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[Insomniac]

That was an idiotic thing to say. FoS Insomniac.

Personal attacks?

I just don't see why off wagon is 100% a better place to look for scum, I think scum would have had Grujah on their list because he was a popular choice and it looks more innocent, had I been scum I would have straight up voted him on day 1, after ZM2 you get soo much town credit for bussing your partner day 1 it's unreal. So I think it's a bit of a farce to suggest they wouldn't have bussed, because I think at least one of them would have, and I suspect there are multiple teams which means I suspect there to be a fairly large number of scum on the wagon.

[jotheonah]

Ok, all of that is reasonable, but you just made the following argument:

1) I am off the wagon.
2) I am not scum.
3) Therefore, because at least one non-scum is off the wagon, off the wagon is a bad place to look for scum.

It's just a ridiculous argument. I expect better from you. And there's something scummy about how personally you're taking the off-wagon hunt.

[Insomniac]

I'm not taking it personally I just find it far less compelling and since no one has responded to it I figured I should.

[Dsell]

I was off the wagon, and I agree that off the wagon is the best place to look for scum. I appreciate eHalc's work though I know he's able to put in that kind of work as scum too.

I think his case on TheMunch actually seems pretty good. While I wasn't getting much of a read from him yesterday, he's looking rather scummy to me today, especially since he was off-wagon. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I kinda expect one of TheMunch and eHalc to be scum, and at this point I'm leaning towards Munch.

It would still be nice to see them do that exercise where they each make 5 posts not about the other.

[Galzria]

@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.

... Must... Not... Ragevote...

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm with you Galz.  I'm off the wagon, and I absolutely think we should be looking there.

[Galzria]

I have some responses in my head to shraeye's post and Munch's response, but I'm holding back because I want to see others put in their two cents.

what, that shraeye is munch's scumbuddy, and he's like "calm down dude, you're gonna get lynched"?

While that's possible, I only meant that I had rebuttals to his criticisms of my case.  And I think it is a very strong case.  But I want to see what other people think.  A few people expressed a town read on Munch on day 1 but I have been getting none of that, and my scum read on him has just gotten bigger and bigger.  Am I really the only one that sees it?

I also can't comprehend why nobody else has tried to examine the players not on the wagon.  I made a nice big post about it and nobody has commented on all those players.  We have all this info and nobody wants to use it.  Come on people.

Actually, I'm one who had a very pro-town read on him D1, and you're absolutely right that it has quite quickly dissolved here D2. I've been WAY to busy to put in the time needed in any of my games recently, only getting off a couple of sentences here and there. But your case has NOT gone unread, or unnoticed, nor has the responses that have been made. I'm doing my best right now just to stay caught up to date - but going back and doing any research is beyond what I have time for right now. You're not alone in your thinking however, so don't be terribly discouraged.

[sparky5856]

@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.

Well DUH. If there weren't than we would be looking at 13 scum!

lol

what I have trouble seeing is why mafia would bus their jack-of-all-trades. It gives town cred, but... it's just foolish. Looking off-wagon for mafia at least is a safe bet imo.

[Insomniac]

@eHal: Shrug I'm off the wagon and I know I'm not scum so your just pointing people to look at a subsection of people as opposed to everyone, and I know that there is at least 1 non scum in the subset.

Well DUH. If there weren't than we would be looking at 13 scum!

lol

what I have trouble seeing is why mafia would bus their jack-of-all-trades. It gives town cred, but... it's just foolish. Looking off-wagon for mafia at least is a safe bet imo.

Have you READ ZM2, If I hadn't process of eliminated Robz, I NEVER would have voted for him, he was LITERALLY the lowest suspect on my list.

[Robz888]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.

[yuma]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.

Perhaps you could recruit a player who has already been killed to come back? Eevee2? Flareon?

[Insomniac]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.

Perhaps you could recruit a player who has already been killed to come back? Eevee2? Flareon?

Espeon is probably a better scumhunter

[Robz888]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

Ibgtennis has withdrawn from the game. I am currently exploring options. He will be replaced if possible (and obviously such a replacement would not be required to read Day 1), but I find this unlikely, since virtually everyone is playing the game already, and replacing Voltgloss was hard enough. I will inform everyone as soon as possible if other compensatory options are going to be taken.

Perhaps you could recruit a player who has already been killed to come back? Eevee2? Flareon?

This option is being explored.

[Young Nick]

Maybe I pushed ibgtennis' lurking too hard. Huh.

I don't see why everyone is so mad about Insomniac. It's a kind of silly statement, but it's not like a whole argument was based on it, just a little snippet.

I still am looking at Munch because of the hedging I have seen there.

[jotheonah]

I think you have a point, Young Nick. And I don't think anyone is about to go vote Insom - I have a town read on him if I'm honest. But bad logic does bug me.

[ehunt]

I think you have a point, Young Nick. And I don't think anyone is about to go vote Insom - I have a town read on him if I'm honest. But bad logic does bug me.

Why would you not be honest?

Put me in the camp of folks who are suspicious of Insom's position. Let's recall late yester-game-day. Insomniac "second-votes" for ehunt with the argument that it will be a good lynch to get information. I ask him to give a concrete example of what "information" means. He refuses to do so. Now after all that, we have a wagon on Grujah which Insomniac's not on, and Insomniac conveniently decides it's not that relevant of a source of information. You can't have it both ways.

All that being said, I'm not saying that nobody bussed Grujah (although I'm inclined to agree with Sparky that generally scum will be reluctant to bus a scum PR). More importantly, I also suspect there are multiple scum-factions and the other scum-team would happily have piled on.

[ftl]

reread munch, didn't see anything that gave me a particular town vibe, vote: themunch

[sparky5856]

morgrim oh morgrim where are you.

[theorel]

Hi everybody,
I am ibgtennis' new persona.  I've been glancing at the thread from time to time, so I have a vague idea of what's going on.  I don't think I'll be rereading all 60 pages of day1, but I have read day2 so far.

Anyways, I know others have stated similarly, but so far in what I've read, I've disliked shraeye and themunch's posts the most.  (Note: this includes the occasional skimming I did day1)

Insomniac brings up ZM2 as reason not to clear the wagon, even the early voters.  This is reasonable, but it doesn't mean we should just ignore it.  Scum bus sometimes, even strongly, but you shouldn't be suspicious of pro-town behavior unless it's forced.  What I mean is that the act of lynching Grujah should be considered pro-town.  But just as one anti-town act does not imply scum, one pro-town act does not imply town.  Be wary, not paranoid.

[cayvie]

Hi everybody,
I am ibgtennis' new persona.  I've been glancing at the thread from time to time, so I have a vague idea of what's going on.  I don't think I'll be rereading all 60 pages of day1, but I have read day2 so far.

Anyways, I know others have stated similarly, but so far in what I've read, I've disliked shraeye and themunch's posts the most.  (Note: this includes the occasional skimming I did day1)

Insomniac brings up ZM2 as reason not to clear the wagon, even the early voters.  This is reasonable, but it doesn't mean we should just ignore it.  Scum bus sometimes, even strongly, but you shouldn't be suspicious of pro-town behavior unless it's forced.  What I mean is that the act of lynching Grujah should be considered pro-town.  But just as one anti-town act does not imply scum, one pro-town act does not imply town.  Be wary, not paranoid.

whoa, you weren't in this game?

[theorel]

Yeah, I was avoiding it because I didn't really want to be in a game with >13 people.  But, then Robz PMs me, and I had been glancing at the thread a few times, and day2 seemed to be going at a bit more reasonable pace, so I decided to go ahead and be a replacement.

[Robz888]

Theorel has replaced ibgtennis.

[Captain_Frisk]

It would have been some epit trolling if he wasn't!

[theorel]

I almost posted last night after sending the message to Robz that I would.  Then I realized that maybe I should wait to see my role and make sure some other random person didn't already say he'd replace in.

[shraeye]

I really don't understand the Munch wagon, what we need to do is look at people in relation to Grujah yesterday, look at reasons why people were off the wagon (i agree that more suspicions--but not all the suspicion--should go here), and reasons why people were on the wagon.  I'll be doing that in my next post, after I say one more time that y'all are wrong about Munch.  I recall what eevee said about day 1 much earlier

"Lets not go after the first guy who gets up to 6 votes because of some pseudo-slip like we usually do, we all know how that would work out.
Also, ftl's point was an excellent one. This forum tends to want lynch active players for slips that weren't really slips."

I know that day 2 will be different, and with more information, many of the pseudo-slips are more likely to be actual slips.  But it feels like lots of people are treating this with day 1 attitude and haven't made use of the past information we have when determining if Munch feels scummy or actually is being scummy (eHalcyon has looked at the past stuff, i know, kudos to that action--but he still needs to lay off of his Munch tunnelling).  I love that anyone is reading into my defending Munch as a scumpairing.  Yeah, that's a real bang-up job of scum that we're doing.  "Hey, I know, I'll be all caustic and make people upset at me, while you post vague and easily misconstrued posts so that everyone gets a bad feeling about you.  Then instead of doing something rational and cutting ties with you and trying to gain cred, I'll just shout at the top of my lungs that you're town hoping that people believe me"

This little wagon on Munch just feels like day 1 blundering instead of the day 2 calculated lynches that we should be able to pull off.  I really feel like people aren't paying enough attention to eHalcyon's post about off-wagon people.  To use his words:
"We have all this info and nobody wants to use it.  Come on people."

So next post will have info and me making use of it.