Welcome to MXXXIII: Toy Story Mafia, [player name]! You are Big Al, a Fire Mafia goon with your partner, Stinky Pete.
Each night, you may talk with your teammate here: {quicktopic}
Each night, one of you or your teammate can perform the Factional Kill. If you target the same person as the Ice mafia, the kills will cancel out.
Your fake flavorclaim is [insert flavor name].
You win when there are only Fire mafia left, or nothing can stop this from happening.
Welcome to MXXXIII: Toy Story Mafia, [player name]! You are Lots o' Huggin Bear, an Ice Mafia goon with your partner, Big Baby.
Each night, you may talk with your teammate here: {quicktopic}
Each night, one of you or your teammate can perform the Factional Kill. If you target the same person as the Fire mafia, the kills will cancel out.
Your fake flavorclaim is: [insert flavor name]
You win when there are only Ice mafia left alive, or nothing can stop this from happening.
Welcome to MXXXIII: Toy Story Mafia, [player name]! You are Andy, a Town Toy Fixer!
Each night, you may choose 1 player. That player will be protected from any and all kills that night.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least 1 town-aligned player alive.
Welcome to MXXXIII: Toy Story Mafia, [player name]! You are [flavor name here], a Vanilla Townie!
You have no night actions. Your weapon is your vote. Use it wisely.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least 1 town-aligned player is alive.
I would be interested in co-modding (I haven't modded before, so that woudl be fun)You're in!
To /infinity...and beyond!!FIFY
I would suggest that the two scumteams "tie". so both get half the value of a win. To do that just add a clause to scum wincons that say they draw with the other team if everyone dies, and add a clause in the town wincon that says they need at least 1 member still alive to win.
another option is to make both win, but that makes things a bit odd. plus, yuma will kill you because it messes up stats, and I agree with that.
wait, so what DO you want?I would suggest that the two scumteams "tie". so both get half the value of a win. To do that just add a clause to scum wincons that say they draw with the other team if everyone dies, and add a clause in the town wincon that says they need at least 1 member still alive to win.
another option is to make both win, but that makes things a bit odd. plus, yuma will kill you because it messes up stats, and I agree with that.
actually I prefer the later option. Giving both teams a "true" win is simpler than making a new "tie" category.
And I do agree that having town win when all townies are dead isn't ideal. But ultimately that is up to mail-mi and should be clarified before game start so that we can be sure.
You win when the other mafia team is eliminated and you control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
I really don't want this incentive for the mafias to win together (because the other team must be eliminated) but I don't want town to win then either. This might make you mad, Yuma, but yes, the teams will tie and get half a win.I would suggest that the two scumteams "tie". so both get half the value of a win. To do that just add a clause to scum wincons that say they draw with the other team if everyone dies, and add a clause in the town wincon that says they need at least 1 member still alive to win.
another option is to make both win, but that makes things a bit odd. plus, yuma will kill you because it messes up stats, and I agree with that.
actually I prefer the later option. Giving both teams a "true" win is simpler than making a new "tie" category.
And I do agree that having town win when all townies are dead isn't ideal. But ultimately that is up to mail-mi and should be clarified before game start so that we can be sure.
The mafiascum page has the following win conditions so I am guessing that the changes mail-mi made were deliberate:THey weren't. I'll change them nowQuoteYou win when the other mafia team is eliminated and you control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.QuoteYou win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
wait, so what DO you want?I would suggest that the two scumteams "tie". so both get half the value of a win. To do that just add a clause to scum wincons that say they draw with the other team if everyone dies, and add a clause in the town wincon that says they need at least 1 member still alive to win.
another option is to make both win, but that makes things a bit odd. plus, yuma will kill you because it messes up stats, and I agree with that.
actually I prefer the later option. Giving both teams a "true" win is simpler than making a new "tie" category.
And I do agree that having town win when all townies are dead isn't ideal. But ultimately that is up to mail-mi and should be clarified before game start so that we can be sure.
Usually I think of results of games like this:
- A win is "worth" 1
- A loss is "worth" 0
- A tie is "worth" 1/n where n is the number of tied factions/teams/players
that way exactly 1 "point" is awarded every game, it makes things easier to figure out, game-theory wise. and no, when town wins, I think of it like the town, as a collective single player, gets the 1 point.
but yes, completely up to mail-mi.
I really don't want this incentive for the mafias to win together (because the other team must be eliminated) but I don't want town to win then either. This might make you mad, Yuma, but yes, the teams will tie and get half a win.I would suggest that the two scumteams "tie". so both get half the value of a win. To do that just add a clause to scum wincons that say they draw with the other team if everyone dies, and add a clause in the town wincon that says they need at least 1 member still alive to win.
another option is to make both win, but that makes things a bit odd. plus, yuma will kill you because it messes up stats, and I agree with that.
actually I prefer the later option. Giving both teams a "true" win is simpler than making a new "tie" category.
And I do agree that having town win when all townies are dead isn't ideal. But ultimately that is up to mail-mi and should be clarified before game start so that we can be sure.
If the community would like to come up with a default then I will gladly use it.
--If players from two or more non-Town factions exist, and are alive in an end-game scenario, a "Happily Ever After Win" will be awarded to those factions only.
fire and ice have a truce???
Should the scum PMs have the player name of the teammate?That'll be in the QT, and if they can't access it, they can just PM me and I'll tell them
I agree with yuma. This is a representation of murder and mayhem, right? No half-wins.You see, the thing I'm scared about is what almost happened at the end of WWTWDP: Yuma the SK was like "Hey mafia, let's have a truce and kill off mail-mi and nkirbit and win together!" I don't want that to happen. But I don't want town to win, and I don't want it to be "Everyone loses!". I think I'll do something with the flavor names.
I think of a shared victory as a truce between the bad guys. So they both win. But no half-wins.
I agree with yuma. This is a representation of murder and mayhem, right? No half-wins.You see, the thing I'm scared about is what almost happened at the end of WWTWDP: Yuma the SK was like "Hey mafia, let's have a truce and kill off mail-mi and nkirbit and win together!" I don't want that to happen. But I don't want town to win, and I don't want it to be "Everyone loses!". I think I'll do something with the flavor names.
I think of a shared victory as a truce between the bad guys. So they both win. But no half-wins.
Check the second post.I agree with yuma. This is a representation of murder and mayhem, right? No half-wins.You see, the thing I'm scared about is what almost happened at the end of WWTWDP: Yuma the SK was like "Hey mafia, let's have a truce and kill off mail-mi and nkirbit and win together!" I don't want that to happen. But I don't want town to win, and I don't want it to be "Everyone loses!". I think I'll do something with the flavor names.
I think of a shared victory as a truce between the bad guys. So they both win. But no half-wins.
That is a valid concern. If you think about it generally each faction has a 33% chance of winning. What ashersky and I are suggesting basically gives fire and ice a ~35% chance each and town only a 30% chance. percentages are just kinda made up there. But if you allow town to win that would give town a 36% chance and fire and ice only 32% each. So I guess there has to be some give and take.
So many the question is thus: who has the advantage if things are left alone. Does town really have a 33% chance of winning? Or is it actually closer to 40%. If so, giving scum the change to win together might even things out... Or does town have more like a 30% chance. Then maybe town needs a buff to compensate for mafia's chance to win together?
Make sense?
Or maybe the best route to go is the 0.5 win.
Ideally it won't matter, but there is a chance it might.
-If there are only 1 Ice mafia goon and 1 Fire mafia goon left alive at the end of the game, this is what will happen:
If it's Big Baby and Big Al, Fire mafia wins.
If it's Big Baby and Stinky Pete, Ice mafia wins.
If it's Lot's O' Huggin' Bear and Big Al, Ice mafia wins
If it's Lot's O' Huggin' Bear and Stinky Pete, Fire mafia wins.
One other point I wanted to suggest for this game was to suggest randomize the VT and "fake claim" flavor.I did this already.
That is to say give Mafia the same chance of receiving "woody" or "Buzz Lightyear" as any other townie. Otherwise players that claim more minor characters "potato head" or "slinky dog" are going to be more suspicious than players that would claim "buzz" or "woody."
whaaaat? no. You know your percentages are off because they add up to 100%. If two wins can be awarded, that means that the percentages will not add up to 100, they will be over 100.I agree with yuma. This is a representation of murder and mayhem, right? No half-wins.You see, the thing I'm scared about is what almost happened at the end of WWTWDP: Yuma the SK was like "Hey mafia, let's have a truce and kill off mail-mi and nkirbit and win together!" I don't want that to happen. But I don't want town to win, and I don't want it to be "Everyone loses!". I think I'll do something with the flavor names.
I think of a shared victory as a truce between the bad guys. So they both win. But no half-wins.
That is a valid concern. If you think about it generally each faction has a 33% chance of winning. What ashersky and I are suggesting basically gives fire and ice a ~35% chance each and town only a 30% chance. percentages are just kinda made up there. But if you allow town to win that would give town a 36% chance and fire and ice only 32% each. So I guess there has to be some give and take.
So many the question is thus: who has the advantage if things are left alone. Does town really have a 33% chance of winning? Or is it actually closer to 40%. If so, giving scum the change to win together might even things out... Or does town have more like a 30% chance. Then maybe town needs a buff to compensate for mafia's chance to win together?
Make sense?
Or maybe the best route to go is the 0.5 win.
Ideally it won't matter, but there is a chance it might.
/in. Says newbi-friendly, and that is good because that is what I am. I have played mafia with some other people once or twice, but this will be my first experience on the forum.(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130906112315/glee/images/b/ba/YAY_GIF_by_davitodd.gif)
/in. Says newbi-friendly, and that is good because that is what I am. I have played mafia with some other people once or twice, but this will be my first experience on the forum.
/in. Says newbi-friendly, and that is good because that is what I am. I have played mafia with some other people once or twice, but this will be my first experience on the forum.
/in. Says newbi-friendly, and that is good because that is what I am. I have played mafia with some other people once or twice, but this will be my first experience on the forum.
/in. Says newbi-friendly, and that is good because that is what I am. I have played mafia with some other people once or twice, but this will be my first experience on the forum.
I assume Vote: e works?
/in. Says newbi-friendly, and that is good because that is what I am. I have played mafia with some other people once or twice, but this will be my first experience on the forum.
I assume Vote: e works?
One of those will probably be over by Nov. 8./in. Says newbi-friendly, and that is good because that is what I am. I have played mafia with some other people once or twice, but this will be my first experience on the forum.
I assume Vote: e works?
It had better!
A reminder I can't commit to my /in unless one of DW or RMM9 is over or in super-late stages. 2 games at once is pushing it, I really can't do 3.
Is this definitely not starting until after November 8? If so, I may join Hangman Semi-blitz in the meantime. (I'll still stay /in here)It will start either right before it or sometime after so Jimmmmm and Gveoniz can play.
Is this definitely not starting until after November 8? If so, I may join Hangman Semi-blitz in the meantime. (I'll still stay /in here)It will start either right before it or sometime after so Jimmmmm and Gveoniz can play.
Apparently I can also /in if it starts after November 8. (Exactly 8/11 :), that is when I start to be free enough.)
Apparently I can also /in if it starts after November 8. (Exactly 8/11 :), that is when I start to be free enough.)
Welcome!
Who's hammering?I'm seeing if I can get my friend to.
Who's hammering?I'm seeing if I can get my friend to.
Who's hammering?I'm seeing if I can get my friend to.
Do it. I'm so essited!
Who's hammering?I'm seeing if I can get my friend to.
Do it. I'm so essited!
We're still waiting til Nov. 8
/inhehehe....
/inhehehe....
/in
Hehehe...
/out for me, too. Sorry guys. Still around, but need a break from the playing side.
/out for me, too. Sorry guys. Still around, but need a break from the playing side.
Fine. You can't keep me away from Pixar.
/in if it starts after November 8.
Feel free to start without me if you get numbers before then.
Eh, if it won't start till then, might as well /in. Sorry Jimmmmm.Congratulations, there is still 1 spot left... AND JIMMMMM GETS TO STAY IN!
It looks full to me. :PCuz i put sudgy in. Duh.
Well, I mean, I don't see Jimmmmm on the signup list.It looks full to me. :PCuz i put sudgy in. Duh.
Oh yeah.Well, I mean, I don't see Jimmmmm on the signup list.It looks full to me. :PCuz i put sudgy in. Duh.
/out for now, sorry.
If you want to starts earlier, I can still be in. I should be able to handle this.U sure? If so, I'll start ASAP
Do it.If you want to starts earlier, I can still be in. I should be able to handle this.U sure? If so, I'll start ASAP
/justsendmemypmcat
Okay we'll start as soon as I can make QTs and stuff:( I'd rather wait until the 8th too...
Okay we'll start as soon as I can make QTs and stuff:( I'd rather wait until the 8th too...
Oh boy. Half the reason I joined was because it wasn't starting yet. Oh well...
Well something needs to start. We have one 9-player game going and nothing else.
RMM would be good.
C, but I would prefer to start sooner rather than later. On a scale of 1-10 with option B at 0 and A at 10, I am closer to a 7.5
Okay so I've decided we'll start on Monday. Cool with everyone?+1
Damnit, I wanted fire/ice so badly
/in anyways.
FOS everyone in the game but me. This is lame. Not posting and lurking is unhelpful.
Oh, 8 freaking VTs? Yeesh.
Doctor can claim, force both teams to decide who shoots him, either both or neither. Lives forever?
no, the 3 people claim thing is bad. You can't WIFOM scum. Best case they ignore it and nothing happens. Worst case they get a clue to who the doctor is.Oh, 8 freaking VTs? Yeesh.
Doctor can claim, force both teams to decide who shoots him, either both or neither. Lives forever?
I thought about this and I think it has potential. Risky potential, but potential.
What did you do in a blitz game a while ago where you had 3 people claim the same PR. Would something like that work? I can't remember, I think UoS was there...
Doctor should not claim until D2. IC is useless D1.
Post Count!
ashersky - 5
Everyone else - 0
LALL.
is Gveoniz new too? I know he's been around this forum, but has he played mafia before?
no, the 3 people claim thing is bad. You can't WIFOM scum. Best case they ignore it and nothing happens. Worst case they get a clue to who the doctor is.Oh, 8 freaking VTs? Yeesh.
Doctor can claim, force both teams to decide who shoots him, either both or neither. Lives forever?
I thought about this and I think it has potential. Risky potential, but potential.
What did you do in a blitz game a while ago where you had 3 people claim the same PR. Would something like that work? I can't remember, I think UoS was there...
having the doc claim is also bad. It doesn't accomplish anything. Yes, the doctor becomes IC. The point of ICs is that we can't mislynch them. Well, we can't lynch the doctor anyway because if we try to they will claim. Yes, ICs help lead town too, but this is a minimal advantage.
Do you mind telling me what IC stands for? I looked here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0) but didn't see it. (on the first page at least). I get everything else, and through context I can get the general idea of what you mean by IC, but still it is nice to know explicitly.It stands for Innocent Child. Innocent Child is the role of a player who the mod confirms to be town aligned at the start of the game. While the player doesn't literally become and Innocent Child, the terms is used to refer to anyone who we know to be town for sure. In this case, if the doctor claims we know they are town because if they weren't town the real doctor would contradict them.
Doctor should not claim until D2. IC is useless D1.I don't really get this either. I agree the doc shouldn't claim today, but why is it better tommorow?
a more comprehensive list can be found here (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations).Thanks. I will keep this wiki in mind throughout this game as I develop further questions.
We don't use some of those abbreviations... and that one has the wrong meaning for IC--inexperience challenged
Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
What a way to welcome a new player. Vote for him right away. (although at this point your vote for NHS has about as much significance as ashersky's first post voting for yuma--none)Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
Okay. vote: NHS
Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
Okay. vote: NHS
What a way to welcome a new player. Vote for him right away. (although at this point your vote for NHS has about as much significance as ashersky's first post voting for yuma--none)Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
Okay. vote: NHS
Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
Okay. vote: NHS
Why don't you want to vote a 0-poster with me?
vote: Voltaire
Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
yay! another Utahan.
vote: Voltairevote: voltaire
vote: Voltaire
vote: yumaI don't know, it took you all of 1 hour, 42 minutes, and 22 seconds to vote for four different people. Seems like you know what you are doing.
So, we're in a better spot than normal, given we're hunting a known 4 scum. As town, we don't care if we hit fire or ice scum, so to me, I'm looking for 4 scummy players on D1.
In future days, if we get scum flips, we can think about who's possible partners, etc. but I really think scumhunting on D1 in this game means finding one of four bad guys, and we don't care about partners. That's to say, I think seeing interactions between players isn't a way to catch the bad guys.
I would compare this D1 to Mean Girls D1, actually. You had three scum there who were amazing and brilliant, but didn't even know who their partners were. I would say scumhunt as you would there, with that knowledge.
1) It reduces the lynch pool. Each town player is looking for 4/12 bad guys today. Already nice odds. Each town player that isn't the doctor gets to instead look at 4/11 players, which is better. The doctor gains nothing and is still looking at 4/12, but the overall chances have gone up.1) no it doesn't. We can't lynch the doctor even if he doesn't claim. Worst that happens is that someone mistakenly suspects the doctor.
2) If we have multiple doctor claims, we catch scum.
3) There is WIFOM for the night kill, no matter what scum!liopoil says. It is impossible for either team to know if the other will shoot the doc. They cancel each others' kills. I'd give good odds that the Doctor lives, and possibly saves someone else.
4) The doctor is a weak PR here. Doctors are weak anyway, and no difference here. Let's go worst case: VT lynch today. We go into N1 with 2 kills, each of which have 10 possible kill targets. The doctor needs to choose 1/11 to protect. He has two chances to protect, though. I don't know how to include the odd possibility of both scum teams and doctor all targeting the same person and resulting in a death. No matter what, the doctor can only stop one kill anyway.
Also, no plan. Except someone needs to draw both NKs so that there are no NKs. So, I do have a plan.
What town PR is most likely to get NKed? Maybe they can claim, force wifom, and either not die from two kills or not die because both teams dodge them?
Oh, 8 freaking VTs? Yeesh.
Doctor can claim, force both teams to decide who shoots him, either both or neither. Lives forever?
I believe a doctor claim right away is awesome sauce, and is officially the D1 ashersky plan.
Why? Glad you asked...
1) It reduces the lynch pool. Each town player is looking for 4/12 bad guys today. Already nice odds. Each town player that isn't the doctor gets to instead look at 4/11 players, which is better. The doctor gains nothing and is still looking at 4/12, but the overall chances have gone up.
2) If we have multiple doctor claims, we catch scum.
3) There is WIFOM for the night kill, no matter what scum!liopoil says. It is impossible for either team to know if the other will shoot the doc. They cancel each others' kills. I'd give good odds that the Doctor lives, and possibly saves someone else.
4) The doctor is a weak PR here. Doctors are weak anyway, and no difference here. Let's go worst case: VT lynch today. We go into N1 with 2 kills, each of which have 10 possible kill targets. The doctor needs to choose 1/11 to protect. He has two chances to protect, though. I don't know how to include the odd possibility of both scum teams and doctor all targeting the same person and resulting in a death. No matter what, the doctor can only stop one kill anyway.
So, I think the doctor claiming works well.
(Also, for the new players, my voting pattern up to now has been a textbook example of "RVS.")
(Also, for the new players, my voting pattern up to now has been a textbook example of "RVS.")
ash, why did you post this?
What a way to welcome a new player. Vote for him right away. (although at this point your vote for NHS has about as much significance as ashersky's first post voting for yuma--none)Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
Okay. vote: NHS
vote: Voltairevote: yumaI don't know, it took you all of 1 hour, 42 minutes, and 22 seconds to vote for four different people. Seems like you know what you are doing.
Though, here's a caveat I just thought of: if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on. Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.
So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out. At that point, though, they are marked for death.
Hey all! I hail from the Rocky Mountains - Utah, to be exact. I have little to no mafia experience, so go easy on me. :)
yay! another Utahan.
Oh how I wish I could edit this to say it correctly... Oh wait... I can.
1) It reduces the lynch pool. Each town player is looking for 4/12 bad guys today. Already nice odds. Each town player that isn't the doctor gets to instead look at 4/11 players, which is better. The doctor gains nothing and is still looking at 4/12, but the overall chances have gone up.1) no it doesn't. We can't lynch the doctor even if he doesn't claim. Worst that happens is that someone mistakenly suspects the doctor.
2) If we have multiple doctor claims, we catch scum.
3) There is WIFOM for the night kill, no matter what scum!liopoil says. It is impossible for either team to know if the other will shoot the doc. They cancel each others' kills. I'd give good odds that the Doctor lives, and possibly saves someone else.
4) The doctor is a weak PR here. Doctors are weak anyway, and no difference here. Let's go worst case: VT lynch today. We go into N1 with 2 kills, each of which have 10 possible kill targets. The doctor needs to choose 1/11 to protect. He has two chances to protect, though. I don't know how to include the odd possibility of both scum teams and doctor all targeting the same person and resulting in a death. No matter what, the doctor can only stop one kill anyway.
2) sure, but scum get to choose if they claim or not. If claiming is a bad choice for them, they won't do it.
3) oh sure, there's a bit of a guessing game (WIFOM is the wrong term here I think). And yes, good odds the doctor lives. However, they are worse odd than if he doesn't claim. There is absolutely no way that claiming increases the chance that the doctor lives.
4) doctor is weak, yes. I'd totally be willing to increase the chance that the doctor dies slightly if there was something for town to gain by doing that.
...So I think we agree that the doctor claiming only slightly increases the chance that a weak PR dies. Where we disagree is if town has something to gain by the doctor claiming. I don't think they do.
A weak PR (doctor) gets turned into a much stronger one (IC Doctor).
Imagine it this way, what if there was an Innocent Doctor role in the game? Huge.
A weak PR (doctor) gets turned into a much stronger one (IC Doctor).
Imagine it this way, what if there was an Innocent Doctor role in the game? Huge.
Which is better: an Innocent Doctor who is modconfirmed at the start of the game, or an Innocent Doctor who can be modconfirmed at the time of his choosing?
A weak PR (doctor) gets turned into a much stronger one (IC Doctor).
Imagine it this way, what if there was an Innocent Doctor role in the game? Huge.
Which is better: an Innocent Doctor who is modconfirmed at the start of the game, or an Innocent Doctor who can be modconfirmed at the time of his choosing?
What's more likely? Scum fakeclaiming Doctor at L-1 to force the real doctor to claim before dying, or scum fakeclaiming if we're moving foward with a plan like mine?
I absolutely believe the Doctor claiming now is significantly better for town than trying to run him up to L-1 to get a claim that way.
I absolutely believe the Doctor claiming now is significantly better for town than trying to run him up to L-1 to get a claim that way.
I agree with this statement. But it's a false dichotomy. We aren't "trying to run" the Doctor up to L-1. We're trying to lynch scum.
There are three possible game states going forward:
A) The Doctor claims because he is forced by L-1 pressure
B) The Doctor claims without being forced
C) The Doctor does not claim
I understand A may be preferable to B in certain circumstances. Where I am not convinced is that A being better than B is so much better that it's worth entirely giving up the possibility we are in game state C.
I am usually against these ideas, but I think it has merit this time.
1. It helps scum shoot each other. We want that. I think this is the best part.
2. The doc still won't die, and we have an IC, which is good.
Now, Vote: 2.71828..... because he inflated his post count at the beginning. He even admitted it.
Agree on both counts.no, the 3 people claim thing is bad. You can't WIFOM scum. Best case they ignore it and nothing happens. Worst case they get a clue to who the doctor is.Oh, 8 freaking VTs? Yeesh.
Doctor can claim, force both teams to decide who shoots him, either both or neither. Lives forever?
I thought about this and I think it has potential. Risky potential, but potential.
What did you do in a blitz game a while ago where you had 3 people claim the same PR. Would something like that work? I can't remember, I think UoS was there...
having the doc claim is also bad. It doesn't accomplish anything. Yes, the doctor becomes IC. The point of ICs is that we can't mislynch them. Well, we can't lynch the doctor anyway because if we try to they will claim. Yes, ICs help lead town too, but this is a minimal advantage.
is Gveoniz new too? I know he's been around this forum, but has he played mafia before?
I absolutely believe the Doctor claiming now is significantly better for town than trying to run him up to L-1 to get a claim that way.
I agree with this statement. But it's a false dichotomy. We aren't "trying to run" the Doctor up to L-1. We're trying to lynch scum.
There are three possible game states going forward:
A) The Doctor claims because he is forced by L-1 pressure
B) The Doctor claims without being forced
C) The Doctor does not claim
I understand A may be preferable to B in certain circumstances. Where I am not convinced is that A being better than B is so much better that it's worth entirely giving up the possibility we are in game state C.
I think we disagree on A/B/C.
I think we are currently already in C, and the only available options to take are A and B. We're forced into C UNTIL A or B happen. C isn't a choice, it's the status quo.
We can do either A or B, but not both.
I think they are LESS likely to kill the claimed Doctor than they are to randomly shoot an unclaimed Doctor.
Yup, and everyone opposed to the plan is scum. Out yourselves, scum.
Okay, this is actually a point that makes me want to support the plan. All that talk about "wifom" isn't, because wifom doesn't exist. It's like you are serving scum two cups, one with normal wine and one with poisoned... but they can just choose to ignore you and walk away if they want to.I think they are LESS likely to kill the claimed Doctor than they are to randomly shoot an unclaimed Doctor.
When there are two scumteams alive, yes, I agree. But as soon as one scumteam is dead, the Doctor is next.
I think the doctor claiming plan may be a good idea. Will a scum team target the doctor over someone else? I don't think so, not even if they were sure that he would die. They're basically giving their opposing team a chance to gain an advantage over them (if scum A targets the doctor, they kill a known townie while scum B has the chance to hit one of them).2. Claiming doctor hurts the town later.
Remember, everyone, that if the Doctor claims and becomes IC, he is an IC who is guaranteed to die once one scumteam is dead. This isn't a Role Madness game where there are other unknown power roles out there who can WIFOM scum at night about their kill. Yes, I agree that the opposing scumteams create such a WIFOM and will probably mean a Doctor who claims now won't be nightkilled - for now. But as soon as one scumteam is dead, that WIFOM disappears and nothing can bring it back. And the Doctor is then dead... at just the time (lategame) when his Doctor protection would be most helpful.
The doctor claiming would be us purposefully giving scum information, because we feel the correct move for them would be to help town to hurt the other scum team with it.This may just be because I am new to the game, but I am uncomfortable giving free information to the mafia.
Anakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: [realizing that Anakin is consumed by evil and there's no reasoning with him anymore] Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Yup, and everyone opposed to the plan is scum. Out yourselves, scum.vote: robz
This may just be because I am new to the game, but I am uncomfortable giving free information to the mafia.
btw, Vote: faust
Currently I have a small town read on e, so unvote. Related to that, are there any examples of new players rolling scum with a vet I can go look at?I thought we were in RVS?btw, Vote: faust
Any particular reason for this?
vote: Archetype for showing up, talking theory, and leaving.
I thought we were in RVS?
Quote from: Star WarsAnakin Skywalker: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: [realizing that Anakin is consumed by evil and there's no reasoning with him anymore] Only a Sith deals in absolutes.Yup, and everyone opposed to the plan is scum. Out yourselves, scum.vote: robz
Well, I'm at L-2. That's interesting.
I get your point, Voltaire.
The doc could unwittingly save scum from being NKed. Might be better not to target at all.
Still support claiming.
Well, I'm at L-2. That's interesting.
It sure is. Robz voters, explain yourselves!
I get your point, Voltaire.
The doc could unwittingly save scum from being NKed. Might be better not to target at all.
Still support claiming.
Chances that this happens are really low though. One scum team has to correctly target the other one AND the doc has to choose that target as well. I think targeting is definitely the better choice.
Because I like math: The exact chance that this happens is 2/55 (assuming we kill a VT today, even lower else)
Obi Wan Kenobi was pretty smart. Siths were the mafia of star wars, and Robz's play matches the sith narrative Obi Wan proposed to the dot!Well, I'm at L-2. That's interesting.
It sure is. Robz voters, explain yourselves!
Obi Wan Kenobi was pretty smart. Siths were the mafia of star wars, and Robz's play matches the sith narrative Obi Wan proposed to the dot!Well, I'm at L-2. That's interesting.
It sure is. Robz voters, explain yourselves!
Explanations from Voltgloss and sudgy still needed then. And Voltgloss's is more of an update as he had a reason to start with.You don't even ask for my reason? (I guess using Star Wars to frame a vote does kind of make it RVS) but still....
Oh, ashersky. Sweet, wonderful ashersky. How I have missed you. Seriously.
Whatever your ridiculous plan is, I support it.
Doctor should not claim until D2. IC is useless D1.
I don't know about that, I'm beginning to think ICs are just incredibly strong always. I know from my dealings as scum in M31 and M-(Twisted was IC) that I was getting pretty sick of them.
I fully agree with ash, and think the the Doctor should claim immediately. I am totally convinced that IC is a stronger PR than Doctor anyway, and here the revelation of our IC/Doctor person will create headaches for sucm. I think they are LESS likely to kill the claimed Doctor than they are to randomly shoot an unclaimed Doctor.
Why does this make you want to vote for him more?
(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)
Explanations from Voltgloss and sudgy still needed then. And Voltgloss's is more of an update as he had a reason to start with.You don't even ask for my reason? (I guess using Star Wars to frame a vote does kind of make it RVS) but still....
(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)
Thank you for correcting me. It was unintentional to violate that policy and I won't do it again(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)
It's against Forum Games policy to discuss ongoing games, by the way, so you shouldn't reference this.
Thank you for correcting me. It was unintentional to violate that policy and I won't do it again(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)
It's against Forum Games policy to discuss ongoing games, by the way, so you shouldn't reference this.
I don't see Robz as scum specifically, but I there is not a whole lot of content to his posts, and I just want a little more reasoning behind his absolute claim. If it were purely for lack of discussion I would have voted liopoil, archetype, sudgy, gveoniz, or NHS since they have a combined 9 posts, but Robz made such a bold claim that I want to hear more from him, rather than his agreement with othersExplanations from Voltgloss and sudgy still needed then. And Voltgloss's is more of an update as he had a reason to start with.You don't even ask for my reason? (I guess using Star Wars to frame a vote does kind of make it RVS) but still....
Yes, I was able to puzzle out a reason from your post. I would maintain that Robz is wrong that all scum will oppose Doctor claiming, not that Robz himself is scum. What makes you see it differently?
Though, here's a caveat I just thought of: if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on. Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.
So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out. At that point, though, they are marked for death.
Great point that I missed. Definitely helps narrow scum's kill pool at night if they are shooting for the other team. (Hint: they should be.)
It all comes down to whether or not the scum teams decide they want to take out each other, or wait awhile and enjoy some double NK nights (which are good for both of them).
It all comes down to whether or not the scum teams decide they want to take out each other, or wait awhile and enjoy some double NK nights (which are good for both of them).
Everybody here who has played multiball (including me) say that scum always wants to kill the other scum.
So this is what I am getting
1. Claiming doctor is helpful to the town right nowI think the doctor claiming plan may be a good idea. Will a scum team target the doctor over someone else? I don't think so, not even if they were sure that he would die. They're basically giving their opposing team a chance to gain an advantage over them (if scum A targets the doctor, they kill a known townie while scum B has the chance to hit one of them).2. Claiming doctor hurts the town later.Remember, everyone, that if the Doctor claims and becomes IC, he is an IC who is guaranteed to die once one scumteam is dead. This isn't a Role Madness game where there are other unknown power roles out there who can WIFOM scum at night about their kill. Yes, I agree that the opposing scumteams create such a WIFOM and will probably mean a Doctor who claims now won't be nightkilled - for now. But as soon as one scumteam is dead, that WIFOM disappears and nothing can bring it back. And the Doctor is then dead... at just the time (lategame) when his Doctor protection would be most helpful.
Well, I'm at L-2. That's interesting.
Explanations from Voltgloss and sudgy still needed then. And Voltgloss's is more of an update as he had a reason to start with.
My vote was mainly for pressure, and Robz has had time to respond, so Unvote.
I just read this D1 a little closer, and stumbled upon this:Though, here's a caveat I just thought of: if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on. Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.
So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out. At that point, though, they are marked for death.
Great point that I missed. Definitely helps narrow scum's kill pool at night if they are shooting for the other team. (Hint: they should be.)
This dovetails with my "is ash who doesn't carefully read the setup pregame town!ash or scum!ash" question. I haven't yet had the chance to research this. I do agree it tends towards townpoints for ash, unless there is precedent for scum!ash faking a less-than-thorough read of the setup.
Interesting. If ash was scum, he would have certainly thought about the consequences of his plan for scum, and he says here that he hasn't done that. So is there a reason to withhold that thought for scum!ash? I don't think so. This gives me a town read on ash.
I just read this D1 a little closer, and stumbled upon this:Though, here's a caveat I just thought of: if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on. Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.
So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out. At that point, though, they are marked for death.
Great point that I missed. Definitely helps narrow scum's kill pool at night if they are shooting for the other team. (Hint: they should be.)
Interesting. If ash was scum, he would have certainly thought about the consequences of his plan for scum, and he says here that he hasn't done that. So is there a reason to withhold that thought for scum!ash? I don't think so. This gives me a town read on ash.
Well that's that then. I've never played multiball post-return. I did have to deal with a known SK as scum in HP but I think we decided to start gunning for them D2ish.
An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.
I will continue to say this: I believe having an IC is a huge boon to town. Knowing 100% that someone else is town with you is tremendous. It's like Best Friends, or a Mason you can't talk to. It changes the scope of the game for you. Yuma should agree with me here, as he convinced me of the power of known-Town while M31 was going on. Troy/Abed was a game-changer.
A weak PR (doctor) gets turned into a much stronger one (IC Doctor).
Imagine it this way, what if there was an Innocent Doctor role in the game? Huge.
Currently I have a small town read on e, so unvote. Related to that, are there any examples of new players rolling scum with a vet I can go look at?btw, Vote: faust
Any particular reason for this?
vote: Archetype for showing up, talking theory, and leaving.
Catching up.So this is what I am getting
1. Claiming doctor is helpful to the town right nowI think the doctor claiming plan may be a good idea. Will a scum team target the doctor over someone else? I don't think so, not even if they were sure that he would die. They're basically giving their opposing team a chance to gain an advantage over them (if scum A targets the doctor, they kill a known townie while scum B has the chance to hit one of them).2. Claiming doctor hurts the town later.Remember, everyone, that if the Doctor claims and becomes IC, he is an IC who is guaranteed to die once one scumteam is dead. This isn't a Role Madness game where there are other unknown power roles out there who can WIFOM scum at night about their kill. Yes, I agree that the opposing scumteams create such a WIFOM and will probably mean a Doctor who claims now won't be nightkilled - for now. But as soon as one scumteam is dead, that WIFOM disappears and nothing can bring it back. And the Doctor is then dead... at just the time (lategame) when his Doctor protection would be most helpful.
I think 2.7 sums it up nicely. Whether the doctor claims is the classic short-term gain vs. long-term gain debate.
Yeah. That is a good point. However, if I was scum I'd certainly kill the claimed Doc. Maybe it's just that I've never been scum in a multiball game. But I wouldn't be all too mad if the Doc claims, but I'd rather them claim tommorow.An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.
Because waiting for D2 means 3 chances for the Doctor to die, 2 of those chances being 100% scum controlled and without the opportunity of a claim. Remember, the Doctor can't save himself at night.
So waiting is high-risk for little added gain. Would we mislynch? Probably not, because the doc would claim before it happened. Will the doc survive the night if the scum team DOESN'T know who he is?
The doctor is MORE likely to survive past N1 if he claims than not.
yucky vote... archetype has been mislynched more times per game as town than anyone... 7 times and in only 9 games as town. I think that f.ds cannot read archetype to save our lives...
reducing the lynch pool or having an player to lead us is not the valuable. at all.
reducing the lynch pool or having an player to lead us is not the valuable. at all.
This is a verifiably false statement. If that was true, the "Innocent Child" role wouldn't exist or help town or be useful. In recent f.ds games the IC has had a hugely positive impact on the game for town.
what? Have you been reading my posts? Or just the quotes out of context?reducing the lynch pool or having an player to lead us is not the valuable. at all.
This is a verifiably false statement. If that was true, the "Innocent Child" role wouldn't exist or help town or be useful. In recent f.ds games the IC has had a hugely positive impact on the game for town.
How can you say this? It is in scum's interest, and only scum's interest, to fight against the creation of an IC in a normal game. In a multi-ball game, it's even in scum's interest to create an IC to help them kill the other team.
I mean, if you are trying to gain reverse towncred as scum by opposing something that is good for both town and scum, it isn't going to work.
The doctor claim helps town more than scum, but even scum can see value in it for themselves. And once one scum team is eliminated, or even feels it has the upperhand, maybe they kill off the doctor. But until then, I think it keep our doctor alive AND helps town during the days.
PPE: Yuma explained it too. Yeah, we've lynched PRs D1 before (never in a game where I was town though I believe). That's ridiculous and should never happen unless scum fakeclaims. If it happens today I will be very disappointed. There's just no excuse for that happening.
D1 lynch of choice? Not here, for sure.PPE: Yuma explained it too. Yeah, we've lynched PRs D1 before (never in a game where I was town though I believe). That's ridiculous and should never happen unless scum fakeclaims. If it happens today I will be very disappointed. There's just no excuse for that happening.
And yet it does. Doctors were the D1 lynch of choice for quite awhile, actually. Plenty of reasons it can happen, too.
Doctor's not around to claim. Scum quickhammer. Town derphammer. Doctor refuses to claim. Etc. Etc.
I, for one, do not want to waste my time suspecting people who I don't have to suspect. You know how awesome it is to spend four IRL days working up a wagon on someone just to get to L-1 and have them claim Doctor without a counterclaim, and the have to scramble to find someone else to lynch so we don't deadline out? ABSOLUTELY NOT AWESOME is how much.
vote: liopoil for anti-town play. Not particularly scummier than others at this point, but anti-town is a better lynch than pro-town.
The other option is run everyone up to L-1 as quickly as possible to get this out of the way.
Having the doctor claim now alleviates that problem. In fact I think it is great because from that point on, no one can claim anything ever... No more "L-1, I think I might hammer, you had better claim" crap.
@Yuma: fair enough. The solution to this is pretty simple though: actually adhere to a soft deadline. It's our fault for not doing that. Let's actually do that this time. I don't think that this is unreasonable to achieve.
well, okay. Yeah, I remember those games where you tried to get us to follow a soft-deadline, but it didn't work. And no, I don't have any brand new ideas.
Deadline is monday. Unfortunate, because weekend, and it's already tuesday night and we haven't gotten much progress.
I guess I'd suggest a soft deadline of 6pm Forum Time on Friday. Now, we don't necessarily have to have a lynch by then. What we do need by then, is for someone to get to L-1 with intent to hammer, and that person to claim by that time. If that person claims doctor, we have time to find a different lynch, and that different lynch won't have a chance that this person will claim something. If they don't claim doctor, then, well... we probably just lynch them.
I, for one, do not want to waste my time suspecting people who I don't have to suspect. You know how awesome it is to spend four IRL days working up a wagon on someone just to get to L-1 and have them claim Doctor without a counterclaim, and the have to scramble to find someone else to lynch so we don't deadline out? ABSOLUTELY NOT AWESOME is how much.
But the real problem is this. If we say that we won't lynch someone unless we give them a chance to claim--out of fear of lynching the doc--we give scum an out. all they have to do is not be online during the last bit of the lynch (this in itself is a bit scummy, but can't be helped because people have real lives) and they won't get lynched because they won't be around to potentially claim Doctor.
Having the doctor claim now alleviates that problem. In fact I think it is great because from that point on, no one can claim anything ever... No more "L-1, I think I might hammer, you had better claim" crap.
I, for one, do not want to waste my time suspecting people who I don't have to suspect. You know how awesome it is to spend four IRL days working up a wagon on someone just to get to L-1 and have them claim Doctor without a counterclaim, and the have to scramble to find someone else to lynch so we don't deadline out? ABSOLUTELY NOT AWESOME is how much.
This is a legitimate concern. So is the argument that the Doc claiming now actually makes him more likely to survive - during these early days.
The question is, do those benefits outweigh the negatives of the Doctor claiming? The main one being that, once on scumteam is dead, the remaining scum will absolutely kill off the Doctor. I mean, why the hell wouldn't they?
It's certainly true that an IC can be a powerful asset, but it can also be a real detriment to town if successfully misled by scum. Look no further than my own terrible play in M31. I dunno, maybe everyone who played in mcmc's game came out of that very impressed with the IC role, whereas I am a lot less enamored with it. :p
Well you got played, but I still think you were a major thorn in our side in that game... as were other virtual ICs, Jorbles and and Ahoppy.
I, for one, do not want to waste my time suspecting people who I don't have to suspect. You know how awesome it is to spend four IRL days working up a wagon on someone just to get to L-1 and have them claim Doctor without a counterclaim, and the have to scramble to find someone else to lynch so we don't deadline out? ABSOLUTELY NOT AWESOME is how much.
This is a legitimate concern. So is the argument that the Doc claiming now actually makes him more likely to survive - during these early days.
The question is, do those benefits outweigh the negatives of the Doctor claiming? The main one being that, once on scumteam is dead, the remaining scum will absolutely kill off the Doctor. I mean, why the hell wouldn't they?
It's certainly true that an IC can be a powerful asset, but it can also be a real detriment to town if successfully misled by scum. Look no further than my own terrible play in M31. I dunno, maybe everyone who played in mcmc's game came out of that very impressed with the IC role, whereas I am a lot less enamored with it. :p
Well you got played, but I still think you were a major thorn in our side in that game... as were other virtual ICs, Jorbles and and Ahoppy.
Of course our Doc/IC will die once one of the teams is eliminated, BUT that's not for a while, and an unclaimed Doctor has a significant risk of dying by that point anyway.
How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?
Well you got played, but I still think you were a major thorn in our side in that game... as were other virtual ICs, Jorbles and and Ahoppy.
Galz said my play was terrible and I trust his judgment. I'm not even being sarcastic here in the slightest.
Well you got played, but I still think you were a major thorn in our side in that game... as were other virtual ICs, Jorbles and and Ahoppy.
Galz said my play was terrible and I trust his judgment. I'm not even being sarcastic here in the slightest.
It wasn't. Your reads were kinda bad, but your being IC was completely fine, if not superb. Galz has a very different style of playing IC, one that I was very critical early on in Warriors if you remember... Not everyone has to play the same way.
How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?
You ask a lot of questions. Any answers to offer up?
Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt. FYI.
How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?
You ask a lot of questions. Any answers to offer up?
Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt. FYI.
I always ask a lot of questions. And I think they're important questions to consider. I'm trying to work through them myself.
Has anyone, perchance, looked at the mafiascum plays of this setup to see how they handled the Doctor claiming/not claiming? And how that worked out for them? I haven't had time, but I know multiple games are linked in the wiki entry for Fire and Ice.
How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?
You ask a lot of questions. Any answers to offer up?
Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt. FYI.
I always ask a lot of questions. And I think they're important questions to consider. I'm trying to work through them myself.
I think town!Voltgloss makes more statements of opinion, though.
How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?
You ask a lot of questions. Any answers to offer up?
Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt. FYI.
I always ask a lot of questions. And I think they're important questions to consider. I'm trying to work through them myself.
I think town!Voltgloss makes more statements of opinion, though.
Has anyone, perchance, looked at the mafiascum plays of this setup to see how they handled the Doctor claiming/not claiming? And how that worked out for them? I haven't had time, but I know multiple games are linked in the wiki entry for Fire and Ice.
reading those games is horrible. Like headache inducing horrible...
the one game I just glanced through (town win) didn't discuss it. One player seems to have been very against it and the town doc was killed night3 (having a successful protection night2). ice and fire shot each other to give town the win...
And just went through another game where they were very vocal about doc not claiming and one of the mafia one. Not saying that it was caused by that, but it appears that no claiming seems to be the norm that they arrived at in the two games I looked at, but it appeared to be based off the status quo that claiming was bad as they didn't really delve into whether it was good or bad the way we have.
PS: I looked at the two most recent games.
Open 434 is kinda hilarious. The game opened with a player claiming VT. He was scum, and was the last person alive, winning the game.
PPE: Yuma explained it too. Yeah, we've lynched PRs D1 before (never in a game where I was town though I believe). That's ridiculous and should never happen unless scum fakeclaims. If it happens today I will be very disappointed. There's just no excuse for that happening.
And yet it does. Doctors were the D1 lynch of choice for quite awhile, actually. Plenty of reasons it can happen, too.
Doctor's not around to claim. Scum quickhammer. Town derphammer. Doctor refuses to claim. Etc. Etc.
I, for one, do not want to waste my time suspecting people who I don't have to suspect. You know how awesome it is to spend four IRL days working up a wagon on someone just to get to L-1 and have them claim Doctor without a counterclaim, and the have to scramble to find someone else to lynch so we don't deadline out? ABSOLUTELY NOT AWESOME is how much.
vote: liopoil for anti-town play. Not particularly scummier than others at this point, but anti-town is a better lynch than pro-town.
The other option is run everyone up to L-1 as quickly as possible to get this out of the way.
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...By my count we have ashersky, robz, voltaire, sudgy, gveoniz (one post saying he was good with it, but has only posted twice the entire time), eevee, and yuma all say yes to doctor claiming now.
| Voltaire Robz888 liopoil Archetype ashersky sudgy Yuma Voltgloss 2.71828..... faust Gveoniz Eevee NHSederholm | 13 13 7 4 36 5 23 31 15 7 2 9 1 |
noob side note: Is a simple way to keep track of this? I feel certain that there is, I just haven't used it. I have been keeping track as I go (so there is a very small margin of error here), which helps me insure that I read the posts and don't miss anything
If the Doctor is NK'ed because we've eliminated a scum team, that'll be sad and all, but WE ELIMINATED A SCUM TEAM. And that's awesome.
If the doc claims now we are guaranteed a short term gain. A decreased lynch pool today and an IC point of view guaranteed for at least day1 and probably longer.This makes a lot of sense to me. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Now I still think that the chances an unclaimed doctor is killed N1 are slim, the arguments for N1 survival of a claimed doctor are persuasive.
Whereas the long term is a gamble because we might not get any benefit from it if the doc waits to claim or doesn't claim.
So it isn't just short term vs long term. It is guaranteed benefits opposed to potential benefits.
noob side note: Is a simple way to keep track of this? I feel certain that there is, I just haven't used it. I have been keeping track as I go (so there is a very small margin of error here), which helps me insure that I read the posts and don't miss anything
I usually hit the "All" pages button toward the top of the thread and do a search "Goko username: XXXX" with XXXX being the player's goko username, if they have one. If they don't have one you can do a print screen and search "post by: XXXX". From there you can subtract the pre-game posts that voltaire mentioned earlier. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310639#msg310639)
I'll ragevote anyone who says they're waiting for me to lead everyone (Voltgloss, I totally get it now).
I'm around and desperate to avoid doing work. Anything to discuss...?
I'm around and desperate to avoid doing work. Anything to discuss...?
Care to sum up Voltaire's activity up to now? Who he voted, etc.?
More helpful will be folks' reactions to him, interactions.
I'm around and desperate to avoid doing work. Anything to discuss...?
Care to sum up Voltaire's activity up to now? Who he voted, etc.?
More helpful will be folks' reactions to him, interactions.
That sounds like work.
Robz, what are your thoughts on the L-2 wagon on you?
What do you make of it?
How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?
You ask a lot of questions. Any answers to offer up?
Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt. FYI.
I always ask a lot of questions. And I think they're important questions to consider. I'm trying to work through them myself.
I think town!Voltgloss makes more statements of opinion, though.
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...
The thing is that I didn't really believe sudgy's vote was for pressure. "For pressure" read to me like a belated justification he came up with to avoid scrutiny. Now, I think I've occasionally lied as town to provide a justification for something I did after I realize what I did was not so hot. And hojnestly MAYBE that's what sudgy did.
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...
He could have been killed anyway. He's Voltaire, a player with a pretty good reputation. One team or the other might have shot him Night 1--now it's likely neither will.
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in.
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you explain?
... this has me worried a little. I think an outed doctor will die as soon as one scum team has the upper hand. If it's two scum A/one scum B/town, scum B won't shoot the doctor, they need to hit scum A. Scum A can safely shoot the doctor, and that's good for them, because they don't want a reduced lynch pool at this point (and they don't have much incentive to shoot scum B because that would mean one NK less and thus a longer game).
I'm not so sure anymore that this doctor claim is really a good idea.
Has anyone, perchance, looked at the mafiascum plays of this setup to see how they handled the Doctor claiming/not claiming? And how that worked out for them? I haven't had time, but I know multiple games are linked in the wiki entry for Fire and Ice.
I guess we were looking at the same one?Has anyone, perchance, looked at the mafiascum plays of this setup to see how they handled the Doctor claiming/not claiming? And how that worked out for them? I haven't had time, but I know multiple games are linked in the wiki entry for Fire and Ice.
reading those games is horrible. Like headache inducing horrible...
the one game I just glanced through (town win) didn't discuss it. One player seems to have been very against it and the town doc was killed night3 (having a successful protection night2). ice and fire shot each other to give town the win...
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you explain?... this has me worried a little. I think an outed doctor will die as soon as one scum team has the upper hand. If it's two scum A/one scum B/town, scum B won't shoot the doctor, they need to hit scum A. Scum A can safely shoot the doctor, and that's good for them, because they don't want a reduced lynch pool at this point (and they don't have much incentive to shoot scum B because that would mean one NK less and thus a longer game).
I'm not so sure anymore that this doctor claim is really a good idea.
Posts: 1 (0.091 per day)That last bit has me worried a little. 4 hours after D1 start, then 32 hours (and counting) of being absent
Respect: +1
Gender: MaleAge:15
Location:Utah
Date Registered: October 25, 2013, 02:32:44 pm
Local Time:November 06, 2013, 08:27:23 am
Last Active: November 05, 2013, 12:05:36 am
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
I guess your explanation is reasonable, still feel really strange though.Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...I don't understand this, especially with an actually claim now by someone saying it is good.
Also, no plan. Except someone needs to draw both NKs so that there are no NKs. So, I do have a plan.
What town PR is most likely to get NKed? Maybe they can claim, force wifom, and either not die from two kills or not die because both teams dodge them?Oh, 8 freaking VTs? Yeesh.
Doctor can claim, force both teams to decide who shoots him, either both or neither. Lives forever?
Homework: Is "ash who hasn't carefully reviewed the setup pregame" generally town!ash, or generally scum!ash?
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.
What do you mean, I "always" seem scummy to you? The only other time we played together, we were both scum, so obviously I did, yeah.
Also, no plan. Except someone needs to draw both NKs so that there are no NKs. So, I do have a plan.
What town PR is most likely to get NKed? Maybe they can claim, force wifom, and either not die from two kills or not die because both teams dodge them?Oh, 8 freaking VTs? Yeesh.
Doctor can claim, force both teams to decide who shoots him, either both or neither. Lives forever?
Homework: Is "ash who hasn't carefully reviewed the setup pregame" generally town!ash, or generally scum!ash?
Results:
ash as scum
ash's most recent scum game was M25 (Mean Girls), where he had a plan for everyone to say who they would have picked if they were mafia (in this game, mafia got to pick their partners pre-game). He had clearly read the setup closely. Prior to that, ash was last scum in M18, and had no obvious plan D1. He seemed to pretend he didn't know multiball, but it was long enough ago he quite possibly didn't yet know multiball. At this point, the games were so old ash's meta has almost certainly changed and I don't see any value in looking further back.
ash as town
In M32, ash came roaring out of the gate with a plan. Same for M30. In M29, he came out with a massclaim plan, but appeared to convince himself of it after stating it (talking out loud, in a way) after his first post. In M28, he had an intentionally horrible plan and had clearly read the setup. In M27, ash staunchly opposed a plan proposed by others due to theory disagreements about its usefulness. He had clearly read the setup. M22, he had a plan to be silly and see if anyone would vote him for it. M19, ash had some claiming plans for later days involving semi-follow-the-cop. At this point, I stopped going back.
I looked at every ash game M18 to the present. Honestly, I can't find a single example of ash not reading the setup closely pre-game. The closest would be M29. This is a null tell for ash, or maybe 1% town, but overall I get nothing from this line of inquiry.
ash, any comments on not having your plan fully formed?
2.7 isn't really scummy for it, to my mind. I like secret, unexplained strategies, so I can overlook faust. I have made RVS votes and then not moved them as well, so Voltgloss's is okay.
Eevee I just don't get it all, his explanation made me feel like I was playing a different game than him.
Sudgy's was the worst, probably. It's hard to argue that he actually thought he was pressuring me--to do what? I was active--and then came off so quickly. I mean he's most obviously lying that it was for pressure.
Well Vote: sudgy then.
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
1. Why do you think this?
2. Why did you say it?
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
1. Why do you think this?
2. Why did you say it?
I actually wasn't sure if it was true, but I thought a way better way to get interactions was to say something controversial and see who would jump on it. See:I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
1. Why do you think this?
2. Why did you say it?
I actually wasn't sure if it was true, but I thought a way better way to get interactions was to say something controversial and see who would jump on it. See:I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
Do I read this correctly? You said something scummy so you can find people scummy for pointing out it was scummy? Now, that's a great scumhunting scheme.
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
1. Why do you think this?
2. Why did you say it?
I actually wasn't sure if it was true, but I thought a way better way to get interactions was to say something controversial and see who would jump on it. See:I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
Do I read this correctly? You said something scummy so you can find people scummy for pointing out it was scummy? Now, that's a great scumhunting scheme.
The toy chest was abuzz (not to be confused with a Buzz) with the sound of toys arguing amongst themselves. They were so worried that even when one of the toys claimed to be Andy himself it only briefly paused their discussion before they went back to trying to find which of the toys would lock the toy chest, and what their motives could be. Were they trying to stay New In Box? But if that were so, why would they damage Woody? Nobody had an answer. That is, nobody except the culprits...
Vote Count 1.4:
Archetype (1): Voltaire
faust (2): Gveoniz, sudgy
Gveoniz (1): faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
NHSederholm (1): Eevee
Robz888 (1): 2.71828.....
sudgy (2): faust, Robz888
Voltaire (1): yuma
Not Voting (4): Archetype, liopoil, NHSederholm, Voltgloss
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 ends Monday November 11 at 8ish FT.
The toy chest was abuzz (not to be confused with a Buzz) with the sound of toys arguing amongst themselves. They were so worried that even when one of the toys claimed to be Andy himself it only briefly paused their discussion before they went back to trying to find which of the toys would lock the toy chest, and what their motives could be. Were they trying to stay New In Box? But if that were so, why would they damage Woody? Nobody had an answer. That is, nobody except the culprits...
Vote Count 1.4:
Archetype (1): Voltaire
faust (2): Gveoniz, sudgy
Gveoniz (1): faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
NHSederholm (1): Eevee
Robz888 (0):
sudgy (2): faust, Robz888
Voltaire (1): yuma
Not Voting (5): Archetype, liopoil, NHSederholm, Voltgloss, 2.71828.....
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 ends Monday November 11 at 8ish FT.
I believe 2.7 is no longer voting for me.
I know it's tough, but we have to strive for more accurate post counts, people.
The toy chest was abuzz (not to be confused with a Buzz) with the sound of toys arguing amongst themselves. They were so worried that even when one of the toys claimed to be Andy himself it only briefly paused their discussion before they went back to trying to find which of the toys would lock the toy chest, and what their motives could be. Were they trying to stay New In Box? But if that were so, why would they damage Woody? Nobody had an answer. That is, nobody except the culprits...
Vote Count 1.4:
Archetype (1): Voltaire
faust (2): Gveoniz, sudgy
Gveoniz (1): faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
NHSederholm (1): Eevee
Robz888 (0):
sudgy (2): faust, Robz888
Voltaire (1): yuma
Not Voting (5): Archetype, liopoil, NHSederholm, Voltgloss, 2.71828.....
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 ends Monday November 11 at 8ish FT.
I believe 2.7 is no longer voting for me.
I know it's tough, but we have to strive for more accurate post counts, people.
Confirming that 2.71828..... is currently Not Voting. The quote above has been corrected, corrections in italics
I couldn't have told you that Archetype or liopoil were even in this game, and NHS's absence is a problem. But everyone else seems to be doing stuff.Liopoil came out strong against the doctor reveal, softened his stance somewhat, then discussed deadlines a bit. While he added some to the discussion regarding "why doctor should not reveal" he hasn't been around to say a whole lot.
I don't think what I said was scummy, but that it was controversial.
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
Do I read this correctly? You said something scummy so you can find people scummy for pointing out it was scummy? Now, that's a great scumhunting scheme.
I agree!
vote: faust
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
Do I read this correctly? You said something scummy so you can find people scummy for pointing out it was scummy? Now, that's a great scumhunting scheme.
I agree!
vote: faust
I also agree.
Vote: faust
Also: latest vote count has faust voting twice. Sorry chairs.
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
Do I read this correctly? You said something scummy so you can find people scummy for pointing out it was scummy? Now, that's a great scumhunting scheme.
I agree!
vote: faust
I also agree.
Vote: faust
Also: latest vote count has faust voting twice. Sorry chairs.
Can someone please explain the votes on faust?
Can someone please explain the votes on faust?
So Voltaire, are you going to lead us?
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...Now, this statement was either
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
I don't get this... your plan worked perfectly, in baiting someone to find you scummy which then tells nothing about your alignment. I don't find sudgy scummy for this as some people have... but I certainly don't find faust scummy....
Maybe I find the people who are finding faust scummy to be scummy? Who is that? voltgloss, ashersky and sudgy, so actually not that many people. And volt and ash were more on my townread of things leading up to this, ash based more off meta, volt based off activity (which is really a null read for him in all honesty)...
So vote: voltgloss for voting faust for finding something scummy that there should be no reason to find scummy. Plus it means I am no longer voting for the claimed Doc!
It also looks like he is using this as a reason to continue to find him scummy after he had to abandon some reasons before. I dont' know if this in itself is scummy... but is something I noticed in my reread.
Can someone please explain the votes on faust?
sudgy made a controversial statement to see who would attack him as scummy for doing so. faust did. The theory is that he is scum!faust looking for an easily defensible vote target.
faust has since sarcastically remarked that sudgy's plan is "a great scumhunting scheme." But I actually think, without sarcasm, that sudgy's plan is a reasonable one. So, between faust's reaction to both sudgy's controversial statement AND his reaction to sudgy's explaining his scheme, I am comfortable voting faust.
I think ash feels the same as me.
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
I don't get this... your plan worked perfectly, in baiting someone to find you scummy which then tells nothing about your alignment. I don't find sudgy scummy for this as some people have... but I certainly don't find faust scummy....
Maybe I find the people who are finding faust scummy to be scummy? Who is that? voltgloss, ashersky and sudgy, so actually not that many people. And volt and ash were more on my townread of things leading up to this, ash based more off meta, volt based off activity (which is really a null read for him in all honesty)...
So vote: voltgloss for voting faust for finding something scummy that there should be no reason to find scummy. Plus it means I am no longer voting for the claimed Doc!
It also looks like he is using this as a reason to continue to find him scummy after he had to abandon some reasons before. I dont' know if this in itself is scummy... but is something I noticed in my reread.
This is really confusing to read.
sudgy did something scummy to bait scummy reactions and faust provided that scummy reaction by finding sudgy's scummy action scummy and then sudgy and others voted faust for the scummy reaction to the scummy action and now yuma is voting voltgloss for voting faust for voting sudgy because voltgloss finding faust's scummy reaction to sudgy's scummy action is scummy according to yuma.
Is that right?
Kinda... it is more that I expect scum to be somehow involved in this whole exchange... I don't see what sudgy did to be scummy nor do I see how faust reacted to be scummy and I have more of a town read on you than voltgloss from other posts and reads.
So yeah what you said is correct to an extent, but it is more that I don't think scum ignores this situation and I see voltgloss's reaction as the one to be most likely to be from scum.
So finding sudgy scummy for the statement is scummy.and
I don't see what sudgy did to be scummy nor do I see how faust reacted to be scummy and I have more of a town read on you than voltgloss from other posts and reads.help me realize more how your statement (as ridiculous as I thought that it was) can be used as a part of a plan to garner reactions and get reads from there.
So yeah what you said is correct to an extent, but it is more that I don't think scum ignores this situation and I see voltgloss's reaction as the one to be most likely to be from scum.
So finding sudgy scummy for the statement is scummy.but what I find scummy is what I see as revisionist history concerning the post
help me realize more how your statement (as ridiculous as I thought that it was) can be used as a part of a plan to garner reactions and get reads from there.
help me realize more how your statement (as ridiculous as I thought that it was) can be used as a part of a plan to garner reactions and get reads from there.
I don't have a plan to garner reactions... I am just trying to get reads based off what is given. I am not all that sure what you are saying here....
yeah, i was responding to sudgy. didn't make it abundantly clearhelp me realize more how your statement (as ridiculous as I thought that it was) can be used as a part of a plan to garner reactions and get reads from there.
I don't have a plan to garner reactions... I am just trying to get reads based off what is given. I am not all that sure what you are saying here....
Oh... I think you are talking to sudgy here... Is that right? Sorry I thought you were addressing me as you had quoted my post... It was rather confusing.
I was hoping to see more from lio/Archetype. Huge FoS to you two.When it comes to scum teams, I don't experience here but there seem to be four options.
What does everyone make of the fact that, theoretically, scum should be scumhunting just as much as town yet this town is lurksville?
I was hoping to see more from lio/Archetype. Huge FoS to you two.When it comes to scum teams, I don't experience here but there seem to be four options.
What does everyone make of the fact that, theoretically, scum should be scumhunting just as much as town yet this town is lurksville?
1) Player A posts, Player B lurks
2) Player A lurks, Player B posts
3) Player A and Player B post
4) Player A and Player B lurk
I really doubt (4) is going to happen, but the other three are all real options. Since 2/3 of those options include one of the mafia lurking, I think it is fair to suspect at least one of our lurkers as mafia. However, since they are lurking it is hard to know who it might be....
Our current "10 or fewer posts" club:
liopoil- 10
archetype- 5
sudgy- 9
gveoniz- 6
NHS- 1
Now, I realize that going strictly of the number of posts does not take into account the quality of those posts, but the numbers don't lie.
So vote: voltgloss for voting faust for finding something scummy that there should be no reason to find scummy.
Kinda... it is more that I expect scum to be somehow involved in this whole exchange... I don't see what sudgy did to be scummy nor do I see how faust reacted to be scummy and I have more of a town read on you than voltgloss from other posts and reads.
So yeah what you said is correct to an extent, but it is more that I don't think scum ignores this situation and I see voltgloss's reaction as the one to be most likely to be from scum.
I think with 4 scum in the game, all situations will likely have scum involved.
What does everyone make of the fact that, theoretically, scum should be scumhunting just as much as town yet this town is lurksville?
What does everyone make of the fact that, theoretically, scum should be scumhunting just as much as town yet this town is lurksville?
I think scum may be playing defensively, being more interested in protecting each other.
I was hoping to see more from lio/Archetype. Huge FoS to you two.When it comes to scum teams, I don't experience here but there seem to be four options.
What does everyone make of the fact that, theoretically, scum should be scumhunting just as much as town yet this town is lurksville?
1) Player A posts, Player B lurks
2) Player A lurks, Player B posts
3) Player A and Player B post
4) Player A and Player B lurk
I really doubt (4) is going to happen, but the other three are all real options.
What does everyone make of the fact that, theoretically, scum should be scumhunting just as much as town yet this town is lurksville?
I think scum may be playing defensively, being more interested in protecting each other.
And by "each other" I mean each scumpair is more interested in keeping the two of them alive. I certainly don't mean the Fire scum are interested in protecting the Ice scum or vice versa.
I don't really follow sudgy's plan, or much of the posturing that came out of it, but between sudgy and faust, I am quite sure sudgy is and should come off as the scummier one.
Of our lurkers... NHS isn't actually a lurker, just someone who probably needs to be replaced.
Archetype is very often mislynched, and pretty lurky is town.
Sudgy is lurking and fits some scum criteria for me, so cool.
As for liopoil, I have no idea what liopoil's meta is, except I think I've seen him lurk as town but try to have good content, sort of like theorel but less extreme. Do the vets agree/disagree with me here?
Gveoniz is just getting into the game I think and I try not to lynch newbies on Day 1 without exceptionally strong reasons.
I don't really follow sudgy's plan, or much of the posturing that came out of it, but between sudgy and faust, I am quite sure sudgy is and should come off as the scummier one.
Are you sure that's not just regular sudgy bias? It's a thing now.
but what I find scummy is what I see as revisionist history concerning the post
Sudgy is lurking and fits some scum criteria for me, so cool.
Sudgy is lurking and fits some scum criteria for me, so cool.
Have you ever played with me before? Because from you this is extremely surprising to me.
Sudgy is lurking and fits some scum criteria for me, so cool.
Have you ever played with me before? Because from you this is extremely surprising to me.
I have, and in 2 of the 3 times I can recall best, you were scum.
I don't really follow sudgy's plan, or much of the posturing that came out of it, but between sudgy and faust, I am quite sure sudgy is and should come off as the scummier one.
Are you sure that's not just regular sudgy bias? It's a thing now.
I'm really really sure it's not bias, because I actually have a bias toward not wanting to lynch him, since he was lynched Day 1 in his last game. I'm voting for mail-mi because I don't believe his thing having to do with me was actually for pressure, that was a cover explanation. this further thing with faust is not like ironclad but I think it paints him scummier than faust.
I don't really follow sudgy's plan, or much of the posturing that came out of it, but between sudgy and faust, I am quite sure sudgy is and should come off as the scummier one.
Are you sure that's not just regular sudgy bias? It's a thing now.
I'm really really sure it's not bias, because I actually have a bias toward not wanting to lynch him, since he was lynched Day 1 in his last game. I'm voting for mail-mi because I don't believe his thing having to do with me was actually for pressure, that was a cover explanation. this further thing with faust is not like ironclad but I think it paints him scummier than faust.
Are you sure you aren't blending mail-mi and sudgy into one?
I don't think what I said was scummy, but that it was controversial.
Okay then, why do you think it's scummy to react to a controversial statement?
help me realize more how your statement (as ridiculous as I thought that it was) can be used as a part of a plan to garner reactions and get reads from there.
Our current "10 or fewer posts" club:
liopoil- 10
archetype- 5
sudgy- 9
gveoniz- 6
NHS- 1
At least my vote was quite obviously a joke there. I wouldn't have let that wagon go through.Kinda... it is more that I expect scum to be somehow involved in this whole exchange... I don't see what sudgy did to be scummy nor do I see how faust reacted to be scummy and I have more of a town read on you than voltgloss from other posts and reads.
So yeah what you said is correct to an extent, but it is more that I don't think scum ignores this situation and I see voltgloss's reaction as the one to be most likely to be from scum.
I agree with you that scum is likely involved in this exchange.
How about the L-2 wagon on Robz? Do you think scum was likely involved in that exchange as well?
E has been pretty useful, so I'll move to Vote: Robz888.
My vote was mainly for pressure, and Robz has had time to respond, so Unvote.
My vote is part-RVS, part-ongoing-game-reasons. Sorry that I can't say anything else.
Obi Wan Kenobi was pretty smart. Siths were the mafia of star wars, and Robz's play matches the sith narrative Obi Wan proposed to the dot!
but Robz made such a bold claim that I want to hear more from him, rather than his agreement with others
Well my statement wasn't a serious statement...
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.I definitely read Eevee as a RVS vote having a bit of fun with the Star Wars quote, and I asked for further explanation from Robz, which was not given except to say the statement was not serious.
I would like everyone, in their next post, to summarize (or state for the first time) their opinion on faust/sudgy. Do you think they are most likely:
A) town / town
B) town / scum
C) scum / scum (bussing)
D) scum / scum (dif. teams)
Well, ignoring everything sudgy has said, he has a 4/11 chance to be scum and a 7/11 chance to be town.I was hoping you would go for C or D. ;)
The question now is: Is sudgy's behaviour scummy enough to push him over the 50% mark (and thus make scenario B more likely than A)? It's not even so much that sudgy wanted to POE the doctor - I could see that as a mistake - but the way he justified it afterwards. Saying something "controversial" to catch scum? How does that work? Doesn't town react equally to controversial statements? And sudgy refused to answer further questions about his plan, so this could just be something he made up after being called out and then realized it doesn't work.
Overall, I'm generally not super-confident in my reads, but I think sudgy has something like a 60% chance to be scum. So I find B a little more likely than A.
Opinions about whether or not the doctor should claim, prior to my claim:Two posts before your claim I came out in favor of doctor claiming, so I am not sure why I am grouped with anti-claim. Pretty scummy to forget that....oh wait....you're the doctor
Claim D1
ashersky
yuma
Voltaire
sudgy
Gveoniz
Eevee (initially anti-claim)
Robz
Claim D2
Archetype
Anti-claim
liopoil
2.7
Uncertain
Voltgloss
faust (initially pro-claim)
No opinion expressed
NHS
Two posts before your claim I came out in favor of doctor claiming, so I am not sure why I am grouped with anti-claim. Pretty scummy to forget that....oh wait....you're the doctor
Two posts before your claim I came out in favor of doctor claiming, so I am not sure why I am grouped with anti-claim. Pretty scummy to forget that....oh wait....you're the doctor
You're right.
(Updated) Opinions about whether or not the doctor should claim, prior to my claim:
Claim D1
ashersky
yuma
Voltaire
sudgy
Gveoniz
Eevee (initially anti-claim)
Robz
2.7 (initially anti-claim)
Claim D2
Archetype
Anti-claim
liopoil
Uncertain
Voltgloss
faust (initially pro-claim)
No opinion expressed
NHS
Vote: 2.71828..... for being irrational, it is really unhelpful to the town.
Just returned home, it seems that a lots happened during my local day, but on the matter of doctor claiming, it seems good to to me, but I need some more time to think about it, if my opinion in this theory talk is valuable.
btw, Vote: faust
between sudgy and faust, I am quite sure sudgy is and should come off as the scummier one.
So sudgy, you've been around, but didn't bother answering this:I don't think what I said was scummy, but that it was controversial.
Okay then, why do you think it's scummy to react to a controversial statement?
faust, do you stand by your scummy opinion of Robz? If so, is it still for the reason(s) you can't explain? (just say yes or no about that)
(Updated) Opinions about whether or not the doctor should claim, prior to my claim:
Claim D1
ashersky
yuma
Voltaire
sudgy
Gveoniz
Eevee (initially anti-claim)
Robz
2.7 (initially anti-claim)
Claim D2
Archetype
Anti-claim
liopoil
Uncertain
Voltgloss
faust (initially pro-claim)
No opinion expressed
NHS
I'll make a deal with you: you read LOTR2 sudgy, and I'll read LOTR1 sudgy. Sound good? You only have one day of activity to read while I have three, so you've got the easier end of the bargain.
Actually, LOTR1 is probably a good game for us all to look over, being a recent multiball game with two scumteams of two players each.
Whatever the case, I don't buy the "Robz has had time to respond" line. Sure, I can agree that it was a pressure vote, but to be the first one to leave after almost no additional content is interesting. Not enough to make me read sudgy as scummy, but then combined with the other stuff it adds up. I am content with my sudgy vote for now.
I would like everyone, in their next post, to summarize (or state for the first time) their opinion on faust/sudgy. Do you think they are most likely:
A) town / town
B) town / scum
C) scum / scum (bussing)
D) scum / scum (dif. teams)
faust, do you stand by your scummy opinion of Robz? If so, is it still for the reason(s) you can't explain? (just say yes or no about that)
Yes, I am actually more convinced now that Robz is scum than I was before. Yes, I still can't explain.
faust, do you stand by your scummy opinion of Robz? If so, is it still for the reason(s) you can't explain? (just say yes or no about that)
Yes, I am actually more convinced now that Robz is scum than I was before. Yes, I still can't explain.
Huh. I'm surprised by this. I thought I understood what faust was thinking re: Robz, but apparently not.
faust, do you stand by your scummy opinion of Robz? If so, is it still for the reason(s) you can't explain? (just say yes or no about that)
Yes, I am actually more convinced now that Robz is scum than I was before. Yes, I still can't explain.
Huh. I'm surprised by this. I thought I understood what faust was thinking re: Robz, but apparently not.
Agreed, btw.
I'm not exactly sure what the policy towards ongoing games is. Can I say stuff about Robz in M34, as we're both dead there?
My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
faust, do you stand by your scummy opinion of Robz? If so, is it still for the reason(s) you can't explain? (just say yes or no about that)
It has now been 24 hours since NHS was prodded. 24 more hours from now, he's eligible for replacement in my understanding of the rules. mods, pretty-please line up a replacement for him in case it is needed? And NHS, if you're reading this and come back, welcome back! This statement is nothing personal, just trying to make sure we have a complete team here and we're glad to have you!
faust, do you stand by your scummy opinion of Robz? If so, is it still for the reason(s) you can't explain? (just say yes or no about that)
Yes, I am actually more convinced now that Robz is scum than I was before. Yes, I still can't explain.
Huh. I'm surprised by this. I thought I understood what faust was thinking re: Robz, but apparently not.
Agreed, btw.
I'm not exactly sure what the policy towards ongoing games is. Can I say stuff about Robz in M34, as we're both dead there?
So I think It would be B > D > A > C. But I am not sure right now.
So sudgy, you've been around, but didn't bother answering this:I don't think what I said was scummy, but that it was controversial.
Okay then, why do you think it's scummy to react to a controversial statement?
and this:help me realize more how your statement (as ridiculous as I thought that it was) can be used as a part of a plan to garner reactions and get reads from there.
Maybe you just don't have good answers to these questions?
More thoughts on Sudgy voting (dealing with the L-2 "wagon" that came up on Robz)
To put Robz at L-2 we have Sudgy:
Reply #213 on: November 05, 2013, 11:03:47 amE has been pretty useful, so I'll move to Vote: Robz888.
And the first to remove their vote, ending the "wagon" is sudgy:
Reply #231 on: November 05, 2013, 01:05:52 pmMy vote was mainly for pressure, and Robz has had time to respond, so Unvote.
A mere 17 posts and almost 2 hours between the sudgy's self-proclaimed "pressure" vote and the recall when "sufficient time had elapsed for Robz to respond".
These are a few of the posts that occured during that time:My vote is part-RVS, part-ongoing-game-reasons. Sorry that I can't say anything else.Obi Wan Kenobi was pretty smart. Siths were the mafia of star wars, and Robz's play matches the sith narrative Obi Wan proposed to the dot!but Robz made such a bold claim that I want to hear more from him, rather than his agreement with others
and the only thing we get from Robz during that time isWell my statement wasn't a serious statement...
So Faust was RVS, with something else that he never talked about. maybe this:Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.I definitely read Eevee as a RVS vote having a bit of fun with the Star Wars quote, and I asked for further explanation from Robz, which was not given except to say the statement was not serious.
Whatever the case, I don't buy the "Robz has had time to respond" line. Sure, I can agree that it was a pressure vote, but to be the first one to leave after almost no additional content is interesting. Not enough to make me read sudgy as scummy, but then combined with the other stuff it adds up. I am content with my sudgy vote for now.
So sudgy, you've been around, but didn't bother answering this:I don't think what I said was scummy, but that it was controversial.
Okay then, why do you think it's scummy to react to a controversial statement?
and this:help me realize more how your statement (as ridiculous as I thought that it was) can be used as a part of a plan to garner reactions and get reads from there.
Maybe you just don't have good answers to these questions?
So, first, the reason I think it's scummy to find me scummy for a controversial statement (not for some to react to it, as you said) is that controversial statements aren't scummy. And, my vote on you solidified more from your reaction, which also seemed somewhat scummy.
My plan, was to make a controversial statement, and see who would jump on it as scummy. I think that people who find non-scummy statements are more likely to be scum than not. And, it makes more reactions as well.
Okay, but isn't it true that your vote on me--which precipitated this whole thing--was because I made a controversial statement? Shouldn't I find you scummy then, based on your logic?
So, first, the reason I think it's scummy to find me scummy for a controversial statement (not for some to react to it, as you said) is that controversial statements aren't scummy. And, my vote on you solidified more from your reaction, which also seemed somewhat scummy.
My plan, was to make a controversial statement, and see who would jump on it as scummy. I think that people who find non-scummy statements are more likely to be scum than not. And, it makes more reactions as well.
This feels like answering to a math problem. I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player. Those are the assumptions I'd plug in to the equation, should I do the math or is this sufficient?My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
Are you closer to A, B, C, or D?
This feels like answering to a math problem. I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player. Those are the assumptions I'd plug in to the equation, should I do the math or is this sufficient?My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
Are you closer to A, B, C, or D?
I have ABCD statements from: Voltgloss, faust, 2.7, Gveoniz, and Robz.
I still need them from: liopoil, Archetype, ashersky, sudgy, Yuma, Eevee, NHSederholm
So, first, the reason I think it's scummy to find me scummy for a controversial statement (not for some to react to it, as you said) is that controversial statements aren't scummy. And, my vote on you solidified more from your reaction, which also seemed somewhat scummy.
My plan, was to make a controversial statement, and see who would jump on it as scummy. I think that people who find non-scummy statements are more likely to be scum than not. And, it makes more reactions as well.
So, you keep insisting that your statement wasn't scummy, only "controversial". Here's the thing: A statement is controversial if people have strong reactions in favor of it AND against it. It's not controversial if everyone basically agrees that it was a bad thing to say, and that's what happened.
So either your plan was flawed from the beginning because your statement wasn't what you needed it to be, or there was no plan at all and you try to cover up what might be perceived as a scummy statement with your big plan. If you had just said "sorry, I didn't think about that", I would not have found you nearly as scummy as I do now.
I would like everyone, in their next post, to summarize (or state for the first time) their opinion on faust/sudgy. Do you think they are most likely:Ok, so I'm too lazy/incompetent to do the actual math, so I'm just putting out a list based on my gut feelings of the probabilities, which might actually contradict of what I think of said players. For someone who isn't drawing strong conclusions of either players alignments from the interaction, this feels quite pointless but I understand Voltaire must be trying to get somewhere.
A) town / town
B) town / scum
C) scum / scum (bussing)
D) scum / scum (dif. teams)
Okay, I'm here. Will read and respond.
Don't forget my time zone.
so you weren't kidding here were you. Liopoil said he would post "this afternoon" (since from Idaho he still has some time left to get posts in during his "afternoon"). I have given up on NHS, and Ashersky and Yuma have been active enough they probably just haven't got around to posting for your ABCD yet, which is totally fine. People have to work, no matter how much it gets in the way of other stuff.So Voltaire, are you going to lead us?
vote: Archetype ;D
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
People have to work, no matter how much it gets in the way of other stuff.
Am I right that the only time sudgy has been mafia is LOTR1? (He was SK in Dynasty Warriors, but that's rather a different animal than the type of scum we're dealing with here.)
Robz: I get the sense your read on sudgy is informed by your experiences with him in LOTR1. Mine is definitely informed by my experiences with him in LOTR2, where he was town and I was scum, and he was lynched Day 1 for - among other things - voting specifically (and admittedly) for pressure reasons in order to get interactions going. I and my scumpartners (mail-mi, shraeye) argued this was scummy and he was lynched. We, of course, were lying.
Now, I've never read LOTR1, so perhaps you're seeing parallels there to scum!sudgy that are not obvious to me - same way as I'm seeing a parallel to town!sudgy in LOTR2 that are not obvious to you. I'll make a deal with you: you read LOTR2 sudgy, and I'll read LOTR1 sudgy. Sound good? You only have one day of activity to read while I have three, so you've got the easier end of the bargain.
Actually, LOTR1 is probably a good game for us all to look over, being a recent multiball game with two scumteams of two players each.
Apologies, I have thoughts about things, will post this afternoon
Yeah, I dont get any read on sudgy (people say things like that, usually without any grand plan.. but it's natural to want to explain it that way) and faust (understandable vote, especially if you don't consider sudgy saying what he did something that happens in almost every game by someone).
Apologies, I have thoughts about things, will post this afternoon
Did this happen? If not, FOS.
Alright everybody, you'll be seeing a lot more of me (real-world) today. Promise.
A reminder to my 8 fellow town players - you have better reads than I do, mathematically. You're all looking for 4 scum in 11. I'm looking for 4 scum in 12.
A reminder to the 4 scum players - you have better odds of lynching the other team now that I claimed. You're looking for 2 scum in 10. Sorry for taking our PR off the table. :)
I would like everyone, in their next post, to summarize (or state for the first time) their opinion on faust/sudgy. Do you think they are most likely:
A) town / town
B) town / scum
C) scum / scum (bussing)
D) scum / scum (dif. teams)
Yeah, I dont get any read on sudgy (people say things like that, usually without any grand plan.. but it's natural to want to explain it that way) and faust (understandable vote, especially if you don't consider sudgy saying what he did something that happens in almost every game by someone).
Eevee's different this game. Changing up a meta? Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads. Hmmmm...
So, you keep insisting that your statement wasn't scummy, only "controversial". Here's the thing: A statement is controversial if people have strong reactions in favor of it AND against it. It's not controversial if everyone basically agrees that it was a bad thing to say, and that's what happened.
So either your plan was flawed from the beginning because your statement wasn't what you needed it to be, or there was no plan at all and you try to cover up what might be perceived as a scummy statement with your big plan. If you had just said "sorry, I didn't think about that", I would not have found you nearly as scummy as I do now.
As for lio, I do have to mention that this is becoming a thing for him. He replaced out of M31 and generally seems like he's struggling to make time for Forum Games stuff.
There are plenty of controversial statements that very few people agree with. You can find many of them in the RSP forum.
This feels like answering to a math problem. I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player. Those are the assumptions I'd plug in to the equation, should I do the math or is this sufficient?My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
Are you closer to A, B, C, or D?
Archetype and liopoil are mega lurking.
Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
This feels like answering to a math problem. I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player. Those are the assumptions I'd plug in to the equation, should I do the math or is this sufficient?My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
Are you closer to A, B, C, or D?
There's nothing wrong or scummy in this statement, but if it was posted out of context with no author, and you asked me to guess which forum games veteran wrote it, I'd get it wrong 100 times out of 100. It's like Eevee gave his phone to someone else to answer.
This feels like answering to a math problem. I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player. Those are the assumptions I'd plug in to the equation, should I do the math or is this sufficient?My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
Are you closer to A, B, C, or D?
There's nothing wrong or scummy in this statement, but if it was posted out of context with no author, and you asked me to guess which forum games veteran wrote it, I'd get it wrong 100 times out of 100. It's like Eevee gave his phone to someone else to answer.
Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Yeah, this. I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on. I'm glad you re-mentioned it.
I'm already voting faust, though.
Robz and Voltgloss, have you done your reading assignments? Please post your subsequent thoughts on sudgy ASAP.
Robz and Voltgloss, have you done your reading assignments? Please post your subsequent thoughts on sudgy ASAP.
Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Yeah, this. I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on. I'm glad you re-mentioned it.
I'm already voting faust, though.
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
I tried to put together some thoughts on the players so far. It's hard. The strange thing about this game is everyone has an incentive to scumhunt, but that at the same time makes it harder to scumhunt. So all I got is this:
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
ashersky - town read for previously explained reasons.
Voltgloss - helps keeping the game moving, do not want to lynch
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.
sudgy - when we hadn't yet decided if the doctor should claim, he was trying to POE the doctor. Scum read.
Can we get a current vote count?It's Thursday, so I'll do one as soon as (if) I have access to a computer.
My vote was mainly for pressure, and Robz has had time to respond, so Unvote.this is pretty ordinary for town!sudgy. I seem to remember someone mentioning this as a point against him, but he has done this multiple times before.
- saying that you can rule out the people in favor of doc claiming is not scummy. I disagree with saying it though, as a person who opposed a doctor claim. However, sudgy liked the idea of doc claiming, and so it's totally fine for him to narrow the pool of people who could be the doctor if he wants. And also, scum surely figured this out anyway, so it likely had no effect. AND even if it was a catastrophic thing to say, I think he would be LESS likely to say this as scum. So I disagree with faust's vote.
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
1. Why do you think this?
2. Why did you say it?
I actually wasn't sure if it was true, but I thought a way better way to get interactions was to say something controversial and see who would jump on it. See:I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
I just reread faust, and not much sticks out (just doc talk, robz talk, and our "debacle", to use someone else's language (;))). I reread him in NMIV too, and he seemed to be trying to push discussion more there than here, which brings up his scumminess a bit.I feel like this is confirmation bias. He said himself that nothing stood out for them, but then he posted this anyway. And the arguement about the "Err..." seems really to be a stretch to me.
Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Unvote.example from banker's beware of town!sudgy voting for reactions.
The 50% of RVS was actually wanting to see ashersky's reaction. His reaction seemed towny enough to me.
Lio: The Er... thing was townpoints for him, not scumpoints.oh wow, reading fail. I kinda read the first bit about covering for scumslip, then skimmed, then "Err..." and clumsy mentioned...
And, a lot of my read on faust is not his initial voting me, but for things afterwards.
Wow, okay, I just totally missed this--and all comentary on this--until now. Makes me think I am reading really lazily.I tried to put together some thoughts on the players so far. It's hard. The strange thing about this game is everyone has an incentive to scumhunt, but that at the same time makes it harder to scumhunt. So all I got is this:
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
ashersky - town read for previously explained reasons.
Voltgloss - helps keeping the game moving, do not want to lynch
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.
sudgy - when we hadn't yet decided if the doctor should claim, he was trying to POE the doctor. Scum read.
"Do not lynch, do not kill." I read this as his advice to himself, which WOULD indicate that he is scum. It could be as simple as, these are private notes he kept for himself, and he didn't realize he hadn't properly santized them.
I mean there's no context to me where "Do not lynch, do no kill" makes any sense, apart from the one where faust is scum.
I don't think he meant it as a coded message to the other team though.
I am surprised no one has reacted to my point yet:I agree with you. I think the "It's for the other team" is a really bad cover up.Wow, okay, I just totally missed this--and all comentary on this--until now. Makes me think I am reading really lazily.I tried to put together some thoughts on the players so far. It's hard. The strange thing about this game is everyone has an incentive to scumhunt, but that at the same time makes it harder to scumhunt. So all I got is this:
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
ashersky - town read for previously explained reasons.
Voltgloss - helps keeping the game moving, do not want to lynch
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.
sudgy - when we hadn't yet decided if the doctor should claim, he was trying to POE the doctor. Scum read.
"Do not lynch, do not kill." I read this as his advice to himself, which WOULD indicate that he is scum. It could be as simple as, these are private notes he kept for himself, and he didn't realize he hadn't properly santized them.
I mean there's no context to me where "Do not lynch, do no kill" makes any sense, apart from the one where faust is scum.
I don't think he meant it as a coded message to the other team though.
I am surprised no one has reacted to my point yet:Another reading of "Do not kill" is that it is a (very) poorly worded summary of the aforementioned reasons that scum are not likely to kill the revealed doctor N1. Now what becomes suspicious is his explanation of the statement.Wow, okay, I just totally missed this--and all comentary on this--until now. Makes me think I am reading really lazily.I tried to put together some thoughts on the players so far. It's hard. The strange thing about this game is everyone has an incentive to scumhunt, but that at the same time makes it harder to scumhunt. So all I got is this:
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
ashersky - town read for previously explained reasons.
Voltgloss - helps keeping the game moving, do not want to lynch
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.
sudgy - when we hadn't yet decided if the doctor should claim, he was trying to POE the doctor. Scum read.
"Do not lynch, do not kill." I read this as his advice to himself, which WOULD indicate that he is scum. It could be as simple as, these are private notes he kept for himself, and he didn't realize he hadn't properly santized them.
I mean there's no context to me where "Do not lynch, do no kill" makes any sense, apart from the one where faust is scum.
I don't think he meant it as a coded message to the other team though.
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill himI think I should inform all scum teams not to kill me. maybe that is a useful thing to do (I think not). Telling scum teams what to do is pretty sketchy.
Alright. I pick B: Town/Scum. Mostly because it's the most likely thing for there to be. I would not mind lynching from one of these two, but I prefer faust since he's acting fairly similar to how he did in Modern Community
Vote: faust since NHS will most likely be replaced.
faust (5): ashersky, Voltgloss, sudgy, Robz888, Archetype
NHSederholm (1): Eevee
sudgy (1): faust
Voltgloss (1): yuma
Archetype (1): Voltaire
Not Voting (4): liopoil, NHSederholm, Gveoniz, 2.7
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 ends Monday November 11 at 8ish FT.
The last official vote count was the edited one in #351 back like six pages. Here's an unofficial update.Quotefaust (5): ashersky, Voltgloss, sudgy, Robz888, Archetype
NHSederholm (1): Eevee
sudgy (1): faust
Voltgloss (1): yuma
Archetype (1): Voltaire
Not Voting (4): liopoil, NHSederholm, Gveoniz, 2.7
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 ends Monday November 11 at 8ish FT.
| ashersky Voltgloss Robz888 Voltaire 2.71828..... Yuma faust sudgy Eevee liopoil Gveoniz Archetype NHSederholm | 67 55 44 43 30 28 24 16 16 15 9 8 1 |
I also like that I am voting with the doctor. (regardless of whether or not his vote was entirely serious)The last official vote count was the edited one in #351 back like six pages. Here's an unofficial update.Quotefaust (5): ashersky, Voltgloss, sudgy, Robz888, Archetype
NHSederholm (1): Eevee
sudgy (1): faust
Voltgloss (1): yuma
Archetype (1): Voltaire
Not Voting (4): liopoil, NHSederholm, Gveoniz, 2.7
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 ends Monday November 11 at 8ish FT.
You missed my vote for archetype. And a real L-2 (the Robz thing doesn't count as it was made up with a majority of RVS)
So vote: voltgloss for voting faust for finding something scummy that there should be no reason to find scummy.
Why do you say "there should be no reason to find [faust] scummy"?
Kinda... it is more that I expect scum to be somehow involved in this whole exchange... I don't see what sudgy did to be scummy nor do I see how faust reacted to be scummy and I have more of a town read on you than voltgloss from other posts and reads.
So yeah what you said is correct to an extent, but it is more that I don't think scum ignores this situation and I see voltgloss's reaction as the one to be most likely to be from scum.
I agree with you that scum is likely involved in this exchange.
How about the L-2 wagon on Robz? Do you think scum was likely involved in that exchange as well?
I would like everyone, in their next post, to summarize (or state for the first time) their opinion on faust/sudgy. Do you think they are most likely:
A) town / town
B) town / scum
C) scum / scum (bussing)
D) scum / scum (dif. teams)
So I think It would be B > D > A > C. But I am not sure right now.
I have ABCD statements from: Voltgloss, faust, 2.7, Gveoniz, Robz, sudgy, and Eevee.
I still need them from: liopoil, Archetype, ashersky, Yuma, NHSederholm
Spoiler alert: I'd like us to lynch a lurker. Freakin' post, people.
Archetype and liopoil are mega lurking.Gveoniz hasn't posted much, but he has had decent content in his posts. Archetype on the other, hasn't posted much, and hasn't had much content
Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Yeah, this. I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on. I'm glad you re-mentioned it.
I'm already voting faust, though.
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
Sadly, this is a great point. Or it's yuma defending his scumbuddy. Hm.Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Yeah, this. I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on. I'm glad you re-mentioned it.
I'm already voting faust, though.
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...A bit odd considering he did not express a strong opinion.
So I said I'd make up my mind about this in my post about sudgy. There I explained why I disagree with this vote. I think that this does lean slightly scummy because it's an easy vote to hide behind. Also it's a good example of voting over something anti-town, not something scummy.I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Here's the thing everyone is getting all excited about it seems. Most likely yet another "scumslip" I think. And by that I mean not-a-scumslip. I see Yuma pointed out it could be just a grammatical mistake from english not being his first language. That's possible, but I think it could also just be emphasizing that voltaire is one of the good guys, so we should not kill him and stuff. lynching is killing, after all. So null, <i>maybe</i> scummy.
Is a fair point, except replace "You said something scummy..." with "you said something controversial..." Sudgy already said this I think.I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
Do I read this correctly? You said something scummy so you can find people scummy for pointing out it was scummy? Now, that's a great scumhunting scheme.
I agree that there's no way that it's more likely that both are scum on different teams than both being town. However, I think it's probably the case that Gveoniz either didn't think about how both being scum is inherently less likely because there are many fewer scum, or got the letters wrong or something. Or is just too confident in his reads. I don't know, but you get the point. Which is that I don't see why it makes him more likely to be scum.So I think It would be B > D > A > C. But I am not sure right now.
This blows my mind. I can see B being before A. But no way should D be before A. No way unless Gveoniz knows something that we don't.
vote: Gveo. I am generally with Robz that I don't like lynching newer players, but this really makes me wonder (and I should mention that Gveo has played one game already, so isn't technically a true newbie)
Sadly, this is a great point. Or it's yuma defending his scumbuddy. Hm.Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Yeah, this. I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on. I'm glad you re-mentioned it.
I'm already voting faust, though.
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.
I agree with you. I think the "It's for the other team" is a really bad cover up.
Sorry everyone, here. Been fairly busy, but I'll reread and post my thoughts.
Alright. I pick B: Town/Scum. Mostly because it's the most likely thing for there to be. I would not mind lynching from one of these two, but I prefer faust since he's acting fairly similar to how he did in Modern Community
So Voltaire, are you going to lead us? Townpoints to Gveoniz and Voltgloss for digging info and sharing it with us.
Vote:NHS until further notice.
Yeah. That is a good point. However, if I was scum I'd certainly kill the claimed Doc. Maybe it's just that I've never been scum in a multiball game. But I wouldn't be all too mad if the Doc claims, but I'd rather them claim tommorow.
An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.
If Doctor claims today, they have very little information to go off of to lead Town. Tommorow they will have the D1 lynch, and the NK(s) from N1. Plus, they run the risk of being nightkilled N1 if they claim right now.
Doctor should not claim until D2. IC is useless D1.
Vote: faust since NHS will most likely be replaced.
So vote: voltgloss for voting faust for finding something scummy that there should be no reason to find scummy.
Why do you say "there should be no reason to find [faust] scummy"?
Because I don't see how what you are accusing faust of doing is scummy. He voted for someone for saying something that he perceived to be scummy. It was a very unusual statement by sudgy and I have no problem with faust voting him for it. None. Especially at the stage of the game we were then in.
I guess the counter argument could be made that I am voting you for voting someone for saying something that you perceived to be scummy. But at this point the stage of the game has changed. We have moved from basic reactions and votes to a layered game. And this is where I think the votes start to actually start to mean so much more... Like I said I think someone directly involved in the early events was mafia. I don't think it is either of the two original players (I think both are likely town) and I have more of a town read on ash, so I am suspectful of you.
Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Yeah, this. I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on. I'm glad you re-mentioned it.
I'm already voting faust, though.
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.
faust:
- was on fence regarding doctor claimNOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...A bit odd considering he did not express a strong opinion.So I said I'd make up my mind about this in my post about sudgy. There I explained why I disagree with this vote. I think that this does lean slightly scummy because it's an easy vote to hide behind. Also it's a good example of voting over something anti-town, not something scummy.I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgyVoltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Here's the thing everyone is getting all excited about it seems. Most likely yet another "scumslip" I think. And by that I mean not-a-scumslip. I see Yuma pointed out it could be just a grammatical mistake from english not being his first language. That's possible, but I think it could also just be emphasizing that voltaire is one of the good guys, so we should not kill him and stuff. lynching is killing, after all. So null, <i>maybe</i> scummy.
Robz also took faust's side when the faust/sudgy debacle started, but flipped when the "scumslip" issue took centerstage. As noted above, Robz agrees that losing your partner is bad news bears on D1, but he's also one to cut his losses earlier than expected. If Robz is faust's partner, I would expect a bus and not a protect. So, noted.
Won't lynch: ashersky, Voltaire, Robz888
ash, I agree with most of your "popsquiz" post, but there's one thing I think I'm just not understanding:Robz also took faust's side when the faust/sudgy debacle started, but flipped when the "scumslip" issue took centerstage. As noted above, Robz agrees that losing your partner is bad news bears on D1, but he's also one to cut his losses earlier than expected. If Robz is faust's partner, I would expect a bus and not a protect. So, noted.
I agree with the above. But then:Won't lynch: ashersky, Voltaire, Robz888
Robz started with defending faust, but then switched to voting him when the case on faust intensified. I think that fits the scumnarrative you've described for a Robz-faust pairing - first protecting, then a switch to bussing. So I'm not following why you have Robz in the "won't lynch" category. Am I missing something?
I'm going off to read sudgy in LOTR 1 now. If I post here again without giving my thoughts on that, somebody yell at me to get back to my homework.
So I've reviewed LOTR 1. My thoughts on scum!sudgy's behavior there, to the extent germane to this game:
- He spent most of Day 1 looking for defensible places to put his vote.
- He reacted defensively and aggressively to a town player (raerae) building a case on him, by seeking to build a case on raerae (for "semitunneling") and arguing for her scummitude for pretty much the rest of the game.
- He made effort trying to figure out where other people were leaning lynchwise, apparently so his own joining that wagon to push it through wouldn't draw attention.
- He did not pull any self-endangering gambits. He played very, in my eyes, "safe."
The sudgy I'm seeing in this game feels a lot more like LOTR 2 town!sudgy then LOTR 1 scum!sudgy.
Robz, your thoughts on LOTR 2?
But you see how explicit pressure-voting to get reactions is a town!sudgy trait, as evinced by LOTR2, right? That's my main point with respect to bringing up LOTR2.
I agree sudgy here isn't nearly as active as he was in LOTR2, but I'm not sure how much of that should be chalked up to his alignment vs. how much pressure he himself was getting in LOTR2.
Do you think this is sudgy is closer to LOTR1 scum!sudgy?
But the original discussion was, sudgy voted for me, and later said it was a pressure vote. I said I didn't believe that it was.
After reading LOTR2, I see that it was a pressure vote! is a very sudgy explanation for what he did, and may have been deliberate rather than a coverup.
So, fine. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though.
But the original discussion was, sudgy voted for me, and later said it was a pressure vote. I said I didn't believe that it was.
After reading LOTR2, I see that it was a pressure vote! is a very sudgy explanation for what he did, and may have been deliberate rather than a coverup.
So, fine. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though.
OK. We are roughly on the same page then.
But the original discussion was, sudgy voted for me, and later said it was a pressure vote. I said I didn't believe that it was.
After reading LOTR2, I see that it was a pressure vote! is a very sudgy explanation for what he did, and may have been deliberate rather than a coverup.
So, fine. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though.
OK. We are roughly on the same page then.
Have you weighed in on "Do not lynch, do not kill" yet?
So I think It would be B > D > A > C. But I am not sure right now.Really, D > A? You know the statistical probability of D (from your perspective, assuming you're town) is 7.2%, and that of A 38.2%? You'd need to be pretty darn confident in your reads to think that D is more likely than A.
So I think It would be B > D > A > C. But I am not sure right now.This blows my mind. I can see B being before A. But no way should D be before A. No way unless Gveoniz knows something that we don't.
vote: Gveo. I am generally with Robz that I don't like lynching newer players, but this really makes me wonder (and I should mention that Gveo has played one game already, so isn't technically a true newbie)
Other notes:
Regarding ABCD: For everyone that is not me, sudgy or Voltaire, generic probabilities split like this:
B - 50.9 %
A - 38.2 %
D - 7.3 %
C - 3.6 %
Everyone who didn't order them like this should have a good reason to, especially people who put D above A (I'm looking at Gveoniz and ashersky here).
Lynch pool:
Want to lynch: sudgy, Robz
Would lynch: Eevee, liopoil, Voltgloss, Gveoniz
Not so interested in lynching: ashersky, yuma, Archetype, NHS
Won't lynch: Voltaire, e
Overall: I actually don't think it is of great importance for us to lynch scum today (in fact, we might be better off lynching town). As announced in the V/LA thread, I won't be around until Sunday, so I'd appreciate it if you gave me a chance to comment on stuff that happened over the weekend before you lynch me.
That seems really weak. I don't have the history with faust to comment on his English speaking abilities, but the difference in "Do not kill" and "isn't going to be killed" is big enough that I seriously doubt a language mistake, more just a poor word choice. (scumslip?) Yuma covering in this way is a little suspect, as Robz pointed out.Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.
@2.7: I think it's more likely that yuma is scum, actually. In a two man scumteam I'd fight hard for my partner if he scumslipped.Ok, sure you would want to protect your partner. But this early? I know its Friday and not much will get done over the weekend so right now may be the best time for a defence, but if my partner was the target of an early wagon, I would prefer to keep my distance and hope it dissipates as the wagon on sudgy did.
So are you willing to jump on one of those wagons and give more reasons that I asked for, or are you hoping the wagon dissipates? Maybe that is my inexperience talking.In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.Sadly, this is a great point. Or it's yuma defending his scumbuddy. Hm.
Very concerned by 2.7's trying to get me lynched. Not neccerssarily because it's me he's trying to start a wagon on (but that does play a big part) but more of him being a newbie and doing something like this. What he said awhile ago about "Voting alongside the Doctor" certainly rubbed me the wrong way.Is that trying to discredit what I am saying simply because I am new? Voltaire's vote for Archetype looked completely RVS to my newbie eyes, and maybe it is too late in the day to be making a joke, but that was primarily what that was. Now as Voltaire posted, he would be in favor of lynching a lurker, so he may in fact be in favor of lynching Archetype, but I would need further confirmation before I take his vote as anything but a joke.
Our lynch deadline is Monday night, isn't it?
Our lynch deadline is Monday night, isn't it?
Yes. I will be hard V/LA from late this afternoon to sometime Sunday. No lynching anyone while I am gone unless someone claims scum. We'll still have time to put a lynch through early Monday after I'm back.
Robz, it's a bit unclear - did you actually re-read scum!sudgy in LOTR1, or are you just going off memory?
Our lynch deadline is Monday night, isn't it?
Yes. I will be hard V/LA from late this afternoon to sometime Sunday. No lynching anyone while I am gone unless someone claims scum. We'll still have time to put a lynch through early Monday after I'm back.
Robz, it's a bit unclear - did you actually re-read scum!sudgy in LOTR1, or are you just going off memory?
No I didn't re-read it, jeez. I don't have time for that, and what would be the point? I have like two other, more recent games in which to reference sudgy's behavior.
You all seem to keep forgetting that we share a common enemy with each scum team - the other scum team! We're all scumhunting here, so if I give out directions for all scumhunters ("do not lynch"), I might as well give directions to a subgroup of scum hunters ("do not kill"). Are they gonna listen to me? Probably no. But is that a reason not to write it?
More importantly, the scum narrative for me seems to be "he wanted to remind himself not to kill the doctor". Now look back at what I said regarding the doctor claiming. It should be abundantly clear from this that as scum, I would be really happy to kill the doctor as soon as one of the other scum is dead, which could already be tonight. So even if you think that I would slip like that (and I have yet to see a case where someone was correctly caught after a "scumslip"), it doesn't make sense because that's not even what my opinion as scum would be.
Just checking.
After re-reading actual scum!sudgy in LOTR1, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to find sudgy scummy for his behavior in this game. His play here is consistent with his town meta, even if it is a smaller version of it. I am not saying that sudgy is town, but I am saying that I am seeing weak, at best, reasons for him to be scum.
Just checking.
After re-reading actual scum!sudgy in LOTR1, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to find sudgy scummy for his behavior in this game. His play here is consistent with his town meta, even if it is a smaller version of it. I am not saying that sudgy is town, but I am saying that I am seeing weak, at best, reasons for him to be scum.
I don't think sudgy is the most likely scum either at this point, but... come on, his self-proclaimed town meta is like the easiest one to replicate ever. He's just doing a very, very poor imitation here of what he did in LOTR2.
Just checking.
After re-reading actual scum!sudgy in LOTR1, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to find sudgy scummy for his behavior in this game. His play here is consistent with his town meta, even if it is a smaller version of it. I am not saying that sudgy is town, but I am saying that I am seeing weak, at best, reasons for him to be scum.
I don't think sudgy is the most likely scum either at this point, but... come on, his self-proclaimed town meta is like the easiest one to replicate ever. He's just doing a very, very poor imitation here of what he did in LOTR2.
Then why didn't he try to do that in LOTR1?
Overall: I actually don't think it is of great importance for us to lynch scum today (in fact, we might be better off lynching town).
And also, I don't know why we are falling back to these two old RMM games to explain sudgy, when we have two much more recent sudgy games.
I don't play RMM games anymore, but MY RMM "meta" was to just lurk hardcore through them until later days. What if I just straight up lurked today, and said, "Hey that's just my meta, remember?" Would this hold any water whatsoever? I don't know why it should for sudgy.
And also, I don't know why we are falling back to these two old RMM games to explain sudgy, when we have two much more recent sudgy games.
I don't play RMM games anymore, but MY RMM "meta" was to just lurk hardcore through them until later days. What if I just straight up lurked today, and said, "Hey that's just my meta, remember?" Would this hold any water whatsoever? I don't know why it should for sudgy.
It'd be anti-town but not necessarily scummy.
Do we have any more recent scum!sudgy games? That's what's important here.
Dynasty Warriors.
So I've reviewed LOTR 1. My thoughts on scum!sudgy's behavior there, to the extent germane to this game:
- He spent most of Day 1 looking for defensible places to put his vote.
- He reacted defensively and aggressively to a town player (raerae) building a case on him, by seeking to build a case on raerae (for "semitunneling") and arguing for her scummitude for pretty much the rest of the game.
- He made effort trying to figure out where other people were leaning lynchwise, apparently so his own joining that wagon to push it through wouldn't draw attention.
- He did not pull any self-endangering gambits. He played very, in my eyes, "safe."
The sudgy I'm seeing in this game feels a lot more like LOTR 2 town!sudgy then LOTR 1 scum!sudgy.
Robz, your thoughts on LOTR 2?
Yup, and everyone opposed to the plan is scum. Out yourselves, scum.
Are they though? The weird thing about this plan is that noone really has strong incentive to oppose it. It helps town by reducing the lynch pool, it helps scum by reducing their NK pool.
... this has me worried a little. I think an outed doctor will die as soon as one scum team has the upper hand. If it's two scum A/one scum B/town, scum B won't shoot the doctor, they need to hit scum A. Scum A can safely shoot the doctor, and that's good for them, because they don't want a reduced lynch pool at this point (and they don't have much incentive to shoot scum B because that would mean one NK less and thus a longer game).
I'm not so sure anymore that this doctor claim is really a good idea.
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...
Jimmmmm: I had a plan that he somewhat fell into (I made a controversial (but not scummy) statement and he jumped on it saying it was scummy), his reaction to it seemed scummy, and there -might- be a scumslip with his saying "do not kill".
Wow, okay, I just totally missed this--and all comentary on this--until now. Makes me think I am reading really lazily.I tried to put together some thoughts on the players so far. It's hard. The strange thing about this game is everyone has an incentive to scumhunt, but that at the same time makes it harder to scumhunt. So all I got is this:
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
ashersky - town read for previously explained reasons.
Voltgloss - helps keeping the game moving, do not want to lynch
Robz - always seems scummy to me, and here as well. He behaved differently from what I expected of him in this game, but I can't evaluate what that means yet.
sudgy - when we hadn't yet decided if the doctor should claim, he was trying to POE the doctor. Scum read.
"Do not lynch, do not kill." I read this as his advice to himself, which WOULD indicate that he is scum. It could be as simple as, these are private notes he kept for himself, and he didn't realize he hadn't properly santized them.
I mean there's no context to me where "Do not lynch, do no kill" makes any sense, apart from the one where faust is scum.
I don't think he meant it as a coded message to the other team though.
Jimmmmm: I had a plan that he somewhat fell into (I made a controversial (but not scummy) statement and he jumped on it saying it was scummy), his reaction to it seemed scummy, and there -might- be a scumslip with his saying "do not kill".
What was the statement?
Jimmmmm: I had a plan that he somewhat fell into (I made a controversial (but not scummy) statement and he jumped on it saying it was scummy), his reaction to it seemed scummy, and there -might- be a scumslip with his saying "do not kill".
What was the statement?
We were talking about if the doctor should claim or not, and I started trying to POE the doctor (only to see if someone would jump on it).
Jimmmmm: I had a plan that he somewhat fell into (I made a controversial (but not scummy) statement and he jumped on it saying it was scummy), his reaction to it seemed scummy, and there -might- be a scumslip with his saying "do not kill".
What was the statement?
We were talking about if the doctor should claim or not, and I started trying to POE the doctor (only to see if someone would jump on it).
Yeah I thought it was just that. Seriously? That's such a minor, non-controversial thing to say. The controversial thing is whether or not it's best for the Doctor to claim. If the majority think it is, of course PoEing is possible and will be done by scum.
This feels like answering to a math problem. I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player. Those are the assumptions I'd plug in to the equation, should I do the math or is this sufficient?My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
Are you closer to A, B, C, or D?
There's nothing wrong or scummy in this statement, but if it was posted out of context with no author, and you asked me to guess which forum games veteran wrote it, I'd get it wrong 100 times out of 100. It's like Eevee gave his phone to someone else to answer.
This two scum team situation is so weird.. I absolutely agree with not giving scum free information, hence being firmly against it at first. Then I realized that we have a common enemy with both scum teams (the other scum team). It all comes back to which side is the favorite here. Take one townie out pregame, town would be in such a rough spot, scum would surely prioritize killing each other instead of going after us. Here, I'm not sure.
One thing is that if the doctor manages to live until the end unclaimed, it's a real power role. Any kind of claiming makes that small chance even smaller.
You all seem to keep forgetting that we share a common enemy with each scum team - the other scum team! We're all scumhunting here, so if I give out directions for all scumhunters ("do not lynch"), I might as well give directions to a subgroup of scum hunters ("do not kill"). Are they gonna listen to me? Probably no. But is that a reason not to write it?
More importantly, the scum narrative for me seems to be "he wanted to remind himself not to kill the doctor". Now look back at what I said regarding the doctor claiming. It should be abundantly clear from this that as scum, I would be really happy to kill the doctor as soon as one of the other scum is dead, which could already be tonight. So even if you think that I would slip like that (and I have yet to see a case where someone was correctly caught after a "scumslip"), it doesn't make sense because that's not even what my opinion as scum would be.
Rules don't say explicitly so I assume the usual: no lynch.
Robz, aren't you a "there's no such thing as scumslips" guy?
I don't remember ever having a "there's no such thing as scumslips" stance, so you must be remembering someone else.
Also, faust was talking about me with his "do not kill", right? I'm seeing some posts which seem to imply people think faust was talking about himself.
Welcome back Jimmmmm.
Why vote me?
I made several case posts on Faust (and Eevee). Nice catch on wording. I bet we see that same language in their scum QT.
I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...
That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!
Vote: sudgy
I tried to put together some thoughts on the players so far. It's hard. The strange thing about this game is everyone has an incentive to scumhunt, but that at the same time makes it harder to scumhunt. So all I got is this:
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.
Overall: I actually don't think it is of great importance for us to lynch scum today (in fact, we might be better off lynching town).What do you mean that "we might be better off lynching town" That just seems absurd. I don't really see a situation where lynching town is a good thing. There is a reason it is called a "mis-lynch" when you lynch a member of the town. However, this doesn't really read like a scum-slip to me, just something that was not really thought out. Is faust trying to build some sort of meta about "not-really-thought-out" posts. I mean, he has another one this game:
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...which he explains as "as soon as one scum team is killed" which is a reasonable misgiving about the doctor reveal. But he didn't say it that way.
While your two original quotes are what sparked the discussion, what he said after them and explaining himself is the biggest thing.True. His lack of a solid defense for the statement was really what gave the wagon some wheels.
@2.7: I think it's more likely that yuma is scum, actually. In a two man scumteam I'd fight hard for my partner if he scumslipped.
Also, there's this:Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
Yeah, this. I remember thinking this was super bad when it happened, but we moved on. I'm glad you re-mentioned it.
I'm already voting faust, though.
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
In all honesty when I saw this I thought it was a language mistake. Faust is from Germany yes? His grammar is generally pretty good (as is almost all of our non-native-English speaking players) but sometimes makes mistakes. I thought this was one of them which basically meant to be said "isn't going to be killed" which is probably true as it is the whole premise for why we had the doc claim.
Ouch, don't like this at all. I mean if faust had said it was a language mistake, that would be one thing. But I've generally thought him grammar is perfect, and would not have chalked it up to language myself. If he had proposed this explanation I might have said okay. This actually does rub me as scum defending scum buddy. Well I know that's getting ahead of myself x a billion. But I don't think this was a grammar mistake, and don't like yuma covering for faust in this way prior to faust explaining himself.
I told you so. I am going to PM myself the link to this post so that I can quote it from here on out when someone tries to convince me that something was a "slip." Because they aren't.
And now we have a dead townie, a dead cop, and ashersky is dead (probably a townie). And voltgloss's flip did nothing for us. How can I tell? Because right now no one is talking about who was where or volt's wagon or who had opinions about volt's wagon. Why? Because there isn't anything to talk about. That situation is the same as theory--a person is going to react to it exactly the same as town or as mafia, thus it isn't useful for scum hunting. Anything you try to get out of it is a major stretch.
Mostly I am extremely frustrated. My reads are exactly the same as they were before volt's <i>slip</b>. Meaning... probably not very good. I have spoken in the past about how much I rely on that day1 flip to solidify my reads and how much better they are after the context of a flip. And right now, I don't have that. So. Thanks. Good job town.
Additional thought for the yuma/faust scumpairing: Not only has yuma defended faust - and in an "explaining things for him" way that I find scummy (I think town!yuma would want faust to explain things himself) - but yuma has also made a standard scum defensive move: trying to get another wagon going. By which I mean the vote on Gveoniz, someone that hasn't really been considered yet. That could very easily be scum!yuma hoping to distract us.
I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
wait I have something to run by you
The quote above was a hypothetical. If faust is scum, I think that you defending him like you did would be more likely a scum covering their partner.@2.7: I think it's more likely that yuma is scum, actually. In a two man scumteam I'd fight hard for my partner if he scumslipped.
How can you say this w/o knowing faust's alignment... I really didnt' want to vote for you arch. Because you are constantly mislynched... but is these sort of things that sometimes force my hand. Seriously... do you see that these sort of things make you look scummy? Or do you think that we are just a bunch of dummies who keep mislynching you. Someone is to blame, I thought that it might have just been f.ds getting you wrong, but now I am thinking that a lot of the blame falls on you for being a scummy player when town, you have to take some responsibility for that... so I guess I won't vote for you, but maybe you are scum this time?
Yuma, my main thing isn't the "slip", it's all the other stuff.
If you think I'm scum, then vote for me. They're your reads, man.
Not in favor of this. I've said it before, but scum will kill the Doctor. That's a player who's guaranteed to not be protected. Sure they could collide the opposite scumteam, but if I were scum I'd be willing to take the risk. And if the players were divided into Town to be protected/Town to not be protected I'd risk shooting into the "To be protected" (well, if the group is large enough) because there is likely a reason (read: strong player) that they'd be potentially protected.I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
wait I have something to run by you
I was musing about something.
So we have a confirmed doc and two mafia teams. I was wondering if we can figure out a way to use the scum team's night kills to our advantage.
My thought was this.
What if voltaire gives out a list of say 4-5 players that he is 100% not going to protect during the night. That means that if mafia targets that player they don't have to worry about a doctor protection. yes this means a kill goes through, but it would go through on a player(s) that we are suspicious of as a town and that would have a high chance of being lynched the next day? That way we can kinda use the mafia NK as a semi-town Vig. Or else mafia will have to risk killing a player that might be protected by the doc?
Not in favor of this. I've said it before, but scum will kill the Doctor. That's a player who's guaranteed to not be protected. Sure they could collide the opposite scumteam, but if I were scum I'd be willing to take the risk. And if the players were divided into Town to be protected/Town to not be protected I'd risk shooting into the "To be protected" (well, if the group is large enough) because there is likely a reason (read: strong player) that they'd be potentially protected.I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
wait I have something to run by you
I was musing about something.
So we have a confirmed doc and two mafia teams. I was wondering if we can figure out a way to use the scum team's night kills to our advantage.
My thought was this.
What if voltaire gives out a list of say 4-5 players that he is 100% not going to protect during the night. That means that if mafia targets that player they don't have to worry about a doctor protection. yes this means a kill goes through, but it would go through on a player(s) that we are suspicious of as a town and that would have a high chance of being lynched the next day? That way we can kinda use the mafia NK as a semi-town Vig. Or else mafia will have to risk killing a player that might be protected by the doc?
I think we're being a little too optimistic about the scumteams helping us kill themselves.
Not in favor of this. I've said it before, but scum will kill the Doctor. That's a player who's guaranteed to not be protected. Sure they could collide the opposite scumteam, but if I were scum I'd be willing to take the risk. And if the players were divided into Town to be protected/Town to not be protected I'd risk shooting into the "To be protected" (well, if the group is large enough) because there is likely a reason (read: strong player) that they'd be potentially protected.I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
wait I have something to run by you
I was musing about something.
So we have a confirmed doc and two mafia teams. I was wondering if we can figure out a way to use the scum team's night kills to our advantage.
My thought was this.
What if voltaire gives out a list of say 4-5 players that he is 100% not going to protect during the night. That means that if mafia targets that player they don't have to worry about a doctor protection. yes this means a kill goes through, but it would go through on a player(s) that we are suspicious of as a town and that would have a high chance of being lynched the next day? That way we can kinda use the mafia NK as a semi-town Vig. Or else mafia will have to risk killing a player that might be protected by the doc?
I think we're being a little too optimistic about the scumteams helping us kill themselves.
Weird, weird post. Sounds like you are one of the scum teams trying to give the other team advice.
hmmm. I can get that it seems inevitable that he would be lynched anyway... but what's the benefit of it happening now? you say that the timing of D2 is just a small part... what's the rest?also, not-furious-rage because well I did want him lynched anyway. But if I was faust (regardless of his alignment), I would be angry. Still, this is not my preferred method.
Our lynch deadline is Monday night, isn't it?
Yes. I will be hard V/LA from late this afternoon to sometime Sunday. No lynching anyone while I am gone unless someone claims scum. We'll still have time to put a lynch through early Monday after I'm back.
Robz, it's a bit unclear - did you actually re-read scum!sudgy in LOTR1, or are you just going off memory?
Oh wow... I missed that. (though I was not suggesting we should lynch him now of course) Yuma, explanation?Our lynch deadline is Monday night, isn't it?
Yes. I will be hard V/LA from late this afternoon to sometime Sunday. No lynching anyone while I am gone unless someone claims scum. We'll still have time to put a lynch through early Monday after I'm back.
Robz, it's a bit unclear - did you actually re-read scum!sudgy in LOTR1, or are you just going off memory?
As announced in the V/LA thread, I won't be around until Sunday, so I'd appreciate it if you gave me a chance to comment on stuff that happened over the weekend before you lynch me.ninja'd
not quite actually. Faust will be unhappy thoughAs announced in the V/LA thread, I won't be around until Sunday, so I'd appreciate it if you gave me a chance to comment on stuff that happened over the weekend before you lynch me.ninja'd
Oh wow... I missed that. (though I was not suggesting we should lynch him now of course) Yuma, explanation?Our lynch deadline is Monday night, isn't it?
Yes. I will be hard V/LA from late this afternoon to sometime Sunday. No lynching anyone while I am gone unless someone claims scum. We'll still have time to put a lynch through early Monday after I'm back.
Robz, it's a bit unclear - did you actually re-read scum!sudgy in LOTR1, or are you just going off memory?
Yuma needs the town cred from hammering his scum partner, right?
There is seriously no reason to cut the day so short. I'd at least like to know faust's reads.
Well...yeah but I'm still interested in what he has to say.There is seriously no reason to cut the day so short. I'd at least like to know faust's reads.
Why? reads from dead players are notoriously unreliable and basically not worth anything as they dont' take into consideration NKs and just get worse with time after that.
It is a system that we have in place that is rather silly and antiquated and really only exists to allow players to claim a PR--but we needent' worry about that in this game now do we?
nights last 48 hours (at least) generallyoh. I just looked back at the first post. 48 hours. I could have done that before I posted
nights last 48 hours (at least) generallyoh. I just looked back at the first post. 48 hours. I could have done that before I posted
Ok. Thanks for the info. I probably could have looked all that up, I was just a little lazy. I am out now, see you all D2 (or most of you...or you won't see me...or something)nights last 48 hours (at least) generallyoh. I just looked back at the first post. 48 hours. I could have done that before I posted
its fair, and mail-mi also has a system in place that I developed in which all players have to check in during the night before the start of day or else the day won't start. So if a player is VLA and can't check in, then the day won't start (although I have adapted my rule that if a player has a PR and goes on VLA they need to submit an action before leaving for VLA, but I don't know if mail-mi is using that adaption)
I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.If we're going to scumhunt based on kills, I think a more effective way would be to look at who suspected voltgloss/ashersky.
and who they suspected as well?I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.If we're going to scumhunt based on kills, I think a more effective way would be to look at who suspected voltgloss/ashersky.
you mean who voltgloss/ashersky suspected? sure, that could work, but I think scum is more likely to shoot based on who they think the other scum are than who they want dead.and who they suspected as well?I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.If we're going to scumhunt based on kills, I think a more effective way would be to look at who suspected voltgloss/ashersky.
I really don't get the ashersky NK. I had a really clear town read on ash, and if the mafia wanted to target town members (rather than the other mafia team like we thought they might) then they could have easily just gone after Voltaire who I have an even stronger town read on. And a Voltaire NK would have rid them of the doctor.Yeah, I didn't suspect ash either. but maybe someone did...
So either the mafia developed a hunch somewhere along the way that Ash was mafia and just playing a such a great town game that he had everyone confused, or they deliberately targeted town members.
But this is a case where looking at who ash suspected is likely more effective, because I doubt anyone voiced suspicion of ashersky.I really don't get the ashersky NK. I had a really clear town read on ash, and if the mafia wanted to target town members (rather than the other mafia team like we thought they might) then they could have easily just gone after Voltaire who I have an even stronger town read on. And a Voltaire NK would have rid them of the doctor.Yeah, I didn't suspect ash either. but maybe someone did...
So either the mafia developed a hunch somewhere along the way that Ash was mafia and just playing a such a great town game that he had everyone confused, or they deliberately targeted town members.
I really don't get the ashersky NK. I had a really clear town read on ash, and if the mafia wanted to target town members (rather than the other mafia team like we thought they might) then they could have easily just gone after Voltaire who I have an even stronger town read on. And a Voltaire NK would have rid them of the doctor.
So either the mafia developed a hunch somewhere along the way that Ash was mafia and just playing a such a great town game that he had everyone confused, or they deliberately targeted town members.
I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.
I hugely disagree it was the dumbest thing ever. Faust had a scummy statement that he failed to give any mitigating explanation for whatsoever.
hmmm... hmmm... (there isn't a need to state intent to hammer lio. None at all...)
hammer time. faust is getting lynched anyways, that is pretty obvious. Maybe I am completely wrong about faust. I hate the idea of a player getting lynched two days in a row. But sometimes that is just the way it is.
But he is going to get lynched today. I don't really like it, but that's how it goes, so why prolong the inevitable....
vote: faust
Now at least day2 will be going when I am around a bit more (note... this isn't why I am doing this, but is certainly a small, but very selfish part.
I'm back again... but not for all that long and I will only have phone access tomorrow. I should have popped in earlier today.
[bunch of other stuff]
Vote: faust. I'm sure enough that he is my preferred lynch now. And I don't have see why putting him at L-1 is a bad thing. However, reminder, This is L-1. Do not hammer without stating intent prior and giving everyone a chance to weigh in if possible.
Alright. I pick B: Town/Scum. Mostly because it's the most likely thing for there to be. I would not mind lynching from one of these two, but I prefer faust since he's acting fairly similar to how he did in Modern Community
Vote: faust since NHS will most likely be replaced.
I hugely disagree it was the dumbest thing ever. Faust had a scummy statement that he failed to give any mitigating explanation for whatsoever.
No, faust had a statement no scum would ever make. It was not a scummy statement. sudgy's "trap" was of mediocre quality. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. There was no damn reason to quicklynch faust and it was absolutely not true that he was the "only" lynch we would arrive at. Because tonight what should be happening is that it's the end of D1, I declare a faust lynch off the table and offer up those who think he is scum as the lynch candidates, and we see who is willing to listen to me/who thinks I am on the right track, and take it from there. Now we have to do that today, and two townies are dead.
Rage vote: yuma. The faust lynch was (almost) the dumbest fucking thing ever. I wanted to get everyone on the table to see who wanted to out themselves as willing to mislynch. Why do you think I was doing ABCD? I am only voting for someone on the faust wagon today.Heh, yeah sorry I forgot about that. It's up now tho.
Speaking of which, can we please get an official final votecount mail-mi? I don't see one.
Whatever.Vote: Robz
That looks like a simple acceptance of a explanation. More town than scum (especially newish player who doesn't want to cause too much controversy). So, even without any real input from Jimmmm, for my little thinking through we haveI guess your explanation is reasonable, still feel really strange though.Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
But wait! Jimmmmm was also a "newbie" when roles were assigned (NHS), and I don't see more than one newbie being put as mafia. And Gveoniz has seemed towny to me.
ok. I wasn't really sure about this, and nothing I read really said too much one way or another (probably just didn't look hard enough). I didn't place Jimmmmm with a lot of confidence, but to fill out the positions he seemed to fit there. However, I do not think he would have been on the team to NK ashersky. This sticks out too much:But wait! Jimmmmm was also a "newbie" when roles were assigned (NHS), and I don't see more than one newbie being put as mafia. And Gveoniz has seemed towny to me.
I don't have any comment on your whole post but this. Mods don't choose who is mafia, they do it randomly. Of course, odds are more vets will be scum than newbies, but you get my point.
Hi all! So I'm a little way towards being caught up, halfway or less.
My first impression is Vote: ashersky.
I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.So you are narrowing our scumpool down to 3 for this round. Ambitious.
And my plan worked perfectly. Vote: faust
I don't get this... your plan worked perfectly, in baiting someone to find you scummy which then tells nothing about your alignment. I don't find sudgy scummy for this as some people have... but I certainly don't find faust scummy....
Maybe I find the people who are finding faust scummy to be scummy? Who is that? voltgloss, ashersky and sudgy, so actually not that many people. And volt and ash were more on my townread of things leading up to this, ash based more off meta, volt based off activity (which is really a null read for him in all honesty)...
So vote: voltgloss for voting faust for finding something scummy that there should be no reason to find scummy. Plus it means I am no longer voting for the claimed Doc!
It also looks like he is using this as a reason to continue to find him scummy after he had to abandon some reasons before. I dont' know if this in itself is scummy... but is something I noticed in my reread.
Hi all! So I'm a little way towards being caught up, halfway or less.
My first impression is Vote: ashersky.
1) He was like razor focused on a scum Day 1 (we will need to check)
2) It's new people who didn't know not to kill him (the problem here is that would definitely single out Gveoniz and 2.7, but 2.7 seems acutely aware that killing ash does not make sense)
3) Scum team just really didn't want to duplicate kill with other scum team
Not in favor of this. I've said it before, but scum will kill the Doctor. That's a player who's guaranteed to not be protected. Sure they could collide the opposite scumteam, but if I were scum I'd be willing to take the risk. And if the players were divided into Town to be protected/Town to not be protected I'd risk shooting into the "To be protected" (well, if the group is large enough) because there is likely a reason (read: strong player) that they'd be potentially protected.I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
wait I have something to run by you
I was musing about something.
So we have a confirmed doc and two mafia teams. I was wondering if we can figure out a way to use the scum team's night kills to our advantage.
My thought was this.
What if voltaire gives out a list of say 4-5 players that he is 100% not going to protect during the night. That means that if mafia targets that player they don't have to worry about a doctor protection. yes this means a kill goes through, but it would go through on a player(s) that we are suspicious of as a town and that would have a high chance of being lynched the next day? That way we can kinda use the mafia NK as a semi-town Vig. Or else mafia will have to risk killing a player that might be protected by the doc?
I think we're being a little too optimistic about the scumteams helping us kill themselves.
Weird, weird post. Sounds like you are one of the scum teams trying to give the other team advice.
I am... Hey Ice Mafia shoot Robz or Voltgloss during Night1 ok?
Or... maybe I am trying to find a way to optimize this setup toward town.
I went back to look now, and seems the thing I was recalling was nothing Voltgloss said himself - it was the fact yuma suspected him day 1, which isn't something I'd expect to happen. No idea what to make of that though.I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.
What were they?
I am... Hey Ice Mafia shoot Robz or Voltgloss during Night1 ok?
Or... maybe I am trying to find a way to optimize this setup toward town.
Revisited this while reading, but don't quite understand this post, can anyone explain this to me? (note that voltgloss is killed but he is burnt to death by Fire Mafia instead of Ice Mafia)
I'm wanting to at least stay caught up, and you guys are very lurky. Three posts?I agree. Everyone has posted at least once except Jimmmm, and
FYI I'm quite sick at the moment so I don't really have the headspace for games. I'll keep you updated.so that is excusable and we all hope he gets better
e, why do you say that we felt Voltgloss and ash were considered more-or-less town reads on D1? Also, when do you mean that we realized faust was a mislynch?
andHow much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?
You ask a lot of questions. Any answers to offer up?
Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt. FYI.
I always ask a lot of questions. And I think they're important questions to consider. I'm trying to work through them myself.
I think town!Voltgloss makes more statements of opinion, though.
I think town!Voltgloss asks a lot of questions.
I just read this D1 a little closer, and stumbled upon this:Though, here's a caveat I just thought of: if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on. Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.
So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out. At that point, though, they are marked for death.
Great point that I missed. Definitely helps narrow scum's kill pool at night if they are shooting for the other team. (Hint: they should be.)
Interesting. If ash was scum, he would have certainly thought about the consequences of his plan for scum, and he says here that he hasn't done that. So is there a reason to withhold that thought for scum!ash? I don't think so. This gives me a town read on ash.
So here are who I think should be our lynch candidates: the (living) faust voters + Jimmmmm.Not sure I like this. You're pretty much giving e, Gveo, and Eevee free passes just for staying off the wagon. While I think in general someone on wagon is more suspicious than one off wagon, that is not the only thing we have to go on, and it's different for different people. For instance, we absolutely cannot look at the way Yuma got on-wagon in the same way that sudgy got on the wagon.
sudgy, Robz888, Archetype, liopoil, yuma, (Jimmmmm)
Jimmmmm goes back in because he no longer gets a NHS pass.
Scum do not know who is town in this setup any more than we do. My theory holds.right, that's the point. Those three suspected faust less than the rest of us. This may be because they are town with a good read... or scum with a good read. Not indicative of which one it is.
I wouldn't say I was town with a good read (because I am definitely not scum with a good read) but rather that I was trusting in our previous pre-doctor claiming discussion. The essence of the argument that I got was scum are hunting other scum so the doctor will remain relatively safe until one scum-team is eliminated.Scum do not know who is town in this setup any more than we do. My theory holds.right, that's the point. Those three suspected faust less than the rest of us. This may be because they are town with a good read... or scum with a good read. Not indicative of which one it is.
So you aren't town who had a good read. Instead, you are either town-who-wanted-scum-to-kill-faust, or lying-scum-who-had-a-good-read, or scum-who-was-planning-to-kill-faust. The point is it doesn't say much about your alignment.I wouldn't say I was town with a good read (because I am definitely not scum with a good read) but rather that I was trusting in our previous pre-doctor claiming discussion. The essence of the argument that I got was scum are hunting other scum so the doctor will remain relatively safe until one scum-team is eliminated.Scum do not know who is town in this setup any more than we do. My theory holds.right, that's the point. Those three suspected faust less than the rest of us. This may be because they are town with a good read... or scum with a good read. Not indicative of which one it is.
Now, I was hoping that the scum would NK along that reasoning, and thus hoping to lynch someone who was lurking and just didn't quite feel right to me (read: archetype) and let the mafia teams target those people who were touted as "scum" D1 (sudgy, faust, and yuma being the three most talked about candidates from D1)
I clearly mis-read the mafia (whoever they are) because I wasn't getting those scummy feelings about Ash or Volt and we ended up losing them. So basically I did have a scumish read on faust, but I wanted to let the mafia do the dirty work during the night.
I agree with Voltaire, and not only because I know myself to be town.
Scum wants nothing more than towncred for lynching scum of the opposite team. I think because of that, it's natural they would be more wagon-happy than townies.
Now that I think of it, I'm also developing suspicions of people who joined the lynched convinced by the scum slip. How many times does this need to happen before people learn? Applies especially to more veteran players - we are building a good pile of evidence to the theory that "only town scumslip, because scum is more careful in their posting".
I don't remember who else but Robz was vocal about the wording making no sense for anyone but scum, but scum points for that. I actually feel bad for not supporting yuma earlier for being the voice of reason yesterday, I was fighting to stay caught up all the time and never really developed a strong read on faust. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.
Rage vote: yuma. The faust lynch was (almost) the dumbest fucking thing ever. I wanted to get everyone on the table to see who wanted to out themselves as willing to mislynch. Why do you think I was doing ABCD? I am only voting for someone on the faust wagon today.
Speaking of which, can we please get an official final votecount mail-mi? I don't see one.
Why the derphammer, yuma?
I hugely disagree it was the dumbest thing ever. Faust had a scummy statement that he failed to give any mitigating explanation for whatsoever.
No, faust had a statement no scum would ever make. It was not a scummy statement. sudgy's "trap" was of mediocre quality. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. There was no damn reason to quicklynch faust and it was absolutely not true that he was the "only" lynch we would arrive at. Because tonight what should be happening is that it's the end of D1, I declare a faust lynch off the table and offer up those who think he is scum as the lynch candidates, and we see who is willing to listen to me/who thinks I am on the right track, and take it from there. Now we have to do that today, and two townies are dead.
The final 3 faust votes (I strongly believe that one of these is mafia):hmmm... hmmm... (there isn't a need to state intent to hammer lio. None at all...)
hammer time. faust is getting lynched anyways, that is pretty obvious. Maybe I am completely wrong about faust. I hate the idea of a player getting lynched two days in a row. But sometimes that is just the way it is.
But he is going to get lynched today. I don't really like it, but that's how it goes, so why prolong the inevitable....
vote: faust
Now at least day2 will be going when I am around a bit more (note... this isn't why I am doing this, but is certainly a small, but very selfish part.I'm back again... but not for all that long and I will only have phone access tomorrow. I should have popped in earlier today.
[bunch of other stuff]
Vote: faust. I'm sure enough that he is my preferred lynch now. And I don't have see why putting him at L-1 is a bad thing. However, reminder, This is L-1. Do not hammer without stating intent prior and giving everyone a chance to weigh in if possible.Alright. I pick B: Town/Scum. Mostly because it's the most likely thing for there to be. I would not mind lynching from one of these two, but I prefer faust since he's acting fairly similar to how he did in Modern Community
Vote: faust since NHS will most likely be replaced.
The liopoil vote was careless (in my opinion) to put Faust at L-1, but I really don't get a huge scum-read from the vote, especially because he specifically told people to post intent to hammer before they hammered.
The Yuma vote? Seems like a rage-vote (slightly) since people were starting to accuse him of being on the same scum-team as Faust. He clearly knew he wasn't, because Faust was town, but that doesn't mean that Yuma just thought he was on the other mafia team. I see a decent scum-read on yuma here
Now Archetypes vote looks like an unexplained wagon vote. Really nothing to it, but it was a "safe" vote because everyone was doing it and it only put Faust at L-2. Now, when I see unexplained votes, I think scum.
vote: Archetype
I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.
I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.So you are narrowing our scumpool down to 3 for this round. Ambitious.
Weird, weird post. Sounds like you are one of the scum teams trying to give the other team advice.
I am... Hey Ice Mafia shoot Robz or Voltgloss during Night1 ok?
Or... maybe I am trying to find a way to optimize this setup toward town.
Revisited this while reading, but don't quite understand this post, can anyone explain this to me? (note that voltgloss is killed but he is burnt to death by Fire Mafia instead of Ice Mafia)
Because there is likely scum in there. And by likely I mean for sure because 2.7 is included.I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.
this statement is scummy from archetype in the same way that 2.7's is. Why is this pool of players scummy? Why eliminate everyone else?
I'm also developing suspicions of people who joined the lynched convinced by the scum slip. How many times does this need to happen before people learn? Applies especially to more veteran players - we are building a good pile of evidence to the theory that "only town scumslip, because scum is more careful in their posting".
I don't remember who else but Robz was vocal about the wording making no sense for anyone but scum, but scum points for that. I actually feel bad for not supporting yuma earlier for being the voice of reason yesterday, I was fighting to stay caught up all the time and never really developed a strong read on faust. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.
Someone forgot to give me the memo?Because there is likely scum in there. And by likely I mean for sure because 2.7 is included.I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.
this statement is scummy from archetype in the same way that 2.7's is. Why is this pool of players scummy? Why eliminate everyone else?
Because there is likely scum in there. And by likely I mean for sure because 2.7 is included.I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.
this statement is scummy from archetype in the same way that 2.7's is. Why is this pool of players scummy? Why eliminate everyone else?
Rage vote: yuma. The faust lynch was (almost) the dumbest fucking thing ever. I wanted to get everyone on the table to see who wanted to out themselves as willing to mislynch. Why do you think I was doing ABCD? I am only voting for someone on the faust wagon today.
Speaking of which, can we please get an official final votecount mail-mi? I don't see one.
Well you sure make me want to keep playing this game, but I am just going to ignore your first sentence and move on.
Rage vote: yuma. The faust lynch was (almost) the dumbest fucking thing ever. I wanted to get everyone on the table to see who wanted to out themselves as willing to mislynch. Why do you think I was doing ABCD? I am only voting for someone on the faust wagon today.
Speaking of which, can we please get an official final votecount mail-mi? I don't see one.
Well you sure make me want to keep playing this game, but I am just going to ignore your first sentence and move on.
Appeal to emotion!
I hugely disagree it was the dumbest thing ever. Faust had a scummy statement that he failed to give any mitigating explanation for whatsoever.
No, faust had a statement no scum would ever make. It was not a scummy statement. sudgy's "trap" was of mediocre quality. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. There was no damn reason to quicklynch faust and it was absolutely not true that he was the "only" lynch we would arrive at. Because tonight what should be happening is that it's the end of D1, I declare a faust lynch off the table and offer up those who think he is scum as the lynch candidates, and we see who is willing to listen to me/who thinks I am on the right track, and take it from there. Now we have to do that today, and two townies are dead.
Well, far be it from me to critique an IC... but I am going to anyways....
I think you should have taken faust off the table before you left if this was ultimately your plan.
Rage vote: yuma. The faust lynch was (almost) the dumbest fucking thing ever. I wanted to get everyone on the table to see who wanted to out themselves as willing to mislynch. Why do you think I was doing ABCD? I am only voting for someone on the faust wagon today.
Speaking of which, can we please get an official final votecount mail-mi? I don't see one.
Well you sure make me want to keep playing this game, but I am just going to ignore your first sentence and move on.
Appeal to emotion!
hey... you using inflammatory language that i find rather offensive in regard to me... you bet i am going to react emotionally. not to manipulate you but because i am a person with emotions.
Yuma, why did you expect to be quicklynched today?
Rage vote: yuma. The faust lynch was (almost) the dumbest fucking thing ever. I wanted to get everyone on the table to see who wanted to out themselves as willing to mislynch. Why do you think I was doing ABCD? I am only voting for someone on the faust wagon today.
Speaking of which, can we please get an official final votecount mail-mi? I don't see one.
Well you sure make me want to keep playing this game, but I am just going to ignore your first sentence and move on.
Appeal to emotion!
hey... you using inflammatory language that i find rather offensive in regard to me... you bet i am going to react emotionally. not to manipulate you but because i am a person with emotions.
I said the lynch was dumb. Not that you are dumb. More than 4 people voted for faust, town helped lynch faust.
The arguments were heating up. "I think it's these three!" One toy called.Hey! That's me!
I think it was either a gigantic blunder from yuma to vote for faust or he is scum. I might give a pass for someone else for doing something like this, but i think yuma should know better. Like.. i just dont understand hammering people you dont think will flip scum. i totally understand voltaire's frustration, even if i dont agree with the harsh wording he chose.I hugely disagree it was the dumbest thing ever. Faust had a scummy statement that he failed to give any mitigating explanation for whatsoever.
No, faust had a statement no scum would ever make. It was not a scummy statement. sudgy's "trap" was of mediocre quality. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. There was no damn reason to quicklynch faust and it was absolutely not true that he was the "only" lynch we would arrive at. Because tonight what should be happening is that it's the end of D1, I declare a faust lynch off the table and offer up those who think he is scum as the lynch candidates, and we see who is willing to listen to me/who thinks I am on the right track, and take it from there. Now we have to do that today, and two townies are dead.
Well, far be it from me to critique an IC... but I am going to anyways....
I think you should have taken faust off the table before you left if this was ultimately your plan.
from my point of view, I was the only one thinking that faust might be town. everyone else was saying he was scum and yeah... I was super frustrated that I was being called scummy for saying something wasn't a scumslip because there is no such thing as a scumslip. So I voted him because that is what everyone wanted, they obviously didn't want to listen to reason, they wanted to listen to group think and themselves saying the same things over and over and over again and then attack anyone with a contrary position. So I did what I did and hoped I was wrong and that he was scum. He wasn't. I am not really surprised.
I think it was either a gigantic blunder from yuma to vote for faust or he is scum. I might give a pass for someone else for doing something like this, but i think yuma should know better. Like.. i just dont understand hammering people you dont think will flip scum. i totally understand voltaire's frustration, even if i dont agree with the harsh wording he chose.I hugely disagree it was the dumbest thing ever. Faust had a scummy statement that he failed to give any mitigating explanation for whatsoever.
No, faust had a statement no scum would ever make. It was not a scummy statement. sudgy's "trap" was of mediocre quality. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. There was no d*** reason to quicklynch faust and it was absolutely not true that he was the "only" lynch we would arrive at. Because tonight what should be happening is that it's the end of D1, I declare a faust lynch off the table and offer up those who think he is scum as the lynch candidates, and we see who is willing to listen to me/who thinks I am on the right track, and take it from there. Now we have to do that today, and two townies are dead.
Well, far be it from me to critique an IC... but I am going to anyways....
I think you should have taken faust off the table before you left if this was ultimately your plan.
from my point of view, I was the only one thinking that faust might be town. everyone else was saying he was scum and yeah... I was super frustrated that I was being called scummy for saying something wasn't a scumslip because there is no such thing as a scumslip. So I voted him because that is what everyone wanted, they obviously didn't want to listen to reason, they wanted to listen to group think and themselves saying the same things over and over and over again and then attack anyone with a contrary position. So I did what I did and hoped I was wrong and that he was scum. He wasn't. I am not really surprised.
I think it was either a gigantic blunder from yuma to vote for faust or he is scum. I might give a pass for someone else for doing something like this, but i think yuma should know better. Like.. i just dont understand hammering people you dont think will flip scum. i totally understand voltaire's frustration, even if i dont agree with the harsh wording he chose.
yuma's actions were also a gigantic hedge of the scummy kind. of faust flips town, he makes this post. if faust flips scum, he takes the credit for hammering mafia. i agree that true scumslips dont exist / this forum (me included) always attacks dumb wording/thinking errors, but being responsible and accountable for your votes is mafia 101, and hammer votes should be especially heavily scrutinized.
i'm too tired to look back to the vote situation / general mood to see if scumyuma could have something to gain from such a risky play, but i'm honestly thinking the only yuma that could have his wincon advanced by that hammer is scumyuma and townyuma doesnt make mistakes that big or would at least start by apologizing if he out of frustration did.
Yeah, vote: yuma and I'm done voting today. If you want to lynch someone else, you'll need to do it without my vote.
Yuma did do it in LotR2, but that was when there was barely any time left. Yuma, just for future reference, it is extremely frustrating to be lynched and not able to say a thing about it. Coming from someone you did it to.
Yeah, vote: yuma and I'm done voting today. If you want to lynch someone else, you'll need to do it without my vote.
Alright, just remember what I said in the post above. I am extremely suspicious of people who started out the day trying to get me lynched.
and yes I am sure someone is going to be all like.... "AGH! why are you giving scum ideas!!!" and to that I can say, I am sure scum has already thought of it... and the answer is to just hammer people...
Yeah, vote: yuma and I'm done voting today. If you want to lynch someone else, you'll need to do it without my vote.
Alright, just remember what I said in the post above. I am extremely suspicious of people who started out the day trying to get me lynched.
Yeah, the IC. :P
But I do know what you mean. IF you flip town, THEN I'll consider it.
How in the world did town!yuma advance his wincon yesterday?
and yes I am sure someone is going to be all like.... "AGH! why are you giving scum ideas!!!" and to that I can say, I am sure scum has already thought of it... and the answer is to just hammer people...
hammer people you think are scum. Which, by your own explanation, is not what you did.
I'm still replying to you because I hope to convince enough other players to lynch you. At least one scum team (ie 2 people) should be happy adding their votes to mine.
I still think it was going to happen eventually (obviously I didn't know you were going to put your foot down on that lynch as I felt that you were for it as well)... It was a likely a mistake, but again, I dont' necessarily feel bad about it because it was a result of frustration borne by feeling like I was on an island with no one heading what I was saying.
Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
I still think it was going to happen eventually (obviously I didn't know you were going to put your foot down on that lynch as I felt that you were for it as well)... It was a likely a mistake, but again, I dont' necessarily feel bad about it because it was a result of frustration borne by feeling like I was on an island with no one heading what I was saying.Do you seriously think faust, as scum, typed out the words "do not kill" and posted them?
I thought that was as clear as I could be, to leave room for misguided town while still getting scum on the record.
I saw that, but later in the day you said something to the effect that you too were beginning to see that faust/sudgy was scum.
I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
I saw that, but later in the day you said something to the effect that you too were beginning to see that faust/sudgy was scum.I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
My last post before you hammered.
I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.
wait I have something to run by you
A lot of commentary while I was away, but easy answers first. I said 1/3 were scum, and since 4/8 (removing myself and Voltaire) are scum, the chances that I am correct are decent. Saying 2/3 is less likely to be accurate, even in the narrowed lynch pool (I am sure Archetype will argue for 4/8 excluding himself and Voltaire) that we have.I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.So you are narrowing our scumpool down to 3 for this round. Ambitious.
You did basically the same thing just before... why is his attempt ambitious, but yours isn't?
A lot of commentary while I was away, but easy answers first. I said 1/3 were scum, and since 4/8 (removing myself and Voltaire) are scum, the chances that I am correct are decent. Saying 2/3 is less likely to be accurate, even in the narrowed lynch pool (I am sure Archetype will argue for 4/8 excluding himself and Voltaire) that we have.
Now, since we both think the other is mafia and claim innocence, I will change the odds to 4/9 for both of us. But that just makes Archetypes claim further from the straight percentage of scum among us.
First 2.7 decides that a group of players must include scum... he doesn't include why that group must include scum though. he just states it as a fact and then moves on to discuss the individual players which is fine in a way, but 2.7 just completely eliminates the rest of the player pool in a way that looks far too convenient to me. Maybe there is scum in this group of three, it isn't me. I don't know about the other two. But I see no reason given by him as to why he is focusing on us three except that perhaps it doesn't include him or his scum partner.
yuma, an apology is maybe not the right word for what I would have expected from a town version if you.. just something to acknowledge the fact that you let your fellow townies down by letting your emotions get the best of you. that's how I'd feel if I was town and hammered someone in the fashion you did.
Yuma, that's what I was going to do here. If you agree with me, you should be voting for someone (Robz most likely) who argued like that to be lynched over yourself.
Well d'uh! My scum read is not stemming from your faust defense -yuma, an apology is maybe not the right word for what I would have expected from a town version if you.. just something to acknowledge the fact that you let your fellow townies down by letting your emotions get the best of you. that's how I'd feel if I was town and hammered someone in the fashion you did.
I feel like I have acknowledged that. But I don't think they were invalid emotions. Because ultimately... I was right about faust not scumslipping.... obviously that is negated by my hammering him. But once again I am going to use this as an example along with the <i>voltgloss scumslip</i> then next time someone brings up a scumslip argument.
Yuma, that's what I was going to do here. If you agree with me, you should be voting for someone (Robz most likely) who argued like that to be lynched over yourself.
Sorry, I am not sure what you are getting at here.... Could you clarify for me?
Fair enough. Basically I am playing the odds. We are at a point where 4/10 players are mafia. Take away the Doc and we have 4/9. Of those 9 players, 5 of them voted for faust, and 3 of those 5 survived D1 and were the final 3 votes. It is safe to assume that at least one of those players is mafia. Saying that you have a 1/3 shot of finding mafia in any given sampling of those 5 players is not unreasonable. Now, it is always slightly ambitious (if I may keep using that word) to say you know anything for certainty in this game, but the odds are in my favor for this one.A lot of commentary while I was away, but easy answers first. I said 1/3 were scum, and since 4/8 (removing myself and Voltaire) are scum, the chances that I am correct are decent. Saying 2/3 is less likely to be accurate, even in the narrowed lynch pool (I am sure Archetype will argue for 4/8 excluding himself and Voltaire) that we have.
Now, since we both think the other is mafia and claim innocence, I will change the odds to 4/9 for both of us. But that just makes Archetypes claim further from the straight percentage of scum among us.
Fair enough, but I am more interested in hearing the answer to my other question.First 2.7 decides that a group of players must include scum... he doesn't include why that group must include scum though. he just states it as a fact and then moves on to discuss the individual players which is fine in a way, but 2.7 just completely eliminates the rest of the player pool in a way that looks far too convenient to me. Maybe there is scum in this group of three, it isn't me. I don't know about the other two. But I see no reason given by him as to why he is focusing on us three except that perhaps it doesn't include him or his scum partner.
Which I note doesn't actually have a question in it.
So I will ask it now. Why do you think that one of the last three voters of faust "must be scum?" what separates us from say... the first three voters of faust, or the "players not on faust"
It is safe to assume that at least one of those FIVE players is mafia.I meant the group of 5 alive who voted faust, not the last three in the above sentence.
Yuma, that's what I was going to do here. If you agree with me, you should be voting for someone (Robz most likely) who argued like that to be lynched over yourself.
Sorry, I am not sure what you are getting at here.... Could you clarify for me?
If you agree that there is no such thing as scumslips (which you do, you just said it), you should be voting for whichever faust voter voted for him strongest because of the slip (in your estimation), unless you truly think everyone on the wagon was misguided town.
Robz matches the criteria perfectly. There may be others.
The flaw in your reasoning, yuma, is that town should not vote for scumslips. Easy-peasy now. Note how I called out Robz D1 for this. He should know better by now.
As scum, I totally jumped all over the famous <b>slip</b>. My partner (in a two-man team) started the case. You (scum) didn't hold either of us accountable for it.
And here, we have four scum. My point holds.
The flaw in your reasoning, yuma, is that town should not vote for scumslips. Easy-peasy now. Note how I called out Robz D1 for this. He should know better by now.
No. Never happens. Not in 3095u309520396820393 million years.
hey... you using inflammatory language that i find rather offensive in regard to me... you bet i am going to react emotionally. not to manipulate you but because i am a person with emotions.
Eevee's different this game. Changing up a meta? Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads. Hmmmm...
I have ABCD statements from: Voltgloss, faust, 2.7, Gveoniz, Robz, sudgy, and Eevee.
I still need them from: liopoil, Archetype, ashersky, Yuma, NHSederholm
Spoiler alert: I'd like us to lynch a lurker. Freakin' post, people.
I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.1) You agreed with yuma, and believe what you will about yuma's claim that he misread this (from yuma's reaction to everything I really do believe yuma on this. It also makes me begin to lean much more on yuma being town) but the thing is, before yuma hammered, you weren't against him, you were even beginning to vouch for him and his ideas.
And now the other thing: My growing suspicion that Eevee is scum.Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on. I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)
Reasons:
1). It's a feeling. Eevee usually screams town to me. He always screams town to me. He's almost always town. He feels a lot different here.
2). He's said some jarringly weird or non-Eevee things (like the Star Wars thing).
3). I was not the only one who thought this. Ashersky was very vocal about how odd Eevee was acting.Eevee's different this game. Changing up a meta? Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads. Hmmmm...
And ashersky died.
4). His most recent long-ish post stakes out very rational ground, a well thought out and written opinion on yuma... that nonetheless concludes yuma is scum, but leaves himself room for doubt. It's hard to tell whether he's like just townie legitimiately unsure and torn up about why yuma did what he did, or scum positioning for a yuma lynch.
Also, I want to add another caveat to this that I have thought about as I review posts before I am called out on it. At this point, you are able to pick any 3 players at random excluding Voltaire and write the same little blurb about why you think at least one of those players is mafia. So my reasoning above is kind of scummy going by saying I am "merely playing the odds" when it is clear that my target was Archetype in that group. I picked those three because they work with the theories that I have in mind. Remember, we can only lynch one at a time, so I could have just as easily come from the "those who didn't vote faust" side and ended up on a player like Eevee. Just because you want one player lynched does not mean others are not mafia, it is merely the next step in the process.Fair enough. Basically I am playing the odds. We are at a point where 4/10 players are mafia. Take away the Doc and we have 4/9. Of those 9 players, 5 of them voted for faust, and 3 of those 5 survived D1 and were the final 3 votes. It is safe to assume that at least one of those players is mafia. Saying that you have a 1/3 shot of finding mafia in any given sampling of those 5 players is not unreasonable. Now, it is always slightly ambitious (if I may keep using that word) to say you know anything for certainty in this game, but the odds are in my favor for this one.A lot of commentary while I was away, but easy answers first. I said 1/3 were scum, and since 4/8 (removing myself and Voltaire) are scum, the chances that I am correct are decent. Saying 2/3 is less likely to be accurate, even in the narrowed lynch pool (I am sure Archetype will argue for 4/8 excluding himself and Voltaire) that we have.
Now, since we both think the other is mafia and claim innocence, I will change the odds to 4/9 for both of us. But that just makes Archetypes claim further from the straight percentage of scum among us.
Fair enough, but I am more interested in hearing the answer to my other question.First 2.7 decides that a group of players must include scum... he doesn't include why that group must include scum though. he just states it as a fact and then moves on to discuss the individual players which is fine in a way, but 2.7 just completely eliminates the rest of the player pool in a way that looks far too convenient to me. Maybe there is scum in this group of three, it isn't me. I don't know about the other two. But I see no reason given by him as to why he is focusing on us three except that perhaps it doesn't include him or his scum partner.
Which I note doesn't actually have a question in it.
So I will ask it now. Why do you think that one of the last three voters of faust "must be scum?" what separates us from say... the first three voters of faust, or the "players not on faust"
Just as a point of reference, I didn't lynch faust for the scumslip.
| Voltaire Yuma 2.71828..... Robz888 liopoil Eevee sudgy Archetype Gveoniz Jimmmmm | 28 28 17 11 9 9 7 6 3 1 |
Robz's big post
My reaction to this is "Well f--- you."
Alright, I feel better having said all that... and I really hope you don't take it personally, Voltaire. I really wouldn't want to like reverse things and end up having you feel unwelcome. I hope that's not the case.
Robz, you said you think we'll find more scum off of faust's wagon (that'd be Jimmmmm, e, Gveo, and Eevee). Why?
e has rocketed up the scum ladder today.I was going to do 2.7 reread anyway. I will post what I think here.
So my reasoning above is kind of scummy going by saying I am "merely playing the odds" when it is clear that my target was Archetype in that group.(By the way, that statement nearly make be want to accuse him for that reason when I didn't looked at the whole post carefully enough.)
Just as a point of reference, I didn't lynch faust for the scumslip.
No... you lynched him for finding a scummy statement by you to be scummy. Not sure which is worse.
Just as a point of reference, I didn't lynch faust for the scumslip.
No... you lynched him for finding a scummy statement by you to be scummy. Not sure which is worse.
I lynched him for scummy statements he said after that.
-- Voluntarily stepping away from the game for a few hours is the best way to prevent yourself from saying something you regret.He then collected himself and wrote a very reasonable post that I hoped would help put us back on track and basically "get over" the yuma quicklynch knee-jerk reaction. First impressions can be spot-on, but they can also have serious flaws. While I am not ready to let yuma completely off, I think there are better candidates for the D2 lynch.
Catching up.So this is what I am getting
1. Claiming doctor is helpful to the town right nowI think the doctor claiming plan may be a good idea. Will a scum team target the doctor over someone else? I don't think so, not even if they were sure that he would die. They're basically giving their opposing team a chance to gain an advantage over them (if scum A targets the doctor, they kill a known townie while scum B has the chance to hit one of them).2. Claiming doctor hurts the town later.Remember, everyone, that if the Doctor claims and becomes IC, he is an IC who is guaranteed to die once one scumteam is dead. This isn't a Role Madness game where there are other unknown power roles out there who can WIFOM scum at night about their kill. Yes, I agree that the opposing scumteams create such a WIFOM and will probably mean a Doctor who claims now won't be nightkilled - for now. But as soon as one scumteam is dead, that WIFOM disappears and nothing can bring it back. And the Doctor is then dead... at just the time (lategame) when his Doctor protection would be most helpful.
I think 2.7 sums it up nicely. Whether the doctor claims is the classic short-term gain vs. long-term gain debate.
An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.Even coming out as strongly I have against Archetype is still relatively flexible, so long as Archetype gives some satisfactory answers to questions such as
Very concerned by 2.7's trying to get me lynched. Not neccerssarily because it's me he's trying to start a wagon on (but that does play a big part) but more of him being a newbie and doing something like this. What he said awhile ago about "Voting alongside the Doctor" certainly rubbed me the wrong way.
Voltaire, sure I am rocketing up your scum ladder, but is it because I am backing up people that you have targeted? Well, let me support Robz some more.
First of all, Robz did NOT say "f--- you." Rather, he listened to his own advice from the civility pledge and did this:-- Voluntarily stepping away from the game for a few hours is the best way to prevent yourself from saying something you regret.He then collected himself and wrote a very reasonable post that I hoped would help put us back on track and basically "get over" the yuma quicklynch knee-jerk reaction.
Yes, I did not mean to imply that I thought of you as anything less than town, but in regards to narrowing the lynch field, etc., etc. I view you in a 3rd party-esque role in that we can now say "4/9 are scum with one doctor in reserve not being counted."Voltaire, sure I am rocketing up your scum ladder, but is it because I am backing up people that you have targeted? Well, let me support Robz some more.
First of all, Robz did NOT say "f--- you." Rather, he listened to his own advice from the civility pledge and did this:-- Voluntarily stepping away from the game for a few hours is the best way to prevent yourself from saying something you regret.He then collected himself and wrote a very reasonable post that I hoped would help put us back on track and basically "get over" the yuma quicklynch knee-jerk reaction.
An IC is not a third party. They are town.
Just as a point of reference, I didn't lynch faust for the scumslip.
No... you lynched him for finding a scummy statement by you to be scummy. Not sure which is worse.
I lynched him for scummy statements he said after that.
Just as a point of reference, I didn't lynch faust for the scumslip.
No... you lynched him for finding a scummy statement by you to be scummy. Not sure which is worse.
I lynched him for scummy statements he said after that.
And, as I've said multiple times before, my statement wasn't scummy.
Btw, I still think sudgy is more likely town.
Just as a point of reference, I didn't lynch faust for the scumslip.
No... you lynched him for finding a scummy statement by you to be scummy. Not sure which is worse.
I lynched him for scummy statements he said after that.
So you lynched him for how he explained his "slip"? That means that you lynched him for his "scumslip". because his explanations for the slip can only be scummy if you assume that his slip was actually a slip.
So.... you lynched him for his scumslip, you just don't want to admit to doing that...
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...
He could have been killed anyway. He's Voltaire, a player with a pretty good reputation. One team or the other might have shot him Night 1--now it's likely neither will.
Yeah, it probably turned out alright, but you didn't know that beforehand, did you?
NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you explain?... this has me worried a little. I think an outed doctor will die as soon as one scum team has the upper hand. If it's two scum A/one scum B/town, scum B won't shoot the doctor, they need to hit scum A. Scum A can safely shoot the doctor, and that's good for them, because they don't want a reduced lynch pool at this point (and they don't have much incentive to shoot scum B because that would mean one NK less and thus a longer game).
I'm not so sure anymore that this doctor claim is really a good idea.
But it took awhile for someone to point out the scumslip. Voltgloss did it first, then people ignored it for a long time until someone pointed it out again (this is my memory, correct if wrong)
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
Can someone please explain the votes on faust?
What Voltgloss said. His reaction to my explanation also confirmed it a bit as Volt said as well.
So, first, the reason I think it's scummy to find me scummy for a controversial statement (not for some to react to it, as you said) is that controversial statements aren't scummy. And, my vote on you solidified more from your reaction, which also seemed somewhat scummy.
I just reread faust, and not much sticks out (just doc talk, robz talk, and our "debacle", to use someone else's language (;))). I reread him in NMIV too, and he seemed to be trying to push discussion more there than here, which brings up his scumminess a bit.
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
When I first read it, something felt weird about it but I didn't worry about it. Now that I think about it more, it -could- be him covering a scumslip. I don't think so, but it almost looks like it. The way he says things (like his "Err...") seem to be more clumsy, which would make it seem more genuine.
But it took awhile for someone to point out the scumslip. Voltgloss did it first, then people ignored it for a long time until someone pointed it out again (this is my memory, correct if wrong)
No... his very next post is in response to Gveo who points out the statement...Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Why are you talking about "do not kill"? Informing the other scum team not to kill him?
Err... I'm informing all scum teams not to kill him? They are all scumhunting in a way, so maybe they find reads lists helpful to find opposing scum. If I were scum, why would I want to inform the other scum team of anything? They would be a bigger threat to me than town.
Also Robz did you answer this?Robz, you said you think we'll find more scum off of faust's wagon (that'd be Jimmmmm, e, Gveo, and Eevee). Why?
Robz's big post
Robz, first, you can't sayMy reaction to this is "Well f--- you."
and thenAlright, I feel better having said all that... and I really hope you don't take it personally, Voltaire. I really wouldn't want to like reverse things and end up having you feel unwelcome. I hope that's not the case.
and expect me to believe you. Town or scum, you intended for me to take that big post personally. I mean, you said f--- you! You really can't get more personal unless you use real-life details about me.
But it's ok! Because I think you made that post to further your win-con. Because here's the thing. You, as scum, try to discredit me. Like in M31, where you said I was looking for kindergarten-level scum play. That had, for those listening, identified like 4/5 of Robz's team or something (note I don't think the play was actually kindergarten, it was very good, I mean, his team won and Robz deserves the MVP he got for it. More importantly, he beat me!). So how does scum!Robz discredit an IC here? All he's really got is emotions. Like those above, which really can't be in the same sentence if they're to be believed.
Also, for everyone saying I used inflammatory language, I did! About the lynch! Yes, absolutely, I understand those of you who say "but innately that also means you're talking about the people voting for the lynch," but I know there is a difference. Like I said, town voted to lynch faust. There's only 4 scum. It took more than 4 scum to lynch faust. We know that town players voted for faust.
All of this would be simpler if yuma hadn't hammered faust. Now it's a confusing mess. You have to understand my frustration with yuma, if he is town. If he is scum, then he's made a high-risk, high-reward action that appears to be paying off for him right now.
Like I said, I'll happily hunt for the rest of the scum with everyone else. I'd prefer we lynch yuma, of course, but let's not waste the day!
I also claim no perfect record. I have participated in bad mislynches. I have been manipulated by scum. I have been targeted by ICs. For anyone who doesn't like my play here, either try to improve it and help town win without telling me to fuck myself, or just wait until a future game when you get to be one. :)
I'm really not trying to make it personal, I'm telling you the language you are using to condemn my play ticks me off, and I don't want to be ticked off.
And like, your reads are good man, no doubt, but you still have a mad case of IC-itis. I really hope you're thinking is correct, because no one is going to disagree with you when you insult them for doing so and chalk up their disagreement to "scum trying to discredit me."
Ok... all I am saying is that there were two reasons faust was lynched.
1. the scumslip (and everything attached to it... his explanation for it and response to it. But those things are only scummy if you assume that it was in fact a scumslip.
2. his vote on sudgy for saying something scummy.
My issue with this whole thing is that sudgy is saying that he voted him for different reasons, but everything that was talked about, including everything he just posted above addresses one of those two things. Sudgy is saying he voted for sudgy, but not for the bad reasons that we are talking about. So then why did sudgy vote for faust? The only thing I noticed in the above post was "he seemed to be trying to push discussion more there than here, which brings up his scumminess a bit."
Ok... all I am saying is that there were two reasons faust was lynched.
1. the scumslip (and everything attached to it... his explanation for it and response to it. But those things are only scummy if you assume that it was in fact a scumslip.
2. his vote on sudgy for saying something scummy.
My issue with this whole thing is that sudgy is saying that he voted him for different reasons, but everything that was talked about, including everything he just posted above addresses one of those two things. Sudgy is saying he voted for sudgy, but not for the bad reasons that we are talking about. So then why did sudgy vote for faust? The only thing I noticed in the above post was "he seemed to be trying to push discussion more there than here, which brings up his scumminess a bit."
My vote was originally for finding me scummy for the controversial statement, but his reaction to my vote made me think he was scum more. Those reactions were the biggest thing.
Ok... all I am saying is that there were two reasons faust was lynched.
1. the scumslip (and everything attached to it... his explanation for it and response to it. But those things are only scummy if you assume that it was in fact a scumslip.
2. his vote on sudgy for saying something scummy.
My issue with this whole thing is that sudgy is saying that he voted him for different reasons, but everything that was talked about, including everything he just posted above addresses one of those two things. Sudgy is saying he voted for sudgy, but not for the bad reasons that we are talking about. So then why did sudgy vote for faust? The only thing I noticed in the above post was "he seemed to be trying to push discussion more there than here, which brings up his scumminess a bit."
My vote was originally for finding me scummy for the controversial statement, but his reaction to my vote made me think he was scum more. Those reactions were the biggest thing.
Ok. But if you think his reactions are scummy then you must think that his voting for you is scummy. You can't have it the other way around.
That is to say, you can't say, "his vote on me was townie" but "his reaction to it was scummy." It doesn't work that way. So you did vote for him for the reasons I said, it is just that it appears you are putting a greater emphasis on the side elements, but just because they are on the side, doesn't mean they aren't part of the overall issue.
I'm behind several pages, but likely won't catch up until GoT goes to night.
.. unless I absolutely need to. Do I?
I'm behind several pages, but likely won't catch up until GoT goes to night.
.. unless I absolutely need to. Do I?
Nope.
I'm behind several pages, but likely won't catch up until GoT goes to night.
.. unless I absolutely need to. Do I?
Nope.
Would scum want to keep the people they suspect alive so they'd have someone they could legitimately build a case against (and possible get town cred for being right), or would they want to kill their suspects to eliminate the other team?and gives no answer, but that seems to me like something asked to spur on discussion in an attempt to work out the solution. Still, Eevee has not come back to that question yet. However, now we get interesting, when Eevee comes out and gives us his first strong opinion of the game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312645#msg312645). Eevee comes out strong against faust, and leads Voltaire into making a strong decision to vote yuma and keep his vote on yuma the rest of the day.
Yeah, vote: yuma and I'm done voting today. If you want to lynch someone else, you'll need to do it without my vote.So the decision about Eevee is boiled down to the last line of Voltaire's post. Is this scum!Eevee doing a great manipulation job, or is it town!Eevee finally deciding to take a stand for something after being an observer (lurker) without strong opinions all of D1.
I'll still be playing, mind you. I'll be trying to help identify the other three scum.
If this is scum!Eevee expertly manipulating me, then a tip of the cap. You did it perfectly.
e has rocketed up the scum ladder today.rereading day 2/catching up and wow, this, first and foremost this.
im caught up and actually feel I got a decent grasp on the game despite not reading for so long. I'm super tired, so just a quick reads list to maybe spark up some discussion. I'll be back tomorrow with explanations, comments on robz's case and answers to e's clarifying questions.
but for now, I'm just mystical and give reads without explanations
town: yuma (!), Voltaire (duh)
scum: robz, e, sudgy, archetype
wouldn't have remembered they are playing had e not just referenced them (nice job with the summary posts btw, your effort is appreciated): liopoil (!), jimm, whoever else isn't mentioned except for gweoniz who I need to reread, jury is still out.
I feel I had another town read but my brain is failing me. more to
come tomorrow!
scum: robz, e, sudgy, archetypenice. That means me and my scum partner discussed a brilliant strategy where either
vote: 2.7In lieu of an explanation, I will attempt to form your case against me and respond to it. I will use your latest post (not the vote). Tell me how I do.
So let's start with people that voted for me early on day2. Keep in mind this isn't OMGUS. This is with a very specific idea in mind.great start.
Basically given what happened at the end of day1 it wouldn't have out of the range of possibilities for a mafia team to think that I was a different mafia team. As such I thought that perhaps they might try and kill me during the night. But they didn't. So I have to ask why? The answer is that they are hoping I will be a mislynch (or a from their perspective a lynch of opposite mafia, which is even better for them than a NK). So I am thinking people that came out of day2 with heavy suspicion on me may fit into that category.I agree completely. If I were in your position and knew I was town, I would probably think on similar lines
Who are they?Yes
Voltaire came out, but he is an IC. So no beans there.
Sudgy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312465#msg312465) was very shortly after.Again, a clear layout of the facts as they happened. However, I wouldn't really say I voted for Arch "instead" of you. Remember that I did not have an active vote until I voted arch D1 and I thought you were scummy back then, so I would make the case that I would most likely be just not voting. Just because I view a person as scummy does not mean that I believe it is appropriate to lynch them immediately.
2.7 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312459#msg312459) didn't vote for me. He voted for Archetype instead. But he put me very high on his suspicion list.
Archetype (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312473#msg312473) also doesn't vote for me, but cast suspicion my way in a passive manner and then does so less passively (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312474#msg312474)Ok. I can live with this.
Gveo (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312506#msg312506) also put some suspicion on me and doesn't vote anywhere.
I then bring up this theory for the first time (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312639#msg312639), and since then interestingly there hasn't been a lot of movement towards me being scummy... the opposite actually.I need to stop you right there before you go any further. Shortly before you propose your theory, Eevee comes out with this sympathetic post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312584#msg312584) in regard to your situation. (read the last paragraph especially) After your theory he comes out with this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312645#msg312645) that causes Voltaire to switch back to you and come out super strong saying he will vote for no one else today. Don't forget Eevee in your list of people who came out against/slightly against you. I also believe that the movement away from you being scummy is more of a reaction to Voltaire's polarizing post more than anything else.
Then I post my sarcastic response to Eevee and you vote for me. Now I am sure there are other reasons why you find me the most scummy of your little lynchpool (maybe the change in my posting behavior from D1 to D2 as I get bolder with my posting or the way I hedge my post here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312809#msg312809) or some other reason) but I feel that within your lynchpool there are better candidates for scum. Also, what's with you forgetting Eevee's part in your group of "those who came out against me"
So I think I will find scum in the above list: gveo, sudgy, archetype, 2.7. I will obviously want to give all 4 a more thorough reread. But I should also note that some players didn't post in this interlude... Jimmmm jumps to mind I think and as such should perhaps not be given a pass for not having an opportunity for finding me scummy (but I should double check who gave opinions about me and who didn't up to my theory post)....
I agree with Voltaire, and not only because I know myself to be town.
Scum wants nothing more than towncred for lynching scum of the opposite team. I think because of that, it's natural they would be more wagon-happy than townies.
Now that I think of it, I'm also developing suspicions of people who joined the lynched convinced by the scum slip. How many times does this need to happen before people learn? Applies especially to more veteran players - we are building a good pile of evidence to the theory that "only town scumslip, because scum is more careful in their posting".
I don't remember who else but Robz was vocal about the wording making no sense for anyone but scum, but scum points for that. I actually feel bad for not supporting yuma earlier for being the voice of reason yesterday, I was fighting to stay caught up all the time and never really developed a strong read on faust. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.
I think it was either a gigantic blunder from yuma to vote for faust or he is scum. I might give a pass for someone else for doing something like this, but i think yuma should know better. Like.. i just dont understand hammering people you dont think will flip scum. i totally understand voltaire's frustration, even if i dont agree with the harsh wording he chose.
yuma's actions were also a gigantic hedge of the scummy kind. of faust flips town, he makes this post. if faust flips scum, he takes the credit for hammering mafia. i agree that true scumslips dont exist / this forum (me included) always attacks dumb wording/thinking errors, but being responsible and accountable for your votes is mafia 101, and hammer votes should be especially heavily scrutinized.
i'm too tired to look back to the vote situation / general mood to see if scumyuma could have something to gain from such a risky play, but i'm honestly thinking the only yuma that could have his wincon advanced by that hammer is scumyuma and townyuma doesnt make mistakes that big or would at least start by apologizing if he out of frustration did.
However, now we get interesting, when Eevee comes out and gives us his first strong opinion of the game. Eevee comes out strong against faust, and leads Voltaire into making a strong decision to vote yuma and keep his vote on yuma the rest of the day.Should be "strong against yuma"
And now the other thing: My growing suspicion that Eevee is scum.
Reasons:
1). It's a feeling. Eevee usually screams town to me. He always screams town to me. He's almost always town. He feels a lot different here.
2). He's said some jarringly weird or non-Eevee things (like the Star Wars thing).
3). I was not the only one who thought this. Ashersky was very vocal about how odd Eevee was acting.Eevee's different this game. Changing up a meta? Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads. Hmmmm...
And ashersky died.
4). His most recent long-ish post stakes out very rational ground, a well thought out and written opinion on yuma... that nonetheless concludes yuma is scum, but leaves himself room for doubt. It's hard to tell whether he's like just townie legitimiately unsure and torn up about why yuma did what he did, or scum positioning for a yuma lynch.
3. What is there to respond to here? I didn't kill ashersky, if that's what you are asking! I don't even see a scum read in the post you quoted from ashersky - I see hesitation and laying out things we could discuss to develop a stronger read later. I would agree with him - recently my play or at least the community's perception of my play has been changing gradually. I'm a young fellow, I change all the time! But, even if ashersky did think I was scummy, that was one post, earlyish day 1? He never even voted for me, never tried to rally the townfolk against me. He never even said he suspects me! He had 85 posts, in one of which he expressed hesitation on my alignment. I'd wager if you reread ashersky, you'd find at least half the town had more reason to kill him for his reads than I did - I'm sure the man had some actual scum reads as well, although admittedly I do not remember who they were.3). I was not the only one who thought this. Ashersky was very vocal about how odd Eevee was acting.Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on. I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)Eevee's different this game. Changing up a meta? Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads. Hmmmm...
And ashersky died.
4). His most recent long-ish post stakes out very rational ground, a well thought out and written opinion on yuma... that nonetheless concludes yuma is scum, but leaves himself room for doubt. It's hard to tell whether he's like just townie legitimiately unsure and torn up about why yuma did what he did, or scum positioning for a yuma lynch.
Points 3 and 4 are convincing though. A good response from Eevee is in order, I think.
Okay, can't wait to hear the reason you think I'm scum that isn't pure OMGUS.No, no no no! No! We are playing mafia, not tag! You don't get to invalidate any suspicion someone might have on you just by being the first to post your scum read on the other person! Especially not in a situation where almost half the people are scum, that's just ridiculous.
No, it doesn't! I touched on this earlier, but I specifically do NOT think you are likely to be from the same team. I'm not even saying you are both scum of opposing teams!scum: robz, e, sudgy, archetypenice. That means me and my scum partner discussed a brilliant strategy where either
vote: 2.7In lieu of an explanation, I will attempt to form your case against me and respond to it. I will use your latest post (not the vote). Tell me how I do.
scum: robz, e, sudgy, archetypenice. That means me and my scum partner discussed a brilliant strategy where either ...
Also, what's with you forgetting Eevee's part in your group of "those who came out against me"
People are saying that they find me scummy for me not saying my vote was a mistake. Well guess what people. I'm not saying that because my vote wasn't a mistake! If you're going to think I'm scum for not lying, that is one of the weirdest ways to scumhunt ever.In a strict sense your vote (do you mean faust's?) can be regarded as a mistake since that is a mislynch for everyone, but it wasn't a mistake. If it is your D2 vote then I am not sure.
unvote (!)IC is sheeping me!
Eevee: active (and helpful?) but not very notable(especially early in the game), I will have to read more thoroughly.That's probably just because I wasn't very active or helpful day 1.
People are saying that they find me scummy for me not saying my vote was a mistake. Well guess what people. I'm not saying that because my vote wasn't a mistake! If you're going to think I'm scum for not lying, that is one of the weirdest ways to scumhunt ever.I think people here means Eevee. This is getting very convoluted and confusing, but I think what you are saying is "my explanation for the vote is reasonable, sufficient and the truth, how can it be scummy? should I have lied?". Our disagreement is that I don't think the explanation is reasonable or sufficient (and that if you are town, you would have acknowledged that.. instead you are continuing to insist that the suspicion based on that is unreasonable, which makes me think you as scum chose to stick to your story.
People are saying that they find me scummy for me not saying my vote was a mistake. Well guess what people. I'm not saying that because my vote wasn't a mistake! If you're going to think I'm scum for not lying, that is one of the weirdest ways to scumhunt ever.I think people here means Eevee. This is getting very convoluted and confusing, but I think what you are saying is "my explanation for the vote is reasonable, sufficient and the truth, how can it be scummy? should I have lied?". Our disagreement is that I don't think the explanation is reasonable or sufficient (and that if you are town, you would have acknowledged that.. instead you are continuing to insist that the suspicion based on that is unreasonable, which makes me think you as scum chose to stick to your story.
This is getting even more confusin.People are saying that they find me scummy for me not saying my vote was a mistake. Well guess what people. I'm not saying that because my vote wasn't a mistake! If you're going to think I'm scum for not lying, that is one of the weirdest ways to scumhunt ever.I think people here means Eevee. This is getting very convoluted and confusing, but I think what you are saying is "my explanation for the vote is reasonable, sufficient and the truth, how can it be scummy? should I have lied?". Our disagreement is that I don't think the explanation is reasonable or sufficient (and that if you are town, you would have acknowledged that.. instead you are continuing to insist that the suspicion based on that is unreasonable, which makes me think you as scum chose to stick to your story.
If I acknowledge that the explanation isn't reasonable or sufficient, as you say, I would be lying. I don't think that it's unreasonable or insufficient. If you think my explanation wasn't fine, that's fine by me, but saying that you think I'm scummy because I didn't say my vote was unreasonable or insufficient is stupid as I would be lying if I say that.
This is getting even more confusin.People are saying that they find me scummy for me not saying my vote was a mistake. Well guess what people. I'm not saying that because my vote wasn't a mistake! If you're going to think I'm scum for not lying, that is one of the weirdest ways to scumhunt ever.I think people here means Eevee. This is getting very convoluted and confusing, but I think what you are saying is "my explanation for the vote is reasonable, sufficient and the truth, how can it be scummy? should I have lied?". Our disagreement is that I don't think the explanation is reasonable or sufficient (and that if you are town, you would have acknowledged that.. instead you are continuing to insist that the suspicion based on that is unreasonable, which makes me think you as scum chose to stick to your story.
If I acknowledge that the explanation isn't reasonable or sufficient, as you say, I would be lying. I don't think that it's unreasonable or insufficient. If you think my explanation wasn't fine, that's fine by me, but saying that you think I'm scummy because I didn't say my vote was unreasonable or insufficient is stupid as I would be lying if I say that.
I'm saying the position you are taking on all this is not one of a town player.
I think town sudgy wouldn't NEED to lie - he'd agree with me. You don't, so I think you are scum that got stuck in his web of lies.
I mean I'm not expecting you to say "I agree! You got me!" so I don't think this argument is going anywhere. I'm not making it to convince you, I'm making it to convince the town (and the other scum team, if I'm right).
Procrastinated starting to write up the change of heart on yuma too much, and now I have to go kick ass at floorball. That's the only thing I have left to type, I think.First time I ever heard of floorball. Looked it up on wikipedia and it looks pretty cool. Hope you kicked some ass.
In response to Eevee's response to my case... yeah, okay. I guess it is a weak case. And you sound more like yourself now.Do you have any comments on my very non-omgus case on you?
Vote: 2.71828..... for being irrational, it is really unhelpful to the town.
Just returned home, it seems that a lots happened during my local day, but on the matter of doctor claiming, it seems good to to me, but I need some more time to think about it, if my opinion in this theory talk is valuable.
btw, Vote: faust
I understand that I =am the one who have the least post apart from NHS, whose is a new player and I can complete understand that. I am trying to catch up with everything right now, although on my first glance it seems that everything I would like to talk about after think for an entire day have already been said, I would try to express what I think and additionally see if I can add any contribution soon.
By the way, here is my thought on the doctor claim:
I think this is a fair trade, I am unable to judge how good it really is though. But since the claim have already happened this don't really matter any more.
unvote, RVS should not interferes with real wagons.
And I don't really understand the sudgy thing, and am also unable to find faust scummy for this. Need to study that further.
I am trying to sort out the sudgy / faust issue right now. I am thinking about B > D > A > C. But I cannot be sure, I will see if I can organize and post my thinking soon.
It is totally possible for it to be a mistake and both would be town.
I don't think of bussing in this situration, but it is probably due to the lack of experience dealing with it, I can't remember reading notable bussing somewhere else either.
(or perhaps I should looked beyond votes, but that will take more time.)
I have a feeling that everything voltaire said is well considered by himself and would be helpful later. (In a currently unsure way for me).
e has rocketed up the scum ladder today.I was going to do 2.7 reread anyway. I will post what I think here.
He is still notably active and contributing for a new player, but apart form occasional mention of his newness, quite confident. (perhaps it just a difference in style, being a semi-new player myself I find myself unable to express myself in a certain and confident way)
I also for no reason at all feel some manipulativeness, but I would need more time to look into that to make sure that I was not plainly under the influence of this:So my reasoning above is kind of scummy going by saying I am "merely playing the odds" when it is clear that my target was Archetype in that group.(By the way, that statement nearly make be want to accuse him for that reason when I didn't looked at the whole post carefully enough.)
On things I think about is the toleration of my inactivity (form robz and 2.7?), I personally of course like to be tolerated and understand and appreciate your understandings. But comparing myself with archetype, who is considered (quite) scummy partially because of inactivity. I do have a concern (although there are reasons like "I have more actual content" and "I am just a semi-newbie") that one may get some benefits that I cannot perceive yet.
It is possible that I just think a bit too much about this and mistreated your kindnesses, if that is the case, please accept my apology.
I know that didn't not fill out the scum list and lack any clear and solid read, but I am not certain enough to put anyone scum. I will try to explain soon, or tomorrow.
I feel the being unable to get a clear read on any one is like I am trying to avoid suspicion by putting less suspicion on others. I really need a thorough reread later.
Holy cow. Anybody reread him in NMIV, and you'll agree. Vote: Gveoniz.I'll do that, but I'm wary.. feels exactly the kind of thing his partner would have warned him about night 1.
In response to Eevee's response to my case... yeah, okay. I guess it is a weak case. And you sound more like yourself now.Do you have any comments on my very non-omgus case on you?
Robz backing out like this is a nulltell for me. It's the reasonable response, was expecting this to happen.
Well, obviously it's going to feel all of a sudden - I hadn't posted in almost a week! (at least it felt like a week). I didn't go into the catching up with very strong reads of any kind, and from my perspective almost half of you are scum, so..In response to Eevee's response to my case... yeah, okay. I guess it is a weak case. And you sound more like yourself now.Do you have any comments on my very non-omgus case on you?
Robz backing out like this is a nulltell for me. It's the reasonable response, was expecting this to happen.
Not really. Frankly, I still thought it was pretty OMGUSy, mainly because there was no lead up to it, you just found me scummy all of a sudden. Anyway, the big thing seems to be that I am reacting similarly to Voltaire as to the way I did in M31? Which, yes I am reacting similarly. He gets under my skin. I'm not fighting with him to discredit him, I was fighting with him because I found him insulting.
Well, obviously it's going to feel all of a sudden - I hadn't posted in almost a week! (at least it felt like a week). I didn't go into the catching up with very strong reads of any kind, and from my perspective almost half of you are scum, so..In response to Eevee's response to my case... yeah, okay. I guess it is a weak case. And you sound more like yourself now.Do you have any comments on my very non-omgus case on you?
Robz backing out like this is a nulltell for me. It's the reasonable response, was expecting this to happen.
Not really. Frankly, I still thought it was pretty OMGUSy, mainly because there was no lead up to it, you just found me scummy all of a sudden. Anyway, the big thing seems to be that I am reacting similarly to Voltaire as to the way I did in M31? Which, yes I am reacting similarly. He gets under my skin. I'm not fighting with him to discredit him, I was fighting with him because I found him insulting.
How much of your disagreements with Voltaire in MC was you being scum and advancing your wincon due to faked emotions/opinions?
Personally I don't understand what is it that is so insulting about his (admittedly sometimes rather strongly worded) opinions and I very much disagree with the notion of him not doing a desirable job as an IC, but I obviously don't feel your feelings and I don't want to go down the road of suspecing you for faking anger because that's just unpleasant. I'm legitimately confused though, when I say "I think the faust lynch was duuumb", no one finds me insulting. This just reminds me of MC, I had this same confused feeling of people getting so angry to Voltaire even though I felt my opinions were largely the same (and to my knowledge no one was frustrated with me).
Ultimately I'm holding off for more information on Robz, not like he is my preferred lynch with the current information anyways.
What do others think of my case on E? I rather like it.
even as Voltaire continued to do all the things I was calling him out on (relentless sheeping, constant OMGUS).
No I actually do take offense (haha! not really :)) of you calling my case omgusy. What the heck, there are 4 scum in 9 players (one of whom is an IC), and I didn't come to today with ANY strong scum reads. You don't get to discredit my case on you because I hadn't suspected you earlier, this is mafia not tag, you should judge the case for it's merits. The stuff I'm suspecting you for HADNT EVEN HAPPENED (to me anyways, as I read it all at once) before you made your case on me. I do strongly feel this is how scumrobz manipulates towns - by discrediting everyone who criticizes him. Others who have played with him a lot, what do you think?
even as Voltaire continued to do all the things I was calling him out on (relentless sheeping, constant OMGUS).
Yeah, but you were scum and I was town. I think this is one of those "we call some things scummy, but town is more likely to do them" situations.
I understand not wanting to talk about it, but that's the ugly thing about faking outrage once - you just have to accept you'll be suspected of doing the same every time it happens afterwards.
Especially as I'm equally confused here. This feels the same to me, you know! And I feel you are doing unfair discrediting to my case as well. Your OMGUS-argument is total bollocks.
I'm not discrediting you. You persuaded me! Sheesh.I'm not referring to your case on me, I'm talking about my case on you. You are falsely calling it omgus as an attempt to discredit me.
Well my outrage isn't fake here, and wasn't fake then either (although it was overstated).You know what I mean - obviously not completely fake, but overstated to advance your wincon. Pretty much the same thing.
Remember I read the last 5-6 pages at once when catching up - so your timeline argument doesn't hold water. It's not like I was actively participating and null on you until you posted a case on me after which came after you. Not at all like that. Also, most of the case I'm trying to convey here is your reaction the initial case I built on you - so this actually has precedent (in the earlier case), if that's something that's important to you.
I mean, as I said your arugment felt OMGUS to me because it happened to come like immediately after I put a case on you, when you had said very little about me. The rest of my suspicion I think you answered fairly well and now my case doesn't look like much to me. So...I'm not sure what we're arguing about.
Can someone summarize the Robz-Eevee conversation in four sentences max. I am not going to read all those posts... sorry guys, at least not w/o a good reason to do so.
My side:
Robz makes a four point case on me. (E sheeps the case, which is in my opinion scummier than anything Robz has done.) I point out that none of the points actually hold water. I post suspicions about Robz, namely that him discrediting Voltaire reminds me of MC where he did the exact same thing as scum. Robz finds my answers to his case sufficient and drops it, but brushes my case on him off as omgus. That heightens my suspicions on him because now Robz is discrediting me as well (for invalid reasons, my case isn't omgus, it's just me catching up and finding Robz scummy from what I read - I even explicitly stated that I believe Robz believed in his case on me upon making it, whatever his alignment).
Vote Count 2.yuma
Eevee (1): Robz888
Robz888 (1): Archetype
Archetype (1): 2.71828.....
2.7182 (1): yuma
Gveoniz (1): sudgy
Not Voting (5): liopoil, Gveoniz, Eevee, Jimmmm, Voltaire
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch
Day 2 ends Sunday, November 17 at ~8 PM Forum Time.
Couple of things... can we get a hard deadline. ~8 isn't going to cut it. How about just 8?
Second anyone else extremely concerned that we are three days away from deadline (all of which are weekend days) and we have no wagon bigger than 1 vote? And that we have 5 people not voting. FOS to lio, gveo, eevee and jimmm for not voting. Voltaire, you can vote whenever you want to I suppose... I am just glad you aren't voting for me anymore....
Post count please. I may go with LALL.
Vote: Jimm then, unless someone can demonstrate to me that his post-NHS posting was dramatically higher.
I'm still not 100% (see V/LA thread for context), nor have I caught up completely, but I thought I should at least contribute something, so I re-read yuma. Nothing really jumped out at me except the obvious hammer, and I'm not entirely satisfied with his reaction, especially since he's been telling everyone off for the scumslip thing for a lynch which he hammered. If he wanted more to go off for Day 2, he should have argued strongly against faust's lynch and pushed for someone he had an actual scumread on. I guess the other thing is that he doesn't really strike me as the "masterful" scum yuma that we've seen before (thinking DS9 and MnM off the top of my head). So while I wouldn't rule out him being scum, I do want to look elsewhere when I can.
So some interesting things to observe from Gveo...
18 posts in game:
(List of quotes...)
Above is listed 12 different posts where Gveo either uses his newness as an excuse, says he doesn't have strong reads or is very unsure or needs to go back to find more.
I find it very interesting that so many posts contain this sort of language... I do think it would be worth going back to look at the newbie game he was in--or if sudgy or arch who played/modded in it can just remember--to compare this behavior to that game. Cause I am wondering if this is nervous new scum behavior?
The people in the list are pretty close together, unfortunately I still can have any definite read. I was hoping for more information in D2 but sadly no.(now I read it, I actually wrote "can" despite I meant to say "can't", that may just invalid my argument, hopefully the over all meaning can still be conveyed)
(the list...)
| Player Voltaire Yuma 2.71828..... Robz888 liopoil Eevee sudgy Archetype Gveoniz Jimmmmm | Nov12 @9:30AM (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312820#msg312820) 28 28 17 11 9 9 7 6 3 1 | Nov15 @ 10:00AM 45 46 31 28 11 29 19 7 9 3 | Difference (activity over 72 hours) 17 18 14 17 2 20 12 1 6 2 |
He has said he is busy and will comment on this when he gets back, but I think it's very damning evidence of newer scum (or any scum, really).And now the other thing: My growing suspicion that Eevee is scum.Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on. I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)
Reasons:
1). It's a feeling. Eevee usually screams town to me. He always screams town to me. He's almost always town. He feels a lot different here.
2). He's said some jarringly weird or non-Eevee things (like the Star Wars thing).
3). I was not the only one who thought this. Ashersky was very vocal about how odd Eevee was acting.Eevee's different this game. Changing up a meta? Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads. Hmmmm...
And ashersky died.
4). His most recent long-ish post stakes out very rational ground, a well thought out and written opinion on yuma... that nonetheless concludes yuma is scum, but leaves himself room for doubt. It's hard to tell whether he's like just townie legitimiately unsure and torn up about why yuma did what he did, or scum positioning for a yuma lynch.
Points 3 and 4 are convincing though. A good response from Eevee is in order, I think.
Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on. I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)This was the first new idea that anyone had proposed for a while. Voltaire was still stuck on yuma (happy to see the unvote), we had started to rehash the sudgy/faust ordeal, I was (and am still) going against archetype, robz had his fight/make up session with Voltaire, and then we have our lurkers who hadn't really said much at all. (you being one of them at that point.) I was excited to hear any sort of new case against anyone, and Robz case against you was the first. I also wanted to emphasize it to help guarantee a response. I am also in the business of lynching lurkers, and you fit that category (back then) so I really didn't feel bad pointing out any possible FOS at you.
Points 3 and 4 are convincing though. A good response from Eevee is in order, I think.
His most recent long-ish post stakes out very rational ground, a well thought out and written opinion on yuma... that nonetheless concludes yuma is scum, but leaves himself room for doubt. It's hard to tell whether he's like just townie legitimiately unsure and torn up about why yuma did what he did, or scum positioning for a yuma lynch.
So the decision about Eevee is boiled down to the last line of Voltaire's post. Is this scum!Eevee doing a great manipulation job, or is it town!Eevee finally deciding to take a stand for something after being an observer (lurker) without strong opinions all of D1.Not terribly strong similarities, but basically the same point that reads on Eevee boil down to the strong post about yuma. Which is not a lot to go on. Which is why you were not and are not my primary target at all. In fact, I am very much comforted by your recent activity and really don't think that you would be a good D2 lynch. Archetype and liopoil are much better suited for that.
e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.LAL isn't on the mafiascum wiki for abbreviations. Mind expanding it out for me
lynch a lurker. figured it oute is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.LAL isn't on the mafiascum wiki for abbreviations. Mind expanding it out for me
lynch a lurker. figured it oute is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.LAL isn't on the mafiascum wiki for abbreviations. Mind expanding it out for me
He has said he is busy and will comment on this when he gets back, but I think it's very damning evidence of newer scum (or any scum, really).
e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.Why liopoil over the other lurkers?
Having re-read Gveoniz, yuma's case on him makes sense to me. The overwhelming impression I get is "I'm not sure" and "I can't say". There was also some buddying that stuck out to me a bit (of e and Robz I think). To me the scum narrative is that he's trying to replicate the feeling of not knowing what's going on that he did when he was Town. I guess a problem with that is that nobody knows who all of the scum are. I'll have a look at his other game to see if there's a distinct difference.
As I said earlier, I was overstating it a bit to pressure E. The damning part is that he was willing to sheep a case that bad, smells like someone who wants any lynch that isn't on their team. E's rebuttal about town needing some movement was an ok one though.He has said he is busy and will comment on this when he gets back, but I think it's very damning evidence of newer scum (or any scum, really).
I don't understand this. What is really damning evidence?
Having re-read Gveoniz, yuma's case on him makes sense to me. The overwhelming impression I get is "I'm not sure" and "I can't say". There was also some buddying that stuck out to me a bit (of e and Robz I think). To me the scum narrative is that he's trying to replicate the feeling of not knowing what's going on that he did when he was Town. I guess a problem with that is that nobody knows who all of the scum are. I'll have a look at his other game to see if there's a distinct difference.
I re-read NMIV, and he's almost like a different person. I got very different feels from reading his two games. I think that's definitely enough for a Vote: Gveoniz.
Having re-read Gveoniz, yuma's case on him makes sense to me. The overwhelming impression I get is "I'm not sure" and "I can't say". There was also some buddying that stuck out to me a bit (of e and Robz I think). To me the scum narrative is that he's trying to replicate the feeling of not knowing what's going on that he did when he was Town. I guess a problem with that is that nobody knows who all of the scum are. I'll have a look at his other game to see if there's a distinct difference.
I re-read NMIV, and he's almost like a different person. I got very different feels from reading his two games. I think that's definitely enough for a Vote: Gveoniz.
Can you post the notable differences? I am unable to feel them myself.
The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?
I do not remember. Anything of day 1.The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?
Did he receive any suspicion for it during Day 1? If not, given everybody else missed it I don't think it's all that likely that the partner would have picked up on it.
Ha! A response! Great.2) Yes. In hindsight I should have just pointed out Archetypes role in lynching faust and left it there. Mistake on my part. But it is a mistake whether I am town or scum. I don't think that it says too much about my alignment. For the sake of the argument, say I am scum. I want the archetype lynch. I post something like that and it now draws suspicion on myself. Bad scum move especially because it detracts from my desired lynch and gives people a reason not to trust me.
First of all, I admit I borrowed a page from Robz's playbook about appearing convinced your case is good to pressure the subject into giving a more revealing reaction. It's terribly unhelpful when pretty ok cases solicit a lukewarm reaction because the subject feels he doesn't need to say much about it because even author of the case himself doesn't seem like he believes in it enough to lynch you solely based on it. But, onto the actual response. Not quoting to keep this readable.
1. I hadn't been reading the thread, so I didn't ever experience the stale lull you described. I was surprised by the easiness of catching up, so I absolutely buy this point. I still believe the scum narrative I introduced is valid, but so is this town narrative of yours. Good response!
2. True, it's not totally arbitrary - but you are confirming that you picked the criteria partially to make Archetype look bad. That's just.. bad scumhunting and a mistake, or scum trying to manipulate town towards a mislynch he deems easy (or, well, a lynch of someone not in their team anyways). Again, I believe that you believe in your Archetype-case, multiball is quite tricky. I just disagree with your way of pursuing it, it goes under manipulation whatever your alignment. Any subset of three having a good chance of hitting scum is by no means a reason to look at any trio harder than other people in itself, but I'm sure you understand this.
3. I feel dumb but.. I don't follow this point. Could you reword it?
e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.
So some interesting things to observe from Gveo...
18 posts in game:
(List of quotes...)
Above is listed 12 different posts where Gveo either uses his newness as an excuse, says he doesn't have strong reads or is very unsure or needs to go back to find more.
I find it very interesting that so many posts contain this sort of language... I do think it would be worth going back to look at the newbie game he was in--or if sudgy or arch who played/modded in it can just remember--to compare this behavior to that game. Cause I am wondering if this is nervous new scum behavior?
I say I am not sure because I am not sure. I admit that I fear to make mistake (more than others in this game(including 2.7), I can see that they are more confident in their posts). And I understand that this is not helpful and cannot give interaction and read to others.
All I said above are truth but those do not clear me from being "nervous scum", So:
I have been equally nervous in NMIV, it is not shown as clearly because most of the other players were new. And after looking at it myself there the last post I made is still pretty uncertainThe people in the list are pretty close together, unfortunately I still can have any definite read. I was hoping for more information in D2 but sadly no.(now I read it, I actually wrote "can" despite I meant to say "can't", that may just invalid my argument, hopefully the over all meaning can still be conveyed)
(the list...)
[You may ask:But you are no longer a complete newbie here now, you have played before so your should be able to be more confident.]
That is what I was thinking when I enter this game, but this turned out to be overwhelming, the dynamic of this game is different form a lurky newbie game. that is why I keep saying that I am unsure and need to look at it more.
Also, everyone here have reasons to avoid mistakes and look like scummy, so it is basically neutral (it is probably a bit better for scums though).
Town: avoid mis-lynch, give the scums better chance to shoot actual scums.
Scum: avoid lynch, reduce chance of being shoot by the other team.
That is what I can think of right now, please inform me if I missed any questions. I will do the reread and read list now.
I do not remember. Anything of day 1.The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?
Did he receive any suspicion for it during Day 1? If not, given everybody else missed it I don't think it's all that likely that the partner would have picked up on it.
Only reason I wouldn't go with Archetype is his mislynched meta. His vote on faust was easily the worst (least useful/helpful) of the lot.
...So I think we agree that the doctor claiming only slightly increases the chance that a weak PR dies. Where we disagree is if town has something to gain by the doctor claiming. I don't think they do.
But was this case brought forward?I do not remember. Anything of day 1.The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?
Did he receive any suspicion for it during Day 1? If not, given everybody else missed it I don't think it's all that likely that the partner would have picked up on it.
I voted for him day1. I think I was the only one.
But was this case brought forward?I do not remember. Anything of day 1.The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?
Did he receive any suspicion for it during Day 1? If not, given everybody else missed it I don't think it's all that likely that the partner would have picked up on it.
I voted for him day1. I think I was the only one.
I have nothing against lynching liopoil. I quite literally remember nothing of him, other than his strong opinions on doctor claiming that were a total null tell.
So I think It would be B > D > A > C. But I am not sure right now.
This blows my mind. I can see B being before A. But no way should D be before A. No way unless Gveoniz knows something that we don't.
vote: Gveo. I am generally with Robz that I don't like lynching newer players, but this really makes me wonder (and I should mention that Gveo has played one game already, so isn't technically a true newbie)
Interesting. Now if we can pull together a hammer on liopoil before anyone has a chance to respond........So I think we agree that the doctor claiming only slightly increases the chance that a weak PR dies. Where we disagree is if town has something to gain by the doctor claiming. I don't think they do.
OMGSCUMSLIP!
Interesting. Now if we can pull together a hammer on liopoil before anyone has a chance to respond........So I think we agree that the doctor claiming only slightly increases the chance that a weak PR dies. Where we disagree is if town has something to gain by the doctor claiming. I don't think they do.
OMGSCUMSLIP!
This was archetype's response to that line of reasoning on D1:Only reason I wouldn't go with Archetype is his mislynched meta. His vote on faust was easily the worst (least useful/helpful) of the lot.
I agree.
I take almost all responsibility for me being mislynched so often. I am a scummy player. I don't think I've ever said I wasn't (not that you're saying I have). If you think I'm scum, then vote for me. They're your reads, man.Now, I don't know the meta to base my judgements on, but I can see where giving someone a D1 pass based on past mislynches that occur because of similar behavior. A D2 pass for the same reason? Not as sure about that.
Can't tell if this is serious or not.... but....
Wait, I thought he was asking if I was serious, not you. So if I found you to be serious when you weren't, is it a scum read on me because you weren't seriously serious about being serious about liopoil. (ok I will stop the joke now)Can't tell if this is serious or not.... but....
Not particularly. Thought I'd poke the fire a bit. ;)
Wait, I thought he was asking if I was serious, not you. So if I found you to be serious when you weren't, is it a scum read on me because you weren't seriously serious about being serious about liopoil. (ok I will stop the joke now)Can't tell if this is serious or not.... but....
Not particularly. Thought I'd poke the fire a bit. ;)
Wait, I thought he was asking if I was serious, not you. So if I found you to be serious when you weren't, is it a scum read on me because you weren't seriously serious about being serious about liopoil. (ok I will stop the joke now)Can't tell if this is serious or not.... but....
Not particularly. Thought I'd poke the fire a bit. ;)
asking about jimmmm... 2.7's quote got caught up in the mix... although I don't really like that he latched onto it the way he did so
I can't resist. For Eevee's sake (since he likes Star Wars):Wait, I thought he was asking if I was serious, not you. So if I found you to be serious when you weren't, is it a scum read on me because you weren't seriously serious about being serious about liopoil. (ok I will stop the joke now)Can't tell if this is serious or not.... but....
Not particularly. Thought I'd poke the fire a bit. ;)
Seriously?
asking about jimmmm... 2.7's quote got caught up in the mix... although I don't really like that he latched onto it the way he did so
Complete agreement. vote: e
Does Jimmm use humor more as town or scum though? I am more likely to use humor when I am town.
Well, I'm staying with Jimm though as long as there is some chance of that lynch. Biggest lurker, and humor defense.
I guess 2.7 went the humor route too.
I just don't like lynching the most active and useful person in a game with 4 lurkers, you know?
Does Jimmm use humor more as town or scum though? I am more likely to use humor when I am town.
I don't recall Jimm being a frequent user of joke and smiley defense, or else I wouldn't have broguht up. I accept thta some people do that--you do, in fact--but Jimm is pretty serious usually. And this is a serious moment and that is a serious vote and his response was weird.
We're all Vig's! 8)
Remember kids, no vigging day 1. ;)
robz: The acceptance of my inactivity is notable D1, not so on D2. I do not like the negative interaction with the IC, but it seems that they get over it.
Continue on with my read list:
Jimmmmm: Started posting, I obviously do not agree with everything he say here, but I will leave my thing later. He is being reasonable, not enough post to get an thing out of him.
robz: The acceptance of my inactivity is notable D1, not so on D2. I do not like the negative interaction with the IC, but it seems that they get over it.
yuma: Not so good when he hammered, but have been townie since then.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The deadline is coming very soon, And it is weekends, fortunately I should be around at the deadline.(I think I used this as separation line in NMIV :) )
You are moving so quickly that I cannot even catch up with you. I am really tired now and cannot give comprehensive explanation. I am sorry but I have to leave it here now.
You've never jumped on my archetype case. now seems like as good a time as any. Let me refresh my case:I guess 2.7 went the humor route too.
I just don't like lynching the most active and useful person in a game with 4 lurkers, you know?
Yup.
I'll happily vote for someone else, there's 3 more scum out there.
unvote
The IC's vote is for sale! Fresh IC votes, get 'em while they're hot! Step right up and make your case.
[I am still waiting for answers to the following questions:]Even more convinced now since he hasn't responded to that. And that quote is 72 hours old.The longer Archetype refuses to explain himself for things such as these, the more convinced I am of his scuminess.
- why he jumped on the faust wagon (never explained).
- Or why he included "more of him being a newbie" in this post
Very concerned by 2.7's trying to get me lynched. Not neccerssarily because it's me he's trying to start a wagon on (but that does play a big part) but more of him being a newbie and doing something like this. What he said awhile ago about "Voting alongside the Doctor" certainly rubbed me the wrong way.- Or his seemingly random vote for Robz.
Sorry guys, been very busy with quite a few things. I should be good to go on Friday.Now, I do want to give him a chance to respond so no quickhammers or anything. But I will be expecting some really good input if he wants to save himself.
...if I don't get lynched before then.
I just realized how demanding that comes across. A nicer way to say that is "I hope we do not quickhammer him"Sorry guys, been very busy with quite a few things. I should be good to go on Friday.Now, I do want to give him a chance to respond so no quickhammers or anything. But I will be expecting some really good input if he wants to save himself.
...if I don't get lynched before then.
I just realized how demanding that comes across. A nicer way to say that is "I hope we do not quickhammer him"Sorry guys, been very busy with quite a few things. I should be good to go on Friday.Now, I do want to give him a chance to respond so no quickhammers or anything. But I will be expecting some really good input if he wants to save himself.
...if I don't get lynched before then.
vote: archetype after seeing that he hasn't responded to 2.7's case for 72 hours. The guy does have a mislynch meta, but 72 hours? He has had time to send out pms and start a game (I think this needs to be addressed elsewhere... but if you don't have time to play the games you are in, should you be running them? I think it is a question that we need to address, maybe not here, but it has kinda become a thing....)
Vote Count 2.yuma1
Gveoniz (2): sudgy, Jimmmm
Robz888 (1): Archetype
Archetype (3): 2.71828....., Eevee, yuma
Jimmmm (1): Robz
Not Voting (5): liopoil, Gveoniz, voltaire
vote: archetype after seeing that he hasn't responded to 2.7's case for 72 hours. The guy does have a mislynch meta, but 72 hours? He has had time to send out pms and start a game (I think this needs to be addressed elsewhere... but if you don't have time to play the games you are in, should you be running them? I think it is a question that we need to address, maybe not here, but it has kinda become a thing....)
Vote Count 2.yuma1
Gveoniz (2): sudgy, Jimmmm
Robz888 (1): Archetype
Archetype (3): 2.71828....., Eevee, yuma
Jimmmm (1): Robz
Not Voting (5): liopoil, Gveoniz, voltaire
But does that make him more likely to be scum? Archetype is not my preferred lurker lynch at all.
I put lynching scum (active or lurker) as our best option both times
4) We lynch an active player who is town- This is just bad news all around. We lose an active contributor. Same bad situation for town as described in (3). I really hope this is not what we do.
4) We lynch an active player who is town- This is just bad news all around. We lose an active contributor. Same bad situation for town as described in (3). I really hope this is not what we do.
Note here that the only active player being discussed for a lynch is 2.7... so this isn't coming from a non-biased PoV.
As an active player who is not currently being discussed for a lynch, do you disagree with me though? I mean, when comparing the two (lynching town!lurk vs town!active) would you ever come to the conclusion in a non-biased way that lynching town!active is better? If you do, please describe that situation to me.4) We lynch an active player who is town- This is just bad news all around. We lose an active contributor. Same bad situation for town as described in (3). I really hope this is not what we do.
Note here that the only active player being discussed for a lynch is 2.7... so this isn't coming from a non-biased PoV.
As an active player who is not currently being discussed for a lynch, do you disagree with me though? I mean, when comparing the two (lynching town!lurk vs town!active) would you ever come to the conclusion in a non-biased way that lynching town!active is better? If you do, please describe that situation to me.4) We lynch an active player who is town- This is just bad news all around. We lose an active contributor. Same bad situation for town as described in (3). I really hope this is not what we do.
Note here that the only active player being discussed for a lynch is 2.7... so this isn't coming from a non-biased PoV.
Lynching lurkers is a very safe place for scum to be. Because when we go back and try and figure out why they have the built in answer of "he was lurking so I voted for him"
Lynching lurkers is a very safe place for scum to be. Because when we go back and try and figure out why they have the built in answer of "he was lurking so I voted for him"Good point. I wonder why all the scum haven't jumped on my archetype case. They have had the time to. We would be at L-1 (not counting the yuma or eevee vote) Makes me think they are lurking too much to jump on the case without being suspected themselves. Either that or self-voting is frowned upon.
Ok, a little tongue-in-cheek. There are plenty of reasons for not following me if you are scum.Lynching lurkers is a very safe place for scum to be. Because when we go back and try and figure out why they have the built in answer of "he was lurking so I voted for him"Good point. I wonder why all the scum haven't jumped on my archetype case. They have had the time to. We would be at L-1 (not counting the yuma or eevee vote) Makes me think they are lurking too much to jump on the case without being suspected themselves. Either that or self-voting is frowned upon.
Lynching lurkers is a very safe place for scum to be. Because when we go back and try and figure out why they have the built in answer of "he was lurking so I voted for him"
I think you tend to be overly fearful that if we lynch someone for uncomplicated reasons, the scum who voted for the lynch will give un-analyzable answers.
Just a note on scumslips, Arch had one in Bankers, and got lynched for it.
Lynching lurkers is a very safe place for scum to be. Because when we go back and try and figure out why they have the built in answer of "he was lurking so I voted for him"
I think you tend to be overly fearful that if we lynch someone for uncomplicated reasons, the scum who voted for the lynch will give un-analyzable answers.
to an extent yes. But just as an example I take us back to the <i>voltgloss</i> scumslip. Was anyone able to get any information out of that lynch? Shraeye pretended to do, but only got liopoil mislynched for it. Obvious reasons to vote provide obvious reasons to vote and I don't think it is unreasonable to expect scum to give those answers, or for town to give them for that matter, thus making it extremely hard to distinguish town and scum based off that information.
Let's all sheep the dead ashersky and vote: liopoil!
I'd like to hear from liopoil too.
I'm here, caught up. I have reads too. I'll put them all together and stuff hopefully soon.
I have time for that too:
town to scum (might change a bit when I actually write stuff up):
liopoil/voltaire
sudgy
e
yuma
gveoniz
jimmmm
robz
eevee
archetype
Ok. It's been awhile since I've checked back here. So there are 4 scum among Robz, liopoil, sudgy, myself, yuma, 2.7, Gveoniz, Eevee, and Jimmmmm. I still think that out of those people, we are likely to find scum amongst Robz, yuma, and 2.7.
2.7: Coming out against me hard early game continues that into D2. He is also not playing like a newbie, which scares me. I think that his partner told him that I'd be an easy lynch to push through. I'd expect a vet to let him know that. Which leads me to...
Robz: I think this is 2.7's most likely partner. He's defended him in the past and has mentioned that "Arch is often mislynch, but I'd still lynch him here". Not quite as strong of a read as I have on 2.7, but this is where I'd look if he is lynched and flips scum.
yuma: The weird early hammer still rubs me the wrong way. Trying the lead the conversation as always, but I'm OK with it since it's breathing some life back into the game.
Still confident with my vote and think that out of the three his lynch would be the most informative and quite likely kill one of the Mafia.
Ok. It's been awhile since I've checked back here. So there are 4 scum among Robz, liopoil, sudgy, myself, yuma, 2.7, Gveoniz, Eevee, and Jimmmmm. I still think that out of those people, we are likely to find scum amongst Robz, yuma, and 2.7.
I was called out specifically as scummy for doing a similar thing. Saying that within a given group of 3 players, at least one will be scummy.Ok. It's been awhile since I've checked back here. So there are 4 scum among Robz, liopoil, sudgy, myself, yuma, 2.7, Gveoniz, Eevee, and Jimmmmm. I still think that out of those people, we are likely to find scum amongst Robz, yuma, and 2.7.
I know you talk about the three of us below, but what separates us from the rest of the pack? Or in other words, what makes everyone else less likely to be mafia? You can't just say "these three people are most likely to be scum" and not explain why. Are we connected somehow? have similar traits? Or is it that we are all really active posters and hence high in your memory?
E: Well, the timeline, as I see it, for E's day 2 is he does a couple of very scummy things (his arbitrary excluding and including people of different lists and deciding where the scum lies based on his assumptions reeked of scumI gave my response here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314245#msg314245) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314292#msg314292). Why is making your list any less scummy than me making mine?
I was called out specifically as scummy for doing a similar thing. Saying that within a given group of 3 players, at least one will be scummy.Ok. It's been awhile since I've checked back here. So there are 4 scum among Robz, liopoil, sudgy, myself, yuma, 2.7, Gveoniz, Eevee, and Jimmmmm. I still think that out of those people, we are likely to find scum amongst Robz, yuma, and 2.7.
I know you talk about the three of us below, but what separates us from the rest of the pack? Or in other words, what makes everyone else less likely to be mafia? You can't just say "these three people are most likely to be scum" and not explain why. Are we connected somehow? have similar traits? Or is it that we are all really active posters and hence high in your memory?E: Well, the timeline, as I see it, for E's day 2 is he does a couple of very scummy things (his arbitrary excluding and including people of different lists and deciding where the scum lies based on his assumptions reeked of scumI gave my response here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314245#msg314245) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314292#msg314292). Why is making your list any less scummy than me making mine?
I'm pretty sure that at least two of Robz, 2.7, and yuma are scum and will lynch almost exclusively from that pool.seems too confident for someone who hasn't been around all that much.
I still think that out of those people, we are likely to find scum amongst Robz, yuma, and 2.7.okay, here's his explanation he posted recently. The reasoning on E doesn't actually explain why he suspects him, but then bases his robz read off him being E's scumbuddy. Then his thing on Yuma just says that the hammer rubs him the wrong way. Yeah, I didn't like it much either, but as you'll see when I get to Yuma, I read him a bit town for it, not scum. This is not a post with reasons for his reads at all. And he hasn't had any this day. (granted, I haven't really scumhunted today either, but I have now!) But anyway, I get the sense that he is just posting to post, because he needs to because if he doesn't he'll get lynched. Now, it's possible that he's doing this as town (in which case that's bad), but I think it's more likely he's doing it as scum.
2.7: Coming out against me hard early game continues that into D2. He is also not playing like a newbie, which scares me. I think that his partner told him that I'd be an easy lynch to push through. I'd expect a vet to let him know that. Which leads me to...
Robz: I think this is 2.7's most likely partner. He's defended him in the past and has mentioned that "Arch is often mislynch, but I'd still lynch him here". Not quite as strong of a read as I have on 2.7, but this is where I'd look if he is lynched and flips scum.
yuma: The weird early hammer still rubs me the wrong way. Trying the lead the conversation as always, but I'm OK with it since it's breathing some life back into the game.
One reservation I have about lynching yuma over what he did is that he has been pretty willing to let the day end early and not suspecting people who hammer too soon in past games, specifically, B2B. What he did was a very bad move if he is town, but it's also a move I can believe he might have made as town. Is it more likely that he is scum, trying to avoid the NK/push a lynch through/end the day early? could be...and after further thought I believe that it's actually much more likely that he did it as town. I don't think he would do it as scum, because of how much attention it would attract, and how much more likely it is to get him NKed. In the above post, I say 3 reasons he might do it as scum. They are all bad though I think:
town!yuma didn't advance his wincon yesterday. He either a) thought he was at the time for some reason, or b) was frustrated about faust getting lynched and let that get the better of him. Either one is plausible in my mind.
48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
Or you are scum and just bold.
Even if you are, telling that to scum is rather unhelpful, don't you think? Seems more like scum trying to absolve themselves from responsibility for a bad vote beforehand.48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
Or you are scum and just bold.
Or I am Town and just have no idea.
Even if you are, telling that to scum is rather unhelpful, don't you think? Seems more like scum trying to absolve themselves from responsibility for a bad vote beforehand.48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
Or you are scum and just bold.
Or I am Town and just have no idea.
well arch's return left a lot to be desired... whereas lio's at least at something to it.
I am fine with lynching arch. Best case he is scum, worst case we lose someone who barely cares enough to post in the game and explain made up reads.
48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.
e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.
Only reason I wouldn't go with Archetype is his mislynched meta. His vote on faust was easily the worst (least useful/helpful) of the lot.
vote: archetype after seeing that he hasn't responded to 2.7's case for 72 hours. The guy does have a mislynch meta, but 72 hours? He has had time to send out pms and start a game (I think this needs to be addressed elsewhere... but if you don't have time to play the games you are in, should you be running them? I think it is a question that we need to address, maybe not here, but it has kinda become a thing....)But does that make him more likely to be scum? Archetype is not my preferred lurker lynch at all.
Let's all sheep the dead ashersky and vote: liopoil!
Eh, don't like an arch lynch.
vote: Robz
Eh, don't like an arch lynch.
I really didnt' want to vote for you arch. Because you are constantly mislynched... but is these sort of things that sometimes force my hand. Seriously... do you see that these sort of things make you look scummy? Or do you think that we are just a bunch of dummies who keep mislynching you. Someone is to blame, I thought that it might have just been f.ds getting you wrong, but now I am thinking that a lot of the blame falls on you for being a scummy player when town, you have to take some responsibility for that... so I guess I won't vote for you, but maybe you are scum this time?I take almost all responsibility for me being mislynched so often. I am a scummy player. I don't think I've ever said I wasn't (not that you're saying I have). If you think I'm scum, then vote for me. They're your reads, man.
That's the hammer.
That's the hammer.
IT IS?!?!?
On things I think about is the toleration of my inactivity (form robz and 2.7?), I personally of course like to be tolerated and understand and appreciate your understandings. But comparing myself with archetype, who is considered (quite) scummy partially because of inactivity. I do have a concern (although there are reasons like "I have more actual content" and "I am just a semi-newbie") that one may get some benefits that I cannot perceive yet.My intention for that post was to express the concern of them buddying me. to get potential benefits.
It is possible that I just think a bit too much about this and mistreated your kindnesses, if that is the case, please accept my apology.
I can see that the case against me is mainly frequent mention of newness and uncertainty, buddying and acting differently from NMIV.
The frequent mention of my newness was already talked about and I cannot do much to it unless I am out of my newness or lie to you that I am confident.
Jimmmmm:
For the buddying part, are you taliking about this post?On things I think about is the toleration of my inactivity (form robz and 2.7?), I personally of course like to be tolerated and understand and appreciate your understandings. But comparing myself with archetype, who is considered (quite) scummy partially because of inactivity. I do have a concern (although there are reasons like "I have more actual content" and "I am just a semi-newbie") that one may get some benefits that I cannot perceive yet.My intention for that post was to express the concern of them buddying me. to get potential benefits.
It is possible that I just think a bit too much about this and mistreated your kindnesses, if that is the case, please accept my apology.
I did also stated that 2.7 did a good job in this game considering his newness D1, but I don't think that is buddying considering that he was generally agreed to be doing a great job.
For acting differently, I also have also talked about it. I of course do no act exactly the same in two game, but how differently were they? I cannot see clear different myself (but of course it is not up to me to judge myself).
Jimmmm said that I have used more "I don't know", "I can't say" and "I am unable to feel" in this game. I read through my own post can find 7 posts contining uncertainty, newness and that sort of thing, that is lower than yuma's count here. I can say that is that box in that game is acting clearly scummily so I can do better there
Sudgy also mentioned it but do not said anything in detail.
---------------------------------
I can accept a lurker lynch, 2.7 is also possible.
That's the hammer.dude... that was scary! check next time before you say that... :P
Liopoil explicitly mentioned that he will continue his post from yesterday. I want to see that before a lynch.Indeed. continuing....
whoops, accidentally posted before I was done. I still have Jimmmmm and Eevee to do. Back to work.....
also, yay, inflating post count! ;)
I am usually against these ideas, but I think it has merit this time.hmmmm.... makes me wonder about liopoil....
1. It helps scum shoot each other. We want that. I think this is the best part.
2. The doc still won't die, and we have an IC, which is good.
Now, Vote: 2.71828..... because he inflated his post count at the beginning. He even admitted it.
I am surprised that Gveoniz has not gotten as much attention as other lurkers. I think I probably prefer this lynch over an archetype lynch. He does have a bit more content than arch though.....
is this a joke? you know that post is by sudgy, not me right? :Pwhoops, accidentally posted before I was done. I still have Jimmmmm and Eevee to do. Back to work.....
also, yay, inflating post count! ;)I am usually against these ideas, but I think it has merit this time.hmmmm.... makes me wonder about liopoil....
1. It helps scum shoot each other. We want that. I think this is the best part.
2. The doc still won't die, and we have an IC, which is good.
Now, Vote: 2.71828..... because he inflated his post count at the beginning. He even admitted it.
I know. I was just stealing his line, so I thought I should give him credit. And of course that would be a serious RVS vote.....but we aren't in RVS now are we. So yes, a jokeis this a joke? you know that post is by sudgy, not me right? :Pwhoops, accidentally posted before I was done. I still have Jimmmmm and Eevee to do. Back to work.....
also, yay, inflating post count! ;)I am usually against these ideas, but I think it has merit this time.hmmmm.... makes me wonder about liopoil....
1. It helps scum shoot each other. We want that. I think this is the best part.
2. The doc still won't die, and we have an IC, which is good.
Now, Vote: 2.71828..... because he inflated his post count at the beginning. He even admitted it.
Holy crap, L-2. Sheesh.
Yeah, I'm here. Still on page 20 of the reread. I promise I'll have it done by tomorrow.
Hey, guys please dont lynch me. As some of you are aware, I'm V/LA and am only on mobile. I promise to give this top priority (Well, 2nd. I have the BMX stuff) when I get back. I don't mind too much if you lynch me, but at least give me a chance to defend myself.
Man, I knew that Archetype was scum here. He responded way too willingly to my ridiculous 'talk or die!!' post.I was SO scummy! I'm surprised I didn't get lynched D1!
But thank you Insomniac!
Mafia MVP: Insomniac
I don't like either of these posts... why??e has rocketed up the scum ladder today.rereading day 2/catching up and wow, this, first and foremost this.
This post responding to Robz's case is very convincing.
So, summary:
Want to Lynch: gveoniz, archetype
Willing to Lynch: Robz888, Jimmmmm
Don't want to lynch: Yuma, sudgy, eevee, E
Won't lynch: Liopoil, Voltaire
I'll Vote: Gveoniz to see if there's support for that because I slightly prefer it over archetype, but if there isn't I will voice intent to vote for archetype
I'm willing to vote Gveoniz, and would rather him than Arch.so then do it! with your vote it would be 3 on Gveo and 3 on arch. (granted, yuma will probably revote for arch eventually).
I'm willing to vote Gveoniz, and would rather him than Arch.so then do it! with your vote it would be 3 on Gveo and 3 on arch. (granted, yuma will probably revote for arch eventually).
Did you guys not read yuma's case on Archetype? I don't know how anyone could read it and go, "eh, he's an okay lynch, but this other lynch on a lurker we don't understand as well is better."
Reads list! But looking over it, it's horrible..
I'm not sure who the worst lurker is, but I'll start with Vote: archetype. I have sympathy for Jimmm (and know from other games he really has been super busy), subbing is really hard. liopoil I feeeel is a lurker but our activities may have just been timed differently.voltaire:
The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?
Eh, don't like an arch lynch.but what does he think of gveoniz...?
Reads list! But looking over it, it's horrible..
then fix it?
Reads list! But looking over it, it's horrible..
then fix it?
Horrible as in, lots of null reads.
Only reason I wouldn't go with Archetype is his mislynched meta. His vote on faust was easily the worst (least useful/helpful) of the lot.
my biggest reservation about lynching arch is that he gets mislynched a lot. it's not enough to make me not want to lynch him, but it's enough to prefer gveoniz. I think that this is probably different from when he has been mislynched, but I'm not certain enough.
robz: The acceptance of my inactivity is notable D1, not so on D2. I do not like the negative interaction with the IC, but it seems that they get over it.
Well, I generally give a free pass to newbie players on Day 1. That's why your lurking was tolerable yesterday, but not today.
The one that yuma did the research to show isn't even really a good excuse (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314651#msg314651)?
Reads list! But looking over it, it's horrible.
Robz888: Nothing sticks out to me. At all. Null.
Liopoil: Also nothing sticks out. Null, but slightly slightly scummy for lurking.
Archetype: Really lurky and not much else, even when asked for a defense. Scum.
Yuma: Why does nobody have much that sticks out to me? The only thing yuma has against him is the hammer, but other than that it's been fine. He seems to be towny, but with the hammer it bring him to null.
e: I find him towny, despite what you say.
Gveoniz: As I've explained earlier, scum.
Eevee: Also null.
Jimmmmm: Null-to-towny, he doesn't remind me of RMM7 scum Jimmmmm.
... if arch wants to stop being mislynched, he has to start doing something about it.
have logged over 2 days worth of timeha! that's nothing! (well, okay, it's a lot for 1 game probably), but there's multiple people who have over 100 days spent overall. I'm at 57 days myself.
I am also interested to see if my read was right.And I mean, this is not a reason to end the day early.
Vote count please, to make sure he really is at L-1.
Vote count please, to make sure he really is at L-1.On phone, but see yumas. I'm pretty sure it's right.
Reads list! But looking over it, it's horrible.
Robz888: Nothing sticks out to me. At all. Null.
Liopoil: Also nothing sticks out. Null, but slightly slightly scummy for lurking.
Archetype: Really lurky and not much else, even when asked for a defense. Scum.
Yuma: Why does nobody have much that sticks out to me? The only thing yuma has against him is the hammer, but other than that it's been fine. He seems to be towny, but with the hammer it bring him to null.
e: I find him towny, despite what you say.
Gveoniz: As I've explained earlier, scum.
Eevee: Also null.
Jimmmmm: Null-to-towny, he doesn't remind me of RMM7 scum Jimmmmm.
Ugh, this is like the quintessential, "I have no genuine opinions so let me make them up--oh, well that's hard, okay just say a lot of blah--they are going to call me out for this, let me start by acknowledging it--" post. This is actually probably the scummiest thing you've done yet.
It's getting somewhat close to the deadline so I would be fine with lynching Arch (but would prefer Gveo as I've been saying, but Arch looks more viable at this point)afterIF he and Voltaire say something.
It's getting somewhat close to the deadline so I would be fine with lynching Arch (but would prefer Gveo as I've been saying, but Arch looks more viable at this point) after Voltaire says something and IF Archetype says something.
FTFY
deadline is at 8pm tomorrow. I'll hammer a bitI think that is a bit too close. make it 3pm, not 6pm.abefore 6pm, or once both voltaire and arch have had their last words of the day, whichever comes first. Is that cutting it too close?
Just... hammer... already....I just don't get this. What's the benefit? We get to find out if we made the right choice sooner? I want to know too, but I'm not going to sacrifice even a tiny bit by hammering now.
Just... hammer... already....I just don't get this. What's the benefit? We get to find out if we made the right choice sooner? I want to know too, but I'm not going to sacrifice even a tiny bit by hammering now.
Just... hammer... already....I just don't get this. What's the benefit? We get to find out if we made the right choice sooner? I want to know too, but I'm not going to sacrifice even a tiny bit by hammering now.
I don't really think there's a particular benefit to not lynching. Voltaire said he was gone this weekend, didn't he?
ah, whatever. Jimmmmm, once you've caught up, either hammer, or I'll do it. I don't particularly care who it is, because hammer stats don't matter (looking at you ashersky).(reason I'm not doing it now is because hey, maybe Jimmmm has something to say :P)
ah, whatever. Jimmmmm, once you've caught up, either hammer, or I'll do it. I don't particularly care who it is, because hammer stats don't matter (looking at you ashersky).(reason I'm not doing it now is because hey, maybe Jimmmm has something to say :P)
I CAN'T WATCH THIS UNTIL I GET BACK FROM WORK. HOLY ***********************.
Also, I super-lucked out and got 6 tickets for my friends for the theater screening in Chicago for the 50th, and I'm going to a big Doctor Who trivia this weekend...my life has been nothing but Who for the past two weeks and will be for the next two, and it's amazing!
And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
Nope.And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
Are you?
Nope.And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
Are you?
Nope.And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
Are you?
Nope.And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
Are you?
If so then why the hell didn't you post?
Vote Count 2.yuma
Eevee (1): Robz888
Robz888 (1): Archetype
Archetype (1): 2.71828.....
2.7182 (1): yuma
Gveoniz (1): sudgy
Not Voting (5): liopoil, Gveoniz, Eevee, Jimmmm, Voltaire
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch
Day 2 ends Sunday, November 17 at ~8 PM Forum Time.
Couple of things... can we get a hard deadline. ~8 isn't going to cut it. How about just 8?
Second anyone else extremely concerned that we are three days away from deadline (all of which are weekend days) and we have no wagon bigger than 1 vote? And that we have 5 people not voting. FOS to lio, gveo, eevee and jimmm for not voting. Voltaire, you can vote whenever you want to I suppose... I am just glad you aren't voting for me anymore....
Yeah, I don't feel like we're in great shape.
I don't want to lynch myself, Voltaire, yuma, or 2.7, basically.
Eevee and sudgy are really the only two players I've looked at very in depth. And I don't come away with much more than, well they could be scum.
Scum have to be lurking, right? Maybe a lurker lynch? Liopoil? Archetype? Gveoniz?
Vote: Archetype
Will also vote for Gveoniz. Liopoil and Jimm have done enough to avoid the lurker lynch, at which point I would need like other reasons to lynch them, and I don't have any.
If Archetype is scum, I think Eevee is suspicious. I know Eevee is voting for Arch, but I feel like he keeps trying to subtly push things in a different direction. Like just now when he said, okay doesn't matter which lurker, let's do the one Voltaire thinks (even though we all mostly prefer Arch), and then tried to find Jimm scummy for something that even he doesn't really think is scummy.
Eh, don't like an arch lynch.
vote: Robz
And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
im caught up and actually feel I got a decent grasp on the game despite not reading for so long. I'm super tired, so just a quick reads list to maybe spark up some discussion. I'll be back tomorrow with explanations, comments on robz's case and answers to e's clarifying questions.
but for now, I'm just mystical and give reads without explanations
town: yuma (!), Voltaire (duh)
scum: robz, e, sudgy, archetype
wouldn't have remembered they are playing had e not just referenced them (nice job with the summary posts btw, your effort is appreciated): liopoil (!), jimm, whoever else isn't mentioned except for gweoniz who I need to reread, jury is still out.
I feel I had another town read but my brain is failing me. more to
come tomorrow!
Holy cow. Anybody reread him in NMIV, and you'll agree. Vote: Gveoniz.I'll do that, but I'm wary.. feels exactly the kind of thing his partner would have warned him about night 1.
vote: e
"Well," Woody said, "I don't believe the night could have gone better for us."pretty much :)
I'll analyze the mafia at some point, but back to Vote: Gveoniz for his drastic differences in playstyle.don't really like this because while I suspect Gveoniz too, looking at stuff based on the two scum flips we have will be much more effective.
And, yay, us!
"Well," Woody said, "I don't believe the night could have gone better for us."pretty much :)
I was really getting back into this game at the end of D2... but then arch flipped town and I was feeling a bit apathetic about the game again. But not I'm feeling much more interested, lots new stuff to look at! less flimsy reads! plus we actually have a decent chance of winning!I'll analyze the mafia at some point, but back to Vote: Gveoniz for his drastic differences in playstyle.don't really like this because while I suspect Gveoniz too, looking at stuff based on the two scum flips we have will be much more effective.
And, yay, us!
Eevee,JessieLot's O' Huggin' Bear, an Ice Mafia Goon, was burned in the night!
Robz888,Slinky DogStinky Pete, a Fire Mafia Goon, was frozen in the night!
-If there are only 1 Ice mafia goon and 1 Fire mafia goon left alive at the end of the game, this is what will happen:looks like the big scum are the ones we're looking for, and that robz's team wins if the two scum are left alive. This doesn't matter much yet (in terms of how we should play), but it may later.
If it's Big Baby and Big Al, Fire mafia wins.
If it's Big Baby andStinky Pete, Ice mafia wins.
If it'sLot's O' Huggin' Bearand Big Al, Ice mafia wins
If it'sLot's O' Huggin' BearandStinky Pete, Fire mafia wins.
well, I get that, but why put down a vote you really don't know about at all? it's like RVS ish."Well," Woody said, "I don't believe the night could have gone better for us."pretty much :)
I was really getting back into this game at the end of D2... but then arch flipped town and I was feeling a bit apathetic about the game again. But not I'm feeling much more interested, lots new stuff to look at! less flimsy reads! plus we actually have a decent chance of winning!I'll analyze the mafia at some point, but back to Vote: Gveoniz for his drastic differences in playstyle.don't really like this because while I suspect Gveoniz too, looking at stuff based on the two scum flips we have will be much more effective.
And, yay, us!
I'll look at those, and maybe change my vote then as well. This is for now.
well, I get that, but why put down a vote you really don't know about at all? it's like RVS ish."Well," Woody said, "I don't believe the night could have gone better for us."pretty much :)
I was really getting back into this game at the end of D2... but then arch flipped town and I was feeling a bit apathetic about the game again. But not I'm feeling much more interested, lots new stuff to look at! less flimsy reads! plus we actually have a decent chance of winning!I'll analyze the mafia at some point, but back to Vote: Gveoniz for his drastic differences in playstyle.don't really like this because while I suspect Gveoniz too, looking at stuff based on the two scum flips we have will be much more effective.
And, yay, us!
I'll look at those, and maybe change my vote then as well. This is for now.
So, uh, could we not have only three people talking?
Hey, it takes me a while to think things through. I was also distracted by people. All I have right now is similar to what yuma said about being encouraged by the night. I was discouraged by how D2 ended, but am feeling invigorated by the night's events.So, uh, could we not have only three people talking?
2.7 has been looking at the thread now for a while not saying anything....
so, we have more information!Well, I just finished reviewing both days specifically for input about the NKs, and came back with basically nothing.
N1, eevee was on the team that killed ashersky
N1, robz was on the team that killed voltgloss
N2, eevee was on the team that killed robz
N2, robz was on the team that killed eevee
Eh, don't like an arch lynch.
vote: Robz
and this.....
volt you were right but did nothing to show us why you were right.
3). I was not the only one who thought this. Ashersky was very vocal about how odd Eevee was acting.Eevee's different this game. Changing up a meta? Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads. Hmmmm...
And ashersky died.
Excellent! I guess if we can't catch scum ourselves we can always rely on them to take each other out.Yeah, I am looking forward to the N3 scum kills scum for the town win. (although I prefer lynching scum, it would make for a unique game if town mislynches every single time, but ends up winning. Vets-has this ever actually happened?)
Don't have a lot of time now, I'll post more when I can.
2.71828 seem to be pretty close to robz D2 (possible behavior for a new scum not distancing from his partner, but I guess any kind of behavior is possible). He come to defend robz after robz's "discredit" on the IC, then also say that the IC is discrediting himself.
Voltaire, do robz usually discredit you with reasons that would help his team? or do he just randomly want to discredit you?
If there is a actually scum reason, my hypothesis is that he might have shared that reason with partner 2.7(if he is actually scum), therefore making him a bit more incline to discredit Voltaire.
Robz's big post
Robz, first, you can't sayMy reaction to this is "Well f--- you."
and thenAlright, I feel better having said all that... and I really hope you don't take it personally, Voltaire. I really wouldn't want to like reverse things and end up having you feel unwelcome. I hope that's not the case.
and expect me to believe you. Town or scum, you intended for me to take that big post personally. I mean, you said f--- you! You really can't get more personal unless you use real-life details about me.
But it's ok! Because I think you made that post to further your win-con. Because here's the thing. You, as scum, try to discredit me. Like in M31, where you said I was looking for kindergarten-level scum play. That had, for those listening, identified like 4/5 of Robz's team or something (note I don't think the play was actually kindergarten, it was very good, I mean, his team won and Robz deserves the MVP he got for it. More importantly, he beat me!). So how does scum!Robz discredit an IC here? All he's really got is emotions. Like those above, which really can't be in the same sentence if they're to be believed.
Also, for everyone saying I used inflammatory language, I did! About the lynch! Yes, absolutely, I understand those of you who say "but innately that also means you're talking about the people voting for the lynch," but I know there is a difference. Like I said, town voted to lynch faust. There's only 4 scum. It took more than 4 scum to lynch faust. We know that town players voted for faust.
All of this would be simpler if yuma hadn't hammered faust. Now it's a confusing mess. You have to understand my frustration with yuma, if he is town. If he is scum, then he's made a high-risk, high-reward action that appears to be paying off for him right now.
Like I said, I'll happily hunt for the rest of the scum with everyone else. I'd prefer we lynch yuma, of course, but let's not waste the day!
I also claim no perfect record. I have participated in bad mislynches. I have been manipulated by scum. I have been targeted by ICs. For anyone who doesn't like my play here, either try to improve it and help town win without telling me to fuck myself, or just wait until a future game when you get to be one. :)
2.71828 seem to be pretty close to robz D2 (possible behavior for a new scum not distancing from his partner, but I guess any kind of behavior is possible). He come to defend robz after robz's "discredit" on the IC, then also say that the IC is discrediting himself.As far as the two points go: I responded to Eevee about them here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314245#msg314245), and you can see his response and my additional comment here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314292#msg314292).
Voltaire, do robz usually discredit you with reasons that would help his team? or do he just randomly want to discredit you?
If there is a actually scum reason, my hypothesis is that he might have shared that reason with partner 2.7(if he is actually scum), therefore making him a bit more incline to discredit Voltaire.
2.7 also thinks that 2 points from robz against eevee that is not that convincing for me "convincing enough", which is slightly suspicious.
Therefore I am currently suspecting 2.7 (as robz's partner), but am not very sure.
I don't really want to get into it again. I think the thing that most gets under my skin is having my town play criticized. Often it's the "lazy" accusation; people say I'm not doing anything when I'm doing more than half the players, all the time. But now and then I get upset when people tell me I'm playing badly, which is what Voltaire said here over my faust vote. Which I don't think I was stupid at all.
In M31 there was certainly a strategic component to my outrage, I' not denying that at all. Still, I did really think my case that he was SK was good, and it was just being totally ignored by everyone but Galz, even as Voltaire continued to do all the things I was calling him out on (relentless sheeping, constant OMGUS).
But yeah I really don't want to get into this all again, I'm like moving past it now. If you find that scummy, well, oh well. I just don't want to talk about it.
Post count, from start of game to doctor claim
37 ashersky
31 Voltgloss
24 yuma
17 2.7...
14 Voltaire
13 Robz
9 Eevee
8 liopoil
7 faust
5 sudgy
4 Archetype
2 Gveoniz
1 NHS
(Updated) Opinions about whether or not the doctor should claim, prior to my claim:
Claim D1
ashersky
yuma
Voltaire
sudgy
Gveoniz
Eevee (initially anti-claim)
Robz
2.7 (initially anti-claim)
Claim D2
Archetype
Uncertain
Voltgloss
faust (initially pro-claim)
Anti-claim
liopoil
No opinion expressed
NHS
faust (7): sudgy, ashersky, Voltgloss, Robz888, Archetype, liopoil, yuma
sudgy (1): faust
Archetype (2): Voltaire, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (3): Jimmmmm, Eevee, Gveoniz
Gveoniz (1): Jimmmmm,
Archetype (6): 2.71828....., Eevee, Robz888, sudgy, yuma, liopoil
Robz888 (1): Voltaire
2.71828..... (1): Archetype
Not Voting (1): Gveoniz
To follow up on the doctor
Here are all the people who voted faust: Robz888, liopoil, Archetype, ashersky, sudgy, Yuma, Voltgloss
So if Voltaire is right we have liopoil, sudgy, and yuma as suspects right now.
one last comment and then i'll shut up and let someone else say something...
we are at a really nice place because players that are alive can't be partners...
This should help a lot, because when I play and read I am constantly distracted by wondering if interactions are between two players on the same team and it nags at me and ultimately distracts from scum hunting... so remember any two players can't be partners with each other. one might be scum, but it would be an interaction between a townie an a scummy...
or a scummy and a scummy I guess... but they wouldn't know that!
However, I wouldn't expect my scumpartner to bring attention to the fact that I had been lurking (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311401#msg311401), but I don't know how bold Robz would be in calling out his partner though this does tend to make me think that they are not scum buddies.
Here are some quick facts on those 3So yuma has been the most active and has drawn some serious heat, while I think liopoil has played his cards closest to the chest. The good thing about lio is he gave us some good summary posts here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313623#msg313623), here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314486#msg314486), here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314631#msg314631), and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314658#msg314658) which is a lot more than we can say about sudgy. I really don't see a whole lot of content in sudgy's posts, most of them being about his plan, but the doctor thinks Sudgy to be the least likely of these candidates so that goes in his favor.
liopoil: 57 total posts date. Anti-doctor claim. Put Faust at L-1. Has been pretty under the radar all game.
Sudgy: 63 total posts to date. Pro-doctor claim. D1 Sudgy pressure vote and Sudgy/Faust controversy brought some early heat. Came out against Gveo (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313841#msg313841) for the change in playstyle from game to game.
Yuma: 149 total posts to date. Pro-doctor claim. Hammered Faust. really brought out (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313839#msg313839) the argument against gveo but then later was satisfied with Gveo's response (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314301#msg314301). Helped push through the Archetype lynch
I really don't see a whole lot of content in sudgy's posts, most of them being about his plan, but the doctor thinks Sudgy to be the least likely of these candidates so that goes in his favor.
Sudgy- In favor of the doctor claim D1 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310567#msg310567). The self-proclaimed pressure vote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310678#msg310678) and very fast unvote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310678#msg310678). Then the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310887#msg310887). And then calling the statement controversial (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311045#msg311045) rather than scummy. And everything else. It feels to me like there is about a 50/50 split amond us on whether he comes out scummy or towny from that whole exchange. That was sudgy D1. D2 he immediately comes out and votes yuma (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312465#msg312465) for the quickhammer. Then posts to regret to say that he is very busy and will be more active in a few days, and that is all. Right now, I am currently leaning toward a slightly scummy sudgy, but at the same time there are people (including the doctor) who view him as town. So my read on sudgy is slightly scummy who could very well be town. (I know, what a non-committal read)So very non-committal reads+the voting controversy+the plan controversy=I am not quite ready to rule Sudgy out for a lynch today. I would like to see some stronger reads from him today. It seems he played a very safe D2 after a controversial D1. Lying low to throw off any heat that may have been there? I definitely agree that I do not see him as Robz' partner, but there is a possibility of him being with Eevee that is a little intriguing. I need to reread Eevee's responses to the voting controversy and the plan controversy though. Although since most of that was D1 there might not be much to go off of.
Yeah, I dont get any read on sudgy (people say things like that, usually without any grand plan.. but it's natural to want to explain it that way) and faust (understandable vote, especially if you don't consider sudgy saying what he did something that happens in almost every game by someone).
My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
This feels like answering to a math problem. I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player. Those are the assumptions I'd plug in to the equation, should I do the math or is this sufficient?My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
Are you closer to A, B, C, or D?
People are saying that they find me scummy for me not saying my vote was a mistake. Well guess what people. I'm not saying that because my vote wasn't a mistake! If you're going to think I'm scum for not lying, that is one of the weirdest ways to scumhunt ever.I think people here means Eevee. This is getting very convoluted and confusing, but I think what you are saying is "my explanation for the vote is reasonable, sufficient and the truth, how can it be scummy? should I have lied?". Our disagreement is that I don't think the explanation is reasonable or sufficient (and that if you are town, you would have acknowledged that.. instead you are continuing to insist that the suspicion based on that is unreasonable, which makes me think you as scum chose to stick to your story.
Just re-read Arch. Didn't get much there, other than that he thinks 2.7 is scum, but it seems like a pretty OMGUSy case. He was right in that there was scum among Robz, yuma, 2.7 though. I guess that might be worth keeping in mind, since all three voted to lynch him.
The IC hereby demands more content from liopoil and Jimmmmm. (I know the day has been open for less than 24 hours - I'm calling you two out for lurking previous days as well)
The IC hereby demands more content from liopoil and Jimmmmm. (I know the day has been open for less than 24 hours - I'm calling you two out for lurking previous days as well)Don't think this is entirely fair. I have significantly more content than jimmmmm and gveoniz, especially today and the end of D2. And I will continue to contribute.
Okay caught up. Well, I'm fine with that, a bit early but fine. Thanks for hammering your partner, yuma.
liopoil: posted town reads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313623#msg313623) on both sudgy and yuma (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314486#msg314486).
yuma: scummyish read on sudgy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313629#msg313629), but changes to a more towny note today (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg316122#msg316122). The only post concerning liopoil that I could find from yuma was this one from today (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg316109#msg316109) where he says lio is the most likely lurker to be robz partner.
sudgy: comes out in his reads posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.0;all) and says yuma towny with the hammer bringing him to null, and liopoil slightly scummy because he was lurking. He does put yuma on his D1 "want to lynch (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311632#msg311632)" list and later says yuma's play is strange (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312775#msg312775) but I dont see much else.
Thought I would go ahead and summarize the thoughts on each other of the three people on voltaire's list of scum suspects based on the fact that they were on the faust wagon.
Excellent! I guess if we can't catch scum ourselves we can always rely on them to take each other out.Yeah, I am looking forward to the N3 scum kills scum for the town win. (although I prefer lynching scum, it would make for a unique game if town mislynches every single time, but ends up winning. Vets-has this ever actually happened?)
Don't have a lot of time now, I'll post more when I can.
see, vigs are good! they just need to not know that they are vigs!Excellent! I guess if we can't catch scum ourselves we can always rely on them to take each other out.Yeah, I am looking forward to the N3 scum kills scum for the town win. (although I prefer lynching scum, it would make for a unique game if town mislynches every single time, but ends up winning. Vets-has this ever actually happened?)
Don't have a lot of time now, I'll post more when I can.
I think M5 is the only time it has happened. Two mislynches going into night2 and both my partner and I were still alive until two vigs (who didn't know they ere vigs decided to kill both O and me in the night turning a certain victory for scum into bitter defeat... Worst ending I have ever experienced.
There is not much significance here. I really just put it together for more information about the three of you. I could very well do the same thing for everyone. I just picked on the three of you since Voltaire brought you three up.liopoil: posted town reads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313623#msg313623) on both sudgy and yuma (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314486#msg314486).
yuma: scummyish read on sudgy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313629#msg313629), but changes to a more towny note today (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg316122#msg316122). The only post concerning liopoil that I could find from yuma was this one from today (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg316109#msg316109) where he says lio is the most likely lurker to be robz partner.
sudgy: comes out in his reads posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.0;all) and says yuma towny with the hammer bringing him to null, and liopoil slightly scummy because he was lurking. He does put yuma on his D1 "want to lynch (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311632#msg311632)" list and later says yuma's play is strange (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312775#msg312775) but I dont see much else.
Thought I would go ahead and summarize the thoughts on each other of the three people on voltaire's list of scum suspects based on the fact that they were on the faust wagon.
I don't understand the purpose of this post. the players here can't be partners so why analyze their interactions?
What is the significance here... why did you put this together?
Eevee!
sudgy and e look pretty unlikely (he kept trying to drive the sudgy case, and voted e after multiple people, including myself, found e suspicious. There would be extreme danger of a wagon on e taking off if he was trying to bus his partner without them getting lynched. Eevee did back off e later).
So I agree with yuma's conclusion that sudgy looks pretty darn townie. I thought that anyway, way back on D1 during the whole faust/sudgy debacle.
There is not much significance here. I really just put it together for more information about the three of you. I could very well do the same thing for everyone. I just picked on the three of you since Voltaire brought you three up.liopoil: posted town reads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313623#msg313623) on both sudgy and yuma (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314486#msg314486).
yuma: scummyish read on sudgy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313629#msg313629), but changes to a more towny note today (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg316122#msg316122). The only post concerning liopoil that I could find from yuma was this one from today (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg316109#msg316109) where he says lio is the most likely lurker to be robz partner.
sudgy: comes out in his reads posts (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.0;all) and says yuma towny with the hammer bringing him to null, and liopoil slightly scummy because he was lurking. He does put yuma on his D1 "want to lynch (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311632#msg311632)" list and later says yuma's play is strange (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312775#msg312775) but I dont see much else.
Thought I would go ahead and summarize the thoughts on each other of the three people on voltaire's list of scum suspects based on the fact that they were on the faust wagon.
I don't understand the purpose of this post. the players here can't be partners so why analyze their interactions?
What is the significance here... why did you put this together?
As far as sudgy goes, we do have his "reads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314699#msg314699)" that came up completely null except for Gveo and Arch, who he put as scummy. Both of which were very safe reads at the time. Before that I summarized what I saw here:Sudgy- In favor of the doctor claim D1 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310567#msg310567). The self-proclaimed pressure vote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310678#msg310678) and very fast unvote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310678#msg310678). Then the plan (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310887#msg310887). And then calling the statement controversial (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311045#msg311045) rather than scummy. And everything else. It feels to me like there is about a 50/50 split amond us on whether he comes out scummy or towny from that whole exchange. That was sudgy D1. D2 he immediately comes out and votes yuma (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312465#msg312465) for the quickhammer. Then posts to regret to say that he is very busy and will be more active in a few days, and that is all. Right now, I am currently leaning toward a slightly scummy sudgy, but at the same time there are people (including the doctor) who view him as town. So my read on sudgy is slightly scummy who could very well be town. (I know, what a non-committal read)So very non-committal reads+the voting controversy+the plan controversy=I am not quite ready to rule Sudgy out for a lynch today. I would like to see some stronger reads from him today. It seems he played a very safe D2 after a controversial D1. Lying low to throw off any heat that may have been there? I definitely agree that I do not see him as Robz' partner, but there is a possibility of him being with Eevee that is a little intriguing. I need to reread Eevee's responses to the voting controversy and the plan controversy though. Although since most of that was D1 there might not be much to go off of.
So he comes out on a "slightly more scummy" sudgy, yet when he makes his list of "players I think are mostly likely to flip scum (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313694#msg313694)" sudgy isn't on it. Which could be totally innocent. Except that we know Eevee is scum
Robz: Covered above.
sudgy: His answers to yuma's grilling regarding the faust-vote are very lackluster to me. I see a strong possibility of scum putting down a scummy vote, being called out on it and not being able to explain it. Especially as sudgy's attitude hasn't been "I made a mistake", which is what again I'd think the plausible town narrative would be. He is insisting he had sufficient reasons for the vote, yet is as far as I can see unable to provide them.
So, based purely off of this, I think that E and Yuma are the most likely to be Robz's partner. sudgy is least likely. gveoniz and jimmmm are in the middle, gveoniz slightly less likely than jimmmm.
finally something to analyze...
and i am furious with arch... like spit-raging mad. WTF man?
Well I have not done myself any favors today. Yuma has some good points on my play today that will cause me to be trying to crawl out of the hole I dug for myself.
Okay, trying to gather some thoughts.
We have:
IC/Doc: Voltaire
1 Fire Mafia and 1 Ice Mafia in:
liopoil
sudgy
yuma
2.71828.....
Gveoniz
Jimmmmm
Reading Today I feel like yuma's gone a bit overboard with his anger at Arch. Yes it was lame and unhelpful if Arch was really hanging around keeping quiet until after he was hammered. But 2 days later and no more than a minute or so after learning that scum shot each other during the Night, he's still ranting about Arch:finally something to analyze...
and i am furious with arch... like spit-raging mad. WTF man?
Okay, trying to gather some thoughts.
We have:
IC/Doc: Voltaire
1 Fire Mafia and 1 Ice Mafia in:
liopoil
sudgy
yuma
2.71828.....
Gveoniz
Jimmmmm
Reading Today I feel like yuma's gone a bit overboard with his anger at Arch. Yes it was lame and unhelpful if Arch was really hanging around keeping quiet until after he was hammered. But 2 days later and no more than a minute or so after learning that scum shot each other during the Night, he's still ranting about Arch:finally something to analyze...
and i am furious with arch... like spit-raging mad. WTF man?
That's a nice list of players from the OP.
What conclusion do you draw about yuma from what you've pointed out?
Who do you think is most likely to be Robz/Eevee's partners?
Hmm okay so there's still not that much of Day 3 to go through. At this stage I have a scumread on Gveoniz for his change in style and a slight scumread on yuma for seemingly overreacting. I'll have to get some more re-reads in.
Hmm okay so there's still not that much of Day 3 to go through. At this stage I have a scumread on Gveoniz for his change in style and a slight scumread on yuma for seemingly overreacting. I'll have to get some more re-reads in.
Yes please. Though generic scum reads are good, we have two mafia flips.
Yep I'll keep them in mind and watch out for interactions. Maybe I'll re-read Robz and Eevee at some point too.
Yep I'll keep them in mind and watch out for interactions. Maybe I'll re-read Robz and Eevee at some point too.
Maybe you will?
Jimmmmm, I do not understand you. You appear to be egregiously nonchalant here. Of course you should re-read Robz and Eevee. Everyone needs to re-read Robz and Eevee.
I understand "I don't have time right now" but that's kinda been you all game.
I just re-read you. Do you still like your Gveo case? Whose partner would he be?
And liopoil, a "lurker" has 71 posts.
And liopoil, a "lurker" has 71 posts.
Full post count, btw:
155 yuma
126 Voltaire
119 2.7...
63 liopoil
63 sudgy
48 Jimmmmm/NHS
25 Gveoniz
And liopoil, a "lurker" has 71 posts.
Full post count, btw:
155 yuma
126 Voltaire
119 2.7...
63 liopoil
63 sudgy
48 Jimmmmm/NHS
25 Gveoniz
I guess 8 of liopoil's were pre-game. Do I actually have 46-7 posts?
And liopoil, a "lurker" has 71 posts.
Full post count, btw:
155 yuma
126 Voltaire
119 2.7...
63 liopoil
63 sudgy
48 Jimmmmm/NHS
25 Gveoniz
I guess 8 of liopoil's were pre-game. Do I actually have 46-7 posts?
Yes. With a lot of them having no real relation to this game.
Fair enough. I would have thought Gveo was much higher.
I'm not keen on liopoil's backflip (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311960#msg311960) to put faust on L-1.
(fixed)
That was a little bit of a knee-jerk reaction to yuma's posting. There are a few things that can be construed as scummy:Well I have not done myself any favors today. Yuma has some good points on my play today that will cause me to be trying to crawl out of the hole I dug for myself.
What kind of hole do you think you have dug for yourself?
2) The case I laid out against sudgy was pretty weak, and included errors. Just trying to keep sudgy on the table because I want to avoid being lynched?
Well I have not done myself any favors today. Yuma has some good points on my play today that will cause me to be trying to crawl out of the hole I dug for myself. First of all, Eevee's "players I think are mostly likely to flip scum (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg313694#msg313694)" does have sudgy on it, as yuma pointed out, and I just totally missed it. Hopefully yuma, you at least can understand misreading a post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312697#msg312697).I don't like how he "does himself no favor" as if he is on his own now. But I would not count on it for anything.
Apparently I missed those when I was making my last post. It seems more reasonable now, but not entirely convincing.2.71828 seem to be pretty close to robz D2 (possible behavior for a new scum not distancing from his partner, but I guess any kind of behavior is possible). He come to defend robz after robz's "discredit" on the IC, then also say that the IC is discrediting himself.As far as the two points go: I responded to Eevee about them here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314245#msg314245), and you can see his response and my additional comment here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg314292#msg314292).
Voltaire, do robz usually discredit you with reasons that would help his team? or do he just randomly want to discredit you?
If there is a actually scum reason, my hypothesis is that he might have shared that reason with partner 2.7(if he is actually scum), therefore making him a bit more incline to discredit Voltaire.
2.7 also thinks that 2 points from robz against eevee that is not that convincing for me "convincing enough", which is slightly suspicious.
Therefore I am currently suspecting 2.7 (as robz's partner), but am not very sure.
As far as Robz buddying: If you want to see it as that, go ahead I can't stop you. That is not what it was. As far as the IC thing I was disappointed by what I saw as a rage-vote and really just wanted Voltaire to move past that so we could get work done on D2. (see here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312801#msg312801) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312866#msg312866)) My response to Eevee covers other D2 buddying accusations that we were working together against Eevee.
I'm not keen on liopoil's backflip (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg311960#msg311960) to put faust on L-1.
(fixed)
But he'd expressed doubts about faust before, and I don't think ever commented on the scumslip. Unless I'm missing the post.
Voltaire - doc. Do not lynch, do not kill.Here's the thing everyone is getting all excited about it seems. Most likely yet another "scumslip" I think. And by that I mean not-a-scumslip. I see Yuma pointed out it could be just a grammatical mistake from english not being his first language. That's possible, but I think it could also just be emphasizing that voltaire is one of the good guys, so we should not kill him and stuff. lynching is killing, after all. So null, <i>maybe</i> scummy.
So, I am getting a little convinced that faust's do not kill thing could be a scumtell. It clearly was not a language mistake, because if it was faust would have said as such. Instead, his excuse is that he was actually talking to scum. This seems less plausible to me. But still, I am less confident because it doesn't seem like something scum is likely to accidentally say and in prior experiences scumhunting on scumslips has not gone well.
...
Vote: faust. I'm sure enough that he is my preferred lynch now. And I don't have see why putting him at L-1 is a bad thing. However, reminder, This is L-1. Do not hammer without stating intent prior and giving everyone a chance to weigh in if possible.
I don't like how he "does himself no favor" as if he is on his own now. But I would not count on it for anything.
Eevee: has significantly more posts and content on D2 than he did D1. I think this is either: scum who realized after D1 that he needs to up his contributions (which weren't all that low anyway), or town who suddenly has lots more to talk about! Or maybe null because he just happened to have more time to post now than he did before. But between the town/scum scenarios, I think the town is more likely.I don't like either of these posts... why??e has rocketed up the scum ladder today.rereading day 2/catching up and wow, this, first and foremost this.This post responding to Robz's case is very convincing.
I can't find where he explains his scumread on E. I'm sure it's there somewhere...
Well, even from all that content, I'm still pretty null on him. Maybe slight town, and I don't want to lynch him today because a) I don't have a real reason to suspect him and b) he's contributing.
I have time for that too:
town to scum (might change a bit when I actually write stuff up):
liopoil/voltaire
sudgy
e
yuma
gveoniz
jimmmm
robz
eevee
archetype
So, summary:
Want to Lynch: gveoniz, archetype
Willing to Lynch: Robz888, Jimmmmm
Don't want to lynch: Yuma, sudgy, eevee, E
Won't lynch: Liopoil, Voltaire
I'll Vote: Gveoniz to see if there's support for that because I slightly prefer it over archetype, but if there isn't I will voice intent to vote for archetype
| Player Voltaire Yuma Jimmmmm 2.71828..... liopoil sudgy Gveoniz | D3 Post Count 25 19 17 15 6 5 3 | D2 Post Count 53 85 30 58 33 33 12 | D1 Post Count 55 51 8 47 24 25 11 | Total 133 155 55 120 63 63 26 |
Because there is, as I mentioned, not much major useful thing that I can think of today I can only raise that very minor point. And I do want to see others's view on that.I don't like how he "does himself no favor" as if he is on his own now. But I would not count on it for anything.
If you wouldn't count on it for anything, why mention it?
As far as Robz buddying: If you want to see it as that, go ahead I can't stop you. That is not what it was. As far as the IC thing I was disappointed by what I saw as a rage-vote and really just wanted Voltaire to move past that so we could get work done on D2. (see here and here) My response to Eevee covers other D2 buddying accusations that we were working together against Eevee.And another minor point is that he said that he cannot stop me from thinking that he is buddying. While in the other hand made defenses which would stop me from thinking that. That is slightly strange (using the fact that town careless about death as additional defense?), but it don't really tell me anything.
All in all I'm pretty null about liopoil. For me the most noteworthy observation is that his reads seemed to change a bit, which could be an open-minded Townie or scum going with the flow and following popular opinion. I think it could do with more thought about whether they were reasonable changes, and I will do so when I can.His reads were very similar if you ask me. The only change is he basically switched Eevee and Gveo's spots in his reads the second time. Over 3 days, that is not a whole lot of change and I don't read anything into that. Maybe a little bit of following popular opinion, but everyone develops reads over time.
1) A case that puts Sudgy as Robz' partner seems weak2) The case I laid out against sudgy was pretty weak, and included errors. Just trying to keep sudgy on the table because I want to avoid being lynched?
Do you now think your sudgy case is weak, or that other people are seeing it as weak? Same question about it including errors.
Vote: Sudgy
Holy cow. Anybody reread him in NMIV, and you'll agree. Vote: Gveoniz.
I will do a sudgy thing. Maybe it will get a response.Someone else join me. Then we will be at L-2 and actually have some pressure
Pressure Vote: Sudgy
I don't understand how this game keeps creeping along!creep being the key word. Sudgy has the least content today, so that is primarily why my vote is on him. I also wouldn't feel terrible about his lynch because of the reasons I have outlined. I agree with Voltaire in that I don't have a super clear read on anybody, but I am comfortable with a vote on any of the 3 players who were on the faust wagon still alive
I will do a sudgy thing. Maybe it will get a response.Someone else join me. Then we will be at L-2 and actually have some pressure
Pressure Vote: Sudgy
We could even put yuma or liopoil at L-2 at the same time.I don't understand how this game keeps creeping along!creep being the key word. Sudgy has the least content today of the three on the faust wagon, so that is primarily why my vote is on him. I also wouldn't feel terrible about his lynch because of the reasons I have outlined. I agree with Voltaire in that I don't have a super clear read on anybody, but I am comfortable with a vote on any of the 3 players who were on the faust wagon still alive
I think I've said a few times that gveo hasn't been getting enough attention as a lurker...Fair enough. I would have thought Gveo was much higher.
Me too. His posts do tend to cover a lot of stuff, though.
Actually his reads had changed. He said this:my initial read on eevee was not very well thought through, though it was more correct. The scumread there was just off the top of my head, when I really looked at him, I had a more null/town read on him IIRC.
And three days later said this:
E has been posting weirdly today.
Why doesn't he know what to make of it? this is something that's pretty clearly scummy in this setup. player A suspects player B, player B turns up dead, player A is suspicious. But eevee doesn't know what to make of this. Now, this is especially interesting because eevee's team didn't kill voltgloss, robz888's team did. So, if yuma is eevee's partner, eevee KNOWS that yuma suspecting voltgloss isn't scummy, because he didn't kill him! but if he isn't eevee partner, eevee should suspect yuma for this.I went back to look now, and seems the thing I was recalling was nothing Voltgloss said himself - it was the fact yuma suspected him day 1, which isn't something I'd expect to happen. No idea what to make of that though.I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.
What were they?
--snip--so slight scumreads on sudgy/E. But the bolded is the interesting bit. He never explains his reasoning for the sudden townread on yuma!
Basically, my reads at this point are:
--snip--
yuma: Should probably explain this in it's own post, especially as I'm blanking on verbalizing the reasons for the 180° right now.
Gweoniz, Jimmmm, liopoil: I'm pretty much totally null for the lack of information
--snip--
sudgy: His answers to yuma's grilling regarding the faust-vote are very lackluster to me. I see a strong possibility of scum putting down a scummy vote, being called out on it and not being able to explain it. Especially as sudgy's attitude hasn't been "I made a mistake", which is what again I'd think the plausible town narrative would be. He is insisting he had sufficient reasons for the vote, yet is as far as I can see unable to provide them.
E: Well, the timeline, as I see it, for E's day 2 is he does a couple of very scummy things (his arbitrary excluding and including people of different lists and deciding where the scum lies based on his assumptions reeked of scum just wanting to manipulate town towards his desired direction, and I covered how scummy I deemed his sheeping of Robz's case when I answered to that), gets called out on them (by the IC, of all people) and when the general atmosphere clearly starts to turn towards him being thought of as a lynch candidate, he rushes off to do quite extensive rereads, changes his tone of posting completely (I want to say from scummy to more calculated and cautious but that's just my perspective). Now, I do not want to give the impression I don't appreciate the work he put into the rereads and the game in general - I know it tremendously helped me to catch up quickly and more effortlessly. However, I disagree with giving him town cred for that - in fact it builds more towards the narrative of scum aggressively pursuing a mislynch (=lynch of someone not in his team), until he realizes he stepped over the line and then bolting back to his trench to wait out the attack (wait out not by lurking but by posting non-controversial stuff, and so much of it that the earlier stuff would be forgotten or forgiven.. some people react to cases on them by staying silent and hoping the case disappears, to me it seems like e reacted by abandoning his earlier goal of aggressively pushing us towards a lynch and just taking a defensive (albeit a very active) stance). This metaphor is much clearer in my heads, but think of it as a WW2 battle, first he runs from the trenches his guns blazing at his enemies like Rambo, then he gets called out on trying to shoot them and they shoot back, so he retreats to the bunker to wait out until we forget about him.
hmmmm... I think this points to Jimmmmm not being eevee's partner, but I'm not sure.48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
Or you are scum and just bold.
The pressure vote on sudgy, comment on getting people to L-2. I think someone else noticed something else too. I'm not really sure.E has been posting weirdly today.
What, specifically, has been weird?
Hopefully yuma, you at least can understand misreading a post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg312697#msg312697).
Why doesn't he know what to make of it? this is something that's pretty clearly scummy in this setup. player A suspects player B, player B turns up dead, player A is suspicious. But eevee doesn't know what to make of this. Now, this is especially interesting because eevee's team didn't kill voltgloss, robz888's team did. So, if yuma is eevee's partner, eevee KNOWS that yuma suspecting voltgloss isn't scummy, because he didn't kill him! but if he isn't eevee partner, eevee should suspect yuma for this.I went back to look now, and seems the thing I was recalling was nothing Voltgloss said himself - it was the fact yuma suspected him day 1, which isn't something I'd expect to happen. No idea what to make of that though.I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.
What were they?
- has scumread on yuma for hammer, talks w/yuma a fair bit about why, explaining himself, etc. But he never votes for yuma!
<snip>hmmmm... I think this points to Jimmmmm not being eevee's partner, but I'm not sure.48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
Or you are scum and just bold.
So, based purely on this, in terms of how likely they are to be eevee's partner:
Yuma>>>Gveoniz>>>sudgy>E>Jimmmmm.
I will do a sudgy thing. Maybe it will get a response.Someone else join me. Then we will be at L-2 and actually have some pressure
Pressure Vote: Sudgy
We could even put yuma or liopoil at L-2 at the same time.I don't understand how this game keeps creeping along!creep being the key word. Sudgy has the least content today, so that is primarily why my vote is on him. I also wouldn't feel terrible about his lynch because of the reasons I have outlined. I agree with Voltaire in that I don't have a super clear read on anybody, but I am comfortable with a vote on any of the 3 players who were on the faust wagon still alive
Voltaire... do you see any similarity between Jimmmm today and mail-mi at the beginning of day3 in Game of Thrones?
Voltaire... do you see any similarity between Jimmmm today and mail-mi at the beginning of day3 in Game of Thrones?
No, but I see a similarity with scum!Jimmmmm from HP. I'll look into what you just said, though.
He doesn't express a scumread on Jimmmmm there! he says that it actually is something he is LESS likely to say as scum.
So then why do you disagree with it? just because you "know" that you aren't eevee's partner?
E.i., is there a reason that you would disagree with said points if they were made on a different player?
vote: liopoilhave you ever really explained why you suspect me? or is it really pure POE?
His increased activity makes me wonder if he is scum realizing he needs to step up his game if he wants to survive.or, you know, maybe I have more time + am more interested in the game.
vote: liopoilhave you ever really explained why you suspect me? or is it really pure POE?
Well I just reread Jimmmm. I am interested to hear what voltaire has to say about Jimmm being similar to HP. I can't remember that game very well.
I do think jimmm coming out pressing me today for emotions was scummy, but looking over day1 and day2 there just isn't a lot.... like just really hard to analyze stuff. Day1 there is nothing and day2 the main thing that I got was that Jimmmm was basically willing to sell his vote to the highest bidder. Just so little effort (mostly based off VLA stuff I guess) that reminded me a lot! of Jimmmm in Bankers. (note for those that didn't play that Jimmmm was a pretty heavy lurker in that game for the early days at least and really didn't do much of anything except defend himself (because of VLA issues and heavy suspicion by town)... he turned out to be town and had to fight off basically all of town wanting to mislynch him and was a huge distraction.... that is the wagon on Jimmmm was a distraction... not that Jimmmm himself was) So I don't know about here.
I feel like Jimmmm gave more of an effort in HP... or at least really wanted to give more of an effort. Here, he just isn't.
I kinda feel like I am getting to the point of PoE liopoil.
I am out. Sudgy and 2.7 I think are out. Voltaire is out. Jimmm I don't feel too confident about. So between gveo and liopoil I think i would go with liopoil.
His increased activity makes me wonder if he is scum realizing he needs to step up his game if he wants to survive.
vote: liopoil
We lynch town:
- This is most likely (4/6 chance)
- Two town die
- D4 it's 2 scum, 1 VT, 1 IC Doc.
- If we lynch the VT, we insta-lose.
(I assume that we would learn that they were double targeted at night. unlikely situation though).
The game specifics aren't too important about how they got there, but they ended up with only one mafia who was able to successfully hide the rest of the game. We are doing better right now since our doctor is still alive, but I think it is much easier for one mafia to hide than for two of them to hide.And just went through another game where they were very vocal about doc not claiming and one of the mafia one. Not saying that it was caused by that, but it appears that no claiming seems to be the norm that they arrived at in the two games I looked at, but it appeared to be based off the status quo that claiming was bad as they didn't really delve into whether it was good or bad the way we have.
PS: I looked at the two most recent games.
I just looked through the game you mention here (Open 476). Town lynched Ice mafia on Day 1; the Doctor stopped a kill Night 1; the Doctor claimed Day 2; town lynched the other Ice mafia Day 2; the Doctor, of course, died Night 2; town lynched Fire Mafia Day 3... and then kept on mislynching until the last Fire Mafia won.
I do note that one of the most vocal opponents to the idea of the Doctor claiming was one of the Ice mafia goons. And then after the Doctor claimed on Day 2, that opponent was lynched (and flipped scum) that same day.
The game specifics aren't too important about how they got there, but they ended up with only one mafia who was able to successfully hide the rest of the game. We are doing better right now since our doctor is still alive, but I think it is much easier for one mafia to hide than for two of them to hide.
If we no lynch or lynch town, scum have to decide if they want to continue targeting the other scum team or go after the doctor and risk their own death.
If I missed a case, tell me.
The thing that sticks out to me is that no matter what, if we no lynch today we are still able to have a mislynch D4 and win.
ok I see that now. And your point about the 4 player situation.If I missed a case, tell me.
The thing that sticks out to me is that no matter what, if we no lynch today we are still able to have a mislynch D4 and win.
e, if we lynch scum today that would be explicitly better than no-lynch, because we know what will happen tonight - 5 players, 1 scum, 2 shots for town to win. In your no-lynch scenarios, only some situations also result in 2 shots for town.
Players who have posted today:
Voltaire
e
Please tell me someone else sees the problem.
Players who have posted today:
Voltaire
e
Please tell me someone else sees the problem.
Me and yuma have posted some (granted, mine not being great).
Players who have posted today:
Voltaire
e
Please tell me someone else sees the problem.
Me and yuma have posted some (granted, mine not being great).
Not today, you two haven't. Real-life today. We have a lot to work out still. It's not good.
Since you're clearly following the thread, care to post that big re-read you said you're working on?
Here Jimmmm is tyring to pain me as scummy for my "Arch is lame" posts... which I still stand by and am still mad about.
It seems like your only reason for thinking yuma is town is that he hammered faust, and that you are scared of mislynching him. Except you never have mislynched him. Seems really a bad idea to decide for sure that you won't be voting for yuma today. Have you read my rereads of eevee/robz? This far outweighs anything about his hammer. And I have more things too that I am working on.Well I just reread Jimmmm. I am interested to hear what voltaire has to say about Jimmm being similar to HP. I can't remember that game very well.
I do think jimmm coming out pressing me today for emotions was scummy, but looking over day1 and day2 there just isn't a lot.... like just really hard to analyze stuff. Day1 there is nothing and day2 the main thing that I got was that Jimmmm was basically willing to sell his vote to the highest bidder. Just so little effort (mostly based off VLA stuff I guess) that reminded me a lot! of Jimmmm in Bankers. (note for those that didn't play that Jimmmm was a pretty heavy lurker in that game for the early days at least and really didn't do much of anything except defend himself (because of VLA issues and heavy suspicion by town)... he turned out to be town and had to fight off basically all of town wanting to mislynch him and was a huge distraction.... that is the wagon on Jimmmm was a distraction... not that Jimmmm himself was) So I don't know about here.
I feel like Jimmmm gave more of an effort in HP... or at least really wanted to give more of an effort. Here, he just isn't.
I kinda feel like I am getting to the point of PoE liopoil.
I am out. Sudgy and 2.7 I think are out. Voltaire is out. Jimmm I don't feel too confident about. So between gveo and liopoil I think i would go with liopoil.
His increased activity makes me wonder if he is scum realizing he needs to step up his game if he wants to survive.
vote: liopoil
The rest of town, please listen very carefully and remember this tomorrow:
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said here by yuma (with the exception of the stuff about Jimmmmm, I'll cover that elsewhere). However, I have noticed that yuma seems to be mirroring me in a subtle way. He is making arguments he knows I'll be pre-disposed to like (such as claiming that scum can't afford to let people become consensus town reads). There is a problem with that in this game though - town can probably afford at least one since each scum needs to kill the other one first. He is also agreeing with pretty much all of my reads, and not calling me out for much of anything really.
So what does this mean?
It means that, for multiple reasons, I think that yuma is town. For one, I see absolutely no reason why scum!yuma would hammer faust (yuma has stated that he likes to play conservative as scum). WIFOM always possible, of course. But I am always over-wary of yuma (we just lost a game for town by being convinced the other was scum - Game of Thrones mafia if you want to read it), and so I can convince myself of the above being true.
What this means is that I am not going to advocate lynching yuma today, nor will I vote him. I have just shot town, and myself, in the foot too many times seeing scum!yuma lurking in the shadows when he's not really there. However, I want the rest of the town to be aware that this might be happening and look at yuma closely tomorrow should I die tonight.
I'll go into the odds of that happening in a bit. I am not caught up on the thread, btw.
Mods, what happens if everyone is dead at the end of the game?this is impossible. See the second post of the thread and one of my posts somewhere near the start of D3.
I think I see at least one situation where this could happen.
Except you never have mislynched him.
I haven't read GoT much, but I highly doubt that you can blame the loss on you two suspecting each either if neither of you were lynched. (IIRC from what little I did read, neither of you were lynched).Except you never have mislynched him.
Did you read the part of my post about the end of Game of Thrones mafia?
I haven't read GoT much, but I highly doubt that you can blame the loss on you two suspecting each either if neither of you were lynched. (IIRC from what little I did read, neither of you were lynched).Except you never have mislynched him.
Did you read the part of my post about the end of Game of Thrones mafia?
And now I see you voted for him as well. So okay, your suspicion of each other was detrimental to town, however, it was far from losing the game by itself, and it was just one game, and not something that you should base your play on going forward.
but you ended up voting for me...And now I see you voted for him as well. So okay, your suspicion of each other was detrimental to town, however, it was far from losing the game by itself, and it was just one game, and not something that you should base your play on going forward.
I heavily suspected yuma in B2B when he was the doctor and you were the last scum we were trying to find. This is a long-term trend.
but you ended up voting for me...
And the point remains that you shouldn't be afraid of history repeating itself. Being wrong in the past about a player doesn't make you more likely to be wrong about them again. If you would be suspecting them for the same reasons as before, that would be one thing. is this the case?
And yes, it is basically the same reasons - yuma being too clever by half! Aaaaaaa, don't get fooled by yuma! Aaaaaaa! If my POE is right one of you two is scum, and likely Robz's partner, so he does have a 50% chance.Well, it's fine to not suspect yuma because he's being clever and you're scared of being fooled. yes, you should try not to get fooled, but also not suspect him because you see something that looks like he's trying to fool you. You should suspect him for my reasons for suspecting him. And certainly not just blatantly say that you aren't going to vote for him today because of prior bad experiences.
Interested in your thoughts on no lynch. Same as yuma's. Same as everyone's. Thanks for showing up and posting.
Well, it's fine to not suspect yuma because he's being clever and you're scared of being fooled. yes, you should try not to get fooled, but also not suspect him because you see something that looks like he's trying to fool you. You should suspect him for my reasons for suspecting him. And certainly not just blatantly say that you aren't going to vote for him today because of prior bad experiences.
mail-mi, will flavor tell us who a person is if they do get double targeted and thus escape free?No.
I don't know how this situation has worked in the past/how it is supposed to work.
No.(I assume that we would learn that they were double targeted at night. unlikely situation though).
Almost certainly not. We'll just be told there wasn't a kill. Right mods? If scum target the same player at night, will flavor indicate that the next day?
Mods, what happens if everyone is dead at the end of the game?Pretty sure this is impossible.
I think I see at least one situation where this could happen.
I'm looking at the scenarios for lynch vs no-lynch.Scum forgets about the keys, Andy forgets about you and throws the chest away. Everyone loses.
mail-mi, if Town refuses to lynch and scum refuses to kill, what happens?
2.7 makes an interesting point about no-lynching. Let's work through all possible outcomes for today, assuming that our odds of each happening are pure random:
Players who have posted today:
Voltaire
e
Please tell me someone else sees the problem.
Here Jimmmm is tyring to pain me as scummy for my "Arch is lame" posts... which I still stand by and am still mad about.
I'm not trying to paint anything. Despite having just found out that two scum killed each other, something that for a Townie is utterly excellent news because it puts us back in the game, you're still more concerned about something a dead player did 48 hours prior. You don't see how that comes across as strange?
but you ended up voting for me...And now I see you voted for him as well. So okay, your suspicion of each other was detrimental to town, however, it was far from losing the game by itself, and it was just one game, and not something that you should base your play on going forward.
I heavily suspected yuma in B2B when he was the doctor and you were the last scum we were trying to find. This is a long-term trend.
And the point remains that you shouldn't be afraid of history repeating itself. Being wrong in the past about a player doesn't make you more likely to be wrong about them again. If you would be suspecting them for the same reasons as before, that would be one thing. is this the case?
I'm starting to think that our biggest scumhunting weapons are scum.
I'm starting to think that our biggest scumhunting weapons are scum.
If we no-lynch I am almost certain Fire mafia kills me and Ice mafia tries to kill Fire mafia.
I think this is fine.
I'm starting to think that our biggest scumhunting weapons are scum.
meaning....?
I'm starting to think that our biggest scumhunting weapons are scum.
meaning....?
What do you think it means? That if we let scum try to kill each other we have a better chance of it happening than if we try to kill them.
Well if it is fine, then it is fine. I haven't quite gotten to why it is fine... (if you have already figured out why, could you post it or reference it?)
Basically what I am saying is that we should only no lynch if we are certain that it will end in our advantage and can't be manipulated by scum into something that turns into their advantage based off our excepting them to do a certain thing... because if we expect it they will do something else
Basically what I am saying is that we should only no lynch if we are certain that it will end in our advantage and can't be manipulated by scum into something that turns into their advantage based off our excepting them to do a certain thing... because if we expect it they will do something else
Well if it is fine, then it is fine. I haven't quite gotten to why it is fine... (if you have already figured out why, could you post it or reference it?)
Basically what I am saying is that we should only no lynch if we are certain that it will end in our advantage and can't be manipulated by scum into something that turns into their advantage based off our excepting them to do a certain thing... because if we expect it they will do something else
The worst thing for us is that they try to kill two town. But they have to kill different town. And down the line, I am almost certain this results in a Fire mafia win when they're the only two alive. So Ice mafia will try to kill Fire mafia tonight.
Fire mafia needs to kill the ice mafia to win, but they win a tie, so they can afford to kill me tonight. If they shoot for the Ice mafia, that's great for us anyway. Even if they kill me, Ice mafia may successfully kill Fire and town simply has to win a 1 scum 4 town setup.
Do you see what I am saying?
I mean, I am fine taking a shot at scum today but we could REALLY screw ourselves over. Look at it from mafia's point of view. I think they can't afford to "screw us over" because they're not created equally - Fire mafia has the upper hand right now.
I'm starting to think that our biggest scumhunting weapons are scum.
meaning....?
What do you think it means? That if we let scum try to kill each other we have a better chance of it happening than if we try to kill them.
then why didn't you say that in the first place. Sorry I asked you to explain a post I didn't understand... sheesh...
Let's say that scum is perfect. If we no lynch, either they kill each other (great), one kills the other and the other kills Volt (great), or they both try to kill Volt and nothing happens (great). Now, scum isn't perfect, but all of these options look good to me.
Let's say that scum is perfect. If we no lynch, either they kill each other (great), one kills the other and the other kills Volt (great), or they both try to kill Volt and nothing happens (great). Now, scum isn't perfect, but all of these options look good to me.
and I am worried about the situation where scum kills volt and then misses on the other mafia and kills town...
Let's say that scum is perfect. If we no lynch, either they kill each other (great), one kills the other and the other kills Volt (great), or they both try to kill Volt and nothing happens (great). Now, scum isn't perfect, but all of these options look good to me.
and I am worried about the situation where scum kills volt and then misses on the other mafia and kills town...
And I am worried about the situation where we mislynch and scum kills volt and then misses on the other mafia and kills town...
Best-case scenario if we lynch: We lynch scum, scum kills Volt. 1 scum vs. 4 town.Best-case scenario if we no-lynch: both scum kill each other. We win.
Worst-case scenario if we lynch: we lynch town, scum kills Volt and town. 2 scum vs. 2 town.
Worst-case scenario if we no-lynch: scum kills Volt and town. 2 scum vs. 3 town.
I'm liking the odds of no lynching a lot more than lynching.
but when exactly does this happen? If scum no kill then town no lynches, does everyone lose then or is scum forced to kill? what if the kill is just blocked in some way?I'm looking at the scenarios for lynch vs no-lynch.Scum forgets about the keys, Andy forgets about you and throws the chest away. Everyone loses.
mail-mi, if Town refuses to lynch and scum refuses to kill, what happens?
So I think that no-lynch is the best option.... if not my favorite
However! I don't think we should vote to no-lynch. I think we should use the full day to scum hunt and try and figure out who the fire mafia is so ice mafia can better shoot them during the night and let the day timeout into a no-lynch. Quickly no-lynching I think wastes this time that we have been given... especially time with our IC.
So I am going to unvote, but not move to a no-lynch vote...
Ooh, I like the idea of timing out to give us the most time. Unvote.
That's what happens over a course of days. If town no-lynch twice and scum no kill twice, everyone loses.but when exactly does this happen? If scum no kill then town no lynches, does everyone lose then or is scum forced to kill? what if the kill is just blocked in some way?I'm looking at the scenarios for lynch vs no-lynch.Scum forgets about the keys, Andy forgets about you and throws the chest away. Everyone loses.
mail-mi, if Town refuses to lynch and scum refuses to kill, what happens?
Ok. I am repeating what Voltaire said in a different format
The no lynch option seems interesting.Ok. I am repeating what Voltaire said in a different format
I spent some time to make graph showing options and out comes:
D3: green
N3: red
D4: purple
(https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1QlJzLG6TE4l56CmlOEtXN7X7zB_sWFG6lSCwBZ1K8xs/pub?w=900&h=500)
It is still very messy (I only tried to make that the text don't overlap) and need a lot more improvements, I will also have to do some maths. I will come back soon to fix the graph and post my own analysis.
(note that the relative position of the thing does not matter, only the arrows do.)
I've been working on a less graphical version with percentages. Much messier than I anticipated.As have I. It's incredibly messy, especially because of the nightkills w/two scum alive. It's a mini-game, and it's a fair bit of work to find the optimal strategy for each scum, and I have to do that for each nightstate possible w/two scum alive... I likely won't finish. Just with 2 scum and 1 VT, the analysis is pretty in depth.
I've been working on a less graphical version with percentages. Much messier than I anticipated.As have I. It's incredibly messy, especially because of the nightkills w/two scum alive. It's a mini-game, and it's a fair bit of work to find the optimal strategy for each scum, and I have to do that for each nightstate possible w/two scum alive... I likely won't finish. Just with 2 scum and 1 VT, the analysis is pretty in depth.
but for now, I'm just mystical and give reads without explanations
town: yuma (!), Voltaire (duh)
scum: robz, e, sudgy, archetype
wouldn't have remembered they are playing had e not just referenced them (nice job with the summary posts btw, your effort is appreciated): liopoil (!), jimm, whoever else isn't mentioned except for gweoniz who I need to reread, jury is still out.
Gweoniz, Jimmmm, liopoil: I'm pretty much totally null for the lack of information (either because they haven't posted enough, because nothing in their posts has stood out to me enough or simply because I can't remember their posts). I think having a null category this size at this point in the game is ok. I could develop meaningful and informed reads on them by putting in more work, and that will become necessary later days, but given I have a healthy pool of scum reads already (so I expect these guys to mostly fill the town read category), I don't feel the effort it would take is necessary (=advances the accuracy of my reads enough compared to the unpleasant effort it would take). Basically, without being on the reread all the time, my brain can hold a meaningul, informed read on only so many players at the time.
I am out now. Will be following the game but won't be able to post long thoughts until Monday, only one liners at best. I am happy if we decide to no lynch before then, but FOS to anyone in my list here who hasn't completed my "assigned homework" (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg317181#msg317181) before a lynch/no lynch.
Assumptions:Very nice. I was trying to work out something that finds the best strategies for scum as well, which is much harder. I'm very unsure that it is best for the two scum to act like you think they will... and it may be good for voltaire to save people. Cases with 2 scum and 1 town are not a loss for town at all. The Ice mafia will agree to a no lynch for sure, because the Ice mafia loses if they lynch anyone but the fire mafia, and since neither the fire mafia nor the town is going to be willing to lynch the fire mafia... ice mafia will go for no lynch. Fire mafia has to go for no lynch too because they need to pretend to be town, since no lynch is happening anyway. If we reach such a scenario, I suspect that the day will be over after 2 posts! then, that night, it's really complicated. After quite a bit of work I am still not sure what happens. Most likely the best option is for scum to choose randomly, a la rock-paper-scissors, but not purely random. But town has a non-zero chance that night for sure. How would the scum ever know who each other are? You use "KVT" a few times, what does that mean? known VT? I don't think we can ever create a Known VT. It seems you think after a night w/out kills one is created? I'm pretty sure this is not the case.
Fire Mafia will Kill Volt and then Ice hunt.
Ice Mafia will Fire hunt.
Volt will not use his Doctor power to protect anyone.
--snip--
*I am considering cases with 2 scum and 1 Town a loss for Town. Perhaps the Townie could convince one of the scum to no-lynch, but I wouldn't bet on it.
**If we assume that both scum are scumhunting, then in situations where it is Night and they both know exactly who the other is, then in theory that results in a win for Town. Obviously one may decide to kingmake and give the other the win, but if they play optimally they kill each other and hope the other decided to kingmake.
You use "KVT" a few times, what does that mean? known VT? I don't think we can ever create a Known VT. It seems you think after a night w/out kills one is created? I'm pretty sure this is not the case.
ahhh, neat. However, this is not quite the case, because there is a possibility of voltaire saving someone/scum killing themselves.You use "KVT" a few times, what does that mean? known VT? I don't think we can ever create a Known VT. It seems you think after a night w/out kills one is created? I'm pretty sure this is not the case.
Oh sorry! Forgot to explain that one. It means "Known (to scum) VT". Basically it's someone who has survived a NK because both scum targeted them and therefore know they're Town and therefore will not be targeted again since we're assuming both scum are scumhunting.
But if you have enough time to make charts and figure out percentages, you have enough time to scumhunt I think... and ultimately I think your scumhunting is going to be more worthwhile than your charts and graphs--though I appreciate the effort that went into making them--to town in helping us find scum or helping us find out if you are scum.
Yeah I know... I was just going to start it to see if it was plausible and then kept going... I'm more just enjoying it than actually doing it for whatever negligible benefit it may give us. But yeah, I'll stop now.But if you have enough time to make charts and figure out percentages, you have enough time to scumhunt I think... and ultimately I think your scumhunting is going to be more worthwhile than your charts and graphs--though I appreciate the effort that went into making them--to town in helping us find scum or helping us find out if you are scum.
Yeah I know... I was just going to start it to see if it was plausible and then kept going... I'm more just enjoying it than actually doing it for whatever negligible benefit it may give us. But yeah, I'll stop now.But if you have enough time to make charts and figure out percentages, you have enough time to scumhunt I think... and ultimately I think your scumhunting is going to be more worthwhile than your charts and graphs--though I appreciate the effort that went into making them--to town in helping us find scum or helping us find out if you are scum.
I don't want to lynch myself, Voltaire, yuma, or 2.7, basically.
Eevee and sudgy are really the only two players I've looked at very in depth. And I don't come away with much more than, well they could be scum.
Scum have to be lurking, right? Maybe a lurker lynch? Liopoil? Archetype? Gveoniz?
Of our lurkers... NHS isn't actually a lurker, just someone who probably needs to be replaced.
Archetype is very often mislynched, and pretty lurky is town.
Sudgy is lurking and fits some scum criteria for me, so cool.
As for liopoil, I have no idea what liopoil's meta is, except I think I've seen him lurk as town but try to have good content, sort of like theorel but less extreme. Do the vets agree/disagree with me here?
Gveoniz is just getting into the game I think and I try not to lynch newbies on Day 1 without exceptionally strong reasons.
I'm pretty sure we'll find more scum OFF the faust wagon, but I need to know exactly who was on the damn wagon in the first place.
Vote: Archetype
Will also vote for Gveoniz. Liopoil and Jimm have done enough to avoid the lurker lynch, at which point I would need like other reasons to lynch them, and I don't have any.
If Archetype is scum, I think Eevee is suspicious. I know Eevee is voting for Arch, but I feel like he keeps trying to subtly push things in a different direction. Like just now when he said, okay doesn't matter which lurker, let's do the one Voltaire thinks (even though we all mostly prefer Arch), and then tried to find Jimm scummy for something that even he doesn't really think is scummy.
I think fire mafia if they want to hit ice mafia should target in this order:you got it backwards again!
I think fire mafia if they want to hit ice mafia should target in this order:you got it backwards again!
voltaire, I am happy to do a lynch today. I think sudgy or liopoil are good candidates.I keep sudgy there because he still hasn't given us those notes that he promised. I want to know what he is thinking
Situations that allow town D4 mislynch with the chance of a win remaining.Ok. here are my percentages.
1. We lynch scum, doctor dies
6. We no lynch. scum/VT die
9. We no lynch. scum/doctor die
The "interesting" situations:
4. We lynch town. VT/VT die
5. We lynch town. VT/Doctor die
7. We no lynch. VT/VT die
8. We no lynch. VT/Doctor die
The "simple" situations:
2. We lynch town. scum/VT die
3. We lynch town. scum/doctor die
In summary: Gveo is Fire is Robz. I disagree with yuma saying that Eevee would not put myself or sudgy in the "scum" category (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg317825#msg317825) and say Ice is Sudgy
all right. I will do a comprehensive reread of sudgy and lio. (comprehensive might be strong) Basically, I don't get the same gut feeling about lio as I do sudgy. Let me look through again and see what I come up with. I do think it either sudgy or lio are scum, but I don't think it is both of them. I know you fall on the lio side, I fall on the sudgy side. my next post will be a lio/sudgy compare/contrast. (could be a little while)In summary: Gveo is Fire is Robz. I disagree with yuma saying that Eevee would not put myself or sudgy in the "scum" category (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg317825#msg317825) and say Ice is Sudgy
All that stuff about lio and you still think he's (more likely) town?
list ranking all living players in order of "likeliest to be Robz's partner{most likely to least likely}
thank you yuma for your reads. FOS everyone elseTotally irrelevant to what we should be talking now, but you have FOS the IC 3 times for the same reason now...
And can some one summaries why sudgy why he is treated as "not scum"? I thought I understood it before I cannot think of any thing about him any more.
voltaire, I am happy to do a lynch today. I think sudgy or liopoil are good candidates.I keep sudgy there because he still hasn't given us those notes that he promised. I want to know what he is thinking
Reading Day 1, I don't see how sudgy could be Robz' partner.
Jimmmm: putting me at the top of his Robz read is interesting since he is the only one to really have me on the top there. I don't see that as scummy, just as his own opinion. Scum would find it easier to follow the leader than to break away and make their own course at this point in the game.sorry got confused with gveo. I am second on his list
Jimmmm: putting me at the top of his Robz read is interesting since he is the only one to really have me on the top there. I don't see that as scummy, just as his own opinion. Scum would find it easier to follow the leader than to break away and make their own course at this point in the game.
hmmm... hmmm... (there isn't a need to state intent to hammer lio. None at all...)
hammer time. faust is getting lynched anyways, that is pretty obvious. Maybe I am completely wrong about faust. I hate the idea of a player getting lynched two days in a row. But sometimes that is just the way it is.
But he is going to get lynched today. I don't really like it, but that's how it goes, so why prolong the inevitable....
vote: faust
Now at least day2 will be going when I am around a bit more (note... this isn't why I am doing this, but is certainly a small, but very selfish part.
I mean, it had been 18 hours since faust's last post. Surely if you believe it is so important for lynched players to say some final words before the hammer rather than during twilight you would have waiting for faust to do so?
Why do you all think that fire mafia will shoot voltaire?
Their advantage of winning if there are just two scum left if negligible, because almost every time one of them will die before then. And if there's one thing that my simulator showed, it's that fire mafia shooting the doctor really hurts them, because it loses a chance to hit the other team, and gives the other team an extra chance to hit them. If I were fire mafia there's no way that I'd shoot voltaire. I think both scum have to shoot for each other.
Will actually post yuma case today for-real-this-time.
I've reread robz and eevee! I'll only comment on their interactions with still-alive-non-liopoil/voltaire players, or anything else that might give me some insight into the likelihood of still-alive-non-liopoil/voltaire players being robz's partner.
robz first, D1:
- His only mention of voltgloss D1 was that he thought town!voltgloss asked a lot of questions (and voltgloss was asking a lot of questions). I think it's pretty likely that his partner was the one who suspected voltgloss. Who suspected voltgloss?
- the two people he talks the most about are sudgy and E. This started when he analyzed each vote on his wagon. He had a townread on E and scumread on sudgy. votes sudgy, later moves to faust for scumslip
- he gave gveoniz a newbie pass
- when he popped in after yuma's hammer:Okay caught up. Well, I'm fine with that, a bit early but fine. Thanks for hammering your partner, yuma.
D2:
- says very little about yuma's hammer even though that was a major topic, doesn't want to lynch him
- talks a lot about E, doesn't want to lynch him either
- he ends up deciding he just wants to lynch a lurker. He goes back and forth between a bunch of people, but ends up voting archetype, saying he's willing to vote gveoniz though. later says that he doesn't know how anyone could look at yuma's archetype case and prefer a gveoniz lynch.
So, based purely off of this, I think that E and Yuma are the most likely to be Robz's partner. sudgy is least likely. gveoniz and jimmmm are in the middle, gveoniz slightly less likely than jimmmm.
Eevee reread, again only including things that could give me insight to the chance of being ice mafia for players still alive that aren't voltaire/liopoil:And then a summary:
D1:
- mentions multiple times how E is playing well, not like a newbie, doesn't need to mention newness over and over again. Should check to see if E changed his posting style after this.
- votes NHS (Jimmmmm) to get him to post
- specifically says that he is null on the faust/sudgy thing.
He really doesn't talk much about other people D1, or at least, not about people still alive. This is all I could find.
D2:Why doesn't he know what to make of it? this is something that's pretty clearly scummy in this setup. player A suspects player B, player B turns up dead, player A is suspicious. But eevee doesn't know what to make of this. Now, this is especially interesting because eevee's team didn't kill voltgloss, robz888's team did. So, if yuma is eevee's partner, eevee KNOWS that yuma suspecting voltgloss isn't scummy, because he didn't kill him! but if he isn't eevee partner, eevee should suspect yuma for this.I went back to look now, and seems the thing I was recalling was nothing Voltgloss said himself - it was the fact yuma suspected him day 1, which isn't something I'd expect to happen. No idea what to make of that though.I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.
What were they?
- has scumread on yuma for hammer, talks w/yuma a fair bit about why, explaining himself, etc. But he never votes for yuma!
- agrees w/voltaire that E has rocketed up the scum ladder
- posts reads w/out explanation (including townread on yuma all of a sudden), says will explain later. does:--snip--so slight scumreads on sudgy/E. But the bolded is the interesting bit. He never explains his reasoning for the sudden townread on yuma!
Basically, my reads at this point are:
--snip--
yuma: Should probably explain this in it's own post, especially as I'm blanking on verbalizing the reasons for the 180° right now.
Gweoniz, Jimmmm, liopoil: I'm pretty much totally null for the lack of information
--snip--
sudgy: His answers to yuma's grilling regarding the faust-vote are very lackluster to me. I see a strong possibility of scum putting down a scummy vote, being called out on it and not being able to explain it. Especially as sudgy's attitude hasn't been "I made a mistake", which is what again I'd think the plausible town narrative would be. He is insisting he had sufficient reasons for the vote, yet is as far as I can see unable to provide them.
E: Well, the timeline, as I see it, for E's day 2 is he does a couple of very scummy things (his arbitrary excluding and including people of different lists and deciding where the scum lies based on his assumptions reeked of scum just wanting to manipulate town towards his desired direction, and I covered how scummy I deemed his sheeping of Robz's case when I answered to that), gets called out on them (by the IC, of all people) and when the general atmosphere clearly starts to turn towards him being thought of as a lynch candidate, he rushes off to do quite extensive rereads, changes his tone of posting completely (I want to say from scummy to more calculated and cautious but that's just my perspective). Now, I do not want to give the impression I don't appreciate the work he put into the rereads and the game in general - I know it tremendously helped me to catch up quickly and more effortlessly. However, I disagree with giving him town cred for that - in fact it builds more towards the narrative of scum aggressively pursuing a mislynch (=lynch of someone not in his team), until he realizes he stepped over the line and then bolting back to his trench to wait out the attack (wait out not by lurking but by posting non-controversial stuff, and so much of it that the earlier stuff would be forgotten or forgiven.. some people react to cases on them by staying silent and hoping the case disappears, to me it seems like e reacted by abandoning his earlier goal of aggressively pushing us towards a lynch and just taking a defensive (albeit a very active) stance). This metaphor is much clearer in my heads, but think of it as a WW2 battle, first he runs from the trenches his guns blazing at his enemies like Rambo, then he gets called out on trying to shoot them and they shoot back, so he retreats to the bunker to wait out until we forget about him.
- says Gveoniz's partner would have warned him about playing differently.
- talks more, pushing E scumread.hmmmm... I think this points to Jimmmmm not being eevee's partner, but I'm not sure.48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
Or you are scum and just bold.
So, based purely on this, in terms of how likely they are to be eevee's partner:
Yuma>>>Gveoniz>>>sudgy>E>Jimmmmm.
to put things together in a more useful format... tiers!
Robz:
most likely to be partner: yuma, E
middle-tier: gveoniz, Jimmmmm
unlikely to be partner: sudgy
Eevee:
most likely to be partner: yuma
middle-tier: gveoniz
unlikely to be partner: sudgy, E, Jimmmm
again note that this is only based on robz/eevee's interactions with the players, the player's interactions with robz/eevee are not included.
Why do you all think that fire mafia will shoot voltaire?
Their advantage of winning if there are just two scum left if negligible, because almost every time one of them will die before then. And if there's one thing that my simulator showed, it's that fire mafia shooting the doctor really hurts them, because it loses a chance to hit the other team, and gives the other team an extra chance to hit them. If I were fire mafia there's no way that I'd shoot voltaire. I think both scum have to shoot for each other.
Will actually post yuma case today for-real-this-time.
I would like everyone to post a list ranking all living players in order of "likeliest to be Robz's partner."
right, and I agree that no lynch is a good idea, I'm more talking to yuma and voltaire who have been specifically fire-hunting because of this.Why do you all think that fire mafia will shoot voltaire?
Their advantage of winning if there are just two scum left if negligible, because almost every time one of them will die before then. And if there's one thing that my simulator showed, it's that fire mafia shooting the doctor really hurts them, because it loses a chance to hit the other team, and gives the other team an extra chance to hit them. If I were fire mafia there's no way that I'd shoot voltaire. I think both scum have to shoot for each other.
Will actually post yuma case today for-real-this-time.
Obviously it would be great if they don't shoot Volt. I'm not assuming they will, but worst-case for us is that they do. The possibility of them doing otherwise makes the no-lynch even better.
The possibility of them doing otherwise makes the no-lynch even better.
Fire mafia shooting at other scum is better for town than them shooting for the claimed IC doctor... right?The possibility of them doing otherwise makes the no-lynch even better.
Wait, it does? Why? I might be forgetting everything I said last week.
Fire mafia shooting at other scum is better for town than them shooting for the claimed IC doctor... right?The possibility of them doing otherwise makes the no-lynch even better.
Wait, it does? Why? I might be forgetting everything I said last week.
If they both shoot non-Volts then worst case they take out two VTs, which is still better than losing Volt and a VT.
If they both shoot non-Volts then worst case they take out two VTs, which is still better than losing Volt and a VT.
You're right, I was thinking about the scenarios where we mislynched today.
Ignore my second request.
Since there is a pretty decent chance that I die tonight, I'll give my final reads when I hammer no-lynch. Please let me hammer no-lynch. Not letting me do so is a scum confession and the other guy will kill you tonight. :)
Request vote count please.
I thought we were deadlining out?
And, I would post my Robz partner thing as you were asking, but I have no idea yet, so sorry.
I thought we were deadlining out?
And, I would post my Robz partner thing as you were asking, but I have no idea yet, so sorry.
Oh right. I forgot everything.
Please tell me you will have an idea by the deadline, then? You're clearly following the thread, so it can't be true that you're that too busy.
Things I want to see before we time out/vote no lynch:3) my yuma case that I am currently typing up?
1) sudgy's comments
2) more stuff from gveo would be nice (I want to hear more about why I am his #1 on being Robz partner but that is kind of selfish)
And that is basically it. I really don't see a rush to get anywhere. I would hope that sudgy can get his reads down tonight so we can have a little time to comment tomorrow, but that isn't even all that critical in my opinion. As long as they are out there for us to think about overnight. I think everyone will be relatively V/LA over the rest of this week due to Thanksgiving, so I really don't expect to have any analysis of N3 until Monday anyway other than a check-in. We will have enough time to catch up and do stuff next week that there should be no rush to post over the weekend as soon as night ends. In fact, what do you guys think about asking to push night a little longer to make sure no one feels pressure from the game over thanksgiving? I don't know if there is precedent for this or not, but I would feel freed up a bit if we didn't start D4 until maybe Saturday night/sometime Sunday. While it would be nice to finish the game sooner rather than later, I think trying to force stuff to happen over Thanksgiving is really not a great idea.
vote: N3 lasts 72-96 hours (+24-48 hours)
Who's up for just lynching lio today? I am seriously considering that notion.
Why do you all think that fire mafia will shoot voltaire?
...And then a couple hours later in his next post he votes for me, citing POE. But this I think is really scummy. It's avoiding the question. He doesn't have a refutation, but doesn't want to admit it. If he were town I think he would just look at if the reasoning behind my suspicion was valid, and then tell the truth, perhaps even admitting that it looks bad, but is an unfortunate coincidence.E.i., is there a reason that you would disagree with said points if they were made on a different player?
I don't know. Maybe. That is hard to say because that is a situation that doesn't exist, so I can't really say what I would think. Right now I know the points are incorrect because I know what I know. If I didn't know what I know it might have more weight--probably would--but I can't hypothesize what I would think in that situation because I am not in that situation.
So I guess I would consider it and see if it was of worth, whereas here I am just completely rejecting it because of what I know.
Why doesn't he know what to make of it? this is something that's pretty clearly scummy in this setup. player A suspects player B, player B turns up dead, player A is suspicious. But eevee doesn't know what to make of this. Now, this is especially interesting because eevee's team didn't kill voltgloss, robz888's team did. So, if yuma is eevee's partner, eevee KNOWS that yuma suspecting voltgloss isn't scummy, because he didn't kill him! but if he isn't eevee partner, eevee should suspect yuma for this.I went back to look now, and seems the thing I was recalling was nothing Voltgloss said himself - it was the fact yuma suspected him day 1, which isn't something I'd expect to happen. No idea what to make of that though.I recall Voltgloss having some strong opinions. Should go back to check what they were in the light of someone wanting to kill him.
What were they?
yuma: Should probably explain this in it's own post, especially as I'm blanking on verbalizing the reasons for the 180° right now.He never explains his reasoning for the sudden townread on yuma!
- he then says it's unfortunate that he isn't dead. And has to check to see if he isn't dead... this I feel is fake because I for one always eagerly check the first post of the day, not so much to see if I'm dead, but to see what happened in general.
long day of work followed by an epic soccer game (Go Real Salt Lake) means it is time for bed for me. So you get nothing from me until tomorrow after work. I am sure people have stuff for me to respond to if I am not dead... I guess I had better make sure I am not dead.
Ok. not dead. That is kinda unfortunate (not that I completely expected it to happen). So you'll hear from me tomorrow I am sure
This is actually a big deal, because he seems to be saying that part of the reason behind the hammer was to draw the NK.
- When he votes archetype, it appears to be just to get him to talk, and he specifically says that he doesn't particularly suspect arch. But then he ends up wanting him lynched? He had been emphasizing that arch has a mislynch meta prior to that... he makes a post looking at the times when arch was scum, but I'm not sure what the point/conclusion was...
t's that he didn't really express it prior to the flip. Was he just assuming that arch was scum before that?false!
Nope.And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
Are you?
If so then why the hell didn't you post?
either you are scum or a jerk you just wanted to screw town...
- gets ice and fire mafia backwards twice, something that I think is likely fake. I can believe it happening once, but twice? I think he's doing it to make it look like he isn't either one, because if he was either one he wouldn't make those mistakes.
@2.7: I'm sorry, but I might not manage to make comments in time. I'll try, but I still have a lot going on.
My current comments would be that I still think Gveo is scum, but I have no idea if he's fire or ice.
Question for yuma: In the light of this post:hmmm... hmmm... (there isn't a need to state intent to hammer lio. None at all...)
hammer time. faust is getting lynched anyways, that is pretty obvious. Maybe I am completely wrong about faust. I hate the idea of a player getting lynched two days in a row. But sometimes that is just the way it is.
But he is going to get lynched today. I don't really like it, but that's how it goes, so why prolong the inevitable....
vote: faust
Now at least day2 will be going when I am around a bit more (note... this isn't why I am doing this, but is certainly a small, but very selfish part.
What would you have expected Arch to say before the hammer that would have helped?
why not everything? because you don't have time right now, or because the rest of the points are valid?
I am not going to respond to everything but a few points:Quote- he then says it's unfortunate that he isn't dead. And has to check to see if he isn't dead... this I feel is fake because I for one always eagerly check the first post of the day, not so much to see if I'm dead, but to see what happened in general.
Let's look at the specifics of that post:
This is a check in post:long day of work followed by an epic soccer game (Go Real Salt Lake) means it is time for bed for me. So you get nothing from me until tomorrow after work. I am sure people have stuff for me to respond to if I am not dead... I guess I had better make sure I am not dead.
Ok. not dead. That is kinda unfortunate (not that I completely expected it to happen). So you'll hear from me tomorrow I am sure
I hit the button to the right that takes you to the end... I couldn't just immediately jump to the first page of day2, that would require some searching... which I ultimately had to do becuase I didn't want to pull a Morgrim and post when dead.QuoteThis is actually a big deal, because he seems to be saying that part of the reason behind the hammer was to draw the NK.
I never said I hammered to draw the NK. Alluding that I did is manipulating my statements.Quote- When he votes archetype, it appears to be just to get him to talk, and he specifically says that he doesn't particularly suspect arch. But then he ends up wanting him lynched? He had been emphasizing that arch has a mislynch meta prior to that... he makes a post looking at the times when arch was scum, but I'm not sure what the point/conclusion was...
reasons for a vote can change over time. Yes I voted initially to get him to talk... but when he didn't talk and I made the comparison to him in Bankers I felt that he had a good chance of him flipping scum and was pulling a gambit by not posting.Quotet's that he didn't really express it prior to the flip. Was he just assuming that arch was scum before that?false!Nope.And that's that.
2.7 is scum by the way.
Are you?
If so then why the hell didn't you post?
either you are scum or a jerk you just wanted to screw town...
get your facts right lio....Quote- gets ice and fire mafia backwards twice, something that I think is likely fake. I can believe it happening once, but twice? I think he's doing it to make it look like he isn't either one, because if he was either one he wouldn't make those mistakes.
sorry I am not a super genius like you and never make mistakes... wait ^^^ you just did... well one more mistake from you and you must be scum...
@2.7: I'm sorry, but I might not manage to make comments in time. I'll try, but I still have a lot going on.
My current comments would be that I still think Gveo is scum, but I have no idea if he's fire or ice.
Honestly, if you are putting hours into this then I think you are putting too much time into it. We don't need a two hour longer reread synopsis. We need your opinions. Really I think a basic reread can be done in 20-30 minutes. I appreciate that you want to be thorough... but that just isn't necessary at this point, especially if the alternative is nothing. Give us something, even if it is 10 minutes worth of stuff.
So, here's my worry about no lynch
scum!yuma will likely kill me, because a) he incorrectly thinks I'm scum, and b) I suspect him.
we should no lynch anyway, HOWEVER! If I die tonight (and flip town of course), and yuma does not die, pleasepleaseplease lynch him tomorrow. If you all let scum!yuma win again by killing me after I catch him, I will be even more unhappy than I was last time. Can you guys promise to really give my case another look tomorrow if I'm not around to advertize it? I am really pretty confident in my case and will take the blame if yuma ends up being town.
why not everything? because you don't have time right now, or because the rest of the points are valid?
I find it hard to figure things out without it being all orderly and such. That's kind of a weak point of mine...
2) more stuff from gveo would be nice (I want to hear more about why I am his #1 on being Robz partner but that is kind of selfish)You are not that far ahead from the other players, you is just slightly scummier than the rest in my opinion. For why I put you on top, I just don't have anyone else to put above you.
Voltaire has also said to look at yuma carefully if he dies. voltaire, if I die tonight (and really am town of course), will you trust my case more, and that you aren't being tricked into thinking scum!yuma is tricking you?
As I type this I am getting more uncertain about placing Gveo over sudgy as far as scumminess goes, but what is posted cannot be undone. (and I really wanted to get something out there.)
As I stated previously, I think that either yuma or liopoil are scum. However, due to their posts, I am not really sure which is which.
Really the biggest thing that will help us right now is for the day to end. Voltaire is right when he says this day has just dragged on.
Yeah, let me change my stance from earlier. Can we make night last 18-24 hours? We could maybe finish the game by thanksgiving.......Really the biggest thing that will help us right now is for the day to end. Voltaire is right when he says this day has just dragged on.
I would happily post my reads and hammer no-lynch (someone else would need to vote it first) but that won't change the fact that night will be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long!
Yeah, let me change my stance from earlier. Can we make night last 18-24 hours? We could maybe finish the game by thanksgiving.......Really the biggest thing that will help us right now is for the day to end. Voltaire is right when he says this day has just dragged on.
I would happily post my reads and hammer no-lynch (someone else would need to vote it first) but that won't change the fact that night will be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long!
Yeah, let me change my stance from earlier. Can we make night last 18-24 hours? We could maybe finish the game by thanksgiving.......Really the biggest thing that will help us right now is for the day to end. Voltaire is right when he says this day has just dragged on.
I would happily post my reads and hammer no-lynch (someone else would need to vote it first) but that won't change the fact that night will be soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long!
Putting all the lists together:Well, your Modern Community list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9308.msg298731#msg298731) ended up with the only bolded and italicized person being scum (Dsell), so this has worked in the past. Looking forward to your next post as to why I am scum.
sudgy, liopoil, Archetype, Gveoniz, e, yuma, faust
That is all the content that Robz has contributed to the discussion. I know Robz is a good player and am sure he has something to say on the doctor issue himself, but it is safer to agree with another player and let that player take the glory/fall D1. I realize the game has only been going for about 16 hours, and there is plenty of time left "today" but for now I am content with my vote until we get at least a walk-through of why robz agrees with Ashersky's 4 points (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310512#msg310512) or something.
(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)
This also means I have been convinced of Robz opinion on the matter, and have no more grounds for my current vote. Unvote
Robz is correct that I unvoted him earlier when I joined the crew calling for the doctor reveal. The portion of my vote that wasn't based on RVS (or really just a great opportunity for a movie quote) fell through when I joined that crew, so I thought it only fair that i recall my vote
Want to lynch (first): Archetype
Also want to lynch: Faust, Yuma, Sudgy
Wouldn't mind lynching: liopoil
I'll wait until D2 to consider lynching: Robz, Eevee, Voltgloss, Gveoniz, Ashersky, NHS's replacement
Won't lynch: Voltaire
I have a town read on Robz based on his D1 play....
...
...(confident with those in italics-the ones I am comfortable with their placement I underlined)
5 VT (2.7, Sudgy, Robz, Gveoniz, Eevee), 1 Doc (Voltaire), and 4 scum on two different teams (Yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm, liopoil)
Put into quiz format:
Want to Lynch: Archetype
Wouldn't mind lynching: Yuma
Wouldn't shed a tear over lynching: Sudgy, Eevee, Jimmmm, liopoil
Want to wait for D3 to decide: Robz, Gveoniz
Won't lynch: 2.7, Voltaire
I recognize this list is a little ambitious as well as being a little unscientific (read gut-feeling) but we need to start with something.
What Robz said...
Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on. I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)
Points 3 and 4 are convincing though. A good response from Eevee is in order, I think.
Voltaire, sure I am rocketing up your scum ladder, but is it because I am backing up people that you have targeted? Well, let me support Robz some more...
So, why e is scum. It's mainly based on Robz being scum.Ok. I will try to be thorough in my defense.
That is all the content that Robz has contributed to the discussion. I know Robz is a good player and am sure he has something to say on the doctor issue himself, but it is safer to agree with another player and let that player take the glory/fall D1. I realize the game has only been going for about 16 hours, and there is plenty of time left "today" but for now I am content with my vote until we get at least a walk-through of why robz agrees with Ashersky's 4 points (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9601.msg310512#msg310512) or something.
(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)
First, he give Robz a scumread for something that shouldn't have a scumread, then, after it:
I don't see Robz as scum specifically, but I there is not a whole lot of content to his posts, and I just want a little more reasoning behind his absolute claim. If it were purely for lack of discussion I would have voted liopoil, archetype, sudgy, gveoniz, or NHS since they have a combined 9 posts, but Robz made such a bold claim that I want to hear more from him, rather than his agreement with othersExplanations from Voltgloss and sudgy still needed then. And Voltgloss's is more of an update as he had a reason to start with.You don't even ask for my reason? (I guess using Star Wars to frame a vote does kind of make it RVS) but still....
Yes, I was able to puzzle out a reason from your post. I would maintain that Robz is wrong that all scum will oppose Doctor claiming, not that Robz himself is scum. What makes you see it differently?
This also means I have been convinced of Robz opinion on the matter, and have no more grounds for my current vote. Unvote
This is the classic "buss the teammate with no risk" ploy. You shouldn't vote someone for disagreeing with you, and he randomly unvotes later.
Robz is correct that I unvoted him earlier when I joined the crew calling for the doctor reveal. The portion of my vote that wasn't based on RVS (or really just a great opportunity for a movie quote) fell through when I joined that crew, so I thought it only fair that i recall my vote
He really feels like he needs to justify his vote...
Want to lynch (first): Archetype
Also want to lynch: Faust, Yuma, Sudgy
Wouldn't mind lynching: liopoil
I'll wait until D2 to consider lynching: Robz, Eevee, Voltgloss, Gveoniz, Ashersky, NHS's replacement
Won't lynch: Voltaire
Here he says he'll wait until D2 to consider lynching Robz... Good place for a scumbuddy.
I have a town read on Robz based on his D1 play....
...
...(confident with those in italics-the ones I am comfortable with their placement I underlined)
5 VT (2.7, Sudgy, Robz, Gveoniz, Eevee), 1 Doc (Voltaire), and 4 scum on two different teams (Yuma, Archetype, Jimmmmm, liopoil)
Put into quiz format:
Want to Lynch: Archetype
Wouldn't mind lynching: Yuma
Wouldn't shed a tear over lynching: Sudgy, Eevee, Jimmmm, liopoil
Want to wait for D3 to decide: Robz, Gveoniz
Won't lynch: 2.7, Voltaire
I recognize this list is a little ambitious as well as being a little unscientific (read gut-feeling) but we need to start with something.
He is "comfortable" putting Robz as town, and pushes him back until D3. The pushing back is the biggest thing in the post, scum can easily say, "I won't worry about my partner until later..."
What Robz said...
Buddying the scum...
Voltaire, you are supposed to be leading us, and having narrow-minded focus on a rage-vote (sure there are other reasons but it really, really looks to be 70% rage-vote) is not good for town. Before you try to continue on about why this is more like 25% rage vote, let me remind you about some of the things you said:I was trying to show Voltaire that he could not maintain his vote on Yuma while successfully leading town. I really appreciate the way Voltaire has led us today. He has stayed away from making scum accusations, made some town reads, and led the discussion in a positive direction. Just like the IC is supposed to do.I have ABCD statements from: Voltgloss, faust, 2.7, Gveoniz, Robz, sudgy, and Eevee.
I still need them from: liopoil, Archetype, ashersky, Yuma, NHSederholm
Spoiler alert: I'd like us to lynch a lurker. Freakin' post, people.I'm leaving now. Let the record show that I currently lean towards thinking both sudgy and faust are town (agree with yuma). Make of that what you will.1) You agreed with yuma, and believe what you will about yuma's claim that he misread this (from yuma's reaction to everything I really do believe yuma on this. It also makes me begin to lean much more on yuma being town) but the thing is, before yuma hammered, you weren't against him, you were even beginning to vouch for him and his ideas.
2) Voting yuma also goes against your initial thoughts to lynch a lurker.
Reviewing these points makes me believe that your vote is actually more like 90% rage-vote. Rage-voting is never good for town, and while I trust you are the doctor, your posts are causing me to not trust your lead
Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on. I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)
Points 3 and 4 are convincing though. A good response from Eevee is in order, I think.
And sheeping him...
Voltaire, sure I am rocketing up your scum ladder, but is it because I am backing up people that you have targeted? Well, let me support Robz some more...
And defending him...
Not much else, and I have to go. The main thing is his buddying with Robz, when he hasn't really done it with anybody else.
two non-comital reads here about lipoil and gveo:Everything here is a point against me and some other player... Robz didn't commit to a read on me OR gveoniz... he said we should look at those OFF wagon, which doesn't include most players, including me... he said that both Jimmmmmm and I had said enough to avoid a lurker lynch... all of these comments are pretty non-specific.Of our lurkers... NHS isn't actually a lurker, just someone who probably needs to be replaced.
Archetype is very often mislynched, and pretty lurky is town.
Sudgy is lurking and fits some scum criteria for me, so cool.
As for liopoil, I have no idea what liopoil's meta is, except I think I've seen him lurk as town but try to have good content, sort of like theorel but less extreme. Do the vets agree/disagree with me here?
Gveoniz is just getting into the game I think and I try not to lynch newbies on Day 1 without exceptionally strong reasons.
Others have mentioned this quote as well:I'm pretty sure we'll find more scum OFF the faust wagon, but I need to know exactly who was on the damn wagon in the first place.
which I think from a point of view points more toward players on the wagon (so that would be liopoil of the people still alive that I haven't already eliminated)
and toward the end of day he says this:Vote: Archetype
Will also vote for Gveoniz. Liopoil and Jimm have done enough to avoid the lurker lynch, at which point I would need like other reasons to lynch them, and I don't have any.
If Archetype is scum, I think Eevee is suspicious. I know Eevee is voting for Arch, but I feel like he keeps trying to subtly push things in a different direction. Like just now when he said, okay doesn't matter which lurker, let's do the one Voltaire thinks (even though we all mostly prefer Arch), and then tried to find Jimm scummy for something that even he doesn't really think is scummy.
which I think puts gveo more on the less likely to be partners side... Maybe. Maybe robz is setting himself to potentially hammer gveo is the lynch gets to that point... But he does give liopoil a safety net and I already talked about how I dont think robz would have started a wagon on partner jimmm....
Everything here is a point against me and some other player... Robz didn't commit to a read on me OR gveoniz... he said we should look at those OFF wagon, which doesn't include most players, including me... he said that both Jimmmmmm and I had said enough to avoid a lurker lynch... all of these comments are pretty non-specific.
This post is pretty much the only reason I've seen so far to suspect me. The case on me amounts to this, and POE I think, as far as I've seen. Voltaire has repeatedly expressed suspicion on me, and I still don't think he's said why, although I may have missed it... Yuma suspects me because he eliminated everyone else. If yuma is town, there are TWO non-yuma scum, so he should know that he must be wrong about at least one of the players he thinks isn't scum. I just think this is really weak.
And so I'm confused how people can not think that Yuma is more suspicious than me... I made a case that had at least 10 or so points... all of which as far as I can tell are valid. And nobody except yuma and E has said anything regarding the case... have people read it? and E didn't really even say anything regarding it, he stayed neutral.....
I am not expecting anything like an auto-yuma lynch tomorrow... I am expecting people to really really really consider lynching yuma tomorrow, and only lynch someone else if they have a good reason to believe they are more likely to be scum than yuma... and make sure that the reasons I gave for suspecting him are not forgotten like they were in mean girls. And it's because of this that I want people to comment on it now so I can explain it further for after my likely death tonight.
we should no lynch anyway, HOWEVER! If I die tonight (and flip town of course), and yuma does not die, pleasepleaseplease lynch him tomorrow.
6 minutes to deadline!
6 minutes to deadline!I know. I saw 6 minutes, then realized that was an hour and a half ago....
Considering night length, I will not be opening the thread in Thanksgiving. I will try to get to it on Friday, but I'll be away from home and may not have a computer. If I do, I'll open it Friday morning. If not, it will be Saturday after I get home.
Alright, that was unexpected. We're basically in the same position as yesterday but much worse.I think we should not waste too much time theory talking today, those two who try to encourage us to scum hunt yesterday are now dead town. And we also have some new information to be analysed.
Should we lynch today? If we do we're toast unless mafia kills each other, and if we don't we might still have a chance (if one mafia kills the other and the other kills a townie is still okay).
--------------------------------Alright, that was unexpected. We're basically in the same position as yesterday but much worse.I think we should not waste too much time theory talking today, those two who try to encourage us to scum hunt yesterday are now dead town. And we also have some new information to be analysed.
Should we lynch today? If we do we're toast unless mafia kills each other, and if we don't we might still have a chance (if one mafia kills the other and the other kills a townie is still okay).
By the way, do the "toast" have any significance?
WHAT?!!?!??
WHAT?!!?!??
Why the shock?
WHAT?!!?!??
Why the shock?
I think it was that both yuma and e were town.
WHAT?!!?!??
Why the shock?
I think it was that both yuma and e were town.
Don't we let people give their own answers?
Do you agree with me that lio and Gveo are the most likely remaining scum?
Again assuming that Volt will not protect anyone.
Again assuming that Volt will not protect anyone.
What if I do? Would that be better? I ask only because it seems you've already looked at a lot of the odds.
a) no scum died, so scum failed pretty badlyWHAT?!!?!??
Why the shock?
liopoil, Gveoniz: who would you say your fellow remaining VT is?I'd guess sudgy probably. To answer voltaire's question:
Robz888: Has had skirmishes with voltaire and eevee today, and from my view, lost them both. I thought voltaire had the more compelling reasoning (inb4 "buddying the IC! scumtell!") and that robz's frustration was either an exaggeration or an overreaction. And he backed down from his eevee read, possibly because he may have been scum making it up and realized it was a bad case. However, on the other hand, if he is scum, he should be looking for the other scumteam anyway, so I guess the read was probably legitimate. I also don't like that his only reason for voting faust was the scumslip, unlike everyone else (I think) who had their own reasons. This stuff is not the sort of thing that makes me think, ooo, this is scummy! It's just a bit off. Not against lynching him at all, but there are probably better options.
Eevee: has significantly more posts and content on D2 than he did D1. I think this is either: scum who realized after D1 that he needs to up his contributions (which weren't all that low anyway), or town who suddenly has lots more to talk about! Or maybe null because he just happened to have more time to post now than he did before. But between the town/scum scenarios, I think the town is more likely.
Homework for everyone: list everyone in order, scum to town. You can combine odds of fire/ice together.Liopoil
Is there anyone who is staunchly opposed to lynching?
Is there anyone who is staunchly opposed to lynching?
Me! Because I think it's a lot harder to lynch scum twice in a row than it is to let scum deal with it.
vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
Post count, from start of game to doctor claim
37 ashersky
31 Voltgloss
24 yuma
17 2.7...
14 Voltaire
13 Robz
9 Eevee
8 liopoil
7 faust
5 sudgy
4 Archetype
2 Gveoniz
1 NHS(Updated) Opinions about whether or not the doctor should claim, prior to my claim:
Claim D1
ashersky
yuma
Voltaire
sudgy
Gveoniz
Eevee (initially anti-claim)
Robz
2.7 (initially anti-claim)
Claim D2
Archetype
Uncertain
Voltgloss
faust (initially pro-claim)
Anti-claim
liopoil
No opinion expressed
NHSQuote from: D1 Final Votecountfaust (7): sudgy, ashersky, Voltgloss, Robz888, Archetype, liopoil, yuma
sudgy (1): faust
Archetype (2): Voltaire, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (3): Jimmmmm, Eevee, GveonizQuote from: D2 Final VotecountGveoniz (1): Jimmmmm,
Archetype (6): 2.71828....., Eevee, Robz888, sudgy, yuma, liopoil
Robz888 (1): Voltaire
2.71828..... (1): Archetype
Not Voting (1): Gveoniz
vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
If you're scum, someone spent a ton of time without a partner. Sudgy I'm still clearing because whatever. lio fits "scum had to help out with the lynches somehow". I actually think you may be the other scum.
vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
If you're scum, someone spent a ton of time without a partner. Sudgy I'm still clearing because whatever. lio fits "scum had to help out with the lynches somehow". I actually think you may be the other scum.
No, no I don't. I think it's Gveo and lio.
vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
If you're scum, someone spent a ton of time without a partner. Sudgy I'm still clearing because whatever. lio fits "scum had to help out with the lynches somehow". I actually think you may be the other scum.
No, no I don't. I think it's Gveo and lio.
If you're dead set on lynching I'll support you in it. Statistically we have a better chance if we no-lynch, but if we're more confident in our reads than in probability then lynching is the way to go. I am reasonably confident that it's Gveo and lio.
Would you like me to vote now or wait until more has been said?
well I got here at a weird time... yeah, a chance to give a defense would be nice...
If you vote, one scum will totally be willing to quickhammer even if we're right and are lynching another scum. I guess I want lio to have time to give a defense?
Done about half a re-read of liopoil, up to the point where Robz and Eevee were killed. Here are the only significant interactions with those two that I could find:what happened to the second half of this reread? and is this really all you got from it?Robz888: Has had skirmishes with voltaire and eevee today, and from my view, lost them both. I thought voltaire had the more compelling reasoning (inb4 "buddying the IC! scumtell!") and that robz's frustration was either an exaggeration or an overreaction. And he backed down from his eevee read, possibly because he may have been scum making it up and realized it was a bad case. However, on the other hand, if he is scum, he should be looking for the other scumteam anyway, so I guess the read was probably legitimate. I also don't like that his only reason for voting faust was the scumslip, unlike everyone else (I think) who had their own reasons. This stuff is not the sort of thing that makes me think, ooo, this is scummy! It's just a bit off. Not against lynching him at all, but there are probably better options.Eevee: has significantly more posts and content on D2 than he did D1. I think this is either: scum who realized after D1 that he needs to up his contributions (which weren't all that low anyway), or town who suddenly has lots more to talk about! Or maybe null because he just happened to have more time to post now than he did before. But between the town/scum scenarios, I think the town is more likely.
I don't get all that much from either, but for both he leaves the possibility open of them being scum, while concluding that there are better options or they are more likely Town. Based on this I could see liopoil being on either scum team.
this does not say anything about gveoniz, which is what jimmmmmm asked about...vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
If you're scum, someone spent a ton of time without a partner. Sudgy I'm still clearing because whatever. lio fits "scum had to help out with the lynches somehow". I actually think you may be the other scum.
this does not say anything about gveoniz, which is what jimmmmmm asked about...vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
If you're scum, someone spent a ton of time without a partner. Sudgy I'm still clearing because whatever. lio fits "scum had to help out with the lynches somehow". I actually think you may be the other scum.
why do you think scum had to help out with the lynches? first of all, scum did, because robz was on both and eevee on 1... but why must there be more than that? we already know that we as a town failed pretty badly the first two days... I think townies came to their own conclusions about the lynches by themselves without scum's help, as we know some of our dead townies did.
sudgy advocated it the most.this does not say anything about gveoniz, which is what jimmmmmm asked about...vote: liopoil.
I'm sorry if this is wrong, town, but I feel good enough about it. If the rest of the town can convince one scum to vote no-lynch (or deadline out), the two town of you out there don't have to follow me on this, and I understand if you don't.
Why lio over Gveo?
If you're scum, someone spent a ton of time without a partner. Sudgy I'm still clearing because whatever. lio fits "scum had to help out with the lynches somehow". I actually think you may be the other scum.
why do you think scum had to help out with the lynches? first of all, scum did, because robz was on both and eevee on 1... but why must there be more than that? we already know that we as a town failed pretty badly the first two days... I think townies came to their own conclusions about the lynches by themselves without scum's help, as we know some of our dead townies did.
Who was it who said Gveo had a huge playstyle difference?
lio's D3 opening was scummy.This has no specifics... what was scummy about my D3 opening? I just looked back at it, and it was looking at what the night results mean for us...
Also some of this (updated with yuma/e's flips):Post count, from start of game to doctor claim
37 ashersky
31 Voltgloss
24 yuma
17 2.7...
14 Voltaire
13 Robz
9 Eevee
8 liopoil
7 faust
5 sudgy
4 Archetype
2 Gveoniz
1 NHS(Updated) Opinions about whether or not the doctor should claim, prior to my claim:
Claim D1
ashersky
yuma
Voltaire
sudgy
Gveoniz
Eevee (initially anti-claim)
Robz
2.7 (initially anti-claim)
Claim D2
Archetype
Uncertain
Voltgloss
faust (initially pro-claim)
Anti-claim
liopoil
No opinion expressed
NHSQuote from: D1 Final Votecountfaust (7): sudgy, ashersky, Voltgloss, Robz888, Archetype, liopoil, yuma
sudgy (1): faust
Archetype (2): Voltaire, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (3): Jimmmmm, Eevee, GveonizQuote from: D2 Final VotecountGveoniz (1): Jimmmmm,
Archetype (6): 2.71828....., Eevee, Robz888, sudgy, yuma, liopoil
Robz888 (1): Voltaire
2.71828..... (1): Archetype
Not Voting (1): Gveoniz
mail-mi please change the thread title.
This has no specifics... what was scummy about my D3 opening? I just looked back at it, and it was looking at what the night results mean for us...
and what is it in those posts? the wagon analysis again? see my prior post...
Not because of the advise that might had came from my partner if I have one.
??? what do you mean.This has no specifics... what was scummy about my D3 opening? I just looked back at it, and it was looking at what the night results mean for us...
and what is it in those posts? the wagon analysis again? see my prior post...
And another victory for my post-counting. All scum were in the bottom/lurkers.
And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?
And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?
that post count was from very early in the game... and I actually wasn't even at the bottom!And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?
I doubt this, show the evidence!And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?
Ever since I started tracking this. I've just never said it out loud before. It's way more likely to come from scum.
So I think gveoniz is our best lynch, one that we probably should have gone with earlier, but also one that seems to keep sliding under the radar... because of distractions in the form of "do not kill" , arch lurking even more than gveo, and no lynch.
reasons to follow soon, so you can just ignore this for now... just putting my stances out there.
Oh, you hammered Archetype? Dude. :Pno.
I'm totally willing to lynch Gveo but he's a POE lynch. That'd be fine with me. You two want to quickhammer Gveo with me?
that post count was from very early in the game... and I actually wasn't even at the bottom!And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?I doubt this, show the evidence!And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?
Ever since I started tracking this. I've just never said it out loud before. It's way more likely to come from scum.
So I think gveoniz is our best lynch, one that we probably should have gone with earlier, but also one that seems to keep sliding under the radar... because of distractions in the form of "do not kill" , arch lurking even more than gveo, and no lynch.
reasons to follow soon, so you can just ignore this for now... just putting my stances out there.
Still interested in these reasons.
...you realize I posted that less than 5 minutes ago right?So I think gveoniz is our best lynch, one that we probably should have gone with earlier, but also one that seems to keep sliding under the radar... because of distractions in the form of "do not kill" , arch lurking even more than gveo, and no lynch.
reasons to follow soon, so you can just ignore this for now... just putting my stances out there.
Still interested in these reasons.
I trust your intentions are pure, but I am skeptical that you have good enough reason to suspect people who go up in the post count throughout the game. I actually think it is the opposite. Have you collected data showing a correlation of higher post counts late in games to how often they are scum?that post count was from very early in the game... and I actually wasn't even at the bottom!And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?I doubt this, show the evidence!And lio's post count went through the roof later in the game. That's what scum does. vote: lio.since when is that what scum does?
Ever since I started tracking this. I've just never said it out loud before. It's way more likely to come from scum.
You don't believe the IC?
The point of that post count being from so early in the game was that it was before scum knew I was the IC - and I'm clearly very predictable with my D1 "method" at this point, so scum would know to post-spam if I'm the IC. That's the last "pure" vote count that can exist in this game. Other post-count data still relevant, but that's the best one.
So I think gveoniz is our best lynch, one that we probably should have gone with earlier, but also one that seems to keep sliding under the radar... because of distractions in the form of "do not kill" , arch lurking even more than gveo, and no lynch.
reasons to follow soon, so you can just ignore this for now... just putting my stances out there.
Still interested in these reasons....you realize I posted that less than 5 minutes ago right?So I think gveoniz is our best lynch, one that we probably should have gone with earlier, but also one that seems to keep sliding under the radar... because of distractions in the form of "do not kill" , arch lurking even more than gveo, and no lynch.
reasons to follow soon, so you can just ignore this for now... just putting my stances out there.
Still interested in these reasons.
Not because of the advise that might had came from my partner if I have one.
I would like everyone who thinks Gveo could be scum to present a scum!Gveo narrative that can explain this post.Not because of the advise that might had came from my partner if I have one.
I would like everyone who thinks Gveo could be scum to present a scum!Gveo narrative that can explain this post.Not because of the advise that might had came from my partner if I have one.
I would like everyone who thinks Gveo could be scum to present a scum!Gveo narrative that can explain this post.easy. Let's look at a bigger part of the post, for context:Not because of the advise that might had came from my partner if I have one.
And I will try to be more confident today and use less "I am not sure", "unable to feel" etc. Not because of the advise that might had came from my partner if I have one. If my action is really scummy, it is already too late trying to correct myself, I just don't want to continue saying the meaningless "not sure".It's not a statement that particularly points to him being scum, but it is a plausible one for him to say as scum. He's being ready-to-please, but then also pre-explaining potential accusations against him like "so he was warned by his partner!" or "He's trying to correct his scumminess!" These are, by the way, potential reasons for him to decide to stop saying things like this as scum. He wants to conform to what people want him to do (and so to stop being scummy), but wants to explain why it isn't because his partner told him to like eevee suggested. (still also possible for him to say this as eevee's partner though of course).
There are also more info to work with on D3, allowing me to be more certain.
| Fire Mafia | ||||
| shoot scum | shoot town | shoot no one | ||
| Ice | shoot scum | town | ice | ice |
| Mafia | shoot town | fire | no one | fire |
| shoot no one | fire | fire | no one |
We should try very hard to find the scums though.
If you are taking about a real life day, sorry I didn't.We should try very hard to find the scums though.
Please point me to where you have done this today.
Sudgy: Are you doing the ultimate reread for Eevee? or maybe you do not need to do it since you already know who his partner is?
heh, well now it's been a bit more than 5 minutes... please don't eat my soulface?So I think gveoniz is our best lynch, one that we probably should have gone with earlier, but also one that seems to keep sliding under the radar... because of distractions in the form of "do not kill" , arch lurking even more than gveo, and no lynch.
reasons to follow soon, so you can just ignore this for now... just putting my stances out there.
Still interested in these reasons....you realize I posted that less than 5 minutes ago right?So I think gveoniz is our best lynch, one that we probably should have gone with earlier, but also one that seems to keep sliding under the radar... because of distractions in the form of "do not kill" , arch lurking even more than gveo, and no lynch.
reasons to follow soon, so you can just ignore this for now... just putting my stances out there.
Still interested in these reasons.
Yes, it wasn't a "YOU NEVER FULFILLED YOUR PROMISE AARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH THE IC WILL EAT YOUR SOULFACE" it was a "please do get around to posting them, I want to take them into consideration before a lynch."
I guess I am going to die tonight, so let me add another case to myself:
I have never voted anyone this game, I technically voted twice, one RVS for 2.7 in my first post, and immediately override it with a faust RVS at the end of my first post. then I unvoted as soon as the wagon got serious. And I never vote again, not even a no lynch. I am surprised that no one have ever call me out on that. (Yuma have urged me to put down a vote D3, but didn't put me as scum for not voting).
I am just pointing out another "scummy" thing I did which no one have mentioned yet.
How long until deadline? A bit over a day? I want do some re-reads and try to help scum catch each other, but I'm not sure I'll have time. Huge day today (brother's wedding day) and on a plane to LA tomorrow.
So some interesting things to observe from Gveo...
18 posts in game:
(List of quotes...)
Above is listed 12 different posts where Gveo either uses his newness as an excuse, says he doesn't have strong reads or is very unsure or needs to go back to find more.
I find it very interesting that so many posts contain this sort of language... I do think it would be worth going back to look at the newbie game he was in--or if sudgy or arch who played/modded in it can just remember--to compare this behavior to that game. Cause I am wondering if this is nervous new scum behavior?
I say I am not sure because I am not sure. I admit that I fear to make mistake (more than others in this game(including 2.7), I can see that they are more confident in their posts). And I understand that this is not helpful and cannot give interaction and read to others.
All I said above are truth but those do not clear me from being "nervous scum", So:
I have been equally nervous in NMIV, it is not shown as clearly because most of the other players were new. And after looking at it myself there the last post I made is still pretty uncertainThe people in the list are pretty close together, unfortunately I still can have any definite read. I was hoping for more information in D2 but sadly no.(now I read it, I actually wrote "can" despite I meant to say "can't", that may just invalid my argument, hopefully the over all meaning can still be conveyed)
(the list...)
[You may ask:But you are no longer a complete newbie here now, you have played before so your should be able to be more confident.]
That is what I was thinking when I enter this game, but this turned out to be overwhelming, the dynamic of this game is different form a lurky newbie game. that is why I keep saying that I am unsure and need to look at it more.
Also, everyone here have reasons to avoid mistakes and look like scummy, so it is basically neutral (it is probably a bit better for scums though).
Town: avoid mis-lynch, give the scums better chance to shoot actual scums.
Scum: avoid lynch, reduce chance of being shoot by the other team.
That is what I can think of right now, please inform me if I missed any questions. I will do the reread and read list now.
Hi all! So I'm a little way towards being caught up, halfway or less.Can you explains this?
My first impression is Vote: ashersky.
@Gveoniz: YesThat can be why my plan didn't work. Scums probably have already taken that in to account. Or perhaps I just didn't the wrong thing near the end.
wouldn't have remembered they are playing had e not just referenced them (nice job with the summary posts btw, your effort is appreciated): liopoil (!), jimm, whoever else isn't mentioned except for gweoniz who I need to reread, jury is still out.
Holy cow. Anybody reread him in NMIV, and you'll agree. Vote: Gveoniz.I'll do that, but I'm wary.. feels exactly the kind of thing his partner would have warned him about night 1.
I have sympathy for Jimmm (and know from other games he really has been super busy), subbing is really hard.
48 hours to lynch. Absent a super-compelling case, I'm very likely to vote for the person who's the most viable lynch.I guess scum would be less likely to say something this scummy, but I dislike this theory. It's like you are telling scum "no worries, we won't even try to hit you today, just vote for some townie and I'll follow".
Or you are scum and just bold.
My read on sudgy or faust doesnt change much because of the interaction (=I don't read much into it) I guess what robz is saying resonates with me the best, so slightly scummier on sudgy.
I don't really follow sudgy's plan, or much of the posturing that came out of it, but between sudgy and faust, I am quite sure sudgy is and should come off as the scummier one.
Sudgy is lurking and fits some scum criteria for me, so cool.
I don't really follow sudgy's plan, or much of the posturing that came out of it, but between sudgy and faust, I am quite sure sudgy is and should come off as the scummier one.
Are you sure that's not just regular sudgy bias? It's a thing now.
I'm really really sure it's not bias, because I actually have a bias toward not wanting to lynch him, since he was lynched Day 1 in his last game. I'm voting formail-mi(sudgy) because I don't believe his thing having to do with me was actually for pressure, that was a cover explanation. this further thing with faust is not like ironclad but I think it paints him scummier than faust.
I think sudgy is slightly scummier than an average player, faust is as scummy as an average player.
im caught up and actually feel I got a decent grasp on the game despite not reading for so long. I'm super tired, so just a quick reads list to maybe spark up some discussion. I'll be back tomorrow with explanations, comments on robz's case and answers to e's clarifying questions.
but for now, I'm just mystical and give reads without explanations
town: yuma (!), Voltaire (duh)
scum: robz, e, sudgy, archetype
wouldn't have remembered they are playing had e not just referenced them (nice job with the summary posts btw, your effort is appreciated): liopoil (!), jimm, whoever else isn't mentioned except for gweoniz who I need to reread, jury is still out.
I feel I had another town read but my brain is failing me. more to
come tomorrow!
Gweoniz, Jimmmm, liopoil: I'm pretty much totally null for the lack of information (either because they haven't posted enough, because nothing in their posts has stood out to me enough or simply because I can't remember their posts). I think having a null category this size at this point in the game is ok. I could develop meaningful and informed reads on them by putting in more work, and that will become necessary later days, but given I have a healthy pool of scum reads already (so I expect these guys to mostly fill the town read category), I don't feel the effort it would take is necessary (=advances the accuracy of my reads enough compared to the unpleasant effort it would take). Basically, without being on the reread all the time, my brain can hold a meaningul, informed read on only so many players at the time.
...
sudgy: His answers to yuma's grilling regarding the faust-vote are very lackluster to me. I see a strong possibility of scum putting down a scummy vote, being called out on it and not being able to explain it. Especially as sudgy's attitude hasn't been "I made a mistake", which is what again I'd think the plausible town narrative would be. He is insisting he had sufficient reasons for the vote, yet is as far as I can see unable to provide them.
This is getting even more confusin.People are saying that they find me scummy for me not saying my vote was a mistake. Well guess what people. I'm not saying that because my vote wasn't a mistake! If you're going to think I'm scum for not lying, that is one of the weirdest ways to scumhunt ever.I think people here means Eevee. This is getting very convoluted and confusing, but I think what you are saying is "my explanation for the vote is reasonable, sufficient and the truth, how can it be scummy? should I have lied?". Our disagreement is that I don't think the explanation is reasonable or sufficient (and that if you are town, you would have acknowledged that.. instead you are continuing to insist that the suspicion based on that is unreasonable, which makes me think you as scum chose to stick to your story.
If I acknowledge that the explanation isn't reasonable or sufficient, as you say, I would be lying. I don't think that it's unreasonable or insufficient. If you think my explanation wasn't fine, that's fine by me, but saying that you think I'm scummy because I didn't say my vote was unreasonable or insufficient is stupid as I would be lying if I say that.
I'm saying the position you are taking on all this is not one of a town player.
I think town sudgy wouldn't NEED to lie - he'd agree with me. You don't, so I think you are scum that got stuck in his web of lies.
I mean I'm not expecting you to say "I agree! You got me!" so I don't think this argument is going anywhere. I'm not making it to convince you, I'm making it to convince the town (and the other scum team, if I'm right).
Holy cow. Anybody reread him in NMIV, and you'll agree. Vote: Gveoniz.I'll do that, but I'm wary.. feels exactly the kind of thing his partner would have warned him about night 1.
[...]I think putting partners as scum without ever pushing his lynch can be regarded as reasonable. (See liopoil, robz is always the third or forth scummiest on his list). On the other hand, so is null, I just don't think putting partner is proof for town or impressive scum play. (Other factor can still count)
And that's all I found. Eevee and sudgy put on what is an impressive performance if they're scumbuddies. Eevee defends Gveoniz. On the other hand, Eevee consistently called sudgy scummy without ever really pushing for his lynch.
Based on that I'm still leaning Gveo. More to come, hopefully tomorrow.
I'll also note that he's getting Gveo's name wrongHe seems to get my name wrong every time he write a read list. Some other people have mentioned that "Gveoniz" is not easy to get right, but none of them spelled them wrong.
Also, looking back at Clue Mafia (as town), I don't see Jimmmmm making this big of posts about rereads. And he did quite a bit in RMM7 as scum. These were very quick looks, I might be wrong about that, but I'm in a hurry.
Anyway, Eevee pushed my lynch quite a bit. Scum in this setup shouldn't do that, losing a partner is too much to lose. I think that makes me a lot more likely to be town. (Yes, I know I just looked up what Voltaire said)
Anyway, Eevee pushed my lynch quite a bit. Scum in this setup shouldn't do that, losing a partner is too much to lose. I think that makes me a lot more likely to be town. (Yes, I know I just looked up what Voltaire said)
Eevee did pushed a bit, but he was also on the robz things, then a 2.7 case and then he voted archetype. You are not at the danger of being lynched even when he pushed it.
I am the true scum who tries to prolong your suffering.
I am the true scum who tries to prolong your suffering.
Well done Jimmmmm. We had you figured out in the Spec QT, though! ;)
Well I didn't really do much for the win, but I'll take it. I feel like this game would have had an unsatisfying result regardless, but maybe that's just multiball. I mean, the fact that the Town never lynched correctly and still came super close to winning with either 0 or 1 correct lynch. That's not really a result that you want from a game point of view. Also, the fact that Town's best option (at least statistically) was to no-lynch makes for a boring game.
Anyway, I'm not saying I wouldn't play multiball again, I just think it has the potential to end up as a boring, unsatisfying game. Maybe we should try a variant in which the two teams know who each other are but can't kill each other? That makes sense from an "informed minority" point of view, plus the lynch is super-important as that's the only way scum will be killed.
I had no problem with this game, but yeah, it did feel unsatisfying, didn't it? But there's no question that the most deserving faction won, GG guys!
I had no problem with this game, but yeah, it did feel unsatisfying, didn't it? But there's no question that the most deserving faction won, GG guys!
Well I don't think we really deserved to win, but then I don't think Town really deserved to win either.
Suggestions for MVP?
Suggestions for MVP?
The setup beat everyone.
Seriously though, jimmmmm for surviving to the end.
Ice-mafia were the least undeserving of a win, so they wonI had no problem with this game, but yeah, it did feel unsatisfying, didn't it? But there's no question that the most deserving faction won, GG guys!
Well I don't think we really deserved to win, but then I don't think Town really deserved to win either.
Yah, most deserving, not like objectively deserving I think
fire mafia QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ML2QfDnhU25cgreat monologue there at the end.
soo much longer than the ice mafia QT... lot of good that did
I think 2.7 is also a good choice, he's proving to be pretty smart.
Well make this another game where my reads/actions were very detrimental to town. I think this might have to be nominated as town's worst performance (collectively) in a game.
Speccy QT?http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Pn3m53jHLpyT