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Author Topic: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- GAME OVER, TOWN WINS  (Read 318829 times)

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Robz888

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I intend to start having far more content tomorrow, but what the hell is going on with O, and igbtennis, O has only his in post, and igbtennis deleted his in post and his pre twin claim...

ROBZ PLEASE PROD IGBTENNIS, OR CONFIRM HE IS (NOT) IN THIS GAME

We keep spelling his name wrong; the 'b' comes before the 'g'. He did not, in fact, delete his introductory "in" post. I asked him and Munch, the true newbs, to confirm their participation a week ago, and then I asked them to do so again after role PMs. He confirmed both times. It IS the weekend, perhaps he's just busy.

However, I will send prods to both ibgtennis and O tomorrow if they have not yet posted. So far, I'm not displeased with the level of involvement. It was an odd time to begin the game.
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I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Robz888

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Re: Mafia XI: Find Yourself in the Courtyard Masquerade -- GAME START, DAY 1
« Reply #351 on: September 16, 2012, 10:31:04 pm »

Vote Count 1.5

igbtennis (2) -- ftl, Insomniac
shraeye (6) -- Cayvie, Eevee, Glooble, Axxle, ashersky
ehunt (2) -- Jotheonah, TheMunch
Voltgloss (1) -- shraeye
O (1) -- yuma

Not Voting (14) -- Voltgloss, Grujah, Young Nick, Voltaire, O, Cuzz, igbtennis, Morgrim7, eHalcyon, Watno, Captain_Frisk, Galzria, Dsell, ehunt

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)
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I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

Glooble

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I still suspect shraeye more than anyone else (not that I suspect anyone all that much) but I didn't find the comment people keep quoting especially scummy. It was clearly tongue-in-cheek.

This kind of reminds me of jo in Mafia VI, where he claimed scum as a joke early on and it got him suspected for the rest of the game. The difference is jo had a clearly established meta of being a silly guy, which kept him from getting lynched, whereas shraeye doesn't yet have a well-established reputation for sarcasm.

But no one looks scummier right now.
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I think town!Glooble pointing to something as a scum tell and then shortly thereafter doing that thing is a lot more likely than scum!Glooble doing that.

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shraeye

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Post counts subtracting one for the "in"

[insert numbers here]
I don't like that this post count counts posts that were entered before the game actually started. I don't count anything before #195.  I also don't always count back-to-back posts as seperate posts depending on the content.  But I definitely am waiting to hear more from a few players.  Some V/LA (cuzz, frisk, voltgloss, voltaire, YouNgick) and some just plain mysterious (O and ibgtennis)
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jotheonah

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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.

(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")
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yuma

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Post counts subtracting one for the "in"

[insert numbers here]
I don't like that this post count counts posts that were entered before the game actually started. I don't count anything before #195.  I also don't always count back-to-back posts as seperate posts depending on the content.  But I definitely am waiting to hear more from a few players.  Some V/LA (cuzz, frisk, voltgloss, voltaire, YouNgick) and some just plain mysterious (O and ibgtennis)

man, if you don't like it, post one yourself. it takes a fair amount of work to put together a post count that gets rid of all posts that were before the game started; too much, especially when one that just tallies total posts is so easy.

I think everyone understands that the post counts include pre-game talk and interpret it as such.
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shraeye

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It happens that I do keep those notes around.

21:cayvie   20:jotheonah   10:galzria   9:dsell   
8:ehalcyon, shraeye, yuma   7:axxle, ftl   6:ashersky, eevee, insomniac   
5:Morgrim   4:grujah, theMunch, watno   3:ehunt, glooble   
1:cuzz, frisk, voltgloss   0:ibgtennis, o, voltaire, youNgick
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jotheonah

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damn cayvie always beating me. I'll just have to post more.
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Eevee

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damn cayvie always beating me. I'll just have to post more.
ehunt won't be pleased.
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shraeye

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damn cayvie always beating me. I'll just have to post more.
ehunt won't be pleased.
:)  +1
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TheMunch

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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.

(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")

As a clarification, are secret voters and/or doublevoters always pro town?  You seem to be implying that thats the case and I just dont know better.
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eHalcyon

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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.

(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")

As a clarification, are secret voters and/or doublevoters always pro town?  You seem to be implying that thats the case and I just dont know better.

I think it's more likely pro-town but there are no guarantees.




Re-reading shraeye's post, it does look more on the facetious side.  Heh.
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Voltgloss

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A couple things from ehunt have me tilting my head quizzically.

For example, if I logically deduce "there cannot be a tracker" but mafia knows that there is a tracker, then mafia will realize that the tracker isn't me, and it will make their hunt for power-roles either.

ehunt, what makes you think scum would have that kind of information?  As far as we all know, this isn't Pick Your Poison-styled.  And if it were, only scum would know.

A couple posts yesterday seemed like straight-up rolefishing.

ehunt, why didn't you identify those rolefishing posts?  If you think someone is scum rolefishing for town power roles, shouldn't you voice your suspicions up-front so the town can weigh and discuss them?  I don't see how this veiled, vague reference is helpful to town.

Other things...

Everyone confused about "acti-lurking" should read this:  http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Active_Lurking.  The proper term appears to be "Active Lurking."

I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...

Scumslip?

"I can't believe I got caught" vs. "I can't believe people suspect me".

I mean, you can argue that you meant the latter, but then it's kind of ironic since you're talking about using language accurately...

Amusing scumslip.  Right up there with Captain_Frisk's 0% chance of flipping town.

...although what's most interesting to me is the way yuma and Dsell immediately tried to change the subject to O.  If in the future one of those three flip scum, we should carefully reevaluate the other two.

Query:  if the double/secret-voter were scum, would they reveal their voting ability this early in the game? 
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jotheonah

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Noteworthy: the secret vote has moved to shraeye.

(Cue the "OMG he made an obvious observation guys that only helps the scum team!1!!")

As a clarification, are secret voters and/or doublevoters always pro town?  You seem to be implying that thats the case and I just dont know better.

No, I think they're very possibly scum. But I see why you read it that way. The bit in quote marks is a mocking sarcastic version of what someone (ehunt, I think) said about how speculating about the double vote is bad. It reads better with additional punctuation, to wit:

Quote
OMG he made an obvious observation. Guys, that only helps the scum team!1!!

My point being that commenting on things everyone can see is, at worst, neutral and, at best, townish.
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cayvie

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Man, I just don't like the way shraeye tried to divert conversation to "is acti-lurking a word?"

That's an irrelevant issue. I originally voted because of this, in response to ashersky's comment that he was "not acti-lurking":

Good, I was really worried you were "acti-lurking."  Oh wait, no I wasn't, because that isn't a word.  In more serious news, "talk of cards" never actually started; ehunt said "it's not a good thing to broadcast, don't do it."  End of discussion.  I suppose if I take "stopped very quickly" to mean instantly, you are right.  Otherwise, you do not know what it means to start talking about things.

It's a level of snark that seems out of place in response to a nothing post. It's also a level of snark that I don't recall shraeye exhibiting in IX as town.

I do want to point out, though, that, taken in the context of the previous sentence, shraeye's scumslip (yes, the one I pointed out earlier) really isn't one.

Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means.  If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me.  I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined.  When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name.  Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell.  I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...

He's pretty clearly being sarcastic here, and using the words he means to.

Mostly, though, I don't see why he's so upset over the whole "acti-lurking" thing. It feels phony. Surely if you don't know what a word means, you can just ask.
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18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

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ftl

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I'd like ehunt's idea of having just one post per day, just make sure it's good, but I suspect that's sort of hard to keep up/enforce. If you have more things to say, are you going to wait to say them until the next day, if you've already made your post? I think people should prefer to consolidate what they say into a smaller number of more content-full posts, but I don't think people should "restrict" themselves to one post or anything like that. Just try to get in one good post if you haven't done anything else. I'm doing one post today just because I haven't been around all day, but I don't see this being practical as a pattern.

My new guess about the secret vote: secret voter is either newbie or town (or both). Since it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, any experienced mafia player would know better than to immediately reveal it, and would use it to secretly hammer when the time came. A newbie mafia could still get overeager with it  and use it immediately (FoS: igbtennis, munch, and I guess also watno and cuzz, I only remember them in joth's BM, and I could see morgrim doing that even though he's not a newbie); or, it's an experienced townie making sure the town knows he's around so they can plan accordingly. Still keeping my eye on the newbies though.

OK, detailed answer to TheMunch's post:

So maybe I am just incredibly naive but I just dont understand the RVS as a concept.  If the goal during the day is for town people to make good decisions and scum to make "bad" ones then having a RVS stage should, in my mind, only be backed by two kinds of people: lazy town and overeager scum.  Both of these kinds of players are ones I wouldn't want to see around.

Well, the point of RVS is to get something started. Like, if you don't have RVS, you have... what? Town sitting around and saying "nobody's suspicious, so I'm not voting for anybody" all day. So you throw some votes around. Make people talk, so maybe you'll catch scum in a lie. Make people vote, so that afterwards, you can catch scum based on who voted for who.

It doesn't have to be RVS. Depending on the game, it could be talk about meta like someone else started here, or talk about theory, or talk about the setup. Anything to make people *commit* to positions and *say* things that they'll be held to later. And random votes work fine for that. You'll rarely catch scum with them, but they'll at least set up future days.

I agree with Cayvie here.  For the people that are giving meta information, I could care less how players played in previous games.  Anyone can change their playstyle at any minute and does not come with any value.

That probably depends on the player. No matter how much I tried, I don't think I could run the town like Galz sometimes does. I tried deliberately playing like Robz (one vote per day!) at one point and couldn't keep it up. And, well, I'm sure people have some patterns to how they play mafia or town that they don't even notice and so can't correct.

there's no such thing as useless content.

I guess we'll see. That's been true so far in all of the games here (That I've been in), we haven't gotten lost in too many posts. There's always a first, but I don't want to discourage people from posting "just in case" it becomes too much to handle.

My vote stays on ibgtennis until he posts something of value. It's the weekend so I don't really blame him for not being around, the game started at an awkward time, but I don't want to *start* the game by giving people free passes and excuses. Also FoSing O for the reasons pointed out by someone else before. He should know better. Lurking/no content is scummier than shraeye's snark.
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cayvie

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I'd like ehunt's idea of having just one post per day, just make sure it's good, but I suspect that's sort of hard to keep up/enforce. If you have more things to say, are you going to wait to say them until the next day, if you've already made your post? I think people should prefer to consolidate what they say into a smaller number of more content-full posts, but I don't think people should "restrict" themselves to one post or anything like that. Just try to get in one good post if you haven't done anything else. I'm doing one post today just because I haven't been around all day, but I don't see this being practical as a pattern.

I like the fluff. I like the ebb and flow of conversation. I try to get reads off of tone and how people interact with each other, see who feels comfortable and who's edgy. I kinda think that any sort of post restriction, whether mod-instated or community-influenced, messes with the natural flow of things and makes what people say sound forced. And that makes it harder to read people.

Quote
My vote stays on ibgtennis until he posts something of value. It's the weekend so I don't really blame him for not being around, the game started at an awkward time, but I don't want to *start* the game by giving people free passes and excuses. Also FoSing O for the reasons pointed out by someone else before. He should know better. Lurking/no content is scummier than shraeye's snark.

I can 100% get behind a Day 1 lurker lynch in a town this big.
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18:28 MEASURE YOUR LIFE IN LOVE: you shouldve done the decent thing and resign rather than go on being that lucky all the time

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Morgrim7

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Wow, two scumslips in a row by shyaeye and he doesn't even respond. I think you uh... just got caught. Vote: shraeye.
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TheMunch

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Well, the point of RVS is to get something started. Like, if you don't have RVS, you have... what? Town sitting around and saying "nobody's suspicious, so I'm not voting for anybody" all day. So you throw some votes around. Make people talk, so maybe you'll catch scum in a lie. Make people vote, so that afterwards, you can catch scum based on who voted for who.

It doesn't have to be RVS. Depending on the game, it could be talk about meta like someone else started here, or talk about theory, or talk about the setup. Anything to make people *commit* to positions and *say* things that they'll be held to later. And random votes work fine for that. You'll rarely catch scum with them, but they'll at least set up future days.

The point I was trying to make was that there are other ways to get the game going, namely all the meta posts about previous players.  I'm not trying to claim that I am an expert at this game but clearly alternatives do exist.  People that have responded to me in favor of RVS have had no other argument other than "well, what else are you going to do".  Which is fine, thats exactly the kind of defeatist attitude I would expect from proponents of the RVS.  I mean, heck, even Shraeye's "scumslip" (come on guys... that post doesnt immidiately make him scum or not scum, just obnoxiously sarcastic) started more conversation than any random voting ever did.  The closest second would be those voting to get rid of inactive players which I also support (Cayvie, post #366).


My new guess about the secret vote: secret voter is either newbie or town (or both). Since it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, any experienced mafia player would know better than to immediately reveal it, and would use it to secretly hammer when the time came. A newbie mafia could still get overeager with it  and use it immediately (FoS: igbtennis, munch, and I guess also watno and cuzz, I only remember them in joth's BM, and I could see morgrim doing that even though he's not a newbie); or, it's an experienced townie making sure the town knows he's around so they can plan accordingly. Still keeping my eye on the newbies though.

I dont like this line of reasoning; not because I'm one of the new players, but because I think its fallacious.  (Also if that is your reasoning, your only suspicion should be pointed against me since igbtennis is currently a nonparticipant? but thats irrelevenet)  So you're saying prior to game start we know their could be a secret voter but not necessarily that there is one and revealing the role's existance is a "noob mistake."  I dont think its a secret voter but a doublevoter (the hidden vote has always moved with one individual, not conclusive with the number of vote counts but enough to watch for).  If its a doublevoter, they cant really keep that a secret (other than wait till the end and hammer, you are right).  That being said, a very active secret voter could make it appear like someone is a double voter for whatever reason.  Basically what I'm saying is, we cant know if its a secret voter or a double voter, the existance of a secret voter could make a double voter look in attendence, and if there is a secret voter, thats something not obvious to track.  So if its a secret voter, then its not necessarily noob to do something deceptive, and we cant know whether or not its a secret voter or a double voter.  Take that as you will.
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shraeye

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Cool, lots to say.

point number A
My new guess about the secret vote: secret voter is either newbie or town (or both). Since it's a secret voter and not a doublevoter, any experienced mafia player would know better than to immediately reveal it, and would use it to secretly hammer when the time came. A newbie mafia could still get overeager with it  and use it immediately (FoS: igbtennis, munch, and I guess also watno and cuzz, I only remember them in joth's BM, and I could see morgrim doing that even though he's not a newbie); or, it's an experienced townie making sure the town knows he's around so they can plan accordingly. Still keeping my eye on the newbies though.
I dont like this line of reasoning; not because I'm one of the new players, but because I think its fallacious.  (Also if that is your reasoning, your only suspicion should be pointed against me since igbtennis is currently a nonparticipant? but thats irrelevenet)  So you're saying prior to game start we know their could be a secret voter but not necessarily that there is one and revealing the role's existance is a "noob mistake."  I dont think its a secret voter but a doublevoter (the hidden vote has always moved with one individual, not conclusive with the number of vote counts but enough to watch for).  If its a doublevoter, they cant really keep that a secret (other than wait till the end and hammer, you are right).  That being said, a very active secret voter could make it appear like someone is a double voter for whatever reason.  Basically what I'm saying is, we cant know if its a secret voter or a double voter, the existance of a secret voter could make a double voter look in attendence, and if there is a secret voter, thats something not obvious to track.  So if its a secret voter, then its not necessarily noob to do something deceptive, and we cant know whether or not its a secret voter or a double voter.  Take that as you will.
So TheMunch notes that the vote has always followed one player around, and let me make that explicit.  The vote has followed Axxle.  Does anyone remember these relevant posts from pre-game? Read post #173 and #174.

point number B
Wow, two scumslips in a row by shyaeye and he doesn't even respond. I think you uh... just got caught. Vote: shraeye.
Morgrim, you keep using that word scumslip.  I do not think it means what you think it means.  No, that was a lie that I used just because it's fun to try to quote the Princess Bride.  You clearly think that it is an actual scumslip, which is hilarious becase I intentionally said both of those things (as cayvie points out somewhat).  So it wasn't a slip.  I haven't responded because I'm waiting for other people to realize that sarcasm exists.  Apparently I need to spell things out for y'all, which ruins the humor.  The reason I responded to your post about "shraye, actilurking certainly is a thing. Possible scumslip?" is because it was the most ridiculous of the responses my actilurking post got.  So I had to respond ridiculously.  My hatred of acronyms is something I think I've posted about at some point in my f.DS history.  Maybe that was during signups for Mafia IX or maybe during Diplomacy.  I didn't know what V/LA meant until I started getting into forum games here (my confusion there is probably documentedin the V/LA thread).  Well that hatred extends to blends and portmanteaus.  They're dumb.  Actual words exist to describe things, so inventing new ones tends to aggrevate me.  Hey, some of them are good, and I even adopt some of them; usually these are ones that describe a concept better then the normal words do.  Like smog, or brunch.  A great non-example would be saying delish, instead of delicious.  Or saying acti-lurking instead of actively lurking.

But there are more of them that I don't like.  So I post to say acti-lurking sounds like a silly word.  And I immediately get responses back saying "no, acti-lurking is a real thing."  Well I bet it is, which is why I never said it wasn't a concept.  I just said that acti-lurking is not a word.  Axxle sums this up nicely when he posts a string of letters and sarcastically says that anyone who doesn't know what he means is scum.  I just did it with about 30 times the snark.

So now it's been called Active Lurking and I have a mafiascum.net description of it.  Funny thing is, that description is not what ashersky was doing.  Actively Lurking means to post irrelevant posts often essentially being lurking with your ideas while still technically being post-count present.  I'm pretty sure that doesn't describe what ashersky was doing, or worried that he was looking like he was doing.

point number B and a half
It's a level of snark that seems out of place in response to a nothing post. It's also a level of snark that I don't recall shraeye exhibiting in IX as town.

I do want to point out, though, that, taken in the context of the previous sentence, shraeye's scumslip (yes, the one I pointed out earlier) really isn't one.

Ashersky gets the closest to my point, but still I have no clue what exactly acti-lurking means.  If anybody can show me a legitimate dictionary with the word actilurking in it, I will not only eat my hat, but I will eat any hat that somebody mails to me.  I have no idea what you mean by actilurking, and will need that to be defined.  When it is properly defined, I will begin to call it by a more reasonable name.  Interesting side note: "acti-lurking" has no results in Google, and "actilurking" has exactly 1. Also, Morgrim is correct, me not liking the dumb phrase "acti-lurking" is a scumtell.  I can't believe I got caught just because I like the English language used with a modicum of accuracy...

He's pretty clearly being sarcastic here, and using the words he means to.

Mostly, though, I don't see why he's so upset over the whole "acti-lurking" thing. It feels phony. Surely if you don't know what a word means, you can just ask.
I'm glad a few people could pick up on sarcasm (there are others; y'all can check if you like, this post is already too long).  As for how much I'm making, cayvie is correct.  More than I did as town in Mafia IX.  So now you can all start making a big firetruckin' deal out of that.  And yes, the surprising amount of anger over the word usage of ashersky was overly nitpicking and slightly phony.  It's called hyperbole, and it's a classic literary device, here used to create the effect of humor.  Well, I laughed.  And I'm still laughing.
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Voltgloss

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So TheMunch notes that the vote has always followed one player around, and let me make that explicit.  The vote has followed Axxle.  Does anyone remember these relevant posts from pre-game? Read post #173 and #174.

shraeye, do you think apparent double-voting ability means Axxle is more likely to be (1) town, or (2) scum?
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shraeye

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Good question.  I think that a double-voter could definitely be either a scum or town role.  As I recall Robz said that his "personality" for us wouldn't affect the chances of drawing scum.  Couple that with my thought that Axxle's double-vote was always in the setup and I think it has no affect on his alignment. 

But how he is using his vote (assuming that he knows that he's double-voter) could say some things, but even from this I get nothing but null reads.  The argument that Axxle could use his scum double-vote as a surprise hammer could be made, but that's flawed logic I'm sure.  A move like that would surprise us, but would feel verrry scummy to everyone.  If a vigilante exists, I'm not sure Axxle would survive the night.

So a succinct answer is that I think that if Axxle is a double voter (I'm only 95% certain) makes Axxle an important character (one I will try really hard to read), but doesn't sway him towards scum or town.
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shraeye

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Good question.  I think that a double-voter could definitely be either a scum or town role.  As I recall Robz said that his "personality" for us wouldn't affect the chances of drawing scum.  Couple that with my thought that Axxle's double-vote was always in the setup and I think it has no affect on his alignment. 

But how he is using his vote (assuming that he knows that he's double-voter) could say some things, but even from this I get nothing but null reads.  The argument that Axxle could use his scum double-vote as a surprise hammer could be made, but that's flawed logic I'm sure.  A move like that would surprise us, but would feel verrry scummy to everyone.  If a vigilante exists, I'm not sure Axxle would survive the night.

So a succinct answer is that I think that if Axxle is a double voter (I'm only 95% certain) makes Axxle an important character (one I will try really hard to read), but doesn't sway him towards scum or town.
Excuse me, I meant "the argument that scum Axxle should/would use his double-vote as a surprise hammer could be made, but that's flawed logic"
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Watno

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vote shraeye
I guess this is a good example of acti-lurking. We shouldn't discuss about what words to use, but find scum. If you didn't get what ashersky wanted to say, why not just ask?
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Voltaire

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Guys. Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuys. Oww. I get back from vacation, take care of ZM2 and BMV, and I have about 13 pages to read. /sigh

Though I am very glad RVS appears to be ending, but my head is hurting trying to track these issues. I still want O to post. Also anyone else who hasn't posted yet. Though I know O is doing it intentionally.

Heck, vote: O since it's still RVS for me (I said it, it's true!) until I can go back and read more carefully.
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