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[jotheonah]

...when I think back to the most entertaining games over the long haul, some of them were a bit wild. I mean, for me personally, some highlights were: Joetheonah's Deep Space Nine (Mafia 19, I think?)...

Welcome to RMM52: Deep Space Nine Mafia Redux

Mod: jotheonah

Since there are currently no active sign-up threads other than poor stalled out Cryptography mafia, I decided to go ahead and post this. It will not start before RMM51 concludes.

This is an open game for 18 players. It will be a tweaked and rebalanced version of Mafia XIX, which you can read here. Note this was previously run as a closed setup, but this time it will be open (Plz don't break the game). Some more information will be provided in the next post.

Players:
1. Jimmmmm Kira Nerys, 1-shot Vigilante
2. UmbrageOfSnow ADK Miles O'Brien, Mirror Universe Cop
3. LaLight EFHW Worf, Maquis Cop
4. DatSwan Julian Bashir, Even-Night Changeling Cop and 1-shot Doctor
5. mcmcsalot Benjamin Sisko, Roleblocker
6. Glooble Odo, Flavor/Role Cop
7. WestCoastDidds, Dax, 1-shot Deathproof
8. SpaceAnemone, Kai Winn, Double Voter
9. Shraeye, Bariel Antos, Universal Backup
10. MiX, Morn, Loved Serial Killer
11. faust Quark, Neighbor
12. ashersky, Garak, Busdriver/Lightning Rod
13. 2.71828..... General Martok, Bomb
14. Robz888 Jake Sisko, Innocent Child
15. Awaclus Rom, Neighbor
16. Uncleeurope Gul Dukat, Godfather
17. raerae Kasidy Yates, 1-shot Commuter
18. chickenwarlord Nog, Neighbor

Day starts:

Day 1 start
Day 2 start
Day 3 start
Day 4 start
Day 5 start
Day 6 start

Spectators tagged:

mail-mi

General rules

Changes to the usual rule sets are marked in navy.

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game. Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play. Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote information (either real or fabricated) from any game-related source other than the thread you are posting in. This means no quotes from PMs and no quotes from QTs in the main thread or in another QT. Paraphrasing is acceptable. If you are unsure whether a post is legal, please ask the moderator before posting.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings and the QTs specifically designed for this purpose.
3. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 12 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. Day phases will last 7 days, Night lasts at least 48 hours. Night action deadline is 36 hours after night start.
2. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
3. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
4. Once a player is lynched, the game enters twilight until the mod locks the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
5. If the deadline is hit without a player reaching the majority of votes, the vote is treated as a No Lynch
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes in another format may or may not be counted. This is up to the mod's discretion. Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
10. Any time you are dead (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in shared Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
11. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, navy blue text is reserved for the mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please discuss this in your role QT.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players may be issued after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 24 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under without further notice. Players with announced VLA are exempt from this rule the first time it happens.
6. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging. Players who fail to post for 48 hours without an announcement risk being subject to replacement and/or being modkilled without further notice.
7. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game. Do not discuss this game in any thread that is not directly related to it.
8. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a post in the role QT. Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request). Requests to /out are final once submitted. There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. Whether your request to /out will lead to replacement or a modkill is up to the mod's discretion.

[jotheonah]

Setup

As mentioned above, this will be a tweaked re-run of my Deep Space Nine mafia game with an open rather than closed setup. I only ran the original game as closed out of an abundance of caution.

The inspiration for this game was that I was trying to think of a way to have heavily-flavored games without having flavor connected in any way to alignment (although there are ultimately some exceptions).

It might turn out to be a hard sell to get 18 people to sign up for multiball. If that's the case, I might rejigger the setup to be played with fewer folks.

You're on Deep Space Nine, just before the start of the Dominion War. At a busy port on the wild frontier of space, it's hard to keep track of all the comings and goings. Despite Odo's best efforts, a string of sabotages on the station have made it clear that someone on board is not what they seem to be.

It's possible that some crewmembers have secretly defected and joined the Maquis, a terrorist group within the Federation. It's also possible that a few crewmembers have been replaced by their mirror universe duplicates - you'd never know the difference if they shaved their goatee. And of course, there's the constant threat of changeling infiltration, though they wouldn't bother with a team. No if there's a changeling aboard he's a solitary serial killer.

Well, this won't do at all. Captain Sisko will take some crewmembers and trusted civilians off their regular duties and assign them to investigate for the various threats.

Non-flavored information:

- The setup will either have two scum teams (Mirror Universe and Maquis) or one scum team and one serial killer (Changeling Infiltrator). You won't know which. Scum teams will consist of three players.
- Either way, there will be three alignment cops: a Maquis cop, a Mirror Universe cop, and a changeling cop. These three will be guaranteed NOT the alignment they investigate for - but not guaranteed town.
- Everyone else will have a small role - generally either an X-shot version of a power role or a role of marginal or even negative utility.
- These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100 percent independent of alignment, with the exception of the cops, who cannot be the alignment they investigate. Knowing someone's role or character will not tell you if they're scum.
- There will be only one version of each character in game. So if there's a Mirror Universe Bashir, there won't also be a Changeling Bashir or a Bashir Prime.
- The game is designed to be reasonably balanced in most configuration. But some possible rolls of the dice (e.g. all 3 Ferengi on one scum team) might need to be redone

Quick primer on Deep Space Nine:

It's the third Star Trek series, and the only one to be set on a space station rather than a ship. As such, it has a much richer tapestry of ongoing plotlines than other Star Treks, starting with the discovery of the galaxy's first stable wormhole (which is also home to non-linear time aliens who some characters worship as Gods) to a full on war with aliens from the other side of the wormhole that lasts the last 3 seasons of the show.

The Maquis are dissatisfied members of the Federation (the intergalactic alliance Earth is part of in the 24th century). When Starfleet officers defect to the Maquis on the show, they tend to do it secretly at first, using their rank and position to steal something to help the resistance. So a nice mafia flavor hook.

The Mirror Universe is a ridiculous Star Trek concept - an alternate reality where good people are evil and evil people are good. It started out in the original series, but DS9 did about one mirror universe episode per season.

Changelings are the big bosses of the Dominion, the bad guys in the war. Odo, the station's security chief, is a changeling, but he was raised in the alpha quadrant and he's loyal to the good guys. They can shape shift into animals, other people, inanimate objects, you name it. In the show, the Dominion replaces people with changeling operatives in order to destabilize the alpha quadrant and get them to weaken each other before launching an all out attack.

Knowing more about the show than that will help you make guesses about people's roles if you know their character. But even all that is more than you need to know for a mafia game.

The roles:

The IC (trigger variety):
Jake Sisko

The Cops:
Odo -- flavor/role cop, investigates to Bashir as Changeling even if not SK
Dr. Julian Bashir -- even night changeling cop and 1-shot doctor
Chief Miles O'Brien -- mirror universe cop
Lt. Cmdr. Worf -- maquis cop

The Ferengi:
(Ferengi are a neighborhood. They will be mod-confirmed to not include a specific NON-TOWNalignment. That can be the alignment that isn't in the game.)
Quark
Rom
Nog

Captain Benjamin Sisko -- roleblocker
Major Kira Nerys -- 1-shot vigilante (if town)/1-shot bulletproof (if scum)
Lt. Jadzia Dax / Lt. Ezri Dax -- 1-shot deathproof
Elim Garak, a simple tailor -- 1-shot bus driver OR 1-shot lightning rod (his choice)
Vedek Antos Bariel -- Universal Backup
Captain Kasidy Yates -- 1-shot commuter
General Martok - bomb
Gul Dukat - hated (stops working when it would take 1 or less vote to lynch) godfather
Morn - loved (stops working when he can’t be lynched without self-voting)
Kai Winn - 1-shot double voter (can't be concealed)

In addition to these roles, the SK will gain the bulletproof and strongman modifiers

Town is known as Station-aligned in this game. The town win condition is as follows:

You win when all threats to the Station have been eliminated, and there is at least one Station-aligned player left alive, or nothing can stop this from happening.

Setup clarifications:

Jake Sisko, the IC, is the only character whose alignment is not independent of his role. He is always town. His IC trigger ability can be triggered any time, night or day, and cannot be blocked.

The Ferengi are informed of an alignment that no one in their neighborhood has and that the UB doesn't have, so that if the UB becomes a Ferengi their information is still good.

The Changeling's bulletproof protects against all nightkills, including Martok's bomb. The Changeling's strongman gets through Bashir's doctor shot and scum!Kira's bulletproof. Kasidy can still survive by commuting and Garak can still redirect the shot with either of his abilities.

If Martok is doctored, all (non-bulletproof) players who targeted him with a nightkill still die. It's the act of targeting him, not the act of killing him, that triggers his ability.

Bariel, the UB, triggers when the first other player dies, unless that player is Dax or Jake, in which case it triggers on the second player dying (even if that player is Dax again). If two players die at once when Bariel would be triggered, he acquires one of their roles at random. Which one will not be publicly announced. Bariel's alignment does not change when he inherits a role. If he inherits the changeling role, he inherits only their base role, not their bulletproof or strongman modifiers. He does not inherit a scum player's nightkill. He does not inherit Odo's Miller ability.

Bariel can inherit a cop ability for his own faction. While the original cops are guaranteed to not be the alignment they investigate, this does not hold for the UB.

Bariel does get a new shot of a 1-shot power that has already been used.

If Bariel inherits Kira's power, he will get the version that's already in the game, regardless of his alignment.

Neither the Ferengi nor the scum teams have daychat.

Bashir may not doctor and cop on the same night. When Bashir uses his doctor ability, it will prevent one nightkill. If two or more nightkills are directed at the target, they will still die.

Kai Winn can use her double vote one day per game and must use it publicly by typing "doublevote: Name". Once she does, she can use the commands "undoublevote" and "doublevote: different name" to move it around. It persists for the rest of the game day, but expires after that, whether or not she ended the day with it on a player.

[Jimmmmm]

/in

[sudgy]

I remember the first run of this game going back when I played my first game.  It almost makes me want to play, but I have too much stuff going on.

[Jimmmmm]

Odo -- flavor/role cop, falsely investigates as Changeling

Does this mean "Investigates as Changeling, falsely or otherwise"?

If he is, say, Maquis, will he return a negative result to the Maquis Cop?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

A wise man can hear profit /in the wind.

[LaLight]

Oh i remember read/ing this!

[jotheonah]

Odo -- flavor/role cop, falsely investigates as Changeling

Does this mean "Investigates as Changeling, falsely or otherwise"?

If he is, say, Maquis, will he return a negative result to the Maquis Cop?

Good question. The flavor is that different cops use different kinds of tests. Odo only gets a false positive on a blood test.

So he only investigates as Changeling when investigates by Bashir. O’Brien or Worf will get “not MU” or “not Maquis” (unless Odo is one of those things)

This is different than Gul Dukat, who will give a negative result to all cops regardless of his alignment.

[Jimmmmm]

So he only investigates as Changeling when investigates by Bashir. O’Brien or Worf will get “not MU” or “not Maquis” (unless Odo is one of those things)

I may be being a tad pedantic, but I'm questioning the "falsely". He might happen to be a Changeling, in which case Bashir will correctly investigate him as Changeling. Correct?

[jotheonah]

So he only investigates as Changeling when investigates by Bashir. O’Brien or Worf will get “not MU” or “not Maquis” (unless Odo is one of those things)

I may be being a tad pedantic, but I'm questioning the "falsely". He might happen to be a Changeling, in which case Bashir will correctly investigate him as Changeling. Correct?

I'll edit the verbiage.

[Swowl]

o
m
g

Deep Space 9! Love the flavor

I am going to

/in

... but it is contingent upon the part about not starting it prior to the end of RMM51

Looks super fun!

[jotheonah]

I had another thought about the setup. I’m going to pick the scum configuration with 2 coin flips rather than randomly choosing two of three teams. I think it’s better that it’s 50/50 SK+scum or scumx2 rather than 33/66 so town doesn’t get a “default assumption”.

[mcmcsalot]

/in

[Glooble]

/in Unless you’d rather I co-mod with you.

[jotheonah]

/in Unless you’d rather I co-mod with you.

I think I need all the players I can get.

[WestCoastDidds]

/in

[mail-mi]

/tag, may be able to help comod, definitely cannot play.

[SpaceAnemone]

/in

Loved DS9, so I really want to play. Maaaay have to duck out to avoid too many simultaneous commitments down the line.

[shraeye]

/in. Missed the first one by a bit.  Gotta do this

[arishipshape]

/in

Thanks for reminding me to watch DS9. I only watched the first few episodes and couldn't get into it, but I hear it's awesome

[faust]

The SK in this setup seems super weak. Only 1-shot BP AND a guaranteed Cop against them? In a game of 18 players?

[faust]

(Ferengi are a neighborhood. They will be mod-confirmed to not include a specific alignment. That can be the alignment that isn't in the game.)

Can you clarify how that works? The alignment not included will be posted in the QT? Is the alignment excluded chosen before picking the Ferengi or the other way around? And how will the excluded alignment be determined exactly?

[jotheonah]

(Ferengi are a neighborhood. They will be mod-confirmed to not include a specific alignment. That can be the alignment that isn't in the game.)

Can you clarify how that works? The alignment not included will be posted in the QT? Is the alignment excluded chosen before picking the Ferengi or the other way around? And how will the excluded alignment be determined exactly?

Other way around. The Ferengi are chosen. Out of all the possible alignments not represented among them, including the one not in the game, one is chosen and they're all told about it.

The SK in this setup seems super weak. Only 1-shot BP AND a guaranteed Cop against them? In a game of 18 players?

I'm open to suggestions for buffing, but there aren't too many good ones. Strongman and Ninja do almost nothing in this setup.  I guess I could give them Loved or a 1-shot extra vote.

[jotheonah]

Keep in mind, Sk also has a dedicated miller which mitigates the effectiveness of the dedicated cop a bit. But actually thinking about it, maybe full bulletproof is the solution. It’s also somewhat flavorful, since changeligs are quite hard to kill.

[faust]

Keep in mind, Sk also has a dedicated miller which mitigates the effectiveness of the dedicated cop a bit. But actually thinking about it, maybe full bulletproof is the solution. It’s also somewhat flavorful, since changeligs are quite hard to kill.

It doesn't mitigate it quite as much when you consider that the SK cannot actually claim that role without being counterclaimed. I'd really want to give them something to avoid being exposed, because that is really really unfun. Maybe X-shot Commuter or something along those lines. Though in that case "No result" may still out them. Having an SK Cop just seems like a pretty bad idea, I'm not sure it can work.

[jotheonah]

Keep in mind, Sk also has a dedicated miller which mitigates the effectiveness of the dedicated cop a bit. But actually thinking about it, maybe full bulletproof is the solution. It’s also somewhat flavorful, since changeligs are quite hard to kill.

It doesn't mitigate it quite as much when you consider that the SK cannot actually claim that role without being counterclaimed. I'd really want to give them something to avoid being exposed, because that is really really unfun. Maybe X-shot Commuter or something along those lines. Though in that case "No result" may still out them. Having an SK Cop just seems like a pretty bad idea, I'm not sure it can work.

Hmmm. The heart of the setup really is the idea of three cops that each investigate a different faction, but only two of those factions are in the game. I think if I remove the SK cop it kind of kills the whole thing.

I'm not sure I agree with you. I mean, yes, if I'm the SK and I get SK-copped it really sucks. But it's not like that's a random event I have no control over. The SK needs to play in such a way that the cop doesn't target them, or they need to figure out who the cop is and kill them before they catch them. It's hard, but it's not impossible. And the first night, if they're bulletproof, they have a 1/17 chance of being investigated-- pretty good odds.

The other thing I could do is add more roles to the pool and have some roles not in the game. That makes fakeclaiming a little more possible. I would probably auto-include the main cops, but I could definitely put Odo on the rotating in and out list.

Also, other folks feel free to weigh in. I'm very open to feedback before the game starts, that's the beauty of an open setup.

[mail-mi]

What if you give the SK 1 or 2 shots of active investigation immunity? They have to choose which night to use it,but if they choose right they get cleared?

Also yeah you're gonna need some more fake claims.

[jotheonah]

Part of the whole point of the setup is to make fakeclaims not a thing. Since anyone can have any role, you can always just claim. I like the X-shot immunity idea, though that kind of makes Bashir pretty weak, since he can't even for sure rule people out.

[jotheonah]

Ooh there's actually another big problem with the Miller thing in an open setup. If someone gets investigated as SK and claims Odo, the next question is who have you investigated (and what did you find) and then they're basically sunk. So that's actually sort of a big problem.

[shraeye]

So...if I don't read the setup at all....would you say that's a disadvantage? advantage?  vantage?

[arishipshape]

/out
I'm actually gonna be kinda busy during the time this game should take place. If my schedule clears up I'll be in again. If i'm gonna play mafia, i'm gonna give it my all and be super active.

[MiX]

I just played my first game of f.ds mafia. I cannot stop.

/in

I've never felt more alive.

[jotheonah]

I've never felt more alive.

Ironic.

After much consideration, I’ve made the following changes: the changeling (SK) will gain full bulletproof and full strongman, neither of which will show up on odo’s Investigation.

Dr. Bashir becomes an even-night SK cop but gains 1-shot doc.

I believe these changes should help give the serial killer a fighting chance, though it is still, as always, a challenging role to draw.

[mcmcsalot]

I just played my first game of f.ds mafia. I cannot stop.

/in

I've never felt more alive.

One..of..us..one..of..us..

[ashersky]

Should I play?  I survived for a fairly long time in the first iteration — don’t recall my role but I was town.

[raerae]

Should I play?  I survived for a fairly long time in the first iteration — don’t recall my role but I was town.

Do eeeetttttt

[jotheonah]

Should I play?  I survived for a fairly long time in the first iteration — don’t recall my role but I was town.

According to my notes, you were Worf! I'm sure you played with honor.

[shraeye]

ooh, dibs on Worf!

[faust]

It's about time to /in.

[ashersky]

Agreed. /in

[2.71828.....]

/in

[Robz888]

/in

[jotheonah]

We just need 4 more! (and for faust's game to end but I don't think we're too far off). Maybe we could get a Galzria? Or a raerae? Or someone's roommate/spouse/drinking buddy?

[Awaclus]

/in

[SpaceAnemone]

Every time I see this thread, the DS9 soundtrack gets stuck in my head all over again.

[Glooble]

Trying to talk roommate into this. He's American but works the graveyard shift so he'd be online at the same time as the Europeans.

[Uncleeurope]

I have typed a reply here somewhere around six times, I have no idea how feasible it is to be in two games at once for me...

F/ine.

[jotheonah]

I have typed a reply here somewhere around six times, I have no idea how feasible it is to be in two games at once for me...

F/ine.

You never know until you try?

[jotheonah]

So it seems like everyone does individual QTs these days. Has private messaging for roles just fallen out of favor?

[2.71828.....]

So it seems like everyone does individual QTs these days. Has private messaging for roles just fallen out of favor?

Yeah, it has. I think it is a lot easier to manage as a mod than getting a million PMs. And some people like to write their thoughts down somewhere other than in the thread (so scummy, I know).

[raerae]

Trying to talk roommate into this. He's American but works the graveyard shift so he'd be online at the same time as the Europeans.

If you're roommate /ins then I will too. Obviously this should have enormous bearing on their decision.

[raerae]

Trying to talk roommate into this. He's American but works the graveyard shift so he'd be online at the same time as the Europeans.

If you're roommate /ins then I will too. Obviously this should have enormous bearing on their decision.

*Your, ugh

[mcmcsalot]

So I just reread the setup, I’m really really excited for this game. It’s feels like a lot of fun/activity while being quite balanced.

[MiX]

/in

You wrote it. It was meant to be.

[Uncleeurope]

/in

You wrote it. It was meant to be.

It’s too late for her now, she’s trapped.

[WestCoastDidds]

C'mon, c'mon, c'mon, c'mon!

[raerae]

It's a twofer if The Gloobs' roomie joins.  Fill the spots, get some awesome folks, start the game.  It's. Perfect.

[Chickenwarlord]

Sure, I'm in.

[jotheonah]

Chicken warlord is almost certainly Glooble’s roommate, so raerae I guess you’re in. Hopefully you and shraeye can handle being in the game together with the two-year-old.

[raerae]

Chicken warlord is almost certainly Glooble’s roommate, so raerae I guess you’re in. Hopefully you and shraeye can handle being in the game together with the two-year-old.

We could never handle it without the two year old.  This will go well.

/in

[jotheonah]

Ok well. Please re-read the setup information as I have been tinkering with it this whole time and parts of it may have changed.

I don't know/remember how to move this thing into the Mafia Games thread, so I would be grateful if ashersky could assist me in that endeavor. I will send out role PMs with QT links soon (like, in the next couple of days). I will post again here once they're out, and then once everyone confirms Night 0 will begin. If you are /inned and can no longer commit, PM me.

If you are interested in being my co-mod, PM me at any time.

Thread locked.

[gkrieg13]

I'm going on vacation, starting in a week and lasting for 10 days.  I would happily sub in at that time.

To move the thread, you go to the bottom of the thread and click the move topic button on the left.

[jotheonah]

Thanks!

[jotheonah]

PMs are out! Please confirm in your QT, even if I accidentally said to confirm in thread in your PM.

Night 0 has begun, though no one has night 0 actions so that doesn't really mean anything.

Anyway, Day 1 will begin Saturday, February 23rd at 8:00 am forum time, unless a certain number of people request a later start in their QTs.

[jotheonah]

Everyone has confirmed and not enough people requested a later start, so the game will start 8 am tomorrow as planned.

[jotheonah]

Some clarifications about the Universal Backup role (Bariel), just as an FYI:

The Universal Backup inherits only the powers tied to the flavor name. They would not inherit the SK's bonus powers. They would inherit whichever power Kira has this game (even if that would result in a scum vigilante or a town bulletproof). They do not inherit Odo's flavor-based Miller ability.

They do get a new charge if a 1-shot power has already been used.

The Universal Backup cannot inherit Jake Sisko's IC power, regardless of whether they are town or scum. If Jake dies first, Bariel will instead gain the power of the next player to die.

Finally, if for whatever reason two players die simultaneously, the UB inherits a power at random.

[jotheonah]

"Well, you're nobody til somebody loves you
So find yourself somebody to love!"

As Vic Fontaine finishes his set, Miles O'Brien and Julian Bashir stand up and applaud.

"Wouldn't it be great?" Julian asks Miles "Living in this time, in this place?"

"I don't know, Julian. As much fun as the holosuite is, if this were really Las Vegas in the 50s, it wouldn't be so relaxing. You know the mob ran this town."

"The mob?" asks the young doctor.

"As in mafia, kid," Vic says, joining them at the bar. "As in wakin' up with a horse head in your bed if you piss off the wrong guy. And never knowing for sure who the wrong guy is."

"Thank God we don't have to worry about that," O'Brien says sarcastically, finishing his drink. "We just have to worry about Changeling inflitrators, Mirror Universe doubles, and Maquis spies. Did you get a special assignment from the Captain too?"

"I'm actually not supposed to talk about it," Julian says. "But do me a favor and stop by the infirmary later today. I just remembered I need to redo some of your blood work..."

Day One has begun

Not voting (18): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, LaLight, DatSwan, mcmcsalot, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, MiX, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, chickenwarlord

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players.

Thread unlocked

[mcmcsalot]

First! vote:raerae because I can!

[MiX]

And so it begins. Great opening joth!

Being an open setup, there's a lot of things to say about this game...things that might not be optimal to say right now, so I'll stay quiet, for now.

What a line-up! So many competent players, compared to them I'm an ant...

But first, chickenwarlord, can you make a signature or put your Shuffle iT name? That'll make rereading easier.

Of everyone here, I know who's a threat: Vote: Robz888, you're supposed to be good as scum, right? Well let's test that.

I have things I want to say to people but that'll break the rules, however this won't: Awaclus, I admire your mafia skills, please teach me how to play like you.

That is all. Let the game commence! So excited!

PPE 1: Dammit!

[Glooble]

I need to find a quote from the last game to put as my sig.

I am going to go ahead and vote: Awaclus because I was right last game, dammit, and no one believed me!

[Awaclus]

I need to find a quote from the last game to put as my sig.

I am going to go ahead and vote: Awaclus because I was right last game, dammit, and no one believed me!

Well you're wrong this time.

[Glooble]

I need to find a quote from the last game to put as my sig.

I am going to go ahead and vote: Awaclus because I was right last game, dammit, and no one believed me!

Well you're wrong this time.

We’ll see.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: LaLight

This will be 3 scum games in a row, right?

M120, RMM51, and this game. They are on a streak! You can beat WW's streak, I know it!

[faust]

Vote: LaLight

This will be 3 scum games in a row, right?

M120, RMM51, and this game. They are on a streak! You can beat WW's streak, I know it!

Something something ongoing game.

[faust]

I need to find a quote from the last game to put as my sig.

I am going to go ahead and vote: Awaclus because I was right last game, dammit, and no one believed me!

Well you're wrong this time.

How ironic coming from you.

[faust]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

[Awaclus]

I need to find a quote from the last game to put as my sig.

I am going to go ahead and vote: Awaclus because I was right last game, dammit, and no one believed me!

Well you're wrong this time.

How ironic coming from you.

How is that ironic coming from me?

[faust]

I need to find a quote from the last game to put as my sig.

I am going to go ahead and vote: Awaclus because I was right last game, dammit, and no one believed me!

Well you're wrong this time.

How ironic coming from you.

How is that ironic coming from me?

I remember you for a long time always opening with a silverspawn vote because he was scum in Futuramafia. Now Glooble does the same to you.

[MiX]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

[Glooble]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

Why would you out a cop instantly?

[faust]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

The advantage is that we guarantee that no Cop wastes their shot on a useless target.

[faust]

For the same reason we probably want an instant IC reveal.

[MiX]

For the same reason we probably want an instant IC reveal.

To get him killed instantly? But then I guess cops don't drop dead, huh...

Essencially, we get more results from cops, but cops die sooner...not sure if that's a good tradeoff.

I'll need to think about this...

[Glooble]

For the same reason we probably want an instant IC reveal.

To get him killed instantly? But then I guess cops don't drop dead, huh...

Essencially, we get more results from cops, but cops die sooner...not sure if that's a good tradeoff.

I'll need to think about this...

Keep in mind we only have a 1-shot doctor, who might be scum, and maybe a 1-shot bus driver (who also might be scum.) That’s not a lot of protective roles to protect anyone who might claim.

[faust]

For the same reason we probably want an instant IC reveal.

To get him killed instantly? But then I guess cops don't drop dead, huh...

Essencially, we get more results from cops, but cops die sooner...not sure if that's a good tradeoff.

I'll need to think about this...

Keep in mind we only have a 1-shot doctor, who might be scum, and maybe a 1-shot bus driver (who also might be scum.) That’s not a lot of protective roles to protect anyone who might claim.

Hence my being less sure about the IC thing. We don't need to discuss that; they can just decide on their own. But Gul Dukat does not need to be protected, so that is definitely a good claim.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay

Gul Dukat - hated godfather, non alignment indicative
Jake Sisko - Triggerable IC

Pros of Gul claiming are cops don’t waste target.
Cons of Gul claiming are if town he is probably left alive for scum to kill in lylo.
18 people (17 targets) with 4 cops means each cop has a 5.88% chance of hitting him.
I’m not sure the pro is actually worth the con day one based on the small changes of him getting hit. Overall I think it’s a low pro and a low con so we are not making a mistake either way. Maybe If Gul think there is any chance they are going to be an investigations target at the end of the day they should claim.

Pros of Jake claiming are we get an IC day on and cops don’t waste an investigative target, also Jake becomes go to night kill and protects cops.
Cons of Jake claiming are simply he fact that the longer we wait the more helpful an IC can be.
I think this obtains max cost/benefit at on Day 2. There is a chance a cop has a result in day 2 creating a decision for scum to make. We will have a lynch and information for Jake to help us work through.

So I think Gull claim if they are potentially a target and Jake claim tomorrow.

[shraeye]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

The advantage is that we guarantee that no Cop wastes their shot on a useless target.

Why is Gul Dukat a useless target?  He's not the IC.

[Glooble]

For the same reason we probably want an instant IC reveal.

To get him killed instantly? But then I guess cops don't drop dead, huh...

Essencially, we get more results from cops, but cops die sooner...not sure if that's a good tradeoff.

I'll need to think about this...

Keep in mind we only have a 1-shot doctor, who might be scum, and maybe a 1-shot bus driver (who also might be scum.) That’s not a lot of protective roles to protect anyone who might claim.

Hence my being less sure about the IC thing. We don't need to discuss that; they can just decide on their own. But Gul Dukat does not need to be protected, so that is definitely a good claim.

True. Let’s also keep in mind the possibility of a scum double-voter when putting someone to L-2, though the fact that they have to announce the double vote publicly probably keeps scum from using that power early in the game.

[Glooble]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

The advantage is that we guarantee that no Cop wastes their shot on a useless target.

Why is Gul Dukat a useless target?  He's not the IC.

He’s a useless target because he’s a Godfather. He’ll investigate as station-aligned no matter what.

[shraeye]

Oooh, missed the part after the parenthesis in the rules; focused too much on hated.  Sooo, yeah....guess that's not my role....#wifom

But I fully agree that each town should decide for themselves the best time to claim.  There isn't much point in discussing these things too hard.  RVS is random voting stage, not really verbose strategizing.

[faust]

But I fully agree that each town should decide for themselves the best time to claim.  There isn't much point in discussing these things too hard.  RVS is random voting stage, not really verbose strategizing.

RVS is bullshit.

Also sure town roles can decide this for themselves. But how do we know that Gul is town? Scum needs to be forced to make that claim.

[mcmcsalot]

But I fully agree that each town should decide for themselves the best time to claim.  There isn't much point in discussing these things too hard.  RVS is random voting stage, not really verbose strategizing.

RVS is bullshit.

Also sure town roles can decide this for themselves. But how do we know that Gul is town? Scum needs to be forced to make that claim.

Do we care is scum!gull claims or not? A claimed Gull is not going to be treated any different than all other players alignment wise. Thus claiming Gull at L-anything shouldn’t change our want to lynch them at all. The only town pro we get for any alignment Gull claiming is so they don’t get copped. And the only town con is if Gull is town scum will not want to kill them to be able to abuse them in mylo. In fact scum can kinda force town to lynch Gull eventually or risk losing in the event Gull is town.

[shraeye]

But I fully agree that each town should decide for themselves the best time to claim.  There isn't much point in discussing these things too hard.  RVS is random voting stage, not really verbose strategizing.

RVS is bullshit.

Also sure town roles can decide this for themselves. But how do we know that Gul is town? Scum needs to be forced to make that claim.

Yeah, I agree on RVS. 

I don't see how getting Gul to claim is particularly damning if it's scum.   Like, obviously getting scum to claim any role would be good because A) they can't counterclaim in the future and B) we'd know who scum is.

So yeah, town should decide when to claim for themselves.  Scum, you all need to claim right now.  #winning

[Glooble]

RVS is random voting stage, not really verbose strategizing.

Love the joke, disagree with the premise. It’s all about encouraging conversation so we have something to analyze later when we have more information. Plus every so often scum trips up, which is more likely with more talking.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh I missed the town benefit of scum!gull claiming by locking them into a gull claim. That may tip the scales in favor of gull claiming.

[shraeye]

RVS is random voting stage, not really verbose strategizing.

Love the joke, disagree with the premise. It’s all about encouraging conversation so we have something to analyze later when we have more information. Plus every so often scum trips up, which is more likely with more talking.

I really just said that for the joke, plus a soft emphasis on "let's stop making shraeye accidently claim not-X".

I'm all for talking.  And the hashtags.  #important

[shraeye]

Oh I missed the town benefit of scum!gull claiming by locking them into a gull claim. That may tip the scales in favor of gull claiming.

Are you serious?!  My "it's not worth it" post makes you think it's worth it.  #backfire #facepalm

Disregard mcmcs, he's not right.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh I missed the town benefit of scum!gull claiming by locking them into a gull claim. That may tip the scales in favor of gull claiming.

Are you serious?!  My "it's not worth it" post makes you think it's worth it.  #backfire #facepalm

Disregard mcmcs, he's not right.

I said maybe, the pro of potentially locking scum into a claim as well as the pro of not wasting a cop shot on Gull, as well as the pro of not accidentally clearing an unclaimed scum!gull who lies. Might outweigh the con of forcing us to think about lynching gull later in the game due to the numbers.

I’m not convinced either way but there are more pros than I initially thought.

[mcmcsalot]

Also important to note that all cops aren’t guaranteed to be town so the chances that a town!cop hits gull is pretty low.

[faust]

Also important to note that all cops aren’t guaranteed to be town so the chances that a town!cop hits gull is pretty low.

Yeah but it doesn't really matter for us whether a town Cop hits scum or a scum Cop hits other scum.

[mcmcsalot]

Also important to note that all cops aren’t guaranteed to be town so the chances that a town!cop hits gull is pretty low.

Yeah but it doesn't really matter for us whether a town Cop hits scum or a scum Cop hits other scum.

True

[MiX]

I highly doubt scum wants to fake claim...maybe temporarily, but eventually everyone can confirm everything anyway.

Remember that Gul can't be quicklynched if there's only 1 scum, so there's that. Overall I'm pretty sure Gul should claim...but I want to hear from others.

[Robz888]

Wow this is a big game.

I don’t really have an opinion on those two roles claiming.

[2.71828.....]

shraeye seems like town.

Have I played with you before?  I forget. 

Also, what is the whole big deal for someone claiming D1?

[mcmcsalot]

shraeye seems like town.

Have I played with you before?  I forget. 

Also, what is the whole big deal for someone claiming D1?

What??? Well that makes me feel old

[2.71828.....]

shraeye seems like town.

Have I played with you before?  I forget. 

Also, what is the whole big deal for someone claiming D1?

What??? Well that makes me feel old

yeah, my first game was M33.  Or actually MXXXIII since we still used roman numerals.  And then I missed shraeye in Adventure Time....so I don't think I have played with them?

[faust]

Vote: e

[2.71828.....]

But actually I am right between you and Robz for age, so you aren't that old.  Just been on f.ds longer playing mafia.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: e

vote: faust

for doubting my shraeye read.  They are basically an IC.

[Uncleeurope]

Darn everything, I was planning on just coming out of the gate claiming Gul, but now because you people talked about it so much, it is much less exciting.

I claim Gul.

I am pretty sure it is the correct play as well.

[faust]

Neat. Vote: Eddie

[2.71828.....]

Neat. Vote: Eddie

who is Eddie?

[faust]

Right, no, I forgot we have to wait a day.

Hmm. Back to vote: e

PPE: Eddie = Uncleeurope.

[2.71828.....]

Right, no, I forgot we have to wait a day.

Hmm. Back to vote: e

PPE: Eddie = Uncleeurope.

See, I told you we should be voting faust

[mcmcsalot]

Right, no, I forgot we have to wait a day.

Hmm. Back to vote: e

PPE: Eddie = Uncleeurope.

See, I told you we should be voting faust

I disagree and will also vote: europe

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi!

I’m at a conference in Seattle for work this weekend, so I’m not going to be present in any real way until Tuesday.

I read the OG version of the game on the plane last night. Holy cow...Day 1 was like 2 weeks long. 50 pages! I’m glad y’all cut that ish down before I got here.

[faust]

Right, no, I forgot we have to wait a day.

Hmm. Back to vote: e

PPE: Eddie = Uncleeurope.

See, I told you we should be voting faust

I disagree and will also vote: europe

If we lynch him today, the Universal Backup will inherit the Hated Godfather. We do not want that.

[raerae]

First! vote:raerae because I can!

    

Right back attcha!

Vote: mcmc

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I need to find a quote from the last game to put as my sig.

I am going to go ahead and vote: Awaclus because I was right last game, dammit, and no one believed me!

I know I had some activity problems there, but not getting voted by any of the people using this logic makes me a bit sad.

Also, I've been thinking I need a good sig quote too, when I ISO players a lot of people have really fun things to search "potato," "Joth is useless, "UncleEurope."

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Neat. Vote: Eddie

Vote: faust

I've come to appreciate RVS but I get the RVS is lame argument, used to feel that way too but now I kind of like it. Which is why I'm a bit sad this is a totally serious vote.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Snow

Nice to be in a game with you again, bro.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I do like Dukat claiming, now I don't have to argue about it though.

Also we obviously can't control when people claim, but faust, shraeye and others (and Joth in the Ancillary game) are really pushing this thing where it's all up to the town. Obvious it is up to the individual players but it is very much worth discussing. I was serious when I said I thought it had hurt town in Ancillary Mafia, the only thing I was lying about there was being upset about it.

This game is open so for the new players, scum have no value in fake claiming here, since every single one of us has a unique name from a known list. Towns lately seem to love randomly claiming their roles at L-4 or whatever and it's hugely anti-town. Even if your role is not a likely NK target, you narrow the pool of targets for the roles scum are looking for and it hurts everyone else.

Mafia is a team game, and decisions each player makes effect their whole team.

I don't know where this argument is coming from, but multiple players across multiple games are saying things with similar language so it's getting to be kind of a meme and I really think it's bad play that we should clamp down on.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also, Shraeye, just sit out the theory talk so you don't soft not-X info if you want, but with this setup we're going to need to talk theory at certain points, especially after claims.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: Snow

Nice to be in a game with you again, bro.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting super paranoid about you D2.

I was thinking when I came in I'd open with jokey stuff about you and then I got sucked into serious mode after 1 post.  Really glad you signed up for this game, even if you haven't seen BestTrek. I sat down and watched the whole opening video before reading the game I love it so much. But if I'm going to talk you into a new old scifi show, it should probably be Farscape.

[Awaclus]

I do like Dukat claiming, now I don't have to argue about it though.

Also we obviously can't control when people claim, but faust, shraeye and others (and Joth in the Ancillary game) are really pushing this thing where it's all up to the town. Obvious it is up to the individual players but it is very much worth discussing. I was serious when I said I thought it had hurt town in Ancillary Mafia, the only thing I was lying about there was being upset about it.

This game is open so for the new players, scum have no value in fake claiming here, since every single one of us has a unique name from a known list. Towns lately seem to love randomly claiming their roles at L-4 or whatever and it's hugely anti-town. Even if your role is not a likely NK target, you narrow the pool of targets for the roles scum are looking for and it hurts everyone else.

Mafia is a team game, and decisions each player makes effect their whole team.

I don't know where this argument is coming from, but multiple players across multiple games are saying things with similar language so it's getting to be kind of a meme and I really think it's bad play that we should clamp down on.

In RMM51, it definitely helped scum a ton that a lot of information was available and that a lot of it was true. We were able to make very informed decisions most nights.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Advice for Jake
While I'm telling people what to do, Jake should absolutely hold off on triggering until at least the day he thinks he's going to be lynched. It would help to trigger it earlier in the day, not like when the wagon is L-1 or something, but sometimes you go into a night thinking "I'm so obvtown, I'm totally going to eat the kill" and if you live that night, we're better served by not having triggered the IC ability.

Eventually most people get suspected again no matter how widely townread they were earlier on, and when you feel the game shifting in that direction, I think that's the time to trigger it, enough time left in the Day that the ability is useful but not so early in the game as to have been useless because you were being townread anyway. Because with the weak protections in the game, and the possibility of them being scum, Jake is very likely to die the night after he goes off.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

In RMM51, it definitely helped scum a ton that a lot of information was available and that a lot of it was true. We were able to make very informed decisions most nights.

Yeah, and I think some of the most useful bits of information were what players not to worry too much about. Which is even more true here since the setup is open

[UmbrageOfSnow]

While we're on the subject, I'd totally have made the previous post as Jake.

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

[mcmcsalot]

Right, no, I forgot we have to wait a day.

Hmm. Back to vote: e

PPE: Eddie = Uncleeurope.

See, I told you we should be voting faust

I disagree and will also vote: europe

If we lynch him today, the Universal Backup will inherit the Hated Godfather. We do not want that.

right unvote

[Glooble]

Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi!

I’m at a conference in Seattle for work this weekend, so I’m not going to be present in any real way until Tuesday.

I read the OG version of the game on the plane last night. Holy cow...Day 1 was like 2 weeks long. 50 pages! I’m glad y’all cut that ish down before I got here.

My favorite part was when yuma claimed he hadn't used the role he was lying about having because he accidentally e-mailed the mod's old e-mail address that he never checks and people actually bought it.

[shraeye]

I've come to appreciate RVS but I get the RVS is lame argument, used to feel that way too but now I kind of like it. Which is why I'm a bit sad this is a totally serious vote.

Dude, like NOTHING has happened.  We aren't at serious-vote stage yet, that's absurd.

Mafia is a team game, and decisions each player makes effect their whole team.

Yeah, but I trust in my own ability to work what is best for the whole town and not pick bad options only because they save myself for a bit.  It seems that the whole basis for your "let me tell you what you should do" post is that other players are too short-sighted to figure out what seems immediately bad for them versus what is long-term bad for town.  A) that's wrong and B) that's rude.

Also, Shraeye, just sit out the theory talk so you don't soft not-X info if you want, but with this setup we're going to need to talk theory at certain points, especially after claims.

Like, literally, this.  I can make that decision for myself. #sarcasticthanks

[2.71828.....]

I've come to appreciate RVS but I get the RVS is lame argument, used to feel that way too but now I kind of like it. Which is why I'm a bit sad this is a totally serious vote.

Dude, like NOTHING has happened.  We aren't at serious-vote stage yet, that's absurd.

Mafia is a team game, and decisions each player makes effect their whole team.

Yeah, but I trust in my own ability to work what is best for the whole town and not pick bad options only because they save myself for a bit.  It seems that the whole basis for your "let me tell you what you should do" post is that other players are too short-sighted to figure out what seems immediately bad for them versus what is long-term bad for town.  A) that's wrong and B) that's rude.

Also, Shraeye, just sit out the theory talk so you don't soft not-X info if you want, but with this setup we're going to need to talk theory at certain points, especially after claims.

Like, literally, this.  I can make that decision for myself. #sarcasticthanks

I trust you to make the right decision, you are basically conf!town at this point

[2.71828.....]

Speaking of the right decision, more people should vote faust. If they actually turn out scum then I am basically an IC

[raerae]

I've come to appreciate RVS but I get the RVS is lame argument, used to feel that way too but now I kind of like it. Which is why I'm a bit sad this is a totally serious vote.

Dude, like NOTHING has happened.  We aren't at serious-vote stage yet, that's absurd.

Guess again!
Vote: shraeye

[faust]

Speaking of the right decision, more people should vote faust. If they actually turn out scum then I am basically an IC

You should try this on someone else if you want to become an IC.

[faust]

Also we obviously can't control when people claim, but faust, shraeye and others (and Joth in the Ancillary game) are really pushing this thing where it's all up to the town. Obvious it is up to the individual players but it is very much worth discussing. I was serious when I said I thought it had hurt town in Ancillary Mafia, the only thing I was lying about there was being upset about it.

The main problem in discussing it is that invariably people will drop hints about whether they are the role in question etc. That kind of half-info is the worst we can do, but on the other hand, it is kind of impossible to get to a town consensus without going through revealing discussion.

So I advocate townies deciding for themselves. They may make the wrong decision, but at least that means that at the end of the day, I get to yell at them and blame them for losing the game for us if they do.

[2.71828.....]

Speaking of the right decision, more people should vote faust. If they actually turn out scum then I am basically an IC

You should try this on someone else if you want to become an IC.

Back at you

[UmbrageOfSnow]

They may make the wrong decision, but at least that means that at the end of the day, I get to yell at them and blame them for losing the game for us if they do.

I get tired of yelling though.

But seriously, I think it really needs saying given the rash of unnecessary and kind of bad claims lately surrounded by most of the yelling being "Everyone can decide for themselves, stop telling me what to do, ya jerk. By the way, I'm a VT."

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Dude, like NOTHING has happened.  We aren't at serious-vote stage yet, that's absurd.

In that daily effort in which intelligence and passion mingle and delight each other, the absurd man discovers reads that will make up the greatest of his strengths.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yeah, but I trust in my own ability to work what is best for the whole town and not pick bad options only because they save myself for a bit.  It seems that the whole basis for your "let me tell you what you should do" post is that other players are too short-sighted to figure out what seems immediately bad for them versus what is long-term bad for town.  A) that's wrong and B) that's rude.

I'm not even talking about bad choices that save yourself, and I'm not explicitly talking about you. I'm talking about bad choices that don't even serve a purpose. Collectively towns don't act in the best interest of town all the time, and it feels like there's this movement for everyone to just be chill with that.

I'm not sorry about being rude, because the alternative is to keep patting people on the back for making suboptimal decisions and not thinking things through, because that's their right as players.

The only consequence for bad claims is getting picked on about it a bit, and I think we need to do a bit more of that.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Like the only reason I'm even saying this is people keep jumping up to say "It's okay, town can just claim at whatever dumb time they want and anyone telling them otherwise is a big dumb jerk."

Won't anyone think of the big dumb jerks?

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

[MiX]

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

You missed the fact that he unvoted Uncle, didn't you?

Now, serious talk: anyone who knows Robz's meta, does he analyze setups? Does he like to break setups? Is he usually good at theory talk in general?

So, uncle claimed...well that makes him unlynchable, so he might as well be the IC for this day, right?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

[raerae]

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

You missed the fact that he unvoted Uncle, didn't you?

Now, serious talk: anyone who knows Robz's meta, does he analyze setups? Does he like to break setups? Is he usually good at theory talk in general?

So, uncle claimed...well that makes him unlynchable, so he might as well be the IC for this day, right?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

And why can't shraeye be our lunch today? He seems just as on the table as everybody else?

[MiX]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

Why would you out a cop instantly?

I feel like I should answer this: just because I said I didn't see the advantage of outing a non-cop doesn't mean I saw an advantage in outing cops: we were talking about Gul, and we know that he's not a cop.

PPE 1: Because I have an uncanny ability to see the future; with this, I can predict that e won't flip his townread, and I expect to strenghten mine as well. I might be reading too much into this, being early D1 and all, but I use all information we have available.

[Glooble]

UoS has a good point. Like, it goes without saying that when to claim is up to each individual player. And regardless of what you think about claiming in general, this particular game is set up in such a way as to make claiming much, much more useful for scum than it is for town. Because role has almost no impact on alignment. So scum knowing where the power roles are is very, very good for them, sinc they can take out the most powerful town. Town knowing people's roles is especially unhelpful because it doesn't actually help us catch scum at all.

Dukat was arguably an exception because hated is a good thing to know about so you don't accidentally hammer someone and I guess it helps cops to not waste a shot. But any additional claims are just going to help scum get more useful night kills. So let's not do that.

[2.71828.....]

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

You missed the fact that he unvoted Uncle, didn't you?

Now, serious talk: anyone who knows Robz's meta, does he analyze setups? Does he like to break setups? Is he usually good at theory talk in general?

So, uncle claimed...well that makes him unlynchable, so he might as well be the IC for this day, right?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

What was my reason that shraeye is town?

[Glooble]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

Why would you out a cop instantly?

I feel like I should answer this: just because I said I didn't see the advantage of outing a non-cop doesn't mean I saw an advantage in outing cops: we were talking about Gul, and we know that he's not a cop.

PPE 1: Because I have an uncanny ability to see the future; with this, I can predict that e won't flip his townread, and I expect to strenghten mine as well. I might be reading too much into this, being early D1 and all, but I use all information we have available.

That doesn't really answer my question. The way you worded this implies that there's a perfectly logical reason to out a cop right away, and I'm struggling to see when that would ever be a good idea, especially in a setup where town has so few protective roles, possibly even none.

[MiX]

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

What was my reason that shraeye is town?

There are no masons, no cop results, and I doubt this is partner interaction. Thus I believe that you have a genuine townread.

Mine is him soft-claiming not Gul feeling very casual, that and his general jokey-ness, which I believe comes from town!shraeye, based on previous games I read.

Any questions?

PPE 1: There are no advantages of outing a cop. There are also no advantages of outing a non-cop. Please state if you wish for me to clarify.

[mcmcsalot]

Speaking of the right decision, more people should vote faust. If they actually turn out scum then I am basically an IC

this is backwards thinking vote: E

[Swowl]

Hey everyone.
Weekend prod dodge.
Will dive in tomorrow.

[mcmcsalot]

I think Gul Dukat should claim.

I think everyone should claim to be (or not to be) hated at L-2. I don't see the advantage of outing a non-cop instantly.

Why would you out a cop instantly?

I feel like I should answer this: just because I said I didn't see the advantage of outing a non-cop doesn't mean I saw an advantage in outing cops: we were talking about Gul, and we know that he's not a cop.

PPE 1: Because I have an uncanny ability to see the future; with this, I can predict that e won't flip his townread, and I expect to strenghten mine as well. I might be reading too much into this, being early D1 and all, but I use all information we have available.

Mix how old are you and where are you from and what is your favorite hobby? this will honestly help me get your voice and read you better

[MiX]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

[WestCoastDidds]

I read the OG version of the game on the plane last night. Holy cow...Day 1 was like 2 weeks long. 50 pages! I’m glad y’all cut that ish down before I got here.

My favorite part was when yuma claimed he hadn't used the role he was lying about having because he accidentally e-mailed the mod's old e-mail address that he never checks and people actually bought it.

Right? Joth clearly struggled with deciding to to Jo-the-O or Jo-to-the-0! The alias struggle is real!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

There's one other important question:

Do you have a neopets account, and how many of them are named "Jessica?"

[MiX]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

There's one other important question:

Do you have a neopets account, and how many of them are named "Jessica?"

I'm sorry for not being pacovf.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.1

"Captain, Gul Dukat's ship is requesting permission to dock," Major Kira says, the irritation in her voice obvious.

Captain Sisko puts his head in his hands.

"Today of all days he decides to pay us a visit. On screen."

"Benjamin!" the Cardassian says with an almost convincing smile. "I hope this isn't an inconvenient time for a visit but my ship needs some minor repairs and my crew could use some shore leave. Mind if we come aboard?"

"Make yourself at home, Dukat, just stay away from the secure areas," Kira cuts in. "We have a lot going on right now and we don't need your brand of trouble"

"Nerys, you wound me. Trouble! I thought you enjoyed my visits. I know I certainly do. Perhaps you'll have dinner tonight with me and my daughter?"

"Give Ziyal my regrets. I'm washing my hair tonight," Kira says with no trace of authenticity. "You're cleared to doc on Pylon 3."

She unceremoniously cuts off the comm link, but the panel beeps again immediately.

"Sir, you're not going to believe this. I've got another request to dock ... from Kai Winn."

"You take care of it, Major," Sisko says. "I can tell I'm going to need another raktajino."


raerae (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): faust, mcmcsalot
shraeye (1): raerae
UmbrageOfSnow (1): UncleEurope

Not voting (9): Jimmmmm, LaLight, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, chickenwarlord

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players.

[shraeye]

I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

What.  What what?  e has no reason.  How on earth can you like it?

[raerae]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

Studying math is sure sign of being scum.

PS: You and shraeye should talk math (not in thread because snore city!) and see if you overlap.  #research

[shraeye]

There are no masons, no cop results, and I doubt this is partner interaction. Thus I believe that you have a genuine townread.

Mine is him soft-claiming not Gul feeling very casual, that and his general jokey-ness, which I believe comes from town!shraeye, based on previous games I read.

Any questions?

Yes.  I have so many questions.  You said "I like e's reasons".  He said "Why?"  You said "Well I just assumed you had some; here are MY reasons".

If you have no idea what e's reasons are......then why do you like them???

[shraeye]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

Studying math is sure sign of being scum.

PS: You and shraeye should talk math (not in thread because snore city!) and see if you overlap.  #research

Whatever; you can't get enough of mathtalk and you know it.

[Robz888]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

[Glooble]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

Does anyone like Day 1?

[WestCoastDidds]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

Does anyone like Day 1?

Not me

[Chickenwarlord]

Does anyone like Day 1?

I imagine it is fun for the mastermind watching biases play out. Not a big fan of first day shots in the dark myself - but with multiple scum teams might be a tad more viable.

[mcmcsalot]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

Oh sorry if I asked probing questions, I’m a really open person and forget sometimes it’s rude to request personal info. But thank you that does in fact help.

[mcmcsalot]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

All the cool kids have neopets accounts

There's one other important question:

Do you have a neopets account, and how many of them are named "Jessica?"

[mcmcsalot]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

This isn’t a meta it’s a failure to be care to be good at the game.

[mcmcsalot]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

All the cool kids have neopets accounts

There's one other important question:

Do you have a neopets account, and how many of them are named "Jessica?"

Quote fail

All the cool kids have neopets accounts

[WestCoastDidds]

Y’all are generation gapping me. I know nothing about the neopets.

But I used the Internet when Internet Relay Chat was a thing. I like being old...more money means better drinks.

[ashersky]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

This isn’t a meta it’s a failure to be care to be good at the game.

Nice.

Man, so many pages already.

vote: UoS[

[2.71828.....]

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

What was my reason that shraeye is town?

There are no masons, no cop results, and I doubt this is partner interaction. Thus I believe that you have a genuine townread.

Mine is him soft-claiming not Gul feeling very casual, that and his general jokey-ness, which I believe comes from town!shraeye, based on previous games I read.

Any questions?

PPE 1: There are no advantages of outing a cop. There are also no advantages of outing a non-cop. Please state if you wish for me to clarify.

Are you scum?

[faust]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

Does anyone like Day 1?

Yes, it is the best Day.

[2.71828.....]

I do like Dukat claiming, now I don't have to argue about it though.

Also we obviously can't control when people claim, but faust, shraeye and others (and Joth in the Ancillary game) are really pushing this thing where it's all up to the town. Obvious it is up to the individual players but it is very much worth discussing. I was serious when I said I thought it had hurt town in Ancillary Mafia, the only thing I was lying about there was being upset about it.

This game is open so for the new players, scum have no value in fake claiming here, since every single one of us has a unique name from a known list. Towns lately seem to love randomly claiming their roles at L-4 or whatever and it's hugely anti-town. Even if your role is not a likely NK target, you narrow the pool of targets for the roles scum are looking for and it hurts everyone else.

Mafia is a team game, and decisions each player makes effect their whole team.

I don't know where this argument is coming from, but multiple players across multiple games are saying things with similar language so it's getting to be kind of a meme and I really think it's bad play that we should clamp down on.

Only town says "I like this one person claiming" then "claiming hurts town"

[2.71828.....]

Down to 15 for my lynch pool. D1 is awesome!

[2.71828.....]

PPE 1: Because I have an uncanny ability to see the future; with this, I can predict that e won't flip his townread, and I expect to strenghten mine as well. I might be reading too much into this, being early D1 and all, but I use all information we have available.

Wait, what does this mean?

[faust]

Down to 15 for my lynch pool. D1 is awesome!

Should be 14. 17 - UoS - shraeye - Eddie

[MiX]

I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

What.  What what?  e has no reason.  How on earth can you like it?

Not THIS again...do I have to explain my thought process, getting lynched in the process? Well, here goes...

E said he had a townread on shraeye. Seeing as I've played with him and read some of his past games, I went to see if I, too, got a townread from reading shraeye closer. I found out that, yes, I did, even if not as much as E's "conf!town". Thus, I assumed his reasons to townread shraeye were the same as mine.

Happy?

Are you scum?

No.

[2.71828.....]

Down to 15 for my lynch pool. D1 is awesome!

Should be 14. 17 - UoS - shraeye - Eddie

Why Eddie?  Because they claimed a role that will likely never be NKed?  Not good enough for me.

You know what is good enough for me though?  The fact that I haven't played with them before.  In the same vein lets also add MiX, raerae, and chicken to the non-D1 lynch list.

Down to 11!

Speaking of chicken, where are they?

[2.71828.....]

I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

What.  What what?  e has no reason.  How on earth can you like it?

Not THIS again...do I have to explain my thought process, getting lynched in the process? Well, here goes...

E said he had a townread on shraeye. Seeing as I've played with him and read some of his past games, I went to see if I, too, got a townread from reading shraeye closer. I found out that, yes, I did, even if not as much as E's "conf!town". Thus, I assumed his reasons to townread shraeye were the same as mine.

Happy?

Are you scum?

No.

Wait, we played together?  which game?  And why don't I remember it?  Losing my memory....no good at all.

Good news though is that you are back in the D1 lynch pool!

[MiX]

@Robz888, I have a strong urge to slap you into doing setup stuff, but I fear I might fail...anyway my vote's already in a better place.

@mcmc, those are good questions, I'm glad you asked. It's not rude, but I'm not saying more.

@Chickenwarlord, get a signature or something that we can search for to see all of your posts, it helps and I'm sure DatSwan will say the same when he actually gets to the game.

@E, I'm pretty sure scum!UoS can say that they're happy someone claimed and simultaneously say that claims hurts town, especially when the claim that happened is the only good claim to do immediately.

PPE 2: If we kill Uncle now, UB will get Hated Godfather, which is pretty bad. Chicken already posted...that reminds me, @Chickenwarlord, get a picture, makes skimming much easier.

And I meant I played with shraeye...I knew that was going to get ambiguous, but I was sure you had memory 

[2.71828.....]

I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

What.  What what?  e has no reason.  How on earth can you like it?

Not THIS again...do I have to explain my thought process, getting lynched in the process? Well, here goes...

E said he had a townread on shraeye. Seeing as I've played with him and read some of his past games, I went to see if I, too, got a townread from reading shraeye closer. I found out that, yes, I did, even if not as much as E's "conf!town". Thus, I assumed his reasons to townread shraeye were the same as mine.

Happy?

Are you scum?

No.

Also, only getting lynched if the thought process is scummy.  Which here I would say is fairly close to that.  Enough to build a fool-proof D1 lynch case (as all D1 lynch cases are)

[Awaclus]

Y’all are generation gapping me. I know nothing about the neopets.

But I used the Internet when Internet Relay Chat was a thing. I like being old...more money means better drinks.

IRC is a thing.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sigh...okay, okay...

18+, Europe, College, studying math.

Did that answer your question? I won't get into more specifics.

For hobbies, well, where are we, right? Except I started playing it in Tabletop Simulator, not IRL.

Relevant things would be:

1) Are you a native English speaker? Your use of "College" and "math" marks you out as very unlikely to be from the UK. I think you're probably a fluent non-native rather than an American studying abroad, but the distinction could be relevant if trying to read a lot into your posts later.

2) What timezone are you in? It's useful to know when deadlines fall in timezones where a player can or can't be present. In general, US-evening deadlines suck for Europe-based players. I'm a night own based in the UK, so I'm at forum time plus five, but offset a couple of hours west because I don't really like mornings and try to minimise my exposure :-P

Bonus point: I can barely play Dominion... I'm here solely for the Mafia :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, hi everyone! There are several names I don't recognise here, possibly because I haven't really read many of the games I haven't played in myself.

Just to get it out of the way early: my preferred pronoun is they/them. I get really frustrated at people going with "default he", though thankfully that is more rare here than it used to be, I think :-)

[ashersky]

Is MiX a veteran from somewhere else?  Plays with a lot of confidence, which I auto-read as scummy when I'm not familiar with them.

Robz is a great D1 lynch, but also a useful player later in the game, so it's a toss up there.

Every mcmc post has felt like a good post, which means he's scum.

SA is being nice and hasn't yet analyzed anything, which means they're scum.

Basically everyone is scummy, no town reads for anyone.  That can't be right, right?

[SpaceAnemone]

As for the question of posting recommendations for how roles should be played, I absolutely think it's a useful pro-town thing to do. As someone who likes playing in a collaborative setting (which isn't generally possible for town, except as masons or something), it's good to hear others' ideas about how a role should be used. Not only that, but I think it's also useful to see what certain people are or aren't pushing for in terms of role optimization, because that can often help reads too.

If scums feel they have to contribute to discussion optimal play and will get called out for things that aren't good for town, then they have fewer opportunities to hide scummy play behind "personal right to decide", and are obliged to contribute town-positive ideas or to expose themselves as not working solely in town's interest.

[MiX]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

Does anyone like Day 1?

Do you? Answer honestly please.

1) Are you a native English speaker? Your use of "College" and "math" marks you out as very unlikely to be from the UK. I think you're probably a fluent non-native rather than an American studying abroad, but the distinction could be relevant if trying to read a lot into your posts later.

2) What timezone are you in? It's useful to know when deadlines fall in timezones where a player can or can't be present. In general, US-evening deadlines suck for Europe-based players. I'm a night own based in the UK, so I'm at forum time plus five, but offset a couple of hours west because I don't really like mornings and try to minimise my exposure :-P

No. +0, so forum+5. I hope you can determine where I am with this information...

Is MiX a veteran from somewhere else?  Plays with a lot of confidence, which I auto-read as scummy when I'm not familiar with them.

Sucks that I gave this information in <ongoing game>...I've played in Tabletop Simulator, which is essencially quick mafia: days are minutes and the game ends in an hour because maximum players are 10.

Basically everyone is scummy, no town reads for anyone.  That can't be right, right?

Worst case scenario there's 6 scum, which is a lot. We know there's at least 4, you mentioned 4 people, so that seems to work out, yes. But replace me with yourself, of course...

[SpaceAnemone]

SA is being nice and hasn't yet analyzed anything, which means they're scum.

I had a posted VLA up till two hours ago. I'm literally only just coming into the game now.. politeness dictates I should say hi to the new players and do introductory stuff before jumping in with analyses. I haven't even configured the vote counter for this game yet.

Also, when do I manage to scrape together enough solid info to do any real analysis D1? I'm a D3+ player :-)

[Jimmmmm]

Just dropping in to say hi. Will hopefully catch up tomorrow.

[WestCoastDidds]

Y’all are generation gapping me. I know nothing about the neopets.

But I used the Internet when Internet Relay Chat was a thing. I like being old...more money means better drinks.

IRC is a thing.

Really? Still? It literally feels like that was a million years ago.

[WestCoastDidds]

By way of introduction. This is my 6th game...2 newbie games, two RMM, and one guillotine game, but before that I’d never even heard of mafia.. I’m a she or they, I’m an hour behind forum time, I get up early and go to bed early, I’m generally WCD or Didds, and I’m prone to fluffy chatting and newb mistakes...I’m working on correcting one of those.

I’ve never played with MiX, Raerae, shraeye, chicken, or Jimmm. Eddie’s first game was my first game so I was there with faust, UoS, and LL when he went from Uncle to Eddie.

[Glooble]

My meta is I’m useless at setup stuff and just kind of hate day 1 in general.

Does anyone like Day 1?

Do you? Answer honestly please.

I usually hate it. There’s nothing worthwhile to analyze but you still need to find someone to lynch. The game gets much more interesting to me when there’s something real to analyze- by which I mean flips and eventually maybe claims, investigative results, that sort of thing.

I think it’s important everyone contribute to day one because you need time to develop reads on people and things people say while awkwardly trying to find something to talk about can be useful later on when given context by concrete information.

[shraeye]

PPE 1: Because I have an uncanny ability to see the future; with this, I can predict that e won't flip his townread, and I expect to strenghten mine as well. I might be reading too much into this, being early D1 and all, but I use all information we have available.

Wait, what does this mean?

Easy, he's got precognition.  You can google that for more info if you want.

Down to 15 for my lynch pool. D1 is awesome!

Should be 14. 17 - UoS - shraeye - Eddie

And we can add Joth to that pool too!

Speaking of chicken, where are they?

Maybe they're......chicken 

politeness dictates...

politeness schmoliteness

I’m prone to fluffy chatting and newb mistakes...I’m working on correcting one of those.

Ooh, which one?

[shraeye]

Not THIS again...do I have to explain my thought process, getting lynched in the process? Well, here goes...

E said he had a townread on shraeye. Seeing as I've played with him and read some of his past games, I went to see if I, too, got a townread from reading shraeye closer. I found out that, yes, I did, even if not as much as E's "conf!town". Thus, I assumed his reasons to townread shraeye were the same as mine.

Happy?

Yeah, actually very happy.

[shraeye]

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

Nope, not at all

Is MiX a veteran from somewhere else?  Plays with a lot of confidence, which I auto-read as scummy when I'm not familiar with them.

Robz is a great D1 lynch, but also a useful player later in the game, so it's a toss up there.

Every mcmc post has felt like a good post, which means he's scum.

SA is being nice and hasn't yet analyzed anything, which means they're scum.

Basically everyone is scummy, no town reads for anyone.  That can't be right, right?

You know what's a bad idea?  Basing reads on oversimplifications of metas.

[Awaclus]

Y’all are generation gapping me. I know nothing about the neopets.

But I used the Internet when Internet Relay Chat was a thing. I like being old...more money means better drinks.

IRC is a thing.

Really? Still? It literally feels like that was a million years ago.

I used it this year, and I also frequent a Discord server which uses Discord bots and IRC bots to sync with IRC because a lot of people prefer to use IRC instead of Discord.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I love Day 1. It's the best day.

And I know faust agrees with me, which is a big part of why I'm voting him. No, I did not miss the unvote.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The biggest reason for Day 1s to be useless is when a majority of the town is convinced Day 1s are useless and self-fulfilling-prophecy themselves into not getting any good reads out of it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm on IRC right now.

[Robz888]

Let's quicklynch someone so we can get to Day 2. Who's up?

[raerae]

Let's quicklynch someone so we can get to Day 2. Who's up?

You want to volunteer??

[MiX]

Let's quicklynch someone so we can get to Day 2. Who's up?

That'll take a lot of votes...but you can sheep me (raerae) if you want, seems to be the most productive wagon right now.

Currently rereading a lot of past games to see everyone's town and scum meta, hopefully I can come up with something good.

PPE 1: Look who showed up!

[raerae]

We could fast! How about no lunch today? I know shraeye is down.

[MiX]

We could fast! How about no lunch today? I know shraeye is down.

No lynch means what UB becomes is random, because we'll probably have 2 deaths. This is the worst outcome.

...but last time I said something about the setup I was wrong. So maybe I miscalculated something? Can anyone confirm the above makes sense?

[faust]

We could fast! How about no lunch today? I know shraeye is down.

No lynch means what UB becomes is random, because we'll probably have 2 deaths. This is the worst outcome.

...but last time I said something about the setup I was wrong. So maybe I miscalculated something? Can anyone confirm the above makes sense?

What the UB becomes is random anyway. You mean the rest doesn't know what they become? I doubt that should influence our decision.

[MiX]

We could fast! How about no lunch today? I know shraeye is down.

No lynch means what UB becomes is random, because we'll probably have 2 deaths. This is the worst outcome.

...but last time I said something about the setup I was wrong. So maybe I miscalculated something? Can anyone confirm the above makes sense?

What the UB becomes is random anyway. You mean the rest doesn't know what they become? I doubt that should influence our decision.

Going over the scenarios in my head, I think you're right... There's less information for town, but also for scum: if a cop and a non-cop flip, and he gets non-cop, scum might need to NK him in case he became cop, in which case he deflected a NK from the real cops... I thought I was better at solving setups than this, maybe it's just really good and unbreakable...

The only downside I see is that scum!UB might fakeclaim getting one role with UB while actually getting another. But they would lie about their targets and results anyway, right?

Anyway, assuming the worst, we have 6 scum in 18 players: those are LyLo odds, which are...pretty good, in my opinion. Besides, lynching town (which is the downside of lynching D1) means scum need to target themselves, so overall we would get more dead scum and same dead town, which is obviously a positive. Unless scum want to play endgame multiball...what has happened in other multiball games, do scum try to kill the other team or do they just target town? I would assume they would target each other, thus forcing balance, prisoner's dilemma is strong here.

[Glooble]

The traditional argument against no lynch is that the scum still get a kill which is guaranteed to be town, but town is denied a kill which has a chance of being scum. With two teams, though, there is still a chance each nk will be scum from the opposite faction.

I’m not a good math person, but I’m going to do some math anyway just cause I’m bored. Basically we have either 4 or 6 scum. So if the lynch were completely random it would be either a 22% or a 33% chance of hitting scum. Not great odds, but not lynching is a 0% chance.

If we no lynch and we have a Maquis and Mirror Universe team, then each scum team has a 20% chance of hitting the other team (barring roleblocker/doctor shenanigans.) If we have a changeling, the changeling has a 17.6% chance of hitting scum, and the scum team has a 5.88% chance of hitting the changeling (which won’t kill them anyway cause bulletproof.)

If we end up lynching town and we have Maquis and Mirror Universe teams, then each scum team has a 21.4% chance of hitting the other scum team (again barring a lucky protective role.) If we have a changeling, then the changeling has a 18.75% chance to hit scum and the scum team has a 7% chance to uselessly hit the changeling.

If we lynch scum and have two scum teams, the team we hit has a 20% chance of hitting scum and the team we didn’t hit only has a 14.28% chance of hitting scum. If we lynch scum and have a changeling the changeling has a 12.5% chance to hit scum. If we lynch the changeling we hit the jackpot and of course the scum team has 0% of hitting scum (but that’s more than balanced out by the fact that the changeling has a 0% chance of hitting town.

Not sure what I was trying to prove here, but I did all this math and now I don’t want to delete it. Maybe Space or somebody can take this ball and run with it and come up with some more immediately useful numbers.

So long story short, much higher chance there’s some scum dead on day 2 if we lynch than if we don’t. Killing scum is killing scum and killing town slightly increases the odds that scum kills scum. Obviously the worst case scenario is worse if we lynch (three dead town as opposed to 2.) That’s the trade off. I lean towards lynching.

PPE: 1

[2.71828.....]

Let's quicklynch someone so we can get to Day 2. Who's up?

I am up for it.

Let's lynch faust.

[2.71828.....]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

[Uncleeurope]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

Time to mass claim.



Then we no lynch.

Come on everybody, let’s do this.

[MiX]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

Time to mass claim.



Then we no lynch.

Come on everybody, let’s do this.

Please use your ICness this day to do productive things instead of jokes please.

Vote places, question people, I don't know; go all out, you're not dying today, that's for sure.

[Uncleeurope]

People’s trust in me is unaffected by my claim, I am hardly an IC, and the primary reason for me not being lynched today is to not hurt another player, who might even be scum for all we know.

It’s kind of flimsy, honestly.

And I have a vote in a place. I like it where it’s at.

[Glooble]

vote: MiX

I happen to like jokes.

[raerae]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

Time to mass claim.



Then we no lynch.

Come on everybody, let’s do this.

Please use your ICness this day to do productive things instead of jokes please.

Vote places, question people, I don't know; go all out, you're not dying today, that's for sure.

Disagree, never stop joking. Sprinkle it with serious. Or do whatever you want that makes the game fun for you.

[shraeye]

We could fast! How about no lunch today? I know shraeye is down.

I'm diggity down.

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

Naaaah; it'll be fun!!

[Glooble]

vote: shraeye

Not liking jokes isn't actually scummy, but I think being down for a no lynch even after all my glorious math is.

[MiX]

We could fast! How about no lunch today? I know shraeye is down.

I'm diggity down.

Do I need to present mine and Glooble's reasons for why no lynch is bad? Or do you just like to play contrarian?

Can someone answer this? I'm afraid it was buried in my other post:

what has happened in other multiball games, do scum try to kill the other team or do they just target town? I would assume they would target each other, thus forcing balance, prisoner's dilemma is strong here.

PPE 1: That's just shraeye being shraeye, really...I'm pretty sure that's coherent with the game I've reread, if my memory serves me right.

[shraeye]

Nah, I know from trying many years ago that if you look at the probabilities, it says lynching is slightly better.  But that's assuming everything under the sun is completely random and not affected at all by reads, scum tactics, Bayesian conditioning on all the other nuances that we couldn't possibly calculate.

It's wrong to think it's a "well 53% utility is over 50% so that's obviously the only play" when all the probabilities are done under math-conditions instead of real-world conditions.

[Glooble]

Can someone answer this? I'm afraid it was buried in my other post:

what has happened in other multiball games, do scum try to kill the other team or do they just target town? I would assume they would target each other, thus forcing balance, prisoner's dilemma is strong here.

Well, the only multiball game I've played (as far as I remember) was Deep Space Nine mafia version one, which ended with one town and one player from each scum team. The surviving townplayer basically was playing kingmaker.

I was scum in that game. IIRC we tried to get the other scum team lynched, because it gave us towncred and made it look like we were scumhunting (because we were.) For nightkills, we killed people who we thought might be the other scum team, but also people who we thought might be powerful town. Of course that was closed set up. Now that all potential roles are known, I think if I were scum I would want to hit the other scum team. Most of the town PRs just aren't that threatening compared to the possibility of a nightkill.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

This. We're never no lynching here.

Also there is a ton of weird stuff about this setup, why is the theory stuff people want to talk about in Really Verbose Strategizing phase the most basic stuff?

[MiX]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

This. We're never no lynching here.

Also there is a ton of weird stuff about this setup, why is the theory stuff people want to talk about in Really Verbose Strategizing phase the most basic stuff?

If you have some insight on things we can talk about that are pro-town, by all means, state them. I've done my share of setup reading and theorizing, and so far my theories have been proven wrong by faust, so I don't have high hopes for the rest.

I also think the only thing that needed to be discussed D1 was the Hated part, and we got that out of the way...ah, and the UB, also taken care of.

Everything else will make people softclaim (slip) non-X, where X is whatever role we're talking about, like what happened to shraeye.

[Glooble]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

This. We're never no lynching here.

Also there is a ton of weird stuff about this setup, why is the theory stuff people want to talk about in Really Verbose Strategizing phase the most basic stuff?

What weird thing to you want to talk about, Snow?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Partly I was just finding it weird that people were bringing up the old No Lynch D1 discussion again and acting like they needed to find some theory stuff to talk about, but then weren't talking about anything interesting.

Like "let's make sure to discuss the setup" "Okay, what about it?" "Ummmm... should we No Lynch?"

It's weird. And don't take this the wrong way, MiX, but it's weird for you to talk about your calculations or whatever and then be speculating on the UB being random, like we'd want a cop to claim just so a UB could inherit it or something? I don't think that's what you're suggesting, but it just seems like you haven't put that much thought into this but are kind of acting like you have. And it is actually possible to have a game with no theory discussion, although probably not with this playerlist I guess.

(Also shraeye is wrong about how bad no lynching is, but that's also not worth getting into, it's just a SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET issue and I'm trying not to have that fight.)

[MiX]

Partly I was just finding it weird that people were bringing up the old No Lynch D1 discussion again and acting like they needed to find some theory stuff to talk about, but then weren't talking about anything interesting.

Like "let's make sure to discuss the setup" "Okay, what about it?" "Ummmm... should we No Lynch?"

It's weird. And don't take this the wrong way, MiX, but it's weird for you to talk about your calculations or whatever and then be speculating on the UB being random, like we'd want a cop to claim just so a UB could inherit it or something? I don't think that's what you're suggesting, but it just seems like you haven't put that much thought into this but are kind of acting like you have. And it is actually possible to have a game with no theory discussion, although probably not with this playerlist I guess.

(Also shraeye is wrong about how bad no lynching is, but that's also not worth getting into, it's just a SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET issue and I'm trying not to have that fight.)

I like your attempt to stimulate conversation: townpoints!

You're the one that's saying that we should discuss the setup, right? Did I miss anyone else say it?

What I wanted was for there to be a lynch D1, so UB's role would be public. That would also mean we could lynch free of claims, since even if someone claims to be a cop we can just lynch him and whoever's the UB becomes cop, so we won't lose any PR day 1. Also I meant "random" as in "we wouldn't know which PR UB became".

No theory discussion is actively bad for town, but we don't need to do everything D1. In fact I think it's detrimental to talk more about it now, because of the slips town will inevitebly make.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Other things worth saying at this time:

• Cops should aim for their scumreads rather than townreads, innocents are at best half useless and possibly completely useless
• Cops should only claim results on a guilty or if they are about to be lynched
• Crumbing roles is terrible here and should be avoided
• Crumbing innocent results should be kept pretty subtle, it's a much bigger deal to out yourself than for us to miss the crumb
• Sisko should target a scumread every night, hitting an NK well worth the risk of blocking town
• Sisko shouldn't claim if there are fewer NKs than expected, too many things can do that, but he should heavily suspect his previous night's target
• Bashir, Garak, Yates, and Winn should really be saving their shots for as late in the game as they think they can manage
• Garak really needs to crumb his bus driver targets if he uses that one (I would)

I cut a few things I didn't want to say, but everyone should best think about how to use their role to help town (especially scum)

GARAK
Biggest thing is probably that last one, Garak could die on the night he Bus Drives someone, and that casts a lot of suspicion on other PR usage, so in the event of Garak's death, we need to be able to look back and figure out who the targets were, to the point that it's probably worth figuring out who to target before the night starts. Best use of Bus Driver is to attempt to redirect an NK back onto scum, but scum want to kill other scum, so it's a bit complicated here. I'd propose Garak target his top 2 scumreads the night he Bus Drives: if both are scum and one is NKed it's a wash, but if 1 is scum and 1 is town, it potentially saves the town and takes out a scum, and that's more likely than the scum being shot and being redirected onto town, which is obviously possible but the saving town is significantly more likely than random.

Given all that, I think Garak should just make sure to always have a pretty unambiguous top 2 scumreads going into the night and redirect one into the other if he decides to use his shot that night. I think he should hold off on shooting (and not take the Lightning Rod power) as long as possible, but this would significantly limit how many PRs we have to worry about having been redirected and how much WIFOM scum can throw around about it.

To that end, I'm going to make a point of having a very clear top 2 scumreads every night and I think everyone else should as well. And since it's 1-shot, scum don't get any POE out of the hypoclaims here like they would with an ungated power.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think that's all I have to say about the setup, but no I wasn't the one pushing us to talk about the setup. I'd rather talk about how faust is scum and no one wants to think about why. I'm curious who picks up on what I'm thinking (other than faust) but it doesn't even seem like people care to think about this as a serious read right now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Does the Universal Backup inherit access to the Ferengi neighborhood if a Ferengi is the first to die?

[Uncleeurope]

I think that's all I have to say about the setup, but no I wasn't the one pushing us to talk about the setup. I'd rather talk about how faust is scum and no one wants to think about why. I'm curious who picks up on what I'm thinking (other than faust) but it doesn't even seem like people care to think about this as a serious read right now.

I refuse to play games I don’t know the rules to.

I also don’t know if I agree with the top two scumreads thing.

[MiX]

Wow. Okay that's a lot of info. UoS won't die today.

Sadly I'll need to go to bed now, so I'll just say this: Sisko should be treated as a cop and act like a cop. Does that make sense? Because it does to me.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

What's the downside?

Worried you won't have any scumreads?

[Uncleeurope]

What's the downside?

Worried you won't have any scumreads?

That argument makes no sense, everyone will have scum reads, even scum. Nah, it’s for something else.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I mean, you've already claimed so you're the safest person to talk about this with.

Everyone is going to have scumreads anyway, and assuming we aren't lying about scumreads (and town shouldn't be) it's really just about the optimal usage of the role anyway, minus whatever you lose based on the flip of the day's lynch, but that can be worked in as a conditional anyway.

i.e. if we lynch faust and he flips town, I'm really going to suspect e, but if he flips scum his partner is probably UE.

If Garak flips scum, obviously we don't trust that he stuck to this plan and so we have a whole bunch more WIFOM, but then we could never have done anything about that anyway.

[SpaceAnemone]

No. +0, so forum+5. I hope you can determine where I am with this information...

Your profile info already says Portugal, so I'll go with that!

[SpaceAnemone]

I mean, you've already claimed so you're the safest person to talk about this with.

Everyone is going to have scumreads anyway, and assuming we aren't lying about scumreads (and town shouldn't be) it's really just about the optimal usage of the role anyway, minus whatever you lose based on the flip of the day's lynch, but that can be worked in as a conditional anyway.

i.e. if we lynch faust and he flips town, I'm really going to suspect e, but if he flips scum his partner is probably UE.

If Garak flips scum, obviously we don't trust that he stuck to this plan and so we have a whole bunch more WIFOM, but then we could never have done anything about that anyway.

You're posting interesting ideas, but I'm not sure I agree 100%. The more you start allowing your statements to be conditioned on flips, the more info town has to give about the precise truthful state of their suspicion on everyone. While I don't see any big downside to picking two top scumreads, if you go further than that, you risk asking town to give scum too much information.

Also, the more complicated a scheme like this gets, the more likely you are to find uncooperative players.. and then there are arguments when people refuse to cooperate with what seem like a foolproof schemes to those who have a better grip on what's being asked. Then those people start looking scummy, when in fact they're possibly just overconfident in their own way of doing things.. I feel like I've been down that path a bunch of times before when trying to get people to agree with schemes that were optimised to get the most out of a claims process or something.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

That 2nd point is something I've struggled with all my life, going back to like 4th grade group projects.

If you can't explain a good idea in 2 sentences some people stop paying attention and decide not to cooperate. Drives me crazy.

But yeah, I think the 2 is fine really even if it's not conditional. But I wasn't really suggesting we should all do the conditional stuff every day anyway, I was more pointing out that it could be used when it comes up.

And Cops absolutely need not investigate the last person they said was their top scumread, but at some point over a day they are sure to have had a scumread, which is my whole point.

It's a claiming method that folds into normal play.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

UE, what do you think of faust so far? Do you have any read one way or another based on anything?

[Glooble]

I think that's all I have to say about the setup, but no I wasn't the one pushing us to talk about the setup. I'd rather talk about how faust is scum and no one wants to think about why. I'm curious who picks up on what I'm thinking (other than faust) but it doesn't even seem like people care to think about this as a serious read right now.

Okay I just reread everything faust has said this game and I can't see where you are coming from. I see the town logic in pushing Gul Dukat to claim. I even see the town logic in wanting to lynch him day one, forgetting about the UB, being reminded of the UB, then unvoting. I don't agree with it all, but none of it jumps out as scummy.

[Uncleeurope]

UE, what do you think of faust so far? Do you have any read one way or another based on anything?

Slight town in one light, slight scum in another.

[Uncleeurope]

UE, what do you think of faust so far? Do you have any read one way or another based on anything?

Slight town in one light, slight scum in another.

I probably should mention that the town light is the light I am using.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Thanks for playing my game

[jotheonah]

Does the Universal Backup inherit access to the Ferengi neighborhood if a Ferengi is the first to die?

Yes. The setup role is done such that the information the Ferengi have holds true even if the UB joins them.

[shraeye]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

This. We're never no lynching here.

Also there is a ton of weird stuff about this setup, why is the theory stuff people want to talk about in Really Verbose Strategizing phase the most basic stuff?

Probably because I'm here and raerae is here and both of us think nolynch is viable.  I remain unconvinced by math (google the McNamara fallacy) or by people simply saying "We are never doing this. It's the worst." (google 'proof by assertion')

Embrace the possibility of a Day1 no lynch, it's more fun than you think.

[raerae]

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

This. We're never no lynching here.

Also there is a ton of weird stuff about this setup, why is the theory stuff people want to talk about in Really Verbose Strategizing phase the most basic stuff?

Probably because I'm here and raerae is here and both of us think nolynch is viable.  I remain unconvinced by math (google the McNamara fallacy) or by people simply saying "We are never doing this. It's the worst." (google 'proof by assertion')

Embrace the possibility of a Day1 no lynch, it's more fun than you think.

Have you ever successfully convinced anybody of a No Lynch?

[shraeye]

Nope; but I'll never stop trying.

[raerae]

Nope; but I'll never stop trying.

Your optimism is almost as endearing as it is infuriating.

[faust]

I tried to hold back and not engage in this, but Someone Is Wrong On The Internet Syndrome is too strong.

• Cops should aim for their scumreads rather than townreads, innocents are at best half useless and possibly completely useless
• Cops should only claim results on a guilty or if they are about to be lynched

This is some really obvious stuff that applies to Cops in every game, but ok, we have a newbie I suppose.

The some points that are largely fine. But this:

GARAK

is plain bad advice. Bus Driver should only ever be used to protect a claimed Cop or IC. So target them, swap with another player (that you think is scum). The whole "target 2 scummy players" thing gives scum way too much leeway to use it in an anti-town manner. And if everyone understands that this may happen with claimed Cops, then that means think twice about targeting them.

Question that I have not seen answered yet:

How does the SK Strongman interact with Bus Driving?

It would be nice if all role clarifications would be added to the setup post for easy reference.[/list]

[MiX]

Nope; but I'll never stop trying.

Even if No Lynch was a viable option, you shouldn't try to convince people of it, that'll destroy D1 if no one wants a lynch. Since it's not even a good option, it's anti-town to propose that idea. Come back near deadline, then it will be useful.

The UB-Ferengi information is very interesting...

I fail to see why Garak should target 2 scumreads: shouldn't it be 1 townread and 1 scumread? Otherwise it's unlikely scum will target a scummy-looking person, right? Maybe the multiball makes that a thing?

PPE 1: There we go, I say something, faust beats me to it.

[LaLight]

hey guys, was moving to another apartment and now I finally am here

[LaLight]

what's going on

[Jimmmmm]

what's going on

I have no idea yet. We could just start our own conversation.

[faust]

i.e. if we lynch faust and he flips town, I'm really going to suspect e, but if he flips scum his partner is probably UE.

Is that just a random example or do you actually believe that?

[2.71828.....]

what's going on

Robz is playing up his meta in thread, so likely town
UoS is trying real hard to be helpful, so likely town
There are a bunch of people I haven't played with before, at least one is likely scum, probably MiX, but let's lynch them another time
I created a scum read on faust for fun

Oh and someone claimed something that means absolutely nothing.

[Chickenwarlord]

The odds we have on a first day lynch are anywhere from 22-33% depending on the loadout we got. These SEEM like decent stab in the dark odds, but right now it seems unlikely that we'll reach any sort of agreement on who to target. I'm all for experimenting with no lynch and hoping scum bump toes in the night.

[MiX]

Easier to get dead scum if we lynch, therefore lynching is good. Yes, I do stand by that.

Can anyone tell me what scum!raerae does? I'm finishing up my metaread on e and I wanted to go to faust next...

[2.71828.....]

I'm finishing up my metaread on e and I wanted to go to faust next...

That sounds scary. Are you reading recent games or old ones?

[faust]

The odds we have on a first day lynch are anywhere from 22-33% depending on the loadout we got. These SEEM like decent stab in the dark odds, but right now it seems unlikely that we'll reach any sort of agreement on who to target. I'm all for experimenting with no lynch and hoping scum bump toes in the night.

Hi! Obligatory round of newbie stuff:

Make sure you make a post in the forums somewhere outside the forum games section, this will prevent having to do a captcha each time you post.
Would be nice for finding your posts if you added you ShuffleIT Username or a distinguishable signature to your profile.
Can you tell us about your prior experience and what your preferred pronouns are?

[LaLight]

what's going on

Robz is playing up his meta in thread, so likely town
UoS is trying real hard to be helpful, so likely town
There are a bunch of people I haven't played with before, at least one is likely scum, probably MiX, but let's lynch them another time
I created a scum read on faust for fun

Oh and someone claimed something that means absolutely nothing.

yeah, I don't want to lynch MiX, not yet. Robz lately is paying his meta in the thread trying to seem town but usually ends up as scum. hmmm

let me reread the whole thread in a couple of days. sorry, I am swamped in things now. I will try to react to recent posts, but old ones will have to wait. Also, can anyone wrap up what happened in the original game if they haven't already? I slightly remember reading it, it was amusing, but I don't remember anything at all

[jotheonah]

How does the SK Strongman interact with Bus Driving?

It would be nice if all role clarifications would be added to the setup post for easy reference.[/list]

That’s a good idea. I’ll add those later on this morning.

The SK’s kill can be bus-driven or redirected, and it is trumped by Kasidy’s commute. It gets through Bashir’s doctor shot and scum!Kira’s bulletproof.

[raerae]

Easier to get dead scum if we lynch, therefore lynching is good. Yes, I do stand by that.

Can anyone tell me what scum!raerae does? I'm finishing up my metaread on e and I wanted to go to faust next...

My friend, I last played three years ago or more, even I don't remember my own meta, if you insist on relying on that you're best off using Philosopher's as your meta-test for me.

[MiX]

Can't use ongoing game (wo)man...especially for your scum meta.

I'll need to get home to consolidate my thoughts on e, but I just see towny things, even if minor.

Vote: faust, temp vote while I read him / finish my read on e

That reminds me, @e, I'm using recent games but had to go deeper for scum!e, just need to read 1 older town!e game to see if the changes are alignment-indicative or not.

[jotheonah]

The opening setup post has been updated with a bunch of role clarifications. Never run an open setup, friends. It's entirely too much work. Vote count this afternoon.

[Glooble]

The opening setup post has been updated with a bunch of role clarifications. Never run an open setup, friends. It's entirely too much work. Vote count this afternoon.

One more question- what happens if Bareil is scum and inherits the copping ability for his own faction?

[mcmcsalot]

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

[WestCoastDidds]

hey guys, was moving to another apartment and now I finally am here

That’s a hassle, but potentially awesome. Moving is hard, so I hope you like the new space. And that the cats like it. Because priorities.

[WestCoastDidds]

The odds we have on a first day lynch are anywhere from 22-33% depending on the loadout we got. These SEEM like decent stab in the dark odds, but right now it seems unlikely that we'll reach any sort of agreement on who to target. I'm all for experimenting with no lynch and hoping scum bump toes in the night.

It seems unlikely that we’ll reach a consensus, yet it usually happens. Kind of wild! We still have lots of time to interact and pay attention so even if it seems impossible that half of us would agree to lynch one person now, we will likely get there by the deadline. Partly because most of us (based on my limited knowledge of a handful of games) will want a lynch, so as it gets closer to the deadline there will be some converging. And how we converge (or not) helps us have more to analyze in D2.

[faust]

Vote: Robz

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.2

With the threat of infiltration looming, Odo visits his go-to number one suspect at his bar. He finds Morn sitting in his usual spot, talking Quark's ear off as usual.

"Sorry to interrupt that fascinating story, Morn, but I need to have a word with Quark."

"I always have time for my favorite non-customer," Quark says, brightly but sarcastically. "Need a drink to stare at?"

"What I need is to know whether you've heard any rumbles about Maquis activity on the station."

"Everything's been pretty quiet to be honest," Quark replies. "In fact, if you ask me, it's bad for business. Everyone's suspicious, which means no one wants to let down their guard, which means no one wants to drink."

"Present company excluded," he adds, gesturing to Morn as the Lurian takes another gulp of his Saurian Brandy.

"I hope you catch the interlopers soon, Odo, I really do. My profit margins can't take another day of this."

"Hmmmph," Odo replies.


faust (3): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
2.71828..... (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (2): raerae, Glooble
UmbrageOfSnow (2): UncleEurope, ashersky
Robz888 (1): faust

Not voting (9): Jimmmmm, LaLight, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Robz888, Awaclus, chickenwarlord

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players. Day 1 ends at 8 a.m. forum time on Saturday, March 2.

One more question- what happens if Bareil is scum and inherits the copping ability for his own faction?

You get a cop you can't trust and he gets a power he can't use. (Well he can use it but it won't tell him anything he doesn't already know...)

[faust]

(Well he can use it but it won't tell him anything he doesn't already know...)

A Changeling UB could use it to find Odo!

[Robz888]

I’ll sheep mcmc’s vote on E, am also getting a funny vibe from him though I can’t really describe it.

Faust is making a lot of sense, which isn’t surprising. We should not lynch Faust, obviously.

Someone asked what happened the last time this game was run. A big difference was that it was a closed setup and we spent a ton of time trying to guess who could be scum based on their role claim, because we thought the two scum sides had to be roughly equal in power and one seemed stronger than the other. We ended up in a fairly enthralling stand off, it’s well worth re reading for entertainment’s sake.

vote: E

[Awaclus]

I'm a bit VLA for the following few days.

[Glooble]

Rereading e:

There are 24 posts. 2 are before the game starts. Then we get RVS vote on LaLight, townread on shraeye based on nothing (joke?), and a bit of skepticism of faust for wanting Gul Dukat to claim. Votes faust after faust votes him but we're basically still RVS I think. Understandably confused about Eddie. This "basically an IC" thing feels like a dig at me last game, is that right e?


Lots of bickering with faust. Continues to insist shraeye is town for no reason, but I still think its a joke. Makes a list of folks not to lynch. Doesn't remember if he's played with shraeye.


MiX sheeping e's townread seems scummier than e's very insistent townread to me.


Then he says to lynch faust again, says no lynch is very bad (I agree) then he summarizes the day and makes conclusions I don't agree with.

what's going on

Robz is playing up his meta in thread, so likely town

 No he's not, he played exactly like this day one in Ancillary Mafia and he was scum.

UoS is trying real hard to be helpful, so likely town

Never played a day one with UoS, so I don't know what he's usually like. His big advice post seemed mostly towny to me, some of it is kind of Mafia 101 but some of it is setup specific and things a town PR might not have thought of that scum probably would prefer they didn't. All in all it doesn't give me a super strong read on him either way.

Oh and someone claimed something that means absolutely nothing.

It means we should treat UncleEurope at L-2 as if he's at L-1. It means we should be midful of the possibility that he could screw us over in the endgame (If he's town.) It certainly doesn't mean absolutely nothing.

Okay, so that was e, so far, this game. Doesn't jump out to me as scummy, but it kinda feels like he was in the jokey RVS mindset until like really recently. I'm still happy with my shraeye vote for now. Certainly open to other options as the day progresses.

[MiX]

I don't think you needed all that detail to see that e's towny, it's so early that a "reread" is pretty simple. He's been engaging various points in a generally towny way, the only thing that's off is his activity, which is higher than usual, but I believe that would come more from town!e anyway. Wish I had more concrete things, but e doesn't seem to do much D1, ever...

Now, to UoS' #224 post:

I just realized that we have a completely new player, so every single one of these points is necessary to guide him.

It's better to say who we would target as Garak than say what our town/scum reads, that's much less information for scum and it lets Garak be much more flexible.

Why is faust scum? Why is everyone assuming this? I see nothing, but I'll reread his past games to be sure.

MiX sheeping e's townread seems scummier than e's very insistent townread to me.

If you put it in relative terms, yes (since e's townread is towny and mine's null), but I really see no problem in townreading shraeye, they match everything I've seen from previous town!shraeye games and nothing of scum!shraeye. In fact, the more he talks, the townier he gets.

@Chickenwarlord, how would you describe town!you and scum!you? How much have you played? How much do you know? What are your scum buddies? Right now you haven't said much...


Well that's my reread from an actual computer, did I miss anything?

[MiX]

Now that <ongoing game> is over, I can just give faust all the townpoints I want, because they're pretty much doing the same here, at least from what I remember. I'll need to reread that game to get a feel of everyone who was there.

On the other hand, I gained a scumread on Uncle, but that's irrelevent, so whatever.

I was rereading scum!faust games (since I already knew some town!faust games), and my conclusion is that I have no idea how to read him. He just seems to do the same thing as town and scum.

On the other hand, I don't like Robz' vote on e where faust is a clearly better wagon (well, it's bigger, and he wants D1 to end right?), so until he doesn't go there:

FoS: Robz888 (treat this as a vote that won't lower faust's wagon)

That vote might be contradictory with my townread on faust, but I actually have no reason to believe that's not what scum!faust does, since I have...no idea what scum!faust's tells are. Does anyone know?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

i.e. if we lynch faust and he flips town, I'm really going to suspect e, but if he flips scum his partner is probably UE.

Is that just a random example or do you actually believe that?

It was a semi-random example, I wanted an example and I tried to think of something that kind of made sense off the top of my head, was sort of hoping someone would jump on me for "lining up mislynches" over it. On reflection I don't feel like e's vote on you is any scummier if you're town, or really particularly scummy at all. But the UE as a possible partner interaction thing is more of a real thing I'd suspect upon your scum flip, but like a point against rather than vote-worthy all by itself.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

yeah, I don't want to lynch MiX, not yet. Robz lately is paying his meta in the thread trying to seem town but usually ends up as scum. hmmm

So why are you scumreading Robz, Lalight?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Part of my brain still thinks Robz and I are the same person, it's weird.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I fail to see why Garak should target 2 scumreads: shouldn't it be 1 townread and 1 scumread? Otherwise it's unlikely scum will target a scummy-looking person, right? Maybe the multiball makes that a thing?

Exactly, scum would prefer to kill the other scumteam. Coincidentally town would prefer for scum to kill the other scum, so what scum really want is to kill the other scum while not getting killed themselves.

Protecting Jake or a Cop is also a reasonable plan, but in the case of the IC, we don't really care about other actions getting redirected (and the other player should be top scumread) and in the case of a cop I'd say your read of the cop should trump protecting them. Remember, there is no guarantee cops are town and no guarantee town cops are a threat to any scum actually in the game.

I know I'll be inclined to let a cop that claims too early die and try to busvig scum, and I think we should allow Garak, assuming I'm not Garak, to have that option and set up an easy crumbing strategy that can be followed without agreeing to it.

[raerae]

Part of my brain still thinks Robz and I are the same person, it's weird.

Still thinks?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I subbed in for Robz in the last game, and kept rereading the game. Not that Robz said a lot, but it gets in your head.

[raerae]

I subbed in for Robz in the last game, and kept rereading the game. Not that Robz said a lot, but it gets in your head.

Gotcha!  For what it's worth, I have an inappropriate amount of trust for you because I look at your name and think, "Mods can't lie!"

[MiX]

I fail to see why Garak should target 2 scumreads: shouldn't it be 1 townread and 1 scumread? Otherwise it's unlikely scum will target a scummy-looking person, right? Maybe the multiball makes that a thing?

Exactly, scum would prefer to kill the other scumteam. Coincidentally town would prefer for scum to kill the other scum, so what scum really want is to kill the other scum while not getting killed themselves.

Protecting Jake or a Cop is also a reasonable plan, but in the case of the IC, we don't really care about other actions getting redirected (and the other player should be top scumread) and in the case of a cop I'd say your read of the cop should trump protecting them. Remember, there is no guarantee cops are town and no guarantee town cops are a threat to any scum actually in the game.

I know I'll be inclined to let a cop that claims too early die and try to busvig scum, and I think we should allow Garak, assuming I'm not Garak, to have that option and set up an easy crumbing strategy that can be followed without agreeing to it.

Okay, let me see if I get this straight...Scum want to target other scum, and town wants the kill to go to said scum. So why would they busdrive them and someone else? There's an argument for "scum's removing their own scumteam when looking for scummy players", which is valid-ish, but still, if you successfully pick 2 scum with Garak, or 2 town, you effectively do nothing, and if otherwise...you increase the odds scum dies? Is that the reason? I think I can see that, but that's assuming scum's reads are worse than town's, which I suppose is true, given that scum have less scumreads...

All this doesn't change the fact that there's no reason to go by scumreads: I don't know about you, but I don't have a definitive order on who I find scummy (at least I didn't last time), maybe I have, say, 3 scumreads, but I'm not sure which ones are scummier (apart from where my vote is). Couldn't we just say "If I was Garak, I would bus drive X and Y"? Or is that too hard to coordinate?

If Garak should busdrive cops based on his reads, should he busdrive a town!cop (in his eyes)? I say yes, in which case always targetting 2 scumreads will backfire.

@UoS, does that mean you find Robz scummy? Either that or you're scum, but you've been pretty towny...

[SpaceAnemone]

That 2nd point is something I've struggled with all my life, going back to like 4th grade group projects.

If you can't explain a good idea in 2 sentences some people stop paying attention and decide not to cooperate. Drives me crazy.

Yup. They're not even usually malicious about it.. just disinterested.

Anyway, I don't think the "two scumreads" thing is so bad in general. I just need to spend long enough reading this game to develop reads!

[SpaceAnemone]

GARAK

is plain bad advice. Bus Driver should only ever be used to protect a claimed Cop or IC. So target them, swap with another player (that you think is scum).

Is your advice necessarily any better given that scummy players are likely to be targeted for an NK by another scum faction?

[Robz888]

Now that <ongoing game> is over, I can just give faust all the townpoints I want, because they're pretty much doing the same here, at least from what I remember. I'll need to reread that game to get a feel of everyone who was there.

On the other hand, I gained a scumread on Uncle, but that's irrelevent, so whatever.

I was rereading scum!faust games (since I already knew some town!faust games), and my conclusion is that I have no idea how to read him. He just seems to do the same thing as town and scum.

On the other hand, I don't like Robz' vote on e where faust is a clearly better wagon (well, it's bigger, and he wants D1 to end right?), so until he doesn't go there:

FoS: Robz888 (treat this as a vote that won't lower faust's wagon)

That vote might be contradictory with my townread on faust, but I actually have no reason to believe that's not what scum!faust does, since I have...no idea what scum!faust's tells are. Does anyone know?

I am just never going to support a faust lynch on Day 1, unless I'm overwhelmingly certain he is scum, which is an unlikely position for me to be in. The reason is his reads are significantly better than the average town player, which means he's worth preserving more than almost anyone else. Also, scum know this, and often shoot him at their first chance. Lets not do scums' job for them.

Honestly I would probably support no lynch over a faust lynch, even though I hate no lynching on Day 1.

[Jimmmmm]

My few thoughts so far:

-ash is Towny
-UoS is probably Towny
-shraeye is scummy
-count me against no-lynching

Vote: shraeye

[raerae]

My few thoughts so far:

-ash is Towny
-UoS is probably Towny
-shraeye is scummy
-count me against no-lynching

Vote: shraeye

Is shraeye scummy for suggesting a no lunch?

[Robz888]

No lynch is very bad, but I don't want to welcome shraeye back with a day 1 lynch. Same for raerae.

[raerae]

No lynch is very bad, but I don't want to welcome shraeye back with a day 1 lynch. Same for raerae.

Naw, let's kill him, I just want to know why first.

[Jimmmmm]

Is shraeye scummy for suggesting a no lunch?

No.

[Uncleeurope]

No lynch is very bad, but I don't want to welcome shraeye back with a day 1 lynch. Same for raerae.

Naw, let's kill him, I just want to know why first.

Bahaha

Priorities, amirite?

[raerae]

No lynch is very bad, but I don't want to welcome shraeye back with a day 1 lynch. Same for raerae.

Naw, let's kill him, I just want to know why first.

Bahaha

Priorities, amirite?

If true crime shows have taught me nothing else it's the importance of a good alibi or at least a good self-defense story!

@jimmmmmm, it's because he made a dad joke, isn't it? I'll take that as a yes and I fully support it.

But, in all seriousness, he's basically done nothing other than call for a no lynch and question MiX's ridiculousness so what's your reason?

[Swowl]

OK caught up. After all the hate of wall posting from the last couple games I am gonna forego it and just put it in my notes for me to enjoy.

Bullet Points:

- I do not think coming up with a no-lynch scenario is skummy. If anything, it is the opposite. I don't think skum would be bold enough in this set up to try to push something like that.

- What could be skummy... is agreeing with the original idea without further speculation.

- While I mostly agree with the consensus of "agreed upon towny players" to this point - I feel the need to point out that all discussion post RVS has been surrounding game set up mechanics... which is undoubtedly Skum's favorite topic of discussion. It stalls game play with info that everyone can conclude on their own accord and gives them to reply with said information making them seem like they have done a lot of insightful work... but really they just read the set up.

- For Gul, can someone help me out here? It reads:
"Gul Dukat - hated (stops working when it would take 1 or less vote to lynch) godfather" - So.... You are hated until you get to where you would be lynched and then it turns off... so you are not hated? Am I just being stupid?


And yeah everything else seems to be just usual Day 1 mish mash so far.

I see the potential argument for no lynch in this set up, but am against it. 

[Uncleeurope]

Hated works until it would take that many votes to work in total, like when three people are left alive, as far as I understand it.

[shraeye]

Here's the deal with no-lynch. 

Nope; but I'll never stop trying.

Even if No Lynch was a viable option, you shouldn't try to convince people of it, that'll destroy D1 if no one wants a lynch. Since it's not even a good option, it's anti-town to propose that idea. Come back near deadline, then it will be useful.

I'm not trying to get people to vote:nolynch right this minute. What I am heavily suggesting and will never stop suggesting is that no lynch is a viable end to Day1.  It should be in our arsenal.  There are 18 viable ends to the day (because lynching UncleEurope on Day1 is not an option).

There are people who are soooooo against no-lynch that they will literally vote for their biggest townread to ensure that "at least some lynch goes through."  That's extremist and absurd.  Less extreme, but equally absurd is people who will vote for regular townreads all in the name of #mustlynch.

Easier to get dead scum if we lynch, therefore lynching is good. Yes, I do stand by that.

Not just you, but others as well, quote statistics like they're Wayne Gretsky (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take).  sure the probability of a random choice hitting scum is 22%-33%, and the probability of a no-lynch hitting scum is 0%.  But that's not the point. 
A) LYNCHES ARE NOT RANDOM  (I literally can't stress this enough)
B) people act like the only metric worth measuring is is-scum-dead.  There is value in having town alive, and that has to be factored in if you insist on only using math. 


WestCoastDidds has a good point, but also mentions a wrong one people have

The odds we have on a first day lynch are anywhere from 22-33% depending on the loadout we got. These SEEM like decent stab in the dark odds, but right now it seems unlikely that we'll reach any sort of agreement on who to target. I'm all for experimenting with no lynch and hoping scum bump toes in the night.

It seems unlikely that we’ll reach a consensus, yet it usually happens. Kind of wild! We still have lots of time to interact and pay attention so even if it seems impossible that half of us would agree to lynch one person now, we will likely get there by the deadline. Partly because most of us (based on my limited knowledge of a handful of games) will want a lynch, so as it gets closer to the deadline there will be some converging. And how we converge (or not) helps us have more to analyze in D2.

We could very much reach a consensus; it happens a lot.  But please please please PLEASE for the love of all things coffee-related, do not converge JUST so a lynch will happen.  There could be days in the future where it is more essential to lynch, many factors affect stuff like this.  But Day1, in an 18 player game, with 2 scumteams, and multiple roles that can save....that's checks every single box on the "is it reasonable to nolynch" survey.

It INFURIATES me that people see ~25% vs. 0% and then just mindlessly echo "ALWAYS lynch, ALWAYS lynch, ALWAYS lynch".  The issue is much more intricate than ~25% vs 0%.
Ok, that's off my chest.  I swear I won't bring up no-lynching again for a while.

[shraeye]

yeah, I don't want to lynch MiX, not yet. Robz lately is paying his meta in the thread trying to seem town but usually ends up as scum. hmmm

Boooo for the lazy "read".  You have read enough games to realize Robz playing up is meta is what he does.  It's a Robz-tell.  So, yes, he hasn't been abducted and replaced by weasels.

I can't tell if that or this is the scummier vote:

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

[shraeye]

Ha, that prize goes to mcmc's, because as soon as I posted it I said "but LaLight didn't vote"

[shraeye]

I fail to see why Garak should target 2 scumreads: shouldn't it be 1 townread and 1 scumread? Otherwise it's unlikely scum will target a scummy-looking person, right? Maybe the multiball makes that a thing?

I know I'll be inclined to let a cop that claims too early die and try to busvig scum, and I think we should allow Garak, assuming I'm not Garak, to have that option and set up an easy crumbing strategy that can be followed without agreeing to it.

I disagreed with your first set of recommendations, and can't figure out what this means at all.  So put me in the camp of people who are now disinterested in following Umbrage-strategy.

[shraeye]

Why is faust scum? Why is everyone assuming this? I see nothing, but I'll reread his past games to be sure.

Everything else felt reactionary, but THIS is an interesting piece. 

MiX, who is assuming faust is scum?  Find me the quotes that compelled you to say this.

[shraeye]

Hey DatSwan!

If I told you there was scum in {mcmcs, Glooble, Umbrage, Awaclus, Jimmmm}, would you think I was right or wrong?

[faust]

Why is faust scum? Why is everyone assuming this? I see nothing, but I'll reread his past games to be sure.

Still you are voting for me...

[faust]

i.e. if we lynch faust and he flips town, I'm really going to suspect e, but if he flips scum his partner is probably UE.

Is that just a random example or do you actually believe that?

It was a semi-random example, I wanted an example and I tried to think of something that kind of made sense off the top of my head, was sort of hoping someone would jump on me for "lining up mislynches" over it. On reflection I don't feel like e's vote on you is any scummier if you're town, or really particularly scummy at all. But the UE as a possible partner interaction thing is more of a real thing I'd suspect upon your scum flip, but like a point against rather than vote-worthy all by itself.

See, that one I don't buy. If Eddie was scum and I his partner, and we decided to claim Gul Dukat, why on earth would I want to steal his thunder by proposing the plan before he ever had a chance to post?

[faust]

I fail to see why Garak should target 2 scumreads: shouldn't it be 1 townread and 1 scumread? Otherwise it's unlikely scum will target a scummy-looking person, right? Maybe the multiball makes that a thing?

Exactly, scum would prefer to kill the other scumteam. Coincidentally town would prefer for scum to kill the other scum, so what scum really want is to kill the other scum while not getting killed themselves.

No, scum wants to kill players at night that they cannot get lynched during the Day.

[shraeye]

wait, MiX is voting for you?  then that post is double suspicious.

[faust]

GARAK

is plain bad advice. Bus Driver should only ever be used to protect a claimed Cop or IC. So target them, swap with another player (that you think is scum).

Is your advice necessarily any better given that scummy players are likely to be targeted for an NK by another scum faction?

They're not. If a person is scummy, scum would much prefer to keep them around and lynch them the next Day, because that is one more lynch not on their team and might even give them towncred.

[shraeye]

I was about to vote for MiX, then I remembered that I promised myself less tunnelling. 

Mix, your thing with e's townread of me was weird, but I understood you better when you explained it.

Your thing with faust is now weird.  Can you explain what your vote is doing there? 

[ashersky]

I think faust is wrong here. In Multiball (and games with know night kills other than the scum team’s), scum want to remove that threat first. Lynchable vs. not is secondary. So I think here hitting “other scum or vig” is scum’s preference.

The problem with bus driving important roles or towny players is that you are providing an accidental lane to them being targeted at night, depending on your reads. Say you drive a cop with a scumread and different scum are shooting for said scum read (or just using crumbs to go for the cop). 

At the least, you need everyone to crumb a la snow’s idea, to provide cover.

I think directing the drive is a fool’s errand.

[faust]

Note also that the SK (which has a 2/3 chance of existing) is Bulletproof, so scum has further incentive not to shoot scummy people, and the SK has no incentive to shoot scum.

[Swowl]

Hey DatSwan!

If I told you there was scum in {mcmcs, Glooble, Umbrage, Awaclus, Jimmmm}, would you think I was right or wrong?

Do I think there is skum on Day 1 of a grouping of 5 players in a 18 player game where there is GTD to be a minimum of 4 skum? I mean yes - I don't even need to read the question, I just assume the likelihood of be being correct on any given 5 players is pretty high.

I am however assuming you would like a specification - in which case, I don't really have an answer...

I will always vote for one person in your pool - regardless of the situation.
I think one person in your pool is town for sure as I can be at this point.
I think one person is townish but on my radar.
And I have no opinion on the other two to this point.

So, I guess IDK. I think you would be right based on the fact it would be improbable for you to be wrong. but you also picked an annoyingly frustrating set of players for me to judge. Always down for an Awaclus lynch though if you want to narrow it down.

[Swowl]

Hated works until it would take that many votes to work in total, like when three people are left alive, as far as I understand it.

Ah ok that makes more sense than what I was thinking... Upon further thought, what I was thinking made 0 sense at all.

[Swowl]

Hey DatSwan!

If I told you there was scum in {mcmcs, Glooble, Umbrage, Awaclus, Jimmmm}, would you think I was right or wrong?

wait I want follow up now that I have thought about it.

Same question back at you.

[Swowl]

I fail to see why Garak should target 2 scumreads: shouldn't it be 1 townread and 1 scumread? Otherwise it's unlikely scum will target a scummy-looking person, right? Maybe the multiball makes that a thing?

Exactly, scum would prefer to kill the other scumteam. Coincidentally town would prefer for scum to kill the other scum, so what scum really want is to kill the other scum while not getting killed themselves.

No, scum wants to kill players at night that they cannot get lynched during the Day.

Not arguing - in a set up where there is one Skum team and one other faction like SK... then yeah. I think everyone would agree the best way to move forward (as skum) would be to ignore the SK concept and focus on Town threats.
But the set up here is unknown and different. There is either:
- Team of 3 Skum and 1 SK
or
- 2x Teams of 3 Skum
(As I understand the set up notes).

If there are two skum teams then at this point they would not know and either team could find it more valuable to kill a likely skum player (that isn't of their faction) as opposed to searching for town threats.
Especially considering if there are two skum teams the likelihood that a cop finds skum is equal for their opposing faction as it is for them to be found.

All in all this game, given the set up, I could see it going either way. Skum probably still shoots someone suspicious under the assumption they find either strong Town PR or other skum, but the factor of likelihood of finding other skum should be factored out of theory until we have flips enough to substantiate what the skum set up is.

My point is that we should not speculate now on kill targets for skum. Too much WIFOM. When we get enough flips to determine something, then we can/should address it.

[Swowl]

I think faust is wrong here. In Multiball (and games with know night kills other than the scum team’s), scum want to remove that threat first. Lynchable vs. not is secondary. So I think here hitting “other scum or vig” is scum’s preference.

The problem with bus driving important roles or towny players is that you are providing an accidental lane to them being targeted at night, depending on your reads. Say you drive a cop with a scumread and different scum are shooting for said scum read (or just using crumbs to go for the cop). 

At the least, you need everyone to crumb a la snow’s idea, to provide cover.

I think directing the drive is a fool’s errand.

So, we woke up tomorrow with the knowledge that there is more than one Skum Team - Do you think from that point forward Skum would focus on Town PRs or on the other Skum Team when choosing their NK?

[Swowl]

Here's the deal with no-lynch. 

Nope; but I'll never stop trying.

Even if No Lynch was a viable option, you shouldn't try to convince people of it, that'll destroy D1 if no one wants a lynch. Since it's not even a good option, it's anti-town to propose that idea. Come back near deadline, then it will be useful.

I'm not trying to get people to vote:nolynch right this minute. What I am heavily suggesting and will never stop suggesting is that no lynch is a viable end to Day1.  It should be in our arsenal.  There are 18 viable ends to the day (because lynching UncleEurope on Day1 is not an option).

There are people who are soooooo against no-lynch that they will literally vote for their biggest townread to ensure that "at least some lynch goes through."  That's extremist and absurd.  Less extreme, but equally absurd is people who will vote for regular townreads all in the name of #mustlynch.

Easier to get dead scum if we lynch, therefore lynching is good. Yes, I do stand by that.

Not just you, but others as well, quote statistics like they're Wayne Gretsky (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take).  sure the probability of a random choice hitting scum is 22%-33%, and the probability of a no-lynch hitting scum is 0%.  But that's not the point. 
A) LYNCHES ARE NOT RANDOM  (I literally can't stress this enough)
B) people act like the only metric worth measuring is is-scum-dead.  There is value in having town alive, and that has to be factored in if you insist on only using math. 


WestCoastDidds has a good point, but also mentions a wrong one people have

The odds we have on a first day lynch are anywhere from 22-33% depending on the loadout we got. These SEEM like decent stab in the dark odds, but right now it seems unlikely that we'll reach any sort of agreement on who to target. I'm all for experimenting with no lynch and hoping scum bump toes in the night.

It seems unlikely that we’ll reach a consensus, yet it usually happens. Kind of wild! We still have lots of time to interact and pay attention so even if it seems impossible that half of us would agree to lynch one person now, we will likely get there by the deadline. Partly because most of us (based on my limited knowledge of a handful of games) will want a lynch, so as it gets closer to the deadline there will be some converging. And how we converge (or not) helps us have more to analyze in D2.

We could very much reach a consensus; it happens a lot.  But please please please PLEASE for the love of all things coffee-related, do not converge JUST so a lynch will happen.  There could be days in the future where it is more essential to lynch, many factors affect stuff like this.  But Day1, in an 18 player game, with 2 scumteams, and multiple roles that can save....that's checks every single box on the "is it reasonable to nolynch" survey.

It INFURIATES me that people see ~25% vs. 0% and then just mindlessly echo "ALWAYS lynch, ALWAYS lynch, ALWAYS lynch".  The issue is much more intricate than ~25% vs 0%.
Ok, that's off my chest.  I swear I won't bring up no-lynching again for a while.

Is it your opinion that as town it is potentially more advantageous on to forego a Day 1 lynch thus guaranteeing a saved potential mis-lynch, than having said lynch to go through and be able to be used later in the game?

Your logic makes perfect sense in regards to the here and now, but go and look at any town victory ever that goes through Day 4 - Day 6+.... it all comes back to how people interact with one and other. To remove the first of those interactions, the most purest of those interactions... is just I mean a bad idea.

[faust]

Your logic makes perfect sense in regards to the here and now, but go and look at any town victory ever that goes through Day 4 - Day 6+.... it all comes back to how people interact with one and other. To remove the first of those interactions, the most purest of those interactions... is just I mean a bad idea.

This is a gross misrepresentation. shraeye explicitly said that he does not want us to stop interaction, or push through a no lynch right away.

[raerae]

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

You missed the fact that he unvoted Uncle, didn't you?

Now, serious talk: anyone who knows Robz's meta, does he analyze setups? Does he like to break setups? Is he usually good at theory talk in general?

So, uncle claimed...well that makes him unlynchable, so he might as well be the IC for this day, right?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

And why can't shraeye be our lunch today? He seems just as on the table as everybody else?

@MiX, you never answered this, why can't shraeye be our lynch today?

[Glooble]

Shraeye, thanks for explaining your feelings on no lynch a little better. I find you much less scummy now.

A) LYNCHES ARE NOT RANDOM  (I literally can't stress this enough)
B) people act like the only metric worth measuring is is-scum-dead.  There is value in having town alive, and that has to be factored in if you insist on only using math.  .

What’s not random about a day one lynch? People form reads on the flimsiest evidence and cling to them. I don’t trust my own day one reads and I can’t trust anyone else’s because I have no evidence anyone else is town. It might not be completely random, but it’s pretty close.

I think the more useful metric than dead town or alive scum is information. Once we know someone’s alignment, we can look back and what they said, what was said to them, and what was said about them and that’s when our reads become worth something. Chance of hitting scum scum is a viable argument against no lynch, but so is “more useful data points.”

[SpaceAnemone]

My few thoughts so far:

-ash is Towny
-UoS is probably Towny
-shraeye is scummy
-count me against no-lynching

Vote: shraeye

I had to go remind myself that Ashersky was even in the game, because I'd forgotten, even though I responded to him earlier!

How can you assert towniness based on what was at that point two in-game posts? :-P

[faust]

How can you assert towniness based on what was at that point two in-game posts? :-P

If it is possible that 200 000 posts give you an indication of a person's alignment, then it is equally possible that 2 do.

[MiX]

Well Robz seems to be consistent with his meta, although it's what I expected from scum!robz, it's just null, so UnFoS.

@Jimmmmm, would you consider yourself a good D1 player? What's your scum meta?

I have a very strong feeling shraeye's big and abundant posts about nolynch exist solely for towncred. But it's working...I still think he's town. This is so weeeeird...

About faust:

I'd rather talk about how faust is scum and no one wants to think about why. I'm curious who picks up on what I'm thinking (other than faust) but it doesn't even seem like people care to think about this as a serious read right now.

I was talking about this and e's vote for faust when I asked why people are saying faust is scum. My vote's where it is because I townread e and UoS, and I haven't seen anything scum!faust wouldn't do this game. But Robz is right, so

Vote: Space

For his "how can you townread someone with 2 posts", which is cleverly his meta while justifying lack of reads through D1. Oh, and to answer it, townreads are relative, so if ash did something mildly towny and nothing scummy, that would be enough justification for a townread.

While I'm at it...how come no-one mentioned ash!plans? Severely dissapointed.

[Glooble]

MiX, as a note please try and use the pronouns in people's signatures if they provide them. Space uses they/ them.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: Space

For his "how can you townread someone with 2 posts", which is cleverly his meta while justifying lack of reads through D1. Oh, and to answer it, townreads are relative, so if ash did something mildly towny and nothing scummy, that would be enough justification for a townread.

While I'm at it...how come no-one mentioned ash!plans? Severely dissapointed.

Dude, Space is not a “he”. There is a post from them earlier laying that out clearly. Pay attention to all the things folks say, not just the stuff that matters to you.

[MiX]

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

And why can't shraeye be our lunch today? He seems just as on the table as everybody else?

@MiX, you never answered this, why can't shraeye be our lynch today?

Yes I did...

PPE 1: Because I have an uncanny ability to see the future; with this, I can predict that e won't flip his townread, and I expect to strenghten mine as well. I might be reading too much into this, being early D1 and all, but I use all information we have available.

PPE 2: Gah! I forgot...I knew this would happen, sorry Space, I really don't want you to tak about NAI things. Their and their. There, fixed!

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: Space

For his "how can you townread someone with 2 posts", which is cleverly his meta while justifying lack of reads through D1.

How is it that you claim to know my meta, and yet manage to misgender me twice in one sentence? Either you've read my play before, in which case you'll have seen umpteen variations on the statement that I am not at all okay with "he/him" pronouns, or you haven't and are just looking for excuses to throw votes around.

Vote: MiX

[SpaceAnemone]

Huh.. there was a PPE 3 on that last post of mine, apparently!

[MiX]

Vote: Space

For his "how can you townread someone with 2 posts", which is cleverly his meta while justifying lack of reads through D1.

How is it that you claim to know my meta, and yet manage to misgender me twice in one sentence? Either you've read my play before, in which case you'll have seen umpteen variations on the statement that I am not at all okay with "he/him" pronouns, or you haven't and are just looking for excuses to throw votes around.

Vote: MiX

I DO know that! I've seen games where you play and I've seen you get VERY upset about it. But I'm on mobile and I forgot, I'm sorry. Now, OMGUS?

[ashersky]

vote: chickenwarlord

Random based on a look at the player list and settled on the when was the last time that player posted feeling I got.

Or is that a player no one calls by their name?

[ashersky]

I feel like one Ferengi should claim and tell us what faction isn't in the game.  Obligatory WIFOM statement following a role point: that Ferengi doesn't have to be me, if I were in fact a Ferengi.

[ashersky]

I feel like one Ferengi should claim and tell us what faction isn't in the game.  Obligatory WIFOM statement following a role point: that Ferengi doesn't have to be me, if I were in fact a Ferengi.

And I just reread that and it says not in their QT/UB, not game.  So nevermind.  No Ferengi, including maybe me, should share information now.

[ashersky]

joth, in your Martok point, you mention the doctoring doesn't stop people from dying.  That includes the Doctor, too, right?

[MiX]

joth, in your Martok point, you mention the doctoring doesn't stop people from dying.  That includes the Doctor, too, right?

The bomb kills players who target with NKs, so not Bashir.

[faust]

I feel like one Ferengi should claim and tell us what faction isn't in the game.  Obligatory WIFOM statement following a role point: that Ferengi doesn't have to be me, if I were in fact a Ferengi.

Why do you need to know what faction isn't in the game?

I don't think this is worth further exposing Cop for.

[Glooble]

I feel like one Ferengi should claim and tell us what faction isn't in the game.  Obligatory WIFOM statement following a role point: that Ferengi doesn't have to be me, if I were in fact a Ferengi.

Why do you need to know what faction isn't in the game?

I don't think this is worth further exposing Cop for.

If we were in fact able to get that information (which we can't) it would honestly help scum more than town at this point. If scum the scum team knows that the only other scum is a bulletproof sk, for example, they're going to focus on killing town PRs instead of targeting their own scum reads.

[Glooble]

Although if there is at least one scum among the Ferengi, then that scum team already know the exact composition. But they could all be town.

[Glooble]

vote: jimmmmm

or however many ms.

I'm feeling better about shraeye, I don't like the faust or e wagons, and I'd rather not lynch a brand new player for lurking (especially one I recruited.) Jimmm hasn't done anything but drop some reads which to me didn't look like they had much thought behind them.

But, chicken, you gotta get in here and contribute! To everyone here but me you are a completely unknown element. At least answer the questions directed at you.

[jotheonah]

joth, in your Martok point, you mention the doctoring doesn't stop people from dying.  That includes the Doctor, too, right?

I don't understand the question. Anyone who targets Martok with a nightkill gets killed, whether or not that nightkill happens. Unless they get roleblocked. People that target him with something else are fine.

[shraeye]

Hey DatSwan!

If I told you there was scum in {mcmcs, Glooble, Umbrage, Awaclus, Jimmmm}, would you think I was right or wrong?

wait I want follow up now that I have thought about it.

Same question back at you.

Yeah, I picked a set of players that I thought would be harder/more-informative to assess.  You're right that choosing 5 players is likely to include scum, but I tried to pick some players that hadn't left a big impression on me.  So I guess a hidden question was "is that more scummy or more towny?"  That's not a question with a straightforward answer either. 

For example, Umbrage has said a lot of words, but hasn't contributed much to interactions/reads so I think that is scummier.  mcmcs has said many fewer words, but when I look at them they are really pushing interactions and reads; so townier

I literally don't recall Awaclus posting anything.  So I'm feeling more like that's someone who was busy when the game got underfoot like you were.  But you showed up and immediately contributed, unlike them.  Jimmm has also contributed minimally, but more all-around instead of minimal-content but most of it is joking/unrelated .  So despite having similar levels, I'm reading Jimmm as townier than Awaclus.

Glooble has said a few things that I've had kneejerk reactions to, and things I disagree with, but has done some rereading/summarizing/opining.  I'm beginning to feel like I have kneejerk reactions to town more than scum (see M121).  That's an oversimplification, but it's enough for me to push Glooble towards the towny side of null.

[shraeye]

I feel like one Ferengi should claim and tell us what faction isn't in the game.  Obligatory WIFOM statement following a role point: that Ferengi doesn't have to be me, if I were in fact a Ferengi.

Why do you need to know what faction isn't in the game?

I don't think this is worth further exposing Cop for.

If we were in fact able to get that information (which we can't) it would honestly help scum more than town at this point. If scum the scum team knows that the only other scum is a bulletproof sk, for example, they're going to focus on killing town PRs instead of targeting their own scum reads.

This is true.  Ash should know that.  Welcome to the top of my suspicion list.


Glooble, you're going to have to walk me through your thought process.

If we were in fact able to get that information (which we can't)

This looks like you realize, like ash did, that the info is "not in QT" instead of "not in game".

Although if there is at least one scum among the Ferengi, then that scum team already know the exact composition.

But this looks like you still think, like ash originally did, that they know which faction isn't in the game.

And they were posted in that order, back-to-back.  It looks like an un-realization (instead of ash's realization)

[Glooble]

I'm happy to walk you through my though process. For the first post- the Ferengi only know what alignment one of the Ferengi are. That could be the alignment not in the game, if that's the only one that fits the bill. But all a town Ferengi would know is one alignment that no one in the QT has. I saw that Ash had realized this, but I also wanted to point out that if Ash's original assumption was true, i.e. that the Ferengi knew which alignment wasn't in the gaqme, it would still be bad for them to say because that knowledge helps scum more than it helps town.


After I made that post, it occurred to me that if at least one Ferengi was scum, they would already know which alignment wasn't in the game, since they have an additional piece of information- their own alignment. Which would be an argument in favor of sharing that information with town. But its all moot since a town Ferengi wouldn't have that info in the first place.

[Glooble]

I'm happy to walk you through my though process. For the first post- the Ferengi only know what alignment one of the Ferengi are.

That's meant to say "none" not "one"

[Glooble]

Oh wait I’m dumb. I see what you’re saying now.

I don’t know what I was thinking. Ignore the above.

No, a theoretical scum Ferengi doesn’t actually no any more than a non-scum Ferengi until someone flips the opposite alignment.

[Glooble]

*know, not no.

[MiX]

Glooble's explanation is consistent with what I would expect of "ash is wrong: even if this was true, he forgot about one thing. Oh, but that's not true, right. But even if it was, there's another thing that's wrong, so, yeah".

@Glooble, do you like setup talk and/or do you think you're good at it? Do you think you need to work harder D1 because of last game?

PPE 2: Ok now I'm actually confused...let's stop talking about hypotheticals that aren't true.

[Glooble]

Glooble's explanation is consistent with what I would expect of "ash is wrong: even if this was true, he forgot about one thing. Oh, but that's not true, right. But even if it was, there's another thing that's wrong, so, yeah".

@Glooble, do you like setup talk and/or do you think you're good at it? Do you think you need to work harder D1 because of last game?

PPE 2: Ok now I'm actually confused...let's stop talking about hypotheticals that aren't true.

Setup talk can be helpful. I've never understood why people think its scummy.


By last game do you mean Deep Space Nine Mafia 1 five years ago or Imperial Radch Mafia? Because I don't think I did anything wrong in Imperial Radch mafia, except maybe not hammering UoS after his bogus doctor claim.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.3

Far above Odo and Quark's bickering, Worf sits at another table opposite Kasidy Yates. He sips his prune juice with brooding severity.

"Thank you for joining me, Ms. Yates," he intones in his Klingon baritone. "There is an ... awkwardness... to this interview, given your relationship with the Captain. But he has charged me to find the Maquis spies, and given your former association with them, you were the logical person to start with."

"Of course, Worf," Kasidy says. "But I don't think I can help you much. I haven't had any contact with Maquis for a long time."

"I see. And have you encountered any ... former associates around the station?"

"I can't say that I have. If I hear anything I'll let you know."

"Thank you."

Kasidy decides to break the tense silence that follows.

"In the meantime, Ben, Jake and I are planning to play some baseball in the holosuite this weekend. We could use a good, strong pitcher like you. Care to join in?"

"Perhaps another time," the Klingon says. "I would rather not take time for recreation while this threat to the station remains."

"I'm sorry to hear that," Jadzia says, bounding up the spiral staircase to Quark's second level.

"I was hoping we could spar a little," she says flirtatiously. "Blow off some steam. But I guess I'll just have to join Quark's tongo game instead."

Jadzia playfully takes a swig of Worf's prune juice and skips back down the stairs, daring her boyfriend to follow.


faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
UmbrageOfSnow (1): UncleEurope
Robz888 (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble

Not voting (6): LaLight, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Awaclus, chickenwarlord

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players. Day 1 ends at 8 a.m. forum time on Saturday, March 2.

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay...I am finally catching up for real. I just read where we are at from the start. (Thanks, Joth, for the cool set up and all of the clarifications! You are doing a great job!) I had to go read about bus drivers and godfathers and millers and multiball... but now I think I understand where we are at. Here's what I am thinking about who we have playing...

Eddie is Gul, the hated godfather. Poor Eddie. We don't really hate you...you're the Uncle of Europe! Loved by all! But good to know. I don't think that claiming was a bad move.

MiX confuses me frequently. This is not all that interesting necessarily, but I do find it happening over and over again so I am going to say something now in case it starts happening when it matters. I find him really hard to follow. I don't think I think the same way he does about things, and it seems different than a wordsy person v. mathsy person distinction. I wonder if the experience of playing really fast games is significant? I am also troubled by the fact that he pays close attention to some posts and then glosses others. Why the selective attention paying? But he's new and I'd rather be friendlier than not at the outset, but still seems not quite right.

Shraeye and UoS are both writing big posts with lots of stuff, but not so much on the conclusions.  That has a quasi-helpfulness vibe without actually being helpful, especially when the posts are bossy or commanding. Shraeye makes some good points about why no lynch should be viable, but I am still on the side of lynching. UoS is helping fill in blanks about how some of the roles work and interact, which is likely useful.

I appreciate Glooble trying to suss out dimensions of the set-up that are helpful to everyone. (UoS is in this camp sometimes, too) I don't find anything scummy about him doing this. He definitely did nothing wrong in the Imperial Radch game.

Mcmc...hi! I'm so sorry that Asher killed you so early into the last game.  I was hoping I'd get to play with not-scum you for the first time ever!

DatSwan (hi! Sorry I quoted my role and got our QT cut short last game! Turns out quoting is a big deal! Who knew?!) always makes a lot of sense to me, even when he wanders about. I'm prone to wandering myself, so I usually follow him pretty well. It will take a lot for me to find him scummy for that kind of posting.

I don't see why UoS thinks faust is scummy. Faust doesn't seem scummy...just cranky. As anyone is likely to be when Something Is Wrong on the Internet.

E and Space are as I expected. I don't know them quite well enough to make judgements just yet but they are legit vets that play well and help town (when they are town) so I'm interested in seeing what they find interesting. Ashersky confuses me a bit, sometimes, but everything thus far has been straightforward. I am putting them all into a "not scummy" basket.

Then I have a "who?" basket for folks who are scarce. Robz has contributed little. Chicken even less. Awaclus stays around enough to keep up, but adds little.  Raerae is unknown to me, but I heartily appreciate her attitude and I like it when she gives Shraeye the business.  I also find it endearing that when I read the original DS9 game they were dating!  And now there is a kid! Love it! Jimmmmmm is unknown to me, too. And I don't have any real sense of him.

LaLight...how was the moving? I hope that you are not living among boxes for too long. Right now, due to the low level of interaction which is not very lalight-y at all, he's my most likely to be scum guess. So, I guess I'll vote: LaLight

[UmbrageOfSnow]

See, that one I don't buy. If Eddie was scum and I his partner, and we decided to claim Gul Dukat, why on earth would I want to steal his thunder by proposing the plan before he ever had a chance to post?

What thunder would you be stealing exactly? There's no universe in which anyone fakeclaims Dukat, the only question is alignment, not role.

Also, I had somehow missed that the serial killer, if we have one, would be full BP rather than 1-shot, which does indeed change things although I'm not entirely sure how. Surviving an NK is a sort of soft Changeling cop for scum. Either way it doesn't change how I would use Bus Driver, successfully targeting one of the 2 scum making an NK turns Bus Driver into a vig shot, and there are two chances to guess right, with the other top guess being vigged.

Also, I think of this whenever I say busvig.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

What’s not random about a day one lynch? People form reads on the flimsiest evidence and cling to them. I don’t trust my own day one reads and I can’t trust anyone else’s because I have no evidence anyone else is town. It might not be completely random, but it’s pretty close.

STOP BEING COMMITTED TO MAKING DAY 1 USELESS.

If there is a less than random chance of lynching scum on D1 (there is), it's because scum interact in a way to ensure town gets lynched. This is like the whole point of mafia.

If we don't have lunch, we go to bed hungry we wake up the next day with the same lack of information we'd have had on D1, minus whatever PRs learned, but we know the setup and the PRs aren't likely to solve the game on N1, and any useful results will out them.

And by the way, no one has rock solid reads or evidence on Day 2 or Day 3 either, and they are worse if there wasn't a Day 1 lynch. Who here has never been on a mislynch wagon as town? Hint: maybe one of the newbies, but that's it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@Jimmmmm, would you consider yourself a good D1 player? What's your scum meta?

Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm will be completely useless Day 1. This is something I'm trying to fight against, because so many people are willfully useless Day 1, but Jimmmmm isn't going to be the one I convince I think. He's good in LYLO though (and he'll probably make it to LYLO if he's town because he won't be a threat to scum before then.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

While I'm at it...how come no-one mentioned ash!plans? Severely dissapointed.

I've been waiting for someone to jump on Ash for not having a plan, or Ash to roll out some half-baked plan to satisfy the masses.

The fact that he hasn't gives me a townread on Ash here, I think he caves to his own meta as scum. The fact that you bring it up... well it cancels out the townpoints I was giving you for actually seeming to look at Faust when I mentioned it.

...
Sigh. Then I read the next page and see Ash trying to find things to make up plans about right after you post this. I guess we can get out of this that Ash and MiX at least aren't on the same scumteam...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, since we're done playing my little game here, I may as well give my reasoning:

Faust is one of the players who gets the utility of Day 1. And his Dukat claiming talk is fine, but the desire to lynch UE didn't read like a reaction test to me, for a minute before he realized it was insanely anti-town for the UB to inherit Dukat's power if the UB is town, he wanted Dukat dead for strategy reasons.

And yeah, Dukat isn't likely to be the NK but he's sortable by reads later on. If we are possibly going into LYLO in the next day later in the game and don't decide we collectively trust him, it makes sense to lynch Unceeurope then, but doing it in the first couple real life days of Day 1 eliminates a lot of the utility Faust knows there can be in Day 1. And I think Town!faust realizes that.

[Jimmmmm]

My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)

I've realise what I really need to get into a game is for someone to come out gunning for me. It gives me something to focus on apart from "this is a big game with lots of people and I don't even know where to start".

[Jimmmmm]

realised*

[MiX]

My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)

I've realise what I really need to get into a game is for someone to come out gunning for me. It gives me something to focus on apart from "this is a big game with lots of people and I don't even know where to start".

That's actually enough for me to

Vote: Jimmmmmmm

Let's see what you got.

What’s not random about a day one lynch? People form reads on the flimsiest evidence and cling to them. I don’t trust my own day one reads and I can’t trust anyone else’s because I have no evidence anyone else is town. It might not be completely random, but it’s pretty close.

STOP BEING COMMITTED TO MAKING DAY 1 USELESS.

UoS is town.

I'll have to look at Didds' wall post later, for now I'll do this.

[Jimmmmm]

@Jimmmmm, would you consider yourself a good D1 player? What's your scum meta?

No, not at all. I find I need things to respond to, and D1 typically doesn't do a good job at providing that. Not that I'm blaming anyone but myself.

It's been a while since I've been scum, but I've had some pretty good scum games in the past, so I think I'm seen as a fairly strong scum player. Scum scum scum.

[Jimmmmm]

My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)

I've realise what I really need to get into a game is for someone to come out gunning for me. It gives me something to focus on apart from "this is a big game with lots of people and I don't even know where to start".

That's actually enough for me to

Vote: Jimmmmmmm

Let's see what you got.

A vote is not gunning for me.

[MiX]

My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)

I've realise what I really need to get into a game is for someone to come out gunning for me. It gives me something to focus on apart from "this is a big game with lots of people and I don't even know where to start".

That's actually enough for me to

Vote: Jimmmmmmm

Let's see what you got.

A vote is not gunning for me.

From my PoV:

- If you're town, you need an incentive to play D1. A vote on you means other town/scum can vote on you, creating a sizeable wagon. I think that would force you to pay attention to defend yourself, thus generate more pro-town content from you.

- If you're scum, you need to feel some pressure, even if it's just a vote now, others might join the wagon, forcing you to actually play D1, which, hopefully, makes you drop some scumslips or useful interactions that'll be useful for future days.

So it's strictly better for me to vote for you. Unless I misunderstood what gunning means (maybe it's just someone saying "YOU'RE SCUM YOU'RE SCUM HERE'S 50 REASONS WHY" but I hope not because I can't do that...), this seems to be foolproof, right?

[Glooble]

What’s not random about a day one lynch? People form reads on the flimsiest evidence and cling to them. I don’t trust my own day one reads and I can’t trust anyone else’s because I have no evidence anyone else is town. It might not be completely random, but it’s pretty close.

STOP BEING COMMITTED TO MAKING DAY 1 USELESS.

Stop misrepresenting my quotes.

I never said day one was useless. I said day one lynches are essentially random. That's not the same thing at all. The reasoning people give, the reads they express on each other, when votes get thrown around and for who - all of this is extremely useful, and gets more useful as the game goes on and its given context by concrete information.

On day one, we don't have that context. All we have are reads. And competent scum players can fool those a lot more easily than they can fool other scumhunting techniques that don't become viable until later in the game.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Day 1 lynches aren't random though.

The more we assume there's no information to go off, the more random they become, but it isn't doomed to be that way. It's that way because people say, over and over and over "Day one is basically random, we have no information."

Good town have reads that are better than random. If scum are lynched Day 1, they (rightfully) lose the majority of games where scum is lynched on Day 1.

And the better we try to play on Day 1, the more scum have to commit to driving mislynches, which is good later on.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

MiX is hard to follow as town and presumably hard to follow as scum. I think he thinks differently than a lot of us.

Right now I think he'll be one of the players that's much easier to sort once we have some flips.

I'd say I don't want to lynch him Day 1 unless he basically scumclaims, but then we get into the don't lynch newbies Day 1, don't lynch good players Day 1, don't lynch hard-to-sort (Awaclus, MiX, Jimmm, Robz) Day 1 and pretty soon we can't lynch anyone.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Stop misrepresenting my quotes.

What else do you feel I've misrepresented?

[Robz888]

There's a chickenwarlord in this game? Vote: Chickenwarlord

[Uncleeurope]

What’s not random about a day one lynch? People form reads on the flimsiest evidence and cling to them. I don’t trust my own day one reads and I can’t trust anyone else’s because I have no evidence anyone else is town. It might not be completely random, but it’s pretty close.

STOP BEING COMMITTED TO MAKING DAY 1 USELESS.

UoS is town.

Not necessarily, the one thing I have learned about Snow from all these years is he loves a good rant, rants that he can replicate in any situation.

Not to say he is scum from this, just that ranting is Snow!Snow

IMO anyway.

Vote: Awaclus

Because it would happen eventually.

[Glooble]

Stop misrepresenting my quotes.

What else do you feel I've misrepresented?

Just that one, really.

MiX is hard to follow as town and presumably hard to follow as scum. I think he thinks differently than a lot of us.

Right now I think he'll be one of the players that's much easier to sort once we have some flips.

I'd say I don't want to lynch him Day 1 unless he basically scumclaims, but then we get into the don't lynch newbies Day 1, don't lynch good players Day 1, don't lynch hard-to-sort (Awaclus, MiX, Jimmm, Robz) Day 1 and pretty soon we can't lynch anyone.

Why wouldn’t we lynch players who are hard to sort? Granted I’ve played one game with Awaclus, but in that one game 1. He was scum, 2. I kept saying he was scum, 3. People kept saying “nah, that’s just Awaclus being Awaclus har har.”

[Glooble]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

[Jimmmmm]

My #347 sounds harsh, but I actually like Jimmmm and think he's a smart guy. Just typically unengaged until crunchtime (and liable to being mislynched for it.)

I've realise what I really need to get into a game is for someone to come out gunning for me. It gives me something to focus on apart from "this is a big game with lots of people and I don't even know where to start".

That's actually enough for me to

Vote: Jimmmmmmm

Let's see what you got.

A vote is not gunning for me.

From my PoV:

- If you're town, you need an incentive to play D1. A vote on you means other town/scum can vote on you, creating a sizeable wagon. I think that would force you to pay attention to defend yourself, thus generate more pro-town content from you.

- If you're scum, you need to feel some pressure, even if it's just a vote now, others might join the wagon, forcing you to actually play D1, which, hopefully, makes you drop some scumslips or useful interactions that'll be useful for future days.

So it's strictly better for me to vote for you. Unless I misunderstood what gunning means (maybe it's just someone saying "YOU'RE SCUM YOU'RE SCUM HERE'S 50 REASONS WHY" but I hope not because I can't do that...), this seems to be foolproof, right?

That's more like it.

[raerae]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I feel like I actually have a good track record with Jimmmmm and Awaclus. I want to say that about Robz but I'm not sure, I remember being right about scum Robz once, and then I know I've helped mislynch Robz a few times, but both those times I think I had an early townread on him and then grew to doubt it.

I think those players are more sortable the more game you have to go on.

I'd prefer to lynch scummiest player on Day 1, and being willing to lynch anyone makes it exciting.

[MiX]

MiX confuses me frequently. This is not all that interesting necessarily, but I do find it happening over and over again so I am going to say something now in case it starts happening when it matters. I find him really hard to follow. I don't think I think the same way he does about things, and it seems different than a wordsy person v. mathsy person distinction. I wonder if the experience of playing really fast games is significant? I am also troubled by the fact that he pays close attention to some posts and then glosses others. Why the selective attention paying? But he's new and I'd rather be friendlier than not at the outset, but still seems not quite right.

Now that I got around to read Didds' wall post, I just want to say that, although I don't answer to literally every post, I use them to write a little document with what said posts had and how they shape my reads on people. If you have a post that you think I missed, please quote which one.

What do you think about shraeye/UoS/Glooble? Do you think they're towny, scummy or null for their setup talk?

@UoS, that is a...very good case on faust. Very interesting. The only problem is that I felt the same thing: Uncle needs to die eventually, why not now, oh right, we can just postpone it. But I'm not sure faust would think the same way as me...

@Chicken, at this point I feel like voting for you to see if you wake up, I know that in my first game, I wanted to make a big impression, I believe you should try to do the same: it's pro town, it sets you up for future days, and it helps for future games if those ever exist. So overall it's a pretty good deal!

I want to kill you as fast as possible. WHy are you voting for the VLA guy? You make a good point for Snow, but I'm not sure scum!Snow would grab this much towncred as agressively as she is...

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

As one of these players, I don't really understand why hard-to-read players are a liability as town. They would be if their reads are bad or if they're anti town, but being hard to read is not an anti-town ability, as Awaclus would surely tell you. Oh, unless he thinks he's easy to get townread as town, in which case he's incredibly wrong.

[Glooble]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

As one of these players, I don't really understand why hard-to-read players are a liability as town. They would be if their reads are bad or if they're anti town, but being hard to read is not an anti-town ability, as Awaclus would surely tell you. Oh, unless he thinks he's easy to get townread as town, in which case he's incredibly wrong.

If a player always comes off as scummy it makes them more likely to get mislynched when they’re town, it throws off other players reads and, as Awaclus demonstrated in RMM51, it makes it easy for them to hide behind their meta when they actually are scum.

[Awaclus]

I don't always come off as scummy.

[Glooble]

I don't always come off as scummy.

So far I’m not actually reading you as scummy this game. Hence why I’m voting for Jimmmmm right now.

[WestCoastDidds]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I think I’ve played most of my games with Awa and he is almost always in lynch discussions and it’s rarely a hard sell. Interestingly, the only time I’ve played with Scum!Awa was in the last game when he seemed towny and helpful. So now I think helpfulness may be a scum behavior from him. And being obstructionist is town, but not at all helpful to town from a communal-game perspective. I’m not sure what my conclusion to these thoughts are except that it won’t take much to push an Awa lynch, which scum can use as easily as town can.

[ashersky]

joth, in your Martok point, you mention the doctoring doesn't stop people from dying.  That includes the Doctor, too, right?

I don't understand the question. Anyone who targets Martok with a nightkill gets killed, whether or not that nightkill happens. Unless they get roleblocked. People that target him with something else are fine.

Yeah, I though anyone who targets the bomb is killed. I guess that’s more PGO.  It’s an acceptable Bomb variant, too, I think.

[ashersky]

I feel like one Ferengi should claim and tell us what faction isn't in the game.  Obligatory WIFOM statement following a role point: that Ferengi doesn't have to be me, if I were in fact a Ferengi.

Why do you need to know what faction isn't in the game?

I don't think this is worth further exposing Cop for.

What cop are you planning on exposing? 

[ashersky]

I'm happy to walk you through my though process. For the first post- the Ferengi only know what alignment one of the Ferengi are. That could be the alignment not in the game, if that's the only one that fits the bill. But all a town Ferengi would know is one alignment that no one in the QT has. I saw that Ash had realized this, but I also wanted to point out that if Ash's original assumption was true, i.e. that the Ferengi knew which alignment wasn't in the gaqme, it would still be bad for them to say because that knowledge helps scum more than it helps town.


After I made that post, it occurred to me that if at least one Ferengi was scum, they would already know which alignment wasn't in the game, since they have an additional piece of information- their own alignment. Which would be an argument in favor of sharing that information with town. But its all moot since a town Ferengi wouldn't have that info in the first place.

I think Glooble ended up thinking he was wrong somewhere, but he’s kind of right. If scum is in the neighborhood and is told there is no town in the hood, they know the exact setup alignment wise.

[Swowl]

Your logic makes perfect sense in regards to the here and now, but go and look at any town victory ever that goes through Day 4 - Day 6+.... it all comes back to how people interact with one and other. To remove the first of those interactions, the most purest of those interactions... is just I mean a bad idea.

This is a gross misrepresentation. shraeye explicitly said that he does not want us to stop interaction, or push through a no lynch right away.

Phrasing confusion? I am not suggesting otherwise - just my opinion on the topic and why. "interaction" in this context was to mean "a flip + pages from Day 1".

[Swowl]

Vote: chickenwarlord

[faust]

See, that one I don't buy. If Eddie was scum and I his partner, and we decided to claim Gul Dukat, why on earth would I want to steal his thunder by proposing the plan before he ever had a chance to post?

What thunder would you be stealing exactly? There's no universe in which anyone fakeclaims Dukat, the only question is alignment, not role.

The thunder that comes from him claiming out of his own volition and would possibly give him towncred.

Also, I had somehow missed that the serial killer, if we have one, would be full BP rather than 1-shot, which does indeed change things although I'm not entirely sure how. Surviving an NK is a sort of soft Changeling cop for scum. Either way it doesn't change how I would use Bus Driver, successfully targeting one of the 2 scum making an NK turns Bus Driver into a vig shot, and there are two chances to guess right, with the other top guess being vigged.

It doesn't really though. If the NK originally targeted one of your scum reads, then it already was like a vig shot.

[faust]

Okay, since we're done playing my little game here, I may as well give my reasoning:

Faust is one of the players who gets the utility of Day 1. And his Dukat claiming talk is fine, but the desire to lynch UE didn't read like a reaction test to me, for a minute before he realized it was insanely anti-town for the UB to inherit Dukat's power if the UB is town, he wanted Dukat dead for strategy reasons.

And yeah, Dukat isn't likely to be the NK but he's sortable by reads later on. If we are possibly going into LYLO in the next day later in the game and don't decide we collectively trust him, it makes sense to lynch Unceeurope then, but doing it in the first couple real life days of Day 1 eliminates a lot of the utility Faust knows there can be in Day 1. And I think Town!faust realizes that.

I wanted Dukat dead for strategy reasons. Lynching Dukat means not lynching a useful PR. It also means removing a liability. Of course the UB changes the first part, and makes it so that it largely does not matter whom we lynch from a PR perspective.

Much as I like D1s, I also like utilizing setup info to my advantage, and in an open setup if there is a good plan it outweighs reads for me. Especially in multiball where scum can legitimately scumhunt and thus is even harder to catch.

[faust]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

It didn't really. MiX provided a lot of info and was active. There was a lot that could have been analyzed later on. That's really not the sort of player I consider hard to read. And noone to my knowledge made that argument in the other game. He was lynched because people perceived him as scummy.

[faust]

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

[Swowl]

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

Why is voting for them different than voting for any other player?

[Chickenwarlord]

Make sure you make a post in the forums somewhere outside the forum games section, this will prevent having to do a captcha each time you post.
Would be nice for finding your posts if you added you ShuffleIT Username or a distinguishable signature to your profile.
Can you tell us about your prior experience and what your preferred pronouns are?

Hopefully my signature is now somewhat searchable for clarity.

Prior mafia experience is basically all in person stuff. This is my first time in a play by post mafia engine. I can already see that there's a lot more theorydiving and conjecture than IRL setups.

Preferred pronoun is he.

[Chickenwarlord]

@Chicken, at this point I feel like voting for you to see if you wake up, I know that in my first game, I wanted to make a big impression, I believe you should try to do the same: it's pro town, it sets you up for future days, and it helps for future games if those ever exist. So overall it's a pretty good deal!

I mean Day 1 is really difficult to get a good read out of people, but if we want post super unsubstantiated suspicions I'd be willing to wager that Ashersky and Faust are town.
I definitely want to wait for more info before throwing any fingers.
Vote: No Lynch
At least until there are some more actual claims out in the open or some compelling arguments.

[faust]

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

Why is voting for them different than voting for any other player?

Other people have posted.

[2.71828.....]

I haven't posted for a while, sorry. I will try to put some thoughts down later today

[Chickenwarlord]

It also stands to reason that the 'listening intently for verbal tripups so you can point out inconsistencies' style of play doesn't really translate so well to play by post, since it just seems like one isn't there. Having the ability to carefully craft a reply rather than wordsplurge also kind of puts a damper on it too.

[MiX]

I understand your willingness to No Lynch, chicken, as that tends to be optimal in primitive setups, where the cop's super important. This is less true here, where, since every single post is saved, you want everyone to interact early, to generate information useful in later days. The easiest way to do this is to (at least try to) lynch someone, so people have to put down reads and stand by their words and actions.

@UoS: if scum fails to NK, it could also be scum!Kira (apart from doc/bus driver).

[LaLight]

Vote: LaLight

This will be 3 scum games in a row, right?

M120, RMM51, and this game. They are on a streak! You can beat WW's streak, I know it!

there was also the Newbie game, so I had 4 in a row. But this ended in the Philosophers finally, I am really happy to get town then and now

[Chickenwarlord]

I understand your willingness to No Lynch, chicken, as that tends to be optimal in primitive setups, where the cop's super important. This is less true here, where, since every single post is saved, you want everyone to interact early, to generate information useful in later days. The easiest way to do this is to (at least try to) lynch someone, so people have to put down reads and stand by their words and actions.

@UoS: if scum fails to NK, it could also be scum!Kira (apart from doc/bus driver).

It's true that the prospect of all 3 role cops gleaning information from the first night was at least partially on my mind. However, I'm now realizing that they're not all necessarily town-aligned and the fact that we might not even get anybody to step forward with that info is pretty likely.

[LaLight]

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

This is my thought as well as I am rereading

vote: 2.71828.....

[LaLight]

yeah, I don't want to lynch MiX, not yet. Robz lately is paying his meta in the thread trying to seem town but usually ends up as scum. hmmm

So why are you scumreading Robz, Lalight?

I don't know, Robz' meta changed during last couple of years we are playing with him and he is really struggling with activity when he's scum. Up to this point I can't remember a single post from him other than "let's end D1 quicklynching someone"

[LaLight]

ok, I'm pretty much finished with the reread. There's a lot of people and I struggle to wrap it all up, but I have some townreads and couple of scumreads, top one of each is 2.7

[LaLight]

ok, I'm pretty much finished with the reread. There's a lot of people and I struggle to wrap it all up, but I have some townreads and couple of scumreads, top one of each is 2.7

of which.

[LaLight]

Unfortunately I am not expecting being superactive on D1, sorry. I will get to it eventually unless I'm killed or lynched

[SpaceAnemone]

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

Why is voting for them different than voting for any other player?

Other people have posted.

He'd made 2 in-game posts by then! Isn't that equivalent to 200 000 posts for determining his alignment? :-)

[faust]

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

Why is voting for them different than voting for any other player?

Other people have posted.

He'd made 2 in-game posts by then! Isn't that equivalent to 200 000 posts for determining his alignment? :-)

1. Please stop misrepresenting what I say.
2. If they got an alignment read from Chickenwarlord's posts, then that is totally fine and they can say so, it's a valid answer.

[MiX]

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

This is my thought as well as I am rereading

vote: 2.71828.....

Why? I don't think I've seen cases against e and he seems pretty town to me. Also, sheeping a meh, if not bad, vote is just...lazy, as (I think) Didds put it. Scumpoints!

I also have to say that I've been reading the QTs of M121, and I saw this in the mason one...

LaLight: "...By the way MiX when you read this, sorry!"

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

@faust, what makes you think Swan didn't get a scumread from chicken?

[faust]

@faust, what makes you think Swan didn't get a scumread from chicken?

The fact that he didn't say that he did.

[faust]

I'm happy to walk you through my though process. For the first post- the Ferengi only know what alignment one of the Ferengi are. That could be the alignment not in the game, if that's the only one that fits the bill. But all a town Ferengi would know is one alignment that no one in the QT has. I saw that Ash had realized this, but I also wanted to point out that if Ash's original assumption was true, i.e. that the Ferengi knew which alignment wasn't in the gaqme, it would still be bad for them to say because that knowledge helps scum more than it helps town.


After I made that post, it occurred to me that if at least one Ferengi was scum, they would already know which alignment wasn't in the game, since they have an additional piece of information- their own alignment. Which would be an argument in favor of sharing that information with town. But its all moot since a town Ferengi wouldn't have that info in the first place.

I think Glooble ended up thinking he was wrong somewhere, but he’s kind of right. If scum is in the neighborhood and is told there is no town in the hood, they know the exact setup alignment wise.

Wait that can happen? ... apparently yes. That would be hilarious but also a bit broken. I assume joth would reroll it.

Also it is not true. If there are no town in there, only the faction that has only one player in there would know which multiball it is.

[MiX]

Wrong: because there's 4 Ferengi: UB also included in the no-town.

I was thinking about this very scenario pregame, and it's definitely possible, don't see why not...actually, Could the above be considered balanced? That is, Ferengi know there's no town?

[Robz888]

I guess my vote on 2.7 was more useful. Vote: 2.7

[faust]

Wrong: because there's 4 Ferengi: UB also included in the no-town.

Still 2 scum from team 1 could be Ferengi and the third a UB, and they would not know whether the third Ferengi was SK or not.

... I had to.

[faust]

I guess my vote on 2.7 was more useful. Vote: 2.7

I guess my vote is still useful!

[jotheonah]

You guys are hilarious. The alignment the Ferengi are informed about cannot be Station. If the setup rolled such that all scum teams were represented in the Ferengi + UB, it would call for a reroll. they would just be told the non-existent scum team.

I mean, that would make for a very funny game, but it would either make the Neighborhood useless or basically make the scum teams into one mega-scum team.

Edit: I messed this up a bit.

[WestCoastDidds]

One mega-scumteam would be very bad indeed.
And Ferengi that powerful would have created a very different DS9.

[faust]

You guys are hilarious. The alignment the Ferengi are informed about cannot be Station. If the setup rolled such that all scum teams were represented in the Ferengi + UB, it would call for a reroll.

That's ... surprising. I mean 2 scumteams in there would mean that they still could have been informed about the third (non-existing) scumteam, and thus would not know each other's alignment. But this statement pretty definitely says that there is one town in Ferengi + UB. Which probably does not help us much, but still.

[LaLight]

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

This is my thought as well as I am rereading

vote: 2.71828.....

Why? I don't think I've seen cases against e and he seems pretty town to me. Also, sheeping a meh, if not bad, vote is just...lazy, as (I think) Didds put it. Scumpoints!

I also have to say that I've been reading the QTs of M121, and I saw this in the mason one...

LaLight: "...By the way MiX when you read this, sorry!"

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

@faust, what makes you think Swan didn't get a scumread from chicken?

idk, I am pretty good at gut reads and e has a lot of content but none of it stroke me as townie.

[faust]

idk, I am pretty good at gut reads and e has a lot of content but none of it stroke me as townie.

I never knew scums strokes your gut differently than town does!

[WestCoastDidds]

idk, I am pretty good at gut reads and e has a lot of content but none of it stroke me as townie.

I never knew scums strokes your gut differently than town does!

Towns are much guttier and scum is much stokier

[jotheonah]

Wait a minute, I don't know what I was thinking before. There is always a scum faction not in the game. If every scum faction is represented in the Ferengi, they are told the faction not in the game. Never town. But also, not necessarily grounds for a re-roll. Apologies for getting that wrong before.

[MiX]

So you pick who the Ferengi/UB are before randomizing what the Ferengi know? Let's assume there's 2/2 scum in the ferengi/UB: if you were to roll for Ferengi to know there's no Station-aligned, would you reroll all roles, or just the info (thus eventually making said info be "there's no changeling")?

I believe this may prove useful for probabilities.

[faust]

Wait a minute, I don't know what I was thinking before. There is always a scum faction not in the game. If every scum faction is represented in the Ferengi, they are told the faction not in the game. Never town. But also, not necessarily grounds for a re-roll. Apologies for getting that wrong before.

Well thanks I guess, but we still know that this did not happen as otherwise you would not have messed it up.

[raerae]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

It didn't really. MiX provided a lot of info and was active. There was a lot that could have been analyzed later on. That's really not the sort of player I consider hard to read. And noone to my knowledge made that argument in the other game. He was lynched because people perceived him as scummy.

I was looking at "hard to read" as in not obviously of one alignment. I think you (or Joseph maybe?) thought he was town all the way and others read him as scum.

[faust]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

It didn't really. MiX provided a lot of info and was active. There was a lot that could have been analyzed later on. That's really not the sort of player I consider hard to read. And noone to my knowledge made that argument in the other game. He was lynched because people perceived him as scummy.

I was looking at "hard to read" as in not obviously of one alignment. I think you (or Joseph maybe?) thought he was town all the way and others read him as scum.

In that case there is really nothing special about MiX in that regard.

[raerae]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

It didn't really. MiX provided a lot of info and was active. There was a lot that could have been analyzed later on. That's really not the sort of player I consider hard to read. And noone to my knowledge made that argument in the other game. He was lynched because people perceived him as scummy.

I was looking at "hard to read" as in not obviously of one alignment. I think you (or Joseph maybe?) thought he was town all the way and others read him as scum.

In that case there is really nothing special about MiX in that regard.

I feel like you're being difficult here on purpose. You know his posting style is divisive and that's what I was getting at. Regardless, I'm standing by not lynching him D1 barring any obvious slips.

[MiX]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

It didn't really. MiX provided a lot of info and was active. There was a lot that could have been analyzed later on. That's really not the sort of player I consider hard to read. And noone to my knowledge made that argument in the other game. He was lynched because people perceived him as scummy.

I was looking at "hard to read" as in not obviously of one alignment. I think you (or Joseph maybe?) thought he was town all the way and others read him as scum.

In that case there is really nothing special about MiX in that regard.

I feel like you're being difficult here on purpose. You know his posting style is divisive and that's what I was getting at. Regardless, I'm standing by not lynching him D1 barring any obvious slips.

You did say "hard to read" was not obviously being of one alignment. That's just asking to get answered like faust did. And what do you mean divisive, can you point out examples? I'm really trying not to do the same thing as the first game and I wanted to know what I did wrong then/now.

[raerae]

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

It didn't really. MiX provided a lot of info and was active. There was a lot that could have been analyzed later on. That's really not the sort of player I consider hard to read. And noone to my knowledge made that argument in the other game. He was lynched because people perceived him as scummy.

I was looking at "hard to read" as in not obviously of one alignment. I think you (or Joseph maybe?) thought he was town all the way and others read him as scum.

In that case there is really nothing special about MiX in that regard.

I feel like you're being difficult here on purpose. You know his posting style is divisive and that's what I was getting at. Regardless, I'm standing by not lynching him D1 barring any obvious slips.

You did say "hard to read" was not obviously being of one alignment. That's just asking to get answered like faust did. And what do you mean divisive, can you point out examples? I'm really trying not to do the same thing as the first game and I wanted to know what I did wrong then/now.

It isn't one particular thing I can quote, it's your whole style, it's just different. You're like that person who cornered me at a math party to talk about prime numbers once, it was just A LOT and that doesn't make it bad but just something I want expecting and didn't know how to handle.  I don't think you should change your style unless you want to and I'm not going to coach you about how you should play because we all have our own way. You do you.

[jotheonah]

So you pick who the Ferengi/UB are before randomizing what the Ferengi know? Let's assume there's 2/2 scum in the ferengi/UB: if you were to roll for Ferengi to know there's no Station-aligned, would you reroll all roles, or just the info (thus eventually making said info be "there's no changeling")?

I believe this may prove useful for probabilities.

Figuring out what to tell the Ferengi is the last step of the setup roll. I identify the options and then, if there's more than one, pick one at random. The possible options are Mirror Universe, Maquis, and Changeling (not Station).

Wait a minute, I don't know what I was thinking before. There is always a scum faction not in the game. If every scum faction is represented in the Ferengi, they are told the faction not in the game. Never town. But also, not necessarily grounds for a re-roll. Apologies for getting that wrong before.

Well thanks I guess, but we still know that this did not happen as otherwise you would not have messed it up.

Given the magnitude of my brain fart there (literally forgetting the basic tenet of my own setup, that only two of the possible three factions exist) I wouldn't draw any conclusions. Don't underestimate my capacity to screw up.

[SpaceAnemone]

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

Why is voting for them different than voting for any other player?

Other people have posted.

He'd made 2 in-game posts by then! Isn't that equivalent to 200 000 posts for determining his alignment? :-)

1. Please stop misrepresenting what I say.
2. If they got an alignment read from Chickenwarlord's posts, then that is totally fine and they can say so, it's a valid answer.

I feel like I wasn't particularly misrepresenting you, unless I misunderstand something. When you made that comment to me, I'd expressed surprise that someone had any read on Ash from two posts, and you suggested that it's possible to read alignment from two posts if it's possible for 200K posts. Then when discussing Chickenwarlord, you equated his two posts to an implied zero posts (because "other people have posted"). What did I miss?

FWIW, I think unless there's something with the information content of an undisputable scumslip, then any post can only give partial indication of an alignment, and you need an accumulation of posts before anyone's alignment swings significantly away from the default assumption. (I'm feeling pleased with myself for not saying "prior" after that whole discussion with Haddock in your Radch mafia game).

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I wanted Dukat dead for strategy reasons. Lynching Dukat means not lynching a useful PR. It also means removing a liability. Of course the UB changes the first part, and makes it so that it largely does not matter whom we lynch from a PR perspective.

Much as I like D1s, I also like utilizing setup info to my advantage, and in an open setup if there is a good plan it outweighs reads for me. Especially in multiball where scum can legitimately scumhunt and thus is even harder to catch.

And that's better (disregarding the UB and PR usefulness) than lynching Dukat the day before LYLO why?

Also, are you giving Uncleeurope less towncred for his claim because you suggested it?

[shraeye]

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

This is my thought as well as I am rereading

vote: 2.71828.....

I don't get it; this is the...third?...vote on e which feels like it's just sheeping what I still think is the scummiest reasoning I've seen so far.  Sure, metas, I get it. But "feels genuine" is an easy box to pretend somebody no longer is sitting in, since it's all subjective.


Like, "being scummy" isn't a meta.  Being sarcastic is.

Why wouldn’t we lynch players who are hard to sort? Granted I’ve played one game with Awaclus, but in that one game 1. He was scum, 2. I kept saying he was scum, 3. People kept saying “nah, that’s just Awaclus being Awaclus har har.”

There is merit to seeing if somebody's actions are out of character.  Like if raerae is sarcastic, and people say "because she's so sarcastic she must be scum"...then they're wrong.  That's not giving raerae cover to be scummy, it's just explaining how she is so we can interpret her other actions around it.

[shraeye]

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

What did I miss?

[shraeye]

Okay, since we're done playing my little game here, I may as well give my reasoning:

Faust is one of the players who gets the utility of Day 1. And his Dukat claiming talk is fine, but the desire to lynch UE didn't read like a reaction test to me, for a minute before he realized it was insanely anti-town for the UB to inherit Dukat's power if the UB is town, he wanted Dukat dead for strategy reasons.

And yeah, Dukat isn't likely to be the NK but he's sortable by reads later on. If we are possibly going into LYLO in the next day later in the game and don't decide we collectively trust him, it makes sense to lynch Unceeurope then, but doing it in the first couple real life days of Day 1 eliminates a lot of the utility Faust knows there can be in Day 1. And I think Town!faust realizes that.

I think I pulled a hamstring trying to follow that stretch.

[MiX]

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

What did I miss?

What do you mean by this?

[shraeye]

For you to explain what you mean, because it doesn't align with my worldview.

[mcmcsalot]

Wow take one day off and I’m 5 pages behind

[Robz888]

Wow take one day off and I’m 5 pages behind

So. Many. Players.

[MiX]

For you to explain what you mean, because it doesn't align with my worldview.

In a big game like this, I feel it's useful to use votes and FoSes to approach 2 different angles at the same time. This means I cover twice as much ground with my voting, which in turn means FoS acts like a vote. This might not be the best idea, but I didn't want to drop my vote on Jimmmmm just to apply some pressure to LL, so I thought it made sense here. I've used this reasoning on my FoS, where I liked my vote on faust but wanted to apply pressure on Robz, something that wasn't possible if I dropped the vote on faust.

Is that enough, shraeye? I want you to have a solid read on me so what happened last time doesn't happen this game too...at least have real cases behind my mislynch.

@mcmc, I was almost going to call you scummy for voting for e and then dissapearing; actually, can you explain your e vote? That seems to be a big deal now with people sheeping it.

@Robz, why are you voting for chicken? Did his recent posts change anything?

[Robz888]

I moved back to E.

[WestCoastDidds]

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

What did I miss?

What do you mean by this?

Are you the double voter MiX?

[MiX]

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

What did I miss?

What do you mean by this?

Are you the double voter MiX?

Vote: Didds

PR Hunting. Yeah, I highly doubt this is your town meta, look at this post and read it VERY CAREFULLY:

Other things worth saying at this time:

• Cops should aim for their scumreads rather than townreads, innocents are at best half useless and possibly completely useless
• Cops should only claim results on a guilty or if they are about to be lynched
• Crumbing roles is terrible here and should be avoided
• Crumbing innocent results should be kept pretty subtle, it's a much bigger deal to out yourself than for us to miss the crumb
• Sisko should target a scumread every night, hitting an NK well worth the risk of blocking town
• Sisko shouldn't claim if there are fewer NKs than expected, too many things can do that, but he should heavily suspect his previous night's target
• Bashir, Garak, Yates, and Winn should really be saving their shots for as late in the game as they think they can manage
• Garak really needs to crumb his bus driver targets if he uses that one (I would)

Bolding is mine: Take a good long look at it. Now realize your mistake. Please state everything about your thought process that lead you to post that. Now, please.

[WestCoastDidds]

Dude, you can take off of the bossy boots right now. You don't get to order me, or anyone else, around. It's scummy AF in the game and in life, and I am not having it.

You said "That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!"

Sure seems like you are saying you have two votes, I am not the only one confused, and you're FoS is just as good as a vote discussion is nonsensical to me. And no one says anyone has to obey UoS list of rules to be followed about roles, so I'm not sure that you are although you are quoting it here like its part of the setup.

I didn't make a mistake. I read more carefully than you do (see the Space gender discussion that you either didn't read or disregarded). Looks to me like you are saying you have two votes, so I am just making sure. Doubling down on me for pointing it out because the question doesn't follow the rules you believe have been established while trying to discipline me in the process...not cool.

[MiX]

I was too agressive, I know: this is how I act when someone scumslips.

Go over everything we know this game:

- One of the PRs is double-voter
- All PRs want to be hidden to protects the cops/other important PRs
- UoS said crumbing roles is bad: I stand by this, do you question it?
- I said "having 2 votes is double the power!" after FoSing.
- shraeye asked what I meant by that.
- I asked him what exactly he wanted.
- He said he was generally confused.
- I explained that I think FoS could be like a second vote.
- You questioned me if I had 2 votes.

You made a very big mistake: by asking if I have 2 votes, you're asking what my PR is: no matter what I answer, you'll gain information (in fact we'll all gain information, which here means scum). I believe we have agreed that outing PRs is bad in this setup, as I stated above. Thus, your question was a way to make me slip something about my role. This only helps scum. Ergo, you are scum.

What do you mean by "doubling down"? I was never on you...and yes, I do believe the rules have been established, no one disagreed with anything UoS posted in that list (IIRC faust only had a problem with the Garak part).

I get to order around my scumreads. Especially when they slip this hard...it's not at all scummy to do so, because "scummy in life" does not exist.

This is super convenient, I had something to ask you:

What do you think about shraeye/UoS/Glooble? Do you think they're towny, scummy or null for their setup talk?

It's buried in one of my many big posts, but still.

Now, how will you respond to agresssiveness? I believe this is your weak spot, if I press it you might slip even more! Please, answer this with everything you have.

[SpaceAnemone]

Now, how will you respond to agresssiveness_

MiX, I'm not okay with the way you're treating WCD. Please remember that you've signed the Civility Pledge, saying that you will treat other players in a civil manner. You've admitted that you were excessively aggressive, and yet you seem completely unapologetic about it. You're even continuing to push and criticise her. How about considering a less aggressive approach, and perhaps an apology to WCD?

[MiX]

Now, how will you respond to agresssiveness_

MiX, I'm not okay with the way you're treating WCD. Please remember that you've signed the Civility Pledge, saying that you will treat other players in a civil manner. You've admitted that you were excessively aggressive, and yet you seem completely unapologetic about it. You're even continuing to push and criticise her. How about considering a less aggressive approach, and perhaps an apology to WCD?

I am a firm believer that I should be aggressive here and that Didds can take it. If I am wrong, I apologize. When I pushed my boundaries with you, the resulting arguments would be NAI. Here I believe they are not.

Sigh...okay, calm down, calm down, you can do this...

@WCD, please explain why you wanted me to answer that question. In as great detail as possible. I'm trying to calm down...I still think that was a scumslip. And I still want an answer...please don't take this personally...
Ah, and also answer the points I made in the other post, of course.

I get to order around my scumreads. Especially when they slip this hard...it's not at all scummy to do so, because "scummy in life" does not exist.

I withdraw this statement, I believe this was over the line.


I hope everyone can see where I'm coming from with this...

[SpaceAnemone]

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

This is my thought as well as I am rereading

vote: 2.71828.....

Why? I don't think I've seen cases against e and he seems pretty town to me. Also, sheeping a meh, if not bad, vote is just...lazy, as (I think) Didds put it. Scumpoints!

I also have to say that I've been reading the QTs of M121, and I saw this in the mason one...

LaLight: "...By the way MiX when you read this, sorry!"

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

@faust, what makes you think Swan didn't get a scumread from chicken?

This is the post from MiX that shraeye and WCD commented on. TBH, my response to it was also bafflement, because MiX appears to be calling LL "adorable" and then pseudo-voting for him all on one line, which kind of implies that the two events are somehow linked. Then he also implies on the same line that FoS is like doubling his vote (which is in itself a highly questionnable statement because bussing is only interesting if you risk actually contributing to your teammate's lynch).

Anyway, spending more time re-reading the post, I assume the quote at the top is the justification for the FoS-vote, the content in the middle is a completely irrelevant aside on the theme of LL, and then the FoS-vote on LL happens, and then there's another separate point to faust tacked on the end.

tl;dr I found the a structure of the post pretty hard to follow, even though I'm familiar with the FoS acronym.

PPE 1

[shraeye]

It's probably the exact thing I noticed, and it needed to be asked/sorted, because you've either had A) a terrible choice of words, or B) knowledge about LaLights role, or C) are crumbing (who are we to know how closely youve read stuff)

[shraeye]

West coast didn't scumslip, but both her and I just did a double-take because it looked like YOU did to me.  Now I see your explanation and Im pretty sure it was just bad word choice.

[shraeye]

Still, if LaLight ever flips as scum double voter, nothing in the world will stop me from immediately voting you.

[WestCoastDidds]

I am super-twisted up about this MiX thing. He rubbed me wrong in his initial aggro response and then the non-apology and assumption that I can “take” even more aggression feels really disrespectful to me.

For a few minutes, I was just gonna quit the game because seriously, my life has too much of that kind of treatment and I don’t need more “for fun”. But space and shraeye seem to think he’s out of line, too, so maybe my feelings aren’t coming out of nowhere.

So, I’m gonna hang with my guy and my cats and drink a bunch of wine and see what I think about it all in the morning or whenever it is that I’m not feeling so angry and belittled.

[Jimmmmm]

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

[jotheonah]

Everyone, please be cool. A quick re-read of the Civility Pledge might be a good move for some folks. We're all here to have fun. Vote count coming soon.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.4

Even higher than that, on the upper level of the promenade, Jake and Nog sit dangling their legs over the edge of the walkway, looking out the station window at the wormhole.

"It's been a long time since we've done this, hasn't it?" Jake asks.

"These were simpler times," Nog says. "Watching the freighters. Making fun of ambassadors. Pulling pranks on Odo."

"So hey, what do you know about all this spy stuff?" Jake asks, pulling out a PADD. "My Dad won't tell me anything, but I think it could make for a great article."

"Oh no," Nog says. "I'm not going to be your Starfleet leak source. You could get me into a lot of trouble."

Jake looks dejected, but not surprised.

"C'mon, buddy," Nog says. "Let's go get a Jumja stick, for old time's sake."


faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888
shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
LaLight (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
WestCoastDidds (1): MiX
No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

Not voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players. Day 1 ends at 8 a.m. forum time on Saturday, March 2.

[shraeye]

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Yeah, that was my immediate assumption; and when I looked for it it wasn't there.  Hence my need for an explanation.  And if WestCoast hadn't popped in with the question "are you double voter?" I sure as heck would have.

I think MiX got super excited about finding somebody doing something anti-town.  But, firstly, it wasn't anti-town to get that clarification from MiX; he brought that upon himself and made it necessary (at least from my perspective).  And secondly, even if you think you caught scum, there have got to be levels to handling it.  MiX brought it to a much too high level; I hope that he can realize this, apologize, and scale it back.

WestCoast, you drink you some good wine (hope it's a savignon blanc from New Zealand).

[2.71828.....]

WestCoast, you drink you some good wine (hope it's a savignon blanc from New Zealand).

I don't know, a Riesling from Germany (dry, not sweet) is quickly moving up my list of favorite wines after moving here.

[2.71828.....]

That being said, shows of emotion (show not meaning faked, just displayed in thread) mean different things for different people, and can often be town v town situations as both parties 1) have limited information and 2) are fully convinced in their own mind they are absolutely correct.

And then hopefully all that is required is a cool down period, an emphatic look at the other person's point of view, and we develop a read on situation from there.

For me, I think it is relatively likely MiX and WCD are town

[2.71828.....]

Also,

Vote: DatSwan

[2.71828.....]

They feel like they have been flying under the radar and I didn't really like their chicken vote

[2.71828.....]

Commenting on FoS: in my opinion it is silly. I guess it just highlights a scum read that you don't want to vote for....which again, just vote for them. Or not.

I prefer just giving everyone a fair shot. I feel like a Voltaire inspired Way Too Early Reads list is in order, but not before breakfast

[Chickenwarlord]

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Same here. Honestly there were some pretty baffling leaps involved in the entire affair. MiX seems to be trying really hard to stir up something, which definitely feels like a fairly botched town play to try and get some sort of lynch going - but a very poorly thought out and executed one. Not sure if I buy it though.
 

They feel like they have been flying under the radar and I didn't really like their chicken vote

I would definitely like to see more discussion from them considering their rather unceremonious vote drop.

[faust]

I feel like I wasn't particularly misrepresenting you, unless I misunderstand something. When you made that comment to me, I'd expressed surprise that someone had any read on Ash from two posts, and you suggested that it's possible to read alignment from two posts if it's possible for 200K posts. Then when discussing Chickenwarlord, you equated his two posts to an implied zero posts (because "other people have posted"). What did I miss?

None of the people to vote for Chickenwarlord have expressed any sort of read on him beyond voting. So if they do have a scumread, I want them to clarify, because it doesn't look like it.

FWIW, I think unless there's something with the information content of an undisputable scumslip, then any post can only give partial indication of an alignment, and you need an accumulation of posts before anyone's alignment swings significantly away from the default assumption. (I'm feeling pleased with myself for not saying "prior" after that whole discussion with Haddock in your Radch mafia game).

Yes but as you say post post can give indication. Obviously reads based on more posts will be better most of the time, but well it is D1.

[faust]

I wanted Dukat dead for strategy reasons. Lynching Dukat means not lynching a useful PR. It also means removing a liability. Of course the UB changes the first part, and makes it so that it largely does not matter whom we lynch from a PR perspective.

Much as I like D1s, I also like utilizing setup info to my advantage, and in an open setup if there is a good plan it outweighs reads for me. Especially in multiball where scum can legitimately scumhunt and thus is even harder to catch.

And that's better (disregarding the UB and PR usefulness) than lynching Dukat the day before LYLO why?

Why disregarding that? That is the major benefit. If we're lynching Eddie, we are not lynching some important role.

Also we don't know when LyLo is exactly because the number of deaths per night fluctuates and we don't know how many scums we have.

Also, are you giving Uncleeurope less towncred for his claim because you suggested it?

No, I think he was genuine in saying that he wanted to claim all along. Not that I am giving towncred for that.

[faust]

Now, how will you respond to agresssiveness_

MiX, I'm not okay with the way you're treating WCD. Please remember that you've signed the Civility Pledge, saying that you will treat other players in a civil manner. You've admitted that you were excessively aggressive, and yet you seem completely unapologetic about it. You're even continuing to push and criticise her. How about considering a less aggressive approach, and perhaps an apology to WCD?

I am a firm believer that I should be aggressive here and that Didds can take it.

Whether or not someone can "take it" is not a good indicator of proper behaviour. Maybe I think that you can take it if I punch you in the face.

It is also a myth that playing mafia well somehow requires you to be uncivil.

[faust]

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Great, so everyone gets to do "let's claim what roles we do/do not have" game.

Vote: Jimmmmm because there is no reason town should make that post.

[faust]

Whether or not someone can "take it" is not a good indicator of proper behaviour. Maybe I think that you can take it if I punch you in the face.

Also victim blaming. Suddenly it's not you who is at fault for improper behaviour, but the other person who "couldn't take it".

[MiX]

Ok that's a lot of responses. Well then. Hopefully there's something useful out of this mess...

Whether or not someone can "take it" is not a good indicator of proper behaviour. Maybe I think that you can take it if I punch you in the face.

Also victim blaming. Suddenly it's not you who is at fault for improper behaviour, but the other person who "couldn't take it".

I did not at all mean this, but it's understandable that you interpret it like that. I meant that, if I was wrong (which I was. And am.), it would be (and it is) my fault. So, I'm sorry Didds. Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry. Not sure what I can do to make up for it...

So...EVERYONE had problems parsing my post. Well that's a pretty big problem...especially if everyone thinks I would claim this early. Well, don't worry about it, when I claim, I bold it, so mistakes don't happen.

I didn't like Didds' incredibly direct question with no right answer. I think she's much wordier than that and it felt like a trap, uncharacteristic of Didds' play (for me at least). But then this happened:

Still, if LaLight ever flips as scum double voter, nothing in the world will stop me from immediately voting you.

What is this? Why would you say this? Where's the logic behind it? You think I slipped? This is such an awkward post, it makes no sense!

Correct! Thank you for taking your time with that post, it seems to be that you'll have to do that with a lot of my posts, given that this one's not exacty simple.


And I like faust's vote, so shameless sheep:

Vote: Jimmmmm

Also just want to get on this wagon again.

[Awaclus]

I have no idea what's going on. I'll try to catch up today.

[Swowl]

So this is all I can find on the "MiX Vs WCD" bit:

1) MiX Quote: "That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the powe

2)

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

What did I miss?

What do you mean by this?

Are you the double voter MiX?

3)

Dude, you can take off of the bossy boots right now. You don't get to order me, or anyone else, around. It's scummy AF in the game and in life, and I am not having it.

You said "That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!"

Sure seems like you are saying you have two votes, I am not the only one confused, and you're FoS is just as good as a vote discussion is nonsensical to me. And no one says anyone has to obey UoS list of rules to be followed about roles, so I'm not sure that you are although you are quoting it here like its part of the setup.

I didn't make a mistake. I read more carefully than you do (see the Space gender discussion that you either didn't read or disregarded). Looks to me like you are saying you have two votes, so I am just making sure. Doubling down on me for pointing it out because the question doesn't follow the rules you believe have been established while trying to discipline me in the process...not cool.

4)

Now, how will you respond to agresssiveness_

MiX, I'm not okay with the way you're treating WCD. Please remember that you've signed the Civility Pledge, saying that you will treat other players in a civil manner. You've admitted that you were excessively aggressive, and yet you seem completely unapologetic about it. You're even continuing to push and criticise her. How about considering a less aggressive approach, and perhaps an apology to WCD?

I am a firm believer that I should be aggressive here and that Didds can take it. If I am wrong, I apologize. When I pushed my boundaries with you, the resulting arguments would be NAI. Here I believe they are not.

Sigh...okay, calm down, calm down, you can do this...

@WCD, please explain why you wanted me to answer that question. In as great detail as possible. I'm trying to calm down...I still think that was a scumslip. And I still want an answer...please don't take this personally...
Ah, and also answer the points I made in the other post, of course.

I get to order around my scumreads. Especially when they slip this hard...it's not at all scummy to do so, because "scummy in life" does not exist.

I withdraw this statement, I believe this was over the line.


I hope everyone can see where I'm coming from with this...

Then a final post from MiX like 10 posts ago going over summarizing and whatever.


All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

In this game the odds of a planned interaction are kind of diluted given the possibility of skum teams so I am inclined to believe Town vs Town.

[Swowl]

Faust/E - literally no reason for my initial Chicken vote. 18 player game, wanted to see if something could get going. But I like where it lays now.

[Swowl]

WCD - do you prefer "she"?

If so I am sorry. We have played a lot of games together and I have just never caught onto that.

[ashersky]

Going back to the Ferengi thing; I guess my odd question got us some info after all.  Not very useful, maybe, but something.

MiX vs. WCD felt planned/planted, as posited by DatSwan.  That said, I know neither of them at all (as compared to, say, Jimmmm or faust), so who knows.  Of course, I run on the coarser side of things.

Lots of pages, not a lot of content coming from those pages, otherwise. 

Blatant role speculation incoming...obligatory "could be my own role I'm acting like I don't know" WIFOM statement...

Do we think the Double Voter can vote separately?  Or is one bolded vote counted twice on the vote count?

It's elementary to figure out; just have everyone vote.  The fact that some haven't voted (SA, is your script up and running) feels like an effort to hide the "unhide-able" double vote, which is scummy.  I'm looking at Awaclus, I think, who hasn't voted, and also shraeye, maybe?  Anyone else?

For now, vote: awaclus for not being very Awaclusian and until he votes.

[Awaclus]

Vote: ashersky

Is this better?

[ashersky]

Vote: ashersky

Is this better?

Yes!  Thank you.

Also, for someone who's recent post was about being behind and such, that was quite the quick post.

[faust]

Do we think the Double Voter can vote separately?  Or is one bolded vote counted twice on the vote count?

It's elementary to figure out; just have everyone vote.

It's even more elementary to figure out: Just ask joth.

[faust]

Also, for someone who's recent post was about being behind and such, that was quite the quick post.

Are we in the territory again of suspecting people of pointlessly lying about IRL stuff? Please let's not go there.

[faust]

And ash, please respond to this:

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

You voted for Chickenwarlord. Now you are not. How has this helped town?

[WestCoastDidds]

WCD - do you prefer "she"?

If so I am sorry. We have played a lot of games together and I have just never caught onto that.

Really? That’s funny, you’ve never messed it up! She or they is cool by me. As long as it isn’t he, I don’t really care.

[WestCoastDidds]

Thanks for the support, y’all. I appreciate it. It was Survivor and Petite Syrah. Wednesday nights are awesome.

Mix, in regard to your last question....I don’t think of set up talk as revealing, really. Especially when the set up is complicated. As a relatively new player, it’s generally helpful to me, especially since I was a VT my first few games and didn’t know much about how roles worked or interacted. (Proof of this is in the Imperiall Radch game when I literally didn’t understand what I did until someone else explained it to me.) I understand why it can be scummy, but it’s not to me. I have only been in one game where we caught scum D1, and it was because of the way he was justifying his votes. In the game where I played the best, it was voting patterns that outed scum for me. So, that tends to be where I look most closely.

As to the double voter and my direct question. I was having trouble following you. My thoughts were, is he saying he has two votes? That LL has two votes? That the FoS is a vote (I’ve never seen that terminology before and had to look it up)? So I asked you if you were saying you were a double voter. I wasn’t PR hunting, just trying to follow. If it was a breadcrumb, it was like a whole slice and warranted a follow up. The double voter can’t be concealed so I wasn’t thinking it was super secret info, especially since you seems to be saying you had two votes. If that isn’t what you were saying, that seems easy enough for you to answer. Obviously, I wasn’t the only one not following you on this.

In the future, if you think I’m scum, please just vote for me. I’m not going to respond to personal attacks, direct orders, or aggression in any way that will help you or anyone else. My weak spot in the game is not how I respond to aggression. My job surrounds me with a whole host of young-adult aggro dudes who think they know more about everything than anyone, so dealing with them is work. I don’t choose to do it for fun.

Finally, in response to planned/plant folks....nope. The only thing that took real planning was crafting the response where I checked out for the evening because I was angry and kept resorting to juvenile name-calling and had to revise more than usual to avoid melting anyone’s face. You can count on me not to deliberately try to do anything that helps characterize me as more emotional than I already am.

[ashersky]

Also, for someone who's recent post was about being behind and such, that was quite the quick post.

Are we in the territory again of suspecting people of pointlessly lying about IRL stuff? Please let's not go there.

Or we can go there.  How often is there a "if they were scum they'd be posting more" argument made?  "IRL stuff" is just as much the human element of the game as it is being busy or available or online.  I'm not saying Awaclus lied about being busy working or drumming or whatever.  He just said "man I'm behind" and then was responding to the newest post in the game.  It's about the discrepancy between "being behind" and being able to respond quickly to the newest post, which tells me Awaclus had read up to that point already, possibly meaning his previous post was an exaggeration to cover for not posting too much.  Or maybe more time passed than I thought and he caught up, or maybe he reads super fast, I don't know.  But Awaclus could have answered that himself.

And ash, please respond to this:

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

You voted for Chickenwarlord. Now you are not. How has this helped town?

It achieved a small wagon and some discussion on the merits of voting for CW.  CW also came back and posted some.  And it got votes on the record from players that may be useful in the late game when looking at interactions.

At the very worst, it was neutral, and most definitely it was better than at least half of the rest of the "contributions" to the game so far by other players.

How have any of your posts helped town?

[Awaclus]

Also, for someone who's recent post was about being behind and such, that was quite the quick post.

Are we in the territory again of suspecting people of pointlessly lying about IRL stuff? Please let's not go there.

Or we can go there.  How often is there a "if they were scum they'd be posting more" argument made?  "IRL stuff" is just as much the human element of the game as it is being busy or available or online.  I'm not saying Awaclus lied about being busy working or drumming or whatever.  He just said "man I'm behind" and then was responding to the newest post in the game.  It's about the discrepancy between "being behind" and being able to respond quickly to the newest post, which tells me Awaclus had read up to that point already, possibly meaning his previous post was an exaggeration to cover for not posting too much.  Or maybe more time passed than I thought and he caught up, or maybe he reads super fast, I don't know.  But Awaclus could have answered that himself.

And ash, please respond to this:

Wondering - what do people think their Chickenwarlord votes will achieve?

You voted for Chickenwarlord. Now you are not. How has this helped town?

It achieved a small wagon and some discussion on the merits of voting for CW.  CW also came back and posted some.  And it got votes on the record from players that may be useful in the late game when looking at interactions.

At the very worst, it was neutral, and most definitely it was better than at least half of the rest of the "contributions" to the game so far by other players.

How have any of your posts helped town?

I'm reading all the new posts but there's stuff in between that I have only skimmed over.

[ashersky]

I'm reading all the new posts but there's stuff in between that I have only skimmed over.

Credible.

Any thoughts on any specific players?

[Awaclus]

I'm reading all the new posts but there's stuff in between that I have only skimmed over.

Credible.

Any thoughts on any specific players?

Vote: e

[mcmcsalot]

I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote

[Glooble]

I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote

Why is it faust's Jimmmmm vote? I've been voting for Jimmmm since page 13.

Can someone on this e wagon please point out where its coming from? And don't use the words "seems" or "feels".

[WestCoastDidds]

More for myself than anyone else:

Day 1 ends on Saturday at 8am FT.  So, 46ish hours from now...

[mcmcsalot]

More for myself than anyone else:

Day 1 ends on Saturday at 8am FT.  So, 46ish hours from now...

Oo that’s good to know for me too, I’ll be visiting friends. Guess I need to do some work at lunch time today

[Uncleeurope]

I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote

Why is it faust's Jimmmmm vote? I've been voting for Jimmmm since page 13.

Can someone on this e wagon please point out where its coming from? And don't use the words "seems" or "feels".

I know that I’m not on the wagon (yet) but it seems to me that e feels scummy.

Would you say that you have a case without those words on someone else?

[faust]

I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote

Why is it faust's Jimmmmm vote? I've been voting for Jimmmm since page 13.

I am just much more sheepable.

[faust]

More for myself than anyone else:

Day 1 ends on Saturday at 8am FT.  So, 46ish hours from now...

I think there is some consolidation necessary beforehand then. I'm not sure we can rely on a burst of activity on a Saturday morning. Currently the following players have more than 1 vote on them:

e, shraeye, Awaclus, Jimmmmm

[LaLight]

I can see the reasoning behind Jimmmmm votes but I think e's lynch is much more informative and probable to be scum lynch.

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m willing to move to e or Jimmmmm. I’m interested in hearing the answers to Glooble’s question.
But in the meantime, all feels and seems...vote: e

[faust]

I can see the reasoning behind Jimmmmm votes but I think e's lynch is much more informative and probable to be scum lynch.

Why?

[WestCoastDidds]

I am just much more sheepable.

Without being at all sheepish. Or sheep-like.

Baaaad, I know.

[faust]

I can see the reasoning behind Jimmmmm votes but I think e's lynch is much more informative and probable to be scum lynch.

Why?

Also why do you frame this a e vs Jimmmmm?

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.5

Vedek Bariel walks into Garak's shop, because I'm running out of characters I haven't used in the flavor yet and the ones I have left don't really fit together in a logical way. Also, Bariel shouldn't even be in this game because technically he's dead at this point in the timeline. But I digress.

"This is a tailor shop, right?" the Vedek asks.

"Of course!" the Cardassian replies. "And I, as anyone will tell you, am a plain, simple tailor. Elim Garak, at your service."

"Of course I've heard of you Mr. Garak. And I have to say, I admire you for sticking around on the station. My people need to heal, and having a Cardassian working among them is an important part of that healing."

"Good of you to say, but I'm afraid the only healing I can help you with is sewing up a tear in your garments."

"Well that's exactly what I'm here about. I was leading services at the temple and somehow the mob got very riled up. I had to break up a fight and my best vestments got torn." He gestures to a small rip in his sleeve.

"This should be no problem," Garak says. "I can have it stitched up by tomorrow. But the high tensions among your flock, that's your problem to solve."

"I'm afraid until we catch whatever spies might be lurking around, I'll need to be a little more careful with all my garments," Bariel replies.


faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, MiX, faust
Awaclus (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....

No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

Not voting (1): Shraeye

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players. Day 1 ends at 8 a.m. forum time on Saturday, March 2.

Also, the question wasn't bolded, but open setup is open so here's some information about Kai Winn's double vote. She can use it one day per game and must use it publicly by typing "doublevote: Name". Once she does, she can use the commands "undoublevote" and "doublevote: different name" to move it around. It persists for the rest of the game day, but expires after that, whether or not she ended the day with it on a player.

[faust]

faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope, faust
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (1): Awaclus

No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

Not voting (1): Shraeye

There seem to be some issues with this. I should be voting for Jimmmmm. ahsersky is voting for Awaclus.

[faust]

Also Awaclus is somehow voting for both e and ashersky.

[jotheonah]

Oops. I mixed up the little green stars and read two of ashersky's posts as faust's. Should be correct now.

[Glooble]

I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote

Why is it faust's Jimmmmm vote? I've been voting for Jimmmm since page 13.

Can someone on this e wagon please point out where its coming from? And don't use the words "seems" or "feels".

 I know that I’m not on the wagon (yet) but it seems to me that e feels scummy.

Would you say that you have a case without those words on someone else?

I would articulate my case on Jimmmm, at the time that I voted for him, as being because he was mostly lurking, then popped up to state some townreads (genuinely not that helpful in such a big game, especially as they were on players who weren't under much threat) and say shraeye felt scummy, which just seemed like a low-effort post in order to not be the lurker lynch and maybe to nudge town slightly towards the shraeye lynch, but not in a way that tied Jimmmm to anything if shraeye was lynched and came up down. It was a hedgy post and I thought it was low-key scummy.


Since then he's done nothing to dissuade me from that belief, and no one else has done anything particularly scummy as far as I've noticed. MiX vs. shraeye seems much more like town v town to me than a scumslip for either of them. The post Jimmmm made that faust found scummy didn't seem particularly scummy to me, but I can see how it might seem scummy to someone who knows Jimmmm's meta better than I do.


So I guess my question is for faust: do you feel that you know Jimmm's meta particularly well and that town!Jimmm specifically would not have made this post:

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

And I guess along those sems lines my question for e voters is what is it about e's play in this game that doesn't feel like the town!e you've played with before? It would be helpful if you could give a specific example.

I'm not opposed to an e lynch today. I'd like to see a real case though.

I do not support a shraeye lynch today.

[Glooble]

Sorry I meant to say "MiX vs. WCD", not MiX vs. Shraeye.

[WestCoastDidds]

I didn’t find Jimmmm’s post scummy because it felt like he was just chiming in on the confusion about MiX’s post in the midst of our dust up about it.

But I don’t know Jimmmmm at all, not even sure how many Mmmmms there should be, so that was just my sense at the time. (Feels, seems, etc)

[raerae]

Can somebody help me understand the "not shraeye" movement? I don't know that he's done anything tremendously townie so it seems like a weird line to draw in the sand.

[Glooble]

Can somebody help me understand the "not shraeye" movement? I don't know that he's done anything tremendously townie so it seems like a weird line to draw in the sand.

I can only speak for myself- I don't know anything about a movement. Shraeye's explanation of his position re: no lynching, while I still disagree with it, felt very towny to me. There are lots of people in this game I have null reads on, so I don't want to lynch one of my few townreads.

Of the people with more than one vote on them, my lynch order would be:

Jimmmmm
e/ Awaclus
shraeye

Awaclus and e are both pretty null to me, and there's pros and cons to each. We get much more useful info from an e lynch, since e has been more active today. But town!e is more useful later in the game. Though I've never played a game with town!Awaclus so maybe there is some merit to his attack-dog style that I'm just not aware of.

[faust]

So I guess my question is for faust: do you feel that you know Jimmm's meta particularly well and that town!Jimmm specifically would not have made this post:

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

I don't think I know Jimmmmm's meta very well. I think that post helps keep alive a discussion that benefits scum. I think town!Jimmmmm is a competent enough player to realize that. I think scum is less worried about softclaiming PR stuff because it doesn't really hurt their faction. Most of this read has nothing to do with Jimmmmm's meta in particular, other than he is an experienced player.

Also he's a lurker. I much prefer to lynch lurkers early on, particularly in a big game like this.

[faust]

I can only speak for myself- I don't know anything about a movement. Shraeye's explanation of his position re: no lynching, while I still disagree with it, felt very towny to me.

I am very sure that shraeye holds the belief that town should be more open to no lynching independent of the game and his alignment. I don't understand how you could think this says anything about his alignment.

[Glooble]

I can only speak for myself- I don't know anything about a movement. Shraeye's explanation of his position re: no lynching, while I still disagree with it, felt very towny to me.

I am very sure that shraeye holds the belief that town should be more open to no lynching independent of the game and his alignment. I don't understand how you could think this says anything about his alignment.

I'll be clearer.

The only thing scummy I saw about shraeye was his pro-no lynch position. Having not played with shraeye before, I didn't know that was just a thing for him. Once he made his case, the position no longer seemed scummy to me. It still seemed wrong, but it took away the scummiest part of shraeye for me and I was left with a townread.

Is this townread reliable? Certainly not. It's as flimsy as any day one read. But its enough to make me not want to lynch him.

[Glooble]

I guess I should reread shraeye and figure out where this townread is coming from, since I admit its kind of a gut thing at this point.

[mcmcsalot]

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

[Glooble]

I do like Dukat claiming, now I don't have to argue about it though.

Also we obviously can't control when people claim, but faust, shraeye and others (and Joth in the Ancillary game) are really pushing this thing where it's all up to the town. Obvious it is up to the individual players but it is very much worth discussing. I was serious when I said I thought it had hurt town in Ancillary Mafia, the only thing I was lying about there was being upset about it.

This game is open so for the new players, scum have no value in fake claiming here, since every single one of us has a unique name from a known list. Towns lately seem to love randomly claiming their roles at L-4 or whatever and it's hugely anti-town. Even if your role is not a likely NK target, you narrow the pool of targets for the roles scum are looking for and it hurts everyone else.

Mafia is a team game, and decisions each player makes effect their whole team.

I don't know where this argument is coming from, but multiple players across multiple games are saying things with similar language so it's getting to be kind of a meme and I really think it's bad play that we should clamp down on.

In RMM51, it definitely helped scum a ton that a lot of information was available and that a lot of it was true. We were able to make very informed decisions most nights.

This quote actually makes me not want to lynch Awaclus today. What he says here is undoubtably true, and I think if he'd rolled scum again its more likely he would have tried to get town to make the same mistakes than point those mistakes out of towncred. But WiFoM as awlays.

[Uncleeurope]

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

I keep thinking that as well.

[Glooble]

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[shraeye]

More for myself than anyone else:

Day 1 ends on Saturday at 8am FT.  So, 46ish hours from now...

Holy smokes!

[shraeye]

Can somebody help me understand the "not shraeye" movement? I don't know that he's done anything tremendously townie so it seems like a weird line to draw in the sand.

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

[shraeye]

I still like my E vote, I would also happily sheep Faust’s Jimm vote

Why is it faust's Jimmmmm vote? I've been voting for Jimmmm since page 13.

Can someone on this e wagon please point out where its coming from? And don't use the words "seems" or "feels".

I think as Uncle's explanation makes clear, it's not possible.

I know that I’m not on the wagon (yet) but it seems to me that e feels scummy.

e is a sheepy sheepy wagon; vote analysis will NOT be useful if he is our lynch.  For people who are against my brilliant no-lynch-is-always-an-option movement, you all seem very excited to create a SUUUUPER uninformative lynch.  Shame shame shame.

[shraeye]

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

I keep thinking that as well.

vote: Glooble
I'm also down with that; for somebody who is against the e lynch because it's all based on "seems" and "feels", why is he giving me towncred based on how he feels??
He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 
His analysis of the ash Ferengi misunderstanding still doesn't sit well with me.
And he's up there on my list of saying many things, but not really pushing many things.

[raerae]

Can somebody help me understand the "not shraeye" movement? I don't know that he's done anything tremendously townie so it seems like a weird line to draw in the sand.

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Honey, I hate you for so many other reasons.  (Ex. Where is my spare key?!)

[2.71828.....]

So, kind of at the point where there is actually a non-zero chance that I get lynched today.

Is there any other case except "he feels off"?

And for those people with the feels, is there anything specific that I can comment on?

[shraeye]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

In this game the odds of a planned interaction are kind of diluted given the possibility of skum teams so I am inclined to believe Town vs Town.

A) third parties don't get to decide when offense is allowed/is not allowed to be taken
B) it does not feel planned.  That is a terrible conclusion

MiX vs. WCD felt planned/planted, as posited by DatSwan. 

Absolutely not.  This idea needs to be buried immediately.

[Glooble]

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

I keep thinking that as well.

vote: Glooble
I'm also down with that; for somebody who is against the e lynch because it's all based on "seems" and "feels", why is he giving me towncred based on how he feels??
He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 
His analysis of the ash Ferengi misunderstanding still doesn't sit well with me.
And he's up there on my list of saying many things, but not really pushing many things.

Pushing things on day one is scummy though. Because there's so little to go on. Eventually we do have to reach a consensus, which is why I was looking at the wagons we already have people on and trying to see what the least bad option was. I settled on Jimmm, I laid out my reasoning. I realized the hypocrisy of my reasoning re: e and shraeye, so I decided to reread shraeye. Didn't find much that screamed town- didn't find anything that screamed scum either. I did stumble on that Awaclus post while I was doing the reread because we have two people voting for Awaclus right now and I wanted to point that out in case it changed their minds.

I agree with you my lynch would be somewhat informative, because I've been contributing. But that also makes me more valuable to have around on later days. In other ways my lynch wouldn't be very informative because while I've been making a lot of posts, there haven't been a lot of votes on me, or even a huge amount of interaction with my posts- in fact I've felt pretty invisible until just now, despite my attempts to contribute.

[2.71828.....]

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

I keep thinking that as well.

vote: Glooble
I'm also down with that; for somebody who is against the e lynch because it's all based on "seems" and "feels", why is he giving me towncred based on how he feels??
He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 
His analysis of the ash Ferengi misunderstanding still doesn't sit well with me.
And he's up there on my list of saying many things, but not really pushing many things.

Pushing things on day one is scummy though. Because there's so little to go on. Eventually we do have to reach a consensus, which is why I was looking at the wagons we already have people on and trying to see what the least bad option was. I settled on Jimmm, I laid out my reasoning. I realized the hypocrisy of my reasoning re: e and shraeye, so I decided to reread shraeye. Didn't find much that screamed town- didn't find anything that screamed scum either. I did stumble on that Awaclus post while I was doing the reread because we have two people voting for Awaclus right now and I wanted to point that out in case it changed their minds.

I agree with you my lynch would be somewhat informative, because I've been contributing. But that also makes me more valuable to have around on later days. In other ways my lynch wouldn't be very informative because while I've been making a lot of posts, there haven't been a lot of votes on me, or even a huge amount of interaction with my posts- in fact I've felt pretty invisible until just now, despite my attempts to contribute.

I absolutely and totally disagree with the bolded/underlined portion of this quote.

Scum does not want to push things because they don't want to commit to anything.  Town should never be afraid to be bold about their reads and push them.

[Glooble]

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

I keep thinking that as well.

vote: Glooble
I'm also down with that; for somebody who is against the e lynch because it's all based on "seems" and "feels", why is he giving me towncred based on how he feels??
He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 
His analysis of the ash Ferengi misunderstanding still doesn't sit well with me.
And he's up there on my list of saying many things, but not really pushing many things.

Pushing things on day one is scummy though. Because there's so little to go on. Eventually we do have to reach a consensus, which is why I was looking at the wagons we already have people on and trying to see what the least bad option was. I settled on Jimmm, I laid out my reasoning. I realized the hypocrisy of my reasoning re: e and shraeye, so I decided to reread shraeye. Didn't find much that screamed town- didn't find anything that screamed scum either. I did stumble on that Awaclus post while I was doing the reread because we have two people voting for Awaclus right now and I wanted to point that out in case it changed their minds.

I agree with you my lynch would be somewhat informative, because I've been contributing. But that also makes me more valuable to have around on later days. In other ways my lynch wouldn't be very informative because while I've been making a lot of posts, there haven't been a lot of votes on me, or even a huge amount of interaction with my posts- in fact I've felt pretty invisible until just now, despite my attempts to contribute.

I absolutely and totally disagree with the bolded/underlined portion of this quote.

Scum does not want to push things because they don't want to commit to anything.  Town should never be afraid to be bold about their reads and push them.

And I absolutely disagree with you. Town shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch that they have some evidence for. "He's just rubbing me the wrong way, let's lynch him" is not towny behavior.

[Glooble]

Reads are extremely subjective, especially on day one. There's value in sharing them, but pushing them seems like a recipe for mislynch. But I guess you've played a lot more than I have.

[MiX]

Reads are extremely subjective, especially on day one. There's value in sharing them, but pushing them seems like a recipe for mislynch. But I guess you've played a lot more than I have.

What do you suggest town does near the end of D1 then? Keep interacting? How would we (attempt to, shraeye) lynch anyone if we don't trust our reads? No: we need to push our gut, ultimately it's what mafia's all about.

@Glooble, I have a feeling I asked this already, but how would you describe your meta?

[Uncleeurope]

So, kind of at the point where there is actually a non-zero chance that I get lynched today.

Is there any other case except "he feels off"?

And for those people with the feels, is there anything specific that I can comment on?

As near as I can tell my wariness spawns from you having some assertions early on regarding certain players that seemed to be strong despite weird evidence. Weird. Scummy, even, but not enough for me to have a whole lot of confidence yet in a vote.

That being said, Gloobie interests me, and Robz as well.

I also think this weird dance going on between gloobie, Shraeye, e, MiX and Faust is weird. Lots of people getting the “yeah, they are town” or whatever. Don’t have strong opinions there one way or the other, just seems a bit faster for some of those claims than I would have done.

Also, Unvote, so people stop considering Awaclus because he has multiple votes.

[Glooble]

Reads are extremely subjective, especially on day one. There's value in sharing them, but pushing them seems like a recipe for mislynch. But I guess you've played a lot more than I have.

What do you suggest town does near the end of D1 then? Keep interacting? How would we (attempt to, shraeye) lynch anyone if we don't trust our reads? No: we need to push our gut, ultimately it's what mafia's all about.

If five people independently find e scummy, there's probably something to that. Some specific thing he has said that one of those people can point to to try and convince the rest of us. I haven't seen anyone offer such a thing. I on the other hand, have provided a specific Jimmmm post that seems scummy to me and why it seems scummy to me. If everyone does that, if everyone justifies their votes better than with a "gut feeling", and then everyone else can look at that justification and decide if they agree with it, that's how we advance on day one.

@Glooble, I have a feeling I asked this already, but how would you describe your meta?

I would describe my meta as "evolving". It changes from game to game as I learn new things. I try very hard not to react emotionally or take votes as attacks, but I'm an emotional person so sometimes I do. I'm anxious. I freak out when there's a wagon on me, regardless of alignment.

This game- what you see is what you get. I ask questions. I clarify when I don't understand something. I point out when a post feels towny or scummy to me. But I point out the specific post and why. I discuss the setup if there is something that I think will be helpful for town to know, won't be harmful for scum to know, and doesn't feel obvious to me. I'm always up for strategizing. Mostly I just want people to talk because at the end of the day one of us is probably going to get lynched, and I'd like to get something out of that lynch.

[Uncleeurope]

Your meta is evolving and this game what we see is what we get, eh?

Vote: Gloobie

[faust]

He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 

Boo.

[shraeye]

He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 

Boo.

Yeah, I feel you, but it does increase utility of his lynch over e's.

Seriously, cross-reference the list of people who said I was crazy for advocating no-lynch because of all the information I'd be giving up against the list of people who are currently advocating lynch of 2.71, or are voting for chickenwarlord because of inactivity. 

That group of people is either scummy, or seriously not thinking through their no-lynch position.

[Uncleeurope]

He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 

Boo.

Yeah, I feel you, but it does increase utility of his lynch over e's.

Seriously, cross-reference the list of people who said I was crazy for advocating no-lynch because of all the information I'd be giving up against the list of people who are currently advocating lynch of 2.71, or are voting for chickenwarlord because of inactivity. 

That group of people is either scummy, or seriously not thinking through their no-lynch position.

I would lynch an inactive person over nobody 80% of the time. That being said, the inactive player is Robz over CWL, IMO.

[Uncleeurope]

(That being said I would lynch nobody over a town read 95% of the time)

[MiX]

Chicken, my boy! How much have you read past games? Did you do that at all? Do you know anyone's meta? Maybe at least Gloobles? Also, how active have you been these past days? Will you be here at deadline?

Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as.

So you also think Didds isn't playing as usual? Have you played with her? How would you best describe her town meta? I think I have a good feel but I want to hear from someone else.

Thank you for your answer. Doesn't change much, but I am forced to accept that town in general had the same thoughts as you, which means I can't scumread you for it. The question, however...well. Anyway, thx.

Also people are saying MiX vs Didds is town vs town and, well, if with less information than me people say that, maybe I'm just tunnelling......

I would be very open to lynching Glooble based of the recent interactions. Seems a bit like scum trying to put more emphasis than there really is on things (the shraeye read)

This has been your first post that I truly agree with. Which reminds me, you're been heavily lurking, your biggest impact has been this, the setup talk at the start and saying "I would lynch Glooble". Can you give a reason for your vote on E? I believe yours is the most important one of them all.

Who'll be here at deadline? I know I will.


Okay, big(?) post done! Time for good old fashioned read lists!

[2.71828.....]

I should be on at deadline as well

[Glooble]

I can get up early to be here at deadline I guess.

[faust]

He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 

Boo.

Yeah, I feel you, but it does increase utility of his lynch over e's.

Seriously, cross-reference the list of people who said I was crazy for advocating no-lynch because of all the information I'd be giving up against the list of people who are currently advocating lynch of 2.71, or are voting for chickenwarlord because of inactivity. 

That group of people is either scummy, or seriously not thinking through their no-lynch position.

Anz lynch we make will be informative because there will be 10 people who voted for that person. That's plenty of interaction. It is however completely backwards to want to lynch active players. Active players have interacted with lots of people, and this makes them easier to read once some of those people have flipped. On lurkers we won't have any more info D3 than we do now.

[faust]

I think I can make the deadline. No promises though.

[Glooble]

He's got a healthy set of interactions, making it an actually informative lynch. 

Boo.

Yeah, I feel you, but it does increase utility of his lynch over e's.

Seriously, cross-reference the list of people who said I was crazy for advocating no-lynch because of all the information I'd be giving up against the list of people who are currently advocating lynch of 2.71, or are voting for chickenwarlord because of inactivity. 

That group of people is either scummy, or seriously not thinking through their no-lynch position.

Anz lynch we make will be informative because there will be 10 people who voted for that person. That's plenty of interaction. It is however completely backwards to want to lynch active players. Active players have interacted with lots of people, and this makes them easier to read once some of those people have flipped. On lurkers we won't have any more info D3 than we do now.

Lynching active players also incentivizes lurking.

[WestCoastDidds]

Same

I’ll be around some tomorrow, too

[shraeye]

I don't see what I'm saying as promoting "lynch active players."  It's frustrating to see that this is the message people are taking away.

[shraeye]

Imagine that 10 people right now say

"vote: e
dunno, just feels off"

So e is lynched.  If e turns up town, how do we differentiate from people expression honest but lame reads, and people who used lame reads as cover?  Order on the wagon?? That introduces a ton of assumptions with little to no reasons why they might be true. ("well if I were scum, I'd vote early"  "but *I* would want to be late on the wagon as scum")

What if e turns up scum?  Well great scum doesn't want to lynch partners, so the wagon is towny! But if your partner were slowly becoming a lynch prospect, wouldn't you get on the wagon?  Well, AAA would and BBB wouldn't; CCC would defend their partner and DDD never would.  All we have is WIFOM, and any serious attempt at vote-count analysis is just disguised guesswork.

>>>

Y'all can't tell me how informative and important a lynch is, and at the same time let so many people explain their vote with "I just have a feeling".

[MiX]

Imagine that 10 people right now say

"vote: e
dunno, just feels off"

So e is lynched.  If e turns up town, how do we differentiate from people expression honest but lame reads, and people who used lame reads as cover?  Order on the wagon?? That introduces a ton of assumptions with little to no reasons why they might be true. ("well if I were scum, I'd vote early"  "but *I* would want to be late on the wagon as scum")

What if e turns up scum?  Well great scum doesn't want to lynch partners, so the wagon is towny! But if your partner were slowly becoming a lynch prospect, wouldn't you get on the wagon?  Well, AAA would and BBB wouldn't; CCC would defend their partner and DDD never would.  All we have is WIFOM, and any serious attempt at vote-count analysis is just disguised guesswork.

>>>

Y'all can't tell me how informative and important a lynch is, and at the same time let so many people explain their vote with "I just have a feeling".

If that indeed happened I would scumread the last 3 votes to hell and back, because hammering someone for "feeling off" is incredibly scummy. Especially if he flipped scum. Really, you're completely underestimating town AND scum with that post, just because some people have done that doesn't mean they'll continue it when the wagon's much bigger...

I've also realized that faust moved from Robz to Jimmmmmmm and then said this:

I think there is some consolidation necessary beforehand then. I'm not sure we can rely on a burst of activity on a Saturday morning. Currently the following players have more than 1 vote on them:

e, shraeye, Awaclus, Jimmmmm

@everyone, do you think this could possibly be partner interaction? Because I think this post by faust could essencially say "let's only lynch these 4 people", which is pretty scummy if none of them are (his) scum team. Luckily there could still be scum there, but still...

Yes, yes, the read list is coming, but I think it's only useful to consider people that I think will actually get lynched...in fact I'll state those now: Jimmmmm, e, Didds, Space, LL, shraeye, Glooble, mcmc; in no particular order.

[2.71828.....]

I think there is some consolidation necessary beforehand then. I'm not sure we can rely on a burst of activity on a Saturday morning. Currently the following players have more than 1 vote on them:

e, shraeye, Awaclus, Jimmmmm

@everyone, do you think this could possibly be partner interaction? Because I think this post by faust could essencially say "let's only lynch these 4 people", which is pretty scummy if none of them are (his) scum team. Luckily there could still be scum there, but still...

I don't think it is scummy, faust beat me to it posting that.

We definitely need to narrow our focus in. We need to get 10 people to vote on a lynch. That is hard. But we need to do it.

[faust]

Imagine that 10 people right now say

"vote: e
dunno, just feels off"

So e is lynched.  If e turns up town, how do we differentiate from people expression honest but lame reads, and people who used lame reads as cover?  Order on the wagon?? That introduces a ton of assumptions with little to no reasons why they might be true. ("well if I were scum, I'd vote early"  "but *I* would want to be late on the wagon as scum")

What if e turns up scum?  Well great scum doesn't want to lynch partners, so the wagon is towny! But if your partner were slowly becoming a lynch prospect, wouldn't you get on the wagon?  Well, AAA would and BBB wouldn't; CCC would defend their partner and DDD never would.  All we have is WIFOM, and any serious attempt at vote-count analysis is just disguised guesswork.

>>>

Y'all can't tell me how informative and important a lynch is, and at the same time let so many people explain their vote with "I just have a feeling".

Not sure what you think changes if there are elaborate cases attached to the votes. The assumptions that you so fear go into any kind of wagon analysis.

[2.71828.....]

Your list of 8 people who could get lynched is interesting to me

[2.71828.....]

And we can only do wagon analysis with an actual flip. Hence why lynching someone D1 is important

[2.71828.....]

I think there is some consolidation necessary beforehand then. I'm not sure we can rely on a burst of activity on a Saturday morning. Currently the following players have more than 1 vote on them:

e, shraeye, Awaclus, Jimmmmm

@everyone, do you think this could possibly be partner interaction? Because I think this post by faust could essencially say "let's only lynch these 4 people", which is pretty scummy if none of them are (his) scum team. Luckily there could still be scum there, but still...

I don't think it is scummy, faust beat me to it posting that.

We definitely need to narrow our focus in. We need to get 10 people to vote on a lynch. That is hard. But we need to do it.

Another point, I find that scum will usually include a teammate on a "people to lynch" post, then just not really go after that person

[2.71828.....]

And actually, speaking of moving off Robz,

Vote: Robz

1) posting about his meta off not being useful D1 and
2) his lazy vote on me that solidified my wagon as an actually viable lynch

Both things I can see scum!Robz doing. I know I said Robz was town for point 1 earlier, but I changed my mind

[MiX]

And actually, speaking of moving off Robz,

Vote: Robz

1) posting about his meta off not being useful D1 and
2) his lazy vote on me that solidified my wagon as an actually viable lynch

Both things I can see scum!Robz doing. I know I said Robz was town for point 1 earlier, but I changed my mind

I don't know, I think he's just null...this just feels like OMGUS without saying it.

Probably a better lynch than mcmc, however. I'll add him to my list.

[2.71828.....]

And actually, speaking of moving off Robz,

Vote: Robz

1) posting about his meta off not being useful D1 and
2) his lazy vote on me that solidified my wagon as an actually viable lynch

Both things I can see scum!Robz doing. I know I said Robz was town for point 1 earlier, but I changed my mind

I don't know, I think he's just null...this just feels like OMGUS without saying it.

Probably a better lynch than mcmc, however. I'll add him to my list.

Actually, I was thinking through who wasn't on your list and could be lynched and then thought how cool it would be to lynch them

[Uncleeurope]

I am getting a weird feeling that Robz and MiX are partners.

His post regarding Faust’s vote bucket he read (to me) as if he was saying Robz was a buddy with Faust or something, then didn’t put him on his vote list, which is weird...

PPE: And now he just said he is reading Robz as null when he previously was  scumreading mcmc for pretty much the same crime?

I dunno, just a thought that is making my head itch.

[2.71828.....]

I am getting a weird feeling that Robz and MiX are partners.

Way too early to call partners in my opinion. But you can totally test your theory and vote Robz

[faust]

I would rather lynch Jimmmm or LaLight than Robz.

[Uncleeurope]

I am getting a weird feeling that Robz and MiX are partners.

Way too early to call partners in my opinion. But you can totally test your theory and vote Robz

Oh, I know it’s too early, certainly, I just enjoy throwing my thoughts at people. If it’s gpong through my head it may as well be running through yours.

Vote: Robz

PPE

Ooh, interested in knowing why?

[Uncleeurope]

I am interested*

[2.71828.....]

I am getting a weird feeling that Robz and MiX are partners.

Way too early to call partners in my opinion. But you can totally test your theory and vote Robz

Oh, I know it’s too early, certainly, I just enjoy throwing my thoughts at people. If it’s gpong through my head it may as well be running through yours.

I think this is extremely townie

[WestCoastDidds]

Your list of 8 people who could get lynched is interesting to me

Right?

There seem to be significant oversights.

[WestCoastDidds]

I would rather lynch Jimmmm or LaLight than Robz.

Why’s that?

[WestCoastDidds]

I would rather lynch Jimmmm or LaLight than Robz.

Why’s that?

I just reread LL and would move back to him, but I’m not sure there are 8 others who would. He has contributed WAY less than normal. 

I often find myself thinking that lynching Robz won’t make much difference if he’s not showing up. It’s not like we’ll miss him. And it seems Jimmm is in that boat as well.  So, is there where one folks can/will coalesce around?

[Jimmmmm]

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

What did I miss?

Are you the double voter MiX?

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Yeah, that was my immediate assumption; and when I looked for it it wasn't there.  Hence my need for an explanation.  And if WestCoast hadn't popped in with the question "are you double voter?" I sure as heck would have.

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Same here.

faust: Given all of the above, why did you (cherry?) pick my post? Could you not make the exact same argument of shraeye, WCD and Chicken?

The intent of my post was to support WCD in a situation that seemed a little sour. I agreed with her reaction to MiX and I disagreed with his reaction to her. I also agree that they seem likely to be both Town.

[MiX]

Reads list!

Jimmmmmmmmmm's somewhat scummy. just because all he did this game was vote shraeye and...that's it really. His asking for someone to gun for him is also interesting: I'm assuming that he acts better as scum if he's under pressure, otherwise he wouldn't say this right? But really the case for him lies on faust's reason (since there's not much else about Jimmmmmmm), and I don't think that's good enough. But I will move to him if it gets support.

LaLight...pretty much the only content here is his vote on e...that's it really, he doesn't attempt to justify it, just "gut read" and "probable to be scum lynch". I think LL would try much harder to interact with everyone, especially as scum. But if he doesn't have time, then I think town!LL would try to be more upbeat, more joky, more positive; and I don't see this.

mcmc does some setup talk, briefly votes Uncle...then votes E twice. Comes back, says that he can vote Jimmmmmm or Glooble. I've seen mcmc be really good as town so I don't really want them dead, just put them in the list in case someone mentioned him.

Glooble seems to be thinking the same way as me, anyone else notice that? That makes me want to give him a townread...but really, he's scummy, because I don't recall him being like this in any other game...right? Wasn't he different, more open, more flimsy...I can definitly go here today.

Didds...well...other than the very direct question, she's null, given that I don't know her scum meta so I can't really say what's NAI or not...oh, except the e vote, that was just weird. However, I stand by what I've said a long time ago, that she's scum because of her slip, pretty simple, right?

Space has done a whole lot of nothing this game, are they not very active? I don't remember any post saying that. Their vote is currently on a NAI point and I don't think they've tried to move it: if you look at space's posts, half of them are just fluff...this is a perfect way to be active and not contribute anything (or very little) to the game.

The other 3'll have to be done tomorrow, but I don't really want neither of them to die.

Vote: Space, because, really, reread them, what have they done? Nothing. Yet they're not lurking, right?


TL;DR:

Null+ - mcmc, shraeye, e, Robz

Scummy - Jimmmmmm, Glooble, Didds

Scum - LaLight, Space

[Jimmmmm]

But really the case for him lies on faust's reason

As per my above post, would you say the same about the others who responded similarly?

[WestCoastDidds]

But really the case for him lies on faust's reason

As per my above post, would you say the same about the others who responded similarly?

Everyone who found MiX confusing (shraeye, me, you, Space, and CWL) are all on his lynch list now (well, except CWL). Perhaps he doesn’t enjoy scrutiny. Or perhaps what I/we thought was confusing was actually scummy.

[Uncleeurope]

Nah, he’s just confusing in general. Feel free to read his last game for examples of him doing that as town (and getting lynched for it)

He could be confusing and scummy, though, but confusing is just classic MiX.

[WestCoastDidds]

Ah, that’s helpful Eddie. Thanks

[raerae]

Ouch, so I don't even make the null list? I find this list extraordinarily suspect considering you didn't get everybody. Seems like you had an agenda going into this and it wasn't just to express reads.

[Glooble]

I'm not like I have been in other games. I am trying to learn from earlier games and be more helpful.

[raerae]

Ouch, so I don't even make the null list? I find this list extraordinarily suspect considering you didn't get everybody. Seems like you had an agenda going into this and it wasn't just to express reads.

Just actually counted and you missed half the players. Why include null reads if you don't include everybody in your read? I get saying "these are scummy, these are townie" but why include nulls at all if you aren't including everybody?

[SpaceAnemone]

For a few minutes, I was just gonna quit the game because seriously, my life has too much of that kind of treatment and I don’t need more “for fun”. But space and shraeye seem to think he’s out of line, too, so maybe my feelings aren’t coming out of nowhere.

Last night I was half way through making a post to say that if unapologetic aggressive behaviour is anything other than explicitly condemned by this community then I wanted to quit. Then I realised that I was just too frustrated to post, so I went to bed instead.

[SpaceAnemone]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

Just to offer you another perspective on this: it wasn't "a fight", it was MiX acting in a really rude way, and WCD stating entirely fairly that she wasn't willing to engage with that. The aggression was one-sided, and WCD's comments were statements of disengagement. I think she reacted exactly how I'd expect an adult woman who has her shit together to react when faced with an entitled young male.

However, I really don't think it's particularly alignment-indicative. If MiX's playstyle is to wind people up to see what they'll spill, he could be doing so as any alignment. It seems quite plausible that frustrated/annoyed town will say things that he can successfully twist to get a mislynch through.

I find him quite performative with it, which also makes me not read him as at all genuine. For instance, this is not what you post when you know you're worked up and should step away from the computer:

Sigh...okay, calm down, calm down, you can do this...

What you do is you go away and you don't post at all for a while. Similarly, his apology to WCD read as performance rather than sincere understanding to me. Anyway, I find him un-genuine, and as D1 scumminess goes, that ticks the boxes for me.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space has done a whole lot of nothing this game, are they not very active? I don't remember any post saying that. Their vote is currently on a NAI point and I don't think they've tried to move it: if you look at space's posts, half of them are just fluff...this is a perfect way to be active and not contribute anything (or very little) to the game.

I certainly don't find D1 easy. I like wagon analysis, and hunting for scum in interactions. I usually automate a vote counter (though I still haven't taken the time to set it up for this player-list, because there are quite a lot of new names and aliases), make myself a voting-state-by-voting-state view of the game, and then use that to narrow down likely scums, with mixed success.

My activity pattern is that I'm at work up till around 18.30/19.00 UK time, and I'll often read from there while waiting for numbers to crunch or something, but I try to limit my posting to a couple of posts at lunchtime or something because I don't want to set a bad example in my office. I'm often completely offline couple of hours after work, and usually the bulk of my posting for the day is 11pm-1am-ish, though I really should get to sleep earlier than this for the sake of my mental health.

Also, as most people who've played with me before know, I host a boardgames night (that used to be hosted by Haddock, who introduced me to f.ds Mafia in the first place) on a Thursday, so I'm generally not here.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: MiX

The more I look at that truncated reads list, and think about how many of those folks were involved in his “two vote” comment earlier, the way he treated me, then his vote on space, the more it feels like it this was a deliberate ploy

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t think MiX is a great option today, Scum don’t typically want to be antagonizers early. He’s shifty and weird, but he is also scumhunting emphatically early, when there is no need to do that as scum.

[faust]

That is so adorable. FoS: LaLight, because having 2 votes is double the power!

What did I miss?

Are you the double voter MiX?

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Yeah, that was my immediate assumption; and when I looked for it it wasn't there.  Hence my need for an explanation.  And if WestCoast hadn't popped in with the question "are you double voter?" I sure as heck would have.

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Same here.

faust: Given all of the above, why did you (cherry?) pick my post? Could you not make the exact same argument of shraeye, WCD and Chicken?

The intent of my post was to support WCD in a situation that seemed a little sour. I agreed with her reaction to MiX and I disagreed with his reaction to her. I also agree that they seem likely to be both Town.

WCD and shraeye posted before clarification, so there was still confusion to be lifted. Chickenwarlord is new, so this is more fogivable for them. If you had wanted to support WCD, you could have siad so, but you didn't.

[faust]

I would rather lynch Jimmmm or LaLight than Robz.

Why’s that?

I find them actively scummy and Robz just a little annoying.

[faust]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

Just to offer you another perspective on this: it wasn't "a fight", it was MiX acting in a really rude way, and WCD stating entirely fairly that she wasn't willing to engage with that. The aggression was one-sided, and WCD's comments were statements of disengagement. I think she reacted exactly how I'd expect an adult woman who has her shit together to react when faced with an entitled young male.

There is, however, a definite hint of aggression in this post.

I find him quite performative with it, which also makes me not read him as at all genuine. For instance, this is not what you post when you know you're worked up and should step away from the computer:

Sigh...okay, calm down, calm down, you can do this...

What you do is you go away and you don't post at all for a while. Similarly, his apology to WCD read as performance rather than sincere understanding to me. Anyway, I find him un-genuine, and as D1 scumminess goes, that ticks the boxes for me.

I do not see what any of this has to do with MiX's alignment. All I see is you disapproving of how MiX responded to criticism. I don't think we should incorporate disagreements on a personal level into the game if we can avoid it.

[faust]

Ouch, so I don't even make the null list? I find this list extraordinarily suspect considering you didn't get everybody. Seems like you had an agenda going into this and it wasn't just to express reads.

What would the agenda be?

I don't think this is making much sense at all. This is a big game, seems natural to focus on the players that you actually have something to say about. And forgive me, but you just have not been very memorable so far.

[Uncleeurope]

Are LL and Jimmmm equal in your eyes or do you see Jimmmmmmmm as scummier, hence the vote?

Aka, could you just as easily be voting LL?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Waking up in the middle of the night 2 AM phone thought:

faust is actually right, Garak should target his guess for most likely NK and top scumread, and not crumb the NK guess.

If people are going to argue with the concept of having clearly had a top scumread at the end of the day I don't know what I'll do.

[MiX]

Quick post, just wanted to say that I agree with everything faust said, which includes why Jimmmmmmm's post is a little scummy, his comment on Space and...oh that's it. Looked like 3 things. Well not the "Robz is suspicious" part.

Ouch, so I don't even make the null list? I find this list extraordinarily suspect considering you didn't get everybody. Seems like you had an agenda going into this and it wasn't just to express reads.

What would the agenda be?

I don't think this is making much sense at all. This is a big game, seems natural to focus on the players that you actually have something to say about. And forgive me, but you just have not been very memorable so far.

I picked the people that I think will get lynched today (minus me), focusing on others is pointless if we want to get a lynch (close to, shraeye) done.

I also have a feeling I can read raerae well, but I want more info.

Vote: MiX

The more I look at that truncated reads list, and think about how many of those folks were involved in his “two vote” comment earlier, the way he treated me, then his vote on space, the more it feels like it this was a deliberate ploy

Coincidence: most of those were very active players + you, so of course they're valid lynch options.

PPE 1

[Swowl]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

In this game the odds of a planned interaction are kind of diluted given the possibility of skum teams so I am inclined to believe Town vs Town.

A) third parties don't get to decide when offense is allowed/is not allowed to be taken
B) it does not feel planned.  That is a terrible conclusion

MiX vs. WCD felt planned/planted, as posited by DatSwan. 

Absolutely not.  This idea needs to be buried immediately.

Excuse me, but if I may:

A) I did not attempt to state that offense should or should not be taken. All I said is that it seemed like nonsense, and I did not see the reason for offense to be taken. I even laid out a summarized amount of details on my reasoning.

B) Again mis-representing what I said - I said it was, in my opinion,  either Town vs Town or planner interaction. I made absolutely no conclusion whatsoever, other than the fact that I do not think that exactly one of the players is skum ---- this part is also directed at Ashes --- again I did not say that I thought it had to be planned. It could, imo, also be town vs town.

Shraeye - You are wrong. Not for your opinion, or disagreement with my assessment... but you are incorrect that the theory should be buried. It is Day 1 - we know nothing. Nothing should be buried.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I won't be here at deadline, or for like 8+ hours before it, but I'll have plenty of time for this game tomorrow and will put my vote one someone we're actually going to lynch.

[Uncleeurope]

I will also be unavailable during a large hunk of time before deadline, depends on how late I stay up. I wouldn’t put much faith in me 4 hours before deadline at least.

[Chickenwarlord]

Well that's going to a be a bit of catching up. Y'all have been busy.

[Chickenwarlord]

MiX vs. WCD felt planned/planted, as posited by DatSwan. 

I don't see how anyone could read the initial back and forth and walk away with that from it.  Having to evaluate everything Ashersky says through the lens of someone who would jump on this conclusion bandwagon is going to be difficult.

[faust]

Are LL and Jimmmm equal in your eyes or do you see Jimmmmmmmm as scummier, hence the vote?

Aka, could you just as easily be voting LL?

I could be voting LaLight, but Jimmmmm has more votes on him currently.

[faust]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

In this game the odds of a planned interaction are kind of diluted given the possibility of skum teams so I am inclined to believe Town vs Town.

A) third parties don't get to decide when offense is allowed/is not allowed to be taken
B) it does not feel planned.  That is a terrible conclusion

MiX vs. WCD felt planned/planted, as posited by DatSwan. 

Absolutely not.  This idea needs to be buried immediately.

Excuse me, but if I may:

A) I did not attempt to state that offense should or should not be taken.

Then you clearly need to work on your phrasing.

[Chickenwarlord]

Chicken, my boy! How much have you read past games? Did you do that at all? Do you know anyone's meta? Maybe at least Gloobles? Also, how active have you been these past days? Will you be here at deadline?

I haven't really done very much reading of past games. I think just a bit of the Ghibli Mafia thread. I do have a modest understanding of Glooble's meta.

I should be here to move at the deadline should my stance change.

I don’t think MiX is a great option today, Scum don’t typically want to be antagonizers early. He’s shifty and weird, but he is also scumhunting emphatically early, when there is no need to do that as scum.

Agreed. MiX is definitely mixing things up and maybe being a bit too eager. I'm not willing to say that I have a town read there, but certainly wouldn't want MiX as a day 0 lynch target.

faust is actually right, Garak should target his guess for most likely NK and top scumread, and not crumb the NK guess.

If Garak does plan to use his power tonight, this is probably the best way to do it.

[LaLight]

I find it really hard to participate and I don't want to be lynched. Most of pressing matters were discussed and I don't feel like I can add anything to them, all I have is reading the tone of certain players, that said, I will make a reads list. Not that it would make me less scummy, but well

[Swowl]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

Just to offer you another perspective on this: it wasn't "a fight", it was MiX acting in a really rude way, and WCD stating entirely fairly that she wasn't willing to engage with that. The aggression was one-sided, and WCD's comments were statements of disengagement. I think she reacted exactly how I'd expect an adult woman who has her shit together to react when faced with an entitled young male.

However, I really don't think it's particularly alignment-indicative. If MiX's playstyle is to wind people up to see what they'll spill, he could be doing so as any alignment. It seems quite plausible that frustrated/annoyed town will say things that he can successfully twist to get a mislynch through.

I find him quite performative with it, which also makes me not read him as at all genuine. For instance, this is not what you post when you know you're worked up and should step away from the computer:

Sigh...okay, calm down, calm down, you can do this...

What you do is you go away and you don't post at all for a while. Similarly, his apology to WCD read as performance rather than sincere understanding to me. Anyway, I find him un-genuine, and as D1 scumminess goes, that ticks the boxes for me.

I want to respond to this with the preface that if anything I say here comes off as disrespectful - it is 100% unintentional.

This is a game. Based on social interaction to determine a winning faction. It is publicly hosted, so I suppose there is nothing keeping children from it, but I for one (potentially wrong I accept) assume that all players I am talking to are adults.
Aggression should be an assumed part of this game. If we had arguments about one-sided aggression every time it happened on Mafia FDS, we would literally never talk about anything else. That is how we put players on their toes, force interactions that are un-wanted, skum hunt, etc.

Rudeness should not be acceptable, by any means. It is a game, for fun. However, we should not discourage players from interactions outside, even if forceful, as long as they are within the pledge terms. No one should feel like they cannot follow a skum read up based on irrelevant factors such as "entitled male" or "grown woman". Those are bias factors from outside the game state that should not be included. It would probably be better if you just referred to them as "they".  That sounds sarcastic, but I genuinely it not meant to be.

As equally much as you care about the "They vs He vs She" part of a game, I care about the integrity the game. I love all games, but they are only fun because they are games. The real world needs to be respected in games, but also we have to accept that we are playing a game... I get that that is super convoluted, but if you read it over once or twice I think it will make sense I hope.



---Whatever, this is a concept that has come up A LOT in games on this forum since I have started (which has not been that hell of a long time). I am bias, because I am aware that because of the way I post it can come off as rude and I know I do not intend it to be. But really everyone should just dial it back on this stuff. And most importantly, for the sake of the game, at least consider it NAI in regards to these games.


This is literally the last thing I will discuss on this topic during this game. Please file all complaints to your local post office trash bin. If you actually have something you would like to discuss that would make the community better - PM me when the game is over. I will not respond to anything regarding this for the rest of this game.

[LaLight]

1. Jimmmmm is not participating which I can see him do as both alignments. Mostly I would keep him alive, he's a scary power late in the game if town.
2. UmbrageOfSnow - was active and cool, got a lot of townreads from different people and kind of disappeared?
3. LaLight - me, struggling with going here.
4. DatSwan - Did he do anything?
5. mcmcsalot - Somewhat here, not really noticeable, but I liked that he voted for e, because I felt like me and mcmc got the same feeling
6. Glooble - can't read yet
7. WestCoastDidds - she's still awesome. We're yet to see scum!Didds, but for now I feel like it's good old town!her.
8. SpaceAnemone - Struggling as much as I am, I don't really want to lycnh them, see Jimmmmm
9. Shraeye - I get the different feeling from when we were masons. Could definitely vote there
10. MiX - Don't want to lynch cause I still feel guilt over the last game but at one point, sure. Also, yeah, aggression made me quit Mafia for some time once and also broke two games I was in. It isn't fun.
11. faust - let's see D2
12. ashersky - His activity level changed as we saw in Radch, I can't read him yet. For now feel townie
13. 2.71828..... - strong feeling of actilurking. I don't know, it's like I am reading his posts and then I can't remember what they were about...
14. Robz888 - always up for Robz lynch, you know
15. Awaclus - Is he in this game?
16. Uncleeurope - I am scared of him as of now. But rather would not lynch
17. raerae - don't remember anything from them here
18. chickenwarlord - meh?

[Swowl]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

In this game the odds of a planned interaction are kind of diluted given the possibility of skum teams so I am inclined to believe Town vs Town.

A) third parties don't get to decide when offense is allowed/is not allowed to be taken
B) it does not feel planned.  That is a terrible conclusion

MiX vs. WCD felt planned/planted, as posited by DatSwan. 

Absolutely not.  This idea needs to be buried immediately.

Excuse me, but if I may:

A) I did not attempt to state that offense should or should not be taken.

Then you clearly need to work on your phrasing.

I changed my mind after the original post. It is not my position to decide where offense should or should not be taken. I simply stand on my own opinion at this point that I do not think that offense was meant to be taken at all in this matter.

[LaLight]

All of that is nonsense to me. This fight is about nothing. Semantics and clarifications at best. Both of the players involved have played games before, there is no reason for offense to be taken here. MiX said something, WCD called them on it, MiX responded... and then the rest of it. Both players are operating way outside of the Town Norms I know them as. So my opinion is it is either Town vs Town or a planned interaction.

Just to offer you another perspective on this: it wasn't "a fight", it was MiX acting in a really rude way, and WCD stating entirely fairly that she wasn't willing to engage with that. The aggression was one-sided, and WCD's comments were statements of disengagement. I think she reacted exactly how I'd expect an adult woman who has her shit together to react when faced with an entitled young male.

However, I really don't think it's particularly alignment-indicative. If MiX's playstyle is to wind people up to see what they'll spill, he could be doing so as any alignment. It seems quite plausible that frustrated/annoyed town will say things that he can successfully twist to get a mislynch through.

I find him quite performative with it, which also makes me not read him as at all genuine. For instance, this is not what you post when you know you're worked up and should step away from the computer:

Sigh...okay, calm down, calm down, you can do this...

What you do is you go away and you don't post at all for a while. Similarly, his apology to WCD read as performance rather than sincere understanding to me. Anyway, I find him un-genuine, and as D1 scumminess goes, that ticks the boxes for me.

I want to respond to this with the preface that if anything I say here comes off as disrespectful - it is 100% unintentional.

This is a game. Based on social interaction to determine a winning faction. It is publicly hosted, so I suppose there is nothing keeping children from it, but I for one (potentially wrong I accept) assume that all players I am talking to are adults.
Aggression should be an assumed part of this game. If we had arguments about one-sided aggression every time it happened on Mafia FDS, we would literally never talk about anything else. That is how we put players on their toes, force interactions that are un-wanted, skum hunt, etc.

Rudeness should not be acceptable, by any means. It is a game, for fun. However, we should not discourage players from interactions outside, even if forceful, as long as they are within the pledge terms. No one should feel like they cannot follow a skum read up based on irrelevant factors such as "entitled male" or "grown woman". Those are bias factors from outside the game state that should not be included. It would probably be better if you just referred to them as "they".  That sounds sarcastic, but I genuinely it not meant to be.

As equally much as you care about the "They vs He vs She" part of a game, I care about the integrity the game. I love all games, but they are only fun because they are games. The real world needs to be respected in games, but also we have to accept that we are playing a game... I get that that is super convoluted, but if you read it over once or twice I think it will make sense I hope.



---Whatever, this is a concept that has come up A LOT in games on this forum since I have started (which has not been that hell of a long time). I am bias, because I am aware that because of the way I post it can come off as rude and I know I do not intend it to be. But really everyone should just dial it back on this stuff. And most importantly, for the sake of the game, at least consider it NAI in regards to these games.


This is literally the last thing I will discuss on this topic during this game. Please file all complaints to your local post office trash bin. If you actually have something you would like to discuss that would make the community better - PM me when the game is over. I will not respond to anything regarding this for the rest of this game.

I would very much like to respond to this.

As a person who underwent a lot of... let's say aggression in my life, I personally feel 100 times worse when anyone is even irritated with me. If you will have time, skim over some games I played whren I just came here, I was constantly apologizing to people for scumreading them. The reason I am telling this is that you do not know the background of a person and what can really move them or make them feel uncomfortable. I know Mafia can be rude, I played couple of games on other sites where people openly insult each other and wish others the worst things, but the reason I am staying here on fds is that we don't do such things. There is always something that most of people understand not to do, like insults, also there are things that we need to be opened on — like gender issues. But for me personally — and I believe for some others — winning the game is not superior to keeping it friendly. We are a relatively small closed community, we all know each other for quite a long time and doing, say, intentional gender mistakes in one game to determine if Space is scum by basically insulting them is not going to work. Never.

[LaLight]

not to fall into meta conversation, we can continue after the game. As for the game, let's please stay calm and friendly. I know you all are great people.

[Awaclus]

Unfortunately we have to have this discussion now because it affects how we read the game and otherwise scum can use it to manipulate the flow of the game to their advantage.

MiX appears to be a bit of an eccentric but I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all. I'm not really a huge fan of treating people differently on the basis of age or gender so Didds being an adult woman is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

[faust]

I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all.

It does not matter.

[Awaclus]

I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all.

It does not matter.

It matters.

[Swowl]

I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all.

It does not matter.

[Swowl]

I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all.

It does not matter.

double click. I did not mean to quote this.

[Uncleeurope]

I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all.

It does not matter.

Intent does matter, though.

I really wish we could abandon this whole thing, it is needlessly exploding a small situatuation into something much larger than what should be discussed here.

[Swowl]

I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all.

It does not matter.

Intent does matter, though.

I really wish we could abandon this whole thing, it is needlessly exploding a small situatuation into something much larger than what should be discussed here.

this. to make it clear... as I attempted to. I do NOT want there to be discussion about this IN THIS GAME. Discussion - sure. Right now, we should focus on the game.
We are a pretty tight nit group. I assume no one is intentionally attempting to offend anyone else.
#thoughtthatcounts
#hugitout

[MiX]

I hereby declare all discussion about civilty, agression, and that one misgendeting thing to be anti-town: all it does is get people riled up, cluttering the thread with emotions, which is bad this close to deadline. If yoy want to learn my meta, I'll tell you what I told Didds: I act like this when I find a scumslip, CLEARLY this isn't acceptable here, so I'll drop it.

END OF DISCUSSION

Thank you for your understanding.

MiX is definitely mixing things up

I live for this. Also, do you think Glooble's following his townmeta?

[Chickenwarlord]

This isn't literary theory- we're not dealing with a death of the author situation. We are dealing with living breathing beings on both ends and no one can invalidate a gut reaction.
It doesn't matter how it was intended - an initial visceral reaction to impolite aggression can't be discounted because the other side didn't seek to elicit that specific response. We ALL have to deal with the fallout when someone's personal boundaries are breached and make changes so there isn't a another.

[faust]

I hereby declare all discussion about civilty, agression, and that one misgendeting thing to be anti-town: all it does is get people riled up, cluttering the thread with emotions, which is bad this close to deadline. If yoy want to learn my meta, I'll tell you what I told Didds: I act like this when I find a scumslip, CLEARLY this isn't acceptable here, so I'll drop it.

END OF DISCUSSION

Thank you for your understanding.

You know I was trying to be charitable but clearly Space's assessment of you is spot on.

[Swowl]

I hereby declare all discussion about civilty, agression, and that one misgendeting thing to be anti-town: all it does is get people riled up, cluttering the thread with emotions, which is bad this close to deadline. If yoy want to learn my meta, I'll tell you what I told Didds: I act like this when I find a scumslip, CLEARLY this isn't acceptable here, so I'll drop it.

END OF DISCUSSION

Thank you for your understanding.

MiX is definitely mixing things up

I live for this. Also, do you think Glooble's following his townmeta?

Glooble is town imo.... I am basing that on exactly one game, but I suspected him as skum for like all of that game and then he was town and he is hitting all those points.

[faust]

I don't think anything he said sounds like it was supposed to be taken as a personal insult, like, at all.

It does not matter.

Intent does matter, though.

I really wish we could abandon this whole thing, it is needlessly exploding a small situatuation into something much larger than what should be discussed here.

*sigh*

Yes this is hyperbole. I thought you of all people would understand. But Awaclus's post seems to imply that if insult was not intended, then everything is peachy. It's not.

[Awaclus]

I hereby declare all discussion about civilty, agression, and that one misgendeting thing to be anti-town: all it does is get people riled up, cluttering the thread with emotions, which is bad this close to deadline.

It's not anti-town to get people riled up.

Yes this is hyperbole. I thought you of all people would understand. But Awaclus's post seems to imply that if insult was not intended, then everything is peachy. It's not.

I'm not trying to find out whether or not everything is peachy, I'm trying to find out whether or not any of the people involved are scum.

[Swowl]

I hereby declare all discussion about civilty, agression, and that one misgendeting thing to be anti-town: all it does is get people riled up, cluttering the thread with emotions, which is bad this close to deadline. If yoy want to learn my meta, I'll tell you what I told Didds: I act like this when I find a scumslip, CLEARLY this isn't acceptable here, so I'll drop it.

END OF DISCUSSION

Thank you for your understanding.

You know I was trying to be charitable but clearly Space's assessment of you is spot on.

Move on man. not being bossy, just what are we gaining from it at this point? At least for now. Or at the minimum at least until we are not 30 hours to DL. If you insist just wait for tomorrow.
 I am so sorry now I even posted the damn thing, I meant to be more of a #Go_FDS_FAM thing... not a #TheirCanOnlyBeOneHighlander_FDS thing...

[Swowl]

I hate it that the two of you have your stuff turned to "offline". Many nights of sitting around wondering if I am gonna be talking to myself or if I get to talk to another person.

[Chickenwarlord]

I am so sorry now I even posted the damn thing, I meant to be more of a #Go_FDS_FAM thing... not a #TheirCanOnlyBeOneHighlander_FDS thing...

Could you explain to me what those acronyms are for? I'm not readily familiar with all the shorthand.

[Swowl]

I am so sorry now I even posted the damn thing, I meant to be more of a #Go_FDS_FAM thing... not a #TheirCanOnlyBeOneHighlander_FDS thing...

Could you explain to me what those acronyms are for? I'm not readily familiar with all the shorthand.

Wow this is gonna get a lot longer lol:

#Go_FDS_FAM = Go ForumDomionStrategy Family!
#TheirCanOnlyBeOneHighlander_FDS = ... I don;t know how to insert images... but imagine a 7 foot Norwegian guy holding a broadsword traveling through time that can't die... kind of.


Imagine Arnold Schwartnager... but like combined with the guy from Princess Bride.

[Swowl]

Also, as long as we have you here Chicken...

Who is your top two skum reads?

Who are the two people you would not lynch right now?

[Chickenwarlord]

Also, as long as we have you here Chicken...

Who is your top two skum reads?

Who are the two people you would not lynch right now?

I'd say Robbz is probably my #1 skumread at the moment.
A lot of other people are swarming at minor suspicion level, including yourself and Jimmmmm.

I'd hold off on lynching MiX and Faust.

[Chickenwarlord]

I'd hold off on lynching MiX and Faust.

And by hold off, I mean we should definitely wait to see what goes down in the night, not that they're at the bottom of my suspicion list.

[2.71828.....]

You should vote for Robz then. Or are you already?

[Glooble]

I’m not going to be on much today, FYI. I suspect our mod won’t either- we’re doing a day of fun for our birthday. I’ll pop in a bit late afternoon/ evening, and I’ll wake up a few hours before deadline to make sure I can move my vote somewhere useful.

[WestCoastDidds]

Happy birthday, Glooble and Joth!

Vote: Robz

[WestCoastDidds]

Friends,

I appreciate the insight about my response to MiX’s aggression. I do not think it was a fight. I was not trying to engage him or argue with him about this issue. I objected to being ordered around and chastised for asking a question. I thought his level of aggressiveness and the fact that he felt justified in barking orders based on a confusion that he created to be unnecessary and hostile.

Specifically, in his response to me about the agressiveness of his post he says (I’m responding in bold in the quote box):

I was too agressive, I know: this is how I act when someone scumslips.
This is not an apology. It is a justification.

What do you mean by "doubling down"? I was never on you...and yes, I do believe the rules have been established, no one disagreed with anything UoS posted in that list (IIRC faust only had a problem with the Garak part).
Doubling down, in this context, means digging in and redoubling your efforts. So I said to back off with the ordering me around (Do what I say! Now!) and you dug in and insisted that you are justified.

I get to order around my scumreads. Especially when they slip this hard...it's not at all scummy to do so, because "scummy in life" does not exist.
You have retracted this (although did not apologize for saying it), so I will not belabor the point, but this is the essence of my issue. If you think I (or anyone) is scum, then make the case. No one has to answer to you or obey your commands. Not doing so does not make them scummy. It gives them agency. “Scummy in life” means being aggressive and hostile, and it absolutely exists. This is a game, but it is also a community and all is not not forgiven just because we are playing.

I do not think intent matters in regard to offense, but that is irrelevant here because MiX absolutely intended to treat me as he did. He does not see anything wrong with it. His apology was all about him needing to calm down because HE was angry, and then later the “sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry” is reminiscent of the always-hollow “I’m sorry that you are offended” variety non-apology. Some of you see nothing wrong with it either, and that is up to you. I did, I said so, and then I took some time away from the situation. No one has found that irrational or untoward, so I’m cool with continuing. If others had piled on, I’d have left the game.

I appreciate that Space, Shraeye, Jimmm, and CWL weighted in on the confusion part. I appreciate faust and space continuing to comment on the communication in our community. I appreciate what DatSwan is trying to do in the f.dsFamily idea, although I disagree with his assessment of the situation. I disagree with Ashersky’s assessment, but that is not unique. I appreciate LL’s perspective and I think it’s important to remember that behavior that drives people away for our community is not optimal.

MiX has declared that the Discussion has Ended which is funny because if he had his way, there never would have been a discussion and it seeems like that I should get a say in that declaration since it functions to silence me. However, I agree that there doesn’t seem to be much more to say about it. I don’t think being hostile is a legit way “to mix things up” and I (perhaps naively) hope that respect is always more important than the game. I think it is freaking awesome that this community came up with its own civility code and holds its members to it.

So, that is where I am at and what I think. And now I have to go to work. Hi ho, hi ho...

[mcmcsalot]

So I agree with swan, on like everything, also he’s super towny with the way he’s gone about things.

As for mix I don’t think he’s scum, I don’t think we have enough of a built up meta to know that he is being un genuine (in fact we do have a meta of him being confusing and long winded and getting lynched as town for it).

Oookay, so I reread the mix/wcd scenario at here is what it looks like alignment wise and tonally from the outside.

Mix is town and got really excited because he thinks scum!wcd slipped by accidentally asking him to confirm or deny if he was a pr. This is a super weak argument that an overly excited newer payer comes up with. When you think about it town!wcd is way more likely to make this mistake then scum!wcd because town!wcd’s is confused about everyone’s role/alignment and wants to figure thinks out, scum!wcd wants to not cause a stir and not get lynched. So mix goes real aggressive over a really bad argument.

Wcd in response did get a bit heated which I haven’t seen her before which is the only thing potentially alignment indicative in the whole mess but it’s not outright scummy to be frustrated when someone is really aggressive in tone toward you so this is more something to file away and reflect on post game if it turns out wcd is scum. This is just a good measure for all players for example I’m liable to be strongly defensive as scum and not as town, robz is the opposite strongly defensive as town and cool as a cucumber under pressure as scum.


So all in all I think mix should drop his weak argument for wcd being scum and people should drop the idea that mix is scum because he is super loud and bull headedly pushing a bad case.

I’m off to make some good cases now.

[WestCoastDidds]

Mcmc..... why do some people call you “mom salon”??

[shraeye]

I hate it that the two of you have your stuff turned to "offline". Many nights of sitting around wondering if I am gonna be talking to myself or if I get to talk to another person.

This is me too.  I'm never trying to check to see "oooh, guuurrrrl, BBB is online abd not posting how scummy!!". But I do want to know if sitting around waiting for a convo is worthwhile or not.

[Awaclus]

Mcmc..... why do some people call you “mom salon”??

Mcmcsalot got autocorrected.

[raerae]

Ouch, so I don't even make the null list? I find this list extraordinarily suspect considering you didn't get everybody. Seems like you had an agenda going into this and it wasn't just to express reads.

What would the agenda be?

I don't think this is making much sense at all. This is a big game, seems natural to focus on the players that you actually have something to say about. And forgive me, but you just have not been very memorable so far.

It's the null that's getting to me. I get it's a big game, it's overwhelming, reads on only people you have reads on makes sense but why even include a null bucket then?

[faust]

I hate it that the two of you have your stuff turned to "offline". Many nights of sitting around wondering if I am gonna be talking to myself or if I get to talk to another person.

This is me too.  I'm never trying to check to see "oooh, guuurrrrl, BBB is online abd not posting how scummy!!". But I do want to know if sitting around waiting for a convo is worthwhile or not.

I don't think me showing my online status would be of much use to you though as it would just mean that I have an f.ds tab on in my browser while I'm off doing other stuff. That happens a lot.

[shraeye]

That makes sense too, faust.  I've been accused of being online before but it usually means that I have fds tabs open on my computer, which I literally do all the time.  I was talking more "Faust is currently posting" messages.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.6

*chirp* "O'Brien to Rom. I could use your help up here in Ops. The internal sensors are on the fritz again"

"You bet Chief! I'll be rrright there!"

Closing up the panel he's working on in the docking ring, Rom waddles to the turbolift and indicates on the control panel he's heading to Ops.

The door slides closed. A minute later it slides open again. General Martok and Kai Winn get in.

The Ferengi, the Klingon, and the Bajoran are awkwardly cramped in the tiny elevator.

"Uhhh... Nice weather we're having," says Rom.

Martok and Winn regard him with dismay.

"What are you talking about, Ferengi?" Martok growls. "There's no weather on a space station."

"Uhhh... Good point. How's the weather down on Bajor, your Holiness. I mean, your Worshipfulness. I mean, Miss Kai?"

"The Prophets have blessed us with ample rains, my child," the Kai says through pursed lips.

"TThhat's nice," says Rom. "It rains all the time where I'm from. Iiii kind of miss it, actually."

The door finally opens, ending the awkward conversation. But Martok gets the last word, as he's prone to do.

"There may not be weather on this station, but I still sense a storm brewing," he says grimly.


faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (4): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus
shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds
Glooble (1): shraeye
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX

No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players. Day 1 ends at 8 a.m. forum time on Saturday, March 2. That's in just under 23 hours!

This will likely be your last vote count before the last vote count, as I'll be out and about most of the day on not able to check in. I will try to check in at least often enough to lock the thread in case of a hammer.

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc..... why do some people call you “mom salon”??

Like awaclus said Ashersky got autocorrected once when typing my name and it came out as
Mom salon. It stuck because it was funny and cute like me!

[mcmcsalot]

Ouch, so I don't even make the null list? I find this list extraordinarily suspect considering you didn't get everybody. Seems like you had an agenda going into this and it wasn't just to express reads.

What would the agenda be?

I don't think this is making much sense at all. This is a big game, seems natural to focus on the players that you actually have something to say about. And forgive me, but you just have not been very memorable so far.

It's the null that's getting to me. I get it's a big game, it's overwhelming, reads on only people you have reads on makes sense but why even include a null bucket then?

I agree this is weird but still don’t want to lynch mix. Raerae off my list for today though

[WestCoastDidds]

It stuck because it was funny and cute like me!

And this is why you are awesome!

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc Post Count 1.0


75 faust: 79-4
52 MiX: 54-2
51 Glooble: 53-2
44 UmbrageOfSnow: 45-1
44 Shraeye: 47-3
40 2.71828.....: 42-2
32 WestCoastDidds: 34-2
26 raerae: 30-4
25 mcmcsalot: 28-3
25 DatSwan: 26-1
25 Uncleeurope: 27-2
18 SpaceAnemone: 20-2
15 LaLight: 16-1
14 chickenwarlord: 15-1
14 ashersky: 16-2
14 Awaclus: 15-1
12 Jimmmmm: 15-3
10 Robz888: 11-1

That took way to long on mobile

[shraeye]

Right; lets talk reads. 

Here's who seems like they're engaging well, acting towny to me; drawing questions/discussions about eachother:
MiX,
DatSwan,
faust,
WestCoastDidds

Here's who I've taken off my table for various good/bad/irrelevant reasons:
UncleEurope,
chicken,
Robz

Here's my thoughts on e:
I feel like they were getting suspicion early on for being chipper and jokey.  It seems like they were getting slight impressions, magnifying them 1000% either A) because it's funny or B) because that makes people go "What?!" and get this big game rolling.  I put big townpoints on them for that.  My recollection is that once people started saying e was suspicious, then 2.71 started making more muted opinions.  I don't like that; reacting when others perceive you as scummy isn't in general good.  Like, if large cases were happening, and 2.71's defending them....coool.  But if people are like "feels weird" and then 2.71 changes the vibes they're putting out....don't love that.  So the townpoints will probably carry 2.71 off my list tonight.  But 2.71 is not my biggest townread no more.

Here's my gut feeling on our lurker-ish folk:
Jimmmm=good,
Robz = good (see above),
Awaclus = bad,
LaLight = bad

Here's a set of null folk:
SpaceAnenome (who's name I can't say out loud),
raerae (surprising null read, usually I sort that one out pretty quick; I blame my utter failure last game for breaking my radar)

Here's some people who's content I've disagreed with, and I'm still trying to decide if that makes me at all suspicious of them. heart says "Yes!", brain says "that's absurd", heart asks "why?", brain says "what they feel is what they feel. they could be scum or not", heart says "you said 'could be scum' so I win and you can't take it back":
Umbrage (probably not, it's his setup analysis that I'm against; also his faust vote/game/reasoning was awful)
mcmcs (yeah sorta, he feels like the leader of the bad votes on e)

Now to the bottom end of the list:
Glooble:
There's Glooble/ash Ferengi confusion that made me suspicious
Still feels like he's saying an awful lot and pushing an awful little.  That disparity is scummier than either thing by itself.  MiX is saying/pushing a lot.  Robz is saying/pushing nothing.  Cool, consistency.
He was vocally saying that gut-based reads aren't good
THIS piece, always interests me; it felt like suspicion was up and on him, but I vote, Uncle votes, and then crickets...that always raises my eyebrows off my face.  On reread, I was again thinking that I knee-jerked myself into a scumread, but it just magnifies my suspicions so much when people get cold feet and don't vote for someone they suspect.  So, Glooble's staying in my would-lynch list.

Ashersky:
Ash gets suspicion for "I don't think anybody is townreading him, I recall people saying he's scummy, but why is nobody voting for him???"
That Ferengi plan was suspect man;  ashersky prides himself on thinking through setups deeply, finding great strategies that will break things down and help town.  So he put forth something which even dumb ol' shraeye could see didn't make sense.  Usually he's thinking two levels ahead of me, so it is suspicious at all heck when he's thinking even one step behind me.  Definitely felt like he was trying to "match" his town-plan meta and put out something he really hadn't thought through at all.


So
vote: ashersky
for now.

[shraeye]

PS: I'm mad at everybody, because literally the only vote on the bottom half of my list is ashersky voting for Awaclus....seriously?!?  Are you all one massive scumteam??

[WestCoastDidds]

mcmc, Thank you!

what does the number-dash-number mean?

[raerae]

Okay, I've got a grand total of one townread (Uncle, because he laughed at a joke I made, he never laughed at any of the amazing jokes I made last game even though he was given ample opportunity, this is good enough for me) and no strong scumreads.  I am suspicious of e, MiX, Glooble for being on #teamnotshraeye, still seems like a weird stance to take for virtually no reason.  Basically I'm saying my vote's for sale, if there's a reasonable case out there I'll bite on it.

[faust]

Okay, I've got a grand total of one townread (Uncle, because he laughed at a joke I made, he never laughed at any of the amazing jokes I made last game even though he was given ample opportunity, this is good enough for me) and no strong scumreads.  I am suspicious of e, MiX, Glooble for being on #teamnotshraeye, still seems like a weird stance to take for virtually no reason.  Basically I'm saying my vote's for sale, if there's a reasonable case out there I'll bite on it.

If you vote Jimmmmm then I promise I won't hammer you tomorrow!

[Robz888]

I would be okay with lynching Jimmm, but don't want to leave the 2.7 wagon, since it's more of a thing.

[shraeye]

But it's a lame thing.  Are you on it because it's a thing? Or because you think it's the right thing?

[mcmcsalot]

Haven’t read since my last post.



ALL TOO EARLY VOLTAIRE STYLE POE

Not Lynching
faust: post count and its faust. (duh)
MiX: post count and hes playing far to rambunctious for D1 scum after being lynch for being too talkative as town. (a new player who is rivaling faust in posts thank you so much)
WestCoastDidds: scum will kill her eventually when shes confirmed town. (trust me it happens)
DatSwan: really agree with what hes been putting out and a really strong player. (can we be friends this game)
ashersky: it's not time (you just wait)
Uncleeurope: made a partner call D1 (after my own heart)
Awaclus: I hate his play-style so much more as scum than town so y'all gotta deal with it (love you bud)
UmbrageOfSnow: you've been helpful
SpaceAnemone: will be super usefull later (also annoyingly hard to lynch)
LaLight: I have stopped being able to read you so so much.

Would Lynch
2.71828.....: So its that right away the shraeye IC and we should vote faust stuff is really unlike him. ALso don't like D1 passes for everyone he hasn't played with its an easy non alignment indicative way to narrow down players. Says he created a scum read on faust for fun not for reactions, one is town and one is silly. First towny thing he does is say wcd/mix is townvtown, thats not a fun post to make as scum. Going for robz is also very NAI since its always easy as scum and defendable as town.(thanks for that meta robz)
raerae: upon reread actually kinda scummy. Very "its okay everyone" style posts. The only antagonism she puts out is toward shraeye which is very safe since its easily covered by their relationship. I changed my mind shes back on the list.
Jimmmmm/Robz888: Y'all cant keep doing this every game. Care about your teams game and not just your own. Or maybe from now on you guys should pick one person and pretend you are playing a game with two peopel for day one then at least you will say something to someone...
Glooble: need to reread but I think I disagree with stuff you've said
Shraeye: the whole no lynch thing is super smart scum play, its not a terrible thing cuz statistics an all that jazz.
chickenwarlord: Do you fight for the chickens or against them, this is important.

[raerae]

Okay, I've got a grand total of one townread (Uncle, because he laughed at a joke I made, he never laughed at any of the amazing jokes I made last game even though he was given ample opportunity, this is good enough for me) and no strong scumreads.  I am suspicious of e, MiX, Glooble for being on #teamnotshraeye, still seems like a weird stance to take for virtually no reason.  Basically I'm saying my vote's for sale, if there's a reasonable case out there I'll bite on it.

If you vote Jimmmmm then I promise I won't hammer you tomorrow!

Negotiations are open!  How about you don't even vote me tomorrow?

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc, Thank you!

what does the number-dash-number mean?

(In game posts) Playername: total posts-pregame posts= In game posts

So any future posts count you just need to get everyone’s total posts and can subtract my pre game posts. It wasn’t as relevant as I thought in this game, sometimes in games that wait awhile to start players can get big pre game post stats that inflate the in game posts

[raerae]

mcmc, how does scum benefit from not lynching today?  How can a No Lynch be both anti-town and anti-scum?

Also, I now have two townreads!  Add mcmc to the list, that flipflop on me was too violent to be anything but town.

[mcmcsalot]

I’m amending my post:

Shraeye is off my list for today. And I agree with his thoughts on E, he’s been much townie since he got some pressure by that is also how scum!E would have reacted.

[MiX]

But really the case for him lies on faust's reason

As per my above post, would you say the same about the others who responded similarly?

Eh, I sorta expected it from them, but not you. As faust said, you didn't have to do it...felt like a cheap way to add a post, but what do I know. I have a really good argument for why I don't care about the others: shraeye was really gentle on the way he asked, you already heard everything I have to say about Didds and chicken's a new player.

So all in all I think mix should drop his weak argument for wcd being scum and people should drop the idea that mix is scum because he is super loud and bull headedly pushing a bad case.

I like this whole post, which means I should listen to this...fine! I accept that town!didds would do the same. But not this way. But last time I tunneled like this I was preeetty wrong, so I'll listen to you.

It's the null that's getting to me. I get it's a big game, it's overwhelming, reads on only people you have reads on makes sense but why even include a null bucket then?

Hmm...

Yes, yes, the read list is coming, but I think it's only useful to consider people that I think will actually get lynched...in fact I'll state those now: Jimmmmm, e, Didds, Space, LL, shraeye, Glooble, mcmc; in no particular order.

And...

I picked the people that I think will get lynched today (minus me), focusing on others is pointless if we want to get a lynch (close to, shraeye) done.

I can add you here if you want, but all I have to say is...I think I'll find out what she is with more interaction.

Mcmc talked a lot, next post's probably about them.

[MiX]

I can add you here if you want, but all I have to say is...I think I'll find out what she is with more interaction.

Heh, I said "you" and "she" in the same sentence both refering to raerae.

[shraeye]

I would be okay with lynching Jimmm, but don't want to leave the 2.7 wagon, since it's more of a thing.

We could make ash a thing!! do it! do it!

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc, how does scum benefit from not lynching today?  How can a No Lynch be both anti-town and anti-scum?

Also, I now have two townreads!  Add mcmc to the list, that flipflop on me was too violent to be anything but town.

Oh you are confused on what I meant, I see how you got that.

Proposing a no-lynch as scum is a good thing to do because technically it’s not actually the worst play for town as shraeye pointed out. So it’s somethig a scum can talk about, it’s something that’s not actually going to happen, and it’s something that has a pro-town edge case. So scum!shraeye gets to discuss a non relevant thing that could be coming from town.

[shraeye]

ashersky: it's not time (you just wait)

2.71828.....: So its that right away the shraeye IC and we should vote faust stuff is really unlike him. ALso don't like D1 passes for everyone he hasn't played with its an easy non alignment indicative way to narrow down players. Says he created a scum read on faust for fun not for reactions, one is town and one is silly. First towny thing he does is say wcd/mix is townvtown, thats not a fun post to make as scum. Going for robz is also very NAI since its always easy as scum and defendable as town.(thanks for that meta robz)

It IS time!  let's do it!

Also, reread 2.71 from the perspective "he's being tongue in cheek and trying to jumpstart the game".  It's a perfect explanation.  It's time to get off that lame wagon and onto the super-awesome ash wagon that everybody's talking about!

[mcmcsalot]

I would be okay with lynching Jimmm, but don't want to leave the 2.7 wagon, since it's more of a thing.

Robz is your ring on the 2.7 wagon totally a sheeping of me or is there more?

Also why okay with jimm?

[mcmcsalot]

It IS time!  let's do it!

Also, reread 2.71 from the perspective "he's being tongue in cheek and trying to jumpstart the game".  It's a perfect explanation.  It's time to get off that lame wagon and onto the super-awesome ash wagon that everybody's talking about!

Convince me of the ash wagon with reasons, I totally understand the town!2.7 game I just
Also see a scum!2.7 game which is better than the null reads or only town perspectives I have on a lot of other players.

[raerae]

mcmc, how does scum benefit from not lynching today?  How can a No Lynch be both anti-town and anti-scum?

Also, I now have two townreads!  Add mcmc to the list, that flipflop on me was too violent to be anything but town.

Oh you are confused on what I meant, I see how you got that.

Proposing a no-lynch as scum is a good thing to do because technically it’s not actually the worst play for town as shraeye pointed out. So it’s somethig a scum can talk about, it’s something that’s not actually going to happen, and it’s something that has a pro-town edge case. So scum!shraeye gets to discuss a non relevant thing that could be coming from town.

People really need to stop giving shraeye any cred, one way or the other, for proposing a No Lynch.  It's something he believes to his core and something he proposes in nearly every game he plays.  It's like if I opened every game with saying "Animals are better than humans!"  It doesn't say anything about my alignment, it just is a belief I hold. 

[Awaclus]

It's like if I opened every game with saying "Animals are better than humans!"  It doesn't say anything about my alignment, it just is a belief I hold.

That's like saying Victory cards are better than Provinces.

[ashersky]

I’m caught up. I take back the plan comment, clearly not after all the continued discussion. If it had just disappeared poof style it would have seemed not genuine.

Shraeye is silly but not scummy, even though his vote on me is pointless and misguided. The ferengi thing wasn’t a plan so much as thought based on a misread.

I think raerae is a good day one lynch today — she’s ensured her only memorable interactions are with one (towny) player and hasn’t added any content otherwise.

vote: raerae anyone?

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc, how does scum benefit from not lynching today?  How can a No Lynch be both anti-town and anti-scum?

Also, I now have two townreads!  Add mcmc to the list, that flipflop on me was too violent to be anything but town.

Oh you are confused on what I meant, I see how you got that.

Proposing a no-lynch as scum is a good thing to do because technically it’s not actually the worst play for town as shraeye pointed out. So it’s somethig a scum can talk about, it’s something that’s not actually going to happen, and it’s something that has a pro-town edge case. So scum!shraeye gets to discuss a non relevant thing that could be coming from town.

People really need to stop giving shraeye any cred, one way or the other, for proposing a No Lynch.  It's something he believes to his core and something he proposes in nearly every game he plays.  It's like if I opened every game with saying "Animals are better than humans!"  It doesn't say anything about my alignment, it just is a belief I hold.

Just because it’s a meta doesn’t make it less scummy. Your statement has nothing to do with the game and wouldn’t get you many posts nor would people care.

Shraeye proposing a no-lynch is scummy because it lets him do something that isn’t outright alignment indicative. It’s sort of a catch-22 I get that but I’m of the opinion he should get scum points for it (because it technically doesn’t give him scum points but also isn’t helpful).

It’s similar to players that are overly reliant on setup analysis/night actions. I think space is a good example of someone who was reliant on that, then hey started getting scum read for being passive early on and then their meta changed slightly to be more pro-town.

I’m a big fan of forcing people to have less “scum safe” metas. Like I should not be allowed to tunnel as much as town, I do and it makes it really easy to safely tunnel as scum.

[mcmcsalot]

I’ll join ash vote: raerae

[raerae]

I’m caught up. I take back the plan comment, clearly not after all the continued discussion. If it had just disappeared poof style it would have seemed not genuine.

Shraeye is silly but not scummy, even though his vote on me is pointless and misguided. The ferengi thing wasn’t a plan so much as thought based on a misread.

I think raerae is a good day one lynch today — she’s ensured her only memorable interactions are with one (towny) player and hasn’t added any content otherwise.

vote: raerae anyone?

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

Vote: ash

[shraeye]

[raerae] ensured her only memorable interactions are with one (towny) player and hasn’t added any content otherwise.

Which towny player is that?

[faust]

Okay, I've got a grand total of one townread (Uncle, because he laughed at a joke I made, he never laughed at any of the amazing jokes I made last game even though he was given ample opportunity, this is good enough for me) and no strong scumreads.  I am suspicious of e, MiX, Glooble for being on #teamnotshraeye, still seems like a weird stance to take for virtually no reason.  Basically I'm saying my vote's for sale, if there's a reasonable case out there I'll bite on it.

If you vote Jimmmmm then I promise I won't hammer you tomorrow!

Negotiations are open!  How about you don't even vote me tomorrow?

Hmmm... alright, you've got a deal. But it is off if you change your vote afterwards.

[raerae]

raerae: upon reread actually kinda scummy. Very "its okay everyone" style posts. The only antagonism she puts out is toward shraeye which is very safe since its easily covered by their relationship. I changed my mind shes back on the list.

Can you give an example of this?  I don't remember passing out warm fuzzies this game.

[raerae]

Okay, I've got a grand total of one townread (Uncle, because he laughed at a joke I made, he never laughed at any of the amazing jokes I made last game even though he was given ample opportunity, this is good enough for me) and no strong scumreads.  I am suspicious of e, MiX, Glooble for being on #teamnotshraeye, still seems like a weird stance to take for virtually no reason.  Basically I'm saying my vote's for sale, if there's a reasonable case out there I'll bite on it.

If you vote Jimmmmm then I promise I won't hammer you tomorrow!

Negotiations are open!  How about you don't even vote me tomorrow?

Hmmm... alright, you've got a deal. But it is off if you change your vote afterwards.

Can you look at ash real quicklike before we shake on it?  Generally what shraeye said and specifically his reason and vote on me.

[mcmcsalot]

I’m caught up. I take back the plan comment, clearly not after all the continued discussion. If it had just disappeared poof style it would have seemed not genuine.

Shraeye is silly but not scummy, even though his vote on me is pointless and misguided. The ferengi thing wasn’t a plan so much as thought based on a misread.

I think raerae is a good day one lynch today — she’s ensured her only memorable interactions are with one (towny) player and hasn’t added any content otherwise.

vote: raerae anyone?

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

Vote: ash

He didn’t say you were an informative lynch he said you are a good one. I agree your lynch isn’t super informative

[raerae]

I’m caught up. I take back the plan comment, clearly not after all the continued discussion. If it had just disappeared poof style it would have seemed not genuine.

Shraeye is silly but not scummy, even though his vote on me is pointless and misguided. The ferengi thing wasn’t a plan so much as thought based on a misread.

I think raerae is a good day one lynch today — she’s ensured her only memorable interactions are with one (towny) player and hasn’t added any content otherwise.

vote: raerae anyone?

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

Vote: ash

He didn’t say you were an informative lynch he said you are a good one. I agree your lynch isn’t super informative

I don't get it.  The only good lynch is an informative lynch, otherwise you're just killing to kill, what's the point? 

[mcmcsalot]

raerae: upon reread actually kinda scummy. Very "its okay everyone" style posts. The only antagonism she puts out is toward shraeye which is very safe since its easily covered by their relationship. I changed my mind shes back on the list.

Can you give an example of this?  I don't remember passing out warm fuzzies this game.

Oo so hard on mobile, I promise I’ll get to this at some point I’ve got to do some work now. I think it was during the mix/wcd thing though scum would have wanted that to get bigger so it can’t have just been that.

[mcmcsalot]

A scum lynch is the best lynch regardless of how informative it is.

[MiX]

That vote count should be 1.6, right?

Okay, this narrows down the lynch pool to e, Jimmmm, ash, raerae, Robz and probably Glooble. Of these, really don't see the reasoning behind ash, he's clearly a different man, as he said in...RMM51 IIRC? All the usual "ash!plan or you're scum" posts don't work now. Which helps his scum games, but still...

I do see one for raerae, just because she's not doing much, and I remember her doing a LOT more in M121, am I wrong? I don't think I am...but this could very well be null, I don't know...

No one likes the Space wagon. I blame myself there, really, my interactions provided a shield around them. I'll accept this as a consequence of my mistakes...

Mcmc making a LOT of sense, he's so town, oh mcmc, you're my new idol, please teach me how to be so pro-town...after the game, of course.

Does scum!ash put himself in a 1v1 vs raerae like this? How about town!ash?

Vote: Jimmmmmm untill the above is answered, and really because I don't like the e votes.

Can everyone please start saying L-something at 7+ votes? No vote count will make the end of day hard to track.

[2.71828.....]

Ashersky will do anything, as town or scum, if they think it will help them win.

[2.71828.....]

And you can trust everything that ashersky posts theory-wise will benefit town whether Ash is town or scum

[2.71828.....]

Not a huge fan of lynching ashersky or raerae today though

[raerae]

raerae: upon reread actually kinda scummy. Very "its okay everyone" style posts. The only antagonism she puts out is toward shraeye which is very safe since its easily covered by their relationship. I changed my mind shes back on the list.

Can you give an example of this?  I don't remember passing out warm fuzzies this game.

Oo so hard on mobile, I promise I’ll get to this at some point I’ve got to do some work now. I think it was during the mix/wcd thing though scum would have wanted that to get bigger so it can’t have just been that.

Broski, I very specifically did NOT comment on that interaction.  I'm in Didds' corner but I couldn't add anything that wouldn't get me kicked off the forum to that so I shutdown and walked away.

[2.71828.....]

I would be okay with lynching Jimmm, but don't want to leave the 2.7 wagon, since it's more of a thing.

Also, this is a standard "I want to help town lynch"  post from scum!Robz, not convincing me to move my vote

[mcmcsalot]

raerae: upon reread actually kinda scummy. Very "its okay everyone" style posts. The only antagonism she puts out is toward shraeye which is very safe since its easily covered by their relationship. I changed my mind shes back on the list.

Can you give an example of this?  I don't remember passing out warm fuzzies this game.

Oo so hard on mobile, I promise I’ll get to this at some point I’ve got to do some work now. I think it was during the mix/wcd thing though scum would have wanted that to get bigger so it can’t have just been that.

Broski, I very specifically did NOT comment on that interaction.  I'm in Didds' corner but I couldn't add anything that wouldn't get me kicked off the forum to that so I shutdown and walked away.

Okay okay I’ll pull the quotes, would you get a shuffleit username so I can search your posts easier tanks

[jotheonah]

That vote count should be 1.6, right?

Idk what you’re talking about, it’s always said 1.6. 

[raerae]

raerae: upon reread actually kinda scummy. Very "its okay everyone" style posts. The only antagonism she puts out is toward shraeye which is very safe since its easily covered by their relationship. I changed my mind shes back on the list.

Can you give an example of this?  I don't remember passing out warm fuzzies this game.

Oo so hard on mobile, I promise I’ll get to this at some point I’ve got to do some work now. I think it was during the mix/wcd thing though scum would have wanted that to get bigger so it can’t have just been that.

Broski, I very specifically did NOT comment on that interaction.  I'm in Didds' corner but I couldn't add anything that wouldn't get me kicked off the forum to that so I shutdown and walked away.

Okay okay I’ll pull the quotes, would you get a shuffleit username so I can search your posts easier tanks

Fine, it makes me feel like a fraud though since I'm not actually on there. 

[shraeye]

Shraeye proposing a no-lynch is scummy because it lets him do something that isn’t outright alignment indicative. It’s sort of a catch-22 I get that but I’m of the opinion he should get scum points for it (because it technically doesn’t give him scum points but also isn’t helpful).

It’s similar to players that are overly reliant on setup analysis/night actions. I think space is a good example of someone who was reliant on that, then hey started getting scum read for being passive early on and then their meta changed slightly to be more pro-town.

I've got two issues with this. 
First, it feels like you're saying all my activity is because of this NAI issue I've brought up.  Go back, count my no-lynch posts; I dare you.
Second, are you prepared to give scumreads to everyone talking setup?  Enjoy that 40 person scumteam.

[mcmcsalot]

I’ve played like 10 games on iso, 10 games on goku, and zero on shuffleit. I’m here for the mafia, if it confuses people that’s on them and maybe they should heck out the forum games section



On to the warm fuzzies, you are correct none of them are warm fuzzies so “it’s okay everyone” wasn’t quite right. But your first 25 posts are all either very very subtle and small town reads other than your comments on shraeye, you are playing a very low impact game without actually being lurky, their are no individual posts in particular.

[shraeye]

raerae: upon reread actually kinda scummy. Very "its okay everyone" style posts. The only antagonism she puts out is toward shraeye which is very safe since its easily covered by their relationship. I changed my mind shes back on the list.

Can you give an example of this?  I don't remember passing out warm fuzzies this game.

Oo so hard on mobile, I promise I’ll get to this at some point I’ve got to do some work now. I think it was during the mix/wcd thing though scum would have wanted that to get bigger so it can’t have just been that.

I know shraeyerae is everybody's favorite thing, but you are definitely remembering me and attributing it to her.

[raerae]

I’ve played like 10 games on iso, 10 games on goku, and zero on shuffleit. I’m here for the mafia, if it confuses people that’s on them and maybe they should heck out the forum games section



On to the warm fuzzies, you are correct none of them are warm fuzzies so “it’s okay everyone” wasn’t quite right. But your first 25 posts are all either very very subtle and small town reads other than your comments on shraeye, you are playing a very low impact game without actually being lurky, their are no individual posts in particular.

Literally hadn't assigned townreads until today.  You can just admit you're wrong, nobody will blame you.

[shraeye]

Not a huge fan of lynching ashersky or raerae today though

But I want ash, no fair.  How about reconsider?

[shraeye]

Okay okay I’ll pull the quotes, would you get a shuffleit username so I can search your posts easier tanks

Use "posts: 72"

[mcmcsalot]

Shraeye proposing a no-lynch is scummy because it lets him do something that isn’t outright alignment indicative. It’s sort of a catch-22 I get that but I’m of the opinion he should get scum points for it (because it technically doesn’t give him scum points but also isn’t helpful).

It’s similar to players that are overly reliant on setup analysis/night actions. I think space is a good example of someone who was reliant on that, then hey started getting scum read for being passive early on and then their meta changed slightly to be more pro-town.

I've got two issues with this. 
First, it feels like you're saying all my activity is because of this NAI issue I've brought up.  Go back, count my no-lynch posts; I dare you.
Second, are you prepared to give scumreads to everyone talking setup?  Enjoy that 40 person scumteam.

Well this is awkard

Mcmc Post Count 1.0
[snip]
44 Shraeye: 47-3

I even said that I liked your recent posts, the only reason I brought up the no lynch thing a second time is because raerae asked for clarification. And yes I will assign small scum point to Everton who gives setup discussion that is unlikely to be relevant. It’s scummy because it’s safe and nai.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay okay I’ll pull the quotes, would you get a shuffleit username so I can search your posts easier tanks

Use "posts: 72"

Yea but I always forget that and so I have to find one of her posts and check how many posts it is and it’s a whole process. Don’t get me started on 2.718IRRATINALE1737... like pick a name

[WestCoastDidds]

Broski, I very specifically did NOT comment on that interaction.  I'm in Didds' corner but I couldn't add anything that wouldn't get me kicked off the forum to that so I shutdown and walked away.

Preach. Seeking not to get kicked off is a good standard.

I would vote for Asher, but not raerae. I am less enthusiastic about e than I was before.

[WestCoastDidds]

I know shraeyerae is everybody's favorite thing, but you are definitely remembering me and attributing it to her.

Ha! I have started calling you shra-I in my head to make it different than ray-ray

[2.71828.....]

Okay okay I’ll pull the quotes, would you get a shuffleit username so I can search your posts easier tanks

Use "posts: 72"

Yea but I always forget that and so I have to find one of her posts and check how many posts it is and it’s a whole process. Don’t get me started on 2.718IRRATINALE1737... like pick a name

just because I haven't gone and begged theory to change my username here to "irrationalE" - I was actually 3.1415..... originally on iso, then switched to 2.718.... because I thought e was cooler (then I created my f.ds account), then having a username with only numbers got annoying (there was an issue with some coding for gamelogs once upon a time and I figured I would make it easier and just avoid numbers), and I thought irrationalE was clever so I switched to that.

There, now you have the history of my username dating back to iso and how I did not imagine the username "irrationalE" until later in the process.

[mcmcsalot]

I’ve played like 10 games on iso, 10 games on goku, and zero on shuffleit. I’m here for the mafia, if it confuses people that’s on them and maybe they should heck out the forum games section



On to the warm fuzzies, you are correct none of them are warm fuzzies so “it’s okay everyone” wasn’t quite right. But your first 25 posts are all either very very subtle and small town reads other than your comments on shraeye, you are playing a very low impact game without actually being lurky, their are no individual posts in particular.

Literally hadn't assigned townreads until today.  You can just admit you're wrong, nobody will blame you.

Fine you get your quote wall!!! If I get fired it’s your fault....

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

You missed the fact that he unvoted Uncle, didn't you?

Now, serious talk: anyone who knows Robz's meta, does he analyze setups? Does he like to break setups? Is he usually good at theory talk in general?

So, uncle claimed...well that makes him unlynchable, so he might as well be the IC for this day, right?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

And why can't shraeye be our lunch today? He seems just as on the table as everybody else?

Not a town read but a very “why can’t he be our lynch” it’s really open ended and non commital

I subbed in for Robz in the last game, and kept rereading the game. Not that Robz said a lot, but it gets in your head.

Gotcha!  For what it's worth, I have an inappropriate amount of trust for you because I look at your name and think, "Mods can't lie!"

Subtle statement of trust and general nothing post.

And no lynch D1 is basically the most absolute worst thing town could ever do D1

Time to mass claim.



Then we no lynch.

Come on everybody, let’s do this.

Please use your ICness this day to do productive things instead of jokes please.

Vote places, question people, I don't know; go all out, you're not dying today, that's for sure.

Disagree, never stop joking. Sprinkle it with serious. Or do whatever you want that makes the game fun for you.

Some warm fuzzies being thrown out “let’s all joke sprinkle it with serious”.(note I agree with this as a point it’s just you’ve posted lots of this nothingness)

No lynch is very bad, but I don't want to welcome shraeye back with a day 1 lynch. Same for raerae.

Naw, let's kill him, I just want to know why first.

Bahaha

Priorities, amirite?

If true crime shows have taught me nothing else it's the importance of a good alibi or at least a good self-defense story!

@jimmmmmm, it's because he made a dad joke, isn't it? I'll take that as a yes and I fully support it.

But, in all seriousness, he's basically done nothing other than call for a no lynch and question MiX's ridiculousness so what's your reason?

Slight defending of shraeye by saying he hasn’t done much.

Like if a player’s general style makes them hard to read, that player is a liability as town and especially dangerous as scum. Sounds like a great day 1 lynch to me.

I'd generally agree but that got MiX killed D1 last game. I'm interested in letting MiX live one more day if only to see what he's like D2.

Another saying you want to let someone live.


Now befor you try to get specific and defend all of those posts individually, I don’t think anything you are saying is outright scummy or wrong. I think when you see how many of hear lgbt hearted posts and posts slightly defending players it fits the narrative of a scum who is active and isn’t making waves but is slightly buddying a lot of players. It’s brought to merit a day 1 scum read.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: LL

Just to see where this goes.

I’m not sold on raerae, but not opposed, there does seem to be a difference since last game, including a much more artificial anti shraye vibe. Like, going after people that think shraeye is town over aggressively analyzing shraeye... I dunno, just feels off.

Asher interests me, as does space.

And the trio of LL, Robz, Jimmmmm, are always interesting. LL being a new addition to that bucket of players since the other two are apparently consistent in play, but LL is joining for no reason. And his excuse is that people are hard to read. Come on, now, LL that never stopped you from making an LL-Bucket, tell me where I can find a scum in X-people. I need my daily intake of foreword slashes.

[raerae]

Robz, can't defend against that, I really haven't done much this game, it's big and intimidating and most of the conversation has been setup so I commented when I had something to say but was definitely content to sit back and wait until it progressed to something I can chime in on. Like today. This is the stuff I get and so I'm talking now.

[faust]

Okay, I've got a grand total of one townread (Uncle, because he laughed at a joke I made, he never laughed at any of the amazing jokes I made last game even though he was given ample opportunity, this is good enough for me) and no strong scumreads.  I am suspicious of e, MiX, Glooble for being on #teamnotshraeye, still seems like a weird stance to take for virtually no reason.  Basically I'm saying my vote's for sale, if there's a reasonable case out there I'll bite on it.

If you vote Jimmmmm then I promise I won't hammer you tomorrow!

Negotiations are open!  How about you don't even vote me tomorrow?

Hmmm... alright, you've got a deal. But it is off if you change your vote afterwards.

Can you look at ash real quicklike before we shake on it?  Generally what shraeye said and specifically his reason and vote on me.

Meh, I don't think the Ferengi plan thing makes ash scum (as scum I think he would think plans through more, not less) and his vote on you is fine. Not interested.

[shraeye]

Broski, I very specifically did NOT comment on that interaction.  I'm in Didds' corner but I couldn't add anything that wouldn't get me kicked off the forum to that so I shutdown and walked away.

Preach. Seeking not to get kicked off is a good standard.

I would vote for Asher, but not raerae. I am less enthusiastic about e than I was before.

Do it!!  #ashtoashes

[MiX]

Vote: LL

LaLight! I forgot about them!

The world is collapsing: I agree with Uncle for once. He's right, LL's not being himself. But hold on, didn't this happen last time? And he was mason? That game is key for a lot of meta talk...

Vote: LaLight while I skim M121 to see what LL did.

PPE 2: raerae, time to vote Jimmmmmm, cmon, gotta take that deal, my vote's still there in spirit

[Uncleeurope]

What do you meeeean for once?

But last game he made a Faust Silver bucket IIRC.

[2.71828.....]

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

[2.71828.....]

@joth - will you be around for official vote counts leading up to the deadline?

[mcmcsalot]

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

I think it’s because here is such little difference between him and jimm it’s hard to pick one and they you start doubting why you are voting thinking of voting hemcincthe first place.

[raerae]

Vote: LL

LaLight! I forgot about them!

The world is collapsing: I agree with Uncle for once. He's right, LL's not being himself. But hold on, didn't this happen last time? And he was mason? That game is key for a lot of meta talk...

Vote: LaLight while I skim M121 to see what LL did.

PPE 2: raerae, time to vote Jimmmmmm, cmon, gotta take that deal, my vote's still there in spirit

Your vote isn't on jimmmmmm, why are you advocating his lunch and voting elsewhere. Why is a jimmmmmm vote for enough for me but not for you? Spirit votes aren't worth anything I'm this game.

[raerae]

Okay, I've got a grand total of one townread (Uncle, because he laughed at a joke I made, he never laughed at any of the amazing jokes I made last game even though he was given ample opportunity, this is good enough for me) and no strong scumreads.  I am suspicious of e, MiX, Glooble for being on #teamnotshraeye, still seems like a weird stance to take for virtually no reason.  Basically I'm saying my vote's for sale, if there's a reasonable case out there I'll bite on it.

If you vote Jimmmmm then I promise I won't hammer you tomorrow!

Negotiations are open!  How about you don't even vote me tomorrow?

Hmmm... alright, you've got a deal. But it is off if you change your vote afterwards.

Can you look at ash real quicklike before we shake on it?  Generally what shraeye said and specifically his reason and vote on me.

Meh, I don't think the Ferengi plan thing makes ash scum (as scum I think he would think plans through more, not less) and his vote on you is fine. Not interested.

Why do we have to disagree on everything?? I have to sit on this a minute.

[2.71828.....]

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

I think it’s because here is such little difference between him and jimm it’s hard to pick one and they you start doubting why you are voting thinking of voting hemcincthe first place.

Yeah, ok. But like the LaLight votes feel as if they are people saying, "yeah, Robz is a good lynch....Look! LaLight! Let's try a New Thing here right at the deadline" (or approaching the deadline)

[Uncleeurope]

Several people have mentioned that they don’t want Robz to die, so I am trying something different while personally still being okay with him dying.

[shraeye]

If you want to try something new, may I interest you in an ash-lynch??  It's new, it's exciting, all the cool kids are doing it. 

[MiX]

Vote: LL

LaLight! I forgot about them!

The world is collapsing: I agree with Uncle for once. He's right, LL's not being himself. But hold on, didn't this happen last time? And he was mason? That game is key for a lot of meta talk...

Vote: LaLight while I skim M121 to see what LL did.

PPE 2: raerae, time to vote Jimmmmmm, cmon, gotta take that deal, my vote's still there in spirit

Your vote isn't on jimmmmmm, why are you advocating his lunch and voting elsewhere. Why is a jimmmmmm vote for enough for me but not for you? Spirit votes aren't worth anything I'm this game.

Look (wo)man, my vote WAS on Jimmmmmmm and I still want him dead. I just forgot about LL and that means he's scummy, since a player with memorable things is...well, memorable. Just let me reread in peace, alright? 

PPE 1: from the no lynch guy, this sure seems off...

[2.71828.....]

If you want to try something new, may I interest you in an ash-lynch??  It's new, it's exciting, all the cool kids are doing it.

Nah, only new interesting lynches that I introduce are valid

[Uncleeurope]

I’m too hipster to like what the cool kids are doing.

Or something like that.

[faust]

If you want to try something new, may I interest you in an ash-lynch??  It's new, it's exciting, all the cool kids are doing it.

New? People have been lynching ash early since the dawn of time.

[mcmcsalot]

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

I think it’s because here is such little difference between him and jimm it’s hard to pick one and they you start doubting why you are voting thinking of voting hemcincthe first place.

Yeah, ok. But like the LaLight votes feel as if they are people saying, "yeah, Robz is a good lynch....Look! LaLight! Let's try a New Thing here right at the deadline" (or approaching the deadline)

I agree the lalight votes feel scummy but I have a strong townread on Europe and mix so I’m not lynching there just adjusting my reads

[2.71828.....]

If you want to try something new, may I interest you in an ash-lynch??  It's new, it's exciting, all the cool kids are doing it.

New? People have been lynching ash early since the dawn of time.

Since MXIII based on the records at least, so for 6 1/2 years or so.

[shraeye]

If you want to try something new, may I interest you in an ash-lynch??  It's new, it's exciting, all the cool kids are doing it.

Nah, only new interesting lynches that I introduce are valid

[2.71828.....]

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

I think it’s because here is such little difference between him and jimm it’s hard to pick one and they you start doubting why you are voting thinking of voting hemcincthe first place.

Yeah, ok. But like the LaLight votes feel as if they are people saying, "yeah, Robz is a good lynch....Look! LaLight! Let's try a New Thing here right at the deadline" (or approaching the deadline)

I agree the lalight votes feel scummy but I have a strong townread on Europe and mix so I’m not lynching there just adjusting my reads

yeah, but they are only super scummy in light of a Robz flip.  I think actually successfully lynching someone like Robz on D1 of a 18 player game that needs 10 to lynch would be quite incredible, and we could learn plenty from the flip for days to come.

[Uncleeurope]

Well a LL flip doesn’t look good for e, then.

All I am doing with my vote is attempting to parse why people are okay to vote for some people in Robz/Jimmm/LL but not others, as well as pointing out that LL doesn’t normally belong in that bucket.

[Uncleeurope]

LL scum flip*

[Robz888]

I would be okay with lynching Jimmm, but don't want to leave the 2.7 wagon, since it's more of a thing.

Robz is your ring on the 2.7 wagon totally a sheeping of me or is there more?

Also why okay with jimm?

Total sheep of you.

I haven't gotten any specific townie vibes from Jimmm, so that's good enough.

I don't want to lynch faust, ash, you, shraeye, raerae, or MiX, mostly for arbitrary reasons.

[jotheonah]

@joth - will you be around for official vote counts leading up to the deadline?

Probably one before bed tonight if I’m not toasted and the. I’ll try to be on about 1.5 hours before deadline. And maybe no fun flavor.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Haven't read everything in detail yet, but from a skim if the reasons against LL are just that he hasn't done much, I want to say that I think LL is very readable once he actually gets around to posting. He's been scum, what, 3 games in a row now? And correctly lynched each time.

And we've learned (or at least I've learned) that a couple things I used to think were towntells for him aren't.

[Robz888]

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

Same.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

are you prepared to give scumreads to everyone talking setup?  Enjoy that 40 person scumteam.

I've always wanted to be scum with Ash and faust.

Why do you say in like every third post that my reasoning on faust is awful?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: LL

Just to see where this goes.

I’m not sold on raerae, but not opposed, there does seem to be a difference since last game, including a much more artificial anti shraye vibe. Like, going after people that think shraeye is town over aggressively analyzing shraeye... I dunno, just feels off.

Asher interests me, as does space.

And the trio of LL, Robz, Jimmmmm, are always interesting. LL being a new addition to that bucket of players since the other two are apparently consistent in play, but LL is joining for no reason. And his excuse is that people are hard to read. Come on, now, LL that never stopped you from making an LL-Bucket, tell me where I can find a scum in X-people. I need my daily intake of foreword slashes.

UE moves his vote off Robz here and onto a new LL wagon, I noticed him doing this constantly last game around the ends of days as scum. Might not be anything but I want to note this.

[MiX]

1. Jimmmmm is not participating which I can see him do as both alignments. Mostly I would keep him alive, he's a scary power late in the game if town.
2. UmbrageOfSnow - was active and cool, got a lot of townreads from different people and kind of disappeared?
3. LaLight - me, struggling with going here.
4. DatSwan - Did he do anything?
5. mcmcsalot - Somewhat here, not really noticeable, but I liked that he voted for e, because I felt like me and mcmc got the same feeling
6. Glooble - can't read yet
7. WestCoastDidds - she's still awesome. We're yet to see scum!Didds, but for now I feel like it's good old town!her.
8. SpaceAnemone - Struggling as much as I am, I don't really want to lycnh them, see Jimmmmm
9. Shraeye - I get the different feeling from when we were masons. Could definitely vote there
10. MiX - Don't want to lynch cause I still feel guilt over the last game but at one point, sure. Also, yeah, aggression made me quit Mafia for some time once and also broke two games I was in. It isn't fun.
11. faust - let's see D2
12. ashersky - His activity level changed as we saw in Radch, I can't read him yet. For now feel townie
13. 2.71828..... - strong feeling of actilurking. I don't know, it's like I am reading his posts and then I can't remember what they were about...
14. Robz888 - always up for Robz lynch, you know
15. Awaclus - Is he in this game?
16. Uncleeurope - I am scared of him as of now. But rather would not lynch
17. raerae - don't remember anything from them here
18. chickenwarlord - meh?

Done rereading, everyone look at this post. Now tell me LaLight's reads. Look, I'll help by trying to do the same:

Towny: mcmc(?), Didds, ash, Uncle(?)

Scummy: UoS(?), e

That's it. It's a readlist where there are only 6 non null reads. This whole post is a nothingnburger, it says a bunch of true things but nothing definite, nothing binding...this is in a clear contrast to M121 LL, where he was voting with reasons and doing a lot of scumhunting (yes, we scum read him then, but that's because he was much less active than before and he explained why that was the case. Besides he did flip town). This is coupled with a lot of non!LL things, like not buddying everyone and not being super positive all the time: it might be null, but it's clearly different from town!LL. The rest of his posts are pretty empty as well, except his e vote: I highly doubt they're one scum team, but that doesn't matter here.

And that's it, really, this is the best case I've seen so far on anyone ever in both of my games. If anyone wants to poke holes at it, feel free to, here to learn.

[MiX]

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

I think it’s because here is such little difference between him and jimm it’s hard to pick one and they you start doubting why you are voting thinking of voting hemcincthe first place.

Yeah, ok. But like the LaLight votes feel as if they are people saying, "yeah, Robz is a good lynch....Look! LaLight! Let's try a New Thing here right at the deadline" (or approaching the deadline)

How many people do you think are scumbuddies with Robz? Do you seriously expect to catch 2+ scum in an 18 player game in D1? At least admit that some of those were made by town.

Haven't read everything in detail yet, but from a skim if the reasons against LL are just that he hasn't done much, I want to say that I think LL is very readable once he actually gets around to posting. He's been scum, what, 3 games in a row now? And correctly lynched each time.

And we've learned (or at least I've learned) that a couple things I used to think were towntells for him aren't.

Did you forget about the game you modded? He was town there...and this has been said before.


Okay, now that's done, I can say who I'll actually support as lynches: LL, Jimmmmmmm, Space and Glooble, in that order. ash and raerae too if I somehow hear really really good cases but I doubt it. Right now I think LL is a pretty sweet lynch, so yeah, go there. Please read my case on him!

[shraeye]

I'm not sure Umbrage is on LaLight's scummy list, but I think I am.

LaLight's reads are a whole lot of nothing; MiX makes a good point.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Did you forget about the game you modded? He was town there...and this has been said before.

Actually I did. He died so early and to be fair he had a private QT, which is pretty scummy!

Why the need to say "this has been said before?"

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: LL

Just to see where this goes.

I’m not sold on raerae, but not opposed, there does seem to be a difference since last game, including a much more artificial anti shraye vibe. Like, going after people that think shraeye is town over aggressively analyzing shraeye... I dunno, just feels off.

Asher interests me, as does space.

And the trio of LL, Robz, Jimmmmm, are always interesting. LL being a new addition to that bucket of players since the other two are apparently consistent in play, but LL is joining for no reason. And his excuse is that people are hard to read. Come on, now, LL that never stopped you from making an LL-Bucket, tell me where I can find a scum in X-people. I need my daily intake of foreword slashes.

UE moves his vote off Robz here and onto a new LL wagon, I noticed him doing this constantly last game around the ends of days as scum. Might not be anything but I want to note this.

I did it in my previous games too, I always move my vote around.

Vote: Snow

See?



Vote: LL

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yeah, I actually am kind of liking that case and disliking LL's posts as I reread. Scum is stressful.

[shraeye]

Why do you say in like every third post that my reasoning on faust is awful?

It was a super stretch of an analysis on what felt like a very-unimportant point, which was that faust revealed his thought process regarding Dukat.
The fact that you seem to have insta-thought faust was scum based on this nothingness from the first 24 hrs, AND THEN haven't really updated your read on him at all, stinks like a stinker.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It's not about moving your vote around, it's about moving pressure off people you don't really want to lynch toward the end of the day.

And it's not really for you, it's for people to notice late game if, for example, Robz flips scum and I'm dead.

[MiX]

Did you forget about the game you modded? He was town there...and this has been said before.

Actually I did. He died so early and to be fair he had a private QT, which is pretty scummy!

Why the need to say "this has been said before?"

Because you should've known this extra piece of information from this game as well? And because I found forgetting that to be weird. Do you want me to quote it? I'm 100% sure it happened.

PPE 1: Yay I made a good case! But Uncle's the last person that I want to agree with me, he's already on that wagon...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It didn't feel super-unimportant, it felt very un-faust. And it's a misrep to say that it's because he revealed his thought process, it's about what his thought process was.

Reads aren't less valid because they happen in the first 24 hours. And you've said a lot more about my read being bad than I said about it in the first place, you keep repeating this like you're trying to discredit it.

[MiX]

PPE 1: Yay I made a good case! But Uncle's the last person that I want to agree with me, he's already on that wagon...

That wasn't PPE 1, and it also wasn't Uncle, it was UoS, you both start with U...then I change that sentence to:

Yay, I made a good case!

PPE 5

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Because you should've known this extra piece of information from this game as well? And because I found forgetting that to be weird. Do you want me to quote it? I'm 100% sure it happened.

So it's weirder for me not to remember something that was said in thread than something from a game I modded?

Why would you quote it, what would that accomplish? Do you think I'm denying that someone said LaLight was a mason in my game? Do you think I'm denying it happened?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'd say Robbz is probably my #1 skumread at the moment.

Why?

[MiX]

Because you should've known this extra piece of information from this game as well? And because I found forgetting that to be weird. Do you want me to quote it? I'm 100% sure it happened.

So it's weirder for me not to remember something that was said in thread than something from a game I modded?

Why would you quote it, what would that accomplish? Do you think I'm denying that someone said LaLight was a mason in my game? Do you think I'm denying it happened?

I found your question odd. Not really sure how to answer it...so I just said a bunch of truths. No, there's no point on quoting it, I just didn't understand why you asked that...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Because it seemed weird to me for you to say "this has been said before" and I want to get into your head about why you said it.

[WestCoastDidds]

I am in a workshop, and have to pay attention and try not to be a terrible student.

I will go back to vote: LL because it seems like more people are feeling it and I moved off him originally in the push toward consolidation instigated by faust yesterday.

I think that only people I am willing to move to, at this point, are Ashes or Robz. 

I will be around later this evening, and for about an hour before deadline in the morning (for me).

[shraeye]

It didn't feel super-unimportant, it felt very un-faust. And it's a misrep to say that it's because he revealed his thought process, it's about what his thought process was.

Reads aren't less valid because they happen in the first 24 hours. And you've said a lot more about my read being bad than I said about it in the first place, you keep repeating this like you're trying to discredit it.

I *am* trying to discredit it, isn't that obvious? Scum want to make these baseless spread-suspicion cases.  So I'm saying it's a baseless case, you seemed chuffed to pieces that you made it and played a game with it, that feels like the sort of thing scum would be up to.

[Uncleeurope]

It's not about moving your vote around, it's about moving pressure off people you don't really want to lynch toward the end of the day.

And it's not really for you, it's for people to notice late game if, for example, Robz flips scum and I'm dead.

But I didn’t do that either, I moved off of people I wanted to lynch to other people I wanted to lynch. Sometimes I move from someone I wanted to lynch to people I didn’t. I was even on a partner at the end of day one.

I don’t like just chilling on a person forever without feeling out the opinions about other people.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So who has talked about voting Robz but hasn't voted there?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It didn't feel super-unimportant, it felt very un-faust. And it's a misrep to say that it's because he revealed his thought process, it's about what his thought process was.

Reads aren't less valid because they happen in the first 24 hours. And you've said a lot more about my read being bad than I said about it in the first place, you keep repeating this like you're trying to discredit it.

I *am* trying to discredit it, isn't that obvious? Scum want to make these baseless spread-suspicion cases.  So I'm saying it's a baseless case, you seemed chuffed to pieces that you made it and played a game with it, that feels like the sort of thing scum would be up to.

"Chuffed" is maybe the best word of all time, I can't be mad at you. But again with the rhetoric.

But why so much focus on it, it's not a case I was driving during most of the time you kept talking about it, and I know we're never going to lynch faust on Day 1 but it will be potentially interesting to see how people reacted to me. Which is frustrating because I got so little reaction.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm wagon seems dumb, and I'm only really convinced Awaclus is reading the game of the people on it. Seems very lazy.

I think raerae is town, a lot of people jumped in and sort of fanned the flames with this civility argument and she ducked out until it was over with just voicing a bit of support. Townreading UE over laughing at her joke, and her pointing out MiX's calling for her to vote Jimmmm while moving his vote elsewhere. Also, animals are better than humans.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 1.7


faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (3): LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (2): shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
LaLight (3): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds

No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch most players. Day 1 ends at 8 a.m. forum time on Saturday, March 2.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I was just preparing my own VC because I thought you weren't around, jerk.

[Uncleeurope]

The Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm wagon seems dumb, and I'm only really convinced Awaclus is reading the game of the people on it. Seems very lazy.

I think raerae is town, a lot of people jumped in and sort of fanned the flames with this civility argument and she ducked out until it was over with just voicing a bit of support. Townreading UE over laughing at her joke, and her pointing out MiX's calling for her to vote Jimmmm while moving his vote elsewhere. Also, animals are better than humans.

Okay, buddy, out with it, who would you kill, because it seems you are providing more defenses than offenses here.

[raerae]

I'm not sure Umbrage is on LaLight's scummy list, but I think I am.

LaLight's reads are a whole lot of nothing; MiX makes a good point.

How is LL having a bunch of nulls different from anybody else having a bunch?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

That's what I'm working out... Eddie (it's so hard for me to call you that, but it seems somehow appropriate here?)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

At this point I'm going to put one of LL or e to... L-6. Debating which one, I don't have a strong gut feeling either way right now.

[Uncleeurope]

That's what I'm working out... Eddie (it's so hard for me to call you that, but it seems somehow appropriate here?)

Imagine how I feel.

I have spent so long looking through long posts for “UE” or “Uncle” that it makes it harder for me to know when people are talking to me, I will get the hang of it, eventually.

[WestCoastDidds]

That's what I'm working out... Eddie (it's so hard for me to call you that, but it seems somehow appropriate here?)

I told Debatepro the history of Eddie's name last night. He thought it was somewhat funny and quite charming...or maybe that is just the way I tell it.  He is the Uncle of Europe! 

[UmbrageOfSnow]

edventually?

[Uncleeurope]

edventually?

Stop.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

NEVER

also

Vote: LaLight

L-6

[shraeye]

I'm not sure Umbrage is on LaLight's scummy list, but I think I am.

LaLight's reads are a whole lot of nothing; MiX makes a good point.

How is LL having a bunch of nulls different from anybody else having a bunch?

It's the "why bother writing it?" aspect.  That and it seemed to be written in a way that sounded like a reads list.  The fact that it took me a second read to see how fluff it was raises my suspicion.

[shraeye]

vote: LaLight

[MiX]

I'm not sure Umbrage is on LaLight's scummy list, but I think I am.

LaLight's reads are a whole lot of nothing; MiX makes a good point.

How is LL having a bunch of nulls different from anybody else having a bunch?

It's the "why bother writing it?" aspect.  That and it seemed to be written in a way that sounded like a reads list.  The fact that it took me a second read to see how fluff it was raises my suspicion.

This. This sums up my case (and the lack of positivity I've known to love from LL).

NEVER

also

Vote: LaLight

L-6

Only 4 votes? Come on, we can do better!

@faust, you said Jimmmmm or LL, right? Well, LL has a better case, vote here.

@chicken, we need you to put a vote down...anywhere. Maybe here's the place for it?

@Robz, the faster you vote, the faster the day ends! You can't beat these odds.

@shraeye, are you on the wagon yet? Don't be shy, come on...look, I promise I'll dismantle whatever case you have on your current vote, or at least explaim why LL's more scummy.

@raerae, LL doesn't just have a lot of nulls...he has virtually no scumreads. Just e and technically UoS. And his "read list" isn't a read list at all! At least I tried to state (most of) my scumreads...

@e, I like your thought experiment with Robz, but let's be honest here, has he REALLY done anything scummy? No! Right? Did I miss anything?

There, if we all vote, together we can bring down the top scumread! Ah, almost forgot...

@LL, if you're Loved, please selfhammer like you did in your last scum game. Thanks in advance.

PPE 1: L-5! Oh boy!

[2.71828.....]

I do not think LaLight is scum

[MiX]

I do not think LaLight is scum

What's the case on Robz? Lurking? What else?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I am more interested in e's town case on LL.

[Uncleeurope]

I am more interested in e's town case on LL.

What this gentleman said.

[shraeye]

I do not think LaLight is scum

congrats.

[MiX]

I am more interested in e's town case on LL.

What this gentleman said.

First things first...if we are to lynch LaLight and actually getting a scum flip, we need to become one. This means uniting in reads, which here means dismantling e's scumread on Robz, or at least put it to null where it belongs...

[2.71828.....]

I am more interested in e's town case on LL.

What this gentleman said.

First things first...if we are to lynch LaLight and actually getting a scum flip, we need to become one. This means uniting in reads, which here means dismantling e's scumread on Robz, or at least put it to null where it belongs...

you are that confident LaLight is scum?

[2.71828.....]

I suppose I should reread LaLight.  I just am not getting scum vibes from them.

[raerae]

@MiX, I sold my vote to the highest bidder because I don't have scumreads. That explanation holds no weight with me, try again.



Actually, scratch that, don't try with me, telling me what to do and where to put my vote generally just ensures I'm not going to do that. I don't like your case, shraeye's explanation made more sense even if that's what you were trying to convey. I need to review a bit.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

That doesn't follow. Town can converge on a good wagon for disparate reasons. Why do you care what people think of robz if they aren't voting him? Do you think shraeye or I should get off the wagon? We disagree with each other.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Put another way, MiX, why do you care?

[shraeye]

That doesn't follow. Town can converge on a good wagon for disparate reasons. Why do you care what people think of robz if they aren't voting him? Do you think shraeye or I should get off the wagon? We disagree with each other.

unvote

[shraeye]

Nah, just joking.

vote: LaLight

[Uncleeurope]

I am more interested in e's town case on LL.

What this gentleman said.

First things first...if we are to lynch LaLight and actually getting a scum flip, we need to become one. This means uniting in reads, which here means dismantling e's scumread on Robz, or at least put it to null where it belongs...

We don’t have to eliminate all scumreads but one to vote from someone, e can find people scummy and vote for other scummy people. I don’t need to know why e finds Robz scummy if they will vote for LL.

I just want to know why LL is towny so I can move my vote as needed.

[MiX]

I am more interested in e's town case on LL.

What this gentleman said.

First things first...if we are to lynch LaLight and actually getting a scum flip, we need to become one. This means uniting in reads, which here means dismantling e's scumread on Robz, or at least put it to null where it belongs...

you are that confident LaLight is scum?

No, but the only way LL flips scum is if we all stand together. Otherwise scum will say "Naaaaah let's no lynch, that's fun", shraeye then moves there and suddently we lose the wagon.

That doesn't follow. Town can converge on a good wagon for disparate reasons. Why do you care what people think of robz if they aren't voting him? Do you think shraeye or I should get off the wagon? We disagree with each other.

Put another way, MiX, why do you care?

Is this another one of your cryptic questions? If I want LL to flip, I want e to move here; I believe the best way to do so is to dismantle his scumread on Robz first, then he'll accept other options. Maybe I'm wrong? I think doing things by steps is easier.

I am more interested in e's town case on LL.

What this gentleman said.

First things first...if we are to lynch LaLight and actually getting a scum flip, we need to become one. This means uniting in reads, which here means dismantling e's scumread on Robz, or at least put it to null where it belongs...

We don’t have to eliminate all scumreads but one to vote from someone, e can find people scummy and vote for other scummy people. I don’t need to know why e finds Robz scummy if they will vote for LL.

I just want to know why LL is towny so I can move my vote as needed.

Yes, but I want him to find LL scummier than Robz, so he votes here. Kinda sounds like manipulation when I say it outloud, but it's a relative thing: the more e thinks Robz is scum, the less he would vote for LL, right?

[Uncleeurope]

Not if Robz is scum.

Not necessarily anyway.

[2.71828.....]

I will literally vote for anyone as deadline approaches to get a lynch through

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm approximately 70 posts behind in terms of reading, and I'm at a work party tonight. To avoid being completely useless, here's the fastest thing I can do:

No interest in lynching (townreads, people I think are not good D1 lynches, newbie)
3. LaLight
7. WestCoastDidds
8. SpaceAnemone
9. Shraeye
11. faust
12. ashersky
17. raerae
18. chickenwarlord

Little interest in lynching (feeling meh on, but happy about the fact they're posting stuff)
5. mcmcsalot
2. UmbrageOfSnow

Happy to go along with a lynch/have no opinion on (scumreads up to null people I don't have strong feelings about)
1. Jimmmmm
4. DatSwan
6. Glooble
10. MiX
13. 2.71828.....
14. Robz888
15. Awaclus
16. Uncleeurope

Things I will try to do before deadline:
1) Re-read everyone on the bottom list there.
2) Get the vote counter set up so I can try to post useful vote counts. The deadline is 1pm my time, which is totally civilised for me, so I should be here from 2-3 hours beforehand.

[raerae]

@faust, do you have anything else on jimmmmmm other than the claim question/reason you originally voted?

[WestCoastDidds]

I will literally vote for anyone as deadline approaches to get a lynch through

same, although scum is preferable (duh)

[Glooble]

Hi, so I fully admit I skimmed- lots of content since this morning and I don’t have a lot of time. I like MiX’s case on LaLight. I think it’s similar to the Jimmmmm wagon (not a lot of content and what there is fees manufactured for the sake of making content.) Since it seems to have a lot more traction And Im not going to have time to properly catch up before the deadline, I’m happy to move my vote to LaLight.

vote: LaLight

Sorry for disappearing for the final day of the day, but it really couldn’t be helped.

I will be in a few hours before the deadline (provided we don’t lynch before then.) If I’m on again before that, I’ll probab be three sheets to the wind.

[Uncleeurope]

I disagree with a decent amount of Space’s list there. Don’t know what that means, but I am interested in what changes (if anything) after 70 pages of reading.

I would probably prefer people catch up before worrying about votes, but that might just be me.

Also it would be bad to lynch me, probably.

[WestCoastDidds]

This is probably right...

Vote count 1. Didds

2.71828..... (3): LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Jimmmmm (1): faust
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (1): raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
LaLight (6): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Umbrage, Shraeye, Glooble

No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

[faust]

@faust, do you have anything else on jimmmmmm other than the claim question/reason you originally voted?

I did not like the waz he responded to the post by basically saying "look other people do it too" and implicitly accusing me of having ulterior motives without voting for me.

[Uncleeurope]

@faust, do you have anything else on jimmmmmm other than the claim question/reason you originally voted?

I did not like the waz he responded to the post by basically saying "look other people do it too" and implicitly accusing me of having ulterior motives without voting for me.

Yeah, I noticed that, too. His defense was super weak.

[faust]

The Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm wagon seems dumb, and I'm only really convinced Awaclus is reading the game of the people on it. Seems very lazy.

You don't think I'm reading the game? Was Awaclus ever voting for Jimmmmm? I am very confused.

Also the LaLight wagon is lazier than Jimmmmm. And LaLight is not around on the weekends, so it's likely that he won't even be able to address it.

[faust]

We should at least have some sort of counterwagon if at all possible. The many single votes don't help (yes I know, I'm one of them, but I don't want to go to e and that's like the only other option right now).

[2.71828.....]

We should at least have some sort of counterwagon if at all possible. The many single votes don't help (yes I know, I'm one of them, but I don't want to go to e and that's like the only other option right now).

Robz is an option

[MiX]

The Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm wagon seems dumb, and I'm only really convinced Awaclus is reading the game of the people on it. Seems very lazy.

You don't think I'm reading the game? Was Awaclus ever voting for Jimmmmm? I am very confused.

Also the LaLight wagon is lazier than Jimmmmm. And LaLight is not around on the weekends, so it's likely that he won't even be able to address it.

Ah, you're right...damn, I forgot about weekend thing. But why is it lazy? It has the best case of everyone around here...unless the Jimmmm case is better? I don't think it is...

I would swap to Jimmmmm if necessary but I think we need EVERYONE on LL, that's really the only way this is happening.

PPE 2?; I guess also Robz? I don't get the Robz part...

[WestCoastDidds]

We should at least have some sort of counterwagon if at all possible. The many single votes don't help (yes I know, I'm one of them, but I don't want to go to e and that's like the only other option right now).

Agree... and I am concerned that lots of the single vote folks are not generally around or have been active.

I just saw that there is a mistake in the VC, Ashersky is listed twice.

[WestCoastDidds]

What we need is the single voters to consolidate....not the LL people to just switch, is that right?

[2.71828.....]

What we need is the single voters to consolidate....not the LL people to just switch, is that right?

both need to happen actually

[MiX]

Why are we moving away from LL? How is Jimmmmmm or Robz a better lynch? I don't get it.

Can someone explain?

[Uncleeurope]

I could Vote: Jimmm if that helps. I would prefer LL to die but I would prefer second place to also be someone I am fine with killing, and Jimmm is definitely one of those people.

Also, what makes the LL wagon lazy?

[raerae]

@faust, do you have anything else on jimmmmmm other than the claim question/reason you originally voted?

I did not like the waz he responded to the post by basically saying "look other people do it too" and implicitly accusing me of having ulterior motives without voting for me.

Sold.

Vote: Jimmmmmm

The Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm wagon seems dumb, and I'm only really convinced Awaclus is reading the game of the people on it. Seems very lazy.

You don't think I'm reading the game? Was Awaclus ever voting for Jimmmmm? I am very confused.

Also the LaLight wagon is lazier than Jimmmmm. And LaLight is not around on the weekends, so it's likely that he won't even be able to address it.

Ah, you're right...damn, I forgot about weekend thing. But why is it lazy? It has the best case of everyone around here...unless the Jimmmm case is better? I don't think it is...

I would swap to Jimmmmm if necessary but I think we need EVERYONE on LL, that's really the only way this is happening.

PPE 2?; I guess also Robz? I don't get the Robz part...

"Best" is subjective, remember that.  Is there anybody you WON'T vote for?

[Uncleeurope]

The Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm wagon seems dumb, and I'm only really convinced Awaclus is reading the game of the people on it. Seems very lazy.

You don't think I'm reading the game? Was Awaclus ever voting for Jimmmmm? I am very confused.

Also the LaLight wagon is lazier than Jimmmmm. And LaLight is not around on the weekends, so it's likely that he won't even be able to address it.

To make my previous post have context, why does the LL wagon not make sense to you? I was under the assumption that you could just as easily be voting LL?

[MiX]

The Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmm wagon seems dumb, and I'm only really convinced Awaclus is reading the game of the people on it. Seems very lazy.

You don't think I'm reading the game? Was Awaclus ever voting for Jimmmmm? I am very confused.

Also the LaLight wagon is lazier than Jimmmmm. And LaLight is not around on the weekends, so it's likely that he won't even be able to address it.

Ah, you're right...damn, I forgot about weekend thing. But why is it lazy? It has the best case of everyone around here...unless the Jimmmm case is better? I don't think it is...

I would swap to Jimmmmm if necessary but I think we need EVERYONE on LL, that's really the only way this is happening.

PPE 2?; I guess also Robz? I don't get the Robz part...

"Best" is subjective, remember that.  Is there anybody you WON'T vote for?

Yes: everyone that isn't on my read list. So I'll vote for LL, Jimmmmmm, Robz, e in that order...ah and Space. And then you, if people really want to... That's all. It's a lot of people, isn't it? But I prefer a flip to nothing here, at least we should try...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So, e, did you ever get around to rereading LaLight?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

You don't think I'm reading the game? Was Awaclus ever voting for Jimmmmm? I am very confused.

Also the LaLight wagon is lazier than Jimmmmm. And LaLight is not around on the weekends, so it's likely that he won't even be able to address it.

I derped about who was on what wagons. I don't like e's wagon. The Jimmmm wagon is absolutely lazier than the LaLight wagon and there's really not much for him to address. I'd lynch through most claims other than Jake I think.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

But I know you're reading the game, faust, and didn't mean to imply otherwise.

[2.71828.....]

So, e, did you ever get around to rereading LaLight?

Not yet. I will after this game of Dominion that I am playing

[2.71828.....]

So, e, did you ever get around to rereading LaLight?

Not yet. I will after this game of Dominion that I am playing

Reading now

[Robz888]

vote: LL

[MiX]

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

[2.71828.....]

So, LaLight has not been very active at all.  That means

1) They are scum and just uncomfortable and slightly meh at being scum so many times recently
2) They are town and just busy and finding a hard time to get into the game like they said

I think that throwing LaLight in category 1 is basically lazy and that they can be super helpful to keep around later in the day.  That being said, nothing really stood out as "LaLight is town!" or "LaLight is scum!"

Just kind of LaLight is....not really around.

[2.71828.....]

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

And by a bunch he really just means one really loud e that is making your wagon sound a lot larger than it is. 

[2.71828.....]

because basically no one else wants to commit to lynching Robz

[2.71828.....]

Last time I played multi-ball with Robz I had a gut D1 read on him that he was scum, and he was (Toy Story.  And I don't think we have played any other multi-ball games since that one?)

Trust me, I am a pro at this.

[2.71828.....]

Unfortunately I am not expecting being superactive on D1, sorry. I will get to it eventually unless I'm killed or lynched

Plus, LaLight (while not v/la) posted about not likely having a very active D1.  Let's just lynch them tomorrow and stick with Robz today.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I thought Didds was committed to lynching Robz.

[2.71828.....]

I thought Didds was committed to lynching Robz.

Didds is actually voting LaLight

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey MiX, since you like my enigmatic questions so much, why do you think Uncleeurope and I were both more interested in e's LaLight read than his Robz read?

[WestCoastDidds]

vote: Robz

I am committeed to a lynch.  I am willing to vote for LL, Robz, or Asher.  I won't vote for Jimmmm today.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm going to totally speak for UE here and just assume I know his thought process.

@e So would you say your read on LL changed in any way?

[WestCoastDidds]

More right than it was before...
Vote count 1.2 Didds

LaLight (5): MiX, UmbrageofSnow, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Jimmmmm (3): faust, Uncleeurope, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, , Awaclus
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds,

shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan


No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

[Uncleeurope]

vote: Robz

I am committeed to a lynch.  I am willing to vote for LL, Robz, or Asher.  I won't vote for Jimmmm today.

Again, why?

People are drawing weird distinctions between people and I am not seeing it.

We have a camp of Robz supporters/Jimmmm Supporters/LL Supporters and all of them are pretty lackluster in terms of defenses. Or even offenses on the other.

Why is Jimmm completely off limits?

[WestCoastDidds]

So, LaLight has not been very active at all.  That means

1) They are scum and just uncomfortable and slightly meh at being scum so many times recently
2) They are town and just busy and finding a hard time to get into the game like they said

I think that throwing LaLight in category 1 is basically lazy and that they can be super helpful to keep around later in the day.  That being said, nothing really stood out as "LaLight is town!" or "LaLight is scum!"

Just kind of LaLight is....not really around.

I agree with all of this e.  Is it any different for Robz?

[2.71828.....]

@e So would you say your read on LL changed in any way?

No.  I still don't like lynching them today.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: Robz

Baaaaaaaaa

[WestCoastDidds]

vote: Robz

I am committeed to a lynch.  I am willing to vote for LL, Robz, or Asher.  I won't vote for Jimmmm today.

Again, why?

People are drawing weird distinctions between people and I am not seeing it.

We have a camp of Robz supporters/Jimmmm Supporters/LL Supporters and all of them are pretty lackluster in terms of defenses. Or even offenses on the other.

Why is Jimmm completely off limits?

That's fair, Eddie.

I feel like Robz, LL, Jimm, and Ashes have all been similarly low level players and we wouldn't miss any of them at this point.  Any of them could be awesome later.  In fact, all of them would likely be awesome later. Jimmmm is/was mostly in trouble for sticking up for me, so I am not gonna vote for him today.  I am okay if all of you do, though.

[WestCoastDidds]

Since I still have it up...
1.3Didds

LaLight (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow
Jimmmmm (3): faust, Uncleeurope, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, , Awaclus

shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan


No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

[2.71828.....]

So, LaLight has not been very active at all.  That means

1) They are scum and just uncomfortable and slightly meh at being scum so many times recently
2) They are town and just busy and finding a hard time to get into the game like they said

I think that throwing LaLight in category 1 is basically lazy and that they can be super helpful to keep around later in the day.  That being said, nothing really stood out as "LaLight is town!" or "LaLight is scum!"

Just kind of LaLight is....not really around.

I agree with all of this e.  Is it any different for Robz?

yes.  Robz has a couple things that I find scummy.
1) His self-aware meta post
2) I don't really like his stance on faust here (basically pre-arguing that if faust isn't NKed he must be scum):

I am just never going to support a faust lynch on Day 1, unless I'm overwhelmingly certain he is scum, which is an unlikely position for me to be in. The reason is his reads are significantly better than the average town player, which means he's worth preserving more than almost anyone else. Also, scum know this, and often shoot him at their first chance. Lets not do scums' job for them.

Honestly I would probably support no lynch over a faust lynch, even though I hate no lynching on Day 1.

3. His "useful" vote one me. Just to wagon and lynch someone as helpful town.  And then re-emphasized that is vote is all about utility and getting a lynch (as evidenced again by his convenient move to LaLight)

[Robz888]

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

A lot of people are always trying to lynch me, so nothing new there.

I don’t know that I’m screaming look at me I’m town, but I am checking in and willing to move my vote to get any lynch, which is the most towny thing you can do at the moment because it’s going to be damn hard to get a lynch and deadline is looming.

[MiX]

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

And by a bunch he really just means one really loud e that is making your wagon sound a lot larger than it is. 

Well, there's 2, then ., then 7, then 1, then 8, then 2, then 8... But I remember others talking about it, right?

As for your LL reread...well, clearly he's not active. But I really don't see an attempt at reversing that...Space did it, for example. LaLight's attempt to do so was a botched attempt to make a reads list which just has a bunch of nulls...something I expected if it was early in the day, but it wasn't. There were enough posts to talk about each person and at least say what he thought about them...we were left with barely any information about LL's thoughts and/or thought process, and that for me screams "eh, I'm not active anyway, I have an excuse to not do much this day, it's D1 anyway, 18 players how likely is it for me to get lynched", which is pretty scummy.

PPE too many, why Robz and not Jimmmmmmm? At least Jimmmmmmm has that weird comment that faust pointed out, Robz has nothing. And didn't we establish that that was part of his meta, both as town and scum? At least that's what I remember...

I'll copy faust and say that Robz votes are the laziest of them all, there's nothing on him. Nothing. Unless I missed something?? I still haven't heard e's reasons to vote for Robz!

[Robz888]

So, LaLight has not been very active at all.  That means

1) They are scum and just uncomfortable and slightly meh at being scum so many times recently
2) They are town and just busy and finding a hard time to get into the game like they said

I think that throwing LaLight in category 1 is basically lazy and that they can be super helpful to keep around later in the day.  That being said, nothing really stood out as "LaLight is town!" or "LaLight is scum!"

Just kind of LaLight is....not really around.

I agree with all of this e.  Is it any different for Robz?

yes.  Robz has a couple things that I find scummy.
1) His self-aware meta post
2) I don't really like his stance on faust here (basically pre-arguing that if faust isn't NKed he must be scum):

I am just never going to support a faust lynch on Day 1, unless I'm overwhelmingly certain he is scum, which is an unlikely position for me to be in. The reason is his reads are significantly better than the average town player, which means he's worth preserving more than almost anyone else. Also, scum know this, and often shoot him at their first chance. Lets not do scums' job for them.

Honestly I would probably support no lynch over a faust lynch, even though I hate no lynching on Day 1.

3. His "useful" vote one me. Just to wagon and lynch someone as helpful town.  And then re-emphasized that is vote is all about utility and getting a lynch (as evidenced again by his convenient move to LaLight)

This is always always always my stance on Faust though.

[2.71828.....]

As for your LL reread...well, clearly he's not active. But I really don't see an attempt at reversing that...Space did it, for example. LaLight's attempt to do so was a botched attempt to make a reads list which just has a bunch of nulls...something I expected if it was early in the day, but it wasn't.

yeah, a "botched reads list" or just town that doesn't know who scum is in a large game?  I will go for the second narrative.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Robz

I dunno, people. My vote is still fluid, just trying some stuff out.

[MiX]

So, LaLight has not been very active at all.  That means

1) They are scum and just uncomfortable and slightly meh at being scum so many times recently
2) They are town and just busy and finding a hard time to get into the game like they said

I think that throwing LaLight in category 1 is basically lazy and that they can be super helpful to keep around later in the day.  That being said, nothing really stood out as "LaLight is town!" or "LaLight is scum!"

Just kind of LaLight is....not really around.

I agree with all of this e.  Is it any different for Robz?

yes.  Robz has a couple things that I find scummy.
1) His self-aware meta post
2) I don't really like his stance on faust here (basically pre-arguing that if faust isn't NKed he must be scum):

I am just never going to support a faust lynch on Day 1, unless I'm overwhelmingly certain he is scum, which is an unlikely position for me to be in. The reason is his reads are significantly better than the average town player, which means he's worth preserving more than almost anyone else. Also, scum know this, and often shoot him at their first chance. Lets not do scums' job for them.

Honestly I would probably support no lynch over a faust lynch, even though I hate no lynching on Day 1.

3. His "useful" vote one me. Just to wagon and lynch someone as helpful town.  And then re-emphasized that is vote is all about utility and getting a lynch (as evidenced again by his convenient move to LaLight)

This is always always always my stance on Faust though.

Robz is right, I remember these exact words in...what was your last game, Robz? That one. And he was town. So...that point's useless.

The others are okaaaaay, I just thought that was also part of his town meta. Didn't we talk about how Robz always plays to his meta and how he's terrible D1 and how he doesn't want to change it ever and mcmc was a bit mad that it was the case and didn't like how town let it slide...okay this is getting out of hand, but isn't this also in line with his town meta?

On the other hand, LL's play is definitly not town!LL, in fact it doesn't even seem like scum!LL, but he did change metas starting in M121, which is how he got scumread there, so maybe this is his new scum meta? When not very active, post read lists without a lot of information so people get off his back?

Whoever are the people pushing for a Jimmmmm lynch, please make a case like e did, it really helps, now I can actually see a Robz lynch.

Hey MiX, since you like my enigmatic questions so much, why do you think Uncleeurope and I were both more interested in e's LaLight read than his Robz read?

Because...no I have no idea. Is it something e said earlier in the day? Would have to reread...


See you all in 10 hours or so, please don't hammer? Deadline's in 13 hours, right? We have time

[2.71828.....]

So, LaLight has not been very active at all.  That means

1) They are scum and just uncomfortable and slightly meh at being scum so many times recently
2) They are town and just busy and finding a hard time to get into the game like they said

I think that throwing LaLight in category 1 is basically lazy and that they can be super helpful to keep around later in the day.  That being said, nothing really stood out as "LaLight is town!" or "LaLight is scum!"

Just kind of LaLight is....not really around.

I agree with all of this e.  Is it any different for Robz?

yes.  Robz has a couple things that I find scummy.
1) His self-aware meta post
2) I don't really like his stance on faust here (basically pre-arguing that if faust isn't NKed he must be scum):

I am just never going to support a faust lynch on Day 1, unless I'm overwhelmingly certain he is scum, which is an unlikely position for me to be in. The reason is his reads are significantly better than the average town player, which means he's worth preserving more than almost anyone else. Also, scum know this, and often shoot him at their first chance. Lets not do scums' job for them.

Honestly I would probably support no lynch over a faust lynch, even though I hate no lynching on Day 1.

3. His "useful" vote one me. Just to wagon and lynch someone as helpful town.  And then re-emphasized that is vote is all about utility and getting a lynch (as evidenced again by his convenient move to LaLight)

This is always always always my stance on Faust though.

Yeah, well, it's D1 and you have to make a case. Let's see how it works overnight then I will move/stay put tomorrow as required

[raerae]

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

And by a bunch he really just means one really loud e that is making your wagon sound a lot larger than it is. 

Well, there's 2, then ., then 7, then 1, then 8, then 2, then 8... But I remember others talking about it, right?

As for your LL reread...well, clearly he's not active. But I really don't see an attempt at reversing that...Space did it, for example. LaLight's attempt to do so was a botched attempt to make a reads list which just has a bunch of nulls...something I expected if it was early in the day, but it wasn't. There were enough posts to talk about each person and at least say what he thought about them...we were left with barely any information about LL's thoughts and/or thought process, and that for me screams "eh, I'm not active anyway, I have an excuse to not do much this day, it's D1 anyway, 18 players how likely is it for me to get lynched", which is pretty scummy.

PPE too many, why Robz and not Jimmmmmmm? At least Jimmmmmmm has that weird comment that faust pointed out, Robz has nothing. And didn't we establish that that was part of his meta, both as town and scum? At least that's what I remember...

I'll copy faust and say that Robz votes are the laziest of them all, there's nothing on him. Nothing. Unless I missed something?? I still haven't heard e's reasons to vote for Robz!

Then why is he on your "would lynch" list???  Your reads are EVERYWHERE.  I'm inherently mistrustful of being on any lynch with you because you just keep jumping to the one gaining the most steam.  Frankly, it makes me what to vote for whoever you DON'T want to vote for.

Yes: everyone that isn't on my read list. So I'll vote for LL, Jimmmmmm, Robz, e in that order...ah and Space. And then you, if people really want to... That's all. It's a lot of people, isn't it? But I prefer a flip to nothing here, at least we should try...

[WestCoastDidds]

So, LL is at 4 votes now, Robz is at 4...everyone else with votes has 1 or 2.

Good night Europeans!  See you about an hour before deadline...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey MiX, since you like my enigmatic questions so much, why do you think Uncleeurope and I were both more interested in e's LaLight read than his Robz read?

Because...no I have no idea. Is it something e said earlier in the day? Would have to reread...

Because LaLight is e's biggest counterwagon.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Errrr, I guess e was a counterwagon to LaLight at the time, whatever, you get the drift.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay, that partner read I had is screaming in my ears. I am becoming more curious about a Robz lynch.

[ashersky]

I’m caught up. I take back the plan comment, clearly not after all the continued discussion. If it had just disappeared poof style it would have seemed not genuine.

Shraeye is silly but not scummy, even though his vote on me is pointless and misguided. The ferengi thing wasn’t a plan so much as thought based on a misread.

I think raerae is a good day one lynch today — she’s ensured her only memorable interactions are with one (towny) player and hasn’t added any content otherwise.

vote: raerae anyone?

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

Vote: ash

I think this was pointed out, but I never claimed your lynch would be informative. I said it was a good lynch. You later said the only good lynch is an informative one (which I assume is hyperbole), which someone quickly rebutted.

And to answer an earlier question, it’s obviously shraeye that you tied yourself to.

[ashersky]

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

Robz said it better, but basically Robz doesn’t have to care that a bunch of people may want to lynch him. That’s his normal state of being, and it very rarely matters this early in a game. His non-reaction is completely normal, meaning there is no alignment indication to be drawn from it.

[ashersky]

I feel like Robz, LL, Jimm, and Ashes have all been similarly low level players and we wouldn't miss any of them at this point.  Any of them could be awesome later.  In fact, all of them would likely be awesome later. Jimmmm is/was mostly in trouble for sticking up for me, so I am not gonna vote for him today.  I am okay if all of you do, though.

Could you clarify what you mean by “low level” players?  I know I took a long break, so I can’t be sure what happened during that time, but even removing myself from that list to shave off bias, none of those players make a list of low level players were I to ever make one. They are all well-established, strong players who I think are well-liked and well-respected.

[WestCoastDidds]

I feel like Robz, LL, Jimm, and Ashes have all been similarly low level players and we wouldn't miss any of them at this point.  Any of them could be awesome later.  In fact, all of them would likely be awesome later. Jimmmm is/was mostly in trouble for sticking up for me, so I am not gonna vote for him today.  I am okay if all of you do, though.

Could you clarify what you mean by “low level” players?  I know I took a long break, so I can’t be sure what happened during that time, but even removing myself from that list to shave off bias, none of those players make a list of low level players were I to ever make one. They are all well-established, strong players who I think are well-liked and well-respected.

Low activity level in this game

[ashersky]

Gotcha. Makes more sense.

[WestCoastDidds]

Alright....I am gonna go make dinner and participate in life and stuff.  I'll check back in a few hours.

I hope that Joth and Glooble are having so much fun celebrating a new year of awesome.

Didds count 1.3

LaLight (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Robz888 (4): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, Uncleeurope
Jimmmmm (2): faust, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, , Awaclus
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan

No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

[Robz888]

I am going to be able to periodically check in for the rest of the night, I’m on eastern time. I will not be around to defend myself in the run up to deadline.

[Robz888]

If I have to move my vote i would like to know sooner rather than later. I really wish everyone would pick a main wagon.

[SpaceAnemone]

I've got my automatic vote counter working now, and agree with WCD's count

I also agree with the currently-edited state of all the mod counts except 1.1, which counted the number of "Not Voting" players incorrectly. (There are 10, but the count beside "Not Voting" says 9).

[Robz888]

I've got my automatic vote counter working now, and agree with WCD's count

I also agree with the currently-edited state of all the mod counts except 1.1, which counted the number of "Not Voting" players incorrectly. (There are 10, but the count beside "Not Voting" says 9).

Space, move your vote to someone who is actually getting lynched maybe.

[SpaceAnemone]

I've also done re-reads of the people on the "would vote for" list I posted earlier. I think e and Uncleeurope have been promoted to "not really interested in lynching". I'm really sleepy at this point, and this is way too late for me to be awake.

Jimmmmm -- really not much to go on. I like WCD's reason for leaving him off the table at the moment. I don't see anything that makes him a scumread as opposed to a nullread at this stage, though he's also pretty absent overall. Request prod on Jimmmmm.

DatSwan -- He starts out quite reasonable. I guess it's possible that his Gul setup discussion could have been faked to try to look like he was less aware of the setup than he is if he's scum and has thought about it hard. OTOH, he then discusses scum's best choices of NK with faust, and I think makes valid points, so it's clear he's done at least some setup-specific analysis. Actually, Ash made the point first, and Swan goes on to quote him. Back to that being null, I guess. I definitely disagree with his stance on the MiX issue, which seems to be asking the thread to willfully ignore that several players have been not okay with a thing that happened in-thread to the extent that they've voluntarily taken themselves away from the game for a period. I don't think any of that is alignment indicative for Swan, but unlike him, I care more about trying to ensure that the community stays as friendly and as inclusive as it has been than I do about the deadline.

Glooble -- Happy Birthday! (Also Happy Birthday Mod!) Anyway, Glooble has done way more posting than I remembered. There's a bunch of setup stuff that seems quite switched on, and then a bunch of prior probabilities of hitting scum for different scenarios. I did actually check his numbers when he posted that.. can't remember if I ever mentioned that in-thread. Not that I think scum!Glooble would try to mislead the thread with dodgy division even if there had been errors. His e reread post makes a good point about Robz's recent meta. I have a townish read on him early. Some of his later insistences about D1 lynches being random and pushing people being scummy are kind of block statements that gloss over a lot of nuance, but I don't think being not-quite-right with them is enough of a thing to constitute a scumread.

MiX -- I've made my case already, so no need to reread here.

2.71828..... -- I seem to agree with him more than usual, which was not what I expected going into my re-read. I think he's a player I often scumread, especially in games where he's loud and tries to control the game. But I agree with Robz being very much like RMM51, and on not wanting to have LL on the table for today.

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

Awaclus -- At least as scummy as he was in RMM51. Which was more "Awaclusian" than "scummy" per se. He's not doing much to help us scum-hunt, is he?

Uncleeurope -- Oh yeah, he claimed Gul Dukat, so let's not lynch him today.

Vote: Robz

PPE 1: Yup, I was already busy doing that :-)

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay, party people...its time for me to get off the computer and see about the sleeping and whatnot. This is where we are now:

Didds count 1.4

LaLight (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, Uncleeurope, SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): faust, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, Awaclus
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan

No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

Someone else feel free to take over the counting until Space is awake or Joth sobers up. : )

[Jimmmmm]

Responding to prod request. I think I'll be around at deadline.

[Chickenwarlord]

Vote Robbz

I guess it makes sense to throw my vote into the ring at this juncture. Robbz was my strongest scumread, and now that it is looking like we are converging for an actual lynch seems to have the most traction. If there is a big shift to Lalight I guess I could be persuaded, but I would much rather stick on this line.

[Chickenwarlord]

Vote: Robz888
Not sure how important the colon is for searching purposes, but I figured that actually using the correct name and format would help moderation.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Jimmmm

[Chickenwarlord]

Vote: Jimmmm

Are you moving your vote around to ensure that nobody gets lynched at this point. You seem to 'throw things out there', but at this point it just looks like you're trying to divide and play against any kind of united front.

[Uncleeurope]

Nope, just trying to make sure our options are open and an inevitability is avoided.

[Chickenwarlord]

Alright, I am going to try and get some rest. I will try to tune in later before the deadline should anyone make some serious moves.

[faust]

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

I really don't like this trying to create a scumread out of nothing. Robz is a lurker lynch, that's fine, but I don't think there is much of anything to scumread, and it reads like fake justification. I don't suppose we could get a Space wagon?

[Uncleeurope]

I would actually be fine with that.

[faust]

Let's do it.

Vote: Space

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Space

[Swowl]

I was wrong. I will not be here. I do not think Robz is particularly skummy but I do not want my vote to go to waste and I do not want to vote for Space.


Vote: Robz


It is 1230am my time. DL is at 5am my time. I have set an alarm for 445am.... but there is like a negative 5 percent chance I wake up.

[jotheonah]

Vote count 1.8

LaLight (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Robz888 (6): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, Awaclus
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
SpaceAnemone (2): faust, Uncleeurope

With 18 Alive it takes 10 to lynch most players. Deadline is at 8 am Forum Time, in 4 hours. I’ll be on an hour before.

[MiX]

Let's do it.

Vote: Space

What? I doubt this is happening...but I'm on board!

Vote: Space

Please treat as my vote being simultaneously on LL and Space, otherwise people will give up on LL and then Robz dies. Also, what happened to the Jimmmmmm wagon?

Quickvote over, time to read what happened while I was gone, and before anyone says "MiX is jumping on every wagon!", I always prefered a Space lynch, but doubted it would happen.

[ashersky]

Of the “large” wagons, I find the SA one the least bad.

[2.71828.....]

I will be around until deadline on and off (house cleaning day) and able to move around to help a lynch happen

[MiX]

Then why is he on your "would lynch" list???  Your reads are EVERYWHERE.  I'm inherently mistrustful of being on any lynch with you because you just keep jumping to the one gaining the most steam.  Frankly, it makes me what to vote for whoever you DON'T want to vote for.

Because I've seen nothing townie to come out of Robz. It's not a good lynch, but it's preferable over nothing (shraeye come at me), and we need a LOT of coordination if we are to actually hit scum, so I'm willing to provide it.

Space's reread isn't half bad, really. Puts down thoughts that I haven't seen before. They didn't have to do this, really. Don't like all the discussion about me and whatnot, but I know that Space would take that into consideration no matter the alignment, so it's null. faust's case is actually pretty sweet, but there wasn't a lot of support for a Space lynch (just me), so I doubt he's trying to redirect the lynch.

Well, let's test my own case. So I thought Space was scummy for a bunch of fluff and a terrible vote in a terrible case (I'm biased, but still); they changed that with the read list. That definitely makes sense for either alignment, town!Space wants to be productive and scum!Space wants to...be productive. Yeeeeah. At this point I'm willing to trust faust, but there's one thing I want to ask...

@faust, do you agree with my case on Space? And do you think Space's new activity weakens/strengthens it? I think your case is weak (weaker than my case on LL) without my part, do you agree? If yes/no, why?

The above can be answered by everyone, by the way.

[SpaceAnemone]

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

I really don't like this trying to create a scumread out of nothing. Robz is a lurker lynch, that's fine, but I don't think there is much of anything to scumread, and it reads like fake justification. I don't suppose we could get a Space wagon?

I was not really trying to present a sudden scumread on Robz at all. I explicitly said that I feel he's not playing like RMM51 (where he was scum).. I just don't think that's enough of a justification for not voting for him, given that I needed to move for consolidation. I also said (in the Glooble and e parts of my reread that you haven't quoted above) that I agree with a bunch of stuff e's said on Robz.

If you want to present a better case on someone then I'm here till deadline and willing to move if there's a stronger justification than what I've seen so far. That goes for cases on people other than on me.. I'm still not sure self-voting is ever a good thing for town.

[Glooble]

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

I really don't like this trying to create a scumread out of nothing. Robz is a lurker lynch, that's fine, but I don't think there is much of anything to scumread, and it reads like fake justification. I don't suppose we could get a Space wagon?

Robz was scum in RMM51 (I mean you know that, you modded it.) so Space saying his inactivity feels different from that game should be justification for Robz being town? But Space uses it before voting for Robz. I guess I don’t find this post scummy, just confusing. OTOH, they did say they were really sleepy which can explain fuzzy logic.

I don’t particularly want to lynch Space. But I’ve never actually played a game with town!Space, only “third party that was almost it not quite town-aligned!Space.” So I don’t know if anything is out of character for them. But I just reread everything Space has said today and I have no reason to think they are scum. And Space is a useful player to have around. They have a wagon analysis method that I don’t understand but apparently is helpful and mathy.

I’d rather a lurker lynch at this point tbh- could get behind LL, jimmmm, or Robz, in that order. Town Robz is very good later on but scum Robz is very scary later on and I believe won the last time this set-up was run(?) Don’t quote me on that I could be remembering wrong.

I don’t know what I do if the choice is Space or No Lynch. I suppose we’ll find out if we get to that point. We have 2 hours.

PPE 1

[Awaclus]

Vote: Robz

[Uncleeurope]

TheseBeTheVotes - Eddie Edition


LaLight (3): Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Robz888 (7): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX



Robz hit L-3

[Glooble]

Ugh, fine.

vote: Robz

[Uncleeurope]

L-2

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: Robz

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning! The question for the moment is why can't cats make coffee? Le sigh...

Robz at L-1?

[Awaclus]

Robz at L-1?

Assuming Eddie's vote count is correct, yes.

[Uncleeurope]

Good morning! The question for the moment is why can't cats make coffee? Le sigh...

Robz at L-1?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak

They make the most expensive coffee in the world.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space count up to #848

2.71828..... (1): LaLight
Robz888 (9): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
LaLight (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning! The question for the moment is why can't cats make coffee? Le sigh...

Robz at L-1?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_Luwak

They make the most expensive coffee in the world.

Eddie!  Noooooooooooo!  I want them to brew the coffee! Or go out and get me some coffee. Instead they are taking this moment of quite before 6 am when the house is quiet and everyone is asleep to engage in wrestlemania.

[Uncleeurope]

Well, if all the stragglers have no interest in grouping, and the Robz people have no interest in all trading off to someone else then we are all just going to stare at the screen until another hour starts to go by and someone hammers.

So anyone interested in killing Space?

[2.71828.....]

So anyone interested in killing Space?

Prefer Robz

[MiX]

Hmm. So that happened. L-1. Well it was bound to happen.

I don't think we can move enough people to either LL or Space anymore...which is unfortunate. 

Who's here? Me, e, Glooble, Awaclus, Space, Didds, Jimmmmm, Uncle, ashersky(?), faust, chicken. So we can lynch whoever we want, given the time. Okay, I need to reread Robz.

PPE 1: This reminds me, whoever makes the best case on Robz (or points to the best case on Robz (not e's)) gets the grand prize of me sheeping them. Go!

[2.71828.....]

Hmm. So that happened. L-1. Well it was bound to happen.

I don't think we can move enough people to either LL or Space anymore...which is unfortunate. 

Who's here? Me, e, Glooble, Awaclus, Space, Didds, Jimmmmm, Uncle, ashersky(?), faust, chicken. So we can lynch whoever we want, given the time. Okay, I need to reread Robz.

PPE 1: This reminds me, whoever makes the best case on Robz (or points to the best case on Robz (not e's)) gets the grand prize of me sheeping them. Go!

There is no real foolproof case on anyone today. I just prefer my Robz case to other not very good cases

[WestCoastDidds]

I am not interested in killing Space.

Whats with mcmc and Asher hanging out on raerae? That's annoying and not awesome.

[Glooble]

As I said, I would prefer LL or Jimmmm but Robz looked like it could actually happen. Also if we wait to hammer until right before deadline we run the risk of Robz being Morn and no lynch happening anyway.

[2.71828.....]

45 minutes left, right?

[jotheonah]

Vote count 1.9

LaLight (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Robz888 (9): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

With 18 alive it takes 10 to lynch most players. Deadline is at 8 am Forum Time, in 45 minutes.

[MiX]

As I said, I would prefer LL or Jimmmm but Robz looked like it could actually happen. Also if we wait to hammer until right before deadline we run the risk of Robz being Morn and no lynch happening anyway.

Crap. But Robz isn't here. Okay, let's do this, 2 people do intent to hammer, alright? Then they both vote! That is, if one votes, the other must vote.

From what I was reading, I think this is correct...

Intent to hammer

But I'm not finished rereading. Everyone agree with my 2 intent to hammer thing? I think it makes sense...

@joth, raerae has a vote too! And I think it's on Jimmmmmmmm but could be wrong.

[Awaclus]

Non-Robz lynches aren't realistically going to happen with 40 minutes left and 10 people required for the lynch to go through.

[jotheonah]

@joth, raerae has a vote too! And I think it's on Jimmmmmmmm but could be wrong.

Good catch. Fixed.

[Uncleeurope]

Non-Robz lynches aren't realistically going to happen with 40 minutes left and 10 people required for the lynch to go through.

But what if we believe with our heart of hearts and the power of will?

[Awaclus]

Non-Robz lynches aren't realistically going to happen with 40 minutes left and 10 people required for the lynch to go through.

But what if we believe with our heart of hearts and the power of will?

That's not going to magically make 10 people appear and agree with each other.

[ashersky]

vote: robz

[MiX]

Non-Robz lynches aren't realistically going to happen with 40 minutes left and 10 people required for the lynch to go through.

But what if we believe with our heart of hearts and the power of will?

Not even then, there's 10 people active, we would have to change pretty much everyone's mind...

Remember UoS's plan regarding Garak? Well, I like conditionals, so if I'm Garak and if I use bus drive N1, I'll target Uncle and faust.

Does this make sense? We can all do this, it's free information if the night goes wrong and it's essencially misdirection for scum, unless they know who Garak is with Odo, but they won't know that now, which means this is FOOLPROOF! Right?

PPE 1: Welp.

[ashersky]

First hammer in awhile.

Not the best lynch, but seemed to be the only lynch.

Looking forward to the “that was a scummy hammer” arguments tomorrow.

[ashersky]

In case I die, I like rr, mix for scum at this point.

If I had to bet any money on one player to be town, it’s LL.

[Glooble]

First hammer in awhile.

Not the best lynch, but seemed to be the only lynch.

Looking forward to the “that was a scummy hammer” arguments tomorrow.

That was a towny hammer from where I’m standing.

[jotheonah]

Final Vote Count 1.10

"We've found him, we've found the spy!" someone shouts in the midst of a commotion at Quark's Bar. "It was this kid who is always lurking around writing stuff down on his little PADD. He's got to be up to no good!"

Odo and his deputies flood the scene, dispersing the crowd and making arrests, but they're too late. There, in the middle of the crowd, is the body of Jake Sisko, head smashed in with a bottle of Kanaar someone's stolen from behind the bar.

Ironically, a message from the Federation News Service flashes up on all the screens around the promenade just moments later.

***FEDERATION NEWS SERVICE DISPATCH***

And now, an update on the developing story on Deep Space Nine. We at the FNS believe readers have a right to know their news is coming from reputable sources -- not from Changeling inflitrators, Maquis spies, or Mirror Universe doubles. So we have carefully vetted and tested our ace reporter Jake Sisko (Robz888). You can trust him. He's not a part of this war. He's just an innocent child.

Oops.

LaLight (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Robz888 (10): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

With 18 Alive it took 10 to lynch. Night 1 begins now and ends at 7:30 am forum time, Monday March 4th. That makes 7:30 pm forum time Sunday the night action deadline. Thread locked.

[jotheonah]

Reminder: night actions are due by 8 pm forum time. If you have no night actions, you don’t need to do anything. If you have a 1-shot, please post in your QT, even if you’re not planning to use your shot tonight.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.0

Whomever is infiltrating Deep Space Nine, they aren’t wasting any time. In the night, the two highest ranking officers on the station were killed.

Roleblocker Benjamin Sisko (mcmcsalot) barely had time to mourn the loss of his son. He was found dead in his quarters. Odo's investigation would show that someone poisoned his fresh ingredients. Luckily he was only cooking for one.

1-Shot Vigilante Kira Nerys (Jimmmmm) was apparently vaporized by a re-activated Cardassian security turret in the hallway outside her quarters.

Worf takes command of the station until Starfleet can send them a new CO. The Bajorans appoint Vedek Bareil as interim Bajoran Liaison Officer*. Acting Captain Worf orders an evacuation of non-essential personnel.

[/b]
*This is pure flavor and does not necessarily communicate which role the UB inherited.
 

Not voting (15): Shraeye, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, ashersky, raerae, LaLight, faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 begins now and ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th. Thread unlocked.

LaLight has left the game, but a replacement has been reached out to and will be posted when they officially confirm.

[faust]

Wow I'm still alive.

@joth: It would be a quality of life improvement if the roles that people had were revealed in the flip. Going back to the setup post is a bit tedious.

[MiX]

I'm alive D2! That's new.

Now that we're not at deadline I can adress all the things that have been said about me.

I won't lie and say that I didn't mean to say what I said. Instead, I'll acknowledge that I shouldn't have said it. I have no idea what I can do to make up for it other than apologize, as I can't really go back and not do that. So, Didds, I'm sorry. I'm also sorry to everyone because of the mess this created in the thread and it's definitly something that no one wants. If you have further things to say about this, say it now, I won't go over D1 to talk about everything there.

Also I hope I wasn't (part of) the reason LaLight left and he was just busy, which makes sense given what he did D1 anyway.

Okay, now...let's get down to business.

So we lynched literally the only role that couldn't get lynched, because anything else would mean UB inherited it, which would mean we would be left with the same roles PR wise. At least UB poses a really big threat to scum with 2 powerful PRs, but yeah, we lost 2 really good PRs.

e's obviously a really obvious person to scumread seeing as he single-handidly got Robz lynched (let's be honest, he did, he was really persuasive) and I think it's easier for scum to pull so many people to their wagon of choice since they have 2 guaranteed people supporting them.

Still scumreading Space for what they did D1, nothing changed there.

Anyone have Really Important Night Actions they want to claim? Otherwise let's just talk about what happened with the votes near deadline, I wrote them down but haven't analyzed them yet...


Oh, and obvious "yeah I knew Robz wagon was bad!" comment that means nothing.

PPE 1: Not first again Also I agree

[faust]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

[WestCoastDidds]

To make life easier:

Captain Benjamin Sisko -- roleblocker (Mcmcsalot)
Major Kira Nerys -- 1-shot vigilante (if town)/1-shot bulletproof (if scum) (Jimmmmm)

[WestCoastDidds]

Whoops, sorry...Joth went and added it.  (Thank you!)

[faust]

Since I did not see this answered anywhere...

If a scum UB inherits Kira Nerys's role, will they be 1-shot Vig or 1-shot BP?

[2.71828.....]

I am alive D2!

All the cool people seemed to be celebrating.

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

[WestCoastDidds]

MiX, thank you for the apology. We're good.  Onward!

[MiX]

I am alive D2!

All the cool people seemed to be celebrating.

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

I feel like the correct move is to vote for you right now.

Tell me, how do you think Robz's wagon got so big?

PPE 1: Thank you for your forgiveness.

[faust]

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

It's true that Robz misplayed, but that doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of having misread him.

[Glooble]

Forgive me if this was already answered, but what would happen if scum inherited the IC role?

[jotheonah]

Forgive me if this was already answered, but what would happen if scum inherited the IC role?

Can't happen, because IC is unheritable for exactly that reason. UB inherited Kira or Sisko's power, chosen at random and revealed to the UB and to no one else.

Since I did not see this answered anywhere...

If a scum UB inherits Kira Nerys's role, will they be 1-shot Vig or 1-shot BP?

This has been previously answered, but got left out of the additions in the setup post. UB would inherit 1-shot vig, regardless of UB's alignment. A scum vigilante would get an additional nightkill one night.

[jotheonah]

EFHW has replaced LaLight!

[Glooble]

LaLight (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Robz888 (10): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

Okay, Glooble's wagon recap/analysis, take one.

e started the Robz wagon and pushed it hard. Isn't scum!e more subtle then that? The boldness with which he defended his read, even though it was wrong, makes me actually think he's town.

Uncleeurope then votes for Robz, though he later unvotes. Didds is the next Robz vote. She doesn't offer much explanation- she later switches to LL, then back to Robz, saying she's just committed to a lynch- fair, I was too. It's weird, though, that at the point when she says this the only one voting for Robz is e.

UoS gets on the wagon next, saying nothing more substantial about the decision than "Baaaaaaah", then UncleEurope again- he's really on and off this wagon. Not sure that's scummy but it's worth noting.

Space votes Robz next, after posting a reads list. I'm gonna quote part of it because I found it a little weird:

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

So they're saying he's not acting like he did when he was scum, which seems like a reason not to vote for him, but then she does vote for him. Also worth noting that this is the vote that tips the Robz wagon from the same size as the LL wagon to the biggest wagon.

Chickenwarlord jumps on next. Expresses a scumread on Robz. I'd like to hear more about that, since most of the people on the wagon seem to be just trying to get a lynch, any lynch.

UncleEurope immediately jumps off the wagon again. Wants to keep our options open.

Datswan votes for Robz because he doesn't want his vote to go to waste and he doesn't want to lynch Space.

Awaclus jumps on.

I don't want to lynch Space either and it's looking unlikely anything else is going to pick up steam so I jump on too.

Jimmmm puts Robz to L-1.

MiX expresses intent to hammer, in response to my reminder that Robz could be loved and if we wait until the last second we might not get a lynch.

Ashersky actually hammers.

tl;dr- I don't think the people at the end of this wagon are as scummy as the people who made it the wagon. Don't get me wrong, people at the end of the wagon could still be scum, the need to get a lynch is good cover. But I would bet there's scum somewhere in UoS, Space, chicken, and maybe DatSwan. Those were the people who had the opportunity, realistically, to steer the lynch elsewhere.

I'm a little suspicious of Didds now. Her explanation for voting Robz doesn't make much sense on the surface. Here:

vote: Robz

I am committeed to a lynch.  I am willing to vote for LL, Robz, or Asher.  I won't vote for Jimmmm today.

Like, if you're committed to a lynch, why not stay on LaLight at that point? Why leave a viable wagon for one with one other person on it.

Also Uncle Europe was on and off and on and off the wagon like a lot, so make what you will of that.

Hopefully this is helpful to somebody.

[MiX]

Hi EFHW, happy to play with you, as long as you don't imply that I'm a good lynch without voting over and over like last time 

By the way, the wagon on LL was due to his non-activity, which obviously doesn't apply anymore, so don't worry about it.

PPE 1: didn't read it all but I agree with didds being suspicious, her vote was reeeeally weird

[MiX]

Space [...] she

Uhoh. Quick, ninja edit! Oh you can't.

That Space part is actually really weird and I want an explanation. In fact, that's good enough to

Vote: Space

Am I going too fast? Mobile, haven't done any VCA yet

[Glooble]

Space [...] she

Uhoh. Quick, ninja edit! Oh you can't.

Sorry Space.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space votes Robz next, after posting a reads list. I'm gonna quote part of it because I found it a little weird:

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

So they're saying he's not acting like he did when he was scum, which seems like a reason not to vote for him, but then she does vote for him. Also worth noting that this is the vote that tips the Robz wagon from the same size as the LL wagon to the biggest wagon.

I already addressed this before the end of D1 when faust was confused about my post:

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

I really don't like this trying to create a scumread out of nothing. Robz is a lurker lynch, that's fine, but I don't think there is much of anything to scumread, and it reads like fake justification. I don't suppose we could get a Space wagon?

I was not really trying to present a sudden scumread on Robz at all. I explicitly said that I feel he's not playing like RMM51 (where he was scum).. I just don't think that's enough of a justification for not voting for him, given that I needed to move for consolidation. I also said (in the Glooble and e parts of my reread that you haven't quoted above) that I agree with a bunch of stuff e's said on Robz.

If you want to present a better case on someone then I'm here till deadline and willing to move if there's a stronger justification than what I've seen so far. That goes for cases on people other than on me.. I'm still not sure self-voting is ever a good thing for town.

Recall that I'd already said I wasn't willing to vote for LL. He'd had good reason for his absences (flat-moving), and also he'd also engaged with the community stuff, which I really appreciated from him, so I didn't want to see him gone from the game.

That said, bye LL :-(

Welcome, EFHW :-)

[WestCoastDidds]

didn't read it all but I agree with didds being suspicious, her vote was reeeeally weird

Not weird, just not good. Pretty much all of my choices were related low inactivity, and were obvi wrong. Robz should have claimed, there was plenty of time for us to find a better lynch had he didn’t so. But I will fully admit that I was just trying to be helpful. I left LL when enough folks said it wasn’t fair to lynch him with no internet access, etc, so while I’m on Robz early it’s because he seemed viable based on the talk even if it wants yet about votes. And I wasn’t moving to Jimmm.

Glooble, thanks for the work.

Vote: Eddie because that jumping around is crazy more strange than not.

LL, you’ll be missed. Hey, EFHW! Thanks for joining.

[WestCoastDidds]

Low activity, rather. Or inactivity. But not low inactivity.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space [...] she

Uhoh. Quick, ninja edit! Oh you can't.

Sorry Space.

No worries! I'm okay with "she/her" as a pronoun as long as people don't start calling me "girl" or "lady" or something.

What I strongly object to is the "default he" assumption that masculine is "normal" and anything else requires explanation/justification.

[MiX]

Space votes Robz next, after posting a reads list. I'm gonna quote part of it because I found it a little weird:

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

So they're saying he's not acting like he did when he was scum, which seems like a reason not to vote for him, but then she does vote for him. Also worth noting that this is the vote that tips the Robz wagon from the same size as the LL wagon to the biggest wagon.

I already addressed this before the end of D1 when faust was confused about my post:

"I also said (in the Glooble and e parts of my reread that you haven't quoted above) that I agree with a bunch of stuff e's said on Robz." - Space

Okay, okay.

I think I found a contradiction: look at Space's readlist, specifically the Glooble part. They say this:

"His e reread post makes a good point about Robz's recent meta"

Now...look at Glooble's e reread post...all I could find about Robz is:

"No he's not, he played exactly like this day one in Ancillary Mafia and he was scum." (talking about Robz)

Now, Ancillary mafia is RMM51, right? Which means Glooble's scumread on Robz - and, thus, everything about Robz in his e reread post - is about Robz playing like RMM51. But then Space goes:

"Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51"

So clearly Glooble's part isn't part of her scumread on Robz, because all they say about Robz is how they agree with Glooble, but then they say the opposite in Robz' part...

So let's go to e's part of Space's reread: the important section is (apart from Space saying Robz looks like RMM51 again):

"I seem to agree with him more than usual, which was not what I expected going into my re-read."

So, you can argue that this implies that Space agrees with e's scumread on Robz. But it's far from explicit, especially when Space unsaid what they had agreed with twice in Robz' part (aka, they agreed with both Glooble and e about Robz playing like RMM51 but then they took it back); it's reasonable to assume Space didn't agree with the rest of e's case after rereading Robz, right? But then:

"I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either"

And this, this right here, is Space's case on Robz. Which is not at all what they told faust, but it's really the only thing you can take away from this post after the analysis I did.

Thus Space's reasoning for voting actually doesn't make sense, because they never explicitly said they agreed with e's case, instead they compared this game to RMM51, came to a conclusion and voted the other way.

TL;DR: Space's initial vote and their explanation have shady, unclear reasoning. What does this mean? No idea. But it feels like a cheap way to sheep e using a lot of words, so it's scummy.

@Space, how do you respond to this? Oh, and yes, I know it's confusing...I'll get quotes if people ask for it, on mobile ATM

[Uncleeurope]

As I said previously, I always jump around a lot as town and then get called scum for doing so. I refuse to accept inevitabilities and think it is much more informative if people treat days as if multiple options exist rather than it being an inevitability that someone will be lynched. Treating things as if they are inevitable is a strong play for scum to mislynch without fear.

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

Vote: Space

[MiX]

As I said previously, I always jump around a lot as town and then get called scum for doing so. I refuse to accept inevitabilities and think it is much more informative if people treat days as if multiple options exist rather than it being an inevitability that someone will be lynched. Treating things as if they are inevitable is a strong play for scum to mislynch without fear.

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

Vote: Space

What's your case on LL? I believe everything that was scummy about them fits with not being active enough to even play...like the read list, makes perfect sense when you consider than LL didn't read very closely and probably didn't have a lot of time to think about things.

The rest are fine, but I have a feeling e needs to be there, just because of how he NEVER moved from Robz, ever ever ever, even when LL and Space wagons were being viable...

Also, we can lynch you now! I think you became much townier near the end of the day, so I don't want to kill you...yet.

[SpaceAnemone]

@MiX, my post might make more sense if you read it as several spaced-out chronological re-reads, because that's the way I wrote it. I did all the separate re-reads (which took a while; I'm a really slow reader), then added the vote, then went back and put a sentence at the top to help the rest of the thread make sense of it, and then the last thing to be added was the PPE.

Anyway, first I re-read Glooble, which reminded me that e had said something I agreed with, because Glooble had done an e re-read post earlier.

Then I re-read e, and found that my sense of the game agreed with what he was saying, including that I thought Robz's absence was quite similar to scum!Robz being very absent from the start of RMM51.

Only then did I re-read Robz, and kind of disagree with myself, hence the "Actually..." part.

The Robz re-read didn't give me anything to make me think he was town, and e, with whom I agreed on a bunch of stuff, was pretty sure he was scum, so I don't think he was a bad selection from my personal lynchpool given the information I had around at the time. Obviously not the best lynch in retrospect, so apologies for my part in the wagon.

Ah.. I have to take off for a few hours right now. Back later if there are any more questions on it!

[MiX]

@MiX, my post might make more sense if you read it as several spaced-out chronological re-reads

Yes, I realized that you did them in order, otherwise the RMM51 thing wouldn't make any sense. But it really looked like you were taking back the scumread from Robz. I did admit that you might've just been sheeping e's case, but it's not what you said on the read post. It just feels like you were sheeping e's case while being against part of it, which is weird...especially when you don't say "I agree with e's case on Robz" or anything like "I'm sheeping e's vote on Robz", just vague "I agree with e".

Question to everyone: what's Space's scummeta? I have a feeling this case can suddently flip into a townread, I just need to know what's their meta...

@Space, what were your scumreads at the time? How about now?


Now something unrelated: @chicken, why, exactly, did you scumread Robz? Did you ever say that? I don't see it...

Okay, time to do productive things! Let's see what conf!town had to say about D1...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The rest are fine, but I have a feeling e needs to be there, just because of how he NEVER moved from Robz, ever ever ever, even when LL and Space wagons were being viable...

Why do you think this is scummy?

[MiX]

The rest are fine, but I have a feeling e needs to be there, just because of how he NEVER moved from Robz, ever ever ever, even when LL and Space wagons were being viable...

Why do you think this is scummy?

Mostly because his stubborness worked. I assume scum can make wagons push harder since they have 3 votes instead of 1, e pushing Robz all day and succeding might've been due to that. It's incredibly weak but at least it's based on evidence. I'm been procrastinating so I haven't done any (after N1 flips) rereading...sorry about that.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I assume scum can make wagons push harder since they have 3 votes instead of 1, e pushing Robz all day and succeding might've been due to that. It's incredibly weak but at least it's based on evidence.

What's the evidence?

[MiX]

I assume scum can make wagons push harder since they have 3 votes instead of 1, e pushing Robz all day and succeding might've been due to that. It's incredibly weak but at least it's based on evidence.

What's the evidence?

The votes.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The votes are evidence of scum?

Or just evidence of votes existing?

Is this different than me quoting a post of Ash's and saying "look, he uses 2 commas here, so he's more likely to be scum than average."

I have evidence, I can point at the quote and all those commas. How is this different?

[MiX]

The votes are evidence of scum?

Or just evidence of votes existing?

Is this different than me quoting a post of Ash's and saying "look, he uses 2 commas here, so he's more likely to be scum than average."

I have evidence, I can point at the quote and all those commas. How is this different?

Okay, fine, I'll try to not be confusing for once.

I said that e shouldn't be put off the initial scummy table because of his predominance in the wagon. I'm not saying e's scum, in fact, I'm not sure he's scummy, but it's definitly something we need to look at. "based on evidence" means it's not just gut reads, it's bound to the votes, and you can't change those: they exist regardless of each player's metas.

Quoting a post like that has a premise: that ash uses 2 commas more as scum. This has no relevence to the game, as ash could very simply change that meta on the fly. "Quoting" or using votes like I did has another premise: that e would be on Robz all day because he's scum. But it also has "scum would help other scum push the wagon they want", and you can't deny this, it's not based on e's meta in any way.

Now that I say this, it looks ridiculous...why would scum care about lynching Robz and not LL or Space? There's some WIFOM reasons but...okay this is stupid.

Well, that means I'll just stick with my null/towny (don't wanna say it) read on e. Thanks!

(This post is awkward. I haven't paid enough attention to this game this day...)

[EFHW]

Hi, Still catching up.  I love DS9. It doesn't get the attention it deserves.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

"based on evidence" means it's not just gut reads, it's bound to the votes, and you can't change those: they exist regardless of each player's metas.

So does Ashersky's commas.

Quoting a post like that has a premise: that ash uses 2 commas more as scum. This has no relevence to the game.... using votes like I did has another premise: that e would be on Robz all day because he's scum. But it also has "scum would help other scum push the wagon they want", and you can't deny this, it's not based on e's meta in any way.

That's the whole reason I'm using this as an example. What's your evidence that scum!e is more likely to be on Robz than town!e? Because you are making that assertion and claiming it's backed by evidence, but the evidence is just that that's what happened in the game.

What's the evidence that scum particularly wanted a Robz wagon?

Now that I say this, it looks ridiculous...why would scum care about lynching Robz and not LL or Space? There's some WIFOM reasons but...okay this is stupid.

Well, that means I'll just stick with my null/towny (don't wanna say it) read on e. Thanks!

(This post is awkward. I haven't paid enough attention to this game this day...)

Yes, this is where I was going. And I don't feel like deleting my stuff I already typed either. So fine. Awkwardbros.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

EBWOP: So do Ashersky's commas.

What is wrong with me?

[MiX]

Progress! I was rereading raerae, when I found this...

Robz, can't defend against that, I really haven't done much this game, it's big and intimidating and most of the conversation has been setup so I commented when I had something to say but was definitely content to sit back and wait until it progressed to something I can chime in on. Like today. This is the stuff I get and so I'm talking now.

But she meant to reply to me. Is this useful?

Anyway, she spends D1 interacting with shraeye, me and a little bit of faust. Or at least most of what she said was to or about one of these 3 players...In M121 she also did that, but much, much less (she still interacted more with me and shraeye but more with other players, relatively). So...@raerae, was this intentional?

Rereading takes so much effort...with all of this I basically determined raerae did nothing D1 other than talk to 3 people. Great. Is this towny or scummy? I'm leaning on the scummy side, but I don't know...

What is scummy is her complete lack of reads, she was only voting because faust "convinced" her, which means she doesn't even need to explain why her vote was there (not like I blame people finding Jimmmmmmmmm scummy, since I did). Unless you count her ash vote, which was the only thing she did out of her own initiative (at least from what I'm seeing) which is...sheeping shraeye and OMGUS. It's not looking good for her, I think I like this case more than the one I made for Space. At least she admits it? But then she just sheeps faust.

@raerae, what was your reason to vote Jimmmmmm?

Well, Vote: raerae because I feel like I'm being unfair to Space...but FoS: Space for, well, what I said before.

Is there anything setup related that's good to discuss now? I was going to bring up things related to the IC but...yeah. So not sure what to say. I've asked my share of questions and reread my share of rereads, I'll lay low for now.

[raerae]

Progress! I was rereading raerae, when I found this...

Robz, can't defend against that, I really haven't done much this game, it's big and intimidating and most of the conversation has been setup so I commented when I had something to say but was definitely content to sit back and wait until it progressed to something I can chime in on. Like today. This is the stuff I get and so I'm talking now.

But she meant to reply to me. Is this useful?

Anyway, she spends D1 interacting with shraeye, me and a little bit of faust. Or at least most of what she said was to or about one of these 3 players...In M121 she also did that, but much, much less (she still interacted more with me and shraeye but more with other players, relatively). So...@raerae, was this intentional?

Rereading takes so much effort...with all of this I basically determined raerae did nothing D1 other than talk to 3 people. Great. Is this towny or scummy? I'm leaning on the scummy side, but I don't know...

What is scummy is her complete lack of reads, she was only voting because faust "convinced" her, which means she doesn't even need to explain why her vote was there (not like I blame people finding Jimmmmmmmmm scummy, since I did). Unless you count her ash vote, which was the only thing she did out of her own initiative (at least from what I'm seeing) which is...sheeping shraeye and OMGUS. It's not looking good for her, I think I like this case more than the one I made for Space. At least she admits it? But then she just sheeps faust.

@raerae, what was your reason to vote Jimmmmmm?

Well, Vote: raerae because I feel like I'm being unfair to Space...but FoS: Space for, well, what I said before.

Is there anything setup related that's good to discuss now? I was going to bring up things related to the IC but...yeah. So not sure what to say. I've asked my share of questions and reread my share of rereads, I'll lay low for now.

What do you mean I meant to reply to you?  I was responding to Robz, that's why I said "Robz."  Also, it was D1 in an 18 player game and I very clearly said I had no reasonable reads.  Why are you trying to make this out like something I was trying to hide or minimize?  Also, when did I sheep shraeye?  And my vote on Ash wasn't OMGUS, I think his reason for voting for me was scummy as hell and made no sense.  Basically everything in your "case" is wrong, are you just hoping people will trust you and won't reread or did you really accidentally get that much stuff wrong?

[Uncleeurope]

Hoping people don’t reread is rarely going to be a scum!plan, so I would imagine that isn’t the driving force there...

You were very “go with the flow” yesterday as a whole and we have to determine if that is indicative of alignment or not. And while your defense was heard, it doesn’t change my opinions of the actions fully.

[raerae]

Hoping people don’t reread is rarely going to be a scum!plan, so I would imagine that isn’t the driving force there...

You were very “go with the flow” yesterday as a whole and we have to determine if that is indicative of alignment or not. And while your defense was heard, it doesn’t change my opinions of the actions fully.

So MiX is town because he's wrong?

[MiX]

What Robz post were you replying to? I...didn't find it. In fact, it doesn't exist. I am as confused as you are...you're clearly replying to this:

I do see one for raerae, just because she's not doing much, and I remember her doing a LOT more in M121, am I wrong? I don't think I am...but this could very well be null, I don't know...

You even say "I really haven't done much this game" which is a direct quote from this. I don't know what to make of this blatant mistake and I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

About no reads...you seemed to have more reads in M121, particularly you were scumreading me and shraeye through D1 (and that's all I can truly remember of you that game...), here you're not too committed to any read. But I have to admit, you have townreads, so the problem is just on scumreads.

You were sheeping shraeye when you voted for ash, right? Let me look at it again...

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

So, okay, you weren't sheeping shraeye...but who else was on him? And this is definitely OMGUS, your vote is entirely dependant on knowing that you're town, lynching someone who doesn't have a lot of interactions isn't scummy, it's just necessary sometimes. But we went over this in D1...and you didn't address it. Well I think you lost your scumread on ash, but you didn't say why, not like it matters.

Did you just ignore my question at the end? What was your reason to vote Jimmmmmmm?

That post was weird. You're being weird. I'm not as wrong as you say I am...so why all the defensiveness? Well, time for your rebutal.

[raerae]

I can't quote all this shit, here's the post I was replying to, we're both wrong, I should have said mcmc, you know, Robz' brother.  His was post #673, mine was #675, yours was #653 so no, it isn't clear I was replying to you by using a name you aren't associated with 25 posts later.

So me saying I haven't done that much this game is a mistake?  But isn't that why you're voting for me?

Re: M121, entirely different game, fewer players, far less setup speculation, it was easier for me to jump back into playing that because we were mostly just bullshitting.  Plus, I hadn't just led town to their demise so I was more optimistic about my abilities. 

re:sheeping shraeye and my ash vote, how can I be both sheeping and OMGUSing?  I'm OMGUSing on behalf of a shraeye, I'm agreeing with shraeye's OMGUS?  Dude, I hope you warmed up because you are stretching so hard right now it's insane.  Also, don't, I can't say this strongly enough, if I say something is or isn't OMGUS (or anything else for that matter), you don't fucking get to rename it so it fits your narrative better.  You don't get to decide my feelings on a subject for me.

I missed your question about Jimmmmm, I don't know why it's even a question though, I sold my vote to faust who told me to vote Jimmmmm.  His case wasn't terrible so I agreed to the deal.  This is public knowledge, why are you confused?

[SpaceAnemone]

@Space, what were your scumreads at the time? How about now?

I felt your content was the most scummy at the time, and didn't really have scumreads on anyone else, but I did manage to stratify the playerlist to include a set I was willing to lynch.

Now, little has changed, though I'm more ready to examine the other new-to-me players: shraeye, raerae, and Chicken. I don't think I've played with Eddie before either. I didn't even do any re-reads in the night to form better reads, but I did skim-read the whole of drunk mafia. I couldn't tell you a thing about the actual games, but it was interesting for the player insights.

[MiX]

I can't quote all this shit, here's the post I was replying to, we're both wrong, I should have said mcmc, you know, Robz' brother.  His was post #673, mine was #675, yours was #653 so no, it isn't clear I was replying to you by using a name you aren't associated with 25 posts later.

So me saying I haven't done that much this game is a mistake?  But isn't that why you're voting for me?

Re: M121, entirely different game, fewer players, far less setup speculation, it was easier for me to jump back into playing that because we were mostly just bullshitting.  Plus, I hadn't just led town to their demise so I was more optimistic about my abilities. 

re:sheeping shraeye and my ash vote, how can I be both sheeping and OMGUSing?  I'm OMGUSing on behalf of a shraeye, I'm agreeing with shraeye's OMGUS?  Dude, I hope you warmed up because you are stretching so hard right now it's insane.  Also, don't, I can't say this strongly enough, if I say something is or isn't OMGUS (or anything else for that matter), you don't fucking get to rename it so it fits your narrative better.  You don't get to decide my feelings on a subject for me.

I missed your question about Jimmmmm, I don't know why it's even a question though, I sold my vote to faust who told me to vote Jimmmmm.  His case wasn't terrible so I agreed to the deal.  This is public knowledge, why are you confused?

Ha. I have to admit I didn't look for whatever post you where refering to, I just found a good non-Robz that I remembered (because I wrote it). Well that's awkward.

About M121...okay? Different game makes sense? But I don't know, I had my share of completely misreading every player there...of course it didn't matter as much as your reads, but, yeah; and all I want to do is read even more players, in case I actually get it right. Shouldn't excuse you for D1, but fine...that whole post is a pretty big reaction that can hopefully be used later, so I don't need to push you more.

It's not really sheeping as it is going to a wagon where shraeye was, since shraeye was pretty towny it would be reasonable to expect it to grow. Your reason to vote ash was discredited by mcmc a few posts later, but you didn't talk about it or move immediatly; you did, however, look for alternatives (that is, you wanted to vote for Jimmmmmmm).

I don't see why you would have to be honest with your reason to vote for people if you're scum, thus I see no reason to believe if a vote was OMGUS or not based on what you say. Right? Am I being confusing here? Not that you gain anything by lying, but you're always lying when voting as scum anyway and this is no different.

As for Jimmmmmm, why did you sell your vote to faust? Why not e, me, shraeye, I don't know, anyone else? And did you simply sheep his case or did you see anything else that was scummy? That's the answer I wanted, "why did you vote for Jimmmmm" is a good catch-all question for that, I think.

I hope this back-to-back posting gives information about me and raerae? I'll read what raerae said here critically later, I have to sleep now

PPE 1: I have no idea what happened in drunk mafia...so tired...

[SpaceAnemone]

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

This is also exactly the set of players who admitted to having been bothered by the conflict discussion yesterday. Have you considered whether you might be reading conflict aversion or other non-masculine behaviours as scummy given that you yourself might be looking at the game from a slightly more masculine perspective?

Now that EFHW has replaced LL, I think there are more non-males playing now than in any other f.ds mafia game I've seen.

[raerae]

I can't quote all this shit, here's the post I was replying to, we're both wrong, I should have said mcmc, you know, Robz' brother.  His was post #673, mine was #675, yours was #653 so no, it isn't clear I was replying to you by using a name you aren't associated with 25 posts later.

So me saying I haven't done that much this game is a mistake?  But isn't that why you're voting for me?

Re: M121, entirely different game, fewer players, far less setup speculation, it was easier for me to jump back into playing that because we were mostly just bullshitting.  Plus, I hadn't just led town to their demise so I was more optimistic about my abilities. 

re:sheeping shraeye and my ash vote, how can I be both sheeping and OMGUSing?  I'm OMGUSing on behalf of a shraeye, I'm agreeing with shraeye's OMGUS?  Dude, I hope you warmed up because you are stretching so hard right now it's insane.  Also, don't, I can't say this strongly enough, if I say something is or isn't OMGUS (or anything else for that matter), you don't fucking get to rename it so it fits your narrative better.  You don't get to decide my feelings on a subject for me.

I missed your question about Jimmmmm, I don't know why it's even a question though, I sold my vote to faust who told me to vote Jimmmmm.  His case wasn't terrible so I agreed to the deal.  This is public knowledge, why are you confused?

Ha. I have to admit I didn't look for whatever post you where refering to, I just found a good non-Robz that I remembered (because I wrote it). Well that's awkward.

I haven't even read the rest of this post,

Vote: MiX

blatantly lying to influence town is the literal definition of scum.

[WestCoastDidds]

Now that EFHW has replaced LL, I think there are more non-males playing now than in any other f.ds mafia game I've seen.

Hooray, EFHW!  Four of us feels like some kind of achievement! And speaks well of the forum generally. Thanks, y'all!

[Uncleeurope]

Hoping people don’t reread is rarely going to be a scum!plan, so I would imagine that isn’t the driving force there...

You were very “go with the flow” yesterday as a whole and we have to determine if that is indicative of alignment or not. And while your defense was heard, it doesn’t change my opinions of the actions fully.

So MiX is town because he's wrong?

MiX isn’t scum because he is trying to make people forget to reread. Or hoping people won’t.

Seemed like a weird accusation. He could still be scum, but that isn’t a scummy behavior to base a case on.

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

This is also exactly the set of players who admitted to having been bothered by the conflict discussion yesterday. Have you considered whether you might be reading conflict aversion or other non-masculine behaviours as scummy given that you yourself might be looking at the game from a slightly more masculine perspective?

Now that EFHW has replaced LL, I think there are more non-males playing now than in any other f.ds mafia game I've seen.

I don’t really know what you mean, you may be viewing this game using masculine/feminine, but I am not. I am basing my reads on activity and content. Implying that I lack empathy/discernment helps nothing.

I have to say that I am not enjoying this game at the moment. If this becomes the theme for the rest of the game, then I want out, I am not practiced enough at looking at the world in this mindset to be able to continue as is.

[raerae]

I can't quote all this shit, here's the post I was replying to, we're both wrong, I should have said mcmc, you know, Robz' brother.  His was post #673, mine was #675, yours was #653 so no, it isn't clear I was replying to you by using a name you aren't associated with 25 posts later.

So me saying I haven't done that much this game is a mistake?  But isn't that why you're voting for me?

Re: M121, entirely different game, fewer players, far less setup speculation, it was easier for me to jump back into playing that because we were mostly just bullshitting.  Plus, I hadn't just led town to their demise so I was more optimistic about my abilities. 

re:sheeping shraeye and my ash vote, how can I be both sheeping and OMGUSing?  I'm OMGUSing on behalf of a shraeye, I'm agreeing with shraeye's OMGUS?  Dude, I hope you warmed up because you are stretching so hard right now it's insane.  Also, don't, I can't say this strongly enough, if I say something is or isn't OMGUS (or anything else for that matter), you don't fucking get to rename it so it fits your narrative better.  You don't get to decide my feelings on a subject for me.

I missed your question about Jimmmmm, I don't know why it's even a question though, I sold my vote to faust who told me to vote Jimmmmm.  His case wasn't terrible so I agreed to the deal.  This is public knowledge, why are you confused?

Ha. I have to admit I didn't look for whatever post you where refering to, I just found a good non-Robz that I remembered (because I wrote it). Well that's awkward.

About M121...okay? Different game makes sense? But I don't know, I had my share of completely misreading every player there...of course it didn't matter as much as your reads, but, yeah; and all I want to do is read even more players, in case I actually get it right. Shouldn't excuse you for D1, but fine...that whole post is a pretty big reaction that can hopefully be used later, so I don't need to push you more.

It's not really sheeping as it is going to a wagon where shraeye was, since shraeye was pretty towny it would be reasonable to expect it to grow. Your reason to vote ash was discredited by mcmc a few posts later, but you didn't talk about it or move immediatly; you did, however, look for alternatives (that is, you wanted to vote for Jimmmmmmm).

I don't see why you would have to be honest with your reason to vote for people if you're scum, thus I see no reason to believe if a vote was OMGUS or not based on what you say. Right? Am I being confusing here? Not that you gain anything by lying, but you're always lying when voting as scum anyway and this is no different.

As for Jimmmmmm, why did you sell your vote to faust? Why not e, me, shraeye, I don't know, anyone else? And did you simply sheep his case or did you see anything else that was scummy? That's the answer I wanted, "why did you vote for Jimmmmm" is a good catch-all question for that, I think.

I hope this back-to-back posting gives information about me and raerae? I'll read what raerae said here critically later, I have to sleep now

PPE 1: I have no idea what happened in drunk mafia...so tired...

Okay, actually read the whole thing, I'll address the three bolded points and then I'm all sorts of done with this.  If anybody else wants to engage, I'd be happy to talk.


1) Discredited??  My OPINION on scummy behavior isn't any less valid than his.  Facts can be discredited but opinions are just feelings with a different name and you don't get to tell somebody their feelings aren't valid.  mcmc isn't right because he believes it isn't scummy and I'm not right because I do, we just feel differently about the subject.  I still see ash's reasons for voting for me as scummy but mcmc and faust (two players I respect and who have significant game experience, and one who's conf!town) don't so I am willing to accept that it may not be as scummy as it looks to me.  I'm willing to recognize that somebody else's feelings are valid.

2) My problem isn't with you disbelieving me when I say it wasn't OMGUS (this is Mafia, disbelief is to be expected, I get it), it's with you TELLING me that my stated reason for voting wasn't my stated reason for voting.  It's you telling me you know more about what I was thinking and how I feel than I do.  Because you don't.  Flat out.  You can say, "I don't believe you," but you never get to fucking tell me, "No, it was X because I say so." 

3) Nobody else made an offer.  I sold to literally the only person bidding. 

[EFHW]

I've been reading for over an hour, still only at 661. Tomorrow I'll skip ahead to eod1 and catch up on day 2.

[shraeye]

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

It's true that Robz misplayed, but that doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of having misread him.

That's true, but now we need to sort people into "misread Robz", versus

I will literally vote for anyone as deadline approaches to get a lynch through

versus scummy opportunism.

I know, e expressed a scumread on Robz, so I'm putting him in the first category.  He could be scum, but his vote was based on a read and not #alwayslynch or pure opportunism.  Honestly I'm just still steaming that #alwayslynch is everybody's default. 

[shraeye]

Chickenwarlord jumps on next. Expresses a scumread on Robz. I'd like to hear more about that, since most of the people on the wagon seem to be just trying to get a lynch, any lynch.

tl;dr- I don't think the people at the end of this wagon are as scummy as the people who made it the wagon. Don't get me wrong, people at the end of the wagon could still be scum, the need to get a lynch is good cover. But I would bet there's scum somewhere in UoS, Space, chicken, and maybe DatSwan. Those were the people who had the opportunity, realistically, to steer the lynch elsewhere.

I'm a little suspicious of Didds now. Her explanation for voting Robz doesn't make much sense on the surface. Here:

vote: Robz

I am committeed to a lynch.  I am willing to vote for LL, Robz, or Asher.  I won't vote for Jimmmm today.

Like, if you're committed to a lynch, why not stay on LaLight at that point? Why leave a viable wagon for one with one other person on it.

Hopefully this is helpful to somebody.

I found this helpful, and I'm snipping the pieces that stand out to me the most.  I too am very interested in a deeper explanation from chicken.  Coming out of nowhere and coincidentally having a scumread on the building wagon.

Also Didds, I thought that was weird at the time; I thought the LaLight wagon had real potential.  However people fell off of it quickly, and especially that Didds fell off while saying "I just want a lynch to go through".   That smelled off.

[shraeye]

didn't read it all but I agree with didds being suspicious, her vote was reeeeally weird

Not weird, just not good. Pretty much all of my choices were related low inactivity, and were obvi wrong. Robz should have claimed, there was plenty of time for us to find a better lynch had he didn’t so. But I will fully admit that I was just trying to be helpful. I left LL when enough folks said it wasn’t fair to lynch him with no internet access, etc, so while I’m on Robz early it’s because he seemed viable based on the talk even if it wants yet about votes. And I wasn’t moving to Jimmm.

Glooble, thanks for the work.

Vote: Eddie because that jumping around is crazy more strange than not.

LL, you’ll be missed. Hey, EFHW! Thanks for joining.

Ok, that actually clears things up better for me.  Cancel my last point, carry on.

[shraeye]

As I said previously, I always jump around a lot as town and then get called scum for doing so. I refuse to accept inevitabilities and think it is much more informative if people treat days as if multiple options exist rather than it being an inevitability that someone will be lynched. Treating things as if they are inevitable is a strong play for scum to mislynch without fear.

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

Vote: Space

Really curious about what's driving those eyebrows?  Vote analysis? day-end stuff? rereading Day1?

[shraeye]

The rest are fine, but I have a feeling e needs to be there, just because of how he NEVER moved from Robz, ever ever ever, even when LL and Space wagons were being viable...

Why do you think this is scummy?

Mostly because his stubborness worked. I assume scum can make wagons push harder since they have 3 votes instead of 1, e pushing Robz all day and succeding might've been due to that. It's incredibly weak but at least it's based on evidence. I'm been procrastinating so I haven't done any (after N1 flips) rereading...sorry about that.

If my *unstellar* performance in M121 is any indication, stubbornness is not exclusively a scumtrait.  I'm hardly sure it's a scum-trait at all.

[Uncleeurope]

As I said previously, I always jump around a lot as town and then get called scum for doing so. I refuse to accept inevitabilities and think it is much more informative if people treat days as if multiple options exist rather than it being an inevitability that someone will be lynched. Treating things as if they are inevitable is a strong play for scum to mislynch without fear.

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

Vote: Space

Really curious about what's driving those eyebrows?  Vote analysis? day-end stuff? rereading Day1?

Space: Decided Robz was the best person to die despite a softish town read and didn’t mind that a lynch was heading in that direction.

WCD: seemed like the most opportunistic of the early voters for Robz.

Raerae: involvement was low and the aggressive question-asking and general persuasive nature that had me convinced she was town last game (bias aside, although read into hat what you will)

LL: posted a whole lot of nothing, and yes, not having time was definitely a factor, but that reads most obviously took time and the results are questionable.

Honestly I am less certain on raerae sight the unfolding of today, and am now much more interested in the people who haven’t talked today. Or the people who have but have said nothing.

Snow came in to argue a point with MiX then left. He didn’t try and add anything new, just walk someone through a point. That’s unlike him (not the skiing someone through a point, but the not adding anything new bit).

[shraeye]

Progress! I was rereading raerae, when I found this...

Robz, can't defend against that, I really haven't done much this game, it's big and intimidating and most of the conversation has been setup so I commented when I had something to say but was definitely content to sit back and wait until it progressed to something I can chime in on. Like today. This is the stuff I get and so I'm talking now.

But she meant to reply to me. Is this useful?

Anyway, she spends D1 interacting with shraeye, me and a little bit of faust. Or at least most of what she said was to or about one of these 3 players...In M121 she also did that, but much, much less (she still interacted more with me and shraeye but more with other players, relatively). So...@raerae, was this intentional?

Rereading takes so much effort...with all of this I basically determined raerae did nothing D1 other than talk to 3 people. Great. Is this towny or scummy? I'm leaning on the scummy side, but I don't know...

What is scummy is her complete lack of reads, she was only voting because faust "convinced" her, which means she doesn't even need to explain why her vote was there (not like I blame people finding Jimmmmmmmmm scummy, since I did). Unless you count her ash vote, which was the only thing she did out of her own initiative (at least from what I'm seeing) which is...sheeping shraeye and OMGUS. It's not looking good for her, I think I like this case more than the one I made for Space. At least she admits it? But then she just sheeps faust.

@raerae, what was your reason to vote Jimmmmmm?

Well, Vote: raerae because I feel like I'm being unfair to Space...but FoS: Space for, well, what I said before.

Is there anything setup related that's good to discuss now? I was going to bring up things related to the IC but...yeah. So not sure what to say. I've asked my share of questions and reread my share of rereads, I'll lay low for now.

What do you mean I meant to reply to you?  I was responding to Robz, that's why I said "Robz."  Also, it was D1 in an 18 player game and I very clearly said I had no reasonable reads.  Why are you trying to make this out like something I was trying to hide or minimize?  Also, when did I sheep shraeye?  And my vote on Ash wasn't OMGUS, I think his reason for voting for me was scummy as hell and made no sense.  Basically everything in your "case" is wrong, are you just hoping people will trust you and won't reread or did you really accidentally get that much stuff wrong?

Yeah, this case feels like a big non-case.  Raerae does not get excited about a ton of setup talk, which is why she wasn't engaging while people were picking through the finer points of who should do what, and how we can all make double-scum reads at the end of the day for maximal nightaction WIFOM....she said so, and it matches reality.  No scumminess for that.

Her activity picked up when people actually started talking about reads/lynches/lurking and all that.  Selling her vote to faust; might be silly, but still seems in-line with raerae being raerae to me.

Regarding this:

You were sheeping shraeye when you voted for ash, right? Let me look at it again...

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

So, okay, you weren't sheeping shraeye...but who else was on him? And this is definitely OMGUS, your vote is entirely dependant on knowing that you're town, lynching someone who doesn't have a lot of interactions isn't scummy, it's just necessary sometimes. But we went over this in D1...and you didn't address it. Well I think you lost your scumread on ash, but you didn't say why, not like it matters.

You know sheeping and OMGUS are two different things right; both are "you are voting AAA only because..." so really can't exist at the same time.  Yes, she voted for ash after me.  That doesn't automatically mean she sheeped.

[shraeye]

Important question to MiX:

Did you find Robz scummy yesterday? Why did you announce intent to hammer?

[shraeye]

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

This is also exactly the set of players who admitted to having been bothered by the conflict discussion yesterday. Have you considered whether you might be reading conflict aversion or other non-masculine behaviours as scummy given that you yourself might be looking at the game from a slightly more masculine perspective?

Now that EFHW has replaced LL, I think there are more non-males playing now than in any other f.ds mafia game I've seen.

Hey, I was also bothered by it.  And Jimmmm.  Surely others, but I recall at least both of us mentioned stuff.  I would chalk this up to crazy coincidence, rather than reading conflict-aversion as scummy.

[shraeye]

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

This is also exactly the set of players who admitted to having been bothered by the conflict discussion yesterday. Have you considered whether you might be reading conflict aversion or other non-masculine behaviours as scummy given that you yourself might be looking at the game from a slightly more masculine perspective?

Now that EFHW has replaced LL, I think there are more non-males playing now than in any other f.ds mafia game I've seen.

Hey, I was also bothered by it.  And Jimmmm.  Surely others, but I recall at least both of us mentioned stuff.  I would chalk this up to crazy coincidence, rather than reading conflict-aversion as scummy.

And this post does charge the atmosphere a bit; I can see where the post comes from, but I empathize with Uncle's reaction to it.  I think it does Uncle a disservice to imply that his opinions are because of his masculinity, I don't read anything particularly aggressive or even gendered in any of Uncle's posts.

[shraeye]

I've been reading for over an hour, still only at 661. Tomorrow I'll skip ahead to eod1 and catch up on day 2.

I appreciate the thorough reread!

[shraeye]

I don't see why you would have to be honest with your reason to vote for people if you're scum, thus I see no reason to believe if a vote was OMGUS or not based on what you say. Right? Am I being confusing here? Not that you gain anything by lying, but you're always lying when voting as scum anyway and this is no different.

If you read her explanation and immediately discard it because she's lying scum, then you're probably going to have to explain to the rest of the thread why you are so sure she's scum.  And it's not because of an OMGUS vote, because you made that conclusion BASED on the fact that you know she's scum.

This reasoning is backward, and smells like a very fake read.  "Make a decision first, find the evidence later"

I have to
Vobe: DatSwan
first, to fulfill my contractual obligation.

Then I'll
vote: MiX

[faust]

Vote: Awaclus

[2.71828.....]

Lots of long posts with lots of words that I will have to read sometime. Unfortunately I am pretty busy this week and probably won't have a ton of time to do so.

I do want to look at the D1 wagon and NKs myself still though

[faust]

I also think that picking apart the minutiae of MiX's posts is an easy way for scum to create interactions without providing much content. UoS and raerae stand out as the main culprits.

[faust]

And it is almost comical how raerae and shraeye are rehashing the exact same reads the had last game.

[Chickenwarlord]

Now something unrelated: @chicken, why, exactly, did you scumread Robz? Did you ever say that? I don't see it...

I don't believe I ever posted my reasoning, but straight out the gate he with absolutely no supporting logic voted for me, which might have evoked a mild emotional reaction - I think I'd made 2 posts at that point and he hadn't made almost any either. At that point in time, we were two of the least active players in the game and it seemed that he was trying to draw attention away from himself just by pointing it at me.
But mostly what egged me to my final vote was

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

Same.

and Robz's own

Space, move your vote to someone who is actually getting lynched maybe.

Perhaps I scumread the shoving a vote my way a bit too much but at the time it was
A: a bandwagon that actually had support
B: my first and initial scumtrigger

[faust]

Chickenwarlord, can you tell me what your top scumreads are right now?

Also, what do you want to be your nickname? Chicken sounds a little... insulting maybe, is that fine for you? We could also do CWL I guess.

[ashersky]

EBWOP: So do Ashersky's commas.

What is wrong with me?

Much like my supposed use of two commas, this is a UoS scumtell.

[ashersky]

Also, just catching up.

[faust]

I don’t really know what you mean, you may be viewing this game using masculine/feminine, but I am not. I am basing my reads on activity and content. Implying that I lack empathy/discernment helps nothing.

I think ignoring whatever outside biases you may have makes you worse at this game. If you come up with a scum list and all of the people on it share a certain non game-related characteristic - and it does not matter whether this is gender, age, activity level, native language or something else - then you should absolutely critically evaluate whether there is a bias that makes you scumread this particular set of players. This has not so much to do with identity politics as it has with being a good player. I don't think Space ever meant to imply that you lack empathy and don't see where you got that impression.

We all have biases - funnily enough I think Space's read on MiX is heavily influenced by non-game related bias.

[Chickenwarlord]

Chickenwarlord, can you tell me what your top scumreads are right now?

Also, what do you want to be your nickname? Chicken sounds a little... insulting maybe, is that fine for you? We could also do CWL I guess.

Chicken is fine as a nickname.

Given how poorly I read yesterday, I'm far from qualified to be making scumreads- but my suspicions have definitely shifted to Awaclus and possibly Space.

[faust]

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted. This is exemplified here:

Datswan votes for Robz because he doesn't want his vote to go to waste and he doesn't want to lynch Space.

Awaclus jumps on.

I don't want to lynch Space either and it's looking unlikely anything else is going to pick up steam so I jump on too.

Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

The mislynch was already driven home before I voted.

[faust]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

[Awaclus]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

[SpaceAnemone]

I don’t really know what you mean, you may be viewing this game using masculine/feminine, but I am not. I am basing my reads on activity and content. Implying that I lack empathy/discernment helps nothing.

I think ignoring whatever outside biases you may have makes you worse at this game. If you come up with a scum list and all of the people on it share a certain non game-related characteristic - and it does not matter whether this is gender, age, activity level, native language or something else - then you should absolutely critically evaluate whether there is a bias that makes you scumread this particular set of players. This has not so much to do with identity politics as it has with being a good player. I don't think Space ever meant to imply that you lack empathy and don't see where you got that impression.

We all have biases - funnily enough I think Space's read on MiX is heavily influenced by non-game related bias.

Thank you, faust. I agree with you on both points!

@Uncleeurope, I'm sorry if my tone was too accusatory when I asked whether you'd considered that you might be biased. I made a conscious effort to phrase that as a question because I wanted to raise it as a possibility without openly saying that I thought you were definitely doing that. However, reading back over my post, even with the question-phrasing, it sounds like I was being a bit pointed. I do accuse you of being at least marginally off with your reads, though, because I can guarantee that at least one of the players you listed is emphatically not scum :-)

I also agree that I have to be careful about by own biases, and indeed that's why I haven't voted MiX in D2 yet in spite of the fact that I think raerae is right about MiX virtually lying to town, and that isn't something I think town should do lightly.

To be as generous to MiX as I can be, he didn't explicitly say he'd looked for Robz's post and couldn't find it, he only said at #914 that he couldn't find it. However, not finding something is a common outcome of not even t even attempt to look for it. So when he admitted at #917 that he didn't even look for the post raerae had been referring to, it wasn't a contradiction in the strict sense. (I'm still not at all a fan of this play, though!)

[faust]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

How is participating in getting the lynch through indication of townieness?

[Awaclus]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

How is participating in getting the lynch through indication of townieness?

Because lynch is better than no lynch.

[faust]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

How is participating in getting the lynch through indication of townieness?

Because lynch is better than no lynch.

Which is just as true for scum in multiball.

[shraeye]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

How is participating in getting the lynch through indication of townieness?

Because lynch is better than no lynch.

1000 boooos

[Awaclus]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

How is participating in getting the lynch through indication of townieness?

Because lynch is better than no lynch.

Which is just as true for scum in multiball.

I didn't think of that.

[shraeye]

And it is almost comical how raerae and shraeye are rehashing the exact same reads the had last game.

Yeah, I'm dying laughing.

But seriously, this brushstroke is way too broad.  It feels like a discredit to the MiX vote, for reasons that are much bigger than they really are. 

*shraeye and raerae vote MiX in M121, shraeye and raerae vote Mix in RMM52*
Faust: funny how ALL of both of your reads are just exact copies of last game

[faust]

And it is almost comical how raerae and shraeye are rehashing the exact same reads the had last game.

Yeah, I'm dying laughing.

But seriously, this brushstroke is way too broad.  It feels like a discredit to the MiX vote, for reasons that are much bigger than they really are. 

*shraeye and raerae vote MiX in M121, shraeye and raerae vote Mix in RMM52*
Faust: funny how ALL of both of your reads are just exact copies of last game.

Also raerae was pushing for your lynch on D1, which mirrors what happened in the other game.

[ashersky]

And it is almost comical how raerae and shraeye are rehashing the exact same reads the had last game.

Yeah, I'm dying laughing.

But seriously, this brushstroke is way too broad.  It feels like a discredit to the MiX vote, for reasons that are much bigger than they really are. 

*shraeye and raerae vote MiX in M121, shraeye and raerae vote Mix in RMM52*
Faust: funny how ALL of both of your reads are just exact copies of last game.

Also raerae was pushing for your lynch on D1, which mirrors what happened in the other game.

I feel like raerae was "pushing" shraeye's lynch, not actually pushing the lynch.  Like, it was slapstick tunneling.  That was scummy to me.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.1

Worf wanted the station evacuated of civilians, but the Council of Vedeks overrules him and he ends up with exactly the opposite: A huge influx of Bajorans coming to the station for the Emissary's funeral, which will be conducted by Kai Winn and held on the Promenade. It is decided that one funeral will be held for the Emissary, his son, and Major Kira (the highest ranking Bajoran officer on the station). In spite of himself, Odo finds himself abandoning his spy-hunting to arrange security for the funeral.

Worf, meanwhile, has to secure access to the larger space.

"Look, no one loved the commander more than I," Quark says. "My own nephew and his son were inseparable. I was like a second father to the boy, in a way. And if it were just up to me, I would love to offer up the bar AND the catering, free of charge, for the wake. But in these lean times, I have bills to pay and a bar to keep open. You know, when he first arrived at the station, Commander Sisko begged me to keep the bar open. Nobody cared for Quarks more than him. So, in his memory, to honor him, I will have to charge my usual fee. But I'll tell you what. Assuming you meet the drink minimum, I promise to donate 10 percent of the profits to help the Bajoran war orphans that Major Kira cared about so much."

"You have no honor," Worf says. "But I do not have time to argue with you. Just see that there is food."


SpaceAnemone (1): UncleEurope
UncleEurope (1): WestCoastDidds
raerae (1): MiX
MiX (2): raerae, Shraeye
Awaclus (1): faust


Not voting (9): 2.71828....., UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, ashersky, EFHW

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi friends-

I am completely sunk under with work stuff today. I'll be back tomorrow. xoxo

[raerae]

And it is almost comical how raerae and shraeye are rehashing the exact same reads the had last game.

Yeah, I'm dying laughing.

But seriously, this brushstroke is way too broad.  It feels like a discredit to the MiX vote, for reasons that are much bigger than they really are. 

*shraeye and raerae vote MiX in M121, shraeye and raerae vote Mix in RMM52*
Faust: funny how ALL of both of your reads are just exact copies of last game.

Also raerae was pushing for your lynch on D1, which mirrors what happened in the other game.

I think you and I have a different definition of "pushing."

[raerae]

And it is almost comical how raerae and shraeye are rehashing the exact same reads the had last game.

Yeah, I'm dying laughing.

But seriously, this brushstroke is way too broad.  It feels like a discredit to the MiX vote, for reasons that are much bigger than they really are. 

*shraeye and raerae vote MiX in M121, shraeye and raerae vote Mix in RMM52*
Faust: funny how ALL of both of your reads are just exact copies of last game.

Also raerae was pushing for your lynch on D1, which mirrors what happened in the other game.

I feel like raerae was "pushing" shraeye's lynch, not actually pushing the lynch.  Like, it was slapstick tunneling.  That was scummy to me.

Ash, serious question, have you ever actually read me as town?

[Glooble]

Hi friends-

I am completely sunk under with work stuff today. I'll be back tomorrow. xoxo

I am also incredibly swamped by my job, but I will try and check in tonight.

[faust]

I think you and I have a different definition of "pushing."

I guess my memory is not quite accurate. You voted shraeye early and then spent basically every other post questioning people who voiced an opinion on him. I guess you never explicitly expressed a scumread, but I am not surprised that I had that impression.

[raerae]

I think you and I have a different definition of "pushing."

I guess my memory is not quite accurate. You voted shraeye early and then spent basically every other post questioning people who voiced an opinion on him. I guess you never explicitly expressed a scumread, but I am not surprised that I had that impression.

My vote was my standard start of game vote for shraeye but other people seemed to actually have STRONG opinions on him which seemed weird so early game. Of course I'm going to question that.

[raerae]

I also think that picking apart the minutiae of MiX's posts is an easy way for scum to create interactions without providing much content. UoS and raerae stand out as the main culprits.

I don't understand how showing somebody is wrong is "picking apart the minutiae."  MiX lied and misrepresented to make a case on me and I pointed that out.   This makes two times you've tried to downplay my MiX vote.  Are you protecting him or just trying to build up the suspicion on me?

[raerae]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

You want to actually do this instead of just dropping a post saying it's a good idea?

Without anybody outing themselves, is it safe to assume jimmmmmmmmm shot mcmc and scum was blocked in someway?  I don't recall jimmmmmm throwing shade on mcmc but could just be misremembering.  Or do they both look like scum kills because N1 might not be the best time to use your one-shot?  This is dangerously close to setup talk which I'm absolutely fabulous at so I look forward to giving some deep insights.

[faust]

I also think that picking apart the minutiae of MiX's posts is an easy way for scum to create interactions without providing much content. UoS and raerae stand out as the main culprits.

I don't understand how showing somebody is wrong is "picking apart the minutiae."  MiX lied and misrepresented to make a case on me and I pointed that out.   This makes two times you've tried to downplay my MiX vote.  Are you protecting him or just trying to build up the suspicion on me?

Well I am bound to not vote for you today, so no, I am not trying to build up suspicion. I want to lynch Awaclus. I admit that you have more of a reason to agrue with MiX since he scumread you. But I just skimmed those posts, they were kind of tedious to read through.

[faust]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

You want to actually do this instead of just dropping a post saying it's a good idea?

I did do this. I just don't want to share.

Without anybody outing themselves, is it safe to assume jimmmmmmmmm shot mcmc and scum was blocked in someway?  I don't recall jimmmmmm throwing shade on mcmc but could just be misremembering.  Or do they both look like scum kills because N1 might not be the best time to use your one-shot?  This is dangerously close to setup talk which I'm absolutely fabulous at so I look forward to giving some deep insights.

I think it is relatively safe to assume that Jimmmmm did not use his shot N1. There are probably lots of "should vigs shoot N1" discussions out there and you could find Jimmmmm's stance on that, but anyway I imagine there is a relative consensus that 1-shot vigs should not shoot N1.

[faust]

Because I have nothing better to do I checked whether Jimmmmm has gone on record on whether vigs should shoot N1. Here it is.

We have a Vig who as we know should not shoot until at least the mid-late game.

So, it should definitely be safe to assume both kills were scum-induced.

[MiX]

MiX states his opinion, everyone in the world pounces on him. Am I not supposed to say things? But this provided a lot of reactions, so I'm happy.

Ha. I have to admit I didn't look for whatever post you where refering to, I just found a good non-Robz that I remembered (because I wrote it). Well that's awkward.

I haven't even read the rest of this post,

Vote: MiX

blatantly lying to influence town is the literal definition of scum.

Oh come on! I wasn't intentionally lying, I saw something weird and I went to look for an explanation, didn't look into it too much since I assumed you knew what you were replying to and it felt null. This is just...a weird reason to vote. But I guess what you say next's supposed to justify it?

Your reason to vote ash was discredited by mcmc a few posts later

I don't see why you would have to be honest with your reason to vote for people if you're scum, thus I see no reason to believe if a vote was OMGUS or not based on what you say. Right? Am I being confusing here? Not that you gain anything by lying, but you're always lying when voting as scum anyway and this is no different.

As for Jimmmmmm, why did you sell your vote to faust? Why not e, me, shraeye, I don't know, anyone else? And did you simply sheep his case or did you see anything else that was scummy? That's the answer I wanted, "why did you vote for Jimmmmm" is a good catch-all question for that, I think.

Okay, actually read the whole thing, I'll address the three bolded points and then I'm all sorts of done with this.  If anybody else wants to engage, I'd be happy to talk.


1) Discredited??  My OPINION on scummy behavior isn't any less valid than his.  Facts can be discredited but opinions are just feelings with a different name and you don't get to tell somebody their feelings aren't valid.  mcmc isn't right because he believes it isn't scummy and I'm not right because I do, we just feel differently about the subject.  I still see ash's reasons for voting for me as scummy but mcmc and faust (two players I respect and who have significant game experience, and one who's conf!town) don't so I am willing to accept that it may not be as scummy as it looks to me.  I'm willing to recognize that somebody else's feelings are valid.

2) My problem isn't with you disbelieving me when I say it wasn't OMGUS (this is Mafia, disbelief is to be expected, I get it), it's with you TELLING me that my stated reason for voting wasn't my stated reason for voting.  It's you telling me you know more about what I was thinking and how I feel than I do.  Because you don't.  Flat out.  You can say, "I don't believe you," but you never get to fucking tell me, "No, it was X because I say so." 

3) Nobody else made an offer.  I sold to literally the only person bidding.

1) That was probably bad wording, I meant that the reason for your vote was, well, challenged by mcmc and you didn't respond to it. Not a "no, you're wrong" or "hmm, but he's still scummy because X" or...well, something. Let's see what happened:

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

Vote: ash

He didn’t say you were an informative lynch he said you are a good one. I agree your lynch isn’t super informative

I don't get it.  The only good lynch is an informative lynch, otherwise you're just killing to kill, what's the point?

A scum lynch is the best lynch regardless of how informative it is.

After this post, you didn't talk about ash again, or at least you didn't mention this again. However, you later implied that you had lost (or diminished) your scumread on ash. Aaaaand you just said it now. Okay, that makes sense.

2) I'm not telling YOU, I'm saying what I think it was. But you're right in that there's no reason for me to say WHY you did if I believe you're scum, because that would, by itself, be the reason (you're scum and you want to vote somewhere). So, okay, point taken. I guess I can rephrase that: I didn't agree with the reason you voted ash. Is that scummy? Guess not...

3) So this is essencially consistent with the lack of scumreads you had all D1, you simply latched onto a case that a (very influencial) player made because you liked it. Uh, yeah, it's just consistent, nothing scummy here...

So at this point I think one of the reasons I was scumreading raerae (lack of scumreads and weird reasons to vote) is...null-to-towny, according to her meta. Anyone else agree with this? It's definitely not as scummy as I initially thought, since she admitted she had basically no reads in D1 already...

Unvote, but there's one tricky question I want you to answer:

Anyway, she spends D1 interacting with shraeye, me and a little bit of faust. Or at least most of what she said was to or about one of these 3 players...In M121 she also did that, but much, much less (she still interacted more with me and shraeye but more with other players, relatively). So...@raerae, was this intentional?

Not sure how you would answer this, which is why I'm asking.

Next: all the things non-raerae that happened while I was gone.

[WestCoastDidds]

I'll stand next to faust for awhile (plus I forgot that Eddie had claimed)

vote: Awaclus

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I also think that picking apart the minutiae of MiX's posts is an easy way for scum to create interactions without providing much content. UoS and raerae stand out as the main culprits.

So that was only minutiae? Would you think I'm insane to say I think that interaction is going to help me read MiX as the game goes on?

Also, were you going to do some NKA or just comment that it would be useful, because I'm kind of waiting to see what you have to say.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

People who are not named faust or Eddie (and also not including Uncleeurope):

What do people think my read on e is? Have I implied one?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

EBWOP: So do Ashersky's commas.

What is wrong with me?

Much like my supposed use of two commas, this is a UoS scumtell.

Funny because the comma thing was deliberately BS. I think you're actually less likely than average to be scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

More importantly, what leads you to believe Awaclus was townreading Robz?

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t really know what you mean, you may be viewing this game using masculine/feminine, but I am not. I am basing my reads on activity and content. Implying that I lack empathy/discernment helps nothing.

I think ignoring whatever outside biases you may have makes you worse at this game. If you come up with a scum list and all of the people on it share a certain non game-related characteristic - and it does not matter whether this is gender, age, activity level, native language or something else - then you should absolutely critically evaluate whether there is a bias that makes you scumread this particular set of players. This has not so much to do with identity politics as it has with being a good player. I don't think Space ever meant to imply that you lack empathy and don't see where you got that impression.

We all have biases - funnily enough I think Space's read on MiX is heavily influenced by non-game related bias.

I agree that ignoring bias would be bad, but I don’t think there is bias to ignore here. And if your response is “well how can you know?” I can’t, but there comes a time during critical self-evaluation that I have to decide that my opinions are genuine, otherwise I can’t believe anything. So that’s what I mean when I say I’m not looking at the game like that, I’m as sure as I am about anything else I believe.

Vote: Awaclus

PPE: 5

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, caught up.

Vote: faust

[UmbrageOfSnow]

And if your response is “well how can you know?” I can’t, but there comes a time during critical self-evaluation that I have to decide that my opinions are genuine, otherwise I can’t believe anything. So that’s what I mean when I say I’m not looking at the game like that, I’m as sure as I am about anything else I believe.

To be fair, you have lots of objectively wrong opinions.

(I don't actually think you're being biased here either, for what that's worth. I'm just obligated to say this.)

[Uncleeurope]

And if your response is “well how can you know?” I can’t, but there comes a time during critical self-evaluation that I have to decide that my opinions are genuine, otherwise I can’t believe anything. So that’s what I mean when I say I’m not looking at the game like that, I’m as sure as I am about anything else I believe.

To be fair, you have lots of objectively wrong opinions.

(I don't actually think you're being biased here either, for what that's worth. I'm just obligated to say this.)

It isn’t objectively wrong to say that you are petty, though.

[MiX]

didn't read it all but I agree with didds being suspicious, her vote was reeeeally weird

Not weird, just not good. Pretty much all of my choices were related low inactivity, and were obvi wrong. Robz should have claimed, there was plenty of time for us to find a better lynch had he didn’t so. But I will fully admit that I was just trying to be helpful. I left LL when enough folks said it wasn’t fair to lynch him with no internet access, etc, so while I’m on Robz early it’s because he seemed viable based on the talk even if it wants yet about votes. And I wasn’t moving to Jimmm.

Ok, that actually clears things up better for me.  Cancel my last point, carry on.

This seems odd. shraeye doesn't like Didds' vote but then immediatly withdraws it? And who said it wasn't fair to lynch LL with no internet access? That's such a non-issue, not like anyone was going to claim...oh faust mentions it. So faust's reason for finding the LL wagon lazy was because it appeared out of thin air close to deadline...but it's not like LL had done anything earlier than that! Now that I think about it, the LL wagon died fast, didn't it?

Anyway, I can't say that shraeye believing it is scummy, just feels...too easy, like shraeye didn't want to have a scumread on Didds. I have a feeling I'm looking too much into everything D2, maybe I should stop.

If my *unstellar* performance in M121 is any indication, stubbornness is not exclusively a scumtrait.  I'm hardly sure it's a scum-trait at all.

Scum loves doing things based on things not related to the game, so they don't have to explain anything. Being stubborn's a really easy way to put down a vote and not budge ever, despite anything others say. But you're right, it's not just a scumtrait, which is precisely why it's a good scum tactic. Not much else to say here.

Snow came in to argue a point with MiX then left. He didn’t try and add anything new, just walk someone through a point. That’s unlike him (not the skiing someone through a point, but the not adding anything new bit).

I actually don't remember what UoS did at the end of D1, besides asking me a bunch of weird questions. Let's see...

Vote: Robz

Baaaaaaaaa

Oh. @UoS, why did you vote Robz?


This post's getting huge, let's split it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh. @UoS, why did you vote Robz?

I thought my explanation was very eloquent.

[Awaclus]

Vote: MiX

[MiX]

Did you find Robz scummy yesterday? Why did you announce intent to hammer?

Not really, but the only way we were going to get a lynch was if I helped. He was null to me so it was better than nothing. Of course Robz didn't claim and so we lost the best PR, but I'm not really sorry for him, more annoyed at the people running away from LL like crazy.

If you read her explanation and immediately discard it because she's lying scum, then you're probably going to have to explain to the rest of the thread why you are so sure she's scum.  And it's not because of an OMGUS vote, because you made that conclusion BASED on the fact that you know she's scum.

This reasoning is backward, and smells like a very fake read.  "Make a decision first, find the evidence later"

I don't think I discarded it...but at this point I lost track of what I felt about raerae. I've probably adressed this when I softened my scumread on raerae (currently it's just because she essencially only interacted with 3 people, but that's more null than scummy).

And yes, I was trying to test my raerae case, I had a scumread on her all night and it increased when I was rereading, so I said it. She defended herself well, so I backed off. There's better players to look today anyway.

Now something unrelated: @chicken, why, exactly, did you scumread Robz? Did you ever say that? I don't see it...

I don't believe I ever posted my reasoning, but straight out the gate he with absolutely no supporting logic voted for me, which might have evoked a mild emotional reaction - I think I'd made 2 posts at that point and he hadn't made almost any either. At that point in time, we were two of the least active players in the game and it seemed that he was trying to draw attention away from himself just by pointing it at me.

But mostly what egged me to my final vote was

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

Same.

and Robz's own

Space, move your vote to someone who is actually getting lynched maybe.

Perhaps I scumread the shoving a vote my way a bit too much but at the time it was
A: a bandwagon that actually had support
B: my first and initial scumtrigger

Okay... So what about those 2 quotes made you feel Robz was scummy? What are your other scumreads? New players have a tendency to focus a lot of their attention to things that affect them, maybe you should try to look into players you haven't interacted with yet; for example, it seems like you voted Robz because he voted you. I have to say, if you were any other player, I would be scumreading you right now, because those 2 posts are not only null, the last one's actually towny, however, you're in the "no-lynch" zone, so it makes sense. Just elaborate these points. Also, Jimmmmmm, LL and Space had support too, why didn't you go there?

Ah, almost forgot: what were your scumreads when you voted Robz? Surely it wasn't just him, right?

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted. This is exemplified here:

Datswan votes for Robz because he doesn't want his vote to go to waste and he doesn't want to lynch Space.

Awaclus jumps on.

I don't want to lynch Space either and it's looking unlikely anything else is going to pick up steam so I jump on too.

Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

You even mention him, but I think you're not giving enough relevance to Swan. I believe him, along with chicken and Space, are the ones that secured the Robz lynch. Awaclus only appeared when it was inevitable, the anti-Robz folk were too dilluted in the LL/e/Space wagon (I'm at fault there too), in fact, it's a bit weird when you consider that faust started the Space wagon and immediatly afterwards Swan said he didn't want a Space lynch. Also don't like how Swan said a bunch of NAI things, stated "Glooble is town", voted Robz and dissapeared. Maybe they're just really busy...

Hmm, the timing on Swan's vote is much more suspicious than Space's timing + my (weak) case on them, so:

Vote: Swan

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

Vote: MiX

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon. But, okay, why am I scum? To answer your follow-up question, I'm not scum because I've been incredibly active and I'm trying to catch scum while interacting enough to see if people catch on to the fact that I'm town. Is that good enough? I hope not, because otherwise all scum had to do was be active, but it should still count for something.

PPE a bunch of posts I didn't quote

[faust]

Also, were you going to do some NKA or just comment that it would be useful, because I'm kind of waiting to see what you have to say.

Just comment.

[faust]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

More importantly, what leads you to believe Awaclus was townreading Robz?

Nothing.

[Awaclus]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

[Awaclus]

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

[MiX]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

You're right. You turned it into a real wagon. Which means you're doing everything in your townmeta. Okay, I like this explanation.

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

Aaaaand there goes my other argument. So I think Awaclus' town(y) now...

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

More importantly, what leads you to believe Awaclus was townreading Robz?

What makes you think faust believed Awaclus had a townread on Robz?

Oh. @UoS, why did you vote Robz?

I thought my explanation was very eloquent.

No, it wasn't...

[shraeye]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

[shraeye]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

You're right. You turned it into a real wagon. Which means you're doing everything in your townmeta. Okay, I like this explanation.

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

Aaaaand there goes my other argument. So I think Awaclus' town(y) now...

I'm really not sure how Awaclus' answers caused you to fold there.  They were valid points, and his answers seemed like they brushed them aside instead of addressing them.  Just "Weak suspicion" --> "weak answer" --> "oh, now my scumread is gone in fact you're towny".......

[MiX]

What scumhunting? You did nothing D1, you were away for half of it and the other half you said a NAI thing and voted Robz, thats it. How is that scumhunting?

I voted for e at a crucial moment which was likely to cause reactions from a lot of different people.

You're right. You turned it into a real wagon. Which means you're doing everything in your townmeta. Okay, I like this explanation.

Sounds like a good way to avoid getting lynched by going to the biggest wagon.

It's also a good way to do a lot of other things. And no, that's not good enough.

Aaaaand there goes my other argument. So I think Awaclus' town(y) now...

I'm really not sure how Awaclus' answers caused you to fold there.  They were valid points, and his answers seemed like they brushed them aside instead of addressing them.  Just "Weak suspicion" --> "weak answer" --> "oh, now my scumread is gone in fact you're towny".......

Where did you get the scumread from? Why did you assume that I had a scumread on Awaclus? Besides, I'm sure this is how town!Awaclus would answer, I just wanted to know what he thought he had done of scumhunting.

[raerae]

Because I have nothing better to do I checked whether Jimmmmm has gone on record on whether vigs should shoot N1. Here it is.

We have a Vig who as we know should not shoot until at least the mid-late game.

So, it should definitely be safe to assume both kills were scum-induced.

Thanks for running that down, I was curious but didn't know where to start looking.

[Awaclus]

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

Every townie can do that for themselves silently in their heads without posting about it and telling scum how to counterplay us.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Awaclus, what's my read on e.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This isn't a trick question, it's more to make a point to MiX (and faust, who surely doesn't need it.)

[Awaclus]

I think MiX just demonstrated he doesn't need it either so why are we doing this?

[shraeye]

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

Every townie can do that for themselves silently in their heads without posting about it and telling scum how to counterplay us.

Yeah, but if your argument is "I was towny because I scumhunted; you can tell because I'm saying that I made thoughts in my head".....that's really really crappy evidence of towniness.

[Awaclus]

Well did it cause reactions?  Summarize your thoughts there?  Do the, you know, actual legwork part of scumhunting?

Every townie can do that for themselves silently in their heads without posting about it and telling scum how to counterplay us.

Yeah, but if your argument is "I was towny because I scumhunted; you can tell because I'm saying that I made thoughts in my head".....that's really really crappy evidence of towniness.

The evidence isn't the thoughts I had in my head because scum also has thoughts in their head, the evidence is voting for e to generate more info for everyone to draw conclusions from. That's the part that's actually hunting, the rest is just collecting the loot.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.2

"My dear doctor! Oh but don't you look glum," Garak says as Dr. Bashir sits down for their weekly lunch.

"Sorry Garak, but I find it hard to stay positive when my friends are dropping like flies," the doctor says glumly.

"A few years in the Obsidian Order would cure you of that sort of sentimentality," Garak replies. "Personally, I prefer to look on the bright side: I'm still alive. You're still alive. And, if I'm not mistaken, your lunch is still alive," he says, gesturing to the plate of squirming gagh in front of Bashir. "Are you sure you're in the mood for Klingon food?"

"Well," says Bashir, "I thought perhaps today I should get a lunch that says 'Today is a good day to die'."


MiX (3): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, UncleEurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX


Not voting (7): 2.71828....., SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Glooble, ashersky, EFHW

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

[Uncleeurope]

Ruining said vote count by voting:

Vote: Snow

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think MiX just demonstrated he doesn't need it either so why are we doing this?

I don't think he did. Also I wanted to see how difficult you were going to be.

[faust]

Ruining said vote count by voting:

Vote: Snow

Why the switch?

[Uncleeurope]

Ruining said vote count by voting:

Vote: Snow

Why the switch?

Why not? I haven’t suddenly townread the guy if that’s what you are asking, he is still a suspect. Just wanted to throw a vote at Snow. I think he is the player posting the most with the least to say.

[faust]

Ruining said vote count by voting:

Vote: Snow

Why the switch?

Why not? I haven’t suddenly townread the guy if that’s what you are asking, he is still a suspect. Just wanted to throw a vote at Snow. I think he is the player posting the most with the least to say.

BUt we had such a good thing going!

[MiX]

Ruining said vote count by voting:

Vote: Snow

Why the switch?

Why not? I haven’t suddenly townread the guy if that’s what you are asking, he is still a suspect. Just wanted to throw a vote at Snow. I think he is the player posting the most with the least to say.

BUt we had such a good thing going!

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

I think Swan's timing was much scummier, especially because he left, Awaclus was at deadline so his vote wasn't final.

[faust]

Ruining said vote count by voting:

Vote: Snow

Why the switch?

Why not? I haven’t suddenly townread the guy if that’s what you are asking, he is still a suspect. Just wanted to throw a vote at Snow. I think he is the player posting the most with the least to say.

BUt we had such a good thing going!

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

Awaclus is Awaclus.

[MiX]

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

Awaclus is Awaclus.

Touché.

No, but seriously.

[ashersky]

EBWOP: So do Ashersky's commas.

What is wrong with me?

Much like my supposed use of two commas, this is a UoS scumtell.

Funny because the comma thing was deliberately BS. I think you're actually less likely than average to be scum.

I was also joking. Maybe it didn’t come across correctly.

I don’t know why you keep asking others what your read of 2.7 is. Why don’t you tell us?

Faust is 2.7ing. As in, Faust today is mimicking 2.7 of Day 1, only with Awa instead of Robz.  It’s so oddly jarring that it feels intentional.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm townreading e. I think that should be blindingly obvious. I don't think anyone is paying attention.

MiX: By "baaaaaa" I meant I was sheeping e.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think people honestly suspecting me for not contributing would have looked at my posts and tried to see the reasoning behind them, which is a small but still relevant part of my suspicion of faust and a FoS at Eddie.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The bigger issue is the playing off town's frustration at lynching one of the most valuable PRs (who did misplay), we should all be mad at the Robz lynch and look around to assign blame as a means of scumhunting seems to be the position faust is taking, and it's irrational and he knows it. It's manipulative.

[ashersky]

My big problem with the game so far is no one is particularly towny in the way I feel comfortable completely taking them off the table.

Some players have done towny things. No players have set themselves apart as “good.” 

So I’m struggling to separate the wheat.

On Robz, yeah he def misplayed. His last post came at a time when he should have realized the risk of being lynch outweighed any benefit he thought he’d get from waiting to activate his IC.

Because of that, I can’t give the Robz mislynch any more weight than a normal mislynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

I've done a first round of wagon-gazing. There aren't many occasions on D1 where more than two of the green names (including my own, from my PoV) are interacting with the same wagon, with the exception of a five-person wagon on e.

At its peak, the wagon is:
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds

So given that it's stable for almost 80 posts, it seems pretty likely that at least one of e, LL, Awaclus or Didds is scum. In a "normal-sized" game, a fiver-person town-on-town wagon is significantly rare, but with so many players in here for D1, I would expect at least a slightly higher chance. There'd even be a case for there being one of each scumteam, if we have two multi-person teams. That seems kind of a stretch when we're only talking about six players in total, though, which probably means it would be smart to check the baseline assumptions about how likely it is for there to be a scum (or one of each scum) in a group of n players. I'll tabulate some numbers when I'm not so sleepy, but right now it's after midnight and I desperately need an early night.

Here's a description of how the e wagon came about, in case a summary is useful for anyone (and since I'd typed it all before realising that it might be more interesting for most people if I just to jump straight to the interesting part):
By around #200, e has had votes from faust and mcmc for a while.
Faust moves to Robz at #265.
Robz joins mcmc on e at #268.
Robz moves to Chicken at #361.
LL joins mcmc on e at #391.
Robz joins them at #402.
Awaclus joins at #473.
Didds joins at #482.
This wagon, the largest so far in the game at that point, stays stable till #561, when Didds moves off onto MiX.
mcm moves to raerae at #643, the the rest stay till Robz moves over to the growing LL wagon at #781.

[Glooble]

I've been kind of keeping up with day 2 but there's a lot to process. I'm just reading through and pulling out things I feel the need to comment on.

Chickenwarlord, can you tell me what your top scumreads are right now?

Also, what do you want to be your nickname? Chicken sounds a little... insulting maybe, is that fine for you? We could also do CWL I guess.

Chicken is fine as a nickname.

Given how poorly I read yesterday, I'm far from qualified to be making scumreads- but my suspicions have definitely shifted to Awaclus and possibly Space.

I wouldn't worry about qualifications. It's important to have reads and its helpful to share them. Doesn't mean your forcing them on anyone. Also Awaclus is notoriously hard to read- his style tends to come off scummy to a lot of people. Oddly I was kind of townreading him day 1, but looking over day 2 I'm scumreading him for sure.

I also think that picking apart the minutiae of MiX's posts is an easy way for scum to create interactions without providing much content. UoS and raerae stand out as the main culprits.

I don't understand how showing somebody is wrong is "picking apart the minutiae."  MiX lied and misrepresented to make a case on me and I pointed that out.   This makes two times you've tried to downplay my MiX vote.  Are you protecting him or just trying to build up the suspicion on me?

Raerae, I'm interested in your case on MiX. This is my first game, and I feel like he says a lot and I find it hard to follow his train of thought, which is making it hard to identify the places where he misrepresented you. Now that he's walked back those statements do you still find him scummy? Is he more scummy for trying to walk back statements when they put pressure on him rather than sticking to his guns?

You even mention him, but I think you're not giving enough relevance to Swan. I believe him, along with chicken and Space, are the ones that secured the Robz lynch. Awaclus only appeared when it was inevitable, the anti-Robz folk were too dilluted in the LL/e/Space wagon (I'm at fault there too), in fact, it's a bit weird when you consider that faust started the Space wagon and immediatly afterwards Swan said he didn't want a Space lynch. Also don't like how Swan said a bunch of NAI things, stated "Glooble is town", voted Robz and dissapeared. Maybe they're just really busy...

Hmm, the timing on Swan's vote is much more suspicious than Space's timing + my (weak) case on them, so:

Vote: Swan

These are good points. We should be looking at Swan more. He is playing very under the radar this game. FoS: Swan

I'm really not sure how Awaclus' answers caused you to fold there.  They were valid points, and his answers seemed like they brushed them aside instead of addressing them.  Just "Weak suspicion" --> "weak answer" --> "oh, now my scumread is gone in fact you're towny".......

I strongly agree with shraeye here. That whole interaction between Awaclus and MiX honestly felt staged. Like I don't see the logic in Awaclus's answers and I have a really hard time seeing where MiX finds them convincing.

Okay, this is kind of stream-of-consciousness, but reading MiX's day 2 play there is a lot of pushing something and immediately backing off when any pressure is put on that assertion. It happens with raerae, and then it happens with Awaclus even faster. My gut reaction is that that's scummy.

I've been giving MiX the benefit of the doubt for several reasons- I've never played with him before, he's been very active and he's made some points I agree with. But his pattern of behavior feels scummy to me.

I'd still like raerae to elaborate on how she feels he misrepresented her, but for now I'm comfortable with vote: MiX. Remember that this is multiball, so scum can genuinely scumhunt.

[EFHW]

Ok, I'm here. Maybe people could put tl'drs at the end of long posts?

I only got one scumread out of that whole thing. Maybe things will be easier going forward.

WCD, I was cheering for you. It's fun having more women playing - for a long time after raerae left, it was just me. But it isn't actually all that different, and I object to genderizing playstyles or motivations.

[EFHW]

I did think this was towny by faust.

Right, no, I forgot we have to wait a day.

Hmm. Back to vote: e

PPE: Eddie = Uncleeurope.

See, I told you we should be voting faust

I disagree and will also vote: europe

If we lynch him today, the Universal Backup will inherit the Hated Godfather. We do not want that.

[WestCoastDidds]

EFHW, who was your scumread?

And totally agree on needing tl;dr summaries for long posts!

[shraeye]

The bigger issue is the playing off town's frustration at lynching one of the most valuable PRs (who did misplay), we should all be mad at the Robz lynch and look around to assign blame as a means of scumhunting seems to be the position faust is taking, and it's irrational and he knows it. It's manipulative.

also, faust saying raerae's reads and my reads were just copies from last game seemed both disingenuous and a really ham-fisted way to cast doubt on our reads.

That's two counts of faust manipulating.

[raerae]

I've beat this horse so bad, Glooble, I'm really not interested in rehashing everything I posted (there was other weird stuff like his take on my current read on ash that I absolutely haven't talked about today that I just walked away from) on the subject but will recap.  Primarily it was his assumption and then insistence that I was responding to him once (I said Robz but meant mcmc, not the craziest mix-up in history), him claiming my vote on ash was simultaneously sheeping shraeye and OMGUS (I maintain it was neither) and then saying it was the only thing I did on my own day one (those three are unable to happen together, pick your poison), then he just totally missed why I voted for jimmmmm even though he apparently reread the day and explained it (incorrectly) right before asking me why I voted for jimmmm.  The entire thing just felt stretchy where it wasn't entirely incorrect. 

My vote for him came very specifically for the following and generally for basically what shraeye said.  If he's town, he just lied to try to push a lynch through and that's the opposite of the kind of town I want in the game.  I, obviously, think he's scum who just tried to lol his way out of a shit case.

What Robz post were you replying to? I...didn't find it. In fact, it doesn't exist. I am as confused as you are...you're clearly replying to this:

Ha. I have to admit I didn't look for whatever post you where refering to, I just found a good non-Robz that I remembered (because I wrote it). Well that's awkward.

I think his particular walking back is scummy.  I don't think it's scummy to have a read because of XYZ and then to believe the explanation for XYZ.  We're all here to push and say, "Isn't this weird?" and to respond, "Naw, I was thinking this."  You get to choose whether you believe it but I think the belief is what's missing in his stepback.  He seems, both w/me and Awaclus, to just sort of throw his hands up and go, "Guess ya got me!" and that seems like giving up too easy if you actually believe your case.

[raerae]

Ok, I'm here. Maybe people could put tl'drs at the end of long posts?

I only got one scumread out of that whole thing. Maybe things will be easier going forward.

WCD, I was cheering for you. It's fun having more women playing - for a long time after raerae left, it was just me. But it isn't actually all that different, and I object to genderizing playstyles or motivations.

Accidental guilt-trip but I'm feeling it!  I'm sorry!!

tl;dr: not game related

[shraeye]

Some players have done towny things. No players have set themselves apart as “good.” 

So I’m struggling to separate the wheat.

Yeah, I agree with this big big.  I have a handful of scumreads, a double-handful of people I'm suspicious of. Another handful of people I'm null on, which makes me suspicious.  My scale is severely tipped towards scum; glooble and Uncle are my two singular townreads.  I've got DatSwan sorted into town category too, but that's mostly my gut-read from day1 carrying over.

[faust]

The bigger issue is the playing off town's frustration at lynching one of the most valuable PRs (who did misplay), we should all be mad at the Robz lynch and look around to assign blame as a means of scumhunting seems to be the position faust is taking, and it's irrational and he knows it. It's manipulative.

It's not irrational to try and analyze a mislynch wagon. I never said anything about we should all be mad. This is a misrepresentation.

[faust]

The bigger issue is the playing off town's frustration at lynching one of the most valuable PRs (who did misplay), we should all be mad at the Robz lynch and look around to assign blame as a means of scumhunting seems to be the position faust is taking, and it's irrational and he knows it. It's manipulative.

also, faust saying raerae's reads and my reads were just copies from last game seemed both disingenuous and a really ham-fisted way to cast doubt on our reads.

That's two counts of faust manipulating.

Well, it was based on misremembering raerae's D1 reads. I do think you both have a bias against MiX that is not rooted in his alignment.

[faust]

Faust is 2.7ing. As in, Faust today is mimicking 2.7 of Day 1, only with Awa instead of Robz.  It’s so oddly jarring that it feels intentional.

Why would I want to do that?

[faust]

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

Awaclus is Awaclus.

Touché.

No, but seriously.

If you want something else, DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Awaclus

[Chickenwarlord]

I am almost certain at this point that either Faust or Awaclus are scum, and we won't know which one is which the bodies hit the floor.

I can definitely see the vibrant case against MiX, but I feel like the polarizing way he's been playing means it theoretically shouldn't be hard to get a bandwagon together after the next night session if the FoS still swings his way after all is said and done.

Honestly, I think Datswan's just a bit preoccupied - sure the inactivity could be scummy - but I think it's more just life being life.

I doubt we'll get any more true info as it's far too early to claim any sort of cop - especially in multiball.

[Swowl]

Apologies. Have been sick and/or busy with work.

Caught up now. To break it down....

Through the end of Day 1:

- We don't know what the set up is, and neither does the skum team. The only player that could potentially know the actual set up is the potential SK. If it is two skum teams, they are both in the dark as much as we are. I think that this makes the NK analysis a little less significant at this point. We have to jump beyond the normal WIFOM and move in to "WIFOM plus WIFOM based on what the skum teams thought". That is like WIFOM inception. Not worth it at this point imo.

- The Godfather claim - this makes no sense to me. If you are godfather and claim as town prior to your search... I just don't get it. If Town searches you then their MUST be a discussion to be had later for you to be lynched. At that point you get to claim. In this set up, there is either another claim as town or skum, or there is no other claim as skum. No reason for Town to not CC. So, Town claim just either sets up suspicion or a CC. But skum can do it knowing that the only outcome will be suspicion, followed by no CC. Also, town would have to factor in the likelihood that skum would try to CC at all, so really I just don't get it.

- I do not think the Ashes hammer is particularly skummy or towny. Null on it.

- I think the MiX vote move is strange, when they went to space and then later intent to hammer on Robz. I  say that because Robz had no presence Day 1. So while I would get "not voting Robz" originally, because you had a TR on them... what could lead to that TR?

- MiX is playing Towny through Day 1. So, all of that suspicion puts me at null when combined with that.

There was a lot more of Day 1, but those seem to be my key take away points.

Day 2 coming shortly....

[Swowl]

Follow up: My top pick based on D1 is Eddie.

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

Awaclus is Awaclus.

Touché.

No, but seriously.

If you want something else, DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

This all beyond nonsense for I assume both of you, but I at least know for faust... It is an 18 person game - SOMEONE was going to get lynched. Skum would hide off the wagon in my spot if anything. Not plant a vote and stay there. I agree with the Awaclus is Awaclus concept at this point, but the fact that you try to drag me into it is lame.

[Swowl]

Follow up: My top pick based on D1 is Eddie.

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

Awaclus is Awaclus.

Touché.

No, but seriously.

If you want something else, DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

This all beyond nonsense for I assume both of you, but I at least know for faust... It is an 18 person game - SOMEONE was going to get lynched. Skum would hide off the wagon in my spot if anything. Not plant a vote and stay there. I agree with the Awaclus is Awaclus concept at this point, but the fact that you try to drag me into it is lame.

EDIT: I just re read and realized I was thinking the wrong players were saying what I was reading in the quote. I still agree with the "Awaclus is Awaclus" bit. And I still don't think faust should be dragging me into it.... but for those reading closely.. a concept apology.

[Swowl]

My big problem with the game so far is no one is particularly towny in the way I feel comfortable completely taking them off the table.

Some players have done towny things. No players have set themselves apart as “good.” 

So I’m struggling to separate the wheat.

On Robz, yeah he def misplayed. His last post came at a time when he should have realized the risk of being lynch outweighed any benefit he thought he’d get from waiting to activate his IC.

Because of that, I can’t give the Robz mislynch any more weight than a normal mislynch.

This shouldn't seem strange to a player as experienced as you. It is a multi-ball. Town SHOULD find it hard to identify towny players because of the multiple factions. Strange for you to feel the need to mention this.

[Swowl]

all - I keep reading more and more and seeing more and more suspicion on me based on lack of content.

I had no idea that my quota was so high. Not saying it has been anything but low, but please please... not lurking. I was sick. I had wicked work shit come up. I am back in it now. If you find me skum, please find me so for a reason other than not being active.

[Swowl]

My big problem with the game so far is no one is particularly towny in the way I feel comfortable completely taking them off the table.

Some players have done towny things. No players have set themselves apart as “good.” 

So I’m struggling to separate the wheat.

On Robz, yeah he def misplayed. His last post came at a time when he should have realized the risk of being lynch outweighed any benefit he thought he’d get from waiting to activate his IC.

Because of that, I can’t give the Robz mislynch any more weight than a normal mislynch.

Well yeah, but you should still do the normal "wheat separation". People would not normally know if Robz was IC or not until he decided to announce it. From any Skum PoV, Robz was just "not on their team". Obviously, no one should factor in the fact that Robz was the IC... but I mean, you are just saying that and then also saying nothing about his mislynch. Assume Robz was VT... what would your thoughts be?

[Swowl]

The bigger issue is the playing off town's frustration at lynching one of the most valuable PRs (who did misplay), we should all be mad at the Robz lynch and look around to assign blame as a means of scumhunting seems to be the position faust is taking, and it's irrational and he knows it. It's manipulative.

also, faust saying raerae's reads and my reads were just copies from last game seemed both disingenuous and a really ham-fisted way to cast doubt on our reads.

That's two counts of faust manipulating.

I actually agree with this. This seems like Faust is attempting to promote people to fixate on something they could not have had knowledge of. Obv Robz effed up... but no one knew that until it happened.

[Swowl]

Glooble - What are your thoughts on Awaclus/Faust. Not in the context it has being talked about, that is a happenstance, I just want to know what you think.

[Swowl]

Yeah I got to go with

Vote: Eddie


If you are town!godfather then the only downside is in the late game someone CC's as skum... and as cop. It would be completely reasonable for us to assume, if it came up, that a town!cop checked the GF and got a Skum result. We would have no reason to jump to a set up claim. So, we would be left with the simplicity of whether Eddie was Skum!GF or Town!GF. If we get a CC out of it that is just gravy. This strikes me as something skum would do to avoid being looked at. Not as something town would do thinking it would help. What is to be gained of it? They claim GF.... sooooo... there is no point in checking them if you are a cop?-- This also brings up another point. Since there are gtd to be two skum teams in some form, it means the the cop checking for that faction (I think at least). Not super relevant but worth noting.


TLDR (as requested) - I cannot find a reason to claim GF in this set up on Day 1 as Town.

All in all I just don't get it. The power for Town in this set up lies in the set up... we know who exists! By claiming so early, you just create suspicion. As opposed to claiming after you are possibly copped... it only creates the same suspicion or, in a good situation, pulls a CC. Assuming all skum is smart enough to avoid the CC, as once should, why would you voice it and create the suspicion this early in the game?

[Uncleeurope]

I didn’t want to have to worry about having to claim between normal L-2 and L-1, a jump that most players don’t think about.

I didn’t want people to waste cop results.


Is your case on me is simply that you disagree with the claim? And if I was scum I wouldn’t have claimed it, I would have gotten a partner to claim it. Which I guess is technically a scenario that would work if one of my partners was the real GF... Regardless, as you saw to the reaction to my claim it didn’t dismantle suspicion from me, it added to it. And as you said, why would I claim early to create suspicion as scum? Do you think a claim is more likely as scum despite this?

I dunno what to tell you, man. Dunno why I’m the guy you are concerned with lynching out of everyone.

[Uncleeurope]

Also, can’t pull the quote on my phone here, but regarding your opinions on Ashes hammer, I don’t find the hammer to be either alignment, him assuming we would see it as scummy seems scummy to me.

[MiX]

Regardless, as you saw to the reaction to my claim it didn’t dismantle suspicion from me, it added to it.

I have to stop you right here, claiming made you completely unlynchable D1 and you know that. I don't believe you didn't know this. It was also the first thing you said, there was nothing to "add".

FoS: Uncle, for that lie. Won't vote because he's Hated and I have to reread his D1, I mostly ignored him...

[MiX]

I strongly agree with shraeye here. That whole interaction between Awaclus and MiX honestly felt staged. Like I don't see the logic in Awaclus's answers and I have a really hard time seeing where MiX finds them convincing.

Okay, this is kind of stream-of-consciousness, but reading MiX's day 2 play there is a lot of pushing something and immediately backing off when any pressure is put on that assertion. It happens with raerae, and then it happens with Awaclus even faster. My gut reaction is that that's scummy.

Okay, time to shed some light on the Awaclus thing. I had a nullread on him, Awaclus-null; that is, he did nothing and that's consistent with his meta. When he said that he was scumhunting, I asked what, exactly, he had done. He pointed to something that I fully believe town!Awaclus would think is pro-town and would do while I'm not so sure scum!Awaclus would. He also justified his vote on me well, because he didn't just say "I'm scummy" or something. So that made me townread him, because I saw things town!Awaclus does. He doesn't do much, so I have to read him based on what he actually does, you might think this is minor but it's relatively big.

If I'm pushing raerae on a (admittedly) weak case, I'm scumread ("omg he's blatantly lying to town"). If I back off, I'm scumread ("omg he's being wishywashy with his pushing and scumreads!"). Pick one, I can't do neither! I had thoughts in the night and I wanted to put them to the test, I did, they failed the test, so I backed off. Reading the Awaclus interaction as backing off is also wrong, because I never actually had a scumread on him, but I already said that above.

then he just totally missed why I voted for jimmmmm even though he apparently reread the day and explained it (incorrectly) right before asking me why I voted for jimmmm.

I knew you had sheeped faust, I just wanted to know WHY. And you answered it: lack of scumreads. So I was happy.

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

Awaclus is Awaclus.

Touché.

No, but seriously.

If you want something else, DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

LL's wagon was at 4 votes, Robz' was at 5, he could easily vote LL...actually, @Swan, why didn't you vote LL?

[Awaclus]

I am almost certain at this point that either Faust or Awaclus are scum, and we won't know which one is which the bodies hit the floor.

I'm not at all certain that either you or faust is scum.

[faust]

The bigger issue is the playing off town's frustration at lynching one of the most valuable PRs (who did misplay), we should all be mad at the Robz lynch and look around to assign blame as a means of scumhunting seems to be the position faust is taking, and it's irrational and he knows it. It's manipulative.

also, faust saying raerae's reads and my reads were just copies from last game seemed both disingenuous and a really ham-fisted way to cast doubt on our reads.

That's two counts of faust manipulating.

I actually agree with this. This seems like Faust is attempting to promote people to fixate on something they could not have had knowledge of. Obv Robz effed up... but no one knew that until it happened.

Someone knew that Roby wasn't on their team.

[faust]

LL's wagon was at 4 votes, Robz' was at 5, he could easily vote LL...actually, @Swan, why didn't you vote LL?

Yes but that is only scummy if you thinkk LaLight was scum. In which case you should vote for EFHW, not DatSwan.

[MiX]

LL's wagon was at 4 votes, Robz' was at 5, he could easily vote LL...actually, @Swan, why didn't you vote LL?

Yes but that is only scummy if you thinkk LaLight was scum. In which case you should vote for EFHW, not DatSwan.

Voting LL wouldn't lock in any lynch. Now you'll say that only matters if LL is scum, to which I reply, same thing for Awaclus' vote, except here it's only if LL/Space is scum. Am I right?

[SpaceAnemone]

TLDR (as requested) - I cannot find a reason to claim GF in this set up on Day 1 as Town.

Your argument above the "tl;dr" part is based a lot around counter-claiming (I assume that's what you're using "CC" for in this context) and ignoring the "hated" aspect. Moreover, you're ignoring the fact that by the time Eddie came into the thread and claimed, there had already been a discussion about whether Glu Dukat should claim. Do you think that pro-Dukat-claim people earlier in the thread deserve some portion of the scumpoints you're allocating to Eddie here?

Additionally, are you really expecting scum to want to counterclaim a role here, when roles are assigned independent of alignments? My gut says that would be a pretty weird move when any scum must have a guaranteed safe fakeclaim by just claiming their own role, so the fact that your suspicion on Eddie seems to be based on counterclaims seems odd. If anyone has been copped, it's a one-v-one situation in terms of who we believe (cop with guilty result or person the result is on) whether or not there are additional role-claim-stealing issues on top of it, so why would scum make things even more complicated and incriminating for themselves?

[faust]

LL's wagon was at 4 votes, Robz' was at 5, he could easily vote LL...actually, @Swan, why didn't you vote LL?

Yes but that is only scummy if you thinkk LaLight was scum. In which case you should vote for EFHW, not DatSwan.

Voting LL wouldn't lock in any lynch. Now you'll say that only matters if LL is scum, to which I reply, same thing for Awaclus' vote, except here it's only if LL/Space is scum. Am I right?

No, I just think that from a meta perspective Awaclus is way more likely to make that move as scum.

[faust]

TLDR (as requested) - I cannot find a reason to claim GF in this set up on Day 1 as Town.

Come now, I'm sure you can do better than vote for someone on a theory disagreement.

[Awaclus]

No, I just think that from a meta perspective Awaclus is way more likely to make that move as scum.

To make sure a lynch goes through?

[Glooble]

Glooble - What are your thoughts on Awaclus/Faust. Not in the context it has being talked about, that is a happenstance, I just want to know what you think.

I'm very bad at reading Awaclus, but he's null to me right now. I correctly called him as scum last game, so part of me feels that if he was scum this game I would be scumreading him, but maybe he's changed it up.

I'm not sure I agree with faust that Awaclus's wagon position is particularly scummy - I think you can certainly make the case that he felt like no other lynch was viable. I think if we're going to lynch based on wagon position it should be someone a bit earlier on the wagon. At the same time I recognize that's kind of an arbitrary line to draw. So I don't read faust's pushing of his case as scummy. On the whole I've found faust helpful this game, and I would say I give him a slight townread.

[Uncleeurope]

Regardless, as you saw to the reaction to my claim it didn’t dismantle suspicion from me, it added to it.

I have to stop you right here, claiming made you completely unlynchable D1 and you know that. I don't believe you didn't know this. It was also the first thing you said, there was nothing to "add".

FoS: Uncle, for that lie. Won't vote because he's Hated and I have to reread his D1, I mostly ignored him...

It made me unlynchable, sure, but it also increased people’s awareness of my presence, which seems like a bad trade off for a Day1 pass.

It wasn’t a lie by any stretch.


I also dislike this FoS format, it confuses me.

[MiX]

Regardless, as you saw to the reaction to my claim it didn’t dismantle suspicion from me, it added to it.

I have to stop you right here, claiming made you completely unlynchable D1 and you know that. I don't believe you didn't know this. It was also the first thing you said, there was nothing to "add".

FoS: Uncle, for that lie. Won't vote because he's Hated and I have to reread his D1, I mostly ignored him...

It made me unlynchable, sure, but it also increased people’s awareness of my presence, which seems like a bad trade off for a Day1 pass.

It wasn’t a lie by any stretch.


I also dislike this FoS format, it confuses me.

Do you truly believe scum!you would always, beyond a shadow of a doubt, try to lay low D1? If not, I fail to see how the claim would come more from town!you than scum!you, you essencially get to do whatever you want with no way for people to apply pressure on you. That looks like a really good trade off for scum, especially when there's no downside. If you truly are Gul, you know you're going to get policy lynched eventually, so postponing that as much as possible is pretty much the only thing you can do. The easiest way to do it is to become unlynchable D1, at least you're guaranteed to live a day.

And if I was scum I wouldn’t have claimed it, I would have gotten a partner to claim it.

Looking closer, this is also not true: if the real Gul gets lynched, you would die on the spot. What scum would do this tactic? Especially when the real Gul might get NKd so you can't even rely on their unlynchability. There's no way you didn't think about this, yet that's what you want it to look like.

FoS' a fun way to vote people, or would you rather me Vote: Uncle? I still haven't reread Uncle's D1 but these answers are weird for someone who had all N0 to think about how to best use their role.

[Uncleeurope]

I didn’t make the connection that killing me day1 was bad when I claimed.

And if I know I am getting policy lynched eventually, the easiest thing I can do is NEVER claim it because then it might prolong it more than a day. So I don’t get your point there.

But you are right, some versions of scum!me would claim, others would not.

Are you saying that you think you would claim as scum or town more? Do you think I would claim more as scum or town?

Regardless of any disagreement you have with me, scum!me wouldn’t lie this casually here.

And honestly, you have a direct comparison to my scum play, and it ain’t this.


And yes, I would prefer you vote me.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.3


Some flavor to come later, probably.


MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, UncleEurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
UncleEurope (2): DatSwan, MiX


Not voting (5): 2.71828....., SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, ashersky, EFHW

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

[Glooble]

joth, you missed that I'm voting for MiX.

[Glooble]

Wait no you didn't, you just also have me as not voting.

Fixed.

[jotheonah]

I meant to do that as a reply. Oops.

[Uncleeurope]

I meant to do that as a reply. Oops.

You don’t know your own strength.

[WestCoastDidds]

Holy cow!  There are still an incredible number of people in this game.  I keep getting confused about who has said what, and then other people get confused and then its all jumble-y, and the folks who arent saying much are sliding off my radar completely.

DatSwan, I am glad that you are feeling better.  Being sick sucks.

MiX, in #1045 you said LL/Space but I think you mean LL/EFHW, yeah?

I like what DatSwan is saying and I appreciate the ability to cut through the chaff.  EFHW might be able to help in that regard as well.  I also find Awaclus description of "picking up the loot" quite charming.  I sympathize with Asher saying that none of us are playing well, but I am stymied by what we/I can do better. Is there some reasonable course of action beyond re-reading 43 pages of game and trying to parse the MiX mega-posts to get going?

As for the three mini-wagons (wagonettes?) I sympathize with all of the MiX votes and it wouldn't take much to move there, but I don't really find him scummy as much as over-confident. I find Awaclus scummy enough to vote (which I did) because he is doing about as much to scumhunt as he did in the last game when he was scum.  The Eddie votes are okay by me, too.  He is coming into his own as a player and he is projecting more confidence now than when I last played with him. Could be his scum-chops have gotten better honed.

I'd like to hear what e, Space, and EFHW make of the last day or so..or anything else.

tl;dr: I feel overwhelmed. Help.

[MiX]

I didn’t make the connection that killing me day1 was bad when I claimed.

Really? I don't believe it. What did you think of the UB in N0?

And if I know I am getting policy lynched eventually, the easiest thing I can do is NEVER claim it because then it might prolong it more than a day. So I don’t get your point there.

You're right, I forgot you can just claim at L-2 on D1 to not die.

Are you saying that you think you would claim as scum or town more? Do you think I would claim more as scum or town?

I think the claim's null, I see both town and scum deciding to claim/not claim, the benefits of claiming are essencially null.

And honestly, you have a direct comparison to my scum play, and it ain’t this.

I haven't actually reread M121 past D1, maybe I should do that...

And yes, I would prefer you vote me.

I don't anymore. Vote: Swan

PPE 1

[MiX]

Something I almost forgot:

So what about those 2 quotes made you feel Robz was scummy?

Also, Jimmmmmm, LL and Space had support too, why didn't you go there? (in D1)

what were your scumreads when you voted Robz? Surely it wasn't just him, right?

Questions for chicken that I think they missed because they were buried.


Now what Didds said:

- No, I meant LL/Space, I'll start saying EFHW from now on. I also said Space because EFHW and Space were the other viable wagons when Awaclus voted.

- Is that what ash said? It's not like town's job is to look super towny to everyone all the time, the priority is catching scum, looking towny just help us win 1v1s and get people to sheep our cases.

- Can you point to moment in RMM51's D1 where Awaclus scumhunted? I'll try to find some myself.

[Uncleeurope]

I didn’t think about the UB on N0

I was busy with the other game.

[MiX]

I didn’t think about the UB on N0

I was busy with the other game.

That's a lame answer. You're lame. Now I need to read town!Uncle games too. Anyway...

Darn everything, I was planning on just coming out of the gate claiming Gul, but now because you people talked about it so much, it is much less exciting.

I claim Gul.

I am pretty sure it is the correct play as well.

How sure were you? How much did you plan?

[Uncleeurope]

I tossed around claiming vs not claiming during N0, didn’t think about anything other than that. But I can’t say that I thought about past decided I would do it. So I was sure enough to do it, and sill think it was the correct play.

And yeah, I am a lame person. I don’t think much about this game until the previous one ended. You will note I starated posting more after that point.

[EFHW]

@Eddie,  can you please summarize why it was the correct play in your mind?

[Uncleeurope]

I already did up a few posts under DatSwans case, but yeah.

I didn’t want to have to do a quick claim at L-2, and I was concerned people would accidentally lynch me.

I didn’t want people to spend cops on me.

I thought it was the most interesting play to do.

One reason for that is I wanted to see who wanted to lynch me the most, despite me being townand starting that conversation could be helpful. Because in theory scum want to lynch me over NKing me so need to keep me as a scum read regardless of anything else. Obviously that is more for my benefit now, and wanting to kill me isn’t 100% indicative of alignment, but it gives me something to do ther than being vanilla.

But the first two points are why I made the decision, the last is a perk.

[Chickenwarlord]

So what about those 2 quotes made you feel Robz was scummy?

Also, Jimmmmmm, LL and Space had support too, why didn't you go there? (in D1)

what were your scumreads when you voted Robz? Surely it wasn't just him, right?

At the time I might have voted for Jimmmmm. I did not feel that LL was scum at all. Was feeling pretty null on Space at the time who had at least been siding with WCD (who I still think has been playing pretty Station-alligned)

I was in fact decently against a lynch until Robz posted those two quotes. The first being a 'no matter how much people are discussing me, no one wants to actually throw the votes my way' and the second being a 'you shouldn't throw your vote at things that aren't going to happen' - which in this case was poetic injustice. The combination of two read as a bit of a challenge.


Eddie's last minute vote-hopping stood out as a way to keep options open, but at the time I believe the only other realistic wagon was Space, who I was definitely not down to lynch at that point.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

At the time I might have voted for Jimmmmm. I did not feel that LL was scum at all. Was feeling pretty null on Space at the time who had at least been siding with WCD (who I still think has been playing pretty Station-alligned)...

I believe the only other realistic wagon was Space, who I was definitely not down to lynch at that point.

So if you were null on Space, why didn't you want to lynch them?

Why were you townreading LL?

Does EFHW's entrance to the game change anything for you on that slot?

[WestCoastDidds]

Chicken- are you having to do a captcha every time you post?  If so, that is a huge hassle.  Go here http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=24.0 and post anything at all and then you will be able to post without the rigamarole.

[Uncleeurope]

Also, WCD, could you explain exactly why I am on your radar? Is it just the claim? Is my behavior a factor? Is it my voting?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

It's true that Robz misplayed, but that doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of having misread him.

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted.
...
Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

Another thing: faust was scumreading Jimmmmmm, people looking at NKs and looking for possible scumhunting scum might notice this. By pointing it out, faust sort of hangs a lantern on it and takes potential pressure off.

I actually agree with whoever it was (DatSwowl?) that said that NK analysis is probably less useful than average right now, but I find it scummy that faust is worried about it.

[Chickenwarlord]

So if you were null on Space, why didn't you want to lynch them?

Is null not the term used to describe no  strong read one way or another? I don't think it is all that surprising that I'd vote for somebody I strongly suspected of being scum over a new last minute bandwagon for somebody I had no feelings one way or another for.

[Swowl]

TLDR (as requested) - I cannot find a reason to claim GF in this set up on Day 1 as Town.

Your argument above the "tl;dr" part is based a lot around counter-claiming (I assume that's what you're using "CC" for in this context) and ignoring the "hated" aspect. Moreover, you're ignoring the fact that by the time Eddie came into the thread and claimed, there had already been a discussion about whether Glu Dukat should claim. Do you think that pro-Dukat-claim people earlier in the thread deserve some portion of the scumpoints you're allocating to Eddie here?

Additionally, are you really expecting scum to want to counterclaim a role here, when roles are assigned independent of alignments? My gut says that would be a pretty weird move when any scum must have a guaranteed safe fakeclaim by just claiming their own role, so the fact that your suspicion on Eddie seems to be based on counterclaims seems odd. If anyone has been copped, it's a one-v-one situation in terms of who we believe (cop with guilty result or person the result is on) whether or not there are additional role-claim-stealing issues on top of it, so why would scum make things even more complicated and incriminating for themselves?

1) I do not think anyone discussing anything set up related deserve any skum points awarded. That is not specific to this game, but to most games in general. My line is pretty clearly drawn between "talking about potentially claiming" vs "the person of that role actually claiming".

2) Example on why I think the hated part would work in favor of a skum claim:

Regardless, as you saw to the reaction to my claim it didn’t dismantle suspicion from me, it added to it.

I have to stop you right here, claiming made you completely unlynchable D1 and you know that. I don't believe you didn't know this. It was also the first thing you said, there was nothing to "add".

FoS: Uncle, for that lie. Won't vote because he's Hated and I have to reread his D1, I mostly ignored him...

3) In regards to all the counter claiming (yes that is my CC acronym) - you say "why would skum make it more complicated and incriminating?". Not to like answer a question with a question - but why would town make it more complicated and incriminating? I am not saying that I find a particularly high volume of good reasons why skum would act this way.... but I do not see reason for town to do so.

[Chickenwarlord]

Why were you townreading LL?

Does EFHW's entrance to the game change anything for you on that slot?

The biggest strike that people were bringing against lalight was inactivity. At that point alight had already prefaced the thread about their busy schedule  several times. It seemed a bit of a copout to barrel into someone for issues someone admitted readily before most of the discussion had begun. I feel like a scum\LL would have done more to push an agenda with their limited presence given the constraints.

EFHW entering changes only how I will feel about extended activity drops, seeing as this was an opt in.

[Swowl]

LL's wagon was at 4 votes, Robz' was at 5, he could easily vote LL...actually, @Swan, why didn't you vote LL?

I posted this in my VCA - but because I had to choose between the two and I liked Robz more than LL.

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, WCD, could you explain exactly why I am on your radar? Is it just the claim? Is my behavior a factor? Is it my voting?

I was commenting on the three wagonettes, which earlier today were you, MiX, and Awaclus. I do find your play more confident than in the past (but I probably am too) so I don’t know that it is necessarily scummy. Could just be increasing comfort with the game and format.

We are in one of these all too familiar places where the people doing the majority of the interaction just keep going around in circles with each other and everyone else checks in from time to time without moving us forward. I find this stage very frustrating because I don’t know how to move beyond it. Leaf water, perhaps. That might help.

[SpaceAnemone]

1) I do not think anyone discussing anything set up related deserve any skum points awarded. That is not specific to this game, but to most games in general. My line is pretty clearly drawn between "talking about potentially claiming" vs "the person of that role actually claiming".

Yes, that's exactly what I'm puzzled about. I felt like people in the game, possibly those with much more experience than Eddie, were already in agreement that Gul Dukat should claim, and yet you're scumreading him for claiming without complaining at all that it was a misguided agreement for other players to have come to, if you feel so strongly that he shouldn't have claimed.

2) Example on why I think the hated part would work in favor of a skum claim:

Regardless, as you saw to the reaction to my claim it didn’t dismantle suspicion from me, it added to it.

I have to stop you right here, claiming made you completely unlynchable D1 and you know that. I don't believe you didn't know this. It was also the first thing you said, there was nothing to "add".

The only way I think scum!Eddie would have been more likely to come out and claim that he's Gul Dukat than town!Eddie would be if it was pre-arranged with his scum faction in their QT in N0, in which case, again, I think the people facilitating the claim earlier in the thread should share in your suspicion.

3) In regards to all the counter claiming (yes that is my CC acronym) - you say "why would skum make it more complicated and incriminating?". Not to like answer a question with a question - but why would town make it more complicated and incriminating? I am not saying that I find a particularly high volume of good reasons why skum would act this way.... but I do not see reason for town to do so.

Town would not. Town should just to claim the roles they actually have if they feel the need to claim at all. I assumed with your discussion counter-claiming, you were suggesting a scenario in which Eddie is not in fact Gul Dukat at all, which is where I'm confused.

[SpaceAnemone]

That's all I've got time for tonight I'm afraid.. my band just had an album launch gig for our new CD and I'm absolutely wiped out.

[WestCoastDidds]

That's all I've got time for tonight I'm afraid.. my band just had an album launch gig for our new CD and I'm absolutely wiped out.

But how very exciting!!!

[Swowl]

Ruining said vote count by voting:

Vote: Snow

Why the switch?

Why not? I haven’t suddenly townread the guy if that’s what you are asking, he is still a suspect. Just wanted to throw a vote at Snow. I think he is the player posting the most with the least to say.

BUt we had such a good thing going!

What do you have to say about Awaclus that's scummy that doesn't apply to Swan?

I think Swan's timing was much scummier, especially because he left, Awaclus was at deadline so his vote wasn't final.

So in a non-defensive way, just want to make a point.
I voted Robz and put him at 5(6?) i can’t remember which. Regardless, i did it and said peace out I’m going to sleep. So I’m gone - as you pointed out.

For a moment, move past the comparison of me to awaclus, as it isn’t the point I’m making. I think it would be worthwhile to at least slightly focus on the fact that everyone that moved after i voted Robz knew my vote was staying there.
 I am actually not saying this to target anyone because to do so we would have to assume that one of the other wagons is skum and that is just too much WIFOM.

I guess my point is i know my vote wasn’t skum motivated, but i don’t think awaclus was either in this spot.

[Awaclus]

That's all I've got time for tonight I'm afraid.. my band just had an album launch gig for our new CD and I'm absolutely wiped out.

You should post about it in the music talk thread!

[EFHW]

I think town!Eddie had enough reasons to claim that his having done so doesn't make him scummy.

[EFHW]

Have we heard from e recently? It seemed like he was being seen as scummy Day 1. Did something change? (I promise to be more on top of events going forward,  but some help with Day 1 is appreciated.)

[EFHW]

I think town!Eddie had enough reasons to claim that his having done so doesn't make him scummy.

Don't discount the "it makes the game more interesting" factor, which Eddie also mentioned.

I may have a perplexing tendency to trust Eddie. It definitely didn't work out last time.

It's also important not to assume best play, especially with a relatively new player.  Datswan's theory seems to assume best play.

[Swowl]

I think town!Eddie had enough reasons to claim that his having done so doesn't make him scummy.

Don't discount the "it makes the game more interesting" factor, which Eddie also mentioned.

I may have a perplexing tendency to trust Eddie. It definitely didn't work out last time.

It's also important not to assume best play, especially with a relatively new player.  Datswan's theory seems to assume best play.

Yes i assume town would factor in best play.
More importantly - i am an idiot. I have been reading godfather thinking Miller this entire time.

Unvote: Eddie

All of my points make zero sense. How did no one call me on that?

[raerae]

We're heading out of town at the end of the week so I guess this is our VLA notice (I'm speaking for shraeye on this post only) and will be phone posting until March 17th, assuming I remember my dates correctly.

[raerae]

I don't sort an UncleEddie lunch, I don't think he's acting at all like he did last game, he seems to be paying looser, if that makes sense. Makes me trust him.

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

I think DatSwowl gets some townie points from me for owning up to that mistake, seems genuine.

[shraeye]

TLDR (as requested) - I cannot find a reason to claim GF in this set up on Day 1 as Town.

Come now, I'm sure you can do better than vote for someone on a theory disagreement.

Yeah, I see many posts saying this in more confusing ways.  Your overall points confuse me, but it looks like basic theory disagreement.  Swan, I'm not buying that it was a scum-move for Uncle to claim.  You should stop selling that if you want to turn a profit.

...aaand now I see your unvote.  Carry on!

[shraeye]

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

It's true that Robz misplayed, but that doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of having misread him.

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted.
...
Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

It's past my bedtime; what do you mean with all this?

[shraeye]

As for the three mini-wagons (wagonettes?) I sympathize with all of the MiX votes and it wouldn't take much to move there, but I don't really find him scummy as much as over-confident. I find Awaclus scummy enough to vote (which I did) because he is doing about as much to scumhunt as he did in the last game when he was scum.  The Eddie votes are okay by me, too.  He is coming into his own as a player and he is projecting more confidence now than when I last played with him. Could be his scum-chops have gotten better honed.

I'm in on Awaclus, sure.  But I'll jump back to MiX lickity split as well.

vote: Awaclus

[shraeye]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post? 

[raerae]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post?

Pretty sure I did and pretty sure there were two. I'll see what I can find in the bigger am hours.

[Uncleeurope]

As for the three mini-wagons (wagonettes?) I sympathize with all of the MiX votes and it wouldn't take much to move there, but I don't really find him scummy as much as over-confident. I find Awaclus scummy enough to vote (which I did) because he is doing about as much to scumhunt as he did in the last game when he was scum.  The Eddie votes are okay by me, too.  He is coming into his own as a player and he is projecting more confidence now than when I last played with him. Could be his scum-chops have gotten better honed.

I'm in on Awaclus, sure.  But I'll jump back to MiX lickity split as well.

vote: Awaclus

I have to say, this vote threw me, wasn’t expecting you to throw your vote there. Would you mind explaining why you suspect Awaclus?

[Uncleeurope]

I think town!Eddie had enough reasons to claim that his having done so doesn't make him scummy.

Don't discount the "it makes the game more interesting" factor, which Eddie also mentioned.

I may have a perplexing tendency to trust Eddie. It definitely didn't work out last time.

It's also important not to assume best play, especially with a relatively new player.  Datswan's theory seems to assume best play.

Yes i assume town would factor in best play.
More importantly - i am an idiot. I have been reading godfather thinking Miller this entire time.

Unvote: Eddie

All of my points make zero sense. How did no one call me on that?

That is hilarious, I had no idea what you were talking about. I actually was giving you loads of scum points for it too.

[faust]

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

It's true that Robz misplayed, but that doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of having misread him.

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted.
...
Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

Is there some sort of point you wanted to make with this or do you just find me very quotable?

[faust]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

Another thing: faust was scumreading Jimmmmmm, people looking at NKs and looking for possible scumhunting scum might notice this. By pointing it out, faust sort of hangs a lantern on it and takes potential pressure off.

I think I already talked D1 about how I don't think scum wants to kill off lynchable players. I mean I guess I could have lied about this as scum, but what's the point? Scum doesn't want to lie more than necessary.

[ashersky]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

Another thing: faust was scumreading Jimmmmmm, people looking at NKs and looking for possible scumhunting scum might notice this. By pointing it out, faust sort of hangs a lantern on it and takes potential pressure off.

I think I already talked D1 about how I don't think scum wants to kill off lynchable players. I mean I guess I could have lied about this as scum, but what's the point? Scum doesn't want to lie more than necessary.

You scumreading Jimmmm and hypothetical scum not wanting to NK him because he is “lynchable” are not the same thing.

Unless you are saying that as scum. Then it is the same thing. I think this is one of those scumthoughts being spoken as a normal thing accidentally. 

Good enough for a vote: faust at this point.

[faust]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

Another thing: faust was scumreading Jimmmmmm, people looking at NKs and looking for possible scumhunting scum might notice this. By pointing it out, faust sort of hangs a lantern on it and takes potential pressure off.

I think I already talked D1 about how I don't think scum wants to kill off lynchable players. I mean I guess I could have lied about this as scum, but what's the point? Scum doesn't want to lie more than necessary.

You scumreading Jimmmm and hypothetical scum not wanting to NK him because he is “lynchable” are not the same thing.

Unless you are saying that as scum. Then it is the same thing. I think this is one of those scumthoughts being spoken as a normal thing accidentally. 

Good enough for a vote: faust at this point.

Of course I have written this to show that the scum!me perspective does not make sense. UoS was implying that I might be scum who NKed Jimmmmm. I am pointing out that scum!me would not have killed Jimmmmm. I don't understand why you think that makes me scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post?

Faust commented in one of his posts that he thinks I have an anti-MiX bias that isn't alignment-related. I agreed that I probably do, and said it's why I haven't voted for MiX so far in D2 because I don't want to let that bias get in the way of good analysis. I also posted an "if I were to be very generous to MiX I could read it this way" sort of interpretation of the way he'd misrepresented raerae, though I thought I'd finished that post off by saying I didn't actually believe it. (Sorry for being vague; I'm work-posting while waiting for some data to copy, but I don't have time to go quoting stuff right now!).

PPE 2 because this post has been sitting in a browser tab for a while because work has been happening.

[2.71828.....]

Way behind, apologize. Will catch up soon

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Eddie's claim makes sense to me and it's weird that we're still talking about it, even if some of that turns out to have been a misunderstanding.

It's terrible for town cops to investigate, get a useless result, and claim it. Outing cops is bad.

It's also silly to automatically lynch him early in the game, it likely makes sense to lynch him strategically before LYLO, but it's possible everyone has a strong townread on him for some reason, or that scum kill him, particularly with the Bus Drive in the game, or that he's lynched for legitimate case reasons, in which case we get way more information from his lynch.

[WestCoastDidds]

I have very little to add to the current conversations because today is my busy work day, but I got tickets to the women's world cup matches that I wanted to see this morning, so I am doing the dance of joy!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Robz should have claimed, not going to apologize for anything about the wagon yesterday, time to find scum today

It's true that Robz misplayed, but that doesn't absolve you from the responsibility of having misread him.

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted.
...
Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

DatSwan voted for Robz at the last minute (because it was the last time he could post before deadline), so it kind of makes sense to switch to a big wagon if you are worried about not getting enough votes to lynch.

Awaclus could still have switched later, but decided to lock in the Robz wagon.

It's past my bedtime; what do you mean with all this?

I was pointing out how faust has been treating Awaclus and e, playing into that feeling expressed by various other people being frustrated about the Robz lynch. It's not just innocently hunting for scum on a mislynch wagon, it's manipulation.

And by the way, it doesn't matter whether a wagon is on town or scum, it matters if the wagon was towny and righteous or scummy and gross. Lynching Robz the Innocent Child was towny and righteous and I'd do it again. My instinct coming into this day was to hunt off wagon.

[faust]

Eddie's claim makes sense to me and it's weird that we're still talking about it

*keeps talking about it*

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.4


"Ensign Nog, reporting for duty sir," the young Ferengi says.

"As you were, Ensign," Dax says with a hint of a smile. "Welcome to Ops. I'm sorry you had to miss the services."

"No problem, sir. Ferengi honor our dead in our own way. And I've already put in the high bid for Jake's personal things and desiccated remains."

"You might find that ... doesn't work that way," Dax says, but the ensign looks skeptical.


MiX (3): raerae, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, UncleEurope, shraeye
faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX

Not voting (5): 2.71828....., SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, EFHW, DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

Your mod will be V/LA from Friday night to Sunday night. Currently seeking a backup mod (not from among players) to do some vote counts. I will be back at deadline.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Eddie's claim makes sense to me and it's weird that we're still talking about it

*keeps talking about it*

I wish there were a way to fit this into a signature that wouldn't look like garbage.

[MiX]

And by the way, it doesn't matter whether a wagon is on town or scum, it matters if the wagon was towny and righteous or scummy and gross. Lynching Robz the Innocent Child was towny and righteous and I'd do it again. My instinct coming into this day was to hunt off wagon.

Hammering was towny. Trying to lynch him in the first place was not. He literally did nothing scummy, everything was null. I know, I know, obvious now, but I do stand by it. It was just a way to get an easy lynch done and pretty much everyone on it was just sheeping e with no real opinions. This is why I was somewhat scumreading e, but it's not his problem, it's the people sheeping him. And of those, you're the main culprit. Unfortunatly, there's more town than scum doing it, so I can't pinpoint where exactly scum is, but I'm pretty sure at least 1 scum's in the initial part of his wagon, because of how easy it was to build up with a SINGLE case. But I digress.


So, hmm...here's an interesting fact...did anyone mention shraeye's end of D1 behaviour? Mostly him moving from ash to LL and then dissapearing...that was weird.

@shraeye, what happened around deadline? Why did you dissapear?

[faust]

Hammering was towny.

Why? Do you know ashersky's meta?

[MiX]

Hammering was towny.

Why? Do you know ashersky's meta?

What? I meant getting a lynch done...and no, I guess not, I haven't read ash games other than RMM51, or at least I haven't reread any...

[faust]

Hammering was towny.

Why? Do you know ashersky's meta?

What? I meant getting a lynch done...and no, I guess not, I haven't read ash games other than RMM51, or at least I haven't reread any...

Okay then, why is getting a lynch done towny?

[MiX]

Hammering was towny.

Why? Do you know ashersky's meta?

What? I meant getting a lynch done...and no, I guess not, I haven't read ash games other than RMM51, or at least I haven't reread any...

Okay then, why is getting a lynch done towny?

Because we get information? If we had all that D1 just for no lynch we wouldn't have the information that Robz was town, so there wasn't much to analyze about the wagon.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Interesting. So why was it scummy to vote Robz before the hammer?

[faust]

Hammering was towny.

Why? Do you know ashersky's meta?

What? I meant getting a lynch done...and no, I guess not, I haven't read ash games other than RMM51, or at least I haven't reread any...

Okay then, why is getting a lynch done towny?

Because we get information? If we had all that D1 just for no lynch we wouldn't have the information that Robz was town, so there wasn't much to analyze about the wagon.

Would you say that it would be better for scum if Robz hadn't been lynched?

[MiX]

Interesting. So why was it scummy to vote Robz before the hammer?

Hmm...because it wasn't obvious that he was the only one that was going to get lynched that day? By the time ash hammered no other wagon was happening. And since Robz was null (to me at least) it was better than no lynch.

Hammering was towny.

Why? Do you know ashersky's meta?

What? I meant getting a lynch done...and no, I guess not, I haven't read ash games other than RMM51, or at least I haven't reread any...

Okay then, why is getting a lynch done towny?

Because we get information? If we had all that D1 just for no lynch we wouldn't have the information that Robz was town, so there wasn't much to analyze about the wagon.

Would you say that it would be better for scum if Robz hadn't been lynched?

Yes. Of course he was IC so no, but without knowing that, yes.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Is there a reason to think votes on mcmcsalot and jimmmmmmmmmmmmmmm are townier than votes on Robz?

[EFHW]

Where has Glooble gotten to?

[Uncleeurope]

Interesting that MiX backed off twice (IIRC) from people but is holding a vote on DatSwowl despite recent occurrences.

Don’t know what to make of that.

[shraeye]

Okay then, why is getting a lynch done towny?

Because we get information? If we had all that D1 just for no lynch we wouldn't have the information that Robz was town, so there wasn't much to analyze about the wagon.

Siggghhh; I disagree with this in general.  And in this particular case, it's not even true that we would be info-less on Robz.

[shraeye]

So, hmm...here's an interesting fact...did anyone mention shraeye's end of D1 behaviour? Mostly him moving from ash to LL and then dissapearing...that was weird.

@shraeye, what happened around deadline? Why did you dissapear?

Are you kidding me right now? 

[shraeye]

Interesting that MiX backed off twice (IIRC) from people but is holding a vote on DatSwowl despite recent occurrences.

Don’t know what to make of that.

I think it's because he got called out for backing off of people, and is now hyper-conscious of it

[shraeye]

As for the three mini-wagons (wagonettes?) I sympathize with all of the MiX votes and it wouldn't take much to move there, but I don't really find him scummy as much as over-confident. I find Awaclus scummy enough to vote (which I did) because he is doing about as much to scumhunt as he did in the last game when he was scum.  The Eddie votes are okay by me, too.  He is coming into his own as a player and he is projecting more confidence now than when I last played with him. Could be his scum-chops have gotten better honed.

I'm in on Awaclus, sure.  But I'll jump back to MiX lickity split as well.

vote: Awaclus

I have to say, this vote threw me, wasn’t expecting you to throw your vote there. Would you mind explaining why you suspect Awaclus?

Many of the reasons for the vote; first, day was stalling out.  Second, big games require more than one person to give up on their scumread #1 and be willing to consider #2, #3 or even #4. 

Third, because Awaclus IS one of my scumreads:
-gut feeling that the lukerish attitude on Day1 was bad lurking

-His claims of Day1 scumhunting just ring so false.  "I did something weird"...yeah but no followup, no analysis, no cases, no trying to convince anyone of his ideas.  So, I pointed this out.  Awaclus says "REAL townies would do the legwork for themselves."  That's the attitude that has us spinning our wheels right now; if every person just analyzes silently in their head, we'll get so many different versions of a big picture that it will reduce to wagons stalling out at 2-3 people until the final 12 hours where suddenly everybody goes "oh shit!" and starts moving votes randomly and without caring whose wagon they're on.  And then we give out town-passes to everybody in that scramble because #alwayslynch. 
If Awaclus wants a lynch that badly, he should be driving discussion towards his preferences.  If he's not, then he really doesn't care who dies.  And that's scummy.

-weird interaction with MiX

[Glooble]

Where has Glooble gotten to?

Day job has been killing me this week, haven’t had time to reread. I don’t have any strong scumreads, which is making it hard for me to devote the energy to pushing a case. But ugh- six hours with no activity at all? We are stalling out just before deadline with nothing approaching a consensus and that did not end well for us day one. We need to step up our game in a big way.

[MiX]

So, hmm...here's an interesting fact...did anyone mention shraeye's end of D1 behaviour? Mostly him moving from ash to LL and then dissapearing...that was weird.

@shraeye, what happened around deadline? Why did you dissapear?

Are you kidding me right now?

Did you mention this earlier? I didn't find it. But I admit I could be wrong...I did look for it this time, but mistakes happen.

- He said that he was V/LA for half of D1, this plus Awaclus' usual activity gives the impression that he was heavily lurking.

- Good point: Awaclus, if you had to take something out of your vote on e, what would it be? If nothing then your move was pointless.

- I fail to see how that would implicate anyone but me? His interaction's null (his answers are towny, however).

[Glooble]

I’m going to reread Awaclus real quick, hopefully that gets us somewhere. Given that he seems to be the lynch we’re crystallizing around right now. On mobile so fewer quotes then usual.

In RMM51, it definitely helped scum a ton that a lot of information was available and that a lot of it was true. We were a lot e to make very informed decisions most nights.

This is the post that made me start townreading Awaclus. I’m just not sure I see scum Awaclus sharing this rather than pet town dog their own graves as it were. But he could also just have done it for towncred I suppose.

Next notable thing he does is vote for ash after saying he was super behind and catching up, which ash calls out. It’s a little scummy I guess.

Nothing really comes of his catching up- a quick vote on e without much explanation (okay, this is the e vote we’ve been talking about, wow is that a weak case for Awaclus scumhunting), a little commenting on the MiX/Didds unpleasantness and then the Robz vote that we’ve discussed to death.

On to day 2.

That was quick day 2 Awaclus has basically just defended himself the whole day. And voted for MiX. I can see where this wagon is coming from. It’s a scummy defense for sure.

I’m onboard. Totally willing to switch my vote to Awaclus, although I am going to try and make time to reread Faust first, maybe on the this morning. I’m going back to sleep for an hour. I’m sorry I’ve sucked day two.

[Glooble]

vote: Awaclus

I was going to hold off because this brings the MiX wagon down to two and starts to make non-Awaclus votes seem like a fool’s errand. But I’m confident enough now in my scumread to do that.

We have just over 24 hours. Five people still aren’t voting at all.

[SpaceAnemone]

We have just over 24 hours. Five people still aren’t voting at all.

Huh? The most recent vote count said that the deadline is 8am forum time on Monday. It's currently just after 5am forum time on Friday. That's more than 24 hours even if you use funny maths for weekends.

[Awaclus]

[quote author=shraeye link=topic=19459.msg793485#msg793485
-His claims of Day1 scumhunting just ring so false.  "I did something weird"...yeah but no followup, no analysis, no cases, no trying to convince anyone of his ideas.
[/quote]

Yeah so I did the pro-town part without doing the part that helps scum more than it helps us.

[MiX]

vote: Awaclus

What's Awaclus's scum meta? My spidey senses tell me this is the wagon I need to go to not get lynched, but I really don't see these arguments not applying to town!Awaclus.

Everyone can answer this, and please don't just use RMM51, I would like more.

PPE 1: You won't help town if we lynch you because you didn't give us information.

[Awaclus]

- Good point: Awaclus, if you had to take something out of your vote on e, what would it be? If nothing then your move was pointless.

It was something. I'm not going to tell you though because you're scum.

[Glooble]

We have just over 24 hours. Five people still aren’t voting at all.

Huh? The most recent vote count said that the deadline is 8am forum time on Monday. It's currently just after 5am forum time on Friday. That's more than 24 hours even if you use funny maths for weekends.

For some reason I was thinking day would end a week from when day one ended. I forgot about the night.

That makes me feel a lot better.

[faust]

We have just over 24 hours. Five people still aren’t voting at all.

Huh? The most recent vote count said that the deadline is 8am forum time on Monday. It's currently just after 5am forum time on Friday. That's more than 24 hours even if you use funny maths for weekends.

Hey Space, how about you vote for someone? Or at least share some thoughts beyond deadline times.

[MiX]

- Good point: Awaclus, if you had to take something out of your vote on e, what would it be? If nothing then your move was pointless.

It was something. I'm not going to tell you though because you're scum.

You're not in your scum QT, everyone will see what you say, not just me. Also, that's such an easy way to weasel out of answering that it looks scummy. But is it? Why is your meta a mess?

[Awaclus]

You're not in your scum QT, everyone will see what you say, not just me. Also, that's such an easy way to weasel out of answering that it looks scummy. But is it? Why is your meta a mess?

Yeah, the other scum will see it too. I'm not weaseling out of answering anything, I'd legit rather self-hammer than let scum know my thought process behind voting for e.

[MiX]

You're not in your scum QT, everyone will see what you say, not just me. Also, that's such an easy way to weasel out of answering that it looks scummy. But is it? Why is your meta a mess?

Yeah, the other scum will see it too. I'm not weaseling out of answering anything, I'd legit rather self-hammer than let scum know my thought process behind voting for e.

That is, quite literally, the definition of anti-town. Because you just told me what you don't want to say in a very obvious way. However, if I am, indeed, correct, then you can't say more. But dying with that information is absolutely pointless. So, make a compelling case on your top scumread (me?) or you're probably getting lynched anyway, so you can say your thought process.

Is that a good deal? Is this how people handle Awaclus? He's weird.

[Awaclus]

So, make a compelling case on your top scumread (me?) or you're probably getting lynched anyway, so you can say your thought process.

No.

[MiX]

FoS: Awaclus, I give up, someone else make sense of this. I'm assuming he's always playing a gambit? And it's the same one everytime? But I don't see why anyone would do this.

By the way, still on Swowl because of VCA shenanigans, I'll try to make a post about it later today when I'm at a computer.

[Awaclus]

FoS: Awaclus, I give up, someone else make sense of this. I'm assuming he's always playing a gambit? And it's the same one everytime? But I don't see why anyone would do this.

Because it's extremely important for scum to have as little information as possible.

[Glooble]

FoS: Awaclus, I give up, someone else make sense of this. I'm assuming he's always playing a gambit? And it's the same one everytime? But I don't see why anyone would do this.

Because it's extremely important for scum to have as little information as possible.

So if you had your way everyone would just vote and no one would ever explain their votes? How would we ever form reads?

I can’t get in Awaclus’s head. But Last game I took the “well other people say he’s just like this” thing to heart and it lost us the game so this time I’m happy to lynch him.

[Awaclus]

So if you had your way everyone would just vote and no one would ever explain their votes? How would we ever form reads?

1) Yes
2) By scumhunting.

[MiX]

So if you had your way everyone would just vote and no one would ever explain their votes? How would we ever form reads?

1) Yes
2) By scumhunting.

Do you scumhunt...by voting? And that's helpful because...? With no opinions, votes are shallow, meaningless, random. Your strategy works because others talk about things and react to votes with words. If everyone only voted town would never win, the odds are stacked against us, we need to overcome those with reads, which always come from talking, from sharing information, thought processes, reasons to vote.

Arguing with Awaclus is pointless. I tried to view his playstyle as pro-town, tried to understand his reasoning...but there is none.

Because it's extremely important for scum to have as little information as possible.

Town also needs information. Okay I'll stop now.

[SpaceAnemone]

We have just over 24 hours. Five people still aren’t voting at all.

Huh? The most recent vote count said that the deadline is 8am forum time on Monday. It's currently just after 5am forum time on Friday. That's more than 24 hours even if you use funny maths for weekends.

Hey Space, how about you vote for someone? Or at least share some thoughts beyond deadline times.

My main reason for not voting is that I don't have time to do a serious re-read and come up with anything original till tomorrow at the earliest, and I'm not happy sheeping any of the cases I've seen. That's also my reason for being aware of when the deadline is, because I want to have time to contribute but I'm running surprisingly close to exhaustion just now because of life in general.

Question for you, faust: What did you think of my comment that it would be useful to have baseline numbers for the likelihood of at least one scum in a set of n players? Do you agree that it would be town-useful info to have? If so, have you not followed up on it because you too are sorely strapped for time? Or do you think it's more useful to scum than town, but for some reason have decided not to scumread me for suggesting that it would be useful?

PPE 7 because work.

[Awaclus]

Do you scumhunt...by voting? And that's helpful because...? With no opinions, votes are shallow, meaningless, random. Your strategy works because others talk about things and react to votes with words. If everyone only voted town would never win, the odds are stacked against us, we need to overcome those with reads, which always come from talking, from sharing information, thought processes, reasons to vote.

Yes, you scumhunt by voting and looking at how people react. The only reason why the odds are stacked against town is that everyone always tells scum exactly what they need to do in order to counterplay us, but that's a choice you can stop making.

Town also needs information. Okay I'll stop now.

Yes, but you shouldn't go shouting your most valuable secrets to everyone without thinking just because "hurr durr town needs information". There's information that benefits town and there's information that doesn't. Whatever I think about the e wagon is in the latter category, and the fact that the e wagon formed and people reacted to it is in the former.

[MiX]

Why did you answer me?

[Awaclus]

Why did you answer me?

If you don't like it, don't read it.

[MiX]

Why did you answer me?

If you don't like it, don't read it.

That didn't answer my question.

[faust]

Question for you, faust: What did you think of my comment that it would be useful to have baseline numbers for the likelihood of at least one scum in a set of n players? Do you agree that it would be town-useful info to have? If so, have you not followed up on it because you too are sorely strapped for time? Or do you think it's more useful to scum than town, but for some reason have decided not to scumread me for suggesting that it would be useful?

I don't think it is particularly useful for anyone. It doesn't hurt, but man there are better things you could do with your time. Calculating the expected number of scum in the setup is already nontrivial because you have to factor in that we had 2 town kills, which makes SK more likely.

[Chickenwarlord]

Yeah, the other scum will see it too. I'm not weaseling out of answering anything, I'd legit rather self-hammer than let scum know my thought process behind voting for e.

Now let us all ponder over what was meant by this. What possible information (besides your role) on night 0 could you have had to share that would have given scum an advantage? I feel like I'm missing one or two steps in this logic train.

In other news, all 3 bandwagons with more than one vote look pretty good to me, especially for information gathering purposes, so for Now I'll VOTE:MiX to keep things relatively even between our frontrunners for our other undecided people in the audience.

[Chickenwarlord]

Of course I have written this to show that the scum!me perspective does not make sense. UoS was implying that I might be scum who NKed Jimmmmm. I am pointing out that scum!me would not have killed Jimmmmm. I don't understand why you think that makes me scum.

Faust raises an interesting point here to keep in mind for future NKs. With two scumteams- it becomes easier for them to frame specific people from outside of whatever scumteam is making their group decision. I definitelywanted to have that angle messing up my head. Thanks Faust, I hate it.

[MiX]

I was in fact decently against a lynch until Robz posted those two quotes. The first being a 'no matter how much people are discussing me, no one wants to actually throw the votes my way' and the second being a 'you shouldn't throw your vote at things that aren't going to happen' - which in this case was poetic injustice. The combination of two read as a bit of a challenge.

And why was this scummy? Sorry for not asking earlier, had other priorities and forgot.

PPE 1

[Awaclus]

Why did you answer me?

If you don't like it, don't read it.

That didn't answer my question.

Oh. Well I answered you because I'm trying to win this game.

[Glooble]

I'm sorry MiX, I am going to keep trying to argue with Awaclus, because otherwise he's just going to be this constant source of confusion to me every time we play a game together.

Awaclus, I'm genuinely curious about what sort of analysis you consider to be pro-town. Because your whole defense of your own play seems to be: you voted for e to see how people would react, but to analyze those reactions would somehow give information that would be more useful to scum than to town. Which gives you cover for not explaining any further why that move was helpful because, by your own logic, to do so will only help scum.

But, here's the thing: aside from hidden information - our roles, any investigate results we might have gotten, etc. - what exactly is there that we don't want scum to know? Like, how does it help scum to know what townies think about you and e? I'm really, really not seeing it.

So just to give you the benefit of the doubt, let's look at the fall out of the oh-so-important e vote. (It's on page 19 if anyone wants to follow along.)

e is at 3 votes when Awaclus votes.

Didds votes e shortly thereafter, bringing that wagon to 5. It's not clear if Awaclus's vote had any impact on her decision to do this, but that's certainly some pressure on e.

Shortly thereafter the conversation shifts to me being scummy, there's a little bit of conversation on pages 20 and 21 where an e lynch is considered in a way it maybe wouldn't be being considered without Awaclus's vote but that's hard to say. Then e votes Robz and the Robz wagon starts.

I admit, this actually does make e look worse to me. I hadn't realized before that e had five votes on him already when he started that wagon. My initial thought of "scum e wouldn't push a wagon this hard day one" loses a little weight if he started the wagon when he was already one of the biggest lynch possibilities. But people start moving off of e pretty quickly after that, and he continues to push the Robz case.

I don't see how any of this is more helpful for scum to know than for town to know though. I'm happy to keep my vote on Awaclus until he starts making sense.


PPE 4

[Awaclus]

Now let us all ponder over what was meant by this. What possible information (besides your role) on night 0 could you have had to share that would have given scum an advantage? I feel like I'm missing one or two steps in this logic train.

This is Day 2, not Night 0. Specifically the information that I have that would give scum an advantage is "what I personally think about the e wagon".

Also you (might) need to have a space in between the colon and the name of whoever you're voting for. I don't know if joth cares about that but most mods won't count a vote unless it's in the correct format, including the space.

[WestCoastDidds]

Why did you answer me?

In my experience, Awaclus is super frustrating because he is cryptic and contributes only as much as he thinks is necessary. But, he always answers direct questions, but usually just the question. This is how I know he likes tarantulas and doesn’t have a pet...

[WestCoastDidds]

Chicken, when you vote, include a space after the colon. Oddly specific, I know, but that’s how they do.

[Glooble]

Here's my main problem with Awaclus's reasoning right now.

More discussion means scum is forced to lie more. They have to think about the information they have versus the information they're supposed to have, and sometimes they mess up. They have to justify their votes, and if their real reason for voting is help their own wincon, they have to come up with a lie. The more we force scum to lie, the more likely we are to catch them in a lie.

So letting each town player draw they're own conclusions and encouraging votes with no explanation attached just lets scum hide. I know Awaclus knows this, so it feels to me like Awaclus is just trying to justify his own scummy behavior and enable scummy behavior from others.

[WestCoastDidds]

I think it is super weird that Lalight was contributing more than EFHW has.

[MiX]

This is Day 2, not Night 0. Specifically the information that I have that would give scum an advantage is "what I personally think about the e wagon".

But before you said:

I'd legit rather self-hammer than let scum know my thought process behind voting for e.

Related?

PPE 4

[Chickenwarlord]

And why was this scummy? Sorry for not asking earlier, had other priorities and forgot.

It wasn't scummy in and of itself - but the first was a rather a poor choice of words to throw out when the populace at large already had moderate suspicion on him. The second - the call to action- just made me consider that if I was going to vote I should do it for something that was logically going to be chosen. Literally no one else had jumped on my no lynch wagon, even other people in the thread that had made arguments for no lynch weren't putting their money where their discourse was.
Was it a bit of a sheep move to vote Robz there? Absolutely. Was I already thinking about it at that point? Also yes.

[Awaclus]

But, here's the thing: aside from hidden information - our roles, any investigate results we might have gotten, etc. - what exactly is there that we don't want scum to know? Like, how does it help scum to know what townies think about you and e? I'm really, really not seeing it.

We don't want scum to know:

1) what mistakes they're making
2) how much they can trust that we'll vote for a mislynch vs. push for a scum lynch
3) how much they can trust that some of us with PRs will use them in certain ways

Concretely, in RMM51, we knew some of that stuff, and took or tried to take advantage of all of it. I realized that I would benefit from switching to a more engaged, quasi-helpful style of posting because town pretty much outright told me that, which I did and it worked. We were able to e.g. kill Haddock right at the moment when he was running out of false scum reads and probably would have gone after the real scum next but we pre-emptively stopped that from happening and didn't even look suspicious in doing so. And then we made a mistake in assuming how WCD would use her role and that put us into a more difficult position for the final day. 

[Awaclus]

This is Day 2, not Night 0. Specifically the information that I have that would give scum an advantage is "what I personally think about the e wagon".

But before you said:

I'd legit rather self-hammer than let scum know my thought process behind voting for e.

Related?

PPE 4

I misspoke.

[Awaclus]

They have to justify their votes, and if their real reason for voting is help their own wincon, they have to come up with a lie. The more we force scum to lie, the more likely we are to catch them in a lie.

So letting each town player draw they're own conclusions and encouraging votes with no explanation attached just lets scum hide. I know Awaclus knows this, so it feels to me like Awaclus is just trying to justify his own scummy behavior and enable scummy behavior from others.

I think it's trivial for scum to come up with a believable fake reason why they're voting the way they do.

[Chickenwarlord]

I misspoke.

With this, your logic makes more sense certainly, but not enough to throw off suspicion.

[EFHW]

Is that a good deal? Is this how people handle Awaclus? He's weird.

This is how Awaclus responds to questions. Not really alignment indicative, unfortunately.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

MiX, is that really your best scumread? DatSwowl’s timing regarding the end of the day? That seems unlike you.

[MiX]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

MiX, is that really your best scumread? DatSwowl’s timing regarding the end of the day? That seems unlike you.

I ran out of scumreads. Well, that aren't related to the VCA. It's sad, I know...this is why I wasn't moving from Swan.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: MiX

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

Vobe: Uncle

Two can play that game!

[Glooble]

I think it is super weird that Lalight was contributing more than EFHW has.

It is kinda weird. You've had plenty of time to catch up, EFHW. What caught your eye? Who are you scumreading? Which argument do you think was the stupidest?

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.5


Gul Dukat sends Worf a helpful message from his guest quarters.

"Mr. Worf,

I was administrator of this station for a number of years, you know. Please do let me know if there's anything you need help figuring out. I know the heating controls in your new office can be quite finicky. Alternately, I'd be happy to take over the position.

At your service,
Gul Dukat"

Worf facepalms.


MiX (4): raerae, Awaclus, chickenwarlord, UncleEurope
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, shraeye, Glooble
faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX

Not voting (5): 2.71828....., SpaceAnemone, EFHW, DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

Your mod will be V/LA from Friday night to Sunday night. Currently seeking a backup mod (not from among players) to do some vote counts. I will be back at deadline.

For the record, I don't care about the space, but I will not be accepting Vobes.

[EFHW]

I am contributing, where I have things to say. I am just very succinct! I gave up on rereading the thread, though. It was too much of a slog. So I don't have many things to say about the past. I am planning to do targeted rereads of you and e.

[MiX]

I am contributing, where I have things to say. I am just very succinct! I gave up on rereading the thread, though. It was too much of a slog. So I don't have many things to say about the past. I am planning to do targeted rereads of you and e.

You should absolutely reread me faust and Awaclus too, otherwise you'll be useless today.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

You also haven't said much about the present, EFHW. Do you think I'm nuts about Faust or onto something? What do you think of MiX choosing to not say something for once when I brought up the Jimmmmmmmmm and mcmc votes vs Robz votes question?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

For what it's worth, I somewhat agree with Awaclus, I just think the sweet spot is more where I am. Of course, I would think that.

[MiX]

What do you think of MiX choosing to not say something for once when I brought up the Jimmmmmmmmm and mcmc votes vs Robz votes question?

Not only did you not specify that you meant to ask me, that question brings too much WIFOM about what the scumteam are thinking about. The other questions were much more practical.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Explain how it increases wifom?

[MiX]

Explain how it increases wifom?

I meant that the question can't be answered without knowing exactly what the scumteam(s) are thinking about. It's all about whatever plan they have, which is something I have no clue about. It resides on "would scum vote for someone and then kill them?" which is a question I wouldn't even know how to begin answering.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I meant that they are wagons on people who have flipped town.

[MiX]

I meant that they are wagons on people who have flipped town.

Oh. That means nothing, most wagons are on people that flip town...next wall post will say what I think of the Robz wagon, it's all about positioning and timing, just "being" on a wagon gives no information. So, no, that question makes no sense.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

...
This is kind of my point. And yet it still feels like you're missing my point.

[EFHW]

I am contributing, where I have things to say. I am just very succinct! I gave up on rereading the thread, though. It was too much of a slog. So I don't have many things to say about the past. I am planning to do targeted rereads of you and e.

You should absolutely reread me faust and Awaclus too, otherwise you'll be useless today.

I can't possibly reread you. That's why I had to stop. My tl;dr comment was mostly meant for you. You have an entertaining, lively way of writing, but it's really hard to get through a lot at once.

[EFHW]

You also haven't said much about the present, EFHW. Do you think I'm nuts about Faust or onto something? What do you think of MiX choosing to not say something for once when I brought up the Jimmmmmmmmm and mcmc votes vs Robz votes question?

I did consider the faust question and decided I disagreed. Mix seems to have backed off posting in general and the question doesn't seem very meaningful to me. Maybe you can explain what you trying to get at?

[EFHW]

I am contributing, where I have things to say. I am just very succinct! I gave up on rereading the thread, though. It was too much of a slog. So I don't have many things to say about the past. I am planning to do targeted rereads of you and e.

You should absolutely reread me faust and Awaclus too, otherwise you'll be useless today.

I've already not been useless today.

[MiX]

...
This is kind of my point. And yet it still feels like you're missing my point.

If you want me to tell you things, you might find it helpful to actually ask the questions you mean to ask instead of going around the subject. I have no idea what you mean by this post and if I missed your point, how could it be "kind of" your point? I don't get it...

I am contributing, where I have things to say. I am just very succinct! I gave up on rereading the thread, though. It was too much of a slog. So I don't have many things to say about the past. I am planning to do targeted rereads of you and e.

You should absolutely reread me faust and Awaclus too, otherwise you'll be useless today.

I can't possibly reread you. That's why I had to stop. My tl;dr comment was mostly meant for you. You have an entertaining, lively way of writing, but it's really hard to get through a lot at once.

Understandable. But I have no idea how to summarize my posts, they're usually a bunch of seperate points that are, well, hard to summarize? I have no idea how to get a good short conclusion from my posts that I actually want to share, most of them state how I'm shaping my reads and I have no intent to make that obvious to everyone.

PPE 2

[MiX]

VCA! Let's see our end-of-D1 vote count:

LaLight (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Robz888 (10): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (1): LaLight
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

From this, we can seperate these voters into several groups:

• Robz wagon: 2.71, Didds, UoS, Space, chicken, Swan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm, ash
• LL/Space wagons: shraeye, Robz, raerae, faust, Uncle, MiX
• None of the above: raerae, mcmc, LL

I'm seperating the LL/Space wagons because I think those were the other realistic options besides Robz (if anyone feels like 2.71 or Jimmmmm should go there I'll make a post with them too).

We can further seperate this if we look at the vote count when Robz was the only one getting lynched, that is, after Swan's vote:

LaLight (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Robz888 (6): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, Awaclus
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
SpaceAnemone (2): faust, Uncleeurope

Since the lynch was guaranteed here, we can ignore votes after this. The 2.71 vote's also irrelevent for the Robz wagon: it's better if we remove him from that group to make conclusions. We can also add Uncle to the Robz list because of his vote mobility around deadline (voted after UoS, moved to Jimmmm after chicken). Thus, our groups are:

• Robz wagon: Didds, UoS, Uncleeurope, Space, chicken, Swan
• LL/Space wagons: MiX, shraeye, Glooble, Robz, raerae, faust, Uncleeurope
• None of the above: 2.71, ashersky, raerae, mcmc, LL, Awaclus, Jimmmmm

So, now that this is done, how can we use this? I believe there's (at least) one scum in the first group. Why? Because I feel like SOME scum would want to enter the Robz wagon. At least one, to help it grow, it was a fairly easy wagon to enter (just look at UoS' post when voting and you'll realize why) and you would be between townies doing the same, perfect cover. Besides, it grew like a wildfire (all of those votes were from #791 to #836). Wow, it actually grew incredibly fast.

Let's look at the votes in order, Didds first:

vote: Robz

I am committeed to a lynch.  I am willing to vote for LL, Robz, or Asher.  I won't vote for Jimmmm today.

At this point LL had 6 votes and Robz had 1. So moving because "I am comitted to a lynch" is...weird at best, scummy at worst. However, she does explain it in the only way possible:

I left LL when enough folks said it wasn’t fair to lynch him with no internet access, etc, so while I’m on Robz early it’s because he seemed viable based on the talk even if it wants yet about votes. And I wasn’t moving to Jimmm.

Which looks reasonable enough. It's also a very good excuse to get off the LL wagon but that only makes sense if LL's scum...go back here if EFHW flips scum.

Next is UoS with the best explanation:

Vote: Robz

Baaaaaaaaa

Wow. Just wow. Is sheeping scummy? It's a very "meh" reason and one that is stupidly easy to explain: all UoS has to say is that 2.71 was towny...oh hey, that's what they did! I don't like this vote, seems to be what scum would do. @UoS, do you like sheeping? If so, do you prefer to do it early or later in the game?

Then comes Mr. volatile vote, Uncle:

Vote: Robz

I dunno, people. My vote is still fluid, just trying some stuff out.

His other votes has much more substance than this, feels off. But he jumped off the wagon, which makes this reasoning make sense. Since he was moving everywhere and the wagon grew REALLY fast I think this vote's null, Uncle just wanted to hop around and got caught up with the barrage of Robz votes, he even left after 2 votes. @Uncle, why, exactly, did you vote for Robz?

Now, space:

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

Vote: Robz

Here I feel that the weird thing was throwing away so many people off their lynch pool then not getting better scumreads than Robz. The whole post's also a lot of words to essencially sheep 2.71 since that's, ultimately, what drove them to vote...yet they don't say it here. Yes, I've said this before, but it keeps being true. Also, if you read it all, it has exactly 1 scumread (Robz) and then whatever it is that Space thinks of me, I still don't know what "case" they were talking about, but I'm assuming it's a scumread too?

Chicken's next:

Vote Robbz

I guess it makes sense to throw my vote into the ring at this juncture. Robbz was my strongest scumread, and now that it is looking like we are converging for an actual lynch seems to have the most traction. If there is a big shift to Lalight I guess I could be persuaded, but I would much rather stick on this line.

"strong" scumread with some of the flimsiest reasons to vote I've ever seen. I would be on this wagon instantly if I didn't think this is part of his meta. @chicken, you said "It wasn't scummy in and of itself - but the first was a rather a poor choice of words to throw out when the populace at large already had moderate suspicion on him": how is this scummy? How is a poor choice of words scummy? This explanation is essencial for us to understand you.

Lastly comes Swan:

I was wrong. I will not be here. I do not think Robz is particularly skummy but I do not want my vote to go to waste and I do not want to vote for Space.


Vote: Robz

So...he votes for Robz because he doesn't "want to vote for Space"? Yet LL's a much bigger wagon...he then explains this with the laziest (lazy seems to be a theme of this game) answer I've seen:

LL's wagon was at 4 votes, Robz' was at 5, he could easily vote LL...actually, @Swan, why didn't you vote LL?

I posted this in my VCA - but because I had to choose between the two and I liked Robz more than LL.

Now that I had time to reread...WHAT VCA? I didn't see you talk about LL at all. @Swan, what, how do you explain this? Swan has the worst explanation, he just saw a wagon, voted and went on his merry way...he didn't have a lot of time but he could clearly see that there were 3 wagons, he only commented 2, I don't get it.


From all this I get: Swan is scum, UoS and chicken are scummy, Didds, Space and Uncle are null/towny, doesn't matter now.

Now, you might say, but there's almost always scum in a 6 player group! To wish I reply, if we're in multiball, there would be at least 2 scum here. Because each scum team wants the cover, they would both put someone in there, not realizing that the other scum team's already there, since they don't even know if it's multiball. This would easily explain how the wagon exploded so fast. But, what if it's not multiball? Well, I'm positive there's still at least 1 scum here, which is more than you can say in a random group of 6. You can also note (and I will) that Uncle's vote had little to do with it and reduce it to a group of 5 with guaranteed 1 scum: those are pretty good odds. Couple that with bad reasons to vote from pretty much everyone and you have a solid lynch list. I'll essencially want to lynch from this list today, but not the null/towny reads, so just Swan, UoS and chicken.

Unfortunatly I'm pretty sure I made a lot of stretches, overexaggerations, oversimplifications or just outright mistakes somewhere, as I am prone to, so I'll also accept a faust or Awaclus lynch. Awaclus for their position in the wagon, unquestionable, which means he would (theoretically) be safe from VCAs today and faust for...hey, I actually like the manipulation case! But really just because the only way faust flips scum is if every single town joins on him. I'll have to reread him later...

I had some things to say about the other 2 groups, for example, I'm also positive there's at least one scum in the LL/Space bunch, but here I don't have a lot to say about each because they haven't said important things about those votes...also I'm not as confident about that.

TL;DR: Swan is scum, UoS and chicken are scummy, will vote for faust and Awaclus, must reread faust.

I'll single out some questions next post. If anyone wants me to go in-depth in the LL/Space group say so, I already spent a lot of brainpower just doing this analysis...

[MiX]

Questions from previous post:

@UoS, do you like sheeping? If so, do you prefer to do it early or later in the game?

@Uncle, why, exactly, did you vote for Robz?

@chicken, you said "It wasn't scummy in and of itself - but the first was a rather a poor choice of words to throw out when the populace at large already had moderate suspicion on him": how is this scummy? How is a poor choice of words scummy? This explanation is essencial for us to understand you.

@Swan, what, how do you explain never mentioning LL D1? This question makes more sense in the context of the previous post.

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t remember exactly why, I think it was a mix of e’s posts getting to me and Robz poss feeling slightly apathetic. As well as, and this is the big one, wanting to see more clearly who was okay with Robz dying more clearly.

That being said, I caved once so many people jumped, and became much more interested in not pushing the narrative that this was inevitable just to see how many people would agree or disagree.

Why no mention of Awaclus in your list there, I must have missed the bit where you discounted him.

Vote: Faust

Errr...

Vote: Chicken

[MiX]

I don’t remember exactly why, I think it was a mix of e’s posts getting to me and Robz poss feeling slightly apathetic. As well as, and this is the big one, wanting to see more clearly who was okay with Robz dying more clearly.

That being said, I caved once so many people jumped, and became much more interested in not pushing the narrative that this was inevitable just to see how many people would agree or disagree.

Why no mention of Awaclus in your list there, I must have missed the bit where you discounted him.

Vote: Faust

Errr...

Vote: Chicken

Awaclus voted after Swan. Did you actually read that wall? Wow.

What makes you think chicken's scum (or scummier than Swan)?

[faust]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

I think he is scum.

[Awaclus]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

I think he is scum.

You're mistaken.

[MiX]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

I think he is scum.

You're mistaken.

What did this post accomplish? All it does is say "My name is Awaclus and here is my meta" which is useless.

[Awaclus]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

I think he is scum.

You're mistaken.

What did this post accomplish? All it does is say "My name is Awaclus and here is my meta" which is useless.

What did this post accomplish? All it does is say "My name is MiX and here is my meta" which is useless.

[MiX]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

I think he is scum.

You're mistaken.

What did this post accomplish? All it does is say "My name is Awaclus and here is my meta" which is useless.

What did this post accomplish? All it does is say "My name is MiX and here is my meta" which is useless.

I wanted to know what you thought was good content or not, clearly you like to reduce scum's information, how do you feel about saying nothing in a post?

[Awaclus]

Okay Faust, thoughts on Awaclus now?

I think he is scum.

You're mistaken.

What did this post accomplish? All it does is say "My name is Awaclus and here is my meta" which is useless.

What did this post accomplish? All it does is say "My name is MiX and here is my meta" which is useless.

I wanted to know what you thought was good content or not, clearly you like to reduce scum's information, how do you feel about saying nothing in a post?

I'm generally fine with saying nothing in a post. It makes rereads and finding specific posts to quote take slightly more effort, which probably hurts all alignments equally but it's an extremely minor effect either way so I don't know if it's good or not and I don't really care too much either.

[ashersky]

vote: mix

That wagon analysis was...something. But to me the biggest thing that stands out is the use of the thought and phrasing that the Robz lynch “was secured” at some point earlier in the day.

 And the. Removing players from that wagon to do wagon analysis as if they were on other wagons even when they were not is just...wow?

I still have no town reads. MiX is scummier than Awaclus and deadline and all that.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.6




MiX (4): raerae, Awaclus, chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, shraeye, Glooble
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
chickenwarlord (1): Uncleeurope

Not voting (5): 2.71828....., SpaceAnemone, EFHW, DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

I wasn’t able to find a backup mod so you are somewhat on your own for vote counts between now and Sunday night. I will try to pop in here and there though.

[Swowl]

Questions from previous post:

@UoS, do you like sheeping? If so, do you prefer to do it early or later in the game?

@Uncle, why, exactly, did you vote for Robz?

@chicken, you said "It wasn't scummy in and of itself - but the first was a rather a poor choice of words to throw out when the populace at large already had moderate suspicion on him": how is this scummy? How is a poor choice of words scummy? This explanation is essencial for us to understand you.

@Swan, what, how do you explain never mentioning LL D1? This question makes more sense in the context of the previous post.

Response to MiX - I thought the context was clear, but I could see how it is not. I said on day 1 "I don't want to vote for space, so I will vote for Robz"... knowing that LL was the second wagon. I assumed it would be gathered that that meant I did not want to lynch LL. I tried to elaborate on that when you asked me earlier in Day 2.

As for reasons:

1) Didn't want to vote LL because they were way out of any element I have ever seen them play. Specifically, it is my observation that as skum they do not lurk at all. Zero content creates a rough read, but I did not want to vote there when I combine those points.

2) With LL removed my choices were Robz or Space. I knew I would not be around to help with vote switching at DL (5am my time). I really had no good reason. While I enjoy Robz in games once he starts talking very much... I find Space's content mid-late game far more useful. I also am horrible at reading Robz. Not to say I am good at reading Space, but she and I normally but heads so she naturally stays on my radar.... which is comforting in a weird way.

Combine all that with a dash of "Robz was the larger wagon and I wasn't gonna be around"... and you get my vote for Robz.

I feel like I mentioned all this before, but there is the summary.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yeah, I'm with Ash, let's make this inevitable now that faust clearly isn't happening.

Vote: MiX

The one that really gets me is somehow winding up null/town on Space after all that.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@UoS, do you like sheeping? If so, do you prefer to do it early or later in the game?

I don't really like sheeping, but sometimes it makes sense. It's not an early or late game thing really, but I guess I'd say I'm much more likely to do it early game, but I think that is true of literally everyone.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Didds count from right after she voted

More right than it was before...
Vote count 1.2 Didds

LaLight (5): MiX, UmbrageofSnow, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Jimmmmm (3): faust, Uncleeurope, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, , Awaclus
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds,

shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan


No Lynch (1): chickenwarlord

[Swowl]

We can further seperate this if we look at the vote count when Robz was the only one getting lynched, that is, after Swan's vote:
LaLight (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Robz888 (6): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
2.71828..... (2): LaLight, Awaclus
shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
SpaceAnemone (2): faust, Uncleeurope

Since the lynch was guaranteed here, we can ignore votes after this. The 2.71 vote's also irrelevent for the Robz wagon: it's better if we remove him from that group to make conclusions. We can also add Uncle to the Robz list because of his vote mobility around deadline (voted after UoS, moved to Jimmmm after chicken). Thus, our groups are:

- The bold points above really have me suspicious. Why would you think the Robz lynch was GTD at the point of my vote. It took 10 to lynch, the wagons were at 6-4, and the potential people to vote "not robz" before deadline were: Rae, Ashes, MCMC, LL, Awaclus, Jimmm, Faust, Eddie and any active players on the Robz Wagon.

Thats 8 players on top of any active players on the Robz wagon that would choose to switch. I guess also minus LL as they would not vote themselves. So, 7 players, plus potential Robz Wagon players.

At this point, if literally one person were to switch from Robz to LL it would negate every single thing you analyzed. Not to say it wasn't good work, it is just the assumption that the Robz wagon was inevitable at this point is odd.

MIX - Could you elaborate on where you are drawing these conclusions from?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Not to say it wasn't good work, it is just the assumption that the Robz wagon was inevitable at this point is odd.

MIX - Could you elaborate on where you are drawing these conclusions from?

I'm willing to say it wasn't good work.

MiX's post seems less like it's trying to sort people and more like it's trying to be a big wall of effort before throwing out the conclusions he wanted to reach.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Like I've been arguing with some of the premises, but even if we accept them, how does he get from this

Robz888 -- Actually, his inactivity here doesn't feel totally like it did in RMM51. Here he seems to be reading and sheeping, rather than too busy to be present. I certainly have sympathy for people who find interacting with a big group on D1 tough, but that's not really the vibe I get from him either. Of the major wagons that I haven't ruled out, he's looking the most votable.

Vote: Robz

Here I feel that the weird thing was throwing away so many people off their lynch pool then not getting better scumreads than Robz. The whole post's also a lot of words to essencially sheep 2.71 since that's, ultimately, what drove them to vote...yet they don't say it here. Yes, I've said this before, but it keeps being true. Also, if you read it all, it has exactly 1 scumread (Robz) and then whatever it is that Space thinks of me, I still don't know what "case" they were talking about, but I'm assuming it's a scumread too?

To this

Space null/towny

[EFHW]

Not to say it wasn't good work, it is just the assumption that the Robz wagon was inevitable at this point is odd.

MIX - Could you elaborate on where you are drawing these conclusions from?

I'm willing to say it wasn't good work.

MiX's post seems less like it's trying to sort people and more like it's trying to be a big wall of effort before throwing out the conclusions he wanted to reach.

I did like the attention to how each person justified their vote. We don't usually do that.

[EFHW]

I don't buy the case on Datswan, but chicken's strongest scumread being Robz does seem strange. The main problem with all this VCA is that the Robz lynch wasn't scummy. Really, I'd say he provoked it. The last time he did that, his getting lynched was actually helpful for town.

[2.71828.....]

So, haven't really read D2 much....at all...

But I am going to go back and look at a couple things that are interesting.  Such as, why on earth did scum NK Jimmmmm?

Jimmmmm was very much absent on D1, and there was like no reason to NK him.  These are my thoughts:
1) They thought that all the active people were playing scummy enough that they would get themselves lynched
2) They were just shooting in the dark at someone knowing this is RMM they are likely to hit a PR of some sort
  2a) Then why shoot at Jimmmmm?  Because they are afraid of Jimmmmm later on in the game?  Because....?  Speculation can run wild
  2b) Speaking of speculation running wild, I think that the team that had Jimmmmm shot was a team that has at least one player who has been around for a while, let me just throw out a pool of {ashersky, Awaclus, faust, LaLightEFHW, Space}.  Maybe throw Shraeye/raerae in that pool?  Maybe?

Then also, why did the other team kill mcmcsalot?
mcmcsalot had a more active D1 with some very good contributing posts, but I the kill again feels weird.
1) They were off-wagon, so that is cool.  Maybe the scum team assumed that we would be trying to lynch on-wagon (suggesting an off-wagon scum?  But at this point I am fairly certain there is scum anywhere, on/off/sideways of the wagon)
2) They were just shooting in the dark at someone knowing this is RMM they are likely to hit a PR of some sort.
  2a) Rereading mcmcsalot I didn't see anything that felt like it revealed "big awesome PR" so just a shot
  2b) back to my speculation running wild, I think we can throw out a pool of experience players again who are more careful around a long time player like mcmc than more of an unknown (looking at you, MiX.  or Eddie.)

Basically, in multi-ball a lynch is hard to pick a scum read off because it could very well be scum lynching the other team, and poof!  they are townie now.  NKs are another matter.  I think the two NKs show an intersectionality of veteran players that make me think they are scum (on one side or the other, just not town.)

Rising to the top of the list for me is ashersky or faust, but now I need to read D2

[faust]

Basically, in multi-ball a lynch is hard to pick a scum read off because it could very well be scum lynching the other team, and poof!  they are townie now.  NKs are another matter.  I think the two NKs show an intersectionality of veteran players that make me think they are scum (on one side or the other, just not town.)

Rising to the top of the list for me is ashersky or faust, but now I need to read D2

Which kills would have made you think that scum contains inexperienced players?

[2.71828.....]

I feel like NK analysis is more useful here than normally.

You want to actually do this instead of just dropping a post saying it's a good idea?

I did do this. I just don't want to share.

boooo.

As an aside, MiX is almost definitely town in my opinion

[2.71828.....]

Basically, in multi-ball a lynch is hard to pick a scum read off because it could very well be scum lynching the other team, and poof!  they are townie now.  NKs are another matter.  I think the two NKs show an intersectionality of veteran players that make me think they are scum (on one side or the other, just not town.)

Rising to the top of the list for me is ashersky or faust, but now I need to read D2

Which kills would have made you think that scum contains inexperienced players?

I think an inexperienced player would have killed someone more active than Jimmmm.  mcmcsalot anyone would have killed.  I think the combination of the two kills points more toward a veteran of the forum than a newer member of the forum. Again, not one kill or the other, but both kills together make me think that odds are there exists scum among veteran players.

And this could also just be one player teamed with a newer player.

[Swowl]

Not to say it wasn't good work, it is just the assumption that the Robz wagon was inevitable at this point is odd.

MIX - Could you elaborate on where you are drawing these conclusions from?

I'm willing to say it wasn't good work.

MiX's post seems less like it's trying to sort people and more like it's trying to be a big wall of effort before throwing out the conclusions he wanted to reach.

So obviously it will mean less coming from me.... but if they were skum adopting that tactic, I assume they would pick an easier target with a better case. For an example, they could of put in half the effort and targeted Awaclus and in the future just said, "it was defense" or something.

[2.71828.....]

I've done a first round of wagon-gazing. There aren't many occasions on D1 where more than two of the green names (including my own, from my PoV) are interacting with the same wagon, with the exception of a five-person wagon on e.

At its peak, the wagon is:
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds

So given that it's stable for almost 80 posts, it seems pretty likely that at least one of e, LL, Awaclus or Didds is scum. In a "normal-sized" game, a fiver-person town-on-town wagon is significantly rare, but with so many players in here for D1, I would expect at least a slightly higher chance. There'd even be a case for there being one of each scumteam, if we have two multi-person teams. That seems kind of a stretch when we're only talking about six players in total, though, which probably means it would be smart to check the baseline assumptions about how likely it is for there to be a scum (or one of each scum) in a group of n players. I'll tabulate some numbers when I'm not so sleepy, but right now it's after midnight and I desperately need an early night.

Here's a description of how the e wagon came about, in case a summary is useful for anyone (and since I'd typed it all before realising that it might be more interesting for most people if I just to jump straight to the interesting part):
By around #200, e has had votes from faust and mcmc for a while.
Faust moves to Robz at #265.
Robz joins mcmc on e at #268.
Robz moves to Chicken at #361.
LL joins mcmc on e at #391.
Robz joins them at #402.
Awaclus joins at #473.
Didds joins at #482.
This wagon, the largest so far in the game at that point, stays stable till #561, when Didds moves off onto MiX.
mcm moves to raerae at #643, the the rest stay till Robz moves over to the growing LL wagon at #781.

Really like this wagon grab by Space, and especially since I know I am town it does add extra suspicion to WCD, Awaclus, and LaLightEFHW

[2.71828.....]

Reread everything, caught up.  I feel like MiX is 1) not afraid to voice opinions 2) likely to be caught up looking scummy in those opinions and large amounts of posts and 3) is townie for that.  What can I say, I am a sucker for activity, and if you are active and responding to posts I am more likely to read you as town.  Just my own bias, I acknowledge it, and I try to overcome it when necessary.

I feel like Awaclus is playing very similarly to RMM51 where he was scum, but it just feels so townie that I feel like I can't vote for him. 

I feel suspicious of WCD more especially after Space's wagon pull thing.  I think that pull is especially useful since we have 2 confirmed town on that wagon with Robz/mcmc.  Going to do a targeted reread of WCD now

[Swowl]

Basically, in multi-ball a lynch is hard to pick a scum read off because it could very well be scum lynching the other team, and poof!  they are townie now.  NKs are another matter.  I think the two NKs show an intersectionality of veteran players that make me think they are scum (on one side or the other, just not town.)

Rising to the top of the list for me is ashersky or faust, but now I need to read D2

Which kills would have made you think that scum contains inexperienced players?

I think an inexperienced player would have killed someone more active than Jimmmm.  mcmcsalot anyone would have killed.  I think the combination of the two kills points more toward a veteran of the forum than a newer member of the forum. Again, not one kill or the other, but both kills together make me think that odds are there exists scum among veteran players.

And this could also just be one player teamed with a newer player.

right. so it is multiball and anyone could of killed anyone for any reason pretty much?
Sorry that is sarcastic, but not to be rude, just to make a point... which is like... what is your point?

[2.71828.....]

By way of introduction. This is my 6th game...2 newbie games, two RMM, and one guillotine game, but before that I’d never even heard of mafia.. I’m a she or they, I’m an hour behind forum time, I get up early and go to bed early, I’m generally WCD or Didds, and I’m prone to fluffy chatting and newb mistakes...I’m working on correcting one of those.

I’ve never played with MiX, Raerae, shraeye, chicken, or Jimmm. Eddie’s first game was my first game so I was there with faust, UoS, and LL when he went from Uncle to Eddie.

(bold is mine)

See, this is what I am talking about when it comes to the NK.   I just don't feel like someone who has never played with another player just kills Jimmmmm N1 after the lackluster D1 play from Jimmmmm.   I just don't see WCD being on the team that killed Jimmmmm.  (doesn't mean they weren't on the team that killed mcmc)

[faust]

By way of introduction. This is my 6th game...2 newbie games, two RMM, and one guillotine game, but before that I’d never even heard of mafia.. I’m a she or they, I’m an hour behind forum time, I get up early and go to bed early, I’m generally WCD or Didds, and I’m prone to fluffy chatting and newb mistakes...I’m working on correcting one of those.

I’ve never played with MiX, Raerae, shraeye, chicken, or Jimmm. Eddie’s first game was my first game so I was there with faust, UoS, and LL when he went from Uncle to Eddie.

(bold is mine)

See, this is what I am talking about when it comes to the NK.   I just don't feel like someone who has never played with another player just kills Jimmmmm N1 after the lackluster D1 play from Jimmmmm.   I just don't see WCD being on the team that killed Jimmmmm.  (doesn't mean they weren't on the team that killed mcmc)

This reasoning is at odds with this:

And this could also just be one player teamed with a newer player.

Why couldn't WCD just be on the team that killed Jimmmmm where a vet suggested the Jimmmmm kill?

[2.71828.....]

After reading WCD I could totally vote there, don't have anything specific to pull out of the reread, just nothing extremely townie that I noticed.

[2.71828.....]

By way of introduction. This is my 6th game...2 newbie games, two RMM, and one guillotine game, but before that I’d never even heard of mafia.. I’m a she or they, I’m an hour behind forum time, I get up early and go to bed early, I’m generally WCD or Didds, and I’m prone to fluffy chatting and newb mistakes...I’m working on correcting one of those.

I’ve never played with MiX, Raerae, shraeye, chicken, or Jimmm. Eddie’s first game was my first game so I was there with faust, UoS, and LL when he went from Uncle to Eddie.

(bold is mine)

See, this is what I am talking about when it comes to the NK.   I just don't feel like someone who has never played with another player just kills Jimmmmm N1 after the lackluster D1 play from Jimmmmm.   I just don't see WCD being on the team that killed Jimmmmm.  (doesn't mean they weren't on the team that killed mcmc)

This reasoning is at odds with this:

And this could also just be one player teamed with a newer player.

Why couldn't WCD just be on the team that killed Jimmmmm where a vet suggested the Jimmmmm kill?

They could be, but I think it makes it less likely of a situation.

[Uncleeurope]

You are saying that out of Awaclus, WCD, and ESFW you would lynch WCD?

[MiX]

Yeah, I'm with Ash, let's make this inevitable now that faust clearly isn't happening.

Vote: MiX

The one that really gets me is somehow winding up null/town on Space after all that.

As much as Space's conditioned to scumread me based on our playstyles and personality, I'm also conditioned to scumread them. I wanted to throw away this bias. Besides, Space seems like someone that would be better later in the game so it makes more sense for them to sheep e than, say, you (I think). You're right that I could add them to the scummy list but I already had 3 there and I prefer to lynch those.

Why would you think the Robz lynch was GTD at the point of my vote. It took 10 to lynch, the wagons were at 6-4, and the potential people to vote "not robz" before deadline were: Rae, Ashes, MCMC, LL, Awaclus, Jimmm, Faust, Eddie and any active players on the Robz Wagon.

Just look at this post:

Datswan votes for Robz because he doesn't want his vote to go to waste and he doesn't want to lynch Space.

Awaclus jumps on.

I don't want to lynch Space either and it's looking unlikely anything else is going to pick up steam so I jump on too.

Yes, it's the same one faust quoted to justify his vote on Awaclus, but it's very simple to realize that your vote sealed the deal: you weren't moving after that. No matter what happened with everything else, that vote was stuck. It's easy to see why Awaclus and Glooble thought Robz was the only person getting lynched: pretty much everyone on that wagon was there because it was their best option (all sheeping e's case, including e himself) and it really didn't look like it was going to budge.

I don't buy the case on Datswan, but chicken's strongest scumread being Robz does seem strange. The main problem with all this VCA is that the Robz lynch wasn't scummy. Really, I'd say he provoked it. The last time he did that, his getting lynched was actually helpful for town.

The lynch wasn't scummy, everyone getting on board was. It was a lynch on null points and sheeping a bad case a towny person made. That's the easiest wagon for scum to jump, ever.


So...Swan's reason to not vote LL is...because scum!LL wouldn't lurk? That's just crazy, LL didn't WANT to lurk, he had to! The case on them was not because they were lurking, it was because they made a readlist with barely any concrete reads which is a really easy way to not say much and not get called out on lurking. Of course now we know that LL didn't have time for the game, which explains why the readlist was so weak (he didn't have time to reread and form reads) but that was unknown at the time. This coupled with not actually mentioning LL until I ask this seems scummy.

[2.71828.....]

You are saying that out of Awaclus, WCD, and ESFW you would lynch WCD?

I think EFHW is also a good target, need to look back at LaLight/EFHW

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Awaclus

[WestCoastDidds]

After reading WCD I could totally vote there, don't have anything specific to pull out of the reread, just nothing extremely townie that I noticed.

I think this is a fair assessment. I am not being extremely townie, partly because I am having a really hard time processing this many players and the concept of two scum factions. I feel quite in over my head, and the game keeps stalling out and then becoming a conversation between MiX, Eddie, and Umbrage which does NOTHING to help clear anything up for me.  That is a super confusing trio, to me.  (MiX, I did think your big post was good work, and it was the most clear post you have written yet.)

I feel like I can make the most sense of things when Swowl, Space, faust, EFHW, and you are talking to each other, but that hasn't been happening a lot lately so I've just been keeping up, but no better. I like to be more active and more engaged, but I can't seem to come up with any ideas with any real traction.

(The fact that there are FIVE freaking players that didn't even make my lists speaks to how big, big, big this game is.)

[WestCoastDidds]

You are saying that out of Awaclus, WCD, and ESFW you would lynch WCD?

I think EFHW is also a good target, need to look back at LaLight/EFHW

I agree with this

[EFHW]

I reread e. Totally seems like e!e.  One clashy note was in 1207 he says "the other team," but we don't know there are two teams. So this puts him maybe on an SK suspect list. His analyzing the nk's assuming teams distracts town from considering there being an SK. His scumhunting seems legit. He's being pretty towny, which isn't the best strategy for SK, so meh.

[EFHW]

In looking for an explanation of Jimmmmm's nk, we should consider anyone following the Czech mafia game, since he was a key factor in the 3 person lylo at the end. I was going to consider the scumteam, but it turns out it was me/LL, joth and Dylan.

[shraeye]

Here's my main problem with Awaclus's reasoning right now.

More discussion means scum is forced to lie more. They have to think about the information they have versus the information they're supposed to have, and sometimes they mess up. They have to justify their votes, and if their real reason for voting is help their own wincon, they have to come up with a lie. The more we force scum to lie, the more likely we are to catch them in a lie.

So letting each town player draw they're own conclusions and encouraging votes with no explanation attached just lets scum hide. I know Awaclus knows this, so it feels to me like Awaclus is just trying to justify his own scummy behavior and enable scummy behavior from others.

Yes.  Yeah. Yup.

[shraeye]

I am contributing, where I have things to say. I am just very succinct! I gave up on rereading the thread, though. It was too much of a slog. So I don't have many things to say about the past. I am planning to do targeted rereads of you and e.

You should absolutely reread me faust and Awaclus too, otherwise you'll be useless today.

Ok, why did you just narrow down the list to 3 people while you are still voting for somebody else??

[MiX]

I am contributing, where I have things to say. I am just very succinct! I gave up on rereading the thread, though. It was too much of a slog. So I don't have many things to say about the past. I am planning to do targeted rereads of you and e.

You should absolutely reread me faust and Awaclus too, otherwise you'll be useless today.

Ok, why did you just narrow down the list to 3 people while you are still voting for somebody else??

Because...good point! Hmm. I wasn't that confident about Swan yet...I guess? Can't really answer that...I really didn't think about people sheeping my case, especially with all the heat I had...but that's stupid, I should think higher of myself. I do know that I mentioned those 3 because they were the people I wanted to hear EFHW talk about...but Swan should've also been included there.

[shraeye]

I reread e. Totally seems like e!e.  One clashy note was in 1207 he says "the other team," but we don't know there are two teams. So this puts him maybe on an SK suspect list. His analyzing the nk's assuming teams distracts town from considering there being an SK. His scumhunting seems legit. He's being pretty towny, which isn't the best strategy for SK, so meh.

Yeah, baked into his analysis was a definite " TEAMS are making these kills" bias.  My first reaction was to think he was on a team, but I guess it does make the most sense from SK, as they are the only ones not paranoid about what invisible evil lurks in their dreams.

[MiX]

I've done a first round of wagon-gazing. There aren't many occasions on D1 where more than two of the green names (including my own, from my PoV) are interacting with the same wagon, with the exception of a five-person wagon on e.

At its peak, the wagon is:
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds

So given that it's stable for almost 80 posts, it seems pretty likely that at least one of e, LL, Awaclus or Didds is scum.

Really like this wagon grab by Space, and especially since I know I am town it does add extra suspicion to WCD, Awaclus, and LaLightEFHW

This was the third part of the VCA (second was LL/Space wagon) but Space had already done this (and I had nothing to add), I agree with it but I wouldn't want to lynch e today. EFHW is a great information lynch, Didds is on the Robz wagon part and Awaclus is Awaclus, I already talked about them.


Everyone scumreading me: what, exactly, do you think town!me would do instead? I really don't like how we're all converging to 2 wagons, seems like a very easy way to remove pressure off Swan and faust, which are now my top scumreads because of this. I guess I'll have to go for Awaclus, but I still prefer lynching scumreads more than someone everyone loooooves to lynch.

Swan's D1's pretty weird, he starts by saying setup talk is scum's prefered topic, then proceed to talk about setup for a while, then goes to a NAI topic...and then does 3 things: says Glooble is town, asks chicken some stuff, and votes Robz. Not to say that he was lurking, just...he seems to be doing nothing. The vast majority of his posts are about the setup or the MiX!Didds thing and he barely interacts with anyone (essencially just chicken). His second vote is his last one where he doesn't even say what he thinks about LL or Space, he simply drops a vote and goes...I don't want to scumread him based on activity, but still...

Does the above describe town!Swan or scum!Swan? It's scummy but maybe it's coherent with what town!Swan usually does...although I doubt it. I can't promise anything, but I'll try to metaread Swan untill deadline, hopefully it's not to late to change my/town's mind (depending on what conclusion I get)...


We should start thinking about deadline: who'll be avaiable? I should be able to make some phone posts to move my vote around if necessary.

[EFHW]

What information would you gain from my lynch?

[MiX]

What information would you gain from my lynch?

LL was a very important wagon D1 and I would love to know if you're town or scum.

[EFHW]

What information would you gain from my lynch?

LL was a very important wagon D1 and I would love to know if you're town or scum.

All you had to do was ask! I'm town.

[EFHW]

Have now reread Glooble and I noticed some patterns. I haven't played with him before, though, so input from those who have would be welcome.

First, he does a lot of advice-giving to town. "Remember" and "keep in mind" come up several times. It seems like he is trying to seem pro-town. His extra attention to deadlines can be a scum trying to look town trait as well. He makes many statements about how to play, why information is important, etc and gets in a couple arguments about these. Trying to look super virtuous?

Second, He does take some stances on people, not just playing philosophies. He pushes Jimmmmm most of Day 1, for lurking and being low-effort and hedgy. Late in Day 1 he switches to Lalight, who he sees as playing very similarly to Jimmmmm. Reluctantly votes for Robz. Scum!Glooble could be responsible for the Jimmmmm nk, if scum are looking to kill other scum. I do think he is scum-hunting, but that's NAI for this game.

Third, lately he's upset with Awaclus. Something we all have to go through. He seems determined to change how Awaclus plays, which seems unlikely to work out.

Point 1 leads me to vote: Glooble.

[Glooble]

Have now reread Glooble and I noticed some patterns. I haven't played with him before, though, so input from those who have would be welcome.

First, he does a lot of advice-giving to town. "Remember" and "keep in mind" come up several times. It seems like he is trying to seem pro-town. His extra attention to deadlines can be a scum trying to look town trait as well. He makes many statements about how to play, why information is important, etc and gets in a couple arguments about these. Trying to look super virtuous?

Second, He does take some stances on people, not just playing philosophies. He pushes Jimmmmm most of Day 1, for lurking and being low-effort and hedgy. Late in Day 1 he switches to Lalight, who he sees as playing very similarly to Jimmmmm. Reluctantly votes for Robz. Scum!Glooble could be responsible for the Jimmmmm nk, if scum are looking to kill other scum. I do think he is scum-hunting, but that's NAI for this game.

Third, lately he's upset with Awaclus. Something we all have to go through. He seems determined to change how Awaclus plays, which seems unlikely to work out.

Point 1 leads me to vote: Glooble.

I don't really have much of a response to this because I don't think it really merits one. I will say my concern about the deadline today is motivated by the fact that not worrying about the deadline day one led us to a bad lynch.

[SpaceAnemone]

Question for you, faust: What did you think of my comment that it would be useful to have baseline numbers for the likelihood of at least one scum in a set of n players? Do you agree that it would be town-useful info to have? If so, have you not followed up on it because you too are sorely strapped for time? Or do you think it's more useful to scum than town, but for some reason have decided not to scumread me for suggesting that it would be useful?

I don't think it is particularly useful for anyone. It doesn't hurt, but man there are better things you could do with your time. Calculating the expected number of scum in the setup is already nontrivial because you have to factor in that we had 2 town kills, which makes SK more likely.

Meh, that seemed the most likely answer from you, because you need to justify your position somehow.

I disagree that it's not useful, because the chance of at least one scum in a group of four players seems unintuitively high to me, at about 79% if we're in a four-scum game, and 93% if it's a six-scum game.

It means even if I could put a claim on my wagon analysis (e.g. that I'm right about sets containing at least one scum maybe 80% of the time; which is not a claim I currently have evidence to support), it's not actually offering significantly much above the baseline.

[SpaceAnemone]

Really like this wagon grab by Space, and especially since I know I am town it does add extra suspicion to WCD, Awaclus, and LaLightEFHW

Thank you! Have you noticed that there appears to be a better-than-2/3 chance of finding at least one scum in any group of 3 players, though? I'm pretty sure you're also a mathsy person, right?

[Glooble]

Ok, faust reread incoming. I said I was gonna do this, so I'm going to, even though the faust lynch is kind off the table now Faust is the one pushing hard to lynch Awaclus, so it's helpful to me to check on how much I trust faust.

First big faust event is his asking Gul Dukat to claim. I agree with this. We saw in RMM51 how a hated townie can screw up the LYLO math, it's a good thing to be aware of upfront, especially combined with the godfather and not wanting to waste cop investigations. Town points.

Then when UE claims he wants to lynch him right away, until he is reminded that the UB will inherit the hated, when he backs off. Null points- its a complicated setup, I'll buy that he forgot about the UB.

Argues with UoS's advice about Garak. I agree with his logic here, so town points I guess?

Reminds people about the setup (the SK is bulletproof) and argues the scum would rather kill town than other scum. Slight scum points maybe- scum!faust is more likely to be thinking about this stuff- but idk, seems weak.

How can you assert towniness based on what was at that point two in-game posts? :-P

If it is possible that 200 000 posts give you an indication of a person's alignment, then it is equally possible that 2 do.

I just want to say I have no idea what this means.

Explains that he wanted to lynch Uncle essentially as a policy lynch. Townie to me, could easily see how others would perceive this move as scummy, it sort of depends on your day one philosophy. We'll call it null.

I don't get anything from the next few posts. Argues with Space about confusing post above. Wants to know if people really find chicken scummy or just lurky.

Then this Jimmm vote:

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Great, so everyone gets to do "let's claim what roles we do/do not have" game.

Vote: Jimmmmm because there is no reason town should make that post.

As far as I can tell, Jimmm was confused by some poorly-chosen wording that made it look a little like MiX had claimed Kai Winn. While I agree there's no reason for town!Jimmm to make that post (thereby confirming that he is not Kai Winn.) It doesn't make any more sense for scum!Jimmmm to do it. It's not really going to encourage other players to start claiming randomly as faust seems to imply. Jimmm's confirmation that he is not one role seems way more like carelessness than malice. So minor scum points to faust for this vote.

48 hours to deadline, he tries to get people to consolidate their votes. Slightly townie? Null given that this is multiball? Idk.

Oh hey that Jimmmm vote looked scummy to me at the time I guess? I totally forgot. Faust's explanation makes sense, still don't agree with the particulars but I understand it.

Up for lynching LaLight or Jimmm. Can't disagree as I was in the same position at that point. Lurker lynches are easy cover for scum but they're also a sensible compromise lynch for town that's coming up against a deadline.

Tries to start a counterwagon on Space. I think this is townie given that Robz turned out to be town? Ok, so that's day one. So far I still think faust is most likely town.

TL;DR I think faust is probably town, so I'm happy to stay on the Awaclus wagon.

[SpaceAnemone]

I've just re-read WCD, since she was the person e was suggesting a re-read of based on my wagon-gazing. I can't say that anything about her sticks out as scummy to me. I had a pretty solid townread on her even in my paranoid not-completely-town state in RMM51 that lasted till I started getting paranoid about everything. I think trusting my gut with her for now makes sense, at least until she's shown that she can definitely pull off this level of townie-feeling-ness as scum.

I've yet to read Glooble's faust re-read, because faust is another player I want to read just now.

[WestCoastDidds]

I had a pretty solid  I think trusting my gut with her for now makes sense, at least until she's shown that she can definitely pull off this level of townie-feeling-ness as scum.

This made me laugh and laugh. I like that you allow the possibility for me to be masterful, while acknowledging that is very likely not the case. Ha!

[Glooble]

Unofficial vote count:

MiX (5): raerae, Awaclus, chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (5): faust, WestCoastDidds, shraeye, Glooble, UncleEurope
DatSwan (1): MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW

Not voting (3): 2.71828....., SpaceAnemone,DatSwan

BtW I will be available at deadline, or at least close to it, and able to move around. Although I won't put my vote on a player I think is town.

I'm uncertain if I would switch to MiX were he to become the leading wagon. He's so stream of consciousness, and I don't know if that's "look at me, I'm an open book explaining everything" towny or "I write so much that rereading me is incredibly intimidating and I can rationalize anything I want to do with lots and lots of words" scummy. Realizing I've kind of been a wall-of-text poster myself this game, but I limit myself to roughly one wall a day.

[Swowl]

I've done a first round of wagon-gazing. There aren't many occasions on D1 where more than two of the green names (including my own, from my PoV) are interacting with the same wagon, with the exception of a five-person wagon on e.

At its peak, the wagon is:
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, LaLight, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds

So given that it's stable for almost 80 posts, it seems pretty likely that at least one of e, LL, Awaclus or Didds is scum.

Really like this wagon grab by Space, and especially since I know I am town it does add extra suspicion to WCD, Awaclus, and LaLightEFHW

This was the third part of the VCA (second was LL/Space wagon) but Space had already done this (and I had nothing to add), I agree with it but I wouldn't want to lynch e today. EFHW is a great information lynch, Didds is on the Robz wagon part and Awaclus is Awaclus, I already talked about them.


Everyone scumreading me: what, exactly, do you think town!me would do instead? I really don't like how we're all converging to 2 wagons, seems like a very easy way to remove pressure off Swan and faust, which are now my top scumreads because of this. I guess I'll have to go for Awaclus, but I still prefer lynching scumreads more than someone everyone loooooves to lynch.

Swan's D1's pretty weird, he starts by saying setup talk is scum's prefered topic, then proceed to talk about setup for a while, then goes to a NAI topic...and then does 3 things: says Glooble is town, asks chicken some stuff, and votes Robz. Not to say that he was lurking, just...he seems to be doing nothing. The vast majority of his posts are about the setup or the MiX!Didds thing and he barely interacts with anyone (essencially just chicken). His second vote is his last one where he doesn't even say what he thinks about LL or Space, he simply drops a vote and goes...I don't want to scumread him based on activity, but still...

Does the above describe town!Swan or scum!Swan? It's scummy but maybe it's coherent with what town!Swan usually does...although I doubt it. I can't promise anything, but I'll try to metaread Swan untill deadline, hopefully it's not to late to change my/town's mind (depending on what conclusion I get)...


We should start thinking about deadline: who'll be avaiable? I should be able to make some phone posts to move my vote around if necessary.

I stand by my concept of "skum's favorite topic is set up", for the reasons I mentioned. That does not go to say that it is not merited at some points. I was late to the game, when I got in and read back almost all that had been discussed was set up based. This led me to believe there was most likely some skum motivation in the discussion.

I would really enjoy it if we could find a way to bury hatchet here so to speak. Tell me what you are looking for in meta diving and I will give you the games. This is my defn of lazy/busy town. Not proud of it, but it is.

[Swowl]

I am not a fan of any of the current options. I am iso-ing a few others now to try and find something better. If I have to, I go Awaclus over MiX.

I will be around up to like 3 hours before DL. Sorry - but DL is Monday at 5am my time.

[SpaceAnemone]

My own faust re-read:

Glooble and faust had some early interaction about whether the IC should claim, after faust had suggested that both Dukat and the IC might want to out themselves D1. Faust says a lot of things that make a lot of town sense, including that scum would want to kill other scummy-seeming scum during the day with the lynch, rather than necessarily at night. That shows a certain amount of having thought about this (or at least about multiball setups), but I don't think that's alignment-indicative for faust in the slightest.

Faust at #306: "Note also that the SK (which has a 2/3 chance of existing) is Bulletproof, so scum has further incentive not to shoot scummy people, and the SK has no incentive to shoot scum."

I didn't get a good townie vibe from the interaction I had with him where he made a remark about my surprise over someone having a two-post read, then later seemed to be expressing surprise about a two-post read himself. That ended with faust saying "but well it is D1", which is a bit of an empty explanation if there was a finer point to his argument that I just missed. On the plus side, I think scum people generally worry more about consistency than townies, so this isn't necessarily evidence for scum!faust.

I am reminded by faust's comments that there was a slight "e vs Jimmmmm" thing being talked about in D1. Could framing e be part of the motive behind a Jimmmmm NK, or was that too insignificant a thing in the end? (I can't remember, and don't currently want to deviate too much from my faust re-read).

I apparently missed the point that faust claimed my D1 MiX case was not relevant to MiX's alignment. Obviously, I think it was a fully valid case, because if a person is clearly acting, they are more likely to be hiding something (like a non-town alignment) than a person who reads as very natural. And a lot of stuff MiX has posted has been very much a performance.

The deal with raerae seemed quite playful and relaxed.. not too scummy, and in a game this big, making a deal not to vote one person for one day doesn't seem to have too big a downside.

Oh yeah.. he actually tried to get a wagon going on me at #832. I have to give him a little omgus for that at least. Grr. OTOH, he was objecting to the wording of something I wrote at 0230 in the morning. Why am I only able to find time to do re-reads at stupid-o'clock? (It's after 1am right now as I type this). That wagon only got up to three people (faust, Eddie and MiX), so nothing too scary or worthwhile analysing, except that I might want to look more at the people on it.

Makes the obligatory "still alive" post at the opening of D2. I think that's NAI. Hints at NK analysis being more useful than normal. I agree that the off-wagon kill is interesting, especially because it's on a single-vote person.

His comment about raerae and Shraeye's play seems to have been disproven a bit later on. It's weirdly unguarded, and he also admits to finding things tedious to read and to skimming... I'd find cherry-picking a bit suspicious, but I guess this seems more like careless town than manipulative scum.

Now comparing and contrasting with Glooble's post:

I don't get what was confusing about the "2 vs 200 000" exchange faust and I had. I'd expressed surprise that someone had a read on someone else (was it Ash?) who's only made two in-game posts, and faust said that if it's possible to get a read from 200 000 then it's possible to get a read from two. Then a little later on, he said something that was in effect complaining about a scumread over two posts, so I tried making his point back at him.. I meant it to be jokey but he didn't really seem to take it that way. BTW, he's right that since there's no predefined amount of information in a post, it's kind of deceptive to try to base anything on "number of posts" as a concept. I still think declaring any kind of read on a person based on two posts is not going to be reliable the vast majority of the time...

As for Glooble's reason for townreading Robz for trying to start a wagon on me, I guess it's viable as reasons go. This is a multi-ball setup, so faust couldn't actually have known that Robz was town for sure, nor that I'm town, so I guess scum!faust is more likely to be happy about getting Robz lynched over me, instead of deviating to try to save someone he was more sure was town.

[SpaceAnemone]

I think UncleEurope needs a re-read from me, since he was one of the people on my wagon D1. It's also interesting that the off-Robz-wagon kill wasn't even on my wagon, which was the next biggest thing.

Sleep now, though!

[ashersky]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

[EFHW]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

[faust]

Then this Jimmm vote:

When I saw the 2 votes thing I assumed there was a claim I hadn't seen.

Great, so everyone gets to do "let's claim what roles we do/do not have" game.

Vote: Jimmmmm because there is no reason town should make that post.

As far as I can tell, Jimmm was confused by some poorly-chosen wording that made it look a little like MiX had claimed Kai Winn. While I agree there's no reason for town!Jimmm to make that post (thereby confirming that he is not Kai Winn.) It doesn't make any more sense for scum!Jimmmm to do it. It's not really going to encourage other players to start claiming randomly as faust seems to imply. Jimmm's confirmation that he is not one role seems way more like carelessness than malice. So minor scum points to faust for this vote.

I just realiyed that the Jimmmmm post here means that scum knew he wasn|t Kai Winn and that might have been enough to push them towards killing him.

[faust]

Uh, sorry for the strange typos, I reconfigured my laptop and now it starts out with English keyboard and I am not quite yet used to it.

[faust]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

I still don't understand your reasons for suspecting me.

[ashersky]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

I still don't understand your reasons for suspecting me.

Basically for thinking like scum instead of like town. It’s a subjective read.

[ashersky]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

When one defaults to the use of team here, I think it is likely to be a scumslip if one is part of a team oneself (thereby self-projecting), or if one is the SK (thereby showing known info).

[2.71828.....]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

When one defaults to the use of team here, I think it is likely to be a scumslip if one is part of a team oneself (thereby self-projecting), or if one is the SK (thereby showing known info).

I thought "multi-ball" games imply that there are at least two other scum team factions rather than simply a SK+scum team. Basically all you are concluding is that I am not a SK (if a SK exists).

[2.71828.....]

And if you want to use that as a scum slip be my guest. I was probably more presumptive than I needed to be, but this is multi-ball, right?

[faust]

And if you want to use that as a scum slip be my guest. I was probably more presumptive than I needed to be, but this is multi-ball, right?

Now is probably a good time for you to read the setup.

[2.71828.....]

And if you want to use that as a scum slip be my guest. I was probably more presumptive than I needed to be, but this is multi-ball, right?

Now is probably a good time for you to read the setup.

But I have made it this far....

[shraeye]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

Isn't that literally the argument you made?

[shraeye]

And if you want to use that as a scum slip be my guest. I was probably more presumptive than I needed to be, but this is multi-ball, right?

Now is probably a good time for you to read the setup.

Serious question e, how much thought have you given to this setup?

[shraeye]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

Isn't that literally the argument you made?

I don't like that heptuple question marks ( the most important punctuation combo) gets formatted as emoji faces (which barely count as punctuation).

But also, what the heck is going through your mind EFHW?

[Awaclus]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

Isn't that literally the argument you made???????

I don't like that heptuple question marks ( the most important punctuation combo) gets formatted as emoji faces (which barely count as punctuation).

Do they really???????

[MiX]

So, we have under 24 hours untill deadline and everyone's in one of two wagons...I don't think I have a choice.

Vote: Awaclus, either me or you.

@DatSwan, if you believe you didn't lock in the Robz lynch, surely you must think Awaclus did, right? No one else could've done it. Do you think that's scummy?

Also, I've reread some town!Swan and it feels like this game's lacking his big rereads and VCAs that he seems to love to do but haven't read his scum games. I wish I had better scumreads...

[2.71828.....]

And if you want to use that as a scum slip be my guest. I was probably more presumptive than I needed to be, but this is multi-ball, right?

Now is probably a good time for you to read the setup.

Serious question e, how much thought have you given to this setup?

Not much. I read through the setup, and I know my role.

[2.71828.....]

I also prefer Awaclus over MiX

[2.71828.....]

The setup here is not as critical until after we start lynching scum and eventually claiming

Actually, that's true in basically all setups

[2.71828.....]

I mean, knowing and understanding your role is always important

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, I've reread some town!Swan and it feels like this game's lacking his big rereads and VCAs that he seems to love to do but haven't read his scum games. I wish I had better scumreads...

Don't you get the sense that is likely due to the size of the game? In many ways I feel like this is Day 1, part 2 because even after the lynch and the NKs, its still huge and hard to follow.  It doesn't seem like anyone has a really good case to follow/support. So big rereads are hard because of the sheer size, it seems.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I won't be around for deadline, but I should be able to come on and adjust my vote if needed until about midnight tonight, about 8 hours before deadline.

I obviously prefer MiX to Awaclus, I was just scum with Awaclus and this feel different to me, plus MiX is still pushing this thing about "locking in" the vote on Robz being inherently scummy, as if town knew Awaclus was town or that one of the possible counterwagons (which apparently included Space for some reason, that was never happening) must have been on scum. (Which only some of the scum would have know if that is true.) There's been a lot of argument about this but he's sticking to his guns on this, egged on by faust.

I'd still prefer a faust lynch, but that's not happening. There are probably a decent number of other wagons I'd prefer over Awaclus, if you build them, I may come.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

ChickenWarlord newb pass needs to end tomorrow.

[MiX]

plus MiX is still pushing this thing about "locking in" the vote on Robz being inherently scummy

I am not. And I believe this is a very easy point to make to secure my mislynch, which is why I asked Swan, wanted to see if someone tripped on that. Looks like you did!

Vote: UoS unless I did, in fact, say that locking in Robz' lynch is scummy, in which case I probably deserve to get lynched because I lied...but I'm preeeeetty sure I didn't! I hope I didn't since I don't believe it but I can't really say that I remember everything I was thinking this game, went back and forth a lot.

Space never happening is a good argument for scum!faust, but he was on another wagon that wasn't happening, the only problem with Space was...me moving from LL (a viable wagon) to Space. I was going to mention this but it really only incriminates me...but maybe faust knows better than to start a Space wagon that late? I don't actually know.

Vote: Awaclus because yeeeeah we're not starting another wagon, sadly. If you really want to start a wagon, chicken's something we can both agree on.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'll also accept a faust or Awaclus lynch. Awaclus for their position in the wagon, unquestionable, which means he would (theoretically) be safe from VCAs today and faust for...hey, I actually like the manipulation case! But really just because the only way faust flips scum is if every single town joins on him. I'll have to reread him later...

MiX: What did you mean by every single town having to join on faust? And how hesitant are you, really, about an Awaclus lynch?

[MiX]

I'll also accept a faust or Awaclus lynch. Awaclus for their position in the wagon, unquestionable, which means he would (theoretically) be safe from VCAs today and faust for...hey, I actually like the manipulation case! But really just because the only way faust flips scum is if every single town joins on him. I'll have to reread him later...

MiX: What did you mean by every single town having to join on faust? And how hesitant are you, really, about an Awaclus lynch?

I don't think scum wants to bus faust, coupled with the fact that he's supposed to be good as scum means that we need a lot of town convinced that he's scum to actually get a scum!faust flip. Which means I don't want to be that one guy that let scum!faust get away because he was being super towny as scum. Oh, and a faust flip should be pretty informative, a town flip would provide a lot of info given that town in general doesn't want to lynch faust which means whoever's early on it needs to provide very solid reasons to start the wagon.

The Awaclus wagon seems weak and uninformative if he's town, it's just a bunch of people sheeping faust and scumreading Awaclus based on his playstyle, which should be null at this point. I also stand by his vote being null, unlike what faust said, so it's another wagon being pushed by a null case, which is how Robz was lynched, don't want to see that happen again. But I'm not especially against it, also seems like it's what must happen if I should live, so between a mislynch and a nulllynch I prefer the latter.

Are you always this mysterious? I don't remember this from you, but last game you were scum so this could mean you're town? Can you point me to another game of you doing this as town so I can read it during the night?

[Glooble]

UoS why does Awaclus feel different to you than last game? Can you elaborate on that please? Because he feels pretty similar to me.

[Awaclus]

My wagon is not at all uninformative.

[faust]

My wagon is not at all uninformative.

That much is certainly true.

[Uncleeurope]

Awaclus, do you think Faust is scum?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

My meta is probably all over the place over the years, I play a couple games and then tend to go away for a while. I think I'm here for good at this point but I know I've changed over time, not sure what's a perfect meta example. Most recently I was town in Czech Mafia, but I suspect some of it is me playing off you, MiX. Honestly you remind me of myself in a way, and I'm totally doing a Socratic Method thing trying to both argue with you and see if I can see things from your POV. Not really having the best of luck with that at the moment honestly.

[2.71828.....]

My wagon is not at all uninformative.

If you are scum it might be

[2.71828.....]

I could do a last minute scramble onto Faust.

Since I am not voting, might as well vote: Faust

[Awaclus]

Vote: faust

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: faust

[MiX]

UoS why does Awaclus feel different to you than last game? Can you elaborate on that please? Because he feels pretty similar to me.

Have you played with town!Awaclus yet? Because I feel like this is just null!Awaclus...not that I have more experience with him.

My wagon is not at all uninformative.

Well, I did speak from my gut, let's see what information we get if you flip town (if you're scum we get a scumflip and that's already really good):

- faust is immediately scumread for pushing your lynch all day;
- something something my interaction with him is weird? Biased, I have no idea what people would think here.
- Uncle votes him a bunch, chicken expresses a scumread...

Okay I don't need to dig deeper to admit I was wrong. Awaclus' lynch is informative. Still think he's null, but it's actually a much better lynch than I thought, good job Awaclus. What that mini-reread of D2 made me realize is that faust actually thinks Awaclus' vote on Robz is scummy because it locked in the lynch...which is just weird.

@faust, do you think EFHW is scum?

PPE: Vote: faust while I reread the rest, also wow that's a lot of votes.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Faust

[UmbrageOfSnow]

UoS why does Awaclus feel different to you than last game? Can you elaborate on that please? Because he feels pretty similar to me.

It's kind of a gut thing, but it's based off this interaction really:

Awaclus, what's my read on e.

I think MiX just demonstrated he doesn't need it either so why are we doing this?

Partly we just finished a game as scum together and I kind of think if Awaclus was scum here he might play along or dismiss me differently to get me to townread him. There's also something in his tone. It's hard to explain, I'm not certain I'm the Awaclus-whisperer but I'm lean-town on him here.

As long as we're throwing out Awaclus reading thoughts, I think the best way to read him is probably to reread him in isolation later in the game and look at the progression of his thoughts, which you can sort of read between the lines on. This is only a slightly-tested method, but I think Awaclus is readable at better than random despite how people react to him.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Thinks that's 5 on faust out of 8.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Assuming Glooble's count is good:

UoS vote count:

faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, shraeye, Glooble
MiX (3): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW

Not voting (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.
[/quote]

[MiX]

Vote count 2.MiX:

MiX (3): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, shraeye, Glooble
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW

Not voting (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

PPE 1: mine's more correct! Noticed how I don't count myself twice

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Speed > Accuracy! who cares about correct vote counts?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also I sorted the top wagons to the top, unlike Joth, who just leaves wagon order random like a weirdo.

[shraeye]

Also I sorted the top wagons to the top, unlike Joth, who just leaves wagon order random like a weirdo.

That's my mod meta too, except I accept vobes (like any normal mod would)

[shraeye]

What that mini-reread of D2 made me realize is that faust actually thinks Awaclus' vote on Robz is scummy because it locked in the lynch...which is just weird.

That's literally exactly what you did (blame the person who locked in the Robz vote) except you think that belongs to a different person.  This is THE MOST opportunistic shift I could imagine.  Like, you just rewrote the book on scum-deflection/fake-reason-giving.

Vote: Mix

[SpaceAnemone]

Apologies for not having been on much earlier in the day today. I appear to be fighting off a weird mystery illness that leaves me bone tired even though I'm getting plenty of sleep.

I've got re-reading to do, but for the interim, I'm going to throw my vote down with a vote: Awaclus, simply because I'm not ready to see faust lynched and want to keep the main competing wagon alive. I don't have a particular scumread on Awaclus, or even remember if there's much of a case on him, but I do know how hard he is to read in general.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also I sorted the top wagons to the top, unlike Joth, who just leaves wagon order random like a weirdo.

That's my mod meta too, except I accept vobes (like any normal mod would)

I will also accept vobes.
Vobe: Joth

[shraeye]

Uuugggh phone. vote: mix

[SpaceAnemone]

People throwing around "vobes", has Joth expressed a definite ruling one way or the other on whether that kind of voting is allowed? If not, I think it's extremely unhelpful to obscure the vote count in the lead-up to a deadline by making not-necessarily-accepted votes.

[MiX]

What that mini-reread of D2 made me realize is that faust actually thinks Awaclus' vote on Robz is scummy because it locked in the lynch...which is just weird.

That's literally exactly what you did (blame the person who locked in the Robz vote) except you think that belongs to a different person.  This is THE MOST opportunistic shift I could imagine.  Like, you just rewrote the book on scum-deflection/fake-reason-giving.

Vote: Mix

Wrong, and I'm dissapointed that this is what people took from my VCA...the problem was not locking in the Robz wagon, it was piling on it with incredible speed. Yes, I believe that timing also mattered and that later votes were scummier, but my point was about all of the early votes. I guess I understand why people thought this was the reason, since it's part of it...but it's really not as cut-and-dry as faust wants it to be.

People throwing around "vobes", has Joth expressed a definite ruling one way or the other on whether that kind of voting is allowed? If not, I think it's extremely unhelpful to obscure the vote count in the lead-up to a deadline by making not-necessarily-accepted votes.

Joth has said he didn't accept them (I tried).

[SpaceAnemone]

Space count as of the vote at #1293, ignoring anything my counting script thinks isn't valid vote syntax:

MiX (3): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, SpaceAnemone
Uncleeurope (1): DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): Chickenwarlord

[ashersky]

I’ll be around before deadline.

[jotheonah]

Also I sorted the top wagons to the top, unlike Joth, who just leaves wagon order random like a weirdo.

It's not random, it's chronological! Also I am here now and catching up. Vote count soon.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.7


"Odo to Worf. I'm not sure exactly why but the crowd at the memorial service has turned into a mob. I need security backup on the double or we're going to have a lynch on our hands."


MiX (4): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, UncleEurope

Not voting (1):  DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th. That's in 12 hours and change.

[SpaceAnemone]

Argh.. new bugs to fix in my counter. Sorry about that.

It missed an all-caps vote with no space after the colon, and it counted "unvote: Eddie" as "vote: Eddie", which is not ideal!

[SpaceAnemone]

In other news, I've been re-reading Eddie. He really jumps around a lot, and makes a lot of votes without stating any sort of case. A few times I think I'm confused in my re-read because he also uses quotes very rarely so it's often necessary to dig back a bit with each post to see who he might be responding to. It seems to lead to a very un-auditable vote reasoning trail, which I think is something scum benefits from more than town.

These are the only people alive in the game who Eddie has notvoted for, though WCD, Ash, e and raerae are people he has professed to have a scumread or general suspicion on at least once in this game: DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, ashersky, 2.71828....., raerae

I'd have to re-do my re-read in order to check whether he's said a single thing about Shraeye. He did at least have a small tangle with Swan over the Gul Dukat claim and Swan's confusion over the godfather/miller distinction.

Anyway, I would not be averse to voting him, though can people who've played with him before please clarify whether he throws around quite so many scumreads and unaccounted votes in his usual town game, as he claims? One other thing I found mildly suspicious is that he asks WCD to give reasons why he's not on her radar at #1070, which seems a lot like fishing for a towncase to be made on him. He's done an awful lot of throwing suspicion all game, voting for one person while saying that things by two or three others are scummy, which seems to be probing where town are more or less willing to vote rather than trying to make cases on people for actually being scummy.

So I'll go with Vote: Eddie for now.

Deadline is lunch o'clock tomorrow, so that's accessible to me. If the Eddie wagon doesn't take off, or if enough people persuade me that this is just his normal town playstyle, then I'll be happy to move my vote back to the Awaclus wagon, or to see what else springs up overnight. I'm less happy with the faust one because if he's still alive D3 he'll have even more game stat analysis to help with, and yet won't be able to afford not to be totally pro-town about it.

[Glooble]

This faust wagon happened really fast and I'm not super into it. I'd still rather lynch Awaclus or even MiX. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'd love to know why everyone not named ashersky thinks faust is scummy.

You scumreading Jimmmm and hypothetical scum not wanting to NK him because he is “lynchable” are not the same thing.

Unless you are saying that as scum. Then it is the same thing. I think this is one of those scumthoughts being spoken as a normal thing accidentally. 

Good enough for a vote: faust at this point.

These are the previous reasons ashersky alluded to. I agree it's potentially scummy, but I don't think it's quite enough on its own.

I also have a question for faust. Faust, how random do you think D1 lynches are? Does the size of the game or the fact that its multiball change this?

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Space

[Swowl]

Vote: Awaclus

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.8

MiX (4): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th. That's in less than 12 hours. Also I'm going to sleep in a few hours and I won't be back until shortly before deadline.

[EFHW]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

Isn't that literally the argument you made?

I said it could be a purposeful SK strategy to get town to be thinking there are two teams.

[EFHW]

I'll also accept a faust or Awaclus lynch. Awaclus for their position in the wagon, unquestionable, which means he would (theoretically) be safe from VCAs today and faust for...hey, I actually like the manipulation case! But really just because the only way faust flips scum is if every single town joins on him. I'll have to reread him later...

MiX: What did you mean by every single town having to join on faust? And how hesitant are you, really, about an Awaclus lynch?

I don't think scum wants to bus faust.

I like this point.

[EFHW]

So either:
2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, UncleEurope are all town
or:
faust is town
or:
Scum took MiX's statement and decided to bus faust.

[EFHW]

The first two could simultaneously be true.

[EFHW]

I reread Awaclus and don't want to vote him.

[Uncleeurope]

So either:
2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, UncleEurope are all town
or:
faust is town
or:
Scum took MiX's statement and decided to bus faust.

Or members of another scum team want to kill a scum Faust.

[EFHW]

I don't like any of the 3 main choices. I didn't get any response to my Glooble case, except for him declining to respond. Is his overly helpful style in this game typical of him?

PPE: Eddie. Right.

[EFHW]

Glooble case

[raerae]

Hard no on that bs faust wagon. What in the actual hell??

Extra double super vote: MiX

He's been nothing if not opportunistic, he's jumped into every wagon ever, and lied, there's no other option, vote MiX.

[shraeye]

raerae has got me literally laughing out loud.  But all her points are accurate; faust wagon materializing out of nowhere stinks real bad. 

[WestCoastDidds]

The faust wagon is stinking up the joint! Vote: MiX for being the scummiest of that lot

[Uncleeurope]

The faust wagon is stinking up the joint! Vote: MiX for being the scummiest of that lot

Interesting, so you see MiX as scummier than Awaclus?

[EFHW]

Hard no on that bs faust wagon. What in the actual hell??

Extra double super vote: MiX

He's been nothing if not opportunistic, he's jumped into every wagon ever, and lied, there's no other option, vote MiX.

Wouldn't he be more careful as scum?

[EFHW]

The faust wagon is stinking up the joint! Vote: MiX for being the scummiest of that lot

Interesting, so you see MiX as scummier than Awaclus?

What do you think is scummy about Awaclus? I couldn't find anything.

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t necessarily see anything specific either, just wondering why WCD shad a vote on Awaclus for awhile but now sees MiX as scummier once a power role makes a push on him.

[raerae]

Hard no on that bs faust wagon. What in the actual hell??

Extra double super vote: MiX

He's been nothing if not opportunistic, he's jumped into every wagon ever, and lied, there's no other option, vote MiX.

Wouldn't he be more careful as scum?

Doubtful. I think he'd play up his meta from last game. Too much of a switch would be too obvious

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.9

MiX (5): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
Awaclus (3): faust, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th. That's in less than 12 hours.

Also I'm going to sleep now and I won't be back until shortly before deadline.

[shraeye]

I don’t necessarily see anything specific either, just wondering why WCD shad a vote on Awaclus for awhile but now sees MiX as scummier once a power role makes a push on him.

Isn't anybody pushing anybody "a power role making a push"??

[shraeye]

In addition to the leading wagons, would still support faust or 2.7.  Faust for previous reasons, 2.7 for scumslipping (teams).

How could that be a scumslip?

Isn't that literally the argument you made?

I said it could be a purposeful SK strategy to get town to be thinking there are two teams.

I don't see the difference

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t necessarily see anything specific either, just wondering why WCD shad a vote on Awaclus for awhile but now sees MiX as scummier once a power role makes a push on him.

Isn't anybody pushing anybody "a power role making a push"??

Fine, whatever, but her switching from Awaclus to MiX as “the scummiest player” seems opportunistic.

[raerae]

I don’t necessarily see anything specific either, just wondering why WCD shad a vote on Awaclus for awhile but now sees MiX as scummier once a power role makes a push on him.

Isn't anybody pushing anybody "a power role making a push"??

Fine, whatever, but her switching from Awaclus to MiX as “the scummiest player” seems opportunistic.

But aren't they equally viable at this point? What makes it opportunistic?

[Uncleeurope]

Stating that MiX is the scummiest between the two, after having sat on Awaclus for a long time, and and just throwing that line out seems like justification.

[raerae]

Stating that MiX is the scummiest between the two, after having sat on Awaclus for a long time, and and just throwing that line out seems like justification.

I guess I'd qualify it as odd but not opportunistic. We, however, are allowed to have different opinions of things. Que bueno.

[Uncleeurope]

Stating that MiX is the scummiest between the two, after having sat on Awaclus for a long time, and and just throwing that line out seems like justification.

I guess I'd qualify it as odd but not opportunistic. We, however, are allowed to have different opinions of things. Que bueno.

Well, that’s why I asked WCD.

[shraeye]

Stating that MiX is the scummiest between the two, after having sat on Awaclus for a long time, and and just throwing that line out seems like justification.

But that also describes me, which is sure to make Spaces eyebrows fall off.  Coincidences aside, I am interested in hearing more from WCD

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: WCD

[raerae]

Oh, come on, UncleEddie, you're really trying to make another wagon?? This late in the day?? That's almost as stinky as the faust wagon.

[Uncleeurope]

I was already on Space, not doing anything I haven’t done yet.

And it can’t be stinky if it’s right.

[Swowl]

I was already on Space, not doing anything I haven’t done yet.

And it can’t be stinky if it’s right.

Yes it can. It’s multiball.

[Uncleeurope]

I was already on Space, not doing anything I haven’t done yet.

And it can’t be stinky if it’s right.

Yes it can. It’s multiball.

*shrugs*

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Thar be scum in these here players.

This faust wagon happened really fast and I'm not super into it.

Hard no on that bs faust wagon. What in the actual hell??

faust wagon materializing out of nowhere stinks real bad.

The faust wagon is stinking up the joint!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Don't really mean Glooble with that since he started it.

Also, where is this coming from, I've been pushing faust all game, I've given multiple reasons, Ash was on him for a different reason, MiX is doing self-preservation, Eddie votes for everyone. The only surprise is e, and he's been in lurkmode all day and hadn't really weighed in.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: WCD

You know at a certain point this becomes more a commitment to being useless and having no impact on who gets lynched than a keeping-things-flexible strategy.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: WCD

You know at a certain point this becomes more a commitment to being useless and having no impact on who gets lynched than a keeping-things-flexible strategy.

There are more goals that exist than those two.

[2.71828.....]

So, pretty sure what joth means by "forum time" is actually Pacific US time.

Can you please use a time zone for deadline timelines?

[faust]

Since I am not voting, might as well vote: Faust

Vote: faust

Vote: faust

PPE: Vote: faust while I reread the rest, also wow that's a lot of votes.

Vote: Faust

Nice teaming up when I just went to bed. I think Awaclus's vote for me reinforces my scumread. UoS has kind of explained why he thinks I am scum, and he is onto something, just not what he thinks. I am able to explain myself in a way that I think will show that I am town... but I'd really rather not, so can we just lynch Awaclus?

[2.71828.....]

Vote: WCD

You know at a certain point this becomes more a commitment to being useless and having no impact on who gets lynched than a keeping-things-flexible strategy.

There are more goals that exist than those two.

Like getting yourself lynched?

Vote: Eddie

[faust]

I’ll be around before deadline.

You didn't want to join my wagon? Curios.

[faust]

@faust, do you think EFHW is scum?

Not particularly.

[2.71828.....]

Did I already mention that I am much more inclined to lunch Awaclus than MiX?

Not going to vote there yet, still plenty of time before the deadline

[faust]

I also have a question for faust. Faust, how random do you think D1 lynches are? Does the size of the game or the fact that its multiball change this?

I think D1 lynches are not very random. There are 2 factors coming in, one being town scumhunting, the other the scumteam working together for a mislynch. Both of these lead to a correct lynch ratio that is about the same as random, but that does not mean that the lynch choice is actually random.

I think multiball pushes things towards a) everyone genuinely scumhunting, thus more people scumhunting and potentially better results, but also b) everyone genuinely scumhunting, thus making it harder to pin down scum. i would think that overall this still means you'd get a higher than average chance of lynching scum.

The size of the game definitely makes scumhunting harder, thus allowing scum manipulation to be a bigger factor.

[faust]

So either:
2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, UncleEurope are all town
or:
faust is town
or:
Scum took MiX's statement and decided to bus faust.

I mean, it's the second, but also it's multiball, so this whole argument is fundamentally flawed.

[faust]

Extra double super vote: MiX

I do not assume this is for real, but you know... things like this should be avoided.

[Chickenwarlord]

ChickenWarlord newb pass needs to end tomorrow.

Honestly, given what MiX put out in his analysis a few pages back - I DO seem hella scummy and I'm surprised more people haven't put me as a vote.

That said, I think we gain a lot of info with a faust or an Awaclus lynch.

Vote: Awaclus

If this goes through and Awa is town, I'm going to be giving faust the side-eye, should I remain alive to do so.

[faust]

Thar be scum in these here players.

This faust wagon happened really fast and I'm not super into it.

Hard no on that bs faust wagon. What in the actual hell??

faust wagon materializing out of nowhere stinks real bad.

The faust wagon is stinking up the joint!

Agreed.

[faust]

Also, where is this coming from, I've been pushing faust all game, I've given multiple reasons, Ash was on him for a different reason, MiX is doing self-preservation, Eddie votes for everyone. The only surprise is e, and he's been in lurkmode all day and hadn't really weighed in.

It worth clarifying that ash was not among those voting for me. Awaclus is.

[faust]

The people who readily defend me but refuse to vote Awaclus are the scummiest bunch.

[Chickenwarlord]

The people who readily defend me but refuse to vote Awaclus are the scummiest bunch.

It does seem like there are probably some scum rushing to defend you, so when you turn up dead and town they can claim to have at least been on your side - but framing it that way seems so absolute and offputting.
The same thing looks like it's happening with MiX - who I think is also likely town.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Awaclus

[Chickenwarlord]

Honestly looking at the staunch counterlynch defense for Faust makes me believe that there is at least some concentrated effort going on. It is also possible that he is so off-base that scum also want to keep him alive as well. I'm definitely inclined to agree with UOS here.

[faust]

Honestly looking at the staunch counterlynch defense for Faust makes me believe that there is at least some concentrated effort going on. It is also possible that he is so off-base that scum also want to keep him alive as well. I'm definitely inclined to agree with UOS here.

Hedge hedge hedge.

[MiX]

Vote: Awaclus, great reaction, would vote for faust again. @faust, did you post that NK analysis? Seems like you'll die with that info if you're town.

[faust]

@faust, did you post that NK analysis? Seems like you'll die with that info if you're town.

That's a risk I am willing to take.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: Awaclus, great reaction, would vote for faust again. @faust, did you post that NK analysis? Seems like you'll die with that info if you're town.

Why would he die with the info? Not getting lynched today, do you plan on NKing him?

[Chickenwarlord]

Vote: Awaclus, great reaction, would vote for faust again. @faust, did you post that NK analysis? Seems like you'll die with that info if you're town.

As questionable as I might find your methods - you certainly end up with some interesting results.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Awaclus, great reaction, would vote for faust again. @faust, did you post that NK analysis? Seems like you'll die with that info if you're town.

As questionable as I might find your methods - you certainly end up with some interesting results.

Chicken, you’re looking more and more like a squirrel to me.

[MiX]

Why would he die with the info? Not getting lynched today, do you plan on NKing him?

I assume he's getting NKd, yes.

PPE 1: Uncle, why did you vote for Space?

[MiX]

Why would he die with the info? Not getting lynched today, do you plan on NKing him?

I assume he's getting NKd, yes.

PPE 1: Uncle, why did you vote for Space?

EBWOP

[Uncleeurope]

Space’s concern for me above other potential targets is unsettling to me. In my mind scum want to keep me open as an option to lynch instead of NKing me, so I am wary of all people that seem to be doing just that.

Doesn’t mean that voting for me is automatic scumminess, but it is a little game I am playing. It’s also fun treating the “you suck” rule with a little more weight.

[ashersky]

I’ll be around before deadline.

You didn't want to join my wagon? Curios.

I wanted to hammer your wagon. But you knew that.

[faust]

I’ll be around before deadline.

You didn't want to join my wagon? Curios.

I wanted to hammer your wagon. But you knew that.

How has hammering worked out for you so far?

[ashersky]

I’ll be around before deadline.

You didn't want to join my wagon? Curios.

I wanted to hammer your wagon. But you knew that.

How has hammering worked out for you so far?

Good reminiscing.

[Glooble]

Faust, thanks for answering my question.

joth, can you please verify that vote count 2.9 was correct before posting the next vote count?

[2.71828.....]

All these people speculating on NKs, so much fun

[2.71828.....]

ChickenWarlord newb pass needs to end tomorrow.

Honestly, given what MiX put out in his analysis a few pages back - I DO seem hella scummy and I'm surprised more people haven't put me as a vote.

That said, I think we gain a lot of info with a faust or an Awaclus lynch.

Vote: Awaclus

If this goes through and Awa is town, I'm going to be giving faust the side-eye, should I remain alive to do so.

Vote: chicken

I will be around during my lunch break here for the next hour or so, but then no access until the deadline. I will place a different vote before that time if required

[Uncleeurope]

I haven’t slept yet, and I’m waning fast. I dunno how long I will last.

[MiX]

Vote: chicken, yeah, I'm perfectly fine with this. Chicken, what do you think we should be asking you?

[Awaclus]

How long until deadline?

[Uncleeurope]

An hour and 20ish minutes by my calculations. That’s at least what I am going off of.

[MiX]

How long until deadline?

2 hours and 20 minutes.

Vote: Awaclus

PPE: wait really?

[Chickenwarlord]

Vote: chicken, yeah, I'm perfectly fine with this. Chicken, what do you think we should be asking you?

Honestly, I have no clue. I think the only interesting information I could share would serve scum better than town.
I might actually do a better service to the rest of town leaving behind a record of who was willing to jump off their current vote tracks to lynch me than I ever will by pontificating.

[Uncleeurope]

How long until deadline?

2 hours and 20 minutes.

Vote: Awaclus

PPE: wait really?

I am pretty sure it’s 1:20ish

[SpaceAnemone]

Did the US clocks change or something? I seem to be 4 hours ahead of forum time right now instead of 5!

[Uncleeurope]

Did the US clocks change or something? I seem to be 4 hours ahead of forum time right now instead of 5!

They changed yesterdayish.

[MiX]

Okay yeah Uncle's right, daylight saving or something messed me up. 80 minutes now.

@chicken, who are you voting for and why? I forgot, no time to reread

[SpaceAnemone]

No waiting for lunch break for me, then.

Vote: Awaclus for consolidation.

I'd still like to hear from people who've played with Eddie before about whether they think his play is really town!Eddie, because he's almost declared a scumread on everyone in the game by this point, and I don't like that.

[Uncleeurope]

No waiting for lunch break for me, then.

Vote: Awaclus for consolidation.

I'd still like to hear from people who've played with Eddie before about whether they think his play is really town!Eddie, because he's almost declared a scumread on everyone in the game by this point, and I don't like that.

I’m a paranoid bloke.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.10

MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
Awaclus (7): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
chickenwarlord (1): 2.71828.....

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time (US EST), Monday March 11th. That's in about an hour.

I apologize for Daylight Savings Time and for not reminding people about it. I myself forgot about it until it happens. That said, I don't think a deadline extension would be fair to everyone.

[Uncleeurope]

Space is voting twice there.

[2.71828.....]

Vote: Awaclus

PPE: hammer?

[2.71828.....]

Ok, yeah it was

[Chickenwarlord]

Okay yeah Uncle's right, daylight saving or something messed me up. 80 minutes now.

@chicken, who are you voting for and why? I forgot, no time to reread

I'm voting for Awaclus currently. I don't like the cryptic way that Awa has been presenting their information (though the same could be said for faust as well). Honestly at this point I am a bit lost on exactly what the play is here. All three decently discussed lynches for today give us some good info and I'm more inclined to go with either you or awaclus because of how much longer the both of your have been on the table and analyzed.
I think you are more likely to be town than awaclus.

[faust]

Vote: Awaclus

PPE: hammer?

wtf?

[jotheonah]

joth, can you please verify that vote count 2.9 was correct before posting the next vote count?

Just double-checked it. 2.9 and 2.10 both correct.

[faust]

I'd still like to hear from people who've played with Eddie before about whether they think his play is really town!Eddie, because he's almost declared a scumread on everyone in the game by this point, and I don't like that.

I know I townread him for that stuff when he was scum. But i don't think it is scummy behaviour.

[Uncleeurope]

Awaclus is one loved dude...?

Also, space has two votes, is that intentional?

[2.71828.....]

Awaclus is one loved dude...?

That appears to be the case

[SpaceAnemone]

Just back at my desk and it looks like there might have been a hammer. I'd been going to post a vote count on the tail of my last post, and a comment that I don't really trust MiX and Eddie, who're also on the same wagon as me. I was wavering over moving my vote to the MiX wagon after all.

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning...so early...dailyligt saving stone is hard. Where we at?

[SpaceAnemone]

I'd still like to hear from people who've played with Eddie before about whether they think his play is really town!Eddie, because he's almost declared a scumread on everyone in the game by this point, and I don't like that.

I know I townread him for that stuff when he was scum. But i don't think it is scummy behaviour.

Hmm. Do you think it's behaviour you'd call pro-town on the whole, or just not-very-pro-town behaviour that's not alignment-indicative for him?

[WestCoastDidds]

Do we need another vote on Awaclus?

[Uncleeurope]

Good morning...so early...dailyligt saving stone is hard. Where we at?

Awaclus should be dead but isn’t nearly as dead as is possible.

[SpaceAnemone]

Good morning...so early...dailyligt saving stone is hard. Where we at?

e may or may not have hammered Awaclus.

British summer time doesn't start till the end of the month, so I was totally caught out by the US time-shift!

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 2.10

"Why is that Ferengi wearing a Bajoran uniform!? That seems like something a spy would do!" someone in the mob shouts.

Awaclus has been lynched. He was Rom, station-aligned Neighbor

MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
Awaclus (: faust, Glooble, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow

With 15 alive, it took 8 to lynch. Day 2 ends now.

I will be running an extended night phase to get us onto a schedule that's more conducive to me being available at deadline.

As such, Day 3 will begin at 12 pm forum time/US ET on Wednesday (16:00 GMT). That means night actions are due 12 hours earlier, at midnight Tuesday US ET, or 4:00 am Wednesday GMT.

[jotheonah]

Oh yeah, and THREAD LOCKED.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 3.0

Julian Bashir rushes into the Ward Room. Worf, Dax, and O’Brien are already waiting for him.

“Sorry I’m late,” he says and mutters something about cell cultures.

“I have unfortunate news,” Worf says. “Our mysterious assailants have struck again. Last night, someone snuck into Odo’s quarters while he was in his liquid state and vaporized his bucket.”

Glooble is dead. He was Odo, Station-aligned flavor cop.

“Mr. Bariel, I’d like you to appoint a new— Where is Mr. Bariel?”

“Computer, locate Vedek Bariel,” Dax says.

“Vedek Bariel is in his quarters.”

The crew rushes to the habitat ring, where they find the Vedek’s body stabbed through with a Bajoran ceremonial knife. The words “The Prophets Can’t Help You Now” are carved into the wall above him.

A thorough search of his quarters also turns up a crate of stolen weapons with a shipping label on it — he was about to send it to a Maquis colony on the Cardassian Border!

Shraeye is dead. He was Vedek Bariel, Maquis-aligned universal backup.

Not voting (12): raerae, ashersky, WestCoastDidds, faust, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., EFHW, UmbrageOfSnow

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 begins now.

Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th .

THREAD UNLOCKED.

[faust]

Ah, we get a scum flip. I guess that means it's reread time.

I know some of you will have questions. I have answers, but they require me to roleclaim.

[MiX]

Vote: faust

Well, that was a good night. I need to reread shraeye now.

PPE: can I ever get first post?

[2.71828.....]

Purple is usually SK, so rereading might not reveal too much of you are looking for a partner

[2.71828.....]

I really should read the setup more carefully now

[faust]

I really should read the setup more carefully now

You should. Maquis is not SK.

[2.71828.....]

I really should read the setup more carefully now

You should. Maquis is not SK.

Ok, got it now.

[2.71828.....]

Ah, we get a scum flip. I guess that means it's reread time.

I know some of you will have questions. I have answers, but they require me to roleclaim.

I don't want to be trapped into a mass claim yet, but if you want to claim anything be my guest

[EFHW]

Ah, we get a scum flip. I guess that means it's reread time.

I know some of you will have questions. I have answers, but they require me to roleclaim.

Why do we have questions? Because of your interactions with Shraeye?

[2.71828.....]

I am glad that scum killed shraeye, I would never have lynched them

[jotheonah]

Glooble is now back-up mod. He will be doing vote counts from time to time.

[Uncleeurope]

Ah, we get a scum flip. I guess that means it's reread time.

I know some of you will have questions. I have answers, but they require me to roleclaim.

What were the odds (based on a rough understanding of your opinion) that Awaclus was scum to you going into/out of day 2? If that’s too revealing then ignore this question completely.

Also, props to Shraeye, he got me.

[SpaceAnemone]

Ah, we get a scum flip. I guess that means it's reread time.

I know some of you will have questions. I have answers, but they require me to roleclaim.

Why do we have questions? Because of your interactions with Shraeye?

My main concern around faust is that he was a major driver of the Awaclus mislynch.

[MiX]

A quick reread gave me this:

- shraeye mentioned {mcmcs, Glooble, Umbrage, Awaclus, Jimmmm} D1, asking Swan what he thought of these players. Seeing as shraeye's team killed Glooble, does this mean Umbrage is not Maquis? WIFOM, but I don't think shraeye's scumteam would forget about this.

- Getting a funny vibe from Uncle!shraeye, I think it increased my scumread on him. Very very slim, I'll need to ISO Uncle...

- faust: "e, shraeye, Awaclus, Jimmmmm" when talking about potential lynches (#480), pushes Jimmmmm D1, then Awaclus D2, e said "I find that scum will usually include a teammate on a "people to lynch" post, then just not really go after that person" (#536), did faust ever go after shraeye? Food for thought.

- #620 is a big readlist from shraeye: would they bus here? I'm thinking no, so ash isn't Maquis. Especially when conf!town is his other scumread there (and doesn't vote there). Or is this why Glooble died? But he kept pushing ash all D1...although he did go for LL eventually.

- raerae kept saying shraeye didn't deserve the townpoints D1, I think it means raerae's not Maquis but it's very very weak...

If it's not obvious, I believe we should try to get shraeye's partners today and/or faust. Unless we actually do a massclaim or something, I was thinking about it but since scum flipped it's not of utmost importance.

[faust]

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I absolutely am opposed to mass claim today. Faust-claim will be relevant, whether he's scum or not. Weird no scum shot him after that hint.

We absolutely should all reread shraeye interactions, although I don't have time to do that today.

I was right about there being scum in shraeye/raerae/WCD apparently, but that doesn't make WCD and raerae less likely to be scum.

It does probably make them somewhat less likely to be scum with shraeye.

Vote: faust

[faust]

I was right about there being scum in shraeye/raerae/WCD apparently, but that doesn't make WCD and raerae less likely to be scum.

It does probably make them somewhat less likely to be scum with shraeye.

But... if they're less likely to be shraeye's partners, that does mean they are less likely scum...

[Uncleeurope]

Also keep an eye on Chicken, he is a squirrelly, squirrelly chicken...

[EFHW]

Ah, we get a scum flip. I guess that means it's reread time.

I know some of you will have questions. I have answers, but they require me to roleclaim.

Why do we have questions? Because of your interactions with Shraeye?

My main concern around faust is that he was a major driver of the Awaclus mislynch.

The people that followed him are equally responsible in my mind. But, yeah, ok.

[raerae]

Ah, we get a scum flip. I guess that means it's reread time.

I know some of you will have questions. I have answers, but they require me to roleclaim.

All the answers, huh? That seems exceedingly confident. I don't trust exceedingly confident. Please don't claim just yet but this post just seems weird.

[raerae]

Vote: faust

Well, that was a good night. I need to reread shraeye now.

PPE: can I ever get first post?

Dumb vote. Why would you do that? You think faust killed glooble? You think faust is shraeye's buddy? Dumb vote.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

My main concern around faust is that he was a major driver of the Awaclus mislynch.

Vote Count 2.6

Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, shraeye, Glooble
MiX (4): raerae, Awaclus, chickenwarlord, ashersky
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
chickenwarlord (1): Uncleeurope

Not voting (5): 2.71828....., SpaceAnemone, EFHW, DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th.

Vote Count 2.7

Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, SpaceAnemone
MiX (4): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, UncleEurope
Glooble (1): EFHW

Not voting (1):  DatSwan

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th. That's in 12 hours and change.

Vote Count 2.9

Awaclus (3): faust, Glooble, DatSwan
MiX (5): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch most players. Day 2 ends at 8:00 am forum time, Monday March 11th. That's in less than 12 hours.

Vote Count 2.10

Awaclus (: faust, Glooble, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
Glooble (1): EFHW

Space did a lot to contribute to the Awaclus mislynch, and it's a scummy push on faust (who is scummy.)

Makes me think Space probably isn't scum with MiX though.

[raerae]

I really should read the setup more carefully now

This is at least the third time you've said that. You actually planning on doing that or just riding out the "I don't know anything card" to the end?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I was right about there being scum in shraeye/raerae/WCD apparently, but that doesn't make WCD and raerae less likely to be scum.

It does probably make them somewhat less likely to be scum with shraeye.

But... if they're less likely to be shraeye's partners, that does mean they are less likely scum...

In a vacuum, sure, you're the best kind of correct. But I think SK or other scumteam would also be more likely than average to jump on a trend like that. I'll agree that I find them less scummy from that than I did yesterday, but I'm saying it's not a reason to townread them and is probably worth some scumpoints.

[faust]

Okay, claim time.

I am Quark, a Ferengi. I was in the neighborhood with Awaclus. We know that there is no SK among the Ferengi (or among the UB, but that's useless now).

So, here's how I felt. I thought I was quite townie D1, you know, people were tonwreading me and I fought the Robz lynch and stuff. I figured I had a pretty big target on my back because I'm dangerous to scum as any alignment. But I didn't die. So I wondered, why is this? And it came to me: if scum is in the Ferengi neighborhood, then they know that I am not a strong PR. So that gives them reason to not kill me off.

Here I started to suspect Awaclus. I did believe the wagon position stuff I talked about, but it was not as strong evidence as I made it out to be. As the day moved on, I thought that it would be beneficial to push really hard and basically softclaim a guilty result on Awaclus. The idea being that if scum is among the Ferengi, they will know I'm not a Cop, and that will make them react to me differently than town who would probably at some point assume that I'm a Cop. This is reflected also in a post I made towards the end of D2 where I said people thinking I am town and not voting Awaclus are scummy - because townies thinking I am town should also think that I have a Cop result. One of these, coincidentally, was shraeye.

I always knew there was a risk of Awaclus being town. That of course makes the whole thing less conclusive. But I thought if he is, then at least his lynch protects the Cops.

In the light of Awaclus's flip, I was debating whether my remaining Neighbor is scum. I think however that the shraeye kill gives us better evidence and I will refrain from outing them for now.

A final thing: Since there is no SK in the Ferengi, the SK Cop should not target us. YOu don't know who the last Ferengi is, but I can provide a list of some names at the end of today that does not include my Neighbor, so the SK Cop can have an effective investigation.

PPE 7

[raerae]

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

Your wrong.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: faust

Well, that was a good night. I need to reread shraeye now.

PPE: can I ever get first post?

Dumb vote. Why would you do that? You think faust killed glooble? You think faust is shraeye's buddy? Dumb vote.

So you're townreading faust off the Glooble kill?

[faust]

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

Your wrong.

Impossible, this is D3, I am never wrong beyond D2.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, so I need to reread faust and shraeye.

[raerae]

Vote: faust

Well, that was a good night. I need to reread shraeye now.

PPE: can I ever get first post?

Dumb vote. Why would you do that? You think faust killed glooble? You think faust is shraeye's buddy? Dumb vote.

So you're townreading faust off the Glooble kill?

It was the second post of the day with zero explanation and the "I guess I need to reread" comment. It has nothing to do with how I feel, it's just a dumb vote.

[raerae]

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

Your wrong.

Impossible, this is D3, I am never wrong beyond D2.

Sheesh, I knew I was forgetting something.

Vote: raerae

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So how do you feel?

[Uncleeurope]

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

Your wrong.

Impossible, this is D3, I am never wrong beyond D2.

Sheesh, I knew I was forgetting something.

Vote: raerae

Hehe

[raerae]

So how do you feel?

A little bit hungry, if I'm being honest.  But re: the game, I haven't looked back to see if glooble's death says anything about faust or shraeye. I think shraeye is the kind of scum to kill somebody who's lightly suspicious of him but not the most obvious person. That being said, he has teammates and I don't know how they factor into this but I'm sure he'd try to make sure his team did the same. So, when I get some time, I'll peek back and see if glooble had a middling level scumread, that's the person I'll be voting for today.

Unvote

[raerae]

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

Your wrong.

Impossible, this is D3, I am never wrong beyond D2.

Sheesh, I knew I was forgetting something.

Vote: raerae

Hehe

Appropriate towncred assigned.

[faust]

So, when I get some time, I'll peek back and see if glooble had a middling level scumread, that's the person I'll be voting for today.

You certainly have a strange idea of scumhunting. We have a scum flip, and your top priority is to reread some dead townie?

[MiX]

That's a very interesting claim. I have to admit, faust having a cop result on Awaclus was the last thing I assumed when I saw faust doing that.

Unvote

PPE: everything but faust's claim

[Uncleeurope]

That's a very interesting claim. I have to admit, faust having a cop result on Awaclus was the last thing I assumed when I saw faust doing that.

Unvote

PPE: everything but faust's claim

It was the first thing I assumed, and I don’t know why you wouldn’t see that.

[raerae]

So, when I get some time, I'll peek back and see if glooble had a middling level scumread, that's the person I'll be voting for today.

You certainly have a strange idea of scumhunting. We have a scum flip, and your top priority is to reread some dead townie?

Yeah, rereading shraeye isn't going to tell me anything, he doesn't interact with his partners any differently than he interacts with anybody else.

[WestCoastDidds]

When I was driving home from work I thought "I wonder if faust was a Ferengi with Awaclus and that is his big news" and then it was! I am never right about guesses like that so I am pleased that I thought of that one.  Of course that is neither here nor there.

Anyway, like everyone else, I need to go back and read Shraeye. He wasn't anywhere near my radar so that seems especially helpful to us today.

[Swowl]

well I had a good VCA done, but the skum flip means I need to edit it. will have some stuff to go off of tonight.

[Swowl]

also people should scan glooble for potential crumbs

[Uncleeurope]

also people should scan glooble for potential crumbs

I don’t think I would crumb in his position. I don’t think anyway.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 3.1

Quark comes into work in the morning and is surprised to find his nephew standing outside with a phaser rifle.

“What are you doing?” he asks Nog, “I thought you were working in engineering now?”

Nog looks straight ahead, soldier-like. “Acting Captain Worf says until the murderers are caught all available personnel are to be redirected to security. With Odo gone, he wanted someone he could trust watching the bar.”

A smile starts to spread across Quark’s face.

“So the Federation sent you to keep an eye on your old uncle, did they?” he says. He glances around to make sure no one else is in ear shot. “What’ll it be? 10%?”

“You’re not going to be able to bribe me to overlook smuggling, uncle.” says Nog, resolute.

“20%” says Quark, “And you’re already a better negotiator than your father was.”

“Uncle I’m a Starfleet officer now,” says Nog.

“But Rule of Acquisition number 98 still applies,” Quark says to himself as he heads back to the bar. “Every man has his price. And you can bet I’m going to find yours.”

Vote count:

faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
raerae (1): faust
Not Voting (10): raerae, ashersky, WestCoastDidds, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., EFHW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players.

Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th .

[SpaceAnemone]

also people should scan glooble for potential crumbs

He was a flavour cop, though, right? Is crumbing going to give us anything useful without knowing anz results he got, given that flavour and alignment are mostly decoupled?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space did a lot to contribute to the Awaclus mislynch, and it's a scummy push on faust (who is scummy.)

Makes me think Space probably isn't scum with MiX though.

You quote a series of voting states that show me taking time to read, looking elsewhere, forming my own scumreads and rejecting the idea of just sheeping the main wagon without thinking, then finally consolidating when there was insufficient response to the reads I shared. You miss out all the explanation I gave, but that's kind of okay, because I do that all the time when I focus on the wagons and where the votes go. Anyway, I assert that the sequence you posted does nothing to support your argument that I did "a lot" to contribute to the Awaclus myslinch.. pretty much all I did do was vote at the end there.

I do feel a bit exonerated by the fact that faust has now come out and said that he was deliberately manipulating people into assuming he had a PR-related reason for wanting the vote to go to Awaclus, because his post about people who townread him needing to vote Awaclus was definitely an influence on me in the end there.

[SpaceAnemone]

With Awaclus flipping town, we get better PoE on the early e wagon:

2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
(My counting script translates LL to EFHW, though I think it was still LL at this earlier point in the game. Also, I'm underlining the flipped people since I haven't asked whether I'm allowed to use flip colours in posts.)

WCD stayed there on the end from #482 to #550, but the others were there from #437 to #643. And of the others, only e and EFHW are alive, and all the flips have been station-aligned. My conclusion is that there's probably a ~50% chance that each of them is scum from my perspective, given that I could be wrong about it not being a fully town-on-town wagon, but also the chance that they're both scums of opposite flavours, or even that LaFHW was bussing.

Question for Mods: am I allowed to use flip colours for flipped players in posts I make about wagons?

[SpaceAnemone]

The D2 MiX wagon from #1015 to #1086 is also quite coloured-in now, though this time we have a scum on it:

MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble

I think this kind of wagon positioning is not too likely to occur if raerae is on the Maquis faction with Shraeye.

I think it's possible that MiX is Maquis and raerae is town or another scum faction (especially if the other faction is a three-person outfit). The hypothesis that MiX could be Maquis is also supported by the fact that Shraeye was the first person to leave the wagon, moving to the competing Awaclus wagon at #1091. Not super-strong evidence, but worth adding to the pile.

If MiX and raerae are both town, then it's probably weak evidence that the other faction is a singleton, because the other wagon that was happening at this point was the Awaclus wagon, and he's another person who probably looks like an easy mislynch to commit to.

[SpaceAnemone]

How likely do people who know Joth well think it is for him to have rolled a game, landed in a three-plus-one scum scenario, then decided to assign the three-person faction the purple colour, saving the more traditional red flip colour for the singleton SK?

[MiX]

How likely do people who know Joth well think it is for him to have rolled a game, landed in a three-plus-one scum scenario, then decided to assign the three-person faction the purple colour, saving the more traditional red flip colour for the singleton SK?

I actually assumed Maquis flipped red, MU flipped purple and Changeling flipped black. Now I'm wondering where I got this idea from...

[jotheonah]

Question for Mods: am I allowed to use flip colours for flipped players in posts I make about wagons?

I don’t see the harm. Go ahead.

[raerae]

Working on a reread of glooble and hit a button, went back a page, everything reloaded so now I'm annoyed and I'll finish later. In the meantime, glooble had a townread on faust but was suspicious of UoS. EFHW was pushing a gloobs lunch unsuccessfully.

[ashersky]

also people should scan glooble for potential crumbs

He was a flavour cop, though, right? Is crumbing going to give us anything useful without knowing anz results he got, given that flavour and alignment are mostly decoupled?

Flavor Cop in this setup is Role Cop.  It's useful for confirming claims and/or finding out roles.  It's mildly more useful for scum than town, in my opinion.

I doubt he crumbed, lest he out a town power role that matters.  I wouldn't.

[ashersky]

I don't like faust actively deceiving everyone, but I think it makes him more likely to be town than before.  It's too on-the-nose for a scum gambit.

Glooble dying is sad, but gaining a second mod (twin at that) is cool, so I'll call it a wash.

Scum NKing scum is best for town early, I think, so yay scum there.  I think shraeye was targeted for being towny, though, not scummy.  So I'm guessing that's a backfire there.

At least this game is down to a manageable population.

[EFHW]

Working on a reread of glooble and hit a button, went back a page, everything reloaded so now I'm annoyed and I'll finish later. In the meantime, glooble had a townread on faust but was suspicious of UoS. EFHW was pushing a gloobs lunch unsuccessfully.

Could one reason they nk'd him, since he was proving difficult to lynch.

[EFHW]

I believe faust, but his plan hurt us.

[Swowl]

also people should scan glooble for potential crumbs

He was a flavour cop, though, right? Is crumbing going to give us anything useful without knowing anz results he got, given that flavour and alignment are mostly decoupled?

yeah that is a fair point. role doesn't actually indicate anything about alignment. Also I looked and found nothing.

[faust]

How likely do people who know Joth well think it is for him to have rolled a game, landed in a three-plus-one scum scenario, then decided to assign the three-person faction the purple colour, saving the more traditional red flip colour for the singleton SK?

Any reasonable mod would have determined colours prior to rolling the setup.

[faust]

It is notable that shraeye flipping Maquis makes an SK scenario less likely (from 2/3 down to 1/2) - actual probabilities are a bit lower as you have to factor in the Ferengi info. The threat of dobule scum teams is real.

[ashersky]

It is notable that shraeye flipping Maquis makes an SK scenario less likely (from 2/3 down to 1/2) - actual probabilities are a bit lower as you have to factor in the Ferengi info. The threat of dobule scum teams is real.

Isn’t this just Monty Hall?  You had three doors, shown one, now the other two move up from 1/3 to 1/2.

[ashersky]

Put differently it was

A+B
A+C
B+C

You just learned one of the letters is in play, so it just removes one option.  It doesn’t make one or the other more likely, just lowers the chance from 2/3 to 1/2 for both.

[faust]

Vote: e

[Swowl]

So:
1) Faust would not lie about the SK not being in Ferengi  because the remaining Ferengi  would immediately know they were lying, if they were lyning. Non option.

2) Set up says that the Ferengi  will be informed of ONE alignment that is not in the Ferengi. So, even though we must assume there is no SK... there is no reason to assume there is no mafia.

3) I do not understand why Faust felt the need to claim here. What are they actually doing? Nothing! The other skum faction now knows what... not to kill faust? It doesn't really matter what his alignment is. It also of course comes out as super towny... which is something that faust literally never cares about.

4) Skum team A would leave Faust alive to get the point I am supposed to make here, being - "hey, why is faust still alive?"

5) Voting actions on Awaclus make sense as town, but they also make sense for someone in Ferengi that is skum knowing Awaclus was Town (one less to deal with).

6) This is exactly the point in time of the game I would expect a skum team to make a bold play in order to dictate lynch candidates, or at the minimum remove themselves from the pool.

I completely disagree that this claim was helpful. It has told us essentially nothing. It has just given skum that is not apart of Faust's  team a reason to NOT target Faust.

Vote: Faust

[EFHW]

5). ScumA!faust wouldn't know if Awaclus was town.

[EFHW]

5). Scum!faust wouldn't know if Awaclus was town.

ebwop

[EFHW]

5). Scum!faust wouldn't know if Awaclus was town.

ebwop

It doesn't matter either way. Why is point 5 in there? I don't think your overall argument works.

[faust]

3) I do not understand why Faust felt the need to claim here. What are they actually doing? Nothing! The other skum faction now knows what... not to kill faust? It doesn't really matter what his alignment is. It also of course comes out as super towny... which is something that faust literally never cares about.

People were starting to vote for me. I would not be able to dispel that suspicion without claiming. As UoS said on D2 already, I looked like I was manipulating people... because well I did try that. Without context people would rightfully read that as scummy.

Second, Ferengi claim is beneficial to some extent, as we can ensure that the SK Cop investigates someone who isn't already guaranteed to be non-SK. I debated whether this was worth claiming for back in D1, but decided it wasn't then. Now the potential target pool is smaller and remvoing more people from it more effective, and did I mention I had to claim anyway?

It's also plain wrong to say that I don't care about being towny. I care about being towny all the time as any alignment. I get positively giddy when I make a play makes me look like town. I'm sure you can find lots of evidence for this.

5) Voting actions on Awaclus make sense as town, but they also make sense for someone in Ferengi that is skum knowing Awaclus was Town (one less to deal with).

A scum!Ferengi would not know that Awaclus is town. Also scum would much rather get rid of some player with an actual chance of being a dangerous PR.

6) This is exactly the point in time of the game I would expect a skum team to make a bold play in order to dictate lynch candidates, or at the minimum remove themselves from the pool.

Where does my post dictate lynch candidates? It should also be obvious rereading me that the decision to make this play was made D2, not D3.

I completely disagree that this claim was helpful. It has told us essentially nothing. It has just given skum that is not apart of Faust's  team a reason to NOT target Faust.

It is good if scum has incentive not to target me. That makes it more likely that they will target other scum.

PPE 3

[MiX]

Second, Ferengi claim is beneficial to some extent, as we can ensure that the SK Cop investigates someone who isn't already guaranteed to be non-SK. I debated whether this was worth claiming for back in D1, but decided it wasn't then. Now the potential target pool is smaller and remvoing more people from it more effective, and did I mention I had to claim anyway?

Did you forget about the changes to the setup? You've made this mistake twice now. Once you said "odds of SK are 2/3" which is something joth changed, and now you forgot SK cop's even night!

[faust]

Second, Ferengi claim is beneficial to some extent, as we can ensure that the SK Cop investigates someone who isn't already guaranteed to be non-SK. I debated whether this was worth claiming for back in D1, but decided it wasn't then. Now the potential target pool is smaller and remvoing more people from it more effective, and did I mention I had to claim anyway?

Did you forget about the changes to the setup? You've made this mistake twice now. Once you said "odds of SK are 2/3" which is something joth changed, and now you forgot SK cop's even night!

Where does it say that the odds of SK are not 2/3?

You're right about the SK Cop though. For some reason I thought it was odd night. I swear I even looked up that stuff during D1, and ever since was convinced of it being odd night.

[MiX]

"I had another thought about the setup. I’m going to pick the scum configuration with 2 coin flips rather than randomly choosing two of three teams. I think it’s better that it’s 50/50 SK+scum or scumx2 rather than 33/66 so town doesn’t get a “default assumption”." - #11

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

[MiX]

Quick reread of chicken because he's weird made me conclude:

- He's mad lurking.

- Gives barely any reasons for his reads.

- Did not even mention shraeye.

So I doubt he's Maquis. Should I withold my reread conclusions? I don't wanna make a big post with them, that's too hard on mobile, but not sure if these quickies should be shared...

[2.71828.....]

Share everything, hiding thoughts from us is scummy

[faust]

Share everything, hiding thoughts from us is scummy

No.

[SpaceAnemone]

How likely do people who know Joth well think it is for him to have rolled a game, landed in a three-plus-one scum scenario, then decided to assign the three-person faction the purple colour, saving the more traditional red flip colour for the singleton SK?

Any reasonable mod would have determined colours prior to rolling the setup.

Your statement does not actually answer my question ;-)

Also, I think using the traditional red and purple for the two scum/SK colours, randomising them after the teams are rolled, is totally in line with perfect modding, and yet is not the same as your "any reasonable mod" protocol above.

[SpaceAnemone]

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Really? How do you know?

[MiX]

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Really? How do you know?

"Faust at #306: "Note also that the SK (which has a 2/3 chance of existing) is Bulletproof, so scum has further incentive not to shoot scummy people, and the SK has no incentive to shoot scum."" -#1244

Deduction skills unmatched!

[Chickenwarlord]

Well, the Maquis flip is nice - especially since it's the UB.
Time to go and look at the faust defense wagon and MiX hunting from yesterday with current knowledge.

[MiX]

First of all, WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Now, if other scum had Maquis cop, do you think they would ever kill shraeye? They could just make sure their target isn't Maquis every night (except N1), by copping N1 who they wanna kill D2, right? So, should Maquis cop claim to get an IC and (potencially) 2 others? (If we're trying to lynch Maquis today, which I think we should)

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Thoughts?

[Uncleeurope]

I would think the current day would hold more sway over kill choices.

[Chickenwarlord]

First of all, WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Now, if other scum had Maquis cop, do you think they would ever kill shraeye?

This is making the assumption that there was no busdriving shenanigans. We do have a setup in which shraeye not being the initial target is possible.
I am not a big fan of a maquis cop claim, since if we are aiming for maquis should we look no further than your own lynchwagon yesterday MiX? If shraeye was maquis, it is likely that at least one other was involved in voting for you. Starting there might be better than having a cop out in the open if you want to go maquis hunting.

[MiX]

Bus driving...well, I see no reason to assume a 1-shot role worked so well, but...dammit, why don't my plans work?

Of course rereading is better, this was just an option for after. By the way, the other involved in voting me is raerae.

Vote: raerae, maybe.

[faust]

How likely do people who know Joth well think it is for him to have rolled a game, landed in a three-plus-one scum scenario, then decided to assign the three-person faction the purple colour, saving the more traditional red flip colour for the singleton SK?

Any reasonable mod would have determined colours prior to rolling the setup.

Your statement does not actually answer my question ;-)

Also, I think using the traditional red and purple for the two scum/SK colours, randomising them after the teams are rolled, is totally in line with perfect modding, and yet is not the same as your "any reasonable mod" protocol above.

Well, Maquis had the same colour in the original run of this setup, if that helps you.

[faust]

"I had another thought about the setup. I’m going to pick the scum configuration with 2 coin flips rather than randomly choosing two of three teams. I think it’s better that it’s 50/50 SK+scum or scumx2 rather than 33/66 so town doesn’t get a “default assumption”." - #11

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Welp, that sort of stuff should really be somewhere in the setup post and not hidden in some random comment. I guess this means that the chance of having an SK are actually at below 25% now. Ugh.

[SpaceAnemone]

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Really? How do you know?

"Faust at #306: "Note also that the SK (which has a 2/3 chance of existing) is Bulletproof, so scum has further incentive not to shoot scummy people, and the SK has no incentive to shoot scum."" -#1244

Deduction skills unmatched!

You said "I know Space...", then when I asked how you know, you quoted faust. This makes no sense to me. Please could you explain your logic?

[MiX]

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Really? How do you know?

"Faust at #306: "Note also that the SK (which has a 2/3 chance of existing) is Bulletproof, so scum has further incentive not to shoot scummy people, and the SK has no incentive to shoot scum."" -#1244

Deduction skills unmatched!

You said "I know Space...", then when I asked how you know, you quoted faust. This makes no sense to me. Please could you explain your logic?

Post #1244 is yours...

[MiX]

"I had another thought about the setup. I’m going to pick the scum configuration with 2 coin flips rather than randomly choosing two of three teams. I think it’s better that it’s 50/50 SK+scum or scumx2 rather than 33/66 so town doesn’t get a “default assumption”." - #11

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Welp, that sort of stuff should really be somewhere in the setup post and not hidden in some random comment. I guess this means that the chance of having an SK are actually at below 25% now. Ugh.

How? What? He did a coinflip to determine if SK existed, and then, if he does, another coinflip for what scumteam's in. Can you confirm this? Only logical explanation.

[faust]

First of all, WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Now, if other scum had Maquis cop, do you think they would ever kill shraeye? They could just make sure their target isn't Maquis every night (except N1), by copping N1 who they wanna kill D2, right? So, should Maquis cop claim to get an IC and (potencially) 2 others? (If we're trying to lynch Maquis today, which I think we should)

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Thoughts?

1. This does not work. If they Cop someone N1 and get Maquis, then what do they do N2? They cannot guarantee that their target isn't Maquis.

But more importantly,
2. I do not understand what incentive to other scum team would have to avoid shooting Maquises.

[faust]

"I had another thought about the setup. I’m going to pick the scum configuration with 2 coin flips rather than randomly choosing two of three teams. I think it’s better that it’s 50/50 SK+scum or scumx2 rather than 33/66 so town doesn’t get a “default assumption”." - #11

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Welp, that sort of stuff should really be somewhere in the setup post and not hidden in some random comment. I guess this means that the chance of having an SK are actually at below 25% now. Ugh.

How? What? He did a coinflip to determine if SK existed, and then, if he does, another coinflip for what scumteam's in. Can you confirm this? Only logical explanation.

Yes.

50% 2 scum teams
50% scum + SK, of these we have 25% SK + Mirror Universe and 25% SK + Maquis.

The actual likelihood of SK is somewhat lower because the knowledge that there is no SK among the Ferengi pushes the likelihood of having an SK down via conditional probability.

[SpaceAnemone]

How likely do people who know Joth well think it is for him to have rolled a game, landed in a three-plus-one scum scenario, then decided to assign the three-person faction the purple colour, saving the more traditional red flip colour for the singleton SK?

Any reasonable mod would have determined colours prior to rolling the setup.

Your statement does not actually answer my question ;-)

Also, I think using the traditional red and purple for the two scum/SK colours, randomising them after the teams are rolled, is totally in line with perfect modding, and yet is not the same as your "any reasonable mod" protocol above.

Well, Maquis had the same colour in the original run of this setup, if that helps you.

Yep, I'm aware of that because I went and looked it up before posting my original query.

Again, you're answering my posts without engaging with the speculation I'm really interested in :-P

Though I think with the <25% setup point, we're coming to the conclusion that it is more likely than not that we're in a two-scum-team scenario. Which is presumably good for you personally, isn't it? I would think makes the chances of the other Ferengi being town much higher, considering Joth's earlier slip about what he'd do if both scum factions were in the group QT.

PPE 4

[MiX]

First of all, WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Now, if other scum had Maquis cop, do you think they would ever kill shraeye? They could just make sure their target isn't Maquis every night (except N1), by copping N1 who they wanna kill D2, right? So, should Maquis cop claim to get an IC and (potencially) 2 others? (If we're trying to lynch Maquis today, which I think we should)

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Thoughts?

1. This does not work. If they Cop someone N1 and get Maquis, then what do they do N2? They cannot guarantee that their target isn't Maquis.

But more importantly,
2. I do not understand what incentive to other scum team would have to avoid shooting Maquises.

1) That was all part of my plan: if scum!Maquis came out, they would say 2 inno results (or 1 in N2), and then we could reread to see if they were trying to breadcrumb their actual N1 guilty result in D2.

2) They would rather lynch, of course.

[faust]

Though I think with the <25% setup point, we're coming to the conclusion that it is more likely than not that we're in a two-scum-team scenario. Which is presumably good for you personally, isn't it? I would think makes the chances of the other Ferengi being town much higher, considering Joth's earlier slip about what he'd do if both scum factions were in the group QT.

I would love for this to be true, but wasn't that slip only about the possibility of the Ferengis being all scum? [checks back] Yes. But Awaclus already flipped town!Ferengi, so this does nothing.

[MiX]

Yes.

50% 2 scum teams
50% scum + SK, of these we have 25% SK + Mirror Universe and 25% SK + Maquis.

The actual likelihood of SK is somewhat lower because the knowledge that there is no SK among the Ferengi pushes the likelihood of having an SK down via conditional probability.

This is fair, but that decreases it to 33%, never less.

[MiX]

No SK is bad because then Ferengi info is useless. Besides, multiball seems harder for town, am I right? Feels very easy to create a scum v scum situation where town has very low odds to win.

[SpaceAnemone]

I know Space caught on this, so I kinda wanna hear what they think of it.

Really? How do you know?

"Faust at #306: "Note also that the SK (which has a 2/3 chance of existing) is Bulletproof, so scum has further incentive not to shoot scummy people, and the SK has no incentive to shoot scum."" -#1244

Deduction skills unmatched!

You said "I know Space...", then when I asked how you know, you quoted faust. This makes no sense to me. Please could you explain your logic?

Post #1244 is yours...

Oh! Okay, that's my bad for misunderstanding your word choice. "To catch onto something" is to understand it, so I thought you meant I knew about the change in likelihoods, which I was objecting to because I did not. I now think you mean something more along the lines of "Space was caught out by the change", i.e. I did not know.

PPE 4

[WestCoastDidds]

My head is spinning a bot from all the probability talk.... Space says that we seem to be converging on the idea we are likely dealing with 2 scum teams.  Is that accurate?  So 5 out of the remaining 12 players.  Holy cow....that's a lot of scum.

Today is my long teaching day (but spring break starts tomorrow so I am as giddy as town!faust about the idea of a week off of work!) so I won't be able to dedicate time or energy until later today or tomorrow.

vote: EFHW because the LL feelings from before haven't really gone away and 5/12 is pretty good odds.

PPE: a couple

[faust]

2) They would rather lynch, of course.

Mf, maybe, but they don't want to claim Cop, so they cannot guarantee a lynch. And the sooner get get another scum to flip, the sooner town focuses their efforts on finding that scum's partners. Which helps them. Also shooting someone they don't know anything about means they stilll have more total info going into the later game. I don't think this is clear cut at all.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: WCD

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 3.2

With most people holing up in their quarters, business is slow at Quark's. But he does have two customers quickly drinking through his supply of booze: fearless General Martok and dependable drunk Morn. Morn is telling Martok a long and elaborate story about his second cousin.

Vote count:

faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow, DatSwan
2.71828..... (1): faust
raerae (1): MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
WestCoastDidds (1): Uncleeurope

Not Voting (10): raerae, ashersky, chickenwarlord, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., EFHW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th .

[MiX]

Oh! Okay, that's my bad for misunderstanding your word choice. "To catch onto something" is to understand it, so I thought you meant I knew about the change in likelihoods, which I was objecting to because I did not. I now think you mean something more along the lines of "Space was caught out by the change", i.e. I did not know.

I meant you caught on faust's mistake. Why did you quote that faust post then? That confuses me now.

PPE 4

[EFHW]

Space, could you post the voting blow by blow for Days 1 and 2 in the little "code" box, like you did before in a previous game?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, could you post the voting blow by blow for Days 1 and 2 in the little "code" box, like you did before in a previous game?

Sure, but I won't get a chance till later/tomorrow.

In related news, I'm at something like 30% of my normal capacity right now due to an illness that is leaving me really fuzzy-headed and unfocused. Though I've made it to the office this afternoon, which is an improvement :-)

[raerae]

Cool, so I've finished the D2 glooble reread and he mentions suspicion of MiX at #1015, #1126, #1241, and #1302. He's semi-suspicious of e in #1152 but doesn't hit on that again. He pushes UoS a couple times, disagreeing with things UoS said but not assigning any actual scumpoints. #888 was his wagon analysis and he says there's likely scum in UoS, Space, chicken, and DS for their place on wagon, and Didds for her vote explanation.

Based on this, I'm game for a MiX lunch. Glooble died for a reason and MiX was the one he was on the fence of all day (other than Awaclus, obviously).

Vote: MiX

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: raerae

[raerae]

Vote: raerae

Because??

[EFHW]

Space, could you post the voting blow by blow for Days 1 and 2 in the little "code" box, like you did before in a previous game?

Sure, but I won't get a chance till later/tomorrow.

In related news, I'm at something like 30% of my normal capacity right now due to an illness that is leaving me really fuzzy-headed and unfocused. Though I've made it to the office this afternoon, which is an improvement :-)

Only if it's easy. Take care of yourself!

[MiX]

Vote: raerae

Because??

Beeeeecause you killed Glooble so you could push my lynch? Why did you not ask about my reason to vote for you? I need to make a complete list about everything Glooble said D2 to see if your reread checks out.

[MiX]

Finished Glooble D2

[MiX]

Why...is there a hotkey...for posting...

Finished Glooble D2

reread, pretty much just talking about me and Awaclus so that's not how we'll catch who killed him.

Unvote because I think I always assume shraeye and raerae are a team...and maybe I shouldn't. Next step'll be rereading people's opinions on Glooble and raerae's posts.

[raerae]

Vote: raerae

Because??

Beeeeecause you killed Glooble so you could push my lynch? Why did you not ask about my reason to vote for you? I need to make a complete list about everything Glooble said D2 to see if your reread checks out.

Because I don't give two shits about why you're voting for me, you literally lied about your reasons yesterday so why would today be any different. I still think you're scum and I know shraeye wouldn't hesitate to push a case on a partner but if something better comes along on not a partner I know he'd jump ship which is exactly what he did.

Also, and most importantly, let's just let UncleEddie answer the question I asked him. Last time I checked you aren't the same person.

[raerae]

Vote: raerae

Because??

Beeeeecause you killed Glooble so you could push my lynch? Why did you not ask about my reason to vote for you? I need to make a complete list about everything Glooble said D2 to see if your reread checks out.

Also, if I'm scum trying to kill you, I most certainly wouldn't kill the person who agrees with me.

[EFHW]

Working on a deadline today and tomorrow. Will put time in this weekend, I promise!

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: raerae

Because??

Beeeeecause you killed Glooble so you could push my lynch? Why did you not ask about my reason to vote for you? I need to make a complete list about everything Glooble said D2 to see if your reread checks out.

Also, if I'm scum trying to kill you, I most certainly wouldn't kill the person who agrees with me.

I mean, you would if it’s Shraeye, who you are concerned can read you fairly well.

But I voted for you because of the Gloobie fixation. I don’t see it as particularly helpful, and it seems like an attempt to distract from other factors. Plus your conclusion about Gloobie dying was that MiX is bad because Gloobie was almost pushing MiX? Or something, killing someone who is on he fence about you as a player is an odd motivation.

[MiX]

Did you see my unvote? Man I love voting for reactions, it works after unvoting and everything! Yes I do believe you would kill Glooble for that, it's fairly easy to get people to get excited about lynching me as seen last game.

By the way, I never lied about my reasons. You're overexaggerating my botched case on you D2 to get people to scumread me. Unless I did lie? Prove it then.

But I voted for you because of the Gloobie fixation. I don’t see it as particularly helpful, and it seems like an attempt to distract from other factors. Plus your conclusion about Gloobie dying was that MiX is bad because Gloobie was almost pushing MiX? Or something, killing someone who is on he fence about you as a player is an odd motivation.

I have to admit, it's a pretty solid case on me. But let it be known that I would probably kill raerae instead of Glooble, just look at the end of D2 and see who was very much pushing me all the way. If someone wanted to frame me for Glooble's death, they would kill raerae and frame me for her death instead...unless raerae's in the scumteam with that idea. This is baseless conjucture but would be fun if true.

[raerae]

Vote: raerae

Because??

Beeeeecause you killed Glooble so you could push my lynch? Why did you not ask about my reason to vote for you? I need to make a complete list about everything Glooble said D2 to see if your reread checks out.

Also, if I'm scum trying to kill you, I most certainly wouldn't kill the person who agrees with me.

I mean, you would if it’s Shraeye, who you are concerned can read you fairly well.

But I voted for you because of the Gloobie fixation. I don’t see it as particularly helpful, and it seems like an attempt to distract from other factors. Plus your conclusion about Gloobie dying was that MiX is bad because Gloobie was almost pushing MiX? Or something, killing someone who is on he fence about you as a player is an odd motivation.

I'm confused about your shraeye statement. Can you rephrase? I'm not trying to be difficult, I promise, I'm just confused.

I know how shraeye thinks so while I can't always tell whether he's town or scum, I know what he'd do, or try to convince his team to do, as scum. He never wants to make the obvious kill, even if somebody had been screaming for shraeye blood they wouldn't be the NK because it's too obvious and he doesn't play with WIFOM. He prefers a kill that doesn't tie directly back to him (or his team) but does protect him/them in the long run. Shraeye doesn't interact with how partners any differently than he interacts with anybody else so rereading him will get you next to nothing. Obviously his team killed glooble, obviously for a reason, since I didn't see any crumbs the obvious is conclusion is that he was suspicious enough to vote one of them and they wanted to shut that down.

[raerae]

I'm very interested in what faust and Ash think of this.

[Uncleeurope]

My statement was saying that you would NK Shraeye on the grounds that he can read you. So whether you thought he was scum or not, or whether he agreed with you on MiX or not.

[MiX]

Deeper reread on Glooble, pretty much unmentioned by anyone, the only relevent thing is EFHW's case on him, I think this means EFHW realized he's not lynchable and NKd him? This is a weak reason, but there's...really not much on Glooble besides his scumread on me. I think this was a frame job. Or simply hitting town, he was pretty towny.

Vote: EFHW because of Space's wagon analysis on E's D1 wagon and I find E townier. And the above. Next: rereading raerae and EFHW.

[raerae]

My statement was saying that you would NK Shraeye on the grounds that he can read you. So whether you thought he was scum or not, or whether he agreed with you on MiX or not.

But if that were my motivation why not kill him N1?

[Uncleeurope]

My statement was saying that you would NK Shraeye on the grounds that he can read you. So whether you thought he was scum or not, or whether he agreed with you on MiX or not.

But if that were my motivation why not kill him N1?

Dunno, but that wasn’t my reason for voting you, it was just a counter to your statement about you not killing Shraeye.

I have other reasons.

That being said...

But I voted for you because of the Gloobie fixation. I don’t see it as particularly helpful, and it seems like an attempt to distract from other factors. Plus your conclusion about Gloobie dying was that MiX is bad because Gloobie was almost pushing MiX? Or something, killing someone who is on he fence about you as a player is an odd motivation.

I have to admit, it's a pretty solid case on me. But let it be known that I would probably kill raerae instead of Glooble, just look at the end of D2 and see who was very much pushing me all the way. If someone wanted to frame me for Glooble's death, they would kill raerae and frame me for her death instead...unless raerae's in the scumteam with that idea. This is baseless conjucture but would be fun if true.

I don’t see it as a solid case on you at all, the only way it could be seen as solid is if it’s true at this point. Are you saying it’s true? This post is weirding me out, but maybe I just don’t understand.

And now for something unrelated:

Vote: Chicken

[MiX]

I have to admit, it's a pretty solid case on me. But let it be known that I would probably kill raerae instead of Glooble, just look at the end of D2 and see who was very much pushing me all the way. If someone wanted to frame me for Glooble's death, they would kill raerae and frame me for her death instead...unless raerae's in the scumteam with that idea. This is baseless conjucture but would be fun if true.

I don’t see it as a solid case on you at all, the only way it could be seen as solid is if it’s true at this point. Are you saying it’s true? This post is weirding me out, but maybe I just don’t understand.

Well I think it makes sense for raerae to scumread who Glooble was scumreading, which is really just me. It's a fair point to be made and I can't deny it.

Why chicken?

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's the code box full of voting states that EFHW asked for. Sorry if it makes the page a little fuller than usual. I was going to post the version that's tagged with forum colours, but that just makes it less legible for those not wanting to go to the effort of copy-paste-previewing it into a post just to read it.

Code: [Select]

VOTING FOR DAY 1

#67
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (17): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, MiX, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#68
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): MiX
Not Voting (16): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#69
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
Not Voting (15): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#72
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
EFHW (1): 2.71828.....
Not Voting (14): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#106
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
EFHW (1): 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): faust
Not Voting (13): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#108
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
2.71828..... (1): faust
faust (1): 2.71828.....
Not Voting (13): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#110
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (1): 2.71828.....
Uncleeurope (1): faust
Not Voting (13): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#112
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (1): 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): faust
Not Voting (13): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#114
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (1): 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): faust
Uncleeurope (1): mcmcsalot
Not Voting (13): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#117
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (1): 2.71828.....
2.71828..... (1): faust
Uncleeurope (1): mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (1): raerae
Not Voting (12): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord

#119
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (1): faust
Uncleeurope (1): mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (1): raerae
Not Voting (11): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord

#120
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (1): faust
Uncleeurope (1): mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (1): raerae
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (10): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#128
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (1): faust
mcmcsalot (1): raerae
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (11): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, mcmcsalot

#133
Robz888 (1): MiX
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (1): faust
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (1): raerae
Not Voting (11): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, mcmcsalot

#141
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (1): faust
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (1): raerae
raerae (1): MiX
Not Voting (11): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, mcmcsalot

#148
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): faust, mcmcsalot
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (1): raerae
raerae (1): MiX
Not Voting (10): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#169
Awaclus (1): Glooble
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): faust, mcmcsalot
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (1): raerae
raerae (1): MiX
Not Voting (9): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#212
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): faust, mcmcsalot
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (1): raerae
raerae (1): MiX
MiX (1): Glooble
Not Voting (9): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#215
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): faust, mcmcsalot
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (2): raerae, Glooble
raerae (1): MiX
Not Voting (9): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#259
faust (3): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
2.71828..... (2): faust, mcmcsalot
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (2): raerae, Glooble
Not Voting (9): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#262
faust (3): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
2.71828..... (2): faust, mcmcsalot
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (2): raerae, Glooble
Not Voting (9): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#265
faust (3): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (2): raerae, Glooble
2.71828..... (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): faust
Not Voting (9): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Robz888, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#268
faust (3): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (2): raerae, Glooble
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
Not Voting (8): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#284
faust (3): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (3): raerae, Glooble, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
Not Voting (7): EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#318
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (3): raerae, Glooble, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
Not Voting (7): EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#322
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Shraeye (3): raerae, Glooble, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Not Voting (6): EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#325
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (3): raerae, Glooble, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): ashersky
Not Voting (6): EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#333
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
Not Voting (6): EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#344
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (5): EFHW, DatSwan, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#353
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): ashersky
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (5): EFHW, DatSwan, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#361
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, Robz888
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (5): EFHW, DatSwan, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#362
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, Robz888
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (5): EFHW, DatSwan, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#377
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (3): ashersky, Robz888, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (4): EFHW, Shraeye, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#384
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (3): ashersky, Robz888, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (3): EFHW, Shraeye, Awaclus

#391
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): mcmcsalot, EFHW
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (3): ashersky, Robz888, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

#402
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

#432
faust (2): 2.71828....., UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
WestCoastDidds (1): MiX
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

#448
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888
Robz888 (1): faust
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
WestCoastDidds (1): MiX
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

#455
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
WestCoastDidds (1): MiX
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

#457
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (1): Uncleeurope
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

#462
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (2): Shraeye, Awaclus

#463
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (3): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (1): Awaclus
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (1): Shraeye

#473
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (1): Shraeye

#482
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Awaclus (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (1): Shraeye

#506
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Awaclus (2): Uncleeurope, ashersky
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
Glooble (1): Shraeye
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#515
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Glooble (1): Shraeye
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (1): Uncleeurope

#517
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): 2.71828.....
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Glooble (2): Shraeye, Uncleeurope
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#537
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Glooble (2): Shraeye, Uncleeurope
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#543
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Glooble (1): Shraeye
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#550
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Glooble (1): Shraeye
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#561
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
MiX (2): SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Glooble (1): Shraeye
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#606
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Glooble (1): Shraeye
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#620
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Awaclus (1): ashersky
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
ashersky (1): Shraeye
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#641
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (4): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
ashersky (1): Shraeye
raerae (1): ashersky
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#643
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (2): raerae, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
ashersky (1): Shraeye
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#644
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
ashersky (2): Shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#653
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., Uncleeurope, WestCoastDidds
ashersky (2): Shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#674
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (3): Glooble, faust, MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
ashersky (2): Shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (1): Uncleeurope
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#678
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
ashersky (2): Shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (2): Uncleeurope, MiX
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#708
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
ashersky (2): Shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (2): Uncleeurope, MiX
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#719
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (2): Shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (3): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#735
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
ashersky (2): Shraeye, raerae
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#737
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
ashersky (1): raerae
EFHW (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Shraeye
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#750
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
ashersky (1): raerae
EFHW (4): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord
Not Voting (1): Shraeye

#751
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Jimmmmm (2): Glooble, faust
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
ashersky (1): raerae
EFHW (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Shraeye
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#759
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (1): faust
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
ashersky (1): raerae
EFHW (6): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Shraeye, Glooble
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#772
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (2): faust, Uncleeurope
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
ashersky (1): raerae
EFHW (5): MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Shraeye, Glooble
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#773
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (3): EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (3): faust, Uncleeurope, raerae
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (5): MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Shraeye, Glooble
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#781
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (3): faust, Uncleeurope, raerae
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (6): MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#791
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (3): faust, Uncleeurope, raerae
Robz888 (2): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (5): MiX, UmbrageOfSnow, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#797
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (3): faust, Uncleeurope, raerae
Robz888 (3): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#805
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
MiX (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (2): faust, raerae
Robz888 (4): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Uncleeurope
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#823
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (2): faust, raerae
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Uncleeurope, SpaceAnemone
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
No Lynch (1): Chickenwarlord

#827
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (2): faust, raerae
Robz888 (6): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, Uncleeurope, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888

#828
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Jimmmmm (3): faust, raerae, Uncleeurope
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888

#834
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Jimmmmm (2): raerae, Uncleeurope
SpaceAnemone (1): faust

#835
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
Chickenwarlord (1): DatSwan
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Robz888 (5): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (2): faust, Uncleeurope

#836
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Robz888 (6): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord, DatSwan
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (2): faust, Uncleeurope

#838
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (2): EFHW, Awaclus
Robz888 (6): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord, DatSwan
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (3): Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

#844
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (1): EFHW
Robz888 (7): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (3): Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

#846
Shraeye (1): Jimmmmm
2.71828..... (1): EFHW
Robz888 (8): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

#848
2.71828..... (1): EFHW
Robz888 (9): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm
raerae (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
EFHW (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX

#867
2.71828..... (1): EFHW
Robz888 (10): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, SpaceAnemone, Chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm, ashersky
raerae (1): mcmcsalot
EFHW (2): Shraeye, Robz888
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (3): faust, Uncleeurope, MiX



VOTING FOR DAY 2

#890
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
Not Voting (14): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#893
SpaceAnemone (1): MiX
Uncleeurope (1): WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (13): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#897
SpaceAnemone (2): MiX, Uncleeurope
Uncleeurope (1): WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (12): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#910
Uncleeurope (1): WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope
raerae (1): MiX
Not Voting (12): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, raerae, Chickenwarlord

#919
Uncleeurope (1): WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope
raerae (1): MiX
MiX (1): raerae
Not Voting (11): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#935
Uncleeurope (1): WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope
raerae (1): MiX
MiX (2): raerae, Shraeye
Not Voting (10): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, faust, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#936
Uncleeurope (1): WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope
raerae (1): MiX
MiX (2): raerae, Shraeye
Awaclus (1): faust
Not Voting (9): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Chickenwarlord

#971
Uncleeurope (1): WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope
MiX (2): raerae, Shraeye
Awaclus (1): faust
Not Voting (10): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, MiX

#972
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope
MiX (2): raerae, Shraeye
Awaclus (2): faust, WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (10): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, MiX

#977
MiX (2): raerae, Shraeye
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
Not Voting (10): UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, MiX

#978
MiX (2): raerae, Shraeye
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Not Voting (9): EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, MiX

#983
MiX (3): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Not Voting (8): EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord, MiX

#984
MiX (3): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (7): EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord

#1001
MiX (3): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus
Awaclus (2): faust, WestCoastDidds
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (7): EFHW, DatSwan, Glooble, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord

#1015
MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (2): faust, WestCoastDidds
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (6): EFHW, DatSwan, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord

#1027
MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): EFHW, DatSwan, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord

#1037
MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
Uncleeurope (1): DatSwan
Not Voting (5): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord

#1052
MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (2): DatSwan, MiX
Not Voting (5): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord

#1060
MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (1): DatSwan
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (5): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord

#1086
MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord, DatSwan

#1091
MiX (3): raerae, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope, Shraeye
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (6): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord, DatSwan

#1098
MiX (3): raerae, Awaclus, Glooble
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope, Shraeye
faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (5): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord, DatSwan

#1126
MiX (2): raerae, Awaclus
Awaclus (5): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope, Shraeye, Glooble
faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (5): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., Chickenwarlord, DatSwan

#1148
MiX (3): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord
Awaclus (5): faust, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope, Shraeye, Glooble
faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (4): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1167
MiX (4): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble
faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (4): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1187
MiX (3): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble
faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, ashersky
DatSwan (1): MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (4): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1195
MiX (4): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (4): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1198
MiX (5): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble
DatSwan (1): MiX
Chickenwarlord (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (4): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1221
MiX (5): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (5): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope
DatSwan (1): MiX
Not Voting (4): EFHW, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1234
MiX (5): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (5): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope
DatSwan (1): MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1261
MiX (5): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1269
MiX (5): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., DatSwan

#1278
MiX (5): raerae, Awaclus, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (1): 2.71828.....
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan

#1279
MiX (4): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, UmbrageOfSnow
Awaclus (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): 2.71828....., Awaclus
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan

#1280
MiX (3): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (3): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan

#1281
MiX (3): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (5): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan

#1282
MiX (3): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, DatSwan

#1291
MiX (3): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (5): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): DatSwan

#1293
MiX (4): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): DatSwan

#1301
MiX (4): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
Not Voting (1): DatSwan

#1303
MiX (4): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye
Awaclus (3): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): DatSwan

#1304
MiX (4): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

#1314
MiX (4): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

#1316
MiX (5): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (3): faust, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

#1331
MiX (5): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (3): faust, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
WestCoastDidds (1): Uncleeurope

#1342
MiX (5): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (3): faust, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (3): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (2): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....
WestCoastDidds (1): Uncleeurope

#1349
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (4): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (3): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (2): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....
WestCoastDidds (1): Uncleeurope

#1354
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (5): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (3): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (2): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....

#1357
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (6): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (2): SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....

#1370
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (6): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): 2.71828.....

#1372
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (5): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (2): 2.71828....., MiX

#1375
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (6): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
Chickenwarlord (1): 2.71828.....

#1381
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (7): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
Chickenwarlord (1): 2.71828.....

#1385
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (8): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, Chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh! Okay, that's my bad for misunderstanding your word choice. "To catch onto something" is to understand it, so I thought you meant I knew about the change in likelihoods, which I was objecting to because I did not. I now think you mean something more along the lines of "Space was caught out by the change", i.e. I did not know.

I meant you caught on faust's mistake. Why did you quote that faust post then? That confuses me now.

PPE 4

You know, I sort of corrected you wrongly earlier with the "caught onto" thing -- it's actually "to catch on to a thing", with "on to" needing a space between. But the "to" part definitely has to be there, so I'm still using this as my excuse for being confused :-) You can say that I caught faust's mistake, or you can say that I caught on to faust's mistake.

Either way, it is sadly not true! I didn't notice faust's error at all, because I didn't realise that it was anything other than a flat chance of each of the three configurations.

The reason I quoted faust there was because I'd also said "Faust says a lot of things that make a lot of town sense", and I thought that the advice about how scum would/should be playing was an example of that. It's an observation which, if correct, is useful to town, but which faust has to make as scum because otherwise people who know him well will question why he's not being a high-utility townsperson. If I'd noticed it was an error, I'd have made sure to comment specifically that. Though in this case I really don't think faust was trying to mislead anyone with that error, because if it wasn't in the main body of the game setup, it wasn't really a very obvious rule-change anyway.

[Chickenwarlord]

Why chicken?

My past two lynch votes have turned up town, I very nearly was the hammer on the innocent awaclus and Eddie has been saying I'm shifty for like 3 days. He's definitely within his rights - I look like hella scum from voting record alone.

[Chickenwarlord]

I also jumped off the Mix wagon at a critical juncture - which if you think MiX is mafia is a pretty damning move.

[raerae]

I also jumped off the Mix wagon at a critical juncture - which if you think MiX is mafia is a pretty damning move.

So how do you feel about MiX?

[raerae]

My statement was saying that you would NK Shraeye on the grounds that he can read you. So whether you thought he was scum or not, or whether he agreed with you on MiX or not.

I don't think shraeye can read me. At least not well. What makes you believe I think that?

[Uncleeurope]

He seemed fairly confident on your townieness last game, I assume he knows your style in either alignment.

Plus if anyone has an advantage in reading you it would be him.

[Uncleeurope]

(Again, though, that’s not why I voted you)

[raerae]

(Again, though, that’s not why I voted you)

But I'm still going to question things that strike me odd regardless of whether they're related to votes on me.

[Uncleeurope]

(Again, though, that’s not why I voted you)

But I'm still going to question things that strike me odd regardless of whether they're related to votes on me.

Yup, that’s fine, just didn’t want ya thinking my motivations were based solely on that point.

[faust]

I'm very interested in what faust and Ash think of this.

Why us two in particular?

I think there is a point to your observations, but I don't think MiX and shraeye look like partners. Specifically, shraeye was pushing a MiX lynch all D2.

[MiX]

Why chicken?

My past two lynch votes have turned up town, I very nearly was the hammer on the innocent awaclus and Eddie has been saying I'm shifty for like 3 days. He's definitely within his rights - I look like hella scum from voting record alone.

Can you tell us why we should believe you're town? It feels like you KNOW you're scummy, but if you're town you should've known that everything you did had a pro-town purpose. Awaclus' not here so I have to do these questions.

[faust]

Eddie, did you reread shraeye?

[faust]

Oh and

Can we get an update to the thread title?

I could do this myself, but maybe that goes beyond what is acceptable for a player in the game to do.

[Uncleeurope]

Eddie, did you reread shraeye?

I've been feeling lazy, I will get to it before I head to bed today.

[Uncleeurope]

Eddie, did you reread shraeye?

I've been feeling lazy, I will get to it before I head to bed today.

Okay, I finished it.

I learned some stuff.

Mainly that wanting no-lynch is confirmed scummy behavior.

Why do you ask?

[faust]

Eddie, did you reread shraeye?

I've been feeling lazy, I will get to it before I head to bed today.

Okay, I finished it.

I learned some stuff.

Mainly that wanting no-lynch is confirmed scummy behavior.

Why do you ask?

I wanted to know how informed your reads are.

[Uncleeurope]

Ahkay, well I am still just as interested in the people I have voted for today thus far (with a slight exception) and more interested in one of those people.

And a new name has plopped onto the list that I haven’t voted for yet.

[faust]

Cool, so I've finished the D2 glooble reread and he mentions suspicion of MiX at #1015, #1126, #1241, and #1302. He's semi-suspicious of e in #1152 but doesn't hit on that again. He pushes UoS a couple times, disagreeing with things UoS said but not assigning any actual scumpoints. #888 was his wagon analysis and he says there's likely scum in UoS, Space, chicken, and DS for their place on wagon, and Didds for her vote explanation.

Based on this, I'm game for a MiX lunch. Glooble died for a reason and MiX was the one he was on the fence of all day (other than Awaclus, obviously).

Vote: MiX

Would you also support an e lynch?

[ashersky]

Can someone explain to me why the new default assumption is that there is no SK?

Even with the new buried info coming to light, “no SK in neighborhood” is not definite for the game. Heck, the whole hood could be town.

We know it’s Maq+SK or Maq+MU.

Separately, I don’t think it matters because truly figuring out NK motives is near impossible. The only thing we should care about is now the Maq cop matters and one of the other two don’t. If one of the other two has a guilty result, they should get us to lynch that player.

[ashersky]

As for raerae asking for faust and I to weigh in...not sure exactly what you expect me to say. I think both of you are scummy, if not scum.

[faust]

Can someone explain to me why the new default assumption is that there is no SK?

Setup is rolled in a way such that only 33% of games that have the Maquis faction also have an SK. So 2 scum teams is the most likely thing. But you're right, it shouldn't matter all that much, the best thing we can do either way is figure out shraeye's partners.

However we kind of ignore the fact in those probabilities that no other scum has flipped so far (and scum would have been likely to flip in a game with 2  full factions). Assuming all kills were random from the potential pool, considering this factor changes probabilities as follows:

2 teams: 50.6%
team + SK: 49.4%

Which is to say... really we don't know anything.

[raerae]

Cool, so I've finished the D2 glooble reread and he mentions suspicion of MiX at #1015, #1126, #1241, and #1302. He's semi-suspicious of e in #1152 but doesn't hit on that again. He pushes UoS a couple times, disagreeing with things UoS said but not assigning any actual scumpoints. #888 was his wagon analysis and he says there's likely scum in UoS, Space, chicken, and DS for their place on wagon, and Didds for her vote explanation.

Based on this, I'm game for a MiX lunch. Glooble died for a reason and MiX was the one he was on the fence of all day (other than Awaclus, obviously).

Vote: MiX

Would you also support an e lynch?

Depends, are you pulling that from glooble or shraeye interactions?

[MiX]

Cool, so I've finished the D2 glooble reread and he mentions suspicion of MiX at #1015, #1126, #1241, and #1302. He's semi-suspicious of e in #1152 but doesn't hit on that again. He pushes UoS a couple times, disagreeing with things UoS said but not assigning any actual scumpoints. #888 was his wagon analysis and he says there's likely scum in UoS, Space, chicken, and DS for their place on wagon, and Didds for her vote explanation.

Based on this, I'm game for a MiX lunch. Glooble died for a reason and MiX was the one he was on the fence of all day (other than Awaclus, obviously).

Vote: MiX

Would you also support an e lynch?

Depends, are you pulling that from glooble or shraeye interactions?

I had the exact same question in my mind. Odd. But you worded it much better than I ever would.

[raerae]

I'm very interested in what faust and Ash think of this.

Why us two in particular?

I think there is a point to your observations, but I don't think MiX and shraeye look like partners. Specifically, shraeye was pushing a MiX lynch all D2.

But that's the whole thing you have to throw out the window when shraeye is involved. He does not interact with his partners in any noticable way.

[MiX]

I'm very interested in what faust and Ash think of this.

Why us two in particular?

I think there is a point to your observations, but I don't think MiX and shraeye look like partners. Specifically, shraeye was pushing a MiX lynch all D2.

But that's the whole thing you have to throw out the window when shraeye is involved. He does not interact with his partners in any noticable way.

How about the other way around? Also, this is impossible, he's only human. Did I say this before?

[raerae]

As for raerae asking for faust and I to weigh in...not sure exactly what you expect me to say. I think both of you are scummy, if not scum.

Ash, I think you always think I'm scummy. Does that mean you're just discounting what I said? NK analysis is absolutely important when shraeye is involved and it's clear his team killed glooble therefore glooble's kill tells us something about shraeye's team. I mean, do you think I'm making that up or just straight wrong?

[raerae]

I'm very interested in what faust and Ash think of this.

Why us two in particular?

I think there is a point to your observations, but I don't think MiX and shraeye look like partners. Specifically, shraeye was pushing a MiX lynch all D2.

But that's the whole thing you have to throw out the window when shraeye is involved. He does not interact with his partners in any noticable way.

How about the other way around? Also, this is impossible, he's only human. Did I say this before?

The other way around? What's that even mean? I've played this game with him and seen it, it mimics his real life, is almost like I live with him or something.

[faust]

I'm very interested in what faust and Ash think of this.

Why us two in particular?

I think there is a point to your observations, but I don't think MiX and shraeye look like partners. Specifically, shraeye was pushing a MiX lynch all D2.

But that's the whole thing you have to throw out the window when shraeye is involved. He does not interact with his partners in any noticable way.

I do not believe this is true. I went back to the one game shraeye and me have been scum together, M31. Here are some of the things he said in the scum QT:

What I often do, is research an actual case on one of my partners, but then delete the two most damning pieces of evidence.

Twistedarcher: Just be careful not to defend any of us without a good reason

shraeye: so Twisted is right, just don't interpret that as "never defend any partner without 200% solid proof."

Two cases where shraeye says he will deliberately treat a partner differently as scum.

[raerae]

Okay, so question for the masses, do you all actually think MiX is town or are you just suspicious enough of me to not want to agree with me?

[raerae]

I'm very interested in what faust and Ash think of this.

Why us two in particular?

I think there is a point to your observations, but I don't think MiX and shraeye look like partners. Specifically, shraeye was pushing a MiX lynch all D2.

But that's the whole thing you have to throw out the window when shraeye is involved. He does not interact with his partners in any noticable way.

I do not believe this is true. I went back to the one game shraeye and me have been scum together, M31. Here are some of the things he said in the scum QT:

What I often do, is research an actual case on one of my partners, but then delete the two most damning pieces of evidence.

Twistedarcher: Just be careful not to defend any of us without a good reason

shraeye: so Twisted is right, just don't interpret that as "never defend any partner without 200% solid proof."

Two cases where shraeye says he will deliberately treat a partner differently as scum.

Responding and building cases is different than interacting with though. Can you look at any of the cases he built this game and see the two pieces of evidence he deleted? Can you see when he's defending somebody for good reason?

[MiX]

How about the other way around? Also, this is impossible, he's only human. Did I say this before?

The other way around? What's that even mean? I've played this game with him and seen it, it mimics his real life, is almost like I live with him or something.

I meant everyone else's interaction with shraeye, those still exist.

[faust]

Responding and building cases is different than interacting with though. Can you look at any of the cases he built this game and see the two pieces of evidence he deleted? Can you see when he's defending somebody for good reason?

It's just examples to show that shraeye will interact differently with his partners. Which is kind of clear, everyone does, noone is a machine perfectly able to emulate what they would do if they had less info. And even if they were, scum still has actual incentive to treat their partners differently because they do not want them to die. My quotes show that scum!shraeye does care about that. The whole idea of "shraeye's interactions with his partners are indistinguishable from his interactions with town" is utter nonsense.

[raerae]

Responding and building cases is different than interacting with though. Can you look at any of the cases he built this game and see the two pieces of evidence he deleted? Can you see when he's defending somebody for good reason?

It's just examples to show that shraeye will interact differently with his partners. Which is kind of clear, everyone does, noone is a machine perfectly able to emulate what they would do if they had less info. And even if they were, scum still has actual incentive to treat their partners differently because they do not want them to die. My quotes show that scum!shraeye does care about that. The whole idea of "shraeye's interactions with his partners are indistinguishable from his interactions with town" is utter nonsense.

I'm saying you all want to reread him so you can see find where he was winking at and nudging his scumbuddies and you will not find that.

[faust]

Responding and building cases is different than interacting with though. Can you look at any of the cases he built this game and see the two pieces of evidence he deleted? Can you see when he's defending somebody for good reason?

It's just examples to show that shraeye will interact differently with his partners. Which is kind of clear, everyone does, noone is a machine perfectly able to emulate what they would do if they had less info. And even if they were, scum still has actual incentive to treat their partners differently because they do not want them to die. My quotes show that scum!shraeye does care about that. The whole idea of "shraeye's interactions with his partners are indistinguishable from his interactions with town" is utter nonsense.

I'm saying you all want to reread him so you can see find where he was winking at and nudging his scumbuddies and you will not find that.

That's not why I reread, and I doubt it is why others did.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 3.3

In Odo’s quarters, Dax and Bashir investigate the latest death.

“I guess the silver lining is he didn’t have to live for long without Major Kira,” says Dax, running a tricorder over the spot where his bucket was vaporized.

Dr. Bashir looks up from checking the scene for any biological residue.

“Well, Vedek Bariel and the Major had broken up some time ago,” he says.

“I was talking about Odo,” says Dax.

“Really?” says Bashir, his tricorder dropping to his side, “Odo? And the Major?”

"He was crazy about her," says Dax. “You never saw it?”

Bashir shakes his head in disbelief.

Vote count:

faust (2): UmbrageOfSnow, DatSwan
2.71828..... (1): faust
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
MiX (1): raerae
Chicken (1): UncleEurope

Not Voting (5): ashersky, chickenwarlord, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., EFHW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th .

[faust]

Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 19th .

March 19 is a Tuesday. Can you clarify this?

[Glooble]

Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 19th .

March 19 is a Tuesday. Can you clarify this?

Don't blame me I copy and pasted from vote count 3.2. Anyway it should read March 20th.

[jotheonah]

Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 19th .

March 19 is a Tuesday. Can you clarify this?

Don't blame me I copy and pasted from vote count 3.2. Anyway it should read March 20th.

Correct.

[raerae]

Responding and building cases is different than interacting with though. Can you look at any of the cases he built this game and see the two pieces of evidence he deleted? Can you see when he's defending somebody for good reason?

It's just examples to show that shraeye will interact differently with his partners. Which is kind of clear, everyone does, noone is a machine perfectly able to emulate what they would do if they had less info. And even if they were, scum still has actual incentive to treat their partners differently because they do not want them to die. My quotes show that scum!shraeye does care about that. The whole idea of "shraeye's interactions with his partners are indistinguishable from his interactions with town" is utter nonsense.

I'm saying you all want to reread him so you can see find where he was winking at and nudging his scumbuddies and you will not find that.

That's not why I reread, and I doubt it is why others did.

Okay, help me out then because I don't understand, what did you hope to learn in your reread?

[faust]

Okay, help me out then because I don't understand, what did you hope to learn in your reread?

Who shraeye's partners are.

[EFHW]

vote: UoS

[SpaceAnemone]

vote: UoS

I'm curious what you think of e, because I feel like he ought to be almost conf!scum from your position.

What am I missing about UoS?

[raerae]

Okay, help me out then because I don't understand, what did you hope to learn in your reread?

Who shraeye's partners are.

And did you?

[raerae]

Okay, help me out then because I don't understand, what did you hope to learn in your reread?

Who shraeye's partners are.

And did you?

No. You know what, that's bull. I asked you if you were looking for how partners (in more hilarious terms) and you said that isn't why anybody would possibly be looking at shraeye but it was. You're trying to discount my take on him and redirect to somebody else.

Vote: faust

[EFHW]

vote: UoS

I'm curious what you think of e, because I feel like he ought to be almost conf!scum from your position.

What am I missing about UoS?

e is next on my list for similar reasons. It has to do with their voting patterns. Why do you think e should almost be conf!scum from my position?

[ashersky]

As for raerae asking for faust and I to weigh in...not sure exactly what you expect me to say. I think both of you are scummy, if not scum.

Ash, I think you always think I'm scummy. Does that mean you're just discounting what I said? NK analysis is absolutely important when shraeye is involved and it's clear his team killed glooble therefore glooble's kill tells us something about shraeye's team. I mean, do you think I'm making that up or just straight wrong?

I think that’s possible, an after effect of that Robz game with banks.

I don’t die out what you say and generally kind of agree when it comes to shraeye’s intended playstyle. I don’t think he is able to do it perfectly (no one can), and I think you give him too much credit (which I don’t blame you for). 

The interaction you’ve ended up having with faust is much more helpful.

[SpaceAnemone]

By the way, I never lied about my reasons. You're overexaggerating my botched case on you D2 to get people to scumread me. Unless I did lie? Prove it then.

Seriously? Here's the part where you said you said raerae had made a "blatant mistake" by claiming that she'd replied to a post because you couldn't find it:

What Robz post were you replying to? I...didn't find it. In fact, it doesn't exist. I am as confused as you are...you're clearly replying to this:

I do see one for raerae, just because she's not doing much, and I remember her doing a LOT more in M121, am I wrong? I don't think I am...but this could very well be null, I don't know...

You even say "I really haven't done much this game" which is a direct quote from this. I don't know what to make of this blatant mistake and I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

Then here's where you said you didn't even look for the post you were talking about:

Ha. I have to admit I didn't look for whatever post you where refering to, I just found a good non-Robz that I remembered (because I wrote it). Well that's awkward.

That's pretty much a lie. Now, I know I said at #950 that being as generous as possible to you, you hadn't outright lied, just been very misleading. However, I think you still need to own the fact that what you said was very manipulative and misleading.

Next time you want to make a case, may I suggest that you present it to the thread, and try to build up an argument that persuades people of your beliefs, instead of just hounding an individual you see as a target? It's perfectly possible to build up an entire case on someone without having to interact with them at all, and you might find it a useful technique to add to your repertoire.

[SpaceAnemone]

vote: UoS

I'm curious what you think of e, because I feel like he ought to be almost conf!scum from your position.

What am I missing about UoS?

e is next on my list for similar reasons. It has to do with their voting patterns. Why do you think e should almost be conf!scum from my position?

See my #1447, or take a look at the D1 wagons for yourself from #473-#643. Basically, there's a large town-on-e wagon where for much of its existence, you're the only non-flipped player. Either scum didn't want to go there because he's scum, or they didn't want to go there because you-LL are already there. (Or if we have two full-sized scum factions, it's very possible that you're both scum, most likely of different flavours).

Actually, since I've got permission to use colours now:

2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds

With WCD only being there for a sub-portion of the wagon, but you and e being in stable placed throughout.

[EFHW]

Yes, I did see that.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oops, sorry to follow up the same post twice, but I have other things I've remembered I want to ask..

e is next on my list for similar reasons. It has to do with their voting patterns. Why do you think e should almost be conf!scum from my position?

So what is it about UoS's voting patterns that have you convinced for the vote?

My characterization of his voting history would be:
D1:
a) Votes for faust early and sticks there for a very long time, including all the way through the early e wagon.
b) Moves to the LL wagon in 4th place, and stays through a couple of swells to 6 votes. For some of that his vote is right next to Shraeye's, which is a slight non-partner indicator.
c) Moves to the Robz wagon in 3rd place, and stays there till after the lynch. Being on the myslynch wagon is a black mark, but it's shared by quite a few unflipped players (e, WCD, UoS, me, Chicken, Swan and Ash).

D2:
a) Plants his vote on faust, and stays as a single-player wagon for a long time.
b) Moves to the MiX wagon in 5th position.
c) Moves back to faust as soon as Awaclus joins, and stays there till the end of the day.

I don't see how that's a very incriminating voting pattern. He's tunneling faust, but faust is an unflipped entity just now, so we can't even say if that's even a mistake.

[WestCoastDidds]

Space is pwning MiX on the misleading and manipulation case. Rae has called it out when it happened and now for him to pretend it wasn’t a misstep is mind boggling to me.

(Space, I hope you’re feeling better. Kicking ass definitely has therapeutic effects.)

[SpaceAnemone]

(Space, I hope you’re feeling better. Kicking ass definitely has therapeutic effects.)

I'm doing okay, though I think today is the first day I didn't even bother trying to go to the office. I really like work, so I hope that's not actually a causal thing! I had to head to the GP surgery again to get the blood tests they booked me in for earlier in the week, and that wiped me out enough that I slept all afternoon. Now it's just after 2am, and I'm feeling much perkier :-P

You'll know my brain is back on some sort of form when I work out where faust got his percentages from in that post where he replied to Ash :-) I feel it's my duty to keep tabs on posted probabilities, because normally I'm all over them. Annoyingly, the thing I wanted to check up on about the baseline probability of at least one scum in a group of 4 took me two or three days to focus on fully enough to be sure I wasn't missing a factor.. normally I can do that sort of thing in my sleep. That's why I was a bit sad faust hadn't just done it in advance so I could check I wasn't going wrong somewhere...

[Chickenwarlord]

NK analysis is absolutely important when shraeye is involved and it's clear his team killed glooble therefore glooble's kill tells us something about shraeye's team. I mean, do you think I'm making that up or just straight wrong?

I think this is where we should focus for now. Glooble seemed to be off the MiX wagon entirely and against the faust votes. This is either some mad misdirection or these are probably not on shraeye's team.
Glooble seemed moderately critical of UoS but not enough that I would think it would paint a target on his back.

[Chickenwarlord]

I think this is where we should focus for now. Glooble seemed to be off the MiX wagon entirely and against the faust votes. This is either some mad misdirection or these are probably not on shraeye's team.

I do not actually think this is enough to exonerate either of them - just thinking that the reason Glooble was killed were probably not either of these.

[Chickenwarlord]

I also jumped off the Mix wagon at a critical juncture - which if you think MiX is mafia is a pretty damning move.

So how do you feel about MiX?

MiX is likely to not be Maquis at the very least. Some of those huge blocks of information that he has presented seem to be very conclusion first, then figure out what evidence supports it, which jives with the hotblooded townie vibe. By playing as aggressively as he has I would not be surprised if MiX is loved, regardless of alignment.

[raerae]

NK analysis is absolutely important when shraeye is involved and it's clear his team killed glooble therefore glooble's kill tells us something about shraeye's team. I mean, do you think I'm making that up or just straight wrong?

I think this is where we should focus for now. Glooble seemed to be off the MiX wagon entirely and against the faust votes. This is either some mad misdirection or these are probably not on shraeye's team.
Glooble seemed moderately critical of UoS but not enough that I would think it would paint a target on his back.

Are you kidding?? Do you think I made up those post numbers?

[faust]

Okay, help me out then because I don't understand, what did you hope to learn in your reread?

Who shraeye's partners are.

And did you?

I think so.

No. You know what, that's bull. I asked you if you were looking for how partners (in more hilarious terms) and you said that isn't why anybody would possibly be looking at shraeye but it was. You're trying to discount my take on him and redirect to somebody else.

Vote: faust

It's not my fault if you express yourself ulclearly. Yes I am trying to discount your take. Your take is bullshit and I have disproven it. Not sure what you mean by redirecting. Where am I redirecting from? MiX? Then your scumread on me hinges on MiX being scum and you should be voting for him. Where am I redirecting to? I haven't even posted a case.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: WCD

[2.71828.....]

Space, I have been known to attract votes from town as town in the past, so while that wagon looks great and it helped me vote Awaclus, I don't want to just lunch everyone on it until we got scum if there is a better lynch to be had

[faust]

Space, I have been known to attract votes from town as town in the past, so while that wagon looks great and it helped me vote Awaclus, I don't want to just lunch everyone on it until we got scum if there is a better lynch to be had

Is there?

[Swowl]

Shraeye Read - Specifically looking at partners for now:

Day 1:

- Given the flips there is really not a lot to go on here. They sat on LL like all day and most people avoided it. Exceptions being Robz and Glooble, who have both flipped town.

- The other notable would be MiX - Personally, still TRing, but at the very least, not likely to be same skum as Shraeye.
Example is VC 1.8: LaLight (4): MiX, Shraeye, Glooble, Robz888

- It is also unlikely that EFHW(LL) is skum with MiX or Shraeye

- Day 1 ended with 7 unknown players on the Robz wagon [E!, WCD, Snow, Space, Chicken, Swan, Ashes]. There were also 5 other players not on Robz that are unknown [RaeRae, LL, Faust, Eddie, MiX]

- Not a huge leap to assume that one of Shraeye's partners lie within [E!, WCD, Snow, Space, Chicken, Swan, Ashes]. Would rather not speculate on more or equal to one player, but I think them just sitting on LL all day would suggest at least one.


Day 2:

- Shraeye starts off doing stuff, then ends on Awaclus at the end of them staying there for VC 2.6:
VC 2.6
MiX (4): raerae, Awaclus, chickenwarlord, ashersky
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, shraeye, Glooble
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
DatSwan (1): MiX
chickenwarlord (1): Uncleeurope

- Then they, move to MiX, and stay there for the remainder of the day:
VC 2.7
MiX (4): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, UncleEurope

VC 2.8 – 12 hours to DL
MiX (4): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye
Awaclus (4): faust, WestCoastDidds, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

VC 2.9 – 10 Hours to DL
MiX (5): raerae, chickenwarlord, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
Awaclus (3): faust, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope


--------- The above vote count of 2.9 is the most important to me ------------

-We have Rae, Chicken Ashes, and Shraeye sitting on MiX the whole time. Then WCD jumps onto MiX here for 2.9 and chicken bails to Awaclus.
- The MiX wagon only has one known player on it, Skum!Shraeye.
-Everyone except for Chicken stays on MiX, and it def wasn't a for sure Awaclus lynch happening, so that would be really bold of any of them to do if MiX were to be skum Shraeye already on the wagon.

------This leads me to believe that based on Shraeye's flip that there is a saturation of skum in [Rae, Ashes, Chicken, WCD, MiX]. As the one to play chicken would of done so as either Shraeye or MiX's partner when they did... I am leaning Chicken for now. -----



Below is the remaining of the Vote Counts for the day. You will see that after Chicken moves, the only LCD they are followed by is MiX.

VC 2.10 – 1 Hour to DL
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
Awaclus (7): faust, Glooble, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow
chickenwarlord (1): 2.71828.....

VC 2.Final
MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
Awaclus (: faust, Glooble, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow


Sorry for the wall.
TLDR; Chicken is a good option. I don't think MiX is skum (but specifically, not with Shraeye). Reasons aside for now, even after the VCA, I am suspicious of Faust.

Vote: Chicken

[Uncleeurope]

Faust, thoughts on Chicken?

Swowl, thoughts on e?

[faust]

Faust, thoughts on Chicken?

I think he is decidedlz unlikely to be shraeye's partner. Other than that, could definitely be scum.

[Uncleeurope]

Faust, thoughts on Chicken?

I think he is decidedlz unlikely to be shraeye's partner. Other than that, could definitely be scum.

Okay, I get the idea, but why decidedly?

Also, thoughts on WCD?

Also also, Vote: e

[faust]

Faust, thoughts on Chicken?

I think he is decidedlz unlikely to be shraeye's partner. Other than that, could definitely be scum.

Okay, I get the idea, but why decidedly?

There is just zero interaction between the two. I think that is unlikely to happen.

Also, thoughts on WCD?

I'm withholding judgment until I see the results of the shraeye reread that she promised. But the longer that does not happen, the scummier she is.

[faust]

Faust, thoughts on Chicken?

I think he is decidedlz unlikely to be shraeye's partner. Other than that, could definitely be scum.

Okay, I get the idea, but why decidedly?

There is just zero interaction between the two. I think that is unlikely to happen if both are scum.

Also, thoughts on WCD?

I'm withholding judgment until I see the results of the shraeye reread that she promised. But the longer that does not happen, the scummier she is.

EBWOP

[MiX]

Apologies, I forgot I didn't clarify this: I looked at all Robz posts to see which one raerae was replying to, but after failing to find any I didn't look in-depth to see which one she was actually replying to, I simply found one that looked like she had replied to it. I don't think I could ever find it with 100% guarantee unless I was inside raerae's mind, in fact both posts (the one I thought she had replied to and the one she actually did) were similar in content so there wasn't much of a difference. Of course, I forgot that Robz is mcmc's brother and how that could lead raerae to say one's name while mentioning the other.

There, that's my defense on that thing.

Swan's case on chicken is confusing...and I agree with faust's idea of there being more interaction if chicken was scumbuddies with shraeye.

I've been incredibly lazy with rereads, sorry about that, but I think the simpliest way to explain Glooble's death is if EFHW was scum, tried to make a case on them, realized no one thought Glooble was scum and thus killed them off. But I haven't reread much, so maybe that'll change.

[Uncleeurope]

Or maybe that scum team found Gloobie townie.

Shraeye even mentioned Gloobie as a town read.

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, thoughts on WCD?

I'm withholding judgment until I see the results of the shraeye reread that she promised. But the longer that does not happen, the scummier she is.

Apologies....I got sidelined by an high allergy count and subsequent sinus infection this week and the medicine makes me foggy. I will carve out time this weekend. I’ve been muddled and uninspired the past few days.

[2.71828.....]

Space, I have been known to attract votes from town as town in the past, so while that wagon looks great and it helped me vote Awaclus, I don't want to just lunch everyone on it until we got scum if there is a better lynch to be had

Is there?

Yes.

Vote: chicken

[WestCoastDidds]

I am just starting the reread, but holy cow....look at that list...

Hey DatSwan!

If I told you there was scum in {mcmcs, Glooble, Umbrage, Awaclus, Jimmmm}, would you think I was right or wrong?

[WestCoastDidds]

My Shra-eye reread:

So, I am super analog and take my notes old school. In this case, purple pen on green paper so this is more summary than quote heavy. Finishing up the re-read my first thought was...wowsers. We got lucky that he got killed because dude wasn't being lynched. Super townie town.

He had 107 posts, total, and only around 25 or so Day 2, so a rather large drop off. Only three people ever voted for him Raerae, Glooble, and Jimmmmm (all on D1).
_________________
D1
He spent a lot of time being annoyed that there was a wagon on e, and was especially annoyed by MiX's reasons for e (158). Then mcmc's reasons for e (294). Then everyone who has voted e (422, 505, 626. 636). Also annoyed with faust wagon.

No lynch talk from 217-293

Actively campaigns fro Ashersky lynch (620, 634, 666, 677, 687)

votes: Glooble (506), Asher (620), LL (737)
_____________
D2
Townreads are Eddie and Glooble, bothered by faust wagon.
Wants WCD (925, 1330), Chicken (925), EFHW (1259),  and Awaclus (998) to defend various points

votes: MiX (935), Awaclus (1091), MiX (1290)
______________

He interacted the least with Raerae, Space, and Chicken
______________

Okay....two thoughts about all of this are:
1. That list of folks he didn't interact with is SUPER interesting because he interacted a lot with lots of different people
2. He actively (and effectively?) campaigned against an e lynch and (to a lesser extent) a faust lynch.

[WestCoastDidds]

I am not quite ready to draw larger conclusions from it yet, but vote: Chicken for now

[faust]

Okay....two thoughts about all of this are:
1. That list of folks he didn't interact with is SUPER interesting because he interacted a lot with lots of different people
2. He actively (and effectively?) campaigned against an e lynch and (to a lesser extent) a faust lynch.

So... who do you think are his partners? Who do you think aren't?

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay....two thoughts about all of this are:
1. That list of folks he didn't interact with is SUPER interesting because he interacted a lot with lots of different people
2. He actively (and effectively?) campaigned against an e lynch and (to a lesser extent) a faust lynch.

So... who do you think are his partners? Who do you think aren't?

I'm a ruminator, so I need to think about it more.  Clarity usually happens in the shower or the gym.

His Ashersky campaign suggests that they aren't teammates.

I don't know much about his scum-play, but the lack of interaction with RR, Space, and Chicken definitely raises my suspicions, and his commitment to the anti-e-lynch campaign puts e on the list, too. 

I feel better about the former conclusions rather than the latter because campaigning to save someone who could be town seems like a good scum-trying-to-appear-town strat, and if e flipped scum it would look super bad for Shraeye having so fiercely defended him.

[Chickenwarlord]

What I am seeing in the reasoning targeting me is all fairly logical for Day 2. Just keep in mind that almost all of this applies to raerae except for leaving the MiX wagon.
When I flip town after yall lynch me, I want you to remember that.
Vote: RaeRae

[raerae]

Okay, help me out then because I don't understand, what did you hope to learn in your reread?

Who shraeye's partners are.

And did you?

I think so.

No. You know what, that's bull. I asked you if you were looking for how partners (in more hilarious terms) and you said that isn't why anybody would possibly be looking at shraeye but it was. You're trying to discount my take on him and redirect to somebody else.

Vote: faust

It's not my fault if you express yourself ulclearly. Yes I am trying to discount your take. Your take is bullshit and I have disproven it. Not sure what you mean by redirecting. Where am I redirecting from? MiX? Then your scumread on me hinges on MiX being scum and you should be voting for him. Where am I redirecting to? I haven't even posted a case.

I think I was clear but if you misinterpreted then I guess I wasn't. You certainly haven't disproven anything though as we don't have a flip to verify either of our theories. My original intent was to vote for one of glooble's scumreads but my secondary thought was to vote for whoever fought my theory the hardest or discounted it the most. That award goes to chicken currently for saying glooble had no feelings on MiX. I still think MiX is the right vote.

Vote: MiX

[WestCoastDidds]

What I am seeing in the reasoning targeting me is all fairly logical for Day 2. Just keep in mind that almost all of this applies to raerae except for leaving the MiX wagon.
When I flip town after yall lynch me, I want you to remember that.
Vote: RaeRae

Good point. She is definitely on my radar now more than before. Chicken, do you want to make a case on her?

[EFHW]

My take on UoS's voting was that 1). Voting faust is a very safe place for scum. He's very unlikely to be lynched, but if he is, then bonus. 2) Other than sitting there, he has taken very safe positions on wagons, joining them once they are established. 3). Of the 6 large wagons he was on 4 or 5 (can't remember which, away from my notes.)

[raerae]

What I am seeing in the reasoning targeting me is all fairly logical for Day 2. Just keep in mind that almost all of this applies to raerae except for leaving the MiX wagon.
When I flip town after yall lynch me, I want you to remember that.
Vote: RaeRae

But if I'm doing everything you're doing and your town then why are you voting for me?

[raerae]

NK analysis is absolutely important when shraeye is involved and it's clear his team killed glooble therefore glooble's kill tells us something about shraeye's team. I mean, do you think I'm making that up or just straight wrong?

I think this is where we should focus for now. Glooble seemed to be off the MiX wagon entirely and against the faust votes. This is either some mad misdirection or these are probably not on shraeye's team.
Glooble seemed moderately critical of UoS but not enough that I would think it would paint a target on his back.

Are you kidding?? Do you think I made up those post numbers?

@chicken, care to respond?

[Chickenwarlord]

What I am seeing in the reasoning targeting me is all fairly logical for Day 2. Just keep in mind that almost all of this applies to raerae except for leaving the MiX wagon.
When I flip town after yall lynch me, I want you to remember that.
Vote: RaeRae

But if I'm doing everything you're doing and your town then why are you voting for me?

I am saying that it is a good argument and that I should probably be lynched for it - but to keep in mind that almost everything in that argument applies to you as well.

@chicken, care to respond?

Since you seem so strongly that I am in the wrong here, I should probably go back and reread Glooble. The crux of what you're implying is that he wasn't off the MiX train on day 2?

[Chickenwarlord]

@chicken, care to respond?

Alright, after doing a reread of JUST Glooble posts and not sifting through literally everything while at work - it is very clear I was wrong. Glooble was definitely still on the MiX wagon. I guess that does warrant some pause and time for reflection on my part.
Unvote

[faust]

Request prod on UoS

[raerae]

One other point on MiX is his acceptance of the case on him. He's fought every other case tooth and nail until this one. It's out of character for him.

[Uncleeurope]

That is probably because it isn’t a case. That is, if we are referring to him “lying” about him searching for a quote.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to have been doing a reread, found a post that didn’t match up and then try to assign it to some other post. Him saying he looked for an answer is true, he just didn’t do a full reread of that section. That’s how I see it anyway.

I honestly don’t see the significance of it.

Or are you referring to a different case?

[raerae]

That is probably because it isn’t a case. That is, if we are referring to him “lying” about him searching for a quote.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to have been doing a reread, found a post that didn’t match up and then try to assign it to some other post. Him saying he looked for an answer is true, he just didn’t do a full reread of that section. That’s how I see it anyway.

I honestly don’t see the significance of it.

Or are you referring to a different case?

My whole him and glooble thing. He did blow his stack about lying, he hasn't about the connection to glooble.

[MiX]

That is probably because it isn’t a case. That is, if we are referring to him “lying” about him searching for a quote.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to have been doing a reread, found a post that didn’t match up and then try to assign it to some other post. Him saying he looked for an answer is true, he just didn’t do a full reread of that section. That’s how I see it anyway.

I honestly don’t see the significance of it.

Or are you referring to a different case?

My whole him and glooble thing. He did blow his stack about lying, he hasn't about the connection to glooble.

I told Uncle it was a good case, it's correct, Glooble was, indeed, scumreading me. There's one thing we're missing but it only matters for my defence. Not sure if I should mention it, lemme reread your D3 to see if you talk about it.

[MiX]

Okay, so you never mention it. Read #1545 and the faust quote in it if you want to get an ides of what I'm thinking. I think this leads me to

Vote: raerae, although I do apologize for not doing a full reread on her yet, I did do one on EFHW and I see a bunch of towny traits, so I don't really want to go there.

[raerae]

Okay, so you never mention it. Read #1545 and the faust quote in it if you want to get an ides of what I'm thinking. I think this leads me to

Vote: raerae, although I do apologize for not doing a full reread on her yet, I did do one on EFHW and I see a bunch of towny traits, so I don't really want to go there.

Faust says you don't look like partners and shraeye pushed your lunch? I'm not sure what bearing that has here. It's exactly what I said (shraeye not noticeably tying himself to his partners) and what faust said (he'll push a partners lunch).

[jotheonah]

Request prod on UoS

Prod sent. Vote count this evening.

[MiX]

Okay, so you never mention it. Read #1545 and the faust quote in it if you want to get an ides of what I'm thinking. I think this leads me to

Vote: raerae, although I do apologize for not doing a full reread on her yet, I did do one on EFHW and I see a bunch of towny traits, so I don't really want to go there.

Faust says you don't look like partners and shraeye pushed your lunch? I'm not sure what bearing that has here. It's exactly what I said (shraeye not noticeably tying himself to his partners) and what faust said (he'll push a partners lunch).

Okay, I'll elaborate. The crux on your case against me is Glooble scumreading me and, thus, I wanted to NK them, correct? Well, let's look at something no one seemed to care about: why did shraeye die? There's barely any way the other scumteam knew shraeye was scum (they would have to had copped him N1), so let's assume they did a shot in the dark. Since they don't even know if there's multiball, the odds were highly in favor for shraeye flipping town. So, surely, that scumteam planned their N2 NK as if shraeye flipped town (since if he somehow flipped scum, it would be even better, as it would give them less pressure for next day while town hunts for shraeye's partners D3), which means, for all intents and purposes, shraeye was town for non-Maquis scumteam. So the question becomes: why kill him? And the most obvious answer is simple: he was towny. However, if you believe your case on me, surely you can arrive at another conclusion: that I killed shraeye because he was scumreading me; you said this about Glooble, after all. So now look at both Glooble and shraeye's flips together: both kills suggest I killed them. However, it is impossible I NKd both. Thus, we arrive at a very important conclusion: at least one of the scumteams killed Glooble/shraeye to push for my mislynch (and from my perspective both).

Now, this conclusion's important for my defense, but it also says something else: if you believe I killed Glooble because he was scumreading me, you must absolutely believe I killed shraeye because he was scumreading me. But you don't, you haven't made this argument at all. What this leads me to believe...is that you're the one who killed Glooble. Since you were prepared for Glooble's flip (since he's your NK), you already had the narrative for "MiX is scum because Glooble was onto him"...but the shraeye flip threw you off. Since you KNEW shraeye was Maquis, it never entered your mind that the other scumteam does not, and thus his flip's the same as a town flip for NK analysis. This, of course, happened because you're Maquis (and thus knew what shraeye was and knew Glooble would flip beforehand). Therefore, you're scum.

Questions? Clarifications? This smells like a perfect case, but I doubt it. I'll need to reread raerae in full detail later, but I think this is much more than what I have on anyone else.

[SpaceAnemone]

@MiX, you're aware that a lot of people have been scumreading you, and yet now you say that people are trying to frame you for NKs. Do you really honestly believe that?

Why would a scumteam need to waste their NK, which they can use to kill people who're scumreading them, or to kill players they know are strong late in the game, in order to frame you? You have no track record here, your cases so far have been utterly unconvincing, and you've been caught lying to the thread and then trying to pretend it didn't actually happen.

Why frame you, instead of framing vets like faust and Ash? And why not just let the people who scumread you life so that they'll push for your alleged mislynch on scum's behalf?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count up to and including #1610:

faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): faust, Uncleeurope
UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW
Chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): raerae
raerae (1): MiX
Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, ashersky, Chickenwarlord

[SpaceAnemone]

I got sidelined by an high allergy count and subsequent sinus infection this week and the medicine makes me foggy.

Aw, sympathies from the land of fuzzy braining!

[MiX]

@MiX, you're aware that a lot of people have been scumreading you, and yet now you say that people are trying to frame you for NKs. Do you really honestly believe that?

Why would a scumteam need to waste their NK, which they can use to kill people who're scumreading them, or to kill players they know are strong late in the game, in order to frame you? You have no track record here, your cases so far have been utterly unconvincing, and you've been caught lying to the thread and then trying to pretend it didn't actually happen.

Why frame you, instead of framing vets like faust and Ash? And why not just let the people who scumread you life so that they'll push for your alleged mislynch on scum's behalf?

Well, you do have to acknowledge both people that flipped scumread me. And at least raerae's scumreading me based on one of those flips. I might be overplaying NK analysis but you have to admit it's easy to make a case on me based on it. My case on raerae is based on how she only looked at one flip to scumread me when she should've used both, which I believe comes from a Maquis point of view.

Your entire argument stands on your thinking that I killed one of them, which I know to be false. I KNOW the scumteams wasted their NKs killing people that were scumreading me. I KNOW the scumteams didn't frame anyone else, because who else is implicated by the flips? I guess Glooble was scumreading UoS although I didn't find anything significant given that I don't remember that part, but who else then?

If they were scared of faust or Ash enough to frame them, they could NK them instead. However, I'm an easy lynch, given I was a big wagon D2, so scum would rather create more suspicion around me. And you can't argue that the scumteams didn't want to frame faust nor ash, as they did not. We know the flips. And those don't implicate faust or ash.

Spinning my wheels here, TL;DR we know who flipped and who's being scumread because of the flips, so that's all we can deduce from scum's intentions.


This is confusing. Not sure how else to explain myself, whoever. Who else do you think the flips implicate?

[raerae]

Nope. Shraeye's team killed glooble for a reason, he didn't crumb, he wasn't obvtown, it was either a complete shot in the dark (which I know shraeye would never agree to), or it was to protect the team. I would just as happily have voted for anybody else had glooble pointed to them as much as he pointed to you. I'm not looking for who performed the night kills and then making up why they did it. I'm using what we know (shraeye's team killed glooble), what I know (how shraeye thinks), and figuring out what those facts point to (you are on shraeye's team). Shraeye's flip gives us extra information we don't normally have (knowing who had a part in the kill) and we have to use that knowledge.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

[SpaceAnemone]

Can someone explain to me why the new default assumption is that there is no SK?

Setup is rolled in a way such that only 33% of games that have the Maquis faction also have an SK. So 2 scum teams is the most likely thing. But you're right, it shouldn't matter all that much, the best thing we can do either way is figure out shraeye's partners.

However we kind of ignore the fact in those probabilities that no other scum has flipped so far (and scum would have been likely to flip in a game with 2  full factions). Assuming all kills were random from the potential pool, considering this factor changes probabilities as follows:

2 teams: 50.6%
team + SK: 49.4%

Which is to say... really we don't know anything.

I've tried to replicate this now! I got close enough that I suspect my method is the same as yours, but maybe we're just evaluating one part a little differently... can you let me know what you disagree with in my description below, pretty please? Thank you!

I'm using Seq as the observed sequence of kills, TT for Two full Teams, and SK for Maquis+SK.
P(TT|Seq) = P(Seq|TT)P(TT)/P(Seq) -- this is the probability we're after.
P(Seq) = P(Seq|TT)P(TT) + P(Seq|SK)P(SK)
P(TT) = 2/3
P(SK) = 1/3

Evaluating the conditional probabilities of Seq are presumably where differences will occur, so here's my expansion for P(Seq|SK):
D1: (14/18) -- 14 towns in 18 players.
N1: (13/14)*(13/16)-13/(14*16) -- 13 town, 14 non-Maquis players, 16 non-SK players. They have a 13/(14*16) chance of hitting the same town, which didn't happen, so that gets subtracted.
D2: (11/15) -- 11 towns in 15 players.
N2: (10/11)*(3/13) -- SK shot one of the three Maquis in 13 non-SK players; Maquis shot one of 10 towns in 11 non-Maquis players.

Doing a similar thing for P(Seq|TT), then evaluating P(TT|Seq), I get a 51.7% chance of there being two teams in the game if we assume random kills.

Anyway, I do agree that we don't know much! I'm not even sure I have any intuition for how factoring in non-random kills would sway the numbers.

[Chickenwarlord]

Vote: MiX

I also think that the EHFW train has some merit at this point. Really hard to tell where to place a vote when everything looks shifty.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 3.4
"Children of the Prophets, be not afraid in these dark times!" a robed preacher says from atop a soapbox on the Promenade, a small crowd of Bajorans around him. "The Prophets have not abandoned you. They have sent you a new Emissary! An Emissary who knows and loves your people! A symbol of peace and change!"

The robed figure pulls away his hood.

"Dukat, you are not the Emissary!" Kai Winn says. "Please stop doing that!"


Vote count:

faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (2): faust, UncleEurope
UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, chickenwarlord
raerae (1): MiX

Not Voting (2): ashersky, SpaceAnemone

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th .

[ashersky]

Hi.

So...I have crotchety old veteran disease right now and am not posting a lot to ensure I don’t say anything untoward.

I will say, NK analysis is great and all, but any one NK could have been affected by the bus drive, whether by town or scum. I personally think folks are not taking that into consideration, especially when using the NK(s) to determine possibilities, to “know” for sure what a scum team was trying to do/who they were “trying to frame”, etc.

I will also mention the amount of self-confidence in some players’ posts/arguments/defenses is misguided and off putting, unless they are scum. Which, okay, but it just makes me want to lynch you.

So I can’t separate who I think is scummy for real and who I think should be lynched for style. 

[SpaceAnemone]

Well, you do have to acknowledge both people that flipped scumread me.

Ten people in this game have voted for you. The chance of any given player who flips having scumread you at some point is really high. I think we should at least consider the chance that it's just a coincidence that the people who scum killed were some of the 10 who'd scumread you.

Here's a list of all the alive players, and all the other players who've vote for them at least once so far in the game, in case it's interesting for everyone else:

DatSwan: 2 (MiX, 2.71828.....)
WestCoastDidds: 2 (MiX, Uncleeurope)
UmbrageOfSnow: 3 (EFHW, ashersky, Uncleeurope)
SpaceAnemone: 3 (MiX, faust, Uncleeurope)
ashersky: 3 (Shraeye, Awaclus, raerae)
raerae: 6 (mcmcsalot, MiX, faust, ashersky, Uncleeurope, raerae)
2.71828.....: 7 (EFHW, mcmcsalot, WestCoastDidds, faust, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope)
Uncleeurope: 7 (DatSwan, mcmcsalot, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, 2.71828.....)
Chickenwarlord: 7 (DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, MiX, ashersky, 2.71828....., Robz888, Uncleeurope)
EFHW: 8 (UmbrageOfSnow, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, MiX, 2.71828....., Robz888, Uncleeurope)
faust: 8 (UmbrageOfSnow, DatSwan, MiX, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae)
MiX: 10 (UmbrageOfSnow, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, Shraeye, ashersky, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord)

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, I have been known to attract votes from town as town in the past, so while that wagon looks great and it helped me vote Awaclus, I don't want to just lunch everyone on it until we got scum if there is a better lynch to be had

Yes, I think I've been one of those towns on multiple occasions. I am inclined to scumread you quite often, and in this instance I think I've resisted pretty well so far, but this doesn't feel so convincing.

My worry is not that you attracted town votes, but that you didn't attract scum votes. If you're town, you're someone who scum would want to wagon if there's a town swing in that direction. However, there aren't many places left for the inevitable scum votes to be hiding on that wagon now three of them have flipped town. That means that either EFHW in particular is likely to be scum if you're town, but equally it's possible that you're the scum there, or quite possibly both.

Vote: e

[Swowl]

Faust/Eddie:
Why do you think it is more likely that E! Is skum vs Chicken?

[Uncleeurope]

Faust/Eddie:
Why do you think it is more likely that E! Is skum vs Chicken?

What do you think of e? Because you seem to be a bit undecided on the subject.

[Uncleeurope]

Hey, Space, who do you think the baddies are? Whether they are Shraeye's buddies or no?

[Uncleeurope]

Guaranteed that come deadline there will be a mad scramble with people shouting about not being prepared.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Not dead, sick to the point of uselessness. I'll post substance tomorrow afternoon.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Meaning ~12 hours from now.

[faust]

Hi.

So...I have crotchety old veteran disease right now and am not posting a lot to ensure I don’t say anything untoward.

I will say, NK analysis is great and all, but any one NK could have been affected by the bus drive, whether by town or scum. I personally think folks are not taking that into consideration, especially when using the NK(s) to determine possibilities, to “know” for sure what a scum team was trying to do/who they were “trying to frame”, etc.

I will also mention the amount of self-confidence in some players’ posts/arguments/defenses is misguided and off putting, unless they are scum. Which, okay, but it just makes me want to lynch you.

So I can’t separate who I think is scummy for real and who I think should be lynched for style.

I feel you man. But i don't think we need to worry about Bus Driving. It's a 1-shot power and I don't think it would have been used unless there's a pretty strong reason to do so... and I cannot really see that.

[faust]

Faust/Eddie:
Why do you think it is more likely that E! Is skum vs Chicken?

- e's first proper read is this:

shraeye seems like town.

Conindicence? Maybe. but it helped plant the idea of shraeye's townieness in people's minds.

- the wagon on him, as has been talked about:
2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, LaLight, [color0green]Robz888, Awaclus[/color], WestCoastDidds
3 conf!town as well as 2 people that I happen to think are unlikely to be shraeye's partners. Coincidence? Again, maybe.

- shraeye.

Here's my thoughts on e:
I feel like they were getting suspicion early on for being chipper and jokey.  It seems like they were getting slight impressions, magnifying them 1000% either A) because it's funny or B) because that makes people go "What?!" and get this big game rolling.  I put big townpoints on them for that.  My recollection is that once people started saying e was suspicious, then 2.71 started making more muted opinions.  I don't like that; reacting when others perceive you as scummy isn't in general good.  Like, if large cases were happening, and 2.71's defending them....coool.  But if people are like "feels weird" and then 2.71 changes the vibes they're putting out....don't love that.  So the townpoints will probably carry 2.71 off my list tonight.  But 2.71 is not my biggest townread no more.

This feels like the thing describe in the scum QT post from earlier where shraeye would post a weak case on a partner.

- e's original Robz vote:

And actually, speaking of moving off Robz,

Vote: Robz

1) posting about his meta off not being useful D1 and
2) his lazy vote on me that solidified my wagon as an actually viable lynch

Both things I can see scum!Robz doing. I know I said Robz was town for point 1 earlier, but I changed my mind

(emphasis mine)
That kind of awareness of being inconsistent is a scumtell.

- this is for later reference:

I am alive D2!

shows that e is aware of the fact that he's a frequent nightkill. In fact I think we had some statistics done at some point that showed his NK ratio being about as high as mine.

- first time Space mentions his D1 wagon.

Really like this wagon grab by Space, and especially since I know I am town it does add extra suspicion to WCD, Awaclus, and LaLightEFHW

e immediately tries to spin it so that suspicion falls on the people on the wagon, not himself. And 1 post later, despite just having supposedly seen evidence for his scumminess, he excludes Awaclus from suspicion for no reason.

- I think this is fake:

And if you want to use that as a scum slip be my guest. I was probably more presumptive than I needed to be, but this is multi-ball, right?

Now is probably a good time for you to read the setup.

But I have made it this far....

I think e tries to put on an uninvolved persona in order to deflect the nk away from himself.

- finally,

Vote: Awaclus

PPE: hammer?

hammers Awaclus without giving any time to claim. I think in a deliberate effort to make himself more scummy and not be nightkilled.

[MiX]

Well, you do have to acknowledge both people that flipped scumread me.

Ten people in this game have voted for you. The chance of any given player who flips having scumread you at some point is really high. I think we should at least consider the chance that it's just a coincidence that the people who scum killed were some of the 10 who'd scumread you.

Indeed, that's a possibility. I wouldn't know, can't really tell the difference based on flips. But it's clear raerae's scumreading me for the Glooble flip. My defense is that scumreading me for one flip automatically implies scumreading me for the other flip, which doesn't make sense, considering I couldn't have killed both.

Nope. Shraeye's team killed glooble for a reason, he didn't crumb, he wasn't obvtown, it was either a complete shot in the dark (which I know shraeye would never agree to), or it was to protect the team. I would just as happily have voted for anybody else had glooble pointed to them as much as he pointed to you. I'm not looking for who performed the night kills and then making up why they did it. I'm using what we know (shraeye's team killed glooble), what I know (how shraeye thinks), and figuring out what those facts point to (you are on shraeye's team). Shraeye's flip gives us extra information we don't normally have (knowing who had a part in the kill) and we have to use that knowledge.

Indeed, Glooble's kill points to me. What about shraeye's kill? Did you even think about who wanted him dead? By your line of thinking, I would've also killed shraeye for self-defense. Yet you never said that. Why? Because it doesn't fit the narrative you planned N2. You're relying so much on knowing how shraeye operates as scum that you never even considered the other scumteam's kill. Just because you how know shraeye would plan NKs doesn't mean no one else would.

Arguing with you is pointless, because from our perspectives the other's scum. Who wants clarifications on my raerae case? Space? I didn't see you argue against the case, just against my defense, is that correct? If so, what do you think about it?

[2.71828.....]

fausts post has a bunch of cool stuff, but how on earth was that hammer scummy?

[2.71828.....]

Also, I never intentionally try to be townie to avoid the NK.

[2.71828.....]

Also, I never intentionally try to be townie to avoid the NK.

scummy I mean

[WestCoastDidds]

Faust’s e post is solid and I appreciate the work.

faust, what about shraeye’s active bashing of the e wagon on D1. If e dies get lynched, doesn’t it look super bad for shraeye? Or I’m overthinking and if that had seemed more likely he’d have changed tactics and provided himself more cover?

[SpaceAnemone]

Who wants clarifications on my raerae case? Space?

I think your case on raerae is that she asserts that the team who killed Glooble must have done so for a reason, and yet she doesn't seem all that bothered by the fact that the team/SK who killed Shraeye also must have done so for a reason, right?

Her reason for the initial assertion is that the team that killed Glooble contained her husband, whom she says she knows pretty well, having been married to him for a while.

Therefor, I'll probably feel much more invested in your case if you can prove that she has an additional husband who's a member of the alignment that killed Shraeye, and that raerae is also absolutely convinced that this extra husband's faction would only have killed Shraeye for his scumreads.

[faust]

Faust’s e post is solid and I appreciate the work.

faust, what about shraeye’s active bashing of the e wagon on D1. If e dies get lynched, doesn’t it look super bad for shraeye? Or I’m overthinking and if that had seemed more likely he’d have changed tactics and provided himself more cover?

I mean, yes? I am not sure what your point is. It looks scummy because scum does not want their partner lynched D1.

[faust]

fausts post has a bunch of cool stuff, but how on earth was that hammer scummy?

How on earth was that hammer not scummy?

[faust]

Also, I never intentionally try to be townie to avoid the NK.

scummy I mean

how many times have you been scum that had to worry about another scum's nightkill?

[WestCoastDidds]

Faust’s e post is solid and I appreciate the work.

faust, what about shraeye’s active bashing of the e wagon on D1. If e dies get lynched, doesn’t it look super bad for shraeye? Or I’m overthinking and if that had seemed more likely he’d have changed tactics and provided himself more cover?

I mean, yes? I am not sure what your point is. It looks scummy because scum does not want their partner lynched D1.

I’m not sure what my point is, either. I’m just trying to think through the noticeable level of shraeye defense of e D1. It seems dumb to do for a teammate because it’s obvious.

[faust]

Faust’s e post is solid and I appreciate the work.

faust, what about shraeye’s active bashing of the e wagon on D1. If e dies get lynched, doesn’t it look super bad for shraeye? Or I’m overthinking and if that had seemed more likely he’d have changed tactics and provided himself more cover?

I mean, yes? I am not sure what your point is. It looks scummy because scum does not want their partner lynched D1.

I’m not sure what my point is, either. I’m just trying to think through the noticeable level of shraeye defense of e D1. It seems dumb to do for a teammate because it’s obvious.

And since you make that argument, it's no longer dumb.

[2.71828.....]

Also, I never intentionally try to be townie to avoid the NK.

scummy I mean

how many times have you been scum that had to worry about another scum's nightkill?

I have only actually ever been scum like 3 times in my history of playing here, and one of those times I was a SK and lynched D2 I believe

[MiX]

Who wants clarifications on my raerae case? Space?

I think your case on raerae is that she asserts that the team who killed Glooble must have done so for a reason, and yet she doesn't seem all that bothered by the fact that the team/SK who killed Shraeye also must have done so for a reason, right?

You are correct.

Her reason for the initial assertion is that the team that killed Glooble contained her husband, whom she says she knows pretty well, having been married to him for a while.

Therefor, I'll probably feel much more invested in your case if you can prove that she has an additional husband who's a member of the alignment that killed Shraeye, and that raerae is also absolutely convinced that this extra husband's faction would only have killed Shraeye for his scumreads.

Hmm...I can't prove that...but I think it's ridiculous to put so much weight on the Glooble flip just because shraeye was in it. Even if you know that person very very well (which raerae obviously does) you don't know what the dynamic inside the scumteam is, it depends too much on everyone in it. Even knowing what shraeye would say in it does not determine what the scumteam's intentions are: maybe others made compelling arguments that shraeye accepted, perhaps being multiball changes things, I wouldn't know. But what I do know is that, if shraeye hadn't flipped, the argument for "MiX killed Glooble because Glooble scumread MiX" is perfectly valid anyway. Raerae's assumption that shraeye would only kill people that scumread his team is simply wrong and I'm a living example of it, as I'm town and Glooble was scumreading me. Now, sure, raerae wouldn't know this as town, but I believe she would at least accept that she could be wrong...and look at the other flip. Maybe just once, maybe just "you're either Maquis or other-scumteam". But she didn't...because in her mind there was no way shraeye was ever looked upon as being town, because she knew from the start he was scum. I guess you can say that's her good old town self but I wouldn't buy it...eeeh, I should be rereading her...

Now that I think about it, a lot of my case on raerae hinges on knowing I'm town...so it's understandable that you don't accept it. Open for questions as always.

Vote: e

[2.71828.....]

Ugh. Wagons on me. I always feel awkward defending myself, much prefer to go on the offensive and find another wagon to focus on. Like chicken, for example.

[2.71828.....]

One thing, you can call me scum (and be incorrect) just don't call me scum on the same team as shraeye.

[MiX]

One thing, you can call me scum (and be incorrect) just don't call me scum on the same team as shraeye.

Why are you not Maquis? I believe there's more pointing you towards there than non-Maquis...do you disagree?

[Swowl]

Faust/Eddie:
Why do you think it is more likely that E! Is skum vs Chicken?

What do you think of e? Because you seem to be a bit undecided on the subject.

E! is on my top 3 list. And... while they have just PPE'd while I am posting this that "they can't be on the same team as Shraeye".. I disagree with that. I think that if E! were to flip skum we would have 2 of that faction. Whereas I do think chicken is skum... and I believe that in the scenario where there are 2 skum teams, it is more likely to gain a flip of the second skum team from Chicken (when weighed against the likelihood of E!'s flip).

[Swowl]

One thing, you can call me scum (and be incorrect) just don't call me scum on the same team as shraeye.

Why are you not Maquis? I believe there's more pointing you towards there than non-Maquis...do you disagree?

Agree with MiX on this.

[Swowl]

Ugh. Wagons on me. I always feel awkward defending myself, much prefer to go on the offensive and find another wagon to focus on. Like chicken, for example.

while I agree with you about Chicken... seems a little convenient. Why do you think Chicken is skum?

[EFHW]

I've been rereading all afternoon and now I'm tired with not much to show for it, except the same e theory that faust has put forward. Didds' questioning of it is apt, as well. It's WIFOM, since Shraeye knew he could be found out and then his defense of e would be noticed.

Option 1: He could be defending his partner, because it's day 1 and scum losing a team member day 1 is super bad. He'd have to be counting on this very WIFOM to protect him/e when one of them gets killed. Would he start this so early?

Option 2: If he's not defending a partner, then he doesn't know e's alignment. If e flipped being on the other scum team, Shraeye would look like a partner (see option 1). If he comes to believe e is scum or SK, he can always "change his mind" later, so he isn't committing himself to a position. Opposing the e wagon makes him seem towny, and puts him in conflict with other players. Maybe he has a teammate on that wagon? Oh, but that wagon is entirely town with the exception of Didds (I'm claiming town for LL).

Option 2 makes e less likely to be scum than the average unknown player because Maquis is not a possibility.

My guess is that he saw a weak wagon as an opportunity to look towny by opposing it. I'll look at faust's arguments in my next post.

[Uncleeurope]

Faust’s e post is solid and I appreciate the work.

faust, what about shraeye’s active bashing of the e wagon on D1. If e dies get lynched, doesn’t it look super bad for shraeye? Or I’m overthinking and if that had seemed more likely he’d have changed tactics and provided himself more cover?

Weren’t you on board for an e lynch earlier on in the game? Has that changed?

[WestCoastDidds]

Faust’s e post is solid and I appreciate the work.

faust, what about shraeye’s active bashing of the e wagon on D1. If e dies get lynched, doesn’t it look super bad for shraeye? Or I’m overthinking and if that had seemed more likely he’d have changed tactics and provided himself more cover?

Weren’t you on board for an e lynch earlier on in the game? Has that changed?

I don’t think that has changed. I found him townhier for a while there, and now less so. What I’m doing with faust is trying to think through a Shraeye!e team. Which is different than being willing to lynch him, I think. I find the space analysis of all the town on the e wagon with no scum a really good arg. If he’s town, there’d be more scum on board, yeah?

[faust]

One thing, you can call me scum (and be incorrect) just don't call me scum on the same team as shraeye.

Classic "You're finding me scummy for the wrong reasons!"

[faust]

Ugh. Wagons on me. I always feel awkward defending myself, much prefer to go on the offensive and find another wagon to focus on. Like chicken, for example.

Go on then, convince me.

[Uncleeurope]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

Swowl hinted at it a bit above but I am iffy on the subject, because if the other group is the so then it is a lot harder to nail them down.

[EFHW]

I do not like faust's case. @faust, is e your remaining neighbor?

[EFHW]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

Swowl hinted at it a bit above but I am iffy on the subject, because if the other group is the so then it is a lot harder to nail them down.

Again, people assuming we have two teams.

[Uncleeurope]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

Swowl hinted at it a bit above but I am iffy on the subject, because if the other group is the so then it is a lot harder to nail them down.

Again, people assuming we have two teams.

What term would you prefer...?

Who would you pick as a potential Shraeye partner?

[EFHW]

Shraeye's team probably killed Glooble because Shraeye had a scumread on Glooble. Post #621 or so.  He mentions it again later as well.

[EFHW]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

Swowl hinted at it a bit above but I am iffy on the subject, because if the other group is the so then it is a lot harder to nail them down.

Again, people assuming we have two teams.

What term would you prefer...?

Who would you pick as a potential Shraeye partner?

I don't know what you mean. Other than "group"?

Don't have a clue, other than WIFOM e.

[EFHW]

Here is the post where Shraeye scumreads Glooble. I can't find the second one right now. Maybe it was earlier.

Right; lets talk reads.  ...
Now to the bottom end of the list:
Glooble:
There's Glooble/ash Ferengi confusion that made me suspicious
Still feels like he's saying an awful lot and pushing an awful little.  That disparity is scummier than either thing by itself.  MiX is saying/pushing a lot.  Robz is saying/pushing nothing.  Cool, consistency.
He was vocally saying that gut-based reads aren't good
THIS piece, always interests me; it felt like suspicion was up and on him, but I vote, Uncle votes, and then crickets...that always raises my eyebrows off my face.  On reread, I was again thinking that I knee-jerked myself into a scumread, but it just magnifies my suspicions so much when people get cold feet and don't vote for someone they suspect.  So, Glooble's staying in my would-lynch list.

[EFHW]

I'd say ashersky is not likely to be Shraeye's partner, given Shraeye's "ashes to ashes" campaign.

[Uncleeurope]

Well technically he townread him here:

Some players have done towny things. No players have set themselves apart as “good.” 

So I’m struggling to separate the wheat.

Yeah, I agree with this big big.  I have a handful of scumreads, a double-handful of people I'm suspicious of. Another handful of people I'm null on, which makes me suspicious.  My scale is severely tipped towards scum; glooble and Uncle are my two singular townreads.  I've got DatSwan sorted into town category too, but that's mostly my gut-read from day1 carrying over.

[EFHW]

This is Shraeye's first defense of e. The wagon has only two people on it, mcmc and Robz. Interesting that Shraeye defends Robz in this same post while finding mcmc scummy. I guess he was really more interested in painting LL/me as scummy than in defending Robz. My main point is that two votes seems pretty early to start defending a partner when 10 votes are needed to lynch. I think he was more gunning for mcmc.

yeah, I don't want to lynch MiX, not yet. Robz lately is paying his meta in the thread trying to seem town but usually ends up as scum. hmmm

Boooo for the lazy "read".  You have read enough games to realize Robz playing up is meta is what he does.  It's a Robz-tell.  So, yes, he hasn't been abducted and replaced by weasels.

I can't tell if that or this is the scummier vote:

vote: 2.7 he doesn’t feel as genuine as he normally does to me. Hasn’t come across as towny and he normally does pretty early.

[Uncleeurope]

Who would you say is Shraeye’s partner?

[EFHW]

Funny thing is, I disagree with all the arguments against e, including the "all town" wagon. But I would still vote him, for my own reason, which is his driving of the Robz lynch. Reading it again, it's quite remarkable how he drops posts in here and there and keeps the wagon moving forward.

[EFHW]

Who would you say is Shraeye’s partner?

You already asked me that. I said I didn't know.

[Uncleeurope]

Oh sorry, I forgot, only got three hours of sleep, barely holding on to my head currently.

[EFHW]

Well technically he townread him here:

Some players have done towny things. No players have set themselves apart as “good.” 

So I’m struggling to separate the wheat.

Yeah, I agree with this big big.  I have a handful of scumreads, a double-handful of people I'm suspicious of. Another handful of people I'm null on, which makes me suspicious.  My scale is severely tipped towards scum; glooble and Uncle are my two singular townreads.  I've got DatSwan sorted into town category too, but that's mostly my gut-read from day1 carrying over.

Ok, that throws a wrench in things. Unless he had decided to nk him. It was pretty clear that a Glooble wagon would go nowhere.

[EFHW]

Well technically he townread him here:

Some players have done towny things. No players have set themselves apart as “good.” 

So I’m struggling to separate the wheat.

Yeah, I agree with this big big.  I have a handful of scumreads, a double-handful of people I'm suspicious of. Another handful of people I'm null on, which makes me suspicious.  My scale is severely tipped towards scum; glooble and Uncle are my two singular townreads.  I've got DatSwan sorted into town category too, but that's mostly my gut-read from day1 carrying over.

Ok, that throws a wrench in things. Unless he had decided to nk him. It was pretty clear that a Glooble wagon would go nowhere.

Well, that wasn't actually clear until later. Guess it's a wash.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 3.5
"Mr. O'Brien! I haven't seen you in here in a while? Need some alterations done to one of your Holosuite costumes?" Garak asks.

"Err, no," the chief says, getting out his specially modified tricorder. "Just got to do some scans. Some part of the environmental system is leaking theta radiation and I just need to scan around the Promenade until I find it."

"Be my guest," Garak says. O'Brien starts to scan the shop.

"Perhaps, over by the mirror?" he says pointedly.

"Garak, I don't know what you think you know but--"

"Don't take this the wrong way, Chief, but you're a very bad liar," the tailor says, still smiling. "Nonetheless I do hope you find what you're looking for."


Vote count:

faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (4): faust, UncleEurope, SpaceAnemone, MiX
UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, chickenwarlord

Not Voting (1): ashersky

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th .

[Swowl]

WCD- talk to me. Why are we chicken over E!?

[Swowl]

Happy St Patty’s day everyone!

[Chickenwarlord]

Or maybe that scum team found Gloobie townie.

Shraeye even mentioned Gloobie as a town read.

With all of this NK analysis going on, we might be overlooking the most simple explanation on Glooble, as evidenced here by Eddie.

I doubt we'll ever get a good understanding of why Shraeye bit the dust today. As far as memory serves no one was really making a case for Shraeye being scum were they? This could be as simple as two scum teams focusing townie-seeming players unlikely to be lynched.

Spitballing some targetfinding for Night 2 here:
Scum likely didn't NK Faust because Faust seemed lynchable after driving the Awaclus wagon. I'm fairly certain I wasn't targeted because I'm super lynchable and look pretty scummy. E had enough detractors from day 1 that he also wouldn't have been a good NK. Eddie's claim makes him a fairly bad NK target, should that be true. MiX was super polarizing on both days.
I think pretty much anyone else from the pool would make sense for scum to knock out.

If raerae is right about Glooble being offed for a reason, it was likely decided after the vote on him failed to get any traction. Maybe we should start looking before the Glooble vote?

[faust]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

That's stupid.

[faust]

I do not like faust's case. @faust, is e your remaining neighbor?

No comment.

[faust]

I'd say ashersky is not likely to be Shraeye's partner, given Shraeye's "ashes to ashes" campaign.

That went on for 3 or 4 posts, never had any weight behind it, and shraeye quickly abandons it to join the LaLight wagon.

[faust]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

That's stupid.

Slightly longer and less hostile reply:

We have good evidence to look for shraeye's partners. We have very little evidence to find a non-Maquis scum. If anything, looking for non-Maquis scum greatly increases the risk of lynching town because we are excluding people that have a pretty decent chance of flipping scum.

[MiX]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post?

Pretty sure I did and pretty sure there were two. I'll see what I can find in the bigger am hours.

Did you ever talk about this again? Sure shraeye died but the confusion stands.

While I'm talking about D2, @faust, did you ever post that N1 NK analysis? Unrelated, do you think it's important for today?

Rereading raerae just gets me some nulls, not the townieness of M121 raerae but I confess her scumread on me is distorting that, next step might be rereading that game. Oh and rereading e, of course.

[faust]

While I'm talking about D2, @faust, did you ever post that N1 NK analysis? Unrelated, do you think it's important for today?

It was basically "I'm not dead and this implicates my neighbors". Also I think scum avoiding commonly nightkilled players makes it more likely that they have one such player on their team. I think we can see one team killing off strong townie-looking players (mcmc, shraeye) and the other avoiding them in favor of lower profile kills (Jimmmmm, Glooble).

[WestCoastDidds]

WCD- talk to me. Why are we chicken over E!?

Hmmmm....well, I think Chicken looks shifty and his response to pressure hasn’t been awesome, plus he was one of the three who had noticeably less interaction with Shraeye (along with Rae and Space) but he’s also way new so he could just be getting is legs under him. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking more about his response to pressure and it is definitely more moderated than I’d expect (based entirely on me and my cohort) from a newb, and now I wonder if he’s been told not to freak out if he picks up votes, and perhaps he’s also been told he needs to engage more...direction from a scum QT? I think there is a good chance he’s scum, so it’s not a throwaway vote.

I can definitely see moving my vote to e, but it would put him at 5 (L-2) and this seems a bit dangerous this far from deadline with a double voter of unknown alignment out there so I’m holding off until we hear more from e. He’d be a lot more attractive to me if freaking MiX and Eddie weren’t on his wagon.

I think, at this point on Monday morning before I’ve had coffee, I’d be okay voting for chicken, e, or MiX.

What are you thinking? Is it time to go, or to stay the course?

[faust]

WCD- talk to me. Why are we chicken over E!?

Hmmmm....well, I think Chicken looks shifty and his response to pressure hasn’t been awesome, plus he was one of the three who had noticeably less interaction with Shraeye (along with Rae and Space) but he’s also way new so he could just be getting is legs under him. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking more about his response to pressure and it is definitely more moderated than I’d expect (based entirely on me and my cohort) from a newb, and now I wonder if he’s been told not to freak out if he picks up votes, and perhaps he’s also been told he needs to engage more...direction from a scum QT? I think there is a good chance he’s scum, so it’s not a throwaway vote.

I can definitely see moving my vote to e, but it would put him at 5 (L-2) and this seems a bit dangerous this far from deadline with a double voter of unknown alignment out there so I’m holding off until we hear more from e. He’d be a lot more attractive to me if freaking MiX and Eddie weren’t on his wagon.

I think, at this point on Monday morning before I’ve had coffee, I’d be okay voting for chicken, e, or MiX.

What are you thinking? Is it time to go, or to stay the course?

Can you clarify who you would prefer to lynch, e or chicken?

[faust]

Also, I don't understand the reasoning behind fewer interactions = partner. Can you explain?

[MiX]

He’d be a lot more attractive to me if freaking MiX and Eddie weren’t on his wagon.

I forgot why you're scumreading me. But most importantly, what's wrong with Eddie's vote?

[SpaceAnemone]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post?

Pretty sure I did and pretty sure there were two. I'll see what I can find in the bigger am hours.

Did you ever talk about this again? Sure shraeye died but the confusion stands.

What are you feeling confused about, exactly?

[EFHW]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

That's stupid.

Slightly longer and less hostile reply:

We have good evidence to look for shraeye's partners. We have very little evidence to find a non-Maquis scum. If anything, looking for non-Maquis scum greatly increases the risk of lynching town because we are excluding people that have a pretty decent chance of flipping scum.

What is the good evidence? His defending e? Do you have leads on other potential partners? We should be looking for any scum. IF we have two teams, there are 3 mirror scum and only two maquis scum to find. We have a better chance of hitting mirror than maquis.

[SpaceAnemone]

While I'm talking about D2, @faust, did you ever post that N1 NK analysis? Unrelated, do you think it's important for today?

It was basically "I'm not dead and this implicates my neighbors". Also I think scum avoiding commonly nightkilled players makes it more likely that they have one such player on their team. I think we can see one team killing off strong townie-looking players (mcmc, shraeye) and the other avoiding them in favor of lower profile kills (Jimmmmm, Glooble).

The one killing off the lower-profile people must be the Maquis, since that's what Shraeye flipped, so you're suggesting that one of the other Maquis is a commonly-NKd player. That also means the one killing off the strong townies is the SK, or the MU team.

I'd actually previously hypothesized this same paring (mcmc-Shraeye and Jimmmmm-Glooble) for another reason, and that's that the first pair are both off-wagon for the Robz lynch, and the second pair are both on-wagon.

Maquis kills: low-profile on-Robz-wagon. This also gels with the fact that Shraeye himself was off-wagon.
Other: "strong townie" off-Robz-wagon.

So I'd guess that if we have an SK, they were more likely on-wagon for Robz, and that if we have an MU team, at least some of them were on there not wanting to be PoEd too easily. We might also find another Maquis off the Robz wagon, too. This is getting all very vague and speculative, though, given we have no way of telling how the NK deaths actually pair up.

[EFHW]

I do not like faust's case. @faust, is e your remaining neighbor?

No comment.

It feels to me like you are trying to manipulate us again.

[faust]

I do not like faust's case. @faust, is e your remaining neighbor?

No comment.

It feels to me like you are trying to manipulate us again.

I mean, you could always go and ask e if he's my neighbor. I don't think revealing that info is beneficial right now. Being my neighbor does not factor strongly into any read I have right now.

[faust]

So what do people think about hunting the non-Shraeye team with the hopes of evening that stuff up?

That's stupid.

Slightly longer and less hostile reply:

We have good evidence to look for shraeye's partners. We have very little evidence to find a non-Maquis scum. If anything, looking for non-Maquis scum greatly increases the risk of lynching town because we are excluding people that have a pretty decent chance of flipping scum.

What is the good evidence? His defending e? Do you have leads on other potential partners? We should be looking for any scum. IF we have two teams, there are 3 mirror scum and only two maquis scum to find. We have a better chance of hitting mirror than maquis.

The evidence is everything shraeye did and all interactions people had with shraeye. Yes I have leads on other potential partners.

I would not vote someone if I thought they were kind of likely to be Maquis but super unlikely to be other scum. But that is purely theoretical because having such a read at this point in the game is impossible. Every Maquis suspect has a decent chance to flip MU. Plus we don't know if MU even exists. Hunting for nonexistent scum seems like a pretty bad idea.

[EFHW]

re: Chicken leaving MiX's wagon, I don't think having a scum partner join a wagon would make me leave. I'd assume that partner wanted us to be on the same wagon for a reason.

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, I don't understand the reasoning behind fewer interactions = partner. Can you explain?

I’m not sure that it = partner, but when I did the reread it was noticeable how much Shraeye interacted with/about everyone except for those three. (He made a comment or two about Shraeye/raerae confusion but didn’t address her). It just felt off to me, especially in light of how many of the folks he interacted with flipped town.

As far as my lynch peference, like I said, I’m waiting to see what e has to say for himself in regard to the wagon, but at the moment they are both in top 3.

[WestCoastDidds]

He’d be a lot more attractive to me if freaking MiX and Eddie weren’t on his wagon.

I forgot why you're scumreading me. But most importantly, what's wrong with Eddie's vote?

Eddie votes without articulated reasons and moves His vote frequently. He is also voting for me a lot, which I know is short-sighted. I don’t find him especially town-helpful right now. Not scummy, necessarily, but his presence on e’s wagon doesn’t make it seems townier.

[faust]

As far as my lynch peference, like I said, I’m waiting to see what e has to say for himself in regard to the wagon, but at the moment they are both in top 3.

That does not answer my question. Also e already responded to the wagon. If deadline was now, would you prefer to lynch chicken or e?

[raerae]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

[raerae]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post?

Pretty sure I did and pretty sure there were two. I'll see what I can find in the bigger am hours.

Did you ever talk about this again? Sure shraeye died but the confusion stands.

While I'm talking about D2, @faust, did you ever post that N1 NK analysis? Unrelated, do you think it's important for today?

Rereading raerae just gets me some nulls, not the townieness of M121 raerae but I confess her scumread on me is distorting that, next step might be rereading that game. Oh and rereading e, of course.

Space answered it for me.

[WestCoastDidds]

faust, did he respond with anything more then this?

Ugh. Wagons on me. I always feel awkward defending myself, much prefer to go on the offensive and find another wagon to focus on. Like chicken, for example.

[faust]

faust, did he respond with anything more then this?

Ugh. Wagons on me. I always feel awkward defending myself, much prefer to go on the offensive and find another wagon to focus on. Like chicken, for example.

I don't really see why I should answer yur questions when you don't answer mine.

[WestCoastDidds]

faust, did he respond with anything more then this?
I don't really see why I should answer yur questions when you don't answer mine.

Huh? I was trying to answer your question. I said I was waiting for e to respond before I decided, you said he had. I was looking back to see. I was trying to work with you, so this seems really odd to me.

[WestCoastDidds]

faust, did he respond with anything more then this?
I don't really see why I should answer yur questions when you don't answer mine.

EBWOP...quote fail
Huh? I was trying to answer your question. I said I was waiting for e to respond before I decided, you said he had. I was looking back to see. I was trying to work with you, so this seems really odd to me.

[Uncleeurope]

@faust, thoughts on raerae?

[Swowl]

WCD- talk to me. Why are we chicken over E!?

Hmmmm....well, I think Chicken looks shifty and his response to pressure hasn’t been awesome, plus he was one of the three who had noticeably less interaction with Shraeye (along with Rae and Space) but he’s also way new so he could just be getting is legs under him. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking more about his response to pressure and it is definitely more moderated than I’d expect (based entirely on me and my cohort) from a newb, and now I wonder if he’s been told not to freak out if he picks up votes, and perhaps he’s also been told he needs to engage more...direction from a scum QT? I think there is a good chance he’s scum, so it’s not a throwaway vote.

I can definitely see moving my vote to e, but it would put him at 5 (L-2) and this seems a bit dangerous this far from deadline with a double voter of unknown alignment out there so I’m holding off until we hear more from e. He’d be a lot more attractive to me if freaking MiX and Eddie weren’t on his wagon.

I think, at this point on Monday morning before I’ve had coffee, I’d be okay voting for chicken, e, or MiX.

What are you thinking? Is it time to go, or to stay the course?

Personally, I do not mind staying the course. However, unless i can come up with more persuasive info, it seems that may not be good enough to make chicken happen.

[WestCoastDidds]

Personally, I do not mind staying the course. However, unless i can come up with more persuasive info, it seems that may not be good enough to make chicken happen.

Yep, yep. He hasn’t done a lot so it’s hard to point to anything specific.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

So your vote is locked in? No other person will be receiving your vote today? No other human in this game is worthy of suspicion at this moment?

[raerae]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

So your vote is locked in? No other person will be receiving your vote today? No other human in this game is worthy of suspicion at this moment?

I feel strongly enough that MiX is scum that I don't want to move. I'm pissed that people have dismissed my case because I couldn't possibly know what my husband (the man I've known since we were 14) could possibly be thinking. So, in defense of myself, in defiance of other loud voices in the game, and out of a not small amount of stubbornness, you're right and my vote is locked.

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t really have a response to that, but thank you for responding.

[Swowl]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

So your vote is locked in? No other person will be receiving your vote today? No other human in this game is worthy of suspicion at this moment?

I feel strongly enough that MiX is scum that I don't want to move. I'm pissed that people have dismissed my case because I couldn't possibly know what my husband (the man I've known since we were 14) could possibly be thinking. So, in defense of myself, in defiance of other loud voices in the game, and out of a not small amount of stubbornness, you're right and my vote is locked.

I am assuming I did not read your MiX case closely enough, so I will re-do that now.
Also though - you should probably read some other cases if you have time before DL. Tunneling one person at this junction is most likely not good for town.

[raerae]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

So your vote is locked in? No other person will be receiving your vote today? No other human in this game is worthy of suspicion at this moment?

I feel strongly enough that MiX is scum that I don't want to move. I'm pissed that people have dismissed my case because I couldn't possibly know what my husband (the man I've known since we were 14) could possibly be thinking. So, in defense of myself, in defiance of other loud voices in the game, and out of a not small amount of stubbornness, you're right and my vote is locked.

I am assuming I did not read your MiX case closely enough, so I will re-do that now.
Also though - you should probably read some other cases if you have time before DL. Tunneling one person at this junction is most likely not good for town.

Do you think I haven't been reading? Sticking to my guns and ignoring the game are two different things. I don't love the e case, don't really even like it, and I'm feeling less good about faust this game than last. He feels the same about me I'd guess so that doesn't really mean much.  But I have nothing other than feelings to go on there, I can't even give a blow by blow of what I don't like about the case, it just doesn't feel right to me.  I'm not sure about chicken because he's new so while I agree with some points made I'm not comfortable enough that he's scum to dive in on that one.

[EFHW]

raerae, I had discounted MiX as a Shraeye partner because Shraeye spent a lot of time on the MiX wagon. How does that fit into your narrative?

[EFHW]

re: Chicken leaving MiX's wagon, I don't think having a scum partner join a wagon would make me leave. I'd assume that partner wanted us to be on the same wagon for a reason.

DatSwan,  how much of your chicken case is based on his wagon hop, and does my take on it change anything for you?

[EFHW]

ashersky, where are you likely to vote?

[EFHW]

Didds, you don't like the e wagon because Eddie is on it, but you don't list Eddie as one of the people you would lynch. How does that work?

[raerae]

raerae, I had discounted MiX as a Shraeye partner because Shraeye spent a lot of time on the MiX wagon. How does that fit into your narrative?

Because he isn't afraid to make a case on a partner (as faust pointed out) or even bus a partner of they're being scummy, he just doesn't push for them strongly like he does when he's town. I'd say he's almost more likely to do it if I'm on that person so he doesn't draw my suspicion (but I don't know that, it's just a  guess, I'm interested if he'd agree post-game).

[Uncleeurope]

Raerae, thoughts on WCD?

[raerae]

Raerae, thoughts on WCD?

I haven't seen anything that makes me suspicious, she's seemed helpful and reserved which, I guess, strikes me as townie in a game this size. I haven't seen anything glaringly scummy or opportunistic.

[Chickenwarlord]

Hmmmm....well, I think Chicken looks shifty and his response to pressure hasn’t been awesome, plus he was one of the three who had noticeably less interaction with Shraeye (along with Rae and Space) but he’s also way new so he could just be getting is legs under him. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking more about his response to pressure and it is definitely more moderated than I’d expect

Do people usually fall to pieces? I know it's easy to crack under pressure when stuff is happening in person, but having to live real life in between being accused of high crimes kinda takes the edge off ya know?
As much as we're making out of noninteraction with others in the thread it I find it a bit questionable that this is a sticking point. Since there wasn't a whole lot of suspicion and discussion being done about Shraeye in the first place, why would I have engaged? It seems like Shraeye is pretty well seasoned here and was just trying to interact and get reads from those with which he was familiar. As a relative newcomer, it would be harder for him to analyze or even get a read on any interaction with me.

There are plenty of ways to attack my current standing - why choose this one?
Eddie, as a guy who throws out a lot of questions asking for thoughts on X - what do you think of this 'less interaction = skum bedfellows' line of thinking?

[Uncleeurope]

Depends on the player, some scum will talk to their partners a lot, others will try to pretend that they don't exists. I don't think that you as a player this game have interacted with pretty much anyone directly, which might be incorrect thinking.

It's not the reason I think you are scum, but if others find it significant, I am not opposed.

[faust]

faust, did he respond with anything more then this?
I don't really see why I should answer yur questions when you don't answer mine.

EBWOP...quote fail
Huh? I was trying to answer your question. I said I was waiting for e to respond before I decided, you said he had. I was looking back to see. I was trying to work with you, so this seems really odd to me.

I have asked you to decide now.

[faust]

@faust, thoughts on raerae?

There are some odd interactions with shraeye, but that could just be knowing each other well. Overall fairly townie.

[Uncleeurope]

You would call the odd interactions with e to be much more significant?

[faust]

You would call the odd interactions with e to be much more significant?

No. But e is scummy independent of interactions with shraeye.

[Uncleeurope]

Why was Raerae your first instinct?

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

[faust]

Why was Raerae your first instinct?

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

She stuck out the most when rereading shraeye. Then I reread all the people who stuck out and decided that actually, e is the scummiest.

[Uncleeurope]

Why was Raerae your first instinct?

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

She stuck out the most when rereading shraeye. Then I reread all the people who stuck out and decided that actually, e is the scummiest.

Who would you want to kill if it wasn't e?

[faust]

Why was Raerae your first instinct?

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

She stuck out the most when rereading shraeye. Then I reread all the people who stuck out and decided that actually, e is the scummiest.

Who would you want to kill if it wasn't e?

I do not want to answer that question.

[Uncleeurope]

Why was Raerae your first instinct?

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

She stuck out the most when rereading shraeye. Then I reread all the people who stuck out and decided that actually, e is the scummiest.

Who would you want to kill if it wasn't e?

I do not want to answer that question.

Well that is unfortunate. How many people are on your okay-to-kill-today list? And how many are you satisfied with?

[faust]

Why was Raerae your first instinct?

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

She stuck out the most when rereading shraeye. Then I reread all the people who stuck out and decided that actually, e is the scummiest.

Who would you want to kill if it wasn't e?

I do not want to answer that question.

Well that is unfortunate. How many people are on your okay-to-kill-today list? And how many are you satisfied with?

I don't have a list like that.

[Uncleeurope]

Why was Raerae your first instinct?

Oh I just finished a reread as well. I can recommend it.

Vote: raerae

She stuck out the most when rereading shraeye. Then I reread all the people who stuck out and decided that actually, e is the scummiest.

Who would you want to kill if it wasn't e?

I do not want to answer that question.

Well that is unfortunate. How many people are on your okay-to-kill-today list? And how many are you satisfied with?

I don't have a list like that.

Okay, well did you think of a name when I asked my initial question?

I don''t know why I am pursuing this, but it seems important for me getting a read on you, despite how meaningless any information I achieve is, now.

[faust]

Okay, well did you think of a name when I asked my initial question?

Yes.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay, well did you think of a name when I asked my initial question?

Yes.

Perfect.

[Swowl]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

So your vote is locked in? No other person will be receiving your vote today? No other human in this game is worthy of suspicion at this moment?

I feel strongly enough that MiX is scum that I don't want to move. I'm pissed that people have dismissed my case because I couldn't possibly know what my husband (the man I've known since we were 14) could possibly be thinking. So, in defense of myself, in defiance of other loud voices in the game, and out of a not small amount of stubbornness, you're right and my vote is locked.

I am assuming I did not read your MiX case closely enough, so I will re-do that now.
Also though - you should probably read some other cases if you have time before DL. Tunneling one person at this junction is most likely not good for town.

Do you think I haven't been reading? Sticking to my guns and ignoring the game are two different things. I don't love the e case, don't really even like it, and I'm feeling less good about faust this game than last. He feels the same about me I'd guess so that doesn't really mean much.  But I have nothing other than feelings to go on there, I can't even give a blow by blow of what I don't like about the case, it just doesn't feel right to me.  I'm not sure about chicken because he's new so while I agree with some points made I'm not comfortable enough that he's scum to dive in on that one.

... I just meant I thought i missed your E! case and needed to re read it. didn't mean to imply anything else.

[ashersky]

ashersky, where are you likely to vote?

Anyone but me, basically.

[WestCoastDidds]

Didds, you don't like the e wagon because Eddie is on it, but you don't list Eddie as one of the people you would lynch. How does that work?

Ehhh....he jumps around a lot so I’m not convinced he’ll stay, although the longer that persists the less relevant this is. But if he stays just long enough for it to reach a critical mass and then hops, that feels disengenious to me. So, a rather minor point, but between the (increasingly suspicious) faust, MiX, and Eddie, it’s just seems like a rather unattractive option. If there were more of my town reads locked in there, I’d feel more secure.

What do you think, EFHW, of the pressure that faust is giving me about weighing options? Does this fit into your manipulation narrative about him this game? It feels decidedly odd to me.

[faust]

Vote: WCD

[MiX]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

So your vote is locked in? No other person will be receiving your vote today? No other human in this game is worthy of suspicion at this moment?

I feel strongly enough that MiX is scum that I don't want to move. I'm pissed that people have dismissed my case because I couldn't possibly know what my husband (the man I've known since we were 14) could possibly be thinking. So, in defense of myself, in defiance of other loud voices in the game, and out of a not small amount of stubbornness, you're right and my vote is locked.

Will you ever admit that you were wrong when I flip town?

Didds, you don't like the e wagon because Eddie is on it, but you don't list Eddie as one of the people you would lynch. How does that work?

Ehhh....he jumps around a lot so I’m not convinced he’ll stay, although the longer that persists the less relevant this is. But if he stays just long enough for it to reach a critical mass and then hops, that feels disengenious to me. So, a rather minor point, but between the (increasingly suspicious) faust, MiX, and Eddie, it’s just seems like a rather unattractive option. If there were more of my town reads locked in there, I’d feel more secure.

What do you think, EFHW, of the pressure that faust is giving me about weighing options? Does this fit into your manipulation narrative about him this game? It feels decidedly odd to me.

Hmm...what do you actually think of Eddie? Is he scum? Is he town? Null? Not liking how someone votes isn't a reason for not joining whatever wagon they're on.


And now, @chicken, what are your scumreads? And what do you think of Space and EFHW?

[WestCoastDidds]

Hmm...what do you actually think of Eddie? Is he scum? Is he town? Null? Not liking how someone votes isn't a reason for not joining whatever wagon they're on.

Sure it is. You say that like it is a universal truth.  It might not be a reason for you, but that isn’t true of everybody. And looking at the wagon and thinking about who is on it, is definitely one of the things I do.

As far as Eddie’s status....somewhere between null and scum.

[EFHW]

What do you think, EFHW, of the pressure that faust is giving me about weighing options? Does this fit into your manipulation narrative about him this game? It feels decidedly odd to me.

My guess is that you are his second choice after e so he is trying to make things uncomfortable for you.

My concern about manipulation is that the Awaclus case felt very iffy to me. Like he was spinning things as scummy as opposed to actually finding scummy things. His case on e feels very much the same.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, I'm here. I still feel like garbage and I'm not sure if I'll be able to get all the way caught up because I have a bunch of other stuff I need to catch up on today too, I've been useless in all areas of my life not just forum mafia.

If there's anything anyone asked me that they want a response to, point it out for me and I'll address it, and I'll try to do some catching up and giving my thoughts over the course of the day.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Odds are actually better than usual that I'll be around for deadline tomorrow, but I'll probably only be active for like the last hour or so before deadline.

[EFHW]

Okay, raerae, who would you vote for after MiX?

I want MiX, why do I have to compromise on that? I'm constantly accused of knowing anything and everything about shraeye, a shraerae team accusation gets made every game we're in, yet now when I actually feel confident about something related to him I'm dismissed because how could I ever possibly know anything about how shraeye thinks? It's nonsense. I'm not moving.

So your vote is locked in? No other person will be receiving your vote today? No other human in this game is worthy of suspicion at this moment?

I feel strongly enough that MiX is scum that I don't want to move. I'm pissed that people have dismissed my case because I couldn't possibly know what my husband (the man I've known since we were 14) could possibly be thinking. So, in defense of myself, in defiance of other loud voices in the game, and out of a not small amount of stubbornness, you're right and my vote is locked.

My issue with your case is that there are many possible reasons for why Shraeye's team killed Glooble. If MiX is scum, then Glooble's suspecting him would have been a factor. But MiX could be town and Shraeye's team would still have compelling reasons to nk Glooble. He was going to be hard to lynch and at one point Shraeye had a scumread on him. So for me it doesn't follow that MiX HAS to be scum.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm at basically the worst level of focus for this ever, so no promises, but I think this is the VC right now:

Vote Count 3.5.UoS

2.71828..... (3): UncleEurope, SpaceAnemone, MiX
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, chickenwarlord
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW
Didds (1): faust

Not Voting (1): ashersky

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th .

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Space/MiX, could you two summarize the e case for me?

[faust]

My concern about manipulation is that the Awaclus case felt very iffy to me. Like he was spinning things as scummy as opposed to actually finding scummy things. His case on e feels very much the same.

I don't understand how the two would feel the same. The Awaclus push had some amount of insincerity of course, since I had a hidden agenda. I don't understand how the e case is similar however... with Awaclus, I have tunneled him all day, hammering home the same point over and over again. With e, I have deliberately withheld my thoughts in order to get unbiased rereads from other players, I have only made the case when pressed and it involves an evaluation of his whole game and interactions rather than just a single vote. The two things are different in basically every respect.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 3.6
Worf looks up at the sound of the turbolift, and is greeted by the odd sight of Kasidy Yates and Morn, marching towards his office. He walks out to meet them.
"Why are our ships being detained?" asks Kasidy. Morn nods in agreement.
"We have had six murders in the last three days," says Worf. "It would be irresponsible to allow any civilian traffic to leave the station until the murderers are caught."
"We'll see about that," says Kasidy.

Vote count:
faust (1): UmbrageOfSnow
2.71828..... (3): UncleEurope, SpaceAnemone, MiX
UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, chickenwarlord
WCD (1): faust
Not Voting (1): ashersky
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th . That's in a little over 24 hours, folks.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Okay, let's ruin Glooble's hard work
Vote: MiX

2.71828..... (3): UncleEurope, SpaceAnemone, MiX
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (3): raerae, chickenwarlord, Umbrageofsnow

UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW
WCD (1): faust
Not Voting (1): ashersky

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: WCD

[UmbrageOfSnow]

UE, did you have a particular reason for voting e or was it just keeping options open?

[Uncleeurope]

Yup, I found his hammer scummy, his wagon positions scummy, his response to suspicion scummy and I wanted to sheep Faust.

I was never over the moon about the idea though, been preferring. A WCD lynch for awhile.

[EFHW]

My concern about manipulation is that the Awaclus case felt very iffy to me. Like he was spinning things as scummy as opposed to actually finding scummy things. His case on e feels very much the same.

I don't understand how the two would feel the same. The Awaclus push had some amount of insincerity of course, since I had a hidden agenda. I don't understand how the e case is similar however... with Awaclus, I have tunneled him all day, hammering home the same point over and over again. With e, I have deliberately withheld my thoughts in order to get unbiased rereads from other players, I have only made the case when pressed and it involves an evaluation of his whole game and interactions rather than just a single vote. The two things are different in basically every respect.

In both cases you won't discuss anyone else. Your pressure on WCD certainly seems like you want the e lynch and are going to fight for it. Both cases feel contrived.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So why are you voting for me and not faust?

[EFHW]

Okay, let's ruin Glooble's hard work
Vote: MiX

2.71828..... (3): UncleEurope, SpaceAnemone, MiX
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (3): raerae, chickenwarlord, Umbrageofsnow

UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW
WCD (1): faust
Not Voting (1): ashersky

Glooble's or Shraeye's?

[EFHW]

So why are you voting for me and not faust?

I don't think faust is scum.

[MiX]

Space/MiX, could you two summarize the e case for me?

Well, I think e's scummy mostly out of a gut read: it seems that everyone I put in my "towny but not 100% town" list is scum: in M121 ss and Uncle were there (and arishipshape was even higher) and I ended D2 with shraeye as the single person in it...and now e's there. Otherwise I'm simply sheeping faust, I really like his case, it makes perfect sense...except the hammer that is, he could be a cop for all we know and wanted to not get NKd. But the rest's good. Now that I think about it, what has e done D2 and D3? I don't remember much. Well, D2 he started the lighting faust wagon but what else? I feel like town!e would be doing much, MUCH more but I'll need to reread that.

What do you think of faust?

PPE 2: Glooble being the mod here.

[EFHW]

A cop with a result should speak up, not try to live another night. 1:1 benefits town. Ignoring this was one flawed assumption in faust's Awaclus ploy, which I am still irritated about.

[MiX]

A cop with a result should speak up, not try to live another night. 1:1 benefits town. Ignoring this was one flawed assumption in faust's Awaclus ploy, which I am still irritated about.

This late in the day I highly doubt anyone will come out with a guilty result. I also believe 3 nights are the correct number of nights to wait, so I don't think you're right. But what do I know.

What does this have to do with faust's play?

[faust]

My concern about manipulation is that the Awaclus case felt very iffy to me. Like he was spinning things as scummy as opposed to actually finding scummy things. His case on e feels very much the same.

I don't understand how the two would feel the same. The Awaclus push had some amount of insincerity of course, since I had a hidden agenda. I don't understand how the e case is similar however... with Awaclus, I have tunneled him all day, hammering home the same point over and over again. With e, I have deliberately withheld my thoughts in order to get unbiased rereads from other players, I have only made the case when pressed and it involves an evaluation of his whole game and interactions rather than just a single vote. The two things are different in basically every respect.

In both cases you won't discuss anyone else. Your pressure on WCD certainly seems like you want the e lynch and are going to fight for it. Both cases feel contrived.

Mh, I am happy to discuss other options and have done so. But what options do we have? chicken, where the case boils down to "he's kind of lurky", and MiX, the person scum!shraeye has tried to lynch for most of D2. Neither of those seems very appealing, and noone has come up with a convincing case.

I would gladly engage with someone who is really making a case on someone that's more than one throwaway observation. It is not my fault that this is not happening.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

What do you think of faust?

I think I need to reevaluate him in light of his Ferengi claim, and I'm not going to have the time to do that before deadline probably, especially as I need to take the time and try to avoid confbias. But I've been the only one scumreading him, or at least willing to vote him all game, other than for 30 seconds on Day 2. It's pretty clear we're not going to lynch him today so I'm going to focus on other people.

[faust]

What do you think of faust?

I think I need to reevaluate him in light of his Ferengi claim, and I'm not going to have the time to do that before deadline probably, especially as I need to take the time and try to avoid confbias. But I've been the only one scumreading him, or at least willing to vote him all game, other than for 30 seconds on Day 2. It's pretty clear we're not going to lynch him today so I'm going to focus on other people.

Here's a list of all the alive players, and all the other players who've vote for them at least once so far in the game, in case it's interesting for everyone else:
[...]

faust: 8 (UmbrageOfSnow, DatSwan, MiX, ashersky, 2.71828....., Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Sure doesn't feel that way.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

EFHW: are you townreading e?

[MiX]

What do you think of faust?

I think I need to reevaluate him in light of his Ferengi claim, and I'm not going to have the time to do that before deadline probably, especially as I need to take the time and try to avoid confbias. But I've been the only one scumreading him, or at least willing to vote him all game, other than for 30 seconds on Day 2. It's pretty clear we're not going to lynch him today so I'm going to focus on other people.

Right, you don't have all the time in the world. I forgot, sorry about that. You're right, there's no need to reread him before N3.


In other news, I just reread E, he has no posts and no reason for why he's voting chicken. I remember E as being much better as town than this, no V/LA or low activity announcement so...what is he doing?

[EFHW]

A cop with a result should speak up, not try to live another night. 1:1 benefits town. Ignoring this was one flawed assumption in faust's Awaclus ploy, which I am still irritated about.

This late in the day I highly doubt anyone will come out with a guilty result. I also believe 3 nights are the correct number of nights to wait, so I don't think you're right. But what do I know.

What does this have to do with faust's play?

You said maybe Awaclus would have claimed cop if e hadn't hammered him,  which reminded me that faust's plan depended on town all assuming he was a cop with a result, which I didn't and wouldn't.

3 nights to wait for what?

[EFHW]

My concern about manipulation is that the Awaclus case felt very iffy to me. Like he was spinning things as scummy as opposed to actually finding scummy things. His case on e feels very much the same.

I don't understand how the two would feel the same. The Awaclus push had some amount of insincerity of course, since I had a hidden agenda. I don't understand how the e case is similar however... with Awaclus, I have tunneled him all day, hammering home the same point over and over again. With e, I have deliberately withheld my thoughts in order to get unbiased rereads from other players, I have only made the case when pressed and it involves an evaluation of his whole game and interactions rather than just a single vote. The two things are different in basically every respect.

In both cases you won't discuss anyone else. Your pressure on WCD certainly seems like you want the e lynch and are going to fight for it. Both cases feel contrived.

Mh, I am happy to discuss other options and have done so. But what options do we have? chicken, where the case boils down to "he's kind of lurky", and MiX, the person scum!shraeye has tried to lynch for most of D2. Neither of those seems very appealing, and noone has come up with a convincing case.

I would gladly engage with someone who is really making a case on someone that's more than one throwaway observation. It is not my fault that this is not happening.

You have refused to share your ideas about other potential Shraeye partners.

[EFHW]

EFHW: are you townreading e?

No.

[MiX]

A cop with a result should speak up, not try to live another night. 1:1 benefits town. Ignoring this was one flawed assumption in faust's Awaclus ploy, which I am still irritated about.

This late in the day I highly doubt anyone will come out with a guilty result. I also believe 3 nights are the correct number of nights to wait, so I don't think you're right. But what do I know.

What does this have to do with faust's play?

You said maybe Awaclus would have claimed cop if e hadn't hammered him,  which reminded me that faust's plan depended on town all assuming he was a cop with a result, which I didn't and wouldn't.

3 nights to wait for what?

Wait what when did I say that? When did anyone said that? I meant that E could be a cop...oops. I didn't know that was confusing.

3 nights to always come out with a guilty result. But WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM so maybe I shouldn't have said anything. I'll think about this more in N3. If you're still confused, maybe you should be, I'm not sure I should be talking about this... If you aren't confused, then I'll just say that this doesn't mean faust misplayed his gambit, I think that's how cop would want to come out with a result D2.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay, I am just going to put this out there.

WCD is my top scum pick for today. I think that the majority of her posts are contentless at best and bornderlined manipulative at worst. Under direct questions she squirms and any opinion she released is either because of someone else (Example: “EFHW, what was it you said again about Faust manipulating”) thus eliminating personal attachment to the case or followed up by a second option to read the situation. Sooo much waffling.

Like, if someone could be the human incarnation of a waffle, it’s WCD.

Her name is now WaffleCoastDidds, I have dubbed it such.

Pair that with some of the wagon analysis that has been going around and it just doesn’t look good.

[faust]

You have refused to share your ideas about other potential Shraeye partners.

Yes. I don't see how sharing that would benefit town right now. It only helps scum figure out who they should nightkill, and gives them leeway to support the wagon on the scumread that isn't their partner.

[Uncleeurope]

I should also throw in that out of everyone she is the person who has been the most “well, Uncle is suspect” without doing ANYTHING about it. Like, make a case on me or leave me alone, because what she is doing is he definition of keeping me open an option to lynch in the future.

I think that behavior is scummy and am using that to build my case, an element you people might not see as significant as I see it. So some amount of my case could be seen as bias, and should be noted.

[MiX]

I should also throw in that out of everyone she is the person who has been the most “well, Uncle is suspect” without doing ANYTHING about it. Like, make a case on me or leave me alone, because what she is doing is he definition of keeping me open an option to lynch in the future.

I think that behavior is scummy and am using that to build my case, an element you people might not see as significant as I see it. So some amount of my case could be seen as bias, and should be noted.

Er...reread past Didds games. I don't think this is any difference from her town games. In fact, I reread her N2 and what I determined is that she's not a Survivor, just look at RMM50 and this and spot the differences, mostly with her votes.

When did she manipulate anyone? Examples, please.

[WestCoastDidds]

Oh, thanks for the personal attacks, Eddie. And a mean nickname to boot. Yeah, that’s awesome. Cool.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh, thanks for the personal attacks, Eddie. And a mean nickname to boot. Yeah, that’s awesome. Cool.

Is waffle an anti-Belgian racial slur?

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, thanks for the personal attacks, Eddie. And a mean nickname to boot. Yeah, that’s awesome. Cool.

None of that was meant to be personal attacks, I very much enjoy my games with you included. And the nickname was also meant to be playful as well.

Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

[WestCoastDidds]

How is it that I am simultaneously contentless, have no unique opinions, and manipulative? I’m not sure that someone so utterly useless could manipulate anything at all.

I cite the people I’m drawing from not as cover, but to provide a sense of where I’m coming from. It’s also a way for me to keep up with what what various folks are doing and who I think is standing on my side of the room.

I do not project confidence when I am not confident. That’s not waffling, that’s the reality of a big, complicated game and being open to evolving positions. So, pretty much you think I’m scummy because I am not confident about my position in a game where half the people are lying. That seems awfully towny to me. I find the overconfidence of others far more telling than not.

I share way more of my thought process than most people do, even when my conclusions are tenuous. I do not and have not waffled when I vote. faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote. That is not waffling or stubborness, it’s actually being thoughtful. I talk about who else I would or would not vote for, but I also think carefully about what a vote would mean. So, for example, I didn’t move my vote to e when faust was questioning me because I believe L-2 is a dangerous place to be until we are ready to lynch. I think chicken is a better vote, for now, but feel okay about an e vote, too. A list of two or three is not a list of 12.

What do you mean that I say you are suspicious and do nothing about it? I’ve voted for you and will again if the tides turn that way. I don’t think that time is now. But you are on my short list, I’ve made no bones about that. Yes, I’m open to lynching you in the future. That is not hidden information. That’s not a case against me. It being annoyed with me and/or my list.

Why would you want me to move my vote off chicken? Are you looking to protect him? Between you and faust, this is looking like a super sketching gambit.

[Uncleeurope]

No, I’m not trying to protect chicken, I was one of the first people to start poking at chicken to begin with IIRC.

That being said I like your post.

[faust]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

[WestCoastDidds]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

My preference is for a lynch. I’m voting for chicken and have been for awhile. So, at present he’s my preference but I can’t say that I feel strongly about it. (My thoughts about him have lots of “seems” and “feels”) If there is no critical mass there in the next 20 hours, then e or MiX. I can’t really see voting for someone outside that list today.

[MiX]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

My preference is for a lynch. I’m voting for chicken and have been for awhile. So, at present he’s my preference but I can’t say that I feel strongly about it. (My thoughts about him have lots of “seems” and “feels”) If there is no critical mass there in the next 20 hours, then e or MiX. I can’t really see voting for someone outside that list today.

What's your chicken case? I could move there, but it would really be for self-defense, I'm pretty sure e's scummier than him and much more likely to flip Maquis; I just don't see chicken doing no interaction with his partner.

[raerae]

Reread shraeye D2 because of people saying that shraeye was pushing the MiX lynch all day and this is what I found.

Original vote here:

He then spends a fair amount of time pushing Awaclus buttons, says Glooble is a townread (didn't somebody say he had suspicion of Glooble but couldn't get the lynch through??),

My scale is severely tipped towards scum; glooble and Uncle are my two singular townreads. 

and then finally votes Awaclus here.  But then he never addresses MiX as scum again until EOD where he revotes MiX (below).  So, no, he didn't push his lynch all day, he barely even bumped it, he would vote for MiX and then walk away.  He never tried to make a MiX lynch happen, he voted for him, sure, but he never pushed for his lynch and never tried to get anybody else on board, never even questioned anybody on their MiX reads.

What that mini-reread of D2 made me realize is that faust actually thinks Awaclus' vote on Robz is scummy because it locked in the lynch...which is just weird.

That's literally exactly what you did (blame the person who locked in the Robz vote) except you think that belongs to a different person.  This is THE MOST opportunistic shift I could imagine.  Like, you just rewrote the book on scum-deflection/fake-reason-giving.

Vote: Mix

 

[raerae]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

Wasn't your mantra last game that individual players get to decide when to answer questions directed at them?  I specifically remember you calling me out for having scumreads for failure to answer questions.  Why do you feel differently this game?

[faust]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

Wasn't your mantra last game that individual players get to decide when to answer questions directed at them?  I specifically remember you calling me out for having scumreads for failure to answer questions.  Why do you feel differently this game?

It's fine for me if people don't want to answer questions, but then they should say so.

[faust]

Vote: e

[MiX]

Ew, raerae's right, shraeye gunned Awaclus much more than me. Oh well.

Who was townreading me in D2? E, right? So your argument for "shraeye didn't convince anyone that MiX was scummy" could very well be "shraeye didn't want E to jump on the MiX wagon" which is obviously a partner tell. But surely someone else townread me, right? I'll do a reread of D2 and come back with findings.

[SpaceAnemone]

Currently doing some thinking and re-reading, but I thought I'd share this: it's the complement of my other list: this time I'm listing each living player, and all the other players (alive or dead) for whom they've voted.

UmbrageOfSnow (4): EFHW, MiX, faust, Robz888
EFHW (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Glooble, 2.71828.....
DatSwan (5): faust, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord
WestCoastDidds (7): EFHW, MiX, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord
SpaceAnemone (5): MiX, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope
MiX (12): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, faust, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord
faust (8): Jimmmmm, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae
ashersky (7): UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, faust, Robz888, Awaclus, raerae, Chickenwarlord
2.71828..... (7): EFHW, DatSwan, faust, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord
Uncleeurope (13): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, raerae, Chickenwarlord
raerae (7): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, Shraeye, MiX, faust, ashersky, raerae
Chickenwarlord (3): MiX, Robz888, Awaclus

[Uncleeurope]

Guys, I think I’m winning.

[faust]

Guys, I think I’m winning.

Already missed out on mcmc and shraeye though. You should go grab DatSwan while you still can.

[EFHW]

vote: e. I won't be on at deadline.

[WestCoastDidds]

Deadline is tomorrow at noon?

I should be around, but I’m out for the rest of the evening.

[MiX]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

[raerae]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

[MiX]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

No one else was townreading me, so there wasn't really an opportunity for shraeye to say I'm scummy.

[raerae]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

No one else was townreading me, so there wasn't really an opportunity for shraeye to say I'm scummy.

There was lots of opportunity, there were plenty of people not voting for you.

[MiX]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

No one else was townreading me, so there wasn't really an opportunity for shraeye to say I'm scummy.

There was lots of opportunity, there were plenty of people not voting for you.

I guess...but those people were mostly voting Awaclus, so shraeye had no reason to persuade them. Which also applies to E, so there goes my very very very weak extra case on E.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space/MiX, could you two summarize the e case for me?

Basically, I think at least one of e and EFHW are probably scum, and e hasn't done anything that makes me think it's not him, while EFHW has at least been asking quite a few questions about people's motivations lately. It's not the strongest town tell, but I'll take an active engaged player over a lurky scummy one. (And there's definitely a non-zero chance they're both scum anyway).

I first posted about the D1 e wagon at #1014, and sometime later e used that as a reason to try re-reading WCD, who I still think is being quite solidly townie. Since D1, Awaclus has also flipped town (see updated wagon-analysis post at #1447). Also, WCD was only on the wagon for part of the relatively long time that it was a stable wagon, so I think the greatest suspicion has to be on e, or on EFHW, who is the only non-flipped person other than WCD who was on the wagon.

Finally, faust puts forward a good collection of points at #1633 as an e case. I wasn't necessarily motivated by trying to find only people who're likely Shraeye partners, so I didn't really look at it exactly the same way as faust, but I agree that making a point of not having read the setup and the way in which he hammered Awaclus look like they're for show to deflect kills from him, for instance. Also this:

One thing, you can call me scum (and be incorrect) just don't call me scum on the same team as shraeye.

Classic "You're finding me scummy for the wrong reasons!"

-- not super-strong evidence by any stretch of the imagination, but it was the first thing I thought when I read what e had written too.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'll be awake and at a computer in the run-up to deadline, but I'll also be at work, so not really paying attention beyond lunch break, which for me is about 2.5 hours before deadline.

I like the e wagon, but if it ends up being a no-go, MiX is another strong choice. I'm quite meh on Chicken. I'd also consider a wagon on Eddie, because I still don't find him townie, though last time I tried going there the only person to join me was e, which I should think more about.

[SpaceAnemone]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post?

Pretty sure I did and pretty sure there were two. I'll see what I can find in the bigger am hours.

Did you ever talk about this again? Sure shraeye died but the confusion stands.

What are you feeling confused about, exactly?

@MiX, I'm still interested in reading your response to what you thought the confusion was here, and why it was relevant to dredge it up again at this point.

[Swowl]

Here and will be here until deadline. Been reading along - have a few things i want to post when i get home.. but honestly not much has changed since last i checked in since everything has been kind of circular.

[WestCoastDidds]

Can we get a vote count, please before the morning?

[Chickenwarlord]

And now, @chicken, what are your scumreads? And what do you think of Space and EFHW?

I think EFHW is likely scum, but almost certainly not Maquis (this is only true if we have two scumteams, if we have an SK - I don't think EFHW is the call).

Space has been all over the place on my reads - comes out feeling pretty neutral.

I think faust's analysis of E! is spot on for the most part. Honestly thinking about shifting my vote here, but weighing it against how awful it will make me look if E! flips town.

Currently doing some thinking and re-reading, but I thought I'd share this: it's the complement of my other list: this time I'm listing each living player, and all the other players (alive or dead) for whom they've voted.
Chickenwarlord (3): MiX, Robz888, Awaclus

I also briefly voted for raerae.

[faust]

Honestly thinking about shifting my vote here, but weighing it against how awful it will make me look if E! flips town.

Factoring that into your votes is what makes you look bad, not lynching  townie.

[Chickenwarlord]

Honestly thinking about shifting my vote here, but weighing it against how awful it will make me look if E! flips town.

Factoring that into your votes is what makes you look bad, not lynching  townie.

There are other reasons - none the least of which is sheeping your lead last time ended poorly for town.

[MiX]

@MiX, I'm still interested in reading your response to what you thought the confusion was here, and why it was relevant to dredge it up again at this point.

I was ISOing raerae and never saw the answer to this. I think I had skimmed your post on my first read so it felt like something left unanswered.

Honestly thinking about shifting my vote here, but weighing it against how awful it will make me look if E! flips town.

Factoring that into your votes is what makes you look bad, not lynching  townie.

There are other reasons - none the least of which is sheeping your lead last time ended poorly for town.

Why are you scared of voting E? The E case is so much better than the Awaclus case. You shouldn't vote because of what others will think, you know you're town so everything has a town explanation.

[Chickenwarlord]

This could all be a big scum collusion from the other team, and I know that MiX has a vested interest in getting my vote off of him. But I still can't deny the fact that the case against E! is fairly solid and probably a bit better than the one against MiX.  Perhaps I'm being played like a fiddle by scum here but -

Vote: E!

[Uncleeurope]

Fine, Vote: E

[faust]

Fine, Vote: E

Unannounced L-1.

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, thank you, I hadn’t realized

[MiX]

Fine, Vote: E

L-?

I could use a vote count right now, can anyone make one?

PPE: Wow.

[faust]

Honestly thinking about shifting my vote here, but weighing it against how awful it will make me look if E! flips town.

Factoring that into your votes is what makes you look bad, not lynching  townie.

There are other reasons - none the least of which is sheeping your lead last time ended poorly for town.

Past performance is not an indicator of future results!

[Uncleeurope]

Honestly thinking about shifting my vote here, but weighing it against how awful it will make me look if E! flips town.

Factoring that into your votes is what makes you look bad, not lynching  townie.

There are other reasons - none the least of which is sheeping your lead last time ended poorly for town.

Past performance is not an indicator of future results!

In that case predicting future results is impossible.

[Swowl]

Swan Count:
2.71828..... (6): , SpaceAnemone, MiX, Faust, EFHW, Chicken, UncleEurope
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, Snow
Not Voting (1): ashersky

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 3.6
For some reason it seems like about once a week the Station's populace starts becoming very restless. And with no one heading up Security, it seems likely that someone's going to get hurt.


Vote count:

2.71828..... (6): SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, EFHW, chickenwarlord, UncleEurope
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, UmbrageOfSnow

Not Voting (1): ashersky

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch most players. Day 3 will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Wednesday, March 20th . That's 6.5 hours.

[ashersky]

Announced hammer coming.

[ashersky]

2.7’s extreme lack of defense and activity the last half of this day feels like caught scum or listless town. Either way works.

I will say, the relative lack of opposition makes it feel sort of odd.

[Uncleeurope]

Do you have a preference to kill a different player?

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning, folks!

Joth, the flavor is awesome and made me laugh.

We’re at L-1? With Ash intent to hammer? I’ll hammer if he doesn’t. So another intent.

It seems like e should have had more to say in the last few days about the situation. Let’s give him a minute though in case there is more to learn. Deadline is 5 hours away, I think.

[MiX]

Don't forget to both hammer, in case he's Loved.

That said, are we just waiting for E to pop in? I don't see anything else happening...

[Uncleeurope]

Hey, now, if we don’t wait it out we won’t get to have the joy of all piling onto someone else randomly then immediately folding back to the original target. And where’s the fun in that?

[ashersky]

vote: 2.7

[faust]

*sigh*

So what exactly was the point in waiting?

[ashersky]

Good morning, folks!

Joth, the flavor is awesome and made me laugh.

We’re at L-1? With Ash intent to hammer? I’ll hammer if he doesn’t. So another intent.

It seems like e should have had more to say in the last few days about the situation. Let’s give him a minute though in case there is more to learn. Deadline is 5 hours away, I think.

I find this possibly scummy. Depends on the flip, I think. Just felt like a post where wcd felt the need to point out that they’d hammer while simultaneously stalling.  Could be nothing, I guess. Like I said, everyone feels scummy.

[ashersky]

*sigh*

So what exactly was the point in waiting?

What’s the issue?  I stated intent, waited a requisite amount of time, then followed through. It was especially important given wcd’s post, I think.

It’s getting late. 2.7 has had like four IRL days to fix this. 

[2.71828.....]

Listless is right. This was a bad game for me, not exactly sure why. Definitely let town down here

[jotheonah]

Thread Locked

[jotheonah]

Final Vote Count 3.7
Nog is sharing an after-shift drink with some fellow junior officers. They’re a few drinks in when General Martok sits down at the other side of the bar.

“You know we didn’t have all these problems before we started letting Klingons in here,” one slurs.

“They’re all violent thugs,” says another. “(Except Captain Worf of course).”

“That Klingon only has one eye!” says a third. “Klingons usually have two! I bet he’s a shapeshifter who didn’t do his research!”

“Guys, the Klingons are our allies, calm down,” Nog says, but the officers have already drawn their phasers.


Vote count:

2.71828..... (7): SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, EFHW, chickenwarlord, UncleEurope, ashersky[/s]
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, UmbrageOfSnow

2.71828..... has been lynched. He was General Martok, Station-aligned Bomb

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch. Night 3 begins now and will end at 8 am forum time/US ET (12:00 GMT) on Friday,  March 22nd.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 4.0

Worf is dressing down the junior officers involved in Martok's murder, but he notices one is missing.

"Where is Ensign Nog?" He taps his combadge. "Worf to Nog."

"Maybe he was injured in the scuffle?" asks one officer.

Worf taps his combadge.

"Worf to Bashir."

But there's no answer there either.

chickenwarlord has died. He was Nog, Station-aligned Neighbor.

DatSwan has died. He was Dr. Bashir, Station-aligned Changeling Cop/1-shot Doctor.


Vote count:

Not voting (9): SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, EFHW, UncleEurope, ashersky, WestCoastDidds, raerae, UmbrageOfSnow

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch most players. Day 4 begins now and will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Friday,  March 29th.

You mod will be V/LA much of the week but will be back by deadline. Glooble will be covering.

THREAD UNLOCKED

[faust]

So.... massclaim?

Sorry MiX.

[Uncleeurope]

So.... massclaim?

Sorry MiX.

Is this just for cops? Not seeing a huge perk otherwise.

[faust]

So.... massclaim?

Sorry MiX.

Is this just for cops? Not seeing a huge perk otherwise.

Mainly. Though going forwrad it will also be important for LyLo situations to know who the Loved/Doublevoter people are. Maybe we don't want to out Cops yet? I'm not sure. But if the MU Cop has found anything, they should 100% come forward, otherwise we're screwed.

[Uncleeurope]

Well, some of are are.

[Uncleeurope]

Also, whad I miss about MiX?

[faust]

Also, whad I miss about MiX?

He complained that he never got the first post at Day start. I ninja'd him twice.

[Uncleeurope]

Ah, right.

[MiX]

So.... massclaim?

Sorry MiX.

Why the sorry? Oooooh, damn. But I was busy just minutes ago, so you can do this.

I agree with massclaim...and I kinda want faust to dictate it. But that was before Nog flipped, not so sure now.

[Uncleeurope]

we Shouldn’t need a dictator.

[MiX]

we Shouldn’t need a dictator.

Okay, then who claims first? Claims are so trivial I don't see the downside of letting faust say the order, I trust him. What's your alternative then?

[Uncleeurope]

Not claiming till people all weigh in and not placing unwarranted trust on Faust.

[faust]

we Shouldn’t need a dictator.

Okay, then who claims first? Claims are so trivial I don't see the downside of letting faust say the order, I trust him. What's your alternative then?

I think I would order by role, not player.

[faust]

Not claiming till people all weigh in and not placing unwarranted trust on Faust.

...

[Uncleeurope]

Not claiming till people all weigh in and not placing unwarranted trust on Faust.

...

*shrugs* that’s my alternative.

[faust]

I agree with massclaim...and I kinda want faust to dictate it. But that was before Nog flipped, not so sure now.

Surely chicken dying would make me more townie, not less...?

[Uncleeurope]

It makes you less to me.

[faust]

Not claiming till people all weigh in and not placing unwarranted trust on Faust.

...

*shrugs* that’s my alternative.

I'm just saying, you withholding your claim doesn't scare me too much.

[Uncleeurope]

Well my recommendation for an alternative wasn’t just for myself. If it was just for me I wouldn’t have said anything.

[EFHW]

The order doesn't really matter much. We don't have any action investigators or role blockers to catch someone lying.

[MiX]

I agree with massclaim...and I kinda want faust to dictate it. But that was before Nog flipped, not so sure now.

Surely chicken dying would make me more townie, not less...?

Well, if there's scum in ferengi it can only be you. But no, you're right, I didn't think about the implications.

[faust]

The order doesn't really matter much. We don't have any action investigators or role blockers to catch someone lying.

We may have a Bus Driver.

[faust]

So, I think the first order of business should be that Elim Garak claims.

[MiX]

So, I think the first order of business should be that Elim Garak claims.

But not results, right?

[Uncleeurope]

What if I wanted to claim first?

Okay, I’m done. Ima go sleep now, see you people later, hopefully after all the scum decide to forfeit for fun.

[faust]

So, I think the first order of business should be that Elim Garak claims.

But not results, right?

What results?

[MiX]

So, I think the first order of business should be that Elim Garak claims.

But not results, right?

What results?

The...the targets for bus drive in each potencial night. Say, if I drived N1 targets were X and Y, if N2 targets A and B etc. And of course he shouldn't say when he did it untill it matters in case he didn't do it at all.

[faust]

So, I think the first order of business should be that Elim Garak claims.

But not results, right?

What results?

The...the targets for bus drive in each potencial night. Say, if I drived N1 targets were X and Y, if N2 targets A and B etc. And of course he shouldn't say when he did it untill it matters in case he didn't do it at all.

No, they should claim everything.

[MiX]

Oh. Okay...sure, that works. Reminder that it helps scum!cops but I suppose barely so.

We should wait for more people to have their say on this, but I think I agree with this.

[WestCoastDidds]

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

DatSwan was the only person I really trusted. Ugh. Chicken being Ferengi explains some of his difference in play bewtween D2 and D3.

So, there are 9 left? And if there are two scum teams, that only leaves four of us from town? Ugh. If there is an SK, then six of us are town? Ugh, but slightly less so. And the scum know each other and have had a chance to talk?  I feel like we’re screwed. How am I so bad at this game? Ugh.

I’m at a writing retreat in Oregon today through late Sunday, so pretty much V/LA until Monday. I’ll try to check in some but it will be limited engagement. Apologies in advance.

To;dr: ugh

[faust]

Chicken being Ferengi explains some of his difference in play bewtween D2 and D3.

Tell me more about that difference.

[ashersky]

So, I think the first order of business should be that Elim Garak claims.

But not results, right?

What results?

The...the targets for bus drive in each potencial night. Say, if I drived N1 targets were X and Y, if N2 targets A and B etc. And of course he shouldn't say when he did it untill it matters in case he didn't do it at all.

So clearly claiming not Bus Driver, I see.

[ashersky]

It’s officially “faust has been alive too long to be town” time.

Plus the neighborhood flips make you look worse.

[faust]

Plus the neighborhood flips make you look worse.

Why?

[raerae]

Vote: MiX

Faust is on my suspicion list too. I'm cool with ash and UncleEddie. I don't have any feelings about claiming.

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

Faust is on my suspicion list too. I'm cool with ash and UncleEddie. I don't have any feelings about claiming.

Yeah, yeah, you exist. I don't think we should say our reads before claiming but that vote's obvious.

[raerae]

Vote: MiX

Faust is on my suspicion list too. I'm cool with ash and UncleEddie. I don't have any feelings about claiming.

Yeah, yeah, you exist. I don't think we should say our reads before claiming but that vote's obvious.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to obey faust's every whim because you nominated him King of the thread. I didn't vote for him and I'll do what I want.

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

Faust is on my suspicion list too. I'm cool with ash and UncleEddie. I don't have any feelings about claiming.

Yeah, yeah, you exist. I don't think we should say our reads before claiming but that vote's obvious.

I'm sorry, I'm not going to obey faust's every whim because you nominated him King of the thread. I didn't vote for him and I'll do what I want.

I fail to see what faust has to do with my own opinion about not talking about reads before claiming.

[SpaceAnemone]

It’s officially “faust has been alive too long to be town” time.

I was thinking that, too. But clearly he can't be on both non-town factions, so we have evidence that at least one scummy person not aligned with faust is definitely choosing not to target him, which is better than we have for most games.

[faust]

I'm sorry, I'm not going to obey faust's every whim because you nominated him King of the thread. I didn't vote for him and I'll do what I want.

Oh but you did:

Vote: faust

Yes, that vote was absolutely for king of the thread elections. You didn't realize what you were voting for at the time? Well something something Brexit referendum.

[EFHW]

So, I think the first order of business should be that Elim Garak claims.

I'm good with that.

[raerae]

I'm sorry, I'm not going to obey faust's every whim because you nominated him King of the thread. I didn't vote for him and I'll do what I want.

Oh but you did:

Vote: faust

Yes, that vote was absolutely for king of the thread elections. You didn't realize what you were voting for at the time? Well something something Brexit referendum.

Aaaaaannnnnndddddd I just spit my coffee out trying not choke while laughing. Much appreciated!

[EFHW]

I'm not sure if the cops should claim, though. Unless they have positive results, of course. This is a reason not to mass claim. The cops are our only ability to get information other than from flips, and they will one or both die tonight if we out them. Even if they have negative results on the same person, that person could still be SK. It could be worth looking through DatSwan's Day 3 to see if he crumbed anything about his N2 result.

The continued spate of town nk's makes me think SK is more likely than MU at this point. Just by chance you would think an MU would have been hit by now.

[faust]

Well time for some calculations.

Considering we know that neither SK nor MU have flipped so far, from a townie's POV (assuming all lynches and kills are random with the exception of no in-team NKs) probabilities are like this:

Maquis + SK: 66.14%
Maquis + MU: 33.86%

So... still very much possible that we have a bunch of scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

Well time for some calculations.

Considering we know that neither SK nor MU have flipped so far, from a townie's POV (assuming all lynches and kills are random with the exception of no in-team NKs) probabilities are like this:

Maquis + SK: 66.14%
Maquis + MU: 33.86%

So... still very much possible that we have a bunch of scum.

Why do these numbers depend on having a townie's PoV? Would a Maquis point of view make a difference to your calculation?

My numbers would be the same either way, but I still get a slight difference (64% chance of SK) compared to you, so I'd still like to know what you're doing differently.

[raerae]

Do they numbers really help you scumhunt? (I can't tell if I'm annoyed or genuinely curious right now so take it how you will.)

[faust]

Well time for some calculations.

Considering we know that neither SK nor MU have flipped so far, from a townie's POV (assuming all lynches and kills are random with the exception of no in-team NKs) probabilities are like this:

Maquis + SK: 66.14%
Maquis + MU: 33.86%

So... still very much possible that we have a bunch of scum.

Why do these numbers depend on having a townie's PoV? Would a Maquis point of view make a difference to your calculation?

My numbers would be the same either way, but I still get a slight difference (64% chance of SK) compared to you, so I'd still like to know what you're doing differently.

Knowledge that you are a townie and have not been killed factors into things like "how likely was it that there was a D1 lynch that wasn't SK"? From an outside perspective, assuming there is an SK, that's 17/18. If you do it conditional on knowing you were not the lynch target, it's 16/17.

Numbers for non-me townies should still be slightly different if you factor in the knowledge that I am not the SK.

[faust]

Do they numbers really help you scumhunt? (I can't tell if I'm annoyed or genuinely curious right now so take it how you will.)

Not really, I just do them for fun. It is nice to get a sense of how much we should worry about a second team, but in practice it probably does not change too much for our play today.

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

[SpaceAnemone]

Do they numbers really help you scumhunt? (I can't tell if I'm annoyed or genuinely curious right now so take it how you will.)

In this case, yes, I think they help scum-hunt, but maybe not how you're assuming. In general, the numbers are the numbers; what varies is the set of people able to report them to the thread, and how those people chose to do so, and what their choices might potentially say about their alignment.

Here, I was considering how much more likely scum!faust was to say something along the lines of "from a townie's POV" compared to town!faust. The thing is, I don't think factoring me not dying into a scenario where we're assuming equal-likelihood town deaths is the correct thing to do off the top of my head. I'll have to think more about it later.

[SpaceAnemone]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm not sure it's easy to make it that simple in a multi-bad-guy setup.

I'm reasonably confident that you yourself are not Maquis because of the combined voting patterns of you and Shraeye.

I also think it's unlikely that you and MiX are both town, but it's not impossible. There was a point in D2 that you were on MiX for a while along with Awaclus and Glooble (now-flipped townies) and Shraeye. That's possible bussing on Shraeye's part, especially since he was the the first to move off the wagon. It could also be that MiX is town and you're MU/SK. Or it could be that you're both town, and no other scum joined because Shraeye was already there and the MU/SK member(s) just didn't show interest.

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: MiX

Faust is on my suspicion list too. I'm cool with ash and UncleEddie. I don't have any feelings about claiming.

Suddenly I am an acceptable lynch? Ya liah.

When did your opinion flip of me?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

[Uncleeurope]

Welcome

[EFHW]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

[Uncleeurope]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

I have a guess...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

We need to be debating if and when we're going to lynch Uncleeurope before deciding whether or not we massclaim I think. If we're going to lynch him for tactical reasons, massclaiming today is purely counterproductive.

There is no reason we have to massclaim at the start of the day if we're going to do it, especially in this setup, assuming cops would have outed on a guilty result, claims don't affect the chances of anyone being town. They only matter because of POE from cop clears and scum not being able to claim more convenient results later on.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Welcome

Sorry I never got back to you last night, everything took longer than expected and then I was exhausted. (I shouldn't bring out of game stuff into the game or I won't be able to talk about it! Talk to you on Skype later (6ish?) Can't log on now.)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

I have a guess...

Please don't guess.

[Uncleeurope]

We need to be debating if and when we're going to lynch Uncleeurope before deciding whether or not we massclaim I think. If we're going to lynch him for tactical reasons, massclaiming today is purely counterproductive.

There is no reason we have to massclaim at the start of the day if we're going to do it, especially in this setup, assuming cops would have outed on a guilty result, claims don't affect the chances of anyone being town. They only matter because of POE from cop clears and scum not being able to claim more convenient results later on.

Ooh, fun. So how we gunna do dis? A show of hands, for and against?

I can (probably) engage much easier in the discussion of my death.

[Uncleeurope]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

I have a guess...

Please don't guess.

I wasn’t planning on it. Unless you mean at all, in which case I refuse to adhere to your frivolity.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So people who have played with Swan more than I have, as an Even-night SK cop, is there any chance he wouldn't out himself if he had a guilty on Day 3?

It would be a misplay, but is there any chance he doesn't realize it would have been a misplay?

[MiX]

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

We need to be debating if and when we're going to lynch Uncleeurope before deciding whether or not we massclaim I think. If we're going to lynch him for tactical reasons, massclaiming today is purely counterproductive.

There is no reason we have to massclaim at the start of the day if we're going to do it, especially in this setup, assuming cops would have outed on a guilty result, claims don't affect the chances of anyone being town. They only matter because of POE from cop clears and scum not being able to claim more convenient results later on.

I can't see an Uncle policy lynch while there's 2 scum teams, no way they would coordinate like that, if one team tries the other goes "obv!scum" and we nab like 2 of them, too risky for no reward.

So people who have played with Swan more than I have, as an Even-night SK cop, is there any chance he wouldn't out himself if he had a guilty on Day 3?

It would be a misplay, but is there any chance he doesn't realize it would have been a misplay?

I usually think of Swan as a highly analytical player that would clearly think about how the Odo flip means a guilty result cracks the game wide open. But what would I know.


Hmm, anything else I missed? UoS' best setup person alive so that's all the things I have to talk about right now. We should get Garak to claim so we get this day rolling.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

Proving my point.

[MiX]

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

Proving my point.

I suppose. But you didn't have to yell.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Why so anxious for Garak to claim?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

Proving my point.

I suppose. But you didn't have to yell.

I wanted to make sure no one missed it, I don't see CAPSLOCK as being somehow hostile to everyone. And engaging with this really locks that in. It's a mistake that plenty of people might make if we get into just all claiming everything truthfully.

[MiX]

Why so anxious for Garak to claim?

I feel like I shouldn't say my reads before it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Why so anxious for Garak to claim?

I feel like I shouldn't say my reads before it.

Why do you (not faust) think Garak should be the first role to claim?

[MiX]

Why so anxious for Garak to claim?

I feel like I shouldn't say my reads before it.

Why do you (not faust) think Garak should be the first role to claim?

Because the benefit for scum!cops of Garak claiming first is negligible. And no other roles target anyone. Therefore, to limit scum!Garak's options, he should claim first.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Glooble/Joth: If a cop is redirected by Garak, do they get "Your target is/is not Maquis/Mirror Universe/Changeling" or do they get "NAME is/is not Maquis/Mirror Universe/Changeling?"

And if the second, would the name be the correct name of who they actually targeted after the bun drive, or the name of the player they thought they targeted?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

We should organize a bun drive before we decide on a lunch.

[raerae]

Vote: MiX

Faust is on my suspicion list too. I'm cool with ash and UncleEddie. I don't have any feelings about claiming.

Suddenly I am an acceptable lynch? Ya liah.

When did your opinion flip of me?

Sorry, that was poor phrasing, I mean I'm cool with you guys, like we tight, like we town.

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

[MiX]

Glooble/Joth: If a cop is redirected by Garak, do they get "Your target is/is not Maquis/Mirror Universe/Changeling" or do they get "NAME is/is not Maquis/Mirror Universe/Changeling?"

And if the second, would the name be the correct name of who they actually targeted after the bun drive, or the name of the player they thought they targeted?

If it's the name they thought they targetted then it's functionally the same as the first one.

We should organize a bun drive before we decide on a lunch.

I like you. I hope we keep interacting like this in every game, this is fun.

[raerae]

We should organize a bun drive before we decide on a lunch.

I love carbs! /In!!

[EFHW]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

[faust]

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

Calm down mister.

[faust]

We need to be debating if and when we're going to lynch Uncleeurope before deciding whether or not we massclaim I think. If we're going to lynch him for tactical reasons, massclaiming today is purely counterproductive.

Making that decision not knowing the number of scums seems difficult.

[MiX]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

And not that she asked 3 of 4 players that aren't part of her reads? Really? I suppose she hadn't clarified what she felt about ash and Uncle but still.

Also, eh...let's leave it like that.

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

Calm down mister.

You are me. I am you. Together we'll drive another mislynch! Let's go!

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

[MiX]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Vote: UoS

[raerae]

You are me. I am you. Together we'll drive another mislynch! Let's go!

This rings remotely of the Barney theme song...

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Vote: UoS

That is hands down the weirdest quote to vote I've ever seen.

[EFHW]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Ok, that's good. Basically, I don't agree with your MiX theory, which I already said yesterday.

[MiX]

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Vote: UoS

That is hands down the weirdest quote to vote I've ever seen.

Really? It's so obvious why I voted I except everyone to come crashing down at me for this. I'm ready.

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Ok, that's good. Basically, I don't agree with your MiX theory, which I already said yesterday.

Yeah, but disagreeing with my theory doesn't indicate alignment. Are we both still null to you? Seems like you should have some leanings at this point.

[MiX]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Ok, that's good. Basically, I don't agree with your MiX theory, which I already said yesterday.

Will you answer the question? If so, when?

PPE 1: Okay, okay, I should let raerae do this.

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Ok, that's good. Basically, I don't agree with your MiX theory, which I already said yesterday.

Will you answer the question? If so, when?

PPE 1: Okay, okay, I should let raerae do this.

Naw, I'll let you play too. Are we town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum? You got any theories as to why I asked those three? (Spoilers: Your last theory was wrong.)

[EFHW]

I said I wasn't going to answer because I have no idea. There are too many possible combinations of motivations because scum are legit scum hunting along with town.

[Uncleeurope]

You are me. I am you. Together we'll drive another mislynch! Let's go!

This rings remotely of the Barney theme song...

I am you, you are me,
Time to Mislynch bli-indly
With a great big vote,
Faust is our only town
Won’t you say you are me too?

[EFHW]

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Vote: UoS

That is hands down the weirdest quote to vote I've ever seen.

Really? It's so obvious why I voted I except everyone to come crashing down at me for this. I'm ready.

This is the third or fourth thing already today that you have presented as obvious without explaining.

[raerae]

You are me. I am you. Together we'll drive another mislynch! Let's go!

This rings remotely of the Barney theme song...

I am you, you are me,
Time to Mislynch bli-indly
With a great big vote,
Faust is our only town
Won’t you say you are me too?

Honestly can't tell if I like you more or less now.

[Uncleeurope]

You are me. I am you. Together we'll drive another mislynch! Let's go!

This rings remotely of the Barney theme song...

I am you, you are me,
Time to Mislynch bli-indly
With a great big vote,
Faust is our only town
Won’t you say you are me too?

Honestly can't tell if I like you more or less now.

Same.

[MiX]

Ok, that's good. Basically, I don't agree with your MiX theory, which I already said yesterday.

Will you answer the question? If so, when?

PPE 1: Okay, okay, I should let raerae do this.

Naw, I'll let you play too. Are we town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum? You got any theories as to why I asked those three? (Spoilers: Your last theory was wrong.)

I'm pretty sure it's town v town. My last theory was my only theory.

Vote: UoS

That is hands down the weirdest quote to vote I've ever seen.

Really? It's so obvious why I voted I except everyone to come crashing down at me for this. I'm ready.

This is the third or fourth thing already today that you have presented as obvious without explaining.

Explaining is a scumtell! Also, wait, I won't die with this information. What were the other things?

I am you, you are me,
Time to Mislynch bli-indly
With a great big vote,
Faust is our only town
Won’t you say you are me too?

Honestly can't tell if I like you more or less now.

Same.

Vote: Uncle

Hmm...no

Unvote

[jotheonah]

Glooble/Joth: If a cop is redirected by Garak, do they get "Your target is/is not Maquis/Mirror Universe/Changeling" or do they get "NAME is/is not Maquis/Mirror Universe/Changeling?"

And if the second, would the name be the correct name of who they actually targeted after the bun drive, or the name of the player they thought they targeted?

They would get "Result: Not Maquis/Mirror Universe/Changeling. And if their target was busdriven, that result would be on the player they actually targeted.

So cops are not informed of a bus drive, and it is a way they could get phony investigative results.

[faust]

You are me. I am you. Together we'll drive another mislynch! Let's go!

The funniest thing is that your name is literally my RL name with a vowel exchanged.

[faust]

raerae, how surprised are you to still be alive?

[raerae]

raerae, how surprised are you to still be alive?

I'm not, really. My thought process is basically MiX's team can't kill me without having to play the "but it's too obvious, we never would have done that!" card, and the other team/faction/whatever has no incentive to kill me because I'm either alive to push MiX or dead so they can.

[MiX]

raerae, how surprised are you to still be alive?

faust, how surprised are you that raerae is still alive?

[ashersky]

SA, did you post the percentages for how likely it is for scum to be in the neighborhood?

Also, can you post the current likelihood percentage for faust being scum IF there is scum in the neighborhood this game?

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Vote: UoS

Wait, is it because UoS is the person I haven't expressed a read on/one of the three I mentioned above?  And, if so, do you think he's my partner?  And, if so, doesn't that mean you don't actually think we (you and I) are town v town?

[faust]

Also, can you post the current likelihood percentage for faust being scum IF there is scum in the neighborhood this game?

I can tell you that: 100%

[faust]

SA, did you post the percentages for how likely it is for scum to be in the neighborhood?

Also, can you post the current likelihood percentage for faust being scum IF there is scum in the neighborhood this game?

Thinking about this post some more, it seems clear that your scum read on me is based on a misunderstanding of probability. But since you won't listen to me, I'll leave this to Space.

[faust]

raerae, how surprised are you to still be alive?

faust, how surprised are you that raerae is still alive?

Mildly. She's an active participant in the game, more so than DatSwan and certainly more than chicken, and has not received much scrutiny so far.

[Uncleeurope]

Also, can you post the current likelihood percentage for faust being scum IF there is scum in the neighborhood this game?

I can tell you that: 100%

I stared at this for a solid too-long-amount-of-time before figuring out what was actually said.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay, a few questions for the group:

How does town proceed in a 3v2v4 scenario?

How does town proceed in a 2v1v6 scenario? (Obviously a much happier situation)

This is literally my first game with multiple baddie teams (yup, using the word team because saying scum sides doesn't feel right to me). And I don't know, (or care to deduce for myself, honestly) what the next steps should be to ensure town's survival.

What do we do now that the claiming thing didn't happen?

[faust]

What do we do now that the claiming thing didn't happen?

We should still force a claim. Scum Cops have too strong an incentive not to claim. Elim Garak is scummy for refusing to claim. We need to know who the Loved/Doublevoters are. Did anyone actually make an argument against claiming beyond "I'm opposed to anything faust suggests"?

[Uncleeurope]

I was opposed to you being granted sole custody of claim order randomly.

The claiming thing I am uncertain on.

The fact that, like, barely anyone acknowledged it is weird.

[SpaceAnemone]

SA, did you post the percentages for how likely it is for scum to be in the neighborhood?

For the SK+Maq scenario, there was a 55% chance of at least one scum in the neighbourhood at the start of the game, and a 45% chance of exactly one.
For the MU+Maq scenario, there was a 73% chance of at least one scum in the neighbourhood at the start of the game, and a 49% chance of exactly one.

Note that these are prior probabilities, meaning that we expect to have to update them as new information (e.g. flips) come into play. Also note that the chance of faust rolling scum is independent of the fact that he's in the neighbourhood. So it would be totally incorrect to conclude that since there was a >55% chance of there being a scum in the neighbourhood to start with, and now faust is the only possible non-scum left, that he will automatically have a >55% chance of being scum. That would be bad logic.

Also, can you post the current likelihood percentage for faust being scum IF there is scum in the neighborhood this game?

As faust says, it's 100%, because he's the only neighbour not to have flipped town already, so if there was a scum in the neighbourhood, it must have been him.

It is possible that some interaction with him being in the neighbourhood will have had an effect on game-play up to this point such that scum-neighbour!faust is more likely to have survived this long that town-neighbour!faust, thus breaking the independence, but that's all tied up in the part of gameplay that I can't model so well.

Also, faust had a point yesterday about the fact that we can be sure he's not the SK. That actually means that from the naive townie point of view, he's very slightly less likely to be scum on average than any of the rest of you. However, reads and gameplay ought to modulate that...

[EFHW]

What do we do now that the claiming thing didn't happen?

We should still force a claim. Scum Cops have too strong an incentive not to claim. Elim Garak is scummy for refusing to claim. We need to know who the Loved/Doublevoters are. Did anyone actually make an argument against claiming beyond "I'm opposed to anything faust suggests"?

What is the incentive for scum cops not to claim? I did in fact post a specific objection to claiming based on protecting the cops. You are saying the opposite here, so I would like to know your reasoning. 

Garak is almost certainly scum here. Town!Garak would have chosen lightning rod and would most likely have used it by now.

I can see a slight advantage to town of knowing who is Morn and Kai Winn.

[EFHW]

Ok, I am in favor of mass claim for the purpose of flushing out Garak. I am fine with faust running it.

[EFHW]

I was opposed to you being granted sole custody of claim order randomly.

The claiming thing I am uncertain on.

The fact that, like, barely anyone acknowledged it is weird.

Barely acknowledged what?

[EFHW]

Okay, a few questions for the group:

How does town proceed in a 3v2v4 scenario?

How does town proceed in a 2v1v6 scenario? (Obviously a much happier situation)

This is literally my first game with multiple baddie teams (yup, using the word team because saying scum sides doesn't feel right to me). And I don't know, (or care to deduce for myself, honestly) what the next steps should be to ensure town's survival.

What do we do now that the claiming thing didn't happen?

This post reads scummy to me. Multiball weakens the scumminess, but why is Eddie suddenly newb!helpless?

[SpaceAnemone]

As for the question of whether to claim, here's a list of the remaining players, and the remaining roles, with faust matched up as the remaining Ferengi.

2. UmbrageOfSnow
3. EFHW
7. WestCoastDidds
8. SpaceAnemone
10. MiX
11. faust -- Quark, not SK
12. ashersky
16. Uncleeurope
17. raerae

Chief Miles O'Brien -- mirror universe cop
Lt. Cmdr. Worf -- maquis cop
Lt. Jadzia Dax / Lt. Ezri Dax -- 1-shot deathproof
Elim Garak, a simple tailor -- 1-shot bus driver OR 1-shot lightning rod (his choice)
Vedek Antos Bariel -- Universal Backup (now known to be 1-shot vig or Roleblocker)
Captain Kasidy Yates -- 1-shot commuter
Morn - loved (stops working when he can’t be lynched without self-voting)
Kai Winn - 1-shot double voter (can't be concealed)


O'Brien is likely not to be useful since we may well not have MU. Worf seems pretty vital.

I'm curious about the fact that faust has been pushing the idea that we need to know who Morn and Kai Winn are, but not Dax, who also messes with town's ability to lynch effectively.

[EFHW]

*Multiball weakens the scumminess because even scum should feel like they have things to keep them busy, unlike in typical games, where they have to pretend to scumhunt.

[EFHW]

Good point about Dax.

[EFHW]

Shraeye was Bariel.

[EFHW]

I get a 47% a priori chance that there were three town in the neighborhood.  Sound right to you?

[EFHW]

For sk/Maquis. Only 29% for MU/Maquis.

In addition to no nk's being MU, the MU cop has come up empty 3 times. There could be overlap, of course, but the chances are likely less than 33% that we have MU.

[raerae]

I'm not averse to claiming but what are we going to do with that information once it's out? Say Ash is Worf, do we lunch him on the spot? It feels weird to just have that information with no contingency plan.

[EFHW]

Make that 45% and 27%.

[SpaceAnemone]

Shraeye was Bariel.

Oops! Sorry :-(

In my defense, if I weren't so fuzzy-headed, I'd be at the anti-Brexit march in London, rather than posting on here at all.

Feel free to fix my list :-)

[EFHW]

I'm not averse to claiming but what are we going to do with that information once it's out? Say Ash is Worf, do we lunch him on the spot? It feels weird to just have that information with no contingency plan.

Why would you lynch Worf at all? If you mean Garak, then I'd say yes, lynch them.

[raerae]

I'm not averse to claiming but what are we going to do with that information once it's out? Say Ash is Worf, do we lunch him on the spot? It feels weird to just have that information with no contingency plan.

Why would you lynch Worf at all? If you mean Garak, then I'd say yes, lynch them.

I was just pulling names out, not making suggestions.

[EFHW]

I'm not averse to claiming but what are we going to do with that information once it's out? Say Ash is Worf, do we lunch him on the spot? It feels weird to just have that information with no contingency plan.

Why would you lynch Worf at all? If you mean Garak, then I'd say yes, lynch them.

I was just pulling names out, not making suggestions.

I want to do the claim with the purpose of lynching Garak.

[raerae]

So is the mass claim necessary? Couldn't that person come forward with their best reason for why they haven't used the lightening rod power yet then we decide if they're lying or not?

Again, I'm cool with claiming but want to understand next steps.

[SpaceAnemone]

Make that 45% and 27%.

Yeah, those I agree with. Note that they're precisely 100%-x, where x is either of the two percentage chances I posted of there being at least one scum in the group in either scenario.

[EFHW]

So is the mass claim necessary? Couldn't that person come forward with their best reason for why they haven't used the lightening rod power yet then we decide if they're lying or not?

Again, I'm cool with claiming but want to understand next steps.

Sure,  but they haven't.

[EFHW]

Make that 45% and 27%.

Yeah, those I agree with. Note that they're precisely 100%-x, where x is either of the two percentage chances I posted of there being at least one scum in the group in either scenario.

Look at that! I considered it but wasn't sure.

[raerae]

So is the mass claim necessary? Couldn't that person come forward with their best reason for why they haven't used the lightening rod power yet then we decide if they're lying or not?

Again, I'm cool with claiming but want to understand next steps.

Sure,  but they haven't.

Fair enough. You want to set the claim order?

[EFHW]

Ok, but people can reasonably object to my being the one to do it. I would suggest

UoS
ashersky
MiX
Didds
raerae
Space
EFHW

But we could also consider stopping if we find Garak early.

[MiX]

So is the mass claim necessary? Couldn't that person come forward with their best reason for why they haven't used the lightening rod power yet then we decide if they're lying or not?

Again, I'm cool with claiming but want to understand next steps.

Sure,  but they haven't.

Fair enough. You want to set the claim order?

The only person that should set any claim order is faust or raerae. Or me, but I doubt anyone will agree to that.

Garak is almost certainly scum here. Town!Garak would have chosen lightning rod and would most likely have used it by now.

Why would town!Garak have used lightning rod? Genually confused. Although I do agree Garak seems like scum, there's also one other possibility (well, two, if you think town would've used rod) that you're missing. But I'm still down for a Garak claim. Who hasn't talked about it yet?

PPE 1: Swap yourself with raerae and it's not the worst order...

[raerae]

So is the mass claim necessary? Couldn't that person come forward with their best reason for why they haven't used the lightening rod power yet then we decide if they're lying or not?

Again, I'm cool with claiming but want to understand next steps.

Sure,  but they haven't.

Fair enough. You want to set the claim order?

The only person that should set any claim order is faust or raerae. Or me, but I doubt anyone will agree to that.

Garak is almost certainly scum here. Town!Garak would have chosen lightning rod and would most likely have used it by now.

Why would town!Garak have used lightning rod? Genually confused. Although I do agree Garak seems like scum, there's also one other possibility (well, two, if you think town would've used rod) that you're missing. But I'm still down for a Garak claim. Who hasn't talked about it yet?

PPE 1: Swap yourself with raerae and it's not the worst order...

I outsourced to EFHW, I'm cool with the order.

[ashersky]

I think EFHW’s think is off. “Town LR should have LRed by now” is a faulty assumption.  I’d say town!garek waits for a cop claim then uses the bus as a doctor. That’s the much townier use, and I’d berate any townie who popped an LR instead.

Doesn’t make me think EFHW is scum though.

As for claiming, it’s not a good idea unless there are useful results. Like, a cop with a guilty, or arguably three living not guilties. Since role and alignment have no connection, a claim parade detracts from scum hunting, which is what scum wants. I’d have been pushing mass claim for quite awhile as scum.

Due to that, SA seems townier than before, Faust, MiX, and EFHW scummier.

[EFHW]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

[ashersky]

SA, did you post the percentages for how likely it is for scum to be in the neighborhood?

For the SK+Maq scenario, there was a 55% chance of at least one scum in the neighbourhood at the start of the game, and a 45% chance of exactly one.
For the MU+Maq scenario, there was a 73% chance of at least one scum in the neighbourhood at the start of the game, and a 49% chance of exactly one.

Note that these are prior probabilities, meaning that we expect to have to update them as new information (e.g. flips) come into play. Also note that the chance of faust rolling scum is independent of the fact that he's in the neighbourhood. So it would be totally incorrect to conclude that since there was a >55% chance of there being a scum in the neighbourhood to start with, and now faust is the only possible non-scum left, that he will automatically have a >55% chance of being scum. That would be bad logic.

Also, can you post the current likelihood percentage for faust being scum IF there is scum in the neighborhood this game?

As faust says, it's 100%, because he's the only neighbour not to have flipped town already, so if there was a scum in the neighbourhood, it must have been him.

It is possible that some interaction with him being in the neighbourhood will have had an effect on game-play up to this point such that scum-neighbour!faust is more likely to have survived this long that town-neighbour!faust, thus breaking the independence, but that's all tied up in the part of gameplay that I can't model so well.

Also, faust had a point yesterday about the fact that we can be sure he's not the SK. That actually means that from the naive townie point of view, he's very slightly less likely to be scum on average than any of the rest of you. However, reads and gameplay ought to modulate that...

The reason I hate probability is that it appears to mess with reality.

You are basically telling me that even if faust rolled scum this game, the chances he rolled scum this game went down, even if he in actuality rolled scum.

I would like to believe that if faust rolled scum this game, the chance that he rolled scum is 100%. But if he rolled scum this game, then ended up in the neighborhood, then other members of the neighborhood flipped town, that 100% chance that he rolled scum went down.

If he rolled scum, he rolled scum. Flips by other players don’t change that. Except in probability explanations. When discussing probability, facts (like actually rolling scum, in this scenario) don’t count.

If you have an easy to understand way to explain to me how a player with a scum alignment has a less than 100% chance of being scum, I would love to hear it. It took a few years, but someone on f.ds finally explained Monty Hall to me, so I assume this one is also doable.  Because right now this is the equivalent of looking at my hand, counting five fingers, then having you tell me my chances of having five fingers is actually less than 100% even though I just counted.

[SpaceAnemone]

Ok, but people can reasonably object to my being the one to do it. I would suggest

UoS
ashersky
MiX
Didds
raerae
Space
EFHW

But we could also consider stopping if we find Garak early.

I did briefly get really confused why Eddie was missing, and went to check whether he'd died. Which is silly, because clearly the mistake I made earlier with the roles was taking his role out of the list because it had already been claimed. In case it's useful, the correct list of seven unclaimed roles to match those seven players should (I hope!) be:

Chief Miles O'Brien -- mirror universe cop
Lt. Cmdr. Worf -- maquis cop
Lt. Jadzia Dax / Lt. Ezri Dax -- 1-shot deathproof
Elim Garak, a simple tailor -- 1-shot bus driver OR 1-shot lightning rod (his choice)
Captain Kasidy Yates -- 1-shot commuter
Morn -- loved (stops working when he can’t be lynched without self-voting)
Kai Winn -- 1-shot double voter (can't be concealed)

[ashersky]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

How pray tell would protecting a cop render them useless?  Bus drivers are roleblockers.

[SpaceAnemone]

The reason I hate probability is that it appears to mess with reality.

Note really.. it just doesn't magically give you the numbers you want :-)

You are basically telling me that even if faust rolled scum this game, the chances he rolled scum this game went down, even if he in actuality rolled scum.

Also not true.. I was careful to say that the initial numbers were likelihoods at the start of the game, and the things we know now interact with that.

I would like to believe that if faust rolled scum this game, the chance that he rolled scum is 100%.

Yes, to faust, if he's scum, he's 100% scum. To the rest of us, we can't be sure, so we use these probabilities to express our degree of belief. So if there are 17 other players in the game, my belief that faust is scum is n/17, for an n-scum setup, and something slightly more complicated in setups that have different probabilities of having different numbers of scum.

As for the rest:

It took a few years, but someone on f.ds finally explained Monty Hall to me, so I assume this one is also doable.

I agree it's perfectly doable, but if it takes a few years, let's not prioritise it over lynching scum right now :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

How pray tell would protecting a cop render them useless?  Bus drivers are roleblockers.

Isn't the cop's target also drawn to the LR, without the cop necessarily knowing about it?

[faust]

What do we do now that the claiming thing didn't happen?

We should still force a claim. Scum Cops have too strong an incentive not to claim. Elim Garak is scummy for refusing to claim. We need to know who the Loved/Doublevoters are. Did anyone actually make an argument against claiming beyond "I'm opposed to anything faust suggests"?

What is the incentive for scum cops not to claim? I did in fact post a specific objection to claiming based on protecting the cops. You are saying the opposite here, so I would like to know your reasoning. 

Well if a scum Cop claims, they're going to get NKed by the other scum. Losing a member of their team is much worse for scum than it would be for town.

[EFHW]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

How pray tell would protecting a cop render them useless?  Bus drivers are roleblockers.

Lightning rod would redirect their investigation from their target to the LR. Bus driving could work, at the risk of hitting someone else valuable like town!Morn or the other cop.

[EFHW]

What do we do now that the claiming thing didn't happen?

We should still force a claim. Scum Cops have too strong an incentive not to claim. Elim Garak is scummy for refusing to claim. We need to know who the Loved/Doublevoters are. Did anyone actually make an argument against claiming beyond "I'm opposed to anything faust suggests"?

What is the incentive for scum cops not to claim? I did in fact post a specific objection to claiming based on protecting the cops. You are saying the opposite here, so I would like to know your reasoning. 

Well if a scum Cop claims, they're going to get NKed by the other scum. Losing a member of their team is much worse for scum than it would be for town.

Ok

[faust]

I'm curious about the fact that faust has been pushing the idea that we need to know who Morn and Kai Winn are, but not Dax, who also messes with town's ability to lynch effectively.

Well Dax has some value unclaimed as they might soak up a scum NK, so it's less clear that we want to out them.

[EFHW]

I'm curious about the fact that faust has been pushing the idea that we need to know who Morn and Kai Winn are, but not Dax, who also messes with town's ability to lynch effectively.

Well Dax has some value unclaimed as they might soak up a scum NK, so it's less clear that we want to out them.

This is another reason to stop when we hit Garak. Are you ok with the claim order?

[faust]

I'm curious about the fact that faust has been pushing the idea that we need to know who Morn and Kai Winn are, but not Dax, who also messes with town's ability to lynch effectively.

Well Dax has some value unclaimed as they might soak up a scum NK, so it's less clear that we want to out them.

This is another reason to stop when we hit Garak. Are you ok with the claim order?

I'm fine though I think it may be best to just give everyone a chance to post and say whether they are Garak before we start.

[MiX]

I'm curious about the fact that faust has been pushing the idea that we need to know who Morn and Kai Winn are, but not Dax, who also messes with town's ability to lynch effectively.

Well Dax has some value unclaimed as they might soak up a scum NK, so it's less clear that we want to out them.

This is another reason to stop when we hit Garak. Are you ok with the claim order?

I'm fine though I think it may be best to just give everyone a chance to post and say whether they are Garak before we start.

Is there a point to massclaim after this? All non-cop roles are useless which means we'll just out the cops. Do we want that?

[raerae]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

I'm curious, why us and how would this help?

You think it's going to hurt to give your opinions on this matter?

I don't have a strong feeling at all to help answer that question. I'm noticing you asked the other three female players.

That didn't have anything to do with who I asked, for whatever that's worth.

Vote: UoS

Wait, is it because UoS is the person I haven't expressed a read on/one of the three I mentioned above?  And, if so, do you think he's my partner?  And, if so, doesn't that mean you don't actually think we (you and I) are town v town?

@MiX, care to comment?

[Glooble]

Vote Count 4.2


Chief O'Brien walks into the infirmary, sighs deeply, and taps his combadge.

"O'Brien to Worf. I've uploaded all the files from the Defiant, and I've installed the holoemitters from Quark's second holosuite. He said to tell you he was filing a complaint with Admiral Ross."

"The Ferengi can file all the complaints he wants," says Worf. "We need a doctor."

O'Brien presses a few buttons on the console, and a balding man appears.

"Please state the nature of the medical emergancy," he says.

"Nothing yet," says  O'Brien, "Just making sure everything's online."

Vote count:

MiX (1): raerae
Not voting (: SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, EFHW, UncleEurope, ashersky, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch most players. Day 4 begins now and will end at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Friday,  March 29th.

[Uncleeurope]

Okay, a few questions for the group:

How does town proceed in a 3v2v4 scenario?

How does town proceed in a 2v1v6 scenario? (Obviously a much happier situation)

This is literally my first game with multiple baddie teams (yup, using the word team because saying scum sides doesn't feel right to me). And I don't know, (or care to deduce for myself, honestly) what the next steps should be to ensure town's survival.

What do we do now that the claiming thing didn't happen?

This post reads scummy to me. Multiball weakens the scumminess, but why is Eddie suddenly newb!helpless?

Apathy.

And I was this same was in my town games and was definitely not this in my scum one.

But I know that...

Dun DUN DUUUUNNNNN

[MiX]

Vote: UoS

Wait, is it because UoS is the person I haven't expressed a read on/one of the three I mentioned above?  And, if so, do you think he's my partner?  And, if so, doesn't that mean you don't actually think we (you and I) are town v town?

@MiX, care to comment?

It is indeed because UoS was the only person you hadn't talked about this day. No, of course I don't believe he's your partner, as I believe you are town, as I've previously said. To be honest, it's weird that you think that I would be scumreading you after I said I'm townreading you...

Are we doing the Garak claim? Are we not doing the Garak claim? I am honestly confused at this point. UoS' first on EFHW's list, right? Should we wait for him?

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: MiX

Whew, almost didn't feel like myself not having voted for anyone yet. Crisis averted.

[raerae]

Vote: UoS

Wait, is it because UoS is the person I haven't expressed a read on/one of the three I mentioned above?  And, if so, do you think he's my partner?  And, if so, doesn't that mean you don't actually think we (you and I) are town v town?

@MiX, care to comment?

It is indeed because UoS was the only person you hadn't talked about this day. No, of course I don't believe he's your partner, as I believe you are town, as I've previously said. To be honest, it's weird that you think that I would be scumreading you after I said I'm townreading you...

Are we doing the Garak claim? Are we not doing the Garak claim? I am honestly confused at this point. UoS' first on EFHW's list, right? Should we wait for him?

But how does me not discussing him mean he's scum? The only way that works is if you think I'm scum.

[MiX]

Vote: UoS

Wait, is it because UoS is the person I haven't expressed a read on/one of the three I mentioned above?  And, if so, do you think he's my partner?  And, if so, doesn't that mean you don't actually think we (you and I) are town v town?

@MiX, care to comment?

It is indeed because UoS was the only person you hadn't talked about this day. No, of course I don't believe he's your partner, as I believe you are town, as I've previously said. To be honest, it's weird that you think that I would be scumreading you after I said I'm townreading you...

Are we doing the Garak claim? Are we not doing the Garak claim? I am honestly confused at this point. UoS' first on EFHW's list, right? Should we wait for him?

But how does me not discussing him mean he's scum? The only way that works is if you think I'm scum.

PR things, not sure I should say it...it's wrong, and you told me it was wrong, but at the time I believed it. Now that I think about it, it was a bit foolish, but hey it got this interaction so it wasn't exactly the worst.

Vote: MiX

Whew, almost didn't feel like myself not having voted for anyone yet. Crisis averted.

Pfft.

Vote: EFHW, I think we should all adress the elephant in the room that says that the E wagon in D1 had at least 1 scum and the only player who hasn't flipped is EFHW. Sadly I didn't actually get to do an EFHW reread...or any rereads. I hope I'll be more useful this weekend, I got lazy today but maybe I won't tomorrow.

[Uncleeurope]

And WCD, right?

[Uncleeurope]

And WCD, right?

AKA Wasn't WCD on that e Wagon in question?

[MiX]

And WCD, right?

AKA Wasn't WCD on that e Wagon in question?

Indeed, which is why I didn't vote instantly. But Didds jumped too early for it to matter, since we know there was no partner in it, it doesn't make a lot of sense...I also have a hunch for Didds' partner, if she is indeed scum, unlike EFHW, which I know less. Regardless this is probably the most important thing to talk about untill I (we) do some NK analysis.

[Uncleeurope]

You just said that the only person on the wagon who hasn’t flipped is EFHW, but WCD was on it too.

Are you WCD’s partner? Is that what your hunch is?

[MiX]

You just said that the only person on the wagon who hasn’t flipped is EFHW, but WCD was on it too.

Are you WCD’s partner? Is that what your hunch is?

What did I just say?? Did you happen to read my post? I know Didds was there, I just don't think she was there long enough to matter for this. My hunch is actually that you're coaching her. It's incredibly faint and I didn't get around to reread your interactions, but it's what my gut tells me...then again, my gut got destroyed with E, so maybe I'm wrong. In fact I think I'm wrong because on the other hand I think Didds is town. But anyway there's your answer.

[raerae]

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

Can't forget about this commuter fishing trip he took.

Can we put off claiming and just lynch MiX today?

[MiX]

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

Can't forget about this commuter fishing trip he took.

Can we put off claiming and just lynch MiX today?

What? I'm confused. What does this have to do with anything?

I should stop replying to everything...

[EFHW]

Vote: EFHW, I think we should all adress the elephant in the room that says that the E wagon in D1 had at least 1 scum and the only player who hasn't flipped is EFHW. Sadly I didn't actually get to do an EFHW reread...or any rereads. I hope I'll be more useful this weekend, I got lazy today but maybe I won't tomorrow.

How is that an elephant? It's been talked to death. I find it a very weak argument or I'd be voting Didds right now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Why is EFHW in charge of anything?

Why would we lynch Garak? If I am Garak, I'd have held on to my shot and used it as Bus Driver, early lightning rod is anti-town, it ruins the cop results at the benefit of soaking one kill.

There are 2 players scum don't want to shoot, and if doublevoter isn't scum they're a high priority target, along with the relevant cop.

[Uncleeurope]

No matter who is in charge I am going to be upset about it in all honestly.

[MiX]

Vote: EFHW, I think we should all adress the elephant in the room that says that the E wagon in D1 had at least 1 scum and the only player who hasn't flipped is EFHW. Sadly I didn't actually get to do an EFHW reread...or any rereads. I hope I'll be more useful this weekend, I got lazy today but maybe I won't tomorrow.

How is that an elephant? It's been talked to death. I find it a very weak argument or I'd be voting Didds right now.

It's much more relevant now that E flipped town, wouldn't you agree? And of course you don't believe it, from your perspective it would only implicate Didds and I agree that it's a weak implication. I would love to see other's opinions on it.

Why is EFHW in charge of anything?

Why would we lynch Garak? If I am Garak, I'd have held on to my shot and used it as Bus Driver, early lightning rod is anti-town, it ruins the cop results at the benefit of soaking one kill.

There are 2 players scum don't want to shoot, and if doublevoter isn't scum they're a high priority target, along with the relevant cop.

EFHW's in charge because raerae trusts EFHW and raerae is town. Weak, I know, but...

What's your opinion on Garak claiming?

No matter who is in charge I am going to be upset about it in all honestly.

Upset about what? The claims? Do you disagree with Garak claiming?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This probability talk is stupid, the odds of faust being scum neighbor are exactly the odds of faust being scum. Neighborhood is irrelevant.

[raerae]

Why is EFHW in charge of anything?

Why would we lynch Garak? If I am Garak, I'd have held on to my shot and used it as Bus Driver, early lightning rod is anti-town, it ruins the cop results at the benefit of soaking one kill.

There are 2 players scum don't want to shoot, and if doublevoter isn't scum they're a high priority target, along with the relevant cop.

EFHW is as good as anybody when nobody is universally considered conf!town, don't you think?  And she invited anybody to discuss the proposed claim order.

Say we don't claim, how do you suggest moving forward today?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

By lynching who we think is most likely to be scum? I'm seeing downsides to claiming and not a lot of upside. Why do you think we need to claim to move forward?

And I'm torn between voting EFHW and MiX right now, so yeah not really liking them being in charge. I'd be happier with faust, at least he's not SK because of the neighborhood info thing.

So no, she's not as good as anybody. It's weirder how everyone, particularly MiX, is suddenly so in love with deferring judgement to people.

[MiX]

This probability talk is stupid, the odds of faust being scum neighbor are exactly the odds of faust being scum. Neighborhood is irrelevant.

Wrong: faust can't be SK, so he's less likely to be scum. It's very minor, but true.

Why is EFHW in charge of anything?

Why would we lynch Garak? If I am Garak, I'd have held on to my shot and used it as Bus Driver, early lightning rod is anti-town, it ruins the cop results at the benefit of soaking one kill.

There are 2 players scum don't want to shoot, and if doublevoter isn't scum they're a high priority target, along with the relevant cop.

EFHW is as good as anybody when nobody is universally considered conf!town, don't you think?  And she invited anybody to discuss the proposed claim order.

Say we don't claim, how do you suggest moving forward today?

No, EFHW is scum. Unless you believe scum wouldn't hop on the D1 E wagon? But claim order doesn't matter because I think we only need Garak to claim.

By lynching who we think is most likely to be scum? I'm seeing downsides to claiming and not a lot of upside. Why do you think we need to claim to move forward?

And I'm torn between voting EFHW and MiX right now, so yeah not really liking them being in charge. I'd be happier with faust, at least he's not SK because of the neighborhood info thing.

So no, she's not as good as anybody. It's weirder how everyone, particularly MiX, is suddenly so in love with deferring judgement to people.

Do you believe one of (EFHW, MiX) is scum beyond a shadow of doubt?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also I've always found it kind of gross to set a claim order with yourself last when you're not a consensus townread. If we're going to claim, why not popcorn?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This probability talk is stupid, the odds of faust being scum neighbor are exactly the odds of faust being scum. Neighborhood is irrelevant.

Wrong: faust can't be SK, so he's less likely to be scum. It's very minor, but true.

Wrong. This has nothing to do with the prior likelihood of the neighborhood containing scum, which is what I was complaining about. There was a lot of math and fury signifying nothing.

By lynching who we think is most likely to be scum? I'm seeing downsides to claiming and not a lot of upside. Why do you think we need to claim to move forward?

And I'm torn between voting EFHW and MiX right now, so yeah not really liking them being in charge. I'd be happier with faust, at least he's not SK because of the neighborhood info thing.

So no, she's not as good as anybody. It's weirder how everyone, particularly MiX, is suddenly so in love with deferring judgement to people.

Do you believe one of (EFHW, MiX) is scum beyond a shadow of doubt?

Why do you think I would believe this?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Anyway, I have to run but if a majority really wants to claim, I'll be willing to claim first when I get back in a few hours. But then we popcorn. I won't hold the town hostage to my saying this is a bad idea, but really the arguments seem to be mostly a lot of yelling and maybe some misunderstanding of how bus drivers work.

Also, seriously raerae, why do we need to claim to move the day forward? Like we've had other days in the game where we lynched people without massclaiming haven't we?

[MiX]

By lynching who we think is most likely to be scum? I'm seeing downsides to claiming and not a lot of upside. Why do you think we need to claim to move forward?

And I'm torn between voting EFHW and MiX right now, so yeah not really liking them being in charge. I'd be happier with faust, at least he's not SK because of the neighborhood info thing.

So no, she's not as good as anybody. It's weirder how everyone, particularly MiX, is suddenly so in love with deferring judgement to people.

Do you believe one of (EFHW, MiX) is scum beyond a shadow of doubt?

Why do you think I would believe this?

If you're torn between voting for 2 people, surely you think they're scum, correct?

[faust]

Also, seriously raerae, why do we need to claim to move the day forward? Like we've had other days in the game where we lynched people without massclaiming haven't we?

Yep. Those have gone splendidly.

[raerae]

By lynching who we think is most likely to be scum? I'm seeing downsides to claiming and not a lot of upside. Why do you think we need to claim to move forward?

And I'm torn between voting EFHW and MiX right now, so yeah not really liking them being in charge. I'd be happier with faust, at least he's not SK because of the neighborhood info thing.

So no, she's not as good as anybody. It's weirder how everyone, particularly MiX, is suddenly so in love with deferring judgement to people.

I'm super game to just lunch MiX but it seemed like most people were game for claiming until Ash swooped in and said it was anti-town.  Re: claiming order, I LOVE the idea of popcorn and am not sure why I've never seen that. If we claim I absolutely vote for popcorn.  What's the argument for EFHW other than vote analysis? Because I'm not buying the whole "there had to be scum on a D1 wagon" arguments, especially not after the last game.

[Uncleeurope]

Is there any merit to everyone posting reads of everyone else?

[raerae]

Is there any merit to everyone posting reads of everyone else?

Oh somebody will argue against it but I'm always down for reads.

[EFHW]

Remind me how popcorn works?

I mostly want to hear from Garak, perfectly happy to forgo other claiming.

[SpaceAnemone]

I would also like a definition of popcorn, please!

[raerae]

Did none of you have terrible English teachers who forced you to read paragraphs out loud then say, "Popcorn, Jessica!" Then poor Jessica would be forced to read a paragraph to the class and popcorn some other sad soul.  Good gravy, I envy your lives.

[Uncleeurope]

Is the plan to popcorn players or roles?

[raerae]

Is the plan to popcorn players or roles?

Roles, says I. But we can still just lunch MiX and call it a day.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi folks!

I’m just checking in...I don’t have time to really catch up or engage yet. The conference soldiers on. And Portland is awesome. I’ll be back on Monday.

I don’t have an opinion about claiming, but I don’t want to hold y’all up if you move forward on that. I’m not Garak.

I like popcorn and fausts’s jokes.

[MiX]

By lynching who we think is most likely to be scum? I'm seeing downsides to claiming and not a lot of upside. Why do you think we need to claim to move forward?

And I'm torn between voting EFHW and MiX right now, so yeah not really liking them being in charge. I'd be happier with faust, at least he's not SK because of the neighborhood info thing.

So no, she's not as good as anybody. It's weirder how everyone, particularly MiX, is suddenly so in love with deferring judgement to people.

I'm super game to just lunch MiX but it seemed like most people were game for claiming until Ash swooped in and said it was anti-town.  Re: claiming order, I LOVE the idea of popcorn and am not sure why I've never seen that. If we claim I absolutely vote for popcorn.  What's the argument for EFHW other than vote analysis? Because I'm not buying the whole "there had to be scum on a D1 wagon" arguments, especially not after the last game.

You're all fools and forgot that arishipshape was clearly on my wagon. This is actually why I tweaked who was in Robz' wagon for my D1 VCA, I learned from that game.

Is there any merit to everyone posting reads of everyone else?

Guess not...but I started the day thinking I shouldn't talk about reads so now I'm excited.

Is the plan to popcorn players or roles?

Roles, says I. But we can still just lunch MiX and call it a day.

Do you want to do a massclaim? If so, what role would you start with? And why, I believe we just need Garak's claim, if any. Am I scum to you beyond a shadow of a doubt?

PPE 1: Er, okay, now we should definitely get Garak out...

[raerae]

By lynching who we think is most likely to be scum? I'm seeing downsides to claiming and not a lot of upside. Why do you think we need to claim to move forward?

And I'm torn between voting EFHW and MiX right now, so yeah not really liking them being in charge. I'd be happier with faust, at least he's not SK because of the neighborhood info thing.

So no, she's not as good as anybody. It's weirder how everyone, particularly MiX, is suddenly so in love with deferring judgement to people.

I'm super game to just lunch MiX but it seemed like most people were game for claiming until Ash swooped in and said it was anti-town.  Re: claiming order, I LOVE the idea of popcorn and am not sure why I've never seen that. If we claim I absolutely vote for popcorn.  What's the argument for EFHW other than vote analysis? Because I'm not buying the whole "there had to be scum on a D1 wagon" arguments, especially not after the last game.

You're all fools and forgot that arishipshape was clearly on my wagon. This is actually why I tweaked who was in Robz' wagon for my D1 VCA, I learned from that game.

Don't worry, fam, I gotchu. This is actually who lynched you D1, all town. Every single one of 'em. So, let's try again with that EFHW case?

Vote Count 1.final
"There is nothing so strange and so unbelievable that it has not been said by one philosopher or another." — René Descartes

MiX (7): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight, EFHW, Faust
EFHW (2): Uncleeurope, MiX
raerae (2): Joseph2302, DatSwan
mail-mi (1): silverspawn

Not Voting (1): Arishipshape

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Space

[MiX]

Don't worry, fam, I gotchu. This is actually who lynched you D1, all town. Every single one of 'em. So, let's try again with that EFHW case?

Vote Count 1.final
"There is nothing so strange and so unbelievable that it has not been said by one philosopher or another." — René Descartes

MiX (7): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight, EFHW, Faust
EFHW (2): Uncleeurope, MiX
raerae (2): Joseph2302, DatSwan
mail-mi (1): silverspawn

Not Voting (1): Arishipshape

That's because you failed to see that my lynch was guaranteed back when I had 6 votes, one of which was ari! Don't stick to the final vote count blindly, it misleads you, intermediate ones are better. Although I don't think that's the case for D2+, it seems to be true for D1. This only further proves that EFHW is scum.

Vote: Space

Why?

[raerae]

Don't worry, fam, I gotchu. This is actually who lynched you D1, all town. Every single one of 'em. So, let's try again with that EFHW case?

Vote Count 1.final
"There is nothing so strange and so unbelievable that it has not been said by one philosopher or another." — René Descartes

MiX (7): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight, EFHW, Faust
EFHW (2): Uncleeurope, MiX
raerae (2): Joseph2302, DatSwan
mail-mi (1): silverspawn

Not Voting (1): Arishipshape

That's because you failed to see that my lynch was guaranteed back when I had 6 votes, one of which was ari! Don't stick to the final vote count blindly, it misleads you, intermediate ones are better. Although I don't think that's the case for D2+, it seems to be true for D1. This only further proves that EFHW is scum.

Vote: Space

Why?

You said Didds gets a pass because she got off the e wagon. But Ari got off your wagon. But EFHW is scum because she stayed on the wagon.  A+pickle=green donkey, right?

Come on, people, join me in lynching a single scum this game, please.

[MiX]

Don't worry, fam, I gotchu. This is actually who lynched you D1, all town. Every single one of 'em. So, let's try again with that EFHW case?

Vote Count 1.final
"There is nothing so strange and so unbelievable that it has not been said by one philosopher or another." — René Descartes

MiX (7): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight, EFHW, Faust
EFHW (2): Uncleeurope, MiX
raerae (2): Joseph2302, DatSwan
mail-mi (1): silverspawn

Not Voting (1): Arishipshape

That's because you failed to see that my lynch was guaranteed back when I had 6 votes, one of which was ari! Don't stick to the final vote count blindly, it misleads you, intermediate ones are better. Although I don't think that's the case for D2+, it seems to be true for D1. This only further proves that EFHW is scum.

You said Didds gets a pass because she got off the e wagon. But Ari got off your wagon. But EFHW is scum because she stayed on the wagon.  A+pickle=green donkey, right?

Come on, people, join me in lynching a single scum this game, please.

You're just trying to paint my case as scummy so you can lynch me. Are you seriously thinking about what I'm saying or just dismissing it because I'm obv!scum? Think about it, don't let your bias cloud your judgement.

Ari jumped ship in a completely different scenarion:

1 - The lynch was already guaranteed so there was literally no risk

2 - It was very late in the day and he didn't vote elsewhere

3 - He was a new player, but I suppose that applies to Didds too

Essencially, arishipshape stayed long enough for his vote to matter and then left whereas Didds went there and immediatly left, adding literally zero pressure. I don't see why she would be a part of any analysis over the E wagon, the other 5 stayed much longer.

[raerae]

Don't worry, fam, I gotchu. This is actually who lynched you D1, all town. Every single one of 'em. So, let's try again with that EFHW case?

Vote Count 1.final
"There is nothing so strange and so unbelievable that it has not been said by one philosopher or another." — René Descartes

MiX (7): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight, EFHW, Faust
EFHW (2): Uncleeurope, MiX
raerae (2): Joseph2302, DatSwan
mail-mi (1): silverspawn

Not Voting (1): Arishipshape

That's because you failed to see that my lynch was guaranteed back when I had 6 votes, one of which was ari! Don't stick to the final vote count blindly, it misleads you, intermediate ones are better. Although I don't think that's the case for D2+, it seems to be true for D1. This only further proves that EFHW is scum.

You said Didds gets a pass because she got off the e wagon. But Ari got off your wagon. But EFHW is scum because she stayed on the wagon.  A+pickle=green donkey, right?

Come on, people, join me in lynching a single scum this game, please.

You're just trying to paint my case as scummy so you can lynch me. Are you seriously thinking about what I'm saying or just dismissing it because I'm obv!scum? Think about it, don't let your bias cloud your judgement.

Ari jumped ship in a completely different scenarion:

1 - The lynch was already guaranteed so there was literally no risk

2 - It was very late in the day and he didn't vote elsewhere

3 - He was a new player, but I suppose that applies to Didds too

Essencially, arishipshape stayed long enough for his vote to matter and then left whereas Didds went there and immediatly left, adding literally zero pressure. I don't see why she would be a part of any analysis over the E wagon, the other 5 stayed much longer.

Well, you and I are going to disagree on that.  Got anything else on her?  I mean, it's D4, surely there's something else.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Do you believe one of (EFHW, MiX) is scum beyond a shadow of doubt?

What were you hoping to learn by asking me this?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I would also like a definition of popcorn, please!

I claim, I say "Okay, Space claims next" then you claim and say "MiX claims next," MiX claims and says "EFHW claims next" etc. So instead of a lynch order laid out all in advance, each player nominates the next. It almost always gives scum some control of the lynch order, but it keeps much of the order in the hands of town with no risk of it being entirely scum controlled. Good for when there's no player everyone trusts.

[ashersky]

Rae, when did I say lynching MiX was bad?  Never said that, no real issues with it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

And if we're doing this thing, we need to at least get the remaining cops to claim. Just by having some of us claim we drastically reduce the pool of players who could be the cops and up the odds of scum shooting them, so what utility we get out of the claim is unambiguous cop innocents for POE without giving scum the option to argue about/obfuscate crumbs. If we do half a mass-claim, cops are still probably dead, may as well get their results.

[ashersky]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

How pray tell would protecting a cop render them useless?  Bus drivers are roleblockers.

Lightning rod would redirect their investigation from their target to the LR. Bus driving could work, at the risk of hitting someone else valuable like town!Morn or the other cop.

That is correct. I actually didn’t see that you put LR there responding to me saying Garak should Bus. That’s quite the sleight of hand there.

You said Gafak is scummy for not LRing. I disagree and say they should not LR and should bus to protect cop. Then you respond to my direct response to you with a misdirect?  Why?

So, to clarify here: thank you for pointing out a fault in your own thinking and not mine.

[ashersky]

And if we're doing this thing, we need to at least get the remaining cops to claim. Just by having some of us claim we drastically reduce the pool of players who could be the cops and up the odds of scum shooting them, so what utility we get out of the claim is unambiguous cop innocents for POE without giving scum the option to argue about/obfuscate crumbs. If we do half a mass-claim, cops are still probably dead, may as well get their results.

I think it needs to be full mass claim or no claims (unless someone has a need).  Lynching based on rolled role is dumb. There is no scumhunting involved. The only exception to that is roles that affect lylo voting such as Hated.

[ashersky]

If Hated is going to matter, town Hated will claim in time to rectify it and scum Hated might not but will be in a pickle come endgame anyway.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also, seriously raerae, why do we need to claim to move the day forward? Like we've had other days in the game where we lynched people without massclaiming haven't we?

Yep. Those have gone splendidly.

I was townreading Awaclus and e, the problem is just that you guys keep ignoring me. How does claiming help unless I'm Kai Winn?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think it needs to be full mass claim or no claims (unless someone has a need).  Lynching based on rolled role is dumb. There is no scumhunting involved. The only exception to that is roles that affect lylo voting such as Hated.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I keep thinking there's some utility to keeping Dax and Yates unclaimed with the hope of one of them being NKed but once we have a few claims anyway the unambiguous cop results are probably worth more.

[SpaceAnemone]

Essencially, arishipshape stayed long enough for his vote to matter and then left whereas Didds went there and immediatly left, adding literally zero pressure. I don't see why she would be a part of any analysis over the E wagon, the other 5 stayed much longer.

I haven't followed the stuff about airshipshape because you seem to be talking about a different game I haven't read.

However, I do have numbers for this current game.

The at-least-4-votes-on-e wagon ran from #473 to #643, or 160 posts.

Within that, WCD was on the tail from #482 to #561, which is 79 posts, so more or less 50% of the wagon.

So I definitely don't think that's "literally zero pressure".. I just had a greater degree of certainty earlier in the game that it would end up being e or EFHW. As it is, EFHW's play so far in D4 seems towny enough. The fact that WCD is VLA makes it a little hard to do any direct comparison.

PPE 6+ because I got distracted.

[SpaceAnemone]

If Hated is going to matter, town Hated will claim in time to rectify it and scum Hated might not but will be in a pickle come endgame anyway.

Isn't Eddie the hated one? He claimed back in D1.

In the unclaimed camp, I think we have one loved person, one double-voter, and one deathproof person who might also mess with town lynches in various ways.

[raerae]

Rae, when did I say lynching MiX was bad?  Never said that, no real issues with it.

Let's do it! 

[SpaceAnemone]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

How pray tell would protecting a cop render them useless?  Bus drivers are roleblockers.

Lightning rod would redirect their investigation from their target to the LR. Bus driving could work, at the risk of hitting someone else valuable like town!Morn or the other cop.

That is correct. I actually didn’t see that you put LR there responding to me saying Garak should Bus. That’s quite the sleight of hand there.

You said Gafak is scummy for not LRing. I disagree and say they should not LR and should bus to protect cop. Then you respond to my direct response to you with a misdirect?  Why?

So, to clarify here: thank you for pointing out a fault in your own thinking and not mine.

Interesting.. I'd missed this subtlety when EFHW was arguing that Garak should claim, too.

Is it better for town!Garak to bus-drive, thus having a small chance of protecting an outed role by diverting one of two possible NKs, or to use LR and therefore probably save two other PRs from NKs, giving a likely net gain of townie? I guess Garak won't have known that both NKs would fall on townies so often instead of non-town factions hitting each other. I think it's not as clear-cut as what seemed to be presented in-thread earlier, but I also think it's not clear that Ash's suggestion of saving the shot for use as bus-driving is inherently better.

Having said that, I think that the discussion so far in D4 framing the lack of Garack-reveal as anti-town means a town!Garak should have felt a lot of pressure to claim.

[EFHW]

When does Garak choose? I assumed they had to choose at N0.

[EFHW]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

How pray tell would protecting a cop render them useless?  Bus drivers are roleblockers.

Lightning rod would redirect their investigation from their target to the LR. Bus driving could work, at the risk of hitting someone else valuable like town!Morn or the other cop.

That is correct. I actually didn’t see that you put LR there responding to me saying Garak should Bus. That’s quite the sleight of hand there.

You said Gafak is scummy for not LRing. I disagree and say they should not LR and should bus to protect cop. Then you respond to my direct response to you with a misdirect?  Why?

So, to clarify here: thank you for pointing out a fault in your own thinking and not mine.

I would apologize for misreading you if I wasn't so irked by the tone of your post.

[EFHW]

Dear mods, when does Garak choose between Lightning Rod and Bus Driver?

[EFHW]

And what is the downside of Town!Garak claiming? If they can convince us they are town, they can still do their thing tonight. I don't think most town!Garaks would let fear of being lynched keep them from claiming. Could be wrong.

[EFHW]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

[raerae]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

[EFHW]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

No, I'm SK reading him actually. Him or Eddie.

[raerae]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

No, I'm SK reading him actually. Him or Eddie.

So you don't believe there are two teams?  (sorry if you covered this in stats class, I just really can't follow that, math has always been intimidating and it's hard to rewire your brain, ya know?)

[EFHW]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

No, I'm SK reading him actually. Him or Eddie.

So you don't believe there are two teams?  (sorry if you covered this in stats class, I just really can't follow that, math has always been intimidating and it's hard to rewire your brain, ya know?)

It is technically still possible that there are two teams. My feeling, though, is that we have SK/Maquis.

[raerae]

Also, seriously raerae, why do we need to claim to move the day forward? Like we've had other days in the game where we lynched people without massclaiming haven't we?

Yep. Those have gone splendidly.

I was townreading Awaclus and e, the problem is just that you guys keep ignoring me. How does claiming help unless I'm Kai Winn?

Soooooo...how you feel about MiX?

[ashersky]

That town!LR plan doesn't work because it makes the cop useless, so no point in protecting them.

How pray tell would protecting a cop render them useless?  Bus drivers are roleblockers.

Lightning rod would redirect their investigation from their target to the LR. Bus driving could work, at the risk of hitting someone else valuable like town!Morn or the other cop.

That is correct. I actually didn’t see that you put LR there responding to me saying Garak should Bus. That’s quite the sleight of hand there.

You said Gafak is scummy for not LRing. I disagree and say they should not LR and should bus to protect cop. Then you respond to my direct response to you with a misdirect?  Why?

So, to clarify here: thank you for pointing out a fault in your own thinking and not mine.

Interesting.. I'd missed this subtlety when EFHW was arguing that Garak should claim, too.

Is it better for town!Garak to bus-drive, thus having a small chance of protecting an outed role by diverting one of two possible NKs, or to use LR and therefore probably save two other PRs from NKs, giving a likely net gain of townie? I guess Garak won't have known that both NKs would fall on townies so often instead of non-town factions hitting each other. I think it's not as clear-cut as what seemed to be presented in-thread earlier, but I also think it's not clear that Ash's suggestion of saving the shot for use as bus-driving is inherently better.

Having said that, I think that the discussion so far in D4 framing the lack of Garack-reveal as anti-town means a town!Garak should have felt a lot of pressure to claim.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness here.

It don’t think there is ever a perfectly right answer to these types of debates. I feel that bussing a claimed cop allows for one night of follow the cop, which is very strong. That other kills may fall on scum is a bonus.

As for pressure to claim, that’s going to depend on the player. Like, Faust or myself basically never feel pressure; a newer player might have cracked right away.

[ashersky]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

I don’t think even MiX is townreading MiX.

[Uncleeurope]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

I don’t think even MiX is townreading MiX.

Bahahaha

That’s a sig if I’ve ever seen one.

[Uncleeurope]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

No, I'm SK reading him actually. Him or Eddie.

We are playing fairly differently, interested in the connection there.

[raerae]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

I don’t think even MiX is townreading MiX.

Which begs the question of why his lynch has never gone through. 

[Uncleeurope]

Because it's MiX, and we are fresh out of a game where he did this exact stuff as town and got killed for it. (And he is an unlikely shraeye partner)

[ashersky]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

I don’t think even MiX is townreading MiX.

Which begs the question of why his lynch has never gone through.

I did not.

http://begthequestion.info/

[ashersky]

Because it's MiX, and we are fresh out of a game where he did this exact stuff as town and got killed for it. (And he is an unlikely shraeye partner)

This seems right, although I was unaware of any previous games.

I definitely would lynch MiX, his personal brand of scumminess just seems to supercede whatever alignment he got in his PM.

[faust]

I am townreading MiX.

[faust]

Also, seriously raerae, why do we need to claim to move the day forward? Like we've had other days in the game where we lynched people without massclaiming haven't we?

Yep. Those have gone splendidly.

I was townreading Awaclus and e, the problem is just that you guys keep ignoring me. How does claiming help unless I'm Kai Winn?

Can you point me to where you expressed those reads?

Claiming helps because a) Garak's choice of role is alignment-indicative b) knowing Cop results informs our decision c) I think there is a decent chance that Cops are scum, and them claiming directs the nightkill their way.

[faust]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

Yeah that sure sounds like something scum wants.

[Uncleeurope]

I am townreading MiX.

You’re also his highest chance at a partner if he is scum. (IMO)

That being said, I definitely would prefer a different person to die today, at least.

[EFHW]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

Yeah that sure sounds like something scum wants.

Is it possible to communicate in a more polite manner? One less nk a night is valuable and the previous approach was going terribly.

[EFHW]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

No, I'm SK reading him actually. Him or Eddie.

We are playing fairly differently, interested in the connection there.

No connection between you and MiX. You are disengaged and not scumhunting.  MiX feels kind of hyper and like maybe he has a role that is difficult to navigate.

[Uncleeurope]

I would say I am disengaged, but I am scum hunting.

Regardless, I would scum hunt as an SK.

[ashersky]

I would say I am disengaged, but I am scum hunting.

Regardless, I would scum hunt as an SK.

You wouldn’t scum hunt as non-SK scum?

[Uncleeurope]

I would say I am disengaged, but I am scum hunting.

Regardless, I would scum hunt as an SK.

You wouldn’t scum hunt as non-SK scum?

She is saying me lacking interest in scum hunting (which is her opinion that I believe to be flawed, but that is irrelevant to her initial point, so I will return to the point at hand) is indicative of me being a SK, I am saying that is silly. Had she made the point that such behavior (behavior which I don't believe I am exhibiting) was indicative of scumminess, I would have broadened my initial point to include all of scum.

That being said, what answer were you expecting there?

[Uncleeurope]

Or, as my mother used to say "Just because I tell your brother that I love him doesn't mean I hate you."

[MiX]

Do you believe one of (EFHW, MiX) is scum beyond a shadow of doubt?

What were you hoping to learn by asking me this?

If you said yes I could focus my attention on lynching between you and EFHW.

And what is the downside of Town!Garak claiming? If they can convince us they are town, they can still do their thing tonight. I don't think most town!Garaks would let fear of being lynched keep them from claiming. Could be wrong.

I agree completely...except it would be terrible if Garak bus drived on the night he dies. He would have to crumb, at the very least. But I suppose he would always have to crumb so it's fine.

I don’t think even MiX is townreading MiX.

Bahahaha

That’s a sig if I’ve ever seen one.

That IS a good one, I'll need to write it down somewhere so I can use it after the game.

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

No, I'm SK reading him actually. Him or Eddie.

We are playing fairly differently, interested in the connection there.

That's probably her scumreads that have no vote analysis behind it. Just like every case on me...worthless. But alas, I've lived this long because of it, maybe they helped.

I am townreading MiX.

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?


Now something that isn't a reply: sadly...yes, I can see a scenario where EFHW is town and Didds is scum. In fact, that's where my gut reads are pushing me...hopefully I'll reread both of them and come out with better information than the wagon.

[faust]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

Yeah that sure sounds like something scum wants.

Is it possible to communicate in a more polite manner? One less nk a night is valuable and the previous approach was going terribly.

Sorry about that.

Sure lynching the SK helps us. It also helps the other scum team. If the win chances with SK are 33/33/33, after lynching they are 50/50.

But
a) we have no idea whether a SK exists.
b) it is hard to find the SK, harder than finding other scum that interacts with partners.
c) lynching the SK is something everyone who is not the SK likes, so doing that is not going to create interactions that help us find other scum.

[faust]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

[faust]

Garak tracking:

Not Garak: faust, Eddie, EFHW, MiX, WCD

Really scummy if Garak: raerae

The rest: ash, UoS, Space

[faust]

+ if Garak chooses at the start of the game, then UoS is not Garak.

[faust]

So: Space, are you Garak?

[faust]

For reference, DatSwan's first D2 posts:

well I had a good VCA done, but the skum flip means I need to edit it. will have some stuff to go off of tonight.

also people should scan glooble for potential crumbs

Unfortunately, they seem to indicate that he investigated someone who died.

[SpaceAnemone]

So: Space, are you Garak?

I am not.

[SpaceAnemone]

I don't follow where EFHW and faust are getting the assumption that Gark must have chosen one of the two possibilities N0. That wasn't my default assumption.. was it anyone else's?

I've just gone and searched through the old game for "Garak", and even at the end of the game, his role was referred to with the "or" still in place, which implies to me that he still had the choice at that point.

[Uncleeurope]

I think I assumed they chose start of game as well.

[MiX]

I think I assumed they chose start of game as well.

Weird, I thought it was obvious that they pick which ability to use the night they want to use it...how odd. We can just get that clarification from ash when he claims, but it's still...interesting, how different people assume different things.

[raerae]

A completely different tack would be to look for the SK, in case there is one. Finding them would reduce the nk's to at most 1 per night.

That would be nice but they leave no trail.  We could just lynch MiX.  Unless you're town reading him?

I don’t think even MiX is townreading MiX.

Which begs the question of why his lynch has never gone through.

I did not.

http://begthequestion.info/

I consider myself appropriately schooled.

[raerae]

I am townreading MiX.

You’re also his highest chance at a partner if he is scum. (IMO)

That being said, I definitely would prefer a different person to die today, at least.

Who, again?  And why?  And why not MiX?

[raerae]

Or, as my mother used to say "Just because I tell your brother that I love him doesn't mean I hate you."

Your mom sounds like my kind of people.  Stealing that phrase.

[raerae]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

[EFHW]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

Two of UoS, ashersky, Didds.

[EFHW]

Also Eddie.

[Uncleeurope]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

Two of UoS, ashersky, Didds.

I’d probably throw space into that pool as well.

Unless I missed something.

[EFHW]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

Two of UoS, ashersky, Didds.

I’d probably throw space into that pool as well.

Unless I missed something.

Go ahead. You didn't miss anything. They're low on my list, though.

[Uncleeurope]

Also Eddie.

Do you think I am SKnot shraeye’s partnrr? Or both? Or neither?

[Uncleeurope]

Also Eddie.

Do you think I am the SK? Shraeye’s partner? Or both? Or neither?

Well that was a mess,

Fixed it.

[EFHW]

Also Eddie.

Do you think I am SKnot shraeye’s partnrr? Or both? Or neither?

I don't know. You can't be both, obviously. You could be either or neither.

[EFHW]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

The pool isn't all that shallow. Why does it feel that way to you?

[MiX]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

The pool isn't all that shallow. Why does it feel that way to you?

Do you think raerae's scum?

[EFHW]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

The pool isn't all that shallow. Why does it feel that way to you?

Do you think raerae's scum?

Not really, but I've been surprised lots of times so who knows.

[raerae]

Someone sane exists. Fortunate. What's your opinion on EFHW?

Not very likely to be scum with shraeye.

So who is?  Everybody keeps saying it couldn't possibly be MiX (I disagree), it can't be EFHW, it wasn't Awaclus.  Who is it then?  We're getting toward the shallow end of the pool.

The pool isn't all that shallow. Why does it feel that way to you?

Because if there are two teams we're down to 4 town.  I know I'm town, I have good feelings on 2.5 other people, bad feelings on <3, and everybody else is in this creepy area where I mostly don't trust them.  So, yeah, I'm not feeling great right now.  If you're comfortable then I guess I can adjust my reads. 

If there's a SK we're slightly better off but I'd rather plan for worst case scenario and be pleasantly surprised than assume SK and get ambushed with a team.

[Uncleeurope]

Interesting, so you have expanded your bounds past MiX?

Care to share one of those names?

Or have you already and I missed it?

[raerae]

Interesting, so you have expanded your bounds past MiX?

Care to share one of those names?

Or have you already and I missed it?

Later, my friend, later.  I think MiX is our best lynch today and I'd rather not derail that.

[MiX]

Interesting, so you have expanded your bounds past MiX?

Care to share one of those names?

Or have you already and I missed it?

Later, my friend, later.  I think MiX is our best lynch today and I'd rather not derail that.

Killing me is the biggest bore for today. I suggest EFHW or Didds, which one would you prefer? If neither, how about Space? These are my scumreads by the way.

[jotheonah]

Dear mods, when does Garak choose between Lightning Rod and Bus Driver?

When he uses the power.

[SpaceAnemone]

Interesting, so you have expanded your bounds past MiX?

Care to share one of those names?

Or have you already and I missed it?

Later, my friend, later.  I think MiX is our best lynch today and I'd rather not derail that.

Killing me is the biggest bore for today. I suggest EFHW or Didds, which one would you prefer? If neither, how about Space? These are my scumreads by the way.

That's an odd set. You seem to be quite taken with my case on EFHW-or-maybe-WCD, and yet you decide to put me up there with them as a scumread? If you think we're the most likely three scum, I think you must have some confidence that at least, say, two of us are scum. Yet that case was made by me using my running-voting-state counter, which nobody else here seems to have made for themselves. I didn't have to post the running vote counts, nor did I have to point out the e wagon on multiple occasions, yet you think I'd do that to implicate my alleged scum-teammates?

Also, you're the only one to have parroted my "faust is marginally less likely to be scum" thing from yesterday, which seems odd if you think I'm scum and don't include him as a scumread.

[SpaceAnemone]

Related point: today I'm not 100% sure I was correct in my faust assessment that MiX. It hinges on how likely Joth is to have named SK as the missing scums in the Ferengi QT under the various permutations of factions in the game and in the QT. When I think more about it, I'm not confident he knew in advance exactly how all the cases would go (see previous questioning of Joth by faust in-thread), so probably my assertion is on shaky ground at best.

[SpaceAnemone]

Dear mods, when does Garak choose between Lightning Rod and Bus Driver?

When he uses the power.

Cool, that means my initial assumption was correct, and the assumption that EFHW and faust seemed to be working with was not. It's possible faust was just influenced by what EFHW had said, but it's also a slight partner indication between the two of them, since it's something that may have been discussed in a scum QT. I propose awarding a handful of scumpoints to one of them if the other flips scum.

[EFHW]

Ok, sorry everyone for my opinions based on a faulty assumption, that I didn't realize I had made. I no longer think Garak must be scum.

[faust]

Dear mods, when does Garak choose between Lightning Rod and Bus Driver?

When he uses the power.

Cool, that means my initial assumption was correct, and the assumption that EFHW and faust seemed to be working with was not. It's possible faust was just influenced by what EFHW had said, but it's also a slight partner indication between the two of them, since it's something that may have been discussed in a scum QT. I propose awarding a handful of scumpoints to one of them if the other flips scum.

If we were scum, we have have simply asked the above question in the scum QT when the topic came up... so actually it makes us lesss likely scum.

[MiX]

Interesting, so you have expanded your bounds past MiX?

Care to share one of those names?

Or have you already and I missed it?

Later, my friend, later.  I think MiX is our best lynch today and I'd rather not derail that.

Killing me is the biggest bore for today. I suggest EFHW or Didds, which one would you prefer? If neither, how about Space? These are my scumreads by the way.

That's an odd set. You seem to be quite taken with my case on EFHW-or-maybe-WCD, and yet you decide to put me up there with them as a scumread? If you think we're the most likely three scum, I think you must have some confidence that at least, say, two of us are scum. Yet that case was made by me using my running-voting-state counter, which nobody else here seems to have made for themselves. I didn't have to post the running vote counts, nor did I have to point out the e wagon on multiple occasions, yet you think I'd do that to implicate my alleged scum-teammates?

I believe that you're the most likely partner of both of them, and that you would be delighted to do that VCA if everyone in the wagon wasn't part of your team. Notice how you're the only person in both Robz and Awaclus' wagons that hasn't flipped, coupled that with the fact that shraeye was off both of them and it seems obvious that, since EFHW was also not on either wagon (but LL didn't really have the time to move his vote, but EFHW did on D2) that you're the only possible EFHW partner...if she's Maquis. For the same reason you're one of the few possible partners for Didds...if she's Maquis. I have no idea how to hunt for MU, pretty sure I do that by townreading 3 people and PoEing everyone else as scum? Well I have...exactly 3 townreads. So, yeah. And if neither EFHW and Didds are Maquis then you have a really strong incentive to post that VCA as Maquis, but I'm not so sure your VCAs are that alignment indicative...

TL;DR: You're scum in all three scenarios: EFHW is Maquis, Didds is Maquis, neither are Maquis. Well, just probably in the last two. But for sure in the first one...which leads me to

Vote: Space

PS: Others have used intermediate vote counts: me and Swan, at least.

Also, you're the only one to have parroted my "faust is marginally less likely to be scum" thing from yesterday, which seems odd if you think I'm scum and don't include him as a scumread.

It's true, why would I omit it or scumread faust for you saying it? It's a fact. And an irrelevent fact, at least for now.

[faust]

Good enough.

Vote: Space

[faust]

I was looking through some early Space posts. Look at this gem:

I'm approximately 70 posts behind in terms of reading, and I'm at a work party tonight. To avoid being completely useless, here's the fastest thing I can do:

No interest in lynching (townreads, people I think are not good D1 lynches, newbie)
3. LaLight
7. WestCoastDidds
8. SpaceAnemone
9. Shraeye
11. faust
12. ashersky
17. raerae
18. chickenwarlord

Little interest in lynching (feeling meh on, but happy about the fact they're posting stuff)
5. mcmcsalot
2. UmbrageOfSnow

Happy to go along with a lynch/have no opinion on (scumreads up to null people I don't have strong feelings about)
1. Jimmmmm
4. DatSwan
6. Glooble
10. MiX
13. 2.71828.....
14. Robz888
15. Awaclus
16. Uncleeurope

Things I will try to do before deadline:
1) Re-read everyone on the bottom list there.
2) Get the vote counter set up so I can try to post useful vote counts. The deadline is 1pm my time, which is totally civilised for me, so I should be here from 2-3 hours beforehand.

(coloring mine)

[faust]

Sorry, missed coloring chicken. Was not meant to misrespresent stuff.

[Uncleeurope]

Good enough.

Vote: Space

L-2...? I think...?

[faust]

Good enough.

Vote: Space

L-2...? I think...?

Oh you are voting there as well. Funny how that is exactly the composition of the late D1 wagon on Space.

[Uncleeurope]

Good enough.

Vote: Space

L-2...? I think...?

Oh you are voting there as well. Funny how that is exactly the composition of the late D1 wagon on Space.

The nostalgia is palpable, hopefully the sequel has a better ending than the original.

[MiX]

Good enough.

Vote: Space

L-2...? I think...?

Oh you are voting there as well. Funny how that is exactly the composition of the late D1 wagon on Space.

The nostalgia is palpable, hopefully the sequel has a better ending than the original.

The ending is whatever scumteam Space isn't in quickhammers. I'm just waiting for that now...

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 4.3

“I can’t believe we’ve let the Cardassian spy off the hook this long!” a Bajoran Jumja stick vendor says to her customers. “That’s the way to stop all these murders! Storm the tailor shop!”

The mob storms the shop, but Garak is nowhere to be found. Putting a secret escape hatch in your tailor shop in case someone’s after you is, like, Obsidian Order 101 after all.

Vote count:

MiX (1): raerae
SpaceAnemone (3): Uncleeurope, MiX, faust
Not voting (5): SpaceAnemone, EFHW, ashersky, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch most players. Day 4 ends at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Friday,  March 29th.

[EFHW]

Good enough.

Vote: Space

Seriously? That whole analysis was based on finding a partner for me or Didds, and we haven't flipped anything! No mention of UoS, ash, or Eddie, who are completely unknown quantities who have been much less helpful than Space. He says the VCAs are NAI, but then uses them as proof they are Maquis if neither of me or Didds are. The next seven times someone else is illogical you should remember this vote!

vote: MiX

[faust]

Seriously? That whole analysis was based on finding a partner for me or Didds, and we haven't flipped anything!

Except it wasn't. It also handled the case that neither of you are scum.

No mention of UoS, ash, or Eddie, who are completely unknown quantities who have been much less helpful than Space.

Helpfulness is a bad indicator of scumminess. If anything, I think helpful people are usually more likely scum, and certainly so in Space's case.

He says the VCAs are NAI, but then uses them as proof they are Maquis if neither of me or Didds are.

Where was this?

[EFHW]

And if neither EFHW and Didds are Maquis then you have a really strong incentive to post that VCA as Maquis, but I'm not so sure your VCAs are that alignment indicative...

[EFHW]

Unhelpfulness is a scum trait. And Space being helpful certainly doesn't exonerate UoS,  ash or Eddie.

[EFHW]

And if neither EFHW and Didds are Maquis then you have a really strong incentive to post that VCA as Maquis, but I'm not so sure your VCAs are that alignment indicative...

He followed this with his tl;dr that Space is scum in all three scenarios.

[faust]

And if neither EFHW and Didds are Maquis then you have a really strong incentive to post that VCA as Maquis, but I'm not so sure your VCAs are that alignment indicative...

OKay you meant something different from what I thought you meant. This just says that he isn't sure.

[faust]

Unhelpfulness is a scum trait. And Space being helpful certainly doesn't exonerate UoS,  ash or Eddie.

So why are you voting MiX and not one of those unhelpful people?

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning, folks! I’m back from the land of big trees and will try to get reasonably caught up today.

Vote: MiX (L-2) because Space? Raerae and EFHW are making more sense right now than MiX, Eddie, and faust.

[MiX]

Good enough.

Vote: Space

Seriously? That whole analysis was based on finding a partner for me or Didds, and we haven't flipped anything! No mention of UoS, ash, or Eddie, who are completely unknown quantities who have been much less helpful than Space. He says the VCAs are NAI, but then uses them as proof they are Maquis if neither of me or Didds are. The next seven times someone else is illogical you should remember this vote!

vote: MiX

If you want to lynch me to save your scumbuddy, just say it, there's no reason to attack the case. But you are correct when you say that the case on Space if neither of you are scum is weak, I just don't see a world where you and Didds are town. The "neither are Maquis" part is a bonus, in case I'm completely wrong, and it points to being right about Space. I should SERIOUSLY reread you 3, I am too lazy for D4, I need to step up my game.

Unhelpfulness is a scum trait. And Space being helpful certainly doesn't exonerate UoS,  ash or Eddie.

Ah, now who thinks Space's VCAs are alignment indicative? And if you do, why do you think that? Notice how I'm hunting Maquis: I don't think Snow, ash or Eddie are Maquis but I'm pretty sure EFHW Didds or Space are.

Unhelpfulness is a scum trait. And Space being helpful certainly doesn't exonerate UoS,  ash or Eddie.

So why are you voting MiX and not one of those unhelpful people?

Simple: she wanted to jump on my wagon by any means necessary.

Good morning, folks! I’m back from the land of big trees and will try to get reasonably caught up today.

Vote: MiX (L-2) because Space? Raerae and EFHW are making more sense right now than MiX, Eddie, and faust.

Are you all MU?

[EFHW]

And if neither EFHW and Didds are Maquis then you have a really strong incentive to post that VCA as Maquis, but I'm not so sure your VCAs are that alignment indicative...

OKay you meant something different from what I thought you meant. This just says that he isn't sure.

It's his ONLY argument for Space being Maquis if Didds and I aren't. I asked for the VCA. It's completely NAI.

[EFHW]

Unhelpfulness is a scum trait. And Space being helpful certainly doesn't exonerate UoS,  ash or Eddie.

So why are you voting MiX and not one of those unhelpful people?

Because he is being outright scummy.

[faust]

And if neither EFHW and Didds are Maquis then you have a really strong incentive to post that VCA as Maquis, but I'm not so sure your VCAs are that alignment indicative...

OKay you meant something different from what I thought you meant. This just says that he isn't sure.

It's his ONLY argument for Space being Maquis if Didds and I aren't. I asked for the VCA. It's completely NAI.

Well Didds is scummy, you are not towny, so again, good enough.

[faust]

Unhelpfulness is a scum trait. And Space being helpful certainly doesn't exonerate UoS,  ash or Eddie.

So why are you voting MiX and not one of those unhelpful people?

Because he is being outright scummy.

How?

[EFHW]

If you want to lynch me to save your scumbuddy, just say it, there's no reason to attack the case

I just gave several excellent reasons for attacking your case.

Why aren't UoS, ash or Eddie Maquis? I can't think of a single factor casting doubt on the possibility.

I could have jumped on your wagon at any time.  I didn't have a reason to until now.

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

[faust]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

[MiX]

If you want to lynch me to save your scumbuddy, just say it, there's no reason to attack the case

I just gave several excellent reasons for attacking your case.

Why aren't UoS, ash or Eddie Maquis? I can't think of a single factor casting doubt on the possibility.

I could have jumped on your wagon at any time.  I didn't have a reason to until now.

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

The vote on Space's actually a continuation of my vote on you, which is to say, if one of my Maquis!scumreads is, in fact, Maquis, then I believe Space's Maquis. Given that I doubt neither are Maquis, Space's Maquis. It's a really weird thing to do without flips but I just...can't see you nor Didds be Maquis (nor Space). If you can come up with a scenario where that happens...then by all means, go ahead. I can't. Feel free to try, I would love to see a better case on someone else, but I think I'm correct here.

[EFHW]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

What have I overlooked? And I'm not trying to convince you to vote MiX, I'm trying to convince you to unvote Space.

[faust]

MiX: Do you think EFHW/Didds could both be Maquis?

[MiX]

MiX: Do you think EFHW/Didds could both be Maquis?

No.

[MiX]

MiX: Do you think EFHW/Didds could both be Maquis?

No.

Otherwise I wouldn't be voting for Space, right? I think you already knew the answer to this question. But I understand it.

[faust]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

What have I overlooked? And I'm not trying to convince you to vote MiX, I'm trying to convince you to unvote Space.

Well for starters shraeye townread MiX on D1 and then suddenly flipped at the start of D2. I just don't think he has incentive to do that to a partner. And MiX has been a top lynch candidate for almost the whole game with very little reasoning, the strongest point being raerae's speculations on reasons to kill off Glooble.

Space on the other hand has pushed for the lynch of townies all game, has thrown out that e wagon analysis and referenced it multiple times without ever investigating the people implicated by it (D2 they decided to reread me and Eddie over the people they supposedly suspected), protected shraeye, posted very little in terms of reads and joined all the mislynch wagons.

[EFHW]

Who here thinks that scum!Space would have been so vocal in pointing out all the known towns on that e wagon if their partner was one of the unknowns?

PPE faust: No one has pushed a scum wagon that we know of. Do I need to mention Awaclus?

[Uncleeurope]

Plus 80% (<- hyperbole (probably?)) of Space's posts are focused on probability talk, which gives the illusion of helpfulness without any meaningful content. In my eyes anyway.

It's an easy way to say a lot and nothing at the same time.

[MiX]

Who here thinks that scum!Space would have been so vocal in pointing out all the known towns on that e wagon if their partner was one of the unknowns?

PPE faust: No one has pushed a scum wagon that we know of. Do I need to mention Awaclus?

Jimmmmmm did, may he rest in piece for seeing what all of us couldn't.

Are you scumreading faust? Is that what's happening here? I don't think Space really pushed the Awaclus wagon, as scum would, but they pushed E's wagon, which is on character. Actually, let me reread Space's D3 really quick...

Plus 80% (<- hyperbole (probably?)) of Space's posts are focused on probability talk, which gives the illusion of helpfulness without any meaningful content. In my eyes anyway.

It's an easy way to say a lot and nothing at the same time.

It's easier to bus if you're voting, by the way. Just saying.

[MiX]

Plus 80% (<- hyperbole (probably?)) of Space's posts are focused on probability talk, which gives the illusion of helpfulness without any meaningful content. In my eyes anyway.

It's an easy way to say a lot and nothing at the same time.

It's easier to bus if you're voting, by the way. Just saying.

You ARE voting...withdrawn.

[EFHW]

@faust: I'll unvote MiX if you unvote Space.

@Eddie: Why don't you actually go back and count how many of their points were simply probabilty calculations. If anyone has been actilurking, it's you.

[EFHW]

Who here thinks that scum!Space would have been so vocal in pointing out all the known towns on that e wagon if their partner was one of the unknowns?

PPE faust: No one has pushed a scum wagon that we know of. Do I need to mention Awaclus?

Jimmmmmm did, may he rest in piece for seeing what all of us couldn't.

Are you scumreading faust? Is that what's happening here? I don't think Space really pushed the Awaclus wagon, as scum would, but they pushed E's wagon, which is on character. Actually, let me reread Space's D3 really quick...

Plus 80% (<- hyperbole (probably?)) of Space's posts are focused on probability talk, which gives the illusion of helpfulness without any meaningful content. In my eyes anyway.

It's an easy way to say a lot and nothing at the same time.

It's easier to bus if you're voting, by the way. Just saying.

I was talking to faust, who was responsible for the Awaclus mislynch.  I am not scumreading faust. That is why I am so frustrated with him.

[Uncleeurope]

@faust: I'll unvote MiX if you unvote Space.

@Eddie: Why don't you actually go back and count how many of their points were simply probabilty calculations. If anyone has been actilurking, it's you.

Is everyone in agreement that I am being unhelpful? What does being helpful constitute? Because I feel more helpful than a large portion of our players right now.

[faust]

Who here thinks that scum!Space would have been so vocal in pointing out all the known towns on that e wagon if their partner was one of the unknowns?

Me.

[faust]

@faust: I'll unvote MiX if you unvote Space.

I'll unvote Space if you claim Cop with an innocent result on them.

[MiX]

@faust: I'll unvote MiX if you unvote Space.

@Eddie: Why don't you actually go back and count how many of their points were simply probabilty calculations. If anyone has been actilurking, it's you.

Is everyone in agreement that I am being unhelpful? What does being helpful constitute? Because I feel more helpful than a large portion of our players right now.

Your vote swapping shenanigans have caused me much hurt in VCAs. For example, I always have to include you in every list, which includes the "on wagon" and "off wagon" lists. It's...annoying, that's the word. And I don't remember anything else you did that was helpful. But you were much nicer in M121...

[faust]

Actually now that we can assume that we still have a form of protection, I think we should force Cop claims.

[Uncleeurope]

Yup, I don't like to make people upset with me as scum. Soooo yeah... You can trust me for suresies.

[MiX]

Actually now that we can assume that we still have a form of protection, I think we should force Cop claims.

Worthless if cops have 2 or less innocent results. We have ONE bus drive and that's it. Regardless we need a Garak claim because if they're scum they won't protect the cops.

[faust]

Plus 80% (<- hyperbole (probably?)) of Space's posts are focused on probability talk, which gives the illusion of helpfulness without any meaningful content. In my eyes anyway.

It's an easy way to say a lot and nothing at the same time.

But I don't think that is alignment indicative for Space. Well a little in that they are playing within their meta, but not significantly.

[faust]

Actually now that we can assume that we still have a form of protection, I think we should force Cop claims.

Worthless if cops have 2 or less innocent results. We have ONE bus drive and that's it. Regardless we need a Garak claim because if they're scum they won't protect the cops.

I disagree. And scum Garak may well protect the Cop for the other team. How long do you think we should wait for Cop results?

[Uncleeurope]

Plus 80% (<- hyperbole (probably?)) of Space's posts are focused on probability talk, which gives the illusion of helpfulness without any meaningful content. In my eyes anyway.

It's an easy way to say a lot and nothing at the same time.

But I don't think that is alignment indicative for Space. Well a little in that they are playing within their meta, but not significantly.

Fair, it's my first game with Space, no idea of what their meta is. Town or Scum. It just feels like contentless wall posts to me.

[MiX]

Actually now that we can assume that we still have a form of protection, I think we should force Cop claims.

Worthless if cops have 2 or less innocent results. We have ONE bus drive and that's it. Regardless we need a Garak claim because if they're scum they won't protect the cops.

I disagree. And scum Garak may well protect the Cop for the other team. How long do you think we should wait for Cop results?

One day. And your argument, while good...well, might kill our Maquis cop while there's no MU. Too risky, cops know what they know and they should know when it's good to claim.

[Uncleeurope]

@EFHW, are you more wary of WCD or Space?

[faust]

Actually now that we can assume that we still have a form of protection, I think we should force Cop claims.

Worthless if cops have 2 or less innocent results. We have ONE bus drive and that's it. Regardless we need a Garak claim because if they're scum they won't protect the cops.

I disagree. And scum Garak may well protect the Cop for the other team. How long do you think we should wait for Cop results?

One day. And your argument, while good...well, might kill our Maquis cop while there's no MU. Too risky, cops know what they know and they should know when it's good to claim.

Then we know that Garak is scum. So just as good as having another night of Cop results. In fact I'd argue that a Cop is more likely to die tonight if we don't claim.

[ashersky]

Cop(s) claim(s) with three results is definitely better than any other claim right now.

[EFHW]

Actually now that we can assume that we still have a form of protection, I think we should force Cop claims.

Worthless if cops have 2 or less innocent results. We have ONE bus drive and that's it. Regardless we need a Garak claim because if they're scum they won't protect the cops.

Right.

[EFHW]

Actually now that we can assume that we still have a form of protection, I think we should force Cop claims.

Worthless if cops have 2 or less innocent results. We have ONE bus drive and that's it. Regardless we need a Garak claim because if they're scum they won't protect the cops.

I disagree. And scum Garak may well protect the Cop for the other team. How long do you think we should wait for Cop results?

One day. And your argument, while good...well, might kill our Maquis cop while there's no MU. Too risky, cops know what they know and they should know when it's good to claim.

Then we know that Garak is scum. So just as good as having another night of Cop results. In fact I'd argue that a Cop is more likely to die tonight if we don't claim.

If cops are going to take the risk of claiming, then Garak should too, to hold them accountable.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry, missed coloring chicken. Was not meant to misrespresent stuff.

It misrepresents stuff anyway.

1) Yes, Chicken in my top list was green.
2) Chicken, Shraeye and Raerae were up there because they're all new-to-me players in D1 of a game, who weren't being actively scummy. (MiX and Eddie are new-to-me people who were not being non-scummy, so I promoted them to would-lynch).
3) You pointed out yourself that I was being biased, and it's likely that LL and WCD were up there for biased reasons.
4) This list was posted before any kills, so cannot be said to be independent of them.
5) You were the one pushing the Awaclus lunch through, not me.
6) Actually, I've played consistently, given that I've supported lynches of people on my stated would-lynch list. Do really you think scum!me would have put all my partners in the upper section and mostly only townies in the lower section?

[EFHW]

*them refers to Garak.

[Uncleeurope]

@EFHW, you mention a few people as being less helpful in your eyes, but you didn’t include WCD, do you find WCD to be helpful?

[SpaceAnemone]

TL;DR: You're scum in all three scenarios: EFHW is Maquis, Didds is Maquis, neither are Maquis. Well, just probably in the last two. But for sure in the first one...which leads me to

I can assure you that I'm definitively not scum at all. If/when I flip town, will that lead you to be more or less convinced about EFHW and WCD?

PS: Others have used intermediate vote counts: me and Swan, at least.

I haven't noticed you calculating VCs at points other than those posted by the mods. I was pointing out that if having the complete voting history of the game incriminates me and my hypothetical partners, there would be no reason for me to have shared it with the thread back at #1521, or to have specifically highlighted the ones around the e wagon.

Also, you're the only one to have parroted my "faust is marginally less likely to be scum" thing from yesterday, which seems odd if you think I'm scum and don't include him as a scumread.

It's true, why would I omit it or scumread faust for you saying it? It's a fact. And an irrelevent fact, at least for now.

I'm not sure it's a true fact, is what I'm saying. And it is relevant that you've picked it up as a fact uncritically from me, if you also claim you scumread me.

[raerae]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

What have I overlooked? And I'm not trying to convince you to vote MiX, I'm trying to convince you to unvote Space.

Well for starters shraeye townread MiX on D1 and then suddenly flipped at the start of D2. I just don't think he has incentive to do that to a partner. And MiX has been a top lynch candidate for almost the whole game with very little reasoning, the strongest point being raerae's speculations on reasons to kill off Glooble.

Space on the other hand has pushed for the lynch of townies all game, has thrown out that e wagon analysis and referenced it multiple times without ever investigating the people implicated by it (D2 they decided to reread me and Eddie over the people they supposedly suspected), protected shraeye, posted very little in terms of reads and joined all the mislynch wagons.

Your misrepresenting shraeye's MiX feelings, giving somebody a D1 pass isn't the same as town reading them.

[faust]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

What have I overlooked? And I'm not trying to convince you to vote MiX, I'm trying to convince you to unvote Space.

Well for starters shraeye townread MiX on D1 and then suddenly flipped at the start of D2. I just don't think he has incentive to do that to a partner. And MiX has been a top lynch candidate for almost the whole game with very little reasoning, the strongest point being raerae's speculations on reasons to kill off Glooble.

Space on the other hand has pushed for the lynch of townies all game, has thrown out that e wagon analysis and referenced it multiple times without ever investigating the people implicated by it (D2 they decided to reread me and Eddie over the people they supposedly suspected), protected shraeye, posted very little in terms of reads and joined all the mislynch wagons.

Your misrepresenting shraeye's MiX feelings, giving somebody a D1 pass isn't the same as town reading them.

Here's who seems like they're engaging well, acting towny to me; drawing questions/discussions about eachother:
MiX

I will let the audience judge on who's doing the misrepresenting.

[SpaceAnemone]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

What have I overlooked? And I'm not trying to convince you to vote MiX, I'm trying to convince you to unvote Space.

Well for starters shraeye townread MiX on D1 and then suddenly flipped at the start of D2. I just don't think he has incentive to do that to a partner. And MiX has been a top lynch candidate for almost the whole game with very little reasoning, the strongest point being raerae's speculations on reasons to kill off Glooble.

Space on the other hand has pushed for the lynch of townies all game, has thrown out that e wagon analysis and referenced it multiple times without ever investigating the people implicated by it (D2 they decided to reread me and Eddie over the people they supposedly suspected), protected shraeye, posted very little in terms of reads and joined all the mislynch wagons.

Your misrepresenting shraeye's MiX feelings, giving somebody a D1 pass isn't the same as town reading them.

faust also misrepresented me as "protecting" Shraeye when all I did was say I wasn't voting for his lynch D1 because he was a new-to-me player.

[SpaceAnemone]

I don't want to vote MiX here unless it comes down to a him-vs-me scenario, because I do think there's a chance he's just town making awful cases.

I do also think there's likely to be at least one scum between EFHW and WCD, so the fact that the two of them are both on his wagon doesn't inspire confidence that it's a well-placed town vote.

@EFHW: you asked me to post the D1 & D2 voting histories. What have you so far done with that information?

[faust]

faust also misrepresented me as "protecting" Shraeye when all I did was say I wasn't voting for his lynch D1 because he was a new-to-me player.

Again, happy to put this one to this audience:

No interest in lynching (townreads, people I think are not good D1 lynches, newbie)
[...]
9. Shraeye

The bracket doesn't include "new-to-me players" as a reason.

[faust]

faust also misrepresented me as "protecting" Shraeye when all I did was say I wasn't voting for his lynch D1 because he was a new-to-me player.

Again, happy to put this one to this audience:

No interest in lynching (townreads, people I think are not good D1 lynches, newbie)
[...]
9. Shraeye

The bracket doesn't include "new-to-me players" as a reason.

In fact, you also didn't play with Eddie, and he's on your would lynch list in this.

[faust]

6) Actually, I've played consistently, given that I've supported lynches of people on my stated would-lynch list. Do really you think scum!me would have put all my partners in the upper section and mostly only townies in the lower section?

Yep, it is oh so townie to never change your reads on anyone after D1. And yes I do. I mean obviously you'd have tried to put people from the other scum faction in the lower section, but I'd expect your partners being in the top part.

[SpaceAnemone]

faust also misrepresented me as "protecting" Shraeye when all I did was say I wasn't voting for his lynch D1 because he was a new-to-me player.

Again, happy to put this one to this audience:

No interest in lynching (townreads, people I think are not good D1 lynches, newbie)
[...]
9. Shraeye

The bracket doesn't include "new-to-me players" as a reason.

In fact, you also didn't play with Eddie, and he's on your would lynch list in this.

I haven't played with MiX before this game either, but both he and Eddie were looking opportunistic and non-townie to me.

I'm sorry if you don't like the way I'd chosen my words, but the fact is that raerae and Shraeye were both up there because I wasn't interested in voting for them on D1 them without playing a bit more first. You and Ash were there because it's silly to kill you off early when you usually get NKd and/or are forced into pro-town play when you're scum, for meta reasons. That doesn't mean I was explicitly townreading the two of you either.

[faust]

I'm sorry if you don't like the way I'd chosen my words, but the fact is that raerae and Shraeye were both up there because I wasn't interested in voting for them on D1 them without playing a bit more first. You and Ash were there because it's silly to kill you off early when you usually get NKd and/or are forced into pro-town play when you're scum, for meta reasons. That doesn't mean I was explicitly townreading the two of you either.

That may well be the case, but you did not say so, so it is disingenuous of you to accuse me of misrepresenting it when my interpretation was based directly on what you wrote.

[SpaceAnemone]

6) Actually, I've played consistently, given that I've supported lynches of people on my stated would-lynch list. Do really you think scum!me would have put all my partners in the upper section and mostly only townies in the lower section?

Yep, it is oh so townie to never change your reads on anyone after D1. And yes I do. I mean obviously you'd have tried to put people from the other scum faction in the lower section, but I'd expect your partners being in the top part.

I'm happy to vote for you just now if you'd like to see me grow as a human being :-)

The only reason I added point 6 above was that I was trying to help town in the limited time I had available at that point in D1, and posting lists of behaviours people can them hold you to is something I see as townie, because if I suddenly started voting opportunistically on people I'd said I wouldn't want to vote for, then you could tell I wasn't playing in a way that was true to my earlier sentiments. Sure, people's beliefs change as more evidence comes to light, so my D3 vote on e was barely influenced by my D1 list, but it was strongly influenced by other people's voting patterns from D1.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm sorry if you don't like the way I'd chosen my words, but the fact is that raerae and Shraeye were both up there because I wasn't interested in voting for them on D1 them without playing a bit more first. You and Ash were there because it's silly to kill you off early when you usually get NKd and/or are forced into pro-town play when you're scum, for meta reasons. That doesn't mean I was explicitly townreading the two of you either.

That may well be the case, but you did not say so, so it is disingenuous of you to accuse me of misrepresenting it when my interpretation was based directly on what you wrote.

I'm sorry. I saw that there was a caveat I'd written about what qualified people for the top list, but I let my memory of my thought process from the time influence me more than re-reading the words I'd actually written for you to read.

[faust]

The only reason I added point 6 above was that I was trying to help town in the limited time I had available at that point in D1, and posting lists of behaviours people can them hold you to is something I see as townie, because if I suddenly started voting opportunistically on people I'd said I wouldn't want to vote for, then you could tell I wasn't playing in a way that was true to my earlier sentiments.

Or you know, if they suddenly started claiming that they put people on lists for different reasons than stated at the time.

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay, to be clear, I'm not going to vote faust just now, and I'm quite torn about where my vote should actually go.

Right now, though, I have some meetings to prep for, them I'm going to be AFK for a while. Back sometime after 3pm forum time.

[raerae]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

What have I overlooked? And I'm not trying to convince you to vote MiX, I'm trying to convince you to unvote Space.

Well for starters shraeye townread MiX on D1 and then suddenly flipped at the start of D2. I just don't think he has incentive to do that to a partner. And MiX has been a top lynch candidate for almost the whole game with very little reasoning, the strongest point being raerae's speculations on reasons to kill off Glooble.

Space on the other hand has pushed for the lynch of townies all game, has thrown out that e wagon analysis and referenced it multiple times without ever investigating the people implicated by it (D2 they decided to reread me and Eddie over the people they supposedly suspected), protected shraeye, posted very little in terms of reads and joined all the mislynch wagons.

Your misrepresenting shraeye's MiX feelings, giving somebody a D1 pass isn't the same as town reading them.

Here's who seems like they're engaging well, acting towny to me; drawing questions/discussions about eachother:
MiX

I will let the audience judge on who's doing the misrepresenting.

This is what I was remembering, your quote is stronger but I also think shraeye would happily flip on a scumbuddy if they were being scummy, which MiX was D2.  So, as usual, I'm convincing no one of nothin'.

I was about to vote for MiX, then I remembered that I promised myself less tunnelling. 

Mix, your thing with e's townread of me was weird, but I understood you better when you explained it.

Your thing with faust is now weird.  Can you explain what your vote is doing there?

[raerae]

PPE faust: Trying to pass this case off on us is outright scummy, as are the uncalled for attacking comments in his most recent post.

That case seems to rely strongly on the assumption that you are town. Also it is based on 2 posts and ignores everything else. It doesn't do a lot to convince me.

What have I overlooked? And I'm not trying to convince you to vote MiX, I'm trying to convince you to unvote Space.

Well for starters shraeye townread MiX on D1 and then suddenly flipped at the start of D2. I just don't think he has incentive to do that to a partner. And MiX has been a top lynch candidate for almost the whole game with very little reasoning, the strongest point being raerae's speculations on reasons to kill off Glooble.

Space on the other hand has pushed for the lynch of townies all game, has thrown out that e wagon analysis and referenced it multiple times without ever investigating the people implicated by it (D2 they decided to reread me and Eddie over the people they supposedly suspected), protected shraeye, posted very little in terms of reads and joined all the mislynch wagons.

Your misrepresenting shraeye's MiX feelings, giving somebody a D1 pass isn't the same as town reading them.

faust also misrepresented me as "protecting" Shraeye when all I did was say I wasn't voting for his lynch D1 because he was a new-to-me player.

I rolled my eyes at that post, it was so early and in multi-ball it isn't like you can KNOW who town is even if you're scum. 

[faust]

I rolled my eyes at that post, it was so early and in multi-ball it isn't like you can KNOW who town is even if you're scum.

You can know who your partners are.

[raerae]

I don't want to vote MiX here unless it comes down to a him-vs-me scenario, because I do think there's a chance he's just town making awful cases.

I do also think there's likely to be at least one scum between EFHW and WCD, so the fact that the two of them are both on his wagon doesn't inspire confidence that it's a well-placed town vote.

@EFHW: you asked me to post the D1 & D2 voting histories. What have you so far done with that information?

I disagree, again, scum can't know town from scum so not voting MiX because you think somebody on his wagon is scum is silly (unless all the cops happen to be on the same team which I think can't happen?).

[raerae]

I rolled my eyes at that post, it was so early and in multi-ball it isn't like you can KNOW who town is even if you're scum.

You can know who your partners are.

But, and maybe I'm misunderstanding what you were trying to convey, it seemed to me like you were saying, "Look at all the town people SA put on the would lynch side of life."  That isn't a fair assessment.

[faust]

I rolled my eyes at that post, it was so early and in multi-ball it isn't like you can KNOW who town is even if you're scum.

You can know who your partners are.

But, and maybe I'm misunderstanding what you were trying to convey, it seemed to me like you were saying, "Look at all the town people SA put on the would lynch side of life."  That isn't a fair assessment.

I'm rather saying "look how Space kept most of their potential partners off their would lynchs". That the would lynch list contains lots of town is a consequence of that.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 4.4

Another knock at Worf's office door. He looks up- it's Gul Dukat. Worf sighs deeply and opens the door.

"Mr. Worf," says the Cardassian, with his typical, genial smile. "I love what you've done with my old office."

"I have not had time to redecorate, Cardassian," says Worf, "Now state your business."

"No need to be so combative," says Dukat. "I'm here to help. It sounds like you're having some trouble with vigilante justice in response to this rash of murders."

"I can handle the security of this station on my own," says Worf.

"I'm sure you can," says Dukat. "I just wanted to offer my valuable expertise. When I was in charge of this station I put down more than a few rebellions. The trick is just to execute ten Bajorans for every one of your people they kill. Simple, but effective."

Worf stands up.

"Get. Out. Of. My. Office," he says.

"Suit yourself," says Dukat, retreating. "But don't blame me when your whole station falls apart."


Vote count:

MiX (3): raerae, EFHW, WestCoastDidds
SpaceAnemone (3): Uncleeurope, MiX, faust
Not voting (3): SpaceAnemone, ashersky,UmbrageOfSnow

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch most players. Day 4 ends at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Friday, March 29th. Joth is V/LA for most of that time. I am your mod now. I also do not accept vobes.

[EFHW]

@EFHW, you mention a few people as being less helpful in your eyes, but you didn’t include WCD, do you find WCD to be helpful?

Intermittently.

[EFHW]

I don't want to vote MiX here unless it comes down to a him-vs-me scenario, because I do think there's a chance he's just town making awful cases.

I do also think there's likely to be at least one scum between EFHW and WCD, so the fact that the two of them are both on his wagon doesn't inspire confidence that it's a well-placed town vote.

@EFHW: you asked me to post the D1 & D2 voting histories. What have you so far done with that information?

I went through everyone's voting history looking for patterns. I looked at the wagons at their biggest to think about the composition. I investigated Eddie's 19 votes and MiX's 21 to see if there was something there. I looked in particular to see how Shraeye voted and who was voting with him. I ended up suspecting UoS for sitting on faust as a safe scum!perch and only joining established wagons, a conservative voting strategy that scum sometimes adopts. And he was on 4 of the 6 larger wagons - LL, Robz, MiX, faust. Not e or Awaclus. I'll post that, maybe it's interesting.

[EFHW]

Players currently alive and their presence on wagons D1 and D2:

e wagon: Didds, EFHW
LL wagon: Eddie, MiX, Didds, UoS
Robz wagon: Didds, UoS, Eddie, Space
Awaclus: faust, Didds, Eddie, MiX, Space
MiX: raerae, Eddie, ashersky, UoS
faust: UoS, MiX, Eddie

Eddie and MiX have so many votes, it skews the interpretation of their being on so many wagons. Space is only on 2, but faust is accusing them of voting for town too much. Didds is also on 4.

[EFHW]

It would be good to update this for D3. Can't right now.

[MiX]

It would be good to update this for D3. Can't right now.

e wagon: Space, MiX, faust, EFHW, Eddie, ashersky
chicken wagon: Didds
MiX wagon: raerae, UoS

Not as useful as the others, but the chicken wagon is remarkable.

[WestCoastDidds]

It would be good to update this for D3. Can't right now.

e wagon: Space, MiX, faust, EFHW, Eddie, ashersky
chicken wagon: Didds
MiX wagon: raerae, UoS

Not as useful as the others, but the chicken wagon is remarkable.

How is that remarkable? A bunch of people were wrong about e, and I was wrong about chicken. And the other folks on the chicken wagon (e are Datswan) are dead. So, chicken was an example of town on town. The e wagon, however, seems highly likely to have multiple scum.

I feel pretty good about my MiX vote.

[WestCoastDidds]

@EFHW, you mention a few people as being less helpful in your eyes, but you didn’t include WCD, do you find WCD to be helpful?

Intermittently.

Retweet

[MiX]

It would be good to update this for D3. Can't right now.

e wagon: Space, MiX, faust, EFHW, Eddie, ashersky
chicken wagon: Didds
MiX wagon: raerae, UoS

Not as useful as the others, but the chicken wagon is remarkable.

How is that remarkable? A bunch of people were wrong about e, and I was wrong about chicken. And the other folks on the chicken wagon (e are Datswan) are dead. So, chicken was an example of town on town. The e wagon, however, seems highly likely to have multiple scum.

I feel pretty good about my MiX vote.

That's quite a defense for the word "remarkable". I just said that because it's the only wagon with exactly 1 unflipped player, yet you immediately said that it was a town on town wagon. So, tell me, is Space your scumbuddy?

Just to clarify, I'm not scumreading (or townreading) you for it, the defense simply feels...out of place. Very out of place. Who are scum in your opinion?

[raerae]

It would be good to update this for D3. Can't right now.

e wagon: Space, MiX, faust, EFHW, Eddie, ashersky
chicken wagon: Didds
MiX wagon: raerae, UoS

Not as useful as the others, but the chicken wagon is remarkable.

How is that remarkable? A bunch of people were wrong about e, and I was wrong about chicken. And the other folks on the chicken wagon (e are Datswan) are dead. So, chicken was an example of town on town. The e wagon, however, seems highly likely to have multiple scum.

I feel pretty good about my MiX vote.

That's quite a defense for the word "remarkable". I just said that because it's the only wagon with exactly 1 unflipped player, yet you immediately said that it was a town on town wagon. So, tell me, is Space your scumbuddy?

Just to clarify, I'm not scumreading (or townreading) you for it, the defense simply feels...out of place. Very out of place. Who are scum in your opinion?

Disagree.  Your "remarkable" comment was pretty obviously baiting this reaction.

[MiX]

Rereading Space it's very very clear that they stop pushing the "EFHW or E is scum" case, even though it only became stronger after E's flip. It looks, well, out of place, because I just used that expression, I would assume Space would be all over EFHW right now. Like, really, Space stopped doing that because, and I quote:

EFHW's play so far in D4 seems towny enough.

And hmm that's it. Space, how, exactly, is EFHW towny?

PPE 1: Hmm. I suppose I expected Didds to say something, but not that...I don't need her to tell me that the wagon was town-on-town since I know that's what she believes. I would rather have, well, everyone else think about it. Also I just realized it's a way to say "yep MiX's scum", sigh.

[WestCoastDidds]

Chicken being Ferengi explains some of his difference in play bewtween D2 and D3.

Tell me more about that difference.

I found his posts to be much longer and well informed in D3. I assumed that was from chatting it up in the scum QT, but the neighborhood would work just as well.

[WestCoastDidds]

That's quite a defense for the word "remarkable". I just said that because it's the only wagon with exactly 1 unflipped player, yet you immediately said that it was a town on town wagon. So, tell me, is Space your scumbuddy?

Just to clarify, I'm not scumreading (or townreading) you for it, the defense simply feels...out of place. Very out of place. Who are scum in your opinion?

I don't know why it feels out of place to you. Maybe because I've been gone for all of D4, so it seems odd that this is what I choose to answer? Well, I am working my way through what I missed and this was the most recent.

You and Eddie have been, and still are, at the top of my list.

[WestCoastDidds]

Disagree.  Your "remarkable" comment was pretty obviously baiting this reaction.

Ha! Mix says...."Wha.....? I remarked about something that made you look scummy without saying it outright and you responded to that implied statement?! How very scummy of you, WCD! See, she is scum because she didn't like being called scum in an oblique and vague manner."

[WestCoastDidds]

@Space, Didds, and EFHW: Me vs MiX, is it town v town, scum v scum, or town v scum?

town v. scum

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay...I think I am mostly caught up and have answered the direct questions.  If I missed one, please ask again. Sorry for the hald page of posts!

From having been away for awhile and seeing some of the Space voting lists, it is more interesting to me now than it was before that Eddie's bopping around makes it so that he is consistently difficult to pin down since he appears on the vote lists for everyone.  I found it annoying before, but now I see it as a more strategic choice and its seems super scummy to me.

Helpfulness is definitely my barometer for townfolk. However flawed that might be, its what I generally how I think about it. (Awaclus is an example of this potential flaw in my thinking about helpfulness) Space is helpful, so I'm keeping them on the sunny side of the street.

I also find it interesting that the folks I find the scummiest (MiX and Eddie) bring my name up far more often than anyone else.  I am not sure what I think of faust being in those discussions so frequently.

What are folks thinking about Asher? Umbrage? How are they just not part of the current conversations?

Eddie, after your mom told you that telling your brother that loving him didn't mean hating you....did she follow it up with "I love you, too" or just leave that hanging out there?  She doesn't hate you, but.....

[Uncleeurope]

Yeah, she closed it out with affirming her love.

Although the quote was mostly used in the context of her congratulating a specific behavior in myself or a sibling and then having to reassure the other siblings that their efforts were not unnoticed either.

“Just because I told your brother he did a good job doesn’t mean I thought you did a bad one.”

[MiX]

Helpfulness is definitely my barometer for townfolk. However flawed that might be, its what I generally how I think about it. (Awaclus is an example of this potential flaw in my thinking about helpfulness) Space is helpful, so I'm keeping them on the sunny side of the street.

Do you ever think that you're scumreading players based on their playstyles, independently of alignment? I don't see why scum can't be the most helpful of townies, all scum has to do is nudge towards non-partners more and bam they win. Or in Space's case, implicate 2 people with an accurate VCA, lynch one and forget about the other. Seriously, that's just off.

From that post I also agree that Uncle being the only one scumreading you untill I started doing it too is off, which is actually why I started thinking you two were a team...but that feeling passed now.

I have a townread on one of ash and Snow and I see no reason to say which...it's minor, but I think it's enough for me to focus on the other 4, especially when hunting Maquis. If you have something interesting to say about them (other than "Snow was on faust all game and that was pointless!"), feel free to do so.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Being on faust all game wouldn't have been pointless if we didn't spend the whole game just giving him a pass without thinking about it.

Ironically I don't really want to lynch faust anymore, but I still want to whine about this.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

It's weirding me out how vehemently we were (collectively) hunting Garak and pushing claims earlier and that just dropped completely after a bit of pushback. I was fully expecting to have to claim and complain about how dumb it was. I'm happier to not claim, but it's weird.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: EFHW

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm also still happy with a MiX lynch, don't like the setting "traps" and "will you agree you're 100% certain I'm scum" arguments. But this is more interesting.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@faust: I don't have the time to go searching for my earlier comments but you've been pulling other people's stuff up pretty quickly, why should I bother?

@Didds: What do you think is helpful about Space's lists? Is effort the same thing as helpfulness to you?

@EFHW: What's your read on WCD?

[MiX]

Being on faust all game wouldn't have been pointless if we didn't spend the whole game just giving him a pass without thinking about it.

Ironically I don't really want to lynch faust anymore, but I still want to whine about this.

Your cases were...meh? Except his end of D2 was pretty scummy but he rectified it D3.

It's weirding me out how vehemently we were (collectively) hunting Garak and pushing claims earlier and that just dropped completely after a bit of pushback. I was fully expecting to have to claim and complain about how dumb it was. I'm happier to not claim, but it's weird.

Oh I'm just assuming ash's Garak, he's the last one to speak about it and he scumread a bunch of people for it, I don't think he wanted to claim. I suppose this is the point where I say I'm not Garak and probably confuse Joth/Glooble; no, I'm not asking you anything.

Vote: EFHW

You know, I WILL vote here, I just think that if EFHW's Maquis then Space's Maquis. But EFHW might not be Maquis...I would rather lynch Space today, however. What's your stance on Space, again?

[EFHW]

It's weirding me out how vehemently we were (collectively) hunting Garak and pushing claims earlier and that just dropped completely after a bit of pushback. I was fully expecting to have to claim and complain about how dumb it was. I'm happier to not claim, but it's weird.

This post sounds like a claim.

[EFHW]

Even if it's not, I've decided to go ahead. I'm Worf, and faust and Space are NOT Maquis. Neither was Glooble, but you already know that.

[MiX]

Even if it's not, I've decided to go ahead. I'm Worf, and faust and Space are NOT Maquis. Neither was Glooble, but you already know that.

WHAT?

What.

whispers what.

Unvote

Er.........

Vote: MiX

No, right, the partner, not me...

Vote: Didds

[MiX]

Okay that changes everything. EVERYTHING. How could I be so wrong?

Possible Maquis: ash, UoS, Didds, Uncle, raerae. Of these, Didds is clearly Maquis...my money's on snow or Uncle for the other Maquis for sure...as for MU, probably still EFHW/Space, but we'll wait for more info on that. I need to sleep on this information, hopefully I'll be back with better reads.

For the love of god don't lynch me because I have bad reads. Man I feel like an idiot now.

[raerae]

Even if it's not, I've decided to go ahead. I'm Worf, and faust and Space are NOT Maquis. Neither was Glooble, but you already know that.

Can you explain why you investigated those three?

[Uncleeurope]

Unvote

And suddenly I am much more engaged. We have a game now.

Faust and Space can’t both be scum in my eyes, which is nice.

Snow has jumped up in the runnings, MiX has also gone up in suspicion, although not for the reasons he may think.

I think Didds could easily be scum here, but am conflicted.

EFHW claiming there feels townish, like, the timing I mean.

I will vote for someone later tonight, busy now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

You know, I WILL vote here, I just think that if EFHW's Maquis then Space's Maquis. But EFHW might not be Maquis...I would rather lynch Space today, however. What's your stance on Space, again?

Even if it's not, I've decided to go ahead. I'm Worf, and faust and Space are NOT Maquis. Neither was Glooble, but you already know that.

WHAT?

What.

whispers what.

Unvote

Er.........

Vote: MiX

No, right, the partner, not me...

Vote: Didds

That's an awfully weird shakeup over the course of 3 minutes.

[WestCoastDidds]

@Didds: What do you think is helpful about Space's lists? Is effort the same thing as helpfulness to you?

Hmm...good question. The lists are helpful to me because they put information spread across the game into a single place that makes it easy to analyze. Effort is often a sign of helpfulness, but sometimes effort is not helpful. Rarely is someone helpful without effort, but I suppose it’s possible. I appreciate effort regardless. And I understand that helpfulness is subjective. What helps me may not be helpful to someone else.

Mix, yes play styles definitely color my perceptions. I’d argue that is true for most of us. Awaclus and e we’re both lynched, in some part, because of how they were playing. Awaclus definitely gets votes because of his play style in every game I’ve played with him. In my limited experience, the only time he was helpful, he was scum.

I’m not Marquis. And your assertion that I am,  framed as a sudden revelation based on EFHW’s claim, is scumdeliumptious.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Anyway, no point sitting on this I guess:

I'm Chief O'Brien, I like kayaking, mystery novels and long walks on the beach with the love of my life Bashir Keiko.
Ash, Didds, and faust aren't Mirror Universe, but that's probably useless.

[EFHW]

Even if it's not, I've decided to go ahead. I'm Worf, and faust and Space are NOT Maquis. Neither was Glooble, but you already know that.

Can you explain why you investigated those three?

LL picked Space. I had scumread on Glooble. I was thinking of faust as town because of his Awaclus exploit, but it was quite possible he would do that as scum, too. So I picked him.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@WCD: let me rephrase: why do Space's lists make them more likely to be town in your opinion?

[EFHW]

Anyway, no point sitting on this I guess:

I'm Chief O'Brien, I like kayaking, mystery novels and long walks on the beach with the love of my life Bashir Keiko.
Ash, Didds, and faust aren't Mirror Universe, but that's probably useless.

Not useless, now faust is IC.

[EFHW]

WIFOM on who Garak should protect now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If Garak has a shot left (which we don't know for sure) he should obviously protect EFHW. Most of the utility of me not claiming was to protect Worf.

Making this a WIFOM thing is super scummy, if EFHW survives two nights she's obviously SK.

(Now that's how you WIFOM...)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Unvote

Vobe: Glooble for stealing my color

[WestCoastDidds]

@WCD: let me rephrase: why do Space's lists make them more likely to be town in your opinion?

Ah, better question. When she was not-quite-town, the kinds of lists she posted where not quite helpful. In that case, they had so much information that they couldn’t quite be digested. I’m not sure why she’d bother if she wasn’t town. I don’t think the work puts her squarely in town camp, but I do find them more helpful than what MiX or Eddie have done. MiX, especially, will create truncated lists of things that I find misleading (like the D3 “remarkable” chicken wagon with just me on it).

[UmbrageOfSnow]

MiX: Why aren't raerae and I remarkable?

[SpaceAnemone]

Wow, this is good.

@UoS, that's excellent targeting on your part to give three clear results, plus yourself. That means if there is a MU team at all, from my perspective it's got to be three out of four of EFHW, raerae, Eddie and MiX. That seems really unlikely.

The PoE for catching Shraeye's buddies looks strong. With faust full-IC, and EFHW and me definitely-not-Maquis, there's not a lot of places left for Maquis votes to be hiding in the early-game wagons. The possible Maquis players are UoS, WCD, MiX, Ash, Eddie, and raerae (6 people in total, and two Maquis between them).

I still think raerae is an unlikely scum-buddy for Shraeye, because she was voting for him quite consistently in D1, then voting alongside him in D2 on a pretty short MiX wagon, which is not something two scums typically do, at least in all the wagon-gazing I do in non-multiball setups.

If we assume that raerae isn't Maquis, then the game state at #750 looks interesting. At that point, 4/6 of the not-definitely-non-Maquis are all voting EFHW (who may still technically have been LaLight at that point, but my vote list says EFHW, so let's roll with that). The two off-wagon are Ash and raerae. It seems unlikely that all three will be on a wagon that's relatively small in the scheme of the overall game, so I think looking for an off-wagon scum is reasonable, and Ash is the best fit for that.

WCD is clearly a likely candidate, given that EFHW cannot herself be Maquis.. so either e really had a five-towns-on-town wagon that the Maquis just didn't want to join for some reason, or WCD was the Maquis that joined. She was also an early supporter of the Robz wagon. Either that got to nine-towns-on-town all by itself, or one of WCD and UoS was an early supporter.

[SpaceAnemone]

@UoS, that's excellent targeting on your part to give three clear results, plus yourself. That means if there is a MU team at all, from my perspective it's got to be three out of four of EFHW, raerae, Eddie and MiX. That seems really unlikely.

Sorry.. I should have fleshed that out a bit more. I mean it's unlikely that there's a MU team because the PoE is strong. I also really don't see MiX and raerae being buddies, which narrows the options.

So given that there's pretty strong evidence in favour of a single SK, I think trying to make use of the strong PoE EFHW's results give us makes hunting for Shraeye's buddies the best thing to do for the moment, hence the rest of my post.

[SpaceAnemone]

Rereading Space it's very very clear that they stop pushing the "EFHW or E is scum" case, even though it only became stronger after E's flip. It looks, well, out of place, because I just used that expression, I would assume Space would be all over EFHW right now. Like, really, Space stopped doing that because, and I quote:

EFHW's play so far in D4 seems towny enough.

And hmm that's it. Space, how, exactly, is EFHW towny?

I think she looks even more townie now than she did earlier :-) Are you convinced now that she feels like someone who's playing with town's interests at heart, or are you asking me to dig back through her earlier D4 posts to try and work out exactly what combinations of words from her gave me that impression in case you think I was making it up?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'd actually like you to answer that please, Space.

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's a snapshot of the voting near the end of D2, which kind of confuses my wagon analysis. I'm using teal for people (me and EFHW) who are confirmed non-Maquis but from the PoV of the rest of you are not ICs:

#1316
MiX (5): raerae, Chickenwarlord, ashersky, Shraeye, WestCoastDidds
Awaclus (3): faust, Glooble, DatSwan
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (4): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX
Uncleeurope (1): SpaceAnemone
SpaceAnemone (1): Uncleeurope

With MiX the leading wagon, and Shraeye on his tail along with both Ash and WCD, whom I find suspicious, I think MiX is in general less likely to be part of the Maquis faction, especially when faust is a valid other wagon to be pushing. OTOH, Ash, Shraeye and WCD all being there in a row on MiX's wagon isn't a usual configuration for a three-person scum-team, so something's suspicious. I feel like one likely resolution is that MiX is town and that maybe one of UoS and Eddie are Maquis in place of one of WCD and Ash.

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m curious to see what raerae thinks of Space’s analysis in regard to MiX...

[SpaceAnemone]

I'd actually like you to answer that please, Space.

Okay.. brief response now, because EFHW isn't really someone we need to spend time re-reading right now. Anyway, here's a 10-mins-of-re-reading overview if what felt townie to me about EFHW in the earlier part of D4:

1) She makes common-sense points in the claiming discussion, which doesn't feel like someone acting with a hidden agenda. This is clear when she engages with the discussions surrounding whether or not there should be a Garak claim, whether cops should claim etc.
2) She seems to resist being baited into making stronger statements than she feels comfortable with, in a situation where I think scum could twist minor reads into reasons to lay down an easy vote. (#1916).
3) She seems to be confident in her manner, e.g. at #1939 and #1940, but generally throughout early D4. I think is easier to pull off as someone who knows that they have content to help town, rather than someone who's got a hidden agenda they're trying to manipulate town into assisting with.

There's probably more, but #3 covers the bulk of it. She just came into the day feeling like she meant business. It probably helps that she was even then in possession of information that I'm not Maquis, and so wasn't throwing a lot of her scrutiny my way. Yes, that's probably a bias of mine.

[SpaceAnemone]

I’m curious to see what raerae thinks of Space’s analysis in regard to MiX...

Bear in mind I'm looking for Maquis only with that recent bit of analysis. I still think MiX is throwing mud, stirring trouble and trying to make ridiculously under-supported cases stick, and none of that is towny.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Vote: Ash

[Uncleeurope]

I think it’s worth noting that Faust isn’t technically an IC.

That being said, I think it is in our best interest to treat him as such.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Under what circumstances is faust scum?

[Uncleeurope]

Vote: Ash

Why didn’t you want to claim, Snow?

PPE: Rogue bus driver.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Already said, protecting Worf was important and every additional claim was making that worse.

[Uncleeurope]

Already said, protecting Worf was important and every additional claim was making that worse.

But you were opposed to everyone claiming as well, do you think EFHW’s claim was a mistake?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I absolutely think EFHW's claim was a mistake.

I'm glad you like my Ash case btw.

[Uncleeurope]

I absolutely think EFHW's claim was a mistake.

I'm glad you like my Ash case btw.

It speaks to me.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If she'd been the lynch, she'd have had to claim anyway, but that wasn't looking that likely when she claimed.

[Uncleeurope]

Should she have claimed if one of her cop targets were on the stand?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Depends on the target. If we were actually about to go through with a faust lynch, yeah that's maybe worth the claim when you also consider the no-SK-in-Ferengi angle. To protect Space, I wouldn't have, but I see the argument for it.

An additional town result is actually worth slightly more than a current town result, and the chance for it to be a guilty is way better than that. I'd have let Space die with just pushing the townread without the claim.

So yeah, no, let the townreads die and complain about how bad town is after the fact is the right play.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Anyway, MiX was looking like the most likely lynch at the time. EFHW just got the tiniest amount of pressure. It's survivalistic.

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote: Ash

Why Ash?

[raerae]

I’m curious to see what raerae thinks of Space’s analysis in regard to MiX...

I am having a very difficult time seeing town!MiX.  And saying "shraeye wouldn't do this to a scum buddy" holds zero weight with me because he would and, if I were more intrepid, I'm certain I could find a game where he did.  The fact that MiX's lynch has been derailed three days in a row now is really bothering me.  Maybe I'm wrong about him being shraeye's partner but I'm not wrong about him being scum.  We've managed to lynch town every other day while MiX is being, at best, anti-town, why won't his lynch go through?  Somebody has to be protecting him.  Earlier today I started thinking that it might be faust and EFHW but clearly that's wrong.  Basically, I don't know whether I'm being stubborn or just bad at convincing people I'm right.  Probably both. 

[raerae]

It is correct that faust cannot be scum of any type, right?

Can't be SK because of neighborhood.

Can't be MQ because of EFHW.

Can't be MU because of UoS.

[Uncleeurope]

As long as there weren’t bus driving scenarios then you are correct, it is extremely unlikely that he is scum.

[raerae]

As long as there weren’t bus driving scenarios then you are correct, it is extremely unlikely that he is scum.

Ughhhhhhhhh, buses don't even have seat belts, why are they allowed??

[raerae]

Okay, okay, okay, claims aside, nothing (other than probably faust) changes today, right?  We still need to hit scum, EFHW and UoS could still be scum and should, as far as I'm concerned, still be on the lunch table.  Like, lower down by the sides nobody really wants to eat, like a lime Jell-O, carrot, and cottage cheese salad but there nonetheless, right?

So we've got the following with a faust wildcard:

Possible MU EFHW Space MiX UncleEddie raerae

Possible MQ UoS Didds MiX Ash Uncle raerae

We should still be looking for shraeye's partners so we're lynching from the Maquis side of life. 

UoS, probably shouldn't be our first pick unless he scumslips real hard. 
Didds, I have no argument either for or against which probably isn't great at this point in the game.
MiX, total townread.  Definitely not lying.  Zero sarcasm detected.
Ash, honestly my gut still says town.  I have nothing concrete to support this.
Uncle, also still reading town.  He's significantly different than last game where he was scum.  Obvious conclusion is obvious.
raerae, obviously I'm going to say I'm town, this is why I hate including myself on lists like this.

Vote: MiX

From the MU side, I think Space might be shady and, like I mentioned before, I was beginning to mistrust EFHW.

[Uncleeurope]

I'd like to clarify that, while he isn't technically an IC, it would be unfair to call him a wildcard.

I've been townreading him, I just wanted to put that out there so people weren't blindsided by the possibility in the future.

Regarding your MQ list, so obviously 2/6 of those are bad, which two would you bank on? Presumably MiX and...? From your list there it looks like Didds, maybe? Or UoS?

[raerae]

I'd like to clarify that, while he isn't technically an IC, it would be unfair to call him a wildcard.

I've been townreading him, I just wanted to put that out there so people weren't blindsided by the possibility in the future.

Regarding your MQ list, so obviously 2/6 of those are bad, which two would you bank on? Presumably MiX and...? From your list there it looks like Didds, maybe? Or UoS?

Wildcard was maybe poor phrasing, when I typed it though I was thinking, "Oh, yeah, I guess, something about this guy, maybe, whatever."  So, less suspicion than a wildcard might imply?  I don't know, he's mostly on my trusted list for now which is annoying because he wasn't four hours ago but, meh, them's the breaks.

You nailed it, MiX, Didds, and UoS get my suspicions.  If you're scum again I'm policy lynching you in every game going forward though sooooooo, you decide if you just want to come forward now or never be trusted again.

[faust]

Vote: UoS

[faust]

@EFHW, UoS: Please explain wich ight you targeted whom and why.

[faust]

@EFHW, UoS: Please explain which night you targeted whom and why.

Whoops some letters got lost to excitement. EBWOP.

[faust]

MiX is being, at best, anti-town

How?

[faust]

@faust: I don't have the time to go searching for my earlier comments but you've been pulling other people's stuff up pretty quickly, why should I bother?

I don't understand the question.

[Uncleeurope]

He is referring to you asking him to quote when he supported Awaclus and e being town. At least I think so.

[Uncleeurope]

Faust, would you mind spewing some of your hidden knowledge for finished?

AKA: Penny for your thoughts?

Vote: Snow

I assume you are still eliminating Ash as a Shraeye partner (I had forgotten about the mini-campaign)

Why is Snow your current favorite?

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 4.5

Quark and Dax are playing Tongo after hours in an empty Quark's Bar.

"I hate to sound ungrateful," Quark says. "But it seems like you people are doing a pretty bad job of running this station these days. It doesn't seem like anyone's even started to investigate my nephew's death! I'm thinking about packing up my whole operation and moving elsewhere. Cousin Gala might have a space for lease on that moon of his."

"Quark, I think the station needs you more than ever right now. Acquire," Dax says, tossing a slip of latinum into the wheel. "People need your drinks and holosuites to forget about their problems, and we have a lot of problems."

"Holosuite, that is, since your lunk of a husband confiscated the emitters for my other one," Quark says. "Confront. Anyway, it's at times like this you have to remember the 19th Rule of Acquisition: You can't make a profit if you're dead."



Vote count:

MiX (3): raerae, EFHW, WestCoastDidds
WestCoastDidds (1): MiX
ashersky (1): UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (2): faust, Uncleeurope
Not voting (2): SpaceAnemone, ashersky

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch most players. Day 4 ends at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Friday, March 29th.

[EFHW]

@EFHW, UoS: Please explain wich ight you targeted whom and why.

Already did, but in order Space, Glooble, faust. Not retyping the why.

[faust]

Faust, would you mind spewing some of your hidden knowledge for finished?

Yes.

[faust]

@EFHW, UoS: Please explain wich ight you targeted whom and why.

Already did, but in order Space, Glooble, faust. Not retyping the why.

Ah, sorry, missed that.

[Uncleeurope]

Faust, would you mind spewing some of your hidden knowledge for finished?

Yes.

Is the “Why Snow” bit too much as well?

[faust]

Faust, would you mind spewing some of your hidden knowledge for finished?

Yes.

Is the “Why Snow” bit too much as well?

Yes. I'm IC now, I don't think it is beneficial for me to share my reads at this point.

How do you feel about our little Space wagon now?

[MiX]

Vote: UoS

Do you believe there's any incentive to let Snow live 1 more day to get one more cop result? Because he might simply get NKd if there's MU...

[faust]

Vote: UoS

Do you believe there's any incentive to let Snow live 1 more day to get one more cop result? Because he might simply get NKd if there's MU...

I don't know. Do you?

[MiX]

Vote: UoS

Do you believe there's any incentive to let Snow live 1 more day to get one more cop result? Because he might simply get NKd if there's MU...

I don't know. Do you?

Yes, given that his likely parter is Didds anyway, I would rather lynch her first.

[ashersky]

I like being right.

IC!faust is whatevs, would have preferred someone harder to read (or me).  Regardless I assume he’ll take even more charge.

Please don’t give cops passes (like MiX did in his immediate reaction to efoo).

[faust]

This is the LaLight wagon as of #737:

LaLight (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, shraeye

How many Maquis are on there?

[MiX]

Please don’t give cops passes (like MiX did in his immediate reaction to efoo).

My entire case on Space fell apart and Didds became conf!Maquis in my eyes, what else would I do? Still scumreading Space and EFHW but we have much better odds lynching Maquis today, especially when you consider that they have to (attempt to) NK EFHW tonight. What should I have done instead?

This is the LaLight wagon as of #737:

LaLight (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, shraeye

How many Maquis are on there?

That is the question of the century. But a "2" answer implicates ash and raerae, which I think are town...on the other hand, "3" is just so unlikely...

I think...I'll have to sheep you. But...no, I can't see raerae as scum. So should I vote ash? Let's see where this goes first...

Vote: UoS, L-2

I hope you're right...

[faust]

unvote

[MiX]

unvote

Hehe. Must be fun to be IC. Okay, okay, I'll vote by my own reasons...but that vote count does work against a shraeye/didds/snow team.

[faust]

Please don’t give cops passes (like MiX did in his immediate reaction to efoo).

Personally I am all for giving EFHW a pass.

[SpaceAnemone]

This is the LaLight wagon as of #737:

LaLight (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, shraeye

How many Maquis are on there?

Yeah, I pointed that out at #2210. I said "the game state at #750" in my post, I'm referring to the exact same wagon, which Shraeye jumped off and onto around then. I think it's slight evidence for a Maquis between raerae and Ash.

Raerae insists we can't assume too much about how Shraeye would behave in the presence of partners, but I also think it's not just up to him, and staying on a wagon with both partners would involve the partners not losing their nerve and moving off somewhere else too. The first unflipped person to jump off that wagon was Eddie.

[SpaceAnemone]

Please don’t give cops passes (like MiX did in his immediate reaction to efoo).

Personally I am all for giving EFHW a pass.

We know EFHW can't be Maquis if she's the Maquis cop, though, right?

[faust]

Yeah, I pointed that out at #2210. I said "the game state at #750" in my post, I'm referring to the exact same wagon, which Shraeye jumped off and onto around then. I think it's slight evidence for a Maquis between raerae and Ash.

I was surpsied that I missed this, then I read the post and saw that you used the phrase "not-definitely-non-Maquis" and udnerstood why I didn't parse it at the time.

[Uncleeurope]

Faust, would you mind spewing some of your hidden knowledge for finished?

Yes.

Is the “Why Snow” bit too much as well?

Yes. I'm IC now, I don't think it is beneficial for me to share my reads at this point.

How do you feel about our little Space wagon now?

Space has decreased in likelihood significantly.

And definitely shouldn't die today.

Part of me wonders if EFHW and Space are MU buddies.

[MiX]

I like being right.

Wait...right about what?

[Uncleeurope]

This is the LaLight wagon as of #737:

LaLight (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, shraeye

How many Maquis are on there?

Yeah, I pointed that out at #2210. I said "the game state at #750" in my post, I'm referring to the exact same wagon, which Shraeye jumped off and onto around then. I think it's slight evidence for a Maquis between raerae and Ash.

Raerae insists we can't assume too much about how Shraeye would behave in the presence of partners, but I also think it's not just up to him, and staying on a wagon with both partners would involve the partners not losing their nerve and moving off somewhere else too. The first unflipped person to jump off that wagon was Eddie.

Is this a scenario where I lose my nerve voting with a partner on a target? Because I doubt that would faze me. It at least hasn’t in the past.

[MiX]

This is the LaLight wagon as of #737:

LaLight (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, shraeye

How many Maquis are on there?

Yeah, I pointed that out at #2210. I said "the game state at #750" in my post, I'm referring to the exact same wagon, which Shraeye jumped off and onto around then. I think it's slight evidence for a Maquis between raerae and Ash.

Raerae insists we can't assume too much about how Shraeye would behave in the presence of partners, but I also think it's not just up to him, and staying on a wagon with both partners would involve the partners not losing their nerve and moving off somewhere else too. The first unflipped person to jump off that wagon was Eddie.

Is this a scenario where I lose my nerve voting with a partner on a target? Because I doubt that would faze me. It at least hasn’t in the past.

No, it's when you jump ship once you realize all of your scumteam's on the wagon.

[Uncleeurope]

And I’m saying I wouldn’t care.

Every game I have played on this site has had people close off potential partners based on voting in groups together. It’s why I did what I did last game.

[MiX]

And I’m saying I wouldn’t care.

Every game I have played on this site has had people close off potential partners based on voting in groups together. It’s why I did what I did last game.

...which is why you didn't do it this game. But no you're right. I can't read you...but I think you're townier than ash, and that's all I need to

Vote: ashersky

From my perspective, (Snow/Didds) and (Uncle/ash/raerae) are scum. Given that raerae is towny and uncle seems to be townier than ash...yep, seems right.

[Uncleeurope]

I thought Didds was conf!Scum?
 And if I am reading you right you are eliminating Snow and Didds as a partnership?

[MiX]

I thought Didds was conf!Scum?
 And if I am reading you right you are eliminating Snow and Didds as a partnership?

Indeed. And that was before the wagon grab by faust, honestly didn't even see that SA had talked about it before because he didn't post it. Now I see Snow/ash or Didds/ash, before I just saw Didds/Snow

[faust]

I thought Didds was conf!Scum?
 And if I am reading you right you are eliminating Snow and Didds as a partnership?

Indeed. And that was before the wagon grab by faust, honestly didn't even see that SA had talked about it before because he didn't post it. Now I see Snow/ash or Didds/ash, before I just saw Didds/Snow

Come on it's really not that difficult.

Please give me a few lines on why you are townreading raerae and Eddie.

[MiX]

I thought Didds was conf!Scum?
 And if I am reading you right you are eliminating Snow and Didds as a partnership?

Indeed. And that was before the wagon grab by faust, honestly didn't even see that SA had talked about it before because he didn't post it. Now I see Snow/ash or Didds/ash, before I just saw Didds/Snow

Come on it's really not that difficult.

Please give me a few lines on why you are townreading raerae and Eddie.

Dammit! I blame mobile and multitasking and...sorry.

I'll answer your question when I have more time, but for raerae it's mostly because she's been relentlessly pushing me, which I think would look as super scummy after I flip, and Uncle seems completely different from M121, more gut for that.

[EFHW]

This is the LaLight wagon as of #737:

LaLight (5): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageOfSnow, shraeye

How many Maquis are on there?

Yeah, I pointed that out at #2210. I said "the game state at #750" in my post, I'm referring to the exact same wagon, which Shraeye jumped off and onto around then. I think it's slight evidence for a Maquis between raerae and Ash.

Raerae insists we can't assume too much about how Shraeye would behave in the presence of partners, but I also think it's not just up to him, and staying on a wagon with both partners would involve the partners not losing their nerve and moving off somewhere else too. The first unflipped person to jump off that wagon was Eddie.

Is this a scenario where I lose my nerve voting with a partner on a target? Because I doubt that would faze me. It at least hasn’t in the past.

No, it's when you jump ship once you realize all of your scumteam's on the wagon.

This doesn't make sense to me. I said this before, but if I'm already on a wagon and my scum partner(s) join, I'm going to assume it was for a reason. They know I am there. If I leave the wagon, it will be for some combination of reasons and not the automatic reflex MiX is painting it as.

[EFHW]

The problem with jumping on a wagon that has your partners on it is that then you have to count on town making up the rest of the wagon. You are less likely to achieve the lynch if your team is a big part of the initial wagon. So, how serious were the wagon members about trying to get LL lynched?

[MiX]

The problem with jumping on a wagon that has your partners on it is that then you have to count on town making up the rest of the wagon. You are less likely to achieve the lynch if your team is a big part of the initial wagon. So, how serious were the wagon members about trying to get LL lynched?

Multiball! That's not as true as you present it.

[EFHW]

The problem with jumping on a wagon that has your partners on it is that then you have to count on town making up the rest of the wagon. You are less likely to achieve the lynch if your team is a big part of the initial wagon. So, how serious were the wagon members about trying to get LL lynched?

Multiball! That's not as true as you present it.

Multiball doesn't really make much difference. The point is that you've given up your team's influence on the wagon actually going through by all being on it early. Better to pick wagons that have a lot of support from non-team people.

[EFHW]

So if Shraeye wasn't that serious about getting LL lynched, he could have joined the wagon with 1 or more partners on it because of exactly the assumptions you are making.

[raerae]

MiX is being, at best, anti-town

How?

Oh come on, it's everything I've been yelling about since D2, you disagree so there's no point to this question.

[MiX]

So if Shraeye wasn't that serious about getting LL lynched, he could have joined the wagon with 1 or more partners on it because of exactly the assumptions you are making.

So...you think whoever was least serious about a LL lynch is scummy? I don't get it. I don't think we can determine that anyway, maybe scum overplayed (or underplayed) how much they REALLY wanted to lynch LL.

MiX is being, at best, anti-town

How?

Oh come on, it's everything I've been yelling about since D2, you disagree so there's no point to this question.

Did I continue to do this? I know the answer but examples would be cool.

[faust]

MiX is being, at best, anti-town

How?

Oh come on, it's everything I've been yelling about since D2, you disagree so there's no point to this question.

No but there is. Right now all I am really aware of from your case is the Glooble thing, which really doesn't concern the way MiX played, so when you say that he is anti-town that means that there is more to your case that I have missed.

[raerae]

MiX is being, at best, anti-town

How?

Oh come on, it's everything I've been yelling about since D2, you disagree so there's no point to this question.

No but there is. Right now all I am really aware of from your case is the Glooble thing, which really doesn't concern the way MiX played, so when you say that he is anti-town that means that there is more to your case that I have missed.

I'll need a computer and it's going to be a wall post.

[Uncleeurope]

MiX is being, at best, anti-town

How?

Oh come on, it's everything I've been yelling about since D2, you disagree so there's no point to this question.

No but there is. Right now all I am really aware of from your case is the Glooble thing, which really doesn't concern the way MiX played, so when you say that he is anti-town that means that there is more to your case that I have missed.

I'll need a computer and it's going to be a wall post.

Ayyy, lessgo!

[MiX]

MiX is being, at best, anti-town

How?

Oh come on, it's everything I've been yelling about since D2, you disagree so there's no point to this question.

No but there is. Right now all I am really aware of from your case is the Glooble thing, which really doesn't concern the way MiX played, so when you say that he is anti-town that means that there is more to your case that I have missed.

I'll need a computer and it's going to be a wall post.

I feared this. No, no, this is so not top priority...well, whatever makes you vote somewhere productive works, maybe this is it, the day where I destroy your "case" and get NKd. Here we go, town V town battle!

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m curious to see what raerae thinks of Space’s analysis in regard to MiX...

I am having a very difficult time seeing town!MiX.  And saying "shraeye wouldn't do this to a scum buddy" holds zero weight with me because he would and, if I were more intrepid, I'm certain I could find a game where he did.  The fact that MiX's lynch has been derailed three days in a row now is really bothering me.  Maybe I'm wrong about him being shraeye's partner but I'm not wrong about him being scum.  We've managed to lynch town every other day while MiX is being, at best, anti-town, why won't his lynch go through?  Somebody has to be protecting him.  Earlier today I started thinking that it might be faust and EFHW but clearly that's wrong.  Basically, I don't know whether I'm being stubborn or just bad at convincing people I'm right.  Probably both.

Interesting... I also find him anti-town.  Space's description of him stirring the pot in anti-town ways seems apt, but I hadn't thought about the particular ways that even though he gathers lots of suspicion, that someone must be protecting. Someone (maybe EFHW?) that he is a likely candidate for the SK.  Which means no one would be protecting him, necessarily, but rather that it serves scum purposes to keep him in the, uh, mix.

His certainty that I am scum rubs me the wrong way because I know it is anti-town and serves to derail our efforts to actually pin down scum. I don't know that I have much power of persuasion, but I am pretty good at being stubborn.

[Uncleeurope]

I feared this. No, no, this is so not top priority...well, whatever makes you vote somewhere productive works, maybe this is it, the day where I destroy your "case" and get NKd. Here we go, town V town battle!

I swear, every time MiX posts it looks like he has a nervous breakdown and changes his mind halfway through and I love it.

[faust]

Hi Didds!

Who are your top two townreads among people other than me, EFHW or Space?

[MiX]

I’m curious to see what raerae thinks of Space’s analysis in regard to MiX...

I am having a very difficult time seeing town!MiX.  And saying "shraeye wouldn't do this to a scum buddy" holds zero weight with me because he would and, if I were more intrepid, I'm certain I could find a game where he did.  The fact that MiX's lynch has been derailed three days in a row now is really bothering me.  Maybe I'm wrong about him being shraeye's partner but I'm not wrong about him being scum.  We've managed to lynch town every other day while MiX is being, at best, anti-town, why won't his lynch go through?  Somebody has to be protecting him.  Earlier today I started thinking that it might be faust and EFHW but clearly that's wrong.  Basically, I don't know whether I'm being stubborn or just bad at convincing people I'm right.  Probably both.

Interesting... I also find him anti-town.  Space's description of him stirring the pot in anti-town ways seems apt, but I hadn't thought about the particular ways that even though he gathers lots of suspicion, that someone must be protecting. Someone (maybe EFHW?) that he is a likely candidate for the SK.  Which means no one would be protecting him, necessarily, but rather that it serves scum purposes to keep him in the, uh, mix.

His certainty that I am scum rubs me the wrong way because I know it is anti-town and serves to derail our efforts to actually pin down scum. I don't know that I have much power of persuasion, but I am pretty good at being stubborn.

It can be snow and ash. It's not anti-town to scumread you, where did you get that from? You're as much of a lynch candidate as the rest of us potential-Maquis folk.

It's pretty interesting that, yes, someone is clearly protecting me, but who? I don't have any leads...other than, well, not raerae. I think I should focus on that more, since I think that that person is scum, otherwise I would've died a long time ago. That's part of why I'm townreading raerae, I think scum wants to delay my lynch as much as possible because it's almost guaranteed (almost, did you hear that scum? I'm not going down!) to get lynched, based on...well, EVERYONE thinking I'm scum.

[raerae]

DAY 1:
Here he defends shraeye, calls him a townread, never did tell me why.  To be fair, I put very little stock into D1 reads but he answered everybody else's questions for everything, just not this one.

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

You missed the fact that he unvoted Uncle, didn't you?

Now, serious talk: anyone who knows Robz's meta, does he analyze setups? Does he like to break setups? Is he usually good at theory talk in general?

So, uncle claimed...well that makes him unlynchable, so he might as well be the IC for this day, right?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

And why can't shraeye be our lunch today? He seems just as on the table as everybody else?

@MiX, you never answered this, why can't shraeye be our lynch today?

D1 reads list that doesn't include the whole town but somehow does include nulls.  I still don't understand why you'd include nulls if you aren't making a list of the whole town.  Feels like there was an agenda behind it.  You gave him a pass on it.

Voting LL but telling me to vote Jimmmmm, that just doesn't make any sense.  Town don't generally advocate for multiple lynch candidates, they usually have a preference.

Vote: LL

LaLight! I forgot about them!

The world is collapsing: I agree with Uncle for once. He's right, LL's not being himself. But hold on, didn't this happen last time? And he was mason? That game is key for a lot of meta talk...

Vote: LaLight while I skim M121 to see what LL did.

PPE 2: raerae, time to vote Jimmmmmm, cmon, gotta take that deal, my vote's still there in spirit

Your vote isn't on jimmmmmm, why are you advocating his lunch and voting elsewhere. Why is a jimmmmmm vote for enough for me but not for you? Spirit votes aren't worth anything I'm this game.

shraeye finds LL's nulls suspect but didn't say boo about MiX's. 

I'm not sure Umbrage is on LaLight's scummy list, but I think I am.

LaLight's reads are a whole lot of nothing; MiX makes a good point.

How is LL having a bunch of nulls different from anybody else having a bunch?

It's the "why bother writing it?" aspect.  That and it seemed to be written in a way that sounded like a reads list.  The fact that it took me a second read to see how fluff it was raises my suspicion.

This is a point I make D1 (that day was enormous) about him being willing to vote for anybody and everybody.  That's fairly anti-town, wouldn't you agree?  He's lynch happy and doesn't seem care who dies.  He just kept jumping to the wagon gaining the most steam.  That tells me that his partners weren't on the lynch table when he's happy with every option.  Even Robz when he didn't have a scumread on him.

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

And by a bunch he really just means one really loud e that is making your wagon sound a lot larger than it is. 

Well, there's 2, then ., then 7, then 1, then 8, then 2, then 8... But I remember others talking about it, right?

As for your LL reread...well, clearly he's not active. But I really don't see an attempt at reversing that...Space did it, for example. LaLight's attempt to do so was a botched attempt to make a reads list which just has a bunch of nulls...something I expected if it was early in the day, but it wasn't. There were enough posts to talk about each person and at least say what he thought about them...we were left with barely any information about LL's thoughts and/or thought process, and that for me screams "eh, I'm not active anyway, I have an excuse to not do much this day, it's D1 anyway, 18 players how likely is it for me to get lynched", which is pretty scummy.

PPE too many, why Robz and not Jimmmmmmm? At least Jimmmmmmm has that weird comment that faust pointed out, Robz has nothing. And didn't we establish that that was part of his meta, both as town and scum? At least that's what I remember...

I'll copy faust and say that Robz votes are the laziest of them all, there's nothing on him. Nothing. Unless I missed something?? I still haven't heard e's reasons to vote for Robz!

Then why is he on your "would lynch" list???  Your reads are EVERYWHERE.  I'm inherently mistrustful of being on any lynch with you because you just keep jumping to the one gaining the most steam.  Frankly, it makes me what to vote for whoever you DON'T want to vote for.

Yes: everyone that isn't on my read list. So I'll vote for LL, Jimmmmmm, Robz, e in that order...ah and Space. And then you, if people really want to... That's all. It's a lot of people, isn't it? But I prefer a flip to nothing here, at least we should try...

Found this, not sure if it's fishing or crumbing or neither.  My gut says crumbing but I realize I'm real biased at this point.

Non-Robz lynches aren't realistically going to happen with 40 minutes left and 10 people required for the lynch to go through.

But what if we believe with our heart of hearts and the power of will?

Not even then, there's 10 people active, we would have to change pretty much everyone's mind...

Remember UoS's plan regarding Garak? Well, I like conditionals, so if I'm Garak and if I use bus drive N1, I'll target Uncle and faust.

Does this make sense? We can all do this, it's free information if the night goes wrong and it's essencially misdirection for scum, unless they know who Garak is with Odo, but they won't know that now, which means this is FOOLPROOF! Right?

PPE 1: Welp.

[raerae]

DAY 2:

This is his "case" on me and my responses, it's so clearly shuffled together nonsense, he decided he wanted me to be scum and went back to try to force puzzle pieces together.  That isn't necessarily enough to make him scummy but, as far as I'm concerned, does fall under the "Anti-Town" category but when he blatantly lies then, yeah, I'd say that falls under scummy.

What Robz post were you replying to? I...didn't find it. In fact, it doesn't exist. I am as confused as you are...you're clearly replying to this:

I do see one for raerae, just because she's not doing much, and I remember her doing a LOT more in M121, am I wrong? I don't think I am...but this could very well be null, I don't know...

You even say "I really haven't done much this game" which is a direct quote from this. I don't know what to make of this blatant mistake and I'm not sure if you're joking or not.

About no reads...you seemed to have more reads in M121, particularly you were scumreading me and shraeye through D1 (and that's all I can truly remember of you that game...), here you're not too committed to any read. But I have to admit, you have townreads, so the problem is just on scumreads.

You were sheeping shraeye when you voted for ash, right? Let me look at it again...

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

So, okay, you weren't sheeping shraeye...but who else was on him? And this is definitely OMGUS, your vote is entirely dependant on knowing that you're town, lynching someone who doesn't have a lot of interactions isn't scummy, it's just necessary sometimes. But we went over this in D1...and you didn't address it. Well I think you lost your scumread on ash, but you didn't say why, not like it matters.

Did you just ignore my question at the end? What was your reason to vote Jimmmmmmm?

That post was weird. You're being weird. I'm not as wrong as you say I am...so why all the defensiveness? Well, time for your rebutal.

I can't quote all this shit, here's the post I was replying to, we're both wrong, I should have said mcmc, you know, Robz' brother.  His was post #673, mine was #675, yours was #653 so no, it isn't clear I was replying to you by using a name you aren't associated with 25 posts later.

So me saying I haven't done that much this game is a mistake?  But isn't that why you're voting for me?

Re: M121, entirely different game, fewer players, far less setup speculation, it was easier for me to jump back into playing that because we were mostly just bullshitting.  Plus, I hadn't just led town to their demise so I was more optimistic about my abilities. 

re:sheeping shraeye and my ash vote, how can I be both sheeping and OMGUSing?  I'm OMGUSing on behalf of a shraeye, I'm agreeing with shraeye's OMGUS?  Dude, I hope you warmed up because you are stretching so hard right now it's insane.  Also, don't, I can't say this strongly enough, if I say something is or isn't OMGUS (or anything else for that matter), you don't fucking get to rename it so it fits your narrative better.  You don't get to decide my feelings on a subject for me.

I missed your question about Jimmmmm, I don't know why it's even a question though, I sold my vote to faust who told me to vote Jimmmmm.  His case wasn't terrible so I agreed to the deal.  This is public knowledge, why are you confused?

His response, basically laughing it off. 

I can't quote all this shit, here's the post I was replying to, we're both wrong, I should have said mcmc, you know, Robz' brother.  His was post #673, mine was #675, yours was #653 so no, it isn't clear I was replying to you by using a name you aren't associated with 25 posts later.

So me saying I haven't done that much this game is a mistake?  But isn't that why you're voting for me?

Re: M121, entirely different game, fewer players, far less setup speculation, it was easier for me to jump back into playing that because we were mostly just bullshitting.  Plus, I hadn't just led town to their demise so I was more optimistic about my abilities. 

re:sheeping shraeye and my ash vote, how can I be both sheeping and OMGUSing?  I'm OMGUSing on behalf of a shraeye, I'm agreeing with shraeye's OMGUS?  Dude, I hope you warmed up because you are stretching so hard right now it's insane.  Also, don't, I can't say this strongly enough, if I say something is or isn't OMGUS (or anything else for that matter), you don't fucking get to rename it so it fits your narrative better.  You don't get to decide my feelings on a subject for me.

I missed your question about Jimmmmm, I don't know why it's even a question though, I sold my vote to faust who told me to vote Jimmmmm.  His case wasn't terrible so I agreed to the deal.  This is public knowledge, why are you confused?

Ha. I have to admit I didn't look for whatever post you where refering to, I just found a good non-Robz that I remembered (because I wrote it). Well that's awkward.

About M121...okay? Different game makes sense? But I don't know, I had my share of completely misreading every player there...of course it didn't matter as much as your reads, but, yeah; and all I want to do is read even more players, in case I actually get it right. Shouldn't excuse you for D1, but fine...that whole post is a pretty big reaction that can hopefully be used later, so I don't need to push you more.

It's not really sheeping as it is going to a wagon where shraeye was, since shraeye was pretty towny it would be reasonable to expect it to grow. Your reason to vote ash was discredited by mcmc a few posts later, but you didn't talk about it or move immediatly; you did, however, look for alternatives (that is, you wanted to vote for Jimmmmmmm).

I don't see why you would have to be honest with your reason to vote for people if you're scum, thus I see no reason to believe if a vote was OMGUS or not based on what you say. Right? Am I being confusing here? Not that you gain anything by lying, but you're always lying when voting as scum anyway and this is no different.

As for Jimmmmmm, why did you sell your vote to faust? Why not e, me, shraeye, I don't know, anyone else? And did you simply sheep his case or did you see anything else that was scummy? That's the answer I wanted, "why did you vote for Jimmmmm" is a good catch-all question for that, I think.

I hope this back-to-back posting gives information about me and raerae? I'll read what raerae said here critically later, I have to sleep now

PPE 1: I have no idea what happened in drunk mafia...so tired...

He folded on my case and his case on Awaclus after receiving the tiniest amount of pressure.

D2cont./3/4:
My kid has developed a nasty diaper rash in the last couple hours so he's running around pantsless and I'm trying to prevent accidents.
 Also, I have to work the evening shift so this is the best you're going to get.

Glooble's only scumread was MiX, I know how you feel about my Glooble case so, again, not sure why you wanted me to do this.

His commuter thing.  Blatantly false, clearly baiting the commuter to come in and open a conversation on it. 

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

The other thing is, again, that he's still alive.  I'm not that dangerous, I'm not a faust, I'm not an Ash, or Robz or anybody else like that, there's zero reason for scum to protect him unless he's a partner.  I'm not saying I'm a slouch but really, nobody other than MAYBE shraeye is concerned with me reading them.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi Didds!

Who are your top two townreads among people other than me, EFHW or Space?

Hi faust! How delightful to be an IC!

Raerae... then maybe Ash? But with so many scum left and so few town left, I’m not sold on EFHW and Space.  I feel pretty good about you, raerae, EFHW, and me.  Not so good about the rest.

[raerae]

Why does EFHW get towncred?

[Uncleeurope]

Hi Didds!

Who are your top two townreads among people other than me, EFHW or Space?

Hi faust! How delightful to be an IC!

Raerae... then maybe Ash? But with so many scum left and so few town left, I’m not sold on EFHW and Space.  I feel pretty good about you, raerae, EFHW, and me.  Not so good about the rest.

Wait, are you pro EFHW or anti EFHW?

[MiX]

Ooooooh boy, here it comes, lynched-or-NKd, here we go!

DAY 1:
Here he defends shraeye, calls him a townread, never did tell me why.  To be fair, I put very little stock into D1 reads but he answered everybody else's questions for everything, just not this one.

Anyway, care to guess why I voted for faust?

You missed the fact that he unvoted Uncle, didn't you?

Now, serious talk: anyone who knows Robz's meta, does he analyze setups? Does he like to break setups? Is he usually good at theory talk in general?

So, uncle claimed...well that makes him unlynchable, so he might as well be the IC for this day, right?

Vote: raerae, I happen to like e's reason to townread shraeye, and your vote seems like a good way to not play RVS, since he's not dying today.

And why can't shraeye be our lunch today? He seems just as on the table as everybody else?

@MiX, you never answered this, why can't shraeye be our lynch today?

Everyone was townreading shraeye, it was the hot stuff! And yes, I did answer that, I was townreading shraeye and townreading E who was townreading shraeye, I didn't think he would ever be lynched that day. And I was right, he recieved basically no attention that day (or any day, really).

D1 reads list that doesn't include the whole town but somehow does include nulls.  I still don't understand why you'd include nulls if you aren't making a list of the whole town.  Feels like there was an agenda behind it.  You gave him a pass on it.

Voting LL but telling me to vote Jimmmmm, that just doesn't make any sense.  Town don't generally advocate for multiple lynch candidates, they usually have a preference.

Vote: LL

LaLight! I forgot about them!

The world is collapsing: I agree with Uncle for once. He's right, LL's not being himself. But hold on, didn't this happen last time? And he was mason? That game is key for a lot of meta talk...

Vote: LaLight while I skim M121 to see what LL did.

PPE 2: raerae, time to vote Jimmmmmm, cmon, gotta take that deal, my vote's still there in spirit

Your vote isn't on jimmmmmm, why are you advocating his lunch and voting elsewhere. Why is a jimmmmmm vote for enough for me but not for you? Spirit votes aren't worth anything I'm this game.

I said it twice and then I'm pretty sure I reposted it when you asked it D1, I made a list with only the people I thought were lynch candidates, talking about anyone else was utterly pointless unless I wanted them dead, which at that point I did not (those people were LL, Jimmmmm and Space, which I did adress). I didn't really have a preference because my scumreads were mostly based on inactivity, but I did prioritize Space-LL-Jimmmmm with an emphasis on getting a lynch done on D1.

shraeye finds LL's nulls suspect but didn't say boo about MiX's. 

I'm not sure Umbrage is on LaLight's scummy list, but I think I am.

LaLight's reads are a whole lot of nothing; MiX makes a good point.

How is LL having a bunch of nulls different from anybody else having a bunch?

It's the "why bother writing it?" aspect.  That and it seemed to be written in a way that sounded like a reads list.  The fact that it took me a second read to see how fluff it was raises my suspicion.

Wait, I thought you said shraeye didn't interact with his partners in a particular way. Confused? My readlist also had more information than LL's, and shraeye clearly wanted to push for that lynch, so he ignored mine.

This is a point I make D1 (that day was enormous) about him being willing to vote for anybody and everybody.  That's fairly anti-town, wouldn't you agree?  He's lynch happy and doesn't seem care who dies.  He just kept jumping to the wagon gaining the most steam.  That tells me that his partners weren't on the lynch table when he's happy with every option.  Even Robz when he didn't have a scumread on him.

vote: LL

What do you have to say now that there's a bunch of people trying to lynch you? Can you explain how you've been pro-town D1, for example?

And by a bunch he really just means one really loud e that is making your wagon sound a lot larger than it is. 

Well, there's 2, then ., then 7, then 1, then 8, then 2, then 8... But I remember others talking about it, right?

As for your LL reread...well, clearly he's not active. But I really don't see an attempt at reversing that...Space did it, for example. LaLight's attempt to do so was a botched attempt to make a reads list which just has a bunch of nulls...something I expected if it was early in the day, but it wasn't. There were enough posts to talk about each person and at least say what he thought about them...we were left with barely any information about LL's thoughts and/or thought process, and that for me screams "eh, I'm not active anyway, I have an excuse to not do much this day, it's D1 anyway, 18 players how likely is it for me to get lynched", which is pretty scummy.

PPE too many, why Robz and not Jimmmmmmm? At least Jimmmmmmm has that weird comment that faust pointed out, Robz has nothing. And didn't we establish that that was part of his meta, both as town and scum? At least that's what I remember...

I'll copy faust and say that Robz votes are the laziest of them all, there's nothing on him. Nothing. Unless I missed something?? I still haven't heard e's reasons to vote for Robz!

Then why is he on your "would lynch" list???  Your reads are EVERYWHERE.  I'm inherently mistrustful of being on any lynch with you because you just keep jumping to the one gaining the most steam.  Frankly, it makes me what to vote for whoever you DON'T want to vote for.

Yes: everyone that isn't on my read list. So I'll vote for LL, Jimmmmmm, Robz, e in that order...ah and Space. And then you, if people really want to... That's all. It's a lot of people, isn't it? But I prefer a flip to nothing here, at least we should try...

Finding nothing isn't saying he's town. Robz was null, perfectly null, I'm fine with null lynches, just not with everyone scumreading him. I wasn't going to let a no-lynch happen D1, so I was on board every lynch. Notice how I only (attempted to) enter it right when it was absolutely guaranteed.

Found this, not sure if it's fishing or crumbing or neither.  My gut says crumbing but I realize I'm real biased at this point.

Non-Robz lynches aren't realistically going to happen with 40 minutes left and 10 people required for the lynch to go through.

But what if we believe with our heart of hearts and the power of will?

Not even then, there's 10 people active, we would have to change pretty much everyone's mind...

Remember UoS's plan regarding Garak? Well, I like conditionals, so if I'm Garak and if I use bus drive N1, I'll target Uncle and faust.

Does this make sense? We can all do this, it's free information if the night goes wrong and it's essencially misdirection for scum, unless they know who Garak is with Odo, but they won't know that now, which means this is FOOLPROOF! Right?

PPE 1: Welp.

That's me trying to make a pro-town move that has no downsides. In retrospect it was probably really stupid, but it felt flawless at the time, as I've said. Just to be sure, you're talking about the bolded part, right?


If people don't want me to post the entire wall post to reply to it, say it NOW, because I'm about to do the same for the other days.

[MiX]

DAY 2:

This is his "case" on me and my responses, it's so clearly shuffled together nonsense, he decided he wanted me to be scum and went back to try to force puzzle pieces together.  That isn't necessarily enough to make him scummy but, as far as I'm concerned, does fall under the "Anti-Town" category but when he blatantly lies then, yeah, I'd say that falls under scummy.

Yeah I'm not quoting all that for sanity reasons. So basically I was rereading D1, found someone who hadn't done much, went investigating and found that that...there was nothing. But a lot of posts! That felt scummy. Then everyone said that's part of your town meta and...well...that wasn't what I remembered. There's also the fact that you feel...completely different from M121, but you've explained that...but only after I made the case, of course. And then you have the nerve to say I'm scummy because I backed off...that's just...no. No, you can't say I'm scummy for making the case and I'm scummy for dropping it. I'm a human being, I make mistakes, I change my mind, I listen to other's arguments, I learn and I realize when I'm wrong. I was wrong. So I backed off. What's so scummy about it?

He folded on my case and his case on Awaclus after receiving the tiniest amount of pressure.

You know, shraeye said the same. Everyone, for some reason, assumed I had a scumread on Awaclus. Why? I had said nothing of the sort, I simply asked questions and he answered them in a towny way. I was actually townreading him before, but no, you have to make a paralel to my botched case on raerae (yourself, not sure which way's better wording) to, I don't know, make it all tie up nicely...It's frankly stupid but I understand, everyone seems to scumread Awaclus, I was pulled into it too, I get it...but it's not what I was feeling at the time and it's a bit ridiculous that that's what everyone assumed.

D2cont./3/4:
My kid has developed a nasty diaper rash in the last couple hours so he's running around pantsless and I'm trying to prevent accidents.
 Also, I have to work the evening shift so this is the best you're going to get.

Glooble's only scumread was MiX, I know how you feel about my Glooble case so, again, not sure why you wanted me to do this.

His commuter thing.  Blatantly false, clearly baiting the commuter to come in and open a conversation on it. 

COMMUTER SHOULD NOT CLAIM WHETHER OR NOT THEY'VE USED THEIR SHOT YET! if we claim.

Jeez, chicken's dead, you don't need to yell at town like that. Of course everyone should assume commuter never commuted since we've always had 2 kills and all vigs are dead.

If it's false you should explain it to me instead of saying "Blatantly false". I still think it's true. Why is it not? Please explain.

The other thing is, again, that he's still alive.  I'm not that dangerous, I'm not a faust, I'm not an Ash, or Robz or anybody else like that, there's zero reason for scum to protect him unless he's a partner.  I'm not saying I'm a slouch but really, nobody other than MAYBE shraeye is concerned with me reading them.

Approach it the other way around: if I'm town, why am I alive? And the answer will come out easily: because it's SO easy to push my mislynch that why bother? Scum has every intentions to let me slide across the days untill one of their own is in trouble, because when that happens they can simply say "MiX is scum lol" and bam free mislynch. I also seem to have the worst reads so I'm a good person to carry to LyLo, but I doubt I'm living that far.

There's also another hilarious answer: scum thinks the other scumteam's on my wagon. I've been trying to deal with this hypothesis for a long time, really, and I think it's time it comes out to the world: every VCA might be wrong because scum's scared the other scum's on the wagon. I've been discarding this idea over and over but it keeps coming back, and I think that's actually why I'm still alive. The problem here is that I think it makes scum not converge all on 1 wagon, which contradicts the LL wagon early D1 that we've recently discussed...


Okay, everyone can look at these post and think for themselves, my life is in your hands.

[MiX]

Unvote, the only Maquis team that follows all the restriction I'm doing is (Uncle, Didds), which means I need to slow down and analyze more. Much, much more. Not ready to vote yet.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Everyone was townreading shraeye, it was the hot stuff! And yes, I did answer that, I was townreading shraeye and townreading E who was townreading shraeye, I didn't think he would ever be lynched that day. And I was right, he recieved basically no attention that day (or any day, really).

Why were you townreading e on D1?

[EFHW]

Why do scum care if other scum are on a wagon?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Approach it the other way around: if I'm town, why am I alive? And the answer will come out easily: because it's SO easy to push my mislynch that why bother? Scum has every intentions to let me slide across the days untill one of their own is in trouble, because when that happens they can simply say "MiX is scum lol" and bam free mislynch. I also seem to have the worst reads so I'm a good person to carry to LyLo, but I doubt I'm living that far.

So why do you think scum is protecting you then?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Please don’t give cops passes (like MiX did in his immediate reaction to efoo).

Who do you think was in danger of giving me a pass based on my claim?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh, MiX I guess, he voted me so soon afterwards I didn't parse that. Still, do you really think that's a thought other people were going to latch onto?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

@WCD: Is it anti-town to scumread you in general or is it something about how MiX did it?

[MiX]

Everyone was townreading shraeye, it was the hot stuff! And yes, I did answer that, I was townreading shraeye and townreading E who was townreading shraeye, I didn't think he would ever be lynched that day. And I was right, he recieved basically no attention that day (or any day, really).

Why were you townreading e on D1?

I metaread him and he felt like he was doing normal town!e things. Minor, but...better than what I had on others for townieness.

Why do scum care if other scum are on a wagon?

Well, they really don't want to get caught by PoE ("oh look at all of these unflipped players!"), and it's pretty much a double-edged sword: if the other scum flips, great, but if yours flip it's good for the other scumteam. Seems risky and pretty much always makes a scum flip, which is worse than town flip IMO (except the first scum, that's better for the scumteam that didn't lose a buddy, but those can happen at night).

Approach it the other way around: if I'm town, why am I alive? And the answer will come out easily: because it's SO easy to push my mislynch that why bother? Scum has every intentions to let me slide across the days untill one of their own is in trouble, because when that happens they can simply say "MiX is scum lol" and bam free mislynch. I also seem to have the worst reads so I'm a good person to carry to LyLo, but I doubt I'm living that far.

So why do you think scum is protecting you then?

Because we weren't close to their scumteam? The wagons D3 sorta exemplify that, 3 townies that we were sure were scum. Pretty much everyone who has been getting suspicion is either me or dead, so they have no reason to lynch me yet. Why protect me? I don't know, sounds like a fun gambit, let MiX live more and dig his own grave, then we'll push his lynch when it's time. I would do it. If this actually happened then it was decided N2. It's hard to believe, I suppose...but do you see any other explanation? I get why raerae's thinking the way she's thinking, it's what I would think in her position too, but I know otherwise, so...yeah.

Oh, MiX I guess, he voted me so soon afterwards I didn't parse that. Still, do you really think that's a thought other people were going to latch onto?

Did I ever townread you for it? I was and am always hunting for Maquis, so I didn't even parse your claim as towny/scummy.

[MiX]

I feared this. No, no, this is so not top priority...well, whatever makes you vote somewhere productive works, maybe this is it, the day where I destroy your "case" and get NKd. Here we go, town V town battle!

I swear, every time MiX posts it looks like he has a nervous breakdown and changes his mind halfway through and I love it.

I missed this post. Let me just save it...

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Oh, regarding my targets, they're in the order I listed them
Ash N1 because I find him hard to read and despite how people talk about him, I can't remember the last time he got NKed early. WCD based on my logic toward the end of D2, was debating WCD, shraeye, and raerae I settled on WCD as the most likely scum of the 3 at that point. At this point I'm townreading raerae by the way. Faust on N3 because it became apparent scum weren't actually going to kill him and I had that hope I'd get a guilty and could just not have to reread him and lynch him today, especially because I thought I'd always have doubts about him all game and scum were never going to kill him. Really fortuitous targeting from EFHW there on ICing him.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Because we weren't close to their scumteam? The wagons D3 sorta exemplify that, 3 townies that we were sure were scum. Pretty much everyone who has been getting suspicion is either me or dead, so they have no reason to lynch me yet. Why protect me? I don't know, sounds like a fun gambit, let MiX live more and dig his own grave, then we'll push his lynch when it's time. I would do it. If this actually happened then it was decided N2. It's hard to believe, I suppose...but do you see any other explanation? I get why raerae's thinking the way she's thinking, it's what I would think in her position too, but I know otherwise, so...yeah.

Why is this a reason for scum to protect you and for this to be something you're interested in looking for as a means of scumhunting?

[MiX]

Because we weren't close to their scumteam? The wagons D3 sorta exemplify that, 3 townies that we were sure were scum. Pretty much everyone who has been getting suspicion is either me or dead, so they have no reason to lynch me yet. Why protect me? I don't know, sounds like a fun gambit, let MiX live more and dig his own grave, then we'll push his lynch when it's time. I would do it. If this actually happened then it was decided N2. It's hard to believe, I suppose...but do you see any other explanation? I get why raerae's thinking the way she's thinking, it's what I would think in her position too, but I know otherwise, so...yeah.

Why is this a reason for scum to protect you and for this to be something you're interested in looking for as a means of scumhunting?

You might have to be more specific, I think I just answered that first part? The scumhunting part is just...I don't think scum would all unite in scumreading me (heavily, everyone loves scumreading me but some more than others), so it should eliminate some scumteams. Minor, very minor, part of why I didn't pay attention to it, but still, better than nothing.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Why were you townreading e on D1?

I metaread him and he felt like he was doing normal town!e things. Minor, but...better than what I had on others for townieness.

So how come when you reread people's reasons for voting Robz on D1, you didn't ever look at the leadup to my sheeping e if this was some big townread of yours? You didn't really note that I must have developed a townread on e in there, I was curious about this back on D2 and it's pretty clear you didn't consider it. Especially as I thought there was a good reason to townread e based on his reactions to his wagon and the Robz and LL wagons. And then even after we talked about it, I seem to recall you leaving that out and making a big deal of me not explaining myself. Surely if you were also townreading e you'd have considered sheeping him too and incorporated that into consideration of why I voted back then.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I'm not really asking you a question on that at this point (and the final thing you responded to in that big post was directed at Ash, despite having your name in it.)

My point is that you're repeating thoughts other people have. Earlier you outright said that you thought scum must be protecting you and you should look for that. That doesn't really sound like the tune you're singing now (and I agree that it doesn't make much sense) and I think that is worthy of comment.

And probably a vote, but I'm not sure what the current VC is and I want to try to write up some thoughts on Ash later and see how people respond to those.

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi Didds!

Who are your top two townreads among people other than me, EFHW or Space?

Hi faust! How delightful to be an IC!

Raerae... then maybe Ash? But with so many scum left and so few town left, I’m not sold on EFHW and Space.  I feel pretty good about you, raerae, EFHW, and me.  Not so good about the rest.

Wait, are you pro EFHW or anti EFHW?

I’m finding her helpful so towncred. But she could also be the serial killer, and so not fully conf!town. So I’m mostly pro, but also wary.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This is all the reasoning I can find on MiX's e vote, admittedly didn't search exhaustively but I just reread that section of the game and the initial vote is in a post talking about other stuff. Just want this quoted for reference.

Space/MiX, could you two summarize the e case for me?

Well, I think e's scummy mostly out of a gut read: it seems that everyone I put in my "towny but not 100% town" list is scum: in M121 ss and Uncle were there (and arishipshape was even higher) and I ended D2 with shraeye as the single person in it...and now e's there. Otherwise I'm simply sheeping faust, I really like his case, it makes perfect sense...except the hammer that is, he could be a cop for all we know and wanted to not get NKd. But the rest's good. Now that I think about it, what has e done D2 and D3? I don't remember much. Well, D2 he started the lighting faust wagon but what else? I feel like town!e would be doing much, MUCH more but I'll need to reread that.

What do you think of faust?

[WestCoastDidds]

@WCD: Is it anti-town to scumread you in general or is it something about how MiX did it?

The way he did/does it. He puts me into conf!scum language and then uses it to structure all of his other thoughts. Which would be okay, I guess, if I was scum. But I’m not! So, I see it as hurting town because when/if I get lynched and then another town or two gets NK’ed, town loses. I’m town, so that is not the result I’m looking to achieve. But the two other teams (I know, might just be a team and a serial killer) could care less if town loses as long as they win. It’s one thing to keep a scummy list and I know the contingency that marks my use of language rubs lots of folks the wrong way (see Eddie calling me a waffle) might keep me on the list. But if he, or anyone else, assumes I’m scum for the purposes of reading others, that sucks for town because we’re going to lose. I don’t like losing. I don’t like losing when I’m playing badly (imperial Radch game) and I especially don’t like losing because someone else is playing badly. This is MiX playing badly.

[MiX]

@WCD: Is it anti-town to scumread you in general or is it something about how MiX did it?

The way he did/does it. He puts me into conf!scum language and then uses it to structure all of his other thoughts. Which would be okay, I guess, if I was scum. But I’m not! So, I see it as hurting town because when/if I get lynched and then another town or two gets NK’ed, town loses. I’m town, so that is not the result I’m looking to achieve. But the two other teams (I know, might just be a team and a serial killer) could care less if town loses as long as they win. It’s one thing to keep a scummy list and I know the contingency that marks my use of language rubs lots of folks the wrong way (see Eddie calling me a waffle) might keep me on the list. But if he, or anyone else, assumes I’m scum for the purposes of reading others, that sucks for town because we’re going to lose. I don’t like losing. I don’t like losing when I’m playing badly (imperial Radch game) and I especially don’t like losing because someone else is playing badly. This is MiX playing badly.

And this is Didds overreacting to someone finding her scummy, AGAIN. Seriously, if you're town, cool off! I rapidly unvoted you for a reason. If you listen to my arguments pre-Wolf claim, you'd understand why I would instinctively think you're scum. In fact I still think you are, but that's another story. I was actually using my scumread on EFHW to read others, mostly Space, weird that you flip it on yourself. Yes, of course people scumreading you hurts your team, but the problem is I don't KNOW your team... I'm biased but I'm not convinced by this argument and I wouldn't understand anyone else (you're conf!town to yourself so you can say this) thinking this is scummy.

Are you just using this post to scumread me?

Okay that changes everything. EVERYTHING. How could I be so wrong?

Possible Maquis: ash, UoS, Didds, Uncle, raerae. Of these, Didds is clearly Maquis...my money's on snow or Uncle for the other Maquis for sure...as for MU, probably still EFHW/Space, but we'll wait for more info on that. I need to sleep on this information, hopefully I'll be back with better reads.

For the love of god don't lynch me because I have bad reads. Man I feel like an idiot now.

There's posts before and after it. Are you always this scared of being lynched? I know, I know, so many trick questions, but I need a good read on you more than anything.

Also, yes, this is me playing badly. Terribly. Unless you're scum, in which case it's my big revival! Let's hope that's true.

[WestCoastDidds]

And this is Didds overreacting to someone finding her scummy, AGAIN. Seriously, if you're town, cool off! I rapidly unvoted you for a reason. If you listen to my arguments pre-Wolf claim, you'd understand why I would instinctively think you're scum. In fact I still think you are, but that's another story. I was actually using my scumread on EFHW to read others, mostly Space, weird that you flip it on yourself. Yes, of course people scumreading you hurts your team, but the problem is I don't KNOW your team... I'm biased but I'm not convinced by this argument and I wouldn't understand anyone else (you're conf!town to yourself so you can say this) thinking this is scummy.

I am not overreacting, I was responding to UoS question. I didn't say anything to you when you made this claim because I am not trying to convince you. 

In is inaccurate for you to say that you made that claim (WCD = conf!Maquis) before EFHW's results, though.  You did it at 2256.  Eddie asked you about it at 2269. So, don't make it sound like I am dredging something up from long ago.  You may have changed your mind because your vote is elsewhere currently, but again...I was responding to UoS, not you.

[MiX]

And this is Didds overreacting to someone finding her scummy, AGAIN. Seriously, if you're town, cool off! I rapidly unvoted you for a reason. If you listen to my arguments pre-Wolf claim, you'd understand why I would instinctively think you're scum. In fact I still think you are, but that's another story. I was actually using my scumread on EFHW to read others, mostly Space, weird that you flip it on yourself. Yes, of course people scumreading you hurts your team, but the problem is I don't KNOW your team... I'm biased but I'm not convinced by this argument and I wouldn't understand anyone else (you're conf!town to yourself so you can say this) thinking this is scummy.

I am not overreacting, I was responding to UoS question. I didn't say anything to you when you made this claim because I am not trying to convince you. 

In is inaccurate for you to say that you made that claim (WCD = conf!Maquis) before EFHW's results, though.  You did it at 2256.  Eddie asked you about it at 2269. So, don't make it sound like I am dredging something up from long ago.  You may have changed your mind because your vote is elsewhere currently, but again...I was responding to UoS, not you.

Perhaps I overreacted as well: I was talking about the "conf!scum" part you bringed up, which wasn't always what I thought (and I don't), as you can see before EFHW's post and when I vote Snow. I think it's weird you're focusing so much on me saying you're conf!scum...but I think you've said it too many times to be in any way scummy. Pardon my interruption of your conversation.

[Uncleeurope]

Hi Didds!

Who are your top two townreads among people other than me, EFHW or Space?

Hi faust! How delightful to be an IC!

Raerae... then maybe Ash? But with so many scum left and so few town left, I’m not sold on EFHW and Space.  I feel pretty good about you, raerae, EFHW, and me.  Not so good about the rest.

Wait, are you pro EFHW or anti EFHW?

@WCD

Did you answer this and I missed it?

[MiX]

Hi Didds!

Who are your top two townreads among people other than me, EFHW or Space?

Hi faust! How delightful to be an IC!

Raerae... then maybe Ash? But with so many scum left and so few town left, I’m not sold on EFHW and Space.  I feel pretty good about you, raerae, EFHW, and me.  Not so good about the rest.

Wait, are you pro EFHW or anti EFHW?

@WCD

Did you answer this and I missed it?

Hi Didds!

Who are your top two townreads among people other than me, EFHW or Space?

Hi faust! How delightful to be an IC!

Raerae... then maybe Ash? But with so many scum left and so few town left, I’m not sold on EFHW and Space.  I feel pretty good about you, raerae, EFHW, and me.  Not so good about the rest.

Wait, are you pro EFHW or anti EFHW?

I’m finding her helpful so towncred. But she could also be the serial killer, and so not fully conf!town. So I’m mostly pro, but also wary.

[EFHW]

I would like UoS to clarify some things.

1st you soft-claimed Garak.
Then you claimed O'Brian.
Then you said it was a mistake for me to claim.

Why did you soft-claim in the first place? And why Garak? Did you realize that's how your post sounded? You say my claim was a mistake, but it has actually been very helpful to the POE today. You can have your opinion, of course, but I'm confused why you think that when you were the one to revive the claiming topic.

You said you were trying to protect Worf. How? Don't you think it was already pretty obvious I was Worf?

Why don't you think your role is valuable? Are you convinced there is no MU and if so, when did you decide that? Also, did you not see that your results made faust IC?

[Uncleeurope]

Thanks, MiX, lots happened while I was away and most of it was wall post-ish. Appreciate it.

[WestCoastDidds]

I did, Eddie. Scroll up. I’m on my phone, otherwise I’d do it for you.

[Uncleeurope]

I did, Eddie. Scroll up. I’m on my phone, otherwise I’d do it for you.

MiX quoted you for me, you good.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space count as of #2295:

MiX (3): raerae, EFHW, WestCoastDidds
ashersky (1): UmbrageOfSnow
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (4): SpaceAnemone, ashersky, faust, MiX

[SpaceAnemone]

My thoughts on the "people protecting MiX" thing is that it's faust who's been most influential in me showing such restraint in voting for MiX. I'm finding him really frustrating to play with. However, much of what grates is not necessarily related to his alignment. Faust already called me on my bias, and I'm trying not to let it get to me.

[MiX]

I want to Vote: Uncle right now. Not only is he the only Maquis that could be on Awaclus' wagon, he's also the most likely scumbuddy for both Didds and Snow if you consider the #750 LL wagon that suggests that Didds and Snow aren't Maquis together...

More arguments: from my perspective, either Snow or Uncle are scum: otherwise, it would be (ash, raerae), (ash, Didds) or (Didds, raerae), which I believe aren't possible (raerae's pretty damn towny and by my wagon at the end of D2 I don't think ash's Maquis with Didds); with this...no, sadly I can't deduce anything else. I tried, but I can't. I'm pretty certain one of these is scum now, but that might change, like everything else. Someone stop me from changing my reads untill 18 hours have passed from now, during that time I'll be on mobile and away from my VCAs. Hopefully tomorrow I'll post everything I have on Snow and Uncle, but I don't have time to organize it right now.

PPE 1: That's also something destroying scumhunting plans to see who's not scumreading me: faust was the one defending me the most and he's the IC.

[Uncleeurope]

I want to Vote: Uncle right now. Not only is he the only Maquis that could be on Awaclus' wagon, he's also the most likely scumbuddy for both Didds and Snow if you consider the #750 LL wagon that suggests that Didds and Snow aren't Maquis together...

More arguments: from my perspective, either Snow or Uncle are scum: otherwise, it would be (ash, raerae), (ash, Didds) or (Didds, raerae), which I believe aren't possible (raerae's pretty damn towny and by my wagon at the end of D2 I don't think ash's Maquis with Didds); with this...no, sadly I can't deduce anything else. I tried, but I can't. I'm pretty certain one of these is scum now, but that might change, like everything else. Someone stop me from changing my reads untill 18 hours have passed from now, during that time I'll be on mobile and away from my VCAs. Hopefully tomorrow I'll post everything I have on Snow and Uncle, but I don't have time to organize it right now.

PPE 1: That's also something destroying scumhunting plans to see who's not scumreading me: faust was the one defending me the most and he's the IC.

I'll save you the trouble, I have also been against you being lynched in the past.

[WestCoastDidds]

I did, Eddie. Scroll up. I’m on my phone, otherwise I’d do it for you.

MiX quoted you for me, you good.

Sweet. Apologies for being terse.  Thanks, MiX.

[Uncleeurope]

Ima borrow this, because it makes me happy and I want to look back at it a lot:

Possible MU EFHW Space MiX UncleEddie raerae

Possible MQ UoS Didds MiX Ash Uncle raerae

Possible MU EFHW Space MiX UncleEddie raerae

Possible MQ UoS Didds MiX Ash Uncle raerae

Possible SK UoS Didds MiX Ash Uncle raerae EFHW Space

At least 3 scum hiding in here, possibly 5(!).

At this point it might be best for everyone else to role claim...? I am uncertain. I know that knowing who everyone is seems highly productive, but also productive for the scum . I don't know who benefits more, only that I personally would benefit, and I am feeling selfish.

I have more opinions, like a gut read on an SK candidate, and that I will never play a game with more than 1 scum team again, etc.

[faust]

I don't know who benefits more, only that I personally would benefit, and I am feeling selfish.

How would you benefit?

[Uncleeurope]

It makes me happy knowing things like that.

[MiX]

It makes me happy knowing things like that.

Tell me precisely and exactly how outing commuter and bulletproof helps town, among the other roles. This just looks like misdirection.

[faust]

We have not talked probability in a while. I am redoing those calculations trying to take everything that we know inot account. The relevant data is:

- I am IC
- ash, WCD, UoS are not MU
- the Neighbors, DatSwan and shraeye could never have been SK
- DatSwan did not target the SK N2

This gives me a result of

SK + Maquis: 84%
MU + Maquis: 16%

[Uncleeurope]

It makes me happy knowing things like that.

Tell me precisely and exactly how outing commuter and bulletproof helps town, among the other roles. This just looks like misdirection.

It might not, which is why I asked.

And said it was selfish.

[MiX]

It makes me happy knowing things like that.

Tell me precisely and exactly how outing commuter and bulletproof helps town, among the other roles. This just looks like misdirection.

It might not, which is why I asked.

And said it was selfish.

Okay, I'll answer: it doesn't. We won't magically get better reads by outing PRs, that makes no sense and it's anti-town. If you have a REAL reason to out them, something concrete that makes a certain role townier/scummier, say what it is: scum won't fake claim anyway. Otherwise this is strictly anti-town.

[faust]

Vote: Eddie

[Uncleeurope]

Oh my goodness, at least let everyone respond first.

[MiX]

Oh my goodness, at least let everyone respond first.

Where IS everyone? It's been like 7 hours since I voted and no one talked about it. Was it dead o'clock for the rest of the world too?

[MiX]

Uncle: who do you think is the Maquis team? And why? If this is hard to answer, who's the most likely partner with Snow?

[Uncleeurope]

Didds/Snow
Didds/Ash
Ash/Mix
Maaaybe Snow/MiX

[Uncleeurope]

Roughly in that order, and that is based on instinct, and not much else.

[MiX]

Didds/Snow
Didds/Ash
Ash/Mix
Maaaybe Snow/MiX

Why is raerae towny?

[MiX]

Also, why aren't you voting for Didds then?

[Uncleeurope]

I would happily Vote: Didds

See?

If I were to trust only my own opinion things would be different, as it stands, I am going to vote for who people want to vote for the most, and it wasn’t (isn’t?) Didds, so I voted Snow.

That being said, I could just as easily Vote: MiX or Vote: Ash

But I think I will stick to my Vote: Snow for now.

Also, Raerae isn’t townie. Raerae just isn’t scummy.

[MiX]

I would happily Vote: Didds

See?

If I were to trust only my own opinion things would be different, as it stands, I am going to vote for who people want to vote for the most, and it wasn’t (isn’t?) Didds, so I voted Snow.

That being said, I could just as easily Vote: MiX or Vote: Ash

But I think I will stick to my Vote: Snow for now.

Also, Raerae isn’t townie. Raerae just isn’t scummy.

Why are you useless...all your votes are meaningless. Who else would you trust? You have more information than non-Maquis folk so you can PoE MUCH better, use and abuse this.

[Uncleeurope]

I trust no one else fully in that block of 6. I trust you ever so slightly, although that is waning. But it is enough for me to resist your lynch for the time being.

I trust Didds in roughly half of her posts and think she is scum in the other half.

I had a gut scum read of Snow day one which faded and then resurged, and Ash’s comments about his hammer is far scummier than his hammer. So I am taking that into account as well.


Do you think I am scum? Or just useless? Are you going to vote for me? Or just point at me?

[MiX]

Do you think I am scum? Or just useless? Are you going to vote for me? Or just point at me?

Both and I am voting for you.

Vote: Eddie, in case people scan for Eddie instead of Uncle

[Uncleeurope]

L-2 remember

[Uncleeurope]

Also, that’s quite a flip from you saying I am probably town to voting for me. Seems opportunistic.

[MiX]

Also, that’s quite a flip from you saying I am probably town to voting for me. Seems opportunistic.

Opportunistic would be me sheeping you. I can't lift a finger without someone saying I'm obv!scum because of it and I'm tired. I'm done, call me scummy, call me scum, but right now I see a good case and the person I think is most likely to be scum not doing anything of their own.

[Uncleeurope]

What changed between you calling me likely town and voting me?

[MiX]

What changed between you calling me likely town and voting me?

Me realizing that you or Snow is scum + ash/didds is very unlikely + didds/snow is very unlikely + raerae is town. Then my gut read says didds is scummier than ash, and if you put it all together you'll realize it makes you scum.

[Uncleeurope]

Why is Ash Didds unlikely?

And when did this realization take place? This just suddenly occurred to you that “Didds and Uncle be the dinamic duo?”

[MiX]

Why is Ash Didds unlikely?

And when did this realization take place? This just suddenly occurred to you that “Didds and Uncle be the dinamic duo?”

MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds,
Awaclus (: faust, Glooble, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....
Glooble (1): EFHW
faust (2): Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow

I noticed this yesterday: I don't think this is a configuration the Maquis team would ever do.

And hmm, no, I think it's Snow/Eddie, but Didds/Eddie is also very likely, so I'm voting for the one in common.

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, fair call. Didds-Ash is unlikely.

[WestCoastDidds]

We have not talked probability in a while. I am redoing those calculations trying to take everything that we know inot account. The relevant data is:

- I am IC
- ash, WCD, UoS are not MU
- the Neighbors, DatSwan and shraeye could never have been SK
- DatSwan did not target the SK N2

This gives me a result of

SK + Maquis: 84%
MU + Maquis: 16%

This is helpful! Thank you

As far as Eddie’s desire for claims, I’m not sure what makes it more helpful now than it was 72 hours ago when it fizzled. What’s different now?

[MiX]

Oh, fair call. Didds-Ash is unlikely.

Hmmmmm, I expected you to say that they would stick together precisely because of what I'm saying. Why do you think this is not the case? I know why, but I want to see if you know too.

PPE 1: how happy were you that you got Uncle as a scumbuddy in drunk mafia? Serious question, what do you think of Eddie?

[Uncleeurope]

We have not talked probability in a while. I am redoing those calculations trying to take everything that we know inot account. The relevant data is:

- I am IC
- ash, WCD, UoS are not MU
- the Neighbors, DatSwan and shraeye could never have been SK
- DatSwan did not target the SK N2

This gives me a result of

SK + Maquis: 84%
MU + Maquis: 16%

This is helpful! Thank you

As far as Eddie’s desire for claims, I’m not sure what makes it more helpful now than it was 72 hours ago when it fizzled. What’s different now?

Just wondering if the people who wanted claims early still wanted them or not. Because the fizzling was puzzling to me.

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, fair call. Didds-Ash is unlikely.

Hmmmmm, I expected you to say that they would stick together precisely because of what I'm saying. Why do you think this is not the case? I know why, but I want to see if you know too.

PPE 1: how happy were you that you got Uncle as a scumbuddy in drunk mafia? Serious question, what do you think of Eddie?

If that wagon is something you are taking seriously then I understand why you are scum reading me. And why I should be scumreading you in theory. So yes, I understand why it is unlikely for three people to be on a wagon.

By the way, back to snow, but him being adamantly townreading two people and then bringing it up later is scummy to me. Mafia isn’t that great a place for “I told you so’s” as they often end up really meaning “Hey, guys remember this!”

That being said: Vote: Ash

[MiX]

By the way, back to snow, but him being adamantly townreading two people and then bringing it up later is scummy to me. Mafia isn’t that great a place for “I told you so’s” as they often end up really meaning “Hey, guys remember this!”

Er, when did that happen? Quote please?

[ashersky]

Honestly, that was a lot of pages for the raerae/mix thing.  I skimmed most of it.  I prefer to lynch there to make it stop.

There should be no more claims, unless forced at L-1. Role usefulness comes with anonymity.

Everyone is still scummy. What the heck.

[MiX]

Ash, I know you're Garak, but lets set aside that. What do you think of Didds/Snow/Uncle?

[WestCoastDidds]

Oh, fair call. Didds-Ash is unlikely.

Hmmmmm, I expected you to say that they would stick together precisely because of what I'm saying. Why do you think this is not the case? I know why, but I want to see if you know too.

PPE 1: how happy were you that you got Uncle as a scumbuddy in drunk mafia? Serious question, what do you think of Eddie?

I have a deep and abiding love for our beneficent Uncle of Europe born of newbie games, the birth of his nickname, owl memes, drunk mafia, his disdain for leaf water or bean water, and successfully NKing my husband.

That said, I appreciate that he engages regularly, but overall I think he is shifty and cavalier with his votes. He so thoroughly decimates any VCA that he can’t help but look scummy, and that seems strategic because he can’t be pinned down. It’s almost like a MU Awaclus.

[MiX]

That said, I appreciate that he engages regularly, but overall I think he is shifty and cavalier with his votes. He so thoroughly decimates any VCA that he can’t help but look scummy, and that seems strategic because he can’t be pinned down. It’s almost like a MU Awaclus.

Odd...I think the VCA incriminates him...heavily so, in fact. Did you do any VCA this game? Er...do you like doing those?

[WestCoastDidds]

That said, I appreciate that he engages regularly, but overall I think he is shifty and cavalier with his votes. He so thoroughly decimates any VCA that he can’t help but look scummy, and that seems strategic because he can’t be pinned down. It’s almost like a MU Awaclus.

Odd...I think the VCA incriminates him...heavily so, in fact. Did you do any VCA this game? Er...do you like doing those?

I can’t say that I do it much because I’m not sure it helps me see more clearly until things get smaller. It’s too many things to hold in my mind at once. In the post of space’s where she shows who each of us has voted for....he had voted for almost everyone. So, I find that shifty, but where he is for any moment seems flighty. He votes for three people in a single post. I learn nothing from that. I don’t know if it’s annoying or scummy, though. Again, MU Awaclus, because that is what I always think about him.

[raerae]

That said, I appreciate that he engages regularly, but overall I think he is shifty and cavalier with his votes. He so thoroughly decimates any VCA that he can’t help but look scummy, and that seems strategic because he can’t be pinned down. It’s almost like a MU Awaclus.

Odd...I think the VCA incriminates him...heavily so, in fact. Did you do any VCA this game? Er...do you like doing those?

I can’t say that I do it much because I’m not sure it helps me see more clearly until things get smaller. It’s too many things to hold in my mind at once. In the post of space’s where she shows who each of us has voted for....he had voted for almost everyone. So, I find that shifty, but where he is for any moment seems flighty. He votes for three people in a single post. I learn nothing from that. I don’t know if it’s annoying or scummy, though. Again, MU Awaclus, because that is what I always think about him.

You find that shady about him but he was exactly the opposite in our last game where he was scum. He was thoughtful, careful, and restrained. He's reading town to me exactly because of his all over nature this game.

[MiX]

That said, I appreciate that he engages regularly, but overall I think he is shifty and cavalier with his votes. He so thoroughly decimates any VCA that he can’t help but look scummy, and that seems strategic because he can’t be pinned down. It’s almost like a MU Awaclus.

Odd...I think the VCA incriminates him...heavily so, in fact. Did you do any VCA this game? Er...do you like doing those?

I can’t say that I do it much because I’m not sure it helps me see more clearly until things get smaller. It’s too many things to hold in my mind at once. In the post of space’s where she shows who each of us has voted for....he had voted for almost everyone. So, I find that shifty, but where he is for any moment seems flighty. He votes for three people in a single post. I learn nothing from that. I don’t know if it’s annoying or scummy, though. Again, MU Awaclus, because that is what I always think about him.

You find that shady about him but he was exactly the opposite in our last game where he was scum. He was thoughtful, careful, and restrained. He's reading town to me exactly because of his all over nature this game.

Right??? But the votes incriminate him this game. Not sure what to think of him, but I believe he would completely flip it this game...

[EFHW]

In the last game he had a team. I'm thinking he feels like a lone actor, more SK than Maquis.

I think I'll reread him to see if it seems plausible that he could be playing this way as town.

[EFHW]

Eddie, I can't ISO your posts. Can you put in a ShuffleIt username, or a distinguishing bit of personal text? Thanks.

[raerae]

That said, I appreciate that he engages regularly, but overall I think he is shifty and cavalier with his votes. He so thoroughly decimates any VCA that he can’t help but look scummy, and that seems strategic because he can’t be pinned down. It’s almost like a MU Awaclus.

Odd...I think the VCA incriminates him...heavily so, in fact. Did you do any VCA this game? Er...do you like doing those?

I can’t say that I do it much because I’m not sure it helps me see more clearly until things get smaller. It’s too many things to hold in my mind at once. In the post of space’s where she shows who each of us has voted for....he had voted for almost everyone. So, I find that shifty, but where he is for any moment seems flighty. He votes for three people in a single post. I learn nothing from that. I don’t know if it’s annoying or scummy, though. Again, MU Awaclus, because that is what I always think about him.

You find that shady about him but he was exactly the opposite in our last game where he was scum. He was thoughtful, careful, and restrained. He's reading town to me exactly because of his all over nature this game.

Right??? But the votes incriminate him this game. Not sure what to think of him, but I believe he would completely flip it this game...

I don't put a ton of stock in votes analysis, sorry.

[SpaceAnemone]

Eddie, I can't ISO your posts. Can you put in a ShuffleIt username, or a distinguishing bit of personal text? Thanks.

If you search for "Uncleeurope Eddie", it works to find him, because it's in his sig.

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry for my comparative silence today. Work is busy, and I have a rehearsal tonight after dinner, so I might not be on much till pretty late.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 4.6

*Thump Thump* *Thump Thump* *Thump Thump*

Kasidy Yates finds herself in a strangely-lit dream, with the dead crewmembers walking around her in a circle.

"Benjamin?" she says to one that looks like Captain Sisko.

"The Sisko is linear," it says.

"It exists in one time, but not another," says one that looks like Jake.

"Why are you talking to me?" asks Kasidy.

"The Yates is not of Bajor," says one that looks like Kira.

"But the Sisko is too linear" says the Captain Sisko one again. "It cannot influence events."

"The time of reckoning is coming" says the one who looks like Jake. And suddenly, Kasidy is back in front of the Bajoran shrine.

"You?" says Kai Winn. "They spoke to *you*? What did they say child? What did they tell you?"

"Nothing we didn't already know," says Kasidy. "I need a drink."

Fortunately Quark's is just across the promenade.



Vote count:

MiX (3): raerae, EFHW, WestCoastDidds
ashersky (2): UmbrageOfSnow, UncleEurope
UncleEurope (2): faust, MiX
Not voting (2): SpaceAnemone, ashersky

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch most players. Day 4 ends at 12 pm forum time/US ET (16:00 GMT) on Friday, March 29th.
[/quote]

[EFHW]

Eddie, I can't ISO your posts. Can you put in a ShuffleIt username, or a distinguishing bit of personal text? Thanks.

If you search for "Uncleeurope Eddie", it works to find him, because it's in his sig.

Tried that, didn't work. I'll try it again.

[EFHW]

unvote. That's not an expression of trust, more of caution.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think a few Itoldyousos are warranted when everyone spends the entire game ignoring me and blindly sheeping faust while multiple people lament the impossibility of ever lynching scum and want to claim because how could we ever proceed with scumhunting without just lynching people based on claims?

And now everyone has dropped that which is on one hand a return to sanity but why were they saying that stuff in the first place?

I really deeply want faust to be scum here, I know he can

[UmbrageOfSnow]

*know he can't be, and that makes this whole thing more frustrating.

(stupid tab button)

[MiX]

The joke here is that we were right, you were wrong, yet you want to play the "I told you so" card. So, tell me, when were you right and can you provide quotes of when you said that?

EFHW, I'm touched. But I still think you're scum. Alas, you're probably going to die tonight...so I shouldn't bother.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I would like UoS to clarify some things.

1st you soft-claimed Garak.
Then you claimed O'Brian.
Then you said it was a mistake for me to claim.

Why did you soft-claim in the first place? And why Garak? Did you realize that's how your post sounded? You say my claim was a mistake, but it has actually been very helpful to the POE today. You can have your opinion, of course, but I'm confused why you think that when you were the one to revive the claiming topic.

You said you were trying to protect Worf. How? Don't you think it was already pretty obvious I was Worf?

Why don't you think your role is valuable? Are you convinced there is no MU and if so, when did you decide that? Also, did you not see that your results made faust IC?

I was trying to screw with people trying to POE Garak, obviously. I do think it was a mistake for you to claim, as I've already explained at length. I certainly didn't force anyone to claim, and when I actually claim I claim explicitly so there's no reason that should have made you feel pressured to claim. I explicitly didn't want you to claim and that was the whole point of a lot of what I was doing. It's better for me to be the NK than you here.

It does at least save me trying to find a way to soft my 3 innocents, which I'd have had to do before the end of the day otherwise.

I'm reasonably convinced there is not MU, although it's possible, and I was convinced of that when I got another negative result and neither NK was on MU.

I think faust was pretty damn IC without my claim anyway. I wouldn't have wanted to lynch him today even without my result if you'd claimed your result, and really I'd been coming around on his towniness over the night anyway.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

The joke here is that we were right, you were wrong, yet you want to play the "I told you so" card. So, tell me, when were you right and can you provide quotes of when you said that?

EFHW, I'm touched. But I still think you're scum. Alas, you're probably going to die tonight...so I shouldn't bother.

My first response to this violates the civility pledge, so I'm out for a few hours.

[MiX]

The joke here is that we were right, you were wrong, yet you want to play the "I told you so" card. So, tell me, when were you right and can you provide quotes of when you said that?

EFHW, I'm touched. But I still think you're scum. Alas, you're probably going to die tonight...so I shouldn't bother.

My first response to this violates the civility pledge, so I'm out for a few hours.

Outch, was I too agressive? I genually don't remember proof of you being right, but pretty much all I remember from you is "faust is scum!" so that must be an unfair assertion. I suppose you think you're much more correct than I thought, so I think I'll have enough evidence of that when rereading you. Well, time for me to do some quality rereading!

[faust]

I think a few Itoldyousos are warranted when everyone spends the entire game ignoring me and blindly sheeping faust while multiple people lament the impossibility of ever lynching scum and want to claim because how could we ever proceed with scumhunting without just lynching people based on claims?

And now everyone has dropped that which is on one hand a return to sanity but why were they saying that stuff in the first place?

I really deeply want faust to be scum here, I know he can

Well I think the claims we have are very useful. What do your scumreads look like by the way?

[Uncleeurope]

Honestly, that was a lot of pages for the raerae/mix thing.  I skimmed most of it.  I prefer to lynch there to make it stop.

There should be no more claims, unless forced at L-1. Role usefulness comes with anonymity.

Everyone is still scummy. What the heck.

This is a scummy post.

[MiX]

Honestly, that was a lot of pages for the raerae/mix thing.  I skimmed most of it.  I prefer to lynch there to make it stop.

There should be no more claims, unless forced at L-1. Role usefulness comes with anonymity.

Everyone is still scummy. What the heck.

This is a scummy post.

Why?

[MiX]

Partly we just finished a game as scum together and I kind of think if Awaclus was scum here he might play along or dismiss me differently to get me to townread him. There's also something in his tone. It's hard to explain, I'm not certain I'm the Awaclus-whisperer but I'm lean-town on him here.

Thar be scum in these here players.

This faust wagon happened really fast and I'm not super into it.

Hard no on that bs faust wagon. What in the actual hell??

faust wagon materializing out of nowhere stinks real bad.

The faust wagon is stinking up the joint!

And then he mentions he was townreading E but I don't actually see that explicitly said in D3. But I do in the other days, so okay. I guess Snow's more right throughout the game than I thought.

[Uncleeurope]

Honestly, that was a lot of pages for the raerae/mix thing.  I skimmed most of it.  I prefer to lynch there to make it stop.

There should be no more claims, unless forced at L-1. Role usefulness comes with anonymity.

Everyone is still scummy. What the heck.

This is a scummy post.

Why?

Do you find the thing townie?

It’s saying nothing other than soft pushing yourself and a player you believe to be town. Setting up arbitrary lynching rules like that severely hampers towns ability to find scum properly. Plus it just kind of says everyone is scummy with a shrug.


Basically, Ash has been doing everything you are scumreading me for, acusing everyone, and messing with VCA, he isn’t on ANY VCA because he never votes.

He just hammers.

I am trying to generate reactions and partner reads of protection with my votes.

And my previous floundering about claiming was to see if anyone was pro-claiming at this point, something that would have set my alarm bells off as being scummy. (Read: it was a test)

[MiX]

Honestly, that was a lot of pages for the raerae/mix thing.  I skimmed most of it.  I prefer to lynch there to make it stop.

There should be no more claims, unless forced at L-1. Role usefulness comes with anonymity.

Everyone is still scummy. What the heck.

This is a scummy post.

Why?

Do you find the thing townie?

It’s saying nothing other than soft pushing yourself and a player you believe to be town. Setting up arbitrary lynching rules like that severely hampers towns ability to find scum properly. Plus it just kind of says everyone is scummy with a shrug.


Basically, Ash has been doing everything you are scumreading me for, acusing everyone, and messing with VCA, he isn’t on ANY VCA because he never votes.

He just hammers.

I am trying to generate reactions and partner reads of protection with my votes.

And my previous floundering about claiming was to see if anyone was pro-claiming at this point, something that would have set my alarm bells off as being scummy. (Read: it was a test)

I find it incredibly scummy. Nice "test"...I don't buy it. You're good, you've successfully twisted my reads, I see an ash/snow team more likely now. Well done. Now bus your partner and get it over with.

[Uncleeurope]

Nice "test"...I don't buy it.

Yeah, well, I have the ability to play this game as scum without saying overtly scummy things. And as Snow would attest (if he's feeling helpful), I like testing people on topics as town.

Well done. Now bus your partner and get it over with.

Gladly.

[MiX]

Nice "test"...I don't buy it.

Yeah, well, I have the ability to play this game as scum without saying overtly scummy things. And as Snow would attest (if he's feeling helpful), I like testing people on topics as town.

Agreed, that was a stupid thing to say. But it was a very odd trap, I don't think it would ever work.

Well done. Now bus your partner and get it over with.

Gladly.

But you're not voting for Didds...

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, sorry, assumed you were talking about Ash, since that was who I was pushing to lynch in that post...

[MiX]

Oh, sorry, assumed you were talking about Ash, since that was who I was pushing to lynch in that post...

If you were already bussing your partner I wouldn't have to ask you to do such a thing    But seriously that whole exchange made you a tiny bit townier and I'm scumreading you for it. Yeah...

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, sorry, assumed you were talking about Ash, since that was who I was pushing to lynch in that post...

If you were already bussing your partner I wouldn't have to ask you to do such a thing    But seriously that whole exchange made you a tiny bit townier and I'm scumreading you for it. Yeah...

As you well should, If I am acting townie, that probably means I am scum. You can only trust me if I'm scum.

[raerae]

faust, are you going to comment on the MiX thing since your insistence is the only reason I did that?

[MiX]

Oh, sorry, assumed you were talking about Ash, since that was who I was pushing to lynch in that post...

If you were already bussing your partner I wouldn't have to ask you to do such a thing    But seriously that whole exchange made you a tiny bit townier and I'm scumreading you for it. Yeah...

As you well should, If I am acting townie, that probably means I am scum. You can only trust me if I'm scum.

You're correct, which means you're towny, which means you're scum, which means you're lying, which means you're scummy, which means you're town. Unvobe: Eddie

faust, are you going to comment on the MiX thing since your insistence is the only reason I did that?

At the risk of reading too much into this, why are you asking the IC to do things? I think a simple reminder's all you needed to do, but maybe that's what a simple reminder is.

[MiX]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ALL ABOUT HUNTING MAQUIS AND NOT SCUM IN GENERAL. BE WARNED.

Okay, here's my attempt at throwing everything I'm using and thinking about to see if others can reach the same conclusions as me. Obviously, I'm assuming I'm town for all of these, so if you replace me with whoever it is you are you'll obtain different information, hopefully they'll converge somewhere. So!

First, the D1 e wagon, essencially boils down to this (green means not Maquis)

2.71828..... (5): mcmcsalot, EFHW, Robz888, Awaclus, WestCoastDidds

What I've taken from this is that Didds is likely scum. I've been discarding this option because it restricts a lot and Didds was only on it half the time, which diminishes how important this is. But it still exists, so it has to be mentioned. Then the LL(EFHW) wagon, which culminates in:

EFHW (6): Uncleeurope, MiX, WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, shraeye, Glooble

Because I'm town, all I can conclude from this is that I don't think Didds and Snow are Maquisbuddies with shraeye. Maybe there's more things you can say about this wagon that rule out some other scumteams with me on it, but I don't see it. The Uncle vote here's also essencially pointless, since I don't think Maquis would necessarily put 2+ buddies or even 2-. If you think otherwise, state so, but that's all I have to say about this. Now comes Robz's wagon, of course:

Robz888 (10): 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds, UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone, chickenwarlord, DatSwan, Awaclus, Glooble, Jimmmmm, ashersky

From this I took something that will probably be controversial: Didds or Snow is Maquis. I removed ash from the wagon analysis because, as I've said D2, I think D1 wagons have much more information at the early stages and the rest of the votes (all the way from Awaclus, maybe even Swan) were just from people looking to lynch anyone. So, Didds or Snow are Maquis, maybe just ash but I doubt it, I think scum would love to be on the Robz wagon because e was pretty towny and it's incredibly easy to jump on it, as I've said in D2, this wagon's been talked about already. Onto D2! From now on I'm only using end of day wagons, if anyone feels like an intermediate wagon has some relevance, they should speak up NOW. Caps for emphasis.

MiX (4): raerae, ashersky, shraeye, WestCoastDidds

What a beautiful wagon. There's so much you can pull from it, like, I think there's two Maquis (counting shraeye) in it, but I'm not really using it to make scumteams, maybe I should? The Very Important Information to pull from this is, really, that Didds and ash aren't scum together. I sincerily doubt shraeye and Didds would hop on my wagon as fast as they did (reminder that their votes were after the fast faust wagon stunt in D2) with a scumbuddy on board, I just don't see it happening. It also removes a Didds/raerae scumteam and, to some extent, an ash/raerae scumteam as well, but I believe those are unlikely anyway. Then there's the fact that I could be Maquis, in which case I think it continues to remove a scumteam, in this case Didds/MiX (and maybe ash/MiX), but that's irrelevent to me. With D2 wagons comes the amazing Awaclus wagon:

Awaclus (: faust, Glooble, DatSwan, chickenwarlord, Uncleeurope, MiX, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828.....

He was right, his wagon isn't uninformative. This is essencially a big red flag saying that Uncle is scum, or at least that either me or Uncle is scum. This is such a poweful tool for PoE that I have to remove it in other to see anything other than "Uncle is conf!scum". For completion's sake, Snow was on faust, not sure what to make of it. To D3!

2.71828..... (7): SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, EFHW, chickenwarlord, UncleEurope, ashersky
chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): raerae, UmbrageOfSnow

I think it was...snow? that said my wagon was also interesting, so all three are useful. I was mostly using the first one, that says that there's probably scum in (MiX/Uncle/ash), but I think it also says there's probably scum in (Didds/Snow/raerae), I think this is a day where scum would split? Especially snow, he essencially has a free pass to townread e and he was inactive, which means I believe that the other scum would be on wagon. Obviously, I'm using it to say that a Snow/Uncle Maquis team is most likely, but what matters is where it comes from.


I think it's coherent to say that the teams are either Uncle/Didds or Uncle/Snow based on this, because it's what I'm extrapolating from all of this, but I think, more than ever, I need everyone's opinion on this. Especially what each maybe-Maquis has to say with a different PoE.

TL;DR: takeaway points from each wagon post, in order: Didds gains scumpoints, Didds/Snow isn't possible, Didds or Snow are Maquis, Didds/ash isn't possible, Uncle is scum(my), Uncle or ash are Maquis; all of this from my PoV, I want feedback on opinions based on other's PoEs. For me it points to Uncle/Didds or Uncle/Snow, therefore Uncle is scum.

I'm going to post my D2 analysis of D1's wagons and will compare to this. Later, hopefully in a few minutes but no promises.

[Uncleeurope]

What about Ash Snow?

[Uncleeurope]

I am becoming increasingly aware of Ash/MiX by the way

Haven’t brought it up because I’ve mainly been talking to MiX, but it’s a thing happening in my head, so there ya go.

[Uncleeurope]

I am becoming increasingly aware of Ash/MiX by the way

Haven’t brought it up because I’ve mainly been talking to MiX, but it’s a thing happening in my head, so there ya go.

Mainly because MiX removes Ash from a wagon e was on just for hammering it.

And loads of pairings MiX has been throwing out during this whole process have included Ash but I don’t remember him voting Ash once.

[MiX]

What about Ash Snow?

Ash wasn't on the Awaclus wagon. But you're right, this the third scumteam I'm considering. Given that you're not voting for Snow, I think this isn't possible. But it's more of a gut than anything.

I am becoming increasingly aware of Ash/MiX by the way

Haven’t brought it up because I’ve mainly been talking to MiX, but it’s a thing happening in my head, so there ya go.

Pretty sure your vote on ash made this incredibly obvious. But no, this makes no sense. However you're right that my VCA points to that, if you think that both me and ash would hammer together, just reread end of D1. I also remember snow saying that we can't be a scumteam D1, but I have no intention to defend ash. Do you want me to quote the snow post I'm talking about?

[MiX]

I am becoming increasingly aware of Ash/MiX by the way

Haven’t brought it up because I’ve mainly been talking to MiX, but it’s a thing happening in my head, so there ya go.

Mainly because MiX removes Ash from a wagon e was on just for hammering it.

And loads of pairings MiX has been throwing out during this whole process have included Ash but I don’t remember him voting Ash once.

Ash is the townier of all pairs with him. Also, I wouldn't be that obvious about the hammer thing if he was my scumbuddy. WIFOM!

[Uncleeurope]

Remembering another player eliminating scum teams is a whole lot easier when you know thy are wrong.

It stuck in my head for days that Faust eliminates our exact scum config in a post, and I also wanted to point at that regularly. Doesn’t make Snow right, though.

[Uncleeurope]

Remembering another player eliminating scum teams is a whole lot easier when you know thy are wrong.

It stuck in my head for days that Faust eliminates our exact scum config in a post, and I also wanted to point at that regularly. Doesn’t make Snow right, though.

Speaking of last game of that wasn’t clear.

[Uncleeurope]

I am becoming increasingly aware of Ash/MiX by the way

Haven’t brought it up because I’ve mainly been talking to MiX, but it’s a thing happening in my head, so there ya go.

Mainly because MiX removes Ash from a wagon e was on just for hammering it.

And loads of pairings MiX has been throwing out during this whole process have included Ash but I don’t remember him voting Ash once.

Ash is the townier of all pairs with him. Also, I wouldn't be that obvious about the hammer thing if he was my scumbuddy. WIFOM!

You think Ash is townier than Didds/Me/Snow?

Why? For each of them, please.

[MiX]

Remembering another player eliminating scum teams is a whole lot easier when you know thy are wrong.

It stuck in my head for days that Faust eliminates our exact scum config in a post, and I also wanted to point at that regularly. Doesn’t make Snow right, though.

Speaking of last game of that wasn’t clear.

I just reread it when looking for snow's posts, so you're wrong! Zing! But I think this means you don't remember it, I'll quote it because it demolishes your only viable Maquis scumteam, thus outing you as Maquis:

While I'm at it...how come no-one mentioned ash!plans? Severely dissapointed.

I've been waiting for someone to jump on Ash for not having a plan, or Ash to roll out some half-baked plan to satisfy the masses.

The fact that he hasn't gives me a townread on Ash here, I think he caves to his own meta as scum. The fact that you bring it up... well it cancels out the townpoints I was giving you for actually seeming to look at Faust when I mentioned it.

...
Sigh. Then I read the next page and see Ash trying to find things to make up plans about right after you post this. I guess we can get out of this that Ash and MiX at least aren't on the same scumteam...

Minor but effective!

I am becoming increasingly aware of Ash/MiX by the way

Haven’t brought it up because I’ve mainly been talking to MiX, but it’s a thing happening in my head, so there ya go.

Mainly because MiX removes Ash from a wagon e was on just for hammering it.

And loads of pairings MiX has been throwing out during this whole process have included Ash but I don’t remember him voting Ash once.

Ash is the townier of all pairs with him. Also, I wouldn't be that obvious about the hammer thing if he was my scumbuddy. WIFOM!

You think Ash is townier than Didds/Me/Snow?

Why? For each of them, please.

Ash/Uncle is incredibly unlikely, Ash/Didds is impossible and Ash/Snow, being the only possible pair for ash, means I should instead vote for the other person. You're right, he's not townier...but it still means I shouldn't vote for him. And I'm definitely not following you.

[Uncleeurope]

I don’t really care what Sbow thought day one.

So it is minor and ineffective when it comes to me.

[Uncleeurope]

And not voting for the intersection of all team reads is super scummy.

Him being dead clears or confirms every other read you have.

[MiX]

I don’t really care what Sbow thought day one.

So it is minor and ineffective when it comes to me.

Meh, I doubt you would be persuaded. It is minor, but I doubt there's more. It's a pretty wacky team, though, and I'm sure others will see that.

[MiX]

And not voting for the intersection of all team reads is super scummy.

Him being dead clears or confirms every other read you have.

Super scummy for who? I AM voting for the intersection of my possible scumteams, as are you. How does an ash flip confirm if it's Snow/You or Didds/You?

[raerae]

At the risk of reading too much into this, why are you asking the IC to do things? I think a simple reminder's all you needed to do, but maybe that's what a simple reminder is.

So I'm not allowed to ask the high and mighty IC questions? You're his keeper? I'm supposed to run everything through you first to make sure it's appropriate for his sensitive and precious ears? Please, keep me apprised of the status of my request, I'm assuming I'll receive a response in 7-10 business days?

[MiX]

At the risk of reading too much into this, why are you asking the IC to do things? I think a simple reminder's all you needed to do, but maybe that's what a simple reminder is.

So I'm not allowed to ask the high and mighty IC questions? You're his keeper? I'm supposed to run everything through you first to make sure it's appropriate for his sensitive and precious ears? Please, keep me apprised of the status of my request, I'm assuming I'll receive a response in 7-10 business days?

I should stop fooling around so much. I think faust's the type to be very mysterious when he's the IC, knowing all and saying nothing at the same time. Not sure how asking him things works out, but I wouldn't do it. We're obviously different, so this discrepency makes sense.

[SpaceAnemone]

That's a lot of MiX-Eddie chatter to dig through.

At least MiX's wagon-gazing overlaps extensively with things I've pulled out for myself. Note of caution for MiX: it's well with thinking in terms of likelihoods and probabilities when you amalgamate evidence over multiple wagon events: even if a wagon configuration is like 95% likely to have scum, and even if you can treat all wagons as perfectly independent (in the statistical sense), you don't have to look across too many before your expectation of having one false conclusion gets quite high.

One method I've used to try to reconcile these kinds of observations is to compile a list of lists-of-players, where from a given wagon, I infer that a given set of players is likely to include at least one scum. Then I take that full list and call them "soft" constraints, and then evaluate every possible scum combination against the constraints, counting the number of constraint violations for each set. Then I assume that the true scumteam configuration should be amongst the sets that score the fewest constraint violations, but it's not necessary for any combinations to score zero, and nor will the scumteam always be the hypothesized team that violates the fewest constraints.

I recall doing that pretty extensively for some recent game, but I honestly can't recall how accurate my predictions were now.. I should go back and work out what game it was.

Anyway, other wagos that are missing from MiX's post but potentially interesting:

#1015-#1091:
MiX (4): raerae, Shraeye, Awaclus, Glooble
-- this one makes me think that raerae is probably not scum with Shraeye, though I think I've mentioned it before, and I think she's insisted that Shraeye's existence next to her on the wagon is entirely non-alignment-indicative for him.

At #1261 there's a six-vote Awaclus wagon.
Awaclus (6): faust, WestCoastDidds, Shraeye, Glooble, Uncleeurope, MiX
So WCD, Eddie and MiX are on-wagon with Shraeye, and all three of the others (raerae, Ash and UoS) are on the MiX wagon, which at this point is 5 votes.

There was net drift from both wagons onto faust, so that at #1282 there is
faust (5): 2.71828....., Awaclus, UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, Uncleeurope
though Eddie doesn't stay long before he drifts off onto me, then WCD, then Awaclus.

In D3, there's a really stable Chicken wagon from #1594 right through to day's end at #1820:
Chickenwarlord (3): DatSwan, 2.71828....., WestCoastDidds
I can see that scum might prefer to take out a vet like e than a newbie like Chicken, but e was only on two votes when WCD put Chicken up to three, so it really was a long-running thing, and WCD is the only possible Maquis on there.

In early D4, I had a three-person wagon for almost 100 votes from #2095:
SpaceAnemone (3): Uncleeurope, MiX,
and at the same time, MiX also went up to three votes at #2110
MiX (3): raerae, EFHW, WestCoastDidds
and has been there pretty much ever since. A three-vote wagon is relevant when there are two Maquis out there and five to lynch. Though we're not in a lylo situation where scum can quickhammer, so I guess making that sort of a move will look ridiculously scummy, and therefor there's less to infer than I'd like. Sorry.. I may be rambling because it's really late and I'm too tired. Just wanted to get the other interesting wagons down first.

[faust]

faust, are you going to comment on the MiX thing since your insistence is the only reason I did that?

I will comment in due time.

[ashersky]

What do you think of Didds/Snow/Uncle?

I’d say 6, 6, 8.  (1-10 scale, higher numbers are scummier.)

[ashersky]

Also UE scumslipped and appears to have severe “caught me for the wrong reasons” disease.

[Uncleeurope]

Also UE scumslipped and appears to have severe “caught me for the wrong reasons” disease.

I musta missed the scum slip, but I am intrigued.

[Uncleeurope]

Also, what are the right reasons?

[MiX]

I like Space's advice; yes, I did this, except I didn't assign a quantitive value to each conclusion, only a qualitive one: for example, Didds being on LL's wagon is valued really low and Uncle being on Awaclus' wagon is being underplayed. I like the wagon pulls but I'm not sure I can take any good conclusions out of them...

Also UE scumslipped and appears to have severe “caught me for the wrong reasons” disease.

If you want to bus, you can vote... Regardless, I remember a wise man saying

You can share the scumtell...it’s sort of fair play to only use it once against a player.

So, what was the scumslip?

[faust]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

[WestCoastDidds]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

[ashersky]

In a response to MiX, UE made a statement regarding partners that read in a confusing way. I think it’s because of an attempt to obfuscate the irrepressible knowledge UE has regarding their own situation. To me, being unable to talk clearly about partners in the abstract is a sign of having partners in the concrete. Ergo, a scumslip. Like all scumslip arguments, it is not definitive and is definitely subjective.

As to the other question UE posed: a scumslip is a right reason. Seriously though, any reason is the right one. It just feels wrong when you are caught for something you legitimately may not have done.  And it is often hard to keep that feeling of being wronged out of your posts.

[EFHW]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

Who is "we"? "We are not lynching someone" is different from "we are lynching someone".

[MiX]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

Eddie, me and in some other universe Snow. The IC might have a different opinion, but he will make himself heard, faust is good like that.

Great answer: why aren't you voting for Eddie then? Let's see if I can see which post you're talking about...

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

Who is "we"? "We are not lynching someone" is different from "we are lynching someone".

Good point. "We" is probably faust, right?

[WestCoastDidds]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

Who is "we"? "We are not lynching someone" is different from "we are lynching someone".

You have articulated my question better than I did. I will blame this on the early hour.

[EFHW]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

Eddie, me and in some other universe Snow. The IC might have a different opinion, but he will make himself heard, faust is good like that.

Great answer: why aren't you voting for Eddie then? Let's see if I can see which post you're talking about...

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

Who is "we"? "We are not lynching someone" is different from "we are lynching someone".

Good point. "We" is probably faust, right?

No. And sheeping the IC is pretty scummy. He's keeping quiet to avoid people hiding behind his opinions and not stating their own.

[EFHW]

Also, the IC has a harder POE than the rest of us. We can eliminate him from our lynchpools but he can't eliminate anyone (except through deduction, etc.).

[faust]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

You tell me!

[EFHW]

I turned on signatures, and there's liopoil in faust's! Rereading Eddie now.

[WestCoastDidds]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

You tell me!

Well, I am considering MiX or Eddie. But the certainty with which you took Ash off the table made me curious, and the Royal We made me wonder if you could take Brexit off the table.

[MiX]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

You tell me!

Well, I am considering MiX or Eddie. But the certainty with which you took Ash off the table made me curious, and the Royal We made me wonder if you could take Brexit off the table.

He took Ash out the table because he's Garak. Which makes so much sense I'm sad I forgot about that. Between Uncle and me, do you still prefer my lynch?

[faust]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

You tell me!

Well, I am considering MiX or Eddie. But the certainty with which you took Ash off the table made me curious, and the Royal We made me wonder if you could take Brexit off the table.

I am the IC after all, which is sort of like being the Queen or the Pope.

[raerae]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

You tell me!

Well, I am considering MiX or Eddie. But the certainty with which you took Ash off the table made me curious, and the Royal We made me wonder if you could take Brexit off the table.

I am the IC after all, which is sort of like being the Queen or the Pope.

Or the King of the Thread.  That vote was more powerful than any of us knew.

[EFHW]

Eddie, I know it's been awhile, but can you explain what you meant here by not hurting another player?

People’s trust in me is unaffected by my claim, I am hardly an IC, and the primary reason for me not being lynched today is to not hurt another player, who might even be scum for all we know.
...

[raerae]

Is there anyway we can wrap this day up prior to deadline?  Or at least get closer than we currently are?  Going down to the wire hasn't helped us all game and, selfishly, it's looking like I won't be around for deadline again.

[MiX]

Is there anyway we can wrap this day up prior to deadline?  Or at least get closer than we currently are?  Going down to the wire hasn't helped us all game and, selfishly, it's looking like I won't be around for deadline again.

Vote for Uncle. You know it was meant to be. Unleash your anger from M121! JOIN THE DARK SIDE!

[faust]

Is there anyway we can wrap this day up prior to deadline?  Or at least get closer than we currently are?  Going down to the wire hasn't helped us all game and, selfishly, it's looking like I won't be around for deadline again.

I'm going to share some thoughts, but I would like to hear from Eddie and UoS first.

[Uncleeurope]

Eddie, I know it's been awhile, but can you explain what you meant here by not hurting another player?

People’s trust in me is unaffected by my claim, I am hardly an IC, and the primary reason for me not being lynched today is to not hurt another player, who might even be scum for all we know.
...

The UB was the reason I wasn’t being policy lynched.

[MiX]

Eddie, I know it's been awhile, but can you explain what you meant here by not hurting another player?

People’s trust in me is unaffected by my claim, I am hardly an IC, and the primary reason for me not being lynched today is to not hurt another player, who might even be scum for all we know.
...

The UB was the reason I wasn’t being policy lynched.

EFHW, why did you ask a question with such an obvious answer?

[faust]

Eddie, I know it's been awhile, but can you explain what you meant here by not hurting another player?

People’s trust in me is unaffected by my claim, I am hardly an IC, and the primary reason for me not being lynched today is to not hurt another player, who might even be scum for all we know.
...

The UB was the reason I wasn’t being policy lynched.

EFHW, why did you ask a question with such an obvious answer?

MiX, why did you ask a question with such an obvious answer?

[MiX]

Eddie, I know it's been awhile, but can you explain what you meant here by not hurting another player?

People’s trust in me is unaffected by my claim, I am hardly an IC, and the primary reason for me not being lynched today is to not hurt another player, who might even be scum for all we know.
...

The UB was the reason I wasn’t being policy lynched.

EFHW, why did you ask a question with such an obvious answer?

MiX, why did you ask a question with such an obvious answer?

Because the answer is really stupid? It's such a non-play that...well, I don't get it. And I want to know why EFHW thought it worked.

Also, hi Awaclus' ghost.

[Uncleeurope]

Is there anyway we can wrap this day up prior to deadline?  Or at least get closer than we currently are?  Going down to the wire hasn't helped us all game and, selfishly, it's looking like I won't be around for deadline again.

I'm going to share some thoughts, but I would like to hear from Eddie and UoS first.

What do you want to know? I will move off of Ash onto either Didds or Snow.

I only skimmed have to drive to class like, now, once I get to the school I will be able to post some.

AMA, I will try to get to it in an hour.

[faust]

Is there anyway we can wrap this day up prior to deadline?  Or at least get closer than we currently are?  Going down to the wire hasn't helped us all game and, selfishly, it's looking like I won't be around for deadline again.

I'm going to share some thoughts, but I would like to hear from Eddie and UoS first.

What do you want to know? I will move off of Ash onto either Didds or Snow.

I'm waiting for you to do that.

[MiX]

Is there anyway we can wrap this day up prior to deadline?  Or at least get closer than we currently are?  Going down to the wire hasn't helped us all game and, selfishly, it's looking like I won't be around for deadline again.

I'm going to share some thoughts, but I would like to hear from Eddie and UoS first.

What do you want to know? I will move off of Ash onto either Didds or Snow.

I only skimmed have to drive to class like, now, once I get to the school I will be able to post some.

AMA, I will try to get to it in an hour.

Not moving to me is literally something only scum would do. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the smoking gun that proves that Eddie's scum. I rest my case. Notice how ash/didds makes no sense and he thought it was ash/me and...yep. He's scum. Finally, I'm right!

[EFHW]

Ok, right. Forgot about the UB.

[MiX]

Ok, right. Forgot about the UB.

Wait what really? I thought it was a really stupid trap.

[Uncleeurope]

Is there anyway we can wrap this day up prior to deadline?  Or at least get closer than we currently are?  Going down to the wire hasn't helped us all game and, selfishly, it's looking like I won't be around for deadline again.

I'm going to share some thoughts, but I would like to hear from Eddie and UoS first.

What do you want to know? I will move off of Ash onto either Didds or Snow.

I only skimmed have to drive to class like, now, once I get to the school I will be able to post some.

AMA, I will try to get to it in an hour.

Not moving to me is literally something only scum would do. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the smoking gun that proves that Eddie's scum. I rest my case. Notice how ash/didds makes no sense and he thought it was ash/me and...yep. He's scum. Finally, I'm right!

Actually, not voting you is something only town would do.

I recognize the wagon that seems to incriminate you and everyone has been pushing you all game, why would I ever not push you as scum? I would be justified in doing so, and mke a lot of town happy in the process.

I have to consider he possibility that wagons can exist without scum on them.

That coupled with me reading a lot of your posts as town makes me hesitate.

Like, do you think I am just bad at scum that I can’t remember what my narrative is enough to realize it makes sense for me to vote you? Yes, it makes sense for me to vote you, but I didn’t want to yet.

That being said, you thinking town would HAVE to push he other person in our scenario doesn’t look good to me from my perspective. You seem to be forging your opinions on what you think town should do, not what is realistic from this perspective.

But whatever.

Faust just wants a solid opinion from me in the form of a vote. I have to decide. If it makes you feel better, MiX, you have been added to the list.

Gimme a bit, I need to think about this.

[Uncleeurope]

We are not lynching ash today. People voting there should reconsider.

Who are we considering?!

You tell me!

Well, I am considering MiX or Eddie. But the certainty with which you took Ash off the table made me curious, and the Royal We made me wonder if you could take Brexit off the table.

Do you honk that’s the pair or Shraeye’s partners? Or just one?

[MiX]

Blablabla scum would want to WIFOM like you're doing. You just threw 2 names in the air because you know I'll flip town if I get lynched and you want all the towncred in the world. Alas, I should've kept quiet, your vote will determine our fate. So, whenever you're ready, do so.

[Uncleeurope]

If I am scum odds are whoever I lynch would be town, so how does not naming your name mean anything? If I were to Vote: Snow or vote for Didds,  and they flipped town it would be just as bad.

Part of me wonders if it’s just been Raerae this entire game.

Ehhhh...

Whatever.

Okay Faust, that’s where it’s at right now, I had the other name holders for awhile, but I think this might be the play. I dunno though and — [Insert loads of disclaimers here regarding everything I might be able to say]

[Uncleeurope]

Holders -> Bolded

[MiX]

I don't understand ever thinking about voting Didds over me. That's all, really, I get the Snow vote. But I think town would be thinking between me and Snow, not Snow and Didds...at least, that's what I would do in Uncle's place, if I had his information.

Well, I think this day doesn't get any more informative than this. Let's see who dies! Oooooh I'm so excited.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space Count as of #2445

MiX (2): raerae, WestCoastDidds
ashersky (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (2): MiX, faust
UmbrageOfSnow (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (3): SpaceAnemone, ashersky, EFHW

Also worth noting that the day ends in around 21.5 hours.. thanks to raerae for raising the point that it's creeping up on us! This being a Thursday, I'm going to be offline for games night from now till late.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, yes, I should absolutely vote.

However, right now (i.e. barely keeping up from work) all this chatter by MiX and Eddie is a bit impenetrable. I'm definitely considering WCD as a solid vote choice.. I haven't yet followed why MiX seems to be suggesting that people should want to vote him instead of her, but I'll try and unpick some more of it later.

[EFHW]

vote: UoS

[MiX]

Also, yes, I should absolutely vote.

However, right now (i.e. barely keeping up from work) all this chatter by MiX and Eddie is a bit impenetrable. I'm definitely considering WCD as a solid vote choice.. I haven't yet followed why MiX seems to be suggesting that people should want to vote him instead of her, but I'll try and unpick some more of it later.

I think the only possible Didds teams are me and Uncle, which would mean Uncle would think the only team is Didds/me, which means he should vote for me. You can vote for Didds, if you think it's one of these teams. But I would reeeeally prefer an Uncle lynch.

[Glooble]

Mod availability update: If the hammer happens before 10:30 ET tonight, I'll be around to post the flip. Otherwise I won't be back until an hour or so before deadline. I'm working my company's booth at PAX east tomorrow, so I need to get a solid amount of sleep. I will try and put up a vote count at some point this evening.


I believe joth is on an international flight right now. Not sure about his wifi status.

[faust]

Since it is getting late, here are some things to consider.

- the likelihood of 2 teams is still relevant. For this reason I would prefer to lynch among the group that has not been cleared for either team. This is Eddie/MiX/raerae.
- Eddie is a liabillity if he is town. Going into LyLo while he is alive is a risk.
- Eddie claimed Gul Dukat, but we do not know if that is true. He could have swapped claims with a scum partner. If he did, then we cannot trust Cop results. We should make sure on this.
- Eddie has spent most of this Day trying to get two claimed PRs that could be dangerous to scum lynched.

[faust]

raerae, I asked for your case on MiX since I wanted to know if he could be scum not on shraeye's team. For a while I thought there was a distinct possibility of an Eddie/MiX/X MU team. The case didn't really convince me I have to say. Many things that you pointed out as scummy are things I fully expect MiX would be capable to avoid.

[ashersky]

I don’t think I’ll be around at deadline today.

vote: uncle

[Uncleeurope]

Since it is getting late, here are some things to consider.

- the likelihood of 2 teams is still relevant. For this reason I would prefer to lynch among the group that has not been cleared for either team. This is Eddie/MiX/raerae.
- Eddie is a liabillity if he is town. Going into LyLo while he is alive is a risk.
- Eddie claimed Gul Dukat, but we do not know if that is true. He could have swapped claims with a scum partner. If he did, then we cannot trust Cop results. We should make sure on this.
- Eddie has spent most of this Day trying to get two claimed PRs that could be dangerous to scum lynched.

Well, you're wrong.

I spent all day targeting people I thought were scummy. And I think whatever role other people have is much more valuable then Snow's for town. But from my perspective I am more convinced than some of you people that there isn't a MU.

But whatever.

If it wasn't me who would you vote?

If you want to limit yourself to Me/MiX/Rarerae what are your thoughts on all 3 being town?

If I flip town will you go for the other 2?

Is this death solely for information?

What do you learn on either flip from me?

I would absolutely claim GF if a partner was GF, so you got me there.

And I am a liability, so there's that.

I dunno, man, this is why I don't analyze games this way, I just look for scummy people. I don't think I have played particularly scummily.

And if I am scum, I am suuuper sloppy. It would take someone who was actually insane to do some of the crap I did here as scum. Like, I don't even understand.

[Uncleeurope]

L-1

[Uncleeurope]

For the record I think I played well. Sorry if I confused a lot of town in the process, wasn't intentional.

For the record: Raerae not commenting on me being voted up seems significant to me, although since I've been townreading her I don't know what that means.

MiX's infatuation with my death seems weird to me as well. I look forward to my flip for that alone.

It's not my fault that the scummy people have good roles.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 4.7

“Captain,” says a fresh-faced young Bajoran recently promoted to Ops, “You’ve got a communique coming in from the Klingon homeworld.”

“In my office,” says Worf.

Chancellor Gowron’s face appears on the screen.

“Wooorf,” he says through his familiar bug-eyed grin. “It’s good to see you. I was sorry to hear about General Martok.”

“He died a warrior’s death,” said Worf. “Facing many challengers.”

“That’s not how I heard it,” says Gowron. “Now some would say one of my finest generals dying, on your station, at the hands of civilians, some would say, that would be cause for war…”

“We are already in a war,” says Worf, “And we are on the same side.”

“Well then,” says Gowron, “I hope you can get your station under control. Otherwise, we might have to take matters into our own hands.”

MiX (2): raerae, WestCoastDidds
ashersky (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (3): MiX, faust, ashersky
UmbrageOfSnow (2): Uncleeurope, EFHW
Not Voting (1): SpaceAnemone

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch most players. Deadline is tomorrow, March 29th, at 12 pm forum time/ US ET (16:00 GMT.) That’s in about 18 hours.

[raerae]

For the record I think I played well. Sorry if I confused a lot of town in the process, wasn't intentional.

For the record: Raerae not commenting on me being voted up seems significant to me, although since I've been townreading her I don't know what that means.

MiX's infatuation with my death seems weird to me as well. I look forward to my flip for that alone.

It's not my fault that the scummy people have good roles.

Dude, I've been vocal about you town reading you. Don't throw that mud my way.

[MiX]

Claiming GF as someone else is incredibly risky. I just...don't understand why no one realized that. If GF gets, say, NKd, or just lynched, you die instantly.

Uncle, if you're town...say everything. Everything. I...can't accept you're town. But I'll try, while you're alive. So, say it. Hide nothing. And...please flip scum. That's all I ask.

If you are town...and Garak is scum...we almost lose. That would be...devastating.

For the record I think I played well. Sorry if I confused a lot of town in the process, wasn't intentional.

For the record: Raerae not commenting on me being voted up seems significant to me, although since I've been townreading her I don't know what that means.

MiX's infatuation with my death seems weird to me as well. I look forward to my flip for that alone.

It's not my fault that the scummy people have good roles.

Dude, I've been vocal about you town reading you. Don't throw that mud my way.

If he's town, then I understand this. I don't, but...from his position he sees town vs town and someone being townread by everyone in the sidelines. I would also suspect you.

[Uncleeurope]

Well I think that I am town and Ash has a high likelihood of being scum, so where does that leave you?

And I will answer any questions people have, of course, but I don't know what you mean by everything.

And I refuse to follow your demand to flip scum.

[Uncleeurope]

For the record I think I played well. Sorry if I confused a lot of town in the process, wasn't intentional.

For the record: Raerae not commenting on me being voted up seems significant to me, although since I've been townreading her I don't know what that means.

MiX's infatuation with my death seems weird to me as well. I look forward to my flip for that alone.

It's not my fault that the scummy people have good roles.

Dude, I've been vocal about you town reading you. Don't throw that mud my way.

I'm ready to vote MiX, now.

[raerae]

Claiming GF as someone else is incredibly risky. I just...don't understand why no one realized that. If GF gets, say, NKd, or just lynched, you die instantly.

Uncle, if you're town...say everything. Everything. I...can't accept you're town. But I'll try, while you're alive. So, say it. Hide nothing. And...please flip scum. That's all I ask.

If you are town...and Garak is scum...we almost lose. That would be...devastating.

For the record I think I played well. Sorry if I confused a lot of town in the process, wasn't intentional.

For the record: Raerae not commenting on me being voted up seems significant to me, although since I've been townreading her I don't know what that means.

MiX's infatuation with my death seems weird to me as well. I look forward to my flip for that alone.

It's not my fault that the scummy people have good roles.

Dude, I've been vocal about you town reading you. Don't throw that mud my way.

If he's town, then I understand this. I don't, but...from his position he sees town vs town and someone being townread by everyone in the sidelines. I would also suspect you.

You suspect everybody. You're even advocating for your own lynch. Don't talk to me about what makes sense.

[raerae]

For the record I think I played well. Sorry if I confused a lot of town in the process, wasn't intentional.

For the record: Raerae not commenting on me being voted up seems significant to me, although since I've been townreading her I don't know what that means.

MiX's infatuation with my death seems weird to me as well. I look forward to my flip for that alone.

It's not my fault that the scummy people have good roles.

Dude, I've been vocal about you town reading you. Don't throw that mud my way.

I'm ready to vote MiX, now.

10/10 would recommend

[Uncleeurope]

Self Preservation Mode: Activated

Vote: MiX

[Uncleeurope]

I am at L-1

MiX is at L-2

[MiX]

Self Preservation Mode: Activated

Vote: MiX

Finally. I was getting worried that you weren't doing that.

raerae: Right, I think I forgot you were scumreading me for a second there.

[MiX]

Well I think that I am town and Ash has a high likelihood of being scum, so where does that leave you?

And I will answer any questions people have, of course, but I don't know what you mean by everything.

And I refuse to follow your demand to flip scum.

That scumread's what I wanted when I told you to say everything. What did you think when shraeye flipped?

[MiX]

Okay, deadline talk: I'll be around 9-ish hours before deadline all the way to it exclusively phone posting, which means I'll be able to move votes around and participate in extensive twilight talk which seems to be what'll happen. I'm debating moving to Snow but...I think I need to trust my reads. Feel free to hammer Uncle or Snow while I'm gone, just not me. See you then! (in 9 hours before deadline)

[Uncleeurope]

Hey, Raerae, would you kill Snow over me?

[Uncleeurope]

Hey, Raerae, would you kill Snow over me?

I'm going through all the stages of grieving, and I have come to bartering.

[raerae]

Hey, Raerae, would you kill Snow over me?

Considering I won't vote for you, yes. Doubly so, considering he could be Maquis. But If rather vote for MiX.

[Uncleeurope]

Noted.

[Uncleeurope]

What about Ash/Didds over me?

[WestCoastDidds]

Eddie, why are you not pushing MiX? Am I missing something?

[Uncleeurope]

Eddie, why are you not pushing MiX? Am I missing something?

I am guaranteed to be town, MiX isn’t.

Better him than me.

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, I see. I read that wrong

Well I am pushing him now.

I didn’t earlier because I think he has a higher chance to be town than other people.

[raerae]

What about Ash/Didds over me?

Didds over Ash over you.

[Uncleeurope]

What about Ash/Didds over me?

Didds over Ash over you.

Ooh, nice, they are sorted, where would you stick snow in the list?

[raerae]

What about Ash/Didds over me?

Didds over Ash over you.

Ooh, nice, they are sorted, where would you stick snow in the list?

I'm not sure, I hadn't really thought rankings but maybe even with Didds? It depends if Didds can be Maquis, I don't have my notes and started posting before checking.

[WestCoastDidds]

Rae, do you take old school notes with a pen? Because I totally do!

Eddie, is MiX town?

[Uncleeurope]

Rae, do you take old school notes with a pen? Because I totally do!

Eddie, is MiX town?

Less town than I am.

I feel like I am being hammer tested.

His posts all game have felt fairly genuine, along with his scum hunting. My only issue is that some of his motivations and insight into other player’s perspectives seems exceptionally flawed.

I haven’t seen him play scum yet (well, maybe) so I don’t know how easily he can replicate his town insanity as scum.

I get the feeling Ash is scum, and the likeliest partners for Ash are probably Snow or MiX...? (And the reason you were still on my list despite me thinking Ash was scum was I took Faust’s rebuke of Ash votes in a way that made me look at the game as if he is town, and if he is town I would put you a lot higher.)

I don’t know. He is scummier than some people for sure, but townier than others.

Do you think he is scum?

[raerae]

Rae, do you take old school notes with a pen? Because I totally do!

Eddie, is MiX town?

You know it! I am a very old lady down to my core. Get off my lawn, you youngsters!!

[WestCoastDidds]

Rae, do you take old school notes with a pen? Because I totally do!

Eddie, is MiX town?

You know it! I am a very old lady down to my core. Get off my lawn, you youngsters!!

Ah, yeah! Gertie and Bertie on the loose!

[raerae]

Rae, do you take old school notes with a pen? Because I totally do!

Eddie, is MiX town?

You know it! I am a very old lady down to my core. Get off my lawn, you youngsters!!

Ah, yeah! Gertie and Bertie on the loose!

We will take on the world when it's convenient for us!

[WestCoastDidds]

[MiX is] Less town than I am.

I feel like I am being hammer tested.

His posts all game have felt fairly genuine, along with his scum hunting. My only issue is that some of his motivations and insight into other player’s perspectives seems exceptionally flawed.

I haven’t seen him play scum yet (well, maybe) so I don’t know how easily he can replicate his town insanity as scum.

I get the feeling Ash is scum, and the likeliest partners for Ash are probably Snow or MiX...? (And the reason you were still on my list despite me thinking Ash was scum was I took Faust’s rebuke of Ash votes in a way that made me look at the game as if he is town, and if he is town I would put you a lot higher.)

I don’t know. He is scummier than some people for sure, but townier than others.

Do you think he is scum?

Not trying to hammer test, you’re just around and no else seems to be. I’m not moving my vote, or rather I don’t anticipate moving it. I’m not sure I can take doing that to you, honestly.

I agree with scummier than some and townier than others. One of the things I’m aware of is that the sheer volume of his posts serve to obscure lots of other interactions and developments. There is just so much. It’s hard for me to see around him. He goads you into the volume game, too, which ends up tarnishing you as a result, I think.

I’ve been voting for him most of the day, and it still seems smart.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm really torn. I feel like there's a strong chance on WCD, but she's not in faust's pool for the day. I worry that UoS could be a Maquis, but he's also off today's lunch menu because he's definitely not MU. While I agree that picking people on all sides of the "possibles" list (Maquis/MU/SK) is overall more likely to give us people with a higher chance of being scum, it might be a bad idea to weight the not-MU list very high, since there is apparently a rapidly-shrinking chance of that faction being in the game anyway.

As for faust's pool, I think raerae is a third-place pick for scum there, because I could see her being SK, but she doesn't seem like a likely scumbuddy for Shraeye.

I certainly had a case on Eddie earlier, but at that point only e and I were willing to vote him, and raerae seems to be defending him surprisingly strongly.

The other one is MiX, and all other things being equal, the temptation to vote him would be pretty strong. I do think he's a little less likely to be scum than Eddie, though.

To tired to do anything more for tonight.. will try to check in tomorrow during the daytime.

Vote: Eddie L-1

[Uncleeurope]

Nope, not L-1

Dead. I am very dead.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space count as of #2488

MiX (3): raerae, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
ashersky (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (4): MiX, faust, ashersky, SpaceAnemone
UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW

PPE 1

[Uncleeurope]

Sigh...


People hate me...

[Uncleeurope]

Well I think I am going to close this tab, and forget it exists.

GG folks.

If anyone wants to join the game Snow and I are modding, that’s where I’ll be.

[raerae]

Yeah, that was an ugly hammer.

[Glooble]

In retrospect, someone could have seen this coming.

“All of our problems started when that spoonhead showed up on the station!” yells a drunk Bajoran militiaman. “We drove him away once already, but I guess it didn’t stick.”

The Bajoran mob is waiting for Gul Dukat outside his quarters.

“This is for Major Kira!” Says one as he stabs him in the chest.

“And this is for Vedek Bariel” says another, beating his head in with a plasma torch.

By the time Starfleet security arrives, the crowd has already dispersed. But the body doesn’t melt away into goo, there’s no weird quantum signature, and no one finds any communicaes from the Maquis in his quarters. Turns out he was just Gul Dukat, the station-aligned hated Godfather.

MiX (3): raerae, WestCoastDidds, Uncleeurope
ashersky (1): UmbrageOfSnow
Uncleeurope (4): MiX, faust, ashersky, SpaceAnemone
UmbrageOfSnow (1): EFHW

With 9 alive, it took 4 to lynch. Night four begins now and goes until 9 pm on Saturday, March 30th.

Thread locked.

[Glooble]

Vote Count 5.0

Dax wakes up to an empty bed- her husband never came home the previous night.

"Computer," she says, "Locate Commander Worf."

"Commander Worf is in the Holosuite" says the computer.

She runs down to the promenade- Quark's bar is locked. That's odd, he's usually open by now. She overrides the lock and runs to the remaining holosuite - Worf is lying in it, dead. It looks like he went to do some bat'leth training after he got off shift and someone turned off the holodeck safeties- and dialed the difficulty settings way up to boot.

EFHW is dead. She was Worf, the station-aligned Maquis Cop.

Obviously security wants to question Quark, but they can't find him anywhere. Finally they find him locked in the bar's vault, surrounded by plenty of latinum- but unfortunately, no oxygen. It looks like someone stuffed him in there and let him suffocate.

faust is dead. He was Quark, the station-aligned Neighbor.

Dax pushes her grief aside and takes command of the station. Hopefully eight lives have been enough to prepare her for this.
 

Not voting (6): UmbrageofSnow, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, MiX, ashersky, raerae

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players. Day 5 begins now.

Day 5 will end  at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Saturday, April 6th

THREAD UNLOCKED

[MiX]

...

Vote: Snow

Vote: ash

Anyone disagreeing with any of these votes should have a clear reason.

No claims unless you're Garak.

I'll be back in 9+ hours.

[raerae]

Vote: space

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, that was an ugly hammer.

I actually forgot that his role meant he would die at L-1. I'm not sure how, given that I remembered that we should lynch him for role-related reasons. He even seemed like the safer person to vote because Ash was already voting for him, so wouldn't be able to swoop in with a sudden hammer.

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, that was an ugly hammer.

I actually forgot that his role meant he would die at L-1. I'm not sure how, given that I remembered that we should lynch him for role-related reasons. He even seemed like the safer person to vote because Ash was already voting for him, so wouldn't be able to swoop in with a sudden hammer.

I mean I remembered that we should lynch him eventually for role-related reasons before he became a liability.

I think I'm going to bar myself from here on out from posting at all in this thread after midnight!

[raerae]

Okay, here's how we sit.

Alive:
UoS
Didds
MiX
Ash
Space
raerae

EFHW's deal rules out a MU team so we're looking at a SK+2MQ which means there are THREE TOWN left and we can't win?

There are TWO MQ in:
UoS
Didds
MiX
Ash
raerae

Ash and I are town (unless I'm wrong, you can fess up now if you like). 

Space's hammer was awful.  Before the "I didn't know" arguments come out, UncleEddie was updating his VC with every vote, L-1 wasn't announced, he claimed hated D1, and joth had a VC just a few posts prior.  It was very clearly intentional.

That means there is one town in:
UoS
Didds
MiX

Soooo, does town have incentive to keep the SK alive and kill MQ?  This is directed at Ash.

unvote

[ashersky]

Welp, my motivation to try has bottomed out considering the chances of winning. But, I think we need to think this through. (Isn’t two scum teams still technically possible?  I think town can’t win in that scenarios though so I am ignoring it here.)

If SK+2M, we have 3 v 2 v 1.  Let’s worst case it:

Mislynch, 2v2v1, both town NK, 2v1 and M wins.
Mislynch, 2v2v1, town NK, 1v2v1. No lynch then see who wins?  Seems hopeless here.
Mislynch, 2v2v1, town/M NK, 1v1v1 and kingmaker? Did joth make a ruling on that?
Mislynch, 2v2v1, M NK, 2v1v1, seems bad. No lynch and cross fingers.

M lynch, 3v1v1, both town NK, 1v1v1 and kingmaker.
M lynch, 3v1v1, town NK, 2v1v1.  Lynch one bad guy and lose to the other or mislynch and lose to someone.
M lynch, 3v1v1, town/M NK, 2v1 and regular LYLO.
M lynch, 3v1v1, M NK, 3v1, no lynch then lylo.

SK lynch, 3v2, town NK, 2v2 means No Lynch, Town NK puts us to LYLO.

No lynch, 3v2v1, both town NK, see 1v2v1 scenario.
No lynch, 3v2v1, town NK, 2v2v1, a few possibilities arise.
No lynch, 3v2v1, town/M NK, 2v1v1, sure loss.
No lynch, 3v2v1, M NK, 3v1v1, some possibilities arise.


So it is at least MYLO.  There are maybe two or three scenarios where we could still win. The single safest outcome seems to be lynching the SK. Second might be NL (+lightning rod were that in play).

It’s that odd almost kingmaker-y scenario where some scum lynched hurt our chances of winning.

[ashersky]

Check my math as it was on a phone.

To raerae, I think our incentive is to remove a kill, so the SK here. That gets us to basically a VT vs. MG game. Then it’s pure scum hunting.

[ashersky]

That also removes the need to care about how NKs go. Wait, no, that’s backwards. SK lynch guarantees M win.

[ashersky]

So yes, we can’t lynch the SK here. SK should claim.

[ashersky]

So, unfunly—we have to lynch M or No Lynch. In all other scenarios scum auto-wins.

So, basically that’s the discussion for today, unless I’m missing something.

[ashersky]

Man, even in the “good” scenarios, it’s mostly king making. In NL+T Kill, one mafia can tell us who the SK is, outing two scum total and basically allowing town to decide which team to lose to (since we lynch one or the other and lose to the one we leave alive). 

[ashersky]

I’m out for awhile. I say no voting until we hash this out fully and decide how we want to end the game.

If anyone sees a more optimistic option, please post it.

[raerae]

I’m out for awhile. I say no voting until we hash this out fully and decide how we want to end the game.

If anyone sees a more optimistic option, please post it.

Naw, we're up a creek.  Space can't be Maquis (excepting weird bus driving stuff) but she can be SK or Town.  My money is on SK.  We would benefit from figuring out who our other Town friend is but we're still going to have a rough go.  I'd like to see what Didds and UoS think of Space's hammer before moving forward. 

[MiX]

Before I read the (rest of) ash's number crunching, I was thinking about lynching Maquis, hopefully forcing a 2v1v1, then we would no lynch and then if SK kills MQ we enter LyLo.

Don't forget we have TWO protective roles, which means we have a decent chance of creating a LyLo or Mylo situation, we haven't lost yet.

That said, Garak should claim: whoever they busdrived with EFHW isn't...Maquis? I think SK would kill faust, unless he's Garak...regardless we need a full Garak claim.

Space's hammer was 1. Stupid 2. Incredibly uncharacteristic 3. Perfectly NAI, which is why I hate it. I believe there was a way to lynch Snow that day, but Space completely threw it off.

For today I would simply lynch Garak...he must be scum since EFHW died. Okay, next post's about ash's probabilities.

[MiX]

I don't like how ash wrote 3 different things for each 2v1v1 sceario. He seems to be degrading the situation each time. I believe that's our most likely chance of winning.

Garak should've bus drived and he should, thus, have a "cop" result on whoever he bus drived. But he's probably scum, so this is mostly worthless.

Ash is wrong in that lynching SK's impossible: it's a possibility, but it would involve Maquis NKing one of our protective roles, so it would be 2/3 chances of the 3v2 LyLo happening, worse if some Maquis are those roles. But it's much easier to lynch Maquis today, it's basically Garak or ash, possibly both.

If anyone thinks ash isn't Maquis nor SK they should say so with good reasoning.

[ashersky]

I’ve written and deleted multiple replies at this point but can’t get to a point where I feel like it’s an acceptable draft per the civility pledge. Basically I don’t think it’s possible for me to respond to MiX at all, and probably just can’t respond.  I’m seriously considering blocking them so I don’t see any posts.

Possible commuter shot, one deathproof, SK BP.  Those are the possible powers left that can matter. Considering that’s two roles that town can have and half of living players are scum, I have to imagine at least one is not helping us.

[MiX]

I’ve written and deleted multiple replies at this point but can’t get to a point where I feel like it’s an acceptable draft per the civility pledge. Basically I don’t think it’s possible for me to respond to MiX at all, and probably just can’t respond.  I’m seriously considering blocking them so I don’t see any posts.

Possible commuter shot, one deathproof, SK BP.  Those are the possible powers left that can matter. Considering that’s two roles that town can have and half of living players are scum, I have to imagine at least one is not helping us.

...I'm sorry. I guess I'm hated by everyone, and it seems to be for good reasons. This should probably be discussed, most likely after the game's over. I would really like to know...everything I'm doing wrong that makes people not be able to interact with me. Yes, I'm aggressive, but is it really being too much? I can't objectively answer this...

You're right about the PR part: I overestimated the odds of MQ failing to NK after SK lynch, it should be around 1/3. Now tell me why you're town, if you can. Also, can you answer this question: are you Garak?

[WestCoastDidds]

Ashersky, I’m gonna stand next to you for awhile. I appreciate you helping us think through what we need to do, so I’m going to try to add to your thoughts.

I’m Dax, and I’m station-aligned. So, one-shot deathproof. I am not sure exactly how that might help us (I think it does, maybe?), but thinking through scenarios is definitely not my strong suit so I’m giving this to you to add to your mix.

[MiX]

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

Neither Dax nor Yates should claim, doing so makes their role useless, because their bulletproofs won't be triggered if scum avoids them. As an extention to this, no non-Garak role should claim to hide the identity of our bulletproof folk.

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

That said, I believe Didds' "claim" makes her townier if she is, in fact, Dax. Or at least, less likely to be MQ. No one should counterclaim her.

[ashersky]

I think if WCD is lying, a counterclaim is fine. That hilariously reduces our chances of lynching scum from 3 in 5 (for town players) to 1 in 2.  If it were to be scum on scum, even funnier.

A counterclaim is funny here, though. Lynch incorrectly and it’s a no lynch that just negates the role and puts us in the no lynch scenarios. Lynch correctly and we get rid of scum and our deathproof goes to LYLO guaranteed, even if they are scum.

I think a counterclaim is the right move. Of course, I believe WCD here anyway, so moot point.

[ashersky]

I think the commuter is the only real PR that matters here, and only if they have saved their shot until now.

But, imagine the SK is the Commuter. They wait until they survive via BP, then commute the next night. Basically unstoppable.

Basically same goes for Deathproof. SK is a monster in this setup with certain roles.

[MiX]

Didds could be lying as town. That's all, really. No lynch while losing one bulletproof is the worst, but it's also necessary if Dax is SK. Still don't think a CC should happen.

Agreed that SK almost always wins here if he's commuter or deathproof...sigh...

Ash: are you, or are you not, Garak? Please answer this, even with an "I'm not answering" post. I'm also asking this to raerae.

[raerae]

So MiX, you think we should kill the SK today?

[MiX]

So MiX, you think we should kill the SK today?

No, we should kill Maquis, which is precisely why I'm voting for ash. I also believe we should vote for Garak, because if they were town they would've claimed by now, and I think ash's Garak.

As for reasons for Garak to claim, if they bus drived then they would know who scum targetted that was bus drived into EFHW (if they didn't bus drive EFHW then they're scum) and, thus, we would have a "cop" result on them, because I believe SK killed faust (if SK isn't Garak), thus said person couldn't be Maquis. If SK's Garak, then we should lynch them anyway, because there's no way to distinguish them from Maquis and we can still win after a SK lynch.

I hope I answered everything, I have a feeling I'm being confusing...

[raerae]

So MiX, you think we should kill the SK today?

No, we should kill Maquis, which is precisely why I'm voting for ash. I also believe we should vote for Garak, because if they were town they would've claimed by now, and I think ash's Garak.

As for reasons for Garak to claim, if they bus drived then they would know who scum targetted that was bus drived into EFHW (if they didn't bus drive EFHW then they're scum) and, thus, we would have a "cop" result on them, because I believe SK killed faust (if SK isn't Garak), thus said person couldn't be Maquis. If SK's Garak, then we should lynch them anyway, because there's no way to distinguish them from Maquis and we can still win after a SK lynch.

I hope I answered everything, I have a feeling I'm being confusing...

I think you should unvote and flesh that out a little more if for no reason other than my benefit.  How is Ash Maquis?

[raerae]

Hold the phone.  You just asked if I was Garak.  But now you KNOW Ash is?  I don't think either Ash or I should claim.

[raerae]

Didds could be lying as town. That's all, really. No lynch while losing one bulletproof is the worst, but it's also necessary if Dax is SK. Still don't think a CC should happen.

Agreed that SK almost always wins here if he's commuter or deathproof...sigh...

Ash: are you, or are you not, Garak? Please answer this, even with an "I'm not answering" post. I'm also asking this to raerae.

Lying as town?  Can you explain that too, please?

[raerae]

@MiX, Didds, Snow: Thoughts on a No Lynch?

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm here, and I'm sure I have lots of relevant thoughts, but I'm struggling so badly with awakeness today. I've got a lot of house stuff I need to get done while there's daylight on my side.

ETA for thinking maybe 5.30pm forum time? I've got a friend arriving for dinner and Disco in about half an hour, and they usually stay till about 10 local time.

[raerae]

I'm here, and I'm sure I have lots of relevant thoughts, but I'm struggling so badly with awakeness today. I've got a lot of house stuff I need to get done while there's daylight on my side.

ETA for thinking maybe 5.30pm forum time? I've got a friend arriving for dinner and Disco in about half an hour, and they usually stay till about 10 local time.

We'll be here when you get back, have fun and have a coffee, you've gotta need it!

[MiX]

Ash's scum mostly due to the case I made D4 that, at least for me, narrowed down the teams to Didds/Uncle, Snow/Uncle and Ash/Snow. Since Uncle's town, the only team left is Ash/Snow. I also believe Didds isn't Maquis, and I'm still mildly townreading you (less now), which leads me to conclude Ash's Maquis. I also believe Garak is scum and that Ash is Garak, which is why I'm voting for him and not Snow. It's a bit weak, but if you combine both of our perspectives I think this is the only logical conclusion. Of course, I could be wrong about you, and I could be Maquis in your eyes, but...yeah. The case on NotMaquis!Didds is more complicated, I could tell you it, if you want. Do you want it?

I know what you're going to say: why am I basing a case on something that caused Eddie to get mislynched? Well, back at the time I wasn't townreading Didds. That was my mistake. But really, the only possible Didds team was with Uncle and now that's not possible, so I suppose it's forgivable...

Hold the phone.  You just asked if I was Garak.  But now you KNOW Ash is?  I don't think either Ash or I should claim.

I don't know who Garak is, I'm assuming ash's Garak, mostly because I had a townread on you and you're the only one that can be Garak if ash isn't.

Didds could be lying as town. That's all, really. No lynch while losing one bulletproof is the worst, but it's also necessary if Dax is SK. Still don't think a CC should happen.

Agreed that SK almost always wins here if he's commuter or deathproof...sigh...

Ash: are you, or are you not, Garak? Please answer this, even with an "I'm not answering" post. I'm also asking this to raerae.

Lying as town?  Can you explain that too, please?

Hiding the identity of Dax is so important town can lie, mostly because no one should claim (other than Garak). Of course, no one should say anything, but I believe Didds would be the first to do a weird play for funzies, and this is a weird play for funzies.

@MiX, Didds, Snow: Thoughts on a No Lynch?

An absolute waste of time, NKs will leave us in a worse position. I have more to say about this but there's no reason to help scum.

I'm here, and I'm sure I have lots of relevant thoughts, but I'm struggling so badly with awakeness today. I've got a lot of house stuff I need to get done while there's daylight on my side.

ETA for thinking maybe 5.30pm forum time? I've got a friend arriving for dinner and Disco in about half an hour, and they usually stay till about 10 local time.

Take your time to think, drunk mafia eats a little piece of your brain and it needs time to recover.

[raerae]

Why'd you ask me to claim if I was Garak?  Then give me zero time to do so before accusing Ash of it?

[MiX]

Why'd you ask me to claim if I was Garak?  Then give me zero time to do so before accusing Ash of it?

I've been accusing Ash of being Garak for quite some time now. To make this post more than a simple answer, why do you think Garak shouldn't claim?

[raerae]

Why'd you ask me to claim if I was Garak?  Then give me zero time to do so before accusing Ash of it?

I've been accusing Ash of being Garak for quite some time now. To make this post more than a simple answer, why do you think Garak shouldn't claim?

Don't avoid the question.  Why'd you want me to claim?

[raerae]

Why'd you ask me to claim if I was Garak?  Then give me zero time to do so before accusing Ash of it?

I've been accusing Ash of being Garak for quite some time now. To make this post more than a simple answer, why do you think Garak shouldn't claim?

Don't avoid the question.  Why'd you want me to claim?

Here's how I see it, you, Space, me, and Ash haven't claimed yet.  If you get Ash and I to claim, even if it's just "Not Garak," you've narrowed the pool for the remaining roles.  That's scummy as hell, why are you trying to expose more town roles?

[raerae]

Why'd you ask me to claim if I was Garak?  Then give me zero time to do so before accusing Ash of it?

I've been accusing Ash of being Garak for quite some time now. To make this post more than a simple answer, why do you think Garak shouldn't claim?

Don't avoid the question.  Why'd you want me to claim?

Here's how I see it, you, Space, me, and Ash haven't claimed yet.  If you get Ash and I to claim, even if it's just "Not Garak," you've narrowed the pool for the remaining roles.  That's scummy as hell, why are you trying to expose more town roles?

On top of that, Garak didn't claim yesterday so it's HIGHLY unlikely they're going to claim today.  And the cherry is that it doesn't matter anymore.  We need to identify Maquis and a role isn't a guaranteed way to do that. 

[MiX]

Why'd you ask me to claim if I was Garak?  Then give me zero time to do so before accusing Ash of it?

I've been accusing Ash of being Garak for quite some time now. To make this post more than a simple answer, why do you think Garak shouldn't claim?

Don't avoid the question.  Why'd you want me to claim?

Here's how I see it, you, Space, me, and Ash haven't claimed yet.  If you get Ash and I to claim, even if it's just "Not Garak," you've narrowed the pool for the remaining roles.  That's scummy as hell, why are you trying to expose more town roles?

On top of that, Garak didn't claim yesterday so it's HIGHLY unlikely they're going to claim today.  And the cherry is that it doesn't matter anymore.  We need to identify Maquis and a role isn't a guaranteed way to do that. 

Because Garak has information. Obviously, that information's not useful enough for town to claim, which makes me believe Garak's scum that didn't bus drive and doesn't want to give an innocent result. Unless you believe town!Garak would ever, EVER not bus drive EFHW there? I don't...

So, essencially, I want a Garak claim so we can lynch them. I was toying around with the idea that town!Garak has information for town but at this point I doubt there's a town!Garak. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

Yesterday there was no chance that Garak was even remotely scummy nor did he have a reason to use his ability. Today we have both (EFHW died and Garak should've protected her). I believe that completely changes the circumstances around his claim.

[raerae]

Why'd you ask me to claim if I was Garak?  Then give me zero time to do so before accusing Ash of it?

I've been accusing Ash of being Garak for quite some time now. To make this post more than a simple answer, why do you think Garak shouldn't claim?

Don't avoid the question.  Why'd you want me to claim?

Here's how I see it, you, Space, me, and Ash haven't claimed yet.  If you get Ash and I to claim, even if it's just "Not Garak," you've narrowed the pool for the remaining roles.  That's scummy as hell, why are you trying to expose more town roles?

On top of that, Garak didn't claim yesterday so it's HIGHLY unlikely they're going to claim today.  And the cherry is that it doesn't matter anymore.  We need to identify Maquis and a role isn't a guaranteed way to do that. 

Because Garak has information. Obviously, that information's not useful enough for town to claim, which makes me believe Garak's scum that didn't bus drive and doesn't want to give an innocent result. Unless you believe town!Garak would ever, EVER not bus drive EFHW there? I don't...

So, essencially, I want a Garak claim so we can lynch them. I was toying around with the idea that town!Garak has information for town but at this point I doubt there's a town!Garak. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

Yesterday there was no chance that Garak was even remotely scummy nor did he have a reason to use his ability. Today we have both (EFHW died and Garak should've protected her). I believe that completely changes the circumstances around his claim.

That's ridiculous, you think scum is going to claim so you can lynch them?  I mean, if that were the case Town would have won already.  Let's talk no lynch again, why do you think it put town behind? 

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey, I'm alive, I'm honestly not up to posting much or reading anything today. I didn't submit a night action last night. Not that it matters.

I'll review the end of the day (did it end early or did I lose track of time) tonight or tomorrow or something and comment on that. Just, whatever, I'm here, I'm not dead.

[MiX]

Because Garak has information. Obviously, that information's not useful enough for town to claim, which makes me believe Garak's scum that didn't bus drive and doesn't want to give an innocent result. Unless you believe town!Garak would ever, EVER not bus drive EFHW there? I don't...

So, essencially, I want a Garak claim so we can lynch them. I was toying around with the idea that town!Garak has information for town but at this point I doubt there's a town!Garak. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

Yesterday there was no chance that Garak was even remotely scummy nor did he have a reason to use his ability. Today we have both (EFHW died and Garak should've protected her). I believe that completely changes the circumstances around his claim.

That's ridiculous, you think scum is going to claim so you can lynch them?  I mean, if that were the case Town would have won already.  Let's talk no lynch again, why do you think it put town behind? 

We can narrow down who Garak is if everyone else claims "Not Garak"! How is this not obvious?? No lynch is bad because...man, I have some good plays planned out, but I don't want to tell scum about it. One of the scumteams can insure no scum get NKd. Thus we'll enter 2v2v1 (maybe 2v1v1), which is worse than what we have now. Not to mention it kills Didds' deathproof. There's a scenario where this is false, in which case we'll get some information, or scum can gamble since the odds are for them. This is worse than lynching Maquis today.

Tell me, why do you think no lynch's better than Maquis lynch?

Hey, I'm alive, I'm honestly not up to posting much or reading anything today. I didn't submit a night action last night. Not that it matters.

I'll review the end of the day (did it end early or did I lose track of time) tonight or tomorrow or something and comment on that. Just, whatever, I'm here, I'm not dead.

Space derphammered because they forgot about Uncle's PR, which was known from his very first post. Still a bit annoyed at it, and at the fact that I can't scumread them for it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

6 alive: 3 town, 2 maquis, 1 SK with very high probability, enough that I'm willing to just assume that.

No lynch-> SK shoots maquis, maquis shoots SK (best case) -> 3 town, 1 maquis, 1 SK, maquis know the SK. We can try to read interactions into successfully lynching the SK, which is maquis best chance to win but the surviving maquis can't be too obvious about it.

No lynch-> SK shoots maquis, masquis shoots town (best likely case) -> 2 town, 1 maquis, 1 SK -> have to lynch
   50% Lynch town -> SK victory
   25% Lynch SK -> Maquis shoots town -> 1 town, 1 maquis - >Maquis victory

[UmbrageOfSnow]

stbrsacbecruntauo damn it

[UmbrageOfSnow]

25% lynch maquis -> SK shoots town -> 1 town, 1 SK -> SK victory

I'm strongly opposed to no lynch

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think that all makes sense, usually  try to think through these things before clicking post, but god damn tab button.

Anyway, that doesn't consider the chances of no lynching and SK shooting town, which is even worse. We lynch today.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

MiX: why can't you scumread Space for it?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't think it's worth considering Dax's deathproof in this, because Dax is just as likely to be maquis as anyone else and then we're in the same boat with a no lynch again, etc.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Or SK, but then it doesn't really matter to NK math anyway.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

MiX wanting to autolynch Garak is scummy as hell.

[MiX]

MiX: why can't you scumread Space for it?

I think it's NAI, there's no way Space, a person that I'm sure prides themselves in deduction through VCAs, would ever fake forgetting about Uncle's role. Thus, it was legitimate, something that both town!Space and scum!Space are capable of doing.

Although I like your analysis, you missed the protective PRs which are essencially our way out of this situation into a decent LyLo.

I don't think it's worth considering Dax's deathproof in this, because Dax is just as likely to be maquis as anyone else and then we're in the same boat with a no lynch again, etc.

Not...sure what you mean by this. Dax forces no NK in a night that scum wanted to NK, I think that's pretty strong. Maybe I'm underplaying the lynchproof angle? I'm almost ignoring it.

MiX wanting to autolynch Garak is scummy as hell.

If you think Garak can be town after EFHW flipped, please explain, because I can't see that. Or at least said Garak would've claimed already.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Garak could have used his power earlier, trying to snipe redirect an NK like I talked about earlier in the game. That's not something only scum would have done. It's certainly not a scumclaim as you're implying.

If Dax is scum then she doesn't force a no kill, although scum could always choose not to kill.

I do agree PR luck could help us here, but don't think we should be lynching assuming how it plays out.

Lynching Dax is catastrophic.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

My biggest problem with MiX here is that I thought he got this stuff earlier but is now pushing for the unthinking Garak lynch.

His thoughts on Garak have been all over the place all game, but largely focussed around lynching without having to build a case on whomever the player was. That's another reason I was screwing around with acting Garak like Yesterday.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

MiX: let's assume Ash claims (WLOG) Yates. What is your read on Ash in that case?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

*Without loss of generality

[MiX]

Garak could have used his power earlier, trying to snipe redirect an NK like I talked about earlier in the game. That's not something only scum would have done. It's certainly not a scumclaim as you're implying.

If Dax is scum then she doesn't force a no kill, although scum could always choose not to kill.

I do agree PR luck could help us here, but don't think we should be lynching assuming how it plays out.

Lynching Dax is catastrophic.

What's more likely: Garak misplayed his role (this is highly subjective, but...using bus drive before any cop claims seems bad. I have to admit I didn't think a lot about it, however) or he's scum that didn't protect EFHW so he could kill her? Actually both are pretty unlikely as far as plays go, but seeing as no one's scumreading Garak due to EFHW flipping, maybe the latter's a good play afterall.

Maquis!Dax forces no NK from SK, but I suppose that's bad for us. Damn, Dax might be weaker than I thought. At least we still have commuter!

My biggest problem with MiX here is that I thought he got this stuff earlier but is now pushing for the unthinking Garak lynch.

His thoughts on Garak have been all over the place all game, but largely focussed around lynching without having to build a case on whomever the player was. That's another reason I was screwing around with acting Garak like Yesterday.

That player is ash, whom I've built a case already. You're right in that I wish I could simply lynch based on role, and here it seems a good idea, better than having to rely on gut reads.

I don't think why the Garak lynch is unthinkable, did everyone assume Garak would've used his power N3-? I can see a scenario where that's possible, but...well, it's unlikely and probably bad play. I might've done it, however.

MiX: let's assume Ash claims (WLOG) Yates. What is your read on Ash in that case?

I would probably think about voting him or you, depending on your interactions with raerae. I would also engage with raerae to see what she did as Garak (reminder that if you used bus drive an earlier day and it did nothing, you should claim that you haven't used it) to see if I believe her reasons. So overall it would be less of an instant lynch. I also trust raerae more, so I wouldn't snapvote her, but I would definitely be skeptical if she claimed to not have bus drived EFHW.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

But what would your read on Ash be, in that case?

And stop identifying not wanting to turbolynch Garak based on how you think they used their role with a Garak lynch being unthinkable. Don't strawman me, bro.

[MiX]

But what would your read on Ash be, in that case?

And stop identifying not wanting to turbolynch Garak based on how you think they used their role with a Garak lynch being unthinkable. Don't strawman me, bro.

Hmm, I read unthinkable lynch, not unthinking. Oops.

I would still think the scumteam's ash/Snow, but he would get relatively townier, from basicallyconf!scum to scummy. I'll need to do a detailed reread to see exactly how you three (ash/snow/raerae) interact...in fact I should be doing one now, but that'll have to be for tomorrow.

[ashersky]

A couple of quick thoughts:

—put me in the “SA doesn’t ever forget” camp.  The quicklynch was a deliberate move, and I think it comes from scum more than town. If SA is town and actually forgot, they know it’s so far out of character that it may cost them the rest of this game and result in some post-game commiseration. Town does it too, but usually has a username that begins with A.

—MiX is mafia, not SK, if scum. He slipped and said “teams” within his last dozen or so posts, which is a scumslip for most at this point. The fact that he hasn’t been lynched yet is also highly suspect.

—NK analysis (mostly why faust) is mildly interesting, and I’d like to read some.

—my goal today is to build up my “won’t lynch” list and POE the best option. Currently, raerae and WCD are on it.

—UoS/SA, can either of you confirm for me that it is MYLO?  Or is there a case where we mislynch and still win?  I mean independent of scum actions at night. (As in, is there a strange case where a mislynch is better than a scum lynch?)

[SpaceAnemone]

We are definitely in a SK+Maquis scenario. This is known for certain to me, MiX and and raerae, because the three of us are the only ones left unchecked by UoS. I don't fully understand why he didn't target anyone last night for a chance to be able to confirm to himself, WCD and Ash that this is the case.

Given this fact, there are 60 possible game states in terms of which roles are in which factions (that's 20 ways to pick three town roles from a pool of six possible roles, and then for each combination, one of the remaining three non-towns is the SK).

I suspect some of these combinations are more winnable for town than others. For instance, having the deathproof, double-voter and commuter on our side really helps, especially if the loved scum could soak up the NK. I suspect we maximise our chances of winning if we give up on the ones that are the least winnable, and concentrate our efforts on winning in the scenarios where there's still a stronger chance.

[MiX]

Good post by ash, as are almost all of them. Shame that I think you're almost conf!scum. Reminder that you didn't answer my question of "are you Garak?" even with a "I'm not answering". Cmon, at least acknowledge it. I'll swear this is the last time I'm bringing this topic up, so I don't get dissapointed again.

—put me in the “SA doesn’t ever forget” camp.  The quicklynch was a deliberate move, and I think it comes from scum more than town. If SA is town and actually forgot, they know it’s so far out of character that it may cost them the rest of this game and result in some post-game commiseration. Town does it too, but usually has a username that begins with A.

I'm not sure in what universe Space would ever do that deliberately. It's so incredibly anti-town that...no, I can't see it. It serves no purpose, all it did was ruin town's chances of backpeddling into lynching Snow, something I was seriously considering there. It doesn't even give them town points! It's worthless! Thus the only logical conclusion is that Space actually forgot, something that...well, can happen. It was pretty late for them (advantages of being in the same timezone) so it's possible they just...forgot. But I understand why everyone thinks it's really uncharacteristic, because it is.

—MiX is mafia, not SK, if scum. He slipped and said “teams” within his last dozen or so posts, which is a scumslip for most at this point. The fact that he hasn’t been lynched yet is also highly suspect.

Last time you said this, said person flipped town. I'm sorry if I don't believe you here, but really. To be honest, this is probably buried here, but with Uncle's flip I realized something: all of Maquis were on my wagon D2 (even if Snow moved to faust before shraeye and Didds hopped in). That's...interesting. I've been using it as a case for Didds!raerae not being likely (because Didds would've had to hop onto a wagon with 2 Maquis already on it at the same time shraeye hopped into it, sounds off for Didds); same for Didds!ash but I was already thinking it was unlikely, so now it's basically impossible. Anyway, I guess all Maquis wanted me dead, which is why my wagon never grew enough? Because they went on it early? Not sure how to approach this angle.

—NK analysis (mostly why faust) is mildly interesting, and I’d like to read some.

faust died because he wasn't SK; EFHW died because she was Maquis cop and Garak was scum (probably Maquis). I believe SK killed faust and Maquis killed EFHW, that just makes the most sense. Not much else to say here.

—my goal today is to build up my “won’t lynch” list and POE the best option. Currently, raerae and WCD are on it.

Same here, but I'm not sure I can put raerae there anymore. It's almost in it, but if I limit myself too much I might tunnel into ash!snow too fast. Do you think it's Snow!MiX?

I suspect some of these combinations are more winnable for town than others. For instance, having the deathproof, double-voter and commuter on our side really helps, especially if the loved scum could soak up the NK. I suspect we maximise our chances of winning if we give up on the ones that are the least winnable, and concentrate our efforts on winning in the scenarios where there's still a stronger chance.

Space doing work here. I suppose I'll have to investigate these.

[SpaceAnemone]

—put me in the “SA doesn’t ever forget” camp.  The quicklynch was a deliberate move, and I think it comes from scum more than town. If SA is town and actually forgot, they know it’s so far out of character that it may cost them the rest of this game and result in some post-game commiseration. Town does it too, but usually has a username that begins with A.

You're honestly wrong here, and I'll be able to do a rather subdued "I told you so" after the game once I've flipped and you've seen I'm town. Thursday was just too full a day for me (work was busy, I went to the gym at lunch for the first time in three weeks after my illness (just for a gentle pilates class, but still it was a good step!), and then I had games night at a friend's place and a chilly cycle ride home), and I really didn't have as much brain power available as I thought I did by the end of the day. It's actually funny that you say "SA doesn't ever forget", because I'm really forgetful IRL, but usually having notes in a text doc about what's going on saves me, though not so much in this case!

—UoS/SA, can either of you confirm for me that it is MYLO?

I think it's too hard to be sure because of things like commuters and double-voters and scum killing each other that might help us out.

Ah, actually, one thing to note: is it just me misreading the setup, or can the SK actually not be killed at night at all because of the "bulletproof" modifier? If so, I perhaps trying to lynch them today might be the only way to succeed, while we have enough Maquis left who're selfishly interested in making that work for their own wincon too, and while it also helps town reduce the number of deaths happening per night.

[SpaceAnemone]

@Joth, could the thread header be changed to say "Day 5" please? Thanks!

[SpaceAnemone]

Here's a scenario where town still has a small chance of winning following a D5 mislynch. Does it seem plausible?

Town lynch D5 goes into N5 with 2 Maq, 1 SK and 2 town.
Best case for N5 is SK kills Maq and Maq targets SK, which won't kill the SK but will identify them to the team they threaten. We can even help this scenario by leaving me alive, because that reduces the pool that the SK is shooting at, since I'm known non-Maquis :-)

D6 starts with 1 Maq, 1 possibly-identified SK and 2 town. Maq and town all want to get the SK lynched, to the point where the Maqis player could even reveal themself because it's almost all down to the PR distribution at that point anyway.

N6 night starts with Maq and two town. If Maq succeeds in killing and doesn't leave a double-voter alive, then the Maqis faction wins, otherwise town wins.

Can the SK improve their chances by not killing a Maquis N5? That would start D6 with 2 Maquis, 1 SK and possibly 1 town, which looks like a sure town loss, but doesn't look any better for the SK. I guess it depends on what exactly motivates the SK most in their wincon.

[ashersky]

Argh, I hate phone posting. Lost a response to SA just now.

Trying again...thanks for the note on forgetting. My belief of said note is based only on the fact that we are in the late stages of a mafia game, so hopefully no hard feelings either way. Plus, my doubt is based on my high opinion of your usual play!

[raerae]

I'm going to vote No Lynch unless somebody talks me out of it.  It guarantees 4 alive tomorrow, lynching today guarantees 3 alive tomorrow.  Somebody tell me why I'm wrong.  Not MiX, sorry, you've tried twice, I'm just not picking up what you're putting down.

[ashersky]

@Joth, could the thread header be changed to say "Day 5" please? Thanks!

I could, but like faust don’t want to overstep.

[ashersky]

I had the same though that Space had, that of lynching SK actually being the right play. But as I then realized, chances of losing are also high due to 3v2 going into night. If the commuter successfully commutes to dodge the kill, we are where we want to be tomorrow. Deathproof was another stopper there, but WCD claiming sort of takes that out of play.

If WCD is deathproof, BP SK, basically game over, congrats.

Re:Rae and NL...that was my second thought, and I haven’t been convinced that it’s wrong. There are some bad outcomes, of course — like only town deaths — but the idea that we have some better forced decisions tomorrow (i.e., less living scum, possibly scum wanting to out other scum) is tempting.

[MiX]

The idea that scum get NKd during the night if we no lynch is ridiculous: SK can simply not kill anyone (or hit Didds) while Maquis kills town. How does this help anyone? We can only force SK to hit MQ if we mislynch. I don't get how no one saw this. This puts us in 2v2v1, which is unwinnable by any standards, or at the very least it's strictly worse than 3v2v1. On the other hand, it's so easy to lynch MQ today that we can force a 2v1v1 next day, which increase our odds much more (although we could be forced into 1v1v1...). Actually, I think 1v1v1 just makes SK win, right? Since they're full bulletproof? So MQ would never allow it.

Overall, MQ lynch is our best shot...or SK lynch. But the odds are better for MQ, close to 50% winrate assuming we win when we reach LyLo, opposed to...the MQ odds are actually hard to calculate, depends on PRs. But I would assume it's lower? Around 33%? Both work, but NL is terrible.

[SpaceAnemone]

The idea that scum get NKd during the night if we no lynch is ridiculous: SK can simply not kill anyone (or hit Didds) while Maquis kills town. How does this help anyone?

Ash was asking whether we're at lylo, so in response I was offering the scenario I'd thought of that let town win following a mislynch, which could be used as a proof that we're not strictly at lylo. Yes, it's unlikely to pan out that way.

Also, I'd like to comment on your language here. You've said "The idea... is ridiculous", and you're probably right. However, you could easily be read as someone who's being very direct and quite rude about it, and I don't see any indication that you're even aware of that. If you want to be less hostile about it, you could say "I think the idea is ridiculous", or you could use a phrase instead of "ridiculous" that gets at the heart of what you're trying to say, e.g. "implausible".

I mention this now because all through the game, I had been conscious of you calling ideas/concepts "stupid", but in every case I noticed, it looked like it could be argued that you weren't being outright rude about a person, so I kept quiet. Then you outright called me stupid in one of your first posts in D5, and that is definitely over the line. Sure, as a player I messed up, and I'm sorry to all the townies I let down because of it, but it's still not a reason to start pulling out derogatory names for players. Does that make sense to you?

Back to the game topic, and I certainly agree that lynching scum is better than not lynching scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

I had the same though that Space had, that of lynching SK actually being the right play. But as I then realized, chances of losing are also high due to 3v2 going into night. If the commuter successfully commutes to dodge the kill, we are where we want to be tomorrow. Deathproof was another stopper there, but WCD claiming sort of takes that out of play.

If WCD is deathproof, BP SK, basically game over, congrats.

Re:Rae and NL...that was my second thought, and I haven’t been convinced that it’s wrong. There are some bad outcomes, of course — like only town deaths — but the idea that we have some better forced decisions tomorrow (i.e., less living scum, possibly scum wanting to out other scum) is tempting.

I think I'm convinced that NL is more or less unwinnable for town, but quite good for Maquis.

For town, we have three of us left out of six. Three scum to kill before we're wiped out. If we don't lynch, how do we kill off the scums we need to kill in order to win? I see only two ways to kill off non-townies in the night, and both work only on Maquis and not on the SK:

Option 1: SK kills one of the Maquis. That may still be good for the SK's win-con.

Option 2: if we have a town busdriver, they divert a scum NK onto a Maquis. That has a very low likelihood of happening, since if we still had a useful bus driver, they should have helped save EFHW or our IC.

Neither of those is super-likely, whereas at least with a lynch we have a ~50% chance of hitting scum.

[ashersky]

I mean, I think we can all agree that scum lynch>no lynch>mislynch.

The point of my theorizing is we can fully control only one of those things.

As for whatever it is MiX is trying to say about NK targets...what?  Scum doesn’t know target alignments for NKs any more than we know target alignments for lynches. So your argument is difficult for me to understand.

And why would scum choose to not kill at night?  They can’t be caught, there’s no downside to failing due to BP, and it only helps their own wincon to reduce the not-them pool.

Posting what appears to be clearly incorrect information as cold, hard facts (as I believe he’s been doing all game) is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading to the point of detrimental action being taken. If the latter is on purpose, it is coming from scum.

Here is where raerae should mention he’s been all but impossible to lynch this game, which continues to be a scum tell.

[MiX]

The hammer was stupid. I guess my wording's too agressive if you assume I'm talking directly at people, which is not my intention. I should probably...no, I should definitely tone down my vocabulary. As for the "stupid" comment itself, that post was meant to convey my general  discontent about the hammer, coupled with the frustration of not being useful to scumhunt.

I'm glad you're on my side of no lynch even if you didn't use my arguments 


Ash, you should specify WHICH scum you're talking about: they have completely different powers and situations. By the way, I'm operating in a "1v1v1 is a SK win" mindset, which might not be something you're considering.

[jotheonah]

Hey everybody. Sorry for being absentee mod lately. A lot of RL stuff got in the way. Updating the thread now and will do a VC shortly.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 5.1

"Admiral Ross, we need you to send us some reinforcements. I'm down to one enlistedman as my entire senior staff," Dax says, talking to the Admiral over subspace. "Miles is used to doing 10 jobs, but this is beyond even his abilities. I'm considering drafting some civilians to cover other duties."

"You'll have to do that, Lieutenant," the Admiral says. "I'm afraid to say Starfleet doesn't have personnel to spare at the moment. Your orders are to not let anyone leave until the threat is neutralized."

The Admiral looks at Dax with a tired look.

"Just get it done Lieutenant. We've lost too many good people. Ross out."



ashersky (1): MiX
Not voting (5): UmbrageofSnow, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, ashersky, raerae

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players.

Day 5 will end  at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Saturday, April 6th

[ashersky]

1v1v1 is a town loss, so I don’t particularly care who wins. If you are pointing out that the mod has decided that’s an automatic SK win given the kingmaker problem, I was unaware of that, and again, I don’t really care.

The only scum death tonight will be a mafia death, as the SK is BP. But why does one need to specify which scum kill we are talking about?  Scum can and will kill every night unless it’s is 2v1v1 and there is some possibility that two scum kill each other. Even then, unless the BP has been used up and it isn’t WCD, SK is safe anyway. So again, I still fail to understand your point.

[MiX]

1v1v1 is a town loss, so I don’t particularly care who wins. If you are pointing out that the mod has decided that’s an automatic SK win given the kingmaker problem, I was unaware of that, and again, I don’t really care.

The only scum death tonight will be a mafia death, as the SK is BP. But why does one need to specify which scum kill we are talking about?  Scum can and will kill every night unless it’s is 2v1v1 and there is some possibility that two scum kill each other. Even then, unless the BP has been used up and it isn’t WCD, SK is safe anyway. So again, I still fail to understand your point.

MQ doesn't want a 1v1v1 so they'll play differently. Same for SK not wanting 1v2v1; and neither want 2v1 (well, SK doesn't, whereas MQ might have to settle for it). This means they kill differently. There's also the fact that SK doesn't truly know who MQ are so they can't fullt plan the NKs, which means he would rather play safely and not risk killing the wrong team when he doesn't NEED the kill.

By the way, SK has full(!) bulletproof, so MQ targetting him isn't very useful (gives them information I guess?).

[raerae]

Space, if we lunch today, who are you're top two candidates?

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, if we lunch today, who are you're top two candidates?

I want to work out who I think is most likely to be the SK, and then push for that. I haven't worked out who it is yet.

I think the two Maquis players should claim, so I can remove them from my lynchpool for today :-)

[MiX]

Space, if we lunch today, who are you're top two candidates?

I want to work out who I think is most likely to be the SK, and then push for that. I haven't worked out who it is yet.

I think the two Maquis players should claim, so I can remove them from my lynchpool for today :-)

Do you believe a SK lynch's better than a MQ lynch? If so, why?

[WestCoastDidds]

By the way, SK has full(!) bulletproof, so MQ targetting him isn't very useful (gives them information I guess?).

So, the only way to off the SK is to lynch him?

[MiX]

By the way, SK has full(!) bulletproof, so MQ targetting him isn't very useful (gives them information I guess?).

So, the only way to off the SK is to lynch him?

Indeed.

[raerae]

Space, if we lunch today, who are you're top two candidates?

I want to work out who I think is most likely to be the SK, and then push for that. I haven't worked out who it is yet.

I think the two Maquis players should claim, so I can remove them from my lynchpool for today :-)

Can you give me the dumbed down version of the math on why a SK kill today gets town further than a MQ kill? 

[raerae]

Didds, who are your top two?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think I'm convinced that NL is more or less unwinnable for town, but quite good for Maquis.

I agree with this, which is also my argument against lynching Dax regardless of alignment.

I mean, I think we can all agree that scum lynch>no lynch>mislynch.

The point of my theorizing is we can fully control only one of those things.

This is equally true literally every day, it's still not an argument for No Lynch being preferable.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't fully understand why he didn't target anyone last night for a chance to be able to confirm to himself, WCD and Ash that this is the case.

It wasn't a strategic decision.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Posting what appears to be clearly incorrect information as cold, hard facts (as I believe he’s been doing all game) is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading to the point of detrimental action being taken. If the latter is on purpose, it is coming from scum.

Here is where raerae should mention he’s been all but impossible to lynch this game, which continues to be a scum tell.

This.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

"Admiral Ross, we need you to send us some reinforcements. I'm down to one enlistedman as my entire senior staff," Dax says, talking to the Admiral over subspace. "Miles is used to doing 10 jobs, but this is beyond even his abilities. I'm considering drafting some civilians to cover other duties."

No recruitments, O'Brien needs to be field promoted to Captain!

[MiX]

I think I'm convinced that NL is more or less unwinnable for town, but quite good for Maquis.

I agree with this, which is also my argument against lynching Dax regardless of alignment.

I don't believe town immediatly loses with a no lynch: the only problem seems to be that we enter next day in a strictly worse position, however, if we think Didds is scum, breaking the deathproof is enough of an upside that makes it worth it. Note how SK can't NK if we no lynch, which means the kills don't advance as much as Maquis would love.

Also taking the opportunity to say I made a list with all the possible starts for D6 (which is to say, all lynches and NKs), what's left is some PR analysis, still debating if I should put it in or not.

Posting what appears to be clearly incorrect information as cold, hard facts (as I believe he’s been doing all game) is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading to the point of detrimental action being taken. If the latter is on purpose, it is coming from scum.

Here is where raerae should mention he’s been all but impossible to lynch this game, which continues to be a scum tell.

This.

Wrong. And I was hard to lynch because all Maquis were on me (check the end of D2). But you're both scum, so meh, I'm not going to convince you, am I?

"Admiral Ross, we need you to send us some reinforcements. I'm down to one enlistedman as my entire senior staff," Dax says, talking to the Admiral over subspace. "Miles is used to doing 10 jobs, but this is beyond even his abilities. I'm considering drafting some civilians to cover other duties."

No recruitments, O'Brien needs to be field promoted to Captain!

I wish I could comment on flavor

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Really need to find the time to reread some stuff, not happening this afternoon sadly.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Posting what appears to be clearly incorrect information as cold, hard facts (as I believe he’s been doing all game) is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading to the point of detrimental action being taken. If the latter is on purpose, it is coming from scum.

Here is where raerae should mention he’s been all but impossible to lynch this game, which continues to be a scum tell.

This.

Wrong. And I was hard to lynch because all Maquis were on me (check the end of D2). But you're both scum, so meh, I'm not going to convince you, am I?

Good job responding to the part of it that I wasn't really talking about. Why can't SK NK if we No Lynch again?

[raerae]

I think I'm convinced that NL is more or less unwinnable for town, but quite good for Maquis.

I agree with this, which is also my argument against lynching Dax regardless of alignment.

I don't believe town immediatly loses with a no lynch: the only problem seems to be that we enter next day in a strictly worse position, however, if we think Didds is scum, breaking the deathproof is enough of an upside that makes it worth it. Note how SK can't NK if we no lynch, which means the kills don't advance as much as Maquis would love.

Also taking the opportunity to say I made a list with all the possible starts for D6 (which is to say, all lynches and NKs), what's left is some PR analysis, still debating if I should put it in or not.

Posting what appears to be clearly incorrect information as cold, hard facts (as I believe he’s been doing all game) is at best unhelpful and at worst misleading to the point of detrimental action being taken. If the latter is on purpose, it is coming from scum.

Here is where raerae should mention he’s been all but impossible to lynch this game, which continues to be a scum tell.

This.

Wrong. And I was hard to lynch because all Maquis were on me (check the end of D2). But you're both scum, so meh, I'm not going to convince you, am I?

"Admiral Ross, we need you to send us some reinforcements. I'm down to one enlistedman as my entire senior staff," Dax says, talking to the Admiral over subspace. "Miles is used to doing 10 jobs, but this is beyond even his abilities. I'm considering drafting some civilians to cover other duties."

No recruitments, O'Brien needs to be field promoted to Captain!

I wish I could comment on flavor

You keep saying a NL is so obviously the wrong choice but I have yet to see you back that up.  Like I said, we're guaranteed 4 going into tomorrow if we NL, we're guaranteed 3 if we lynch.  Nobody has countered that.  So, tell me how it's worse.

[MiX]

So here's that list that was a mess to make here because I can't copy things from elsewhere. Behold!

Mislynch (2v2v1):

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills nothing:  2v2v1, Neutral/Maquis favoured

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills town:  1v2v1, Maquis favoured

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills MQ:  2v1v1, Neutral

- MQ kills town, SK kills nothing:  1v2v1, Maquis favoured

- MQ kills town, SK kills town:  0v2v1, Maquis win

- MQ kills town, SK kills MQ:  1v1v1, SK win

MQ lynch (3v1v1):

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills nothing: 3v1v1, Town favoured

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills town:  2v1v1, Neutral

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills MQ:  3v0v1, Town (heavily) favoured

- MQ kills town, SK kills nothing:  2v1v1, Neutral

- MQ kills town, SK kills town:  1v1v1, SK win

- MQ kills town, SK kills MQ:  2v0v1, Town favoured

SK lynch (3v2v0):

- MQ kills town:  2v2, Maquis win

No Lynch (3v2v1):

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills nothing: 3v2v1, Current situation (ignoring this)

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills town:  2v2v1, Neutral/Maquis favoured

- MQ kills nothing/SK, SK kills MQ:  3v1v1, Town favoured

- MQ kills town, SK kills nothing:  2v2v1, Neutral/Maquis favoured

- MQ kills town, SK kills town:  1v2v1, Maquis favoured

- MQ kills town, SK kills MQ:  2v1v1, Neutral


What a mess. And this is without PRs! I don't think I have the courage to make a PR version of this... So, let's see what we can take from this:

- If we mislynch, SK aims for MQ (although he can miss) and MQ either do nothing or try to hope SK hits town. Overall, we'll probably reach 2v1v1, but if MQ NKs town loses, so it's a bit risky.

- If we lynch MQ, SK always has an incentive to NK town, thus MQ doesn't really want to NK here, So we'll almost always go to 2v1v1, which is what I fully expect will indeed happen.

- Note how we'll reach the same scenario with a MQ lynch and a Mislynch. This is actually something I've been underplaying, but it's truer than I thought. Obviously, MQ lynch is better overall (because SK can miss NKing MQ but if they miss NKing town we basically win) but this isn't really MyLo, to answer ash's earlier question.

- If we lynch SK, we need PRs to save us. I didn't put the "MQ kills nothing" event because they would never choose it, but it's possible. With the Didds claim, I don't think this will ever be the correct move, however we don't need to go all out and say no killing SK today, because even with the Dax claim, there's only 1/2 chance of MQ killing non-commuter if they're not commuter themselves, which aren't bad odds...if you don't consider that the chances commuter's town, which is 50%, so overall we have 25% chances of winning here. Just having done this math, it seems...bad, actually. I might remove Space from the lynch table for this reason. (Disclaimer: the probabilities above aren't accurate with everything we know about this game, I just don't think it matters much)

- If we no lynch, MQ always want to NK whereas SK only wants to NK MQ. So, we'll probably enter 2v2v1, or one of (1v2v1/2v1v1) if SK is feeling risky. This seems worse than the 2v1v1 scenario of lynching MQ.

- PRs only make scum have to pick "nothing" for their kill, which is bad if we would rather have, say, a kill. Obviously they're almost always good.


With the above scenarios and conclusions, I...er...conclude that NL is strictly worse than MQ lynch. All the neutral scenarios are some that highly depend on PRs and the mindgames scum want to play, which for obviously reasons won't say here, but they're situations that shouldn't benefit any party (and allow for town to win).

That is my reasoning behind lynching today. Any questions?

[raerae]

- If we mislynch, SK aims for MQ (although he can miss) and MQ either do nothing or try to hope SK hits town. Overall, we'll probably reach 2v1v1, but if MQ NKs town loses, so it's a bit risky.

- If we lynch MQ, SK always has an incentive to NK town, thus MQ doesn't really want to NK here, So we'll almost always go to 2v1v1, which is what I fully expect will indeed happen.

- Note how we'll reach the same scenario with a MQ lynch and a Mislynch. This is actually something I've been underplaying, but it's truer than I thought. Obviously, MQ lynch is better overall (because SK can miss NKing MQ but if they miss NKing town we basically win) but this isn't really MyLo, to answer ash's earlier question.

- If we lynch SK, we need PRs to save us. I didn't put the "MQ kills nothing" event because they would never choose it, but it's possible. With the Didds claim, I don't think this will ever be the correct move, however we don't need to go all out and say no killing SK today, because even with the Dax claim, there's only 1/2 chance of MQ killing non-commuter if they're not commuter themselves, which aren't bad odds...if you don't consider that the chances commuter's town, which is 50%, so overall we have 25% chances of winning here. Just having done this math, it seems...bad, actually. I might remove Space from the lynch table for this reason. (Disclaimer: the probabilities above aren't accurate with everything we know about this game, I just don't think it matters much)

- If we no lynch, MQ always want to NK whereas SK only wants to NK MQ. So, we'll probably enter 2v2v1, or one of (1v2v1/2v1v1) if SK is feeling risky. This seems worse than the 2v1v1 scenario of lynching MQ.

- PRs only make scum have to pick "nothing" for their kill, which is bad if we would rather have, say, a kill. Obviously they're almost always good.


With the above scenarios and conclusions, I...er...conclude that NL is strictly worse than MQ lynch. All the neutral scenarios are some that highly depend on PRs and the mindgames scum want to play, which for obviously reasons won't say here, but they're situations that shouldn't benefit any party (and allow for town to win).

That is my reasoning behind lynching today. Any questions?

Every question, in both mislynch and MQ lynch scenarios we end up in 2v1v1 according to your math.  In No Lynch we end up in 2v2v1 most likely, again, according to your own math.  And yet, No Lynch is strictly worse?  How can you stand by that when your own math doesn't?

[MiX]

Is that a scumslip? Should I assume that's a scumslip? How is 1 more Maquis being alive not strictly worse for town? XvYvZ is X town, Y Maquis and Z SK, so no lynch essencially helps MQ while doing nothing for town. If you think it's better for town, say so, I think it's worse.

[raerae]

Is that a scumslip? Should I assume that's a scumslip? How is 1 more Maquis being alive not strictly worse for town? XvYvZ is X town, Y Maquis and Z SK, so no lynch essencially helps MQ while doing nothing for town. If you think it's better for town, say so, I think it's worse.

What is "that"?  Point out my scumslip if you really want to go down this road.  I'm not going to allow anymore generic mud slinging.  If you've got a bone to pick with somebody, do it.

[MiX]

Is that a scumslip? Should I assume that's a scumslip? How is 1 more Maquis being alive not strictly worse for town? XvYvZ is X town, Y Maquis and Z SK, so no lynch essencially helps MQ while doing nothing for town. If you think it's better for town, say so, I think it's worse.

What is "that"?  Point out my scumslip if you really want to go down this road.  I'm not going to allow anymore generic mud slinging.  If you've got a bone to pick with somebody, do it.

I should really be more direct. Why do you think a 2v2v1 situation isn't strictly worse than a 2v1v1 situation?

[raerae]

Is that a scumslip? Should I assume that's a scumslip? How is 1 more Maquis being alive not strictly worse for town? XvYvZ is X town, Y Maquis and Z SK, so no lynch essencially helps MQ while doing nothing for town. If you think it's better for town, say so, I think it's worse.

What is "that"?  Point out my scumslip if you really want to go down this road.  I'm not going to allow anymore generic mud slinging.  If you've got a bone to pick with somebody, do it.

I should really be more direct. Why do you think a 2v2v1 situation isn't strictly worse than a 2v1v1 situation?

Because I was thinking your middle number was your town number. 

But I have another question, you said you want to kill the SK today but your math indicates that'll lead to a MQ win.  Was that a scumslip?

[MiX]

Is that a scumslip? Should I assume that's a scumslip? How is 1 more Maquis being alive not strictly worse for town? XvYvZ is X town, Y Maquis and Z SK, so no lynch essencially helps MQ while doing nothing for town. If you think it's better for town, say so, I think it's worse.

What is "that"?  Point out my scumslip if you really want to go down this road.  I'm not going to allow anymore generic mud slinging.  If you've got a bone to pick with somebody, do it.

I should really be more direct. Why do you think a 2v2v1 situation isn't strictly worse than a 2v1v1 situation?

Because I was thinking your middle number was your town number. 

But I have another question, you said you want to kill the SK today but your math indicates that'll lead to a MQ win.  Was that a scumslip?

Oh. Huh, although I said that in my original reply to your question, I never thought you could be confused. I should've been clearer.

I thought the chances of winning after lynching SK were higher, I underestimated Didds' claims and the fact that commuter can be scum. I don't want to lynch them anymore. In fact...it's worse than a mislynch. It's actually worse than a mislynch...I guess I was wrong. We can't lynch SK today.

[ashersky]

2v1v1 is very likely a town loss. If SK is lynched, mafia kills non-Deathproof townie who has to be the commuter AND have their commute left. If mafia is lynched, SK does the same. If it’s a mislynch, we probably ironically have the best chance if deathproof is still around.

Stop acting like 2v1v1 is our savior.  It’s just better than an immediate loss. 3v1v1 has to be the actual goal.

I’d say 3v1v1 > 3v2v1 > 2v2v1> 3v2

[MiX]

If we manage to do 3v1v1, I'll congratulate scum's inability to NK town. I think it's impossible to get there. 2v1v1 is the most likely outcome, which is why it's the best one.

2v2v1 is just worse...if we lynch MQ we'll be in the 2v1v1 situation all over again, and if we don't, Maquis wins.

2v1v1 is the best (that is likely to happen), because we essencially force 2v1 in the night, and if commuter and dax are still alive, it's a 1/2 chance of LyLo. Yeah, 1/2 chance of LyLo is our best shot.

We can't win 1v1v1, so obviously a mislynch on 2v1v1 is a town loss, remember SK has full(!) bulletproof.

If I were to make an order, it would go 3v0v1 > 2v0v1 > 3v1v1 > 2v1v1 > 3v2v1 > 2v2v1 > 1v2v1 for situations that town can win. I believe MQ lynch will put us from 3v2v1 to 2v1v1, which is an upgrade. Lynching MQ also allows the other 3 (that are better) to happen (and ONLY lynching MQ does this, because MQ will always NK if we no lynch), so I believe MQ lynch is strictly better than all the other options.

[WestCoastDidds]

The long post from MiX was actually helpful. It demonstrates that no lynching is not advantageous to us. The big takeaway is that we need to lynch Maquis? Cool. although, I kind of feel like we (or at least some of us) have been trying to do that and failing over and over again.

I'm not going to vote for raerae today. Or Space, either, probably.  Snow is at the top of my current list, unless someone has a reason that the probabilities are wrong and all of MiX's posts have been misleading today. MiX feels more SK than Maquis to me, but that is entirely subjective and based on my sense that he doesn't seem like he has partners that he thinks about when posting or that he has engaged in any kind of QT discussion.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm going to vote No Lynch unless somebody talks me out of it.  It guarantees 4 alive tomorrow, lynching today guarantees 3 alive tomorrow.  Somebody tell me why I'm wrong.  Not MiX, sorry, you've tried twice, I'm just not picking up what you're putting down.

I've just worked out that you're counting this in terms of players alive, but not really focusing on how many of them are townies.

There are three townies alive now, and three scums. We can only kill scums by lynching, (the SK can't be killed at all by the Maquis NK, and the SK has no incentive to kill off Maquis for us), so it's really bad to waste the chance to kill scum while we can. Otherwise we get to the point where scum are in the majority really fast. And while there are a few PRs that can help with it, not all of them are likely to be in town's hands.

If we no-lynch, the most likely outcome is that one or two of the three townies dies in the night, one single townie against three scums, or two townies against three scums at best. Is that really what you think we need to be aiming for, rather than having the same number of townies but fewer scums?

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm not going to vote for raerae today. Or Space, either, probably.

It's good that you're probably not voting for me if you're aiming to strike Maquis: remember I'm EFHW-confirmed non-Maquis!

[MiX]

The long post from MiX was actually helpful. It demonstrates that no lynching is not advantageous to us. The big takeaway is that we need to lynch Maquis? Cool. although, I kind of feel like we (or at least some of us) have been trying to do that and failing over and over again.

I'm not going to vote for raerae today. Or Space, either, probably.  Snow is at the top of my current list, unless someone has a reason that the probabilities are wrong and all of MiX's posts have been misleading today. MiX feels more SK than Maquis to me, but that is entirely subjective and based on my sense that he doesn't seem like he has partners that he thinks about when posting or that he has engaged in any kind of QT discussion.

You know, you're a sucker for long posts aren't you? I mean this in a cute way: last time I made a wall post (my D1 VCA) you townread me, now you're doing it again, I find it...charming, really. Everyone else: is this common? I don't remember this from briefly rereading Didds, but I was mostly focused around her voting pattern.

Are you definitely not voting for raerae, or just probably? I would love to refine my read on raerae with people I believe are town, which in this case is only you.

PPE 2: Yesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyesyes. Well, that's for the first post. The second post says "I'm SK", but I'm biased.

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm not going to vote for raerae today. Or Space, either, probably.

It's good that you're probably not voting for me if you're aiming to strike Maquis: remember I'm EFHW-confirmed non-Maquis!

Oh, yeah! This is why I all forgive almost all lapses in others.  The memory struggle is real.

[WestCoastDidds]

You know, you're a sucker for long posts aren't you? I mean this in a cute way: last time I made a wall post (my D1 VCA) you townread me, now you're doing it again, I find it...charming, really. Everyone else: is this common? I don't remember this from briefly rereading Didds, but I was mostly focused around her voting pattern.

Are you definitely not voting for raerae, or just probably? I would love to refine my read on raerae with people I believe are town, which in this case is only you.

Good lord, no. You have all kinds of super long posts that I quit reading half-way through because I can't follow you and don't really see the point or where you are going.  Please, don't ever aim for length. That is, in no way, my preference. This one was helpful because (like raerae) I was having a hard time following all of the #v#v# notations and scenarios, but couldn't even figure out the question to ask.  So, saying we should lynch Maquis is obvious for those who were following already, but a new conclusion for me.

I don't see raerae happening today, or Space.  Snow, though.... What do you think about Snow?

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, I am not town reading you for it. I think you're the SK.

[ashersky]

Should we all put down prelim guesses? Can’t hurt.

SA for SK
MiX for Mafia
raerae for town

That leaves one out of WCD and UoS?  Before the claim, I was leaning WCD. Now?  Dunno.

[raerae]

Should we all put down prelim guesses? Can’t hurt.

SA for SK
MiX for Mafia
raerae for town

That leaves one out of WCD and UoS?  Before the claim, I was leaning WCD. Now?  Dunno.

Love it! MiX, you're up next, then Didds, UoS, and Space. I hardly think my reads are a secret but I'll round it out at the end.

[raerae]

Should we all put down prelim guesses? Can’t hurt.

SA for SK
MiX for Mafia
raerae for town

That leaves one out of WCD and UoS?  Before the claim, I was leaning WCD. Now?  Dunno.

Since the crickets are the only ones around right now...What about her claim leans town to you?

[WestCoastDidds]

It’s the middle of the night in Europe. We’ll be waiting for awhile on MiX.

[raerae]

It’s the middle of the night in Europe. We’ll be waiting for awhile on MiX.

If you want to jump the queue I'm cool with it.

[MiX]

Should we all put down prelim guesses? Can’t hurt.

SA for SK
MiX for Mafia
raerae for town

That leaves one out of WCD and UoS?  Before the claim, I was leaning WCD. Now?  Dunno.

Love it! MiX, you're up next, then Didds, UoS, and Space. I hardly think my reads are a secret but I'll round it out at the end.

SA is SK
Ash/Snow are Mafia
Didds is Town

We either do popcorn or at the very least you say your reads before Didds, I don't trust you enough. If popcorn then I nominate Snow.

[MiX]

Also, I am not town reading you for it. I think you're the SK.

Awwww. Also, to reply to your above post, I suppose you like effort, but then I realized the 2 posts are all peak helpfullness for me, so I guess my theory of "Didds likes long posts with effort" is wrong.

[ashersky]

Should we all put down prelim guesses? Can’t hurt.

SA for SK
MiX for Mafia
raerae for town

That leaves one out of WCD and UoS?  Before the claim, I was leaning WCD. Now?  Dunno.

Since the crickets are the only ones around right now...What about her claim leans town to you?

It’s not that it’s a particularly towny claim, more that I don’t see mafia!wcd making it. SK!wcd sure, so I guess that’s more feasible.

[WestCoastDidds]

So, Snow does his reads next?

[MiX]

So, Snow does his reads next?

I hope so. Just waiting for that now.

[WestCoastDidds]

Also, I am not town reading you for it. I think you're the SK.

Awwww. Also, to reply to your above post, I suppose you like effort, but then I realized the 2 posts are all peak helpfullness for me, so I guess my theory of "Didds likes long posts with effort" is wrong.

Yes...helpfulness is what I’m reacting to....not length!

[SpaceAnemone]

Sorry for the cricket noises coming from over here! I never wake up early enough to post thinky content before work, and work itself has been too busy today.

Anyway, early in D5 I recall thinking to myself that raerae and Ash felt like two people starting up on the same page as one another. Reading back, it's not that apparent, but certainly earlier in the day they'd have been my "gut" pick for Maquis. Though looking at the wagons, that pair is rather less likely-looking. That's why I need time to sit and collate my different thoughts!

I know lots of people are unwilling to look at raerae, but honestly her conviction to the no-lynch when her own argument for it is clearly totally missing the point of optimising the number of townies alive is a bit worrying. That sort of stubbornness is probably quite easy for scum to hide behind, though. Was she also the one making comments in D5 about MiX being hard to lynch, or was that someone else trying to stir things up hiding behind something else she'd said earlier on? There was something scummy going on there, anyway, because I'm still convinced that it was our dead IC (and also to a lesser extent e) who were arguing most loudly for his towniness, and I'm up for keeping their input in mind.

As for who the SK is, I don't have much of a picture. UoS is a bit too much under the radar so far today. If WCD is the SK, we're probably doomed, though it's worth checking out how the SK bulletproof stacks with the deathproof -- has anyone asked a mod about that yet? This is one of those cases where I think we might improve our odds of a town win overall if we commit to a strategy where we don't even try to protect ourselves from the possibility that we have a deathproof-bulletproof-SK, and just try to cover the rest of the possible scenarios a bit more thoroughly. I think Ash pointed out a "non-SK slip" from MiX, which maybe even gives a few townpoints to each of them, but probably not too many.

[MiX]

I like your scum!raerae points, and are some I've been trying to deal with myself, now knowing that every scum was on my wagon makes her continuous push on me less towny. I also didn't like how ash and raerae both said the same things regarding no lynch...this is also why I'm voting for ash and not snow right now, ash!raerae seems to make more sense than snow!raerae. Everything just makes ash scum to be honest.

If Didds is SK we need to lynch her right now or we lose, which essencially puts us in the No Lynch scenario, and if she's not SK then we basically lose.

If Dax is SK and is targetted with a NK, does he lose deathrproof, or does bulletproof protect it?

[SpaceAnemone]

If Didds is SK we need to lynch her right now or we lose, which essencially puts us in the No Lynch scenario, and if she's not SK then we basically lose.

Can we even win if she's SK?

D5: Dax lynch -> Dax doesn't die but Ezri replaces Jadzia. (3T,2Maq,1SK)
N5: Ezri takes out one town player, other Maquis shoots town. (2T,1Maq,1SK) OR (1T,2Maq,1SK)
D6: We re-lynch Dax, since it's the only way to kill her. (2T,1Maq) OR (1T,2Maq)
N6: In the 2T case, it's down to slim chances with PRs in N6&D7, in the 1T case, it's a pretty unavoidable Maquis win.

Okay, so it boils down to more or less the same reliance on town's PR spread as my "let's kill the SK". Given that I was initially pro-SK-kill and then became persuaded that perhaps a Maquis kill is okay, let's check what happens if Didds is Maquis and we lynch her:

D5: Dax lynch -> Dax doesn't die but Ezri replaces Jadzia. (3T,2Maq,1SK)
N5: Maquis probably kill town; SK may kill either. (2T,1Maq,1SK) OR (1T,2Maq,1SK) OR (2T,2Maq,1SK) -- if kills overlap or SK is targeted by Maq.
D6 in (2T,1Maq,1SK): if we can lynch the SK, then it just depends on the town PRs. If not, SK may win.
D6 in (1T,2Maq,1SK): I think there's no way for town to win this.
D6 in (2T,2Maq,1SK): This is the same as what happens in the mislynch case, and is not great for town.

The other possibility that nobody's mentioned is that if Dax is Maquis, she could have swapped claims with her remaining buddy, as a deterrent. I think it's highly unlikely, because if we lynch someone and they fail to die, we know immediately that they and Didds are the Maquis. But I'm not sure it's a gamble no scums would ever take, so it's worth mentioning, at least to be sure we've examined all the options.

Lastly, I haven't forgotten that the e wagon of D1 has WCD as the only unflipped person on it and I'd used that as factor in scumreading e at the time he was lynched, it's just everyone else has moderately-scummy-looking things too (like Ash's hammers or raerae being off-wagon on unpopular votes way more than average), so it could just be a once-in-a-game sort of coincidence.

[SpaceAnemone]

If Dax is SK and is targetted with a NK, does he lose deathrproof, or does bulletproof protect it?

I could have asked the mod myself, but what I was actually asking for was a feel for who'd been even considering the question, not the outright answer right away in-thread...

[WestCoastDidds]

I am 100% not the SK or Maquis, so all of this work is for naught...and the effort put into it makes both Space and MiX seem like they are engaging in smoke-and-mirrors work, but I will try to give them the benefit of the doubt. But, really folks, your time is better spent elsewhere.  Cross my heart and everything. I don't have any way to make myself more trustworthy except to say that I haven't lied at any point in this game. I am sometimes confused, sometimes chatty, and sometimes defensive, but I have never been untruthful or even truth skirting.

The whole reason I outed myself as Dax was so that we could properly account for it when we were playing through scenarios about how many town we have left. I figure the deathproof makes me sort of 1.5 of a person. Lynching me is the same as a no- lynch and at the time I thought a no-lynch sounded like a bad idea, and as a result lynching me sounded like a bad idea for town.  If someone were to convince me that me dying sooner rather than later was good for town, I'd happily offer myself up. I really want us to win (the Radch loss still stings) and I know that I am not the strongest we have as far as players, so I am a good sacrifice.

As far as the others....I am not sure that Raerae deserves all of the town passes she is getting. Other than being stubborn about voting MiX, I don't have her appearing much in my notes. Nothing scummy,though, so there is that. Snow is off the edge of my radar, which can't be good. MiX seems scummy, but not partnered, so I like him for the SK, although Space is in there, too. Ashersky is enigmatic to me.

So, my scum list is Snow; SK is MiX or Space.

[MiX]

If Dax is SK and is targetted with a NK, does he lose deathrproof, or does bulletproof protect it?

I could have asked the mod myself, but what I was actually asking for was a feel for who'd been even considering the question, not the outright answer right away in-thread...

The question somewhat answers your question: no one had thought about this IIRC. Also the answer is pretty important.

No MQ would fakeclaim Dax here, because the odds of lynching the other MQ is pretty high...well, it's not the worst play, actually. If this happened, well done Didds, this really reduces our chances to lynch MQ soon enough for it to matter.

To adress your NKs list, I was ready to poke holes in it, but they seem solid. Remember that if Didds is one of the scumteam, the other scum doesn't know it, which means they may shoot her again in case they townread her (despite whatever it is they say in the day). That changes things, but barely, and I'm not sure where exactly it changes, so you're good.

If you think Didds' MQ, who would be her partner? I think no one works...wait, maybe me? Would love to know your answer.

PPE 1: Understandable. Not happy you gave reads before Snow but...whatever, it shouldn't matter much. The tryhard player in me wants to say "why did you give reads before your scumread??" but I know you wouldn't think like that. Vobe: Didds.

[SpaceAnemone]

I like your scum!raerae points

Cool. I'm quoting this because "descriptor!name" is the typical way of using the "!" notation you see around here, at least going back as far as two or three years ago when I started reading.

ash!raerae seems to make more sense than snow!raerae.

And I'm quoting these because as far as I can remember, the only person who does "name!name" notation is Swan, and for some of the rest of us it grates exactly like a grammar mistake :-P

Just to keep my post from being uninformative in the game sense, I think I'm feeling like my preferred lynchpool for the day is raerae, Ash and UoS.

[SpaceAnemone]

I am 100% not the SK or Maquis, so all of this work is for naught...and the effort put into it makes both Space and MiX seem like they are engaging in smoke-and-mirrors work, but I will try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I suspect you're witnessing people who are not very good at reads trying to logic their way out of a situation when it's looking bad for their team. At least, it's true for me!

As for other things you said, there is a disadvantage to outing any more PRs, and that is that there may be a particular one that's not currently in Maquis hands and that they'd very much like to ensure a win... the more info we give them to narrow it down, the better it is for them. So I think all unclaimed PRs shouldn't claim, and should be careful not to softclaim.

I've also just remembered that I was scumreading UoS a little for this:

MiX: let's assume Ash claims (WLOG) Yates. What is your read on Ash in that case?

While UoS isn't outright asking MiX whether he's Yates, it's clear that if MiX himself is Yates, then his response will be less considered than if it's a role he'd actually think that Ash might have. That seemed like subtle role-fishing on UoS's part, and more likely to come from Maquis, who have more chance of strategising for the endgame than the SK would.

[jotheonah]

I like your scum!raerae points, and are some I've been trying to deal with myself, now knowing that every scum was on my wagon makes her continuous push on me less towny. I also didn't like how ash and raerae both said the same things regarding no lynch...this is also why I'm voting for ash and not snow right now, ash!raerae seems to make more sense than snow!raerae. Everything just makes ash scum to be honest.

If Didds is SK we need to lynch her right now or we lose, which essencially puts us in the No Lynch scenario, and if she's not SK then we basically lose.

If Dax is SK and is targetted with a NK, does he lose deathrproof, or does bulletproof protect it?

Bulletproof would kick in first.

[raerae]

Remind me again, we're lynching the SK today?

[raerae]

Remind me again, we're lynching the SK today?

Better question, or at least phrased so I can understand it better than all the math that's getting tossed about, if we kill Maquis today the SK has no interest in killing the other Maquis tonight, correct?  This is why we're killing the SK today?

[raerae]

@Ash, what do you think about claiming?  With Didds out in the open we really don't have that much left to hide, right? 

[WestCoastDidds]

Remind me again, we're lynching the SK today?

I think the best scenario for town is up lynch Maquis yoday. That was the result of the Mix monster post

[raerae]

Remind me again, we're lynching the SK today?

I think the best scenario for town is up lynch Maquis yoday. That was the result of the Mix monster post

But don't you think the SK tries to kill town then tonight instead of MQ?  I don't see a situation where the SK deliberately makes themselves the only scum available to lynch.

[MiX]

Remind me again, we're lynching the SK today?

I think the best scenario for town is up lynch Maquis yoday. That was the result of the Mix monster post

But don't you think the SK tries to kill town then tonight instead of MQ?  I don't see a situation where the SK deliberately makes themselves the only scum available to lynch.

And if we lynch SK, MQ just kills town for the win. We need to force a 2v1v1 that has the potential to be better than that, and the only lynch that does that is MQ.

@Ash, what do you think about claiming?  With Didds out in the open we really don't have that much left to hide, right? 

Whatever you do, don't claim any non-Garak role.

[MiX]

I like your scum!raerae points

Cool. I'm quoting this because "descriptor!name" is the typical way of using the "!" notation you see around here, at least going back as far as two or three years ago when I started reading.

ash!raerae seems to make more sense than snow!raerae.

And I'm quoting these because as far as I can remember, the only person who does "name!name" notation is Swan, and for some of the rest of us it grates exactly like a grammar mistake :-P

I like to use the same notation for both, but I know the second version isn't well accepted. I don't like to use "/" all the time and "!" already says they're a team as opposed to "/", which seems to imply one of those options. I don't know, does it hurt that much? It's usually unambiguous.

[ashersky]

I think no one should claim from here on out, ever.

We are going to lynch someone, and trying NOT to lynch certain scum is just a weird concept that we can’t really follow. I mean, if someone claims SK at L-1, do we stop?  And then if someone counterclaims?

[MiX]

I think no one should claim from here on out, ever.

We are going to lynch someone, and trying NOT to lynch certain scum is just a weird concept that we can’t really follow. I mean, if someone claims SK at L-1, do we stop?  And then if someone counterclaims?

Easy way to avoid this is to not go after our SK reads, which includes letting Space off the hook today. If people wanna claim SK at L-1, let them, if we get a counterclaim then we nab 2 scum, easy mode. Reminder that town shouldn't lie here.

[WestCoastDidds]

I am 100% not the SK or Maquis, so all of this work is for naught...and the effort put into it makes both Space and MiX seem like they are engaging in smoke-and-mirrors work, but I will try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I suspect you're witnessing people who are not very good at reads trying to logic their way out of a situation when it's looking bad for their team. At least, it's true for me!

Fair enough. The complexity of this game seems to have some/most of us back on our heels.

As for other things you said, there is a disadvantage to outing any more PRs, and that is that there may be a particular one that's not currently in Maquis hands and that they'd very much like to ensure a win... the more info we give them to narrow it down, the better it is for them. So I think all unclaimed PRs shouldn't claim, and should be careful not to softclaim.

So, here is a question...this coupled with Space's earlier comment about raerae not thinking more town alive is better for us. In the last handful of messages raerae has asked Ash if we should claim, and also said we need to lynch the SK instead of Maquis.  What do you all think is going on here? Is that scummy, or not keeping up, or just not agreeing with the conclusions that are being reached about the best way for town to win. One seems forgetful or a misunderstanding, but the trio... I don't know.

Is this worse that Snow's absence and low level of engagement?

[SpaceAnemone]

As for other things you said, there is a disadvantage to outing any more PRs, and that is that there may be a particular one that's not currently in Maquis hands and that they'd very much like to ensure a win... the more info we give them to narrow it down, the better it is for them. So I think all unclaimed PRs shouldn't claim, and should be careful not to softclaim.

So, here is a question...this coupled with Space's earlier comment about raerae not thinking more town alive is better for us. In the last handful of messages raerae has asked Ash if we should claim, and also said we need to lynch the SK instead of Maquis.  What do you all think is going on here? Is that scummy, or not keeping up, or just not agreeing with the conclusions that are being reached about the best way for town to win. One seems forgetful or a misunderstanding, but the trio... I don't know.

Is this worse that Snow's absence and low level of engagement?

I can't really say anything about Snow's absence. I do know that sometimes people just don't have enough hours in the day.

As for the post from raerae you mentioned, the fact she's appealing to Ash in particular is a bit odd, and is perhaps part of an underlying pattern which is what gave me the feeling that raerae and Ash are in concert.

I don't think it's as clear as MiX's post suggests that killing the SK is worse than killing Maquis: he asserts that 2 town, 1 Maquis and 1 SK is "neutral", whereas I have trouble seeing that as a town win, and Ash has picked up on that too.

To illustrate why 2T, 1M, 1SK is a likely loss, consider what happens even if one of the scums is a correct D7 lynch: N7 starts with 2T and one scum: the expectation is to have 1T and 1 scum alive the next day barring having a still-active PR to save the day. Even if you (Didds) are town, all scums already know that you've announced you're not a good person to target, so in that set of circumstances, you're likely to be the last town standing, and you're also guaranteed not to be the double-voter, so it's a town loss. The only thing that could save us is a commuting townie meaning that the remaining scum can't kill N7, meaning there would be two townies standing at the start of D8, then it would be a standard 3-person lylo. So, that's a very slim chance of a win, and that's in the best-case scenario where we have a correct D7 lynch anyway!

[SpaceAnemone]

The more I think through this stuff, the more I think it's going to boil down to PRs saving us even with optimal play by town and errors by scum. If we go into D7 with 1 or 0 townies alive, I think there's no way for town to win, even if our 1-shot-deathproof person is town. These eight situations are everything I think could happen going into D7 with 2 or more townies and the various D5 lynch/N5 kill patterns:
(3T, 2M, 1SK)
(3T, 1M, 1SK)
(3T, 0M, 1SK)
(2T, 2M, 1SK)
(2T, 1M, 1SK)
(2T, 0M, 1SK)
(3T, 2M, 0SK)
(2T, 2M, 0SK)


Maybe it's useful to agree on which of the possible combinations leads to even a potential win from here.

(3T, 2M, 1SK) -> Status quo (Happens only after no-lynch, with scum failing to kill, so not likely, and almost certainly worse than now).
(3T, 1M, 1SK) -> Possible win if we lynch scum D7.
(3T, 0M, 1SK) -> Possible win.
(2T, 2M, 1SK) -> Probable loss, depends on PR distribution.
(2T, 1M, 1SK) -> Probable loss, depends on PR distribution.
(2T, 0M, 1SK) -> Standard 3-person lylo, possible win.
(3T, 2M, 0SK) -> Standard 5-person lylo, possible win.
(2T, 2M, 0SK) -> Probable loss.

Does anyone think these evaluations are incorrect?

[MiX]

I feel like raerae, more than anyone here, loves to be contrarian and go against the general consensus of town. You can see that D1 with questioning the townread on shraeye, and then it manifests itself in the scumread on me, which seems to be "MiX is so obviously scum how does no one see it??? ?? ??", among other things, I'm sure they exist. So it makes sense that raerae would completely disagree with everything we're saying today, especially things coming from me, which seems to be coherent with her overall stubborness on (not) claiming Garak and no lynch.

I'm seriously considering voting for Snow if he doesn't post after 48 hours since his last post, ash's maneuver is kinda stalling us and I'm somewhat scumreading him for it but at this point it's just tunnelling. To be honest I would be perfectly fine with a lynch right now, I already had to give countless information to scum regarding NKs and I think getting to L-1 ASAP is the best thing to do this day.

I don't think it's as clear as MiX's post suggests that killing the SK is worse than killing Maquis: he asserts that 2 town, 1 Maquis and 1 SK is "neutral", whereas I have trouble seeing that as a town win, and Ash has picked up on that too.

To illustrate why 2T, 1M, 1SK is a likely loss, consider what happens even if one of the scums is a correct D7 lynch: N7 starts with 2T and one scum: the expectation is to have 1T and 1 scum alive the next day barring having a still-active PR to save the day. Even if you (Didds) are town, all scums already know that you've announced you're not a good person to target, so in that set of circumstances, you're likely to be the last town standing, and you're also guaranteed not to be the double-voter, so it's a town loss. The only thing that could save us is a commuting townie meaning that the remaining scum can't kill N7, meaning there would be two townies standing at the start of D8, then it would be a standard 3-person lylo. So, that's a very slim chance of a win, and that's in the best-case scenario where we have a correct D7 lynch anyway!

Of course it's a likely loss: by every standard, we lost when Uncle flipped town, or more concretely when EFHW flipped, but we were doomed anyway. The probability of even having a chance after lynching SK are less than the one of doing the same after lynching MQ. This is about relative winrates: we're in a tough spot and nothing will save us from it. MQ lynch simply puts us in the best possible position: 2v1v1; while also allowing for scum to misplay, putting us in an even better position. 2v1v1's neutral because neither MQ nor SK nor Town want it, but they need to reach it: yes, it's not town favoured, otherwise I would've written "town favoured". I believe it will be incredibly easy to win LyLo, given that we'll have freaking 6 days worth of day chatter and NK analysis to look back to.

The more I think through this stuff, the more I think it's going to boil down to PRs saving us even with optimal play by town and errors by scum. If we go into D7 with 1 or 0 townies alive, I think there's no way for town to win, even if our 1-shot-deathproof person is town.

This is correct, town cannot win with 2 town flips. Next post's after I read the rest of your post.

[ashersky]

Rushing everyone at this juncture is scummy, but the “Incredibly easy to win lylo” statement seals it for me.  Cannot be town.

vote: mix

(Re: UoS, I’m willing to give him the IRL pass, given previous experiences. A prod and maybe replacement is worth considering?)

[MiX]

(3T, 2M, 1SK) -> Status quo (Happens only after no-lynch, with scum failing to kill, so not likely, and almost certainly worse than now).
(3T, 1M, 1SK) -> Possible win if we lynch scum D7.
(3T, 0M, 1SK) -> Possible win.
(2T, 2M, 1SK) -> Probable loss, depends on PR distribution.
(2T, 1M, 1SK) -> Probable loss, depends on PR distribution.
(2T, 0M, 1SK) -> Standard 3-person lylo, possible win.
(3T, 2M, 0SK) -> Standard 5-person lylo, possible win.
(2T, 2M, 0SK) -> Probable loss.

Does anyone think these evaluations are incorrect?

3v1v1 is 5-person LyLo;
3v0v1 is a win;
2v2v1 is a loss, because MQ can just shoot Didds, so SK's NK on MQ bring us to 2v1v1 without deathproof so we lose. This is, assuming Didds is town.
2v1v1 is LyLo iff commuter's town (assuming Didds is town)
2v0v1 is 3-person LyLo
3v2v0 is 5-person LyLo
2v2v0 is a loss, don't we get endgamed? Does double voter change it?

This is all operating on "1v1v1 is SK win", if MQ thinks they can win here then town already lost. This is the most important question ever.

In a Town/Maquis/SK situation (1v1v1), is anyone endgamed or is it played out? Reminder that town cannot win in this position, but they can act as a kingmaker depending on who they vote.

Rushing everyone at this juncture is scummy, but the “Incredibly easy to win lylo” statement seals it for me.  Cannot be town.

vote: mix

(Re: UoS, I’m willing to give him the IRL pass, given previous experiences. A prod and maybe replacement is worth considering?)

You know I'm onto Snow as your partner and you wanna lynch me? You also know that Space is SK? Thx for saying that, I wasn't so sure

[ashersky]

Man, you seem new here, so you’ve been getting pass after pass, but you need to tone it down. If you new the history of the forum going back to the lowest numbered games, you’d have an inkling of what I’m talking about regarding UoS and real life.

On f.ds, we believe real life trumps fake online games, every time. We respect each player’s needs outside of the forum, especially when it comes to personal issues that may or may not be shared.

You can continue to assume whatever you want regarding the players here, but as long as you continue to spout off as you seem won’t to do, I will not consider anything you say to be truthful or trustworthy. Your statement in response to SA that 3v0v1 is a win is simple proof of that. SA was correct in her post that it is possible; you are wrong that it is certain.

Yes, we are all fake online avatars on a blue-hued discussion board originally built to discuss Dominion. But we are also all human beings with human lives behind them, and the best thing about f.ds is that that sentiment is paramount. We’ve lost great players to situations where that was forgotten or ignored. I feel like it’s going to happen again.

[SpaceAnemone]

This is all operating on "1v1v1 is SK win", if MQ thinks they can win here then town already lost. This is the most important question ever.

On the contrary, I think it's an irrelevant question, because whoever wins in that scenario, it's not going to be town, and a town win is all I care about. Just to be clear, it is not helpful here for you to be posting anything about how Maquis or SK should play unless it's strictly better for town's wincon in all possible scenarios as well. I can understand that from a completionist point of view it's nice to lay everything out on the table, but I will scumread you hard for doing any more of that.

[raerae]

I think no one should claim from here on out, ever.

We are going to lynch someone, and trying NOT to lynch certain scum is just a weird concept that we can’t really follow. I mean, if someone claims SK at L-1, do we stop?  And then if someone counterclaims?

Space gave me an idea and I'm kind of counting on somebody fake claiming.

[MiX]

Man, you seem new here, so you’ve been getting pass after pass, but you need to tone it down. If you new the history of the forum going back to the lowest numbered games, you’d have an inkling of what I’m talking about regarding UoS and real life.

On f.ds, we believe real life trumps fake online games, every time. We respect each player’s needs outside of the forum, especially when it comes to personal issues that may or may not be shared.

You can continue to assume whatever you want regarding the players here, but as long as you continue to spout off as you seem won’t to do, I will not consider anything you say to be truthful or trustworthy. Your statement in response to SA that 3v0v1 is a win is simple proof of that. SA was correct in her post that it is possible; you are wrong that it is certain.

Yes, we are all fake online avatars on a blue-hued discussion board originally built to discuss Dominion. But we are also all human beings with human lives behind them, and the best thing about f.ds is that that sentiment is paramount. We’ve lost great players to situations where that was forgotten or ignored. I feel like it’s going to happen again.

I'm not assuming anything about Snow because I don't know anything about Snow's real life. I see no reason to assume it's neither intentional nor unintentional. My post replying to yours was about your vote on me, not about your knowledge of Snow's IRL situation, because I have no idea what that is. I also don't see how obvious hyperbole about probabilities is that bad, but if you want I can explain myself: it's not even MyLo, since commuter can save us, so it's essencially the best situation ever, which for me might as well be a win, because we cannot do better.

This is all operating on "1v1v1 is SK win", if MQ thinks they can win here then town already lost. This is the most important question ever.

On the contrary, I think it's an irrelevant question, because whoever wins in that scenario, it's not going to be town, and a town win is all I care about. Just to be clear, it is not helpful here for you to be posting anything about how Maquis or SK should play unless it's strictly better for town's wincon in all possible scenarios as well. I can understand that from a completionist point of view it's nice to lay everything out on the table, but I will scumread you hard for doing any more of that.

If I didn't explain myself raerae would ask, AGAIN, "why must SK kill MQ in a mislynch" or "why can't SK kill town in no lynch", the only way I can answer this is with detailing what scum are thinking about. Also, the 1v1v1 scenario plays a LOT into what MQ are attempting.


I also realized something bad for us...we're in a worse situation than I thought. I don't want to disclose anything, but...I'll need to think.

[raerae]

Also, you can call me scum all you want but I can't see all the #v#v# posts. They mean nothing to me, I can't read them. When I say I'm bad at math I mean numbers like that scare the everliving fuck out of me and turn off my brain. I try to read those posts, I split them into little chunks and try to make sense of them a bit at a time but ultimately very little comes through. So, if I keep asking for the moral of the story, I'm sorry but it's because I don't get it and you're taking to the dumb kid in the class.

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

[MiX]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

Can you quote yourself saying you were townreading ash? I skimmed you and didn't find anything.

[raerae]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

Can you quote yourself saying you were townreading ash? I skimmed you and didn't find anything.

Then read harder, I've been saying it since D1 or D2.  I said it today at the beginning of the day if memory serves.  We aren't going to do this "It doesn't exist" nonsense again.

[MiX]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

Can you quote yourself saying you were townreading ash? I skimmed you and didn't find anything.

Then read harder, I've been saying it since D1 or D2.  I said it today at the beginning of the day if memory serves.  We aren't going to do this "It doesn't exist" nonsense again.

Sorry, I forgot your "Ash and I are town" comment at the start.

I also realized something bad for us...we're in a worse situation than I thought. I don't want to disclose anything, but...I'll need to think.

Ignore this, it's much less drastic than I thought.

[raerae]

Or, instead of playing games, I can just...

Vote: MiX.

My thought is that he's Garak which is why he's so comfortable throwing that around at everybody else.
 Shraeye's early death made it easy for them because he could just bus drive his partner all the way to the moon and back. I think it worked too because it took Space off the Maquis list. They've been low-key defending MiX, almost but not quite town reading him all game, and now deferring to the all powerful, may he rest in peace, King of the Thread Faust's town read on MiX as gospel.

As for who the SK is, Didds, maybe? Ash, maybe (because wouldn't that just serve me right)? I don't know but they get my vote for MVP.

[raerae]

And that's l-1? Or l-2? Does it take three or four to lunch today?

[MiX]

Or, instead of playing games, I can just...

Vote: MiX.

My thought is that he's Garak which is why he's so comfortable throwing that around at everybody else.
 Shraeye's early death made it easy for them because he could just bus drive his partner all the way to the moon and back. I think it worked too because it took Space off the Maquis list. They've been low-key defending MiX, almost but not quite town reading him all game, and now deferring to the all powerful, may he rest in peace, King of the Thread Faust's town read on MiX as gospel.

As for who the SK is, Didds, maybe? Ash, maybe (because wouldn't that just serve me right)? I don't know but they get my vote for MVP.

I have already claimed I'm not Garak yesterday I believe, maybe just today. Also what are you even talking about with "They've been low-key defending MiX, almost but not quote town reading him all game"? Ooooooooooh you think it's ash and me? Then vote for ash! I'm more than happy to bus.

[raerae]

Or, instead of playing games, I can just...

Vote: MiX.

My thought is that he's Garak which is why he's so comfortable throwing that around at everybody else.
 Shraeye's early death made it easy for them because he could just bus drive his partner all the way to the moon and back. I think it worked too because it took Space off the Maquis list. They've been low-key defending MiX, almost but not quite town reading him all game, and now deferring to the all powerful, may he rest in peace, King of the Thread Faust's town read on MiX as gospel.

As for who the SK is, Didds, maybe? Ash, maybe (because wouldn't that just serve me right)? I don't know but they get my vote for MVP.

I have already claimed I'm not Garak yesterday I believe, maybe just today. Also what are you even talking about with "They've been low-key defending MiX, almost but not quote town reading him all game"? Ooooooooooh you think it's ash and me? Then vote for ash! I'm more than happy to bus.

For once I was not being an ass and using Space's preferred pronouns, I think I've been using she/her all game.  So that might as well have read "Space has been...". 

[MiX]

Or, instead of playing games, I can just...

Vote: MiX.

My thought is that he's Garak which is why he's so comfortable throwing that around at everybody else.
 Shraeye's early death made it easy for them because he could just bus drive his partner all the way to the moon and back. I think it worked too because it took Space off the Maquis list. They've been low-key defending MiX, almost but not quite town reading him all game, and now deferring to the all powerful, may he rest in peace, King of the Thread Faust's town read on MiX as gospel.

As for who the SK is, Didds, maybe? Ash, maybe (because wouldn't that just serve me right)? I don't know but they get my vote for MVP.

I have already claimed I'm not Garak yesterday I believe, maybe just today. Also what are you even talking about with "They've been low-key defending MiX, almost but not quote town reading him all game"? Ooooooooooh you think it's ash and me? Then vote for ash! I'm more than happy to bus.

For once I was not being an ass and using Space's preferred pronouns, I think I've been using she/her all game.  So that might as well have read "Space has been...". 

...wait what? You think it's Space and me? That's so awkward. Who would assume Space was getting copped...what night was it that they were copped? no way I would ever waste a PR like that. That scumteam sounds convenient, but also paranoid, overall I think it's null...

[MiX]

Space was copped N1? And you think I would use my one shot bus drive on them? Weird. Not sure what this makes you, I think it's an interesting gambit but it also makes no sense as someone with a Garak partner, which seems to be the most likely scumteam for you (either you're Garak or you're partners with ash, who is also Garak). More nulls! I liked you more in M121 where I was sure you were town from the start, now I'm just getting confused.

[MiX]

And that's l-1? Or l-2? Does it take three or four to lunch today?

It should be L-2 if the only votes are ash's and yours. And then the only other vote is mine on ash? I haven't been paying attention to votes.

[raerae]

Oh for the love of all things good and holy, I didn't think it was 1-shot.  Literally been brewing that theory since last night.  F.  Bomb.

Unvote

[MiX]

Oh for the love of all things good and holy, I didn't think it was 1-shot.  Literally been brewing that theory since last night.  F.  Bomb.

Unvote

Vobe: raerae

Vote: raerae

Vote: ash, confirmed Garak

[MiX]

Well, luckily now we know ash's scum and, thus, raerae's town. This means that, if Didds's town, there's two scum in (Snow/Space/MiX), which is pretty cool if you think about it. This play might've cracked the game.

[raerae]

Well, luckily now we know ash's scum and, thus, raerae's town. This means that, if Didds's town, there's two scum in (Snow/Space/MiX), which is pretty cool if you think about it. This play might've cracked the game.

How does me being a moron make Ash scum?

[MiX]

Well, luckily now we know ash's scum and, thus, raerae's town. This means that, if Didds's town, there's two scum in (Snow/Space/MiX), which is pretty cool if you think about it. This play might've cracked the game.

How does me being a moron make Ash scum?

Confirmed Garak, EFHW died, therefore Garak is scum. It's not guaranteed as the rest of what I said, but I believe it strenghts my case on him. I wrote a bunch of things about him before, now I'm tunnelling more than anything.

But you're right. If what I learned was that ash!raerae isn't possible, then I should be voting for

Vote: Snow

[raerae]

Well, luckily now we know ash's scum and, thus, raerae's town. This means that, if Didds's town, there's two scum in (Snow/Space/MiX), which is pretty cool if you think about it. This play might've cracked the game.

How does me being a moron make Ash scum?

Confirmed Garak, EFHW died, therefore Garak is scum. It's not guaranteed as the rest of what I said, but I believe it strenghts my case on him. I wrote a bunch of things about him before, now I'm tunnelling more than anything.

But you're right. If what I learned was that ash!raerae isn't possible, then I should be voting for

Vote: Snow

I'm going to try one more time.  Remember, I've said that I'm both a moron and the dumb kid, I'm not sure how much more I explain how I don't understand what is happening but you're really, really going to have to slow down and use little words.  EFHW dies so, yes, Garak is scum, I get that.  But WHY is Ash Garak?  I know you have a case but this is me saying it didn't register with me so if you want me on your side you've got to bring it down to a more manageable level. 

Why is Ash Garak?  And, if you're so incredibly confident of that, why are you voting for Snow?

[Glooble]

Vote Count 5.2

Dax looks over her new “senior staff”- Chief O’Brien, always overworked and now looking like death warmed over. Garak, tailor and ex-spy, untrustworthy even at the best of times. Morn and Kasidy Yates, two freighter captains, still angry about their ships being grounded and their spoiled cargo. And Kai Winn, spiritual leader of Bajor and frequent thorn in everyone’s side.

We’re Starfleet officers, she thinks. We make do with what we have. She’d been in worse situations. Well Curzon had. And Torias, but, to be fair, one of those situations had been the shuttlecraft accident that had killed him.

Best not to dwell on such things.

UmbrageOfSnow (1): MiX
MiX (1): ashersky
Not voting (4): UmbrageofSnow, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, raerae


With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players. Day 5 will end  at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Saturday, April 6th

[MiX]

Well, luckily now we know ash's scum and, thus, raerae's town. This means that, if Didds's town, there's two scum in (Snow/Space/MiX), which is pretty cool if you think about it. This play might've cracked the game.

How does me being a moron make Ash scum?

Confirmed Garak, EFHW died, therefore Garak is scum. It's not guaranteed as the rest of what I said, but I believe it strenghts my case on him. I wrote a bunch of things about him before, now I'm tunnelling more than anything.

But you're right. If what I learned was that ash!raerae isn't possible, then I should be voting for

Vote: Snow

I'm going to try one more time.  Remember, I've said that I'm both a moron and the dumb kid, I'm not sure how much more I explain how I don't understand what is happening but you're really, really going to have to slow down and use little words.  EFHW dies so, yes, Garak is scum, I get that.  But WHY is Ash Garak?  I know you have a case but this is me saying it didn't register with me so if you want me on your side you've got to bring it down to a more manageable level. 

Why is Ash Garak?  And, if you're so incredibly confident of that, why are you voting for Snow?

Space and I have claimed to not be Garak. Didds and Snow have claimed to be Dax and O'Brien. Your weird case says that you're not Garak. Thus Ash's Garak. The very same reason why you're not Garak tells me you cannot be a scumpartner with Ash (otherwise you would've known that it wasn't a one shot), which means that's not a possible scumteam. Thus, if Didds is town, then Snow and Space must be scum (Maquis and SK) because there's nowhere left to hide.

However, it could be that, even if you can't be scum with ash, you could be scum with Snow. Therefore, it makes more sense to vote for Snow, because he's scum even if it's not ash!snow. Notice how the only teams that make sense for me (if Didds' town) are ash!raerae, snow!raerae and ash!snow: by eliminating ash!raerae, the only scumteams have Snow, thus snow is scum.

Do you want me to clarify more?

I just voted for snow, by the way.

[Glooble]

I'm a fake mod so I don't have editing powers. It will be edited when the real mod returns.

Done.

[raerae]

Okay, at least I figured out why I don't buy your case.  I don't believe negative claims.  Anybody can say they aren't somebody but that doesn't make it true and it's impossible to disprove.  It's strange to me that you trust those claims.  Ash stated he was against claiming and it's my assumption that he didn't claim "Not Garak" because that is a form of claiming.  So, from my perspective, we're in the same boat as we were when nobody had claimed, or not claimed, anything.

[MiX]

Okay, at least I figured out why I don't buy your case.  I don't believe negative claims.  Anybody can say they aren't somebody but that doesn't make it true and it's impossible to disprove.  It's strange to me that you trust those claims.  Ash stated he was against claiming and it's my assumption that he didn't claim "Not Garak" because that is a form of claiming.  So, from my perspective, we're in the same boat as we were when nobody had claimed, or not claimed, anything.

Do you believe either me or Space are Garak? Oh, right, you've said this already. I suppose that's fair, but from my position I don't see SK!Garak doing what he did, which means Space can't be Garak, and obviously neither can I. This is incredibly sad, because it means only I have the information that proves Snow's scum...

Actually, hold on: you withdrew your Space!MiX theory, right? Then do you believe either me or ash is Garak?

[raerae]

Okay, at least I figured out why I don't buy your case.  I don't believe negative claims.  Anybody can say they aren't somebody but that doesn't make it true and it's impossible to disprove.  It's strange to me that you trust those claims.  Ash stated he was against claiming and it's my assumption that he didn't claim "Not Garak" because that is a form of claiming.  So, from my perspective, we're in the same boat as we were when nobody had claimed, or not claimed, anything.

Do you believe either me or Space are Garak? Oh, right, you've said this already. I suppose that's fair, but from my position I don't see SK!Garak doing what he did, which means Space can't be Garak, and obviously neither can I. This is incredibly sad, because it means only I have the information that proves Snow's scum...

Actually, hold on: you withdrew your Space!MiX theory, right? Then do you believe either me or ash is Garak?

What, exactly, did Garak do?  I'm confused by what I've bolded above.

[MiX]

Okay, at least I figured out why I don't buy your case.  I don't believe negative claims.  Anybody can say they aren't somebody but that doesn't make it true and it's impossible to disprove.  It's strange to me that you trust those claims.  Ash stated he was against claiming and it's my assumption that he didn't claim "Not Garak" because that is a form of claiming.  So, from my perspective, we're in the same boat as we were when nobody had claimed, or not claimed, anything.

Do you believe either me or Space are Garak? Oh, right, you've said this already. I suppose that's fair, but from my position I don't see SK!Garak doing what he did, which means Space can't be Garak, and obviously neither can I. This is incredibly sad, because it means only I have the information that proves Snow's scum...

Actually, hold on: you withdrew your Space!MiX theory, right? Then do you believe either me or ash is Garak?

What, exactly, did Garak do?  I'm confused by what I've bolded above.

Let EFHW live. Sorry, my mind's way ahead of what I'm writting, for me everything I'm thinking is obvious so I omit things that are public knowledge, since my brain goes "that's known, no need to say it".

[raerae]

Okay, at least I figured out why I don't buy your case.  I don't believe negative claims.  Anybody can say they aren't somebody but that doesn't make it true and it's impossible to disprove.  It's strange to me that you trust those claims.  Ash stated he was against claiming and it's my assumption that he didn't claim "Not Garak" because that is a form of claiming.  So, from my perspective, we're in the same boat as we were when nobody had claimed, or not claimed, anything.

Do you believe either me or Space are Garak? Oh, right, you've said this already. I suppose that's fair, but from my position I don't see SK!Garak doing what he did, which means Space can't be Garak, and obviously neither can I. This is incredibly sad, because it means only I have the information that proves Snow's scum...

Actually, hold on: you withdrew your Space!MiX theory, right? Then do you believe either me or ash is Garak?

What, exactly, did Garak do?  I'm confused by what I've bolded above.

Let EFHW live. Sorry, my mind's way ahead of what I'm writting, for me everything I'm thinking is obvious so I omit things that are public knowledge, since my brain goes "that's known, no need to say it".

I'm as exhausted from trying to decipher as you are from having to repeat yourself, I'm sure.  So, how does Garak presumably not saving EFHW mean Space can't be Garak.  Also, allllllllllllll of this is based on the assumption that Garak waited until yesterday to use (or not use) their power.

[MiX]

Why would SK!Garak ever, EVER, use bus drive before N4? At that point they would be worrying about SK cop, and since they know they're not going to get randomly NKd there's no need to use it. There's also no reason to not save EFHW, because that strictly helps MQ. Do you think town!Garak would've lied about not being Garak in D4? I don't believe they would, yet this is exactly what Space did. This leads to my conclusion that Space isn't Garak, because Space is either town or SK and Space being Garak doesn't make sense for either alignment. Thus, given that we know Didds/Snow/raerae aren't Garak, leads me to the conclusion that ash/MiX is Garak, obviously I'm taking the liberty to say that ash's Garak here, but no one else can deduce it...I think. Not that I really care that much.

Thus, from my perspective, ash is Garak, which means Snow is his only possible partner. Remember this only work if and only if Didds is town AND Didds is Dax, everything I'm doing is based on this. You can come to your own conclusions from your own perspective, but the latest information (you're not in a scumteam that has Garak nor you are Garak) wouldn't be new for you, so I would love to hear what others can deduce.

[raerae]

Why would SK!Garak ever, EVER, use bus drive before N4? At that point they would be worrying about SK cop, and since they know they're not going to get randomly NKd there's no need to use it. There's also no reason to not save EFHW, because that strictly helps MQ. Do you think town!Garak would've lied about not being Garak in D4? I don't believe they would, yet this is exactly what Space did. This leads to my conclusion that Space isn't Garak, because Space is either town or SK and Space being Garak doesn't make sense for either alignment. Thus, given that we know Didds/Snow/raerae aren't Garak, leads me to the conclusion that ash/MiX is Garak, obviously I'm taking the liberty to say that ash's Garak here, but no one else can deduce it...I think. Not that I really care that much.

Thus, from my perspective, ash is Garak, which means Snow is his only possible partner. Remember this only work if and only if Didds is town AND Didds is Dax, everything I'm doing is based on this. You can come to your own conclusions from your own perspective, but the latest information (you're not in a scumteam that has Garak nor you are Garak) wouldn't be new for you, so I would love to hear what others can deduce.

The bolded says Town Garak would not have lied, the italics says that's exactly what Space did, then you conclude that Space isn't Garak.  Do you understand how hard that is to follow?

Vote: MiX because why break my streak now.

[raerae]

Why would SK!Garak ever, EVER, use bus drive before N4? At that point they would be worrying about SK cop, and since they know they're not going to get randomly NKd there's no need to use it. There's also no reason to not save EFHW, because that strictly helps MQ. Do you think town!Garak would've lied about not being Garak in D4? I don't believe they would, yet this is exactly what Space did. This leads to my conclusion that Space isn't Garak, because Space is either town or SK and Space being Garak doesn't make sense for either alignment. Thus, given that we know Didds/Snow/raerae aren't Garak, leads me to the conclusion that ash/MiX is Garak, obviously I'm taking the liberty to say that ash's Garak here, but no one else can deduce it...I think. Not that I really care that much.

Thus, from my perspective, ash is Garak, which means Snow is his only possible partner. Remember this only work if and only if Didds is town AND Didds is Dax, everything I'm doing is based on this. You can come to your own conclusions from your own perspective, but the latest information (you're not in a scumteam that has Garak nor you are Garak) wouldn't be new for you, so I would love to hear what others can deduce.

The bolded says Town Garak would not have lied, the italics says that's exactly what Space did, then you conclude that Space isn't Garak.  Do you understand how hard that is to follow?

Vote: MiX because why break my streak now.

I got my bolding and italics wrong there but everything else stands.

[MiX]

I meant that Space said they weren't Garak in D4, my wording was a bit confusing in retrospect. How would I know if Space's lying, your vote doesn't even make sense. Unless it's for other reasons?

[WestCoastDidds]

MiX, thank you for slowing down and spelling things out. I’m actually following you now, which is saying something.

I am town and I am Dax, so I’ll follow vote: Snow L-2

[MiX]

MiX, thank you for slowing down and spelling things out. I’m actually following you now, which is saying something.

I am town and I am Dax, so I’ll follow vote: Snow L-2

Ah, the sweet sound of player improvement...I hope. Sure seems like it, even if my playstyle's still confusing, I feel like I learned a lot from this game.

As for your vote, I realized that my logic is only foolproof if I'm not Garak and I'm not MQ. Do you believe in both of these things? If so, why?

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 5.3

"Alright," Dax says to her "staff." "First order of business, we need to make sure there aren't anymore angry mobs running around the promenade. Kai Winn, get down there and start preaching a message of peace to the Bajoran people. Garak, try to identify the rabble rousers and arrange it so their quarters accidentally lock them in or their drinks have a little too much sedative in them or something. But no killing! Miles, make sure the forcefields in the holding cells are working. Kasidy, Morn, see if you can calm down the rest of the non-Bajoran civilians on the station. I'll have a talk with the junior Starfleet officers."

UmbrageOfSnow (2): MiX, WestCoastDidds
MiX (2): ashersky, raerae
Not voting (2): UmbrageofSnow, SpaceAnemone

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players. Day 5 will end at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Saturday, April 6th

[MiX]

UmbrageOfSnow (1): MiX, WestCoastDidds
MiX (1): ashersky, raerae

I love our mods, despite their mistakes 

[SpaceAnemone]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

I'm using it just now because wanting an opinion from another player you trust in the early game is normal, but townreading a particular player now, when town!you should be worried that three out of the other five players are scum is a whole different thing.

PPE 4

[raerae]

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

[raerae]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

I'm using it just now because wanting an opinion from another player you trust in the early game is normal, but townreading a particular player now, when town!you should be worried that three out of the other five players are scum is a whole different thing.

PPE 4

So I'm not allowed townreads?

[MiX]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

I'm using it just now because wanting an opinion from another player you trust in the early game is normal, but townreading a particular player now, when town!you should be worried that three out of the other five players are scum is a whole different thing.

Do you not have a single townread? Having even one player that you trust goes a long way, PoE is incredibly strong.

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

Eh, seems like a way to dismiss the case on him. Do you agree, disagree or are neutral to it (it being the case)?

[raerae]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

I'm using it just now because wanting an opinion from another player you trust in the early game is normal, but townreading a particular player now, when town!you should be worried that three out of the other five players are scum is a whole different thing.

Do you not have a single townread? Having even one player that you trust goes a long way, PoE is incredibly strong.

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

Eh, seems like a way to dismiss the case on him. Do you agree, disagree or are neutral to it (it being the case)?

Not dismissing it, just think it's gained steam because he's MIA and that makes me distrust it.

[jotheonah]

Has there been a formal prod request on Snow?

[MiX]

Has there been a formal prod request on Snow?

No, but I was about to do it, didn't want to sound rude...Prod: Snow. There.

[WestCoastDidds]

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

Okay, I’ll hold off until he’s back unvote but he has been my biggest Maquis candidate today and I’ve articulated that elsewhere

[SpaceAnemone]

I like MiX's case on how I'm not Garak. It's far too convoluted for me to have come up with, since I know my role and it's definitely not Garak. However, it's definitely a piece of Maquis-hunting, and almost definitely useful to town. I say "almost definitely" because I still think leaving scum as uncertain as possible about where town's PRs lie is the best course of action.

Since it's out there already, though, and since it has a bearing on scum-reading Ash, then for anyone still not following MiX's Space-isn't-Garak argument, the gist of it is that I can't be Maquis because of EFHW's claim, and everyone who isn't Maquis had a strong interest in keeping EFHW alive to get another night's-worth of Maquis-cop results. Garak did not protect EFHW, therefore Garak is probably Maquis. Since I can't be Maquis, I can't be Garak.

It seems like solid reasoning to me, though I'm a bit biased! Of course, it's possible Garak spent the bus-driving shot early on and EFHW got a result from someone other than me, but even in a Maquis!Space setting, it makes almost no sense to spend the shot that early and to spend it on me. And I emphasize that I'm actually town anyway, so there's virtually no risk of Garak having already used the shot for that.

The only ways I can see for Ash not to be Garak are:
1) MiX is Garak. Not so likely given all his Garak-hunting, but it's an outside chance.
2) Raerae is Garak. The one-shot misunderstanding would be a genius-level play, but probably also something she'd do a lot better than some of us.
3) WCD is Garak, her Maquis-buddy is actually Jadzia, and her claim a weird diversionary tactic.
4) Snow is Garak, and his Maquis-buddy is the real O'Brian. Given that his claim came out even earlier than WCD's this seems really unlikely.

I can see the logic in voting Snow here from MiX's point of view. The downside is that MiX is more or less assuming that Ash is Maquis!Garak to deduce that he (MiX) wants to vote Snow, all without testing that intermediate hypothesis. I think if we're sold on the Maquis!Garak idea at all, then the best course of action should be to flip Ash himself first, and then go after the other people that implicates second if we were right on the first hypothesis and still alive to tell the tale.

[MiX]

The only ways I can see for Ash not to be Garak are:
1) MiX is Garak. Not so likely given all his Garak-hunting, but it's an outside chance.
2) Raerae is Garak. The one-shot misunderstanding would be a genius-level play, but probably also something she'd do a lot better than some of us.
3) WCD is Garak, her Maquis-buddy is actually Jadzia, and her claim a weird diversionary tactic.
4) Snow is Garak, and his Maquis-buddy is the real O'Brian. Given that his claim came out even earlier than WCD's this seems really unlikely.

I can see the logic in voting Snow here from MiX's point of view. The downside is that MiX is more or less assuming that Ash is Maquis!Garak to deduce that he (MiX) wants to vote Snow, all without testing that intermediate hypothesis. I think if we're sold on the Maquis!Garak idea at all, then the best course of action should be to flip Ash himself first, and then go after the other people that implicates second if we were right on the first hypothesis and still alive to tell the tale.

From my PoV, 1)'s impossible, 2)'s incredibly unlikely, might have to reread raerae's previous posts, 3) links MQ together a lot and 4) links MQ too much for it to be a reasonable play IMO. So for me only 2) and 3) are possible, and I doubt 2) while also having a townread on Didds that discards 3). But they're good points.

As for my Snow case, the brilliance here is that I don't need to assume ash's MQ!Garak, just Garak: thus, if Didds is town, ash/raerae can't be a team (for the same reason raerae isn't Garak), which leads exactly two teams: ash/snow and raerae/snow, both of which implicate Snow.

[ashersky]

I find some flaws in the thinking regarding optimal Garak play being espoused here.

As for the ridiculous assumption that MiX is making, let me posit this to any player who wants to answer:

If I have every living player on the game post the words “I am not the SK” while you are sleeping, leaving only you as the one who didn’t post those words, does that mean I can safely assume you are the SK and base all my other reads and assumptions on that?

[MiX]

I find some flaws in the thinking regarding optimal Garak play being espoused here.

As for the ridiculous assumption that MiX is making, let me posit this to any player who wants to answer:

If I have every living player on the game post the words “I am not the SK” while you are sleeping, leaving only you as the one who didn’t post those words, does that mean I can safely assume you are the SK and base all my other reads and assumptions on that?

Raerae already pointed this out, but I still deduced everyone who said "I'm not Garak" is indeed not Garak (Snow/Didds have claimed, I trust myself, raerae's play implies she's not Garak and I deduced Space can't be Garak given her play). So, yes, you were right, but I strengthened my case. What do you think of it now?

[SpaceAnemone]

The only ways I can see for Ash not to be Garak are:
1) MiX is Garak. Not so likely given all his Garak-hunting, but it's an outside chance.
2) Raerae is Garak. The one-shot misunderstanding would be a genius-level play, but probably also something she'd do a lot better than some of us.
3) WCD is Garak, her Maquis-buddy is actually Jadzia, and her claim a weird diversionary tactic.
4) Snow is Garak, and his Maquis-buddy is the real O'Brian. Given that his claim came out even earlier than WCD's this seems really unlikely.

I can see the logic in voting Snow here from MiX's point of view. The downside is that MiX is more or less assuming that Ash is Maquis!Garak to deduce that he (MiX) wants to vote Snow, all without testing that intermediate hypothesis. I think if we're sold on the Maquis!Garak idea at all, then the best course of action should be to flip Ash himself first, and then go after the other people that implicates second if we were right on the first hypothesis and still alive to tell the tale.

From my PoV, 1)'s impossible, 2)'s incredibly unlikely, might have to reread raerae's previous posts, 3) links MQ together a lot and 4) links MQ too much for it to be a reasonable play IMO. So for me only 2) and 3) are possible, and I doubt 2) while also having a townread on Didds that discards 3). But they're good points.

As for my Snow case, the brilliance here is that I don't need to assume ash's MQ!Garak, just Garak: thus, if Didds is town, ash/raerae can't be a team (for the same reason raerae isn't Garak), which leads exactly two teams: ash/snow and raerae/snow, both of which implicate Snow.

So you're happy to deduce that I'm not Garak based on the fact that I'm not Maquis. At the same time you're voting Snow instead of Ash because Ash could be a non-Maquis Garak. I get that there's a significant difference in playstyle between me and Ash, but unless you're making that an explicit part of your assumption, then there's a flaw in your logic.


For anyone not wishing to follow along in that much detail, I don't necessarily think MiX is wrong, but I also want to think it through the details of case myself to be sure it's not an attempt at misdirection.

[MiX]

I like your style...my case on you being not-Garak resides on this single post:

So: Space, are you Garak?

I am not.

Which seems unecessary town lying if Space's, in fact, Garak. Ash didn't do this. I believe town!Garak would simply not answer if he wants to hide instead of lying to a direct question.

[ashersky]

Hug, town Garak would just not answer, you say.

As for your “strengthened case”, you “deduced” something, you say?

I deduce that you are scum. Are we to all agree that I am fully correct?

You can’t just “deduce” something and expect that to be a sensible thing to say. I deduce that you are scum, Raerae is Keanu Reeves, and joth is actually residing on DS9 and has great wifi. Look I deduced stuff!  Do you believe me?

[raerae]

Hug, town Garak would just not answer, you say.

As for your “strengthened case”, you “deduced” something, you say?

I deduce that you are scum. Are we to all agree that I am fully correct?

You can’t just “deduce” something and expect that to be a sensible thing to say. I deduce that you are scum, Raerae is Keanu Reeves, and joth is actually residing on DS9 and has great wifi. Look I deduced stuff!  Do you believe me?

My cover is blown but since you figured it out... We're filming a fourth Matrix movie and Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure is my biggest regret in life but not for the reasons you might think.

[raerae]

I like your style...my case on you being not-Garak resides on this single post:

So: Space, are you Garak?

I am not.

Which seems unecessary town lying if Space's, in fact, Garak. Ash didn't do this. I believe town!Garak would simply not answer if he wants to hide instead of lying to a direct question.

Also, people had already decided to lunch Garak unless he had a real convincing argument so it isn't that surprising nobody stepped up to that plate, scum or otherwise.

[jotheonah]

Replacing Snow seems pretty hopeless at this juncture, but I will be attempting it if he hasn’t responded to the prod in 35 hours, so if anyone has been reading along and is untainted by additional info please ping me. Speccy is probably ok in a pinch.

Update: We have a volunteer.

[MiX]

Hug, town Garak would just not answer, you say.

As for your “strengthened case”, you “deduced” something, you say?

I deduce that you are scum. Are we to all agree that I am fully correct?

You can’t just “deduce” something and expect that to be a sensible thing to say. I deduce that you are scum, Raerae is Keanu Reeves, and joth is actually residing on DS9 and has great wifi. Look I deduced stuff!  Do you believe me?

I've already explained why I think Space isn't Garak in detail, just read that post. If you have indeed deduced that I am scum, I would love to see your demonstration. That's the important part. If you have a counterargument against my theory of Space isn't Garak, say it: you and raerae have pointed out that I relied too much on the "not Garak" claim so I stated why town!Garak!Space wouldn't do what they did. Now what's wrong with it?

I like your style...my case on you being not-Garak resides on this single post:

So: Space, are you Garak?

I am not.

Which seems unecessary town lying if Space's, in fact, Garak. Ash didn't do this. I believe town!Garak would simply not answer if he wants to hide instead of lying to a direct question.

Also, people had already decided to lunch Garak unless he had a real convincing argument so it isn't that surprising nobody stepped up to that plate, scum or otherwise.

They could simply not answer. Saying "No" there and then is conpletely unecessary and it's excessive town lying.

But overall this case's weaker than the one I have on ash, SK!Space has no reason to keep EFHW alive and bus driving that night could kill MQ, something SK wouldn't want.

Vote: ash, thanks for helping me everyone.

[SpaceAnemone]

Awesome that we have a volunteer UoS replacement! Thank you, mystery replacement person :-)

Can we have a bit of a deadline extension to let the new player get up to speed? I'm concerned that we might hit the deadline just in time for them to have finished reading the game so far, and weekends are often not great for participation.

On a related note, it's my birthday on Monday, so I've got weeknd of food, games and other fun with friends planned, and might not be online too much...

[raerae]

If that person is coming from the speccy and has kept up I'd prefer we keep the original deadline. Obviously deferring to mod/replacement preferences. The thread has gone dormant in the last day or two and that isn't all Space being gone. If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

[MiX]

Vote: Volunteer, I reeeeeally don't want a new player to have to read again...come ooon, I basically know the MQ team, don't ruin my thing!

Seriously, this replacement is the worst thing for everyone, but mostly for himself, because now he's super confused about everything probably. I wonder who it is?

Space, about Monday...isn't deadline Sunday?

If that person is coming from the speccy and has kept up I'd prefer we keep the original deadline. Obviously deferring to mod/replacement preferences. The thread has gone dormant in the last day or two and that isn't all Space being gone. If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

I am incredibly ready to vote either ash or "snow" at any time, all the talk today was mostly me saying "we need to lynch MQ" and "these are the MQ and why", I was ready from the moment EFHW flipped.

Vote: ash

[MiX]

Before anyone gets any ideas, I'm obviously in favour of the replacement, because it's better than not (Snow would probably had to be modkilled). Also, welcome, said person, I'm willing to let you live if you say who you targetted N4. Cmon, don't lie like Snow, you don't even KNOW he lied

Also I agree that if the replacement comes from speccy we don't need a new deadline.

If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

Do you have any questions?

[raerae]

Before anyone gets any ideas, I'm obviously in favour of the replacement, because it's better than not (Snow would probably had to be modkilled). Also, welcome, said person, I'm willing to let you live if you say who you targetted N4. Cmon, don't lie like Snow, you don't even KNOW he lied

Also I agree that if the replacement comes from speccy we don't need a new deadline.

If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

Do you have any questions?

Yeah but I'm keeping them all hidden inside like I usually do...

[WestCoastDidds]

Happy almost birthday, Space!  I hope its a weekend of awesome fun and celebration.

I think it makes sense, if we get a new person, to give them time to catch up if they aren't.  So, I think it depends on who.

If we are going to vote now, I am probably going to vote for Snow, but that was my feeling before he was unable to be present much, and I don't know how much a new person would change my mind.  So, I guess another alternative is to lynch and then if its not Snow let the new person read in.

[MiX]

If we are going to vote now, I am probably going to vote for Snow, but that was my feeling before he was unable to be present much, and I don't know how much a new person would change my mind.  So, I guess another alternative is to lynch and then if its not Snow let the new person read in.

Can you sum up why you would vote for Snow, and can you say why those reasons are stronger than the reasons to vote ash? Because it seems like you were sheeping me, but it turns out I made an error in my deduction, specifically that Space can be simultaneously SK and Garak, which led me to vote ash instead.

[SpaceAnemone]

If that person is coming from the speccy and has kept up I'd prefer we keep the original deadline. Obviously deferring to mod/replacement preferences. The thread has gone dormant in the last day or two and that isn't all Space being gone. If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

I'd like our Snow replacement to have a chance to interact with us, e.g. to ask questions themself, offer a defense, and question other players. Without that, we're missing a whole other angle on this day, and I feel like it absolutely has the potential to change my mind about who I think is on what faction.

Most importantly, if Snow is town or if he's SK, then not waiting for him to be active in the game seriously hurts town, because the Maquis are unlynchable without a unanimous town-and-SK vote, since it takes four votes to lynch. So if UoS is non-Maquis, it's an almost-assured town loss without him here.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, about Monday...isn't deadline Sunday?

Yeah, but I'm saying that I'm going to be doing things before my birthday to celebrate, and was intending to have a good friend staying from Friday night till Monday afternoon, meeting up with other friends for food and cake and games. Though tonight he's messaged to say he's feeling very suddenly sick, so now his presence is all up in the air, which is very sad :-(

[WestCoastDidds]

Space, about Monday...isn't deadline Sunday?

Yeah, but I'm saying that I'm going to be doing things before my birthday to celebrate, and was intending to have a good friend staying from Friday night till Monday afternoon, meeting up with other friends for food and cake and games. Though tonight he's messaged to say he's feeling very suddenly sick, so now his presence is all up in the air, which is very sad :-(

Oh, that is very sad.  I firmly believe that birthday food and cake and games should extend as long as you can reasonably get away with them, but at the very least for a weekend.

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm not willing to vote for Snow until we've had a minute to process the new person. If that isn't happening for awhile, we should wait.

I hadn't considered that we have to have the SK with us to lynch Maquis. So, there will have to be significant convergence.

Did we finish doing the reads thing? It seems like we are still waiting for Rae and maybe Space. I remember Ash, MiX, and I providing them, did anyone else? (I know that is lazy, but on the phone, so doing what I can...)

[raerae]

Sorry, forgot that's where we were.

Ash: town
Mix: scum
Space: scum
Third scum is a bit of a mystery because of Didds' claim. On one hand, it hurts town because scum won't target her but the same rings true if she's scum so it's kind of a crappy play either way and if I know anything about crappy play it's that town makes those like they're going out of style. So that leaves Snow and I'm deeply averse to lynching lurkers so that puts me in a confused spot. Also, I absolutely know Ash could be fooling my BA but I don't think he is so I guess scum is Snow, Space, and MiX.

[WestCoastDidds]

Third scum is a bit of a mystery because of Didds' claim. On one hand, it hurts town because scum won't target her but the same rings true if she's scum so it's kind of a crappy play either way and if I know anything about crappy play it's that town makes those like they're going out of style.

Crappy play pretty much sums up my game. I have no defense. It makes me sad, but it is what it is. Life and stuff, and multiball is hard, and sometimes I suck at logic. Apologies.

[raerae]

Third scum is a bit of a mystery because of Didds' claim. On one hand, it hurts town because scum won't target her but the same rings true if she's scum so it's kind of a crappy play either way and if I know anything about crappy play it's that town makes those like they're going out of style.

Crappy play pretty much sums up my game. I have no defense. It makes me sad, but it is what it is. Life and stuff, and multiball is hard, and sometimes I suck at logic. Apologies.

Naw, that was just as much a zing at me.  How many shots are what??

[MiX]

Ash: town
Mix: scum
Space: scum

You should specify MQ and SK reads, but I guess when you townread ash you run out of people to scumread, making PoE stronger. I can't really see a universe where you and ash are town...

I'm not willing to vote for Snow until we've had a minute to process the new person. If that isn't happening for awhile, we should wait.

Then vote for ash! What do you think of him?

[ashersky]

I would support an extension for an intrepid volunteer.

On the difficulty of lynching mafia without an odd consensus, I think difficulty in lynching a player is in fact indicative of a scum alignment.

Of course, that just aligns with my current vote, so you can call it bias, but I have pointed out a few times the odd invincibility that MiX seems to hold. He’s basically the new faust.

[MiX]

On the difficulty of lynching mafia without an odd consensus, I think difficulty in lynching a player is in fact indicative of a scum alignment.

Of course, that just aligns with my current vote, so you can call it bias, but I have pointed out a few times the odd invincibility that MiX seems to hold. He’s basically the new faust.

That's because all MQ were on me: check end of D2 to see it, also remember snow had recently unvoted.

Also faust protected me, so I guess I got a little bit of his lynchproof.

[jotheonah]

ADK has replaced UmbrageOfSnow. Deadline will be extended 24 hours.

Day 5 will now end at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Sunday, April 7th

[MiX]

Hello, drunk mafia buddy! Hey, sorry for lynching ya so early, no hard feelings?

I wanna do D1 shenanigans with ADK but I also want L-1 things to happen ASAP...conflicted here. Well, at least there's stuff to do this day that aren't a matter of life and death.

Were you in Speccy?

[WestCoastDidds]

I'm not willing to vote for Snow until we've had a minute to process the new person. If that isn't happening for awhile, we should wait.

Then vote for ash! What do you think of him?

I find Ash really hard to read, but I know him to be a valuable player. This is my, I think, third game with him. He’s somewhere in a faraway different time zone (Asia, maybe?) so his posts are always first thing in the morning for me, and a result there is little real time back and forth, but he doesn’t share much beyond game stuff anyway. Without the fluff, it’s hard for me to have an image of him as a person (if he doesn’t have piercing blue eyes, I’m asking for a refund). I was frustrated with him in my last game because the mod (faust) changed the description of my role mid-game (I also misunderstood my role and called it by the wrong name so this was a perfect storm of role mistunderstanding) but he insisted that I was lying and that a mod would never do that.  I think I said he owed me a beer my QT was released. Anyway, all of that is to say he is hard for me to read and hard for me to convince, even when I’m speaking truth. I don’t find him unscummy in this game.

I don’t like lobbying campaigns. It feels off to me to be actively courted. So, part of why I am resisting voting for him is that you (MiX) are pushing him.

ADK! Welcome! I have not played a regular f.ds game with ADK, but have played a couple of drunk games with him and a couple on the beta platform (same with raerae). He is my kind of people (see drunk mafia), but I think he is also a very good player. I am looking forward to hearing from a fresh set of eyes once he reads in. ADK, I hope you’ve been following because I wouldn’t wish this 109 freaking pages of text (85 of them being MiX) on anyone.

[MiX]

I'm not willing to vote for Snow until we've had a minute to process the new person. If that isn't happening for awhile, we should wait.

Then vote for ash! What do you think of him?

I find Ash really hard to read, but I know him to be a valuable player. This is my, I think, third game with him. He’s somewhere in a faraway different time zone (Asia, maybe?) so his posts are always first thing in the morning for me, and a result there is little real time back and forth, but he doesn’t share much beyond game stuff anyway. Without the fluff, it’s hard for me to have an image of him as a person (if he doesn’t have piercing blue eyes, I’m asking for a refund). I was frustrated with him in my last game because the mod (faust) changed the description of my role mid-game (I also misunderstood my role and called it by the wrong name so this was a perfect storm of role mistunderstanding) but he insisted that I was lying and that a mod would never do that.  I think I said he owed me a beer my QT was released. Anyway, all of that is to say he is hard for me to read and hard for me to convince, even when I’m speaking truth. I don’t find him unscummy in this game.

Lot of words for "Null". I think you should make a stand here, you can't just treat him as null forever. Also...that was a looooot of fluff. Like, excessive amounts of fluff. If you had to rate ash's scumminess from 1 to 10, where 1 is yourself and 10 is "snow", what would you pick?

I don’t like lobbying campaigns. It feels off to me to be actively courted. So, part of why I am resisting voting for him is that you (MiX) are pushing him.

You (and raerae) can't be stubborn for the sake of stubborn forever...

ADK, I hope you’ve been following because I wouldn’t wish this 109 freaking pages of text (85 of them being MiX) on anyone.

Hey, I'm only responsible for like 30 pages or something; at most half, I tend to respond to everything. But yeah, if you haven't been reading...may god have mercy on your soul.

[jotheonah]

ADK was not in speccy

[MiX]

ADK was not in speccy

Blessed be ADK, for jeopardizing his sanity for our cause. Godspeed on your read, ADK!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Morning y'all!

I have been following the game somewhat, I started a detailed reread (at least as detailed as time allows) tomorrow when I volunteered, I'm about 1000 posts in, I plan on continuing that today.

If someone could get me up to speed regarding who has claimed and what, that would be lovely. And if scum wants to make add on any claims about their alignment, that would be lovely.

[MiX]

Morning y'all!

I have been following the game somewhat, I started a detailed reread (at least as detailed as time allows) tomorrow when I volunteered, I'm about 1000 posts in, I plan on continuing that today.

If someone could get me up to speed regarding who has claimed and what, that would be lovely. And if scum wants to make add on any claims about their alignment, that would be lovely.

Roles that are alive:

- O'Brien, Mirror Universe (MU) cop, Snow's claim
- Kai Winn, one shot double voter
- Dax, one shot Deathproof, Didds' claim
- Morn, Loved
- Yates, one shot commuter
- Garak, one shot bus driver/lightning rod (lot of discussion about this, me and Space have claimed Not Garak)

As for today's order of business, we're in a 3v2v1 situation with Maquis (MQ) and SK where we (at least I) have decided that the odds favour a M

[MiX]

...I guess it had to happen once this game.

As for today's order of business, we're in a 3v2v1 situation with Maquis (MQ) and SK where we (at least I) have decided that the odds favour a M

Maquis lynch, which is what we're attempting. For reads, you can read the last 5 pages, I believe those contain our updated readslists and opinions. Anything else, just ask.

Also, me and Didds are scumreading you. Good luck!

And now a trick question: who did you target with your cop N4?

[A Drowned Kernel]

...I guess it had to happen once this game.

As for today's order of business, we're in a 3v2v1 situation with Maquis (MQ) and SK where we (at least I) have decided that the odds favour a M

Maquis lynch, which is what we're attempting. For reads, you can read the last 5 pages, I believe those contain our updated readslists and opinions. Anything else, just ask.

Also, me and Didds are scumreading you. Good luck!

And now a trick question: who did you target with your cop N4?

No joke, it appears that UoS neglected to put an order in

[A Drowned Kernel]

Which is unfortunate but I don't think the worst because MU can't be in the game right? I mean if they are then I'm one town against 5 scum and pretty much hosed.

[MiX]

Which is unfortunate but I don't think the worst because MU can't be in the game right? I mean if they are then I'm one town against 5 scum and pretty much hosed.

Just wanted a reaction out of you, I guess you have access to snow's QT so it wasn't a very good trick question.

Do you want to state any early reads or something? No point in posting yet if you're rereading.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Which is unfortunate but I don't think the worst because MU can't be in the game right? I mean if they are then I'm one town against 5 scum and pretty much hosed.

Just wanted a reaction out of you, I guess you have access to snow's QT so it wasn't a very good trick question.

Do you want to state any early reads or something? No point in posting yet if you're rereading.

Based on D1 and D2 interactions I have a hard time believing that you're anyone's partner. Make of that what you will.

[raerae]

You (and raerae) can't be stubborn for the sake of stubborn forever...

Firetrucking watch me, bro.

[MiX]

You (and raerae) can't be stubborn for the sake of stubborn forever...

Firetrucking watch me, bro.

Well, this game will inevitably end, so...I'll watch. Probably from my grave...

Why are you scumreading me and Space? Okay, scratch that, why are you scumreading Space?

[raerae]

Ash: town
Mix: scum
Space: scum

You should specify MQ and SK reads, but I guess when you townread ash you run out of people to scumread, making PoE stronger. I can't really see a universe where you and ash are town...

Can't stress this enough, the bolded above is why I'm being the worst town right now.  I can't see past your demands and ain't nobody tell raerae what to do, just ask shraeye, it never works out well.  Please, please, please be more aware of the words your using to get people to (hopefully) do what you want.  A please goes a long way or even just phrasing your request as a question.  But when you TELL me to do something, there's absolutely no way in hell I'm ever going to acquiesce.

[raerae]

You (and raerae) can't be stubborn for the sake of stubborn forever...

Firetrucking watch me, bro.

Well, this game will inevitably end, so...I'll watch. Probably from my grave...

Why are you scumreading me and Space? Okay, scratch that, why are you scumreading Space?

I don't like how one of her reasons for scumreading me is that I have a townread.  I don't like that faust's townread on you is now law but I don't remember her supporting any other dead townie's reads that strongly.  I know it doesn't make sense but I don't like your (MiX+Space) interactions basically all game long.  I could go on but I'm shoveling waffles in my face right now so this is what you get.

[MiX]

Ash: town
Mix: scum
Space: scum

You should specify MQ and SK reads, but I guess when you townread ash you run out of people to scumread, making PoE stronger. I can't really see a universe where you and ash are town...

Can't stress this enough, the bolded above is why I'm being the worst town right now.  I can't see past your demands and ain't nobody tell raerae what to do, just ask shraeye, it never works out well.  Please, please, please be more aware of the words your using to get people to (hopefully) do what you want.  A please goes a long way or even just phrasing your request as a question.  But when you TELL me to do something, there's absolutely no way in hell I'm ever going to acquiesce.

"Please, for town, could you specify your scumreads? Mainly, who you think is MQ and who is SK?" There. I don't think I was too bossy before, but I guess I was?

You (and raerae) can't be stubborn for the sake of stubborn forever...

Firetrucking watch me, bro.

Well, this game will inevitably end, so...I'll watch. Probably from my grave...

Why are you scumreading me and Space? Okay, scratch that, why are you scumreading Space?

I don't like how one of her reasons for scumreading me is that I have a townread.  I don't like that faust's townread on you is now law but I don't remember her supporting any other dead townie's reads that strongly.  I know it doesn't make sense but I don't like your (MiX+Space) interactions basically all game long.  I could go on but I'm shoveling waffles in my face right now so this is what you get.

Do you think we're MQ?

[raerae]

I don't think it benefits town to know what I think you are.  I think scum benefits quite a bit actually.  So I'll just keep that secret for now.

And it's been all game that you've been making those sorts of demands so just take my advice and consider it moving forward. 

[MiX]

I don't think it benefits town to know what I think you are.  I think scum benefits quite a bit actually.  So I'll just keep that secret for now.

And it's been all game that you've been making those sorts of demands so just take my advice and consider it moving forward. 

It's obvious that you think I'm MQ, given that you're voting for me, and Space can't be MQ, so you must read them as SK. Not fishing for any information that I don't know...but I think you would know that. So, why didn't you answer it?

[raerae]

It's in my head so I have to get it out...

We're all sitting here looking for "traditional" partner interactions and coming up blank.  Maybe ADK will have better luck since he hasn't been in the mire the whole time but it doesn't seem like it's helping the rest of us.  I don't have a question, or even a conclusion with this, it's just an observation and it's kind of eating at me right now.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So this is a very different game than the blitz games I've been playing lately, but I find myself in the oddly familiar position of trying to sort a small number of town players from a larger group of scum.

1. MiX-

   MiX seems to have a very confrontational playstyle, and seems to tunnel quite strongly, which I think are towny traits, but fakeable by talented scum. Based on the interactions he's had throughout the game, and the way that he's played today, I certainly don't see the possibility that he's anyone's partner on a scumteam.

2. Ash-

   If there's one thing that I know about ash, it's that cranky, disengaged ash is town!ash, and that him not wanting to divulge information about his role is very much in character for him. I also know that he would know to do the same thing as scum. I would believe an ash/didds team, but I don't think there's any other ash team that's plausible.

3. Space-

   Confirmed not Marquis (barring bus driving shenanigans that aren't actually plausible), so not someone we should consider lynching today, if I undestand all the math correctly.

4. WCD-

   WCD is always difficult for me to read, but I do know that she is adept at emulating her town meta as scum. My scumread of her is largely PoE, but I do find the claim here suspect- the way I see it, there's actually a lot of utility for scum to claim here, because it diverts the lynch away from you, and a mislynch here puts the marquis in a strong position. Of all the possible partner combinations, her and raerae and her and ash make the most sense to me.

5. raerae-

   Her tunneling of MiX all game, up through today, reads as somewhat fake to me. MiX has been a controversial player who nonetheless has had enough people defending him that his lynch was never really viable; I think that continuing to push it is a good cover story for scum, as it lets them look active without having to get their hands dirty in mislynches, and then at LyLo they can come out with "I've been pushing this all game, lets's make it happen". I'm not sure if this is within raerae's scum meta, but it smells fishy to me.

The problem with the scum!didds scenario is that with her power (I'm assuming she's telling the truth about that) we have to decide between wasting a lynch on her or trying to hit her partner. I have thoughts about who might be the SK but I think it's best not to voice them.

tl;dr: MiX is a bad lynch today, I would vote didds or ash or raerae.

[raerae]

So do you feel comfortable moving forward with no deadline extension or would you like one? No pressure, I just have to go to work soon and am curious if I need to check in before I get off tonight.

[MiX]

That is a really good readslist, and it's definitely what I expected from a player in snow's position that doesn't scumread me. Unfortunately, I don't think Didds is scum. Her PR also means that we should try to go for her partner today...for reasons I'm not disclosing. Good points about raerae, however, unlike ADK, I think my lynch was very much on the table D2 and maybe D3, so raerae's actions were not without risk. Not a lot about ash, sadly, he's definitely an intriguing player to read, one thing that confused me was...why is ash/didds the only ash team? What about ash/raerae? Overall...ADK seems either town or scumbuddies with ash...not sure, too early. I think I'll stick with my scumread for now, his ash point was...somewhat null...

ADK, if you had to pick between ash and raerae, who would you pick? Also, why is ash/raerae not a plausible team?

So do you feel comfortable moving forward with no deadline extension or would you like one? No pressure, I just have to go to work soon and am curious if I need to check in before I get off tonight.

We already got a deadline extention...but still a good question.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That is a really good readslist, and it's definitely what I expected from a player in snow's position that doesn't scumread me. Unfortunately, I don't think Didds is scum. Her PR also means that we should try to go for her partner today...for reasons I'm not disclosing. Good points about raerae, however, unlike ADK, I think my lynch was very much on the table D2 and maybe D3, so raerae's actions were not without risk. Not a lot about ash, sadly, he's definitely an intriguing player to read, one thing that confused me was...why is ash/didds the only ash team? What about ash/raerae? Overall...ADK seems either town or scumbuddies with ash...not sure, too early. I think I'll stick with my scumread for now, his ash point was...somewhat null...

ADK, if you had to pick between ash and raerae, who would you pick? Also, why is ash/raerae not a plausible team?

So do you feel comfortable moving forward with no deadline extension or would you like one? No pressure, I just have to go to work soon and am curious if I need to check in before I get off tonight.

We already got a deadline extention...but still a good question.

I considered ash/raerae but raerae's confusion over the Garak role earlier pretty much kills that. The two of them have also been expressing relatively strong townreads on one another for awhile now, which I think at this point is more likely to mean one of them is scum buddying the other than two scumpartners.

I'm kind of sick of reading mafia stuff for today, so I appreciate a deadline extension, I will try and sort raerae and ash, right now I think leaning raerae?

[raerae]

@Everybody who isn't ADK (and I guess MiX since he beat me to the punch), how do you feel about ADK's reads?  Does it change your view of Snow/ADK?  Why?

Sorry about the deadline question, I missed joth's note on that. 

[WestCoastDidds]

I don’t really see him saying much. There’s a mess of words, but the content is hedgy.

I’m also super suspicious of him letting MiX off the hook and his reads of me (and me and Ash, what?!?) I know are wrong.

At the end of the day, I think I’m finding ADK as scummy as Snow was. I need to dwell a bit longer, but it wasn’t the fresh eyes read I was hoping for. Le sigh...

I’m on a plane now and for the next few hours so I’m out until tomorrow.

Happy birthday weekend, Space!

[SpaceAnemone]

I’m on a plane now and for the next few hours so I’m out until tomorrow.

Happy birthday weekend, Space!

Thank you! Safe flying :-)

[SpaceAnemone]

I guess ADK's reads don't change much. They're reminded me a bit that WCD as SK makes more sense than I want to think about, given how bad that could be for town.

I think that the remaining Maquis pair is most likely to be ADK-Ash. Looking back over the wagons, raerae-Ash isn't looking plausible enough for too many very small reasons. I do agree with ADK that MiX isn't looking like he's paired with anyone.

I have a preference for Ash being the lunch over ADK, because ADK has a claimed PR that's not harmful to town, while Ash is still technically a mystery and therefore potentially a bigger threat.
Vote: Ash

[raerae]

If it's between Ash and ADK then ADK is my preference.

Vote: ADK

[ashersky]

Man, so happy to have an ADK in the game. Been awhile man.

Also, DAMA.

MiX+Dodd’s scum team and SA SK do sho by dubs.

[ashersky]

Also, poopy on Fausto reads. Never right when he lives too long. Only flaw in that dude’s game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Man, so happy to have an ADK in the game. Been awhile man.

Also, DAMA.

MiX+Dodd’s scum team and SA SK do sho by dubs.

I'm glad to be back.

Ash what is your opinion on raerae? Why are you townreading her?

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m worried about my availability today/tomorrow so I’ll put this here, just in case:

Vote: Ashersky

 
I’m also willing to vote ADK

DAMA is my favorite! Ashers typos are charming, but finding me scummy is definitely the drunk talking

[raerae]

Man, so happy to have an ADK in the game. Been awhile man.

Also, DAMA.

MiX+Dodd’s scum team and SA SK do sho by dubs.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT DAMA MEANT AND I'M SO EXCITED!

[raerae]

Ash, when did your scumread on me change to a townread? What are you drinking?

[raerae]

I’m worried about my availability today/tomorrow so I’ll put this here, just in case:

Vote: Ashersky

 
I’m also willing to vote ADK

DAMA is my favorite! Ashers typos are charming, but finding me scummy is definitely the drunk talking

Is that L-1?

[WestCoastDidds]

Is it? I thought it was L-2. Apologies if not. I’m at a college visit and not fully engaged.

Vote count please

[WestCoastDidds]

It was L-1.

WCD count:
Ash (3) MIX, Spacee, WCD
ADK (1) raerae

Not voting: Ash, ADK

[WestCoastDidds]

But someone should check my work because that was on the fly.

[raerae]

But someone should check my work because that was on the fly.

That's right.

[ashersky]

My townread on Rae is 100% based on her townreading me, tbh. Also, I don’t know if town!rae tunnels MiX at all. My longstanding Rae opinion is that Bankers means I have to always lynch her forever, to be honest.


My Dodd’s scumread is POE mostly, since I decided to town read Rae.

After MiX and SA, anyone if air game but me. Cause I’m tony. Also, no one took my bait on my opinion of how Gael’s should actually use poets.  That’s poops.

[ashersky]

Also, don’t lynch me, not cool and we lose so not cool.

[raerae]

My townread on Rae is 100% based on her townreading me, tbh. Also, I don’t know if town!rae tunnels MiX at all. My longstanding Rae opinion is that Bankers means I have to always lynch her forever, to be honest.


My Dodd’s scumread is POE mostly, since I decided to town read Rae.

After MiX and SA, anyone if air game but me. Cause I’m tony. Also, no one took my bait on my opinion of how Gael’s should actually use poets.  That’s poops.

Are you voting for MiX?  Would you like to join me on ADK?

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 5.4

Walking down the promenade, Miles OBrien is surprised to see Bajoran workmen installing a new sign in front of Quark’s. He wanders in to check it out and is surprised to see a tall, shapely Bajoran behind the bar.

“Good morning chief. Welcome to Leeta’s,” she says. “It turns out that Quark left the bar to Rom, and I’m Rom’s Next of kin.”

“You didn’t want to keep the old name?”

“Nah, this going to be a new kind of a place. By the way. If you know any strapping young men on the hunt for a job, send them my way. I’m looking to hire some Dabo Boys.”


MiX (1): ashersky
Ashersky (3): MiX, SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds
ADK (1): raerae
Not voting (1): ADK

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players. Day 5 will end at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Sunday, April 7th

[ashersky]

Not voting MiC seems offbramx for you.

I put adk 4th on my list.

[ashersky]

Plus I new. To an oculus. Before a lynch.  Ye

[raerae]

Not voting MiC seems offbramx for you.

I put adk 4th on my list.

If it's between you and ADK if prefer ADK. Nobody but you and I seem down with MiX. Didds seems on the fence about it but if she'll move to MiX I'll come back. I'm not voting for you today though.

[MiX]

I just want to say, if this is L-1 ash then we should've done this a loooong time ago. That said, if he cannot see any non-me teams, then he cannot be town in my eyes.

That should be 5.4? It should.

[raerae]

I just want to say, if this is L-1 ash then we should've done this a loooong time ago. That said, if he cannot see any non-me teams, then he cannot be town in my eyes.

That should be 5.4?

I'm sorry, how does drunk Ash equate to should have lynched a long time ago? Didds just put him at L-1 and this post makes it seem like he's committed some enormous foul.

[MiX]

I just want to say, if this is L-1 ash then we should've done this a loooong time ago. That said, if he cannot see any non-me teams, then he cannot be town in my eyes.

That should be 5.4?

I'm sorry, how does drunk Ash equate to should have lynched a long time ago? Didds just put him at L-1 and this post makes it seem like he's committed some enormous foul.

I'm joking, just love drunk ash and his shenanigans. I have no idea what he means by any of it but I wish he did this more because it's funny. And I meant we should've put him at L-1, but I guess he was drunk before that? I don't have more to add about his L-1 situation, we should've done it earlier despite his drunkness to start the L-1 claim action as early as possible, but meh, we have enough time to deal with it.

I feel like I'm getting less and less serious as the day passes and I have a feeling this is because my wagon died. In a way, I guess I like to defend myself...

[WestCoastDidds]

Not voting MiC seems offbramx for you.

I put adk 4th on my list.

If it's between you and ADK if prefer ADK. Nobody but you and I seem down with MiX. Didds seems on the fence about it but if she'll move to MiX I'll come back. I'm not voting for you today though.

I think MiX is SK. ADK seems like MQ, but Space made a good point about his role is less powerful than Ash.

[ashersky]

WCD: I’d like to convince you that MiX is not SK.  Of that I am sure, but I’d rather not say why.

I’m reticent to claim, but I will own up to not being Garak this entire time. I’m 100% convinced MiX has to be mafia!Garak, considering his laser focus on ensuring he blames someone else for his actions.

[MiX]

WCD: I’d like to convince you that MiX is not SK.  Of that I am sure, but I’d rather not say why.

I’m reticent to claim, but I will own up to not being Garak this entire time. I’m 100% convinced MiX has to be mafia!Garak, considering his laser focus on ensuring he blames someone else for his actions.

Hmm. Are you convinced, beyond a shadow of doubt, that either me or yourself are mafia!Garak? Because I am, so it makes sense that you would be too.

[WestCoastDidds]

Deadline is at 9 PM forum time? We less than 14 hours, folks.

Vote: ADK

Ashersky, I’m willing to believe you for the time being. Is MiX a better vote than ADK?

I really don’t want to lose, so I need the other two town (and maybe the SK) to help me figure it out and lynch freaking Maquis. I know I haven’t been playing well and have been busy so it feels urgent all of the sudden.

[WestCoastDidds]

Joth, can you please update the vote count with the new deadline. Thank you!!

[MiX]

Deadline is at 9 PM forum time? We less than 14 hours, folks.

Vote: ADK

Ashersky, I’m willing to believe you for the time being. Is MiX a better vote than ADK?

I really don’t want to lose, so I need the other two town (and maybe the SK) to help me figure it out and lynch freaking Maquis. I know I haven’t been playing well and have been busy so it feels urgent all of the sudden.

L-2 or L-1? I'll hammer ADK, just want to see where we are.

[MiX]

L-2 or L-1? I'll hammer ADK, just want to see where we are.

I should've taken the 5 seconds to look it up instead of asking...

I'll use this post to say both ash and ADK are at L-2.

[MiX]

Sorry for a bunch of low quality posts in quick succession, I got too alarmed by Didds saying we're close to deadline, I had forgotten about it and panicked too much.

Ashersky, I’m willing to believe you for the time being. Is MiX a better vote than ADK?

Why do you believe your scumread? He simply said what he thinks, no proof, no line of thinking, no quotes to confirm it...so, why did you unvote him based on something he said?

[WestCoastDidds]

He is using declarative sentences that speak well to my current sense of confusion at an opportune time. In my (albeit limited) experience with Ash, he has never spoken to me directly or asked that I reconsider any particular conclusion. So, I’m interested in what else he has to say.

I haven’t followed him to you, yet, so I wouldn’t say that I trust him completely, but I’m interested enough to move to my bigger scum read for awhile to see what others have to say.

[MiX]

He is using declarative sentences that speak well to my current sense of confusion at an opportune time. In my (albeit limited) experience with Ash, he has never spoken to me directly or asked that I reconsider any particular conclusion. So, I’m interested in what else he has to say.

I haven’t followed him to you, yet, so I wouldn’t say that I trust him completely, but I’m interested enough to move to my bigger scum read for awhile to see what others have to say.

In any other situation I would say "Well, have you ever played with scum!ash?" but I'm also interested to hear what he has to say. Ah, right, you scumread ADK more than ash, forgot.

[SpaceAnemone]

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players. Day 5 will end at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Saturday, April 6th

Just realised that this deadline makes no sense whatsoever, because the "13:00 GMT" is a total mistranslation! Assuming "ET" is the same as forum time, then the deadline is 01:00 GMT the next day, or 2am UK/Portugal time.

Anyway, I'm off work tomorrow, so should be around at deadline. I still think Ash is scum, and would be willing to lynch him or ADK. The number of people who sound like they're willing to lynch ADK is suspiciously high, though.. I feel like the fact we're not getting consensus on Ash makes it more likely that he's Maquis.

[ashersky]

If you (WCD, but really, anyone) believe that EFHW’s death is highly indicative of Garak being mafia, then yes, MiX is a better lynch than ADK, because he has a higher chance of being scum.

I can admit that my read of UoS was biased by prior experience and disappearance, and that entirely non-game related stuff sort of threw me off. Obviously, ADK hasn’t been scummy in his minimal time with us, and I kind of want a chance to see what he does from here on out.

So, that’s my thinking there. I can honestly say don’t think I am optimizing game-wise when it comes to figuring out UpS/ADK, but even if they are scum, there are two more in four for each town player to find. For me, MiX is one of those two.

[MiX]

If you (WCD, but really, anyone) believe that EFHW’s death is highly indicative of Garak being mafia, then yes, MiX is a better lynch than ADK, because he has a higher chance of being scum.

Why would I agressively hunt for Garak D4 if I'm Garak? What would I accomplish? What do you think happened for me to do such a thing?

[ashersky]

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players. Day 5 will end at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Saturday, April 6th

Just realised that this deadline makes no sense whatsoever, because the "13:00 GMT" is a total mistranslation! Assuming "ET" is the same as forum time, then the deadline is 01:00 GMT the next day, or 2am UK/Portugal time.

Anyway, I'm off work tomorrow, so should be around at deadline. I still think Ash is scum, and would be willing to lynch him or ADK. The number of people who sound like they're willing to lynch ADK is suspiciously high, though.. I feel like the fact we're not getting consensus on Ash makes it more likely that he's Maquis.

SA, you realize your last point there does and should have applied to MiX for the past three game days?  It just sounds like you are cherry picking easy, slick sounding points to push through a bad lynch, which is particularly scummy, given a mislynch OR SK lynch means a very high likelihood of a town loss.

[ashersky]

If you (WCD, but really, anyone) believe that EFHW’s death is highly indicative of Garak being mafia, then yes, MiX is a better lynch than ADK, because he has a higher chance of being scum.

Why would I agressively hunt for Garak D4 if I'm Garak? What would I accomplish? What do you think happened for me to do such a thing?

It’s exactly what I would have done at your f.ds mafia age.

[ashersky]

Does the day end in 12 hours or so?

Am I going to have to claim to ensure the right lynch goes through?

[MiX]

If you (WCD, but really, anyone) believe that EFHW’s death is highly indicative of Garak being mafia, then yes, MiX is a better lynch than ADK, because he has a higher chance of being scum.

Why would I agressively hunt for Garak D4 if I'm Garak? What would I accomplish? What do you think happened for me to do such a thing?

It’s exactly what I would have done at your f.ds mafia age.

Fair enough.

Does the day end in 12 hours or so?

Am I going to have to claim to ensure the right lynch goes through?

If you aren't Loved I have no idea what your claim does that helps town. Unless you want to explain your Garak actions?

[ashersky]

Who’s voting for me now?  SA and MiX?

[MiX]

Who’s voting for me now?  SA and MiX?

Yes.

I'm so used to shorter mafia that I love to do short posts like this, yet I desperately try not to; maybe I should do these more.

[ashersky]

I’ve got to do something now, but if someone else unvotes in the next hour or so, I will claim enough information to ensure the right lynch happens for town today.

[MiX]

Unvote: ash

As much as I know he's scum, I really want to see what he has cooked up to prove his innocence.

[A Drowned Kernel]

WCD: I’d like to convince you that MiX is not SK.  Of that I am sure, but I’d rather not say why.

I’m reticent to claim, but I will own up to not being Garak this entire time. I’m 100% convinced MiX has to be mafia!Garak, considering his laser focus on ensuring he blames someone else for his actions.

Oh boy, that changes a lot. Uh, I do not have a lot of time today to go back and reread all the ash and mix interactions to see if this is plausible.

[raerae]

If you (WCD, but really, anyone) believe that EFHW’s death is highly indicative of Garak being mafia, then yes, MiX is a better lynch than ADK, because he has a higher chance of being scum.

Why would I agressively hunt for Garak D4 if I'm Garak? What would I accomplish? What do you think happened for me to do such a thing?

It’s exactly what I would have done at your f.ds mafia age.

Seconded.

[ashersky]

Okay, time is of the essence here, so here goes.

I'm Garak.  I bus-drove faust and UoS on N3.  That makes for some funny reviews in retrospect.


























j/k.  Not Garak.  MiX is still Garak (I believe), and is definitely still mafia.

I'm the SK.  And I'm Yates.

I basically softclaimed this earlier in the day.  So, here's the thing.  Lynch me now, lose to mafia.  I mean, WCD claimed and won't be shot.  I'm the Commuter, so they're guaranteed to kill town tonight and endgame town at 2-2.  Even the Loved player doesn't help, since town can't lynch scum, scum can just wait out the day and kill again.

So town's best (and only) option now is to keep me alive and lynch me at LYLO.  You know that's safe because WCD claimed so I am not lynchproof.

Won't scum kill me?  No, I can guarantee I'll be around tomorrow with my night survival skills.  And I can shoot the other scum and perhaps speed up the game.  Or I can shoot WCD to remove the protective layer, in case we're worried there.  (Oh, fyi -- Jimmmm, shraeye, Dat, faust.)

In case it isn't obvious, no one else should claim anything.





Then the big question.  Why'd I claim?  Well, I'd say I am the default lynch otherwise anyway, for one.  Also, I decided that if I was going to kingmake, I would do it for town in what was otherwise a fairly scum-leaning game.  I think I am overpowered in this setup depending on the power I get, anyway.

So, you know I'm scum for sure (sorry raerae).  Help me lynch the other scum team and then lynch me.  What do you think?

[ashersky]

Something else for all to consider, however you feel. Look carefully at who reacts in what way; who want to lynch who, and risk what.  The key to winning lies there (and in not lynching me).

[raerae]

This game is my Bankers now.

[A Drowned Kernel]

lolwut

[MiX]

This game is my Bankers now.

What's Bankers? What is that claim? I...no...he's lying. No Freaking way SK is Yates, absolutely not.

Vote: ash

[raerae]

This game is my Bankers now.

What's Bankers? What is that claim? I...no...he's lying. No Freaking way SK is Yates, absolutely not.

Vote: ash

So we're not lynching Maquis then?

[ashersky]

I think you are playing this wrong, MiX.

Lynch me and lose, even if I’m wrong about you.  Lynch literally anyone else and you still have a chance.

[ashersky]

This game is my Bankers now.

What's Bankers? What is that claim? I...no...he's lying. No Freaking way SK is Yates, absolutely not.

Vote: ash

So we're not lynching Maquis then?

Remind him and others how they came at you for wanting to lynch SK first.

[raerae]

This game is my Bankers now.

What's Bankers? What is that claim? I...no...he's lying. No Freaking way SK is Yates, absolutely not.

Vote: ash

And are you saying you "know" he's lying or was that written as though you were stammering with disbelief. Just want to make sure I'm reading you correctly.

[ashersky]

If Mafia have double voter, they win here with me at L-2.  That’s why I wanted an unvote. I’m sure MiX knew that already.

[MiX]

If SK is Yates we already lost. That's all. I can say why in a bit, but this is clearly a scum gambit.

[raerae]

If SK is Yates we already lost. That's all. I can say why in a bit, but this is clearly a scum gambit.

Forget waiting, we're already screwed, being mysterious isn't helping anybody. And if you're town unvote for crying out loud. We already already we aren't killing the SK today.

[WestCoastDidds]

Ash, who is MQ?

[MiX]

If SK is Yates we already lost. That's all. I can say why in a bit, but this is clearly a scum gambit.

Forget waiting, we're already screwed, being mysterious isn't helping anybody. And if you're town unvote for crying out loud. We already already we aren't killing the SK today.

He is obviously lying, and if he's not then we already lost. I'm not believing SK!Yates for one second, just look how he said:

Won't scum kill me?  No, I can guarantee I'll be around tomorrow with my night survival skills.

Completely forgetting about SK being bulletproof. This is, quite literally, a MQ confession, a gambit because he knows he's the lynch. Don't believe ash just because he claimed scum, that's exactly what MQ would do in his position.

[raerae]

If SK is Yates we already lost. That's all. I can say why in a bit, but this is clearly a scum gambit.

Forget waiting, we're already screwed, being mysterious isn't helping anybody. And if you're town unvote for crying out loud. We already already we aren't killing the SK today.

He is obviously lying, and if he's not then we already lost. I'm not believing SK!Yates for one second, just look how he said:

Won't scum kill me?  No, I can guarantee I'll be around tomorrow with my night survival skills.

Completely forgetting about SK being bulletproof. This is, quite literally, a MQ confession, a gambit because he knows he's the lynch. Don't believe ash just because he claimed scum, that's exactly what MQ would do in his position.

Just saying something is obvious doesn't make it obvious, for the record. I don't understand why he couldn't be Yates, joth randomized the roles, seems plausible. Unless your big secret is that you're Yates I don't see a compelling reason to disbelieve him.

[MiX]

If SK is Yates we already lost. That's all. I can say why in a bit, but this is clearly a scum gambit.

Forget waiting, we're already screwed, being mysterious isn't helping anybody. And if you're town unvote for crying out loud. We already already we aren't killing the SK today.

He is obviously lying, and if he's not then we already lost. I'm not believing SK!Yates for one second, just look how he said:

Won't scum kill me?  No, I can guarantee I'll be around tomorrow with my night survival skills.

Completely forgetting about SK being bulletproof. This is, quite literally, a MQ confession, a gambit because he knows he's the lynch. Don't believe ash just because he claimed scum, that's exactly what MQ would do in his position.

Just saying something is obvious doesn't make it obvious, for the record. I don't understand why he couldn't be Yates, joth randomized the roles, seems plausible. Unless your big secret is that you're Yates I don't see a compelling reason to disbelieve him.

Did you see why I think he's not SK? I have no idea who Yates is, but he's not SK, which means he's lying, which means he's MQ. He could still be Yates, but this gambit only comes from Garak!ash, so at least someone in MQ is Garak, probably himself.

[raerae]

Nope, I don't understand why you don't believe him. You're original argument seemed to center on the SK not being Yates and when I pointed out it's possible you just removed that from your argument and doubled down on him not being SK. So, which is it? And why?

[MiX]

Nope, I don't understand why you don't believe him. You're original argument seemed to center on the SK not being Yates and when I pointed out it's possible you just removed that from your argument and doubled down on him not being SK. So, which is it? And why?

Well, hmm, yeah, you're right, I was confusing there, mostly because I went back and forth on what guarantees ash's MQ. Okay, I'll explain.

If ash is SK!Yates, we already lost, so we can just remove that from the realm of possibilites. But he could still be SK, right? Well, the quote I mentioned has him forgetting that he's bulletproof, therefore he's not SK, which means he's MQ.

Confusing? Yeah. But I see no reason to think ash's SK instead of MQ here anyway, so that single quote's enough to continue my vote on him.

[raerae]

Nope, I don't understand why you don't believe him. You're original argument seemed to center on the SK not being Yates and when I pointed out it's possible you just removed that from your argument and doubled down on him not being SK. So, which is it? And why?

Well, hmm, yeah, you're right, I was confusing there, mostly because I went back and forth on what guarantees ash's MQ. Okay, I'll explain.

If ash is SK!Yates, we already lost, so we can just remove that from the realm of possibilites. But he could still be SK, right? Well, the quote I mentioned has him forgetting that he's bulletproof, therefore he's not SK, which means he's MQ.

Confusing? Yeah. But I see no reason to think ash's SK instead of MQ here anyway, so that single quote's enough to continue my vote on him.

There's no reason we lose with SK Yates, if anything the SK power more or less negate a one shot commute. Why do you think it's so powerful? And that quote seems like exactly what it is, SK can't be NK'd. Once again, I don't understand your argument. This is getting old.

[SpaceAnemone]

I think MiX has a point. In Ash's claim, he specifically asked us whether scum wouldn't just kill him because he's trying to get town to buy into the idea that he might consider kingmaking on the side of town.

More specifically, he referred to his "nighttime survival skills" as the reason why the Maquis wouldn't kill him in the night. That appears to be referring to Yates's ability as a commuter, whereas the SK should just know that they can never be killed at night because of the bulletproof. It's now possible that Ash will sidestep it by insisting that he meant the SK's nighttime survival skills, but it's also possible that if he's actually Maquis, he's trying to warn the SK off targeting him.

[raerae]

I think MiX has a point. In Ash's claim, he specifically asked us whether scum wouldn't just kill him because he's trying to get town to buy into the idea that he might consider kingmaking on the side of town.

More specifically, he referred to his "nighttime survival skills" as the reason why the Maquis wouldn't kill him in the night. That appears to be referring to Yates's ability as a commuter, whereas the SK should just know that they can never be killed at night because of the bulletproof. It's now possible that Ash will sidestep it by insisting that he meant the SK's nighttime survival skills, but it's also possible that if he's actually Maquis, he's trying to warn the SK off targeting him.

Didds does English, how did you interpret that, Professor?

[MiX]

Nope, I don't understand why you don't believe him. You're original argument seemed to center on the SK not being Yates and when I pointed out it's possible you just removed that from your argument and doubled down on him not being SK. So, which is it? And why?

Well, hmm, yeah, you're right, I was confusing there, mostly because I went back and forth on what guarantees ash's MQ. Okay, I'll explain.

If ash is SK!Yates, we already lost, so we can just remove that from the realm of possibilites. But he could still be SK, right? Well, the quote I mentioned has him forgetting that he's bulletproof, therefore he's not SK, which means he's MQ.

Confusing? Yeah. But I see no reason to think ash's SK instead of MQ here anyway, so that single quote's enough to continue my vote on him.

There's no reason we lose with SK Yates, if anything the SK power more or less negate a one shot commute. Why do you think it's so powerful? And that quote seems like exactly what it is, SK can't be NK'd. Once again, I don't understand your argument. This is getting old.

My argument for why ash isn't SK is essencially that quote plus his thinking that I'm MQ, which is obviously wrong. That and I don't see why the claim would come from SK more than MQ.

For why SK!Yates means a town loss, well, it all depends on Didds. If Didds is town, is Dax, and scum believe her, then town loses. The reason? Well, assuming we lynch MQ, N5 SK NKs (ha, that's a good letter combo) town, we wake up 2v1v1, no matter who we lynch, then N6 scum NKs the non-Didds: since that person isn't Yates, they die, so we lose. This is simply if Yates isn't town, being SK doesn't change anything. There's also the fact that Didds could clearly be lying about role or alignment, in which case we have higher chances of winning, however there's a way for scum to bypass it. I'm not saying what it is because it requires extreme coordination between both scum and full cooperation, which means there's a way they get it wrong (there's also a way they accidentally get it right). There's also the chance that Didds doublebluffs, makes scum believe she's not Dax, shoots her, and then she's Dax. MVP if that happens, would be hilarious, but again, scum can bypass that with weird coordination. All in all, Yates must be town for town to enter LyLo, that is, to win (I'm assuming LyLo is a win otherwise I would get too demoralized).

I think MiX has a point. In Ash's claim, he specifically asked us whether scum wouldn't just kill him because he's trying to get town to buy into the idea that he might consider kingmaking on the side of town.

More specifically, he referred to his "nighttime survival skills" as the reason why the Maquis wouldn't kill him in the night. That appears to be referring to Yates's ability as a commuter, whereas the SK should just know that they can never be killed at night because of the bulletproof. It's now possible that Ash will sidestep it by insisting that he meant the SK's nighttime survival skills, but it's also possible that if he's actually Maquis, he's trying to warn the SK off targeting him.

If he's MQ, SK knows that already, due to his claim. Otherwise, yes, yes, that's exactly my point, I love you Space. Also, Happy Birthday! In case the day ends earlier than expected and I don't get to say it.

[raerae]

I think MiX has a point. In Ash's claim, he specifically asked us whether scum wouldn't just kill him because he's trying to get town to buy into the idea that he might consider kingmaking on the side of town.

More specifically, he referred to his "nighttime survival skills" as the reason why the Maquis wouldn't kill him in the night. That appears to be referring to Yates's ability as a commuter, whereas the SK should just know that they can never be killed at night because of the bulletproof. It's now possible that Ash will sidestep it by insisting that he meant the SK's nighttime survival skills, but it's also possible that if he's actually Maquis, he's trying to warn the SK off targeting him.

Why does it refer more to the commuter night actions than SK?

[MiX]

I think MiX has a point. In Ash's claim, he specifically asked us whether scum wouldn't just kill him because he's trying to get town to buy into the idea that he might consider kingmaking on the side of town.

More specifically, he referred to his "nighttime survival skills" as the reason why the Maquis wouldn't kill him in the night. That appears to be referring to Yates's ability as a commuter, whereas the SK should just know that they can never be killed at night because of the bulletproof. It's now possible that Ash will sidestep it by insisting that he meant the SK's nighttime survival skills, but it's also possible that if he's actually Maquis, he's trying to warn the SK off targeting him.

Why does it refer more to the commuter night actions than SK?

Because it refers to both. A SK that has Yates looks at it and sees "sweet, cop protection", not one-shot bulletproof, yet when he said "nighttime survival skillS" (notice the "S"), he's counting both. This is because he's MQ, and as MQ he doesn't want to get NKd (his teammate already got NKd so he knows it can happen), which means he looks at the ability and sees, well, one-shot bulletproof, like town. But that functionality makes no sense as full-bulletproof SK. Thus, he's not SK.

There's also the fact that there's no reason to assume SK made this claim instead of MQ. Really, what makes him more SK than any other player right now? We know he's scum, but what else? I think MQ would absolutely claim SK here and pull the same gambit he is doing and I don't see why SK would have more of an incentive to do so (they would both do this). Given I was scumreading him as MQ, I don't see why the claim makes him SK.

[raerae]

And from your argument there's no reason to think MQ made it over SK. I really can't believe you DON'T believe him considering you've taken everybody else's claims at face value. That alone is enough to make me mistrustful of your assessment, especially since it so conveniently fits your already established view of a MQ Ash.

[raerae]

Also, that was directed at Space.

[MiX]

Also, that was directed at Space.

Aww, I had a response readied and everything! That actually seems to make as much sense directed at Space as it does at me.

[raerae]

Also, that was directed at Space.

Aww, I had a response readied and everything! That actually seems to make as much sense directed at Space as it does at me.

My original question was directed at Space, that's why I quoted them and then asked the question.  I know I said I wouldn't coach but hell if I can't stop myself anymore.  You realize that I ask questions to specific people to gauge their responses and see where they fall, right?  When you pop in to answer every question I pose to everybody else it's impossible for me to a grasp on them, impossible for me to see you as town since you're refusing to let me get my own reads, and it makes it unbelievably easy for somebody to buddy you while showing no original thought?  "Oh, MiX has a point here..."  Sometimes you just have to tone it down and wait for somebody else to respond first.

[MiX]

Also, that was directed at Space.

Aww, I had a response readied and everything! That actually seems to make as much sense directed at Space as it does at me.

My original question was directed at Space, that's why I quoted them and then asked the question.  I know I said I wouldn't coach but hell if I can't stop myself anymore.  You realize that I ask questions to specific people to gauge their responses and see where they fall, right?  When you pop in to answer every question I pose to everybody else it's impossible for me to a grasp on them, impossible for me to see you as town since you're refusing to let me get my own reads, and it makes it unbelievably easy for somebody to buddy you while showing no original thought?  "Oh, MiX has a point here..."  Sometimes you just have to tone it down and wait for somebody else to respond first.

I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to know why we're still voting for ash...I believe lynching him today is more important than getting reads, but I suppose we can do both...also, feel free to coach, I don't mind. I'll stay in the backlines then, my vote is placed, I've stated my reasons, doubt I'll change it today-

[raerae]

Also, that was directed at Space.

Aww, I had a response readied and everything! That actually seems to make as much sense directed at Space as it does at me.

My original question was directed at Space, that's why I quoted them and then asked the question.  I know I said I wouldn't coach but hell if I can't stop myself anymore.  You realize that I ask questions to specific people to gauge their responses and see where they fall, right?  When you pop in to answer every question I pose to everybody else it's impossible for me to a grasp on them, impossible for me to see you as town since you're refusing to let me get my own reads, and it makes it unbelievably easy for somebody to buddy you while showing no original thought?  "Oh, MiX has a point here..."  Sometimes you just have to tone it down and wait for somebody else to respond first.

I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to know why we're still voting for ash...I believe lynching him today is more important than getting reads, but I suppose we can do both...also, feel free to coach, I don't mind. I'll stay in the backlines then, my vote is placed, I've stated my reasons, doubt I'll change it today-

I'm not saying don't participate just let somebody else do it first once in a while.  Also, clearly I need reads today since Ash isn't town.  I had Space pegged as the SK too so now my applecart has been all sorts of upset.  If Ash is MQ, who is the other one?  And is there any harm is allowing Ash to live today?  Whether he's MQ or SK he'll be alive tomorrow and we'll have more dead people information.  I don't know whether I believe him or not but I know that phrasing thing isn't enough for me to risk lynching the SK.

[WestCoastDidds]

Great googly moogly! So much going on!

I’m on a flight for the next three hours. I’d like to know what ADK thinks of this latest turn of events.

Rae, I think you and I are town. Who’s our third?

Joth, when is the deadline?

[raerae]

Great googly moogly! So much going on!

I’m on a flight for the next three hours. I’d like to know what ADK thinks of this latest turn of events.

Rae, I think you and I are town. Who’s our third?

Joth, when is the deadline?

I have a suspicion and I don't like it.  But, I mean, I've been wrong about everything else so why not.

[SpaceAnemone]

And from your argument there's no reason to think MQ made it over SK. I really can't believe you DON'T believe him considering you've taken everybody else's claims at face value. That alone is enough to make me mistrustful of your assessment, especially since it so conveniently fits your already established view of a MQ Ash.

Is this targeted at me, or at MIX?

If me, could you please clarify what the "it" in the first sentence is? I think you're referring to the "case" that Maquis!Ash would say the thing about nighttime protection that SK!Ash would not, but then I'm confused as to why the rest doesn't follow for you, so it would be helpful to me if you could break it down a little.

[SpaceAnemone]

Rae, I think you and I are town. Who’s our third?

It me! Though I think it's more likely that one of you and raerae is non-town than that MiX is. If it's you (WCD) then you probably get the win anyway, though...

[WestCoastDidds]

So, ADK is scum either way?

[raerae]

And from your argument there's no reason to think MQ made it over SK. I really can't believe you DON'T believe him considering you've taken everybody else's claims at face value. That alone is enough to make me mistrustful of your assessment, especially since it so conveniently fits your already established view of a MQ Ash.

Is this targeted at me, or at MIX?

If me, could you please clarify what the "it" in the first sentence is? I think you're referring to the "case" that Maquis!Ash would say the thing about nighttime protection that SK!Ash would not, but then I'm confused as to why the rest doesn't follow for you, so it would be helpful to me if you could break it down a little.

That was at MiX, bolded below.  I don't understand why you both think that him saying nighttime actions refers specifically to the Commuter actions and not the SK, they both have night actions.  But if that's the entirety of your argument then there's no reason for you to try to explain it further.

I think MiX has a point. In Ash's claim, he specifically asked us whether scum wouldn't just kill him because he's trying to get town to buy into the idea that he might consider kingmaking on the side of town.

More specifically, he referred to his "nighttime survival skills" as the reason why the Maquis wouldn't kill him in the night. That appears to be referring to Yates's ability as a commuter, whereas the SK should just know that they can never be killed at night because of the bulletproof. It's now possible that Ash will sidestep it by insisting that he meant the SK's nighttime survival skills, but it's also possible that if he's actually Maquis, he's trying to warn the SK off targeting him.

Why does it refer more to the commuter night actions than SK?

Because it refers to both. A SK that has Yates looks at it and sees "sweet, cop protection", not one-shot bulletproof, yet when he said "nighttime survival skillS" (notice the "S"), he's counting both. This is because he's MQ, and as MQ he doesn't want to get NKd (his teammate already got NKd so he knows it can happen), which means he looks at the ability and sees, well, one-shot bulletproof, like town. But that functionality makes no sense as full-bulletproof SK. Thus, he's not SK.

There's also the fact that there's no reason to assume SK made this claim instead of MQ. Really, what makes him more SK than any other player right now? We know he's scum, but what else? I think MQ would absolutely claim SK here and pull the same gambit he is doing and I don't see why SK would have more of an incentive to do so (they would both do this). Given I was scumreading him as MQ, I don't see why the claim makes him SK.

[raerae]

So, ADK is scum either way?

Seems like it to me.

[WestCoastDidds]

So, ADK is scum either way?

Seems like it to me.

Space, you agree?

[ashersky]

Ash, who is MQ?

MiX + SA if I had to say right now from the gut. I know there are a few reasons out there for why it is unlikely, but all things are doable.

You could swap in any other player for SA and I’d not be surprised.

[raerae]

@Ash, why'd you kill shraeye?

[MiX]

Ash, who is MQ?

MiX + SA if I had to say right now from the gut. I know there are a few reasons out there for why it is unlikely, but all things are doable.

You could swap in any other player for SA and I’d not be surprised.

Does everyone love to forget Space was copped N1? How in any way would that happen when Space is MQ?

[ashersky]

Believe me or not, but plural skills regarding night survival would have to count all of my nighttime survival skills. I also have a degree in English, which explains my lacking math skills.

No, no skilled player rolls SK and is pumped about The Godfather portion.

MiX argues “facts” that are just his opinions of optimal play which are woefully suboptimal. Even his argument for why any player might lie about this are flawed. His argument about how/what happens once we correctly lynch him is also flawed. But it’s all to protect himself, like all of his play has been all game.

@Ash, why'd you kill shraeye?

All kills until faust were just mafia/cop hunting guesses, except Jimmmmmm, who literally always catches me as scum.

[ashersky]

Ash, who is MQ?

MiX + SA if I had to say right now from the gut. I know there are a few reasons out there for why it is unlikely, but all things are doable.

You could swap in any other player for SA and I’d not be surprised.

Does everyone love to forget Space was copped N1? How in any way would that happen when Space is MQ?

The consistency in the late game between you two is what makes me think you two can actually be partners. Literally no daylight between you.

[ashersky]

I am out again, back before deadline.

My king making is for real, townies. I clearly thought this through before putting it out there. You can trust me to be as selfish as possible at all times. If I am going to lose, I want to lose in the most spectacular way possible, to whom I want to lose.

[MiX]

No, no skilled player rolls SK and is pumped about The Godfather portion.

What did you think about when you saw you got Yates?

[raerae]

Believe me or not, but plural skills regarding night survival would have to count all of my nighttime survival skills. I also have a degree in English, which explains my lacking math skills.

No, no skilled player rolls SK and is pumped about The Godfather portion.

MiX argues “facts” that are just his opinions of optimal play which are woefully suboptimal. Even his argument for why any player might lie about this are flawed. His argument about how/what happens once we correctly lynch him is also flawed. But it’s all to protect himself, like all of his play has been all game.

@Ash, why'd you kill shraeye?

All kills until faust were just mafia/cop hunting guesses, except Jimmmmmm, who literally always catches me as scum.

Then why not kill MiX?

[ashersky]

No, no skilled player rolls SK and is pumped about The Godfather portion.

What did you think about when you saw you got Yates?

I thought LOL I’m double BP. Commute = BP to me, not safe from cops, like to you. My point was that it isn’t a godfather.

[ashersky]

Believe me or not, but plural skills regarding night survival would have to count all of my nighttime survival skills. I also have a degree in English, which explains my lacking math skills.

No, no skilled player rolls SK and is pumped about The Godfather portion.

MiX argues “facts” that are just his opinions of optimal play which are woefully suboptimal. Even his argument for why any player might lie about this are flawed. His argument about how/what happens once we correctly lynch him is also flawed. But it’s all to protect himself, like all of his play has been all game.

@Ash, why'd you kill shraeye?

All kills until faust were just mafia/cop hunting guesses, except Jimmmmmm, who literally always catches me as scum.

Then why not kill MiX?

How have we not lynched him yet. I overestimated that possibility.

We weren’t lynching shraeye.

[ashersky]

Alright, must go. Back in a few.

[MiX]

No, no skilled player rolls SK and is pumped about The Godfather portion.

What did you think about when you saw you got Yates?

I thought LOL I’m double BP. Commute = BP to me, not safe from cops, like to you. My point was that it isn’t a godfather.

Well, since you have full BP, the only thing commuter's for is one-shot godfather, right? Did you ever think about using it late game to dodge a cop result?

Alright, must go. Back in a few.

I guess I'll have to wait then.

[jotheonah]

Joth, when is the deadline?

in 4 hours

[ashersky]

BP saves me, mafia know who I am. I can now commute the next night to BP again. Not like scum is going to claim the BPed kill to get me lynched.

What is so hard to understand?

[MiX]

BP saves me, mafia know who I am. I can now commute the next night to BP again. Not like scum is going to claim the BPed kill to get me lynched.

What is so hard to understand?

SK has FULL BP. Now do you understand? Commuter won't ever be used to BP.

I have about 1 hour before I have to go, I hope we can lynch ash before that.

[MiX]

In addition to these roles, the SK will gain the bulletproof and strongman modifiers

After much consideration, I’ve made the following changes: the changeling (SK) will gain full bulletproof and full strongman, neither of which will show up on odo’s Investigation.

Joth just won us the game: You forgot to mention SK gains FULL bulletproof and FULL strongman in the initial post. This is why ash missed it. There, there's my conclusion that ash cannot, beyond a shadow of doubt, be SK.

[MiX]

So, to explain: ash, much like faust did earlier, only looked at the first post(s) joth made for setup information, forgetting about the changes joth made after writting the first posts; this is how faust thought SK cop was full-night (instead of even-night) and ash thought SK had a single bulletproof; both of these are changes joth made that do not reflect the first posts. The only way ash would've been caught by this is if his PM didn't state he was full BP, which is a possibility, given these two mod errors, I suppose there could be one more, but the most likely scenario is that ash DIDN'T have it in his PM because he ISN'T SK. Thus, ash isn't SK, which means he's Maquis.

Feel free to poke holes, but I believe this explains this slip perfectly.

[raerae]

So, to explain: ash, much like faust did earlier, only looked at the first post(s) joth made for setup information, forgetting about the changes joth made after writting the first posts; this is how faust thought SK cop was full-night (instead of even-night) and ash thought SK had a single bulletproof; both of these are changes joth made that do not reflect the first posts. The only way ash would've been caught by this is if his PM didn't state he was full BP, which is a possibility, given these two mod errors, I suppose there could be one more, but the most likely scenario is that ash DIDN'T have it in his PM because he ISN'T SK. Thus, ash isn't SK, which means he's Maquis.

Feel free to poke holes, but I believe this explains this slip perfectly.

You never said who the other MQ is.  You need more people on your side to make this happen.  You want my vote, answer my questions.

[MiX]

So, to explain: ash, much like faust did earlier, only looked at the first post(s) joth made for setup information, forgetting about the changes joth made after writting the first posts; this is how faust thought SK cop was full-night (instead of even-night) and ash thought SK had a single bulletproof; both of these are changes joth made that do not reflect the first posts. The only way ash would've been caught by this is if his PM didn't state he was full BP, which is a possibility, given these two mod errors, I suppose there could be one more, but the most likely scenario is that ash DIDN'T have it in his PM because he ISN'T SK. Thus, ash isn't SK, which means he's Maquis.

Feel free to poke holes, but I believe this explains this slip perfectly.

You never said who the other MQ is.  You need more people on your side to make this happen.  You want my vote, answer my questions.

It continues to be ADK. I never changed this fact. Just look at my initial post D5 and where I've voted this day.

[raerae]

So, to explain: ash, much like faust did earlier, only looked at the first post(s) joth made for setup information, forgetting about the changes joth made after writting the first posts; this is how faust thought SK cop was full-night (instead of even-night) and ash thought SK had a single bulletproof; both of these are changes joth made that do not reflect the first posts. The only way ash would've been caught by this is if his PM didn't state he was full BP, which is a possibility, given these two mod errors, I suppose there could be one more, but the most likely scenario is that ash DIDN'T have it in his PM because he ISN'T SK. Thus, ash isn't SK, which means he's Maquis.

Feel free to poke holes, but I believe this explains this slip perfectly.

You never said who the other MQ is.  You need more people on your side to make this happen.  You want my vote, answer my questions.

It continues to be ADK. I never changed this fact. Just look at my initial post D5 and where I've voted this day.

Then let's kill him.  One Maquis is just as good as the other, right?

[SpaceAnemone]

But haven't we already talked about being the SK being full BP? Like, I posted a bunch or reasoning earlier that relied on the fact that it's just impossible for the SK to end up being NKd.

I think an SK who thinks they're only single-bulletproof definitely missed a trick there at throwing extra suspicion onto me for appearing to know something I shouldn't.

[SpaceAnemone]

Then let's kill him.  One Maquis is just as good as the other, right?

Not really. We know ADK's PR is useless, whereas the other Maquis might have a power that can give scum an additional edge, so best play is to lynch the non-ADK Maquis.

[raerae]

I mean, what's left?  There's no vig, no cop, no doc, everything that's left is related to voting, right?

[MiX]

Then let's kill him.  One Maquis is just as good as the other, right?

Not really. We know ADK's PR is useless, whereas the other Maquis might have a power that can give scum an additional edge, so best play is to lynch the non-ADK Maquis.

This is incorrect, as they could've swapped roles. But really, I would simply wait for the NKs to determine the other scum, much easier.

I mean, what's left?  There's no vig, no cop, no doc, everything that's left is related to voting, right?

Garak is left.

[MiX]

Then let's kill him.  One Maquis is just as good as the other, right?

Not if you're ash's partner. Not risking that for a bit when I know 100% that ash is scum. No reason to risk it.

I could've said this last post...

[raerae]

Garak being leftover doesn't matter either because, again, no vig, no cop, no doc.  Here's my concern, what if Ash is lying, what if he's loved, what if he pushes us to deadline and we end up with a No Lynch?  I'd rather get a guaranteed kill than push to deadline.

[raerae]

Yeah, I'm scum and shamelessly and loudly defended my partner for five days.  Caught me.  I'm that bad at being scum.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, one nice thing about Ash's fakeclaim is that it really does open the way up for talking about the SK siding with town here. There are a few possible circumstances where it's useful for the SK to take out the other Maquis, so it's possible they'll follow the fake-SK's lead on that.

[MiX]

Garak being leftover doesn't matter either because, again, no vig, no cop, no doc.  Here's my concern, what if Ash is lying, what if he's loved, what if he pushes us to deadline and we end up with a No Lynch?  I'd rather get a guaranteed kill than push to deadline.

Impossible, scumteam is Garak/O'Brian if snow's scum. Unless...you're Garak? Impossible.

Yeah, I'm scum and shamelessly and loudly defended my partner for five days.  Caught me.  I'm that bad at being scum.

It's as good of a scum gambit as tunnelling town all day, so you tell me.

Also, one nice thing about Ash's fakeclaim is that it really does open the way up for talking about the SK siding with town here. There are a few possible circumstances where it's useful for the SK to take out the other Maquis, so it's possible they'll follow the fake-SK's lead on that.

SK will only kill MQ if we mislynch, so there's no point.

[ashersky]

Or I’m lying town trying to out an overly aggressive SK who overplays their hand.

Or I’m really the SK trying to lure out the mafia into giving themselves away with a seemingly sloppy claim so close to day’s end.

Or I’m SK lying about being the commuter to force a counterclaim to help me choose night targets.

Lots of ORs possible (I can think of more), all of which turn out badly for town.

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, I'm scum and shamelessly and loudly defended my partner for five days.  Caught me.  I'm that bad at being scum.

If you're townie, and we've caught Ash in a scumslip because he didn't know that the SK was fully bulletproof, then it seems like you have a strong incentive to vote for Ash.

[MiX]

Garak being leftover doesn't matter either because, again, no vig, no cop, no doc.  Here's my concern, what if Ash is lying, what if he's loved, what if he pushes us to deadline and we end up with a No Lynch?  I'd rather get a guaranteed kill than push to deadline.

Impossible, scumteam is Garak/O'Brian if snow's scum. Unless...you're Garak? Impossible.

To test your theory, just put him at L-0, I promise I'll vote ADK after that. But you have to hurry.

[SpaceAnemone]

Also, one nice thing about Ash's fakeclaim is that it really does open the way up for talking about the SK siding with town here. There are a few possible circumstances where it's useful for the SK to take out the other Maquis, so it's possible they'll follow the fake-SK's lead on that.

SK will only kill MQ if we mislynch, so there's no point.

Not true. Think about it some more.

[MiX]

Or I’m lying town trying to out an overly aggressive SK who overplays their hand.

Or I’m really the SK trying to lure out the mafia into giving themselves away with a seemingly sloppy claim so close to day’s end.

Or I’m SK lying about being the commuter to force a counterclaim to help me choose night targets.

Lots of ORs possible (I can think of more), all of which turn out badly for town.

Town lying is terrible here and you absolutely know this.

You can't be SK because you slipped non-SK.

You can be MQ!Loved, which is kinda bad for town...

Also, one nice thing about Ash's fakeclaim is that it really does open the way up for talking about the SK siding with town here. There are a few possible circumstances where it's useful for the SK to take out the other Maquis, so it's possible they'll follow the fake-SK's lead on that.

SK will only kill MQ if we mislynch, so there's no point.

Not true. Think about it some more.

Are you including No Lynch scenarios? Because I was not.

[ashersky]

Yeah, I'm scum and shamelessly and loudly defended my partner for five days.  Caught me.  I'm that bad at being scum.

If you're townie, and we've caught Ash in a scumslip because he didn't know that the SK was fully bulletproof, then it seems like you have a strong incentive to vote for Ash.

So many IFs. Might I suggest a re-think?  You can’t catch scum claiming scum in a scumslip. You (especially you) should be considering how much of my claims were true, not how much were lies, and decide if the risk is worth it.

If you really think I’m not the SK or the Commuter, then doesn’t the SK kill me tonight for town anyway?

[ashersky]

Town lying is absolutely 100% the correct move here, and you probably don’t know this yet. But you will, someday.

[raerae]

The other thing nobody's pointed out is that the "real" SK hasn't counter-claimed.

[MiX]

Yeah, I'm scum and shamelessly and loudly defended my partner for five days.  Caught me.  I'm that bad at being scum.

If you're townie, and we've caught Ash in a scumslip because he didn't know that the SK was fully bulletproof, then it seems like you have a strong incentive to vote for Ash.

So many IFs. Might I suggest a re-think?  You can’t catch scum claiming scum in a scumslip. You (especially you) should be considering how much of my claims were true, not how much were lies, and decide if the risk is worth it.

If you really think I’m not the SK or the Commuter, then doesn’t the SK kill me tonight for town anyway?

Lynching MQ's the safest way to get to LyLo, which means we need to lynch you right now.

Town lying is absolutely 100% the correct move here, and you probably don’t know this yet. But you will, someday.

It is not and I guess I'm wrong at the same time. Sadly, you're scum, so you have no reason to make a correct argument, which means I'll have to wait for another game to hear why this is true.

The other thing nobody's pointed out is that the "real" SK hasn't counter-claimed.

SA just agreed with me that ash is MQ. That sounds like the position SK would do. Then again, so did I.

[raerae]

Garak being leftover doesn't matter either because, again, no vig, no cop, no doc.  Here's my concern, what if Ash is lying, what if he's loved, what if he pushes us to deadline and we end up with a No Lynch?  I'd rather get a guaranteed kill than push to deadline.

Impossible, scumteam is Garak/O'Brian if snow's scum. Unless...you're Garak? Impossible.

To test your theory, just put him at L-0, I promise I'll vote ADK after that. But you have to hurry.

I LOVE IT WHEN YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

[MiX]

Garak being leftover doesn't matter either because, again, no vig, no cop, no doc.  Here's my concern, what if Ash is lying, what if he's loved, what if he pushes us to deadline and we end up with a No Lynch?  I'd rather get a guaranteed kill than push to deadline.

Impossible, scumteam is Garak/O'Brian if snow's scum. Unless...you're Garak? Impossible.

To test your theory, just put him at L-0, I promise I'll vote ADK after that. But you have to hurry.

I LOVE IT WHEN YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

STOP BEING STUBBORN AND BE PRO TOWN FOR ONCE! PLEASE! I NEED YOUR VOTE! I KNOW YOU SCUMREAD ME ALL GAME, BUT FOR ONCE, TRUST ME!

Gotta love deadline activity.

[raerae]

Seriously, MiX just ensured I'm not voting for Ash today.  So we can have a lynch or not, you two get to decide.  Ash, come on over to ADK if you aren't there already.

[MiX]

Seriously, MiX just ensured I'm not voting for Ash today.  So we can have a lynch or not, you two get to decide.  Ash, come on over to ADK if you aren't there already.

Raerae, please, think about everyone, not just yourself. Set aside your ego, your pride, your stubborness, and believe in me. Please. This is how we'll win. Why is ADK in any way more MQ than scumslipping!ash? He's not! Dammit! I really don't want to think about an ash!raerae team but you're kinda making me do it! Just vote ash, I beg you, raerae, PLEASE.

[raerae]

Seriously, MiX just ensured I'm not voting for Ash today.  So we can have a lynch or not, you two get to decide.  Ash, come on over to ADK if you aren't there already.

Raerae, please, think about everyone, not just yourself. Set aside your ego, your pride, your stubborness, and believe in me. Please. This is how we'll win. Why is ADK in any way more MQ than scumslipping!ash? He's not! Dammit! I really don't want to think about an ash!raerae team but you're kinda making me do it! Just vote ash, I beg you, raerae, PLEASE.

You literally just accused me of being his partner.  Threatening me works just as well as telling me what to do. 

[MiX]

Seriously, MiX just ensured I'm not voting for Ash today.  So we can have a lynch or not, you two get to decide.  Ash, come on over to ADK if you aren't there already.

Raerae, please, think about everyone, not just yourself. Set aside your ego, your pride, your stubborness, and believe in me. Please. This is how we'll win. Why is ADK in any way more MQ than scumslipping!ash? He's not! Dammit! I really don't want to think about an ash!raerae team but you're kinda making me do it! Just vote ash, I beg you, raerae, PLEASE.

You literally just accused me of being his partner.  Threatening me works just as well as telling me what to do. 

Look, I don't know how to convince you. I don't! I have no idea! But I don't have time to learn, you just have to trust me, please, raerae, just vote ash, he's MQ, can you believe me? Can you believe Space? Anyone? Please? Do something!

And it's not a threat, it's me not wanting to lose to ash!raerae because you were too stubborn to bus today, I really don't want to throw away the slim chance I have to win by doing that.

[MiX]

Is ADK here? Is Didds here? We need some coordination, I have about half an hour left and we need to consolidate our votes.

[raerae]

It's absurd, the SK hasn't counter-claimed, you're voting for him over semantics.  EVERYBODY (except for ADK) agrees ADK is Maquis.  He should be our lynch.

[MiX]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

[SpaceAnemone]

If you're townie, and we've caught Ash in a scumslip because he didn't know that the SK was fully bulletproof, then it seems like you have a strong incentive to vote for Ash.

So many IFs. Might I suggest a re-think?  You can’t catch scum claiming scum in a scumslip. You (especially you) should be considering how much of my claims were true, not how much were lies, and decide if the risk is worth it.

It's one single conditional, and that's on whether raerae is town. If she's town, there's a strong argument for her voting for you.

The rest is fact, it just depends on whether you classify SK as "scum" for "scumslip" or not. I asserted that we've caught you in a scumslip, meaning that we've caught you in a lie only Maquis would tell. It's clearly a lie because your narrative contradicted a mod-given piece of information. You've agreed yourself that there are a limited number of scenarios you've named where this might have happened, all of which involve active deception. By far and away the most likely reason for you to have done that is that you're Maquis fighting to save yourself from the lynch.

The fact that you then threw out a "likely Maquis pair" that included me shows that you haven't really been buying into the genuine Maquis-hunting going on here, because the people who're actively hunting will remember that EFHW cleared me.

PPE 5

[MiX]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

That was L-1. Oops.

[MiX]

So, Space, wanna convince raerae to vote ash or do you just want to lynch the next MQ? I'm fine either way...

[ashersky]

Fake claiming SK as mafia is basically unforgivable if you have partners alive, because you are screwing them over. If I fake claim SK, I do it as town.

As for you being “cleared” stop resting on that possibility, given it could be from a number of other reasons. Including you being the “SK” if you want to keep pushing the idea that I am not.

[ashersky]

I also wish raerae was my partner (or anyone really) because then I’m not in this position.

[MiX]

Fake claiming SK as mafia is basically unforgivable if you have partners alive, because you are screwing them over. If I fake claim SK, I do it as town.

As for you being “cleared” stop resting on that possibility, given it could be from a number of other reasons. Including you being the “SK” if you want to keep pushing the idea that I am not.

You knew you were getting lynched, so how does claiming SK hurt your partners?

I also wish raerae was my partner (or anyone really) because then I’m not in this position.

Come on, Snow was a good partner, and shraeye? Man, that guy was so towny SK took him out! Don't hate on your MQ buddies 

[MiX]

So, ash didn't hammer ADK. Why? Ash, this is the only way you are living. So, be a good partner and bus!

Honest question: did you notice the L-1?

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

I think you should move back to Ash. At least one of WDC and ADK have to be non-Maquis, so they should vote for Ash, then either raerae joins us, or the other Maquis sees an opportunity for townpoints, given that Ash has actually painted himself into a corner with his claim.

Also, I think you should stop any further measures to persuade raerae personally (or by proxy!), because telling her what to do in the tone you've been using is condescending and offensive. It's only a game, and none of us should be letting behaviour standards drop just because we might not win.

[MiX]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

I think you should move back to Ash. At least one of WDC and ADK have to be non-Maquis, so they should vote for Ash, then either raerae joins us, or the other Maquis sees an opportunity for townpoints, given that Ash has actually painted himself into a corner with his claim.

Also, I think you should stop any further measures to persuade raerae personally (or by proxy!), because telling her what to do in the tone you've been using is condescending and offensive. It's only a game, and none of us should be letting behaviour standards drop just because we might not win.

Look, if you convince raerae to swap to ash, I'll do so in a heartbeat: I've given up, I have no idea how to. Feel free to try, but I'll only swap after she does.

[raerae]

Ash, are you pushing for a no lynch right now?

[MiX]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

I think you should move back to Ash. At least one of WDC and ADK have to be non-Maquis, so they should vote for Ash, then either raerae joins us, or the other Maquis sees an opportunity for townpoints, given that Ash has actually painted himself into a corner with his claim.

Also, I think you should stop any further measures to persuade raerae personally (or by proxy!), because telling her what to do in the tone you've been using is condescending and offensive. It's only a game, and none of us should be letting behaviour standards drop just because we might not win.

Look, if you convince raerae to swap to ash, I'll do so in a heartbeat: I've given up, I have no idea how to. Feel free to try, but I'll only swap after she does.

Also, vote ADK right now to test if he's Loved. If he is, we won't lynch him today, which means we'll have to go for ash: then I'll swap. So there's 2 ways of getting my vote, I would appreciate if you did the "vote ADK" one so I don't have to stay up just to move my vote.

[raerae]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

I think you should move back to Ash. At least one of WDC and ADK have to be non-Maquis, so they should vote for Ash, then either raerae joins us, or the other Maquis sees an opportunity for townpoints, given that Ash has actually painted himself into a corner with his claim.

Also, I think you should stop any further measures to persuade raerae personally (or by proxy!), because telling her what to do in the tone you've been using is condescending and offensive. It's only a game, and none of us should be letting behaviour standards drop just because we might not win.

Look, if you convince raerae to swap to ash, I'll do so in a heartbeat: I've given up, I have no idea how to. Feel free to try, but I'll only swap after she does.

Also, vote ADK right now to test if he's Loved. If he is, we won't lynch him today, which means we'll have to go for ash: then I'll swap. So there's 2 ways of getting my vote, I would appreciate if you did the "vote ADK" one so I don't have to stay up just to move my vote.

If you believe ADK is O'Brien then he can't be loved.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

I think you should move back to Ash. At least one of WDC and ADK have to be non-Maquis, so they should vote for Ash, then either raerae joins us, or the other Maquis sees an opportunity for townpoints, given that Ash has actually painted himself into a corner with his claim.

Also, I think you should stop any further measures to persuade raerae personally (or by proxy!), because telling her what to do in the tone you've been using is condescending and offensive. It's only a game, and none of us should be letting behaviour standards drop just because we might not win.

Look, if you convince raerae to swap to ash, I'll do so in a heartbeat: I've given up, I have no idea how to. Feel free to try, but I'll only swap after she does.

The most pro-town thing you can do is to give totally on making anything conditional on raerae. You don't get to control her.

[ashersky]

I’m glad raerae gets it.

I am not hammering ADK because the lynch should be me or MiX, no matter what from a town perspective.

The case on ADK has only been as my partner, which fails not only because it is false but also because it isn’t that strong. As far as wagon analysis goes based on the SA algorithm, that’s been cracked so it’s trivial for a scum team to game.

I am 100% for sure scum, probably. (Except where I’m not, which I’d guess is like 25% of the time here.).  I am sure MiX is scum (mafia Garak probably, although if I’m town then he’s the SK).

So, there are just no other options with such great odds of flipping scum. Obviously I don’t want me to be lynched, and I 100% don’t want mafia to win, so I will do whatever it takes to lose to town.

If you still can’t “believe” I’m SK, i don’t know what to tell you. I claimed two — 2 — counterable things and everyone has posted, so if you believed all the other claims...

[ashersky]

Ash, are you pushing for a no lynch right now?

Not actively.  Just laid out my thinking. If the option is no lynch or my lynch, well, like I said, selfish always trumps.

[MiX]

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

I think you should move back to Ash. At least one of WDC and ADK have to be non-Maquis, so they should vote for Ash, then either raerae joins us, or the other Maquis sees an opportunity for townpoints, given that Ash has actually painted himself into a corner with his claim.

Also, I think you should stop any further measures to persuade raerae personally (or by proxy!), because telling her what to do in the tone you've been using is condescending and offensive. It's only a game, and none of us should be letting behaviour standards drop just because we might not win.

Look, if you convince raerae to swap to ash, I'll do so in a heartbeat: I've given up, I have no idea how to. Feel free to try, but I'll only swap after she does.

Also, vote ADK right now to test if he's Loved. If he is, we won't lynch him today, which means we'll have to go for ash: then I'll swap. So there's 2 ways of getting my vote, I would appreciate if you did the "vote ADK" one so I don't have to stay up just to move my vote.

If you believe ADK is O'Brien then he can't be loved.

Right, I had just told you this before. Although he could've swapped roles with his MQ buddy, it doesn't make sense for him to do so.

New plan: Space, vote ADK so the day ends and I can sleep knowing we got a lynch done. Please?

Vote: ADK

You know what who cares, ash!raerae is essencially impossible. You win raerae, not gonna argue more.

I think you should move back to Ash. At least one of WDC and ADK have to be non-Maquis, so they should vote for Ash, then either raerae joins us, or the other Maquis sees an opportunity for townpoints, given that Ash has actually painted himself into a corner with his claim.

Also, I think you should stop any further measures to persuade raerae personally (or by proxy!), because telling her what to do in the tone you've been using is condescending and offensive. It's only a game, and none of us should be letting behaviour standards drop just because we might not win.

Look, if you convince raerae to swap to ash, I'll do so in a heartbeat: I've given up, I have no idea how to. Feel free to try, but I'll only swap after she does.

The most pro-town thing you can do is to give totally on making anything conditional on raerae. You don't get to control her.

I...what? I can't do that, raerae's vote is decisive on who dies, I need to vote where raerae votes...not doing so would be anti-town.

Yes, I get it, I've been too condescending on raerae, but there's no way I can be "neutral" anymore, so...now what? No idea. Can we get a lynch done?

I’m glad raerae gets it.
I am not hammering ADK because the lynch should be me or MiX, no matter what from a town perspective.

Vote: ash, at this point I just want one of them to get lynched...

[MiX]

I have now entered the equivelent of drunk!MiX but with sleepyness, so expect a lot of nonsense while we don't get a lynch done. By the way, can we get a lynch done? I feel like doing ash now, that sounds fun, especially when he doesn't wanna hammer ADK.

[raerae]

I’m glad raerae gets it.

I am not hammering ADK because the lynch should be me or MiX, no matter what from a town perspective.

The case on ADK has only been as my partner, which fails not only because it is false but also because it isn’t that strong. As far as wagon analysis goes based on the SA algorithm, that’s been cracked so it’s trivial for a scum team to game.

I am 100% for sure scum, probably. (Except where I’m not, which I’d guess is like 25% of the time here.).  I am sure MiX is scum (mafia Garak probably, although if I’m town then he’s the SK).

So, there are just no other options with such great odds of flipping scum. Obviously I don’t want me to be lynched, and I 100% don’t want mafia to win, so I will do whatever it takes to lose to town.

If you still can’t “believe” I’m SK, i don’t know what to tell you. I claimed two — 2 — counterable things and everyone has posted, so if you believed all the other claims...

ADK is scum if you're SK because MiX is scum with ADK.  Since I had Space in the SK slot she falls to town with me and Didds.  ADK being scum isn't entirely dependent, from my perspective, on you being his partner.  I think he is regardless.  Unless, maybe, if you're lying town but I can't wrap my mind around that.

[ashersky]

MiX’s wild vigor is dangerous. And now he seems to imply it could be me/Rae.  He does recall there are three scums to hunt, right?  Maybe he should counterclaim me.

If I’m lying town, while other things are difficult to process, why I’m not voting for ADK isn’t one.

[MiX]

MiX’s wild vigor is dangerous. And now he seems to imply it could be me/Rae.  He does recall there are three scums to hunt, right?  Maybe he should counterclaim me.

The REAL SK is still Space, so, yeah. I still think it's ash/ADK, but I want to lynch literally any of these two, so I'll move my vote around wherever, as long as we lynch I'm fine, they're both scum anyway.

[ashersky]

I’m glad raerae gets it.

I am not hammering ADK because the lynch should be me or MiX, no matter what from a town perspective.

The case on ADK has only been as my partner, which fails not only because it is false but also because it isn’t that strong. As far as wagon analysis goes based on the SA algorithm, that’s been cracked so it’s trivial for a scum team to game.

I am 100% for sure scum, probably. (Except where I’m not, which I’d guess is like 25% of the time here.).  I am sure MiX is scum (mafia Garak probably, although if I’m town then he’s the SK).

So, there are just no other options with such great odds of flipping scum. Obviously I don’t want me to be lynched, and I 100% don’t want mafia to win, so I will do whatever it takes to lose to town.

If you still can’t “believe” I’m SK, i don’t know what to tell you. I claimed two — 2 — counterable things and everyone has posted, so if you believed all the other claims...

ADK is scum if you're SK because MiX is scum with ADK.  Since I had Space in the SK slot she falls to town with me and Didds.  ADK being scum isn't entirely dependent, from my perspective, on you being his partner.  I think he is regardless.  Unless, maybe, if you're lying town but I can't wrap my mind around that.

Then MiX is scum, as you’ve been saying since like D1.

When will we on the same mafia team, anyway?  Seems almost unfair to everyone else.

[raerae]

I’m glad raerae gets it.

I am not hammering ADK because the lynch should be me or MiX, no matter what from a town perspective.

The case on ADK has only been as my partner, which fails not only because it is false but also because it isn’t that strong. As far as wagon analysis goes based on the SA algorithm, that’s been cracked so it’s trivial for a scum team to game.

I am 100% for sure scum, probably. (Except where I’m not, which I’d guess is like 25% of the time here.).  I am sure MiX is scum (mafia Garak probably, although if I’m town then he’s the SK).

So, there are just no other options with such great odds of flipping scum. Obviously I don’t want me to be lynched, and I 100% don’t want mafia to win, so I will do whatever it takes to lose to town.

If you still can’t “believe” I’m SK, i don’t know what to tell you. I claimed two — 2 — counterable things and everyone has posted, so if you believed all the other claims...

ADK is scum if you're SK because MiX is scum with ADK.  Since I had Space in the SK slot she falls to town with me and Didds.  ADK being scum isn't entirely dependent, from my perspective, on you being his partner.  I think he is regardless.  Unless, maybe, if you're lying town but I can't wrap my mind around that.

Then MiX is scum, as you’ve been saying since like D1.

When will we on the same mafia team, anyway?  Seems almost unfair to everyone else.

We'd have to lightly scumread each other all game, it would be exhausting.

More people feel more sure of ADK than MiX.  ADK would really be the best option for town today.  You get the pleasure of killing MiX tonight.  We vote no lynch, hold hands, and sing all day tomorrow for all I care.  I know we can wipe out Maquis though and if we have to kill ADK today to do it then we should. 

[MiX]

Vote: ADK

Space, help me, I can't go on for much longer, just accept that it's not ash!me or something like that, why aren't you voting for ADK anyway?

[raerae]

Space, are we locked in an epic battle of wills or would you entertain coming over to ADK?

[MiX]

Space, are we locked in an epic battle of wills or would you entertain coming over to ADK?

Both, and please settle it as soon as possible, I need to leave like now but I really don't want to make one of you vote my way, would rather see why you do so instead of being forced by me.

Go raerae! I believe in you! Go Space! It's your birthday, you can't be wrong!

[WestCoastDidds]

Hi! I just landed. I’m not caught up. What do I need to do?

[raerae]

Space, are we locked in an epic battle of wills or would you entertain coming over to ADK?

Both, and please settle it as soon as possible, I need to leave like now but I really don't want to make one of you vote my way, would rather see why you do so instead of being forced by me.

Go raerae! I believe in you! Go Space! It's your birthday, you can't be wrong!

Ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha.  We have soooooooooo been over this.  If you're town it's absolutely to town's detriment that you won't back off on it.  If you're scum, great job distracting the hell out of me with it. 

I don't know, Space, how do you feel about MiX lynch just for the fun of it?

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 5.5

"So how did operation 'Stop the mob' go?" Dax asks her "staff" who are all at the bar at Leeta's.

Morn shrugs. Kasidy says "Ummm". Garak speaks up.

"We talked about it and we decided the risk to our own safety wasn't worth it. Those station denizens are out of control."

"But on the plus side, I'm watering down the drinks, so maybe that will help," Leeta chimes in.



MiX (1): ashersky
Ashersky (1): SpaceAnemone
ADK (3): raerae, WestCoastDidds, MiX
Not voting (1): ADK

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch most players. Day 5 will end at 9 pm ET time (13:00 GMT) on Sunday, April 7th.

[MiX]

Space, are we locked in an epic battle of wills or would you entertain coming over to ADK?

Both, and please settle it as soon as possible, I need to leave like now but I really don't want to make one of you vote my way, would rather see why you do so instead of being forced by me.

Go raerae! I believe in you! Go Space! It's your birthday, you can't be wrong!

Ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha.  We have soooooooooo been over this.  If you're town it's absolutely to town's detriment that you won't back off on it.  If you're scum, great job distracting the hell out of me with it. 

I don't know, Space, how do you feel about MiX lynch just for the fun of it?

I can't say "I have no idea what you are talking about" with more of a straight face than I'm doing. Maybe tomorrow I'll understand.

Hi! I just landed. I’m not caught up. What do I need to do?

Convince Space to vote ADK.

[raerae]

Hi! I just landed. I’m not caught up. What do I need to do?

Welcome back!!  To summarize, MiX told me I HAVE to vote Ash, I was stubborn.  Space is still on Ash, Ash won't hammer ADK, we're dangerously close to No Lynch because somebody keeps telling somebody what to do.

[ashersky]

Hi! I just landed. I’m not caught up. What do I need to do?

I recommend a MiX vote. I think Rae would join us.

[MiX]

In other news, I'm done trying to decide which MQ to lynch, which means I'm leaving for the night. If you want a lynch, you'll have to follow me.

So, good job raerae, you win, I'll stay on ADK.

Space, vote ADK! Good night everyone!

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, are we locked in an epic battle of wills or would you entertain coming over to ADK?

I'm suspicious that we have enough support for an ADK lynch, though I now recognise that WCD has left her vote there. Before the VC, I hadn't remembered that she was voting for him, which made me deeply suspicious that the four of us present and posting might get a lynch through, because I strongly suspect at least one Maquis in our number.

Mostly I've been waiting for the other two to turn up, catch up and weigh in. I'm here all the way to the wire if necessary.

[SpaceAnemone]

In other news, I'm done trying to decide which MQ to lynch, which means I'm leaving for the night. If you want a lynch, you'll have to follow me.

So, good job raerae, you win, I'll stay on ADK.

Space, vote ADK! Good night everyone!

If you're town, the fact that you didn't make more of a noise earlier about not staying till deadline, and the fact you're locking us into this, are not at all helpful.

[WestCoastDidds]

Can we make KiX happen?

[SpaceAnemone]

Hi! I just landed. I’m not caught up. What do I need to do?

No way am I voting MiX. I think he's being moody and getting upset about being unable to talk town into voting his way, but I think his inferences are correct as far as the Maquis go. He's dead wrong on me being SK, but that part hardly matters right now.

[raerae]

Can we make KiX happen?

I'm not super wild about it, would rather leave him to Ash.

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay...we have like an hour and a half, right? I saw Joth’s 4 hour list and freaked out.

I’m still not read in, yet, but I’m cool with ADK or MiX

Can we make ADK happen?

[SpaceAnemone]

Hi! I just landed. I’m not caught up. What do I need to do?

Ash is all but confirmed Maquis. He made a claim about being the SK, but his narrative included the SK only having a single shot of bullet-proof, whereas the SK described somewhere in the opening ramble gets full bulletproof, i.e. is not killable by NK any night. Ash seemed to think it was only for one night, so there's little chance of him being the real SK. He's all but admitted lying to town, and is now trying to hint and wifom his way into getting the rest of us to think than maybe he had a grand plan for which town lying to town made sense. I'm totally sold on him being Maquis.

[raerae]

Okay...we have like an hour and a half, right? I saw Joth’s 4 hour list and freaked out.

I’m still not read in, yet, but I’m cool with ADK or MiX

Can we make ADK happen?

Numbers-wise it's possible.

[SpaceAnemone]

Okay...we have like an hour and a half, right? I saw Joth’s 4 hour list and freaked out.

I’m still not read in, yet, but I’m cool with ADK or MiX

Can we make ADK happen?

ADK can happen trivially, but that in itself worries me, because I think there are five players in the game who could vote for him, and that means he's probably not Maquis.

[raerae]

Okay...we have like an hour and a half, right? I saw Joth’s 4 hour list and freaked out.

I’m still not read in, yet, but I’m cool with ADK or MiX

Can we make ADK happen?

ADK can happen trivially, but that in itself worries me, because I think there are five players in the game who could vote for him, and that means he's probably not Maquis.

Unless you believe Ash is his partner and therefore won't hammer him.

[WestCoastDidds]

Space, are you the SK?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Guys I am super not available and a million things have happened since I looked at the thread this morning. If Ash is (likely) lying (this is based on some post a bit up) why aren't we lunching him?

[SpaceAnemone]

For the lynch, it's almost certainly ADK or nothing at this point, because MiX left his vote on ADK. There's a small chance he comes back again, though, if he cools down and realises that shouting at people trying to make them do what he wants can only be destined to have something like the opposite effect...

[SpaceAnemone]

Guys I am super not available and a million things have happened since I looked at the thread this morning. If Ash is (likely) lying (this is based on some post a bit up) why aren't we lunching him?

Mostly because MiX threw and entitled strop when raerae was miffed at him for acting in a controlling and entitled manner.

[SpaceAnemone]

Guys I am super not available and a million things have happened since I looked at the thread this morning. If Ash is (likely) lying (this is based on some post a bit up) why aren't we lunching him?

Mostly because MiX threw and entitled strop when raerae was miffed at him for acting in a controlling and entitled manner.

Meh.. that was a bit hastily fired off and not entirely fair or grammatical. Sorry on several counts :-(

[raerae]

Yeah, MiX and I probably have a few things we can both improve on next time but here we are.

[WestCoastDidds]

I was following. Threw a fit, entitled. Check.

[WestCoastDidds]

I don’t think I am down for lunching Ash.

But MiX or ADK are cool by me.

ADK, are you voting for MiX?

[WestCoastDidds]

(I’m in the car heading home, in my phone...so spotty thoughts and lousy typing.)

[SpaceAnemone]

I don’t think I am down for lunching Ash.

Why not? Do you seriously think he had good townie reasons for lying to town? Or do you think he's genuinely the SK who made a mistake about his bulletproof protection which he's now trying to hide by being all mysterious about how town might lie to town.

[WestCoastDidds]

Are there enough people to make Ash happen?

[WestCoastDidds]

He was at L-1 when it happened. I don’t put it past him to lie, but I’m not sure why the real SK hasn’t said so, unless that person is anti-town, too

[WestCoastDidds]

I believe MiX when he said he was going to bed. So, his vote is staying.

Rae, would you lynch Ash?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I don’t think I am down for lunching Ash.

But MiX or ADK are cool by me.

ADK, are you voting for MiX?

No, is there a reason I should be?

[WestCoastDidds]

ADK, are you going to vote for Ash? For anyone?

[SpaceAnemone]

He was at L-1 when it happened. I don’t put it past him to lie, but I’m not sure why the real SK hasn’t said so, unless that person is anti-town, too

The SK is pretty much anti-town by definition, so there's that. I don't think they benefit from counterclaiming Ash immediately. I mean, they could have claimed much earlier in the day and shrunk our lynchpool even further, but they chose not to do that...

[WestCoastDidds]

Space, is there some reason you won’t vote for ADK?

I’m not trying to pressure anyone, MiXstyle, with my questions. Just trying to see where the lines are and where there might be overlap.

[WestCoastDidds]

He was at L-1 when it happened. I don’t put it past him to lie, but I’m not sure why the real SK hasn’t said so, unless that person is anti-town, too

The SK is pretty much anti-town by definition, so there's that. I don't think they benefit from counterclaiming Ash immediately. I mean, they could have claimed much earlier in the day and shrunk our lynchpool even further, but they chose not to do that...

But we NEED to lynch MQ or lose. Is he MQ?

[raerae]

I believe MiX when he said he was going to bed. So, his vote is staying.

Rae, would you lynch Ash?

I don't really want to.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space, is there some reason you won’t vote for ADK?

Yes, right now I firmly believe that Ash is conf!Maquis, and I'm deeply suspicious of how many people are just not all over that. My plan was to wait till you and ADK actually weighed in before giving into MiX's vote, because I think Ash's scumslip was of the sort of magnitude that he should be an unquestionable lynch to the point where his scumbuddy jumps on the wagon for the townpoints.

[SpaceAnemone]

He was at L-1 when it happened. I don’t put it past him to lie, but I’m not sure why the real SK hasn’t said so, unless that person is anti-town, too

The SK is pretty much anti-town by definition, so there's that. I don't think they benefit from counterclaiming Ash immediately. I mean, they could have claimed much earlier in the day and shrunk our lynchpool even further, but they chose not to do that...

But we NEED to lynch MQ or lose. Is he MQ?

Do you really think that a player who's fully bulletproof and can't be killed at night conveniently forgets that they can't be killed, and thinks they have a one-shot power? Because if Ash is SK, that's what he did.

[WestCoastDidds]

So,

we could easily get or have
3 on MiX (Asher, Rae, WCD)
3 on ADK (MiX, Rae, WCD)
2 On Asher (ADK, Space)

For MiX to go off, we need ADK and/or Space
For ADK, we need Space and/or Ashersky
For Ash, we need Rae and WCD

Space, you are the lynchpin to two of those. Any thoughts?

[WestCoastDidds]

I am willing to vote for Ash.

We’d still need one or two more

[WestCoastDidds]

I do not like ADK not voting. At this stage, even just checking in to see what’s what, not voting is scummy.

Let’s vote for ADK

[SpaceAnemone]

So,

we could easily get or have
3 on MiX (Asher, Rae, WCD)
3 on ADK (MiX, Rae, WCD)
2 On Asher (ADK, Space)

For MiX to go off, we need ADK and/or Space
For ADK, we need Space and/or Ashersky
For Ash, we need Rae and WCD

Space, you are the lynchpin to two of those. Any thoughts?

ADK is the backup, but I see that as probably a town loss because it's too easy. Aren't you, MiX and raerae already voting

I would push to lynch raerae before MiX at this point. MiX has done nothing but hunt scum, and while I don't condone his posting style, his deductions are making good logical sense, which I conclude makes him non-Maquis. He may very well be the real SK (since he keeps trying to pin that on me, and I'm not), but he's not Maquis.

[SpaceAnemone]

@WCD, if you think it's ADK-Ash, do you agree that there's a benefit in lynching Ash first in case he's got a PR that could mess with town's ability to lynch tomorrow or something?
(Leaving aside the question for now that we've been left in the lurch with an unmovable vote on ADK)

[raerae]

FYI, we have 34 minutes.

[WestCoastDidds]

@WCD, if you think it's ADK-Ash, do you agree that there's a benefit in lynching Ash first in case he's got a PR that could mess with town's ability to lynch tomorrow or something?
(Leaving aside the question for now that we've been left in the lurch with an unmovable vote on ADK)

What would that be? The double vote? Loved? I’m not sure how probable that is, but I’m not the numbers person.

I can’t see how we make Ash happen. ADK isn’t voting, MiX is asleep, Rae doesn’t wanna, Ash isn’t voting for himself.

[WestCoastDidds]

It says 3 of us are reading. Rae, Space, me. We have to make a choice we can make happen

[raerae]

It says 3 of us are reading. Rae, Space, me. We have to make a choice we can make happen

Where's your heart, Didds?

[ashersky]

SA defending MiX so hard is super scummy. They are the only other person I’ll vote today. I’ll shoot the other tonight, unless there’s a better choice?

[SpaceAnemone]

Yeah, it's unlikely to happen that we do lynch Ash, but I want to understand what kind of thinking leads to people being unwilling to even state that they think he's Maquis here, or that he should be lynched. Raerae is refusing explicitly, but the fact that WCD and ADK are just kind of umming about it, while ADK isn't even voting at all has me kind of baffled.

[WestCoastDidds]

I don’t want to lose.

ADK not voting when he knows it’s deadline is stinking up the joint.

I haven’t had a chance to really process all of the Asher claim, BP, is it a  lie stuff.

[SpaceAnemone]

SA defending MiX so hard is super scummy. They are the only other person I’ll vote today. I’ll shoot the other tonight, unless there’s a better choice?

As you apparently keep forgetting, since you've never honestly been Maquis-hunting in this game, I'm the only one of us who's cop-guaranteed not to be Maquis.

[WestCoastDidds]

Yeah, it's unlikely to happen that we do lynch Ash, but I want to understand what kind of thinking leads to people being unwilling to even state that they think he's Maquis here, or that he should be lynched. Raerae is refusing explicitly, but the fact that WCD and ADK are just kind of umming about it, while ADK isn't even voting at all has me kind of baffled.

I’m not trying to be uhmming. I’ve been legit scattered all day by travel.

ADK is a different story. I don’t want to be in his basket.

[raerae]

Let's do ADK, I have to go put my kid down.

[SpaceAnemone]

I don’t want to lose.

ADK not voting when he knows it’s deadline is stinking up the joint.

I haven’t had a chance to really process all of the Asher claim, BP, is it a  lie stuff.

Even if you're Dax and town, it wasn't looking great even at the start of the day. MiX's logic helped us a bunch, though his manner definitely hurt us, as I think did the fact that he left his vote on ADK instead of Ash. I'm completely sold on it being a lie both because he messed up the SK claim and also because it's Ash, and scum!Ash would 100% try to come up with a flashy claim to weasel himself out of a lynch situation, so a non-Maquis claim is approximately twice as likely to come from Maquis!Ash as from SK!Ash, since he's twice as likely to be Maquis than to be SK. That's not including the really small chance that town!Ash might produce a ridiculous lie, but if so, I'd put more blame for our loss onto him, because he'd have known what kind of people he's playing with, and how badly wrong that could go.

[WestCoastDidds]

Let's do ADK, I have to go put my kid down.

Goodnight, offspring!

[WestCoastDidds]

I don’t want to lose.

ADK not voting when he knows it’s deadline is stinking up the joint.

I haven’t had a chance to really process all of the Asher claim, BP, is it a  lie stuff.

Even if you're Dax and town, it wasn't looking great even at the start of the day. MiX's logic helped us a bunch, though his manner definitely hurt us, as I think did the fact that he left his vote on ADK instead of Ash. I'm completely sold on it being a lie both because he messed up the SK claim and also because it's Ash, and scum!Ash would 100% try to come up with a flashy claim to weasel himself out of a lynch situation, so a non-Maquis claim is approximately twice as likely to come from Maquis!Ash as from SK!Ash, since he's twice as likely to be Maquis than to be SK. That's not including the really small chance that town!Ash might produce a ridiculous lie, but if so, I'd put more blame for our loss onto him, because he'd have known what kind of people he's playing with, and how badly wrong that could go.

I think this is a good argument and I am aware that you have more experience with him than anyone else alive. That is the main reason that I’d move my vote there if this was happening. None of the rest of us know his play style as well as you do. I trust you more than I trust him, even if that is to my detriment.

[WestCoastDidds]

And yes, MiX has really bound us up with his vote. He is not my favorite.

[WestCoastDidds]

Okay, I think we have about 8 minutes.

Space? Asher?

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm willing to vote ADK to get a lynch through, since there's still an okayish chance that he's scum. But it's absolutely not what I would have wanted in this position.. I feel forced by virtually all five of you, which is frustrating when two of you are supposed to be on my team.

[SpaceAnemone]

And yes, MiX has really bound us up with his vote. He is not my favorite.

Nobody else is my favourite at this point either.

[WestCoastDidds]

And yes, MiX has really bound us up with his vote. He is not my favorite.

Nobody else is my favourite at this point either.

Fair enough.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: ADK

Fingers crossed he's actually Ash's partner. Right now a significant part of my gut says it was raerae after all though..

[WestCoastDidds]

Oof...that would suck

[WestCoastDidds]

Just always voting for MiX would be genius then

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 5.6

"Wait a minute," Dax says to Kasidy, Morn, Garak, and Kai Winn, who are all still at the bar getting drunk. "Where's Miles? I guess it makes sense he'd actually be doing his job, since he is in Starfleet. Still I'd better check on him."

Dax heads to the security office where she sent O'Brien to repair the forcefields. Miles is dead.

"I saw him start to shapeshift!" the Bajoran deputy on duty says. "At least, I thought I did. I guess I'm a little jumpy."

"Well, he's not a shapeshifter," Dax says. "But look at this console. He wasn't repairing the forcefield. He was transmitting tactical data to the Maquis!"

ADK has been lynched. He was Miles O'Brien, the Maquis Mirror Universe cop.


MiX (1): ashersky
ADK (3): raerae, WestCoastDidds, MiX, SpaceAnemone
Not voting (1): ADK

With 6 alive, it took 4 to lynch. Night 5 begins now and will end at 9 pm forum time on Tuesday, April 9th.

THREAD LOCKED.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 6.0

"Warning. Warning. Explosive decompression in Docking Ring 3."

The sound of the Cardassian computer awakens Garak. His first thought: "Did I set any explosives?" His second thought: "Is someone trying to kill me?"

It's only with his third thought that he remembers his last-minute Starfleet commission and decides to respond to the crisis.

When he arrives, Dax, Morn, and Kai Winn are already waiting for him. A chunk of the docking ring is gone, a forcefield holding between the hallway and empty space as repair crews get to work. Beyond the forcefield, debris. Someone destroyed a ship that was docked here-- and thoroughly at that.

"It's the Xhosa" Dax says. "And according to sensor logs, Kasidy was onboard."

raerae has been killed. She was Kasidy Yates, the 1-shot commuter.


Not voting (4): ashersky, WestCoastDidds, MiX, SpaceAnemone

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Day 6 begins now and will end at 9 pm forum time on Tuesday, April 16th.


(Deep Space Nine Fans, a new and highly anticipated documentary about the making of the show is playing in select theaters one night only in May.)

THREAD UNLOCKED.

[WestCoastDidds]

Oh, raerae. Sad to see you go!

Hooray for lynching ADK! Space, I hope getting it right helped mediate the being annoyed?

So, three to lynch....Dax, Garak, a double voter, and a loved person remains? So, people who understand endgames, is it possible for town to win? Or are we just deciding between MQ and SK? Is there room for hope or just darkness? Feels pretty dark, but lynching correctly was good news.

[ashersky]

Lynch SK or mafia, town loses.

Lynch town, up to who shoots who for a winner to be decided. If one scum kills town or doesn’t shoot or hits a BP, the other scum wins. If neither scum shoots, kingmaking lylo where town loses.

So, for town to win, no lynch and hope scum kill each other is the only option.  Even then, a no lynch into one scum death and one town death is a town loss, but both scum die and only one scum dies are possibilities, so chances are better. 

Full breakdown:

Lynch scum - town loses 100% (Commuter is gone, WCD claimed, so scum shoots remaining town for the win.)

Lynch town...1/4 chance to win.
Scum kill each other and town wins.
One scum dies, the other survives, town endgamed.
One town dies, scum wins by mod decision?  Town loses.
No one dies, kingmaker lylo, town loses.

No lynch...2/5 chances to win.
Scum kill each other and town wins.
One scum dies, the other survives, regular lylo.
One scum dies, one town dies, scum wins.
One town dies, kingmaker lylo, town loses.
Two town dies, scum wins by mod decision? Town loses.

[ashersky]

No one should vote anything but No Lynch, given the double voter existing. Loved doesn’t matter at LYLO.

[ashersky]

Also, MiX is the SK. If he’s also double voter, he’s hoping to double hammer someone when a vote is placed anywhere other than him.

[ashersky]

Wait, SK auto-wins because of the full BP I forgot when I faked.

So, no lynch, he shoots me, you lynch him. Except if he logs on first tomorrow, he double votes to hammer SA for the win.

[ashersky]

So we lynch SK today and then I shoot SA and win or we no lynch and hope both of you log on first.

Hate for a game to be determined by who’s on at deadline.

[ashersky]

Unless SA is double voter?

Please claim.

Basically, SA and WCD should decide who they want to lose to or see if they can coordinate a IRL time when they can both be assured to log on before MiX, end the day at that time so that the next game day starts at the same time. Then they lynch SK before he can double vote.

[ashersky]

If MiX is Loved, it doesn’t work anymore so that’s out. Just need SA claim and you two to decide what you want to do.

I will say I think having a game decided by who can log on first is not fun at all.

[ashersky]

So, to recap:

I am the remaining mafia member (obviously).  I shot MiX and he’s still in the game. He is not deathproof per WCD claim and is not Commuter per raerae flip. Must be SK.

Because MiX cannot be removed from the game at night, all scum kill each other situations are out.

Gotta run, finish later.

[ashersky]

Lynch mafia: SK kills and wins.
Lynch SK: Mafia kills and wins.
Lynch town: SK kills mafia and wins.
No lynch: SK kills mafia, mafia no kill, and races to double vote win or loses to double voter?
No lynch: SK no kill, mafia no kill, start over.
No lynch: SK no kill, mafia town kill, kingmaker lylo where double voter reigns.

I don’t see any other sensible endings.

[MiX]

I'll kill Space if town no lynches, so town loses. Same for ash. I believe this should be a SK win, given that if I didn't have bulletproof correct move would be for town to no lynch and pray scum shoot each other, but that can't happen.

I'm sorry everyone! I know I played terribly and highly survivalistic, but I had to, I really wanted to had drawn town this game...but I didn't. Being SK is why I was townreading raerae so much, since she correctly saw me.

Last night was a coinflip: if I hadn't killed commuter then town would enter LyLo after lynching ash tonight, but I realized that raerae wouldn't commute yet because Space looked like a better target (or me, I don't know), given I guessed correctly in the night I believe (selfishly) that I should win (dah).

I'm Loved, if that matters. Up to town now.

Vote: ash

[MiX]

Ash, when did you realize I was SK? I wanna see MQ's QT but asking you should work too. I was on the fence between you, snow, shraeye and E N2, that was a funny NK pool.

[MiX]

There's also another plan: What happens when only 1 of each scumteam are alive? If it results in a joint victory then we should do that instead.

[ashersky]

vote: mix

Both town should vote no lynch, I guess, so long as SA confirms they are the double voter.

MiX, you played very well in my eyes, with just some issues in your style and your thinking. Once QTs are released, you can see my thoughts on the matter.

It’s up to the townies to pick a winner or go to a lucky night.

For what it’s worth, I think full-BP is a bad call and 1-shot of each extra power made much more sense.

[ashersky]

There's also another plan: What happens when only 1 of each scumteam are alive? If it results in a joint victory then we should do that instead.

That’s true. Then we lynch WCD then each shoot a townie at night?

[ashersky]

Except we can’t lynch WCD without SA.

[MiX]

There's also another plan: What happens when only 1 of each scumteam are alive? If it results in a joint victory then we should do that instead.

That’s true. Then we lynch WCD then each shoot a townie at night?

Correct. I'll kill Space, you kill Didds. Is that alright?

Vote: Didds

vote: mix
MiX, you played very well in my eyes, with just some issues in your style and your thinking. Once QTs are released, you can see my thoughts on the matter. 

Thank you! And to answer the rest, I didn't realize just how STRONG full BP is, but I have to tell faust 2 things:

1 - Sorry for killing you N4 after townreading me all game, I actually felt bad.

2 - Thanks for making joth buff SK, even cop's much less threatning. I've wanted to say this for a looong time, so there.

Also, I killed Swan N3 because everyone was scumreading me, which meant SK cop wasn't one of the players that was doing that, and Swan fit in perfectly. Just wanted to say that.

Except we can’t lynch WCD without SA.

We'll have to convince them we both played well, I suppose.

[ashersky]

Plan works for me, so long as we can get SA and WCD on board.

I gotta say, fakeclaiming SK was fun.

Again, sorry rae.

[MiX]

Plan works for me, so long as we can get SA and WCD on board.

I gotta say, fakeclaiming SK was fun.

Again, sorry rae.

Agreed, sorry raerae, also, what was your plan when claiming SK? What did you believe was going to happen?

Just making post-game talk untill Space's here and hammers someone, anything else we can do today?

[MiX]

By playing as aggressively as he has I would not be surprised if MiX is loved, regardless of alignment.

Ash, did you see this? Because I did: it was genius and I believe that's why you killed him that night (he claimed Non-Loved).

Should we share our kills? Oh, you go first: why did you kill Glooble? That really confused me.

[ashersky]

I didn’t know what would happen when I claimed, although I figured it would be enough to keep me alive.

Best case, I get the SK lynched and we win. Worst case, ADK got lynched.

I claimed the two things I needed to out — SK and commuter. Neither countered, so that didn’t help.

As for kills at night, mostly it was who could be the cop and/or who we thought would be too hard to lynch. We weren’t scumhunting there. I want to say shraeye thought things through the most.

[MiX]

I claimed the two things I needed to out — SK and commuter. Neither countered, so that didn’t help.

Just realized raerae knew you were lying, that is some excellent play, wow. I did believe Space was commuter, so her gambit worked. Problem was I thought Space would commute whereas raerae would not, guess I was right.

Ash, did you ever use Garak? Otherwise, excited to see everyone's QTs, I sorta roleplayed in mine because being SK is lonely and I needed to stay positive. I also have to say I softclaimed Loved when ash hammerer Robz, anyone noticed that? Wasn't intentional but it was there.

Space, wake up, you have the power!

[ashersky]

Bus drove Rae to WCD on the night we killed chicken.

[MiX]

Bus drove Rae to WCD on the night we killed chicken.

Why? For confusion? Did you think one of them was SK?

[SpaceAnemone]

RIP raerae. Sad we were both right about our top scum-picks yesterday!

I'm gonna wait till Didds shows up, since her sleep time is not nearly as many effective timezones apart from mine as you'd expect from the geography, and I'm just out of an hour of meetings, so she's probably awake already...

I think it's pretty clear what I want to do here, but using double-voting to king-make is a bit of an abuse of power, so I'd prefer to have an ally with whom to discuss my feelings :-)

[MiX]

RIP raerae. Sad we were both right about our top scum-picks yesterday!

She was right about me from the very start, you just caught me with PoE 

I think it's pretty clear what I want to do here, but using double-voting to king-make is a bit of an abuse of power, so I'd prefer to have an ally with whom to discuss my feelings :-)

I hope you make us both win, MQ played very well, somehow lynching Uncle D4, crazy, and I managed to live this long, mostly due to the way I dodged the lynch D2, proud of that one. But overall your call.

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning, Space!

I’m up...

[MiX]

Good morning, Space!

I’m up...

Can you please vote yourself? Who do you want to kingmake? I suggest both me and ash, we both played well in my opinion.

Also, sorry for scumreading you D4, I legit trusted ash more, and someone said "Didds eventually gets NKd when scum realize she was town" so I stubbornly opposed that idea.

Sorry for being SK!

[jotheonah]

Because of full BP, one of each scum team alive and no one else, assuming SK is one of the teams, is an SK win.

[MiX]

Because of full BP, one of each scum team alive and no one else, assuming SK is one of the teams, is an SK win.

Damn. Oh well, worth a shot.

Vote: ash

[WestCoastDidds]

Space, without hearing your thoughts at all, my initial inclination is to lynch MiX.

If we have to choose a winner, I’d rather it be MQ.  I can elaborate as to why, but generally I don’t prefer crowning someone who was consistently overstepping boundaries of civility. I was literally thisclose to quitting the game after his attack on me. In #436, he articulates his belief that “I am a firm believer that I should be aggressive here and that Didds can take it. If I am wrong, I apologize.“ Letting him win justifies the behavior. Also, he could have chosen to be a pro-town SK, but didn’t. I’m not sure why he think town would extend kindness to him now. Asher was playing, to my mind, more within the bounds of the game. I don’t feel itchy about his win.

But I recognize that is my experience, and it has been colored by that exchange, so I am willing to be convincedif you are of a different mind.

[MiX]

Also, he could have chosen to be a pro-town SK, but didn’t. I’m not sure why he think town would extend kindness to him now.

Although I cannot objectively adress the other points, I have always tried to scumhunt legitimately at every opportunity, every single time I could. I always tried to do pro-town moves, even if they looked anti-town, because all I wanted was to lynch MQ. The problem was MQ played really well so I lynched Uncle, that was really sad. But, feel free to provide examples of me being anti-town, I hope I didn't do them (well, maybe at the end, but I knew ash and ADK were scum and I had already warned everyone that my time was limited over and over, it didn't matter where I left my vote), if you find enough of them I'll accept my loss.

I'm sorry for the outlash Didds, I had the words "Vote: X, PR hunting" in my mind ever since I got SK and that was the perfect time to say them. The rest I cannot excuse.

[SpaceAnemone]

Who do you want to kingmake? I suggest both me and ash, we both played well in my opinion.

Ash's lying winds me up. Howcome nobody else (except the scums, evidently..) ever notices when he's making such wild and clearly scummy claims? And it annoys me that on the one game where he didn't come up with one of those ridiculous Ash-plans, he's scum after all, which plays too nicely into his meta and encourages him to make the Ash-plans in future.

However Ash pulled all of that off without insulting and pissing off half of the player-list of the game, and I think that's worth a lot of points in the king-making balance. Since there's nothing flavour-related that dictates how we are expected to play at this juncture, I think it's fair to come back to f.ds mafia meta here. Ash is a skilled player, and the fact I get wound up by it is just my problem. On the other hand, MiX was actually out of line a lot of the time; even when his logic was good at the end, he got shouty and controlling. I'm pretty sure raerae would be the first to agree that we don't want to encourage that aggressive and entitled playstyle, but she's far from being the only one who objected.

So.. I will vote to lynch MiX, but I won't double-vote, so that WCD can weigh in as well.

PPE 2: Yes, WCD and I are agreeing. Phew.

[MiX]

Well, raerae knew ash was lying, she was just trying to not claim commuter at all costs. So, yeah, I believe everyone knew ash was scum.

If that's the kingmaking decision, then I accept it. I suppose I'll have to wait more games untill I win. I apologize for my performance. Space, hammer me already.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: MiX

I'm sorry it came down to king-making, MiX. Your logic was good in the end, but you need to work hard on how to be more aware of the people you're playing with as humans as well as opponents. I say this as someone else who finds people skills difficult, so I know it's hard work and can distract from the game goal in the short term. In the long term, though, it makes for much better games, because mutual respect and mutual enjoyment make for a much better environment, and lead to more and better interactions.

PPE 1: ... and you're still giving orders! :-P

[SpaceAnemone]

I think that's only L-1, since WCD hasn't placed her vote yet. As I said, double-voting for king-making seems a bit like an abuse of power somehow...

[WestCoastDidds]

I love it when we see the world the same way, Space.

Vote: MiX

MiX, I think there is a difference between playing to win and playing well. And in a game about community, I think there are ways to do both. I’m not mad, but I am trying to draw a bead on that distinction.

[MiX]

PPE 1: ... and you're still giving orders! :-P

Untill my last breath I will state my opinions that favour town in the form of orders. Why not? As I've said, I've been doing everything I could that was pro-town, which included not giving information when it was bad for town to do so and to give it when it was good for town to do it. There's no reason to subvert my opinions in this game, the more reactions I get out the better. I know no one (exaggeration?) supports this, which is why I'm getting lynched today, but I will believe this untill the game is over.

I'm sorry it came down to king-making, MiX. Your logic was good in the end, but you need to work hard on how to be more aware of the people you're playing with as humans as well as opponents. I say this as someone else who finds people skills difficult, so I know it's hard work and can distract from the game goal in the short term. In the long term, though, it makes for much better games, because mutual respect and mutual enjoyment make for a much better environment, and lead to more and better interactions.

My logic was always good in the entire game, unless you point to a counterexample. My people skills were not. Note how my gut reads were basically flipped every time and how I generally treated everyone.

Well, I hope that's the first and last game of SK, playing it is incredibly lonely, makes me feel evil and it takes a lot of work to simply get kingmaked. Good job MQ. Can't believe shraeye wins this.

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

...Goodbye. I'm actually sad. I'm sorry...

[SpaceAnemone]

For some twilight post-game analysis: The reason MiX gave himself away as SK yesterday was that he kept posting SK-relevant advice to the thread. Had he been town, that would have been a really unwise thing to do, in case SK would otherwise play suboptimally and thereby assist town. I think town!MiX should have noticed it eventually, especially after I cautioned him not to, but he just kept on doing it :-P

[MiX]

Dammit, how did I lose? My plan was going great! Everyone was dying! How did I get caught? Ah, ash, you just had to shoot me last night didn't you? Didds was the correct call, in case I didn't kill commuter. Darn...ash, did you realize this? Or did you know you were going to win the kingmake?

[MiX]

For some twilight post-game analysis: The reason MiX gave himself away as SK yesterday was that he kept posting SK-relevant advice to the thread. Had he been town, that would have been a really unwise thing to do, in case SK would otherwise play suboptimally and thereby assist town. I think town!MiX should have noticed it eventually, especially after I cautioned him not to, but he just kept on doing it :-P

I know you're smart, Space, everything I thought about you would think too. I feared nothing. Of course, I was giving advice to MQ, soooo much advice I can't even count it!

[SpaceAnemone]

I love it when we see the world the same way, Space.

Yeah, I felt a bit bad coming to the conclusion I did all by myself this morning, so it's a big relief to find that I'm not out on a limb being unacceptably meta or something :-)

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

...Goodbye. I'm actually sad. I'm sorry...

Pretend this was my final post. Farewel.

[MiX]

Vote: MiX

...Goodbye. I'm actually sad. I'm sorry...

Pretend this was my final post. Farewell.

Hehe, not gonna leave that post unedditted

[WestCoastDidds]

I know you're smart, Space, everything I thought about you would think too. I feared nothing. Of course, I was giving advice to MQ, soooo much advice I can't even count it!

This! No way that is pro-town!

[WestCoastDidds]

I love it when we see the world the same way, Space.

Yeah, I felt a bit bad coming to the conclusion I did all by myself this morning, so it's a big relief to find that I'm not out on a limb being unacceptably meta or something :-)

Nah, I think it’s important. Rae would agree, too, I think.

[WestCoastDidds]

Besides, MiX also ensured we lynched ADK instead of Ash which was also not awesome

[MiX]

Besides, MiX also ensured we lynched ADK instead of Ash which was also not awesome

Oh cmon I literally had to go! What else was I supposed to do?

Joth, lynch me come on!

I know you're smart, Space, everything I thought about you would think too. I feared nothing. Of course, I was giving advice to MQ, soooo much advice I can't even count it!

This! No way that is pro-town!

It didn't really matter at that point...but fine.

[WestCoastDidds]

You’re right, it’s fair that you needed to sleep. Apologies.

[MiX]

I know you're smart, Space, everything I thought about you would think too. I feared nothing. Of course, I was giving advice to MQ, soooo much advice I can't even count it!

This! No way that is pro-town!

I also had to do it so raerae wouldn't no lynch, which means it was sorta pro-town...at first. I also could've said MQ should shoot Dax if I really wanted to say everything.

[WestCoastDidds]

I know you're smart, Space, everything I thought about you would think too. I feared nothing. Of course, I was giving advice to MQ, soooo much advice I can't even count it!

This! No way that is pro-town!

I also had to do it so raerae wouldn't no lynch, which means it was sorta pro-town...at first. I also could've said MQ should shoot Dax if I really wanted to say everything.

Pro-town would have been night killing Asher! Ha!

[MiX]

You’re right, it’s fair that you needed to sleep. Apologies.

I also warned everyone of this an hour before I did it, not to mention I wanted a lynch badly.

Vote: MiX

...Goodbye. I'm actually sad. I'm sorry...

Joth, wake up so this is the last thing I say!

[ashersky]

Joth, I will do the obvious tonight, so feel free to end it without taking it through 48 hours of night. MiX is lynched, SA is NK.

Thanks all. Sorry about the lying, but, well, I am mafia, after all.

[ashersky]

Re vote: MiX in case I messed up before.

[MiX]

Vote: MiX, and I agree with ash, end it now.

[jotheonah]

Vote Count 6.1

In the ward room, Dax, Morn, Kai Winn, and Garak are all about to begin a staff meeting.

"I'm sorry to do this to you all," Garak says, pulling out a Cardassian phaser. "But I'm taking over this station on behalf of the Maquis. We'll be using it as a base to equip our freedom fighters."

"But you're a Cardassian!" Dax says. "How could you possibly join the Maquis?"

"You don't know much about espionage, do you?" Garak says. "My new compatriots recognize that all Cardassians are not the enemy. Just most of them. A position on which I happen to agree. I'll admit I'm a bit concerned that a changeling still seems to be at large on the station, but I'll let the station's new Maquis management sort that out."

Suddenly, Morn liquifies, a gold tentacle shooting out from his gelatinous form in Garak's direction. But as quick as the transformation begins, it's clear that something is wrong. The tentacle falters, the gold liquid turns a sickly brown, and then black. The Changeling crumbles to dust.

"It appears 'Morn' here forgot about the anti-shapeshifting field the Obsidian Order developed before its attack on the Founder's homeworld. With everything tied up, I'll take the command codes to my station."

Kai Winn lunges across the room.

"The prophets will protect me!" she screams as Garak vaporizes her.

"Dax," Garak says. "I consider you a friend. Unlike her. Let's end this with no more bloodshed?"

MiX has been lynched. He was Morn, the Loved serial killer.

SpaceAnemone has been nightkilled. She was Kai Winn, the double voter

WestCoastDidds has been endgamed. She was Jadzia Dax, the deathproof townie.


The Maquis scum team of Shraeye, ADK, and ashersky (Garak, the Maquis busdriver/lightning rod) wins the game.

ash (1): MiX
MiX (1): ash, SpaceAnemone, WestCoastDidds

With 4 alive, it took 3 to lynch.

MVP and postgame notes to come. If anyone wants to redact from their personal QTs, you have six hours and then I'll post them all. For now:

Speccy: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/WimvVtmwwcSwy
Scum QT: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/srKdhmWwEPP
Ferengi QT: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/QPNbeLsmMbi5

[MiX]

Didds' claim was incredibly anti-town to the point where it cost town the game. There, now I have nothing else to say.

Can I post my QT?

[jotheonah]

Didds' claim was incredibly anti-town to the point where it cost town the game. There, now I have nothing else to say.

Can I post my QT?

Sure.

[MiX]

https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/txt6YjWMYeV

There's my thought process and some theory talk, alongside what I hope to be meta tells. Use them well, everyone.

[WestCoastDidds]

Yep, I’m LVP, for sure. Le sigh...

[jotheonah]

Thank you everyone for playing, and I apologize for the anticlimactic final day. As well as for my many, many minor mod errors along the way.

I learned a lot about running a closed setup and about the dangers of last-minute changes to setup design. I do believe, as most of you do, that in retrospect fully bullet-proof serial killer was OP. But I also think town had its share of bad luck and misplays. All in all, I think it ended up a fun game that any faction could have won had things gone differently, but perhaps a bit unbalanced against town.

The flavor goal of this setup has always been a slam dunk as far as I'm concerned, and I hope everyone enjoyed the vignettes. Special thanks to Glooble for jumping in and writing some great flavor. Also special thanks to ADK for what might be the shortest replacement in f.ds history, and to EFHW for subbing in for LaLight. You da real MVPs, as they say (but neither of you is the MVP).

The mechanical goal of this setup was to have a game where (A) its multiball with ambiguity about who the scum teams are (and there are three cops, but one is naive) and (B) power roles and flavor identities are independent of alignment. These goals are both deeply problematic from a balance perspective and probably beyond my skills as a game designer to balance properly. But I do think they're worthwhile and they made the game feel fun and unique.

I doubt I will run this setup again, but I thoroughly enjoyed it both times and I hope the players did too.

As a side note, I'm proud to have run a game with more non-male-identifying folks in it than maybe ever before and I'm really happy about the way that diversity in this community is growing. I think we're better for it. Fun fact: on Day 5, the town was actually majority women, the women were all town and the men were all scum, and everyone's flavor character gender matched their own. All these things were pure coincidence. (Apologies here if I've made any wrong assumptions about how people identify).

I'm not sure if MVP has to be from the winning team. If so, ashersky it is. He did play very well. If not, I would give MVP to MiX. He played incredibly well, and I think he could have won this setup even without the full BP or the SK cop debuff.

Night action tracker Google Sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zI3-u6PzQSUroodlLUWDoHQro4kFJz51rIiapnkSwQI/edit?usp=sharing

[MiX]

I would never recieve MVP by myself: if anything it should be shraeye/ash/me; shraeye played really really towny and his death implicated town, that's not an easy feat.

[jotheonah]

Yep, I’m LVP, for sure. Le sigh...

Idk, I think Robz gives you a run for your money. Who gets lynched Day 1 as IC?

[jotheonah]

One more thing: I am taking a bit of a break, but my next role madness game is going to be based on "A Series of Unfortunate Events" and it's going to be a closed setup with a lot of fun, interesting, experimental roles. Based more on the Netflix show than the books, sorry purists. Glooble is going to co-develop and co-mod.

[WestCoastDidds]

I’m also super stoked that there were so many non-dudes playing. Between this set up, more non-men playing, and the gender pronouns in Ancillary Justice, the community feels both progressive and hospitable. All of the folks who have been working to make that the case, I appreciate you.

[WestCoastDidds]

One more thing: I am taking a bit of a break, but my next role madness game is going to be based on "A Series of Unfortunate Events" and it's going to be a closed setup with a lot of fun, interesting, experimental roles. Based more on the Netflix show than the books, sorry purists. Glooble is going to co-develop and co-mod.

/in

[raerae]

One more thing: I am taking a bit of a break, but my next role madness game is going to be based on "A Series of Unfortunate Events" and it's going to be a closed setup with a lot of fun, interesting, experimental roles. Based more on the Netflix show than the books, sorry purists. Glooble is going to co-develop and co-mod.

/IN

[raerae]

I approve of this ending and Ash getting MVP, he fooled me like a pro.

[faust]

I'm not sure if MVP has to be from the winning team. If so, ashersky it is. He did play very well. If not, I would give MVP to MiX. He played incredibly well, and I think he could have won this setup even without the full BP or the SK cop debuff.

Doesn't have to be, but I think MiX brought about his own demise with his NK choice and therefore I would find it a bit strange if he got MVP. I agree that he played well up until that point though.

[MiX]

I'm not sure if MVP has to be from the winning team. If so, ashersky it is. He did play very well. If not, I would give MVP to MiX. He played incredibly well, and I think he could have won this setup even without the full BP or the SK cop debuff.

Doesn't have to be, but I think MiX brought about his own demise with his NK choice and therefore I would find it a bit strange if he got MVP. I agree that he played well up until that point though.

No way I would win LyLo with Didds and raerae alive. Completely impossible. Also, even if we lynched Space, raerae would commute (she wasn't getting lynched). Overall I increased my chances by shooting raerae.

[raerae]

I'm not sure if MVP has to be from the winning team. If so, ashersky it is. He did play very well. If not, I would give MVP to MiX. He played incredibly well, and I think he could have won this setup even without the full BP or the SK cop debuff.

Doesn't have to be, but I think MiX brought about his own demise with his NK choice and therefore I would find it a bit strange if he got MVP. I agree that he played well up until that point though.

No way I would win LyLo with Didds and raerae alive. Completely impossible. Also, even if we lynched Space, raerae would commute (she wasn't getting lynched). Overall I increased my chances by shooting raerae.

You keep assuming I didn't use my commute.  Why do you think that?

[faust]

I'm not sure if MVP has to be from the winning team. If so, ashersky it is. He did play very well. If not, I would give MVP to MiX. He played incredibly well, and I think he could have won this setup even without the full BP or the SK cop debuff.

Doesn't have to be, but I think MiX brought about his own demise with his NK choice and therefore I would find it a bit strange if he got MVP. I agree that he played well up until that point though.

No way I would win LyLo with Didds and raerae alive. Completely impossible. Also, even if we lynched Space, raerae would commute (she wasn't getting lynched). Overall I increased my chances by shooting raerae.

Well your decision was to either shoot Maquis and prevent a Maquis win or town and prevent a town win. You chose to prevent a town win, no wonder town decided to give the win to Maquis after that.

[WestCoastDidds]

Oh, interesting...so MiX was the kingmaker?

[MiX]

I'm not sure if MVP has to be from the winning team. If so, ashersky it is. He did play very well. If not, I would give MVP to MiX. He played incredibly well, and I think he could have won this setup even without the full BP or the SK cop debuff.

Doesn't have to be, but I think MiX brought about his own demise with his NK choice and therefore I would find it a bit strange if he got MVP. I agree that he played well up until that point though.

No way I would win LyLo with Didds and raerae alive. Completely impossible. Also, even if we lynched Space, raerae would commute (she wasn't getting lynched). Overall I increased my chances by shooting raerae.

Well your decision was to either shoot Maquis and prevent a Maquis win or town and prevent a town win. You chose to prevent a town win, no wonder town decided to give the win to Maquis after that.

Think about it from my perspective: I would never had won, ever, if I killed ash. Killing town enabled a kingmaking decision which was better than certain death. I completely underestimated town's hatred of me and my play, however: in hindsight, I suppose I had already lost. Regardless, if I was thinking about kingmaking, then I would've done the same, MQ played better than town in my opinion.

[jotheonah]

It probably would never in a million years have worked, but town's best play on Day 6 was for Space to counterclaim WCD convincingly or for WCD to admit to being Kai Winn. If they had managed to convince ash to shoot WCD, because of deathproof and/or double vote, town could win Day 7. So even at the end when ash said town had no path to victory, there was at least a Hail Mary that could have been attempted.

[raerae]

I'm not sure if MVP has to be from the winning team. If so, ashersky it is. He did play very well. If not, I would give MVP to MiX. He played incredibly well, and I think he could have won this setup even without the full BP or the SK cop debuff.

Doesn't have to be, but I think MiX brought about his own demise with his NK choice and therefore I would find it a bit strange if he got MVP. I agree that he played well up until that point though.

No way I would win LyLo with Didds and raerae alive. Completely impossible. Also, even if we lynched Space, raerae would commute (she wasn't getting lynched). Overall I increased my chances by shooting raerae.

Well your decision was to either shoot Maquis and prevent a Maquis win or town and prevent a town win. You chose to prevent a town win, no wonder town decided to give the win to Maquis after that.

Think about it from my perspective: I would never had won, ever, if I killed ash. Killing town enabled a kingmaking decision which was better than certain death. I completely underestimated town's hatred of me and my play, however: in hindsight, I suppose I had already lost. Regardless, if I was thinking about kingmaking, then I would've done the same, MQ played better than town in my opinion.

You aren't wrong but you have to know your audience.  Your appeal to Space and Didds was "I deserve this win."  That argument was NEVER going to win those two over.  Had you come at it more analytically like, "Look how long I survived under so much suspicion, this is why I killed this person and that person, I made this play because..." you might have had a better shot.  But all game people have been telling you tone it down and you came in and said you deserved something, that was never going to swing your way.

[Robz888]

Yep, I’m LVP, for sure. Le sigh...

Idk, I think Robz gives you a run for your money. Who gets lynched Day 1 as IC?

Well, I'm going to defend my play. If I was certain I was going to be lynched, I would have claimed, but at my last check in, it was far from clear. And to my mind the risk is worth it—I'm a long surviving player, usually, who is eventually viewed as highly suspicious, so having the ability to confirm myself as one of the remaining townies late game can be a huge advantage. I would sooner take a risk that would be awesome for town if it worked out, then do the safe thing that wastes my power and likely gets me nightkilled quick. I also just really didn't think I would get lynched. And I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very against this trend of waiting until the absolute last minute to lynch or even L-1 anybody on Day 1, better to do it earlier and get a claim or two, so if I can in my small party discourage doing that in the future is was well worth it!

[MiX]

It probably would never in a million years have worked, but town's best play on Day 6 was for Space to counterclaim WCD convincingly or for WCD to admit to being Kai Winn. If they had managed to convince ash to shoot WCD, because of deathproof and/or double vote, town could win Day 7. So even at the end when ash said town had no path to victory, there was at least a Hail Mary that could have been attempted.

No one would believe it, Didds is too honest to a fault.

Think about it from my perspective: I would never had won, ever, if I killed ash. Killing town enabled a kingmaking decision which was better than certain death. I completely underestimated town's hatred of me and my play, however: in hindsight, I suppose I had already lost. Regardless, if I was thinking about kingmaking, then I would've done the same, MQ played better than town in my opinion.

You aren't wrong but you have to know your audience.  Your appeal to Space and Didds was "I deserve this win."  That argument was NEVER going to win those two over.  Had you come at it more analytically like, "Look how long I survived under so much suspicion, this is why I killed this person and that person, I made this play because..." you might have had a better shot.  But all game people have been telling you tone it down and you came in and said you deserved something, that was never going to swing your way.

Hindsight 20/20. I can't counter 5 days of what I did into 1 day of saying "look how good I am", Didds would never, ever buy it and I hurt Space personally twice. So, no, I refuse to believe this was possible.

Yep, I’m LVP, for sure. Le sigh...

Idk, I think Robz gives you a run for your money. Who gets lynched Day 1 as IC?

Well, I'm going to defend my play. If I was certain I was going to be lynched, I would have claimed, but at my last check in, it was far from clear. And to my mind the risk is worth it—I'm a long surviving player, usually, who is eventually viewed as highly suspicious, so having the ability to confirm myself as one of the remaining townies late game can be a huge advantage. I would sooner take a risk that would be awesome for town if it worked out, then do the safe thing that wastes my power and likely gets me nightkilled quick. I also just really didn't think I would get lynched. And I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very against this trend of waiting until the absolute last minute to lynch or even L-1 anybody on Day 1, better to do it earlier and get a claim or two, so if I can in my small party discourage doing that in the future is was well worth it!

Did you read D2? If so, check my big VCA: from the moment Swan/Awaclus voted, you were dead. Were you online after that? You should've claimed then, the odds the lynch would go on someone else was incredibly low. Also, if you did use IC, chances are LL would get lynched, which would be worse. So...it wasn't that bad.

Or I'm wrong. Doesn't matter much now.

[raerae]

Hindsight 20/20. I can't counter 5 days of what I did into 1 day of saying "look how good I am", Didds would never, ever buy it and I hurt Space personally twice. So, no, I refuse to believe this was possible.

You'd be surprised how forgiving people can be when you admit you're wrong and show you've changed.  But, you're right, they probably would have seen through that.

[Uncleeurope]

Well, I personally think MiX deserves the MVP. Being the loser in a king-making scenario is rough, and he played well enough to be a winner as Joth said.

[MiX]

Hindsight 20/20. I can't counter 5 days of what I did into 1 day of saying "look how good I am", Didds would never, ever buy it and I hurt Space personally twice. So, no, I refuse to believe this was possible.

You'd be surprised how forgiving people can be when you admit you're wrong and show you've changed.  But, you're right, they probably would have seen through that.

I would be lying if I told town that. So...yeah. I need to show that I've changed, not say it.

[WestCoastDidds]

MiX, I think you are so, so smart. I hope that you can see that playing with more kindness, less ordering people around, and less certainty about unknowns will serve your purposes better in the long term. There’s some good reasons to go into games with an accumulation of goodwill.

[WestCoastDidds]

Ultimately, I think the idea that if it’s in the game or it serves the purposes of the game, then it will just be forgiven is false. We all understand the game, but the people are real.

[MiX]

Ultimately, I think the idea that if it’s in the game or it serves the purposes of the game, then it will just be forgiven is false. We all understand the game, but the people are real.

On the other hand, I believe that's why this is a game: everyone's playing to win according to what they drew, which means their behaviour shouldn't be held accountable unless for the purposes of a future game. These differences are something I should really change for this format.

[raerae]

Ultimately, I think the idea that if it’s in the game or it serves the purposes of the game, then it will just be forgiven is false. We all understand the game, but the people are real.

On the other hand, I believe that's why this is a game: everyone's playing to win according to what they drew, which means their behaviour shouldn't be held accountable unless for the purposes of a future game. These differences are something I should really change for this format.

From my prospective this site is community first, game second. 

[EFHW]

Joth and Glooble, the flavor was GREAT. I  haven't watched DS9 for a long time. I felt right back on the Space Station. Thanks for the game!

[SpaceAnemone]

Joth and Glooble, the flavor was GREAT. I  haven't watched DS9 for a long time. I felt right back on the Space Station. Thanks for the game!

I've had the DS9 theme tune, and my favourite track from the first DS9 CD, in my head since the game started :-)

Thank you, Joth & Glooble!

[SpaceAnemone]

From my prospective this site is community first, game second.

Yes, absolutely!

[SpaceAnemone]

Well, I personally think MiX deserves the MVP. Being the loser in a king-making scenario is rough, and he played well enough to be a winner as Joth said.

I would be sad to see the f.ds community legitimising the kind of behaviour that made multiple other players consider /outing by awarding the aggressor an MVP. Especially when the aggressor is still insisting that behaviour shouldn't be held accountable.

[MiX]

Well, I personally think MiX deserves the MVP. Being the loser in a king-making scenario is rough, and he played well enough to be a winner as Joth said.

I would be sad to see the f.ds community legitimising the kind of behaviour that made multiple other players consider /outing by awarding the aggressor an MVP. Especially when the aggressor is still insisting that behaviour shouldn't be held accountable.

Well, I believe MVP nominations are part of the game, and thus I should be held accountable for this in this case. But if you want to personally judge me based on my performance this game, that I disagree with. Am I being selfish? Perhaps.

[WestCoastDidds]

Thank you, Joth! Thank you, Glooble!

I will happily belly up to the bar with the DS9 denizens.

[jotheonah]

Well, I personally think MiX deserves the MVP. Being the loser in a king-making scenario is rough, and he played well enough to be a winner as Joth said.

I would be sad to see the f.ds community legitimising the kind of behaviour that made multiple other players consider /outing by awarding the aggressor an MVP. Especially when the aggressor is still insisting that behaviour shouldn't be held accountable.

This is a fair point.

This game has honestly gone on so long it's hard for me to consider people's play holistically. Like someone said Shraeye should be MVP and I'm like "what did Shraeye do? I've slept since then". So I guess this is my way of saying I'm considering nominations.

[jotheonah]

Also, I think my line on personal QTs is individuals can post them or not at their leisure.

[jotheonah]

faust managed to make himself an IC, which is a pretty impressive feat in this setup. And he went so many nights without being killed.

[jotheonah]

Ultimately, I think the idea that if it’s in the game or it serves the purposes of the game, then it will just be forgiven is false. We all understand the game, but the people are real.

On the other hand, I believe that's why this is a game: everyone's playing to win according to what they drew, which means their behaviour shouldn't be held accountable unless for the purposes of a future game. These differences are something I should really change for this format.

I think we all agree there are lines you don't cross. We might disagree on where those lines are. I think, as a community, we should strive to put them where they don't make anyone uncomfortable or hurt anybody.

[MiX]

faust managed to make himself an IC, which is a pretty impressive feat in this setup. And he went so many nights without being killed.

faust's ICness was wasted by him having...well...really bad reads. Removing ash and Snow from the lynch pool in D4 was...bad. It really secured the Uncle lynch. Otherwise, I think he just had a cop magnet and the only role that cops itself, so, yeah, he managed to do the somewhat impossible.

This game has honestly gone on so long it's hard for me to consider people's play holistically. Like someone said Shraeye should be MVP and I'm like "what did Shraeye do? I've slept since then". So I guess this is my way of saying I'm considering nominations.

shraeye should be MVP so we can trashtalk the mod when he said it should be me or ash. Wait... 

[ashersky]

My QT: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/rFk3vK6R7ytLX
Maquis: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/srKdhmWwEPP

Did anyone notice I never once used the word Maquis (or MU) in my posts?

[raerae]

My QT: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/rFk3vK6R7ytLX
Maquis: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/srKdhmWwEPP

Did anyone notice I never once used the word Maquis (or MU) in my posts?

Just out of curiosity, did you think I believed your claim?

[MiX]

My QT: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/rFk3vK6R7ytLX
Maquis: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/srKdhmWwEPP

Did anyone notice I never once used the word Maquis (or MU) in my posts?

Just out of curiosity, did you think I believed your claim?

That reminds me: what did you think would happen during the night? Did you think I would shoot Space or ash?

[raerae]

My QT: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/rFk3vK6R7ytLX
Maquis: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/srKdhmWwEPP

Did anyone notice I never once used the word Maquis (or MU) in my posts?

Just out of curiosity, did you think I believed your claim?

That reminds me: what did you think would happen during the night? Did you think I would shoot Space or ash?

I ran through about every scenario but was hoping I seemed gullible enough to survive. 

[shraeye]

faust managed to make himself an IC, which is a pretty impressive feat in this setup. And he went so many nights without being killed.

faust's ICness was wasted by him having...well...really bad reads.

I disagree that a good IC must have good reads.  Like, of course it's better if the IC is also clairvoyant.  But it's town who screws themselves (with scum help) when everybody says "well, XXX is the IC, so we have to do exactly what they say"

IC is a voice you can trust.  And as a paranoid town member that is invaluable.

[SpaceAnemone]

faust managed to make himself an IC, which is a pretty impressive feat in this setup. And he went so many nights without being killed.

If you want to look at townies who did an impressive job, EFHW subbed into the game (which is never easy), used her PR really well, and kept a calm and level head throughout.

[EFHW]

Thanks Space

[EFHW]

I already asked this in the speccy, but is there any way we would have lynched MiX for being sk, assuming enough of us were convinced?

[EFHW]

faust managed to make himself an IC, which is a pretty impressive feat in this setup. And he went so many nights without being killed.

faust's ICness was wasted by him having...well...really bad reads.

I disagree that a good IC must have good reads.  Like, of course it's better if the IC is also clairvoyant.  But it's town who screws themselves (with scum help) when everybody says "well, XXX is the IC, so we have to do exactly what they say"

IC is a voice you can trust.  And as a paranoid town member that is invaluable.

This.

[WestCoastDidds]

I already asked this in the speccy, but is there any way we would have lynched MiX for being sk, assuming enough of us were convinced?

I thought he was SK for the last couple of days, but it was all vague sense stuff. I’m not sure I could have made an argument that would have swayed anyone but Raerae.

[raerae]

I already asked this in the speccy, but is there any way we would have lynched MiX for being sk, assuming enough of us were convinced?

I thought he was SK for the last couple of days, but it was all vague sense stuff. I’m not sure I could have made an argument that would have swayed anyone but Raerae.

Yeah, I flubbed that with the tie in to shraeye.  I think that was the hang up that most people had with my argument.  (Maybe?  I might just be awful at convincing people of things.)

[ashersky]

My QT: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/rFk3vK6R7ytLX
Maquis: https://quicktopic.com/52/H/srKdhmWwEPP

Did anyone notice I never once used the word Maquis (or MU) in my posts?

Just out of curiosity, did you think I believed your claim?

Not particularly. I think you felt I was never your favorite lynch and I just gave you some extra public reasons.

[EFHW]

I already asked this in the speccy, but is there any way we would have lynched MiX for being sk, assuming enough of us were convinced?

I thought he was SK for the last couple of days, but it was all vague sense stuff. I’m not sure I could have made an argument that would have swayed anyone but Raerae.

Yeah, I flubbed that with the tie in to shraeye.  I think that was the hang up that most people had with my argument.  (Maybe?  I might just be awful at convincing people of things.)

But what if we had agreed? When I suggested that he was SK, it seemed like most people thought we had other priorities.

[EFHW]

And maybe we did. A buff for sk built in to setup.

[WestCoastDidds]

I hope the everything with Umbrage is okay. I have been worried about him.

[jotheonah]

I'm officially calling it-- ash MVP.

[MiX]

I'm officially calling it-- ash MVP.

Finally, now I can put this game behind me. Thank you.

[jotheonah]

Shamelessly posting here that Unfortunate Events signups are here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19658.0

We need 4 more friends!