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[Robz888]

(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)

It's against Forum Games policy to discuss ongoing games, by the way, so you shouldn't reference this.

[2.71828.....]

(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)

It's against Forum Games policy to discuss ongoing games, by the way, so you shouldn't reference this.

Thank you for correcting me.  It was unintentional to violate that policy and I won't do it again

[Robz888]

(I also know from following GoT Mafia some before this started that Robz was comfortably able to deal with the early wagon there and these early wagons rarely go anywhere since they are not based on a whole lot)

It's against Forum Games policy to discuss ongoing games, by the way, so you shouldn't reference this.

Thank you for correcting me.  It was unintentional to violate that policy and I won't do it again

Yep, sure, no problem.

[2.71828.....]

Explanations from Voltgloss and sudgy still needed then. And Voltgloss's is more of an update as he had a reason to start with.

You don't even ask for my reason?  (I guess using Star Wars to frame a vote does kind of make it RVS) but still....

Yes, I was able to puzzle out a reason from your post. I would maintain that Robz is wrong that all scum will oppose Doctor claiming, not that Robz himself is scum. What makes you see it differently?

I don't see Robz as scum specifically, but I there is not a whole lot of content to his posts, and I just want a little more reasoning behind his absolute claim.  If it were purely for lack of discussion I would have voted liopoil, archetype, sudgy, gveoniz, or NHS since they have a combined 9 posts, but Robz made such a bold claim that I want to hear more from him, rather than his agreement with others

[Robz888]

Well my statement wasn't a serious statement...

[Voltaire]

I definitely approve of Archetype votes!

[sudgy]

My vote was mainly for pressure, and Robz has had time to respond, so Unvote.

[faust]

I just read this D1 a little closer, and stumbled upon this:

Though, here's a caveat I just thought of:  if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on.  Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.

So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out.  At that point, though, they are marked for death.

Great point that I missed.  Definitely helps narrow scum's kill pool at night if they are shooting for the other team.  (Hint: they should be.)

Interesting. If ash was scum, he would have certainly thought about the consequences of his plan for scum, and he says here that he hasn't done that. So is there a reason to withhold that thought for scum!ash? I don't think so. This gives me a town read on ash.

[Voltaire]

It all comes down to whether or not the scum teams decide they want to take out each other, or wait awhile and enjoy some double NK nights (which are good for both of them).

[sudgy]

It all comes down to whether or not the scum teams decide they want to take out each other, or wait awhile and enjoy some double NK nights (which are good for both of them).

Everybody here who has played multiball (including me) say that scum always wants to kill the other scum.

[Voltaire]

It all comes down to whether or not the scum teams decide they want to take out each other, or wait awhile and enjoy some double NK nights (which are good for both of them).

Everybody here who has played multiball (including me) say that scum always wants to kill the other scum.

Well that's that then. I've never played multiball post-return. I did have to deal with a known SK as scum in HP but I think we decided to start gunning for them D2ish.

In that case, I find faust's reasoning about ash fine. I have a lite town read on him as well, mostly due to his plan having a sensible through-line for town!ash.

[Voltgloss]

Catching up.

So this is what I am getting

1.  Claiming doctor is helpful to the town right now

I think the doctor claiming plan may be a good idea. Will a scum team target the doctor over someone else? I don't think so, not even if they were sure that he would die. They're basically giving their opposing team a chance to gain an advantage over them (if scum A targets the doctor, they kill a known townie while scum B has the chance to hit one of them).

2.  Claiming doctor hurts the town later.

Remember, everyone, that if the Doctor claims and becomes IC, he is an IC who is guaranteed to die once one scumteam is dead.  This isn't a Role Madness game where there are other unknown power roles out there who can WIFOM scum at night about their kill.  Yes, I agree that the opposing scumteams create such a WIFOM and will probably mean a Doctor who claims now won't be nightkilled - for now.  But as soon as one scumteam is dead, that WIFOM disappears and nothing can bring it back.  And the Doctor is then dead... at just the time (lategame) when his Doctor protection would be most helpful.

I think 2.7 sums it up nicely.  Whether the doctor claims is the classic short-term gain vs. long-term gain debate. 

[Voltgloss]

Well, I'm at L-2. That's interesting.

Agreed.

[Voltgloss]

Explanations from Voltgloss and sudgy still needed then. And Voltgloss's is more of an update as he had a reason to start with.

My reason remains unchanged.  At this point, I haven't yet seen a reason to move my vote.

[Voltgloss]

My vote was mainly for pressure, and Robz has had time to respond, so Unvote.

But not everyone has had time to respond.

When voting for pressure reasons, seeing how the person you're voting reacts is only part of the equation.  The other part is how does everyone else react. 

Especially in this game, where we're dealing with two-person scumpairs, seeing who reacts in what way to pressure being placed on others is a vital piece of the puzzle in figuring out scumteams.  Say a scumplayer is lynched or nightkilled.  The question is then, "Who's his partner?"  And we can help answer that question by reviewing who reacted - and how - to pressure having been placed on that scumplayer while they were alive.

[Voltgloss]

I just read this D1 a little closer, and stumbled upon this:

Though, here's a caveat I just thought of:  if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on.  Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.

So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out.  At that point, though, they are marked for death.

Great point that I missed.  Definitely helps narrow scum's kill pool at night if they are shooting for the other team.  (Hint: they should be.)

This dovetails with my "is ash who doesn't carefully read the setup pregame town!ash or scum!ash" question.  I haven't yet had the chance to research this.  I do agree it tends towards townpoints for ash, unless there is precedent for scum!ash faking a less-than-thorough read of the setup.

Interesting. If ash was scum, he would have certainly thought about the consequences of his plan for scum, and he says here that he hasn't done that. So is there a reason to withhold that thought for scum!ash? I don't think so. This gives me a town read on ash.

[Voltgloss]

Quotefail.  Let's try that again.

I just read this D1 a little closer, and stumbled upon this:

Though, here's a caveat I just thought of:  if scum are trying to shoot opposing scum, the claimed doctor is the last person they want to target early on.  Because he is the LEAST likely to actually be opposing scum.

So I can see a claimed doctor surviving all the up until one scumteam is wiped out.  At that point, though, they are marked for death.

Great point that I missed.  Definitely helps narrow scum's kill pool at night if they are shooting for the other team.  (Hint: they should be.)

Interesting. If ash was scum, he would have certainly thought about the consequences of his plan for scum, and he says here that he hasn't done that. So is there a reason to withhold that thought for scum!ash? I don't think so. This gives me a town read on ash.

This dovetails with my "is ash who doesn't carefully read the setup pregame town!ash or scum!ash" question.  I haven't yet had the chance to research this.  I do agree it tends towards townpoints for ash, unless there is precedent for scum!ash faking a less-than-thorough read of the setup.

[Archetype]

An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.

[Voltaire]

Well that's that then. I've never played multiball post-return. I did have to deal with a known SK as scum in HP but I think we decided to start gunning for them D2ish.

Re-reading and caught my own mistake here. I meant WWTWDP.

[ashersky]

An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.

Because waiting for D2 means 3 chances for the Doctor to die, 2 of those chances being 100% scum controlled and without the opportunity of a claim.  Remember, the Doctor can't save himself at night.

So waiting is high-risk for little added gain.  Would we mislynch?  Probably not, because the doc would claim before it happened.  Will the doc survive the night if the scum team DOESN'T know who he is?

The doctor is MORE likely to survive past N1 if he claims than not.

[yuma]

I will continue to say this: I believe having an IC is a huge boon to town.  Knowing 100% that someone else is town with you is tremendous.  It's like Best Friends, or a Mason you can't talk to.  It changes the scope of the game for you.  Yuma should agree with me here, as he convinced me of the power of known-Town while M31 was going on.  Troy/Abed was a game-changer.

A weak PR (doctor) gets turned into a much stronger one (IC Doctor).

Imagine it this way, what if there was an Innocent Doctor role in the game?  Huge.

I do agree. IC is very good and more powerful than people give it credit for, including me who started to have some doubts about it in Warriors, but ultimately thought galz had a very strong performance.

[yuma]

Currently I have a small town read on e, so unvote. Related to that, are there any examples of new players rolling scum with a vet I can go look at?

btw, Vote: faust

Any particular reason for this?

vote: Archetype for showing up, talking theory, and leaving.

yucky vote... archetype has been mislynched more times per game as town than anyone... 7 times and in only 9 games as town. I think that f.ds cannot read archetype to save our lives...

[yuma]

Catching up.

So this is what I am getting

1.  Claiming doctor is helpful to the town right now

I think the doctor claiming plan may be a good idea. Will a scum team target the doctor over someone else? I don't think so, not even if they were sure that he would die. They're basically giving their opposing team a chance to gain an advantage over them (if scum A targets the doctor, they kill a known townie while scum B has the chance to hit one of them).

2.  Claiming doctor hurts the town later.

Remember, everyone, that if the Doctor claims and becomes IC, he is an IC who is guaranteed to die once one scumteam is dead.  This isn't a Role Madness game where there are other unknown power roles out there who can WIFOM scum at night about their kill.  Yes, I agree that the opposing scumteams create such a WIFOM and will probably mean a Doctor who claims now won't be nightkilled - for now.  But as soon as one scumteam is dead, that WIFOM disappears and nothing can bring it back.  And the Doctor is then dead... at just the time (lategame) when his Doctor protection would be most helpful.

I think 2.7 sums it up nicely.  Whether the doctor claims is the classic short-term gain vs. long-term gain debate.

But I think it goes beyond that. Let me explain...

If the doc claims now we are guaranteed a short term gain. A decreased lynch pool today and an IC point of view guaranteed for at least day1 and probably longer.

Whereas the long term is a gamble because we might not get any benefit from it if the doc waits to claim or doesn't claim.

So it isn't just short term vs long term. It is guaranteed benefits opposed to potential benefits.

[Archetype]

An IC in this setup is certainly better than a Doctor. But why not have both? Doctor claims, becomes IC, everyone is good to go. I agree with all that, but I think it should happen D2. Town points to 2.7 for having a very open mind about Doctor claiming.

Because waiting for D2 means 3 chances for the Doctor to die, 2 of those chances being 100% scum controlled and without the opportunity of a claim.  Remember, the Doctor can't save himself at night.

So waiting is high-risk for little added gain.  Would we mislynch?  Probably not, because the doc would claim before it happened.  Will the doc survive the night if the scum team DOESN'T know who he is?

The doctor is MORE likely to survive past N1 if he claims than not.

Yeah. That is a good point. However, if I was scum I'd certainly kill the claimed Doc. Maybe it's just that I've never been scum in a multiball game. But I wouldn't be all too mad if the Doc claims, but I'd rather them claim tommorow.

[Voltaire]

yucky vote... archetype has been mislynched more times per game as town than anyone... 7 times and in only 9 games as town. I think that f.ds cannot read archetype to save our lives...

You may disagree, but I stand by it. It's my first non-RVS D1 vote, early in the day. I am quite happy with it.