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[yuma]

sorry... that was incorrect... my bad i'll repost and try to get it right...

[yuma]

the post that TheMunch quotes was before the post that I quote, so I suppose he makes a valid point, but my point that I was trying to get in both apologies was what I said in the post before this:

I may or may not be too important to lynch day 1, but my mistake is truly bad because it potentially allows for an easy lynch target that allow scum to slip into day 2 w/o any effort.

[Axxle]

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

[Voltaire]

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

Blergh. Are you sure?

[TheMunch]

Ok so now my being new gets to show its true colors.  I was very confused about all the goings on and the huge wagon that formed on yuma.  I too was confused by Cayvie's post, mostly because I feel like I dont know the roles well enough and really had no idea what should could be hinting at.  But I wasn't so confused that I would ever vote for Cayvie.  Yuma does vote for Cayvie and he got a lot of heat for it.  I read through everything very carefully; me being confused about Cayvie's post doesn't help me not side with Yuma's desire for clarification.  But, ok, let me believe for a second that Yuma knows better.  It wasn't until this that I was really convinced:

But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.

Yuma was trying to defend a million accusations and let this bad boy slip.  I am fresher than a baby's bottom and even I was not impressed by this line.  I feel like its way over the top to try to get everyone invested with you not being lynched.  You said "hey this is a huge mistake to kill me day 1... you'll be sorry," on the day where more likely than not we are going to kill town anyway and I honestly dont feel you'd be a huge loss.  I dont like being told the defense of "i'm too important to town to kill" and I've already called out, I believe, ehunt for doing the same thing.  It seems like a drastic overraction and quite quite scummy.  You get my Vote: Yuma.

You missed the sentence before the one you quoted.  here is the full quote

This whole investigation is blowing a mistake into something else and I feel even worse because it is providing scum with an opportunity to slide by into Day 2 w/o raising anyone's attention. If it does end up that I get lynched, I apologize for putting town in this position,

I may or may not be too important to lynch day 1, but my mistake is truly bad because it potentially allows for an easy lynch target that allow scum to slip into day 2 w/o any effort.

That logic only really works if you are town.  Ofc it is a mistake for town to lynch town but you have convinced no one that you are not super scummy from you post.  It doesn't hurt town to vote scum day 1.  You have responded to my disappointment in you saying "i'm too valuable to kill" by quote yourself stating why you are "too valuable to kill."  Thats not a defense and is arguable more scummy.  My vote stays.

[Morgrim7]

OK, lots to say:
First, Unvote. Shraeye was a bad wagon. Sorry about that, didn't realize that was sarcasm. Meh. Me and my thick head

Secondly, Vote: O. He shows up, posts like twice, one of his posts being totally insignificant, and the other being just a vote. Thats...ugh. Why? O, you're better than that.

eHunt, I'm with you for the two-post-a-day thing, I really couldn't do more.

And lastly to yuma. L-5. Ugh this game is huge....

But that isn't the point, if that is correct, then I made a mistake in reading her post and now town is going to pay the consequences of it if I get lynched. Sorry.

Oh. Well. We certainly can't lynch you now then can we. Oh, please.

@yuma
Cayvie says "just a heads up, my role doesn't want to be on townie lynch wagons, so I'll refrain for voting unless I'm really sure". You reply by voting for her and asking for an explanation. It shouldn't come as a shock to you that people want to vote you for this. If you are town, you made a pretty serious mistake (which sadly often are the basis of f.Ds day 1 lynch wagons), and should at the very least be apologizing, not acting all surprised by our reaction.

I couldn't agree more. I'm fine with Cayvie's role not liking mislynch wagons. What could she possibly say to you? She can't quote her role. I think I'm actually gonna Vote: yuma. I'm OK with an O lynch too.

[Galzria]

Yuma, are scum voting for you right now?

[ashersky]

What I'm not getting from yuma's explanation is an unvote--if he's sorry and gets the misunderstanding, why keep his vote there?

Speaking of which, Unvote..

I'm still wondering about O.  Where's the O suspicion?  Dude's incognito.

[ftl]

Cayvie's supposed modifier seems neutral. Could be scum, could be town.

Clarifying cayvie's post for TheMunch, as I understood it, since nobody else has: cayvie "softclaimed" (hinted at, without stating outright) that she has some role that would cause it to be really bad for her if she lynched a townie, and so she'd refrain from being on lynch wagons until she was completely sure she was lynching scum. She hasn't divulged any more details besides "I have an extra reason not to be responsible for town lynches" and we should not press her for more details, since role info is more valuable to scum than town at the moment.

Yuma's certainly drawing more attention now than he ever has in mafia games I've been in with him. As scum, has he ever faced significant pressure, how did he react to that? Because I also remember him as scum never being suspected  and never having to defend himself against a "slip" in the first place.

He's right in that we DON'T want scum to be able to slip into D2 with no effort. O!!! Get in here. Talk. Do you think yuma is scummy? Do you think cayvie is scummy? And igbtennis is just not here yet. But O was. And he chose to leave without  anything more than a single vote and a half-sentence "meta" justification. AND IT'S FRIGGIN WORKING. THERE'S NO O WAGON. NOT OKAY.  (and ibgtennis too, but he just hasn't been here at all.)

Good lord, I'm using the same argument as Morgrim. Someone dayvig me now...

(preemptively - that was not serious Morgrim, if you're a dayvig don't kill me!)

Hmm, looking over shraeye and yuma wagons, there was nobody in common besides cayvie? And cayvie is listed first and so started At least looking at the last few votecounts. I don't know whether scum would be more likely to jump on the first or second wagon. Neither is more scummy, there was probably like one scum on each or something. 

[yuma]

Yuma, are scum voting for you right now?

I really don't know... I mean, probably one... but I can total see scum sitting back and being like "alright! yuma just screwed himself over, and now town is going to lynch him"

that is how I would have reacted--and did in nearly all the games where I was scum. (Galz in M3, ftl in M5). But there was always one on my team that joined the wagon. But I couldn't tell you who it might be. If you look at my stats, there hasn't been a single day 1 wagon that hasn't had scum on it. I am about to eat dinner, been making it while I post this, but I'll take a look at everyone on my wagon later...

PPE: ashersky you are right, I never did unvote, although I never did get exaclty what I was looking for... a clarification by cayvie as to what her post meant, but I guess that really isn't the point anymore now is it?

[Voltaire]

He's right in that we DON'T want scum to be able to slip into D2 with no effort. O!!! Get in here. Talk. Do you think yuma is scummy? Do you think cayvie is scummy? And igbtennis is just not here yet. But O was. And he chose to leave without  anything more than a single vote and a half-sentence "meta" justification. AND IT'S FRIGGIN WORKING. THERE'S NO O WAGON. NOT OKAY.  (and ibgtennis too, but he just hasn't been here at all.)

I have it, but I have yuma more, right now. Like Morgrim, though, I'm fine with either a yuma or O lynch (at this point - my only reason for suspecting O is the lurking). Same with tennis. But that's why I'm voting yuma - it's a reason more than lurking.

[Dsell]

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.

[yuma]

(edit: I think it is worth noting that this analysis isn't intended to be a defense or even necessarily a OMGUS--is that the right acronym for this?--but instead is a response to Galz's question of whether or not I think scum is on my wagon. It isn't intended to influence how people vote, my defense is already written--although I am willing to answer more questions about it--this is simply my thoughts if I do end up getting lynched about the early wagon that formed on me.)

right now the wagon on my consists of the following:

cayvie, Cuzz, Voltgloss, Eevee, Voltaire, shraeye, TheMunch, Morgrim

The difficult part about this is that if people really think that I was rolefishing then their votes on me are perfectly justifiable. So the question then becomes who out of these people actually think I was rolefishing.

cayvie, cuzz and voltgloss all voted for me before I ever had a chance to explain that I wasn't rolefishing and that I had misunderstood her post and was in need of clarification. Out of these three, volt knows me best and knows that isn't my playstyle.

eevee and voltaire voted before I was further able to clarify and explain my full rationale for my behavior. shraeye's post was after but only 4 seconds after, meaning my explanation wasn't read before he posted it...

The Munch voted for me not because of my behavior but because of some comments within my defense.

Morgrim seems to completely ignore my misunderstanding cayvie's post and my explanations. This is still Morgrim style behavior and so it doesn't surprise me, but still irks me.

So out of all the people currently voting for me: voltgloss, the munch and eevee are more suspicious. But honestly, everyone of them could easily be town because again, if they all think I was truly rolefishing, then their votes are justifiable.

[Voltaire]

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.

Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.

[Dsell]

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.

Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.

But even 1 scum on his wagon on D1 means that he's (very likely) not scum.

[Voltaire]

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.

Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.

But even 1 scum on his wagon on D1 means that he's (very likely) not scum.

I agree with you, yes. But that holds true of everyone but scum, and unless we wagon everyone, we won't be able to differentiate.

What I'm realizing is that lynching scum on D1 is a wonderful utopia - rarely, if ever, to be achieved. The realistic best-case town scenario is gaining information, and yuma (and shraeye)'s wagons have done a good job of that.

Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.

[Dsell]

Guys, yuma scum is way more subtle than this.

I really think I agree with this. The wagon on yuma grew scarily fast.

Did it? This game is huge. He's at L-7 (I could have missed some changes since the last vote count, but point stands, he's nowhere near a lynch). There's probably at least one scum on his wagon but I doubt they all piled on.

But even 1 scum on his wagon on D1 means that he's (very likely) not scum.

I agree with you, yes. But that holds true of everyone but scum, and unless we wagon everyone, we won't be able to differentiate.

What I'm realizing is that lynching scum on D1 is a wonderful utopia - rarely, if ever, to be achieved. The realistic best-case town scenario is gaining information, and yuma (and shraeye)'s wagons have done a good job of that.

Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.

I'm not arguing that what yuma did wasn't a bit out of line or at least could be perceived as rolefishing...I didn't catch that right away when I countered his post (I was one of the first to do so, but not with a vote) but looking back I could see opportunist scum there. But I'm not convinced, and when I'm not convinced I don't mind sitting back and looking at the state of the wagon. Rethinking, in a setup this size it actually would be really possible for scum to already be on the wagon, even if yuma is scum. However, I strongly doubt they would be driving the wagon on fellow scum. And at this point, some of the wagon drivers like Voltgloss look very nearly as bad as yuma himself.

[Cuzz]

We also should keep in mind the size of this game. With 25 players I'd be shocked if there weren't multiple scumteams.

[Voltaire]

I'm not arguing that what yuma did wasn't a bit out of line or at least could be perceived as rolefishing...I didn't catch that right away when I countered his post (I was one of the first to do so, but not with a vote) but looking back I could see opportunist scum there. But I'm not convinced, and when I'm not convinced I don't mind sitting back and looking at the state of the wagon. Rethinking, in a setup this size it actually would be really possible for scum to already be on the wagon, even if yuma is scum. However, I strongly doubt they would be driving the wagon on fellow scum. And at this point, some of the wagon drivers like Voltgloss look very nearly as bad as yuma himself.

Yup. With 25 participants, one scum team would likely mean 5-6 scum (22%, based on the standard 2/9 setup).

[Voltaire]

We also should keep in mind the size of this game. With 25 players I'd be shocked if there weren't multiple scumteams.

This too.

[yuma]

Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.

Ok.... these two words are being used a lot: blatant and obvious.

Why was it so blatant and so obvious? I didn't see it that way when I posted it and while I can see how people could interpret my post as such I would in no way characterize it as either blatant or obvious.

[Cuzz]

Though I still stand by my opinion of blatant, obvious rolefishing by yuma.

Ok.... these two words are being used a lot: blatant and obvious.

Why was it so blatant and so obvious? I didn't see it that way when I posted it and while I can see how people could interpret my post as such I would in no way characterize it as either blatant or obvious.

I just think that for a lot of people, cayvie's post obviously referred to some power. You then immediately asked for more information about that post. So it was obvious rolefishing unless you truly did not consider that her post involved her role. And it seems like many of us find that hard to believe.

[Voltaire]

@yuma

for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.

It's the bold part. I have no issues with your vote against her in the first place. What I wanted to avoid was cayvie doing exactly what you asked her to - explaining in detail what her comment made. Clearly she was revealing she had some sort of a role - it's bad for town to claim this early - and I didn't really like the move. From my point of view, it was her claiming something a bit too "hard" to be a "soft"claim. That's what I meant when I said "shhhhhhhhhhh Eevee" and meant "shhhhhhhhhhhh cayvie" - I meant "don't explain what it means in more depth."

And that's exactly what you asked her to do.

[Eevee]

Unvote actually. This is probably just the kind of "scum slip" that's actually just a mistake (it really looked like rolefishing yuma, even if it wasn't intentional). But, as I said in my ~first post of this game, we mislynch people over mistakes like this all the time. I think yuma responded to the pressure okay in the end.

I still consider what yuma did scummy, but I'm leaning towards it just being a mistake rather than a.. visible sign of scumminess from a scum player?

[yuma]

@yuma

for me: cayvie is normally so clear and specific in her writing... she has a focus and communicates it well. that is what she is known for by me. This is vague and confusing and is atypical for her. Really I have no idea what she is trying to communicate. If she can explain what it means in more depth I would consider removing my vote.

It's the bold part. I have no issues with your vote against her in the first place. What I wanted to avoid was cayvie doing exactly what you asked her to - explaining in detail what her comment made. Clearly she was revealing she had some sort of a role - it's bad for town to claim this early - and I didn't really like the move. From my point of view, it was her claiming something a bit too "hard" to be a "soft"claim. That's what I meant when I said "shhhhhhhhhhh Eevee" and meant "shhhhhhhhhhhh cayvie" - I meant "don't explain what it means in more depth."

And that's exactly what you asked her to do.

I didn't ask her to reveal anything--and again, I didn't read her post as saying that she wouldn't reveal anything! look at my post that you quoted where I say "I have no idea what she is trying to communicate" and then ask her to "explain it more in detail." I think here, the "it" is the problem; I am thinking that people viewed the word of "it" as "your role that you mention" whereas for me "it" meant "your entire post, which I didn't understand, and which I think might have been a post that was accidentally posted and possibly something else"

My vote for cayvie wasn't ever because she as revealing a little bit about her role. It was that I found her post to potentially be a partial post that was partially edited and accidentally posted.