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[Galzria]

@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought.  As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.

@dsell -- much better way of making your point than Galz-bold-look how stupid anyone who doesn't get it is style.  I disagree though, as seeking X scum out of a large pool (off wagon) is harder odds-wise than seeking X mafia out of a small pool (wagon).

@themunch -- way to make yourself look even worse by saying "thanks for seeming worse than I've already established and taking heat off me" and kurplunking a vote with it.

@Joth response: Under this pretense, I wouldn't have known Grujah was scum either, which is exactly what you claimed I knew when you voted for me. Rather inconsistent of you. I have no issues with someone voting for me - it's your right to do so - but please make logical consistent arguments if you do so. One thing I can't stand is faulty, inconsistent arguments.

@Dsell response: I get the feeling you didn't actually read everything and just picked out a response I made to a quote of TheMunch's. See, if you actually read, you'll realize that TheMunch's quote was made D2, not D1. His claim was that Joth made a statement ("That we should focus off the wagon") with no evidence to support his claim. Seems to me it was pretty clear that there was, in fact, the strongest evidence we'd had to do anything all game. It was evidence made available to everyone. But TheMunch seemed unclear it existed. I was making sure he got it.

@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.

In general: I'm rather unclear how you can claim that "off the wagon" is a larger subset than "on the wagon", considering it took half +1 of the votes to lynch - thus by the very nature of this game, "on the wagon" is larger. And that is not even taking into consideration the simple fact that MAFIA were much more likely to be off the wagon of their PR than on - and other scum could easily be in either place.

I've never once cleared the wagon, but I've said (and stand by) the fact that Grujah's mafia PR flip makes off the wagon the hands down best place to start looking.

[TheMunch]

@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.

Wasn't asking for it.  But I am still asking for a response as to whether the more recent clarification posts that contradict some of the points you made about me having any baring on your opinion of me.

[TheMunch]

That sentence was rancid.  I'm just curious whether you've taken into account my recent posts, which I feel contradict some of the points you made in your argument against me.

[ashersky]

@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought.  As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.

@dsell -- much better way of making your point than Galz-bold-look how stupid anyone who doesn't get it is style.  I disagree though, as seeking X scum out of a large pool (off wagon) is harder odds-wise than seeking X mafia out of a small pool (wagon).

@themunch -- way to make yourself look even worse by saying "thanks for seeming worse than I've already established and taking heat off me" and kurplunking a vote with it.

@Joth response: Under this pretense, I wouldn't have known Grujah was scum either, which is exactly what you claimed I knew when you voted for me. Rather inconsistent of you. I have no issues with someone voting for me - it's your right to do so - but please make logical consistent arguments if you do so. One thing I can't stand is faulty, inconsistent arguments.

@Dsell response: I get the feeling you didn't actually read everything and just picked out a response I made to a quote of TheMunch's. See, if you actually read, you'll realize that TheMunch's quote was made D2, not D1. His claim was that Joth made a statement ("That we should focus off the wagon") with no evidence to support his claim. Seems to me it was pretty clear that there was, in fact, the strongest evidence we'd had to do anything all game. It was evidence made available to everyone. But TheMunch seemed unclear it existed. I was making sure he got it.

@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.

In general: I'm rather unclear how you can claim that "off the wagon" is a larger subset than "on the wagon", considering it took half +1 of the votes to lynch - thus by the very nature of this game, "on the wagon" is larger. And that is not even taking into consideration the simple fact that MAFIA were much more likely to be off the wagon of their PR than on - and other scum could easily be in either place.

I've never once cleared the wagon, but I've said (and stand by) the fact that Grujah's mafia PR flip makes off the wagon the hands down best place to start looking.

Are you willfully ignoring the fact that there were only 12 on the wagon, not 13?  That is not half +1, unless I my math is worse than I thought.  Seems you are trying to break my argument with misinformation.

So, 12 minus two NKed equals 10 wagoners alive.  11 off wagon.  One of those numbers is greater than the other.

[jotheonah]

@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought.  As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.

[Galzria]

@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought.  As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.

@dsell -- much better way of making your point than Galz-bold-look how stupid anyone who doesn't get it is style.  I disagree though, as seeking X scum out of a large pool (off wagon) is harder odds-wise than seeking X mafia out of a small pool (wagon).

@themunch -- way to make yourself look even worse by saying "thanks for seeming worse than I've already established and taking heat off me" and kurplunking a vote with it.

@Joth response: Under this pretense, I wouldn't have known Grujah was scum either, which is exactly what you claimed I knew when you voted for me. Rather inconsistent of you. I have no issues with someone voting for me - it's your right to do so - but please make logical consistent arguments if you do so. One thing I can't stand is faulty, inconsistent arguments.

@Dsell response: I get the feeling you didn't actually read everything and just picked out a response I made to a quote of TheMunch's. See, if you actually read, you'll realize that TheMunch's quote was made D2, not D1. His claim was that Joth made a statement ("That we should focus off the wagon") with no evidence to support his claim. Seems to me it was pretty clear that there was, in fact, the strongest evidence we'd had to do anything all game. It was evidence made available to everyone. But TheMunch seemed unclear it existed. I was making sure he got it.

@TheMunch response: Well, to each there own here. I'm not going to take his vote to defend me as a sign of him being town.

In general: I'm rather unclear how you can claim that "off the wagon" is a larger subset than "on the wagon", considering it took half +1 of the votes to lynch - thus by the very nature of this game, "on the wagon" is larger. And that is not even taking into consideration the simple fact that MAFIA were much more likely to be off the wagon of their PR than on - and other scum could easily be in either place.

I've never once cleared the wagon, but I've said (and stand by) the fact that Grujah's mafia PR flip makes off the wagon the hands down best place to start looking.

Are you willfully ignoring the fact that there were only 12 on the wagon, not 13?  That is not half +1, unless I my math is worse than I thought.  Seems you are trying to break my argument with misinformation.

So, 12 minus two NKed equals 10 wagoners alive.  11 off wagon.  One of those numbers is greater than the other.

Actually no, I wasn't taking the double-voter into consideration - however I absolutely think it's borderline terrible play to go "Hey, we lynched scum! I know, I'll focus on the people who made it happen! That'll be the best place to find scum, yeah!".

You also completely ignored my point that your original vote on me was for knowing Grujah was scum, but then claim to Joth that I could be any scum faction. Because all scum know who all other scum is - right?

[Galzria]

After-post edit:

I also think characterizing one subset (11) as being a large pool, and the other (10) to be a small pool extremely misleading. If you honestly think there's a huge difference there, and that given the nature of events that it makes more sense (ie. Higher odds, as you imply) to search for scum ON a scum lynch simply because the subset is 1 person smaller, I really can't even argue with you, because you're applying bad logic, plain and simple.

[ashersky]

@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought.  As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.

Being scummy does not mean they are mafia, is what I meant, and a point I have seen made often on f.ds.  My last sentence means I do not think people will lynch Galz because I voted for him for being scummy, so if he is town we won't mislynch.  Me however, I am town, but folks seem to be ok with mislynching me for very little.

[yuma]

so I am going to break this down as such into analysis of people (before performing a reread) that I consider highly likely to be scum, likely to be scum, potential scum, unlikely scum (at least in relation to Grujah). I will perform a heavy reread on highly likely, a light reread on likely and potential and no reread on unlikely.

Highly Likely to be scum: Dsell, Young Nick, TheMunch, jotheonah, Voltaire

Likely to be scum: Morgrim7, CaptainFrisk, ftl

Potential scum: sparky, theorel, Cuzz, ashersky, Watno

Unlikely to be scum: Galzria, ehunt, Cayvie, eHal, Axxle, shraeye

This isn't going to be indepth, because multiple people have already done that and frankly we need to get today moving... times like these I wish Voltgloss was still in the game, he could sure get the town rolling FOS: sparky for not adequately filling voltgloss's shoes (no, not really... you are doing fine).

Dsell - Galz's analysis of him was well done. I found the most compelling argument against him was in regard to him listing Grujah as a potential lynch candidate (3rd) but then never voting on him and even saying that he no longer had a scum read on Grujah when Grujah had done very little to warrant such a change in opinion. It looked like an attempt to cast a very small amount of suspicion at a scumbuddy so later in the game he could say, "well I was pretty suspicious of him." Along those lines, the redirect to Morgrim and his "warming up to Grujah." Like Galz notes, it is worth something that Dsell came out of the gates and admitted to trying to derail the Grujah wagon, but then again, that seems like a perfect scum strategy.

Young Nick - again, this time shraeye, has already performed an analysis. I do not blame him at all for not rereading and don't find it scummy. To go back and do a complete reread would have rendered him useless as town for still more days and left him unable to participate for even longer. Both shraeye and I have noted that Young Nick's questioning of me as the Grujah wagon began to take off was just plain odd. Young Nick states that if we should lynch someone it should be someone who is lurkier than Grujah. And he provides ibgtennis and himself as potential candidates. For me this argument is absolute bunk. Grujah lurked hard! And while I wasn't out to lynch a "lurker" it is exactly what he was doing. I imagine that if I had voted Young Nick for lurking he would have responded "why are you voting for me? There are other lurkers just as lurky as me? Why not Grujah or ibgtennis?" Add in his conflicting opinion about TheMunch and you have a pretty compelling case.

TheMunch - Yeah, again this has already been done for me by Galz. As he notes, TheMunch is very liberal with his vote. It seems he uses it in the same way that others use a FOS. That isn't my play style, but I don't really mind it. The buddying with shraeye isn't a huge deal for me (see me as town defending and having eerily similar reads as Frisk who was scum in MVIII). His vote on me was interesting, and could go either way, but annoyed me as he kept putting words into my mouth (well... keyboard) and misinterpreting my posts. That wasn't cool. His defense of Grujah is scummy, more so than Dsell in my opinion, but even worse was his complete questioning of the motives of the Grujah wagon--while it is very possible for scum to be on it--his analysis was that every single vote was bad and provided no information. TheMunch is really into getting "information" but doesn't seem to be too interested in lynching scum.

jotheonah - I mentioned before that if anyone on the wagon is scum I would put jot at the top of the list. I don't think anyone has done an analysis on him, so while I won't go a Galz style one, I will take a good look at him. Early day 1 he had his votes in a couple of places and argued heavily with ehunt and galz, and posted quite a bit, but wasn't ever in the forefront (jot has a tendency in Mafia to have a lot of short posts, that is just his style, not necessarily a reflection of his alignment). He lists his top 3 as (ehunt, Watno and eHal) changing his vote from ehunt to eHal over his copping-Morgrim thing, and then goes back to Galz and then unvotes... all three of these w/o any stated reason. Jot isn't around, or isn't posting when the Grujah wagon takes off. At 7 votes he continues his argument with eHal and then votes Morgrim--competely ignoring the case on Grujah except to say, "Vote: Morgrim he IS acting a bit odd, and I don't think he's scum, but I think he's more likely scum than Grujah at this point." because he is: "participating more than usual, but with just as little content." The wagon then grows to 9 and jot says, "he part of me that wants the longest day ever to be over with is fighting with the part of me that thinks Grujah is town and therefore a bad lynch." and then "I don't personally agree with the Grujah wagon, but I don't think it's scummy. Which IS gonna make tomorrow tougher, but c'est la vie. Unless I'm wrong and Grujah IS scum, in which case tomorrow will be awesome." He then states that his top candidates are still ehunt, watno, and ehal and doesn't really think morgrim is scum, but is ok with it because "the worst case scenario is we get rid of Morgrim. Who is not exactly a huge asset." He then votes Grujah after Galz's case and puts him at L-2 and calls him buddy? Day 2: he has his "probably wasn't a whole lot of bussing in that lynch" which got a lot of heat, but potentially not enough...

Voltaire - I'll just say this right now. Is it possible that Voltaire saw that his scum mate was lynched and decided, "well this game is over and stopped caring?" I dont' know Voltaire personally and haven't played with him too much, but I think that it is plausible. Kind of like a ragequit in isotropic? I hope that if Voltaire reads this he doesn't take it personally, but it is odd to completely disappear from the game for so long. Either some emergency came up (which is understandable) or a scum voltaire just gave up and stopped caring? But at this point I wont' vote for that, but I will look at voltaire a bit more. I guess now that I look at this, it is less likely as he wasn't around at all during the Grujah wagon, his last post being september 25, although he was on the forum October 1. It is notable that he is one person that was on my wagon (remember I know I am confirmed town), and the most scummy out of all of them for it. Toward the end of the game his top 3 was jot, watno and frisk, although he was still voting for Insomniac when he posted that. I am sure there is more to look at, but I haven't looked through all of it.

Morgrim7 - I always find him scummy, and I am not going to do a full reread, but I can summerize it from memory: Morgrim participates in RVS, he sheeps reads, votes w/o explanation, self votes and then joins the wagon that lynched Grujah. The end.

CaptainFrisk - Looking through day 2=no content. Basically he just suggests to look off wagon and analyze who didn't help lynch and WHY? But never actually looks off wagon himself. So let's look at why he didn't vote Grujah. Frisk was certainly online during the Grujah lynch. He voted for O (the only vote at the time) at L-4 because O hadn't voted for anyone yet so close to the deadline. Frisk says absolutely nothing about Grujah. Nil. Previous to his O vote he was voting shraeye for getting angry. Previous and prior to that he has a lot of helpful posts, vote count analysis, summaries for Young Nick, the electing a lyncher idea, helping with plurality,  but not much substance

ftl - my read on him was the same as the Day 1 in my post when I voted for Grujah. There is said this: "ftl (1) - ftl looks to me like a perfect example of scum trying at the beginning of the game to be active and fully participate, but as the game wore on, it became more and more difficult to keep up and not make a mistake, so instead of posting more and potentially making a mistake, he slowly sinks into the background."

So in summary, I would prefer to vote for: Dsell, Young Nick, TheMunch, jotheonah, but willing to vote for ftl and Frisk. I don't think I would want to pursue a voltaire or a morgrim lynch at this point.

For now it really is a toss up between voting for Dsell, YoungNick and TheMunch. but I will vote: TheMunch


Two other unrelated points I want to bring up.

1. On the off chance that Galz's cup is cult related, shall we change the status to "not drink." I think if the cup is cult related it is more likely that to "drink" is more likely to result in being cult recruited, that to "not drink."

2. TheMunch wagon is taking off. But on the chance that it doesn't. Should we implement a soft deadline similar to yesterday's?

PPE: Ashersky just got bumped up to likely scum, but themunch's vote on him seems to be more of a deflection to get town to pay attention to ashersky instead of theMunch

[Dsell]

I gotta say, I'm town and I played very badly on day 1. However, I'm loving the people who are saying that if I'm scum, I'm playing a real smooth day 2.

[ashersky]

@galz

My vote on you is for continually refusing to acknowledge that folks can look on wagon for mafia, and for trying to control town actions.  I think that is scummy and anti-town.  I don't think you'll be lynched for it, and if you are town, obviously I don't want you to be.

11 vs. 10 sounds small, but this is a small sample size.  But aren't you on the wagon?  Aren't you town?  Then we're looking at X mafia out of 9 for your analysis.  Do you find others on the wagon obvtown?  Reduce the number further.

On-wagon should be the easier place for you to scum hunt, if you are town, just based on numbers.  So why are you ignoring the obvious?

[jotheonah]

@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought.  As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.

Being scummy does not mean they are mafia, is what I meant, and a point I have seen made often on f.ds.  My last sentence means I do not think people will lynch Galz because I voted for him for being scummy, so if he is town we won't mislynch.  Me however, I am town, but folks seem to be ok with mislynching me for very little.

So you are saying
(A) You think Galz is scummy, but
(B) That is not a statement about his alignment, merely a statement that he's playing in an anti-town way ?
But the thing is (C) You're voting for him and (D) you're trying to downplay your vote by saying it won't lead to a mislynch because no one else will follow it.

Well why are you calling it a mislynch already unless you have a town-read on Galz? And if you do, why on earth are you voting him?? And anyway, I think we all agree that a vote means, at the very least two things, from a town-aligned player. (1) I don't think this person is town and (2) I would be ok lynching them. If you can't say those two things, you shouldn't be voting for someone (excluding maybe RVS or pressure votes, neither of which apply here).  You seem to be indicating that neither 1 nor 2 is true (You think Galz is town and you don't want to see him lynched), yet you're voting for him.

Sorry, but that's really blatantly anti-town. Vote: ashersky.

[jotheonah]

@yuma, the one thing I want to point out in your analysis is that Morgim7 gets some cred for being the other viable lynch yesterday. Doesn't make any sense for scum to try to save their PR by arguing for a lynch on another person on their team. If Morgrim7 is scum, I don't think he's with Grujah, but FWIW my read on him has shifted to probTown.

[ashersky]

@joth -- yes, Galz is scum (and anti-town) with that line of thought.  As mentioned by others all over f.ds, scum =\= mafia, of course, and I have zero worries I will somehow start a wagon and mislynch possible town, unlike all of you on my wagon.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say here? Which line of thought? What does scum =/= mafia have to do with it (are you saying Galz is SK or something?)? And also I have no idea what you're talking about with your last sentence.

Being scummy does not mean they are mafia, is what I meant, and a point I have seen made often on f.ds.  My last sentence means I do not think people will lynch Galz because I voted for him for being scummy, so if he is town we won't mislynch.  Me however, I am town, but folks seem to be ok with mislynching me for very little.

So you are saying
(A) You think Galz is scummy, but
(B) That is not a statement about his alignment, merely a statement that he's playing in an anti-town way ?
But the thing is (C) You're voting for him and (D) you're trying to downplay your vote by saying it won't lead to a mislynch because no one else will follow it.

Well why are you calling it a mislynch already unless you have a town-read on Galz? And if you do, why on earth are you voting him?? And anyway, I think we all agree that a vote means, at the very least two things, from a town-aligned player. (1) I don't think this person is town and (2) I would be ok lynching them. If you can't say those two things, you shouldn't be voting for someone (excluding maybe RVS or pressure votes, neither of which apply here).  You seem to be indicating that neither 1 nor 2 is true (You think Galz is town and you don't want to see him lynched), yet you're voting for him.

Sorry, but that's really blatantly anti-town. Vote: ashersky.

Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior?  Your vote is a lot like mine.

As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine.  I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there.  Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.

[jotheonah]

Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior?  Your vote is a lot like mine.

As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there.  Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.

Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.

Nope, I think you're mafia. No hypocrisy here. The hostility, the defensiveness, the arguing that black is white in order to try to save your skin - it all reads scum to me!

[jotheonah]

I sort of messed that up. The bottom graf was supposed to go after the first quote.

[ashersky]

Does your vote mean you think am mafia, or did you just vote me for my "anti-town" behavior?  Your vote is a lot like mine.

As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there.  Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.

Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.

Nope, I think you're mafia. No hypocrisy here. The hostility, the defensiveness, the arguing that black is white in order to try to save your skin - it all reads scum to me!

I look forward to your posts after you kill a townie, me, then.  I do love how convinced you are, though.  Makes it more hilarious for the mafia watching how no one is willing to scum hunt them.  Your conviction does read town to me, at least.

[sparky5856]

Reading the rest of Day 2 since my last post. Free time = WHERE ARE YOU

All I can say is I would have to be pretty dumb to redirect THAT much from fellow scum on day 1.

So you say it's a mistake that you attempted to constantly redirect attention from your fellow scumbuddy, now that other people are pegging you for it. Good to know.

I imagine that one or more of his scumbuddies took that protection, and it'll definitely buy them some time, because something pretty radical would have to happen for me to consider lynching someone on the grujah wagon. I believe our chances of hitting scum off wagon are just so, so much better.

note to self: if Dsell is mafia then there's someone obscenely powerful who was bussing Grujah and who's mafia.

Ok guys. Read day two. It is 11:00 p.m. here so if nothing I say makes sense, forgve me.
Many people have almost confirmed themselves town, like Galz, maybe eHunt.
I'm gonna Vote: Dsell because of Galz's compelling case against him. And because of this:

Alright, I'm rereading TheMunch's posts and he is SO. SCUMMY. I realize that Galz has a forthcoming post that is going to expound on this, but I'm sure this case will not be hard to build. Vote: TheMunch

And I'm not even finished rereading him yet. I'll still reread others but at this point I rather doubt I'll find anyone scummier.

that was...um...yeah. No. All right, my eyelids are falling. goodnight

NOW, if Morgrim is scum, then Dsell must be town. I don't see much reason to bus your partner now when we're still far away from deadline WAIT. MULTIPLE SCUM TEAMS. Then scratch that, Morgrim and Dsell can't be on the same team then, in that case. Morgrim may only be pushing someone who's not on his scumteam.

#1734 WOAHHHHH lot of words that I agree with without even reading them. I've already said he gave me an uneasy feeling.

Will post later.

Well... EVERYONE has to do this! Otherwise everyone would be modkilled. Trying too hard to make it seem like he's here?

As to my vote, if Galz is lynched D2, it'll be a town decision, not just mine. I am not attempting to control town, unlike others, just putting info/opinions out there.  Besides, if you all are successful in lynching me, then somehow convince everyone not to look on my wagon after I flip town...well, you all deserve to win as mafia.

Bullcrap. Everything you put out there influences the town. And everyone is free to make their own decisions about how they'll scumhunt. So this distinction between Galzria "controlling the town" and you "just putting opinions out there"? I don't think it's remotely viable.

Yeah uhhhhh, don't you WANT to control town if you want people to value and follow your opinions?

I can't seriously analyze everything as my brain just doesn't want to do that for some reason.  I find it weird though that there's way too many scummy people out there right now. What I'm seeing: Dsell (slightly), Morgrim, ashersky, TheMunch, shraeye, Young Nick. What are the odds that ALL of these players are scum? Isn't it more likely that some players are watching all of this from afar just letting us kill each other? I.e., they may occasionally post but not provide much detail or insight at all. I realize this is the case some of the people I listed, but this is STILL going on.

[TheMunch]

TheMunch - Yeah, again this has already been done for me by Galz. As he notes, TheMunch is very liberal with his vote. It seems he uses it in the same way that others use a FOS. That isn't my play style, but I don't really mind it. The buddying with shraeye isn't a huge deal for me (see me as town defending and having eerily similar reads as Frisk who was scum in MVIII). His vote on me was interesting, and could go either way, but annoyed me as he kept putting words into my mouth (well... keyboard) and misinterpreting my posts. That wasn't cool. His defense of Grujah is scummy, more so than Dsell in my opinion, but even worse was his complete questioning of the motives of the Grujah wagon--while it is very possible for scum to be on it--his analysis was that every single vote was bad and provided no information. TheMunch is really into getting "information" but doesn't seem to be too interested in lynching scum.

So basically there was a lot in here and in Galz post that I wanted him to address but since its gaining visibility I'd rather just comment on it.  Basically 2 main things:

1) I didn't defend Grujah.  While I said that I didn't have a scum read on him (which we now all know is wrong, k fine), I was never actively pushing against him getting lynched.  A "Not scum" read is not the same as a town read; it just means I had a neutral read on him which is consistent.  I could understand this argument against me if during the Grujah lynch I was actually pushing hard for someone else to get lynched instead of him.  We have seen others push much harder to see not-Grujah lynched; these would be stronger targets than me for that reason.

2) I was not questioning the motives of the Grujah wagon, per se (at least never to the extent of "there is scum on the Grujah wagon"), and I definitely didn't say that every single vote was "bad and provided no information".  I just saw people saying, hey lets look off wagon because everyone on wagon is town (I now like much better the arguments that have come up recently, such as by Galz, that while you may or may not get a pass for being on the wagon, it is much smarter to be looking off wagon).  So I felt that since I didn't agree with the notion that everyone on the wagon should get a free pass, I decided to actually look at the wagon and decide for myself who should actually get some town cred.  I gave that out to the people that actually had reasons for voting for Grujah; the rest just got nothing reads to me for their participation on the wagon.  Since I had felt that there were some people who proposed that everyone on the wagon deserved town cred, I went on a tirade to "prove them wrong".  This was a very negative and adversarial approach and for that I apologize.

Now most of my attention is off wagon, namely Young Nick, Ashersky, and Dsell.  Tldr: I never defended Grujah, and I never got scum reads from people on the Grujah wagon, only town or neutral; I just chose a much too adversarial approach.  I'm not saying this behavior is admirable, but at least its consistent; see: me vs O for much too personal reasons.  I might try to be rational but I can be reactionary from time to time and it would seem that I have a tendency to try to prove I'm right instead of arguing what actually matters.

[Dsell]

I just saw people saying, hey lets look off wagon because everyone on wagon is town (I now like much better the arguments that have come up recently, such as by Galz, that while you may or may not get a pass for being on the wagon, it is much smarter to be looking off wagon).

When did anyone ever say everyone on the wagon was town?

[TheMunch]

I just saw people saying, hey lets look off wagon because everyone on wagon is town (I now like much better the arguments that have come up recently, such as by Galz, that while you may or may not get a pass for being on the wagon, it is much smarter to be looking off wagon).

When did anyone ever say everyone on the wagon was town?

As I am rereading, I am realizing more and more that the super strong push was probably more imagined by me than an actual strong push to look exclusively off wagon.  Because of my vote on joth a lot of the responses were very "hey, thats strange, why did you do that" and it was all centered around looking on or off wagon.  I think I just got overly defensive regarding this debate and it became more about me proving myself right than proving any one person particularly wrong.  Then once I got started, my desire to prove myself right caused me to spend a disproportional amount of time looking on the wagon.

But the posts that I feel skewed my impression are as follows:

Alright, now that I know I'm alive, time to take the time to traipse through this thread. (Ten (...eleven?) Words beginning with "T" in a row. Impressive.).

The people voting for Joth right now however are being ridiculous. What he said is spot on. It makes so much more sense to look at Grujah's associations - off the wagon particularly - first. I won't go so far as to call you all scummy for your votes on him, but seriously - don't get cocky over our successful lynch of Grujah. It took time and effort to pick him our, and in particular it did NOT take opportunistic or hasty play. So cool your jets.

This is consistent with Galz opinion recently and I am upset I missed it when he had said it.  Maybe it was the fact that my judgement was being called into question that I got overly defensive.

I still get bad vibes from Munch, and his jumping on jo just makes it worse.  For someone so concerned on day 1 about lynching for info, his treatment of the info we have seems odd.  The wagon is a clear partition; why would you NOT give townie points to people who successfully lynched scum?  And, to my recollection, that was in the face of a good amount of doubt from some people (and these people definitely need to be looked into).

Again I am being called out and this immediately puts me on the defensive.  More fuel for my desire to prove myself right.  Although, eHal is actually pushing hard looking off wagon.  Its looking more and more like people just misinterpreted my vote on joth as being against looking off wagon instead of, as I've already stated, I was just voting for him the way in which he proposed it; two separate things.

I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1. Especially when there's a town this big, we've got to have a whole bunch of them. Still, I would expect that there's more scum off the wagon than on it, so we should start by scumhunting there and then find the bussing mafia later.

Ftl is the next.  He is another that didn't say "Lets only look off wagon"  He just said lets do off wagon first then look for bussers later.  Still another opportunity for me to misread the situation.

Then Cuzz calls me out for not pissing my pants about the Grujah wagon.  I get defensive again and my stream of conciousness post causes me to actually want to develop my opinion about the Grujah wagon for myself.

@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.

Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.

Today we get to do the opposite.  Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?

Yeah I didn't mean to be very poo poo about the fact that we lynched town day 1.  I can definitely see why, after having played a ton of games where town ultimately gets lynched D1, it is very exciting to go into day 2 under a differently light.  But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon.  I still need to go back and do the reread of the development of the grujah wagon to see what actually went down.  Maybe it was the amount of attention I paid but the whole wagon seemed to go down very quickly so I would love to reevaluate what actually happened.  I'll be back when I do that.

So yeah at this point, I had a unreasonably strong opinion that tons of people were pushing everyone to look off wagon hard.  Couple this with getting called out a bunch of times for being kinda sketchy, I got really defensive really fast. 

Note here I said "But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon."  My opinion on this matter has never changed.  I will concede that I spent a disproportionate amount of time looking at the former instead of the latter.  Now I can continue to do what I have been doing recently "...and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon."  Others have beat me to the punch; but I am a proponent of arguments of this nature that have been brought up already, my strongest reads being on Young Nick, Dsell, and Ashersky.

[Dsell]

@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.

Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.

Today we get to do the opposite.  Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?

Yeah I didn't mean to be very poo poo about the fact that we lynched town day 1.  I can definitely see why, after having played a ton of games where town ultimately gets lynched D1, it is very exciting to go into day 2 under a differently light.  But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon.  I still need to go back and do the reread of the development of the grujah wagon to see what actually went down.  Maybe it was the amount of attention I paid but the whole wagon seemed to go down very quickly so I would love to reevaluate what actually happened.  I'll be back when I do that.

Uhhh is this a possible scumslip? I've never been a fan of scumslip hunting (of 2 real "scumslips" in f.ds history, one of them was by my scumbuddy and the other was in a game I was neither in nor following), but this is kind of interesting. I suppose it's probably nothing (and of course Munch will say it's nothing) but it's at least something to look at.

[TheMunch]

@Munch - I'm not going to be a jerk like Cuzz here, but we absolutely have something to go on.

Ordinarily, we'll lynch town, and we'll look at the people who pushed the wagon and call them all scum because they lynched a townie.

Today we get to do the opposite.  Who DIDN'T help lynch grujah and why?

Yeah I didn't mean to be very poo poo about the fact that we lynched town day 1.  I can definitely see why, after having played a ton of games where town ultimately gets lynched D1, it is very exciting to go into day 2 under a differently light.  But maybe I am a little skeptical, being my first time and all, and I kind of want to both not count out that there are no scum on the wagon, and look at the people who actively were pushing against the grujah wagon.  I still need to go back and do the reread of the development of the grujah wagon to see what actually went down.  Maybe it was the amount of attention I paid but the whole wagon seemed to go down very quickly so I would love to reevaluate what actually happened.  I'll be back when I do that.

Uhhh is this a possible scumslip? I've never been a fan of scumslip hunting (of 2 real "scumslips" in f.ds history, one of them was by my scumbuddy and the other was in a game I was neither in nor following), but this is kind of interesting. I suppose it's probably nothing (and of course Munch will say it's nothing) but it's at least something to look at.

You're right, it is nothing.  Read my posts, I talk in the negative a lot.  I probably just dropped the not or I just formed my sentence poorly.  But the next sentence clearly says what I mean, that normally town gets lynched D1 so "it is very exciting to go into D2 under a different light."  I would call it a typo.

[TheMunch]

PS Dsell, do you have any comment on the actual content of my post?

[cayvie]

Everyone, but especially Galzria:

Do you think there's a cult in this game?