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[ashersky]

I'm around and desperate to avoid doing work. Anything to discuss...?

Care to sum up Voltaire's activity up to now?  Who he voted, etc.?

More helpful will be folks' reactions to him, interactions.

[Robz888]

I'm around and desperate to avoid doing work. Anything to discuss...?

Care to sum up Voltaire's activity up to now?  Who he voted, etc.?

More helpful will be folks' reactions to him, interactions.

That sounds like work.

[Robz888]

And Voltaire is like the last person we want to do that for, since he is our IC (presumably).

[ashersky]

I'm around and desperate to avoid doing work. Anything to discuss...?

Care to sum up Voltaire's activity up to now?  Who he voted, etc.?

More helpful will be folks' reactions to him, interactions.

That sounds like work.

We could just lynch lio?

[Voltgloss]

Re: Voltaire claiming:  fair enough.  I'm still not entirely convinced early Doc claiming is the best plan, but I get how it's at least a reasonable plan.  And any further discussion of the issue is academic now.

Robz, what are your thoughts on the L-2 wagon on you?

Who, if anyone, didn't comment at all on the "should Doc claim" question?

[Robz888]

Robz, what are your thoughts on the L-2 wagon on you?

Well, when it happened, I thought it was a combination of RVS and not really paying attention to the vote count, and really who cares at this point. When I pointed out that I was at L-2, I expected a rush of apologetic unvotes. I didn't get them as soon as I expected, and it also turned out that many were serious? Which I don't really get. Well, 2.7 (that's how we're naming numbers guy, yes?) is pretty new so I can't read much into him voting for me. I don't really remember who else and don't think it's important enough to look up.

Oh, I mean, Eevee was the one that threw me. Well, his answer more than the vote. I thought it was a joke that I didn't get (despite being familiar with Star Wars, at least vaguely), but I take it it was serious?

So to summarize, I said something not really serious and then got a bunch of votes that I thought were also not serious, although it turns out they sort of were, and I'm confused more than anything else.

What do you make of it?

[Robz888]

Ugh, I guess I'm being really lazy if I don't even look it up. Hold on.

[Robz888]

Okay, Voltgloss's was pure RVS but he didn't move it later.

2.7, Eevee, and sudgy all voted me because I said "Everyone who opposes the plan is scum. Out yourselves, scum!" Eevee gave the additional, cryptic Star Wars explanation that no one called him out over, which mystified me.

Faust voted for me because of RVS and some secret unexplained thing.

2.7 moved his vote. Sudgy unvoted because he felt the "pressure" had worked.

Probably the weirdest series of votes and explanations I have ever seen.

[Robz888]

2.7 isn't really scummy for it, to my mind. I like secret, unexplained strategies, so I can overlook faust. I have made RVS votes and then not moved them as well, so Voltgloss's is okay.

Eevee I just don't get it all, his explanation made me feel like I was playing a different game than him.

Sudgy's was the worst, probably. It's hard to argue that he actually thought he was pressuring me--to do what? I was active--and then came off so quickly. I mean he's most obviously lying that it was for pressure.

Well Vote: sudgy then.

[Voltgloss]

What do you make of it?

I'm thinking there may be at least one scum in your wagon.  Regardless of whether you yourself are scum or town.

Voting were, in order: myself, 2.7, Eevee, faust, and sudgy.  I know I'm town.  I'm inclined to give 2.7 a Day 1 pass that is partly "new player" status and partly "active contributor" status.  Eevee's vote was jokey in a way I associate with town!Eevee.  sudgy said his vote was for "pressure" and unvoted; I disagree that his play there is optimal, but have come to understand that town!sudgy approaches the game differently from I do, and I can see town!sudgy acting as he did.

So that leaves faust.

Vote: faust

PPE:  2.  Just looking at the vote, I see Robz and I reach different conclusions.  Posting this first then going back to read Robz's thoughts in detail.

[Voltgloss]

I'll reread faust's posts.  I had "no explanation" in my head but I guess "secret explanation" should supplant that. 

[Voltgloss]

Oh, past 2 a.m.  I'll look back at faust's posts after some sleep. 

[Robz888]

The thing is that I didn't really believe sudgy's vote was for pressure. "For pressure" read to me like a belated justification he came up with to avoid scrutiny. Now, I think I've occasionally lied as town to provide a justification for something I did after I realize what I did was not so hot. And hojnestly MAYBE that's what sudgy did.

Was Eevee kidding? Like I really, truly did not understand the Star Wars explanation. Like I missed the reference or whatever.

[faust]

NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...

[faust]

How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?

You ask a lot of questions.  Any answers to offer up?

Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt.  FYI.

I always ask a lot of questions.  And I think they're important questions to consider.  I'm trying to work through them myself.

I think town!Voltgloss makes more statements of opinion, though.

Just recalling M31, I think Voltgloss asked lots of questions there, and he was the IC.

[Robz888]

NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...

He could have been killed anyway. He's Voltaire, a player with a pretty good reputation. One team or the other might have shot him Night 1--now it's likely neither will.

[Voltgloss]

The thing is that I didn't really believe sudgy's vote was for pressure. "For pressure" read to me like a belated justification he came up with to avoid scrutiny. Now, I think I've occasionally lied as town to provide a justification for something I did after I realize what I did was not so hot. And hojnestly MAYBE that's what sudgy did.

I have vague memories of town!sudgy making numerous Day 1 "pressure" votes in LOTR2, and being very candid about it.  I'd have to doublecheck, but that's something I associate with town!sudgy's recent play.

[faust]

I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...

That's great! Let's share it with all the scum!

Vote: sudgy

[faust]

NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in. But you guys didn't even bother listening to me. I am again unhappy that I can't be around when the important discussions happen...

He could have been killed anyway. He's Voltaire, a player with a pretty good reputation. One team or the other might have shot him Night 1--now it's likely neither will.

Yeah, it probably turned out alright, but you didn't know that beforehand, did you?

[Voltgloss]

NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  Can you explain?

[faust]

NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  Can you explain?

... this has me worried a little. I think an outed doctor will die as soon as one scum team has the upper hand. If it's two scum A/one scum B/town, scum B won't shoot the doctor, they need to hit scum A. Scum A can safely shoot the doctor, and that's good for them, because they don't want a reduced lynch pool at this point (and they don't have much incentive to shoot scum B because that would mean one NK less and thus a longer game).

I'm not so sure anymore that this doctor claim is really a good idea.

[Gveoniz]

(Ignoring anything happening now and decide to post it, in case it is still useful.)

Has anyone, perchance, looked at the mafiascum plays of this setup to see how they handled the Doctor claiming/not claiming?  And how that worked out for them?  I haven't had time, but I know multiple games are linked in the wiki entry for Fire and Ice.

Finished skimming a game yesterday to see if I can learn any useful, before you even asked, but didn't post it because of its uselessness.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=17571 (open 309)

They jump into scum hunt pretty soon (without any theory talk) and then the doctor is killed N1 (with no apparent PR slip), so it seems that it is not so helpful in our current situation. In the end the town have a lucky win.

Has anyone, perchance, looked at the mafiascum plays of this setup to see how they handled the Doctor claiming/not claiming?  And how that worked out for them?  I haven't had time, but I know multiple games are linked in the wiki entry for Fire and Ice.

reading those games is horrible. Like headache inducing horrible...

the one game I just glanced through (town win) didn't discuss it. One player seems to have been very against it and the town doc was killed night3 (having a successful protection night2). ice and fire shot each other to give town the win...

I guess we were looking at the same one?

----------------------------------

I just found this one though,
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=22902 (open434)

An ice mafia fake claimed doc D1, and the real doctor only counterclaim D2. Town lost in the end.

In case you want to know where to find more games:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Fire_and_Ice#History


I understand that I =am the one who have the least post apart from NHS, whose is a new player and I can complete understand that. I am trying to catch up with everything right now, although on my first glance it seems that everything I would like to talk about after think for an entire day have already been said, I would try to express what I think and additionally see if I can add any contribution soon.

[Eevee]

unvote

My vote wasnt very serious. The joke has run it's course and robz has
done nothing to deserve to have my vote on him.

[Voltgloss]

NOT happy with the doc claim. He'll be killed as soon as we get our first correct lynch in.

I don't understand what you are saying here.  Can you explain?

... this has me worried a little. I think an outed doctor will die as soon as one scum team has the upper hand. If it's two scum A/one scum B/town, scum B won't shoot the doctor, they need to hit scum A. Scum A can safely shoot the doctor, and that's good for them, because they don't want a reduced lynch pool at this point (and they don't have much incentive to shoot scum B because that would mean one NK less and thus a longer game).

I'm not so sure anymore that this doctor claim is really a good idea.

Understood, thanks.  I don't know that I agree - at least in the mafiascum games a claimed Doctor seemed to live until one scumteam was wholly eradicated - but I get where you're coming from.

Also, having reread, I think I understand faust's non-RVS reason for voting Robz.  As he said, it's an "ongoing game"-related reason and so not one that can or should be discussed.  I also disagree with it - but I can see why town!faust would think it.

Unvote

[2.71828.....]

On a side note concerning NHS, from the NHS profile page:

Posts: 1 (0.091 per day)
Respect: +1
Gender: MaleAge:15
Location:Utah
Date Registered: October 25, 2013, 02:32:44 pm
Local Time:November 06, 2013, 08:27:23 am
Last Active: November 05, 2013, 12:05:36 am

That last bit has me worried a little.  4 hours after D1 start, then 32 hours (and counting) of being absent