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[shraeye]

Eevee, I too think you're exactly as wrong as ftl. I expect him to be mafia, and hope people can see past his past behavior and have the sense to realize that "Morgrim is Morgrim" is not a defense we should be willing to give anyone.

[shraeye]

(unfortunately the parallels between your post and mine, eevee, were lost by the page jump)

[Cuzz]

Shraeye, I too think Morgrim is a bad lynch. I don't expect him to be mafia, and hope people can see past his behavior and have the sense to go after someone else today.

And go after someone else I will. Vote: Eevee.

I've found Eevee to be super townie and helpful in the past (as town), and I'm really just not getting that this game. This is the biggest sign for me that Eevee is scum, but theres a few others:

Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?

This comes off as something like "wow am I really getting away with this?"

And finally:

Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.

I call shenanigans on this. It seems like a very nice excuse for voting for town. It's asking to be absolved of any responsibility in event of a mislynch. "Oh, I thought they were town, but I couldn't resist the bonus just in case!" And it seems like a plausible part of a role, of course, because someone else has already claimed an analogous one.

I know we're getting toward the deadline, and I'm making a plurality lynch more difficult by voting someone with no votes on currently. But there are still undecided people out there, and we've still got some time, so hop on the wagon if you like the case.

[shraeye]

Shraeye, I too think Morgrim is a bad lynch. I don't expect him to be mafia, and hope people can see past his behavior and have the sense to go after someone else today.

And go after someone else I will. Vote: Eevee.

I've found Eevee to be super townie and helpful in the past (as town), and I'm really just not getting that this game. This is the biggest sign for me that Eevee is scum, but theres a few others:

Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?

This comes off as something like "wow am I really getting away with this?"

And finally:

Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.

I call shenanigans on this. It seems like a very nice excuse for voting for town. It's asking to be absolved of any responsibility in event of a mislynch. "Oh, I thought they were town, but I couldn't resist the bonus just in case!" And it seems like a plausible part of a role, of course, because someone else has already claimed an analogous one.

I know we're getting toward the deadline, and I'm making a plurality lynch more difficult by voting someone with no votes on currently. But there are still undecided people out there, and we've still got some time, so hop on the wagon if you like the case.

This is a decent argument.  I'd say i'm 20% behind an eevee lynch today [0% behind a lynch is pure-neutral read for me, I'd be some positive percent against lynching if they were towny to me].  I'll do a reread on eevee to see my take on him.

[Eevee]

I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
How is me having a town read on Morg scummy, Cuzz? Because you are scum with him and know I'm wrong? I almost never OMGUS, but man am I tempted to do it here.

@shraeye
It's possible I'm wrong about morgrim. Why is my read scummy though? Are you thinking we must be a scum pair?

[Voltaire]

Definitely don't see the case on Eevee. It seems like the sort of joke I would make (in fact, will probably make later on) when returning from a lurking phase. Nothing seems scummy about it.

@Morgrim - well, we all knew this would happen.

For those who are too lazy to read my posts, here's my original reasoning. Note that this does not reflect my current voting:

If we do indeed decide to do this, here's my three votes. Probably gone this weekend, but I might have time to poke in. I don't have strong scum reads on anyone at the moment. This was tricky.

Primary Vote: ashersky (for lurking in plain sight while calling on others not to lurk, and for being on the terrible shraeye wagon)
Secondary Vote: jotheonah (He's squirmed a lot with only 1 vote on him, tried to drive ehunt wagon, thinks lynching lurkers is a bad idea...some of it seems like a difference in playstyles, some of it feels like a scum vibe)
Third Vote: Watno (I haven't gotten substance from him, his tunneling of Munch was bizarre, plus "gut feel" from earlier)

No vote on Frisk anymore as he's changed his behavior for the better. Doesn't make him town, but it takes him from scum to neutral in my eyes.

PPE: Ugh. Don't make me change my mind.

I then realized ashersky was V/LA. Since then, all that's happened is that I bumped everyone up and added Frisk back on as the 3rd vote. This is very fluid and there are lots of changes I'd be willing to make.

I think the proper way to deal with the whole 2nd/3rd tier votes is that if there aren't obviously 2 wagons or so after everyone votes that we take an imaginary votecount where everyone's 2nd votes count too and figure out if we have wagons. If we do, then those are the wagons and everyone shifts around like that. It's kinda like Instant Runoff Voting which is great in huge groups like this.

I was happy to see shraeye also vote for jotheonah but disappointed it was for silly reasons.

So...keep the votes coming?

[Axxle]

I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).

Your last act as town was helping lynch sparky, who I had no clue was scum.

[Cuzz]

I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
How is me having a town read on Morg scummy, Cuzz? Because you are scum with him and know I'm wrong? I almost never OMGUS, but man am I tempted to do it here.

@shraeye
It's possible I'm wrong about morgrim. Why is my read scummy though? Are you thinking we must be a scum pair?

I in no way said your town read on Morgrim was scummy. I said three other things were scummy. I was merely using the last sentence of that first quote as a way to introduce my vote (but sorry for the confusion).

[Voltaire]

Oh, looks like I missed Eevee's small roleclaim. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[Eevee]

More detailed rebuttal, hope I don't mess up the quotes. Answered the top part already.

Okay, surprised to see no one suspecting me. Have I been so lurky you don't even remember I'm playing or what is it?

This comes off as something like "wow am I really getting away with this?"

I hadn't posted in ages and felt guilty for not doing my part in helping town. It was exactly as you described, except I didnt really want to get away with it.

Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.

I call shenanigans on this. It seems like a very nice excuse for voting for town. It's asking to be absolved of any responsibility in event of a mislynch. "Oh, I thought they were town, but I couldn't resist the bonus just in case!" And it seems like a plausible part of a role, of course, because someone else has already claimed an analogous one.

I know we're getting toward the deadline, and I'm making a plurality lynch more difficult by voting someone with no votes on currently. But there are still undecided people out there, and we've still got some time, so hop on the wagon if you like the case.

.
I disagree that scum would benefit from making a lie like this, because it would also force them to vote for their scumbuddy if he was to become our target. I think the "restriction" is anti-nolynch, nothing else, and I'm sure hoping we all are anti-nolynch. I can arrange it so that I "swap" votes with someone, as in vote against my reads if someone who wants to vote for that person promises to unvote (same number of votes but I get my benefit of being on the wagon) if so desired.

PPE 4 posts

[Axxle]

I'm going to have to reread Joth. It feels like he's just latching on to other people's arguments and not coming up with ones himself.

Don't bother. You're 100% right that this is what I'm doing.

But, like, somebody has to. When the only acceptable town play is for everyone to come up with their own 100% unique case, you get a vote count that looks like the one we have. If we ACTUALLY want a lynch, some people have to sheep. Critical thinking is still involved, to decide which reads to sheep and which not to.

You realize that you can come up with 1% your own case, right? It's not just 100% or 0%...

I'll hold off voting for you till I reread tonight.

[Eevee]

I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).

Your last act as town was helping lynch sparky, who I had no clue was scum.

I was mostly sheeping Grujah because I had no clue of what was happening (sparky's scumminess was literally my ONLY read and it was mostly gut-based and my gut has lost games for town in this very forum).
I probably didn't make it clear how unsure of everything I was in that game, so your misguided trust actually makes some sense.

[Glooble]

I think the proper way to deal with the whole 2nd/3rd tier votes is that if there aren't obviously 2 wagons or so after everyone votes that we take an imaginary votecount where everyone's 2nd votes count too and figure out if we have wagons. If we do, then those are the wagons and everyone shifts around like that. It's kinda like Instant Runoff Voting which is great in huge groups like this.

I second this motion.

I don't think joth's "scumslip" was a scumslip, but making an argument against eHalcyon without looking to see if the thing he accused him of actually happened actually reads town to me. Scum tend to be very cautious when they misrepresent people, I doubt scum-joth would have made that kind of a blatant mistake.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 1.22

shraeye (2) -- ftl, Captain_Frisk
Glooble (1) -- yuma
Grujah (2) -- Glooble, ehunt
Voltaire (1) -- Insomniac
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Watno
Young Nick (1) -- cayvie
Axxle (2) -- Young Nick, Eevee
jotheonah (1) -- Voltaire
eHalcyon (2) -- Galzria, TheMunch
Insomniac (1) -- ashersky
Galzria (1) -- Dsell
ftl (1) -- ibgtennis
Morgrim7 (4) -- shraeye, Axxle, Morgrim7
Eevee (1) -- Cuzz

Not Voting (5) -- Grujah, O, eHalcyon, sparky5856, jotheonah

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)

[Glooble]

Also, fully aware that I'm voting for a voting plan that makes my own lynch way more likely. Still think its the way to go.

[Axxle]

Oh, and I've been wondering if I should say this or not since cayvie's post but no I will. My role has a thing about being on wagons too (and the reason cayvie's reads towny to me is that I know I'm town and I too have one). Mine is that it's very good to me to be a part of scum lynch wagon, so expect to see me participate in the lynch even if it's on a town read of mine, especially if it seems to be happening anyways.

Well I missed this. Makes me feel better about cayvie's announcement, I was silently wondering whether she was just brazenly lying or not.

Danger mod-speculation ahead:
Do you guys think Robz would have made this restriction symmetric? Giving one to scum and one to town?  I know I would.

[Axxle]

Getting light town read from Eevee and light scum read from cayvie btw.

[Eevee]

They both encourage towny behavior at least (not voting for townies / voting for scum). If scum has any, I expect it to be like this too (in which case they obviously are not going to tell us).

So, no, I think I cayvie is town.

[shraeye]

I dont do well in huge towns day1. Mafia VI, lynched as a townie (although mostly mafia-driven), major arcana, flailing around with SO MUCH less clue than I have here (which is why I found Axxle saying he trusts my gut after that game super weird).
How is me having a town read on Morg scummy, Cuzz? Because you are scum with him and know I'm wrong? I almost never OMGUS, but man am I tempted to do it here.

@shraeye
It's possible I'm wrong about morgrim. Why is my read scummy though? Are you thinking we must be a scum pair?

Naw, I don't go so far as to say you're scummy.  I had you at a 20% pro-lynch.  That's less scummy than some people.  Interesting reaction to me saying Cuzz's case seemed decent, though.  Your Morgrim-read is off, but that doesn't make you scummy by itself.

I was happy to see shraeye also vote for jotheonah but disappointed it was for silly reasons.

The "scumslip" still feels fishy for me, but I'm cutting it a little slack due to cayvie's explanation.  Another part of my joth case is his really powerful reaction to the two times that a single vote landed on him.  I assume those are parts of your case.  Could you clarify your case to me, as I still have joth at 60% prolynch? thanks!

[shraeye]

Danger mod-speculation ahead:
Do you guys think Robz would have made this restriction symmetric? Giving one to scum and one to town?  I know I would.

I've had this speculation as well.  Also, Eevee

They both encourage towny behavior at least (not voting for townies / voting for scum). If scum has any, I expect it to be like this too (in which case they obviously are not going to tell us).

So, no, I think I cayvie is town.

this post looks slightly edited.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire: Plays like I would expect scum Volt to. Slight scum read.

So did you think I was playing scummy in those games?

Re: the case on Galz - he made an eloquent defense and I'm not really sure what to think. That said, it makes Dsell's pressing pretty town to me. I don't think I had him in that column before. Well, he is for now.

50+ pages in and I have a pile of "maybe town," a giant pile of "nothing" and a small pile of "hmmm." This is not good.

[Voltaire]

I was happy to see shraeye also vote for jotheonah but disappointed it was for silly reasons.

The "scumslip" still feels fishy for me, but I'm cutting it a little slack due to cayvie's explanation.  Another part of my joth case is his really powerful reaction to the two times that a single vote landed on him.  I assume those are parts of your case.  Could you clarify your case to me, as I still have joth at 60% prolynch? thanks!

Yes, good, I was hoping someone else picked up on that. I didn't catch his squirming both times (others pointed it out) but I think I was the first to notice it was a pattern. That just seems really unnecessary on D1.

It's not a strong case because I've lost all of my strong reads (Captain_Frisk, for example). That said, I see the case aganist jotheonah as follows: squirming with one vote, self-admitted sheeping of others (though that's weird scum play, but your WIFOM may vary), and wracking up an impressive post count without having deep contributions (fully admit this is flimsy, as he pointed out the doublevote, tried to make others realize different playstyles are ok, etc.) That said, I really don't see a case for scum ehunt, and I don't like anyone approving of it. Sorting out misguided town from scum is the trick.

[Young Nick]

Hi just checking in. I'm going to address a few thoughts up to that point real quick.

• First and foremost, I am definitely not going to have time to read the first 40 pages of this game. I will use the shraeye index, but that is obviously not as good as reading.

• Second off, I see that some people have called me out for lurking. Some think I am complaining about a lack of a summary (though I have one now, so hurray) and about how little time I have. I don't have much time. That's the reality of it. I signed up for a newbie-friendly game. I don't think a game that posts 7 pages in one day is newbie-friendly. See it as scummy if you will, but that's life.

It's not like I'm a soon-to-be father, but I am starting college. While in high school and during summer, my schedule is completely different. I have to go make new friends now. That takes time and effort. Time and effort that has to come from somewhere, aka Mafia.

I'm still staying in, though. I am doing my check-ins, trying to get caught up and getting into a routine where I can spend time on Mafia everyday. That schedule isn't set yet, but will hopefully be soon.

• Lastly, I do have a few reads. Mainly, I do think eHalc's "directing the cop" was a bit weird, even if he prefaced it. I understand that he supports investigating Morgrim in all games, but man, I would rather have my PR's keep their options more open. I do think he has said some fishy stuff, all of which he has been called out on. I do find that most reads I get are expressed by someone else hours before I even am at a computer. Like this whole vote-for-information type thing. It clearly is hedging. Hopefully today I can get caught up, and thus post up-to-date reads.

[Young Nick]

So yeah, call me out on "actilurking," but that's not what's going on.

I am quite aware of the soft deadline fast approaching and will get my vote in by then.

[yuma]

Alright I am going to look at the people with votes on them: from highest to lowest (at least as I am typing this up)


Morgrim7 (4) - Morgrim is an enigma. Because his behavior is very, very consistent. The only time he deviated away from his stereotypical behavior (at least in the games I have been in) was when he was Vigilante in MIX. The interesting thing about his behavior is that it is actually fairly easy to replicate as mafia. (Low post count, sheeping reads, voting w/o explanation) but it is a little risky because it makes people want to lynch him. But Morgrim does have a decent survival rate lately (he survived all game in MVI and was the last player killed in MIX), so perhaps that risk is lessened of late.

Axxle (2) - I still think that at some point we need to discuss the implications of a scum aligned double voting Axxle could have on town. But I don't think that Axxle should be lynched today, especially as he will be able to help us reach a lynch with that double vote, that and he is one of the few people that I have a town read on.

shraeye (2) - Town read on shraeye. Partly because the two people voting him I have moderately scum reads on. The thing about shraeye is that he is willing and ready to pick and stick with fights and arguments. He has argued with Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, Insomniac, yuma, O, Glooble, Watno, Cuzz, cayvie, ftl, eevee and I am sure more that I missed He is constantly sticking his neck out. If he is scum, he will slip (some suggested that he already has) eventually if he continues to post this much, and if he is town I expect him to continue this behavior into subsequent days. A failure for him to do so, will read scum.

eHalcyon (2) - I've had a town read on eHal, but the longer he goes w/o voting for someone, the more that town read goes away. Note: someone said that he hadn't voted all game? He did vote for jot at one point at about midgame.

Grujah (2) - is he V/LA? He hasn't posted since September 22, 11 pm forum time. Can we get a prod for Grujah? But in the time that he has been on, he has posted nothing. I believe he has posted the least amount of substance out of any other player

Voltaire (1) - more of a scum read here: his posts remind me of ashersky, but less aggressive and argumentative. He seems to be trying to question everyone, but do so nicely w/o bringing any suspicion on himself.

Captain_Frisk (1)  - either he is scum w/ little content, which is suspicious; or he is town w/ little content, which is too bad because he generally has really good analysis and understanding of the game, but I understand he has RL commitments. So he is a scum read, but it could be a RL scum read.

Young Nick (1) - scummy read; he has had time to read and catch up and provide analysis.

jotheonah (1) - jot's playstyle includes a lot of short, slightly sarcastic posts... that is just how he is. That said, he does seem guilty of opportunistic voting and sheeping; he consistently votes for ehunt--then votes somewhere else for a bit--and then comes back to ehunt (interesting that ehunt currently has no votes on him, for I think the first time since vote count 1.4.) so I have a scummy read on jot.

Insomniac (1) - Insomniac tends to get night killed if town, so if he survives night 1 he is scum right? /joke... No, I have a town read on Insomniac.

Galzria (1) - Town read for Galz. I am in agreement with him in regard to his lurker stance.

ftl (1) - ftl looks to me like a perfect example of scum trying at the beginning of the game to be active and fully participate, but as the game wore on, it became more and more difficult to keep up and not make a mistake, so instead of posting more and potentially making a mistake, he slowly sinks into the background.

Eevee (1) - Eevee.... hmm.... I always get a pretty good town read on Eevee--except that one time that I shot him--and he always ends up being town. I still have a town read on him.

Glooble (1) - the guy I am currently voting for. I still find him scummy and surprised that other people aren't. Although I guess he is on a couple of people's secondary votes. But I don't put any stock in secondary votes. The first one is the one that counts.

I will change my vote to someone with 2 votes on them to see if we can start getting a consensus, but everyone that has 2 votes I have a town read on except Grujah vote: grujah