Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dylan32]

I could actually see Jake as scum here.

Why? He has been significantly quieter than normal I guess, but is that enough of a difference to be scummy for him?

[Joseph2302]

Vote Count 2.1


SpaceAnemone (1): Robz888
Joseph2302 (1): AndrewisFTTW

not voting (5): Joseph2302, JaketheBaseballGod22, Dylan32, gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone


With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 2 ends Saturday, April 1st at 6pm forum time.

I thought I was voting Space, apparently not....

[Joseph2302]

I could actually see Jake as scum here.

Why? He has been significantly quieter than normal I guess, but is that enough of a difference to be scummy for him?

Jake is in this game?
When did Jake start playing quietly?

[SpaceAnemone]

Jake is in this game?

Yeah, and he's made more posts and been more involved in actual game-play than you have!

[Joseph2302]

Jake is in this game?

Yeah, and he's made more posts and been more involved in actual game-play than you have!

So has just about everyone.
I've had a lot more IRL stuff than I anticipated.
I should get round to this game tomorrow

[SpaceAnemone]

I should get round to this game tomorrow

I'm going to be VLA from Thursday morning till mid-afternoon (UK time) on Sunday. I think this might be a proper no-internet-access VLA, because the place I'm going appears to have only paid wifi access and very spotty reception on my mobile provider's coverage map :-( I'll try to read along when possible, but I find phone posting to be very fiddly even when there's reliable signal. (When the signal is unreliable, there's even less incentive to struggle through the composition of words on the screen in case the ether eats them all).

[SpaceAnemone]

In the interest of actually protecting PR identities, other people need to actually post results that are more than "vanilla" "saw nothing/no result" so in the event someone actually gets a non-vanilla/saw-nothing result, they aren't the only ones sticking out and basically revealing themselves. If everyone does the same thing except the actual PR, this is a self-defeating exercise. I know the plain results are the most likely outcomes, but we do need variety in our claims I would think.

If I were a rolecop, I would have targeted Joseph and gotten jailkeeper.
If I were a tracker, I would have targeted gkrieg and seen him target SA.
If I were a watcher, I would have targeted Robz and seen Jake target him.

Which is why this is a silly exercise and I'm not participating in it.

So I read my post to try to figure out what part of what I said could be used as a justification for not participating period rather than just going along with it, but I don't see it.

My take on it is that he's agreeing with you that it's risky to town if all the players don't actively play along, because we risk outing our PRs. This is true to a small degree, but I think the chance of preserving PR information and the fact that this makes brazen fake-claiming hard for scum to manufacture in the late game are both arguments in favour of going ahead with the exercise in general.

I've also thought of a new argument in favour of your point, actually. Scum has a slight incentive to try to kill off PRs with "interesting" results that don't incriminate them, because flipping those people could give them actual information about other non-scum players. I think it's worth mentioning because several of our possible game scenarios have a doctor present, and I'd like to know that they're potentially aware of this.

[SpaceAnemone]

Out of all of these I find SA's and Joseph's votes to be the scummiest. SA's vote was RVS and they never even commented on pps's "claim" besides joking about it as a reason to join his wagon. So SA pretty much voted randomly, encouraged more random votes, and then just went along with the wagon because hey, as long as they're town it's totally cool if they get lynched right?

What was actually on my mind during the long period in which I didn't unvote was that I get scum-read all the time for being cautious. Take a look at the opening of Stranger Things (RMM 40), where I got scum-read particularly for unvoting on an early-game PPS wagon!

I think PPS is a very strong scum player. He was my buddy in the first of my scum games, so he's kind of the uberscum to me. And while my RVS vote on him was random in the sense of me having no in-game info to base the vote on, my choice of person was based on the fact that I see him as dangerous. When it looked like he was WIFOMing at us in a way I found hard to read, and definitely not conf!towny, seeing the wagon through seemed like totally reasonable play from my point of view.

So in this instance, he flipped town, which is disappointing. I agree that it's even possible it was a wagon comprised mostly of town. However, I feel like Joseph's vote on it was pretty scummy, and I really don't feel good about Robz's play at all.

[SpaceAnemone]

So here's a bit more on why I find Robz scummy. He's clearly not been reading the game very much, which is sort of fine, given that he's got a sort-of-VLA in force. But he's still pushing the idea that I'm scummy, based off of pretty much nothing at all, and that is not good.

Robz at #249:

So Space is simultaneously voting for PPS but also scared about PPS actually getting lynched. Scummy.

No context was given for his statement, but I think he's referring to my questioning of Jake here:

You guys really want to hammer right this second? This game has been going for like 2 days.

we should just get D1 out of the way asap and if PPS wants to volunteer to end it then he can go ahead and do it.

How much information do you think PPS's flip will give us now, compared to letting D1 run its course more completely and generating a bunch more interactions between players who may or may not then get flipped later?

-- is Robz misundertanding the purpose of the questions I'd set out for Jake? Jake was putting forward some clearly-questionable reasoning. Scum!Jake could think that asserting a wish to be out of D1 would be generally supported by town players who find game openings difficult (I'm one of them), but town players should agree that getting further information from player interactions was valuable, to give us some context in which to analyse the flip.

The only other post of mine I can see Robz having meant was this one:

I will hammer at 12:00 forum time. If anyone has any objections please state before then.

I'd usually prefer for more discussion but i dislike D1 so I will hammer.

I'd like to hear what answer Robz gives to the question you asked about whether he was aware it was L-1 already, so I'd prefer you didn't hammer before he responds. No need to let him off the hook too easily.

Again, it's an interaction between me and Jake where I'm just working to curb Jake's overenthusiasm for a premature end of D1 without letting us hear from all the people involved. In this case, Robz had come in and put PPS at an unannounced L-1, and it's far from scummy of me to want to make sure he's forced to explain himself!

Then there's me at #274, near the end of D1:

Why are people characterising me as not supporting the wagon and being hedgey? I know I've been asking questions of others on the wagon, but that's because I think it's probably attractive for scum to want to be on-wagon by now, and I want to probe people's motives.

I mean, the fact I was trying to ask questions to extract useful responses from players should be obvious for anyone reading my posts! However, I can absolutely see scum!Robz, who's used to me being more selfconsciously hedgey in other games, trying to use my previous play style to score quick points.

This was followed early D2 by Robz at #290, still scum-reading me, now for "naysaying":

I'm still not a huge fan of SA's naysaying. Vote: Space

I quoted my #274 post again at #297 because Robz totally ignored it. He's still ignoring it, or refusing to engage.

Vote: Robz

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote: LaLight
She's a bit scummy

This was before his pps vote obviously. Would Joseph NK LL after supposedly scumreading him?

Vote: SA

The post you're quoting is #155, which is early. Joseph later said at #254 (which is like twice as far into the game, given that the first game post was #53) that PPS and I were his top scumreads. I already explained my issue with how much logic-twisting Joseph must've had to do for that to make sense back at #301, but that's not relevant just here.

Anyway, combine that with the fact that LL had been townslipping to various degrees, and that several people had declared a town read on him (gkrieg@#131, Robz@#145), I think he's not that weird an NK even for a scum-team containing Joseph. After all, there are presumably two scums directing things in their QT, so the NK decision wouldn't be made by Josef in isolation anyway.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh, and the reason I'm going back to Andrew's content now is that he's been posting fluffy stuff elsewhere on the forum, so he's clearly around but not commenting on or reacting to any of the other issues I've been raising about this game today. And I'm getting frustrated because nobody is technically eligible for a prod request :-P

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh, and the reason I'm going back to Andrew's content now is that he's been posting fluffy stuff elsewhere on the forum, so he's clearly around but not commenting on or reacting to any of the other issues I've been raising about this game today. And I'm getting frustrated because nobody is technically eligible for a prod request :-P

I've skimmed what you've written but haven't been motivated to get into this yet today. I'll check it out after lunch. K bai!

[Dylan32]

vote: Robz. Space for president.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I've also thought of a new argument in favour of your point, actually. Scum has a slight incentive to try to kill off PRs with "interesting" results that don't incriminate them, because flipping those people could give them actual information about other non-scum players. I think it's worth mentioning because several of our possible game scenarios have a doctor present, and I'd like to know that they're potentially aware of this.

I'm kinda confused by this. Killing people with "interesting" but non-incriminating results give information about town players? Can you explain what you mean by this?

Out of all of these I find SA's and Joseph's votes to be the scummiest. SA's vote was RVS and they never even commented on pps's "claim" besides joking about it as a reason to join his wagon. So SA pretty much voted randomly, encouraged more random votes, and then just went along with the wagon because hey, as long as they're town it's totally cool if they get lynched right?

What was actually on my mind during the long period in which I didn't unvote was that I get scum-read all the time for being cautious. Take a look at the opening of Stranger Things (RMM 40), where I got scum-read particularly for unvoting on an early-game PPS wagon!

I think PPS is a very strong scum player. He was my buddy in the first of my scum games, so he's kind of the uberscum to me. And while my RVS vote on him was random in the sense of me having no in-game info to base the vote on, my choice of person was based on the fact that I see him as dangerous. When it looked like he was WIFOMing at us in a way I found hard to read, and definitely not conf!towny, seeing the wagon through seemed like totally reasonable play from my point of view.

So in this instance, he flipped town, which is disappointing. I agree that it's even possible it was a wagon comprised mostly of town. However, I feel like Joseph's vote on it was pretty scummy, and I really don't feel good about Robz's play at all.

This isn't necessarily something that makes you townier. You were previously called scummy for unvoting so now you decide not to unvote so you look towny. I get how you would see this as a lose-lose situation and I can't speak to the incident in RMM40, but what's more important? You being seen as towny? Or not lynching town? If you're scum it would obviously be the former, which is what you chose. I agree about Joseph and Robz's votes.

[SpaceAnemone]

I've also thought of a new argument in favour of your point, actually. Scum has a slight incentive to try to kill off PRs with "interesting" results that don't incriminate them, because flipping those people could give them actual information about other non-scum players. I think it's worth mentioning because several of our possible game scenarios have a doctor present, and I'd like to know that they're potentially aware of this.

I'm kinda confused by this. Killing people with "interesting" but non-incriminating results give information about town players? Can you explain what you mean by this?

Yeah, leat's take Dylan's response:

If I were a rolecop, I would have targeted Joseph and gotten jailkeeper.
If I were a tracker, I would have targeted gkrieg and seen him target SA.
If I were a watcher, I would have targeted Robz and seen Jake target him.

Now hypothesize a scum-team of Robz and Joseph. They know what version of the game we're in because each version has a different configuration of scums. So say they know we're in game 7, with a watcher and a tracker. Dylan having interesting information on offer means that he's a more interesting flip to them. If he happens to flip tracker, they know gkrieg is the watcher, and if he flips watcher, they know Jake is the tracker. If it's an Andrew-Jake scum-team and they hadn't worked this out for themselves, then I'm really sorry to town for spelling it out for them, but I don't think it's too hard to work that part out, is it?

Out of all of these I find SA's and Joseph's votes to be the scummiest. SA's vote was RVS and they never even commented on pps's "claim" besides joking about it as a reason to join his wagon. So SA pretty much voted randomly, encouraged more random votes, and then just went along with the wagon because hey, as long as they're town it's totally cool if they get lynched right?

What was actually on my mind during the long period in which I didn't unvote was that I get scum-read all the time for being cautious. Take a look at the opening of Stranger Things (RMM 40), where I got scum-read particularly for unvoting on an early-game PPS wagon!

I think PPS is a very strong scum player. He was my buddy in the first of my scum games, so he's kind of the uberscum to me. And while my RVS vote on him was random in the sense of me having no in-game info to base the vote on, my choice of person was based on the fact that I see him as dangerous. When it looked like he was WIFOMing at us in a way I found hard to read, and definitely not conf!towny, seeing the wagon through seemed like totally reasonable play from my point of view.

So in this instance, he flipped town, which is disappointing. I agree that it's even possible it was a wagon comprised mostly of town. However, I feel like Joseph's vote on it was pretty scummy, and I really don't feel good about Robz's play at all.

This isn't necessarily something that makes you townier. You were previously called scummy for unvoting so now you decide not to unvote so you look towny. I get how you would see this as a lose-lose situation and I can't speak to the incident in RMM40, but what's more important? You being seen as towny? Or not lynching town? If you're scum it would obviously be the former, which is what you chose. I agree about Joseph and Robz's votes.

Okay, so we need better terminology here. Let's use "scummy" just to mean "something indicative of a person actually being scum", and "anti-town" to mean "did something that appears not to have been in the best interests of town". I think when you called all our votes on PPS scummy, you mostly meant anti-town, yes?

Now, an action can be anti-town and still be performed by a town player, but usually what gets someone scum-read is performing an action that isn't necessarily in the best interests of town. So when I'm scum-read in one game for doing something several other players disapproved of in terms of good town play, I'm going to internalize that and try to do better in subsequent games. I can categorically state that there's nothing scummy about that progression, because I was town then and I'm town now.

At the same time, there's nothing mutually exclusive about on the one hand acting in a towny way that tries to broadcast to the other town players that I'm on their side and on the other hand trying not to lynch town. As we've seen (from the things Robz was apparently scum-reading me for!), I was asking questions of the people on PPS's wagon, and trying to get better reads on people while also being on the wagon. And PoE for a weird wagon ought to be easier to do from the inside, though right now I'm finding it hard to narrow down my scum-reads.

[gkrieg13]

vote: Jake

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

vote: Jake

Why?

[gkrieg13]

I'll do some explaining later. I think you are a talented scum player. And you are too under the radar while still dictating lots this game.

[schadd]

Vote Count 2.2

SpaceAnemone (3): Robz888, JaketheBaseballGod22, AndrewisFTTW
Robz888 (2): SpaceAnemone, Dylan32
JaketheBaseballGod22 (1): gkrieg13

not voting (1): Joseph2302


With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 2 ends Saturday, April 1st at 6pm forum time.

[SpaceAnemone]

People, this game is sloooooow!

Let's take a look at the player list:

pingpongsam -- lynched. He has excuses for being quiet. Or for ranting at us all in the speccy.
Joseph2302 -- Is now missing long enough to be prodable, and was barely engaged earlier anyway.
JaketheBaseballGod22 -- Uncharacteristically quiet, which didn't actually imply good things in ZM23 (though I'd welcome it if this is a turn of events in which town!Jake is equally able to play maturely now).
Robz888 -- Appears to be genuinely VLA, but certainly has issues to account for when he's back.
Dylan32 -- Seems to be talking the most sense out of any of you lot.
gkrieg13 -- has promised some extra explaining later.
LaLight -- NKd. Several people did the "wow, weird kill" dance, but our vets were townreading him D1, so how weird is it really?
SpaceAnemone -- Spaaaaaaace :-)
AndrewisFTTW -- His posting history shows he's active elsewhere, but is choosing not to respond to me and to leave his unannounced L-1 vote on me.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm not choosing to ignore you, I'm choosing not to obsessively check in on this game and read and respond to everything immediately like I have done before, and I'm enjoying this slower pace. Besides, I've been a little busy. I'm about to walk into a museum right now!

Oh and sorry for the unannounced L-1, I didn't notice. I keep forgetting there are only 7 of us in this game right now.

[SpaceAnemone]

Oh and sorry for the unannounced L-1, I didn't notice. I keep forgetting there are only 7 of us in this game right now.

... so you're celebrating the nice slow pace of the game as an excuse not to engage, and just to leave your vote at L-1? Like you genuinely believe I'm the biggest scum threat here right now?

And since there are only 7 of us in the game, it means people have to talk more, not less!

[Joseph2302]

People, this game is sloooooow!

Let's take a look at the player list:

pingpongsam -- lynched. He has excuses for being quiet. Or for ranting at us all in the speccy.
Joseph2302 -- Is now missing long enough to be prodable, and was barely engaged earlier anyway.
JaketheBaseballGod22 -- Uncharacteristically quiet, which didn't actually imply good things in ZM23 (though I'd welcome it if this is a turn of events in which town!Jake is equally able to play maturely now).
Robz888 -- Appears to be genuinely VLA, but certainly has issues to account for when he's back.
Dylan32 -- Seems to be talking the most sense out of any of you lot.
gkrieg13 -- has promised some extra explaining later.
LaLight -- NKd. Several people did the "wow, weird kill" dance, but our vets were townreading him D1, so how weird is it really?
SpaceAnemone -- Spaaaaaaace :-)
AndrewisFTTW -- His posting history shows he's active elsewhere, but is choosing not to respond to me and to leave his unannounced L-1 vote on me.

Tonight I will post as promised.
Literally my last week has been an absolute nightmare for time

[Joseph2302]

I've been kind of following the game, but gonna reread properly tonight

[gkrieg13]

People, this game is sloooooow!

Let's take a look at the player list:

pingpongsam -- lynched. He has excuses for being quiet. Or for ranting at us all in the speccy.
Joseph2302 -- Is now missing long enough to be prodable, and was barely engaged earlier anyway.
JaketheBaseballGod22 -- Uncharacteristically quiet, which didn't actually imply good things in ZM23 (though I'd welcome it if this is a turn of events in which town!Jake is equally able to play maturely now).
Robz888 -- Appears to be genuinely VLA, but certainly has issues to account for when he's back.
Dylan32 -- Seems to be talking the most sense out of any of you lot.
gkrieg13 -- has promised some extra explaining later.
LaLight -- NKd. Several people did the "wow, weird kill" dance, but our vets were townreading him D1, so how weird is it really?
SpaceAnemone -- Spaaaaaaace :-)
AndrewisFTTW -- His posting history shows he's active elsewhere, but is choosing not to respond to me and to leave his unannounced L-1 vote on me.

I agree that people were townreading him, but I didn't feel like he did anything overly townie D-1.  I mean, he was a solid read for me.  Thinking more about it, it might mean a couple of things.  He was probably the towniest D1, so maybe scum isn't worried about a doctor or a JK, or a watcher.  Or, on the flip side, it didn't seem like he was a PR, and in the setup with 2 goons, I think they want to keep the PRs alive.

Jake just seems like his is specifically not trying to start too many conflicts, which is why I think he is scum.  It is similar to his play in that game that he was scum and no one suspected him.