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[cayvie]

I'm kind of curious whether people count me as being on the Grujah wagon or not.

[ftl]

I'd say you count, since grujah voted for you and since you listed him as primary before the soft deadline I think.

[yuma]

I'm kind of curious whether people count me as being on the Grujah wagon or not.

I consider you somewhere in the middle. You are unique! I understand that you have a stated reason for not voting, but do understand that this reason has not been proven to the rest of us. You aren't on the wagon, neither are you off the wagon. You are in limbo!

[ftl]

OK, vote patterns of the people who didn't vote for Grujah

Insomniac: Voted for ibg and voltaire. Both pretty early.
Voltgloss/sparky: voltgloss votes for yuma and O and ibgtenns and ehalcyon ... and then replaces out before we get to find out whether his sequence of wagons would have touched gruj. Sparky replaces in and votes morgrim.
Young_Nick: misses the first week or so. Votes cayvie, axxle.
Voltaire: votes O, ibg, yuma, Captain_Frisk, ashersky, jotheonah.
shraeye: votes yuma, O (a lot), Morgrim,
igbtennis: votes ftl and ehunt
TheMunch: votes  ashersky, ehunt, glooble, O, yuma, captain_frisk, eHalcyon, watno
 Captain_Frisk: votes theMunch, shraeye, O,
 ashersky: votes Robz, Galz, shraeye, O, yuma, Frisk, insom,
Dsell: votes joth, morgrim, axxle, galzria


FoS at the people who seemed to be on a whole bunch of wagons, but managed to never vote Grujah. That would be munch, ashersky, voltaire.

I should really reread some of those people's posts instead of skimming for votes but man, there's just so many. I'll reread Munch first, I think.

[ftl]

dangit it's later than I thought I won't have time to do a munch reread until later tonight

[Galzria]

Alright people, help me out:

Yesterday I had an item: I bore the Cup of Wine in front of Robz. The Cup works as follows:

At some point during the day, I had to PM Robz the name of a player with whom I wished to share the Wine. Failure to do so resulted in Modkill. During the night, that player and I would each be given the choice to drink from the cup - or not.

If we both made the same choice, our Role Descriptions would be shared with one another. If we choose differently, nothing would happen. Regardless of our choices, the Cup would be passed into the possession of the other person.

I'm not yet going to reveal whom I choose, but my concern is thus: If it gets passed, in the future, into the hands of scum, they can simply pass it amongst themselves and never risk revealing their description to a townie. Obviously it's in our best interest then to force the issue, so that if a player who once held it ever flips scum, we can trace it to the people associated with him (who he gave it to, who gave it to him etc).

But I'm not sure the best way to go about this. Making public where it is at any given time is all fine and dandy until it arrives in the hands of scum. See, the person to whom I presented was informed that it was I doing the presenting before he choose to drink. So if he were scum, he could've killed me and hidden the existence of the wine. In the future, the same dilemma may exist.

If we make the current owner at any given time announce their target before the day ends, it's good money the target will wake up dead, taking the cup to their grave - along with any information they may have. I'm revealing this today, instead of yesterday, in case there is some sort of day-kill power that didn't want the item in circulation (I actually doubt that role exists, but I wanted to be safe). It's for this reason that I'm not yet revealing who I gave the cup to.

However, I will say that the fact that I didn't die during the night, and the fact that the recipient choose to drink the wine (I did not) both suggest that this player is town to me. The second reasoning is a little weaker than the first, but I didn't expect scum to drink the wine, in case it had "extra" effects.

Also in this query then is should we agree to a standard policy of drink/don't drink, and those breaking policy should be lynched?

How does everybody feel the best way to handle this is? It's a great investigative tool for town, but we need to (I think) keep track of it somehow to put it to maximum effect. Thoughts?

[shraeye]

Obviously [jotheonah] was a bit facetious with his comments, but cut him some slack.

Also, I think Glooble was targeted and O was the lover-death. I say this because Glooble was listed before O was. Then again, the three kills were all down alphabetically, so that could be how Robz intended to order it. It may not be much to go on, but it is something.

I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1. Especially when there's a town this big, we've got to have a whole bunch of them. Still, I would expect that there's more scum off the wagon than on it, so we should start by scumhunting there and then find the bussing mafia later.

Nightkills - mafia would kill someone from the wagon. Of the people who died, eevee and glooble were on the grujah wagon, O was not.  I'd guess mafia kill either eevee or glooble; if O was targeted then that was probably a vig kill. So we probably have either two scumteams (well, maybe just mafia+sk) and no vig, or just mafia and vig. With this many potential targets, I would really doubt that we had kill-collision, so I think there's only 2 nightkills going around. 

Cool, I came back from a hectic day at work wondering what responses another does of angry-shraeye would bring me.  YoungNick and ftl, you have both managed to talk sense to me.  The reason I change probably to definitely is because I don't recall joth talking much in extremes, and I virtually always talk in extremes.  So joth's probably is my definitely, and his definitely would be my most-definitely.  Despite him saying "probably" he really felt like he was trying very hard to direct attention away from the wagon.  But ftl's argument is exactly what was going through my mind.  I got angry that it felt like joth was trying to give the entire wagon a pass, which made no sense to me because as scum you couldn't let an obvious wagon on your partner be filled up with only town members.  So I can agree with ftl's explanation that while bussing mafia (or competing factions, which I still think is a possibility) is a possibility, that there's probably more scum off the wagon than on it.

[1]I agree with jo that looking off-wagon is better, and I find the people who immediately jumped on him for that statement to be rather scummy for it.  sparky looks a little more townie to me from #1524. 
...
[2]Some bad vibes from shraeye as well.  I remember having some misgivings about him early day 1, though they faded away over time.  They're back again though.  As sparky points out, shraeye is very much misrepresenting jo.  His post #1512 does not at all say "definitely no scum on the wagon".  He explicitly notes that "not all are clear".  It's weird how he jumps at the possibility of "a whole heap of non-mafia scum" -- scum is scum, town doesn't care whether they are mafia or otherwise, and those on the wagon absolutely have more town cred than those who were not.  Finally, shraeye's concern over being a Morgrim-pusher smells fishy, like panicked scum.
...
[3]Re: Axxle's 1531, I don't see how we ever called O a good vig-target.  Morgrim was the one.

I think more likely is that Glooble was shot, either by a vig or by scum trying to hit other scum.  Gloob was a lurker, after all.
...
[4]I don't think there is any evidence of multiple scum teams right now.  It looks like there were two shots fired (since O and Gloob are connected), and the second death could be vig or SK, not necessarily another team.

[1]Here's a post which I feel like breaking down more.  An argument that the case on joth is misguided just sounds really bad to me when it's worded like this.  You can cast suspicion on me for my vote if you want, but this sounded initially to me like more of a warning to people who may be considering my argument as valid.  A bit like "you better not vote for this unless you're sure, because I promise I'll find you scummy if you do."  Before we end up in a 3-page long "mischaracterization" argument, I'm saying that's how it feels to me when I read something like that.  No mischaracterization of my feelings at all, promise.

[2]love that this is the second time someone has said I looked panicked.  Y'all flatter me; truth is, I've got no human emotions. (Protip: that's not the truth)

response [3] and [4] are going to be in my next post, so that people can read them solo, instead of tying them in with these other, less serious points.

[shraeye]

[3]Re: Axxle's 1531, I don't see how we ever called O a good vig-target.  Morgrim was the one.

I think more likely is that Glooble was shot, either by a vig or by scum trying to hit other scum.  Gloob was a lurker, after all.
...
[4]I don't think there is any evidence of multiple scum teams right now.  It looks like there were two shots fired (since O and Gloob are connected), and the second death could be vig or SK, not necessarily another team.

[3]  Like a few others (forget names, but I think ehunt and joth plus maybe others?) I agree that glooble was a more likely than an O kill.  I'm not sure if whether this was a vig kill or not even changes that.  Glooble was lurking even worse that O was, despite O being the at the center of the beginnings of our lurker argument.  There were many town reads on O by the end of things, including a slight town read from me.  I'm not sure as a vig that would have been a smart play.  And as for the mafia kill, it is very likely that it was directed at someone on the grujah wagon, and O wasn't there.

[4]The evidence that I see is Eevee's "semi-naive" role.  I think that it's likely that only two kills were successful and that O or Glooble died via their connection only.  It is possible that all three deaths were natural instead of lover-related.  Also powerrole-type protection may have randomly succeeded.  But I think that it's very likely in a town this large for one scum faction to decide not to use a kill.  I know that's not a common mafia tactic, but it certainly would confuse a town and send some of us looking in the wrong direction.  Like if there had been 4 kills last night, we would be much more sure of multiple factions existing and would suspect scum on the grujah wagon who weren't even bussing (as I do).  But if there's only a few kills, people suspect only one faction, and this will give most people on the wagon some serious points as town (but not free passes obviously).  I suspect that the true number of factions will definitely be known by day 3, as it would be clever-beyond-the-point-of-strategic mafia play to not NK twice in a row.

[shraeye]

Oh and two other things.
unvote

and sorry Galz for quickly burying something which I only glanced at but seems super important.  Everybody go read #1555.

[cayvie]

I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1.

I just want to point out, this argument is terrible.

If all the scum avoid the lynch wagon, that does not magically clear those on the wagon.

[Axxle]

I bet there's scum on the Grujah wagon, I don't think scum can let half the town be cleared right after day 1.

I just want to point out, this argument is terrible.

If all the scum avoid the lynch wagon, that does not magically clear those on the wagon.

Clearly ftl felt he had to bus his partner because he didn't want to clear half the town.

[Dsell]

Alright people, help me out:

Yesterday I had an item: I bore the Cup of Wine in front of Robz. The Cup works as follows:

At some point during the day, I had to PM Robz the name of a player with whom I wished to share the Wine. Failure to do so resulted in Modkill. During the night, that player and I would each be given the choice to drink from the cup - or not.

If we both made the same choice, our Role Descriptions would be shared with one another. If we choose differently, nothing would happen. Regardless of our choices, the Cup would be passed into the possession of the other person.

I'm not yet going to reveal whom I choose, but my concern is thus: If it gets passed, in the future, into the hands of scum, they can simply pass it amongst themselves and never risk revealing their description to a townie. Obviously it's in our best interest then to force the issue, so that if a player who once held it ever flips scum, we can trace it to the people associated with him (who he gave it to, who gave it to him etc).

But I'm not sure the best way to go about this. Making public where it is at any given time is all fine and dandy until it arrives in the hands of scum. See, the person to whom I presented was informed that it was I doing the presenting before he choose to drink. So if he were scum, he could've killed me and hidden the existence of the wine. In the future, the same dilemma may exist.

If we make the current owner at any given time announce their target before the day ends, it's good money the target will wake up dead, taking the cup to their grave - along with any information they may have. I'm revealing this today, instead of yesterday, in case there is some sort of day-kill power that didn't want the item in circulation (I actually doubt that role exists, but I wanted to be safe). It's for this reason that I'm not yet revealing who I gave the cup to.

However, I will say that the fact that I didn't die during the night, and the fact that the recipient choose to drink the wine (I did not) both suggest that this player is town to me. The second reasoning is a little weaker than the first, but I didn't expect scum to drink the wine, in case it had "extra" effects.

Also in this query then is should we agree to a standard policy of drink/don't drink, and those breaking policy should be lynched?

How does everybody feel the best way to handle this is? It's a great investigative tool for town, but we need to (I think) keep track of it somehow to put it to maximum effect. Thoughts?

This could be a really powerful tool for the town. Your ideas sound about it sound really good and, if you're telling the truth (and it would be a stupid thing to lie about), the fact that you're revealing this seems very pro-town.

Do you know if Robz put any conditions on it? For example, if we decide that we all will or won't drink, does the wine run out at some point?

I like the idea of announcing the target or having a standard way of choosing, but it seems like that could be disrupted by the mafia. If they know who is getting the WIFOM, wouldn't they just kill that person to make the wine leave forever?

So maybe it should be a secret? But I could see ways of maximizing its effectiveness. Such as, the person who currently has the wine announces that they have the wine, and they clear/incriminate themselves and the person who had it the night before, but do NOT announce their target. That gives incentive for the mafia to NOT kill the now-confirmed townies, but aim for the target of the wine. Who knows how long that would last until scum hit right or it goes into the hands of scum, but it could buy us some confirmed townies/a hit on scum. If they try to pass it amongst themselves, once we hit one, we hit them all (as long as they announce).

This is one of those things that seems like a clear choice, but I feel like the whole town (including the person who has the wine) should decide in case there's some pitfall I'm not seeing.

[cayvie]

Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?

And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?

[Dsell]

Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?

And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?

Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.

[yuma]

Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?

And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?

Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.

I'll drink to that!

This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!

[TheMunch]

I mean, I'm all for conflicting opinions. I specifically said the wagon wasn't clear. You all are free to direct your hunting however you want, and to let me know why you think scum is on the wagon.

Here's my reasoning: In a very large town, getting close to deadline, why bus when there's a chance we could hit no lynch?  But now that I think about it, that was a bit premature. If I were scum and saw 11 or 12 votes I might read the writing on the wall and hop on the Gru wagon. I do think the people who really pushed it into viable territory, Galz for instance, look pretty clear. And I do suspect the Morg wagon a little more than everyone else.

I wish I had more time for this game today, unfortunately I have a job interview. I'll check in later this afternoon.

But man guys, there is so much content from yesterday, it seems like there ought to be a smoking gun.

This is sufficient enough to make me happy.  Unvote.  I'm not going to immediately give towncred to everyone on the wagon as I could be easily convinced of the multiple scum team argument (I like to account for all possibilities) at least for the sake thoroughness.  However, I feel this is sufficient enough of a reason to argue for looking off wagon.

[Galzria]

Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?

And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?

Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.

I'll drink to that!

This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!

Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.



@Dsell, it does not run out as far as I'm aware. Robz said he took me to the cellar and cracked a fresh cask of his finest - so it should flow plentiful.

[yuma]

Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?

And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?

Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.

I'll drink to that!

This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!

Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.



@Dsell, it does not run out as far as I'm aware. Robz said he took me to the cellar and cracked a fresh cask of his finest - so it should flow plentiful.

speaking of ehunt, I wonder if the wine was the object that he didn't want to get because it would go out of the game? Perhaps because he would drink all of it?  If so.... good one Robz.

[cayvie]

Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.

oh god damn it.

that's probably a real thing in this game.

[TheMunch]

On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic.  I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe.  Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup?  I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.

PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this.  so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?

[Dsell]

speaking of ehunt, I wonder if the wine was the object that he didn't want to get because it would go out of the game? Perhaps because he would drink all of it?  If so.... good one Robz.

Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.

oh god damn it.

that's probably a real thing in this game.

Oh that's too funny!

[Dsell]

On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic.  I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe.  Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup?  I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.

PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this.  so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?

In MVI, ehunt got drunk with his kickball team and posted several dozen times in a row. It was HILARIOUS and that's gotta be what Robz is referencing. He'll drink all the wine!

[TheMunch]

On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic.  I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe.  Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup?  I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.

PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this.  so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?

In MVI, ehunt got drunk with his kickball team and posted several dozen times in a row. It was HILARIOUS and that's gotta be what Robz is referencing. He'll drink all the wine!

Aww ok, I was kinda hoping for a bigger conspiracy theory but I guess Occam's razor strikes again!

[Galzria]

Also, I mean, we should agree to always drink if given the option, right?

And anyone who doesn't is obvscum?

Well we should all agree to either drink or not drink. Drinking sounds good to me.

I'll drink to that!

This is a Masquerade party... wouldn't be complete without some drinking. Huzzah!

Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.



@Dsell, it does not run out as far as I'm aware. Robz said he took me to the cellar and cracked a fresh cask of his finest - so it should flow plentiful.

speaking of ehunt, I wonder if the wine was the object that he didn't want to get because it would go out of the game? Perhaps because he would drink all of it?  If so.... good one Robz.

Just keep it out of the reach of eHunt.

oh god damn it.

that's probably a real thing in this game.

>.>

I had forgotten he had said that. I was simply referencing the hilarity of M-VI, but I think there's a solid chance this is the case.

This will make tracking who has it all the more important, because as he says, "Anybody who gives it to him should instantly be viewed as obvscum" - thus it's important that we always know where it's going - or at least where it came from.

[Dsell]

On the topic of Galz post, This WIFOM is an interesting topic.  I have one open question; ehunt said a while ago that he doesn't want people to give him items, I believe.  Does anyone think this has any relation to the specific WIFOM cup?  I can think of a few interesting interactions but more than likelysomething I am overthinking a lot since something like this is a little out of my comfort zone as a new player.

PPE apparently this has already been brought up in the time that I was typing this.  so Cayvie, what do you mean by god damn it? Why does that necessarily throw a cog in the galz plan?

In MVI, ehunt got drunk with his kickball team and posted several dozen times in a row. It was HILARIOUS and that's gotta be what Robz is referencing. He'll drink all the wine!

Aww ok, I was kinda hoping for a bigger conspiracy theory but I guess Occam's razor strikes again!

You can read it here if you want a laugh.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3074.2650