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[TheMunch]

Does anyone have a current votecount?

[ftl]

I believe it is 9 for grujah, 5 for morgrim, less for everyone else.

[Robz888]

Does anyone have a current votecount?

Yes.

Vote Count 1.24

shraeye (1) -- ftl
Grujah (9) -- Glooble, ehunt, yuma, watno, Galzria, eHalcyon, Cuzz, Eevee, Morgrim7
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (1) -- Young Nick
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (1) -- TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
Galzria (1) -- Dsell
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (4) -- shraeye, Axxle, jotheonah
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
O (1) -- Captain_Frisk

Not Voting (2) -- O, sparky5856

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)

[jotheonah]

Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.

The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.

[sparky5856]

We're actually getting a consensus? O.o I should read faster then. It'll probably be helpful to me to make mental notes along the way. Axxle requests that I watch eHalc closely.

I find any votes based solely on shar's "I got caught" straight-out bad. It was obvious sarcasm, when you read the whole thing (sentence before) as a whole. Bolding just the part that makes him look scummy without whole content is scummy.


That being said, vote: Glooble. He is acting just like he acts always as scum! He comes out of lurk with a vote on a established wagon. Classic Globscum.

I called it out because it jumped out to me, so I missed the context that framed it as snark.  I recanted on a subsequent re-read.

I echo jo's thoughts on Galz.

Lot of I's in that post. Thinking about yourself huh? About not trying to make yourself get caught?

There are two primary components to mafia. One is psychological, and the other is mathematical/strategic. The presence of special roles highly accentuates the second aspect of the game. I will abbreviate the mathematical component as "theory."

F.DS is really bad at theory, and towns lose over and over because of it. I have no problem with being bossy on theory issues. For example, it's mathematically completely straightforward that the parity of the total population should be odd. Town does better with n town and m mafia than with n+1 town and m mafia when n + m is odd. You can easily check this with a computer if you don't believe me. Despite this basic fact, town lost MXI exclusively because a vigilante caused an even parity at LyLo, and lost MVIII at least partially for this reason (though town was in bad shape by that point in MVIII). This mistake is akin to something like opening mint/pearl diver. I have no problem being blunt about theory issues.

Now, if I've been bossy in a manner that people find rude, I sincerely apologize (and please call me out on it). I can't stand playing with people who call everyone an "idiot" over minor things. I certainly also make theory mistakes. I'm also not good at all at the psychological component of the game. But when I'm right about something theoretical, I'm going to be bold about it.

If the "bossiness" refers to my suggestion that others post infrequently but with more substance, see my answer below.

Overly town, typing eight posts about your thoughts seems a little excessive imo. I remember Volt in MIX was going really out of his way to analyze everyone closely in Day 2, to organize information on everyone, and he was the SK and won.

This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.

Now, there's one answer to this argument which I think bears a specific rebuttal. Cayvie says that people who talk spontaneously give us better reads. I don't know. I know that I got absolutely brutalized in MIX for reflexive phone-posting, causing town to lynch a doctor. Now, some of my wagon was scum, and obviously scum, and my death dragged them out, but I don't think it was worth it. Something similar happened in MVI. I thought that if I just posted all my thoughts without editing at all, it would be clear that I wasn't keeping any information from the town. Instead, my every typo became a "scumslip" and I said something foolish about a hypothetical Frisk proposed about which order theorel and I should be lynched in which caused an L - 1 wagon on me. If that wagon hadn't been boosted along by a bogus investirole-claim by ozle which was discovered to be fake due to it contradicting an earlier post of his, it would have been toodles for ehunt (and theorel would have gotten bogus town-cred out of it).

okay, so that explains it better. He's trying something new after his disaster run in MIX. But I don't necessarily agree with this. I tend to make less "noise" when I'm scum actually, because I'm just too cautious that a little snark will get me caught. Maybe it's something to analyze about someone. Regardless, experience backs him up here.

I believe the second ehunt vote is this:

Vote: ehunt

I have to say I was initially on board with ehunts idea; with such a large number of players I was smitten with the idea of less clutter more content.  But as people actually started to refute this as being a bad idea it made me reevaluate my initial thoughts.  Maybe its good in theory, bad in practice?  Id rather encourage people to give themselves plenty of opportunities (through posting often) to produce inconsistent ideas which can be evaluated by the group.  There might be more "junk" to sift through but all in all talking is good.

I don't get it. We disagree about an idea (how much signal-to-noise ratio should there be), therefore you vote for me? I am giving you a pass because you are new, but "we disagree on a theoretical issue" is not in and of itself a reason to vote. "We disagree on a theoretical issue and I think you know that I am right about the theoretical issue but you are intentionally trying to mislead the town into going the wrong way on the theoretical issue" - that would be a reason to vote for me. Is that why you voted for me? If so, you need to say it.

Agreed.

ehunt, your "one big post a day" approach - if followed by everyone - would make the game easier to play.  There'd be less to read, less to follow, less to keep track of.  But here's the problem:  it also risks making it easier for scum to hide (and, therefore, win). 

Getting people to chatter and then analyzing that chatter is one of Town's biggest weapons.  Limiting chatter, therefore, reads to me as anti-town. 

Hypothetically imagining a situation where eHunt's proposal was truly heard, saying that it's helpful to scum. Town read on myself.

Also, reading on, I think everyone was making too big a deal out of it. It was just a proposal. It was bad, we get it. Everyone didn't need to reiterate it, feels scummy to reiterate.

Whoops, copy+paste error.

This is my post 2.

There are two primary components to mafia. One is psychological, and the other is mathematical/strategic. The presence of special roles highly accentuates the second aspect of the game. I will abbreviate the mathematical component as "theory."

F.DS is really bad at theory, and towns lose over and over because of it. I have no problem with being bossy on theory issues. For example, it's mathematically completely straightforward that the parity of the total population should be odd. Town does better with n town and m mafia than with n+1 town and m mafia when n + m is odd. You can easily check this with a computer if you don't believe me. Despite this basic fact, town lost MXI exclusively because a vigilante caused an even parity at LyLo, and lost MVIII at least partially for this reason (though town was in bad shape by that point in MVIII). This mistake is akin to something like opening mint/pearl diver. I have no problem being blunt about theory issues.

What?  This is MXI.  Do you mean MIX?  I thought town lost because SK Voltgloss had some weird super-voting power.

This is my post 3, about my "one-post-a-day" technique. While I appreciate yuma coming to my side, actually everyone else's reading of what I said was what I meant; what I meant was that it really would be best if people posted less often but more substantively. The pace of one good post a day works for me; do what works best for you, I guess what it means is just don't fill the forum with noise, which drowns out sound and makes the discussion harder to follow. For instance, jotheonah says in between my post 0 and my post 1a of today that "this should be interesting." How does that help the town? It doesn't give us any more of a read on jotheonah. It just gives us noise.

Your original post really wasn't phrased that way.  It didn't even seem to suggest one big post + other little posts.

If everyone makes fewer posts in an effort to make posts more substantive... what will we all post about?  We need something to discuss, and the conversational posts are what get us those topics.  You might criticize a little post as "noise", but without that noise, you have nothing to criticize!

eHalc here does do some reiterating. Also with his first point, already mentioned in an earlier post.

skimming through now, as I believe eHunt is town and everyone else was just wasting time...

Well, O, your posts have been extremely unsatisfying but at least you showed up. So now I will vote: igbtennis to try to get the last lurker.

What? Wasn't he lurking himself?

farted?

Yes.

wow, wow, wow!

what just happened... i felt that cayvie posted a post that to me was confusing and that I didn't understand. I asked for clarification and now I am rolefishing? What does any of this have to do with role fishing?

Town reaction.

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

OK, lots to say:
First, Unvote. Shraeye was a bad wagon. Sorry about that, didn't realize that was sarcasm. Meh. Me and my thick head

Secondly, Vote: O. He shows up, posts like twice, one of his posts being totally insignificant, and the other being just a vote. Thats...ugh. Why? O, you're better than that.

eHunt, I'm with you for the two-post-a-day thing, I really couldn't do more.

And lastly to yuma. L-5. Ugh this game is huge....

But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.

Oh. Well. We certainly can't lynch you now then can we. Oh, please.

@yuma
Cayvie says "just a heads up, my role doesn't want to be on townie lynch wagons, so I'll refrain for voting unless I'm really sure". You reply by voting for her and asking for an explanation. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that people want to vote you for this. If you are town, you made a pretty serious mistake (which sadly often are the basis of f.Ds day 1 lynch wagons), and should at the very least be apologizing, not acting all surprised by our reaction.

I couldn't agree more. I'm fine with Cayvie's role not liking mislynch wagons. What could she possibly say to you? She can't quote her role. I think I'm actually gonna Vote: yuma. I'm OK with an O lynch too.

Very next post:

Yuma, are scum voting for you right now?

They have to. yuma explains himself SEVERAL times, almost always followed by another vote. It's like ">_<"

ehunt: how many times do I have to say this:

People have different playstyles, and that's OK.

Agreed.

Quoted for me to use in the future when I need it 

On page 27. Tired now, will continue later. You guys did not make this easy for me >_<

I did see that Morgrim self-voted though. Not liking that at all. Also Grujah has been super-lurky thus far in my reading. With a town this big, there HAVE to be scum lurkers.

For now VOTE: Morgrim, just not to make myself completely useless/voteless. Anyone object? I'm not caught up with recent discussions yet so forgive me if I'm rushing. I just wanna contribute something lol

[Dsell]

Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.

The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.

Man, don't take the lazy way out.

The problem is, the lynch that I think is best is one of the least viable.

[shraeye]

Can I ask a question of the group?

Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?

Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right?  Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information.  On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.

I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets.  It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.

If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.

Are you saying "we're going to get a lot more information from nightkills, so let's not lynch" I know you're not actively suggesting it, but that sounds like a terrible argument to even consider.  It just sounds like you think lynching someone will somehow stop NK information.  I'd prefer both, please.

[ashersky]

Can I ask a question of the group?

Is it possible that, in a game this size, with the unknown plethora of roles, that a no lynch may in fact be helpful?

Here's my thinking: we've all complained to some degree about the size of this thing, right?  Lynching only reduces the size by one, and the lynch will offer limited information.  On the flip side, it's possible the night will result in way more information to discuss, and could cull the herd by more than one.

I don't mean to sound like I don't want to lynch someone, or even that there aren't reasonable targets.  It's more that I'm wondering and would like to hear from others on the idea of taking this game into the night phase sooner rather than later, via a majority no lynch vote, since we can't seem to come to agreement on a lynch.

If the lynch for the sake of info argument can be made, I think a no lynch for the sake of night info can be made as well.

Are you saying "we're going to get a lot more information from nightkills, so let's not lynch" I know you're not actively suggesting it, but that sounds like a terrible argument to even consider.  It just sounds like you think lynching someone will somehow stop NK information.  I'd prefer both, please.

For the record, I think we should get a lynch today.  I was just tossing out an alternate idea, basically given the size of this town, the length of this day, etc.  I don't think a lynch affects what happens at night, but do think analyzing night stuff will probably add a lot more content than analyzing a policy/plurality lynch.

[TheMunch]

Ok, that Grujah lynch is really picking up speed. L-4.

The part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch.

I agree with this.  Although my read on Grujah isnt town, its nothing.

[eHalcyon]

yuma, how can you go on Grujah like that when there are so many people who are not adding too much to the game. Unless you think this is just unusual for Grujah. If you're supporting a lynch-all-lurkers meta, please, go for someone else like me, Glooble, or ibgtennis.

Hopefully significant analysis coming tonight. I know, I know.

Why go for one of the others over Grujah?  Serious question.




Re: ashersky's #1441: I disagree.  There is plenty of info to be gained from a lynch at this point.

Re: TheMunch's #1442: I believe a Grujah lynch can be informative.  People have stated reasons for finding Grujah scummy.  I have stated reasons, so why would you find it odd?  You're contradicting yourself.

Re: Morgrim's #1445: Why M3?  Did we ever no-lynch in that game?  If we did, it was in a MYLO situation and no-lynch was the right move.  Town won that game, dude.

Re: jo's #1453: "that wagon sure is picking up speed" can be said for any wagon on anyone.  If we make it whenever any wagon gets traction, we will never lynch.

Re: sparky's #1454: What?  Personal pronouns are scummy?  Being helpful is scummy?  People can be helpful whatever alignment they are -- consider me in MIII, where I compiled giant vote counts and such.  Being quiet is scummy?  Reiterating is scummy?  I do not understand you.

[eHalcyon]

Having looked through I have 2 things to say about Grujah.  First, he doesn't really come off to me as scummy in the way hes been talking.  That being said, there hasn't been much information about grujah from earlier, aka, this is exactly what ehalc feared when we were discussing lynching for information; everyone is jumping on grujah to get a lynch but there will be nothing gained from it, as some seem to have little reason (see: he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on).  My vote will stay where it is.

PS I find it interesting that ehalc mentioned that if people just vote for someone to get them to die, we gain no information because everyone has an excuse.  Yet ehalc is voting for grujah.  I know he voiced different reasons for doing so but I just find it interesting.

Quoting this to discuss it in greater detail.

I want to point out that this is largely a post AGAINST lynching lurkers.

Also, the person who said "he is the scummiest of the people that have the most votes that I'd be willing to get on" is yuma, who has already clarified his position that he does find Grujah scummy.  So I don't know what the issue is.

[jotheonah]

Re: jo's #1453: "that wagon sure is picking up speed" can be said for any wagon on anyone.  If we make it whenever any wagon gets traction, we will never lynch.

It was not a criticism of the wagon. merely an observation. I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie.

Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome.

[ftl]

this may be the point where grujah should claim if he's some important town role that absolutely shouldn't die, because I don't see any other viable wagon forming before tomorrow when the soft deadline is. Though maybe he won't, I remember in MIX he was against the end-of-day claim meta. He should at least claim his card.

[eHalcyon]

Re: jo's #1453: "that wagon sure is picking up speed" can be said for any wagon on anyone.  If we make it whenever any wagon gets traction, we will never lynch.

It was not a criticism of the wagon. merely an observation. I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie.

Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome.

So which lynch would you support, and why?

Speaking of which, I still don't think you've given reasons for your initial 3 picks.  Unless I missed it.  And there was someone else who named three names without giving reasons.

[eHalcyon]

It was Voltaire.

And I wonder if I missed anyone else.

Also, jo, maybe you should elaborate on why you think Morgrim is a good lynch.  I don't see it, and as others have said -- you should know better.

Re: "we'll know scum-Morgrim when he appears" -- maybe I give the guy too much credit, but I think he could very easily pull one over on us.  His meta is not exactly difficult to fake.

[jotheonah]

I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.

All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.

eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.

ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.

Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.

Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.

If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?

[ftl]

Re: "we'll know scum-Morgrim when he appears" -- maybe I give the guy too much credit, but I think he could very easily pull one over on us.  His meta is not exactly difficult to fake.

Well, but that meta always gets him lynched anyway, despite me defending him. I doubt he'd play scum in the way that always gets him lynched. I'll worry about him pulling one over us when he gets through a game, playing like crazy morg, without getting lynched or vigged by a townie. At the moment, that's just something that doesn't happen, as far as I know. Or at least it hasn't in my games.

He can survive better, like when he was vig in MIX. There he got to the endgame. But he survived by playing more "normally". If he were scum trying that, he'd end up with scumtells from trying to play normally and being scum.

Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.

If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?

OK, if I really had no idea, then Morg. But I don't see the nonstandardness/Morgscumtell that you're seeing.

[jotheonah]

the Watno-Munch fight is on 40 and 41, but on the reread I'm not that into the Watno case anymore.

[Dsell]

Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.

[eHalcyon]

I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.

All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.

eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.

ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.

Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.

Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.

If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?

Can't really defend against "lots of little scumreads" without examples.  But OK.

I don't think ehunt was being controlling.  He was opinionated and lecture-y.  Meh.

Watno -- uhh... OK...

Morgrim -- he wasn't standard from the start, in that he sounded more coherent, and I mentioned it early in the game.  Apparently he was like that in MIX too (or some other game).  But he's still Mogrim-ish overall, and thus unreadable IMO.  Seriously, can you elaborate on what scumread you have?  You are being super ambiguous about it.

If I had no idea who was scum, it would depend on the other players.  If neither player looked scummy to me but some people had made cases on both, I would rather lynch Grujah -- more info.  To be clear, this is predicated on me hypothetically being forced to choose between two players without a read on either.  If there was absolutely nothing else to go on, then yeah, Morgrim, simply because he is far less helpful that Grujah could be.

But real games don't occur in a vacuum, so that scenario does not come up.

Grujah has been just about as helpful as Morgrim, which is to say not helpful at all.  He has since given an excuse, and that's fair, but it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have spoken up earlier that he would have spotty internet and not much time.  That is something I would expect town-Gruj to do.  I can imagine scum-Gruj in the same scenario willing to remain silent while others argue with each other.

[eHalcyon]

Re: "we'll know scum-Morgrim when he appears" -- maybe I give the guy too much credit, but I think he could very easily pull one over on us.  His meta is not exactly difficult to fake.

Well, but that meta always gets him lynched anyway, despite me defending him. I doubt he'd play scum in the way that always gets him lynched. I'll worry about him pulling one over us when he gets through a game, playing like crazy morg, without getting lynched or vigged by a townie. At the moment, that's just something that doesn't happen, as far as I know. Or at least it hasn't in my games.

He can survive better, like when he was vig in MIX. There he got to the endgame. But he survived by playing more "normally". If he were scum trying that, he'd end up with scumtells from trying to play normally and being scum.

How do you define "normally"?  Morgrim has been coherent in this game.

Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.

What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch?  Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.

[Dsell]

I don't like any of the lynches particularly. I have had some scum reads, but most of them I've been subsequently talked out of.

All my reasons for the first three votes (on Watno, ehunt, and eHalc) are totally findable by searching through my posts.

eHalc, like I said, was a matter of a lot of little scumreads throughout the day.

ehunt was trying to be controlling at the start of the day and then backed off.

Watno was because of one thing that happened, and now I can't remember what it was, but it seemed scumslippy at the time.

Now as for Morgrim7. He's not totally standard Morgrim7 from where I'm sitting. I'm getting a scumread. And he's a good D1 lynch for someone with no good candidates anyway, because the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset.

If you had no idea who was scum, who would you rather lynch: Morgrim7 or Grujah?

Can't really defend against "lots of little scumreads" without examples.  But OK.

I don't think ehunt was being controlling.  He was opinionated and lecture-y.  Meh.

Watno -- uhh... OK...

Morgrim -- he wasn't standard from the start, in that he sounded more coherent, and I mentioned it early in the game.  Apparently he was like that in MIX too (or some other game).  But he's still Mogrim-ish overall, and thus unreadable IMO.  Seriously, can you elaborate on what scumread you have?  You are being super ambiguous about it.

If I had no idea who was scum, it would depend on the other players.  If neither player looked scummy to me but some people had made cases on both, I would rather lynch Grujah -- more info.  To be clear, this is predicated on me hypothetically being forced to choose between two players without a read on either.  If there was absolutely nothing else to go on, then yeah, Morgrim, simply because he is far less helpful that Grujah could be.

But real games don't occur in a vacuum, so that scenario does not come up.

Grujah has been just about as helpful as Morgrim, which is to say not helpful at all.  He has since given an excuse, and that's fair, but it doesn't make sense why he wouldn't have spoken up earlier that he would have spotty internet and not much time.  That is something I would expect town-Gruj to do.  I can imagine scum-Gruj in the same scenario willing to remain silent while others argue with each other.

You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.

[eHalcyon]

You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.

I didn't say it was good scumplay.  Grujah did come back though, right when heat picked up on him.  I'm pretty sure I mentioned that earlier.  He didn't speak up until he had picked up several votes.

[Dsell]

Vote: Morgrim because we need a reason to talk more before the soft deadline and because I think it's a bit more likely to hit scum. You'll note that this is a change from my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd scummiest list, where I had Grujah listed as 3rd. I just don't agree with that anymore. Grujah is seeming townier, and while he doesn't strike me as really, really obvtown, he does strike me as the completely usual Day 1 lynch...which nearly always winds up hitting a townie.

What is your profile of the usual day 1 lynch?  Grujah doesn't seem like that to me.

He fits the profile because he's done something that nobody likes. In some games, it's a scumslip or mistaken phrasing, in some games it's lying, in this game it's being almost totally silent. It's the kind of thing that scum isn't going to do day one because it's just a mistake they just don't need to make, and they'll monitor their posts more closely to make sure they don't.

He's done something that's really indefensible, which gives everyone on the wagon the excuse to say, "Well he did X, so lynching him seemed like the right choice!" And what do you say to that? It's the kind of thing scum just doesn't (or hasn't) done Day 1 precisely because it's the kind of thing that gets people lynched.

[Dsell]

You cannot seriously think this is good scumplay from Grujah. If he was scum shying away from conversation he would have come back here so fast when there was much heat on him. And there has been for quite a while now.

I didn't say it was good scumplay.  Grujah did come back though, right when heat picked up on him.  I'm pretty sure I mentioned that earlier.  He didn't speak up until he had picked up several votes.

But my point is, don't you think scum Grujah would have responded sooner? Because it's way too dangerous to let a wagon form on you this late in the day as scum, and pretty much everyone has said something at some point about him lurking too much.