Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[eHalcyon]

eHalcyon: hm. I don't see what Voltgloss is seeing in eHalc's posts. The cult-hunting instead of mafia-hunting? Slight scumread based on that. 

If I were to guess, it might be because I made a big deal about cult hunting but then did not actually try to cult-hunt.  The reason is that I really have no idea how to go about cult-hunting, other than regular scumhunting.  I do believe that a cult is legitimately more dangerous than other scum UNLESS it is balanced by some special twists.  I trust that, if there is a cult, Robz will have accounted for it.

[Voltaire]

also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?

Do you think so, or is that OMGUS?  I don't know, it's the closest thing I've seen to a scumslip so far.  I just haven't voted for anyone yet.  You don't even have anyone else voting for you, do you?

Axxle called joth out for fighting too much with only 1 vote in 232. It seems to be a pattern with him.

[ashersky]

I want to hear more from Ashersky.

He was one of those slipped-under-my-radar-types who I always feel compelled to go back and reread, and at first the case was looking pretty good. I was thinking he wasn't an absentee lurker (like grujah has been, hard to be suspicious when it's RL reasons) and he had posted a few little things without a lot of content (such as calling out Shraeye's "scumslip" which was just sarcasm, calling out yuma without joining the wagon, and voting O because it's easy). Then I saw the post where he says he was moving this week and the case went from "possible scum trying to fit in" to "somewhat absentee due to RL." And I totally get it, but I'd like to request more content from you when you are able to post.

I realize I might look a bit like a hypocrite here since I haven't been very loud or involved. But like I've said, I'm definitely surveying everything to try to get reads, and when I find something like this, I will post it.

Dsell, fair point, I've been a bit quiet.  As you noted, I am mid-move (hotel wifi now) but will try to contribute.  Except not right now, unfortunately.   A bit more to do, but I wanted to respond to let you know I saw it and will respond, hopefully later tonight.

[jotheonah]

also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?

Do you think so, or is that OMGUS?  I don't know, it's the closest thing I've seen to a scumslip so far.  I just haven't voted for anyone yet.  You don't even have anyone else voting for you, do you?

OMGUS would involve my actually voting you. But here's why I found it scummy. I say something that apparently reads like i know O's alignment (I explained why that's not the case). Watno asks what appears to me to be a clarifying question. You, in one swell foop, deem it a scum slip and cast a vote. But it all happens so fast that you make it look like Watno called it a scum slip. It just read to me like you (1) trying to make a much too big deal out of a thing and (2) trying to make it look like you were following, rather than leading.

TL;DR I meant what I said. The vote itself was scummy. (Regardless of how many others I do or don't have on me)

[Voltaire]

10. Voltaire - I'll hold off on him until he posts these "thoughts" from this "reread".

I'm doing this at work, this thread has 35+ pages. I'm at post 675.

[yuma]

Couple of things:

The shift in thinking from scum to town for me is largely one of self preservation. As scum, if I had the amount of suspicion I have on me now, I would be saying all kinds of things in defense of my behavior. But at the moment, I'm really not feeling the need to. I think a better focus for my energy would be finding a lynch target with a better chance of being scum.

I don't know if I would categorize you as having a high amount of suspicion right now... Immediately after your post is a vote count wherein I am the only one voting for you. A handful of others have expressed a suspicion of you, but that is to be expected with 25 players. So, truthfully we don't know how you would act if you were under a high amount of suspicion.

But even if you were, this isn't a great argument. But thanks for answering my question

yuma, who out there (if anyone) has still failed to respond to your outstanding questions? 

I believe the last of them was answered by Glooble in the quote above.


And lastly, I have a suggestion on how to handle our time as we get closer to the deadline. I would like feedback as this could have both positive and negative repercussions that I haven't completely hashed out yet.

1. We set a soft deadline (Perhaps this upcoming Wednesday, midnight forum time?)
2. We treat that deadline as a hard deadline in that immediately after that deadline a vote count (either official or unofficial is good) is established.
3. From that point onward we treat the rest of Day 1 as if a no-lynch and a night w/o kills occurred.
4. This will allow us to look back on voting patterns from a deadline point of view and also be able to speculate and become more suspicious of people who may have caused us to "no-lynch"
5. From there work further on the wagons that existed at our soft deadline and potentially form new wagons on those who did not help the town move toward a lynch.

I think this plan is good because I believe a lynch to be better than a no lynch. (Of course I do also believe that a player should not vote for someone on whom he has a very very strong town read on) but that is a poor town excuse (because someone with a super strong town read Day 1 is rare) or is a scum excuse (see O in MVIII).

thoughts?

[eHalcyon]

also also, that quick vote on me is scuuummmyyy. Volt, can you get back in here with that promised eHalc case?

Do you think so, or is that OMGUS?  I don't know, it's the closest thing I've seen to a scumslip so far.  I just haven't voted for anyone yet.  You don't even have anyone else voting for you, do you?

OMGUS would involve my actually voting you. But here's why I found it scummy. I say something that apparently reads like i know O's alignment (I explained why that's not the case). Watno asks what appears to me to be a clarifying question. You, in one swell foop, deem it a scum slip and cast a vote. But it all happens so fast that you make it look like Watno called it a scum slip. It just read to me like you (1) trying to make a much too big deal out of a thing and (2) trying to make it look like you were following, rather than leading.

TL;DR I meant what I said. The vote itself was scummy. (Regardless of how many others I do or don't have on me)

I'm thinking of OMGUS as more of an attitude than the voting action itself.

Read over my post again.  Watno did indeed catch it, and asked about it.  I said it was a POSSIBLE scum slip.  I called it that.  I'll own it.  I didn't say it was definitely a scum slip either -- I gave the example that I myself didn't notice you doing that.  Still, it was interesting enough that I thought I would cast my first vote.  I'm not at all trying to make it look like I'm following.  As the one who cast the vote, I am leading.


Interestingly enough, I recall you doing this very thing you are calling "scummy" in MVI.  Galzria said something a little funny.  I called it out but I didn't vote -- I only questioned it.  And then you jumped right in immediately after me and cast a vote on Galz.  And remember, in that case, you and Galz were both town.  So maybe we should suspect Watno in this situation.

Am I remembering incorrectly?  I can go look for that exchange, if you'd like.  I have to get going though, so it would be later tonight.

[jotheonah]

That sounds familiar. I did not play that game super well. I'm not voting you over this anyway, eHal. I will weigh it in with whatever else comes out against you (which is so far ... a whole lot of nothing).

Voltgloss, though. Voltgloss is a player I respect, and when he gears up for a case like this and finally offers it up it's usually good. Or it's NOT good and the gearing and offering itself is part of an elaborate gambit. But whatever it is, I'm waiting with baited breath.

[shraeye]

12. O - strong town read.

Hey Glooble, could you help me out here.  Which posts by O are driving these thoughts.  I recently scanned his posts and I still can't get a solid read on O, as he rarely puts out his opinion (or at least his explanation of these opinions.  There are a lot of "X reads as town" or "Y is scummier than Z here", but these are conclusions, not explanations).  It just seems weird that you'd have a strong read on him one way or the other at this point.

[TheMunch]

In the case of Shraeye, I really didn't get any kind of scummy vibe and I felt people misinterpretted his "scumslip."  So the people that jumped on him for a hunch feel kind of scummy to me.  Here, I'm using the argument that scum would often jump on wagons of town to attempt to kill a town during the day.

This is sidestepping the question I posed.  You said that you felt the "scumslip" was a poor reason.  OK.  So why are people who vote for OTHER reasons sketchy or scummy?  Just because there was a bad reason to vote for someone doesn't mean all other reasons are invalidated.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying they are sketchy entirely because they voted for a different reason.  I'm saying they are sketchy because they seemed to have jumped on him for no reason, and then backed off without explaining.  Not only till just recently did glooble actually comment on that, and If you saw my response, I still wasn't happy with it.

For the Yuma wagon, I find it hard to evaluate the wagon as anything but a mess a posteriori.  This is not in conflict with the fact that I felt that Yuma was scummy.  Like I said, I participated in the wagon for a different reason than everyone else.  I didn't like the way he was defending himself.  Yet it was his defense that led everyone else to believe that Yuma's "rolefishing" was just an honest mistake.  Therefore I can both believe the wagon was a mess and still believe Yuma was scummy and participate in the wagon.

Yes, but how was it a mess?  You thought he was scummy, so how was the wagon a mess?  Given that there was a wagon on him, why shouldn't yuma have been defensive?

It was a mess because it grew incredibly quickly and died for no reason.  I thought he was scummy; the wagon was a mess for the reasons why it formed and disbanded, myself excluded; I can believe Yuma was being scummy, then vote for him thus participating in the wagon, without participating for the reasons the others were, which I disagree with.  Yuma is allowed to be defensive; he probably shouldn't have exploded though.  He was way too concerned he was going to die from that wagon and "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it" is not a good defense.

As for the O wagon, I think by now it is no surprise that I wasn't a fan of O at the time (notice how I have unvoted since then).  It is perfectly reasonable for me to not like the way that O is playing, and want him to not participate anymore regardless of his alignment.  My feelings were strong enough that I felt that he would not be a valuable asset to have regardless of whether or not I thought he was town and I wanted to get rid of him.  But my personal feelings about how he plays have no bearing.  What is important is what information we gain by whether or not O flips town.  I really dont think there is much to be gained by O's death at this time so I retracted my vote.

That wasn't the point I was getting at.  I was noting how it's completely wrong for town to want another townie dead.  I won't press it because it might just be a trick of phrasing, but I wanted to point out how that is absolutely the wrong attitude to take.

First off let me say I dont know that O is town; I dont know what you know.  He has become civil and I am able to deal with him now but that doesn't mean hes actually contributed.  He has said nothing of value enough for anyone to have a read on him, imo.  But that doesn't mean it is completely wrong for town to want another town dead.  If that town is contributing poorly, somehow disrupting the game, and being a bad townie, then it is quite fathomable to want another townie dead.  Contribution is paramount and O hasn't provided any.

Lastly, on my reread, I still got scum vibes from ehunt but dont have much to back them up and I dont really want to commit to weak feelings and hunches.  However, what is important is what information is to be gained from ehunt dying, and I really dont see that much to be gained.  There weren't that many hop-ons and most peoples problems with ehunt were resolved by a clarification from ehunt, followed by his increased posting frequency.  I dont think there is much to be gained from his death D1.

Your original thoughts about ehunt still look super, super hedgy.  Not just "playing devil's advocate" hedgy or even "unsure townie" hedgy.  Just like, "I want to accuse ehunt of being scummy, and his wagon too, but I don't want to be linked to it."

I was on the ehunt wagon.  I was on it cause I thought he was being scummy.  I am linked to it and anyone can reread and see it.  Not trying to distance myself from anything; no regrets.  That being said, my point was that the ehunt wagon didn't really ever amount to anything and I dont think it has any value.  Thats all.

I'll say this -- I think it is a decent idea to look for the most informative lynch... in theory.  But in practice, if people are voting for Bob because it will be most informative, then it is no longer informative.  Everyone on his wagon has that excuse -- they voted because it would give information!

Now, you could carry it further back and look at the little mini-wagons that formed early on day 1... but that info is less reliable because it is still partially influenced by RVS and because wagons on day 1 are formed on the shakiest of evidence.

I think lynching for information would be better later in the game.  But always, always, trying to find scum is the best thing to do.  Trying to figure out the most informative lynch is not helpful.

This isn't what I am trying to accomplish.  I dont think we both mean the same thing when I say wagon, so let me be perfectly clear.  By wagon, I mean to say a group of people that voted for a particular person for some shared reason or over a shared period of time.  We have already had these wagons.  I am not attempting to make ANOTHER yuma wagon, or an ehunt wagon, or an O wagon.  What i'm trying to do is find out if we kill ehunt, or yuma, or O, which one of the wagons that has ALREADY HAPPENED will provide the most information if its target is dead.  Lets say we decide to kill yuma because it would provide the most valuable information; then I'm not nearly as concerned with the people that helped vote to kill (for the sake of flipping his card) as the people on the earlier wagons.  It is impossible to find scum day 1.  I want to make day 2 as informed as possible and "trying to figure out the most informative lynch" is precisely the way to do it.  In fact, it bothers me that you are so against the idea of trying to gain as much information as possible.  Kinda scummy to me.  Vote: eHalcyon

[Cuzz]

2 things:

Yuma is allowed to be defensive; he probably shouldn't have exploded though.  He was way too concerned he was going to die from that wagon and "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it" is not a good defense.

That actually is a fine defense. It can be a softclaim of a PR. Lynching PRs is bad.

But that doesn't mean it is completely wrong for town to want another town dead.  If that town is contributing poorly, somehow disrupting the game, and being a bad townie, then it is quite fathomable to want another townie dead.  Contribution is paramount and O hasn't provided any.

It's wrong for town to want town dead. That is directly in opposition to your win condition. It's fine to want a lynch over a no-lynch with the understanding that the person being lynched is probably town, but there's no good reason to want to lynch someone you actually have a townread on.

[Dsell]

It is impossible to find scum day 1.

This isn't true! It's usually true, but that right there means it's not impossible. They managed to do it in the Blitz game that just ended (although that was based on a random lynch) and we nearly pulled it off in another game, even though it was pretty large.

It kinda depends on whether there are multiple scumteams or just one. If there's just one I think it'd be a bit harder to get a wagon really going on one of them.

But mostly I don't think it's a very productive attitude to have. It can be done, we just need to look outside the box, which might actually be easier for you since you're not steeped in f.ds mafia games.

[Voltgloss]

Voltgloss, though. Voltgloss is a player I respect, and when he gears up for a case like this and finally offers it up it's usually good. Or it's NOT good and the gearing and offering itself is part of an elaborate gambit. But whatever it is, I'm waiting with baited breath.

No gambit here.  As said before, I need to reread to see if the case makes as much sense as I think it does.  And if it doesn't, I'll cheerfully admit/explain that. 

But if it does make sense?  Then yes, I'm going to present something that I - at least - think will warrant serious consideration.

Unfortunately RL and work pretty much demand that my opportunity to reread and present the case likely won't happen until tomorrow evening.  Will try to expedite but can't promise I'll be successful.  Tomorrow evening without fail, though.

PPE:  I think my case will be an example of "look[ing] outside the box" as Dsell referenced in his last post.  We'll see what everyone else thinks once I have it out there.

[Morgrim7]

Ok, here we go...

4. Grujah - still my top candidate. He has two substantive posts I found - the one voting for me for "playing just how I always play" and an analysis of everyone's metas, which would be such an easy way for scum to get in a long post without forming any opinions.
12. O - strong town read.

I'm with you all the way on Grujah. In fact, my vote is already on him. We have some time yet, so I'm gonna keep it there. But, coming up so close to the deadline, I'd really go with most lynches.
What? Could you please explain your read on O? I don't get a town vibe from him at all.
and now, mine
1. Ftl: I'm Ok with lynching him, I guess. Not optimal, though
2. Voltgloss: Looking pretty town
3. Eevee: I could lynch him
4. Grujah: PRIMARY LYNCH.
5. Insomniac: Looks ok, I guess. Would lynch him though
6. Glooble: I would also lynch him, but I wan to see an explanation first
7. Dsell: Would lynch him to.
8. Jotheonah: looks town
9. Young Nick: poor guy.
10. Voltaire: I would lynch him.
11. Axxle: Would lynch him too.
12. O: SECONDARY LYNCH
13. Cayvie: looking townish, but also scummy. meh, no read
14. Shraeye: Would lynch
15. Cuzz: no read
16. Yuma: meh, idk
17. igbtennis: no read
18. TheMunch: looks pretty ok, but I would still lynch him
19. Morgrim7: I would totally lynch him
20. EHalcyon: TERTIARY LYNCH A i'm ok with lynching him and he already has a wagon
21. Watno
22. Galzria
23. Captain_Frisk: not participating much, which isn't like him at all. very odd. scummy even TERTIARY LYNCH B
24. ehunt TERTIARY LYNCH C " eHal
25. ashersky: no read

[yuma]

I am going to jump in to the argument that eHal and TheMunch are having about me, but w/o me...

Yuma is allowed to be defensive; he probably shouldn't have exploded though.  He was way too concerned he was going to die from that wagon and "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it" is not a good defense.

Here are my two quotes that TheMunch is referencing:

But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.

This whole investigation is blowing a mistake into something else and I feel even worse because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention. If it does end up that I get lynched, I apologize for putting town in this position, but I do not apologize for rolefishing, because I didn't! Town is simply misinterpreting my post in the same way that I misinterpreted cayvies!

I would argue that in neither of these posts--mind you they are excerpts from them and not the entire post, click the link to see them in whole--do I say or even imply that "I'm too important and if I die, town is going to regret it."

What I do say is that "town is going to pay the consequences" and that I would feel bad getting lynched for this "because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention"

I believe that TheMunch is mischaracterizing my posts and potentially confusing them with a similar post (ehunt apparently had a similar post according to TheMunch, see below) although I personally do not remember ehunt making this argument. Could you point it out to us Munch?

Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip.  I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line.  I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched.  You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss.  I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing.  It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy.  You get my Vote: Yuma.

In no way was I saying "I am too important and town will regret it" instead I was saying "Sorry guys, I messed up, if I get lynched mafia will either not have to even vote for me or will have to do very little work to get a townie lynched"

[cayvie]

Hm, I think I buy that.

[Young Nick]

Ha.

Ha ha.

I just got internet.

I have 37 pages to read.

I have no free time.

Ha.

[cayvie]

Ha.

Ha ha.

I just got internet.

I have 37 pages to read.

I have no free time.

Ha.

vote: young nick

excuses are for scum >:|

[Young Nick]

I am so intimidated by the size and length of this game that I wouldn't even be that upset.

[Young Nick]

OMGUS

Vote: cayvie

[Young Nick]

Also, scanning through while looking for my name, someone (I think jotheonah) said they were looking forward to my analysis. That's not happening soon. I might have internet now, but I am still relatively LA, as I have let Robz know. I would greatly appreciate some summary and may or may not have time to read all 37 pages. So yeah, this is a really rough start for me. The game literally could not have started at a worse time for me and all the roles make the meta so much harder. Newbie-friendly my ass.

[Young Nick]

Like c'mon now, I don't even have multiple pages of "Recent Unread Posts." I used to be able to get that up to three pages in less than 24 hours.

The rest of f.ds is totally silent. And then, ZM2 starts and ends while I am gone. And then MXII starts before I even have a chance to see the pre-game sign up.

Why is the only thing that is happening here Mafia? Dark Ages came out! Go play Dominion, sheesh. All of you.

I ask that for three days, no one posts, I won't ask robz to mod-prod anyone and then maybe we could be on equal footing.  (Not a serious request.)

[Captain_Frisk]

Like c'mon now, I don't even have multiple pages of "Recent Unread Posts." I used to be able to get that up to three pages in less than 24 hours.

The rest of f.ds is totally silent. And then, ZM2 starts and ends while I am gone. And then MXII starts before I even have a chance to see the pre-game sign up.

Why is the only thing that is happening here Mafia? Dark Ages came out! Go play Dominion, sheesh. All of you.

I ask that for three days, no one posts, I won't ask robz to mod-prod anyone and then maybe we could be on equal footing.  (Not a serious request.)

Just do what I did and skip it.

I think the summary is: nothing happened that you can't read later, and o may have been scummy.

Now you are caught up.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh, and the munch edited a post

[TheMunch]

Oh, and the munch edited a post

You're still on that?! <3  Clearly I'm hiding everything in that post and I dont like that you caught me so Vote: Captain_Frisk