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[ehunt]

I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.

I've been trying to set aside my contrarianism and my general appreciation of O's playstyle to see if this "We need to change the meta on lurking" argument is one I should be landing on the other side of.

So, here is what I would like to hear a response about from Galzria, ehunt, and whomever else wants to pseudo-policy lynch O:

One of the best ways to catch scum from Day 2 onward is by looking at wagons. My big hangup on a lurker lynch, or any policy lynch, is that it's too safe a wagon to get on. Say we lynch O. Say he flips town. Then what do we really learn from an O wagon full of people who shrug their shoulders and say "Lynch all Lurkers, man."?

Well, O isn't guilty of lurking anymore. Is that because of the small wagon on him, or because he just decided out of the goodness of his heart to be helpful to town? We don't know. I basically agree with you that if the lurker ends up getting lynched without ever coming back it's a bad scenario for town - little information is gained. But if the lurker is still around at LyLo, that's even worse. The hope is to pressure the lurker into stopping lurking.

[cayvie]

I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.

I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?

Similar to Axxle.

Posting a minimum of content.

I'm just going through the thread right now, looking at each player's entire postlog by itself, and picking out the ones who I feel have contributed the least.

[Galzria]

I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.

I'm quoting the wrong post, but good point. Vote: Axxle for lurking, and apparent double voting (which may or may not be him).

[Dsell]

How about a vote: Axxle

He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.

I need to reread everything he's posted but I'm tentatively on board with this. I've been thinking for some time that he's been contentless.

[Voltaire]

I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.

I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?

Similar to Axxle.

Posting a minimum of content.

I'm just going through the thread right now, looking at each player's entire postlog by itself, and picking out the ones who I feel have contributed the least.

I'm doing the same thing. I'll post my list when done, cayvie. If you share yours, it should really help pressure those on both lists.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.

I'm quoting the wrong post, but good point. Vote: Axxle for lurking, and apparent double voting (which may or may not be him).

Why would double voting be anti town?

[Insomniac]

Go back and read the last X many scum QT's and there is always at least one person who suggests they'll just lurk their way through - AND IT WORKS - when it never, ever should.

And yet scum is still only under 50% win rate so obv lynch all lurkers isn't a good idea.

Do you think it would have been good to lynch bozzball in M2?

Also I will say that I have a problem with lurking in smaller games, but in games like this if no one lurks you just bog down the game and makes it less fun, I still like this game but I would have prefered a 13 or under version of this game, 25 is just massive. I also do not believe Robz giving the permission to hang back is the same as lurking, I'm posting far less this game than normal because I'm taking a Robz style if I don't have anything to say approach, if I didn't I'd go insane.

[Dsell]

How about a vote: Axxle

He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.

I need to reread everything he's posted but I'm tentatively on board with this. I've been thinking for some time that he's been contentless.

Erm, I know it doesn't look like it from the timestamp, but I had not seen Galz' post when I wrote this. I was catching up on the thread.

[Galzria]

I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.

I'm quoting the wrong post, but good point. Vote: Axxle for lurking, and apparent double voting (which may or may not be him).

Why would double voting be anti town?

It could be either.

[O]

No, I actually like wagons on me as a general rule. More fun as both town/scum (though much more fun as town because they're all wrong and you're all right).

If we try to go through this terrible meta of lynch all lurkers D1 I will just lurk D1 as town and get lynched enough times that people abandon the meta. Lurking later days is bad, it's really not that bad D1 and it just gives a perfect excuse for scum to lynch town with no repercussions (see my policy on "deadline and nolynch is bad" lynches, where ehunt would argue that 7 townies and 2 scum is a better position to be in than 8 townies and 2 scum)


Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).

[Voltaire]

How about a vote: Axxle

He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.

I need to reread everything he's posted but I'm tentatively on board with this. I've been thinking for some time that he's been contentless.

Erm, I know it doesn't look like it from the timestamp, but I had not seen Galz' post when I wrote this. I was catching up on the thread.

I wouldn't be so worried about being early on a wagon when it takes 13 to lynch. We've got to adjust our normal expectations.

[Voltgloss]

Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).

Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.

Not Galz though.  And with good reason.

[Insomniac]

Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).

Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.

Not Galz though.  And with good reason.

He left M2 out because there WAS a lurker problem there, he said the other ones DIDN'T have lurker issues. so M2 should be with MVII

[O]

Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).

Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.

Not Galz though.  And with good reason.

it was my understanding that the problem was that he was V/LA at a critical point, not lurking.

[Voltgloss]

Also we hardly have a major lurking problem in smaller games: MI, MII, MVIII, MX all didn't suffer from major lurking issues, just MVII did (with Galz, Robz, Eevee and Timchen nonetheless).

Bozzball, how quickly some forget ye.

Not Galz though.  And with good reason.

it was my understanding that the problem was that he was V/LA at a critical point, not lurking.

He posted, like, less than 10 times the entire thread.  I don't think I'm exaggerating.

Insom, I think you misread O's post.  Or maybe I did?  But based on O's response I don't think I did.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 1.12

shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (3) -- O, Jotheonah, ibgtennis
O (4) -- ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, Watno
Glooble (1) -- Grujah
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, Eevee
yuma (2) -- Voltaire, Morgrim7
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
cayvie (1) -- ftl
Axxle (2) -- cayvie, Galzria

Not Voting (6) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Dsell, yuma, Voltgloss, Cuzz

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)

[Galzria]

Lurkers;

Not only generally considered bad players, but often bad people as well.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lurking

Which basically sums up exactly why such tactics from any player are infuriating.

[eHalcyon]

If you're town and lurking you're simply being selfish. You're putting your own survival (in this community) above that of your factions win

Not necessarily.  If you have a power role, it may be best for town if you do your utmost to survive.

I agree on the whole though -- contributing is important and there are compelling reasons to lynch lurkers and liars.  But there are edge cases.

And I do believe that O is far from being the least helpful in the town at this point.

[Galzria]

If you're town and lurking you're simply being selfish. You're putting your own survival (in this community) above that of your factions win

Not necessarily.  If you have a power role, it may be best for town if you do your utmost to survive.

I agree on the whole though -- contributing is important and there are compelling reasons to lynch lurkers and liars.  But there are edge cases.

And I do believe that O is far from being the least helpful in the town at this point.

I agree, and I haven't singled him out. I was voting for him when, at the time, he was. Now not so much. Like I said, if everybody is participating, there's no problem.

[Watno]

Sry for not posting much, I had less time in the last couple of days then expected. It will probably get better tomorrow.

@Voltgloss:

I was hoping more scum would pile on before people started seriously questioning this wagon, but getting at least one scum to join (and I agree with yuma that probably at least one did) is worth something to talk about today.

What I was trying to say regarding this is that I find it a bit strange that you base your thoughts on assumption there's no real evidence for. I think it might be possible, that you in fact know there was scum on that wagon, but had to justify it because you couldn't admit you do.

Watno: you said the wagon on me looked scummy? is there a player in particular who jumps out at you?

Because it seemed kinda farfetched to me that you were intentionally fishing. Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye and Insomniac jump out to me a bit more, since they only voted after they were able to see that others were willing to believe it was intentional fishing.

@shraeye: In fact, i think posts #369 was pretty acti-lurky. Speculating about double votes and posting a wall of text about sarcasm don't really contribute to us getting a read on you. Same for posting a list of post numbers. Starting a discussion about wording doesn't get us further either. It looks like youre trying to get us to think you were saying a lot, while in fact, you aren't.
I don't see your problem with my post #608. If people post something i think might be scummy, i point it out and see if they can explain to me why they did. Since there's not a single person I'm convinced is scum yet, I can't go after them excessively.

I agree with Eevee that Grujah seems to be contributing little even in the few posts he makes.

vote: Captain Frisk for still having a vote on TheMunch "so he notices he mustn't edit posts".

Also, since quite a few people are saying differently, I want to point out that Robz didn't say alignments were random. What he said was that it wouldn't be obvious and some people's alignments would be random.

[Dsell]

Axxle's posted 17 times in the whole thread including pregame. There was very very little content in those posts when he did post. I know he mentioned today/yesterday that he wasn't going to be around quite as much but he hasn't posted here for two days. While I'm usually not a big fan of just straight up lynching lurkers, this is out of Axxle's character and his minor level of content has been quite superficial, a la FTL day 1 of BMV.

[Dsell]

Axxle's posted 17 times in the whole thread including pregame. There was very very little content in those posts when he did post. I know he mentioned today/yesterday that he wasn't going to be around quite as much but he hasn't posted here for two days. While I'm usually not a big fan of just straight up lynching lurkers, this is out of Axxle's character and his minor level of content has been quite superficial, a la FTL day 1 of BMV.

Oops, and I meant to include a Vote: Axxle.

[Glooble]

I don't think scum-double-voter-Axxle would have made his double voting so obvious so early on. Plus he hasn't been updating Cosmic Encounter either.

In other news, this town is huge. Some amount of lurking early on from some town is flat-out unavoidable. But I'm still okay with lynching the lurkiest player in the absence of a better option. Grujah still fits that definition though, so my vote stays.

I genuinely thought when ehunt said "post once a day" he meant game day. Knowing he means real life day, I have no problem with that strategy. I often can't manage to get online more often than that myself.

[Dsell]

I don't think scum-double-voter-Axxle would have made his double voting so obvious so early on.

Gah, this is true and probably obvious. It's a whole bunch of WIFOM, but Unvote for now.

[Watno]

Also, Dsell, dont you think the behaviour your pointing out with Axxle is even more extreme with Grujah?