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[Eevee]

Oh well, agree to disagree I guess. I understand your viewpoint, but you have not convinced me and I won't stop thinking about these things. I can not post my thoughts for now though, no problem. I think the biggest benefit of these analyses would be in situation where he have to evaluate individual players role claim or choose between two players in LyLo. Obviously Robz can't make every role according to previous games, because not everyone has played here before and it would make the game too easy to break.

[Watno]

Can someone do their best to sum up the Shraeye wagon? It's damn tough going through 32 pages of posts and quotes and arriving at a coherent place.

No problem.  First I did stuff.  Then idiots decided to act idiotic, so they voted for me.  Then enough people pointed out that they were idiotic that those voters eventually backed off.  Because nobody likes looking like an idiot.  Except watno.  He's content to still claim I've contributed no content yet.  Despite the content that I've contributed.  Apparently he loves looking like an idiot.

I didn't say you didn't contribute content yet, I'm saying some of your posts try to look like they were conveying more content than they actually are. Also, can you stop getting personal please? Thank you.

[Cuzz]

Yeah some folks have already said things along these lines, but everyone should take a second and reread the Golden Rule on page 1. This is a fun game first and foremost.

And Munch, being quite new myself I understand it's frustrating as a new player to see lots of references you weren't around for, but it is helpful for those who were there, and hopefully you won't think it detracts too much from your experience. You can even ask for references and go read parts of these games yourself. And I echo those who have pointed out that changing playstyle is not so easy for everyone. (Also, please don't think the first paragraph is directed only at you)

Now, let's all come together and get back to trying to murder the filthy, murderous scum.


(Oh, and +lots for this:

inb4 someone starts a "Decline of civility in forum mafia" thread. 

)

[yuma]

Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.

[ashersky]

Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.

Vote: Yuma for too much sensibility!  Unvote.

[TheMunch]

I want to start off by apologizing for my behavior last night.  I lost my cool and it was uncalled for.  That being said I've awoke with a cooler head on my shoulders and am ready to move forward if you guys are.  While there were some posts just as reactionary as mine, I was pleased with the tone the thread moved to, despite my hostility.  I particularly appreciate the comment from jotheonah;  I was finding myself getting frustrated by the campiness and some recognition from a member of the community was comforting.  I wanted to participate in the game to my fullest but I found myself unable to participate from lack of knowledge with the threat of being called the stigmatized "lurker" hanging over my shoulders.  After pages of this, it appears I felt I had no other choice.  I also apologize to O; personal attacks were uncalled for.  I feel like I have misinterpretted your responses to accusations of lurking and I would love to see you prove me wrong about the self-rightous assessment of you.  You have already begun to prove me wrong and all it took was a bit of honest participation.  I look forward to hearing your insight, as long as you are willing to give it.

That being said, I can concede that actions in previous games are not completely without value.  Yet, looking forward, I have one humble request.  Keep in mind that I am a participant in this game and I am quite new.  I am not going to say that you are not allowed to develop feelings and intuitions based on the way that you know others to have played, but I would propose that there are real arguments to be formed based soley on the actions of individuals in this game alone.  While hunches and intuition might allow you to focus your efforts while scumhunting, ultimately it will be hard evidence and contradictions that will pull the trigger.

I just hope we can put this incident behind us, while gaining some insight as to how an outsider might view the community (albiet very poorly expressed).  I would hate to see myself day 1 lynched over at worst misunderstanding.  Vote: O

[ehunt]

That being said, I can concede that actions in previous games are not completely without value.  Yet, looking forward, I have one humble request.  Keep in mind that I am a participant in this game and I am quite new.  I am not going to say that you are not allowed to develop feelings and intuitions based on the way that you know others to have played, but I would propose that there are real arguments to be formed based soley on the actions of individuals in this game alone.  While hunches and intuition might allow you to focus your efforts while scumhunting, ultimately it will be hard evidence and contradictions that will pull the trigger.

I remember being really annoyed by this when I was new, playing MVI (I had read MIV carefully and was a sub in MV simultaneously with MVI, but did not know the other games).  But now that I know a bunch of folks' playstyles, it's very hard not to reference past events. There's just not a lot to talk about on day one, so it's tempting to focus on the concrete.

That said, I think I got pretty good reads in that game just by completely ignoring most of the talk about past games. The one exception is that I was sure Morgrim was scum on day one in that game even though everyone was telling me that no, he's just crazy. That was valuable information that only playing with him could have given.

<---answers post about how it's annoying to reference past games by referencing a past game
<---realizes this but posts anyway.

[TheMunch]

Cool, So with that taken care of, how do we actually proceed.  If been thinking about this since the beginning of the game, but how does a group this group actually complete a vote on day 1.  13 is such a large number and the most wagony of wagons could only get up to 6 or 7.  How do you turn those kinds of positions into one where we can decide to actually make a lynch, being convinced that town or not an individuals death is one where a great deal of information is to be gained?  I would like to see proposals for how this is to be accomplished.  The deadline is approaching.  That is, unless a day 1 nolynch is actually a good thing?

[TheMunch]

Cool, So with that taken care of, how do we actually proceed.  I've been thinking about this since the beginning of the game, but how does a group this large actually complete a vote on day 1.  13 is such a large number and the most wagony of wagons could only get up to 6 or 7.  How do you turn those kinds of positions into one where we can decide to actually make a lynch, being convinced that, town or not, an individuals death is one where a great deal of information is to be gained?  I would like to see proposals for how this is to be accomplished.  The deadline is approaching.  That is, unless a day 1 nolynch is actually a good thing?

Ugh typos

[Voltaire]

Do shraeye and TheMunch have some sort of post restriction where they have to vote for O even if they're already voting for O, or something? It's very strange and keeps happening.

I'm never going to catch up on my re-read if this thread keeps generating pages at the same pace I can go through old ones.

I'm starting to see the case against Watno, by the way, as long as we're pursuing the "who isn't helping that much" line of thought.

[shraeye]

Can someone do their best to sum up the Shraeye wagon? It's damn tough going through 32 pages of posts and quotes and arriving at a coherent place.

No problem.  First I did stuff.  Then idiots decided to act idiotic, so they voted for me.  Then enough people pointed out that they were idiotic that those voters eventually backed off.  Because nobody likes looking like an idiot.  Except watno.  He's content to still claim I've contributed no content yet.  Despite the content that I've contributed.  Apparently he loves looking like an idiot.

I didn't say you didn't contribute content yet, I'm saying some of your posts try to look like they were conveying more content than they actually are. Also, can you stop getting personal please? Thank you.

Ok, then we're cool about my Major point A from #655.  But I still have strong concern over Major point B.

Major point B
Trying simply to shoot everyone down instead of actually scumhunting.
He goes after Voltaire for "knowing" that O is lurking intentionally, continues his false argument that all I'm doing is talking about words,  jumps on TheMunch for trying to keep posts tidy by waiting for ehunt to finish his 7-point multi-post before TheMunch answered ehunt's question to him.  Then he jumps on Frisk for policy voting TheMunch and then not unvoting, FoS's the entire yuma wagon for not realizing yuma's mistake was honest, pokes Morgrim for being late to understand that shray is sarcastic, questions how Voltgloss "knows" there's scum on yumas wagon, chides and votes for the lurkers, then winks at sarcastic joth.
Wowie zowie.  You just shot down 7 people/factions.  Actually 5 people, 1 entire wagon, and a pair of lurkers.  I'm all for pointing out consistencies, but the problem here is you point out so many and all so weakly, that you are pointing the smallest of "fingers of suspicion" in every direction instead of focusing your attention and effort on actually finding scum.  I suppose the strategy is vocally suspect everyone just a bit, so that nobody's feathers get ruffled, then point out on day 2 that you were right, trying to gain town cred.  To me, this is much more suspicious than a lot of things I've seen going on so far.  Seriously, you found all of these things suspicious and off, but none of them were worth a more in depth look at the offending parties?

I don't see your problem with my post #608. If people post something i think might be scummy, i point it out and see if they can explain to me why they did. Since there's not a single person I'm convinced is scum yet, I can't go after them excessively.

Here is my problem with post #608 so far.  You posted thin arguments on tons of people, and only yuma has responded to you...What I want to see rather than this laundry list of small mistakes, is for you to commit to sorting them out.  Or anything out.  Follow up those small pokes you made, don't let people get by without answering them, demand answers until you are satisfied.  In short, be a good town player.  While typing this yuma slipped in #767 above, which is great.  This is what you need to do; latch onto your questions and never let them go unanswered.  Don't just machine-gun suspicion all around and see what sticks.  the machine-gun suspicion play is super-scummy.

I know I've explained this twice, but I was working it out in my head as I was falling asleep yesterday, and I've got a clearer way to say it I hope.  Machine-gunning thin arguments around and seeing what people agree with and pick up on seems to either be a solid scum-play or poor town-play.  If you're scum, then you can just post lots of small errors from town-members, see what people agree with, and then drive home a mis-lynch.  If you're town, a post with this many people in it could hit scum, but is also bound to sling suspicion at town member.  Scum can start agreeing with your argument against that poor town player, and push you into driving home a mislynch.

[Galzria]

Cool, So with that taken care of, how do we actually proceed.  If been thinking about this since the beginning of the game, but how does a group this group actually complete a vote on day 1.  13 is such a large number and the most wagony of wagons could only get up to 6 or 7.  How do you turn those kinds of positions into one where we can decide to actually make a lynch, being convinced that town or not an individuals death is one where a great deal of information is to be gained?  I would like to see proposals for how this is to be accomplished.  The deadline is approaching.  That is, unless a day 1 nolynch is actually a good thing?

This is a major problem and will likely continue to be. The issue is that any wagon that gets above size X will inevitably become a "scummy looking wagon" - weather this notion is proposed by a defending scummate, a scum trying to buy towncred if the wagoned player ever flips town, or by townies who either read the wagoned player differently or just think no wagon can get large without scum help - all of those are possible. Breaking that threshold to lynch scum is incredibly difficult. While we don't know the numbers here, I've pointed out before that in a standard, 9 player game, to lynch scum D1 takes 5 of 7 town votes, or about 71%. The larger the number needed grows (even if the % stays the same), the harder it will naturally be. This is WHY we're almost certain to lynch town D1.

That said, it's even harder for town to lynch town with no scum help. In the 9 player scenario, it would take 5 of 6 town votes to do. So while it's highly likely we'll hit town regardless, the true value comes in splitting the field. This is WHY D1 is so tough. We can talk until we're blue (and we will!), but without flips nothing is ever going to be known and a consensus is ridiculously hard to come by. **In most past games** D1 has gone to deadline and we've scrambled to lynch whoever appeared most scummy throughout D1 (**M-VII was the exception, when we no-lynched. However the three running wagons at deadline were ALL against town**).

You've asked for ideas about how to break this and move forward - but I don't know what to tell you. My suggestion is that the town picks someone who has appeared scummy at some point to most of us and run with it. Will they likely flip town? Yes. But at least we have something to analyze D2. "Scumhunting" and "Culthunting" will be largely fruitless D1. But it's WHY it's so important that we make people take stands on issues of scumminess that do pop up. Because after D1 that's how we start arranging people and pairs in our lists of scumminess.

All of the above, of course, is amplified even more by possible investigative results from PR's that come out... Again, after D1. This is why people treat D1 as RVS. In some ways the game doesn't start until D2.

[shraeye]

Do shraeye and TheMunch have some sort of post restriction where they have to vote for O even if they're already voting for O, or something? It's very strange and keeps happening.

I'm never going to catch up on my re-read if this thread keeps generating pages at the same pace I can go through old ones.

I'm starting to see the case against Watno, by the way, as long as we're pursuing the "who isn't helping that much" line of thought.

I can't answer for TheMunch, maybe he was trying to copycat.  But I am doing it to drive home the point, clearly it worked.

[shraeye]

Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.

I sincerely apologize if I am the cause of the decrease in fun for you.  And for other people.  This is not my intention at all.  I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, and have meant all my posts in earnest, or in good fun, or a mix of both.  No actual anger has driven any of these posts.  I hope we can continue to enjoy this game together.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.13

shraeye (2) -- Axxle
ehunt (2) -- O, Jotheonah
O (2) -- shraeye, TheMunch
Glooble (1) -- yuma
TheMunch (1) -- Captain_Frisk
Grujah (3) -- Glooble, Eevee, Morgrim7
yuma (1) -- Voltaire
Voltaire (2) -- Insomniac, ehunt
cayvie (1) -- ftl
Axxle (1) -- cayvie
Captain_Frisk (1) -- Watno

Not Voting (9) -- Young Nick, eHalcyon, Voltgloss, Cuzz, Dsell, Galzria, ashersky, Grujah, ibgtennis

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch. Day 1 deadline is Saturday, September 29th at 1:00 PM (EDT)

So, we barely have a leading wagon ATM. And the one we do have is Grujah, which, not super convincing. I have no problem putting my town ass on a wagon to get to the lynch, even if I don't 100% believe in it. But we're so far even from that point.

[jotheonah]

Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.

I sincerely apologize if I am the cause of the decrease in fun for you.  And for other people.  This is not my intention at all.  I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, and have meant all my posts in earnest, or in good fun, or a mix of both.  No actual anger has driven any of these posts.  I hope we can continue to enjoy this game together.

I feel like one thing ZM2 did accomplish (besides MAKING HISTORY) was that I think I understand shraeye a lot better and how he plays. It has made him read townier to me this game.

Why DID the ehunt wagon die? He really did start out the game much edgier and more hostile than I'm used to from him and then eased off it when criticized/voted on. And as much as I approve of using wagons to police good behavior, the fact that he straightened up when the heat hit him doesn't really give him town cred at all. It's what smart scum would do.

[Eevee]

This is going to look like I'm tunneling Grujah, and maybe I am, but how can you oppose his lynch Joth? Dude has said virtually nothing, surely nothing that would make him seem particularly towny. It would also suit the idea of starting to punish people for lurky behavior pretty well.

I usually have a town read on ehunt, but not here. I'm actually very fine with that lynch come to think of it.Vote: ehunt, lets wake this wagon up.

[TheMunch]

Well this game took a dramatic turn to the not as fun. I will not be posting today (busy day for me ahead) and I will be considering whether or not to continue playing this game. Mafia is supposed to be fun. And this game is becoming increasingly less fun and subsequentially less interesting.

I sincerely apologize if I am the cause of the decrease in fun for you.  And for other people.  This is not my intention at all.  I'm thoroughly enjoying this game, and have meant all my posts in earnest, or in good fun, or a mix of both.  No actual anger has driven any of these posts.  I hope we can continue to enjoy this game together.

I feel like one thing ZM2 did accomplish (besides MAKING HISTORY) was that I think I understand shraeye a lot better and how he plays. It has made him read townier to me this game.

Why DID the ehunt wagon die? He really did start out the game much edgier and more hostile than I'm used to from him and then eased off it when criticized/voted on. And as much as I approve of using wagons to police good behavior, the fact that he straightened up when the heat hit him doesn't really give him town cred at all. It's what smart scum would do.

I did bring this up, although it almost definitely got lost in all the mess.  I had reread, that wasn't a lie, and the people that had given me scummy reads were ehunt, yuma, and watno (at least they were the most egregious offenders).  But after reading Galzria's post (really loved it, quite informative), I would really love to hone in on who so far has provided us with the most information that can be used once they flipped.  There has been a ton thats gone down day 1 and I would love to circle in on something of value.

So I've seen 4 wagons (of note): Shraeye, ehunt, yuma, O.

Shraeye's wagon shouldn't have been a thing.  However there were a few sketchy folks on it that had voted for Shraeye for reasons not his scumslip "I cant believe I got caught."  I believe these were Watno, Glooble and Grujah, but I could be mistaken.

The ehunt wagon, I forget who started it (Cayvie?) but I dont like it.  I was on it cause I thought ehunt was acting just as scummy as the next.  But after the misunderstanding of his one-post-a-day proposal blew over (I'm still not 100% convinced it was a misunderstanding but it really isn't that huge of an issue) everything seemed to die down.  I dont know how much information can be gained for ehunt dying but maybe someone else has more insight than me.

The yuma wagon was a mess.  Mistakes happen, thats cool.  The reason that I got on it was because of how Yuma was defending himself, which was much different than the others that jumped on him for "rolefishing."  This didn't get much attention but Yuma got, in my opinion, way too defensive way too fast.  People also jumped on him very quickly.  Maybe there is still something to be gained from that wagon.

The O wagon, I'll admit doesn't really have a whole lot of basis.  O might be O but the reason I've been voting for him and have continued to vote for him (facetiously, its not a post restriction, its just emphasis, maybe a little bit of copycatting of shraeye... I thought he was being amusing, maybe I was the only one) is more to do with the way hes been playing than whether or not I think hes scum.  I think this might be very similar from the people that are on the wagon.  While I still probably would like to see him dead, I dont think his death is the most valuable (yeah thats how lurking works, you dont say much, not much is said about you so you get away for being an invaluable first day kill, blah blah blah).  Unvote

So those wagons aside theres still a few people in the works.  Whether or not their deaths bring around lots of juicy morsals for the rest of us D2 is another story, but I'm looking at watno (Shraeye outlines his case numerous times), Axxle (where are you buddy), Glooble, and Grujah (who have both been seen getting scummy reads from a pile of people).

I would love to pick one case, see how much we can extract, then get a lynch.  Vote: Yuma

PPE:  So Eevee is back on the ehunt.  I'm not saying its a bad thing but why ehunt?  I got scum reads too but what evidence do you have from the wagon that you would like to see used and/or addressed?

[jotheonah]

vote: ehunt then.  Maybe I need to look over Grujah, again. I don't so much oppose the lynch as feel we can do better.

[Eevee]

vote: ehunt then.  Maybe I need to look over Grujah, again. I don't so much oppose the lynch as feel we can do better.

I agree with how hard it is to lynch scum, especially now. Going after a lurker is sort of a combination of random, policy and ingamereasons - lynch. Thats why I went back to reread the silent guys to find one that looked scummy to me. My gut says ehunt feels off here, but Galzria is right, it is sort of unfair to punish him for being active when we have guys alive who have said almost nothing.

[jotheonah]

Urgh. We are not punishing him for being active. We are punishing him for being scummy.

Galzria's "All people who are active are scummy" is the false premise in his otherwise solid argument. It's bullshit. There are plenty of active people I have town reads on.

[Galzria]

Urgh. We are not punishing him for being active. We are punishing him for being scummy.

Galzria's "All people who are active are scummy" is the false premise in his otherwise solid argument. It's bullshit. There are plenty of active people I have town reads on.

I never said "all people who are active are scummy". Thanks for misrepresenting though. I said "All active people invariably do things that will be perceived as scummy to some people" - Please, name me one game, just one, with one person who went from D1 to the finish without being accused of saying or doing even a single thing suspicious.

That was my argument, and is completely valid.

[Eevee]

I think what he means is, the guys who lurk never even take the risk of looking scummy because they don't do anything. So, ehunt could have avoided this suspicion just by staying quiet. And we don't want that.

And ninja'd by the man himself.

[Voltaire]

I actually got a "town" read on ehunt after that whole kerfuffle. I don't think he's a good lynch.

Galz, do you plan on voting for a non-contributor? If so, who are you eyeing?

[Galzria]

I actually got a "town" read on ehunt after that whole kerfuffle. I don't think he's a good lynch.

Galz, do you plan on voting for a non-contributor? If so, who are you eyeing?

I'm strongly considering Watno. I'm doing a reread atm. I had mild suspicion of eHunt up until his latest (the response to ibg read genuine). I also have a town read on Yuma that I don't want to delve into in-depth. Grujah I force myself to cut some slack on, just like Joth, otherwise I would always see them as scummy. Ibg hasn't posted much still, but I appreciate the effort. This game will be overwhelming for the Vets as is - I can't imagine being a new player here.

Glooble is another candidate I would strongly consider right now. I'll reread him later today. But for now, it's looking to be Watno