SA reread:
D1
SA half joking about scumreading anyone who suspects Jake for meta reasons:
11 pages into M88. I can't wait to see Jake in action in this game.
He's very young, and actively improving. I'm going to scumread anyone who goes out of the way to rile him up based on his early games. Set a good example rather than digging for old dirt :-)
A small back and forth with pps. pps puts forth the idea that SA could be scum trying to "nix my town vibe". Not exactly sure what he means by this.
In all seriousness, I think you voting yourself is a pretty null PPS-ish thing to do, so I'm not going to get my logic in a twist over it.
Maybe, because you are relatively new. Or maybe you're scum trying to nix my town vibe because the truth is that scum!PPS would never claim to be scum on D1.
I don't see town narrative for intentionally attenuating anther's attempts at generating a town signal. It's really all town can do at this stage of the game.
It's really all town can do at this stage of the game.
You mean other than scum-hunting, discussing how to make the setups work to our advantage, seeing how people react to each other's opinions and all that sort of stuff? I also don't see why anyone should interpret you voting for yourself as such a grand townie gesture in the first place.
You still haven't said what you think of the setup, incidentally!
Is somewhat skeptical about lynching pps at that moment, or maybe just asking questions to see what Jake says:
You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.
we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.
How much information do you think PPS's flip will give us now, compared to letting D1 run its course more completely and generating a bunch more interactions between players who may or may not then get flipped later?
How likely do you think it is that he'll flip scum if someone hammers now?
Says it's "attractive" for scum to be on wagon and that's why they're asking questions rather than pushing the wagon hard at that moment:
Why are people characterising me as not supporting the wagon and being hedgey? I know I've been asking questions of others on the wagon, but that's because I think it's probably attractive for scum to want to be on-wagon by now, and I want to probe people's motives.
D2
Asks if we're doing Gkrieg's idea or not, but doesn't actually state an opinion one way or another:
RIP, PPS & LL :-(
Is the plan for everyone to claim rolecop results as gkreig had suggested? And if so, are there merits to extending it to the other possible role results too?
Quibbles about why Joseph is or isn't scummy and then goes on to question Joseph's scumread as if that's a reason to find Joseph scummy.
In fact,
Vote: Joseph
for not paying attention to the setup discussion early D1. Scum knows the setup already, they have no interest in setup discussion.
I feel like Joseph is scummy more because he was so terribly fluffy all through D1, rather than just for ignoring the set-up discussion. I think the only serious thing he did at all was vote for PPS.
Well, he did say that I'm his second-top scumread after PPS, but even that fails to hold together: if he thought PPS and I were scum, why on earth would I be sitting on PPS's wagon right to the end? That would have been some really ultra-serious early-game bussing, if he really thought we could be a scum team.
Says it's "funny" how Joseph finds them scummy for seeing the pps wagon through and Robz was "hinting" that they were being hesitant about the wagon:
Because scum do do that.
Vote for their scum partner early, just stay on the wagon and hope to get some town cred for it.
Okay, it's funny because you're accusing me of being scummy for seeing the wagon through, and Robz has been hinting that he thinks I was too hesitant, though nobody is backing up exactly why that's the case. It's a bit of a no-win scenario. I mean, fair enough, it's a non-win because we lynched a VT, but honestly, I thought thought there was a good chance he was scum.
Finds Robz scummy for not participating the in "claims":
I feel like Robz is being really scummy for being so uncooperative and not acting according to the consensus of the town, which is clearly to go through with the claiming exercise. I'm not sure whether that's just frustration at the fact he's going against what most of us agreed, or just that he's being a bit rude about it by describing the plan as "silly", but it makes me feel very bad about him!
Since 5/7 of us had already posted results before he raised any objection to the plan, even though it was first proposed early in D1, I think he's at best unhelpfully disengaged from the game, and at worst he's scum trying to play us to get extra information without saying anything he might possibly be caught out in a lie with, since obviously this makes it really hard for scum to fake-claim later on.
A quick jab at Joseph:
Jake is in this game?
Yeah, and he's made more posts and been more involved in actual game-play than you have!
SA arguing with Dylan about how to "claim" results and Robz's assertion that it's a silly exercise. SA disagrees with Dylan about intentionally creating "interesting" results and disagrees with Robz about it being pointless.
In the interest of actually protecting PR identities, other people need to actually post results that are more than "vanilla" "saw nothing/no result" so in the event someone actually gets a non-vanilla/saw-nothing result, they aren't the only ones sticking out and basically revealing themselves. If everyone does the same thing except the actual PR, this is a self-defeating exercise. I know the plain results are the most likely outcomes, but we do need variety in our claims I would think.
If I were a rolecop, I would have targeted Joseph and gotten jailkeeper.
If I were a tracker, I would have targeted gkrieg and seen him target SA.
If I were a watcher, I would have targeted Robz and seen Jake target him.
Which is why this is a silly exercise and I'm not participating in it.
So I read my post to try to figure out what part of what I said could be used as a justification for not participating period rather than just going along with it, but I don't see it.
My take on it is that he's agreeing with you that it's risky to town if all the players don't actively play along, because we risk outing our PRs. This is true to a small degree, but I think the chance of preserving PR information and the fact that this makes brazen fake-claiming hard for scum to manufacture in the late game are both arguments in favour of going ahead with the exercise in general.
I've also thought of a new argument in favour of your point, actually. Scum has a slight incentive to try to kill off PRs with "interesting" results that don't incriminate them, because flipping those people could give them actual information about other non-scum players. I think it's worth mentioning because several of our possible game scenarios have a doctor present, and I'd like to know that they're potentially aware of this.
SA responds to why I found them scummy for their pps vote, saying they get scumread for being cautious, so they're being cautious about being cautious so as not to seem like they're being cautious:
Out of all of these I find SA's and Joseph's votes to be the scummiest. SA's vote was RVS and they never even commented on pps's "claim" besides joking about it as a reason to join his wagon. So SA pretty much voted randomly, encouraged more random votes, and then just went along with the wagon because hey, as long as they're town it's totally cool if they get lynched right?
What was actually on my mind during the long period in which I didn't unvote was that I get scum-read all the time for being cautious. Take a look at the opening of Stranger Things (RMM 40), where I got scum-read particularly for unvoting on an early-game PPS wagon!
I think PPS is a very strong scum player. He was my buddy in the first of my scum games, so he's kind of the uberscum to me. And while my RVS vote on him was random in the sense of me having no in-game info to base the vote on, my choice of person was based on the fact that I see him as dangerous. When it looked like he was WIFOMing at us in a way I found hard to read, and definitely not conf!towny, seeing the wagon through seemed like totally reasonable play from my point of view.
So in this instance, he flipped town, which is disappointing. I agree that it's even possible it was a wagon comprised mostly of town. However, I feel like Joseph's vote on it was pretty scummy, and I really don't feel good about Robz's play at all.
SA's case on Robz in which they say they find Robz scummy because he finds SA scummy and SA thinks his case isn't based on anything. Looks to me like OMGUS:
So here's a bit more on why I find Robz scummy. He's clearly not been reading the game very much, which is sort of fine, given that he's got a sort-of-VLA in force. But he's still pushing the idea that I'm scummy, based off of pretty much nothing at all, and that is not good.
Robz at #249:
So Space is simultaneously voting for PPS but also scared about PPS actually getting lynched. Scummy.
No context was given for his statement, but I think he's referring to my questioning of Jake here:
You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.
we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.
How much information do you think PPS's flip will give us now, compared to letting D1 run its course more completely and generating a bunch more interactions between players who may or may not then get flipped later?
-- is Robz misundertanding the purpose of the questions I'd set out for Jake? Jake was putting forward some clearly-questionable reasoning. Scum!Jake could think that asserting a wish to be out of D1 would be generally supported by town players who find game openings difficult (I'm one of them), but town players should agree that getting further information from player interactions was valuable, to give us some context in which to analyse the flip.
The only other post of mine I can see Robz having meant was this one:
I will hammer at 12:00 forum time. If anyone has any objections please state before then.
I'd usually prefer for more discussion but i dislike D1 so I will hammer.
I'd like to hear what answer Robz gives to the question you asked about whether he was aware it was L-1 already, so I'd prefer you didn't hammer before he responds. No need to let him off the hook too easily.
Again, it's an interaction between me and Jake where I'm just working to curb Jake's overenthusiasm for a premature end of D1 without letting us hear from all the people involved. In this case, Robz had come in and put PPS at an unannounced L-1, and it's far from scummy of me to want to make sure he's forced to explain himself!
Then there's me at #274, near the end of D1:
Why are people characterising me as not supporting the wagon and being hedgey? I know I've been asking questions of others on the wagon, but that's because I think it's probably attractive for scum to want to be on-wagon by now, and I want to probe people's motives.
I mean, the fact I was trying to ask questions to extract useful responses from players should be obvious for anyone reading my posts! However, I can absolutely see scum!Robz, who's used to me being more selfconsciously hedgey in other games, trying to use my previous play style to score quick points.
This was followed early D2 by Robz at #290, still scum-reading me, now for "naysaying":
I'm still not a huge fan of SA's naysaying. Vote: Space
I quoted my #274 post again at #297 because Robz totally ignored it. He's still ignoring it, or refusing to engage.
Vote: Robz
SA responding to my vote on them by saying Joseph didn't actually scumread LL later in D1 and so it wouldn't be surprising if he NKed LL.
Vote: LaLight
She's a bit scummy
This was before his pps vote obviously. Would Joseph NK LL after supposedly scumreading him?
Vote: SA
The post you're quoting is #155, which is early. Joseph later said at #254 (which is like twice as far into the game, given that the first game post was #53) that PPS and I were his top scumreads. I already explained my issue with how much logic-twisting Joseph must've had to do for that to make sense back at #301, but that's not relevant just here.
Anyway, combine that with the fact that LL had been townslipping to various degrees, and that several people had declared a town read on him (gkrieg@#131, Robz@#145), I think he's not that weird an NK even for a scum-team containing Joseph. After all, there are presumably two scums directing things in their QT, so the NK decision wouldn't be made by Josef in isolation anyway.
A kind of reads list from SA. Says Joseph isn't engaged, has questions for Robz when he comes back, and says Dylan is "making the most sense out of any of you lot". They also make a big deal (bold!) about me putting him to L-1 and leaving my vote there:
People, this game is sloooooow!
Let's take a look at the player list:
pingpongsam -- lynched. He has excuses for being quiet. Or for ranting at us all in the speccy.
Joseph2302 -- Is now missing long enough to be prodable, and was barely engaged earlier anyway.
JaketheBaseballGod22 -- Uncharacteristically quiet, which didn't actually imply good things in ZM23 (though I'd welcome it if this is a turn of events in which town!Jake is equally able to play maturely now).
Robz888 -- Appears to be genuinely VLA, but certainly has issues to account for when he's back.
Dylan32 -- Seems to be talking the most sense out of any of you lot.
gkrieg13 -- has promised some extra explaining later.
LaLight -- NKd. Several people did the "wow, weird kill" dance, but our vets were townreading him D1, so how weird is it really?
SpaceAnemone -- Spaaaaaaace :-)
AndrewisFTTW -- His posting history shows he's active elsewhere, but is choosing not to respond to me and to leave his unannounced L-1 vote on me.
Joseph and SA agree that there must be one scum on pps's wagon. Since Jake and Gkrieg are cleared that means it's down to one of them, I'm curious how they feel about this now.
So the mislynchers were Space, me, Robz, Jake & gkrieg
There's 2 scum in the game, I assume at least 1 of the scum is in that list
PPE: 5?
So you are just saying that you don't think the team is Andrew/Dylan.
Heh.. that's exactly what I was thinking. LL being off-wagon and town is possibly another reason he made a good night target, actually -- if we actually have two scums on-wagon, they'll need to be careful about allowing PoE on there.
SA gets defensive. Clearly they don't like being at L-1 and specifically targets me for putting them to L-1 and not unvoting:
ummmm just because your not "the biggest scum threat in this game right now" (not sure about this) doesn't mean your not scum.
I'm the person who's one vote away from being lynched right now, thanks specifically to Andrew. He can just about get away with putting me to an unannounced L-1 by claiming this is his careless laid-back game-play and he didn't realise. However leaving me there now that he's admitted he's fully aware that it's L-1, is not good play for town at all unless he actually thinks I'm really a threat. OTOH, if he's scum waiting for a derphammer, it makes much more sense.
Also, I think gkreig's point about your retort not coming from a very towny-seeming place is also accurate.
SA tries to discredit their wagon, saying it's "nonsense" and "unfounded":
Oh please, don't be so dramatic. Just because you're at L-1 doesn't guarantee you're going to be lynched although maybe you're regretting the way you guys stumbled into pps's lynch yesterday now, huh? Me leaving my vote on you is neither scummy nor anti-town and it's pretty revealing how defensive you are and how worried you are that you might be lynched.
Nope, this is me behaving how I think town should behave when there's a nonsense unfounded wagon on them: pointing out errors in bad reasoning coming from scummy people!
Announces VLA until after deadline. Finally puts a vote down on Joseph. Interesting that Dylan said the same thing about voting for Robz: that voting for him isn't useful because he's VLA.
I'm about to be VLA till after the deadline.
My vote on Robz isn't useful because he's still VLA himself. I'll vote: Joseph now. I hope to be on at least by phone from the place I'm going, but I'm really not sure how the data coverage will be...
SA using the "I'm an easy mislynch" defense:
If you were to say "this is usually how I react to wagons regardless of alignment" I would be more inclined to believe you, especially if someone backed you up.
Well, gkrieg could probably tell you about how I make for an easy mislynch target :- P
PPE several because my signal is already getting patchy and we're still not there yet...
SA puts FoS on me all of a sudden:
Where did Andrew go in all this Robz-or-Jake reasoning?
@Dylan and gkrieg, are you both towreading Andrew?
SA telling Gkrieg and Dylan that they would be down to lynch Jake or Robz, no mention of Joseph.
@Jake: I am not a he!!!
Also @Jake: my early case on Robz had a lot more to it than just not being happy about him refusing to involve himself in the claiming exercise. For instance, he kept accusing me of being against/hesitant on the PPS wagon (!), and ignored at least two requests by me to back up his position with examples -- and that was before he disappeared entirely from the game.
@Andrew: I did say several things about set-up earlier in the game, and nobody joined in a conversation. I can't throw setup ideas back and forth all by myself (well, not with much success or any rapid successions of new insights), though.
@gkrieg & @Dylan: if you two both feel like Jake and Robz are the lynch pool for today, I'm willing to vote either one, though I'd readout like to see Robz back in the game first!!
Joseph votes for Dylan and SA says Dylan is off the table because of it. They're still hesitant to vote Robz because of VLA so they switch to Jake:
Ha, no way am I supporting a Dylan lynch just now.
vote: Jake to see whether there's traction there, since I'm still hesitant to push Robz in absentia.
Though with this little engagement in a game that's shaping up to be pretty shots so far, I do think replacement is an option Robz and schadd could maybe consider...
SA says they were scumreading me because I put them to L-1 and then "left" them there, a.k.a. didn't unvote.
And everyone goes silent.
Do you want to put forward a case on Andrew maybe? When I was scum-reading him earlier, neither you nor Dylan seemed that interested, which worries me slightly.
He was null to me earlier, and now I'm trying to avoid just giving in to OMGUS. Do you remember where your case was? I'll go back and read it.
Going back is more sensible... no way can I quote a bunch of useful things in one post from my phone just now.
He was mostly scum-reading me for behaving in what I believed was a totally justified townie way and being super careless about leaving me at L-1.
How long now till deadline? Am about to be offline for a while unless it's really soon, if signal is even cooperating...
SA disappears for a while and then comes back after the Dylan wagon gets going. These are their last posts before Dylan was lynched:
Archive.. here for ~10 mins. I'm willing to follow the claimed PRs of they agree on a lynch.. is Dylan a go?
Anyone wanna counterclaim gkrieg?
I'm a VT so it checks out for me. Though vanilla is also the safest claim for someone who doesn't know things anyway, so that evidence is only weak.
I think my "archive" = "argh" correction may just have been eaten by my signal trouble :-(
Can someone tell me who is voting Dylan?
So basically SA pushes Joseph for a while, Robz for a minute, unvotes Dylan once their "scumread" Joseph votes for Dylan, and then briefly shows up near deadline and doesn't put down a vote on Dylan despite saying they're ok with it and despite Dylan only being at L-2 I think. They later said their data cut out and they were really only around for about 5 minutes, but they could've put down a vote instead of asking if Dylan is a go or asking who is voting for Dylan. So Dylan and SA "townread" eachother for the first two days and SA didn't put a vote on his wagon and is the only person alive besides Gkrieg to be off wagon. Would scum partners really townread eachother for the whole game and would SA not immediately bus their partner when he was in trouble? There's obviously a good deal of WIFOM but personally I think if they were partners one townread is fine, but the other person would have a null or even slightly scummy read on their partner, right? I mean it just doesn't seem to me like partners townreading eachother the whole game would ever be viable. I found SA scummy D1 and early D2 for their vote on pps and the content they posted but this is more solid I think.
I'll check out Robz too but there's probably not much to go on. I'll do it later today.