well. it replaces the info that lynch wagons have with a forced ranking of every other player (I assume one won't be allowed to put themselves on the list). This would actually be harder for scum to manipulate I think, as there are more town voices, and it's not as easy to push the wrong direction as a regular lynch might. Here's some super cool information we could get: some people here are outspoken about their lynch targets. An enterprising scum may rank misguided people higher trying to cause that problem, but once that scum dies, we will really gain a lot of information as we look not only at their list, but also the suspects of each person on their list. The major problem with this idea is that everybody would have to be on board for it to work. And some people seem very opposed to it.
It would actually be easy for scum to manipulate. Say they wait for most others to put out their lists. They notice that townie Bob seems moderately suspicious to many people. Now scum can push at a Bob lynch while not stepping out of line.
With that information available, they can also tailor their "suspicions" to match the town consensus. Again, no need to offer their own opinions.
They'll also see who is most trusted and therefore most important to NK.
There are merits to doing it, but I don't think they outweigh the drawbacks. The exercise would be more fruitful after day 1 anyway. I don't have enough info to rank everyone.
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why do we keep calling Frisk's idea a dayvig idea? Did someone claim dayvig?
Galz (I think) pointed out that it is functionally equivalent of handing over dayvig powers to someone voluntarily.
except dayvig doesn't end a day.
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2 hours and 10 minutes, and thats alot of skimming at the end.
PPE - AND 21 new posts.
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why do we keep calling Frisk's idea a dayvig idea? Did someone claim dayvig?
Galz (I think) pointed out that it is functionally equivalent of handing over dayvig powers to someone voluntarily.
I don't really get how it's like that. One person doesn't have all the power.
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why do we keep calling Frisk's idea a dayvig idea? Did someone claim dayvig?
Galz (I think) pointed out that it is functionally equivalent of handing over dayvig powers to someone voluntarily.
except dayvig doesn't end a day.
Well it's not perfect obviously.
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why do we keep calling Frisk's idea a dayvig idea? Did someone claim dayvig?
Galz (I think) pointed out that it is functionally equivalent of handing over dayvig powers to someone voluntarily.
I don't really get how it's like that. One person doesn't have all the power.
Then we can just call if "CF's idea" if you'd like.
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I'm not hung up on it, but I do want to know why Galz (and everyone else) is equating with a dayvig. It still kinda seems like I'm missing something.
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I'm not hung up on it, but I do want to know why Galz (and everyone else) is equating with a dayvig. It still kinda seems like I'm missing something.
you didn't pick up when we start doing things like calling wharf a moat followed by a worker village and a smithy next turn that we like making analogies?
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@joth:
Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
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Thanks Cuzz, I definitely misread that the first time and thought we were talking about something totally different!
I thought the proposal was to average the lists and then all agree to vote for the person who averaged the most scummy. That seems like a much better idea than agreeing to sheep the person who averages the most townie.
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I was thinking "give your vote to" meant "vote for"
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@Young_Nick
Here's my summary of notes that I took after this reread. The serious amount of time it took to reread is the primary reason for staying away. The weekend start meant I was behind from the getgo, and each time you say "meh - i'll read it later" it gets even longer.
Dsell RVS's Morgrim
Lots of people jump on him for it:
Additional Vote is identified
igbtennis wagon started for lurking
we had a mini shraeye wagon for a scum slip
cayvie let us know that she'll be unvoting off of wagons
yuma thought this was strange - and a wagon started on him for it
we dicked around for a while - O started picking up votes for not participating
eevee confirms presence of cult
we goofed off for a while
the munch called O a bad person
we had a discussion of being civil
shraeye called a bunch of people idiots
young nick arrives on the scene after VLA. Surprisingly nobody mentioned this at all except for RobZ's intro post
We goofed around some more. I suggested an alternative way to break the majority rule. Nobody was interested
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Not done catching up and on my phone but I think eHunt is buddying with Voltaire here, maybe even scumbuddies?
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Not done catching up and on my phone but I think eHunt is buddying with Voltaire here, maybe even scumbuddies?
If this is a joke, it's hilarious.
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@Frisk - will you be posting anything else from your re-read?
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I think of the wagons we've seen so far - I prefer:
Vote: shraeye for getting angry and calling people idiots.
I've been angry enough to get personal with Mafia 2 times:
1. I was SUPER PISSED @ SFS in Mafia IV. I don't think I actually said anything mean, and I think because I didn't expect to win anyway, it didn't really bug me.
2. I got mad and and made some inappropriate comments in MX and had to be mod-chided for them.
The commonality? My getting lynched was going to cost me the game.
Getting lynched in Day 1 in M7? That was fine, because I knew it wasn't game over and as town it was pretty much expected.
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Thanks, Frisk. That's actually quite interesting. I'll have to do some thinking.
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Other people I didn't like:
ehunt: actively trying to prevent information dispersal. I don't like it, but it feels too agressive to be scummy
TheMunch getting personal: I previously found O's play frustrating as well. The difference between this and shraeye though is that this was isn't cracking under pressure.
Voltaire: Insomniac's post #509 pretty much sums up my thoughts here.
Lurkers: igbtennis, ashersky, (young_nick has an excuse), Cuzz, Glooble, Morgrim7
Regarding the yuma wagon: Yuma is too smart for that to be scummy behavior.
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I think of the wagons we've seen so far - I prefer:
Vote: shraeye for getting angry and calling people idiots.
I've been angry enough to get personal with Mafia 2 times:
1. I was SUPER PISSED @ SFS in Mafia IV. I don't think I actually said anything mean, and I think because I didn't expect to win anyway, it didn't really bug me.
2. I got mad and and made some inappropriate comments in MX and had to be mod-chided for them.
The commonality? My getting lynched was going to cost me the game.
Getting lynched in Day 1 in M7? That was fine, because I knew it wasn't game over and as town it was pretty much expected.
Sorry, you misread me there. I'll accept voting for me for calling people idiots. But I wasn't angry. I found the whole affair hilarious.
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Post counts by reference (as of whenever I started)
Post Count Relative to Average
17. igbtennis 8 -79%
9. Young Nick 15 -62%
25. ashersky 15 -62%
15. Cuzz 16 -59%
6. Glooble 17 -56%
19. Morgrim7 17 -56%
11. Axxle 23 -41%
1. Ftl 24 -38%
4. Grujah 24 -38%
23. Captain_Frisk 27 -31%
12. O 29 -26%
21. Watno 29 -26%
2. Voltgloss 34 -13%
5. Insomniac 37 -5%
7. Dsell 42 8%
14. Shraeye 47 21%
18. TheMunch 47 21%
3. Eevee 49 26%
16. Yuma 51 31%
24. ehunt 56 44%
10. Voltaire 58 49%
20. EHalcyon 61 56%
13. Cayvie 66 69%
robz 69 77%
22. Galzria 71 82%
8. Jotheonah 82 110%
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Oh - and I didn't like watno either, but that's a gut feel.
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Other people I didn't like:
ehunt: actively trying to prevent information dispersal. I don't like it, but it feels too agressive to be scummy
TheMunch getting personal: I previously found O's play frustrating as well. The difference between this and shraeye though is that this was isn't cracking under pressure. Voltaire: Insomniac's post #509 pretty much sums up my thoughts here.
Lurkers: igbtennis, ashersky, (young_nick has an excuse), Cuzz, Glooble, Morgrim7
Regarding the yuma wagon: Yuma is too smart for that to be scummy behavior.
Also, I got a bonus laugh when you said I cracked under pressure. Was I under pressure? I don't recall such a time :)
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I was thinking "give your vote to" meant "vote for"
Whoa, that's what I thought too.
OK, CF's proposal looks weirder to me now. Not sure what to think of it now.
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Post counts by reference (as of whenever I started)
Post Count Relative to Average
17. igbtennis 8 -79%
9. Young Nick 15 -62%
25. ashersky 15 -62%
15. Cuzz 16 -59%
6. Glooble 17 -56%
19. Morgrim7 17 -56%
11. Axxle 23 -41%
1. Ftl 24 -38%
4. Grujah 24 -38%
23. Captain_Frisk 27 -31%
12. O 29 -26%
21. Watno 29 -26%
2. Voltgloss 34 -13%
5. Insomniac 37 -5%
7. Dsell 42 8%
14. Shraeye 47 21%
18. TheMunch 47 21%
3. Eevee 49 26%
16. Yuma 51 31%
24. ehunt 56 44%
10. Voltaire 58 49%
20. EHalcyon 61 56%
13. Cayvie 66 69%
robz 69 77%
22. Galzria 71 82%
8. Jotheonah 82 110%
How do these percentages work? What does a negative percentage mean? Is "perfectly average" 0%? 50%?
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All right guys - now I'm all mafia fired up. Let's do some talkin!
So you don't like my elect a lyncher idea.
How about this? In the discussion for ZM2 - people seemed to think that plurality lynch actually helped town. Is this the consensus?
If so - we can actually implement it ourselves, even if it isn't mod enforced. (ie - we define a deadline in advance of lynch - and then agree that we'll all vote the leader at that time).
We still get wagons (albeit smaller ones).
Do we all agree that no lynch is bad? Do we think that any scum are going to be so scummy that 13 of us (12 if you count the secret / double vote) will vote for them?
I kindof doubt it. MXIII really showed how bad no lynch is - and I think we should find some way to make sure it doesn't happen, even if it means that some of us end up voting for people that wouldn't be our #1 choice.
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Post counts by reference (as of whenever I started)
Post Count Relative to Average
17. igbtennis 8 -79%
9. Young Nick 15 -62%
25. ashersky 15 -62%
15. Cuzz 16 -59%
6. Glooble 17 -56%
19. Morgrim7 17 -56%
11. Axxle 23 -41%
1. Ftl 24 -38%
4. Grujah 24 -38%
23. Captain_Frisk 27 -31%
12. O 29 -26%
21. Watno 29 -26%
2. Voltgloss 34 -13%
5. Insomniac 37 -5%
7. Dsell 42 8%
14. Shraeye 47 21%
18. TheMunch 47 21%
3. Eevee 49 26%
16. Yuma 51 31%
24. ehunt 56 44%
10. Voltaire 58 49%
20. EHalcyon 61 56%
13. Cayvie 66 69%
robz 69 77%
22. Galzria 71 82%
8. Jotheonah 82 110%
How do these percentages work? What does a negative percentage mean? Is "perfectly average" 0%? 50%?
(Your Post Total - Average Vote Total) / Average Vote Total.
For reference, there were 1014 posts, the average was 39.
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The median was 35.5
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Lurkers: igbtennis, ashersky, (young_nick has an excuse), Cuzz, Glooble, Morgrim7
Do people feel like I'm lurking? I was V/LA for the first 3 days of the game, and I'd probably be in the lower half of posters anyway just based on style, so going by absolute # of posts makes it look that way I guess.
I'll happily respond to any questions directed at me, and give my opinion when I have one worth sharing, but I'm not gonna bloat the thread just to avoid being called out for low post count. It's plenty bloated.
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Thanks, Frisk. That's actually quite interesting. I'll have to do some thinking.
You'll note that based on the timestamps, that post was written before you asked me to post, so it wasn't actually a response to you, unless you think I whip out a decent sized post in 30 seconds.
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All right guys - now I'm all mafia fired up. Let's do some talkin!
So you don't like my elect a lyncher idea.
How about this? In the discussion for ZM2 - people seemed to think that plurality lynch actually helped town. Is this the consensus?
If so - we can actually implement it ourselves, even if it isn't mod enforced. (ie - we define a deadline in advance of lynch - and then agree that we'll all vote the leader at that time).
We still get wagons (albeit smaller ones).
Do we all agree that no lynch is bad? Do we think that any scum are going to be so scummy that 13 of us (12 if you count the secret / double vote) will vote for them?
I kindof doubt it. MXIII really showed how bad no lynch is - and I think we should find some way to make sure it doesn't happen, even if it means that some of us end up voting for people that wouldn't be our #1 choice.
This I could get behind, for sure. We could use Yuma's soft deadline as our point? Seems reasonable. It's actually sorta similar to Yuma's plan, I think.
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Lurkers: igbtennis, ashersky, (young_nick has an excuse), Cuzz, Glooble, Morgrim7
Do people feel like I'm lurking? I was V/LA for the first 3 days of the game, and I'd probably be in the lower half of posters anyway just based on style, so going by absolute # of posts makes it look that way I guess.
I'll happily respond to any questions directed at me, and give my opinion when I have one worth sharing, but I'm not gonna bloat the thread just to avoid being called out for low post count. It's plenty bloated.
Not really any worse than me, but you did call out other people for not participating in #758.
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Lurkers: igbtennis, ashersky, (young_nick has an excuse), Cuzz, Glooble, Morgrim7
Do people feel like I'm lurking? I was V/LA for the first 3 days of the game, and I'd probably be in the lower half of posters anyway just based on style, so going by absolute # of posts makes it look that way I guess.
I'll happily respond to any questions directed at me, and give my opinion when I have one worth sharing, but I'm not gonna bloat the thread just to avoid being called out for low post count. It's plenty bloated.
Not really any worse than me, but you did call out other people for not participating in #758.
True enough. Do as I say, not as I do and all that.
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Lurkers: igbtennis, ashersky, (young_nick has an excuse), Cuzz, Glooble, Morgrim7
Do people feel like I'm lurking? I was V/LA for the first 3 days of the game, and I'd probably be in the lower half of posters anyway just based on style, so going by absolute # of posts makes it look that way I guess.
I'll happily respond to any questions directed at me, and give my opinion when I have one worth sharing, but I'm not gonna bloat the thread just to avoid being called out for low post count. It's plenty bloated.
You do quite well in my "substantive posts" count if I give you credit for V/LA (which is totally reasonable). You're not lurking in my book.
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This I could get behind, for sure. We could use Yuma's soft deadline as our point? Seems reasonable. It's actually sorta similar to Yuma's plan, I think.
The pitfall I see with it is that if plurality lynches were really better than majority, then this would be commonly accepted town plans.
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This I could get behind, for sure. We could use Yuma's soft deadline as our point? Seems reasonable. It's actually sorta similar to Yuma's plan, I think.
The pitfall I see with it is that if plurality lynches were really better than majority, then this would be commonly accepted town plans.
That's not necessarily true, mod's aren't going to make a rule thats bad for mafia and good for town, its up to town to agree or disagree on implementing there own strategies and theoretically the mod should have deadlines in place that make it bad to discuss and implement such a strategy if it would be detremental to one or more teams. (in this case if it is strictly better for the town its strictly worse for the mafia so the deadline the mod imposes should be short enough that in order to implement such a strategy costs the town the time they would have getting information about people in other ways)
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One problem (that's not really a problem at all) of Frisk's plan is that some people may be strongly opposed to this idea or refuse to vote. I struggle to see how that's pro-town though, and if people are really really against it, well that might be a scum tell right there.
It's not a perfect plan but it's a really really good idea. I'm at least willing to go with it as an experiment.
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One problem (that's not really a problem at all) of Frisk's plan is that some people may be strongly opposed to this idea or refuse to vote. I struggle to see how that's pro-town though, and if people are really really against it, well that might be a scum tell right there.
It's not a perfect plan but it's a really really good idea. I'm at least willing to go with it as an experiment.
To be more specific, I'm talking about everyone voting for whoever has a plurality at the soft deadline.
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My thought - which could be used in conjunction with yuma's soft-deadline idea and/or CF's plurality lynch idea - is for everyone, when they vote, to not only give their "primary" vote but also a secondary and a tertiary vote. I.e., their top three candidates they are comfortable lynching. Some people have already done this (Morgrim leaps immediately to mind, using this exact terminology: I recall seeing others, or at least people saying "vote X and I'd also be ok with lynching Y").
I think if everyone does this, it should help us see which wagon(s) are actually viable and help channel towards a workable lynch. I plan to do this when I post my case re: eHalcyon (I do expect eHalc to remain my primary vote, but I'll give secondary and tertiary as well).
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I'm not saying that the mods would make it a rule, but rather that town would just always do it.
Just like it's generally accepted that lurking is bad, no lynching is bad, mass claiming day 1 is a bad idea etc.
This I could get behind, for sure. We could use Yuma's soft deadline as our point? Seems reasonable. It's actually sorta similar to Yuma's plan, I think.
The pitfall I see with it is that if plurality lynches were really better than majority, then this would be commonly accepted town plans.
That's not necessarily true, mod's aren't going to make a rule thats bad for mafia and good for town, its up to town to agree or disagree on implementing there own strategies and theoretically the mod should have deadlines in place that make it bad to discuss and implement such a strategy if it would be detremental to one or more teams. (in this case if it is strictly better for the town its strictly worse for the mafia so the deadline the mod imposes should be short enough that in order to implement such a strategy costs the town the time they would have getting information about people in other ways)
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One problem (that's not really a problem at all) of Frisk's plan is that some people may be strongly opposed to this idea or refuse to vote. I struggle to see how that's pro-town though, and if people are really really against it, well that might be a scum tell right there.
It's not a perfect plan but it's a really really good idea. I'm at least willing to go with it as an experiment.
To be more specific, I'm talking about everyone voting for whoever has a plurality at the soft deadline.
Yeah, obviously we need a majority of people to agree to it in the first place, and then once the "deadline" passes, it will be interesting to see what happens.
For example: I may agree with it in principal now, but if it turns out that I'm selected, you can bet I'm not going to self vote.
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My thought - which could be used in conjunction with yuma's soft-deadline idea and/or CF's plurality lynch idea - is for everyone, when they vote, to not only give their "primary" vote but also a secondary and a tertiary vote. I.e., their top three candidates they are comfortable lynching. Some people have already done this (Morgrim leaps immediately to mind, using this exact terminology: I recall seeing others, or at least people saying "vote X and I'd also be ok with lynching Y").
I think if everyone does this, it should help us see which wagon(s) are actually viable and help channel towards a workable lynch. I plan to do this when I post my case re: eHalcyon (I do expect eHalc to remain my primary vote, but I'll give secondary and tertiary as well).
Now we're getting somewhere.
I'll be V/LA this weekend, so I'll probably plop down my "triple" vote sometime today and see what we've got on Monday.
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So -
I Vote: YES to the Yumafrisk voting amendment of 2012.
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I too will agree to the plurality lynch method.
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I'm great with the plurality method. I highly doubt we can do worse than our usual D1 lynch.
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I'm in, tentatively. But lending my vote is still lending my vote, and I won't vote for someone I have a very high town read on. However, I think it's highly unlikely that will be a problem.
I want to hear Volt's eHalc case before I plop down my 3 though.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Plurality_voting
One potential problem with plurality voting is that, if town votes are scattered across a bunch of wagons, scum concentrating their votes can effectively decide the lynch by themselves.
But I see that as less of a problem Day 1 than it could be late in the game. On Day 1, it poses a quandary for scum - should they cluster votes today to force lynch on a townie, knowing that they're going to be scrutinized as a potential scumbloc for the rest of the game?
Recommendation: if we go with the plurality-lynch approach, we should only count apparently-a-doublevoter-Axxle's vote once. No offense Axxle.
Could someone remind me when exactly is the soft-deadline yuma proposed?
eHalc case is definitely going to be posted this evening.
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I propose an amendment to the plurality method where a votecount of at least 8 is necessary. For instance, if we made that soft-deadline now, Frisk or shraeye (am I counting right?) would get lynched with only 3 votes on them. I hardly like lynching any candidate if only 3 people are willing to vote for them.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Plurality_voting
One potential problem with plurality voting is that, if town votes are scattered across a bunch of wagons, scum concentrating their votes can effectively decide the lynch by themselves.
But I see that as less of a problem Day 1 than it could be late in the game. On Day 1, it poses a quandary for scum - should they cluster votes today to force lynch on a townie, knowing that they're going to be scrutinized as a potential scumbloc for the rest of the game?
Recommendation: if we go with the plurality-lynch approach, we should only count apparently-a-doublevoter-Axxle's vote once. No offense Axxle.
Could someone remind me when exactly is the soft-deadline yuma proposed?
eHalc case is definitely going to be posted this evening.
Yeah that's a huge liability for scum down the road. HUGE. The town would probably have lynched a townie anyway.
Also I do kinda second jo's point...I really really hate the idea of voting someone I have a strong town read on (which is not really anyone at the moment), but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
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I propose an amendment to the plurality method where a votecount of at least 8 is necessary. For instance, if we made that soft-deadline now, Frisk or shraeye (am I counting right?) would get lynched with only 3 votes on them. I hardly like lynching any candidate if only 3 people are willing to vote for them.
You have 4 now I think because of mine, but yes, I agree.
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I propose an amendment to the plurality method where a votecount of at least 8 is necessary. For instance, if we made that soft-deadline now, Frisk or shraeye (am I counting right?) would get lynched with only 3 votes on them. I hardly like lynching any candidate if only 3 people are willing to vote for them.
You have 4 now I think because of mine, but yes, I agree.
Oh, I was single-counting Axxle a la Voltgloss.
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So -
I Vote: YES to the Yumafrisk voting amendment of 2012.
I am willing to discuss both; however, my whole point in having the soft deadline is so that we can start wagons after the soft deadline on people who refused to help town get to a lynch. Look back at MVIII (sorry guys old game reference) Day 1 we no lynched. There were a handful of people more or less responsible for that, especially those that didn't vote. Galz and O jump to mind. Galz started another wagon and did try to get it to a lynch, but it wasn't soon enough, whereas O (remember, he was scum!) did nothing, he just argued how stupid it was to lynch Lekkit because he was obvtown (well of course he was obvtown to O, O was mafia).
But if we had been able to recognize how that worked, we could have put O up for lynch day 2 for preventing the day 1 lynch. But instead I was dumb and decided hey, let's try Lekkit again!
Back to this game.... if we get to the soft deadline and don't have a lynch. My focus is going to be on the handful of players who prevented the lynch from occurring, either by 1. not voting; 2. starting a new wagon really late or 3. keeping their vote on a player who was extremely unlikely to be lynched.
Plurality I feel is too easy for mafia to manipulate. But perhaps my suggestion is manipulatable as well.
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Could someone remind me when exactly is the soft-deadline yuma proposed?
Wednesday 11:59 pm forum time
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Without rolefishing, are we all agreed that axxle is the double voter? I mean - its pretty clear that its followed him, and he does have the Axxle / Axxle2 meta....
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Without rolefishing, are we all agreed that axxle is the double voter? I mean - its pretty clear that its followed him, and he does have the Axxle / Axxle2 meta....
jotheonah pointed out the only other possiblity seems to be a secret voter trying to "frame" him. I think that's unlikely, but it is possible.
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Without rolefishing, are we all agreed that axxle is the double voter? I mean - its pretty clear that its followed him, and he does have the Axxle / Axxle2 meta....
jotheonah pointed out the only other possiblity seems to be a secret voter trying to "frame" him. I think that's unlikely, but it is possible.
Wouldn't axxle just say "someone is framing me?"
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Without rolefishing, are we all agreed that axxle is the double voter? I mean - its pretty clear that its followed him, and he does have the Axxle / Axxle2 meta....
jotheonah pointed out the only other possiblity seems to be a secret voter trying to "frame" him. I think that's unlikely, but it is possible.
Wouldn't axxle just say "someone is framing me?"
Mmmmm that's too far over the line to "rolefishing" for me.
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I support Frisk's plan.
Partially because it means I can participate in the lynch without actually voting for the lynchee.
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I rescind my non-vote on Frisk, as he's back to what I think of as helpful Frisk.
I would be okay with plurality lynch, but I fear this gives us an excuse to not actually pursue wagons/lynches to the fullest. If we can get to a lynch the normal way (half +1), I think we should try, and that plurality/etc. type lynching be only a last resort.
To put it another way, if we coast to the soft deadline with plurality in mind, maybe some aren't playing to the fullest. It could result in thinking like "hey, cayvie's got the most votes for now, and I'm okay with that, so that's cool." I think that's anti-town in a big way and won't help anyone. We are building in a perfect excuse for people to coast/not-vote once 8 (or however many is decided to be required) do choose someone. Sure, we can look at the non-voters, or the voted-when-it-was-easy-ers, but I fear that could be a large number, since 17 are not required to get the plurality if you go with the magic number 8.
So with that in mind, I guess I could support it, but only if it doesn't change the way we approach the game. And I'm not sure we can keep it from doing that. Six, seven, eight votes is significantly less than 13, when you are talking about such a small sample. It sounds like faction-lynching, and anti-town, to me.
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I rescind my non-vote on Frisk, as he's back to what I think of as helpful Frisk.
When have you ever experienced "helpful" frisk?
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If we do indeed decide to do this, here's my three votes. Probably gone this weekend, but I might have time to poke in. I don't have strong scum reads on anyone at the moment. This was tricky.
Primary Vote: ashersky (for lurking in plain sight while calling on others not to lurk, and for being on the terrible shraeye wagon)
Secondary Vote: jotheonah (He's squirmed a lot with only 1 vote on him, tried to drive ehunt wagon, thinks lynching lurkers is a bad idea...some of it seems like a difference in playstyles, some of it feels like a scum vibe)
Third Vote: Watno (I haven't gotten substance from him, his tunneling of Munch was bizarre, plus "gut feel" from earlier)
No vote on Frisk anymore as he's changed his behavior for the better. Doesn't make him town, but it takes him from scum to neutral in my eyes.
PPE: Ugh. Don't make me change my mind.
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I rescind my non-vote on Frisk, as he's back to what I think of as helpful Frisk.
When have you ever experienced "helpful" frisk?
Good point, helpful Frisk was MX. Vote: Frisk.
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If we do indeed decide to do this, here's my three votes. Probably gone this weekend, but I might have time to poke in. I don't have strong scum reads on anyone at the moment. This was tricky.
Primary Vote: ashersky (for lurking in plain sight while calling on others not to lurk, and for being on the terrible shraeye wagon)
Secondary Vote: jotheonah (He's squirmed a lot with only 1 vote on him, tried to drive ehunt wagon, thinks lynching lurkers is a bad idea...some of it seems like a difference in playstyles, some of it feels like a scum vibe)
Third Vote: Watno (I haven't gotten substance from him, his tunneling of Munch was bizarre, plus "gut feel" from earlier)
No vote on Frisk anymore as he's changed his behavior for the better. Doesn't make him town, but it takes him from scum to neutral in my eyes.
PPE: Ugh. Don't make me change my mind.
I will mention that my in plain sight lurking has been predicated on me moving my entire family/household overseas at the moment. In a hotel now, even. At least I'm still contributing content when I can, unlike some others who are here. You even mention some.
You know me fairly well as compared to others I think. Other than posting less, do I seem different?
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If we do indeed decide to do this, here's my three votes. Probably gone this weekend, but I might have time to poke in. I don't have strong scum reads on anyone at the moment. This was tricky.
Primary Vote: ashersky (for lurking in plain sight while calling on others not to lurk, and for being on the terrible shraeye wagon)
Secondary Vote: jotheonah (He's squirmed a lot with only 1 vote on him, tried to drive ehunt wagon, thinks lynching lurkers is a bad idea...some of it seems like a difference in playstyles, some of it feels like a scum vibe)
Third Vote: Watno (I haven't gotten substance from him, his tunneling of Munch was bizarre, plus "gut feel" from earlier)
No vote on Frisk anymore as he's changed his behavior for the better. Doesn't make him town, but it takes him from scum to neutral in my eyes.
PPE: Ugh. Don't make me change my mind.
I will mention that my in plain sight lurking has been predicated on me moving my entire family/household overseas at the moment. In a hotel now, even. At least I'm still contributing content when I can, unlike some others who are here. You even mention some.
You know me fairly well as compared to others I think. Other than posting less, do I seem different?
Blergh. Unvote. You're very right, I forgot about your V/LA. I don't like anyone on the shraeye wagon but it doesn't make people scum on its own.
I got nothin' right now.
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Vote Count 1.17
shraeye (4) -- Axxle, ftl, Captain_Frisk
ehunt (1) -- Eevee
Glooble (1) -- yuma
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (3) -- Watno, Cuzz, ashersky
eHalcyon (1) -- Voltgloss
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
cayvie (1) -- Young Nick
Watno (2) -- TheMunch, jotheonah
Not Voting (9) -- Dsell, Galzria, Grujah, ibgtennis, O, eHalcyon, ehunt, shraeye, Voltaire
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Plurality voting is reasonable. It's sort of what happens anyway. Somebody is at like L-3 and there's a few hours left until deadline, and people vote for that guy just to avoid no lynch. This would just be making it more formal, to make it work for the huge town that we have. I doubt it'll make anyone vote for someone they have a huge town read on.
Voltaire, I'm pretty sure Axxle's accusation of buddying up from a while back was serious, he messed up the quote but if you click on the link to the post you'll see it. I still don't buy the ehunt case, but it wasn't a joke, I think.
I'm sort of glad we're not lynching all lurkers because I've dropped down to lurker status, have posted less recently and won't be around to post much over the weekend. Still reading everything. All this voting talk didn't change any of my scumreads/townreads. I keep waiting for Volt's eH case. I bet it'll be disappointing after all this time.
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unvote. I think it's odd that Voltaire wrote up a summary of the game that didn't include the fact that a couple folks were voting for him. I decided it's town-odd instead of scum-odd. When you're summarizing a game, you maybe don't include votes you think are minor or not part of the major story-arc. If you're scum and someone's voting for you, you know for a fact that that vote is really important to the plot of the game and worthy of being included in a summary. If you're town, I'd think you'd still think the votes on you were important, just because everyone's narrative of the game revolves around themselves a little, but at least there's a chance you could think the vote was unimportant enough that you could leave it out of a summary. Of course Voltaire could be WIFOMing me here, but I think it's a situation where it's genuinely difficult to think ahead - if Voltaire's scum, then in a matter of minutes, he calculated an answer to the question "what it would feel like to be summarizing this game if I were a townie" that I found convincing.
Realized I never really "answered" this, and since I think it's what Axxle was referring to, I just want to say that I only ever had 2 votes on me at once at that point, which was true of lots of people, and nobody seemed to be talking about me without voting (ie Grujah) and so it didn't seem like it was a big part of the narrative. Now that Frisk agrees with Insomniac, and Morgrim says he was ok with a lynch on me, I guess a summary might need to include a mini-Voltaire wagon? Eh.
(obligatory "hey axxle u found scumpair D1!")
PPE: I see ftl thinks Axxle was seriously responding to this, so I guess it's good I posted this.
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Ok, I still have like 5 more pages to read, but I must respond to something.
Most of my "would lynch" reads are town reads.
The deadline is coming up, and its going to take a lot of effort to lynch. You people being the mafia authority in my life, I'm willing to support a lynch for even someone I think is town if you people think is best.
Scum reads are just my prefrence lynch.
The people who I would like to lynch. That I think could be scum.
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FoS: Cayvie.*
In a spate of downtime, I decided to do a quick readthrough of all 45 pages**, focused on a random person. Cayvie's posted 68 times in the thread, including pre-game. It's amazing how many of those are one-liners, witticisms, and jokes. The only real substance was a quick line-by-line run down of the entire town (with little to say) and that odd thing about her special problem with being on town lynches. She noted, then un-noted, the SSS (Sarcastic Shraeye Scumslip), had a few posts in the decline of civility portion of the game, and that's about it. Oh, and she liked being able to lynch townies (I assume, given what she's told us before) without being on the wagon:
I support Frisk's plan.
Partially because it means I can participate in the lynch without actually voting for the lynchee.
What gives? Your rep is as a fantastic player, I think. Or am I off there?
*: Not changing my vote, though.
**: I think I'll keep trying to do these, where I read all the posts of one player separately. I mean, I guess we all do that, but instead of linearly, as we go, doing it all at once. I'll just keep picking players at random.
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Guys, I'm not trying to lurk, but I'm in Japan now, so cut me some slack. I participate as much as possible.
I am totally ok with the Primary/secondary/tertiary lynch. But even reading those five pages, I have no new reads. :(
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Tired, going to sleep, will re-read in morning.
I do agree with plurality lynch plan.
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Daily check-in here. Still haven't started.
I am seriously considering just going from page 30 or so to save myself the RVS BS. Can someone point me towards the post from eevee about the Cultist thang?
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Oh, I just went over my role pm again because I always miss stuff and this time was no different.
I have mod-confirmed information that there is a faction in this game that can recruit people. I would guess we are probably dealing with a cult then. Would be pretty sweet to get the cult leader early, those things tend to be pretty powerful..
For some reason I'm under the impression Robz doesn't like having two scum teams, so I'm thinking it's one big scum team, a cult and maybe a serial killer.
@TheMunch
I understand listening us talking about our previous games can be frustrating, but you are probably pretty alone with that opinion. Previous games are very important, and faking certain behavior is harder than you think. Also keep it cool, O is okay. :) No need to get personal, just a game!
I don't explicitly know there is a cult. I know there exists a faction that has night talk, and that something* would happen if I got recruited into it.
*I know what this something is, but it's not relevant here.
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FoS: Cayvie.*
In a spate of downtime, I decided to do a quick readthrough of all 45 pages**, focused on a random person. Cayvie's posted 68 times in the thread, including pre-game. It's amazing how many of those are one-liners, witticisms, and jokes. The only real substance was a quick line-by-line run down of the entire town (with little to say) and that odd thing about her special problem with being on town lynches. She noted, then un-noted, the SSS (Sarcastic Shraeye Scumslip), had a few posts in the decline of civility portion of the game, and that's about it. Oh, and she liked being able to lynch townies (I assume, given what she's told us before) without being on the wagon:
I support Frisk's plan.
Partially because it means I can participate in the lynch without actually voting for the lynchee.
What gives? Your rep is as a fantastic player, I think. Or am I off there?
*: Not changing my vote, though.
**: I think I'll keep trying to do these, where I read all the posts of one player separately. I mean, I guess we all do that, but instead of linearly, as we go, doing it all at once. I'll just keep picking players at random.
I am not sure what my rep is, really! If it's as a fantastic player, I will be pleased, obviously.
Think about it, though; I don't know what anyone's alignment is. I've stated it's bad for me if I lynch a townie. I mean, if there's like fifteen minutes to deadline and someone's at L-1, I'll hammer, but otherwise, I don't plan on being on the lynch day 1.
Also, I started a wagon on yuma. And stated a few townreads. I kinda don't think detailed analysis is that useful day 1, and I'm not the best at it anyway.
Oh, I kept my vote on shraeye after noting that I'd misread his post, because I thought he was playing weirdly.
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I thought Volt was posting his case on me tonight.
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he said maybe Sunday.
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Argh. Family commitments (including late-night difficulties with our two-year-old and us leaving the house this morning) are going to prevent my case from going up until this evening. I'm taking the computer with me to work on the case so I can post it as soon as I get home tonight.
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he said maybe Sunday.
eHalc case is definitely going to be posted this evening.
But I guess it's tonight then. Sure. :P
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Man this place is deeeeeaaaaaaad today.
Random question for cayvie as I'm rereading: Did you ever really explain that weird vote/unvote on O a while back?
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Man this place is deeeeeaaaaaaad today.
Random question for cayvie as I'm rereading: Did you ever really explain that weird vote/unvote on O a while back?
a couple times, basically i got a townread on O within minutes of placing my vote.
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Man this place is deeeeeaaaaaaad today.
Random question for cayvie as I'm rereading: Did you ever really explain that weird vote/unvote on O a while back?
a couple times, basically i got a townread on O within minutes of placing my vote.
Ok fair enough.
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Theory: not all 25 of us are closely following this thing.
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In the restaurant industry, weekends are actually busier than weekdays.
This has been a crazy one.
Apologies.
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Hellooooo
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Theory: Voltgloss is scum and his master plan is to stall the town to a NL deadline by promising a big long post and never delivering it, causing everyone to stop posting.
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I admit to thinking kindof the same thing, except for the fact that I thought about it while phone lurking @ the apple orchard, the petting zoo, and ikea. Weekends are busy.
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Theory: Voltgloss is scum and his master plan is to stall the town to a NL deadline by promising a big long post and never delivering it, causing everyone to stop posting.
I'm thinking more to MIII. IIRC he announced a big case ahead of time on day 1 as well. Can't fully remember the situation, if the case was connected to the gambit or came after, as a result of the gambit.
I'm waiting to see what he says though. I can imagine a legitimate case against me, though it would be misguided.
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Please, tell us about the legitimate but misguided case you're imagining. It'll help pass the time.
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Please, tell us about the legitimate but misguided case you're imagining. It'll help pass the time.
Just that I was less involved than usual, especially at the start of the game. I didn't take much of a stance on the early wagons. But I said before role PMs were sent that I would try to be less active than before, because it's just so time consuming. Not to mention that difference in play from previous games doesn't say much, because I've only played two regular games and was JK in one and scum in the other.
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I'm here. Drunk. AMA.
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Grujah stumbled into the courtyard. "Okay, time to really figure out who kidnapped Robz... just as soon as I've had another drink!" EHal, who was sitting in an armchair waiting for an accusation that never came, shrugged and got up to open another cask.
"Eureka! I am ready to present my argument!" declared Voltgloss, an hour later. But everyone in the courtyard had passed out. "Well, I tried," he said with a sigh, and headed back to his room.
Half the day had now expired. Would anyone learn the identity of Robz's kidnapper in time?
***Note to newbies: Paragraphs like this one are pure flavor (they have no bearing on the game).
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Wait, Robz was only kidnapped? I don't think that's lynchworthy at all.
Vote: No Lynch
/jokes
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Yes my accusation was serious and yes that is the quote I was responding to, I didn't want to quote the whole thing and just link it to reduce on clutter. It's just a really odd defense of Voltaire. Felt like out of nowhere. And since IX I actually trust Eevee's instincts alot (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TffVGLElI/AAAAAAAACxA/trH1ch0Y3tI/s1600/ALOT6.png).
Vote: eHunt
unvote. I think it's odd that Voltaire wrote up a summary of the game that didn't include the fact that a couple folks were voting for him. I decided it's town-odd instead of scum-odd. When you're summarizing a game, you maybe don't include votes you think are minor or not part of the major story-arc. If you're scum and someone's voting for you, you know for a fact that that vote is really important to the plot of the game and worthy of being included in a summary. If you're town, I'd think you'd still think the votes on you were important, just because everyone's narrative of the game revolves around themselves a little, but at least there's a chance you could think the vote was unimportant enough that you could leave it out of a summary. Of course Voltaire could be WIFOMing me here, but I think it's a situation where it's genuinely difficult to think ahead - if Voltaire's scum, then in a matter of minutes, he calculated an answer to the question "what it would feel like to be summarizing this game if I were a townie" that I found convincing.
Realized I never really "answered" this, and since I think it's what Axxle was referring to, I just want to say that I only ever had 2 votes on me at once at that point, which was true of lots of people, and nobody seemed to be talking about me without voting (ie Grujah) and so it didn't seem like it was a big part of the narrative. Now that Frisk agrees with Insomniac, and Morgrim says he was ok with a lynch on me, I guess a summary might need to include a mini-Voltaire wagon? Eh.
(obligatory "hey axxle u found scumpair D1!")
PPE: I see ftl thinks Axxle was seriously responding to this, so I guess it's good I posted this.
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Aww Axxle that looks SO scummy! But you probably would have hid the double-vote for longer if you were scum, so I don't know.
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I don't think Axxle looks scummy.
But the double vote is actually super not evidence either way.
We have no evidence that Axxle has control over the D.V. As far as we can tell, his vote just counts twice. Now, scum or town, trying to hide that would have been really scummy and not very effective. It's not exactly a scum mastermind plan to just decide to be upfront about it. It's the easiest and most obvious decision.
Axxle's meta is all about doing the obvious thing with his powers. I remember one game where he was the cop, and I was SK, must have been MIII. Anyway I remember being struck by how straightforward he was in the use of his power.
TL;DR I get a town read on Axxle, but the double vote is totally irrelevant.
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Phone posting. Bad service but have been keeping up; back tomorrow.
I was voting for Voltaire. The post you quote was me unvoting him and explaining why. Not sure if you knew that or not from the way you quoted it.
Yes my accusation was serious and yes that is the quote I was responding to, I didn't want to quote the whole thing and just link it to reduce on clutter. It's just a really odd defense of Voltaire. Felt like out of nowhere. And since IX I actually trust Eevee's instincts alot (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TffVGLElI/AAAAAAAACxA/trH1ch0Y3tI/s1600/ALOT6.png).
Vote: eHunt
:)
unvote. I think it's odd that Voltaire wrote up a summary of the game that didn't include the fact that a couple folks were voting for him. I decided it's town-odd instead of scum-odd. When you're summarizing a game, you maybe don't include votes you think are minor or not part of the major story-arc. If you're scum and someone's voting for you, you know for a fact that that vote is really important to the plot of the game and worthy of being included in a summary. If you're town, I'd think you'd still think the votes on you were important, just because everyone's narrative of the game revolves around themselves a little, but at least there's a chance you could think the vote was unimportant enough that you could leave it out of a summary. Of course Voltaire could be WIFOMing me here, but I think it's a situation where it's genuinely difficult to think ahead - if Voltaire's scum, then in a matter of minutes, he calculated an answer to the question "what it would feel like to be summarizing this game if I were a townie" that I found convincing.
Realized I never really "answered" this, and since I think it's what Axxle was referring to, I just want to say that I only ever had 2 votes on me at once at that point, which was true of lots of people, and nobody seemed to be talking about me without voting (ie Grujah) and so it didn't seem like it was a big part of the narrative. Now that Frisk agrees with Insomniac, and Morgrim says he was ok with a lynch on me, I guess a summary might need to include a mini-Voltaire wagon? Eh.
(obligatory "hey axxle u found scumpair D1!")
PPE: I see ftl thinks Axxle was seriously responding to this, so I guess it's good I posted this.
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Smiley insertion in last post = accident from phone.
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Oh, that makes the reasons I stated somewhat invalid. I'll revisit it though if one of you end up flipping scum.
unvote
Vote: shraeye
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Axxle is reading town to me, too. Not much else to read all weekend, though.
Time to re-start RVS?
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I'm also ok with the majority-lynch plan.
I don't think Axxle voting ehunt is scummy and i agree the double vote doesn't tell us about his alignment.
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Axxle is reading town to me, too. Not much else to read all weekend, though.
Time to re-start RVS?
Waiting for Volt's case.
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Axxle is reading town to me, too. Not much else to read all weekend, though.
Time to re-start RVS?
You never re-start RVS.
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I'm also ok with the majority-lynch plan.
I don't think Axxle voting ehunt is scummy and i agree the double vote doesn't tell us about his alignment.
I agree, but in looking up doublevoter--and there still is speculation that Axxle truly is as such--on mafia scum, I think it is important to realize that as a town role, it is pretty weak. But as a mafia role it can be a huge liability!
For Town, Doublevoter is a very mild power role. While it has the potential to stop Mafia from endgaming the Town when they make up 50% of the living players (because they do not control 50% of the votes), they will usually be targeted to die much earlier than then because of the above point. In addition, possessing two votes does not imply that the doublevoter has any special knowledge about who is scum, and Towns tend to get quite angry if a doublevoter tries to use its power to push its will on the other players. Thus, Doublevoter is an especially weak Town power role that is often treated as an obstacle by the Town.
For scum, Doublevoter is immensely valuable because it allows the faction to endgame the other players (that is, control 50% of the votes) earlier than usual. This is especially true if the scum's doublevote is hidden, as they can fool the Town into believing they have more chances to lynch scum than they actually do. Thus, scum doublevoters are not unheard of but still remarkably powerful.
So I do think that it would be worth discussing at least lynching a double voter, simply to prevent the possibility of a double voter being mafia and having the ability to end game us. See jot using double vote to win as SK in RMMM1 as opposed to town cayvie using her double vote in the same game to lynch a townie....
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What Grujah said. Totally drunk now, will answer any question honestly so as to prove my towniness.
Though this didn't work out so well for ehunt in MVI.
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Do you think you'll ever get a town PM?
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I am curious about yuma's suggestion to lynch Axxle. It makes sense until you realize how different the dynamic is when there are (almost certainly) multiple scum teams. This would probably make it slightly less valuable. Still, I am not opposed to it. I haven't reread at all, but it seems like there is very little that we know and very few non-RVS reads. That or lynch Eevee for knowing about a Cult.
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So for now, Vote: Axxle?
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Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already.
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I'm also ok with the majority-lynch plan.
I don't think Axxle voting ehunt is scummy and i agree the double vote doesn't tell us about his alignment.
I agree, but in looking up doublevoter--and there still is speculation that Axxle truly is as such--on mafia scum, I think it is important to realize that as a town role, it is pretty weak. But as a mafia role it can be a huge liability!
For Town, Doublevoter is a very mild power role. While it has the potential to stop Mafia from endgaming the Town when they make up 50% of the living players (because they do not control 50% of the votes), they will usually be targeted to die much earlier than then because of the above point. In addition, possessing two votes does not imply that the doublevoter has any special knowledge about who is scum, and Towns tend to get quite angry if a doublevoter tries to use its power to push its will on the other players. Thus, Doublevoter is an especially weak Town power role that is often treated as an obstacle by the Town.
For scum, Doublevoter is immensely valuable because it allows the faction to endgame the other players (that is, control 50% of the votes) earlier than usual. This is especially true if the scum's doublevote is hidden, as they can fool the Town into believing they have more chances to lynch scum than they actually do. Thus, scum doublevoters are not unheard of but still remarkably powerful.
So I do think that it would be worth discussing at least lynching a double voter, simply to prevent the possibility of a double voter being mafia and having the ability to end game us. See jot using double vote to win as SK in RMMM1 as opposed to town cayvie using her double vote in the same game to lynch a townie....
itouch post: I am unlikely to vote axxle...
What changed between then and now? At the time of the second quote, Axxle's apparent double-vote was well documented. I don't think he's exactly been any more scummy since that time...
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I don't read Axxle as scum, that hasn't changed. At I certainly am not saying that we should vote Axxle. I am simply saying that in light of what I read on Mafia scum we should at least discuss it, regardless of my own personal read. And I think that the closer we get to a potential scum end game (I know that we aren't close at all yet, but I would rather discuss it sooner, rather than later) the more pressing discussing a double voter becomes.
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Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already.
I mean, I asked for summaries and what I got was people saying there was a pretty long RVS and then some heated conversations and not too much came of it. That's my single-sentence understanding of the game so far. My ears are always open though.
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Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already.
I mean, I asked for summaries and what I got was people saying there was a pretty long RVS and then some heated conversations and not too much came of it. That's my single-sentence understanding of the game so far. My ears are always open though.
Do you see the problem with this? You can't make the claim "We should do this lame lynch because there's nothing good" when you actually have no idea if there's anything good, because you haven't read the thread. And then to blame it on people's summaries not being good enough.
Also, in response to this:
I am curious about yuma's suggestion to lynch Axxle. It makes sense until you realize how different the dynamic is when there are (almost certainly) multiple scum teams. This would probably make it slightly less valuable. Still, I am not opposed to it. I haven't reread at all, but it seems like there is very little that we know and very few non-RVS reads. That or lynch Eevee for knowing about a Cult.
What do you mean by a non-RVS read?
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Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already.
I mean, I asked for summaries and what I got was people saying there was a pretty long RVS and then some heated conversations and not too much came of it. That's my single-sentence understanding of the game so far. My ears are always open though.
Oh man, youNgick, I am working on something super crazy. I call it the best Day2 guide ever. And it's a forum-page-by-page analysis of arguments that happened and who was involved. I'm not sure I'll finish it tonight, as I'm half-way through our game so far (just finished page 26 in this thread). And it's big. Like "what is the word-count-limit of these posts?" big. I'll probably just link y'all to a GoogleDoc if I can figure the internet out. So far, here are some topics that span multiple pages.
Dsell wagon (you'll find it occuring, and being questioned, and analyzed on pages 9-12)
Discussions on meta for different players (page 9 and 11)
Lynch-all-Lurkers policy (12-15, 17-19, 22-26)
Ehunt is trying to shush town/"knows" stuff (10, 13-18, 25)
Yuma wagon (20-23, 25-26)
cayvie's quick unvote on O (24-25)
postcounts (14-15, 25)
Shraeye's sarcastic scumslip vs. actilurking (13-18, 20, 22, 25)
newbie intros (10-11)
morgrim-hunting (10, 16, 18)
Double-voter (12, 15-17)
is RVS good or bad (13, 15)
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Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already.
I mean, I asked for summaries and what I got was people saying there was a pretty long RVS and then some heated conversations and not too much came of it. That's my single-sentence understanding of the game so far. My ears are always open though.
Do you see the problem with this? You can't make the claim "We should do this lame lynch because there's nothing good" when you actually have no idea if there's anything good, because you haven't read the thread. And then to blame it on people's summaries not being good enough.
Also, in response to this:
I am curious about yuma's suggestion to lynch Axxle. It makes sense until you realize how different the dynamic is when there are (almost certainly) multiple scum teams. This would probably make it slightly less valuable. Still, I am not opposed to it. I haven't reread at all, but it seems like there is very little that we know and very few non-RVS reads. That or lynch Eevee for knowing about a Cult.
What do you mean by a non-RVS read?
Well, I am certainly not "blaming" other people for giving me their summaries. I just assumed that the information was relatively accurate, and that if it weren't, that someone would make a correction. Please don't think I am ungrateful for the summaries. It just sounds like there has been little of substance so far!
And a non-RVS read is one that is based off of legitimate discussion, which seems to have started after page 25ish or so. I guess I just don't value RVS, it's only purpose is to launch us into productive discussion which it has. And that's where worthwhile reads come from.
And shraeye (how do you pronounce that?), I'm pumped!
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Maybe we need to define terms a little. RVS is Random Voting Stage, and it's really just the first couple pages. As soon as the Dsell wagon starts, as soon as any wagon starts, it's no longer RVS. As soon as the first person casts a serious vote, or even makes a serious accusation, it's no longer RVS.
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And shraeye (how do you pronounce that?), I'm pumped!
It rhymes with bay, croquet, and parfait.
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Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already.
I mean, I asked for summaries and what I got was people saying there was a pretty long RVS and then some heated conversations and not too much came of it. That's my single-sentence understanding of the game so far. My ears are always open though.
Oh man, youNgick, I am working on something super crazy. I call it the best Day2 guide ever. And it's a forum-page-by-page analysis of arguments that happened and who was involved. I'm not sure I'll finish it tonight, as I'm half-way through our game so far (just finished page 26 in this thread). And it's big. Like "what is the word-count-limit of these posts?" big. I'll probably just link y'all to a GoogleDoc if I can figure the internet out. So far, here are some topics that span multiple pages.
Dsell wagon (you'll find it occuring, and being questioned, and analyzed on pages 9-12)
Discussions on meta for different players (page 9 and 11)
Lynch-all-Lurkers policy (12-15, 17-19, 22-26)
Ehunt is trying to shush town/"knows" stuff (10, 13-18, 25)
Yuma wagon (20-23, 25-26)
cayvie's quick unvote on O (24-25)
postcounts (14-15, 25)
Shraeye's sarcastic scumslip vs. actilurking (13-18, 20, 22, 25)
newbie intros (10-11)
morgrim-hunting (10, 16, 18)
Double-voter (12, 15-17)
is RVS good or bad (13, 15)
Check with Robz before linking the Google Doc. I would be against it, because it is something that can be edited by you. The changing info means that some people may have info that others do not, should you change something between reads. A similar ruling was made back in MVI. Ozle was posting with a self-imposed posting restriction and someone (Axxle?) translated it and put it in a Google Doc. It was ruled that it should not be linked.
Anyway, I hope it's half as good as what I put together for MIII. ;)
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Hey Robz, if I send you this file, would you be willing to give me a link to post, so that you can hold the file and it's uneditable for me
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I'm back from a weekend with no internet. Waking up at 5am for work. Hooray!
@Young Nick and jotheonah...I was also under the impression that RVS referred to all of Day 1. And even if that technically isn't true, I still see what you are saying (and it is something I said a long time ago). That is, wagons happen, people read into posts, defenses, and arguments, but ultimately we are working off intuitions of patterns rather than evidence of patterns. and what we see right now is much more likely to be random than real because it's D1. so despite what any definitions say, this feels like an RVS to me. There is a reason there have been so many wagons and that none have emerged to everybody as a clear lynch-vote.
I should have made this clear earlier: all for the soft deadline on Wed.
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As a newb, my contributions could be greatly aided by one thing: is there a way to search by user/poster? like, if i want to read all of Young Nick's posts, could i filter in such a way?
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Well, I don't have many to read, but hit the print button on the right side of the page and that will give you the whole game on one page. You can then sort by "Posted by: Young Nick" and that finds the quotes.
I would say that RVS is not all of d1, though. If someone consistently is jumping on every wagon, that is something that should be duly noted, but the randomness of the original, early RVS is what can be disregarded as silliness.
PS: Don't hit the "All" button next to the page number of the thread. That version is too difficult to load and can crash browsers. So hit the "print" instead.
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As a newb, my contributions could be greatly aided by one thing: is there a way to search by user/poster? like, if i want to read all of Young Nick's posts, could i filter in such a way?
Go to the print page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=4412.0) and search (Ctrl+F) for "by: [username]".
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Ninja'd.
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Vote Count 1.18
shraeye (4) -- Axxle, ftl, Captain_Frisk
ehunt (1) -- Eevee
Glooble (1) -- yuma
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (3) -- Watno, Cuzz, ashersky
eHalcyon (1) -- Voltgloss
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Watno (2) -- TheMunch, jotheonah
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
Not Voting (9) -- Dsell, Galzria, Grujah, ibgtennis, O, eHalcyon, ehunt, shraeye, Voltaire
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
Hey Robz, if I send you this file, would you be willing to give me a link to post, so that you can hold the file and it's uneditable for me
Tentatively I am ruling yes, we can do that. If someone sees a problem with it and has a complaint, please PM me.
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Eh, hosted by Robz is OK then.
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I dont suspect Axxle for voting ehunt, but I guess I should clarify: Was "trusting Eevee's instincts" a joke of some sort? Because if not, mentioning that as a reason for voting seems both fabricated and for some reason wanting to buddy me at the same time.
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I dont suspect Axxle for voting ehunt, but I guess I should clarify: Was "trusting Eevee's instincts" a joke of some sort? Because if not, mentioning that as a reason for voting seems both fabricated and for some reason wanting to buddy me at the same time.
"buddying," in so much as it's a thing, is, I think, a thing that we make too much of. It's each person's responsibility to make sure their own reads are impartial and aren't tainted by how nice someone's been to them. But as long as we keep that in mind, we shouldn't be scared to be friendly, say nice things, compliment each other for good plays.
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I dont suspect Axxle for voting ehunt, but I guess I should clarify: Was "trusting Eevee's instincts" a joke of some sort? Because if not, mentioning that as a reason for voting seems both fabricated and for some reason wanting to buddy me at the same time.
"buddying," in so much as it's a thing, is, I think, a thing that we make too much of. It's each person's responsibility to make sure their own reads are impartial and aren't tainted by how nice someone's been to them. But as long as we keep that in mind, we shouldn't be scared to be friendly, say nice things, compliment each other for good plays.
I agree that we shouldn't be afraid to say nice things and make compliments but I think that buddying is very much a real thing from the mafia. Not for everyone, of course, but I think it's a pretty fundamental and instinctual thing for scum to try to gain trust with the town for buddying. I've had mafia buddy up with me and I've tried to buddy up to others as mafia. It's usually subtle but it's still something I look for.
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I dont suspect Axxle for voting ehunt, but I guess I should clarify: Was "trusting Eevee's instincts" a joke of some sort? Because if not, mentioning that as a reason for voting seems both fabricated and for some reason wanting to buddy me at the same time.
"buddying," in so much as it's a thing, is, I think, a thing that we make too much of. It's each person's responsibility to make sure their own reads are impartial and aren't tainted by how nice someone's been to them. But as long as we keep that in mind, we shouldn't be scared to be friendly, say nice things, compliment each other for good plays.
I absolutely agree. But I don't know, you don't think adding that sentence to the post looks super weird?
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I dont suspect Axxle for voting ehunt, but I guess I should clarify: Was "trusting Eevee's instincts" a joke of some sort? Because if not, mentioning that as a reason for voting seems both fabricated and for some reason wanting to buddy me at the same time.
"buddying," in so much as it's a thing, is, I think, a thing that we make too much of. It's each person's responsibility to make sure their own reads are impartial and aren't tainted by how nice someone's been to them. But as long as we keep that in mind, we shouldn't be scared to be friendly, say nice things, compliment each other for good plays.
I agree that we shouldn't be afraid to say nice things and make compliments but I think that buddying is very much a real thing from the mafia. Not for everyone, of course, but I think it's a pretty fundamental and instinctual thing for scum to try to gain trust with the town for buddying. I've had mafia buddy up with me and I've tried to buddy up to others as mafia. It's usually subtle but it's still something I look for.
"gain trust with the town *by buddying."
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If it helps you scumhunt, I won't knock it. Personally, it's never been a make-or-break tell for me.
re: Eevee, it didn't strike me as weird, but see above.
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"buddying," in so much as it's a thing, is, I think, a thing that we make too much of.
example?
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Good lord, I wasn't on f.ds all weekend, I came back expecting to have missed so much, and Volt hasn't even posted his eHalc case yet.
Weekends are so dead here. That's okay for me because I'm usually not here on weekends anyway.
I'm okay with Robz hosting a googledoc. Is there any particular reason shraeye can't just copy the info into a post, though?
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Buddying up is definitely a thing. I don't think I've ever been successful at 'catching' scum by it happening, though, because in a friendly game a lot of people try to be nice.
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Folks, I am so sorry, but I think I need to replace out.
What I discovered this weekend is that my wife - who is very pregnant (we are due to deliver next month) - has conclusively hit that vastly uncomfortable stage of pregnancy which requires my assisting her pretty much all the time when I am home. The entire weekend was devoted to that. That, plus work responsibilities, means that - for at least the next few weeks - I just don't have time to keep up with this thread. (It's all I can do to keep up with CE and modding M-XII.)
The case on eHalc was grounded on his strong opposition to discussing Robz-meta, ostensibly because his own role (he says) does not fit any meta relating to eHalc. This struck me as odd because (1) in the sign-up thread, Robz specifically said that roles and alignments were, at least for SOME players, partially based on meta; and (2) I don't think other people were really pushing the meta-discussion very hard when eHalc raised this a second time. Why was he so vehemently opposed to such discussion? Maybe because he was concerned it would lead to outing - if not him - maybe one of his scum-teammates?
I was planning to do a deeper dive into eHalc's posts to see if this reason for suspicion was buttressed by other behavior but, as said above, I simply had zero time to do so despite my best efforts.
Again, my deepest apologies all. Unvote, as my replacement may feel differently than I do.
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I will seek a replacement.
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Alright it appears a majority are willing to soft deadline, plurality lynch. I would suggest a soft deadline at 11:59 pm wednesday and then another for Thursday night wherein votes need to be moved to the highest vote getter. If we still do not have a lynch I would then suggest to move votes to those that stopped the lynch from occuring, especially those who said they agreed to the plurality lynch but then did not participate in it, for whatever reason.
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Fine with that idea. Need to get things moving somehow.
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Just updating my list, trying to get this started. Reasons for 1 and 2 provided earlier, for lack of a better option 3 Frisk is back on the list but at the lowest spot.
Vote: jotheonah
2nd vote: Watno
3rd vote: Captain_Frisk
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I really don't like the idea of lynching Axxle just because he's probably a doublevoter.
I'm ok with the yuma's deadline plan, and I want everyone to either agree or give a reason for not doing so.
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Vote: ehunt
2nd vote - Watno
3rd vote - eHalcyon
P.S. I suggest this format so we don't accidentally vote with our secondary and tertiary votes.
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
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Folks, I am so sorry, but I think I need to replace out.
What I discovered this weekend is that my wife - who is very pregnant (we are due to deliver next month) - has conclusively hit that vastly uncomfortable stage of pregnancy which requires my assisting her pretty much all the time when I am home. The entire weekend was devoted to that. That, plus work responsibilities, means that - for at least the next few weeks - I just don't have time to keep up with this thread. (It's all I can do to keep up with CE and modding M-XII.)
The case on eHalc was grounded on his strong opposition to discussing Robz-meta, ostensibly because his own role (he says) does not fit any meta relating to eHalc. This struck me as odd because (1) in the sign-up thread, Robz specifically said that roles and alignments were, at least for SOME players, partially based on meta; and (2) I don't think other people were really pushing the meta-discussion very hard when eHalc raised this a second time. Why was he so vehemently opposed to such discussion? Maybe because he was concerned it would lead to outing - if not him - maybe one of his scum-teammates?
I was planning to do a deeper dive into eHalc's posts to see if this reason for suspicion was buttressed by other behavior but, as said above, I simply had zero time to do so despite my best efforts.
Again, my deepest apologies all. Unvote, as my replacement may feel differently than I do.
This is such terrible reasoning. I've already clearly explained why I was against meta speculation, but I'll outline it again:
- Robz clearly stated that any basis would be subtle
- not only that, but some would be random anyway
- meta discussion is therefore the weakest basis for scumhunting, and discussion on those lines is extremely unproductive
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
Dismissive? I've been waiting for it. And what finally came has been extremely underwhelming. Not sure what you mean by "subbing out".
But thanks for giving reasons for each of your picks, anyway. I think everyone else should as well.
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
Dismissive? I've been waiting for it. And what finally came has been extremely underwhelming. Not sure what you mean by "subbing out".
But thanks for giving reasons for each of your picks, anyway. I think everyone else should as well.
Well dismissive probably isn't the correct reason, but what I mean by it is that you were waiting for it but it didn't feel to me like you were actually waiting for it, and then you teased the town by saying you could see a legitimate case against you but never actually said what it was. Would you be willing to shed a light on that case yet?
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
Dismissive? I've been waiting for it. And what finally came has been extremely underwhelming. Not sure what you mean by "subbing out".
But thanks for giving reasons for each of your picks, anyway. I think everyone else should as well.
Well dismissive probably isn't the correct reason, but what I mean by it is that you were waiting for it but it didn't feel to me like you were actually waiting for it, and then you teased the town by saying you could see a legitimate case against you but never actually said what it was. Would you be willing to shed a light on that case yet?
...are you even reading the posts?
Please, tell us about the legitimate but misguided case you're imagining. It'll help pass the time.
Just that I was less involved than usual, especially at the start of the game. I didn't take much of a stance on the early wagons. But I said before role PMs were sent that I would try to be less active than before, because it's just so time consuming. Not to mention that difference in play from previous games doesn't say much, because I've only played two regular games and was JK in one and scum in the other.
On another note,
FOS: Volt
Volt teases at a big case against me, making it sound like he has a lot written up but it just needs some polish. Turns out there is nothing at all, and the seed of it is entirely worthless (IMO). It also reminds me of MIII, where Volt was scum.
I'll let it go because of his IRL busy-ness and need to /out, but still -- FOS.
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
Dismissive? I've been waiting for it. And what finally came has been extremely underwhelming. Not sure what you mean by "subbing out".
But thanks for giving reasons for each of your picks, anyway. I think everyone else should as well.
Well dismissive probably isn't the correct reason, but what I mean by it is that you were waiting for it but it didn't feel to me like you were actually waiting for it, and then you teased the town by saying you could see a legitimate case against you but never actually said what it was. Would you be willing to shed a light on that case yet?
By the way, what do you mean that it didn't feel like I was actually waiting for it? What did you expect me to do, constantly ask about it and worry about it? I was anticipating it, and not because it was something against me but because I was interested in what Volt had to say, mostly as a way to get a better read on Volt.
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Vote: eHalcyon - something about the way he's reacting to this reads really scummy to me. Like, yes, Volt said he had a "case"... But he also said on multiple occasions that it wasn't concrete, and that he still needed to read back to flesh out it's full merit. eHal is just way overreacting here to what ultimately was a FoS from a player who generally has good reads. I don't know if Volt was right or not, but his base accusation aside, eHal seems scummy in his responses since.
Second vote - Watno - I found Munch to be pretty clear awhile back, and the way Watno keep pushing him and twisting Munch's meaning seemed really off to me. I don't know that scum would be so bold, but I wouldn't rule it out, and he really stood out to me as scummy in that debate.
Third vote - Grujah - He's still lurking, and while he's doing so across multiple games, that doesn't make it any more or less likely that he's scum here. There's plenty to offer opinions about and commit yourself to. Don't hide behind "there's nothing to say".
Fourth vote - O - He still hasn't said anything meaningful.
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
Dismissive? I've been waiting for it. And what finally came has been extremely underwhelming. Not sure what you mean by "subbing out".
But thanks for giving reasons for each of your picks, anyway. I think everyone else should as well.
Well dismissive probably isn't the correct reason, but what I mean by it is that you were waiting for it but it didn't feel to me like you were actually waiting for it, and then you teased the town by saying you could see a legitimate case against you but never actually said what it was. Would you be willing to shed a light on that case yet?
By the way, what do you mean that it didn't feel like I was actually waiting for it? What did you expect me to do, constantly ask about it and worry about it? I was anticipating it, and not because it was something against me but because I was interested in what Volt had to say, mostly as a way to get a better read on Volt.
The thing is YOU did constantly ask and talk about it, but not in a way that seemed like you cared at all because you had your rebuttal all typed up for anything he could throw at you.
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Vote: eHalcyon - something about the way he's reacting to this reads really scummy to me. Like, yes, Volt said he had a "case"... But he also said on multiple occasions that it wasn't concrete, and that he still needed to read back to flesh out it's full merit. eHal is just way overreacting here to what ultimately was a FoS from a player who generally has good reads. I don't know if Volt was right or not, but his base accusation aside, eHal seems scummy in his responses since.
Second vote - Watno - I found Munch to be pretty clear awhile back, and the way Watno keep pushing him and twisting Munch's meaning seemed really off to me. I don't know that scum would be so bold, but I wouldn't rule it out, and he really stood out to me as scummy in that debate.
Third vote - Grujah - He's still lurking, and while he's doing so across multiple games, that doesn't make it any more or less likely that he's scum here. There's plenty to offer opinions about and commit yourself to. Don't hide behind "there's nothing to say".
Fourth vote - O - He still hasn't said anything meaningful.
He said it wasn't concrete, but it sounded like he had something. But he doesn't have anything at all.
How have I over-reacted?
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The thing is YOU did constantly ask and talk about it, but not in a way that seemed like you cared at all because you had your rebuttal all typed up for anything he could throw at you.
Constantly? I think not. I asked about it maybe three times. In the mean time, I carried on several productive conversations. How in the world would I have a rebuttal typed up to a case that hadn't been given? The way you are pushing this looks scummy to me.
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NOTE: Voltgloss has been replaced by sparky5856. The introductory information post will be updated to reflect this. Please remember that some roles and alignments may or may not have been modeled on specific player's characteristics, metas, or forum histories and as such, keep in mind that sparky5856 was originally Voltgloss.
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I don't understand this push on eHalc. Voltgloss's case on him was incredibly non-existent.
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I don't understand this push on eHalc. Voltgloss's case on him was incredibly non-existent.
I agree
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1. I'm OK with the Yuma deadline plan. I'm not totally clear on what happens when deadline is reached. I am emphatically not OK with a plurality of say, five, becoming a reason to lynch someone. If you lynch town, you have to be held accountable for it, you can't be allowed to get away with "oh, but the plurality was on that person after the Yuma-plan."
2. I will do my primary/secondary/tertiary asap. I have some catching up to do before casting a vote.
3. I am convinced that Robz assigned Axxle the double-voter business before Robz assigned Axxle an alignment and role. Same with my own assignment: I am convinced that the special stuff about me that I alluded to earlier was assigned before my alignment was. It makes the most sense for two reasons; one, I'd prefer not to explain, but the other seems harmless to explain: Robz somehow has to balance the game fairly and give personality-based special flavor. The best way I can figure out to do this would be to figure out personality-flavor first and assign alignment later.
4. I think Volt's case on eHalc is weak, for reasons similar to 3.
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I need to be careful not to abbreviate Voltgloss as Volt, sorry. I meant voltgloss, now sparky, in point 4 of my previous post, not Voltaire.
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I need to be careful not to abbreviate Voltgloss as Volt, sorry. I meant voltgloss, now sparky, in point 4 of my previous post, not Voltaire.
I'd like to again suggest that Voltgloss can still go by Volt, as he always has, if I just go by V.
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
You need to commit. When you say "it's informational," do you mean, "it's informational cause I think ehunt is scummy?" If so, you need to say so. Do not let Insomniac get away with saying "I just voted ehunt for the information."
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The thing is YOU did constantly ask and talk about it, but not in a way that seemed like you cared at all because you had your rebuttal all typed up for anything he could throw at you.
Constantly? I think not. I asked about it maybe three times. In the mean time, I carried on several productive conversations. How in the world would I have a rebuttal typed up to a case that hadn't been given? The way you are pushing this looks scummy to me.
You could have typed up a rebuttal to anything you've done that seems scummy and just parsed out the information that was relevant and posted that, though waiting to make your rebuttal would probably make a much cleaner rebuttal.
To those claiming this eHal push is bad, why? Why is it bad to put pressure on someone, I don't think Voltgloss's case was all that good but eHal has reacted in a way that deserves a bit of heat IMO.
eHunt: I am 50/50 on you, it's informational because you had a big wagon on you and if you flip scum or town I know better how to look at the people that wagon'd you. So I'm not saying your scummy or not, because I could see you flipping either way.
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The thing is YOU did constantly ask and talk about it, but not in a way that seemed like you cared at all because you had your rebuttal all typed up for anything he could throw at you.
Constantly? I think not. I asked about it maybe three times. In the mean time, I carried on several productive conversations. How in the world would I have a rebuttal typed up to a case that hadn't been given? The way you are pushing this looks scummy to me.
You could have typed up a rebuttal to anything you've done that seems scummy and just parsed out the information that was relevant and posted that, though waiting to make your rebuttal would probably make a much cleaner rebuttal.
To those claiming this eHal push is bad, why? Why is it bad to put pressure on someone, I don't think Voltgloss's case was all that good but eHal has reacted in a way that deserves a bit of heat IMO.
eHunt: I am 50/50 on you, it's informational because you had a big wagon on you and if you flip scum or town I know better how to look at the people that wagon'd you. So I'm not saying your scummy or not, because I could see you flipping either way.
OK, but you have a "second vote" on me, which could cause me to get lynched per the yuma system. You claim that you'll learn something from an ehunt-lynch. Tell me more. Who will you be suspicious of tomorrow if your second-vote on ehunt becomes successful? You can't get away with "I'll learn something." What will you learn? Who will you vote for?
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The thing is YOU did constantly ask and talk about it, but not in a way that seemed like you cared at all because you had your rebuttal all typed up for anything he could throw at you.
Constantly? I think not. I asked about it maybe three times. In the mean time, I carried on several productive conversations. How in the world would I have a rebuttal typed up to a case that hadn't been given? The way you are pushing this looks scummy to me.
You could have typed up a rebuttal to anything you've done that seems scummy and just parsed out the information that was relevant and posted that, though waiting to make your rebuttal would probably make a much cleaner rebuttal.
To those claiming this eHal push is bad, why? Why is it bad to put pressure on someone, I don't think Voltgloss's case was all that good but eHal has reacted in a way that deserves a bit of heat IMO.
eHunt: I am 50/50 on you, it's informational because you had a big wagon on you and if you flip scum or town I know better how to look at the people that wagon'd you. So I'm not saying your scummy or not, because I could see you flipping either way.
OK, but you have a "second vote" on me, which could cause me to get lynched per the yuma system. You claim that you'll learn something from an ehunt-lynch. Tell me more. Who will you be suspicious of tomorrow if your second-vote on ehunt becomes successful? You can't get away with "I'll learn something." What will you learn? Who will you vote for?
I will be suspicious of the people on your wagon, I will not tell you more as it has criteria based on NK's as well. Saying anymore than that voids it if I say I will be suspicious of X if Y dies and X is mafia then they don't kill Y, if X isn't mafia they can kill Y to frame X.
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You could have typed up a rebuttal to anything you've done that seems scummy and just parsed out the information that was relevant and posted that, though waiting to make your rebuttal would probably make a much cleaner rebuttal.
If I were scummy and thought that doing something would seem scummy, I just wouldn't have done it in the first place.
To those claiming this eHal push is bad, why? Why is it bad to put pressure on someone, I don't think Voltgloss's case was all that good but eHal has reacted in a way that deserves a bit of heat IMO.
Please expand on this. Galzria too, because he actually put me as his top vote.
In what way has my reaction been scummy? You say this, but provide no quotes and no case.
For your part, Ins, your reason did seem to be based on Volt having a case on me. But now you admit that his case was weak.
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You could have typed up a rebuttal to anything you've done that seems scummy and just parsed out the information that was relevant and posted that, though waiting to make your rebuttal would probably make a much cleaner rebuttal.
If I were scummy and thought that doing something would seem scummy, I just wouldn't have done it in the first place.
To those claiming this eHal push is bad, why? Why is it bad to put pressure on someone, I don't think Voltgloss's case was all that good but eHal has reacted in a way that deserves a bit of heat IMO.
Please expand on this. Galzria too, because he actually put me as his top vote.
In what way has my reaction been scummy? You say this, but provide no quotes and no case.
For your part, Ins, your reason did seem to be based on Volt having a case on me. But now you admit that his case was weak.
It was never the Volt case, it was how you reacted to Volt saying he had a case, and how you reacted when Volt finally did say what his case was based on.
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I will be suspicious of the people on your wagon, I will not tell you more as it has criteria based on NK's as well. Saying anymore than that voids it if I say I will be suspicious of X if Y dies and X is mafia then they don't kill Y, if X isn't mafia they can kill Y to frame X.
Are you talking about the ehunt wagon that cropped up during what was arguably still RVS? I don't think that wagon would be any more informational than it is right now.
If ehunt flipped town, would you be suspicious of people who voted to lynch ehunt on the basis that it would be informational? I would.
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Reread eHalc, in honor of Voltgloss's dead case. I don't think the arguing against meta-reads is scummy or townie per se; I mean, as town or as scum, it's quite possible for eHal to have a role that doesn't match his meta. He did have a few comments about cult-hunting, which sounded a bit like the sk-hunting which is supposed to be a mafia tell. ...he's also not placed a single vote on anyone yet! Who do you suspect, eHal?
I don't have any particularly strong reads, but here are my lynch candidates:
1) Shraeye. Repeatedly voting for one person while arguing for other people, townish-sounding words but scum-looking voting. That's where my vote is.
2) Glooble. I don't remember much by him but I think I got a scum vibe.
3) ibgtennis. Yeah, I still have a soft spot for lynching someone just for a low post count, so people can't get away with what Robz did D1 of BMV. But fine, there's no lynch-all-lurkers meta, doesn't mean I have to stop listing him.
Sort of meh-ish on either ehal lynch, it seems okay at the moment after the reread but I can see myself looking back on it and being like damn that was a stupid lynch of someone for being active. So I won't put it on my list. Don't really have a townread on him either though. Same with insom. Lynches 'for information' are a terrible idea.
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It was never the Volt case, it was how you reacted to Volt saying he had a case, and how you reacted when Volt finally did say what his case was based on.
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
According to your initial reason, it certainly has something to do with Volt. ::)
Oh, I just figured out what you meant by "subbing out". I disagree -- subbing out is something anyone does when they have IRL commitments that take precedence. It says nothing about alignment.
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he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
(Warning to new folks - next paragraph = argument about old games):
I want to point out that O made the exact same argument in MIX to get me lynched (he was power-role scum and I was town doctor in that game, although two caveats - a. I think in that other game he genuinely believed I was scum (there were two scumteams in that game so it made sense for scum to scumhunt) and b. I think in this game, despite this analogy, that O is probably town*).
Look, I really wish you knew me IRL to say "calm cool head." I have not had a "calm cool head" at any point in my existence as a human being. I am a highly impulsive and emotional person who latches onto an idea and cannot let it go. I wish theorel were in this game so he could confirm this. I did talk more in MVI (although a lot of my talkativeness was after day one), but I said I would talk less in this game before receiving my role PM, have been V/LA this weekend, and have been really talkative in this game nonetheless since the first day or so, certainly more talkative than a lot of folks who are voting for me. So I think the "ehunt has a different personality this game from the other games" argument is bunk.
*footnote: I think the prohibition on OMGUS is junk-science from people who spend too much time reading the mafiascum wiki and not enough time thinking for themselves (as are several of the other "tells.") In MIX I correctly called 4 out of the 5 scum on my wagon and identified the 2 town on it, but instead I was lynched despite being a claimed doctor because people were like "you're OMGUSing." In this game, however, I am having a harder time calling scum on my wagon. I don't think this is primarily a scumwagon like the one in MIX was, it could be all town, or maybe one of the quieter votes (eevee is the only one I can think of; there may be others) is scum. I do think Insom is suspicious for saying my wagon will be informational (and pseudo-voting for me) without providing any actual details.
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I will be suspicious of the people on your wagon, I will not tell you more as it has criteria based on NK's as well. Saying anymore than that voids it if I say I will be suspicious of X if Y dies and X is mafia then they don't kill Y, if X isn't mafia they can kill Y to frame X.
Are you talking about the ehunt wagon that cropped up during what was arguably still RVS? I don't think that wagon would be any more informational than it is right now.
If ehunt flipped town, would you be suspicious of people who voted to lynch ehunt on the basis that it would be informational? I would.
This is what I mean with you're reaction, I put any amount of pressure on you at all and you jump on anything you can to go "I'm not scummy the people accusing me are" Galzria hasn't given you anything else to accuse him on so silly me for continuing to talk to you.
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It was never the Volt case, it was how you reacted to Volt saying he had a case, and how you reacted when Volt finally did say what his case was based on.
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
According to your initial reason, it certainly has something to do with Volt. ::)
Oh, I just figured out what you meant by "subbing out". I disagree -- subbing out is something anyone does when they have IRL commitments that take precedence. It says nothing about alignment.
The case as he presented it is weak, I suspect had he had the time the case would have been much more thorough and brought up good reasons for why you were scum. I think Volt is a clever guy and has often written cases that are good
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Reread eHalc, in honor of Voltgloss's dead case. I don't think the arguing against meta-reads is scummy or townie per se; I mean, as town or as scum, it's quite possible for eHal to have a role that doesn't match his meta. He did have a few comments about cult-hunting, which sounded a bit like the sk-hunting which is supposed to be a mafia tell. ...he's also not placed a single vote on anyone yet! Who do you suspect, eHal?
I think I talked a bit more about Cult hunting. Cults are far more dangerous than SKs, and I would say that a traditional Cult is more dangerous than even Mafia. That said, I never actually tried to cult-hunt because... how do?
I voted for jo at one point.
For suspicions, refer back to #958. It all still holds true. I am feeling the tug of OMGUS, but I'm trying to resist it from colouring my suspicions.
Uhh, I was supposed to re-read some players over the weekend but I did not get the chance. Oops.
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I will be suspicious of the people on your wagon, I will not tell you more as it has criteria based on NK's as well. Saying anymore than that voids it if I say I will be suspicious of X if Y dies and X is mafia then they don't kill Y, if X isn't mafia they can kill Y to frame X.
Are you talking about the ehunt wagon that cropped up during what was arguably still RVS? I don't think that wagon would be any more informational than it is right now.
If ehunt flipped town, would you be suspicious of people who voted to lynch ehunt on the basis that it would be informational? I would.
This is what I mean with you're reaction, I put any amount of pressure on you at all and you jump on anything you can to go "I'm not scummy the people accusing me are" Galzria hasn't given you anything else to accuse him on so silly me for continuing to talk to you.
I don't understand this post at all.
The post you are quoting is about ehunt, not me. In that post, I did not say anyone was scummy.
Unless you are talking about my reference to "people who voted to lynch ehunt on the basis that it would be informational"? That's if ehunt flipped town, and the point of it is that I'm not going to let people get away with lynching PURELY for informational purposes. I have given my arguments for that already. I believe the actual lynch wagon is the best info we get out of day 1, and I won't let it be neutered by pursuing an "informational lynch", where said information is based on an RVS wagon. No, the lynch wagon is better, and I want it to be used even if the people on that wagon voted because it would be "informational".
Vote for ehunt if you think he is scum. Vote for me if you think I am scum. We'll go from there.
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I will be suspicious of the people on your wagon, I will not tell you more as it has criteria based on NK's as well. Saying anymore than that voids it if I say I will be suspicious of X if Y dies and X is mafia then they don't kill Y, if X isn't mafia they can kill Y to frame X.
Are you talking about the ehunt wagon that cropped up during what was arguably still RVS? I don't think that wagon would be any more informational than it is right now.
If ehunt flipped town, would you be suspicious of people who voted to lynch ehunt on the basis that it would be informational? I would.
This is what I mean with you're reaction, I put any amount of pressure on you at all and you jump on anything you can to go "I'm not scummy the people accusing me are" Galzria hasn't given you anything else to accuse him on so silly me for continuing to talk to you.
I don't understand this post at all.
The post you are quoting is about ehunt, not me. In that post, I did not say anyone was scummy.
Unless you are talking about my reference to "people who voted to lynch ehunt on the basis that it would be informational"? That's if ehunt flipped town, and the point of it is that I'm not going to let people get away with lynching PURELY for informational purposes. I have given my arguments for that already. I believe the actual lynch wagon is the best info we get out of day 1, and I won't let it be neutered by pursuing an "informational lynch", where said information is based on an RVS wagon. No, the lynch wagon is better, and I want it to be used even if the people on that wagon voted because it would be "informational".
Vote for ehunt if you think he is scum. Vote for me if you think I am scum. We'll go from there.
I'll play how I want to play. I do not think the ehunt wagon was RVS, and its not PURELY for informational purposes I believe he has just about as good a chance at being scum as anybody else in here.
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I'll play how I want to play. I do not think the ehunt wagon was RVS, and its not PURELY for informational purposes I believe he has just about as good a chance at being scum as anybody else in here.
Fair enough.
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
I just wanna say that, unless you think Volt is making up the excuse that his wife's pregnant, surely anyone would sub out in his sitch, scum or town. Him subbing out has no bearing on his alignment.
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
I just wanna say that, unless you think Volt is making up the excuse that his wife's pregnant, surely anyone would sub out in his sitch, scum or town. Him subbing out has no bearing on his alignment.
Thats fair, the normally town does thing is that I do not think we have seen a game where scum has subbed out (Resistance II barred as its not mafia)
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
I just wanna say that, unless you think Volt is making up the excuse that his wife's pregnant, surely anyone would sub out in his sitch, scum or town. Him subbing out has no bearing on his alignment.
Thats fair, the normally town does thing is that I do not think we have seen a game where scum has subbed out (Resistance II barred as its not mafia)
scumfrisk subbed out for pps in MIX
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Vote: Voltaire -- it's my case I still like it
2nd vote - eHunt -- it's informational
3rd vote: eHalcyon -- I think Volt's a clever guy, subbing out is normally something town does, and eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
I just wanna say that, unless you think Volt is making up the excuse that his wife's pregnant, surely anyone would sub out in his sitch, scum or town. Him subbing out has no bearing on his alignment.
Thats fair, the normally town does thing is that I do not think we have seen a game where scum has subbed out (Resistance II barred as its not mafia)
scumfrisk subbed out for pps in MIX
Ok I retract that part of my statement fully then. The rest of it stands.
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Hmm, weird parallels between Grujah and Glooble.
Each is semi-lurking, each has a post where the other is his top pick for scum, each tries for a drunk AMA.
Tried to look over the major wagon candidates, decided it would make more sense to just look over everyone I'm looking specifically for people with a lot of contentless posts, and/or just straight-up lurkers.
1. Ftl - few recent posts, most of them IIoA (hypocritical, since strictly speaking that's what this post is, but I need to collect my thoughts.) Neutral read.
2. Voltgloss - slight town read, mostly from his set-up/ reaction to the yuma wagon, which seems like a town gambit to me more than a scum gambit. Less active than he usually is, but I could attribute this to the size of the town.
3. Eevee - one of the main players at this juncture. Not a candidate for a D1 lynch.
4. Grujah - still my top candidate. He has two substantive posts I found - the one voting for me for "playing just how I always play" and an analysis of everyone's metas, which would be such an easy way for scum to get in a long post without forming any opinions.
5. Insomniac - really hard to navigate with how many other games he's modding/playing, but he doesn't look great. Jumping from wagon to wagon, lots of accusing, not much evidence. That's not necessarily scummy on day one though, and it means flips will tell us more about him.
6. Glooble - modconfirmed to me as town.
7. Dsell - one of my former scumbuddies, and a damn good SK iirc. He's been unmemorable this game. On reading his recent posts, though, I get a town vibe. He's gone after Axxle and defended O, so he has opinions that will be helpful when people start dying.
8. Jotheonah - if he's scum, he's doing a pretty good job of it. Looks town to me so far.
9. Young Nick - I don't envy his upcoming slog.
10. Voltaire - I'll hold off on him until he posts these "thoughts" from this "reread".
11. Axxle - still think he's more likely town for reasons I've stated earlier re: the double-vote.
12. O - strong town read.
I'm gonna post this half now, then work on the next half, so I don't get too far behind the times while I'm composing.
Pre-post edit - this is as of 16 posts ago.
I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.
That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.
I'm here. Drunk. AMA.
What Grujah said. Totally drunk now, will answer any question honestly so as to prove my towniness.
Though this didn't work out so well for ehunt in MVI.
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eHal has been dismissive of the case while it wasn't up
[/quote]
What? eHalc was dismissive of a case that wasn't presented to him? How strange! /sarcasm
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Hmm, weird parallels between Grujah and Glooble.
Weird as in scummy?
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Hmm, weird parallels between Grujah and Glooble.
Weird as in scummy?
not sure? thought i'd point it out and let people see for themselves.
i could definitely see it as scum distancing, though.
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Glooble tried for a drunk AMA, I asked him a question, and he totally ignored it.
I would FOS him for that, but I'm pretty sure he just passed out at the computer a few minutes after he made the post.
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Vote Count 1.19
shraeye (4) -- Axxle, ftl, Captain_Frisk
ehunt (2) -- Eevee, jotheonah
Glooble (1) -- yuma
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (3) -- Watno, Cuzz, ashersky
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Watno (1) -- TheMunch
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- Galzria
Not Voting (8 ) -- Dsell, Grujah, ibgtennis, O, eHalcyon, ehunt, shraeye, sparky5856
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
REMINDER: sparky5856 has replaced Voltgloss
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i Have finished my reread, but haven't yet focused on the players enough to give an assessment of where my reads are pointing yet. I will send this to Robz and hopefully he can post a link to GoogleDocs or something. As to why it can't be in the thread, it is huge. Just almost a full 12 pages in Word. I know that it's size makes it more impractical as a summary that players can use to catch up, but I wanted to be thorough.
It contains an objective viewpoint/summary of everything that I considered not fluff. If you point out that I missed a "crucial post" that you made, I will kindly invite you to sit down and try to make a summary for yourself. Here is how it can be very useful, especially for day 2. Once we know the alignments of a few players, we can highlight those names in green (good=town) and red (bad=scum) and some other color if there are two factions, or something unexpected. This summary has virtually every interaction between players so you can see who defended whom, who attacked whom for what, etc.
To help organize thought/arguments/discussions that spanned multiple pages, I have a guide to some major arguments at the beginning of the document. (example: DSell-wagon [9.2, 10.1, 11.3, 12.5] means that people can find posts related to DSell's wagon on page 9 summary, topic 2. Also on page 10 topic 1, etc.)
Sometimes different arguments ran together and I've tried mostly to crosspost them in this index area. As much as possible, I tried to separate a single post with multiple topics into different "arguments" (Also sometimes in the summary I say something like "asher responds to Arg22.1" which means that his comment responds to something that was in the 1st topic of page 22's summary). I probably made some mistakes and pre-apologize.
I also have a hand-written voting record, and I'm going to type that up soon.
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he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
(Warning to new folks - next paragraph = argument about old games):
I want to point out that O made the exact same argument in MIX to get me lynched (he was power-role scum and I was town doctor in that game, although two caveats - a. I think in that other game he genuinely believed I was scum (there were two scumteams in that game so it made sense for scum to scumhunt) and b. I think in this game, despite this analogy, that O is probably town*).
I really really really really really, *gasp*, really really really really don't see the point of this. "Look O did this thing as scum before! But I think he did it because he thought I was otherscum. And I think he's town now... and..."
Vote: eHunt
You be not making much sense bro.
(other votes shraeye and whoever's pushing eHalc)
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he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
(Warning to new folks - next paragraph = argument about old games):
I want to point out that O made the exact same argument in MIX to get me lynched (he was power-role scum and I was town doctor in that game, although two caveats - a. I think in that other game he genuinely believed I was scum (there were two scumteams in that game so it made sense for scum to scumhunt) and b. I think in this game, despite this analogy, that O is probably town*).
I really really really really really, *gasp*, really really really really don't see the point of this. "Look O did this thing as scum before! But I think he did it because he thought I was otherscum. And I think he's town now... and..."
Vote: eHunt
You be not making much sense bro.
(other votes shraeye and whoever's pushing eHalc)
(what I mean is eHunt is hedging royally)
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Within a topic in a page summary (i'll look at 10.2 for example), different posts on that page are seperated by a ";". Post numbers are occasionally supplied and are given in parentheses.
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he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
(Warning to new folks - next paragraph = argument about old games):
I want to point out that O made the exact same argument in MIX to get me lynched (he was power-role scum and I was town doctor in that game, although two caveats - a. I think in that other game he genuinely believed I was scum (there were two scumteams in that game so it made sense for scum to scumhunt) and b. I think in this game, despite this analogy, that O is probably town*).
I really really really really really, *gasp*, really really really really don't see the point of this. "Look O did this thing as scum before! But I think he did it because he thought I was otherscum. And I think he's town now... and..."
Vote: eHunt
You be not making much sense bro.
(other votes shraeye and whoever's pushing eHalc)
In this post I am doing the following:
I am answering O's argument that I am scummy because I am acting differently. I am answering this by pointing out that O said I was acting differently in MIX as well. He has an incorrect conception that my default mode of being is calm and this is quite false. I am also clarifying that I am not calling O scummy by quoting MIX, since he was "scum looking for scum" in that game.
I do not see what doesn't make sense.
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he's quite different from town-ehunt in my MVI aswell, which was still quite large.
Ehunt is usually active and has a calm cool head (except when he's drunk or about to be lynched), and consistent meta. This game breaks all of that.
(Warning to new folks - next paragraph = argument about old games):
I want to point out that O made the exact same argument in MIX to get me lynched (he was power-role scum and I was town doctor in that game, although two caveats - a. I think in that other game he genuinely believed I was scum (there were two scumteams in that game so it made sense for scum to scumhunt) and b. I think in this game, despite this analogy, that O is probably town*).
I really really really really really, *gasp*, really really really really don't see the point of this. "Look O did this thing as scum before! But I think he did it because he thought I was otherscum. And I think he's town now... and..."
Vote: eHunt
You be not making much sense bro.
(other votes shraeye and whoever's pushing eHalc)
(what I mean is eHunt is hedging royally)
there's no hedge. I think O is town. However, I want to quote an argument from MIX where he was scum in order to explain why his logic on me is wrong. In quoting that I'm aware that some people are going to just skim me and think I am saying that "O is acting like he was acting in MIX" [and therefore is scum] and not just "O has the same wrong read on me that he had in MIX." Therefore I was careful to explain that this is not what I'm thinking and that I think O is town.
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eh that argument's relatively convincing actually.
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I think I'm at
Primary: Axxle
Secondary/Tertiary: Grujah/Glooble
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I will post votes. But first, part II of my list!
13. Cayvie - nothing from this game gives me a particularly strong read. I don't think her vote/unvote on O or her softclaim look particularly scummy though.
14. Shraeye - I am now getting a townread from shraeye. He's not afraid to get his opinions out there, he's not trying to hide at all. Not a sure thing or anything, but I think him a poor day one lynch.
15. Cuzz - lurking a bit, but that's normal for him as far as I can tell. I could easily see him being scum.
16. Yuma - did he come up with this soft deadline idea? That's a helpful kind of thinking. I'd just as soon keep him around.
17. igbtennis - bad vibes. reminds me way too much of scum me. says a lot of little things so he looks like he's paying attention, but no in depth analysis. he is new, and busy, but he could also easily be scum.
18. TheMunch - his exchange with Watno made both of them look kinda bad, but him worse I think. He does a lot of talking about his reasons for voting in the abstract, as if he's afraid to restate them in case he makes an inconsistency. Slight scum vibe.
19. Morgrim7 - Morgrim7. Playing kind of sane this game, but also lurky. Who the heck knows with this guy.
20. EHalcyon - I don't agree with Volt's case at all, but he is being a mite defensive about it. I don't want to lynch him though.
21. Watno - I'd like to know why you were grilling TheMunch so hard. As scummy as he looks, you look a bit fishy coming out of that exchange to, and his accusations toward you have some merit.
22. Galzria - I can never read Galz accurately. Must run in the family.
23. Captain_Frisk - Lurking, and lots of IIoA (post counts relative to average? really?) looks scummy, his lynching idea seemed ill-thought out. His contributions to the town lynch plan work in his favor, but I still think he's likely scum.
24. ehunt - not much of a read, despite how active he's been. I don't see O's point. I don't want to lynch him D1.
25. ashersky - lurky and unmemorable. I'd lynch him if consensus were leaning that way, but I don't think it is.
That being said, my top candidate is still Grujah.
2nd vote - Captain_Frisk
3rd vote - Insomniac
4th vote - TheMunch (just in case.)
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eHunt reads town, not scum.
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Jo, I totally missed your question.
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ANNOUNCEMENT: Here is a link to shraeye's document, which is now owned by me. No one else can edit it, but you can view it by clicking this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DrN7gYtmQtlLGusNEpMM6Q3GygOVAirSdLBKb3co0lI/edit
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I think I'm at
Primary: Axxle
Secondary/Tertiary: Grujah/Glooble
Reasons for Axxle? You gave reasons for Grujah and Glooble earlier (weird parallels).
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@Robz
Many thanks.
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Jo, I have a town PM this game. I can't talk about other ongoing games, but it's pretty obvious I think that I'm resistance.
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I think I'm at
Primary: Axxle
Secondary/Tertiary: Grujah/Glooble
Reasons for Axxle? You gave reasons for Grujah and Glooble earlier (weird parallels).
earlier i voted him for lurking. since then he hasn't really done anything to make him look better to me, and this case on ehunt seems totes fabricated.
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Just updating my list, trying to get this started. Reasons for 1 and 2 provided earlier, for lack of a better option 3 Frisk is back on the list but at the lowest spot.
Vote: jotheonah
2nd vote: Watno
3rd vote: Captain_Frisk
For ease of reading, can you give those reasons again, or at least link them?
Vote: ehunt
2nd vote - Watno
3rd vote - eHalcyon
P.S. I suggest this format so we don't accidentally vote with our secondary and tertiary votes.
Reasons?
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Same to anyone else who gave picks without reasoning.
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Vote: Insom
Agree I haven't been memorable to date, but I have been following as well as I can. I haven't had much too comment, but I am good with a soft deadline/plurality vote if we don't let it get manipulated into lynching with a weak minority of votes.
On Insom, the way he's been pushing on both eHs seems kind of scummy to me; neither eHs strike me as particularly scummy, but more just easy targets. Insom on the other hand has had no pressure on him at all, for some reason.
Secondary and tertiary votes go to Glooble/Grujah, for oft-quoted reasons.
I get town reads from Shraeye, Yuma, and axxle. The Shraeye wagon seems scummy, and am looking at ftl there.
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Vote: Insom
Agree I haven't been memorable to date, but I have been following as well as I can. I haven't had much too comment, but I am good with a soft deadline/plurality vote if we don't let it get manipulated into lynching with a weak minority of votes.
On Insom, the way he's been pushing on both eHs seems kind of scummy to me; neither eHs strike me as particularly scummy, but more just easy targets. Insom on the other hand has had no pressure on him at all, for some reason.
Secondary and tertiary votes go to Glooble/Grujah, for oft-quoted reasons.
I get town reads from Shraeye, Yuma, and axxle. The Shraeye wagon seems scummy, and am looking at ftl there.
Your read is wrong, but I respect it.
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NOTE: Voltgloss has been replaced by sparky5856. The introductory information post will be updated to reflect this. Please remember that some roles and alignments may or may not have been modeled on specific player's characteristics, metas, or forum histories and as such, keep in mind that sparky5856 was originally Voltgloss.
Hello everyone! I love talking, so I decided to join this lovely 50-page debacle we got going on here. And I have read very little of it thus far. Looks like I got an assignment tonight; read through 50 pages of arguing to see who has screwed up the most so far ;D
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Hey Guys, been a long time without any talking going on here. Good to see it lively again. I'll get on the multiple vote train:
Vote: watno (my vote is already there, I believe)
2nd vote: eHalcyon (I agree with the notion that ehal calling out volt for not actually having an argument feels scummy)
3rd vote: O
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@sparky
ANNOUNCEMENT: Here is a link to shraeye's document, which is now owned by me. No one else can edit it, but you can view it by clicking this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DrN7gYtmQtlLGusNEpMM6Q3GygOVAirSdLBKb3co0lI/edit
You can read this slightly shorter summary if you want.
Another question to everyone. what is the lynch agreement we have right now? I thought yuma said that we were going with a soft deadline of Wednesday at 11:59pm, using a plurality of votes. Is there a minimum on that plurality (I suggested 8 earlier)? When did we decide that we'd give 1 more day (until Thur 11:59pm) for others to mimic softdeadline lynch or be suspected for holding us up. That part is definitely new. And the triple-vote system was used to see which players are viable candidates for lynches, so people offering up alternatives know if it's possible to succeed or not. Now it seems like people are counting the triple vote all as votes worth 1 and adding up the grand total to see who is at plurality on Wednesday??? That is also definitely new.
I am for soft-deadline Wednesday with plurality lynch, then spend the next two days sorting any last-minute mess out. I do not like using all votes of a triple vote to determine that plurality, nor do I like the deadline of Thursday to fall in line with the plurality decision that is reached. This seemed to move quickly from a system designed to help to a system that was even more confusing, and slightly Draconian.
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Yeah I don't understand the need for backup votes, that just seems like unnecessarily complicating the issue.
Here is how I hope things run down:
Everyone starts getting votes down now through Tuesday night.
I imagine at that point votes will be pretty spread out, from that point until our soft deadline (Wednesday, 11:59 pm) votes will likely drift toward larger wagons. Hopefully we reach either a lynch or a plurality.
From there we have 24 hours for town to lynch the plurality vote getter (especially need to see the votes from those who said they supported the plurality)
Friday--if we are still going, I for one--and I would encourage others to do this as well--will abandon my vote on whatever wagon I was then on and relentlessly push for a lynch for and vote for those who prevented a lynch from occurring (again with particular attention toward those who said they would be online with a plurality lynch, but for whatever reason did not participate in moving it forward).
My current vote is on Glooble. It will stay there for now.
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Yeah I don't understand the need for backup votes, that just seems like unnecessarily complicating the issue.
Here is how I hope things run down:
Everyone starts getting votes down now through Tuesday night.
I imagine at that point votes will be pretty spread out, from that point until our soft deadline (Wednesday, 11:59 pm) votes will likely drift toward larger wagons. Hopefully we reach either a lynch or a plurality.
From there we have 24 hours for town to lynch the plurality vote getter (especially need to see the votes from those who said they supported the plurality)
Friday--if we are still going, I for one--and I would encourage others to do this as well--will abandon my vote on whatever wagon I was then on and relentlessly push for a lynch for and vote for those who prevented a lynch from occurring (again with particular attention toward those who said they would be online with a plurality lynch, but for whatever reason did not participate in moving it forward).
My current vote is on Glooble. It will stay there for now.
That sounds reasonable, but I think there were some supporters of soft-deadlines with reservations. Like people who said "if plurality lands on my strongest town read, I'm not going to vote for him," I can't recall who they are.
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I am ok with yuma's plan with one exception, if someone hasn't been on the forums in the 24 hour window then you don't pursue them relentlessly stuff comes up, let's be at least a little forgiving.
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I'm still not comfortable with listing three people in order, I'll do it soon, but am posting my basic train of thought now so I'm not dropping a bombshell when I do vote: I am suspicious of Insomniac because of his super non-committing position on me from earlier today (today IRL) as well as his "well, voltgloss is a smart guy even if he didn't actually say a good case so there must be a good case somewhere" arg against ehalcyon. I am annoyed at Axxle for repeated bad arguments at me, but unlike the Insom-business, that isn't really a case in and of itself (but I'm going to review him). Other than that I think my whole wagon is town except Insomniac and possibly eevee, but I'm not likely to vote for eevee before either of those other two. In the Glooble-Grujah wars I sympathize with Glooble, which makes me want to vote for Grujah. My view of basically everyone "new" is clouded and run-together and needs to be reviewed before I vote; in particular, I don't understand the Watno/Munch dispute at all. I am still suspicious of shraeye for his personality change from previous games, which I don't think has been addressed. I am a little suspicious of voltaire again but don't have a real case, I am unlikely to vote there. I am not suspicious of ehalc (see my previous post on this) but I'm willing to give voltgloss/sparky the benefit of the doubt on this instead of assuming voltgloss/sparky is scummy for pushing the case.
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I'm still not comfortable with listing three people in order, I'll do it soon, but am posting my basic train of thought now so I'm not dropping a bombshell when I do vote: I am suspicious of Insomniac because of his super non-committing position on me from earlier today (today IRL) as well as his "well, voltgloss is a smart guy even if he didn't actually say a good case so there must be a good case somewhere" arg against ehalcyon. I am annoyed at Axxle for repeated bad arguments at me, but unlike the Insom-business, that isn't really a case in and of itself (but I'm going to review him). Other than that I think my whole wagon is town except Insomniac and possibly eevee, but I'm not likely to vote for eevee before either of those other two. In the Glooble-Grujah wars I sympathize with Glooble, which makes me want to vote for Grujah. My view of basically everyone "new" is clouded and run-together and needs to be reviewed before I vote; in particular, I don't understand the Watno/Munch dispute at all. I am still suspicious of shraeye for his personality change from previous games, which I don't think has been addressed. I am a little suspicious of voltaire again but don't have a real case, I am unlikely to vote there. I am not suspicious of ehalc (see my previous post on this) but I'm willing to give voltgloss/sparky the benefit of the doubt on this instead of assuming voltgloss/sparky is scummy for pushing the case.
...You need to stop pushing people that argue with you, you have this tendancy to believe anybody that puts any pressure on anyone or argues with you at all must be scum, and your always wrong.
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I'm going through the list of players and rereading those who have posted little. I am also quickly skimming through players who have posted a lot. And I'll count how many posts were made pre-game (that is, I will subtract posts made before the day 1 post on Sept 15, 10:57am MDT).
Note that I am not watching as new posts come in, so some of these counts might become outdated by the time they get posted.
ftl -- 6 posts pregame, 23 after that. Near the start, seemed overly interested in catching the doublevoter. His explanation was that he thought all doublevoters were scum. Although his post count is low, the content of his posts is above average in this game.
Voltgloss -- 13 posts pregame, 25 after that. There is some fluff, some content, but nothing that stands out in the slightest. Most interesting posts were the ones at the end, where he announced a case on me and did not deliver (but that is probably more to do with real life things, so that's not something to read into). I still don't like his yuma gambit, where he voted for yuma and then later unvoted and FOS'd the people who voted yuma (see post #550 and the posts that follow on that page).
Eevee -- 7/47 (this format should be clear, right? the second number is posts after gamestart, not total posts). This is enough posts that I don't want to actual re-read. I get a town vibe from him though.
Grujah -- 11/15. He starts the meta discussion, of which I am not a fan. Votes for cayvie based on misunderstanding of her claim. Few posts, mostly content-less IMO.
Insomniac -- 11/39. About a quarter of those 39 posts were made recently, in conversation about his vote picks.
Glooble -- 6/16. A couple of bigger posts just giving thoughts on the players, but still mostly contentless. 3/45. Null read.
jotheonah -- 11/90. Too much to reread.
Young_Nick -- 9/13. I know he was V/LA for a good portion of the early game, but if he started following when he got in he should have been able to contribute to conversations then. Plus, he just complains about nobody giving him summaries. Just go back and read, dude. The ONLY post I see that has even a bit of content in it seems to be one where he muses about lynching Axxle due to his doublevote, on the basis of yuma's suggestion. That's it. I really don't like this -- he's had time to catch up, or even without that he could have contributed to current conversations. Instead, he opted to continue lurking. Or, to use the new catch phrase, "actilurking".
Voltaire -- 12/65. I skimmed through and nothing stands out. Meh.
Axxle -- 6/26. Not much content, though I still have a slight town vibe from him. I don't know.
O -- 1/33. Posts are O-like in general. I get town vibe from him.
cayvie -- 9/67. Re-reading doesn't help much; I almost never get a scumvibe from cayvie. I don't here either. Her "can't be on townie wagon" is weird. It's a neutral thing, but I don't know what to make of it. Other than that... yeah, town vibe...
shraeye -- 3/56. Seemed weirdly focused on O for a majority of the day. I haven't looked at his document yet. Other than that, neutral.
Cuzz -- 3/20. Relatively content-less.
yuma -- 4/53. Still neutral to me.
ibgtennis -- 1/9. So, so content-less.
TheMunch -- 1/46. Not going to re-read at this time. Still feel he is a bit suspicious based on earlier exchange.
Morgrim7 -- 6/14. Morgrim is Morgrim. :\
eHalcyon -- 9/84. Not going to re-read myself.
Watno -- 1/32. Mostly neutral. I think his exchange with TheMunch after my own discussion with Munch looks overly aggressive.
Galzria -- 30/44. Has posted a lot less than I thought. I think his "I'm going to lurk" snarkiness (I kind of want to label it a tantrum) in the early game is a bit weird. Generally neutral on him anyway.
Captain_Frisk -- 6/41. Posts do seem relatively content-less.
ehunt -- 3/63. When ehunt made his "I'm going to post once a day" post, I thought it was clear that it was once per real life day, not once per game day. Rereading it now, it is obvious that it meant once per real life day. So FOS: people who thought it was once per game day.
In general, ehunt reads town to me. His "give me an item" thing was a little weird, but no weirder than cayvie's lynch thing. O wanted people to reread ehunt... nothing looks particularly scummy to me, actually.
Hm, one statement that is a bit weird is #694 where he says you shouldn't confirm people as townies because of a cult, even if you are about to be lynched. I mean, I can kind of seeing that making sense, but I think it would be better for people to divulge that info, and the rest of us just have to bear in mind that the info might not be good. He makes the concession for when they are about to be lynched, in #697, but I think it makes sense either way. Meh.
I'll also note that, from re-read, I think ehunt and Galzria seem to be buddying a little bit. That's not worth any suspicion, but it's something to remember if one of them flips scum.
I'm not sure what you're seeing, O.
ashersky -- 1/19. Not much content, but he is semi V/LA so I guess it's forgiveable. The "restart RVS" comment was weird.
Summary
Suspicious of the following, for not really contributing at all:
ftl, Grujah, Glooble, Young_Nick, Cuzz, ibgtennis, Morgrim (but Morgrim is Morgrim), Captain_Frisk
Suspicious of the following, but these suspicions may be tainted by OMGUS:
TheMunch, Voltgloss, Insomniac
Robz, can you prod TheMunch please? In the time I took to write this, TheMunch came back.
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K guys, looks like it might be time for me to be more active again as I finally feel like I have a good read.
I strongly encourage everyone to reread everything that Galzria has posted today. His content has been mostly taking a stance against lurkers and hopping on/starting a number of (I would call them) "easy" wagons. Most recently, eHalc for overreacting to Insom, but also Axxle, O, and ibgtennis for lurking.
Very early on, he has an interesting post in which he talks about how he's been long aware of how he acts as both scum and town, and that he can't escape that meta. However, he does not read as confident scum nor is he universally-suspected (town). In the same post, he's VERY hedgy, just crazy hedgy on 3 different people. He's said in the past that some level of hedging is a town-read for him.
All of this makes it seem to me that Galz is scum trying to change (or avoid) his scum meta. He has posted a lot but his content is not that great, even for D1.
This is the best read I think I've had so far.
First Vote: Galzria
Second Vote: Ashersky (Little content despite having RL reasons to lurk)
Third Vote: Grujah for actually lurking hardcore.
Here is the post I was referencing from Galz:
Well I disappear for a day and you all get serious.
Thoughts:
Shraeye doesn't seem scummy over those posts, and I really have a hard time seeing anything he posted as a legitimate "scumslip". That said, his reactions WERE a bit more confrontational than anything he ever posted in M-IX, and certainly it doesn't match to the personality I know in Diplomacy. It may be as good as Abby other vote if nothing has been found by deadline, but I don't think it's a good press right now. Certainly going to be watching a bit more closely.
eHunts posts on the other hand really did rub me the wrong way, but I would be hard pressed to say exactly why. I don't know if it's tone related or content related. Well, it's not exactly content related. I don't agree with everything he's said, but I do agree with some. It's just... His inflection? His assertiveness? I don't know. But something about the way he's said what he has puts me on edge. Still, not going to vote for him now because maybe it really is just the construction of his posts that bug me. Certainly he seemed scummy in past games to me and was town, so I'll try to filter any reads I have on him (especially gut reads and not content reads) through the "is that just how I read eHunt" lense.
Joth has been leaning back towards his sarcastic days, and I'm not sure how to read it. It's stood out to me though, but I always have to be careful here. Joth has never actually been Mafia, despite being in a number of games, so all of my reads on him of being scum to date have been wrong (I pegged him as scum D1 in M-III, but he was SK) Still, this Joth seems a little edgy to me... So I'll be keeping an eye on his posts.
Nobody else has really jumped out at me. For the people saying (and I notice this coming from mostly new players) that "meta-information means little because people can change the way they play at anytime" - Quite bluntly, you're wrong. You may subconsciously try, hell you may consciously try - but it isn't that simple. People have certain tendencies as both town and scum that, no matter how hard they try to change them, still come across in their posts. When I'm scum, I'm very confident. Town has a tendency to trust me almost universally. When I'm town, I get suspected a LOT more, and always seem very scummy to at least a handful of people (often townies). I've known this meta about myself since M-III. I've actively tried to change it from both standpoints (being scum Abe being town). At the end of the day however, the meta usually holds true. The same is true for my reads on Robz. I can nearly always peg him correctly. And Robz is very, very good at reading Voltgloss. None of us want to be locked into a meta, but there are always little things throughout every game that are consistent matches to a scum/town personality for any given player. And they're things that the player simply can't help.
Lastly, card-naming: Generally I think that it's a bad idea en-masse. However, I'm not sure that claiming on your death bed is detrimental to town. I was scum in BMMM and we were warned about card-claiming, flavor claiming,side claiming, etc. At the end of the game however, we scum had no information about any such claims that would've helped us. Certain town members however, did. In RMM-I and RMM-II we debated card claiming, but again I'm not sure that scum had any more information that would've made such claims useful than various members of the town. My point is, I think that putting the information out there (which is likely to be revealed upon death, although we can get that clarified) before the hammer falls is *probably* going to be more beneficial to town than not. Still, I think each person is different and the final decision should be left to them.
And again I'd encourage everyone to reread everything he's written and form your own reads.
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Also my second and third votes are really not that serious, so don't put much stock in them at this point.
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I'm still not comfortable with listing three people in order, I'll do it soon, but am posting my basic train of thought now so I'm not dropping a bombshell when I do vote: I am suspicious of Insomniac because of his super non-committing position on me from earlier today (today IRL) as well as his "well, voltgloss is a smart guy even if he didn't actually say a good case so there must be a good case somewhere" arg against ehalcyon. I am annoyed at Axxle for repeated bad arguments at me, but unlike the Insom-business, that isn't really a case in and of itself (but I'm going to review him). Other than that I think my whole wagon is town except Insomniac and possibly eevee, but I'm not likely to vote for eevee before either of those other two. In the Glooble-Grujah wars I sympathize with Glooble, which makes me want to vote for Grujah. My view of basically everyone "new" is clouded and run-together and needs to be reviewed before I vote; in particular, I don't understand the Watno/Munch dispute at all. I am still suspicious of shraeye for his personality change from previous games, which I don't think has been addressed. I am a little suspicious of voltaire again but don't have a real case, I am unlikely to vote there. I am not suspicious of ehalc (see my previous post on this) but I'm willing to give voltgloss/sparky the benefit of the doubt on this instead of assuming voltgloss/sparky is scummy for pushing the case.
...You need to stop pushing people that argue with you, you have this tendancy to believe anybody that puts any pressure on anyone or argues with you at all must be scum, and your always wrong.
I'd like you to cite other examples of this "tendency" and where it wound up going wrong. For example, in the post you are quoting I say my wagon is town, except for you and possibly Axxle/Eevee. I don't believe I have this tendency at all (except when my wagon really is scum, e.g. MIX and MVI, no regrets from either of those games).
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Robz, can you prod TheMunch please? In the time I took to write this, TheMunch came back.
Sorry, wasn't trying to lurk. No one was talking about anything this weekend and I came back when everyone else did. I'm interested why you specifically wanted me prodded (for I assume not talking despite the fact that no one was talking).
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Robz, can you prod TheMunch please? In the time I took to write this, TheMunch came back.
Sorry, wasn't trying to lurk. No one was talking about anything this weekend and I came back when everyone else did. I'm interested why you specifically wanted me prodded (for I assume not talking despite the fact that no one was talking).
Your last post was on the 21st, which is singificantly far back. Everyone else had posted by today, unless I missed someone. Morgrim, possibly, but he posted on the 22nd and, well, he's Morgrim. Maybe Cuzz? He also posted on the 22nd.
So basically, you had been away for a day longer than others.
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(for the record I do think I have the converse of the problem that Insomniac says I have - namely, if scum say they have a town read on me or they attack people who are voting for me, I have a hard time seeing them as scum, e.g. O on day 3 of MVIII, theorel in MVI)
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Vote Count 1.20
shraeye (2) -- ftl, Captain_Frisk
ehunt (4) -- Eevee, jotheonah, Axxle
Glooble (1) -- yuma
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (2) -- Watno, Cuzz
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Watno (1) -- TheMunch
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- Galzria
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
Galzria (1) -- Dsell
Not Voting (7) -- Grujah, ibgtennis, O, eHalcyon, ehunt, shraeye, sparky5856
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
Cayvie,
I think I'm at
Primary: Axxle
Secondary/Tertiary: Grujah/Glooble
I did not count this as an official vote. If your intention was to vote for Axxle, please use Vote: Axxle in bold.
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51 pages into Day 1 and the Vote Count looks like that. Wow.
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Ok, looking at all the votes, many are in favor of lynching eHalcyon and ehunt. Should we follow through and lynch? I am still up for Grujah, but I would go for any of these, we are coming up dangerously close to the deadline.
51 pages into Day 1 and the Vote Count looks like that. Wow.
I know. Everyone is voting for everyone else :)
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Ok, looking at all the votes, many are in favor of lynching eHalcyon and ehunt. Should we follow through and lynch? I am still up for Grujah, but I would go for any of these, we are coming up dangerously close to the deadline.
51 pages into Day 1 and the Vote Count looks like that. Wow.
I know. Everyone is voting for everyone else :)
So. Opportunistic.
At the risk of sounding like I am directing powers... If we have a vig or a cop, Morgrim might be a good target. Lynching him is pointless there is no way to read him, meaning that, if he flips town, the wagon is still essentially useless for info. OTOH, we can't exactly leave him alone if he is scum. He was sounding saner at the start of the game, but he has not been any more helpful than usual. If Morgrim weren't Morgrim, he would be a prime lynch target right now. As is, he is getting by on his reputation.
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Vote: eHalcyon
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Did people miss my case against Galz because it's at the end of the last page? Because no one has responded to it in any way.
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Did people miss my case against Galz because it's at the end of the last page? Because no one has responded to it in any way.
I had missed it! It actually seems like a pretty good case.
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Vote: eHalcyon
So you're telling me you don't find Morgrim frustrating?
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Ok, looking at all the votes, many are in favor of lynching eHalcyon and ehunt. Should we follow through and lynch? I am still up for Grujah, but I would go for any of these, we are coming up dangerously close to the deadline.
51 pages into Day 1 and the Vote Count looks like that. Wow.
I know. Everyone is voting for everyone else :)
So. Opportunistic.
At the risk of sounding like I am directing powers... If we have a vig or a cop, Morgrim might be a good target. Lynching him is pointless there is no way to read him, meaning that, if he flips town, the wagon is still essentially useless for info. OTOH, we can't exactly leave him alone if he is scum. He was sounding saner at the start of the game, but he has not been any more helpful than usual. If Morgrim weren't Morgrim, he would be a prime lynch target right now. As is, he is getting by on his reputation.
Well, coming up so close to the deadline, you kinda have to be opportunistic. We really don't have much time, and I am not going to be on for the lynch, so for me it is pretty much today and the next few mornings to decide who to lynch. You guys have more time, being in the timezone that you are in, but I think it is best to get a solid vote on now. Which is why, I think, I'm gonna Vote: ehunt, because I:
-Support his lynch
-Think that as of now, the bigger wagons are, the better. We need a good lynch choice.
-We are coming up on the deadline.
-Believe that he or eHal is the most accepted target by the majority.
So pretty much right now... I'm ok with most lynches and will follow the crowd so that this day doesn't end in a no lynch...
PPE: seeing joth's vote on eHal, well, I support lynching eHal too...
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Ok, looking at all the votes, many are in favor of lynching eHalcyon and ehunt. Should we follow through and lynch? I am still up for Grujah, but I would go for any of these, we are coming up dangerously close to the deadline.
51 pages into Day 1 and the Vote Count looks like that. Wow.
I know. Everyone is voting for everyone else :)
So. Opportunistic.
At the risk of sounding like I am directing powers... If we have a vig or a cop, Morgrim might be a good target. Lynching him is pointless there is no way to read him, meaning that, if he flips town, the wagon is still essentially useless for info. OTOH, we can't exactly leave him alone if he is scum. He was sounding saner at the start of the game, but he has not been any more helpful than usual. If Morgrim weren't Morgrim, he would be a prime lynch target right now. As is, he is getting by on his reputation.
Well, coming up so close to the deadline, you kinda have to be opportunistic. We really don't have much time, and I am not going to be on for the lynch, so for me it is pretty much today and the next few mornings to decide who to lynch. You guys have more time, being in the timezone that you are in, but I think it is best to get a solid vote on now. Which is why, I think, I'm gonna Vote: ehunt, because I:
-Support his lynch
-Think that as of now, the bigger wagons are, the better. We need a good lynch choice.
-We are coming up on the deadline.
-Believe that he or eHal is the most accepted target by the majority.
So pretty much right now... I'm ok with most lynches and will follow the crowd so that this day doesn't end in a no lynch...
PPE: seeing joth's vote on eHal, well, I support lynching eHal too...
"I think we should lynch these people because other people seem to want to lynch them. I'm willing to lynch pretty much everyone."
It's not new from you, but it's still a terrible approach.
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Did people miss my case against Galz because it's at the end of the last page? Because no one has responded to it in any way.
Decent case.
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Did people miss my case against Galz because it's at the end of the last page? Because no one has responded to it in any way.
I found galz's opposition to me to be sorta townish and then I found it even more town when he stopped opposing me. But this is narcissistic. I'm happy to re-evaluate galz, I have homework on like six people now.
Morgrim - same question I asked Insomniac. You can't get away with saying "I'm voting ehunt because other people are." You need to explain why you think I am scummy if you are going to vote for me.
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OK,
vote: Insomniac. His non-case cases on me and ehalcyon earlier today were certainly the scummiest play I've seen in this town. Go back and read the dialogue between him and me, starting with where I ask him a simple question: if you say you're voting ehunt "for information," what information do you get when ehunt flips?
my secondary is Grujah, and I don't have a tertiary.
my feelings on other people:
I am sketched out by Voltaire's "are you joking" business with Axxle but have not been able to quantify exactly why I dislike this into a case and continue to think Voltaire's summary-of-the-game-that-left-Voltaire-out was probably a town move. Axxle's case on me reads to me like a wrong and over-eager townie (which is unfortunate since he has a double-vote...). Galzria this game reads to me like a right but under-eager townie. In spite of this, strong town read on DSell reads to me like town-except-for-this. I think Galzria's "I'm going to lurk because you'll never punish someone" was a genuine angry-fit which reflected my own mood at that particular moment as well.
I still haven't done my homework on sorting out the new people.
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OK,
vote: Insomniac. His non-case cases on me and ehalcyon earlier today were certainly the scummiest play I've seen in this town. Go back and read the dialogue between him and me, starting with where I ask him a simple question: if you say you're voting ehunt "for information," what information do you get when ehunt flips?
my secondary is Grujah, and I don't have a tertiary.
my feelings on other people:
I am sketched out by Voltaire's "are you joking" business with Axxle but have not been able to quantify exactly why I dislike this into a case and continue to think Voltaire's summary-of-the-game-that-left-Voltaire-out was probably a town move. Axxle's case on me reads to me like a wrong and over-eager townie (which is unfortunate since he has a double-vote...). Galzria this game reads to me like a right but under-eager townie. In spite of this, strong town read on DSell reads to me like town-except-for-this. I think Galzria's "I'm going to lurk because you'll never punish someone" was a genuine angry-fit which reflected my own mood at that particular moment as well.
I still haven't done my homework on sorting out the new people.
But "scummy" play on day 1 has just nearly always led to nothing.
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to clarify: Insomniac sees a small but growing wagon on me and wants to find a way to be on the wagon while being off the wagon so he can hedge based on how I flip. So he puts me as a "second vote" (so it's not clear if it will matter or not) and emphasizes that he's doing it for the "information." Translation: Insomniac wants you to know that he is willing to vote for ehunt, but not so willing to vote for ehunt that he deserves any of the blame for it at all.
To me this is much scummier than people who overeagerly push wrong cases. It's intentionally pushing no case at all in order to have your cake and eat it too.
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But "scummy" play on day 1 has just nearly always led to nothing.
you're saying I should be looking among the quieter people (e.g. Galzria) instead of the more vocal people? OK, maybe I have tunnel vision at this point. Are there any quiet people besides Galzria to talk about? How do you feel about the munch/watno/cuzz/voltaire/ashersky contingent? What about ftl?
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But "scummy" play on day 1 has just nearly always led to nothing.
you're saying I should be looking among the quieter people (e.g. Galzria) instead of the more vocal people? OK, maybe I have tunnel vision at this point. Are there any quiet people besides Galzria to talk about? How do you feel about the munch/watno/cuzz/voltaire/ashersky contingent? What about ftl?
As I indicated in my Galzria-case post, Ashersky and Grujah are my next best scum reads but they're quite a lot weaker. I have a somewhat town read on TheMunch and ftl, but I have very little read on Cuzz, V, and watno. Watno has had such strong arguments today that, though, that we will probably learn a lot about him when we see the flips of those he's had conflicts with.
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i'm always down to lynch galzria.
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Vote: eHalcyon
So you're telling me you don't find Morgrim frustrating?
Nah, I'm telling you I find you scummy. You OMGUS'd me and disguised it as a non-OMGUS vote. And just now you did the same thing to Morgrim7. But whatever your stated reasons, you keep voting for everyone who expresses suspicion at you.
You're rabidly attacking the idea that we should just lynch the popular wagons. Why? Because you're trying to head off the lynch landing on you, and fighting it now is easier and more townie-looking than fighting it when you're at L-Whatever.
Morgrim is actually making some sense to me this game.
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i'm always down to lynch galzria.
always, as in every game?
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Vote: eHalcyon
So you're telling me you don't find Morgrim frustrating?
Nah, I'm telling you I find you scummy. You OMGUS'd me and disguised it as a non-OMGUS vote. And just now you did the same thing to Morgrim7. But whatever your stated reasons, you keep voting for everyone who expresses suspicion at you.
You're rabidly attacking the idea that we should just lynch the popular wagons. Why? Because you're trying to head off the lynch landing on you, and fighting it now is easier and more townie-looking than fighting it when you're at L-Whatever.
Morgrim is actually making some sense to me this game.
Where did I OMGUS you?
And did you read the large post I made on the previous page? My thoughts on Morgrim are not OMGUS.
If I am lynched, how will your reads change when I flip town?
Morgrim continues to make no sense. Jumping on popular wagons because they are popular is horrible.
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Vote: eHalcyon
So you're telling me you don't find Morgrim frustrating?
Nah, I'm telling you I find you scummy. You OMGUS'd me and disguised it as a non-OMGUS vote. And just now you did the same thing to Morgrim7. But whatever your stated reasons, you keep voting for everyone who expresses suspicion at you.
You're rabidly attacking the idea that we should just lynch the popular wagons. Why? Because you're trying to head off the lynch landing on you, and fighting it now is easier and more townie-looking than fighting it when you're at L-Whatever.
Morgrim is actually making some sense to me this game.
Where did I OMGUS you?
And did you read the large post I made on the previous page? My thoughts on Morgrim are not OMGUS.
If I am lynched, how will your reads change when I flip town?
Morgrim continues to make no sense. Jumping on popular wagons because they are popular is horrible.
Ok, looking back, you did not OMGUS me. Sorry about that.
Morgrim is looking for a viable lynch, a compromise lynch. That's a fine thing to do when you're 50 pages into a thread on Day 1 and there are no significant wagons. It's even a necessary thing to do.
I'm really tired of Day 1.
But even if Morgrim's case is terrible, your response to it still reads scummy to me. I'm not always good at articulating my reads, but that doesn't mean I'm not confident in them. With you eHalc, it's just that several times now I've had the experience "Huh, that's a little scummy" in reference to the timing and content of your posts, and I think those are adding up for me.
I'm not sure what I'll get out of it if you flip town. Since 10 more people will have had to vote for you by then, I'm sure some of them will be scummy.
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Vote: eHalcyon
So you're telling me you don't find Morgrim frustrating?
Nah, I'm telling you I find you scummy. You OMGUS'd me and disguised it as a non-OMGUS vote. And just now you did the same thing to Morgrim7. But whatever your stated reasons, you keep voting for everyone who expresses suspicion at you.
You're rabidly attacking the idea that we should just lynch the popular wagons. Why? Because you're trying to head off the lynch landing on you, and fighting it now is easier and more townie-looking than fighting it when you're at L-Whatever.
Morgrim is actually making some sense to me this game.
Whoa, I just read this more closely and it looks even worse.
1. I haven't voted for you, nor for Morgrim, so what "disguised vote" are you talking about?
2. You say I keep voting for people who suspected me. What? I have voted like once in this game. What in the world are you talking about?
3. The one time I voted, I voted for you, jo. And then you OMGUS'd me (not with an actual vote, but you called me scummy for it).
4. I haven't attacked the idea of lynching popular wagons. I have attacked the idea of lynching purely for informational purposes, specifically info based on early wagons.
What the heck, jo?
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Morgrim is looking for a viable lynch, a compromise lynch. That's a fine thing to do when you're 50 pages into a thread on Day 1 and there are no significant wagons. It's even a necessary thing to do.
Um, did you read Morgrim's earlier post where he basically said "I'm willing to lynch pretty much anyone, even though I think many of these people are town"?
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Morgrim is looking for a viable lynch, a compromise lynch. That's a fine thing to do when you're 50 pages into a thread on Day 1 and there are no significant wagons. It's even a necessary thing to do.
Um, did you read Morgrim's earlier post where he basically said "I'm willing to lynch pretty much anyone, even though I think many of these people are town"?
I think he meant it as in "willing to lynch them if that's what it takes to avoid no lynch." Which is not that radical a thing. A lynch is better than a No Lynch and an actual majority is looking unlikely right now.
And yes, I WAS remembering some things wrong. It's a very big thread.
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I will post votes. But first, part II of my list!
13. Cayvie - nothing from this game gives me a particularly strong read. I don't think her vote/unvote on O or her softclaim look particularly scummy though.
14. Shraeye - I am now getting a townread from shraeye. He's not afraid to get his opinions out there, he's not trying to hide at all. Not a sure thing or anything, but I think him a poor day one lynch.
15. Cuzz - lurking a bit, but that's normal for him as far as I can tell. I could easily see him being scum.
16. Yuma - did he come up with this soft deadline idea? That's a helpful kind of thinking. I'd just as soon keep him around.
17. igbtennis - bad vibes. reminds me way too much of scum me. says a lot of little things so he looks like he's paying attention, but no in depth analysis. he is new, and busy, but he could also easily be scum.
18. TheMunch - his exchange with Watno made both of them look kinda bad, but him worse I think. He does a lot of talking about his reasons for voting in the abstract, as if he's afraid to restate them in case he makes an inconsistency. Slight scum vibe.
19. Morgrim7 - Morgrim7. Playing kind of sane this game, but also lurky. Who the heck knows with this guy.
20. EHalcyon - I don't agree with Volt's case at all, but he is being a mite defensive about it. I don't want to lynch him though.
21. Watno - I'd like to know why you were grilling TheMunch so hard. As scummy as he looks, you look a bit fishy coming out of that exchange to, and his accusations toward you have some merit.
22. Galzria - I can never read Galz accurately. Must run in the family.
23. Captain_Frisk - Lurking, and lots of IIoA (post counts relative to average? really?) looks scummy, his lynching idea seemed ill-thought out. His contributions to the town lynch plan work in his favor, but I still think he's likely scum.
24. ehunt - not much of a read, despite how active he's been. I don't see O's point. I don't want to lynch him D1.
25. ashersky - lurky and unmemorable. I'd lynch him if consensus were leaning that way, but I don't think it is.
That being said, my top candidate is still Grujah.
2nd vote - Captain_Frisk
3rd vote - Insomniac
4th vote - TheMunch (just in case.)
i do say a lot of little things to make it look like i'm paying attention, but i would say they have *medium* depth, maybe? but i don't wanna get lynched for lurking, so i do my best. i really just don't have reads right now. maybe it's because i'm bad/new, or maybe it's because i haven't committed enough?
and @ftl...i don't know why i'm the posterboy for lurking. I was V/LA for the first stage weekend of the game (after which there were many pages of posts), V/lA this weekend, and have nothing to say about the substantial posts regarding previous games. that's some straight bull.
so, votes as of now Vote: ftl for some hypocritical lurker scumminess as of now. trying to deflect his old identity elsewhere
2nd: young nick: he's had enough time to contribute something and has barely done anything. his exclamation points seem like fake-friendly and awkwardly forced.
3rd votes...eHunt for seeming way too defensive, although, to be fair, i'd do that if i were town-eHunt with the annoying wagon he faced. so i'm 50/50 on this, but like someonelse said (insomniac?), there would be good informational value from his lynch, and all things being equal that might prove fruitful
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I'll Unvote for now, but I still get a vibe off eHalc.
I'll vote: Galzria.
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I'll Unvote for now, but I still get a vibe off eHalc.
I'll vote: Galzria.
I'll take over for you joth, Vote: eHalc. I'm still getting a vibe from watno, who has been quiet for a while now. I dont want to just jump on eHalc just cause hes being the most active but every time he posts something I get a little more suspicious of his intentions. I have started feeling this way ever since he was against (and is still against, he just reiterated it) the idea of gaining information from lynches. I dont like people that are against gaining information that is helpful to town.
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Morgrim is looking for a viable lynch, a compromise lynch. That's a fine thing to do when you're 50 pages into a thread on Day 1 and there are no significant wagons. It's even a necessary thing to do.
Um, did you read Morgrim's earlier post where he basically said "I'm willing to lynch pretty much anyone, even though I think many of these people are town"?
I think he meant it as in "willing to lynch them if that's what it takes to avoid no lynch." Which is not that radical a thing. A lynch is better than a No Lynch and an actual majority is looking unlikely right now.
And yes, I WAS remembering some things wrong. It's a very big thread.
Morgrim posted that 4 days ago. Deadline wasn't pressing. Being willing to lynch just about everyone isn't helpful.
If he wants to adopt a more helpful meta, he could be more active and actually make some cases. The whole game he's pretty much just sheeped others suspicions. I have to give him the Morgrim pass but I don't have to like it.
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I'll Unvote for now, but I still get a vibe off eHalc.
I'll vote: Galzria.
I'll take over for you joth, Vote: eHalc. I'm still getting a vibe from watno, who has been quiet for a while now. I dont want to just jump on eHalc just cause hes being the most active but every time he posts something I get a little more suspicious of his intentions. I have started feeling this way ever since he was against (and is still against, he just reiterated it) the idea of gaining information from lynches. I dont like people that are against gaining information that is helpful to town.
I thought we cleared up your misunderstanding of my position. Either you've forgotten, or you really are trying to twist my words.
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I'll Unvote for now, but I still get a vibe off eHalc.
I'll vote: Galzria.
I'll take over for you joth, Vote: eHalc. I'm still getting a vibe from watno, who has been quiet for a while now. I dont want to just jump on eHalc just cause hes being the most active but every time he posts something I get a little more suspicious of his intentions. I have started feeling this way ever since he was against (and is still against, he just reiterated it) the idea of gaining information from lynches. I dont like people that are against gaining information that is helpful to town.
please quote a post where ehalc says "I don't like getting information from lynches."
I think ehalc (correctly) joined me in calling out insomniac for voting on the basis of how informative a wagon will be, which is a scummy rationale since it allows you to commit without committing. Nobody is saying "information is bad." We are just trying to hold people accountable for their votes instead of letting them make excuses for lynching townies like "I wanted information."
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when people vote, you have to make them post their rationale so that you have something concrete to hold them against post-flip. This is not anti-town behavior. It's planning day two ahead, starting on day one.
Information is good, but you don't get any information out of a wagon where everybody is justifying their vote based on the information. (You can imagine an extreme example. Everyone just picks a player at random and types vote: [pickplayername] (for information) until a majority occurs. How much do you think you learn in that scenario?)
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For what feels like the millionth time, here is my position. I'll try to be detailed this time so I can just link back to this post if it comes up again.
1. The important thing for day 1 is to get information.
2. The best information we get is the day 1 lynch:
2a. Who voted for the lynchee and why?
2b. Who did NOT vote for the lynchee, and why?
3. The "why?" is very important.
3a. "Because it would be informational" is a non-position, like a vote that tries to have a built in excuse. "I voted because it would be informational, so please don't think I am scummy for lynching a townie! It was informational!"
3b. Those early wagons that you think would be informational are less so than what we would get from the actual lynch otherwise.
3c. "Any lynch is better than no lynch" is similarly unhelpful. If you are willing to lynch anyone, you are once again taking a non-position.
If people vote "for information", they better not expect that to hold up as an excuse if their target flips town.
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tl;dr -- I advocate lynching people who you think look scummy, and giving actual reasons for why you think that. The lynch wagon that comes out at the end will be informative by definition.
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That includes me. If you think I look scummy, please present an actual case. I haven't seen one.
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Morgrim always plays this way, in his own words from MIX this is why:
Why do I never have unique info to add? I let you guys do the hard thinking, and choose which case is better. But is someone really jumps out to me as scum, I'll vote for that person.
I agree that it is frustrating, but it certainly isn't unusual... and we have got some good dialoge/exchanges/voting and such. Much better than a quiet town. I'll do a reread of recent posts tomorrow and will evaluate my vote in context of recent posts and existing wagons.
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3rd votes...eHunt for seeming way too defensive, although, to be fair, i'd do that if i were town-eHunt with the annoying wagon he faced. so i'm 50/50 on this, but like someonelse said (insomniac?), there would be good informational value from his lynch, and all things being equal that might prove fruitful
i'm sorry, do you think it's a scumtell that i'm being defensive? Or are you "3rd-voting me" just for the information? If it's for the information, what information do you think you'll gain? Who will you vote for on my wagon after the flip? It's aggravating that you can get away with not posting all day then endorsing the lynch of somebody who's been paying close attention, because you'll "learn stuff" - without saying what you'll learn, who you'd suspect, etc. when that happens.
Look, being defensive and survivalist isn't a scumtell. All players want to live (unless you're the jester, I guess). When people make bad arguments against me, it's my job to point them out. Obviously I hope others will do it, but they have their own fish to fry. You even say yourself that the wagon on me is annoying. What does that mean? Are you committing to saying it's a BAD wagon, or are you just saying it's annoying?
I don't believe there is any case against me except "we gain information if ehunt dies because all those other people on the ehunt wagon... we'll learn about them."
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Morgrim always plays this way, in his own words from MIX this is why:
Why do I never have unique info to add? I let you guys do the hard thinking, and choose which case is better. But is someone really jumps out to me as scum, I'll vote for that person.
I agree that it is frustrating, but it certainly isn't unusual... and we have got some good dialoge/exchanges/voting and such. Much better than a quiet town. I'll do a reread of recent posts tomorrow and will evaluate my vote in context of recent posts and existing wagons.
I know. That's why I said he would be a good target for vig or cop. I think this will be true in every game, until Morgrim changes his style.
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@eHalc, its point 3a that I have continually have had a problem with that you either dont understand or are dodging. The fact that people vote for someone "for information" doesn't change the past. I dont think anyone is actually proposing to look at the people who are willing to pull the trigger for information and say "you are scummy for killing town." The people that are in question are the people that were either defending the lynchee or pushing for his death the first time the wagons came around, depending on what he flipped. People pulling the trigger does not invalidate pages upon pages of discussion.
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@eHalc, its point 3a that I have continually have had a problem with that you either dont understand or are dodging. The fact that people vote for someone "for information" doesn't change the past. I dont think anyone is actually proposing to look at the people who are willing to pull the trigger for information and say "you are scummy for killing town." The people that are in question are the people that were either defending the lynchee or pushing for his death the first time the wagons came around, depending on what he flipped. People pulling the trigger does not invalidate pages upon pages of discussion.
so all the scum have to do to win in your framework is wait for a townie to vote for a townie and then join the wagon "for information."
you ignore that you are creating the perfect alibi for scum.
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tangent - i unvote since it appears that the "for information" fallacy is ascribed to by at least three people, not just insomniac. vote: grujah and now i dont have a secondary or a tertiary, but probably the information folks.
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Caught up.
Dsell's "case" on me is pretty ridiculous - he singled outone post to say "look, he hedged!", without bothering to reference any other posts that I've made where I've clearly stated my opinions on people (some of whom mentioned in that very post he quoted).
Take eHunt for example. Yes, his early play was slightly off-putting. I really didn't think - even having stated his intent to post less prior to game start - that it was necessarily scum eHunt though. While it struck me as different than his play in other games, I also understand the strain that he went through in those games trying to fit rl in around it. So I thought he was suspicious, but not scummy. OMGHEDGE!
I've since come out point-blank and said that he reads town to me, and the wagon on him is terrible.
Shraeye was much more confrontational early in the day compared to M-IX, but in M-IX he never came under pressure and was dead by dawn D2. How anyone could make a case that he didn't appear like town Shraeye, I have no idea. Again though, I wasn't going to write off the reads of everyone else because I actually do my best NOT to tunnel - and hell, maybe I don't see it, but others do? Well then I'll keep that in mind.
((His play more recently has reminded me significantly of D1 M-IX, btw)).
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I also think it's highly misleading to suggest that I've said nothing of value. I've championed the call to lynch lurkers, who are either scum or just really bad town. I've consistently gone after lurkers - while they were lurking - and moved on once they showed some signs of actually being useful. I voted ibg, O, Axxle, and Grujah - all on that front, and you could easily add Glooble and (now) Young_Nick to that list. All of them I would feel are completely acceptable lynches.
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As for actual scumminess from active players, I stated exactly why I find eHal scummy. He's been over-the-top defensive against a case that ultimately bore no real weight. And while he was raising my eyebrows with comments made before Volt posted (things like "I can see a legitimate case on me"), it was really the defensiveness after Volt posted that I found scummy - because with the exception of Insomniac (and I can't even vouch for him), nobody was jumping up and down going "what a compelling case" - but eHal's defenses (and there were multiple) kept reading like he desperately wanted to head off a wagon before it began. He's gone so far as to use the ridiculous line of "what would you learn if you lynched me and I flipped town" - which reads to me like he's trying to scare people away from voting for him because "you won't learn anything". Bull. We'll learn that you're either scum or town, and we'll learn who got on a rolling wagon. We'll learn who started it, who drove it, who distances themselves from it, who was outspoken against it etc.
I've also stated that I found Munch to read consistently townie -frustrated townie- but townie to me. His "debate" with Watno (and to some extent eHal) was pretty clear to me, and the continued pressure by Watno over questions Munch had answered already seemed scummy. It was like he was trying his best to paint Munch as scum, even though all the answers Munch gave read town. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was town V town.
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Lastly, Dsell, to clarify, the primary reason for your vote is:
"This Galzria looks like the town-meta Galzria..." (note: Not townie, but "town-meta", since scum-meta = townie) "... But Galzria himself stated that he knows his own meta's, so town-meta Galzria must actually be scum"?
I actually don't have much of a read on you one way or another, so no OMGUS accusations, but that's a terrible argument. I've played how many games now? My meta has been dead consistent through them all - and yes, I've tried to change at times and failed. Hence why you'll see my earlier post in this very game where I denounce the idea that looking at meta's (both in relation to Robz, and to this game as a whole) is useless. People can't just suddenly change who they are, or how they play - it inevitably comes through.
Oh, and I lol'ed irl at O "I'm down for a Galzria lynch in every game".
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@eHalc, its point 3a that I have continually have had a problem with that you either dont understand or are dodging. The fact that people vote for someone "for information" doesn't change the past. I dont think anyone is actually proposing to look at the people who are willing to pull the trigger for information and say "you are scummy for killing town." The people that are in question are the people that were either defending the lynchee or pushing for his death the first time the wagons came around, depending on what he flipped. People pulling the trigger does not invalidate pages upon pages of discussion.
The past you are talking about is less informative than the real wagon. You are saying that the info is in wagons that came up early on day one. Those are far less useful than the actual wagon that causes someone to lynch. People that cause that lynch "for information" give themselves an excuse for their vote. They do NOT defend NOR push for someone's death. They say that it is "for information" and are therefore beyond any scrutiny.
I pull this out from your quote:
I dont think anyone is actually proposing to look at the people who are willing to pull the trigger for information and say "you are scummy for killing town."
This is exactly the reason why I am against it. If you're not going to say "you're scummy for killing town" to someone who was "willing to pull the trigger for information", then that person was able to vote and kill a townie and get away with it.
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3rd votes...eHunt for seeming way too defensive, although, to be fair, i'd do that if i were town-eHunt with the annoying wagon he faced. so i'm 50/50 on this, but like someonelse said (insomniac?), there would be good informational value from his lynch, and all things being equal that might prove fruitful
i'm sorry, do you think it's a scumtell that i'm being defensive? Or are you "3rd-voting me" just for the information? If it's for the information, what information do you think you'll gain? Who will you vote for on my wagon after the flip? It's aggravating that you can get away with not posting all day then endorsing the lynch of somebody who's been paying close attention, because you'll "learn stuff" - without saying what you'll learn, who you'd suspect, etc. when that happens.
Look, being defensive and survivalist isn't a scumtell. All players want to live (unless you're the jester, I guess). When people make bad arguments against me, it's my job to point them out. Obviously I hope others will do it, but they have their own fish to fry. You even say yourself that the wagon on me is annoying. What does that mean? Are you committing to saying it's a BAD wagon, or are you just saying it's annoying?
I don't believe there is any case against me except "we gain information if ehunt dies because all those other people on the ehunt wagon... we'll learn about them."
This is exactly what I mean. You were a third choice. Hardly on my radar at this point, yet you still treat it like I voted you or something. That's being defensive, and unreasonably so. Annoyingly so, I might add. And yes, I know that being defensive isn't a scum tell. everyone is trying to survive. I acknowledged that I was 50-50, i.e., a coin flip, and that it's essentially a throw-in vote, and yet you are treating it like I am adamantly against you. Maybe I should rephrase "50/50" to reflect the actual odds.
also, I don't KNOW whether it's a bad wagon or not. I'm humble enough to say that. But i am acknowledging, that if you do end up being town, that yes, it would be annoying.
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I'm still not comfortable with listing three people in order, I'll do it soon, but am posting my basic train of thought now so I'm not dropping a bombshell when I do vote: I am suspicious of Insomniac because of his super non-committing position on me from earlier today (today IRL) as well as his "well, voltgloss is a smart guy even if he didn't actually say a good case so there must be a good case somewhere" arg against ehalcyon. I am annoyed at Axxle for repeated bad arguments at me, but unlike the Insom-business, that isn't really a case in and of itself (but I'm going to review him). Other than that I think my whole wagon is town except Insomniac and possibly eevee, but I'm not likely to vote for eevee before either of those other two. In the Glooble-Grujah wars I sympathize with Glooble, which makes me want to vote for Grujah. My view of basically everyone "new" is clouded and run-together and needs to be reviewed before I vote; in particular, I don't understand the Watno/Munch dispute at all. I am still suspicious of shraeye for his personality change from previous games, which I don't think has been addressed. I am a little suspicious of voltaire again but don't have a real case, I am unlikely to vote there. I am not suspicious of ehalc (see my previous post on this) but I'm willing to give voltgloss/sparky the benefit of the doubt on this instead of assuming voltgloss/sparky is scummy for pushing the case.
...You need to stop pushing people that argue with you, you have this tendancy to believe anybody that puts any pressure on anyone or argues with you at all must be scum, and your always wrong.
I'd like you to cite other examples of this "tendency" and where it wound up going wrong. For example, in the post you are quoting I say my wagon is town, except for you and possibly Axxle/Eevee. I don't believe I have this tendency at all (except when my wagon really is scum, e.g. MIX and MVI, no regrets from either of those games).
Haven't caught up yet wanted to respond to this though, Remember your post after M8 finished where you thought I was scum when I was arguing with theorel. Yea you were wrong there too.
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I'm still not comfortable with listing three people in order, I'll do it soon, but am posting my basic train of thought now so I'm not dropping a bombshell when I do vote: I am suspicious of Insomniac because of his super non-committing position on me from earlier today (today IRL) as well as his "well, voltgloss is a smart guy even if he didn't actually say a good case so there must be a good case somewhere" arg against ehalcyon. I am annoyed at Axxle for repeated bad arguments at me, but unlike the Insom-business, that isn't really a case in and of itself (but I'm going to review him). Other than that I think my whole wagon is town except Insomniac and possibly eevee, but I'm not likely to vote for eevee before either of those other two. In the Glooble-Grujah wars I sympathize with Glooble, which makes me want to vote for Grujah. My view of basically everyone "new" is clouded and run-together and needs to be reviewed before I vote; in particular, I don't understand the Watno/Munch dispute at all. I am still suspicious of shraeye for his personality change from previous games, which I don't think has been addressed. I am a little suspicious of voltaire again but don't have a real case, I am unlikely to vote there. I am not suspicious of ehalc (see my previous post on this) but I'm willing to give voltgloss/sparky the benefit of the doubt on this instead of assuming voltgloss/sparky is scummy for pushing the case.
...You need to stop pushing people that argue with you, you have this tendancy to believe anybody that puts any pressure on anyone or argues with you at all must be scum, and your always wrong.
I'd like you to cite other examples of this "tendency" and where it wound up going wrong. For example, in the post you are quoting I say my wagon is town, except for you and possibly Axxle/Eevee. I don't believe I have this tendency at all (except when my wagon really is scum, e.g. MIX and MVI, no regrets from either of those games).
Haven't caught up yet wanted to respond to this though, Remember your post after M8 finished where you thought I was scum when I was arguing with theorel. Yea you were wrong there too.
tl;dr
insomniac: ehunt says everyone who accuses ehunt is mafia but he's always wrong
ehunt: give an example
insomniac: in mviii i accused theorel of being mafia and then ehunt said he thought i was mafia
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oh, you think i think anyone who puts pressure on ANYONE is mafia. no, that's not true. I don't think DSell is mafia. I don't think O is mafia.
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As for actual scumminess from active players, I stated exactly why I find eHal scummy. He's been over-the-top defensive against a case that ultimately bore no real weight. And while he was raising my eyebrows with comments made before Volt posted (things like "I can see a legitimate case on me"), it was really the defensiveness after Volt posted that I found scummy - because with the exception of Insomniac (and I can't even vouch for him), nobody was jumping up and down going "what a compelling case" - but eHal's defenses (and there were multiple) kept reading like he desperately wanted to head off a wagon before it began. He's gone so far as to use the ridiculous line of "what would you learn if you lynched me and I flipped town" - which reads to me like he's trying to scare people away from voting for him because "you won't learn anything". Bull. We'll learn that you're either scum or town, and we'll learn who got on a rolling wagon. We'll learn who started it, who drove it, who distances themselves from it, who was outspoken against it etc.
I've also stated that I found Munch to read consistently townie -frustrated townie- but townie to me. His "debate" with Watno (and to some extent eHal) was pretty clear to me, and the continued pressure by Watno over questions Munch had answered already seemed scummy. It was like he was trying his best to paint Munch as scum, even though all the answers Munch gave read town. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was town V town.
I contend that I have not been overly defensive. I have only reacted to people actually calling me scummy without giving any real reason. To my recollection -- TheMunch (either misunderstanding me or twisting my words, and I am leaning towards the latter now); Volt (for something everyone agrees was bogus); jo (for something he himself did as a townie in MVI). And after that, several people saying I have overreacted. But I don't think I have.
Put another way, if I overreacted, then you are doing the same thing in this post where you shoot down Dsell's case. I don't think you are though -- there was a case, however small, and a few people have said that it is somewhat compelling. You feel it is a really weak case, so you speak up against it. That's what I did too.
Also I did not say "what would you learn if you lynched me and I flipped town". My question was a legitimate question:
"If I am lynched, how will your reads change when I flip town?"
It was a real question.
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My biggest fear in this game: everyone arguing right now is town; scum are remaining just active enough not to be "lurkers" but not getting involved in actual discussion. The people in this category include cayvie and O, on whom I have town reads. But their lack of involvement worries me.
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@Dsell: can you expand on why you find me mildly, possibly scummy? I know I haven't been super active, but I do try to post content (restart RVS joke posts aside) and contributed the "let's at least look at Insom" argument just today.
On lynching for the sake of information: that whole line of thinking is now wholly in the realm of WIfOM now, I think. "I supported the lynch to get info..." "You are saying that as a cover!" "You are calling it a cover because we said it could be a cover, but it is my real reason!" "Just a cover, and you are saying I am saying it because..." And so on. So I don't think it is too useful to continue that line of conversation.
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My biggest fear in this game: everyone arguing right now is town; scum are remaining just active enough not to be "lurkers" but not getting involved in actual discussion. The people in this category include cayvie and O, on whom I have town reads. But their lack of involvement worries me.
in my anger at insomniac he is reminding me of the time i got angry at him in the QT in MVIII which in turn is lending credence to your theory that he is town. i will try to step away from the keyboard and calm down; I also want those particular two people (cayvie and O) to say stuff. also ftl, glooble, grujah.
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@Dsell: can you expand on why you find me mildly, possibly scummy? I know I haven't been super active, but I do try to post content (restart RVS joke posts aside) and contributed the "let's at least look at Insom" argument just today.
On lynching for the sake of information: that whole line of thinking is now wholly in the realm of WIfOM now, I think. "I supported the lynch to get info..." "You are saying that as a cover!" "You are calling it a cover because we said it could be a cover, but it is my real reason!" "Just a cover, and you are saying I am saying it because..." And so on. So I don't think it is too useful to continue that line of conversation.
Hey, when will your move be finished?
Re: infolynching -- mission accomplished. :) As long as people can't hide behind it as an excuse, I'm fine with it.
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@Galz
Shoot, you really mischaracterize my case here. My case isn't that you're hedging-->you must be mafia. In general, I agree with you that hedging is a pretty townie thing to do. It's really not something that scum-Galz would do, being so confident with his reads. As you point out in that post I quoted. You then go out of your way to be hedgy in the EXTREME. On the ONLY three people you analyze in that post. As if you were flaunting that "this right here is something scum-Galz would never do." You're making sure that everyone knows your meta so that they won't be suspicious when your play is in stark contrast with that meta you've tried and failed to escape from. You're just doomed to be easily readable in every future game as scum!
I don't understand why you think I've singled out a single post...I only quoted one, but I've encouraged everyone to read everything you've written. Sure, you've posted cases on other people at various times during the day, but it's nothing that scum-Galz couldn't whip out in a flash.
You have indeed been adamant and consistent (within THIS game) about your frustration with lurkers and your willingness to lurk them. But taking a stand on something like that does not really get you town points, especially when it gives you an excuse to lynch people who are just as likely (more likely, actually) to be town as mafia. I actually agree with you on the lurker meta in a lot of ways...but it's a catch-22 because it can be an extremely convenient position for scum to take. Scum has no problem playing anti-town in one game "for the good of the town in future games."
I'm not saying you don't have real reasons for voting for the various people you've voted for, I'm saying that those reasons are easy and not very innovative.
I don't believe my case is terrible at all, I think it's quite good. You're scum making sure you play in stark contrast to your well-established scum meta. That's not such an unlikely case.
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My biggest fear in this game: everyone arguing right now is town; scum are remaining just active enough not to be "lurkers" but not getting involved in actual discussion. The people in this category include cayvie and O, on whom I have town reads. But their lack of involvement worries me.
in my anger at insomniac he is reminding me of the time i got angry at him in the QT in MVIII which in turn is lending credence to your theory that he is town. i will try to step away from the keyboard and calm down; I also want those particular two people (cayvie and O) to say stuff. also ftl, glooble, grujah.
My read on Ins is becoming more neutral (I was suspicious earlier), though I suppose you are referring to that quote that maybe everyone involved is town. His arguments against me don't read as scummy to me as Munch's (in that I feel he is trying to twist words), and Galz looks a little sketchy to me too now (he always looks sketchy to me though). And I still think Volt is suspicious for teasing at such a weak case.
Just updating my list, trying to get this started. Reasons for 1 and 2 provided earlier, for lack of a better option 3 Frisk is back on the list but at the lowest spot.
Vote: jotheonah
2nd vote: Watno
3rd vote: Captain_Frisk
For ease of reading, can you give those reasons again, or at least link them?
Vote: ehunt
2nd vote - Watno
3rd vote - eHalcyon
P.S. I suggest this format so we don't accidentally vote with our secondary and tertiary votes.
Reasons?
I still want these.
And yeah, I want cayvie and O to give an opinion on recent events.
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@Dsell: can you expand on why you find me mildly, possibly scummy? I know I haven't been super active, but I do try to post content (restart RVS joke posts aside) and contributed the "let's at least look at Insom" argument just today.
It's mostly that you fit the bill of "doing just enough to skate by on D1 without standing out too much or making strong cases." It could just be your playstyle and it's not a terribly strong read. Still, you are doing pretty much what mafia wants to do right now.
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I'm happy with my current vote, on Frisk. Someone pointed out his posts have mostly seemed like IIoA, and I'd agree with that.
To comment on a random selection of recent topics, I'll mention that I have a town read on Galzria (I found his anti-lurking rant from a while back to be genuine town). Some other town reads are probably yuma (organizing the soft deadline, and kickstarting conversation after the lull seemed pro-town) and Munch (even though I disagree with a lot of what he's said, his explanations come off as town)
I also do appreciate eHalc and ehunt's point about voting for information. (as an aside, can you guys please get into an argument or something so I stop getting you confused? you keep making similar points in addition to the similar names) At this point in the game, there's a massive amount of content, but no context (ie flips and night results) in which to analyze it, so it's tempting to want to vote for shaky reasons and get this day over with. But we should really all try to back up our votes, since otherwise the "information" we're hoping to gain will be much less valuable.
PPE: ashersky just made a point relevant to the above that I should probably read but it's bedtime.
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I'm going to take a break for tonight. I might be around in other parts of the forum, but I'm going to avoid this thread. I'm going to avoid even looking at it, so I don't get tempted to post. :)
I encourage everyone to weigh in on recent cases.
PPE: Cuzz, our avatars are rather different though.
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"Everyone is voting for everyone!" exclaimed Jotheonah. "How will we ever decide?"
"Let's just vote for Robz; that's what we usually do," commented Morgrim.
"An excellent suggestion!" cheered eHalcyon. "Let's hang the scummy fellow!"
Having whipped themselves into a "KILL ROBZ" frenzy, they set out about looking for him. But Robz was nowhere to be found.
"Oh, that's right," said Insomniac. "We were trying to figure out who kidnapped him, remember?"
--
Vote Count 1.21
shraeye (2) -- ftl, Captain_Frisk
ehunt (4) -- Eevee, Axxle, Morgrim7
Glooble (1) -- yuma
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, ehunt
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (2) -- Watno, Cuzz
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (2) -- Galzria, TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
Galzria (2) -- Dsell, jotheonah
ftl (1) - ibgtennis
Not Voting (5) -- Grujah, O, eHalcyon, shraeye, sparky5856
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Onto page 16 of my read, I'll stop for tonight. Primary thought: Morgrim scares me. >___<
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@Galz
Shoot, you really mischaracterize my case here. My case isn't that you're hedging-->you must be mafia. In general, I agree with you that hedging is a pretty townie thing to do. It's really not something that scum-Galz would do, being so confident with his reads. As you point out in that post I quoted. You then go out of your way to be hedgy in the EXTREME. On the ONLY three people you analyze in that post. As if you were flaunting that "this right here is something scum-Galz would never do." You're making sure that everyone knows your meta so that they won't be suspicious when your play is in stark contrast with that meta you've tried and failed to escape from. You're just doomed to be easily readable in every future game as scum!
I don't understand why you think I've singled out a single post...I only quoted one, but I've encouraged everyone to read everything you've written. Sure, you've posted cases on other people at various times during the day, but it's nothing that scum-Galz couldn't whip out in a flash.
You have indeed been adamant and consistent (within THIS game) about your frustration with lurkers and your willingness to lurk them. But taking a stand on something like that does not really get you town points, especially when it gives you an excuse to lynch people who are just as likely (more likely, actually) to be town as mafia. I actually agree with you on the lurker meta in a lot of ways...but it's a catch-22 because it can be an extremely convenient position for scum to take. Scum has no problem playing anti-town in one game "for the good of the town in future games."
I'm not saying you don't have real reasons for voting for the various people you've voted for, I'm saying that those reasons are easy and not very innovative.
I don't believe my case is terrible at all, I think it's quite good. You're scum making sure you play in stark contrast to your well-established scum meta. That's not such an unlikely case.
And to ask what seems to be a popular question around these parts:
"And what will lynching me and seeing my town alignment tell you?"
It's a bad case because it does exactly as you claim: Makes it impossible for me to play this game, because if I conform to my town-meta (intentionally or not), I must be scum doing so on purpose. If I conform to my scum meta, I must be scum because that's how scum Galz plays.
You're basically saying "We should lynch Galz because we can't trust him". It's very similar to O's "I'm down with a Galzria lynch in every game" in that there's basically no room for me to play. I'm a detriment to both my scum teams and town teams under that premise.
As for the lurker issue, I absolutely do not think they have a "greater chance at being town than others". It's rather irrelevant as this community has no desire to lynch them though. They'll talk about it all day long, but ultimately they'll vote someone active who has a perceived "scumslip", and then they'll watch as said player flips up town. Hey, whatever. Town isn't doing terrible in the percentages, so they can get by.
Why is it so infuriating to me personally? Because way back in M-II I was scum in my very first game. It was the only game that I was in, and it had only 9 players. I devoted a TON of time and posts to that thread to help scum win. Ever since then I've been town (ZM-1 the exception), and I've found it SO much harder to stay engaged. Certainly the desire (and ability) to help teammates that I don't even know is strained. I don't want to devote 10,000 posts to a thread. But every time I've tried to not post so much, I've been called out for playing different, thus I must be scum. It happened in M-III, in M-VI, M-VII and it's happened some here...
And I've kinda gone on a tangent. But it's frustrating that if/when I sign up for a game, it means I must post 1,000 posts a day or I'm scum, while for others posing once every 48 is acceptable. And it's frustrating to see cases like yours where you explicitly state " You're just doomed to be easily readable in every future game as scum!" based on "scum-meta = scum, and town-meta = scum playing to town-meta".
Anyway, all that tangent aside, if your case really does boil down to "I think he's likely scum because he appears to match his town-meta" then there's not much I can say or do to defend myself. If you lynch me, you'll find that once more town-meta Galzria is indeed town. At least I'll have the comfort of knowing I was lynched because you WIFOM'd yourself to town galz must be scum. /shrug
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And ... Unvote.
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A few pages back but Unvote for now after seeing eHunt's explanation.
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>.<
Your rebuttal to my case would be all fine and good if you were responding to the case I presented.
Town Galzria is a great player. Scum Galzria is a great player. You're a great player, you should be happy. So stop misrepresenting my case.
First of all, both of your rebuttals to my arguments have stated that my case implies that you're playing with your Town-Galz meta. You're not and I specifically said that in my initial argument. Your town meta, according to you, is that you act all townie and everyone thinks you're suspicious. Well, I think you're suspicious but no one else has all day and no one is really biting at my case.
I'm not trying to make it impossible for you to play. I don't think I would be having an issue with you if you were just being ordinary, helpful town Galz, and no I'm not saying that you have to post 10,000 times per day to do that, that's not the issue. The issue is something subtly scummy that you said and a pattern in your behavior that fits in with a meta that you would like to push as scum, and one that is quite different from your usual scum meta (though it doesn't quite fit in with your town meta either). You HAVE been quieter than usual, but content-wise, rather than post count-wise.
My statement about you being easily readable in every future game was pretty obviously satire; I was taking your claims about your meta being unchangeable to the logical conclusion. You are an excellent player, and you're not going to let yourself be reduced to your meta. But by claiming that your meta can't be changed, you are basically saying that you're solvable. And you're not.
And on the lurker thing, I didn't mean that lurkers are more likely than active players to turn up town, I mean that probability-wise, it's more likely that they're town. By reducing lynches to analyzing post count rather than post content, it's basically turning the lynch into a random lynch. Of course, we usually lynch someone based on a "scumslip." That's why I'm going for subtle play in my case against you.
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oh, you think i think anyone who puts pressure on ANYONE is mafia. no, that's not true. I don't think DSell is mafia. I don't think O is mafia.
I put pressure on eHal to see how he reacts and eHal reacts in a scummy way, you start to defend him and ask me to give reasons for putting you second but giving them would be anti-town* (see below). And when I don't give them to you you lunge on me for numerous reasons but basically OMGUS.
* I'm going to reference ZM2 here. In ZM2 I decided to say that if I died shraeye was scum. Doing so however directly modified the outcome of what happened because now if I died it is more likely to be someone framing shraeye then shraeye because shraeye as scum would have to be pretty silly to shoot me unless he hopes to apply that as his defence. Now the only reason I ended up voting for shraeye in ZM2 is BECAUSE I had said that and had to assume the reason I didn't die was because I had said that statement thereby altering the course of the game. So saying what I learn from your flip does in fact inevitably change the course of the night and the game.
PPE: 15 new replies since I started writing this (had to go talk to the girlfriend for a bit,) so I'm going to push this through and then read them
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Ugh, I'm frustrated that the argument with Galz has become long, back-and-forth posts that people aren't going to want to read.
Again, I want to encourage everyone to read all of Galz' posts and look for subtle scum play. Galz is trying to slip under the radar today, and that is where we should be looking if we're going to have a successful day 1 scum lynch.
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>.<
Your rebuttal to my case would be all fine and good if you were responding to the case I presented.
Town Galzria is a great player. Scum Galzria is a great player. You're a great player, you should be happy. So stop misrepresenting my case.
First of all, both of your rebuttals to my arguments have stated that my case implies that you're playing with your Town-Galz meta. You're not and I specifically said that in my initial argument. Your town meta, according to you, is that you act all townie and everyone thinks you're suspicious. Well, I think you're suspicious but no one else has all day and no one is really biting at my case.
I'm not trying to make it impossible for you to play. I don't think I would be having an issue with you if you were just being ordinary, helpful town Galz, and no I'm not saying that you have to post 10,000 times per day to do that, that's not the issue. The issue is something subtly scummy that you said and a pattern in your behavior that fits in with a meta that you would like to push as scum, and one that is quite different from your usual scum meta (though it doesn't quite fit in with your town meta either). You HAVE been quieter than usual, but content-wise, rather than post count-wise.
My statement about you being easily readable in every future game was pretty obviously satire; I was taking your claims about your meta being unchangeable to the logical conclusion. You are an excellent player, and you're not going to let yourself be reduced to your meta. But by claiming that your meta can't be changed, you are basically saying that you're solvable. And you're not.
And on the lurker thing, I didn't mean that lurkers are more likely than active players to turn up town, I mean that probability-wise, it's more likely that they're town. By reducing lynches to analyzing post count rather than post content, it's basically turning the lynch into a random lynch. Of course, we usually lynch someone based on a "scumslip." That's why I'm going for subtle play in my case against you.
Fair enough. I guess I was misunderstanding - not intentionally misrepresenting. Then I would like to change my final statement in my previous post to read "At least if I get lynched, I'll have the comfort of knowing I was actually able to play town as townie instead of scummy... Even if I got lynched for it!".
I respect the desire to look outside the norm honestly, which is probably why I don't find you scummy at all... Like, maybe 10% scumminess to 90% town (and I really hope I'm right in that at the end of the game!). I felt the same way in M-VII when I pushed to lynch the person I suspected least D1. Sadly, it backfired as they too flipped up town. Likewise here, I assure you that I'm town.
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I don't think morgrim isn't even reading the thread. It feels like he doesn't know about the soft deadline. This is the scummiest I've ever seen him.
Morgrim is a TERRIBLE target for cop. Cops should target people who would benefit town from being obvtown, so someone with solid reads but the cop can't read them, or something like that.
I have voted "For Information" before. But ALWAYS on a null or scum read. Killing town "for information" is stupid. eHunt is right, stop being daft.
I'm going to have to reread Joth. It feels like he's just latching on to other people's arguments and not coming up with ones himself.
@Insomniac: I really don't see how you feel justified in doing what you're doing. How did you expect town eHalc to react, and how did you expect scum eHalc to react?
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oh, you think i think anyone who puts pressure on ANYONE is mafia. no, that's not true. I don't think DSell is mafia. I don't think O is mafia.
I put pressure on eHal to see how he reacts and eHal reacts in a scummy way, you start to defend him and ask me to give reasons for putting you second but giving them would be anti-town* (see below). And when I don't give them to you you lunge on me for numerous reasons but basically OMGUS.
* I'm going to reference ZM2 here. In ZM2 I decided to say that if I died shraeye was scum. Doing so however directly modified the outcome of what happened because now if I died it is more likely to be someone framing shraeye then shraeye because shraeye as scum would have to be pretty silly to shoot me unless he hopes to apply that as his defence. Now the only reason I ended up voting for shraeye in ZM2 is BECAUSE I had said that and had to assume the reason I didn't die was because I had said that statement thereby altering the course of the game. So saying what I learn from your flip does in fact inevitably change the course of the night and the game.
PPE: 15 new replies since I started writing this (had to go talk to the girlfriend for a bit,) so I'm going to push this through and then read them
Except I literally told you on day 2 that the only way for the theoretical scum-shraeye to win the game was to NK you anyway, so assuming that you saying that saved you from scum-shraeye was (a) ridiculous and (b) terrible reasoning. So when we learn stuff from a flip, remember not to be ridiculous about it.
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Sparky: Specifically focus on eHalc. What is your read on him?
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Yikes, the last few pages were tough to slog through; everyone seems to be repeating the same things and ignoring eachother. I'm still down with an informational-lynch, I think they'll work. But I'm looking at eHalcyon's arguments and I realize that though they sound rational, I simply disagree with too many of his premises. I'll never convince him to give them up, and he won't convince me they're right. So this is me firmly deciding that it is not worth arguing. The good news is that everyone now can secretly say in their minds "yeah but I'm totally right".---AS I WAS WRITING I SEE YOU ALSO ARE DONE WITH THIS POINT IN #1306; I ALSO AGREE THAT THIS MATTER IS "RESOLVED", MEANING THAT WE SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE.
Here's my take on some subset of the players
eHalcyon reads super town to me right now. I can't quite recall who (funny, because I'm the guy who just wrote an enormous summary) but somebody once said that another person [i'm going out on a limb, trusting my fuzzy memory, and saying it was Dsell talking about yuma] was simply too out there, and obviously combative to be scum. So lot's of people disagree with eHalcyon's viewpoint, or the specific way he is arguing, his "info-lynch is bad" "vigs NKing morgrim is good" ideas. And they vote him for that saying his arguments are scummy. It seems that f.DS loves to equate wrong, or misguided, with scummy. "I disagree with you, therefore you must be scum!!!" That's silly as shit. I disagree with eHalcyon on a lot of things he's been posting. But he reads town to me.
Morgrim!! He's scary
Onto page 16 of my read, I'll stop for tonight. Primary thought: Morgrim scares me. >___<
Whether or not sparky means what I mean by this, imma hijack his thought. Morgrim really seems to be to be playing strangely. He pops in and out (timezones, I know) but when he is here, he has tended to post lists of people and reads. And these aren't explained at all. He starts off reallllly early putting out a list of people who he wants to lynch though he has town reads. In itself, this isn't something I actually think is terrible, somebody pointed out that when it comes to crunch time, we scramble to get behind a lynch that might be working, as long as it isn't a super strong town read. Morgrim just seemed to be adopting this personality right out of the gates. I dislike how eager that sounded to get day 1 over with and a (mis)-lynch behind us. People say Morgrim wagons won't work (people, I think, is eHalcyon in particular, who said this is why scummy Morg is a good vig-kill or cop-check). "Morgrim is being Morgrim" is also silly. I am 100% behind anyone who wants to lynch Morgrim.
Vote: Morgrim
Galzria: I still think that Galz is fake-playing to town-meta, or Galz is actually in town-meta arguments suck. I know this is ironic, since Galz is one of the proponents of "people can't change their meta even if they try". But both of these sound like dumb reasons from my relatively-newbish viewpoint. Galz has done nothing that has given more than a slight-scum read. He has also given me many many town reads. So he's town by my book.
jotheonah: I say he's scum. And I mean it. (ftl, I think your case on me [maybe someone elses] that I was voting for o but making cases against watno felt scummy because it was hedging was bad. Wrong and bad. People are allowed to have more than one suspicion, but not allowed to have more than one vote.) Here's something that fell through the cracks. Remember when I was trying hard to lynch O, and people speculated that I was a lyncher role? Well joth said this
Robz of all people would include a lyncher whose target is town? After he was so pissed off at getting that role in BMMM?
And just left it 100% assumed that O was town. Watno caught this, and I missed it the first time through. O was so town to joth that he didn't bother to make O's alignment hypothetical at all. Joth's response to watno calling him out and eHalcyon agreeing (and eHalcyon votes joth) is
Clearly O thinks O is town and O is the one who suggested shraeye is a lyncher.
What I think has little to do with it.
After repeating this same defense a second time, watno eventually finds the slip an honest mistake. I really think this is a scumslip. As in, he slipped in information taht only scum would know, and made a bad explanation as to why it was there. He squirmed super hard under the heavy burden of the one vote on him (from eHalcyon), and though survival instinct should be allowed, that was too absurd.
Joth defending really eagerly/vehemently happened once already this game, when he only had one vote on him.
Joth is fighting *way* too hard for just one vote on him.
Also:
They will be subtly based on aspects of players personalities. (For example, the following line of thinking will not work in this game: "Jotheonah has twice been the Serial Killer, so he's probably the Serial Killer in this game.") Furthermore, some roles and alignments WILL be determined randomly.
I'm piecing two and two and two together, and I arrive at scum. I am 100% behind any effort to lynch joth today.
o: I'm off his case for now. He showed up and debated things, said stuff, committed himself. I'm super worried that he's about to go into his deadline-posting strategy of rapid-firing off posts challenging people until he thinks he's caught scum. I suggest that nobody does this. Here's the part of the day where level-headed shraeye tries to talk you all into sense, and you all make pages and pages of vomit-inducing posts within a 40minute period anyway.
voltgloss: Now sparky. Through no fault of your own, you inherited a role that I was already suspicious of. Thanks for subbing. But voltgloss/sparky is suspicious. I know that voltgloss was very busy this weekend, but I really disliked how he first announced that he was building an awesome case on eHalcyon. And the case probably would have sounded good too (if he had had time to work on it), but it's premise was pretty bunk. Basically it was all based around eHalcyon saying twice that he didn't think his role fit his meta. All eHalcyon was trying to do, was quell discussion regarding this, which could cause more danger than the help it could possibly give. I agree with eHalcyon here. Not all players in this game have metas. Some are very new, some (like me) are somewhat new. If we speculate about metas, this will shift most suspicion to people who's metas we could analyze. I don't think my role sums my meta up, from what I secretly think Robz thinks of me. But who's to say, since Robz didn't broadcast his feelings on every player. My suspicion on Voltgloss comes more from something else though. This goes back to whoever said "dude A is too out there to be scum, scum wouldn't put themselves in that position" Of all the players who have given me quiet/coasty vibes, his is not only the least lurky (possibly because he was very careful to say just enough that people knew he was here) it is also surprisingly devoid of content. The one big moment I recall is when he jumped on the yuma-wagon since yuma looked scummy, saying he was responding to blatant rolefishing. Then he unvotes 3 pages later, saying "I hoped more scum had jumped at this; see what I was doing there by cleverly setting a trap and voting for role-fishing? Obviously i didn't think yuma was role-fishing" except you did think yuma was rolefishing. This is either the weirdest way to hop off a wagon that's not going anywhere, or is simply a bad "gambit". It's not clever. Sure, it generated discussion, but I can't figure out why none of it was directed at you. I'm 100% a voltgloss lynch today.
ftl: ftl is the other quiet coaster i'm suspicious of. I'm 80% behind an ftl lynch today.
I'm tired so I'm going to sleep.
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I'm going to have to reread Joth. It feels like he's just latching on to other people's arguments and not coming up with ones himself.
Don't bother. You're 100% right that this is what I'm doing.
But, like, somebody has to. When the only acceptable town play is for everyone to come up with their own 100% unique case, you get a vote count that looks like the one we have. If we ACTUALLY want a lynch, some people have to sheep. Critical thinking is still involved, to decide which reads to sheep and which not to.
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jotheonah: I say he's scum. And I mean it. (ftl, I think your case on me [maybe someone elses] that I was voting for o but making cases against watno felt scummy because it was hedging was bad. Wrong and bad. People are allowed to have more than one suspicion, but not allowed to have more than one vote.) Here's something that fell through the cracks. Remember when I was trying hard to lynch O, and people speculated that I was a lyncher role? Well joth said this
Robz of all people would include a lyncher whose target is town? After he was so pissed off at getting that role in BMMM?
And just left it 100% assumed that O was town. Watno caught this, and I missed it the first time through. O was so town to joth that he didn't bother to make O's alignment hypothetical at all. Joth's response to watno calling him out and eHalcyon agreeing (and eHalcyon votes joth) is
Clearly O thinks O is town and O is the one who suggested shraeye is a lyncher.
What I think has little to do with it.
After repeating this same defense a second time, watno eventually finds the slip an honest mistake. I really think this is a scumslip. As in, he slipped in information taht only scum would know, and made a bad explanation as to why it was there. He squirmed super hard under the heavy burden of the one vote on him (from eHalcyon), and though survival instinct should be allowed, that was too absurd.
Joth defending really eagerly/vehemently happened once already this game, when he only had one vote on him.
Joth is fighting *way* too hard for just one vote on him.
Also:
They will be subtly based on aspects of players personalities. (For example, the following line of thinking will not work in this game: "Jotheonah has twice been the Serial Killer, so he's probably the Serial Killer in this game.") Furthermore, some roles and alignments WILL be determined randomly.
I'm piecing two and two and two together, and I arrive at scum. I am 100% behind any effort to lynch joth today.
I don't buy this at all.
Jo's statement was clearly directed at O, as O was the one accusing shraeye of being a lyncher.
And so, in order for O to claim both
A) shraeye is a lyncher with O as a target
B) O is town
then O would have to also claim
C) this game contains a lyncher with a town target.
Which jo was arguing against.
I think you're smart enough to get that, shraeye.
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+1 to cayvie.
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I think DSell's case against Galz (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.msg111683#msg111683) is genuine.
That is, he legitimately is trying to find scum, and is excited because he thinks he has.
This makes Dsell slightly townier in my eyes, and has no effect on my read of Galz. Eh, it probably makes Galz look a little scummier.
I'm excited that it got a real response out of Galz, though! Those are fun.
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+1 to cayvie.
man jo
you've still got me double checking my posts for swearing and sarcasm
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@Insomniac: I really don't see how you feel justified in doing what you're doing. How did you expect town eHalc to react, and how did you expect scum eHalc to react?
Town eHalc to make a logical argument to why he is not scum, not to OMGUS me and carry on and on about it. For instance the way he is reacting now is much more townie he has moved on from me after he felt he stated his case better.
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I've been so hypocritical, sorry guys. I spent like the first half of this thread calling for lurker lynches, and then I neglected this thread for most of a day and now I'm a lurker. Reap what you sow and all that, people aren't lurking and I can't keep up...
My thoughts on things that have happened here:
Townread on ehunt for his stuff with insom/O, and a scumread on insom from that.
Dsell's case on Galzria? Hm. I'll have to reread. Tomorrow morning though, not now... One thing that I remember from the murder mystery mafia was that scumgalz was accused of being a little nicer than towngalz. I'll have to go back and check whether that's the case here. Galz has been giving me townvibes but so has Dsell and he's good.
Shraeye.. When I read what he writes, it seems townish. And then I contrast with his votes and think obvscum. Like, that last post. Reasonable analysis of eHal which I find persuasive. And then he votes for MORGRIM???? Maybe it's that he always seems to vote for the worst, least solid case of the ones he talks about. (Morg's a bad lynch BTW. It's the usual morg. When he's scum, I bet we'll know.)
With one day 'till soft deadline, I'm expanding my 'willing to lynch' list. Galzria, insomniac, shraeye, glooble, grujah, munch, watno. Not ehunt or ehal or cayvie or morgrim. Not changing my vote from shraeye yet, but I will if I need to to make a lynch happen, nobody seems to buy my shraeye case.
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Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?
Anyways, now that I'm here, my thoughts on everyone. If I don't remember someone, it probably means he hasn't said anything memorable and should post more / more content.
Morgrim: I agree he has played very scummy, but in my re-read way back I concluded it doesn't look like the mafia kind of scummy. Wouldn't vote today.
Galzria: Dsell's case is the kind we should pursue more often day 1, I think. I would be ok with a Galz lynch, I'm not overly joyous about it because I think he could be a big town asset later.
Dsell: Town read, general good feeling. Possibly subconsciously rewarding him for the Galzria-case I like. Wouldn't vote.
eHalcyon: Looks different than the eHalcyon I know, but I don't have anything concrete. I disagree with him a lot which is new, but doesn't mean we can't be from the same faction.
ehunt: Again very different than the ehunt I know. My usual "wouldn't want to draw this much attention as town" doesn't apply here imo, because he didn't really want to be this active, he sort of got sucked into it because he got suspected so early.
Volt/sparky: I don't think subbing out or promising a case but never delivering are scum- or towntells, so pretty much a noread, maybe slight town bias. I think I read sparky better than Volt, so hopefully this will change.
Glooble: Much like the scum-Glooble I know. Would vote today.
Grujah: Is currently lurky in other games as well, but so was Frisk when he was scum in multiple games at the same time. I still have the same scum read I had earlier.
Axxle: Also a scum read, not because of the doublevoter business, but because I felt the reasons for voting ehunt were sort of flimsy and felt fabricated. Feels he made it seem like I was more sure of my vote on ehunt than I actually was, might be a misunderstanding though. Would vote.
yuma: Town read, but again I might be rewarding him for his work on the deadline-ideas. Wouldn't vote.
Frisk: Slight scum read maybe, hasn't done anything particularly towny and generally avoids the attention much like scum Frisk always does.
ftl: Is somehow always a no-read for me. Would vote I guess, but I should work on remembering you better.
Watno: Looks sort of scummy, but I wonder if it's too much of the "obvious kind" of scummy. He feels much like our usual day 1 lynch target. Would vote though, but not overly happy about it.
TheMunch: Got grilled more than he deserved I think (or rather for wrong reasons). I generally don't have a town read on him, but I think he came out okay from the eHalc and Watno - incidents. Would maybe be willing to vote for him, but can't quite put my finger on why.
ashersky: Hasn't said much anything, suspicious like all other lurkers.
Insomniac: I can't help but always see Ins scummy, so don't really know. Maybe more vocal than he would be if scum?
O: Opposite of Ins, I seem to have a town-bias on O. Wouldn't vote today.
Jotheonah: With that level of activity, should be signaling more town to me I think. Don't really know, KACEOY.
shraeye: Not like the shraeye I was expecting, and I didn't like the attitude much, especially earlier (who likes to be called stupid repeatedly), but faced some pressure and didn't crack or anything like that.
cayvie: Posts a lot without ever saying anything. I have a huge town bias on her, but here I actually think she looks rather scummy. The thing about not wanting to be a part of town wagons reads towny to me though.
Young_Nick: Slight scum read fornot being helpful. Doesn't seem paranoid about appearing lazy/useless though. And I know there is a lot to read, but we have excellent summaries.
Voltaire: Plays like I would expect scum Volt to. Slight scum read.
igbtennis: I don't know how much slack I'm supposed to cut him for being new. Would support his lynch for staying in the back and not contributing but it's got to be pretty hard to keep track of stuff in a town this big when you don't know anyone in advance.
Cuzz: I suspected him some in MX for this same playstyle, so he is definitely one of the guys that always seem scummy to me. That being said, would vote.
Before anyone attacks me for being vague and making a long useless list, it's very hard to come back to this thread after not being around when you guys produce 7 pages, I felt this was the best way to do it. It's very vague because so are my opinions atm, I feel day1 doesn't have much to offer to us anymore and quite frankly am happy it's coming to and end.
Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.
Vote: Axxle
2nd would be Grujah
3rd Glooble.
ehunt vote was maybe outdated. But yeah, I'll be somehow making sure I end up on the lynch wagon in the end, just a heads up. It won't be an O-like quickhammer though, don't worry.
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Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?
Yes. Even though I sheeped you earlier, yes.
I am a terrible player...
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Axxle: Also a scum read, not because of the doublevoter business, but because I felt the reasons for voting ehunt were sort of flimsy and felt fabricated. Feels he made it seem like I was more sure of my vote on ehunt than I actually was, might be a misunderstanding though. Would vote.
You know I unvoted him after he explained himself very plausibly, right?
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Axxle: Also a scum read, not because of the doublevoter business, but because I felt the reasons for voting ehunt were sort of flimsy and felt fabricated. Feels he made it seem like I was more sure of my vote on ehunt than I actually was, might be a misunderstanding though. Would vote.
You know I unvoted him after he explained himself very plausibly, right?
I do, I didn't like the original reasons for the vote.
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hmmmm, wow.
I think that post moves my list to
Primary: Eevee
Secondary: Axxle
Tertiary: Grujah.
I think you've mischaracterized my play fairly drastically. Frankly, I haven't been posting all that much lately, and what I have been posting has been, I feel, pretty full of substance.
I think it's weird that you say you find me kinda scummy, but then proceed to corroborate my story and sheep my reads exactly.
I would be less than surprised if it turned out you were the cult leader.
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It's taking all of my power not to vote cayvie right now... need... symmetry...
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Cayvie, why would a cult leader inform the town of the existence of the cult? Well, he wouldnt but I dont even care about that.
WHY IS WHAT YOU SAID I DID SCUMMY? I could argue why it's not, but I'll let you make your case first in case I'm missing something.
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IIRC I'm not voting for anyone right now. Might as well park my vote somewhere I know I won't regret it.
Vote: Morgrim
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IIRC I'm not voting for anyone right now. Might as well park my votes somewhere I know I won't regret it.
Vote: Morgrim
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Anyway, hi guys. :)
Sorry about being freaked out about the deadline too early, I thought I had seen Monday somewhere, no idea where I got that. I don't see the need to respond to any arguments against me, and actually I'm ok with lynching myself. VT lynches are not so bad, right? So, Vote: Morgrim.
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I would self hammer, but my role prevents me from doing that :(. But I do get to do something cool when I am lynched.
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Oh goddamnit morgrim.
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Hey, when will your move be finished?
We'll finally arrive in our new house on Thursday next week. Yeah, it sucks. Changing two hemispheres, though, so it does take time.
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Hey, when will your move be finished?
We'll finally arrive in our new house on Thursday next week. Yeah, it sucks. Changing two hemispheres, though, so it does take time.
?
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Hey, when will your move be finished?
We'll finally arrive in our new house on Thursday next week. Yeah, it sucks. Changing two hemispheres, though, so it does take time.
?
Northern to Southern and Western to Eastern. (US to Aus)
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jotheonah: I say he's scum. And I mean it. (ftl, I think your case on me [maybe someone elses] that I was voting for o but making cases against watno felt scummy because it was hedging was bad. Wrong and bad. People are allowed to have more than one suspicion, but not allowed to have more than one vote.) Here's something that fell through the cracks. Remember when I was trying hard to lynch O, and people speculated that I was a lyncher role? Well joth said this
Robz of all people would include a lyncher whose target is town? After he was so pissed off at getting that role in BMMM?
And just left it 100% assumed that O was town. Watno caught this, and I missed it the first time through. O was so town to joth that he didn't bother to make O's alignment hypothetical at all. Joth's response to watno calling him out and eHalcyon agreeing (and eHalcyon votes joth) is
Clearly O thinks O is town and O is the one who suggested shraeye is a lyncher.
What I think has little to do with it.
After repeating this same defense a second time, watno eventually finds the slip an honest mistake. I really think this is a scumslip. As in, he slipped in information taht only scum would know, and made a bad explanation as to why it was there. He squirmed super hard under the heavy burden of the one vote on him (from eHalcyon), and though survival instinct should be allowed, that was too absurd.
Joth defending really eagerly/vehemently happened once already this game, when he only had one vote on him.
Joth is fighting *way* too hard for just one vote on him.
Also:
They will be subtly based on aspects of players personalities. (For example, the following line of thinking will not work in this game: "Jotheonah has twice been the Serial Killer, so he's probably the Serial Killer in this game.") Furthermore, some roles and alignments WILL be determined randomly.
I'm piecing two and two and two together, and I arrive at scum. I am 100% behind any effort to lynch joth today.
I don't buy this at all.
Jo's statement was clearly directed at O, as O was the one accusing shraeye of being a lyncher.
And so, in order for O to claim both
A) shraeye is a lyncher with O as a target
B) O is town
then O would have to also claim
C) this game contains a lyncher with a town target.
Which jo was arguing against.
I think you're smart enough to get that, shraeye.
Thanks, cayvie, you talked some sense into me here. Maybe I just have a hard time understanding joth's one-liners. I am now only 60% behind a joth lynch.
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Shraeye.. When I read what he writes, it seems townish. And then I contrast with his votes and think obvscum. Like, that last post. Reasonable analysis of eHal which I find persuasive. And then he votes for MORGRIM???? Maybe it's that he always seems to vote for the worst, least solid case of the ones he talks about. (Morg's a bad lynch BTW. It's the usual morg. When he's scum, I bet we'll know.)
Yeah, the eHalc argument is legit, he's the most towny in my book right now. Again you're doing this crazy thing where you see me give lots of cases and then give me flak for voting for only one of them. Morgrim is my serious case. Which other case of mine (for scum, my eHalc case was good, and that's why I'm not voting for him) is more solid? I really hate that people are always saying Morgrim is a bad lynch. Even with his claim for cool stuff post-lynch, I want to lynch that scum. I will remember your "Morgrim is a bad lynch" argument when Morg flips scum.
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Shraeye, I too think Morgrim is a bad lynch. I don't expect him to be mafia, and hope people can see past his behavior and have the sense to go after someone else today.
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Eevee, I too think you're exactly as wrong as ftl. I expect him to be mafia, and hope people can see past his past behavior and have the sense to realize that "Morgrim is Morgrim" is not a defense we should be willing to give anyone.
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(unfortunately the parallels between your post and mine, eevee, were lost by the page jump)
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Shraeye, I too think Morgrim is a bad lynch. I don't expect him to be mafia, and hope people can see past his behavior and have the sense to go after someone else today.
And go after someone else I will. Vote: Eevee.
I've found Eevee to be super townie and helpful in the past (as town), and I'm really just not getting that this game. This is the biggest sign for me that Eevee is scum, but theres a few others:
Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?
This comes off as something like "wow am I really getting away with this?"
And finally:
Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.
I call shenanigans on this. It seems like a very nice excuse for voting for town. It's asking to be absolved of any responsibility in event of a mislynch. "Oh, I thought they were town, but I couldn't resist the bonus just in case!" And it seems like a plausible part of a role, of course, because someone else has already claimed an analogous one.
I know we're getting toward the deadline, and I'm making a plurality lynch more difficult by voting someone with no votes on currently. But there are still undecided people out there, and we've still got some time, so hop on the wagon if you like the case.
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Shraeye, I too think Morgrim is a bad lynch. I don't expect him to be mafia, and hope people can see past his behavior and have the sense to go after someone else today.
And go after someone else I will. Vote: Eevee.
I've found Eevee to be super townie and helpful in the past (as town), and I'm really just not getting that this game. This is the biggest sign for me that Eevee is scum, but theres a few others:
Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?
This comes off as something like "wow am I really getting away with this?"
And finally:
Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.
I call shenanigans on this. It seems like a very nice excuse for voting for town. It's asking to be absolved of any responsibility in event of a mislynch. "Oh, I thought they were town, but I couldn't resist the bonus just in case!" And it seems like a plausible part of a role, of course, because someone else has already claimed an analogous one.
I know we're getting toward the deadline, and I'm making a plurality lynch more difficult by voting someone with no votes on currently. But there are still undecided people out there, and we've still got some time, so hop on the wagon if you like the case.
This is a decent argument. I'd say i'm 20% behind an eevee lynch today [0% behind a lynch is pure-neutral read for me, I'd be some positive percent against lynching if they were towny to me]. I'll do a reread on eevee to see my take on him.
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I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
How is me having a town read on Morg scummy, Cuzz? Because you are scum with him and know I'm wrong? I almost never OMGUS, but man am I tempted to do it here.
@shraeye
It's possible I'm wrong about morgrim. Why is my read scummy though? Are you thinking we must be a scum pair?
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Definitely don't see the case on Eevee. It seems like the sort of joke I would make (in fact, will probably make later on) when returning from a lurking phase. Nothing seems scummy about it.
@Morgrim - well, we all knew this would happen.
For those who are too lazy to read my posts, here's my original reasoning. Note that this does not reflect my current voting:
If we do indeed decide to do this, here's my three votes. Probably gone this weekend, but I might have time to poke in. I don't have strong scum reads on anyone at the moment. This was tricky.
Primary Vote: ashersky (for lurking in plain sight while calling on others not to lurk, and for being on the terrible shraeye wagon)
Secondary Vote: jotheonah (He's squirmed a lot with only 1 vote on him, tried to drive ehunt wagon, thinks lynching lurkers is a bad idea...some of it seems like a difference in playstyles, some of it feels like a scum vibe)
Third Vote: Watno (I haven't gotten substance from him, his tunneling of Munch was bizarre, plus "gut feel" from earlier)
No vote on Frisk anymore as he's changed his behavior for the better. Doesn't make him town, but it takes him from scum to neutral in my eyes.
PPE: Ugh. Don't make me change my mind.
I then realized ashersky was V/LA. Since then, all that's happened is that I bumped everyone up and added Frisk back on as the 3rd vote. This is very fluid and there are lots of changes I'd be willing to make.
I think the proper way to deal with the whole 2nd/3rd tier votes is that if there aren't obviously 2 wagons or so after everyone votes that we take an imaginary votecount where everyone's 2nd votes count too and figure out if we have wagons. If we do, then those are the wagons and everyone shifts around like that. It's kinda like Instant Runoff Voting which is great in huge groups like this.
I was happy to see shraeye also vote for jotheonah but disappointed it was for silly reasons.
So...keep the votes coming?
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I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
Your last act as town was helping lynch sparky, who I had no clue was scum.
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I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
How is me having a town read on Morg scummy, Cuzz? Because you are scum with him and know I'm wrong? I almost never OMGUS, but man am I tempted to do it here.
@shraeye
It's possible I'm wrong about morgrim. Why is my read scummy though? Are you thinking we must be a scum pair?
I in no way said your town read on Morgrim was scummy. I said three other things were scummy. I was merely using the last sentence of that first quote as a way to introduce my vote (but sorry for the confusion).
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Oh, looks like I missed Eevee's small roleclaim. Hmmmmmmmmm.
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More detailed rebuttal, hope I don't mess up the quotes. Answered the top part already.
Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?
This comes off as something like "wow am I really getting away with this?"
I hadn't posted in ages and felt guilty for not doing my part in helping town. It was exactly as you described, except I didnt really want to get away with it.
Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.
I call shenanigans on this. It seems like a very nice excuse for voting for town. It's asking to be absolved of any responsibility in event of a mislynch. "Oh, I thought they were town, but I couldn't resist the bonus just in case!" And it seems like a plausible part of a role, of course, because someone else has already claimed an analogous one.
I know we're getting toward the deadline, and I'm making a plurality lynch more difficult by voting someone with no votes on currently. But there are still undecided people out there, and we've still got some time, so hop on the wagon if you like the case.
.
I disagree that scum would benefit from making a lie like this, because it would also force them to vote for their scumbuddy if he was to become our target. I think the "restriction" is anti-nolynch, nothing else, and I'm sure hoping we all are anti-nolynch. I can arrange it so that I "swap" votes with someone, as in vote against my reads if someone who wants to vote for that person promises to unvote (same number of votes but I get my benefit of being on the wagon) if so desired.
PPE 4 posts
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I'm going to have to reread Joth. It feels like he's just latching on to other people's arguments and not coming up with ones himself.
Don't bother. You're 100% right that this is what I'm doing.
But, like, somebody has to. When the only acceptable town play is for everyone to come up with their own 100% unique case, you get a vote count that looks like the one we have. If we ACTUALLY want a lynch, some people have to sheep. Critical thinking is still involved, to decide which reads to sheep and which not to.
You realize that you can come up with 1% your own case, right? It's not just 100% or 0%...
I'll hold off voting for you till I reread tonight.
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I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
Your last act as town was helping lynch sparky, who I had no clue was scum.
I was mostly sheeping Grujah because I had no clue of what was happening (sparky's scumminess was literally my ONLY read and it was mostly gut-based and my gut has lost games for town in this very forum).
I probably didn't make it clear how unsure of everything I was in that game, so your misguided trust actually makes some sense.
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I think the proper way to deal with the whole 2nd/3rd tier votes is that if there aren't obviously 2 wagons or so after everyone votes that we take an imaginary votecount where everyone's 2nd votes count too and figure out if we have wagons. If we do, then those are the wagons and everyone shifts around like that. It's kinda like Instant Runoff Voting which is great in huge groups like this.
I second this motion.
I don't think joth's "scumslip" was a scumslip, but making an argument against eHalcyon without looking to see if the thing he accused him of actually happened actually reads town to me. Scum tend to be very cautious when they misrepresent people, I doubt scum-joth would have made that kind of a blatant mistake.
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Vote Count 1.22
shraeye (2) -- ftl, Captain_Frisk
Glooble (1) -- yuma
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, ehunt
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Watno
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (2) -- Young Nick, Eevee
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (2) -- Galzria, TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
Galzria (1) -- Dsell
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (4) -- shraeye, Axxle, Morgrim7
Eevee (1) -- Cuzz
Not Voting (5) -- Grujah, O, eHalcyon, sparky5856, jotheonah
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Also, fully aware that I'm voting for a voting plan that makes my own lynch way more likely. Still think its the way to go.
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Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.
Well I missed this. Makes me feel better about cayvie's announcement, I was silently wondering whether she was just brazenly lying or not.
Danger mod-speculation ahead:
Do you guys think Robz would have made this restriction symmetric? Giving one to scum and one to town? I know I would.
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Getting light town read from Eevee and light scum read from cayvie btw.
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They both encourage towny behavior at least (not voting for townies / voting for scum). If scum has any, I expect it to be like this too (in which case they obviously are not going to tell us).
So, no, I think I cayvie is town.
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I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
How is me having a town read on Morg scummy, Cuzz? Because you are scum with him and know I'm wrong? I almost never OMGUS, but man am I tempted to do it here.
@shraeye
It's possible I'm wrong about morgrim. Why is my read scummy though? Are you thinking we must be a scum pair?
Naw, I don't go so far as to say you're scummy. I had you at a 20% pro-lynch. That's less scummy than some people. Interesting reaction to me saying Cuzz's case seemed decent, though. Your Morgrim-read is off, but that doesn't make you scummy by itself.
I was happy to see shraeye also vote for jotheonah but disappointed it was for silly reasons.
The "scumslip" still feels fishy for me, but I'm cutting it a little slack due to cayvie's explanation. Another part of my joth case is his really powerful reaction to the two times that a single vote landed on him. I assume those are parts of your case. Could you clarify your case to me, as I still have joth at 60% prolynch? thanks!
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Danger mod-speculation ahead:
Do you guys think Robz would have made this restriction symmetric? Giving one to scum and one to town? I know I would.
I've had this speculation as well. Also, Eevee
They both encourage towny behavior at least (not voting for townies / voting for scum). If scum has any, I expect it to be like this too (in which case they obviously are not going to tell us).
So, no, I think I cayvie is town.
this post looks slightly edited.
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Voltaire: Plays like I would expect scum Volt to. Slight scum read.
So did you think I was playing scummy in those games?
Re: the case on Galz - he made an eloquent defense and I'm not really sure what to think. That said, it makes Dsell's pressing pretty town to me. I don't think I had him in that column before. Well, he is for now.
50+ pages in and I have a pile of "maybe town," a giant pile of "nothing" and a small pile of "hmmm." This is not good.
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I was happy to see shraeye also vote for jotheonah but disappointed it was for silly reasons.
The "scumslip" still feels fishy for me, but I'm cutting it a little slack due to cayvie's explanation. Another part of my joth case is his really powerful reaction to the two times that a single vote landed on him. I assume those are parts of your case. Could you clarify your case to me, as I still have joth at 60% prolynch? thanks!
Yes, good, I was hoping someone else picked up on that. I didn't catch his squirming both times (others pointed it out) but I think I was the first to notice it was a pattern. That just seems really unnecessary on D1.
It's not a strong case because I've lost all of my strong reads (Captain_Frisk, for example). That said, I see the case aganist jotheonah as follows: squirming with one vote, self-admitted sheeping of others (though that's weird scum play, but your WIFOM may vary), and wracking up an impressive post count without having deep contributions (fully admit this is flimsy, as he pointed out the doublevote, tried to make others realize different playstyles are ok, etc.) That said, I really don't see a case for scum ehunt, and I don't like anyone approving of it. Sorting out misguided town from scum is the trick.
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Hi just checking in. I'm going to address a few thoughts up to that point real quick.
- First and foremost, I am definitely not going to have time to read the first 40 pages of this game. I will use the shraeye index, but that is obviously not as good as reading.
- Second off, I see that some people have called me out for lurking. Some think I am complaining about a lack of a summary (though I have one now, so hurray) and about how little time I have. I don't have much time. That's the reality of it. I signed up for a newbie-friendly game. I don't think a game that posts 7 pages in one day is newbie-friendly. See it as scummy if you will, but that's life.
It's not like I'm a soon-to-be father, but I am starting college. While in high school and during summer, my schedule is completely different. I have to go make new friends now. That takes time and effort. Time and effort that has to come from somewhere, aka Mafia.
I'm still staying in, though. I am doing my check-ins, trying to get caught up and getting into a routine where I can spend time on Mafia everyday. That schedule isn't set yet, but will hopefully be soon.
- Lastly, I do have a few reads. Mainly, I do think eHalc's "directing the cop" was a bit weird, even if he prefaced it. I understand that he supports investigating Morgrim in all games, but man, I would rather have my PR's keep their options more open. I do think he has said some fishy stuff, all of which he has been called out on. I do find that most reads I get are expressed by someone else hours before I even am at a computer. Like this whole vote-for-information type thing. It clearly is hedging. Hopefully today I can get caught up, and thus post up-to-date reads.
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So yeah, call me out on "actilurking," but that's not what's going on.
I am quite aware of the soft deadline fast approaching and will get my vote in by then.
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Alright I am going to look at the people with votes on them: from highest to lowest (at least as I am typing this up)
Morgrim7 (4) - Morgrim is an enigma. Because his behavior is very, very consistent. The only time he deviated away from his stereotypical behavior (at least in the games I have been in) was when he was Vigilante in MIX. The interesting thing about his behavior is that it is actually fairly easy to replicate as mafia. (Low post count, sheeping reads, voting w/o explanation) but it is a little risky because it makes people want to lynch him. But Morgrim does have a decent survival rate lately (he survived all game in MVI and was the last player killed in MIX), so perhaps that risk is lessened of late.
Axxle (2) - I still think that at some point we need to discuss the implications of a scum aligned double voting Axxle could have on town. But I don't think that Axxle should be lynched today, especially as he will be able to help us reach a lynch with that double vote, that and he is one of the few people that I have a town read on.
shraeye (2) - Town read on shraeye. Partly because the two people voting him I have moderately scum reads on. The thing about shraeye is that he is willing and ready to pick and stick with fights and arguments. He has argued with Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, Insomniac, yuma, O, Glooble, Watno, Cuzz, cayvie, ftl, eevee and I am sure more that I missed He is constantly sticking his neck out. If he is scum, he will slip (some suggested that he already has) eventually if he continues to post this much, and if he is town I expect him to continue this behavior into subsequent days. A failure for him to do so, will read scum.
eHalcyon (2) - I've had a town read on eHal, but the longer he goes w/o voting for someone, the more that town read goes away. Note: someone said that he hadn't voted all game? He did vote for jot at one point at about midgame.
Grujah (2) - is he V/LA? He hasn't posted since September 22, 11 pm forum time. Can we get a prod for Grujah? But in the time that he has been on, he has posted nothing. I believe he has posted the least amount of substance out of any other player
Voltaire (1) - more of a scum read here: his posts remind me of ashersky, but less aggressive and argumentative. He seems to be trying to question everyone, but do so nicely w/o bringing any suspicion on himself.
Captain_Frisk (1) - either he is scum w/ little content, which is suspicious; or he is town w/ little content, which is too bad because he generally has really good analysis and understanding of the game, but I understand he has RL commitments. So he is a scum read, but it could be a RL scum read.
Young Nick (1) - scummy read; he has had time to read and catch up and provide analysis.
jotheonah (1) - jot's playstyle includes a lot of short, slightly sarcastic posts... that is just how he is. That said, he does seem guilty of opportunistic voting and sheeping; he consistently votes for ehunt--then votes somewhere else for a bit--and then comes back to ehunt (interesting that ehunt currently has no votes on him, for I think the first time since vote count 1.4.) so I have a scummy read on jot.
Insomniac (1) - Insomniac tends to get night killed if town, so if he survives night 1 he is scum right? /joke... No, I have a town read on Insomniac.
Galzria (1) - Town read for Galz. I am in agreement with him in regard to his lurker stance.
ftl (1) - ftl looks to me like a perfect example of scum trying at the beginning of the game to be active and fully participate, but as the game wore on, it became more and more difficult to keep up and not make a mistake, so instead of posting more and potentially making a mistake, he slowly sinks into the background.
Eevee (1) - Eevee.... hmm.... I always get a pretty good town read on Eevee--except that one time that I shot him--and he always ends up being town. I still have a town read on him.
Glooble (1) - the guy I am currently voting for. I still find him scummy and surprised that other people aren't. Although I guess he is on a couple of people's secondary votes. But I don't put any stock in secondary votes. The first one is the one that counts.
I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
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So did you think I was playing scummy in those games?
No, but you are slightly less helpful and feel a little less genuine here. But the town is huge, I don't know. Yuma makes an excellent point that Ftl is playing the exact scum game I'm looking to hunt here.
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Second vote - Watno - I found Munch to be pretty clear awhile back, and the way Watno keep pushing him and twisting Munch's meaning seemed really off to me. I don't know that scum would be so bold, but I wouldn't rule it out, and he really stood out to me as scummy in that debate.
Seriously, where do i twist Munch's meaning?
On another note,
FOS: Volt
Volt teases at a big case against me, making it sound like he has a lot written up but it just needs some polish. Turns out there is nothing at all, and the seed of it is entirely worthless (IMO). It also reminds me of MIII, where Volt was scum.
I'll let it go because of his IRL busy-ness and need to /out, but still -- FOS.
I think this is quite scummy. You suspect him, but let go because of his reasons that don't really invalidate what you said. I don't get what your actual stance is from this at all.
I agree that a lynch looses a lot of its information value if we just do it for information.
Sadly, Morgrim is Morgrim and cant really be read. I don't agree with shraeye that this isn't a reason not to vote him. Since Morgrim behaves strangly every game, lynching him because of it is kinda random in regards to what alignment he'll have.
I also agree with eHalc that people should give reasons for their votes.
Voltaire, what are you referring to with Eevee's small roleclaim?
Also, fully aware that I'm voting for a voting plan that makes my own lynch way more likely. Still think its the way to go.
This one looks scummy to me too. Pointing out that what you're doing might be to your own detriment always feels to me like calling out "Look here, I'm doing this for the greater good, so I must be town)
My main suspicions are Grujah, Glooble and Captain_Frisk for not posting much and saying even less. Add the above for Glooble and the weird vote on Munch for Frisk. It looks like Grujah is the one with the highest chance of getting consensus on, so for the sake of avoiding nolynch vote Grujah
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My main suspicions are Grujah, Glooble and Captain_Frisk for not posting much and saying even less. Add the above for Glooble and the weird vote on Munch for Frisk. It looks like Grujah is the one with the highest chance of getting consensus on, so for the sake of avoiding nolynch vote Grujah
Are you talking about Frisk voting for me for editing my post?
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yes
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Cayvie, why would a cult leader inform the town of the existence of the cult? Well, he wouldnt but I dont even care about that.
WHY IS WHAT YOU SAID I DID SCUMMY? I could argue why it's not, but I'll let you make your case first in case I'm missing something.
Hey, I considered it in RMM2. But you're probably right, a normal cult leader most likely wouldn't.
The second question: I think it's scummy because it feels like a cobbled-together position. The post feels like a bunch of individual statements that, while each is okay on its own, don't come from the same viewpoint.
Also the bit about your lynch bonus reads like "hey, now i have an excuse to hammer anyone!"
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shraeye (2) - Town read on shraeye. Partly because the two people voting him I have moderately scum reads on. The thing about shraeye is that he is willing and ready to pick and stick with fights and arguments. He has argued with Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, Insomniac, yuma, O, Glooble, Watno, Cuzz, cayvie, ftl, eevee and I am sure more that I missed He is constantly sticking his neck out. If he is scum, he will slip (some suggested that he already has) eventually if he continues to post this much, and if he is town I expect him to continue this behavior into subsequent days. A failure for him to do so, will read scum.
best argument for shraeye's townieness yet
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I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
vote: yuma for blantly and openly wagoning.
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Now I get into WIFOM situation where somebody will point out:
"scum yuma is way more slick"
Well, cuz we all thing so, he can afford not to be.
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Cayvie, why would a cult leader inform the town of the existence of the cult? Well, he wouldnt but I dont even care about that.
WHY IS WHAT YOU SAID I DID SCUMMY? I could argue why it's not, but I'll let you make your case first in case I'm missing something.
Hey, I considered it in RMM2. But you're probably right, a normal cult leader most likely wouldn't.
The second question: I think it's scummy because it feels like a cobbled-together position. The post feels like a bunch of individual statements that, while each is okay on its own, don't come from the same viewpoint.
Also the bit about your lynch bonus reads like "hey, now i have an excuse to hammer anyone!"
I won't use my role as an excuse to do something anti-town. However, it is in town's interest to ensure, one way or another, that I end up being a part of the lynch. That can be arranged without ridiculous quickhammers and such. We are going to lynch someone every day after all.
I'm sorry if I mischaracterized your play. It is a big town, it's hard to keep everyone straight, I did try my best. Don't see what advantage I would get from being untruthful about my read on you if I was scum though, so I really just don't get the suspicion at all. Feels like a personal attack!
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I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
vote: yuma for blantly and openly wagoning.
you are gone for 4 days and that is all you got?
Do you want to get to a lynch today? If you do. A wagon is going to have to happen.
Yeah, I'll keep my vote on you.
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Cayvie, why would a cult leader inform the town of the existence of the cult? Well, he wouldnt but I dont even care about that.
WHY IS WHAT YOU SAID I DID SCUMMY? I could argue why it's not, but I'll let you make your case first in case I'm missing something.
Hey, I considered it in RMM2. But you're probably right, a normal cult leader most likely wouldn't.
The second question: I think it's scummy because it feels like a cobbled-together position. The post feels like a bunch of individual statements that, while each is okay on its own, don't come from the same viewpoint.
Also the bit about your lynch bonus reads like "hey, now i have an excuse to hammer anyone!"
I won't use my role as an excuse to do something anti-town. However, it is in town's interest to ensure, one way or another, that I end up being a part of the lynch. That can be arranged without ridiculous quickhammers and such. We are going to lynch someone every day after all.
I'm sorry if I mischaracterized your play. It is a big town, it's hard to keep everyone straight, I did try my best. Don't see what advantage I would get from being untruthful about my read on you if I was scum though, so I really just don't get the suspicion at all. Feels like a personal attack!
A personal attack? What? That's really weird, Eevee.
Fortunately for you, Grujah is back and scummier than ever! I am curious to see if he can get out of this.
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I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
vote: yuma for blantly and openly wagoning.
you are gone for 4 days and that is all you got?
Do you want to get to a lynch today? If you do. A wagon is going to have to happen.
Yeah, I'll keep my vote on you.
I agree. He was in one of my top 3, and we really should start looking to consolidate. Since my #1 choice (eHal) seems to be met with equal parts adamant opposition and slight consideration, it really doesn't seem to be a productive choice. So I'll vote where there we might get something going - the fact that it's not on a town-read makes it all the better for me.
Vote: Grujah
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I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
vote: yuma for blantly and openly wagoning.
you are gone for 4 days and that is all you got?
Do you want to get to a lynch today? If you do. A wagon is going to have to happen.
Yeah, I'll keep my vote on you.
Wagon "happening" is one thing. You vote for whom you think is most likely scum, if people agree, wagon forms. You noting who has votes on already, than voting for one of them who you 'consider most scummy' to try to force-form a wagon into a mislynch is scummy.
And here I am not really 'most scummy' but a fallout lynch, i.e. I didn't really do anything to warrant a vote, but I was inactive and it's easy to get a wagon started on me.
It's RMM1 all over again (cept there I just posted random crap instead )
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I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
vote: yuma for blantly and openly wagoning.
you are gone for 4 days and that is all you got?
Do you want to get to a lynch today? If you do. A wagon is going to have to happen.
Yeah, I'll keep my vote on you.
Wagon "happening" is one thing. You vote for whom you think is most likely scum, if people agree, wagon forms. You noting who has votes on already, than voting for one of them who you 'consider most scummy' to try to force-form a wagon into a mislynch is scummy.
And here I am not really 'most scummy' but a fallout lynch, i.e. I didn't really do anything to warrant a vote, but I was inactive and it's easy to get a wagon started on me.
It's RMM1 all over again (cept there I just posted random crap instead )
Look, there are 25 people in this game. If each of us vote for who we think is "most" scummy, we will get about 5 people with 4 votes each. That isn't going to work.
You are in a group of about 4 people that are high on my scum radar. I have been suspicious of you since midgame where I put together a similar list. I had originally voted Glooble, but in all the time that I have had my vote on him, no one has joined me. So, yes, I changed my vote from someone I saw scummy to someone who I saw scummy.
I agree that changing my vote from someone that I consider scummy to someone that I had a read on would be more questionable.... But I didn't. Both you and Glooble are scummy to me. You simply appear to be more likely a lynch candidate, and I for one actually think we need to follow a soft deadline, so I am voting for you.
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I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
vote: yuma for blantly and openly wagoning.
you are gone for 4 days and that is all you got?
Do you want to get to a lynch today? If you do. A wagon is going to have to happen.
Yeah, I'll keep my vote on you.
Wagon "happening" is one thing. You vote for whom you think is most likely scum, if people agree, wagon forms. You noting who has votes on already, than voting for one of them who you 'consider most scummy' to try to force-form a wagon into a mislynch is scummy.
And here I am not really 'most scummy' but a fallout lynch, i.e. I didn't really do anything to warrant a vote, but I was inactive and it's easy to get a wagon started on me.
It's RMM1 all over again (cept there I just posted random crap instead )
Look, there are 25 people in this game. If each of us vote for who we think is "most" scummy, we will get about 5 people with 4 votes each. That isn't going to work.
You are in a group of about 4 people that are high on my scum radar. I have been suspicious of you since midgame where I put together a similar list. I had originally voted Glooble, but in all the time that I have had my vote on him, no one has joined me. So, yes, I changed my vote from someone I saw scummy to someone who I saw scummy.
I agree that changing my vote from someone that I consider scummy to someone that I had a read on would be more questionable.... But I didn't. Both you and Glooble are scummy to me. You simply appear to be more likely a lynch candidate, and I for one actually think we need to follow a soft deadline, so I am voting for you.
yuma is right, in a game this size, sheeping reads and keeping scum options higher than just 1 person is a must if we want a lynch to actually happen.
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Cayvie, why would a cult leader inform the town of the existence of the cult? Well, he wouldnt but I dont even care about that.
WHY IS WHAT YOU SAID I DID SCUMMY? I could argue why it's not, but I'll let you make your case first in case I'm missing something.
Hey, I considered it in RMM2. But you're probably right, a normal cult leader most likely wouldn't.
The second question: I think it's scummy because it feels like a cobbled-together position. The post feels like a bunch of individual statements that, while each is okay on its own, don't come from the same viewpoint.
Also the bit about your lynch bonus reads like "hey, now i have an excuse to hammer anyone!"
I won't use my role as an excuse to do something anti-town. However, it is in town's interest to ensure, one way or another, that I end up being a part of the lynch. That can be arranged without ridiculous quickhammers and such. We are going to lynch someone every day after all.
I'm sorry if I mischaracterized your play. It is a big town, it's hard to keep everyone straight, I did try my best. Don't see what advantage I would get from being untruthful about my read on you if I was scum though, so I really just don't get the suspicion at all. Feels like a personal attack!
A personal attack? What? That's really weird, Eevee.
Fortunately for you, Grujah is back and scummier than ever! I am curious to see if he can get out of this.
What I mean by that is feels like you took offense in me mischaracterizing your play and sort of OMGUS'd me, looking for reasons to vote me "for punishment". Maybe I'm wrong and that's not what happened but I don't really see any legitimate way to end up in voting me based on the parts about you in my post.
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I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah
vote: yuma for blantly and openly wagoning.
you are gone for 4 days and that is all you got?
Do you want to get to a lynch today? If you do. A wagon is going to have to happen.
Yeah, I'll keep my vote on you.
Wagon "happening" is one thing. You vote for whom you think is most likely scum, if people agree, wagon forms. You noting who has votes on already, than voting for one of them who you 'consider most scummy' to try to force-form a wagon into a mislynch is scummy.
And here I am not really 'most scummy' but a fallout lynch, i.e. I didn't really do anything to warrant a vote, but I was inactive and it's easy to get a wagon started on me.
It's RMM1 all over again (cept there I just posted random crap instead )
Look, there are 25 people in this game. If each of us vote for who we think is "most" scummy, we will get about 5 people with 4 votes each. That isn't going to work.
You are in a group of about 4 people that are high on my scum radar. I have been suspicious of you since midgame where I put together a similar list. I had originally voted Glooble, but in all the time that I have had my vote on him, no one has joined me. So, yes, I changed my vote from someone I saw scummy to someone who I saw scummy.
I agree that changing my vote from someone that I consider scummy to someone that I had a read on would be more questionable.... But I didn't. Both you and Glooble are scummy to me. You simply appear to be more likely a lynch candidate, and I for one actually think we need to follow a soft deadline, so I am voting for you.
OK, you got a point that you cannot keep a vote only for your most scum read, and that statement kinda missed the point I was trying to make, blah.
(which was, really, voting on a guy just cuz you think he is likeliest to get lynched. I might have also wronged cuz you didn't express anything overly negative against me in that last post, but you might have had before, I missed quite)
As for Gloob, I kept a vote on him, I could change back. Though my vote is mainly cuz he seemed like standard scumGlob, but with no townGlob to compare.
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As for Gloob, I kept a vote on him, I could change back. Though my vote is mainly cuz he seemed like standard scumGlob, but with no townGlob to compare.
I think we can all agree about one thing: scumGlob is a really disgusting nickname.
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Fortunately for you, Grujah is back and scummier than ever! I am curious to see if he can get out of this.
Wait, what?
So, you are basically sidelining, rooting for me to get killed and fueling fire?
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Fortunately for you, Grujah is back and scummier than ever! I am curious to see if he can get out of this.
Wait, what?
So, you are basically sidelining, rooting for me to get killed and fueling fire?
Basically!
I'll put you at
Primary: Grujah
Secondary: Eevee
Tertiary: Axxle
if it makes you feel better about it.
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SO, why Voting YN than?
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SO, why Voting YN than?
Because I don't think he'll be lynched. If there's a wagon on him, I'll move to like, O, or something.
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Speaking of O, where is the guy?
Ah yes, "always down to lynch galzria" yesterday.
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SO, why Voting YN than?
Because I don't think he'll be lynched. If there's a wagon on him, I'll move to like, O, or something.
Wait, wat? Makes no sense.
I know you kinda softclaimed something but I seem to be the only one that doesn't get it.
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SO, why Voting YN than?
Because I don't think he'll be lynched. If there's a wagon on him, I'll move to like, O, or something.
Wait, wat? Makes no sense.
I know you kinda softclaimed something but I seem to be the only one that doesn't get it.
I am not going to be on the lynch today unless my vote is absolutely required for there to be a lynch at all.
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SO, why Voting YN than?
Because I don't think he'll be lynched. If there's a wagon on him, I'll move to like, O, or something.
Wait, wat? Makes no sense.
I know you kinda softclaimed something but I seem to be the only one that doesn't get it.
I am not going to be on the lynch today unless my vote is absolutely required for there to be a lynch at all.
Which actually gives us information anyways because we know you support the lynch but we get an extra person on the wagon.
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On Dsell vs. Galz: both look town for me, based on the argument. My earlier read of Galz' posts left me at neutral.
Re: Axxle's #1321: I think Morgrim is a good target for Cop in that it's unlikely we'll catch him otherwise if he's scum. But maybe there is more utility in clearing/catching others; I can buy that. I am OK with voting "for information" when you also think the player is scummy. Null reads I am less sold on.
Re: shraeye's #1324: I stand by my positions. You are correct that Morgrim is scary, but I don't think you understand why a Morgrim lynch is worthless. Morgrim is always rather erratic, and that makes him entirely unreadable. He has self-hammered as town. He pretty much never defends himself. In BMV he was the freaking vig and he literally asked the town to lynch him. And they did. If we lynch Morgrim, we gain pretty much no info because of Morgrim's style. I'd rather lynch anyone else, even myself, so that the town can get useful info out of it. Nonetheless, Morgrim has to be checked eventually. This is why I think he is a decent Cop/Vig target. Since you have a town read on me, maybe you'll believe me when I say that. Or you'll just count it among other things we disagree about. I don't know about jo's "scumslip" anymore, because these kinds of slips can be made by town anyway.
Re: yuma's #1374: I am always stingy with my vote.
Re: Watno's #1376: I found Volt suspicious for the reasons stated, but mitigating circumstances mean that I should hold back. With sparky subbing in, I am willing to give him an opportunity to catch up and play the game. He gets a tentative pass, for now.
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I dont want to move my vote for no reason, but I would like to see a lynch happen, if only for personal reasons (I cant be the ONLY person here excited about RTR this weekend and doesn't want to be worried about the lynch votes going through in the final second). I'm going to go back and reread some stuff from Grujah as I didn't necessarily have a read on him; although, I do side with Yuma and Shraeye, if the last few IRL days weren't any evidence, there is no way anyone is getting lynched with our very scattered opinions.
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I dont want to move my vote for no reason, but I would like to see a lynch happen, if only for personal reasons (I cant be the ONLY person here excited about RTR this weekend and doesn't want to be worried about the lynch votes going through in the final second). I'm going to go back and reread some stuff from Grujah as I didn't necessarily have a read on him; although, I do side with Yuma and Shraeye, if the last few IRL days weren't any evidence, there is no way anyone is getting lynched with our very scattered opinions.
My local store has 4 pre release events spanning sat and sun...I'm in all of them...
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People whom I feel have not contributed or "stuck their necks out":
- Grujah
- Glooble
- Young_Nick
- O
- Cuzz
- ibgtennis
- Captain_Frisk
I have a general town read on O, though I am worried he is scum skating by.
Vote: Grujah
I think he has lurked hard, which is really unusual for him. He returns just when it starts to heat up for him, and his posts read scummy. This wagon has a decent chance of lift-off, and I have decent reads on most on the wagon so far (not sure of the vote count though).
Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch.
Consider anyone else on the above list (besides O) as secondary picks.
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Speaking of O, where is the guy?
Ah yes, "always down to lynch galzria" yesterday.
I think he said somewhere that he was starting school this week, so activity would be limited.
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I dont want to move my vote for no reason, but I would like to see a lynch happen, if only for personal reasons (I cant be the ONLY person here excited about RTR this weekend and doesn't want to be worried about the lynch votes going through in the final second). I'm going to go back and reread some stuff from Grujah as I didn't necessarily have a read on him; although, I do side with Yuma and Shraeye, if the last few IRL days weren't any evidence, there is no way anyone is getting lynched with our very scattered opinions.
I'm going to RTR as well, FWIW.
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People whom I feel have not contributed or "stuck their necks out":
- Grujah
- Glooble
- Young_Nick
- O
- Cuzz
- ibgtennis
- Captain_Frisk
I have a general town read on O, though I am worried he is scum skating by.
Vote: Grujah
I think he has lurked hard, which is really unusual for him. He returns just when it starts to heat up for him, and his posts read scummy. This wagon has a decent chance of lift-off, and I have decent reads on most on the wagon so far (not sure of the vote count though).
Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch.
Consider anyone else on the above list (besides O) as secondary picks.
Man message was received when people called me out for being quiet yesterday. That's why I explained my vote last night, shared my town reads, weighed in on the lynch for info discussion and then posted an unbelievably well-reasoned argument against Eevee earlier today that no one seems to like, but still you can't say I've contributed "nothing."
Vote: Grujah. He was gonna be my second choice anyway and we need to make sure a lynch happens. I apparently suck at saying anything productive on D1 so I'll be happy to get it over with.
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Man message was received when people called me out for being quiet yesterday. That's why I explained my vote last night, shared my town reads, weighed in on the lynch for info discussion and then posted an unbelievably well-reasoned argument against Eevee earlier today that no one seems to like, but still you can't say I've contributed "nothing."
Vote: Grujah. He was gonna be my second choice anyway and we need to make sure a lynch happens. I apparently suck at saying anything productive on D1 so I'll be happy to get it over with.
OK, noted. You contributed a little bit more recently. But only coming out to speak when called on it isn't all that praiseworthy. :P
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Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch.
Cuz CE requiers like a 5 minute scimm. Mafia does not. Ask anyone involved.
I hate to bring RL into forum mafia, but I was working Tue-Sat, and moved to where I study monday (where I found out my internet has been cut so I have to steal this slow one from neighbours). Sunday I should have posted but I was lazy. :-\
Thing is I am getting policy lynched for lurking even though I seemed to be less lurky than say, ibgt. But, the reason is that people expect me to be superactive as I ussually am all the time. Sigh.
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Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch.
Cuz CE requiers like a 5 minute scimm. Mafia does not. Ask anyone involved.
I hate to bring RL into forum mafia, but I was working Tue-Sat, and moved to where I study monday (where I found out my internet has been cut so I have to steal this slow one from neighbours). Sunday I should have posted but I was lazy. :-\
Thing is I am getting policy lynched for lurking even though I seemed to be less lurky than say, ibgt. But, the reason is that people expect me to be superactive as I ussually am all the time. Sigh.
Why didn't you announce a semi-V/LA? Or, when people started voting for you, why didn't you apologize and explain?
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Re: Axxle's #1321: I think Morgrim is a good target for Cop in that it's unlikely we'll catch him otherwise if he's scum. But maybe there is more utility in clearing/catching others; I can buy that. I am OK with voting "for information" when you also think the player is scummy. Null reads I am less sold on.
Regardless of whether Morgrim is scum or not, he's a liability to the town (he's antitown as town). We *have* to policy lynch him at some point. It's a waste of a cop use because of this fact.
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Vote Count 1.23
shraeye (2) -- ftl, Captain_Frisk
Grujah (7) -- Glooble, ehunt, yuma, watno, Galzria, eHalcyon, Cuzz
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (2) -- Young Nick, Eevee
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
Galzria (1) -- Dsell
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (4) -- shraeye, Axxle, Morgrim7
yuma (1) -- Grujah
Not Voting (3) -- O, sparky5856, jotheonah
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Re: Axxle's #1321: I think Morgrim is a good target for Cop in that it's unlikely we'll catch him otherwise if he's scum. But maybe there is more utility in clearing/catching others; I can buy that. I am OK with voting "for information" when you also think the player is scummy. Null reads I am less sold on.
Regardless of whether Morgrim is scum or not, he's a liability to the town (he's antitown as town). We *have* to policy lynch him at some point. It's a waste of a cop use because of this fact.
You're saying if a cop investigated Morgim7 and got a town result, you'd want to lynch him anyway?
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When's our softdeadline for plurality?
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Re: Axxle's #1321: I think Morgrim is a good target for Cop in that it's unlikely we'll catch him otherwise if he's scum. But maybe there is more utility in clearing/catching others; I can buy that. I am OK with voting "for information" when you also think the player is scummy. Null reads I am less sold on.
Regardless of whether Morgrim is scum or not, he's a liability to the town (he's antitown as town). We *have* to policy lynch him at some point. It's a waste of a cop use because of this fact.
OK, I can cede that a Cop has better things to do. Vig makes sense in this case though -- eliminate the distraction without wasting a lynch. Unless Vig has strong town read on Morgrim (unlikely) or strong scum read on someone else (possible).
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Re: Axxle's #1321: I think Morgrim is a good target for Cop in that it's unlikely we'll catch him otherwise if he's scum. But maybe there is more utility in clearing/catching others; I can buy that. I am OK with voting "for information" when you also think the player is scummy. Null reads I am less sold on.
Regardless of whether Morgrim is scum or not, he's a liability to the town (he's antitown as town). We *have* to policy lynch him at some point. It's a waste of a cop use because of this fact.
You're saying if a cop investigated Morgim7 and got a town result, you'd want to lynch him anyway?
I think the idea is that if Cop learns that Morgrim is town, is it worth outing himself to protect Morgrim?
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Vote: Morgrim
he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point.
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Plus, I think we should policy lynch everyone who votes for themself until people stop doing it.
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Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch.
Cuz CE requiers like a 5 minute scimm. Mafia does not. Ask anyone involved.
I hate to bring RL into forum mafia, but I was working Tue-Sat, and moved to where I study monday (where I found out my internet has been cut so I have to steal this slow one from neighbours). Sunday I should have posted but I was lazy. :-\
Thing is I am getting policy lynched for lurking even though I seemed to be less lurky than say, ibgt. But, the reason is that people expect me to be superactive as I ussually am all the time. Sigh.
Why didn't you announce a semi-V/LA? Or, when people started voting for you, why didn't you apologize and explain?
Meh, dunno, prolly a mistake, but I was already on V/LA and didn't follow much anyway.
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Still, I'm a fallout lynch and seems hard to believe that you guys don't have anyone better.
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"you guys" as I pretty much don't have anything much either.
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Still, I'm a fallout lynch and seems hard to believe that you guys don't have anyone better.
you guys = not part of the town = scumslip ?
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Vote: Morgrim
he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point.
Odd in what way?
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Still, I'm a fallout lynch and seems hard to believe that you guys don't have anyone better.
you guys = not part of the town = scumslip ?
I really doubt it.
I don't know how to feel about Grujah. His excuse is plausible.
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Still, I'm a fallout lynch and seems hard to believe that you guys don't have anyone better.
you guys = not part of the town = scumslip ?
I really doubt it.
I don't know how to feel about Grujah. His excuse is plausible.
He has been gone... yes... but when he has been around his excuse was "I was lazy" and "I just didn't add anything" That isn't good enough. He has been on, and had time to add something. He admitted as such. It isn't like he has been completely gone with absolutely no access. He has had access, limited access, and as such should have put forth a limited effort. He didn't. He didn't post for 4 days!!! This excuse isn't good enough.
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Vote: Morgrim
he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point.
Odd in what way?
he's actually participating MORE than usual, but with just as little content.
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Still, I'm a fallout lynch and seems hard to believe that you guys don't have anyone better.
you guys = not part of the town = scumslip ?
Hi there, "we townies". Mostly my post before yours, and "you guys" as I wasn't really active participant and most of this developed without me.
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Still, I'm a fallout lynch and seems hard to believe that you guys don't have anyone better.
you guys = not part of the town = scumslip ?
I really doubt it.
I don't know how to feel about Grujah. His excuse is plausible.
He has been gone... yes... but when he has been around his excuse was "I was lazy" and "I just didn't add anything" That isn't good enough. He has been on, and had time to add something. He admitted as such. It isn't like he has been completely gone with absolutely no access. He has had access, limited access, and as such should have put forth a limited effort. He didn't. He didn't post for 4 days!!! This excuse isn't good enough.
Mleh, you here are attacking Grujah as person, not Grujah as player of Mafia XI.
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Still, I'm a fallout lynch and seems hard to believe that you guys don't have anyone better.
you guys = not part of the town = scumslip ?
I really doubt it.
I don't know how to feel about Grujah. His excuse is plausible.
He has been gone... yes... but when he has been around his excuse was "I was lazy" and "I just didn't add anything" That isn't good enough. He has been on, and had time to add something. He admitted as such. It isn't like he has been completely gone with absolutely no access. He has had access, limited access, and as such should have put forth a limited effort. He didn't. He didn't post for 4 days!!! This excuse isn't good enough.
Mleh, you here are attacking Grujah as person, not Grujah as player of Mafia XI.
That was not my intent. I apologize if I offended.
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Vote: Morgrim
he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point.
Odd in what way?
he's actually participating MORE than usual, but with just as little content.
I don't think it's all that odd, for Morgrim.
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Hmm.. vote: Glooble again, as I got no better.
Yuma is strangly mad at me for being inactive, but now it seems a sincere town mad more than faked scum mad, esp with this second to last post.
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Hmm.. vote: Glooble again, as I got no better.
Yuma is strangly mad at me for being inactive, but now it seems a sincere town mad more than faked scum mad, esp with this second to last post.
Read over recent events and give an opinion on them, please. You're here now -- you can contribute something.
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eHalcyon, I VERY strongly disagree with you on Morgrim. It's exactly the opposite, if he is scum, he'll surely let us know eventually. The only time he was mafia, he claimed a rolecop when he meant cop.. He is an ok vig target but a terrible cop target, also not a good lynch for today (this is just my read.)
Grujah's defence doesn't read genuine to me. Vote: Grujah
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Hmm.. vote: Glooble again, as I got no better.
Yuma is strangly mad at me for being inactive, but now it seems a sincere town mad more than faked scum mad, esp with this second to last post.
Read over recent events and give an opinion on them, please. You're here now -- you can contribute something.
I agree with this. We still have a little time, he's not our only option. I'm not sure Grujah is a great lynch today, guys.
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eHalcyon, I VERY strongly disagree with you on Morgrim. It's exactly the opposite, if he is scum, he'll surely let us know eventually. The only time he was mafia, he claimed a rolecop when he meant cop.. He is an ok vig target but a terrible cop target, also not a good lynch for today (this is just my read.)
Grujah's defence doesn't read genuine to me. Vote: Grujah
That was in a true bastard game, and the mistake is easy to fix: just never claim. Morgrim's MO is such that it's very easy to follow, whether scum or townie. Despite his play style, I know Morgrim is a smart guy. I think he plays as he does because he has fun in the games but doesn't have time to put serious effort. And that's fine. But he's a smart guy and I think scum Morgrim can very easily keep up the appearance of Town Morgrim.
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eHalcyon, I VERY strongly disagree with you on Morgrim. It's exactly the opposite, if he is scum, he'll surely let us know eventually. The only time he was mafia, he claimed a rolecop when he meant cop.. He is an ok vig target but a terrible cop target, also not a good lynch for today (this is just my read.)
Grujah's defence doesn't read genuine to me. Vote: Grujah
That was in a true bastard game, and the mistake is easy to fix: just never claim. Morgrim's MO is such that it's very easy to follow, whether scum or townie. Despite his play style, I know Morgrim is a smart guy. I think he plays as he does because he has fun in the games but doesn't have time to put serious effort. And that's fine. But he's a smart guy and I think scum Morgrim can very easily keep up the appearance of Town Morgrim.
I do not agree, but obviously this isn't something I can prove to you by evidence so agree to disagree again. But really, you think spotting ScumGrin would be harder than ScumSomeoneelse? It's not like ANYONE of us just gives themselves away when mafia.
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Guys, don't lynch Morgrim. He's not even a good vig target IMO. If he's scum, he'll slip in some new way. Reread his last few posts and tell me that doesn't sound exactly like town Morgrim. Well, town-morgrim with a when-lynched ability, because Robz knew this day would come in this game when we lynch Morgrim for
no good reason playing like Morgrim. I feel like a broken record, defending Morgrim in like every game. But it's always the same.
Grujah as a lurker lynch is better than Morgrim as a Morgrim lynch.
I'd also be willing to lynch anyone on the current morgrim wagon. Especially joth, because he should know better, he's had so many games with Morg now.
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Guys, don't lynch Morgrim. He's not even a good vig target IMO. If he's scum, he'll slip in some new way. Reread his last few posts and tell me that doesn't sound exactly like town Morgrim.
(I don't want to go after Morg at all, but..)
And tell me how scum-morgrim looks like? (cuz we never saw one cept in BMIV which was completely nuts and nobody knew anything).
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No idea, we haven't seen scumMorg yet. But Morgrim has never been subtle in any of these games. When he's scum, we'll know.
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yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
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Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
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Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
PS I find it interesting that ehalc mentioned that if people just vote for someone to get them to die, we gain no information because everyone has an excuse. Yet ehalc is voting for grujah. I know he voiced different reasons for doing so but I just find it interesting.
PPE: @ashersky I'm gonna claim newbie on this one but, holy cow 25 people is a lot to keep track of and just from a "one less person to keep in my brain" standpoint I dont think I could go today with no lynch. I know people are going to die in the night but my brain cant take it. This shit is hard.
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I'd rather avoid a no-lynch. But the likely presence of two scum teams complicates things a little, I guess. They do tend to target each other, which decreases the number of scum. But that's no reason for the town not to use its main weapon.
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yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Because I am not voting for a lurker, I am voting for someone that I view to be scummy. that is all anyone can do at this point. I have found ibgtennis' posts to have content when he posted. Unless you have some substance to add in your upcoming post I would also be willing to vote for you. (Content allows town to analyze it and see if it matches up to town play, but no content results in a player being a mystery, something town doesn't want to be and mafia does.)
But as I said before, we are getting close to the (yes it is self-imposed, but for good reasons imo) soft-deadline, and as such we need to start gathering a consensus.
I am not voting Grujah just to get a lynch, I am voting for Grujah because I have a scummy read on him. I also have scummy reads on other players, but right now Grujah is the best candidate to lynch someone who I read scummy. So I am voting for him.
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Hey guys, the fake deadline is Wednesday night right? I'm not gonna be able to be there, so Vote: Grujah because he is the most likely person to be lynched, considering this is like the 10th vote on him.
Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
Go read M3. No, a no lynch is definitely not good.
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yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Because I am not voting for a lurker, I am voting for someone that I view to be scummy. that is all anyone can do at this point. I have found ibgtennis' posts to have content when he posted. Unless you have some substance to add in your upcoming post I would also be willing to vote for you. (Content allows town to analyze it and see if it matches up to town play, but no content results in a player being a mystery, something town doesn't want to be and mafia does.)
But as I said before, we are getting close to the (yes it is self-imposed, but for good reasons imo) soft-deadline, and as such we need to start gathering a consensus.
I am not voting Grujah just to get a lynch, I am voting for Grujah because I have a scummy read on him. I also have scummy reads on other players, but right now Grujah is the best candidate to lynch someone who I read scummy. So I am voting for him.
Just to get it straight, why do you find me scummy exactly?
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Hey guys, the fake deadline is Wednesday night right? I'm not gonna be able to be there, so Vote: Grujah because he is the most likely person to be lynched, considering this is like the 10th vote on him. Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
Go read M3. No, a no lynch is definitely not good.
Or MVIII. Nolynch is bad bad bad.
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Hey guys, the fake deadline is Wednesday night right? I'm not gonna be able to be there, so Vote: Grujah because he is the most likely person to be lynched, considering this is like the 10th vote on him. Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
Go read M3. No, a no lynch is definitely not good.
Or MVIII. Nolynch is bad bad bad.
Uggh, just caught up. Semi substantial post to follow, but did want to call this out. No lynch is awesome for scum. M8 Day 2 was one of my favorite days in forum mafia history.
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Vote: O - for not voting this close to deadline.
O's a strange fellow, so I never feel confident in my reads.
Secondary: Voltaire - for pushing that we all push secondary / tertiary votes. This feels like scum trying to give themselves an out to steer away from town consensus.
Tertiary: Shraeye - reasons given during my initial vote.
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Does anyone have a current votecount?
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I believe it is 9 for grujah, 5 for morgrim, less for everyone else.
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Does anyone have a current votecount?
Yes.
Vote Count 1.24
shraeye (1) -- ftl
Grujah (9) -- Glooble, ehunt, yuma, watno, Galzria, eHalcyon, Cuzz, Eevee, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
Galzria (1) -- Dsell
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (4) -- shraeye, Axxle, jotheonah
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
O (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (2) -- O, sparky5856
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
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We're actually getting a consensus? O.o I should read faster then. It'll probably be helpful to me to make mental notes along the way. Axxle requests that I watch eHalc closely.
I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.
That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.
I called it out because it jumped out to me, so I missed the context that framed it as snark. I recanted on a subsequent re-read.
I echo jo's thoughts on Galz.
Lot of I's in that post. Thinking about yourself huh? About not trying to make yourself get caught?
There are two primary components to mafia. One is psychological, and the other is mathematical/strategic. The presence of special roles highly accentuates the second aspect of the game. I will abbreviate the mathematical component as "theory."
F.DS is really bad at theory, and towns lose over and over because of it. I have no problem with being bossy on theory issues. For example, it's mathematically completely straightforward that the parity of the total population should be odd. Town does better with n town and m mafia than with n+1 town and m mafia when n + m is odd. You can easily check this with a computer if you don't believe me. Despite this basic fact, town lost MXI exclusively because a vigilante caused an even parity at LyLo, and lost MVIII at least partially for this reason (though town was in bad shape by that point in MVIII). This mistake is akin to something like opening mint/pearl diver. I have no problem being blunt about theory issues.
Now, if I've been bossy in a manner that people find rude, I sincerely apologize (and please call me out on it). I can't stand playing with people who call everyone an "idiot" over minor things. I certainly also make theory mistakes. I'm also not good at all at the psychological component of the game. But when I'm right about something theoretical, I'm going to be bold about it.
If the "bossiness" refers to my suggestion that others post infrequently but with more substance, see my answer below.
Overly town, typing eight posts about your thoughts seems a little excessive imo. I remember Volt in MIX was going really out of his way to analyze everyone closely in Day 2, to organize information on everyone, and he was the SK and won.
This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.
Now, there's one answer to this argument which I think bears a specific rebuttal. Cayvie says that people who talk spontaneously give us better reads. I don't know. I know that I got absolutely brutalized in MIX for reflexive phone-posting, causing town to lynch a doctor. Now, some of my wagon was scum, and obviously scum, and my death dragged them out, but I don't think it was worth it. Something similar happened in MVI. I thought that if I just posted all my thoughts without editing at all, it would be clear that I wasn't keeping any information from the town. Instead, my every typo became a "scumslip" and I said something foolish about a hypothetical Frisk proposed about which order theorel and I should be lynched in which caused an L - 1 wagon on me. If that wagon hadn't been boosted along by a bogus investirole-claim by ozle which was discovered to be fake due to it contradicting an earlier post of his, it would have been toodles for ehunt (and theorel would have gotten bogus town-cred out of it).
okay, so that explains it better. He's trying something new after his disaster run in MIX. But I don't necessarily agree with this. I tend to make less "noise" when I'm scum actually, because I'm just too cautious that a little snark will get me caught. Maybe it's something to analyze about someone. Regardless, experience backs him up here.
I believe the second ehunt vote is this:
Vote: ehunt
I have to say I was initially on board with ehunts idea; with such a large number of players I was smitten with the idea of less clutter more content. But as people actually started to refute this as being a bad idea it made me reevaluate my initial thoughts. Maybe its good in theory, bad in practice? Id rather encourage people to give themselves plenty of opportunities (through posting often) to produce inconsistent ideas which can be evaluated by the group. There might be more "junk" to sift through but all in all talking is good.
I don't get it. We disagree about an idea (how much signal-to-noise ratio should there be), therefore you vote for me? I am giving you a pass because you are new, but "we disagree on a theoretical issue" is not in and of itself a reason to vote. "We disagree on a theoretical issue and I think you know that I am right about the theoretical issue but you are intentionally trying to mislead the town into going the wrong way on the theoretical issue" - that would be a reason to vote for me. Is that why you voted for me? If so, you need to say it.
Agreed.
ehunt, your "one big post a day" approach - if followed by everyone - would make the game easier to play. There'd be less to read, less to follow, less to keep track of. But here's the problem: it also risks making it easier for scum to hide (and, therefore, win).
Getting people to chatter and then analyzing that chatter is one of Town's biggest weapons. Limiting chatter, therefore, reads to me as anti-town.
Hypothetically imagining a situation where eHunt's proposal was truly heard, saying that it's helpful to scum. Town read on myself.
Also, reading on, I think everyone was making too big a deal out of it. It was just a proposal. It was bad, we get it. Everyone didn't need to reiterate it, feels scummy to reiterate.
Whoops, copy+paste error.
This is my post 2.
There are two primary components to mafia. One is psychological, and the other is mathematical/strategic. The presence of special roles highly accentuates the second aspect of the game. I will abbreviate the mathematical component as "theory."
F.DS is really bad at theory, and towns lose over and over because of it. I have no problem with being bossy on theory issues. For example, it's mathematically completely straightforward that the parity of the total population should be odd. Town does better with n town and m mafia than with n+1 town and m mafia when n + m is odd. You can easily check this with a computer if you don't believe me. Despite this basic fact, town lost MXI exclusively because a vigilante caused an even parity at LyLo, and lost MVIII at least partially for this reason (though town was in bad shape by that point in MVIII). This mistake is akin to something like opening mint/pearl diver. I have no problem being blunt about theory issues.
What? This is MXI. Do you mean MIX? I thought town lost because SK Voltgloss had some weird super-voting power.
This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.
Your original post really wasn't phrased that way. It didn't even seem to suggest one big post + other little posts.
If everyone makes fewer posts in an effort to make posts more substantive... what will we all post about? We need something to discuss, and the conversational posts are what get us those topics. You might criticize a little post as "noise", but without that noise, you have nothing to criticize!
eHalc here does do some reiterating. Also with his first point, already mentioned in an earlier post.
skimming through now, as I believe eHunt is town and everyone else was just wasting time...
Well, O, your posts have been extremely unsatisfying but at least you showed up. So now I will vote: igbtennis to try to get the last lurker.
What? Wasn't he lurking himself?
farted?
Yes.
wow, wow, wow!
what just happened... i felt that cayvie posted a post that to me was confusing and that I didn't understand. I asked for clarification and now I am rolefishing? What does any of this have to do with role fishing?
Town reaction.
Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
OK, lots to say:
First, Unvote. Shraeye was a bad wagon. Sorry about that, didn't realize that was sarcasm. Meh. Me and my thick head :)
Secondly, Vote: O. He shows up, posts like twice, one of his posts being totally insignificant, and the other being just a vote. Thats...ugh. Why? O, you're better than that.
eHunt, I'm with you for the two-post-a-day thing, I really couldn't do more.
And lastly to yuma. L-5. Ugh this game is huge....
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Oh. Well. We certainly can't lynch you now then can we. Oh, please.
@yuma
Cayvie says "just a heads up, my role doesn't want to be on townie lynch wagons, so I'll refrain for voting unless I'm really sure". You reply by voting for her and asking for an explanation. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that people want to vote you for this. If you are town, you made a pretty serious mistake (which sadly often are the basis of f.Ds day 1 lynch wagons), and should at the very least be apologizing, not acting all surprised by our reaction.
I couldn't agree more. I'm fine with Cayvie's role not liking mislynch wagons. What could she possibly say to you? She can't quote her role. I think I'm actually gonna Vote: yuma. I'm OK with an O lynch too.
Very next post:
Yuma, are scum voting for you right now?
They have to. yuma explains himself SEVERAL times, almost always followed by another vote. It's like ">_<"
ehunt: how many times do I have to say this:
People have different playstyles, and that's OK.
Agreed.
Quoted for me to use in the future when I need it ;D
On page 27. Tired now, will continue later. You guys did not make this easy for me >_<
I did see that Morgrim self-voted though. Not liking that at all. Also Grujah has been super-lurky thus far in my reading. With a town this big, there HAVE to be scum lurkers.
For now VOTE: Morgrim, just not to make myself completely useless/voteless. Anyone object? I'm not caught up with recent discussions yet so forgive me if I'm rushing. I just wanna contribute something lol
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Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
Man, don't take the lazy way out.
The problem is, the lynch that I think is best is one of the least viable.
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Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
Are you saying "we're going to get a lot more information from nightkills, so let's not lynch"??? I know you're not actively suggesting it, but that sounds like a terrible argument to even consider. It just sounds like you think lynching someone will somehow stop NK information. I'd prefer both, please.
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Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
Are you saying "we're going to get a lot more information from nightkills, so let's not lynch"??? I know you're not actively suggesting it, but that sounds like a terrible argument to even consider. It just sounds like you think lynching someone will somehow stop NK information. I'd prefer both, please.
For the record, I think we should get a lynch today. I was just tossing out an alternate idea, basically given the size of this town, the length of this day, etc. I don't think a lynch affects what happens at night, but do think analyzing night stuff will probably add a lot more content than analyzing a policy/plurality lynch.
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Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
I agree with this. Although my read on Grujah isnt town, its nothing.
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yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
Why go for one of the others over Grujah? Serious question.
Re: ashersky's #1441: I disagree. There is plenty of info to be gained from a lynch at this point.
Re: TheMunch's #1442: I believe a Grujah lynch can be informative. People have stated reasons for finding Grujah scummy. I have stated reasons, so why would you find it odd? You're contradicting yourself.
Re: Morgrim's #1445: Why M3? Did we ever no-lynch in that game? If we did, it was in a MYLO situation and no-lynch was the right move. Town won that game, dude.
Re: jo's #1453: "that wagon sure is picking up speed" can be said for any wagon on anyone. If we make it whenever any wagon gets traction, we will never lynch.
Re: sparky's #1454: What? Personal pronouns are scummy? Being helpful is scummy? People can be helpful whatever alignment they are -- consider me in MIII, where I compiled giant vote counts and such. Being quiet is scummy? Reiterating is scummy? I do not understand you.
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Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
PS I find it interesting that ehalc mentioned that if people just vote for someone to get them to die, we gain no information because everyone has an excuse. Yet ehalc is voting for grujah. I know he voiced different reasons for doing so but I just find it interesting.
Quoting this to discuss it in greater detail.
I want to point out that this is largely a post AGAINST lynching lurkers.
Also, the person who said "he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on" is yuma, who has already clarified his position that he does find Grujah scummy. So I don't know what the issue is.
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Re: jo's #1453: "that wagon sure is picking up speed" can be said for any wagon on anyone. If we make it whenever any wagon gets traction, we will never lynch.
It was not a criticism of the wagon. merely an observation. I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie.
Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome.
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this may be the point where grujah should claim if he's some important town role that absolutely shouldn't die, because I don't see any other viable wagon forming before tomorrow when the soft deadline is. Though maybe he won't, I remember in MIX he was against the end-of-day claim meta. He should at least claim his card.
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Re: jo's #1453: "that wagon sure is picking up speed" can be said for any wagon on anyone. If we make it whenever any wagon gets traction, we will never lynch.
It was not a criticism of the wagon. merely an observation. I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie.
Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome.
So which lynch would you support, and why?
Speaking of which, I still don't think you've given reasons for your initial 3 picks. Unless I missed it. And there was someone else who named three names without giving reasons.
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It was Voltaire.
And I wonder if I missed anyone else.
Also, jo, maybe you should elaborate on why you think Morgrim is a good lynch. I don't see it, and as others have said -- you should know better.
Re: "we'll know scum-Morgrim when he appears" -- maybe I give the guy too much credit, but I think he could very easily pull one over on us. His meta is not exactly difficult to fake.
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I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.
All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.
eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.
ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.
Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.
Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.
If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?
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Re: "we'll know scum-Morgrim when he appears" -- maybe I give the guy too much credit, but I think he could very easily pull one over on us. His meta is not exactly difficult to fake.
Well, but that meta always gets him lynched anyway, despite me defending him. I doubt he'd play scum in the way that always gets him lynched. I'll worry about him pulling one over us when he gets through a game, playing like crazy morg, without getting lynched or vigged by a townie. At the moment, that's just something that doesn't happen, as far as I know. Or at least it hasn't in my games.
He can survive better, like when he was vig in MIX. There he got to the endgame. But he survived by playing more "normally". If he were scum trying that, he'd end up with scumtells from trying to play normally and being scum.
Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.
If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?
OK, if I really had no idea, then Morg. But I don't see the nonstandardness/Morgscumtell that you're seeing.
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the Watno-Munch fight is on 40 and 41, but on the reread I'm not that into the Watno case anymore.
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Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
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I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.
All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.
eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.
ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.
Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.
Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.
If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?
Can't really defend against "lots of little scumreads" without examples. But OK.
I don't think ehunt was being controlling. He was opinionated and lecture-y. Meh.
Watno -- uhh... OK...
Morgrim -- he wasn't standard from the start, in that he sounded more coherent, and I mentioned it early in the game. Apparently he was like that in MIX too (or some other game). But he's still Mogrim-ish overall, and thus unreadable IMO. Seriously, can you elaborate on what scumread you have? You are being super ambiguous about it.
If I had no idea who was scum, it would depend on the other players. If neither player looked scummy to me but some people had made cases on both, I would rather lynch Grujah -- more info. To be clear, this is predicated on me hypothetically being forced to choose between two players without a read on either. If there was absolutely nothing else to go on, then yeah, Morgrim, simply because he is far less helpful that Grujah could be.
But real games don't occur in a vacuum, so that scenario does not come up.
Grujah has been just about as helpful as Morgrim, which is to say not helpful at all. He has since given an excuse, and that's fair, but it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have spoken up earlier that he would have spotty internet and not much time. That is something I would expect town-Gruj to do. I can imagine scum-Gruj in the same scenario willing to remain silent while others argue with each other.
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Re: "we'll know scum-Morgrim when he appears" -- maybe I give the guy too much credit, but I think he could very easily pull one over on us. His meta is not exactly difficult to fake.
Well, but that meta always gets him lynched anyway, despite me defending him. I doubt he'd play scum in the way that always gets him lynched. I'll worry about him pulling one over us when he gets through a game, playing like crazy morg, without getting lynched or vigged by a townie. At the moment, that's just something that doesn't happen, as far as I know. Or at least it hasn't in my games.
He can survive better, like when he was vig in MIX. There he got to the endgame. But he survived by playing more "normally". If he were scum trying that, he'd end up with scumtells from trying to play normally and being scum.
How do you define "normally"? Morgrim has been coherent in this game.
Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch? Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.
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I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.
All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.
eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.
ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.
Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.
Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.
If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?
Can't really defend against "lots of little scumreads" without examples. But OK.
I don't think ehunt was being controlling. He was opinionated and lecture-y. Meh.
Watno -- uhh... OK...
Morgrim -- he wasn't standard from the start, in that he sounded more coherent, and I mentioned it early in the game. Apparently he was like that in MIX too (or some other game). But he's still Mogrim-ish overall, and thus unreadable IMO. Seriously, can you elaborate on what scumread you have? You are being super ambiguous about it.
If I had no idea who was scum, it would depend on the other players. If neither player looked scummy to me but some people had made cases on both, I would rather lynch Grujah -- more info. To be clear, this is predicated on me hypothetically being forced to choose between two players without a read on either. If there was absolutely nothing else to go on, then yeah, Morgrim, simply because he is far less helpful that Grujah could be.
But real games don't occur in a vacuum, so that scenario does not come up.
Grujah has been just about as helpful as Morgrim, which is to say not helpful at all. He has since given an excuse, and that's fair, but it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have spoken up earlier that he would have spotty internet and not much time. That is something I would expect town-Gruj to do. I can imagine scum-Gruj in the same scenario willing to remain silent while others argue with each other.
You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.
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You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.
I didn't say it was good scumplay. Grujah did come back though, right when heat picked up on him. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that earlier. He didn't speak up until he had picked up several votes.
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Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch? Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.
He fits the profile because he's done something that nobody likes. In some games, it's a scumslip or mistaken phrasing, in some games it's lying, in this game it's being almost totally silent. It's the kind of thing that scum isn't going to do day one because it's just a mistake they just don't need to make, and they'll monitor their posts more closely to make sure they don't.
He's done something that's really indefensible, which gives everyone on the wagon the excuse to say, "Well he did X, so lynching him seemed like the right choice!" And what do you say to that? It's the kind of thing scum just doesn't (or hasn't) done Day 1 precisely because it's the kind of thing that gets people lynched.
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You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.
I didn't say it was good scumplay. Grujah did come back though, right when heat picked up on him. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that earlier. He didn't speak up until he had picked up several votes.
But my point is, don't you think scum Grujah would have responded sooner? Because it's way too dangerous to let a wagon form on you this late in the day as scum, and pretty much everyone has said something at some point about him lurking too much.
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He's done something that's really indefensible, which gives everyone on the wagon the excuse to say, "Well he did X, so lynching him seemed like the right choice!" And what do you say to that? It's the kind of thing scum just doesn't do Day 1 precisely because it's the kind of thing that gets people lynched.
Ack I fixed my wording in the last sentence above.
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I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.
All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.
eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.
ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.
Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.
Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.
If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?
Can't really defend against "lots of little scumreads" without examples. But OK.
I don't think ehunt was being controlling. He was opinionated and lecture-y. Meh.
Watno -- uhh... OK...
Morgrim -- he wasn't standard from the start, in that he sounded more coherent, and I mentioned it early in the game. Apparently he was like that in MIX too (or some other game). But he's still Mogrim-ish overall, and thus unreadable IMO. Seriously, can you elaborate on what scumread you have? You are being super ambiguous about it.
If I had no idea who was scum, it would depend on the other players. If neither player looked scummy to me but some people had made cases on both, I would rather lynch Grujah -- more info. To be clear, this is predicated on me hypothetically being forced to choose between two players without a read on either. If there was absolutely nothing else to go on, then yeah, Morgrim, simply because he is far less helpful that Grujah could be.
But real games don't occur in a vacuum, so that scenario does not come up.
Grujah has been just about as helpful as Morgrim, which is to say not helpful at all. He has since given an excuse, and that's fair, but it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have spoken up earlier that he would have spotty internet and not much time. That is something I would expect town-Gruj to do. I can imagine scum-Gruj in the same scenario willing to remain silent while others argue with each other.
You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.
He posted at one point on the 19th, then didn't post for two days until the 21st. What made him post? I voted for him. Know how long it took him to respond? 3 posts.
He went MIA after that too. Had just two votes on him in a town where everything was spread around and 2 votes could hardly be seen as a threat. He didn't post for 3 days. What made him post? Yuma voted for him putting him at 3 votes. Know how long it took him to respond? 3 posts.
So yes, actually, he has done exactly what you claim he would do as scum.
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I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.
All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.
eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.
ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.
Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.
Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.
If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?
Can't really defend against "lots of little scumreads" without examples. But OK.
I don't think ehunt was being controlling. He was opinionated and lecture-y. Meh.
Watno -- uhh... OK...
Morgrim -- he wasn't standard from the start, in that he sounded more coherent, and I mentioned it early in the game. Apparently he was like that in MIX too (or some other game). But he's still Mogrim-ish overall, and thus unreadable IMO. Seriously, can you elaborate on what scumread you have? You are being super ambiguous about it.
If I had no idea who was scum, it would depend on the other players. If neither player looked scummy to me but some people had made cases on both, I would rather lynch Grujah -- more info. To be clear, this is predicated on me hypothetically being forced to choose between two players without a read on either. If there was absolutely nothing else to go on, then yeah, Morgrim, simply because he is far less helpful that Grujah could be.
But real games don't occur in a vacuum, so that scenario does not come up.
Grujah has been just about as helpful as Morgrim, which is to say not helpful at all. He has since given an excuse, and that's fair, but it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have spoken up earlier that he would have spotty internet and not much time. That is something I would expect town-Gruj to do. I can imagine scum-Gruj in the same scenario willing to remain silent while others argue with each other.
You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.
He posted at one point on the 19th, then didn't post for two days until the 21st. What made him post? I voted for him. Know how long it took him to respond? 3 posts.
He went MIA after that too. Had just two votes on him in a town where everything was spread around and 2 votes could hardly be seen as a threat. He didn't post for 3 days. What made him post? Yuma voted for him putting him at 3 votes. Know how long it took him to respond? 3 posts.
So yes, actually, he has done exactly what you claim he would do as scum.
K I need to reread.
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Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch? Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.
He fits the profile because he's done something that nobody likes. In some games, it's a scumslip or mistaken phrasing, in some games it's lying, in this game it's being almost totally silent. It's the kind of thing that scum isn't going to do day one because it's just a mistake they just don't need to make, and they'll monitor their posts more closely to make sure they don't.
He's done something that's really indefensible, which gives everyone on the wagon the excuse to say, "Well he did X, so lynching him seemed like the right choice!" And what do you say to that? It's the kind of thing scum just doesn't (or hasn't) done Day 1 precisely because it's the kind of thing that gets people lynched.
So you're arguing that it's OK to be totally silent? That it's OK to lie?
If we don't lynch based on things that seem scummy, what do we lynch on? "Well he did X" is ALWAYS an available excuse. Should we never lynch then, since any valid reason for lynching also becomes an excuse if the lynchee flips town?
IMO, "he did X" is a good reason for people to vote for someone. It requires taking a stance. "Voting for him will give us info on others" is a way to avoid taking a stance, and a way to avoid any fallout if it's a mislynch, which is far better for scum. It's different from voting "because he did X".
My profile for "usual day 1 lynch" is "player who fudges some wording, which is subsequently exaggerated as a scumslip". Grujah hasn't done that.
PPE: I didn't realize that he had done that twice -- just saw it the most recent time. Looks even better to me now.
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Vote: Grujah . I didn't realize that about the timing of his posts, that's pretty bad.
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Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch? Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.
He fits the profile because he's done something that nobody likes. In some games, it's a scumslip or mistaken phrasing, in some games it's lying, in this game it's being almost totally silent. It's the kind of thing that scum isn't going to do day one because it's just a mistake they just don't need to make, and they'll monitor their posts more closely to make sure they don't.
He's done something that's really indefensible, which gives everyone on the wagon the excuse to say, "Well he did X, so lynching him seemed like the right choice!" And what do you say to that? It's the kind of thing scum just doesn't (or hasn't) done Day 1 precisely because it's the kind of thing that gets people lynched.
So you're arguing that it's OK to be totally silent? That it's OK to lie?
If we don't lynch based on things that seem scummy, what do we lynch on? "Well he did X" is ALWAYS an available excuse. Should we never lynch then, since any valid reason for lynching also becomes an excuse if the lynchee flips town?
IMO, "he did X" is a good reason for people to vote for someone. It requires taking a stance. "Voting for him will give us info on others" is a way to avoid taking a stance, and a way to avoid any fallout if it's a mislynch, which is far better for scum. It's different from voting "because he did X".
My profile for "usual day 1 lynch" is "player who fudges some wording, which is subsequently exaggerated as a scumslip". Grujah hasn't done that.
PPE: I didn't realize that he had done that twice -- just saw it the most recent time. Looks even better to me now.
Well, it just comes down to whether we want to punish bad behavior or if we want to lynch the mafia. One is better for the meta, one is better for town in the current game. And actually, I'm not totally sure what the right answer is. Maybe it IS ok to use the Day 1 lynch to punish people for anti-town behavior. All I'm saying is that it hasn't worked in the past, which leads me to believe that he may not be our best choice for lynching scum today. I believe that our best chance for lynching scum requires an eye for much more subtle play. Still rereading though, those timings are indeed interesting to me.
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It actually took Grujah 7 posts to respond to Yuma's vote with an OMGUS vote after having been absent 3 days (the 22nd - 25th). It was 3 posts to respond to me after a 2 day absence however (19th - 21st). I made the mistake of unvoting right away at that time, and he almost immediately disappeared again.
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Well, it just comes down to whether we want to punish bad behavior or if we want to lynch the mafia. One is better for the meta, one is better for town in the current game. And actually, I'm not totally sure what the right answer is. Maybe it IS ok to use the Day 1 lynch to punish people for anti-town behavior. All I'm saying is that it hasn't worked in the past, which leads me to believe that he may not be our best choice for lynching scum today. I believe that our best chance for lynching scum requires an eye for much more subtle play. Still rereading though, those timings are indeed interesting to me.
"Subtle" is a fuzzy line though, and I think it walks dangerously close to lynching someone for good town play. The thing about this -- if it's subtle, you probably won't catch it. And if you do catch it, was it really all that subtle?
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Well, it just comes down to whether we want to punish bad behavior or if we want to lynch the mafia. One is better for the meta, one is better for town in the current game. And actually, I'm not totally sure what the right answer is. Maybe it IS ok to use the Day 1 lynch to punish people for anti-town behavior. All I'm saying is that it hasn't worked in the past, which leads me to believe that he may not be our best choice for lynching scum today. I believe that our best chance for lynching scum requires an eye for much more subtle play. Still rereading though, those timings are indeed interesting to me.
"Subtle" is a fuzzy line though, and I think it walks dangerously close to lynching someone for good town play. The thing about this -- if it's subtle, you probably won't catch it. And if you do catch it, was it really all that subtle?
I mean, yeah. This is basically true. There's no sure way of catching scum, of course. But it's beginning to look to me like our typical way of doing things on day 1 is a sure way to not catch scum. The fact that we almost got ftl in BMV gives me hope that it can be done, though.
And I see what you mean about the fuzzy line. I don't want to lynch townGalz, he's a huge asset for the town. But there are other good players too, and scumGalz is extremely dangerous to the town. Essentially, I'd rather lynch Morgrim because I think he's less likely to be a huge loss to the town (no offense morg!), but I think that he's also a bit less likely to turn up scum. So it's just a matter of what you pursue in a day 1 lynch.
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OK, Galz has got me convinced too. Vote: Grujah. That's L-2, buddy.
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Alright, after a reread of his posts, I'm warming up to a Grujah lynch. I'm going to leave my vote on Morgrim until tomorrow, though, to foster discussion and make sure that Grujah isn't hammered before we can discuss everything.
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Intent to hammer Grujah. Claim buddy.
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Intent to hammer Grujah. Claim buddy.
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Essentially, I'd rather lynch Morgrim because I think he's less likely to be a huge loss to the town (no offense morg!), but I think that he's also a bit less likely to turn up scum. So it's just a matter of what you pursue in a day 1 lynch.
Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum.
?
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Essentially, I'd rather lynch Morgrim because I think he's less likely to be a huge loss to the town (no offense morg!), but I think that he's also a bit less likely to turn up scum. So it's just a matter of what you pursue in a day 1 lynch.
Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum.
?
First quote: Morgrim is less of a loss to the town than Galz (assuming they're both town). However, I believe that Galz is more likely scum.
Second quote: I think Morgrim is more likely scum than Grujah (not sure I still stand by that after the reread, though).
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OK then.
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Intent to hammer Grujah. Claim buddy.
Not going to claim, PR nor VT. As I said multiple times in prior games, I only support claims claim that are in interest of the town, in one way or other (Mostly with ability to prove something, yourself or an other guy), and forced claims I find the worst. Here, I see no use except creating a "do I believe him or not" situation, which leads to nothing.
If I hypothetically had powers, only thing I could prove is that I had those powers (by applying them, rolecop or whatever) - which I don't see how it says anything about my alignment - especially as I would be forced to use those powers in a towny way/how town orders me to.
So no, no claim for you.
I did bredcrumb my role as always, through a bit sloppy and with an error, so if you really wanna know go on and analyze my early posts.
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Also, I'm not you buddy, guy.
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Can I hammer? Can I hammer? Pleeeeaaaaaassse!
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I don't mind a hammer. I also don't have my vote on Gruj just to be a part of the lynch.
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Yaaaay!
Vote: Grujah
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Town JoaT, btw.
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Town JoaT, btw.
Excellent job not claiming.
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People seem to think it's somehow the wagon's fault if they get lynched as town. NO IT'S NOT! "See I was right and you were wrong" is not what should go on after you get lynched as a townie, NO. I find Grujah's horrible defense very anti-town and this line of thinking has to stop. The worst thing you can do as town day1 is getting yourself lynched, even more so if you are a power role. Boo Grujah boo!
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You guys didn't lynch me? ???
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Not gona forceclaim ever. Would be lynched anyway.
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Had fullcop, fulldoc, redirect. Also goes with my meta of screwing 1shots
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Boo Grujah boo!
You would *not* have gotten lynched. It's an easy enough role to verify. At worst you would have drawn the night kill.
I think there's a good chance you're just trolling us at the moment though.
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Grujah - do you have any pro town advice to give us before RobZ locks us out?
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Boo Grujah boo!
You would *not* have gotten lynched. It's an easy enough role to verify. At worst you would have drawn the night kill.
I think there's a good chance you're just trolling us at the moment though.
I agree with this 100%. Grujah not helping us with any reads now makes it more likely he is just trolling us though.
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THREAD LOCKED
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Vote Count 1.25
Grujah (13) -- Glooble, ehunt, yuma, watno, Galzria, eHalcyon, Cuzz, Eevee, Morgrim7, ftl, jotheonah, Axxle
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (3) -- shraeye, sparky5856, Dsell
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
O (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (1) -- O
You'd had quite enough of drinking and talking. Well, of talking at least. Such a long day! To sit in the courtyard and watch the sun sink beneath the clouds was a welcome thing. And finally, the rabble had chosen: Grujah. You seized him, desperately demanding, "Where is Robz? What have you done with him?"
"I locked him in that room, right there!" admitted Grujah, before he was carted off to the dungeons. And sure enough, when the door to the broom closet was opened, Robz emerged.
"Wow," said Robz. "Well that was a freebie."
Grujah, the Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-all-Trades has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you also learned his Description, which is as follows: Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!
Please submit night actions by Sunday evening. Day 2 will begin on Monday, October 1st, at 1:00 PM EDT.
Edit: Wrong month, now fixed.
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[flavor]Having thwarted Grujah's nefarious plans, the party became merry once again, and everyone went to bed with a smile on their faces. But some never awoke. Worse still, the person everyone thought was Robz took off his mask--Alas! A particularly clever mimic was revealed. The real Robz was still in the hands of scum...[/flavor]
Eevee, the Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, has been killed.
Glooble, the Town-aligned Masonic Couple, has been killed.
O, the Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, has been killed.
A Dominion Card was also found: a Coppersmith. It must have been left behind by one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah
9. Young Nick
10. Voltaire
11. Axxle
12. O, Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. ibgtennis
18. TheMunch
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon
21. Watno
22. Galzria
23. Captain_Frisk
24. ehunt
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
THREAD UNLOCKED EARLY -- DAY 2 START
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Well, this is exciting. My best guess is two NKs, one on Eevee and one on either O or Glooble. Any number of other evening events could have happened.
No clue what to make of the Coppersmith.
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Couple = lovers here? When one of them died, the other did too?
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Couple = lovers here? When one of them died, the other did too?
Either that or three individual night kills and crazy odds that both masons were killed...
If they are "lovers" I am a little annoyed with Robz for using "couples" instead... Couples don't have a page on scum wiki and isn't an acronym listed there for lovers.
On the other hand, major props to us for lynching scum Day 1!
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Vote: ashersky for proposing no lynch as the Grujah wagon began to take off.
Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
WE LYNCHED SCUM D1 WOOOOOOOO!
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I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
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I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
If there is you and ftl would be at the top of my list... but that needs to be further analyzed.
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I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
If there is you and ftl would be at the top of my list... but that needs to be further analyzed.
That makes sense. Man, I know the next step is to re-read, but there is so. much. thread. :(
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Grujah's team probably killed Glooble, actually. There was so much 1v1 between the two of them that he would have been a pretty clear town read today. So that makes Eevee the SK or Werewolf or vig. kill, I guess.
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lol
what's "semi-naive"
i think that descriptor implies multiple scum teams, one of which eevee couldn't detect.
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Couple = lovers here? When one of them died, the other did too?
Either that or three individual night kills and crazy odds that both masons were killed...
If they are "lovers" I am a little annoyed with Robz for using "couples" instead... Couples don't have a page on scum wiki and isn't an acronym listed there for lovers.
On the other hand, major props to us for lynching scum Day 1!
I suppose I should confirm this, since I mentioned that the listed roles was 99% exhaustive. When I play mafia IRL, Couple was always what we called the Lovers. So yes, Couple = Lover.
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Actually, I need to go to sleep, but last thought: Do you guys think Gru's scumbuddies could have been trying to push the Morgrim wagon?
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I'm just gonna look so scummy today because I tried to derail the Grujah wagon and pushed the Morgrim one some. All I can say is that I picked the wrong time to start questioning "the system" because the system finally worked for us.
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I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
If there is you and ftl would be at the top of my list... but that needs to be further analyzed.
Joth and ftl were already near the top of my list; i'm not sure about bussing or not, but eevee's role seems to me (and cayvie i guess) to mean that there are multiple scum teams. It absurd for joth to jump out and say "hey guys, definitely no scum on grujah's wagon because that didn't feel like bussing, let's look off-wagon". Yes indeed, look off wagon and completely forget that there could be a whole heap of non-mafia scum on grujah's wagon.
PPE: Cool, and you just gave us our first lead into which off-wagon voters to check, thanks director. Funny that one of the Morgrim-pushers happens to think you're scum. (Protip: that's me)
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when I say "you" above in the PPE, I'm talking to scum-central joth.
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Also
Vote: jotheonah
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I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
If there is you and ftl would be at the top of my list... but that needs to be further analyzed.
Joth and ftl were already near the top of my list; i'm not sure about bussing or not, but eevee's role seems to me (and cayvie i guess) to mean that there are multiple scum teams. It absurd for joth to jump out and say "hey guys, definitely no scum on grujah's wagon because that didn't feel like bussing, let's look off-wagon". Yes indeed, look off wagon and completely forget that there could be a whole heap of non-mafia scum on grujah's wagon.
PPE: Cool, and you just gave us our first lead into which off-wagon voters to check, thanks director. Funny that one of the Morgrim-pushers happens to think you're scum. (Protip: that's me)
For another nearly antagonizing post, this actually makes a lot of sense. Seems very sketchy to immediately have everyone not look in depth at the wagon. I dont know if I necessarily think there is something awesome to be pulled from it either, however, that doesn't mean you should immediately tell everyone to "not look at the man behind the curtain" while giving no evidence to why. Vote: Jotheonah
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I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
If there is you and ftl would be at the top of my list... but that needs to be further analyzed.
Joth and ftl were already near the top of my list; i'm not sure about bussing or not, but eevee's role seems to me (and cayvie i guess) to mean that there are multiple scum teams. It absurd for joth to jump out and say "hey guys, definitely no scum on grujah's wagon because that didn't feel like bussing, let's look off-wagon". Yes indeed, look off wagon and completely forget that there could be a whole heap of non-mafia scum on grujah's wagon.
PPE: Cool, and you just gave us our first lead into which off-wagon voters to check, thanks director. Funny that one of the Morgrim-pushers happens to think you're scum. (Protip: that's me)
How did you get "definitely" out of "probably"?
Also side note I still need to read like half the thread >_<
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Vote: ashersky for proposing no lynch as the Grujah wagon began to take off.
Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
WE LYNCHED SCUM D1 WOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, saw this coming once Grujah flipped. I will note that I was voting for a lynch, not "no-lynch" at day's end, so it wasn't like I was really pushing for it. I preferred lynching, and especially mafia! I've been in both games with D1 scum lynches now. Oh yeah!
I agree that joth trying to steer everyone away from the wagon is ultra-scummy, and will vote: joth as well. Especially since, of course, he was on the wagon, so it's a deflect away from himself.
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Alright, now that I know I'm alive, time to take the time to traipse through this thread. (Ten (...eleven?) Words beginning with "T" in a row. Impressive.).
The people voting for Joth right now however are being ridiculous. What he said is spot on. It makes so much more sense to look at Grujah's associations - off the wagon particularly - first. I won't go so far as to call you all scummy for your votes on him, but seriously - don't get cocky over our successful lynch of Grujah. It took time and effort to pick him our, and in particular it did NOT take opportunistic or hasty play. So cool your jets.
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Yeah the fact that there are three votes on him is just silly.
Obviously he was a bit facetious with his comments, but cut him some slack.
Also, I think Glooble was targeted and O was the lover-death. I say this because Glooble was listed before O was. Then again, the three kills were all down alphabetically, so that could be how Robz intended to order it. It may not be much to go on, but it is something.
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Yeah the fact that there are three votes on him is just silly.
Obviously he was a bit facetious with his comments, but cut him some slack.
Also, I think Glooble was targeted and O was the lover-death. I say this because Glooble was listed before O was. Then again, the three kills were all down alphabetically, so that could be how Robz intended to order it. It may not be much to go on, but it is something.
The kills were indeed listed alphabetically.
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Notice how the sly Robz doesn't mention whether that was intentional or not. Yeah, Robz, we knew they were alphabetical, I just pointed it out, duh.
(I think it's pretty clear that he meant that it was intentional to list kills in alphabetical, but hooray for being pedantic.)
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Notice how the sly Robz doesn't mention whether that was intentional or not. Yeah, Robz, we knew they were alphabetical, I just pointed it out, duh.
(I think it's pretty clear that he meant that it was intentional to list kills in alphabetical, but hooray for being pedantic.)
I promise I'm not being tricky. I deliberately listed the kills in alphabetical order. There is no info to be gained from an analysis of the order.
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It seems to me that O was killed by a vig. We were calling people like him a vig target.
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Vote Count 2.1
ashersky (1) -- Cuzz
jotheonah (3) -- shraeye, TheMunch, ashersky
Not Voting (17) -- Ftl, sparky5856, Insomniac, Dsell, Jotheonah, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, Cayvie, Yuma, ibgtennis, Morgrim7, EHalcyon, Watno, Galzria, Captain_Frisk, ehunt
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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It seems to me that O was killed by a vig. We were calling people like him a vig target.
we were?
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It seems to me that O was killed by a vig. We were calling people like him a vig target.
we were?
I sure hope not.
I'm kind of afraid I got O killed with sloppy play, actually.
The reason I unvoted O awkwardly yesterday was because I thought I saw an O-style power role breadcrumb. Of course, as soon as I unvoted, I realized I was just drawing more attention toward O, which was absolutely not what I wanted to do. At that point I was in a bind; I couldn't explain myself without outing a potential power role, but I couldn't not explain myself without looking hella scummy.
Sorry if I got you killed, O!
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I definitely think O was the vig kill and that the jo wagon is ridiculous.
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He must really not like you then, uh? What else do you know?
I know you all aren't going to end up lynching me, and this lurker-hunt has done nothing but spawn several contentless pages.
This is the post I took as a breadcrumb.
I really think a scum team of some sort noticed it too, possibly alerted by my clumsiness, and killed him last night.
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The night was so long I have seriously forgotten the day.
Will re-read later. I agree with jo that looking off-wagon is better, and I find the people who immediately jumped on him for that statement to be rather scummy for it. sparky looks a little more townie to me from #1524.
I still get bad vibes from Munch, and his jumping on jo just makes it worse. For someone so concerned on day 1 about lynching for info, his treatment of the info we have seems odd. The wagon is a clear partition; why would you NOT give townie points to people who successfully lynched scum? And, to my recollection, that was in the face of a good amount of doubt from some people (and these people definitely need to be looked into).
Some bad vibes from shraeye as well. I remember having some misgivings about him early day 1, though they faded away over time. They're back again though. As sparky points out, shraeye is very much misrepresenting jo. His post #1512 does not at all say "definitely no scum on the wagon". He explicitly notes that "not all are clear". It's weird how he jumps at the possibility of "a whole heap of non-mafia scum" -- scum is scum, town doesn't care whether they are mafia or otherwise, and those on the wagon absolutely have more town cred than those who were not. Finally, shraeye's concern over being a Morgrim-pusher smells fishy, like panicked scum.
Not sure how I feel about ashersky as the third quick vote on jo. I don't remember having bad vibes from him on day 1, but I may have simply forgotten it.
All that said, I kind of recall jo himself jumping on the Morgrim wagon. Definitely need to re-read.
Re: Axxle's 1531, I don't see how we ever called O a good vig-target. Morgrim was the one.
I think more likely is that Glooble was shot, either by a vig or by scum trying to hit other scum. Gloob was a lurker, after all.
I don't think there is any evidence of multiple scum teams right now. It looks like there were two shots fired (since O and Gloob are connected), and the second death could be vig or SK, not necessarily another team.
Conspiracy theory would be that there were indeed more shots, and that two (or more) landed on Glooble and O. O was one-shot doc; in his position, I would definitely have used that power on Glooble. Given his lurking (and notorious reputation as scum in previous games), he would absolutely be an attractive target for vig or scumhunting scum.
I don't think Coppersmith matters much. Will speculate briefly though. Conspiracy theories and such. There are four bodies but only one card, so where did the other three cards go? Well, since Glooble and O were lovers, I would guess that Coppersmith belonged to one of them. The other cards were perhaps collected by their killers; Grujah's might have gone to the hammer.
Or alternatively, Grujah was the only one not killed during the night, so he was Coppersmith?
Anyway, we have info now and we should use it. The current case on jo is garbage. Examination of day 1 interaction and wagons is where it's at.
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I dont remember anyone calling out O, but we did say that lurkers were a great target i think
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I think Glooble was a scum-kill and O's death was from the lover effect. Eevee I think could be a vig-kill but is more likely a kill by a second scum-faction. Certainly if the recruiting faction of which eevee warned has a kill (which seems imba) then they killed eevee.
Glooble was the player whom I thought was town for role-related reasons yesterday*. That's why I sheeped his Grujah-read (and his O read, which makes a whole lot more sense now). I was trying to be subtle about it, but it's possible that scum noticed that my reasoning for voting Grujah was thinly articulated and deduced that it was related to my role-posting earlier. Even if the kill has nothing to do with roles, Glooble is still a decent choice for a scum-kill since he was first on the Grujah wagon.
*If I was wrong about that, or if somebody else has obtained "the item," please don't give it to me . If someone gives me the item, the item will leave the game permanently, so I will assume anyone giving me the item is scum, since the item is town-oriented.
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I think I was pretty clear why Joth gave me a bad vibe. Its not exactly that he wanted to look off wagon; like I said, I might want to as well. However, to that quickly go out and say it without any supporting evidence is a little scummy to me. Granted it has been a long night, he could have been developing these ideas in his brain for a while and it just gets vomited out because he thinks its obvious after all the time spent thinking about it. I dont know, but if he were to have just at least given a little more of a reason why before directing everyone I'd be cool.
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I mean, I'm all for conflicting opinions. I specifically said the wagon wasn't clear. You all are free to direct your hunting however you want, and to let me know why you think scum is on the wagon.
Here's my reasoning: In a very large town, getting close to deadline, why bus when there's a chance we could hit no lynch? But now that I think about it, that was a bit premature. If I were scum and saw 11 or 12 votes I might read the writing on the wall and hop on the Gru wagon. I do think the people who really pushed it into viable territory, Galz for instance, look pretty clear. And I do suspect the Morg wagon a little more than everyone else.
I wish I had more time for this game today, unfortunately I have a job interview. I'll check in later this afternoon.
But man guys, there is so much content from yesterday, it seems like there ought to be a smoking gun.
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Yeah guys, I'm not sure why we're jumping on Joth here. Day 1 bussing isn't impossible (RobZ and I did it - STUPIDLY in ZM2), but with this many people, it probably makes sense to start with some manner of focus other than "lets look at all 20 people".
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vote asherersky
Not saying anything about nolynch in the beginning of the day, then when scum is about to get lyched suggest doing it, and when people say it's not a good idea, he says he doesn't want it. Cuzz has a point with what he says.
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First off, Watno, you don't have the proper format for that to be registered as a vote. You need the colon.
I understand where you guys are coming from, and it does look like he has been hedging, but when I read his NL push, I viewed it more as asking an open-ended question than pushing for NL.
We all flirt with the idea in our Mafia-infancy, so I don't see why he should be judged more harshly for this than anyone else is. I mean, in a 20+ game, most conventional wisdom has to be at least modified, and the always-lynch-d1 logic is no exception.
If anything, I think Watno's second-on-the-wagon is more suspicious than anything else. Not that ashersky did much to defend himself at the top of p. 62..
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p. 62..
Sigh....
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p. 62..
Sigh....
That's this current page, for those who view more posts per page. ;)
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p. 62..
Sigh....
That's this current page, for those who view more posts per page. ;)
Or even more specifically, Ashersky's most recent post.
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p. 62..
Sigh....
That's this current page, for those who view more posts per page. ;)
Thanks for reminding me I can do this. Just changed it to 10 posts per page to make each page less daunting... although that turns it to 155 pages!
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I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1. Especially when there's a town this big, we've got to have a whole bunch of them. Still, I would expect that there's more scum off the wagon than on it, so we should start by scumhunting there and then find the bussing mafia later.
Nightkills - mafia would kill someone from the wagon. Of the people who died, eevee and glooble were on the grujah wagon, O was not. I'd guess mafia kill either eevee or glooble; if O was targeted then that was probably a vig kill. So we probably have either two scumteams (well, maybe just mafia+sk) and no vig, or just mafia and vig. With this many potential targets, I would really doubt that we had kill-collision, so I think there's only 2 nightkills going around.
Weirdness with Eevee dying due to some interaction with the cult is also possible, I'd sort of assumed the recruiting faction doesn't get a nightkill.
Maybe the card is either Glooble or O's card, and the other one of them was Copper? That would fit, copper/coppersmith as lovers.
Looking back to D1 - out of the people who are still alive:
Were on the grujah wagon at the end: ehunt, yuma, watno, Galzria, eHalcyon, Cuzz, Morgrim7, ftl, jotheonah, Axxle
D1, grujah voted for: cayvie, yuma.
Had earlier voted for grujah but unvoted before the lynch: Dsell. ...and that's it, actually.
People who didn't have any voting interaction with Grujah: (Voltgloss)/sparky5856, Insomniac, Young Nick, Voltaire, Shraeye, igbtennis, TheMunch, Captain_Frisk, ashersky
I think the last two groups there should be our most likely suspects. So Dsell, volt/sparky, insom, YN, Voltaire, shraeye, igb, Munch, C_F, ash.
Ima go back and see whether any of these people seemed wagon-happy until the wagon got to Grujah.
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I'm kind of curious whether people count me as being on the Grujah wagon or not.
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I'd say you count, since grujah voted for you and since you listed him as primary before the soft deadline I think.
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I'm kind of curious whether people count me as being on the Grujah wagon or not.
I consider you somewhere in the middle. You are unique! I understand that you have a stated reason for not voting, but do understand that this reason has not been proven to the rest of us. You aren't on the wagon, neither are you off the wagon. You are in limbo!
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OK, vote patterns of the people who didn't vote for Grujah
Insomniac: Voted for ibg and voltaire. Both pretty early.
Voltgloss/sparky: voltgloss votes for yuma and O and ibgtenns and ehalcyon ... and then replaces out before we get to find out whether his sequence of wagons would have touched gruj. Sparky replaces in and votes morgrim.
Young_Nick: misses the first week or so. Votes cayvie, axxle.
Voltaire: votes O, ibg, yuma, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, jotheonah.
shraeye: votes yuma, O (a lot), Morgrim,
igbtennis: votes ftl and ehunt
TheMunch: votes ashersky, ehunt, glooble, O, yuma, captain_frisk, eHalcyon, watno
Captain_Frisk: votes theMunch, shraeye, O,
ashersky: votes Robz, Galz, shraeye, O, yuma, Frisk, insom,
Dsell: votes joth, morgrim, axxle, galzria
FoS at the people who seemed to be on a whole bunch of wagons, but managed to never vote Grujah. That would be munch, ashersky, voltaire.
I should really reread some of those people's posts instead of skimming for votes but man, there's just so many. I'll reread Munch first, I think.
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dangit it's later than I thought I won't have time to do a munch reread until later tonight
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Alright people, help me out:
Yesterday I had an item: I bore the Cup of Wine in front of Robz. The Cup works as follows:
At some point during the day, I had to PM Robz the name of a player with whom I wished to share the Wine. Failure to do so resulted in Modkill. During the night, that player and I would each be given the choice to drink from the cup - or not.
If we both made the same choice, our Role Descriptions would be shared with one another. If we choose differently, nothing would happen. Regardless of our choices, the Cup would be passed into the possession of the other person.
I'm not yet going to reveal whom I choose, but my concern is thus: If it gets passed, in the future, into the hands of scum, they can simply pass it amongst themselves and never risk revealing their description to a townie. Obviously it's in our best interest then to force the issue, so that if a player who once held it ever flips scum, we can trace it to the people associated with him (who he gave it to, who gave it to him etc).
But I'm not sure the best way to go about this. Making public where it is at any given time is all fine and dandy until it arrives in the hands of scum. See, the person to whom I presented was informed that it was I doing the presenting before he choose to drink. So if he were scum, he could've killed me and hidden the existence of the wine. In the future, the same dilemma may exist.
If we make the current owner at any given time announce their target before the day ends, it's good money the target will wake up dead, taking the cup to their grave - along with any information they may have. I'm revealing this today, instead of yesterday, in case there is some sort of day-kill power that didn't want the item in circulation (I actually doubt that role exists, but I wanted to be safe). It's for this reason that I'm not yet revealing who I gave the cup to.
However, I will say that the fact that I didn't die during the night, and the fact that the recipient choose to drink the wine (I did not) both suggest that this player is town to me. The second reasoning is a little weaker than the first, but I didn't expect scum to drink the wine, in case it had "extra" effects.
Also in this query then is should we agree to a standard policy of drink/don't drink, and those breaking policy should be lynched?
How does everybody feel the best way to handle this is? It's a great investigative tool for town, but we need to (I think) keep track of it somehow to put it to maximum effect. Thoughts?
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Obviously [jotheonah] was a bit facetious with his comments, but cut him some slack.
Also, I think Glooble was targeted and O was the lover-death. I say this because Glooble was listed before O was. Then again, the three kills were all down alphabetically, so that could be how Robz intended to order it. It may not be much to go on, but it is something.
I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1. Especially when there's a town this big, we've got to have a whole bunch of them. Still, I would expect that there's more scum off the wagon than on it, so we should start by scumhunting there and then find the bussing mafia later.
Nightkills - mafia would kill someone from the wagon. Of the people who died, eevee and glooble were on the grujah wagon, O was not. I'd guess mafia kill either eevee or glooble; if O was targeted then that was probably a vig kill. So we probably have either two scumteams (well, maybe just mafia+sk) and no vig, or just mafia and vig. With this many potential targets, I would really doubt that we had kill-collision, so I think there's only 2 nightkills going around.
Cool, I came back from a hectic day at work wondering what responses another does of angry-shraeye would bring me. YoungNick and ftl, you have both managed to talk sense to me. The reason I change probably to definitely is because I don't recall joth talking much in extremes, and I virtually always talk in extremes. So joth's probably is my definitely, and his definitely would be my most-definitely. Despite him saying "probably" he really felt like he was trying very hard to direct attention away from the wagon. But ftl's argument is exactly what was going through my mind. I got angry that it felt like joth was trying to give the entire wagon a pass, which made no sense to me because as scum you couldn't let an obvious wagon on your partner be filled up with only town members. So I can agree with ftl's explanation that while bussing mafia (or competing factions, which I still think is a possibility) is a possibility, that there's probably more scum off the wagon than on it.
[1]I agree with jo that looking off-wagon is better, and I find the people who immediately jumped on him for that statement to be rather scummy for it. sparky looks a little more townie to me from #1524.
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[2]Some bad vibes from shraeye as well. I remember having some misgivings about him early day 1, though they faded away over time. They're back again though. As sparky points out, shraeye is very much misrepresenting jo. His post #1512 does not at all say "definitely no scum on the wagon". He explicitly notes that "not all are clear". It's weird how he jumps at the possibility of "a whole heap of non-mafia scum" -- scum is scum, town doesn't care whether they are mafia or otherwise, and those on the wagon absolutely have more town cred than those who were not. Finally, shraeye's concern over being a Morgrim-pusher smells fishy, like panicked scum.
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[3]Re: Axxle's 1531, I don't see how we ever called O a good vig-target. Morgrim was the one.
I think more likely is that Glooble was shot, either by a vig or by scum trying to hit other scum. Gloob was a lurker, after all.
...
[4]I don't think there is any evidence of multiple scum teams right now. It looks like there were two shots fired (since O and Gloob are connected), and the second death could be vig or SK, not necessarily another team.
[1]Here's a post which I feel like breaking down more. An argument that the case on joth is misguided just sounds really bad to me when it's worded like this. You can cast suspicion on me for my vote if you want, but this sounded initially to me like more of a warning to people who may be considering my argument as valid. A bit like "you better not vote for this unless you're sure, because I promise I'll find you scummy if you do." Before we end up in a 3-page long "mischaracterization" argument, I'm saying that's how it feels to me when I read something like that. No mischaracterization of my feelings at all, promise.
[2]love that this is the second time someone has said I looked panicked. Y'all flatter me; truth is, I've got no human emotions. (Protip: that's not the truth)
response [3] and [4] are going to be in my next post, so that people can read them solo, instead of tying them in with these other, less serious points.
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[3]Re: Axxle's 1531, I don't see how we ever called O a good vig-target. Morgrim was the one.
I think more likely is that Glooble was shot, either by a vig or by scum trying to hit other scum. Gloob was a lurker, after all.
...
[4]I don't think there is any evidence of multiple scum teams right now. It looks like there were two shots fired (since O and Gloob are connected), and the second death could be vig or SK, not necessarily another team.
[3] Like a few others (forget names, but I think ehunt and joth plus maybe others?) I agree that glooble was a more likely than an O kill. I'm not sure if whether this was a vig kill or not even changes that. Glooble was lurking even worse that O was, despite O being the at the center of the beginnings of our lurker argument. There were many town reads on O by the end of things, including a slight town read from me. I'm not sure as a vig that would have been a smart play. And as for the mafia kill, it is very likely that it was directed at someone on the grujah wagon, and O wasn't there.
[4]The evidence that I see is Eevee's "semi-naive" role. I think that it's likely that only two kills were successful and that O or Glooble died via their connection only. It is possible that all three deaths were natural instead of lover-related. Also powerrole-type protection may have randomly succeeded. But I think that it's very likely in a town this large for one scum faction to decide not to use a kill. I know that's not a common mafia tactic, but it certainly would confuse a town and send some of us looking in the wrong direction. Like if there had been 4 kills last night, we would be much more sure of multiple factions existing and would suspect scum on the grujah wagon who weren't even bussing (as I do). But if there's only a few kills, people suspect only one faction, and this will give most people on the wagon some serious points as town (but not free passes obviously). I suspect that the true number of factions will definitely be known by day 3, as it would be clever-beyond-the-point-of-strategic mafia play to not NK twice in a row.
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Oh and two other things.
unvote
and sorry Galz for quickly burying something which I only glanced at but seems super important. Everybody go read #1555.
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I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1.
I just want to point out, this argument is terrible.
If all the scum avoid the lynch wagon, that does not magically clear those on the wagon.
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I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1.
I just want to point out, this argument is terrible.
If all the scum avoid the lynch wagon, that does not magically clear those on the wagon.
Clearly ftl felt he had to bus his partner because he didn't want to clear half the town.
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Alright people, help me out:
Yesterday I had an item: I bore the Cup of Wine in front of Robz. The Cup works as follows:
At some point during the day, I had to PM Robz the name of a player with whom I wished to share the Wine. Failure to do so resulted in Modkill. During the night, that player and I would each be given the choice to drink from the cup - or not.
If we both made the same choice, our Role Descriptions would be shared with one another. If we choose differently, nothing would happen. Regardless of our choices, the Cup would be passed into the possession of the other person.
I'm not yet going to reveal whom I choose, but my concern is thus: If it gets passed, in the future, into the hands of scum, they can simply pass it amongst themselves and never risk revealing their description to a townie. Obviously it's in our best interest then to force the issue, so that if a player who once held it ever flips scum, we can trace it to the people associated with him (who he gave it to, who gave it to him etc).
But I'm not sure the best way to go about this. Making public where it is at any given time is all fine and dandy until it arrives in the hands of scum. See, the person to whom I presented was informed that it was I doing the presenting before he choose to drink. So if he were scum, he could've killed me and hidden the existence of the wine. In the future, the same dilemma may exist.
If we make the current owner at any given time announce their target before the day ends, it's good money the target will wake up dead, taking the cup to their grave - along with any information they may have. I'm revealing this today, instead of yesterday, in case there is some sort of day-kill power that didn't want the item in circulation (I actually doubt that role exists, but I wanted to be safe). It's for this reason that I'm not yet revealing who I gave the cup to.
However, I will say that the fact that I didn't die during the night, and the fact that the recipient choose to drink the wine (I did not) both suggest that this player is town to me. The second reasoning is a little weaker than the first, but I didn't expect scum to drink the wine, in case it had "extra" effects.
Also in this query then is should we agree to a standard policy of drink/don't drink, and those breaking policy should be lynched?
How does everybody feel the best way to handle this is? It's a great investigative tool for town, but we need to (I think) keep track of it somehow to put it to maximum effect. Thoughts?
This could be a really powerful tool for the town. Your ideas sound about it sound really good and, if you're telling the truth (and it would be a stupid thing to lie about), the fact that you're revealing this seems very pro-town.
Do you know if Robz put any conditions on it? For example, if we decide that we all will or won't drink, does the wine run out at some point?
I like the idea of announcing the target or having a standard way of choosing, but it seems like that could be disrupted by the mafia. If they know who is getting the WIFOM, wouldn't they just kill that person to make the wine leave forever?
So maybe it should be a secret? But I could see ways of maximizing its effectiveness. Such as, the person who currently has the wine announces that they have the wine, and they clear/incriminate themselves and the person who had it the night before, but do NOT announce their target. That gives incentive for the mafia to NOT kill the now-confirmed townies, but aim for the target of the wine. Who knows how long that would last until scum hit right or it goes into the hands of scum, but it could buy us some confirmed townies/a hit on scum. If they try to pass it amongst themselves, once we hit one, we hit them all (as long as they announce).
This is one of those things that seems like a clear choice, but I feel like the whole town (including the person who has the wine) should decide in case there's some pitfall I'm not seeing.
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.
I'll drink to that!
This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!
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I mean, I'm all for conflicting opinions. I specifically said the wagon wasn't clear. You all are free to direct your hunting however you want, and to let me know why you think scum is on the wagon.
Here's my reasoning: In a very large town, getting close to deadline, why bus when there's a chance we could hit no lynch? But now that I think about it, that was a bit premature. If I were scum and saw 11 or 12 votes I might read the writing on the wall and hop on the Gru wagon. I do think the people who really pushed it into viable territory, Galz for instance, look pretty clear. And I do suspect the Morg wagon a little more than everyone else.
I wish I had more time for this game today, unfortunately I have a job interview. I'll check in later this afternoon.
But man guys, there is so much content from yesterday, it seems like there ought to be a smoking gun.
This is sufficient enough to make me happy. Unvote. I'm not going to immediately give towncred to everyone on the wagon as I could be easily convinced of the multiple scum team argument (I like to account for all possibilities) at least for the sake thoroughness. However, I feel this is sufficient enough of a reason to argue for looking off wagon.
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.
I'll drink to that!
This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!
Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.
;)
@Dsell, it does not run out as far as I'm aware. Robz said he took me to the cellar and cracked a fresh cask of his finest - so it should flow plentiful.
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.
I'll drink to that!
This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!
Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.
;)
@Dsell, it does not run out as far as I'm aware. Robz said he took me to the cellar and cracked a fresh cask of his finest - so it should flow plentiful.
speaking of ehunt, I wonder if the wine was the object that he didn't want to get because it would go out of the game? Perhaps because he would drink all of it? If so.... good one Robz.
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Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.
;)
oh god damn it.
that's probably a real thing in this game.
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On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic. I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe. Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup? I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.
PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this. so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?
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speaking of ehunt, I wonder if the wine was the object that he didn't want to get because it would go out of the game? Perhaps because he would drink all of it? If so.... good one Robz.
Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.
;)
oh god damn it.
that's probably a real thing in this game.
Oh that's too funny! ;D
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On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic. I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe. Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup? I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.
PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this. so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?
In MVI, ehunt got drunk with his kickball team and posted several dozen times in a row. It was HILARIOUS and that's gotta be what Robz is referencing. He'll drink all the wine!
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On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic. I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe. Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup? I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.
PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this. so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?
In MVI, ehunt got drunk with his kickball team and posted several dozen times in a row. It was HILARIOUS and that's gotta be what Robz is referencing. He'll drink all the wine!
Aww ok, I was kinda hoping for a bigger conspiracy theory but I guess Occam's razor strikes again!
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.
I'll drink to that!
This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!
Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.
;)
@Dsell, it does not run out as far as I'm aware. Robz said he took me to the cellar and cracked a fresh cask of his finest - so it should flow plentiful.
speaking of ehunt, I wonder if the wine was the object that he didn't want to get because it would go out of the game? Perhaps because he would drink all of it? If so.... good one Robz.
Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.
;)
oh god damn it.
that's probably a real thing in this game.
>.>
I had forgotten he had said that. I was simply referencing the hilarity of M-VI, but I think there's a solid chance this is the case.
This will make tracking who has it all the more important, because as he says, "Anybody who gives it to him should instantly be viewed as obvscum" - thus it's important that we always know where it's going - or at least where it came from.
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On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic. I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe. Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup? I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.
PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this. so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?
In MVI, ehunt got drunk with his kickball team and posted several dozen times in a row. It was HILARIOUS and that's gotta be what Robz is referencing. He'll drink all the wine!
Aww ok, I was kinda hoping for a bigger conspiracy theory but I guess Occam's razor strikes again!
You can read it here if you want a laugh.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3074.2650
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>.>
I had forgotten he had said that. I was simply referencing the hilarity of M-VI, but I think there's a solid chance this is the case.
This will make tracking who has it all the more important, because as he says, "Anybody who gives it to him should instantly be viewed as obvscum" - thus it's important that we always know where it's going - or at least where it came from.
I almost hesitate to say it but does that mean that people should give it to people they suspect to be town more than those they suspect to be mafia? Because if the first scum that gets it wants to take one for their team and pass it to ehunt, they can do that. Obviously that's bad for them though.
Actually, is the wine gonna go away once it hits even one scum? Because if the person who gave it to them outs them, they'll be lynched and the wine is never passed. The scum team would also have the chance to kill the person who passed it to them, and in that case, if the scum-who-has-the-wine just passes it to their nightkill target, it would be lost there too. Right?
So if all of the above is true, it makes it seem much safer to pass it to people who we think aren't scum but who aren't yet cleared. That way we can hopefully get a nice trail of confirmed townies before it is passed to scum.
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On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic. I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe. Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup? I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.
PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this. so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?
10/10. Would read again.
In MVI, ehunt got drunk with his kickball team and posted several dozen times in a row. It was HILARIOUS and that's gotta be what Robz is referencing. He'll drink all the wine!
Aww ok, I was kinda hoping for a bigger conspiracy theory but I guess Occam's razor strikes again!
You can read it here if you want a laugh.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3074.2650
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Apparently I didn't scroll all the way down. My response was: 10/10, would read again. Its buried in the middle of those quotes... :(
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Needless to say, yes, I am the town drunk. If I get the glass of wine I will drink it all up and it will be removed from the game (I thought it was a bottle, but otherwise Galzria's understanding of the item matches mine).
However, as I already said -- I thought it was Glooble who breadcrumbed this (he mentioned a "minigame" with Grujah, then later referenced my embarrassing MVI incident). So either Galzria is lying (and killed Glooble!) or I was wrong. I am going to give Galzria the benefit of the doubt on this because it seems just way too ridiculous and gutsy to fake-claim (since he could just keep his mouth shut about the existence of the glass in the first place). So presumably I was wrong, in which case town got lucky that based on my mistake I sheeped Glooble's reads of Grujah and O. I am going to "trust but verify" this though, cause I really played the majority of D1 under the assumption that Grujah had the bottle/glass.
PPE - @DSell - as far as confirmed townies go, it's not that powerful of an investigative tool, since it only reveals descriptions (e.g. is it obvious from Grujah's leaked description that he was scum? I don't think so). So it's not the end of the world if a foolhardy scum gives it to me; that will out a scum for sure at the expense of losing the bottle.
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Here was my initial thought:
The holder each day announces that he possesses the Cup, along with anything he knows of who gave it to him. He does NOT reveal who he plans on giving it to. At night, a (secret) Doctor protects the original bearer. Both parties follow a town agreed upon action. At the dawn of the new day, first the original bearer claims who he gave it to, then the new owner confirms this.
This protects the player who currently holds it on any given day, while keeping the target random. This maximizesthe chances that we create confirmed town and force scum out. It also prevents scum from passing it to teammates who've already received it once - that is, they can't cycle it to themselves more than once thorough.
Obviously, a scum may lie about a result, so we can't take claims as absolutes, but if they lie about a townie, they're just outing themselves - and if they lie about a partner, well hopefully the chain will catch up to them.
My concerns:
Town -> Town is fine.
Town -> Scum - this is why I think the previous owner should claim first each day, because this is more likely than:
Scum -> Town - Scum must now really place the WIFOM to us, because is the recipient really town, or was it:
Scum -> Scum - Especially true if there are two teams. If he presents it to a teammate, he'll probably claim town result, but as soon as the Cup hits either of the two above we're in good shape.
Obviously a Strongman kill can overpower the Doctored original bearer, but at least the Cup stays in circulation. My biggest worry is if someone claims to have not received it, how do we handle that situation? Do we lynch the original bearer, on the premise that he lied about who he sent it to, therefore he is likely scum - or do we lynch the recipient who claims to have not received it? I would hate to lose track of it, and this scenario only outs one scum. Hmm..
However, don't take this as me directing PR's. It's just my initial thoughts on how best to handle the Cup. More thoughts always appreciated.
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
Wouldn't that make Galz obv scum?
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>.>
I had forgotten he had said that. I was simply referencing the hilarity of M-VI, but I think there's a solid chance this is the case.
This will make tracking who has it all the more important, because as he says, "Anybody who gives it to him should instantly be viewed as obvscum" - thus it's important that we always know where it's going - or at least where it came from.
I almost hesitate to say it but does that mean that people should give it to people they suspect to be town more than those they suspect to be mafia? Because if the first scum that gets it wants to take one for their team and pass it to ehunt, they can do that. Obviously that's bad for them though.
Actually, is the wine gonna go away once it hits even one scum? Because if the person who gave it to them outs them, they'll be lynched and the wine is never passed. The scum team would also have the chance to kill the person who passed it to them, and in that case, if the scum-who-has-the-wine just passes it to their nightkill target, it would be lost there too. Right?
So if all of the above is true, it makes it seem much safer to pass it to people who we think aren't scum but who aren't yet cleared. That way we can hopefully get a nice trail of confirmed townies before it is passed to scum.
I clarified this with Robz today:
The person I choose was officially presented the Wine the moment I sent him the name. Thus if I was lynched yesterday, the new owner would still have possession.
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Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?
And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?
Wouldn't that make Galz obv scum?
...no, because we hadn't agreed on this yet.
You're trolling, right?
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I dont think descriptions really help determine alignment. Mine only indicates role, grujah's indicated role, I assume the same is for everyone. I dont think the wine is worth too much protection. In fact I think we should give it to eHunt, I don't want scum to be able to rolehunt.
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I think I was pretty clear why Joth gave me a bad vibe. Its not exactly that he wanted to look off wagon; like I said, I might want to as well. However, to that quickly go out and say it without any supporting evidence is a little scummy to me. Granted it has been a long night, he could have been developing these ideas in his brain for a while and it just gets vomited out because he thinks its obvious after all the time spent thinking about it. I dont know, but if he were to have just at least given a little more of a reason why before directing everyone I'd be cool.
joth's post didn't read as "directing" at all. What he posted really is obvious, and characterizing his simple post as "vomit" is just ugh. I don't think I had a town read on jo before, but my scum read on you is bleeding over to make jo look better.
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I'm reading the last portion of the day, when Grujah's wagon really got rolling.
Morgrim hunting. shraeye starts in #1324. Axxle joins in #1340. jo jumps on in #1417, after the wagon on Grujah gains momentum (and he half-defends Gruj in #1453). sparky is next in #1454, and that particular post is somewhat interesting in that I feel he makes a lot of really questionable observations and arguments (by the way, I find it curious how Axxle told sparky to focus on me). Dsell joins that wagon in #1468. More thoughts on that below. jo switches to Grujah in #1484 to make it L-2 on Gruj... that could be an eleventh hour bus. Axxle indicates intent to hammer in #1486 and asks Gruj to claim. I note this because it could also be a late bus, along with giving his buddy a chance to try to talk his way out if he has it in him. Hammer actually comes in #1495.
In #1440 Young Nick asks yuma to go after a lurker other than Grujah (naming himself, Glooble and igb). I recall finding this strange the first time through, and it looks even weirder now. Maybe I'm missing contest, though this could be read as trying to derail the Grujah wagon. I actually asked about this in #1459 and Nick never answered.
ashersky suggests no lynch in #1441. Worth noting, though ultimately this doesn't give me a read on him one way or the other.
In #1442 TheMunch all but defends Grujah. He basically says he has a town read on Gruj, then argues in depth that a Grujah lynch would be uninformative, once again misrepresenting my arguments on info-lynches. And then he tries to cast more suspicion on me, saying he finds my vote "interesting" (which not-so-subtle negative undertones) even though he admits that I'm being completely self-consistent.
In #1468, Dsell votes for Morgrim and defends Grujah. He had originally listed Gruj as third choice, which would be a very good place for scum to put scumbuddy -- "ooh, kind of suspicious, but there are other people I would rather vote for." But in this post, Dsell renounces that position and suggests that Gruj is starting to look like the usual d1 mislynch. That argument did not ring true to me at all, as can be seen in subsequent conversation between me and Dsell, posts #1470-#1480. #1474 and #1480 especially read like a scumbuddy trying to defend his teammate.
So to summarize -- people who tried to lynch Morg include shraeye, Axxle, jo, sparky and Dsell. jo and Axxle jump ship late to take Grujah down. The switch of either player might be bussing; OTOH, they could have tried to wait it out into no lynch. If one of Grujah's buddies bussed him, I expect it would be either jo or Axxle. Probably not both, though it's possible.
Of the others on the Morgrim wagon, shraeye gets a bit of a pass simply because he doesn't know Morgrim's meta like the rest of us do. sparky kind of gets that pass as well (though as noted above, I find his play so far questionable at best, PLUS he inherits some baggage from Volt in that case-gone-wrong on me, PLUS there is that weird thing where Axxle told him to focus on me). Certainly Axxle, jo and Dsell should know better. Dsell comes out the worst for defending known scum with some arguments that I thought were bad even before the flip.
Nick looks bad to me solely for #1440. Young Nick, I still want you to answer my question to you in #1459.
ftl's voting analysis in #1553 gives the following counts (in descending order):
Munch: 8
ashersky: 7
Voltaire: 6
Volt/sparky: 4/1
Dsell: 4
CF: 3
shraeye: 3 (including lots on O)
igb: 2
Insomniac: 2, very early
Nick: 2
Alarm bells ring in my head every time Munch posts, and all this analysis makes me very comfortable to Vote: TheMunch.
Based on ftl's analysis, I'm very interested in whether ashersky and Voltaire ever weighed in on Grujah's wagon.
While I think Munch is scummiest by far, there are quite a few others who look scummy to me, as per the above. Dsell looks quite bad. I think jo would be my third... after noting that he got onto the wagon very late, the "not a lot of bussing" comment in #1512 does sound a bit hollow. Still, I don't find it worthy of three quick votes. jo's statement is only strange in light of his late position on the Grujah wagon; this is something that none of his early voters bring up.
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Ill read your whole post later ehalc, but wanted to say that I wanted sparky to focus on you since volt had a read on you. I wanted to see how sparky would read you in light of that.
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I dont think descriptions really help determine alignment. Mine only indicates role, grujah's indicated role, I assume the same is for everyone. I dont think the wine is worth too much protection. In fact I think we should give it to eHunt, I don't want scum to be able to rolehunt.
I am not sure what to make of this WIFOM (aside: I think we need a different acronym to refer to the object vs. the concept). It seems like it has the potential to help, but it's really not that potent. It'll work ~50% of the time (unless we come to a system, I suppose), and even when descriptions do get made known, they probably won't be very helpful for ID purposes. I'm sure Robz structured it that way on purpose.
FWIW: I notice that Grujah's description says that he "won (lost?) the random number generator contest". With that and my own role PM, I expect that people with especially powerful or interesting roles will be considered "winners" while others will have less favourable impressions of the RNG. Note I am not claiming one way or the other whether my description calls me a winner or loser. I am noting that my status as RNG winner/loser corresponds to the power of my role. So perhaps the wine can be used as a decent investigative tool, if not the best.
Anyway, I don't agree with Axxle's concern. Yes, it might help scum rolehunt... but only once, and doing so would just as well let the other player see the scum player's own description. Again, it might be rather innocuous... or it might not.
I actually have a different concern, and it once again dips into conspiracies. Eevee, now confirmed town, had reason to believe there was a cult in the town (caveat: I think Eevee only said he knew of a recruiting faction -- it might not be a cult at all). Drinking from a glass of wine certainly seems like something that would be done as initiation into some secret order. That Galz started with it could be a reference to RMMI, where Galz was a cult leader. Then again, that would be a rather overt reference, not as subtle as ehunt's drunkenness. Well, maybe subtle isn't the right word -- "unexpected" or "meta" might be a better description. Anyway, keep in mind that a "drink our wine" initiation would work just as well for Masonry or even a Neighborhood as it would for a Cult. And again, this is conspiracy theory stuff.
Anyway, the possible danger there is the main reason I'd be interested in letting ehunt drink ALL the wine. I have a huge town read on ehunt (caveat: might be because he defended me on day 1, which is not the best way to get reads) so I will sheep him on this particular matter. Since ehunt seems to believe the wine is a force for good, then I will consider it as such until I have reason to believe otherwise.
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Ill read your whole post later ehalc, but wanted to say that I wanted sparky to focus on you since volt had a read on you. I wanted to see how sparky would read you in light of that.
Reasonable.
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FWIW: I notice that Grujah's description says that he "won (lost?) the random number generator contest". With that and my own role PM, I expect that people with especially powerful or interesting roles will be considered "winners" while others will have less favourable impressions of the RNG. Note I am not claiming one way or the other whether my description calls me a winner or loser. I am noting that my status as RNG winner/loser corresponds to the power of my role. So perhaps the wine can be used as a decent investigative tool, if not the best.
This paragraph gives me a moderate townread on eHal, for complicated reasons involving my (obvtown) role description not having a reference to winning or losing the RNG at all.
There's some wine involved, but suffice it to say, I don't think scum eHal would mention a particular similarity between his role PM and another scum role PM.
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Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
PS I find it interesting that ehalc mentioned that if people just vote for someone to get them to die, we gain no information because everyone has an excuse. Yet ehalc is voting for grujah. I know he voiced different reasons for doing so but I just find it interesting.
PPE: @ashersky I'm gonna claim newbie on this one but, holy cow 25 people is a lot to keep track of and just from a "one less person to keep in my brain" standpoint I dont think I could go today with no lynch. I know people are going to die in the night but my brain cant take it. This shit is hard.
So, this is the post that Ehalcyon was referencing and I can say I was TOTALLY defending grujah... /sarcasm. Wait, thats not what I was doing at all. I was expressing that I didn't have the scummiest of reads on grujah and I didn't really like any of the reasons people were jumping on him. In fact in my next post, 1458:
Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
I agree with this. Although my read on Grujah isnt town, its nothing.
I explain that I didn't really have a protown read on Grujah either.
The closest thing to an argument I had to get on the Grujah wagon was the argument that he kept only coming back to defend himself very shortly after he got votes (I forget who said it). However, he was dead before I could check whether or not this is the case (so I never did; I should do that). The thing I'd be looking for is whether or not he actually came to defend himself every time he accumulated some number of votes. The fact that he came back after votes sometime isn't nearly as strong an argument as coming back after votes every time.
But great, we killed scum day 1 and I'm happy for that, but I really dont think there is much to go on (or at least past me did; I intend to reread to get more specific evidence about which I am talking) because as the wagon developed I really didn't feel that people had any strong cases against him and he was jumped on for being "today's lynch". I also had pointed out earlier that one of the first people that grew the wagon did it because "there were a bunch of people at 2 votes and Grujah felt the scummiest". Thats not really good information to pull from and I dont like it.
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Munch does not really seem happy enough about our lynch. "Great, we killed scum D1, but...." There's no but. Killing scum D1 is huge. In a town this size, where so many of us were doubting we'd even get a majority to lynch at all that we came up with like 3 different plans to do so, and then we actually do pull a majority together and lynch scum? That's a friggin miracle.
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Vote Count 2.2
ashersky (2) -- Cuzz, watno
jotheonah (1) -- ashersky
TheMunch (1) -- eHalcyon
Not Voting (17) -- Ftl, sparky5856, Insomniac, Dsell, Jotheonah, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, Cayvie, Yuma, ibgtennis, Morgrim7, Galzria, Captain_Frisk, ehunt, shraeye, TheMunch
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.
Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.
Today we get to do the opposite. Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?
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@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.
Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.
Today we get to do the opposite. Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?
Yeah I didn't mean to be very poo poo about the fact that we lynched town day 1. I can definitely see why, after having played a ton of games where town ultimately gets lynched D1, it is very exciting to go into day 2 under a differently light. But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon. I still need to go back and do the reread of the development of the grujah wagon to see what actually went down. Maybe it was the amount of attention I paid but the whole wagon seemed to go down very quickly so I would love to reevaluate what actually happened. I'll be back when I do that.
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I actually have a different concern, and it once again dips into conspiracies. Eevee, now confirmed town, had reason to believe there was a cult in the town (caveat: I think Eevee only said he knew of a recruiting faction -- it might not be a cult at all). Drinking from a glass of wine certainly seems like something that would be done as initiation into some secret order. That Galz started with it could be a reference to RMMI, where Galz was a cult leader. Then again, that would be a rather overt reference, not as subtle as ehunt's drunkenness. Well, maybe subtle isn't the right word -- "unexpected" or "meta" might be a better description. Anyway, keep in mind that a "drink our wine" initiation would work just as well for Masonry or even a Neighborhood as it would for a Cult. And again, this is conspiracy theory stuff.
Anyway, the possible danger there is the main reason I'd be interested in letting ehunt drink ALL the wine. I have a huge town read on ehunt (caveat: might be because he defended me on day 1, which is not the best way to get reads) so I will sheep him on this particular matter. Since ehunt seems to believe the wine is a force for good, then I will consider it as such until I have reason to believe otherwise.
I think if the wine were initiation into a cult, it would be borderline bastard mod. The description I received of what the wine does (initiates a subgame where possibly the descriptions of the two players are revealed to each other) matched Galz's more or less on the nose (I say more or less because my description of the subgame was vaguer). I guess Robz didn't say "this is an exhaustive list of what the wine does," but still...
Nonetheless, out of heightened paranoia - let's change the default town response to an offer to be don't drink.
There's one other thing the wine does if it's given to me: if a town-aligned power role gives me the wine, I involuntarily "blab" the power role to everyone. If a VT or scum gives me the wine, this doesn't happen. I do not understand the flavor that differentiates between VT/scum and power-role-town, but the rule is what it is: it's basically strictly anti-town, since it doesn't serve to differentiate scum from town, it only exposes town PRs.
Yesterday I didn't want to disclose this because I thought it was possible that scum would give me the wine in spite of my "don't give me the wine" post and argue that they gave me the wine because they didn't believe me. I wanted to be able, if this happened, to catch them in a lie by making them false-claim a power role. But this is no longer necessary, since it seems everyone agrees that whoever gives me the wine is just definitely scum. So it means we can just make an exception to that rule: if you are a town power role, and you are about to be lynched, and you happen to have the wine, you can give it to me to get your townitude mod-confirmed. It seems unlikely that all three of those things are going to happen simultaneously, but just so people know. Does this make sense to people? I feel inarticulate as I type this.
I don't think the wine is that pro-town, since it only has a 50% chance of working and descriptions are not giveaways to alignment. So losing it won't be the end of the world. We can agree that VTs should give it to me under no circumstances and town PRs should only give it to me if they're about to be lynched.
By the way, I'm nearly certain that Robz designed my role before he chose my alignment. What follows is a long "proof" of that fact, the tl;dr is bolded below. I think I may have said this yesterday, but let me explain in detail.
Yesterday I had debated starting a case on eevee on the following grounds: eevee got special role info indicating the existence of a cult. Now, why would Robz give that to a townie? A townie will just rat out the cult (as eevee did). The only way it's interesting is if eevee is scum and has to debate whether to let the town in on the extra knowledge or not.
The reason I didn't start the case is that I realized my own role had a similar weird catch: why not just tell the wine-owner not to give me the wine (as I - thought - I did!)? Yeh, if the wine-owner is scum, he'll just give me the wine, but then everyone will know he's scum because I just announced to the whole topic not to give me the wine. After I posted I then wondered if there was maybe a timing issue - the point being that scum could give me the wine and NK me before I could say who gave me the wine. I worried that I had screwed up, but at the time I was certain that Glooble had the bottle and relatively certain that we had communicated this fact between the two of us successfully (now I feel a little like one of those schizophrenic music fans who thinks the band is encoding personal messages...).
Anyway, I think my sort of "personality-related extra" (and presumably also eevee's) is designed to have interesting strategic value both for scum and for town, and that's why there's some "wait, why can't I break this by just doing x?" aspects of both these roles. Samesies for Axxle's double-vote. In other words, I think that Robz developed personality-related extras, then randomized alignment. This also seems like the fairest way to both "incorporate people's personalities" and still have a game that's not broken (nobody wants to have a "so-and-so's a jerk, so he's probably mafia" argument).
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So I wanted to at least compile all of the voting reasons for the Grujah votes. Because ehunt voted so long about on Grujah, I have him listed that he didn't give a reason but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it was explained earlier, I just didn't bother hunting for it. I didn't quote people, I just copy pasted their responses and put them in quotes below. This was less work for me. Ok here it is:
Glooble Votes Grujah in 479 for "showing up, voting on me, and disappearing."
ehunt Votes Grujah in 1295 without giving a reason.
WAGON START:
1375: (Yuma) "I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah"
1386: (Galzria) "I agree. He was in one of my top 3, and we really should start looking to consolidate. Since my #1 choice (eHal) seems to be met with equal parts adamant opposition and slight consideration, it really doesn't seem to be a productive choice. So I'll vote where there we might get something going - the fact that it's not on a town-read makes it all the better for me."
1404: (eHal) "I think he has lurked hard, which is really unusual for him. He returns just when it starts to heat up for him, and his posts read scummy. This wagon has a decent chance of lift-off, and I have decent reads on most on the wagon so far (not sure of the vote count though). Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch."
1433: (Eevee) "Grujah's defence doesn't read genuine to me"
1445: (Morgrim) "because he is the most likely person to be lynched"
1479: (ftl) "I didn't realize that about the timing of his posts, that's pretty bad."
1484: (joth) "Galz (argument about post timing) has got me convinced too"
1495: (Axxle) "Yaaaay!" (he really wanted to hammer)
So that is a collection of all the voting reasons for Grujah and it seems really flaky. Yuma starts the wagon because he felt he was the least town of the people with the most votes. Galz abandoned his first choice for a "more likely" target, and this was only when he had 3 votes. At least he said he didn't have a town read. Ehal is the first to actually bring up some points but really is only beating on him for lurkiness. Eevee gets a scum read from Grujah's defense. Morgrim votes because Grujah is likely. Ftl and joth sheeps posting pattern argument. Then axxle hammers.
I'm sorry for not being ecstatic that we lynched scum day 1 with a wagon like this.
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In the Glooble-Grujah wars I sympathize with Glooble, which makes me want to vote for Grujah.
@TheMunch here was my one-sentence case (it was intentionally buried in a whole bunch of other thoughts because at the time I thought Glooble had the wine and I did not want to alert scum of this)
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In the Glooble-Grujah wars I sympathize with Glooble, which makes me want to vote for Grujah.
@TheMunch here was my one-sentence case (it was intentionally buried in a whole bunch of other thoughts because at the time I thought Glooble had the wine and I did not want to alert scum of this)
Ah cool thanks for the info.
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I realized I left someone off this list. I realized this when I went back and saw cuzz responding to me for "our lynch" but I had missed him on my first read so I was confused. He votes on post 1407 with the reason "He was gonna be my second choice anyway and we need to make sure a lynch happens. I apparently suck at saying anything productive on D1 so I'll be happy to get it over with."
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@The Munch:
Galz's argument about the posting pattern, that ftl and I sheeped, actually WAS really good. It's the kind of scumhunting we should be doing, and it laid Grujah's MO really bare. At the time I voted, I really was pretty convinced we were hitting scum, despite my town read on Grujah earlier in the day.
I can't really defend myself beyond that; I do think that I myself look pretty bad in terms of the Morg-Grujah wagons, so it seems hypocritical to accuse others of doing on purpose as scum what I stumbled into by accident as town (I guess this is what I get for being a contrarian.) That said, I do think it's a productive avenue to go down.
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So I am still a bit confused at why Eevee claimed that something would happen if Cult (or whatever faction) recruited him. I instantly thought that it would do something BAD if there was a cult around -- bad for the cult, that is. It would make sense as a way to balance out the cult -- have some people who are "toxic" recruits. So I thought Eevee revealing his "on recruit" power was a bad move. OTOH, maybe Eevee purposely wanted everyone to have the thought that I did so that the recruiter would leave him alone... because he would die if recruited? Maybe this conspiracy theory is too much. Though it does kind of mirror his role in Ozle's game (seer, in a game without werewolves).
Just remembered -- Eevee claimed it would be good for him to be behind a scum lynch. And he was part of Grujah's lynch... so I wonder if he got anything out of it. Maybe that was why Eevee was killed -- scum didn't want Eevee getting a chance to use whatever good thing he got?
Eevee's post #1332 could be useful. Eevee is dead town, so we can trust his reads a little more. Eevee lists the following:
- Dsell has an intriguing case on Galz, but would be sad to lose Galz if he is town
- scum read on Axxle for weak reason when voting ehunt, and maybe mischaracterizing Eevee's play
- slight scum read on CF for acting like regular scum CF
- found Watno scummy but thought it was too much like "our usual day 1 lynch target" (which tends to be incorrect)
- not a town read on Munch, and would vote "but can't quite put [his] finger on why"
- always sees Ins as scummy
- scum read on jo? I'm actually not sure what Eevee means here.
- thinks cayvie looks scummy
- scum read on Nick for not being helpful
- scum read on Voltaire...
- no read in igb but would lynch
- would vote for Cuzz
First vote choice was Axxle.
Lots of people listed so maybe it isn't helpful after all.
Going to read new posts now and respond.
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yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
Why go for one of the others over Grujah? Serious question.
Sorry I missed this. What I was saying is that this seemed like too easy of an excuse to jump on the wagon. I was not aware of the posting patterns of Grujah (post after someone votes him) at the time. To me, it looked like you were just hedging and voting him because he was a lurker. Why any of the others? Because Grujah had provided some content over the course of the day. ibgtennis had not. I had provided minimal.
I can understand Grujah over Glooble (they were contributing equal amounts in my mind; it makes sense that you can see their butting heads as one being scum and the other not), but I still think it would have made more sense to lynch me or ibgtennis or O.
tl;dr: If you are going to lynch a lurker, then lynch one of the true lurkers. ibgtennis is the only one I see who is still posting way, way too infrequently.
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@The Munch:
Galz's argument about the posting pattern, that ftl and I sheeped, actually WAS really good. It's the kind of scumhunting we should be doing, and it laid Grujah's MO really bare. At the time I voted, I really was pretty convinced we were hitting scum, despite my town read on Grujah earlier in the day.
I can't really defend myself beyond that; I do think that I myself look pretty bad in terms of the Morg-Grujah wagons, so it seems hypocritical to accuse others of doing on purpose as scum what I stumbled into by accident as town (I guess this is what I get for being a contrarian.) That said, I do think it's a productive avenue to go down.
I agree the posting argument is the best argument that I've seen thusfar. In fact, I mentioned it earlier as a reason that I had almost jumped on the grujah wagon for myself. I think itd be enough for me to at least give some town-cred to whoever commented on his posting pattern or matter of defending. If not town-cred than at least not-on-the-same-scumteam-as-grujah-cred if there are more scumteams.
But I dont really know what you are being defensive about. Also what do you think is a productive avenue to go down?
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Re: #1590 --
Munch's post was absolutely defending Grujah.
Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
The defense is:
1. doesn't come off as scummy
2. lynch gives no info
And in the process of giving that defense, Munch misrepresents my positions. Not to mention:
PS I find it interesting that ehalc mentioned that if people just vote for someone to get them to die, we gain no information because everyone has an excuse. Yet ehalc is voting for grujah. I know he voiced different reasons for doing so but I just find it interesting.
Here, Munch seems to talk about me with a lot of suspicion, but his reasons are non-reasons. He even admits it -- "I know he voiced different reasons".
But back to the top part, Munch definitely gives a defense. It is not a super strong defense, sure. But that just makes it seem scummier -- it's hedgy like "I need a way out if he is killed and flips scum".
Munch is right that in #1458, Munch voices lack of read on Grujah rather than town read. But that's not my argument here. Munch does indeed defend Grujah (in a distanced, noncommittal way), and #1458 is just more "this wagon is too fast, maybe we should slow down".
Munch's last paragraph in #1590 also looks bad to me. He brings up yuma's vote again (that he voted to wagon) even though yuma addressed that point the first time it was brought up. It feels like Munch is trying to misrepresent yuma, and I feel that this is a pattern with him as he has done the same with me repeatedly.
Re: #1596 --
ehunt's vote is somewhat explained in #1246 (I see that ehunt has already posted this). I believe the "wars" he refers to were in choosing a lurker to lynch. ehunt has explained why he sympathized with Glooble.
yuma's reason for voting is misrepresented -- he clarified afterwards that he did indeed find Grujah scummy.
Galzria's initial reason in #1386 is eclipsed by the much better case he pulled together later on.
My case was not just beating on him for lurkiness -- it was the starting point for the major lynch case, the base for Galz's expansion.
And re: #1599, Cuzz quoted my own reasons for voting Grujah, thus implicitly agreeing with them.
Munch is looking entirely the wrong way. His reaction so far on this day reads to me as: "people on the wagon didn't have amazingly convincing reasons for voting Grujah, therefore we should not regard it as useful info at all."
The thing is, there are almost never amazingly convincing reasons. The reasons each person gave are the reasons we typically get from any lynch. The reasons are certainly far more telling than "this lynch will be informative", as advocated by Munch earlier. I feel my argument was good, and when Galzria pointed out that he had lurked-and-returned more than once, I thought it cemented the case.
Given that Grujah did in fact flip scum, off-wagon is the place to look next (and in case I need to spell it out -- no, I don't think the wagon is automatically cleared, but they certainly have more town cred than those opposing).
The question du jour is: who was not in favour of the Grujah lynch and why? That's what I looked into in #1585. Why doesn't Munch want to do the same? In #1590 Munch offers a weak (IMO) defense of himself in response to my case. Why not comment on the numerous others I pointed the finger at? Why is he so intent on focusing attention on the successful wagon?
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@The Munch:
Galz's argument about the posting pattern, that ftl and I sheeped, actually WAS really good. It's the kind of scumhunting we should be doing, and it laid Grujah's MO really bare. At the time I voted, I really was pretty convinced we were hitting scum, despite my town read on Grujah earlier in the day.
I can't really defend myself beyond that; I do think that I myself look pretty bad in terms of the Morg-Grujah wagons, so it seems hypocritical to accuse others of doing on purpose as scum what I stumbled into by accident as town (I guess this is what I get for being a contrarian.) That said, I do think it's a productive avenue to go down.
I agree the posting argument is the best argument that I've seen thusfar. In fact, I mentioned it earlier as a reason that I had almost jumped on the grujah wagon for myself. I think itd be enough for me to at least give some town-cred to whoever commented on his posting pattern or matter of defending. If not town-cred than at least not-on-the-same-scumteam-as-grujah-cred if there are more scumteams.
But I dont really know what you are being defensive about. Also what do you think is a productive avenue to go down?
This sounds like "no but really I was almost on the wagon so count me on it" doesn't it? Just own missing the wagon. I know I did. Doesn't make me scummy, though.
Also, unvote.
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@The Munch:
Galz's argument about the posting pattern, that ftl and I sheeped, actually WAS really good. It's the kind of scumhunting we should be doing, and it laid Grujah's MO really bare. At the time I voted, I really was pretty convinced we were hitting scum, despite my town read on Grujah earlier in the day.
I can't really defend myself beyond that; I do think that I myself look pretty bad in terms of the Morg-Grujah wagons, so it seems hypocritical to accuse others of doing on purpose as scum what I stumbled into by accident as town (I guess this is what I get for being a contrarian.) That said, I do think it's a productive avenue to go down.
I agree the posting argument is the best argument that I've seen thusfar. In fact, I mentioned it earlier as a reason that I had almost jumped on the grujah wagon for myself. I think itd be enough for me to at least give some town-cred to whoever commented on his posting pattern or matter of defending. If not town-cred than at least not-on-the-same-scumteam-as-grujah-cred if there are more scumteams.
But I dont really know what you are being defensive about. Also what do you think is a productive avenue to go down?
This sounds like "no but really I was almost on the wagon so count me on it" doesn't it? Just own missing the wagon. I know I did. Doesn't make me scummy, though.
Also, unvote.
I was not on the wagon. Not trying to hide that. I was just commenting that Joth seemed defensive and I wasn't being hard on him cause I was swayed by the same argument. This is not the same as me wanting to be counted on the wagon.
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eHalc commented that the combination of (A) my saying we should hunt the wagon today and (B) the weird circumstances of my joining the wagon (at the last minute, in prime bussing position, after having defended Grujah and voted Morgrim7) make me look pretty scummy. So I was owning that, yes, it does look that way. Kind of the opposite of being defensive I guess.
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Jesus Christ. Let me say that Munch's post on wagons doesn't read like an attack on the wagoners, which some people have taken it as. All y'all lynchers did great, congrats. Munch said the same sentiment here
But great, we killed scum day 1 and I'm happy for that, but I really dont think there is much to go on (or at least past me did; I intend to reread to get more specific evidence about which I am talking) because as the wagon developed I really didn't feel that people had any strong cases against him and he was jumped on for being "today's lynch". I also had pointed out earlier that one of the first people that grew the wagon did it because "there were a bunch of people at 2 votes and Grujah felt the scummiest". Thats not really good information to pull from and I dont like it.
Then some people jumped at him (cuzz heavily, frisk lightly, maybe others) for not peeing his pants with glee over lynching scum on D1. Well la-di-effin-da. He had a "meh" position on the wagon and felt like he got attacked for that, so he explained why he wasn't celebrating his face off with his post here.
So I wanted to at least compile all of the voting reasons for the Grujah votes.
Glooble Votes Grujah in 479 for "showing up, voting on me, and disappearing."
ehunt Votes Grujah in 1295 without giving a reason.
WAGON START:
1375: (Yuma) "I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah"
1386: (Galzria) "I agree. He was in one of my top 3, and we really should start looking to consolidate. Since my #1 choice (eHal) seems to be met with equal parts adamant opposition and slight consideration, it really doesn't seem to be a productive choice. So I'll vote where there we might get something going - the fact that it's not on a town-read makes it all the better for me."
1404: (eHal) "I think he has lurked hard, which is really unusual for him. He returns just when it starts to heat up for him, and his posts read scummy. This wagon has a decent chance of lift-off, and I have decent reads on most on the wagon so far (not sure of the vote count though). Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch."
1433: (Eevee) "Grujah's defence doesn't read genuine to me"
1445: (Morgrim) "because he is the most likely person to be lynched"
1479: (ftl) "I didn't realize that about the timing of his posts, that's pretty bad."
1484: (joth) "Galz (argument about post timing) has got me convinced too"
1495: (Axxle) "Yaaaay!" (he really wanted to hammer)
So that is a collection of all the voting reasons for Grujah and it seems really flaky.
I'm sorry for not being ecstatic that we lynched scum day 1 with a wagon like this.
He totally said this earlier in Day 1 as well; that's what he meant when he made this quote that eHalcyon is referring to. eHalcyon, you're wrong. The Munch is not defending Grujah here, you are missing the crucial part of his statement below, and it's literally a part that you bolded. Munch is saying that the way Grujah has been talking doesn't give Munch a scumread on Grujah. In other posts he agreed that the posting patterns (but still not the specific words that were said) were scummily timed, but he didn't have a chance to go back and review this for himself before the lynch happened. Though he didn't have a scumread on Grujah at all, he also didn't have a town-read, and he has explicitly said that before.
Re: #1590 --
Munch's post was absolutely defending Grujah.
Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
The defense is:
1. doesn't come off as scummy
2. lynch gives no info
And in the process of giving that defense, Munch misrepresents my positions. Not to mention:
You both currently have INSANE levels of tunnelling on eachother and reading through that shit is driving me insane. The longer this sad spectacle has gone on the more certain I am that it's town-on-town insanity. Seriously, I challenge you both to make at least 5 posts in a row without arguing with eachother, or casting suspicion at the other person. One of you may be right that the other is scum, but there are other scum as well, and I want to hear about them from time to time, not another round of the longest "you mischaracterized me" "No, you mischaracterized me" "NO, you mischaracterized me!" hissy-fit i've ever been a witness to. Let me settle the argument for you. You're both mischaracterizing the shit out of eachother all over the place, and it's gotten to the point where I don't fucking care anymore. You have both used the words "mischaracterized" or "misstated" or "misrepresented" way more than your monthly quotas of these words could ever be. Mischaracterization might be a scumtell when it's deliberate, but neither of you have shown me at all how the other is deliberate in their stance, you both are consistent in pissing eachother off (apparently), and both super consistent in pissing me off, but consistency isn't deliberateness. (If either of you take this as an invitation to explain to me how the other person is deliberately being mean to you, I will punch a hole so effing far through my computer that I guarantee my fist will hit whoever does it).
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I could be down with this idea. I think it would be good for both of us to take a step back. I do feel like I've just been spending a disproportionate amount of time defending myself; I'm all for vetting new players but it has felt a little much. I would love to talk about eHal's list of off wagon targets though.
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Sorry, I haven't had a chance to reread old munch posts like I said I would. So you're safe from me joining in the tunneling on you, munch. FOR NOW.
eHunt's latest plan for what to do with the wine sounds good to me.
There's still some people from off-wagon who haven't said a single thing today yet I think. They need to get in here.
Also, shraeye, I think I like you for the end of that last post, +1 would read again... if I were doing a reread.
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I agree with eHunt's idea of what to do with the wine. I was off the wagon but I tend to not lynch people for being lurky, although I do like Galz's case.
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Addressing some issues:
But great, we killed scum day 1 and I'm happy for that, but I really dont think there is much to go on (or at least past me did; I intend to reread to get more specific evidence about which I am talking) because as the wagon developed I really didn't feel that people had any strong cases against him and he was jumped on for being "today's lynch". I also had pointed out earlier that one of the first people that grew the wagon did it because "there were a bunch of people at 2 votes and Grujah felt the scummiest". Thats not really good information to pull from and I dont like it.
I am pretty sure that I am being alluded to here and I don't like it. I can't believe that I have to defend my vote on Grujah, but I will anyways.
You say that my reason for voting "there were a bunch of people at 2 votes and Grujah felt the scummiest" is invalid. First, you need to understand that it wasn't only that Grujah felt the scummiest, it was that of everyone that I felt was scummy, Grujah had the most current votes and had the best chance of being a good lynch target. I had already said that Grujah had provided the least amount of content, and I still stand by that. He provided nothing all game. As I repeatedly said, we needed to come to a consensus, we needed to collect our votes in one place and force the issue, otherwise we would now be at a no-lynch day 2.
In fact you agree with this later:
I'm going to go back and reread some stuff from Grujah as I didn't necessarily have a read on him; although, I do side with Yuma and Shraeye, if the last few IRL days weren't any evidence, there is no way anyone is getting lynched with our very scattered opinions.
Furthermore: I did not vote Grujah for informational purposes. I voted for him because he was to me the most likely person to be scum who had a reasonable chance of being lynched. I wasn't looking for information, information will come with a lynch regardless, I was looking to lynch scum. Perhaps you would have rather had us lynch town, so that we could have more information today? Why in the world would you trade lynched scum for "potentially confusing and easily misinterpreted information from a townie lynch that may or may not lead to a scum lynch?" To abbreviate that: PCAEMIFATLTMOMNLTACL!
So I wanted to at least compile all of the voting reasons for the Grujah votes.
(snip)
WAGON START:
1375: (Yuma) "I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah"
So that is a collection of all the voting reasons for Grujah and it seems really flaky. Yuma starts the wagon because he felt he was the least town of the people with the most votes.
again, I feel this is a misinterpretation of my vote. I did not see Grujah as the "least town." But instead because he was high on my scum list and also had two votes and I felt was our best bet to get a scum lynch.
Sorry I missed this. What I was saying is that this seemed like too easy of an excuse to jump on the wagon. I was not aware of the posting patterns of Grujah (post after someone votes him) at the time. To me, it looked like you were just hedging and voting him because he was a lurker. Why any of the others? Because Grujah had provided some content over the course of the day. ibgtennis had not. I had provided minimal.
I can understand Grujah over Glooble (they were contributing equal amounts in my mind; it makes sense that you can see their butting heads as one being scum and the other not), but I still think it would have made more sense to lynch me or ibgtennis or O.
tl;dr: If you are going to lynch a lurker, then lynch one of the true lurkers. ibgtennis is the only one I see who is still posting way, way too infrequently.
And lastly in regard to Young Nick:
I didn't vote Grujah because he was a lurker alone. Again--this is like the fourth time I have said this, this post--I voted for him because he was the most scummy player who had a chance of being lynched. Yes he was lurking. But not just lurking, he was scummily lurking. When he came he provided little to no content--this was in stark contrast to former Grujah plays. You suggest a vote for you or ibgtennis would have been more appropriate? I didn't and don't think it was. I was giving you a temporary pass as you were late to the game (this is completely expired by the way), and in the few posts where ibgtennis posted there was content. He provided information that I could read, analyze and make a town read off of. I am not going to lynch someone for just "lurking."
I do find it very strange that you were so adamant that I change my vote from Grujah right as it was picking up steam, and that you pinpointed me out when there were, I think there were about 5 other voters on Grujah at that time.
I am not going to vote for either of you at this point, but TheMunch and Young Nick are both high on my suspicious list
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The folks we haven't heard from today are Voltaire and Ibgtennis. Do either have V/LA claims? If not, can we mod-prod them?
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Wow Yuma, that is a lot of content for defending a vote on scum.
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Wow Yuma, that is a lot of content for defending a vote on scum.
I know right!
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@yuma: I was stating what I was thinking at the time, even if it was incorrect. I was never saying you had to change your vote, just that it looked curious to me. You justified it. It makes sense. He ended up being scum. I am not concerned. End of story.
I, despite my play-style, am for a Lynch-All-Lurkers meta. I am not saying that is where one always will find scum (though sometimes we do), but rather just a way to make the scum-lurk no longer feasible.
I am just about ready to hear from ibtennis who has 8 serious posts from the start of the game. I don't question that his/her V/LA are real, but would appreciate a) advanced warning so we aren't left hanging like we currently are and b) more contribution and posts so we know he (she?) is alive when (s)he isn't V/LA.
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Now that I'm dead in waffle-related mafia, I have more time for this fun party. Let me read back this day at least...
First off:
lulz on page 96 but knows hwo mafia \is
axxle has posted TWICE today!@!@!~@@!@!!!!!!!!!
i will be sober tomorrow but youll stil be mafia -- winston churchill
O_____o
We should have a blitz mafia game where EVERYONE gets drunk like that.
Nonetheless, out of heightened paranoia - let's change the default town response to an offer to be don't drink.
I find that to be hilarious after browsing through that MVI snippet. But it's actually a smart idea too.
eHalc is actually townish to me. Reading #1604 for instance, he's examining a lot of content. I don't even remember what I wrote back at the end of Day 1 but as he calls it questionable I won't refer to it again. It was a disorganized collection of thoughts as I was reading through the thread.
shraeye is being a bit too violent, not much like when I played with him in MIX.
TheMunch is giving me an uneasy feeling, either cause he's new or because he seems like he's trying to find the perfect words to cover himself and not succeeding very well.
I could be down with this idea. I think it would be good for both of us to take a step back. I do feel like I've just been spending a disproportionate amount of time defending myself; I'm all for vetting new players but it has felt a little much. I would love to talk about eHal's list of off wagon targets though.
ahhhh the I's are bothering me again.
Not much from me at the moment, I'm tired as a tired person can be.
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We should have a blitz mafia game where EVERYONE gets drunk like that.
DIBS!
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I have some responses in my head to shraeye's post and Munch's response, but I'm holding back because I want to see others put in their two cents.
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I have some responses in my head to shraeye's post and Munch's response, but I'm holding back because I want to see others put in their two cents.
what, that shraeye is munch's scumbuddy, and he's like "calm down dude, you're gonna get lynched"?
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I have some responses in my head to shraeye's post and Munch's response, but I'm holding back because I want to see others put in their two cents.
what, that shraeye is munch's scumbuddy, and he's like "calm down dude, you're gonna get lynched"?
While that's possible, I only meant that I had rebuttals to his criticisms of my case. And I think it is a very strong case. But I want to see what other people think. A few people expressed a town read on Munch on day 1 but I have been getting none of that, and my scum read on him has just gotten bigger and bigger. Am I really the only one that sees it?
I also can't comprehend why nobody else has tried to examine the players not on the wagon. I made a nice big post about it and nobody has commented on all those players. We have all this info and nobody wants to use it. Come on people.
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@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.
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@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.
Well DUH. If there weren't than we would be looking at 13 scum!
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That was an idiotic thing to say. FoS Insomniac.
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That was an idiotic thing to say. FoS Insomniac.
Personal attacks?
I just don't see why off wagon is 100% a better place to look for scum, I think scum would have had Grujah on their list because he was a popular choice and it looks more innocent, had I been scum I would have straight up voted him on day 1, after ZM2 you get soo much town credit for bussing your partner day 1 it's unreal. So I think it's a bit of a farce to suggest they wouldn't have bussed, because I think at least one of them would have, and I suspect there are multiple teams which means I suspect there to be a fairly large number of scum on the wagon.
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Ok, all of that is reasonable, but you just made the following argument:
1) I am off the wagon.
2) I am not scum.
3) Therefore, because at least one non-scum is off the wagon, off the wagon is a bad place to look for scum.
It's just a ridiculous argument. I expect better from you. And there's something scummy about how personally you're taking the off-wagon hunt.
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I'm not taking it personally I just find it far less compelling and since no one has responded to it I figured I should.
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I was off the wagon, and I agree that off the wagon is the best place to look for scum. I appreciate eHalc's work though I know he's able to put in that kind of work as scum too.
I think his case on TheMunch actually seems pretty good. While I wasn't getting much of a read from him yesterday, he's looking rather scummy to me today, especially since he was off-wagon. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I kinda expect one of TheMunch and eHalc to be scum, and at this point I'm leaning towards Munch.
It would still be nice to see them do that exercise where they each make 5 posts not about the other.
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@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.
... Must... Not... Ragevote...
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I'm with you Galz. I'm off the wagon, and I absolutely think we should be looking there.
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I have some responses in my head to shraeye's post and Munch's response, but I'm holding back because I want to see others put in their two cents.
what, that shraeye is munch's scumbuddy, and he's like "calm down dude, you're gonna get lynched"?
While that's possible, I only meant that I had rebuttals to his criticisms of my case. And I think it is a very strong case. But I want to see what other people think. A few people expressed a town read on Munch on day 1 but I have been getting none of that, and my scum read on him has just gotten bigger and bigger. Am I really the only one that sees it?
I also can't comprehend why nobody else has tried to examine the players not on the wagon. I made a nice big post about it and nobody has commented on all those players. We have all this info and nobody wants to use it. Come on people.
Actually, I'm one who had a very pro-town read on him D1, and you're absolutely right that it has quite quickly dissolved here D2. I've been WAY to busy to put in the time needed in any of my games recently, only getting off a couple of sentences here and there. But your case has NOT gone unread, or unnoticed, nor has the responses that have been made. I'm doing my best right now just to stay caught up to date - but going back and doing any research is beyond what I have time for right now. You're not alone in your thinking however, so don't be terribly discouraged.
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@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.
Well DUH. If there weren't than we would be looking at 13 scum!
lol
what I have trouble seeing is why mafia would bus their jack-of-all-trades. It gives town cred, but... it's just foolish. Looking off-wagon for mafia at least is a safe bet imo.
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@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.
Well DUH. If there weren't than we would be looking at 13 scum!
lol
what I have trouble seeing is why mafia would bus their jack-of-all-trades. It gives town cred, but... it's just foolish. Looking off-wagon for mafia at least is a safe bet imo.
Have you READ ZM2, If I hadn't process of eliminated Robz, I NEVER would have voted for him, he was LITERALLY the lowest suspect on my list.
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ANNOUNCEMENT:
Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.
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ANNOUNCEMENT:
Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.
Perhaps you could recruit a player who has already been killed to come back? Eevee2? Flareon?
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ANNOUNCEMENT:
Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.
Perhaps you could recruit a player who has already been killed to come back? Eevee2? Flareon?
Espeon is probably a better scumhunter :P
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ANNOUNCEMENT:
Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.
Perhaps you could recruit a player who has already been killed to come back? Eevee2? Flareon?
This option is being explored.
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Maybe I pushed ibgtennis' lurking too hard. Huh.
I don't see why everyone is so mad about Insomniac. It's a kind of silly statement, but it's not like a whole argument was based on it, just a little snippet.
I still am looking at Munch because of the hedging I have seen there.
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I think you have a point, Young Nick. And I don't think anyone is about to go vote Insom - I have a town read on him if I'm honest. But bad logic does bug me.
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I think you have a point, Young Nick. And I don't think anyone is about to go vote Insom - I have a town read on him if I'm honest. But bad logic does bug me.
Why would you not be honest?
Put me in the camp of folks who are suspicious of Insom's position. Let's recall late yester-game-day. Insomniac "second-votes" for ehunt with the argument that it will be a good lynch to get information. I ask him to give a concrete example of what "information" means. He refuses to do so. Now after all that, we have a wagon on Grujah which Insomniac's not on, and Insomniac conveniently decides it's not that relevant of a source of information. You can't have it both ways.
All that being said, I'm not saying that nobody bussed Grujah (although I'm inclined to agree with Sparky that generally scum will be reluctant to bus a scum PR). More importantly, I also suspect there are multiple scum-factions and the other scum-team would happily have piled on.
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reread munch, didn't see anything that gave me a particular town vibe, vote: themunch
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morgrim oh morgrim where are you.
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Hi everybody,
I am ibgtennis' new persona. I've been glancing at the thread from time to time, so I have a vague idea of what's going on. I don't think I'll be rereading all 60 pages of day1, but I have read day2 so far.
Anyways, I know others have stated similarly, but so far in what I've read, I've disliked shraeye and themunch's posts the most. (Note: this includes the occasional skimming I did day1)
Insomniac brings up ZM2 as reason not to clear the wagon, even the early voters. This is reasonable, but it doesn't mean we should just ignore it. Scum bus sometimes, even strongly, but you shouldn't be suspicious of pro-town behavior unless it's forced. What I mean is that the act of lynching Grujah should be considered pro-town. But just as one anti-town act does not imply scum, one pro-town act does not imply town. Be wary, not paranoid.
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Hi everybody,
I am ibgtennis' new persona. I've been glancing at the thread from time to time, so I have a vague idea of what's going on. I don't think I'll be rereading all 60 pages of day1, but I have read day2 so far.
Anyways, I know others have stated similarly, but so far in what I've read, I've disliked shraeye and themunch's posts the most. (Note: this includes the occasional skimming I did day1)
Insomniac brings up ZM2 as reason not to clear the wagon, even the early voters. This is reasonable, but it doesn't mean we should just ignore it. Scum bus sometimes, even strongly, but you shouldn't be suspicious of pro-town behavior unless it's forced. What I mean is that the act of lynching Grujah should be considered pro-town. But just as one anti-town act does not imply scum, one pro-town act does not imply town. Be wary, not paranoid.
whoa, you weren't in this game?
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Yeah, I was avoiding it because I didn't really want to be in a game with >13 people. But, then Robz PMs me, and I had been glancing at the thread a few times, and day2 seemed to be going at a bit more reasonable pace, so I decided to go ahead and be a replacement.
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Theorel has replaced ibgtennis.
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It would have been some epit trolling if he wasn't!
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I almost posted last night after sending the message to Robz that I would. Then I realized that maybe I should wait to see my role and make sure some other random person didn't already say he'd replace in.
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I really don't understand the Munch wagon, what we need to do is look at people in relation to Grujah yesterday, look at reasons why people were off the wagon (i agree that more suspicions--but not all the suspicion--should go here), and reasons why people were on the wagon. I'll be doing that in my next post, after I say one more time that y'all are wrong about Munch. I recall what eevee said about day 1 much earlier
"Lets not go after the first guy who gets up to 6 votes because of some pseudo-slip like we usually do, we all know how that would work out.
Also, ftl's point was an excellent one. This forum tends to want lynch active players for slips that weren't really slips."
I know that day 2 will be different, and with more information, many of the pseudo-slips are more likely to be actual slips. But it feels like lots of people are treating this with day 1 attitude and haven't made use of the past information we have when determining if Munch feels scummy or actually is being scummy (eHalcyon has looked at the past stuff, i know, kudos to that action--but he still needs to lay off of his Munch tunnelling). I love that anyone is reading into my defending Munch as a scumpairing. Yeah, that's a real bang-up job of scum that we're doing. "Hey, I know, I'll be all caustic and make people upset at me, while you post vague and easily misconstrued posts so that everyone gets a bad feeling about you. Then instead of doing something rational and cutting ties with you and trying to gain cred, I'll just shout at the top of my lungs that you're town hoping that people believe me"
This little wagon on Munch just feels like day 1 blundering instead of the day 2 calculated lynches that we should be able to pull off. I really feel like people aren't paying enough attention to eHalcyon's post about off-wagon people. To use his words:
"We have all this info and nobody wants to use it. Come on people."
So next post will have info and me making use of it.
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Ok, I made a reread of my enormous summary document and pulled this on people's relations to grujah.
0th point:
I'm not good at reading into these things, but anybody who enjoys making meta-based arguments might find Grujah's list of players' metas in #253 interesting.
1st point
Watno gets town credit in my eyes for being an early person on Grujah's wagon but mostly because in addition to voting, he was one of the players (along with eevee) who was initially bringing grujah's lurkiness to people's eyes. In posts 744 and 749 watno points out that Grujah's lurking was one of the more extreme examples of it.
DSell is added to a suspicious list, based on watno's argument in #749. What happened was in #745 Dsell analyzes Axxle's thin posting record saying that this was out of character to post such minor content.
Also, Dsell, dont you think the behaviour your pointing out with Axxle is even more extreme with Grujah?
So Dsell points out a common characteristic of Axxle but doesn't focus on Grujah enough to realize that that description also fits scum-grujah. In #750 Dsell says he'll have to reread grujah. Did that reread ever come? I definitely missed it if it did.
Cuzz also gains minor town cred in #758 for pointing out that Grujah's lurking really stands out. All of these actions were long before real steam picked up on Grujah.
2nd point
Grujah in post #784 points out oddness in cayvie's proclamation that she'll lay low on voting, and also that ashersky struck a weird nerve for being wagon-jumpy-friendly. He then votes cayvie instead of ashersky. Not that either case was super solid, but it's important to note who he does vote for and who grujah doesn't vote for. (Can anybody collect his voting record for us?) After ehunt disagrees with grujah's interpretation of cayvie (787) grujah immediately unvotes (788). It strikes me as very strange to vote/unvote so quickly, based solely on this
I think your vote is based on a misinterpretation of cayvie's post about her role. I don't want to argue the finer points of this.
In post #933 after Voltaire analyzes everyone's information contribution (grujah was in 2nd to last category) cayvie says that she would also put grujah in a low-information-output category. I'm really not sure which way I lean on cayvie in relation to grujah. "Suspicious but not sold on it" is probably the best descriptor. In regards to ashersky, grujah comes back in #972 to say this
What can I do for you guys? Comment on what? I got a few spare hours right now.
Ashersky who did seem scummy seem less on re-scim, he did jump on two wagons (O and shareye, and shareye was one of misguided wagons ever) but I don't find it as bad as it seemed right away, he seems as scummy as any other who voted on shareye based on sarcasm. Sigh.
and this feels much more suspicious to me. A thin case on somebody saying their "odd" but no vote, and then saying "oh, i was wrong, i guess that wasn't suspicious...sigh" feels like grujah's trying to slightly distance asher from himself without threatening asher's safety based on more piercing arguments. Those are the words that stood out to me here.
3rd point:
This is really a minor point because I don't get a read on it in either direction, but in #897 ftl discussed some of the people being accused including grujah:
eHalcyon: hm. I don't see what Voltgloss is seeing in eHalc's posts. The cult-hunting instead of mafia-hunting? Slight scumread based on that.
ehunt: Definite townread. FoS at his wagon: " Jotheonah, TheMunch, Eevee, O". Though that was really early.
Grujah: started the discussion of metas with his list. Then vanished. No read, but he's definitely lurky. Scumread then.
yuma: Started an O wagon based on a threat of his from a previous game. Voted cayvie because of misunderstanding her post, and this turned into a yuma wagon? Yuma explains but gets wagoned anyway. I *really* like his questions-for-lurkers thing. Townread.
Watno: was a little all over the place for a while; after rereading his posts I didn't actually get a good idea of who he suspected, other than I guess shraeye for a bit. No read.
shraeye: kerfuffle with actilurking. He's on the yuma wagon for a bit and argues there. Joins the O wagon. Joins the O wagon. Joins the O wagon. Joins the O wagon. ...continues arguing for other people despite constantly voting O, which confuses me. He also skips between being sarcastic and abrasive and being helpful. Idunno, I get the impression that everyone thinks he's town, but I don't agree, it could be good Mafia play. Hedging by voting for O while arguing against others. Though I guess O attracted a lot of that. Either a scumread or a townread, not quite sure yet.
...
Or, maybe not. Vote: shraeye .
I don't get any read either way based off of that.
I'm pretty sure that this is what Munch is referring to when he says that our lynch wasn't so informational. I mean, we can look all we want at people on/off wagon or whatever, but this is basically every interaction grujah had with various people on day 1. (I omitted all the glooble/grujah or grujah/eevee action since i'm pretty sure we should all have a "town read" on those dudes)
Summary:
Here are people I saw interacting with Grujah: watno, Dsell, cuzz, cayvie, ehunt, ashersky, ftl, voltaire
These are the people I'm suspicious of because of grujah-interactions: ashersky (quite a bit), Dsell (slightly)
these are the people I have town reads on because of grujah-interactions: watno (medium-strong), cuzz (slight-med), voltaire (slight)
here's a weird interaction that I can't seem to figure out which way I lean on: cayvie
here's some interactions that felt purely neutral: ehunt, ftl
Based off this, I will
vote: ashersky
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Vote Count 2.3
ashersky (3) -- Cuzz, watno, shraeye
TheMunch (2) -- eHalcyon, ftl
Not Voting (16) -- sparky5856, Insomniac, Dsell, Jotheonah, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, Cayvie, Yuma, theorel, Morgrim7, Galzria, Captain_Frisk, ehunt, TheMunch, ashersky
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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Hah, hilarity. I was surprised to see that there were already votes on ashersky, I don't remember any cases on him yet. Checking now.
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Skimming ashersky's posts very quickly, haven't skimmed them all yet but I don't see a whole lot of beefy content from him, I saw a whole lot of "sorry that I haven't been here"; that reminds me of MY behavior when I'm scum.
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Nice analysis shraeye! I don't think you're giving this part enough credit:
DSell is added to a suspicious list, based on watno's argument in #749. What happened was in #745 Dsell analyzes Axxle's thin posting record saying that this was out of character to post such minor content.
Also, Dsell, dont you think the behaviour your pointing out with Axxle is even more extreme with Grujah?
So Dsell points out a common characteristic of Axxle but doesn't focus on Grujah enough to realize that that description also fits scum-grujah. In #750 Dsell says he'll have to reread grujah. Did that reread ever come? I definitely missed it if it did.
Combined with his scummy offwagon, pro-Morgrim position at the end of the day, I think I'm comfortable with a Vote: Dsell. I see him scumhunting with a Grujah-shaped blindspot.
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@shraeye #1650
I don't put much stock in your point 1. It's easy to call out lurking. As scum, I generally would be very happy to point out how all of my teammates are suspicion in some way. The key is not making a big deal of it. Pointing it out when there is no momentum on a case gives an iota of town cred in my books. Actually pushing through the case means more to me.
Point 2 is fair and point 3 is null.
I disagree with your thought that the lynch isn't informational. Review my initial big post of today (#1585, and some in subsequent posts, especially #1590). I point out lots of interactions, many of which you have missed. And still almost nobody has commented on any of it. You keep on accusing me of tunneling, but I respectfully disagree. I picked on a bunch of players for scummy interaction with Grujah (that is, mild defenses and such) and suspicious behaviour when the wagon picked up speed (trying to slow down the wagon, trying to start a different one on a terrible target).
I am not at all tunnelling on Munch. I looked at many players and Munch is simply the one who comes out looking scummiest. shraeye, what is it about Munch's play that gives you a town read? Galzria expressed town read on him on day 1 but now he says that town read is gone. You say you have a town read on him too. For what reason? I don't see any.
I guess I'll respond to #1608 now, since people don't seem to want to speak up.
I'm not sure who was taking Munch's post as an "attack on the wagoners", but I did not go that far. My point was that Munch was analysing the wagon and complaining there was no info to be gleaned... and that's wrong. There is tons of info, and analysing the wagon is the wrong way to get at it. You look around the wagon. I already did a bunch of it. But Munch's sentiment seems to be that those on the wagon should get no town cred at all, and that's plain backwards thinking.
I agree that the "he's not happy" argument is dumb.
On the third paragraph -- shraeye, you're wrong. You just put together a post looking at the subtlety of Grujah's interaction with ashersky. He voted and then unvoted, then later said that ashersky seemed less scummy on re-read. You called it distancing, and said it was suspicious. But note that Grujah didn't just say, "ashersky totally doesn't look scummy anymore!" Grujah said "ashersky looks less scummy... only as scummy as other people who did slightly suspicious thing."
This is exactly what Munch was doing in the post I quoted. "He doesn't seem so scummy, though I don't have a townread either". It's distancing. It's subtle defense, but it's still defense.
To give another example -- in MVI I was Mafia with Ozle and Captain_Frisk. Early on day 2, Ozle came under fire. It was pretty bad. Did I jump to his defense? No. But I tried to ease suspicion on him. I tried to make him seem less scummy, tried to come up with explanations for weird behaviour. But I always prefaced that I wasn't sure, that I could be wrong. I never expressed a strong town read on him, but I tried to cast doubt on arguments against him. Closer to the end, when it really looked like Ozle was going to go down, I changed my tune. But I was reluctant and I still acted very cautious about it. (It all got very messy soon after, but that part of the story isn't relevant.)
Does all that sound familiar? It should. I'll let you connect the dots.
I take issue with your last paragraph. Have you actually read through my posts, or are you just shying away because it's bigger than most? I say again, I have not been tunnelling. I have looked at many other players, presented plenty of info, and the result of my analysis leaves Munch looking the most suspicious. He is not the only one I have mentioned.
I don't know why you are making it seem like Munch and I are at each others' throats. As far as I can see, Munch has not levelled any case against me. That's because there isn't one. But there is a strong case against Munch, which I have presented.
Likewise, you call my arguments
the longest "you mischaracterized me" "No, you mischaracterized me" "NO, you mischaracterized me!" hissy-fit i've ever been a witness to.
I disagree completely. Munch has not only mischaracterized me, he has also done the same to several other players. Several times. Even after they clarified themselves. I also don't believe I have misrepresented Munch's statements. Can you point out examples? The only one I can think of is the Grujah defense, and I have explained clearly why I interpret it as such.
I am all for looking at other players. I have provided a good starting point for examining the info we have based on the wagon. People have not yet to take it up or pursue those cases. For myself, I think there is an excellent case against Munch and I'm not going to drop it because someone says they have a town read on him without any backing reasons.
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Nice analysis shraeye! I don't think you're giving this part enough credit:
DSell is added to a suspicious list, based on watno's argument in #749. What happened was in #745 Dsell analyzes Axxle's thin posting record saying that this was out of character to post such minor content.
Also, Dsell, dont you think the behaviour your pointing out with Axxle is even more extreme with Grujah?
So Dsell points out a common characteristic of Axxle but doesn't focus on Grujah enough to realize that that description also fits scum-grujah. In #750 Dsell says he'll have to reread grujah. Did that reread ever come? I definitely missed it if it did.
Combined with his scummy offwagon, pro-Morgrim position at the end of the day, I think I'm comfortable with a Vote: Dsell. I see him scumhunting with a Grujah-shaped blindspot.
I actually don't remember if I did a reread of Grujah at that time. I know that I did later on. I remember what I was thinking in the case between Axxle and Grujah, though. I thought Axxle was more suspicious because it seemed that he was truly lurking, i.e. around but not posting much content, whereas it seemed that Grujah was just V/LA "lurking." I'm a lot more suspicious of the former, obviously.
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Vote Count 2.3
ashersky (3) -- Cuzz, watno, shraeye
TheMunch (2) -- eHalcyon, ftl
Not Voting (16) -- sparky5856, Insomniac, Dsell, Jotheonah, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, Cayvie, Yuma, ibgtennis, Morgrim7, Galzria, Captain_Frisk, ehunt, TheMunch, ashersky
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
ibgtennis probably shouldn't be included in the vote count?
I agree with joth that Dsell deserves more investigation (PPE: he just posted something).
I disagree with those who say Munch doesn't look bad. Dude has been hedging like crazy, which is a newb-tell and a scum-tell. I understand we have other things to look at, but hedging deserves proper investigation.
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I've actually got a few hours to kill, so I'm doing a hyper-focused reread on a handful of people. If I don't get a post out today, I'll at least fill out a chart for me to have reads off of, so I can get a post out in the near future. People I want to focus on:
Dsell, Shraeye, Munch, Voltaire, Cayvie, Frisk, eHunt and Ashersky.
It's a mix of people that I either have scum reads on, or null reads on. It's not exhaustive by any means, and the people not listed aren't going under my radar - but they either haven't stuck out to me, or I don't recall them being heavily involved with Grujah, which is where my focus is around. If I have more time after hitting those 8, I'll move on to others - but that's where I'm starting (not in that order most likely).
My thoughts are that in a standard setup, scum make up 2/9 of the setup. Expanded out, that would be 6/27. We had 25 players, so 6 still seems reasonable. If there are multiple scum teams, that number could certainly go up (because scum teams have a history of blowing each other up), and I certainly think there is going to be a SK. ((Note: I know for a fact that Robz has deleted/modified posts from pre-game. Does anybody else recall him making a statement that it was likely to be one large ~6 man scumteam, and that he didn't want to do multiple? Or was I just dreaming that up?)). Either way, I'm going to go off a rough estimate of 7 scum in 25 players. We now have 3 town dead, and 1 scum. That leaves me with about 6 scum in 21 players left alive. Given the splits we have on the Grujah wagon, I think we can get ourselves pretty good odds on finding another scum.
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Galzria: The only significant edit I made to the intro posts was to change the order of night events resolutions (Items went from happening last to happening first). I never gave public info that would suggest how many scum teams there are, or of what size they would be. I suspect you are recalling a conversation, possibly in the MIX thread after the game ended, where some people weighed in on whether 2 scum teams, or 1 big scum team, would be more fun for future large games.
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Galzria: The only significant edit I made to the intro posts was to change the order of night events resolutions (Items went from happening last to happening first). I never gave public info that would suggest how many scum teams there are, or of what size they would be. I suspect you are recalling a conversation, possibly in the MIX thread after the game ended, where some people weighed in on whether 2 scum teams, or 1 big scum team, would be more fun for future large games.
That's possible. Like I said, that particular reference I wasn't sure about. I just know that there are a handful of pre-game posts that you made that got deleted, and then put into the original post in condensed form. Some of what was in the original posts got left out of being added in though, so I wasn't sure if that had been part of it. You're probably correct that the particular conversation I'm recalling came from somewhere else though (or I just imagined the whole thing. Too much Mafia. >.>)
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Imma try to make this short so that we can get past this issue and move onto real ones.
@shraeye #1650
I disagree with your thought that the lynch isn't informational.
you misread "I'm pretty sure that this is what Munch is referring to when he says that our lynch wasn't so informational".
Review my initial big post of today (#1585, and some in subsequent posts, especially #1590). I point out lots of interactions, many of which you have missed. And still almost nobody has commented on any of it.
#1590 was Munch's post? I missed those interactions since I was going only off of my summary document, which was written pre-crunch time. To comment outloud on your post: YoungNick's actions seem suspicious but feel like a drop in the bucket; this does put him in slight scum territory though. I did totally miss the points you made about Dsell and ashersky, which make them more suspicious to me than they became through #1650. Ashersky's only a bit, and Dsell's a lot. Now I'm considering a Dsell vote instead. I'm unsure how much the ftl-style analysis will gain us, but I can consider it as well. I still don't understand the Morg-meta argument, if you want to issue me a pass, whatever, but I fully take responsibility for my suspicions on him, which still exist.
I am not at all tunnelling on Munch. I looked at many players and Munch is simply the one who comes out looking scummiest. shraeye, what is it about Munch's play that gives you a town read? Galzria expressed town read on him on day 1 but now he says that town read is gone. You say you have a town read on him too. For what reason? I don't see any.
I realize you are looking at other people too, but really a disproportionate amount of time seems focused on Munch. Like every post where you write up a list of people, Munch features. And he gets Munch-only posts as well. I can believe that you aren't trying to tunnel, but let me assure you that from the outside it definitely looks that way to me. Munch has been reading the entire game like a new town player. He has tried to be helpful, but gets derailed whenever suspicion gets thrown at him. It's hard in our first Mafia game not to worry about getting mislynched when a few votes get placed on you; Munch doesn't seem super great with his words, and often stumbles in his defenses. People jump on those stumbles as "scumslips" and create more suspicion. So Munch defends more and makes more verbal stumbles. So the cycle continues. Now people point to his "consistent weird vibe". But looking at all his arguments and trying to make sense of them, I don't see him ever giving any reasons that are scummy reasons. Just honest reasons that are poorly explained. I've tried to clarify his posts as I townily interpret them from time to time, and have picked up the "scumbuddy" title for that, ok cool. But nothing Munch has done has deviated at all from the newbie-tries-hard-but-isn't-that-articulate-townie. Our suspicion of him have caused him to spend a disproportionate amount of time defending himself, so now the whole town is divided into those who believe him and those who don't. I suggest giving him a small 2 RL-day pass, see what sort of content/analysis he can add when he's not getting suspected 4+ times per page, and then decide later in day 2 if we still have the same read on him. Even if nothing changes, at least we'll have better reasons for suspecting him than "defends badly".
I'm not sure who was taking Munch's post as an "attack on the wagoners", but I did not go that far.
definitely yuma, and maybe joth.
On the third paragraph -- shraeye, you're wrong. You just put together a post looking at the subtlety of Grujah's interaction with ashersky. He voted and then unvoted, then later said that ashersky seemed less scummy on re-read. You called it distancing, and said it was suspicious. But note that Grujah didn't just say, "ashersky totally doesn't look scummy anymore!" Grujah said "ashersky looks less scummy... only as scummy as other people who did slightly suspicious thing."
This is exactly what Munch was doing in the post I quoted. "He doesn't seem so scummy, though I don't have a townread either". It's distancing. It's subtle defense, but it's still defense.
The reason this makes me suspect ashersky but not Munch is that Grujah is known scum and Munch is not. So "unknown-alignment new-player hedges on a position over grujah is much less of an issue for me than known-scum grujah hedges on his position over ashersky. The part I've bolded from your quote is actually one of the main reasons that I suspect asher even more! Grujah toned down his "scumread" on ashersky, but didn't remove it. So they're still "enemies" but don't worry because asher isn't bad enough for anyone to vote for.
Likewise, you call my arguments
the longest "you mischaracterized me" "No, you mischaracterized me" "NO, you mischaracterized me!" hissy-fit i've ever been a witness to.
I disagree completely. Munch has not only mischaracterized me, he has also done the same to several other players. Several times. Even after they clarified themselves. I also don't believe I have misrepresented Munch's statements. Can you point out examples? The only one I can think of is the Grujah defense, and I have explained clearly why I interpret it as such.
You're allowed to disagree completely, but I still believe everything I said. I already pointed out examples and you can search for them. I'm uninterested in posting them again, because my goal is not just to "prove you are wrong" or "paint you with suspicion". I don't care if you think you're tunnelling Munch or not, or if you think he's got a case on you or not. I still stand by my statement that you are both town.
This is beginning to look like the point-by-point absurdity that you and Munch were posting back and forth on day 1. You're allowed to respond if you want, but don't be surprised if I drop this fruitless debate in favor of continuing actual scumhunting.
tl;dr. Well do it. I'm funny sometimes, and cogent often. Here's the sparknotes anyway:
shray find's eHalc's case on asher/dsell good--scumreads on both. youngNick less so. shraeye defends Munch again. gets bored of continuing town-on-town arguments since shray still thinks eHalc is town.
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Your tone in that post sure seems like you're agreeing with Munch:
I'm pretty sure that this is what Munch is referring to when he says that our lynch wasn't so informational. I mean, we can look all we want at people on/off wagon or whatever, but this is basically every interaction grujah had with various people on day 1. (I omitted all the glooble/grujah or grujah/eevee action since i'm pretty sure we should all have a "town read" on those dudes)
But if that's not what you meant, then mea culpa.
Oops, not #1590 but #1604, which was a response to 1590. I assumed you had continued updating your personal document -- you implied it in your post when you said "this is basically every interaction grujah had with various people on day 1".
So you are giving Munch the newbie pass. I suppose that's fair. But I've kept that in mind myself and it doesn't cover enough, imo. I also don't think he has spent so much time defending himself, but whatever. He already got plenty of days pass from Mafia Day 1, so I don't see why we should give him a longer pass. Suspicion on him does not stop him from making other analyses. He already had a go at it earlier, though I stated why I felt the analysis was going in the wrong direction. I would still be interested in his opinions on others (likewise, I am interested on opinions from everyone else). And the case on Munch is much more than "defends badly" -- if that's all you're getting out of my arguments, you are not reading them at all. It's much more about behaviour.
The reason this makes me suspect ashersky but not Munch is that Grujah is known scum and Munch is not. So "unknown-alignment new-player hedges on a position over grujah is much less of an issue for me than known-scum grujah hedges on his position over ashersky. The part I've bolded from your quote is actually one of the main reasons that I suspect asher even more! Grujah toned down his "scumread" on ashersky, but didn't remove it. So they're still "enemies" but don't worry because asher isn't bad enough for anyone to vote for.
It works both ways, shraeye. But the point was that Munch DID defend Grujah. It was not an overt defense, but it was a defense. Whether you find it suspicious or not is up to you. From my perspective, it looks a lot like how I tried to play scum in MVI.
Look, I think the biggest problem I'm having today is this idea that the wagon on Grujah is not useful. Several people have complained about how it lacks info (the players that stand out on this front are Ins and Munch, and you've hinted at that feeling too -- can't remember if others expressed similar sentiments). That is so, so very wrong. The wagon gives TONS of info, and it's weird that players who had been pro-info lynch are not now contributing to interpreting all this data, or looking at the least productive areas (i.e. "who had the weakest reason for successfully lynching scum?").
Seriously though, why are so few others giving analyses? Busy IRL? It's like everyone is lurking even though there is lots to talk about now. If it were only a few of you, I'd find it suspicious. As it is, it's just very frustrating.
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Seriously though, why are so few others giving analyses? Busy IRL? It's like everyone is lurking even though there is lots to talk about now. If it were only a few of you, I'd find it suspicious. As it is, it's just very frustrating.
For me -
1. Yuma took a useful leadership role yesterday and has been largely absent (for previously explained IRL reasons) today.
2. Digging up cases on the players I don't understand is such a chore and I'm feeling lazy. A consequence of the laziness is that it's very tempting just to vote for one of the more vocal off-wagoners, i.e. munch or shraeye, especially because I'm pretty convinced of ehalc's townitude, but I feel like on principle this is a mistake (it gives the lurking off-wagoners a pass). Anyway, vote: Insomniac for now (my case is above); I will do my homework on munch and shraeye over the weekend, and then figure out the others.
3. Yesterday I had extra information to go on (I was pretty certain Glooble was town because of the wine-business). Today I have none.
4. I get way more into the game when I am on the hotseat. (I am not saying y'all should put me on the hotseat).
Really 2 and 4 (laziness and apathy) are biggest. Sorry.
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Another reason why it might seem like I am on Munch's case all the time is simply because others are not offering cases of their own. I have gone forth and examined, and I have presented a case. It would be excellent if others could go forth and examine and present their cases, so we have more things to discuss. Props to those who have done so already (ehunt has a bit of a case on Ins, shraeye posted some thoughts above -- did anyone else really make a case?) but there needs to be more discussion.
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Props to those who have done so already (ehunt has a bit of a case on Ins, shraeye posted some thoughts above -- did anyone else really make a case?) but there needs to be more discussion.
Word. I'm going to take a break in posting until I hear more arguments from more people. Off the top of my head, I don't recall much Axxle, Voltaire, watno, morgrim. Maybe they said something i missed, maybe there's others i missed. But hey, you four, make a case against someone.
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It's interesting doing this reread by spreadsheet. I won't be able to post it, but if others wish to follow this design, I find it quite helpful:
Across the top I list each player, with their names colored to match faction association (So O/Eevee/Glooble/myself are Green, Grujah is red). People I'm suspicious of I make orange.
Underneath each persons name I list their posts by #. I fill the background of each cell using light red if the post associated with known scum, light green if associated with known town, and for those I'm researching, light orange if the post just felt scummy to me.
At the end, I've got a visual representation of how people have interacted with known alignments, down to the posts in which they did so. I could probably take it a step further to bold post #'s that contain votes, so that's easyto reference as well.
It's not perfect, and it takes a little time to produce, but it's leaving me feeling good about where people stand and how I feel about them. Unfortunately, I've been dragged away by the GF, so it's still a work in progress for me. But I encourage others to do something similar. In a game this size it's really helping me sort things out.
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Seriously though, why are so few others giving analyses? Busy IRL? It's like everyone is lurking even though there is lots to talk about now. If it were only a few of you, I'd find it suspicious. As it is, it's just very frustrating.
For me -
1. Yuma took a useful leadership role yesterday and has been largely absent (for previously explained IRL reasons) today.
2. Digging up cases on the players I don't understand is such a chore and I'm feeling lazy. A consequence of the laziness is that it's very tempting just to vote for one of the more vocal off-wagoners, i.e. munch or shraeye, especially because I'm pretty convinced of ehalc's townitude, but I feel like on principle this is a mistake (it gives the lurking off-wagoners a pass). Anyway, vote: Insomniac for now (my case is above); I will do my homework on munch and shraeye over the weekend, and then figure out the others.
3. Yesterday I had extra information to go on (I was pretty certain Glooble was town because of the wine-business). Today I have none.
4. I get way more into the game when I am on the hotseat. (I am not saying y'all should put me on the hotseat).
Really 2 and 4 (laziness and apathy) are biggest. Sorry.
eHunt - Any chance to vote Insomniac is a must for eHunt. I've been talking eHunt so I don't see your case on me.
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Is it just me, or is Voltaire's last post on Sep. 25th (#1371)? The lynch happened in #1506 on the 26th. We unlocked on the 30th. We're now closing on 4 days since unlock. Is he under V/LA, or do we need a prod (or have I just missed him somehow? I'm searching by Username: Voltaire)?
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Maybe I am crossing the streams (on phone) but did he place out?
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Maybe I am crossing the streams (on phone) but did he place out?
Voltgloss was replaced by Sparky.
IbgTennis was replaced by Theorel.
Was Voltaire replaced out too and I missed it?
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he replaced out in RMM3
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i have a few theories as to why this day seems to be going more slowly
1) we lynched scum d1, so the scum are being extra cautious
2) we lynched scum d1! this ruins our usual D2 routine of attacking the players who were most vocally pushing for whichever townie got lynched d1.
3) d1 is dauntingly large to analyze. i'm gonna try a full reread tonight, with context. but it's big.
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1. Yuma took a useful leadership role yesterday and has been largely absent (for previously explained IRL reasons) today.
Yes, I am still very busy (starting rotations and our basement apartment flooded! super gross), but am able to keep up with reading new posts, but dont' really have time to go back and reread. Hopefully I will be able to do so over the weekend.
I will certainly respond to anything specifically addressed to me, or alluding to me as other cases have been, asap. But solid analysis may be a way off yet. However, given how successful our soft deadline was previously, I think it may be wise to implement another one. Yes we are down 4 people, but it will still be difficult to come to a solid majority with such a large group.
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I haven't posted much at all Day 2. I'll reread at least Day 2 and get back to you guys in a few hours.
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Personally, I am with most of the others here. The re-read terrifies me and it's not like I am drowning in free time anyway. I express my opinions but still struggle to get consistent reads in a game this big. I have said where I stand and until that changes or I have better reason, I feel I have little to contribute.
My feelings towards Munch are barely enough to warrant a vote. I still would like to hear more from ashersky. It's that simple.
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Warning: This post is HUGE! Read on at your own risk:
Halfway through with my listed 8 that I wanted to reread (Dsell, TheMunch, Frisk, Shraeye, Cayvie, Voltaire, eHunt, Ashersky). There's sooooo much stuff to go through.
Here's what I have so far though:
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Dsell:
He has cast his vote 5 times so far this game, on (in order): Joth (#204) - Morgrim (#216) - Axxle (#746) - Galzria (#1249) - Morgrim (#1468).
Only 1 of his votes is cast on someone I know to be town (myself), but his last vote on Morgrim happened during a time when the Grujah wagon was starting to take off - thus notably was NOT on confirmed scum.
The first quote that stuck out to me from Dsell was #268:
Also it's really true that I was extremely calculating as scum (I was in my second and third games, MIV and RMM1, respectively), but in a game this size there's too much content to analyze everything. I'm going to have to trust reads a bit more and look at specifics rather than the whole big picture, at least on day 1 and 2.
It reads to me like he's saying "In the past I've been calculating as scum, but this game is so large I won't be able to be that polished" - Basically, it's not an argument for why he's town, but rather why he'll play scum differently here than he has in the past.
The next post that really jumped out at me was #539:
Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.
Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.
But even 1 scum on his wagon on D1 means that he's (very likely) not scum.
Here, he's completely ignoring (intentionally?) the idea that there is a decent chance that we're dealing with two scum teams. "If X has scum on his wagon, then X must be town" just isn't a legitimate argument to be making D1. Yuma's wagon took off fast - absolutely. But with or without scum onboard speaks nothing to Yuma's alignment.
The next post is #750, where he directly responds to Watno asking about Grujah:
Also, Dsell, dont you think the behaviour your pointing out with Axxle is even more extreme with Grujah?
I'll have to reread everything he's written. Has he been active on the rest of the site?
Near as I can tell however, this re-read never occurred, so I can't really tell if Dsell was just appeasing the masses, or just never got around to it.
In post #1249, he makes his case against me, and places Ashersky as #2, Grujah as #3. This is despite never really making a case against Grujah up until this time - a relatively safe place to put a partner. In the very next post (#1250), he even says not to put much stock in the other two choices:
Also my second and third votes are really not that serious, so don't put much stock in them at this point.
While I'm willing to set aside the "making a case on a townie" (me) side of things, the lack of interest on a now confirmed scum is a little bit more suspicious.
Now is where it gets a little dicey for Dsell. Everything up until this point has been mild scumminess at most nothing major. But starting with post #1434, Dsell starts redirecting hard from Grujah:
Hmm.. vote: Glooble again, as I got no better.
Yuma is strangly mad at me for being inactive, but now it seems a sincere town mad more than faked scum mad, esp with this second to last post.
Read over recent events and give an opinion on them, please. You're here now -- you can contribute something.
I agree with this. We still have a little time, he's not our only option. I'm not sure Grujah is a great lynch today, guys.
#1468, right in the thick of things, falls back to Morgrim:
Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
#1473:
Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch? Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.
He fits the profile because he's done something that nobody likes. In some games, it's a scumslip or mistaken phrasing, in some games it's lying, in this game it's being almost totally silent. It's the kind of thing that scum isn't going to do day one because it's just a mistake they just don't need to make, and they'll monitor their posts more closely to make sure they don't.
He's done something that's really indefensible, which gives everyone on the wagon the excuse to say, "Well he did X, so lynching him seemed like the right choice!" And what do you say to that? It's the kind of thing scum just doesn't (or hasn't) done Day 1 precisely because it's the kind of thing that gets people lynched.
#1474:
You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.
I didn't say it was good scumplay. Grujah did come back though, right when heat picked up on him. I'm pretty sure I mentioned that earlier. He didn't speak up until he had picked up several votes.
But my point is, don't you think scum Grujah would have responded sooner? Because it's way too dangerous to let a wagon form on you this late in the day as scum, and pretty much everyone has said something at some point about him lurking too much.
And #1480:
Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.
What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch? Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.
He fits the profile because he's done something that nobody likes. In some games, it's a scumslip or mistaken phrasing, in some games it's lying, in this game it's being almost totally silent. It's the kind of thing that scum isn't going to do day one because it's just a mistake they just don't need to make, and they'll monitor their posts more closely to make sure they don't.
He's done something that's really indefensible, which gives everyone on the wagon the excuse to say, "Well he did X, so lynching him seemed like the right choice!" And what do you say to that? It's the kind of thing scum just doesn't (or hasn't) done Day 1 precisely because it's the kind of thing that gets people lynched.
So you're arguing that it's OK to be totally silent? That it's OK to lie?
If we don't lynch based on things that seem scummy, what do we lynch on? "Well he did X" is ALWAYS an available excuse. Should we never lynch then, since any valid reason for lynching also becomes an excuse if the lynchee flips town?
IMO, "he did X" is a good reason for people to vote for someone. It requires taking a stance. "Voting for him will give us info on others" is a way to avoid taking a stance, and a way to avoid any fallout if it's a mislynch, which is far better for scum. It's different from voting "because he did X".
My profile for "usual day 1 lynch" is "player who fudges some wording, which is subsequently exaggerated as a scumslip". Grujah hasn't done that.
PPE: I didn't realize that he had done that twice -- just saw it the most recent time. Looks even better to me now.
Well, it just comes down to whether we want to punish bad behavior or if we want to lynch the mafia. One is better for the meta, one is better for town in the current game. And actually, I'm not totally sure what the right answer is. Maybe it IS ok to use the Day 1 lynch to punish people for anti-town behavior. All I'm saying is that it hasn't worked in the past, which leads me to believe that he may not be our best choice for lynching scum today. I believe that our best chance for lynching scum requires an eye for much more subtle play. Still rereading though, those timings are indeed interesting to me.
Whew. That's a LOT of deflection. If Dsell ISN'T scum, then that is really quite rough for him. In post #1484, Joth votes for Grujah putting him to L-2. In the very next post, #1485, Dsell changes tunes a bit...:
Alright, after a reread of his posts, I'm warming up to a Grujah lynch. I'm going to leave my vote on Morgrim until tomorrow, though, to foster discussion and make sure that Grujah isn't hammered before we can discuss everything.
The question that really has to be asked, is whether or not Dsell was a scumbuddy trying to deflect up until the point in which it became clear that Grujah was going to go down - at which point he started seeing the light - or whether Dsell was simply a misguided townie who really felt like we were pursuing a lynch that followed the pattern of 10 other unsuccessful D1 lynches. There's no doubt that Dsell realized how bad this all looked, because he opened D2 straight up acknowledging it:
I'm just gonna look so scummy today because I tried to derail the Grujah wagon and pushed the Morgrim one some. All I can say is that I picked the wrong time to start questioning "the system" because the system finally worked for us.
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My overall verdict here is scummy. No doubt about it. However of the 4 people that I've read so far, he only ranks as scummy #2, not scummy #1, so I won't be putting my vote there. Still, I can't let his overall play slide by, so I am suspicious. The one thing Dsell has going for him, I won't mention at this time. It DOES lend him some town cred though - enough that I'm willing to consider the "misguided townie" rationale rather than the "redirecting scum" more than I might otherwise be willing to. Still, out of a scum rating of 100, he would land a solid 75.
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Captain Frisk:
Let's move on to a slightly easier person now. Take a break, if you will. Frisk has voted just 3 times this game, on (in order): TheMunch (#457) - Shraeye (#1053) - O (#1449)
Again, only one of his votes lands on somebody I know to be town (O), but again his last vote comes at a time when the Grujah wagon was taking off - so notably not only is on town, but it's not on scum.
To me, Frisk's first particularly scummy statement doesn't come until #922, when he sums up what's happened in the game up to that point by saying "Nothing at all":
Like c'mon now, I don't even have multiple pages of "Recent Unread Posts." I used to be able to get that up to three pages in less than 24 hours.
The rest of f.ds is totally silent. And then, ZM2 starts and ends while I am gone. And then MXII starts before I even have a chance to see the pre-game sign up.
Why is the only thing that is happening here Mafia? Dark Ages came out! Go play Dominion, sheesh. All of you.
I ask that for three days, no one posts, I won't ask robz to mod-prod anyone and then maybe we could be on equal footing. (Not a serious request.)
Just do what I did and skip it.
I think the summary is: nothing happened that you can't read later, and o may have been scummy.
Now you are caught up.
Now maybe there's some serious apathy going on, but c'mon. It's either really, really terrible town play to be ignoring the game for the first 1000 posts, or just scum not knowing that he doesn't need to really pay attention.
I recognize that bad does NOT equal scummy, but this caught my attention at the time, and did on the reread as well. This idea was just SO bad - it reminds me of Insomniac in BMV as his role of Jotheonah. In the Scum QT he said something like "I can't believe I got the whole town to take orders from scum - that was awesome" - Well, that's how I felt about CF's post #926:
Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
After that however, nothing really jumped out until post #1449, where CF voted for O despite the growning wagon on Grujah and his (imo) growing and apparent scumminess:
Vote: O - for not voting this close to deadline.
O's a strange fellow, so I never feel confident in my reads.
Secondary: Voltaire - for pushing that we all push secondary / tertiary votes. This feels like scum trying to give themselves an out to steer away from town consensus.
Tertiary: Shraeye - reasons given during my initial vote.
And that's it. CF has had the fewest posts of everybody that I've looked at so far, and far too many of those posts have said... nothing. It's very, very hard to distinguish between this CF and scum CF of the last 1001 games, so I'm really, really wary on this front. However, his scumminess certainly isn't overwhelming, and he's probably #3 of my 4 reads so far. Out of 100, he's probably sitting at 60 (50 is neutral, fwiw). CF really, really needs to start participating more. I want to believe that he's town, and I want to believe he can be a real boon - but I just haven't seen it this game.
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Voltaire:
Voltaire is my towniest read so far out of the 4. He's voted 6 times this game, on (in order): O (#374) - igbtennis (#461) - Yuma (#504) - Captain_Frisk (#931) - Ashersky (#1097) - Jotheonah (#1175)
Once more, only 1 vote on a confirmed townie, however it was his very first post of the game, and was admittedly RVS. Here, his last vote is on Jotheonah, but was placed before NOT voting Grujah was a scummy action.
The most suspicious exchanges that Voltaire had - to me - was in the mid 400's, where he made things *really* confusing by saying Eevee multiple times when he meant Cayvie... and then I remember myself in M-VI, and I realize that those mistakes read really, really townie to me for some strange reason... ::) Post #491:
Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
That's... weird...
really really weird.... vote: cayvie
Wug? And here I was writing a "cayvie is probably town" note!
Yuma, why do you think that looks scummy? Same to eHalc if that's what you meant.
Because it's bad town play if you're town and it's obvious so you must be scum...
...which I don't actually think makes sense, so no vote from me, but really, Fos: Eevee.
And Post #493:
for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.
Mmmmm I don't like this one bit. Let's not compound a mistake. Eevee, shhhhhhh!
In both of these cases, he said "Eevee", but meant "Cayvie" - and in that perspective, what he said is a lot less scummy. He's basically telling Cayvie not to let people role-fish for more information. Cayvie obviously said something in relation to her role that she felt people should be aware of. If she wanted to say more, she would have. I haven't reread Cayvie yet, so I won't speak to how I feel about the Cayvie situation as a whole, but specifically relating to Voltaire, I find the mixup in the names (and the confusion it caused afterward) to be distinctly townie. Scum wouldn't be so careless. ;)
The next quote that stood out to me was #538, which is actually embedded in a quote under my Dsell section. It's regarding the fact that Voltaire is currently (at that time) voting for Yuma, yet thinks that there is likely one scum on the wagon:
Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.
I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.
Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.
At this time, we really hadn't talked about the idea that there might be multiple scum teams, so this statement either A) assumes that there are (it doesn't read that way to me), or B) doesn't make a lot of sense, because it means he's voting for somebody he thinks is town. Seeing has he shortly thereafter claims that he is happy with his vote on Yuma, B) is kinda out of the window. This means that Voltaire was banking on A) for this quote to make sense... and well, I don't think that he's WRONG, I just think that it's a little odd that he would naturally make this assumption without actually making this argument. Makes me slightly concerned that he may BE part of a second scum team. Still, it's a very light argument imo, and doesn't come close to putting a dent in the overall town read I have from Voltaire across all his posts.
The last post that stood out to me from Voltaire as a little bit scummy is #638:
OK, looks like Voltaire went offline before reading the question I just asked. But anyway, vote: Voltaire.
[snip]
PPE: voltaire is back but seems to confirm that what I read is what he meant by "just come out with it, man!" No, I wasn't describing you. But he says that someone else hinted (besides insom) that he was particularly scummy among the yuma-wagon. I don't remember that; if you find that it will justify your paranoia to me.
Insom jumps on me at 509, Axxle says he was going to find me scummy due to the cayvie/Eevee mixup in 517 (but doesn't after I explain). I read you today posting about this, then sure enough, Insom repeats his claim. It's just me liking to avoid being the D1 lynch, because what fun is that? But it's good for the town. No biggie.
As for another poster, looks like it was Axxle. What you're seeing is me supressing OMGUS (see: the whole "us" debacle in ZM1) after my scumhunting on Yuma starts to draw votes at me. Sometimes I fire off short, sarcastic posts and I've been trying to curb that as not helpful, to town (or, less importantly, my own odds of living). From your earlier comments on limited posting to more substantive areas, I'd take it you agree. Perhaps not with me, but the instinct.
In particular here, the second paragraph reads a little bit like scum admitting to bad behaviour, and that he's making a concerted effort to contain and change that before he costs himself and his team. I don't know, it just didn't read as very genuine to me. But it certainly isn't what I would consider to be a "case" for being scum.
All in all, there just wasn't much here that started flashing lights at me. The biggest knock I have against him is that he's been so completely absent. He missed the Grujah lynch, so I don't know how he really would've felt about it going in, and he hasn't been back since then. Most of his early game though really struck me as town. Certainly there were times where he wasn't clear in what he was saying, but it did look to be town searching for scum. Out of a scale of 100, he's probably sitting at 45 for me right now. It would probably be 40 (or lower) if he was actually around. Still, I DO read what he's done as town.
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This is already a fricken' BOOK. I really do apologize. I'm going to make my case on my biggest scum read in a new post so it doesn't get buried in this mammoth. It'll take me awhile to compile though, and I need to grab dinner first.
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Some people have called me out for being super hedgy today and for that I apologize; I honestly am not trying to be hedgy and I do have opinions but perhaps the way I am going about saying them is overly negative and as such they are not the most receptive arguments. So I want to try to sum up my stance thus far in a way that is as coherent and concrete as possible.
I started off the day voting for joth. I voted for him because he had very hastily pushed attention off wagon without giving any reason as to why. This was not because I disliked the idea of looking off wagon, but because I thought that the way he went about expressing his idea was scummy. However, I did unvote once I was satisfied that he had given enough of a reason to justify himself.
After this was cleared up, I moved on to actually develop my own opinion about the on/off wagon debate. I was noticing that some people were catagorically giving immediate town cred to everyone on the Grujah wagon just because he flipped scum. I feel this is irresponsible. This is not to say that no one is deserving of towncred on the Grujah wagon, in fact I tried to make it a point that I did feel that some were deserving. These were people that I felt actually gave some kind of reason for voting, namely eHalcyon, Eevee, ftl, and joth. For everyone else on the wagon, I wasn't trying to attack you for being on the wagon, thats just silly. I was just trying to say that I dont have a read just given your participation on the wagon.
With examining the wagon "complete" I would say that I was prepared to also look off wagon. I could see why this is confusing or missed given that I had voted for joth after he pushed looking off wagon, and then I preceded to look at the wagon. However, I dont think its particularly unreasonable for me to actually look at the wagon after saying "not everyone deserves town cred" and then decide who to actually give the town cred to; I just could have made this argument clearer.
As for the HUGE post Galzria made, I really really like his case on Dsell. Maybe Galzria is just very persuasive but I think this is a strong case. I know I've been called out for defending grujah but me going "sorry guys I dont have a read" is nothing like the evidence put forth by Galzria here. Vote: Dsell
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Vote: Dsell
Try bolding it to make sure it is noticed.
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Vote: Dsell
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The only thing about Galz' case on me that I would argue is that the post where I say "I'm warming up to a grujah lynch" was after Galz posted about Grujah coming and defending himself after people voted for him. So it was not that I saw the writing on the wall and tried to make myself look better (I would have just voted for him if that were the case), it was just that evidence came up that I had not seen before.
But other than that, I do realize that my position is not good at all. I'll look back over day 1 and day 2 looking especially at the off-wagon people and do some analysis from my perspective too.
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The only thing about Galz' case on me that I would argue is that the post where I say "I'm warming up to a grujah lynch" was after Galz posted about Grujah coming and defending himself after people voted for him. So it was not that I saw the writing on the wall and tried to make myself look better (I would have just voted for him if that were the case), it was just that evidence came up that I had not seen before.
But other than that, I do realize that my position is not good at all. I'll look back over day 1 and day 2 looking especially at the off-wagon people and do some analysis from my perspective too.
Well, and like I said, my general feeling is that despite the case, I believe you were more likely to be "misguided townie" and not "redirecting scumbuddy". At least, I think it's at least 50/50 on that alone. Still, I'm trying to present each case in it's entirety, regardless of how I feel.
My #1 scumread will have to wait until tomorrow though. I just don't have the energy to do another one of those posts tonight. Hint: It'll be on Munch (although his latest post read more town again to me, but... Eh, I'll still post up to what I had and then readjust from there if necessary).
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@Galz's big post:
- I think much of your case against Dsell is repeating what I post, but with actual quotes instead of just post numbers. :P
- Interesting thoughts on CF.
- Was post #491 a name mixup? His "Fos: Eevee" was in response to Eevee's post. If it was supposed to be reducing the vote to a FOS instead, why didn't he unvote? I am too lazy to click back and re-read right now, so maybe it was a mixup after all.
@Munch -- It would help a lot if you also looked off wagon. Unless I missed it, the only analysis you've done so far is ON the wagon, and it was largely downplaying the success of it.
@Galz again -- hm, I wonder if you have anything new to bring to the table that I haven't already mentioned. I hope so. Or maybe you'll just present it in a way that's easier for everyone to follow.
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All I can say is I would have to be pretty dumb to redirect THAT much from fellow scum on day 1.
Like I said before, "the system" worked for us this time. It just came at a time when I was trying to fight the system.
I'm gonna do some of my own analysis tomorrow but I would not be surprised if I end up sheeping Galz/eHal tomorrow on Munch. The only other thing I wanted to point out after some very cursory reading is that Captain_Frisk is the only person alive right now who ended the day with a vote on a confirmed townie (O).
Where is Morgrim? And the other people who've said nothing?
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All I can say is I would have to be pretty dumb to redirect THAT much from fellow scum on day 1.
Like I said before, "the system" worked for us this time. It just came at a time when I was trying to fight the system.
I'm gonna do some of my own analysis tomorrow but I would not be surprised if I end up sheeping Galz/eHal tomorrow on Munch. The only other thing I wanted to point out after some very cursory reading is that Captain_Frisk is the only person alive right now who ended the day with a vote on a confirmed townie (O).
Where is Morgrim? And the other people who've said nothing?
Fair point on the first, but there can be WIFOM.
I still don't think Grujah was looking like our regular day 1 mislynch. I explained that on day 1 when you made that argument.
Exploring the interactions with confirmed townies would be a good way to go. Someone should look into that.
Likewise, someone should figure out who has been lurking.
I would do these things but things are getting somewhat busier for me IRL, and there are also RMM3 things to take care of.
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i have a few theories as to why this day seems to be going more slowly
1) we lynched scum d1, so the scum are being extra cautious
2) we lynched scum d1! this ruins our usual D2 routine of attacking the players who were most vocally pushing for whichever townie got lynched d1.
3) d1 is dauntingly large to analyze. i'm gonna try a full reread tonight, with context. but it's big.
1 is interesting. Who is lurking?
2 should make it easier. It sure felt that way to me when I was writing my initial big post.
3 may be a factor, but you can start by reading the last IRL day or two, when Grujah wagon took off.
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Fair point on the first, but there can be WIFOM.
There could be WIFOM...or I could have been on the wagon and have pretty much no one suspecting me. But yes, I see what you're saying. I guess I see WIFOM (when used by scum, I mean) as a veil to hide behind when there is nothing better. End game, if the townies are somewhat clueless, you can run a WIFOM gambit and hope (or maybe give yourself at least a 50-50 shot) that they won't target you. But in this case, a veil is not needed to hide actions when there was a wall (the grujah wagon) to hide behind.
I imagine that one or more of his scumbuddies took that protection, and it'll definitely buy them some time, because something pretty radical would have to happen for me to consider lynching someone on the grujah wagon. I believe our chances of hitting scum off wagon are just so, so much better.
This is all considering just one scumteam. I have no idea if there's one or more (I was definitely coming from the perspective of just one in that quote Galzria posted...just wasn't thinking about it!), but clearly a member of an opposing scumteam would have no problem being on the grujah wagon. Now I'm kinda rambling because I need sleep. But basically there is probably scum on the wagon, but there has GOT to be scum off the wagon, and that's where we should look today.
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@Galz's big post:
- I think much of your case against Dsell is repeating what I post, but with actual quotes instead of just post numbers. :P
- Interesting thoughts on CF.
- Was post #491 a name mixup? His "Fos: Eevee" was in response to Eevee's post. If it was supposed to be reducing the vote to a FOS instead, why didn't he unvote? I am too lazy to click back and re-read right now, so maybe it was a mixup after all.
@Munch -- It would help a lot if you also looked off wagon. Unless I missed it, the only analysis you've done so far is ON the wagon, and it was largely downplaying the success of it.
@Galz again -- hm, I wonder if you have anything new to bring to the table that I haven't already mentioned. I hope so. Or maybe you'll just present it in a way that's easier for everyone to follow.
Well, to be fair, I'm not exactly working with new source material, am I?
It's not really repeating your case, as going through post-by-post myself and seeing that posts X, Y and Z all stand out. X, Y and Z are never going to change, so there's a good chance that if they stood out for you, they will for me to. My posts can either be presented as above, or "Dsell: What eHal said".
I couldn't quote you off the top of my head every post # you referenced, so maybe I am using the exact same ones. I don't know. I'm just trying to be exhaustive when I make my post, and hopefully in the process perhaps I find a nugget of something overlooked before.
Anyway, my point is that - if you felt you were complete in your research and cases... Then it should be unsurprising to you that someone going back and looking at the same material draws the same conclusions. One thing that I AM doing is taking each players votes overall, so we can see exactly if and when they voted for town/scum both. Complete interactions and timing will hopefully paint a brighter picture. Just don't expect anything shockingly new, you know?
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Galz, can you explain a little bit about how you decided to analyze those people?
Most of them were off the grujah wagon - so they naturally had suspicion, but you added eHunt from on the wagon.
The people you left off your list, but were also off the wagon were:
Insomniac
Young Nick
IGBTennis
Sparky
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Galz, can you explain a little bit about how you decided to analyze those people?
Most of them were off the grujah wagon - so they naturally had suspicion, but you added eHunt from on the wagon.
The people you left off your list, but were also off the wagon were:
Insomniac
Young Nick
IGBTennis
Sparky
I already did in a previous post - they're simply people that I've either had scum reads on, or completely null reads. I mentioned that the list wasn't exhaustive in that it didn't include every player, but I don't have time to sit down and do a post like that on every person, so I'm focusing on where I'm most uncomfortable with what I have - or have not - seen to this point. Being on or off the wagon had little bearing, although I am looking at each person through the filter of interactions with Grujah, noting other general scummy behaviour that I notice.
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I'm just impressed that you're tracking this game close enough to have notable scum reads on 8 different people.
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I'm just impressed that you're tracking this game close enough to have notable scum reads on 8 different people.
I don't. I have scum reads on a handful. The others I have complete null reads on. But I spent 4 hours on this thread last night, and only got through 4 of the 8 people I wanted to, and only got 3 write-ups in. Going over 20 people would take entirely too long (although I will continue to work to that end) - so I picked somewhere to start. If I get through those 8, I'll move on to others. But for now it seems more prudent to spend what time I DO have compiling information on people I know little about, or think have been scummy.
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I'm just impressed that you're tracking this game close enough to have notable scum reads on 8 different people.
And yes, I am following the game close enough to have a plethora of reads. Something I noted in my section on you that I wished you would seem to be doing as well, but haven't appeared to as of yet.
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Regarding looking offwagon vs on-wagon: While I think its very much possible that scum was on Grujahs wagon (both from his own as well as possible other scumteams), the main thing we have to consider here is that it's very likely that at least some scum players didn't vote for Grukah because thesy were hoping to prevent the lynch. Therefore, it makes sense to look for people who didn't vote Grujah for strange reasons or behaved strangly regarding his lynch in other ways.
Regarding the wine, I thin it's better to agree on not drinking (that seems less likely to have side effects). Apart from that, I agree with the way Galz propoases to handle it
Vote: ashersky for proposing no lynch as the Grujah wagon began to take off.
Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
WE LYNCHED SCUM D1 WOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, saw this coming once Grujah flipped. I will note that I was voting for a lynch, not "no-lynch" at day's end, so it wasn't like I was really pushing for it. I preferred lynching, and especially mafia! I've been in both games with D1 scum lynches now. Oh yeah!
I agree that joth trying to steer everyone away from the wagon is ultra-scummy, and will vote: joth as well. Especially since, of course, he was on the wagon, so it's a deflect away from himself.
Somehow I had missed this response to Cuzz vote. This defense doesn't make me feel bad with my vote. Basically "I dropped the idea when i noticed the lynch was inevitable and jumped on the wagon"
So I wanted to at least compile all of the voting reasons for the Grujah votes. Because ehunt voted so long about on Grujah, I have him listed that he didn't give a reason but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it was explained earlier, I just didn't bother hunting for it. I didn't quote people, I just copy pasted their responses and put them in quotes below. This was less work for me. Ok here it is:
Glooble Votes Grujah in 479 for "showing up, voting on me, and disappearing."
ehunt Votes Grujah in 1295 without giving a reason.
WAGON START:
1375: (Yuma) "I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah"
1386: (Galzria) "I agree. He was in one of my top 3, and we really should start looking to consolidate. Since my #1 choice (eHal) seems to be met with equal parts adamant opposition and slight consideration, it really doesn't seem to be a productive choice. So I'll vote where there we might get something going - the fact that it's not on a town-read makes it all the better for me."
1404: (eHal) "I think he has lurked hard, which is really unusual for him. He returns just when it starts to heat up for him, and his posts read scummy. This wagon has a decent chance of lift-off, and I have decent reads on most on the wagon so far (not sure of the vote count though). Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch."
1433: (Eevee) "Grujah's defence doesn't read genuine to me"
1445: (Morgrim) "because he is the most likely person to be lynched"
1479: (ftl) "I didn't realize that about the timing of his posts, that's pretty bad."
1484: (joth) "Galz (argument about post timing) has got me convinced too"
1495: (Axxle) "Yaaaay!" (he really wanted to hammer)
So that is a collection of all the voting reasons for Grujah and it seems really flaky. Yuma starts the wagon because he felt he was the least town of the people with the most votes. Galz abandoned his first choice for a "more likely" target, and this was only when he had 3 votes. At least he said he didn't have a town read. Ehal is the first to actually bring up some points but really is only beating on him for lurkiness. Eevee gets a scum read from Grujah's defense. Morgrim votes because Grujah is likely. Ftl and joth sheeps posting pattern argument. Then axxle hammers.
I'm sorry for not being ecstatic that we lynched scum day 1 with a wagon like this.
Wow, i really don't like how you are displaying Grujahs lynch here. It gives me the feeling you're trying to discredit people voting for Grujah and I think by only referencing only the posts where people actually voted youre leaving out a lot of reasons. I certainly think your portrayal of eHalc being the first to actually give reasons is just wrong. Also, you leave out some people's votes, which i think is quite suspicious.
Also, since you were so interested in getting an informational lynch yesterday, wh are you not trying to make use of the information it got us?
I dont like how shraeye asks eHalc and Munch to stop "tunneling" on each other. While i agree that they shouldn't ignore others, i think an exchange between two players can give us a lot of information about both of them.
reread munch, didn't see anything that gave me a particular town vibe, vote: themunch
Is there anything that gives you a scum vibe? I dont think not getting a town vibe is enough for a vote.
I agree with Galz on what he says, especially about Dsell. I think Dsell saying scum wouldnt defend their buddy that much makes it more likely that he actually is scum doing so.
I' think I'll have to look at people getting a Morgrim lynch going yesterday a bit more, not sure wether I'll manage to do so today though
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I think it would be beneficial if more people did what Galzria did - picked a smaller list of folks and wrote out their positions in gory detail (instead of what normally happens, which is, you copy and paste the whole list of players from the beginning, and you try to say a little something about everyone, except, the vast majority of what you have to say is "no read, probably town, uh, i dunno," and no one benefits). If nothing else, the list of people whom you choose to include and not to include can be highly informative.
Galzria is more-or-less confirmed town to me, where I say more-or-less because of the conspiracy theory where he's a lying maniac who killed Glooble; however, I believe in this latter case he is doomed (because in that unlikely event, either he still has the wine, and he has to pass it on at some point, or he doesn't and he's lying about how often the wine gets passed - either way, his lie will be exposed as soon as someone else gets the wine, and I'm confident the wine has to be passed at least once per day or else it's broken). This makes me highly inclined to sheep his detective work. I don't like that I'm the only Gruj-wagoner on the Galz short-list but what are you going to do, waiting for his case so I can answer it.
I will write up Insomniac, Young Nick, and ibgtennis/theorel tonight. I can't commit to eight - we're not all Galzria. (note that the last two are exceptionally easy as they haven't posted a lot for IRL reasons).
Question: is there a non-painstaking way to insert more than one linked quotation in big posts? I don't know how to quote more than one post at a time without doing something ridiculous (starting lots of new posts by hitting the quote button and copy-pasting the html into a text document).
As far as DSell is concerned, I have a heart/head problem. In my heart he seems quite town - the only game I followed him was MIV where he seemed really different to me. But objectively it's hard to argue with Galzria's case - DSell's behavior relative to Grujah was really bad. Anyway, unvote for now - I have not reviewed Insomniac's interactions with Grujah at all. I think I will either revote for Insomniac or vote for DSell after my reviewing, barring another bombshell dropping.
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eHunt, I can't do those mega posts from my phone because I can't open the entire thread (for quotation purposes) - but even if you switched to say... 100 posts per page, it should still be manageable to track. Still, I did my reread first, in completion, and then went back and wrote my post. For tracking posts, I used the following meathod:
It's interesting doing this reread by spreadsheet. I won't be able to post it, but if others wish to follow this design, I find it quite helpful:
Across the top I list each player, with their names colored to match faction association (So O/Eevee/Glooble/myself are Green, Grujah is red). People I'm suspicious of I make orange.
Underneath each persons name I list their posts by #. I fill the background of each cell using light red if the post associated with known scum, light green if associated with known town, and for those I'm researching, light orange if the post just felt scummy to me.
At the end, I've got a visual representation of how people have interacted with known alignments, down to the posts in which they did so. I could probably take it a step further to bold post #'s that contain votes, so that's easyto reference as well.
It's not perfect, and it takes a little time to produce, but it's leaving me feeling good about where people stand and how I feel about them. Unfortunately, I've been dragged away by the GF, so it's still a work in progress for me. But I encourage others to do something similar. In a game this size it's really helping me sort things out.
At that point, when I went back to write my post I could easily reference by post #, and just do ctrl+f finds on the numbers themselves. Even if you don't open 'all', tracking at 100 posts per page should make grabbing each quote not terribly difficult.
Alternatively, you could keep a Word Document with each of the quotes as you go along... But that's massive and messy.
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For tracking posts, I used the following meathod:
You and your meathods. I love it.
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Per request, opening post was updated with current information.
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How many games has ashersky played in before this one? How about theMunch? Dsell?
All three seem to have the most suspicion on them. Knowing how experienced they are will make a big difference in determining whether their behavior is because they are newbs, scum, or both.
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How many games has ashersky played in before this one? How about theMunch? Dsell?
All three seem to have the most suspicion on them. Knowing how experienced they are will make a big difference in determining whether their behavior is because they are newbs, scum, or both.
Easiest way to answer this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am4-kXAplaK1dDhtRXBJNS1nYVR3U2dxSVhHTnJwb0E
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((That's the Mafia Leaderboard - completely unrelated to this game specifically))
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Possibly important to note that that only includes "normal" games. So no bastard or role madness games.
This is TheMunch's first overall game on the site though, I believe.
I agree with Galz on what he says, especially about Dsell. I think Dsell saying scum wouldnt defend their buddy that much makes it more likely that he actually is scum doing so.
So then why would I say that as scum? Scum doesn't want to look scummy or even suspicious at all. As scum, I would never want to do something that's gonna put me under heavy scrutiny on D1 or D2, because it is just not necessary. As town, sometimes you can't help it. I mean, you'll probably call WIFOM on this, and it's a whole lot of WIFOM. But ask yourself whether I, as scum, would choose to do something SUPER scummy (with only a small chance of actually saving a teammate) and rely on WIFOM to save me OR whether I would do something (bus grujah), which, if done convincingly, would most likely let me get through day 2 just fine. (Well we couldn't know which you'd choose to do, Dsell, because WIFOM!!)
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Correct Lynch %77.7...
I am so smrt!
Winrate: %33.3...
Doh!
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Man, that spreadsheet overstates my win % because it doesn't count role madness games. I feel pressured to vote right now.
Anyway, rereading D1 ashersky, he seems townier than munch to me. Munch's posts were just longer, but just end up being more confusing, not less scummy. So I'm keeping my vote where it is. I'll get to rereading Dsell... sometime...
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So then why would I say that as scum? Scum doesn't want to look scummy or even suspicious at all. As scum, I would never want to do something that's gonna put me under heavy scrutiny on D1 or D2, because it is just not necessary. As town, sometimes you can't help it. I mean, you'll probably call WIFOM on this, and it's a whole lot of WIFOM. But ask yourself whether I, as scum, would choose to do something SUPER scummy (with only a small chance of actually saving a teammate) and rely on WIFOM to save me OR whether I would do something (bus grujah), which, if done convincingly, would most likely let me get through day 2 just fine. (Well we couldn't know which you'd choose to do, Dsell, because WIFOM!!)
Maybe because you didn't think it would seem scummy.
This argument doesn't work because anyone can apply to any scummy action that anyone commits. In the end, it just becomes a license for all scum to be scummy and get away with it.
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So then why would I say that as scum? Scum doesn't want to look scummy or even suspicious at all. As scum, I would never want to do something that's gonna put me under heavy scrutiny on D1 or D2, because it is just not necessary. As town, sometimes you can't help it. I mean, you'll probably call WIFOM on this, and it's a whole lot of WIFOM. But ask yourself whether I, as scum, would choose to do something SUPER scummy (with only a small chance of actually saving a teammate) and rely on WIFOM to save me OR whether I would do something (bus grujah), which, if done convincingly, would most likely let me get through day 2 just fine. (Well we couldn't know which you'd choose to do, Dsell, because WIFOM!!)
Maybe because you didn't think it would seem scummy.
This argument doesn't work because anyone can apply to any scummy action that anyone commits. In the end, it just becomes a license for all scum to be scummy and get away with it.
I'm not saying that we should excuse scummy behavior, I'm just asking you to honestly assess whether you think I deliberately chose to do something extremely scummy when the option of doing something that's very townie-looking was just as viable...or if I am telling the truth and just made a pretty terrible mistake as town.
I expect this is the last I'll defend myself on this issue. I completely understand that I'll get a lot of suspicion, and I can't do much about that at this point. Hopefully you don't choose to lynch me, but from here on out I'm going to just scumhunt so that hopefully we can lynch scum or at least the town will have some reads to go off of if I'm lynched. I'm probably not gonna be able to do anything major until at least later tonight.
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Vote: Shraeye
A quick look through shows that shraeye was never really acknowledged the Grujah wagon as it was happening. I also felt that shraeye was independently scummy yesterday. I'm happy with this vote for now.
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TheMunch also seems to be latching on to Galz's read on DSell. I think he was able to smell that Galz's upcoming long post on his strongest scum read was him.
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TheMunch also seems to be latching on to Galz's read on DSell. I think he was able to smell that Galz's upcoming long post on his strongest scum read was him.
(I know I did)
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Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
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Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
This is a good point. I can off the top of my head remember that Dsell and YoungNick both were trying to actively stop the Grujah wagon (to varying degrees and at different times I feel). Who else at some point tried to discourage the wagon?
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Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
This is a good point. I can off the top of my head remember that Dsell and YoungNick both were trying to actively stop the Grujah wagon (to varying degrees and at different times I feel). Who else at some point tried to discourage the wagon?
Ashersky with his no lynch idea.
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Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
This is a good point. I can off the top of my head remember that Dsell and YoungNick both were trying to actively stop the Grujah wagon (to varying degrees and at different times I feel). Who else at some point tried to discourage the wagon?
Ashersky with his no lynch idea.
It wasn't like I was pushing the idea. Just thinking it through with the group. Clearly the lynch was preferred by me (and all).
Why does the assumption that Glooble was the kill target out of the so lovers seem to be favored? Does no one think anyone would want to kill O? I think a look back at O associations would be useful.
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Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
This is a good point. I can off the top of my head remember that Dsell and YoungNick both were trying to actively stop the Grujah wagon (to varying degrees and at different times I feel). Who else at some point tried to discourage the wagon?
Ashersky with his no lynch idea.
It wasn't like I was pushing the idea. Just thinking it through with the group. Clearly the lynch was preferred by me (and all).
Why does the assumption that Glooble was the kill target out of the so lovers seem to be favored? Does no one think anyone would want to kill O? I think a look back at O associations would be useful.
Serious question -- does it really matter who was shot?
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Alright, I'm rereading TheMunch's posts and he is SO. SCUMMY. I realize that Galz has a forthcoming post that is going to expound on this, but I'm sure this case will not be hard to build. Vote: TheMunch
And I'm not even finished rereading him yet. I'll still reread others but at this point I rather doubt I'll find anyone scummier.
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During day 1, Munch tended to be really trigger-happy with his votes, and yet he defended Grujah and even chainsaw-defense-voted Glooble (Is that the right term there? He voted for Glooble for voting for Grujah.), who of course is now confirmed town.
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Nice OMGUS vote there dsell! Actually I dont care about OMGUS. I never knew it was thing and I still dont know why it would be a particularly scummy thing to do.
Regardless, I'll address my Glooble vote. Yes I have been pretty trigger happy with my votes. I dont think I went in with the mindset of just voting everywhere but I would say I am developing a playstyle of voting where my suspicions are. I went back and looked at my case on Glooble and all it was was me going "hey, you're changing your vote around without saying why. Whats up?" Note, this had to do with the way he was voting, not who he was voting for (Did you actually read my posts, Dsell? Because then you would have seen that my vote on Glooble had nothing to do with him voting for Grujah specifically, just the way in which he went about doing it. Frankly it just seems like you are trying to paint me as scum when nothing scummy happened).
I dont think I've obfuscated the fact that I dont like when people do things for no reason. I like reasons. Logic hits home with me more than emotions and reactionary voting. But the case on Glooble didn't stick around; if anything I was just using my vote to call him out, town or not. Ok, he was town; I would have still called him out for it. I changed my vote as soon as there was something else to care about (my next vote was the Yuma wagon).
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Hi guys! Sorry I've been gone. I've been replaced/modkilled no doubt?
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Hi guys! Sorry I've been gone. I've been replaced/modkilled no doubt?
No, you're in, say stuff.
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Hi guys! Sorry I've been gone. I've been replaced/modkilled no doubt?
No, you're in, say stuff.
??? ??? ??? ??? :o :o :o :o you've got to be kidding. awesome!
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Ok guys. Read day two. It is 11:00 p.m. here so if nothing I say makes sense, forgve me.
Many people have almost confirmed themselves town, like Galz, maybe eHunt.
I'm gonna Vote: Dsell because of Galz's compelling case against him. And because of this:Alright, I'm rereading TheMunch's posts and he is SO. SCUMMY. I realize that Galz has a forthcoming post that is going to expound on this, but I'm sure this case will not be hard to build. Vote: TheMunch
And I'm not even finished rereading him yet. I'll still reread others but at this point I rather doubt I'll find anyone scummier.
??? that was...um...yeah. No. All right, my eyelids are falling. goodnight
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Robz, could we get a vote-count, please?
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I just did a reread of Young Nick for funsies. I went with the argument that its easier to do a reread of someone who hasn't posted that often. I can say this is pretty true and I got a pretty strong scum read on him. He has posted very few things of content (lots of complaining that there is too much to read) but the posts that did have content were very interesting. Namely post 1440 and his response in 1602.
yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
Why go for one of the others over Grujah? Serious question.
Sorry I missed this. What I was saying is that this seemed like too easy of an excuse to jump on the wagon. I was not aware of the posting patterns of Grujah (post after someone votes him) at the time. To me, it looked like you were just hedging and voting him because he was a lurker. Why any of the others? Because Grujah had provided some content over the course of the day. ibgtennis had not. I had provided minimal.
I can understand Grujah over Glooble (they were contributing equal amounts in my mind; it makes sense that you can see their butting heads as one being scum and the other not), but I still think it would have made more sense to lynch me or ibgtennis or O.
tl;dr: If you are going to lynch a lurker, then lynch one of the true lurkers. ibgtennis is the only one I see who is still posting way, way too infrequently.
Ex post facto it is interesting to see that one of his proposed lurker lynch targets was Glooble. Yet in his defense to eHal he said he could understand voting Grujah over Glooble (contradiction) and then giving a list of lynches that he thinks make more sense (also including on that list a new individual, O who interestingly would have still gotten Glooble killed). The fact that his contradiction regards someone who is known to flip town makes me rather suspicious.
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I could understand one choosing Grujah over Glooble in their mini-battles.
I could understand one choosing Glooble over Grujah in their mini-battles.
I understand how one could have chosen either in the moment.
In retrospect, clearly, those who chose Grujah were correct. I was explaining my logic at the time.
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Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
This is a good point. I can off the top of my head remember that Dsell and YoungNick both were trying to actively stop the Grujah wagon (to varying degrees and at different times I feel). Who else at some point tried to discourage the wagon?
Ashersky with his no lynch idea.
It wasn't like I was pushing the idea. Just thinking it through with the group. Clearly the lynch was preferred by me (and all).
But bringing it up at all is a bit more suspicious than not mentioning it at all. Even if you don't push it, to remind people of that extra option and encouraging people to think about whether it's good or not is a way to subtly tell people it's good. As I read your original post (embedded below) it really looks like you were giving the pros to a no-lynch idea, while saying "I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone".
You responded to my question day 1 saying that you still thought we should get a lynch but that you were "tossing out an alternate idea". Yes you tossed out that idea, and then proceeded to make some arguments for that idea. Sounds like an implicit endorsement to me. I'm suspicious, sir.
Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
Are you saying "we're going to get a lot more information from nightkills, so let's not lynch"??? I know you're not actively suggesting it, but that sounds like a terrible argument to even consider. It just sounds like you think lynching someone will somehow stop NK information. I'd prefer both, please.
For the record, I think we should get a lynch today. I was just tossing out an alternate idea, basically given the size of this town, the length of this day, etc. I don't think a lynch affects what happens at night, but do think analyzing night stuff will probably add a lot more content than analyzing a policy/plurality lynch.
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I just did a reread of Young Nick for funsies. I went with the argument that its easier to do a reread of someone who hasn't posted that often. I can say this is pretty true and I got a pretty strong scum read on him. He has posted very few things of content (lots of complaining that there is too much to read) but the posts that did have content were very interesting. Namely post 1440 and his response in 1602.
yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
Why go for one of the others over Grujah? Serious question.
Sorry I missed this. What I was saying is that this seemed like too easy of an excuse to jump on the wagon. I was not aware of the posting patterns of Grujah (post after someone votes him) at the time. To me, it looked like you were just hedging and voting him because he was a lurker. Why any of the others? Because Grujah had provided some content over the course of the day. ibgtennis had not. I had provided minimal.
I can understand Grujah over Glooble (they were contributing equal amounts in my mind; it makes sense that you can see their butting heads as one being scum and the other not), but I still think it would have made more sense to lynch me or ibgtennis or O.
tl;dr: If you are going to lynch a lurker, then lynch one of the true lurkers. ibgtennis is the only one I see who is still posting way, way too infrequently.
Ex post facto it is interesting to see that one of his proposed lurker lynch targets was Glooble. Yet in his defense to eHal he said he could understand voting Grujah over Glooble (contradiction) and then giving a list of lynches that he thinks make more sense (also including on that list a new individual, O who interestingly would have still gotten Glooble killed). The fact that his contradiction regards someone who is known to flip town makes me rather suspicious.
This is a decent case. Add it to the fact that he was one of the people who was commenting on the badness of a grujah lynch yesterday, and YoungNick is definitely worth a reread.
I really think this below is THE MAIN issue we should be thinking about right now; Grujah was a Mafia PR, and that by looking at people who voiced their dissent over this lynch, we are sure to find at least one scum among them. These people could be off-wagon, maybe they were a late joiner when the wagon seemed inevitable. But most certainly they would have said something softly right as the wagon was building up to try to redirect suspicion. That seems like the most likely time for scumpartners to say something to try to defend Grujah, as yelling loudly when the lynch is close to certain is probably not going to change the outcome and will only serve to increase suspicion on them day 2.
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
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Shraeye, why have you spent the entire game buddy-buddy with TheMunch? You two have defended each other at every turn. Deflecting with the use of your words and your votes. Want to explain in detail your read on him?
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Sorry, we're buddy-buddy because we agree with eachother? I know i've defended him because I don't get the same scumread that everybody else has gotten. I certainly think that the overwhelming page-after-page suspicion of Munch is detracting from my ability to go about scumhunting, as many non-Munch cases by me and others tend to get buried. My insistance that he's town is fading. I'm more neutral on him right now than I was day 1. But I'm really trying to focus on finding grujah's scumpartners, and I'm still 95% sure Munch isn't grujah's partner. He could be opposing scum or SK, but not Mafia. That's my current read on him.
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Vote Count 2.4
ashersky (3) -- Cuzz, watno, shraeye
TheMunch (3) -- eHalcyon, ftl, Dsell
Dsell (3) -- Jotheonah, TheMunch, Morgrim7
Not Voting (12) -- sparky5856, Insomniac, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, Cayvie, Yuma, theorel, Galzria, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, ehunt
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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I will prod Voltaire, who has yet to appear, I believe.
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Reread on YoungNick. He shows up late, and posts many many posts about not being able to catch up yet. His 7th post is the first to even have a glimmer of content.
Daily check-in here. Still haven't started.
I am seriously considering just going from page 30 or so to save myself the RVS BS. Can someone point me towards the post from eevee about the Cultist thang?
Ok, so he's curious about cultists, that's an improvement from the nothing posts we'd been getting.
3 days in, hasn't reread at all. He finally give his first read: he wants to lynch eevee (known town) for simply knowing about a recruiting faction.
I am curious about yuma's suggestion to lynch Axxle. It makes sense until you realize how different the dynamic is when there are (almost certainly) multiple scum teams. This would probably make it slightly less valuable. Still, I am not opposed to it. I haven't reread at all, but it seems like there is very little that we know and very few non-RVS reads. That or lynch Eevee for knowing about a Cult.
Still, in the very next post he votes Axxle. Joth responds the best to this, immediately posting "Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already."
Well, I am certainly not "blaming" other people for giving me their summaries. I just assumed that the information was relatively accurate, and that if it weren't, that someone would make a correction. Please don't think I am ungrateful for the summaries. It just sounds like there has been little of substance so far!
And a non-RVS read is one that is based off of legitimate discussion, which seems to have started after page 25ish or so. I guess I just don't value RVS, it's only purpose is to launch us into productive discussion which it has. And that's where worthwhile reads come from.
wait, didn't he just say that there wasn't any non-RVS info yet? Maybe YoungNick's finally rereading. Except, I guess not because in one of his future posts (what I consider the first real-substance post) he starts by saying he doesn't have time to read the 40 pages of D1:
Hi just checking in. I'm going to address a few thoughts up to that point real quick.
- First and foremost, I am definitely not going to have time to read the first 40 pages of this game. I will use the shraeye index, but that is obviously not as good as reading.
- Second off, I see that some people have called me out for lurking. Some think I am complaining about a lack of a summary (though I have one now, so hurray) and about how little time I have. I don't have much time. That's the reality of it. I signed up for a newbie-friendly game. I don't think a game that posts 7 pages in one day is newbie-friendly. See it as scummy if you will, but that's life.
It's not like I'm a soon-to-be father, but I am starting college. While in high school and during summer, my schedule is completely different. I have to go make new friends now. That takes time and effort. Time and effort that has to come from somewhere, aka Mafia.
I'm still staying in, though. I am doing my check-ins, trying to get caught up and getting into a routine where I can spend time on Mafia everyday. That schedule isn't set yet, but will hopefully be soon.
- Lastly, I do have a few reads. Mainly, I do think eHalc's "directing the cop" was a bit weird, even if he prefaced it. I understand that he supports investigating Morgrim in all games, but man, I would rather have my PR's keep their options more open. I do think he has said some fishy stuff, all of which he has been called out on. I do find that most reads I get are expressed by someone else hours before I even am at a computer. Like this whole vote-for-information type thing. It clearly is hedging. Hopefully today I can get caught up, and thus post up-to-date reads.
So YoungNick's finally getting reads, and all he has for us is "eHalc directing cop to investigate Morgrim is weird", "info-lynch looks like hedging", and "other people beat me to posting my reads, so I won't verify anything else at this point".
READ THIS
Now comes some suspicious stuff. The Grujah wagon has hit 6 players and YoungNick posts this.
yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
"Gosh, please don't lynch Grujah, you could even lynch me, I'd be ok with that. Just not Grujah." Also, YoungNick promises significant analysis.
READ THIS
Next post is in day2, no analysis came, his really stupid vote stayed safely on Axxle instead of switching to Grujah. He say's votes on Joth were silly. I agree, despite being one of those voters. Then he asks us to back off of ashersky for bringing up No-lynch.
I understand where you guys are coming from, and it does look like he has been hedging, but when I read his NL push, I viewed it more as asking an open-ended question than pushing for NL.
We all flirt with the idea in our Mafia-infancy, so I don't see why he should be judged more harshly for this than anyone else is. I mean, in a 20+ game, most conventional wisdom has to be at least modified, and the always-lynch-d1 logic is no exception.
If anything, I think Watno's second-on-the-wagon is more suspicious than anything else. Not that ashersky did much to defend himself at the top of p. 62..
READ THIS
Post explaining/defending position on not voting Grujah
Why go for one of the others over Grujah? Serious question.
Sorry I missed this. What I was saying is that this seemed like too easy of an excuse to jump on the wagon. I was not aware of the posting patterns of Grujah (post after someone votes him) at the time. To me, it looked like you were just hedging and voting him because he was a lurker. Why any of the others? Because Grujah had provided some content over the course of the day. ibgtennis had not. I had provided minimal.
I can understand Grujah over Glooble (they were contributing equal amounts in my mind; it makes sense that you can see their butting heads as one being scum and the other not), but I still think it would have made more sense to lynch me or ibgtennis or O.
tl;dr: If you are going to lynch a lurker, then lynch one of the true lurkers. ibgtennis is the only one I see who is still posting way, way too infrequently.
Hey, YoungNick, remember when you posted this "I, despite my play-style, am for a Lynch-All-Lurkers meta. I am not saying that is where one always will find scum (though sometimes we do), but rather just a way to make the scum-lurk no longer feasible. " In the above quote you said that "jumping on Grujah for lurking is too easy of an excuse for jumping on the wagon". Imma give you a hint, when trying to Lynch-all-Lurkers, somebody will have to jump on the wagon, easy or not. So why should people have not jumped on the Grujah wagon over lurking? Because there were also other lurkers? That's a terrible reason. A better reason would be because he's your team's PR, but you can't go saying that outloud obviously.
two posts which are confusing when we realize they were posted 7 hours apart:
I disagree with those who say Munch doesn't look bad. Dude has been hedging like crazy, which is a newb-tell and a scum-tell. I understand we have other things to look at, but hedging deserves proper investigation.
Personally, I am with most of the others here. The re-read terrifies me and it's not like I am drowning in free time anyway. I express my opinions but still struggle to get consistent reads in a game this big. I have said where I stand and until that changes or I have better reason, I feel I have little to contribute.
My feelings towards Munch are barely enough to warrant a vote. I still would like to hear more from ashersky. It's that simple.
Funny, last time I disagreed with people who said somebody looked not bad, then said that that bad-looker has been hedging like crazy, I thought that was plenty enough to warrent a vote. So Munch, scummy or not scummy, vote or not?
On reread, I do not like. I do not like at all. And this is what I do when I think someone looks this bad.
vote: YoungNick
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Starting reread on ashersky. Interesting fact, ashersky has posted even less than YoungNick.
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Also, quick edit to my analysis on YoungNick. Right after the first READ THIS that I put in, I said he defended grujah when the wagon was at 6; I took another look at it while rereading asher, and I think that number was actually 8.
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Unvote my massively outdated vote on O.
Sorry to not be posting as much, blitz 2 and packing up my entire house has kept me busy.
On topic, I agree with whomever said policy lynches (including lurker) don't provide as much info as convo-driven ones. I would prefer it to no lynch, I think, except in a town this size, and with possible multiple NKs, there will probably be plenty to analyze just on night actions.
I haven't been able to read closely, so I don't have much in the way of reads on players, but Frisk seems a bit harsher than his usual self.
I found a piece from ashersky about no-lynch that happened before grujah was in hot water. This makes me less suspicious of his no-lynch mention during crunch time. But this is a convoluted sentence here. "policy lynches aren't as good as regular ones, but I still prefer them to no-lynches" but he does add "except in a town this size, we may have plenty enough to analyze just by night actions." If there wasn't the "except" in there, this post would remove quite a lot of suspicion. As it stands, though, only a bit of suspicion is removed.
If we do indeed decide to do this, here's my three votes. Probably gone this weekend, but I might have time to poke in. I don't have strong scum reads on anyone at the moment. This was tricky.
Primary Vote: ashersky (for lurking in plain sight while calling on others not to lurk, and for being on the terrible shraeye wagon)
Secondary Vote: jotheonah (He's squirmed a lot with only 1 vote on him, tried to drive ehunt wagon, thinks lynching lurkers is a bad idea...some of it seems like a difference in playstyles, some of it feels like a scum vibe)
Third Vote: Watno (I haven't gotten substance from him, his tunneling of Munch was bizarre, plus "gut feel" from earlier)
No vote on Frisk anymore as he's changed his behavior for the better. Doesn't make him town, but it takes him from scum to neutral in my eyes.
PPE: Ugh. Don't make me change my mind.
I will mention that my in plain sight lurking has been predicated on me moving my entire family/household overseas at the moment. In a hotel now, even. At least I'm still contributing content when I can, unlike some others who are here. You even mention some.
You know me fairly well as compared to others I think. Other than posting less, do I seem different?
I love it. It's the classic "I wonder what other people think of me?" I recall sparky in MIX (Major Arcana mafia) doing this a bit pre-scumslip. Just saying things like, "I guess people naturally trust me." or "it's funny that i haven't caught suspicion yet" "what do you think of me, *InsertNameHere*?"
Vote: Insom
Agree I haven't been memorable to date, but I have been following as well as I can. I haven't had much too comment, but I am good with a soft deadline/plurality vote if we don't let it get manipulated into lynching with a weak minority of votes.
On Insom, the way he's been pushing on both eHs seems kind of scummy to me; neither eHs strike me as particularly scummy, but more just easy targets. Insom on the other hand has had no pressure on him at all, for some reason.
Secondary and tertiary votes go to Glooble/Grujah, for oft-quoted reasons.
I get town reads from Shraeye, Yuma, and axxle. The Shraeye wagon seems scummy, and am looking at ftl there.
Puts glooble/grujah at second votes, a classy place to put a potential scumpartner. Not voting for him, but "oh look, I did suspect him; half credit!"
Here's the most damning post that ashersky made:
Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
One factor that people may have missed that make it suspicious, is that it came immediately after YoungNick's call to lynch a different lurker than Grujah. At this point grujah had 8 votes on him. (I miscounted in the analysis on YoungNick's post) Two soft defenses of Grujah in a row. Nothing that either person couldn't deny the next day, but together maybe just enough to stall out this wagon. Sorry dudes, didn't work.
For the record, I think we should get a lynch today. I was just tossing out an alternate idea, basically given the size of this town, the length of this day, etc. I don't think a lynch affects what happens at night, but do think analyzing night stuff will probably add a lot more content than analyzing a policy/plurality lynch.
Before going to bed on the night before grujah-lynch, asher makes sure to get in the fact that he does support a lynch on D1. Still doesn't vote grujah though.
Ashersky with his no lynch idea.
It wasn't like I was pushing the idea. Just thinking it through with the group. Clearly the lynch was preferred by me (and all).
Why does the assumption that Glooble was the kill target out of the so lovers seem to be favored? Does no one think anyone would want to kill O? I think a look back at O associations would be useful.
Let me clear this up. asherky supported a lynch. He did not support the Grujah-lynch. I agree that he wasn't pushing the idea hard, but he did bring it up twice, and make some arguments for it. So it reads as suspicious when he refuses to own that.
All asher has contributed today is to guess that there were two NKs, not knowing what to make of Coppersmith, defending self, and voting for joth when he quickly and strongly suggested that we should look off-wagon first.
Overall, I'm getting a medium scumread here. Less suspicious than YoungNick, but still pretty suspicious.
-
Alright, time to stop being lazy and keep chugging away:
Just to recap from where I left off (this may or may not be relevant, but it certainly stuck out to me), Dsell has cast his vote 5 times, Voltaire has cast his vote 6 times, and CF has cast his vote 3 times.
*****************************
TheMunch:
He has cast his vote 11 times so far this game, on (in order): Ashersky (#310), eHunt (#325), Glooble (#487), Yuma (#523), O (#582), O (#801 - twice in same post), Yuma (#842), eHalcyon (#909), Watno (#1002), eHalcyon (#1282), Jotheonah (#1523).
Unlike the first three people I examined, TheMunch is the first person to cast multiple votes on known town (Glooble, #487; O, #482 & #801). Also notable to me is that despite his plethora of votes all throughout D1, when it came time to get down and dirty (Yuma's 3rd vote on Grujah (which I consider to be the take-off point) was at #1374, and the lynch occurred at #1505), his vote was nowhere to be found. However, don't allow that to fool you into thinking he just wasn't active. He posted at #1377, #1402, #1442, #1450 and #1458.
Into the actual content: I'll start off once more by saying that I did indeed find TheMunch to be on the townie side throughout D1. Part of that feel was that he stood along side me in my desire to heavily scrutinize lurkers over people who write their own gravestone (and are so often town). The other part of that feel was that I understood what he meant when he wanted an 'informational' lynch. Because of those two gut reads however, I think you'll come to understand why I've taken such a turn on my overall stance regarding TheMunch D2:
In TheMunch's second post of the game, #310, he starts out by condemning RVS... and ends by, near as I can tell, RVS's Ashersky:
So maybe I am just incredibly naive but I just dont understand the RVS as a concept. If the goal during the day is for town people to make good decisions and scum to make "bad" ones then having a RVS stage should, in my mind, only be backed by two kinds of people: lazy town and overeager scum. Both of these kinds of players are ones I wouldn't want to see around.
Imma interrupt the meta-reads everyone is giving. How is any of this useful at all?
Talking is good.
I agree with Cayvie here. For the people that are giving meta information, I could care less how players played in previous games. Anyone can change their playstyle at any minute and does not come with any value. But for the people that are giving such meta information, it can give insight into potentially what they care about from other players in other games, giving some kind of insight into their scum/protown leaning. Not sure; dont have anything conclusive yet but talking is better than RSV.
Vote: ashersky
It's not like the two quotes that he contained had anything to do with Ashersky, so I really don't understand how this vote is anything other than RVS. What was the point? -- I'm not saying RVS is bad (it is), but it's part of the game. I understand that. What I don't understand is how someone can condemn it and participate in it... in the very same post!
In his very next post, #325, he changes that Ashersky vote to eHunt:
Vote: ehunt
I have to say I was initially on board with ehunts idea; with such a large number of players I was smitten with the idea of less clutter more content. But as people actually started to refute this as being a bad idea it made me reevaluate my initial thoughts. Maybe its good in theory, bad in practice? Id rather encourage people to give themselves plenty of opportunities (through posting often) to produce inconsistent ideas which can be evaluated by the group. There might be more "junk" to sift through but all in all talking is good.
Now, I can understand voting for eHunt if you think that what he suggested was scummy - but I really don't get that interpretation from what TheMunch said here. What I get is "I thought it was a good idea, until others pointed out that maybe it isn't. I still think it's good in theory, but I'm going to vote eHunt for... ?? ??" Why? Because others thought that what he suggested wasn't a good idea? That isn't a reason to vote for someone.
I'm also going to point out something that's really been standing out to me as we go along. Here is the latest vote-count prior to his vote on eHunt:
Vote Count 1.4
Dsell (3) -- ehunt, Axxle
igbtennis (2) -- ftl, Insomniac
TheMunch (1) -- Jotheonah
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
ashersky (1) -- TheMunch
Not Voting (18) -- Voltgloss, Eevee, Grujah, Glooble, Young Nick, Voltaire, O, Shraeye, Cuzz, Yuma, igbtennis, Morgrim7, eHalcyon, Watno, Captain_Frisk, Galzria, Dsell, Cayvie
With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch.
This was at post #312 (keep track now): In #316, Cayvie votes for Shraeye. In #318, Eevee votes for Shraeye. In #322, Jotheonah votes eHunt. In #324, Glooble votes Shraeye. In #325, TheMunch votes eHunt. - This stands out to me because as the day goes along I see a LOT of deflection (subtle or not) between TheMunch and Shraeye. Enough so that Shraeye is going to be my next read. In this case, we have TheMunch's very much unexplained vote on eHunt.
In both posts #338, and #394, TheMunch continues to try and push suspicion away from Shraeye:
As a new player I have no clue what actilurking is and if not for people adamantly telling me its a thing I wouldn't have thought it was a thing. Instead of talking about scumslips can we just define the term and move forward?
I'm with whoever said the prolonged discussion of acti-lurking is, in fact, acti-lurking.
100 times this. Shraeye has had content in a lot of his posts and I think its about time people both notice that and comment on it (I'm looking at you Cayvie in posts 335 and 364; you bold the least content filled part of the posts and start this whole tangent. There very well might be others that are guilty for this but it deserves to be noted that people are guilty of this; see: watno.) I'm not trying to tie myself irreparably to Shraeye as I dont really have a good read on him one way or the other, but that doesn't mean there are other things of validity to discuss.
For example, Hey Gooble (in 324) and Watno (in 373), you both mention that you are suspicious of Shraeye. You are both most notable for being suspicious for reasons NOT involving the ridiculous "scumslip". Care to elaborate?
And not that I want to continue silliness involving semantics of "acti-lurking" but this all started with the post by Ashersky. If I understand correctly, Active Lurking (already mentioned but worth reiterating) is the act of making you look active while contributing nothing to the conversation, usually used to avoid topics while avoiding looking like you are avoiding topics. If that is the case, then why is Ashersky actually worried at all about being accused of active lurking. To active lurk there would need to be topics that he would want to avoid, but there weren't any at the time of the post. It just seems silly to me to be worried about being accused of something scummy when that act is physically impossible.
That all being said, my vote is on ehunt and will remain there for the time being. People have pretty much fleshed out why it is worthy to be suspicious of ehunt.
The "scumslip" that he's referring to are Shraeye's post #333 - which you can argue it's validity until the cows come home. At the time, I thought it was an iffy case at best - and I thought nothing of TheMunch defending Shraeye. The problem I'm running into is that rereading, you see these two paired at every single turn. It's not just a one time thing. Still, two people being buddy-buddy isn't in itself scummy. So I'm going to continue on, pointing out the pair, but trying to stay focused on information we know (Town players, scum player). For now, I'll just notate but not quote when a post comes up that pairs the two.
Like in #422, where TheMunch is responding to eHalcyon noticing this very thing (props to you eHal for picking up on this so early).
In post #479, a confirmed town {Glooble}, casts his vote on a now confirmed scum {Grujah}, and in #481, TheMunch responds with:
Ok, I'm back. I will unvote because shraeye doesn't look scummy to me anymore.
Vote: Grujah for showing up, voting on me, and disappearing. Given my history I'm a really easily justified target, probably an excellent candidate for a scum-led day one lynch. Call this OMGUS if you want, but it stood out to me, and not in a good way.
ehunt, just a question of clarification - when you say "once a day", did you mean game day or real life day? Because I think that confusion might be why some people are jumping on you.
What changed? I noticed you said he was suspicious for reasons not the scumslip. I called you out on it and [wanted] to know your reasons. Then without addressing me you changed your vote off shraeye. What changed?
Interestingly, Glooble (prior to that) had been voting for Shraeye for reasons "other than the scumslip" - as TheMunch noted. When provided with those reasons (Post #483), TheMunch followed up in #487 by voting Glooble:
I think "wanted" was autocorrected to "farted". I can't wait to get a smart phone so I can made hilarious errors!
Yup, phone typo. Thanks for responding. I still would have liked to hear all of this much sooner. I think if, when you had voted Shraeye the first time, if you had included this information, maybe we would have been talking about Shraeye's intentions instead of talking about acti-lurking for pages on pages. As such I still think its very suspicious to have changed your vote around as you did with little to no information. On top of that I hold you personally responsible for the last 5 pages of junk, whether or not you read them. :P
Vote: Glooble
I'll give ehunt a pass for now. I still dont like how much hes trying to control the game. I still care about the small slip I called him on before, but that is less suspicious than what I feel about Glooble.
His last sentence is interesting because he claims to have called eHunt on a "slip" - but if you recall (or read above here), his vote on eHunt was substanceless. More important than that is the twofold importance of this quote: First, that it's a vote on a confirmed townie (arguably Chain-Saw Defense, seeing as said confirmed townie had just cast his vote on Grujah), and second that he's once again defending Shraeye with the use of his vote - This time voting for someone who had his vote on Shraeye for reasons TheMunch didn't like, and then moved his vote to confirmed scum for reasons TheMunch didn't like. It's a subtle defense of both Grujah and Shraeye.
His very next post is post #523, which, while nothing stands out as scummy to me, did contain a change in vote - again - this time onto Yuma. Now, Yuma certainly isn't confirmed town, but he's much townier in my eyes overall for his efforts D1 in proposing a system that led to a scum lynch. Obviously such efforts at this time had not yet been put forth, but it's worth noting in my book that this vote is here.
#582 contains his next vote, this time on a confirmed town once more:
I have nothing to defend myself against...
Shraeye called you out for not giving your opinion on a list of topics that have come and gone while you were too lonely on your pedestal to participate in conversations that "weren't interesting enough for you." You have plenty to answer for and if you dont see it, I'm on board the Vote: O train too.
And who does he use as a reason to push this vote? Shraeye of course. Again, it's important to remember that through much of this I found these actions to be townie, because he was in essence, supporting many of the same things that I was, even if he went after different people. It's looking back with the knowledge we have now where everything started to really stand out.
What follows from TheMunch is a whole lot of snark, culminating in post #801 (where he votes for O twice and goes a little off the deep-end over O (And trust me TheMunch, I've been there too)), which I wasn't going quote, except AGAIN, the last paragraph of the post stood out to me because he AGAIN references Shraeye and his reads - so here it is (please ignore the snark):
So, hey guys. I dont know if you know this but there are people in this game (me) who haven't participated in other games (still me) and for those people (me again) it can be very difficult to see why those old games affect this one. One main reason: I give zero shits how people played in other games. People can change the way they play. If I had played in previous games, I would exploit all of you by just playing in the way that you guys think I do as town, since apparently thats all I need to do to convince you people that I are town. Seriously guys, you can be better than this. There is plenty to talk about. So lets do that.
To get the ball rolling, I did an entire reread. Surprise surprise, I still find eHunt and Yuma pretty scummy. Vote: O "But wait!" you say, "O is neither eHunt or Yuma." You would all be correct. O is in fact not ehunt and Yuma but I really find him to be a terrible player. I have called him out on it before but I am tired of his holier-than-thou attitude. If you are above contributing to this game, dont play it, and I'll help you with that regard. Vote: O (Protip: we're not friends).
But on subject: ehunt and Yuma. They were the 2 transgressors of what I believe to be my biggest pet peeve: posting something that too strongly tries to implicate yourself as town. eHunt did it first and Yuma second. I commented on both of them when it happened and no one really seemed to care:
If I just blindly type things and one of them gets misperceived as a scumslip, that's really bad for town.
I dont like that you use the word "misperceived." Feels like you are trying too hard to plant that you are town so that when you make a scumslip it would be a mistake to act on it. Subtle, but I dont like it.
But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.
Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip. I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line. I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched. You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss. I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing. It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy. You get my Vote: Yuma.
This coupled with what I find to be just sloppy play from both of them, namely very hollow arguments and not-so-subtle topic changes (I dont have direct evidence of these, just the impression I got), makes me really want to keep an eye on them.
Secondly, there has been a lot thats said that has gotten no attention because of Eevee's bombdrop of the cult knowledge. Thats all well and good but Shraeye makes a solid post on watno (who I would agree did not give me the towniest of reads on my reread). Its content-filled post like these that need to be addressed and I am super suspicious of everyone that is participating but not actually addressing content posts and the individuals who those posts call into question (I'm still not letting lurkers off the hook). I'll say it again: I do not consider old games to ever be relevent, throwing around M followed by some roman numeral doesn't make you cool; It makes you narrow minded in the sense that you cant see a world where any one is ever capable of changing the way they act and think. You are embarrassing yourselves and you can do better.
As I noted, the votes on O aside (which is a big aside, seeing as they're on a confirmed town), he is pushing the reads of Shraeye. At this point, I'm *really* beginning to wonder what to make of this connection. This is more than just your average noise. This is a set of two players in TWENTY-FIVE that are constantly showing up relating to one another.
Taking the vote on O into consideration, TheMunch has at this point voted for two townies {O, Glooble}, both of which fell under the "lurker" meta. Suspicious? Not at the time, no. But the fact that he never voted for Grujah (and as I'll get to - even defended him) under the same pretenses does stand out.
In post #842, he once again says the Shraeye wagon shouldn't have been a thing. He then revotes Yuma, but places (of all people!) Grujah in a list of "possible scummy people to look at":
Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.
I sincerely apologize if I am the cause of the decrease in fun for you. And for other people. This is not my intention at all. I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, and have meant all my posts in earnest, or in good fun, or a mix of both. No actual anger has driven any of these posts. I hope we can continue to enjoy this game together.
I feel like one thing ZM2 did accomplish (besides MAKING HISTORY) was that I think I understand shraeye a lot better and how he plays. It has made him read townier to me this game.
Why DID the ehunt wagon die? He really did start out the game much edgier and more hostile than I'm used to from him and then eased off it when criticized/voted on. And as much as I approve of using wagons to police good behavior, the fact that he straightened up when the heat hit him doesn't really give him town cred at all. It's what smart scum would do.
I did bring this up, although it almost definitely got lost in all the mess. I had reread, that wasn't a lie, and the people that had given me scummy reads were ehunt, yuma, and watno (at least they were the most egregious offenders). But after reading Galzria's post (really loved it, quite informative), I would really love to hone in on who so far has provided us with the most information that can be used once they flipped. There has been a ton thats gone down day 1 and I would love to circle in on something of value.
So I've seen 4 wagons (of note): Shraeye, ehunt, yuma, O.
Shraeye's wagon shouldn't have been a thing. However there were a few sketchy folks on it that had voted for Shraeye for reasons not his scumslip "I cant believe I got caught." I believe these were Watno, Glooble and Grujah, but I could be mistaken.
The ehunt wagon, I forget who started it (Cayvie?) but I dont like it. I was on it cause I thought ehunt was acting just as scummy as the next. But after the misunderstanding of his one-post-a-day proposal blew over (I'm still not 100% convinced it was a misunderstanding but it really isn't that huge of an issue) everything seemed to die down. I dont know how much information can be gained for ehunt dying but maybe someone else has more insight than me.
The yuma wagon was a mess. Mistakes happen, thats cool. The reason that I got on it was because of how Yuma was defending himself, which was much different than the others that jumped on him for "rolefishing." This didn't get much attention but Yuma got, in my opinion, way too defensive way too fast. People also jumped on him very quickly. Maybe there is still something to be gained from that wagon.
The O wagon, I'll admit doesn't really have a whole lot of basis. O might be O but the reason I've been voting for him and have continued to vote for him (facetiously, its not a post restriction, its just emphasis, maybe a little bit of copycatting of shraeye... I thought he was being amusing, maybe I was the only one) is more to do with the way hes been playing than whether or not I think hes scum. I think this might be very similar from the people that are on the wagon. While I still probably would like to see him dead, I dont think his death is the most valuable (yeah thats how lurking works, you dont say much, not much is said about you so you get away for being an invaluable first day kill, blah blah blah). Unvote
So those wagons aside theres still a few people in the works. Whether or not their deaths bring around lots of juicy morsals for the rest of us D2 is another story, but I'm looking at watno (Shraeye outlines his case numerous times), Axxle (where are you buddy), Glooble, and Grujah (who have both been seen getting scummy reads from a pile of people).
I would love to pick one case, see how much we can extract, then get a lynch. Vote: Yuma
PPE: So Eevee is back on the ehunt. I'm not saying its a bad thing but why ehunt? I got scum reads too but what evidence do you have from the wagon that you would like to see used and/or addressed?
The problem I'm having is that he never, not once, looked at Grujah as scummy, and certainly was as far from casting his vote on Grujah when it mattered as possible!
Post #874 is, I think, perhaps the most hilarious thing I've seen:
Another point on wagon hunting, I propose the following reasoning. Lets say we kill a wagon and that person flips either town or scum. Obviously there are more intricacies with the players power role, but lets keep it simple. So if they flip town, we'd want to re-examine the wagon and look at the people who jumped on very quickly after the wagon formed. If they flip scum, we would be looking for people that defended him.
Open question: what wagons do people feel have both elements to them (people who jumped on quickly after the wagon formed, and a strong defense for them by a small number of people) so that regardless of whether or not they flip town, we can deduce good information?
I'll bold for emphasis...
...
...
Got that? Hey! Guess what?? Grujah flipped scum! We should be looking to see who defended him, right?
^^^ I'll reference the above later.
In #909, TheMunch votes for eHal, but I feel like he was getting into OMGUS by that point. He and eHal had been going back and forth, and I understand the frustrations that come with trying to say stuff and having to defend every word you've said. eHal tunneled me in M-VI (that scum!) and it was really quite frustrating. One thing that really taught me was to take the blinders off (even though he really WAS scum!) - so when I see things like this from new players I have a tendency to dismiss it for what it usually is. A hairpulling frustration vote.
The odd thing is... that he turns around and does the exact same thing to Watno in #1002. It's like Insomniac 2.0! Vote for or disagree with TheMunch and be prepared to be voted for! Really though, I can't consider either of those votes as scummy or not as I know nothing about either of the two people he voted for. But ragevoting is dangerous as town at best, terrible for town at worst, and easily manipulatable as scum.
What DOES stand out about the above two exchanges is that TheMunch sounds like he thinks eHal was town tunneling, whereas Watno was scum tunneling. Here's post #1005:
On this Watno thing... I'm confused about it. I was grilling Munchy pretty hard, but Watno seems way more aggressive. I don't know, I can't really be objective about myself.
Yeah I would say that is the difference between you and him in the last few posts and the reason why I voted for watno. You were grilling me and had reasons to be doing so and hence why I was trying really hard to be clear with you. But watno just seemed like he wanted to catch me make a slip so he could pull the trigger. I dont like that.
It's almost like he forgot he ever voted on eHal over the exact same reasons. I don't know. It just really struck me as strange. If eHal was valid in his grilling while Watno was scummy, what was the vote on eHal all about?
In #1282 he replaces his vote on eHal for what I really think was one of the serious mischaracterizations that TheMunch is guilty of:
I'll Unvote for now, but I still get a vibe off eHalc.
I'll vote: Galzria.
I'll take over for you joth, Vote: eHalc. I'm still getting a vibe from watno, who has been quiet for a while now. I dont want to just jump on eHalc just cause hes being the most active but every time he posts something I get a little more suspicious of his intentions. I have started feeling this way ever since he was against (and is still against, he just reiterated it) the idea of gaining information from lynches. I dont like people that are against gaining information that is helpful to town.
eHal was NEVER against gaining information with the lynch. He was against lynching somebody for the sole reason of "It'll give us information". This vote is the last vote TheMunch makes D1, and is where his vote ends the day. What follows in his next 5 posts before the Thread Locked is notable then for TheMunch NOT voting Grujah, and in some instances defending him:
Post #1402:
I dont want to move my vote for no reason, but I would like to see a lynch happen, if only for personal reasons (I cant be the ONLY person here excited about RTR this weekend and doesn't want to be worried about the lynch votes going through in the final second). I'm going to go back and reread some stuff from Grujah as I didn't necessarily have a read on him; although, I do side with Yuma and Shraeye, if the last few IRL days weren't any evidence, there is no way anyone is getting lynched with our very scattered opinions.
"I don't want to move my vote for no reason" - This alone strikes me as odd considering the number of times that his vote moved throughout D1. He claims that he's willing to move his vote however if it's needed to avoid no-lynch and the he'll go back and "reread" Grujah, who he hasn't had a read on up until this point (even though Grujah was on that early wagon against Shraeye that TheMunch railed against, calling everybody who was on it as being scummy). Once again we find him in agreement with Shraeye.
#1442:
Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
PS I find it interesting that ehalc mentioned that if people just vote for someone to get them to die, we gain no information because everyone has an excuse. Yet ehalc is voting for grujah. I know he voiced different reasons for doing so but I just find it interesting.
PPE: @ashersky I'm gonna claim newbie on this one but, holy cow 25 people is a lot to keep track of and just from a "one less person to keep in my brain" standpoint I dont think I could go today with no lynch. I know people are going to die in the night but my brain cant take it. This shit is hard.
He rereads Grujah, but finds nothing scummy - He notes that Grujah hasn't said much at all (something he was very much in favor of lynching for earlier in the day when it related to O and Glooble) - and claims that lynching him would provide no information since Grujah hasn't taken any stances on anything - which quite simply isn't the case. He then goes on to criticize those who are voting for Grujah for having no justifiable reason and being ok with a wagon that will provide no information. - Which in itself is information, even if Grujah had flipped town -
#1458, his last post of D1:
Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
I agree with this. Although my read on Grujah isnt town, its nothing.
What was he agree'ing with? That Grujah "is town and therefore a bad lynch"? That he "wants the longest day ever to be over"? He claims not to have a town read on Grujah, but a null read. Yet in #1442 he explicitly said that he didn't find Grujah scummy. So what's his read on Grujah? Changing as the likelihood of lynch draws near? The last handful of posts are defense 101. He doesn't come out swinging in defense of Grujah, but he does go out of his way to try and derail the train. In a town of 25 with 13 needed to lynch, it's surprising he didn't succeed - especially considering we weren't dealing with a real, actual deadline, but a self-imposed one.
Much like Dsell, this just really, really doesn't look good. Certainly he'll argue that he was simply a "misguided townie" and not a "redirecting scum"... And hell, maybe I'd be inclined to believe him except he hasn't. He's come into D2 attacking the people ON the wagon. He's come out with "whoop-de-doo, we lynched scum". He honestly comes out sounding DISAPPOINTED about the results of D1! And that's where red flags really started to go up for me. Because all through D1 I DID have a town read on him.
Remember this quote (#874)?:
Another point on wagon hunting, I propose the following reasoning. Lets say we kill a wagon and that person flips either town or scum. Obviously there are more intricacies with the players power role, but lets keep it simple. So if they flip town, we'd want to re-examine the wagon and look at the people who jumped on very quickly after the wagon formed. If they flip scum, we would be looking for people that defended him.
Open question: what wagons do people feel have both elements to them (people who jumped on quickly after the wagon formed, and a strong defense for them by a small number of people) so that regardless of whether or not they flip town, we can deduce good information?
I told you I'd come back to it. Let's move on into D2. First post from TheMunch, #1523:
I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
If there is you and ftl would be at the top of my list... but that needs to be further analyzed.
Joth and ftl were already near the top of my list; i'm not sure about bussing or not, but eevee's role seems to me (and cayvie i guess) to mean that there are multiple scum teams. It absurd for joth to jump out and say "hey guys, definitely no scum on grujah's wagon because that didn't feel like bussing, let's look off-wagon". Yes indeed, look off wagon and completely forget that there could be a whole heap of non-mafia scum on grujah's wagon.
PPE: Cool, and you just gave us our first lead into which off-wagon voters to check, thanks director. Funny that one of the Morgrim-pushers happens to think you're scum. (Protip: that's me)
For another nearly antagonizing post, this actually makes a lot of sense. Seems very sketchy to immediately have everyone not look in depth at the wagon. I dont know if I necessarily think there is something awesome to be pulled from it either, however, that doesn't mean you should immediately tell everyone to "not look at the man behind the curtain" while giving no evidence to why. Vote: Jotheonah
He comes out jumping on the Jotheonah wagon over... Jotheonah suggesting we start by looking at the people off the wagon - and people who would've interacted with a confirmed scum. Something TheMunch said way back when we should do. All I can think and feel is that all of a sudden TheMunch realizes that his D1 play is going to look *really* bad in retrospect, and he wants to start derailing anybody who might dare go back and look through to see this. Not only is this one of the very worst votes I've seen all game, but the reasoning that TheMunch follows with in this post and his next few are simply terrible:
#1540:
I think I was pretty clear why Joth gave me a bad vibe. Its not exactly that he wanted to look off wagon; like I said, I might want to as well. However, to that quickly go out and say it without any supporting evidence is a little scummy to me. Granted it has been a long night, he could have been developing these ideas in his brain for a while and it just gets vomited out because he thinks its obvious after all the time spent thinking about it. I dont know, but if he were to have just at least given a little more of a reason why before directing everyone I'd be cool.
"I might want to as well. However, to that quickly go out and say it without any supporting evidence"...
You want supporting evidence that we should start by focusing off the wagon? GRUJAH WAS SCUM
Done.
#1590:
Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
PS I find it interesting that ehalc mentioned that if people just vote for someone to get them to die, we gain no information because everyone has an excuse. Yet ehalc is voting for grujah. I know he voiced different reasons for doing so but I just find it interesting.
PPE: @ashersky I'm gonna claim newbie on this one but, holy cow 25 people is a lot to keep track of and just from a "one less person to keep in my brain" standpoint I dont think I could go today with no lynch. I know people are going to die in the night but my brain cant take it. This shit is hard.
So, this is the post that Ehalcyon was referencing and I can say I was TOTALLY defending grujah... /sarcasm. Wait, thats not what I was doing at all. I was expressing that I didn't have the scummiest of reads on grujah and I didn't really like any of the reasons people were jumping on him. In fact in my next post, 1458:
Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
I agree with this. Although my read on Grujah isnt town, its nothing.
I explain that I didn't really have a protown read on Grujah either.
The closest thing to an argument I had to get on the Grujah wagon was the argument that he kept only coming back to defend himself very shortly after he got votes (I forget who said it). However, he was dead before I could check whether or not this is the case (so I never did; I should do that). The thing I'd be looking for is whether or not he actually came to defend himself every time he accumulated some number of votes. The fact that he came back after votes sometime isn't nearly as strong an argument as coming back after votes every time.
But great, we killed scum day 1 and I'm happy for that, but I really dont think there is much to go on (or at least past me did; I intend to reread to get more specific evidence about which I am talking) because as the wagon developed I really didn't feel that people had any strong cases against him and he was jumped on for being "today's lynch". I also had pointed out earlier that one of the first people that grew the wagon did it because "there were a bunch of people at 2 votes and Grujah felt the scummiest". Thats not really good information to pull from and I dont like it.
He categorically states that he was NOT defending Grujah, although I think it's pretty clear that's exactly what he was doing. Furthermore, he claims that he didn't have time to go back and check the case on Grujah (laid out by yours truly, btw Munch) that kept coming back just to defend himself. However, allow me to remind you all:
Yuma's vote #3 on the Grujah came in post #1374 (September 25th, at 11:40 am).
In post #1402 (September 25th, at 4:09 pm), he says he's going to go back and reread Grujah, and in post #1442 (September 25th, 7:59 pm), he says he's done so and seen nothing scummy.
Sure, I didn't lay out the case that Grujah only came back to defend himself until post #1476 (September 26th, 2:10 am) - but TheMunch had JUST REREAD Grujah - yet didn't see this himself?
The Thread Locked, btw, in post #1505 (September 26th, at 9:40 am).
My point is, it's not like there wasn't time, as claimed. The entire wagon took 24 hours to form and lynch, and TheMunch WAS active during that time, and supposedly DID reread Grujah.
Let's put that aside though, and look forward. TheMunch says that maybe he does see value in looking off the wagon, so let's see where he focuses next:
And we have post #1596 where he turns RIGHT BACK to trying to direct attention onto the wagon:
So I wanted to at least compile all of the voting reasons for the Grujah votes. Because ehunt voted so long about on Grujah, I have him listed that he didn't give a reason but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that it was explained earlier, I just didn't bother hunting for it. I didn't quote people, I just copy pasted their responses and put them in quotes below. This was less work for me. Ok here it is:
Glooble Votes Grujah in 479 for "showing up, voting on me, and disappearing."
ehunt Votes Grujah in 1295 without giving a reason.
WAGON START:
1375: (Yuma) "I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah"
1386: (Galzria) "I agree. He was in one of my top 3, and we really should start looking to consolidate. Since my #1 choice (eHal) seems to be met with equal parts adamant opposition and slight consideration, it really doesn't seem to be a productive choice. So I'll vote where there we might get something going - the fact that it's not on a town-read makes it all the better for me."
1404: (eHal) "I think he has lurked hard, which is really unusual for him. He returns just when it starts to heat up for him, and his posts read scummy. This wagon has a decent chance of lift-off, and I have decent reads on most on the wagon so far (not sure of the vote count though). Chance of lynch success does play a factor here, but Gruj's lurkiness is the major reason. It's not like he has been V/LA -- his post history shows that he has been active in Cosmic Encounter, at least. Why not drop in with some remarks during all of yesterday's drama? Maybe because he is scum and thought it would be safer to let townies argue themselves to a mislynch."
1433: (Eevee) "Grujah's defence doesn't read genuine to me"
1445: (Morgrim) "because he is the most likely person to be lynched"
1479: (ftl) "I didn't realize that about the timing of his posts, that's pretty bad."
1484: (joth) "Galz (argument about post timing) has got me convinced too"
1495: (Axxle) "Yaaaay!" (he really wanted to hammer)
So that is a collection of all the voting reasons for Grujah and it seems really flaky. Yuma starts the wagon because he felt he was the least town of the people with the most votes. Galz abandoned his first choice for a "more likely" target, and this was only when he had 3 votes. At least he said he didn't have a town read. Ehal is the first to actually bring up some points but really is only beating on him for lurkiness. Eevee gets a scum read from Grujah's defense. Morgrim votes because Grujah is likely. Ftl and joth sheeps posting pattern argument. Then axxle hammers.
I'm sorry for not being ecstatic that we lynched scum day 1 with a wagon like this.
Not only that, he simply referenced the actual posts that contain the votes, and NOT the growing case. It's an EXTREMELY flimsy argument/case to use as a basis for anything, and in some instances is just downright wrong. His whole effort here seems to be to A) redirect from off-wagon, and B) paint each person who voted for scum D1 in as weak a light as possible.
Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying there can't be, or are not scum on that wagon. But the hyper-focus in which TheMunch has come out firing at the wagon, ignoring his very own post D1 that states we should be looking for those who interacted with Grujah is just completely, completely scummy. He doesn't want to own up to his own position relating to Grujah, he wants to start by discrediting anybody who was involved in getting him lynched, and I just absolutely cannot shake the feeling that he's playing like scum trying not to be cornered.
Dsell was scummy as hell coming off D1. But D2 he's either played a very smooth scum, or as I've read him, town that actually knows he's fucked up. TheMunch, on review, has also played scummy as hell D1. And yet D2 he's come out trying to bash anybody who did actual productive work D1 - and on top of it, he's completely ignored - or in some cases changed tunes - regarding stances he took D1. He was fine lynching lurkers when the lurkers were town {O, Glooble}, but not when the lurker was scum {Grujah}. He was fine pushing for lynches for "informational purposes", but refuses to look at the lynch we got for information (and lynching scum is quite arguably the single most informational lynch we COULD have gotten).
To harp on (because TheMunch leaves such ample opportunity to), here's post #1603:
@The Munch:
Galz's argument about the posting pattern, that ftl and I sheeped, actually WAS really good. It's the kind of scumhunting we should be doing, and it laid Grujah's MO really bare. At the time I voted, I really was pretty convinced we were hitting scum, despite my town read on Grujah earlier in the day.
I can't really defend myself beyond that; I do think that I myself look pretty bad in terms of the Morg-Grujah wagons, so it seems hypocritical to accuse others of doing on purpose as scum what I stumbled into by accident as town (I guess this is what I get for being a contrarian.) That said, I do think it's a productive avenue to go down.
I agree the posting argument is the best argument that I've seen thusfar. In fact, I mentioned it earlier as a reason that I had almost jumped on the grujah wagon for myself. I think itd be enough for me to at least give some town-cred to whoever commented on his posting pattern or matter of defending. If not town-cred than at least not-on-the-same-scumteam-as-grujah-cred if there are more scumteams.
But I dont really know what you are being defensive about. Also what do you think is a productive avenue to go down?
Allow me to answer your last question:
Another point on wagon hunting, I propose the following reasoning. Lets say we kill a wagon and that person flips either town or scum. Obviously there are more intricacies with the players power role, but lets keep it simple. So if they flip town, we'd want to re-examine the wagon and look at the people who jumped on very quickly after the wagon formed. If they flip scum, we would be looking for people that defended him.
Open question: what wagons do people feel have both elements to them (people who jumped on quickly after the wagon formed, and a strong defense for them by a small number of people) so that regardless of whether or not they flip town, we can deduce good information?
I stopped reading at #1609 for TheMunch, although if you continue you'll once more see him and Shraeye coming back together to make cases and arguments for one another (See the case on Young_Nick, or Shraeye defending TheMunch, or...)
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In the end here, while I find Dsell very, very scummy, I find TheMunch equally so coming out of D1 (in light of Alignment flips), and I find him a LOT more scummy D2. On the traditional scale of 0 to 100, he's sitting at 85 for me right now. Just way, way off the charts. So I'm going to Vote: TheMunch as my primary scum read. His play has been erratic, inconsistent, and scummy. The connection that he has with Grujah is scummy enough, and the connection he has with Shraeye (who as I said, will now be my next read) is fascinating to say the least. There is definitely something off about his play, and with O/Glooble dead as a couple (and Shraeye now clarifying for me that his read on TheMunch is not concrete) I no longer have to consider that as a reasonable explanation. I'm very interested in hearing others thoughts on this, but I'm quite comfortable with this being the direction I want my vote to go today. It's on somebody off the wagon. It's on somebody who's defended Grujah. It's on somebody who's voted to lynch town multiple times. It's on somebody I genuinely find to be scummy with his play today, and yesterday, in light of what we now know to be the case.
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Gah! I am trying to find a way to copy and paste this thread into something so that I can access it during downtime at work (and I have a lot of it lately)--my workplace blocks the site--but this thread is so large that it isn't impossible to put it into a word or google document... I have crashed both Word and google docs twice now and my gmail truncates the thread when I try that route.
Any one have any ideas?
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Several word documents?
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Have skimmed, will respond to larger posts, especially shraeye's, later.
Quick note: my Lynch-all-Lurkers encourages lynching the worst lurkers first. I thought Grujah was lurking less than others, which is why I would have been more inclined to vote for others before him. I was never trying to derail a lynch, just prodding yuma a bit to expand on his thoughts. It worked. I laid off. And everyone was better for it.
Will post later.
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Gah! I am trying to find a way to copy and paste this thread into something so that I can access it during downtime at work (and I have a lot of it lately)--my workplace blocks the site--but this thread is so large that it isn't impossible to put it into a word or google document... I have crashed both Word and google docs twice now and my gmail truncates the thread when I try that route.
Any one have any ideas?
Used to be you could get through workplace blocks by running a site through Babelfish or some other online translator, English to English. But I'm sure most blocking software has improved sonce I was in high school.
Galz's super-long TheMunch case.
I agree that TheMunch looks, to use Dominion terminology, strictly worse than Dsell right now. So I'm comfortable sheeping Galz (for what I guess is the third time this game). Vote: TheMunch.
This is very impressive, solid scumhunting coming from both Galz and shraeye. Galz, I'll be interested to see you shraeye case.
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The only thing about Galz' case on me that I would argue is that the post where I say "I'm warming up to a grujah lynch" was after Galz posted about Grujah coming and defending himself after people voted for him. So it was not that I saw the writing on the wall and tried to make myself look better (I would have just voted for him if that were the case), it was just that evidence came up that I had not seen before.
But other than that, I do realize that my position is not good at all. I'll look back over day 1 and day 2 looking especially at the off-wagon people and do some analysis from my perspective too.
Well, and like I said, my general feeling is that despite the case, I believe you were more likely to be "misguided townie" and not "redirecting scumbuddy". At least, I think it's at least 50/50 on that alone. Still, I'm trying to present each case in it's entirety, regardless of how I feel.
My #1 scumread will have to wait until tomorrow though. I just don't have the energy to do another one of those posts tonight. Hint: It'll be on Munch (although his latest post read more town again to me, but... Eh, I'll still post up to what I had and then readjust from there if necessary).
I read your whole post Galz, and I want to respond to it. However some of your points that I disagree with I feel like I addressed in my clarification post. I'm just curious what the influence my recent posting has had on your opinion of me.
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Shraeye, I wish I could have said something before Galz posted his huge case, but I urge you to reread TheMunch and do an analysis similar to the ones you did for Young Nick and Ashersky and tell us how scummy he reads to you in light of everything we know.
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@Galz, this is an impressive case on Munch.
I think "wanted" was autocorrected to "farted". I can't wait to get a smart phone so I can made hilarious errors!
Yup, phone typo. Thanks for responding. I still would have liked to hear all of this much sooner. I think if, when you had voted Shraeye the first time, if you had included this information, maybe we would have been talking about Shraeye's intentions instead of talking about acti-lurking for pages on pages. As such I still think its very suspicious to have changed your vote around as you did with little to no information. On top of that I hold you personally responsible for the last 5 pages of junk, whether or not you read them. :P
Vote: Glooble
I'll give ehunt a pass for now. I still dont like how much hes trying to control the game. I still care about the small slip I called him on before, but that is less suspicious than what I feel about Glooble.
I missed this completely the first time around, that his vote over ehunt's weirdness was later called a slip. One thing that usually stands out to me is when people change the reasons they were voting for somebody, this always feels suspicious.
In #909, TheMunch votes for eHal, but I feel like he was getting into OMGUS by that point. He and eHal had been going back and forth, and I understand the frustrations that come with trying to say stuff and having to defend every word you've said. eHal tunneled me in M-VI (that scum!) and it was really quite frustrating. One thing that really taught me was to take the blinders off (even though he really WAS scum!) - so when I see things like this from new players I have a tendency to dismiss it for what it usually is. A hairpulling frustration vote.
The odd thing is... that he turns around and does the exact same thing to Watno in #1002. It's like Insomniac 2.0! Vote for or disagree with TheMunch and be prepared to be voted for! Really though, I can't consider either of those votes as scummy or not as I know nothing about either of the two people he voted for. But ragevoting is dangerous as town at best, terrible for town at worst, and easily manipulatable as scum.
What DOES stand out about the above two exchanges is that TheMunch sounds like he thinks eHal was town tunneling, whereas Watno was scum tunneling. Here's post #1005:
On this Watno thing... I'm confused about it. I was grilling Munchy pretty hard, but Watno seems way more aggressive. I don't know, I can't really be objective about myself.
Yeah I would say that is the difference between you and him in the last few posts and the reason why I voted for watno. You were grilling me and had reasons to be doing so and hence why I was trying really hard to be clear with you. But watno just seemed like he wanted to catch me make a slip so he could pull the trigger. I dont like that.
It's almost like he forgot he ever voted on eHal over the exact same reasons. I don't know. It just really struck me as strange. If eHal was valid in his grilling while Watno was scummy, what was the vote on eHal all about?
I also pushed the OMGUS he was feeling for eHalc and watno out of my mind initially as a normal reaction by a new player. But he's really really been consistent in defending hardcore even a modicum of suspicion against him. It's really starting to feel like sparky's "I just don't want to die because of some silly mistake." from MIX. This is contributing more and more to my suspicions of Munch.
Post #1402:
I dont want to move my vote for no reason, but I would like to see a lynch happen, if only for personal reasons (I cant be the ONLY person here excited about RTR this weekend and doesn't want to be worried about the lynch votes going through in the final second). I'm going to go back and reread some stuff from Grujah as I didn't necessarily have a read on him; although, I do side with Yuma and Shraeye, if the last few IRL days weren't any evidence, there is no way anyone is getting lynched with our very scattered opinions.
"I don't want to move my vote for no reason" - This alone strikes me as odd considering the number of times that his vote moved throughout D1. He claims that he's willing to move his vote however if it's needed to avoid no-lynch and the he'll go back and "reread" Grujah, who he hasn't had a read on up until this point (even though Grujah was on that early wagon against Shraeye that TheMunch railed against, calling everybody who was on it as being scummy).
This too stands out to me. Munch has certainly moved his vote around very loosely, but when it came down to trying to lynch someone, Munch suddenly became concerned with being on the actual lynching wagon and chose this time to not want to move his vote around for no reason. I really still disagree with people's reads that he was defending Grujah. When I say "this guy doesn't read as scummy" that's exactly what I mean, I'm commenting not at all on his towniness. So I don't see this in contradiction to his post about "Grujah is a null read." Regardless, this hesitation to put himself in a voting position where people may look at him is what is adding to my growing read that Munch is a new player on some opposing scumteam. He is very very worried about how much suspicion he collects.
Yuma's vote #3 on the Grujah came in post #1374 (September 25th, at 11:40 am).
In post #1402 (September 25th, at 4:09 pm), he says he's going to go back and reread Grujah, and in post #1442 (September 25th, 7:59 pm), he says he's done so and seen nothing scummy.
Sure, I didn't lay out the case that Grujah only came back to defend himself until post #1476 (September 26th, 2:10 am) - but TheMunch had JUST REREAD Grujah - yet didn't see this himself?
The Thread Locked, btw, in post #1505 (September 26th, at 9:40 am).
My point is, it's not like there wasn't time, as claimed. The entire wagon took 24 hours to form and lynch, and TheMunch WAS active during that time, and supposedly DID reread Grujah.
Here again, I'm skeptical of people's assumption that Munch is defending Grujah. Maybe he reread and didn't find anything, maybe he reread but not in time for the pretty quick lynch that happened, and maybe he never even reread. Regardless, I don't fault anyone for not noticing Grujah's habit of coming back within 2-3 posts of votes on him to defend. That would have easily slipped by me because it's very subtle and timestamps are out of the realm of things I normally look at in rereads; you have some serious scumhunting kungfu, Galz.
In my mind it just keeps coming back to "I don't want to lose for a small mistake or misdirected suspicion when I'm trying really hard not to make any of this."
I'm still much hotter on YoungNick's case due to my recent analysis and almost sure feeling that he's Grujah's partner, but I am becoming convinced that Munch is scum from some opposing faction. I'm not sure where he ranks against ashersky in my mind in terms of scumminess; that's a hard ranking for me to do right now because Munch is moving quick from town to scum, and asher is moving from serious scum to slight scum.
PPE: I was considering to do that as I was reading Galz's stuff, and saw your post while I was doing this.
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There's an inaccuracy in one of the details on the case on the munch - Munch's reference to a claim that I "slipped" was distinct from the original reason he was voting for me. He's referencing some other point on day one where he said something I said seemed sort of phony. I will dig up the post numbers as soon as my isotropic game finishes.
I think the rest of the case is pretty damning.
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ok, the relevant post numbers are
410, 424, 429, 446
it's sort of hard to summarize; it's probably worth just reading that dialogue.
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I still haven't done my homework on Insomniac, sorry. vote: TheMunch per Galzria.
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<snip>
Man, think outside the box and catch lots of flak. I will say I am decidedly unapologetic for suggesting the hint of a discussion of the thought of possibly looking at the option of maybe not lynching someone if there's no consensus on D1. As Shraeye even mentioned, the idea started before the Grujah wagon. The idea was unrelated.
Also, I did not know Grujah was mafia. A lot of folks in town seem to be working under the assumption that all the lynchers did, and they are all heroes deserving of accolades and medals. Guess what, if they knew Grujah was mafia for sure before the flip, they were also mafia.
@Galz and others: The hard, hard push by some people to keep the focus off wagon? If you were scum on the wagon to gain towncred (which we seem to hand out in buckets after being on a successful lynch), wouldn't you trade on that cred you've falsely earned by pushing cases on people off the wagon (the people who all must be scum because they didn't vote)? Remember, mafia can vote for mafia to seem town.
Again, voting for mafia does not clear you as town. Really, it doesn't. And not having voted for mafia on a D1 lynch does not make you mafia forever.
In fact, Galzria's HUGE, BOLDED statement that Grujah flipping scum clears the wagon here:
You want supporting evidence that we should start by focusing off the wagon? GRUJAH WAS SCUM
Done.
is incredibly haughty, trying to press and keep the town focused off-wagon only, and smacks of so much knowledge that we regular townies don't have. Terribly anti-town to me, and scummy. Vote: Galzria.
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So... Galzria is scum? Seriously?
Galzria's post about Grujah's posting pattern (posting only when he was called out for lurking) was no bus vote, ash. He presented new evidence that convinced two more people to join the wagon who had been on the fence. At the time he did it the Grujah lynch was far from a certainty. Also, Galzria started gunning for Grujah quite early in the day.
They could be scum on different teams I guess, but I think it's pretty preposterous to suggest they were teammates.
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@ashersky, I certainly don't think that everyone on the wagon is obvtown and I don't think that Galz would automatically say that either. However, I think that off-the-wagon is by far the best place to search for scum today. Then, if we find scum, we can analyze that wagon and the grujah one and we'll just be in a good position at that point. If we aren't successful in lynching scum today, we will have that information plus the grujah wagon to look at and again, we'll have more information. There will come a point when we will have to analyze the people on the grujah wagon, but I just don't think that time is today.
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<snip>
Man, think outside the box and catch lots of flak. I will say I am decidedly unapologetic for suggesting the hint of a discussion of the thought of possibly looking at the option of maybe not lynching someone if there's no consensus on D1. As Shraeye even mentioned, the idea started before the Grujah wagon. The idea was unrelated.
Also, I did not know Grujah was mafia. A lot of folks in town seem to be working under the assumption that all the lynchers did, and they are all heroes deserving of accolades and medals. Guess what, if they knew Grujah was mafia for sure before the flip, they were also mafia.
@Galz and others: The hard, hard push by some people to keep the focus off wagon? If you were scum on the wagon to gain towncred (which we seem to hand out in buckets after being on a successful lynch), wouldn't you trade on that cred you've falsely earned by pushing cases on people off the wagon (the people who all must be scum because they didn't vote)? Remember, mafia can vote for mafia to seem town.
Again, voting for mafia does not clear you as town. Really, it doesn't. And not having voted for mafia on a D1 lynch does not make you mafia forever.
In fact, Galzria's HUGE, BOLDED statement that Grujah flipping scum clears the wagon here:
You want supporting evidence that we should start by focusing off the wagon? GRUJAH WAS SCUM
Done.
is incredibly haughty, trying to press and keep the town focused off-wagon only, and smacks of so much knowledge that we regular townies don't have. Terribly anti-town to me, and scummy. Vote: Galzria.
Thanks ashersky for taking some heat off of me by being crazier than I ever could be. I get a huge town read from Galz. The scum hunting he is doing is gods work; really inspired. Hell, even though I know I'm not scum, Galzria almost had me convinced that I was. While I might agree with you that not everyone on the wagon deserves immediate town cred, that does not necessarily make someone the scummiest of scum for being a proponent of only looking off wagon. Couple that with the fact that I think Galz is super town, damn nature (read: ashersky) you scary. Vote: Ashersky
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
@dsell -- much better way of making your point than Galz-bold-look how stupid anyone who doesn't get it is style. I disagree though, as seeking X scum out of a large pool (off wagon) is harder odds-wise than seeking X mafia out of a small pool (wagon).
@themunch -- way to make yourself look even worse by saying "thanks for seeming worse than I've already established and taking heat off me" and kurplunking a vote with it.
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
@dsell -- much better way of making your point than Galz-bold-look how stupid anyone who doesn't get it is style. I disagree though, as seeking X scum out of a large pool (off wagon) is harder odds-wise than seeking X mafia out of a small pool (wagon).
@themunch -- way to make yourself look even worse by saying "thanks for seeming worse than I've already established and taking heat off me" and kurplunking a vote with it.
@Joth response: Under this pretense, I wouldn't have known Grujah was scum either, which is exactly what you claimed I knew when you voted for me. Rather inconsistent of you. I have no issues with someone voting for me - it's your right to do so - but please make logical consistent arguments if you do so. One thing I can't stand is faulty, inconsistent arguments.
@Dsell response: I get the feeling you didn't actually read everything and just picked out a response I made to a quote of TheMunch's. See, if you actually read, you'll realize that TheMunch's quote was made D2, not D1. His claim was that Joth made a statement ("That we should focus off the wagon") with no evidence to support his claim. Seems to me it was pretty clear that there was, in fact, the strongest evidence we'd had to do anything all game. It was evidence made available to everyone. But TheMunch seemed unclear it existed. I was making sure he got it.
@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.
In general: I'm rather unclear how you can claim that "off the wagon" is a larger subset than "on the wagon", considering it took half +1 of the votes to lynch - thus by the very nature of this game, "on the wagon" is larger. And that is not even taking into consideration the simple fact that MAFIA were much more likely to be off the wagon of their PR than on - and other scum could easily be in either place.
I've never once cleared the wagon, but I've said (and stand by) the fact that Grujah's mafia PR flip makes off the wagon the hands down best place to start looking.
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@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.
Wasn't asking for it. But I am still asking for a response as to whether the more recent clarification posts that contradict some of the points you made about me having any baring on your opinion of me.
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That sentence was rancid. I'm just curious whether you've taken into account my recent posts, which I feel contradict some of the points you made in your argument against me.
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
@dsell -- much better way of making your point than Galz-bold-look how stupid anyone who doesn't get it is style. I disagree though, as seeking X scum out of a large pool (off wagon) is harder odds-wise than seeking X mafia out of a small pool (wagon).
@themunch -- way to make yourself look even worse by saying "thanks for seeming worse than I've already established and taking heat off me" and kurplunking a vote with it.
@Joth response: Under this pretense, I wouldn't have known Grujah was scum either, which is exactly what you claimed I knew when you voted for me. Rather inconsistent of you. I have no issues with someone voting for me - it's your right to do so - but please make logical consistent arguments if you do so. One thing I can't stand is faulty, inconsistent arguments.
@Dsell response: I get the feeling you didn't actually read everything and just picked out a response I made to a quote of TheMunch's. See, if you actually read, you'll realize that TheMunch's quote was made D2, not D1. His claim was that Joth made a statement ("That we should focus off the wagon") with no evidence to support his claim. Seems to me it was pretty clear that there was, in fact, the strongest evidence we'd had to do anything all game. It was evidence made available to everyone. But TheMunch seemed unclear it existed. I was making sure he got it.
@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.
In general: I'm rather unclear how you can claim that "off the wagon" is a larger subset than "on the wagon", considering it took half +1 of the votes to lynch - thus by the very nature of this game, "on the wagon" is larger. And that is not even taking into consideration the simple fact that MAFIA were much more likely to be off the wagon of their PR than on - and other scum could easily be in either place.
I've never once cleared the wagon, but I've said (and stand by) the fact that Grujah's mafia PR flip makes off the wagon the hands down best place to start looking.
Are you willfully ignoring the fact that there were only 12 on the wagon, not 13? That is not half +1, unless I my math is worse than I thought. Seems you are trying to break my argument with misinformation.
So, 12 minus two NKed equals 10 wagoners alive. 11 off wagon. One of those numbers is greater than the other.
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
@dsell -- much better way of making your point than Galz-bold-look how stupid anyone who doesn't get it is style. I disagree though, as seeking X scum out of a large pool (off wagon) is harder odds-wise than seeking X mafia out of a small pool (wagon).
@themunch -- way to make yourself look even worse by saying "thanks for seeming worse than I've already established and taking heat off me" and kurplunking a vote with it.
@Joth response: Under this pretense, I wouldn't have known Grujah was scum either, which is exactly what you claimed I knew when you voted for me. Rather inconsistent of you. I have no issues with someone voting for me - it's your right to do so - but please make logical consistent arguments if you do so. One thing I can't stand is faulty, inconsistent arguments.
@Dsell response: I get the feeling you didn't actually read everything and just picked out a response I made to a quote of TheMunch's. See, if you actually read, you'll realize that TheMunch's quote was made D2, not D1. His claim was that Joth made a statement ("That we should focus off the wagon") with no evidence to support his claim. Seems to me it was pretty clear that there was, in fact, the strongest evidence we'd had to do anything all game. It was evidence made available to everyone. But TheMunch seemed unclear it existed. I was making sure he got it.
@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.
In general: I'm rather unclear how you can claim that "off the wagon" is a larger subset than "on the wagon", considering it took half +1 of the votes to lynch - thus by the very nature of this game, "on the wagon" is larger. And that is not even taking into consideration the simple fact that MAFIA were much more likely to be off the wagon of their PR than on - and other scum could easily be in either place.
I've never once cleared the wagon, but I've said (and stand by) the fact that Grujah's mafia PR flip makes off the wagon the hands down best place to start looking.
Are you willfully ignoring the fact that there were only 12 on the wagon, not 13? That is not half +1, unless I my math is worse than I thought. Seems you are trying to break my argument with misinformation.
So, 12 minus two NKed equals 10 wagoners alive. 11 off wagon. One of those numbers is greater than the other.
Actually no, I wasn't taking the double-voter into consideration - however I absolutely think it's borderline terrible play to go "Hey, we lynched scum! I know, I'll focus on the people who made it happen! That'll be the best place to find scum, yeah!".
You also completely ignored my point that your original vote on me was for knowing Grujah was scum, but then claim to Joth that I could be any scum faction. Because all scum know who all other scum is - right? ::)
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After-post edit:
I also think characterizing one subset (11) as being a large pool, and the other (10) to be a small pool extremely misleading. If you honestly think there's a huge difference there, and that given the nature of events that it makes more sense (ie. Higher odds, as you imply) to search for scum ON a scum lynch simply because the subset is 1 person smaller, I really can't even argue with you, because you're applying bad logic, plain and simple.
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.
Being scummy does not mean they are mafia, is what I meant, and a point I have seen made often on f.ds. My last sentence means I do not think people will lynch Galz because I voted for him for being scummy, so if he is town we won't mislynch. Me however, I am town, but folks seem to be ok with mislynching me for very little.
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so I am going to break this down as such into analysis of people (before performing a reread) that I consider highly likely to be scum, likely to be scum, potential scum, unlikely scum (at least in relation to Grujah). I will perform a heavy reread on highly likely, a light reread on likely and potential and no reread on unlikely.
Highly Likely to be scum: Dsell, Young Nick, TheMunch, jotheonah, Voltaire
Likely to be scum: Morgrim7, CaptainFrisk, ftl
Potential scum: sparky, theorel, Cuzz, ashersky, Watno
Unlikely to be scum: Galzria, ehunt, Cayvie, eHal, Axxle, shraeye
This isn't going to be indepth, because multiple people have already done that and frankly we need to get today moving... times like these I wish Voltgloss was still in the game, he could sure get the town rolling FOS: sparky for not adequately filling voltgloss's shoes (no, not really... you are doing fine).
Dsell - Galz's analysis of him was well done. I found the most compelling argument against him was in regard to him listing Grujah as a potential lynch candidate (3rd) but then never voting on him and even saying that he no longer had a scum read on Grujah when Grujah had done very little to warrant such a change in opinion. It looked like an attempt to cast a very small amount of suspicion at a scumbuddy so later in the game he could say, "well I was pretty suspicious of him." Along those lines, the redirect to Morgrim and his "warming up to Grujah." Like Galz notes, it is worth something that Dsell came out of the gates and admitted to trying to derail the Grujah wagon, but then again, that seems like a perfect scum strategy.
Young Nick - again, this time shraeye, has already performed an analysis. I do not blame him at all for not rereading and don't find it scummy. To go back and do a complete reread would have rendered him useless as town for still more days and left him unable to participate for even longer. Both shraeye and I have noted that Young Nick's questioning of me as the Grujah wagon began to take off was just plain odd. Young Nick states that if we should lynch someone it should be someone who is lurkier than Grujah. And he provides ibgtennis and himself as potential candidates. For me this argument is absolute bunk. Grujah lurked hard! And while I wasn't out to lynch a "lurker" it is exactly what he was doing. I imagine that if I had voted Young Nick for lurking he would have responded "why are you voting for me? There are other lurkers just as lurky as me? Why not Grujah or ibgtennis?" Add in his conflicting opinion about TheMunch and you have a pretty compelling case.
TheMunch - Yeah, again this has already been done for me by Galz. As he notes, TheMunch is very liberal with his vote. It seems he uses it in the same way that others use a FOS. That isn't my play style, but I don't really mind it. The buddying with shraeye isn't a huge deal for me (see me as town defending and having eerily similar reads as Frisk who was scum in MVIII). His vote on me was interesting, and could go either way, but annoyed me as he kept putting words into my mouth (well... keyboard) and misinterpreting my posts. That wasn't cool. His defense of Grujah is scummy, more so than Dsell in my opinion, but even worse was his complete questioning of the motives of the Grujah wagon--while it is very possible for scum to be on it--his analysis was that every single vote was bad and provided no information. TheMunch is really into getting "information" but doesn't seem to be too interested in lynching scum.
jotheonah - I mentioned before that if anyone on the wagon is scum I would put jot at the top of the list. I don't think anyone has done an analysis on him, so while I won't go a Galz style one, I will take a good look at him. Early day 1 he had his votes in a couple of places and argued heavily with ehunt and galz, and posted quite a bit, but wasn't ever in the forefront (jot has a tendency in Mafia to have a lot of short posts, that is just his style, not necessarily a reflection of his alignment). He lists his top 3 as (ehunt, Watno and eHal) changing his vote from ehunt to eHal over his copping-Morgrim thing, and then goes back to Galz and then unvotes... all three of these w/o any stated reason. Jot isn't around, or isn't posting when the Grujah wagon takes off. At 7 votes he continues his argument with eHal and then votes Morgrim--competely ignoring the case on Grujah except to say, "Vote: Morgrim he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point." because he is: "participating more than usual, but with just as little content." The wagon then grows to 9 and jot says, "he part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch." and then "I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie. Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome." He then states that his top candidates are still ehunt, watno, and ehal and doesn't really think morgrim is scum, but is ok with it because "the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset." He then votes Grujah after Galz's case and puts him at L-2 and calls him buddy? Day 2: he has his "probably wasn't a whole lot of bussing in that lynch" which got a lot of heat, but potentially not enough...
Voltaire - I'll just say this right now. Is it possible that Voltaire saw that his scum mate was lynched and decided, "well this game is over and stopped caring?" I dont' know Voltaire personally and haven't played with him too much, but I think that it is plausible. Kind of like a ragequit in isotropic? I hope that if Voltaire reads this he doesn't take it personally, but it is odd to completely disappear from the game for so long. Either some emergency came up (which is understandable) or a scum voltaire just gave up and stopped caring? But at this point I wont' vote for that, but I will look at voltaire a bit more. I guess now that I look at this, it is less likely as he wasn't around at all during the Grujah wagon, his last post being september 25, although he was on the forum October 1. It is notable that he is one person that was on my wagon (remember I know I am confirmed town), and the most scummy out of all of them for it. Toward the end of the game his top 3 was jot, watno and frisk, although he was still voting for Insomniac when he posted that. I am sure there is more to look at, but I haven't looked through all of it.
Morgrim7 - I always find him scummy, and I am not going to do a full reread, but I can summerize it from memory: Morgrim participates in RVS, he sheeps reads, votes w/o explanation, self votes and then joins the wagon that lynched Grujah. The end.
CaptainFrisk - Looking through day 2=no content. Basically he just suggests to look off wagon and analyze who didn't help lynch and WHY? But never actually looks off wagon himself. So let's look at why he didn't vote Grujah. Frisk was certainly online during the Grujah lynch. He voted for O (the only vote at the time) at L-4 because O hadn't voted for anyone yet so close to the deadline. Frisk says absolutely nothing about Grujah. Nil. Previous to his O vote he was voting shraeye for getting angry. Previous and prior to that he has a lot of helpful posts, vote count analysis, summaries for Young Nick, the electing a lyncher idea, helping with plurality, but not much substance
ftl - my read on him was the same as the Day 1 in my post when I voted for Grujah. There is said this: "ftl (1) - ftl looks to me like a perfect example of scum trying at the beginning of the game to be active and fully participate, but as the game wore on, it became more and more difficult to keep up and not make a mistake, so instead of posting more and potentially making a mistake, he slowly sinks into the background."
So in summary, I would prefer to vote for: Dsell, Young Nick, TheMunch, jotheonah, but willing to vote for ftl and Frisk. I don't think I would want to pursue a voltaire or a morgrim lynch at this point.
For now it really is a toss up between voting for Dsell, YoungNick and TheMunch. but I will vote: TheMunch
Two other unrelated points I want to bring up.
1. On the off chance that Galz's cup is cult related, shall we change the status to "not drink." I think if the cup is cult related it is more likely that to "drink" is more likely to result in being cult recruited, that to "not drink."
2. TheMunch wagon is taking off. But on the chance that it doesn't. Should we implement a soft deadline similar to yesterday's?
PPE: Ashersky just got bumped up to likely scum, but themunch's vote on him seems to be more of a deflection to get town to pay attention to ashersky instead of theMunch
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I gotta say, I'm town and I played very badly on day 1. However, I'm loving the people who are saying that if I'm scum, I'm playing a real smooth day 2. ;D
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@galz
My vote on you is for continually refusing to acknowledge that folks can look on wagon for mafia, and for trying to control town actions. I think that is scummy and anti-town. I don't think you'll be lynched for it, and if you are town, obviously I don't want you to be.
11 vs. 10 sounds small, but this is a small sample size. But aren't you on the wagon? Aren't you town? Then we're looking at X mafia out of 9 for your analysis. Do you find others on the wagon obvtown? Reduce the number further.
On-wagon should be the easier place for you to scum hunt, if you are town, just based on numbers. So why are you ignoring the obvious?
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.
Being scummy does not mean they are mafia, is what I meant, and a point I have seen made often on f.ds. My last sentence means I do not think people will lynch Galz because I voted for him for being scummy, so if he is town we won't mislynch. Me however, I am town, but folks seem to be ok with mislynching me for very little.
So you are saying
(A) You think Galz is scummy, but
(B) That is not a statement about his alignment, merely a statement that he's playing in an anti-town way ?
But the thing is (C) You're voting for him and (D) you're trying to downplay your vote by saying it won't lead to a mislynch because no one else will follow it.
Well why are you calling it a mislynch already unless you have a town-read on Galz? And if you do, why on earth are you voting him?? And anyway, I think we all agree that a vote means, at the very least two things, from a town-aligned player. (1) I don't think this person is town and (2) I would be ok lynching them. If you can't say those two things, you shouldn't be voting for someone (excluding maybe RVS or pressure votes, neither of which apply here). You seem to be indicating that neither 1 nor 2 is true (You think Galz is town and you don't want to see him lynched), yet you're voting for him.
Sorry, but that's really blatantly anti-town. Vote: ashersky.
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@yuma, the one thing I want to point out in your analysis is that Morgim7 gets some cred for being the other viable lynch yesterday. Doesn't make any sense for scum to try to save their PR by arguing for a lynch on another person on their team. If Morgrim7 is scum, I don't think he's with Grujah, but FWIW my read on him has shifted to probTown.
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@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.
Being scummy does not mean they are mafia, is what I meant, and a point I have seen made often on f.ds. My last sentence means I do not think people will lynch Galz because I voted for him for being scummy, so if he is town we won't mislynch. Me however, I am town, but folks seem to be ok with mislynching me for very little.
So you are saying
(A) You think Galz is scummy, but
(B) That is not a statement about his alignment, merely a statement that he's playing in an anti-town way ?
But the thing is (C) You're voting for him and (D) you're trying to downplay your vote by saying it won't lead to a mislynch because no one else will follow it.
Well why are you calling it a mislynch already unless you have a town-read on Galz? And if you do, why on earth are you voting him?? And anyway, I think we all agree that a vote means, at the very least two things, from a town-aligned player. (1) I don't think this person is town and (2) I would be ok lynching them. If you can't say those two things, you shouldn't be voting for someone (excluding maybe RVS or pressure votes, neither of which apply here). You seem to be indicating that neither 1 nor 2 is true (You think Galz is town and you don't want to see him lynched), yet you're voting for him.
Sorry, but that's really blatantly anti-town. Vote: ashersky.
Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior? Your vote is a lot like mine.
As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there. Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.
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Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior? Your vote is a lot like mine.
As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there. Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.
Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.
Nope, I think you're mafia. No hypocrisy here. The hostility, the defensiveness, the arguing that black is white in order to try to save your skin - it all reads scum to me!
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I sort of messed that up. The bottom graf was supposed to go after the first quote.
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Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior? Your vote is a lot like mine.
As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there. Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.
Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.
Nope, I think you're mafia. No hypocrisy here. The hostility, the defensiveness, the arguing that black is white in order to try to save your skin - it all reads scum to me!
I look forward to your posts after you kill a townie, me, then. I do love how convinced you are, though. Makes it more hilarious for the mafia watching how no one is willing to scum hunt them. Your conviction does read town to me, at least.
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Reading the rest of Day 2 since my last post. Free time = WHERE ARE YOU
All I can say is I would have to be pretty dumb to redirect THAT much from fellow scum on day 1.
So you say it's a mistake that you attempted to constantly redirect attention from your fellow scumbuddy, now that other people are pegging you for it. Good to know.
I imagine that one or more of his scumbuddies took that protection, and it'll definitely buy them some time, because something pretty radical would have to happen for me to consider lynching someone on the grujah wagon. I believe our chances of hitting scum off wagon are just so, so much better.
note to self: if Dsell is mafia then there's someone obscenely powerful who was bussing Grujah and who's mafia.
Ok guys. Read day two. It is 11:00 p.m. here so if nothing I say makes sense, forgve me.
Many people have almost confirmed themselves town, like Galz, maybe eHunt.
I'm gonna Vote: Dsell because of Galz's compelling case against him. And because of this:Alright, I'm rereading TheMunch's posts and he is SO. SCUMMY. I realize that Galz has a forthcoming post that is going to expound on this, but I'm sure this case will not be hard to build. Vote: TheMunch
And I'm not even finished rereading him yet. I'll still reread others but at this point I rather doubt I'll find anyone scummier.
??? that was...um...yeah. No. All right, my eyelids are falling. goodnight
NOW, if Morgrim is scum, then Dsell must be town. I don't see much reason to bus your partner now when we're still far away from deadline WAIT. MULTIPLE SCUM TEAMS. Then scratch that, Morgrim and Dsell can't be on the same team then, in that case. Morgrim may only be pushing someone who's not on his scumteam.
#1734 WOAHHHHH lot of words that I agree with without even reading them. I've already said he gave me an uneasy feeling.
Will post later.
Well... EVERYONE has to do this! Otherwise everyone would be modkilled. Trying too hard to make it seem like he's here?
As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there. Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.
Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.
Yeah uhhhhh, don't you WANT to control town if you want people to value and follow your opinions?
I can't seriously analyze everything as my brain just doesn't want to do that for some reason. :( I find it weird though that there's way too many scummy people out there right now. What I'm seeing: Dsell (slightly), Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, shraeye, Young Nick. What are the odds that ALL of these players are scum? Isn't it more likely that some players are watching all of this from afar just letting us kill each other? I.e., they may occasionally post but not provide much detail or insight at all. I realize this is the case some of the people I listed, but this is STILL going on.
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TheMunch - Yeah, again this has already been done for me by Galz. As he notes, TheMunch is very liberal with his vote. It seems he uses it in the same way that others use a FOS. That isn't my play style, but I don't really mind it. The buddying with shraeye isn't a huge deal for me (see me as town defending and having eerily similar reads as Frisk who was scum in MVIII). His vote on me was interesting, and could go either way, but annoyed me as he kept putting words into my mouth (well... keyboard) and misinterpreting my posts. That wasn't cool. His defense of Grujah is scummy, more so than Dsell in my opinion, but even worse was his complete questioning of the motives of the Grujah wagon--while it is very possible for scum to be on it--his analysis was that every single vote was bad and provided no information. TheMunch is really into getting "information" but doesn't seem to be too interested in lynching scum.
So basically there was a lot in here and in Galz post that I wanted him to address but since its gaining visibility I'd rather just comment on it. Basically 2 main things:
1) I didn't defend Grujah. While I said that I didn't have a scum read on him (which we now all know is wrong, k fine), I was never actively pushing against him getting lynched. A "Not scum" read is not the same as a town read; it just means I had a neutral read on him which is consistent. I could understand this argument against me if during the Grujah lynch I was actually pushing hard for someone else to get lynched instead of him. We have seen others push much harder to see not-Grujah lynched; these would be stronger targets than me for that reason.
2) I was not questioning the motives of the Grujah wagon, per se (at least never to the extent of "there is scum on the Grujah wagon"), and I definitely didn't say that every single vote was "bad and provided no information". I just saw people saying, hey lets look off wagon because everyone on wagon is town (I now like much better the arguments that have come up recently, such as by Galz, that while you may or may not get a pass for being on the wagon, it is much smarter to be looking off wagon). So I felt that since I didn't agree with the notion that everyone on the wagon should get a free pass, I decided to actually look at the wagon and decide for myself who should actually get some town cred. I gave that out to the people that actually had reasons for voting for Grujah; the rest just got nothing reads to me for their participation on the wagon. Since I had felt that there were some people who proposed that everyone on the wagon deserved town cred, I went on a tirade to "prove them wrong". This was a very negative and adversarial approach and for that I apologize.
Now most of my attention is off wagon, namely Young Nick, Ashersky, and Dsell. Tldr: I never defended Grujah, and I never got scum reads from people on the Grujah wagon, only town or neutral; I just chose a much too adversarial approach. I'm not saying this behavior is admirable, but at least its consistent; see: me vs O for much too personal reasons. I might try to be rational but I can be reactionary from time to time and it would seem that I have a tendency to try to prove I'm right instead of arguing what actually matters.
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I just saw people saying, hey lets look off wagon because everyone on wagon is town (I now like much better the arguments that have come up recently, such as by Galz, that while you may or may not get a pass for being on the wagon, it is much smarter to be looking off wagon).
When did anyone ever say everyone on the wagon was town?
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I just saw people saying, hey lets look off wagon because everyone on wagon is town (I now like much better the arguments that have come up recently, such as by Galz, that while you may or may not get a pass for being on the wagon, it is much smarter to be looking off wagon).
When did anyone ever say everyone on the wagon was town?
As I am rereading, I am realizing more and more that the super strong push was probably more imagined by me than an actual strong push to look exclusively off wagon. Because of my vote on joth a lot of the responses were very "hey, thats strange, why did you do that" and it was all centered around looking on or off wagon. I think I just got overly defensive regarding this debate and it became more about me proving myself right than proving any one person particularly wrong. Then once I got started, my desire to prove myself right caused me to spend a disproportional amount of time looking on the wagon.
But the posts that I feel skewed my impression are as follows:
Alright, now that I know I'm alive, time to take the time to traipse through this thread. (Ten (...eleven?) Words beginning with "T" in a row. Impressive.).
The people voting for Joth right now however are being ridiculous. What he said is spot on. It makes so much more sense to look at Grujah's associations - off the wagon particularly - first. I won't go so far as to call you all scummy for your votes on him, but seriously - don't get cocky over our successful lynch of Grujah. It took time and effort to pick him our, and in particular it did NOT take opportunistic or hasty play. So cool your jets.
This is consistent with Galz opinion recently and I am upset I missed it when he had said it. Maybe it was the fact that my judgement was being called into question that I got overly defensive.
I still get bad vibes from Munch, and his jumping on jo just makes it worse. For someone so concerned on day 1 about lynching for info, his treatment of the info we have seems odd. The wagon is a clear partition; why would you NOT give townie points to people who successfully lynched scum? And, to my recollection, that was in the face of a good amount of doubt from some people (and these people definitely need to be looked into).
Again I am being called out and this immediately puts me on the defensive. More fuel for my desire to prove myself right. Although, eHal is actually pushing hard looking off wagon. Its looking more and more like people just misinterpreted my vote on joth as being against looking off wagon instead of, as I've already stated, I was just voting for him the way in which he proposed it; two separate things.
I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1. Especially when there's a town this big, we've got to have a whole bunch of them. Still, I would expect that there's more scum off the wagon than on it, so we should start by scumhunting there and then find the bussing mafia later.
Ftl is the next. He is another that didn't say "Lets only look off wagon" He just said lets do off wagon first then look for bussers later. Still another opportunity for me to misread the situation.
Then Cuzz calls me out for not pissing my pants about the Grujah wagon. I get defensive again and my stream of conciousness post causes me to actually want to develop my opinion about the Grujah wagon for myself.
@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.
Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.
Today we get to do the opposite. Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?
Yeah I didn't mean to be very poo poo about the fact that we lynched town day 1. I can definitely see why, after having played a ton of games where town ultimately gets lynched D1, it is very exciting to go into day 2 under a differently light. But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon. I still need to go back and do the reread of the development of the grujah wagon to see what actually went down. Maybe it was the amount of attention I paid but the whole wagon seemed to go down very quickly so I would love to reevaluate what actually happened. I'll be back when I do that.
So yeah at this point, I had a unreasonably strong opinion that tons of people were pushing everyone to look off wagon hard. Couple this with getting called out a bunch of times for being kinda sketchy, I got really defensive really fast.
Note here I said "But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon." My opinion on this matter has never changed. I will concede that I spent a disproportionate amount of time looking at the former instead of the latter. Now I can continue to do what I have been doing recently "...and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon." Others have beat me to the punch; but I am a proponent of arguments of this nature that have been brought up already, my strongest reads being on Young Nick, Dsell, and Ashersky.
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@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.
Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.
Today we get to do the opposite. Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?
Yeah I didn't mean to be very poo poo about the fact that we lynched town day 1. I can definitely see why, after having played a ton of games where town ultimately gets lynched D1, it is very exciting to go into day 2 under a differently light. But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon. I still need to go back and do the reread of the development of the grujah wagon to see what actually went down. Maybe it was the amount of attention I paid but the whole wagon seemed to go down very quickly so I would love to reevaluate what actually happened. I'll be back when I do that.
Uhhh is this a possible scumslip? I've never been a fan of scumslip hunting (of 2 real "scumslips" in f.ds history, one of them was by my scumbuddy and the other was in a game I was neither in nor following), but this is kind of interesting. I suppose it's probably nothing (and of course Munch will say it's nothing) but it's at least something to look at.
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@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.
Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.
Today we get to do the opposite. Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?
Yeah I didn't mean to be very poo poo about the fact that we lynched town day 1. I can definitely see why, after having played a ton of games where town ultimately gets lynched D1, it is very exciting to go into day 2 under a differently light. But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon. I still need to go back and do the reread of the development of the grujah wagon to see what actually went down. Maybe it was the amount of attention I paid but the whole wagon seemed to go down very quickly so I would love to reevaluate what actually happened. I'll be back when I do that.
Uhhh is this a possible scumslip? I've never been a fan of scumslip hunting (of 2 real "scumslips" in f.ds history, one of them was by my scumbuddy and the other was in a game I was neither in nor following), but this is kind of interesting. I suppose it's probably nothing (and of course Munch will say it's nothing) but it's at least something to look at.
You're right, it is nothing. Read my posts, I talk in the negative a lot. I probably just dropped the not or I just formed my sentence poorly. But the next sentence clearly says what I mean, that normally town gets lynched D1 so "it is very exciting to go into D2 under a different light." I would call it a typo.
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PS Dsell, do you have any comment on the actual content of my post?
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Everyone, but especially Galzria:
Do you think there's a cult in this game?
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Everyone, but especially Galzria:
Do you think there's a cult in this game?
no
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Everyone, but especially Galzria:
Do you think there's a cult in this game?
I have no reason to think that there isn't--hmm double negative, let's change that to, I think there is; I would have liked to have learned more about eevee's role pm before he died to see if it was a misinterpretation (he misinterpreted his pm in BMMM1 way back when) but aside from that I don't think we have any reason to believe that he was 1. lying or 2. being trolled by the mod (this isn't bastard mafia right?)
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Everyone, but especially Galzria:
Do you think there's a cult in this game?
I have no information that supports the idea, but none that denies it either. If I were guessing purely off meta-reasons I would say absolutely not. Robz loathed the whole idea of cults in RMM, and I just don't think he would include them in the one game he chooses to host.
Eevee's statement was there was a "faction" with night talk, who got something if they recruited him. I would honestly expect something like:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Neighborizer
Before I would expect a cult. Again though, that's just based on what I know about Robz. Ultimately, I really don't know. But that's my thought.
It doesn't in any way relate to the WIFOM however, and I'm quite happy with the default "don't drink".
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I think a nerfed cult is possible. Why else would Robz have mentioned it as a possibility in the intro post?
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Vote Count 2.5
ashersky (4) -- Cuzz, watno, TheMunch, jotheonah
TheMunch (6) -- eHalcyon, ftl, Dsell, Galzria, ehunt, yuma
Dsell (1) -- Morgrim7
Young Nick (1) -- shraeye
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
Not Voting (8 ) -- sparky5856, Insomniac, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, Cayvie, theorel, Captain_Frisk
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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Everyone, but especially Galzria:
Do you think there's a cult in this game?
I have no information that supports the idea, but none that denies it either. If I were guessing purely off meta-reasons I would say absolutely not. Robz loathed the whole idea of cults in RMM, and I just don't think he would include them in the one game he chooses to host.
Eevee's statement was there was a "faction" with night talk, who got something if they recruited him. I would honestly expect something like:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Neighborizer
Before I would expect a cult. Again though, that's just based on what I know about Robz. Ultimately, I really don't know. But that's my thought.
It doesn't in any way relate to the WIFOM however, and I'm quite happy with the default "don't drink".
I did not know this role existed. Cool. It is a possibility, but cult may still be a thing.
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I'm thinking no cult.
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No mention of neighborizer in the possible roles that Robz listed, so I doubt that is the case.
I'm not sure what it is, but Cult seems to be the only one that was listed as a possible role, so I will assume that for now.
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A List of Possible Role and Modifiers (For information on the roles listed below, go here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles)):
Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper, Roleblocker, Vigilante, Serial Killer, Werewolf, Mason, Neighbor, Lover, Watcher, Tracker, Ninja, Hider/Commuter, Miller, Bus Driver, Bodyguard, Lightning Rod, Doublevoter, Survivor, Backup, Godfather, Jack-of-All Trades, Innocent Child, Mailman, Inventor, Gunsmith, Redirector, Bomb, Cult, Framer, Lie Detector
Modifiers: X-shot, Insane, Paranoid, Naïve, Hated, Random, Post Restricted, Lynchproof, Bulletproof, Strong, Weak
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Recanted.
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I was V/LA yesterday and I am on my phone now so it's not so effective for me to read. Haven't read the last 2-3 pages yet. I think I will have time to sit down and respond to all those cases in a couple of hours.
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Everyone, but especially Galzria:
Do you think there's a cult in this game?
I have no reason to think that there isn't--hmm double negative, let's change that to, I think there is; I would have liked to have learned more about eevee's role pm before he died to see if it was a misinterpretation (he misinterpreted his pm in BMMM1 way back when) but aside from that I don't think we have any reason to believe that he was 1. lying or 2. being trolled by the mod (this isn't bastard mafia right?)
hmm
eevee was mod trolled in Murder Mystery (he was a seer with no werewolves).
maybe here too?
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Anyway, I asked because Galz's case on TheMunch really reads like scum who's found other scum to me.
I dunno. It's like, the case against TheMunch is clearly good and extensive; why does Galz feel the need to include the weaker bits of it?
Like the thing about TheMunch condemning RVS and making a random vote in the same post; it's mildly weird, but I feel that Galz really has to stretch to make it sound scummy.
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Anyway, I asked because Galz's case on TheMunch really reads like scum who's found other scum to me.
I dunno. It's like, the case against TheMunch is clearly good and extensive; why does Galz feel the need to include the weaker bits of it?
Like the thing about TheMunch condemning RVS and making a random vote in the same post; it's mildly weird, but I feel that Galz really has to stretch to make it sound scummy.
Read back on each person I've done a write up on thusfar. It's called being complete. Sorry I don't half-ass it.
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I think Galzrias case on TheMunch is really good. Cayvie, i dont see why you think it is scum having found other scum. Including the weaker points rather looks like Galzria did it in a very thorough way, but I don't see how that is scummy.
I don't like how ashersky picks out a small part of Galzrias case and votes him for it, while in another part of his post galz said that the reason ashersky votes him for doesn't apply. Also the discussion about the size of the wagon and the not-wagon makes no sense at all. Also what ashersky did was defintely suggesting a nolynch in my opinion, even if he claims it wasnt.
I think it might well be possible that TheMuch and ashersky are scumbuddies and TheMunch is now trying to distance himself from ashersky so that in case one of them gets lynched, the other can get some towncred from it. I believe both TheMunch as well as ashersky are good targets for a lynch today.
Regarding the existance of a cult: Since I believe we have two killing factions (there were most probably two nightkills, and I think one of them being a vig is unlikely). So a cult would put us at 3 scum factions, which seems quite much. So I think a Neighbourizer or similar is more likely.
What shraeye says about YoungNick also makes sense, however Munch and ashersky are still the most suspicious in my eyes.
The scumslip Dsell claims to have found in Munch's post just isn't a scumslip in my opinion. It's a mistake, but i dont see how it could be caused by being scum. Maybe Dsell is trying to get more credit for his participation in a possible Munch-lynch and desperatley looking for another reason to add?
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I think it might well be possible that TheMuch and ashersky are scumbuddies and TheMunch is now trying to distance himself from ashersky so that in case one of them gets lynched, the other can get some towncred from it.
I dont even know what to make of this. Its so ridiculous I dont even have a proper response for it. I'm just going to be over here cause I didn't buy tickets to the crazy train.
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I find it hilarious that everyone is focused on me and munch, since we're the of the few that are active. Everyone else, mafia and town, are just sitting back and relaxing.
On Munch, seems scummy, but no real read past what everyone else is saying about him. On cults, I have no clue. In a town this size, I'd guess there are more than two NKs available to people; maybe some chose not to shoot, or hit doc/jk targets, etc.?
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I find it hilarious that everyone is focused on me and munch, since we're the of the few that are active. Everyone else, mafia and town, are just sitting back and relaxing.
On Munch, seems scummy, but no real read past what everyone else is saying about him. On cults, I have no clue. In a town this size, I'd guess there are more than two NKs available to people; maybe some chose not to shoot, or hit doc/jk targets, etc.?
Got me wondering... Time for a Postcount!:
1. ftl: 43
2. Sparky (Voltgloss): 9 (38) - 47
3. Eevee: 72
4. Grujah: 49
5. Insomniac: 67
6. Glooble: 25
7. Dsell: 92
8. Jotheonah: 142
9. Young Nick: 40
10. Voltaire: 81
11. Axxle: 63
12. O: 35
13. Cayvie: 106
14. Shraeye: 95
15. Cuzz: 31
16. Yuma: 79
17. Theorel (ibgtennis): 3 (12) - 15
18. TheMunch: 85
19. Morgrim7: 30
20. eHalcyon: 154
21. Watno: 38
22. Galzria: 109
23. Captain_Frisk: 60
24. eHunt: 94
25. Ashersky: 38
1791 posts. 1505 in D1 (25 players), 286 D2 (21 players). Average posts per player D1: 60.2. Average posts per player D2: 13.6. Average posts per player alive: 73.8.
73.8 could be considered an ideal number. But I understand that not everybody contributes as much as others. So being above or below that number isn't a crime. However for those that are barely at HALF - ie. Those below, say, 40 posts - I've bolded in the list above. They are players that really cannot be considered to be all that involved this game thusfar. Certainly, I would hardly consider any of them "active" players. That said, I enlarged the one that stands out massively.
Theorel: What's going on here?
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@galz -- do you have a D2-only count? I think that would look quite different.
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@galz -- do you have a D2-only count? I think that would look quite different.
I could, but it would be tedious from my mobile.
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@galz -- do you have a D2-only count? I think that would look quite different.
if you are so interested and so active why dont' you do it?
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I was interested so I did it:
1. ftl: 7
2. Sparky (Voltgloss): 6
3. Eevee:
4. Grujah:
5. Insomniac: 8
6. Glooble:
7. Dsell: 23
8. Jotheonah: 21
9. Young Nick: 15
10. Voltaire: 0
11. Axxle: 15
12. O:
13. Cayvie: 17
14. Shraeye: 22
15. Cuzz: 3
16. Yuma: 14
17. Theorel (ibgtennis): 3
18. TheMunch: 29
19. Morgrim7: 4
20. eHalcyon: 18
21. Watno: 3
22. Galzria: 31
23. Captain_Frisk: 10
24. eHunt: 13
25. Ashersky: 13
I think maybe ashersky didn't want to do it because he didn't actually want to know the answer. 7 of his 13 posts were within the last 45 posts, after he was called out. I am one of the more active people. He is not.
The most inactive (\leq 10 posts) are Ftl, Sparky, Insomniac, Cuzz, Morgrim, Watno, and Captain Frisk.
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@munch -- haven't been called out for anything yet, let alone lurking. Look at you own numbers, I am not in the bottom, by any means.
Tunneling town is anti-town. So, I'd suggest scum hunting, instead of focusing just on me. I am just being honest here--check my previous games if you don't believe me. My wagon will be fairly worthless when I flip town.
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I think maybe ashersky didn't want to do it because he didn't actually want to know the answer. 7 of his 13 posts were within the last 45 posts, after he was called out. I am one of the more active people. He is not.
That is what I figured and why I wanted him to put it together, but thanks for doing it
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@Ashersky - You have 4 votes on your wagon. I'm not saying thats a lot but its notable. I was the last to vote for you. I went back and double checked, 8 of your posts have been since the last person (me) has voted for you and thats just in the last 2 pages (+1 post from the previous page). I dont think you can claim that you are getting heat just for being active if 8/13 posts happened after your votes accumulated.
@Yuma - Yeah I'd vote for him again if my vote wasn't already on him. Reads super scummy to me that he would try to defend himself in this way when its a lie. Also I dont like the "You'll regret it when I flip town" argument. Its specious.
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Vote Count 2.5
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
Should we implement a soft deadline similar to yesterday's?
No one has answered this, but I would like to suggest that we implement a soft deadline of Thursday midnight, forum time. As the deadline is on a Sunday I think it would be best to have everything figured out before the weekend starts up (because I seem to be the exception in being more active over the weekend).
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For D3 after I die:
Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma
Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye
Wanted to get that on the record.
@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.
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Ok, Munch and ash BOTH looks so scummy, but I can't imagine they're both scum, the way they're fighting. I mean, it doesn't read like a fake fight.
And I get a slightly more townish read on ashersky, i.e. his play can more easily be explained as bad town play rather than scum play.
I'm going to switch back to Vote: TheMunch. Have scumreads on both, feel a little better about the Munch lynch.
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I should note, I could be talked into switching back. I don't like that two big scumreads are fighting each other like this. It tells me that I'm likely wrong about at least one of them. What do other people think? Could it be a bus? Could it be multiple teams? If we're to lynch one of them today (and we don't have to) which one should it be and why?
Robz, we haven't had a vote count in a while.
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For D3 after I die:
Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma
care to provide any rationale as to why you feel this way about me... I don't think you have provided a case.
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@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.
and man, it is the weekend... most people don't post on the weekend...
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For D3 after I die:
Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma
care to provide any rationale as to why you feel this way about me... I don't think you have provided a case.
You are right. Went back to the post that gave me that read...and it was Watno, not you. So drop Yuma, add Watno.
@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.
and man, it is the weekend... most people don't post on the weekend...
It is Monday afternoon here...so I guess I forgot. Still, not so crazy to want more voices here, is it?
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And before someone asks, #1789. Watno's defense of Galz, slight attack on Cayvie. Check my reads on those two and you see my thinking.
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OK, I am starting my reading back from page 70 now, so some of my responses below may have already been posted by others. Apologies for being less active (though I guess it's been good -- others have been active in my place). If you didn't realize it, this weekend was Thanksgiving in Canada. I thought I would still have time to read and participate, but I was more occupied than I realized.
shraeye #1727 -- I believe I asked this earlier and I think you answered, but what is the basis for your town read on Munch? As I recall, it was just his newbie status? If you think Munch could be "opposing scum or SK, but not Mafia", that is no reason to vouch for him at all. Scum is scum.
shraeye #1730 --
when it happened, I noted that Nick's comment against lynching Grujah was weird. Framing it as, "lynch Glooble or even myself instead" is interesting. Makes sense if he is Goon trying to direct away from the Mafia PR. Of course, it would be just as terrible for Goon Nick if we did lynch him, since he would flip Mafia and then we wonder why he put himself in the way of the Grujah lynch. Poor Mafia play, or poor town play? Hm.
In the second last quote (last "READ THIS") you say that Nick posted support for "lynch all lurkers" despite his play style. Do you have a quote for that? I remember Glooble posting something like that, but not Nick.
shraeye #1733 --
I don't understand the criticism of the word "except".
I do not believe that asking what others think of you is a scum tell.
You criticize ashersky for suggesting no lynch. This strikes me as very inconsistent of you. You consider the no lynch suggestion as a "soft defense of Grujah". So why did Munch get a pass when he said that he didn't find Grujah scummy?
Galzria #1734 -- Nothing to add. These are many of the reasons I have found Munch scummy and more, all very clearly stated. Well done.
yuma #1735 -- try the Pocket (http://getpocket.com/) app, perhaps?
Young Nick #1737 -- But why? What did Grujah post that you thought was content-ful? igbtennis posted rarely, but he usually offered a fair amount when he did. Glooble did talk a bit, though I can't remember if it was before or after your post. And you had a decent excuse for being V/LA. What did Grujah say that made him seem like less of a lurker to you?
shraeye #1741 -- You expressed a town read on Munch earlier, but now it's gone completely? I guess it's just natural progression from #1727, so that's alright. I've already pointed out the inconsistency of your treatment of what looks to be Munch subtly trying to derail Grujah's lynch, as per my response to post #1733.
ashersky #1745 --
Uh, what? What in the world? Cripes, this looks enormously scummy. No, of course the lynchers did not know Grujah was mafia. But the lynchers thought there was enough of a case to lynch him, and MAN, lynching Mafia definitely gives the lynchers town credit. No, it does not clear them. NOBODY is suggesting that. But this is not a game of definitives, it is not a game of absolute knowledge (cops notwithstanding).
We lynched Mafia. How would you use this info? Are you seriously going to argue that Mafia day 1 bussed their JACK OF ALL TRADES? What in the world.
No, it doesn't clear the wagon at all. Mafia could have jumped on late if they thought the lynch was inevitable. Maybe it really was the biggest gambit thus far on f.ds. Maybe there are multiple scum teams, and there are scum on the wagon from a different team. These are all possibilities and town players cannot know with certainty.
But we have to build our reads somehow. We have to make use of the info we have. And here you are freaking proposing that we ignore all the info we have and then you vote for someone who actually builds a strong case? What in the world.
What would you have said if we had lynched town? That on-wagon was no scummier than off-wagon? Are you saying that the lynch is worthless for us? Holy smokes. You just went from a tiny blip to a huge glowing spot on my scum radar.
Munch #1748 -- Possibilities include that Munch is on the level with this post, or scum jumping at the derailment handed to him on the plate. Not really sure what to make of it. But I do find it suspicious that Munch chooses not to respond to any of Galzria's strong case (that even has defender shraeye confessing to doubts).
ashersky #1749 -- What in the world.
Gonna post this as it is now and continue reading. That was just page 70; didn't realize I would have so much to say. Moving onto 71 now.
One question here though -- shraeye, did you ever comment on the Grujah wagon even as it was happening?
I suppose the rest of these pages are going to be exciting...
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For D3 after I die:
Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma
Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye
Wanted to get that on the record.
@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.
What have I done to obtain a townread worth a shout pole?
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For D3 after I die:
Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma
Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye
Wanted to get that on the record.
@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.
What have I done to obtain a townread worth a shout pole?
That ! was an iPad typing error.
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that's mildly disappointing :)
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@eHalc, I stand by the math of my argument, especially for those on wagon. If you are town, and you were on the Grujah wagon, and you believe there was scum on the wagon with you, you have a better chance of finding them.
So if your odds are better on the wagon, why continue with the strong push off, unless you have a reason to redirect attention?
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Page 71.
Munch #1751 and #1752 -- What posts of yours contradict which points in Galzria's case? I haven't seen anything contradictory in your behaviour, and Galzria's case includes posts you made d2 as well.
ashersky #1757 -- You just sound so, so survivalist, in a bad way. Is your whole reaction to Galz because he is suggesting looking off-wagon, and you were off-wagon? You weren't even in his cross-hairs.
yuma #1758 -- I find your rankings of Morgrim and shraeye quite odd. I disagree with the others though I can understand how you might come to those conclusions, but what kind of read do you have on Morgrim that you mark him as "likely to be scum"? Morgrim is eternally inscrutable to me. And why do you think shraeye is unlikely to be scum given the buddying with Munch that Galz pointed out? Seems a little inconsistent, given your ranking of Munch. Maybe you're won over by shraeye's cases on other players you find scummy. Hm. But seriously -- Morgrim read? How even? Can you explain a little more?
Are you looking for a full analysis on jo? I did a bit of it in #1537, but not a full re-read analysis.
I will defend Voltaire a bit here. He was busy enough that he dropped out of RMM3 just as it began. I wouldn't count his absence now as all that scummy.
Yeah, your points on Morgrim are really weak. Town Morgrim fits that description too. You should know better.
ashersky #1760 -- My reaction is still "what in the world". The difference between 11 and 10 is extremely small. You can have reads on people off-wagon as well, to reduce the field there. Is your argument that we should always hunt on-wagon? Then scum wins simply by ditching every wagon before it goes to lynch. But seriously -- what in the world? Your logic is just so bad. So so bad.
ashersky #1763 -- What in the world. If you were lynched and flipped town, certainly we would look on your wagon. Likewise, since we lynched Grujah and he flipped scum, certainly we should look off of his wagon. How do you logic?
sparky #1767 --
This isn't a bastard game. I doubt there are any roles that are obscenely powerful.
Bussing isn't really bussing unless your partner is actually lynched. Voting for your partner is better to do early in the day, when you can have cred for voting for scum (if he flips later) but you also have ample time to change your vote. But all this is moot because you're talking about Morgrim.
Certainly there may be scum sitting back and just watching. If you think this is the case, call out those lurkers. I hope you're not suggesting that we give the scummy players a pass because probably not all of them are actually scum.
Munch #1768 --
1) Subtle defense, etc. And Galz pointed out the inconsistencies in your voting history. You seem to be ignoring it.
2) Nope, nobody was saying "everyone on the wagon is town". Who did you give town credit to, exactly? Your analysis of the lynch wagon is almost entirely negative. At best, you have neutral comments for people. You criticize everyone who voted for Grujah and call the whole wagon "really flaky". I see no positive statements, no town credit given.
Munch #1772, 1773 -- I don't put any stock in the "we lynched town" typo. Easy mistake to make for anyone. But I don't really see much actual content in post #1770. Basically all you said was, "I was wrong, I do think we should look off-wagon". Doesn't mean much to me because you haven't put any effort into that front; you've only agreed with others as they made cases.
cayvie #1774 --
Why are you coming in with this question and not offering a comment on the NUMEROUS big, compelling cases?
I'll answer your question anyway. At this point, I don't think there is a cult in the game. My reasons:
- Robz is smart. He knows cults are basically only in bastard games.
- Before game started, this very fact was pointed out by at least one player.
- Eevee was semi-naive alignment cop. The information he shared about a recruiting faction might have been part of that naivety. Eevee's role could be a reference to Ozle's game where he thought there were werewolves. Maybe Eevee's ability let him learn if someone was cult or not. Or if their alignment had changed? I could see that being called "semi-naive" by Robz.
Random thoughts -- I meant to mention this earlier, but we should be careful about what we consider "buddying". I have defended ehunt and he has defended me. Meh. So I wouldn't consider the buddying between Munch and shraeye to be that bad, unless one of them flips scum.
Now on to page 72...
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only thing I really have to contribute is that eHalc is on the ball.
3 AM IS AWESOME
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I find it hilarious that everyone is focused on me and munch, since we're the of the few that are active. Everyone else, mafia and town, are just sitting back and relaxing.
On Munch, seems scummy, but no real read past what everyone else is saying about him. On cults, I have no clue. In a town this size, I'd guess there are more than two NKs available to people; maybe some chose not to shoot, or hit doc/jk targets, etc.?
Something I'm thinking. With HUGE posts such as Galz's case on theMunch, how on earth are scum going to counter that? Just say "eh, what Galz said"? We've sucked all the evidence out of current potential scum. The only way someone can contribute to a case is to CHALLENGE it. It's easy to agree when you're scum, because you wanna go with the flow and not gather much suspicion. Challenge an opinion that everyone else seems fond of, and you've got yourself a big risk because you just garnered attention in a bad way. Challenging opinions is how we get discussion going. Does scum have the guts though to challenge posts that are bigger than Gangnam Style?
WOp Wop Wop WOIp oopppah
@munch -- haven't been called out for anything yet, let alone lurking. Look at you own numbers, I am not in the bottom, by any means.
Tunneling town is anti-town. So, I'd suggest scum hunting, instead of focusing just on me. I am just being honest here--check my previous games if you don't believe me. My wagon will be fairly worthless when I flip town.
Those words don't mean anything.
sparky #1767 --
This isn't a bastard game. I doubt there are any roles that are obscenely powerful.
Bussing isn't really bussing unless your partner is actually lynched. Voting for your partner is better to do early in the day, when you can have cred for voting for scum (if he flips later) but you also have ample time to change your vote. But all this is moot because you're talking about Morgrim.
Certainly there may be scum sitting back and just watching. If you think this is the case, call out those lurkers. I hope you're not suggesting that we give the scummy players a pass because probably not all of them are actually scum.
That wouldn't be a very good suggestion from me at all; on the flip side of what I mentioned earlier, what are the odds that NONE of Dsell, Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, shraeye, and Young Nick are scum. We very likely have scum nailed here, but it's also very likely that some of the scum aren't gathering much heat at the moment. I guess this tidbit of information is more useful in later days than now, cause right now we can focus on who's gathering the heat. Besides I can't even provide a definite list on who's avoiding the heat because SO many players are doing it. What will be worth investigating is who continues to avoid the heat in future days.
That isn't very helpful I realize that.
Let me focus on VOTE: ashersky for now. My strongest scumread at the moment.
For D3 after I die:
Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma
Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye
Wanted to get that on the record.
@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.
You're still far away from being lynched. How do you know for CERTAIN you will die?
Last thing, is it even worth it to analyze buddying when we're not certain of players' alignments? Like with theMunch and shraeye, instead of Grujah and Dsell, let's say. Newbie question.
Clearly the only time I can contribute to mafia is at 3 in the morning when my posts don't make any sense at all WOOHOO.
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Page 72.
Galzria #1777 -- Agreed. However, if there was a Cult, I think it is more likely that Eevee was anti-cult and something BAD would happen to them if Eevee were recruited. It would be a way of keeping the cult in check.
cayvie #1787 --
Huh, interesting. I don't think the example you point out is so bad though. I did not get a scum-on-scum feeling on Galz from that case.
I'm still not sure why you asked about cults though. You think Galz is a cult leader, like in RMMI?
Munch #1790 -- Huh? Watno's assertion is no crazier than suggesting that scum may have been bussing Grujah, which you seemed to be concerned about earlier.
ashersky #1791 -- Have you not been reading the cases that have been posted? If you believe people are sitting back, call them out. People are focused on you and Munch because you both have been quite scummy. Your scumminess went way up when you basically started advocating giving people off wagon a pass. Maybe you don't think that's what you're doing, but you are arguing that we should always lynch on wagon because it is smaller. And that's just ridiculous.
ashersky #1797 -- Ugh, seriously?
"Tunneling town is anti-town". Unless you are a mason, nobody knows that you are town. All we know is that you are acting scummy. Moreover, nobody is tunneling you. The biggest cases are not on you. Why are you so defensive?
Focusing on you IS scum-hunting. Just like focusing on Munch, or Dsell, or Young Nick -- take your pick of any of the big cases that have been posted recently. It's not like everyone is sitting around saying, "gosh, ashersky sure is scummy for not being on the lynch wagon." People are posting actual cases on many players. Why are you not commenting on those at all?
What exactly are you being honest about here? What should we check previous games for if we don't believe you? That you made a statement saying we should always hunt on-wagon, even if the wagon lynched Mafia? Feel free to link that post of yours.
If you flipped town, your wagon would not be worthless. We would have a wagon that could be analyzed. We would have your thoughts, illogical though some of them may be. The only reason it might be worth less (not worthless, just worth less) is because you have been acting so, so anti-town that it would be hard to fault anyone for voting for you. Or on the flip side, it would be easy for scum to not vote for you, because you are scummy enough that the lynch will happen without their help. Ugh.
Not as much to comment on this page, so on to page 73.
ashersky #1801 -- Uhh, why do you have a town read on jo now? Earlier, you VOTED for him because he said that it was better to scumhunt off wagon. Now, you are voting for Galz for the same thing. Similarly, shraeye admitted that the early votes on jo for that statement were ridiculous and that it was better to look off wagon. So why do you have a town read on jo and shraeye? Seems extremely inconsistent to me.
jo #1802 -- I disagree. ashersky burst onto the scene when Munch was getting a lot of heat. Distraction much? They haven't really had much of a fight. They continue to snip at each other, but who does ash vote for? Galzria. Not Munch.
ashersky #1812 --
Man, seriously, what in the world? It is most likely that scum did not bus their PR. How do you not understand that? Suppose that a scum team has 4 people on it. Suppose 1 of Grujah's buddies bussed him. There were 12 people on Grujah's wagon. There were 13 not on the wagon. If we subtract out the dead players, there are 10 on wagon and 11 off wagon. The odds of finding 2/11 are nearly twice as good as finding 1/10. If I subtract myself, 2/11 is still better than 1/9.
Who on the wagon do I consider townie? Sure, I can take them out of the running. I have a town read on ehunt and Galz now. There are also some neutral reads, but that's not enough to remove them. So my odds are now 1/7. Guess what? 2/11 is still better.
But hey, why not reduce the off-wagon as well? I have a town on cayvie, after all. So now my odds are 20% off-wagon, 14% on-wagon, and that's being very generous to on-wagon and ignoring the STRONG scum reads on players off-wagon.
OK, now we can factor in the possibility of other scum teams. But do you really think there are more on the wagon than off? Eh. Possible. Also possible that they left it alone in case it was a townie lynch, since day 1 lynchees are almost invariably townies. Wouldn't it be nicer to be able to point fingers at all those on the wagon, when your scum team is off the wagon? So this is a non-factor to me in this analysis.
Do I believe that there was scum on the wagon? I believe it is a possibility. But the numbers favour looking off the wagon, and that isn't even considering scum reads stemming from numerous other sources. These cases that people are making are not just "you are off the wagon, therefore you are scum."
To cap this math lesson off, we could put the same question to you. Do you believe Grujah's entire team bussed their PR? If you are town, and you were NOT on the Grujah wagon, and you believe there was scum NOT on the wagon with you, you have a better chance of finding them OFF the wagon. So if your odds are better OFF the wagon, why continue with the strong push on, unless you have a reason to redirect attention?
sparky #1814 --
Thanks.
Is the first response to ashersky saying that ash is town for making a poor argument, or saying that ash is just really gutsy scum?
Any reason why you just voted for ashersky over Munch?
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cayvie #1787 --
Huh, interesting. I don't think the example you point out is so bad though. I did not get a scum-on-scum feeling on Galz from that case.
I'm still not sure why you asked about cults though. You think Galz is a cult leader, like in RMMI?
It was a thought, yes.
I asked about cults because, if they're around, we need to deal with them immediately in order to have a chance. Honestly, though, just thinking about how to do that makes me realize that we don't really have a chance at all if there's a cult about. So I guess the thing to do is play as if there isn't a cult and hope we're right?
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Also, my gut suspicion of Galzria was later tempered when I remembered the whole business with the wine.
OHHHH I also JUST remembered that Eevee said he had something special that happened when he was on a scumlynch. I bet he was 100% sure of his target's alignment then. (Naive when he wasn't on a scumlynch, accurate when he was).
I'm going to park a vote: ehunt because I don't think he's getting lynched anytime soon. I think I'll just use my vote to indicate my strongest townread unless I am needed for a deadline hammer.
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cayvie #1787 --
Huh, interesting. I don't think the example you point out is so bad though. I did not get a scum-on-scum feeling on Galz from that case.
I'm still not sure why you asked about cults though. You think Galz is a cult leader, like in RMMI?
It was a thought, yes.
I asked about cults because, if they're around, we need to deal with them immediately in order to have a chance. Honestly, though, just thinking about how to do that makes me realize that we don't really have a chance at all if there's a cult about. So I guess the thing to do is play as if there isn't a cult and hope we're right?
I said basically the same thing d1. :P
Are you going to respond to any of the big cases that have been posted?
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Also, my gut suspicion of Galzria was later tempered when I remembered the whole business with the wine.
OHHHH I also JUST remembered that Eevee said he had something special that happened when he was on a scumlynch. I bet he was 100% sure of his target's alignment then. (Naive when he wasn't on a scumlynch, accurate when he was).
I'm going to park a vote: ehunt because I don't think he's getting lynched anytime soon. I think I'll just use my vote to indicate my strongest townread unless I am needed for a deadline hammer.
I am pretty sure I mentioned that about Eevee early today. But I like your theory about the semi-naive modifier.
Parking a vote on your TOWN read is just asking for terrible misinterpretations down the line. Why is your ehunt your strongest town read?
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My current reads are....
Townish:
cayvie -- but, she is slowly falling into a null read since it feels like she isn't contributing very much at all. Waiting for her to comment on the big cases that we have. Also off the wagon, but with an odd excuse that, if true, could very well be a scum thing anyway. Hm.
Galzria -- very thoughtful cases on multiple players.
ehunt -- he's just seemed townie to me the whole game.
Null:
ftl -- was on Gruj wagon, but somewhat late. Feels lurky.
Voltaire -- he's just been away for so long I don't remember his play much at all.
Axxle -- late on Gruj wagon, but he was the hammer VIA double vote.
shraeye -- Seems to defend Munch way too much. A few opinions that seem inconsistent (e.g. Munch not-scummy vs. ashersky no-lynch defenses of/redirections from Grujah). Nonetheless, he made several cases that I thought were quite good.
Cuzz -- I don't really remember much of anything he's done...
yuma -- on the upper end (close to town read) but I'm actually having trouble remembering his comments and positions though I know he has not been inactive.
Morgrim -- he will always be a null read to me.
Watno -- Like yuma, though more neutral than "close to town read".
Captain_Frisk -- Like watno.
Slightly scummy:
sparky -- Volt was a bit weird on day 1 and sparky's posts have just felt a little bit off to me. But this is a slight feeling only.
Insomniac -- mostly instinct here... some weird interactions and such.
jotheonah -- Morgrim-hunting when Grujah wagon was building. Did switch to Grujah in the end, but very late.
theorel -- not like him to post so little... I know he replaced into a big game, but still.
Scummy:
Dsell -- well covered, I think.
Young Nick -- off the Gruj wagon, and a comment at the time felt very much like trying to redirect attention away from Gruj.
Munch -- very well covered.
ashersky -- desire to focus attention ON the successful wagon, seems super defensive when people weren't focused on him at all.
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My current reads are....
Townish:
cayvie -- but, she is slowly falling into a null read since it feels like she isn't contributing very much at all. Waiting for her to comment on the big cases that we have. Also off the wagon, but with an odd excuse that, if true, could very well be a scum thing anyway. Hm.
I'm thinking, dude, I'm thinking.
As I said, I think Galz's case against TheMunch is strong. I also think he argued it oddly, but I think I've decided that's neither here nor there.
I would support a TheMunch lynch over an ashersky lynch, though they are both probably in my top 5 for scum.
I feel odd about ftl (just seems like he's not really here), but his presence on the Grujah wagon helps him out there.
Looking back at the people off the wagon, I want to reread Insomniac.
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I reread Insomniac.
I think he's town. He hasn't been here in four days.
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There's people like Cuzz, who has posted 3 times day 2, with little content, but who still gives me a frustrating town read.
There's people like Frisk, who doesn't even seem to be trying, and makes mildly snarky comments at those who are.
There's people like me. I keep looking at this thread and trying to make something come of it, but it just seems like a big impenetrable block.
I think what I was picking up from Galz was frustration.
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Welcome back eHal. I have a lot to say to you so I'm just organizing my responses by the post you called me out on.
@1751, 1752, and 1748: Given that Galz had already said that most recent posts of mine at the time might have swayed him, I would rather have seen a defence if any come from him instead of me. But I decide to give it when he makes no indication that thats going to happen.
1768 and 1772/1773: Theres not much content in the post cause its just me setting the record straight. Yes I was wrong, and I'm a big enough man to admit it when its the case. The point of this post was to say it is believable that I got derailed in the way that I did. I had mentioned I was a proponent of "not counting out that there are no scum on the wagon" AND "look at the people who where were actively pushing against the grujah wagon". I just convinced myself that there was an huge tribe against me and I got completely derailed in the name of proving myself right.
1790: Hey, eHal, are you actually agreeing with watno that I was buddying with Ashersky? I really dont think anyone could make this claim. That is what I was calling crazy.
Back to 1772/1773: You end this by saying "Doesn't mean much to me because you haven't put any effort into that front". This is just wrong. The only case that I've sheeped is Galz' Dsell case, but I dont think I'm the only one sheeping any of Galz' cases. They are strong and easily sheeped, yet you give no one else gets flack from sheeping his cases. Be consistent. Its either ok for all of us to sheep Galz or no one. But thats the only case I've sheeped. I was the first one to make a case on Young Nick (This got completely covered up because on the next page Shraeye makes a stronger Galz-Style analysis). I have also been now looking hard on ashersky cause a lot of his recent behavior has been very scummy to me. My main three suspicions and cases I have been pushing are on Dsell/Ashersky/YoungNick (at least when I'm not constantly defending myself) and last I checked those are off wagon cases. But you said I haven't been looking off wagon so I must be making it up (protip: I'm not making it up)
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Semi caught up. As per usual I was away this weekend (I won a 3 player game of twilight imperium if you want specifics), and this game is too large for me to be as involved as other games. There are still 20 people alive!
RobZ - we need a vote count. I enjoyed Galz's case on themunch, and would be interested / willing to vote, but while it looks like he has "alot" of votes, I don't want to accidentally hammer.
Can someone summarize the asher case?
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I enjoyed Galz's case on me too, but I'm curious if you actually think that I was defending Grujah and why (probably the biggest problem I have with his case; I never defended Grujah)? Also whether my defense of Galz' argument has mattered at all?
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I enjoyed Galz's case on me too, but I'm curious if you actually think that I was defending Grujah and why (probably the biggest problem I have with his case; I never defended Grujah)? Also whether my defense of Galz' argument has mattered at all?
Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
I agree with this. Although my read on Grujah isnt town, its nothing.
Vote: TheMunch
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Serious Question: How did I defend Grujah in that post?
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You're expressing concern about the speed of the wagon (ie. it must be scum driven to be gaining traction so fast!), while doing your best to not say anything about him that can be held against you later when he flips scum.
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I think I was agreeing with the notion that he wanted the day to be over (I think in nearby posts I was also expressing some other feelings of being overwhelmed by how much had happened and how difficult it was becoming to analyze 50+ pages of content. This is in 1442 "This shit is hard". I agree with Joth after this in 1458, hence it is more likely that I'm telling the truth and just agreeing with his desire for the day to be early because I had already expressed this opinion). He expressed wanting the day to be over but not knowing whether or not he was willing to vote for Grujah (although he wasn't voting cause he had a town read on Grujah; I specifically indicated that that was not the case for me. A neutral read is not a town read). I similarly wanted the day to be over but I didn't have a read on Grujah; I expressed no desire for him NOT to be lynched or pushed attention elsewhere or tried to derail the wagon, I just didn't vote. However I can see why there is some ambiguity regarding what I agree with (could have been agreeing with the speed of the wagon) but I think my explanation is corroborated by my feelings at the time expressed in adjacent posts.
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Sorry I haven't been here guys it's Thanksgiving weekend up here in Canada. I don't have a lot to contribute that hasn't already been said, theres a lot of people in this game still and I appreciate the work that some people have been putting into this game with rereads and cases. If I were to vote right now it would be for TheMunch but I'm going to reread day 2 either today or tomorrow.
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Additionally I wanted to say since I saw it that I do not think Robz would include cults, and I would agree to yuma's soft deadline of thursday.
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I'm also in favor with a Thursday soft deadline, for all of the reasons we discussed day 1. We still have way to many people to reliably count on majority lynch
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Noticed some people correctly pointing out my lack of activity on D2. Just popping in to say sorry for my absence. Combination of falling behind a bit, wanting to catch up fully before posting, and then getting super busy irl. Will catch up and be more involved beginning tonight.
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To answer your couple of ?'s eHalc:
ashersky #1791 -- Have you not been reading the cases that have been posted? If you believe people are sitting back, call them out. People are focused on you and Munch because you both have been quite scummy. Your scumminess went way up when you basically started advocating giving people off wagon a pass. Maybe you don't think that's what you're doing, but you are arguing that we should always lynch on wagon because it is smaller. And that's just ridiculous.
My vote of ashersky is a result of his over-defensiveness and with him providing arguments such as like, "why is everyone going for me and the munch?" without providing much depth into strong alternatives. Posts such as #1791 that I pointed out signify that he hasn't provided much detail into his arguments.
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Vote Count 2.6
ashersky (4) -- Cuzz, watno, TheMunch, sparky5856
TheMunch (8 ) -- eHalcyon, ftl, Dsell, Galzria, ehunt, yuma, jotheonah, Captain_Frisk (L-3)
Dsell (1) -- Morgrim7
Young Nick (1) -- shraeye
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (5) -- Insomniac, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, theorel
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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Oh wow. L-3. Thats cool. And L-2 if you include that Insomniac wantst to vote for me. So I guess its time to say this: if anyone tried to kill me night 1, then ehalcyon is scum.
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Oh wow. L-3. Thats cool. And L-2 if you include that Insomniac wantst to vote for me. So I guess its time to say this: if anyone tried to kill me night 1, then ehalcyon is scum.
unvote
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Alright, given where we're at in the day, and it's potential to end before I get a chance to chime in again, it's time to reveal who I gave the WIFOM to:
Dsell
Yesterday when he pushed for my lynch, I really did get a town read from him, but I wanted to confirm it. Unfortunately, as stated, I did not choose to drink the Wine, while he did - so we did not exchange information. However, D2 dawned with me still alive, so there's a modicum of trust that I must have towards him. Had he been scum who was concerned with sharing information, he could've killed me during the night and the Wine never would've been revealed.
This is the primary reason I see TheMunch's total collection of actions more scummy than Dsell. When I wrote the case for Dsell, I knew it was harsh - but I wanted to be fair and truthful. As many noted at that time, it was pretty damning. But for me, the simple fact that I lived forces me to consider that he was "misguided townie" instead of "redirecting scum".
Certainly there are other factors that I may not be aware of. Maybe he DID attempt to kill me, but somebody Doctored me. Obviously I can't know - and I don't want to - but my hope is that through the nature of the Wine itself, the truth will come out.
I don't think it's wise for Dsell to announce who he will give the Wine to (He may have already submitted a name - I don't know), because I don't want to present a target on that players back. But it's important that we keep track of the item so that it doesn't slip into an infinite scum loop (ie. We force it to keep moving to a new player instead of letting scum secretly give it to each other each night).
My initial thought was that the current bearer each night (in this case Dsell) should be Doctored while the recipient is kept secret, thus maximizing the chances that both live to the next day to give accounts of the other player. However I am content to listen to other suggestions as well.
I think the one thing we can all agree on is that "Don't Drink" should be the default, and anybody who Drinks is obvscum - same as anybody who gives the Wine to eHunt.
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Alright, given where we're at in the day, and it's potential to end before I get a chance to chime in again, it's time to reveal who I gave the WIFOM to:
Dsell
Yesterday when he pushed for my lynch, I really did get a town read from him, but I wanted to confirm it. Unfortunately, as stated, I did not choose to drink the Wine, while he did - so we did not exchange information. However, D2 dawned with me still alive, so there's a modicum of trust that I must have towards him. Had he been scum who was concerned with sharing information, he could've killed me during the night and the Wine never would've been revealed.
This is the primary reason I see TheMunch's total collection of actions more scummy than Dsell. When I wrote the case for Dsell, I knew it was harsh - but I wanted to be fair and truthful. As many noted at that time, it was pretty damning. But for me, the simple fact that I lived forces me to consider that he was "misguided townie" instead of "redirecting scum".
Certainly there are other factors that I may not be aware of. Maybe he DID attempt to kill me, but somebody Doctored me. Obviously I can't know - and I don't want to - but my hope is that through the nature of the Wine itself, the truth will come out.
I don't think it's wise for Dsell to announce who he will give the Wine to (He may have already submitted a name - I don't know), because I don't want to present a target on that players back. But it's important that we keep track of the item so that it doesn't slip into an infinite scum loop (ie. We force it to keep moving to a new player instead of letting scum secretly give it to each other each night).
My initial thought was that the current bearer each night (in this case Dsell) should be Doctored while the recipient is kept secret, thus maximizing the chances that both live to the next day to give accounts of the other player. However I am content to listen to other suggestions as well.
I think the one thing we can all agree on is that "Don't Drink" should be the default, and anybody who Drinks is obvscum - same as anybody who gives the Wine to eHunt.
I confirm and agree with all of this.
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Galz - if you refused to drink, and endorse no-one else drinking it in the future, then who cares if it falls into a scum loop?
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Galz - if you refused to drink, and endorse no-one else drinking it in the future, then who cares if it falls into a scum loop?
my understanding is that drink vs. not-drink is not what's relevant. what's relevant is that you produce the same answer as the person to whom you gave the wine.
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Galz - if you refused to drink, and endorse no-one else drinking it in the future, then who cares if it falls into a scum loop?
my understanding is that drink vs. not-drink is not what's relevant. what's relevant is that you produce the same answer as the person to whom you gave the wine.
This is correct.
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But what if drinking has a side effect that requires kickball posting?
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Galz - if you refused to drink, and endorse no-one else drinking it in the future, then who cares if it falls into a scum loop?
my understanding is that drink vs. not-drink is not what's relevant. what's relevant is that you produce the same answer as the person to whom you gave the wine.
Correct. It had been proposed that the default be 'Drink', but out of concern that it might be Cult-related we switched it to 'Don't Drink'. Ultimately it doesn't matter for the information to be shared, as long as the choice is the same.
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Catching upppppp.......... man a lot happens fast here.
Galz's case on Munch is convincing, I'm keeping my vote there.
Thursday soft deadline is a good idea, it worked great last time.
Has Voltaire still not posted for all of D2? Robz, please prod Voltaire Plz nobody hammer until he posts, if he's still playing.
I'd rather have 'drink' rather than 'no drink' as a consensus for wine since come on, who doesn't want a drink after slogging through this many posts ;) (<-- is not serious proposal, I'll go along with the no drink consensus. C_F, based on what I understand from the description, as long as both people choose the same option then it doesn't matter what option it was)
OK so maybe not a lot happens fast here, there' been like so many pages but they didn't change my opinions on who to vote for, Munch looks super-scummy to me after Galz's case. ash's D1 doesn't look good but today he looks sort of like a flailing townie to me, more so than munch.
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struggling a bit to keep up, but I still think it's a bad idea to keep the wine in the game. I do not believe revealing role information to people of unknown alignment is a protown move.
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Munch - can you explain your ehalc thing? A vague hint isn't really enough to make me unvote.
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Catching upppppp.......... man a lot happens fast here.
Galz's case on Munch is convincing, I'm keeping my vote there.
Thursday soft deadline is a good idea, it worked great last time.
Has Voltaire still not posted for all of D2? Robz, please prod Voltaire Plz nobody hammer until he posts, if he's still playing.
I'd rather have 'drink' rather than 'no drink' as a consensus for wine since come on, who doesn't want a drink after slogging through this many posts ;) (<-- is not serious proposal, I'll go along with the no drink consensus. C_F, based on what I understand from the description, as long as both people choose the same option then it doesn't matter what option it was)
OK so maybe not a lot happens fast here, there' been like so many pages but they didn't change my opinions on who to vote for, Munch looks super-scummy to me after Galz's case. ash's D1 doesn't look good but today he looks sort of like a flailing townie to me, more so than munch.
I am evaluating options in the Voltaire situation.
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struggling a bit to keep up, but I still think it's a bad idea to keep the wine in the game. I do not believe revealing role information to people of unknown alignment is a protown move.
What on earth? Roles would not be outed here. Alignment will not be explicitly revealed as I initially thought, but the idea is to use the descriptions we learn to try to determine alignment and then tell the town what you think. If I pass it to you, I'm not gonna say the next day, "Axxle has such-and-such description, I think this makes him town/mafia." At least I don't think that's how it should be done. I think it should be, "Based on Axxle's description, it seems to me that he's town." And then you would be able to disagree or agree or point out why it's townie or whatever.
I don't think it's a good plan at all to make the descriptions public, unless it is highly contested/impossible to determine alignment (but seems scummy). These are all things we'll have to deal with when we cross those bridges, but obviously town players are not going to go around outing their PRs.
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I'll replace him.
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struggling a bit to keep up, but I still think it's a bad idea to keep the wine in the game. I do not believe revealing role information to people of unknown alignment is a protown move.
What on earth? Roles would not be outed here. Alignment will not be explicitly revealed as I initially thought, but the idea is to use the descriptions we learn to try to determine alignment and then tell the town what you think. If I pass it to you, I'm not gonna say the next day, "Axxle has such-and-such description, I think this makes him town/mafia." At least I don't think that's how it should be done. I think it should be, "Based on Axxle's description, it seems to me that he's town." And then you would be able to disagree or agree or point out why it's townie or whatever.
I don't think it's a good plan at all to make the descriptions public, unless it is highly contested/impossible to determine alignment (but seems scummy). These are all things we'll have to deal with when we cross those bridges, but obviously town players are not going to go around outing their PRs.
Furthermore, the information is a two-way street. If you're passing the wine to mafia, ideally you'll be able to tell that they're mafia. If that's the case, you can out them as scum and then woohoo. It may reveal a PR to scum, but it would (hopefully) get a mafioso too.
However, if someone is a PR and they don't want to reveal their role to mafia, it's a good idea for them to pass it to someone they believe seems town. This way we can perhaps build a chain of semi-confirmed town.
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However, if someone is a PR and they don't want to reveal their role to mafia, it's a good idea for them to pass it to someone they believe seems town. This way we can perhaps build a chain of semi-confirmed town.
By role I mean description. The wine only allows players to share description, nothing else. So it's up to everyone to look at their descriptions and ask themselves if it directly reveals their role/alignment/whatever and play accordingly.
So if I'm a PR and my description makes that pretty clear, I might pass to someone who seems townie so we can confirm each other without letting scum know about the PR. If I'm a PR and my description doesn't reveal my role, I might take more risk in who I pass it to, maybe even trying to find scum. A VT may do the same. However, my personal opinion is that the wine should be passed among players who seem town (so we can get that pseudo-townie chain going) for a while. Then maybe on a later day pass it to someone quite suspicious. All this is because if wine is passed to scum and the wine-passer gets the town to lynch that scum, I think the wine will be out of the game. So it's likely only good for catching scum once.
I think it's a bad idea for anyone to pass it to ehunt.
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The Wine technically passes before the lynch Dsell - so if, for example, we lynched you today, the Wine would still pass on assuming you had submitted a name. I guess technically as scum you could choose not to submit a name if you thought you were going to get lynched. Hmm...
So it should always pass amongst town, but you're right that it might only catch one scum.
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Munch #1824 --
When did Galz say that now? What defense are you talking about?
You are completely reading Watno's comment wrong. He said you might be distancing from scumbuddy ashersky. And that is completely plausible. He did not say you two were buddying.
If you have posted any cases, please do link them. I don't remember anything from you like that. I don't have a problem with you sheeping/agreeing with others' cases -- my problem is that you keep saying you've been contributing when I just haven't seen that from you. Maybe I missed it -- what's the post numbers for your contributions?
You said you were the first to make a case on Young Nick. When? Are you talking about #1722? Because I beat you to that one by a long shot, and your short post is just barely a case. I called out Young Nick for that post back when I analysed all the people who had behaved strangely when Munch's wagon got rolling.
You keep making it seem like you've put in hard work, but you simply haven't. The most work you did was when you criticized everyone on the Grujah wagon. You refer repeatedly to recent posts that contradict Galz's case, but what posts are these? You provide no numbers for those posts.
Munch #1826 and numerous posts after -- I don't know why you keep asking if people think you defended Grujah, or how it was a defense. You did defend Grujah, and multiple people have explained how it constitutes a defense, include Galz and myself.
Cuzz #1834 -- Good. There's lots to talk about.
Munch #1837 -- You make no sense at all.
Galzria #1839 -- OK, that's enough that I'm OK to let Dsell go for now. Munch and ash are far scummier at this time anyway.
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To clarify my claim: I have an Item which gives me the ability to "copy" people and I get bonus' based on their allignment (which is not told to me). I get protection if I "copy" a scum player. So if someone tried to kill me, since I am alive, that means that eHal is Scum.
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So you are hoping that a vig comes out and claims that they tried to kill you?
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To clarify my claim: I have an Item which gives me the ability to "copy" people and I get bonus' based on their allignment (which is not told to me). I get protection if I "copy" a scum player. So if someone tried to kill me, since I am alive, that means that eHal is Scum.
Interesting claim. But what exactly do you "copy" about people?
I am town, so what would you have gotten for that?
And how in the world does copying scum == becoming bulletproof?
This looks to me like a desperate distraction thrown into the mix when pretty much everyone recognizes how scummy you have been.
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I realize that the only people who could have killed me are people who would never say they killed me. But I'm just saying thats the power I have and its the truth. It is not meant as a distraction from anything. I put copy in quotes just cause thats the word Robz used. I in no way become their role. Its just that I get the benefit if I "copy" scum. I'm not saying the correlation is awesome. But its the truth.
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ANNOUNCEMENT: Voltaire has not posted since Day 1, and has been away from the forum since October 1st. I have replaced him with O. I do not foresee this creating any conflict, but I apologize for any confusion.
To recap: sparky5856 replaced Voltgloss
theorel replaced ibgtennis
O the second replaced Voltaire
We'll just call this a cautionary tale regarding the (unlikely to be repeated) 25-person-game setup.
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O - assuming you're about to do a full re-read.... time it for me.
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I take it O can't give us any insight into his old self?
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eHal, I missed your question regarding what would happen if you are town. It depends on what your role is. I dont know your role so I dont know what would happen.
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I take it O can't give us any insight into his old self?
New-O is prohibited from revealing certain details of previous-O's life.
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To clarify my claim: I have an Item which gives me the ability to "copy" people and I get bonus' based on their allignment (which is not told to me). I get protection if I "copy" a scum player. So if someone tried to kill me, since I am alive, that means that eHal is Scum.
eHal, I missed your question regarding what would happen if you are town. It depends on what your role is. I dont know your role so I dont know what would happen.
.....?
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The oddest rolefish ever if thats what it is.
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So, an incredibly convoluted claim, cool. I love backing off of people when they make crazy claims that I can't corroborate. Oh wait, I don't. So Munch is looking more scummish as I look at his defense. There seems to be too much franticness to it, and that really makes it feel like the squirmings of a scum-player. So here's me compensating for ehunts unvote. I'm not sure why a simple statement of any sort of power is worthy of an unvote. Robz promised that this game would be filled with many interesting. Having a power does not imply towniness.
Vote: TheMunch
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I see I forgot the word "things" after "interesting".
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No I dont care what his role is from a role fishing standpoint. I guess the most general way that I can put it is I give the person I copy the "strong" modifier so you dont get roleblocked but it also fixes bad cops (like Eevee) and misreads from investigating millers and such. So depending on what role he is, and whether or not he was stopped, or who he targetted or whatever, it would have worked/given correct information etc.
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Vote Count 2.7
ashersky (4) -- Cuzz, watno, TheMunch, sparky5856
TheMunch (8 ) -- eHalcyon, ftl, Dsell, Galzria, yuma, jotheonah, Captain_Frisk, shraeye (L-3)
Dsell (1) -- Morgrim7
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (6) -- Insomniac, Young Nick, Voltaire, Axxle, theorel, ehunt
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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No I dont care what his role is from a role fishing standpoint. I guess the most general way that I can put it is I give the person I copy the "strong" modifier so you dont get roleblocked but it also fixes bad cops (like Eevee) and misreads from investigating millers and such. So depending on what role he is, and whether or not he was stopped, or who he targetted or whatever, it would have worked/given correct information etc.
So now... instead of just you getting something, you can modify other players as well? Still not explaining the alignment vs. role inconsistency here.
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Unvote. I have to think about the implications of this claim and how easy it would be to fake as scum.
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It happens if you are town. Obv the outcome is different if you are getting role/blocked or not, and what your role is etc.
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No I dont care what his role is from a role fishing standpoint. I guess the most general way that I can put it is I give the person I copy the "strong" modifier so you dont get roleblocked but it also fixes bad cops (like Eevee) and misreads from investigating millers and such. So depending on what role he is, and whether or not he was stopped, or who he targetted or whatever, it would have worked/given correct information etc.
What is the name of the item?
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Went back and checked for a name. Apparently its not an item. Its a "passive ability".
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It happens if you are town. Obv the outcome is different if you are getting role/blocked or not, and what your role is etc.
So if they're scum, the outcome is always the same for you, but if they're town, the outcome affects them and varies based on their role?
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It happens if you are town. Obv the outcome is different if you are getting role/blocked or not, and what your role is etc.
So if they're scum, the outcome is always the same for you, but if they're town, the outcome affects them and varies based on their role?
Correct.
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Went back and checked for a name. Apparently its not an item. Its a "passive ability".
How is it a passive ability if you target someone with it?
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The roleclaim is at the same time too fantastic to be false and too poorly explained to be true.
I'm leaning toward this being a scum-role that TheMunch is attempting to spin as a town-role. That could also explain why he used to think it was an item but just now noticed that it's a passive ability (maybe the item has a name that makes it obviously mafia-associated).
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It happens if you are town. Obv the outcome is different if you are getting role/blocked or not, and what your role is etc.
So if they're scum, the outcome is always the same for you, but if they're town, the outcome affects them and varies based on their role?
Correct.
But its always the same in the sense that: your role will work and wont return false results etc etc.
PPE: The "copy" part is listed as part of my "active ability". The effects of the "copy" are listed as a "passive ability"
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The roleclaim is at the same time too fantastic to be false and too poorly explained to be true.
I'm leaning toward this being a scum-role that TheMunch is attempting to spin as a town-role. That could also explain why he used to think it was an item but just now noticed that it's a passive ability (maybe the item has a name that makes it obviously mafia-associated).
If I have a word in quotes it means I'm using the wording in Robz PM.
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TheMunch: can you reclaim in one post? Currently your claim seems to be spread out in several posts, it's a confusing enough claim as it is.
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You all thought you could get rid of me so easily...
I am prohibited from saying anything about my previous role, which is fine because there isn't much to say.
Ello der.
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He hasn't really fullclaimed if I understand this correctly - because he's not at L-1. He's been leaking information piecemeal.
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It happens if you are town. Obv the outcome is different if you are getting role/blocked or not, and what your role is etc.
So if they're scum, the outcome is always the same for you, but if they're town, the outcome affects them and varies based on their role?
Correct.
But its always the same in the sense that: your role will work and wont return false results etc etc.
PPE: The "copy" part is listed as part of my "active ability". The effects of the "copy" are listed as a "passive ability"
OK so now you have an active ability to "copy" people.
If you "copy" scum, you gain a "passive ability", which is really a bulletproof modifier for yourself.
If you "copy" town then you "fix" their ability? What if their ability doesn't need fixing? What if they don't even have an ability?
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This is weird.
Ok, here's my thinking, but Munch, do not do this until others agree that it's a good idea.
I think Munch should full claim, active and passive roles. If it seems fabricated, we lynch him, and he's either scum or scummy-as-all-get-out town (Munch, if you are town, you MUST realize that you have played an extremely scummy game). If the claim is believable, well obviously we shouldn't lynch him. That gives the mafia a chance to take out a power role and it also sort of gives them a chance to frame Munch by not killing him, but by doing that they are allowing him to survive longer. Heck, he might even self-doctor, in which case his power is a bit like an investigative.
Then we'll see where to go from there. Another unlikely-to-work plan: We leave Munch alive but have him tell us who he's going to "copy." If he dies tonight and is town, we'll have a confirmed townie. If Munch survives and there's one less kill (or a vig admits to shooting him or something), we'll have found town.
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Holy shit, i figured it out. Munch is SK.
Here's why. I'm assuming he's telling the complete truth on his claim. This is a ridiculous power to give any scum. Simply target your scummate, and boom, you're not killable. Ok, that's ridiculously overpowered.
It's also crazy overpowered if you're town. Simply target anyone and you are either strengthening their town power to make it work better, or gaining NK protection for yourself. Either way it's awesome for your faction. This becomes a really uninteresting and powerful power, where every choice helps town regardless.
But give credit to Robz. He built an exciting game. This is a complete SK power. Manage to find scum and you're safe for the evening, huzzah! So this incentivizes scumhunting. Accidently target a town power, and you make them even stronger and better able to stop you. Now he's actually faced with interesting choices and how strong his power is depends on how he uses it.
QED. Munch is a Serial Killer.
Guys, vote vote vote vote.
Vote: TheMunch
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TheMunch: can you reclaim in one post? Currently your claim seems to be spread out in several posts, it's a confusing enough claim as it is.
Sure.
Under my active ability I get to "copy" someone.
Under my passive ability there is a different outcome based on whether that person is town/scum. If they are scum, I am protected from dying. If they are town, I give them the "strong" modifier in a sense. All of their night actions will succeed and any false, anti town outcome (such as Eevee's semi-naive cop) will provide the correct response.
PPE: If they dont need fixing then nothing happens. It is just IF it would fail or give incorrect information, it succeeds or gives correct information.
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L-2. An Axxle vote hammers.
@Shraeye
I've turned that over in my head the last three irl days as a possibility given his actions this game. It's quite certainly possible with his role-claim.
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If he's SK mafia will kill him. If he's a PR mafia will probably kill him. That's unavoidable at this point since he's claimed.
He can tell us who he'll target every night to at least give us some info to work from.
I don't think he's a good lynch at this point.
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If he's SK mafia will kill him. If he's a PR mafia will probably kill him. That's unavoidable at this point since he's claimed.
He can tell us who he'll target every night to at least give us some info to work from.
I don't think he's a good lynch at this point.
Id be fine telling you guys. Tonight, if I survive, I will copy Ashersky for fear of my life, and I honestly think he is scum.
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L-2. An Axxle vote hammers.
@Shraeye
I've turned that over in my head the last three irl days as a possibility given his actions this game. It's quite certainly possible with his role-claim.
No, he's L4. Dsell unvoted and shraeye was already voting for him.
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If he's SK mafia will kill him. If he's a PR mafia will probably kill him. That's unavoidable at this point since he's claimed.
He can tell us who he'll target every night to at least give us some info to work from.
I don't think he's a good lynch at this point.
Id be fine telling you guys. Tonight, if I survive, I will copy Ashersky for fear of my life, edit: as I honestly think he is scum.
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NO QUICKHAMMERS PLEASE.
If he's mafia, things are admittedly a little tricky. However, that's not a mafia role, period. Either that's a fakeclaim or he's town or SK. If it's a fakeclaim it's a pretty good one.
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Derp, my warning against quickhammers is negated by the fact that he's at L-4.
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His ability does fit with a 25 person game in which RobZ is tailoring our roles to our meta. If he gives us all a bunch of shit roles that we need to juice up, that kindof makes sense.
Of course, the way munch has claimed here is super bad - piecemeal, and even then not copy pasting, but paraphrasing which makes me think he has something to hide.
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If he's SK mafia will kill him. If he's a PR mafia will probably kill him. That's unavoidable at this point since he's claimed.
He can tell us who he'll target every night to at least give us some info to work from.
I don't think he's a good lynch at this point.
If he targets scum, he doesn't die and gets his NK. I'm 100% convinced he's a SK, and that would mean that tonight we have one less town-death. I don't understand why a known SK would ever be a bad lynch. FoS: DSell.
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His ability does fit with a 25 person game in which RobZ is tailoring our roles to our meta. If he gives us all a bunch of shit roles that we need to juice up, that kindof makes sense.
Of course, the way munch has claimed here is super bad - piecemeal, and even then not copy pasting, but paraphrasing which makes me think he has something to hide.
I was only going so fast cause I was afraid I was going to die. I just wanted to get the information out there.
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If he's SK mafia will kill him. If he's a PR mafia will probably kill him. That's unavoidable at this point since he's claimed.
He can tell us who he'll target every night to at least give us some info to work from.
I don't think he's a good lynch at this point.
If he targets scum, he doesn't die and gets his NK. I'm 100% convinced he's a SK, and that would mean that tonight we have one less town-death. I don't understand why a known SK would ever be a bad lynch. FoS: DSell.
A known SK is often a bad lynch. And he's not a known SK, though there is some plausibility to that.
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MIV shows an example where lynching a serial killer results in town death.
The game setup in another game that's running now hints that the addition of a serial killer actually weakens mafia.
I'm not sure that lynching SK is bad, but its far from the "slam dunk do it all the time you idiots"
I'm also not sure that its QED that he's a serial killer, but I'm still voting him.
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L-2. An Axxle vote hammers.
@Shraeye
I've turned that over in my head the last three irl days as a possibility given his actions this game. It's quite certainly possible with his role-claim.
No, he's L4. Dsell unvoted and shraeye was already voting for him.
Sorry, missed the unvote and didn't realize Shraeye was already voting. But actually, Unvote for a moment until we decide what we want to do.
I'm leery of switching to Ashersky, who has been incredibly, incredibly scummy - but in a "town-freaking-out" kind of way. I'll need to start reexamining some other people.
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I should clarify: a SK is a bad lynch in endgame situations where the SK is the only thing keeping the mafia from beating the town, it can also be a bad lynch earlier because SK often attempts to target the mafia, which is the primary threat to his existence. If you have known mafia vs. known SK, the SK is almost always going to be a worse lynch.
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shraeye #1887 --
No, un-NK-able scum is not overpowered. Unlynchable would be. And that's assuming there isn't anyone with strongman modifier.
Not OP for town either, because he hasn't explained what happens when targeting VT or already-working town PR. Every target a cop makes helps town too, dude.
That's no QED at all.
Dsell #1890 --
If he's not Mafia, Mafia can leave him alone and let us have that wine. I think it's more likely that this is all just BS.
I don't think the claim is good at all. It feels like one lie that snowballed into more and more lies. Do people actually think it is believable? I really don't.
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Vote Count 2.8
ashersky (4) -- Cuzz, watno, TheMunch, sparky5856
TheMunch (6) -- eHalcyon, ftl, yuma, jotheonah, Captain_Frisk, shraeye
Dsell (1) -- Morgrim7
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (8 ) -- Insomniac, Young Nick, O, Axxle, theorel, ehunt, Dsell, Galzria
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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shraeye #1887 --
No, un-NK-able scum is not overpowered. Unlynchable would be. And that's assuming there isn't anyone with strongman modifier.
Not OP for town either, because he hasn't explained what happens when targeting VT or already-working town PR. Every target a cop makes helps town too, dude.
That's no QED at all.
Dsell #1890 --
If he's not Mafia, Mafia can leave him alone and let us have that wine. I think it's more likely that this is all just BS.
I don't think the claim is good at all. It feels like one lie that snowballed into more and more lies. Do people actually think it is believable? I really don't.
I think it's decent. It's something that doesn't make sense for scum to have, and does make sense in a game this size with lots of various roles (especially when we've already seen, in eevee's case, that some roles are "weaker" than usual). And the way it was revealed piecemeal doesn't suggest that he's lying unless he actually DID slip up in the alignment vs. role thing and I inadvertently helped him get it right.
But even more than that it just seems like it's something that's provable. But maybe you're right that the mafia aren't so afraid of him that they'll take out the town's juiciest target. I don't know. If shraeye is right then they have serious incentive to kill him, and maybe the possibility that he's the SK is enough for them to take that risk. I'm not sure, I'm not sure.
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I do not believe Munch's claim is true. There are so mayn inconsistencies there: Item becomes passive ability (despite it being active), "I get a bonus based on aligment" becomes "I get a bonus if it's scum, or they get one depending on their role if town", the bonus eHalc supposedly ot depends on his role, but later its a "strong" modifier for everyone. Plus it's not on the list of possible roles Robz provided.
That's just too much for me to believe this claim. it might be based on something true, but I'm pretty sure Munch is lying here.
I really don't see scum killing him if we leave him alive. I don't think Dsell's suggestion to leave him alive works.
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Apparently, unlynchable SKs would not be overpowered, because DSell would have us believe that nobody wants to lynch SK anyway, and that we should leave it for nightactions. I'm not gonna let Munch be unlynchable at all. He's patently SK.
Vote: TheMunch
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Munch, you're online, what is your role name?
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I do not believe Munch's claim is true. There are so mayn inconsistencies there: Item becomes passive ability (despite it being active), "I get a bonus based on aligment" becomes "I get a bonus if it's scum, or they get one depending on their role if town", the bonus eHalc supposedly ot depends on his role, but later its a "strong" modifier for everyone. Plus it's not on the list of possible roles Robz provided.
That's just too much for me to believe this claim. it might be based on something true, but I'm pretty sure Munch is lying here.
I really don't see scum killing him if we leave him alive. I don't think Dsell's suggestion to leave him alive works.
Item "becoming" passive was just me misremembering. It is a bonus if I'm town. The effect based on allignment is true; something happens if they are scum and something different happens if they are town. The specific outcome of the ability does depend on the specific role. I dont know what is inconsistent.
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Shraeye, it's not that nobody wants to lynch the SK, it's that he is so far from "provably" the SK. And when it's that far from being a sure thing, it can be tough to distinguish the SK from town.
Especially because his scummy play makes sense as mafia, but does not really make sense as SK.
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I do not believe Munch's claim is true. There are so mayn inconsistencies there: Item becomes passive ability (despite it being active), "I get a bonus based on aligment" becomes "I get a bonus if it's scum, or they get one depending on their role if town", the bonus eHalc supposedly ot depends on his role, but later its a "strong" modifier for everyone. Plus it's not on the list of possible roles Robz provided.
That's just too much for me to believe this claim. it might be based on something true, but I'm pretty sure Munch is lying here.
I really don't see scum killing him if we leave him alive. I don't think Dsell's suggestion to leave him alive works.
Item "becoming" passive was just me misremembering. It is a bonus if I'm town. The effect based on allignment is true; something happens if they are scum and something different happens if they are town. The specific outcome of the ability does depend on the specific role. I dont know what is inconsistent.
Role name?
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I do not believe Munch's claim is true. There are so mayn inconsistencies there: Item becomes passive ability (despite it being active), "I get a bonus based on aligment" becomes "I get a bonus if it's scum, or they get one depending on their role if town", the bonus eHalc supposedly ot depends on his role, but later its a "strong" modifier for everyone. Plus it's not on the list of possible roles Robz provided.
That's just too much for me to believe this claim. it might be based on something true, but I'm pretty sure Munch is lying here.
I really don't see scum killing him if we leave him alive. I don't think Dsell's suggestion to leave him alive works.
Item "becoming" passive was just me misremembering. It is a bonus if I'm town. The effect based on allignment is true; something happens if they are scum and something different happens if they are town. The specific outcome of the ability does depend on the specific role. I dont know what is inconsistent.
Role name?
It doesn't have a name.
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I do not believe Munch's claim is true. There are so mayn inconsistencies there: Item becomes passive ability (despite it being active), "I get a bonus based on aligment" becomes "I get a bonus if it's scum, or they get one depending on their role if town", the bonus eHalc supposedly ot depends on his role, but later its a "strong" modifier for everyone. Plus it's not on the list of possible roles Robz provided.
That's just too much for me to believe this claim. it might be based on something true, but I'm pretty sure Munch is lying here.
I really don't see scum killing him if we leave him alive. I don't think Dsell's suggestion to leave him alive works.
This is a summation of the biggest hangup I have over not lynching him today. SO many inconsistencies and an ever changing story. It's not just minor things either that changed over the span of 30 posts... It was the core nature (item vs ability), to what it actually is (passive vs active), to how it activates (alignment vs role)... Really, he made it clear he was all set to claim in his "If I was targeted for death, eHal must be scum" post... But then everything that followed was piece by inconsistent piece.
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There is nothing in your PM that says something along the lines of "Role: xyz" at all?
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Shraeye, it's not that nobody wants to lynch the SK, it's that he is so far from "provably" the SK. And when it's that far from being a sure thing, it can be tough to distinguish the SK from town.
Especially because his scummy play makes sense as mafia, but does not really make sense as SK.
That's because everybody keeps listening to eHalcyon's line that he's repeated ad infinitum about Munch defending Grujah. Munch did not do this; I've said this multiple times. Yet I still find him scummy. Read my posts (they were in the pg 70-72 range I think) as to why he's scummy regardless of the Grujah defense/nondefense issue.
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I'm curious what a strong double voter does...
Role name?
It doesn't have a name.
All roles have a name.
Role: This is the name that best matches whatever abilities you may possess. Since sources may differ on what exactly a given role does, and I may have made tweaks, please be sure to consult your Description and Abilities sections to make sure that your Role actually does what you think it does.
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I do not believe Munch's claim is true. There are so mayn inconsistencies there: Item becomes passive ability (despite it being active), "I get a bonus based on aligment" becomes "I get a bonus if it's scum, or they get one depending on their role if town", the bonus eHalc supposedly ot depends on his role, but later its a "strong" modifier for everyone. Plus it's not on the list of possible roles Robz provided.
That's just too much for me to believe this claim. it might be based on something true, but I'm pretty sure Munch is lying here.
I really don't see scum killing him if we leave him alive. I don't think Dsell's suggestion to leave him alive works.
This is a summation of the biggest hangup I have over not lynching him today. SO many inconsistencies and an ever changing story. It's not just minor things either that changed over the span of 30 posts... It was the core nature (item vs ability), to what it actually is (passive vs active), to how it activates (alignment vs role)... Really, he made it clear he was all set to claim in his "If I was targeted for death, eHal must be scum" post... But then everything that followed was piece by inconsistent piece.
Item "becoming" passive was just me misremembering. It is a bonus if I'm town. The effect based on allignment is true; something happens if they are scum and something different happens if they are town. The specific outcome of the ability does depend on the specific role. I dont know what is inconsistent.
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It is true, I'd forgotten about him calling it an item and other such things, I am currently getting more suspicious by the minute.
@Shraeye, you are wrong, Munch did defend grujah, albeit subtly. You're just wrong. I did it too! And I'm a townie. It doesn't necessarily make him scum in and of itself but he did steer the town away from a grujah lynch.
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Munch, if you're claiming that your role has no name, Vote: TheMunch.
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yeah.... i fully endorse a TheMunch lynch at this point.
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I'm curious what a strong double voter does...
TheMunch: can you reclaim in one post? Currently your claim seems to be spread out in several posts, it's a confusing enough claim as it is.
Sure.
Under my active ability I get to "copy" someone.
Under my passive ability there is a different outcome based on whether that person is town/scum. If they are scum, I am protected from dying. If they are town, I give them the "strong" modifier in a sense. All of their night actions will succeed and any false, anti town outcome (such as Eevee's semi-naive cop) will provide the correct response.
PPE: If they dont need fixing then nothing happens. It is just IF it would fail or give incorrect information, it succeeds or gives correct information.
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Munch, if you're claiming that your role has no name, Vote: TheMunch.
The ability doesn't have a name. I'm VT.
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I'm curious what a strong double voter does...
Role name?
It doesn't have a name.
All roles have a name.
Role: This is the name that best matches whatever abilities you may possess. Since sources may differ on what exactly a given role does, and I may have made tweaks, please be sure to consult your Description and Abilities sections to make sure that your Role actually does what you think it does.
ReVote: TheMunch
I'm sorry, it's just too munch to be credible to me.
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VTs don't have abilities....
So either you're lying or Robz is trolling us hardcore.
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Munch, if you're claiming that your role has no name, Vote: TheMunch.
The ability doesn't have a name. I'm VT.
A VT with an item, I could believe. A VT with an ability is no longer a VT.
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Munch, if you're claiming that your role has no name, Vote: TheMunch.
The ability doesn't have a name. I'm VT.
!!!! Vanilla townies don't have abilities!!!!
This kindof fosters the theory that its an item that grants an ability?
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Munch, if you're claiming that your role has no name, Vote: TheMunch.
The ability doesn't have a name. I'm VT.
!!!! Vanilla townies don't have abilities!!!!
This kindof fosters the theory that its an item that grants an ability?
But he said it wasn't an item!
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VTs don't have abilities....
So either you're lying or Robz is trolling us hardcore.
This is the only thing I have.
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Munch, if you're claiming that your role has no name, Vote: TheMunch.
The ability doesn't have a name. I'm VT.
!!!! Vanilla townies don't have abilities!!!!
This kindof fosters the theory that its an item that grants an ability?
Yes, except he explicitly said it is NOT an item, but an ability.
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yeah.... i fully endorse a TheMunch lynch at this point.
c'mon cayvie, vote Munch. Didn't you said that it's only bad for you if you lynch town?
Now you're avoiding all wagons while trying to advocate for it. this is a legit wagon, I know it. And if you know it too, back that up with a vote.
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Vote: TheMunch
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Hammer, right?
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Fess up, Munch!
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Hammer, right?
Nope. Thats 10. CAYVIE HAMMER!
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even with Axxle's DV? Munch, why you wanna be lynched all of a sudden?
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Hammer, right?
Don't think so. L-1 or 2 still. I unvoted and revoted. Shraeye never changed.
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I think we can all agree Munch isn't making a whole lot of sense at the moment. VT means that you don't have any abilities. You're just "vanilla". You can't be a VT and then have special powers. That would be called a power role.
The role he described though actually sounds quite sweet as town (given if I read it correctly >_< ), and all of this may be just be that his newbieness is REALLY showing. Have you played mafia before Munch? He may have been asked this already but I didn't see the answer.
PPE: Oh wait. He may be dead. >_<
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Hammer, right?
Don't think so. L-1 or 2 still. I unvoted and revoted. Shraeye never changed.
Ah ok.
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Munch, I'll explain why i Think what you said was inconsistent:
Misremembering seems quite unlikely for something so important. I mean, if you thought it was an item, you would have to know what kind of an item it is.
First you said YOU got a bonus based on alignment. Later you said it depended on the role, so you wouldn't know what it caused for eHalc. Later again, you say it gave HIM, not you a "strong" modifier.
Also one ability being split in description to active and passive doesn't make sense either. That would mean Active abilities saying "Target a player" for nearly every role, wether its a vig, a doc, or cop, or whatever you claim to be.
I won't vote yet, maybe O wants to say something before we end the day.
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[facepalm] What on earth is going on here?
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Plus the role itself doesn't sound likely either. If you target scum you get something good, if you target town you get something good, so what are you supposed to try and aimn for with it?
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Hammer, right?
Nope. Thats 10. CAYVIE HAMMER!
nope! though if you're town, that's an absolutely horrific suggestion.
deadline's in a week.
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I think we can all agree Munch isn't making a whole lot of sense at the moment. VT means that you don't have any abilities. You're just "vanilla". You can't be a VT and then have special powers. That would be called a power role.
The role he described though actually sounds quite sweet as town (given if I read it correctly >_< ), and all of this may be just be that his newbieness is REALLY showing. Have you played mafia before Munch? He may have been asked this already but I didn't see the answer.
PPE: Oh wait. He may be dead. >_<
This is my first time playing Mafia with "power roles". I've only played at parties and such where it was Vanilla Town vs Vanilla Scum. All this shit is new to me.
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Hammer, right?
Nope. Thats 10. CAYVIE HAMMER!
nope! though if you're town, that's an absolutely horrific suggestion.
deadline's in a week.
I'm just tired of honestly scum hunting only to get every word I say torn apart. I just wanted to scum hunt and I've spent my whole time defending myself and getting ripped apart and misrepresented left and right. I'm tired of it.
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Vote Count 2.9
ashersky (4) -- Cuzz, watno, TheMunch, sparky5856
TheMunch (10) -- eHalcyon, ftl, yuma, jotheonah, Captain_Frisk, shraeye, Dsell, Galzria, Axxle (L-1)
Dsell (1) -- Morgrim7
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (5) -- Insomniac, Young Nick, O, theorel, ehunt
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).
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Eh I still think ash is more likely to be scum than Munch to be honest. This would be an easier decision for me if Munch was an experienced player.
Well if Munch flips town, we know where to look for scum amirite?
Any final strong reads on the town you want to give Munch in case you get hammered?
PPE: Wow you only played mafia with vanilla roles period? This game IS quite a jump for you then >_<
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Is Axxle voting or not?
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Eh I still think ash is more likely to be scum than Munch to be honest. This would be an easier decision for me if Munch was an experienced player.
Well if Munch flips town, we know where to look for scum amirite?
Any final strong reads on the town you want to give Munch in case you get hammered?
PPE: Wow you only played mafia with vanilla roles period? This game IS quite a jump for you then >_<
My honest scumreads are Dsell, eHal (hes scared that I might be telling the truth and he gets crucified for it), Ashersky and Young Knick.
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Is Axxle voting or not?
He's voting; count should be accurate now.
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yuma #1758 -- I find your rankings of Morgrim and shraeye quite odd. I disagree with the others though I can understand how you might come to those conclusions, but what kind of read do you have on Morgrim that you mark him as "likely to be scum"? Morgrim is eternally inscrutable to me. And why do you think shraeye is unlikely to be scum given the buddying with Munch that Galz pointed out? Seems a little inconsistent, given your ranking of Munch. Maybe you're won over by shraeye's cases on other players you find scummy. Hm. But seriously -- Morgrim read? How even? Can you explain a little more?
Yeah, your points on Morgrim are really weak. Town Morgrim fits that description too. You should know better.
In answer to your question, I'll quote myself and then attempt to make myself more clear.
Morgrim7 - I always find him scummy, and I am not going to do a full reread, but I can summerize it from memory: Morgrim participates in RVS, he sheeps reads, votes w/o explanation, self votes and then joins the wagon that lynched Grujah. The end.
So in summary, I would prefer to vote for: Dsell, Young Nick, TheMunch, jotheonah, but willing to vote for ftl and Frisk. I don't think I would want to pursue a voltaire or a morgrim lynch at this point.
Yes I do find Morgim likely to be scum because his actions and behavior read scummy to me--but in my quote I preface that with a "I always find him to be scummy." His behavior as I outline is scummy, sheeping reads, voting w/o explanation, more or less being a lurker, wagon joining, etc... But it is typical Morgrim behavior and I fully acknowledge that and as a result I do not think that he is an appropriate lynch candidate at this time, but that doesn't change the fact that I consider him to have a higher chance of being scum then someone who I have a null or town read on.
As for shraeye, my read of him is based off of my memory. as I stated I have not gone back and done a full reread on him. But based on my memory I remember his as a town read because he has been so confrontational and has willingly picked fights with others--I am sure I wrote that someone else. As for his buddying with themunch, I know you have pointed it out, but I haven't seen it on my own, and have not gone back and done a reread on him, so I am unable to make a full comment on it at this point.
In fact, you seem to come to a similar conclusion as me and end up having a null read on him yourself.
My current reads are....
Null:
(snip)
shraeye -- Seems to defend Munch way too much. A few opinions that seem inconsistent (e.g. Munch not-scummy vs. ashersky no-lynch defenses of/redirections from Grujah). Nonetheless, he made several cases that I thought were quite good.
PPE: lot's going on with themunch, i'll post again about it...
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Well my opinion of themunch hasn't changed, I am still for lynching him and I believe it will occur. However, it for whatever reason he deviate from it, I would prefer a Young Nick lynch over an ashersky lynch at this point.
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I didn't think something so obviously pro town would get me killed.
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The when-targets-scum part is super obviously pro-selfishSK. That's the part that makes me want to lynch you.
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The when-targets-scum part is super obviously pro-selfishSK. That's the part that makes me want to lynch you.
The me being town and staying alive is protown.
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unless you're a jester, staying alive is pro-whatever-your-alignment-is
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I didn't think something so obviously pro town would get me killed.
What is obviously pro town about anything you have done today?
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unless you're a jester, staying alive is pro-whatever-your-alignment-is
Funny. My card is Jester.
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I didn't think something so obviously pro town would get me killed.
What is obviously pro town about anything you have done today?
If i'm right that ashersky, young knick, and dsell are scum, thats protown.
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I didn't think something so obviously pro town would get me killed.
What is obviously pro town about anything you have done today?
If i'm right that ashersky, young knick, and dsell are scum, thats protown.
The rest of the time I've just spent defending myself. No time to be protown.
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FROM MAFIA WIKI:
A Jester is a role that wins when they are lynched. If they survive to endgame or are killed in any other way, they lose. Even though technically they might be lynched in the implicit process of scum endgaming a Town, they invariably just lose when the game gets to that point to avoid that kind of rules lawyering. Similarly, if the Jester is the only role in the game stopping the Town from winning, the Town simply wins and the Jester loses.
The original variant of Jester ended the game when it won (leading to things like BBB's Gambit). However, this almost always ended in short games where the Jester won. Thus, once the Jester is lynched the game usually continues. Jesters who are lynched are considered joint winners alongside whichever main faction wins the game.
Jester is held in profound distaste partly because it is easy to win with (any village idiot can get lynched Day 1) and partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for lynching someone who is not of their alignment.
O_o
Am I to believe this?
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Hey, guys! I know this is my first post here, but I would be quite interested in joining in on this Mafia game. I heard about mafia on this forum from a friend of mine and wanted to participate. Hope there is room for one more!
Sorry to interject here... but I was just doing a reread through your posts and found this... it is just a curiosity thing... wondering who your forum friend is?
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FROM MAFIA WIKI:
A Jester is a role that wins when they are lynched. If they survive to endgame or are killed in any other way, they lose. Even though technically they might be lynched in the implicit process of scum endgaming a Town, they invariably just lose when the game gets to that point to avoid that kind of rules lawyering. Similarly, if the Jester is the only role in the game stopping the Town from winning, the Town simply wins and the Jester loses.
The original variant of Jester ended the game when it won (leading to things like BBB's Gambit). However, this almost always ended in short games where the Jester won. Thus, once the Jester is lynched the game usually continues. Jesters who are lynched are considered joint winners alongside whichever main faction wins the game.
Jester is held in profound distaste partly because it is easy to win with (any village idiot can get lynched Day 1) and partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for lynching someone who is not of their alignment.
O_o
Am I to believe this?
CAYVIE! HAMMER!
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Hey, guys! I know this is my first post here, but I would be quite interested in joining in on this Mafia game. I heard about mafia on this forum from a friend of mine and wanted to participate. Hope there is room for one more!
Sorry to interject here... but I was just doing a reread through your posts and found this... it is just a curiosity thing... wondering who your forum friend is?
You guys already know the answer to that. Dont be naive.
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Are we withholding a hammer for some reason? I will hammer if we are satisfied the day can end.
Don't forget that we have agreed to not drink the wine.
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Are we withholding a hammer for some reason? I will hammer if we are satisfied the day can end.
Don't forget that we have agreed to not drink the wine.
I really want cayvie to hammer. MAN UP~!
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If you don't want to hammer, i can unvote, then let you vote. Then I can hammer.
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If you don't want to hammer, i can unvote, then let you vote. Then I can hammer.
HAMMER BEFORE HE CAN UNVOTE!
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"you" being cayvie or ehunt, or anybody who isn't on the wagon
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Vote: Ashersky Where are you buddy? Come out and play.
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"you" being cayvie or ehunt, or anybody who isn't on the wagon
CAYVIE HAMMER!!!!!
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Well why would Munch just reveal his card that in turn gives away the role I just listed if he really is the role I just listed?
And why does he want someone specific to hammer?
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Are we withholding a hammer for some reason? I will hammer if we are satisfied the day can end.
Don't forget that we have agreed to not drink the wine.
I really want cayvie to hammer. MAN UP~!
I think Cayvie might actually find that particular direction offensive.
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Are we withholding a hammer for some reason? I will hammer if we are satisfied the day can end.
Don't forget that we have agreed to not drink the wine.
I really want cayvie to hammer. MAN UP~!
hammer yourself
(Jester isn't on the list of available roles)
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Hey, guys! I know this is my first post here, but I would be quite interested in joining in on this Mafia game. I heard about mafia on this forum from a friend of mine and wanted to participate. Hope there is room for one more!
Sorry to interject here... but I was just doing a reread through your posts and found this... it is just a curiosity thing... wondering who your forum friend is?
You guys already know the answer to that. Dont be naive.
I don't... but if you don't want to answer, don't answers, I was just curious
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i'm going to hammer
vote: TheMunch
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Would people be ok with me hammering? Or do we need more talk?
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FROM MAFIA WIKI:
A Jester is a role that wins when they are lynched. If they survive to endgame or are killed in any other way, they lose. Even though technically they might be lynched in the implicit process of scum endgaming a Town, they invariably just lose when the game gets to that point to avoid that kind of rules lawyering. Similarly, if the Jester is the only role in the game stopping the Town from winning, the Town simply wins and the Jester loses.
The original variant of Jester ended the game when it won (leading to things like BBB's Gambit). However, this almost always ended in short games where the Jester won. Thus, once the Jester is lynched the game usually continues. Jesters who are lynched are considered joint winners alongside whichever main faction wins the game.
Jester is held in profound distaste partly because it is easy to win with (any village idiot can get lynched Day 1) and partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for lynching someone who is not of their alignment.
O_o
Am I to believe this?
That the role exists on the greater Mafia world?
Yes.
That it would exist in this game as a ROLE?
Not likely.
Even if it is, you never play to it's existence. It's such a Bastard role that if it was in a serious game, I think most people would ragequit. It's so blatantly easy to win as it's simply pointless. Even if it exists but doesn't end the game, I wouldn't consider winning with it an achievement, and I would be really saddened by the cheapness that it's addition would add.
Jester, as a role, is funny to joke about, but is seriously stupid to be in a real game - and Robz knows this.
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Well why would Munch just reveal his card that in turn gives away the role I just listed if he really is the role I just listed?
And why does he want someone specific to hammer?
Cause I dont like Cayvies claims. I thought they were scummy from the beginning and that he got away with it. And that Yuma got jumped on for asking questions. I dont know any of this shit and his claim did not seem like a free town pass to me. He shouldn't get away with that. CAYVIE HAMMER!
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Well apparently I don't have to.
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I wasnt lying about the ehal thing. Shraeye is my roommate. He is scum.
NAME: TheMunch
ALIGNMENT: Scum
CARD: Jester
ROLE: Serial Killer
DESCRIPTION: Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody.
ACTIVE ABILITIES: Each night, you may PM me the name of 1 player you wish to kill. You may also PM the name of 1 living player (not you) that you wish to copy. This can be the same player as the one you chose to kill.
PASSIVE ABILITIES: If you copy a Vanilla Townie, that night you will be immune from all investigations that would otherwise reveal your Alignment, Role, Description, Abilities, or Win Condition (your Card would still be revealed). If you copy a Town-aligned player with a special ability, that night you will be immune from any action that would have prevented your kill from hitting your intended target (this is an overriding ability that will prevent you from succumbing to a roleblocker, for example). If you copy a Scum-aligned player, that night you will be protected from any kill that would have otherwise resolved on you. You will never be told explicitly which copy benefit you received.
WIN CONDITION: You win when you are one of the last 2 players left alive in the game. No other faction can win while you are alive.
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Would people be ok with me hammering? Or do we need more talk?
Fail. eHunt wins. ;D
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Would people be ok with me hammering? Or do we need more talk?
Fail. eHunt wins. ;D
How'd you know I was SK!?
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Would people be ok with me hammering? Or do we need more talk?
Fail. eHunt wins. ;D
How'd you know I was SK!?
Your scum hunting kung fu is otherworldly.
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Are we withholding a hammer for some reason? I will hammer if we are satisfied the day can end.
Don't forget that we have agreed to not drink the wine.
I really want cayvie to hammer. MAN UP~!
hammer yourself
(Jester isn't on the list of available roles)
Oh DUH, I'm stupid. I really didn't think Robz would be that evil O_o
Did the Munch just his PM? You're not supposed to do that.
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Pretty sure that quoting mod information is also modkillable offense.
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THREAD LOCKED.
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Are we withholding a hammer for some reason? I will hammer if we are satisfied the day can end.
Don't forget that we have agreed to not drink the wine.
I really want cayvie to hammer. MAN UP~!
hammer yourself
(Jester isn't on the list of available roles)
Oh DUH, I'm stupid. I really didn't think Robz would be that evil O_o
Did the Munch just his PM? You're not supposed to do that.
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THREAD LOCKED, ABSOLUTELY NO MORE POSTING PERMITTED.
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Vote Count 2.10
ashersky (4) -- Cuzz, watno, TheMunch, sparky5856
TheMunch (11) -- eHalcyon, ftl, yuma, jotheonah, Captain_Frisk, shraeye, Dsell, Galzria, Axxle, ehunt
Dsell (1) -- Morgrim7
Galzria (1) -- ashersky
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (5) -- Insomniac, Young Nick, O, theorel
Another day of searching for the real Robz was coming to an end. Many had levelled accusations, others had lurked back in the shadows, while still others had taken off their masks to reveal that they were really different people! Curious, indeed.
But there was none so suspicious as TheMunch, who was driven mad by the accusations against him. He even committed an offense worthy of mod-induced execution; however, the town saw to him first. And when the deed was done, all stood in a circle around his corpse laughing, cheering, and clapping each other on their backs.
"Truly, this is too easy," said ehunt.
TheMunch, the Scum-aligned Serial Killer has been lynched. By way of interrogation (and breach of rules, grrr!), you learned his Description, which is as follows: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
We will have a shorter night phase henceforth. Please submit night actions by Thursday, October 11th, at 7:00 PM EDT. Day 3 will begin shortly after that.
NIGHT 2 START
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We are currently discussing whether to start a new thread for Day 3. This discussion is taking place here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2752.550
If you have an opinion please express it. Do not discuss the game. If there is overwhelming support for a new thread, it will be done. Otherwise, no new thread.
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[flavor]While several of Robz's assailants had already been disposed of, more lurked in the shadows. But the guests were too busy celebrating to pay them much attention. After all, no previous party had resolved itself so well in just three days!
The guests awoke to find another body... just one body.
"Truly, this is a dull affair," remarked Young Nick.[/flavor]
Galzria, the Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
A Dominion Card was also found: a Jester. It must have been left behind by one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss)
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah
9. Young Nick
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire)
11. Axxle
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis)
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon
21. Watno
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk
24. ehunt
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
THREAD UNLOCKED EARLY -- DAY 3 START
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Day 3 will start in a new thread. Please do not post in this thread. We are going to have exactly 1,999 posts in this thread, so whenever anyone references a post number, you can simply add exactly 2,000.
Here is the Day 3 thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4983.0
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Well pretty sure we know Jester was TheMunch we just don't know why the cards are relevant correct?
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Bump.
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Bump.
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Bump.
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Bump.
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Bump.
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Bump.
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Bump.
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Day 3 will start in a new thread. Please do not post in this thread. We are going to have exactly 1,999 posts in this thread, so whenever anyone references a post number, you can simply add exactly 2,000.
Here is the Day 3 thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4983.0
Theory, please lock this thread.
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Well pretty sure we know Jester was TheMunch we just don't know why the cards are relevant correct?
Because TheMunch (mostly harmlessly) broke the rules, you do know it was his, yes.
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OK So, I think we should sheep TheMunch's read on his roomate..
Vote: Shraeye
"I wasnt lying about the ehal thing. Shraeye is my roommate. He is scum."
We know that TheMunch was a serial killer, that means that he could have been truly scum hunting.
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I received the wine last night. I did not drink it, and neither did Dsell. Instead, we conversed and exchanged descriptions.
Dsell's description is interesting... it is a little vague, as I believe they all are. There are two ways to interpret it. One way would give me a weird insight into Dsell's alignment... but given certain public info we have, I think that would be the wrong way to interpret it. I believe Dsell is town.
I can offer more info if enough members of the town wish. Alternatively, Dsell could give it himself. I am willing to reveal my own description, though I don't think it is necessary.
With only one death night 2 and two deaths on night 1 (counting Glooble/O as one, since they were lovers) it looks probable that we only have a single scum team now.
I think shraeye is scum. I will have to re-read a bit later, but shraeye's behaviour struck me as odd as we closed in on Munch.
1. He was oddly worried about Munch's claim of becoming bulletproof. IIRC, he said it would be OP and we had to stop it because Munch would become unkillable. That is false, because the town weapon is the lynch. Bulletproof does not stop the lynch. It makes more sense for him to be worried about it as opposing scum, since he wouldn't be able to shoot Munch.
2. He pegged Munch as SK, and his reasoning did not work for me. Maybe it will make more sense to me on re-read, but the first time through it didn't make sense to me at all. I thought Munch was going to flip Mafia. I think it is likely that shraeye came to the SK conclusion because he himself is Mafia and knew that Munch wasn't.
3. Munch's read on his roommate. That means very little to me, actually, but it's still a thing.
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4. Galzria said he was planning to do a re-read of shraeye due to his interaction with Munch. Perhaps shraeye did not want that to happen, so they killed him. Certainly Galz put together several strong cases. Maybe one of them was a home run, or maybe scum worried about the forthcoming cases.
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OK So, I think we should sheep TheMunch's read on his roomate..
Vote: Shraeye
"I wasnt lying about the ehal thing. Shraeye is my roommate. He is scum."
We know that TheMunch was a serial killer, that means that he could have been truly scum hunting.
I'd be pretty pissed if my RL roomate outed me, but the Munch did go a little crazy at the end of the day.
Vote: Shraeye
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Robz, can you include a link to the original thread in the first post?
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4412.0)
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Doh! A consequence of locking the original thread is that there is no longer a quote button... is there a solution to this? :-\
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stream of consciousness:
one defense of shraeye i thought of over the break- themunch's twin-claim explains shraeye's adoption of a more hypermasculine tone between MIX and this game and explains why he was reluctant ever to directly address anyone who called him out on this. ehalc's 3 points are each pretty devastating, though.
i was going to vote for dsell today but it's pretty townish that he chose ehalc to give the wine to.
as far as i'm concerned, nobody gets credit for being on the munchwagon.
i want to hear from ibgtennis/theorel, young nick, and voltaire/O.
who wanted galzria dead?
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FINALLY!
Vote: shraeye
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OK So, I think we should sheep TheMunch's read on his roomate..
Vote: Shraeye
"I wasnt lying about the ehal thing. Shraeye is my roommate. He is scum."
We know that TheMunch was a serial killer, that means that he could have been truly scum hunting.
I'd be pretty pissed if my RL roomate outed me, but the Munch did go a little crazy at the end of the day.
Vote: Shraeye
Well he might not be 100% accurate. I mean Joth wasn't able to read Glooble in the infamous twinclaim game.
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I am rather disappointed that TheMunch was SK, I really believed that he would end up Mafia.
I am less inclined to take The Munch's claim about shraeye seriously and sheep of it.... For starters, he was a serial killer with a wincon not in alignment with town and then ... how does he know shraeye's alignment? What evidence did he provide? The only way I can see this working is if shraeye and TheMunch were communicating their alignment to each other previously...
For now I am keeping to my own reads and until I see a solid argument on shraeye, other than "TheMunch SK said so" I will vote for my second scum read from yesterday after TheMunch and vote: Young Nick
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I'm at an event, can't provide vote count or fix the quoting issue for an hour or two.
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So I didn't get much of a say in the theMunch lynch. I was pretty much around Friday/Saturday, but not Sunday/Monday when everything went down. So I acknowledge that it looks like I lurked through the end of D2, but man, I just wasn't present.
Anyway, I want to re-read the end of D2 in light of Galzria/theMunch's deaths.
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@ehalc after re-reading the post where shraeye figured out themunch was sk, i think your points 1 and 2 aren't that compelling - shraeye was pointing out how broken themunch's abilities would be if themunch were town or mafia but that they were consistent with SK, and i agree with his analysis pretty thoroughly. i agree though that if shraeye were mafia it would be easier for him to come to this conclusion.
your point 3 is still compelling. it's impossible to know if "shraeye is scum" was coming from a ragequitting roommate who knew too much or was just WIFOM, but we have to weigh the chances that it's the former, especially since his quit seemed a lot like a ragequit.
As for your point 4, I'm not sure if shraeye would want Galzria dead or not. One thing that's funny to me - the thrust of Galzria's case on theMunch was dead wrong! Galzria found theMunch scummy for his futile attempts at derailing the Grujah wagon. But Grujah and theMunch didn't actually share an alignment! TheMunch just had the bad luck to defend the wrong person. (and let's not lie, we got a little lucky with theMunch's claimtastrophe). So actually, when Galzria went back to re-read shraeye, it wouldn't have been under the assumption that shraeye was aligned with theMunch. OTOH maybe shraeye doesn't want anyone re-reading him at all, especially someone as thorough as Galzria.
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@ehalc after re-reading the post where shraeye figured out themunch was sk, i think your points 1 and 2 aren't that compelling - shraeye was pointing out how broken themunch's abilities would be if themunch were town or mafia but that they were consistent with SK, and i agree with his analysis pretty thoroughly. i agree though that if shraeye were mafia it would be easier for him to come to this conclusion.
How would the claimed abilities be broken? As I recall, the claim (which was a lie, but whatever) went something like this:
- copy a player
-- if scum, become bulletproof
-- if town, enhances their power (abilities become "strong"; negative modifiers become fixed)
If this was a scum player's power, the "town" part is worthless. You would always want to use it on a scumpartner... but become BP doesn't help THAT much, since the primary way of dealing with scum is by lynch.
If this was a town player's power, it is still fairly weak. You can't really use it to scumhunt unless you happen to have been targeted by a vig right on the night you "copied" scum, and even then you would have to out your vig. It's very unreliable protection. Enhancing townies isn't amazing because first you have to target the right townies (would be worthless on VT and players whose powers are already fine) and then you have to realize that, until you do target those townies, their powers are extra weak.
So I don't see it being broken for scum or townie, and thus I don't see a compelling reason to think Munch would be SK just from a claim that looked very much like a lie to start with.
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i want to hear from ibgtennis/theorel, young nick, and voltaire/O.
I want to hear from theorel and Cuzz, who seem the lurkiest to me.
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Ello.
I was hoping i'd replace into a scum role: I was clueless and in over my head D1, now i'm still clueless and in over my head D3.
Rereading a bunch of crap.
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Ello.
I was hoping i'd replace into a scum role: I was clueless and in over my head D1, now i'm still clueless and in over my head D3.
Rereading a bunch of crap.
I believe it is most important to re-read mid-to-late d1 and early-to-mid d2. Early d1 is, of course, just RVS. Later d1 is important because we lynched scum. Early d2 has interesting reactions. Late d2 is a little less useful because we lynched SK, which makes the wagon somewhat less useful for sussing out scum. There are still some interesting things there. Ash had some really, really weird opinions about wagon hunting.
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wait why are people giving TheMunch's read on shraeye that much credence? He was all over the place D1, voted for like everybody except the scum we caught, why are we suddenly believing his reads now that he's dead (and not even dead town, dead sk)
don't do it, that's a trap, sheep dead townies with good reads not dead sks with terrible reads
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don't do it, that's a trap, sheep dead townies with good reads not dead sks with terrible reads
along those lines:
Here is a list of people that Galz (confirmed town, and 2 for 2 on helping town find scum in this game) wanted to look more into: Dsell, TheMunch, Frisk, Shraeye, Cayvie, Voltaire, eHunt, Ashersky.
If I remember correctly he was only able to provide analysis on Dsell, TheMunch, Frisk, and Voltaire. I really wish he had done a reread on Young Nick.
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@ehalc after re-reading the post where shraeye figured out themunch was sk, i think your points 1 and 2 aren't that compelling - shraeye was pointing out how broken themunch's abilities would be if themunch were town or mafia but that they were consistent with SK, and i agree with his analysis pretty thoroughly. i agree though that if shraeye were mafia it would be easier for him to come to this conclusion.
How would the claimed abilities be broken? As I recall, the claim (which was a lie, but whatever) went something like this:
- copy a player
-- if scum, become bulletproof
-- if town, enhances their power (abilities become "strong"; negative modifiers become fixed)
If this was a scum player's power, the "town" part is worthless. You would always want to use it on a scumpartner... but become BP doesn't help THAT much, since the primary way of dealing with scum is by lynch.
If this was a town player's power, it is still fairly weak. You can't really use it to scumhunt unless you happen to have been targeted by a vig right on the night you "copied" scum, and even then you would have to out your vig. It's very unreliable protection. Enhancing townies isn't amazing because first you have to target the right townies (would be worthless on VT and players whose powers are already fine) and then you have to realize that, until you do target those townies, their powers are extra weak.
So I don't see it being broken for scum or townie, and thus I don't see a compelling reason to think Munch would be SK just from a claim that looked very much like a lie to start with.
oh, i thought the munch was saying if he copied a PR townie he got the townie's power and HE was enhanced (not the townie)... this obviously being OP for a mafia role, since it rolecops the townie in addition to everything else, plus if he wants to be NK immune he can just copy his scumbuddy
i'll go back and read out how the munch's claim-chernobyl unfolded more carefully
...
realization:
we are arguing about the finer strategic details of how one would play a fake claim which is partially based on a real role given to a dead SK, if one were mafia and one had these same abilities. we are arguing about this because we want to know if it is legitimate for a third party (shraeye) seeing someone making this claim but claiming the role as a TOWN ability to deduce that the claimer could be neither town nor mafia and therefore had to be sk. that is really, really confusing. i played a game yesterday where my opponent and i both tried to kc + kc + haven + masquerade pin the other, and this is like that.
...
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ok, i reread it. ehalc is right. the sk role which themunch tried to spin as a town role unambiguously included (when themunch was describing it) a bit about the role helping the townie who was copied; therefore it's not OP as a mafia role and therefore it's sketchy to deduce that themunch is sk and not mafia just from reading his claim, UNLESS you have additional information, e.g. you know that themunch is not mafia because you are mafia.
tl;dr i'm sold. vote: shraeye
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Hi all. Sorry I missed most of the action yesterday. You guys produced like 12 pages of posts in a day and a half while I was V/LA and then the hammer happened while I was catching up.
Anyway, I can tell you guys with some certainty that one of shraeye and ashersky is a VT.
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Hi all. Sorry I missed most of the action yesterday. You guys produced like 12 pages of posts in a day and a half while I was V/LA and then the hammer happened while I was catching up.
Anyway, I can tell you guys with some certainty that one of shraeye and ashersky is a VT.
unvote
at least one, or exactly one?
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don't do it, that's a trap, sheep dead townies with good reads not dead sks with terrible reads
along those lines:
Here is a list of people that Galz (confirmed town, and 2 for 2 on helping town find scum in this game) wanted to look more into: Dsell, TheMunch, Frisk, Shraeye, Cayvie, Voltaire, eHunt, Ashersky.
If I remember correctly he was only able to provide analysis on Dsell, TheMunch, Frisk, and Voltaire. I really wish he had done a reread on Young Nick.
yeah i was kinda excited to see what he had to say about me
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Hi all. Sorry I missed most of the action yesterday. You guys produced like 12 pages of posts in a day and a half while I was V/LA and then the hammer happened while I was catching up.
Anyway, I can tell you guys with some certainty that one of shraeye and ashersky is a VT.
unvote
at least one, or exactly one?
At least one.
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Yep, eHalc is town, almost certainly so.
I don't any more really needs to be revealed from either of us. I have no desire to share eHal's description and would rather him not share mine.
I'll have to reread shraeye at the end of the day. His fervor was odd and makes sense from a scum perspective. I should reread Munch too. I didn't think him asserting that shraeye was scum was something based on RL, I just thought he was giving the town a last-minute read, or wine, or something.
I find Ashersky the more likely VT among them, but again, I need to reread.
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Vote Count 3.1
shraeye (4) -- Insomniac, Captain_Frisk, Axxle
Young Nick (1) -- yuma
Not Voting (15): ftl, sparky5856, Dsell, Jotheonah, Young Nick, O, cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7, eHaclyon, watno, ehunt, ashersky
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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I think shraeye is scum.
I'm going to guess your basic argument even before reading it. "My scumread was off on Munch yesterday, I was convinced that he was Mafia, and it was making me mad that shraeye kept saying he didn't defend Grujah, so instead of reanalyzing my reads, I'm going to move on to assuming Shraeye is scum, because that's gonna work out awesomely!"
1. He was oddly worried about Munch's claim of becoming bulletproof.
false, go back and reread. Show me where I was concerned about the specific part where Munch could be bulletproof.
2. He pegged Munch as SK, and his reasoning did not work for me. Maybe it will make more sense to me on re-read, but the first time through it didn't make sense to me at all. I thought Munch was going to flip Mafia.
That's because you couldn't get past the argument that Munch wasn't defending Grujah. Anytime I said that, you just blocked off the part of your ears that are able to hear logic and started turning on the conspiracy part of your brain where you assumed that me and Munch were scumbuddies. Well we most definitely aren't scumbuddies, so I suggest you actually start trying to understand the sense I was making yesterday.
3. Munch's read on his roommate. That means very little to me, actually, but it's still a thing.
No it's not a thing, unless you want to make it one. And if you do, that's just one more reason for you and your scum partners to try to whip the town up into a frenzy over a lot of really poorly reasoned arguments, trying to get a good mislynch happening.
4. Galzria said he was planning to do a re-read of shraeye due to his interaction with Munch. Perhaps shraeye did not want that to happen, so they killed him. Certainly Galz put together several strong cases. Maybe one of them was a home run, or maybe scum worried about the forthcoming cases.
Yeah, I killed the only other person trying hard to scumhunt and making sense. Because I loooove listening to the terrible arguments you guys come up with. Galzria was planning on doing a reread because he thought we were commenting on eachothers' posts a lot. Well guess what we were. Because everytime he would post, he'd come to my room and say "hey, did you see what I posted?" and I'd look at it and comment if I felt like it. So boom, there's Galz's argument. Remember all those other people he was also trying to do rereads of? Funny how they aren't suspicious but I am. This seems like really misguided tunnelling based on an obsolete hunch that me and Munch were scumbuddies, eHalcyon.
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one defense of shraeye i thought of over the break- themunch's twin-claim explains shraeye's adoption of a more hypermasculine tone between MIX and this game and explains why he was reluctant ever to directly address anyone who called him out on this. ehalc's 3 points are each pretty devastating, though.
This is a terrible argument; I don't accept your defense. My tone has changed because it changed, and I won't address it because I don't want to. Also, eHalcyon's points are as weak as weak. Honestly, they're exactly the sort of little arguments that are designed to make people want to sheep them. They're infinitely repeatable (like the Munch defended Grujah argument eHalc was yelling about last day) regardless of how much sense I try to make refuting them. Here it is. Point 1 is patently false. Point 2 is him not understanding my logic because he was seeing it through the thickest veil of conspiracies that I've ever seen, he admitted to not having gone back and re-read it with new information yet. Point 3 is a stupid argument. "Here's something I don't buy, but I'll post it like it's an argument anyway in case someone wants to vote for point 3 as well. I mean, anything that gets votes on shraeye is good, whether I buy it or not." Point 4 is absurd tunnelling. Those points suck.
as far as i'm concerned, nobody gets credit for being on the munchwagon.
i want to hear from ibgtennis/theorel, young nick, and voltaire/O.
who wanted galzria dead?
I 100% agree with this piece of logic. We want to look at people we didn't hear from much yesterday, and we want to look at *everybody* who had a reason to want Galz dead. Also, nobody gets credit for an SK lynch.
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OK So, I think we should sheep TheMunch's read on his roomate..
Vote: Shraeye
"I wasnt lying about the ehal thing. Shraeye is my roommate. He is scum."
We know that TheMunch was a serial killer, that means that he could have been truly scum hunting.
I'd be pretty pissed if my RL roomate outed me, but the Munch did go a little crazy at the end of the day.
Vote: Shraeye
Well he might not be 100% accurate. I mean Joth wasn't able to read Glooble in the infamous twinclaim game.
it wasn't a read. This is him out of the blue calling me scum as he rages in his dying breath. If you want to sheep his reads (which could be a good idea actually, since most SKs should at least start out trying equally as hard as town to scumhunt) you should sheep the ones he actually put time into and made cases for.
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For now I am keeping to my own reads and until I see a solid argument on shraeye, other than "TheMunch SK said so" I will vote for my second scum read from yesterday after TheMunch and vote: Young Nick
Hey, somebody with sense! I like you yuma, please be the new Galz!
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@ehalc after re-reading the post where shraeye figured out themunch was sk, i think your points 1 and 2 aren't that compelling - shraeye was pointing out how broken themunch's abilities would be if themunch were town or mafia but that they were consistent with SK, and i agree with his analysis pretty thoroughly. i agree though that if shraeye were mafia it would be easier for him to come to this conclusion.
your point 3 is still compelling. it's impossible to know if "shraeye is scum" was coming from a ragequitting roommate who knew too much or was just WIFOM, but we have to weigh the chances that it's the former, especially since his quit seemed a lot like a ragequit.
As for your point 4, I'm not sure if shraeye would want Galzria dead or not. One thing that's funny to me - the thrust of Galzria's case on theMunch was dead wrong! Galzria found theMunch scummy for his futile attempts at derailing the Grujah wagon. But Grujah and theMunch didn't actually share an alignment! TheMunch just had the bad luck to defend the wrong person. (and let's not lie, we got a little lucky with theMunch's claimtastrophe). So actually, when Galzria went back to re-read shraeye, it wouldn't have been under the assumption that shraeye was aligned with theMunch. OTOH maybe shraeye doesn't want anyone re-reading him at all, especially someone as thorough as Galzria.
Ah, now that I read this piece I feel bad for sarcasming you earlier. You too make sense, so I salute you sir! Go party with yuma in the sense-making room while I sort out all these other guys.
I want people rereading me a lot. Especially eHalcyon. His reads just seem obviously based off of yesterday's gut reactions. Obviously me and Munch shared a connection and now y'all know it. Obviously we weren't on the same team, so it wasn't scum defending scum when I defended him. You all just did reallly realllly bad at understanding what he was saying. I'm pretty sure he was honestly scumhunting hte whole time, and got really upset that he was being pulled under and suspected by such crap arguments. He did not defend Grujah. I'm going to say that 1000 times until you all realize it.
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Ello.
I was hoping i'd replace into a scum role: I was clueless and in over my head D1, now i'm still clueless and in over my head D3.
Rereading a bunch of crap.
Cool great, you're not scum. Don't worry, I won't vote for you. Oh wait, I almost forgot that saying that you aren't scum doesn't make it true. Welcome to the madhouse, O. You too are someone I've seen make good amounts of sense, so I encourage you to use that power wisely.
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don't do it, that's a trap, sheep dead townies with good reads not dead sks with terrible reads
along those lines:
Here is a list of people that Galz (confirmed town, and 2 for 2 on helping town find scum in this game) wanted to look more into: Dsell, TheMunch, Frisk, Shraeye, Cayvie, Voltaire, eHunt, Ashersky.
If I remember correctly he was only able to provide analysis on Dsell, TheMunch, Frisk, and Voltaire. I really wish he had done a reread on Young Nick.
You can check my reread of YoungNick in post #1730 in the other thread. I know it's not Galz, but it's thorough.
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Yep, eHalc is town, almost certainly so.
I don't any more really needs to be revealed from either of us. I have no desire to share eHal's description and would rather him not share mine.
I'm not really a big fan of letting you both dictate towns reads on eachother based on the wine. If you don't want yours shared, that's cool. eHalcyon, are you willing to have your description shared so that we can try to give this duo of towniness some credence? If not, the furthest that I'm willing to be told what to think is to know that you both think the other is town, and slowly this circle of trust y'all are building may expand.
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shraeye, you are aware you're flailing like a caught fish, right?
I'd like to look at ashersky again. He had a serious case on him yesterday. I need to look it over and see if it's still legit.
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Something else to consider: theorel is lurking like a beast.
ibgtennis made 12 posts D1 before replacing out. Theorel made 3 posts saying he's the new ibgtennis. That's the entirety of their contributions this game. 15 posts. 15 posts is nothing!
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I started the day revved up with frustration at a lot of people for how yesterday went down. I vented it, I'm cool now. The day you see me flailing under pressure will be a special day indeed.
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Something else to consider: theorel is lurking like a beast.
ibgtennis made 12 posts D1 before replacing out. Theorel made 3 posts saying he's the new ibgtennis. That's the entirety of their contributions this game. 15 posts. 15 posts is nothing!
I'm down with this.
Vote: theorel
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And I think lurking after replacing is scummier than normal lurking, because theorel couldn't have not know what he was getting into.
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Something else to consider: theorel is lurking like a beast.
ibgtennis made 12 posts D1 before replacing out. Theorel made 3 posts saying he's the new ibgtennis. That's the entirety of their contributions this game. 15 posts. 15 posts is nothing!
He's online.
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Yep, eHalc is town, almost certainly so.
I don't any more really needs to be revealed from either of us. I have no desire to share eHal's description and would rather him not share mine.
I'm not really a big fan of letting you both dictate towns reads on eachother based on the wine. If you don't want yours shared, that's cool. eHalcyon, are you willing to have your description shared so that we can try to give this duo of towniness some credence? If not, the furthest that I'm willing to be told what to think is to know that you both think the other is town, and slowly this circle of trust y'all are building may expand.
I'm not really a big fan of you telling us we should reveal our descriptions.
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Notice how I didn't do that.
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If they're both scum, then it wasn't very smart for them to tie themselves together like that. We shouldn't trust them 100%, but I personally had a town read on eHalc before, so...
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If they're both scum, then it wasn't very smart for them to tie themselves together like that. We shouldn't trust them 100%, but I personally had a town read on eHalc before, so...
samesies. eHalc is so town I'm bleeding. and eHalc seems to say there's something special about the description that convinces eHalc that DSell is town. moreover scum-DSell could easily have sent it to a scumbuddy and claimed he didn't learn much. so DSell looks a lot better.
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Notice how I didn't do that.
But you effectively did, by asking eHal if he's cool with sharing his description. There really should be no reason whatsoever to believe it. Either we're both town or we're both mafia at this point. That or Robz is trolling big time with these descriptions.
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Yeah, sorry about yesterday. I definitely lurked a lot. Just getting into the flow of the game was hard, and I don't really do well at the whole "jump in whenever" type thing. Also, I ended up busy most of Sat-Mon, which was 3 of the 4 days this game has had since I replaced in. (I'm generally not on a LOT on the weekend, but if something's going on that some time online drops to NO time online.)
Anyways, enough excuses. I'm here now, XII is in night, so this game has my full "mafia-gaming" attention.
So, here are some random things that have crossed my mind:
1. all night-kills are accounted for by a single scum-team + SK. No need for a vig or second scumteam. Now, such roles might still exist, and have been blocked, but they aren't necessary.
2. Shraeye noted that town-cred should not be given for the SK-kill. I agree with this sentiment. Ultimately it's neutral, but the implications of neutrality merit some exploration.
a. Scum wanted to lynch theMunch. From their perspective he was "not one of them", and therefore a good lynch.
b. theMunch WAS working against the town win-con. Therefore it was pro-town to notice his anti-town behavior and stop it.
-the importance here is that scum had different reasons to WANT theMunch lynched, and therefore their arguments will be different.
So, there is value in theMunch's wagon, but if anything is to be drawn from it, it should be done with care.
Since I'm not rereading day1 in its entirety (although I will go back over individual's posts there somewhat as needed), I'm going to be trying to get what I can out of day2. I am going to try to reread some people (which means I'll be lurking some more, but hopefully coming back with some value). I'm going to concentrate on the intersection of people who voted FOR theMunch but NOT for Grujah. I think the same sort of mentality that won't bus leads to the mentality that DOES go after non-scum. So, to me, (without knowing who exactly is in this category), it seems more likely that we'll find scum here. The same could be said of those that voted FOR Grujah but NOT for theMunch (This would be scum looking for town-cred). Except, that I think that group is overall less likely to contain scum.
Note: I'm not saying that the people who I'm analyzing are automatically suspicious, but that their behavior lends some suspicion, and probably merits review. Now to see who I'll be trying to reread.
Final point: shraeye's random respond to each post individually is a bit ridiculous. Slow down a bit, you look ridiculous.
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I'm withholding opinion until I can do a reread on both. Yesterday, I was really frustrated with eHalcyon, who I felt kept pushing the Munch defends Grujah bit way too hard. Some of that frustration spilled through to today. Every day I reset my reads, and try to reread important people and people who I suspect for any reason (including past suspicions). I like to keep my reads fresh so I don't lock into a bad read early and refuse to give it up.
But these things still stand. I'm not going to trust their towniness 100%, but I'm taking it into consideration. It can be tough to tell an alignment from description only though. Also, my vote on theorel is well-placed. That guy (plus his earlier half) posted a total of 15 times in a #2000 post game....
PPE: now 16 times.
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i was going to vote for dsell today but it's pretty townish that he chose ehalc to give the wine to.
why is that particularly townish?
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Something else to consider: theorel is lurking like a beast.
ibgtennis made 12 posts D1 before replacing out. Theorel made 3 posts saying he's the new ibgtennis. That's the entirety of their contributions this game. 15 posts. 15 posts is nothing!
I'm down with this.
Vote: theorel
Eager to start a new wagon once the opportunity presents itself?
Yeah, I never usually vote right off the bat but VOTE: shraeye. If Munch was lying about shraeye being scum, then that's just stupid. What would that accomplish? Maybe he wanted revenge on us for "finding him out" and so he steered the town in the wrong direction. But what would that do? It changes the outcome of the game for the worse for town... and hey Munch still lost! So what is the point of messing with our minds like that? Of course, looking at the other side, if he's telling the truth, he just made things worse for scum, his own roommate even. Maybe he just let it slip? Even without looking at Munch's "reveal", shraeye has been acting extraordinarily weird to me, making many personal appeals to people, declaring everyone else's arguments (mostly those that put him in a worse position) terrible, all in an octuple-post. He's mostly been doing this all game sure, but eight posts in a row?
He's gonna call my arguments terrible now because it puts him in a worse position.
PPE: Theorel un-lurked.
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Notice how I didn't do that.
But you effectively did, by asking eHal if he's cool with sharing his description. There really should be no reason whatsoever to believe it. Either we're both town or we're both mafia at this point. That or Robz is trolling big time with these descriptions.
Not really. You didn't want yours shared, and I respected that. I asked if eHalc wanted his to be shared or not. That is absolutely not "you telling us we should reveal our descriptions."
I don't know how descriptive the descriptions are. Mine is pretty descriptive, but that doesn't mean they all are. So it's possible that you're both town, or both mafia, or town/mafia in my eyes right now. Some of these are more likely scenarios, but I'm not ruling anything out.
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shraeye, you are aware you're flailing like a caught fish, right?
I'd like to look at ashersky again. He had a serious case on him yesterday. I need to look it over and see if it's still legit.
His responses here reminds me of ehunt in MVIII at the beginning of day 3, I think, where I coached ehunt down off his frequent and somewhat overreacted (town) response to suspicion.
I think both have somewhat similar personalities... ehunt would you agree?
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Something else to consider: theorel is lurking like a beast.
ibgtennis made 12 posts D1 before replacing out. Theorel made 3 posts saying he's the new ibgtennis. That's the entirety of their contributions this game. 15 posts. 15 posts is nothing!
I'm down with this.
Vote: theorel
Eager to start a new wagon once the opportunity presents itself?
Yeah, I never usually vote right off the bat but VOTE: shraeye. If Munch was lying about shraeye being scum, then that's just stupid. What would that accomplish? Maybe he wanted revenge on us for "finding him out" and so he steered the town in the wrong direction. But what would that do? It changes the outcome of the game for the worse for town... and hey Munch still lost! So what is the point of messing with our minds like that? Of course, looking at the other side, if he's telling the truth, he just made things worse for scum, his own roommate even. Maybe he just let it slip? Even without looking at Munch's "reveal", shraeye has been acting extraordinarily weird to me, making many personal appeals to people, declaring everyone else's arguments (mostly those that put him in a worse position) terrible, all in an octuple-post. He's mostly been doing this all game sure, but eight posts in a row?
He's gonna call my arguments terrible now because it puts him in a worse position.
PPE: Theorel un-lurked.
sparky what do you think of Cuzz's reveal that he is fairly certain that at least one of ashersky and shraeye is town?
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shraeye, you are aware you're flailing like a caught fish, right?
I'd like to look at ashersky again. He had a serious case on him yesterday. I need to look it over and see if it's still legit.
His responses here reminds me of ehunt in MVIII at the beginning of day 3, I think, where I coached ehunt down off his frequent and somewhat overreacted (town) response to suspicion.
I think both have somewhat similar personalities... ehunt would you agree?
i resent this. I'm overreacting to terrible logic, not suspicion. I could care less if I have votes on me. My goal is to get town talking about the right things. 4 of my 8 posts were just me congratulating people on using logic, or asking them to use their mafia-prowess for good.
Also, I liked theorels post, I'm looking forward to his contributions.
unvote
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shraeye, you are aware you're flailing like a caught fish, right?
I'd like to look at ashersky again. He had a serious case on him yesterday. I need to look it over and see if it's still legit.
His responses here reminds me of ehunt in MVIII at the beginning of day 3, I think, where I coached ehunt down off his frequent and somewhat overreacted (town) response to suspicion.
I think both have somewhat similar personalities... ehunt would you agree?
i resent this. I'm overreacting to terrible logic, not suspicion. I could care less if I have votes on me. My goal is to get town talking about the right things. 4 of my 8 posts were just me congratulating people on using logic, or asking them to use their mafia-prowess for good.
Also, I liked theorels post, I'm looking forward to his contributions.
unvote
"reminds" is not the same as "exactly the same"
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sparky what do you think of Cuzz's reveal that he is fairly certain that at least one of ashersky and shraeye is town?
I have to question why. Particularly because of the use of the words "some certainty". It's REALLY hard to be certain in mafia, with very few exceptions. And I found both to be scummy so... >.>
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I just checked the intersection...
looks like: Frisk, Shraeye, Dsell. All voted FOR munch and NOT for Grujah.
That's a much smaller group then I would have expected.
Dsell is "cleared" by eHalc (also by Galzria's supposition)
Shraeye is already under a good amount of heat here, and I have a confirmation bias that annoying inflammatory people are scum. (i.e. I already think he's scum just for his posting pattern)
Frisk, I don't know anything about really at this juncture.
Anyways, I'll still reread them and see if anything jumps out, but I feel less certain that scum needs to be there, just because the group is so small.
It actually looks more to me like the same people just feel like they have to vote to be heard/seen, a sentiment which bothers me, but I'm not sure I entirely disagree with after MVIII. (i.e. people pretty much ignore any contributions you make unless you vote with them)
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shraeye, you are aware you're flailing like a caught fish, right?
I'd like to look at ashersky again. He had a serious case on him yesterday. I need to look it over and see if it's still legit.
His responses here reminds me of ehunt in MVIII at the beginning of day 3, I think, where I coached ehunt down off his frequent and somewhat overreacted (town) response to suspicion.
I think both have somewhat similar personalities... ehunt would you agree?
i resent this. I'm overreacting to terrible logic, not suspicion. I could care less if I have votes on me. My goal is to get town talking about the right things. 4 of my 8 posts were just me congratulating people on using logic, or asking them to use their mafia-prowess for good.
Also, I liked theorels post, I'm looking forward to his contributions.
unvote
"reminds" is not the same as "exactly the same"
But "reminds" reminds me of "exactly the same"...
shraeye was approximately this flaily Day 1 when his wagon was forming.
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I do not like Cuzz's reveal as town. It's kind of useless, and it lets mafia know he's some kind of limited investigation role. Reminds me of SFS's first game actually.
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Eager to start a new wagon once the opportunity presents itself?
Yeah, I never usually vote right off the bat but VOTE: shraeye. If Munch was lying about shraeye being scum, then that's just stupid....Of course, looking at the other side, if he's telling the truth, he just made things worse for scum, his own roommate even. Maybe he just let it slip.
He's gonna call my arguments terrible now because it puts him in a worse position.
Precalling me out in case I decide to say your arguments are terrible is never a deterrent for me pointing out terrible arguments.
How could Munch "let slip" something he didn't know? If we were both on the same scumteam, this would make sense. But we weren't soo....? Munch made plenty of reads yesterday, and he backed them up with his own style of poorly worded arguments. But if you're going to decide to sheep Munch, surely you can do better than a single "he's scum!" with zero reasoning behind it.
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I'm going to ignore you all and reread Frisk. Keep those votes coming, I love a good laugh.
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Unvote
Something else to consider: theorel is lurking like a beast.
ibgtennis made 12 posts D1 before replacing out. Theorel made 3 posts saying he's the new ibgtennis. That's the entirety of their contributions this game. 15 posts. 15 posts is nothing!
I'm down with this.
Vote: theorel
Eager to start a new wagon once the opportunity presents itself?
Yeah, I never usually vote right off the bat but VOTE: shraeye. If Munch was lying about shraeye being scum, then that's just stupid. What would that accomplish? Maybe he wanted revenge on us for "finding him out" and so he steered the town in the wrong direction. But what would that do? It changes the outcome of the game for the worse for town... and hey Munch still lost! So what is the point of messing with our minds like that? Of course, looking at the other side, if he's telling the truth, he just made things worse for scum, his own roommate even. Maybe he just let it slip? Even without looking at Munch's "reveal", shraeye has been acting extraordinarily weird to me, making many personal appeals to people, declaring everyone else's arguments (mostly those that put him in a worse position) terrible, all in an octuple-post. He's mostly been doing this all game sure, but eight posts in a row?
He's gonna call my arguments terrible now because it puts him in a worse position.
PPE: Theorel un-lurked.
This is actually a really terrible post, especially the PPE. I'm going to reread sparky.
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I do not like Cuzz's reveal as town. It's kind of useless, and it lets mafia know he's some kind of limited investigation role. Reminds me of SFS's first game actually.
What I was thinking.
Also, I have to note, one death last night? The first night had three deaths, one of which though was only likely caused by the death of their lover. So, two kills, probable that they were from the mafia and SK. Is it likely that we're only working with one large scum team here?
Let me bring up #1930 by shraeye:
c'mon cayvie, vote Munch. Didn't you said that it's only bad for you if you lynch town?
Now you're avoiding all wagons while trying to advocate for it. this is a legit wagon, I know it. And if you know it too, back that up with a vote.
Further evidence in my eyes that they knew each others roles somehow. They are roommates after all. Which means he flat-out lied to me about:
How could Munch "let slip" something he didn't know? If we were both on the same scumteam, this would make sense. But we weren't soo....?
And I don't get the last sentence of your post.
Also I'm curious as to why my posts are terrible.
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Let me bring up #1930 by shraeye:
c'mon cayvie, vote Munch. Didn't you said that it's only bad for you if you lynch town?
Now you're avoiding all wagons while trying to advocate for it. this is a legit wagon, I know it. And if you know it too, back that up with a vote.
Further evidence in my eyes that they knew each others roles somehow. They are roommates after all. Which means he flat-out lied to me about:
How could Munch "let slip" something he didn't know? If we were both on the same scumteam, this would make sense. But we weren't soo....?
You should keep rewinding to the part where I figured out that he was SK. That's probably why I was so certain he was SK.
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shraeye, you are aware you're flailing like a caught fish, right?
I'd like to look at ashersky again. He had a serious case on him yesterday. I need to look it over and see if it's still legit.
His responses here reminds me of ehunt in MVIII at the beginning of day 3, I think, where I coached ehunt down off his frequent and somewhat overreacted (town) response to suspicion.
I think both have somewhat similar personalities... ehunt would you agree?
I don't find my personality that similar to shraeye's, although introspection and figuring-out-what-people-are-like-from-how-they-behave-on-the-internet are both very challenging things.
Where I agree with you is this: I don't think defensiveness under pressure (which is something shraeye and I definitely do have in common) is a scumtell.
I think the shraeye wagon needs to slow down, given the Cuzzvestigation (whether you agree with Cuzz's strategy of disclosing it or not).
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Man shraeye's tough to reread. He's sort of annoying to listen to sometimes and I always want to vote for those people but honestly people who frustrate me are like never scum, scum aren't usually annoying. I reread some of his D2, and a lot of his posts are pretty good, when he's not being condescending.
srsly don't listen to munch's reads they were never particularly good, lets move on from that argument
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You should keep rewinding to the part where I figured out that he was SK. That's probably why I was so certain he was SK.
Not very convinced.
Also #1897:
If he targets scum, he doesn't die and gets his NK. I'm 100% convinced he's a SK, and that would mean that tonight we have one less town-death. I don't understand why a known SK would ever be a bad lynch. FoS: DSell.
Isn't 100% a BIT too high?
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I reread some of [shraeye's] D2, and a lot of his posts are pretty good, when he's not being condescending.
Ugh, this is true and hits home. I will work on being less abrasive.
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Worth re-reading: Galz's #1676 on page 68.
I re-read to review ashersky. He was scummy yesterday, but I do think a shraeye lynch would shed good light on him. In fact, his whole wagon is made up of people I have neutral reads on, and shraeye, so I would learn a lot from ashersky's flip. I'm not going to vote anyone yet, but I'm likely to vote either ash or shraeye. ashersky, I'd love for you to weigh in on the night's events and the day so far.
A bit scummy, for low participation: Frisk and Young Nick
Flying under the radar: cayvie, who at least once yesterday promised a re-read + big case but, as far as I can tell, never delivered.
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I'm not going to vote anyone yet, but I'm likely to vote either ash or shraeye.
So are you basically saying that you do not believe Cuzz's claim?
Because if you do consider his claim to be valid--whether or not it was the correct thing to tell us at this time--lynching someone that has at least a 50% chance of being town is not the best odds for finding scum...
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I'm not going to vote anyone yet, but I'm likely to vote either ash or shraeye.
So are you basically saying that you do not believe Cuzz's claim?
Because if you do consider his claim to be valid--whether or not it was the correct thing to tell us at this time--lynching someone that has at least a 50% chance of being town is not the best odds for finding scum...
(1) No particular reason to trust Cuzz.
(2) If one of them is town, I'm pretty certain the other one is town. So lynching someone that has a 50% chance of being scum seems pretty good to me.
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I'm not going to vote anyone yet, but I'm likely to vote either ash or shraeye.
So are you basically saying that you do not believe Cuzz's claim?
Because if you do consider his claim to be valid--whether or not it was the correct thing to tell us at this time--lynching someone that has at least a 50% chance of being town is not the best odds for finding scum...
(1) No particular reason to trust Cuzz.
(2) If one of them is town, I'm pretty certain the other one is town. So lynching someone that has a 50% chance of being scum seems pretty good to me.
I'm not sure why one of us being town means the other is scum (hopefully that's what you mean?). It is possible that we both are town, and if this is true, it would be super terrible, especially if one of us is a PR. Lynching the town-PR would make the other person a confirmed town (if you believe Cuzz), and they would be an easy night target. If you leave us both alive into the night, then mafia may risk to kill one of us. But if they hit the non-VT then we have a confirmed VT during the day, which is much better (again, this assumes you believe Cuzz). But I guess if one of us is scum, then you are leaving a scum alive, and mafia wouldn't NK either of us, as removing their own team at night is just stupid, and removing the VT takes the protection off their scumbuddy. Man, I guess that is a bit of wine there. I propose that ashersky and I deserve a thorough reading by more than one person (not just sheeping the first writeup that appears on either one of us). If you're getting super scum-vibes on both of us, then Cuzz is lying and you just found 3 scum (that's not very likely). If you're getting scum-vibes on neither of us, then keeping us around is a really good idea, because we would then both be very dangerous NK targets for mafia, as we get to play the next day with a Cuzz-confirmed townie.
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I'm saying that based on my own reads, I would be highly surprised if one or the other of you isn't scum.
So from that perspective, Cuzz's info reads as "they're not both scum." Well, helpful to keep in mind, but won't change anything in terms of one of them being scum.
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I'm not going to vote anyone yet, but I'm likely to vote either ash or shraeye.
So are you basically saying that you do not believe Cuzz's claim?
Because if you do consider his claim to be valid--whether or not it was the correct thing to tell us at this time--lynching someone that has at least a 50% chance of being town is not the best odds for finding scum...
(1) No particular reason to trust Cuzz.
(2) If one of them is town, I'm pretty certain the other one is town. So lynching someone that has a 50% chance of being scum seems pretty good to me.
I think you misstated (2) and meant "if one is town, the other is probably scum." Cuzz has explicitly denied that that's what he meant; see his post above in response to mine.
As far as (1) is concerned - I completely disagree - Cuzz is almost surely telling the truth. If Cuzz is mafia fake-claiming an investigative role, then
A. he's not going to give us "at least one of these people is a VT." He's going to give us "I know for a fact that [whichever one is his scumbuddy] is a VT."
B. even ignoring that particular weirdness, it's just such a bad strategy for mafia to fake-claim investigator with a town result on fellow mafia, especially when we don't have open roles. all it takes is one PR figuring out that his claim is false and he's hosed and he's brought his partner down too. Now, it's not a great town-strategy to disclose town-investigation-results this early (as the computer simulations in Day 1 of MVIII show!) so either way we have Cuzz playing suboptimally - but if he were mafia AND the folks he were acquitting were mafia, it would be so suboptimal as to be gamebreaking; as town it's non-obviously suboptimal (and given the amount of heat shraeye in particular is taking it might not be suboptimal at all).
--sidenote i was texting my friend while i wrote this and i typed "invite" and it was autocorrected to "unvote" - my phone is awesome
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I think you misstated (2) and meant "if one is town, the other is probably scum." Cuzz has explicitly denied that that's what he meant; see his post above in response to mine.
I know what Cuzz meant. I'm talking about my own reads here. Before Cuzz said anything, I was already of the opinion that one but not both of them was scum, based on their D2 interactions (shraeye makes a big case on ash). So Cuzz's info doesn't change things for me. So one of them is town, ok. But the other one isnt.
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Also, not such a terrible scum play, actually. This way Cuzz could direct attention from BOTH of them while still having deniability if whichever one of them is his buddy is lynched later. Couldn't do that with a full investigative claim.
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I appreciate those who have remarked that my early info reveal may have been unwise. Point taken, but it's out there and I can't take it back now.
Based on the conversation so far, I actually would be able to refine/update the information at this time, but it might be best to hold off on that for now.
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Reread on Frisk, commentary on individual actions as I write them, summary at end. after making summary, I'll go through the bullet points I made and BOLD the ones that I think are the most informative.
--Frisk initially showed up in post #376 where he defended my sarcastic "scumslip", made a slight defense of Morgrim by saying Morg-hunting isn't a scumtell. He then weighs in on that actilurking business twice including answering watno who properly defines it.
--Then in #457 he policy votes Munch for when TheMunch became TheCheat by editing his post. (as I recall, this vote stayed on a long time too). Then he gets into a discussion about his mega-scumslip one time.
--In #718 he says that he's not up for lynching Frisk for always being scum "because I'm not this time.
--In #723 he says his lurking is because of the size and madness of this game (this game IS crazy big; true, that)
--Then he questions why double-voting is anti-town.
--In #767 yuma reminds Frisk that in 5 posts he had not responded to the following question
Frisk: what did you think of the wagon that formed on me? Do you still want your vote on TheMunch?
by saying this in post #770
Don't have a strong reaction to your case. Idevice posting now.
As for the munch - no, I don't really want it, but why unvote? Just more record keeping for robz - and as his double scum buddy - I have his back in this game.
So he again avoids weighing in on something, then says his Munch vote is obsolete but still doesn't remove it.
--In post #922/923 Frisk suggests to YoungNick just to skip everything as Frisk did (I hope he's joking). His two sentence summary was
nothing happened that you can't read later, and o may have been scummy.
...
Oh, and the munch edited a post
--In #926 he proposes his infamous day-vig alternative to the lynch, which I edit for clarity because many people misunderstood what he meant I think.
[Edited for clarity]How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be most willing to hand the power of your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
I thought this was a really neat idea, many players thought it was terrible and that Frisk was scummy to propose it. It certainly would have provided us with very interesting information as we could line up people's lists of who is the most trustworthy with a lot of known flips now that we're in day 3.
--Frisk is made to defend it in #938, and he does.
BOLD--Post #1028 he "bites the bullet and does a full read", which takes him 2 hours 10 minutes, and gives the following summary
Dsell RVS's Morgrim
Lots of people jump on him for it:
Additional Vote is identified
igbtennis wagon started for lurking
we had a mini shraeye wagon for a scum slip
cayvie let us know that she'll be unvoting off of wagons
yuma thought this was strange - and a wagon started on him for it
we dicked around for a while - O started picking up votes for not participating
eevee confirms presence of cult
we goofed off for a while
the munch called O a bad person
we had a discussion of being civil
shraeye called a bunch of people idiots
young nick arrives on the scene after VLA. Surprisingly nobody mentioned this at all except for RobZ's intro post
We goofed around some more. I suggested an alternative way to break the majority rule. Nobody was interested
It still seems like he's finding this a very unengaging game. I had forgotten about the silly wagon on DSell over morgrim-voting, man. Those were the times, way back at post onehundredandsomething, right? Nostalgia over, restart reading.
--After analyzing all the various wagons, he most prefers voting for shraeye because of me calling people idiots. (post#1053)
--In post #1055 he puts down interesting info like this
Other people I didn't like:
ehunt: actively trying to prevent information dispersal. I don't like it, but it feels too agressive to be scummy
TheMunch getting personal: I previously found O's play frustrating as well. The difference between this and shraeye though is that this was isn't cracking under pressure.
Voltaire: Insomniac's post #509 pretty much sums up my thoughts here.
Lurkers: igbtennis, ashersky, (young_nick has an excuse), Cuzz, Glooble, Morgrim7
Regarding the yuma wagon: Yuma is too smart for that to be scummy behavior.
So has bad reads on ehunt, voltaire [(now O)], and Munch. He also adds a bad gut-feel on watno in post #1058. Calls out lurkers, and grujah is not on this list. This is still a few hundred posts before grujah's wagon caught on serious speed, but I feel like that's worth noting. This list, however, was made from his +/- % post counts, and Grujah was the 9th worst there, so it's understandable that only the top 5 get listed.
--In post #1062 he suggests the plurality method of getting a D1 lynch.
BOLD--A small conversation with Cuzz. This is a total D1-style gut-feeling read but this sounds a bit like the way I expect scum to talk to eachother. Light chiding, easy forgiving, but still discussing an issue or a "flaw" of one person.
Cuzz says: Do people feel like I'm lurking? I was V/LA for the first 3 days of the game, and I'd probably be in the lower half of posters anyway just based on style, so going by absolute # of posts makes it look that way I guess.
I'll happily respond to any questions directed at me, and give my opinion when I have one worth sharing, but I'm not gonna bloat the thread just to avoid being called out for low post count. It's plenty bloated.
Frisk says: Not really any worse than me, but you did call out other people for not participating in #758.
--Frisk debates about whether plurality is a strong idea sometimes taking both sides. But not in a "I'm hedging" way, more in a "I'm trying to work out if this is a good theory-based-option and there's a lot to consider" way. He ends in #1079 by voting yes to the YumaFrisk amendment.
--In #1090 Frisk makes sure that Axxle is confirmed double-voter because he and I were counting my wagon differently due to that.
--In #1448 (yikes, that's a substantial time without a significant post!--oh yeah but he does tend to V/LA over weekends, which was what most of that break #1090-#1448 was) Frisk has caught up and wants to reiterate to ashersky that a nolynch is a bad idea for town.
BOLD--he posts his summary from his catchup in #1449
Vote: O - for not voting this close to deadline.
O's a strange fellow, so I never feel confident in my reads.
Secondary: Voltaire - for pushing that we all push secondary / tertiary votes. This feels like scum trying to give themselves an out to steer away from town consensus.
Tertiary: Shraeye - reasons given during my initial vote.
This happens when Grujah's wagon is at 9 and things were looking close to ending. I'm not sure why this hasn't received more attention yet?? Grujah wasn't anywhere on Frisk's vote-list, nor did Frisk comment on the Grujah wagon at all in his summary from catchup.
--His next post comes right before lock at #1503
Grujah - do you have any pro town advice to give us before RobZ locks us out?
I guess he still thought Grujah was a mislynch??
Day2:
--#1542 Frisk diffuses the early votes on joth, saying that although bussing was possible, looking off wagon gives us some focus on day 2, and is reasonable.
BOLD--#1593 again tells us that looking off wagon is smart; wants to examine
Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?
this turned quickly into who tried to stall or prevent the grujah lynch, and that ended with Ashersky, YoungNick, and the Munch under serious scrutiny. It turns out Munch was SK and wasn't trying to scummily stall Grujah lynch. I think ashersky was innocent here, he got huge heat for his nolynch proposal, but when I reread him I saw that he had already slightly proposed the idea much earlier. YoungNick I had suspicions of all day yesterday, and he's in my queue for a reread (though not very high, since I don't recall him doing that much which would change things since my last reread). But it seems that there were many other Grujah no-lynchers that I'm curious about who didn't get much attention.
--Post #1614 he is surprised that yuma put in a lot of effort to defend his vote on scum. (I could be misinterpreting what he meant with this statement)
Wow Yuma, that is a lot of content for defending a vote on scum.
--He then emphasizes again that we should look off wagon. (it sounds like he's a broken record, but I think the on/off wagon debate was a huge portion of yesterday's conversation, so I forgive people for weighing in a few times I guess)
--In #1688 Frisk asks Galzria about the list of names that Galz wanted to research (when I see people list names, I tend to look for biases; who's thinking about whom and who's forgetting whom are interesting relations. But Frisk looks like he's remembering everyone, and it's my bedtime, so I'm not checking the details right now)
Galz, can you explain a little bit about how you decided to analyze those people?
Most of them were off the grujah wagon - so they naturally had suspicion, but you added eHunt from on the wagon.
The people you left off your list, but were also off the wagon were:
Insomniac
Young Nick
IGBTennis
Sparky
BOLD--Post #1825/1827 Frisk is caught up again after the weekend, likes Galz's case on Munch, and asks for a summary of the ashersky case; then votes for Munch when Munch explains again that he wasn't defending Grujah. This is how Frisk explains it in #1829
You're expressing concern about the speed of the wagon (ie. it must be scum driven to be gaining traction so fast!), while doing your best to not say anything about him that can be held against you later when he flips scum.
Well the things he said clearly were held against him. I'm slightly suspicious of people who kept pushing votes on Munch due specifically to that "contradiction" which felt to me more like a willful disregard for the facts. Yes, Munch wasn't on Grujah's wagon, and he commented on it. But nothing in that comment seems designed to slow down the wagon lynch, ergo it's not defending. I'm much more curious of Joth's statement that people quote Munch as "agreeing with" where joth says "The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch" Why lynch somebody that you recently posted a "townread" on???? Ok, I'm digressing. Back to Friskies. What I really dislike about Frisk's actions here at the end of day 2, is that he posts this
RobZ - we need a vote count. I enjoyed Galz's case on themunch, and would be interested / willing to vote, but while it looks like he has "alot" of votes, I don't want to accidentally hammer.
and then two posts later votes Munch in response to Munch asking if Frisk believes that Munch defended Grujah, and asking Frisk if he read Munch's defense to Galzria's post. Why pretend like you're concerned about the votecount and the numbers and being in a hammering position if you're just going to vote two posts later based on a question about your reads on Munch? That reads to me like somebody who's overly concerned about what position they end up in on a wagon, which is a quality I only attribute to scum.
--Frisk then has a few posts where he's asking Munch about the statement that "if anybody tried to kill Munch, then eHalc is scum"
--Then there's general confusing regarding Munch saying he's VT but has an ability, Frisk facepalms, asks if axxle is voting, and the day ends after a few more posts.
Summary: slight scum read. Frisk can be hard for me to read because of the way most of his posts are quick sentences. I'm much better at sorting out longer posts. He spent a long time not engaged in this game at all it seemed, including his suggestion to YoungNick to just skip stuff. He does reread from time to time it seems, so he is somewhat engaged in the game thought-wise, if not post-wise. Regardless, the help he gave town with the lynch ideas on day 1 feel towny to me. The way he seemed completely oblivious of the Grujah wagon is very weird, but he gets props for pointing off-wagon on day 2 despite him being off wagon. I think his pointing off wagon happened before it was clear that by off wagon, people were meaning Munch/ashersky/YoungNick, so these are some plus town points. Some major/minor things I don't like were his style of unengaged day 1 play, his conversation with Cuzz about lurking, complete avoidance of the Grujah wagon, how it looked like he was worried about where he ended up on the Munch wagon. These are balanced against the positive things that he's done. Slight scum means I'm most definitely hot on his case, he's a curious fellow worth watching, but not worth a lynch at all right now.
@Frisk: here's a question I want to ask. Did you get your summary of the ashersky case? What do you think about it now?
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Frisk, if you didn't fully read the above post, there's a question for you at the end; please answer.
Things this reread has reminded me of:
I want to get another look at who didn't help lynch grujah, and WHY?
Who were the people who kept pushing the argument on Munch due to his "contradiction" when he claims not to have defended Grujah? I can recall some of them, but I want to look at the whole group at once instead of letting my more stale reads taint my memory. I know that the Munch looked scummy yesterday so it was hard to believe him when he kept denying that Grujah wasn't his partner. But now that we know that Grujah wasn't his partner, maybe it's clearer that Munch wasn't contradicting his actions with that claim; some people who didn't see that yesterday were probably misguided. But I suspect that some nonzero number were misguidING (my clever made-up word that implies that some of the people who bought Munch defending Grujah were actually Grujah's partners selling it)
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Vote Count 3.2
shraeye (3) -- Insomniac, Captain_Frisk, sparky5856
Young Nick (1) -- yuma
Not Voting (15) -- ftl, Dsell, Jotheonah, Young Nick, O, cayvie, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7, eHaclyon, watno, ehunt, ashersky, shraeye, Axxle
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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Been away for the last 3ish pages. Will read and respond in maybe an hour or two. I have to eat a late dinner first!
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I will add 2000 to post numbers, for future merging. Also helps keep straight references to the older thread.
General notice: since I have the wine, I need to give it away before the day ends. Try not to end the day before that happens.
Cuzz #2024 -- peculiar information. Not sure what to make of it.
Dsell #28 -- I will keep Dsell's description secret then. I can share mine if enough people want to, but I don't think it would be helpful to town.
shraeye #30 -- I'll quote things from this one to make it easier to respond.
I think shraeye is scum.
I'm going to guess your basic argument even before reading it. "My scumread was off on Munch yesterday, I was convinced that he was Mafia, and it was making me mad that shraeye kept saying he didn't defend Grujah, so instead of reanalyzing my reads, I'm going to move on to assuming Shraeye is scum, because that's gonna work out awesomely!"
Yeah, that's not at all what my argument was.
Scum read wasn't off. Munch was scum, and scum is scum. I thought Mafia was likely due to Grujah defense and that was wrong, oh well. Still found scum. As far as his Grujah defense goes, it WAS a defense. This has been explained multiple times now, by multiple people. shraeye, you are just wrong on that one. Given his SK status, it was more "wrong place wrong time" than protecting his buddy, but it WAS a defense.
And I am indeed reanalysing my reads. The cases you built during day 2 gave me a townier read on you. It's the end of day 2 that has me thinking you are scum.
1. He was oddly worried about Munch's claim of becoming bulletproof.
false, go back and reread. Show me where I was concerned about the specific part where Munch could be bulletproof.
I'll go through and see if my memory is faulty.
Your initial "he's an SK" post is #1887. I posit that your reasoning is incorrect. Your argument was that the role Munch claimed would be OP as scum on a team or as town. This rings false to me. The main thing is the first part:
This is a ridiculous power to give any scum. Simply target your scummate, and boom, you're not killable. Ok, that's ridiculously overpowered.
Bulletproof does not protect scum from lynch, so worrying about that only makes sense if you want to NK this player.
You bring it up again in #1897 (inner quote is Dsell):
f he's SK mafia will kill him. If he's a PR mafia will probably kill him. That's unavoidable at this point since he's claimed.
He can tell us who he'll target every night to at least give us some info to work from.
I don't think he's a good lynch at this point.
If he targets scum, he doesn't die and gets his NK. I'm 100% convinced he's a SK, and that would mean that tonight we have one less town-death. I don't understand why a known SK would ever be a bad lynch. FoS: DSell.
This is kind of odd. I won't discuss it in detail but there is talk in RMM3 about how an SK can be used to town benefit. shraeye might not agree with Dsell's argument, but not understanding it is weird. Furthermore, if you 100% believed that Munch was SK at that point, then why would you FOS Dsell at all? SKs have no buddies, so Dsell could not be his buddy.
Plus the argument itself is meh. Munch might not die if he gained his (fictitious) bulletproof, but it might still absorb the scum NK and be beneficial to town in the end. Plus he can be lynched later, if necessary.
Oh, and I responded to your original QED post in #1903.
And then #1907:
Apparently, unlynchable SKs would not be overpowered, because DSell would have us believe that nobody wants to lynch SK anyway, and that we should leave it for nightactions. I'm not gonna let Munch be unlynchable at all. He's patently SK.
Vote: TheMunch
This is odd that he thinks Munch is unlynchable now. Munch's original claim (again, false) claimed that he would have received protection from a NK. So... unlynchable? It just stood out as odd to me.
And in #1953:
The when-targets-scum part is super obviously pro-selfishSK. That's the part that makes me want to lynch you.
His claimed "when-targets-scum" effect was being protected from a NK. Why was THAT the part that made you want to lynch Munch? Because it meant he could be protected from your Mafia NK? Because it is a way he *might* be able to catch you or your scumbuddies? NK protection isn't worrying for the town because town kills mainly by lynch. Plus the maybe-chance of finding scum isn't scary for town either.
OH, and if we were taking Munch's fake claim as true at that point, Munch would have been good for the town, since he could enhance town powers.
So you decided Munch was scum by assuming his claims were true. But if his claims were true, he was actually far more of a threat to opposing scum than to town.
So I think #1953 was the main post that gave me the feeling you were concerned about his bulletproof "ability".
2. He pegged Munch as SK, and his reasoning did not work for me. Maybe it will make more sense to me on re-read, but the first time through it didn't make sense to me at all. I thought Munch was going to flip Mafia.
That's because you couldn't get past the argument that Munch wasn't defending Grujah. Anytime I said that, you just blocked off the part of your ears that are able to hear logic and started turning on the conspiracy part of your brain where you assumed that me and Munch were scumbuddies. Well we most definitely aren't scumbuddies, so I suggest you actually start trying to understand the sense I was making yesterday.
Already responded to that multiple times by multiple people. Galzria, now confirmed townie, also understood and stated how Munch's behaviour on d1 looked like a defense of Grujah.
In light of Munch's alignment, it is possible that it truly wasn't meant as a defense. But without knowledge of that alignment, it DOES look like a defense.
Perhaps you are so adamant that it wasn't a defense of a buddy because you KNEW Munch wasn't Grujah's buddy... because you are. Hm.
3. Munch's read on his roommate. That means very little to me, actually, but it's still a thing.
No it's not a thing, unless you want to make it one. And if you do, that's just one more reason for you and your scum partners to try to whip the town up into a frenzy over a lot of really poorly reasoned arguments, trying to get a good mislynch happening.
OK, so this is really interesting here.
First of all, I only mentioned it because it's something to keep in mind. Being roommates, his read does have a little more weight -- he knows you IRL, and that counts for something. Obviously it doesn't mean he had a perfect read, and it also doesn't mean he was honest about it. Maybe he just wanted to get in one last jab at his friend. But it was still worth mentioning.
Far more noteworthy is that you are now suggesting that I am scum. This is amazing. Several times throughout d2 you've stated that I was one of your very biggest town reads. But now I'm scum because I suspect you? I didn't even put down a vote! And in arguments above, you even admit that I have been scumhunting (e.g. saying that I assumed on d2 that you and Munch were scumbuddies, though that's actually false). So then where is the logic that I am scum? Do you still believe there are multiple scum teams? Based on the number of kills each night, it really doesn't look that way to me.
4. Galzria said he was planning to do a re-read of shraeye due to his interaction with Munch. Perhaps shraeye did not want that to happen, so they killed him. Certainly Galz put together several strong cases. Maybe one of them was a home run, or maybe scum worried about the forthcoming cases.
Yeah, I killed the only other person trying hard to scumhunt and making sense. Because I loooove listening to the terrible arguments you guys come up with. Galzria was planning on doing a reread because he thought we were commenting on eachothers' posts a lot. Well guess what we were. Because everytime he would post, he'd come to my room and say "hey, did you see what I posted?" and I'd look at it and comment if I felt like it. So boom, there's Galz's argument. Remember all those other people he was also trying to do rereads of? Funny how they aren't suspicious but I am. This seems like really misguided tunnelling based on an obsolete hunch that me and Munch were scumbuddies, eHalcyon.
So your first sarcastic sentence is saying that, if you were scum, you would NOT kill a thorough scumhunter? That comment makes no sense.
It's also wrong to characterize Galz as the only one "trying hard to scumhunt and making sense". Note that several of Galzria's cases repeated points I made. He expanded on those points and was far more thorough than I ever was, but he AGREED with my cases. So who's not making sense?
As for everyone else Galz was planning to re-read, yes, they are suspicious. So are the ones he actually did have time to make cases on. But my post was about why I thought YOU were scummy, so how is the point invalid?
The word "tunnelling" is being misused a lot in this game. You said I was tunnelling Munch too. That was just pushing a correct scum read. I am far from tunnelling on you right now. At that point, I had only made two posts.
And the case was not at all based on you being scumbuddies with Munch. It was based on why you would think Munch was SK instead of Mafia. Because I just don't see that.
Well, that was a big response. Posting this now before continuing...
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Ugh, just noticed that I wrote 28 and 30 above. Those should be 2028 and 2030. Thread splitting, grrrr.
shraeye #2031 -- Mostly a repeat of the earlier bigger post to which I have already responded.
shraeye #2032 -- Well, why would he just call you scum out of the blue? Is he just a jerk IRL?
shraeye #2034 --
I was an extremely thorough townie in my first game, MIII. Epic posts with lots of info. Complete voting records, etc. All the info didn't actually help that much, at least until the late, late game. I don't have that kind of time this game, so I am going off of instinct a bit more. And it has worked out VERY well so far. Grujah d1, Munch d2, and my read on Munch dated back to the middle of d1. My instincts seem decently tuned in this game. I make no apologies for going on gut a bit more.
That said, it is not just gut reads. I explain my arguments and I give post numbers too. I have not argued that it was scummy of you to defend Munch. I don't know where you are getting that, and continuing to whine about it is just building a strawman.
And I will say 1000 times to you in return: to uninformed eyes, Munch indeed appeared to be defending Grujah. My gosh.
shraeye #2035 -- weren't you one of the ones who really railed against O on day 1 for being unhelpful? Or are you referencing other games where you've seen O play?
shraeye #2037 -- Uh, Dsell was not dictating. And again, I'm willing to share if enough people wish, but I don't believe it is beneficial to town.
ehunt #2047 -- to clarify, I can't consider Dsell to be confirmed townie, but his description makes more sense if he is town. There is another way to interpret it, but I find it far less likely.
theorel #2049 -- Hoping that theorel is town because he has some major analytical skills. Seems reasonable there.
And on to the next page....
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ehunt #2047 -- to clarify, I can't consider Dsell to be confirmed townie, but his description makes more sense if he is town. There is another way to interpret it, but I find it far less likely.
I'm really curious about this alternate interpretation of my description. I mean, don't say it now, but after the game or something I want to know what you are thinking.
Also, a couple of the posts you've resurrected here remind me that I have been playing an atrocious, atrocious game. (Defending Grujah, of course, but also saying Munch wasn't a good lynch). Le sigh. I hope to get my act together, because my reads so far have been quite bad. :-\
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@eHalc analysis -- good stuff so far. Shraeye is looking bad.
On the Cuzz reveal, I know he's right, at least. Not sure how it helped the town, since it suds like while can confirm VTness, he can't confirm the other.
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shraeye #2050 --
I don't know why you're so stuck on the "Munch defends Grujah" argument. I explained it and I explained it well. Other people have agreed, including Galzria. So why are you so focused on me making that argument?
It's fine if you want to reset your reads (though if you act on past suspicions, it's not really a hard reset). I choose not to drop every read at the start of every day, because it gives me a good basis from which to start. And so far, my reads have been pretty good. I stuck with AND expanded on my d1 read of Munch; lo and behold, Munch was scum.
sparky #52 -- I'd still take Munch's posts with a grain of salt. Worth keeping in mind, but not as the driving point.
yuma #54 -- Possible. Will keep in mind. But I recall people said that shraeye was acting differently, more aggressively, than he did in his first game (one I didn't follow). So I don't know if it's just an OMGUS-ish response.
shraeye #56 -- I think my logic is just fine, thanks.
shraeye #63 -- Whether you are town or scum, you could stand to be a bit less caustic. It's a game; no need to taunt and insult people even if you truly think they are being dumb.
sparky #65 -- you are counting on them truly knowing each other's roles, but they can't if they have followed game rules. Yes, it's possible that they let something slip IRL. But we should not assume it. I give all players the benefit of the doubt that they are not cheating. shraeye's "I know it" post is more likely hyperbole than "I definitely, absolutely, certainly know".
shraeye #70 -- Sounds good.
yuma #72 -- Cuzz's claim throws a huge wrench here. Coming into d3, shraeye looks way scummier to me and ashersky was probably my biggest scumread after Munch during d2 because of that "hunt the wagon that lynched scum" idea.
ehunt #76 --
I disagree here. If scum-Cuzz were to lie to protect scumbuddies, it would be really really bad to say "I know for sure that [buddy] is VT". It ties them together. If his buddy dies, Cuzz is confirmed liar. If Cuzz dies, buddy becomes far more suspicious (but note: not confirmed scum because Cuzz could have been lying to start).
Claiming "at least one of these two is VT" is good. It throws lots of wine, it doesn't give anything definitive enough that scum-Cuzz could become confirmed liar. Say we kill one and he's not VT. We still don't know if Cuzz is a liar because the other might be a VT. But they might both be lying. Say we kill one and he is scum. Well, Cuzz isn't tied to the scum either. The only possible trap is that the remaining player might be a town PR who can then claim, thus showing Cuzz is a liar. But that outs the PR at that point.
Possibly the BEST thing (from scum-Cuzz perspective) is if BOTH ashersky and shraeye are scumbuddies with Cuzz. The lie byes time by deterring us from lynching either of them. And if we do and we trust Cuzz, then the remaining player might become an IC (for newbies, Innocent Child) in our eyes. People might take it for granted and not question that Cuzz might be lying.
So Cuzz's claim is tough to deal with. I'm not sure what to make of it.
I'm not sure why you think it would be a bad play if they are all mafia together though. ashersky got a lot of heat at d2 end and he isn't looking any less scummy. Shraeye is getting a lot of heat today. It might be worth it to throw in that wine.
Cuzz #79 -- That's good to know. Don't disappear on us today.
shraeye #80 --
Large post about CF. This feels like a LOT of IIoA (newbie guide: information instead of analysis). You quote many quotes and describe what CF is doing over and over again, but very little of it seems to be analysis on whether "this statement is scummy" or "that action is townie" or whatever. It feels very different from the cases you made on d2, where you had legitimate arguments and pulled out relevant quotes. Perhaps I am giving too much credit to your d2 cases.
Anyway, could you pull out the parts that contribute most to your "slight scum read"?
All caught up now.
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I'm trying to get my brain into gear for this game. Here's what I'm doing:
I'm treating the locked thread of days 1 and 2 as a big pool of interaction data. And I'm trying to analyze.
Right now, I'm going through the players, one at a time, and tallying the various interactions they have with other players. I've got four categories: positive, negative, neutral, and votes.
Basically, I want to see what patterns emerge. Obviously, there are going to be some things that skew everyone; I'm expecting people to have had a lot more interactions with Grujah and TheMunch than with, say, ibgtennis/theorel, for obvious reasons. But there's a couple things I'm keeping my eye out for.
1) People who have a lot of negative interactions with each other but don't vote.
2) People who have a lot of neutral interactions.
3) People who completely avoid interacting with each other.
Also, obviously, categorizing these interactions is going to be a very subjective process.
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@eHalc analysis -- good stuff so far. Shraeye is looking bad.
On the Cuzz reveal, I know he's right, at least. Not sure how it helped the town, since it suds like while can confirm VTness, he can't confirm the other.
I was just about to ask what you and shraeye thought of each other, given Cuzz's claim. But it appears you are coming out immediately with a VT claim.
I am not sure, but it might be helpful if shraeye claims VT-or-not-VT. But again, I am not sure. Cuzz' clarification might influence optimal use of his intel as well. Do not actually claim yet -- this is just something the town should discuss.
I find the whole thing a bit silly, but both Munch's real powers and the travelling WIFOM are kind of crazy too. So... yeah.
What do others think of ash, shraeye and Cuzz?
shraeye, what do you think of ashersky, and Cuzz's claim?
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I'm trying to get my brain into gear for this game. Here's what I'm doing:
I'm treating the locked thread of days 1 and 2 as a big pool of interaction data. And I'm trying to analyze.
Right now, I'm going through the players, one at a time, and tallying the various interactions they have with other players. I've got four categories: positive, negative, neutral, and votes.
Basically, I want to see what patterns emerge. Obviously, there are going to be some things that skew everyone; I'm expecting people to have had a lot more interactions with Grujah and TheMunch than with, say, ibgtennis/theorel, for obvious reasons. But there's a couple things I'm keeping my eye out for.
1) People who have a lot of negative interactions with each other but don't vote.
2) People who have a lot of neutral interactions.
3) People who completely avoid interacting with each other.
Also, obviously, categorizing these interactions is going to be a very subjective process.
Do interactions include comments about a player after that player has died? Grujah lurked heavily so there is still less interaction with him than with others.
Also, you're not noting positive interactions?
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I am tallying positive interactions, and I'll include them with the data I present. I just don't presently have any hypotheses about them.
I think I'm going to ignore comments about players after their deaths. Does that seem fair?
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Watno
| NAME | Positive | Neutral | Negative | Votes |
| ftl | | | | |
| Volt/Sparky | | | 1 | |
| Eevee | 2 | 1 | 1 | |
| Grujah | | | 3 | |
| Insomniac | | | 1 | |
| Glooble | | | 1 | |
| Dsell | | 2 | 2 | |
| jotheonah | | 2 | 1 | |
| Young Nick | | | | |
| Voltaire/O | | | 1 | |
| Axxle | 2 | | | |
| O | | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| Cayvie | | 2 | | |
| shraeye | 2 | 1 | 7 | 1 |
| Cuzz | 1 | | | |
| yuma | 3 | 1 | | |
| ibgTheorel | | 1 | | |
| TheMunch | 1 | 3 | 9 | |
| Morgrim7 | | 1 | 2 | |
| eHalcyon | 1 | | 2 | |
| Galzria | 2 | 1 | | |
| Captain_Frisk | | 2 | 4 | 1 |
| ehunt | | | | |
| ashersky | | | 3 | 1 |
I started with this guy mostly at random! He's someone I've had a pretty neutral read on most of the game; I wanted to see what came up.
Things I notice:
No interaction at all with ftl, Young Nick, and ehunt.
One interaction with Cuzz, Glooble, Insomniac, voltsparky, and ibgtheorel
Only neutral interaction with cayvie and ibgheorel.
Had lots of strongly negative interaction with both lynchees, but never actually voted for either.
Seems to be a big fan of Axxle, Galzria, and yuma.
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@eHalc analysis -- good stuff so far. Shraeye is looking bad.
On the Cuzz reveal, I know he's right, at least. Not sure how it helped the town, since it suds like while can confirm VTness, he can't confirm the other.
I was just about to ask what you and shraeye thought of each other, given Cuzz's claim. But it appears you are coming out immediately with a VT claim.
I am not sure, but it might be helpful if shraeye claims VT-or-not-VT. But again, I am not sure. Cuzz' clarification might influence optimal use of his intel as well. Do not actually claim yet -- this is just something the town should discuss.
I find the whole thing a bit silly, but both Munch's real powers and the travelling WIFOM are kind of crazy too. So... yeah.
What do others think of ash, shraeye and Cuzz?
shraeye, what do you think of ashersky, and Cuzz's claim?
I think some pointed out that we were at odds on D2. He does read differently (even more caustic) than in other games we've played together, when he was town.
His reaction to pressure today, including his frisk post, isn't painting him any more town, either.
That's my read on Shraeye in this game. Like I mentioned, I have been in games with town Shraeye and he reads differently, although I don't putas much stock in game to game changes as some others.
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I am tallying positive interactions, and I'll include them with the data I present. I just don't presently have any hypotheses about them.
I think I'm going to ignore comments about players after their deaths. Does that seem fair?
I think so.
Classifying interactions is interesting, but very difficult. For example, would you consider it an interaction how ashersky suggested a no lynch as the Grujah wagon picked up speed? It is not a direct interaction, but it kind of is anyway.
Something that could be helpful is a voting record. I made one for MIII (I was jailkeeper) and I partially made one in MVI (I was scum). Basically listing every vote and unvote each player made and why, and the size of the wagon when it happened. It can be useful. But it would miss suspicion without votes and votes without reason. And while I think we are clear that the former is kind of scummy for being hedgy, the latter is also scummy -- you could vote for scumbuddies to create artificial distance, but if you don't make a real case then there is no danger of the wagon getting out of control and your buddy doesn't come under actual suspicion.
All very subjective, yeah.
Oh, I say this somewhat regularly and I tend to fail at it, but I will try to be less active today (Friday) to get some IRL work done. I may read a bit but I am going to resist responding to posts or making any new cases. I'll try to make time this weekend to re-read a few things. I should refresh views on Cuzz, ashersky and shraeye. igbtennis/theorel is probably a decent re-read (given how short it will be) and Young Nick could use a re-read as well. Also Galzria.
Anyway, time for me to go to bed.
PPE: cayvie, are you noting which post numbers the interactions come from? That would help a lot. And are you only counting interactions in one direction, e.g. for Watno are you reading what Watno said about others, or what others said about Watno, or both? The latter would be more useful but I don't know how you would pull that data... just ctrl+F for Watno's name?
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the data in my table is what watno said about others. it is not reciprocal. that information will be on the other players' tables.
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Young Nick
| NAME | Positive | Neutral | Negative | Votes |
| ftl | | | | |
| Volt/Sparky | | | | |
| Eevee | | 1 | 1 | |
| Grujah | 1 | | | |
| Insomniac | 1 | | | |
| Glooble | | | 1 | |
| Dsell | | 1 | 1 | |
| jotheonah | 2 | 3 | | |
| Voltaire/O | | | | |
| Axxle | | | 1 | 1 |
| O | | | | |
| cayvie | | 1 | | 1 |
| shraeye | 1 | 1 | | |
| cuzz | | | | |
| yuma | 1 | 2 | 1 | |
| ibgtheorel | | 2 | 3 | |
| TheMunch | | 2 | 2 | |
| Morgrim7 | | 1 | 1 | |
| ehalcyon | | 1 | 1 | |
| Watno | | 1 | 1 | |
| Galzria | | 1 | | |
| Captain_Frisk | | | | |
| ehunt | | | | |
| ashersky | 1 | 2 | | |
Well, this is exciting! This project seems to be having the desired effect on me, at least; I'm getting reads again.
A scum one on Young Nick, to be precise.
He's got nearly as many posts as Watno, but significantly fewer interactions. 7 Players he doesn't interact with at all. I'd been giving him a pass for missing so much of D1, but I think I overdid it.
Also, he totally did seem to be a friend to the Grujah, interaction-wise.
Yeah, this would be more useful if I tied the interactions to post links. I'm... not sure what the best way to do that is. Maybe turn each number into a set of tally marks or Xes, each of them hyperlinked? Jeeeeeez.
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@cayvie. Probably if you note the interactive posts somewhere, and then link any interactions that you find specifically informative at the end of the post. For example, in Young Nick's post, you could link to the Grujah-interaction, since you're making it a point of discussion.
Alrighty, all caught up. I'll start with the re-reading now. (I'll save Frisk for last since shraeye already did it...although obviously multiple reviews of the same person can be highly informative, so I still plan on doing it.)
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@theorel - theMunch lynch isn't particularly informational - in that while mafia would be happy to lynch him because he wasn't them, they also had to be wary of being wrong and lynching townies. In fact - I would expect that they expected to be lynching town.
As such - I'd really be looking for scum to have alternated... those who didn't bus Grujah would want to steer clear of a mislynch, and those who did bus him can spend a little town cred on a mislynch.
Vote: theorel
He's better than this.
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@Frisk.
That was kind of my point. Mafia wanted to lynch him, but thought he was town (wrongly). Town that wanted to lynch him thought he was scum (rightly). This is different from the usual town mislynch in that the target actually WAS scum (so there's less misinformation and potentially lower information distortion to make the lynch happen), but different from the usual scum lynch because mafia didn't know they were lynching scum. So, I still argue that the lynch has the potential to be informational (you even proceed to say about as much, i.e. you expect scum to alternate, that means that the wagon contains information, you're just expecting different behavior than I did).
And I find that position reasonable. It's not really how I thought of it, but I can see what you're saying. I've never thought about the idea of "building" and "spending" town-cred. I was thinking more along the lines of consistently risky vs. safe scum-play. (i.e. risky scum-play is to be more anti-town, while safe scum-play tries to seem more pro-town). But it's plausible that scum would try to balance pro-town and anti-town behavior. I'm not sure which POV is more reasonable historically...I'll think on it. (As one example, MVIII: you were consistently anti-town while alive (Lekkit and Insomniac, directing away from Robz), while Robz switched from anti-town (Lekkit) to pro-town (Frisk), and stuck pro-town by bussing O until death. O meanwhile was anti-town (no-lynch, then Insomniac, derailing Frisk) for most the game, until he bussed Robz (with an attempt to hit Galzria also). This at least suggests that consistently pro-town behavior is unlikely while consistently anti-town behavior is more reasonable, especially for days 1 & 2)
I would give your opinion more weight here if you weren't one of the people implicated, but I will try to consider the "balanced" scum-play position next.
Anyways, as noted after actually figuring out who was there, it's only 3 people, I'm certainly not sold on the idea that there is a scum there.
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Hey all. I'm V/LA for at least the weekend. More on the LA side - I ought to have some time to check in, but given how this game cooks I might spend all of that reading. cayvie, glad to see you on the hunt.
eHalc, you know I already made that point about Cuzz's claim. yuma's willingness to believe it and insistence on making sure the rest of us don't forget it (2072) is a bit suspicious to me also.
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V/LA for long weekend. Frisk, you're reading theorel backwards.
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Scum read wasn't off. Munch was scum, and scum is scum. I thought Mafia was likely due to Grujah defense and that was wrong, oh well. Still found scum. As far as his Grujah defense goes, it WAS a defense. This has been explained multiple times now, by multiple people. shraeye, you are just wrong on that one. Given his SK status, it was more "wrong place wrong time" than protecting his buddy, but it WAS a defense.
I'm not backing down from my opinion here. People have said, it is a super soft defense, but it is a defense. A lot of people. But numbers behind an argument don't make it correct. Oh cool, confirmed townie Galz thought this as well. Well confirmed townie Galz was also wrong. Just because he's conftown, doesn't make all his arguments golden. Munch's "defense" are just innocent words that were not trying to derail the lynch at all. At this point both sides of this argument (which I realize is just me versus everybody else) are not backing down and just repeating their case ad nauseam. It's detracting from actual scumhunting at this point, so I'm done.
This is a ridiculous power to give any scum. Simply target your scummate, and boom, you're not killable. Ok, that's ridiculously overpowered.
Bulletproof does not protect scum from lynch, so worrying about that only makes sense if you want to NK this player.
True, that. But if you look below DSell is arguing that SK isn't a good lynch because we can use him for town, and that we should just leave him for nighttime when mafia because "If he's SK mafia will kill him." But if we refuse to lynch him during the day because he's a useful SK, and he doesn't die at night ever, that is the case where we're having to lynch an SK later close to the endgame, which is much more dangerous for town, as I believe mafia won another game where a late lynch went to the SK.
You bring it up again in #1897 (inner quote is Dsell):
f he's SK mafia will kill him. If he's a PR mafia will probably kill him. That's unavoidable at this point since he's claimed.
He can tell us who he'll target every night to at least give us some info to work from.
I don't think he's a good lynch at this point.
If he targets scum, he doesn't die and gets his NK. I'm 100% convinced he's a SK, and that would mean that tonight we have one less town-death. I don't understand why a known SK would ever be a bad lynch. FoS: DSell.
This is kind of odd. I won't discuss it in detail but there is talk in RMM3 about how an SK can be used to town benefit. shraeye might not agree with Dsell's argument, but not understanding it is weird. Furthermore, if you 100% believed that Munch was SK at that point, then why would you FOS Dsell at all? SKs have no buddies, so Dsell could not be his buddy.
Plus the argument itself is meh. Munch might not die if he gained his (fictitious) bulletproof, but it might still absorb the scum NK and be beneficial to town in the end. Plus he can be lynched later, if necessary.
I didn't FoS Dsell because I thought he was Munch's buddy, that wasn't my reason. It was for wanting to not lynch a found SK, which I still think was a good lynch. HIS BULLETPROOF ABILITY WAS NOT FICTICIOUS; READ HIS ROLEPOST.
And then #1907:
Apparently, unlynchable SKs would not be overpowered, because DSell would have us believe that nobody wants to lynch SK anyway, and that we should leave it for nightactions. I'm not gonna let Munch be unlynchable at all. He's patently SK.
Vote: TheMunch
This is odd that he thinks Munch is unlynchable now. Munch's original claim (again, false) claimed that he would have received protection from a NK. So... unlynchable? It just stood out as odd to me.
This is what I'm saying. If people bought Dsell's argument that we should not lynch SK, use his nightkills for town, then in my eyes he's becoming unlynchable. Somebody that the group is unwilling to lynch.
OH, and if we were taking Munch's fake claim as true at that point, Munch would have been good for the town, since he could enhance town powers.
I seriously doubt that Munch would have also let us direct his night powers towards town. His kill, maybe, because we can see that information. But you bet he was gunning for scum to get night-protection. That's how you play a SK. Look, we killed the SK and now have one less nightkill to worry about. This game will likely go on for a longer time, and this will be beneficial to town. I'm glad we killed the SK because this is an environment where I think town can win if we focus on scumhunting; I think Munch was dangerous to both factions scum and mafia. That's why I'm not giving any credit to people on the wagon.
3. Munch's read on his roommate. That means very little to me, actually, but it's still a thing.
No it's not a thing, unless you want to make it one. And if you do, that's just one more reason for you and your scum partners to try to whip the town up into a frenzy over a lot of really poorly reasoned arguments, trying to get a good mislynch happening.
OK, so this is really interesting here.
First of all, I only mentioned it because it's something to keep in mind. Being roommates, his read does have a little more weight -- he knows you IRL, and that counts for something. Obviously it doesn't mean he had a perfect read, and it also doesn't mean he was honest about it. Maybe he just wanted to get in one last jab at his friend. But it was still worth mentioning.
Far more noteworthy is that you are now suggesting that I am scum. This is amazing. Several times throughout d2 you've stated that I was one of your very biggest town reads. But now I'm scum because I suspect you? I didn't even put down a vote! And in arguments above, you even admit that I have been scumhunting (e.g. saying that I assumed on d2 that you and Munch were scumbuddies, though that's actually false). So then where is the logic that I am scum? Do you still believe there are multiple scum teams? Based on the number of kills each night, it really doesn't look that way to me.
No, I don't really have a solid read on you. that's pure frustration hitting the page. This is a really crap argument, the type that my debate coach regularly eviscerated people for. If you're building a case on me, and you come across something which maybe could convince someone, but doesn't really convince you, it's a super cheap jab to throw it in as just one more reason people might want to vote for me. Either you believe it's a thing and you're willing to back it up, or you don't and it's a cheap jab. I know you've been scumhunting, and you should keep doing it.
To answer the other questions I think we ended one of the two factions with our day 2 lynch, so we should just have a regular mafia/town game now.
And the case was not at all based on you being scumbuddies with Munch. It was based on why you would think Munch was SK instead of Mafia. Because I just don't see that.
Our lauded hero Galz also had a hunch that Munch was SK. It looks like you thought me figuring out Munch was SK was an impossible thing for a townie to do, and I'm telling you I just figured it out. It wasn't just the power; here's a second part (maybe the part Galz also picked up on). It was the way that he was getting painted as defending Grujah by so many people. It felt like a mafia-supported smear-job. I was convinced that not only was he not defending Grujah, but he was not mafia at all. But he kept acting suspicious, and really squirmy defensively. Like he couldn't believe that he was being caught for all the wrong reasons. That felt like classic scum and slowly overtook my town read on him. I was thinking SK or another full scum-faction. But then his power sealed the deal, and I was certain it was SK.
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shraeye #2032 -- Well, why would he just call you scum out of the blue? Is he just a jerk IRL?
Because he's hilarious in real life. I died laughing when I read that.
I have not argued that it was scummy of you to defend Munch. I don't know where you are getting that, and continuing to whine about it is just building a strawman.
my apologies, a cursory glance shows that you are right. I abhor people building strawmen, and will quit implying that you made this argument promptly.
shraeye #2035 -- weren't you one of the ones who really railed against O on day 1 for being unhelpful? Or are you referencing other games where you've seen O play?
Yes, and yes. He was unhelpful day 1. I've seen him be helpful.
shraeye #2037 -- Uh, Dsell was not dictating. And again, I'm willing to share if enough people wish, but I don't believe it is beneficial to town.
if it's not beneficial to town, don't do it, just keep passing the wine and eventually we'll build a larger circle of trust.
theorel #2049 -- Hoping that theorel is town because he has some major analytical skills. Seems reasonable there.
Yeah, I'm a fan of theorel's posts so far today
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shraeye #80 --
Large post about CF. This feels like a LOT of IIoA (newbie guide: information instead of analysis). You quote many quotes and describe what CF is doing over and over again, but very little of it seems to be analysis on whether "this statement is scummy" or "that action is townie" or whatever. It feels very different from the cases you made on d2, where you had legitimate arguments and pulled out relevant quotes. Perhaps I am giving too much credit to your d2 cases.
Anyway, could you pull out the parts that contribute most to your "slight scum read"?
That's what I was doing by BOLDing certain points, and making a summary at the end to say which actions stood out for me, what makes him scummy, and what factors mitigate that scumminess to slight scum read.
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@eHalc analysis -- good stuff so far. Shraeye is looking bad.
On the Cuzz reveal, I know he's right, at least. Not sure how it helped the town, since it suds like while can confirm VTness, he can't confirm the other.
I was just about to ask what you and shraeye thought of each other, given Cuzz's claim. But it appears you are coming out immediately with a VT claim.
I am not sure, but it might be helpful if shraeye claims VT-or-not-VT. But again, I am not sure. Cuzz' clarification might influence optimal use of his intel as well. Do not actually claim yet -- this is just something the town should discuss.
I find the whole thing a bit silly, but both Munch's real powers and the travelling WIFOM are kind of crazy too. So... yeah.
What do others think of ash, shraeye and Cuzz?
shraeye, what do you think of ashersky, and Cuzz's claim?
These are great questions, and I really want people to be weighing in on ash, shraeye, and cuzz. I'm pretty wary of making a claim, until I get a stronger read on ashersky, I had a strong gut-read yesterday, but rereading his posts mitigated it. It is possible that we are both town. In this scenario, I think it is very dangerous for either of us to claim VT (I'm not sure if asher's statement is an unequivocal VT claim, but he seems to have slightly implied it at the very least). It would be a selfish attempt for self-preservation. The other person would be put under heavier suspicion, and I could envision mafia painting our past disagreements with eachother as "proof" that we aren't on the same team. After mislynching the non-claimer, they would try to NK the claimer and we've got two more town deaths on our hands.
I am at all points in time unwilling to make a self-preservational claim; we should continue to discuss to see if a claim could be the best way to benefit town.
As for my read on ashersky, he's the next on my reread list right now.
As for Cuzz, I think his statement is true. I'm not 100% sold that he obtained this information through investigation; there is at least some nonzero chance that Cuzz could be scum, and knows that me and ashersky are both town, and threw this statement down hoping that (A) it was true and (B) that it derailed most discussion to "is shraeye or ashersky the better lynch today". That's the conspiracy part of my brain thinking. The gut part of my brain says that this is a legitimate investigative disclosure. If it is, then it is possible that Cuzz has more investigations to claim since there have been two nights.
HEre's another thing to put up for discussion. If Cuzz has more investigative results, should he say them as well, now that he's revealed one?
In other news I've been posting my face off because I'm aware that I'll have little time this weekend, so I'm trying to closely follow what's happening now, and help guide what happens next. I'm going to start getting laundry done now, then pack. I'm on Vacation all weekend from Friday evening to Tuesday evening. I will have very little down time at all, but can possibly keep an eye on developments during Saturday morning and Monday day.
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Shraeye, I never meant to say that SK is a bad lynch, period, end of story. I said it's a bad lynch in certain situations, and it's nearly always worse than lynching mafia. I thought Munch was mafia, then I felt partially convinced that he was SK or town after his roleclaim, and at that point I wanted to look elsewhere because I thought we could find mafia even if he wasn't our lynch. Then some other arguments were brought out and yeah, he looked like probable mafia again. But really, a SK wagon means less than either a scum or town one.
I agree with cayvie about Young_Nick. He looked terrible yesterday after the Grujah wagon-analysis, but Munch was self-destructing. I still find him very suspicious.
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Also, Shraeye was craaaaaazy at the start of today, and it really did look like scum-wriggling to me, although I find that Shraeye is somewhat difficult for me to read because he has a somewhat different playstyle and I haven't seen his play or flip in any other games that I can recall. But still. Scummy.
Actually, Shraeye has been getting scummier and scummier in this game. On day 1, I thought he was a bad lynch and even likely town (based at least somewhat on playstyle, though), on day 2, he seemed like a scummier player and was making scummier arguments, and of course at the end of the day he felt certain about Munch being SK. Now I know he often hyperbolizes a bit to make "likely" things "certain" but it still struck me as odd. Then he opened day 3 with that crazy and oft-illogical attack on people. And the thing is that even when he posts these walls of text, even when there's some good logic in them, basically nothing he says gives me an explicitly townie vibe.
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Cuzz' claim may have been ill-timed but it is interesting in that it seems unlikely from a mafia perspective. eHal's analysis seems very accurate and we shouldn't give cuzz obvtown status for it, but it seems needlessly risky as scum. Can't rule it out though. As for the specific claim, I think we should look more into it. It actually makes me more inclined to lynch one of Shraeye or Ashersky (and I'm leaning towards Shraeye at this point) in order to break this puzzle open. If we manage to lynch scum, we have two near confirmed townies between cuzz and the one we didn't lynch.
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Ducking in quickly.
Also, Shraeye was craaaaaazy at the start of today, and it really did look like scum-wriggling to me, although I find that Shraeye is somewhat difficult for me to read because he has a somewhat different playstyle and I haven't seen his play or flip in any other games that I can recall. But still. Scummy.
Actually, Shraeye has been getting scummier and scummier in this game. On day 1, I thought he was a bad lynch and even likely town (based at least somewhat on playstyle, though), on day 2, he seemed like a scummier player and was making scummier arguments, and of course at the end of the day he felt certain about Munch being SK. Now I know he often hyperbolizes a bit to make "likely" things "certain" but it still struck me as odd. Then he opened day 3 with that crazy and oft-illogical attack on people. And the thing is that even when he posts these walls of text, even when there's some good logic in them, basically nothing he says gives me an explicitly townie vibe.
Shraeye has a little wiggle room. When he went on his tirade, a bunch of votes had already piled on him. He claims that he doesn't care about having votes and that he was arguing against bad logic, but I doubt anyone could be so stoic. And I think there was quite a bit of good logic against him. But he gets a slight pass on craziness because he was in a position worthy of craze.
What about day 2 made you think shraeye was scummy? The cases he wrote made him seem townier to me. It was just the behaviour at the end that looked out of place to me.
Cuzz' claim may have been ill-timed but it is interesting in that it seems unlikely from a mafia perspective. eHal's analysis seems very accurate and we shouldn't give cuzz obvtown status for it, but it seems needlessly risky as scum. Can't rule it out though. As for the specific claim, I think we should look more into it. It actually makes me more inclined to lynch one of Shraeye or Ashersky (and I'm leaning towards Shraeye at this point) in order to break this puzzle open. If we manage to lynch scum, we have two near confirmed townies between cuzz and the one we didn't lynch.
No, even if we lynched scum in the two, it doesn't clear Cuzz or the remaining player in the pair. wlog, say we lynch ashersky and he is scum. Now Cuzz's claim is that shraeye specifically is VT. At this point, if shraeye is NOT a VT, he can call out Cuzz as liar. And that would be good for town. Or it could be an epic super bus to give shraeye obvtown status. But leave that aside.
If shraeye does not deny being a VT, then we have a unidirectional link -- Cuzz claims that shraeye is VT. If shraeye dies and flips VT, we still can't be sure that Cuzz is town. He could be risk-taking scum or maybe scum making use of rolecop powers.
If Cuzz dies and flips town then we can trust his info, which is good for town. If Cuzz flips scum then we have no idea about shraeye again.
The possibility I am considering is for shraeye to claim VT or not VT. Then we lynch Cuzz. If Cuzz is town, then we can trust his info. From there, if shraeye claimed not-VT, then ash becomes fully cleared (assuming his earlier statement was in fact a VT claim). But if shraeye claimed VT then we're nowhere useful. OTOH, if Cuzz is scum, then the cherry on top of the scum lynch would be removing the wine he gave us with his info.
The main problem with all this is that it could potentially leave a town PR exposed. Or, it could confirm VTs for scum, allowing them to focus their attention on those more likely to be PRs. Moreover, it would be an info lynch that neuters whatever info we would otherwise have on the wagon.
Of course, we can still derive SOME info if we lynched either ashersky or shraeye. But it is not at all clear cut, and it's only very specific situations that will end up clearing anyone.
The other thing is that Cuzz's claim was:
"Anyway, I can tell you guys with some certainty that one of shraeye and ashersky is a VT."
I mean, does that mean he is completely certain, or only partially certain? If Cuzz is on the level and is some weak investigative role, maybe he has a modifier like Eevee's semi-naive.
After these considerations, I think the best move is to ignore Cuzz's info for now and treat the lynch as normal. We should not shy away from lynching Cuzz, ashersky or shraeye just because of the vague claim. If one of them do get lynched, then we can try to use the claim to analyse the remaining players based on the flip. But again, we have to be careful with this! The claim is so vague that there are very few situations where it actually clears anyone completely.
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Will respond to other posts later. Re-attempting to absent myself to work on things IRL.
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eHalc, you know I already made that point about Cuzz's claim. yuma's willingness to believe it and insistence on making sure the rest of us don't forget it (2072) is a bit suspicious to me also.
You say that you have no reason to believe Cuzz's claim, while I say that I have no reason to not believe it or at least consider it.
And yes I am trying to remind you about it, especially in light of both you and sparky's post/vote regarding shraeye... neither of you even alluded to Cuzz's reveal before casting suspicion/voting (only sparky voted, but I did find it odd that the two you said you were willing to vote for were the very two that Cuzz revealed about.
Furthermore, I do not believe that either of those 2 are the best lynch candidates for today (at least at this juncture).
1. My own personal read on scum is highest on Young Nick. I am going to remind everyone of what I consider to be the scummiest post all game when Grujah was at 9 votes Day 1.
yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
To me this eclipses any behavior from etiher shraeye or ashersky.
2. I have had a town read on shraeye for most of the game and still do. Ashersky is a little bit more of a different story, however. Toward the end of day 2 he posted his odd case about Galz and voted. I saw this as potentially scummy behavior attempting to deflect attention from a scumpartner in TheMunch (if themunch had turned up mafia, I would be all over ashersky)... But theMunch ended up being SK, so it could not have been a deflection away from a scummate. I still consider his case against Galz odd, but I view him as less scummy that before. And even when I considered him scummy late day 2 I still preferred a Young Nick lynch over him; that has not changed.
3. I think that there is a possibility in the future to have the Cuzz's case confirmed and verified on a later day. For that reason, either shraeye (if my read on him changes) or ashersky could be potential lynch candidates in the future if Cuzz's case is not or cannot be verified. As such, lynching ashersky or shraeye w/o even attempting or considering methods to verify Cuzz's claim is not the best play.
4. As for jot, his unwillingness to consider Cuzz's case and allow time for verification of it adds to the suspicion (it also adds a bit of suspicion toward sparky, I would like to hear Insomniac's thoughts regarding shraeye and Cuzz's claim as he voted shraeye and has not yet posted after Cuzz's reveal) I have of him already--if you remember I consider him to be the top suspect for Grujah bussing. However, I still find Young Nick's interactions still more suspicious, I am already voting for him and would prefer his lynch.
I personally question jot's motivations in this. If you remember I--and others--have voiced suspicion of him. He is still my number one scum candidate for bussing Grujah. I have expressed suspicion toward him and wonder if his insistence on voting for either shraeye or ashersky is an attempt to deflect suspicion away from himself (a potential lynch candidate) toward a greater number of other candidates (in shray and ash).
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No need to respond to this right away, eHal, but I think lynching cuzz is a baaad bad idea. He has some sort of ability and it could be helpful in the future. It could even be an investigative power role! I'd rather confirm things with the Wine or just accept it is true until down the road. If we lynch Ashersky/Shraeye then we will likely have a good idea about the other one. I think it's a good idea to accept cuzz' claim until later in the game (perhaps using the wine to confirm/deny), when it should be more verifiable. There are no guarantees here, but I doubt a mafia cuzz would say that about two townies. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Besides all this, if Cuzz is town and has some sort of investigative ability, he may be a target for the mafia. Then we'd be able to know whether we can trust him. If he's kept alive, hopefully he can give us more such results that are similarly verifiable.
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I feel like that last post didn't track very well. Sorry. Basically, I think it's safer to proceed as though cuzz' claim is true. It should be easyish to verify the claim at some point in the game, and it's much less risky than lynching a possible PR now.
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I have no reason to trust or distrust Cuzz's claim. I do not have a reason to believe that there isn't scum between the pair and as previously mentioned I believe it to be shraeye.
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What about day 2 made you think shraeye was scummy? The cases he wrote made him seem townier to me. It was just the behaviour at the end that looked out of place to me.
I should reread (which, honestly, may or may not happen) to get specifics, but some of the things off the top of my head were his insistence that Munch was not defending Grujah and the amount of buddying that he did with Munch (as shown by Galz). However, this is less suspicious because of the fact that Munch was SK and not mafia.
I could STILL see mafia Shraeye "buddying up" to and defending a presumed townie hardcore in order to get town cred after the lynch. Especially if he revealed the roommate "I can read him better than you guys" thing. Of course, if he happens to choose the one presumed townie who's actually the SK, it gets him no credit either way.
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@yuma: You find me scummy. You have all game. I have admitted I was wrong about Grujah. I have said before and will repeat now that I merely wanted to prod you for more information about why specifically you were voting for him other than his lurking.
Your reasoning made sense. I understood it. That was that. I was not trying to "derail" the Grujah lynch, but rather find out your motives so it wasn't merely a lynch because he was lurking.
As for cayvie's table on me. Yes, it is true, I have not had that much interaction with individuals. I will remind you that a large proportion of my d1 posts were hoping for a summary ala timchen's in MVII.
As for current ideas on the table: I agree with Dsell. Lynching Cuzz just seems like a bad idea.
Where is watno?
Shraeye is going for the crazy-defense, but I don't really see it. Many other people have laid out good cases against him and I don't think his defense has been quite enough. Vote: Shraeye.
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Shraeye is going for the crazy-defense, but I don't really see it. Many other people have laid out good cases against him and I don't think his defense has been quite enough. Vote: Shraeye.
I am going to ask you the same question that I keep asking everyone who votes shraeye w/o addressing the Cuzz reveal.
What do you think of it?
Why do you not even mention it?
Do you think that his claim can be validated at some later point in the game? and if you think it can do you still want to lynch shraeye before validating it?
Seriously people... if you want to vote shraeye, fine, but let show that you saw Cuzz's reveal and provide your thoughts about it before or when you vote... It has the potential to be a pretty big deal.
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I do not put much stock in it right now. cuzz could be doing this as scum or as town.
If he formally claims, I will address it at that time. Until then, it's pretty meh.
It hasn't affected my read. Especially with ashersky providing so little, it's hard to compare the two.
So it still stands.
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A few further thoughts on Cuzz's claim:
It is definitely verifiable later in the game, so there's no requirement we act on the information immediately. But a few scenarios if this is acted on today...
If Shraeye is lynched and flips scum, and Cuzz somehow survives the night, I think more info from Cuzz on his info on D4 would help. The risky scum play scenario would still exist, but by having Cuzz provide more info after another night makes it harder for him to keep lying if he is, and is easily confirmed if he is not.
If you all lynch me, whether Cuzz lives or not, you'll want to really keep looking at Shraeye.
If you lynch neither, again I think Cuzz's info on future days as long as he lives should increasingly be revealed, as we'll either catch him in a lie or he'll help town before getting killed.
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CF #99 -- there is an alternative possibility. Scum that lynched Munch could have thought they were lynching someone from an opposing scum team.
Dsell #113 -- I agree that lynching Cuzz does not look like the best thing to do at this time. It's better to lynch Mafia and Cuzz has not been as scummy as others. But the proposition was just to illustrate the weirdness of handling this claim. More thoughts on it might be appreciated, though my conclusion was that we should probably ignore it for now.
yuma #118 -- what do you think of the Cuzz/shraeye/ashersky situation? I believe you said that you find the Young_Nick case more compelling, and his d1 comment the scummiest thing in the game so far. Can you elaborate on your thoughts of the three though?
ashersky #120 -- This is difficult. It is not verifiable unless multiples of them die. If it is a scum gambit, that requires multiple lynches. We have had a great start, but we probably can't afford that many lynches just to verify one claim.
Interesting thought: Cuzz, if your power is a consistent investigation (e.g. "target two players; you will be told if at least one of them is VT") then perhaps there is a way you can apply PoE by making the next investigation include a previous target.
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yuma #118 -- what do you think of the Cuzz/shraeye/ashersky situation? I believe you said that you find the Young_Nick case more compelling, and his d1 comment the scummiest thing in the game so far. Can you elaborate on your thoughts of the three though?
Do you mean more than what I have already stated?
Furthermore, I do not believe that either of those 2 are the best lynch candidates for today (at least at this juncture).
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2. I have had a town read on shraeye for most of the game and still do. Ashersky is a little bit more of a different story, however. Toward the end of day 2 he posted his odd case about Galz and voted. I saw this as potentially scummy behavior attempting to deflect attention from a scumpartner in TheMunch (if themunch had turned up mafia, I would be all over ashersky)... But theMunch ended up being SK, so it could not have been a deflection away from a scummate. I still consider his case against Galz odd, but I view him as less scummy that before. And even when I considered him scummy late day 2 I still preferred a Young Nick lynch over him; that has not changed.
3. I think that there is a possibility in the future to have the Cuzz's case confirmed and verified on a later day. For that reason, either shraeye (if my read on him changes) or ashersky could be potential lynch candidates in the future if Cuzz's case is not or cannot be verified. As such, lynching ashersky or shraeye w/o even attempting or considering methods to verify Cuzz's claim is not the best play.
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Further to eHalc's interesting thought, if he's right about the power, and if there's no limitation on who can be targeted, target dead scum and one live person to get easy confirmation.
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yuma #118 -- what do you think of the Cuzz/shraeye/ashersky situation? I believe you said that you find the Young_Nick case more compelling, and his d1 comment the scummiest thing in the game so far. Can you elaborate on your thoughts of the three though?
Do you mean more than what I have already stated?
Furthermore, I do not believe that either of those 2 are the best lynch candidates for today (at least at this juncture).
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2. I have had a town read on shraeye for most of the game and still do. Ashersky is a little bit more of a different story, however. Toward the end of day 2 he posted his odd case about Galz and voted. I saw this as potentially scummy behavior attempting to deflect attention from a scumpartner in TheMunch (if themunch had turned up mafia, I would be all over ashersky)... But theMunch ended up being SK, so it could not have been a deflection away from a scummate. I still consider his case against Galz odd, but I view him as less scummy that before. And even when I considered him scummy late day 2 I still preferred a Young Nick lynch over him; that has not changed.
3. I think that there is a possibility in the future to have the Cuzz's case confirmed and verified on a later day. For that reason, either shraeye (if my read on him changes) or ashersky could be potential lynch candidates in the future if Cuzz's case is not or cannot be verified. As such, lynching ashersky or shraeye w/o even attempting or considering methods to verify Cuzz's claim is not the best play.
Yeah, if you could elaborate that would be nice. But if you've said all you have to say, OK.
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shraeye #130 --
The reason I brought up Galz supporting the "Munch defended Grujah" argument:
1. Galz is confirmed townie. This DOES lend more credence to his arguments, because we know he wasn't trying to mislead town.
2. Galz is a smart guy, and you yourself started d3 by praising him (mostly as a means of putting down others, lamenting his death and saying that nobody made sense but Galzria).
No, numbers don't make an argument correct. But you yelling at the town doesn't make you correct either. I previously stated that you defending Munch doesn't make you scummy. This is because Munch flipped SK. However, I believe the defense itself is a bit scummy. I have mentioned this before, but I will lay it out again, and try to make it clear.
Was Munch defending his scumbuddy Grujah?
The answer is, in fact, that he was not. Munch was SK and therefore not Grujah's scumbuddy.
Did Munch intend to defend Grujah?
Unclear. It is possible that his comment was just an innocent comment. It is possible that he just wanted to disassociate himself from a likely town lynch (likely in that d1 lynches are usually town) and avoid further scrutiny on d2.
Did Munch end up defending Grujah?
The answer here is an unequivocal yes. It baffles me how anyone (only shraeye at this point?) could argue otherwise. But I will try to explain concisely why his comment was a defense. I will again quote Munch's post:
Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah. First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking. That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on). My vote will stay where it is.
I interpret this to be slightly on the positive side of neutral. But for the sake of argument, I will consider it neutral anyway. Supporting evidence:
Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.
The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.
I agree with this. Although my read on Grujah isnt town, its nothing.
OK, so Munch states that he has a neutral read on Grujah. Is this a defense? It depends on your definition of "defense". I consider a defense to be any action intended to lessen pressure on another player. This is the same reason why I would consider it defensive to suggest no lynch or try to start a different wagon when the wagon on one player starts picking up speed.
Expressing a neutral read on a player that others consider scummy is an action that could lessen pressure on another player.
If everyone thinks Bob is scummy and I say I think he is neutral, I am skewing public opinion towards the positive. It is an indirect defense of Bob. "I don't believe he is as scummy as others are making him out to be." "I don't believe the actions he took are scummy." These are defenses.
"But it definitely wasn't intended to help a scumbuddy so it doesn't matter!"
But I think it kind of does.
The only reason we know that it wasn't scumbuddy defense is because Munch has flipped. But before that point, we did not know Munch's alignment. As far as most of us knew, Munch could have been Mafia. And that subtle defense makes a lot of sense as mafia play. It turned out to be faulty, but it was logical based on our limited information.
The most plausible reason I can see for player to NOT acknowledge Munch's words as seemingly defensive is if that player had more info than the rest of us, if he KNEW FOR A FACT that Munch was not defending a scumbuddy. And that is only possible if the player knew for sure that Munch was not Mafia. And that only really makes sense if that player IS Mafia.
Are there any other possibilities? There actually are. The main one is, maybe that player had modconfirmed info through some other source, e.g. investigative power. Sorry to out you to scum if this is the case, shraeye. I think that possibility is really unlikely though.
And I think that is a thorough explanation of all the defense stuff... blah.
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This is how I felt about him day 1:
Quote from: yuma on September 25, 2012, 09:40:10 am
shraeye (2) - Town read on shraeye. Partly because the two people voting him I have moderately scum reads on. The thing about shraeye is that he is willing and ready to pick and stick with fights and arguments. He has argued with Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, Insomniac, yuma, O, Glooble, Watno, Cuzz, cayvie, ftl, eevee and I am sure more that I missed. He is constantly sticking his neck out. If he is scum, he will slip (some suggested that he already has) eventually if he continues to post this much, and if he is town I expect him to continue this behavior into subsequent days. A failure for him to do so, will read scum.
I still believe this to be true and true to form he has continued this behavior in subsequent days. He hasn't changed. Please understand that I do not consider him confirmed town. I simply do not have a scum read on him.
I do find him a bit suspicious for not being on the Grujah wagon in the same way I consider nearly everyone else to be suspicious--remember that I also consider people on the wagon to be suspicious as well. shraeye was a end of day morgrim voter, so there is that...
Currently:
I do not agree with the premise of sheeping TheMunch's read on him. TheMunch has a completely different wincon then we (town) do and his death speech has no bearing on my thoughts one way or another. It annoys me that the shraeye wagon was started off on this premise. It appears that others latched on the idea of sheeping and then went back and hand picked things that shraeye said that could appear to be scummy.
Furthermore, people appear to be painting him as flailing about with suspicion. I think that like eHal shraeye responds to people's posts. That isn't my playstyle and it isn't a lot of people's playstyles... I personally pick and choose what to respond to, my time constrains and my personality prevent me from doing so. But both of you tend to respond to a lot more, even when posts are specifically direct toward you. As such, he has had a lot more posts, especially when many of those posts were regarding him.
This is still a ~20 player game. As such, there are a lot people writing posts, and a lot of posts that he wants to respond to. Early today there were many posts with suspicion leveled against shraeye. He went through them and responded one by one and for some reason that is suspicious? Perhaps he should not respond to accusations? That I would find suspicious.
To add more to this: I have personally found both sparky and Young Nick's votes for shraeye to be suspicious. Sparky's argument is nonsensical and Young Nick once again posted and voted w/o providing any content as to what his real thoughts are.
As for ashersky, I really don't have much more to say about him. He is an ok candidate for a lynch. But I think we can do better. As I mentioned before TheMunch not being scum made him less suspicious.
I fail--and if I am missing something here guys, clue me into it--to understand why some people think that either shraeye or ashersky must be scum. I don't see how that logic works and I think that this approach is detrimental to scum hunting because if both are town and we lynch them two days in a row it gives scum a free pass two days in a row and town ends up with two dead townies. Not good!
As for the Cuzz situation. His reveal was not timely and could very well be a mafia ploy, but I doubt it. But I think we need to perform our due diligence regarding it. And that requires some work and some time. As such lynching shraeye or ashersky while 1. due diligence has not been performed and 2. while there are other great, viable lynch options out there doesn't make any sense to me.
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^ that should be #103, not #130.
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^ that should be #103, not #130.
And this should apply to my post at the top of the page, not yuma's post.
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Continuing on shraeye #103...
True, that. But if you look below DSell is arguing that SK isn't a good lynch because we can use him for town, and that we should just leave him for nighttime when mafia because "If he's SK mafia will kill him." But if we refuse to lynch him during the day because he's a useful SK, and he doesn't die at night ever, that is the case where we're having to lynch an SK later close to the endgame, which is much more dangerous for town, as I believe mafia won another game where a late lynch went to the SK.
You decided he was definitely SK by assuming his power claims were true. If his claims were true, they were only good for town and bad for scum (aside from the NK, but an SK NK is not so much worse than a vig NK). So why not leave him be? Mafia would have to deal with him, and his claimed BP ability was not constant. If he was what he claimed, whether townie or SK, Mafia WOULD want to kill him. He would NOT be "unlynchable" just because we gave him a pass for a day.
As for the game you are referencing, you are interpreting it wrong. Town could have won if they had not lynched the SK. That was the takeaway. Lynching the SK meant they did NOT lynch Mafia, which is why they lost. Likewise, on d2, we would have been better off lynching Mafia than SK. That was the crux of Dsell's argument.
I didn't FoS Dsell because I thought he was Munch's buddy, that wasn't my reason. It was for wanting to not lynch a found SK, which I still think was a good lynch. HIS BULLETPROOF ABILITY WAS NOT FICTICIOUS; READ HIS ROLEPOST.
Dsell's point at that time was that, if Munch was an SK, then there were better lynches to make. As many have noted, the SK lynch is not so informative. Personally, I favoured the Munch lynch because I thought he was just BSing and was Mafia. But if I had thought he was SK, I would also have advocated giving Munch a reprieve and trying to find Mafia elsewhere.
Oops on Munch's true powers. But that doesn't really matter.
This is what I'm saying. If people bought Dsell's argument that we should not lynch SK, use his nightkills for town, then in my eyes he's becoming unlynchable. Somebody that the group is unwilling to lynch.
There is a huge difference between "let's not lynch him for now" and "LET'S NEVER LYNCH HIM EVER".
I seriously doubt that Munch would have also let us direct his night powers towards town. His kill, maybe, because we can see that information. But you bet he was gunning for scum to get night-protection. That's how you play a SK. Look, we killed the SK and now have one less nightkill to worry about. This game will likely go on for a longer time, and this will be beneficial to town. I'm glad we killed the SK because this is an environment where I think town can win if we focus on scumhunting; I think Munch was dangerous to both factions scum and mafia. That's why I'm not giving any credit to people on the wagon.
Well sure. But that's just more reason why scum would try to kill Munch. And Munch isn't going to perfectly hit townies every time. Additionally, there would have been easy ways to test his "I power up townies" claim.
No, I don't really have a solid read on you. that's pure frustration hitting the page. This is a really crap argument, the type that my debate coach regularly eviscerated people for. If you're building a case on me, and you come across something which maybe could convince someone, but doesn't really convince you, it's a super cheap jab to throw it in as just one more reason people might want to vote for me. Either you believe it's a thing and you're willing to back it up, or you don't and it's a cheap jab. I know you've been scumhunting, and you should keep doing it.
To answer the other questions I think we ended one of the two factions with our day 2 lynch, so we should just have a regular mafia/town game now.
Maybe I am misremembering, but I'm fairly certain you said I was a huge town read for you on d2. So "don't really have a solid read" is a sizeable step down, and you've given no reason for it. Heh. I can go look for the quote, if you wish.
Anyway, I did not mention it because I thought it could convince others. It was not meant as a cheap jab. I mentioned it because I thought it was worth noting.
And this isn't a debate, by the way. If it were, I'm sure your coach would also criticize the numerous ad homs that pepper your posts.
Our lauded hero Galz also had a hunch that Munch was SK. It looks like you thought me figuring out Munch was SK was an impossible thing for a townie to do, and I'm telling you I just figured it out. It wasn't just the power; here's a second part (maybe the part Galz also picked up on). It was the way that he was getting painted as defending Grujah by so many people. It felt like a mafia-supported smear-job. I was convinced that not only was he not defending Grujah, but he was not mafia at all. But he kept acting suspicious, and really squirmy defensively. Like he couldn't believe that he was being caught for all the wrong reasons. That felt like classic scum and slowly overtook my town read on him. I was thinking SK or another full scum-faction. But then his power sealed the deal, and I was certain it was SK.
Quote please? I remember Galz mentioning the possibility. But that's a far cry from the 100% certainty you expressed.
And now I have to go. Will try to respond more tonight.
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I find ehalycon's slogging through analysis of all actions of a 25-player game to be wishful thinking. I also think expressing neutral reads on people in a 25 player game is not indicative of very much.
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Ok, so as for clarification, I now know which out of ashersky and shraeye the information I received applies to.
So to reiterate: I can confirm one of them as town, and have absolutely no information on the other. The other could be scum, VT or paranoid gun owner for all I know.
But maybe I'll leave off the key detail for now, until I get more feedback. Let me know if you think I should do this yet or wait.
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Absolutely tell us. Why is this even a question.
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But why the change? Are you like a day-investigator?
Or maybe the vague fake investigative crumb wasn't working well enough to get heat off your partner so you changed the plan...
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Ok, so as for clarification, I now know which out of ashersky and shraeye the information I received applies to.
So to reiterate: I can confirm one of them as town, and have absolutely no information on the other. The other could be scum, VT or paranoid gun owner for all I know.
But maybe I'll leave off the key detail for now, until I get more feedback. Let me know if you think I should do this yet or wait.
What the heck. How does your claim before even make sense? "One of the two of these people is VT" is a bizarre thing to claim when they're not even both on the chopping block.
Unless you're saying you now know? I mean, do what is best I guess, and don't let us lynch a VT.
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Ok, so as for clarification, I now know which out of ashersky and shraeye the information I received applies to.
So to reiterate: I can confirm one of them as town, and have absolutely no information on the other. The other could be scum, VT or paranoid gun owner for all I know.
But maybe I'll leave off the key detail for now, until I get more feedback. Let me know if you think I should do this yet or wait.
Vote: Cuzz
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I see ZERO reason cuzz would break up this result as town.
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At this point, you probably should reveal who the townie is and steer this town in the right direction, considering that shraeye is the leading wagon and ashersky's the second, and you know that one of them's a guaranteed bad lynch. Though I guess you could let us keep arguing and out the VT if he gets to like L-(something), but that seems a little weird. How on earth would it be pro-town to keep us in the dark?
It would have been good to keep the fact that you have an investigation secret, but you've already revealed - enough to help scum but not enough to help town!
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Vote: Cuzz the more I think about it the more scummy that all sounds
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i'm mental
So I can say with about 85% certainty that Axxle is town, pegging me and Cuzz for questionable town play. And I believe both of us do. This is juicy information to tell us that DEFINITELY Player X out of 2 is of a certain alignment and not telling us which one. VOTE: Cuzz in order to prod for additional info. Plus maybe my shraeye argument is jumping the gun a bit; I make too many assumptions. I just want to find scum alright?
i may or may not be sleep-deprived. it's 4am right now, I spend every night talking...
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Ugh, I apologize for the way this is going down. I realized that my initial reveal was a bit hasty so I just wanted to get some input before saying what else I know. But it's not helpful for anyone if you guys don't even believe me...
Ashersky is town. In his 2087 he basically confirms that my info is about him. Importantly, though, I knew this before he made that post.
This is all I got. I know nothing about shraeye's alignment.
I know it looks weird the way this info has come out, but just understand that I'm trying not to give scum any more info than they already have about the manner in which I obtained this info.
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I don't think we should put any credence in Munch's last words of shraeye being scum. He definitely had no interest in helping town after he was as good as dead. I believe him pulling a jape on his Rl friend is much more likely than the he actually knew it AND decided to tell us. I definitely think people voting him just for this are making things to easy.
@cayvie I did vote Grujah in #1376. Also can you frther explain how your tallying system works. If i say, for example, "I disagree with X and agree with Y that Z is scum" is that negative to X and Z, and positive to Y?
I really don't like theorel's posts today:
#2049 is excuses for not posting, a bit of stating the obvious, and an announcement that he will look at the people who didnt vote for Grujah but did vote for Munch, because he thinks its more likely to find scum in there. Also: "I'm not saying that the people who I'm analyzing are automatically suspicious, but that their behavior lends some suspicion" seems kinda contradictory and empty.
Then in #2059 he notices there are only 3 people in this group of people and decides taht because the group is so small, it's not as likely theres scum in there. This seems really weird to me. If you take a group big enough, obviously its nearly certain theres scum in there. If 3 people did something you think suspicious (or lending suspicion), it just doesnt make sense to think that it is not scummy because they are just three, especially if you think one of them is town, one scum, and don't have a rtead on the third because of other things.
I would vote theorel based on this, but I really find it hard to believe Cuzz's claim: I'll summarize how it went down:
shraeye is at 5 votes (including double by axxle) + eHalc who believes he's scum
Anyway, I can tell you guys with some certainty that one of shraeye and ashersky is a VT.
Cuzz verifies that he means "at least one"
Based on the conversation so far, I actually would be able to refine/update the information at this time, but it might be best to hold off on that for now.
Ok, so as for clarification, I now know which out of ashersky and shraeye the information I received applies to.
So to reiterate: I can confirm one of them as town, and have absolutely no information on the other. The other could be scum, VT or paranoid gun owner for all I know.
But maybe I'll leave off the key detail for now, until I get more feedback. Let me know if you think I should do this yet or wait.
Ashersky is town. In his 2087 he basically confirms that my info is about him. Importantly, though, I knew this before he made that post.
This is all I got. I know nothing about shraeye's alignment.
Parts I find strange: Why does Cuzz know with some certainty? Is there anything else hindering your certainty except for the information you got from the mod is false?
How can the conversation enlighten you to clarify your information?
I can't imagine any role that does this, especially I don't see one on the list Robz gave us.
I think it's well possible that Cuzz is a rolecop and knew that his information was true (because he investigated ashersky), however he wanted to derail the votes on shraeye.
vote Cuzz, because I dont think this claim can be true.
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@eHalc analysis -- good stuff so far. Shraeye is looking bad.
On the Cuzz reveal, I know he's right, at least. Not sure how it helped the town, since it suds like while can confirm VTness, he can't confirm the other.
For connivence sake here is the quote form ashersky that Cuzz mentions
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i'm mental
So I can say with about 85% certainty that Axxle is town, pegging me and Cuzz for questionable town play. And I believe both of us do. This is juicy information to tell us that DEFINITELY Player X out of 2 is of a certain alignment and not telling us which one. VOTE: Cuzz in order to prod for additional info. Plus maybe my shraeye argument is jumping the gun a bit; I make too many assumptions. I just want to find scum alright?
i may or may not be sleep-deprived. it's 4am right now, I spend every night talking...
sparky... don't post at night anymore... I never understand your late night rants and it just makes you look really scummy to me
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I fail--and if I am missing something here guys, clue me into it--to understand why some people think that either shraeye or ashersky must be scum. I don't see how that logic works and I think that this approach is detrimental to scum hunting because if both are town and we lynch them two days in a row it gives scum a free pass two days in a row and town ends up with two dead townies. Not good!
As for the Cuzz situation. His reveal was not timely and could very well be a mafia ploy, but I doubt it. But I think we need to perform our due diligence regarding it. And that requires some work and some time. As such lynching shraeye or ashersky while 1. due diligence has not been performed and 2. while there are other great, viable lynch options out there doesn't make any sense to me.
I think the general idea was that because people saw me and ashersky arguing yesterday, and because their reads on both of us are pretty scummy, that if they believe Cuzz, that makes EXACTLY one of us town. Cuzz has since clarified that ashersky is most definitely town, which I'm sure is going to make people switch back to me because of the 1-town 1-scum assumption. I agree that it's a terrible premise.
I think there are other great lynches out there, that deserve attention. As you (or was it someone else, my mind gets cluttered) pointed out sparky and youngNick have both voted oddly for me. I'm not sure about sparky, I hadn't really thought about him yet. It's so hard with this many peopel to keep them all in my mind. I can't even remember who sparky subbed in for right now. YoungNick also has a history of suspicion. Though I was one of the only peopel i remember voting for him yesterday, I built a case up on him, and one that I thought was pretty good. I'm considering voting for him, but I need to revisit his posts first.
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True, that. But if you look below DSell is arguing that SK isn't a good lynch because we can use him for town, and that we should just leave him for nighttime when mafia because "If he's SK mafia will kill him." But if we refuse to lynch him during the day because he's a useful SK, and he doesn't die at night ever, that is the case where we're having to lynch an SK later close to the endgame, which is much more dangerous for town, as I believe mafia won another game where a late lynch went to the SK.
You decided he was definitely SK by assuming his power claims were true. If his claims were true, they were only good for town and bad for scum (aside from the NK, but an SK NK is not so much worse than a vig NK). So why not leave him be? Mafia would have to deal with him, and his claimed BP ability was not constant. If he was what he claimed, whether townie or SK, Mafia WOULD want to kill him. He would NOT be "unlynchable" just because we gave him a pass for a day.
As for the game you are referencing, you are interpreting it wrong. Town could have won if they had not lynched the SK. That was the takeaway. Lynching the SK meant they did NOT lynch Mafia, which is why they lost. Likewise, on d2, we would have been better off lynching Mafia than SK. That was the crux of Dsell's argument.
It's becoming increasingly clear that I'm not sure how to handle SKs in the game. I'm not sure what "claimed BP was not constant" even means. What is BP? I'm also confused at losing because you didn't lynch mafia. I don't know how many players there were in that game, but if there were mafia/SK/town^2 for example, doesn't town also lose if they lynch mafia? Maybe another day would have been better to lynch an SK on, but I was sure I had found scum, and moreover, was sure I found a way to cut our night deaths in half. That certainly sounded like a good lynch to me.
This is what I'm saying. If people bought Dsell's argument that we should not lynch SK, use his nightkills for town, then in my eyes he's becoming unlynchable. Somebody that the group is unwilling to lynch.
There is a huge difference between "let's not lynch him for now" and "LET'S NEVER LYNCH HIM EVER".
True, but it wasn't clear to me when we would know that his "usefulness" for town would end. "later" felt like to vague of a timeline for scumlynching. This could also be a byproduct of my extreme hyperbole, where I see an argument for not lynching him now, don't understand when that argument WOULDN'T apply, so assume it's an argument for not lynching forever.
Additionally, there would have been easy ways to test his "I power up townies" claim.
I can't think of a safe one that doesn't out PRs. (or semi-weak PRs, as it were)
No, I don't really have a solid read on you. that's pure frustration hitting the page. This is a really crap argument, the type that my debate coach regularly eviscerated people for. If you're building a case on me, and you come across something which maybe could convince someone, but doesn't really convince you, it's a super cheap jab to throw it in as just one more reason people might want to vote for me. Either you believe it's a thing and you're willing to back it up, or you don't and it's a cheap jab. I know you've been scumhunting, and you should keep doing it.
To answer the other questions I think we ended one of the two factions with our day 2 lynch, so we should just have a regular mafia/town game now.
Maybe I am misremembering, but I'm fairly certain you said I was a huge town read for you on d2. So "don't really have a solid read" is a sizeable step down, and you've given no reason for it. Heh. I can go look for the quote, if you wish.
I like to reset my reads each day, I'll be reading through your older stuff (and some other people's that I've mentioned) as soon as I can grab a few free hours. Chances are I'll end up with a town read again. Already your day3 actions are supporting a town read. I'm pretty sure I have an idea what your description can be from the way Dsell described it. As I mentioned offhand before, mine is very descriptive and it's very patent what my role is based of the description. If yours is as blunt as mine is, then I'm pretty sure we have the same role.
Our lauded hero Galz also had a hunch that Munch was SK. It looks like you thought me figuring out Munch was SK was an impossible thing for a townie to do, and I'm telling you I just figured it out. It wasn't just the power; here's a second part (maybe the part Galz also picked up on). It was the way that he was getting painted as defending Grujah by so many people. It felt like a mafia-supported smear-job. I was convinced that not only was he not defending Grujah, but he was not mafia at all. But he kept acting suspicious, and really squirmy defensively. Like he couldn't believe that he was being caught for all the wrong reasons. That felt like classic scum and slowly overtook my town read on him. I was thinking SK or another full scum-faction. But then his power sealed the deal, and I was certain it was SK.
Quote please? I remember Galz mentioning the possibility. But that's a far cry from the 100% certainty you expressed.
In response to my post where I figure out Munch is SK and vote:
L-2. An Axxle vote hammers.
@Shraeye
I've turned that over in my head the last three irl days as a possibility given his actions this game. It's quite certainly possible with his role-claim.
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I don't think we should put any credence in Munch's last words of shraeye being scum. He definitely had no interest in helping town after he was as good as dead. I believe him pulling a jape on his Rl friend is much more likely than the he actually knew it AND decided to tell us. I definitely think people voting him just for this are making things to easy.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on people treating Munch's signoff like a legitimate reason that I'm suspicious. If you're dying to paint me as a suspicious character, there are much better ways to do it.
I really don't like theorel's posts today:
#2049 an announcement that he will look at the people who didnt vote for Grujah but did vote for Munch, because he thinks its more likely to find scum in there. Also: "I'm not saying that the people who I'm analyzing are automatically suspicious, but that their behavior lends some suspicion" seems kinda contradictory and empty.
I think that he's just trying to balance out the people (me among them) who tend to post as if slight amounts of suspicion make them *certain* of a scumread. I think that he's just explaining why he's focusing on that group as potentially, but assuring us that he isn't going to read those people in a biased light.
Then in #2059 he notices there are only 3 people in this group of people and decides taht because the group is so small, it's not as likely theres scum in there. This seems really weird to me. If you take a group big enough, obviously its nearly certain theres scum in there. If 3 people did something you think suspicious (or lending suspicion), it just doesnt make sense to think that it is not scummy because they are just three, especially if you think one of them is town, one scum, and don't have a rtead on the third because of other things.
Hmmm, now that is a bit strange. It didn't really pop out to me at the time, but now that you post this description of it, it feels weird. I went back to reread his post, and it seems like he thought he could get some interesting perspectives on people who were less visible. Then he was disappointed that the people in question were already super visible. Dsell because of the flavor-exchange with eHalcyon, me because I'm me, and Frisk because I just posted some things on him (plus, frisk is a hard one to go back and analyze, because of the concise nature of his posts, i feel).
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I just checked the intersection...
looks like: Frisk, Shraeye, Dsell. All voted FOR munch and NOT for Grujah.
That's a much smaller group then I would have expected.
Dsell is "cleared" by eHalc (also by Galzria's supposition)
Shraeye is already under a good amount of heat here, and I have a confirmation bias that annoying inflammatory people are scum. (i.e. I already think he's scum just for his posting pattern)
Frisk, I don't know anything about really at this juncture.
@theorel, What was Galzria's supposition? I don't recall whatever it is that you're talking about
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Cuzz/shraeye/Grujah scumteam ftw!
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Vote Count 3.3
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (1) -- yuma
theorel (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Cuzz (5) -- Axxle, ftl, sparky, watno
Not Voting (11) -- Dsell, Jotheonah, O, cayvie, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7, eHaclyon, ehunt, ashersky, shraeye
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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Parts I find strange: Why does Cuzz know with some certainty? Is there anything else hindering your certainty except for the information you got from the mod is false?
How can the conversation enlighten you to clarify your information?
I can't imagine any role that does this, especially I don't see one on the list Robz gave us.
I think it's well possible that Cuzz is a rolecop and knew that his information was true (because he investigated ashersky), however he wanted to derail the votes on shraeye.
vote Cuzz, because I dont think this claim can be true.
Just because you can't imagine a pro-town source of the info I gave doesn't mean there isn't one. I know I kinda brought it upon myself, but the speculation from you and joth is bordering on rolefishing. I could defend myself by giving more detail but if it gets me or another townie nightkilled what's the point?
I saw that ashersky was the second biggest wagon yesterday. I saw that a shraeye wagon was gaining steam right out of the gate today. I revealed what I knew to keep us from lynching town. That is all. I honestly didn't think this would be as big a deal as it's become.
What I will ask is that you consider how unbelievably stupid my actions would be as scum. It would be an absolutely absurd risk in comparison with the potential benefits. How is me being town not the much, much simpler explanation?
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idk guys i kinda buy cuzz's claim.
at least, i can sorta see how someone would make the decisions he has today as town.
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just to be clear, cuzz:
why was your original statement about shraeye and ashersky if you only had information about ashersky?
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@cayvie I did vote Grujah in #1376. Also can you frther explain how your tallying system works. If i say, for example, "I disagree with X and agree with Y that Z is scum" is that negative to X and Z, and positive to Y?
1) ugh, sorry
2) yes
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just to be clear, cuzz:
why was your original statement about shraeye and ashersky if you only had information about ashersky?
Basically, at the beginning of the day I knew that there was a townie among shraeye and ashersky. Later during the day I came to believe that information I had could not be about shraeye. This led me to conclude that ashersky is town.
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The problem is what you do doesn't make sense if youre town either, Cuzz. Why didn't you just say one of them was town, instead of vanilla town. I think you should reveal all the information you have (except if its from some kind of item you passed to someone else, in this case, dont tell us who has it now). If your role is not from an item, you already told mafia that you have some power role, so they might already kill you anyway. Your argument that if you reveal information that would draw the nightkill to you or another townie doesn't make any sense. Mafia WILL kill a townie, since it doesn't look like theres another scum team left. Since you might die it would also make sense if you revealed the result you got in night one.
Also, earlier, you stated that you KNEW the information refered to ashersky, now you say you just BELIEVE it.
I see no reason to trust you at the moment, and your claim changing all the time reminds me of Munch, who, though he wasn't Mafia, turned out to be scum after all.
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just to be clear, cuzz:
why was your original statement about shraeye and ashersky if you only had information about ashersky?
Basically, at the beginning of the day I knew that there was a townie among shraeye and ashersky. Later during the day I came to believe that information I had could not be about shraeye. This led me to conclude that ashersky is town.
Yeah, Cuzz, I don't see how you can confirm ashersky as town when it's only what you believe. If you are going to reveal, reveal the right way. Make it objective; don't throw your individual reads into it.
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Ugh weekends are so quiet here.
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Well, Munchie was scum. We are doing really good on lynches here, people. I really like the Grujah/Munch analysis. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that cuzz could be scum. It does kinda make sense, as Cayvie said. I would like to hear his response to Young Nick, though. As the deadline is pretty far away, I'm not gonna vote yet, I'll save that for later. But, ok here is a list about why people voted for cuzz:
Axxle: First voter day three. Voted because of Cuzz's conclusion on ashersky and shraeye that cuzz still stands by.
ftl: Because of Axxle's reasons and because he thought that cuzz wasn't helping the town by not sharing info.
sparky5856: because he's mental and wants more info from cuzz.
No votes in previous days.
Now looking over the votes, I have a couple things to say.
1) YN, explain why you think sparky's post was a rant? I think it made some sense besides "I'm mental".
2) cuzz please resopond to this: What made you come up with your conclusion about Ashersky and Shraeye? And, why haven't you told us yet?
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When did I say sparky ranted?
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When did I say sparky ranted?
Whoops sorry that was yuma.
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I'm having trouble with the Cuzz reveal. I agree with cayvie that it seems just crazy stupid for scumCuzz to make this claim. It seems to do very little for the mafia cause. And yet, the case doesn't seem to add up either. Cuzz initially says it applies to one of the two of them, then later says that something Ashersky said confirmed that the information applied to Ashersky. He initially expresses "some certainty" but later calls it a "belief." But look at the time stamps:
I would vote theorel based on this, but I really find it hard to believe Cuzz's claim: I'll summarize how it went down:
shraeye is at 5 votes (including double by axxle) + eHalc who believes he's scum
Anyway, I can tell you guys with some certainty that one of shraeye and ashersky is a VT.
Cuzz verifies that he means "at least one"
Based on the conversation so far, I actually would be able to refine/update the information at this time, but it might be best to hold off on that for now.
Ok, so as for clarification, I now know which out of ashersky and shraeye the information I received applies to.
So to reiterate: I can confirm one of them as town, and have absolutely no information on the other. The other could be scum, VT or paranoid gun owner for all I know.
But maybe I'll leave off the key detail for now, until I get more feedback. Let me know if you think I should do this yet or wait.
Ashersky is town. In his 2087 he basically confirms that my info is about him. Importantly, though, I knew this before he made that post.
This is all I got. I know nothing about shraeye's alignment.
Parts I find strange: Why does Cuzz know with some certainty? Is there anything else hindering your certainty except for the information you got from the mod is false?
How can the conversation enlighten you to clarify your information?
I can't imagine any role that does this, especially I don't see one on the list Robz gave us.
I think it's well possible that Cuzz is a rolecop and knew that his information was true (because he investigated ashersky), however he wanted to derail the votes on shraeye.
vote Cuzz, because I dont think this claim can be true.
@eHalc analysis -- good stuff so far. Shraeye is looking bad.
On the Cuzz reveal, I know he's right, at least. Not sure how it helped the town, since it suds like while can confirm VTness, he can't confirm the other.
For connivence sake here is the quote form ashersky that Cuzz mentions
Cuzz initially says at 12:31 am that he's able to update the information, but won't say more.
At 12:55 am Cuzz says he knows who the information applies to. He can "confirm one of them as town" but doesn't know about the other.
At 8:48 am, Cuzz says that Ashersky's 2087 "basically confirms" that the info is about Ashersky, and that Ashersky is town.
However, Ashersky's 2087 didn't happen until 3:46 am, so either one of Ashersky's previous posts tipped off Cuzz (and Cuzz forgot to mention it) or Cuzz slipped and just chose some post for reference.
I really don't know which of these it could be. Like I said, neither situation seems to fit correctly. But there it is.
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hey Cuzz, nobody's fishing. But if you want the town to act on your info, you have to give us a reason to believe it. It's all very well and good to say "X is town," but you can imagine how the game doesn't really work if we auto-believe all such claims.
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No need to fish for his role, just make him flip it.
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You guys are killing me here. Descriptions, guys. I received a description that I knew applied to one of a few people. This description described someone's role in a way that to me could only possibly apply to VT or Stump (essentially said "you aren't able to do anything"). This is where the mild uncertainty comes from, k? It takes a small amount of interpretation on my part, but it's pretty clear. This eliminated most of the pool (people who already had claimed roles/abilities). Then shraeye said this:
I don't know how descriptive the descriptions are. Mine is pretty descriptive, but that doesn't mean they all are. So it's possible that you're both town, or both mafia, or town/mafia in my eyes right now. Some of these are more likely scenarios, but I'm not ruling anything out.
This could not refer to the quote I received, so I narrowed down my pool more. Sorry for the confusion, but I naively thought people might take my word on it and move on, since this is not really the most exciting information. But this is taking a lot of time and energy so it's worth clearing up.
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That Stump thing is a joke obviously :).
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@Cuzz VT/Stump or Goon, Goons are vanilla mafia...
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I think my big take away from this is a whole lotta nothing...
I don't think descriptions have very much of anything to do with alignment...
Remember Grujah's
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Even themunch's isn't definitive... it refers to him liking blood and rare meat... but I think that could apply to anyone with a killing power, town or scum
I think the problem here is that Cuzz is interpreting a description as an alignment. I don't think that is a safe thing to do. Descriptions don't equal alignment. I don't care if shraeye's is long and ashersky's is short, it could easily go either way. Again, look at grujah's!
For this reason I for one am resetting everything regarding ashersky and shraeye to null regarding Cuzz's reveal. Both could be scum, both could be town or Cuzz could be scum or town. But none of the three are my top scum read. That honor still belongs to young nick.
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You guys are killing me here. Descriptions, guys. I received a description that I knew applied to one of a few people. This description described someone's role in a way that to me could only possibly apply to VT or Stump (essentially said "you aren't able to do anything"). This is where the mild uncertainty comes from, k? It takes a small amount of interpretation on my part, but it's pretty clear. This eliminated most of the pool (people who already had claimed roles/abilities). Then shraeye said this:
I don't know how descriptive the descriptions are. Mine is pretty descriptive, but that doesn't mean they all are. So it's possible that you're both town, or both mafia, or town/mafia in my eyes right now. Some of these are more likely scenarios, but I'm not ruling anything out.
This could not refer to the quote I received, so I narrowed down my pool more. Sorry for the confusion, but I naively thought people might take my word on it and move on, since this is not really the most exciting information. But this is taking a lot of time and energy so it's worth clearing up.
I see you misinterpreted me. I mean that my role description really really accurately describes my precise role. I tried to clarify this in a recent post to eHalcyon's stuff. It's a very short role description.
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I think my big take away from this is a whole lotta nothing...
I don't think descriptions have very much of anything to do with alignment...
Remember Grujah's
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Even themunch's isn't definitive... it refers to him liking blood and rare meat... but I think that could apply to anyone with a killing power, town or scum
I think the problem here is that Cuzz is interpreting a description as an alignment. I don't think that is a safe thing to do. Descriptions don't equal alignment. I don't care if shraeye's is long and ashersky's is short, it could easily go either way. Again, look at grujah's!
For this reason I for one am resetting everything regarding ashersky and shraeye to null regarding Cuzz's reveal. Both could be scum, both could be town or Cuzz could be scum or town. But none of the three are my top scum read. That honor still belongs to young nick.
I also agree that YoungNick is the person who's felt the most suspicious to me. I still haven't had enough time to review his posts, but I can do that when I get back home from vacation.
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You guys are killing me here. Descriptions, guys. I received a description that I knew applied to one of a few people. This description described someone's role in a way that to me could only possibly apply to VT or Stump (essentially said "you aren't able to do anything"). This is where the mild uncertainty comes from, k? It takes a small amount of interpretation on my part, but it's pretty clear. This eliminated most of the pool (people who already had claimed roles/abilities). Then shraeye said this:
I don't know how descriptive the descriptions are. Mine is pretty descriptive, but that doesn't mean they all are. So it's possible that you're both town, or both mafia, or town/mafia in my eyes right now. Some of these are more likely scenarios, but I'm not ruling anything out.
This could not refer to the quote I received, so I narrowed down my pool more. Sorry for the confusion, but I naively thought people might take my word on it and move on, since this is not really the most exciting information. But this is taking a lot of time and energy so it's worth clearing up.
At the very least, I think I can confirm that Cuzz is able to receive descriptions. How/why, I don't know, though.
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The thing is that right now, descriptions don't mean much of anything. Unless the description that Cuzz received is very specific, it is hard to say that it definitely belongs to a VT(/stump).
I'd say we should continue with other discussion unless Cuzz can actually clear someone. Even then, I don't think it makes sense for him to do so until that person is close to being lynched, which neither ashersky nor shraeye currently are.
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i'm mental
So I can say with about 85% certainty that Axxle is town, pegging me and Cuzz for questionable town play. And I believe both of us do. This is juicy information to tell us that DEFINITELY Player X out of 2 is of a certain alignment and not telling us which one. VOTE: Cuzz in order to prod for additional info. Plus maybe my shraeye argument is jumping the gun a bit; I make too many assumptions. I just want to find scum alright?
i may or may not be sleep-deprived. it's 4am right now, I spend every night talking...
sparky... don't post at night anymore... I never understand your late night rants and it just makes you look really scummy to me
lol
Just be glad I didn't post 100 times in a row.
I want to grab Cuzz's stream of thoughts here cuzz they seem inconsistent (ha, see what I did there):
Hi all. Sorry I missed most of the action yesterday. You guys produced like 12 pages of posts in a day and a half while I was V/LA and then the hammer happened while I was catching up.
Anyway, I can tell you guys with some certainty that one of shraeye and ashersky is a VT.
So, at this point he's not yet completely certain which of the two is VT. Supposedly.
I appreciate those who have remarked that my early info reveal may have been unwise. Point taken, but it's out there and I can't take it back now.
Based on the conversation so far, I actually would be able to refine/update the information at this time, but it might be best to hold off on that for now.
So he confirms that he has additional information regarding his claim, "based on the conversation so far".
Ugh, I apologize for the way this is going down. I realized that my initial reveal was a bit hasty so I just wanted to get some input before saying what else I know. But it's not helpful for anyone if you guys don't even believe me...
Ashersky is town. In his 2087 he basically confirms that my info is about him. Importantly, though, I knew this before he made that post.
This is all I got. I know nothing about shraeye's alignment.
I know it looks weird the way this info has come out, but just understand that I'm trying not to give scum any more info than they already have about the manner in which I obtained this info.
So he refers to #2087 as the reason that ashersky is the VT. He knew this before he made that post though.
Something happened between #2024 and #2079 that made Cuzz more certain about his info. The info, he confirms later on, is about ashersky. But, did ashersky post between #2024 and #2079? Nope. shraeye posted quite a lot, but Cuzz stated that he knows nothing about shraeye. So, what happened then?
...ohhh okay I just got to the part where Cuzz specifically refers to the post that confirms his info, saying that shraeye's description does not match a particular description he received. This actually clears up a LOT of the uncertainty with this reveal. There's still some unanswered questions though that I want clarifying from him though.
#1) Why did you not say earlier that what you knew specifically referred to people's descriptions? Just saying that "X or Y is town" doesn't add a whole lot of depth to their info if your argument isn't backed up with evidence.
#2) How did you know that the description you received specifically pertained to either shraeye or ashersky?
One other note: it's gonna be a pain to check the set-up information regarding this game in another thread :-\ I did see that descriptions ARE capable of giving clues as to a person's abilities or alignment. So, the description that Cuzz received can very well be the description of a VT imo.
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back from v/la, exhausted, will read tomorrow. instinct remains as it was, namely that cuzz-claim should be believed. don't know where that leaves us now that he's explicitly excluded shraeye.
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I'm starting to believe Cuzz.
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I mean even if we believe Cuzz is telling the truth...he has provided us with little to no actual information. He basically has told us that a role description implies that ashersky is a VT. But really, I have a hard time believing that role descriptions will tell that much.
In a game this large and with so many goofy roles (Eevee knows about a Cult, items, Cuzz getting one description applying to one of two names, each person having a card), I bet that not a single person is a VT. Sure, some people probably have very limited role (hey, Cuzz), but, yeah, I doubt there are VT's.
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Actually, my role confirms that at the start of the game, there were three mostly vanilla townies (like myself), and four true vanilla townies.
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Galzria, the Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
Well, cupbearing, but still.
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Galzria, the Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
Well, cupbearing, but still.
So now there are two mostly vanilla townies, and four pure VTs.
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Actually, my role confirms that at the start of the game, there were three mostly vanilla townies (like myself), and four true vanilla townies.
and once again Morgrim reveals his VTness...
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Galzria, the Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
Well, cupbearing, but still.
So now there are two mostly vanilla townies, and four pure VTs.
Oh my goodness more currently unverifiable information >_<
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Haven't been online this weekend. Probably going to be V/LA each weekend from now on. Haven't read anything since I last posted. I intend to catch up later today (it is just after midnight where I am), but I should be going to bed for now.
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Bah, I skimmed through the posts. Will read more indepth later.
I find ehalycon's slogging through analysis of all actions of a 25-player game to be wishful thinking. I also think expressing neutral reads on people in a 25 player game is not indicative of very much.
Are you referring to cayvie's attempt at analysis? I haven't tried to analyze all actions. Also, neutral read can mean something depending on when it is made.
Re: Cuzz claim, depending on the description, he may be able to surmise something about the player's alignment. Probably the easiest (but I'm not sure if it's the best) way to resolve it is for Cuzz to post the actual description he received so that everyone can judge whether it means anything. Then either ashersky or shraeye can say, "yeah, that's my description".
If both ash and shraeye try to claim it, we know one of them is lying.
If only one claims it, then that player and Cuzz are linked, which can help in the future. For example, if ash claims that Cuzz correctly got his description and shraeye doesn't contend, then if ash dies and flips scum we know Cuzz was lying. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work the other way -- in the same situation, if Cuzz died and flipped scum, we can't assume that ash is scum from the association since it is possible that a scum power could reveal descriptions.
As it is, I find Cuzz' claim believable due to the existence of the WIFOM. Likewise, I can imagine Cuzz coming to a conclusion that the description suggests towniness, since I got the same thing out of Dsell's description.
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Bah, I skimmed through the posts. Will read more indepth later.
I find ehalycon's slogging through analysis of all actions of a 25-player game to be wishful thinking. I also think expressing neutral reads on people in a 25 player game is not indicative of very much.
Are you referring to cayvie's attempt at analysis? I haven't tried to analyze all actions. Also, neutral read can mean something depending on when it is made.
Re: Cuzz claim, depending on the description, he may be able to surmise something about the player's alignment. Probably the easiest (but I'm not sure if it's the best) way to resolve it is for Cuzz to post the actual description he received so that everyone can judge whether it means anything. Then either ashersky or shraeye can say, "yeah, that's my description".
If both ash and shraeye try to claim it, we know one of them is lying.
If only one claims it, then that player and Cuzz are linked, which can help in the future. For example, if ash claims that Cuzz correctly got his description and shraeye doesn't contend, then if ash dies and flips scum we know Cuzz was lying. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work the other way -- in the same situation, if Cuzz died and flipped scum, we can't assume that ash is scum from the association since it is possible that a scum power could reveal descriptions.
As it is, I find Cuzz' claim believable due to the existence of the WIFOM. Likewise, I can imagine Cuzz coming to a conclusion that the description suggests towniness, since I got the same thing out of Dsell's description.
I can already confirm Cuzz knew the exact wording of my description based on his last reveal.
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Whoa, I'm may be able to help us confirm this, ashersky. Is the fourth word of your description 'just'?
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I just checked the intersection...
looks like: Frisk, Shraeye, Dsell. All voted FOR munch and NOT for Grujah.
That's a much smaller group then I would have expected.
Dsell is "cleared" by eHalc (also by Galzria's supposition)
Shraeye is already under a good amount of heat here, and I have a confirmation bias that annoying inflammatory people are scum. (i.e. I already think he's scum just for his posting pattern)
Frisk, I don't know anything about really at this juncture.
@theorel, What was Galzria's supposition? I don't recall whatever it is that you're talking about
Galzria supposed DSell was town yesterday. I think primarily because he drank the wine, although he made a couple other comments including that he could believe DSell was "misguided town". I don't remember anything else, but I had a sense from yesterday that Galzria believed DSell to be town, but not for any strong reasons. That's what I was referencing, simply that a confirmed townie supposed DSell was town. The cleared is in quotes because it's not sufficient to clear him.
Also to clarify: yes larger groupings are more likely to contain scum. I've stated this many times, but I'll state it again here. People do suspicious/anti-town things. Town players do it, scum players do it. The scum players are doing it intentionally (to some degree). The three people that I was/am reviewing did something suspicious. This does not make them scum. If there were 5-6 players there, I would have strong reason to believe that one of them is scum. As is, I don't have strong reason to believe one of them is scum, I just think they each did something suspicious. In other words, if the group were say 6 players I would say there was like a 95% chance that it contained scum, and would think that looking there would give a good chance of finding scum. Now, that's probably true of any group of 6 players, but these 6 players would all have something in common, which makes them easier to compare. Also, however much O might disagree I think it's likely that scum players, knowing who their partners are, are more likely to divide, therefore making groupings that all have similar behavior less likely to contain multiple scum. (Sometimes this is false, and I try to be aware of those situations as well). All of this suggests that when analyzing a group of say 6 players, that all had similar behavior I can look for someone that stands out a bit, and hope to catch scum that way. With 3 players, I think there's maybe a 60%* chance that the group contains scum. It's a little better than any random grouping of 3 (I think? obviously it depends on number of scum-players etc), so, that's where I'm looking.
*=60% is a made up number, with no basis in reality. What I should say is that I believe that those 3 players are slightly more likely than any other group of 3 players to contain scum. This probability gap isn't such that I'm assured of finding scum, but enough that I feel looking into them more merits it.
Anyways, I've read about 40 of shraeye's posts, and determined why I found him scummy (it's much like O). He overemphasizes his contrabutions while belittling others and using superlatives to build up his case rather than logical argument. This isn't to say his posts have no use, or that he's necessarily scum, but it creates the sort of environment that I personally feel is less likely to find scum, OR even if it finds scum becomes relatively useless because town won't join in with you. Compare to someone like eHalcyon or Galzria: they build strong cases, and offer good arguments for what they believe. While an argument can be made for the confrontational scum-hunting, personally I find Galzria/eHacyon's methods much better. That doesn't make eHalcyon town, and shraeye scum, it just means I enjoy the game more playing with eHalcyon than shraeye.
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Anyways, I've read about 40 of shraeye's posts, and determined why I found him scummy (it's much like O). He overemphasizes his contrabutions while belittling others and using superlatives to build up his case rather than logical argument. This isn't to say his posts have no use, or that he's necessarily scum, but it creates the sort of environment that I personally feel is less likely to find scum, OR even if it finds scum becomes relatively useless because town won't join in with you. Compare to someone like eHalcyon or Galzria: they build strong cases, and offer good arguments for what they believe. While an argument can be made for the confrontational scum-hunting, personally I find Galzria/eHacyon's methods much better. That doesn't make eHalcyon town, and shraeye scum, it just means I enjoy the game more playing with eHalcyon than shraeye.
What's doubly weird here is that his behavior was the polar opposite in MIX - he was hypercongenial a la eHalc - i even remember him derailing a fight with a "let's all calm down" post. and he was obvtown in that game (and NKed night one).
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as far as i'm concerned, the cuzz/ashersky/shraeye sort of thing just can't be faked. too many details lining up, too many things that had to happen in the right order. so i believe we can deduce that ashersky is town and that it's very likely that cuzz is town. we should also lower the probability that shraeye is scum, especially if his latest weirdness is true (the nth word in your description).
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Unvote
Since over the weekend ash and shraeye confirmed that cuzz actually did know ash's description.
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Ashersky and Morgrim, don't put your description down. It's possible that we can work together to verify Morgrim's claim that there are 3 vanilla townies and also create a few ICs, I'm hoping that we have the same description and can confirm eachother. I'd like the chance for us to be able to ask eachother some questions that would be unanswerable unless we were both looking at the same description.
I can confirm that the letter 'e' occurs in my description 3 times, the letter 'y' occurs 4 times. Does this match your description?
Can you pick two letters and do the same?
Morgrim, can you answer another crazy question regarding your description? What is the ratio of punctuation marks to letters?
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Ah, I see I misread your claim regarding towniness. Still, I'd like the chance to confirm with ashersky.
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and above the word "your" should be "Morgrim's"
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THREAD LOCKED MOMENTARILY.
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ANNOUNCEMENT:
The thread was locked to review a possible rules infraction. Having weighed the matter and consulted experienced players who are no longer in the game, I have made the following determinations:
1) A post violated the spirit of the rules
2) This facet of the rules was improperly explained by myself and by past mods
3) Therefore, it's no one's fault, and no punishment will be taken
In order to explain the what/why/how of this, I have to go into considerable detail, so please read the following examples carefully:
Ashersky and Morgrim, don't put your description down. It's possible that we can work together to verify Morgrim's claim that there are 3 vanilla townies and also create a few ICs, I'm hoping that we have the same description and can confirm eachother. I'd like the chance for us to be able to ask eachother some questions that would be unanswerable unless we were both looking at the same description.
I can confirm that the letter 'e' occurs in my description 3 times, the letter 'y' occurs 4 times. Does this match your description?
Can you pick two letters and do the same?
Morgrim, can you answer another crazy question regarding your description? What is the ratio of punctuation marks to letters?
The first bolded section violates the spirit of the rules. The seconded bolded section is fine, because you are permitted to ask someone to violate the rules. However, if Morgrim had given the desired response, he would have violated the rules.
Here is the section of the rules that was violated:
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind, UNLESS GIVEN MOD PERMISSION. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
Stating how many letters appear in your role PM falls under the category of "quoting Moderator-supplied information," rather than under "paraphrasing." Mafiascum wiki says that such action falls under "Gaming the System." You may view this page here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Boilerplate_Mafiascum_Game_Rules
However, that same page says that the only rules in effect are the ones confirmed by the moderator at the start of game. What's more, this isn't Mafiascum.net. Therefore, no technical rule was broken.
But henceforth, let me be explicit: This does violate the rules, moving forward. You may neither reveal your Description, nor post how many a's it contains, nor ask someone who claims to have received your role PM what the fourth word in the PM is, nor do anything of this sort. You MUST paraphrase moderator-supplied information when you post it.
For instance, let's say your role PM is this: "You are terrible. Everyone dislikes you. Seriously, why are you playing this game?"
You could paraphrase the role in any of the following ways: "My role calls me names and says that everyone hates me." "My role questions why I would even play this game and says I'm terrible." etc.
Use your best discretion. If you are unclear about whether you have sufficiently paraphrased mod-supplied information, than I encourage you to PM me with what you intend to post, and I will be more than happy to tell you whether it's okay.
(To be clear, you don't have to paraphrase the name of your role. "Cop" can't be paraphrased.)
**It has been decided that the best way to handle the situation is for me to issue shraeye a new role Description.** This is in no way intended to confirm or deny whether Cuzz, or any other player, received shraeye's role PM. It is simply the best way to deal with the situation. I would counsel against over-analyzing why/whether is was necessary.
Here was another post that might be causing some confusion:
You guys are killing me here. Descriptions, guys. I received a description that I knew applied to one of a few people. This description described someone's role in a way that to me could only possibly apply to VT or Stump (essentially said "you aren't able to do anything"). This is where the mild uncertainty comes from, k? It takes a small amount of interpretation on my part, but it's pretty clear. This eliminated most of the pool (people who already had claimed roles/abilities). Then shraeye said this:
If the bolded section had been moderator-supplied information, I would in fact have to modkill Cuzz, based on the explicitly stated rules. Fortunately, Cuzz did not quote moderator-supplied information. Whether that means he sufficiently paraphrased the information he received, fabricated the information, or something else entirely, is of course unknown to the rest of you. But there was in fact no infraction here.
FURTHER NOTES
It seems important to remind everyone of the following information given in the opening post of the first Mafia XI thread:
Description: Each player will receive a personalized paragraph that gives information about him. It may speak to his reputation as a Forum Mafia player, it may contain clues to his abilities or alignment, or it may be merely humorous.
Emphasis added.
Lastly, I hope everyone is aware that I hold no one at fault (other than myself), for what happened. Truly, the rules as I intended them should have been better explained by me. Furthermore, there is very, very little (if any) practical harm done to the game, so I hope no one views it as "compromised." This is not just my view; this is also the view of those with whom I discussed the situation.
Key points:
A) You must paraphrase all moderator-supplied information. PM me first if you're unsure.
B) shraeye has received a new Description (or will, in the next 10 minutes)
C) Cuzz did not violate the rule against posting moderator-supplied information
D) Really, this wasn't as big a deal as such a long and thorough post might make it seem; I am just guarding against future issues
THREAD UNLOCKED
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Vote: Robz for preventing potential scumhunting.
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But, actually, my Vote: Shraeye still stands.
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This game is going so slowly.
Right now, people who I consider quite likely town:
eHal
Cuzz
Ashersky
Morgrim
ehunt (not quite as strong)
Shraeye (lowest on this list but I really just do not think that whole description-matching thing would come from scum)
I feel like Young Nick is the scummiest person in here right now, purely based on arguments made earlier in the day and yesterday.
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i don't fully understand the ramifications of the description-matching business; i'm not entirely sure what went on there.
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i don't fully understand the ramifications of the description-matching business; i'm not entirely sure what went on there.
I think shraeye got a slap on the wrist, and we've been told not to try to bend the rules again (ie don't discuss the specific wording of our PMs)
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i don't fully understand the ramifications of the description-matching business; i'm not entirely sure what went on there.
Basically, rule breaches aside, Cuzz outed at least one VT, which is probably anti-town behavior, as mafia can focus on others in the PR hunt. At least, that's my understanding of how this works. As it is, Cuzz is probably town, and just helped mafia a bit.
He probably would have been better served saying "I can confirm ashersky is town" instead of his odd two name VT thing.
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I think shraeye was softclaiming VT too.
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Anyways, I've read about 40 of shraeye's posts, and determined why I found him scummy (it's much like O). He overemphasizes his contrabutions while belittling others and using superlatives to build up his case rather than logical argument. This isn't to say his posts have no use, or that he's necessarily scum, but it creates the sort of environment that I personally feel is less likely to find scum, OR even if it finds scum becomes relatively useless because town won't join in with you. Compare to someone like eHalcyon or Galzria: they build strong cases, and offer good arguments for what they believe. While an argument can be made for the confrontational scum-hunting, personally I find Galzria/eHacyon's methods much better. That doesn't make eHalcyon town, and shraeye scum, it just means I enjoy the game more playing with eHalcyon than shraeye.
What's doubly weird here is that his behavior was the polar opposite in MIX - he was hypercongenial a la eHalc - i even remember him derailing a fight with a "let's all calm down" post. and he was obvtown in that game (and NKed night one).
Right I read about that when I was skimming day1. (I didn't follow MIX, since it was too big also). So, basically, I already knew that I read shraeye as scum more because of posting style than content. I realize now, that it's the same as the O situation, where the thing I dislike is how he over-emphasizes his contributions and uses superlatives over logic. Now, honestly that is a scummier-than-not thing, or at least it seems that way to me (hence why O is viewed as having a scummy meta). But it's probably not as scummy as it feels to me (because I just really dislike the distortion). So, I need to recognize the bias and correct for it, and I'm trying to do that.
Now secondarily, shraeye has also changed behaviors. This could mean any number of things, from "he feels like the other play-style is weak" to "he has a different win-con" (note: there are several reasons in between, but I think that's the "towniest" and "scummiest" reason respectively). Personally I think that a change in win-con would be subtler, so if it's a change in win-con, he's trying to cover for it by using a vastly different play-style. But that could be a far-sighted view of changing up his game style for when he does roll scum in the future.
Ultimately shraeye's attempt to bend the rules seems like a townie thing to do, and unlikely to be a big set-up (as it would suggest that he and ashersky are both scum implying Cuzz is likely scum also). Although, he could have gotten a townie description somehow and tried to use it to lend credence to a town-claim. Ultimately, I'm with ehunt and viewing them as more-likely-than-not town.
Anyways, I'll try to review Frisk now.
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Alright... it is getting to the point where I am starting to wonder what to do. There has been so little activity here. As I have mentioned multiple times I have a really good scum read on Young Nick and feel very comfortable with my vote on him.
However, that line of thought does not seem to be gaining much traction. Dsell, cayvie, shraeye and someone else? have all expressed suspicion toward him, but have not yet voted for him.
My question is this: do I abandon my best scum read to go try and find another scum read--there are options out there certainly, but I have not explored all of them fully--or do I continue to vote young nick and hope that others start participating more and voicing their opinions--and hopefully votes--on him?
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Alright... it is getting to the point where I am starting to wonder what to do. There has been so little activity here. As I have mentioned multiple times I have a really good scum read on Young Nick and feel very comfortable with my vote on him.
However, that line of thought does not seem to be gaining much traction. Dsell, cayvie, shraeye and someone else? have all expressed suspicion toward him, but have not yet voted for him.
My question is this: do I abandon my best scum read to go try and find another scum read--there are options out there certainly, but I have not explored all of them fully--or do I continue to vote young nick and hope that others start participating more and voicing their opinions--and hopefully votes--on him?
the problem is that reading this thread is SO MUCH WORK. and it's very hard to guilt yourself into doing work for mafia when mafia is your way of procrastinating work you should actually be doing.
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Amen to that brother.
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I agree with eHunt and CF, this game has soo many players its just so hard to get a handle on but we have managed to lynch scum day 1 and 2 so we are in relatively good shape. Maybe we need another soft deadline? Those seem to spur activity.
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Well I'm voting theorel - who seems to be the only person who does care about whats going on. Want to join?
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I'll hop on the Young Nick wagon. Vote: Young Nick
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Well I'm voting theorel - who seems to be the only person who does care about whats going on. Want to join?
I was interested when he was a mega lurker Day 1/2. I'm less interested in lynching active players and more inclinded to aim for lurkers which does at the moment include myself and a whole slew of other people cuz man is this game huge.
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I think caring about this game is a scumtell.
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(no offense intended RobZ - its just too much!)
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I think caring about this game is a scumtell.
Grujah would like a word.
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Counting posts for D3 for the heck of it and it might be useful to us who knows.
Ftl: 5?
sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss): 9
Insomniac: 7
Dsell: 14
Jotheonah: 15
Young Nick: 11
O (2) (replaced Voltaire): 2??
Axxle: 12
Cayvie: 11
Shraeye: 35!
Cuzz: 9
Yuma: 15
theorel (replaced ibgtennis): 6
Morgrim7: 4?
EHalcyon: 24!
Watno: 2??
Captain_Frisk: 6
ehunt: 13
ashersky: 7
Total posts: 210, Average posts per player is 11. If my math is correct.
So wow, I'm only slightly below the average. That may be partially due to my shraeye tunneling who knows.
I'll park a vote on VOTE: Watno. I'll probably put my thoughts on ALL of his D3 posts later, I wanna get this post out here for now before anyone else posts and I have to update this >_<
Dunno about O, he's the quietest actually but in his two posts I'm not picking up the same boldness from the scum version of him that I saw in MIX D1.
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I will sheep Yuma and vote: young nick.
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...or maybe I should look more into Young Nick? How many votes is that on him now? Unfortunately I don't feel like reading all 80 pages of the previous days to determine his behavior patterns >_< I just noticed this though:
1. My own personal read on scum is highest on Young Nick. I am going to remind everyone of what I consider to be the scummiest post all game when Grujah was at 9 votes Day 1.
yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
He was willing to sacrifice himself to save Grujah, the Jack-of-All-Trades? And what kind of argument is that? "Don't vote him because I said so"?
This is what I get for just skimming the bigger posts. >_<
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Yep, I'll get on board with a Vote: Young Nick. My strongest scum read at this point too, and that's not gonna change unless we get some stuff happening. Like a wagon.
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That's three votes on me if I remember correct.
Everyone seems to be going to this post as the baseline for the argument about why I am scummy. I have explained many times why I said it. I understand now why it was wrong, but I just don't understand how people view this as "trying to derail the Grujah lynch."
That is just misconstruction. What it was was prodding yuma for a bit more information about why he was voting for Grujah because that post made it seem like yuma was voting for Grujah solely because he had been lurking.
Note that I did this to no other players regarding their vote on Grujah. Note that there were other people lurking harder than Grujah at the time.
So as you look at my defense of Grujah, ask yourself, "Was he derailing the Grujah lynch or was he actually prodding yuma for more information?"
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That's four votes now.
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That's four votes now.
The "this post" I refer to in my post is the one quoted by sparky a few posts above it. Sorry for the confusion.
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YN, I completely understand your frustration since I was in the same position of trying to derail the Grujah lynch, but I think most of us find it very difficult to believe that ALL the mafia bussed their JOAT on day 1. Of those who didn't, your position was one of the scummier, Munch flipped SK, and several of us have been "cleared" through various means, the wine or various mysterious claims and whatnot.
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Vote Count 3.4
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (4) -- yuma, Jotheonah, ashersky, Dsell
theorel (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Cuzz (3) -- Axxle, watno
watno (1) -- sparky
Not Voting (9) -- O, cayvie, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7, eHaclyon, ehunt, shraeye, ftl
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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And on that "mysterious claims" front, I still find shraeye scummy. We have a meta here to view crazy, frequent-posting, insulting play styles as too ballsy to be Mafia when in fact it could either be them tilting or WIFOM. I honestly think that shraeye still looks horrible. His big case on me was good, but he seems to provide not much else in his other posts and ignores the good parts of the arguments against him (like most of eHalc's).
Still, this d3 has felt silent. Watno, Frisk, ashersky, morgrim, ftl are all silent. Hell, I even forgot that Watno and Morgrim were in the game.
If y'all lynch me, at least make sure everyone else checks in first. Don't want to see people lurking their way through a lynch.
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I thought Shraeye looked scummy too. But I teeend to think that that Cuzz-Ashersky-Morgrim-Shraeye business makes him look townier...or at least I think he's not a good lynch for today.
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Now this explanation by Cuzz is actually something I'm willing to believe for now. However, as someone (I forgot who) already pointed out, did you check again if the description you received actually implis that ashersky is town, or just says that he has no abilities?
So ill change my vote to vote theorel. Since my last post he posted post #2185, which basically says nothing. He clarifies something he had said earlier, then explains why he thinks that a group of 3 people who did something suspicious, isn't that likely to contain scum and saying that a group of 6 people who did the same would be way more likely to have scum in it (a random group of 6 players has a very high chance of containing scum too). Then he explains that the reason he he had a scum read on shraeyed, is because he doens't like how he plays, basically invalidating his scum read.
Post #2201 goes in asimilar direction, saying again that vhis scum read is mostly based on bias. at least, he comes to the conclusion that shareye is likely town.
I get the feeling that after being called out for lurking, he's now writing some rather long posts to look better, but still doesn't want to commit to taking stances. He doesn't even mention what he thinks about Cuzz and wether he believes in a single post.
I don't think the post YoungNick asks why people don't go for other lurkers than Grujah doesn't look as scummy to me as it seems to do to others. I think the asking why people go for him instead of others is kinda natural, though he could have found out by reading why people voted Grujah more closely probably. I still think YoungNick looks kinda scummy for not saying much in his posts either.
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My analysis on Watno as promised:
I don't think we should put any credence in Munch's last words of shraeye being scum. He definitely had no interest in helping town after he was as good as dead. I believe him pulling a jape on his Rl friend is much more likely than the he actually knew it AND decided to tell us. I definitely think people voting him just for this are making things to easy.
A decent input in the situation, but almost 7 pages in this doesn't really feel ... "unique", like he's just simply putting an opinion out there just for content.
I really don't like theorel's posts today:
#2049 is excuses for not posting, a bit of stating the obvious, and an announcement that he will look at the people who didnt vote for Grujah but did vote for Munch, because he thinks its more likely to find scum in there. Also: "I'm not saying that the people who I'm analyzing are automatically suspicious, but that their behavior lends some suspicion" seems kinda contradictory and empty.
Then in #2059 he notices there are only 3 people in this group of people and decides taht because the group is so small, it's not as likely theres scum in there. This seems really weird to me. If you take a group big enough, obviously its nearly certain theres scum in there. If 3 people did something you think suspicious (or lending suspicion), it just doesnt make sense to think that it is not scummy because they are just three, especially if you think one of them is town, one scum, and don't have a rtead on the third because of other things.
What I find intriguing on this is how much theorel has been ignored ever since he first posted. eHalc didn't even have a comment about #2059. The only substantial thing is Frisk's vote saying "he's better than this". shraeye stated that he liked theorel's posts. Watno tries to straight-up analyze though. Good points overall actually, though he may just be trying to tackle a player who's been scrutinized heavily in the past, in which case you WANT the analysis.
I would vote theorel based on this, but I really find it hard to believe Cuzz's claim: I'll summarize how it went down:
[...]
Parts I find strange: Why does Cuzz know with some certainty? Is there anything else hindering your certainty except for the information you got from the mod is false?
How can the conversation enlighten you to clarify your information?
I can't imagine any role that does this, especially I don't see one on the list Robz gave us.
I think it's well possible that Cuzz is a rolecop and knew that his information was true (because he investigated ashersky), however he wanted to derail the votes on shraeye.
vote Cuzz, because I dont think this claim can be true.
Well I voted Cuzz, and I stated that the bit about descriptions clears up a lot of the confusion. I still want Cuzz to address my two questions I posed in my #2172. He hasn't posted once since. That could be due to MXII though lol
The problem is what you do doesn't make sense if youre town either, Cuzz. Why didn't you just say one of them was town, instead of vanilla town. I think you should reveal all the information you have (except if its from some kind of item you passed to someone else, in this case, dont tell us who has it now). If your role is not from an item, you already told mafia that you have some power role, so they might already kill you anyway. Your argument that if you reveal information that would draw the nightkill to you or another townie doesn't make any sense. Mafia WILL kill a townie, since it doesn't look like theres another scum team left. Since you might die it would also make sense if you revealed the result you got in night one.
Also, earlier, you stated that you KNEW the information refered to ashersky, now you say you just BELIEVE it.
I see no reason to trust you at the moment, and your claim changing all the time reminds me of Munch, who, though he wasn't Mafia, turned out to be scum after all.
I've seen that before. Player A did this and is Alignment X; Player B did the same thing, therefore Player B must be Alignment X. I consider that Cuzz being scum due to changing claims and theMunch being scum flawed logic. Is it specifically this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation) that I'm thinking of? Point is, Cuzz changing his claim could very well have been for other reasons. And besides, wouldn't other players be smart not to repeat the same mistake as Munch did? He got pegged pretty fast for that.
Also he's nitpicking for words, trying to force more oomph into his argument. Side note: YN did the same thing.
just to be clear, cuzz:
why was your original statement about shraeye and ashersky if you only had information about ashersky?
Basically, at the beginning of the day I knew that there was a townie among shraeye and ashersky. Later during the day I came to believe that information I had could not be about shraeye. This led me to conclude that ashersky is town.
Yeah, Cuzz, I don't see how you can confirm ashersky as town when it's only what you believe. If you are going to reveal, reveal the right way. Make it objective; don't throw your individual reads into it.
Oh hey Watno did post again. Of note is the lack of response to my #212. He believes Cuzz now, again going in line with my "non-unique-thoughts" trail of thinking (does he see that the Cuzz wagon is losing steam, therefore he backs away?), although he's querying Cuzz now as well. He's going after theorel hard; the observation about him and Cuzz is an interesting one, although theorel may feel like everyone else has already said what needs to be said about the subject, who knows. Finally he states that YN is "kinda scummy".
So, overall YN I think is more probable to be scum than Watno (although still he's slightly scummy, only 3 posts so far and not acknowledging his lurking is bizarre in my eyes), but I'm not driving that wagon farther until the rest of the town gets chances to weigh in.
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young nick is my current primary (and only, tbh) scumread.
i'm going to try to go through more people tonight after work. i know, promises promises.
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What kind of response did you expect? It's true I didn't post much today, I didn't get to much over the weekend and yesterday when i wanted to the thread was locked.
Regarding your analysis: The post where I talk about Cuzz is from before he told us about the description thiing, and things didn't add up for me at that point. I think that changing a claim is most likely being caused by noticing it doesn't work the way you first did it and usually implies at least one version being a lie (though it doesn't look like it did in this case). Of course Munch flipping scum doesn't prove anything, but it is still evidence supporting what i said. Also I think especially after the Munch's lynch, town players would double check their PM to avoid. inconsistencies. Anyway, since Cuzz imho provided a sufficient explanation in the meantime, this doesn't matter any more.
Also I wasn't "nitpicking for words" and neither was Nick. If one thing a player says contradicts another thing he says, pointing that out is not nitpicking.
The question I posed to Cuzz isn't caused by suspicion he is scum, I just want to make sure he doesn't read more info in what he got than there actually is, because that could be devastating.
Regarding what you say about "non-unique thoughts": It's only natural, especially with that many players, that your opinions will coincide with others. It's still important to state them, because if people don't state their opinions they can't be held accountable for them and there's now way we can tell wether they're scum or not (or actually we can, because not stating them is scummy). This is also why theorel should say wether he believes Cuzz regardless of wether this coincides with what others do.
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Vote: watno
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Vote: watno
i'm not seeing it, frisk, explain
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Overly defensive plus it's rvs
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Not true rvs bviosly, but more than willing to throw a vote around in a town this size, even on day 3.
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i'm not at all a fan of the watno wagon.
iirc (will go look for evidence) he and grujah fought hardcore. plus he was on the gruj-wagon. yes, scum bus (something important to remember) but they don't bus the joat on day one in an infinity-player game i don't think.
the young nick wagon i could get behind, otoh.
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well watno attacked grujah hard and early, but not vice-versa, i don't think grujah mentioned watno at all except a "no read" in a long list type post. my point stands.
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i'm not at all a fan of the watno wagon.
I agree. After looking back at today's posts from sparky--who is voting for Watno--he has grown on me as a potential lynch candidate--hey look at that I did scum hunting w/o really even meaning to!--after Young Nick.
I didn't like his immediate vote on sparky while providing what I consider and what Axxle pointed out to be a "terrible post accompanying it." Axxle you mentioned that you were going to do a reread on sparky, did you do so and did you post it?
Furthermore once he attempts to explain his vote on shraeye the only rationale that he provides is: "Further evidence in my eyes that they knew each others roles somehow. They are roommates after all" which just isn't good enough.
His vote on Cuzz was to "prod for additional info" but Cuzz already had received a lot of votes and request for additional info... an additional vote wasn't going to change what Cuzz told us. Instead this looks like wagon voting w/o providing a suspicion but providing an excuse to join a building wagon early.
His analysis on Watno looks like an attempt to rationalize his earlier vote on him that was actually based on post counts--which is from a day that includes the weekend and not much else from anyone on other days--I agree Watno should post more, but everyone probably should. Again I am not out to lynch lurkers. I am willing to lynch scummy lurkers, but I don't consider Watno to be that.
I haven't looked at any of his day 1 or 2 posts, and probably won't unless the Young Nick wagon dies along the way...
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rvs on Day 3 what?
I thought my insight into shraeye was actually worth looking into considering he was already receiving a lot of heat. Remember that I haven't been here the whole time so I cannot recall everything scummy that he's done. I don't have the time to read most of the walls of text in this game >_<
If *I'm* going to wagon-vote on Cuzz as you said, it would have been towards the end of the day. Attracting attention like that as scum is something I tried not to do. To try to fly under the radar more in my scum games I didn't vote unless I was sure that they would be a good lynch candidate. I've been all over the place today. I'm testing the field, trying to get reactions. What's so bad about that? I don't like to attempt to pressure others as scum, because I know that it'll attract attention to myself, as it is now apparently. Plus I wasn't in the smartest mood that post remember that lol
Again I don't know Watno's behavior D1, so I can't provide analysis there. thank you eHunt for providing some synopsis.
Young Nick I can definitely get behind. But I like garnering information as well, i.e. by attempting to start potential wagons and see where they go. Interesting so far. I'm not sure what to make of the only other vote so far being partly-rvs.
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yeah Axxle where's my analysis on my terrible behavior?
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I just got back from my vacation; have a large headache so I don't feel like doing a big write up right now. I read day 2 of the following people (ashersky, jotheonah, eHalcyon, youngNick, insomniac, axxle) while on the airplane.
These three have towny vibes from in varying degrees: ashersky, eHalcyon, insomniac
these three were looking suspicious to varying degrees: youngNick, axxle, joth
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I've been avoiding this... but I guess I can't put it off any longer.
Also:
Vote: Young Nick
God I am interested in this but can't sign up. If I die in MXI...
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I've been avoiding this... but I guess I can't put it off any longer.
Also:
Vote: Young Nick
God I am interested in this but can't sign up. If I die in MXI...
i don't understand the relevance of the quote.
are you facetiously helping him with his decision to sign up for MXIII?
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...alright sure. let's go down this road.
VOTE: Young Nick
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That puts me at 7.
The main arguments against me (I can't find shraeye's large case on me, so forgive me if I omit some of his points):
1. My defending of Grujah.
2. My lurking in the early days after returning from V/LA.
3. My posting that doesn't build specific cases but comments on others' cases and overall adds little content to the game.
4. My posts have a scummy undertone to them and my reads are poor.
I believe I have addressed 1. enough times that I need not say more.
I have not really been V/LA since that first week after returning. Life was hectic then. I am able to read and keep up now.
The biggest point anyone can make in terms of lynching me is in no. 3. I admit that I do not have the work ethic to re-read hundreds of posts to construct a case on someone else. This means that my cases are usually based off of gut-reactions, rather than formal analysis, and thus are harder to present to others. Note that this does not mean that I don't have reads, but rather that I am not good at communicating them. This is true. This is how I am in real life, too. Now, I don't think I am the only one doing this, but I can see why one would determine that this quality is one that is lynch-worthy. I would refer y'all to MVII, but, well, I was Mafia in MVII.
What I will say is that that was my first game ever and my mentality through it all was "if there were another scum team, who would belong." In this sense, I didn't try to get a wagon going on people who I thought might be PR's, but on people who I thought were acting scummy. I didn't build (m)any formal cases that game, well, because it's not my play style.
So I guess my play style is inherently scummy. My advice to you guys is deal with it. We apparently put up with hard-core lurking and crazy rant defenses, so put up with this, too.
As for no. 4...well I don't know what to say regarding that.
You guys are probably giving Mafia a chance to come hammer me right now saying they agree with previous arguments. In fact, I think some others have already hedged and expressed interest in me without yet placing a vote.
I am town. I promise you that. I still think shraeye looks pretty bad. Ever since we slowed down on him, his posting has gone way down. People are voting for me by saying I look scummy without providing too many details. If you are going to vote for me, at least have the decency to spell out why so that when I flip town you don't come off as scummy. Do yourself and myself that favor.
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That puts me at 7.
The main arguments against me (I can't find shraeye's large case on me, so forgive me if I omit some of his points):
...
I still think shraeye looks pretty bad. Ever since we slowed down on him, his posting has gone way down.
My low post count also corresponded perfectly with my announced vacation from Friday to this evening.
I'll present more cases tomorrow. Please nobody drop any hammers until I can type up this analysis i've done on a few players.
For reference, here is my original writeup on YoungNick.
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I have been busy and haven't had time to do much reading. How long do we have until deadline? I would prefer not to lynch prematurely. My absence has dulled all my reads. I am ok with Young Nick lynch but the main reason for it would be the strange defense of Grujah.
I feel like I need to review all the weird claims that came out surrounding Cuzz, ash, shraeye and Morgrim.
I think O2 has been more absent than I have been but without any reason. Would like to hear more from him.
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Shraeye quieting down isn't suspicious. He'd been posting like a madman earlier. Keeping that up for a long time is like impossible.
We still need Morgrim to check in here and respond to something. Not like it matters much, I think, he'll probably just sheep the wagon, 'tis what he does. Didn't he like claim VT or something?
eHalc, the lynch deadline is Thursday, so pretty soon. The claims basically come down to Cuzz claiming that Ash is vt. I don't want to lynch any of those four people right now, and I suppose I'm ok with a young nick lynch.
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Morgrim claimed VT-with-a-bonus (like Galzria), presumably he has some sort of passive role.
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Shraeye: My bad about the V/LA. Fair point. eHalc, do you just not believe me or what regarding the Grujah thing?
Again, I don't think of it as defending Grujah as much as prodding yuma. Note how I did this to no one else.
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Unvote: Young Nick
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I've been rereading.
Also it's really true that I was extremely calculating as scum (I was in my second and third games, MIV and RMM1, respectively), but in a game this size there's too much content to analyze everything. I'm going to have to trust reads a bit more and look at specifics rather than the whole big picture, at least on day 1 and 2.
I know Galzria already pointed this quote out, but I don't think I fully grasped how bad it sounded.
This statement makes no sense whatsoever from a town perspective.
Like, here's the syllogism implied:
A: I have played scum in a calculating manner.
B: This game is too big for me to be calculating.
C: Therefore, I'm going to be playing this game differently.
...
this ONLY MAKES SENSE as a thing to say if Dsell is scum, guys. I think he killed Galz because Galz was onto him.
(also, I accidentally posted this in the old thread. i dunno what you wanna do about that, Robz.)
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yay, reread Frisk complete. (well, his Day1/2 posts, I haven't reviewed him in this thread yet.)
Anyways, Frisk reads town to me. IMO Town Frisk tends to have unusual ideas (ref. MVII with the get everyone to claim, MXII with the full claim over jailkeeper claim), and shares them. Scum Frisk tends to toe the line a bit more and be more abrasive. Now, maybe he's changed his scum-behavior after his run as scum over-and-over, but he certainly sounds more like town Frisk than scum Frisk to me. My general suposition here is a slight-town read.
I find cayvie's comment above interesting. Here's what I got out of Galzria-DSell interactions day2 when they were happening:
Galzria reveals the wine and says he is not suspicious of the person he passed it to, because they drank.
Galzria reveals that that person is DSell.
Galzria writes up his full cases on DSell, Voltaire, Frisk(I think?). He notes that DSell does indeed come off scummy, but that he finds "mistaken townie" to be a valid reason for it. And reemphasizes that he believes this additionally because of the wine thing.
Now, Galzria's case lead a bunch of people to vote for DSell at that time. But Galzria was holding off to write up his case on The Munch. (Note: this was around when I stopped reading the thread "live", so that's kind of where it sticks with me strongest.) Anyways, I did read the rest of the thread after the day ended, but I don't really remember any change between Galzria and DSell after this point.
Of course, maybe as cayvie said, DSell killed Galzria overnight before Galzria could change his mind...but I don't get the sense that Galzria was "onto" him. Maybe that's just semantics.
Anyways, DSell is next up on the reread. I think I'll put Young Nick next in the queue, with so many people finding him scummy. I will admit to being biased by past games, but so far as I know every offer of "kill me over this guy" has been given by a town player (Axxle in MIV and ehunt in MVI. ehunt even did it for a scum player (me at the time)) So, I'm going to need something better than that to believe that he's lynch-worthy. Huge town implies that we might not get something better...but I'd take shraeye's scummy playstyle over it, because at least some portion of players who play like that have flipped scum in the past. (also, if someone can point out a situation where scum played the "kill me over him" thing, I'd take that as evidence that it's possibly actually scummy instead of something that frequently gets town killed, but in fact is only anti-town because it gets seen as suspicious.)
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#1) Why did you not say earlier that what you knew specifically referred to people's descriptions? Just saying that "X or Y is town" doesn't add a whole lot of depth to their info if your argument isn't backed up with evidence.
#2) How did you know that the description you received specifically pertained to either shraeye or ashersky?
Just saw this directed at me as I'm catching up. So I handled this whole thing super poorly, but fortunately everyone seems to believe me for the most part, though they may (correctly) think I've been kind of an idiot. Moral: Do not reveal mostly useless yet very cryptic info whilst running a high fever.
Answer to 1: Basically I didn't want scum to know exactly what kind of info I had received.
Answer to 2: Modfirmation that it came from a pool of three specific people: cayvie, shraeye and ashersky. And after cayvie's weird ability reveal D1 there was no way it referred to her.
Can't quote verbatim obviously, and there's maybe some room for interpretation, but to me it was clear as day what this description was implying: No powers, no passive abilities, nothing weird at all, and not even ability to NK as a vanilla mafia goon. I should have let you guys in to judge for yourselves though, so apologies all around.
Now, I'm behind on this game a bit (distracted by a certain other game that's painful to talk about) but I think I'm probably willing to sheep the YoungNick wagon. I'll give a closer reread and be more involved now that that other game has ended (grrrrrrrr). This just does not feel like a D3 at all. There's still so many people here and for all the massive amounts of content people have been posting, I don't feel any really strong reads yet. Gonna work on it though. GF is out of town so lots of time for mafia this week.
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@ftl #243 -- oh, that's soon.
@Nick #245 -- I don't think it has been reasonably explained. You called out yuma to go after you, Glooble or ibg instead of Grujah. It does read as a defense. It is weird enough that I don't mind your lynch, though I am not pushing it. I need to re-read, but there is so little time. :\
@cayvie #247 -- Ugh, I remember that, and it does read scummy. Maybe I should give a (paraphrased version of) Dsell's description to see what people think? But theorel (#248) is right that Galz did not actually suspect Dsell so much.
@theorel #249 -- I think part of the reason it is suspicious is because Grujah flipped JoaT. It seems likely to me that scum would want to try to take the heat off of their PR.
@Cuzz #249 -- cayvie has not revealed any ability, unless I missed something recently. She has only stated that something bad happens if she is on a town lynch.
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Going back quite a ways...
@shraeye #145
BP = bulletproof. You were going on about how Munch wouldn't die at night anyway because of his bulletproof, but the way it worked wasn't reliable for him anyway. And in that game, no, town still had a chance if they lynched mafia because the remaining scum could have ended up killing each other.
For ways to test Munch's "I power up townies" claim, we wouldn't have had to out anyone right away, even if he was being honest. But since this is a moot point, I won't go on about it. :P
Interesting comment on our roles and descriptions. Hm.
And yes, I remember that post from Galz but - again - it was FAR from 100% certainty.
Now I'm into all the Cuzz claim stuff. Hm.
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@ eHalc, that info has to be in her PM somewhere. So it's either an active ability, passive ability, or it's in the description.
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Vote Count 3.5
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (5) -- yuma, Jotheonah, ashersky, Dsell, sparky
watno (1) -- Captain_Frisk
theorel (1) -- watno
Not Voting (10) -- O, cayvie, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7, eHaclyon, ehunt, shraeye, ftl, Axxle
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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@ eHalc, that info has to be in her PM somewhere. So it's either an active ability, passive ability, or it's in the description.
Are you talking about Cuzz? I thought Cuzz was a dude.
Actually, my role confirms that at the start of the game, there were three mostly vanilla townies (like myself), and four true vanilla townies.
OK, so deaths that align with this would be just Galzria. I suppose he would be "mostly vanilla townie". Not sure if Morgrim is included in the three he mentions. And there are four true vanilla? There are currently 19 alive, minus 4 true vanilla and 2 mostly vanilla leaves 13.
Uh, ash is basically claimed VT... and shraeye sort of semi-claimed it in the conversation that followed?
So I don't know what to make of the description matching business, but it's enough to make me want to back off of all three of Cuzz, shraeye and ash. Without that, my reads on the three are:
shraeye: actively scummy (mainly the odd behaviour wrt Munch)
Cuzz: neutral, leaning townie (too quiet, but without a particularly scummy feel; the claim out of the blue feels a bit more trustworthy)
ashersky: neutral (the main scummy thing was that really bad argument about hunting the Grujah wagon)
But the Cuzz claim is weird enough that I will reluctantly accept it.
sparky #212: Of the low-posters, I find O scummiest right now. His first post said he would be re-reading, but he hasn't posted ANY follow-up on that. His second post was an odd snide comment which I think was misdirected at me when it was meant for cayvie. I am not sure though. But content-wise, O has contributed the least today BY FAR.
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@ eHalc, that info has to be in her PM somewhere. So it's either an active ability, passive ability, or it's in the description.
Are you talking about Cuzz? I thought Cuzz was a dude.
i think he was talking about cayvie, who is i'm not sure, but she doesn't seem to care what we call her as long as it isn't offensive. I go with female because "cayvie" sounds feminine in my head, and it conveys more information than "he"
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@ eHalc, that info has to be in her PM somewhere. So it's either an active ability, passive ability, or it's in the description.
Are you talking about Cuzz? I thought Cuzz was a dude.
I'm so confused. Cuzz was talking about cayvie. Cuzz is a dude. I am Cuzz.
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@ eHalc, that info has to be in her PM somewhere. So it's either an active ability, passive ability, or it's in the description.
Are you talking about Cuzz? I thought Cuzz was a dude.
I'm so confused. Cuzz was talking about cayvie. Cuzz is a dude. I am Cuzz.
Ohhh, OK. I get it now. Whoops name mix ups.
So my understanding is that your info makes you think that the one with the description you know about is VT because the description implies that the player can't do anything. I took this to mean that the player lacked an active ability. Of course I don't know the description itself so maybe it excludes cayvie's claim too. I don't know.
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shraeye, you were the one who came up with a relatively big case on Young Nick yesterday. Why aren't you voting for him now?
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sparky #212: Of the low-posters, I find O scummiest right now. His first post said he would be re-reading, but he hasn't posted ANY follow-up on that. His second post was an odd snide comment which I think was misdirected at me when it was meant for cayvie. I am not sure though. But content-wise, O has contributed the least today BY FAR.
The thing to look up here is Voltaire's interactions with Grujah. Hang on.
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O probably hasn't paid much attention because we haven't put anyone at L-1 yet. :)
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I'm paying as much attention as I can atm, i've read everything.
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voltaire didn't have any interactions with grujah at all. he didn't vote for grujah, but he disappeared substantially before the grujwagon started rolling, so i don't think that's very meaningful. voltaire placed a lot of suspicion on frisk, which is something i'm substantially warming up to, which also makes O look better. i think O lynch is no go lynch, at least for now. that said, if he continues lurking i think we will have to policy lynch him at some point before lylo, which is a long way away, because i really don't want to be having the same "where is O" argument at lylo.
random sidenote: voltaire's disappearance was really abrupt and doesn't feel like a ragequit or anything - i hope he is OK.
ppe: hi O
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hi. I'm trying to figure out the case on Young Nick, most specifically.
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shraeye, you were the one who came up with a relatively big case on Young Nick yesterday. Why aren't you voting for him now?
I just got back from my vacation; have a large headache so I don't feel like doing a big write up right now. I read day 2 of the following people (ashersky, jotheonah, eHalcyon, youngNick, insomniac, axxle) while on the airplane.
These three have towny vibes from in varying degrees: ashersky, eHalcyon, insomniac
these three were looking suspicious to varying degrees: youngNick, axxle, joth
I'll present more cases tomorrow. Please nobody drop any hammers until I can type up this analysis i've done on a few players.
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So I had two thoughts regarding things in general while I was on the airplane. First is that I'm really sure mafia killed Eevee night 1, and Munch killed O. The reason mafia killed Eevee is likely the "good thing" that he said would happen if he was on a scum-lynch. The reason Munch killed O was the same reason there was a small "Decline of Forum Mafia" moment.
I recall a lot of people speculating who was which kill, and some said that Glooble was the mafia-kill because he was fighting with Grujah. I think the above explanation is a lot cleaner, because I can't figure out why Munch would have killed Eevee. It would be interesting to look back and see who speculated correctly, and who speculated incorrectly.
Second thought:
Scum would probably have been more silent at the end of Day 2. As we were lynching what could have been a town guy to them (because all I for sure know that mafia players knew was that Munch wasn't on their side), and they are already under a bit of pressure because of the correct lynch Day1, I think they would have avoided lynching "town" loudly, especially if another town member is willing to be the "frontman" of the Munch lynch (I definitely was the loudest at the end, but maybe eHalcyon/Galz were the "frontmen" for the longest part of that day). Being the loud guy on the wagon seems to be a towny place to me.
Ok, now I'm compiling my analyses.
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which are based almost entirely on Day 2 posts.
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So I had two thoughts regarding things in general while I was on the airplane. First is that I'm really sure mafia killed Eevee night 1, and Munch killed O. The reason mafia killed Eevee is likely the "good thing" that he said would happen if he was on a scum-lynch. The reason Munch killed O was the same reason there was a small "Decline of Forum Mafia" moment.
I recall a lot of people speculating who was which kill, and some said that Glooble was the mafia-kill because he was fighting with Grujah. I think the above explanation is a lot cleaner, because I can't figure out why Munch would have killed Eevee. It would be interesting to look back and see who speculated correctly, and who speculated incorrectly.
Second thought:
Scum would probably have been more silent at the end of Day 2. As we were lynching what could have been a town guy to them (because all I for sure know that mafia players knew was that Munch wasn't on their side), and they are already under a bit of pressure because of the correct lynch Day1, I think they would have avoided lynching "town" loudly, especially if another town member is willing to be the "frontman" of the Munch lynch (I definitely was the loudest at the end, but maybe eHalcyon/Galz were the "frontmen" for the longest part of that day). Being the loud guy on the wagon seems to be a towny place to me.
Ok, now I'm compiling my analyses.
Not sure if first thought is relevant to the game. For end-game interest though, sure. :P
I disagree with your second thought. During day 2, it was unclear if we had one or two scum factions. Munch was acting very scummy. Leading his lynch is a neutral thing IMO. In general, this thought mainly serves to boost YOU up, and you adamantly believed that Munch was SK. That's certainly something scum would push.
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on eHalcyon:
I think more likely is that Glooble was shot, either by a vig or by scum trying to hit other scum. Gloob was a lurker, after all.
I don't think there is any evidence of multiple scum teams right now. It looks like there were two shots fired (since O and Gloob are connected), and the second death could be vig or SK, not necessarily another team.
Conspiracy theory would be that there were indeed more shots, and that two (or more) landed on Glooble and O. O was one-shot doc; in his position, I would definitely have used that power on Glooble. Given his lurking (and notorious reputation as scum in previous games), he would absolutely be an attractive target for vig or scumhunting scum.
He jumps out of the gates trying to connect a lot of dots I don't think that Glooble would have been the target for either side, as he's probably right that O doctored Glooble. I would have if the main guy he had been fighting with was the scum we lynched, as Glooble sounds like a likely night-target. eHalcyon is probably spot on that there was only one scum faction +vig/SK (which we now know is SK). I think this sounds like genuine speculation that gets close to truth, as opposed to being fake-speculation coming from an informed scumplayer.
I'm reading the last portion of the day, when Grujah's wagon really got rolling.
eHalcyon was one of the first people to jump into analyzing in seriousness. That also feels very town, as I would expect a scum player to BS for as long as possible at the start of the day and wait for other people to jump into serious-mode and follow, instead of leading the switch into serious-mode as eHalc did.
Just remembered -- Eevee claimed it would be good for him to be behind a scum lynch. And he was part of Grujah's lynch... so I wonder if he got anything out of it. Maybe that was why Eevee was killed -- scum didn't want Eevee getting a chance to use whatever good thing he got?
When I was rereading, this is the reason that stuck out to me as to why Eevee was the mafia-kill. This reads as slightly suspicious for being the only one to publicly recall this, as which townies power up under what circumstances is definitely something the mafia would pay attention to. Also, you bring up in this post Eevee's major reads. It's hard to take any of his reads as accurate, as he was just an uninformed townie, and could easily have had terrible reads. It's possible that he was killed due to his reads getting close, or because his reads were super off and suspicion would flip to people other than mafia, but I think it's more likely that he was killed due to his power than because of any of his reads.
At this point, I'm reading through a lot of his next posts and nothing in particular is popping out as particularly scummy. He keeps putting down his thoughts on a lot of issues, and on some of them I disagree with him (Munch defending Grujah), and sometimes it frustrates me when I see a string of these arguments I disagree with, but the ability to say so much and not set off any alarms with me keeps pushing my read at this point townier and townier.
Exploring the interactions with confirmed townies would be a good way to go. Someone should look into that.
Likewise, someone should figure out who has been lurking.
i have a few theories as to why this day seems to be going more slowly
1) we lynched scum d1, so the scum are being extra cautious
1 is interesting. Who is lurking?
In a normal sized game, it's possible that asking for analysis like this without doing it yourself is scummish, because maybe scum would want to see someone else's interpretation of the situation and latch onto any arguments that target townies. But a combination of him saying that he's pretty busy and this game being enormous make me give him a pass on that (also because he's already done a lot of analysis of off-wagon that we can look back to)
i have a few theories as to why this day seems to be going more slowly
1) we lynched scum d1, so the scum are being extra cautious
1 is interesting. Who is lurking?
I like that he's always looking out for arguments without substance. Not letting bad arguments get by make scum have to really work hard if they want to push false cases. This is definitely pro-town.
At this point he does a review of the last 3 pages, and it seems that he's focusing his serious questioning on a few people. Munch, shraeye, ashersky, yuma (a bit), cayvie (a bit). Galz, jo, sparky also show up, but with the Galz it seems eHalc is mostly agreeing, with jo he is discussing ashersky, and with sparky he seems to be either answering or asking for clarifications but not in a grilling-style. This may have something to do with how active these people were on those pages. I try to match his questioning up with his reads in this post
Townish:
cayvie -- but, she is slowly falling into a null read since it feels like she isn't contributing very much at all. Waiting for her to comment on the big cases that we have. Also off the wagon, but with an odd excuse that, if true, could very well be a scum thing anyway. Hm.
Galzria -- very thoughtful cases on multiple players.
ehunt -- he's just seemed townie to me the whole game.
Null:
ftl -- was on Gruj wagon, but somewhat late. Feels lurky.
Voltaire -- he's just been away for so long I don't remember his play much at all.
Axxle -- late on Gruj wagon, but he was the hammer VIA double vote.
shraeye -- Seems to defend Munch way too much. A few opinions that seem inconsistent (e.g. Munch not-scummy vs. ashersky no-lynch defenses of/redirections from Grujah). Nonetheless, he made several cases that I thought were quite good.
Cuzz -- I don't really remember much of anything he's done...
yuma -- on the upper end (close to town read) but I'm actually having trouble remembering his comments and positions though I know he has not been inactive.
Morgrim -- he will always be a null read to me.
Watno -- Like yuma, though more neutral than "close to town read".
Captain_Frisk -- Like watno.
Slightly scummy:
sparky -- Volt was a bit weird on day 1 and sparky's posts have just felt a little bit off to me. But this is a slight feeling only.
Insomniac -- mostly instinct here... some weird interactions and such.
jotheonah -- Morgrim-hunting when Grujah wagon was building. Did switch to Grujah in the end, but very late.
theorel -- not like him to post so little... I know he replaced into a big game, but still.
Scummy:
Dsell -- well covered, I think.
Young Nick -- off the Gruj wagon, and a comment at the time felt very much like trying to redirect attention away from Gruj.
Munch -- very well covered.
ashersky -- desire to focus attention ON the successful wagon, seems super defensive when people weren't focused on him at all.
I was surprised at this point that he had a null read on me, and that cayvie was looking super townish. From his interactions I expected him to rank both of us scummier. But, man, it is hard to organize this many reads on various people. So I think that while there could be room for suspicion, that these reads look honestly made in my opinion. Definitely this is townish behavior to put out this big list along with reasons for the read on most people (I'm frustrated by him auto-putting Morgrim in the null category though).
Here's something that eHalc picked up on that I totally missed earlier
Also, my gut suspicion of Galzria was later tempered when I remembered the whole business with the wine.
OHHHH I also JUST remembered that Eevee said he had something special that happened when he was on a scumlynch. I bet he was 100% sure of his target's alignment then. (Naive when he wasn't on a scumlynch, accurate when he was).
I'm going to park a vote: ehunt because I don't think he's getting lynched anytime soon. I think I'll just use my vote to indicate my strongest townread unless I am needed for a deadline hammer.
I am pretty sure I mentioned that about Eevee early today. But I like your theory about the semi-naive modifier.
Parking a vote on your TOWN read is just asking for terrible misinterpretations down the line. Why is your ehunt your strongest town read?
wait, whyyyy is cayvie voting for her biggest townread??? That seems like a terrible idea.
Then there was the Munch-powerclaim and whatnot. End of day 2. Also the end of my read. Along with the day 3 actions that have happened so far, I have eHalcyon as a medium town read. He's done things that have made me scratch my head and at least one thing that made me super-frustrated, but in general it looks like he's working diligently and honestly with his opinions and reads.
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Cuzz -- I'm not asking for a full claim here, but I would like to know when you received your info on ashersky/shraeye/cayvie. If it was just last night, did you also receive any info on night 1? Would that info be helpful to share? I am currently assuming that you either did not receive info on night 1 or that it is something not worth sharing, since you haven't already shared it. But I'd like confirmation from you.
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Second thought:
Scum would probably have been more silent at the end of Day 2. As we were lynching what could have been a town guy to them (because all I for sure know that mafia players knew was that Munch wasn't on their side), and they are already under a bit of pressure because of the correct lynch Day1, I think they would have avoided lynching "town" loudly, especially if another town member is willing to be the "frontman" of the Munch lynch (I definitely was the loudest at the end, but maybe eHalcyon/Galz were the "frontmen" for the longest part of that day). Being the loud guy on the wagon seems to be a towny place to me.
I disagree with your second thought. During day 2, it was unclear if we had one or two scum factions. Munch was acting very scummy. Leading his lynch is a neutral thing IMO. In general, this thought mainly serves to boost YOU up, and you adamantly believed that Munch was SK. That's certainly something scum would push.
But you said early on day 2 that you thought there was only one scumfaction, when did that change? My second point was more "I think we can find scum by seeing who was suspiciously silent while the wagon on Munch ticked down that last half of the L-(numbers)" than it was "look at meeee, I'm great, give me towncred!"
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Second thought:
Scum would probably have been more silent at the end of Day 2. As we were lynching what could have been a town guy to them (because all I for sure know that mafia players knew was that Munch wasn't on their side), and they are already under a bit of pressure because of the correct lynch Day1, I think they would have avoided lynching "town" loudly, especially if another town member is willing to be the "frontman" of the Munch lynch (I definitely was the loudest at the end, but maybe eHalcyon/Galz were the "frontmen" for the longest part of that day). Being the loud guy on the wagon seems to be a towny place to me.
I disagree with your second thought. During day 2, it was unclear if we had one or two scum factions. Munch was acting very scummy. Leading his lynch is a neutral thing IMO. In general, this thought mainly serves to boost YOU up, and you adamantly believed that Munch was SK. That's certainly something scum would push.
But you said early on day 2 that you thought there was only one scumfaction, when did that change? My second point was more "I think we can find scum by seeing who was suspiciously silent while the wagon on Munch ticked down that last half of the L-(numbers)" than it was "look at meeee, I'm great, give me towncred!"
I said there was no reason to think there were multiple scum factions, but there was also no reason to think there weren't. Moreover, my own thought on that matter was just that -- my own. There were plenty of people speculating on that possibility. Given how scummy Munch was, even Mafioso who knew Munch was not Mafia could reasonably conclude that Munch was some other scum and go after him to try to earn town cred. Of note is that you DID think there was evidence for multiple scum teams (#1557). Did your opinion change later on in the day?
While it's interesting to consider those who are "suspiciously silent" on Munch, I think going back to d1 is probably more effective. Then again, my scum read on you is based mostly on the end of d2.
On the post before that, cayvie parked her vote on her towniest read because of her d1 claim that has her avoiding all wagons so far. I don't remember if cayvie ever responded to that question I asked about ehunt though, hm.
What things have I said or done that frustrate or confuse you? I would be happy to clarify.
If it's the Grujah-Munch stuff, that's been talked to death already. I still believe your particular behaviour concerning that and the Munch lynch is among the most suspicious stuff so far in this game. Basically, your entire reaction makes so much more sense coming from Mafia than from town. The only reason I'm not pushing it further at this point is because of Cuzz's intervention.
If it's my treatment of Morgrim... what can I say? Morgrim is just impossible for me to read.
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on Joth:
I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
This is the statement that got a few people (me included) to jump on joth. I understand the sentiment of looking off-wagon, but phrasing it in terms of him "being inclined to think that there's not a lot of bussing" really feels like he's trying to discourage looking for bussers. Joth's position on Grujah's wagon looked very bus-like to me. He was giving a town-read on Grujah for a while I recall, and then at some point said that "the part of him that had a townread on Grujah was fighting with the part that wanted Day1 to be over". Boom, wiggle room. Then once the case on Grujah coming back from lurking to respond to votes gets exposed, he finally votes for Grujah.
Grujah's team probably killed Glooble, actually. There was so much 1v1 between the two of them that he would have been a pretty clear town read today. So that makes Eevee the SK or Werewolf or vig. kill, I guess.
Well this is wrong. But also, it doesn't feel like the sort of speculation that eHalc was giving on this topic. It feels like "here's something you should all believe because I certainly do". That's sort of the same tone that was in his first post, and it also reads like a scummy way to push people into the wrong viewpoint of things.
Actually, I need to go to sleep, but last thought: Do you guys think Gru's scumbuddies could have been trying to push the Morgrim wagon?
Again, same tone that gives me scumreads above. Especially interesting because I think Axxle and joth were both on the Morgrim wagon before they jumped to Grujah. Sparky and Dsell were late additions to the Morgrim wagon, and I was the only one on it for the long-haul. I think I recall Dsell and sparky catching a bit of suspicion, joth more, myself much more, but I don't recall many people giving bad reads on Axxle. This could be a true statement though. I suspect that is a pool of people that could be very saturated in scum. I expect 2, maybe even 3. Certainly doesn't put me in a good light, but I think rereads on these 5 people aren't a bad idea.
@The Munch:
Galz's argument about the posting pattern, that ftl and I sheeped, actually WAS really good. It's the kind of scumhunting we should be doing, and it laid Grujah's MO really bare. At the time I voted, I really was pretty convinced we were hitting scum, despite my town read on Grujah earlier in the day.
I can't really defend myself beyond that; I do think that I myself look pretty bad in terms of the Morg-Grujah wagons, so it seems hypocritical to accuse others of doing on purpose as scum what I stumbled into by accident as town (I guess this is what I get for being a contrarian.) That said, I do think it's a productive avenue to go down.
But this sounds like a legitimate defense. The earlier tone that was raising my hackles is gone. I may have had a significantly different read on joth if something like this was his opening post. But his first, unedited thoughts that came through after unlock just felt scumtacular.
eHalc commented that the combination of (A) my saying we should hunt the wagon today and (B) the weird circumstances of my joining the wagon (at the last minute, in prime bussing position, after having defended Grujah and voted Morgrim7) make me look pretty scummy. So I was owning that, yes, it does look that way. Kind of the opposite of being defensive I guess.
I'm pretty sure (A) was that "we should hunt *off* the wagon today." But I'm not a fan of this. I think good defenses should stand for themselves, and your defense above was good. Defending your defenses makes it seem like you're really worried people won't think you look town enough. Not a good quality.
That was an idiotic thing to say. FoS Insomniac.
I disagree taht Insomniac was saying something idiotic. (link to post and look above to see what Insom said). I can understand how you would disagree with him, but thinking somebody is wrong is not a reason to FoS. I guess I've FoS'ed somebody when I just meant to say loudly "I don't like what you're saying". I'll give you a pass on this one on the assumption that you were just strongly disagreeing with what he said.
It's just a ridiculous argument. I expect better from you. And there's something scummy about how personally you're taking the off-wagon hunt.
I don't really think Insom was taking this off-wagon hunt personally. What a weird thing to say; not a good weird.
I think you have a point, Young Nick. And I don't think anyone is about to go vote Insom - I have a town read on him if I'm honest. But bad logic does bug me.
ok, good I did get your intention with teh FoS right then.
@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.
This also looks suspicious. It seems pretty clear to me what ashersky is saying. He had been acting weird around this point, and I read joth's post as "playing dumb" trying to get ashersky to say more things so that joth can turn around and tie a bow on an ashersky case (which future posts of mine will show I think is not a good lynch). It feels like a scummy tactic to me.
jotheonah - I mentioned before that if anyone on the wagon is scum I would put jot at the top of the list. I don't think anyone has done an analysis on him, so while I won't go a Galz style one, I will take a good look at him. Early day 1 he had his votes in a couple of places and argued heavily with ehunt and galz, and posted quite a bit, but wasn't ever in the forefront (jot has a tendency in Mafia to have a lot of short posts, that is just his style, not necessarily a reflection of his alignment). He lists his top 3 as (ehunt, Watno and eHal) changing his vote from ehunt to eHal over his copping-Morgrim thing, and then goes back to Galz and then unvotes... all three of these w/o any stated reason. Jot isn't around, or isn't posting when the Grujah wagon takes off. At 7 votes he continues his argument with eHal and then votes Morgrim--competely ignoring the case on Grujah except to say, "Vote: Morgrim he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point." because he is: "participating more than usual, but with just as little content." The wagon then grows to 9 and jot says, "he part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch." and then "I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie. Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome." He then states that his top candidates are still ehunt, watno, and ehal and doesn't really think morgrim is scum, but is ok with it because "the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset." He then votes Grujah after Galz's case and puts him at L-2 and calls him buddy? Day 2: he has his "probably wasn't a whole lot of bussing in that lynch" which got a lot of heat, but potentially not enough...
Here is yuma on joth's day 1 and early day 2. What jumps out to me is him moving around his vote a lot without many stated reasons. Also that for some reason Morgrim didn't make any of his top3 scumlists, yet he was voting for Morgrim (the only possible alternative to Grujah) up until the 11th hour. And then saying that he doesn't think morgrim is really scum?? Well why were you voting for him?? This summary of joth's day 1 really paints a scummy picture.
Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior? Your vote is a lot like mine.
As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there. Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.
Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.
Nope, I think you're mafia. No hypocrisy here. The hostility, the defensiveness, the arguing that black is white in order to try to save your skin - it all reads scum to me!
Here is the case on ashersky that I saw coming from when he asked ashersky to clarify what he meant. Your cherry on the top of this case is that ashersky's "hostility, defensiveness, and arguing that black is white to save his skin" read scum. But it doesn't feel like ashersky is really in that much trouble. For better or worse, ashersky sometimes feels very hostile while he's defending himself, but I don't really see him doing the scum-acrobats that you seem to be referring to here. And at this point ashersky I think only had 4 votes, and there was 11 to lynch. That doesn't feel like he was really in hot water, just that he was getting angry that people weren't understanding him.
Ok, Munch and ash BOTH looks so scummy, but I can't imagine they're both scum, the way they're fighting. I mean, it doesn't read like a fake fight.
And I get a slightly more townish read on ashersky, i.e. his play can more easily be explained as bad town play rather than scum play.
I'm going to switch back to Vote: TheMunch. Have scumreads on both, feel a little better about the Munch lynch.
I should note, I could be talked into switching back. I don't like that two big scumreads are fighting each other like this. It tells me that I'm likely wrong about at least one of them.
In a double post where he votes for Munch, he also lays the groundwork for squirming out of it in the case that Munch flips town. That is classic hedging, making sure that you don't catch heat from a mislynch because you could always point to the fact that you were "sure you were wrong about one of them" and then continue pushing a lynch on ashersky (who is still a terrible lynch).
Now those are the last substantiative posts that Joth makes in Day 2. This is exactly the type of position that I was talking about when I thought that scum would be silent towards the end of day 2, perfectly ok with a Munch lynch but not wanting to be seen actively pushing it, but not actively trying to make sense of Munch's crazy claims to make sure that the lynch is good. He voted Munch to L-4 and then just shuts up for the rest of the day basically (he posted once to tell us Munch was at L-4, and a second time because he thought Axxle was the hammer with his double vote).
Along with a pretty suspicios day 1 that yuma outlined, your hedging with your Munch vote, your interaction with ashersky, and the tone you started day 2 with are the major reasons for a scum read. That a lot of reasons, and they add up to a solid scum read. You are scum.
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on ashersky:
Well, this is exciting. My best guess is two NKs, one on Eevee and one on either O or Glooble. Any number of other evening events could have happened.
No clue what to make of the Coppersmith.
First post of day 2, speculation on what happened. Null read here, it's obvtrue information he's providing, which is easy to do as either faction.
Vote: ashersky for proposing no lynch as the Grujah wagon began to take off.
Can I ask a question of the group?
Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?
Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right? Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information. On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.
I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets. It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.
If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.
WE LYNCHED SCUM D1 WOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, saw this coming once Grujah flipped. I will note that I was voting for a lynch, not "no-lynch" at day's end, so it wasn't like I was really pushing for it. I preferred lynching, and especially mafia! I've been in both games with D1 scum lynches now. Oh yeah!
I agree that joth trying to steer everyone away from the wagon is ultra-scummy, and will vote: joth as well. Especially since, of course, he was on the wagon, so it's a deflect away from himself.
Right out of the gates, he acknowledges that what he did looks scummy, which sounds like he's genuinely frustrated that his actions are giving us another false "scum" candidate. As I found out when I went back and did a big reread on ashersky, he had already brought up the no-lynch idea slightly before, and nobody really responded to it. So he asked the question again, it just happened to come at a really inconvenient time when the Grujah-wagon was building. But he's right that he wasn't really pushing for it and was just asking about it.
Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
This is a good point. I can off the top of my head remember that Dsell and YoungNick both were trying to actively stop the Grujah wagon (to varying degrees and at different times I feel). Who else at some point tried to discourage the wagon?
Ashersky with his no lynch idea.
It wasn't like I was pushing the idea. Just thinking it through with the group. Clearly the lynch was preferred by me (and all).
Why does the assumption that Glooble was the kill target out of the so lovers seem to be favored? Does no one think anyone would want to kill O? I think a look back at O associations would be useful.
He was away for a long time and came back with this. Again, I think this was true about the no-lynch. Interesting that he put together that there were people who would want to kill O. This is absolutely what I think happened. But it isn't scum-interesting. Just interesting.
Then I did a big reread on his day 1 stuff. (click link for specifics)
Overall, I'm getting a medium scumread here. Less suspicious than YoungNick, but still pretty suspicious.
I originally found his "I wonder what people think of me" quote pretty suspicious, but have since seen this in Eevee's past posts. Since eevee is known town, I'm starting to believe that the "why do I have no suspicion yet" post could be more out of honest curiosity than scum searching for something to say. Rereading this case, I feel like none of my points were particularly strong. My narrative for the scumminess doesn't really sound convincing to me now. Part of the reason I was likely seeing scum-stuff all over before and don't like it now, is that I have the "Cuzz giving descriptions and asher claiming VT" info now, and it's making thin evidence look less compelling.
Man, think outside the box and catch lots of flak. I will say I am decidedly unapologetic for suggesting the hint of a discussion of the thought of possibly looking at the option of maybe not lynching someone if there's no consensus on D1. As Shraeye even mentioned, the idea started before the Grujah wagon. The idea was unrelated.
Also, I did not know Grujah was mafia. A lot of folks in town seem to be working under the assumption that all the lynchers did, and they are all heroes deserving of accolades and medals. Guess what, if they knew Grujah was mafia for sure before the flip, they were also mafia.
@Galz and others: The hard, hard push by some people to keep the focus off wagon? If you were scum on the wagon to gain towncred (which we seem to hand out in buckets after being on a successful lynch), wouldn't you trade on that cred you've falsely earned by pushing cases on people off the wagon (the people who all must be scum because they didn't vote)? Remember, mafia can vote for mafia to seem town.
Again, voting for mafia does not clear you as town. Really, it doesn't. And not having voted for mafia on a D1 lynch does not make you mafia forever.
In fact, Galzria's HUGE, BOLDED statement that Grujah flipping scum clears the wagon here:
is incredibly haughty, trying to press and keep the town focused off-wagon only, and smacks of so much knowledge that we regular townies don't have. Terribly anti-town to me, and scummy. Vote: Galzria.
This was asher showing his building frustration. He echoed some thoughts I'd been feeling about how hard people were pushing to focus off wagon. I agree that most attention should have gone off-wagon, but to exclude any analysis of on-wagoners is silly. There are a lot of people in this game, so while most focus off wagon, I'd appreciate it if some also looked on-wagon. The tone of this post read as a really frustrated person who feels like he's been reading bad arguments regarding the on/off wagon debate for too long. It doesn't sound a bit scummy at all to me, though some people took it that way. His ragevote on Galz at the end was not warrented, since he had a town read on Galz, but this is the post that joth said was blatantly anti-town. I'm not sold.
I find it hilarious that everyone is focused on me and munch, since we're the of the few that are active. Everyone else, mafia and town, are just sitting back and relaxing.
On Munch, seems scummy, but no real read past what everyone else is saying about him. On cults, I have no clue. In a town this size, I'd guess there are more than two NKs available to people; maybe some chose not to shoot, or hit doc/jk targets, etc.?
I feel slightly this way today as well. It's funny how people lock onto a wagon like YoungNick's and then everything seems to steamroll from there. There are plenty of people sitting back and relaxing it seems. I realize that this game is enormously daunting, but I'd love to see more analysis of players that aren't front and center in the spotlight. Has anyone reread Cuzz? ftl? There are probably others that have slipped through the cracks.
Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma
Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye
Why are you convinced I'm scum now. Was it the end of Day2 stuff like eHalcyon? Also the town read on joth seems like it conflicts with your read on him early in the day, what changed?
There are a few pieces that still stick out as strange with ashersky, his changing reads without documented reasons, his low contribution of information on day 2, jumping at the chance to make a VT claim today despite my argument that it would be better for neither of us to explicitly claim VT at that moment (my argument came after his claim, so clearly he didn't do this despite my arguments to the contrary, I just don't think it was the best to jump at the self-preservational option). But on the whole, I still think his VT claim is probably real. While writing this up, I am getting slightly more suspicious of ashersky than I recalled from my reading summary. But that just pushes him to the low end of town. He's slight-town to neutral in my mind right now. But he is still not a good lynch right now, especially when there are some majorly scummy characters around.
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Oh, no, I missed that post. I never did answer your question.
I think ehunt was my biggest town read at the time because of the way he handled the 'town drunk' situation. He didn't have to let anyone know about it at all, and it was incredibly townie that he did.
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on Axxle:
Somebody already posted how his actions at the end of Day 1 were suspicious. He was voting for Morgrim (a possible other lynch candidate) until he switched for the hammer. But his public over-excitement to be the hammer there really sound strange to me. Like he was dancing around the issue waiting for Grujah to make any possible last minute defenses, but then when they didn't come he drops the hammer, making sure we see that he is gleeful to do it. Don't like.
Boo Grujah boo!
You would *not* have gotten lynched. It's an easy enough role to verify. At worst you would have drawn the night kill.
I think there's a good chance you're just trolling us at the moment though.
This reads a bit like a parting statement to his scumpartner, saying why Axxle dropped the hammer.
It seems to me that O was killed by a vig. We were calling people like him a vig target.
I'm sure that this is correct, but his reasons for coming to this conclusion are definitely not. Nobody called O a vig target, as cayvie was quick to call into question. Axxle then says
I dont remember anyone calling out O, but we did say that lurkers were a great target i think
Did we say that lurkers were good vig targets? I don't recall that either. So I think that O was the vig/SK target but the clear reason for that is that Munch had beef with O, and not that anybody called him a good target. It's suspicious that he figured out O was killed by vig/SK but posted a bogus reason for it. Another more reasonable reason to know this is that you know mafia targeted Eevee.
Thanks for reminding me I can do this. Just changed it to 10 posts per page to make each page less daunting... although that turns it to 155 pages!
A nothing post talking about changing # of posts per page.
I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1.
I just want to point out, this argument is terrible.
If all the scum avoid the lynch wagon, that does not magically clear those on the wagon.
Clearly ftl felt he had to bus his partner because he didn't want to clear half the town.
And now a ridiculous joke about "ftl is scum". making joke reaons why people are scum, and then not seriously following them up is not scumhunting. It's the opposite of scumhunting. It makes both you look scummy, and it makes ftl look slightly like a scumpartner that you're joking to (I think I've had a scum read on ftl before, but he's definitely one of the players who has escaped my attention filter recently).
I dont think descriptions really help determine alignment. Mine only indicates role, grujah's indicated role, I assume the same is for everyone. I dont think the wine is worth too much protection. In fact I think we should give it to eHunt, I don't want scum to be able to rolehunt.
This could make some sense, and is a reason the WIFOM may be dangerous, but I feel like it's helpful enough to town to make up for that. As eHalc and Dsell have done, they simply stated that they have town reads on eachother, no leaking of descriptions, and this stops mafia from PR hunting, except for the times that they pass, or are passed, the cup. And these times also risk them revealing their description to others. Maybe not all descriptions give the alignment clearly, but mine does, and it seemed that eHalc's did as well to Dsell.
I haven't posted much at all Day 2. I'll reread at least Day 2 and get back to you guys in a few hours.
This is true, I wonder what rereading will give us?
Correct Lynch %77.7...
I am so smrt!
Winrate: %33.3...
Doh!
Sweet, great analysis! Oh, I guess this had nothing to do with our game. maybe it was this part, where you had a scumread on me for exacly 3 minutes?
Vote: Shraeye
A quick look through shows that shraeye was never really acknowledged the Grujah wagon as it was happening. I also felt that shraeye was independently scummy yesterday. I'm happy with this vote for now.
Unvote
I just realized that scum would probably be trying to actively stop a wagon on their PR.
And then you disappear for 3 days. and come back with the same argument you made before, and an apology for not keeping up.
struggling a bit to keep up, but I still think it's a bad idea to keep the wine in the game. I do not believe revealing role information to people of unknown alignment is a protown move.
It's a small positive for Axxle that he was then working hard to analyze Munch's claim near the end of day 2. This is what I conjectured scum wouldn't want to do, but that they would rather let town do the dirty work of hammering out the details of the claim, and let town put the final votes on a non-mafia player.
I get a mild scumread off Axxle here. Not YoungNick big, not joth big. But it exists. He will certainly be a player I watch. His contribuitons on Day 2 were incredibly weak. He's doing much better on day 3, so maybe he just wasn't ready for the crazy thought-commitment that following this thread is. But the contributions he did make read mostly across the board scummish. there wasn't anything crazy-scummy and there were a few redeeming qualities, like his work with Munch's claim at the end. So end result is a mild-scum read.
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And I voted for my biggest townread because my role is frustrating! I want my vote to mean something but I don't want to vote for someone who's gonna get lynched :/
I like voting for people, a lot! But my pressure doesn't mean anything in this game. So, yeah, vote: ehunt for the reasons I said before.
I'm rereading joth because of what shraeye's been saying.
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on Insomniac:
I definitely think O was the vig kill and that the jo wagon is ridiculous.
Also shows conviction in the fact that O was the vig/SK kill and that Eevee was hit by mafia. I have already stated why this conviction 5 hours after being presented with information is suspicious. Nightkills are hard to sort out often, and it seems that only those with advanced knowledge would be certain of something like this so quickly. But there are some smart cookies out there, so I can't call this a definitive scum statement. However, it is suspicious.
I agree with eHunt's idea of what to do with the wine. I was off the wagon but I tend to not lynch people for being lurky, although I do like Galz's case.
Which Galz's case are you talking about here. Somehow I get a slight town read off this post, despite it confusing me. Can you clarify what you meant here?
@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.
A flambouyent idea, but not a terrible idea. I get a townread from Insomniac posting something like this even in the face of Munch catching heat over not looking off-wagon.
That was an idiotic thing to say. FoS Insomniac.
Personal attacks?
I just don't see why off wagon is 100% a better place to look for scum, I think scum would have had Grujah on their list because he was a popular choice and it looks more innocent, had I been scum I would have straight up voted him on day 1, after ZM2 you get soo much town credit for bussing your partner day 1 it's unreal. So I think it's a bit of a farce to suggest they wouldn't have bussed, because I think at least one of them would have, and I suspect there are multiple teams which means I suspect there to be a fairly large number of scum on the wagon.
This attitude still reads town to me. His sentiment is a natural one that I understand given that we both did ZM2 together. The early bus did get a lot of credit there.
Insomniac puts a few non-content posts down about Eevee scumhunting and ehunt's penchant for voting for Insomniac.
Sorry I haven't been here guys it's Thanksgiving weekend up here in Canada. I don't have a lot to contribute that hasn't already been said, theres a lot of people in this game still and I appreciate the work that some people have been putting into this game with rereads and cases. If I were to vote right now it would be for TheMunch but I'm going to reread day 2 either today or tomorrow.
Insom explains his lack of posting on Day 2, and this comes off as genuine apology for town not pulling his own weight and thanking the people who have been putting in effort. It's good he expresses his desire to vote for Munch, because the next time he shows up is the post after ehunt's hammer where he asks if everyone is ok with him hammering. I think that it would be an easy place for mafia to hide watching a wagon on non-mafia grow. But his expressed desire to vote for this wagon (but wanting to reread first) reads as a legitimately busy town player.
There really isn't much from Insomniac on day 2. There was one confusing post that I'd like him to clarify, but mostly I see things pointing to towny reads. I'll say he's slight town because I don't have the effort right now to go through day 1 as well. Insomniac's day 3 per se gives me a null read, so I'm ok with classifying insomniac as mild town based on just day 2 right now.
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On the Grujah wagon:
1. Ftl
8. Jotheonah
11. Axxle
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
19. Morgrim7
21. Watno
24. ehunt
I give these guys a pass for now.
Since shraeye is talking about him, I will note that jo's vote came at a time when Grujah was in some trouble, but not enough trouble that I think scum would bus. I found joth a bit scummy on day 2 after reviewing the wagon, but I recant that now.
I find shraeye's analysis of Axxle a bit more compelling, especially the "parting statement". Nonetheless, it is worth noting that he voted Gruj with a double vote. If it's a bus, that's rather bold.
Those not on the wagon:
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss) (vote on Morgrim)
5. Insomniac (vote on ashersky)
7. Dsell (vote on Morgrim)
9. Young Nick (vote on Axxle)
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire) (vote on jo)
13. Cayvie (vote on Young Nick)
14. Shraeye (vote on Morgrim)
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis) (vote on ftl)
23. Captain_Frisk (vote on O)
25. ashersky (vote on Ins)
I now believe sparky is just a little crazy, not so much scummy. Someone said he was a bit ranty... I agree.
My read on Ins is more positive now. Chalk it up to instinct. The way he has talked with others does not feel scummy to me. He has been quite lurky though -- I wish he would speak up.
Dsell has looked scummy to me but I am giving him a pass, at least for now, based on his description.
My main hesitation on Young Nick is instinct again, but this is hazy. I think he may still be the best lynch for today.
O has been lurky in a way that I can't get a read on him. FWIW, Voltaire's disappearance was likely due to work reasons (he dropped out of RMM3 due to busy-ness).
cayvie has been off wagon due to her claim, which is still hard to evaluate. She always seems townie to me. I think she did kind of push the Grujah wagon, even though she didn't vote it.
shraeye remains one of my biggest scum reads. Hesitation comes from the weird Cuzz claim.
theorel is a cool guy but he hasn't contributed like I expected he would today. Not sure what that means though.
CF has felt very "empty" to me this game. He hasn't really been contributing. Having his d1 vote on a now-confirmed townie doesn't help. The way he has thrown his vote around today is also a bit suspicious to me.
ashersky has also felt scummy, but again -- Cuzz's claim makes me hesitate.
Right now, I am comfortable with a Young Nick lynch but I think switching over to CF might be better.
In fact, I will go ahead and Vote: Captain_Frisk. If people prefer Young Nick lynch and my vote is needed to secure it before the deadline, I will switch.
On a different note, I want to put out there that I think yuma is looking really towny. I put him neutral in that d2 summary but I somehow forgot how he basically got the ball rolling on the Grujah wagon. That matters.
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And on a very different note:
I would like lots of opinions on how best to use the WIFOM today. I will not confirm my final choice, but I'm actually not sure what would be strategic.
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And on a very different note:
I would like lots of opinions on how best to use the WIFOM today. I will not confirm my final choice, but I'm actually not sure what would be strategic.
If the person who has the wine is NKed, will it leave the game? I think so. Try to avoid people you think have a high chance of dying this night. That's about all I have. It might be good to send it to someone who hasn't been analysed as much, maybe someone who is lurking somewhat. Then we can get info about them without having to dig through a very minimal amount of posts.
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And on a very different note:
I would like lots of opinions on how best to use the WIFOM today. I will not confirm my final choice, but I'm actually not sure what would be strategic.
we're still going with no drinkies, right?
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on YoungNick:
Yeah the fact that there are three votes on him is just silly.
Obviously he was a bit facetious with his comments, but cut him some slack.
YoungNick starts day 2 by asking for people to cut joth some slack. This sounds like a reasonable thing to say to anyone, but I can't help but remembering that joth reads scummy to me. So in a vaccuum, this would be a null statement, but I read it as scummy because it's defense of joth.
I understand where you guys are coming from, and it does look like [ashersky] has been hedging, but when I read his NL push, I viewed it more as asking an open-ended question than pushing for NL.
We all flirt with the idea in our Mafia-infancy, so I don't see why he should be judged more harshly for this than anyone else is. I mean, in a 20+ game, most conventional wisdom has to be at least modified, and the always-lynch-d1 logic is no exception.
If anything, I think Watno's second-on-the-wagon is more suspicious than anything else. Not that ashersky did much to defend himself at the top of p. 62..
He defends ashersky here, but when ashersky really starts getting into trouble later, YoungNick doesn't back this statement up. When I think people are all piling on somebody for a bunk reason, you bet I'm gonna yell about it (recall: Munch defending Grujah). It seems like YoungNick was afraid to give defense to somebody getting heat for a reason that YN didn't agree with, lest he get sprayed with any of the suspicion that people were aiming at ashersky.
Sorry I missed this. What I was saying is that this seemed like too easy of an excuse to jump on the wagon. I was not aware of the posting patterns of Grujah (post after someone votes him) at the time. To me, it looked like you were just hedging and voting him because he was a lurker. Why any of the others? Because Grujah had provided some content over the course of the day. ibgtennis had not. I had provided minimal.
I can understand Grujah over Glooble (they were contributing equal amounts in my mind; it makes sense that you can see their butting heads as one being scum and the other not), but I still think it would have made more sense to lynch me or ibgtennis or O.
tl;dr: If you are going to lynch a lurker, then lynch one of the true lurkers. ibgtennis is the only one I see who is still posting way, way too infrequently.
YN finally comes around to answering eHalcyon's question. He says that Grujah had provided some content over the course of day 1, but I don't recall anything that stood out to me as serious contribution from him. Maybe to somebody who is paying particular attention to how his partners are doing this stood out, but I didn't see it.
@yuma: I was stating what I was thinking at the time, even if it was incorrect. I was never saying you had to change your vote, just that it looked curious to me. You justified it. It makes sense. He ended up being scum. I am not concerned. End of story.
I, despite my play-style, am for a Lynch-All-Lurkers meta. I am not saying that is where one always will find scum (though sometimes we do), but rather just a way to make the scum-lurk no longer feasible.
I am just about ready to hear from ibtennis who has 8 serious posts from the start of the game. I don't question that his/her V/LA are real, but would appreciate a) advanced warning so we aren't left hanging like we currently are and b) more contribution and posts so we know he (she?) is alive when (s)he isn't V/LA.
Here is a post that I think eHalcyon asked me where I pulled it from when I made a case on YoungNick during day 2. Here he is focusing on "Lynch-all-lurkers" and saying that he doesn't want the scumlurkto be feasible. Later on this is clarified to say that he's only for lynching the hardest lurkers. I'm pretty sure that lynch all lurkers really is a policy that's pushing for ALL the lurkers. Not just the ones lurking the hardest. If you want to make the scum-lurk not feasible, you need to stamp out all lurking. If you let medium lurk go by because big lurk exists, then scum can just slightly lurk and get by.
I disagree with those who say Munch doesn't look bad. Dude has been hedging like crazy, which is a newb-tell and a scum-tell. I understand we have other things to look at, but hedging deserves proper investigation.
My feelings towards Munch are barely enough to warrant a vote. I still would like to hear more from ashersky. It's that simple.
YoungNick makes a contradictory position on Munch. He starts out by saying that the Munch has been hedging like crazy and wants the guy investigated becuse he is committing this scumtell. But then 7 hours later he says that his feelings towards Munch are barely enough to warrant a vote. I don't understand what changed here. Both before this post he is suspicious of Munch and says that he is "looking at Munch because of the hedging I have seen there", but here we see him inexplicably backing off. Perhaps he forgot what his fake-reads were?
Here's my big case on YoungNick from before. Some things pop out even more on reread. The first argument I had on him was a post where he wanted to lynch eevee for knowing about a cultist thing. I find this especially suspicious now that I'm sure that Eevee was the mafia-kill. There was the bit about him saying that he wasn't rereading, and then saying that he was, and then saying that he didn't reread due to time. This feels a bit like what I was talking about above regarding the Munch reads. Again at the end of the day, he promises "significant analysis coming tonight" and then this analysis never comes.
Quick note: my Lynch-all-Lurkers encourages lynching the worst lurkers first. I thought Grujah was lurking less than others, which is why I would have been more inclined to vote for others before him. I was never trying to derail a lynch, just prodding yuma a bit to expand on his thoughts. It worked. I laid off. And everyone was better for it.
Will post later.
Here's YN explaining that his Lynch-all-lurkers idea that he wants to use to stamp outthe scum lurk only applies to people who are lurking the most, apparently. That just feels like a silly after the fact defense of something that you can't figure out how to defend against. Grujah was lurking and was scum. Therefore he was doing a scum-lurk. Just because other people were lurking more doesn't make him a worse lynch. If we are to discourage lurking we need to discourage all lurking, not just themost extreme.
At this point no wagon are a done deal. I think that Munch had 4 votes, asher had 3, Dsell had 3. YoungNick's next contribution is to answer cayvie's question about cults. He assumes it's a cult since there's no role like Neighborizer. Then recants when somebody points out that Neighborizer was onthe role list. And that is it. No comment at all on the Munch wagon as it was taking off. That is a position I think scum would want to be in. Ashersky and Dsell looked like candidates (both I have slight town reads on now) and Munch (who was SK) was also a candidate. So seeing that the three candidates we not mafia, YoungNick didn't add anything that could stir the pot and mess up another good day for mafia. Just sat back and let town do the work.
So in summary YoungNick is looking super scummy. He is consistently promising rereads and posts that don't show up; he flipped his read on the Munch within 7 hours with no explanation or discernible reason; he has a really inconsistent idea of what it means to lynch-all-lurkers in order to prevent scumlurking; wanted to kill eevee; was unwilling to really vocally and unflinchingly defend ashersky's NL push, and simply said a small one-time reason why the NL wasn't terribly scummy, thereby avoiding suspicion of being such a vocal defender of ashersky. This is a really long rap-sheet.
But I'm surprised that at the end of writing this and joth's, that I felt much more sure that joth is scum. Or at least that joth is scummier. I'm 100% convinced on joth, and maybe 95% convinced about YoungNick. so I will
Vote: jotheonah
and also am entirely willing to lynch YoungNick if nobody else agrees that Joth is the scummiest.
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And on a very different note:
I would like lots of opinions on how best to use the WIFOM today. I will not confirm my final choice, but I'm actually not sure what would be strategic.
I would suggest that since we have caught some scum already, use it on someone you believe and hope is town (but maybe not totally obvtown) to try to confirm them. I don't think we need to use the win as a scum-catching tool just yet if we can mostly-confirm a few more people first.
Confirmed (or even mostly-confirmed) townies are really bad for the mafia in the endgame. This is even truer since we already lynched the SK.
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I'm 100% convinced on joth, and maybe 95% convinced about YoungNick.
If you are town (and I believe you are), then I totally don't understand the way you think.
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I'm 100% convinced on joth, and maybe 95% convinced about YoungNick.
If you are town (and I believe you are), then I totally don't understand the way you think.
This leaves me too curious not to bite; what is strange about the way I think?
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Like, if you are town, how on earth could you be 100% sure that someone is scum unless you have modconfirmation? Not a rolefish. eHal is my strongest townread and I'd give him somewhere around a 5-10% chance of being mafia, and I'm considering him totally obvtown. My strongest scumreads (which are admittedly not strong right now) I'd say are like 60-70% chance of being mafia, max.
Nobody is that confident as town. And yet I believe you're town.
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shraeye makes a good case. it's also just completely wrong. and its wrongness stems from a total lack of understanding of my playstyle. I think that the people who "get me" are not getting scum reads from the things shraeye is getting scumreads from. But, for the sake of thoroughness, I will go through his post and give a more specific rebuttal.
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Yeah, I'm not going to lie, when Shraeye lays it all out on the table like that it looks bad. I always promise to "post later." Then life happens. I change my reads, mainly because I don't check what I previously posted before saying something new. I read the thread's new posts and if I have a viewpoint, I express it. I am not one to re-read and do case-work. That is just not how I spend my free time. I will never do the type of thing Shraeye does. It is not how I define "fun."
As for my lynching-lurkers thing: I say we lynch those lurking the most first. The most important ones are the ones who never post. It's that simple. So I am not saying "never lynch Grujah." I am saying, "let's lynch ibgtennis (theorel) or O first, and if Grujah or others still lurk, them next."
As for the theMunch thing, I waffled. I wanted to vote for him but didn't have the balls to. It makes me look bad, yes, but it is the truth.
As for the end of theMunch lynch... I just wasn't present. I was barely online at all when things got really heated and by the time I got to the game, the day was already over.
Anyway, I acknowledge I look bad, but I am telling you the honest truth.
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on Joth:
I'm inclined to think there was not a whole lot of bussing in that lynch. Obviously not all 13 Grujah voters are clear, but the smart money is probably to start hunting off-wagon.
This is the statement that got a few people (me included) to jump on joth. I understand the sentiment of looking off-wagon, but phrasing it in terms of him "being inclined to think that there's not a lot of bussing" really feels like he's trying to discourage looking for bussers. Joth's position on Grujah's wagon looked very bus-like to me. He was giving a town-read on Grujah for a while I recall, and then at some point said that "the part of him that had a townread on Grujah was fighting with the part that wanted Day 1 to be over". Boom, wiggle room. Then once the case on Grujah coming back from lurking to respond to votes gets exposed, he finally votes for Grujah.
This phrasing stuff, for instance. Just the way I talk. Just the way I've always talked in all the games, where Iv'e always been town. If I say "I'm inclined to think" and "Obviously not all the voers are clear," those are ways of making it clear that I'm NOT trying to direct the town. Owning it as my personal opinion, that people are free to disagree with. The other thing (on Grujah) was just being upfront about my thought process as it happens. It's something I do because it's hard to fake when you're scum and you're making up a fake thought process.
Grujah's team probably killed Glooble, actually. There was so much 1v1 between the two of them that he would have been a pretty clear town read today. So that makes Eevee the SK or Werewolf or vig. kill, I guess.
Well this is wrong. But also, it doesn't feel like the sort of speculation that eHalc was giving on this topic. It feels like "here's something you should all believe because I certainly do". That's sort of the same tone that was in his first post, and it also reads like a scummy way to push people into the wrong viewpoint of things.
Sorry, why is this wrong/ how do you know it's wrong? Again, I don't see myself making effort there to present my opinion s anything other than my own. You're reading that in, but it's not in the text. I even say "I guess".
Actually, I need to go to sleep, but last thought: Do you guys think Gru's scumbuddies could have been trying to push the Morgrim wagon?
Again, same tone that gives me scumreads above. Especially interesting because I think Axxle and joth were both on the Morgrim wagon before they jumped to Grujah. Sparky and Dsell were late additions to the Morgrim wagon, and I was the only one on it for the long-haul. I think I recall Dsell and sparky catching a bit of suspicion, joth more, myself much more, but I don't recall many people giving bad reads on Axxle. This could be a true statement though. I suspect that is a pool of people that could be very saturated in scum. I expect 2, maybe even 3. Certainly doesn't put me in a good light, but I think rereads on these 5 people aren't a bad idea.
And this time I even phrase it as a question! How could I possibly be more tentative and personal in my opinions than that? And yet you continue to accuse me of a scummy tone that tries to direct town. All I can say is, it's all in your head.
@The Munch:
Galz's argument about the posting pattern, that ftl and I sheeped, actually WAS really good. It's the kind of scumhunting we should be doing, and it laid Grujah's MO really bare. At the time I voted, I really was pretty convinced we were hitting scum, despite my town read on Grujah earlier in the day.
I can't really defend myself beyond that; I do think that I myself look pretty bad in terms of the Morg-Grujah wagons, so it seems hypocritical to accuse others of doing on purpose as scum what I stumbled into by accident as town (I guess this is what I get for being a contrarian.) That said, I do think it's a productive avenue to go down.
But this sounds like a legitimate defense. The earlier tone that was raising my hackles is gone. I may have had a significantly different read on joth if something like this was his opening post. But his first, unedited thoughts that came through after unlock just felt scumtacular.
It's all unedited.
eHalc commented that the combination of (A) my saying we should hunt the wagon today and (B) the weird circumstances of my joining the wagon (at the last minute, in prime bussing position, after having defended Grujah and voted Morgrim7) make me look pretty scummy. So I was owning that, yes, it does look that way. Kind of the opposite of being defensive I guess.
I'm pretty sure (A) was that "we should hunt *off* the wagon today." But I'm not a fan of this. I think good defenses should stand for themselves, and your defense above was good. Defending your defenses makes it seem like you're really worried people won't think you look town enough. Not a good quality.
this was a reply to a specific comment. You make it sound like it was out of the blue. But in fact, I was re-defending my defense from a fresh assault.
That was an idiotic thing to say. FoS Insomniac.
I disagree taht Insomniac was saying something idiotic. (link to post and look above to see what Insom said). I can understand how you would disagree with him, but thinking somebody is wrong is not a reason to FoS. I guess I've FoS'ed somebody when I just meant to say loudly "I don't like what you're saying". I'll give you a pass on this one on the assumption that you were just strongly disagreeing with what he said.
It's just a ridiculous argument. I expect better from you. And there's something scummy about how personally you're taking the off-wagon hunt.
I don't really think Insom was taking this off-wagon hunt personally. What a weird thing to say; not a good weird.
I think you have a point, Young Nick. And I don't think anyone is about to go vote Insom - I have a town read on him if I'm honest. But bad logic does bug me.
ok, good I did get your intention with teh FoS right then.
This is the Insom quote:
@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.
He's saying we shouldn't look for any scum off the wagon BECAUSE at least one person off the wagon isn't scum.
say A=scum and B=off the wagon.
eHalc says, Some B are A.
Insom says, Insom = B and Insom =/= A, therefore no B are A.
It's really really bad logic, like textbook bad logic. That's what I was referring to. But later when I calmed down I realized that outside of that I had a town read on Insom, and bad logic was a stupid reason to FoS him, so I recanted.
@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought. As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.
This also looks suspicious. It seems pretty clear to me what ashersky is saying. He had been acting weird around this point, and I read joth's post as "playing dumb" trying to get ashersky to say more things so that joth can turn around and tie a bow on an ashersky case (which future posts of mine will show I think is not a good lynch). It feels like a scummy tactic to me.
This is just really weak, shraeye. Asking for clarification is a scumtell? I literally could not parse that sentence. I don't know how you could read my comments as anything but that.
jotheonah - I mentioned before that if anyone on the wagon is scum I would put jot at the top of the list. I don't think anyone has done an analysis on him, so while I won't go a Galz style one, I will take a good look at him. Early day 1 he had his votes in a couple of places and argued heavily with ehunt and galz, and posted quite a bit, but wasn't ever in the forefront (jot has a tendency in Mafia to have a lot of short posts, that is just his style, not necessarily a reflection of his alignment). He lists his top 3 as (ehunt, Watno and eHal) changing his vote from ehunt to eHal over his copping-Morgrim thing, and then goes back to Galz and then unvotes... all three of these w/o any stated reason. Jot isn't around, or isn't posting when the Grujah wagon takes off. At 7 votes he continues his argument with eHal and then votes Morgrim--competely ignoring the case on Grujah except to say, "Vote: Morgrim he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point." because he is: "participating more than usual, but with just as little content." The wagon then grows to 9 and jot says, "he part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch." and then "I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie. Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome." He then states that his top candidates are still ehunt, watno, and ehal and doesn't really think morgrim is scum, but is ok with it because "the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset." He then votes Grujah after Galz's case and puts him at L-2 and calls him buddy? Day 2: he has his "probably wasn't a whole lot of bussing in that lynch" which got a lot of heat, but potentially not enough...
Here is yuma on joth's day 1 and early day 2. What jumps out to me is him moving around his vote a lot without many stated reasons. Also that for some reason Morgrim didn't make any of his top3 scumlists, yet he was voting for Morgrim (the only possible alternative to Grujah) up until the 11th hour. And then saying that he doesn't think morgrim is really scum?? Well why were you voting for him?? This summary of joth's day 1 really paints a scummy picture.
Morgrim is unpredictable and hard to read. He's a decent policy lynch when you have nothing else. I didn't think Gru was scum. Obviously I was wrong. As for my vote moving a lot, yep. That's how I play as town.
Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior? Your vote is a lot like mine.
As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there. Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.
Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.
Nope, I think you're mafia. No hypocrisy here. The hostility, the defensiveness, the arguing that black is white in order to try to save your skin - it all reads scum to me!
Here is the case on ashersky that I saw coming from when he asked ashersky to clarify what he meant. Your cherry on the top of this case is that ashersky's "hostility, defensiveness, and arguing that black is white to save his skin" read scum. But it doesn't feel like ashersky is really in that much trouble. For better or worse, ashersky sometimes feels very hostile while he's defending himself, but I don't really see him doing the scum-acrobats that you seem to be referring to here. And at this point ashersky I think only had 4 votes, and there was 11 to lynch. That doesn't feel like he was really in hot water, just that he was getting angry that people weren't understanding him.
He was getting quite defensive without many votes on him. That's exactly the point. That's a scumtell, and one that's worked well often. And it was downright ridiculous that he was FoSsing Galzria at that point when Galzria was SO OBVTOWN for his position in the Grujah lynch.
Ok, Munch and ash BOTH looks so scummy, but I can't imagine they're both scum, the way they're fighting. I mean, it doesn't read like a fake fight.
And I get a slightly more townish read on ashersky, i.e. his play can more easily be explained as bad town play rather than scum play.
I'm going to switch back to Vote: TheMunch. Have scumreads on both, feel a little better about the Munch lynch.
I should note, I could be talked into switching back. I don't like that two big scumreads are fighting each other like this. It tells me that I'm likely wrong about at least one of them.
In a double post where he votes for Munch, he also lays the groundwork for squirming out of it in the case that Munch flips town. That is classic hedging, making sure that you don't catch heat from a mislynch because you could always point to the fact that you were "sure you were wrong about one of them" and then continue pushing a lynch on ashersky (who is still a terrible lynch).
Now those are the last substantiative posts that Joth makes in Day 2. This is exactly the type of position that I was talking about when I thought that scum would be silent towards the end of day 2, perfectly ok with a Munch lynch but not wanting to be seen actively pushing it, but not actively trying to make sense of Munch's crazy claims to make sure that the lynch is good. He voted Munch to L-4 and then just shuts up for the rest of the day basically (he posted once to tell us Munch was at L-4, and a second time because he thought Axxle was the hammer with his double vote).
Along with a pretty suspicios day 1 that yuma outlined, your hedging with your Munch vote, your interaction with ashersky, and the tone you started day 2 with are the major reasons for a scum read. That a lot of reasons, and they add up to a solid scum read. You are scum.
So anyway, nice try, thank you for playing, I am town. Your case looked impressive because it was long and used a lot of quotes, but now that I've critically looked at it, it's very weak, based on a lot of highly subjective reads and some downright deceptive misreads of my early posts. I almost want to vote you on the badness of this case that has brought you to 100% certainty of my towniness.
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@shraeye
In response to your long analysis of me, mostly fine with it, but did I say I'm sure you are scum? Don't recall that.
I'd be impressed with your mafia dedication if you are mafia and doing all these analyses.
PPE @ Joth
Your response was kinda harsh. Not nice always sounds scummy.
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If this is so, I apologize. I believe our focus should be on validity of arguments, however, and not on niceness. Scum players are often nice and town players are often mean.
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This. Game. Is. So. Slow. Oh, lord. Anyway...
My claim is What I got from mod. I don't know about anybodies claims; I post what I know.
We still need Morgrim to check in here and respond to something. Not like it matters much, I think, he'll probably just sheep the wagon, 'tis what he does. Didn't he like claim VT or something?
Respond to what? Actually, I'm saving my vote for the moment. Yes, I am a bonus VT.
Sorry I've been lurking, we have like 5 birthdays in the family over the course of about 2 weeks.
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If this is so, I apologize. I believe our focus should be on validity of arguments, however, and not on niceness. Scum players are often nice and town players are often mean.
Definitely agree on that last line. See: Shraeye in every other game so far.
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Funny, joth and YoungNick defend themselves in completely different ways. Joth aims to viciously tear holes in shraeye's points and YoungNick gives more of an apologetic emotional appeal. Joth's comes off as more believable on the surface, but I know I tend to sound a bit more like Nick when I'm defending myself as town.
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@shraeye ill go look at the post and figure out what I meant again myself at the current moment I am not sure.
@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
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Funny, joth and YoungNick defend themselves in completely different ways. Joth aims to viciously tear holes in shraeye's points and YoungNick gives more of an apologetic emotional appeal. Joth's comes off as more believable on the surface, but I know I tend to sound a bit more like Nick when I'm defending myself as town.
OK, I'm turning into Galzria...
We have opposite reads on YN. I don't like YN's "I know I look really bad here." I know that when there is heat on me, I tend to think I am obvtown and anybody who doesn't see it is scum or woefully underprepared/hasn't read carefully enough*. It seems like a scum thing to think that you're in trouble. O said something a lot like this at the beginning of day IV in MVIII and I remember thinking (from the QT) that it was a weird thing to say as he didn't look that bad from my perspective. I think it is the telltale heart.
*exception: in MIX on day one after Insom counterclaimed me, I agreed with the "why would someone second-fake-claim doctor?!" logic, and thought I was likely hosed, although I still yelled about it a lot and tried to explain who the scum were instead of just saying "gee, this looks bad for me." But I don't think YN is in such a situation.
just remembered that somebody didnt like references to old games. then looked it up, and it was themunch. word.
vote: YoungNick
as for jotheonah - i really don't know what scum jotheonah looks like in spite of his "everyone who's played before knows this isn't how scum jo acts" style. eh. i'm giving him at least one or two more days of a pass for being on gruj-wagon. it's hard to see jo as the kind of guy who buses. i think of him as more likely to flip out and chainsaw, especially since gruj was a powerrole scum.
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Can we try to softdeadline for Monday night? That gives us three days if there's a catastrophe. Or is Monday night too close to the weekend.
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I'm down with Monday night. As usual - there will be little weekend posting. This weekend is the Bronx Zoo.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
With my suggestion you get more people who fully trust you which is always a good thing, and then that person can believe Dsell etc, expands a group of obvtown to you.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
(assuming for the purpose of this advice-giving that you are town so that my brain doesn't explode; if you are scum you are going to ignore my advice anyway!)
If you give the wine to a mafia-aligned player who has an implicating description, they're probably going to NK you, then pass the wine to a scumbuddy (if they think they are not at risk of being lynched any time soon) or to me (if they think they are going to get lynched anyway and just want to get rid of the wine). If you give the wine to someone scummy who has a non-implicating or, worse, misleadingly positive description, they're going to be very happy, and that's going to be very anti-town.
So I strongly recommend the "give it to someone who seems town and expand the circle of trust" strategy.
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pitfall with our wine strategy:
suppose person x is a PR townie, whose description sounds scummy. if person x's description gets revealed, person x has to make a very non-credible post-claim. on the other hand, if person x pre-announces that his description is going to sound anti-town, then scum is tipped off that person x is a power role. not sure what to do about this, except to hope that no townies have highly scummy descriptions. . .
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eHalc, the lynch deadline is Thursday, so pretty soon. The claims basically come down to Cuzz claiming that Ash is vt. I don't want to lynch any of those four people right now, and I suppose I'm ok with a young nick lynch.
This is strange. The lynch deadline is not Thursday, unless I'm crazy confused. Are you trying to push us into hectic mode already? Are you trying to make us feel like YoungNick is the only viable lynch right now?
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Vote Count 3.6
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (6) -- yuma, Jotheonah, ashersky, Dsell, sparky, ehunt
watno (1) -- Captain_Frisk
theorel (1) -- watno
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (1) -- eHalcyon
Jotheonah (1) -- shraeye
Not Voting (6) -- O, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7, ftl, Axxle
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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Aha, I see it is thursday, but it is next Thursday. One whole week to go, so there's no pressure right now. The soft deadline on Monday sounds good to me.
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Overly defensive plus it's rvs
I was explicitely asked to respond by sparky, so I did
rvs on Day 3 what?
I thought my insight into shraeye was actually worth looking into considering he was already receiving a lot of heat. Remember that I haven't been here the whole time so I cannot recall everything scummy that he's done. I don't have the time to read most of the walls of text in this game >_<
If *I'm* going to wagon-vote on Cuzz as you said, it would have been towards the end of the day. Attracting attention like that as scum is something I tried not to do. To try to fly under the radar more in my scum games I didn't vote unless I was sure that they would be a good lynch candidate. I've been all over the place today. I'm testing the field, trying to get reactions. What's so bad about that? I don't like to attempt to pressure others as scum, because I know that it'll attract attention to myself, as it is now apparently. Plus I wasn't in the smartest mood that post remember that lol
Again I don't know Watno's behavior D1, so I can't provide analysis there. thank you eHunt for providing some synopsis.
Young Nick I can definitely get behind. But I like garnering information as well, i.e. by attempting to start potential wagons and see where they go. Interesting so far. I'm not sure what to make of the only other vote so far being partly-rvs.
Wow, this reads really scummy to me. First part is essentially "When I'm scum I play totally differently", which I don't think is a good argument to make. If you're aware that your playstyle as scum is distinguishable from your town play style, it's probable you will try to change and emulate your town play style when you become scum.
The last part is "I'm starting wagons and see if people hop on", which just sounds so random.
...alright sure. let's go down this road.
VOTE: Young Nick
and then he just jumps on a wagon, putting Nick at L-2 (after saying earlier "If *I'm* going to wagon-vote on Cuzz as you said, it would have been towards the end of the day.") Why act differently with this wagon?
eHalc, the lynch deadline is Thursday, so pretty soon. The claims basically come down to Cuzz claiming that Ash is vt. I don't want to lynch any of those four people right now, and I suppose I'm ok with a young nick lynch.
I panicked a bit when I read this, but the deadline is actually on Thursday in a week.
theorel actually had took some stances in his last post (#2248. I would still like him to tell us wether he wether he believes Cuzz claim though.
I don't agree with most points in shraeye's case on joth in #2272, especially the thing about his interactions with ashersky. I also agree with joth that most of it just sounds like his style rather than scummy. The last bit about him voing for Much and then disappearing makes sense though
Regarding shraeyes post about ashersky (#2273): The second quote you have from ashersky reads scummy to me, not townish. Also his earlier mentioning of no-lynch wasn't really a suggestion, but just a mentioning. I'd also like to point out that according to Cuzz' post #2249, i think it's still possible that ashersky is scum even if Cuzz indeeed has his orrect description. Grujah's description didn't say in any way that he was scum either.
Regarding what shraeye says about Axxle in #2275 i agree and think it's suspicious that he hardly took any stances in those posts.
I also don't think his double-vote hammer on Grujah doesn't make him particularily towny for me as eHalc suggests in #2278. The lynch was pretty much a done deal at that point (we had the soft-deadline set up too)
cayvie, I don't think it's a good idea if you vote for your townreads. Can't you just not vote at all? It's confusing and i think it might be possible (but not likely, but still more likely than those votes having a benefit), that your votes have some bad side-effect you're not telling us about.
I mostly agree with shraeyes #2282 on Nick.
Because for the reasons above, theorel is more likely to be town now.
Then there's the scummy post by sparky (also above)+ his strange case on me. Voltgloss didn't have much content before being replaced, sparky voted Morgrim when the Grujah wagon was going off. On day 2 he kept saying that he was still rereading, but commented on recent posts all the time.
Overall, this makes me vote sparky
I think the wine should be given to a player you have a slight townread on, but aren't sure about, which balances between avoiding the danger of giving it to scum who then kills you or looks towny and actually getting new information from it.
I'd prefer the soft deadline to be on Tuesday, since i will be V/LA for Essen the next 3 days. It would be great if you wouldn't end the day before I'm back.
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Overall, this makes me vote sparky
I certainly understand this vote and sparky is my number two candidate to lynch right now--check out my analysis on him above--but I am curious to hear your thoughts on Young Nick and whether or not you think sparky is a better lynch target than him and why.
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Oh, and if I also agree with Watno that cayvie's voting for her biggest town reads has potentially bad, unknown implications. I know that I would not want her to vote for me if I was her biggest town read. Cayvie is there a reason for your voting beyond just liking to vote? Perhaps you could express your votes to show how you feel about someone by cavoteyie: ____?
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Overall, this makes me vote sparky
I certainly understand this vote and sparky is my number two candidate to lynch right now--check out my analysis on him above--but I am curious to hear your thoughts on Young Nick and whether or not you think sparky is a better lynch target than him and why.
Huh, sparky is one of the people that has largely avoided my radar. If I can find free time, maybe he's a good person to take a reread on. I'm still good with lynching jotheonah or YoungNick, Axxle is also somebody I'm suspicious of.
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Oh, and if I also agree with Watno that cayvie's voting for her biggest town reads has potentially bad, unknown implications. I know that I would not want her to vote for me if I was her biggest town read. Cayvie is there a reason for your voting beyond just liking to vote? Perhaps you could express your votes to show how you feel about someone by cavoteyie: ____?
alright jesus, scum have probably figured this out anyway:
i have a night action
i have to use it on whoever i am voting for at day's end.
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i sense a bit of OMGUS
Wow, this reads really scummy to me. First part is essentially "When I'm scum I play totally differently", which I don't think is a good argument to make. If you're aware that your playstyle as scum is distinguishable from your town play style, it's probable you will try to change and emulate your town play style when you become scum.
The last part is "I'm starting wagons and see if people hop on", which just sounds so random.
Well there's a good reason for me saying that when I'm scum I play differently: I'm honest, guess why. I realize that's not a good argument either, but it's hard to convince you people in these games. My play this game HAS been different than in the past imo, I'm being more aggressive with my reads. For your second to last sentence, I'll try to keep that in mind next time I'm scum ;)
You haven't played with me yet though, so my argument is even more pointless against you. Your last sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense though, I will say that. Why is it bad to start wagons against potential scum? Heck, the reason why I died in MIX is because yuma built a wagon on me for the hell of it, he didn't even care at first whether or not I was scum, and I ended up being scum. It's random yes, but it will give us results, better than just sitting around and doing nothing.
...alright sure. let's go down this road.
VOTE: Young Nick
and then he just jumps on a wagon, putting Nick at L-2 (after saying earlier "If *I'm* going to wagon-vote on Cuzz as you said, it would have been towards the end of the day.") Why act differently with this wagon?
...act differently? I jumped on Cuzz, and then I jump on YN. What's different? We're not really at the end of the day yet, so you can scratch that argument. And besides, I meant that if I was SCUM, I would have wagon-voted at the end of the day. Are you just trying to find ways to put me down because I'm easy to take down?? That's what it feels like to me. For the time being though I'll leave my vote on YN though.
On day 2 he kept saying that he was still rereading, but commented on recent posts all the time.
I gave up on the reread, too much. Real life triumphs. I don't need to reread though, Grujah in MIX is evidence for that. I'm doing just fine.
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Oh, and if I also agree with Watno that cayvie's voting for her biggest town reads has potentially bad, unknown implications. I know that I would not want her to vote for me if I was her biggest town read. Cayvie is there a reason for your voting beyond just liking to vote? Perhaps you could express your votes to show how you feel about someone by cavoteyie: ____?
alright jesus, scum have probably figured this out anyway:
i have a night action
i have to use it on whoever i am voting for at day's end.
Why would scum have figured it out? I myself had no clue.
Night 1 you ended on Young Nick. Night 2 on ehunt. Is there anything you or your targets can reveal that would help us? Is it even true, then, that you were voting for your biggest town reads, or just people you wanted to target?
Obviously only answer if you think it is helpful to town.
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eHalc: Do you want me to comment on whether or not I was influenced by cayvie's vote on me?
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unvote as there is thinking to be done, sorry.
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eHalc: Do you want me to comment on whether or not I was influenced by cayvie's vote on me?
This is a touchy area. It may be more pro-town to reveal. Or it might be better to keep silent. Use your best judgement, both of you.
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Why would scum have figured it out? I myself had no clue.
Night 1 you ended on Young Nick. Night 2 on ehunt. Is there anything you or your targets can reveal that would help us? Is it even true, then, that you were voting for your biggest town reads, or just people you wanted to target?
Obviously only answer if you think it is helpful to town.
day 1, young nick was not my biggest town read (never said he was, either). ehunt was and still is.
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Question: What is the town-motivated reason for announcing that if the wine is given to you it will be dumped or whatever? It seems like it just ensured that it WILL be lost once scum grab it, for the slight benefit of not having townies have a possibility of choosing you.
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Question: What is the town-motivated reason for announcing that if the wine is given to you it will be dumped or whatever? It seems like it just ensured that it WILL be lost once scum grab it, for the slight benefit of not having townies have a possibility of choosing you.
...
and since we're having it public who gets the wine, that would immediately out the person who does so as scum.
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Hey everybody,
I've requested Robz replace me out of the game. I knew I didn't want to join during sign-ups, I deceived myself that I wanted to play a little bit because I was following along day2...but I was wrong. I was only following along because I wanted something to do while I waited for MXII to restart. In reality, the size of this game just makes it entirely not fun for me. I'm avoiding the site because of it, and only trying to participate out of a sense of obligation.
If you want to know why I ultimately decided to place out, you can read the next paragraph. It sums up my frustrations with the game being this large. And why I realized that ultimately it's just the starting-size that matters. If you don't care, skip to the end of the post. Really, only read this if you wanted to try to talk me out of replacing out.
I don't like to do this, but really I just shouldn't have joined. Anyways, I'll try to stick around and do things until a solution is found, but I'm not sure exactly what those contributions will look like. At this point, my only desire is to move the game along and hope things get better...but really shraeye's massive 6-person analysis just helped me see that ultimately things never get better in a 25-person game. day1 is always there, even if I don't go back and read it myself. Even if I basically didn't contribute until we dropped to 13 players, I still wouldn't actually enjoy the game, because too much goes on. 13 players is manageable because it's RVS and nothing is really going on. Then it drops to 11-or-so, and the game becomes manageable, and analysis can be applied. Here, it's just pointless arguments and giant cases which boil down to, "he said this one thing, that sounded scummy." (actually I can't verify that, because I didn't even read shraeye's cases. I can't force myself to read them)
So, anyways pity-party over. Sorry to do this to everyone.
Okay, well, as long as I'm still in the game, I'm going to skim stuff, not read large posts, and skip entire pages worth of stuff. I'll probably play it about like I did when reading along. Which is to say, I'll catch glimpses and build scum-reads off of them. I'll vote: Captain_Frisk. eHalcyon's vote is there for some reason, and I'm pretty sure eHalcyon is town.
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Ha, I made the same request to robz a few weeks back. I told him I'd suck it up if he wanted me to...and here I am.
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I mean, the game is definitely overwhelming, but kudos for not just breaking rules to get mod killed.
Maybe blitz deadlines for a few days would help.
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Question: What is the town-motivated reason for announcing that if the wine is given to you it will be dumped or whatever? It seems like it just ensured that it WILL be lost once scum grab it, for the slight benefit of not having townies have a possibility of choosing you.
At the time I announced, I wasn't completely sure what the transfer rules for the wine were, so I tried to be vague in case there were unforeseen negative consequences to exposing, but after Galzria explained the wine and other folks guessed about me, there wasn't really any reason to hide it. There is also, as I mentioned, a separate, usually negative, consequence in the event that a town power role gives me the wine (I involuntarily "blab" the power role and it is mod-confirmed to town) and so the other reason to disclose was that I wanted to prevent that.
Anyway, I think this is foolproof. The theory is, suppose person B is a townie who is holding the bottle of wine, person S is scum, and person E is ehunt. B gives the bottle to S. If S kills B and gives me the bottle, I'll tell town that S is scum. If S kills me and gives me the bottle (not sure if that's even possible) then B is still around to tell town that S is scum. S can't silence us both. Worst case scenario is that S gets rid of the bottle and gets insta-lynched, which is really no worse than what happens in an ordinary game after an inspector announcing a positive result on scum (the inspector gets nightkilled).
I think that the more dangerous scenario with the bottle has nothing to do with my role; it's that the bottle can create false positives, or at least, "huh?" situations, like if we saw Grujah's description, for instance.
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Unfortunately, I doubt that further replacements can be made to this game. I suppose I will ask around, but we made just have to have a modkill here.
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Lekkit - just limp through like me. Letting yourself be modkilled is anti-your teams win conditions - and thus anti fun for other players.
2 kills per day * 2 weeks / day, and we'll be down to a manageable number in about 2 months!
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Unfortunately, I doubt that further replacements can be made to this game. I suppose I will ask around, but we made just have to have a modkill here.
so there will be no IBGTheorelzria?
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2 kills per day * 2 weeks / day, and we'll be down to a manageable number in about 2 months!
I say we soft-deadline each day and semi-blitz this thing. Who's up for a lynch before lunch?
Vote: Captain_Frisk
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2 kills per day * 2 weeks / day, and we'll be down to a manageable number in about 2 months!
I say we soft-deadline each day and semi-blitz this thing. Who's up for a lynch before lunch?
Vote: Captain_Frisk
Yes, but if we're going to go after lurkers who don't want to play.
Vote: Lekkit
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Sure, let's make this go faster. I'm still perfectly willing to vote YoungNick, this looks feasible.
Vote: YoungNick
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Can someone summarize the YN case in a paragraph or so?
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So in summary YoungNick is looking super scummy. He is consistently promising rereads and posts that don't show up; he flipped his read on the Munch within 7 hours with no explanation or discernible reason; he has a really inconsistent idea of what it means to lynch-all-lurkers in order to prevent scumlurking; wanted to kill eevee; was unwilling to really vocally and unflinchingly defend ashersky's NL push when it was frequently attacked despite YN believing that asher was not scummy for it (thereby avoiding suspicion of being such a vocal defender of ashersky). This is a really long rap-sheet.
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That's pretty much pulled from my summary of my analysis on him, with a small edit for clarity. There's also the time when he asked for lurkers other than Grujah to be lynched first, when the Grujah wagon was at about 8 votes (I think that's the right number).
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Vote: Young Nick
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2 kills per day * 2 weeks / day, and we'll be down to a manageable number in about 2 months!
I say we soft-deadline each day and semi-blitz this thing. Who's up for a lynch before lunch?
Vote: Captain_Frisk
Yes, but if we're going to go after lurkers who don't want to play.
Vote: Lekkit
Lekkit is not, and has never been, a participant in this game.
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2 kills per day * 2 weeks / day, and we'll be down to a manageable number in about 2 months!
I say we soft-deadline each day and semi-blitz this thing. Who's up for a lynch before lunch?
Vote: Captain_Frisk
Yes, but if we're going to go after lurkers who don't want to play.
Vote: Lekkit
Lekkit is not, and has never been, a participant in this game.
theorel / lekkit... whatever. Both analytical lurkers.
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I really kind of wonder if ehunt is scum, and receiving the wine would make him out himself. But I think his position on the Gruj wagon I'd good and I have had a townie read on him for most of the game.
Nick, since you are nearly dead, it might be good for you to reveal anything you know. What do you think, Cayvie? Why the town read on him d1? I think you said you have a scum read on him now?
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I really kind of wonder if ehunt is scum, and receiving the wine would make him out himself. But I think his position on the Gruj wagon I'd good and I have had a townie read on him for most of the game.
Nick, since you are nearly dead, it might be good for you to reveal anything you know. What do you think, Cayvie? Why the town read on him d1? I think you said you have a scum read on him now?
Pretty sure Galz said he knew there was someone that would get rid of all the wine if it was given to them.
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I really kind of wonder if ehunt is scum, and receiving the wine would make him out himself. But I think his position on the Gruj wagon I'd good and I have had a townie read on him for most of the game.
Nick, since you are nearly dead, it might be good for you to reveal anything you know. What do you think, Cayvie? Why the town read on him d1? I think you said you have a scum read on him now?
if town is about to lynch me, then instead, the wine-bearer can give me the wine, which will disprove this particular conspiracy theory, but won't prove that i'm town (just that i wasn't lying about this issue), at the cost of the wine being gone forever, which probably isn't worth it.
as for my position on the gruj-wagon - bear in mind that it's because i thought glooble had the wine!
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I really kind of wonder if ehunt is scum, and receiving the wine would make him out himself. But I think his position on the Gruj wagon I'd good and I have had a townie read on him for most of the game.
Nick, since you are nearly dead, it might be good for you to reveal anything you know. What do you think, Cayvie? Why the town read on him d1? I think you said you have a scum read on him now?
Pretty sure Galz said he knew there was someone that would get rid of all the wine if it was given to them.
no, it was weirder than that, the timeline goes like this:
--> i detected glooble "breadcrumbing" the wine and made the public post saying "don't give me the item, i will cause it to go away" which was cryptic, but which i thought glooble would understand
--> day one ended
--> early day two, galzria posts about the wine. then he jokingly says "but don't give it to ehunt," apparently in reference to MVI but not realizing that the wine was what i was talking about in my cryptic post
--> cayvie and dsell put two and two together
--> galzria is like "oh duh, that was what ehunt was talking about"
--> i confirm
i remember because i thought it was really weird that galzria had not realized that i was referring to the bottle of wine in my D1 cryptic post (even though my cryptic post was directed at glooble and not him, i still thought it would be obvious) and this in turn made me prone to conspiracy theories that galzria had killed glooble (which i ultimately rejected, not because i 100% didn't believe them, but because i thought scumgalzria was doomed if this was actually the case -- something i expanded on at some point on day two)
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I really kind of wonder if ehunt is scum, and receiving the wine would make him out himself. But I think his position on the Gruj wagon I'd good and I have had a townie read on him for most of the game.
Nick, since you are nearly dead, it might be good for you to reveal anything you know. What do you think, Cayvie? Why the town read on him d1? I think you said you have a scum read on him now?
Whoops, misread cayvie's earlier post.
OK, I just want to hear from Nick then.
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I really kind of wonder if ehunt is scum, and receiving the wine would make him out himself. But I think his position on the Gruj wagon I'd good and I have had a townie read on him for most of the game.
Nick, since you are nearly dead, it might be good for you to reveal anything you know. What do you think, Cayvie? Why the town read on him d1? I think you said you have a scum read on him now?
if town is about to lynch me, then instead, the wine-bearer can give me the wine, which will disprove this particular conspiracy theory, but won't prove that i'm town (just that i wasn't lying about this issue), at the cost of the wine being gone forever, which probably isn't worth it.
as for my position on the gruj-wagon - bear in mind that it's because i thought glooble had the wine!
Well I still think it looks good for you. Gruj was scum PR. If you were his partner, I doubt you would have jumped on him so early. I mean, maybe it was to be consistent with your claim, but that would be ballsy for scum.
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So in summary YoungNick is looking super scummy. He is consistently promising rereads and posts that don't show up; he flipped his read on the Munch within 7 hours with no explanation or discernible reason; he has a really inconsistent idea of what it means to lynch-all-lurkers in order to prevent scumlurking; wanted to kill eevee; was unwilling to really vocally and unflinchingly defend ashersky's NL push when it was frequently attacked despite YN believing that asher was not scummy for it (thereby avoiding suspicion of being such a vocal defender of ashersky). This is a really long rap-sheet.
I promise rereads and don't follow up: True. I am not alone in doing this. Real life gets in the way.
I flipped my read on theMunch: No, I still found him scummy. Just a bit less so.
I don't have an inconsistent idea of lynch-all-lurkers. I want to lynch those who lurk the most first.
I had about one post regarding Eevee. It was one of my very first thoughts in the game, coming in a week later. I was overwhelmed.
I defended ashersky's NL thought once and never really felt the need to say much more beyond that. I had voiced my opinion. I defended him on this one point. You are interpreting it as if I was super-buddying up to him. I was just saying people should chill out about it.
And shraeye is correct about me regarding Grujah except that I was specifically questioning yuma's vote. No one else's.
Reread my posts and you will see it is more me being misinformed than me trying to derail the Grujah lynch.
I have to run to class. Don't lynch until I can respond, please.
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My claim: I have a weak, non-VT town role: I am a card cop. I choose one person a night and Robz tells me what their card was. I have two results so far. I don't think it tells us that much, to be honest. I later can reveal the results if town thinks that this is best. I won't be able to respond for a few hours, though.
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My claim: I have a weak, non-VT town role: I am a card cop. I choose one person a night and Robz tells me what their card was. I have two results so far. I don't think it tells us that much, to be honest. I later can reveal the results if town thinks that this is best. I won't be able to respond for a few hours, though.
Credibility dictates you claim targets at least
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i will treat anyone who hammers YN as scum, as his claim can easily be confirmed (not the town part, but the card-cop part), without giving away too much info.
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namely, he tells us who he investigated and, say, what expansions each of their cards are from, or the second letter of the card or the cost maybe is better in case the expansions give something away. then those people can confirm that he's not lying.
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Even if he's telling the truth - that doesn't imply town.
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Even if he's telling the truth - that doesn't imply town.
agreed, i figure he's almost certainly telling the truth (since it's so verifiable) and i don't know how much to up his towniness quotient from knowing he's telling the truth, but i still want more time.
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Okay, so given my new play-style. I will vote: young nick...pretty sure that's not the hammer. Let's just get this game over with :)
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i believe he's at L-2, so axxle could hammer but shouldn't because i want to talk out this card thing a bit. also please bear in mind the remote risk of morgrim if you put him at L-1.
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i believe he's at L-2, so axxle could hammer but shouldn't because i want to talk out this card thing a bit. also please bear in mind the remote risk of morgrim if you put him at L-1.
Thats a risk but Morgrim hasn't been hammer happy this game.
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I'm happy to unvote also if it makes everyone feel more comfortable.
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Vote Count 3.7
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (7) -- yuma, ashersky, Dsell, sparky, shraeye, Captain_Frisk, theorel
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (2) -- eHalcyon, Cuzz
sparky (1) -- watno
Not Voting (6) -- O, Morgrim7, ftl, Axxle, ehunt, jotheonah
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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I am finding cayvie's claim very odd, but I don't know how to discuss it without rolefishing.
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Lekkit - just limp through like me. Letting yourself be modkilled is anti-your teams win conditions - and thus anti fun for other players.
2 kills per day * 2 weeks / day, and we'll be down to a manageable number in about 2 months!
Ugh, the apathy defense.
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To be clear, it might not have been meant as a defense, but it is a logical explanation against the reasons for which I voted you. Which you haven't even responded to, directly at least.
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To be clear, it might not have been meant as a defense, but it is a logical explanation against the reasons for which I voted you. Which you haven't even responded to, directly at least.
Want to know why? I don't care.
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The first night I investigated Glooble. He obviously can not verify this. I would say maybe O could because they were lovers, but this is O-2, so I would imagine using O-1's information is off-limits. I will say that it is not the card that was found.
Night two I put in for Dsell's card. The result is a card that starts with a P. I will not say more at this time (so as to not reveal the card) but imagine Dsell can confirm this. Also, I believe my description makes me clearly town. Whoever has the wine (Dsell) could give me the wine and then see my description. This fails if the Mafia kill him tonight, but if they don't I think that he would confirm me as town.
The thing is that no matter who gets the wine, if Dsell is the NK, then the recipient looks scummy.
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To be clear, it might not have been meant as a defense, but it is a logical explanation against the reasons for which I voted you. Which you haven't even responded to, directly at least.
Want to know why? I don't care.
Yeah, I know. It's a defense against which I cannot argue. Ugh.
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To be clear, it might not have been meant as a defense, but it is a logical explanation against the reasons for which I voted you. Which you haven't even responded to, directly at least.
Want to know why? I don't care.
Yeah, I know. It's a defense against which I cannot argue. Ugh.
I feel your pain, I really do. The last time I tried a reread of this thread, it took 2 hours, required serious skimming for 25% of it, and I didn't get anything much out of it because there were so many voices. That was a long time ago. A reread today would probably take 4 hours.
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The first night I investigated Glooble. He obviously can not verify this. I would say maybe O could because they were lovers, but this is O-2, so I would imagine using O-1's information is off-limits. I will say that it is not the card that was found.
Night two I put in for Dsell's card. The result is a card that starts with a P. I will not say more at this time (so as to not reveal the card) but imagine Dsell can confirm this. Also, I believe my description makes me clearly town. Whoever has the wine (Dsell) could give me the wine and then see my description. This fails if the Mafia kill him tonight, but if they don't I think that he would confirm me as town.
The thing is that no matter who gets the wine, if Dsell is the NK, then the recipient looks scummy.
Dsell doesn't have the wine anymore; I do. If I die, the recipient does look scummy, except nobody knows who the recipient is unless I announce it in advance. I can't announce it in advance because then scum could just kill the recipient. Or they could kill me and frame the recipient, if the recipient was town, which means that if I announce it, the recipient no longer looks scummy if I die.
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The first night I investigated Glooble. He obviously can not verify this. I would say maybe O could because they were lovers, but this is O-2, so I would imagine using O-1's information is off-limits. I will say that it is not the card that was found.
Night two I put in for Dsell's card. The result is a card that starts with a P. I will not say more at this time (so as to not reveal the card) but imagine Dsell can confirm this. Also, I believe my description makes me clearly town. Whoever has the wine (Dsell) could give me the wine and then see my description. This fails if the Mafia kill him tonight, but if they don't I think that he would confirm me as town.
The thing is that no matter who gets the wine, if Dsell is the NK, then the recipient looks scummy.
Yeah, I'm going to have to point out that if you are asking for the wine, the better mafia play would be to kill you and remove it from the game. I like that you thought about what happens if the giver is killed, but forgot about including the fake possibility that your scumbuddies would kill you. It really sells me on my YoungNick vote.
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To be clear, it might not have been meant as a defense, but it is a logical explanation against the reasons for which I voted you. Which you haven't even responded to, directly at least.
Want to know why? I don't care.
Yeah, I know. It's a defense against which I cannot argue. Ugh.
I feel your pain, I really do. The last time I tried a reread of this thread, it took 2 hours, required serious skimming for 25% of it, and I didn't get anything much out of it because there were so many voices. That was a long time ago. A reread today would probably take 4 hours.
I'm not really doing full re-reads at all because, yeah, there is too much to go through. But if you are townie and you're following along, you should at least have some instincts as to who is scummy. And you could voice those instincts, and maybe selectively re-read those players (via ctrl+F on the print screen).
Point out things that look weird as they appear.
Comment on current issues (e.g. the two recent claims by cayvie and Nick).
Heck, if you are otherwise going to check out and do nothing at all, you could at least give us any info you might have from any source (known at the start from role PM, known from night action, received from someone else's night action, whatever).
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Heck, if you are otherwise going to check out and do nothing at all, you could at least give us any info you might have from any source (known at the start from role PM, known from night action, received from someone else's night action, whatever).
That sounds like role fishing!
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Heck, if you are otherwise going to check out and do nothing at all, you could at least give us any info you might have from any source (known at the start from role PM, known from night action, received from someone else's night action, whatever).
That sounds like role fishing!
I tried to make it vague enough so it wouldn't be.
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Heck, if you are otherwise going to check out and do nothing at all, you could at least give us any info you might have from any source (known at the start from role PM, known from night action, received from someone else's night action, whatever).
That sounds like role fishing!
I tried to make it vague enough so it wouldn't be.
I'm offended that you think that if I had information to release that was pro town I would hold it back.
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That is, without knowing the source for your info, we have no insight into your role. Like, you know Bob is a townie? Maybe you're a cop. Or maybe Bob has a power that made him be mod-confirmed townie to you. Or maybe you're masons. Or maybe someone else entirely is a Cop-mailman who sent you a letter with that info.
The point of the entire post was, though, that just mentally checking out of the game is so very anti-town. You can still do a lot without devoting an inordinate amount of time and effort.
PPE: given that you don't care, I don't see why you would be offended. If you are actually offended, I take it to mean that you do care, to some degree.
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That is, without knowing the source for your info, we have no insight into your role. Like, you know Bob is a townie? Maybe you're a cop. Or maybe Bob has a power that made him be mod-confirmed townie to you. Or maybe you're masons. Or maybe someone else entirely is a Cop-mailman who sent you a letter with that info.
The point of the entire post was, though, that just mentally checking out of the game is so very anti-town. You can still do a lot without devoting an inordinate amount of time and effort.
PPE: given that you don't care, I don't see why you would be offended. If you are actually offended, I take it to mean that you do care, to some degree.
I'm not fully checked out, clearly I'm still reading - but I did ask to place out and received the basic response of: there's really nobody else. I obviously don't really want to be lynched, but I'm not about to go and give you my reads on the other players. Someone who cares seems to think young nick is scummy, it looked plausible to me - and here we go!
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That is, without knowing the source for your info, we have no insight into your role. Like, you know Bob is a townie? Maybe you're a cop. Or maybe Bob has a power that made him be mod-confirmed townie to you. Or maybe you're masons. Or maybe someone else entirely is a Cop-mailman who sent you a letter with that info.
The point of the entire post was, though, that just mentally checking out of the game is so very anti-town. You can still do a lot without devoting an inordinate amount of time and effort.
PPE: given that you don't care, I don't see why you would be offended. If you are actually offended, I take it to mean that you do care, to some degree.
I'm not fully checked out, clearly I'm still reading - but I did ask to place out and received the basic response of: there's really nobody else. I obviously don't really want to be lynched, but I'm not about to go and give you my reads on the other players. Someone who cares seems to think young nick is scummy, it looked plausible to me - and here we go!
Why not? If you are still reading, you should have reads on players. Full re-reads aren't necessary.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
cayvie, was this just a lie to explain why you would be avoiding the lynch?
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That is, without knowing the source for your info, we have no insight into your role. Like, you know Bob is a townie? Maybe you're a cop. Or maybe Bob has a power that made him be mod-confirmed townie to you. Or maybe you're masons. Or maybe someone else entirely is a Cop-mailman who sent you a letter with that info.
The point of the entire post was, though, that just mentally checking out of the game is so very anti-town. You can still do a lot without devoting an inordinate amount of time and effort.
PPE: given that you don't care, I don't see why you would be offended. If you are actually offended, I take it to mean that you do care, to some degree.
I'm not fully checked out, clearly I'm still reading - but I did ask to place out and received the basic response of: there's really nobody else. I obviously don't really want to be lynched, but I'm not about to go and give you my reads on the other players. Someone who cares seems to think young nick is scummy, it looked plausible to me - and here we go!
Why not? If you are still reading, you should have reads on players. Full re-reads aren't necessary.
I guess I suck at this.
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I guess I suck at this.
I am not a fan of apathetic, defeatist CF. :-\
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I guess I suck at this.
I am not a fan of apathetic, defeatist CF. :-\
Meh?
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I guess I suck at this.
I am not a fan of apathetic, defeatist CF. :-\
Meh?
Booooo.
We need some other people to talk.
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That is, without knowing the source for your info, we have no insight into your role. Like, you know Bob is a townie? Maybe you're a cop. Or maybe Bob has a power that made him be mod-confirmed townie to you. Or maybe you're masons. Or maybe someone else entirely is a Cop-mailman who sent you a letter with that info.
The point of the entire post was, though, that just mentally checking out of the game is so very anti-town. You can still do a lot without devoting an inordinate amount of time and effort.
PPE: given that you don't care, I don't see why you would be offended. If you are actually offended, I take it to mean that you do care, to some degree.
I'm not fully checked out, clearly I'm still reading - but I did ask to place out and received the basic response of: there's really nobody else. I obviously don't really want to be lynched, but I'm not about to go and give you my reads on the other players. Someone who cares seems to think young nick is scummy, it looked plausible to me - and here we go!
Why not? If you are still reading, you should have reads on players. Full re-reads aren't necessary.
I guess I suck at this.
Actually - i should probably clarify a bit here. As scum (in other games obviously) - i have forgotten who my own scum buddies were when re-reading. I might react to an individual message or something, but having the overall picture of a specific individuals behavior in a game has never been easy for me - without re-reading that is - which I'm just flat out not interested in doing here.
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I kind of agree. At this point rereads are really hard to do. the only reason I got through 6 was taht I focused on Day 2 only, and had 4+ hours on an airplane to kill. Even then, I spent 3 hours at home doing the writeups. That's absurd. I don't fault people for being hunchy right now.
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The first night I investigated Glooble. He obviously can not verify this. I would say maybe O could because they were lovers, but this is O-2, so I would imagine using O-1's information is off-limits. I will say that it is not the card that was found.
Night two I put in for Dsell's card. The result is a card that starts with a P. I will not say more at this time (so as to not reveal the card) but imagine Dsell can confirm this. Also, I believe my description makes me clearly town. Whoever has the wine (Dsell) could give me the wine and then see my description. This fails if the Mafia kill him tonight, but if they don't I think that he would confirm me as town.
The thing is that no matter who gets the wine, if Dsell is the NK, then the recipient looks scummy.
Why Glooble?
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I've fallen behind on this thread. Yesterday was hectic in an unmentionable thread, but I'm gonna catch up here now.
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ehunt: After his feuding with Grujah, I was curious if it had been a major ploy for distancing. Also, given that the game was so big, I figured two scum factions were very possible. He just seemed a bit iffy.
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ehunt: After his feuding with Grujah, I was curious if it had been a major ploy for distancing. Also, given that the game was so big, I figured two scum factions were very possible. He just seemed a bit iffy.
For the record I am 90% sure you're a card-reader and nowhere near that sure you're town.
Do you have any information about what the cards mean? You don't have to say the information, just say whether or not you have it.
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I have no concrete information. I have a few theories. For example, I have reason to believe that the Coppersmith card belonged to Eevee. However there is no certainty there.
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K, so I am finding myself agreeing with some of Shraeye's cases, even if they're hard to read this late at night and even though I find his certainty off-putting.
I'm finding Young Nick, Jo, Sparky, and O scummiest. The last two particularly because they've been lurky. Sparky not so badly, but his posts seem a bit scummy and a bit similar to how he posted in MXII, where he was scum.
I think my vote is on Young Nick and I think I'm ok leaving it there. It would really be between Jo and YN but YN was off the Grujah wagon (though I'm pretty sure Jo was super late), and off wagon's still gonna be a good place to look for scum.
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i believe he's at L-2, so axxle could hammer but shouldn't because i want to talk out this card thing a bit. also please bear in mind the remote risk of morgrim if you put him at L-1.
Thats a risk but Morgrim hasn't been hammer happy this game.
No, I'm not. My role doesn't allow me to hammer. :(
Anyway, I do want my voice to be heard, so I'm gonna Vote: Young Nick right now. Young Nick, you shouldn't pressure people to confirm things about their roles.
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i believe he's at L-2, so axxle could hammer but shouldn't because i want to talk out this card thing a bit. also please bear in mind the remote risk of morgrim if you put him at L-1.
Thats a risk but Morgrim hasn't been hammer happy this game.
No, I'm not. My role doesn't allow me to hammer. :(
Anyway, I do want my voice to be heard, so I'm gonna Vote: Young Nick right now. Young Nick, you shouldn't pressure people to confirm things about their roles.
So that's L-2 again. Axxle can hammer, right? Are we ready for night yet?
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i believe he's at L-2, so axxle could hammer but shouldn't because i want to talk out this card thing a bit. also please bear in mind the remote risk of morgrim if you put him at L-1.
Thats a risk but Morgrim hasn't been hammer happy this game.
No, I'm not. My role doesn't allow me to hammer. :(
Anyway, I do want my voice to be heard, so I'm gonna Vote: Young Nick right now. Young Nick, you shouldn't pressure people to confirm things about their roles.
Well I am giving Dsell the option to. It is better than autorevealing Dsell's card without giving him a say in the matter. Which I still will do if he doesn't respond and I get to L-1 because town deserves to know his card.
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
cayvie, was this just a lie to explain why you would be avoiding the lynch?
well.. it's not a lie per se, but it is deliberately misleading
it is bad for me to be voting on a townie lynch, as i don't get to use my power at night.
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Has this game really already over a month long? Wow...
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Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
cayvie, was this just a lie to explain why you would be avoiding the lynch?
well.. it's not a lie per se, but it is deliberately misleading
it is bad for me to be voting on a townie lynch, as i don't get to use my power at night.
This is suspiciously confusing. How is "not being able to use your power at night" something that is "particularly bad for you"?
How would being the hammer on Munch have been a horrific idea?? That sounds like somethign stronger than simply not being able to use your power at night.
Hammer, right?
Nope. Thats 10. CAYVIE HAMMER!
nope! though if you're town, that's an absolutely horrific suggestion.
deadline's in a week.
Or were you just suggesting that we use the rest of our week to talk and talk even though
yeah.... i fully endorse a TheMunch lynch at this point.
And while I'm talking about you, I recall a question that I don't think I answered yet
I'm kind of curious whether people count me as being on the Grujah wagon or not.
Absolutely not. You were not on that wagon.
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i believe he's at L-2, so axxle could hammer but shouldn't because i want to talk out this card thing a bit. also please bear in mind the remote risk of morgrim if you put him at L-1.
Thats a risk but Morgrim hasn't been hammer happy this game.
No, I'm not. My role doesn't allow me to hammer. :(
Anyway, I do want my voice to be heard, so I'm gonna Vote: Young Nick right now. Young Nick, you shouldn't pressure people to confirm things about their roles.
Well I am giving Dsell the option to. It is better than autorevealing Dsell's card without giving him a say in the matter. Which I still will do if he doesn't respond and I get to L-1 because town deserves to know his card.
agreed that morgrim's argument is ridiculous here, but i don't understand your last sentence. what does town gain by knowing his card? why doesn't scum also gain?
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i believe he's at L-2, so axxle could hammer but shouldn't because i want to talk out this card thing a bit. also please bear in mind the remote risk of morgrim if you put him at L-1.
Thats a risk but Morgrim hasn't been hammer happy this game.
No, I'm not. My role doesn't allow me to hammer. :(
Anyway, I do want my voice to be heard, so I'm gonna Vote: Young Nick right now. Young Nick, you shouldn't pressure people to confirm things about their roles.
No they should just give away all of their information freely like you do... Knowing that you aren't able to hammer might be a insignificant and minor detail now, but could be more important down the road...
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Young Nick is telling the truth about my card, it does indeed start with a P. I would rather not have it revealed because I do not think it really helps anyone but scum. Because of this I also find it somewhat likely that YN's role is, in fact, a scum role.
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Young Nick is telling the truth about my card, it does indeed start with a P. I would rather not have it revealed because I do not think it really helps anyone but scum. Because of this I also find it somewhat likely that YN's role is, in fact, a scum role.
I'm working with a subset of three here (My card, the Night1 drop of Coppersmith, and Munch's card Jester). I know that two of them are in the same expansion. This also happens to be an expansion that has two card names from the title of this game. Sooooo here's a crazy conspiracy theory. I'm going to say that almost all cards are from Intrigue. But the Serial Killer's was not. Now would a cop that can only find certain roles (including the SK) be a scum role or a town role? I'm super leaning towards scumrole.
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Young Nick is telling the truth about my card, it does indeed start with a P. I would rather not have it revealed because I do not think it really helps anyone but scum. Because of this I also find it somewhat likely that YN's role is, in fact, a scum role.
I'm working with a subset of three here (My card, the Night1 drop of Coppersmith, and Munch's card Jester). I know that two of them are in the same expansion. This also happens to be an expansion that has two card names from the title of this game. Sooooo here's a crazy conspiracy theory. I'm going to say that almost all cards are from Intrigue. But the Serial Killer's was not. Now would a cop that can only find certain roles (including the SK) be a scum role or a town role? I'm super leaning towards scumrole.
ok, folks.... I know I'm the one who said we shouldn't share card names... BUT .... my card is also intrigue. what if it's as simple as town = intrigue? in that case the theory is that robz randomly reveals the card of one of the dead and coppersmith wasn't grujah's (my previous working theory was that robz reveals the lynched person's card but for some reason doesn't say it was the lynched person's card). i don't want to massclaim - but if you're town, and your card isn't intrigue - i think it would be a good idea to say that (and nothing more, in case this theory is wrong). if nobody speaks up, perhaps the conspiracy theory is true. As soon as one person speaks up, we should stop.
Young Nick: what expansion was Glooble's card from?
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I doubt the game is that easily solvable. However, it would make sense if EVERYONE was from Intrigue except Munch, so YN's role was really a way to find the serial killer. And if everyone except him had a card from Intrigue then the names probably don't matter all that much...someone might end up being "bridge" or "wishing well" and that probably is gonna have nothing to do with flavor/role or anything.
However, I think it would make sense if scum got Intrigue roles that are meaner and badder like torturer, swindler, conspirator, minion. So from that perspective a mass card-claim could be worthwhile. (Especially in a game this size, because if the theory that we're all from Intrigue is correct, then there will be very little room for falseclaiming in a 25-person game.) However, I could also see Robz putting in pitfalls to the mass card-claim idea like giving a townie "torturer" or something, and it may out some VTs/PRs. We are gonna have to weigh the risks and benefits but it certainly seems like a viable option to me.
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Btw, the first paragraph of mine was Shraeye's idea. I realize it's his and should have given him credit for the "all intrigue but SK" idea.
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I doubt the game is that easily solvable. However, it would make sense if EVERYONE was from Intrigue except Munch, so YN's role was really a way to find the serial killer. And if everyone except him had a card from Intrigue then the names probably don't matter all that much...someone might end up being "bridge" or "wishing well" and that probably is gonna have nothing to do with flavor/role or anything.
However, I think it would make sense if scum got Intrigue roles that are meaner and badder like torturer, swindler, conspirator, minion. So from that perspective a mass card-claim could be worthwhile. (Especially in a game this size, because if the theory that we're all from Intrigue is correct, then there will be very little room for falseclaiming in a 25-person game.) However, I could also see Robz putting in pitfalls to the mass card-claim idea like giving a townie "torturer" or something, and it may out some VTs/PRs. We are gonna have to weigh the risks and benefits but it certainly seems like a viable option to me.
i see, so we're all just named townies in that case, but scum have to fake a name if it's the case that scum = attack card. before we go down this road, let's give it a couple days so everyone can see these questions - would still like to here if there's anyone who doesn't have an intrigue card.
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to "hear" obvi
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Although there are 25 Intrigue cards, and 25 players, I don't think we all have different cards. That would make things too easy for town. For example, since Munch was not Intrigue, then we are using at most 24 cards. I think doubling up is very possible, so we won't be able to easily catch falseclaims.
Also the card type, cost, or power may in some way correlate to PRs, and I'm unwilling to give scum that info.
I'm against a massclaim.
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Although there are 25 Intrigue cards, and 25 players, I don't think we all have different cards. That would make things too easy for town. For example, since Munch was not Intrigue, then we are using at most 24 cards. I think doubling up is very possible, so we won't be able to easily catch falseclaims.
Also the card type, cost, or power may in some way correlate to PRs, and I'm unwilling to give scum that info.
I'm against a massclaim.
i agree that massclaim is problematic, but definitely want the answer to my other question (do there exist townies with non-intrigue cards?).
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Although there are 25 Intrigue cards, and 25 players, I don't think we all have different cards. That would make things too easy for town. For example, since Munch was not Intrigue, then we are using at most 24 cards. I think doubling up is very possible, so we won't be able to easily catch falseclaims.
Also the card type, cost, or power may in some way correlate to PRs, and I'm unwilling to give scum that info.
I'm against a massclaim.
i agree that massclaim is problematic, but definitely want the answer to my other question (do there exist townies with non-intrigue cards?).
This seems like a good idea. Though what happens when someone does claim they have a non-intrigue card? We can't know if they're a townie or not.
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Yeah, we messed this up. If you had that theory, you should have pushed for a mass set claim. Now if we mass set claim all the scum will just say Intrigue.
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That said, I think a card claim is a bad idea and I do think it could give some things away that oughtn't be revealed ATM.
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Yeah, we messed this up. If you had that theory, you should have pushed for a mass set claim. Now if we mass set claim all the scum will just say Intrigue.
no, there's no need to massclaim -if the theory is right, youngnick is as good as a cop.
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Yeah, we messed this up. If you had that theory, you should have pushed for a mass set claim. Now if we mass set claim all the scum will just say Intrigue.
Dangalang. You could be correct. Mostly, I hate massclaims, I would have had a hard time selling the necessity of a mass set claim.
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I'm lurking. That's bad. Not much for me to say though. Not often that I say that.
This "Intrigue" theory is... *sunglasses* ...intriguing. yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I'll keep it at the back of my mind, but for now it might be best if a massclaim doesn't happen. I mean, look at what happened the last time it DID happen. Then again, I've won all my games so far in which there was a massclaim...
I see YN claimed card cop. Okay, what does that tell you if you investigate? You know someone's card. Now what? You have to make some borderline assumptions to determine their alignment. Munch had an attack card and he was scum. Can we assume the same case for ALL scum? Could Grujah's card have been Jack-Of-All-Trades, for all we know? Unless the cards had some deeper meaning, finding out someone's card won't tell you much.
If YN is scum, then the special meaning of the cards hold of importance to scum for sure. Might be best not to delve deeper into the subject until we lynch YN. (Wow that sounds really contrived... like how do I know YN is for sure gonna get lynched... ? ) Is it worth discovering his alignment in order to find out the usefulness of the cards but at the cost of his death? That's what I'm trying to decide at the moment. If anyone want to weigh in then go ahead.
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(Wow that sounds really contrived... like how do I know YN is for sure gonna get lynched... ? )
Well, it's gonna happen. So it doesn't sound too contrived to me that you know it. I know it.
Here's an interesting conspiracy theory which I'll be slightly more vague about. There are 5 people in the same sort of curious situation right now. The longer they stay in that position the scummier they look. (nope, it's not just the people who are "Not Voting" right now, it's more involved than that). I'm going to look through some of those people's posts to see if I can clear any suspicion related to this topic.
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Well, maybe something interesting will happen like everyone will switch from someone who's clearly going to get lynched onto me. I've had that happen before ;D
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(Wow that sounds really contrived... like how do I know YN is for sure gonna get lynched... ? )
Well, it's gonna happen. So it doesn't sound too contrived to me that you know it. I know it.
Here's an interesting conspiracy theory which I'll be slightly more vague about. There are 5 people in the same sort of curious situation right now. The longer they stay in that position the scummier they look. (nope, it's not just the people who are "Not Voting" right now, it's more involved than that). I'm going to look through some of those people's posts to see if I can clear any suspicion related to this topic.
folks, i really think YN is a cop and is town. i don't understand "it's gonna happen."
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(Wow that sounds really contrived... like how do I know YN is for sure gonna get lynched... ? )
Well, it's gonna happen. So it doesn't sound too contrived to me that you know it. I know it.
Here's an interesting conspiracy theory which I'll be slightly more vague about. There are 5 people in the same sort of curious situation right now. The longer they stay in that position the scummier they look. (nope, it's not just the people who are "Not Voting" right now, it's more involved than that). I'm going to look through some of those people's posts to see if I can clear any suspicion related to this topic.
folks, i really think YN is a cop and is town. i don't understand "it's gonna happen."
Why do you think this?
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(Wow that sounds really contrived... like how do I know YN is for sure gonna get lynched... ? )
Well, it's gonna happen. So it doesn't sound too contrived to me that you know it. I know it.
Here's an interesting conspiracy theory which I'll be slightly more vague about. There are 5 people in the same sort of curious situation right now. The longer they stay in that position the scummier they look. (nope, it's not just the people who are "Not Voting" right now, it's more involved than that). I'm going to look through some of those people's posts to see if I can clear any suspicion related to this topic.
folks, i really think YN is a cop and is town. i don't understand "it's gonna happen."
Why do you think this?
cause i'm suspecting "town iff intrigue" in which case his role is meaningless as scum. and it's obvious that he has this role (or else you and he are scumbuddies which seems farfetched or he's a really good guesser which seems more farfetched). the only alternative is shraeye's theory that he's a scum-aligned FBI agent which seems unlikely to me - if the only function of the cards is to pinpoint the SK, why all the noise about them? and why not include it in the SK's theme?
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The thing that makes it seem like all-intrigue to me (aside from the fact that there are two intrigue cards in the name, that all cards revealed so far except jester have been from intrigue, and that my own card is from intrigue...yes, my card is Pawn) is that Jester seems like the perfect card for an "Intrigue" themed SK.
Ok it's not much to stand on but it seems likely enough. I do think if we're going to claim, it needs to be a full card claim or nothing. A set claim won't cut it at this point.
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folks, i really think YN is a cop and is town. i don't understand "it's gonna happen."
I agree with exactly half of this. I'm sure that YoungNick is a card cop, complete honesty there. But he's scummy scummy in my tummy.
Oh, I also agree that you currently don't understand "it's gonna happen," but I hope you'll come around.
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IF cards reveal scum (and don't reveal role) mafia card cop is a stupid role.
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can't post much but to respond to a request: glooble's card came from intrigue
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The thing that makes it seem like all-intrigue to me (aside from the fact that there are two intrigue cards in the name, that all cards revealed so far except jester have been from intrigue, and that my own card is from intrigue...yes, my card is Pawn) is that Jester seems like the perfect card for an "Intrigue" themed SK.
Ok it's not much to stand on but it seems likely enough. I do think if we're going to claim, it needs to be a full card claim or nothing. A set claim won't cut it at this point.
Based on all the info that has come out, I will say that I do believe that all townies will be from Intrigue. I don't know if all scum will be from Intrigue, or out of Intrigue.
I am AGAINST mass card claiming. I believe it will give out info that is far more useful to scum than to town. Additionally, if they have worked out what I think I have worked out, they should be able to fake claim without issue. Even easier if they don't have to claim first.
Instead, if someone is about to get lynched, I think they should card claim first and see if anyone has a reason why we should back off.
I am torn on Nick now. I think he has been scummy, but I think his claim is believable and it seems townier than scummier. Note that I don't think he is clear. I could see this as being a different version of rolecop.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
With my suggestion you get more people who fully trust you which is always a good thing, and then that person can believe Dsell etc, expands a group of obvtown to you.
I want more thoughts on this from people. In particular, I'd like to hear opinions from my biggest town reads (in no particular order):
- jo
- Ins
- sparky
- Dsell
- yuma
- ehunt
- cayvie
Should I pass the cup to someone I trust a lot? Someone middling?
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Vote Count 3.8
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (8 ) -- yuma, ashersky, Dsell, sparky, shraeye, Captain_Frisk, theorel, Morgrim7 (L-2)
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (2) -- eHalcyon, Cuzz
sparky (1) -- watno
Not Voting (5) -- O, ftl, Axxle, ehunt, jotheonah
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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@Robz, you can prevent the emoticon without leaving an ugly space by putting in a pair of tags. Like this:
(8[b][/b])
Will get you this:
(8)
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I think I am still OK with lynching Nick. I still think he has been scummy, and his role could go either way. It could be helpful if he is town, but it could also be harmful if he is scum.
I am a little hesitant because some of the people I find sketchy are all on that wagon. Though to be fair, shraeye does seem more town-ish to me recently. Hmm.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
With my suggestion you get more people who fully trust you which is always a good thing, and then that person can believe Dsell etc, expands a group of obvtown to you.
I want more thoughts on this from people. In particular, I'd like to hear opinions from my biggest town reads (in no particular order):
- jo
- Ins
- sparky
- Dsell
- yuma
- ehunt
- cayvie
Should I pass the cup to someone I trust a lot? Someone middling?
you should not pass it to ehunt. i know, right?
i would suggest passing it to someone you trust who is not ehunt; i think the amount of trust you build is more important than the weak (seemingly?) investigative ability of the wine.
about intrigue... my card is also from that set.
here's another thing: cops also frequently seem like scum, i think. they both have reasons to hide, and to be a little more sure about their statements than townies. i'll have to look back at it, but i might buy yn's claim.
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here's another thing: cops also frequently seem like scum, i think. they both have reasons to hide, and to be a little more sure about their statements than townies. i'll have to look back at it, but i might buy yn's claim.
Well, actual cops would seem more sure about their statements because they KNOW that certain people are town. Nick's claimed ability does not afford him that insight without making certain assumptions that he probably could not have made before now.
Also, I could see this as a parallel to "Mafia rolecop" as easily as it could be a parallel to a town cop.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
With my suggestion you get more people who fully trust you which is always a good thing, and then that person can believe Dsell etc, expands a group of obvtown to you.
I want more thoughts on this from people. In particular, I'd like to hear opinions from my biggest town reads (in no particular order):
- jo
- Ins
- sparky
- Dsell
- yuma
- ehunt
- cayvie
Should I pass the cup to someone I trust a lot? Someone middling?
First time I've been called town all game. Props to you sir.
Bringing this up for my own reference:
Alright people, help me out:
Yesterday I had an item: I bore the Cup of Wine in front of Robz. The Cup works as follows:
At some point during the day, I had to PM Robz the name of a player with whom I wished to share the Wine. Failure to do so resulted in Modkill. During the night, that player and I would each be given the choice to drink from the cup - or not.
If we both made the same choice, our Role Descriptions would be shared with one another. If we choose differently, nothing would happen. Regardless of our choices, the Cup would be passed into the possession of the other person.
I'm not yet going to reveal whom I choose, but my concern is thus: If it gets passed, in the future, into the hands of scum, they can simply pass it amongst themselves and never risk revealing their description to a townie. Obviously it's in our best interest then to force the issue, so that if a player who once held it ever flips scum, we can trace it to the people associated with him (who he gave it to, who gave it to him etc).
But I'm not sure the best way to go about this. Making public where it is at any given time is all fine and dandy until it arrives in the hands of scum. See, the person to whom I presented was informed that it was I doing the presenting before he choose to drink. So if he were scum, he could've killed me and hidden the existence of the wine. In the future, the same dilemma may exist.
If we make the current owner at any given time announce their target before the day ends, it's good money the target will wake up dead, taking the cup to their grave - along with any information they may have. I'm revealing this today, instead of yesterday, in case there is some sort of day-kill power that didn't want the item in circulation (I actually doubt that role exists, but I wanted to be safe). It's for this reason that I'm not yet revealing who I gave the cup to.
However, I will say that the fact that I didn't die during the night, and the fact that the recipient choose to drink the wine (I did not) both suggest that this player is town to me. The second reasoning is a little weaker than the first, but I didn't expect scum to drink the wine, in case it had "extra" effects.
Also in this query then is should we agree to a standard policy of drink/don't drink, and those breaking policy should be lynched?
How does everybody feel the best way to handle this is? It's a great investigative tool for town, but we need to (I think) keep track of it somehow to put it to maximum effect. Thoughts?
This is just my opinion, but it should probably be passed to someone who you have a moderate-trust level on, not someone who you feel, say, strongly or certainly is town. You trust the person is town, but are not quite certain enough and wish to exchange descriptions to get a little bit better understanding on their alignment. This is the safest way to keep the wine intact while still performing that little bit of investigation. If it works, that circle of trust grows ever stronger.
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eHal, I am not sure exactly what you want to hear from me, so let me know if I miss something that you want me to address.
1 - I am against card claiming in anyway shape or form. I think that ehunt's--is it ehunt?--assumption that we can find town or scum based off which set the cards come from or if they are attack or not is ridiculous. It is too easy and would be game breaking... Robz did not design a game that can be game breaking. As a result cards would likely be mixed and any information we get would lead to mixed results with mafia getting their hands on way too much information. You will hear absolutely no information from me regarding my role or card name at this point--this may change at some point in the future where mass claiming is more appropriate.
2 - Young Nick is still my number one scum candidate. But if we want to play him out for a bit and see where it takes us, I am ok with a sparky lynch. Why do you have a town read on him?
3 - I think you should give the wine to someone that you have a mild town read on.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
With my suggestion you get more people who fully trust you which is always a good thing, and then that person can believe Dsell etc, expands a group of obvtown to you.
I want more thoughts on this from people. In particular, I'd like to hear opinions from my biggest town reads (in no particular order):
- jo
- Ins
- sparky
- Dsell
- yuma
- ehunt
- cayvie
Should I pass the cup to someone I trust a lot? Someone middling?
I'd say if that's your list of towniest reads, give it to one of the people on that list not named Dsell or ehunt.
I'm curious about where your townread on sparky comes from?
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You could also give it to someone who you hope is town but you're not sure, and whose input could be valuable if town or dangerous as scum. That could fit a lot of people depending on your reads, but maybe shraeye would fit that description for you. It would be nice for the town to know whether his reads are trustworthy.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
With my suggestion you get more people who fully trust you which is always a good thing, and then that person can believe Dsell etc, expands a group of obvtown to you.
I want more thoughts on this from people. In particular, I'd like to hear opinions from my biggest town reads (in no particular order):
- jo
- Ins
- sparky
- Dsell
- yuma
- ehunt
- cayvie
Should I pass the cup to someone I trust a lot? Someone middling?
Some people are suggesting you give it to some subset of that list. Terrible idea. If you give a list of 7 people, and we start chopping it down further, what if one of your reads is wrong? Then a few scum can just ask eachother in the QT (hey, did you get it?) and if not go for a kill in a very small subset of people.
I would recommend giving the wine to somebody you want to give it to. Use your own criteria. Don't spell out anything that scum have a chance of tracing.
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While checking my mysterious subset of 5 people who are possibly suspicious, I noticed that both ftl and Axxle have been postless for almost 4 days.
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I would recommend giving the wine to somebody you want to give it to. Use your own criteria. Don't spell out anything that scum have a chance of tracing.
I do agree with this. I wasn't thinking about the fact that we don't want scum to even narrow down the choices. I still stand behind my statements as a good way of choosing, but would recommend that you consider everyone else's choices as well as your own ideas and choose someone based on any one of these methods. There is nothing so important as being sure that mafia does not kill the recipient.
It also may not be too early to give it to someone you suspect to be scum. It's even possible that they'll be town and you'll be able to hone your reads. I like making the "circle of trust" as big as we can but the wine can be a good investigative tool too.
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One thing I have going against me is that you all haven't seen a confirmed town-sparky yet, so it's easy to compare me to my scummy behavior, especially since I'm a tricky scum player. You all can't go "oh he acted like this in mafia MCCCXXXVII when he was town, so he's probably town here". So I believe comparing myself to my past play is still premature. I call dibs for a slot in that game btw.
While checking my mysterious subset of 5 people who are possibly suspicious, I noticed that both ftl and Axxle have been postless for almost 4 days.
Noted. That's worse than my amount of lurking, and when that's the case, it's time to get serious.
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I will send prods, although I bet they're not the only ones.
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2 - Young Nick is still my number one scum candidate. But if we want to play him out for a bit and see where it takes us, I am ok with a sparky lynch. Why do you have a town read on him?
I'm curious about where your townread on sparky comes from?
Hard to explain. I feel his play has seemed less like mafia and more like crazy/mistaken townie. I would oppose a sparky lynch.
I'm still OK with a Nick lynch.
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@ehalc. I am trying to be here more. Also I suggest giving the wine to someone you "know" is town
Interesting suggestion. What would be the purpose? I am currently inclined to give it to someone I am less sure about, to be a bit more investigative with it. But I can see merits to your suggestion as well. Circle of trust and all that.
With my suggestion you get more people who fully trust you which is always a good thing, and then that person can believe Dsell etc, expands a group of obvtown to you.
I want more thoughts on this from people. In particular, I'd like to hear opinions from my biggest town reads (in no particular order):
- jo
- Ins
- sparky
- Dsell
- yuma
- ehunt
- cayvie
Should I pass the cup to someone I trust a lot? Someone middling?
Some people are suggesting you give it to some subset of that list. Terrible idea. If you give a list of 7 people, and we start chopping it down further, what if one of your reads is wrong? Then a few scum can just ask eachother in the QT (hey, did you get it?) and if not go for a kill in a very small subset of people.
I would recommend giving the wine to somebody you want to give it to. Use your own criteria. Don't spell out anything that scum have a chance of tracing.
The list is not people who I am likely to give it to. They are people whose opinions I care most about due to my read on them. Of course, I am open to opinions from others as well. Yours is appreciated!
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eHalc, I think you should think outside the box about ways the wine could be used and pass it out accordingly.
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this game is soooooo sloooowwwwww
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this game is soooooo sloooowwwwww
Agreed. At this point, we probably need a lynch plus night actions to analyze to get the game rolling again.
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yuma - i don't think it's gamebreaking at all if cards determine alignment. it means young nick's role is a little weaker than a cop (weaker since it takes until somebody points out that cards determine alignment to realize this).
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I'm starting to have second thoughts about YN. It might be worth it to keep him around for a little longer. UNVOTE: Young Nick
But I'm not seeing a whole lot of willingness from everyone to suggest another worthy lunch candidate BESIDES ME lol. Plus it's the weekend, which makes everything even slower.
VOTE: ftl for now.
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this game is soooooo sloooowwwwww
Agreed. At this point, we probably need a lynch plus night actions to analyze to get the game rolling again.
YoungNick
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this game is soooooo sloooowwwwww
Agreed. At this point, we probably need a lynch plus night actions to analyze to get the game rolling again.
YoungNick
Why would you want to lynch a possible cop?
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Because he's most definitely scum in my opinion. His role looks to be completely honest, but I feel like the cards were in place only to catch the SK, and possibly to identify power roles. (Remember that one of the powers Munch could get by copying the right person was to return a pro-town result for any investigation, so making a cop with the unique ability to find SK makes sense). That is advantageous to mafia. I really don't understand the people who are saying "oh hey, I believe his claim, so let's not lynch him". I believe his claim and I still want to lynch him. His claim doesn't invalidate all the scummy things he has most definitely done.
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Hard to explain. I feel his play has seemed less like mafia and more like crazy/mistaken townie. I would oppose a sparky lynch.
I'm still OK with a Nick lynch.
Then vote for him. This game is ultra slow right now, people are just waiting for the softdeadline on Monday (or the real one on Thursday) to roll around. That's silly. Why was everybody willing to lynch Munch so quickly, but YoungNick's lynch is taking so much longer? They both were full to the brim with scummy actions, and both made claims that I think put them into even scummier light. But for some reason, we aren't as gung-ho about a YN lynch as the Munch lynch.
My current theory on this is because YN is mafia, plain and simple. Clearly his scum partners will be more hesitant to decide to bus than they were to simply "mislynch" Munch. My mysterious set of 5 are the people who were voting for Munch but not voting for YoungNick. Two have been absent for like 4 days now (axxle, ftl), two I gave mild suspicion to (eHalcyon/ehunt), and one seemed to be medium suspicious over his hesitancy to lynch YN (jotheonah).
A second point is that I really dislike is eHalcyon's stance on sparky. I think that him saying sparky feels like crazy/mistaken towny and protecting him is in huge contrast with the way he was crucifying Munch for his crazy/"anti-town" posts. Why does sparky get the pass that you weren't willing to give to Munch?
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Because he's most definitely scum in my opinion. His role looks to be completely honest, but I feel like the cards were in place only to catch the SK, and possibly to identify power roles. (Remember that one of the powers Munch could get by copying the right person was to return a pro-town result for any investigation, so making a cop with the unique ability to find SK makes sense). That is advantageous to mafia. I really don't understand the people who are saying "oh hey, I believe his claim, so let's not lynch him". I believe his claim and I still want to lynch him. His claim doesn't invalidate all the scummy things he has most definitely done.
No one has counterclaimed having an Intrigue card. I don't know why you think it's so much more likely that only the serial killer had an offset card. More importantly, as soon as we get our first scum flip we'll know which theory is correct. IF it turns out that only and all scum have non-Intrigue cards, then Young Nick CAN'T be scum because a mafia alignment cop is completely pointless. So I just don't think he's a good lynch target. He might be a VERY helpful power role, if he is he's definitely town, and the first legit mafia flip we get will tell us the answer to that question.
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Because he's most definitely scum in my opinion. His role looks to be completely honest, but I feel like the cards were in place only to catch the SK, and possibly to identify power roles. (Remember that one of the powers Munch could get by copying the right person was to return a pro-town result for any investigation, so making a cop with the unique ability to find SK makes sense). That is advantageous to mafia. I really don't understand the people who are saying "oh hey, I believe his claim, so let's not lynch him". I believe his claim and I still want to lynch him. His claim doesn't invalidate all the scummy things he has most definitely done.
No one has counterclaimed having an Intrigue card. I don't know why you think it's so much more likely that only the serial killer had an offset card. More importantly, as soon as we get our first scum flip we'll know which theory is correct. IF it turns out that only and all scum have non-Intrigue cards, then Young Nick CAN'T be scum because a mafia alignment cop is completely pointless. So I just don't think he's a good lynch target. He might be a VERY helpful power role, if he is he's definitely town, and the first legit mafia flip we get will tell us the answer to that question.
Um, but we totally got a legit mafia flip day 1. Making that mistake definitely gives you town points in my eyes, because the scumteam for sure knows and feels the pain of us lynching their JOAT on day 1.
When we lynched grujah, we only got info of one card that dropped (between Grujah, o, eevee, and glooble). So we weren't able to determine that scum cards come from intrigue. And even when we lynch scum-YN, we won't be sure if the card revealed comes from him or some NK. So the bolded statement above is not true.
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Oh, that's a good point. Still, I think the evidence for Young Nick being a town-aligned cop is a sight better than you're giving it credit for.
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Also, we can always fall back on the old see if he survives the night WIFOM.
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eHalc, I think you should think outside the box about ways the wine could be used and pass it out accordingly.
Does that mean you disagree with Insomniac's suggestion?
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eHalc, I think you should think outside the box about ways the wine could be used and pass it out accordingly.
Does that mean you disagree with Insomniac's suggestion?
I don't remember Insomniac's suggestion, but I still say you should do what you think is best, without following outside input.
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eHalc, I think you should think outside the box about ways the wine could be used and pass it out accordingly.
Does that mean you disagree with Insomniac's suggestion?
On the contrary, I agree with it.
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Hard to explain. I feel his play has seemed less like mafia and more like crazy/mistaken townie. I would oppose a sparky lynch.
I'm still OK with a Nick lynch.
Then vote for him. This game is ultra slow right now, people are just waiting for the softdeadline on Monday (or the real one on Thursday) to roll around. That's silly. Why was everybody willing to lynch Munch so quickly, but YoungNick's lynch is taking so much longer? They both were full to the brim with scummy actions, and both made claims that I think put them into even scummier light. But for some reason, we aren't as gung-ho about a YN lynch as the Munch lynch.
My current theory on this is because YN is mafia, plain and simple. Clearly his scum partners will be more hesitant to decide to bus than they were to simply "mislynch" Munch. My mysterious set of 5 are the people who were voting for Munch but not voting for YoungNick. Two have been absent for like 4 days now (axxle, ftl), two I gave mild suspicion to (eHalcyon/ehunt), and one seemed to be medium suspicious over his hesitancy to lynch YN (jotheonah).
A second point is that I really dislike is eHalcyon's stance on sparky. I think that him saying sparky feels like crazy/mistaken towny and protecting him is in huge contrast with the way he was crucifying Munch for his crazy/"anti-town" posts. Why does sparky get the pass that you weren't willing to give to Munch?
I don't feel strongly enough about Nick to vote, at least until we reach deadline. Sparky's play has not been the same as Munch's was.
Also, you need to stop with the extremes. IIRC, at one point on day 1 or 2 you said you were sure Munch was townie. You said you were 100% sure jo is scum, though you eased off lately. If you are town, you can't be sure of anything unless it has been mod confirmed.
What I dislike is your tendency to flip flop. You did it on Munch. You do it with me constantly. Day 1 you found me suspicious, then townie. Day 2 you said you were sure I was town. Start of day 3 you were suspicious again without giving any reason, then you posted a big post about how you think I am townie after re-reading my day 2. Now I'm on your suspicious list again? It's weird.
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I'm not flipflopping indescriminately, I gave my reasons for all thoughts. Joth was acting super suspicious, and I was certain he was scum. His mistake about forgetting Grujah was lynched gave me a big town read, which really dialed down that certainty.
For you (as another example), I started out with Day1 wild reads finding you scummy, then it became town. I got really frustrated with you at the end of day 2 with your insistance that Munch defended Grujah and my frustration showed at the start of day 3. Then on reread, I saw all the reasons I had felt you were town before, and I was back to my good ol' day2 townread. Now my town read is dwindling because of your hesitance to lynch YN despite vocally supporting it, and your position with regard to sparky.
As for me stopping on my extremes, I won't. When I am certain of something, I say I am certain of it. When I become less certain, i stop saying I'm certain of it. It's possible for my scumreads to be dialed down by a really solid argument, or a claim, or a townslip like joth's. But just because this possibility exists, I'm not going to make posts like
person X is acting really really scummy, thus I think *maybe* they are scum; however, as it's possible taht future events come to light that paint them townier, I think there's a chance that they aren't scum, due to the positive probability that townreads could still occur. Unless those events don't happen. Then they're probably scum, maybe. I think.
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I have no problem with Shraeye flip-flopping, but yeah, speaking with 100% is dangerous. It reminds me of Cuzz saying he could confirm someone as town based on his investigation results even though he can't. Just like I can't confirm that someone is town or scum based on my investigation results.
If it's your way of breadcrumbing... well it seems like a pretty crappy way of doing so.
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"certainty"
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
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"certainty"
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
+1 and fair enough. When I get a PR and actually have investigation results that I'm giving, I promise you'll know the difference between exaggerating-shraeye and PR-shraeye. Until then, I'm going to use words like certain, because that's how I be.
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I'm not flipflopping indescriminately, I gave my reasons for all thoughts. Joth was acting super suspicious, and I was certain he was scum. His mistake about forgetting Grujah was lynched gave me a big town read, which really dialed down that certainty.
For you (as another example), I started out with Day1 wild reads finding you scummy, then it became town. I got really frustrated with you at the end of day 2 with your insistance that Munch defended Grujah and my frustration showed at the start of day 3. Then on reread, I saw all the reasons I had felt you were town before, and I was back to my good ol' day2 townread. Now my town read is dwindling because of your hesitance to lynch YN despite vocally supporting it, and your position with regard to sparky.
As for me stopping on my extremes, I won't. When I am certain of something, I say I am certain of it. When I become less certain, i stop saying I'm certain of it. It's possible for my scumreads to be dialed down by a really solid argument, or a claim, or a townslip like joth's. But just because this possibility exists, I'm not going to make posts like
person X is acting really really scummy, thus I think *maybe* they are scum; however, as it's possible taht future events come to light that paint them townier, I think there's a chance that they aren't scum, due to the positive probability that townreads could still occur. Unless those events don't happen. Then they're probably scum, maybe. I think.
Like I said, I am OK with the lynch but I don't feel the need to end the day early. Your portrayal of non-certainty as scummy is ridiculous. Your post sounds almost like a threat, you know. I don't see your issue with my position on sparky either. This game I've mostly followed my instincts. So far they have worked out well for me.
Certain things you've said today made me think you are town, but you continue to look super scummy in so many ways. Bah.
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Your portrayal of non-certainty as scummy is ridiculous. Your post sounds almost like a threat, you know.
I did not portray non-certainty as scummy. That post is in no way a threat, and I have no idea how you got that impression.
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I think Young Nick is town.
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I think Young Nick is town.
As of a few days ago.
I reread sparky partially a few days ago. I got a null read on him + Voltgloss,
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I got prodded. Sorry for my absence. I don't have a good excuse, I just haven't been paying much attention to my forum games lately.
Are people still voting Young Nick? Didn't he clear himself with a provable cardcop claim? I'm not voting young nick.
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I got prodded. Sorry for my absence. I don't have a good excuse, I just haven't been paying much attention to my forum games lately.
Are people still voting Young Nick? Didn't he clear himself with a provable cardcop claim? I'm not voting young nick.
Yeah, his cardcop role is proven (he knew my card), but that doesn't make him town. I think he's been very scummy, has had some periods of lurkiness, defended Grujah, and I don't think his role makes him any less scummy, especially since we know that the SK's card was from a set that many townies don't come from.
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I got prodded. Sorry for my absence. I don't have a good excuse, I just haven't been paying much attention to my forum games lately.
Are people still voting Young Nick? Didn't he clear himself with a provable cardcop claim? I'm not voting young nick.
Yeah, his cardcop role is proven (he knew my card), but that doesn't make him town. I think he's been very scummy, has had some periods of lurkiness, defended Grujah, and I don't think his role makes him any less scummy, especially since we know that the SK's card was from a set that many townies don't come from.
All I did was question one person's motives for voting. Please, tell me how this is a defense. It is merely asking for better justification for one's vote.
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Italicized/bolding mine, in case it's not clear.
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Asking people to vote for you or someone else rather than Grujah is at least a tacit defense.
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It wasn't because I thought Grujah was town, it was because I thought yuma's reasons for voting weren't that great. A defense of Grujah probably would have entailed more than that one response to one man's vote.
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Yeah, his cardcop role is proven (he knew my card), but that doesn't make him town. I think he's been very scummy, has had some periods of lurkiness, defended Grujah, and I don't think his role makes him any less scummy, especially since we know that the SK's card was from a set that many townies don't come from.
how does that logic make any sense, Dsell?
surely if alignment is correlated to set, that makes him far less likely to be scum.
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Okay, so to me Young Nick's role seems most closely aligned to a Flavor Cop. He gets some information about a flavorful part of our roles. It seems a lot like the wine, in that sense. It could find scum, but only if we have some idea of what flavor goes with the scum. The fundamental issue is that we don't know the flavor associated with scum. According to mafia-wiki, flavor cops are usually pro-town. So, the question is, did Robz give us 2 pro-town flavor-cop type roles (the wine and Young Nick)? Flavor cops are most useful for verifying claims (since the claim should make sense with the flavor).
Eh, I guess I'll unvote. Usually pro-town is enough to overpower, seems scummy to other people. I'll go back to Vote: Captain Frisk to maintain solidarity with eHalcyon.
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Vote Count 3.9
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (6) -- yuma, ashersky, Dsell, shraeye, Captain_Frisk, Morgrim7
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (3) -- eHalcyon, Cuzz, theorel
sparky5856 (1) -- watno
ftl (1) -- sparky5856
Not Voting (5) -- O, ftl, Axxle, ehunt, jotheonah
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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I can support the Frisk wagon, especially toward the end of moving the day to a close. He's on my shortlist of possible scummies (which is mostly P.o.E.).
Vote: Captain Frisk
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I can support the Frisk wagon, especially toward the end of moving the day to a close. He's on my shortlist of possible scummies (which is mostly P.o.E.).
Vote: Captain Frisk
I'll sheep eHal/jo and the rest of this wagon.
Vote: Captain_Frisk
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Yeah, his cardcop role is proven (he knew my card), but that doesn't make him town. I think he's been very scummy, has had some periods of lurkiness, defended Grujah, and I don't think his role makes him any less scummy, especially since we know that the SK's card was from a set that many townies don't come from.
how does that logic make any sense, Dsell?
surely if alignment is correlated to set, that makes him far less likely to be scum.
I believe, but do not know, that we are all from Intrigue except for Munch. It seems too obvious otherwise. What if we'd just set-claimed or card-claimed day 1? I suppose it is possible since that would make YN a weaker cop. But eeeeh I don't know.
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Baaaaaaa. I'm inclined to follow this Frisk wagon but I gotta read the mega-posts on his behavior before I finalize a vote. Sure, I'll do that now.
Referencing what Galzria had to say about him in D2:
Captain Frisk:
Let's move on to a slightly easier person now. Take a break, if you will. Frisk has voted just 3 times this game, on (in order): TheMunch (#457) - Shraeye (#1053) - O (#1449)
Again, only one of his votes lands on somebody I know to be town (O), but again his last vote comes at a time when the Grujah wagon was taking off - so notably not only is on town, but it's not on scum.
To me, Frisk's first particularly scummy statement doesn't come until #922, when he sums up what's happened in the game up to that point by saying "Nothing at all":
Quote from: Captain_Frisk on September 20, 2012, 08:24:07 pm
Quote from: Young Nick on September 20, 2012, 08:19:53 pm
Like c'mon now, I don't even have multiple pages of "Recent Unread Posts." I used to be able to get that up to three pages in less than 24 hours.
The rest of f.ds is totally silent. And then, ZM2 starts and ends while I am gone. And then MXII starts before I even have a chance to see the pre-game sign up.
Why is the only thing that is happening here Mafia? Dark Ages came out! Go play Dominion, sheesh. All of you.
I ask that for three days, no one posts, I won't ask robz to mod-prod anyone and then maybe we could be on equal footing. (Not a serious request.)
Just do what I did and skip it.
I think the summary is: nothing happened that you can't read later, and o may have been scummy.
Now you are caught up.
Now maybe there's some serious apathy going on, but c'mon. It's either really, really terrible town play to be ignoring the game for the first 1000 posts, or just scum not knowing that he doesn't need to really pay attention.
I recognize that bad does NOT equal scummy, but this caught my attention at the time, and did on the reread as well. This idea was just SO bad - it reminds me of Insomniac in BMV as his role of Jotheonah. In the Scum QT he said something like "I can't believe I got the whole town to take orders from scum - that was awesome" - Well, that's how I felt about CF's post #926:
Quote from: Captain_Frisk on September 20, 2012, 08:34:04 pm
Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
After that however, nothing really jumped out until post #1449, where CF voted for O despite the growning wagon on Grujah and his (imo) growing and apparent scumminess:
Quote from: Captain_Frisk on September 25, 2012, 09:36:37 pm
Vote: O - for not voting this close to deadline.
O's a strange fellow, so I never feel confident in my reads.
Secondary: Voltaire - for pushing that we all push secondary / tertiary votes. This feels like scum trying to give themselves an out to steer away from town consensus.
Tertiary: Shraeye - reasons given during my initial vote.
And that's it. CF has had the fewest posts of everybody that I've looked at so far, and far too many of those posts have said... nothing. It's very, very hard to distinguish between this CF and scum CF of the last 1001 games, so I'm really, really wary on this front. However, his scumminess certainly isn't overwhelming, and he's probably #3 of my 4 reads so far. Out of 100, he's probably sitting at 60 (50 is neutral, fwiw). CF really, really needs to start participating more. I want to believe that he's town, and I want to believe he can be a real boon - but I just haven't seen it this game.
After that post Frisk was mainly pushing Munch, doesn't tell us a whole lot since he was SK. But his posts were pretty short and to the point. D3, still not a whole lot of content. He clearly has shown that he's not putting effort into this game, so he could care less about his team, whether it's scum or town? What does that tell us? How often has Frisk been scum in the past?
He joined my watno wagon for a flimsy reason, in fact looking at his votes he rarely provides reason:
Vote: theorel
He's better than this.
Vote: watno
Vote: Young Nick
He also seems to like to go after players who are in the spotlight i.e. there's action going on with them (with theorel, for instance, he just came back after an absence).
Took me a while to find shraeye's analysis on him.
@Frisk: here's a question I want to ask. Did you get your summary of the ashersky case? What do you think about it now?
uhhhhhh did Frisk ever respond to this? (It's at the end of the post I just quoted.)
After all of this, I get a slight scum read off of him. Is it worthy of a vote though? We ARE getting close to deadline. Perhaps I should examine the votes currently on him?
eHalc: post#2278:
CF has felt very "empty" to me this game. He hasn't really been contributing. Having his d1 vote on a now-confirmed townie doesn't help. The way he has thrown his vote around today is also a bit suspicious to me.
theorel: sheeping eHalc, post#2319
Cuzz: votes just like Captain_Frisk does. :-\ post#2326
@jo: any other reasons as to why Frisk is on your scumlist besides the PoE and this:
A bit scummy, for low participation: Frisk and Young Nick
If we lynch Frisk, it'll feel more of a policy lynch than anything, similar to a "lynch all lurkers" type of a policy lynch. I'll get down behind this, even though my confidence isn't terribly high. But it's high enough.
VOTE: Captain_Frisk.
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Captain Frisk:
Let's move on to a slightly easier person now. Take a break, if you will. Frisk has voted just 3 times this game, on (in order): TheMunch (#457) - Shraeye (#1053) - O (#1449)
Again, only one of his votes lands on somebody I know to be town (O), but again his last vote comes at a time when the Grujah wagon was taking off - so notably not only is on town, but it's not on scum.
To me, Frisk's first particularly scummy statement doesn't come until #922, when he sums up what's happened in the game up to that point by saying "Nothing at all":
Like c'mon now, I don't even have multiple pages of "Recent Unread Posts." I used to be able to get that up to three pages in less than 24 hours.
The rest of f.ds is totally silent. And then, ZM2 starts and ends while I am gone. And then MXII starts before I even have a chance to see the pre-game sign up.
Why is the only thing that is happening here Mafia? Dark Ages came out! Go play Dominion, sheesh. All of you.
I ask that for three days, no one posts, I won't ask robz to mod-prod anyone and then maybe we could be on equal footing. (Not a serious request.)
Just do what I did and skip it.
I think the summary is: nothing happened that you can't read later, and o may have been scummy.
Now you are caught up.
Now maybe there's some serious apathy going on, but c'mon. It's either really, really terrible town play to be ignoring the game for the first 1000 posts, or just scum not knowing that he doesn't need to really pay attention.
I recognize that bad does NOT equal scummy, but this caught my attention at the time, and did on the reread as well. This idea was just SO bad - it reminds me of Insomniac in BMV as his role of Jotheonah. In the Scum QT he said something like "I can't believe I got the whole town to take orders from scum - that was awesome" - Well, that's how I felt about CF's post #926:
Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.
How about this. We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to. Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?
After that however, nothing really jumped out until post #1449, where CF voted for O despite the growning wagon on Grujah and his (imo) growing and apparent scumminess:
Vote: O - for not voting this close to deadline.
O's a strange fellow, so I never feel confident in my reads.
Secondary: Voltaire - for pushing that we all push secondary / tertiary votes. This feels like scum trying to give themselves an out to steer away from town consensus.
Tertiary: Shraeye - reasons given during my initial vote.
And that's it. CF has had the fewest posts of everybody that I've looked at so far, and far too many of those posts have said... nothing. It's very, very hard to distinguish between this CF and scum CF of the last 1001 games, so I'm really, really wary on this front. However, his scumminess certainly isn't overwhelming, and he's probably #3 of my 4 reads so far. Out of 100, he's probably sitting at 60 (50 is neutral, fwiw). CF really, really needs to start participating more. I want to believe that he's town, and I want to believe he can be a real boon - but I just haven't seen it this game.
Fixed the first quote. Quoting from the Print page can get messy I guess.
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Frisk has contributed so little in this game. I could be on board with lynching him, though I still find YN more outright scummy. I will wait for Frisk to arrive and defend himself (maybe he'll take it more seriously when he's about to be lynched) to place my vote anywhere else.
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Frisk has contributed so little in this game. I could be on board with lynching him, though I still find YN more outright scummy. I will wait for Frisk to arrive and defend himself (maybe he'll take it more seriously when he's about to be lynched) to place my vote anywhere else.
No defense planned. I'm a tracker. I tracked Yuma twice (3rd vote on wagons), got no result both times. I thought I had been roleblocked night 1, but after discussion with RobZ after night 2 - this answer is also consistent with the person taking no action - which is different than how tracker was handled in MXII - and how it was for other games I was in.
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I'm back, and considering I was gone for 3 days I guess I'm lucky I don't have even more to catch up on.
VOTE: Young Nick
and then he just jumps on a wagon, putting Nick at L-2 (after saying earlier "If *I'm* going to wagon-vote on Cuzz as you said, it would have been towards the end of the day.") Why act differently with this wagon?
[/quote]
...act differently? I jumped on Cuzz, and then I jump on YN. What's different? We're not really at the end of the day yet, so you can scratch that argument. And besides, I meant that if I was SCUM, I would have wagon-voted at the end of the day. Are you just trying to find ways to put me down because I'm easy to take down?? That's what it feels like to me. For the time being though I'll leave my vote on YN though.
[/quote]
Ok, I misunderstood that part. Sorry.
I'm not really convinced of both the large wagons we have at the moment.
I think the argument that Nick defended Grujah really doesn't make much sense. I didn't read voting him or yuma as a serious proposal, I think he just wanted to know what made Grujah differnt than other lurkers.
Both him and Frisk did quite a lot of saying nothing, but I think that's true for many other players too, and it seems more scummy to me with theorel for example.
Also I find it strange, how Nick is asking to be giving the wine when he's about to be lynched. Might be an attempt to at least get it out of the game before he dies.
Considering the claims: I don't doubt that Nick's card cop claim is true, but I don't think it makes him being town more probable and also probably isn't that useful if he's town, especially now that he claimed it. It could well be a scum role to help them find PRs. Frisk's role is pretty verifiable too, at least if we let him live another night. Also, I think it's more likely to be town and it has the potential to be a lot more useful to town than Nick's.
Therefore I really think we shouldn't lynch Frisk.
If Nick is the only alternative (and I fear he is, considering the soft deadline is today) , I'd prefer to lynch him other Frisk. However, I would prefer theorel or sparky.
I also really don't like how ashersky has been flying under the radar lately, especially after Cuzz claimed he was VT. I still think it's well possible that Cuzz read the Townie part into the vanilla description, when it really wasn't there
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messed up quote tags, this is what it shoul have looked like:
...alright sure. let's go down this road.
VOTE: Young Nick
and then he just jumps on a wagon, putting Nick at L-2 (after saying earlier "If *I'm* going to wagon-vote on Cuzz as you said, it would have been towards the end of the day.") Why act differently with this wagon?
...act differently? I jumped on Cuzz, and then I jump on YN. What's different? We're not really at the end of the day yet, so you can scratch that argument. And besides, I meant that if I was SCUM, I would have wagon-voted at the end of the day. Are you just trying to find ways to put me down because I'm easy to take down?? That's what it feels like to me. For the time being though I'll leave my vote on YN though.
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Frisk has contributed so little in this game. I could be on board with lynching him, though I still find YN more outright scummy. I will wait for Frisk to arrive and defend himself (maybe he'll take it more seriously when he's about to be lynched) to place my vote anywhere else.
No defense planned. I'm a tracker. I tracked Yuma twice (3rd vote on wagons), got no result both times. I thought I had been roleblocked night 1, but after discussion with RobZ after night 2 - this answer is also consistent with the person taking no action - which is different than how tracker was handled in MXII - and how it was for other games I was in.
We should maybe give yuma a chance to confirm this, but even so there's no reason to assume this is a town role. Mafia tracker was Frisk's role in BMV fwiw.
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Frisk has contributed so little in this game. I could be on board with lynching him, though I still find YN more outright scummy. I will wait for Frisk to arrive and defend himself (maybe he'll take it more seriously when he's about to be lynched) to place my vote anywhere else.
No defense planned. I'm a tracker. I tracked Yuma twice (3rd vote on wagons), got no result both times. I thought I had been roleblocked night 1, but after discussion with RobZ after night 2 - this answer is also consistent with the person taking no action - which is different than how tracker was handled in MXII - and how it was for other games I was in.
We should maybe give yuma a chance to confirm this, but even so there's no reason to assume this is a town role. Mafia tracker was Frisk's role in BMV fwiw.
I was also town tracker in BMMMMMM1 in which I back to back tracked mafia, and a town Tracker / Watcher / SuperCop in RM1.
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I suppose I could be called under the radar, although I posted when the whole debacle was going on. I'm okay with the YN lynch. Also okay with Watno, based on previous arguments. No new reads though.
I haven't understood the Frisk wagon, though. He hasn't been especially scummy this game.
Vote Count 3.9
shraeye (2) -- Insomniac, Young Nick
Young Nick (6) -- yuma, ashersky, Dsell, shraeye, Captain_Frisk, Morgrim7
ehunt (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (3) -- eHalcyon, Cuzz, theorel
sparky5856 (1) -- watno
ftl (1) -- sparky5856
Not Voting (5) -- O, ftl, Axxle, ehunt, jotheonah
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
Deadline is Thursday...it's Tuesday now. I figure we have time to get to the right place.
Is there no discussion t be had on Axxle? We've been giving the double voter (and hammer) a pass for awhile. He hasn't seemed especially scummy, I guess, but he could be a scum role.
Where's O?
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I am definitely suspicious of the people who we haven't heard from in a while. To me, that is morgrim, theorel, cuzz, axxle, o. Theorel definitely seems the worst to me.
His posts seem to lack a certain content and it feels like he is here but just not active.
I still find shraeye super scummy, but for now, his re-reads with commentary are too valuable to lose. I do fear that he is the new f.DS scum, being too helpful and thus avoiding suspicion. However, I can't back that up except with my gut.
So vote: theorel. His (/ibgtennis's) complete lack of posting has gotten out of hand.
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theorel requested a replacement. axxle hasn't been anywhere in awhile (see: cosmic encounter).
i'm definitely down with a lurkerlynch, though.
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I could switch to theorel. Lurker elimination is positive.
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yea, lurker lynch good lynch.
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Frisk has contributed so little in this game. I could be on board with lynching him, though I still find YN more outright scummy. I will wait for Frisk to arrive and defend himself (maybe he'll take it more seriously when he's about to be lynched) to place my vote anywhere else.
No defense planned. I'm a tracker. I tracked Yuma twice (3rd vote on wagons), got no result both times. I thought I had been roleblocked night 1, but after discussion with RobZ after night 2 - this answer is also consistent with the person taking no action - which is different than how tracker was handled in MXII - and how it was for other games I was in.
I can confirm this about me. If we aren't heading to a young nick lynch, which I am starting to become a little more torn about, I am ok with a vote: sparky See the case I posted on him a ways back... if I get some extra time I will repost it and add to it later...
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vote: theorel
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Your portrayal of non-certainty as scummy is ridiculous. Your post sounds almost like a threat, you know.
I did not portray non-certainty as scummy. That post is in no way a threat, and I have no idea how you got that impression.
You said your town read on me was dwindling because of my "hesitance to lynch YN". And just the tone of the whole thing makes it sound like a threat -- "lynch Nick now or else you are suspicious".
CF's claim in #472 is believable, except I don't see why he would track yuma twice. Or even once. After the d1 lynch, I think there were SO MANY better targets.
Watno #473, did Nick actually ask to be given the wine? I think maybe you misread something... or maybe I missed it, or have forgotten it. Which post number?
ashersky #477, mainly I just don't think CF's behaviour in this game has seemed town-like. The apathy in particular is odd to me. Also, I just can't see why he would track yuma.
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i'm 90% sure frisk is telling the truth, now that i think about it. can't say more atm.
vote: captain_frisk to indicate my current top town read. I really don't think he should be lynched.
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i'm 90% sure frisk is telling the truth, now that i think about it. can't say more atm.
vote: captain_frisk to indicate my current top town read. I really don't think he should be lynched.
Unvote, I guess. But now I have to ask, even if CF is telling the truth, how does that make him town?
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@CF, I would still like to know why you targeted yuma on n1 AND on n2.
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@CF, I would still like to know why you targeted yuma on n1 AND on n2.
I explained. I thought I was roleblocked N1. He was position 3 both nights. I don't care about the game so I didn't reread.
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@CF, I would still like to know why you targeted yuma on n1 AND on n2.
I explained. I thought I was roleblocked N1. He was position 3 both nights. I don't care about the game so I didn't reread.
Position 3... on scum wagons. Doesn't make sense to me. Do you think that third on a scum lynch is a scummy position?
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As far as scum knew, TheMunch was town.
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@CF, I would still like to know why you targeted yuma on n1 AND on n2.
I explained. I thought I was roleblocked N1. He was position 3 both nights. I don't care about the game so I didn't reread.
Position 3... on scum wagons. Doesn't make sense to me. Do you think that third on a scum lynch is a scummy position?
Also - I was assuming multi scum teams.
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Vote: eHalcyon
OMGUS, and plus he wants this too bad.
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Frisk if you are town you really ought to be doing better than OMGUS at this point. You don't have to reread to have better opinions than that, plus at this point everyone should be believing that both of us are either scum or both are town (mostly, with probably some small reservations on either side).
I could be up for a lurker lynch. It's probably best to direct YN and Frisk tonight. I can see not lynching them being best.
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As far as scum knew, TheMunch was town.
Sure, but Grujah was Mafia. At the end of d1, I think yuma was far from scummiest.
Also, after Munch flipped SK, multiple scum teams is no longer a good assumption, making yuma's d1 position on Grujah's lynch even townier. So why track him a second time? Even if roleblock was suspected, there were definitely way better targets.
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Vote: eHalcyon
OMGUS, and plus he wants this too bad.
Wow. I unvoted, and I am questioning claimed actions that seem suspicious to me. How does that constituting wanting it too bad?
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Frisk if you are town you really ought to be doing better than OMGUS at this point. You don't have to reread to have better opinions than that, plus at this point everyone should be believing that both of us are either scum or both are town (mostly, with probably some small reservations on either side).
I could be up for a lurker lynch. It's probably best to direct YN and Frisk tonight. I can see not lynching them being best.
I'll go back to YN if you prefer.
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Frisk if you are town you really ought to be doing better than OMGUS at this point. You don't have to reread to have better opinions than that, plus at this point everyone should be believing that both of us are either scum or both are town (mostly, with probably some small reservations on either side).
I could be up for a lurker lynch. It's probably best to direct YN and Frisk tonight. I can see not lynching them being best.
I'll go back to YN if you prefer.
how about sparky?
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Vote: Captain Frisk
Bad answers, bad reactions.
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Vote: Captain Frisk
Bad answers, bad reactions.
Truthful.
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What am I at?
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What am I at?
4, I think. But one of them is cayvie, who expressed a heavy town read on you. I still want to hear more about that.
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Looking into interaction between CF and yuma...
CF has said basically nothing at all today.
He said very little on day 2 as well. At the end he was caught up in the mass grilling of Munch.
There was this:
Wow Yuma, that is a lot of content for defending a vote on scum.
which was in response to yuma's #1612.
On d1 there was this:
Regarding the yuma wagon: Yuma is too smart for that to be scummy behavior.
I don't know... if CF targeted yuma, I'd expect more than that. Some indication of suspicion maybe.
And again, re-reading CF reminds me how little he has actually said this game despite a reasonable looking post count.
Vote: Captain_Frisk
I see nothing pro-town in his actions in the entirety of the game. He barely says anything about other players all day 1. He was not on the Grujah wagon, instead voting for O in #1449 only because he hadn't voted yet at that time. He did pretty much nothing all of day 2, until Munch because scummy as all heck.
He has similarly said very little on day 3. He voted shraeye early on, then theorel simply because theo analyzed wagons differently than he would have. Then he votes watno for not much at all (and suggests that it is partially "rvs"). And then he goes on about how he doesn't care and he won't even give any reads on other players.
His claimed night action just makes no sense to me. As we discussed thoroughly on d2, while multiple scum teams were possible it is still far more likely to catch scum OFF the wagon. CF even chimes in a bit about this on d2:
Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.
Today we get to do the opposite. Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?
I'm with you Galz. I'm off the wagon, and I absolutely think we should be looking there.
So why target yuma?
After Munch's flip, multiple scum teams seems even less likely, so yuma looks townier. While roleblocking on n1 was a possibility, "yuma did nothing" is also a possibility so why track yuma again?
None of it adds up to me.
I'll re-Vote: Captain_Frisk.
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The re-vote at the end of that post is because I forgot I had already voted before I elaborated on the case.
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Vote: C_F. eHalc has convinced me. He's lurked enough to be a fine target, and I for one do not buy his claim. Frisk is the master of fake claims. That's his meta.
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Frisk has contributed so little in this game. I could be on board with lynching him, though I still find YN more outright scummy. I will wait for Frisk to arrive and defend himself (maybe he'll take it more seriously when he's about to be lynched) to place my vote anywhere else.
No defense planned. I'm a tracker. I tracked Yuma twice (3rd vote on wagons), got no result both times. I thought I had been roleblocked night 1, but after discussion with RobZ after night 2 - this answer is also consistent with the person taking no action - which is different than how tracker was handled in MXII - and how it was for other games I was in.
We should maybe give yuma a chance to confirm this, but even so there's no reason to assume this is a town role. Mafia tracker was Frisk's role in BMV fwiw.
Even if he's telling the truth - that doesn't imply town.
And that same argument can be used against his own claim.
???
PPE: I've been here long enough to see a Frisk fake-claim myself (backup when he was WW in MIX). I am capable of believing that that's his meta.
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Vote: C_F. eHalc has convinced me. He's lurked enough to be a fine target, and I for one do not buy his claim. Frisk is the master of fake claims. That's his meta.
My fake claims are always so bad! I get killed immediately. This one isn't fake!
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For the record, Frisk didn't get killed immediately in MIX once he claimed. Anyone have any confirmations on #506, I'm certainly not experienced enough to give such.
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It feels immediate!
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Vote: C_F. eHalc has convinced me. He's lurked enough to be a fine target, and I for one do not buy his claim. Frisk is the master of fake claims. That's his meta.
My fake claims are always so bad! I get killed immediately. This one isn't fake!
Ahem...how long did your Cop Claim work in MX?
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Vote: C_F. eHalc has convinced me. He's lurked enough to be a fine target, and I for one do not buy his claim. Frisk is the master of fake claims. That's his meta.
My fake claims are always so bad! I get killed immediately. This one isn't fake!
Ahem...how long did your Cop Claim work in MX?
30 minutes?
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Vote: C_F. eHalc has convinced me. He's lurked enough to be a fine target, and I for one do not buy his claim. Frisk is the master of fake claims. That's his meta.
My fake claims are always so bad! I get killed immediately. This one isn't fake!
Ahem...how long did your Cop Claim work in MX?
30 minutes?
...into the night, then half of the next day before we finally lynched. That was my infamous delayed doctor counterclaim.
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Vote Count 3.10
Young Nick (3) -- Dsell, shraeye, Morgrim7
Captain_Frisk (8) -- Cuzz, theorel, Insomniac, sparky5856, cayvie, jotheonah, eHalcyon, ashersky {L-2}
sparky5856 (2) -- watno, yuma
theorel (1) -- Young Nick
eHalcyon (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (4) -- O, ftl, Axxle, ehunt,
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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I'm not loving the frisk lynch but I could go for it. He really has been a lurker content-wise and I'm starting to feel like his apathy is a survivalist tell.
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I'm not loving the frisk lynch but I could go for it. He really has been a lurker content-wise and I'm starting to feel like his apathy is a survivalist tell.
You mean an actual survivor? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Survivor
I'd punch RobZ in the kidneys for making me a survivor in a 25 person game.
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I'll Vote: C_F as long as he reamins unwilling to provide content.
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I'm far from the only one.
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Yes, but as I have learned, the fact that you have a wagon is important. Theorel, Axxle, Watno can be lynched at later points. At least they seem interested in helping when they have the time.
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Well I was gonna vote but I'm not ready to hammer yet. Unless anyone strongly objects, I'll hammer tonight, but I'd really like to see Frisk post some thoughts/content first.
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I have strong objecjections to hammering while 1) the wine is not confirmed to have been passed and 2) cayvie is still voting for Frisk because she is convinced that Frisk is town and telling the truth and claims she is only voting him to be able to use her ability.
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I have strong objecjections to hammering while 1) the wine is not confirmed to have been passed and 2) cayvie is still voting for Frisk because she is convinced that Frisk is town and telling the truth and claims she is only voting him to be able to use her ability.
strong agreement.
will treat frisk hammerer as scum if cayvie hasn't gotten a chance to unvote.
separately, i have a "believe all claims" problem that i need to work on, but frisk seems somewhat credible with his "i made a mistake and tracked yuma twice" business. but this is separate. more importantly, we need to deal with the wine and cayvie before there's a hammer.
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I have strong objecjections to hammering while 1) the wine is not confirmed to have been passed and 2) cayvie is still voting for Frisk because she is convinced that Frisk is town and telling the truth and claims she is only voting him to be able to use her ability.
strong agreement.
will treat frisk hammerer as scum if cayvie hasn't gotten a chance to unvote.
separately, i have a "believe all claims" problem that i need to work on, but frisk seems somewhat credible with his "i made a mistake and tracked yuma twice" business. but this is separate. more importantly, we need to deal with the wine and cayvie before there's a hammer.
I still contend that it wasn't a mistake. Look at the PM for tracker that is in MXII. My role PM gives me no such instructions regarding how a "No One" target is handled.
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Yes, I forgot about the cayvie thing. Absolutely will not hammer until that's taken care of, thank you for reminding me.
I'm really not sure what to make of Frisk either. I want to believe his claim because it would be terrible to lynch a claimed PR, but his actions in this game speak louder than his words.
If this were a while back, I would have probably believed Frisk about the tracker misunderstanding/mistake. But he knows very well that "something extra" like that gives a claim more believability and he's a good enough scum player to fake it.
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Wine target has been selected. Input on my decision was appreciated and may or may not have influenced my choice.
FWIW, Robz has told me that I can't use conditionals. That is, there are a few people who I think would be interesting targets and I would have liked to base the choice on the alignment of today's lynchee and whether or not these people are on the wagon. But the wine must be passed before the lynch happens, so I wouldn't have the info to make that switch.
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I'm still so confused about cayvie's role. I believe her, but it is so goofy. It almost seems bastard.
It would be crazy if she was fake-claiming this to remove suspicion from her. Considering that many have weird roles, she could have just made one up so she would never be on wagons.
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Watno #473, did Nick actually ask to be given the wine? I think maybe you misread something... or maybe I missed it, or have forgotten it. Which post number?
He did in #2357.
I still don't think it's a good idea to lynch Frisk today, especially if the reason for doing so is believing that he's faking his role. In that case, i don't see how he could keep that up if we make him post his results every day and check if they are true. Also, I think there's too much we might loose there. However, we agreed on the soft deadline and I don't think it would be a good idea to ignore that now either, since if we break our own rules, they don't mean anything anymore. So I don't think we can get around lynching him today really.
However, i think we should put the soft deadline later in future days. Two or even one day before the actual deadline should be enough.
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Watno #473, did Nick actually ask to be given the wine? I think maybe you misread something... or maybe I missed it, or have forgotten it. Which post number?
He did in #2357.
I still don't think it's a good idea to lynch Frisk today, especially if the reason for doing so is believing that he's faking his role. In that case, i don't see how he could keep that up if we make him post his results every day and check if they are true. Also, I think there's too much we might loose there. However, we agreed on the soft deadline and I don't think it would be a good idea to ignore that now either, since if we break our own rules, they don't mean anything anymore. So I don't think we can get around lynching him today really.
However, i think we should put the soft deadline later in future days. Two or even one day before the actual deadline should be enough.
I'm really failing at adding 2000 to post numbers in this new thread.
That Nick post isn't really saying "give me the wine". I think it's an idea for how he could be investigated and it presumes that he isn't lynched. The suggestion is still flawed, of course, in that he could be night killed after receiving the wine.
The reason for lynching Frisk is not that we believe he is faking the role. As has been noted, he has had a history of tracker roles through several games. Tracker does not necessarily mean town-aligned, and he was apparently a scum-aligned tracker at some point.
But again, the case is NOT that his claim is fake. It's that his tracking targets make no sense from a town-aligned position (there were scummier targets than yuma, especially after d2, and some of his own posts, which I've quoted, should have pointed him in a different direction), and he hasn't done anything pro-town this whole game.
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My tracks in bmm3 were not based on obv scum
Scum aren't going to choose obv scum to do the kills?
Who suspected ftl in bmmmm1 prior to me busting him
Ehalcs argument is bad and he should feel bad
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Lynch me for lurking and being a pain in the ass, but not poor targeting
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Lynch me for lurking and being a pain in the ass, but not poor targeting
You were an amazing tracker in BMMMMMMMMMM but targeting yuma twice? your better than that.
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Lynch me for lurking and being a pain in the ass, but not poor targeting
You were an amazing tracker in BMMMMMMMMMM but targeting yuma twice? your better than that.
So you think I'm lying? You want to lunch a town pr for poor decisions?
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My tracks in bmm3 were not based on obv scum
Scum aren't going to choose obv scum to do the kills?
Who suspected ftl in bmmmm1 prior to me busting him
Ehalcs argument is bad and he should feel bad
Targeting is only part of it.
This explanation doesn't work for targeting yuma a second time. Maybe you don't want to try to track obvscum, but tracking probtown? Really?
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And I should add -- who did you think was obvscum? I mean, really. Even those off the wagon weren't obvscum.
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Why is Yuma probtown?
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Man I wish I had some horse traders
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Lynch me for lurking and being a pain in the ass, but not poor targeting
You were an amazing tracker in BMMMMMMMMMM but targeting yuma twice? your better than that.
So you think I'm lying? You want to lunch a town pr for poor decisions?
Town PR is doubtful I only blindly believe claims on day 1 because there is no reason to doubt them.
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Mafia tracker then?
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Mafia tracker then?
Completely possible I mean a mafia tracker is essentially a rolecop you get to find out who's using their role. And scum want to kill town PRs and it could lead you to another scum team if there is one.
On the other hand you could be faking the claim but if that were the case why would you declare you tracked yuma twice except that its possible...WAIT A SECOND...when you claimed tracker were you drunk!?
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Man I wish I had some horse traders
Huh?
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OK, so, claimwise, YN and Frisk are roughly equivalent:
1. YN's decision to read Glooble's card didn't make a lot of sense.
2. Frisk's decision to track Yuma night one didn't make a lot of sense.
3. YN's decision to read DSell's card did make sense.
4. Frisk's decision to re-track Yuma, given that he thought he got roleblocked on N1, made some sense.
The difference is that we (more or less) know that YN really is a card-reader, and the only question is whether that's a town-aligned or scum-aligned role. The "more or less" is b/c he could be a ridiculously good guesser, or he could be scum-aligned with DSell (and DSell could foolishly have cooperated rather than bussing), both of which seem farfetched.
CF may just be lying in an attempt to out power role Yuma, with the added benefit that he looks epsilon better if Yuma actually didn't track anyone. His "mistake of tracking Yuma twice" does give him the benefit that he can put all his eggs in one basket if he's lucky-guessing. I think he is too bored with the game to make this stuff up, though.
Disclaimer: I know that Frisk is genuine when he claims to be bored with this game. Maybe a month ago, we played a game of Dominion on Isotropic in which we talked about MXIII and he mentioned "MIX is a pita" (that is all that was said about this game). This may be coloring my perception that he is telling the truth.
tl;dr I don't like either of those votes, or really any wagon at all, i sort of think everyone's town at this point, perhaps because everyone who's not is hyperlurking.
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erm, we talked about whichever M it was that just finished, not MVIII.
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erm, we talked about whichever M it was that just finished, not MVIII.
that would be M12 where Frisk mentioned this conversation because you told him the spec thread was very busy.
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Why is Yuma probtown?
Given that Munch flipped SK, it is probable that there is only one scum team. If there is only one scum team, yuma is probtown because he was basically the pivot that got the wagon rolling on a scum PR.
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Man I wish I had some horse traders
Huh?
Cause his opponent got all the minions, obvi.
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Wasn't drunk when claimed
Also you guys are leaving out the possibility that Yuma and I are both scum
Sheesh do I have to do all the work for you?
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Horse traders - to get rid of all of his tunelling!
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I'm still so confused about cayvie's role. I believe her, but it is so goofy. It almost seems bastard.
ding ding ding ding ding ding
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ugh, are we really lynching frisk?
i am certain that he is a tracker. do you really think he's a scum tracker?
unvote, vote: young nick to get him away from L-1
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OK, so, claimwise, YN and Frisk are roughly equivalent:
1. YN's decision to read Glooble's card didn't make a lot of sense.
2. Frisk's decision to track Yuma night one didn't make a lot of sense.
3. YN's decision to read DSell's card did make sense.
4. Frisk's decision to re-track Yuma, given that he thought he got roleblocked on N1, made some sense.
No, Frisk's decision to re-track Yuma makes less sense.
What is the logic against YN's choices? I really don't know what a card cop should be aiming for, especially if he's not told what the meaning is behind the cards (or if there is any meaning at all).
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Plus one million to cayvie
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ugh, are we really lynching frisk?
i am certain that he is a tracker. do you really think he's a scum tracker?
unvote, vote: young nick to get him away from L-1
...is Young Nick your biggest town read now?
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Why does it make less sense ehalc?
It was and still is plausible that there are multiple scum teams. Lynching scum, or serial killer is not necessarily townie.
Without spending hours to reread, Yuma seemed reasonable enough. Plus, assuming I was role blocked - I kinsof assumed the role locking would continue.
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pretty much, yes. i am in the unenviable position of having town reads on the two biggest suspects
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Why does it make less sense ehalc?
It was and still is plausible that there are multiple scum teams. Lynching scum, or serial killer is not necessarily townie.
Without spending hours to reread, Yuma seemed reasonable enough. Plus, assuming I was role blocked - I kinsof assumed the role locking would continue.
It is rather unlikely that there are multiple scum teams. There were three kills, and one of them was due to a lovers pair so there were two kills actually made. One of them was from an SK, leaving one for a scum team. It's possible that a second team chose not to kill, or was roleblocked, or the target was saved by doctor or jailkeeper or bulletproof or what have you. But in all likelihood, there is just one scum team remaining.
Why would you assume that roleblocking would continue, and why would that lead you to track yuma again?
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pretty much, yes. i am in the unenviable position of having town reads on the two biggest suspects
And is that based solely on role claims?
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Don't want to put frisk at L-1 but not allowed to hammer... :(
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Don't want to put frisk at L-1 but not allowed to hammer... :(
YOU'RE not allowed to hammer?
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Don't want to put frisk at L-1 but not allowed to hammer... :(
YOU'RE not allowed to hammer?
no, i'll be modkilled if I do... :(
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Single team plus Sk is going to make this game last forever.
Why role locked again? Why not? It didn't lead me to track Yuma again - it led me to not think very hard about t.
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Don't want to put frisk at L-1 but not allowed to hammer... :(
YOU'RE not allowed to hammer?
no, i'll be modkilled if I do... :(
Plus one to robz!
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Don't want to put frisk at L-1 but not allowed to hammer... :(
YOU'RE not allowed to hammer?
no, i'll be modkilled if I do... :(
Plus one to robz!
:'(
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pretty much, yes. i am in the unenviable position of having town reads on the two biggest suspects
And is that based solely on role claims?
man, you really want to know what my role is, huh
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pretty much, yes. i am in the unenviable position of having town reads on the two biggest suspects
And is that based solely on role claims?
man, you really want to know what my role is, huh
Not exactly. It's just odd because earlier today you said that Nick was your only scum read.
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indeed, his claim hardcore influenced my opinion of his alignment
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indeed, his claim hardcore influenced my opinion of his alignment
But I don't think you mentioned it until now. How do you feel about Cuzz's claim then? Who are your other town reads?
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/goes back and checks what cuzz's claim was again
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/goes back and checks what cuzz's claim was again
It was kind of a weird situation, but he claims to have obtained (in an unspecified manner) the description for one of you, shraeye and ashersky. He felt certain that the description belonged to a vanilla townie and by process of elimination decided that that VT was ashersky. And then some drama ensued and Robz locked the thread temporarily. I think this summary is accurate.
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oh, that thing
*shrug* i dunno, could be anything. not a strong read based on that.
other town reads
ehunt, morgrim now
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pretty much, yes. i am in the unenviable position of having town reads on the two biggest suspects
how do you feel about sparky?
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oh, that thing
*shrug* i dunno, could be anything. not a strong read based on that.
other town reads
ehunt, morgrim now
And scum reads?
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oh, that thing
*shrug* i dunno, could be anything. not a strong read based on that.
other town reads
ehunt, morgrim now
And scum reads?
none atm, i suspect they're lurking? theorel (even with the replacement request), new O maybe?
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i like how sparky is playing, he actually seems to be trying. doesn't mean he's town, of course, but it is definitely a plus.
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yay i'm trying
to lurk
Problem that I have with all of this claiming, what are the odds that ALL of it is true? I actually should be more specific, what are the odds that ALL of the claimants are town?
I actually am more inclined to believe given all this discussions today that someone who investigates descriptions is more likely to be scum than someone who investigates cards. It's a weak theory but I'll see in the future if it's worth thinking about again.
How about this I'll vote Morgrim if he doesn't hammer
I actually suspect yuma to be probtown. All this hardcore tunneling of me is unusual for scum. From my perspective, I don't see why scum would want me dead. I haven't been playing that well >_<
I haven't seen much recently from these people!
ftl
O(2)
Axxle
Cuzz
theorel
Morgrim has also been skimpish on unique info to add.
I know Axxle is IRL busy, so is shraeye.
But lurkers seriously hurt.
Are we going to leave Captain_Frisk to survive the night too? I'm still down with him but I'm also down for a lurker lynch at this point.
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Alright fine I have been convinced... Let's head down the Frisk road.
vote: Captain_Frisk
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Alright fine I have been convinced... Let's head down the Frisk road.
vote: Captain_Frisk
Reason?
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yay i'm trying to lurk
Problem that I have with all of this claiming, what are the odds that ALL of it is true? I actually should be more specific, what are the odds that ALL of the claimants are town?
how many scum do you think there are? the setup (i would guess) was 1 scumteam and a SK. how big would you say the team was? 5? 6?
i would guess that, with 19 alive, 4 or 5 of us are scum.
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Here is a post that I compiled late day 2 in regard to you and many others.
CaptainFrisk - Looking through day 2=no content. Basically he just suggests to look off wagon and analyze who didn't help lynch and WHY? But never actually looks off wagon himself. So let's look at why he didn't vote Grujah. Frisk was certainly online during the Grujah lynch. He voted for O (the only vote at the time) at L-4 because O hadn't voted for anyone yet so close to the deadline. Frisk says absolutely nothing about Grujah. Nil. Previous to his O vote he was voting shraeye for getting angry. Previous and prior to that he has a lot of helpful posts, vote count analysis, summaries for Young Nick, the electing a lyncher idea, helping with plurality, but not much substance
At the time my biggest scum reads were on TheMunch, Dsell and Young Nick... but I mentioned you, jot, voltaire and one other I think... as people I would be willing to lynch. My read on you from that day has not changed.
as for today:
1- I didn't like your "RVS" vote on Watno;
2- I didn't like your "caring about this game is a scumtell." I care about this game, I am not scum. Galz cared about this game, he was not scum
3- I was giving you some credit for being accurate about your tracking abilities, but have been convinced by eHal that choosing me twice when I was obviously not even on your radar--nor do I believe that I should have been on either day--wasn't sound unless you actually thought I was a power role and was trying to pinpoint me using a power. But that isn't the big reason. It was the reason I wasn't voting for you before, but now have been convinced otherwise.
The other 2 reasons along with my analysis of you above in regard to your day 1 behavior in relation to Grujah is enough for me.
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I want to see Morgrim hammer just for the comedic relief.
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Alright fine I have been convinced... Let's head down the Frisk road.
vote: Captain_Frisk
Reason?
LOL
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I want to see Morgrim hammer just for the comedic relief.
hasn't he claimed priest?
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So Yuma, you legit think I'm a scum tracker?
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The best case I've seen is that I'm a bad townie, which is not really a good reason to lynch day 3
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Should I make anything out of the fact that Frisk has been a LOT more active ever since he's been on the chopping block or no? (I remember being the same way in both my scum games.)
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Should I make anything out of the fact that Frisk has been a LOT more active ever since he's been on the chopping block or no? (I remember being the same way in both my scum games.)
how do you think he would act as town power role in this sitch?
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So Yuma, you legit think I'm a scum tracker?
I think it is just as plausible as town tracker. Perhaps even less so when I look at your two tracks on me.
and my case on you isn't just that you were a bad townie, if so you are misinterpreting my post. It is looking at your relationship to a confirmed scum, Grujah, you had no participation with him and voted for a confirmed townie instead of him at a time when his wagon was taking off.
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The best case I've seen is that I'm a bad townie, which is not really a good reason to lynch day 3
I thought day 3 was still RVS....
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So Yuma, you legit think I'm a scum tracker?
I think it is just as plausible as town tracker. Perhaps even less so when I look at your two tracks on me.
and my case on you isn't just that you were a bad townie, if so you are misinterpreting my post. It is looking at your relationship to a confirmed scum, Grujah, you had no participation with him and voted for a confirmed townie instead of him at a time when his wagon was taking off.
Did Frisk have any interaction with his scumbuddy O in MIX?
Should I make anything out of the fact that Frisk has been a LOT more active ever since he's been on the chopping block or no? (I remember being the same way in both my scum games.)
how do you think he would act as town power role in this sitch?
Similarly probably, but he would absolutely act like this as scum. He realizes he and his scum team are in trouble and it's probably too late. I actually think if he was town he would be a bit less active than he is now.
But man, he's lurked as both town and scum, which doesn't make this easy.
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Did Frisk have any interaction with his scumbuddy O in MIX?
frisk lurked hardcore Day 1 in MIX. i think O got annoyed at him. then O died N1.
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We've already lynched 2 scum, so we are doing well. I'm out to the night. I trust cayvie.
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I want to see Morgrim hammer just for the comedic relief.
hasn't he claimed priest?
Exactly my point. It was a feeble attempt at Mafia-humor.
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gah, here's a meta-argument.
robz was there, scum with him, when frisk nearly quit forum mafia because he was scum in 3 games simultaneously.
do you really think robz would make him scum here? alignments aren't random.
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Did Frisk have any interaction with his scumbuddy O in MIX?
frisk lurked hardcore Day 1 in MIX. i think O got annoyed at him. then O died N1.
This is accurate.
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I thought robz said alignment was random, but role was not.
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yay i'm trying to lurk
Problem that I have with all of this claiming, what are the odds that ALL of it is true? I actually should be more specific, what are the odds that ALL of the claimants are town?
how many scum do you think there are? the setup (i would guess) was 1 scumteam and a SK. how big would you say the team was? 5? 6?
i would guess that, with 19 alive, 4 or 5 of us are scum.
Missed this question.
We're assuming 1 scumteam at this point. Plus the SK. I've never played a game this big before, so I can only estimate. 13 in MXII had a 3-man scum team with a SK possible... so maybe a 6-man scum team here? That would leave 5 left for us to hunt.
Given that we have a bigger town, of course we're going to have more claims that are true. It's possible that all of them are beneficial to town. But I find that too fishy at the moment.
I thought robz said alignment was random, but role was not.
This game is open to anyone, and all will be accommodated. However, it is most highly encouraged that veteran players involve themselves in this game. That's because ROLES AND ALIGNMENTS WILL NOT BE CHOSEN ENTIRELY RANDOMLY. Rather, they will be tweaked and tailored to fit the Forum Games personalities of each player.
So... this is an inconclusive observation. I don't think we can gather anything from this.
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Vote Count 3.11
Young Nick (4) -- Dsell, shraeye, Morgrim7, cayvie
Captain_Frisk (9) -- Cuzz, theorel, Insomniac, sparky5856, jotheonah, eHalcyon, ashersky, Young Nick, yuma {L-1}
sparky5856 (1) -- watno
eHalcyon (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (4) -- O, ftl, Axxle, ehunt,
With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch. Day 3 lynch deadline is Thursday, October 25th, at 7:00 PM EDT.
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Did Frisk have any interaction with his scumbuddy O in MIX?
frisk lurked hardcore Day 1 in MIX. i think O got annoyed at him. then O died N1.
This is accurate.
Do you have any input, O? Thoughts on CF, Young Nick? You are clearly still following along, but you haven't really said anything at all today.
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I don't really have very strong opinions as to which of the two to lynch. I'd be happy to lynch either but i get the feeling i shouldn't hammer right now.
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Did Frisk have any interaction with his scumbuddy O in MIX?
frisk lurked hardcore Day 1 in MIX. i think O got annoyed at him. then O died N1.
This is accurate.
they were also both in MVIII. they had very little day one interaction, again because of the frisklurkage. then O expressed intent to vote for him (when he was up for lynch) although he didn't actually do so (although he probably didn't actually do so due to irl reasons)
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Ok, I just came back and am catching up. I've only read up to #520 by this post, so let me see what my conclusions are so far.
Yeah, his cardcop role is proven (he knew my card), but that doesn't make him town. I think he's been very scummy, has had some periods of lurkiness, defended Grujah, and I don't think his role makes him any less scummy, especially since we know that the SK's card was from a set that many townies don't come from.
how does that logic make any sense, Dsell?
surely if alignment is correlated to set, that makes him far less likely to be scum.
I believe, but do not know, that we are all from Intrigue except for Munch. It seems too obvious otherwise. What if we'd just set-claimed or card-claimed day 1? I suppose it is possible since that would make YN a weaker cop. But eeeeh I don't know.
This is exactly how I feel. I don't understand how people could say that YN's claim being true completely clears him. It disappoints me that this wagon unbuilt so quickly; THE REASON HE WAS HARD TO LYNCH AND THE LAST FEW VOTES WEREN'T COMING IN, was because he is scum. And his partners didn't want another scum lynched. We have got to get this thing started up again.
I suppose I could be called under the radar, although I posted when the whole debacle was going on. I'm okay with the YN lynch. Also okay with Watno, based on previous arguments. No new reads though.
I haven't understood the Frisk wagon, though. He hasn't been especially scummy this game.
Is there no discussion t be had on Axxle? We've been giving the double voter (and hammer) a pass for awhile. He hasn't seemed especially scummy, I guess, but he could be a scum role.
Where's O?
I also don't understand the Frisk wagon. I'm ok with Frisk right now (ok, as in I want him around, and don't think he's a good lynch at all). Axxle is somebody i've found suspicious, and he could be my #2 lynch right now. No idea where O is.
Watno #473, did Nick actually ask to be given the wine? I think maybe you misread something... or maybe I missed it, or have forgotten it. Which post number?
I think this is your answer
Also, I believe my description makes me clearly town. Whoever has the wine (Dsell) could give me the wine and then see my description. This fails if the Mafia kill him tonight, but if they don't I think that he would confirm me as town.
Even this seems scummy to me. Why does YN not analyze the option of mafia killing him in the night? The only answer I can come up with is because he is in the mafia!
Vote: Captain Frisk
Bad answers, bad reactions.
No, I agree with Frisk here. These answers don't sound bad, they just sound like honest truth to me. I don't know why people are so excited about this lynch??
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Why is Yuma probtown?
Given that Munch flipped SK, it is probable that there is only one scum team. If there is only one scum team, yuma is probtown because he was basically the pivot that got the wagon rolling on a scum PR.
This I agree with. I think there is 1 scumteam out there, I think yuma is probtown. (But I buy that he could have been a crazy busser as a theory, Frisk tracking yuma is suspicious, but not damning.)
ugh, are we really lynching frisk?
i am certain that he is a tracker. do you really think he's a scum tracker?
unvote, vote: young nick to get him away from L-1
...is Young Nick your biggest town read now?
God I hope not. YoungNick is seriously the scummiest person out there right now. It frustrates me greatly that the wagon here just melted away.
indeed, his claim hardcore influenced my opinion of his alignment
Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue. But think about this. That is a pretty weak way to find the SK. You have to have enough investigations under your belt (maybe 2 or 3, since I did this with 2 results and my own descrip) that you can connect the dots and guess that the Jester is the SK. This cop-role becomes more useful and powerful if it belongs to a scummember, as he starts the game knowing many more cards (No idea how many scum there are, the number 5 seems probable to me, 1 down so 4 are left) and will be able to discern the pattern immediately. His cop-role is a scum-role. That's the facts, people.
yay i'm trying to lurk
Problem that I have with all of this claiming, what are the odds that ALL of it is true? I actually should be more specific, what are the odds that ALL of the claimants are town?
I actually am more inclined to believe given all this discussions today that someone who investigates descriptions is more likely to be scum than someone who investigates cards. It's a weak theory but I'll see in the future if it's worth thinking about again.
How about this I'll vote Morgrim if he doesn't hammer
I actually suspect yuma to be probtown. All this hardcore tunneling of me is unusual for scum. From my perspective, I don't see why scum would want me dead. I haven't been playing that well >_<
I haven't seen much recently from these people!
ftl
O(2)
Axxle
Cuzz
theorel
Morgrim has also been skimpish on unique info to add.
I know Axxle is IRL busy, so is shraeye.
But lurkers seriously hurt.
Are we going to leave Captain_Frisk to survive the night too? I'm still down with him but I'm also down for a lurker lynch at this point.
The odds that all claims are true is high, I think claims thus far have been legitimate (i'm talking about Cuzz's info, YN's power, Frisk as tracker). But I think there's no way they all are town. YN is most certainly scum, why why why why are we not lynching him?? Frisk's claim and Cuzz's claim tie for the most believable for town-aligned right now. They both have conspiracy-theory possibilities of being scum (Frisk tracking Yuma is an odd choice, but if he wanted Yuma tracked, I don't think tracking twice is odd since he thought he was roleblocked) (plus your theory on Cuzz, which is theoretically possible, but something I don't believe at all right now)
Also, also also, sparky. What in the world do you mean by this?????
Are we going to leave Captain_Frisk to survive the night too?
I don't like that you are considering who "we" are going to let survive the night. This is a very very scummy statement.
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My summary.
Lynches I want:
YoungNick (superscummy),
sparky(prettyscummy),
Axxle(mediumscummy,lurker)
Lynches I'm ok with:
Insomniac (recall vague suspicion on, lurking),
O (lurk),
ftl (lurk, recall suspicion from previous days),
theorel (lurking/wants out),
morgrim (I recall suspicion on Morgrim as well)
Lynches that I keep flipping back and forth in my mind on:
eHalcyon(either supersuper sly scum, or very helpful/forceful/oft-misguided town),
cayvie (I don't get her leaks about the power, i've pointed out inconsistencies in the past)
Lynches I don't want:
Frisk (lurks but not crazily/tracker),
ehunt(up front about wine/helpful),
watno(helpful/not easily swayed by flimsy arguments and popular wagons),
cuzz(cop that does description stuff)
Lynches I would actively oppose:
Dsell (towntown),
ashersky(stuff with cuzz lines up with asher's playstyle i think),
yuma(probtown),
jotheonah(made the biggest townslip I think ive ever seen)
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Also, also also, sparky. What in the world do you mean by this?????
Are we going to leave Captain_Frisk to survive the night too?
I don't like that you are considering who "we" are going to let survive the night. This is a very very scummy statement.
Poorly worded, you're right. Should have been "to survive TO the night". There's multiple people opposed to the Frisk lynch and I wanted an official consensus on what the plan was. More of a rhetorical question really so idk why I even bothered to ask it. I still think Frisk is the scummiest of the claimants though. I want YN around some more, his ability can be useful.
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Vote: Captain Frisk
Bad answers, bad reactions.
No, I agree with Frisk here. These answers don't sound bad, they just sound like honest truth to me. I don't know why people are so excited about this lynch??
eHalc started the wagon on him; he didn't like his random votes and lurkerish activities. Everyone else sheeped and baa-ed. My vote was a mix of analysis and sheeping.
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This I agree with. I think there is 1 scumteam out there, I think yuma is probtown. (But I buy that he could have been a crazy busser as a theory, Frisk tracking yuma is suspicious, but not damning.)
indeed, his claim hardcore influenced my opinion of his alignment
Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue. But think about this. That is a pretty weak way to find the SK. You have to have enough investigations under your belt (maybe 2 or 3, since I did this with 2 results and my own descrip) that you can connect the dots and guess that the Jester is the SK. This cop-role becomes more useful and powerful if it belongs to a scummember, as he starts the game knowing many more cards (No idea how many scum there are, the number 5 seems probable to me, 1 down so 4 are left) and will be able to discern the pattern immediately. His cop-role is a scum-role. That's the facts, people.
I can't believe that you are ignoring the possibility that Mafia could have cards outside of Intrigue. If not for theMunch revealing his card, we would not have even known that it belonged to him. And now, after theMunch is dead, I basically come a VT according to you?
Why is it so complicated? I just am a cop that takes a few days to realize that he's actually a cop.
The only good reason I can think of is that you are Mafia and your card is from Intrigue, and maybe your fellow Mafia-members have non-Intrigue cards, as well.
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indeed, his claim hardcore influenced my opinion of his alignment
Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue. But think about this. That is a pretty weak way to find the SK. You have to have enough investigations under your belt (maybe 2 or 3, since I did this with 2 results and my own descrip) that you can connect the dots and guess that the Jester is the SK. This cop-role becomes more useful and powerful if it belongs to a scummember, as he starts the game knowing many more cards (No idea how many scum there are, the number 5 seems probable to me, 1 down so 4 are left) and will be able to discern the pattern immediately. His cop-role is a scum-role. That's the facts, people.
I can't believe that you are ignoring the possibility that Mafia could have cards outside of Intrigue. If not for theMunch revealing his card, we would not have even known that it belonged to him. And now, after theMunch is dead, I basically come a VT according to you?
Why is it so complicated? I just am a cop that takes a few days to realize that he's actually a cop.
The only good reason I can think of is that you are Mafia and your card is from Intrigue, and maybe your fellow Mafia-members have non-Intrigue cards, as well.
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Above is what 2603 should look like.
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This is exactly how I feel. I don't understand how people could say that YN's claim being true completely clears him. It disappoints me that this wagon unbuilt so quickly; THE REASON HE WAS HARD TO LYNCH AND THE LAST FEW VOTES WEREN'T COMING IN, was because he is scum. And his partners didn't want another scum lynched. We have got to get this thing started up again.
Likewise, CF's claim being true doesn't clear him either.
The reason he was hard to lynch was not because he is scum. It's because his lynch occurred a fair amount of time before deadline and people still wanted to talk. That, and the case against him is far from a slam dunk. Don't make false assumptions.
I do think Nick is scummy. If he reaches L-1, I would be happy to hammer. I still prefer the CF lynch though.
I also don't understand the Frisk wagon. I'm ok with Frisk right now (ok, as in I want him around, and don't think he's a good lynch at all). Axxle is somebody i've found suspicious, and he could be my #2 lynch right now. No idea where O is.
Why are you OK with Frisk? Solely because of his tracker claim? Refer back to your statement about Nick's claim. If it weren't for that, how would you feel about him? Show me anything pro-town in his play.
What have you found suspicious about Axxle? My only argument against him right now is his lurking. He still has residual townie points in my book from hammering Grujah with his doublevote.
No, I agree with Frisk here. These answers don't sound bad, they just sound like honest truth to me. I don't know why people are so excited about this lynch??
So you think double-tracking yuma makes sense? And what about his reaction in voting for me? You think day 3 is still OK to RVS and OMGUS?
Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue.
Why do you think Mafia would have Intrigue cards? There's no reason to think that.
eHalcyon(either supersuper sly scum, or very helpful/forceful/oft-misguided town),
This is a terrible characterization of me. Where have I been misguided? Give me a quote. The only one you could argue is that I have thought you were scum, but that one is unverifiable. And you could bring up the Munch-Grujah interaction again, but dude, you are on the wrong side of that one. You are the only one arguing your point in that debate -- be a bit more humble about it.
As I have already stated, some things you have said now make me think you are town. But I'm not fully sold. With that presupposition, though, I would argue that you have been one of the most misguided in this game. First, there is your constantly flipping position on me. That's unverifiable, sure, but then you also say Dsell is "towntown" and Dsell and I have basically cleared each other. Where were you on the Grujah wagon? And remember when you expressed absolute certainty that Munch was town? And just today you expressed 100% certainty that jo was town, which you have since 180'd on. I mean, seriously. I could give more examples but I'll leave it at that.
You can say that I am forceful but I am happy to admit that my reads are not 100%. I don't say I am certain unless I am actually certain.
You can disagree with me all you want, but my track record so far is definitively better than yours. Unless you want to claim modconfirmed info (and this is rhetorical; I'm not trying to fish) then your reads are just plain reads. You can't call me misguided just because I have a different opinion. Doing so is incredibly egotistical, and that supercilious attitude has not been earned.
Yeah I will rail on this. Your arrogance is rage-enducing.
eHalcyon(either supersuper sly scum, or very helpful/forceful/oft-misguided town),
cayvie (I don't get her leaks about the power, i've pointed out inconsistencies in the past)
Elaborate, please. And link to inconsistencies. I have had some thoughts about cayvie but I am content to leave it alone for now. But I wouldn't mind reading some others' thoughts about it.
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Thanks, eHalc, for venting so well. It is true, his play is rage-inducing. We were all so much friendlier while he was away.
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Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue.
why?
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oh hey, ehal also asking about it.
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Thanks, eHalc, for venting so well. It is true, his play is rage-inducing. We were all so much friendlier while he was away.
Cripes, I spelled "inducing" wrong. That's how rage-inducing it was. :P
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Why are you OK with Frisk? Solely because of his tracker claim? Refer back to your statement about Nick's claim. If it weren't for that, how would you feel about him? Show me anything pro-town in his play.
What have you found suspicious about Axxle? My only argument against him right now is his lurking. He still has residual townie points in my book from hammering Grujah with his doublevote.
I recall doing an anaylsis of Frisk before, he wasn't so bad then. He's helpful in his own way I feel. I just read up more than 20 pages of various mafia threads, so I don't have the energy to go searching for stuff on CF.
I know I did an analysis on Axxle earlier in Day 3. Check it out.
No, I agree with Frisk here. These answers don't sound bad, they just sound like honest truth to me. I don't know why people are so excited about this lynch??
So you think double-tracking yuma makes sense? And what about his reaction in voting for me? You think day 3 is still OK to RVS and OMGUS?
I don't think he's making the best decisions regarding his votes, but it's not scumminess. I think double-tracking yuma makes sense. CF has explained this, I explained this, possibly others have as well.
Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue.
Why do you think Mafia would have Intrigue cards? There's no reason to think that.
Yet I do. We don't have confirmation as to who the Coppersmith card came from, so I see a 1/3 chance that it was Grujah's.
eHalcyon(either supersuper sly scum, or very helpful/forceful/oft-misguided town),
This is a terrible characterization of me. Where have I been misguided? Give me a quote. The only one you could argue is that I have thought you were scum, but that one is unverifiable. And you could bring up the Munch-Grujah interaction again, but dude, you are on the wrong side of that one. You are the only one arguing your point in that debate -- be a bit more humble about it.
As I have already stated, some things you have said now make me think you are town. But I'm not fully sold. With that presupposition, though, I would argue that you have been one of the most misguided in this game. First, there is your constantly flipping position on me. That's unverifiable, sure, but then you also say Dsell is "towntown" and Dsell and I have basically cleared each other. Where were you on the Grujah wagon? And remember when you expressed absolute certainty that Munch was town? And just today you expressed 100% certainty that jo was town, which you have since 180'd on. I mean, seriously. I could give more examples but I'll leave it at that.
But yet it's my characterization of you, apologies if this upsets you. This is *my* summary of *my* opinions. Forgive me if I like to agree with my own opinions, but when I'm thinking one thing and someone else thinks something opposed there are two major possibilities (of course we both could be equally wrong or true, a situation recently occured like this during a ride to the airport): either I am convinced of their opinion and admit wrongness (this is something I actually do), or I am not convinced of their opinion and continue to think I am correct. In the second situation I have two ways to characterize their "false" opinion. It is either intentional deviousness, or misguided but honest.
I'll talk humbleness with you when you stop making posts like "i've been trusting my instincts this game, and they've been working out great, so lay off me."
I forgot about Dsell clearing you with the wine, I'll take his opinion of you into consideration. As for me, I missed the Grujah wagon. Also, I did express absolute certainty that Munch was town. Then I figured out taht he was SK. I never once thought he was mafia during day 2. With regard to joth, I was really sure he was scum based on analysis, and then he made a post that convinced me otherwise. I have not "since flipped on my 100% town read" townread has been there since I made it.
You can disagree with me all you want, but my track record so far is definitively better than yours. Unless you want to claim modconfirmed info (and this is rhetorical; I'm not trying to fish) then your reads are just plain reads. You can't call me misguided just because I have a different opinion. Doing so is incredibly egotistical, and that supercilious attitude has not been earned.
sorry, next time I'll wait until I earn my supercilious attitude by having a good track record that I continually talk about.
eHalcyon(either supersuper sly scum, or very helpful/forceful/oft-misguided town),
cayvie (I don't get her leaks about the power, i've pointed out inconsistencies in the past)
Elaborate, please. And link to inconsistencies. I have had some thoughts about cayvie but I am content to leave it alone for now. But I wouldn't mind reading some others' thoughts about it.
In the past few hours, I've read through more than 30 pages of Mafia-stuff and I don't feel like digging up old things I've said. You'll find inconsistencies about cayvie's stuff in my posts, go and look.
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Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue.
why?
I think that cards lining up with alignments out of sets would have been too straightforward. I recall reading deviousness into Robz's tone when he was saying that the cards would have some effect
Card: Each player will be dealt a card from Dominion. It doesn’t do anything; you just have it. You will not be told whether multiple people can have the same Card. Whether a player’s Card corresponds to anything else about him is for you to determine.
I think there is something in the mechanics based around the cards (recall that the Jester "copied" abilities to some degree), and that virtually all of them (SK excluded) come from Intrigue. I mean this is the "Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade" mafia thread, right? The mafia-title is a pretty big component of why I'm sure the cards are all from Intrigue, and have a deeper meaning that we haven't hit yet. For Robz to breadcrumb Intrigue that hard, and then have cards only be a way of checking alignment just seems too facetious for him.
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Sheesh, this is townie-on-townie here. I guess I don't feel quite as confident saying that for Shraeye, but you are both bad lynches for today. So let's work together to find scum rather than bickering.
I am up for YN or Frisk, but I like the YN lynch better. I kinda forget about sparky, I'd maybe sheep Shraeye and go for that lynch. Could be ok with Axxle, ftl, theorel, or O for lurking because I think there's just decent odds of finding scum in there, but I don't love those lynches as much. Especially theorel because he seems slightly townier and O because I mostly REALLY want him to come back and contribute; I feel I can read him better than most.
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Thanks, eHalc, for venting so well. It is true, his play is rage-inducing. We were all so much friendlier while he was away.
I've been rage-induceing at times I know (I *did* post #2610 after all), but if my lynch-summary in #2600 is your evidence that things were friendly until I came back, I'm not sure how genuine your last sentence is.
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I am up for YN or Frisk, but I like the YN lynch better. I kinda forget about sparky, I'd maybe sheep Shraeye and go for that lynch. Could be ok with Axxle, ftl, theorel, or O for lurking because I think there's just decent odds of finding scum in there, but I don't love those lynches as much. Especially theorel because he seems slightly townier and O because I mostly REALLY want him to come back and contribute; I feel I can read him better than most.
this is the sort of thing that we could benefit from multiple people doing. We could see what lynches are viable, which is really hard to guage in a group this big.
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I could do FTL, Frisk, theorel, O. Won't do sparky, probably won't do Axxle (though I'd like to see more participation there). Don't LOVE the YN lynch, though shraeye is closer to convincing me it's all about finding the SK, it still seems like a very townish claim, UNLIKE Frisk's.
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Jo, tell me more about the distinction between Frisk's claim and YN's claim in your mind.
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Sure. Frisk claimed tracker, a role that could be town or scum.
YN claimed card cop, a role that AS FAR AS WE kNOW, is closer to an alignment cop than a role cop, so it makes no sense as a scum power.
Frisk claimed to have tracked yuma twice after getting no result the first time and has offered, in my opinion, unconvincing reasons for that odd choice.
YN's target claims make more sense to me, and pretty well verify he's telling the truth.
Frisk could be a scum traker. Or he could not be a tracker at all and be on a scum team with yuma. Or he could not be a tracker at all and known yuma took no actions some other way. Or he could have made a lucky guess. With the latter, it makes sense for him to have targeted the same person twice because that's less chances to guess wrong.
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Ugh, how many times do I have to say that it looks like card-cop was a role specifically designed to find SK. I think scum also have cards from Intrigue.
why?
I think that cards lining up with alignments out of sets would have been too straightforward. I recall reading deviousness into Robz's tone when he was saying that the cards would have some effect
Card: Each player will be dealt a card from Dominion. It doesn’t do anything; you just have it. You will not be told whether multiple people can have the same Card. Whether a player’s Card corresponds to anything else about him is for you to determine.
I think there is something in the mechanics based around the cards (recall that the Jester "copied" abilities to some degree), and that virtually all of them (SK excluded) come from Intrigue. I mean this is the "Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade" mafia thread, right? The mafia-title is a pretty big component of why I'm sure the cards are all from Intrigue, and have a deeper meaning that we haven't hit yet. For Robz to breadcrumb Intrigue that hard, and then have cards only be a way of checking alignment just seems too facetious for him.
This is so baseless. You could also make the argument that because we are in the Courtyard Masquerade, and that Mafia usually come from elsewhere, that scum should have a non-Intrigue card. If you would just take a moment to step back, you would realize how valid my card-theory is. I think mine makes much more sense than yours. I acknowledge that yours could be right, but I doubt. My ability is so weak. It is already over for the rest of the game. It was so very unlikely to have an effect. You are basically saying my role gave me what could have been very-hard-to-read information on a single person and that, if not for theMunch's mod-quoting, would have remained an uncertainty throughout the game. I jus don't believe that robz would give me a role that applies to only 1 out of 25 players in the game.
Also, regarding this:
Yet I do. We don't have confirmation as to who the Coppersmith card came from, so I see a 1/3 chance that it was Grujah's.
I already said I have reason to believe that Coppersmith belonged to Eevee. I am not saying I have guaranteed information when I don't (ahem, Cuzz), but I am reasonably confident based on Glooble's card.
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I'd be down to lynch C_F, theorel, shraeye, watno, O.......Axxle, joth in that order. The break representing people who I would vote for right now and others that I would need a little bit of convincing before voting for them.
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@shraeye #610
Re-reading you to find those posts.
I reread some of [shraeye's] D2, and a lot of his posts are pretty good, when he's not being condescending.
Ugh, this is true and hits home. I will work on being less abrasive.
What happened to this sentiment?
Your post on CF is #80, which is pretty sparse despite its length and ends with a "slight scum read".
Your post on Axxle is #275, which you end with a "mild scum read". How did he jump to one of the scummiest? And note that one of your arguments (that his day 2 contributions were weak) applies just as much to CF, and continues to apply to CF on day 3. So again, the main case against him is lurkiness.
Your post on cayvie is #387. Nothing particularly interesting there. I already asked the first question, and cayvie had answered it (#385). And maybe you read cayvie's "horrible suggestion" post wrong. She qualified it with "if you're town". Do you not think that it would be horrible of town Munch to encourage cayvie to hammer him?
Aaaand that's it.
CF has explained why he double-tracked yuma, and I contend that the explanation is inadequate. Your explanation is likewise inadequate; you even admit that the initial choice was odd. The repeat is even odder given the knowledge from Munch's flip.
Yes, we get that you believe that scum also have Intrigue cards. But we don't have anything like confirmation of that. There is a 1/3 chance that Coppersmith belonged to Grujah, which is not a good reason to think that all but the SK are from Intrigue. Additionally, even if Grujah had an Intrigue card, that does not mean that all the other scum are from Intrigue as well. Your initial theory about the cards was great and has helped me come up with some ideas as well, but you are making far too many assumptions with no reason.
I'll talk humbleness with you when you stop making posts like "i've been trusting my instincts this game, and they've been working out great, so lay off me."
I haven't claimed that I've been humble in this game. But I have been willing to consider others' opinions even when they conflict with my original reads. I have allowed room for error in my cases. You, on the other hand, act as if you have perfect knowledge and insight into everything even though it is demonstrable that you have made multiple errors in judgement. You continue to express certainty on subjects which in this same day you were "certain" about the exact opposite.
And to top it all off, you speak as if everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.
On specifics, I didn't say you thought Munch was Mafia. But you were certain he was town. And then you flipped on it.
I typo'd the point about jo; my bad. You were 100% sure jo was scum and now you are 100% sure he is town. That was the 180.
The point is that you have completely flipped your reads on multiple players, so your attitude towards people who disagree with you is ridiculous. It is good that you are willing to re-evaluate your reads based on new insights, but it is beyond vain to belittle others' opinions and treat your own as the be-all-end-all when they are as mercurial and prone to error as anyone else's. Confidence is fine. Misplaced confidence is terrible because you will drive a townie lynch and defend scum to your death.
As for cayvie, like I said above, the one post doesn't have anything interesting in it. Let me know if I missed something, but a quick re-read turned up nothing else.
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I'd be down to lynch C_F, theorel, shraeye, watno, O.......Axxle, joth in that order. The break representing people who I would vote for right now and others that I would need a little bit of convincing before voting for them.
I believe shraeye is town. Scummy and overbearing town, but town nonetheless.
I believe jo is town as well.
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YN's target claims make more sense to me, and pretty well verify he's telling the truth.
What is the sense behind his targets? I don't know how one would go about selecting card cop targets especially if you weren't told what cards mean.
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investigate scum reads and hope circumstances permit you to identify a pattern or catch them in a lie, I guess. Both Glooble and Dsell were scummy to some degree when YN targeted them.
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investigate scum reads and hope circumstances permit you to identify a pattern or catch them in a lie, I guess. Both Glooble and Dsell were scummy to some degree when YN targeted them.
Cool. Cool cool cool.
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you know, just a thought
there are 25 cards in Intrigue
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@cayvie: regarding the 25 players/25 cards.
Additionally, we have:
2 cards mentioned in the title.
(at least) 1 player with an out-of-set card.
Others have supposed some of this already, but basically, the options are:
1. We have multiple people with the same card.
2. We have at least one more out-of-set player.
3. At least one of the cards in the title are also owned by players.
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Heading off the inevitable prod in this game since I just got one for my other one, and I can't remember the last time I posted anything in this thread... (I'd offer to replace out here too, but lol, there's nobody left to replace in and isn't there someone else who wants to replace out before me anyway? There's a @#$%ing queue! So I guess I have to stay in.)
Vote: Captain_Frisk since Morgrim can't
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THREAD LOCKED.
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Was that the hammer?
Congrats mafia.
Townies: I'm not scum, and I am a tracker. I didn't lie.
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I SAID THREAD LOCKED. NO MORE TALKING.
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Vote Count 3.11
Young Nick (4) -- Dsell, shraeye, Morgrim7, cayvie
Captain_Frisk (10) -- Cuzz, theorel, Insomniac, sparky5856, jotheonah, eHalcyon, ashersky, Young Nick, yuma, ftl
sparky5856 (1) -- watno
eHalcyon (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (3) -- O, Axxle, ehunt,
"Our lives here are so boring," complained Ftl. "There is nothing to do but easily find scum and kill them, day in and day out."
"Truly, a perfect record has made us miserable," added Theorel.
"Well, there's nothing to do but inch closer to the day when we may be free of this burden--this burden of flawless success," said Jotheonah.
And so you prepared to execute Captain_Frisk. No one was all that excited to do it; after all, if the universe was kind and just, surely you HAD to mislynch this time.
Alas, no such luck. The universe is cold, dead, and merciless.
"Zero mislynches!" Insomniac scoffed, breathless. "What is this, Forum Resistance?"
Captain_Frisk, the Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment) has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Send me your night actions by 5:00 PM (EDT) on Friday, October 26.
NIGHT 3 START
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ALERT: Somebody just sent me two messages to my gmail account, rather than my Forum messages. I am happy to communicate that way, however, I don't think this person is checking their gmail right now, so I actually can't ANSWER the person (because I don't know who sent the message!). So if that was you, you need to click 'message,' not 'e-mail,' so that I can talk to you and we both know who each other is.
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[flavor]After another night of nefariocity, you gathered in the courtyard to count the death toll. You were disappointed.
"At this rate, we will be here for years," Axxle whined.[/flavor]
eHalcyon, the Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
A Dominion card was also found: a Scout. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss)
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah
9. Young Nick
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire)
11. Axxle
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis)
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
ANNOUNCEMENT: Frisk asked this, so I might as well explain it to all of you. If you perform a night action that returns a result, you will be informed who you targeted (not who you intended to target, but who you actually targeted), and what your result is. If there was no result to return, or you were prevented from performing your action, you will be told "No Result." In practice, you cannot distinguish whether you were roleblocked from whether there was simply no result to report. If you are redirected, however, you would know it. It may be the case that none of these things matter based on what powers are in the game, or remain in the game, but I simply thought I would clarify regardless.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 4 START
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At this rate, we will be here for years...
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If I were to offer a piece of information, would people be happy to have it and not ask any questions about how I got it?
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I can't promise that of myself, but if most others agree to it, I'll do my best to go with the flow.
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If I were to offer a piece of information, would people be happy to have it and not ask any questions about how I got it?
depends on what it is... not a very helpful answer is it?
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Oh, what the hell. Relevant to card theories: I have very strong reason to believe (Let's call it 95% confidence) that Scout was Frisk's card, not eHalc's.
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By the way, let's discuss the loss of eHalc. He was definitely providing lots of analysis, analysis that I mostly agreed with.
He obviously butted heads with Shraeye a still bit, but not in an accusatory fashion.
He was mostly suspicious of me and Frisk.
Also worth noting is that we now do not know where the wine is.
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I'm going to go ahead and assume Joth received the wine last night? Seems like that would make sense in that case.
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Good guess, but no. I don't know where the wine is.
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Why don't we just ask?
Who has the wine?
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I think that was the consensus, right? to know where the wine is but not where it's going?
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yeah, where's the wine? scout fits frisk's role nicely, so i agree with jo's theory. young nick, whose card did you learn last night?
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I got a no result. I am unsure as to why.
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I think because young nick is still alive scum don't think his investigative powers are really that powerful, or they want to use it to their advantage. I suggest you refrain from claiming any more investigations, YN.
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(I asked for eHalc's)
I did this because I was worried that too much of the town was leaning on him. I just wanted to cover my bases. I usually am worried that because I focus on the lurkers so much that one of the most prominent players could be toying with all of us.
In any event, it does not matter now.
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Oops Axxle...
Not that it matters too much. :D
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vote: young nick
ok, now i'm on the shraeye train. card cop is probably weak mafia rolecop. this is definitely helped by the fact that scout seems like frisk's card (the joke being obvious; the non serial killer serial killer role is the dominion card that everyone makes fun of). searching glooble was weird. searching ehalc is borderline ridiculous. ehalc was obvtown, and semi-confirmed town thanks to the wine, and that's why scum killed ehalc.
btw what was frisk's role?? i don't even get it. My best guess is that his wincon was "survivor" but his description made it seem like he had scumbuddies in spite of his neutral alignment. also if his wincon is survivor it's not at all clear how a tracking role is going to help him.
fos: cayvie. ehalc pinned cayvie in what i thought was a pretty damning cross-ex yesterday, and now is dead. also cayvie is allegedly a town pr but doesn't die at night.
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vote: young nick
ok, now i'm on the shraeye train. card cop is probably weak mafia rolecop. this is definitely helped by the fact that scout seems like frisk's card (the joke being obvious; the non serial killer serial killer role is the dominion card that everyone makes fun of). searching glooble was weird. searching ehalc is borderline ridiculous. ehalc was obvtown, and semi-confirmed town thanks to the wine, and that's why scum killed ehalc.
btw what was frisk's role?? i don't even get it. My best guess is that his wincon was "survivor" but his description made it seem like he had scumbuddies in spite of his neutral alignment. also if his wincon is survivor it's not at all clear how a tracking role is going to help him.
fos: cayvie. ehalc pinned cayvie in what i thought was a pretty damning cross-ex yesterday, and now is dead. also cayvie is allegedly a town pr but doesn't die at night.
see above and all of my analysis on young nick on previous days... Plus I am 3 for 3 on lynching non-town aligned players in this game. I have high trust in my reads this game.
vote: young nick
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(I asked for eHalc's)
I did this because I was worried that too much of the town was leaning on him. I just wanted to cover my bases. I usually am worried that because I focus on the lurkers so much that one of the most prominent players could be toying with all of us.
In any event, it does not matter now.
Vote: young nick with everyone else. Why would a town quasi-cop check eHalc in this huge town of unknowns? Add that to his previous claims and it adds up to scum. EHalc dying made him the claim target so there could be no counter.
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(I asked for eHalc's)
I did this because I was worried that too much of the town was leaning on him. I just wanted to cover my bases. I usually am worried that because I focus on the lurkers so much that one of the most prominent players could be toying with all of us.
In any event, it does not matter now.
Vote: young nick with everyone else. Why would a town quasi-cop check eHalc in this huge town of unknowns? Add that to his previous claims and it adds up to scum. EHalc dying made him the claim target so there could be no counter.
Vote Youngnick for above reasons.
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I didn't see this in the mod messages, but 17 alive means 9 to lynch.
YN at L-5.
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I didn't see this in the mod messages, but 17 alive means 9 to lynch.
YN at L-5.
meh... he was at L-1 before...
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so YN was probably roleblocked?
Our theory has been one scum team.
So if Nick is scum, who roleblocked him?
OR why would he lie about his result if he wasn't?
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I have reason to believe I know YoungNick's description, and I believe he was telling the truth about his role. Alignment is not clear from this though. Would not be surprised if he was scum.
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so YN was probably roleblocked?
Our theory has been one scum team.
So if Nick is scum, who roleblocked him?
OR why would he lie about his result if he wasn't?
Could there be a JK? Town JK with a scum read on him could have kept YN...
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Scout. Interesting.
That's probably Frisk's card. We all know Scout sucks. And man, did Frisk's role suck. XD
I'm not loving the frisk lynch but I could go for it. He really has been a lurker content-wise and I'm starting to feel like his apathy is a survivalist tell.
You mean an actual survivor? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Survivor
I'd punch RobZ in the kidneys for making me a survivor in a 25 person game.
Also, I RECEIVED THE WINE LAST NIGHT. Although, I actually do not drink alcohol (sue me >_<). We both chose not to drink and we share descriptions. His talked something about "wanting better than this", so for his role to be VT makes sense. I will say that Robz did a good job making these descriptions.
There might be a mafia roleblocker out there, if YN claims he didn't get a result. Given a game with such a rich variety of roles, I wouldn't be surprised if there was one floating out there.
I'm super suspicious of ftl now for that hammer. Frisk wasn't mafia, so ftl knew he wasn't hammering mafia if he is such. VOTE: ftl More suspicious than YN at the moment.
I tried to look over cayvie's behavior last night and am totally stumped in that regard.
I probably have more to say but I can't think of it right now.
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I roleblocked Young Nick. He read scummy to me and I was too lazy as **** to know he was a claimed PR..
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I roleblocked Young Nick. He read scummy to me and I was too lazy as **** to know he was a claimed PR..
Vote: O
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I roleblocked Young Nick. He read scummy to me and I was too lazy as **** to know he was a claimed PR..
Vote: O
If it's a policy lynch, sure.
If you really think i'm scum, yea I would totally go out and say that when apparently lurking as scum is an optimal strategy.
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I roleblocked Young Nick. He read scummy to me and I was too lazy as **** to know he was a claimed PR..
Vote: O
If it's a policy lynch, sure.
If you really think i'm scum, yea I would totally go out and say that when apparently lurking as scum is an optimal strategy.
Eh, I got nothin else.
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I roleblocked Young Nick. He read scummy to me and I was too lazy as **** to know he was a claimed PR..
You a one-shot or do you have other night actions to tell us about?
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that portion of my role is one-shot.
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Yeah, let's see a fullclaim now, O.
Young Nick looks really scummy for investigating eHalc.
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you really want a full-claim?
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Yeah, let's see a fullclaim now, O.
Young Nick looks really scummy for investigating eHalc.
Wow, O semi-ninja'd me by actually less than a second.
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lol.
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Maybe that partial-claim is enough. I guess I'd like to hear more from you in general.
That definitely would be a stupid thing to claim as scum, but I could see you do it for the WIFOM.
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Hey Sparky, is your vote on ftl just about his hammer vote or is there more to it? Because YN looks pretty bad, but I've basically got nothing on ftl this game.
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Hey Sparky, is your vote on ftl just about his hammer vote or is there more to it? Because YN looks pretty bad, but I've basically got nothing on ftl this game.
I had a synopsis written up on ftl, but it was during day 2 I think? I remember something stuck out to me, I'll go dig it up and repost it.
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Hmmm....
actually it was a day 1 observation, so it may not hold much water after 3 days of full activity, but perhaps worth looking at again in the present context
ftl - my read on him was the same as the Day 1 in my post when I voted for Grujah. There it said this: "ftl (1) - ftl looks to me like a perfect example of scum trying at the beginning of the game to be active and fully participate, but as the game wore on, it became more and more difficult to keep up and not make a mistake, so instead of posting more and potentially making a mistake, he slowly sinks into the background."
But I do agree, YN is higher on my list. I only changed my vote yesterday because it appeared that the wagon on him was dying.
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Well, eHalc is dead.
YN claims to have investigated eHalc but also claims to have been roleblocked.
O comfirms that roleblock by announcing publicly out of left field that he is the cause.
........
Why would YN investigate eHalc if he is scum and the scum killed eHalc?
Something's not adding up for me.
The vote on ftl is a combination of lurking and the hammer, mostly the hammer though.
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Are roleblockers ever made aware by the mod that their roleblock was successful?
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Oh how did I not even think about the fact that he investigated the kill target. Duh. Ah, ok. So that does make me want to not lynch him. And it actually gives him a lot of cred. Although knowing he was roleblocked, I could see him claiming to have investigated eHal in order to distance himself from the kill (if he's mafia). Still.
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If Frisk's card was Scout, that means that Intrigue==Town is wrong.
This is why people are voting Young Nick now, yes? I think I agree with that logic.
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Still, it could be that scum ≠ Intrigue. It's hard to tell. My role is clearly not as powerful as it seems.
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Don't like O's claim
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Not sorry for the hammer. Day needed to end because this game is already enormous and endless, people posted good enough arguments on Frisk that I felt ok with his lynch.
YN lynch does not look all that good to me IMO, but I might just Morgrim it if it gets to L-1, so don't let it get there
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Not sorry for the hammer. Day needed to end because this game is already enormous and endless, people posted good enough arguments on Frisk that I felt ok with his lynch.
YN lynch does not look all that good to me IMO, but I might just Morgrim it if it gets to L-1, so don't let it get there
I like the YN lynch, so I'm totally fine with you Morgriming it.
vote: YoungNick
Vote: young nick with everyone else. Why would a town quasi-cop check eHalc in this huge town of unknowns? Add that to his previous claims and it adds up to scum. EHalc dying made him the claim target so there could be no counter.
What do you mean by "EHalc dying made him the claim target so there could be no counter"? That sentence makes no sense to me.
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Oh how did I not even think about the fact that he investigated the kill target. Duh. Ah, ok. So that does make me want to not lynch him. And it actually gives him a lot of cred. Although knowing he was roleblocked, I could see him claiming to have investigated eHal in order to distance himself from the kill (if he's mafia). Still.
I'm not connecting these dots. How does YN investigating EHalc give him town cred?
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Not sorry for the hammer. Day needed to end because this game is already enormous and endless, people posted good enough arguments on Frisk that I felt ok with his lynch.
YN lynch does not look all that good to me IMO, but I might just Morgrim it if it gets to L-1, so don't let it get there
I like the YN lynch, so I'm totally fine with you Morgriming it.
vote: YoungNick
Vote: young nick with everyone else. Why would a town quasi-cop check eHalc in this huge town of unknowns? Add that to his previous claims and it adds up to scum. EHalc dying made him the claim target so there could be no counter.
What do you mean by "EHalc dying made him the claim target so there could be no counter"? That sentence makes no sense to me.
I meant he could say whatever he wants about eHalc and eHalc can't counter it.
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I was not made aware that my roleblock was successful. Why?
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Oh how did I not even think about the fact that he investigated the kill target. Duh. Ah, ok. So that does make me want to not lynch him. And it actually gives him a lot of cred. Although knowing he was roleblocked, I could see him claiming to have investigated eHal in order to distance himself from the kill (if he's mafia). Still.
I'm not connecting these dots. How does YN investigating EHalc give him town cred?
Yeah I think investigating eHalc gives him the opposite. EHalc was obvtown. You want to see if you can get useful info on scummy characters.
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Oh how did I not even think about the fact that he investigated the kill target. Duh. Ah, ok. So that does make me want to not lynch him. And it actually gives him a lot of cred. Although knowing he was roleblocked, I could see him claiming to have investigated eHal in order to distance himself from the kill (if he's mafia). Still.
I'm not connecting these dots. How does YN investigating EHalc give him town cred?
Well it does and it doesn't. It doesn't because eHalc was obvtown and there was really no need to investigate him. But it does because if he was mafia (and thus knew who they would kill), it makes no sense to investigate the kill target. However, it is possible that he investigated someone else, saw he was roleblocked, and figured he'd claim to have investigated eHalc to give us this exact dilemma, distancing himself from his teammates. I tend to believe that he actually investigated eHalc, though, even if it makes no sense.
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I want a claim from O. That post of his struck me really scummy. Ya know what? Vote: O
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unvote per weirdness. Thinking to do...
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what a mess. i am going to break it down into cases based on who is lying. not sure what to do. for now, contra morgrim, i do not support any more claimage out of O.
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Disorganized thoughts, sorry:
1. Investigating eHalc makes no sense from a town perspective. We already had town-ish investigative results on eHalc. YN says he wants to make sure we don't have erroneously confirmed townies; I don't buy it, that's a late-game concern, not an early game concern.
2. YN knew that he was roleblocked. If he's scum scum, this would have given him the perfect opportunity to lie about whom he investigated. So if he's scum it's funny that he said eHalc, given what a poor investigation target eHalc would be per 1.
3. There is the remote possibility that YN is lying about having card-reading ability, in which case DSell is a scumbuddy. This is probably not worth considering until later in the game, because if that were true, it seems like DSell would almost certainly have been like, "no way, my card doesn't start with a p" and bussed hard, rather than what he did.
4. as many have said, we now are pretty sure that the intrigue == town argument is bunk. we also have a few mild correlations between card-type and abilities. As Shraeye argued yesterday, this in turn makes yn's role much more likely to be scummy (rolecop vs cop).
5. It's hard to believe O didn't notice that YN had a claimed PR when he roleblocked him, although O has played town somewhat sloppy the last few games, and it's also hard to see why O would freely volunteer this information if O were mafia. I think scum O would not have participated in a scheme like this but more likely would have bussed YN.
6. On the other hand, O, why roleblock YN? Presumably you thought he was mafia and reasonably likely to perform the factional kill, the first of these assumptions being reasonable and the second not as much, although I guess if you hadn't been reading the many pages of discussion about his ability, it seems more likely. Ugh, town mistakes are frustrating, and normally I am for punishing town mistakes (on the theory that if we don't, scum are just going to "make mistakes" left and right) - but here, O has gone out of his way to deal with the consequences of the mistake; again scum O could just have kept his mouth shut.
7. DSell's argument, as I understand it, goes like this: if YN is scum, then YN knew ehalc was toast, so why did YN investigate eHalc? Right - this is important. One possibility is that YN could have investigated someone else, planning to lie and say he investigated eHalc (he knows this is a safe lie if ehalc dies); then when he was roleblocked, but he had already planned out his lie, he couldn't think of something better to say on the spot. Remember that YN can't lie about cards. If this were an ordinary game and he were fakeclaiming cop, he could just pick a townie and be like, oh, I investigated so-and-so, and he was town. But he can't do that here, the alleged investigative target is just going to be like, ok, so what's my card? But still - eHalc was a weird choice here to investigate if YN is town and a weird choice to lie about having investigated if YN is scum. Does not make sense either way.
8. The "bad luck" principle: YN happened to investigate the person who died. So either town got unlucky (which does happen, e.g. I wrote the letter to jo in MVI thinking he would live) or YN is lying.
Of the four logical combinations with O and YN, I lean toward town O and scum YN. Scum O and town YN is very unlikely (because O could have just kept his mouth shut about the roleblockage, YN would be doomed, and no one would be the wiser on who the roleblocker had been). Scum O and scum YN is possible but seems unnecessarily daring on O's part. Town O and town YN is possible, in my opinion the second most likely of these four possibilities.
vote: Young Nick
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reread of O is mega-frustrating. there's just so little content. the claim that he missed YN's business is completely believable, though - he really didn't post any time around when it was happening.
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Wait is that hammer?
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Wait is that hammer?
nowhere near, i don't think
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i unvoted then revoted without any votes for you in between, so if that's the "hammer," you were already dead.
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No it's not, but it would suck to get hammered less than 24 hours into d3 especially since I am town.
I just don't know what to make of descriptions. I worry that they could be mis-informative (like Grujah's). And, as I said, I don't buy anyone being "obtown." That's just good Mafia play (see PPS in MVII).
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No it's not, but it would suck to get hammered less than 24 hours into d3 especially since I am town.
I just don't know what to make of descriptions. I worry that they could be mis-informative (like Grujah's). And, as I said, I don't buy anyone being "obtown." That's just good Mafia play (see PPS in MVII).
Grujah's wasn't misinformative. It just wasn't informative - there's a difference. Both the other confirmed descriptions have been informative. DSell said something like "ehalc is almost surely town" based on ehalc's description.
And look, all of this also ignores the fact that you were/are in a lot of heat. If I had your role and it were genuinely a town-aligned role, and I had been put at L - 1, I would be sure to investigate someone who was very unlikely to wind up dead, because I would want that person to back my story up the next day. Even if you thought there was a chance ehalc was scum-aligned and doing a good job looking town (and bastard mod had given scum-ehalc a town-sounding description or ehalc and dsell were very daring scumbuddies), you still should have thought that in the other scenario (the one which actually is the case!) ehalc would be a very likely mafia target. It just doesn't add up.
And this isn't MVII - in MVII town shot themselves in the foot and you and pps played a perfect game. Here it's the opposite.
It's just too convenient that you happened to investigate someone that's dead. Only O's roleblock claim throws a monkey wrench into this, but I think ultimately it's a red herring.
Can we get a vote count? don't hammer till Sparky passes the wine.
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I was wondering if it is at all possible that in a game this large, instead of having the normal x-man (6-7?) scum team, it is closer to only 4 or 5, with no vanilla Mafia Goons. In this case, there could be multiple Mafia JoaT's and O could have used his role-block on me.
Just a crazy theory, but a possible one.
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Vote Count 4.1
Young Nick (4) -- yuma, ashersky, shraeye, ehunt
ftl (1) -- sparky5856
O (2) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7
Not voting (10) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Jotheonah, Young Nick, O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel, Watno
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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I was wondering if it is at all possible that in a game this large, instead of having the normal x-man (6-7?) scum team, it is closer to only 4 or 5, with no vanilla Mafia Goons. In this case, there could be multiple Mafia JoaT's and O could have used his role-block on me.
Just a crazy theory, but a possible one.
Why did O tell the world he used his roleblock on you?
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It scares me that we're already talking about hammering. I HAVE THE WINE REMEMBER? So, if we hammer, I die! I don't wanna fade to black for this reason. Should I share it already, so early into D4?
pretty much, yes. i am in the unenviable position of having town reads on the two biggest suspects
And is that based solely on role claims?
man, you really want to know what my role is, huh
Not exactly. It's just odd because earlier today you said that Nick was your only scum read.
This is pretty high on my mind right now. Funny that eHalc is dead now.
So, cayvie can't be voting on any lynch, even if it's scum? (Earlier though she stated that she simply can't be voting on TOWNIE lynches.) She just has to use her vote on her "biggest town read"? Someone said that that would cause misinterpretations down the line, and they were right.
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Let's not forget about cayvie here. eHalc was asking a lot of questions about cayvie's role and tumbling to some claiming inconsistencies. And then eHalc died. cayvie's claims still don't add up - first she said something bad would happen if she was on a town lynch. THEN she said she has a night power that targets whoever she was voting for, so really she just needs to not be on the lynch.
the main thing, I think is that eHalc was suspicious of cayvie and then died.
(sorta ninja'd)
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No it's not, but it would suck to get hammered less than 24 hours into d3 especially since I am town.
I just don't know what to make of descriptions. I worry that they could be mis-informative (like Grujah's). And, as I said, I don't buy anyone being "obtown." That's just good Mafia play (see PPS in MVII).
I have a hunch as to what the "random-number generator" refers to. If you get a juicy role, then you win the random-number generator contest. It's how Robz selected roles. But Grujah's description also refers to him as losing it probably because he was an important mafia role, and it would be frustrating to maintain.
Even if you thought there was a chance ehalc was scum-aligned and doing a good job looking town (and bastard mod had given scum-ehalc a town-sounding description or ehalc and dsell were very daring scumbuddies), you still should have thought that in the other scenario (the one which actually is the case!) ehalc would be a very likely mafia target. It just doesn't add up.
What are your thoughts on this YN?
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I considered this, but thought that it was more likely that I, sparky, or yuma would be the NK.
Me for my role, yuma and sparky for their hunting. I did think of it as a distinct possibility, but figured that it would be worth while for me to roll the dice.
Other people could have been the targets, too. Anyone who has confessed to having any type of power (like cayvie or Cuzz) would have been reasonable targets.
So with 6 people who, in my opinion, could have easily been the NK, I targeted one of the five I could (I wouldn't investigate myself, obviously).
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I considered this, but thought that it was more likely that I, sparky, or yuma would be the NK.
Me for my role, yuma and sparky for their hunting. I did think of it as a distinct possibility, but figured that it would be worth while for me to roll the dice.
Other people could have been the targets, too. Anyone who has confessed to having any type of power (like cayvie or Cuzz) would have been reasonable targets.
So with 6 people who, in my opinion, could have easily been the NK, I targeted one of the five I could (I wouldn't investigate myself, obviously).
Why would you limit the investigations to one of the 5 people you thought might be NKed (sparky, yuma, cayvie, cuzz, ehalc). Why not investigate somebody entirely different and likely to be safe? Axxle, Morgrim, myself...?
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I have a hunch as to what the "random-number generator" refers to. If you get a juicy role, then you win the random-number generator contest. It's how Robz selected roles. But Grujah's description also refers to him as losing it probably because he was an important mafia role, and it would be frustrating to maintain.
Sparky, what do you mean by this? "winning the random number generator (RNG) means you have a juicy role" is one point I think you are making here. Why would you suspect this, when the only descriptions we've heard that involve RNG are Grujah's?
Another point you make is that Grujah's descrip also says he "lost?" the RNG contest, because "being an important mafia role is frustrating to maintain." What do you mean by "maintaining"? Why would it ever be frustrating to be a mafia power role??
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That was my first thought with the Random Number Generator talk. He said that he would randomize some roles and alignments, and so I thought it made perfect sense that a scum power role who was randomly selected "won" the RNG. So I think that's a reasonable hunch. I mean, what else would the RNG be referring to?
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Sparky's idea was my first thought with the Random Number Generator talk. Robz said that he would randomize some roles and alignments, and so I thought it made perfect sense that a scum power role who was randomly selected "won" the RNG. So I think sparky's idea is a reasonable hunch. I mean, what else would the RNG be referring to?
My last post was super vague with who I was referring to, fixed above.
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Oh and as for the "lost" part of the RNG talk, I figured that was because some people don't like playing as scum and might view their chances of winning as lower.
It also clues people who read his description into the fact that he's scum. I actually thought his description was pretty clear. If I saw that description out of context I would definitely have thought scum.
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I have a hunch as to what the "random-number generator" refers to. If you get a juicy role, then you win the random-number generator contest. It's how Robz selected roles. But Grujah's description also refers to him as losing it probably because he was an important mafia role, and it would be frustrating to maintain.
Sparky, what do you mean by this? "winning the random number generator (RNG) means you have a juicy role" is one point I think you are making here. Why would you suspect this, when the only descriptions we've heard that involve RNG are Grujah's?
Another point you make is that Grujah's descrip also says he "lost?" the RNG contest, because "being an important mafia role is frustrating to maintain." What do you mean by "maintaining"? Why would it ever be frustrating to be a mafia power role??
I'll spill the beans here. eHalc's description referenced the random number generator and him losing it. He was a VT, so he didn't have many powers, which is not very juicy.
As for your second point, Dsell brings up a good point that some people don't like to play as scum, and then it would be quite frustrating to make sure you don't get suspected/killed.
I considered this, but thought that it was more likely that I, sparky, or yuma would be the NK.
Me for my role, yuma and sparky for their hunting. I did think of it as a distinct possibility, but figured that it would be worth while for me to roll the dice.
Other people could have been the targets, too. Anyone who has confessed to having any type of power (like cayvie or Cuzz) would have been reasonable targets.
So with 6 people who, in my opinion, could have easily been the NK, I targeted one of the five I could (I wouldn't investigate myself, obviously).
Why would I be the NK? I garnered quite a lot of suspicion D3. Granted I was hunting but quite unsuccessfully.
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Why would I be the NK? I garnered quite a lot of suspicion D3. Granted I was hunting but quite unsuccessfully.
Yes, but hunting is hunting.
And Shraeye, regarding your reasonable question about why would I limit myself to one of those 6? Because I was very much genuinely curious about eHalc and thought it would be of benefit. Even if he turned up town, he would be IC to me.
I do see why it would make sense to look at the lurkers or more scummy players, but that is just not where I was expecting to find Mafia at this point.
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Why would I be the NK? I garnered quite a lot of suspicion D3. Granted I was hunting but quite unsuccessfully.
I do see why it would make sense to look at the lurkers or more scummy players, but that is just not where I was expecting to find Mafia at this point.
Says the guy who was pushing the lynch all lurkers earlier because you thought they were scum?
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wait
YN doesn't expect to find mafia among the scummy players?
That's almost as bad as jo saying in MXII that he doesn't understand how lynching scum is pro-town ;D
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I say lynch lurkers because they hurt town. Because they provide no info. But let me clarify. It's not that I don't expect scum there. I don't expect there to be a higher ratio of scum who are lurking. I just think lurking is antitown.
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I'm warming to a YN lynch.
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Yeah, I know, I'm all over the place.
Wish I could be more internally consistent. What can I say, I would make a bad politician.
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Now it kind of sounds like you're admitting you're a bad liar.
Vote: Young Nick
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I haven't lied in a single thing I have said all game. I just admitted that I change my mind.
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Drunk AMA a lá ehunt? I'll be here for another hour or so.
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or not?
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That's, OK, too.
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everyone's sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeping
or maybe it's just the weekend who knows
anyways, whats up? how do you feel about the current state of our nation's economy?
and on another note, what is your plan of action for convincing us that you're town?
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everyone's sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeping
or maybe it's just the weekend who knows
anyways, whats up? how do you feel about the current state of our nation's economy?
and on another note, what is your plan of action for convincing us that you're town?
No discussion about economy. I believe the fourth line is a question to Young Nick. That is a very strangely worded question.
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unvote for a bit. Not rational I just kinda think he's town from the three lonely posts.
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Let's not forget about cayvie here. eHalc was asking a lot of questions about cayvie's role and tumbling to some claiming inconsistencies. And then eHalc died. cayvie's claims still don't add up - first she said something bad would happen if she was on a town lynch. THEN she said she has a night power that targets whoever she was voting for, so really she just needs to not be on the lynch.
the main thing, I think is that eHalc was suspicious of cayvie and then died.
(sorta ninja'd)
I strongly agree. I also have found cayvie's varying levels of intensity to her claim suspicious. First it was "I'll be voting off wagons because it's super bad if I lynch town." Then it became "I don't want to be on any wagon". Then it was "hammering Munch would be a horrendous idea." Then it was simply "my power works on who I'm voting for at the end of the day." I'm suspicious.
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everyone's sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeping
or maybe it's just the weekend who knows
anyways, whats up? how do you feel about the current state of our nation's economy?
and on another note, what is your plan of action for convincing us that you're town?
No discussion about economy. I believe the fourth line is a question to Young Nick. That is a very strangely worded question.
I'm not sure how to convince you guys that I'm town. It sounds really obnoxious and antitown, but know that if I were mafia I would care more than I currently do. I'd have a few reads and hedge a lot more than I currently am. My night-action moves would be more calculated, generated to not draw attention to my scum-power. So knowing this, I would have done O, theorel, Morgrim, or maybe Cayvie if I were scum. But I'm not.
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everyone's sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeping
or maybe it's just the weekend who knows
anyways, whats up? how do you feel about the current state of our nation's economy?
and on another note, what is your plan of action for convincing us that you're town?
No discussion about economy. I believe the fourth line is a question to Young Nick. That is a very strangely worded question.
I'm not sure how to convince you guys that I'm town. It sounds really obnoxious and antitown, but know that if I were mafia I would care more than I currently do. I'd have a few reads and hedge a lot more than I currently am. My night-action moves would be more calculated, generated to not draw attention to my scum-power. So knowing this, I would have done O, theorel, Morgrim, or maybe Cayvie if I were scum. But I'm not.
the sort of fundamental problem I'm having is this. Investigating a mostly-confirmed-town when you had a sea full of lurkers to choose from and when you are in grave danger of being lynched yourself is indefensible. It's so indefensible that it's inconceivable that town would do it. It's also so indefensible that it's obvious that it's indefensible, so it's a terrible choice to lie about if you're scum, plus if you're scum you knew ehalc would die.
So like, it's clear that, lying or not, you think the ehalc investigation was defensible, even though as far as I know this is a mystery to basically everyone else alive at this point. Is there anybody besides YN who will stand up for this decision? I would love to hear an unbiased argument.
(separately O roleblocked you and freely admitted to it, i am bracketing that aside for now because i don't even know how to deal with it, see my earlier post for long rant.)
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I considered this, but thought that it was more likely that I, sparky, or yuma would be the NK.
Me for my role, yuma and sparky for their hunting. I did think of it as a distinct possibility, but figured that it would be worth while for me to roll the dice.
Other people could have been the targets, too. Anyone who has confessed to having any type of power (like cayvie or Cuzz) would have been reasonable targets.
So with 6 people who, in my opinion, could have easily been the NK, I targeted one of the five I could (I wouldn't investigate myself, obviously).
I agree with you ehunt, this is the quote I don't understand... He is basically saying that there are six people likely to be night killed... I picked one of them to investigate? If you really are town, why not pick someone who is unlikely to be killed and actually get a better chance for a result. It doesn't make sense. It looks like he is floundering trying to find a reason for why he targeted ehalc.
Frisk tracking me twice makes more sense than this and that didn't make any sense at all.
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everyone's sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeping
or maybe it's just the weekend who knows
anyways, whats up? how do you feel about the current state of our nation's economy?
and on another note, what is your plan of action for convincing us that you're town?
No discussion about economy. I believe the fourth line is a question to Young Nick. That is a very strangely worded question.
I'm not sure how to convince you guys that I'm town. It sounds really obnoxious and antitown, but know that if I were mafia I would care more than I currently do. I'd have a few reads and hedge a lot more than I currently am. My night-action moves would be more calculated, generated to not draw attention to my scum-power. So knowing this, I would have done O, theorel, Morgrim, or maybe Cayvie if I were scum. But I'm not.
the sort of fundamental problem I'm having is this. Investigating a mostly-confirmed-town when you had a sea full of lurkers to choose from and when you are in grave danger of being lynched yourself is indefensible. It's so indefensible that it's inconceivable that town would do it. It's also so indefensible that it's obvious that it's indefensible, so it's a terrible choice to lie about if you're scum, plus if you're scum you knew ehalc would die.
So like, it's clear that, lying or not, you think the ehalc investigation was defensible, even though as far as I know this is a mystery to basically everyone else alive at this point. Is there anybody besides YN who will stand up for this decision? I would love to hear an unbiased argument.
(separately O roleblocked you and freely admitted to it, i am bracketing that aside for now because i don't even know how to deal with it, see my earlier post for long rant.)
I am confused about this as well. But what also makes no sense to me is that it does seem like YoungNick is looking to rationalize his targeting of eHalc, which would imply that he's telling the truth about trying to target eHalc. But then why would he target someone his own scum team was planning to kill?
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conspiracy theory time....
did we ever fully decide whether or not eevee's cult faction was a thing or not?
Is it possible that the reason that Frisk didn't have an alignment when he died is because he had become part of the cult?
Is it possible that young nick has something to do with this potential cult?
Am I being too paranoid? Are there too many question marks in this post? Yes, yuma... Too many question marks.
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conspiracy theory time....
did we ever fully decide whether or not eevee's cult faction was a thing or not?
Is it possible that the reason that Frisk didn't have an alignment when he died is because he had become part of the cult?
Is it possible that young nick has something to do with this potential cult?
Am I being too paranoid? Are there too many question marks in this post? Yes, yuma... Too many question marks.
I think there's a neighborhood, and I think I know who one of the neighbors is (I'm not asking for a claim!)
But on the other hand, it does explain Frisk's "no alignment" better than anything else. Also, eevee was semi-naive alignment cop. What do we think that means? Maybe it has something to do with the "no alignment" faction?
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Young Nick:
1. Do you still believe the intrigue == town theory?
2. What do you think the point of the card names is?
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I would not be surprised if scum had non-intrigue cards or attacks. I bet that town has Intrigue non-attacks.
I also am curious about the cost of cards. It seems like it might matter, but I don't want to hastily make false connections.
If card names don't do alignment, well, then I figure I am a VT who thinks he's more powerful than he actually is. I can't see them mattering for anything else.
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I would not be surprised if scum had non-intrigue cards or attacks. I bet that town has Intrigue non-attacks.
I also am curious about the cost of cards. It seems like it might matter, but I don't want to hastily make false connections.
If card names don't do alignment, well, then I figure I am a VT who thinks he's more powerful than he actually is. I can't see them mattering for anything else.
Who do you think had the card "Scout?"
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Well, someone (joth) said that they would say with 95% certainty that it was C_F's. Otherwise, I would have assumed that eHalc, a VT, would have a boring, $4, Intrigue card like Scout.
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Vote Count 4.2
Young Nick (4) -- yuma, ashersky, shraeye, jotheonah
ftl (1) -- sparky5856
O (2) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7
Not voting (10) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick, O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel, Watno, ehunt
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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A cult IS an alignment, though. No alignment suggest a singular role to me, with no associates. (Maybe because Scout is a card nobody likes?)
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A cult IS an alignment, though. No alignment suggest a singular role to me, with no associates. (Maybe because Scout is a card nobody likes?)
Is there a role that can relate to everyone? After all, Scout combos with everything.
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@Robz:
Shraeye is on that vote-count twice. ehunt should replace in the not voting category. Also the title says day3.
yay for games starting up Friday evening.
I've got not much of anything. I agree with the essential premise that Young Nick's target makes no sense as either scum or town.
Cayvie's role description definitely seems off. @cayvie: could you clarify the apparent contradictions? Were you lying to protect yourself or are we just misunderstanding your role?
I'm wondering about O though. He felt Young Nick was scummy but missed the whole role discussion? That seems off to me. Although, as ehunt points out, why would he then announce it? I dunno, I'm not so convinced that he wouldn't play brazenly anti-town as scum. But then, last time I thought that he turned out town. Bah. I would appreciate an explanation of young Nick's scumminess outside of the role-claim though. Because I think a lot of the Young Nick is scummy debate centers around his role claim (with a sprinkling of the sacrificial offering from day1, which I've already stated my disagreement with).
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Thanks, theorel. Fixed.
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I'm wondering about O though. He felt Young Nick was scummy but missed the whole role discussion? That seems off to me. Although, as ehunt points out, why would he then announce it? I dunno, I'm not so convinced that he wouldn't play brazenly anti-town as scum. But then, last time I thought that he turned out town. Bah. I would appreciate an explanation of young Nick's scumminess outside of the role-claim though. Because I think a lot of the Young Nick is scummy debate centers around his role claim (with a sprinkling of the sacrificial offering from day1, which I've already stated my disagreement with).
This. O, explain yourself.
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shraeye's read on him in D2:
Reread on YoungNick. He shows up late, and posts many many posts about not being able to catch up yet. His 7th post is the first to even have a glimmer of content.
Quote from: Young Nick on September 21, 2012, 10:46:29 pm
Daily check-in here. Still haven't started.
I am seriously considering just going from page 30 or so to save myself the RVS BS. Can someone point me towards the post from eevee about the Cultist thang?
Ok, so he's curious about cultists, that's an improvement from the nothing posts we'd been getting.
3 days in, hasn't reread at all. He finally give his first read: he wants to lynch eevee (known town) for simply knowing about a recruiting faction.
Quote from: Young Nick on September 23, 2012, 08:41:17 pm
I am curious about yuma's suggestion to lynch Axxle. It makes sense until you realize how different the dynamic is when there are (almost certainly) multiple scum teams. This would probably make it slightly less valuable. Still, I am not opposed to it. I haven't reread at all, but it seems like there is very little that we know and very few non-RVS reads. That or lynch Eevee for knowing about a Cult.
Still, in the very next post he votes Axxle. Joth responds the best to this, immediately posting "Young Nick, those are pretty terrible suggestions. And a LOT has happened already."
Quote from: Young Nick on September 23, 2012, 11:23:42 pm
Well, I am certainly not "blaming" other people for giving me their summaries. I just assumed that the information was relatively accurate, and that if it weren't, that someone would make a correction. Please don't think I am ungrateful for the summaries. It just sounds like there has been little of substance so far!
And a non-RVS read is one that is based off of legitimate discussion, which seems to have started after page 25ish or so. I guess I just don't value RVS, it's only purpose is to launch us into productive discussion which it has. And that's where worthwhile reads come from.
wait, didn't he just say that there wasn't any non-RVS info yet? Maybe YoungNick's finally rereading. Except, I guess not because in one of his future posts (what I consider the first real-substance post) he starts by saying he doesn't have time to read the 40 pages of D1:
Quote from: Young Nick on September 25, 2012, 11:20:29 am
Hi just checking in. I'm going to address a few thoughts up to that point real quick.
First and foremost, I am definitely not going to have time to read the first 40 pages of this game. I will use the shraeye index, but that is obviously not as good as reading.
Second off, I see that some people have called me out for lurking. Some think I am complaining about a lack of a summary (though I have one now, so hurray) and about how little time I have. I don't have much time. That's the reality of it. I signed up for a newbie-friendly game. I don't think a game that posts 7 pages in one day is newbie-friendly. See it as scummy if you will, but that's life.
It's not like I'm a soon-to-be father, but I am starting college. While in high school and during summer, my schedule is completely different. I have to go make new friends now. That takes time and effort. Time and effort that has to come from somewhere, aka Mafia.
I'm still staying in, though. I am doing my check-ins, trying to get caught up and getting into a routine where I can spend time on Mafia everyday. That schedule isn't set yet, but will hopefully be soon.
Lastly, I do have a few reads. Mainly, I do think eHalc's "directing the cop" was a bit weird, even if he prefaced it. I understand that he supports investigating Morgrim in all games, but man, I would rather have my PR's keep their options more open. I do think he has said some fishy stuff, all of which he has been called out on. I do find that most reads I get are expressed by someone else hours before I even am at a computer. Like this whole vote-for-information type thing. It clearly is hedging. Hopefully today I can get caught up, and thus post up-to-date reads.
So YoungNick's finally getting reads, and all he has for us is "eHalc directing cop to investigate Morgrim is weird", "info-lynch looks like hedging", and "other people beat me to posting my reads, so I won't verify anything else at this point".
READ THIS
Now comes some suspicious stuff. The Grujah wagon has hit 6 players and YoungNick posts this.
Quote from: Young Nick on September 25, 2012, 07:43:00 pm
yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.
Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.
"Gosh, please don't lynch Grujah, you could even lynch me, I'd be ok with that. Just not Grujah." Also, YoungNick promises significant analysis.
READ THIS
Next post is in day2, no analysis came, his really stupid vote stayed safely on Axxle instead of switching to Grujah. He say's votes on Joth were silly. I agree, despite being one of those voters. Then he asks us to back off of ashersky for bringing up No-lynch.
Quote from: Young Nick on October 01, 2012, 05:19:46 pm
I understand where you guys are coming from, and it does look like he has been hedging, but when I read his NL push, I viewed it more as asking an open-ended question than pushing for NL.
We all flirt with the idea in our Mafia-infancy, so I don't see why he should be judged more harshly for this than anyone else is. I mean, in a 20+ game, most conventional wisdom has to be at least modified, and the always-lynch-d1 logic is no exception.
If anything, I think Watno's second-on-the-wagon is more suspicious than anything else. Not that ashersky did much to defend himself at the top of p. 62..
READ THIS
Post explaining/defending position on not voting Grujah
Quote from: Young Nick on October 02, 2012, 01:20:28 pm
Quote from: eHalcyon on September 26, 2012, 01:01:02 am
Why go for one of the others over Grujah? Serious question.
Sorry I missed this. What I was saying is that this seemed like too easy of an excuse to jump on the wagon. I was not aware of the posting patterns of Grujah (post after someone votes him) at the time. To me, it looked like you were just hedging and voting him because he was a lurker. Why any of the others? Because Grujah had provided some content over the course of the day. ibgtennis had not. I had provided minimal.
I can understand Grujah over Glooble (they were contributing equal amounts in my mind; it makes sense that you can see their butting heads as one being scum and the other not), but I still think it would have made more sense to lynch me or ibgtennis or O.
tl;dr: If you are going to lynch a lurker, then lynch one of the true lurkers. ibgtennis is the only one I see who is still posting way, way too infrequently.
Hey, YoungNick, remember when you posted this "I, despite my play-style, am for a Lynch-All-Lurkers meta. I am not saying that is where one always will find scum (though sometimes we do), but rather just a way to make the scum-lurk no longer feasible. " In the above quote you said that "jumping on Grujah for lurking is too easy of an excuse for jumping on the wagon". Imma give you a hint, when trying to Lynch-all-Lurkers, somebody will have to jump on the wagon, easy or not. So why should people have not jumped on the Grujah wagon over lurking? Because there were also other lurkers? That's a terrible reason. A better reason would be because he's your team's PR, but you can't go saying that outloud obviously.
two posts which are confusing when we realize they were posted 7 hours apart:
Quote from: Young Nick on October 04, 2012, 02:34:51 pm
I disagree with those who say Munch doesn't look bad. Dude has been hedging like crazy, which is a newb-tell and a scum-tell. I understand we have other things to look at, but hedging deserves proper investigation.
Quote from: Young Nick on October 04, 2012, 09:50:01 pm
Personally, I am with most of the others here. The re-read terrifies me and it's not like I am drowning in free time anyway. I express my opinions but still struggle to get consistent reads in a game this big. I have said where I stand and until that changes or I have better reason, I feel I have little to contribute.
My feelings towards Munch are barely enough to warrant a vote. I still would like to hear more from ashersky. It's that simple.
Funny, last time I disagreed with people who said somebody looked not bad, then said that that bad-looker has been hedging like crazy, I thought that was plenty enough to warrent a vote. So Munch, scummy or not scummy, vote or not?
On reread, I do not like. I do not like at all. And this is what I do when I think someone looks this bad.
vote: YoungNick
Couldn't find a Galz reread on him.
Also, I passed the wine early in the wake of Hurricane Sandy; Robz gave me the option to change my mind if necessary.
Honestly YN isn't making a whole lot of sense right now. Although I'm sure you all already knew that >_<
About the Intrigue cards, maybe it's that all night-killers have non-Intrigue cards. Or maybe not. It's all speculation at the moment.
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eh, i feel bad cause i got some unfair draws (unfair in my favor) against YN in dominion yesterday and his lonely drunkposts made me feel like he was town and made me feel guilty but there was just no reason to investigate ehalcyon, i agree that his actions dont make sense if he's scum either, but i think when this happens (you can't figure out what he's doing no matter what his alignment is) you gotta default that part of the confusion is that he is keeping something from you, vote: Young Nick
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ehunt: lol at our Dominion. Only one game was affected by draws.
Regarding Mafia, I knew my decision would controversial, but I figured it would be useful.
Now those who are voting for me because what I have done makes no sense: This would be different if I were mafia. If I were, I would have claimed to investigate eHalc and investigated someone else. Once it was confirmed that O role-blocked me, it would be impossible for it to be disproved.
So please, guys, don't say that my actions don't make sense as Mafia or as town, because if I were Mafia, then those actions would have been different.
I'm sure that this makes me look no better in all of your eyes, but it is a mistake the town should not make going forward. If you suspect that I am Mafia, you should suspect that I have been lying for parts of this game.
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YN can I ask what card eHal was I don't recall if you said that information or not.
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...role-blocked by O
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I think that the case against young nick is fairly weak. Why announce targeting eHal when he died when there is safer claims, if he's was roleblocked he could claim to have targeted anyone else safely.
The narrative where young nick IS scum means he is essentially their rolecop, so why rolecop someone who your team is killing.
None of these narratives make sense, I could see town young_nick wanting to check eHal out to be sure that town was being lead by town though. So the only narrative that makes sense for me RE: Young Nick is one where he is town.
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And Shraeye, regarding your reasonable question about why would I limit myself to one of those 6? Because I was very much genuinely curious about eHalc and thought it would be of benefit. Even if he turned up town, he would be IC to me.
This answer literally goes around the entire point of my question. You explained why you picked eHalc out of the 6 people who were likely to be NKed, according to you (sparky, yuma, cayvie, cuzz, ehalc, and yourself). My question is why limit yourself to only looking at this subset of 6 who are in the spotlight already. why not readthe card of theorel, O, Morgrim, ftl, axxle, watno, frisk? There is a whole host of players I would love to know more about, and for some reason the choice you restrcited yourself to was "who of the people who might be NKed do I want to investigate?" That's a weird weird subset to focus on for investigations.
shraeye's read on him in D2:
{snip}
Also, I passed the wine early in the wake of Hurricane Sandy; Robz gave me the option to change my mind if necessary.
Honestly YN isn't making a whole lot of sense right now. Although I'm sure you all already knew that >_<
About the Intrigue cards, maybe it's that all night-killers have non-Intrigue cards. Or maybe not. It's all speculation at the moment.
sparky's post of my read on YoungNick has some crazy formatting issues where the quotes aren't working correctly somehow. Here's
the post he was trying to copy.
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Or the one where I like and say I investigated eHalc? There is some WIFOM, I guess.
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@Shraeye: you misunderstand me. I was most genuinely curious about eHalc. Out of all the people in the game, I wanted to investigate him the most. I acknowledge he was in my "group of 6," but I still wanted to see.
Basically, I did not limit myself to those si., I was merely saying that to me, it wasn't a given that he was going to die when there were 5 others just as likely to take the NK. Hopefully this clarifies.
I know I remain scummy and all, but we should look at some other people. Mafia must be having a field day with everybody closely examining me while they go about free of suspicion. It would be nice to get a check in from everybody. Many have not had a chance, which is understandable (considering the weekend and impending doom hurricane).
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I think that the case against young nick is fairly weak. Why announce targeting eHal when he died when there is safer claims, if he's was roleblocked he could claim to have targeted anyone else safely.
The narrative where young nick IS scum means he is essentially their rolecop, so why rolecop someone who your team is killing.
None of these narratives make sense, I could see town young_nick wanting to check eHal out to be sure that town was being lead by town though. So the only narrative that makes sense for me RE: Young Nick is one where he is town.
You don't get cards on flip. So going for eHalc's card might make snse even if theyre killing him.
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Has YN claimed to know the card of anyone living yet?
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Has YN claimed to know the card of anyone living yet?
Me, and he's right about it.
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I've had three nights. I learned of 2 cards this way, one of which can be confirmed.
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Let's not forget about cayvie here. eHalc was asking a lot of questions about cayvie's role and tumbling to some claiming inconsistencies. And then eHalc died. cayvie's claims still don't add up - first she said something bad would happen if she was on a town lynch. THEN she said she has a night power that targets whoever she was voting for, so really she just needs to not be on the lynch.
the main thing, I think is that eHalc was suspicious of cayvie and then died.
(sorta ninja'd)
yep, i was directly questioned about these inconsistencies, and clarified that i was deliberately misleading with my original claim.
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relevant post
Hey, I was going to try to disguise this but then I decided not to.
It's particularly bad for me (not specifying further) to be voting on a townie lynch, so, until I'm absolutely sure, I'm probably going to duck out of a lot of wagons before lynch.
cayvie, was this just a lie to explain why you would be avoiding the lynch?
well.. it's not a lie per se, but it is deliberately misleading
it is bad for me to be voting on a townie lynch, as i don't get to use my power at night.
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So, why say "it's bad for me to be on a townie lynch" rather than just "it's bad for me to be on the lynch"? Because it's just as bad for you to be on a scum lynch.
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So, why say "it's bad for me to be on a townie lynch" rather than just "it's bad for me to be on the lynch"? Because it's just as bad for you to be on a scum lynch.
because i didn't want it to be obvious that my night action was tied to my vote...
deliberately
misleading
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A town player's weapon is their vote. Your power basically makes you choose between using your vote and using your night action.
Do people buy that? It seems a smidge bastardly to me.
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A town player's weapon is their vote. Your power basically makes you choose between using your vote and using your night action.
Do people buy that? It seems a smidge bastardly to me.
This is a really interesting thought. It does seem that taking away a town-members ability to use their vote for lynching because their night-action is presumably too important even to lynch scum seems very bastardly.
This seems a very bastardly role to give a towny, but a pretty powerful role to give scum. I'm not sure which one it is. Does anybody know of any meta for cayvie regarding how cayvie normally uses her vote? If there's a reasonable argument to be made, I could see this being a role that Robz gave cayvie before rolling for alignment.
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It seems a smidge bastardly to me.
it sure does, doesn't it
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I agree Scout is likely frisks card, because that's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect Robz to do with Scout. No way its a VT.
Vote: young nick
His reasoning for supposedly targeting ehalc doesn't make sense. Even after frying to know ehalc's card, how could he have been sure that he is town? I think its likely that he was indeed blocked (no reason to doubt that), and decided to claim to have tried something which didn't make sense as scum at all, namely targeting someone he knew would be killed anyway.
Also, we have quite a lot of investigative stuff already, and I think its likely that with such a lot loud those roles, one of them us Mafia. nick seems likeliest here, because his role might function as some kind of rolecop.
I can see how what cayvie did makes sense if he's town, and she already admitted yesterday she was deliberately misleading. However, I'm not sure yet wether to believe if its not all made up.
I'm not sure what to make of O, but if nick is indeed scum,I see no way O is too.
I'm super suspicious of ftl now for that hammer. Frisk wasn't mafia, so ftl knew he wasn't hammering mafia if he is such. VOTE: ftl More suspicious than YN at the moment.
I don't get this. Mafia always know wether they hammer Mafia or not. But if someone is town, he might think that the player he hammers is Mafia, so I don't see what's do special about this hammer in particular.
I gotta say I'm still quite suspicious of sparky, especially after he got the wine and ehalc died, but I guess we can wait for the wine result of next night before we go deeper into this.
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Bump?
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YN, who do you suspect?
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I'm super suspicious of ftl now for that hammer. Frisk wasn't mafia, so ftl knew he wasn't hammering mafia if he is such. VOTE: ftl More suspicious than YN at the moment.
I don't get this. Mafia always know wether they hammer Mafia or not. But if someone is town, he might think that the player he hammers is Mafia, so I don't see what's do special about this hammer in particular.
I gotta say I'm still quite suspicious of sparky, especially after he got the wine and ehalc died, but I guess we can wait for the wine result of next night before we go deeper into this.
i concur with this assessment
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Vote Count 4.3
Young Nick (6) -- yuma, ashersky, shraeye, jotheonah, ehunt, watno {L-3}
ftl (1) -- sparky5856
O (2) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7
Not voting (8) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick, O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?
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I thought I was voting for YN...I will have to go back and check.
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Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?
Already commented on the Young Nick wagon, I find his targetting of eHal to be a very townie thing to claim.
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Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?
well, i'll still answer:
i think young nick is an acceptable lynch for today. if it is not the case that scum==intrigue, his role is far less likely to be town.
vote: Cuzz
he's not my strongest townread, but i'm pretty sure he's where my vote belongs today.
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Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?
Already commented on the Young Nick wagon, I find his targetting of eHal to be a very townie thing to claim.
ok, but who would you vote for... mostly I am just saying that we are on the fifth day of today and I find it odd that 8 players, well 7 if you don't count cayvie, don't have votes on anyone. You don't want to vote for YN, who would you vote for, why aren't you voting for them?
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I thought I was voting for YN...I will have to go back and check.
Huh, I guess it never was. That must have all been yesterday before the card claim. I really should figure out YN to be honest, because he seems like the most scummy person here. He was on the wrong side of the Grujah wagon (just as I was) and has had periods of lurkiness. He seems scummy to me.
However, he claims to have investigated my card and is indeed correct about it. I do not believe that card-investigator must be a town role, however. I could easily see it being a scum role to hunt for power roles/SK.
And then he claims to have investigated eHal. We know the roleblock bit to be true but I don't know if there's any way to know whether he actually investigated eHal or if he investigated someone else and then claimed eHal after he saw he was roleblocked (in order to distance himself from the kill). If we could know for certain which of those two cases is true, we'd have a much better idea. As it is, I'm finding it hard to make up my mind on him.
But with ALL of that said, I do think he's certainly one of the most likely scum in this town, even if it's not a slam-dunk.
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But cayvie, Cuzz had the Ashersky-is-a-VT claim thing. It doesn't fully clear him but it definitely makes me not want to vote for him.
Was there another reason for the vote?
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But cayvie, Cuzz had the Ashersky-is-a-VT claim thing. It doesn't fully clear him but it definitely makes me not want to vote for him.
Was there another reason for the vote?
i wish to use my night action on him.
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YN, who do you suspect?
Cayvie (role shenanigans make her look less town), Theorel (his posts have rarely added content), O (I admit, his play-style seems scummy to me, so I can't tell).
The thing is that of the more frequent posters, I have to believe one of them is scum. This is to say that I would be amazed if the entire scum-team was lurking. The problem with this, though, is that I have no idea as to which of the more frequent posters would be scum. They all sound pro-town, save for Shraeye's hyperbole.
I guess I would have to say ehunt, but it's a gut-reaciton; I have no evidence to back why I support this. Sorry ehunt, I know that makes it hard for you to defend yourself.
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yeah, remember cayvie's votes are backward votes. Cayvie votes for townies.
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But cayvie, Cuzz had the Ashersky-is-a-VT claim thing. It doesn't fully clear him but it definitely makes me not want to vote for him.
Was there another reason for the vote?
i wish to use my night action on him.
...right. I forgot you not voting for your biggest scumreads.
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The thing about Cuzz is that I don't see why his role is guaranteed to be town-aligned, but mine is not. Both of us have roles that allow us to investigate a person and obtain some information regarding him/her. This information does not (to our knowledge) guarantee alignment.
I don't get why people find Cuzz to be town, partially due to his role, yet find me to be scummy, partially due to my role.
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@yuma I don't really have any strong scumreads this game, and the only person I've been trying to wrap my head around this game day is cayvie because I really don't know if I think her ability COULD be aligned with town.
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@yuma I don't really have any strong scumreads this game, and the only person I've been trying to wrap my head around this game day is cayvie because I really don't know if I think her ability COULD be aligned with town.
well, do you believe i'm telling the truth about my targets?
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@yuma I don't really have any strong scumreads this game, and the only person I've been trying to wrap my head around this game day is cayvie because I really don't know if I think her ability COULD be aligned with town.
well, do you believe i'm telling the truth about my targets?
Does that matter in terms of determining whether or not your role could belong to a town-aligned player?
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The thing about Cuzz is that I don't see why his role is guaranteed to be town-aligned, but mine is not. Both of us have roles that allow us to investigate a person and obtain some information regarding him/her. This information does not (to our knowledge) guarantee alignment.
I don't get why people find Cuzz to be town, partially due to his role, yet find me to be scummy, partially due to my role.
If I understand it correctly, Cuzz's thing did guarantee alignment...or at least he claimed it did. VT is a townie. But he hasn't had the same sort of results at other times. But a card-investigator is not really guaranteed to be anything since we know so little about the card names.
Since we've lynched scum 3 times in a row and are nowhere near being end-gamed, I could see a case being made for leaving YN alive and directing his investigation, and then depending on the result thinking about lynching that person (or YN perhaps). O had better not roleblock him, though there could be scum roleblockers too (of course O could be a scum roleblocker himself). That might help us get a better feel for YN and whoever he investigates.
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wait, has cuzz claimed a role other than "i have this information somehow"?
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wait, has cuzz claimed a role other than "i have this information somehow"?
Not that I know of, that's not what I meant to imply there. I'm just saying that if Cuzz is telling the truth, then he was sure of the alignment of this person. Because he did specifically say VT.
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From what I could tell, he inferred that they were VT based on reading descriptions. He didn't claim, but we all figured that he was a semi-naïve description cop. So let's say he gets to give Robz two people a night and receives one of their descriptions, but he does not know which. From this description, Cuzz said, well "A or B must be town." He did not have concrete evidence. He was just that sure of the VT-ness of the description.
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Here are some thoughts. Let's start discussions.
1. Ftl [no ideas]
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss) [suspiciously odd]
3. Insomniac [I recall suspicion but can't recall why]
4. Dsell [townish per eHalc]
5. Jotheonah [strong town read]
6. Young Nick [scum]
7. O (2) (replaced Voltaire) [no idea at all]
8. Axxle [scummy]
9. Cayvie [strange, neutral slight-scum]
10. Shraeye [i'm me, i'm different]
11. Cuzz [probtown]
12. Yuma [medium town]
13. theorel (replaced ibgtennis) [townfeel despite crazy lurking]
14. Morgrim7 [scum feel, really hasn't contributed much at all in a while]
15. Watno [townfeel]
16. ehunt [neutral]
17. ashersky [strong townread]
I'll come back in tonight and pick some of the people that I can't even recall any reads on. I'll read them up and see what I get.
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i am finding it odd, actually, how many people are giving O a pass for admittedly roleblocking a claimed cop
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From what I could tell, he inferred that they were VT based on reading descriptions. He didn't claim, but we all figured that he was a semi-naïve description cop. So let's say he gets to give Robz two people a night and receives one of their descriptions, but he does not know which. From this description, Cuzz said, well "A or B must be town." He did not have concrete evidence. He was just that sure of the VT-ness of the description.
Exactly, Dsell is remembering this wrong. Cuzz said he knew a description, and assumed it was related to town. I'm not totally clearing Cuzz just because of his ability, but it does have a townier feel than card-reading YN. That is because this essentially does the same thing that Galzria's cup of wine does, let's people learn about descriptions. So there already is a town with description-exposing powers, and it makes sense for me for that to be a town-aligned power in general.
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10. Shraeye [i'm me, i'm different]
This sounds scummy. I know it's a minor nitpick and all, but if you were town, you would say so. People don't like to lie. So instead of saying that you are town when you aren't, you say "I'm different." This way you don't admit your alignment, but don't have to lie, either. Half-truth for the win!
Anyway, I have other reasons to think you are scum, but your analysis is thought-provoking at the very least, so I can't say I am comfortable with your lynch. Having said that, I do feel strongly enough to vote: shraeye.
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I am going to be pretty honest here. I am not going to vote for anyone on Grujah's wagon today. I am just not, at least not today. In my mind we are in the same place that we were Day 2 immediately after Grujah's lynch except that now we have lynched two serial killers.
Yes, we do have some more information and we should use it, but most of it is, well unsubstantial. A lot of it could go either way and is hard to interpret. Now you could say that voting on/off wagon is the same. On/off wagon will contain town and it will contain scum and isn't a guarantee. But I am simply going back to mafia 101 and going to vote those who have a high probability of being someone who 1. defended their scummate 2. didn't vote for their scummate. To remind everyone of who those individuals are I'll list them.
Insomniac, cayvie, Young Nick, Voltaire O, TheMunch, ashersky, ibgtennis theorel, shraeye, sparky5856, Dsell, Grujah,Captain_Frisk
In order of people that I am willing to lynch:
1. Young Nick
2. sparky
3. theorl
4. insomniac
5. shraeye
6. cayvie
7. O
8. Dsell
9. ashersky
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I think we need a softdeadline to get things moving here.
Also I agree with yuma that we should lynch off wagon today.
Vote: cayvie
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I would suggest Thursday at midnight... as the deadline is Tuesday... and we can't rely on people being around over the weekend... and it would be nice to have a few days after the softdeadline to spare if we can't get to a lynch by the softdeadline.
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I would suggest Thursday at midnight... as the deadline is Tuesday... and we can't rely on people being around over the weekend... and it would be nice to have a few days after the softdeadline to spare if we can't get to a lynch by the softdeadline.
Sounds good to me.
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insomniac:
@yuma I don't really have any strong scumreads this game, and the only person I've been trying to wrap my head around this game day is cayvie because I really don't know if I think her ability COULD be aligned with town.
well, do you believe i'm telling the truth about my targets?
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insomniac:
@yuma I don't really have any strong scumreads this game, and the only person I've been trying to wrap my head around this game day is cayvie because I really don't know if I think her ability COULD be aligned with town.
well, do you believe i'm telling the truth about my targets?
I have no reason to not believe you.
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so, you believe i targeted Young Nick, then ehunt, then Young Nick?
and the only negative thing that's happened to them, so far (that we know if), is that Young Nick was roleblocked last night, which O has claimed responsibility for?
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Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?
I wasn't voting for YN because it seemed silly to lynch a proven investigative role. Haven't heard convincing arguments for other targets, though, so wasn't voting yet.
I don't really mind a YN lynch THAT much because the active people in this town have been pretty good at finding scum and so I'm fine with sheeping them eventually.
Soft deadline sounds good.
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so, you believe i targeted Young Nick, then ehunt, then Young Nick?
and the only negative thing that's happened to them, so far (that we know if), is that Young Nick was roleblocked last night, which O has claimed responsibility for?
To be honest you could be an investigative role of some sort for mafia/town. If you were a watcher I think you would have called out O sooner. If you're a tracker I suspect you would have called out Young Nick sooner for targeting eHal on a night he died, so I have to conclude I have no idea what your ability does, but as town to have to be off a lynch wagon to use your ability is pretty bad. Where as as scum its a prime reason to not lynch scum and to not lynch town.
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To be honest you could be an investigative role of some sort for mafia/town. If you were a watcher I think you would have called out O sooner.
this makes no sense.
were I a watcher, why would I out O as having a night action?
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if it is not the case that scum==intrigue, his role is far less likely to be town.
Err... my card is intrigue and I am not scum. Probably should have mentioned it before.
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if it is not the case that scum==intrigue, his role is far less likely to be town.
Err... my card is intrigue and I am not scum. Probably should have mentioned it before.
(if i were paying closer attention to this game)
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ahh, sorry, had it backwards, the theory was that town==intrigue
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I want to lynch one of cayvie, YN, and shraeye. Mostly because of who the mafia targeted. They should have gone for one of these power roles. Maybe they didn't target YN because his role is useless, but they probably should have targeted cayvie who has this role that they have no idea what it does and might be too dangerous to let live. I want to lynch shraeye because eHalcyon was very critical of him yesterday.
Vote: shraeye
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i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?
he role-blocked a claimed power role.
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i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?
he role-blocked a claimed power role.
Maybe he wanted his power to work (as opposed to role-blocking a VT)? Maybe he was suspicious?
I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours.
How's the Shraeye wagon? I think I could be convinced on that.
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i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?
he role-blocked a claimed power role.
Maybe he wanted his power to work (as opposed to role-blocking a VT)? Maybe he was suspicious?
I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours.
How's the Shraeye wagon? I think I could be convinced on that.
yes, and WHY ON EARTH NOT????
you DON'T ROLEBLOCK COPS
the first reason you supply is a TERRIBLE reason to use your role as town. also, O has given the explanation of "i didn't notice he was a power role"
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which, like, do you really buy that?
do you really buy that O used a one-shot roleblock without checking to see if that player had claimed? you know, THAT DAY?
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i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?
he role-blocked a claimed power role.
Maybe he wanted his power to work (as opposed to role-blocking a VT)? Maybe he was suspicious?
I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours.
How's the Shraeye wagon? I think I could be convinced on that.
yes, and WHY ON EARTH NOT????
you DON'T ROLEBLOCK COPS
the first reason you supply is a TERRIBLE reason to use your role as town. also, O has given the explanation of "i didn't notice he was a power role"
I didn't say it was a good reason. Just trying to come up with one.
O, where are you? Anything more helpful to say?
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which, like, do you really buy that?
do you really buy that O used a one-shot roleblock without checking to see if that player had claimed? you know, THAT DAY?
honestly I do... I am wary of it, but I am inclined to believe it... because O as mafia had no reason to tell us. Sure wine there... But if he was scum, why would he be so bold and crazy as to tell us that he used a one-shot roleblock w/o checking to see if that player had claimed? People would then jump on him for doing so raising his suspicion level...
O doing it as town makes more sense than O doing it as scum.
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oh
oh!
what if he thinks I might be a watcher
if he's scum, he knows i'm town, and telling the truth with my role hints.
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so, like, he roleblocks YN, and then is like, wait, what if cayvie's a watcher, and saw me do that? AAA EMERGENCY CLAIM IGNORANCE
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so, like, he roleblocks YN, and then is like, wait, what if cayvie's a watcher, and saw me do that? AAA EMERGENCY CLAIM IGNORANCE
you know what would help us solve this little mystery? lynching young nick....
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so, like, he roleblocks YN, and then is like, wait, what if cayvie's a watcher, and saw me do that? AAA EMERGENCY CLAIM IGNORANCE
you know what would help us solve this little mystery? lynching young nick....
yeah, that's true
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Why just roleblock and not kill though?
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Also I agree with yuma that we should lynch off wagon today.
Me too, I'll focus on the cross section of off-grujah-wagon and people worth reading from my list of reads.
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Heres the thing though you are all saying O is scummy because he roleblocked Young Nick. but your also saying that Young Nick is scummy. So if O decided Young Nick is scummy why wouldn't he roleblock him...? (This is a serious question for the people that are saying both are scummy)
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which, like, do you really buy that?
do you really buy that O used a one-shot roleblock without checking to see if that player had claimed? you know, THAT DAY?
it is a big pill to swallow, and you now have an answer to the question "but why did he tell us" that i don't hate.
unvote for now.
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so, like, he roleblocks YN, and then is like, wait, what if cayvie's a watcher, and saw me do that? AAA EMERGENCY CLAIM IGNORANCE
This is a theory that has at least some merit, it seems.
Also, when did I become a power role?
I want to lynch one of cayvie, YN, and shraeye. Mostly because of who the mafia targeted. They should have gone for one of these power roles. Maybe they didn't target YN because his role is useless, but they probably should have targeted cayvie who has this role that they have no idea what it does and might be too dangerous to let live. I want to lynch shraeye because eHalcyon was very critical of him yesterday.
Vote: shraeye
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Heres the thing though you are all saying O is scummy because he roleblocked Young Nick. but your also saying that Young Nick is scummy. So if O decided Young Nick is scummy why wouldn't he roleblock him...? (This is a serious question for the people that are saying both are scummy)
because, even if you think someone is scummy, you still don't roleblock a claimed (and partially confirmed) investigative role.
MAYBE you vig them, if your read is strong enough.
but roleblocking them just leaves you with less evidence to lynch them with the following day.
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It's hard to imagine me having anything helpful to say when I wasn't even able to discern that YN was a claimed PR.
I didn't have many reads since I wasn't paying much attention, I latched onto some random thing YN said and basically just chose only slightly better than randomly.
Also when did Cayvie claim watcher?
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i didn't.
but i have claimed a power role who targeted young nick last night.
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It's hard to imagine me having anything helpful to say when I wasn't even able to discern that YN was a claimed PR.
I didn't have many reads since I wasn't paying much attention, I latched onto some random thing YN said and basically just chose only slightly better than randomly.
Also when did Cayvie claim watcher?
what random thing YN said?
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It's hard to imagine me having anything helpful to say when I wasn't even able to discern that YN was a claimed PR.
I didn't have many reads since I wasn't paying much attention, I latched onto some random thing YN said and basically just chose only slightly better than randomly.
Also when did Cayvie claim watcher?
so why did you use a 1-shot ability at all?
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Why are you fishing?
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Why are you fishing?
MXI: where the claims
never
make
ANY
sense
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it does not make sense to use a pseudo-investigative role to investigate ehalc. it just doesn't. nobody has defended this. even young nick hasn't really defended it.
it also doesn't make sense for YN to tell us he investigated ehalc.
it does not make sense to roleblock young nick. it makes sense not to care about a game (i guess), but it doesn't make sense to use a night action without doing minimal work. yes, O played the last two games he was town in sloppy, but not this sloppy.
it does not make sense for O to tell us that he roleblocked young nick if O is scum.
either many people are playing a bafflingly unstrategic game, or there is a deceptive conspiracy.
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Why are you fishing?
How is asking about past actions that you are theoretically out of at this point role-fishing at all?
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i rather like cayvie's story on O. from yesterday's position cayvie's role looks a heck of a lot like watcher. i sorta was leaning toward "Cayvie is mafia and just massively screwed up by voting for young nick, forgetting that she said she had to vote for her biggest town read" a la ehalc's cross-ex of her which at the time i found rather devastating. but "watcher" explains exactly why cayvie acted the way she acted.
cayvie, i am not asking you to claim. what i am saying is that it's very reasonable that, if cayvie is town, mafia computed that she was watcher, regardless of whether she is, and this actually explains the weird action catastrophe from today; this explanation is most consistent with YN being town and O being scum. of course i have to buy that cayvie is town to buy this; occam's razor may be that YN and cayvie are scum. i like my vote where it is for now (on nobody).
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unvote because nobody cares about that front.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the different possible scenarios regarding this YN/O drama and can't come up with anything. I'm actually warming to a YN lynch right now. Nothing makes sense at the moment. >_<
I'll reread the last couple pages with the fact that cayvie may be watcher in mind for later, when I don't have a headache.
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this is a good point. A town player with a 1-shot roleblock does not throw it out without doing minimal research. He says "I'll hold on to it, might need it later."
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Why are you fishing?
you already claimed that action, dude
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this is a good point. A town player with a 1-shot roleblock does not throw it out without doing minimal research. He says "I'll hold on to it, might need it later."
the problem is that O has played sorta sloppy in his last couple games as town. i can see him doing this, especially if he was compelled to use the action for role-related reasons we don't understand.
but i dislike how he says it was some quote (which he hasn't yet posted back for us) yn made that made yn seem scummy. it's like, if you read him closely enough to find a random quote - maybe you should have noticed all the other business?
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Vote: O
Policy.
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Why are you fishing?
you already claimed that action, dude
And you asked me to provide reasons why I might decide to use that action that night even though I had little information.
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this is a good point. A town player with a 1-shot roleblock does not throw it out without doing minimal research. He says "I'll hold on to it, might need it later."
the problem is that O has played sorta sloppy in his last couple games as town. i can see him doing this, especially if he was compelled to use the action for role-related reasons we don't understand.
but i dislike how he says it was some quote (which he hasn't yet posted back for us) yn made that made yn seem scummy. it's like, if you read him closely enough to find a random quote - maybe you should have noticed all the other business?
If by "playing sort of sloppy" you mean "people refuse to give up on changing O's meta and thus try to lynch him every game regardless" then yes, I agree.
MXII it was impossible for me to focus scum when all townies are focusing me.
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it does not make sense to use a pseudo-investigative role to investigate ehalc. it just doesn't. nobody has defended this. even young nick hasn't really defended it.
it also doesn't make sense for YN to tell us he investigated ehalc.
it does not make sense to roleblock young nick. it makes sense not to care about a game (i guess), but it doesn't make sense to use a night action without doing minimal work. yes, O played the last two games he was town in sloppy, but not this sloppy.
it does not make sense for O to tell us that he roleblocked young nick if O is scum.
either many people are playing a bafflingly unstrategic game, or there is a deceptive conspiracy.
I admit that my decision to target eHalc was pretty crummy. I had honestly forgotten about his town-ish description that Dsell had told us about. It is true that I put little weight in it, in fact this is one of the main reasons I forgot about it. If I don't weigh it heavily, I won't be as inclined to remember its existence. It was bad, I admit. I still am OK with my decision to target someone who is "obvtown," though.
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this is a good point. A town player with a 1-shot roleblock does not throw it out without doing minimal research. He says "I'll hold on to it, might need it later."
the problem is that O has played sorta sloppy in his last couple games as town. i can see him doing this, especially if he was compelled to use the action for role-related reasons we don't understand.
but i dislike how he says it was some quote (which he hasn't yet posted back for us) yn made that made yn seem scummy. it's like, if you read him closely enough to find a random quote - maybe you should have noticed all the other business?
If by "playing sort of sloppy" you mean "people refuse to give up on changing O's meta and thus try to lynch him every game regardless" then yes, I agree.
MXII it was impossible for me to focus scum when all townies are focusing me.
"I stand by quickhammers as a fine and useful tool for town."
--O in Mafia XII
those foolish townies, focusing on O
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this is a good point. A town player with a 1-shot roleblock does not throw it out without doing minimal research. He says "I'll hold on to it, might need it later."
the problem is that O has played sorta sloppy in his last couple games as town. i can see him doing this, especially if he was compelled to use the action for role-related reasons we don't understand.
but i dislike how he says it was some quote (which he hasn't yet posted back for us) yn made that made yn seem scummy. it's like, if you read him closely enough to find a random quote - maybe you should have noticed all the other business?
If by "playing sort of sloppy" you mean "people refuse to give up on changing O's meta and thus try to lynch him every game regardless" then yes, I agree.
MXII it was impossible for me to focus scum when all townies are focusing me.
"I stand by quickhammers as a fine and useful tool for town."
--O in Mafia XII
those foolish townies, focusing on O
Like I said, Meta-differences. If you say "ZOMG ANY QUICKHAMMER IS SCUM" you can drive people up (say, scumbuddies) to L-1 as scum and reap the benefits without the risk of actually lynching them (because people will back off and say "omg look how quickly that wagon formed".
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the problem, dude, is that you seem to be angling for a meta that is
"O gets to do whatever he wants because he's O and lynching him for it is stupid"
that meta is pro-O, but anti-town.
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eh, this discussion is not particularly relevant to this game
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Vote Count 4.4
Young Nick (5) -- yuma, ashersky, shraeye, jotheonah, watno
O (4) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7, Axxle
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
shraeye (1) -- Young Nick
cayvie (1) -- Insomniac
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Dsell, O, theorel, ehunt, sparky5856
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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the problem, dude, is that you seem to be angling for a meta that is
"O gets to do whatever he wants because he's O and lynching him for it is stupid"
that meta is pro-O, but anti-town.
No, that's what everyone seems to enjoy calling it.
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At this time, it seems like there are four main paths that people are considering:
(in no particular order)
1. O
2. Shraeye
3. Cayvie
4. Young Nick
I would say it makes the most sense for us to focus on this group of four and not get too sidetracked with others unless something warrants it.
I do agree with those who say that it is not possible for both me and O to be scum. It would be too counter-productive unless O claims to roleblock me, but that's a lot of WIFOM. Mafia would have been better off letting the real role-blocker reveal themselves.
Also, me and O can't be scum because I am not. That's the more obvious one. What I am trying to say is that when O flips Mafia, I would be cleared.
I do like Cayvie's theory regarding O's confession to blocking me.
Right now, Cayvie is super-hard to read. The main thing against her is that it seems that her role would be too bastard as town, but there is no inditement on her playing in itself. Mafia could just claim this at the start of the game and be smooth-sailing as they never have to vote for scum-buddies, I guess, but I don't see that happening.
Shraeye has had many things that seem scummy, but it does not compare to O at the moment so vote: O.
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Looking at the vote count it really seems to be between me and O, however multiple people have expressed suspicion and/or willingness to lynch both Shraeye and Cayvie.
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O, what was the quotation that made you find YN scummy?
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Looking at the vote count it really seems to be between me and O, however multiple people have expressed suspicion and/or willingness to lynch both Shraeye and Cayvie.
i imagine that i will pick between one of you and O and that if this doesn't work I'll pick the other one tomorrow.
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i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.
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ashersky's not on the gruj-wagon and isn't part of the weird cuzz-induced town-probably-information-bomb, right?
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unvote cuzzbomb makes ashersky look better which makes o look better.
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vote:young nick
if he flips town i think O is likely scum.i guess we don't learn much if he flips scum, but hey, it will be the third day in a row we've hit scum and not learned much, so that's cool.
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unvote cuzzbomb makes ashersky look better which makes o look better.
were you voting O because of your read on ashersky?
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unvote cuzzbomb makes ashersky look better which makes o look better.
were you voting O because of your read on ashersky?
i thought ashersky's conversation with you today was superscummy and seemed like mafia defending fellow mafia, which in turn made O look worse, but, in fact, ashersky is as confirmed town as we're going to get at this point, so that whole narrative kinda fell apart.
but no, there's plenty of reason to vote for O to go around, not just the ashersky business.
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I am definitely suspicious of the people who we haven't heard from in a while. To me, that is morgrim, theorel, cuzz, axxle, o. Theorel definitely seems the worst to me.
His posts seem to lack a certain content and it feels like he is here but just not active.
I still find shraeye super scummy, but for now, his re-reads with commentary are too valuable to lose. I do fear that he is the new f.DS scum, being too helpful and thus avoiding suspicion. However, I can't back that up except with my gut.
So vote: theorel. His (/ibgtennis's) complete lack of posting has gotten out of hand.
I felt like I lurked harder and that calling posts "lacking of a certain content" was a cop-out excuse to force a vote on someone.
It wasn't very much to go on in retrospect.
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Reasons to vote O:
I lurked hard
I didn't read
policy
Reasons not to vote O:
I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.
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I am definitely suspicious of the people who we haven't heard from in a while. To me, that is morgrim, theorel, cuzz, axxle, o. Theorel definitely seems the worst to me.
His posts seem to lack a certain content and it feels like he is here but just not active.
I still find shraeye super scummy, but for now, his re-reads with commentary are too valuable to lose. I do fear that he is the new f.DS scum, being too helpful and thus avoiding suspicion. However, I can't back that up except with my gut.
So vote: theorel. His (/ibgtennis's) complete lack of posting has gotten out of hand.
I felt like I lurked harder and that calling posts "lacking of a certain content" was a cop-out excuse to force a vote on someone.
It wasn't very much to go on in retrospect.
actually this is interesting. of that list of people, i'd rank them subjectively from least lurky to most lurky as
cuzz < theorel < morgrim < axxle < O
(this is as of end of day yesterday when it was relevant, not as of now, obviously). you can throw YN a bone for morg-sanity but it's still weird he picked theorel over axxle or you.
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Reasons not to vote O:
I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.
everybody knows for a fact that cayvie targeted young nick last night. the assertion is watcher, not tracker.... which is something you definitely understood earlier in the evening. you are pretending not to understand!
vote: O
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Reasons not to vote O:
I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.
everybody knows for a fact that cayvie targeted young nick last night. the assertion is watcher, not tracker.... which is something you definitely understood earlier in the evening. you are pretending not to understand!
vote: O
or I don't have a goddamn clue what's happening.
where did cayvie claim this?
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Reasons not to vote O:
I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.
everybody knows for a fact that cayvie targeted young nick last night. the assertion is watcher, not tracker.... which is something you definitely understood earlier in the evening. you are pretending not to understand!
vote: O
or I don't have a goddamn clue what's happening.
where did cayvie claim this?
cayvie didn't claim watcher. cayvie argued that it's likely that mafia (possibly falsely) assumed she was watcher, based on who she targeted each of the three nights, and that this explains why you came forward with the roleblock of young nick, because everyone knows cayvie targeted young nick last night.
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(it's basically the story you transmogrified into being a story about a tracker, except it makes a lot more sense because it doesn't involve you freaking out about cayvie tracking you [which would be ludicrous], it involves you freaking out about cayvie watching someone whom you know that cayvie targeted)
except, i don't even think i have to explain this to you, i'm pretty sure you were following the thread a few hours ago when all this went down. you even asked "is cayvie claiming watcher?" and it was explained several times that this didn't happen but it was a perception argument. i really think you are feigning ignorance here.
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unvote nothing's right. i'm torn. i'm all out of faith. this is how i feel. etc.
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i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.
I will say, I have no real take on O. I was just trying to come up with reasons he did what he did. I could switch if that's the better lynch.
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Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?
Catching up...
(unlike many people) I don't feel a pressing need to vote for my biggest scum-read just because they're my biggest scum-read. I generally approach the game very differently from others, votes are about pacing, and by controlling my vote I help control the pacing of the game, hopefully to the benefit of town. In the same vein that I don't say "yn did one suspicious thing therefore he must be scum", I don't say, "yn is my biggest scum-read therefore I want to see him lynched". What I want to see is conversation about the lynch, whether it should happen, etc. At some point, if the conversation seems exhausted, I'll vote. Personally I think you can get a lot of useful information by not voting and talking and listening instead. This was how I determined that joth was town in MXII (though that ultimately didn't help since people refused to listen, preferring to just vote wherever they "felt" like scum would be).
Anyways, here's my interpretation of current events:
Young Nick:
1. He offered himself as a sacrifice for another player. In spite of the fact that EVERYONE always thinks this is a scum move, it so far never has been. The result thus far has been that we've always lynched the offerer, and he's always been town. Stupidest meta ever. (result slight town)
2. He's a flavor cop. Initially I was on board with his investigative powers seeming kind of scummy, then I went and looked it up. As far as mafia-wiki is concerned flavor cops are usually town aligned. (result slightly town)
3. He claimed to target eHalcyon at night. This was either a bad town play or a bad scum play or a lie. Well 2 out of three are scum reasons, and I like to think people that are playing what to me seems badly are in fact just scum playing well. (result slightly scum).
4. He's a little lurky. Whatever, this game is huge and impossible to engage in. Some players can engage in games like this, some can't. This is definitely a player-style thing, not a town v. scum thing.
Basically Young Nick seems townier than null, but not significantly.
O:
He's starting to participate now that he's being called out. This looks a lot like both Grujah and Frisk. Everything else he's done has been anti-town. But whatever, everything he did in MXII was anti-town also and he was town there, so obviously that's not useful information regarding O's alignment. Thursday midnight soft-deadline is suggested...so I'll vote here tomorrow if nothing changes.
shraeye:
He seems to have calmed down of late? I dunno, I certainly don't feel as repulsed by his recent posts. He posted his "reads" on everyone which is helpful. This is probably as close as I'll get to that though.
cayvie:
She's clarified that she was being intentionally misleading (which I had missed the first time, so thanks for reposting it). As she herself has noted: her targets make little sense if she's scum. So, if she's scum she's lying. For the moment, she feels honest...I'm not sure if I could identify scum-cayvie though.
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At this time, it seems like there are four main paths that people are considering:
(in no particular order)
1. O
2. Shraeye
3. Cayvie
4. Young Nick
I would say it makes the most sense for us to focus on this group of four and not get too sidetracked with others unless something warrants it.
I do agree with those who say that it is not possible for both me and O to be scum. It would be too counter-productive unless O claims to roleblock me, but that's a lot of WIFOM. Mafia would have been better off letting the real role-blocker reveal themselves.
Also, me and O can't be scum because I am not. That's the more obvious one. What I am trying to say is that when O flips Mafia, I would be cleared.
I do like Cayvie's theory regarding O's confession to blocking me.
Right now, Cayvie is super-hard to read. The main thing against her is that it seems that her role would be too bastard as town, but there is no inditement on her playing in itself. Mafia could just claim this at the start of the game and be smooth-sailing as they never have to vote for scum-buddies, I guess, but I don't see that happening.
Shraeye has had many things that seem scummy, but it does not compare to O at the moment so vote: O.
You COULD both be scum. I dislike that it's YOU saying one or the other has to be town. That's a great thing for scummates to set up.
Here's the narrative. You're a scum card cop. Your actual action is something (even more indefensible) so you agreed to claim to be roleblocked and O agreed to corroborate your claim.
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the problem, dude, is that you seem to be angling for a meta that is
"O gets to do whatever he wants because he's O and lynching him for it is stupid"
that meta is pro-O, but anti-town.
No, that's what everyone seems to enjoy calling it.
"Imma use my one shot power and not pay attention to claims." Sounds like O doing what O want's to do to me.
I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4983.msg126630#msg126630).
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Vote Count 4.5
Young Nick (5) -- yuma, ashersky, shraeye, jotheonah, watno,
O (5) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7, Axxle, Young Nick
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
cayvie (1) -- Insomniac
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Dsell, O, theorel, sparky5856, ehunt
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4983.msg126630#msg126630).
I still don't get how me being scum explains the night kill. Do you still think I'm a power role?
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I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4983.msg126630#msg126630).
I still don't get how me being scum explains the night kill. Do you still think I'm a power role?
I misspoke. I meant that I would think they'd kill either cayvie or YN, known power roles. They killed eHalc, so one explanation is that either cayvie or YN are scum power roles. Another explanation is that they were trying to silence eHalc for some reason, and you jump out as someone who eHalc was very critical of.
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I'd still prefer a shraeye lynch since that best explains the night kill, but a YN or O lynch has become agreeable in light of 841 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4983.msg126630#msg126630).
I still don't get how me being scum explains the night kill. Do you still think I'm a power role?
I misspoke. I meant that I would think they'd kill either cayvie or YN, known power roles. They killed eHalc, so one explanation is that either cayvie or YN are scum power roles. Another explanation is that they were trying to silence eHalc for some reason, and you jump out as someone who eHalc was very critical of.
I think the best explanation for the eHalc kill is that eHalc was confirmed town and was working really hard in a way that a lot of other folks weren't (and still aren't). If I were scum and YN were not, I would absolutely not have killed YN because there was so much suspicion on him yesterday and the Frisk-flip didn't clear him at all.
I would have considered Cayvie in the same situation, although Cayvie was at least partially frameable as well. Now that I think about it, I guess we should suspect Cuzz epsilon more due to the fact that scum didn't kill him, since Cuzz was looking pretty town and also like he had a mild power role after his claim. But I think eHalc was a very logical scumkill, regardless of claimed PRs.
Also, for the last two nights at least, scum has shot "loud people," i.e. people who are working hard. Seems like a good strategy in the absence of other information.
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I just want to check in and say I had not previously considered the idea of me and O both being scum. In that case, yeah it would make oh-so-much sense for me to claim role-block by him. So touché to whoever pointed that out.
Not sure what else to say, so yeah.
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Not voting (86) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Young Nick O, Axxle, cayvie, theorel
what do the six of you--i am not counting Young Nick or cayvie in this--specifically have to say about Young Nick and the wagon on young nick? Who would you vote for instead and why aren't you voting for either young nick or that person?
Personally I think you can get a lot of useful information by not voting and talking and listening instead. This was how I determined that joth was town in MXII (though that ultimately didn't help since people refused to listen, preferring to just vote wherever they "felt" like scum would be).
I understand what you are saying. I too often am very conservative with my vote and I think it makes sense in the context of a smaller game. But in this game, with so many players, offering so many opinions about different players, it is hard to follow who is suspicious of who. For this reason I want to see votes. Votes can be tracked, they are monitored and they are compiled by Robz and put into vote counts. It is what I see and what I go to when I try to catch up on the status of the game.
even now, after just reading your synopsis of the 4 players you list, I can't remember what you had to say about which, but a vote... now that I would remember. Not voting in this game reads hedgy and noncommital, waiting for the opportune moment... ie... it reads scummy to me.
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Why is the deadline on Tuesday already?
Looking at some of ashersky's most recent posts, i get a really scummy impression
i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?
he role-blocked a claimed power role.
Maybe he wanted his power to work (as opposed to role-blocking a VT)? Maybe he was suspicious?
I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours.
How's the Shraeye wagon? I think I could be convinced on that.
i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.
I will say, I have no real take on O. I was just trying to come up with reasons he did what he did. I could switch if that's the better lynch.
One thing is, that he completely avoids taking stances. He comes up with reasons for what O did, but says he doesn't have a take on him. He says he could be convinced of a shraeye lynch, and says he'd vote O if thats the better lynch. So if he ends up on a wagon lynching town at the end of the day, he can distance himself from all responsibility, saying he only did what others told him too.
I also don't like this sentence: "I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours". I think this might be a way to make cayvie believe that noone will follow him in voting O, and therefoore it's useless to keep his vote there. So this reads like a defense of O to me.
I know Cuzz claimed to know ashersky was a VT, but from his later response i think it's well possible that he read more into the description he received than there really was, namely the town part in addition to the vanilla part.
I also really don't like how quiet asherskyhas become after that. I'd expect a town player to beome more active after getting cred this way, but I can see scum just sitting back after that.
Considering O - Young Nick, I think its likely that exactly one of the is scum. Both scum just really doesnt seem to work for me, and if they were both town they would be managing to be very scummy in doing so. Although I did think Young Nick was the more likely scum of the two before, asherskies behaviour towards O and the possible explanation for Os behaviour if he is scum now give the edge to O.
So I'll vote ashersky for now, but if it comes down to a decison between Young Nick and O, as it's looking right now, I will switch to O.
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Why is the deadline on Tuesday already?
Looking at some of ashersky's most recent posts, i get a really scummy impression
i reiterate, why does there seem to be no suspicion on O?
he role-blocked a claimed power role.
Maybe he wanted his power to work (as opposed to role-blocking a VT)? Maybe he was suspicious?
I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours.
How's the Shraeye wagon? I think I could be convinced on that.
i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.
I will say, I have no real take on O. I was just trying to come up with reasons he did what he did. I could switch if that's the better lynch.
One thing is, that he completely avoids taking stances. He comes up with reasons for what O did, but says he doesn't have a take on him. He says he could be convinced of a shraeye lynch, and says he'd vote O if thats the better lynch. So if he ends up on a wagon lynching town at the end of the day, he can distance himself from all responsibility, saying he only did what others told him too.
I also don't like this sentence: "I don't know, but he doesn't seem to be raising anyone's eyebrows but yours". I think this might be a way to make cayvie believe that noone will follow him in voting O, and therefoore it's useless to keep his vote there. So this reads like a defense of O to me.
I know Cuzz claimed to know ashersky was a VT, but from his later response i think it's well possible that he read more into the description he received than there really was, namely the town part in addition to the vanilla part.
I also really don't like how quiet asherskyhas become after that. I'd expect a town player to beome more active after getting cred this way, but I can see scum just sitting back after that.
Considering O - Young Nick, I think its likely that exactly one of the is scum. Both scum just really doesnt seem to work for me, and if they were both town they would be managing to be very scummy in doing so. Although I did think Young Nick was the more likely scum of the two before, asherskies behaviour towards O and the possible explanation for Os behaviour if he is scum now give the edge to O.
So I'll vote ashersky for now, but if it comes down to a decison between Young Nick and O, as it's looking right now, I will switch to O.
This post seems like a crazy shot in the dark and attempt to redirect. I'm basically an IC at this point--mafia won't waste an NK on me--why would you try to lynch me now? Just to get rid of a town vote?
On the flip side, you'll look pretty terrible if you succeed.
My vote's still on YN, as you may note. I'm still okay to flip my vote to O if needed. As many have said, including you, one of them is most probably mafia.
Wasn't Watno close to being lynched at some point? Maybe we should get back to looking closely at him?
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ashersky: as far as i'm concerned watno gets a pass for now b/c gruj-wagon. yeah, he forgot that you were confirmed town. i'd find that a little scummy (mostly because O famously did it in MIV when he was scum) except i did it myself last night.
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Why is the deadline on Tuesday already?
The deadline was moved up 2 days. Activity in the thread was drawn out enough yesterday that I thought this was appropriate. After all, a game with 25 player has become a game with 17 players.
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If you are talking about Cuzzs claim, I explained about that in my post: According to the information Cuzz has given us, I think it's well possible that Cuzz is scum. If i remember right, Cuzz said the description was something along the lines of "can't do anything special", which would still allow for ashersky to be a mafia goon with no additional abilities. I will look up what exactly he said tomorrow, since it's the middle of the night here and I'm too lazy right now.
Also, what do you mean by "if your vote is needed on O", ashersky? If you believe YN is scum rather than O, this makes no sense at all.
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Also, what do you mean by "if your vote is needed on O", ashersky? If you believe YN is scum rather than O, this makes no sense at all.
I mean if we get near deadline and O's the lynch candidate, I'm not holding it up by saying "nope staying on YN no matter what pbbt." One's scum, right? Town consensus will decide which one is more likely. I'm with the town.
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Hello all, my wife started having some contractions, might be having a baby later tonight...so I'm gonna go ahead and Vote: O, since I might not be here tomorrow when I said I would make it a vote.
@yuma: I can understand your desire for a "record" of votes. But I don't really think that voting records are the best indicator of reads anyways. Some people are free with votes, others tighter, this is a player-thing, not a scum/town-thing.
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Hello all, my wife started having some contractions, might be having a baby later tonight...so I'm gonna go ahead and Vote: O, since I might not be here tomorrow when I said I would make it a vote.
@yuma: I can understand your desire for a "record" of votes. But I don't really think that voting records are the best indicator of reads anyways. Some people are free with votes, others tighter, this is a player-thing, not a scum/town-thing.
best reason for voting ever. good luck!
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This post seems like a crazy shot in the dark and attempt to redirect. I'm basically an IC at this point--mafia won't waste an NK on me--why would you try to lynch me now? Just to get rid of a town vote?
No. ashersky isn't basically an IC at this point. he can get the cuzz pass for now, but there are still are cases where you are scum. When cuzz made his final clarification of the description he got, i got really excited, because it also matched mine. I got wrist-slapped, the thread got locked, remember? That means that it's possible that the descrip-info was only mine all along. And ashersky just jumped at a chance to be called town.
It comes off really bad to me when *ashersky* are the one saying that he's basically an IC. Another possibility is that Cuzz is a scumpartner that made a crazy gambit. Ashersky is far from IC.
Towny i could believe. But not IC.
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This post seems like a crazy shot in the dark and attempt to redirect. I'm basically an IC at this point--mafia won't waste an NK on me--why would you try to lynch me now? Just to get rid of a town vote?
No. ashersky isn't basically an IC at this point. he can get the cuzz pass for now, but there are still are cases where you are scum. When cuzz made his final clarification of the description he got, i got really excited, because it also matched mine. I got wrist-slapped, the thread got locked, remember? That means that it's possible that the descrip-info was only mine all along. And ashersky just jumped at a chance to be called town.
It comes off really bad to me when *ashersky* are the one saying that he's basically an IC. Another possibility is that Cuzz is a scumpartner that made a crazy gambit. Ashersky is far from IC.
Towny i could believe. But not IC.
If you say so. I think both you and I are safe from NKs, from the mafia perspective, unless you are claiming PR? I've gotten the feel from your posts that you are in the same boat as me.
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Speaking of Cuzz, where is he? It's hard to call out players as being scummy for lurking when so many people have done it, including myself.
I don't see how ashersky's reference of "innocent child" fits the definition of "innocent child". It's LIKELY that he's town, but he isn't confirmed.
I think derphammer is derphammer.
Hard for my mind to focus, it's been crazy over here.
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I don't see how ashersky's reference of "innocent child" fits the definition of "innocent child". It's LIKELY that he's town, but he isn't confirmed.
I mean, sure, I'm not an IC in the true sense of IC (modconfirmed town). But in a more general sense, an IC ends up being a town vote during days and left alone at night, since mafia knows they can ignore you safely. So in that sense, I think I'm "basically" an IC.
I do suppose checking who drives a wagon on an IC is a useful exercise, so if I get lynched, definitely do that.
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Maybe I'm slow and lacking in mafia 101, but why would mafia leave ashersky alone? Because he's VT? I always thought the mafia wanted to leave in suspicious players. A "basically"-IC shouldn't be accruing much suspicion.
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Maybe I'm slow and lacking in mafia 101, but why would mafia leave ashersky alone? Because he's VT? I always thought the mafia wanted to leave in suspicious players. A
"basically"-IC shouldn't be accruing much suspicion.
Theoretically he (ashersky) should be Nk;ed. But who knows.
PS: Siper drunk AMA. But I might fall asleep.
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Typing that post was way too hard. Good luck for those who indulge in my AMA.
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Typing that post was way too hard. Good luck for those who indulge in my AMA.
are you scum?
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Absolutely not. O might be, but it is not clear. Shraeye is very rude, but worth keeping around, so I repeat, vote: O.
Cayvie, that is quite the typical question.
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Please do better. Draw more from drunk me.
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What's your opinion on ehunt?
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I have created the unhealthiest meta ever.
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Also my last two posts both use the "[superlative] [noun] ever" construction which I find stale and unpleasant. Sorry.
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I have created the unhealthiest meta ever.
Maybe so, maybe so.
What's your opinion on ehunt?
If it isn't clear, I fell asleep. I was not avoiding the question. I have a more or less neutral read on him as I do on most people considering the game is so huge. Slightly townish with no good reason to support.
For everybody's interest: I was (as a guy) a sexy/slutty hippie for halloween.
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I have created the unhealthiest meta ever.
I have found scum use drunk AMA's more often than town do. Maybe town does it in games I'm not in though.
YN loses points for this.
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I still want to lynch any of the lurkers, but everyone cares more about the YN/O drama.
Is YN trying to get drunk because eHunt did the same in MVI when he was town and got the wagon off of him? I remember Grujah being drunk at times in MXII when he was scum.
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Vote Count 4.6
Young Nick (4) -- yuma, ashersky, shraeye, jotheonah
O (6) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7, Axxle, Young Nick, theorel {L-3}
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
cayvie (1) -- Insomniac
ashersky (1) -- watno
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Dsell, O, sparky5856, ehunt
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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I still want to lynch any of the lurkers, but everyone cares more about the YN/O drama.
Is YN trying to get drunk because eHunt did the same in MVI when he was town and got the wagon off of him? I remember Grujah being drunk at times in MXII when he was scum.
Wait a tick. You think I got drunk just for forum mafia? That's hilarious. I post in the middle of the night on HALLOWEEN and you think that this is a planned out action? Nah, I just got back late, saw the tab open and decided to post.
I thank ehunt for creating this meta, though. Helpful? Doubtful. Hilarious? Absolutely.
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I wasn't just referring to last night.
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I wasn't just referring to last night.
None of my DAMA's have been planned. All have been the result of my returning home intoxicated and going on the computer briefly before sleeping.
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So, so many posts, I'm not even gonna bother looking for the quotes I'm referencing.
I'm lurking so hard in this game and I apologize. I'm always suspicious of lurkers myself, even when I'm one of the worst offenders. Do as I say, not as I do and all that.
I'm comfortable with O or YoungNick lynch. Cayvie also has seemed a bit weird, since her only explanation for all her weird talk about her role is that it's just a bastardish role and I wouldn't have expected Robz to concoct a role like that for this game. I also don't like that she announced that she planned to use her role on me tonight, since there are a number of scenarios in which this could cause me to not survive the night. Use your imagination.
Watno and others bring up my info claim from several lifetimes ago. Let me clarify/reiterate. I read a description that implied that someone has no abilites in this game. I don't think it could have referred to a Mafia Goon, since mafia goons can perform the NK, but now the info is out there and you are free to interpret it as you wish. To me, it implied VT.
Now, that someone was either shraeye or ashersky or cayvie, and it can't have been cayvie since she's admitted having a power. It seems ashersky and shraeye both believe it applies to them, which is interesting, since what are the odds that both of them would be VT in the first place? Maybe one of them is scum after all... Nothing more than a hunch on my part, though. FWIW, I think the description was probably ashersky's but I don't claim to be certain about that.
Ashersky claims that this makes him unlikely to draw a NK, which seems odd, since mafia doesn't like to have confirmed townies around. Hmm...
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Man, I think mafia prefer to kill PRs, not VTs. That's the "power" of the Innocent Child--they survive most of the game since we won't lynch them and they don't get NKed. Say there are 10 living town that includes a doc, cop, JK, and ic. Mafia want to kill the other PRs, and have a 1/9 chance because they can rule out the IC. That's why I won't be NKed, it's a waste of a kill. And if they do kill me, it's good for town, since I soak up the NK and PRs get another day.
Make sense yet?
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Also, vote: o to get this game moving.
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Man, I think mafia prefer to kill PRs, not VTs. That's the "power" of the Innocent Child--they survive most of the game since we won't lynch them and they don't get NKed. Say there are 10 living town that includes a doc, cop, JK, and ic. Mafia want to kill the other PRs, and have a 1/9 chance because they can rule out the IC. That's why I won't be NKed, it's a waste of a kill. And if they do kill me, it's good for town, since I soak up the NK and PRs get another day.
Make sense yet?
not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
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The heck? That's a complete backpedal to what you said before, which was a complete backpedal to something you said earlier than that. I thought you said you knew for sure that it was regarding ashersky after hinting that it could also apply to shraeye.
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The heck? That's a complete backpedal to what you said before, which was a complete backpedal to something you said earlier than that. I thought you said you knew for sure that it was regarding ashersky after hinting that it could also apply to shraeye.
Above is directed toward Cuzz, obviously.
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Man, I think mafia prefer to kill PRs, not VTs. That's the "power" of the Innocent Child--they survive most of the game since we won't lynch them and they don't get NKed. Say there are 10 living town that includes a doc, cop, JK, and ic. Mafia want to kill the other PRs, and have a 1/9 chance because they can rule out the IC. That's why I won't be NKed, it's a waste of a kill. And if they do kill me, it's good for town, since I soak up the NK and PRs get another day.
Make sense yet?
no
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The heck? That's a complete backpedal to what you said before, which was a complete backpedal to something you said earlier than that. I thought you said you knew for sure that it was regarding ashersky after hinting that it could also apply to shraeye.
oooh
linky me? im at work
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Man, I think mafia prefer to kill PRs, not VTs. That's the "power" of the Innocent Child--they survive most of the game since we won't lynch them and they don't get NKed. Say there are 10 living town that includes a doc, cop, JK, and ic. Mafia want to kill the other PRs, and have a 1/9 chance because they can rule out the IC. That's why I won't be NKed, it's a waste of a kill. And if they do kill me, it's good for town, since I soak up the NK and PRs get another day.
Make sense yet?
not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
Agreed. Confirmed townies are like the worst thing for mafia.
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The heck? That's a complete backpedal to what you said before, which was a complete backpedal to something you said earlier than that. I thought you said you knew for sure that it was regarding ashersky after hinting that it could also apply to shraeye.
oooh
linky me? im at work
I'll try to find it. I'm at work too, heh.
Unvote
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Man, I think mafia prefer to kill PRs, not VTs. That's the "power" of the Innocent Child--they survive most of the game since we won't lynch them and they don't get NKed. Say there are 10 living town that includes a doc, cop, JK, and ic. Mafia want to kill the other PRs, and have a 1/9 chance because they can rule out the IC. That's why I won't be NKed, it's a waste of a kill. And if they do kill me, it's good for town, since I soak up the NK and PRs get another day.
Make sense yet?
not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
Vote: ashersky
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not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
Vote: ashersky
Hm, really?
I think ash is wrong, but I don't think that's a scumtell.
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Ok, so as for clarification, I now know which out of ashersky and shraeye the information I received applies to.
So to reiterate: I can confirm one of them as town, and have absolutely no information on the other. The other could be scum, VT or paranoid gun owner for all I know.
But maybe I'll leave off the key detail for now, until I get more feedback. Let me know if you think I should do this yet or wait.
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not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
Vote: ashersky
Hm, really?
I think ash is wrong, but I don't think that's a scumtell.
Yes, he is wrong and I think itll help us solve this Cuzz/Shraeye/Ash business.
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Ok, so as for clarification, I now know which out of ashersky and shraeye the information I received applies to.
So to reiterate: I can confirm one of them as town, and have absolutely no information on the other. The other could be scum, VT or paranoid gun owner for all I know.
But maybe I'll leave off the key detail for now, until I get more feedback. Let me know if you think I should do this yet or wait.
As I recall, Cuzz came to believe his info only applied to ahsersky because he misunderstood a statement I had made about my description. Since then I clarified that statement, and then got the thread locked. Now I think Cuzz is realizing that he misunderstood me when I said "my description is really descriptive" or something to that point (he thought I meant that there was a lot of words and interesting bits in it, and I just meant that anyone who read is could instantly tell what I was).
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The heck? That's a complete backpedal to what you said before, which was a complete backpedal to something you said earlier than that. I thought you said you knew for sure that it was regarding ashersky after hinting that it could also apply to shraeye.
I don't think it's a complete backpedal. I'm trying to use language that does not imply more certainty than I have, which I regrettably did not do from the start. I'm also no longer trying to hide my role at all, which was the motivation for the sketchy way I first released the info. My most recent post is an accurate description of what happened. To fill in more detail, the reason I thought the description applied to ashersky was because shraeye made a comment like "my description is pretty descriptive." I interpreted that to imply "detailed and wordy" which did not apply to the description I'd read. Shraeye later countered that he actually meant "descriptive" to mean "
quite reflective of my role." Which maybe could apply. So who knows. Decide for yourself.
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Hm, really?
I think ash is wrong, but I don't think that's a scumtell.
Yes, he is wrong and I think itll help us solve this Cuzz/Shraeye/Ash business.
How?
What will it tell us about Cuzz and Shraeye if we lynch Ash and he comes up scum?
What will it tell us about them if he comes up town?
The problem here is that it's eminently possible that all three are town. This is not a group with a guaranteed # of scum in it.
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not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
Vote: ashersky
Hm, really?
I think ash is wrong, but I don't think that's a scumtell.
Yes, he is wrong and I think itll help us solve this Cuzz/Shraeye/Ash business.
Tell me in what possible game mafia prefer to leave doc/cop/JK etc. alive over a VT?
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IC != VT
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IC != VT
^^ This.
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not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
Vote: ashersky
Hm, really?
I think ash is wrong, but I don't think that's a scumtell.
Yes, he is wrong and I think itll help us solve this Cuzz/Shraeye/Ash business.
Tell me in what possible game mafia prefer to leave doc/cop/JK etc. alive over a VT?
Your point only makes sense if there's claimed PRs, and even then, without counterclaim. Mafia can't have townies running around who everyone knows is town, otherwise the pool of townies around them that they can try to frame as mafia shrinks.
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IC != VT
I thought the entire premise of IC was that they were a mod confirmed VT?
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IC != VT
I thought the entire premise of IC was that they were a mod confirmed VT?
mod confirmation IS A POWER
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not at all. Mafia absolutely shoot IC's. They can't have confirmed townies running around.
Vote: ashersky
Hm, really?
I think ash is wrong, but I don't think that's a scumtell.
Yes, he is wrong and I think itll help us solve this Cuzz/Shraeye/Ash business.
Tell me in what possible game mafia prefer to leave doc/cop/JK etc. alive over a VT?
Your point only makes sense if there's claimed PRs, and even then, without counterclaim. Mafia can't have townies running around who everyone knows is town, otherwise the pool of townies around them that they can try to frame as mafia shrinks.
You think this is a VT only game? Look at my example again. I was talking about narrowing the pool of townies to possible PRs. It's like taking investigations into account without having to investigate someone.
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IC != VT
I thought the entire premise of IC was that they were a mod confirmed VT?
Exactly. But when they are IC, no one has to guess whether they are trying to buddy-up or bus or anything like that. Their reads might suck, but they are genuine and they are pro-town. A VT has the same reads, we just can't trust them as much because we don't know they are town for sure.
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IC != VT
I thought the entire premise of IC was that they were a mod confirmed VT?
mod confirmation IS A POWER
Passive, informative power with no night actions that can only vote. How many IC cops have you played as?
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This discussion is in no way helping us lynch scum.
-
Chickenvote: O.
Oops, wrong game.
Still voting for him, though.
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mod confirmation IS A POWER
Passive, informative power with no night actions that can only vote. How many IC cops have you played as?
I don't understand the point of the question, but I've never played as an IC cop.
Look, it's not a strong power, but it's not insignificant either. It's a real thing! If you were a true IC, it would mean that we would never have to worry about whether you were lying with anything you said. Trust is really powerful in this game!
This discussion is in no way helping us lynch scum.
Disagree.
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IC is the strongest role in the game. If all the town players were IC's they'd win automatically. If all the town players were vigs, doctors, cops, or jailkeepers they might still lose. ;)
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oh, don't think i've actually said this officially yet
O is my first choice to lynch
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Axxle, why did you unvote O?
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Axxle, why did you unvote O?
It was moving a bit too fast and I wanted this Cuzz/ashraeye business clarified. I'm now inclined to think the whole mess of them are town.
Vote: O
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Vote Count 4.7
Young Nick (3) -- yuma, shraeye, jotheonah
O (7) -- Cuzz, Morgrim7, Young Nick, theorel, ashersky, Axxle {L-2}
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
ashersky (2) -- watno, Insomniac
Not voting (5) -- ftl, Dsell, O, sparky5856, ehunt
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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So I have already posted that I prefer the following over an O lynch with Young Nick on top, but again it appears that we aren't going to lynch him.
2. sparky
3. theorl
4. insomniac
5. shraeye
6. cayvie
are any of the above options viable lynch candidates at this point.
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So I have already posted that I prefer the following over an O lynch with Young Nick on top, but again it appears that we aren't going to lynch him.
2. sparky
3. theorl
4. insomniac
5. shraeye
6. cayvie
are any of the above options viable lynch candidates at this point.
Out of that list, I would not lynch theorel or myself. All other players I would be willing to lynch. Some (sparky, youngnick) more quickly than others (insomniac, cayvie)
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So I have already posted that I prefer the following over an O lynch with Young Nick on top, but again it appears that we aren't going to lynch him.
2. sparky
3. theorl
4. insomniac
5. shraeye
6. cayvie
are any of the above options viable lynch candidates at this point.
2. Sparky - will not vote for
3 . theorel - would vote for if saw a convincing case
4. Insomniac - would not vote for
5. shraeye - would vote for
6. cayvie - would vote for.
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So I have already posted that I prefer the following over an O lynch with Young Nick on top, but again it appears that we aren't going to lynch him.
2. sparky
3. theorl
4. insomniac
5. shraeye
6. cayvie
are any of the above options viable lynch candidates at this point.
Would vote for sparky, theorel, or insomniac. Would not vote for shraeye or cayvie atm. But my vote is currently on O and I'm happy with that.
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So I have already posted that I prefer the following over an O lynch with Young Nick on top, but again it appears that we aren't going to lynch him.
2. sparky
3. theorl
4. insomniac
5. shraeye
6. cayvie
are any of the above options viable lynch candidates at this point.
1. YN: No, obviously.
2. Sparky: I have a relatively null read on him at the moment. So no.
3. theorel: Yes, I could get behind that.
4. Insomniac: I would need to see a real case.
5. Shraeye: Not right now.
6. Cayvie: Yes, but I am more reluctant to compared to O or Theorel.
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Vote: O
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claim JOAT, sigh
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Unvote
O explain.
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1-shot roleblocker
1-shot jailkeeper
1-shot vig
1-shot cop
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used roleblocker, cop (FTL), not vig, jailkeeper.
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voltaire* lol, ftl still in game
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voltaire* lol, ftl still in game
You replaced voltaire...who did you cop? result? and you haven't used vig or jailkeeper yet?
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all of the o votes line up in a row....
Post by: Insomniac on November 01, 2012, 04:45:49 pm
Vote: O
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Post by: Axxle on November 01, 2012, 04:16:28 pm
Quote from: Young Nick on Today at 04:14:25 pm
Axxle, why did you unvote O?
It was moving a bit too fast and I wanted this Cuzz/ashraeye business clarified. I'm now inclined to think the whole mess of them are town.
Vote: O
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Title: Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- DAY 4
Post by: Young Nick on November 01, 2012, 03:46:04 pm
Chickenvote: O.
Oops, wrong game.
Still voting for him, though.
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Post by: ashersky on November 01, 2012, 03:05:12 pm
Also, vote: o to get this game moving.
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Post by: Young Nick on November 01, 2012, 12:42:36 am
Absolutely not. O might be, but it is not clear. Shraeye is very rude, but worth keeping around, so I repeat, vote: O.
Cayvie, that is quite the typical question.
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Post by: theorel on October 31, 2012, 07:18:04 pm
Hello all, my wife started having some contractions, might be having a baby later tonight...so I'm gonna go ahead and Vote: O, since I might not be here tomorrow when I said I would make it a vote.
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Post by: ehunt on October 31, 2012, 01:03:28 am
Quote from: O on October 31, 2012, 12:59:11 am
Reasons not to vote O:
I'm scum that decided to claim that I blocked YN because I somehow thought Cayvie was a tracker, and after that somehow thought that Cayvie chose to track me, and thinking that Cayvie was a tracker I still thought blocking YN was more important.
everybody knows for a fact that cayvie targeted young nick last night. the assertion is watcher, not tracker.... which is something you definitely understood earlier in the evening. you are pretending not to understand!
vote: O
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Post by: ehunt on October 31, 2012, 12:47:45 am
i am also highly suspicious of ashersky who defended O's actions in a manner that was logically incompatible with O's own defense of O's actions, suggesting that he already knew O was roleblocking and hadn't actually read the thread. vote: O; if he flips town then I want to go after young nick. if he flips scum then I want to go after ashersky.
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Post by: Young Nick on October 30, 2012, 11:47:28 pm
At this time, it seems like there are four main paths that people are considering:
(in no particular order)
1. O
2. Shraeye
3. Cayvie
4. Young Nick
I would say it makes the most sense for us to focus on this group of four and not get too sidetracked with others unless something warrants it.
I do agree with those who say that it is not possible for both me and O to be scum. It would be too counter-productive unless O claims to roleblock me, but that's a lot of WIFOM. Mafia would have been better off letting the real role-blocker reveal themselves.
Also, me and O can't be scum because I am not. That's the more obvious one. What I am trying to say is that when O flips Mafia, I would be cleared.
I do like Cayvie's theory regarding O's confession to blocking me.
Right now, Cayvie is super-hard to read. The main thing against her is that it seems that her role would be too bastard as town, but there is no inditement on her playing in itself. Mafia could just claim this at the start of the game and be smooth-sailing as they never have to vote for scum-buddies, I guess, but I don't see that happening.
Shraeye has had many things that seem scummy, but it does not compare to O at the moment so vote: O.
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Post by: Axxle on October 30, 2012, 10:49:34 pm
Vote: O
Policy.
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Post by: Morgrim7 on October 27, 2012, 05:59:15 am
I want a claim from O. That post of his struck me really scummy. Ya know what? Vote: O
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Post by: Cuzz on October 26, 2012, 08:57:27 pm
Quote from: O on October 26, 2012, 08:55:12 pm
I roleblocked Young Nick. He read scummy to me and I was too lazy as **** to know he was a claimed PR..
Vote: O
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Yeah, just like I thought.... a whole lot of nothing...
I can clump these votes into a few categories
1. policy votes (Axxle, Cuzz, Morgrim)
2. sheeping w/o proving explanation (ashersky, insomniac, theorel)
3. voting O for being O (ehunt)
4. faulty logic (young nick)
PPE and now I see that O has posted
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voltaire* lol, ftl still in game
You replaced voltaire...who did you cop? result? and you haven't used vig or jailkeeper yet?
Yeah. So he's obviously lying. lynch him.
-
I copped Axxle, who is town. unfortunately.
-
Ugh, unvote
-
I copped Axxle, who is town. unfortunately.
Unvote
misunderstood what the parenthesis meant.
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cool, vote: young nick
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i don't believe it
doesn't explain why you used a 1-shot roleblock, supposedly without knowing the target was a claimed PR
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i don't believe it
doesn't explain why you used a 1-shot roleblock, supposedly without knowing the target was a claimed PR
also i think giving someone both a roleblock and a jailkeep role would be weird...
-
unvote
-
Man he was at L-1 for a bit, and I missed a chance to hammer
I think now I understand why Morgrim keeps playing these games
-
eh, vote: young nick
-
I still think he could be scum. I had said this earlier, going with Cayvie's theory:
It is not out of the question in a game this big for Mafia to have to JoaT's. I honestly do like Cayvie's reasoning. I do have a hard time believing he unknowingly role-blocked a PR.
-
I still think he could be scum. I had said this earlier, going with Cayvie's theory:
It is not out of the question in a game this big for Mafia to have to JoaT's. I honestly do like Cayvie's reasoning. I do have a hard time believing he unknowingly role-blocked a PR.
Look at my contributions yesterday. It will become quite easy to believe.
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pff i just think he's a regular old mafia roleblocker
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pff i just think he's a regular old mafia roleblocker
you'd think someone would claim to be roleblocked from a previous day if that were true, no?
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I still think he could be scum. I had said this earlier, going with Cayvie's theory:
It is not out of the question in a game this big for Mafia to have to JoaT's. I honestly do like Cayvie's reasoning. I do have a hard time believing he unknowingly role-blocked a PR.
Look at my contributions yesterday. It will become quite easy to believe.
....or you could be lurking and not contributing; hiding in the masses of other lurkers.
pff i just think he's a regular old mafia roleblocker
you'd think someone would claim to be roleblocked from a previous day if that were true, no?
Not if you role-blocked a VT or one of the Lovers.
-
or if someone didn't want to out themselves as a power role
-
Young Nick and Cayvie seem very upset they missed timing for a PR lynch...
-
Young Nick and Cayvie seem very upset they missed timing for a PR lynch...
lol please
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Vote Count 4.8
Young Nick (4) -- yuma, shraeye, jotheonah, ehunt
O (4) -- Morgrim7, Young Nick, theorel, ashersky
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
ashersky (1) -- watno
Not voting (7) -- ftl, Dsell, O, sparky5856, Insomniac, Cuzz, Axxle
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
-
so soft deadline is tonight... young nick or someone else?
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O is ahead if you count my official endorsement
-
O is ahead if you count my official endorsement
I don't count it (insert appropriate emoticon of your choice)
-
i will make it a vote if it's tied near the deadline; have we set a time?
-
also, why not?
it counted when we did this day 1
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also, why not?
it counted when we did this day 1
see what I said day 2...
Post by: yuma on October 01, 2012, 05:57:06 pm
Quote from: cayvie on October 01, 2012, 05:16:34 pm
I'm kind of curious whether people count me as being on the Grujah wagon or not.
I consider you somewhere in the middle. You are unique! I understand that you have a stated reason for not voting, but do understand that this reason has not been proven to the rest of us. You aren't on the wagon, neither are you off the wagon. You are in limbo!
I don't count you on, I don't count you off. I count you as in limbo. If you vote on, you will be on, until then...
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i will make it a vote if it's tied near the deadline; have we set a time?
the one I suggested and others (but not everyone) agreed to was tonight at midnight forum time.
-
O can prove himself by vigging someone tonight.
-
O can prove himself by vigging someone tonight.
uhhh
how
-
O can prove himself by vigging someone tonight.
uhhh
how
We'd know he was a JoaT. Having a vig shot as mafia is really too powerful.
-
Are you guys serious? O claims to be JOAT having used a oneshot cop, but needs 3 tries to remember who he used it on? Is there something I'm missing or why are you all unvoting? I mean I could believe that he missed YN claimed a power role and blocked him, but forgetting whose alignment you got to know is just too much.
vote O
ashersky still looks bad, basically all he's saying is that its totally ridiculous to believe he's not obvtown.
-
Are you guys serious? O claims to be JOAT having used a oneshot cop, but needs 3 tries to remember who he used it on? Is there something I'm missing or why are you all unvoting? I mean I could believe that he missed YN claimed a power role and blocked him, but forgetting whose alignment you got to know is just too much.
vote O
ashersky still looks bad, basically all he's saying is that its totally ridiculous to believe he's not obvtown.
I think you are missing something... it confused me too.
I think what he is saying is that voltaire (whom he replaced, and whom he incorrectly called ftl) used the cop power on Axxle.
So it took him one try to tell us that part.
-
Are you guys serious? O claims to be JOAT having used a oneshot cop, but needs 3 tries to remember who he used it on? Is there something I'm missing or why are you all unvoting? I mean I could believe that he missed YN claimed a power role and blocked him, but forgetting whose alignment you got to know is just too much.
No, he replaced in remember? His first two tries was him saying "FTL used the cop shot, oh wait, I mean Voltaire" and then he said "I used it on Axxle"
-
No baby yet.
Axxle has a point...although it fails a bit as proof (since there are so many ways scum/protective roles could mess with it, including if O is in fact scum).
Nonetheless, even if O was scum, AND scum decided to use O for their kill, it would at least let the town direct the scum's kill. If we can get the town on board with directing the claimed vig-shot, I'm happy with that. The question is: who to vig?
unvote for the moment, although the proposed soft-deadline fast approaches.
@yuma: this was my reasoning for voting O.
O:
He's starting to participate now that he's being called out. This looks a lot like both Grujah and Frisk. Everything else he's done has been anti-town. But whatever, everything he did in MXII was anti-town also and he was town there, so obviously that's not useful information regarding O's alignment. Thursday midnight soft-deadline is suggested...so I'll vote here tomorrow if nothing changes.
It's not full of original analysis, but it wasn't a sheep/no reason vote as you so eloquently stated. Just because I didn't link it in the vote post doesn't mean I didn't say it. Especially since I did reference my previously mentioned intention. In fact I disagree with your general assertion of a lack of reasoning here.
-
Axxle has a point...although it fails a bit as proof (since there are so many ways scum/protective roles could mess with it, including if O is in fact scum).
We can prove that he is a vig, if it doesn't work than we can't say for sure he was lying, but we'll just have to see then.
-
Axxle has a point...although it fails a bit as proof (since there are so many ways scum/protective roles could mess with it, including if O is in fact scum).
We can prove that he is a vig, if it doesn't work than we can't say for sure he was lying, but we'll just have to see then.
I also think it'd be better to *not* direct O's shot so we can more easily verify he's a town joat.
-
Mhmm, that makes more sense this way, still i find that claim strange. O, why didnt you tell us the target and the result of your copping right in the post where you claimed?
-
I was at L-1 and didn't want to type it all out before I was possibly hammered.
-
No baby yet.
Axxle has a point...although it fails a bit as proof (since there are so many ways scum/protective roles could mess with it, including if O is in fact scum).
Nonetheless, even if O was scum, AND scum decided to use O for their kill, it would at least let the town direct the scum's kill. If we can get the town on board with directing the claimed vig-shot, I'm happy with that. The question is: who to vig?
unvote for the moment, although the proposed soft-deadline fast approaches.
@yuma: this was my reasoning for voting O.
O:
He's starting to participate now that he's being called out. This looks a lot like both Grujah and Frisk. Everything else he's done has been anti-town. But whatever, everything he did in MXII was anti-town also and he was town there, so obviously that's not useful information regarding O's alignment. Thursday midnight soft-deadline is suggested...so I'll vote here tomorrow if nothing changes.
It's not full of original analysis, but it wasn't a sheep/no reason vote as you so eloquently stated. Just because I didn't link it in the vote post doesn't mean I didn't say it. Especially since I did reference my previously mentioned intention. In fact I disagree with your general assertion of a lack of reasoning here.
Thanks for posting and for clarifying. But this furthers my point that at least for me, in this particular game, votes are what I can remember and what I can track. I went to the Print Screen, searched for votes on O and got what I posted. This game is too large to try to remember everyone's analysis.
But again, thanks for the clarification. If others feel that I misrepresented them, let me know. I would like to hear it.
-
Ok, I think I thought this through:
If we let O live for the night, and we have an extra kill tomorrow, we can be pretty sure O is not lying (I think if he was scum with an extra kill charge, that would be quite strange and he would have probably done it earlier.
If there is no extra kill, we can't be sure, except if the player who died was scum. I think we can take this risk, since we can't really lose much. As said, I dont think O is scum with an extra kill. I think the logical choice for Os target would be Young Nick, since I'm pretty sure one of the two is scum, and if O has the kill, it's not him.
I don't think we should lynch Nick over O today however, since if O turns out to be scum, I don't think Nick is too. Overall, I'm so unsure who of the two is scum, so despite their scumminess, i think it's basically 50-50 there.
So, I'm back to my earlier vote ashersky
-
In case anyone also has this same thought process here is what I found...
I remembered that voltaire (whom O replaced) was absent for a really long time before O replaced him. Like for a week. I wondered if O had forgotten about this and if he was lying had lied about Voltaire's having copped Axxle and if we could catch him in a lie.
But it turns out that Voltaire's last day--at least according to robz--on the forum at that time was October 1. Which was the first day of Day 2 I believe. So it is possible that Voltaire sent in a role PM and copped Axxle.
So in summary: I thought that perhaps we could catch O in a lie, but after checking it out. We couldn't... nothing changed, but I thought I would let others know and save them a trip if they had the same thought processes as me.
-
O sounds believable to me somehow. I think we can use his vig tonight to prove this. I don't want an O lynch.
-
a lot of people still have reservations against a youngNick lynch, which I disagree with. I'm moving to my #2 right now.
vote: sparky
I'd still be enthused about a youngNick or Axxle lynch.
-
Hows that if you believe O who claims to have a town result on Axxle?
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Hows that if you believe O who claims to have a town result on Axxle?
good enough for me... young nick isn't going anywhere... maybe we can get him tomorrow
vote: shraeye
-
Hows that if you believe O who claims to have a town result on Axxle?
Vote: shraeye
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Hows that if you believe O who claims to have a town result on Axxle?
Hah, true. I posted the O read while I was distracted and switched my vote. Axxle is off my list right now. YoungNick, sparky, with cayvie off in 3rd place is my current list.
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Vote Count 4.9
Young Nick (2) -- jotheonah, ehunt
O (3) -- Morgrim7, Young Nick, ashersky
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
ashersky (1) -- Watno
sparky5856 (1) -- shraeye
shraeye (2) -- yuma, Cuzz
Not voting (7) -- ftl, Dsell, O, sparky5856, Insomniac, Axxle, theorel
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 6th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
Sorry for the incessant vote counts, but they make it easier for me to keep track when lots of votes are appearing.
-
question:
what happens to the wine if I get lynched today? will it still get passed or will it die along with me?
also wouldn't it be weird if a doc blocked O's vig shot
-
true, I also forgot the wine. Let me see if this came with the original claim or something.
-
Relevant post from Galzria:
"I clarified this with Robz today:
The person I choose was officially presented the Wine the moment I sent him the name. Thus if I was lynched yesterday, the new owner would still have possession."
-
Shraeye has the right of it, concerning the Wine.
-
does nobody else think it's weird for a JOAT to have a roleblock and a jailkeep ability?
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does nobody else think it's weird for a JOAT to have a roleblock and a jailkeep ability?
I do. But I don't think you cared about hearing that.
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FWIW, I buy O's claim for some stupid reason.
But I really don't want to say "Hey guy who roleblocked a cop last night, just use your vig on whomever you find scummy." I don't want O vigging an obvtown because he didn't read the thread.
-
FWIW, I buy O's claim for some stupid reason.
But I really don't want to say "Hey guy who roleblocked a cop last night, just use your vig on whomever you find scummy." I don't want O vigging an obvtown because he didn't read the thread.
Just tell me who the obvtown are! ::)
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does nobody else think it's weird for a JOAT to have a roleblock and a jailkeep ability?
I do. But I don't think you cared about hearing that.
I mean, I kind of care. I'm frustrated because lots of things don't make sense, but at the end of the day there's the "O would not be in trouble if he hadn't freely admitted to his roleblocking error" argument that is hard to answer without the cayvie-conspiracy-theory. I think since you've already claimed your role that little would be harmed and a lot would be gained from you claiming your card. Either way,
vote: young nick
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with a bit more consensus i'd be happy to.
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So, uh, at midnight, O had 3 votes, Young Nick had 2, and Shraeye had 2.
Despite my preferences, I don't think that's enough of a consensus to count for our "pre-lynch deadline lynch deadline" or whatever.
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does nobody else think it's weird for a JOAT to have a roleblock and a jailkeep ability?
my role is weird this game too, can't really fault him for that
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I agree with O card-claiming. There are tons of theories flying around about what cards indicate with alignment. If he's already given his true role and alignment, then there's not much else the card could indicate. I think he should card-claim.
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I agree with O card-claiming. There are tons of theories flying around about what cards indicate with alignment. If he's already given his true role and alignment, then there's not much else the card could indicate. I think he should card-claim.
Sounds good to me.
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does nobody else think it's weird for a JOAT to have a roleblock and a jailkeep ability?
I do. But I don't think you cared about hearing that.
I mean, I kind of care. I'm frustrated because lots of things don't make sense, but at the end of the day there's the "O would not be in trouble if he hadn't freely admitted to his roleblocking error" argument that is hard to answer without the cayvie-conspiracy-theory. I think since you've already claimed your role that little would be harmed and a lot would be gained from you claiming your card. Either way,
vote: young nick
FOS: eHunt
Suggesting he claim his card, and then voting for the only one who can verify if O is telling the truth? That's very counter intuitive and counter productive.
... and your vote was already on YN...
does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
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does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
The wine thing is somewhat compelling insofar as it doesn't make sense as a scum role (and even if it did he probably wouldn't tell us about it, and certainly not about the "I blab if you're a power role" part.
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does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
The wine thing is somewhat compelling insofar as it doesn't make sense as a scum role (and even if it did he probably wouldn't tell us about it, and certainly not about the "I blab if you're a power role" part.
Hey looks like I suck at parentheses and complete sentences. (And forum CE!)
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does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
The wine thing is somewhat compelling insofar as it doesn't make sense as a scum role (and even if it did he probably wouldn't tell us about it, and certainly not about the "I blab if you're a power role" part.
It makes sense as a way to weaken scum, and if he had the role as scum he'd definitely tell us so he would never get the wine (which has worked so far and probably forever)
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does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
The wine thing is somewhat compelling insofar as it doesn't make sense as a scum role (and even if it did he probably wouldn't tell us about it, and certainly not about the "I blab if you're a power role" part.
It makes sense as a way to weaken scum, and if he had the role as scum he'd definitely tell us so he would never get the wine (which has worked so far and probably forever)
Actually, I'll have to go back and read how he said it works.
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does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
The wine thing is somewhat compelling insofar as it doesn't make sense as a scum role (and even if it did he probably wouldn't tell us about it, and certainly not about the "I blab if you're a power role" part.
It makes sense as a way to weaken scum, and if he had the role as scum he'd definitely tell us so he would never get the wine (which has worked so far and probably forever)
But the mafia can already deal with the wine. Whenever it's passed to them, they simply NK the person who passed it to them and then either pass it between each other or pass it to the person who they plan to NK the following night.
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does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
The wine thing is somewhat compelling insofar as it doesn't make sense as a scum role (and even if it did he probably wouldn't tell us about it, and certainly not about the "I blab if you're a power role" part.
It makes sense as a way to weaken scum, and if he had the role as scum he'd definitely tell us so he would never get the wine (which has worked so far and probably forever)
But the mafia can already deal with the wine. Whenever it's passed to them, they simply NK the person who passed it to them and then either pass it between each other or pass it to the person who they plan to NK the following night.
I think you're misreading what I'm saying.
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does anyone have a good reason not to lynch eHunt? Dark horse lynches can be pretty telling.
The wine thing is somewhat compelling insofar as it doesn't make sense as a scum role (and even if it did he probably wouldn't tell us about it, and certainly not about the "I blab if you're a power role" part.
It makes sense as a way to weaken scum, and if he had the role as scum he'd definitely tell us so he would never get the wine (which has worked so far and probably forever)
But the mafia can already deal with the wine. Whenever it's passed to them, they simply NK the person who passed it to them and then either pass it between each other or pass it to the person who they plan to NK the following night.
I think you're misreading what I'm saying.
How so? You said if it's a scum role, it weakens scum. I said it doesn't weaken them because they can already deal with the wine without issue. In fact, the mafia probably wants the wine in order to take it out of the game and keep the "circle of trust" from growing. So it's possible that ehunt's role is a scum role but I don't see that being very likely. If he were scum it'd probably be better to be silent about the role and just remove the wine from the game.
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How so? You said if it's a scum role, it weakens scum. I said it doesn't weaken them because they can already deal with the wine without issue. In fact, the mafia probably wants the wine in order to take it out of the game and keep the "circle of trust" from growing. So it's possible that ehunt's role is a scum role but I don't see that being very likely. If he were scum it'd probably be better to be silent about the role and just remove the wine from the game.
I misremembered. Got it. Don't want to lynch eHunt anymore, but he should realize that lynching YN right now is not the right call if we want O to cardclaim.
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Big wall of text, since I'm starting to come to grips with the game.
Okay, so we're hitting the point where so many things are going on that it's hard to choose a lynch candidate. AND we're in a situation where we essentially want to choose 2 lynch candidates. Anyways with this much going on I need to write it all down, hopefully that helps other people too.
We have:
Young Nick: claimed card cop. As noted, if O card-claims it's only reasonable to keep him around because we're gaining information about his investigative ability.
O: claimed JOAT. We want to let him live in order to prove that he has a 1-shot vig.
Axxle: he's a double-voter. Claimed to be town by O's investigation result.
Cuzz: claimed to have information about the description of shraeye/ashersky, and that the description made them vanilla town.
Ashersky/Shraeye: both have claimed that the description could apply to them. Thereby claiming a "confirmed" VT-status.
sparky: current wine possessor. While unable to be confirmed along-side eHalc, he might be confirmed by whomever he passes the wine to.
DSell: Former wine possessor. Believed to be town by eHalc based on his description (although with caveat).
ehunt: claimed Town Drunk. Has requested not to receive the wine in order to keep from taking it out of the game/revealing a town PR.
Morgrim: claims to be a VT with additional info about how many VT's are in the game.
cayvie: claims to have some role which acts upon whomever she's voting for at the end of the day.
Is that everything?
People who haven't made any claims that I remember:
myself, yuma, Insomniac, joth, ftl, watno
So, people I think we should not lynch or direct vig to tonight:
Young Nick, O or Axxle (since we're verifying O's vig claim)
both ashersky and shraeye (since at least one of them is probably VT)
Cuzz
Sparky - might as well at least see what the person who receives the wine says.
DSell/ehunt: I think they're both town.
me: I'm town.
Anyways, not really sure what to do at this point. A lot depends on how many people are currently lying, which is a complete unknown (given the closed set-up). I think probably 2-3 liars? So, if we had 6 mafia that would leave 2-3 scum in the small set? So probability-wise we should probably be looking at the small set. However, at least some people thought we would have done better to lynch a claimant in MXII to get information about truth in claims. But that might have had to do with significant set-up speculation concerning the existence of a SK? I dunno, I actually disagree that the outcome of MXII had anything to do with looking into the VT-claims, and really if I'd had my wits about me I would have realized that we REALLY should have gone after Insomniac on the last day. Grujah's analysis there was completely misleading, but I bought it at the time.
In this case though, several of our claims are for VT. That significantly weakens the value of looking at the unclaimed since we may be more like to hit a PR there?
Alright, let's assume that Morgrim's information before is accurate (I have no reason to disbelieve it). I think we could use that to determine whether we're better off going for claims or not given that we want to avoid PRs. Someone should be able to double-check this (and should, because it's not straight-forward, and I'm relying on memory for what sort of claims people have made)
Let's see: Morgrim stated that there were 3 mostly VT, and 4 complete VT. eHalc seems likely to have been complete VT. Morgrim is and Galzria was probably mostly VT. That leaves 3 completely VT and 1 mostly VT. At least one of Shraeye/Ash is in the complete VT-group according to Cuzz.
That leaves 3 at least mostly VT. Now, since not all the claims are PR-type claims, I need to recategorize people here:
people with no claimed powers at all:
DSell, sparky, (shraeye/ash)
people with claimed powers that could be considered "mostly VT". Note only one of these could even possibly be a "mostly" VT if Galzria was considered "mostly" VT.
ehunt, Cuzz(if it was one-time start of game information).
Um, okay so it's possible that all town players in the 6 non-claims are PRs (assuming Morgrim's statement is true). But this is highly speculative, given that we don't know what "mostly VT" contains, or if we should consider them PRs.
Personally I think Cuzz is the other mostly VT. I have no reason to expect DSell and sparky of being VT, so I'd say that 2 of DSell, sparky, myself, yuma, Insomniac, joth, ftl, and watno are in fact VT. Now if we assume that 2 of the non-claimants are scum (note that eliminates DSell and sparky), and assume 2 are VT, suppose we choose a player from the non-claimants (say Insomniac). The probability that Insomniac is scum is 1/3. The probability that he's VT is 1/4. The probability that he's a town PR then is 1-(1/3+1/4)=1-(7/12)=5/12.
(Note: I've made several assumptions such as 2 scum in the 6 non-claimants, obviously these probabilities are speculative, I'm just trying to get a sense for it, also these probabilities change drastically if you have additional information (which I do, but am not including in order to avoid revealing PR-info to scum, so my numbers are a bit different from the general case)).
Now, if we lynched say shraeye/ash. We would have a 0% chance of hitting a PR. Supposing we have 3 scum in the claimants group we would have a 3/11 chance of hitting scum. Although this can be refined if we suppose for example that one of Young Nick or O is scum (which I'm not sure is necessarily true...although many people have stated such belief). Anyways, if we did so we'd have a 2/9 chance of hitting scum. And if you're in the non-claimant group it goes up to 1/4.
So, I think personally that to avoid hitting PRs and to get better information, we should target one of shraeye/ash with the lynch or vig-kill. And then maybe target one of the 6 non-claimants for the other kill.
I knew I was forgetting something...the Grujah lynch.
Let's see that takes up yuma, joth, ftl, and watno of the six.
Well, I don't have much memory of what Insomniac's done this game. So, that seems fine to me (although maybe not ideal given that we could easily be dealing with only bussers when we eliminate down to the 6 non-claimants).
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tl;dr
We have 2 kills to direct: lynch and NK.
I think one of those should be one of shraeye/ashersky, with my preference going to ashersky.
I think one of those should be someone who hasn't claimed something: which is one of: myself, Insomniac, yuma, joth, ftl, and watno.
I think we shouldn't kill me.
If we do eliminate the Grujah-voters that leaves only Insomniac, which I'm fine with as a target.
If you want the full reasoning, you're gonna have to read the mammoth post.
I'm going to Vote: ashersky
and Vig-vote: Insomniac.
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I don't understand why I'm getting pressure for voting YN. I decided it was very likely that one of YN and O was lying a long time ago and have been constantly voting for one or the other based on which one I thought was lying.
Happy to unvote for now till we hear an O card claim. I imagined that the claim would implicate O deeper.
Anyway, Theorel's analysis suggests that even if one of them [O and YN] is lying, it might be best to vote elsewhere while they prove their claims.
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Insom is a bad vig target. Try again.
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there are just so many investigative or partially investigative roles being thrown out there.
1. bottle of wine
2. YN's card-reading ability
3. O's one-shot coppage
4. eevee's semi-naive alignment coppage
5. cuzzclaim
6. jothclaim (? since joth is keeping the nature of his knowledge ambiguous, which is fine, given how much else is out there)
7. possibility of cayvie = watcher (?? since cayvie didn't confirm this, but it does make a ton of sense)
it's game-breaking if all of these are true and townaligned. moreover, we know some of them to be true. There is a bottle of wine, in all probability YN can read cards (although there's no reason to suspect this is town-aligned), and eevee flipped cop.
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I think we all agree that it's very likely that one of O and YN is scum. So if O is town and has a vigshot, it must be YN who's scum. So O should vig him. If it's the other way round and O is the scum of the two, then he probably doesn't have the vig-shot and even if he does, he wouldn't use it on who we tell him to, especially if that target is scum.
So, when telling O who to kill, our premise for choosing the target must be that he is town, so YN must be scum, so that's the obvious choice.
Also if YN checks if Os cardclaim is true, what does this get us if we believe one of them is scum anyway?
I don't agree with the votes on shraeye for being suspicious of Axxle, probably he just forgot to take what O said into consideration. However, i don't agree with shraeyes vote either, since sparky has the wine. While it wouldnt be out of the game if we kill sparky, if we don't, it will still give us information about sparky tomorrow, and we shouldn't lynch him today if we know we're gonna have more info about him tomorrow.
I really don't like theorel's last post. He summarizes claims, takes random premises and "calculates" the chance that people are scum. What makes you believe there's 2-3 liars in the group of people who have claimed? Also why can't there be more scum in there, telling the trurh about their ability?
Why don't you even say who you believe the liars are?
Also, Cuzz claimed to have reason to believe he knows YN description, and it doesn't say anything about his alignment in #2656. SO I'd assume it's an active ability. Btw, there should be a third information you have, Cuzz, what is that?
@ehunt Where did joth claim some ability? Are you refering to his last post?
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I think we all agree that it's very likely that one of O and YN is scum. So if O is town and has a vigshot, it must be YN who's scum. So O should vig him. If it's the other way round and O is the scum of the two, then he probably doesn't have the vig-shot and even if he does, he wouldn't use it on who we tell him to, especially if that target is scum.
So, when telling O who to kill, our premise for choosing the target must be that he is town, so YN must be scum, so that's the obvious choice.
Also if YN checks if Os cardclaim is true, what does this get us if we believe one of them is scum anyway?
I don't agree with the votes on shraeye for being suspicious of Axxle, probably he just forgot to take what O said into consideration. However, i don't agree with shraeyes vote either, since sparky has the wine. While it wouldnt be out of the game if we kill sparky, if we don't, it will still give us information about sparky tomorrow, and we shouldn't lynch him today if we know we're gonna have more info about him tomorrow.
I really don't like theorel's last post. He summarizes claims, takes random premises and "calculates" the chance that people are scum. What makes you believe there's 2-3 liars in the group of people who have claimed? Also why can't there be more scum in there, telling the trurh about their ability?
Why don't you even say who you believe the liars are?
Also, Cuzz claimed to have reason to believe he knows YN description, and it doesn't say anything about his alignment in #2656. SO I'd assume it's an active ability. Btw, there should be a third information you have, Cuzz, what is that?
@ehunt Where did joth claim some ability? Are you refering to his last post?
no, early in the day he had some "don't ask me how i got this information" information.
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I think we all agree that it's very likely that one of O and YN is scum. So if O is town and has a vigshot, it must be YN who's scum. So O should vig him. If it's the other way round and O is the scum of the two, then he probably doesn't have the vig-shot and even if he does, he wouldn't use it on who we tell him to, especially if that target is scum.
So, when telling O who to kill, our premise for choosing the target must be that he is town, so YN must be scum, so that's the obvious choice.
Also if YN checks if Os cardclaim is true, what does this get us if we believe one of them is scum anyway?
I don't agree with the votes on shraeye for being suspicious of Axxle, probably he just forgot to take what O said into consideration. However, i don't agree with shraeyes vote either, since sparky has the wine. While it wouldnt be out of the game if we kill sparky, if we don't, it will still give us information about sparky tomorrow, and we shouldn't lynch him today if we know we're gonna have more info about him tomorrow.
Yes, my voting record lately has been not great. Unvote sparky, vote: YoungNick
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with a bit more consensus i'd be happy to.
CARD-CLAIM. How much more consensus do you need?
If we really think the best thing is for O to shoot tonight, then I think it might be time to make certain info public (to avoid a misfire). If the other people who have that info agree, please indicate that. If you disagree, don't respond to this comment at all.
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with a bit more consensus i'd be happy to.
CARD-CLAIM. How much more consensus do you need?
If we really think the best thing is for O to shoot tonight, then I think it might be time to make certain info public (to avoid a misfire). If the other people who have that info agree, please indicate that. If you disagree, don't respond to this comment at all.
My concern with the "test" plan is that we get a repeat of the DSell situation in MIV. If there's not an extra death, we won't know if we're supposed to suspect O or whom we told O to kill, or both, or neither. Based on MIV's lessons, my inclination would be to go after O if this happened, BUT...
if O is town, then mafia knows that most people are going to think like this, so if mafia has any roleblocking capacity left (and my feeling is that they've just got to, in a town this size with so many town-power roles, although perhaps Grujah's power accounted for all their roleblockage) they are going to block him. And then we will be filled with unpleasantries.
I think the better strategy is to believe the claim until a contrary claim falls down. But I do want the card name.
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(for those who didn't read MIV, DSell, who was an ordinary Mafia Goon, claimed one-shot vig when he got to L - 1. the town decided to lynch jotheonah instead of Dsell under the theory that DSell could prove he was vig by killing axxle2, who was the third highest suspect. In fact nobody died that night (mafia's kill, which wasn't axxle2, was doctored; for reasons i don't understand the sk decided to kill axxle2 but was roleblocked by mafia). the town blamed this, at least initially, on axxle2, not on DSell, and wound up losing a couple game days later without ever lynching DSell.
The point is, "if x happens tonight, then we will definitely do y tomorrow" commitments very rarely pan out and "if we force O to do this, it will definitely happen if he is town" is not true. We learn a lot if O manages to make an extra death happen but almost nothing if he doesn't. And even if it works out, the cure could well be worse than the disease - we confirm O's townitude by losing an extra town; then mafia just kills O the next night (though perhaps there is a doctor). I think we should just conditionally believe him until there is contrary evidence.
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And what exactly is that additional contrary evidence you're waiting for? Another cop investigating O?
As explained above, I hardly see any danger O hits town if we tell him to target Young Nick, because one of those two most probably is scum. There is the danger of him being blocked, but I don't think we have had anyone being except by O himself, and we lynched a Mafia Joat already. So I think thats not exactly likely. We have also lynched an SK and a pseudo-SK-thingy, so someone being bulletproof is highly unlikely too.
Even if O is town, and mafia has a roleblock, there's no way O's kill will ever get through, since Mafia would know he's telling the truth.
So that would be enough for me to lynch O tomorrow if there's no extra kill tomorrow.
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with a bit more consensus i'd be happy to.
CARD-CLAIM. How much more consensus do you need?
If we really think the best thing is for O to shoot tonight, then I think it might be time to make certain info public (to avoid a misfire). If the other people who have that info agree, please indicate that. If you disagree, don't respond to this comment at all.
I'm sorry I'm not on 24/7?
I'm still not sure why one of me/YN is scum. I found him scummy.. but I've been wrong before, and I see little compelling evidence.
My card is Harem.
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Are you sure that's your card and not O1's card?
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Yes, it's my card and not O1's card (who I can't reveal to you). made me do a double-take though.
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Idea!
Give the wine to Young Nick, Young Nick gives it to eHunt, we confirm eHunt as town.
Mafia can kill to mess it up but I think it's a decent plan though.
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Idea!
Give the wine to Young Nick, Young Nick gives it to eHunt, we confirm eHunt as town.
Mafia can kill to mess it up but I think it's a decent plan though.
I mean YN as town.
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with a bit more consensus i'd be happy to.
CARD-CLAIM. How much more consensus do you need?
If we really think the best thing is for O to shoot tonight, then I think it might be time to make certain info public (to avoid a misfire). If the other people who have that info agree, please indicate that. If you disagree, don't respond to this comment at all.
I'm sorry I'm not on 24/7?
I'm still not sure why one of me/YN is scum. I found him scummy.. but I've been wrong before, and I see little compelling evidence.
My card is Harem.
This...this is kind of confusing. This might sound crazy, but would people be willing to claim card costs?
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with a bit more consensus i'd be happy to.
CARD-CLAIM. How much more consensus do you need?
If we really think the best thing is for O to shoot tonight, then I think it might be time to make certain info public (to avoid a misfire). If the other people who have that info agree, please indicate that. If you disagree, don't respond to this comment at all.
I'm sorry I'm not on 24/7?
I'm still not sure why one of me/YN is scum. I found him scummy.. but I've been wrong before, and I see little compelling evidence.
My card is Harem.
This...this is kind of confusing. This might sound crazy, but would people be willing to claim card costs?
No.
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I think we all agree that it's very likely that one of O and YN is scum. So if O is town and has a vigshot, it must be YN who's scum. So O should vig him. If it's the other way round and O is the scum of the two, then he probably doesn't have the vig-shot and even if he does, he wouldn't use it on who we tell him to, especially if that target is scum.
So, when telling O who to kill, our premise for choosing the target must be that he is town, so YN must be scum, so that's the obvious choice.
Also if YN checks if Os cardclaim is true, what does this get us if we believe one of them is scum anyway?
what is the basis behind "one of YN and O must be scum"?
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with a bit more consensus i'd be happy to.
CARD-CLAIM. How much more consensus do you need?
If we really think the best thing is for O to shoot tonight, then I think it might be time to make certain info public (to avoid a misfire). If the other people who have that info agree, please indicate that. If you disagree, don't respond to this comment at all.
I'm sorry I'm not on 24/7?
I'm still not sure why one of me/YN is scum. I found him scummy.. but I've been wrong before, and I see little compelling evidence.
My card is Harem.
This...this is kind of confusing. This might sound crazy, but would people be willing to claim card costs?
No.
Do explain?
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Stop claiming! I figured some stuff out. Phone post- back in five minutes.
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ok, i have a theory about the cards,part of which is speculative, part of which is almost surely correct.
i emphatically oppose any more claimage of any sort, except that I would like a full card claim from cuzz . I don't think this is that risky since he already has claimed some sort of power role. Does anyone disagree?
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I've been prodded! Has it really been that long since I posted here? Oh well. Replacement is an empty threat, but getting myself modkilled seems like it wouldn't be nice for everyone else...
I have no idea who's scum between YN and O. I can't read O at all, but I'd be happy to hammer him because he's O if someone gets him to L-1 ;)
Vote: Young Nick because I looked at the last votecount and I think I trust some of the people on the YN wagon, so ima just sheep ehunt or something. I was sort of hoping to end up hammering someone, but I doubt I'll end up posting over the weekend and this day might get resolved before then with all this claiming going around
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I think Axxle's wine plan is cute, but it would take too long to get into action.
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ok, i have a theory about the cards,part of which is speculative, part of which is almost surely correct.
i emphatically oppose any more claimage of any sort, except that I would like a full card claim from cuzz . I don't think this is that risky since he already has claimed some sort of power role. Does anyone disagree?
I can't fathom how this would do any more damage than the info I've given already.
Steward.
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I think Axxle's wine plan is cute, but it would take too long to get into action.
It'll take what? Until tomorrow? Or has the wine been handed off already?
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Yeah but we wouldn't be able to confirm ehunt until D6. That's like Thanksgiving far away.
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exactly. That means keeping YN alive two more days even though tons of folks think he's scummy.
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Why are we so sure that one of O and YN is scum? Just because people have been saying it so much that you believe it's true?
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I think we all agree that it's very likely that one of O and YN is scum. So if O is town and has a vigshot, it must be YN who's scum. So O should vig him. If it's the other way round and O is the scum of the two, then he probably doesn't have the vig-shot and even if he does, he wouldn't use it on who we tell him to, especially if that target is scum.
So, when telling O who to kill, our premise for choosing the target must be that he is town, so YN must be scum, so that's the obvious choice.
Also if YN checks if Os cardclaim is true, what does this get us if we believe one of them is scum anyway?
what is the basis behind "one of YN and O must be scum"?
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1. I am emphatically against mass card claiming in any form. If I participate in it, it will be because I am the only remaining player who is against it. Until then, No!
2. I don't think one of Young Nick or O is scum. I think Young Nick is scum. But combining them doesn't make any sense to me.
3. Softdeadline has come and gone. Do we need a new one or are we just going to dally on over into a no-lynch?
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3. Softdeadline has come and gone. Do we need a new one or are we just going to dally on over into a no-lynch?
Lynching O for having the most votes at soft deadline not an option, eh?
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Not with 3 votes it isn't...
So, uh, at midnight, O had 3 votes, Young Nick had 2, and Shraeye had 2.
Despite my preferences, I don't think that's enough of a consensus to count for our "pre-lynch deadline lynch deadline" or whatever.
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You agree with me, then?
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You agree with me, then?
I agree that O should not be mass voted because he had the highest 3 votes on him at that point. However, I have a feeling that even if he did, or even if someone else did like Young Nick... that this town would not go in that direction.... Ugh... But whatever, I am back to vote: Young Nick
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I agree that O should not be mass voted because he had the highest 3 votes on him at that point. However, I have a feeling that even if he did, or even if someone else did like Young Nick... that this town would not go in that direction.... Ugh... But whatever, I am back to vote: Young Nick
You lost me in the middle there.
Are you saying that you don't think the town would vote for Young Nick if he was ahead at the soft deadline?
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I agree that O should not be mass voted because he had the highest 3 votes on him at that point. However, I have a feeling that even if he did, or even if someone else did like Young Nick... that this town would not go in that direction.... Ugh... But whatever, I am back to vote: Young Nick
You lost me in the middle there.
Are you saying that you don't think the town would vote for Young Nick if he was ahead at the soft deadline?
No I don't. because enough of town is either mafia or isn't paying enough attention to vote.
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1. I am emphatically against mass card claiming in any form. If I participate in it, it will be because I am the only remaining player who is against it. Until then, No!
2. I don't think one of Young Nick or O is scum. I think Young Nick is scum. But combining them doesn't make any sense to me.
3. Softdeadline has come and gone. Do we need a new one or are we just going to dally on over into a no-lynch?
YoungNick, this is the reason. I still believe you are scum, and I think your idea to claim costs is for an anti-town reason. I am against mass-claiming card types, card costs, card abilities, card anything.
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ok, so, I'm pretty sure O and Cuzz are town. There is a minor mystery that's unresolved.
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ok, so, I'm pretty sure O and Cuzz are town. There is a minor mystery that's unresolved.
yeah! now vote young nick?
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cuzz: are you a "mostly vanilla townie" in the precise sense that was detailed by morgrim and expanded upon by theorel? "i don't know" is a fine answer; don't speculate, only say if you are pretty sure.
@yuma: maybe i am already? i have flip flopped between O, YN, and no vote enough times to make mitt romney look like robz. anyway i am not ready for this day to be over.
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Oh, fine, I'll contribute. Vote: YoungNick.
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I don't feel that I'm ready for the day to be over either. I am wary of Young Nick but acknowledge that his power could be very useful to the town.
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vote: young nick
That's 6, so L-3. Good pressure location, I think.
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What's the case on YN again?
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You can just link to it if you don't want to rehash it.
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Shraeye has a super long case against me but I don't know where it is.
The lurk argument no longer applies. People say I don't actively scum-hunt enough, but that is my play style. Some find my DAMA's fishy. Others think that my role was specifically designed to find the serial killer.
On another note, theorel's very long post today rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed like a variant of IIoA, but instead of information, it was more math and speculation in attempt to take heat off of one of me, O, or Cayvie. It is definitely suspicious.
Meanwhile, I still am shocked that a town-O would role-block me. I guess it may be feasible, but I still am not sure if I buy it. That is a tough pill to swallow. So I guess right now I am most suspicious of O and theorel. O's wagon doesn't seem to be taking off. Vote: theorel.
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cuzz: are you a "mostly vanilla townie" in the precise sense that was detailed by morgrim and expanded upon by theorel? "i don't know" is a fine answer; don't speculate, only say if you are pretty sure.
did cuzz claim to be a "mostly vanilla townie"?
or is this just referring to what morgrim said?
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also, ehunt, do you really want him to say "no" if it's true?
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also, ehunt, do you really want him to say "no" if it's true?
Yeah, I don't see what we lose - he's already claimed that he gets access to descriptions but can't know exactly what name they're attached to. I just want to know if he thinks he's a mostly vanilla townie, based on his role pm, given that we know that's a thing in this game and theorels analysis.
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conspiracy theory time! who is ready?
So I am wondering if Robz decided to have some fun with this setup and give alignments based on previous alignments. Basically I am wondering if he only gave scum alignment to those who had not yet been scum.
Let's take a look at people that have died in this game thus far.
Eevee was scum in M3
Glooble was scum in M6
Grujah (scum in this game) had never been scum prior to this game
O had been scum multiple times (MV, MVIII, VIX)
Galz had been scum before
TheMunch had never been scum before
Frisk had been scum and was given a weird no-alignment role...
So this isn't enough to say this is definitely the case, but it is something to ponder as we see more and more flips turn over. And for now I don't think it should influence how we hunt scum, but if we get a few more positive correlations, I think that perhaps it should?
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bump - still want the answer to my new question to cuzz.
yuma - if true, your theory would acquit YN. i sorta doubt that robz would intentionally create an all-noob scumteam though, especially since robz is probably more in the "talk about the old games a lot" club than anyone except galzria. it also seems incredibly imbalanced to have this in addition to all the investigative roles.
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bump - still want the answer to my new question to cuzz.
yuma - if true, your theory would acquit YN. i sorta doubt that robz would intentionally create an all-noob scumteam though, especially since robz is probably more in the "talk about the old games a lot" club than anyone except galzria. it also seems incredibly imbalanced to have this in addition to all the investigative roles.
sure, which is why I don't think that it should affect our avenue of scum hunting right now. It was merely something I had noticed and thought worth mentioning, mostly because if it does end up being accurate, I'll look like a genius for picking it up early. If it isn't an accurate assessment I'll look like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
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bump - still want the answer to my new question to cuzz.
yuma - if true, your theory would acquit YN. i sorta doubt that robz would intentionally create an all-noob scumteam though, especially since robz is probably more in the "talk about the old games a lot" club than anyone except galzria. it also seems incredibly imbalanced to have this in addition to all the investigative roles.
sure, which is why I don't think that it should affect our avenue of scum hunting right now. It was merely something I had noticed and thought worth mentioning, mostly because if it does end up being accurate, I'll look like a genius for picking it up early. If it isn't an accurate assessment I'll look like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
At the time this game was formed, and I got my PM, I had never been mafia. So your theory is incorrect, as I'm not mafia.
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bump - still want the answer to my new question to cuzz.
yuma - if true, your theory would acquit YN. i sorta doubt that robz would intentionally create an all-noob scumteam though, especially since robz is probably more in the "talk about the old games a lot" club than anyone except galzria. it also seems incredibly imbalanced to have this in addition to all the investigative roles.
sure, which is why I don't think that it should affect our avenue of scum hunting right now. It was merely something I had noticed and thought worth mentioning, mostly because if it does end up being accurate, I'll look like a genius for picking it up early. If it isn't an accurate assessment I'll look like a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
At the time this game was formed, and I got my PM, I had never been mafia. So your theory is incorrect, as I'm not mafia.
You're confusing the yuma conspiracy theory with the converse conspiracy theory. He's saying all mafia are new, not all new people are mafia. Latter would be imba for mafia.
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Both are imbalanced because it would be too easy to find scum.
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Both are imbalanced because it would be too easy to find scum.
And for now I don't think it should influence how we hunt scum, but if we get a few more positive correlations, I think that perhaps it should?
I'll be honest. If two or three more people who have never been scum before flip scum, while no players that have been scum flip that way... I'll be looking very hard in that direction. But until then, my crazy theory shouldn't influence how we hunt scum. It was just something I noticed and decided to post since this thread is dead over the weekend.
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just realized cuzz is v/la so i acquit him for not answering my question - but, answer my question when you get back!
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@ ehunt: why?
And while ehunt is fishing for approximately all of my PM, can someone remind me if he's among the group of probtowns for any reason, or is he just acting like it?
@ watno from a while back:
Third bit of info didn't seem informative enough to be worth sharing but maybe someone else can get more out of it than I did. It basically says that someone has a role related to a previous role they had in another game that they didn't get to make much use of because they died early in that game. It also said that this person was new-ish compared to most other players. It was either Eevee, cayvie, or ehunt.
Vote: YoungNick. As I said before I think I got his description, and it does mention cards. But there was maybe a sinister tone to it that is hard to describe without direct quoting, and I think he definitely could be scum.
Cayvie, didn't you say at some point that you had strong reason to believe YoungNick is town? Did you ever elaborate on that?
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Vote: YoungNick. As I said before I think I got his description, and it does mention cards. But there was maybe a sinister tone to it that is hard to describe without direct quoting, and I think he definitely could be scum.
Please explain to me how my description could be interpreted as sinister. In my opinion, it is almost a declaration of my town-ness.
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@ ehunt: why?
And while ehunt is fishing for approximately all of my PM, can someone remind me if he's among the group of probtowns for any reason, or is he just acting like it?
@ watno from a while back:
Third bit of info didn't seem informative enough to be worth sharing but maybe someone else can get more out of it than I did. It basically says that someone has a role related to a previous role they had in another game that they didn't get to make much use of because they died early in that game. It also said that this person was new-ish compared to most other players. It was either Eevee, cayvie, or ehunt.
Vote: YoungNick. As I said before I think I got his description, and it does mention cards. But there was maybe a sinister tone to it that is hard to describe without direct quoting, and I think he definitely could be scum.
Cayvie, didn't you say at some point that you had strong reason to believe YoungNick is town? Did you ever elaborate on that?
because we have an exact count of the almost vanilla townies and when you have an exact count of things scumhunting is a lot easier. i think it's harmless. you've already claimed, i am just asking if you think you are an "almost vanilla townie" or not, but no other information. i only want your answer and no one else's. i have a mega-theory that i'm happy with but i need your answer to this question to confirm it. On the off chance that you are scum, it does me no good whatsoever for you to answer this question after I announce the megatheory. Again I believe you (and O) are town.
Where did you disclose before that you had (potentially) read YN's description? That's quite helpful.
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(found the answer to my last question..... aaannnd forgot to copy it to clipboard. but it was a couple (irl) weeks ago).
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Cayvie, didn't you say at some point that you had strong reason to believe YoungNick is town? Did you ever elaborate on that?
No. I said Young Nick was my top town read, but I didn't have any hard evidence behind that.
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And he isn't any longer.
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cuzz - i have some stuff to say, which is waiting only on this answer from you. i need to say it before the day ends because i may be NKed. if you refuse to give the answer, that sucks a lot, but please at least commit to refusing to giving the answer so that i can go ahead and say what i need to say today instead of waiting till right before the deadline. i really don't see how you can be suspicious of me asking this question since it gives away very little new information (everyone knows that you can read descriptions but don't have control over them, it's just a question of whether you think this makes you a mostly vanilla townie or not), but if you are not going to answer i'd like you to commit to not answering (i would strongly prefer that you just answer)
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cuzz - i have some stuff to say, which is waiting only on this answer from you. i need to say it before the day ends because i may be NKed. if you refuse to give the answer, that sucks a lot, but please at least commit to refusing to giving the answer so that i can go ahead and say what i need to say today instead of waiting till right before the deadline. i really don't see how you can be suspicious of me asking this question since it gives away very little new information (everyone knows that you can read descriptions but don't have control over them, it's just a question of whether you think this makes you a mostly vanilla townie or not), but if you are not going to answer i'd like you to commit to not answering (i would strongly prefer that you just answer)
Not VT. Nor mostly VT.
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cuzz - i have some stuff to say, which is waiting only on this answer from you. i need to say it before the day ends because i may be NKed. if you refuse to give the answer, that sucks a lot, but please at least commit to refusing to giving the answer so that i can go ahead and say what i need to say today instead of waiting till right before the deadline. i really don't see how you can be suspicious of me asking this question since it gives away very little new information (everyone knows that you can read descriptions but don't have control over them, it's just a question of whether you think this makes you a mostly vanilla townie or not), but if you are not going to answer i'd like you to commit to not answering (i would strongly prefer that you just answer)
Not VT. Nor mostly VT.
ok. cuzz is telling the truth, and is town.
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I'm also quite certain that O is town. Young Nick I am less sure of.
the approximate power of a role is correlated with the approximate power of the dominion card in a way that matches prices. also, i'm pretty sure scum will be attack cards.
in particular, i believe there is only one mafia goon and the card he/she is holding is Swindler.
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I am the third (and final) "mostly vanilla townie." (Assuming Morgrim is telling the truth - and I am almost sure that he is.) My card is the Great Hall. I am saying this not to encourage others to massclaim (although I'm starting to think a massclaim may just win town the game in a few days). I have already revealed the totality of my role. I am saying this to explain how I knew to build my theory. Count the cheap (costing less than 4) intrigue cards and count Morgrim's numbers and I believe it adds up.
I believe this means me, cuzz, dsell, and morgrim are a network of four confirmed town. I also think O is town because he has a fantastic role and he tied it to an expensive card, which nobody counterclaimed. It will take five nights to kill us all, and I think we can easily win the game before that, especially since O is a vig and perhaps there's a doctor out there who can help him (or WIFOM the mafia and not help him, or WIFOM with one of the five of us, or...).
My theory doesn't explain how TheMunch got a card from Cornucopia or why Frisk was neutral. (Note that "scout" = "tracker" though. A tracker with a neutral win-con... that's about as good a role as... Scout.)
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And yet this doesn't explain Glooble. Glooble was a lover. This doesn't seem innately powerful. This definitely shouldn't be a 6-cost card (Harem) which it is. And also what about O-2 claiming Harem. This means that we could have multiples of some cards. There could be more than the network you claim.
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And yet this doesn't explain Glooble. Glooble was a lover. This doesn't seem innately powerful. This definitely shouldn't be a 6-cost card (Harem) which it is. And also what about O-2 claiming Harem. This means that we could have multiples of some cards. There could be more than the network you claim.
Unless I missed something, this is the first place you've told us Glooble's card. Which means that you had a chance to read ehunt's theory before showing us this "counterevidence"
Ehunt, I can say that based on all claims thusfar, my card matches somebody elses; your theory may be somewhat relevant, but whatever the actual meaning of the cards is, it has to account for card multiples. (unless some of the card claims have not been accurate)
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And yet this doesn't explain Glooble. Glooble was a lover. This doesn't seem innately powerful. This definitely shouldn't be a 6-cost card (Harem) which it is. And also what about O-2 claiming Harem. This means that we could have multiples of some cards. There could be more than the network you claim.
Unless I missed something, this is the first place you've told us Glooble's card. Which means that you had a chance to read ehunt's theory before showing us this "counterevidence"
Ehunt, I can say that based on all claims thusfar, my card matches somebody elses; your theory may be somewhat relevant, but whatever the actual meaning of the cards is, it has to account for card multiples. (unless some of the card claims have not been accurate)
I agree/confirm Shraeye on matching/multiples.
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ok, lame.
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wait, WHAT? GLOOBLE'S ORIGINAL CARD WAS HAREM?
vote: O
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ok, sounds like my theory is crap on the one hand, but on the other hand, seems like O is obvscum, unless repetition does indeed happen (which i am not sold on).
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wait, WHAT? GLOOBLE'S ORIGINAL CARD WAS HAREM?
vote: O
Why why why? I'm trying to figure it out too but what makes you so sure he's scum?
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ok, sounds like my theory is crap on the one hand, but on the other hand, seems like O is obvscum, unless repetition does indeed happen (which i am not sold on).
Repetition happens.
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wait, WHAT? GLOOBLE'S ORIGINAL CARD WAS HAREM?
vote: O
Why why why? I'm trying to figure it out too but what makes you so sure he's scum?
because it was such a convenient lie for him. it was a card he thought was out of the game and nobody else could possibly know. yes, there could be repetition, and it's weird that YN didn't point out before that Glooble was the Harem, so i will unvote till the smoke clears, but even if there's repetition, it seems like an awfully fortunate coincidence that O's new card name is the card name that O knew in advance (and if we believe O that he never read YN's claim, then we also have to believe he thought he could get away with this lie).
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ok, sounds like my theory is crap on the one hand, but on the other hand, seems like O is obvscum, unless repetition does indeed happen (which i am not sold on).
Repetition happens.
are you certain that the repetition that you have observed isn't due to someone lying?
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I agree/confirm Shraeye on matching/multiples.
same question - are you sure it's not due to someone lying?
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I agree/confirm Shraeye on matching/multiples.
same question - are you sure it's not due to someone lying?
Pretty sure. I mean, can't be 100% on anything in this game. But there's no reasons folks lied about what I am confirming. And I'm not lying.
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woah I missed the bit about card costs relating to how powerful your role is.
I missed a lot...
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woah I missed the bit about card costs relating to how powerful your role is.
I missed a lot...
it's all on this page, and i think i may be wrong about that now (assuming YN is telling the truth, which is a big assumption). Right now a couple of mildly scummy folks are telling me that card-name repetition can happen and I am trying to decide whether to believe they are right, mistaken, or lying.
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From rules post (#2, underlining mine):
"Card: Each player will be dealt a card from Dominion. It doesn’t do anything; you just have it. You will not be told whether multiple people can have the same Card. Whether a player’s Card corresponds to anything else about him is for you to determine."
ugh.
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I believe multiple people have the same card.
what if... all VT are pawns, then they are cost 2 cards. it makes sense! and then great halls are cost 3, just a smidgen above pawns, frisk was a scout, a tracking ability, a cost-4 card. Munch was a Jester, pretty powerful, cost 5.
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1-shot roleblocker
1-shot jailkeeper
1-shot vig
1-shot cop
I don't see how this relates at all to a harem.
all the cards so far have had at least some tie in to a role. Scout, frisk scouts for information by tracking. Great Hall, it's a very vanilla card, it's a victory card with a little extra something. pawn, very vanilla.
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when was it asserted that glooble's card was harem?
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Glooble's card wasn't harem.
I cannot say what O1 or Glooble's cards were.
Young Nick is lying because he's about to be lynched.
Vote: Young Nick
have no problem with continuing the wagon on someone whose a confirmed liar to me.
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hm...
well that's problematic
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Glooble's card wasn't harem.
I cannot say what O1 or Glooble's cards were.
Young Nick is lying because he's about to be lynched.
Vote: Young Nick
have no problem with continuing the wagon on someone whose a confirmed liar to me.
well thanks for revealing some information about your old self's lover.
also would scum put themselves in a situation where X is a confirmed liar and he MUST be scum?
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yeah, okay, I now support a Young Nick lynch over an O one.
with that statement of O's, pretty sure there's no way they can both be town. and I don't think scum O would put himself in a 1 for 1 trade situation at this time.
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ok, i've said what i needed to say, morgrim and i are confirmed town, cuzz/dsell are highly likely town, i'm ready for this day to be over.
vote: young nick, obviously go after O if YN flips town.
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(I believe that is a hammer but it has been a long time.
jo, me, shraeye, cuzz, O, ftl, morgrim, ashersky, yuma, not in that order, seem to be voting for him)
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Can we get a vote count?
If I'm counting correctly that leaves him at L-1.
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ok, i've said what i needed to say, morgrim and i are confirmed town, cuzz/dsell are highly likely town, i'm ready for this day to be over.
vote: young nick, obviously go after O if YN flips town.
also i think the day after tomorrow would be a good time for vanilla townie only massclaim given morgrim's count of the vanilla townies. too early and you identify the PRs, too late and it doesn't matter.
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(i mean game day after tomorrow, not literal day after tomorrow, obvi.) i dont have any dark horse scumreads. doctors should protect O tonight unless YN flips town in which case obviously they should not.
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jo, shraeye, ftl, yuma, morgrim, ashersky, cuzz, o, eHunt.
Wait. That's a hammer.
I'll do a post-hammer ;D
VOTE: Young Nick
yeah I'm curious as to how Morgrim got that information again, but I'll save the questions for game-day tomorrow.
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jo, shraeye, ftl, yuma, morgrim, ashersky, cuzz, o, eHunt.
Wait. That's a hammer.
I'll do a post-hammer ;D
VOTE: Young Nick
yeah I'm curious as to how Morgrim got that information again, but I'll save the questions for game-day tomorrow.
Yeah, Sparky makes 10 votes. Now let's see what comes.
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CAYVIE NEEDS TO VOTE FOR SOMEONE!
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nevermind she's voting for cuzz i think
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I'll be SMH if doctors (if there are any) protect the person O vigs.
O is still vig-ing someone to prove his role right?
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I'll be SMH if doctors (if there are any) protect the person O vigs.
O is still vig-ing someone to prove his role right?
as long as YN flips scum I believe O's role regardless; if he wants to vig, that's up to him.
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good point. no point in sacrificing someone to prove his role.
and yes cayvie is voting cuzz.
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Can we try to direct O's vig? I would perhaps suggest one of ftl, Theorel, Watno, or Frisk, as they've been some I don't have a good read at allllll on. And I'm not aware of any of them claiming? If I'm wrong, someone correct me quick. O should also check the history of the person he wants to vig to make sure they haven't claimed.
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Glad to see you guys finally came to a consensus, sure took a roundabout way to get there though...
Robz said he would be out of town for a while so it may be a while before we get a flip
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Can we try to direct O's vig? I would perhaps suggest one of ftl, Theorel, Watno, or Frisk, as they've been some I don't have a good read at allllll on. And I'm not aware of any of them claiming? If I'm wrong, someone correct me quick. O should also check the history of the person he wants to vig to make sure they haven't claimed.
frisk is dead
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Yeah let's vig Frisk. We REALLY hate Scout.
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Can we try to direct O's vig? I would perhaps suggest one of ftl, Theorel, Watno, or Frisk, as they've been some I don't have a good read at allllll on. And I'm not aware of any of them claiming? If I'm wrong, someone correct me quick. O should also check the history of the person he wants to vig to make sure they haven't claimed.
we lynched frisk yesterday. assuming yn flips scum, ftl has been on both the wagons that lynched scum and so i object to vigging ftl. watno voted for grujah, and i am pretty sure theorel is town although i usually think that and have no claim-related stuff to back it up (certainly i would not have realized the stuff i did about "mostly vanilla townies" without theorel's post). my top suspect not involved in the claim-shenanigans was insomniac, but jo suggests that this is a bad idea.
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Can we try to direct O's vig? I would perhaps suggest one of ftl, Theorel, Watno, or Frisk, as they've been some I don't have a good read at allllll on. And I'm not aware of any of them claiming? If I'm wrong, someone correct me quick. O should also check the history of the person he wants to vig to make sure they haven't claimed.
frisk is dead
Oh yeah. I swear I'm paying better attention than that, I just went to the first page, mistakenly thinking that it was an up-to-date list of who's alive.
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Let's go with what Jo says about Insom, even though he's not confirmed. Scum doesn't really have a reason to say something like that, I think, it ties them together too much later on.
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Let's go with what Jo says about Insom, even though he's not confirmed. Scum doesn't really have a reason to say something like that, I think, it ties them together too much later on.
agreed.
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wait did i get hammered jeez.
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Guys I could have sworn I told y'all about Glooble earlier. Still lynching me before I had a chance to talk was uncool.
I am town.
Glooble's card indeed was given to me as Harem. I asked for it N1, as I definitely explained.
I believe cayvie's theory about O fessing up is spot-on. There is probably one scum lurking I have decided. O I am on the fence about. I still think one "obvtown" is scum, but I can't tell you which.
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Guys I could have sworn I told y'all about Glooble earlier. Still lynching me before I had a chance to talk was uncool.
I am town.
Glooble's card indeed was given to me as Harem. I asked for it N1, as I definitely explained.
I believe cayvie's theory about O fessing up is spot-on. There is probably one scum lurking I have decided. O I am on the fence about. I still think one "obvtown" is scum, but I can't tell you which.
If you were town you would not be "on the fence" about O, you would know for a fact that he is lying!
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And, Vote: Young Nick because why not. O scum-slipped so hard, geez.
ehunt your theory is feasible, but disclosing it today means scum get to talk it over tonight and decide how to get around it. My card costs $4 by the way, for ehunt's theory.
Don't recklessly go after O tomorrow. Town needs to talk more and drive out the lurkers from hiding, because we have been pretty good so far at scumhunting.
Also, lastly, don't let cayvie be obvitown. Her role is a cray one, but she could just be getting a free pass on all these lynches.
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Guys I could have sworn I told y'all about Glooble earlier. Still lynching me before I had a chance to talk was uncool.
I am town.
Glooble's card indeed was given to me as Harem. I asked for it N1, as I definitely explained.
I believe cayvie's theory about O fessing up is spot-on. There is probably one scum lurking I have decided. O I am on the fence about. I still think one "obvtown" is scum, but I can't tell you which.
If you were town you would not be "on the fence" about O, you would know for a fact that he is lying!
I mean I think he is lying but I am not convinced he is scum. He also is in no position to talk about Glooble's card if his information is tied to O-1, so I am going to disregard that information and claim he is pulling from straight out of his ass.
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Just annoying that I go away for maybe a few hours after there has been minimal talk this entire weekend and bam there is 1.5 pages of new material and I have been lynched.
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Anyway, for now here is a Twilight AMA. Ask your soon-to-be-confirmed town anything you want. Even better than my DAMA's.
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When did you "tell us" about Glooble?
The first night I investigated Glooble. He obviously can not verify this. I would say maybe O could because they were lovers, but this is O-2, so I would imagine using O-1's information is off-limits. I will say that it is not the card that was found.
Nothing about Harem. Maybe I missed something?
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JK I have to study for a midterm tomorrow.
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JK I have to study for a midterm tomorrow.
good luck on your midterm. if it is complex analysis the answer to everything is 2 pi i.
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When did you "tell us" about Glooble?
The first night I investigated Glooble. He obviously can not verify this. I would say maybe O could because they were lovers, but this is O-2, so I would imagine using O-1's information is off-limits. I will say that it is not the card that was found.
Nothing about Harem. Maybe I missed something?
I told you guys I investigated him N1 when I claimed card-cop. I realize now and apologize for having never previously told you about his card being Harem until a few hours ago. But his card is Harem. I guarantee you that.
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if it's true, then I'll have to formulate a new theory...
-
actually, I'm inclined to believe this. we will get O2 tomorrow if YN is town.
if YN is scum, well then I overthink things too much.
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actually, I'm inclined to believe this. we will get O2 tomorrow if YN is town.
if YN is scum, well then I overthink things too much.
O2 is obvscum if yn flips town. The fact that he doesn't instantly see this makes me think he's trolling. (plus he and pps trolled at endgame m7)
-
So since my replacing out, I've become privy to the game setup. Which means, in Robz's absence, I am comfortable with this (pending an updated votecount and, if there has indeed been a lynch, the flip):
THREAD LOCKED
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Vote Count 4.10
Young Nick (9) -- jotheonah, shraeye, ftl, yuma, Morgrim7, ashersky, Cuzz, O, ehunt
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
ashersky (2) -- Watno, theorel
theorel (1) -- Young Nick
Not voting (4) -- Dsell, sparky5856, Insomniac, Axxle
With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.
Flavor to be prepared by Robz when he returns. In the meantime, here's the flip.
Young Nick, the Town-Aligned Card Cop, has been lynched.
Send in your night actions by 9:00 p.m. (EST) on Tuesday, November 6 (or such other deadline as Robz may set).
NIGHT 4 START
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A big thank-you to Voltgloss for handling this while I was away. The flip was provided accurately.
Night actions should indeed be sent to me by 9:00 PM EDT on Tuesday, November 6.
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[flavor]You were all smiles as you emerged from your bedrooms. A mislynch! A glorious mislynch! All was right with the world. This was the life you knew, and loved. This was comfort, familiarity, sanity.
And another body greeted you in the Courtyard.
"And now to do what we do best--misdiagnose why an innocent was lynched, compounding our mistake with increasingly more costly errors," said Insomniac.
"Perhaps we can squander the town's advantage in a matter of days!" rejoiced Cuzz.[/flavor]
ehunt, the Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
A Dominion card was also found: a Great Hall. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss)
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire)
11. Axxle
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis)
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
ANNOUNCEMENT: Young Nick's Description should have been provided when he was lynched--that was my fault for not being around. It is included here in the status post, as it should be.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 5 START
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Vote Count 5.1
Not voting (15) -- ftl, sparky5856, Insomniac, Dsell, Jotheonah, O, Axxle, Cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, yuma, Theorel, Morgrim7, Watno, ashersky
Deadline is Friday, November 16, at 6:00 PM (EDT).
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VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
There, lynched. #joke
Man the mafia sure do love to go for the big talkers don't they...
(I am in favor though of not going straight to the lynch as YN said. Talking is a plus. As a whole.)
Something I realized, will we have any idea at all when (and if) we will be in lylo?
-
Vote: O
I see no way he can be town, as dead conf. town says he was lying about his card.
-
You guys ready for some claiming action? Cause me and my fellow Masons are about to drop a pinata full of confirmed townies for your scum-hunting edification and bust this game wide open.
I sort of feel like if we all confirm each other, you guys will have to believe us, but I'm open for input in how to claim in a way that will assure you all that we are all town.
-
Vote: O
-
You guys ready for some claiming action? Cause me and my fellow Masons are about to drop a pinata full of confirmed townies for your scum-hunting edification and bust this game wide open.
I sort of feel like if we all confirm each other, you guys will have to believe us, but I'm open for input in how to claim in a way that will assure you all that we are all town.
I think you all can just claim.
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You guys ready for some claiming action? Cause me and my fellow Masons are about to drop a pinata full of confirmed townies for your scum-hunting edification and bust this game wide open.
I sort of feel like if we all confirm each other, you guys will have to believe us, but I'm open for input in how to claim in a way that will assure you all that we are all town.
Wow. Uhhh is it necessary today? Are you just gonna tell everyone to vote O? Because isn't he like virtually certain scum right now?
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We talked it over in the QT and I thought we had decided to claim in case there was, for instance, a town vig who could benefit from the knowledge. Worst case scenario, we absorb some night kills that would have hit more helpful power roles. But I'll stop now, and let others make the decision. If no one else comes forward I'll wait until tomorrow, after O's dead.
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Ok lemme get the case on O straight. Young Nick confirmed that Glooble's card was Harem, yet O2 claims that his card is harem, despite claiming a role completely unlike Lover.
Of course the presumption is that scumO2 knew that Harem was no longer in the game and thus was a safe claim...until Young Nick revealed his night 1 investigation.
If I'm understanding everything correctly, that sounds like strong reasoning to me.
Vote: O
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Others have claimed that card duplicates are possible, haven't they?
-
Vote Count 5.2
O (5) -- sparky5856, jotheonah, Axxle, Dsell {L-3}
Not voting (11) -- ftl, Insomniac, O, Cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, yuma, Theorel, Morgrim7, Watno, ashersky
With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is Friday, November 16, at 6:00 PM (EDT).
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Let's not forget that O called YN a liar and said,
Glooble's card wasn't harem.
I cannot say what O1 or Glooble's cards were.
Young Nick is lying because he's about to be lynched.
Vote: Young Nick
have no problem with continuing the wagon on someone whose a confirmed liar to me.
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Let's not forget that O called YN a liar and said,
Glooble's card wasn't harem.
I cannot say what O1 or Glooble's cards were.
Young Nick is lying because he's about to be lynched.
Vote: Young Nick
have no problem with continuing the wagon on someone whose a confirmed liar to me.
Vote: O
I really don't see any point in dragging this out. Especially if we have a bunch of confirmed towns on the way.
-
courtesy dictates we let him speak before we hammer him if nothing else.
-
Yep, see no reason not to continue to vote: cuzz (ie use my night action on him) at the moment.
-
Whoa, things have progressed super fast. So I look pretty terrible for being the loudest yeller on the YN wagon, but I agree that this confirms that O is lying scum.
We should also spend some time talking, talk is very good. I don't want this to be the shortest day ever. The mason business is very interesting. I don't know when it is best to claim, but obviously if you don't claim until tomorrow, a vig should save their shot until they have more info to direct it accurately.
Also, sparky's first post set my scum-radar off super loudly
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
VOTE: O
There, lynched. #joke
Man the mafia sure do love to go for the big talkers don't they...
(I am in favor though of not going straight to the lynch as YN said. Talking is a plus. As a whole.)
Something I realized, will we have any idea at all when (and if) we will be in lylo?
-
So, I was on the fence on YN (not too confident that he was scum but more so than others) but joined in on the lynch after the hammer (everyone take note of that, as it's not on the official vote count due to it occurring after the hammer). Once he straight-up stated that Glooble's card was Harem though, I was almost convinced at that point that YN was town, and there was nothing we could do at that point.
I thought about a theory: cost-6 cards are those with mod-confirmed information that some other player(s) is/are town. This is really powerful in swaying what you say and what you do, so imo it ranks above a 5-cost card in power. So Glooble's card was Harem, and he was a lover, it makes thematic sense and it also falls in line with my theory.
Of course it's kind of a ridiculous theory if you only test it out on one card. I had additional information to back me up. I have a cost-6 card and I have mod-confirmed information that some other players are town. This makes my theory stronger, although if there are only 2 cost-6 cards in Intrigue then it's not a very helpful theory to all, but it still holds imo, and that's pretty strong. It did give me additional information about why I was given the card I was given, why I was given the role I was given (well, technically Volt's card and role but I replaced into him). And getting additional information about how the game was structured HAS to be helpful. For instance, it further supports the theory that card costs relate to power.
In a nutshell:
I am one of the masons that jotheonah references. My card is Nobles.
The person who I passed the wine to can also confirm my role; my description makes it pretty clear that I'm a mason I think. Apparently Volt likes to talk a lot so he needed to talk to others during the night somehow; that's what the description infers. I've been hinting at this a couple of times along the road so that when I finally did claim, as I am now, it would be more believable:
#1240:
NOTE: Voltgloss has been replaced by sparky5856. The introductory information post will be updated to reflect this. Please remember that some roles and alignments may or may not have been modeled on specific player's characteristics, metas, or forum histories and as such, keep in mind that sparky5856 was originally Voltgloss.
Hello everyone! I love talking, so I decided to join this lovely 50-page debacle we got going on here. And I have read very little of it thus far. Looks like I got an assignment tonight; read through 50 pages of arguing to see who has screwed up the most so far ;D
#2139:
i'm mental
So I can say with about 85% certainty that Axxle is town, pegging me and Cuzz for questionable town play. And I believe both of us do. This is juicy information to tell us that DEFINITELY Player X out of 2 is of a certain alignment and not telling us which one. VOTE: Cuzz in order to prod for additional info. Plus maybe my shraeye argument is jumping the gun a bit; I make too many assumptions. I just want to find scum alright?
i may or may not be sleep-deprived. it's 4am right now, I spend every night talking...
I've been debating about whether or not to claim today, and so have my fellow masons. One of the things that was reasoned was that the remaining town PR's are less likely to be NK'ed now, since they'll have multiple conf-towns to plow through instead, and we can't track or vig or protect or whatever. So, us coming out protects them. Of course, this means that I'll probably be the one to be dead tonight. Sucks, but it's for a good cause.
I do think everyone should get a chance to speak before a quickhammer, even though another thing about my cost-6 cards theory is that O is a stinking liar. I want everyone to weigh in on what has happened so far today.
So, VOTE: O, it IS Election Day so vote and vote proudly! (but wait for everyone to get here first obviously.)
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Unvote
We need to let someone pass the wine before we end the day, right?
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True fact, Cuzz.
Also, I am the best at suspecting people who then prove that they're town. Thanks sparky, for saving me the embarrassment of driving yet another mislynch, I was already going through some of your old posts to build a case. Ugh, I am the worst at this game.
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Unvote
We need to let someone pass the wine before we end the day, right?
Yes, true.
Unvote
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True fact, Cuzz.
Also, I am the best at suspecting people who then prove that they're town. Thanks sparky, for saving me the embarrassment of driving yet another mislynch, I was already going through some of your old posts to build a case. Ugh, I am the worst at this game.
huh.
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I knew there was a specific reason why I wanted to get everyone in here before a quickhammer.
UNVOTE for now. Until they confirm no one unnecessarily accelerate the wagon.
And one more thing I forgot: I knew from the start that there could be card duplicates because my masons have the same card.
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I think the masons claim today as well
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Also I recognize that some of my play this game has been rather sloppy, partially due to me having scum-roles in my first two games, so I was used to being scum. And I knew that if I ever got close to lynch, I could just claim and then I would probably be saved; doing it now though I think was much better because it's more believable this way.
So yeah I'm a bad town player >_< I think I'm 0 for 3 on being on the correct wagon so far. If I do die tonight I'm still suspicious of ftl, Watno, and now theorel, because they all have avoided the claim spotlight so far. yuma has too but he's been acting very townish in other ways so I trust him more. Watno I've just had an off-feeling about the whole game. top-scum is ftl imo.
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I think the masons claim today as well
Why?
-
courtesy dictates we let him speak before we hammer him if nothing else.
Ironic, given he's the derphammer.
Vote: O
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is there claiming going on? I missed it but sparky seems to think I'm scummy for not claiming anything yet, someone let me know if I'm supposed to claim
I came in here intending to vote for O but I guess we're waiting for claims or something
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is there claiming going on? I missed it but sparky seems to think I'm scummy for not claiming anything yet, someone let me know if I'm supposed to claim
I came in here intending to vote for O but I guess we're waiting for claims or something
You are not.
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I am also one of the Masons jo/sparky are talking about, the 3 of us are the original 3, we are confirmed town to each other. There is more to come.
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I am also one of the Masons jo/sparky are talking about, the 3 of us are the original 3, we are confirmed town to each other. There is more to come.
Is it important for everyone to claim if it's not gonna change the outcome of lynching O?
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If everyone claims, that outs the power roles. I don't think it's the right play for EVERYONE to fullclaim at this point. Also to clarify my last point about claims, some of the claims have been indirectly forced by others, for example Cuzz mentioning one of shraeye and ashersky was VT. The ones that I've noticed that haven't been involved in any sorts of claiming so far, including indirectly, are the four that I mentioned. It's just a fact that can't be changed.
But for everyone to claim now means outing the PR's which contradicts part of my original argument for MY claim.
-
Further evidence in our favor is the unexplained redirecting that's been going around.
Insom is a bad vig target. Try again.
-
I mean honestly, what the fuck were the odds. Blegh, I thought I was being so clever too....
still quite impressed I got YN lynched before me.
vote:O
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Revote: O
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Who's got the wine? Get your shit together.
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Who's got the wine? Get your shit together.
Why do I keep forgetting this? Unvote till that is confirmed.
-
So O is at six votes, by my unofficial count. That L-2 right? Lets figure out wine and move on.
-
nobody feels bad for my horrid luck :'(
-
nobody feels bad for my horrid luck :'(
what is your horrid luck
-
that somehow YN investigated glooble.
-
hasn't o been lynched?
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hasn't o been lynched?
No, people are waiting for a wine announcement. Unless scum has it...
-
Ok, so here is what you all need to know: sparky, jotheonah, and Insom are all conf. town. We all confirm it with each other, two other people can confirm it if need be. Those two are NOT conf. town themselves, so there's no reason to out them now.
We are the cult Eevee was talking about almost certainly, only we're not a cult, we're a neighborhood. It would help us to know whether Morgrim7 has flavor in his PM that says a certain thing will happen if we recruit him, and whether that thing would be good or bad for us.
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Vote Count 5.3
O (5) -- jotheonah, Axxle, ashersky, O {L-3}
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not voting (10) -- ftl, Insomniac, shraeye, yuma, Theorel, Morgrim7, Watno, Cuzz, Dsell, sparky5856
With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is Friday, November 16, at 6:00 PM (EDT).
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@Robz: Cayvie's voting for Cuzz, you've got it backwards in the vote count.
yay, we get to lynch scum-O this game. I've really got nothing to add to this...I think it's silly to suspect everyone that's been uninvolved in any measure of claiming. It's just encouraging the mass-claim that everyone generally agreed was a bad idea in MXII.
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@Robz: Cayvie's voting for Cuzz, you've got it backwards in the vote count.
yay, we get to lynch scum-O this game. I've really got nothing to add to this...I think it's silly to suspect everyone that's been uninvolved in any measure of claiming. It's just encouraging the mass-claim that everyone generally agreed was a bad idea in MXII.
Nonsense it was a great idea! I won that game, oh wait I was scum...hmmm.
We shouldn't lynch O until the winebearer gets here and I suspect it might be a while.
-
theorel's scumread just went up a bit more in my eyes.
-
Ok, so here is what you all need to know: sparky, jotheonah, and Insom are all conf. town. We all confirm it with each other, two other people can confirm it if need be. Those two are NOT conf. town themselves, so there's no reason to out them now.
On this point, while the other two are not conf town they have earned a lot of towniness when we didn't all get torn apart by scum.
-
I can give support for this mason claim. I believe I have read sparky's description, and it strongly hints at masonry.
-
So by systematic elimination on who's been here so far it can be deduced now who I gave the wine to. Unfortunately he's having unfortunate IRL issues at the moment so I don't know when he'll pop in.
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So by systematic elimination on who's been here so far it can be deduced now who I gave the wine to. Unfortunately he's having unfortunate IRL issues at the moment so I don't know when he'll pop in.
OOC does his description appear town?
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So by systematic elimination on who's been here so far it can be deduced now who I gave the wine to. Unfortunately he's having unfortunate IRL issues at the moment so I don't know when he'll pop in.
OOC does his description appear town?
What's OOC?
-
So by systematic elimination on who's been here so far it can be deduced now who I gave the wine to. Unfortunately he's having unfortunate IRL issues at the moment so I don't know when he'll pop in.
OOC does his description appear town?
What's OOC?
Out of curiousity.
-
That makes so much more sense than "out of character"
-
I don't know what to make of it to be honest. It's not possible to infer alignment from it. It mainly talks about him being ignored a lot even when he's actively participating. I don't know if this is necessarily VT.
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@Robz: Cayvie's voting for Cuzz, you've got it backwards in the vote count.
yay, we get to lynch scum-O this game. I've really got nothing to add to this...I think it's silly to suspect everyone that's been uninvolved in any measure of claiming. It's just encouraging the mass-claim that everyone generally agreed was a bad idea in MXII.
Fixed that, thanks.
-
We shouldn't lynch O until the winebearer gets here and I suspect it might be a while.
Unvote
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We shouldn't lynch O until the winebearer gets here and I suspect it might be a while.
Yes. I agree. But Axxle just unvoted its the perfect time for me to vote. Vote: O
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We shouldn't lynch O until the winebearer gets here and I suspect it might be a while.
Yes. I agree. But Axxle just unvoted its the perfect time for me to vote. Vote: O
While your here do you know anything about the Nobles, anything in your PM about doing something?
-
We shouldn't lynch O until the winebearer gets here and I suspect it might be a while.
Yes. I agree. But Axxle just unvoted its the perfect time for me to vote. Vote: O
While your here do you know anything about the Nobles, anything in your PM about doing something?
Nada
-
Thanks for not killing me guys... that would have been a not so fun way to die. As I read through the e-mails I get for this thread a few hours ago I got a little panicky that I was going to end up dead.
But I have now passed the wine to someone that I fell comfortable doing so. and will vote: O. I'll let others decide if we want to continue the conversation today or not. I have to go catch up in some other games.
-
Vote: O
Welcome back!
-
I don't know if everyone wants to discuss anymore today. I think people just want to see O dead. ;D
VOTE: O, now that the wine is safe, it's now safe to do this.
-
Vote: O
-
And I guess I should say that the wine allowed me to semi confirm what others have said about the mason group and does fit in with sparky replacing Voltgloss. It seemed Robz wanted to reunite some veteran players, especially those from M2 in Volt, jot and insomniac (who if memory serves were the three townie alive at the end when Galz and Robz schooled them for the win.)
-
Vote: O
-
THREAD LOCKED.
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Vote Count 5.4
O (8) -- jotheonah, ashersky, O, Morgrim7, yuma, Dsell, sparky5856, shraeye
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Insomniac, Theorel, Watno, Cuzz, Axxle
[flavor]You wasted little time deciding on O/Voltaire.
"Anything to say in your defense?" asked Axxle.
"I'm obvscum," replied O.
And that he was.[/flavor]
O (Voltaire), the Scum-Aligned Mafia Roleblocker, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Send me your night actions by Friday, November 9th, at 8:00 PM EDT.
NIGHT 5 START
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[flavor]Another day dawns in the Courtyard--another day to eliminate the scum.
"Let's do this," said Axxle.
"Yeah, let's," said Theorel.
"Robz is getting pretty lazy with his flavor," added ashersky.
"He sure is," Yuma agreed.[/flavor]
Jotheonah, the Town-aligned Mason, has been killed.
A Dominion card was also found: a Nobles. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss)
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah, Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 5
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire), Scum-aligned Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 5
11. Axxle
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis)
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
O (Voltaire)'s Description: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Nobles, belonging to O (Voltaire) or jotheonah.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 6 START
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Vote Count 6.1
Not Voting (13) -- ftl, sparky5856, insomniac, Dsell, Axxle, Cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, yuma, Theorel, Morgrim7, Watno, ashersky
Deadline is Monday, November 19, at 6:00 PM EDT.
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
Why did you not pass the wine to Voltaire?
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
Why did you not pass the wine to Voltaire?
Sorry, getting things mixed up. O replaced voltaire of course.
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
Why did you not pass the wine to Voltaire?
why would I do that?
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
Why did you not pass the wine to Voltaire?
why would I do that?
Because if you can get a scum description out of it then it's pretty useful. Although others decided earlier we should only use it to verify town? I don't know.
Who else still alive that haven't been mafia?
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I have never been mafia, if you discount BM6
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
Why did you not pass the wine to Voltaire?
why would I do that?
Because if you can get a scum description out of it then it's pretty useful. Although others decided earlier we should only use it to verify town? I don't know.
Who else still alive that haven't been mafia?
I guess I am confused.... I passed it to Watno because I wanted to get a description out of him because he could be scum and I think I got something that might signify that. But passing it to voltaire/O would have made the wine disappear out of the game right?
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
Why did you not pass the wine to Voltaire?
why would I do that?
Because if you can get a scum description out of it then it's pretty useful. Although others decided earlier we should only use it to verify town? I don't know.
Who else still alive that haven't been mafia?
cayvie, morgrim, cuzz, ashersky, shraeye are some I think... but ehunt had never been mafia and he was town... so it certainly isn't that players who had never been mafia are certainly mafia this game...
and I am only looking at M (Roman Numeral Games) since those are the only ones I have kept track of in my rankings spreadsheet.
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Note that my theory of new players is still standing, in that Voltaire had never before been mafia...
Passed the wine to Watno. I think it has some worth in sharing... obviously not quoting... but want to make sure that you guys think it is appropriate to share first.
Why did you not pass the wine to Voltaire?
why would I do that?
Because if you can get a scum description out of it then it's pretty useful. Although others decided earlier we should only use it to verify town? I don't know.
Who else still alive that haven't been mafia?
cayvie, morgrim, cuzz, ashersky, shraeye are some I think... but ehunt had never been mafia and he was town... so it certainly isn't that players who had never been mafia are certainly mafia this game...
and I am only looking at M (Roman Numeral Games) since those are the only ones I have kept track of in my rankings spreadsheet.
At the time this game started, I had only played one game, MX. We lynched Rbz D1. I was town PR.
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and again... I am not suggesting that we use this basis to scum hunt now... perhaps in the future if this trend continues. for now it is just an interesting observation. Our efforts would be much better spent focusing on interactions between confirmed scum in previous days.
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So I think an understanding of who voted O Day 4 will be far more beneficial than seeing who voted him Day 5. I will say up front that I was very much against voting him throughout Day 4.
Cuzz, Morgrim and Axxle opened the voting on O
followed by two dead townies (ehunt, Young Nick)
theorel voted
ashersky voted O
Insomniac voted O
I think that is it, did I miss anyone?
So people that didn't vote O day 4:
jot (dead townie), shraeye, ftl, Dsell, sparky, watno, yuma and cayvie (although she encouraged it if I remember correctly)
So combining this along with who didn't vote Grujah Day 1.
sparky, Dsell, shraeye, cayvie are the four players who neither voted for Grujah Day 1 nor O Day 4 (I am not counting Day 5 because at that point he was obvscum). I think there is a high likelyhood of finding scum here... but I also think there is a high chance of finding bussing scum as well.
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Yuma. Do you have anything to say about last night?
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sparky, Dsell, shraeye, cayvie are the four players who neither voted for Grujah Day 1 nor O Day 4 (I am not counting Day 5 because at that point he was obvscum). I think there is a high likelyhood of finding scum here... but I also think there is a high chance of finding bussing scum as well.
Are you kidding me.
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sparky, Dsell, shraeye, cayvie are the four players who neither voted for Grujah Day 1 nor O Day 4 (I am not counting Day 5 because at that point he was obvscum). I think there is a high likelyhood of finding scum here... but I also think there is a high chance of finding bussing scum as well.
Are you kidding me.
Since he didn't state it outright:
sparky and Insomniac are confirmed town at this point. They are claimed masons along-side joth, who is dead and flipped: mason.
I still have no reason to suspect cayvie. Her play seems too weird for scum.
DSell is sort of cleared by eHalc, who is town. And it seemed like he was part of the masonic neighborhood (I could be wrong, but I think he said something that sounded like it)
shraeye is part of the Cuzz-ashersky-shraeye claiming fiasco.
So, the two most likely scum in that group from my POV are DSell and shraeye. I feel like shraeye is the much more likely scum of the pair.
I think we're more likely to find scum in the bussers. From most to least likely, I'd go:
ftl, yuma, ashersky, watno, axxle, morgrim, cuzz.
By the time we hit Morgrim, I'm finding it highly unlikely.
given yuma's list, I know that the first three only hit one of the scum wagons.
I know axxle was on both wagons...although he was quick to want to give O the chance to vig. (although I followed along pretty quickly since I thought it was a good idea at the time, so I can't be too hard on him for it)
If I had to give a scummy to least scummy ranking, I'd probably go:
ftl, shraeye, yuma, ashersky, DSell, watno, axxle, morgrim, cuzz, cayvie, sparky, Insomniac
I'm not sure I could justify that list, it's mostly just a combination of how likely I find their current claim, and general feelings from their posts.
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sparky, Dsell, shraeye, cayvie are the four players who neither voted for Grujah Day 1 nor O Day 4 (I am not counting Day 5 because at that point he was obvscum). I think there is a high likelyhood of finding scum here... but I also think there is a high chance of finding bussing scum as well.
Are you kidding me.
Sorry... I forgot that you were part of the mason group.
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Yuma. Do you have anything to say about last night?
Are you alluding to who I passed the wine to last night? I have already asked if people thought I should share it. I think I should, but wanted to hear from others before just jumping into that. But since you asked...
From the wine I learned that Watno's description said that he didn't have a special power, but was part of a team.
From this I think we can potentially infere that since Watno was not part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier, he is not a vanilla townie... I also think the word team here is interesting. Team as in faction? As in mafia faction? Potentially... Now... who in a mafia faction would not have a special role? A mafia goon perhaps?
Based off this I am comfortable with a vote: watno but am interested in hearing discussion surrounding this.
(side note, I PMed Robz asking him if the wording that I used above would be acceptable. He said it would be.)
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In rereading just now Watno's posts... I should mention that he did in fact place a vote on O
Post by: Watno on November 01, 2012, 07:05:36 pm
Are you guys serious? O claims to be JOAT having used a oneshot cop, but needs 3 tries to remember who he used it on? Is there something I'm missing or why are you all unvoting? I mean I could believe that he missed YN claimed a power role and blocked him, but forgetting whose alignment you got to know is just too much.
vote O
ashersky still looks bad, basically all he's saying is that its totally ridiculous to believe he's not obvtown.
I missed it because it lacked the colon when I did a search for it...
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Vote: Yuma
No that is not what I was talking about.
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Vote: Yuma
No that is not what I was talking about.
Then I have no idea what you are talking about... Care to inform me?
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Vote: Yuma
No that is not what I was talking about.
Then I have no idea what you are talking about... Care to inform me?
Masons is not what Jo, Sparky and I are, we are neighbourizers. Each night we can recruit people into our quicktopic. We have in fact recruited every night and feel fairly confident that we have only recruited town aligned people but the alignment of those we recruit isn't confirmed to us as we are to them.
Two nights back we recruited you. Last night you never came into the quicktopic despite being active on the forums during the night phase, and in your last post admitting to having received PM's. Robz told us he had PM'd a reminder to you about night actions and QT involvement.
Yet you are still acting like Sparky and I are not conf town. and have not acknowledged the fact you did not show up in our QT.
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Vote: Yuma
No that is not what I was talking about.
Then I have no idea what you are talking about... Care to inform me?
Masons is not what Jo, Sparky and I are, we are neighbourizers. Each night we can recruit people into our quicktopic. We have in fact recruited every night and feel fairly confident that we have only recruited town aligned people but the alignment of those we recruit isn't confirmed to us as we are to them.
Two nights back we recruited you. Last night you never came into the quicktopic despite being active on the forums during the night phase, and in your last post admitting to having received PM's. Robz told us he had PM'd a reminder to you about night actions and QT involvement.
Yet you are still acting like Sparky and I are not conf town. and have not acknowledged the fact you did not show up in our QT.
Well that is interesting... If that is the case then in fact I was not actually recruited. I have the ability to be a Hider at times. I think you will see that this--sparky--will correspond to my description. As such any action taken toward me at any time when I am hiding will result in no action. See Frisk's investigation of me in that regard. I never received a PM from Robz. If you wish to recruit me tonight, I can guarantee that I will not activate my Hiding powers.
And... I am annoyed with your guy's lies in saying that you aren't confirmed town to each other... Just saying. Now I am off to bed
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Vote: Yuma
No that is not what I was talking about.
Then I have no idea what you are talking about... Care to inform me?
Masons is not what Jo, Sparky and I are, we are neighbourizers. Each night we can recruit people into our quicktopic. We have in fact recruited every night and feel fairly confident that we have only recruited town aligned people but the alignment of those we recruit isn't confirmed to us as we are to them.
Two nights back we recruited you. Last night you never came into the quicktopic despite being active on the forums during the night phase, and in your last post admitting to having received PM's. Robz told us he had PM'd a reminder to you about night actions and QT involvement.
Yet you are still acting like Sparky and I are not conf town. and have not acknowledged the fact you did not show up in our QT.
Well that is interesting... If that is the case then in fact I was not actually recruited. I have the ability to be a Hider at times. I think you will see that this--sparky--will correspond to my description. As such any action taken toward me at any time when I am hiding will result in no action. See Frisk's investigation of me in that regard. I never received a PM from Robz. If you wish to recruit me tonight, I can guarantee that I will not activate my Hiding powers.
And... I am annoyed with your guy's lies in saying that you aren't confirmed town to each other... Just saying. Now I am off to bed
Not sure what you mean by this last line, I also know what your description is, so I do see this hider thing as plausible.
Sparky, Jo and I are confirmed town to each other. The people we recruit we are not told the alignment of so we are not sure if the people we recruit are town but to name a few of the recruits, we recruited Galz night 1 (died night 2), eHal night 2 (died night 3)
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Because I believe your explanation especially given your description yuma. Unvote
Vote: Watno
Now do NOT declare to us or anyone whether you are using your powers our not as it would be best for scum to not know.
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sparky, Dsell, shraeye, cayvie are the four players who neither voted for Grujah Day 1 nor O Day 4 (I am not counting Day 5 because at that point he was obvscum). I think there is a high likelyhood of finding scum here... but I also think there is a high chance of finding bussing scum as well.
I want some credit for starting and pressing the case against O.
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This theory that scum=people who have never been scum before doesn't make any sense. Robz said that some alignments were determined randomly, which doesn't make sense when one side is determined in another way (I don't think he was just refering to neutral roles there).
@yuma I am part of a team, are you not? It's called "town". I also don't know how you get the idea that I'm not "part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier", since I'm in fact a VT. I assume you're referencing Morgrim's claim about there being 4 VTs and 3 mostly VTs. If I didn't miss anything, we have 1 dead VT and 2 dead mostly VTs so far, plus 2 people (shraeye and ashersky) claiming to be one. That would make me the last VT remaining, but I'm not sure wether to believe those other two claims.
I do indeed have the wine, and I have to say I was quite confused in the beginning because I got a bit of a scum vibe from reading yuma's description, and was confused wether I had received another description than sparky, because he didn't seem to find it suspicious. This hider thing explains it though.
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Insomniac: The last line was a misinterpretation of what you were saying. I now see that you, jot and sparky are confirmed town to each other, but the other people that you recruit aren't. That makes sense. Also are the people you recruit allowed to say that they had been recruited in this thread?
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So people that didn't vote O day 4:
jot (dead townie), shraeye, ftl, Dsell, sparky, watno, yuma and cayvie (although she encouraged it if I remember correctly)
Credit already given
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This theory that scum=people who have never been scum before doesn't make any sense. Robz said that some alignments were determined randomly, which doesn't make sense when one side is determined in another way (I don't think he was just refering to neutral roles there).
I have already said that this theory should not be used today. We don't have enough info to go off. But If the next one or two mafia players have also never been mafia, you can be sure I will be looking very closely at everyone else that hasn't been mafia yet. For now... it is just a crazy theory.
@yuma I am part of a team, are you not? It's called "town". I also don't know how you get the idea that I'm not "part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier", since I'm in fact a VT. I assume you're referencing Morgrim's claim about there being 4 VTs and 3 mostly VTs. If I didn't miss anything, we have 1 dead VT and 2 dead mostly VTs so far, plus 2 people (shraeye and ashersky) claiming to be one. That would make me the last VT remaining, but I'm not sure wether to believe those other two claims.
I do indeed have the wine, and I have to say I was quite confused in the beginning because I got a bit of a scum vibe from reading yuma's description, and was confused wether I had received another description than sparky, because he didn't seem to find it suspicious. This hider thing explains it though.
Town is rarely called "team." Never heard of anyone saying "I am part of a townteam." However, the term scumteam comes up pretty often.
I can't completely remember what went down concerning Morgrim's claim regarding a certain amount of VTs. If Morgrim would like to clarify that for us. I'll also go back and try to find those quotes and see if we can clarify. But I do feel that we reached a cap on the number of VTs, but dont' have a specific quote to back it up at the moment. I'll see if I can find it and then see if we can get it clarified.
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This theory that scum=people who have never been scum before doesn't make any sense. Robz said that some alignments were determined randomly, which doesn't make sense when one side is determined in another way (I don't think he was just refering to neutral roles there).
I have already said that this theory should not be used today. We don't have enough info to go off. But If the next one or two mafia players have also never been mafia, you can be sure I will be looking very closely at everyone else that hasn't been mafia yet. For now... it is just a crazy theory.
@yuma I am part of a team, are you not? It's called "town". I also don't know how you get the idea that I'm not "part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier", since I'm in fact a VT. I assume you're referencing Morgrim's claim about there being 4 VTs and 3 mostly VTs. If I didn't miss anything, we have 1 dead VT and 2 dead mostly VTs so far, plus 2 people (shraeye and ashersky) claiming to be one. That would make me the last VT remaining, but I'm not sure wether to believe those other two claims.
I do indeed have the wine, and I have to say I was quite confused in the beginning because I got a bit of a scum vibe from reading yuma's description, and was confused wether I had received another description than sparky, because he didn't seem to find it suspicious. This hider thing explains it though.
Town is rarely called "team." Never heard of anyone saying "I am part of a townteam." However, the term scumteam comes up pretty often.
I can't completely remember what went down concerning Morgrim's claim regarding a certain amount of VTs. If Morgrim would like to clarify that for us. I'll also go back and try to find those quotes and see if we can clarify. But I do feel that we reached a cap on the number of VTs, but dont' have a specific quote to back it up at the moment. I'll see if I can find it and then see if we can get it clarified.
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I can already add that we already have two dead VTs in ehunt (Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4) and eHal (Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3)
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I can already add that we already have two dead VTs in ehunt (Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4) and eHal (Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3)
Galzria was also a VT with the cup "Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2"
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Post by: Morgrim7 on October 14, 2012, 09:08:55 pm
Actually, my role confirms that at the start of the game, there were three mostly vanilla townies (like myself), and four true vanilla townies.
So that is a total of 7 players?
The three mostly vanilla townies appear to be: Morgrim, ehunt and Galz
The four true vanilla townies appear to be: eHal, ash claimed it and so did shraeye. I couldn't find another VT claim, so it appears you are right that there is room for one more. Is it you? I really don't know. And yes I don't know if ash or shraeye is telling the truth at this point.
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you do realize that Galz and eHalc having an extra word before Vanilla Townie, namely "Cupbearing" and "Thirsty", which probably means that they are not VTs as per Morgrim, but just mostly VTs. Also, using that logic, you should have realized that one of ashersky, shraeye or Morgrim was a liar a while ago.
If what Morgrim said about the number of VTs was not what you were refering to with group of VTs, what was it?
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you do realize that Galz and eHalc having an extra word before Vanilla Townie, namely "Cupbearing" and "Thirsty", which probably means that they are not VTs as per Morgrim, but just mostly VTs. Also, using that logic, you should have realized that one of ashersky, shraeye or Morgrim was a liar a while ago.
If what Morgrim said about the number of VTs was not what you were refering to with group of VTs, what was it?
see above
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Care to answe my question?
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Care to answe my question?
what question?
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If what Morgrim said about the number of VTs was not what you were refering to with group of VTs, what was it?
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@yuma. I could claim who they are and so can they. However since it is unlikely sparky and I both die tonight (probably one of us will) they can wait tomorrow if they like. Regardless of whether they claim today or tomorrow either sparky or I should be here to confirm we recruited them
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Also, the word team is usually not used in conjunction with town, because there can't be multiple townteams, but its possible theres multiple scumteams, which is also when the word scumteam is used. Also my PM doesn't say I'm part of a team, it says im part of the team.
@Discussion about claiming people in the QT: I don't see the point in doing so, since it wont tell us anything. I also don't see any important information that would be lost if Insom and sparky don't get to reveal it.
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There is strong reasons to believe these people are town that sparky and I have.
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If what Morgrim said about the number of VTs was not what you were refering to with group of VTs, what was it?
So that is a total of 7 players?
The three mostly vanilla townies appear to be: Morgrim, ehunt and Galz
The four true vanilla townies appear to be: eHal, ash claimed it and so did shraeye. I couldn't find another VT claim, so it appears you are right that there is room for one more. Is it you? I really don't know. And yes I don't know if ash or shraeye is telling the truth at this point.
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From this I think we can potentially infere that since Watno was not part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier, he is not a vanilla townie... I also think the word team here is interesting. Team as in faction? As in mafia faction? Potentially... Now... who in a mafia faction would not have a special role? A mafia goon perhaps?
So where did this come from?
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Oh my gosh....... where to begin.
DSell is sort of cleared by eHalc, who is town. And it seemed like he was part of the masonic neighborhood (I could be wrong, but I think he said something that sounded like it)
I can confirm this. We recruited him in Night 3. eHalcyon pretty much proved that he's VT in our QT. They both have the same card (Pawn), also Dsell and eHalcyon have exchanged descriptions via the wine, and eHalc interpreted Dsell's description as VT.
Wagons on scum for reference:
Grujah (13) -- Glooble, ehunt, yuma, watno, Galzria, eHalcyon, Cuzz, Eevee, Morgrim7, ftl, jotheonah, Axxle
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (3) -- shraeye, sparky5856, Dsell
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
O (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (1) -- O
Cuzz, Morgrim and Axxle opened the voting on O
followed by two dead townies (ehunt, Young Nick)
theorel voted
ashersky voted O
Insomniac voted O
I think that is it, did I miss anyone?
So people that didn't vote O day 4:
jot (dead townie), shraeye, ftl, Dsell, sparky, watno, yuma and cayvie (although she encouraged it if I remember correctly)
Analyzing votes on O for D5:
Cuzz unvotes from him in order to give time to let the wine get passed. Major town points.
ftl claimed he "intended" to vote for O but was waiting for some claiming or something. He never did vote O.
theorel never voted O and posted at least once, but that was before the wine was confirmed to have been passed.
Vote Count 5.4
O (8) -- jotheonah, ashersky, O, Morgrim7, yuma, Dsell, sparky5856, shraeye
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Insomniac, Theorel, Watno, Cuzz, Axxle
My hunch is that all the scum (besides O of course) was off this wagon.
If that is true, then there was at least some bussing going on in the Grujah wagon.
Yuma. Do you have anything to say about last night?
Are you alluding to who I passed the wine to last night? I have already asked if people thought I should share it. I think I should, but wanted to hear from others before just jumping into that. But since you asked...
From the wine I learned that Watno's description said that he didn't have a special power, but was part of a team.
From this I think we can potentially infere that since Watno was not part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier, he is not a vanilla townie... I also think the word team here is interesting. Team as in faction? As in mafia faction? Potentially... Now... who in a mafia faction would not have a special role? A mafia goon perhaps?
Based off this I am comfortable with a vote: watno but am interested in hearing discussion surrounding this.
(side note, I PMed Robz asking him if the wording that I used above would be acceptable. He said it would be.)
VOTE: Watno.
Well that is interesting... If that is the case then in fact I was not actually recruited. I have the ability to be a Hider at times. I think you will see that this--sparky--will correspond to my description. As such any action taken toward me at any time when I am hiding will result in no action. See Frisk's investigation of me in that regard. I never received a PM from Robz. If you wish to recruit me tonight, I can guarantee that I will not activate my Hiding powers.
Now THIS makes sense. FoS: Robz for probably laughing at us while we were complaining during the entirety of N5 why yuma hasn't shown up in the QT. What happened that night perfectly correlates to his description. He lurks even when he's active! And it's not entirely his fault; it's just a side effect of his role. I was skimming through the list of roles to determine what role his description could possibly correlate to. I already reasoned not-VT. Ninja? Hider? Redirector? yuma here confirms that it is indeed Hider. We recruited yuma N4... but the recruit failed because he was hiding; any action taken toward him would ultimately fail and crumble. I don't know how I successfully passed him the wine then... I guess wine-passing is a day-action so it's still valid.
So now that this confirms yuma as town (one more conf-townie O_o), I am inclined to believe him in #3229 above.
This theory that scum=people who have never been scum before doesn't make any sense. Robz said that some alignments were determined randomly, which doesn't make sense when one side is determined in another way (I don't think he was just refering to neutral roles there).
Hehe. It is a ridiculous theory imo. Roles are determined randomly. Stating this to attempt to accumulate town points though is even more funny.
@yuma I am part of a team, are you not? It's called "town".
I was part of a team when I joined this game, besides my mason group obviously. It was called "who the hell is part of my team?" Yes, town is a team, but town does not know, generally, who is part of their team. Mafia knows ALL of their team. And THAT is a team.
I also don't know how you get the idea that I'm not "part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier", since I'm in fact a VT. I assume you're referencing Morgrim's claim about there being 4 VTs and 3 mostly VTs. If I didn't miss anything, we have 1 dead VT and 2 dead mostly VTs so far, plus 2 people (shraeye and ashersky) claiming to be one. That would make me the last VT remaining, but I'm not sure wether to believe those other two claims.
I was hoping to catch someone in this claim. I've kept track of this and all the mostly-VT and purely-VT spots have all been taken. It is now confirmed that someone is indeed lying. I'm inclined to not believe you. You weren't cleared by Cuzz. We're supposed to just take you on faith here.
Morgrim I would like you to clarify your information concerning the number of VT's and mostly-VT's.
Also, the word team is usually not used in conjunction with town, because there can't be multiple townteams, but its possible theres multiple scumteams, which is also when the word scumteam is used. Also my PM doesn't say I'm part of a team, it says im part of the team.
Thanks for clarifying that there's one scumteam, which, hey, we already pretty much could reason by ourselves already.
Also, I'm taking note that Watno's activity is skyrocketing now, after not being much active before and not at all during D5. He had a couple of posts not too far from each other after I called him out in D3, which was higher than usual for him.
All of this adds up to scum.
Man, I am quite surprised that I'm still alive.
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Vote: Watno
Sparky makes a lot of good points in there.
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@sparky: three mostly VTs and four complete VTs. Thats all I know.
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All the following quotes are from the same post from sparky, i just added in my responses between the parts.
Oh my gosh....... where to begin.
DSell is sort of cleared by eHalc, who is town. And it seemed like he was part of the masonic neighborhood (I could be wrong, but I think he said something that sounded like it)
I can confirm this. We recruited him in Night 3. eHalcyon pretty much proved that he's VT in our QT. They both have the same card (Pawn), also Dsell and eHalcyon have exchanged descriptions via the wine, and eHalc interpreted Dsell's description as VT.
eHalc is DEAD, which proves that he is a VT.
Wagons on scum for reference:
Grujah (13) -- Glooble, ehunt, yuma, watno, Galzria, eHalcyon, Cuzz, Eevee, Morgrim7, ftl, jotheonah, Axxle
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (3) -- shraeye, sparky5856, Dsell
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
O (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Not Voting (1) -- O
Cuzz, Morgrim and Axxle opened the voting on O
followed by two dead townies (ehunt, Young Nick)
theorel voted
ashersky voted O
Insomniac voted O
I think that is it, did I miss anyone?
So people that didn't vote O day 4:
jot (dead townie), shraeye, ftl, Dsell, sparky, watno, yuma and cayvie (although she encouraged it if I remember correctly)
Note that I was in fact voting for O at some point on day 4, namely when people started jumping from him to YoungNick after he had claimed, and that my reasons would have been pretty damning, if they hadn't turned out to be a misunderstanding.
Analyzing votes on O for D5:
Cuzz unvotes from him in order to give time to let the wine get passed. Major town points.
ftl claimed he "intended" to vote for O but was waiting for some claiming or something. He never did vote O.
theorel never voted O and posted at least once, but that was before the wine was confirmed to have been passed.
Vote Count 5.4
O (8) -- jotheonah, ashersky, O, Morgrim7, yuma, Dsell, sparky5856, shraeye
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Insomniac, Theorel, Watno, Cuzz, Axxle
My hunch is that all the scum (besides O of course) was off this wagon.
If that is true, then there was at least some bussing going on in the Grujah wagon.
What makes you think scum would bus Grujah, but not O. They thought they could prevent O's lynch, but not Grujahs? Now that mist be it (Hint: this is irony)
Yuma. Do you have anything to say about last night?
Are you alluding to who I passed the wine to last night? I have already asked if people thought I should share it. I think I should, but wanted to hear from others before just jumping into that. But since you asked...
From the wine I learned that Watno's description said that he didn't have a special power, but was part of a team.
From this I think we can potentially infere that since Watno was not part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier, he is not a vanilla townie... I also think the word team here is interesting. Team as in faction? As in mafia faction? Potentially... Now... who in a mafia faction would not have a special role? A mafia goon perhaps?
Based off this I am comfortable with a vote: watno but am interested in hearing discussion surrounding this.
(side note, I PMed Robz asking him if the wording that I used above would be acceptable. He said it would be.)
VOTE: Watno.
Well that is interesting... If that is the case then in fact I was not actually recruited. I have the ability to be a Hider at times. I think you will see that this--sparky--will correspond to my description. As such any action taken toward me at any time when I am hiding will result in no action. See Frisk's investigation of me in that regard. I never received a PM from Robz. If you wish to recruit me tonight, I can guarantee that I will not activate my Hiding powers.
Now THIS makes sense. FoS: Robz for probably laughing at us while we were complaining during the entirety of N5 why yuma hasn't shown up in the QT. What happened that night perfectly correlates to his description. He lurks even when he's active! And it's not entirely his fault; it's just a side effect of his role. I was skimming through the list of roles to determine what role his description could possibly correlate to. I already reasoned not-VT. Ninja? Hider? Redirector? yuma here confirms that it is indeed Hider. We recruited yuma N4... but the recruit failed because he was hiding; any action taken toward him would ultimately fail and crumble. I don't know how I successfully passed him the wine then... I guess wine-passing is a day-action so it's still valid.
So now that this confirms yuma as town (one more conf-townie O_o), I am inclined to believe him in #3229 above.
How does this confirm yuma as town? The more i think about it, the more I'm convinced with this lot of investigatove roles apparently being around, it would make sense for scum to have a role that could avoid being investigated by them.
This theory that scum=people who have never been scum before doesn't make any sense. Robz said that some alignments were determined randomly, which doesn't make sense when one side is determined in another way (I don't think he was just refering to neutral roles there).
Hehe. It is a ridiculous theory imo. Roles are determined randomly. Stating this to attempt to accumulate town points though is even more funny.
Lol, so when the confirmed townie decides that I am scum, I'm not even allowed to point out to town that they shouldn't consider some theories that make no sense at all?
@yuma I am part of a team, are you not? It's called "town".
I was part of a team when I joined this game, besides my mason group obviously. It was called "who the hell is part of my team?" Yes, town is a team, but town does not know, generally, who is part of their team. Mafia knows ALL of their team. And THAT is a team.
The name of your QT is even more evidence for team refering to town. You knew who the other masons were, so "Who the hell is part of my team" was obviously referncing to you tzying to find out who the rest of your team (town) is.
I also don't know how you get the idea that I'm not "part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier", since I'm in fact a VT. I assume you're referencing Morgrim's claim about there being 4 VTs and 3 mostly VTs. If I didn't miss anything, we have 1 dead VT and 2 dead mostly VTs so far, plus 2 people (shraeye and ashersky) claiming to be one. That would make me the last VT remaining, but I'm not sure wether to believe those other two claims.
I was hoping to catch someone in this claim. I've kept track of this and all the mostly-VT and purely-VT spots have all been taken. It is now confirmed that someone is indeed lying. I'm inclined to not believe you. You weren't cleared by Cuzz. We're supposed to just take you on faith here.
My claim is as much cleared by sparky than ashersky's is by Cuzz. It's confirmed for both of us that our PMs imply we have no special ability. I don't know about Dsell's claim (you have the description there), and I don't think shraeyes has been checked by anyone.
Morgrim I would like you to clarify your information concerning the number of VT's and mostly-VT's.
Also, the word team is usually not used in conjunction with town, because there can't be multiple townteams, but its possible theres multiple scumteams, which is also when the word scumteam is used. Also my PM doesn't say I'm part of a team, it says im part of the team.
Thanks for clarifying that there's one scumteam, which, hey, we already pretty much could reason by ourselves already.
Thanks for completely ignoring what I was saying there.
Also, I'm taking note that Watno's activity is skyrocketing now, after not being much active before and not at all during D5. He had a couple of posts not too far from each other after I called him out in D3, which was higher than usual for him.
Might have to do with the fact that it's much less work to defend against ridiculous accusations than to go through the whole thread to find signs of scumminess.
All of this adds up to scum.
Man, I am quite surprised that I'm still alive.
Vote: Watno
Sparky makes a lot of good points in there.
No, he doesn't. It's really annoying everyone just sheeps a confirmed townie, without realizing that what he says doesn't make much sense really.
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Vote Count 6.2
Watno (4) -- yuma, Insomniac, sparky5856, ashersky {L-3}
Not Voting (9) -- ftl, Dsell, Axxle, Cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, Theorel, Morgrim7, Watno
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Monday, November 19, at 6:00 PM EDT.
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Oh my gosh....... where to begin.
DSell is sort of cleared by eHalc, who is town. And it seemed like he was part of the masonic neighborhood (I could be wrong, but I think he said something that sounded like it)
I can confirm this. We recruited him in Night 3. eHalcyon pretty much proved that he's VT in our QT. They both have the same card (Pawn), also Dsell and eHalcyon have exchanged descriptions via the wine, and eHalc interpreted Dsell's description as VT.
eHalc is DEAD, which proves that he is a VT.
This has NOTHING to do with what I said.
Note that I was in fact voting for O at some point on day 4, namely when people started jumping from him to YoungNick after he had claimed, and that my reasons would have been pretty damning, if they hadn't turned out to be a misunderstanding.
Blame yuma for that, I missed that.
Analyzing votes on O for D5:
Cuzz unvotes from him in order to give time to let the wine get passed. Major town points.
ftl claimed he "intended" to vote for O but was waiting for some claiming or something. He never did vote O.
theorel never voted O and posted at least once, but that was before the wine was confirmed to have been passed.
Vote Count 5.4
O (8) -- jotheonah, ashersky, O, Morgrim7, yuma, Dsell, sparky5856, shraeye
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Insomniac, Theorel, Watno, Cuzz, Axxle
My hunch is that all the scum (besides O of course) was off this wagon.
If that is true, then there was at least some bussing going on in the Grujah wagon.
What makes you think scum would bus Grujah, but not O. They thought they could prevent O's lynch, but not Grujahs? Now that mist be it (Hint: this is irony)
Wow... it's not that black-and-white. It could be for a variety of reasons. Bussing your partner D1 could get you some serious town points, there's that. And not all the scum were voting for Grujah on D1... we know that at least. Maybe they did (foolishly) think they could prevent O's lynch? That would be silly though.
Now THIS makes sense. FoS: Robz for probably laughing at us while we were complaining during the entirety of N5 why yuma hasn't shown up in the QT. What happened that night perfectly correlates to his description. He lurks even when he's active! And it's not entirely his fault; it's just a side effect of his role. I was skimming through the list of roles to determine what role his description could possibly correlate to. I already reasoned not-VT. Ninja? Hider? Redirector? yuma here confirms that it is indeed Hider. We recruited yuma N4... but the recruit failed because he was hiding; any action taken toward him would ultimately fail and crumble. I don't know how I successfully passed him the wine then... I guess wine-passing is a day-action so it's still valid.
So now that this confirms yuma as town (one more conf-townie O_o), I am inclined to believe him in #3229 above.
How does this confirm yuma as town? The more i think about it, the more I'm convinced with this lot of investigatove roles apparently being around, it would make sense for scum to have a role that could avoid being investigated by them.
But we weren't trying to investigate him. We were trying to recruit him.
This theory that scum=people who have never been scum before doesn't make any sense. Robz said that some alignments were determined randomly, which doesn't make sense when one side is determined in another way (I don't think he was just refering to neutral roles there).
Hehe. It is a ridiculous theory imo. Roles are determined randomly. Stating this to attempt to accumulate town points though is even more funny.
Lol, so when the confirmed townie decides that I am scum, I'm not even allowed to point out to town that they shouldn't consider some theories that make no sense at all?
yuma himself said not to use the theory to hunt for scum. So for you to point out that it's ridiculous was not necessary.
@yuma I am part of a team, are you not? It's called "town".
I was part of a team when I joined this game, besides my mason group obviously. It was called "who the hell is part of my team?" Yes, town is a team, but town does not know, generally, who is part of their team. Mafia knows ALL of their team. And THAT is a team.
The name of your QT is even more evidence for team refering to town. You knew who the other masons were, so "Who the hell is part of my team" was obviously referncing to you tzying to find out who the rest of your team (town) is.
Uhhhh, okay? But, how can we be a team if we're trying to find out who everyone else is? If two townies end up accusing each other of scum, that's not a team.
I also don't know how you get the idea that I'm not "part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier", since I'm in fact a VT. I assume you're referencing Morgrim's claim about there being 4 VTs and 3 mostly VTs. If I didn't miss anything, we have 1 dead VT and 2 dead mostly VTs so far, plus 2 people (shraeye and ashersky) claiming to be one. That would make me the last VT remaining, but I'm not sure wether to believe those other two claims.
I was hoping to catch someone in this claim. I've kept track of this and all the mostly-VT and purely-VT spots have all been taken. It is now confirmed that someone is indeed lying. I'm inclined to not believe you. You weren't cleared by Cuzz. We're supposed to just take you on faith here.
My claim is as much cleared by sparky than ashersky's is by Cuzz. It's confirmed for both of us that our PMs imply we have no special ability. I don't know about Dsell's claim (you have the description there), and I don't think shraeyes has been checked by anyone.
Okay but I didn't actually check your description. Cuzz actually physically has ashersky's description.
Morgrim I would like you to clarify your information concerning the number of VT's and mostly-VT's.
Also, the word team is usually not used in conjunction with town, because there can't be multiple townteams, but its possible theres multiple scumteams, which is also when the word scumteam is used. Also my PM doesn't say I'm part of a team, it says im part of the team.
Thanks for clarifying that there's one scumteam, which, hey, we already pretty much could reason by ourselves already.
Thanks for completely ignoring what I was saying there.
I noticed that you're doing the same thing. So, we're even now, right?
The fact that the word "scumteam" stems from the fact that there are multiple scumteams is ridiculous. What if there's only one scum team (which seems very likely here)? They're not a scumteam then?
Also, I'm taking note that Watno's activity is skyrocketing now, after not being much active before and not at all during D5. He had a couple of posts not too far from each other after I called him out in D3, which was higher than usual for him.
Might have to do with the fact that it's much less work to defend against ridiculous accusations than to go through the whole thread to find signs of scumminess.
How many people have accused you of being scum? I've pretty much been the only one pressing for it in the slightest, right? And you didn't consider Frisk's RVS vote on you to be a ridiculous accusation?
Vote: Watno
Sparky makes a lot of good points in there.
No, he doesn't. It's really annoying everyone just sheeps a confirmed townie, without realizing that what he says doesn't make much sense really.
ashersky is everyone? Well I'm pretty sure that's a lie, since I know that I'm still here.
Ugh, my head hurts.
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Where is half the town? Oh yeah it's the weekend, I should consider that. At least football is tomorrow, thank goodness for that.
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Sparky, when this or that person happens to get online (assuming you are online too), do you want to call for a claim? Same goes for Insom if he's online when he-knows-who is online too.
Yeah they recruited me and yeah I'm town and we are really close to breaking this game wide open guys.
Watno's very very likely scum because I'm almost positive Shraeye is VT and I'm pretty sure Ashersky is VT too. Plus me and eHal makes 4. All VTs and VT+ people are accounted for at this point.
Though, to be extra sure, Morgrim, are you included in those 3 VT+ people? Or is it 3 VT+ people besides you?
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I think Morgrim previously stated he is among the VT+. I would like this clarified too though.
I actually am unsure who the "this or that" person is >_< If it's something we discussed in the QT, I wasn't there for much of it, Imma check.
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In rereading just now Watno's posts... I should mention that he did in fact place a vote on O
Post by: Watno on November 01, 2012, 07:05:36 pm
Are you guys serious? O claims to be JOAT having used a oneshot cop, but needs 3 tries to remember who he used it on? Is there something I'm missing or why are you all unvoting? I mean I could believe that he missed YN claimed a power role and blocked him, but forgetting whose alignment you got to know is just too much.
vote O
ashersky still looks bad, basically all he's saying is that its totally ridiculous to believe he's not obvtown.
I missed it because it lacked the colon when I did a search for it...
Okay this was why I missed Watno's vote on O >_<
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vote: watno
vt claim contradicts description, therefore lying scum, logic seems sound to me
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ftl, while you're here, would you please claim? I know I told Sparky or Insom to do it earlier, but honestly I should carry about as much weight as them around here at this point.
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Vote: ftl so he gets the message.
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1 shot lightning rod
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1 shot lightning rod
Tell us more.
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1 shot lightning rod
Tell us more.
I would like a FULL CLAIM from you. Not only role name, but card name, paraphrase of your description, any relevant night actions. I believe that town radically outnumbers scum at this point so there is no reason to hide anything if you are town. I believe that we could be able to get a pretty good idea about who the remaining scum are in the next couple of days.
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Oh my gosh....... where to begin.
DSell is sort of cleared by eHalc, who is town. And it seemed like he was part of the masonic neighborhood (I could be wrong, but I think he said something that sounded like it)
I can confirm this. We recruited him in Night 3. eHalcyon pretty much proved that he's VT in our QT. They both have the same card (Pawn), also Dsell and eHalcyon have exchanged descriptions via the wine, and eHalc interpreted Dsell's description as VT.
eHalc is DEAD, which proves that he is a VT.
This has NOTHING to do with what I said.
You were talking about eHalc being confirmed VT to you, i pointed out that hes proved VT for everyone (just in case there's someone else who realizes that even confirmed Townies
can be wrong
Note that I was in fact voting for O at some point on day 4, namely when people started jumping from him to YoungNick after he had claimed, and that my reasons would have been pretty damning, if they hadn't turned out to be a misunderstanding.
Blame yuma for that, I missed that.
Analyzing votes on O for D5:
Cuzz unvotes from him in order to give time to let the wine get passed. Major town points.
ftl claimed he "intended" to vote for O but was waiting for some claiming or something. He never did vote O.
theorel never voted O and posted at least once, but that was before the wine was confirmed to have been passed.
Vote Count 5.4
O (8) -- jotheonah, ashersky, O, Morgrim7, yuma, Dsell, sparky5856, shraeye
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not voting (6) -- ftl, Insomniac, Theorel, Watno, Cuzz, Axxle
My hunch is that all the scum (besides O of course) was off this wagon.
If that is true, then there was at least some bussing going on in the Grujah wagon.
What makes you think scum would bus Grujah, but not O. They thought they could prevent O's lynch, but not Grujahs? Now that mist be it (Hint: this is irony)
Wow... it's not that black-and-white. It could be for a variety of reasons. Bussing your partner D1 could get you some serious town points, there's that. And not all the scum were voting for Grujah on D1... we know that at least. Maybe they did (foolishly) think they could prevent O's lynch? That would be silly though.
You said you believed its this way around, i said it makes way more sense to be the other way. If I was scum I would feel insulted by you thinking I'd be stupid enough tothink I could prevent O's lynch.
Now THIS makes sense. FoS: Robz for probably laughing at us while we were complaining during the entirety of N5 why yuma hasn't shown up in the QT. What happened that night perfectly correlates to his description. He lurks even when he's active! And it's not entirely his fault; it's just a side effect of his role. I was skimming through the list of roles to determine what role his description could possibly correlate to. I already reasoned not-VT. Ninja? Hider? Redirector? yuma here confirms that it is indeed Hider. We recruited yuma N4... but the recruit failed because he was hiding; any action taken toward him would ultimately fail and crumble. I don't know how I successfully passed him the wine then... I guess wine-passing is a day-action so it's still valid.
So now that this confirms yuma as town (one more conf-townie O_o), I am inclined to believe him in #3229 above.
How does this confirm yuma as town? The more i think about it, the more I'm convinced with this lot of investigatove roles apparently being around, it would make sense for scum to have a role that could avoid being investigated by them.
But we weren't trying to investigate him. We were trying to recruit him.
But his role also protects him from investigation. Again: How does this confirm yuma as town?
This theory that scum=people who have never been scum before doesn't make any sense. Robz said that some alignments were determined randomly, which doesn't make sense when one side is determined in another way (I don't think he was just refering to neutral roles there).
Hehe. It is a ridiculous theory imo. Roles are determined randomly. Stating this to attempt to accumulate town points though is even more funny.
Lol, so when the confirmed townie decides that I am scum, I'm not even allowed to point out to town that they shouldn't consider some theories that make no sense at all?
yuma himself said not to use the theory to hunt for scum. So for you to point out that it's ridiculous was not necessary.
yuma said he might use it later, Axxle seemed inclined to use it now. I'm afraid I won't be around "later", so I had to say it now.
@yuma I am part of a team, are you not? It's called "town".
I was part of a team when I joined this game, besides my mason group obviously. It was called "who the hell is part of my team?" Yes, town is a team, but town does not know, generally, who is part of their team. Mafia knows ALL of their team. And THAT is a team.
The name of your QT is even more evidence for team refering to town. You knew who the other masons were, so "Who the hell is part of my team" was obviously referncing to you tzying to find out who the rest of your team (town) is.
Uhhhh, okay? But, how can we be a team if we're trying to find out who everyone else is? If two townies end up accusing each other of scum, that's not a team.
You have a strange idea of what a team is. In a game, imo a team is a group of players that win together. Even though you are attacking me, I know you are in my team.
I also don't know how you get the idea that I'm not "part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier", since I'm in fact a VT. I assume you're referencing Morgrim's claim about there being 4 VTs and 3 mostly VTs. If I didn't miss anything, we have 1 dead VT and 2 dead mostly VTs so far, plus 2 people (shraeye and ashersky) claiming to be one. That would make me the last VT remaining, but I'm not sure wether to believe those other two claims.
I was hoping to catch someone in this claim. I've kept track of this and all the mostly-VT and purely-VT spots have all been taken. It is now confirmed that someone is indeed lying. I'm inclined to not believe you. You weren't cleared by Cuzz. We're supposed to just take you on faith here.
My claim is as much cleared by sparky than ashersky's is by Cuzz. It's confirmed for both of us that our PMs imply we have no special ability. I don't know about Dsell's claim (you have the description there), and I don't think shraeyes has been checked by anyone.
Okay but I didn't actually check your description. Cuzz actually physically has ashersky's description.
YOU didn't check ashersky's description either. Cuzz checked his, yuma checked mine. The problem is I believe both of them misinterpreted it. (I know at least one did).
Morgrim I would like you to clarify your information concerning the number of VT's and mostly-VT's.
Also, the word team is usually not used in conjunction with town, because there can't be multiple townteams, but its possible theres multiple scumteams, which is also when the word scumteam is used. Also my PM doesn't say I'm part of a team, it says im part of the team.
Thanks for clarifying that there's one scumteam, which, hey, we already pretty much could reason by ourselves already.
Thanks for completely ignoring what I was saying there.
I noticed that you're doing the same thing. So, we're even now, right?
Where?
The fact that the word "scumteam" stems from the fact that there are multiple scumteams is ridiculous. What if there's only one scum team (which seems very likely here)? They're not a scumteam then?
If you go and look in what situations the word scumteam is used, you'llk find that in the large majority of cases it will be when discussing about the number of them
Also, I'm taking note that Watno's activity is skyrocketing now, after not being much active before and not at all during D5. He had a couple of posts not too far from each other after I called him out in D3, which was higher than usual for him.
Might have to do with the fact that it's much less work to defend against ridiculous accusations than to go through the whole thread to find signs of scumminess.
How many people have accused you of being scum? I've pretty much been the only one pressing for it in the slightest, right? And you didn't consider Frisk's RVS vote on you to be a ridiculous accusation?
It's not RVS anymore. You have brought forward what people think are good arguments, which i can show is not true
Vote: Watno
Sparky makes a lot of good points in there.
No, he doesn't. It's really annoying everyone just sheeps a confirmed townie, without realizing that what he says doesn't make much sense really.
ashersky is everyone? Well I'm pretty sure that's a lie, since I know that I'm still here.
I don't get what you mean to say with the second sentence there, but there's already one more player doing it (ftl), and he apparently didn't even read the accusations, because then he would know that my description doesn't contradict me being a VT (except if you agree that team=scum, but then the reason for the vote wouldnt be contradiction, but that fact on its own
@Dsell Nice logic there. Town always outnumbers scum (or mafiua at least) until the game is over. So we shoul always do a massclaim D1?
Ugh, my head hurts.
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messed up quotes the @Dsell part of the last qoute is from me.
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Anyone know who Robz's first scumteam was?
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Wanna start another ridiculous theory?
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Wanna start another ridiculous theory?
?
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1 shot lightning rod
Tell us more.
I would like a FULL CLAIM from you. Not only role name, but card name, paraphrase of your description, any relevant night actions. I believe that town radically outnumbers scum at this point so there is no reason to hide anything if you are town. I believe that we could be able to get a pretty good idea about who the remaining scum are in the next couple of days.
role - 1-shot lightning rod
card - mining village
description - am I allowed to quote it? Something about being a longtime mafia player and thus giving me something special albeit wacky to do.
have taken no night actions
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Ok... correct me if I am wrong.
The three mostly vanilla townies appear to be: Morgrim, ehunt and Galz
The four true vanilla townies appear to be: eHal, ash claimed it and so did shraeye. I couldn't find another VT claim, so it appears you are right that there is room for one more. Is it you? I really don't know. And yes I don't know if ash or shraeye is telling the truth at this point.
We can now add Dsell to the list of people who are VTs? I kinda wish that we hadn't already stated which card it was that the VTs share... but o well. So that is Dsell, ashersky, eHal (confirmed) and Watno who have claimed or had other claim it for them.
ashersky has Cuzz to back his up.
Dsell has sparky to back his up.
Watno has ??? anyone?
For this reason alone I think Watno is the best lynch candidate. His posts earlier did nothing to make me want to vote him less, in fact his posts increased it.
I standby my vote.
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Shraeye has sorta kinda mostly claimed VT. As icky as it is, the whole Shraeye-trying-to-prove-his-towniness-gets-the-thread-locked debacle makes Shraeye look very townie to me. I actually think it's a lot more likely that the description that Cuzz saw was Shraeye's based on this. I think this does give Ashersky some level of towniness, but in my mind, he's not quite as confirmed as Shraeye.
I'm not sure if I slipped that I was VT first or if Sparky did. Oops. Oh well. Scum is still in mostly the same dilemma.
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Wanna start another ridiculous theory?
?
I think I just realized what you are trying to say. Originally I thought you wanted to start a theory that Robz picked his former scum buddies as scum for this game, but now I realized you might be giving an example for use of the word scumteam. Right?
Anyway, if you look at the first part of this game, you'll see that almost always when people use the word scum team, they're talking about the number of those.
@yuma you have my description, Cuzz seems to have ashersky's. Both say that we have no special abilities, the difference is that Cuzz concluded asgersky was a VT, while you concluded I was scum. I know one of these conclusions to be wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if the other was too.
BTW, you still didnt answer my question
So I know one of these 4 is lying: ashersky, shraeye, Dsell and Morgrim:
I don't believe its Morgrim, it just seems too bold of a lie to be one.
Apparently the masons have strong reasons to believe that Dsell isn't lying, so I'll hope they aren't wrong here too.
I agree with Dsell that the thread look makes shraeye believable, though i feel a bit bad for uising this as an argument.
So that leaves ashersky. This also fits with the suspicions i had of him earlier, particularily not being willing to take responsibility for his own actions, but just sheeping others as "needed", especially after he thought everyone was convinced he was town (which as said, is exactly the opoosite of what one would expect if he indeed is, but as i see now, might in fact be the best play for some people) and his soft derailing from O (see #2869).
So vote ashersky
I'm also still suspicious of theorel, who seems to only post substance when asked called out, but also tries to make posts where doesn't look like ones where he does (see #3014 and my response in #3019 for example). I think, at this point, I think it would be a good idea if theorel claimed. If he's in laim VT, taking fact scum, and doesn't have a townish ability, he'll either have to make one up and potentially be caught lying, or claiming VT, taking us from a group of 4 with one guy lying to a group of 4 with 2 lying or just Morgrim lying (which, as said, I think is unlikely)
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Wanna start another ridiculous theory?
?
I think I just realized what you are trying to say. Originally I thought you wanted to start a theory that Robz picked his former scum buddies as scum for this game, but now I realized you might be giving an example for use of the word scumteam. Right?
Anyway, if you look at the first part of this game, you'll see that almost always when people use the word scum team, they're talking about the number of those.
@yuma you have my description, Cuzz seems to have ashersky's. Both say that we have no special abilities, the difference is that Cuzz concluded asgersky was a VT, while you concluded I was scum. I know one of these conclusions to be wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if the other was too.
BTW, you still didnt answer my question
So I know one of these 4 is lying: ashersky, shraeye, Dsell and Morgrim:
I don't believe its Morgrim, it just seems too bold of a lie to be one.
Apparently the masons have strong reasons to believe that Dsell isn't lying, so I'll hope they aren't wrong here too.
I agree with Dsell that the thread look makes shraeye believable, though i feel a bit bad for uising this as an argument.
So that leaves ashersky. This also fits with the suspicions i had of him earlier, particularily not being willing to take responsibility for his own actions, but just sheeping others as "needed", especially after he thought everyone was convinced he was town (which as said, is exactly the opoosite of what one would expect if he indeed is, but as i see now, might in fact be the best play for some people) and his soft derailing from O (see #2869).
So vote ashersky
I'm also still suspicious of theorel, who seems to only post substance when asked called out, but also tries to make posts where doesn't look like ones where he does (see #3014 and my response in #3019 for example). I think, at this point, I think it would be a good idea if theorel claimed. If he's in laim VT, taking fact scum, and doesn't have a townish ability, he'll either have to make one up and potentially be caught lying, or claiming VT, taking us from a group of 4 with one guy lying to a group of 4 with 2 lying or just Morgrim lying (which, as said, I think is unlikely)
My question was made in a vacuum, unrelated to the ambient discussion. It is about a description I read that I wanted help interpreting.
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@Cuzz: Robz' first scum-team was him and Galzria. The game included volt, jo, and insomniac as towns. Chances are if you got something referencing that game it was for one of the masons.
I skimmed the last couple days, and I'll vote: watno since he seems like the likeliest liar, and has the activity shoots up when suspected syndrome.
Do other people want me to claim, or is this just a watno thing...don't see any point claiming on scum-request.
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Theorel, please fullclaim immediately.
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From this I think we can potentially infere that since Watno was not part of the vanilla townie group that was referenced earlier, he is not a vanilla townie... I also think the word team here is interesting. Team as in faction? As in mafia faction? Potentially... Now... who in a mafia faction would not have a special role? A mafia goon perhaps?
So where did this come from?
To answer your question. When I first wrote this post I hadn't gone back and looked at Morgrim's post regarding VTs. From my memory I thought that all the slots for VTness had been filled (or at least claimed). But when I went back and checked I realized there was one still at large. You could have filled it, or Dsell could have filled it. Creating a 1 plus surplus. So you could be lying or any of the other players could be lying. I think you are the strongest case for lying.
Does that answer this for you? I had thought that my explanations and follow up posts would have clarified my position sufficiently, but it appears I was wrong.
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@Cuzz: Robz' first scum-team was him and Galzria. The game included volt, jo, and insomniac as towns. Chances are if you got something referencing that game it was for one of the masons.
I skimmed the last couple days, and I'll vote: watno since he seems like the likeliest liar, and has the activity shoots up when suspected syndrome.
Do other people want me to claim, or is this just a watno thing...don't see any point claiming on scum-request.
I believe this puts watno at L-1. And remember Watno is currently holding the wine and it cayvie does not yet appear to have put a vote down... although i still remain somewhat skeptical of that whole thing...
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actually unvote for now just to make sure all our bases are covered... don't want watno to come in and self hammer and force us into night phase too early.
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I get a real bad feeling from yuma. No quantifiable reason, I'll look into it sometime soon when I have freetime. But most definitely I am very suspicious of him.
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I get a real bad feeling from yuma. No quantifiable reason, I'll look into it sometime soon when I have freetime. But most definitely I am very suspicious of him.
nice completely vague and relatively worthless semi-accusation. What do you have to say about Watno?
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I see someone's near lynch so vote: cuzz while I piece together the case against watno.
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I see someone's near lynch so vote: cuzz while I piece together the case against watno.
thanks, vote: watno he is now at L-1... night all
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Vote Count 6.3
Watno (6) -- Insomniac, sparky5856, ashersky, ftl, theorel, yuma
ftl (1) -- Dsell
ashersky (1) -- Watno
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (4) -- Axxle, shraeye, Cuzz, Morgrim7
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Monday, November 19, at 6:00 PM EDT.
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Still suspicious of yuma.
Dsell, should I wait for theorel to claim?
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Still suspicious of yuma.
Dsell, should I wait for theorel to claim?
Before hammering? Yeah I'd prefer it.
I don't like that I asked the question 40 seconds after he posted and somehow he still didn't see it...
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Still suspicious of yuma.
Dsell, should I wait for theorel to claim?
My guess is he won't. Then tomorrow's discussion will be there.
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I'll probably wait until sometime tomorrow.
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Well, I am pretty sure that Watno is scum. I don't know if Theorel is scum but I really want him to claim. If he is scum, I'd rather him not have the night, although he has already had a lot of time after I posted that. Still, I'd kinda rather have it before the day ends.
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UNVOTE to backup Dsell.
Only skimmed the thread recently; today was a busy day. I had homework that was crazy, I was watching football that was crazy... just a crazy day.
lol @ shraeye, did you see my post where I reasoned that yuma was another conf-townie. We wanted to recruit him into our mason guild but failed; yuma being Hider explains it. His role also correlates to the description I received from him.
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how does a mining village relate to a lightning rod
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Okay, full-claim
I'm a 1-shot commuter.
My card is conspirator.
My description says something about slipping quietly through the night.
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I'm really confused about where scum is in this game with all of these townies running around. Willing to vote Watno though, almost by process of elimination, once we're ready to lynch. (Days are going by quick now aren't they?)
I also wonder what cayvie targeting me every night is doing but I'm still alive so I guess that's something.
What does a lightning rod do, anyway?
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I'm really confused about where scum is in this game with all of these townies running around. Willing to vote Watno though, almost by process of elimination, once we're ready to lynch. (Days are going by quick now aren't they?)
I also wonder what cayvie targeting me every night is doing but I'm still alive so I guess that's something.
What does a lightning rod do, anyway?
I'd say we're ready to lynch now, given Theo claimed as requested.
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lightning rod was Robz' role in Ozle's RMMM1. (you should read it, seriously)
Anyways it redirected all night or day-actions (including the lynch) to himself in a spectacular show which also obliterated the castle.
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UNVOTE to backup Dsell.
Only skimmed the thread recently; today was a busy day. I had homework that was crazy, I was watching football that was crazy... just a crazy day.
lol @ shraeye, did you see my post where I reasoned that yuma was another conf-townie. We wanted to recruit him into our mason guild but failed; yuma being Hider explains it. His role also correlates to the description I received from him.
No, i remember that. But I'm also confused how him hiding makes him conftown. Maybe I don't understand exactly how your mason group works. I don't need to know any details obviously, but I don't understand how yuma is conftown simply because you tried to recruit him.
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Vote: watno
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Is it worth waiting for Watno to pass the wine if we think he's scum anyway?
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Probably not.
If there's no objections I'll revote/hammer at approximately 5:47 PM EST.
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Is it worth waiting for Watno to pass the wine if we think he's scum anyway?
It depends. Considering how bad people have been interpreting descriptions it might actually be better to get it out of this game. However, i have passed it in on because I believe considering the bad position town is currently in, it will be have a tough time winning this without using all its possiblities in the best way possible.
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VOTE: Watno
True to my word.
And I wouldn't say town is in a bad position right now. It's about to get even better, hopefully.
No matter what Watno flips, think long about who the remaining scum is over the night everybody.
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THREAD LOCKED.
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Will give flip in a minute.
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Vote Count 6.4
Watno (7) -- Insomniac, sparky5856, ashersky, ftl, theorel, yuma, shraeye
ftl (1) -- Dsell
ashersky (1) -- Watno
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (3) -- Axxle, Cuzz, Morgrim7
Watno, the Scum-aligned Mafia Goon, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Send me your night actions by 6:00 PM EDT, Wednesday November 14th.
NIGHT 6 START
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[flavor]While scum were busy winning virtually every other mafia game, not so in the Courtyard Masquerade.
"Oh, it's not over yet?" groaned Dsell. "Okay, let's get on with this again..."[/flavor]
sparky5856, the Town-aligned Mason, has been killed.
A Dominion card was also found: a Nobles. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss), Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 6
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah, Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 5
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire), Scum-aligned Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 5
11. Axxle
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis)
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno, Scum-aligned Mafia Goon, lynched Day 6
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
O (Voltaire)'s Description: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Nobles, belonging to O (Voltaire) or jotheonah.
Watno's Description: "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Nobles, belonging to watno or sparky5856.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 7 START
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Vote Count 7.1
Not Voting (11) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Axxle, cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, yuma, theorel, Morgrim7, ashersky
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is Thursday, November 22, at 6:00 PM EDT.
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I honestly think that ftl or theorel should probably be our next lynches barring unforeseen events. We've hit 3 mafia and I'd say there are at most 5 in this game, that leaves max two remaining. And since our list of confirmed town is long, I think they are our best bets.
Who else is even left? ftl and Theorel are mostl likely scum to me...cuzz, morgrim, Shraeye, Ashersky, Sparky, Insom, and me are virtually certain town. Axxle and cayvie I'd say are quite likely town. Oh I'm forgetting yuma. Who is even more likely town than Axxle and cayvie, I think.
And that's everyone...
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Nobles was the Mason card, right?
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Nobles was the Mason card, right?
Yep.
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so for those keeping track of my not-so-serious theory that is becoming more and more serious as time progresses... Watno had never been scum before this game as well... So that is Grujah, Voltaire (O) and Watno...
Also I am not necessarily suspicious of Morgrim, but we need to remember that he isn't confirmed townie to anyone else, just to himself. It is very possible that he is scum and received the info that there were 3 mostly VT and 3 true VTs and then threw himself in as a fourth. I don't think that he did that, but he isn't confirmed by someone else in the way that the others are...
I agree that theorel and ftl are high on my suspicious list. I think it is interesting that mafia is killing off the masons as opposed to the other PRs that are out there....
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Vote: Morgrim
Where is he? I think he just outed us to make us targets.
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Vote: Morgrim
Where is he? I think he just outed us to make us targets.
Eh, I don't think that Morgrim is scum but it is possible for scum to have that information.
Morgrim, would you please tell us your card?
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Again the true vote counts for the mafia lynches (again I am not counting the lynch of O when it occurred, because he was obvscum at that point and we can't take anything from it.)
So for all of these I am going to detail out the votes as they occurred in real time, not just where the are listed in the final vote counts.
Grujah (Day 1)
Glooble, eevee, morgrim, Galzria, ehunt, yuma, galzria, ehal, cuzz, eevee, morgrim, ftl, jot, axxle
O (Day 4)
Cuzz, Morgrim, Axxle, YN, ehunt, ehunt, theorel, YN, ashersky, axxle, insomniac, ehunt
Watno (Day 5)
yuma, insomniac, sparky, ashersky, ftl, theorel, yuma, shraeye, sparky
I think Watno was on both the O and grujah wagon, but I didn't detect it because of the lack of a colon. He was actually right after my vote on Grujah and somewhere in the middle on O. This pretty early bussing of Grujah makes me kinda think that there was a veteran player on the team who said, if any of us get heat bus hard... Makes me wonder if there was more bussing going on... well obviously there was because thus far every player except for cayvie has voted for a confirmed mafia player. But I do have to say that ftl fits the bill for that slot. voting only when it has become apparent the scummate is going down.
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Everyone who is not in the nobles qt list the order you would have killed me no and sparky immediatley
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Everyone who is not in the nobles qt list the order you would have killed me no and sparky immediatley
What does this mean? I'm not in the QT, but I wouldn't kill anyone.
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Everyone who is not in the nobles qt list the order you would have killed me no and sparky immediatley
What does this mean? I'm not in the QT, but I wouldn't kill anyone.
Essentially he's asking you to put yourself in the position of mafia. If you were mafia, which order would you have chosen to kill Jo, Sparky, and Insomniac?
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Everyone who is not in the nobles qt list the order you would have killed me no and sparky immediatley
What does this mean? I'm not in the QT, but I wouldn't kill anyone.
Essentially he's asking you to put yourself in the position of mafia. If you were mafia, which order would you have chosen to kill Jo, Sparky, and Insomniac?
This.
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Everyone who is not in the nobles qt list the order you would have killed me no and sparky immediatley
What does this mean? I'm not in the QT, but I wouldn't kill anyone.
Essentially he's asking you to put yourself in the position of mafia. If you were mafia, which order would you have chosen to kill Jo, Sparky, and Insomniac?
This.
And what will this accomplish, really? FWIW, I guess I'd have gone with Insom first, then Jo, then Sparky, since I think mafia would take out most helpful to town first.
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Everyone who is not in the nobles qt list the order you would have killed me no and sparky immediatley
What does this mean? I'm not in the QT, but I wouldn't kill anyone.
Essentially he's asking you to put yourself in the position of mafia. If you were mafia, which order would you have chosen to kill Jo, Sparky, and Insomniac?
This.
And what will this accomplish, really? FWIW, I guess I'd have gone with Insom first, then Jo, then Sparky, since I think mafia would take out most helpful to town first.
I'll let you know what it accomplishes when its done
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That's kind of a crazy question, and I'm really not sure what you expect out of it...but, like ashersky, I would have killed you in order of helpfulness to town. I don't recall any contributions of note from either you or jo, so I would have killed sparky first, based on the idea that anyone I remember posting was probably more useful than people I don't remember posting.
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if i were mafia, i'd leave insomniac alive till the end because i feel like i can make insomniac sound crazy, even if he's right
so probably
jo > sparky > insomniac
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oh heck i'll plop down this vote: cuzz because it seems to be working out so far
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No idea. I haven't been paying enough attention, I don't remember anything about those people in this game... I guess jo>insomniac>sparky or something, just based on how experienced I think I remember them being.
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If I were scum: Insomniac first, then jot then sparky...
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Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
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Everyone who is not in the nobles qt list the order you would have killed me no and sparky immediatley
No real preference, all from the mason's group should be equally threatening. I'd probably be more scared of insom's ability to analyze things and find me. I'd be suspicious of joth because I recall him saying that he knew he had recruited only town, and I'm worried he has a way to tell who town is. I'd leave sparky for last, because it felt like he was the lacky and joth/insom were the guys with the plan.
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Vote: Morgrim
Where is he? I think he just outed us to make us targets.
This I don't understand. Morgrim outed the VTs to make us targets? How many of us have actually been targeted? Dsell, ashersky, shraeye. I can't remember any others. Galz was mostly VT and died, but was that pre-morgrim's claim? I can't remember. I can't remember who the others are either.
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I don't doubt that his numbers are right. Unless one of you or Ashersky is actually not VT (I assume you both are claiming VT?), then the number of VTs is exactly 4. And I don't know for sure, but no one else has claimed VT+. I'm still waiting for Morgrim's card claim, but I agree with what Insomniac is doing.
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Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
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Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
/frustrated post I shouldn't have made.
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Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
/frustrated post I shouldn't have made.
Yeah, but again, being in the QT doesn't confirm you as town and honestly it doesn't even get you much benefit at this point than you'd otherwise have (knowledge-wise. Nightchat is nice) so once the mafia gets the confirmed town out of the way, they won't necessarily go for the remaining neighborhood people.
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Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
/frustrated post I shouldn't have made.
Yeah, but again, being in the QT doesn't confirm you as town and honestly it doesn't even get you much benefit at this point than you'd otherwise have (knowledge-wise. Nightchat is nice) so once the mafia gets the confirmed town out of the way, they won't necessarily go for the remaining neighborhood people.
I also don't see why they aren't asking the question out of us anyway, since we aren't confirmed town.
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Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
/frustrated post I shouldn't have made.
Yeah, but again, being in the QT doesn't confirm you as town and honestly it doesn't even get you much benefit at this point than you'd otherwise have (knowledge-wise. Nightchat is nice) so once the mafia gets the confirmed town out of the way, they won't necessarily go for the remaining neighborhood people.
I also don't see why they aren't asking the question out of us anyway, since we aren't confirmed town.
Again a pointless post...
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Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
/frustrated post I shouldn't have made.
Yeah, but again, being in the QT doesn't confirm you as town and honestly it doesn't even get you much benefit at this point than you'd otherwise have (knowledge-wise. Nightchat is nice) so once the mafia gets the confirmed town out of the way, they won't necessarily go for the remaining neighborhood people.
I also don't see why they aren't asking the question out of us anyway, since we aren't confirmed town.
Again a pointless post...
Eh. Insom has his reasons, I'm quite sure. And I have a lot of hope that this game will work out for us as long as we don't COMPLETELY screw things up. Which is a good feeling since the last couple games I've been in have been way frustrating in one way or another.
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Haha nice trick trying to get me to tell you what I would do if I was scum, as none of you have seen me as scum yet. Eh, I'll tell you anyway. Wait a munite.
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*minute
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ok, sparks, then joth, then insomniac. Card claim: Shanty Town
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Just Cuzz now.
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Just Cuzz now.
Oops sorry. I guess joth then insom then sparky.
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Also I read a description last night. I think it's yuma's and I think it could refer to a scum player. The problem is that descriptions are vague and I have to read between the lines to get anything out of them AND I can't quote them so I can't really ask for direct help in interpreting them. I'll try to come up with a paraphrase that gets the idea across and run it by Robz to make sure it's within the rules to share it.
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Ok for reference.
1. Ftl -- Jo > Insom > Sparky
13. Cayvie -- Jo > Sparky > Insom (note this is what happened)
14. Shraeye -- Jo/Insom > Sparky
15. Cuzz -- Jo > Insom > Sparky
16. Yuma -- Insomniac > Jo > Sparky
17. theorel -- Sparky > Insom > Jo
19. Morgrim7 -- Sparky > Jo > Insom
25. ashersky -- Insom > Jo > Sparky
Lets total votes for last alive.
Sparky was last alive 5 times
Jo was last alive 1 time.
I was last alive 2 times.
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There is 11 people still alive, we have killed 3 Mafia and 2 SK? that means I suspect that there is 1 or 2 mafia alive tops.
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@Axxle. Why are you so frustrated I outted you. Have you read the whole QT yet?
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@Dsell as I'm fairly certain you HAVE read the whole QT you probably know what I'm getting at with these questions. Please keep quiet for now.
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@Dsell as I'm fairly certain you HAVE read the whole QT you probably know what I'm getting at with these questions. Please keep quiet for now.
Yep.
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@Dsell as I'm fairly certain you HAVE read the whole QT you probably know what I'm getting at with these questions. Please keep quiet for now.
What are you getting at anyway? Everyone has responded by now, yes?
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@Dsell as I'm fairly certain you HAVE read the whole QT you probably know what I'm getting at with these questions. Please keep quiet for now.
What are you getting at anyway? Everyone has responded by now, yes?
It'll come out when it needs to, people can keep talking about other things but I need to hear Axxle's reply.
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@Axxle. Why are you so frustrated I outted you. Have you read the whole QT yet?
I've finished reading through the QT, and I'm still confused. I was tired last night too, not really that annoyed today, just curious.
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Ok, so other things to talk about:
I got a description last night. It belongs to Axxle, shraeye, or yuma. The description basically says that someone is known for being a lurker. It then mentions that it could be to this person's benefit if no one paid much attention to them in this game. The first part leads me to think it's yuma's and the second part makes me think it could be a scum description.
Thoughts?
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@Axxle. Why are you so frustrated I outted you. Have you read the whole QT yet?
I've finished reading through the QT, and I'm still confused. I was tired last night too, not really that annoyed today, just curious.
I just noticed you haven't claimed to us in QT, would you mind doing so here?
This goes for everyone whom hasn't claimed please do so now so we can compile a list of claims.
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wait, what?
are we mass-claiming?
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Card: Baron
Role: Double voter (surprise)
Description: basically hinting that I've replaced into games that I've already been lynched in, and that people will listen to me now that I have two votes.
That's it I think.
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wait, what?
are we mass-claiming?
Yeah I think so. Right, Insom? I'm not super worried about it at this point.
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we need to determine an order to do so, then. random order is bad.
popcorn?
or have someone confirmed town choose an order?
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wait, what?
are we mass-claiming?
Yeah I think so. Right, Insom? I'm not super worried about it at this point.
Well I THINK it's right to massclaim here it might be best to wait one more day given the nature of what I AM.
we need to determine an order to do so, then. random order is bad.
popcorn?
or have someone confirmed town choose an order?
This is a reason to do it today.
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we need to determine an order to do so, then. random order is bad.
popcorn?
or have someone confirmed town choose an order?
Let's have Insomniac run it. That's what we did when he was confirmed town in BMV..................
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we need to determine an order to do so, then. random order is bad.
popcorn?
or have someone confirmed town choose an order?
Let's have Insomniac run it. That's what we did when he was confirmed town in BMV..................
+infinity
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It's true! But this isn't bastard mod. I could start because I think Insom backs up my towniness. Since we have at least a little info on most people, it's not really gonna be a huge deal.
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It's true! But this isn't bastard mod. I could start because I think Insom backs up my towniness. Since we have at least a little info on most people, it's not really gonna be a huge deal.
I do backup your towniness but isn't it best to start with scummy folk and let them be counterclaimed?
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It's true! But this isn't bastard mod. I could start because I think Insom backs up my towniness. Since we have at least a little info on most people, it's not really gonna be a huge deal.
I do backup your towniness but isn't it best to start with scummy folk and let them be counterclaimed?
yep.
i'm cool with you choosing an order, ins.
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Well then let's start with my number 1 scum read.
FTL Get in here.
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It's true! But this isn't bastard mod. I could start because I think Insom backs up my towniness. Since we have at least a little info on most people, it's not really gonna be a huge deal.
I do backup your towniness but isn't it best to start with scummy folk and let them be counterclaimed?
I just meant having me direct it, ie if you weren't around. But since you are, go for it. My claim is no secret anyway.
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1. Ftl
5. Insomniac - Nobles, Recruiting Masons
7. Dsell - not sure this claim is public
11. Axxle - Double Voter, Baron
13. Cayvie -
14. Shraeye - VT
15. Cuzz -
16. Yuma - Hider of some variety
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis) - 1 Shot Commuter (Conspirator)
19. Morgrim7 - Mostly VT (Great hall)
25. ashersky - VT
I think this is accurate so far.
If you have no claimed card Please do so now so that I can add that to the claims.
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I claimed steward as my card a while ago.
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i have not card claimed.
i have claimed a power role, and that i must vote my target.
-
My claim is indeed public.
Ftl has actually done some claiming already too, I'm not sure if you're trying to catch him up in a lie or just didn't realize that he's claimed.
-
do you want us to claim who we targeted while we're at it?
i'd recommend it
-
do you want us to claim who we targeted while we're at it?
i'd recommend it
Yes that should be part of it.
-
do you want us to claim who we targeted while we're at it?
i'd recommend it
I have targeted everyone I've voted for
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do you want us to claim who we targeted while we're at it?
i'd recommend it
I have targeted everyone I've voted for
I lol'd
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do you want us to claim who we targeted while we're at it?
i'd recommend it
I have targeted everyone I've voted for
me too, pretty much
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Also I read a description last night. I think it's yuma's and I think it could refer to a scum player. The problem is that descriptions are vague and I have to read between the lines to get anything out of them AND I can't quote them so I can't really ask for direct help in interpreting them. I'll try to come up with a paraphrase that gets the idea across and run it by Robz to make sure it's within the rules to share it.
If it has anything to do with lurking but not lurking, potentially not existing, others not noticing that I am around, then it is probably mine.
Well sparky (confirmed town) interpreted it as a town description:
Now THIS makes sense. FoS: Robz for probably laughing at us while we were complaining during the entirety of N5 why yuma hasn't shown up in the QT. What happened that night perfectly correlates to his description. He lurks even when he's active! And it's not entirely his fault; it's just a side effect of his role. I was skimming through the list of roles to determine what role his description could possibly correlate to. I already reasoned not-VT. Ninja? Hider? Redirector? yuma here confirms that it is indeed Hider. We recruited yuma N4... but the recruit failed because he was hiding; any action taken toward him would ultimately fail and crumble. I don't know how I successfully passed him the wine then... I guess wine-passing is a day-action so it's still valid.
So now that this confirms yuma as town (one more conf-townie O_o), I am inclined to believe him in #3229 above.
and watno (confirmed scum) interpreted it as mafia:
I do indeed have the wine, and I have to say I was quite confused in the beginning because I got a bit of a scum vibe from reading yuma's description, and was confused wether I had received another description than sparky, because he didn't seem to find it suspicious. This hider thing explains it though.
And as for descriptions being cryptic and hard to interpret, I think that the descriptions of scum thus far have been relatively easy to interpret.
Voltaire (O's) "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Watno's "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Grujah's "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Frisk's "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Munch's "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
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Well then let's start with my number 1 scum read.
FTL Get in here.
ftl already posted a full claim I believe:
role - 1-shot lightning rod
card - mining village
description - am I allowed to quote it? Something about being a longtime mafia player and thus giving me something special albeit wacky to do.
have taken no night actions
who is next?
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Cayvie is next
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Cayvie is next
finally my long forgotten fishing attempt is going to finally catch a fish (/joke)
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You can add Pawn to my VT on the list.
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alright.
I am, in fact, a Watcher. I must target the player I'm voting for at day's end.
My card is Wishing Well.
My description is about being perceptive and useful, and giving me another chance to play an investigative role--I think referring to the fact that scumRobz killed me off N1 in XIII when I was a Tracker.
I targeted:
N1: Young Nick
N2: ehunt
N3: Young Nick
N4: Cuzz (I was roleblocked this night)
N5: Cuzz
N6: Cuzz
I knew I was roleblocked because I had a conversation with Robz about whether I saw myself watching people. He gave me the result of "no result" N1 and 2, and I asked him if this meant I had been roleblocked--my role description says I get, as output, everyone who targeted my target--so I should get at minimum my own name back. He agreed, and amended my results from those two nights.
N4, I got no result.
This, btw, is why I was so certain that Frisk was telling the truth about being a tracker; he said something about whether "no result" meant he had been roleblocked or something, which jived with my experience.
N5 and 6, nobody targeted cuzz but me.
N3, O and Cuzz both targeted Young Nick, which is why I have been watching Cuzz ever since.
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I highly suspect that I was targeted by a mafia rolecop N3, and the scumteam have some form of code-word cryptography set up so that the rolecop can divulge their results during the day. Which is why O came out as having roleblocked Young Nick for, apparently, no reason.
-
I believe that cuzz should claim next.
-
I believe that cuzz should claim next.
Agree
-
I believe that cuzz should claim next.
Agree
Yay you're back. You can take the lead but I didn't see you online and figured we should try to catch people while they're online.
-
At this rate, we will be here for years...
This is the first post of day 4.
It has no real information in it.
Axxle posted it 30 seconds after the thread was opened.
I suspect that Axxle is a mafia rolecop and this is an encoded message telling his scumbuddies that I'm a watcher.
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I'm not sure what's going on in the QT; Axxle isn't confirmed town to those in it, right?
-
At this rate, we will be here for years...
This is the first post of day 4.
It has no real information in it.
Axxle posted it 30 seconds after the thread was opened.
I suspect that Axxle is a mafia rolecop and this is an encoded message telling his scumbuddies that I'm a watcher.
rolecop and double voter? He was a rolecop in M3... well he was supposed to be a cop... well someone else who he replaced was supposed to be a cop, but he ended up being a rolecop after insomniac made a mod error...
Like I said at the beginning of the game, a double voting potential scum player makes me very nervous if we get near lylo...
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I'm not sure what's going on in the QT; Axxle isn't confirmed town to those in it, right?
Correct.
-
Oh, and look at this, Axxle's first posts on day 5:
Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
Waiting on shraeye, cuzz and morgrim
Was there a point in outing players in the QT?
/frustrated post I shouldn't have made.
he makes a post, then immediately tells everyone he shouldn't have made it!
pretty sure this is him saying "whoops, scumbuddies, I made my first post of the day but forgot that I was supposed to encode my rolecop results in it"
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okay, yeah, he's a double voter. maybe i'm wrong.
-
man, such a sweet theory though, i'm gonna check previous days
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[flavor]After another night of nefariocity, you gathered in the courtyard to count the death toll. You were disappointed.
"At this rate, we will be here for years," Axxle whined.[/flavor]
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In response to this:
At this rate, we will be here for years...
This is the first post of day 4.
It has no real information in it.
Axxle posted it 30 seconds after the thread was opened.
I suspect that Axxle is a mafia rolecop and this is an encoded message telling his scumbuddies that I'm a watcher.
-
oh.
dammit.
-
That's actually really funny! ;D
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Oh, I thought shraeye was next on the list.
No matter: I'm a Description Cop. My card is Steward. I get the description of one of three people each night. I targeted a lot of people:
N1: cayvie*, Eevee, ehunt
N2: cayvie, shraeye, ashersky*
N3: YoungNick*, Axxle, sparky
N4: sparky*, Watno, Insomniac
N5: theorel, ftl*, Watno
N6: Axxle, shraeye, yuma*
The asterisk represents the person I think I got the description of. I'm reasonably certain of all of them except N2, which as I've discussed, could have been either ashersky or shraeye.
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Oh, I thought shraeye was next on the list.
No matter: I'm a Description Cop. My card is Steward. I get the description of one of three people each night. I targeted a lot of people:
N1: cayvie*, Eevee, ehunt
N2: cayvie, shraeye, ashersky*
N3: YoungNick*, Axxle, sparky
N4: sparky*, Watno, Insomniac
N5: theorel, ftl*, Watno
N6: Axxle, shraeye, yuma*
The asterisk represents the person I think I got the description of. I'm reasonably certain of all of them except N2, which as I've discussed, could have been either ashersky or shraeye.
would you fill comfortable paraphrasing them? Probably ask Robz first if the paraphrases are acceptable...
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I think I've posted most of them at one point or another, and haven't been modkilled yet so I'll go back and collect them all when I get a chance later today.
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Vote Count 7.2
Morgrim7 (1) -- ashersky
Cuzz (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (9) -- ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Axxle, Cuzz, shraeye, yuma, theorel, Morgrim7
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is Thursday, November 22, at 6:00 PM EDT.
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1. Ftl - One shot lightning rod, Mining Village
5. Insomniac - Nobles, Recruiting Masons
7. Dsell - VT, pawn
11. Axxle - Double Voter, Baron
13. Cayvie - Watcher, Wishing Well
14. Shraeye - VT
15. Cuzz - Description copish, Steward
16. Yuma - Hider of some variety
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis) - 1 Shot Commuter (Conspirator)
19. Morgrim7 - Mostly VT (Great hall)
25. ashersky - VT, pawn
I think this is accurate so far.
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It seems we have everyone's claims, Shraeye what is your card. Yuma you as well.
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I'd actually like a more specific claim from yuma, he has given extremely few specifics about his role.
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I'd actually like a more specific claim from yuma, he has given extremely few specifics about his role.
Lets do this too, once all that is done I will explain the answer to the question earlier since I am no longer the likely night kill.
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I'd actually like a more specific claim from yuma, he has given extremely few specifics about his role.
I am a hider. Man guys... Right now I am left with the choice of either outing my role to the advantage of scum, or trying to figure out a way to lie about my role so that scum can't take advantage of it. As a townie I can't risk lying. Lying is never protown. So I am going to just tell it as it is.
I am a lurking hider. I hide on days that I receive no votes for me. So in this game I received votes on me yesterday and the first day. Every other day I have hidden. I have no choice about the matter. This is why I was able to guarantee to Insomniac that I would not hide last night--because he had posted a vote on me.
actually now that I have written that out, I see that it might be more advantageous for me to explain it in detail. Because someone who does decide to vote for me... must be scum who wants the opportunity to night kill me.... Although, from your guy's perspective you don't know that... Hmmm I guess you could interpret this as a ploy to prevent votes from ever coming onto me and then subsequently vote me because of it. But that is a risk that as town I will have to take. Lying as town is not good, so I'll stick to the truth.
My card is secret chamber
(You will also note a post I made a while back in reference to cayvie's voting her most townie read wherein I stated that I really wouldn't want her to vote me as he most townie read. This is because I didn't want her to vote for me as a "town read" and cause me to lose my hiding ability that night.)
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My card is Pawn.
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I'd actually like a more specific claim from yuma, he has given extremely few specifics about his role.
Lets do this too, once all that is done I will explain the answer to the question earlier since I am no longer the likely night kill.
edge of my seat here (http://spamusement.com/index.php/comics/view/297)
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All right so here is why I asked you all the order you would kill me. Most of you agreed that I should be one of the first to go.
If you had access to the QT you will see that I was not JUST a Noble I was in fact (and still am) Hated. It takes L-1 to lynch me. Now the only people alive that still knew that when deciding which order to kill us was, DSell and Axxle. We had eHal who voiched for DSell being a pawn and I've had my moments of thinking of both of these players as town.
However me being the last alive made me wonder if either Dsell or Axxle is scum. If I had to pick one it would be Axxle. And I'm sorry that if it ever gets down to one before LyLo you will have to kill me as I am negative utility
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Now the one point on Axxles side is that he was recruited the night Jo died, meaning that they chose jo over me and sparky, and then given the knowledge they chose sparky over me I don't find this to be at all unreasonable.
Additionally given a hated player a double voter seems extremely strong for scum, but with a town this large scum probably needed quite the power up.
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Ah, right. I remember one of you mentioning you were hated, but I didn't really pay attention who.
Yuma: why haven't you claimed who you've hidden behind each night?
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Ah, right. I remember one of you mentioning you were hated, but I didn't really pay attention who.
Yuma: why haven't you claimed who you've hidden behind each night?
I don't hide behind anyone...
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Ah, right. I remember one of you mentioning you were hated, but I didn't really pay attention who.
Yuma: why haven't you claimed who you've hidden behind each night?
I don't hide behind anyone...
So you're more like a commuter, according to mafiascum standard rolesk, I thin. Although, I think when Robz was scum in MVI, his commuting option (he was a JOAT) was called "hiding" too.
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Ah, right. I remember one of you mentioning you were hated, but I didn't really pay attention who.
Yuma: why haven't you claimed who you've hidden behind each night?
I don't hide behind anyone...
So you're more like a commuter, according to mafiascum standard rolesk, I thin. Although, I think when Robz was scum in MVI, his commuting option (he was a JOAT) was called "hiding" too.
sure, I guess so.... but my name is hider and each night I get a PM letting me know whether or not I am hiding that night...
didn't theorel claim 1-shot commuter? If I am effectively a commuter, would we have two commuters? That seems kinda odd. If that is true, I think I will lean toward a theorel vote (theorel and ftl were my two top scum reads at the start of today)
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I do not like having both a hider and a commuter in the game, I said as much in the QT. I like it even less that they're the same effective role but differently named.
Vote: Theorel
For you Galz! (From the QT "Be wary of Theorel" -Galz)
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Ah, right. I remember one of you mentioning you were hated, but I didn't really pay attention who.
Yuma: why haven't you claimed who you've hidden behind each night?
I don't hide behind anyone...
So you're more like a commuter, according to mafiascum standard rolesk, I thin. Although, I think when Robz was scum in MVI, his commuting option (he was a JOAT) was called "hiding" too.
sure, I guess so.... but my name is hider and each night I get a PM letting me know whether or not I am hiding that night...
didn't theorel claim 1-shot commuter? If I am effectively a commuter, would we have two commuters? That seems kinda odd. If that is true, I think I will lean toward a theorel vote (theorel and ftl were my two top scum reads at the start of today)
Yeah that's unlikely...Vote: Theorel
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agreed and at this point I strongly believe Yuma is town Vote: theorel
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I do not like having both a hider and a commuter in the game, I said as much in the QT. I like it even less that they're the same effective role but differently named.
Vote: Theorel
For you Galz! (From the QT "Be wary of Theorel" -Galz)
let's do this vote: theorel
-
There are STILL 11 people alive. What is this game I don't even...
-
Anyway, L-2 I think.
-
There are STILL 11 people alive. What is this game I don't even...
would love to finish this game before thanksgiving... think we can do it?
-
L-1. Axxle is a double voter
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There are STILL 11 people alive. What is this game I don't even...
would love to finish this game before thanksgiving... think we can do it?
No.
-
L-1. Axxle is a double voter
Oh yeah that's right. Any last business that needs attending to?
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I do not like having both a hider and a commuter in the game, I said as much in the QT. I like it even less that they're the same effective role but differently named.
Vote: Theorel
For you Galz! (From the QT "Be wary of Theorel" -Galz)
do dead players still have access to the QT? Or was that something he said before dying?
-
He said it before dying days and days ago
-
L-1. Axxle is a double voter
Oh yeah that's right. Any last business that needs attending to?
i suppose we could let him have some last words...
-
L-1. Axxle is a double voter
Oh yeah that's right. Any last business that needs attending to?
i suppose we could let him have some last words...
I guess. It could be a while though, and this game already takes foreeever.
-
L-1. Axxle is a double voter
Oh yeah that's right. Any last business that needs attending to?
i suppose we could let him have some last words...
I guess. It could be a while though, and this game already takes foreeever.
certainly not mandatory
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L-1. Axxle is a double voter
Oh yeah that's right. Any last business that needs attending to?
i suppose we could let him have some last words...
I guess. It could be a while though, and this game already takes foreeever.
certainly not mandatory
I don't care either way. I'm not unvoting.
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i think i'm still leaving my vote on cuzz.
i could put it on insomniac, as the only confirmed townie left, but i feel that, as hated, he's unlikely to die at night.
i could put it on axxle, but i kinda still think he might be scum.
cuzz could still be useful, i'm leaving it there.
tbh, i'm probably dying tonight.
if i do, i really think my theory about a rolecop makes sense and is worth looking into.
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Vote Count 7.2
Morgrim7 (1): ashersky
Cuzz (1): cayvie
theorel (5): Axxle, Dsell, Insomniac, yuma
Not Voting (5) -- ftl, shraeye, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is Thursday, November 22, at 6:00 PM EDT.
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I can hammer. Two of the same role with different names? No way.
Vote: Theorel
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I can hammer. Two of the same role with different names? No way.
Vote: Theorel
Wee. Let's get the flip and get this baby into night.
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THREAD LOCKED.
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Vote Count 7.3
Cuzz (1): cayvie
theorel (6): Axxle, Dsell, Insomniac, yuma, ashersky
Not Voting (5) -- ftl, shraeye, Cuzz, theorel, Morgrim7
theorel, the Scum-aligned Mafia 1-shot Ninja, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "Who is this unknown shadow slipping silently through the night?"
Send in your night actions by 7:30 PM EST, Sunday November 18th, or whatever other deadline Robz may impose.
NIGHT 7 START
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[flavor]"Despair, despair for our loss is virtually guranteed," said the ghosts of scums' past.[/flavor]
No one died last night.
A Dominion card was also found: a Conspirator. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss), Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 6
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah, Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 5
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire), Scum-aligned Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 5
11. Axxle
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis), Scum-aligned Mafia One-Shot Ninja, lynched Day 7
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno, Scum-aligned Mafia Goon, lynched Day 6
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
O (Voltaire)'s Description: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Nobles, belonging to O (Voltaire) or jotheonah.
Watno's Description: "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Nobles, belonging to watno or sparky5856.
Theorel (ibgtennis)'s Description: "Who is this unknown shadow slipping silenty through the night?"
Conspirator, belonging to Theorel (ibgtennis).
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 8 START
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Vote Count 8.1
Not Voting (10) -- Ftl, Insomniac, Dsell, Axxle, cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, yuma, Morgrim7, ashersky
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 27, at 6:00 PM EDT.
-
How is this even possible? Did scum try to target Yuma or something?
Anyway, we nobles have devised a plan for how to proceed. Open to suggestions, though, I guess, or if anyone has any interesting results they want to share?
There are ten of us and probably only 1 scum left, maaaaaaybe two.
-
How is this even possible? Did scum try to target Yuma or something?
Anyway, we nobles have devised a plan for how to proceed. Open to suggestions, though, I guess, or if anyone has any interesting results they want to share?
There are ten of us and probably only 1 scum left, maaaaaaybe two.
yeah... weird... I hid. So they could have tried to target me. Or else something else weird is going on... Or perhaps they just didn't care anymore?
-
Or perhaps they just didn't care anymore?
This actually does seem possible, given how this game's going.
-
How is this even possible? Did scum try to target Yuma or something?
Anyway, we nobles have devised a plan for how to proceed. Open to suggestions, though, I guess, or if anyone has any interesting results they want to share?
There are ten of us and probably only 1 scum left, maaaaaaybe two.
The plan won't work because the no kill happened.
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Axxle, I almost posted the plan! Good catch.
Morgrim claimed VT+. ehunt and Galzria both were VT+ and they both had Great Hall for their card. Morgrim claimed Shanty Town. He could have information about the number of VTs and VT+es even as scum. This also makes sense because Morgrim has seemed absent the last couple days, so it's possible he didn't send in a kill (this also could support the idea that he's the last scum).
Wee. Vote: Morgrim
(If he turns out to be scum, our top 2 D1 wagons will have BOTH been on scum which is craaazy)
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Axxle, I almost posted the plan! Good catch.
Morgrim claimed VT+. ehunt and Galzria both were VT+ and they both had Great Hall for their card. Morgrim claimed Shanty Town. He could have information about the number of VTs and VT+es even as scum. This also makes sense because Morgrim has seemed absent the last couple days, so it's possible he didn't send in a kill (this also could support the idea that he's the last scum).
Wee. Vote: Morgrim
(If he turns out to be scum, our top 2 D1 wagons will have BOTH been on scum which is craaazy)
this would also fit my theory of all scum being players who were never scum before... and you guys thought I was crazy...
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He was last active:
Last Active: November 17, 2012, 11:57:07 pm
Mountain Time
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He was last active:
Last Active: November 17, 2012, 11:57:07 pm
Mountain Time
Hehe not mountain time anymore! Japan time, I believe.
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He was last active:
Last Active: November 17, 2012, 11:57:07 pm
Mountain Time
Hehe not mountain time anymore! Japan time, I believe.
No, I mean Mountain time is my time...
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He was last active:
Last Active: November 17, 2012, 11:57:07 pm
Mountain Time
Hehe not mountain time anymore! Japan time, I believe.
No, I mean Mountain time is my time...
Ohohoho I see. That makes sense.
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Also, I remember making a case on Morgrim Day1. Catching a lot of flak as well for trying to start a morgrim wagon close to the deadline.
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Axxle, I almost posted the plan! Good catch.
Morgrim claimed VT+. ehunt and Galzria both were VT+ and they both had Great Hall for their card. Morgrim claimed Shanty Town. He could have information about the number of VTs and VT+es even as scum. This also makes sense because Morgrim has seemed absent the last couple days, so it's possible he didn't send in a kill (this also could support the idea that he's the last scum).
Wee. Vote: Morgrim
(If he turns out to be scum, our top 2 D1 wagons will have BOTH been on scum which is craaazy)
vote: Morgrim
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Axxle, I almost posted the plan! Good catch.
Morgrim claimed VT+. ehunt and Galzria both were VT+ and they both had Great Hall for their card. Morgrim claimed Shanty Town. He could have information about the number of VTs and VT+es even as scum. This also makes sense because Morgrim has seemed absent the last couple days, so it's possible he didn't send in a kill (this also could support the idea that he's the last scum).
Wee. Vote: Morgrim
(If he turns out to be scum, our top 2 D1 wagons will have BOTH been on scum which is craaazy)
vote: Morgrim
Vote: Morgrim
Let's win this game!
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That's L-3 on Morgrim, FWIW.
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Vote Count 8.2
Morgrim7 (3) -- Dsell, yuma, ashersky {L-3}
Not Voting (7) -- Ftl, Insomniac, Axxle, cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, Morgrim7
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is Tuesday, November 27, at 6:00 PM EDT.
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continuation vote: cuzz
though tbh, my power is mostly useless now that i've claimed it
probably willing to switch to normal voting.
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Actually the plan will still work somewhat
@cayvie: move your vote to theorel
@theorel: use your lightning rod shot tonight
@Cuzz: use your ability to investigate anyone but theorel
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Axxle means ftl when he says theorel.
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Axxle means ftl when he says theorel.
All lurkers are the same by the transitive property.
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Actually the plan will still work somewhat
@cayvie: move your vote to theorel
@theorel: use your lightning rod shot tonight
@Cuzz: use your ability to investigate anyone but theorel
and do we still lynch Morgrim? Or no lynch?
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Actually the plan will still work somewhat
@cayvie: move your vote to theorel
@theorel: use your lightning rod shot tonight
@Cuzz: use your ability to investigate anyone but theorel
and do we still lynch Morgrim? Or no lynch?
We lynch Morgrim and hope that's game over right there. If not we do this other stuff.
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sure, vote: theorel
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sure, vote: theorel
FTL :)
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sure, vote: theorel
;D
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Just caught up hadn't watched my own QT for some silly reason, I fully support Axxle/Dsells plan
Vote: Morgrim7
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unvote, vote cuzz
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you guys are freaking me out here
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unvote, vote cuzz
Hmm? No we just mean that Axxle misspoke and said theorel when he meant ftl. We lynched theorel yesterday. You should vote for and thus target ftl.
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So this is basically since ftl is practically the only one not believed to be town at this point?
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oh yeah ok
vote: ftl
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So this is basically since ftl is practically the only one not believed to be town at this point?
Well, morgrim has his issues too. But yeah, it's ftl or morgrim most likely.
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Vote: Morgrim
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Is that the hammer? We're truckin along here. Maybe this'll end it.
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That is the hammer.
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That is the hammer.
poor morgrim, couldn't even hammer himself...
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ok I'll lightning rod tonight
vote: morgrim in case you all miscounted
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THREAD LOCKED
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Vote Count 8.3
Morgrim7 (6) -- Dsell, yuma, ashersky, Insomniac, Axxle
ftl (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (4) -- Ftl, shraeye, Cuzz, Morgrim7
Morgrim7, the Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slightly Better, Vanilla Townie, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynches the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Send me your night actions by 3:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, November 21.
NIGHT 8 START
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[flavor]Another mislynch, but there was no reason to panic yet. Not at this rate.[/flavor]
No one died last night.
A Dominion card was also found: a Shanty Town. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss), Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 6
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah, Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 5
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire), Scum-aligned Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 5
11. Axxle
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis), Scum-aligned Mafia One-Shot Ninja, lynched Day 7
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7, Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slight Better Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 8
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno, Scum-aligned Mafia Goon, lynched Day 6
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
O (Voltaire)'s Description: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Nobles, belonging to O (Voltaire) or jotheonah.
Watno's Description: "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Nobles, belonging to watno or sparky5856.
Theorel (ibgtennis)'s Description: "Who is this unknown shadow slipping silenty through the night?"
Conspirator, belonging to Theorel (ibgtennis).
Morgrim7's Description: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynchs the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Shanty Town, belonging to Morgrim7.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 9 START
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Vote: Ftl Unless someone wants to confess here.
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Vote Count 9.1
ftl (1) -- Insomniac
Not Voting (8) -- ftl, Dsell, Axxle, cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, yuma, ashersky
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Oh hey I'm in a nobles QT
that's all that I know of things that targeted me last night
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Wait; why did the lynch of Morgrim go wrong? I thought that we were certain he was scum? Or are we just super lynch-happy now?
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Each night I send Robz three names, and get back one of their descriptions. My result told me that I targeted ftl 3 times last night. So looks like the lightning rod worked. His description doesn't sound too scummy. Just something about having a strange power.
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Unvote
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I think I've gotten everyones description except insomniac, dsell, and axxle. None of the ones i have jump out at me as being obvscum in the way that watno, theorel, and munch were.
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FTL can you confirm who we actually tried to vote in last night?
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shraeye
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Ok lightning Rod ISNT scummy and you definetly lightning rod'd
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Can someone put together an obvtown list from Morgrim's information and claims?
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Can someone put together an obvtown list from Morgrim's information and claims?
Myself, Shraeye, and Ashersky are all confirmed town from Morgrim. Insom is confirmed town from Nobles QT.
ftl is definitely lightningrod so near-confirmed town from that.
Cuzz is a description-cop, which seems pretty townie, and he was able to confirm early on that one of Shraeye/Asher was a VT.
Axxle has seemed pretty townie in the way he's voted and I don't see him failing to kill because he was pretty active in the Nobles QT.
Yuma kinda got the Grujah wagon going, it would be weird for scum to be faking a commuter and a hider claim when they were both the same.
Cayvie has just always seemed townie and her claim as a watcher seems legit enough...Cuzz, does her description confirm that she has to target the person she was voting? Or anything like that?
That's everyone, so I'm a tad stumped. The mafia IS one of the power roles, though.
@Shraeye, we are pretty lynch happy. The problem was that his card wasn't Great Hall like the other VT+ cards were. Oh well.
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Can someone put together an obvtown list from Morgrim's information and claims?
Myself, Shraeye, and Ashersky are all confirmed town from Morgrim. Insom is confirmed town from Nobles QT.
ftl is definitely lightningrod so near-confirmed town from that.
Cuzz is a description-cop, which seems pretty townie, and he was able to confirm early on that one of Shraeye/Asher was a VT.
Axxle has seemed pretty townie in the way he's voted and I don't see him failing to kill because he was pretty active in the Nobles QT.
Yuma kinda got the Grujah wagon going, it would be weird for scum to be faking a commuter and a hider claim when they were both the same.
Cayvie has just always seemed townie and her claim as a watcher seems legit enough...Cuzz, does her description confirm that she has to target the person she was voting? Or anything like that?
That's everyone, so I'm a tad stumped. The mafia IS one of the power roles, though.
@Shraeye, we are pretty lynch happy. The problem was that his card wasn't Great Hall like the other VT+ cards were. Oh well.
This leaves you, doesn't it?
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Can someone put together an obvtown list from Morgrim's information and claims?
Myself, Shraeye, and Ashersky are all confirmed town from Morgrim. Insom is confirmed town from Nobles QT.
ftl is definitely lightningrod so near-confirmed town from that.
Cuzz is a description-cop, which seems pretty townie, and he was able to confirm early on that one of Shraeye/Asher was a VT.
Axxle has seemed pretty townie in the way he's voted and I don't see him failing to kill because he was pretty active in the Nobles QT.
Yuma kinda got the Grujah wagon going, it would be weird for scum to be faking a commuter and a hider claim when they were both the same.
Cayvie has just always seemed townie and her claim as a watcher seems legit enough...Cuzz, does her description confirm that she has to target the person she was voting? Or anything like that?
That's everyone, so I'm a tad stumped. The mafia IS one of the power roles, though.
@Shraeye, we are pretty lynch happy. The problem was that his card wasn't Great Hall like the other VT+ cards were. Oh well.
This leaves you, doesn't it?
He is conf town by Morgrim.
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and eHal
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Can someone put together an obvtown list from Morgrim's information and claims?
Myself, Shraeye, and Ashersky are all confirmed town from Morgrim. Insom is confirmed town from Nobles QT.
ftl is definitely lightningrod so near-confirmed town from that.
Cuzz is a description-cop, which seems pretty townie, and he was able to confirm early on that one of Shraeye/Asher was a VT.
Axxle has seemed pretty townie in the way he's voted and I don't see him failing to kill because he was pretty active in the Nobles QT.
Yuma kinda got the Grujah wagon going, it would be weird for scum to be faking a commuter and a hider claim when they were both the same.
Cayvie has just always seemed townie and her claim as a watcher seems legit enough...Cuzz, does her description confirm that she has to target the person she was voting? Or anything like that?
That's everyone, so I'm a tad stumped. The mafia IS one of the power roles, though.
@Shraeye, we are pretty lynch happy. The problem was that his card wasn't Great Hall like the other VT+ cards were. Oh well.
This leaves you, doesn't it?
Wait, nvm, you are in the same boat as me.
PPE ninjaed.
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So basically scum is either cayvie or Axxle... or we are dealing with something really weird.
so i guess I'll plop a vote down on cayvie vote: cayvie. I have not understood how she is still alive when she is supposedly a power role, and well her power role is pretty bizarre as well. It is not verifiable in the way that ftl's was or Axxle's doublevote was. I also found her accusation of Axxle being a rolecop yesterday to be interesting.
Also I don't think she has been mafia before (so it fits nicely into my conspiracy theory, but really that has nothing to do with my vote)
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So basically scum is either cayvie or Axxle... or we are dealing with something really weird.
so i guess I'll plop a vote down on cayvie vote: cayvie. I have not understood how she is still alive when she is supposedly a power role, and well her power role is pretty bizarre as well. It is not verifiable in the way that ftl's was or Axxle's doublevote was. I also found her accusation of Axxle being a rolecop yesterday to be interesting.
Also I don't think she has been mafia before (so it fits nicely into my conspiracy theory, but really that has nothing to do with my vote)
I'll sheep Yuma. Vote: Cayvie.
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hey, evidence for my watcher claim: I claimed before cuzz in the massclaim, and knew that he targeted Young Nick night 3.
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also, i got a result last night that it a little confusing
it said that Cayvie and Cuzz are the only people who targeted ftl.
does you guys's mason recruitment not target? or maybe it doesn't count as a person since it's from a group?
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hey, evidence for my watcher claim: I claimed before cuzz in the massclaim, and knew that he targeted Young Nick night 3.
do you follow the logic of it is likely either you or axxle from my perspective--unless something really weird is going on--but either me or axxle from your perspective? Or do you it a different way.
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yes, that's where i am.
i trust that i'm not getting completely played by some mason conspiracy, as i just don't think there are that many scum left
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Vote Count 9.2
cayvie (2) -- yuma, ashersky
Not Voting (7) -- ftl, Dsell, Axxle, cayvie, shraeye, Cuzz, Insomniac
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Cayvie jo and sparky are dead and shown to be town so obv i have to be as well as they backed me up
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Cayvie jo and sparky are dead and shown to be town so obv i have to be as well as they backed me up
yes.
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i guess i can't be 100% okay with my lynching, since there are still 3 alive unconfirmed town.
axxle's claimed role has been demonstrated to be true: his vote counts twice.
my claim has evidence behind it: i knew cuzz targeted young nick night 3.
does yuma's hider claim have any evidence?
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unvote
so I just need to make sure all my bases are covered... I too am very worried that I am getting played by a potential cult or something.... something is just really screwy right now.
It might explain why there are no more night kills... there isn't any more mafia around... and why insomniac said they were so sure that the players they had recruited were town (as most of the time cults can't recruit mafia)...
And yes I do understand that jot and sparky verified that insomniac was town, but is it possible that they would lie to help their wincon? And do cult members when they die get listed as the role they received initially? Or do they get rid of it and die as cult members?
There are 9 alive and how many are currently in this neighborhood (Axxle, Dsell, Insomniac) anyone else in there?
I just don't know....... It certainly is keeping me up at night.
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i guess i can't be 100% okay with my lynching, since there are still 3 alive unconfirmed town.
axxle's claimed role has been demonstrated to be true: his vote counts twice.
my claim has evidence behind it: i knew cuzz targeted young nick night 3.
does yuma's hider claim have any evidence?
the only evidence is that I wasn't able to be recruited whatever night it was that insomniac tried to recruit me.
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i guess i can't be 100% okay with my lynching, since there are still 3 alive unconfirmed town.
axxle's claimed role has been demonstrated to be true: his vote counts twice.
my claim has evidence behind it: i knew cuzz targeted young nick night 3.
does yuma's hider claim have any evidence?
the only evidence is that I wasn't able to be recruited whatever night it was that insomniac tried to recruit me.
allegedly
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can't insomniac verify that
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They tried. We don't know if it failed, just that yuma never posted in it.
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Cayvie and yuma's descriptions match their claim, and don't really have evidence of being scum in them (I thought yuma's might have sounded scummy but that part is explained by his hiding condition of having no votes on him). Recall that Jo and sparky flipped mason, not cult so there really is or was a true mason group.
Insomniac: what makes you so sure Axxle is town?
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Cayvie and yuma's descriptions match their claim, and don't really have evidence of being scum in them (I thought yuma's might have sounded scummy but that part is explained by his hiding condition of having no votes on him). Recall that Jo and sparky flipped mason, not cult so there really is or was a true mason group.
Insomniac: what makes you so sure Axxle is town?
Never said I was. Points to his townieness are 1)If myself and him are alive at Mylo/Lylo he just wins (he is effectively 3 votes on me) 2) He has been pretty pro town this game.
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Yes, I know jot and sparky flipped mason, but still something weird is going on.
Especially the no night kill. I don't have an answer for that. It isn't a good strategy for scum, and I think we deduced that it wasn't due to people missing the kill deadline. So I think that leaves 1. something I am not thinking of 2. scum not killing to make us think that scum is dead and only cult is left or 3. scum is dead and only cult is left.
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So basically scum is either cayvie or Axxle... or we are dealing with something really weird.
and I guess I should throw Cuzz in here as well, in that he isn't a "confirmed townie." But certainly appears to have more of a townie role.
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Yes, I know jot and sparky flipped mason, but still something weird is going on.
Especially the no night kill. I don't have an answer for that. It isn't a good strategy for scum, and I think we deduced that it wasn't due to people missing the kill deadline. So I think that leaves 1. something I am not thinking of 2. scum not killing to make us think that scum is dead and only cult is left or 3. scum is dead and only cult is left.
Not only did they flip town they told you I was town.
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Yes, I know jot and sparky flipped mason, but still something weird is going on.
Especially the no night kill. I don't have an answer for that. It isn't a good strategy for scum, and I think we deduced that it wasn't due to people missing the kill deadline. So I think that leaves 1. something I am not thinking of 2. scum not killing to make us think that scum is dead and only cult is left or 3. scum is dead and only cult is left.
Not only did they flip town they told you I was town.
Yes, I know that too... Look I am not saying that I think you are cult, in all probability you aren't. But like I said, I want to cover my bases.
Who all is currently alive in your quicktopic? I know you, dsell, axxle and now ftl (I know that myself and shraeye aren't)
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That is the entirety of it. Myself, Dsell, Axxle and Ftl
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They no killed last night otherwise cayvie would have seen the killer.
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cayvie was watching cuzz, right? But then the redirect to ftl because of the lightning rod? and ftl definitely did the lightning rod, which has been verified by two others I believe.
Are you suggesting that ftl is mafia?
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They tried. We don't know if it failed, just that yuma never posted in it.
ohhh i see
vote: yuma
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They tried. We don't know if it failed, just that yuma never posted in it.
ohhh i see
vote: yuma
How many people left on your scum team?
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i'm not scum, insomniac
do you think i'm a scum watcher, or what?
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in order to believe i'm scum, you also have to believe
i built and pushed a case on my buddy O, who was basically under no suspicion at the time
despite knowing cuzz had a targeting night power, i left him alive, watching him every night.
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other thoughts
if axxle is scum, he is the only scum left. otherwise, he and his buddy could lynch insomniac and win.
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in order to believe i'm scum, you also have to believe
i built and pushed a case on my buddy O, who was basically under no suspicion at the time
despite knowing cuzz had a targeting night power, i left him alive, watching him every night.
You voted for yuma, which negates his hiding tonight.
In order for me to believe yuma is scum I have to believe that he pushed cases on Grujah, O, and Theorel
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so you think i'm a scum watcher?
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also, from my perspective, yuma's hiding is immaterial at this point.
either yuma or axxle is scum.
if yuma is scum, then obv voting him is good
if axxle is scum, and axxle survives today, he wins no matter what by lynching hated insomniac tomorrow.
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I'm not sure Cayvie, aside from outting O do we have any concrete evidence your a watcher? And why would you vote yuma without some town consensus
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if axxle is scum, and axxle survives today, he wins no matter what by lynching hated insomniac tomorrow.
Then isn't Axxle the obv choice today?
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I'm not sure Cayvie, aside from outting O do we have any concrete evidence your a watcher? And why would you vote yuma without some town consensus
i saw cuzz target young nick night 3
this is in my role claim
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if axxle is scum, and axxle survives today, he wins no matter what by lynching hated insomniac tomorrow.
Then isn't Axxle the obv choice today?
you may be right
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alright.
I am, in fact, a Watcher. I must target the player I'm voting for at day's end.
My card is Wishing Well.
My description is about being perceptive and useful, and giving me another chance to play an investigative role--I think referring to the fact that scumRobz killed me off N1 in XIII when I was a Tracker.
I targeted:
N1: Young Nick
N2: ehunt
N3: Young Nick
N4: Cuzz (I was roleblocked this night)
N5: Cuzz
N6: Cuzz
I knew I was roleblocked because I had a conversation with Robz about whether I saw myself watching people. He gave me the result of "no result" N1 and 2, and I asked him if this meant I had been roleblocked--my role description says I get, as output, everyone who targeted my target--so I should get at minimum my own name back. He agreed, and amended my results from those two nights.
N4, I got no result.
This, btw, is why I was so certain that Frisk was telling the truth about being a tracker; he said something about whether "no result" meant he had been roleblocked or something, which jived with my experience.
N5 and 6, nobody targeted cuzz but me.
N3, O and Cuzz both targeted Young Nick, which is why I have been watching Cuzz ever since.
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unvote
yeah ok now i'm scared of axxle
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insomniac, how does your mason recruitment work?
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insomniac, how does your mason recruitment work?
Each night all recruited parties can submit a vote for whom is recruited, if a majourity is reached we recruit that person. In the morning they get the QT, and they can talk to us the following night. We could have unlocked daychat but we couldn't figure out who unlocked it for us.
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surely eevee unlocked daychat for you; he claimed special recruitment powers d1.
okay, so there's not an individual player who targets anyone--i'm trying to figure out why i didn't see you guys recruit ftl last night, and that kind of makes sense
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I agree Im dangerous as scum. I'm town though, double voting scum would be too obviously overpowered given the setup. No lynch and let Cuzz investigate more?
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surely eevee unlocked daychat for you; he claimed special recruitment powers d1.
okay, so there's not an individual player who targets anyone--i'm trying to figure out why i didn't see you guys recruit ftl last night, and that kind of makes sense
Well there is also a person who locks night chat for us so we wanted to be sure it wasn't Eevee.
Eevee did indeed claim special recruitment powers but he said "cult" so we thought he might be playing "pro town Ill stop the cult from talking" and thus we recruited Galz, and then Eevee died :(
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I agree Im dangerous as scum. I'm town though, double voting scum would be too obviously overpowered given the setup. No lynch and let Cuzz investigate more?
what do you mean, given the setup?
what about this setup makes a scum doublevoter particularly nasty?
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I agree Im dangerous as scum. I'm town though, double voting scum would be too obviously overpowered given the setup. No lynch and let Cuzz investigate more?
what do you mean, given the setup?
what about this setup makes a scum doublevoter particularly nasty?
TWO people are hated.
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otoh, there's 25 people in the game
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also, NL = axxle wins if he's scum.
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did you claim hated in your mason QT, insomniac?
if scum's there, that could be why they knew to leave you alive
i think you've made this argument already actually
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Where are you getting this info from cayvie. 9 Alive, takes 5 to lynch which means I take 4 to lynch. Axxle is 2 so?
We NL if mafia kill then there is 8 alive so STILL 5 which means I still take 4 and Axxle is only 2, so even if he has a buddy thats not true.
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oh good god
i'm totally insane
we're nowhere near lylo
for some reason i was thinking there were 6 alive
never mind, go ahead and lynch me if you want
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did you claim hated in your mason QT, insomniac?
if scum's there, that could be why they knew to leave you alive
i think you've made this argument already actually
Yes I did and it did make me think Axxle was scum but he has been pretty pro town as well and I just dont think Robz would have made double voting scum which is proven.
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also, NL = axxle wins if he's scum.
you keep saying that, I don't think so?
Aren't there like 8 players left?
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yeah there's 9, i'm not worried anymore
i'm dumb, ignore me
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haha i was lying in bed last night, being like HOW ARE WE AT LYLO when we've lynched so well
lol
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yeah ok
back to vote: yuma
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so there's 9 alive and 4 possible scum? don't we just win then?
cayvie, yuma, axxle, cuzz
lynch me today, scum kills, we have 7 tomorrow
lynch axxle tomorrow, we either win, or scum kills and we have 5
lynch yuma the day after, we either win, or scum kills and we have 3
lynch cuzz
i suppose hated insomniac throws a wrench into that if cuzz is scum
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so there's 9 alive and 4 possible scum? don't we just win then?
cayvie, yuma, axxle, cuzz
lynch me today, scum kills, we have 7 tomorrow
lynch axxle tomorrow, we either win, or scum kills and we have 5
lynch yuma the day after, we either win, or scum kills and we have 3
lynch cuzz
i suppose hated insomniac throws a wrench into that if cuzz is scum
I am indeed the cog here, but without killing a pr and outting themselves scum have to kill me. dont they?
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why can't scum keep leaving you alive?
i'm missing it
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they can kill, say, Dsell tonight, shraeye tomorrow night, ashersky the night after
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they probably leave ashersky alive until lylo for good luck purposes though
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cayvie seems eager to be lynched.
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cayvie seems eager to be lynched.
morgrim seems surprisingly vocal
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cayvie seems eager to be lynched.
morgrim seems surprisingly vocal
haha sorry was gone look on 16th page of domafia 1.
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Vote Count 8.3
Morgrim7 (6) -- Dsell, yuma, ashersky, Insomniac, Axxle
ftl (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (4) -- Ftl, shraeye, Cuzz, Morgrim7
Morgrim7, the Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slightly Better, Vanilla Townie, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynches the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Send me your night actions by 3:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, November 21.
NIGHT 8 START
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So many dead people!
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Vote Count 8.3
Morgrim7 (6) -- Dsell, yuma, ashersky, Insomniac, Axxle
ftl (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (4) -- Ftl, shraeye, Cuzz, Morgrim7
Morgrim7, the Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slightly Better, Vanilla Townie, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynches the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Send me your night actions by 3:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, November 21.
NIGHT 8 START
wait what
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Vote Count 8.3
Morgrim7 (6) -- Dsell, yuma, ashersky, Insomniac, Axxle
ftl (1) -- cayvie
Not Voting (4) -- Ftl, shraeye, Cuzz, Morgrim7
Morgrim7, the Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slightly Better, Vanilla Townie, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynches the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Send me your night actions by 3:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, November 21.
NIGHT 8 START
wait what
we lynched you on the last game day.
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ahh, yes. hahaha sorry Robz... :D anyway...I'll be seein ya...oh, and could i get that dead QT?
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they probably leave ashersky alive until lylo for good luck purposes though
+100000000 for this.
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That is the entirety of it. Myself, Dsell, Axxle and Ftl
So I am still at the point where I think cayvie is the best lynch option... to quote zombie morgrimcayvie seems eager to be lynched.
but I am still getting hung up on the prospect of their being a cult. Does everyone think I am just being crazy and paranoid?
It really just boils down to me not understanding any situation where it was a good decision for scum to no lynch. This makes me wonder if there is no scum at all.
Some other details that could fit into the equation.
We are now at the point where if this is a cult the cult only needs one more recruit to become a majority... assuming they are able to recruit tomorrow and there is a lynch tonight.
Insomniac has said in the past that he was confident that everyone in the quicktopic was town.
Options have ranged from the Mafioso simply not getting recruited
The mason description fits in with possibility of cult
It is not unheard of for Cult and Cult Leader to be aliases of Masonry and Masonizer respectively, but this interpretation is quite outdated given the notoriety Cults have achieved.
And, yes, there is the obvious facts of jot and sparky being Masons and confirming Insomniac as town...
So I think that my paranoia is a little overblown.
I will continue with my vote: cayvie
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lol
yuma completely ignoring my "hey, town probably wins plan"
kill him
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Ok Vote: Yuma
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unvote
I can hammer either, first to L-1.
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Wait stop I can't really get on the forum much till later Friday but don't hammer, I think I'd prefer to lynch Axxle.
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Wait stop I can't really get on the forum much till later Friday but don't hammer, I think I'd prefer to lynch Axxle.
I think they both have one vote, so we should be okay. I was being silly, anyway.
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lol
yuma completely ignoring my "hey, town probably wins plan"
kill him
isn't this your plan....?
so there's 9 alive and 4 possible scum? don't we just win then?
cayvie, yuma, axxle, cuzz
lynch me today, scum kills, we have 7 tomorrow
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Wait stop I can't really get on the forum much till later Friday but don't hammer, I think I'd prefer to lynch Axxle.
and I will be gone in a few hours until sunday... complete VLA, no access at all.
If we really think there is not a cult--and I am only asking because absolutely no one has even responded to my ideas, at least call them insane guys so I know you are paying attention--then cayvie is right, we can probably just lynch whomever we want out of us 4 in order and eventually get to a win.
If town wants to lynch me, you don't need to wait for me to get back. You already know everything you need to know about me. But I do think cayvie is most likely to be scum and end this game sooner.
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Wait stop I can't really get on the forum much till later Friday but don't hammer, I think I'd prefer to lynch Axxle.
I think they both have one vote, so we should be okay. I was being silly, anyway.
lol. I saw the words L-1 and freaked out a little.
I honestly don't know between them, none of them seem like mafia but I think Axxle is the most dangerous as scum and I think his power hasn't necessarily been used in a provably pro-town way like cayvie's has. And yuma's I guess isn't really pro-town either, but he is more protown for other reasons.
I'd probably prefer a lynch order of Axxle->Yuma->Cayvie but I suppose that's flexible. I just don't see a scum watcher being a thing, I don't see cayvie keeping other power roles alive a thing (mostly) and I don't see cayvie deciding not to kill. But I don't see anyone deciding not to kill. Another strike against Axxle is that Insomniac is still alive and the kill order happened like it did.
Yuma, the cult idea is totally crazy. But if there is a cult (except that I'm arguing to lynch Axxle), we would win tonight after recruiting one more....care to join? ;D
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ugh, this is frustrating. Axxle, cayvie, yuma, cuzz. All could be scum, and nobody really knows what's up.
Why don't we look at who they've been voting for, etc. and not from the last part of this game where people seem to have stopped caring. Let's look at the beginning. And also, why haven't there been night kills? There have been some explanations proposed.
Somebody suggested that there is just a cult left (yuma, I think), and that no mafia are around for night kills anymore. Possible, but I think it was discussed a long time ago and people said that Robz wouldn't put a cult in his game. I'm still inclinedto believe there is no cult. But maybe that's why mafia has been submitting no kills; so that people think theres a cult around and kill off those culties, like Insomniac, etc.
One reason I don't think there's a cult, is that Dsell is apparently now eager to lynch Axxle. It was slightly suspicious when the mason group was convinced that no scum was in their group, but if Dsell and Axxle are both in the cult, it makes so much more sense for them to push a suspect like cayvie or cuzz (they aren't in the mason group, right?)
So I suspect yuma a bit for pushing the cult theory.
Let me look at early voting.
I think Yuma is cleared barring very dangerous play. He has been on every scum lynch thus far. I mean, bussing happens, but that's just crazy bussing. But also, he has been on every lynch.
Cuzz is suspicious, he has been not voting on the last three scum lynches (O2, theorol, watno). Also there may have been no night kills because cayvie keeps watching him, not sure.
Cayvie is also suspicious; the deal built up around her night-power is very strange because of how it has changed the meaning of votes. I don't like how vehemently cayvie refused to get on any wagons to protect her watching role, nor do I think some of her targets have made sense. She watched ehunt when Munch was killed, she watched YN when grujah and frisk were killed on nights 1 and 3. Since then cayvie has watched only Cuzz. Are you that certain that Cuzz is scum? Then why is cuzz the last kill in your master plan to kill all suspicious people? I'm suspicious of both you and cuzz being the last 2 scum.
Axxle was on the Grujah lynch (hammer), Munch lynch (9 out of 10 players) and the theorel lynch (frst out of 6 players). At every other deadline he has been not voting. I'm not super suspicious of him at the moment, but slightly suspicious still.
ftl was late onto grujah (10/12), early on Munch (2/10), late on Frisk (he was hammer), early on Youngnick (3/9) which in retrospect makes him a bit suspicious. Ever since we started killing everyone he's been only on the watno lynch.
I'm counting myself, dsell, insomniac, and ashersky as clean. I also notice that I forgot the Morgrim lynch. Yuma was on, and axxle was the hammer. other than that only the people I consider town have voted.
I would want to lynch in the following order.
cayvie, cuzz, axxle.
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Ah dang I was forgetting cuzz. Not sure where he fits in but he's probably towniest.
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townier than yuma?
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Description cop seems townie. And he told us that one of you or ashersky was a vt when one of you was in hot water.
Yuma has been really townie though. So idk.
I was also forgetting ftl. He could be scum too, tbh, but it seems pretty dang unlikely for a lightningrod to be scum.
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Is anyone else paranoid that morgrim messed up telling us his information?
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hmmmm, yeah maybe cuzz could be towny. Can we agree on cayvie/Axxle being scummy?
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Is anyone else paranoid that morgrim messed up telling us his information?
Not really. Does Morgrim have a history of messing up information?
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Vote Count 9.3
cayvie (1) -- yuma
yuma (2) -- cayvie, ftl
Not Voting (6) -- Dsell, Axxle, shraeye, Cuzz, Insomniac, ashersky
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Is anyone else paranoid that morgrim messed up telling us his information?
Not really. Does Morgrim have a history of messing up information?
Nah, I don't think so. He confirmed it several times in-thread. If he had doubt he would have double-checked, I think.
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The only thing I can think of is that he confused VT and semi-VT with Vanilla and semi-Vanilla.
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Yuma, cult sounds crazy.
Unless you're the cult leader, saying the idea is crazy to wifom the cult idea?
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Cayvie is also suspicious; the deal built up around her night-power is very strange because of how it has changed the meaning of votes. I don't like how vehemently cayvie refused to get on any wagons to protect her watching role, nor do I think some of her targets have made sense. She watched ehunt when Munch was killed, she watched YN when grujah and frisk were killed on nights 1 and 3. Since then cayvie has watched only Cuzz. Are you that certain that Cuzz is scum? Then why is cuzz the last kill in your master plan to kill all suspicious people? I'm suspicious of both you and cuzz being the last 2 scum.
no, i think cuzz is very likely town
that's why i've been watching him...
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if i thought someone was scum, why would i watch them?
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I don't know exactly what watching is. Is that different than tracking?
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I don't know exactly what watching is. Is that different than tracking?
A watcher can see everyone who targeted the player at night. So if Axxle was mafia and killed (targeted) Cuzz at night, cayvie would see that Axxle targeted Cuzz.
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I don't know exactly what watching is. Is that different than tracking?
A watcher can see everyone who targeted the player at night. So if Axxle was mafia and killed (targeted) Cuzz at night, cayvie would see that Axxle targeted Cuzz.
if i was watching cuzz
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Loaded examples are fun.
Recent Protown point: I was the one to come up with the plan to confirm ftl as a lightning rod.
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Alright, good to get feedback on the cult issue. Like I said, I thought I was likely just being paranoid and people seem to think that I was, so let's just hope there isn't one.
Axxle is the player that scares me the most as scum.
Cayvie is the player that I think most likely to be scum. But really I think today's movement should be led by our confirmed vanilla townies.
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Alright, good to get feedback on the cult issue. Like I said, I thought I was likely just being paranoid and people seem to think that I was, so let's just hope there isn't one.
Axxle is the player that scares me the most as scum.
Cayvie is the player that I think most likely to be scum. But really I think today's movement should be led by our confirmed vanilla townies.
This is what I think too.
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It is also what I think.
The question is the combination of likely to be scum and dangerousness as scum. My role is obvious to all, we have no idea what other potential scum roles could be.
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It is also what I think.
The question is the combination of likely to be scum and dangerousness as scum. My role is obvious to all, we have no idea what other potential scum roles could be.
This is what I think. Axxle's role as scum is just too scary to be scum.
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It is also what I think.
The question is the combination of likely to be scum and dangerousness as scum. My role is obvious to all, we have no idea what other potential scum roles could be.
This is what I think. Axxle's role as scum is just too scary to be scum.
I feel like this scum team needed a little bit of scariness. So far in this game, at least, it's been decidedly un-scary.
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BOO!!!
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Can someone who has time put together the cross suspicion charts for zm4 and zm5?
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No dead people talking!!!!!!!!!!!!
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It is also what I think.
The question is the combination of likely to be scum and dangerousness as scum. My role is obvious to all, we have no idea what other potential scum roles could be.
This is what I think. Axxle's role as scum is just too scary to be scum.
I feel like this scum team needed a little bit of scariness. So far in this game, at least, it's been decidedly un-scary.
idk, they had a roleblocker and a JOAT
we just, yknow, lynched them
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It is also what I think.
The question is the combination of likely to be scum and dangerousness as scum. My role is obvious to all, we have no idea what other potential scum roles could be.
This is what I think. Axxle's role as scum is just too scary to be scum.
I feel like this scum team needed a little bit of scariness. So far in this game, at least, it's been decidedly un-scary.
idk, they had a roleblocker and a JOAT
we just, yknow, lynched them
It's true. They probably would have been pretty good if we hadn't been so awesome about lynching them. The thing is, all of that success has made me take a town win here for granted.
I do feel like cayvie's plan might still work for a town win though.
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No dead people talking!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, wrong thread.
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So uhh, we gonna get anywhere this game day? Cuzz/Shraeye/Dsell/Ashersky you guys around?
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I'm too busy today IRL to do any heavy lifting. When is deadline?
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Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Around. I guess I don't have a huge preference for who to lynch.
I suppose cayvie's insistence that she MUST be a watcher (because she knew who YN targeted) felt a little eager but I'm probably reading into that.
Again I think Axxle is most dangerous as scum but he's played a pretty pro-town game. Yuma has played very pro-town and I believe kinda started the wagon on Grujah (at least that's the common belief around here).
ftl's role doesn't make sense as scum, Cuzz's doesn't seem to either, unless it's like a rolecop.
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I can plant a vote if needed. I feel like it's random guessing at this point, nothing to really go on.
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I'm thinking No Lynch and allow Cuzz to continue checking descriptions while cayvie watches him, at least while mafia continues to not NK.
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I'm working on within-the-rules paraphrases of all the descriptions I have. I'll send them to Robz to get his stamp of approval and then post.
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Ok, here are the night by night descriptions I received. I think this covers all living players except Insomniac, Dsell and Axxle. The person whose description I received (ie am reasonably certain that I received) is bolded.
Night 1 I investigated cayvie, Eevee, and ehunt. The description I got matches cayvie’s summary of her description from much later in the game. It actually sounds rather townish. It refers to her as being somewhat new, but rather helpful, and that she has a version of a previous ability that she didn’t get to use because she got killed too early in some other game.
Night 2 I investigated ashersky, shraeye, or cayvie (I had no way of knowing at the time that my N1 result was cayvie). This was the description that I was sure referred to a VT. It basically says “you aren’t able to do anything.” (Compare this to Watno’s Mafia Goon description, which mentioned a team at least). I am now quite sure that it is ashersky’s.
Night 3 I investigated Axxle, YoungNick, and sparky. I got YoungNick’s which is now public info. Nothing exciting here.
Night 4 I investigated sparky, watno, and insomniac. Take my word that the description I got referenced Volt’s huge-posting meta (remember sparky replaced Volt). It also hinted at Masonic tendencies Anyway, sparky flipped mason so not too exciting here either.
Night 5 I investigated theorel, ftl, and watno. I got ftl’s description which I know because it matches what I got last night, when I targeted only ftl due to the lightning rod. It mentions a strange power (which makes sense), but also something about being a longtime acquaintence of Robz (or perhaps just an aged individual). This was why I had asked a while ago who Robz’s very first scumteam was, in case that was the reference.
Night 6 I investigated Axxle, shraeye, and yuma. I think I mentioned at the time that this description appears to be yuma’s and says something about how no one paying any attention to him would be good. This seemed scummy to me, but could make sense with his claimed “hider only if no one votes him” role.
Night 7: Axxle, Morgrim, and shraeye. This one also reads quite VT to me, so I think it must be shraeye’s. I just feel like Morgrim would have had more content in his description than this one contained.
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well, cuzz has definitely read my role description.
don't remember if i mentioned this when i description-claimed, but i think robz was referring to Mafia XIII, where i was a tracker and he killed me n1.
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We have already received Morgrim's description
from a couple pages back:
Morgrim7's Description: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynchs the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
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I imagine that both mine and Insomniac's will be pretty clear, so perhaps investigate those you haven't received yet. Alternatively, you could investigate ftl, cayvie, and Axxle so that you know definitively if you get Axxle's.
We should probably no-lynch I guess.
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sidenote:
Did the wine get lost when Watno had it? I am guessing that if he even had an opportunity to pass it he would not have.
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why are we no-lynching at odd parity again?
the scum just didn't kill because they knew ftl was using lightning rod, right? and that was one-shot, so they're gonna kill tonight, i would assume. and then we're at even parity.
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yeah, why not just lynch and then have cuzz investigate as well...
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sidenote:
Did the wine get lost when Watno had it? I am guessing that if he even had an opportunity to pass it he would not have.
Not passing it gets you modkilled. He probably passed it to whoever their kill target was, though.
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sidenote:
Did the wine get lost when Watno had it? I am guessing that if he even had an opportunity to pass it he would not have.
Not passing it gets you modkilled. He probably passed it to whoever their kill target was, though.
he had it when he got lynched.
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sidenote:
Did the wine get lost when Watno had it? I am guessing that if he even had an opportunity to pass it he would not have.
Not passing it gets you modkilled. He probably passed it to whoever their kill target was, though.
he had it when he got lynched.
You pass it the day before. He probably either signalled who he was passing it to or they'd decided on who to kill the night before. It's possible they got lucky.
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sidenote:
Did the wine get lost when Watno had it? I am guessing that if he even had an opportunity to pass it he would not have.
Not passing it gets you modkilled. He probably passed it to whoever their kill target was, though.
he had it when he got lynched.
You pass it the day before. He probably either signalled who he was passing it to or they'd decided on who to kill the night before. It's possible they got lucky.
well that is what I mean. If he hadn't PMed Robz his wine target before he got lynched it wouldn't have been passed. And I am not sure if the wine passes at "dusk" right between day and night after a lynch or if it happens before...
all I know is that we haven't heard about it since then. Sparky was the night kill after watno was lynched. I wonder if that would have been noted in the flavour if he died with it....
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if not passing it gets you modkilled, and he was being lynched, then presumably he just didn't pass it and sucked up the postmortem modkill
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don't remember if i mentioned this when i description-claimed, but i think robz was referring to Mafia XIII, where i was a tracker and he killed me n1.
Hydra mafia with Alternating 9P setup? Try again.
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don't remember if i mentioned this when i description-claimed, but i think robz was referring to Mafia XIII, where i was a tracker and he killed me n1.
Hydra mafia with Alternating 9P setup? Try again.
VIII, oops
roman numerals for chumps
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Oh yeah I guess if he realized he would be lynched he could just not pass it.
Anyway I'm feeling almost ready to vote for a no-lynch. It's just that part of me wants to get this over with.
Cuzz has investigated everyone in doubt except for himself, so by POE the scum is likely to be Axxle, right? Or Cuzz.
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Oh yeah I guess if he realized he would be lynched he could just not pass it.
Anyway I'm feeling almost ready to vote for a no-lynch. It's just that part of me wants to get this over with.
Cuzz has investigated everyone in doubt except for himself, so by POE the scum is likely to be Axxle, right? Or Cuzz.
yeah, I did notice that it was interesting that Cuzz has yet to turn up a scum description, but I guess that could just fit into chance?
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Oh yeah I guess if he realized he would be lynched he could just not pass it.
Anyway I'm feeling almost ready to vote for a no-lynch. It's just that part of me wants to get this over with.
Cuzz has investigated everyone in doubt except for himself, so by POE the scum is likely to be Axxle, right? Or Cuzz.
yeah, I did notice that it was interesting that Cuzz has yet to turn up a scum description, but I guess that could just fit into chance?
Didnt he out Watno?
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Oh yeah I guess if he realized he would be lynched he could just not pass it.
Anyway I'm feeling almost ready to vote for a no-lynch. It's just that part of me wants to get this over with.
Cuzz has investigated everyone in doubt except for himself, so by POE the scum is likely to be Axxle, right? Or Cuzz.
yeah, I did notice that it was interesting that Cuzz has yet to turn up a scum description, but I guess that could just fit into chance?
Didnt he out Watno?
I outed Watno
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Oh yeah I guess if he realized he would be lynched he could just not pass it.
Anyway I'm feeling almost ready to vote for a no-lynch. It's just that part of me wants to get this over with.
Cuzz has investigated everyone in doubt except for himself, so by POE the scum is likely to be Axxle, right? Or Cuzz.
yeah, I did notice that it was interesting that Cuzz has yet to turn up a scum description, but I guess that could just fit into chance?
Didnt he out Watno?
I outed Watno
Sorry I just assumed you were outting all the scum and thus are actually the lowest on my list of PRs that could be scum.
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Preferred lynch order:
Axxle>Cuzz>Cayvie>ftl>Yuma
Under no circumstances would I ever support lynching myself, Shraeye, Ashersky, or Insomniac.
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If we're gonna lynch someone today, I think we should go with Axxle, if only because he will cause headaches when we get to fewer and fewer people.
I find it a bit strange that Robz would have given us a scum doublevoter, but it is possible.
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If we're gonna lynch someone today, I think we should go with Axxle, if only because he will cause headaches when we get to fewer and fewer people.
I find it a bit strange that Robz would have given us a scum doublevoter, but it is possible.
I wonder if Axxle uses his double-vote he is unable to perform the night lynch? He has been on both of the last two wagons and there has been no night kill?
Man... I am full of conspiracy theories.
I'll be honest, I want to lynch cayvie, mostly because I want my new-mafia theory to be right. But I suppose Axxle may be the smarter lynch.
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yeah, i'd be down for an axxle lynch
dsell: ftl before yuma?
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yeah, i'd be down for an axxle lynch
dsell: ftl before yuma?
It's close, and that isn't a hard-and-fast order. But he really has been at the start of several scum lynches so unless it was a really long-term bussing plan to get him cred at the end, he seems so unlikely. Maybe I'd rather lynch him before ftl. It's really really close.
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@yuma for your conspiracy. Has axxle ever been scum?
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@yuma for your conspiracy. Has axxle ever been scum?
yes. MI... a long long time ago before mafia was even a twinkle in our eye.
well, we all seem to be leaning the same way, vote: axxle
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Vote: YoungNick. As I said before I think I got his description, and it does mention cards. But there was maybe a sinister tone to it that is hard to describe without direct quoting, and I think he definitely could be scum.
Young Nick (9) -- jotheonah, shraeye, ftl, yuma, Morgrim7, ashersky, Cuzz, O, ehunt
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Sinister tone? "Kind Person" right...
Vote: Cuzz
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Vote: YoungNick. As I said before I think I got his description, and it does mention cards. But there was maybe a sinister tone to it that is hard to describe without direct quoting, and I think he definitely could be scum.
Young Nick (9) -- jotheonah, shraeye, ftl, yuma, Morgrim7, ashersky, Cuzz, O, ehunt
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Sinister tone? "Kind Person" right...
Vote: Cuzz
nice catch... if that was a catch.
Cuzz anything to say here?
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I read the "kind person" part as maybe a bit ironic in nature. It was the ellipses that sounded potentially sinister to me.
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I read the "kind person" part as maybe a bit ironic in nature. It was the ellipses that sounded potentially sinister to me.
hmmm... okay....
Couple more thoughts:
just went and looked back at watno a bit.
he was interesting because he had a major bus strategy. He was on the Grujah lynch for starters, and ealy on it.
But in looking at this thread (the thread since we opened up the new one) Watno has voted for Cuzz, theorel, sparky, young nick, ashersky, O, ashersky, ashersky. So he was obviously ready and willing to vote scum parnters and appeared to even force it at times.
Another idea is that cuzz thought that cayvie watching him was similar to tracking him... and so didn't perform the night kills?
And! Cuzz had not been scum before this game!
unvote
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I was also probably a bit swayed by a lot of people being YoungNick-lynch-happy at the time, and I let them influence my reads a bit too much, at a time when I hadn't been paying super close attention to this game.
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I read the "kind person" part as maybe a bit ironic in nature. It was the ellipses that sounded potentially sinister to me.
hmmm... okay....
Couple more thoughts:
just went and looked back at watno a bit.
he was interesting because he had a major bus strategy. He was on the Grujah lynch for starters, and ealy on it.
But in looking at this thread (the thread since we opened up the new one) Watno has voted for Cuzz, theorel, sparky, young nick, ashersky, O, ashersky, ashersky. So he was obviously ready and willing to vote scum parnters and appeared to even force it at times.
Another idea is that cuzz thought that cayvie watching him was similar to tracking him... and so didn't perform the night kills?
And! Cuzz had not been scum before this game!
unvote
Dude, I know the difference between watching and tracking.
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I read the "kind person" part as maybe a bit ironic in nature. It was the ellipses that sounded potentially sinister to me.
hmmm... okay....
Couple more thoughts:
just went and looked back at watno a bit.
he was interesting because he had a major bus strategy. He was on the Grujah lynch for starters, and ealy on it.
But in looking at this thread (the thread since we opened up the new one) Watno has voted for Cuzz, theorel, sparky, young nick, ashersky, O, ashersky, ashersky. So he was obviously ready and willing to vote scum parnters and appeared to even force it at times.
Another idea is that cuzz thought that cayvie watching him was similar to tracking him... and so didn't perform the night kills?
And! Cuzz had not been scum before this game!
unvote
Dude, I know the difference between watching and tracking.
Ok... but I will admit that I had gotten them confused today already.
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I was also probably a bit swayed by a lot of people being YoungNick-lynch-happy at the time, and I let them influence my reads a bit too much, at a time when I hadn't been paying super close attention to this game.
Not buying this. Sounds like scrambling.
Vote: Cuzz
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vote: Cuzz
That is L-1
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Aight, I mean, I'm town and I don't really think my role makes much sense as a scum role, and I've been pretty open about sharing all of the descriptions I've read to the best of my ability. I have nothing more to claim though.
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Ash do you think scum would have the role of Description Cop? And if so, do you think they would have announced to town that you were a VT on D2 or whenever that was?
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Ash do you think scum would have the role of Description Cop? And if so, do you think they would have announced to town that you were a VT on D2 or whenever that was?
it is very similar to a rolecop
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Ash do you think scum would have the role of Description Cop? And if so, do you think they would have announced to town that you were a VT on D2 or whenever that was?
it is very similar to a rolecop
Yeah, I guess but it's a pretty weak version. It's also similar to copcop if I had ever been able to grab a scum description.
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Ash do you think scum would have the role of Description Cop? And if so, do you think they would have announced to town that you were a VT on D2 or whenever that was?
I don't really know the answer to that, but there are definitely types of cops on the mafia side. There are ways to scummify anything.
Announcing VT-ness got you towncred, and alive to this point. We could be wrong, but I think we have the numbers to pull this through for town anyway.
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Ash do you think scum would have the role of Description Cop? And if so, do you think they would have announced to town that you were a VT on D2 or whenever that was?
I don't really know the answer to that, but there are definitely types of cops on the mafia side. There are ways to scummify anything.
Announcing VT-ness got you towncred, and alive to this point. We could be wrong, but I think we have the numbers to pull this through for town anyway.
You probably do, and hopefully my lynch will still be better than a no-lynch.
I'm still gonna Vote: Axxle though.
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Ash do you think scum would have the role of Description Cop? And if so, do you think they would have announced to town that you were a VT on D2 or whenever that was?
I don't really know the answer to that, but there are definitely types of cops on the mafia side. There are ways to scummify anything.
Announcing VT-ness got you towncred, and alive to this point. We could be wrong, but I think we have the numbers to pull this through for town anyway.
You probably do, and hopefully my lynch will still be better than a no-lynch.
I'm still gonna Vote: Axxle though.
If you flip mafia, bolded your scumslip for you.
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Ash do you think scum would have the role of Description Cop? And if so, do you think they would have announced to town that you were a VT on D2 or whenever that was?
I don't really know the answer to that, but there are definitely types of cops on the mafia side. There are ways to scummify anything.
Announcing VT-ness got you towncred, and alive to this point. We could be wrong, but I think we have the numbers to pull this through for town anyway.
You probably do, and hopefully my lynch will still be better than a no-lynch.
I'm still gonna Vote: Axxle though.
Haha, that "you" probably sounds like a scumslip. It's really not. Not sure if pointing that out makes me sound good or bad though. I always sound scummy as town under lynch pressure because I have too much fun knowing everyone else is wrong. I've also just had like 3 glasses of wine.
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Ninja'd!!!!
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I really want to know why there's been no nightkill the last two nights.
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Vote Count 9.4
yuma (2) -- cayvie, ftl
Cuzz (4) -- Axxle, ashersky, yuma {L-1}
Axxle (1) -- Cuzz
Not Voting (3) -- Dsell, shraeye, Insomniac
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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vote: Axxle
A better lynch today, i think.
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vote: Axxle
A better lynch today, i think.
So scum double voter is more likely than scum role/description cop? More dangerous sure, but more likely?
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I'm really going back and forth on which is more likely. So I've decided to clear out the dangerous first.
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I'm really going back and forth on which is more likely. So I've decided to clear out the dangerous first.
This is kinda how I feel. We are still really, really far from lylo though, so I'm still not sure it matters all that much.
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I'm really going back and forth on which is more likely. So I've decided to clear out the dangerous first.
This is kinda how I feel. We are still really, really far from lylo though, so I'm still not sure it matters all that much.
I'm still alive, so if we were at Lylo, we would be lost.
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I'm really going back and forth on which is more likely. So I've decided to clear out the dangerous first.
This is kinda how I feel. We are still really, really far from lylo though, so I'm still not sure it matters all that much.
I'm still alive, so if we were at Lylo, we would be lost.
No one but scum would dare vote for you.
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I'm really going back and forth on which is more likely. So I've decided to clear out the dangerous first.
This is kinda how I feel. We are still really, really far from lylo though, so I'm still not sure it matters all that much.
I'm still alive, so if we were at Lylo, we would be lost.
No one but scum would dare vote for you.
I was making a meta-joke about my recent string of Lylo deaths for town losses. You are right, though, on your original point--we have time and some wiggle room on mislynches.
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wow, when'd cuzz get to L-1
i've been watching cuzz ever since i saw him target Young Nick on the same night as O (n3), and then O claimed to roleblock him.
i don't see a scenario where they'd do that while on the same scum team.
like, why both roleblock and investigate someone you know (since you're scum) to be town?
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wow, when'd cuzz get to L-1
i've been watching cuzz ever since i saw him target Young Nick on the same night as O (n3), and then O claimed to roleblock him.
i don't see a scenario where they'd do that while on the same scum team.
like, why both roleblock and investigate someone you know (since you're scum) to be town?
But did O actually roleblock him?
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Unvote
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wow, when'd cuzz get to L-1
i've been watching cuzz ever since i saw him target Young Nick on the same night as O (n3), and then O claimed to roleblock him.
i don't see a scenario where they'd do that while on the same scum team.
like, why both roleblock and investigate someone you know (since you're scum) to be town?
But did O actually roleblock him?
Young Nick claimed to be Roleblocked!
O claimed to roleblock him!
I claimed to see O target Young Nick!
O was revealed after death as a mafia roleblocker!
what do you think happened???
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O claimed to roleblock Cuzz?
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You mean Cuzz and not Young Nick?
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no, O claimed to roleblock young nick
did i say cuzz
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okay, my "him" was unclear
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It would be pretty significant if O had claimed to roleblock Cuzz somewhere, since Cuzz' results don't appear to reflect that.
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It would be pretty significant if O had claimed to roleblock Cuzz somewhere, since Cuzz' results don't appear to reflect that.
Why? It's not like we can trust O2.
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It would still be an interesting piece of information.
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Oxygen claimed joat, and having only roleblocked yn
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And cayvie comes to my defense with something I hadn't even thought of! Town points for her. I was almost ready for a self-hammer to keep myself from being too much of a distraction.
Lynch deadline tomorrow, so is there a consensus? How do people feel about the Axxle lynch. I'm not convinced he's scum, but I'm also not convinced anyone is scum, and I lean towards thinking that the people whose descriptions I have are town.
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And cayvie comes to my defense with something I hadn't even thought of! Town points for her. I was almost ready for a self-hammer to keep myself from being too much of a distraction.
Lynch deadline tomorrow, so is there a consensus? How do people feel about the Axxle lynch. I'm not convinced he's scum, but I'm also not convinced anyone is scum, and I lean towards thinking that the people whose descriptions I have are town.
Yup. Axxle is the lynch.
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Vote: yuma
Only one that makes sense, unless cayvie is protecting Cuzz for cred.
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Now I am at L-1. Could be worse I suppose. vote: axxle
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Vote: yuma
Only one that makes sense, unless cayvie is protecting Cuzz for cred.
So scum decided to start a wagon on Grujah, be involved in the O lynch, Out Watno with no case on him, be involved in the theorel lynch AND not just eat up the wine.
Note Grujah lynch might have happened without yuma, O might have as well.
Watno lynch and Theorel lynch would not have happened without yuma.
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Vote Count 9.5
yuma (4) -- cayvie, ftl, Axxle
Cuzz (1) -- ashersky
Axxle (3) -- Cuzz, shraeye, yuma
Not Voting (2) -- Dsell, Insomniac
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Vote: yuma
Only one that makes sense, unless cayvie is protecting Cuzz for cred.
So scum decided to start a wagon on Grujah, be involved in the O lynch, Out Watno with no case on him, be involved in the theorel lynch AND not just eat up the wine.
Note Grujah lynch might have happened without yuma, O might have as well.
Watno lynch and Theorel lynch would not have happened without yuma.
Who do you think we should lynch? Whatever scum is left there is going to be convoluted reasoning for them being scum.
Another thought is that scum-Cuzz targeted YN knowing cayvie would watch him (or suspecting it).
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Vote: yuma
Only one that makes sense, unless cayvie is protecting Cuzz for cred.
So scum decided to start a wagon on Grujah, be involved in the O lynch, Out Watno with no case on him, be involved in the theorel lynch AND not just eat up the wine.
Note Grujah lynch might have happened without yuma, O might have as well.
Watno lynch and Theorel lynch would not have happened without yuma.
Who do you think we should lynch? Whatever scum is left there is going to be convoluted reasoning for them being scum.
Another thought is that scum-Cuzz targeted YN knowing cayvie would watch him (or suspecting it).
Probably Cayvie or you. You have played pretty pro town (until you voted for yuma) but you have strikes against you like the kill order of the nobles. Cayvie also has the kill order against her though, and if she IS town she is the weakest of the roles because she just dictates who the scum can't kill but it's not like they don't have an abundance of targets.
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Vote: Cayvie, then. I'm not convinced on Axxle, yet. He's good for tomorrow.
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Vote: Cayvie, then. I'm not convinced on Axxle, yet. He's good for tomorrow.
No, axxle is today.
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I don't like that yuma is L-1.
I agree that Axxle should be today's lynch.
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On that note, Vote: Axxle.
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So that's yuma and Axxle at L-1? Someone will need to switch, or it's up to Insom.
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Axxle is my 2 nobody wants to hit cayvie today? If no one wants to hit cayvie ill vote axxle
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I thought about cayvie, but based on Cuzz's description for cayvie, I'm willing to give cayvie a pass until tomorrow.
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I'm probably up for cayvie tomorrow if Axxle flips town. Maybe. My second choice is actually no-lynch and let cuzz investigate.
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Unvote
Honestly just lost at the moment. I don't really like any of these lynches.
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Unvote
Honestly just lost at the moment. I don't really like any of these lynches.
Man, neither do I.
Whoever the last scum actually is is doing a really good job fitting in.
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Does anyone know why ftl's description would refer to him as a longtime acquaintance of Robz? That was emphasized and seemed odd.
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Does anyone know why ftl's description would refer to him as a longtime acquaintance of Robz? That was emphasized and seemed odd.
I got nothing there. But it is somewhat suspicious.
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Does anyone know why ftl's description would refer to him as a longtime acquaintance of Robz? That was emphasized and seemed odd.
They were both in mafia I?
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I wasn't a longtime acquaintance :(
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I wasn't a longtime acquaintance :(
I dunno. I'm not saying that's what it is, just a possibility.
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Either that or is ftl particularly elderly? Can't quote directly, but maybe you catch my drift.
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Does anyone know why ftl's description would refer to him as a longtime acquaintance of Robz? That was emphasized and seemed odd.
They were both in mafia I?
Additionally, they were both on town there. But so was O...hmm...
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Vote Count 9.6
yuma (2) -- cayvie, ftl
Axxle (4) -- Cuzz, shraeye, yuma, Dsell
cayvie (1) -- ashersky
Not Voting (2) -- Insomniac, Axxle
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Axxle's second on my list. Should I hammer?
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Now I'm really second-guessing myself and wondering if ftl is the way to go. Though that wagon does not actually exist at the moment. But that would completely explain the no-lynch last night...
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Now I'm really second-guessing myself and wondering if ftl is the way to go. Though that wagon does not actually exist at the moment. But that would completely explain the no-lynch last night...
Interesting theory but scum lightning rod in a game with 2 serial killers...no way
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So...vote? But scum double-voter? Sounds as bad as scum lightning rod.
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Lightning rod isn't compulsive, and I think one SK didn't have a nightkill. Lightning rod would be useful to infiltrate the masonry
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And maybe to steal the wine.
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I mean I guess at this point scum is a pr and the pr's are all super wierd to be a scum role.
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Now I'm really second-guessing myself and wondering if ftl is the way to go. Though that wagon does not actually exist at the moment. But that would completely explain the no-lynch last night...
Interesting theory but scum lightning rod in a game with 2 serial killers...no way
Oh, hmm didn't think of that.
PPE: ash scum doublevoter is really powerful but not unheard of. Plus it could be one of those things where Robz gave it to Axxle based off of the Axxle2 thing, and then drew his alignment later.
PPE: Axxle also has a good point, but his support of this ftl case is also making me feel better about lynching him (Axxle).
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I'll hammer in 25 minutes, if nothing compelling comes up.
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Now I'm really second-guessing myself and wondering if ftl is the way to go. Though that wagon does not actually exist at the moment. But that would completely explain the no-lynch last night...
But there was no kill the night before, also. And maybe the night before that even.
But I've given up on trying to explain why there was no kill. It doesn't make sense for anyone to not send in a night kill.
But gah, Axxle was posting in the Nobles QT during those nights, and I can't see aaaany reason why he wouldn't just send in a night kill.
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FTL has been prodded several times for this game and is quitting forum games so it might have been that he missed it but he defs lightning roded but that just means he didn't miss last night, the night before he might have though and if the kill would have been redirected to him he wouldn't have submitted a night kill
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FTL has been prodded several times for this game and is quitting forum games so it might have been that he missed it but he defs lightning roded but that just means he didn't miss last night, the night before he might have though and if the kill would have been redirected to him he wouldn't have submitted a night kill
I have thought of this too and it's troubled me. I know he did happen to see the forums before it went into night last night because he posted confirming he would do the lightning rod.
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That said Axxle came up with the plan of FTL using his lightning rod so it could have been
If I kill and ftl uses lightning rod I'm straight screwed cuz cayvie will see me. So if I get the Nobles to support ftl using lightning rod and no kill for two nights I'll be safe to kill anyone cayvie doesn't watch.
Alternate possibility. Axxle is the last scum and was given your a double voter but you can't perform the mafia night kill because of this.
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FTL has been prodded several times for this game and is quitting forum games so it might have been that he missed it but he defs lightning roded but that just means he didn't miss last night, the night before he might have though and if the kill would have been redirected to him he wouldn't have submitted a night kill
Should we lynch ftl instead then? My case against Axxle is more that I'm afraid of a scum doublevoter than that I actually really think he's scum.
unvote for now
It would probably be best to go back and do some wagon analysis but maaaaaaaaaan...
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Alternate possibility. Axxle is the last scum and was given your a double voter but you can't perform the mafia night kill because of this.
Also a very plausible theory.
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Sorry Axxle I can't get a cayvie lynch to fly and I have kind of talked myself into your lynch.
Vote: Axxle
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Vote: cayvie
does that help?
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you should sheep me, asher.
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And I see he already has. Good job.
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Vote Count 9.7
yuma (2) -- cayvie, ftl
Axxle (4) -- shraeye, yuma, Dsell, Insomniac
cayvie (3) -- ashersky, Axxle
Not Voting (1) -- Cuzz
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, November 28, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Vote: Cayvie
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What makes cayvie so much more compelling than Axxle?
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I really don't think cayvie is scum. Why would she care who targets me each night if she was? And her description makes special note of her being helpfulish which makes little sense to point out if she were scum.
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Vote: yuma
Only one that makes sense, unless cayvie is protecting Cuzz for cred.
So scum decided to start a wagon on Grujah, be involved in the O lynch, Out Watno with no case on him, be involved in the theorel lynch AND not just eat up the wine.
Note Grujah lynch might have happened without yuma, O might have as well.
Watno lynch and Theorel lynch would not have happened without yuma.
Who do you think we should lynch? Whatever scum is left there is going to be convoluted reasoning for them being scum.
Another thought is that scum-Cuzz targeted YN knowing cayvie would watch him (or suspecting it).
Probably Cayvie or you. You have played pretty pro town (until you voted for yuma) but you have strikes against you like the kill order of the nobles. Cayvie also has the kill order against her though, and if she IS town she is the weakest of the roles because she just dictates who the scum can't kill but it's not like they don't have an abundance of targets.
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And I see he already has. Good job.
I was there first. Now I'm tempted to switch to you.
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I really don't think cayvie is scum. Why would she care who targets me each night if she was? And her description makes special note of her being helpfulish which makes little sense to point out if she were scum.
This isn't a bad argument. And Insom's suggestion that Axxle was avoiding the kill for fear of ftl is clever and somewhat compelling.
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I really don't think cayvie is scum. Why would she care who targets me each night if she was? And her description makes special note of her being helpfulish which makes little sense to point out if she were scum.
This isn't a bad argument. And Insom's suggestion that Axxle was avoiding the kill for fear of ftl is clever and somewhat compelling.
Any scum that bothered to think about it wouldn't have sent the NK that night.
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I really don't think cayvie is scum. Why would she care who targets me each night if she was? And her description makes special note of her being helpfulish which makes little sense to point out if she were scum.
This isn't a bad argument. And Insom's suggestion that Axxle was avoiding the kill for fear of ftl is clever and somewhat compelling.
Any scum that bothered to think about it wouldn't have sent the NK that night.
I'm arguing it for the night before as well. Or that you as scum aren't allowed to submit the NK because Double voting night killing scum is ridic.
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You remember there are two hated players right? Double voting would be way too strong a scumrole.
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You remember there are two hated players right? Double voting would be way too strong a scumrole.
yes, 2 players in a 25 player game. That is a terrible argument for doublevoting being too strong a scumrole.
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You remember there are two hated players right? Double voting would be way too strong a scumrole.
yes, 2 players in a 25 player game. That is a terrible argument for doublevoting being too strong a scumrole.
It's as strong an argument as this one:
I'm arguing it for the night before as well. Or that you as scum aren't allowed to submit the NK because Double voting night killing scum is ridic.
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Gah!
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That said Axxle came up with the plan of FTL using his lightning rod so it could have been
If I kill and ftl uses lightning rod I'm straight screwed cuz cayvie will see me. So if I get the Nobles to support ftl using lightning rod and no kill for two nights I'll be safe to kill anyone cayvie doesn't watch.
Alternate possibility. Axxle is the last scum and was given your a double voter but you can't perform the mafia night kill because of this.
Ah now I see what you're saying. What we should have done was have cayvie watch ftl every night and have ftl randomly use his lightningrod.
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well should we now vote ftl, get him to L-1 and then quickly backaway...? all of the other potential scum players have been there today, why not him?
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well should we now vote ftl, get him to L-1 and then quickly backaway...? all of the other potential scum players have been there today, why not him?
I think we have the votes to lynch almost anyone we want. I see no harm in teasing out a bit more conversation before doing so.
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Vote: ftl
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Whoever the last scum actually is is doing a really good job fitting in.
So you think it's yuma?
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i'm happy with an axxle or a yuma lynch; i'm not the first to say something like this, but
i think yuma is the most likely scum
i think axxle is the scariest possibility
either one is good to get rid of
vote: axxle
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Vote: Axxle more than anyone he's anybody but me voting.
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i'm happy with an axxle or a yuma lynch; i'm not the first to say something like this, but
i think yuma is the most likely scum
i think axxle is the scariest possibility
either one is good to get rid of
vote: axxle
you really think I am the most likely scum? Really, honestly, truly, deeply?
I think you mad.
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THREAD LOCKED, flip when I get home in an hour, sorry
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Vote Count 9.8
yuma (2) -- cayvie, ftl
Axxle (4) -- shraeye, yuma, Dsell, cayvie, Insomniac
cayvie (1) -- ashersky
ftl (2) -- Axxle
Not Voting (1) -- Cuzz
Axxle, the Town-aligned Double Voter, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "You've grown accustomed to receiving the following greeting: "Oh for goodness sake, you again? AGAIN, again??" They say you only get one life to live, but "they" are clearly uninformed. Regardless, no more fooling around this time. You will be heard, and you're going to make it count. Possibly twice."
Submit your night actions by 9:00 PM EDT on Thursday, November 29th.
NIGHT 9 START
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[flavor]Behind the masks that conceal your true thoughts, under your heavy eyelids, weighed down by an ever-growing sense of humility, in the caverns of your brains there lurks a new emotion. What is it? Fear.
In the Courtyard Masquerade, you now must live in fear. For your luck has run out, friends.
"Is the narrator talking about the town, or the scum?" asked Dsell.
"Beats me/I don't know/is the narrator Robz, I don't get it, he's missing right?/No we found him," muttered various players.
[/flavor]
Insomniac, the Town-aligned Hated Mason, has been killed.
A Dominion card was also found: a Baron. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss), Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 6
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac, Town-aligned Hated Mason, killed Night 9
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah, Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 5
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire), Scum-aligned Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 5
11. Axxle, Town-aligned Double Voter, lynched Day 9
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis), Scum-aligned Mafia One-Shot Ninja, lynched Day 7
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7, Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slight Better Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 8
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno, Scum-aligned Mafia Goon, lynched Day 6
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
O (Voltaire)'s Description: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Nobles, belonging to O (Voltaire) or jotheonah.
Watno's Description: "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Nobles, belonging to watno or sparky5856.
Theorel (ibgtennis)'s Description: "Who is this unknown shadow slipping silenty through the night?"
Conspirator, belonging to Theorel (ibgtennis).
Morgrim7's Description: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynchs the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Shanty Town, belonging to Morgrim7.
Axxle's Description: "You've grown accustomed to receiving the following greeting: "Oh for goodness sake, you again? AGAIN, again??" They say you only get one life to live, but "they" are clearly uninformed. Regardless, no more fooling around this time. You will be heard, and you're going to make it count. Possibly twice."
Baron, belonging to Axxle or Insomniac.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 10 START
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Vote Count 10.1
Not Voting (7) -- Ftl, Dsell, shraeye, Cuzz, yuma, cayvie, ashersky
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline is Thursday, December 6, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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Why the hell would scum nightkill someone who claimed to be hated?
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I also keep wondering why I'm still alive. I claimed an investigative role on D3 or something like that and it's D10. If they have a really damning description they should kill me, right?
I feel like this probably means mafia knows I already have their description, and know I've already misinterpreted it or something.
I was thinking about yuma in particular. And particularly the fact that he claimed a role of "hider" even though he described his role as basically being a commuter. Am I remembering this correctly?
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Ugh, there's too much to remember. Who was the original 3 mason group?
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I'll have you know I was the only player to target Axxle last night.
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Yeah, I'm surprised they killed Insomniac too.
Possibly trying to make it look like I did it, because Ins was suspicious of me? But Dsell was vocally suspicious of me too, along with most of the town, I think--you might be the only one who wasn't, tbh, cuzz.
Did you find out any useful flavor goodies, cuzz?
Is the mason chat still active without any of the original members alive? Original members being Ins, jo, and volt/sparky.
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Ugh, there's too much to remember. Who was the original 3 mason group?
Voltgloss, Insomniac, Joth were the original 3
I think Mason chat will still exist without original members, it's still there at least and hasn't been announced as closed forever, maybe it will be? I'd guess not
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I think it'll still be open, but it was pretty quiet there last night.
As far as hider/commuter goes, Robz may actually be basing the hiding idea on MVI, where he was a jack of all trades and one of his options was to "hide" although it was really more like commuting.
Additionally, if Yuma and Theorel were on the same scum team, it seems like they might pick different roles to fakeclaim, especially if there was a risk of town actually claiming hider/commuter too.
And it does seem like yuma is telling the truth about hiding considering that he doesn't appear to be in the Nobles QT. Although, "I'm immune to nightkills but only if you don't vote for me" it is a bit of a convenient endgame claim. I dunno.
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Dsell can you paraphrase your description for me?
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And it does seem like yuma is telling the truth about hiding considering that he doesn't appear to be in the Nobles QT. Although, "I'm immune to nightkills but only if you don't vote for me" it is a bit of a convenient endgame claim. I dunno.
do you have any way of knowing that he doesn't have access to it, as opposed to just not posting in it?
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And it does seem like yuma is telling the truth about hiding considering that he doesn't appear to be in the Nobles QT. Although, "I'm immune to nightkills but only if you don't vote for me" it is a bit of a convenient endgame claim. I dunno.
do you have any way of knowing that he doesn't have access to it, as opposed to just not posting in it?
No way to know.
@Cuzz:
I sent a PM trying to get approval for a summary.
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@Cuzz
Once, you and Robz were both in 2 games simultaneously. Robz was wrong about your alignment in both games. He still remembers. Have fun doing nothing.
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I also keep wondering why I'm still alive. I claimed an investigative role on D3 or something like that and it's D10.
No offense, but this makes it seem more and more like you are scum.
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I also keep wondering why I'm still alive. I claimed an investigative role on D3 or something like that and it's D10.
No offense, but this makes it seem more and more like you are scum.
But if that scum felt sure that their description was not scummy enough to get them in trouble, they can set cuzz up for a mislynch.
That said, point taken.
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possible answers as to why cuzz might be town and alive that aren't "wifom"
--the scum have been killing confirmed townies every night, haven't they? masons for the last three, at least. with only one death a night, maybe they just haven't gotten around to cuzz.
--maybe they're just not worried about cuzz's flavor investigation; their descriptions don't look particularly scummy
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Hey Dsell, where do you lean on Cuzz, I'm kind of confused by your most recent post? I'm thinking about him being scum, could be tru.e But there's another player too that I'm worried about (well 2 to be correct but one more than the other)
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I am pretty lost tbh.
It could be cuzz, it could be cayvie, it could be yuma, it could be ftl.
None of their roles really fit as scum. And yet they're all pretty much proven true.
If I had to choose, I would lynch cayvie and then cuzz, but yuma and ftl are really wildcards too. I am super torn.
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Is shraeye confirmed VT? I know he was in the list with me.
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Yes. Morgrim said there were 4 VTs.
eHal was one of them. You, myself, and Shraeye are the other three. We are confirmed because no one has counterclaimed and because no one else has died as a VT.
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So the pool is FTL, Cuzz, Yuma, and Cayvie.
I'd say we need to lynch cayvie or yuma today.
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Ugh yuma is beginning to scare me too because it does kinda make sense for scum to hide and I wouldn't put it past yuma and theorel to plan something like this to get one killed and get the other town credit.
But ugh, they all seem so innocent and yet so scummy at the same time.
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Yup, i never understood why Yuma got the town-pass, could somebody rehash those arguments again?
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Vote: yuma. Might as well get started.
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Yuma was at the front of the Grujah wagon, and yuma and theorel basically claimed the same thing. Yuma claimed hider, theorel claimed commuter, but yuma's hider worked like a commuter. It's weird that they would both basically claim the same thing but under two different names. It's doubly weird if they were both fakeclaims, because then if there was an actual town hider, they would both be caught in a lie.
However I think yuma is telling the truth. It just might not be so bad as a scum role.
Have there been any actual 1-shots in the game? Or is ftl the only potential townie who's claimed a 1-shot role?
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Also yuma had something to do with outing Watno.
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Yuma was at the front of the Grujah wagon, and yuma and theorel basically claimed the same thing. Yuma claimed hider, theorel claimed commuter, but yuma's hider worked like a commuter. It's weird that they would both basically claim the same thing but under two different names. It's doubly weird if they were both fakeclaims, because then if there was an actual town hider, they would both be caught in a lie.
However I think yuma is telling the truth. It just might not be so bad as a scum role.
Have there been any actual 1-shots in the game? Or is ftl the only potential townie who's claimed a 1-shot role?
I don't think ftl is particularly suspicious for having a 1-shot. He could be suspicious for other reasons. It's been verified that he did hve a lightning rod. It would be pretty crazy for Robz to have a multipole shot lightning rod.
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Also yuma had something to do with outing Watno.
Oh yeah, yuma passed the wine to watno and revealed that his description was scummy.
Could have been getting town-cred by outing a fellow scum while simultaneously getting the wine out of the game.
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Yuma was at the front of the Grujah wagon, and yuma and theorel basically claimed the same thing. Yuma claimed hider, theorel claimed commuter, but yuma's hider worked like a commuter. It's weird that they would both basically claim the same thing but under two different names. It's doubly weird if they were both fakeclaims, because then if there was an actual town hider, they would both be caught in a lie.
However I think yuma is telling the truth. It just might not be so bad as a scum role.
Have there been any actual 1-shots in the game? Or is ftl the only potential townie who's claimed a 1-shot role?
I don't think ftl is particularly suspicious for having a 1-shot. He could be suspicious for other reasons. It's been verified that he did hve a lightning rod. It would be pretty crazy for Robz to have a multipole shot lightning rod.
True.
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Also yuma had something to do with outing Watno.
Oh yeah, yuma passed the wine to watno and revealed that his description was scummy.
Could have been getting town-cred by outing a fellow scum while simultaneously getting the wine out of the game.
Yeah, i think credit for doing that has been ridden for a loooong time. Could have been classic bussing. Frankly, yuma scares me as scum as well.
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So the pool is FTL, Cuzz, Yuma, and Cayvie.
I'd say we need to lynch cayvie or yuma today.
okay, i know there's a reason for it, but i can't remember:
why is Dsell not in the possible scum pool?
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So the pool is FTL, Cuzz, Yuma, and Cayvie.
I'd say we need to lynch cayvie or yuma today.
okay, i know there's a reason for it, but i can't remember:
why is Dsell not in the possible scum pool?
He says he's confirmed VT with me and shraeye.
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So the pool is FTL, Cuzz, Yuma, and Cayvie.
I'd say we need to lynch cayvie or yuma today.
okay, i know there's a reason for it, but i can't remember:
why is Dsell not in the possible scum pool?
He says he's confirmed VT with me and shraeye.
confirmed by morgrim's role-knowledge of the number of VTs in the game?
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So the pool is FTL, Cuzz, Yuma, and Cayvie.
I'd say we need to lynch cayvie or yuma today.
okay, i know there's a reason for it, but i can't remember:
why is Dsell not in the possible scum pool?
He says he's confirmed VT with me and shraeye.
confirmed by morgrim's role-knowledge of the number of VTs in the game?
Yes, and no counter-claims.
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cool.
that's legit.
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cayvie: claimed watcher, has given evidence for it.
cuzz: claimed flavor-cop, has basically proven it. this could be a scum rolecop variation.
ftl: claimed 1-shot lightning rod, has basically proven it. this seems like a terrible scumrole.
yuma: claimed commuter/hider
i know i'm town, but nobody else does. except the scum.
ftl's role seems terrible for scum, especially since the people who got redirected knew they were getting redirected toward ftl.
like, no upside whatsoever.
i've been treating cuzz as town since i saw him target young nick alongside O night 3, but i've been reevaluating that opinion lately. if cuzz is a mafia rolecop, n2 he investigated me and found that i had an investigative role that was a variation on an earlier role i had. so targeting young nick might have been a setup for additional towncred somehow? idk.
on the other hand, the whole "target 3 people, get description of 1" seems awfully weak for a scum role, in a game where the scum roles have seemed to be either vanilla goon or regular-strength power-roles.
which leads me back to yuma as most likely scum. as in, there's no evidence to support his claim, other than that he hasn't posted in the mason thread, which, of course he wouldn't do if he were scum.
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Sure, I like a yuma lynch.
Vote: yuma
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I'll let yuma get in here and defend himself before putting a vote on him.
It's possible there's something we've forgotten.
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i do feel like it's an incredible stroke of luck that the mafia killed insomniac last night.
even if i'm wrong and there are in fact 2 scum left alive, we're still not at lylo.
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i remember robz talking somewhere (mafia VI, maybe? it was awhile ago) about how, in larger games, to balance a setup, you want a smaller percentage of the town to be scum.
that's definitely been in the back of my mind when trying to figure out this game's setup.
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i remember robz talking somewhere (mafia VI, maybe? it was awhile ago) about how, in larger games, to balance a setup, you want a smaller percentage of the town to be scum.
that's definitely been in the back of my mind when trying to figure out this game's setup.
I've totally given up on figuring out the setup.
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how close am I to lynch?
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Alright, a couple of things
My vote is torn between cayvie and Cuzz.
I am relatively confident that one of the two is scum.
On me: I understand the concern that I bussed Watno because there has obviously been bussing in this game. But is a crazy concern. Let's look at where the game stood at that moment.
Watno was lynched Day 6. At that time there were 2 dead scum... probably and hopefully out of 5. (Grujah, O were dead, Watno and theorel still alive with one more). Alive were 12 players (ftl, sparky, insomniac, cayvie, shraeye, dsell, cuzz, yuma, theorel, morgrim, watno and ashersky). So at that point there were 3 scum in 12 players.
For scum to buss it would require an end in sight that would result in them winning the game. If watno had not been lynched and instead a town player day 7 we would have been at 10 players, 3 scum.
Instead we started day 7 with 2 scum, 10 players. Immediately followed by a theorel lynch to put it to 1 scum, 9 players. We have since dwindled it down to likely 1 scum out of 7 players. That just isn't a scenario for bussing. Late bussing perhaps... but not early, wagon creating, evidence promoting bussing and suggesting that I would be dumb enough to try it as scum is rather insulting to my intelligence.
In summary: if I am scum, bussing Watno would have been super, super stupid. Because even with town cred the game wasn't going to end pretty for yuma!scum.
but whatever, that is the thanks I get for being the most proactive and successful scum hunter in this game. Lynch me if you want, town is going to win either way.
vote: cuzz his interpretation of young nick still seems like the most scummy thing out there.
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I'll have you know I was the only player to target Axxle last night.
wait, is this a joke? Or serious...
Nobody targeted Axxle last night. Axxle was dead.
This combined with a thought i just had.... what if cayvie is able to either use her night power or perform a night kill? That is, she had to continue to investigate Cuzz to prove that she was watching him, and as such was unable to perform the night kill, but last night she wasn't voting for Cuzz so couldn't watch him. So was able to perform the night kill.
Actually now that I think about it further, it appears that this could be a logically explanation for me as well. When I am in hiding I am unable to perform the night kill, it is only when I receive a vote that I am able to perform it, like last night.
Except just seems way too bastard to me...
PS: Cuzz who did you investigate last night?
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Well I actually think we have 3 mislynches as town (assuming just 1 scum left).
And I think ftl is town.
So I'm pretty sure that means we win.
I rather agree with yuma, even if he's giving himself a bit too much credit for the wine-passing. But the thing about being scum is that you can be a really good scum hunter if you decide to bus.
Remind me of the YN/Cuzz issue? I remember it partially, but maybe it's time to reexamine that more.
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Vote: YoungNick. As I said before I think I got his description, and it does mention cards. But there was maybe a sinister tone to it that is hard to describe without direct quoting, and I think he definitely could be scum.
Young Nick (9) -- jotheonah, shraeye, ftl, yuma, Morgrim7, ashersky, Cuzz, O, ehunt
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Sinister tone? "Kind Person" right...
Vote: Cuzz
this post... Cuzz got to l-1 explained it half hartedly and we probably would have lynched him, but got scared by Axxle's double voting ability.
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I'll have you know I was the only player to target Axxle last night.
wait, is this a joke? Or serious...
Nobody targeted Axxle last night. Axxle was dead.
this was serious.
i targeted axxle, and robz gave me the result that only I targeted axxle.
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Vote: YoungNick. As I said before I think I got his description, and it does mention cards. But there was maybe a sinister tone to it that is hard to describe without direct quoting, and I think he definitely could be scum.
Young Nick (9) -- jotheonah, shraeye, ftl, yuma, Morgrim7, ashersky, Cuzz, O, ehunt
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Sinister tone? "Kind Person" right...
Vote: Cuzz
this post... Cuzz got to l-1 explained it half hartedly and we probably would have lynched him, but got scared by Axxle's double voting ability.
I could actually see it as a little sinister, but probably not. But it kinda makes sense that he would decide to be nice to someone by making them mafia. Grujah won the random number generator lottery, remember?
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I'll have you know I was the only player to target Axxle last night.
wait, is this a joke? Or serious...
Nobody targeted Axxle last night. Axxle was dead.
this was serious.
i targeted axxle, and robz gave me the result that only I targeted axxle.
weird.... Robz, that is weird.
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yup, weird indeed. I'm ok with Cuzz for right now, I can see the possssibility of a sinister tone in YNs PM.
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For scum to buss it would require an end in sight that would result in them winning the game. If watno had not been lynched and instead a town player day 7 we would have been at 10 players, 3 scum.
Instead we started day 7 with 2 scum, 10 players. Immediately followed by a theorel lynch to put it to 1 scum, 9 players. We have since dwindled it down to likely 1 scum out of 7 players. That just isn't a scenario for bussing. Late bussing perhaps... but not early, wagon creating, evidence promoting bussing and suggesting that I would be dumb enough to try it as scum is rather insulting to my intelligence.
In summary: if I am scum, bussing Watno would have been super, super stupid. Because even with town cred the game wasn't going to end pretty for yuma!scum.
vote: yuma
nope. this argument is all sorts of wrong. particularly the bit where you use theorel's lynch, which happened the following day, as a reason that you wouldn't bus watno.
for goodness sake, we have examples of scum seriously attacking each other day 1 on this forum. i suspect you didn't think that your attacks on watno would actually result in his lynch.
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For scum to buss it would require an end in sight that would result in them winning the game. If watno had not been lynched and instead a town player day 7 we would have been at 10 players, 3 scum.
Instead we started day 7 with 2 scum, 10 players. Immediately followed by a theorel lynch to put it to 1 scum, 9 players. We have since dwindled it down to likely 1 scum out of 7 players. That just isn't a scenario for bussing. Late bussing perhaps... but not early, wagon creating, evidence promoting bussing and suggesting that I would be dumb enough to try it as scum is rather insulting to my intelligence.
In summary: if I am scum, bussing Watno would have been super, super stupid. Because even with town cred the game wasn't going to end pretty for yuma!scum.
vote: yuma
nope. this argument is all sorts of wrong. particularly the bit where you use theorel's lynch, which happened the following day, as a reason that you wouldn't bus watno.
for goodness sake, we have examples of scum seriously attacking each other day 1 on this forum. i suspect you didn't think that your attacks on watno would actually result in his lynch.
Rage OMGUS vote: cayvie I am not coming back to this thread
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For scum to buss it would require an end in sight that would result in them winning the game. If watno had not been lynched and instead a town player day 7 we would have been at 10 players, 3 scum.
Instead we started day 7 with 2 scum, 10 players. Immediately followed by a theorel lynch to put it to 1 scum, 9 players. We have since dwindled it down to likely 1 scum out of 7 players. That just isn't a scenario for bussing. Late bussing perhaps... but not early, wagon creating, evidence promoting bussing and suggesting that I would be dumb enough to try it as scum is rather insulting to my intelligence.
In summary: if I am scum, bussing Watno would have been super, super stupid. Because even with town cred the game wasn't going to end pretty for yuma!scum.
vote: yuma
nope. this argument is all sorts of wrong. particularly the bit where you use theorel's lynch, which happened the following day, as a reason that you wouldn't bus watno.
for goodness sake, we have examples of scum seriously attacking each other day 1 on this forum. i suspect you didn't think that your attacks on watno would actually result in his lynch.
Rage OMGUS vote: cayvie I am not coming back to this thread
why are you raging if, as you say,
" Lynch me if you want, town is going to win either way."
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I'll have you know I was the only player to target Axxle last night.
wait, is this a joke? Or serious...
Nobody targeted Axxle last night. Axxle was dead.
this was serious.
i targeted axxle, and robz gave me the result that only I targeted axxle.
weird.... Robz, that is weird.
Cayvie was voting for Axxle at day's end. So yes she targeted him. That's how her power works. As she's explained several times.
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I am almost viewing yuma's ability to remember details about wagons from single digit days as a scumtell in this game.
Though that makes me feel kinda dirty.
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And I would not consider any degree of bussing too much for scumyuma. Dude built a case on me from nothing and tunneled me all game as his scumpartner in XIV.
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coool, then yuma is next up. i think he's very good at playing scum, and if somebodya said "man, i just cant FIND scum in this game, everyone is so towny" my gut reaction woudl be to look for yuma. seriously, after the chichen-game i give you mad scum respect. but also fear you.
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Do we need to talk about anything else? I'm fine hammering yuma.
I can see holes in all his defenses. He would have had to admit that Watno's description sounded scummy, since it did, and there's a description cop. If he lies, and then I get Watno's description, I out them both as scum.
BTW I just realized that scum probably left me alive because cayvie was watching me every night. Duh. Though they probably should have killed her.
Yuma's last post
Rage OMGUS vote: cayvie I am not coming back to this thread
really sounds like someone about to lose. I don't think that applies to anyone who is town.
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yeah man, hammer away. Maybe wait to hear from either Dsell or Ashersky first, actually. it's probably bad to gtake orders from druknshraeye
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Actually, I'd like to ask Dsell if Insomniac ever mentioned anything about his description in the mason QT.
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Vote Count 10.2
yuma (3) -- ashersky, shraeye, cayvie {L-1}
cayvie (1) -- yuma
Not Voting (7) -- Ftl, Dsell, Cuzz
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline is Thursday, December 6, at 3:00 PM EDT.
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If we have a tomorrow, lynch cayvie. Agreed?
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If we have a tomorrow, lynch cayvie. Agreed?
Disagree. I'd prefer ftl over cayvie.
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If we have a tomorrow, lynch cayvie. Agreed?
Disagree. I'd prefer ftl over cayvie.
me too
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If we have a tomorrow, lynch cayvie. Agreed?
Disagree. I'd prefer ftl over cayvie.
Strongly disagree with this.
Fine with lynching yuma today, if he flips town I'd VERY MUCH prefer lynching cayvie and then very probably cuzz over ftl.
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Dsell, can you respond to my previous question?
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Actually, I'd like to ask Dsell if Insomniac ever mentioned anything about his description in the mason QT.
Lemme check. Ftl is also in there and we voted someone in last night, so those people will be able to give you info from the mason QT later as well.
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Just in case you're dead before tomorrow. It's not super important, just want to try to confirm something that must be true unless I've really screwed something up.
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Actually, I'd like to ask Dsell if Insomniac ever mentioned anything about his description in the mason QT.
Lemme check. Ftl is also in there and we voted someone in last night, so those people will be able to give you info from the mason QT later as well.
Ah ok, didn't realize there were others still alive there.
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Yeah, if yuma's town, we gotta lynch cayvie. Then Cuzz, if this epic game doesn't end.
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@Cuzz
I double-checked and it doesn't look like he did, which is weird because I thought he had. He was hated though, and there'd probably be something nobles-y.
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Also, it's embarrassing how much my reads have changed since earlier in the game. The particular combo of people left plus being a tiny bit apathetic about this game has been a very very bad combo for my reads.
Also, considering that I've been on the wrong side of a TON of lynches, this game is gonna be really bad for my stats too.
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That's enough for me for now.
vote: yuma
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Where's Robz for the flip?
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He's on now. C'moooooooooooooon.
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I PM'ed him, so hopefully that pop-up box hits him.
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I PM'ed him, so hopefully that pop-up box hits him.
Haha.
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Anyone have his cell #? I am ready for this game to be over.
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Yeah but really.
If yuma is town, lynches should be:
Cayvie>Cuzz>ftl
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Yeah but really.
If yuma is town, lynches should be:
Cayvie>Cuzz>ftl
Matches my list.
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Yeah but really.
If yuma is town, lynches should be:
Cayvie>Cuzz>ftl
Matches my list.
Good!
I think our best evidence right now points to ftl being town.
I hope the speccys aren't making fun of us.
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Yeah but really.
If yuma is town, lynches should be:
Cayvie>Cuzz>ftl
Matches my list.
I'm not sure why ftl is as obvtown as you think. We can talk about this tomorrow though if need be.
I still really don't think cayvie is scum. Her description in no way resembles any scum description.
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THREAD LOCKED
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Vote Count 10.3
yuma (4) -- ashersky, shraeye, cayvie, Cuzz
cayvie (1) -- yuma
Not Voting (2) -- Ftl, Dsell
Yuma, the Town-aligned Lurking Hider, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "You've just got one of those faces... that no one notices, recognizes, or pays attention to in any way, shape, or form. You never appear to be there! You're lurking even when you're deliberately, pointedly not lurking. Are you even real? Well, anyway, being ignored is usually a good thing in these situations. Maybe no one will notice you at all..."
Night actions are due by 1:00 AM EDT on Sunday, December 2nd. I may start a few hours earlier or later depending on stuff.
NIGHT 10 START
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[flavor]Let's just get to it, shall we?[/flavor]
Ashersky, the Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
A Dominion card was also found: a Pawn. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss), Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 6
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac, Town-aligned Hated Mason, killed Night 9
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell
8. Jotheonah, Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 5
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire), Scum-aligned Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 5
11. Axxle, Town-aligned Double Voter, lynched Day 9
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz
16. Yuma, Town-aligned Lurking Hider, lynched Day 10
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis), Scum-aligned Mafia One-Shot Ninja, lynched Day 7
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7, Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slight Better Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 8
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno, Scum-aligned Mafia Goon, lynched Day 6
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 10
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
O (Voltaire)'s Description: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Nobles, belonging to O (Voltaire) or jotheonah.
Watno's Description: "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Nobles, belonging to watno or sparky5856.
Theorel (ibgtennis)'s Description: "Who is this unknown shadow slipping silenty through the night?"
Conspirator, belonging to Theorel (ibgtennis).
Morgrim7's Description: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynchs the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Shanty Town, belonging to Morgrim7.
Axxle's Description: "You've grown accustomed to receiving the following greeting: "Oh for goodness sake, you again? AGAIN, again??" They say you only get one life to live, but "they" are clearly uninformed. Regardless, no more fooling around this time. You will be heard, and you're going to make it count. Possibly twice."
Baron, belonging to Axxle or Insomniac.
Yuma's Description: "You've just got one of those faces... that no one notices, recognizes, or pays attention to in any way, shape, or form. You never appear to be there! You're lurking even when you're deliberately, pointedly not lurking. Are you even real? Well, anyway, being ignored is usually a good thing in these situations. Maybe no one will notice you at all..."
Pawn, belonging to yuma or ashersky.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 11 START
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Vote Count 11.1
Not Voting (5) -- ftl, Dsell, cayvie, Cuzz, shraeye
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, December 8th at 7:00 PM EDT.
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Vote: cayvie
wooop, woooooop, woooooooooooop
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Cuzz, do you have anything new? Or cayvie?
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nothing new
i watched yuma, nobody else targeted him
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haha
i've been thinking about this game almost constantly since nightfall. i was really sure it was yuma.
i rechecked what morgrim said, 7 total vanilla and near-vanillas lines up with what we have. so that's good.
i think it has to be cuzz?
i'm not sure at all. but he's apparently lined up for tomorrow's lynch, so that's good, i guess. my biggest worry is that ftl is going to sneak away with it somehow. but he is a lightning rod. that was demonstrated. and a scum lightning rod is awful with multiple SKs about. also just awful in general, unless it doesn't work on the scumkill.
questions: why would scum kill insomniac?? i haven't figured that one out. is there something in the mason chat that insomniac figured out?
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Vote: cayvie I guess.
Not sure if it's her or Cuzz really.
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Vote Count 11.2
Cayvie (2) -- shraeye, Dsell
Not Voting (3) -- ftl, cayvie, Cuzz
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, December 8th at 7:00 PM EDT.
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Bumpity bump.
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Got Dsell's description last night. Matches what he described and seems like a VT to me. And shraeye is certainly VT as well. So three possibilities:
1. Ftl is scum
2. Cayvie is scum
3. Yuma was onto something with his cult theory
3 seems exceedingly unlikely. If that's the case we probably lose because it's too absurd us to play under that assumption. Therefore from my perspective we win because we can lynch one of ftl/cayvie today, and either win or go to LyLo and lynch the other tomorrow. Of course from some of your perspectives lynching me is another viable plan, so it's not no easy.
I have several reasons to believe cayvie is town. Other than lightning rod being a silly scum role, I have no particular reason to believe ftl is town. So i'd like to lynch him today.
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What are the reasons why Cayvie would be town?
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What are the reasons why Cayvie would be town?
i'm a watcher; i have to target who i'm voting
does anyone actually dispute that claim?
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What are the reasons why Cayvie would be town?
i'm a watcher; i have to target who i'm voting
does anyone actually dispute that claim?
This, plus cayvie went out of her way to derail the wagon on me a few days ago when I got to L-1, when she brought up the fact that scumO and I would not both target YoungNick the same night if I were scum.
Her description also seems very townish. It specifically points out her being helpful. In fact all the descriptions I have (and I have everyone's who is still alive) seem somewhat townish except ftl's which seems kinda neutral.
I can interpret almost every part of each description I have in terms of either the player's role or meta. The only thing I don't get is that one part of ftl's description, and maybe that's the clue that he's scum and I'm just missing the precise connection.
Vote: ftl
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Got Dsell's description last night. Matches what he described and seems like a VT to me. And shraeye is certainly VT as well. So three possibilities:
1. Ftl is scum
2. Cayvie is scum
3. Yuma was onto something with his cult theory
3 seems exceedingly unlikely. If that's the case we probably lose because it's too absurd us to play under that assumption. Therefore from my perspective we win because we can lynch one of ftl/cayvie today, and either win or go to LyLo and lynch the other tomorrow. Of course from some of your perspectives lynching me is another viable plan, so it's not no easy.
I have several reasons to believe cayvie is town. Other than lightning rod being a silly scum role, I have no particular reason to believe ftl is town. So i'd like to lynch him today.
cuzz, have you claimed the full mechanics of how your role works at any point?
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Got Dsell's description last night. Matches what he described and seems like a VT to me. And shraeye is certainly VT as well. So three possibilities:
1. Ftl is scum
2. Cayvie is scum
3. Yuma was onto something with his cult theory
3 seems exceedingly unlikely. If that's the case we probably lose because it's too absurd us to play under that assumption. Therefore from my perspective we win because we can lynch one of ftl/cayvie today, and either win or go to LyLo and lynch the other tomorrow. Of course from some of your perspectives lynching me is another viable plan, so it's not no easy.
I have several reasons to believe cayvie is town. Other than lightning rod being a silly scum role, I have no particular reason to believe ftl is town. So i'd like to lynch him today.
cuzz, have you claimed the full mechanics of how your role works at any point?
I'm sure I did, but it'll be easier to just repeat than to try to find it.
Each night I PM Robz 3 names. He gives me one of their descriptions without telling me which of the three it is.
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Here's the problem I'm wrestling with currently.
Cayvie and Cuzz are almost certainly not both scum. And yet Cuzz is coming out pretty hard defending cayvie based on her description. So either he is doing this to get town credit and thus cayvie is town, or they are both town, or Cuzz is town and cayvie's description is misleading.
In the two likeliest scenarios here, cayvie is town. Huh.
Unvote
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cayvie/cuzz could both be scum. Why not? But do NOT vote ftl.
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cayvie/cuzz could both be scum. Why not? But do NOT vote ftl.
I'm starting to think Cuzz then ftl if Cuzz flips town?
But ugh I hate changing the plan that I felt SO sure of yesterday.
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Here's the problem I'm wrestling with currently.
Cayvie and Cuzz are almost certainly not both scum. And yet Cuzz is coming out pretty hard defending cayvie based on her description. So either he is doing this to get town credit and thus cayvie is town, or they are both town, or Cuzz is town and cayvie's description is misleading.
In the two likeliest scenarios here, cayvie is town. Huh.
Unvote
Why discount Cuzz being town and cayvie's description misleading? I am still down down down to
vote: cayvie
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cayvie/cuzz could both be scum. Why not? But do NOT vote ftl.
I'm starting to think Cuzz then ftl if Cuzz flips town?
But ugh I hate changing the plan that I felt SO sure of yesterday.
Let's stick with plan.
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cayvie/cuzz could both be scum. Why not? But do NOT vote ftl.
WHY?
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I mean it definitely could be that her description is misleading, but the others weren't.
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why not vote ftl?
Because if cuzz/cayvie are scum then y'all hammer for the win.
Ftl is town, as far as I can tell. I'm not as sure about cuzz/cayvie. And I'm not gonna discount there being 2 scum left.
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Got Dsell's description last night. Matches what he described and seems like a VT to me. And shraeye is certainly VT as well. So three possibilities:
1. Ftl is scum
2. Cayvie is scum
3. Yuma was onto something with his cult theory
3 seems exceedingly unlikely. If that's the case we probably lose because it's too absurd us to play under that assumption. Therefore from my perspective we win because we can lynch one of ftl/cayvie today, and either win or go to LyLo and lynch the other tomorrow. Of course from some of your perspectives lynching me is another viable plan, so it's not no easy.
I have several reasons to believe cayvie is town. Other than lightning rod being a silly scum role, I have no particular reason to believe ftl is town. So i'd like to lynch him today.
cuzz, have you claimed the full mechanics of how your role works at any point?
I'm sure I did, but it'll be easier to just repeat than to try to find it.
Each night I PM Robz 3 names. He gives me one of their descriptions without telling me which of the three it is.
does robz choose one of the three at random?
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It's possible that Cuzz is lying about sending 3 names and that he's really just a straight-up description cop.
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It's possible that Cuzz is lying about sending 3 names and that he's really just a straight-up description cop.
Maybe, I don't see what lying about the 3 names would gain him.
Or why this should prevent us from voting for cayvie.
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It's possible that Cuzz is lying about sending 3 names and that he's really just a straight-up description cop.
this is what i'm getting at, yes.
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It's possible that Cuzz is lying about sending 3 names and that he's really just a straight-up description cop.
Maybe, I don't see what lying about the 3 names would gain him.
Or why this should prevent us from voting for cayvie.
because rolecop is a normal, standard mafia role
just like joat
and roleblocker
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Because "get one out of 3" kinda sounds townier (to me anyway) that a straight description investigator.
If they are both scum, what's wrong with lynching Cuzz?
If Cayvie is scum, why is town PR Cuzz saying so adamantly that we shouldn't lynch her?
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Cuzz, have you summarized and approved descriptions from everyone you've investigated? I can't remember, but I'll go look for them.
I actually have another weird request if you have done that already. If you haven't, I'd love if you could post that.
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Because "get one out of 3" kinda sounds townier (to me anyway) that a straight description investigator.
If they are both scum, what's wrong with lynching Cuzz?
If Cayvie is scum, why is town PR Cuzz saying so adamantly that we shouldn't lynch her?
well, shraeye thinks it's possible that both cuzz and i are scum, so i can answer one of those
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why not vote ftl?
Because if cuzz/cayvie are scum then y'all hammer for the win.
Ftl is town, as far as I can tell. I'm not as sure about cuzz/cayvie. And I'm not gonna discount there being 2 scum left.
Explain this!!!
If you have some reasoning that will convince me that ftl is town I'm all ears. Because I know you're town and I will listen to you. I don't like being wrong. If you can explain to me why I'm wrong about ftl I will be more than happy to change my mind.
But stop just saying so without justification please.
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okay okay
good
i was worried that shraeye was like a godfather or something and cuzz was his partner
but last page, i was at 2 votes and cuzz didn't vote me
so that's not the case
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Got Dsell's description last night. Matches what he described and seems like a VT to me. And shraeye is certainly VT as well. So three possibilities:
1. Ftl is scum
2. Cayvie is scum
3. Yuma was onto something with his cult theory
3 seems exceedingly unlikely. If that's the case we probably lose because it's too absurd us to play under that assumption. Therefore from my perspective we win because we can lynch one of ftl/cayvie today, and either win or go to LyLo and lynch the other tomorrow. Of course from some of your perspectives lynching me is another viable plan, so it's not no easy.
I have several reasons to believe cayvie is town. Other than lightning rod being a silly scum role, I have no particular reason to believe ftl is town. So i'd like to lynch him today.
cuzz, have you claimed the full mechanics of how your role works at any point?
I'm sure I did, but it'll be easier to just repeat than to try to find it.
Each night I PM Robz 3 names. He gives me one of their descriptions without telling me which of the three it is.
does robz choose one of the three at random?
I assume it's random. I don't think he ever said so explicitly and I didn't think to ask.
-
also where is ftl
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I assume it's random. I don't think he ever said so explicitly and I didn't think to ask.
if it's random, i feel you've been exceedingly lucky to get a new description each time, right?
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Here's what I don't get. Cuzz agrees that Dsell/shraeye are town. From his perspective he assumes that he is town.
This makes lynching cayvie a very safe/reasonable bet. If cayvie is scum we win. If ftl is scum then he can push for ftl tomorrow. Why is he so set on not lynching cayvie today?
Supposing that Cuzz is scum, this would mean that he is trying to mislynch ftl, and then wants to go into the next day have vehemently said that the 3 other people are town. No way does he survive that. I'm not understanding a situation where cuzz is the only scum left.
But Cuzz/cayvie isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Nor is cayvie being the only scum, now trying to paint suspicion on cuzz.
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Of the descriptions I have, either one of them is super misleading, OR the bits in ftl's that I don't understand are a clue that he is scum.
I just really think the second is more likely.
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I assume it's random. I don't think he ever said so explicitly and I didn't think to ask.
if it's random, i feel you've been exceedingly lucky to get a new description each time, right?
maybe not, you made a big claimpost, i can calculate from that
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Here's what I don't get. Cuzz agrees that Dsell/shraeye are town. From his perspective he assumes that he is town.
This makes lynching cayvie a very safe/reasonable bet. If cayvie is scum we win. If ftl is scum then he can push for ftl tomorrow. Why is he so set on not lynching cayvie today?
Supposing that Cuzz is scum, this would mean that he is trying to mislynch ftl, and then wants to go into the next day have vehemently said that the 3 other people are town. No way does he survive that. I'm not understanding a situation where cuzz is the only scum left.
But Cuzz/cayvie isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Nor is cayvie being the only scum, now trying to paint suspicion on cuzz.
But if it's down to one of us, cayvie and Cuzz, there's a chance we'd turn on cayvie, who we've had our sights set on for quite a while, right?
-
WHY DID THEY KILL INSOMNIAC
gdi
i feel like this is an important question and i don't know why
-
Here's what I don't get. Cuzz agrees that Dsell/shraeye are town. From his perspective he assumes that he is town.
This makes lynching cayvie a very safe/reasonable bet. If cayvie is scum we win. If ftl is scum then he can push for ftl tomorrow. Why is he so set on not lynching cayvie today?
Supposing that Cuzz is scum, this would mean that he is trying to mislynch ftl, and then wants to go into the next day have vehemently said that the 3 other people are town. No way does he survive that. I'm not understanding a situation where cuzz is the only scum left.
But Cuzz/cayvie isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Nor is cayvie being the only scum, now trying to paint suspicion on cuzz.
This is a good question. And of course, if ftl flipped town I would vote for cayvie all day.
But the answer is that I'm heavily leaning toward ftl being scum. And I know that you guys don't know that I'm town. So even though we could just lynch cayvie, and then lynch ftl tomorrow, I know that you and Dsell also have to consider the possibility that I am scum.
So the way I see it is we could lynch ftl and have a good chance of winning, or lynch cayvie and then have the same debate between me and ftl tomorrow, where you guys might choose wrong, and we might lose.
-
I am trying to work out the ramifications of Frisk's role as pseudo-not-really-SK on the possibility of a scum lightningrod.
-
I assume it's random. I don't think he ever said so explicitly and I didn't think to ask.
if it's random, i feel you've been exceedingly lucky to get a new description each time, right?
I didn't have a ton of overlap in the three names that I submitted each night.
-
This game is moving so fast again.
Cuzz, have you summarized and approved descriptions from everyone you've investigated? I can't remember, but I'll go look for them.
I actually have another weird request if you have done that already. If you haven't, I'd love if you could post that.
Yea, I did, but it'll take me a sec to go find it.
What's your weird request?
And shraeye please respond to #1857. It's important.
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Ok, here are the night by night descriptions I received. I think this covers all living players except Insomniac, Dsell and Axxle. The person whose description I received (ie am reasonably certain that I received) is bolded.
Night 1 I investigated cayvie, Eevee, and ehunt. The description I got matches cayvie’s summary of her description from much later in the game. It actually sounds rather townish. It refers to her as being somewhat new, but rather helpful, and that she has a version of a previous ability that she didn’t get to use because she got killed too early in some other game.
Night 2 I investigated ashersky, shraeye, or cayvie (I had no way of knowing at the time that my N1 result was cayvie). This was the description that I was sure referred to a VT. It basically says “you aren’t able to do anything.” (Compare this to Watno’s Mafia Goon description, which mentioned a team at least). I am now quite sure that it is ashersky’s.
Night 3 I investigated Axxle, YoungNick, and sparky. I got YoungNick’s which is now public info. Nothing exciting here.
Night 4 I investigated sparky, watno, and insomniac. Take my word that the description I got referenced Volt’s huge-posting meta (remember sparky replaced Volt). It also hinted at Masonic tendencies Anyway, sparky flipped mason so not too exciting here either.
Night 5 I investigated theorel, ftl, and watno. I got ftl’s description which I know because it matches what I got last night, when I targeted only ftl due to the lightning rod. It mentions a strange power (which makes sense), but also something about being a longtime acquaintence of Robz (or perhaps just an aged individual). This was why I had asked a while ago who Robz’s very first scumteam was, in case that was the reference.
Night 6 I investigated Axxle, shraeye, and yuma. I think I mentioned at the time that this description appears to be yuma’s and says something about how no one paying any attention to him would be good. This seemed scummy to me, but could make sense with his claimed “hider only if no one votes him” role.
Night 7: Axxle, Morgrim, and shraeye. This one also reads quite VT to me, so I think it must be shraeye’s. I just feel like Morgrim would have had more content in his description than this one contained.
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So the way I see it is we could lynch ftl and have a good chance of winning, or lynch cayvie and then have the same debate between me and ftl tomorrow, where you guys might choose wrong, and we might lose.
I'm most comfortable lynching cayvie today and then picking between you/ftl tomorrow. I'm not as dead set on lynching you over ftl, now that I think about things.
Here's what's uncomfortable for me. The argument that cayvie is town is that she's verifiably watcher. Big deal. I can imagine scenarios where watching is beneficial to scum to pick out power roles. The argument that ftl is town is basicallly that he's a lightning rod. That sounds like a terrible scum role so I assume he's town. It helps also that he's in the Nobles quicktopic, as he was read as town by Insomniac and company. So if I go by role only, I see ftl's role as the least useful for scum (hence, why I think he's town).
But for Cuzz, he's verifiably the role that he claims to be, and I can see how that role could be useful to scum, just like cayvie's. However, through him way more than the others, I actually can give him towncredit for how he's acting.
Here's what I don't get. Cuzz agrees that Dsell/shraeye are town. From his perspective he assumes that he is town.
This makes lynching cayvie a very safe/reasonable bet. If cayvie is scum we win. If ftl is scum then he can push for ftl tomorrow. Why is he so set on not lynching cayvie today?
Supposing that Cuzz is scum, this would mean that he is trying to mislynch ftl, and then wants to go into the next day have vehemently said that the 3 other people are town. No way does he survive that. I'm not understanding a situation where cuzz is the only scum left.
But Cuzz/cayvie isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Nor is cayvie being the only scum, now trying to paint suspicion on cuzz.
Here is one reason why I think cuzz isn't the only scum (however, his actions today could correspond to a cuzz/cayvie scumteam actually).
Additionally, he provided info that me or ashersky were town way back when when we were both in trouble. That's unprompted pro-town help.
I think the best option is to lynch cayvie tonight, I fully expect her to flip scum. If the game isn't over, lynch cuzz who is cayvie's partner. If the game is over, celebrate.
If somehow I'm wrong and cayvie flips town, then I'm ready to hear a debate between ftl and cayvie. I expect either me or Dsell to be the nightkill tonight, so the other will be the moderator. I'm not deadset on ftl lynch or cuzz lynch in this scenario yet.
-
This game is moving so fast again.
Cuzz, have you summarized and approved descriptions from everyone you've investigated? I can't remember, but I'll go look for them.
I actually have another weird request if you have done that already. If you haven't, I'd love if you could post that.
Yea, I did, but it'll take me a sec to go find it.
What's your weird request?
And shraeye please respond to #1857. It's important.
My weird request is to, after you post your approved summaries, to make another set of summaries and get those approved as well. Try to make both summaries accurate to the original but not too similar to each other. Basically, let's analyze the heck out of these things to try to figure out where the scum is.
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Cuzz BEFORE YOU DO THIS I'd like cayvie to make a summary of her own description and get it approved.
Ftl just won't be around in a timely manner to do this, probably.
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And shraeye please respond to #1857. It's important.
About why I think ftl is town. I explained some of it above. There may have been other reasons, but I can't recall them right now; I just know that I started today with the most sure of feelings that ftl is town. His role probably has the most to do with it. Lightning Rod is a town power in my eyes, because it's soooo useless (and possibly just plain terrible) for a scum power.
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Cuzz BEFORE YOU DO THIS I'd like cayvie to make a summary of her own description and get it approved.
Ftl just won't be around in a timely manner to do this, probably.
i mean, i did this during my role-claim, do you want me to come up with another one?
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Cuzz BEFORE YOU DO THIS I'd like cayvie to make a summary of her own description and get it approved.
Ftl just won't be around in a timely manner to do this, probably.
i mean, i did this during my role-claim, do you want me to come up with another one?
No lemme go find it. But it's a close paraphrase?
It's just such a pain to find anything in this game. :/
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Cuzz BEFORE YOU DO THIS I'd like cayvie to make a summary of her own description and get it approved.
Ftl just won't be around in a timely manner to do this, probably.
i mean, i did this during my role-claim, do you want me to come up with another one?
No lemme go find it. But it's a close paraphrase?
It's just such a pain to find anything in this game. :/
Cayvie paraphrased her description a long time ago. That was how I knew that the one I had learned on N1 was hers in the first place.
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What parts of my description were confusing? The part about me being a longtime friend of Robz was because I was back in the first forum mafia game with him, I think. That game was, if I remember, me, Robz, ThisIsNotASmile, Theory, O, Axxle, Ozle. I was VT and Robz was jailkeep.
New summary of my description: it mentions how Robz and I go way back, and how I have a weird role. And how that's appropriate for me.
I'll just sheep shraeye and dsell on who to lynch...
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Vote Count 11.3
Cayvie (1) -- shraeye
ftl (1) -- Cuzz
Not Voting (3) -- ftl, cayvie, Dsell
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, December 8th at 7:00 PM EDT.
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oh
oh!
what if he thinks I might be a watcher
if he's scum, he knows i'm town, and telling the truth with my role hints.
Alright going back and doing a little bit of actual scumhunting *shudder* I came across this post from cayvie regarding O. She's probably already brought it up in the last 10 pages sometime, so sorry about that, but it's a good argument. ScumO was quick to claim that he roleblocked YN after YN said he got a no result. It seems odd for cayvie and O to be scumbuddies together and both target the same person. It looks like scumO was worried that towncayvie would out him so he outed himself first. No need to do that as buddies.
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oh
oh!
what if he thinks I might be a watcher
if he's scum, he knows i'm town, and telling the truth with my role hints.
Alright going back and doing a little bit of actual scumhunting *shudder* I came across this post from cayvie regarding O. She's probably already brought it up in the last 10 pages sometime, so sorry about that, but it's a good argument. ScumO was quick to claim that he roleblocked YN after YN said he got a no result. It seems odd for cayvie and O to be scumbuddies together and both target the same person. It looks like scumO was worried that towncayvie would out him so he outed himself first. No need to do that as buddies.
haha
i remember making that post
i was like "i think i got rolecopped. how can i make an argument to that effect without completely role-claiming?"
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oh
oh!
what if he thinks I might be a watcher
if he's scum, he knows i'm town, and telling the truth with my role hints.
Alright going back and doing a little bit of actual scumhunting *shudder* I came across this post from cayvie regarding O. She's probably already brought it up in the last 10 pages sometime, so sorry about that, but it's a good argument. ScumO was quick to claim that he roleblocked YN after YN said he got a no result. It seems odd for cayvie and O to be scumbuddies together and both target the same person. It looks like scumO was worried that towncayvie would out him so he outed himself first. No need to do that as buddies.
I agree that this also implies that cayvie is probably town.
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soooo....lynch cayvie, right?
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soooo....lynch cayvie, right?
There are more situations in which Cuzz is scum, right?
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soooo....lynch cayvie, right?
There are more situations in which Cuzz is scum, right?
Which ones?
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And of course we could both be town. Obviously I think we should lynch cayvie over me, but I really think we should lynch ftl first.
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It doesn't seem to me like there are more situations where Cuzz is scum. I'm not sure how you get that. My faith in the success of a cayvie lynch has not faltered.
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Either:
Cuzz and Cayvie are both scum. Cuzz defending cayvie makes sense in this situation. Lynching Cuzz is fine in this situation.
Cuzz is scum and Cayvie is town. Cuzz is defending cayvie for town cred and to make sure that cayvie makes it to LYLO. Cuzz lynch is fine.
Cuzz is town and Cayvie is scum. Cuzz is honestly defending cayvie because he really thinks cayvie's town, ie cayvie's description is very deceptive. This is possible. Obviously Cuzz lynch is bad.
And of course they could both be town and ftl is scum, but this seems unlikely. Cuzz or cayvie could also be scumbuddies with ftl but this seems similarly unlikely.
And there's the fact that if cayvie is scum, that means that she targeted the same person her scumbuddy (O) roleblocked (Young Nick). O then chose to reveal that he roleblocked YN...why? If cayvie is town, it makes sense that O would be worried that he was watched.
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I know it's daunting but can we try to go back and do a little wagon analysis before lynching anyone? I'll see if I have time later today.
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I know it's daunting but can we try to go back and do a little wagon analysis before lynching anyone? I'll see if I have time later today.
Yeah I did some small wagon analysis before, and I couldn't draw heavy conclusions. Feel free to post what you have, it might help sort things out.
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Ok, I've done so far as compiling the Day-end vote status for both all living players and all Mafia:
Mafia lynches:
D1 (lynched Grujah):
Grujah*: Watno*, ftl, Cuzz
YoungNick: cayvie
jotheonah: Voltaire* (O)
ftl: ibgtennis* (theorel)
Glooble: Grujah*
Morgrim: Dsell, shraeye
D5 (lynched O):
O*: O*, Dsell, shraeye
Cuzz: cayvie
Not voting: Cuzz, theorel*, Watno*, ftl
D6 (lynched Watno):
Watno*: ftl, theorel*, shraeye
ftl: Dsell
ashersky: Watno*
Cuzz: cayvie
Not voting: Cuzz
D7 (lynched theorel):
theorel*: Dsell
Cuzz: cayvie
Not voting: ftl, shraeye, Cuzz, theorel*
Town lynches:
D4 (lynched YoungNick):
YoungNick: shraeye, ftl, Cuzz, O*
Cuzz: cayvie
ashersky: Watno*, theorel*
Not voting: Dsell
D8 (lynched Morgrim):
Morgrim: Dsell
ftl: cayvie
Not voting: Cuzz, ftl, shraeye
D9 (lynched Axxle):
Axxle: shraeye, Dsell
yuma: cayvie, ftl
Not voting: Cuzz
D10 (lynched yuma):
yuma: Cuzz, cayvie, shraeye
Not voting: Dsell, ftl
Serial Killer lynches:
D2 (lynched TheMunch):
TheMunch: ftl, shraeye, Dsell
ashersky: Cuzz, Watno*
ehunt: cayvie
Not voting: O*, theorel*
D3 (lynched Captain_Frisk):
Captain_Frisk: Cuzz, theorel*, ftl
sparky: Watno*
YoungNick: Dsell, shraeye, cayvie
Not voting: O*
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wagon analysis is gonna make me look bad
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wagon analysis is gonna make me look bad
I don't think anyone puts much stock in wagon analysis on you, looking for bussing against you would be more enlightening.
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[flavor]With only five left, paranoia was king. "The scum is Cuzz!" said one. "No, it's Cayvie!" said another. "Not at all, ftl is the scum!" said someone else. "You're all wrong and the game is rigged, the scum is shraeye, or Dsell!" said someone else. "I am going to be so mad if the town blows it now," said yet another person.
Too bad none of these voices belonged to still-living players.
And the silence continued.[/flavor]
Vote Count 11.4
Cayvie (1) -- shraeye
ftl (1) -- Cuzz
Not Voting (3) -- ftl, cayvie, Dsell
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, December 8th at 7:00 PM EDT.[/i][/color]
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hate this.
hate it hate it. i'm voting based on roles, not on reads. but my read has only been good on O this game (twice!). i guess i was right about ehunt way back when but that was a gimme.
vote: cuzz
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Guys think about this. Ftl is barely here. Even if he is town, which I don't think he is, is he going to help at LyLo?
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Guys think about this. Ftl is barely here. Even if he is town, which I don't think he is, is he going to help at LyLo?
well, for me, it's not an issue
i'm going to vote for him if he and i are somehow still alive.
the thing that worries me the most is that shraeye seems 100% convinced i'm scum, and if he and i are alive, he's going to vote for me.
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ok, unvote, dammit
ftl was active on these forums today at 3:30: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;u=326
and yet he hasn't posted in this thread for an entire week. that's just kinda unacceptable, especially at this point in the game.
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Robz are people allowed to claim their full role name?
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Guys think about this. Ftl is barely here. Even if he is town, which I don't think he is, is he going to help at LyLo?
Bad argument. All he has to do at lylo is put a vote on the person who's not me/dsell and not himself. Then get the cleared towny to cast the deciding vote.
Vote: cayvie
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Guys think about this. Ftl is barely here. Even if he is town, which I don't think he is, is he going to help at LyLo?
Bad argument. All he has to do at lylo is put a vote on the person who's not me/dsell and not himself. Then get the cleared towny to cast the deciding vote.
Vote: cayvie
At LyLo there will presumably be one of you and Dsell and then the two of me ftl and cayvie that we don't lynch, assuming that we lynch incorrectly today. At LyLo you/Dsell will then need to decide which of the others is scum.
You're now saying that you have no problem with one of those two people being essentially silent and giving you no further reads on them? Do you want the two remaining non-VT's to just vote each other and then sit back quietly until you or Dsell singlehandedly ends the game one way or the other?
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I'm really getting the feeling that we're missing something obvious and people in the spec QT are screaming furiously at me.
I suspect I'm gonna feel like its all my fault if we lose.
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Don't worry, it'll all be my fault and I'll bear the full responsibility. Just lynch cayvie.
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Robz are people allowed to claim their full role name?
Yes.
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Robz are people allowed to claim their full role name?
Yes.
Can we all do this? I don't think everyone has. Mine is just Description Cop.
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Robz are people allowed to claim their full role name?
Yes.
Can we all do this? I don't think everyone has. Mine is just Description Cop.
Everyone is allowed to claim their true Role name and Alignment. If you were a Town-aligned Odious Baboon, you could say "I am a town-aligned Odious Baboon." It says this in the introductory rules.
Descriptions and ability descriptions must be paraphrased.
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Cayvie's vote/unvote on me earlier also gives me a townread on her btw.
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Don't worry, it'll all be my fault and I'll bear the full responsibility. Just lynch cayvie.
dammit shraeye
i'm town
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a town-aligned redemptive watcher to be precise
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I really don't want to lynch ftl, so I suppose I'm staking the game on his townhood.
That said, if I am right then town'll win barring super weird circumstances.
Still prefer a cuzz lynch today, but I suppose I'm willing to concede and go for a cayvie lynch.
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I really don't want to lynch ftl, so I suppose I'm staking the game on his townhood.
That said, if I am right then town'll win barring super weird circumstances.
Still prefer a cuzz lynch today, but I suppose I'm willing to concede and go for a cayvie lynch.
shraeye is the only player who wants a cayvie lynch today!
ftl needs to show up
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Man, I'm not ok with a cayvie lynch either.
Vote: Cuzz
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The question is what to do if Cuzz flips town. I don't want to lynch either cayvie or ftl.
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Vote Count 11.4
Cayvie (1) -- shraeye
ftl (1) -- Cuzz
Cuzz (1) -- Dsell
Not Voting (2) -- ftl, cayvie
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, December 8th at 7:00 PM EDT.
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Robz, go play that Tens10n game.
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Also, I still would like a better "paraphrased" version of at least ftl, cayvie, and Cuzz' own description.
Like, all those already posted are really short summaries, I am hoping for a really close paraphrase.
Think translating it into another language and then back into English. Same structure, slightly altered wording. I want to analyze these puppies. The summaries we have so far are no good for that.
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The question is what to do if Cuzz flips town. I don't want to lynch either cayvie or ftl.
This makes no sense because one of them is scum. And Cuzz will flip town so think of a plan.
I really don't understand why Dsell and shraeye are so convinced ftl is town. yuma-type cult conspiracies are starting to dance in my head.
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Are you opposed to getting paraphrases approved? Would like to see those.
Btw I'm gonna be unavailable from tomorrow evening until the deadline, which is on Saturday.
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Also, I still would like a better "paraphrased" version of at least ftl, cayvie, and Cuzz' own description.
Like, all those already posted are really short summaries, I am hoping for a really close paraphrase.
Think translating it into another language and then back into English. Same structure, slightly altered wording. I want to analyze these puppies. The summaries we have so far are no good for that.
Dsell, do you want these from me or from each person themselves?
in either case, mine paraphrased is:
"You're not a veteran, and that's ok, however to get any real use out of this role, you'll need to have other players assist, or really do your homework."
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Actually at this point I'd like to hear your version first and then have that person confirm that it is indeed accurate or make a paraphrase of their own.
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I really don't want to lynch ftl, so I suppose I'm staking the game on his townhood.
That said, if I am right then town'll win barring super weird circumstances.
Still prefer a cuzz lynch today, but I suppose I'm willing to concede and go for a cayvie lynch.
Ok, let's do Cuzz. One of us will hear the ftl/cayvie debate tomorrow.
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Actually at this point I'd like to hear your version first and then have that person confirm that it is indeed accurate or make a paraphrase of their own.
Ok, not bothering to get these approved since I think I understand what appropriate paraphrasing is, and I have to leave for the night soon.
cayvie:
"You're still kind of new, but everyone can see that you're smart and helpful. Here's a role that's similar to a previous one you once got. Hope you can live long enough to get more out of it in this game."
ftl:
"You're someone Robz has known for a long time, so he's singling you out with a crazy role. And for you, something crazy is rather appropriate."
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ftl are you there?
He posted something earlier. Frustrating and a bit sad that he's just passing on this thread altogether, it would be exceedingly frustrating if he was doing it as scum. But it wouldn't be the first time (see BMV, especially day 1).
Can we get a prod Robz? Is that still a thing this late in the game?
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ftl are you there?
He posted something earlier. Frustrating and a bit sad that he's just passing on this thread altogether, it would be exceedingly frustrating if he was doing it as scum. But it wouldn't be the first time (see BMV, especially day 1).
Can we get a prod Robz? Is that still a thing this late in the game?
Prod sent.
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I really don't want to lynch ftl, so I suppose I'm staking the game on his townhood.
That said, if I am right then town'll win barring super weird circumstances.
Still prefer a cuzz lynch today, but I suppose I'm willing to concede and go for a cayvie lynch.
Ok, let's do Cuzz. One of us will hear the ftl/cayvie debate tomorrow.
Who are you gonna lynch tomorrow if you lynch me today? Because if it's cayvie we lose.
I wanna assign you guys homework and have you write up a paragraph on why ftl is more likely town than both me and cayvie.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
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Well of course I'm reconsidering the cayvie/ftl thing, but a scum lightningrod is just so crazy, unless ftl's whole role was designed so that he could be the sponge of all suspicion (maybe he's investigation proof too or something, who knows) because his description is not scummy. However it's not explicitly townie either and cayvie's is. So yes, you are getting to me and I am reconsidering.
But man, I have written those paragraphs in the past.
(Apparently when I am tired I turn into Donald X)
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The description Cuzz posted is close enough, IMO. I didn't get the impression that Robz said he was "singling me out" but I suppose I can see that reading of it.
Vote: Cuzz , can we please just finish this game already so Robz stops prodding me about this thread and I can put forum games on ignore entirely...
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Vote Count 11.5
Cayvie (1) -- shraeye
ftl (1) -- Cuzz
Cuzz (2) -- Dsell, ftl
Not Voting (1) -- cayvie
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, December 8th at 7:00 PM EDT.
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fingers crossed
vote: Cuzz
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THREAD LOCKED.
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Vote Count 11.6
Cayvie (1) -- shraeye
ftl (1) -- Cuzz
Cuzz (3) -- Dsell, ftl, cayvie
[flavor]"Yes!" roared the town. "Yes!" roared the dead. "Yes!" roared the voices of all that was good in the world.
"No," answered the universe, its cruelty palpable.[/flavor]
Cuzz, the Town-aligned Description Cop, has been lynched. By way of interrogation, you learned his Description, which is as follows: "You are relatively new around these parts, which is fine. But to use this power effectively, you're going to need to do a lot of research, or ask for help."
Night actions are due by 1:00 AM EDT on Sunday, December 9th.
NIGHT 11 START
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[flavor]26 were invited to the Courtyard masquerade. Yet now, only 3 remain. At this late hour, who will discover the truth before it's too late? Not Dsell, sadly.[/flavor]
Dsell, the Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
A Dominion card was also found: a Pawn. It must have belonged to one of the people who died yesterday, or in the night...
Status
1. Ftl
2. sparky5856 (replaced Voltgloss), Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 6
3. Eevee, Town-aligned Semi-Naive Alignment Cop, killed Night 1
4. Grujah, Scum-aligned Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades, lynched Day 1
5. Insomniac, Town-aligned Hated Mason, killed Night 9
6. Glooble, Town-aligned Masonic Couple, killed Night 1
7. Dsell, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 11
8. Jotheonah, Town-aligned Mason, killed Night 5
9. Young Nick, Town-aligned Card Cop, lynched Day 4
10. O (2) (replaced Voltaire), Scum-aligned Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 5
11. Axxle, Town-aligned Double Voter, lynched Day 9
12. O (1), Town-aligned Masonic Couple and One-Shot Doctor, killed Night 1
13. Cayvie
14. Shraeye
15. Cuzz, Town-aligned Description Cop, lynched Day 11
16. Yuma, Town-aligned Lurking Hider, lynched Day 10
17. theorel (replaced ibgtennis), Scum-aligned Mafia One-Shot Ninja, lynched Day 7
18. TheMunch, Scum-aligned Serial Killer, lynched Day 2
19. Morgrim7, Town-aligned Hated, Restricted, Yet Slight Better Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 8
20. EHalcyon, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3
21. Watno, Scum-aligned Mafia Goon, lynched Day 6
22. Galzria, Town-aligned Cupbearing Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
23. Captain_Frisk, Wannabe Serial Killer and Tracker (No Alignment), lynched Day 3
24. ehunt, Town-aligned Thirsty Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
25. ashersky, Town-aligned Vanilla Townie, killed Night 10
Grujah's Description: "Congratulations! You won (lost?) the random number generator contest. Have fun!"
Coppersmith, belonging to Grujah, Eevee, Glooble, or O.
TheMunch's Description: "Who are you? Where do you come from? Do you prefer your steak medium rare, or... (egads) bloody? This is a cynical, antsy group of folks you've stumbled across, and they may just lynch a new guy for the heck of it. You sure hope that doesn't happen. You have some work to do, and it might be... (egads!) bloody."
Jester, belonging to TheMunch or Galzria.
Captain_Frisk's Description: "You just love being a serial killer, you sick maniac, and you want to tell the whole world. "I'm the serial killer, I'm the serial killer!" you shout, as the other Scum members just shake their heads at you. But you can't help it; you just love murder--senseless, mass murder--so much! The only problem here is, you're not a serial killer... right?"
Scout, belonging to eHalcyon or Captain_Frisk.
Young Nick's Description: "What a kind person you are to invite a new friend over to play cards! Your role should be obvious..."
Great Hall, belonging to Young Nick or ehunt.
O (Voltaire)'s Description: "So you've got a game and a half under your belt. Big deal. You think that means you're ready for the big leagues, kid? Well, let's see if you can handle some nightly responsibilities."
Nobles, belonging to O (Voltaire) or jotheonah.
Watno's Description: "Just because you can't do anything special doesn't mean you're an unimportant part of the team, new-ish guy."
Nobles, belonging to watno or sparky5856.
Theorel (ibgtennis)'s Description: "Who is this unknown shadow slipping silenty through the night?"
Conspirator, belonging to Theorel (ibgtennis).
Morgrim7's Description: "Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. But nobody has to tell you that; after all, you're not the one who serially mislynchs the crazy guy--everybody else does that! They called you mad, they called you reckless, they called you anti-Town, whatever that means. Well, you'll teach them a lesson. Or rather, they'll teach themselves a lesson, if they lynch you again. In the meantime here's a meager incentive to change your ways."
Shanty Town, belonging to Morgrim7.
Axxle's Description: "You've grown accustomed to receiving the following greeting: "Oh for goodness sake, you again? AGAIN, again??" They say you only get one life to live, but "they" are clearly uninformed. Regardless, no more fooling around this time. You will be heard, and you're going to make it count. Possibly twice."
Baron, belonging to Axxle or Insomniac.
Yuma's Description: "You've just got one of those faces... that no one notices, recognizes, or pays attention to in any way, shape, or form. You never appear to be there! You're lurking even when you're deliberately, pointedly not lurking. Are you even real? Well, anyway, being ignored is usually a good thing in these situations. Maybe no one will notice you at all..."
Pawn, belonging to yuma or ashersky.
Cuzz's Description: "You are relatively new around these parts, which is fine. But to use this power effectively, you're going to need to do a lot of research, or ask for help."
Pawn, belonging to Cuzz or Dsell.
THREAD UNLOCKED -- DAY 12 START
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Vote Count 12.1
Not Voting (3) -- Ftl, cayvie, shraeye
With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch. Deadline is Monday, December 17th, at 1:00 PM EDT.
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Robz has talked me down from the mess of vitriol I was prepared to spew at ftl for his performance in this thread.
So here's the postcount in this thread. Are you ready?
cayvie: 217
shraeye: 164
ftl: 24
Twenty-four posts over two months.
His last four posts?
Once on November 23rd.
Once on November 29th.
Once on December 3rd.
Once on December 7th.
Pretty nifty for the end of a massive game where the rules request for us to post every 48 hours, and to post notice if we're not going to be able to.
Now, I thought he was town. I didn't see Robz putting a role as strange as a scum lightning rod in this game. I thought, "well, it's okay, we're going to win anyway."
But now I know he is the last scum. This has not been the behavior of a disinterested townie; this is intentional scum play. And as such, it's pretty disgusting. It's awfully close to flat-out cheating.
Ugh. It's really hard for me to avoid getting personal here. Ftl, I'm really angry at the thought that you'd be allowed to coast to victory while violating game rules.
-
And fine, vote: ftl for all the good it'll do.
If you're somehow scum, shraeye, congrats, you've earned it.
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here's a fun post of his from day 1.
WTF at that votecount! A doublevoter on the wagon already?
unvote
Can we get another votecount as people unvote individually, robz? :) Unless it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, then we won't catch him this way.
eHalc: morgrim started posting more reasonably in MIX, where he actually posted and scumhunted during the day. Of course, his choice of nightkills was still...questionable... but still. I do not thing morgrim posting long things and trying to scumhunt is a scumtell.
Nor is wanting to hear from new players, Munch.
I have to say, in joth's BM, f.ds meta really pissed me off. Mid-day on that game, when a wagon was forming on me, robz basically told me to lurk and stop posting. And I did, and the wagon just went away and some random townie got lynched. I hated that, though it worked. I'm going to srsly push for lynching lurkers because that meta, just, ugh. Not posting should *not* be safe.
so Vote: YoungNick
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Cuzz's paraphrases of our role descriptions: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4983.msg139834#msg139834)
"Night 1 I investigated cayvie, Eevee, and ehunt. The description I got matches cayvie’s summary of her description from much later in the game. It actually sounds rather townish. It refers to her as being somewhat new, but rather helpful, and that she has a version of a previous ability that she didn’t get to use because she got killed too early in some other game."
"Night 5 I investigated theorel, ftl, and watno. I got ftl’s description which I know because it matches what I got last night, when I targeted only ftl due to the lightning rod. It mentions a strange power (which makes sense), but also something about being a longtime acquaintence of Robz (or perhaps just an aged individual). This was why I had asked a while ago who Robz’s very first scumteam was, in case that was the reference."
and things Cuzz had to say
What are the reasons why Cayvie would be town?
i'm a watcher; i have to target who i'm voting
does anyone actually dispute that claim?
This, plus cayvie went out of her way to derail the wagon on me a few days ago when I got to L-1, when she brought up the fact that scumO and I would not both target YoungNick the same night if I were scum.
Her description also seems very townish. It specifically points out her being helpful. In fact all the descriptions I have (and I have everyone's who is still alive) seem somewhat townish except ftl's which seems kinda neutral.
I can interpret almost every part of each description I have in terms of either the player's role or meta. The only thing I don't get is that one part of ftl's description, and maybe that's the clue that he's scum and I'm just missing the precise connection.
Vote: ftl
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Oh, oh, oh oh oh
could the whole "robz and ftl go way back" business be a reference to Ozle's Murder Mystery Mafia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3633.1825)?
Robz was a town lightning rod in that game. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3633.msg88746#msg88746)
ftl was scum and the murderer. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3633.msg88925#msg88925)
(i was town and died night 1)
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And fine, vote: ftl for all the good it'll do.
If you're somehow scum, shraeye, congrats, you've earned it.
Naw, i'm not scum. But you already knew that, didnt you?
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And fine, vote: ftl for all the good it'll do.
If you're somehow scum, shraeye, congrats, you've earned it.
Naw, i'm not scum. But you already knew that, didnt you?
i mean, morgrim claimed 7 vanilla townies, you claimed one, and there are six in the list
so probably not
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you can see it was all part of my evil scum plan, shraeye, leaving you alive
you who has pushed for my lynch for the past three days, over dsell, who thought i might be town
all part of my plan
mwa ha ha ha fucking ha
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you can see it was all part of my evil scum plan, shraeye, leaving you alive
you who has pushed for my lynch for the past three days, over dsell, who thought i might be town
all part of my plan
mwa ha ha ha fucking ha
hahahaha, i love it!
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also i guess i certainly know it now, so i don't feel so bad for thinking really awful things about ftl
-
before you condescendingly hammer me and then hate yourself upon the flip, shraeye, i do have an ace up my sleeve to bring out. it's of dubious morality, so i don't want to do it unless i have to. but i do care more about winning this game than being a super nice person.
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here's another thing, shraeye.
click on print, and look up all of ftl's posts.
you can see that he's been lurking consistently for the past couple months. he's violated the 48-hour restriction at least seven times in the past two months. and yet robz hasn't looked for a replacement.
why do you think that is?
we've got several new players available on these forums.
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you can see that he's been lurking consistently for the past couple months. he's violated the 48-hour restriction at least seven times in the past two months. and yet robz hasn't looked for a replacement.
why do you think that is?
Well here's something I don't know the answer to. You imply that you do though.
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you can see that he's been lurking consistently for the past couple months. he's violated the 48-hour restriction at least seven times in the past two months. and yet robz hasn't looked for a replacement.
why do you think that is?
Well here's something I don't know the answer to. You imply that you do though.
well, would you want to make someone replace in as the last scum in a 25-player game?
how about as a townie with a one-shot ability?
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Hmmm, you answered an implied question with an explicit one (two, actually). Very well, let's pretend I'm dense and don't know the answers to your questions.
What would you answer to them?
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Hmmm, you answered an implied question with an explicit one (two, actually). Very well, let's pretend I'm dense and don't know the answers to your questions.
What would you answer to them?
really?
not a fan of socrates, i see
well, alright.
as the moderator of a game, i know it's difficult enough to replace in lategame, more difficult to replace in as scum, and even more difficult to replace in as scum on the (apparently) losing team. i would be loath to force a player to replace in as the last remaining scum on day 8, 9, or 10, simply because i doubt it would be very fun for that player.
similarly, i would be less willing to modkill the last remaining scum for rules violations that i could convince myself to ignore--it sucks to decide the outcome of the game with a modkill.
but it's what should have happened long ago.
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oh, and shraeye: why don't you go to ftl's profile and check out his post history. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=326)
he's been plenty active on these forums this whole time.
he's just avoiding this thread.
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oh, and shraeye: why don't you go to ftl's profile and check out his post history. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=326)
he's been plenty active on these forums this whole time.
he's just avoiding this thread.
oh, I know his post history.
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Ugh, I get prodded about this game and find that now I'm accused of being a cheater? Seriously?
Yeah, I wanted to be replaced a while back. There had already been two replacements and one wannabe-replacement before me, so that wasn't going to happen. So I'm still sort of here, a month or two after I realized I didn't actually want to participate in any more forum mafia. I'd hoped this game would be over a long long time ago; it's the last one I'm still in. I'm plenty active on the boards, just not in forum games, here I've just been sheeping the obvtown and that's basically it. Sorry I'm not participating enough for you to latch onto anything.
Anyway, whatever, cayvie wants to make this personal and I kind of don't. Vote: cayvie and I'm done here, which I guess means I'll be modkilled in 24 or 48 hours or whatever for not posting as per robz's latest more sternly-worded prod. But the game will be over before then anyway once shraeye votes for someone.
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oh, you're not paying attention this game?
is that why you killed Insomniac, who was hated and could have helped you win earlier?
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because i can promise you this, no matter how much WIFOM i thought i could muster up, i would never under any circumstances kill a hated townie with no night action as scum.
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no relevant night action, i suppose i should say
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god, it's really easy to avoid questions, isn't it, when you just completely ignore this thread and go post elsewhere. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5836.msg149904#msg149904)
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hey, shraeye, read this link:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=How_to_Win_as_Mafia:_Calculated_Inaction
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particularly point 10:
"Taper off your posting as you go. Do not suddenly disappear, just gradually reduce your rate of posting. Try to keep large but infrequent posts at first, but later shorter posts will do. You want to appear like you are losing interest in the game. You also want to have an excuse for dodging the nightkills. Living too long being too town will be problematic."
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Ugh, I get prodded about this game and find that now I'm accused of being a cheater? Seriously?
Yeah, I wanted to be replaced a while back. There had already been two replacements and one wannabe-replacement before me, so that wasn't going to happen. So I'm still sort of here, a month or two after I realized I didn't actually want to participate in any more forum mafia. I'd hoped this game would be over a long long time ago; it's the last one I'm still in. I'm plenty active on the boards, just not in forum games, here I've just been sheeping the obvtown and that's basically it. Sorry I'm not participating enough for you to latch onto anything.
Anyway, whatever, cayvie wants to make this personal and I kind of don't. Vote: cayvie and I'm done here, which I guess means I'll be modkilled in 24 or 48 hours or whatever for not posting as per robz's latest more sternly-worded prod. But the game will be over before then anyway once shraeye votes for someone.
god, robz, can you just modkill this scum already?
you and i both know this is completely unacceptable behavior.
i just don't want to play on a site where "violate the rules and hope the mods are too nice to punish me for it" is a viable strategy.
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wow.
just realized
in that quote, ftl promises that he's not going to post on this thread again.
this is a direct violation of rule 6, which i have quoted before, but which reads
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
by that statement, he is clearly not aiming for one post every 48 hous.
so.
shraeye.
if he's telling the truth there, then he's cheating and should be modkilled.
if he's lying, well, what do you think his alignment is?
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Gamebreaking Stratagem Alert
Alright.
Shraeye, this plan involves you staying up late. Are you cool with that?
ftl has announced that he does not plan on posting anymore in this thread.
Presumably, if he goes 48 hours after that post with no posts, there's going to be a modkill.
So. Here's the plan, shraeye, tell me if you're down for it.
We wait. 48 hours after ftl's post, I post my entire role PM in this thread, a modkillable offense.
Both ftl and I get modkilled.
Town wins.
You stay up late to observe, so you can hammer me if I'm not holding up my end of the bargain.
Yes, I realize that this plan involves me getting modkilled, and modkilled players on the winning team don't record victories.
I would easily sacrifice my individual victory to make sure that ftl is not rewarded for cheating.
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@cayvie I don't think anything that drastic is necessary.
Also, I've read teh Calculated Inaction article before.
-
Mods are currently discussing alleged rules violations. Thread locked in the meantime.
-
Okay, here's where we stand.
Voltgloss and I concur that NO RULES VIOLATION HAS TAKEN PLACE. Here are the stated rules with respect to the issue of inactivity:
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 72 hours of no activity or upon request after 48 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
It is not our reading of the rules that they have been violated so pervasively that a modkill is required. Note that the rules never actually call for modkilling a player for inactivity.
Whether the rules should be altered, moving forward, is something to discuss post-game.
An important aspect of the rules regarding inactivity, in my view, is that they are enforced per request of another player. I have issued prods when asked by another player. And per request of another player now, I will enforce the 48 hour inactivity rule more vigorously. Any player who has already received any number of previous prods who does not post for 48 hours (without any VLA explanation) will be subject to modkill.
FWIW, modkills cannot happen at exactly the same time, in the event that one modkill or another would cause the game to end.
I will not prevent you from discussing this further if you wish, but please be very careful not to quote any private conversation with a moderator.
THREAD UNLOCKED.
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okay.
okay.
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i hope it's at least clear, at this point, that i'm not blustering scum, shraeye. that my feelings here are genuine.
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vote: ftl
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THREAD LOCKED
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Final Vote Count
Ftl (2) – Cayvie, shraeye
Cayvie (1) – ftl
[flavor]The long, harrowing ordeal of the Courtyard Masquerade came to a halt as shraeye cast the deciding vote. The spirits of the dead held their breath.
“All we need is this one vote to complete the greatest scomeback in history!” cackled the wicked watno.
“You will never forget this shame!” sneered Theorel.
“I never had a chance, troll mod,” grumbled Captain_Frisk.
“They should lynch Cuzz!” said eHalcyon.
“I’m already dead, you jerk!” retorted Cuzz.
“What a waste,” sighed Grujah.
“Why was I killed?” asked Yuma.
“Really, though, why was I killed???” wondered Insomniac.
“4 Vanilla Townies? I meant 3,” confessed Morgrim. “Wait, I mean…”
“I’ve been dead a long time,” said Eevee.
“Please,” whispered Galzria. “Please…”
“Lynch all lurkers, literally,” suggested Robz888.[/flavor]
Ftl, the Scum-aligned One-Shot Lightning Rod, has been lynched.
The game is over. The town wins!
Spectator qt: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/gUG7EJcWc3BWt
Nobles qt: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/iS5gkq2fFHmNh
Harem qt: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/gkSxCegj3YzT5
Mafia qt: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/xQjXBtBAJyENY
Modchat qt: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/p2fgZpVKhpU
Link to spreadsheet of all Roles (day and night actions are on page 2): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlXaywBh9jOcdGU0QXUzTm5yT1dPQkROSHp4Z2tiLVE#gid=0
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Unlocked, obviously.
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pant pant pant pant pant pant pant pant pant!!!
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YES thank you so much cayvie and Shraeye.
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So yeah I'm a bad town player >_< I think I'm 0 for 3 on being on the correct wagon so far. If I do die tonight I'm still suspicious of ftl, Watno, and now theorel, because they all have avoided the claim spotlight so far. yuma has too but he's been acting very townish in other ways so I trust him more. Watno I've just had an off-feeling about the whole game. top-scum is ftl imo.
MASTER OF FORUM MAFIA
I pegged all the remaining scum on Day FIVE. It is now Day TWELVE. What a crazy game. But we won!!
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yay town!
what a fun finish. big apologies to YN. hats off to galzria who has to have been the best D2 player of all time.
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So yeah I'm a bad town player >_< I think I'm 0 for 3 on being on the correct wagon so far. If I do die tonight I'm still suspicious of ftl, Watno, and now theorel, because they all have avoided the claim spotlight so far. yuma has too but he's been acting very townish in other ways so I trust him more. Watno I've just had an off-feeling about the whole game. top-scum is ftl imo.
MASTER OF FORUM MAFIA
I pegged all the remaining scum on Day FIVE. It is now Day TWELVE. What a crazy game. But we won!!
Pegging all the scum was actually very easy to do, on Day 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12.
AT ALL TIMES, ALL MAFIA-ALIGNED SCUM WERE THE LEAST FREQUENT POSTERS.Only Morgrim posted fewer times than any scum on any given day, I believe.
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So Theorel, ftl, Watno, and maaaybe one of Ashersky/Shraeye (but maybe not!) should be near the top of our suspicion list.
I had a couple of shocking moments of lucidity in the Nobles QT as well. Unfortunately all of my reads turned on their head since then.
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right now i have to process a lot of feelings here!
this game ruined my sleep schedule there at the end; check the timestamps on my posts.
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cayvie what is your role pm?
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HURRAY I didn't think it was ftl. I would have chose wrong there.
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i so desperately wanted not to screw this game up
i've been on a tear of really abysmal play lately; Hydra Mafia and Domafia in particular.
i was far more manipulative than i enjoy being. i'm sorry to Robz and shraeye. in a day or so i may apologize to ftl as well.
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cayvie what is your role pm?
NAME: Cayvie
ALIGNMENT: Town
CARD: Wishing Well
ROLE: Redemptive Watcher
DESCRIPTION: You haven't been around as long as some, but you're clearly a perceptive and useful player. Well, let's put you to the test by giving you back an ability that is a variant of one you had, but didn't get much use out of. Try not to get killed off this time.
ACTIVE ABILITIES: You will be able to watch a player during the night, however, you are only able to watch the player for whom you voted during the preceding day. At the start of the next day, you will be told who, if anyone, targeted that player with a night action. Technically, you must "perform" this action, even though you do not have a choice on whom you watch (although you may let me know that you intend to watch no one, if you wish). I will simply assume you are choosing to watch this person that you voted for (assuming that person was not lynched), unless you tell me otherwise.
PASSIVE ABILITIES: None.
WIN CONDITION: You win when all Scum-aligned players are dead.
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I will summarize the last several days of the QT for you.
Cuzz is scum, Cuzz is scum. Why are they letting Cuzz off the hook? Lynch Cuzz already, come on guys.
I can't believe they lynched yuma. What in the world.
Axxle's not a good lynch, but it's understandable.
Lynch Cuzz, lynch Cuzz, lynch Cuzz.
Cuzz is town, wut?
Still can't believe they lynched yuma.
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Great work at convincing shraeye, cayvie! You had me convinced too. I think I would have just opened the day voting for you, without that.
-
Remember when this was my introduction to f.ds mafia over TWO MONTHS ago and I eHalc (who I lost a steak bet with Shraeye over) was town who I was convinced was scum trying to crucify an honestly scum hunting SK who just didn't know how to do it in a non scummy way. I have learned so much since then...
PPE: Oh Hey, Ehalcyon!
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I will summarize the last several days of the QT for you.
Cuzz is scum, Cuzz is scum. Why are they letting Cuzz off the hook? Lynch Cuzz already, come on guys.
I can't believe they lynched yuma. What in the world.
Axxle's not a good lynch, but it's understandable.
Lynch Cuzz, lynch Cuzz, lynch Cuzz.
Cuzz is town, wut?
Still can't believe they lynched yuma.
Last several days? There are 1,300 posts there. We were raging about their lynch order choices since 500.
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TBF I didn't think Cuzz was scum but it was drilled into me by the QT. Also I want to know why ftl killed me.
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TBF I didn't think Cuzz was scum but it was drilled into me by the QT. Also I want to know why ftl killed me.
I think he didn't know you were Hated.
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Great work at convincing shraeye, cayvie! You had me convinced too. I think I would have just opened the day voting for you, without that.
You would've ended the day doing that too. Sneaky double voter.
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TBF I didn't think Cuzz was scum but it was drilled into me by the QT. Also I want to know why ftl killed me.
I think he didn't know you were Hated.
Butt....But...I said it in thread AND in the QT.
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Did ftl just miss the deadline for the lynch before the lightning rod? Was it calculated?
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Great work at convincing shraeye, cayvie! You had me convinced too. I think I would have just opened the day voting for you, without that.
You would've ended the day doing that too. Sneaky double voter.
Haha, yeah...
Double voter isn't a very good town role.
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TBF I didn't think Cuzz was scum but it was drilled into me by the QT. Also I want to know why ftl killed me.
I think he didn't know you were Hated.
Butt....But...I said it in thread AND in the QT.
I think ftl checked out a long time ago.
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Great work at convincing shraeye, cayvie! You had me convinced too. I think I would have just opened the day voting for you, without that.
You would've ended the day doing that too. Sneaky double voter.
Haha, yeah...
Double voter isn't a very good town role.
Im sorry Axxle, I had to talk myself into lynching you and I should know better than to have to talk myself into a lynch
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Oh, the QT also has some theory on how you could have used your power to greater effect, cayvie.
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I'm not entirely sure it would have mattered in the scheme of things, I think we would have lynched Cuzz maybe? Then I probably would have been lynched for pushing his lynch so hard.
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The best summary of the Axxle/Yuma lynches were given by Robz:
"The Axxle lynch was cowardice,
but the Yuma lynch was insanity."
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Hey...Hey Robz....I have more wins than you now ;D
14 Games 8 Wins 6 Losses = 57.142857142857142857142857142857% winning...
Alright gloat over since now Im gonna be punished and have the worst record in f.ds
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Actually double voting town makes sense considering we had an essentially voteless town (cayvie)
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Did ftl just miss the deadline for the lynch before the lightning rod? Was it calculated?
This was actually calculated. He knew he was going to have to have a no-kill night (the night he LRed), so he wanted the town to think there was some way left of not having a kill somehow. So he actually did plan that. I thought it was smart.
Then he killed Insomniac. I died.
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Hey...Hey Robz....I have more wins than you now ;D
14 Games 8 Wins 6 Losses = 57.142857142857142857142857142857% winning...
Alright gloat over since now Im gonna be punished and have the worst record in f.ds
You got a loooong way to go to get below me. My marker FINALLY ticked back up in the right direction.
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#84, Mafia QT:
You guys are the lurkiest bunch of scum in the history of the world, by the way.
Well put Robz, well put.
Lynch. all. lurkers.
Hey, my win rate is 66%! (I'm not counting Morgrim's game >_<)
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There was a time...
I won II.
I won III.
I lost IV.
I won V.
I won VI.
That I was at 80%.
.... Then I lost VII, VIII, IX, XIII, XIV and XV.
Hey, but now I won XI.
So... 5 wins, 7 losses? Sigh...
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#84, Mafia QT:
You guys are the lurkiest bunch of scum in the history of the world, by the way.
Well put Robz, well put.
Lynch. all. lurkers.
Hey, my win rate is 66%! (I'm not counting Morgrim's game >_<)
Yeah, I'm changing it officially.
LAL: Lynch All Lurkers = No. No more.
The new policy is
LALL: Lynch All Lurkers, Literally
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There was a time...
I won II.
I won III.
I lost IV.
I won V.
I won VI.
That I was at 80%.
.... Then I lost VII, VIII, IX, XIII, XIV and XV.
Hey, but now I won XI.
So... 5 wins, 7 losses? Sigh...
((If you're ever curious about Meta - I Mafia in II, SK in XV, and town in every other game listed there))
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There was a time...
I won II.
I won III.
I lost IV.
I won V.
I won VI.
That I was at 80%.
.... Then I lost VII, VIII, IX, XIII, XIV and XV.
Hey, but now I won XI.
So... 5 wins, 7 losses? Sigh...
((If you're ever curious about Meta - I Mafia in II, SK in XV, and town in every other game listed there))
Galz it'll be ok, also you aren't counting Blitz there and I am (I have a 3/4 record in blitz)
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Mafia killed me and they didn't even say why, the fiends.
Also this is like my second town win in... my whole life. Hooray?
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Several times, people said they couldn't imagine a scum Lightning Rod. I understand your hangup, but I maintain that it did make sense here.
The only kill the mafia had to worry about was the Serial Killer's. There was no town Vig. The mafia kill would not be redirected by the LR if the Jack of All Trades did the kill. The JOAT could also do one of his JOAT powers the same night he performed the kill. (Yes, it really sucked for them losing Grujah Day 1.)
So there weren't actually a lot of night actions that would threaten Ftl if redirected to him. He had a non-scummy Description and Card name.
Most importantly, the LR was a way for scum to invade the Nobles qt, which I thought might be critical.
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Here were the JOAT powers, by the way:
Each night, 1 of you or your partners may PM me the name of 1 player you wish to kill. You also possess several 1-shot abilities. You may only use one of these abilities per night, but may use it in addition to performing the factional kill. You are a 1-shot full investigator. Once at night, you may PM me the name of 1 player. I will tell you all information about that player. You are a 1-shot redirector. Once at night, you may PM me the name of 1 player you would like to redirect and 1 player you would like to target. If the player you redirect performs an action on a player, that action will instead be performed on the player you targeted (if the redirected player gets a result, he will know that he was redirected). You are a 1-shot full doctor. Once at night, you may PM me the name of 1 player. That player will be protected from all kills that would otherwise resolve on him that night.
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There was a time...
I won II.
I won III.
I lost IV.
I won V.
I won VI.
That I was at 80%.
.... Then I lost VII, VIII, IX, XIII, XIV and XV.
Hey, but now I won XI.
So... 5 wins, 7 losses? Sigh...
((If you're ever curious about Meta - I Mafia in II, SK in XV, and town in every other game listed there))
Galz it'll be ok, also you aren't counting Blitz there and I am (I have a 3/4 record in blitz)
Ok. I was in Blitz 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 - I won 1, and lost 3, 4, 5 and 6. That makes me 6/11. Great, it went down.
-
There was a time...
I won II.
I won III.
I lost IV.
I won V.
I won VI.
That I was at 80%.
.... Then I lost VII, VIII, IX, XIII, XIV and XV.
Hey, but now I won XI.
So... 5 wins, 7 losses? Sigh...
((If you're ever curious about Meta - I Mafia in II, SK in XV, and town in every other game listed there))
Galz it'll be ok, also you aren't counting Blitz there and I am (I have a 3/4 record in blitz)
Ok. I was in Blitz 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 - I won 1, and lost 3, 4, 5 and 6. That makes me 6/11. Great, it went down.
I have lost Blitz 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6.
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Several times, people said they couldn't imagine a scum Lightning Rod. I understand your hangup, but I maintain that it did make sense here.
The only kill the mafia had to worry about was the Serial Killer's. There was no town Vig. The mafia kill would not be redirected by the LR if the Jack of All Trades did the kill. The JOAT could also do one of his JOAT powers the same night he performed the kill. (Yes, it really sucked for them losing Grujah Day 1.)
So there weren't actually a lot of night actions that would threaten Ftl if redirected to him. He had a non-scummy Description and Card name.
Most importantly, the LR was a way for scum to invade the Nobles qt, which I thought might be critical.
I agree, and pointed this out a few times.
-
There was a time...
I won II.
I won III.
I lost IV.
I won V.
I won VI.
That I was at 80%.
.... Then I lost VII, VIII, IX, XIII, XIV and XV.
Hey, but now I won XI.
So... 5 wins, 7 losses? Sigh...
((If you're ever curious about Meta - I Mafia in II, SK in XV, and town in every other game listed there))
Galz it'll be ok, also you aren't counting Blitz there and I am (I have a 3/4 record in blitz)
Ok. I was in Blitz 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 - I won 1, and lost 3, 4, 5 and 6. That makes me 6/11. Great, it went down.
I have lost Blitz 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6.
So I need to lose one more to catch up? I can manage that.
-
MVP?
-
And there we have it. What a wild ride. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say: it was an incredible time, but an enormous relief to be over.
I'm only a lowly backup mod, but I have to nominate Galz and eHalc as MVPs for their Day 2 and Day 3 play, respectively.
-
surely yuma
MVP?
-
surely yumaMVP?
Probably eHal, imo.
-
let's just make Robz the MVP. whole game felt very Robzy.
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Final vote cast on post #3968.
M-VI hammer on Glooble fell on #3998. And back in our day, we didn't have these special split-threads.
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There are 3 players who played better than everyone else: EHalcyon, Galzria, and yuma. (The original Nobles get an honorable mention for doing a pretty good job).
The rest of the town, well they had their ups and downs. Down downs. The scum played horribly in the early game. O, Watno, and Theorel stepped it up a bit toward the middle, but still got picked up. While ftl outsmarted the town for a long time, his lurking did cost him in the end, and his mistake of killing Insomniac... I mean, scum may very well have won if not for that. So.
So it's eHalcyon, Galzria, or yuma. Yuma built some great cases against a lot of scum, and did a lot of pro-town work. eHalcyon and Galzria were awesome additions to the Nobles qt and really got the ball rolling in figuring this game out.
My hunch is to give the award to eHalcyon for being the first player to correctly identify all 3 VT+s (and their Cards, except Morgrim's weird Shanty Town) and the 4 VTs (and their Cards).
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Modnotes, 89
Speccy thread is more entertaining than the actual game.
hahahaha
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surely yumaMVP?
Probably eHal, imo.
Although he had voted for me. Ehh, I still think he took it the step further that I never had the chance to.
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There are 3 players who played better than everyone else: EHalcyon, Galzria, and yuma. (The original Nobles get an honorable mention for doing a pretty good job).
The rest of the town, well they had their ups and downs. Down downs. The scum played horribly in the early game. O, Watno, and Theorel stepped it up a bit toward the middle, but still got picked up. While ftl outsmarted the town for a long time, his lurking did cost him in the end, and his mistake of killing Insomniac... I mean, scum may very well have won if not for that. So.
So it's eHalcyon, Galzria, or yuma. Yuma built some great cases against a lot of scum, and did a lot of pro-town work. eHalcyon and Galzria were awesome additions to the Nobles qt and really got the ball rolling in figuring this game out.
My hunch is to give the award to eHalcyon for being the first player to correctly identify all 3 VT+s (and their Cards, except Morgrim's weird Shanty Town) and the 4 VTs (and their Cards).
eHal has my vote. He took what I started with in the early game (that he helped me create), and carried the Towns momentum into the middle of the game - setting the stage for the town to (eventually) earn the win.
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BUt it was my idea to recruit Galz into the Nobles! Without which, we might well have lost the game.
This game taught me this about my meta: I will not step in and do heavy lifting as long as there's anyone who will do it for me (particularly confirmed town).
But I've been trying to alter that in subsequent games.
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I did find it deliciously ironic that Robz made such a point in my description to give me no role whatsoever, and yet I had something to do every single night.
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maaaan that was a brutal spec QT to read through
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The idea was to show most (not all, but most) town players a tiny little piece of the puzzle each. That's why there were 3 different Cops, each limited in some way, two sets of masons, a crippled watcher, the Wine... plus a Double Voter and a hider/commuter. Which was a whole lot of town PRs, although none of them super strong.
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Which is why PR hunting wasn't that valuable for scum, they just needed to eliminate scumhunters since PRs wouldn't do it for us.
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Which is why PR hunting wasn't that valuable for scum, they just needed to eliminate scumhunters since PRs wouldn't do it for us.
Which, I guess, is one of the factors why PR hunting wasn't that valuable for scum, they just needed to eliminate scumhunters since PRs wouldn't do it for us.
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I will indeed make eHalcyon the MVP of this game.
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Aw shucks.
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so close to becoming part of the nobility!
sigh
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I died like two months ago, doesn't really feel like I just won a game here. Gg town though!
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As much as I would love to steal it away (Take commands only work in locats, right?), I do agree with eHal winning it. He had three opportunity to do more than I could, and he didn't miss taking advantage of it. Definitely deserved.
Take: MVP Trophy from eHal.
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Yeah eevee was in this game what? XD
Seriously this has been the longest game ever. Didn't help that we drug it out to lylo.
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Yeah eevee was in this game what? XD
Seriously this has been the longest game ever. Didn't help that we drug it out to lylo.
Ah, second longest in actual game length (longest by time spent though).
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Oh, this was so long ago, but I have to give a special apology to Frisk for probably definitely designing a bastard or near-bastard role for him. Not giving him a night kill was a mistake (for him, not for the rest of the game; him not having a night kill did keep it balanced I think, but not from his perspective).
Other than Frisk, I'm fairly satisfied with everything. Even aspects of roles that I didn't think would ever become a factor (Axxle's double vote, Insomniac being hated, and Ftl's LR) ended up mattering a great deal.
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Oh, this was so long ago, but I have to give a special apology to Frisk for probably definitely designing a bastard or near-bastard role for him. Not giving him a night kill was a mistake (for him, not for the rest of the game; him not having a night kill did keep it balanced I think, but not from his perspective).
Other than Frisk, I'm fairly satisfied with everything. Even aspects of roles that I didn't think would ever become a factor (Axxle's double vote, Insomniac being hated, and Ftl's LR) ended up mattering a great deal.
Basically ended up a survivor right?
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Oh, this was so long ago, but I have to give a special apology to Frisk for probably definitely designing a bastard or near-bastard role for him. Not giving him a night kill was a mistake (for him, not for the rest of the game; him not having a night kill did keep it balanced I think, but not from his perspective).
Other than Frisk, I'm fairly satisfied with everything. Even aspects of roles that I didn't think would ever become a factor (Axxle's double vote, Insomniac being hated, and Ftl's LR) ended up mattering a great deal.
Basically ended up a survivor right?
Yeah. Both him and Munch actually had the Win Condition that they only had to be one of the last 2 living players, rather than the outright last living player, so that made things slightly easier. Also, there were no, like, rogue kills to worry about (just the SK and the mafia). Still though, would have been tough for him to win.
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Was ftl able to activate lightning rod on the same night he performed a kill? If he did, would his own kill come flying back at him?
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my role was kind of sweet.. but then I died night 1 and ended up being basically negative utility for town.
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my role was kind of sweet.. but then I died night 1 and ended up being basically negative utility for town.
What was your role?
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overall, i can't fault you for anything, robz.
but this game was just too big for me. i never got a handle on it. i stopped having fun like 5 gamedays ago and this final day was just gutwrenching torture for me. i think the reason scum were allowed to lurk so much is that, well, lurking just kind of seemed like the sane thing to do.
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Was ftl able to activate lightning rod on the same night he performed a kill? If he did, would his own kill come flying back at him?
Yes. If anyone other than Grujah performed the factional kill, it would kill ftl during LR.
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This was posted in the "Town Wins!" post, but here it is again:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlXaywBh9jOcdGU0QXUzTm5yT1dPQkROSHp4Z2tiLVE#gid=0
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This was posted in the "Town Wins!" post, but here it is again:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlXaywBh9jOcdGU0QXUzTm5yT1dPQkROSHp4Z2tiLVE#gid=0
Loving that I got the only "screw you" description. ;D
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MVP?
I would nominate Cuzz. I think that guy made me see the light on ftl. Also, his description finding was really really uncannily good. Always picking up new descriptions. Cleared me and ash very early. Cuzz really really helped. If he can't get MVP, at least give him mad props.
Also, cayvie, sorry for making you squirm at the end. I was 95% sure at the opening of the day that lynching ftl was right. I just wanted to hear you talk for a bit.
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MVP?
I would nominate Cuzz. I think that guy made me see the light on ftl. Also, his description finding was really really uncannily good. Always picking up new descriptions. Cleared me and ash very early. Cuzz really really helped. If he can't get MVP, at least give him mad props.
Also, cayvie, sorry for making you squirm at the end. I was 95% sure at the opening of the day that lynching ftl was right. I just wanted to hear you talk for a bit.
With all due respect, I disagree. Cuzz didn't tell us much we didn't know. He got me lynched. He did prevent one of [you, ashersky] from getting lynched, but if not for your thread-locking business, it's likely the other would have gotten lynched.
He revealed his info as if he had mod-confirmed information that people were town when in fact he received descriptions that he could only speculate to whom they belonged and that did not indicate (with certainty) anyone's alignment. Yet he acted like he did.
He took forever to paraphrase the descriptions he had when it should have taken him five or ten minutes to do so.
Sorry, rant over, Cuzz. I was just so certain that you were scum. I still kind of am.
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Naw, I'm still a fan of Cuzz.
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MVP?
I would nominate Cuzz. I think that guy made me see the light on ftl. Also, his description finding was really really uncannily good. Always picking up new descriptions. Cleared me and ash very early. Cuzz really really helped. If he can't get MVP, at least give him mad props.
Also, cayvie, sorry for making you squirm at the end. I was 95% sure at the opening of the day that lynching ftl was right. I just wanted to hear you talk for a bit.
With all due respect, I disagree. Cuzz didn't tell us much we didn't know. He got me lynched. He did prevent one of [you, ashersky] from getting lynched, but if not for your thread-locking business, it's likely the other would have gotten lynched.
He revealed his info as if he had mod-confirmed information that people were town when in fact he received descriptions that he could only speculate to whom they belonged and that did not indicate (with certainty) anyone's alignment. Yet he acted like he did.
He took forever to paraphrase the descriptions he had when it should have taken him five or ten minutes to do so.
Sorry, rant over, Cuzz. I was just so certain that you were scum. I still kind of am.
This is pretty spot on, although I recognize he was doing things as her thought would be beneficial to the town. It's just that, unfortunately, they weren't. I went rail at him too much here, since I know he's read the spec QT, but yes, he seriously misplayed. Hey, it happens. Learn from it and move on. We all do things poorly sometimes.
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My phone is throwing an 'r' onto the end of 'he' alot recently. Cuzz, I'm NOT calling you a girl. PINL.
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overall, i can't fault you for anything, robz.
but this game was just too big for me. i never got a handle on it. i stopped having fun like 5 gamedays ago and this final day was just gutwrenching torture for me. i think the reason scum were allowed to lurk so much is that, well, lurking just kind of seemed like the sane thing to do.
Hey, that's no problem. I think it was too big. I could tell you were legitimately upset, and it's supposed to be fun.
I kind of diagree that lurking was the sane thing to do. Grujah lurked and was lynched, Captain_Frisk lruked and was lynched, O-Watno-Theorel lurked to a large extent were lynched. Morgrim lurked and was lynched (wrongly). And then instead of killing the last lurker, the town went in every other direction. I don't think ftl's lurking was tactical; he is legitimately over mafia, I think. The timing of that was unfortunate and a tad annoying, but again, this is just for fun.
I don't ask the entire scum team if they wanted to resign at one point, and they each said no individually.
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I should give a big shout out to shraeye for getting it right in the end. I think it's clear from his message to me that he had picked out ftl, even before Cayvie started really going after the guy for his non-posting.
Also, thanks a lot to Voltgloss for helping out! It was great to bounce my thoughts off of him.
Also, thank you to the various replacements who filled in. I thought sparky did a very a solid job in his role. O and Theorel were placed into very difficult spots, so I thank them for doing their best.
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Hard to believe I subbed in during the very first day, and the game lasted twelve days. It was a wild ride, the whole game was a mystery to be solved, and I'm glad that I essentially solved it when I was killed. (And I went backwards with my theories in the speccy thread. xD ) Even though some of the theories about the cards established over the course of the game by me were totally bogus, it was still a fun ride, the whole game was extremely well-crafted, and I'm glad to have been a part of this game (depsite my terrible play at times) :)
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Naw, I'm still a fan of Cuzz.
Thanks, I appreciate this. I could try to explain/defend myself regarding a few of the many criticisms of my play, but the game is over and honestly YoungNick and Galz are right for the most part.
My feelings about this game are basically what cayvie said:
overall, i can't fault you for anything, robz.
but this game was just too big for me. i never got a handle on it. i stopped having fun like 5 gamedays ago and this final day was just gutwrenching torture for me. i think the reason scum were allowed to lurk so much is that, well, lurking just kind of seemed like the sane thing to do.
Of course I'm glad we won though. And many thanks to Robz for designing the game and for modding. I'm sure it wasn't always easy but he handled everything like a pro.
I just won't be playing another 24 person game any time soon.
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Sorry yuma. We had a lot of mislynches towards the end but yours was really the worst. I don't know why I was so sure you were scum but I think it had to do more with the fact that no one else could possibly be scum. Anyway, that's probably my biggest regret of this very up-and-down game.
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There's some funny stuff in the Mafia QT about attempting to kill me, and if it's even possible or if I'll just have perma-doctor status. And the comment about "by 'aim for Galz tomorrow' I mean NK him, not try to get him lynched. That's hopeless." had me laughing quite hard. I wish my obvtowniness had scared them into not trying to NK me a little longer.
....
Boo!
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Also, town win was secured when I was NKed and therefore not around for Lylo, where of course Shraeye would have lynched me for the town loss.
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Also, town win was secured when I was NKed and therefore not around for Lylo, where of course Shraeye would have lynched me for the town loss.
Haha, I did remain suspicious of you up until the end. I would hope that your hypothetical would be untrue, but given my suspicion of you and your amazing ability to get lynched in lylo, maybe it would have happened :)
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Also, town win was secured when I was NKed and therefore not around for Lylo, where of course Shraeye would have lynched me for the town loss.
Haha, I did remain suspicious of you up until the end. I would hope that your hypothetical would be untrue, but given my suspicion of you and your amazing ability to get lynched in lylo, maybe it would have happened :)
Both of us confirmed VTs so early did seem too good to be true.
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Too bad town isn't a team, so I guess only shraeye and cayvie won for surviving.
I think town was insanely strong with all the info rules and guessing right how to interpret stuff, it came down to having to find the one town in a group of 7 or so to win the game.
Thx for modding, Robz.
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Too bad town isn't a team, so I guess only shraeye and cayvie won for surviving.
Huh? Town is a team (just, a team whose members don't know each other at the outset), and all town players won this game, dead or not. Don't need to survive to win. (unless you're SK or Survivor)
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I think watno's comment is because the town lynched him for being part of a team.
I'm glad my first win didn't come from a game that I tried to replace out of after replacing into. Someday, I'm going to win a game though, some day...
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overall, i can't fault you for anything, robz.
but this game was just too big for me. i never got a handle on it. i stopped having fun like 5 gamedays ago and this final day was just gutwrenching torture for me. i think the reason scum were allowed to lurk so much is that, well, lurking just kind of seemed like the sane thing to do.
Hey, that's no problem. I think it was too big. I could tell you were legitimately upset, and it's supposed to be fun.
I kind of diagree that lurking was the sane thing to do. Grujah lurked and was lynched, Captain_Frisk lruked and was lynched, O-Watno-Theorel lurked to a large extent were lynched. Morgrim lurked and was lynched (wrongly). And then instead of killing the last lurker, the town went in every other direction. I don't think ftl's lurking was tactical; he is legitimately over mafia, I think. The timing of that was unfortunate and a tad annoying, but again, this is just for fun.
I don't ask the entire scum team if they wanted to resign at one point, and they each said no individually.
I'd like to point out that my lurking was in no way a strategic decision.
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YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Too bad town isn't a team, so I guess only shraeye and cayvie won for surviving.
I think town was insanely strong with all the info rules and guessing right how to interpret stuff, it came down to having to find the one town in a group of 7 or so to win the game.
Thx for modding, Robz.
again that wasn't the scummiest part of your description, the scummy part was that you had no role... so either VT or Goon. We already knew quite a few VTs that had stepped forward. Remember that I also gave you the wine to begin with because I had a scum read on you from behavior... So there was that to consider as well. Outing you was my favorite part of this game.
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FWIW, Robz made clear in the modnotes QT that he never expected the "team" reference to make Watno's description sound scummy. So in some sense, Watno was the right lynch for the "wrong" reasons.
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FWIW, Robz made clear in the modnotes QT that he never expected the "team" reference to make Watno's description sound scummy. So in some sense, Watno was the right lynch for the "wrong" reasons.
He didn't expect != He didn't do
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and as a candidate for MVP (I am honored, really to be held up with such lofty names as eHal and Galz) I fully support eHal. Best use of VT is how I would describe it to suggest a forum awards category.
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We won. And you lynched me. And I was town. AGAIN.
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We won. And you lynched me. And I was town. AGAIN.
;D It's because we all fear a scum Morgrim.
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We won. And you lynched me. And I was town. AGAIN.
We may never see scum Morgrim. :'(
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We won. And you lynched me. And I was town. AGAIN.
We may never see scum Morgrim. :'(
maybe ill play one after the holidays blow over...dont have much time now. Got on cause i had to check on my current games.
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We won. And you lynched me. And I was town. AGAIN.
We may never see scum Morgrim. :'(
maybe ill play one after the holidays blow over...dont have much time now. Got on cause i had to check on my current games.
If I promise you scum in my game will you play it?*
* - May not be able to actually promise anything.
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We *needed* to verify your information Morgrim, it wasn't because we thought you were scum.