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[Voltaire]

I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.

I've been trying to set aside my contrarianism and my general appreciation of O's playstyle to see if this "We need to change the meta on lurking" argument is one I should be landing on the other side of.

So, here is what I would like to hear a response about from Galzria, ehunt, and whomever else wants to pseudo-policy lynch O:

One of the best ways to catch scum from Day 2 onward is by looking at wagons. My big hangup on a lurker lynch, or any policy lynch, is that it's too safe a wagon to get on. Say we lynch O. Say he flips town. Then what do we really learn from an O wagon full of people who shrug their shoulders and say "Lynch all Lurkers, man."?

I know you didn't ask me, but I think I can answer - we don't gain any meaningful information in this game. We do create a better meta for future games. And therein lies the problem. It is better for all games if we Lynch all Lurkers, but it is never good for an individual game to policy-lynch a lurker.

[Galzria]

You learn the same as any other lynch on a townie D1. The people onboard will be naturally suspicious, the people not onboard will be less suspicious.

The advantage is that you'll be left with a town full of people who are willing to talk and take stances on things, and making associations and statements that can be evaluated later.

Or, you can lynch people who talk and are active, hit town anyway (like always happens), and be left with people who've done nothing, said nothing, taken no stances, and been uninvolved.

But hey, penalize people for playing, and reward others for not. That makes sense.

[Eevee]

I know people find mind-changing really scummy, so bear with me here.

I don't! I don't think too many people do either, really.

Agreed.

[jotheonah]

You learn the same as any other lynch on a townie D1. The people onboard will be naturally suspicious, the people not onboard will be less suspicious.

I don't think that's true though. Everyone on the wagon will have the same perfectly good, community-sanctioned reason for being on it. We won't learn anything by analyzing when and why they voted like we normally can.

[Galzria]

Also, cross posting this at the suggestion of Yuma and Voltgloss:

Well, my PoV is from that of almost always town:

Town has one weapon: Their voice.

As the game progresses, town starts with 0 information and gains more by detailing what every other player did with their weapon. By collecting this information, town can deduce who has used their weapon honestly, and who has done so dishonestly - we accomplish this by holding each individuals words and votes against the continuous stream of alignment flips.

When a player, scum or otherwise, comes along and fails to participate (intentionally or not), they are depriving the town of knowledge: how they use their weapon. As the game goes on, and we have more and more alignment flips, what we haven't learned becomes much more pronounced.

Every person is going to have a scale of townie things they've done on one side, and scummy on the other. At any given point the town must decide who is most likely scum - and they will need a larger than majority town vote to do so. Considerthat even on the most pressure free D1 in a standard setup, it takes 5 of 9 to lynch - but to lynch scum takes 5 of 7. D2 is 4 of 5 and D3 is 3 of 3.

Because of this, a player who contributes nothing has little to no weight on his scale. The town has nothing to judge him by, and no reason to trust his opinions when he does post something. With an ever increasing % of the town vote needed to lynch scum, town must make come to a consensus on the following choices:

Vote a lurker whom we know nothing of

Or

Vote someone who has inevitably done some scummy things throughout the game

You are penalizing people for playing the game every single time you choose the second option - and as each deadline draws nearer, the issue becomes more compounded, increasing the pressure to choose option 2.

What's truly sad is that the "lurker" has just as often been town as scum - but that's irrelevant. One individual is not greater than the whole in Mafia, and thus any town member involved in the game who chooses to lurk is not only playing for selfish reasons of wanting to stay alive longer, but is also both making the game significantly harder for town to win, and making it less enjoyable for the people who signed up to play - because those people take the fall time and again while the lurkers get to stay alive.

[Voltgloss]

(The above by Galz is from the just-finished ZM2 spectators' thread, FYI.)

[O]

you guys have managed to fill this thread with page after page of contentless drivel about lurking. Meanwhile, you've all failed to realized I'm not really lurking.

*slow clap*

I for one think scum are in the people dominating the discussion at the moment, so I shall focus there.

[Voltaire]

you guys have managed to fill this thread with page after page of contentless drivel about lurking. Meanwhile, you've all failed to realized I'm not really lurking.

We know you're not lurking. We know you're reading the thread. You're just not saying anything helpful. (For whoever asked me awhile back how I knew O was doing this, I already explained, but here's my proof I was right)

Until the second part of your post, O, which is helpful. You should post more like that.

[jotheonah]

I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.

[Voltaire]

I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.

The discussion came up organically in that QT and was not related to this game originally, but to the f.ds meta. Others suggested it could be helpful if posted here. If it's fair play for everyone to have the whole thing, here: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/Z9hvg6r59bnQ

[Galzria]

I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.

It's A) a community discussion, B) wasn't directly relevant to this thread, and C) was an explanation as to why I won't be participating in any other Mafia games.

[cayvie]

Maaan.

I hope Young Nick has some good things to say when he joins us tomorrow.

[jotheonah]

I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.

But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."

ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.

[eHalcyon]

I'm sort of annoyed at Galz for taking the discussion out-of-thread. That kind of leaves me no choice but to believe he's legitimate about his anti-lurking status, but it hardly seems like fair play.

It's A) a community discussion, B) wasn't directly relevant to this thread, and C) was an explanation as to why I won't be participating in any other Mafia games.

You're dropping out of future games?  Huh?




On topic: I have a town read on O right now.  I feel he is contributing little, but enough.  There are less helpful people (ibg, for instance), so why isn't there any pressure there?  There are other players who feel absent as well, though I'm not sure if their post counts reflect it.  Glooble, for example.  Watno, a little bit.  Maybe they've been around (hard to tell in such a big game) but I don't remember much of them at all.

[cayvie]

How about a vote: Axxle

He hasn't said anything in a couple days, and didn't really say all the much before then.

[Insomniac]

I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.

But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."

ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.

To be fair even though it was a town on town fight I feel our argument in ZM2 was super beneficial to the rest of the people playing and helped get reasoning which did finger frisk even if Robz was the only one voting him for random reasons.

[Captain_Frisk]

I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.

But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."

ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.

To be fair even though it was a town on town fight I feel our argument in ZM2 was super beneficial to the rest of the people playing and helped get reasoning which did finger frisk even if Robz was the only one voting him for random reasons.

I wasn't even egging you guys on!

[Insomniac]

I dispute point B. I was, previously, in the position of having to decide if you really felt this way or if it was a mafia tactic to push a townie lynch and still look clean day 2 (which was the reason for my question above). By discussing it elsewhere, you've heavily biased me toward thinking this is an issue you IRL feel passionate about, which I totally get.

But do you see why it's kind of muddy to do that while that argument is the talk du jour in here? Like if, during ZM2 Day 1 I had started a thread in Forum Games and been like "We really need to random lynch."

ANYWAY, both in-game and out I'm trying hard to meet you halfway on this lurker thing (in no small part because you're one of my favorite players and I don't want to see you leave the community). But what would help me a lot is if you would answer my concern above about producing low-information wagons.

To be fair even though it was a town on town fight I feel our argument in ZM2 was super beneficial to the rest of the people playing and helped get reasoning which did finger frisk even if Robz was the only one voting him for random reasons.

I wasn't even egging you guys on!

Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...

[Captain_Frisk]

Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...

I'm not, because I'm not this time.

[cayvie]

I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.

[Eevee]

How can you guys discuss going after lurkers and not even mention my case on Grujah? I'm starting to wonder if I even remembered to post it..

[Insomniac]

I'd prefer Axxle or Watno at the moment.

I saw your case for Axxle but why Watno?

[Voltaire]

Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...

Not for that reason, because that's not how odds work. o wait, Robz made this game.

Seriously though, I'll vote Frisk only if he's doing his normal scummy thing, and I can't tell yet. Now that my games have calmed down I can devote more time to this one, so I'm re-reading the thread. I'm only on post 299.

[Captain_Frisk]

Anybody up for a Frisk lynch? He's sort of always scum...

Not for that reason, because that's not how odds work. o wait, Robz made this game.

Seriously though, I'll vote Frisk only if he's doing his normal scummy thing, and I can't tell yet. Now that my games have calmed down I can devote more time to this one, so I'm re-reading the thread. I'm only on post 299.

I'm not sure what my normal scummy thing is, as I try to play the same way - and my lurkiness / involvement is proportional proportional to game size and madness, but if and when I do it, you'll find you're mistaken.

[Galzria]

I disagree on the wagon information still, but even conceding you that point, you're left with:

Low information wagon, high information people.

The problem isn't today. It's not tomorrow. It's down the line in lylo, or the day before.

Town wins by accumulating information over the course of a game on each individual. Giving anybody a pass from providing that information is ridiculous. There's a reason "Lynch all Liars" exist. There's a reason "Lynch all Lurkers" exist. Is it detrimental to the game you're currently in? Possibly. But the people responsible are the ones that lurked. If you're town and lurking you're simply being selfish. You're putting your own survival (in this community) above that of your factions win. Not only are your opinions worthless later on, but you've established no record of trust with your fellow teammembers. This is a team game, not an individual exercise.

What our boils down to is: If you sign up, play. If you roll scum, do whatever the hell you want - you're scum after all. But if you roll town you should actively be trying to help town win. If you're actively NOT trying, then it's in Towns best interest not to have you there. Maybe not this game, but long-term. Because town needs contributions from every player. If every player is participating, then there's no issue. If someone lurks, lynch them and find scum. But the moment you claim that we should lynch scummy behavior before lurking, you've essentially said that you'll lynch every player before a lurker - because every player is inevitably scummy at some point for something.

So yes, it's an entire meta shift to better, stronger town play. Go back and read the last X many scum QT's and there is always at least one person who suggests they'll just lurk their way through - AND IT WORKS - when it never, ever should.