Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Robz888]

How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?

You ask a lot of questions.  Any answers to offer up?

Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt.  FYI.

I always ask a lot of questions.  And I think they're important questions to consider.  I'm trying to work through them myself.

I think town!Voltgloss makes more statements of opinion, though.

I think town!Voltgloss asks a lot of questions.

[Voltgloss]

How much is the IC worth when there's literally only one of them in a sea of 13 players?

You ask a lot of questions.  Any answers to offer up?

Also, I think scum!Volt does that way more than town!Volt.  FYI.

I always ask a lot of questions.  And I think they're important questions to consider.  I'm trying to work through them myself.

I think town!Voltgloss makes more statements of opinion, though.

There will be no shortage of opinions once my questions are answered.

[Voltgloss]

Has anyone, perchance, looked at the mafiascum plays of this setup to see how they handled the Doctor claiming/not claiming?  And how that worked out for them?  I haven't had time, but I know multiple games are linked in the wiki entry for Fire and Ice.

reading those games is horrible. Like headache inducing horrible...

the one game I just glanced through (town win) didn't discuss it. One player seems to have been very against it and the town doc was killed night3 (having a successful protection night2). ice and fire shot each other to give town the win...

Which game was that?  The last one listed?

[yuma]

And just went through another game where they were very vocal about doc not claiming and one of the mafia one. Not saying that it was caused by that, but it appears that no claiming seems to be the norm that they arrived at in the two games I looked at, but it appeared to be based off the status quo that claiming was bad as they didn't really delve into whether it was good or bad the way we have.

PS: I looked at the two most recent games.

[Voltgloss]

And just went through another game where they were very vocal about doc not claiming and one of the mafia one. Not saying that it was caused by that, but it appears that no claiming seems to be the norm that they arrived at in the two games I looked at, but it appeared to be based off the status quo that claiming was bad as they didn't really delve into whether it was good or bad the way we have.

PS: I looked at the two most recent games.

I just looked through the game you mention here (Open 476).  Town lynched Ice mafia on Day 1; the Doctor stopped a kill Night 1; the Doctor claimed Day 2; town lynched the other Ice mafia Day 2; the Doctor, of course, died Night 2; town lynched Fire Mafia Day 3... and then kept on mislynching until the last Fire Mafia won.

I do note that one of the most vocal opponents to the idea of the Doctor claiming was one of the Ice mafia goons.  And then after the Doctor claimed on Day 2, that opponent was lynched (and flipped scum) that same day.

[Voltgloss]

Open 434 is kinda hilarious.  The game opened with a player claiming VT.  He was scum, and was the last person alive, winning the game.

[Voltgloss]

Open 434 is kinda hilarious.  The game opened with a player claiming VT.  He was scum, and was the last person alive, winning the game.

Also, that player's scumpartner got pushed to claim on Day 1, and fakeclaimed Doc.  He was lynched Day 2.  I haven't gone through everything yet, but I'm assuming the real Doc counterclaimed him then.  (As the real Doc died as soon as the opposing scumteam was annihilated.)

[sudgy]

PPE: Yuma explained it too. Yeah, we've lynched PRs D1 before (never in a game where I was town though I believe). That's ridiculous and should never happen unless scum fakeclaims. If it happens today I will be very disappointed. There's just no excuse for that happening.

And yet it does.  Doctors were the D1 lynch of choice for quite awhile, actually.  Plenty of reasons it can happen, too.

Doctor's not around to claim.  Scum quickhammer.  Town derphammer.  Doctor refuses to claim.  Etc.  Etc.

I, for one, do not want to waste my time suspecting people who I don't have to suspect.  You know how awesome it is to spend four IRL days working up a wagon on someone just to get to L-1 and have them claim Doctor without a counterclaim, and the have to scramble to find someone else to lynch so we don't deadline out?  ABSOLUTELY NOT AWESOME is how much.

vote: liopoil for anti-town play.  Not particularly scummier than others at this point, but anti-town is a better lynch than pro-town.

The other option is run everyone up to L-1 as quickly as possible to get this out of the way.

While I agree with almost everything you're saying, I wouldn't vote lio just for that.

Also, I am in huge favor of the doc claiming.

I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...

[Voltgloss]

So bizarre.  Open 309 had the unclaimed Doctor die Night 1 to a random scumkill (while protecting the other scumteam's kill).  Why so bizarre?  Because that's one of the few games Town went on to win.

[Voltgloss]

I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...

1.  Why do you think this?
2.  Why did you say it?

[ashersky]

Every time I've tried to read a game at mafiascum, my head has exploded and I've had to spent time with a wetvac sucking up skull fragments and brain goop into a container which I send to a doctor to reconstruct.

Even the colors and such are terrible there.

[Voltgloss]

Open 256 is interesting.  Doctor claimed Day 4, after five VT's and an Ice Goon had died.  Town lynched Fire Goons back-to-back and the Doctor died thereafter, whereupon town lynched the last Ice Goon for the win. 

One player who was VT pushed at the start of Day 3 for the Doctor to claim.  Most players disagreed, including three of the four scum. 

The Doctor didn't actually stop any nightkills over the course of the game.  Well, one night he would have - except both scumteams targeted the same person he targeted, cancelling each other out anyway.

[Voltgloss]

Open 321 has two town players fakeclaiming scum.

[Voltgloss]

OK, I've had all I can take of mafiascum for a while. 

The one consistent thing I've gleaned from there is that a claimed Doc is generally a Doc who lives until one scumteam is dead. 

[2.71828.....]

I realized, we can rule out all people saying the doc claiming is good of being the doc...

By my count we have ashersky, robz, voltaire, sudgy, gveoniz (one post saying he was good with it, but has only posted twice the entire time), eevee, and yuma all say yes to doctor claiming now.
liopoil and archetype are the two people who would prefer a D2 (or past) claim.
I haven't seen a strong post from Voltgloss or faust calling for a certain direction, the camp that I am currently in.
NHS we haven't heard from since he claimed Utah

So that totals to 7 for claiming now, 2 against, 3 undecided, and 1 missing opinion.

If I misrepresented you, I am sorry, you will just have to post (Gveoniz and NHS especially) and make the correction.

[yuma]

I think it is worth noting that for many of us (myself included) just saying we are in favor of the doc claiming right now doesn't mean that one of us would actually claim as doc.

I think most of us are experienced enough that you just don't jump into a rash decision like that. If I am the doc, I wait for a bit, look at all the angles, see what everyone has to say about the subject and then decide what I am going to do, regardless of my current opinion.

So am I the Doc? You don't know and I am not saying atm. I might be. My saying that I am in favor of the doc claiming and having not claimed doesn't imply anything. Maybe some think that it should, but for people who have played a few mafia games, this should be pretty basic behavior I think....

[2.71828.....]

This is what I so far for the post count:

Voltaire Robz888 liopoil Archetype ashersky sudgy Yuma Voltgloss 2.71828..... faust Gveoniz Eevee NHSederholm

13 13 7 4 36 5 23 31 15 7 2 9 1

For the visual learners:


noob side note:  Is a simple way to keep track of this?  I feel certain that there is, I just haven't used it.  I have been keeping track as I go (so there is a very small margin of error here), which helps me insure that I read the posts and don't miss anything

[yuma]

noob side note:  Is a simple way to keep track of this?  I feel certain that there is, I just haven't used it.  I have been keeping track as I go (so there is a very small margin of error here), which helps me insure that I read the posts and don't miss anything

I usually hit the "All" pages button toward the top of the thread and do a search "Goko username: XXXX" with XXXX being the player's goko username, if they have one. If they don't have one you can do a print screen and search "post by: XXXX". From there you can subtract the pre-game posts that voltaire mentioned earlier.

[2.71828.....]

My thoughts on doc-claiming:
1.  It mathematically decreases the size of the lynch pool from 13 people to 12 people for day one.  Sure we have one less person to worry about D1, but I don't see that as a huge reason for doc claiming.
2.  Just because you are in favor of doctor claiming (and haven't claimed yet) does not mean you are not the doctor.  Claiming within the first 36 hours would be fast when you have all week.  Granted, doing much over the weekend is tough, but there is plenty of time for a sufficiently early D1 doctor claim within the next 24-48 hours. 
3.  If someone claims, I think we all can agree that it is best NOT to be in a L-1 situation.
4.  Losing the doctor in later rounds doesn't sound as terrible as it used to

If the Doctor is NK'ed because we've eliminated a scum team, that'll be sad and all, but WE ELIMINATED A SCUM TEAM.  And that's awesome.

5.  I posted earlier that Doctor claiming was a matter of short-term vs long-term benefits.  However, I am beginning to change my mind.

If the doc claims now we are guaranteed a short term gain. A decreased lynch pool today and an IC point of view guaranteed for at least day1 and probably longer.

Whereas the long term is a gamble because we might not get any benefit from it if the doc waits to claim or doesn't claim.

So it isn't just short term vs long term. It is guaranteed benefits opposed to potential benefits.

This makes a lot of sense to me.  A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.  Now I still think that the chances an unclaimed doctor is killed N1 are slim, the arguments for N1 survival of a claimed doctor are persuasive.

6.  As far as the whole IC debate goes, I don't have much to say there.  Robz admitted earlier that his view of the usefulness of an IC has developed over time, maybe I just need some time for that view of things to develop.  I see some advantages of an IC, but don't think it is that big a deal.

7.  I really see doctor claiming as big step in the progression of this game

Thinking through all these things as well as some of the other stuff mentioned, I am persuaded in favor of the doctor claiming D1.  I am not as rushed to get this done in the next 5 minutes, but in 24 hours it would be useful to see a doctor claim so we can get down to business and get a lynching done.

This also means I have been convinced of Robz opinion on the matter, and have no more grounds for my current vote.  Unvote

[ashersky]

noob side note:  Is a simple way to keep track of this?  I feel certain that there is, I just haven't used it.  I have been keeping track as I go (so there is a very small margin of error here), which helps me insure that I read the posts and don't miss anything

I usually hit the "All" pages button toward the top of the thread and do a search "Goko username: XXXX" with XXXX being the player's goko username, if they have one. If they don't have one you can do a print screen and search "post by: XXXX". From there you can subtract the pre-game posts that voltaire mentioned earlier.

My modus operandi for post counts is thus:

1)  Click the "Print" button to bring up all posts in one big page that is printer-friendly
2)  Ctrl-F
3)  Type "Post by: username"
4)  Record the number in the Find box.

Using "post by: username" gets around the iso/goko username issue, as there is always only one instance of "post by: username" in each post.

Except, of course, now in this game, since I just typed it multiple times here.  So don't do a search for "username" because it'll be messed up.

[Voltaire]

Let's do this thing.



I'll see you all tomorrow. I'll ragevote anyone who says they're waiting for me to lead everyone (Voltgloss, I totally get it now).

[ashersky]

Any counterclaims?

[Robz888]

Well, that's fortunate. It's generally much better to have vets as ICs, IMO.

[Robz888]

I'll ragevote anyone who says they're waiting for me to lead everyone (Voltgloss, I totally get it now).

Oh, don't even pretend you don't love it. You and your lists where you gradually eliminate people. Hope your reads don't fail you now!

[Robz888]

I'm around and desperate to avoid doing work. Anything to discuss...?