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[Uncleeurope]

Oh, thanks for the personal attacks, Eddie. And a mean nickname to boot. Yeah, that’s awesome. Cool.

None of that was meant to be personal attacks, I very much enjoy my games with you included. And the nickname was also meant to be playful as well.

Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

[WestCoastDidds]

How is it that I am simultaneously contentless, have no unique opinions, and manipulative? I’m not sure that someone so utterly useless could manipulate anything at all.

I cite the people I’m drawing from not as cover, but to provide a sense of where I’m coming from. It’s also a way for me to keep up with what what various folks are doing and who I think is standing on my side of the room.

I do not project confidence when I am not confident. That’s not waffling, that’s the reality of a big, complicated game and being open to evolving positions. So, pretty much you think I’m scummy because I am not confident about my position in a game where half the people are lying. That seems awfully towny to me. I find the overconfidence of others far more telling than not.

I share way more of my thought process than most people do, even when my conclusions are tenuous. I do not and have not waffled when I vote. faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote. That is not waffling or stubborness, it’s actually being thoughtful. I talk about who else I would or would not vote for, but I also think carefully about what a vote would mean. So, for example, I didn’t move my vote to e when faust was questioning me because I believe L-2 is a dangerous place to be until we are ready to lynch. I think chicken is a better vote, for now, but feel okay about an e vote, too. A list of two or three is not a list of 12.

What do you mean that I say you are suspicious and do nothing about it? I’ve voted for you and will again if the tides turn that way. I don’t think that time is now. But you are on my short list, I’ve made no bones about that. Yes, I’m open to lynching you in the future. That is not hidden information. That’s not a case against me. It being annoyed with me and/or my list.

Why would you want me to move my vote off chicken? Are you looking to protect him? Between you and faust, this is looking like a super sketching gambit.

[Uncleeurope]

No, I’m not trying to protect chicken, I was one of the first people to start poking at chicken to begin with IIRC.

That being said I like your post.

[faust]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

[WestCoastDidds]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

My preference is for a lynch. I’m voting for chicken and have been for awhile. So, at present he’s my preference but I can’t say that I feel strongly about it. (My thoughts about him have lots of “seems” and “feels”) If there is no critical mass there in the next 20 hours, then e or MiX. I can’t really see voting for someone outside that list today.

[MiX]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

My preference is for a lynch. I’m voting for chicken and have been for awhile. So, at present he’s my preference but I can’t say that I feel strongly about it. (My thoughts about him have lots of “seems” and “feels”) If there is no critical mass there in the next 20 hours, then e or MiX. I can’t really see voting for someone outside that list today.

What's your chicken case? I could move there, but it would really be for self-defense, I'm pretty sure e's scummier than him and much more likely to flip Maquis; I just don't see chicken doing no interaction with his partner.

[raerae]

Reread shraeye D2 because of people saying that shraeye was pushing the MiX lynch all day and this is what I found.

Original vote here:

He then spends a fair amount of time pushing Awaclus buttons, says Glooble is a townread (didn't somebody say he had suspicion of Glooble but couldn't get the lynch through??),

My scale is severely tipped towards scum; glooble and Uncle are my two singular townreads. 

and then finally votes Awaclus here.  But then he never addresses MiX as scum again until EOD where he revotes MiX (below).  So, no, he didn't push his lynch all day, he barely even bumped it, he would vote for MiX and then walk away.  He never tried to make a MiX lynch happen, he voted for him, sure, but he never pushed for his lynch and never tried to get anybody else on board, never even questioned anybody on their MiX reads.

What that mini-reread of D2 made me realize is that faust actually thinks Awaclus' vote on Robz is scummy because it locked in the lynch...which is just weird.

That's literally exactly what you did (blame the person who locked in the Robz vote) except you think that belongs to a different person.  This is THE MOST opportunistic shift I could imagine.  Like, you just rewrote the book on scum-deflection/fake-reason-giving.

Vote: Mix

 

[raerae]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

Wasn't your mantra last game that individual players get to decide when to answer questions directed at them?  I specifically remember you calling me out for having scumreads for failure to answer questions.  Why do you feel differently this game?

[faust]

faust was questioning my e vs. chicken thought process and seemed to get annoyed that I wouldn’t move my vote.

I am not annoyed that you don't change your vote, I am annoyed that you refuse to answer my question.

Wasn't your mantra last game that individual players get to decide when to answer questions directed at them?  I specifically remember you calling me out for having scumreads for failure to answer questions.  Why do you feel differently this game?

It's fine for me if people don't want to answer questions, but then they should say so.

[faust]

Vote: e

[MiX]

Ew, raerae's right, shraeye gunned Awaclus much more than me. Oh well.

Who was townreading me in D2? E, right? So your argument for "shraeye didn't convince anyone that MiX was scummy" could very well be "shraeye didn't want E to jump on the MiX wagon" which is obviously a partner tell. But surely someone else townread me, right? I'll do a reread of D2 and come back with findings.

[SpaceAnemone]

Currently doing some thinking and re-reading, but I thought I'd share this: it's the complement of my other list: this time I'm listing each living player, and all the other players (alive or dead) for whom they've voted.

UmbrageOfSnow (4): EFHW, MiX, faust, Robz888
EFHW (3): UmbrageOfSnow, Glooble, 2.71828.....
DatSwan (5): faust, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord
WestCoastDidds (7): EFHW, MiX, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord
SpaceAnemone (5): MiX, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope
MiX (12): Jimmmmm, EFHW, DatSwan, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, faust, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae, Chickenwarlord
faust (8): Jimmmmm, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, raerae
ashersky (7): UmbrageOfSnow, MiX, faust, Robz888, Awaclus, raerae, Chickenwarlord
2.71828..... (7): EFHW, DatSwan, faust, Robz888, Awaclus, Uncleeurope, Chickenwarlord
Uncleeurope (13): Jimmmmm, UmbrageOfSnow, EFHW, Glooble, WestCoastDidds, SpaceAnemone, MiX, faust, 2.71828....., Robz888, Awaclus, raerae, Chickenwarlord
raerae (7): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, Shraeye, MiX, faust, ashersky, raerae
Chickenwarlord (3): MiX, Robz888, Awaclus

[Uncleeurope]

Guys, I think I’m winning.

[faust]

Guys, I think I’m winning.

Already missed out on mcmc and shraeye though. You should go grab DatSwan while you still can.

[EFHW]

vote: e. I won't be on at deadline.

[WestCoastDidds]

Deadline is tomorrow at noon?

I should be around, but I’m out for the rest of the evening.

[MiX]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

[raerae]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

[MiX]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

No one else was townreading me, so there wasn't really an opportunity for shraeye to say I'm scummy.

[raerae]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

No one else was townreading me, so there wasn't really an opportunity for shraeye to say I'm scummy.

There was lots of opportunity, there were plenty of people not voting for you.

[MiX]

A quick reread on D2 tells me literally no one was townreading me other than E. Which means I was right, shraeye not telling E to scumread me could be a partner tell. Or not, I wouldn't put too much into this. But I think it removes that part from raerae's case on me.

I'm available at deadline. Who else?

Why single out e?  shraeye didn't tell anybody to scumread you. 

No one else was townreading me, so there wasn't really an opportunity for shraeye to say I'm scummy.

There was lots of opportunity, there were plenty of people not voting for you.

I guess...but those people were mostly voting Awaclus, so shraeye had no reason to persuade them. Which also applies to E, so there goes my very very very weak extra case on E.

[SpaceAnemone]

Space/MiX, could you two summarize the e case for me?

Basically, I think at least one of e and EFHW are probably scum, and e hasn't done anything that makes me think it's not him, while EFHW has at least been asking quite a few questions about people's motivations lately. It's not the strongest town tell, but I'll take an active engaged player over a lurky scummy one. (And there's definitely a non-zero chance they're both scum anyway).

I first posted about the D1 e wagon at #1014, and sometime later e used that as a reason to try re-reading WCD, who I still think is being quite solidly townie. Since D1, Awaclus has also flipped town (see updated wagon-analysis post at #1447). Also, WCD was only on the wagon for part of the relatively long time that it was a stable wagon, so I think the greatest suspicion has to be on e, or on EFHW, who is the only non-flipped person other than WCD who was on the wagon.

Finally, faust puts forward a good collection of points at #1633 as an e case. I wasn't necessarily motivated by trying to find only people who're likely Shraeye partners, so I didn't really look at it exactly the same way as faust, but I agree that making a point of not having read the setup and the way in which he hammered Awaclus look like they're for show to deflect kills from him, for instance. Also this:

One thing, you can call me scum (and be incorrect) just don't call me scum on the same team as shraeye.

Classic "You're finding me scummy for the wrong reasons!"

-- not super-strong evidence by any stretch of the imagination, but it was the first thing I thought when I read what e had written too.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'll be awake and at a computer in the run-up to deadline, but I'll also be at work, so not really paying attention beyond lunch break, which for me is about 2.5 hours before deadline.

I like the e wagon, but if it ends up being a no-go, MiX is another strong choice. I'm quite meh on Chicken. I'd also consider a wagon on Eddie, because I still don't find him townie, though last time I tried going there the only person to join me was e, which I should think more about.

[SpaceAnemone]

I am suspicious Space's defense of MiX but I can't exactly put my finger on why right at this second (phones are great and terrible all at the same time).

Did you mean Space?  Did I miss this post?

Pretty sure I did and pretty sure there were two. I'll see what I can find in the bigger am hours.

Did you ever talk about this again? Sure shraeye died but the confusion stands.

What are you feeling confused about, exactly?

@MiX, I'm still interested in reading your response to what you thought the confusion was here, and why it was relevant to dredge it up again at this point.

[Swowl]

Here and will be here until deadline. Been reading along - have a few things i want to post when i get home.. but honestly not much has changed since last i checked in since everything has been kind of circular.