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[TheMunch]

Also, Unvote, Vote: eHalcyon

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.

How about this.  We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to.  Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?

[Captain_Frisk]

That should say majority is hard....

[Galzria]

Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.

How about this.  We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to.  Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?

Bad idea is bad, and you should feel bad.

Really, I know getting a Majority is going to suck, but I'm not giving Dayvig to someone of unknown alignment, no matter how much I trust them. And this idea removes all accountability that makes any lynch worthwhile.

[ashersky]

So, what commentary I can add on the fly...

I think on the eHalc vs. Munch thing, I lean toward eHal.  I've only played one game with him previously, and he was literally a robot, so didn't get much of a pre-read coming into this, but he seems sane and town to me so far.  So as far as a read of the argument itself, and not the content of the argument, eHalc seems ahead.

Yuma's reasoning is believable.

Welcome to the ride, Nick.

Am I voting for Frisk?  I think I am.  I should be.  He's been testy, which to me is scummy Frisk as opposed to town Frisk.  Then again, I don't even know town Frisk, since he was scum in MX and ZM2.  Also, rushing the vote into a random lynch is scummy and/or anti-town, I think, regardless of our luck in ZM2.

[Dsell]

Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.

How about this.  We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to.  Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?

This is TERRIBLE. This is really terrible. Like...what the heck? And take away the only really good thing that comes from D1? (The lynch wagon)

[Voltaire]

...and I am CAUGHT UP!

Here goes. Cayvie, if you have similar notes to share, go for it.

So I've taken notes on the stuff I consider important for the entire thread. From this, I can generate several different categories.

First up, here's the rankings by what I consider "informational posts" (obviously subjective):

eHalc/jotheonah
ehunt
Munch/yuma
Dsell/cayvie/shraeye
Glooble/Eevee/Galzria
Morgrim/ftl/Voltgloss
ashersky/O
Cuzz/Insomniac/Axxle
Grujah
Captain_Frisk/ibgtennis

Under this kind of analysis, it's Frisk, tennis, and Grujah who stick out like sore thumbs. And of them, I am extremely comfortable with a Vote: Captain_Frisk. He's contributed almost nothing, and his one big idea is a terrible, terrible dayvig system (like Galzria pointed out). This is exactly how scumFrisk plays. I am quite happy with this vote.

Other observations:

Morgrim - he has not had a unique idea or read this whole time, as far as I can tell. He just seems to be echoing someone from an argument several pages earlier. Also, not playing like Morgrim at all. OK with a lynch here.
jotheonah - has been willing to vote for pretty much everyone, but the arguments he supports don't seem to have that much merit to me. Consider this a FoS.
Axxle - too little content. Also, cat's out of the bag that he seems to be a doublevoter. Unsure what to make of that.
ftl - very helpful early, not much anymore. Though did he say he'd be away for a bit?
Watno - probably the scummiest of the non-lurkers. I agree with shraeye's points about him.

I have reasonably strong town reads on the following: TheMunch, yuma (his explanations make sense and I don't see anything scummy in his reaction on a re-read), shraeye, Eevee, eHalc, ehunt, Galzria.

Everyone else falls somewhere into "no read" or "no strong read."

[Dsell]

So, what commentary I can add on the fly...

I think on the eHalc vs. Munch thing, I lean toward eHal.  I've only played one game with him previously, and he was literally a robot, so didn't get much of a pre-read coming into this, but he seems sane and town to me so far.  So as far as a read of the argument itself, and not the content of the argument, eHalc seems ahead.

Yuma's reasoning is believable.

Welcome to the ride, Nick.

Am I voting for Frisk?  I think I am.  I should be.  He's been testy, which to me is scummy Frisk as opposed to town Frisk.  Then again, I don't even know town Frisk, since he was scum in MX and ZM2.  Also, rushing the vote into a random lynch is scummy and/or anti-town, I think, regardless of our luck in ZM2.

In VI, eHal was really helpful too. Like, he was the most pro-town person there on D1 but he was mafia. That doesn't say much about him here since he's good as a townie too, but looking townie doesn't make someone town. In some cases it's even easier for mafia to be measuredly cool under pressure or in an argument because townies have the frustration of not knowing anything.

I find it hard to read much into Frisk right now. He's had so many games as mafia in a row, it'd be easy to be strained, even if he is town here. He'd be out of practice!

Thanks for commenting, Ashersky.

[cayvie]

Voltaire, where does Watno fit in your ranking? (obviously young nick isn't there, and you don't include yourself)
He's the only one I see missing from the list at the top.

My top 3 least informational were Axxle, Watno, and Grujah.

[yuma]

Morgrim - he has not had a unique idea or read this whole time, as far as I can tell. He just seems to be echoing someone from an argument several pages earlier. Also, not playing like Morgrim at all. OK with a lynch here.

Morgrim always plays this way, in his own words from MIX this is why:

Why do I never have unique info to add? I let you guys do the hard thinking, and choose which case is better. But is someone really jumps out to me as scum, I'll vote for that person.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, where does Watno fit in your ranking? (obviously young nick isn't there, and you don't include yourself)
He's the only one I see missing from the list at the top.

My top 3 least informational were Axxle, Watno, and Grujah.

Thanks, I figured I'd miss someone. Watno is in the lower middle. I did score myself, btw. I'm in the upper-middle (but ymmv).

Here's the corrected list:

eHalc/jotheonah
ehunt
Munch/yuma
Dsell/cayvie/shraeye/Voltaire
Glooble/Eevee/Galzria
Morgrim/ftl/Voltgloss/Watno
ashersky/O
Cuzz/Insomniac/Axxle
Grujah
Captain_Frisk/ibgtennis

[yuma]

Found this interesting situation on mafiawiki

It is possible for a Doublevoter to simultaneously hammer two wagons under very specific conditions. What the moderator does in this scenario is not standardized simply because it's not a commonly plied strategy - if you're interested, contact your moderator to ask how they would handle such an occurrence.

Probably won't happen, but it would be totally epic if it did... automatic MVP

[Galzria]

Found this interesting situation on mafiawiki

It is possible for a Doublevoter to simultaneously hammer two wagons under very specific conditions. What the moderator does in this scenario is not standardized simply because it's not a commonly plied strategy - if you're interested, contact your moderator to ask how they would handle such an occurrence.

Probably won't happen, but it would be totally epic if it did... automatic MVP

I don't think he can split his vote. It appears to be automatic "your vote counts twice". But that's just observation and may be wrong.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - so we all agree that no lynch is bad right - but plurality is hard.

How about this.  We rank everyone from 1 to 20 whatever, in order of who you would be willing to give your vote to.  Whoever gets the most points decides who lynch, and the rest of us go along with it?

Bad idea is bad, and you should feel bad.

Really, I know getting a Majority is going to suck, but I'm not giving Dayvig to someone of unknown alignment, no matter how much I trust them. And this idea removes all accountability that makes any lynch worthwhile.

I don't feel bad.  It's going to be damn near impossible for someone to do something so scummy that we end up with a majority lynch.  (Maybe I just did it - who knows)

We'd end up with a bunch of information
- those for / against the day vig
- information from the dayvigger
- the feelings / reactions from everyone as we vote for the selector

Uncomfortable with a single all powerful day vigger?

Give the top 7 people in "comfortable voters" a vote - and then we go with the majority from there - we still end up with a wagon + all of the above

Oh - and Voltaire - Frisk hunting is the new Morgrim hunting.  Didn't you hear?

[yuma]

It appears no one has noticed my suggestion for trying to get around the plurality?

And lastly, I have a suggestion on how to handle our time as we get closer to the deadline. I would like feedback as this could have both positive and negative repercussions that I haven't completely hashed out yet.

1. We set a soft deadline (Perhaps this upcoming Wednesday, midnight forum time?)
2. We treat that deadline as a hard deadline in that immediately after that deadline a vote count (either official or unofficial is good) is established.
3. From that point onward we treat the rest of Day 1 as if a no-lynch and a night w/o kills occurred.
4. This will allow us to look back on voting patterns from a deadline point of view and also be able to speculate and become more suspicious of people who may have caused us to "no-lynch"
5. From there work further on the wagons that existed at our soft deadline and potentially form new wagons on those who did not help the town move toward a lynch.

I think this plan is good because I believe a lynch to be better than a no lynch. (Of course I do also believe that a player should not vote for someone on whom he has a very very strong town read on) but that is a poor town excuse (because someone with a super strong town read Day 1 is rare) or is a scum excuse (see O in MVIII).

thoughts?

[Glooble]

Can't say why I trust O as much as I do. I was his scum buddy in... MIV? I don't remember which game, but as scum he was much more flippant and kind of erratic. This terse, no-nonsense day one is town O. I don't necessarily agree with it, but its consistent. Sorry I can't explain it any better.

I could get behind this Frisk wagon. That suggestion was... really awful.

Ok, bed now. I won't be on again until I get home from work tomorrow at like four. If it still looks relevant, I'll try and get some thoughts up on the last 13 people.

[Glooble]

Oh yeah, yuma's idea. I like it in theory, but I'm not sure it will pan out. Some townies are resistant to people trying to "control the town" which it might be seen as. I'd go along with a soft deadline, though.

[Young Nick]

Y'all are unhelpful as hell. Gimme the summary. Good luck getting to majority when multiple (if I am reading correctly) are still struggling to even read all of the posts, let alone have thoughts on them.

Where is timchen?

[yuma]

Y'all are unhelpful as hell. Gimme the summary. Good luck getting to majority when multiple (if I am reading correctly) are still struggling to even read all of the posts, let alone have thoughts on them.

Where is timchen?

There was a wagon on Dsell for Morgrim hunting, but mostly RVS

Someone--it appears to be Axxle has a double (likely secret vote)

There was a wagon on ehunt I think the first post was jot? at post 322

There was a wagon on shraeye starting post 315

There was a wagon on me starting post 489

Scattered throughout there have been multiple votes to prod people into activity including, but not limited to: O, ibgtennis, Glooble, Grujah, Frisk and more.

There have been semi-wagons on O (scattered), eHal post 909 and a newer one on shraeye again...

[ftl]

Stuff that happened, in no particular order:

There was a bunch of argument about whether lynching lurkers is a good idea and some votes on lurkers, with Galz, me, O, joth, and others involved.
O pissed off a bunch of people and some people voted for him.
ehunt talked about theory stuff and made long posts once a day.
There were wagons on shraeye and yuma based on "scumslips".
If you want to know exactly who was on those wagons, search for Robz's posts and vote counts. [PPE: Or, yuma's links.]

The town has a doublevoter and probably a cult (according to eevee). Cayvie and ehunt claimed minor role stuff (cayvie doesn't want to be on a town lynch wagon for role reasons, ehunt doesn't want someone to give him some item).

...ok, that's what I remember.

Soft deadline seems reasonable.

[ehunt]

frisk, i can't support your plan. I think it's dangerous to create ranked lists of people whom we think are town. (PPE: I wasn't going to mention this since I'd hoped my post about the item got buried, but ftl just re-referenced it and it was stupid to think scum didn't notice it anyway. The person I think is towniest by a longshot is the person I think has the item, and basically I'd either have to expose that person or lie if i were to follow your plan; either is bad.) I would be happy to say the ten people I find the most likely to be town in alphabetical order, or something, but not to rank them. Anyway, sounds like nobody's behind the plan but you for now.

to everyone else, i disagree with the frisk-plan but i don't think it's scummy that he proposed it. this is how i feel in general when people publicly propose things like massclaims or weird town-strategies. i find it farfetched that scum would deliberately calculate a bad strategy for the town, then try to sell it really hard to the town as a good strategy for the town. you have to believe that all your opponents are sheep to do that. it's far more likely that when someone proposes a bad strategy, they genuinely think it's a good strategy, than that they genuinely think that it's a bad strategy that they can somehow convince many many people is a good strategy.

[Voltaire]

I could get behind this Frisk wagon. That suggestion was... really awful.

A Frisk wagon, if one happens, in my mind should mostly not be about the suggestion. It should be about how he has contributed virtually 0 useful posts, and one of his "useful" posts is a terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad idea.

@Yuma - I did read your idea about a soft deadline, but it just seems so impossible to enfore/get everyone to respect that I don't know if it would really be possible to pull off.

@YoungNick - seeing as I just took notes on the whole thing, here's my attempt. Others, feel free to add/correct as necessary, this is certainly slightly out of order:

• There was talk about the meta of Robz picking people's roles
• ehunt says we shouldn't reveal our cards
• People give their meta reads of everyone, others question if that's useful
• Dsell half-heartedly tried to policy-lynch Morgrim, a wagon formed on Dsell briefly
• There's a giant discussion about "acti-lurking"
• eHunt says we should only post once a day, a wagon forms on him briefly
• a wagon forms on shraeye, I think for abrasive posts? No, it was a sarcastic comment some saw as a scumslip
• We debate if we should lynch lurkers - Galz is the biggest champion of this
• TheMunch edits a post, at C_F's request he makes his avatar the Cheater from something
• cayvie says it's bad for her to be on a wagon
• Yuma asks why, a wagon forms on him for rolefishing
• It's pretty clear Axxle is a double-voter
• eHunt says nobody should give him a certain item
• Eevee reveals mod-confirmed info there is a faction that can recruit
• A wagon builds to policy-lynch O for lurking
• The tone turns nasty for a bit, then everyone apologizes and moves on

There's obviously tons I'm leaving out, it's 38 pages, but that's kinda an outline?

[Captain_Frisk]

Soft deadline then?  When?

[ehunt]

but ftl just re-referenced it and it was stupid to think scum didn't notice it anyway.

to clarify, stupid here means "stupid of me," not "stupid of ftl" (or anyone else)

[ehunt]

Soft deadline then?  When?

I don't mind yuma's proposal of next Wednesday night. I imagine the usual suspects are going to pretty much ignore it though.

Frisk, please say stuff about how you feel about the wagons and the people and stuff.

Does everyone think my case on Voltaire is bad? I notice it didn't make it into any of the summaries.