Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[yuma]

Vote Count 2.5
With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, October 15, at 10:00 PM (EDT).

Should we implement a soft deadline similar to yesterday's?

No one has answered this, but I would like to suggest that we implement a soft deadline of Thursday midnight, forum time. As the deadline is on a Sunday I think it would be best to have everything figured out before the weekend starts up (because I seem to be the exception in being more active over the weekend).

[ashersky]

For D3 after I die:

Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma

Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye

Wanted to get that on the record.

@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.

[jotheonah]

Ok, Munch and ash BOTH looks so scummy, but I can't imagine they're both scum, the way they're fighting. I mean, it doesn't read like a fake fight.

And I get a slightly more townish read on ashersky, i.e. his play can more easily be explained as bad town play rather than scum play.

I'm going to switch back to Vote: TheMunch. Have scumreads on both, feel a little better about the Munch lynch.

[jotheonah]

I should note, I could be talked into switching back. I don't like that two big scumreads are fighting each other like this. It tells me that I'm likely wrong about at least one of them. What do other people think? Could it be a bus? Could it be multiple teams? If we're to lynch one of them today (and we don't have to) which one should it be and why?

Robz, we haven't had a vote count in a while.

[yuma]

For D3 after I die:

Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma

care to provide any rationale as to why you feel this way about me... I don't think you have provided a case.

[yuma]

@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.

and man, it is the weekend... most people don't post on the weekend...

[ashersky]

For D3 after I die:

Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma

care to provide any rationale as to why you feel this way about me... I don't think you have provided a case.

You are right.  Went back to the post that gave me that read...and it was Watno, not you.  So drop Yuma, add Watno.

@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.

and man, it is the weekend... most people don't post on the weekend...

It is Monday afternoon here...so I guess I forgot.  Still, not so crazy to want more voices here, is it?

[ashersky]

And before someone asks, #1789.  Watno's defense of Galz, slight attack on Cayvie.  Check my reads on those two and you see my thinking.

[eHalcyon]

OK, I am starting my reading back from page 70 now, so some of my responses below may have already been posted by others.  Apologies for being less active (though I guess it's been good -- others have been active in my place).  If you didn't realize it, this weekend was Thanksgiving in Canada.  I thought I would still have time to read and participate, but I was more occupied than I realized.

shraeye #1727 -- I believe I asked this earlier and I think you answered, but what is the basis for your town read on Munch?  As I recall, it was just his newbie status?  If you think Munch could be "opposing scum or SK, but not Mafia", that is no reason to vouch for him at all.  Scum is scum.

shraeye #1730 --

when it happened, I noted that Nick's comment against lynching Grujah was weird.  Framing it as, "lynch Glooble or even myself instead" is interesting.  Makes sense if he is Goon trying to direct away from the Mafia PR.  Of course, it would be just as terrible for Goon Nick if we did lynch him, since he would flip Mafia and then we wonder why he put himself in the way of the Grujah lynch.  Poor Mafia play, or poor town play?  Hm.

In the second last quote (last "READ THIS") you say that Nick posted support for "lynch all lurkers" despite his play style.  Do you have a quote for that?  I remember Glooble posting something like that, but not Nick.

shraeye #1733 --

I don't understand the criticism of the word "except".

I do not believe that asking what others think of you is a scum tell.

You criticize ashersky for suggesting no lynch.  This strikes me as very inconsistent of you.  You consider the no lynch suggestion as a "soft defense of Grujah".  So why did Munch get a pass when he said that he didn't find Grujah scummy?

Galzria #1734 -- Nothing to add.  These are many of the reasons I have found Munch scummy and more, all very clearly stated.  Well done.

yuma #1735 -- try the Pocket app, perhaps?

Young Nick #1737 -- But why?  What did Grujah post that you thought was content-ful?  igbtennis posted rarely, but he usually offered a fair amount when he did.  Glooble did talk a bit, though I can't remember if it was before or after your post.  And you had a decent excuse for being V/LA.  What did Grujah say that made him seem like less of a lurker to you?

shraeye #1741 -- You expressed a town read on Munch earlier, but now it's gone completely?  I guess it's just natural progression from #1727, so that's alright.  I've already pointed out the inconsistency of your treatment of what looks to be Munch subtly trying to derail Grujah's lynch, as per my response to post #1733.

ashersky #1745 --

Uh, what?  What in the world?  Cripes, this looks enormously scummy.  No, of course the lynchers did not know Grujah was mafia.  But the lynchers thought there was enough of a case to lynch him, and MAN, lynching Mafia definitely gives the lynchers town credit.  No, it does not clear them.  NOBODY is suggesting that.  But this is not a game of definitives, it is not a game of absolute knowledge (cops notwithstanding).

We lynched Mafia.  How would you use this info?  Are you seriously going to argue that Mafia day 1 bussed their JACK OF ALL TRADES?  What in the world. 

No, it doesn't clear the wagon at all.  Mafia could have jumped on late if they thought the lynch was inevitable.  Maybe it really was the biggest gambit thus far on f.ds.  Maybe there are multiple scum teams, and there are scum on the wagon from a different team.  These are all possibilities and town players cannot know with certainty.

But we have to build our reads somehow.  We have to make use of the info we have.  And here you are freaking proposing that we ignore all the info we have and then you vote for someone who actually builds a strong case?  What in the world.

What would you have said if we had lynched town?  That on-wagon was no scummier than off-wagon?  Are you saying that the lynch is worthless for us?  Holy smokes.  You just went from a tiny blip to a huge glowing spot on my scum radar.

Munch #1748 -- Possibilities include that Munch is on the level with this post, or scum jumping at the derailment handed to him on the plate.  Not really sure what to make of it.  But I do find it suspicious that Munch chooses not to respond to any of Galzria's strong case (that even has defender shraeye confessing to doubts).

ashersky #1749 -- What in the world.

Gonna post this as it is now and continue reading.  That was just page 70; didn't realize I would have so much to say.  Moving onto 71 now.

One question here though -- shraeye, did you ever comment on the Grujah wagon even as it was happening?

I suppose the rest of these pages are going to be exciting...

[cayvie]

For D3 after I die:

Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma

Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye

Wanted to get that on the record.

@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.

What have I done to obtain a townread worth a shout pole?

[ashersky]

For D3 after I die:

Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma

Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye

Wanted to get that on the record.

@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.

What have I done to obtain a townread worth a shout pole?

That ! was an iPad typing error.

[cayvie]

that's mildly disappointing

[ashersky]

@eHalc, I stand by the math of my argument, especially for those on wagon.  If you are town, and you were on the Grujah wagon, and you believe there was scum on the wagon with you, you have a better chance of finding them.

So if your odds are better on the wagon, why continue with the strong push off, unless you have a reason to redirect attention?

[eHalcyon]

Page 71.

Munch #1751 and #1752 -- What posts of yours contradict which points in Galzria's case?  I haven't seen anything contradictory in your behaviour, and Galzria's case includes posts you made d2 as well.

ashersky #1757 -- You just sound so, so survivalist, in a bad way.  Is your whole reaction to Galz because he is suggesting looking off-wagon, and you were off-wagon?  You weren't even in his cross-hairs.

yuma #1758 -- I find your rankings of Morgrim and shraeye quite odd.  I disagree with the others though I can understand how you might come to those conclusions, but what kind of read do you have on Morgrim that you mark him as "likely to be scum"?  Morgrim is eternally inscrutable to me.  And why do you think shraeye is unlikely to be scum given the buddying with Munch that Galz pointed out?  Seems a little inconsistent, given your ranking of Munch.  Maybe you're won over by shraeye's cases on other players you find scummy.  Hm.  But seriously -- Morgrim read?  How even?  Can you explain a little more?

Are you looking for a full analysis on jo?  I did a bit of it in #1537, but not a full re-read analysis.

I will defend Voltaire a bit here.  He was busy enough that he dropped out of RMM3 just as it began.  I wouldn't count his absence now as all that scummy.

Yeah, your points on Morgrim are really weak.  Town Morgrim fits that description too.  You should know better.

ashersky #1760 -- My reaction is still "what in the world".  The difference between 11 and 10 is extremely small.  You can have reads on people off-wagon as well, to reduce the field there.  Is your argument that we should always hunt on-wagon?  Then scum wins simply by ditching every wagon before it goes to lynch.  But seriously -- what in the world?  Your logic is just so bad.  So so bad.

ashersky #1763 -- What in the world.  If you were lynched and flipped town, certainly we would look on your wagon.  Likewise, since we lynched Grujah and he flipped scum, certainly we should look off of his wagon.  How do you logic?

sparky #1767 --

This isn't a bastard game.  I doubt there are any roles that are obscenely powerful. 
Bussing isn't really bussing unless your partner is actually lynched.  Voting for your partner is better to do early in the day, when you can have cred for voting for scum (if he flips later) but you also have ample time to change your vote.  But all this is moot because you're talking about Morgrim.

Certainly there may be scum sitting back and just watching.  If you think this is the case, call out those lurkers.  I hope you're not suggesting that we give the scummy players a pass because probably not all of them are actually scum.

Munch #1768 --

1) Subtle defense, etc.  And Galz pointed out the inconsistencies in your voting history.  You seem to be ignoring it.

2) Nope, nobody was saying "everyone on the wagon is town".  Who did you give town credit to, exactly?  Your analysis of the lynch wagon is almost entirely negative.  At best, you have neutral comments for people.  You criticize everyone who voted for Grujah and call the whole wagon "really flaky".  I see no positive statements, no town credit given.

Munch #1772, 1773 -- I don't put any stock in the "we lynched town" typo.  Easy mistake to make for anyone.  But I don't really see much actual content in post #1770.  Basically all you said was, "I was wrong, I do think we should look off-wagon".  Doesn't mean much to me because you haven't put any effort into that front; you've only agreed with others as they made cases.

cayvie #1774 --

Why are you coming in with this question and not offering a comment on the NUMEROUS big, compelling cases?

I'll answer your question anyway.  At this point, I don't think there is a cult in the game.  My reasons:

- Robz is smart.  He knows cults are basically only in bastard games.
- Before game started, this very fact was pointed out by at least one player.
- Eevee was semi-naive alignment cop.  The information he shared about a recruiting faction might have been part of that naivety.  Eevee's role could be a reference to Ozle's game where he thought there were werewolves.  Maybe Eevee's ability let him learn if someone was cult or not.  Or if their alignment had changed?  I could see that being called "semi-naive" by Robz.






Random thoughts -- I meant to mention this earlier, but we should be careful about what we consider "buddying".  I have defended ehunt and he has defended me.  Meh.  So I wouldn't consider the buddying between Munch and shraeye to be that bad, unless one of them flips scum.

Now on to page 72...

[sparky5856]

only thing I really have to contribute is that eHalc is on the ball.

3 AM IS AWESOME

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I find it hilarious that everyone is focused on me and munch, since we're the of the few that are active.  Everyone else, mafia and town, are just sitting back and relaxing.

On Munch, seems scummy, but no real read past what everyone else is saying about him.  On cults, I have no clue.  In a town this size, I'd guess there are more than two NKs available to people; maybe some chose not to shoot, or hit doc/jk targets, etc.?

Something I'm thinking. With HUGE posts such as Galz's case on theMunch, how on earth are scum going to counter that? Just say "eh, what Galz said"? We've sucked all the evidence out of current potential scum. The only way someone can contribute to a case is to CHALLENGE it. It's easy to agree when you're scum, because you wanna go with the flow and not gather much suspicion. Challenge an opinion that everyone else seems fond of, and you've got yourself a big risk because you just garnered attention in a bad way. Challenging opinions is how we get discussion going. Does scum have the guts though to challenge posts that are bigger than Gangnam Style?

WOp Wop Wop WOIp oopppah

@munch -- haven't been called out for anything yet, let alone lurking.  Look at you own numbers, I am not in the bottom, by any means.

Tunneling town is anti-town.  So, I'd suggest scum hunting, instead of focusing just on me.  I am just being honest here--check my previous games if you don't believe me.  My wagon will be fairly worthless when I flip town.

Those words don't mean anything.

sparky #1767 --

This isn't a bastard game.  I doubt there are any roles that are obscenely powerful. 
Bussing isn't really bussing unless your partner is actually lynched.  Voting for your partner is better to do early in the day, when you can have cred for voting for scum (if he flips later) but you also have ample time to change your vote.  But all this is moot because you're talking about Morgrim.

Certainly there may be scum sitting back and just watching.  If you think this is the case, call out those lurkers.  I hope you're not suggesting that we give the scummy players a pass because probably not all of them are actually scum.

That wouldn't be a very good suggestion from me at all; on the flip side of what I mentioned earlier, what are the odds that NONE of Dsell, Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, shraeye, and Young Nick are scum. We very likely have scum nailed here, but it's also very likely that some of the scum aren't gathering much heat at the moment. I guess this tidbit of information is more useful in later days than now, cause right now we can focus on who's gathering the heat. Besides I can't even provide a definite list on who's avoiding the heat because SO many players are doing it. What will be worth investigating is who continues to avoid the heat in future days.

That isn't very helpful I realize that.

Let me focus on VOTE: ashersky for now. My strongest scumread at the moment.

For D3 after I die:

Scummiest: munch, Galz, Yuma

Townish: Joth, cayvie! Shraeye

Wanted to get that on the record.

@yuma on soft-deadline--probably a good idea,if anyone else starts posting.

You're still far away from being lynched. How do you know for CERTAIN you will die?

Last thing, is it even worth it to analyze buddying when we're not certain of players' alignments? Like with theMunch and shraeye, instead of Grujah and Dsell, let's say. Newbie question.

Clearly the only time I can contribute to mafia is at 3 in the morning when my posts don't make any sense at all WOOHOO.

[eHalcyon]

Page 72.

Galzria #1777 -- Agreed.  However, if there was a Cult, I think it is more likely that Eevee was anti-cult and something BAD would happen to them if Eevee were recruited.  It would be a way of keeping the cult in check.

cayvie #1787 --

Huh, interesting.  I don't think the example you point out is so bad though.  I did not get a scum-on-scum feeling on Galz from that case.

I'm still not sure why you asked about cults though.  You think Galz is a cult leader, like in RMMI?

Munch #1790 -- Huh?  Watno's assertion is no crazier than suggesting that scum may have been bussing Grujah, which you seemed to be concerned about earlier.

ashersky #1791 -- Have you not been reading the cases that have been posted?  If you believe people are sitting back, call them out.  People are focused on you and Munch because you both have been quite scummy.  Your scumminess went way up when you basically started advocating giving people off wagon a pass.  Maybe you don't think that's what you're doing, but you are arguing that we should always lynch on wagon because it is smaller.  And that's just ridiculous.

ashersky #1797 -- Ugh, seriously? 

"Tunneling town is anti-town".  Unless you are a mason, nobody knows that you are town.  All we know is that you are acting scummy.  Moreover, nobody is tunneling you.  The biggest cases are not on you.  Why are you so defensive?

Focusing on you IS scum-hunting.  Just like focusing on Munch, or Dsell, or Young Nick -- take your pick of any of the big cases that have been posted recently.  It's not like everyone is sitting around saying, "gosh, ashersky sure is scummy for not being on the lynch wagon."  People are posting actual cases on many players.  Why are you not commenting on those at all?

What exactly are you being honest about here?  What should we check previous games for if we don't believe you?  That you made a statement saying we should always hunt on-wagon, even if the wagon lynched Mafia?  Feel free to link that post of yours.

If you flipped town, your wagon would not be worthless.  We would have a wagon that could be analyzed.  We would have your thoughts, illogical though some of them may be.  The only reason it might be worth less (not worthless, just worth less) is because you have been acting so, so anti-town that it would be hard to fault anyone for voting for you.  Or on the flip side, it would be easy for scum to not vote for you, because you are scummy enough that the lynch will happen without their help.  Ugh.



Not as much to comment on this page, so on to page 73.


ashersky #1801 -- Uhh, why do you have a town read on jo now?  Earlier, you VOTED for him because he said that it was better to scumhunt off wagon.  Now, you are voting for Galz for the same thing.  Similarly, shraeye admitted that the early votes on jo for that statement were ridiculous and that it was better to look off wagon.  So why do you have a town read on jo and shraeye?  Seems extremely inconsistent to me.


jo #1802 -- I disagree.  ashersky burst onto the scene when Munch was getting a lot of heat.  Distraction much?  They haven't really had much of a fight.  They continue to snip at each other, but who does ash vote for?  Galzria.  Not Munch.

ashersky #1812 --

Man, seriously, what in the world?  It is most likely that scum did not bus their PR.  How do you not understand that?  Suppose that a scum team has 4 people on it.  Suppose 1 of Grujah's buddies bussed him.  There were 12 people on Grujah's wagon.  There were 13 not on the wagon.  If we subtract out the dead players, there are 10 on wagon and 11 off wagon.  The odds of finding 2/11 are nearly twice as good as finding 1/10.  If I subtract myself, 2/11 is still better than 1/9.

Who on the wagon do I consider townie?  Sure, I can take them out of the running.  I have a town read on ehunt and Galz now.  There are also some neutral reads, but that's not enough to remove them.  So my odds are now 1/7.  Guess what?  2/11 is still better.

But hey, why not reduce the off-wagon as well?  I have a town on cayvie, after all. So now my odds are 20% off-wagon, 14% on-wagon, and that's being very generous to on-wagon and ignoring the STRONG scum reads on players off-wagon.

OK, now we can factor in the possibility of other scum teams.  But do you really think there are more on the wagon than off?  Eh.  Possible.  Also possible that they left it alone in case it was a townie lynch, since day 1 lynchees are almost invariably townies.  Wouldn't it be nicer to be able to point fingers at all those on the wagon, when your scum team is off the wagon?  So this is a non-factor to me in this analysis.

Do I believe that there was scum on the wagon?  I believe it is a possibility.  But the numbers favour looking off the wagon, and that isn't even considering scum reads stemming from numerous other sources.  These cases that people are making are not just "you are off the wagon, therefore you are scum."

To cap this math lesson off, we could put the same question to you.  Do you believe Grujah's entire team bussed their PR?  If you are town, and you were NOT on the Grujah wagon, and you believe there was scum NOT on the wagon with you, you have a better chance of finding them OFF the wagon.  So if your odds are better OFF the wagon, why continue with the strong push on, unless you have a reason to redirect attention?

sparky #1814 --

Thanks.

Is the first response to ashersky saying that ash is town for making a poor argument, or saying that ash is just really gutsy scum?

Any reason why you just voted for ashersky over Munch?

[cayvie]

cayvie #1787 --

Huh, interesting.  I don't think the example you point out is so bad though.  I did not get a scum-on-scum feeling on Galz from that case.

I'm still not sure why you asked about cults though.  You think Galz is a cult leader, like in RMMI?

It was a thought, yes.

I asked about cults because, if they're around, we need to deal with them immediately in order to have a chance. Honestly, though, just thinking about how to do that makes me realize that we don't really have a chance at all if there's a cult about. So I guess the thing to do is play as if there isn't a cult and hope we're right?

[cayvie]

Also, my gut suspicion of Galzria was later tempered when I remembered the whole business with the wine.

OHHHH I also JUST remembered that Eevee said he had something special that happened when he was on a scumlynch. I bet he was 100% sure of his target's alignment then. (Naive when he wasn't on a scumlynch, accurate when he was).

I'm going to park a vote: ehunt because I don't think he's getting lynched anytime soon. I think I'll just use my vote to indicate my strongest townread unless I am needed for a deadline hammer.

[eHalcyon]

cayvie #1787 --

Huh, interesting.  I don't think the example you point out is so bad though.  I did not get a scum-on-scum feeling on Galz from that case.

I'm still not sure why you asked about cults though.  You think Galz is a cult leader, like in RMMI?

It was a thought, yes.

I asked about cults because, if they're around, we need to deal with them immediately in order to have a chance. Honestly, though, just thinking about how to do that makes me realize that we don't really have a chance at all if there's a cult about. So I guess the thing to do is play as if there isn't a cult and hope we're right?

I said basically the same thing d1.

Are you going to respond to any of the big cases that have been posted?

[eHalcyon]

Also, my gut suspicion of Galzria was later tempered when I remembered the whole business with the wine.

OHHHH I also JUST remembered that Eevee said he had something special that happened when he was on a scumlynch. I bet he was 100% sure of his target's alignment then. (Naive when he wasn't on a scumlynch, accurate when he was).

I'm going to park a vote: ehunt because I don't think he's getting lynched anytime soon. I think I'll just use my vote to indicate my strongest townread unless I am needed for a deadline hammer.

I am pretty sure I mentioned that about Eevee early today.  But I like your theory about the semi-naive modifier.

Parking a vote on your TOWN read is just asking for terrible misinterpretations down the line.  Why is your ehunt your strongest town read?

[eHalcyon]

My current reads are....

Townish:

cayvie -- but, she is slowly falling into a null read since it feels like she isn't contributing very much at all.  Waiting for her to comment on the big cases that we have.  Also off the wagon, but with an odd excuse that, if true, could very well be a scum thing anyway.  Hm.

Galzria -- very thoughtful cases on multiple players.

ehunt -- he's just seemed townie to me the whole game.

Null:

ftl -- was on Gruj wagon, but somewhat late.  Feels lurky.

Voltaire -- he's just been away for so long I don't remember his play much at all.

Axxle -- late on Gruj wagon, but he was the hammer VIA double vote.

shraeye -- Seems to defend Munch way too much.  A few opinions that seem inconsistent (e.g. Munch not-scummy vs. ashersky no-lynch defenses of/redirections from Grujah).  Nonetheless, he made several cases that I thought were quite good.

Cuzz -- I don't really remember much of anything he's done...

yuma -- on the upper end (close to town read) but I'm actually having trouble remembering his comments and positions though I know he has not been inactive.

Morgrim -- he will always be a null read to me.

Watno -- Like yuma, though more neutral than "close to town read".

Captain_Frisk -- Like watno.

Slightly scummy:

sparky -- Volt was a bit weird on day 1 and sparky's posts have just felt a little bit off to me.  But this is a slight feeling only.

Insomniac -- mostly instinct here... some weird interactions and such.

jotheonah -- Morgrim-hunting when Grujah wagon was building.  Did switch to Grujah in the end, but very late.

theorel -- not like him to post so little... I know he replaced into a big game, but still.

Scummy:

Dsell -- well covered, I think.

Young Nick -- off the Gruj wagon, and a comment at the time felt very much like trying to redirect attention away from Gruj.

Munch -- very well covered.

ashersky -- desire to focus attention ON the successful wagon, seems super defensive when people weren't focused on him at all.

[cayvie]

My current reads are....

Townish:

cayvie -- but, she is slowly falling into a null read since it feels like she isn't contributing very much at all.  Waiting for her to comment on the big cases that we have.  Also off the wagon, but with an odd excuse that, if true, could very well be a scum thing anyway.  Hm.

I'm thinking, dude, I'm thinking.

As I said, I think Galz's case against TheMunch is strong. I also think he argued it oddly, but I think I've decided that's neither here nor there.

I would support a TheMunch lynch over an ashersky lynch, though they are both probably in my top 5 for scum.

I feel odd about ftl (just seems like he's not really here), but his presence on the Grujah wagon helps him out there.

Looking back at the people off the wagon, I want to reread Insomniac.

[cayvie]

I reread Insomniac.

I think he's town. He hasn't been here in four days.

[cayvie]

There's people like Cuzz, who has posted 3 times day 2, with little content, but who still gives me a frustrating town read.

There's people like Frisk, who doesn't even seem to be trying, and makes mildly snarky comments at those who are.

There's people like me. I keep looking at this thread and trying to make something come of it, but it just seems like a big impenetrable block.

I think what I was picking up from Galz was frustration.

[TheMunch]

Welcome back eHal.  I have a lot to say to you so I'm just organizing my responses by the post you called me out on.

@1751, 1752, and 1748:  Given that Galz had already said that most recent posts of mine at the time might have swayed him, I would rather have seen a defence if any come from him instead of me.  But I decide to give it when he makes no indication that thats going to happen.

1768 and 1772/1773: Theres not much content in the post cause its just me setting the record straight.  Yes I was wrong, and I'm a big enough man to admit it when its the case.  The point of this post was to say it is believable that I got derailed in the way that I did.  I had mentioned I was a proponent of "not counting out that there are no scum on the wagon" AND "look at the people who where were actively pushing against the grujah wagon".  I just convinced myself that there was an huge tribe against me and I got completely derailed in the name of proving myself right.

1790: Hey, eHal, are you actually agreeing with watno that I was buddying with Ashersky?  I really dont think anyone could make this claim.  That is what I was calling crazy.

Back to 1772/1773: You end this by saying "Doesn't mean much to me because you haven't put any effort into that front".  This is just wrong.  The only case that I've sheeped is Galz' Dsell case, but I dont think I'm the only one sheeping any of Galz' cases.  They are strong and easily sheeped, yet you give no one else gets flack from sheeping his cases.  Be consistent.  Its either ok for all of us to sheep Galz or no one.  But thats the only case I've sheeped.  I was the first one to make a case on Young Nick (This got completely covered up because on the next page Shraeye makes a stronger Galz-Style analysis).  I have also been now looking hard on ashersky cause a lot of his recent behavior has been very scummy to me.  My main three suspicions and cases I have been pushing are on Dsell/Ashersky/YoungNick (at least when I'm not constantly defending myself) and last I checked those are off wagon cases.  But you said I haven't been looking off wagon so I must be making it up (protip: I'm not making it up)