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[shraeye]

Chickenwarlord jumps on next. Expresses a scumread on Robz. I'd like to hear more about that, since most of the people on the wagon seem to be just trying to get a lynch, any lynch.

tl;dr- I don't think the people at the end of this wagon are as scummy as the people who made it the wagon. Don't get me wrong, people at the end of the wagon could still be scum, the need to get a lynch is good cover. But I would bet there's scum somewhere in UoS, Space, chicken, and maybe DatSwan. Those were the people who had the opportunity, realistically, to steer the lynch elsewhere.

I'm a little suspicious of Didds now. Her explanation for voting Robz doesn't make much sense on the surface. Here:

vote: Robz

I am committeed to a lynch.  I am willing to vote for LL, Robz, or Asher.  I won't vote for Jimmmm today.

Like, if you're committed to a lynch, why not stay on LaLight at that point? Why leave a viable wagon for one with one other person on it.

Hopefully this is helpful to somebody.

I found this helpful, and I'm snipping the pieces that stand out to me the most.  I too am very interested in a deeper explanation from chicken.  Coming out of nowhere and coincidentally having a scumread on the building wagon.

Also Didds, I thought that was weird at the time; I thought the LaLight wagon had real potential.  However people fell off of it quickly, and especially that Didds fell off while saying "I just want a lynch to go through".   That smelled off.

[shraeye]

didn't read it all but I agree with didds being suspicious, her vote was reeeeally weird

Not weird, just not good. Pretty much all of my choices were related low inactivity, and were obvi wrong. Robz should have claimed, there was plenty of time for us to find a better lynch had he didn’t so. But I will fully admit that I was just trying to be helpful. I left LL when enough folks said it wasn’t fair to lynch him with no internet access, etc, so while I’m on Robz early it’s because he seemed viable based on the talk even if it wants yet about votes. And I wasn’t moving to Jimmm.

Glooble, thanks for the work.

Vote: Eddie because that jumping around is crazy more strange than not.

LL, you’ll be missed. Hey, EFHW! Thanks for joining.

Ok, that actually clears things up better for me.  Cancel my last point, carry on.

[shraeye]

As I said previously, I always jump around a lot as town and then get called scum for doing so. I refuse to accept inevitabilities and think it is much more informative if people treat days as if multiple options exist rather than it being an inevitability that someone will be lynched. Treating things as if they are inevitable is a strong play for scum to mislynch without fear.

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

Vote: Space

Really curious about what's driving those eyebrows?  Vote analysis? day-end stuff? rereading Day1?

[shraeye]

The rest are fine, but I have a feeling e needs to be there, just because of how he NEVER moved from Robz, ever ever ever, even when LL and Space wagons were being viable...

Why do you think this is scummy?

Mostly because his stubborness worked. I assume scum can make wagons push harder since they have 3 votes instead of 1, e pushing Robz all day and succeding might've been due to that. It's incredibly weak but at least it's based on evidence. I'm been procrastinating so I haven't done any (after N1 flips) rereading...sorry about that.

If my *unstellar* performance in M121 is any indication, stubbornness is not exclusively a scumtrait.  I'm hardly sure it's a scum-trait at all.

[Uncleeurope]

As I said previously, I always jump around a lot as town and then get called scum for doing so. I refuse to accept inevitabilities and think it is much more informative if people treat days as if multiple options exist rather than it being an inevitability that someone will be lynched. Treating things as if they are inevitable is a strong play for scum to mislynch without fear.

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

Vote: Space

Really curious about what's driving those eyebrows?  Vote analysis? day-end stuff? rereading Day1?

Space: Decided Robz was the best person to die despite a softish town read and didn’t mind that a lynch was heading in that direction.

WCD: seemed like the most opportunistic of the early voters for Robz.

Raerae: involvement was low and the aggressive question-asking and general persuasive nature that had me convinced she was town last game (bias aside, although read into hat what you will)

LL: posted a whole lot of nothing, and yes, not having time was definitely a factor, but that reads most obviously took time and the results are questionable.

Honestly I am less certain on raerae sight the unfolding of today, and am now much more interested in the people who haven’t talked today. Or the people who have but have said nothing.

Snow came in to argue a point with MiX then left. He didn’t try and add anything new, just walk someone through a point. That’s unlike him (not the skiing someone through a point, but the not adding anything new bit).

[shraeye]

Progress! I was rereading raerae, when I found this...

Robz, can't defend against that, I really haven't done much this game, it's big and intimidating and most of the conversation has been setup so I commented when I had something to say but was definitely content to sit back and wait until it progressed to something I can chime in on. Like today. This is the stuff I get and so I'm talking now.

But she meant to reply to me. Is this useful?

Anyway, she spends D1 interacting with shraeye, me and a little bit of faust. Or at least most of what she said was to or about one of these 3 players...In M121 she also did that, but much, much less (she still interacted more with me and shraeye but more with other players, relatively). So...@raerae, was this intentional?

Rereading takes so much effort...with all of this I basically determined raerae did nothing D1 other than talk to 3 people. Great. Is this towny or scummy? I'm leaning on the scummy side, but I don't know...

What is scummy is her complete lack of reads, she was only voting because faust "convinced" her, which means she doesn't even need to explain why her vote was there (not like I blame people finding Jimmmmmmmmm scummy, since I did). Unless you count her ash vote, which was the only thing she did out of her own initiative (at least from what I'm seeing) which is...sheeping shraeye and OMGUS. It's not looking good for her, I think I like this case more than the one I made for Space. At least she admits it? But then she just sheeps faust.

@raerae, what was your reason to vote Jimmmmmm?

Well, Vote: raerae because I feel like I'm being unfair to Space...but FoS: Space for, well, what I said before.

Is there anything setup related that's good to discuss now? I was going to bring up things related to the IC but...yeah. So not sure what to say. I've asked my share of questions and reread my share of rereads, I'll lay low for now.

What do you mean I meant to reply to you?  I was responding to Robz, that's why I said "Robz."  Also, it was D1 in an 18 player game and I very clearly said I had no reasonable reads.  Why are you trying to make this out like something I was trying to hide or minimize?  Also, when did I sheep shraeye?  And my vote on Ash wasn't OMGUS, I think his reason for voting for me was scummy as hell and made no sense.  Basically everything in your "case" is wrong, are you just hoping people will trust you and won't reread or did you really accidentally get that much stuff wrong?

Yeah, this case feels like a big non-case.  Raerae does not get excited about a ton of setup talk, which is why she wasn't engaging while people were picking through the finer points of who should do what, and how we can all make double-scum reads at the end of the day for maximal nightaction WIFOM....she said so, and it matches reality.  No scumminess for that.

Her activity picked up when people actually started talking about reads/lynches/lurking and all that.  Selling her vote to faust; might be silly, but still seems in-line with raerae being raerae to me.

Regarding this:

You were sheeping shraeye when you voted for ash, right? Let me look at it again...

So how does that makes me an informative lynch for town?  You're proposing a lynch of somebody who's few interactions are with somebody you have a townread on.  That seems exceedingly unhelpful to town.

So, okay, you weren't sheeping shraeye...but who else was on him? And this is definitely OMGUS, your vote is entirely dependant on knowing that you're town, lynching someone who doesn't have a lot of interactions isn't scummy, it's just necessary sometimes. But we went over this in D1...and you didn't address it. Well I think you lost your scumread on ash, but you didn't say why, not like it matters.

You know sheeping and OMGUS are two different things right; both are "you are voting AAA only because..." so really can't exist at the same time.  Yes, she voted for ash after me.  That doesn't automatically mean she sheeped.

[shraeye]

Important question to MiX:

Did you find Robz scummy yesterday? Why did you announce intent to hammer?

[shraeye]

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

This is also exactly the set of players who admitted to having been bothered by the conflict discussion yesterday. Have you considered whether you might be reading conflict aversion or other non-masculine behaviours as scummy given that you yourself might be looking at the game from a slightly more masculine perspective?

Now that EFHW has replaced LL, I think there are more non-males playing now than in any other f.ds mafia game I've seen.

Hey, I was also bothered by it.  And Jimmmm.  Surely others, but I recall at least both of us mentioned stuff.  I would chalk this up to crazy coincidence, rather than reading conflict-aversion as scummy.

[shraeye]

On to today, Space is suspicious, WCD, raerae, and LL are eyebrow raisers for me.

This is also exactly the set of players who admitted to having been bothered by the conflict discussion yesterday. Have you considered whether you might be reading conflict aversion or other non-masculine behaviours as scummy given that you yourself might be looking at the game from a slightly more masculine perspective?

Now that EFHW has replaced LL, I think there are more non-males playing now than in any other f.ds mafia game I've seen.

Hey, I was also bothered by it.  And Jimmmm.  Surely others, but I recall at least both of us mentioned stuff.  I would chalk this up to crazy coincidence, rather than reading conflict-aversion as scummy.

And this post does charge the atmosphere a bit; I can see where the post comes from, but I empathize with Uncle's reaction to it.  I think it does Uncle a disservice to imply that his opinions are because of his masculinity, I don't read anything particularly aggressive or even gendered in any of Uncle's posts.

[shraeye]

I've been reading for over an hour, still only at 661. Tomorrow I'll skip ahead to eod1 and catch up on day 2.

I appreciate the thorough reread!

[shraeye]

I don't see why you would have to be honest with your reason to vote for people if you're scum, thus I see no reason to believe if a vote was OMGUS or not based on what you say. Right? Am I being confusing here? Not that you gain anything by lying, but you're always lying when voting as scum anyway and this is no different.

If you read her explanation and immediately discard it because she's lying scum, then you're probably going to have to explain to the rest of the thread why you are so sure she's scum.  And it's not because of an OMGUS vote, because you made that conclusion BASED on the fact that you know she's scum.

This reasoning is backward, and smells like a very fake read.  "Make a decision first, find the evidence later"

I have to
Vobe: DatSwan
first, to fulfill my contractual obligation.

Then I'll
vote: MiX

[faust]

Vote: Awaclus

[2.71828.....]

Lots of long posts with lots of words that I will have to read sometime. Unfortunately I am pretty busy this week and probably won't have a ton of time to do so.

I do want to look at the D1 wagon and NKs myself still though

[faust]

I also think that picking apart the minutiae of MiX's posts is an easy way for scum to create interactions without providing much content. UoS and raerae stand out as the main culprits.

[faust]

And it is almost comical how raerae and shraeye are rehashing the exact same reads the had last game.

[Chickenwarlord]

Now something unrelated: @chicken, why, exactly, did you scumread Robz? Did you ever say that? I don't see it...

I don't believe I ever posted my reasoning, but straight out the gate he with absolutely no supporting logic voted for me, which might have evoked a mild emotional reaction - I think I'd made 2 posts at that point and he hadn't made almost any either. At that point in time, we were two of the least active players in the game and it seemed that he was trying to draw attention away from himself just by pointing it at me.
But mostly what egged me to my final vote was

I love all the people dancing around with the idea of voting Robz but not doing it.

Same.

and Robz's own

Space, move your vote to someone who is actually getting lynched maybe.

Perhaps I scumread the shoving a vote my way a bit too much but at the time it was
A: a bandwagon that actually had support
B: my first and initial scumtrigger

[faust]

Chickenwarlord, can you tell me what your top scumreads are right now?

Also, what do you want to be your nickname? Chicken sounds a little... insulting maybe, is that fine for you? We could also do CWL I guess.

[ashersky]

EBWOP: So do Ashersky's commas.

What is wrong with me?

Much like my supposed use of two commas, this is a UoS scumtell.

[ashersky]

Also, just catching up.

[faust]

I don’t really know what you mean, you may be viewing this game using masculine/feminine, but I am not. I am basing my reads on activity and content. Implying that I lack empathy/discernment helps nothing.

I think ignoring whatever outside biases you may have makes you worse at this game. If you come up with a scum list and all of the people on it share a certain non game-related characteristic - and it does not matter whether this is gender, age, activity level, native language or something else - then you should absolutely critically evaluate whether there is a bias that makes you scumread this particular set of players. This has not so much to do with identity politics as it has with being a good player. I don't think Space ever meant to imply that you lack empathy and don't see where you got that impression.

We all have biases - funnily enough I think Space's read on MiX is heavily influenced by non-game related bias.

[Chickenwarlord]

Chickenwarlord, can you tell me what your top scumreads are right now?

Also, what do you want to be your nickname? Chicken sounds a little... insulting maybe, is that fine for you? We could also do CWL I guess.

Chicken is fine as a nickname.

Given how poorly I read yesterday, I'm far from qualified to be making scumreads- but my suspicions have definitely shifted to Awaclus and possibly Space.

[faust]

If you look at the Robz wagon, I think the point of no return was when Awaclus voted. This is exemplified here:

Datswan votes for Robz because he doesn't want his vote to go to waste and he doesn't want to lynch Space.

Awaclus jumps on.

I don't want to lynch Space either and it's looking unlikely anything else is going to pick up steam so I jump on too.

Glooble clearly felt that after Awaclus's vote, there was no way for an alternate wagon to succeed. DatSwan is up there too, epsecially because he made it clear that his vote was final, but I really think Awaclus drove this mislynch home. So, we should all be voting Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

The mislynch was already driven home before I voted.

[faust]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

[Awaclus]

Awaclus, why should I think that you are town?

Well, there are only weak reasons so far but I did some scumhunting yesterday and participated in getting the lynch through.