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[faust]

Welcome to MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia!

Mods: faust, EFHW

This game will be philosophy-themed, and for flavor reasons, the mafia will be referred to as Naturalists. Every player will receive a flavor name, with fake flavor claims provided for scum players. This game will use Pick Your Power X/Y/Z, a setup based on Pick Your Power X/Y that has been tweaked to add variety and make the game harder to solve. The exact setup is described in post #2.


Players:
1.   Teproc (René Descartes, Town-aligned 1-shot Watcher) killed N1
2.   XerxesPraelor (David Hume, Naturalist Goon) lynched D2
3.   yuma (Aristotle, Vanilla Townie) killed N1
4.   Robz888 (Plato, Town-aligned Night 3 Vigilante) endgamed
5.   Voltaire (Voltaire, Town-aligned Neighborizer) killed N3
6.   jotheonah (Søren Kierkegaard, Vanilla Townie) lynched D4
7.   sudgy (Confucius, 1-shot Alignment Cop) killed N4
8.   Axxle (Friedrich Nietzsche, 1-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer/Bus Driver)
9.   mail-mi (Zeno of Citium, 1-shot Lynchproof Townie) killed N3
10. theorel (Bertrand Russell, Vanilla Townie) killed N2
11.  A Drowned Kernel (Thomas Hobbes, Naturalist Jailkeeper) lynched D1
12.  AndrewisFTTW (Immanuel Kant, Vanilla Townie) lynched D3
13.  scott_pilgrim (Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Vanill Townie) endgamed
14.  mcmcsalot (Judith Butler, Vanilla Townie) lynched D5
15.  ashersky (Karl Marx, Naturalist Mafia Cop) killed N2

Spectators Tagged: Jimmmmm, chairs, shraeye, Twistedarcher
Day/Night starts:
D1 | N1
D2 | N2
D3 | N3
D4 | N4
D5

The Rules of Mafia will be used, with the following changes:

-A 'No Lynch' will occur if nobody has been lynched by deadline
-During the night, ALL alive players must send the mods some sort of a message. Failure to send such a message may result in replacement.
-Replacements will be dealt with at the mod's discretion

This game will have 10 day Day deadlines and 48 hours Night deadlines. The deadline for role bidding is 24 hours after receiving your draft number.

[faust]

Pick Your Power X/Y/Z

Basic Setup:

3 Naturalist Goons
11 Townies
1 1-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer

Mechanics:

- At the beginning of the game, there is a draft to determine the order for the bidding on roles.
- Once this has happened, each player will send in the role they'd like to be. Only one role from each "slot" will be awarded. Alternatively, each player may send in "Slot 9".
- As such, in the event multiple players select roles from the same slot, the player highest in the draft order wins the role, whilst the others remain Vanilla.
- Roles are then distributed and Day 1 begins.
- Throughout the bidding phases, the thread is locked, however, the Naturalist QT is unlocked.

The Draft:

Once alignments have been dealt out, each player must send a (whole) number back to the mod, with the lowest unique number winning the draft. Second place is awarded to the second lowest unique number and so on, until all unique numbers have been exhausted. Next placed on the list is the lowest doubled numbers, followed by the next lowest doubled numbers, and so on. Continue this same process for triples and quadruples. In cases of multiple players selecting the same number, the higher placed between these players is chosen randomly. Each player receives their position in the draft order via PM (resp. in their faction QT).

Bidding for roles:

Once the draft order has been determined, each player PM's the moderator of the game with the role they'd like to be (or "Slot 9"). Roles are unisex, in the sense, that they can be selected by Mafia, Town or the SK. Exemptions are the "convert SK" roles (may only be taken by the SK), and the Ninja and Strongman modifiers (may only be taken by non-town). So, it's possible to have a Mafia 1-Shot Vig or a Town 1-Shot Vig, and so on. Only one role from each slot will be awarded. Here are the list of roles players select from:

Slot 1:

Night 3 Vigilante OR Vengeful OR Strongman

Slot 2:

1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner OR 1-shot Lynchproof OR 1-shot Commuter

Slot 3:

Mafia Cop OR Hider OR Convert Serial Killer to Townie

Slot 4:

1-shot Watcher OR Role Cop OR 1-shot Redirector

Slot 5:

Doctor OR Roleblocker OR 1-shot Alignment Cop

Slot 6:

Ninja OR Fruit Vendor OR 1-shot Bus Driver

Slot 7:

Neighborizer OR 1-shot Bulletproof OR Convert Serial Killer to Lover

Slot 8:

Tracker OR Jailkeeper OR Convert Serial Killer to Survivor

Slot 9:

Whoever wins this slot will be given three random roles from other slots that were not taken by anyone else. They have to decide which of these roles they want within the first 24 hours of D1.
This Slot will only include roles that the player choosing the slot is able to have (i.e. no "Strongman" for Townies).
For balance reasons, the mafia and the SK will be told any roles in Slot 9 that come from slots they have taken.

Clarifications:
- Vengeful only triggers on night kill, and is optional.
- 1-shot PGO can be activated in one single night and will kill all players targeting the PGO that night.
- The 1-shot Alignment Cop gives results of the form "Mafia/Town/Third Party".
- The Fruit Vendor targets someone each night. That player will be informed that they received a fruit. Nothing else happens.
- Mafia that uses an active power may not perform the factional kill. The Serial Killer may perform the factional kill and their night action.
- Neighborizer can open a new 2-person QT with another player each night they are alive. Neighborhood QTs will remain open Day and Night.
- If the SK chooses "convert to Lover", he chooses one player additionally. The SK will be informed of that player's alignment and for the rest of the game, the SK will share that player's win condition instead of their own. If the player dies, the Lover dies as well.
- The Role Cop can only investigate the role that the targeted player got from the draft, it will not reveal the 1-shot Bulletproof SK.

[Teproc]

Philosophy-themed ? /in

Now let's read the setup...

[Jimmmmm]

/tag

[Teproc]

Oh it's Pick Your Power, cool. Was the standard setup really solvable ? Anyway, this looks super interesting (although it sucks that you can only blame yourself if you end up VT).

[XerxesPraelor]

/in

[yuma]

/in

[mail-mi]

/tag

[Robz888]

/in

[Eevee]

Both the flavor and the setup really look awesome, but I'm trying not to play mafia for a bit.

[yuma]

Bidding for roles:

Once the draft order has been determined, each player PM's the moderator of the game with the role they'd like to be (or "Slot 9").

Will players be notified of what position they are in the draft order? Will it be posted in thread? Or will it be sent out in PMs (i.e. you are 3rd out of 14...)

also I think the only critique I have for the setup (if you are willing to hear some critiques) is the Mafia Cop/SK Cop. I can't imagine a situation where someone would choose SK Cop over Mafia Cop. Even if you are mafia, 1. there is a better slot to hope for than that and 2. even if you do decide to take that slot the Mafia Cop is far superior for WIFOM purposes I think.

(Sorry if you didn't want the setup discussed pre-game, I can edit this post if you didn't)...

[faust]

Bidding for roles:

Once the draft order has been determined, each player PM's the moderator of the game with the role they'd like to be (or "Slot 9").

Will players be notified of what position they are in the draft order? Will it be posted in thread? Or will it be sent out in PMs (i.e. you are 3rd out of 14...)

also I think the only critique I have for the setup (if you are willing to hear some critiques) is the Mafia Cop/SK Cop. I can't imagine a situation where someone would choose SK Cop over Mafia Cop. Even if you are mafia, 1. there is a better slot to hope for than that and 2. even if you do decide to take that slot the Mafia Cop is far superior for WIFOM purposes I think.

(Sorry if you didn't want the setup discussed pre-game, I can edit this post if you didn't)...

The draft order will be sent out in PMs, I will add that to the description.

You may be right about the SK cop. I wanted to have a role there that provides some utility for mafia while not being so strong that this slot is the obvious choice for all factions. Maybe Hider is good alternative? It is roughly equal on power level to Cop, I think, and provides some benefit for scum (finding the SK, not getting tageted).

[yuma]

Bidding for roles:

Once the draft order has been determined, each player PM's the moderator of the game with the role they'd like to be (or "Slot 9").

Will players be notified of what position they are in the draft order? Will it be posted in thread? Or will it be sent out in PMs (i.e. you are 3rd out of 14...)

also I think the only critique I have for the setup (if you are willing to hear some critiques) is the Mafia Cop/SK Cop. I can't imagine a situation where someone would choose SK Cop over Mafia Cop. Even if you are mafia, 1. there is a better slot to hope for than that and 2. even if you do decide to take that slot the Mafia Cop is far superior for WIFOM purposes I think.

(Sorry if you didn't want the setup discussed pre-game, I can edit this post if you didn't)...

The draft order will be sent out in PMs, I will add that to the description.

You may be right about the SK cop. I wanted to have a role there that provides some utility for mafia while not being so strong that this slot is the obvious choice for all factions. Maybe Hider is good alternative? It is roughly equal on power level to Cop, I think, and provides some benefit for scum (finding the SK, not getting targeted).

Well I hate the hider role (my least favorite role I have played with honestly...) but it is quite comparable to cop and I think would add something to the game if the hider would die behind the mafia, SK and vig (if there is one) or the PGO (if there is one)

[ashersky]

A few questions...

Slot 1: is Vengeful compulsive or optional?  Is it on-lynch only or on-death?  This is a super powerful slot with very little pro-town power.

Slot 3: agree with yuma

Slot 4: does anyone ever take BP?  I don't think so.

Slot 5: I assume alignment cop returns town/mafia/sk?  1 shot is weak here.

Slot 7: How do you choose the SK's lover?


I like a lot of additions here, especially survivor and the redirection stuff.

[Archetype]

/tag

I don't really like PYP (can possibly be unfairly skewed towards Town/Scum) but I may /in since I like the additions made.

[faust]

A few questions...

Slot 1: is Vengeful compulsive or optional?  Is it on-lynch only or on-death?  This is a super powerful slot with very little pro-town power.

Slot 3: agree with yuma

Slot 4: does anyone ever take BP?  I don't think so.

Slot 5: I assume alignment cop returns town/mafia/sk?  1 shot is weak here.

Slot 7: How do you choose the SK's lover?


I like a lot of additions here, especially survivor and the redirection stuff.

Some of these questions are adressed in the modifications. Vengeful only triggers on night kill, and is optional. It is correct that there's little pro-town utility in this slot, it is created as a slot that town might want to take to prevent scum from getting these roles, just as some other slot have little anti-town utility.

Alignment Cop return Mafia/Town/Third Party. It is only one-shot so that there won't be too many full Cops in the setup, and I think can compete with the other roles in this slot.

The SK chooses their lover themselves.

You are probably right about 1-shot BP being too weak for the slot. I think I'm flipping it with the Role Cop from slot 7.

Thank for the input! I will update the OP to account for the changes made.

[ashersky]

I like the updates.  The only thing that sticks out to me is 1-shot alignment cop in slot 5.  Just don't think it's ever worth taking.

You know what I'd like?  Goon/Vanilla Cop.  It returns Vanilla/Not Vanilla regardless of alignment.  So you get some fun play for Fruit Vendor, for example.

[Voltaire]

/in

[mail-mi]

oh fine. /in

[faust]

I like the updates.  The only thing that sticks out to me is 1-shot alignment cop in slot 5.  Just don't think it's ever worth taking.

You know what I'd like?  Goon/Vanilla Cop.  It returns Vanilla/Not Vanilla regardless of alignment.  So you get some fun play for Fruit Vendor, for example.

But isn't your proposal just a weaker version of Role Cop?

I still like like the 1-shot alignment cop. But if everyone thinks it's underpowered, I might change it.

[ashersky]

I like the updates.  The only thing that sticks out to me is 1-shot alignment cop in slot 5.  Just don't think it's ever worth taking.

You know what I'd like?  Goon/Vanilla Cop.  It returns Vanilla/Not Vanilla regardless of alignment.  So you get some fun play for Fruit Vendor, for example.

But isn't your proposal just a weaker version of Role Cop?

I still like like the 1-shot alignment cop. But if everyone thinks it's underpowered, I might change it.

Sort of.  It adds a cool element to the game, I think.  And I want fruit vendor to be relevant when I take it.

[chairs]

/tag

[Voltaire]

/out

[mail-mi]

/out for now

[Teproc]

/out

You do realize you could draw Voltaire as a flavor name in this game ?

[shraeye]

taaaag

[faust]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

[Teproc]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

Well now I really can't wait.

[Archetype]

Alright. /in

[Voltaire]

/in if I can be lurker!Voltaire!

[Archetype]

I need to /out. At least, for now.

[faust]

/in if I can be lurker!Voltaire!

"All styles are good except the tiresome kind."

- Voltaire

[jotheonah]

well this was my college major and I'm dead in everything, so /in

[AndrewisFTTW]

/tag

[A Drowned Kernel]

/tag

[sudgy]

Can I just say to give me whatever I want?  I don't really care.

/in.

[Axxle]

/in for Edward Elric.

[mail-mi]

I /in, therefore I am

[mail-mi]

Question: so let's say I get draft #5. Well, I want slot 6. Unfortunately, so does draft #2. Does that mean that I don't get a role?

[Axxle]

Question: so let's say I get draft #5. Well, I want slot 6. Unfortunately, so does draft #2. Does that mean that I don't get a role?

From what I understand, yes. You'd just be vanilla of whatever faction you are.

[theorel]

Alright, I think I'm up for another mafia game...\in.

[Ozle]

I deny the existence of this game

[faust]

Question: so let's say I get draft #5. Well, I want slot 6. Unfortunately, so does draft #2. Does that mean that I don't get a role?

That is correct. You will be Vanilla.

[Teproc]

Yeah this needs to start. And I really don't want to be scum, being scum sucks .

[A Drowned Kernel]

/in

[Teproc]

Guys I think I just mastered mind control.

[A Drowned Kernel]

haha i'm just impatient.

Role question- does Mafia Cop just return mafia/not mafia and can't find the serial killer?

[theorel]

Make sure to use your powers for good (like making games start up faster)

[faust]

haha i'm just impatient.

Role question- does Mafia Cop just return mafia/not mafia and can't find the serial killer?

That is correct.

[AndrewisFTTW]

/in because Teproc's mind control is that powerful.

Disclaimer: I'm already kinda lost and will probably continue to be lost throughout the game.

[theorel]

Question: Do we get to know where we are in the draft when choosing a role?  Or do we have to guess?

[faust]

Question: Do we get to know where we are in the draft when choosing a role?  Or do we have to guess?

Everyone gets their number in the draft via PM before choosing a role.

[yuma]

Wow, I didn't realize this is a 15 player game. I thought we were filled, but still need a few more.

[scott_pilgrim]

/in

I think there is a Nash equilibrium for the bidding though?  It looks similar to another game theory problem I've seen.  Maybe it's difficult enough to solve that you don't mind some players taking the time to figure it out.

[scott_pilgrim]

/in

I think there is a Nash equilibrium for the bidding though?  It looks similar to another game theory problem I've seen.  Maybe it's difficult enough to solve that you don't mind some players taking the time to figure it out.

Okay I'm thinking about it more and I think the mechanic is actually interesting, because you're not just trying to maximize your chances of getting first pick, you're trying to maximize your chances of getting the slot you want, or maybe one of your two favorite slots, or whatever.  People won't necessarily go for the same thing so it's not going to be "solvable".

[Teproc]

Especially because you're not only looking at the power of roles for you, but at what you're taking out for the other faction.

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah, the problem I was thinking of would have told you how to bid if you only care about whether you do or don't get first, but since you (and other players) would also be happy to get second or third or whatever it's a totally different problem.

[Axxle]

Can we announce what number we're betting in thread?

[Axxle]

Any strategy discussion pre-game will be deleted - like this one.

[Teproc]

[faust]

Can we announce what number we're betting in thread?

No.

[Axxle]

Bah.

[mcmcsalot]

this is soo big...

[faust]

Public Service Announcement:

Due to me being VLA over the weekend, this game will not start before Tuesday, even if it fills earlier.

[mcmcsalot]

Tempted...

[ashersky]

Tempted...

If you do, I will.

[mcmcsalot]

/in

[ashersky]

/in

[ashersky]

Man, this game is full and still no PMs?  What the heck...

[ashersky]

/sendmemypmcat

[Robz888]

FINALLY

[faust]

This game is full! PMs will be going out now. Please everyone confirm and send a positive whole number with your confirmation PM.

Thread locked expect for tags!

[faust]

Endless discussions, a bazillion of argument and counter-arguments, heated exchanges – but still no conclusion. What is reality – is it grounded solely in matter, or does it only exist in our minds? Since the beginning of philosophy, two schools of thought stand opposing: The Idealists, who claim that the reality we can know of is only mental, and the Naturalists, in whose opinion all that is real is simply a result of physical interactions.

Finally, this conflict should be brought to an end. The greatest minds of all time were invited to a conference in the ivory tower, where they planned to lock themselves in until an agreement was found.

The conference started out badly. Every single attendant already held a firm conviction in this matter, and barely anyone was willing to concede the tiniest bit to the other faction.

As the discussion was at its worst point, John Rawls stepped forward. "This is leading nowhere!", he yelled. "We need another method to solve this problem. Luckily, I have already developed one. In my book 'A Theory of Justice'..."

At this point Friedrich Nietzsche cut him off sharply. He rose from his chair and exclaimed: "Justice! What is justice but an empty word, brought to us by lower, weaker humans that seek to prevent the arrival of the Übermensch!"

"For Christ's sake, Nietzsche, just let the man finish!", answered René Descartes. "Christ is dead", murmured Nietzsche as he unwillingly returned to his seat.

"Well, where was I?", continued Rawls. "Ah yes, my method. See, I brought with me this 'veil of ignorance'. We are all far too concerned with our personal animosities against each other. If we all hide behind this veil, we will not know each other's identities. That way, we are able to continue our discussion on a more objective basis."

Soon everyone agreed that this was the way they should proceed, and it was determined that, come the next Day, all would hide behind the veil and thus be unknown to each other.

In the night however, three supporters of the Naturalist concept, Thomas Hobbes, David Hume and Karl Marx, met secretly in the hallway. "I fear that with this plan proposed by Rawls, our views will fail to reach consensus", said Hobbes. "Too many here are ignorant towards the way the world really works."

"What we need is nothing less than a revolution", agreed Marx. "If we just erase the other's material existence, we'll see what is left of their claimed 'mental reality'. Listen, I have found a way for us to escape this veil of ignorance..."

At the start of the next day, as the attendees of the conference, shrouded in the veil of ignorance, got out of their chambers, they found John Rawls lying on the conference table, stabbed in the back with a black dagger. Everyone looked around, but the veil prevented them from knowing each other's true identity.

"It appears that our famed justice theorist became a victim of his own idea", remarked Zeno of Citium stoically. "I guess we better look for those who committed this crime."

[Twistedarcher]

/tag

[Archetype]

/speccy

[faust]

Rules have been slightly modified, please pay attention. Changes are bolded.

The Draft:

Once alignments have been dealt out, each player must send a (whole) number back to the mod, with the lowest unique number winning the draft. Second place is awarded to the second lowest unique number and so on, until all unique numbers have been exhausted. Next placed on the list is the lowest doubled numbers, followed by the next lowest doubled numbers, and so on. Continue this same process for triples and quadruples. In cases of multiple players selecting the same number, the higher placed between these players is chosen according to alignment: SK goes first, then Town, then Mafia. In case of multiple players of the same alignment, the order is chosen randomly. Each player receives their position in the draft order via PM (resp. in their faction QT).

[faust]

It has been brought to my attention that this latest change might make the bidding system prone to manipulation. Therefore, I'm changing it back to draft order being determined completely random among players with the same number. Sorry about the confusion. If you wish to change your bid based on this, feel free to do so.

[faust]

All players have confirmed. Bidding closes at 10 am forum time. If you wish to change your bid, make sure to do so until then.

[faust]

Bidding is closed. PMs containing your draft order are being sent. Please choose a role within 24 hours.

[faust]

Questions and balance issues regarding Slot 9 have come up, so a few things will be changed/clarified:

Slot 9:

Whoever wins this slot will be given three random roles from other slots that were not taken by anyone else. They have to decide which of these roles they want within the first 24 hours of D1.
This Slot will only include roles that the player choosing the slot is able to have (i.e. no "Strongman" for Townies).
For balance reasons, the mafia and the SK will be told any roles in Slot 9 that come from slots they have taken.

Due to the changes, the deadline for role choosing is extended until March 29, 6 am forum time.

[faust]

As the following night started, all attendees of the conference started looking for equipment that might help them fulfil their task. They searched the ivory tower for stuff to use. Some had better luck than others. Some did not find any tool at all. They would have to rely on the one weapon that had never failed them: their mind.

Day 1 has begun!

Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (15): Teproc, XerxesPraelor, yuma, Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, Axxle, mail-mi, theorel, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, ashersky

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014.

[XerxesPraelor]

First!
vote: robz for always feeling scummy to me.

[theorel]

Hey everybody...I probably won't be around much this weekend.
It's been long enough since my last game that I don't have any good RVS reads.

[Teproc]

So excited for this game !

*resists doing philosophy jokes that might be taken for a flavor claim or whatever*

I think we should do NO theory talk at all. Not only for the usual reasons (clutters up the thread, makes rereads difficults, allows for empty talk by scum), but also because scum doesn't actually have a lot of info here, and they would get a ton of it if we talk too much (which we will invariably do if we talk theory).

We'll probably have to discuss draft order and whatever on later days, but what do we say to flavor talk ? Not today.

[Teproc]

I mean theory talk in that last sentence (well, second to last).

[XerxesPraelor]

In that case, I'll not be posting much till Voltaire / Ash / Robz posts and create some controversy I can use for reads.

[mail-mi]

Idea: flavor claim. Thoughts?

vote: robz Bandwagon!

[sudgy]

In that case, I'll not be posting much till Voltaire / Ash / Robz posts and create some controversy I can use for reads.

Vote: XerxesPraelor.  There's more that you can do rather than wait.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: Teproc

I have a theory that if I vote for Teproc, nothing of importance will happen. Oh right, ixnay on the theory alktay.

[Teproc]

vote: Teproc

I have a theory that if I vote for Teproc, nothing of importance will happen. Oh right, ixnay on the theory alktay.

Is this language mafia ?

[Teproc]

vote : scott_pilgrim for destroying me in a Goons mirror in the last set or our Gokodom match (although we tied overall, for those super invested in our Gokodom performances).

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: Teproc

I have a theory that if I vote for Teproc, nothing of importance will happen. Oh right, ixnay on the theory alktay.

Is this language mafia ?

I thought this was Clown College Mafia V... uh oh.

[Axxle]

So excited for this game !

*resists doing philosophy jokes that might be taken for a flavor claim or whatever*

I think we should do NO theory talk at all. Not only for the usual reasons (clutters up the thread, makes rereads difficults, allows for empty talk by scum), but also because scum doesn't actually have a lot of info here, and they would get a ton of it if we talk too much (which we will invariably do if we talk theory).

We'll probably have to discuss draft order and whatever on later days, but what do we say to flavor talk ? Not today.

vote: Teproc

I have a theory that if I vote for Teproc, nothing of importance will happen. Oh right, ixnay on the theory alktay.

This is the best player list.

[Axxle]

Vote: robz

Wagons aren't really wagons with just two.

[Teproc]

Vote: robz

Wagons aren't really wagons with just two.

Don't you know he's the IC ?

[Robz888]

So excited for this game !

*resists doing philosophy jokes that might be taken for a flavor claim or whatever*

I think we should do NO theory talk at all. Not only for the usual reasons (clutters up the thread, makes rereads difficults, allows for empty talk by scum), but also because scum doesn't actually have a lot of info here, and they would get a ton of it if we talk too much (which we will invariably do if we talk theory).

We'll probably have to discuss draft order and whatever on later days, but what do we say to flavor talk ? Not today.

Nah, I want to discuss the setup.

I think that after 24 hours have elapsed, we should all write down two PRs. The Slot 9 guy will write down the two PRs he didn't pick; everyone else just writes down two random PRs.

That way, when Slot 9 guy dies, if he's town, we know two PRs the mafia don't have.

We should also possibly discuss the sort of PR we would want a slot 9 townie to pursue.

In my opinion, Unlimited Cops > Jailkeeper > Hider > Doctor > Tracker > 1-shot Cop > Other 1-shots > Neighborizer > Fruit Vendor, etc.

[Axxle]

Stawp

[Voltaire]

In that case, I'll not be posting much till Voltaire / Ash / Robz posts and create some controversy I can use for reads.

I am scum with ash and Robz. We hatched a N0 plan to get you lynched D1.

Seriously though, crazy cool setup that I'm hella lost on, so I'm a-ok with no theory talk. I do think, though, that we should vote: Axxle because have I played with you since you returned? I'm not sure. I know

Oh, is this the first game where I can yell at Robz as a co-player for his IC stuff? It is? Yay! Robz, ICs do not work that way! 

[Voltaire]

Looking at the player list, I am pre-disposed not to lynch those I've struck out on D1: Teproc, XerxesPraelor, yuma, Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, Axxle, mail-mi, theorel, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, ashersky

Of course this isn't the same as my final lists.

Also, to those who said scum don't have that much info, they actually do - they know the roles they got, whether or not they are Slot9, and if they aren't, they'll know any (overlap) roles chosen. So they have markedly more info than we do, like usual.

[Robz888]

Why one earth do people not want to talk about the setup?! I spent hours thinking about my choice. I hope the rest of the town did the same! And I think we should at least talk about the things I am proposing... very scummy of Voltaire to just skip past it...

[liopoil]

/tag

[Voltaire]

Seriously though, crazy cool setup that I'm hella lost on, so I'm a-ok with no theory talk.

I don't want to talk theory because I am prone to PR- or VT-slipping. If someone comes up with a concrete plan(s) I can look at, I will happily. But I would rather not form any ideas or opinions out loud.

[Teproc]

Looking at the player list, I am pre-disposed not to lynch those I've struck out on D1: Teproc, XerxesPraelor, yuma, Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, Axxle, mail-mi, theorel, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, ashersky

Of course this isn't the same as my final lists.

Also, to those who said scum don't have that much info, they actually do - they know the roles they got, whether or not they are Slot9, and if they aren't, they'll know any (overlap) roles chosen. So they have markedly more info than we do, like usual.

"those" was me. What I meant is that they have less info than they ususally do. Of course they still have a lot more than us.

Crossing people off pre-game seems very wrong to me, but I guess we'll just never agree on that.

@Robz : What Voltaire said.

[Robz888]

Okay, my concrete plan, again:

I think that after 24 hours have elapsed, we should all write down two PRs. The Slot 9 guy will write down the two PRs he didn't pick; everyone else just writes down two random PRs.

That way, when Slot 9 guy dies, if he's town, we know two PRs the mafia don't have.

We should also possibly discuss the sort of PR we would want a slot 9 townie to pursue.

In my opinion, Unlimited Cops > Jailkeeper > Hider > Doctor > Tracker > 1-shot Cop > Other 1-shots > Neighborizer > Fruit Vendor, etc.

[Teproc]

I'll cooperate if the majority (I'm using this loosely, I'm not suggesting to do a vote on it) is open to it.

unvote

[Voltaire]

OK, that actually seems fine. As long as everyone knows to use random.org in their random roles, because otherwise we'll clue the mafia in to any power role(s) we may collectively have. Also, if it's not random, mafia will know if we name a role they have. I don't think that's a problem, but it's something to note.

Basically just wanting to make sure we don't give mafia extra info.

[Robz888]

I'll cooperate if the majority (I'm using this loosely, I'm not suggesting to do a vote on it) is open to it.

unvote

So I take it you don't see any gaping problem with the plant that I am missing?

Anyway, thank you for answer that is much more helpful than STAWP.

[Voltaire]

I am 100% against directing the Slot9 person, if town, on what to pick.

[Robz888]

OK, that actually seems fine. As long as everyone knows to use random.org in their random roles, because otherwise we'll clue the mafia in to any power role(s) we may collectively have. Also, if it's not random, mafia will know if we name a role they have. I don't think that's a problem, but it's something to note.

Basically just wanting to make sure we don't give mafia extra info.

Okay, see there you go, a problem I did not foresee. Anyone who named a role--even at random--that someone else has will obviously not be Slot 9, to just that person. In an extreme worst case scenario, that would potentially help the mafia eliminate three players as having Slot 9. Of course, that seems statistically very unlikely. So I tend to see this as probably just giving everyone (mafia included) a little bit of information... and I am okay with that.

[Robz888]

I am 100% against directing the Slot9 person, if town, on what to pick.

Why? In the last game, mail-mi did nothing on Night 2 and roleblocked me, a virtual IC, on Night 3. Sometimes townies need advice!

[Teproc]

I am 100% against directing the Slot9 person, if town, on what to pick.

Why? In the last game, mail-mi did nothing on Night 2 and roleblocked me, a virtual IC, on Night 3. Sometimes townies need advice!

mail-mi's failure to submit on night 2 has nothing to do with town directing. Night 3 sure, but I'd rather have that than the whole WIFOM that is involved in directing town PRs.

[Robz888]

You people are no fun at all.

[scott_pilgrim]

Wait, do people flip with their slot when they die?  Otherwise how will we know when slot 9 dies?  Or is the idea that the other player who shares a role with slot 9's role also claim when slot 9 dies?  Then the plan does nothing if slot 9's role shares a slot with one of mafia's PR's (since mafia won't claim just to give town information).  Or what if slot 9 has a PR from a slot which no one has, or similarly if no one (or scum) picked slot 9?  It seems like a lot of confusion for what probably ends up giving scum more information than town...Or am I missing something?

[Robz888]

True, we wouldn't know the slot 9 person died, when they died. Hmm. Plan aborted, I guess.

[Voltaire]

A tiny town read on Teproc and Robz here at the start. We should still lynch Axxle for the air-tight case I presented earlier.

[mail-mi]

What about my flavor claim idea? It looks like, from the opening paragraph, that scum have flavor names that are bad, and we could see if maybe the don't have fakeclaims. Just a thought.

[Voltaire]

Eh, I don't mind flavor claiming, but it won't catch scum - they'll have fakeclaims. Mods are good*.

*yes, I tried to break a game via this one time but that was only because the mod explicitly made a comment intended to cast doubt on scum having fake-claims in that game

[Robz888]

Flavor claim is probably pointless either way, but I'm Plato.

[Voltaire]

I will give you all 0 guesses who I am.

[Teproc]

I will give you all 0 guesses who I am.

Rousseau ?

This is beyond pointless by the way, but I'm René Descartes.

[mail-mi]

Zeno of Citium

[sudgy]

Confucius

[scott_pilgrim]

Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

[Teproc]

Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

Sounds like a Marx fakeclaim to me (so it probably isn't).

[Axxle]

Slavoj Žižek

I will give you all 0 guesses who I am.

Rousseau ?

This is beyond pointless by the way, but I'm René Descartes.

You sound p confident

Vote: Teproc

[Teproc]

I doubt that this is a serious vote.

Better ?

[Axxle]

I doubt that this is a serious vote.

Better ?

its srs as I got right now

[Axxle]

It sounds like you know scum has fake claims rather than suspect

[Teproc]

It sounds like you know scum has fake claims rather than suspect

I thought you were making a joke about the fact that I sounded certain of something while claiming René Descartes.

The thing is : we went through this in DWII (Voltaire alluded to it already) because it was slightly unclear in the OP, fought about it for a few days and didn't do it, and then ended up flavor claiming on day 3 or something, where it did nothing. That's the game that convinced me that theory talk is generally anti-town (because I did rereads and those first few pages were painful).

There is also no way that scum doesn't have fake claims, since their flavor is clearly stated in the OP (Hobbes, Hume and Marx are mafia, Nietzsche is SK).

[Axxle]

Consider my vote rvs then.

[Robz888]

Yeah I agree with Teproc. I *know* that scum have fake claims too.

[mail-mi]

Yeah I agree with Teproc. I *know* that scum have fake claims too.

oh you do? vote: robz scum knows scum has fake claims!

[Axxle]

Yeah I agree with Teproc. I *know* that scum have fake claims too.

oh you do? vote: robz scum knows scum has fake claims!

did you completely miss me and teproc's exchange ?

[mail-mi]

Yeah I agree with Teproc. I *know* that scum have fake claims too.

oh you do? vote: robz scum knows scum has fake claims!

did you completely miss me and teproc's exchange ?

it's called rvs, my friend,.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sorry I haven't been posting much, today has been pretty nuts.  Tomorrow might not be any better, I'm doing taxes. Fun.

[theorel]

I'm Bertrand Russell.

This game is tricky to theory-talk...most of the interesting stuff happened pre-game.

I remember vaguely from the last one of these (which I was not in, but followed at various points), that they did a number-claim, and I think a mass-claim at some point.  I'm pretty sure scum lied, but I'm not sure the overall effect of the claims (whether it helped or hindered town).  In the end, scum won, but that was because ehunt fooled everyone and their mom.  Anyways, does anybody who was in that game have any comments on the effectiveness of claiming that happened and what could be done better this game?

vote: AndrewisFTTW for doing his taxes.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm Benedict de Spinoza.

There are a lot of people is this game, this should be interesting. There was some talk about claiming up there, are we not doing that?

I feel like Philosopher's Mafia deserves a truly random RVS.

1.   Teproc
2.   XerxesPraelor
3.   yuma
4.   Robz888
5.   Voltaire
6.   jotheonah
7.   sudgy
8.   Axxle
9.   mail-mi
10. theorel
11.  A Drowned Kernel
12.  AndrewisFTTW
13.  scott_pilgrim
14.  mcmcsalot
15.  ashersky

Rolled 1d15 : 7, total 7

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Sudgy

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.1

Robz888 (2): XerxesPraelor, mail-mi
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
Teproc (2): AndrewisFTTW, Axxle
Axxle (1): Voltaire
AndrewisFTTW (1): Theorel
sugdy (1):A Drowned Kernel

Not voting (7): Robz888, Teproc, yuma, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, ashersky, jothenoah

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[Voltaire]

There was some talk about claiming up there, are we not doing that?

Why the hell would we claim?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm not sure, there was talk about it and then it died down. I was wondering if anyone else had anything to say.

[Robz888]

I'm Bertrand Russell.

This game is tricky to theory-talk...most of the interesting stuff happened pre-game.

I remember vaguely from the last one of these (which I was not in, but followed at various points), that they did a number-claim, and I think a mass-claim at some point.  I'm pretty sure scum lied, but I'm not sure the overall effect of the claims (whether it helped or hindered town).  In the end, scum won, but that was because ehunt fooled everyone and their mom.  Anyways, does anybody who was in that game have any comments on the effectiveness of claiming that happened and what could be done better this game?

vote: AndrewisFTTW for doing his taxes.

Yeah, I was town n that game. That was Mafia XVI. The game could have gone either way, it was down to the last 3 people, I think.

I remember we number claimed--fairly early, I think?--but now I'm thinking, why on earth did we do that? I can't see what benefit that has.

[sudgy]

Vote: Sudgy

:O :O :OOOOOOO

Vote: A Drowned Kernel

[mcmcsalot]

It sounds like you know scum has fake claims rather than suspect

No it doesn't, it's just extremely obvious scum will have fake claims. vote: axxle

[mcmcsalot]

Judith butler checking in!

[Axxle]

Is no one actually reading this game? Non drunk axle post tomorrow.

[mcmcsalot]

Is no one actually reading this game? Non drunk axle post tomorrow.

Yea I read the exchange still okay with this vote for now.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

[Robz888]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

[Robz888]

Vote: Andrew

[Teproc]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

[sudgy]

In that case, I'll not be posting much till Voltaire / Ash / Robz posts and create some controversy I can use for reads.

You still haven't posted since this.  Vote: XerxesPraelor

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

[Teproc]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

I didn't say I didn't oppose it; I do. But we're pretty much still in RVS so it doesn't matter right now.

[Teproc]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

I didn't say I didn't oppose it; I do. But we're pretty much still in RVS so it doesn't matter right now.

vote : AndrewisFTTW

[Teproc]

In case it was unclear : this is a serious vote.

[Robz888]

We are not in RVS. No one mention RVS again.

[sudgy]

Mine isn't RVS either.

(sorry for mentioning RVS)

I mean, Mint isn't RVS either

(sorry again)

(Although I am serious about my vote)

[AndrewisFTTW]

Cool, everybody's serious for once. I like that.

[yuma]

Vote: Andrew

vote: andrew

[yuma]

So I am the mod who ran the setup last night..... obviously that has been modified...

My thoughts from that experience... number claiming I think is a mistake. This game I think is also a bit harder to figure out and thus better for scum... as in the game before players had only one choice of a role to pick from a slot. Some where obviously better roles for mafia (vigs, rolecop) and if someone picked one of those roles they were suspicious. Here... not so much, because someone can have won slot 1 for example and be a strongman, but can fake claim as vengeful or something like that....

One idea that I do have is this:

if we have a SK that was converted to a townie or a survivor (BUT NOT LOVER) I wonder if they should claim. I don't think a SK would fake claim that, maybe they would??? But it basically confirms someone for us as "not mafia" unless mafia fake claims that, but that seems risky unless they won that role... Anyway that is as far as I think claiming should go if it should go at all.

I haven't fully fleshed that idea out, but I think it has potential. It obviously won't be completely trust worthy but it might be... One downside is that we will be guaranteed to not have a JK/Tracker or a Doctor/Roleblocker if that person does claim, but I think having a psuedo-non-mafia-IC might be worth giving scum that knowledge...?

[Robz888]

Yuma, cool SK plan... and I was trying so hard to think of something fun like that!

But I need to think about it...

[Robz888]

I don't think SK would fake that, because we will start looking at then funny if there are multiple kills night after night. And if they don't kill, they are just ultimately putting themselves behind. AND they risk counterclaim by a person who had that slot.

Mafia can't counterclaim. Perhaps they can fake claim if it looks like no one else is going to do that? But then the the true SK knows the mafia guy is lying, so the mafia guy could get killed.

Yeah, I like the plan. Creates a Day 1 IC for us, and that's always a plus.

Anyone seen any problems?

[yuma]

Yuma, cool SK plan... and I was trying so hard to think of something fun like that!

But I need to think about it...

yeah it is more complicated than I initially thought. I started typing and then new things kept popping out at me because the setup has so many different potential differences...

Ash is playing this game, yes? I want him (and everyone else as well, but specifically him cause he just has a really good eye for those sort of things) to look at it before we do anything

I can say that if I were a SK I would have absolutely gone for one of the slots to not be a SK. That was one of my least favorite experiences ever playing mafia so if everyone is like me (if you aren't you should be!) then hopefully someone will have chosen and won to become town aligned

[Robz888]

Yeah, I think the SK's best move was to absolutely pursue Slot 3, if the SK was high enough in the draft. Slot 8 would be okay, but had some pretty desirable town powers, so that doesn't look like the best big for a low drafter. Maybe Slot 9 and hope for an SK-change power.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.2

Robz888 (2): XerxesPraelor, mail-mi
Teproc (2): AndrewisFTTW, Axxle
Axxle (2): Voltaire, mcmcsalot
AndrewisFTTW (4): Theorel, Robz888, Teproc, yuma
sudgy (1): A Drowned Kernel
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy

Not voting (3): scott_pilgrim, ashersky, jothenoah

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[theorel]

I'm not sure about survivor claiming...survivors aren't exactly ICs, in that they don't share the town's win-con.

I'm pretty sure SK-as-town could claim.  Possibilities for fake-claim include:
scum fake it for IC status.
SK fake-claims it for IC status.

In either case, if there are 2 NKs then it becomes likely that the IC is lying (not guaranteed given PGO).  Of course, there could be a missing NK for a while if we have protective roles, but counting on that for a fake claim seems slightly unreasonable to me.

If mafia claims and SK ever dies, then they're auto-lynched for lying which seems a bit risky to me, especially given the above. 

Now, SK fake-claiming it is interesting, but dangerous, for the following 2 reasons.
1. Increased chance of NK from scum.  (depending if they believe you, and likelihood of protective powers).
2. If 3 mafia die ever, you're already outed.  This seems pretty problematic to the whole SK win-con of last-man-standing.  Like lynch 3 mafia, oops, town already knows who you are.

So, I'd be willing to take a SK-claimed-town at face-value, personally.

[yuma]

Eevee claimed as survivor in Modern Community and ended up winning... with mafia. But he would have taken a town win if he could. Basically the survivor becomes a player that town knows they can count on if we get a lynch or two in. But if the game starts going the other way it quickly becomes a liability, but a liability that is obviously known...

[Voltaire]

And if no-one claims it, it should be pretty easy to figure out if we have a SK or not based on night kills...so...I think I am good with this?

[Voltaire]

Of course, the not-SK-anymore should maybe wait until later in the day to claim, so we have some interactions involving them first.

[yuma]

Of course, the not-SK-anymore should maybe wait until later in the day to claim, so we have some interactions involving them first.

and maybe even a later day? As an IC that gets to choose when to claim in later days has been shown to be more powerful than a beginning of day IC. However, this does raise the possibility of a SK waiting a few days to see if their NKs are blocked or something and using the "IC Claim" as a backup emergency plan... but I guess that is kinda doubtful.

[theorel]

Regarding the survivor situation...

The thing is, with a survivor, you lose lylo.  Scum claim and force survivor to vote with them, otherwise they night-kill survivor.
So, you lose at 7.  So, you have 9 players (1 confirmed survivor), and need to hit scum or lose.  Or you could lynch the survivor and go to the 7-player lylo.  So, town should lynch survivor.  (note that survivor at 9 players could care less which side is lynched from a win-con perspective, which is all the more reason town should lynch them).

Of course, then, you could have lynched them at 11 players, and had the smaller town, improved scum chances situation for 9 players.  Etc, back to day-1, why didn't you just lynch the survivor day-1?  Because it feels bad to just force a single player to lose, when they don't have to.  But the fact is that it hurts town not to lynch that player.

So, in the end, I think town should lynch a survivor day-1 because it improves their chances to win.  Feel bad about it if you like, it sucks to be the survivor, because it's a crappy role.

But, really will town do this?  I dunno...as I said, hard to lynch someone and make them lose to improve your chances of winning.  Especially given you can win together if you just play the deduction game better.  I'd lynch them though, because I play the probability game pretty hard (i.e. I prefer the game-theory side of mafia to the scum-hunting/social deduction side).

Scum won't NK a survivor, so claiming at least benefits the survivor on that side.

Regarding IC-timing-claim-issue.

We also have potential protective roles, which make earlier IC-claims better (because they can be protected, or at least NOT NKed for fear of protection).

Hmm...okay...IC-claim-timing theory:  I think it's (perhaps entirely) dependent on the player.  Some ICs are better "directors" (i.e. can be really effectove as known ICs).  While other players might be better as "detectors" (i.e. finding the scum based on interactions when the IC is unknown).
Like, for ash, delayed IC claim is probably more powerful, because he's really good at figuring out who scum are, but appears super-scummy himself.
For TA(I think?) it might be more powerful to just claim early, because he's just very effective as an IC, directing town and stuff.  (basing this off comments from the last blitz-game, might be wrong).

Anyways, that's my thought on it.  Just don't get shot by the town-vig

[Robz888]

Of course, the not-SK-anymore should maybe wait until later in the day to claim, so we have some interactions involving them first.

and maybe even a later day? As an IC that gets to choose when to claim in later days has been shown to be more powerful than a beginning of day IC. However, this does raise the possibility of a SK waiting a few days to see if their NKs are blocked or something and using the "IC Claim" as a backup emergency plan... but I guess that is kinda doubtful.

I think I would rather he claimed today. At worst it gets him killed, which is hardly a disaster.

[mail-mi]

I'm down with the SK-turned-town claiming plan. Fake claiming is unwise for either scum or sk, so it seems pretty good.

Also, we may not even have it and just be wasting pages (which is NOT a good idea), so I think we should end the discussion soon, if not right now.

and unvote

[yuma]

Anyways, that's my thought on it.  Just don't get shot by the town-vig

If the hidden IC doesn't want to get shot by the town vig they should just make sure to not suspect the town vig for horrible reasons and look extremely scummy causing the town vig to think that he is scum for sure!

(MVIII reference for everyone wondering...)

[Robz888]

I mean, the hidden IC shouldn't expect the town Vig to shoot anyone tonight...

[Robz888]

... because Vigs shouldn't shoot on Night 1!

[A Drowned Kernel]

No one should expect the town Vig (if there is one) to shoot tonight because it's a Night 3 Vig.

[Voltaire]

Not Vig-slips, not-Vig slips everywhere! This is why we try not to talk theory, and this is what always happens.

Why haven't we lynched Axxle yet?

[Robz888]

Yeah, a bunch of people slipped that they do not have a role that isn't even in the game! I think we're fine.

[Teproc]

vote: yuma

So we were finally starting this game, and yuma rolls in with a plan that is the epitome of why we shouldn't theory talk in this game but apparently everyone is just cool with that ? I'm not, this is a waste of time and only beneficts scum by :
1) Giving a lot of info. Seriously guys, read those posts. Also read the setup thoroughly
2) Delaying the start of the game/adding pointless material to the thread

[XerxesPraelor]

Not Vig-slips, not-Vig slips everywhere! This is why we try not to talk theory, and this is what always happens.

Why haven't we lynched Axxle yet?

Why would we lynch him?
Also, the later yuma gets without vigging, the more suspicious we should be.

[XerxesPraelor]

Oops, wrong one. Still, what did axxle do wrong?

[XerxesPraelor]

... because Vigs shouldn't shoot on Night 1!

Why not?

[Teproc]

... because Vigs shouldn't shoot on Night 1!

Why not?

Oh dear God.

Robz (and a bunch of other people) doesn't think vigs should shoot on day 1, ash thinks they should. Let's please not do this ?

[XerxesPraelor]

On Sk- claiming, it seems odd, but good.
Also: Vote: Teproc.
Theory is one of the best ways of making interactions, and I rely on lots of discussion to get off the ground.

[Robz888]

Teproc, sheesh.

Xerxes, some of us think that Vigs should not shoot on Night 1. I am one the biggest proponent of that. The reason is that the opinion of one townie isn't necessarily better than the collective town, or even better than random. This is fairly debatable of course, but in a vacuum, Vigs are often going to just be a detriment to town.

In later days, with a lot more information, Vigs can do some good--particular if we are in a situation where we can't win without them. On Night 1, a Vig who shoots is just going to see an extra townie turn up dead, and why would we want that?

This take is slightly outdated, though, since Vigs have not been a big part of recent games. And we don't even have a regular Vig here, so no need to really discuss it further.

[Teproc]

Teproc, sheesh.

We were on a good track, and nothing good has come out of this discussion, quite the contrary. Not sure what's worth sheeshing about.

[Robz888]

I'm just not a fan of theory panic. I don't think it's scummy/not scummy to have the opinion you do, I just don't share it.

[ashersky]

Hey guys, just checking in, still on LA for at least 36 more hours (should be able to start ZM18 though).  I do have thoughts on the setup.

No one claim anything at this point.  That needs to be stated.

[ashersky]

Also, that last setup change by Faust came about due to me finding a way to beat the setup during pre-game.  I'm not convinced he's completely stopped me from trapping scum though.  Let me think it through.

Now that the draft is complete, I do think there's still a way to catch scum in lies with coordinated claiming, but it needs to be planned out correctly.  When I have more time, I'll post my thinking and see what others think.

[ashersky]

Alright, turns out I have a few minutes now, and I expect some free time later in the evening.

I played the last version of this game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5187.0 for reference, as people name it but haven't bothered to link it).  As mentioned, eHunt won that one as mafia.

One of the main differences between the original and this variation is that Slot 9.  In the original, if mafia won a slot (say, Roleblocker), they had a built in fake claim that could not be counterclaimed (Doctor).  If they didn't win a slot, VT was a safe claim, since they knew someone else got the slot they bid on.  In that sense, the original setup provided some extra information for mafia (i.e., I didn't win my Roleblocker bid; ergo, there is a town Doctor OR Roleblocker in the game.)

In this game, Slot 9 removes mafia's built in fake claims.  That meant that if the Mafia got the Strongman role, they couldn't safely fakeclaim Vengeful, in case it went to Slot 9.  I figured we could just force a claiming order that would hem scum into dangerous territory and basically POE on D1 and just lynch from the liar pool.  The basic idea was, force everyone to claim role, then claim draft slot.  Scum can't fakeclaim a town role safely, and they can't claim VT if they won a role.  One way around that would have been to claim to have chosen something of someone above them in the draft order, but that's why we'd keep draft order claiming until AFTER roles were claimed.  I didn't see a way scum could beat my plan.  I pointed this out to Faust pre-game because to me that was just gaming the system and not really playing a mafia game, and he made the adjustment that if Slot 9 was made with any roles from the mafia or SK slots, they'd be informed.  Now they have safe fake claims.

I don't know for sure that there isn't a way we could still do it with some combination of number claiming following by draft order claiming followed by mass claiming.  I actually think forcing an order claiming BEFORE the number claiming is the best way to catch scum, though, as I don't think role claims help us catch anyone -- scum can just safely claim the town role that isn't in Slot 9 and/or VT if they didn't win a role.

If there's something to be gained from claims, it's draft order and whole numbers.  If we set the draft order correctly (and really, scum can't get out of telling the truth here, as we'll have missing turns), we can figure out who's lying or not pretty easily when claims happen.  I'm worried though, that it just lets scum actually POE everyone's possible roles relative to their own draft rank -- so mafia who missed out on Strongman knows that someone above them on the draft order list is Vengeful or N3 Vig.

With faust's Slot 9 fix, I don't think there's a safe way of catching scum through claiming, based on my back of the napkin thoughts here.  While we could get more information through number/draft rank claiming, I think it's too detrimental to town and therefore needs to be avoided.

Does that make sense?  Did I miss anything?

Now to think about yuma's SK plan.

[ashersky]

One idea that I do have is this:

if we have a SK that was converted to a townie or a survivor (BUT NOT LOVER) I wonder if they should claim. I don't think a SK would fake claim that, maybe they would??? But it basically confirms someone for us as "not mafia" unless mafia fake claims that, but that seems risky unless they won that role... Anyway that is as far as I think claiming should go if it should go at all.

I haven't fully fleshed that idea out, but I think it has potential. It obviously won't be completely trust worthy but it might be... One downside is that we will be guaranteed to not have a JK/Tracker or a Doctor/Roleblocker if that person does claim, but I think having a psuedo-non-mafia-IC might be worth giving scum that knowledge...?

I've thought this over, and I think this is a bad idea.  ICs are strong, but if we decide to proclaim "okay, SK that turned townie or survivor, claim now please!" and then there is no claim, what new information has that silence added to the game?  Right now, we don't know what scum does and doesn't know.

But if no Innocent or Survivor SK comes forward, we're basically confirming the existence of one of the other roles.  I don't think that's a good idea.  Plus, we don't know if the SK roles went to Slot 9.

Right now, for example, there's a 1/27 chance there's a Tracker in the game, right?  If we do the "SK should claim" plan, and he doesn't, that drops to a 1/2 chance (+Slot 9 shenanigans).  I think confirming that sort of thing strikes me as a bad for town, because scum knowing what to look out for helps them, not us.

[Axxle]

Let me know when theory stops. We had a perfectly good "rvs" wagon on robz to look at to launch the game.

[faust]

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."
- Plato

Vote Count 1.3

Teproc (3): AndrewisFTTW, Axxle, XerxesPraelor
Axxle (2): Voltaire, mcmcsalot
AndrewisFTTW (3): theorel, Robz888, yuma
sugdy (1): A Drowned Kernel
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
yuma (1): Teproc

Not voting (4): scott_pilgrim, ashersky, jothenoah, mail-mi

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[theorel]

I agree that draft-order claiming only benefits scum.
Draft Order + mass-claim could catch them in either a lie or unusuality (i.e. why'd you pick that role with that draft-order?)  But, that's not the strongest evidence, and it depends on which roles they chose and their spot in draft order, AND if they lie, there's the difficulty of actually catching it.

There's much more than a 1/27 chance there's a Tracker in this game.  If we give each town player equal probability of selecting Tracker from all available roles there's more like a 12/27 chance of a tracker (which is also wrong for various reasons).  Regardless, there are reasons SK->Survivor shouldn't claim, so that doesn't really matter.

Now, a SK->Townie claiming tells scum that it's less likely there's a cop (since that requires one of the roles to have gone to slot 9, which is around a 1/16 chance).  Which, it's not like there's a whole lot scum can do about a cop existing.  Especially given the potential for any role to show up in slot-9, I'm leaning towards SK-townie claiming being a low-cost claim.

[mcmcsalot]

Why are robz, Yuma, and theorel voting for Andrew?

[theorel]

Because he does taxes...(that's my reason).  I have no idea why Robz and yuma are doing it.

[theorel]

Alright, so, as we transition out of RVS and theory-talk (which we're doing now, because I say so, and I'm always right about this)...I'm going to give a massive 15-person reads list, using my patented scumScore system, which invariably fails to find scum, but always confirms me as town until later when I'm mislynched at lylo.  Let's see, 3 scum out of 15 is 1/5=20% 

mcmcsalot: he asked the reason for some votes just now.  It could be a great scum-ploy trying to figure out if there's a reasonable wagon there.  But it seems more like probing town to me.  scumScore = 18.

Robz888: He's engaged in the game, and it's day1.  Actually, this seems scummy to me coming from Robz.  I think this is his only current game though...and he's coming off the IC high in XXXIX with a town win.  He feels like town Robz, which often means he's scum-Robz.  But maybe I'm getting better at reading him?  Darn self-aware town-scum-flipping read thingy.  I'm going with an extremely slight-scum.  scumScore=21

yuma: Sounds like town-yuma to me.  Bringing up random helpful stuff and whatnot.  I dunno, I haven't read scum-yuma in a while...I feel like he's good at being scum and might be just utterly fooling me.  scumScore = 16

ashersky: Thought-out pregame plans are a town-ashersky thing.  He could fake it as scum, I mean he's crazy good at being scum after all.  But, really, I really think I'm getting good at reading ashersky, and this is town-ash.  scumScore=15

Teproc: I don't know him well.  He's all "oh no THEORY, this game is awful, and you people are horrible amoral human beings, you should be making jokes."  He's voting for yuma who's probably town, but y'know lynching town-yuma might not be a terrible idea, after all then he won't be able to persuade us with terrible reads (please take this in the light-hearted, yuma has had terrible reads lately, but I actually think he's a decent player tone that it was intended).  Anyways, I'm null here scumScore=20

Axxle: Hmm...I'm not sure how many times I've actually played with Axxle.  I thought he was scum in my first game.  I thought he was scum in my first win.  Both times he was town.  I don't remember ever having a town read on him.  I also don't remember him ever actually being scum in a game I was in.  I don't really have a read at this point, but I think I might actually be terrible at reading Axxle anyways.  scumScore = 20.

Okay, now I need to look, because I don't know so many of you people.
AndrewisFTTW: He saved the Power Grid game, yay!  I'm voting for him, and still forgot he existed.  I even just posted about him.  My brain is like a seive.  scumScore=20.

A Drowned Kernel: Such a cool name.  And spike avatar.  I've been skimming newmafia.  I have no idea what he's posted here, he's voting for sudgy though, which is probably a good idea as he's always scum (or always mislynched, or something).  scumScore=20.

sudgy: He's probably very scummy this game, because, y'know he's playing it and stuff.  But even if he's the serial killer, and I defend him, I'm not scum.  scumScore = 20.

mail-mi: I actually remembered him before I saw his name in the list.  I have no idea how to read mail-mi.  But he's probably town as he's trying to not-subtly end theory talk, without freaking out and voting people over it.  Actually, did I pick him out as scum in that last game I won?  I think I did.  I think I convinced everyone not to lynch scum and lynch him instead, when he was scum.  So, maybe I can read mail-mi.  He's town.  scumScore = 18

Voltaire: hey, Voltaire's here.  Right, all the philosophy-jokes I remember now.  Um...I remember he posted stuff.  I don't remember what.  Oh he voted for Axxle...maybe over the random Axxle-Teproc exchange?  (was that Teproc?)  scumScore = 20.

XerxesPraelor: Oooh, is he the guy that said he wouldn't post anything until something happened?  Then he asked why vigs shouldn't shoot (spoiler: they should).  Yeah, I'm leaning very slightly town here.  scumScore = 19

scott_pilgrim: hmm...I don't remember anything from him.  He might have posted though.  scumScore = 20.

jotheonah: hey, joth is in the game!  I remember that now.  I actually don't think he's posted at all...because I probably might have remembered that.  joth, say stuff.  scumScore = 20.

Alright, well there's a limited number of scum-reads there.  Mostly because it was the weekend and nobody posted anything.  I'm going to vote for someone though, for a better reason than taxes.  Oh right, Andrew...I really probably should have been able to put him in the first section, since I voted for him (noting that above...)

I'm gonna join this Teproc wagon and see what happens there, because wagons are fun and the day is young.  And I have basically no scum-reads  Vote: Teproc

[Teproc]

Teproc: I don't know him well.  He's all "oh no THEORY, this game is awful, and you people are horrible amoral human beings, you should be making jokes."  He's voting for yuma who's probably town, but y'know lynching town-yuma might not be a terrible idea, after all then he won't be able to persuade us with terrible reads (please take this in the light-hearted, yuma has had terrible reads lately, but I actually think he's a decent player tone that it was intended).  Anyways, I'm null here scumScore=20

Huh ? When did I say we should be making jokes ? We should be scumhunting, which is what you're doing here, great.

Except you're just voting for someone who you find null, and your vote is explicitely a pressure vote. Which doesn't accomplish anything. Pressure votes are fine and useful, except when you explicitely say it's a pressure vote it completely removes the pressure, which is kinda the point of them.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sounds like Teproc is feeling the pressure of the non-pressuring pressure vote. Cue "Under Pressure".

[Teproc]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

I still think Andrew is scummy by the way. The absence of reaction to the mini-wagon on him is a little strange to me. Maybe he thought it was RVS at first, but even when it was specified not to be, he kinda disappeared, which I'm not sure what do with. I specifically voted for him without giving reasons hoping that it would prompt a reaction, but nothing.

PPE : Speaking of the devil !

[AndrewisFTTW]

The fact that nobody gave reasons for voting doesn't mean anything to me. Give me something I can argue and you'll hear from me a lot more.

[Voltaire]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

[theorel]

Teproc: I don't know him well.  He's all "oh no THEORY, this game is awful, and you people are horrible amoral human beings, you should be making jokes."  He's voting for yuma who's probably town, but y'know lynching town-yuma might not be a terrible idea, after all then he won't be able to persuade us with terrible reads (please take this in the light-hearted, yuma has had terrible reads lately, but I actually think he's a decent player tone that it was intended).  Anyways, I'm null here scumScore=20

Huh ? When did I say we should be making jokes ? We should be scumhunting, which is what you're doing here, great.

Except you're just voting for someone who you find null, and your vote is explicitely a pressure vote. Which doesn't accomplish anything. Pressure votes are fine and useful, except when you explicitely say it's a pressure vote it completely removes the pressure, which is kinda the point of them.

I don't vote people for pressure.  I think that's actually a stupid reason to vote for people, because town often freaks out under pressure, and scum often keeps their cool...it's more a factor of the person than their alignment.  OTOH, increasing the number of votes on someone has many other useful effects which are independent of pressure, which I've discussed at length elsewhere.  For now, I'll just point out the appearance of a more viable wagon, and the change of feel of the day as more votes accumulate.

But, I'm not really clear why you think my vote is a pressure vote anyways?  I mean, I'd be fine with lynching you.

[theorel]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

I didn't respond to this bit though.
I think that it's actually not that unusual for yuma to advance a plan.  He's always anti-claim without consensus, but he's the same here.  I don't think yuma is more or less likely to suggest claiming, he's just going to be upset if people claim willy-nilly.

I don't think it's given away any information.  I think that people are overly concerned about others "saying too much", I don't think anyone has done so.  Town WIFOM is a thing, and theory talk is a great way to exploit it.

[Teproc]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

You were wrong about him in DWII. And yes, he was erratic in that game, but still. I have no opinion on him so far though.

I don't vote people for pressure.  I think that's actually a stupid reason to vote for people, because town often freaks out under pressure, and scum often keeps their cool...it's more a factor of the person than their alignment.  OTOH, increasing the number of votes on someone has many other useful effects which are independent of pressure, which I've discussed at length elsewhere.  For now, I'll just point out the appearance of a more viable wagon, and the change of feel of the day as more votes accumulate.

But, I'm not really clear why you think my vote is a pressure vote anyways?  I mean, I'd be fine with lynching you.

Well your vote seems to be to get a wagon going more than thinking I'm scum, since, by your own words, you have a null read on me... Maybe we have dfferent definitions of a pressure vote, but that's what it sounds like to me.

Except you'd be fine with lynching me, despite not actually having a scum read ? That's just strange.

[Teproc]

The fact that nobody gave reasons for voting doesn't mean anything to me. Give me something I can argue and you'll hear from me a lot more.

I'll give you my reasons then, even though I've since switched to yuma : I was trying to get the game going by casting an explicitly serious vote on you on somewhat flimsy reasons (because all reasons to vote are pretty flimsy at this point in the game anyway) to know how you'd react. You've chosen not to react, which I guess is fine except it meant that discussion then moved to useless things instead of you arguing against the votes on you, which would have been useful content. This is what I find scummy about your absence of reaction : you passed on an opportunity to get the game going basically.

[AndrewisFTTW]

The fact that nobody gave reasons for voting doesn't mean anything to me. Give me something I can argue and you'll hear from me a lot more.

I'll give you my reasons then, even though I've since switched to yuma : I was trying to get the game going by casting an explicitly serious vote on you on somewhat flimsy reasons (because all reasons to vote are pretty flimsy at this point in the game anyway) to know how you'd react. You've chosen not to react, which I guess is fine except it meant that discussion then moved to useless things instead of you arguing against the votes on you, which would have been useful content. This is what I find scummy about your absence of reaction : you passed on an opportunity to get the game going basically.

All I had were four votes on me with 0 reasoning (besides theorel's taxes thing) which means they're not serious as far as I can tell, although you said you had flimsy reasons (which I'm curious about, as they still haven't been stated). Why would I respond seriously to something I didn't consider serious? Sure it gets the game moving, but it gets the game moving against me with arguments about me making a big deal out of nothing and freaking out about votes meant to gauge reaction (sample response: "You freaked out over a few votes. That's exactly what we wanted to happen. That's scummy!"). Besides, the game was going to get going either way and here we are. And based on all of that, I'm keeping my vote on you.

[Voltaire]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

You were wrong about him in DWII. And yes, he was erratic in that game, but still. I have no opinion on him so far though.

Was I? It's entirely possible. I used to be wrong about ash all the time. I'm talking about more recently. You've made me realize maybe I should go look this up, but I'm talking much more currently.

[Teproc]

DWII seems recent enough to me, doesn't it ? ash was town, went a little crazy on day 1 about faust (who did some weird things himself like fakeclaiming Vengeful), you pushed hard for his lynch day 2 when he maintained that faust was the right lynch and other ridiculous stuff like that.

(Sorry ash, but that game wasn't exactly your finest hour)

@Andrew : My flimsy reason was that I didn't like your answer to Robz's random lynch suggestion : you basically said "No thanks, I'll pass", instead of actually taking a position on it : either going along or firmly opposing the idea of a random lynch. I've actually stated this before btw but I can't be bothered to get the quote.

[theorel]

...
Well your vote seems to be to get a wagon going more than thinking I'm scum, since, by your own words, you have a null read on me... Maybe we have dfferent definitions of a pressure vote, but that's what it sounds like to me.

Except you'd be fine with lynching me, despite not actually having a scum read ? That's just strange.

My vote was to get a wagon on you.  The purpose of a wagon (for me) is not pressure.  Pressure makes people make mistakes, mistakes tend to get people lynched (regardless of alignment).  Anyways, it was a "wagoning" vote, but those I don't believe are pointless when announced.

But yeah, I have a much much lower threshold to lynch someone.  I'm pro-death in mafia games.  Vigs should shoot, towns should lynch, you never know when you might get lucky and hit scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

@Andrew : My flimsy reason was that I didn't like your answer to Robz's random lynch suggestion : you basically said "No thanks, I'll pass", instead of actually taking a position on it : either going along or firmly opposing the idea of a random lynch. I've actually stated this before btw but I can't be bothered to get the quote.

Ok here it is:

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

I said I'll pass but that doesn't mean I don't have a position on random lynching. As I stated above, I'd rather have a case on someone first. If you don't like that answer, that's fine, you don't have to.

[mcmcsalot]

I find people voting for Andrew scummy.

[Robz888]

I find people voting for Andrew scummy.

Why?

[mcmcsalot]

Because I don't think the "case" on him is good at all.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.4

Teproc (4): AndrewisFTTW, Axxle, XerxesPraelor, Theorel
Axxle (1): mcmcsalot
AndrewisFTTW (2): Robz888, yuma
sudgy (1): A Drowned Kernel
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
yuma (2): Teproc, Voltaire

Not voting (4): scott_pilgrim, ashersky, jothenoah, mail-mi

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[yuma]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

vote: teproc

This post looks like teproc is trying to find a way to justify his "policy vote" with a pseudo-real reason.

But let's talk about this:

I am against claiming in dumb ways w/o thinking about things. I have claimed before in games. I am not against claiming. I am also not interested in plans that are intended to be game breaking as I feel they break the spirit of the game.

What I am interested in is looking at the setup and finding ways to potentially use the setup to an advantage as it is intended. I feel like I have always done this, but with most setups it is quickly apparent that there is no reason to discuss claiming or anything else as it is quite obvious that we can't get much out of it.

This is not the case here. If you want to disagree with me about finding a way to create an advantage then I don't know what to say... I think that you are at fault for disagreeing with me here based off one bad experience in a game where it was fairly obvious (DWII) that claiming would net zero benefits.

I believe that if we do have a SK turned town that is worth the loss of WIFOMed information to mafia in return for an IC. You have played with an IC Teproc. You should know that an IC is very valuable.

Regardless of your alignment, your stance of "claiming is bad ALWAYS" is wrong. It should be "claiming is bad most of the time, it is worth some discussion to find out unless it is blatantly obvious that there is no benefit" but that is a lot longer to type out so I can understand why you woulnd't want it as your motto. Could I suggest an acronym? CIBMOTTISWSDTFOUIIBOTTISNB? Yeah, that is pretty long too.

[Axxle]

claiming is bad so often that it's not really worth discussion.

[yuma]

claiming is bad so often that it's not really worth discussion.

Right, but here... in this specific situation... where we would have a former SK claiming as town... there are zero drawbacks! So why not do it if it exists... that is what I don't get from Teproc. He is just plugging his ears and going "Nananana!" because he believes that it is always bad. But here, it isn't. It has a tangible benefit (I am pretty sure) with very few to no drawbacks.

[Robz888]

I agree.

Can we do a tally or something? I vote lets do it.

[yuma]

I agree.

Can we do a tally or something? I vote lets do it.

No, that is silly. At this point we should probably just drop it and not beat it to death (on that point I agree with teproc). If said person exists they should look at the said benefits and the said drawbacks and then make a formed decision for themselves. Because ultimately their vote is the only one that will count... Even if we are 14 to 1 and the 1 is the one that needs to claim they aren't going to just because everyone else thinks that they should.

[ashersky]

At this point, any SK can make the decision on their own.

[yuma]

At this point I am really only interested in furthering the discussion in terms of how I think Teproc is hiding behind his "policy" of this in an attempt to cast suspicion on me and ultimately perhaps getting me lynched

[ashersky]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

vote: teproc

This post looks like teproc is trying to find a way to justify his "policy vote" with a pseudo-real reason.

But let's talk about this:

I am against claiming in dumb ways w/o thinking about things. I have claimed before in games. I am not against claiming. I am also not interested in plans that are intended to be game breaking as I feel they break the spirit of the game.

What I am interested in is looking at the setup and finding ways to potentially use the setup to an advantage as it is intended. I feel like I have always done this, but with most setups it is quickly apparent that there is no reason to discuss claiming or anything else as it is quite obvious that we can't get much out of it.

This is not the case here. If you want to disagree with me about finding a way to create an advantage then I don't know what to say... I think that you are at fault for disagreeing with me here based off one bad experience in a game where it was fairly obvious (DWII) that claiming would net zero benefits.

I believe that if we do have a SK turned town that is worth the loss of WIFOMed information to mafia in return for an IC. You have played with an IC Teproc. You should know that an IC is very valuable.

Regardless of your alignment, your stance of "claiming is bad ALWAYS" is wrong. It should be "claiming is bad most of the time, it is worth some discussion to find out unless it is blatantly obvious that there is no benefit" but that is a lot longer to type out so I can understand why you woulnd't want it as your motto. Could I suggest an acronym? CIBMOTTISWSDTFOUIIBOTTISNB? Yeah, that is pretty long too.

Yuma, this is what you are discussing, right?

If anything, I think it reads like Teproc is the SK and doesn't like all the talk about him specifically.

[theorel]

This is pretty quiet for a 15-player game.  But I guess RMM13 is going strong, and has several crossover players.
I'm gonna vote: joth to see if he shows up.  Pretty sure he's the only person who actually hasn't posted.

[yuma]

Yuma, this is what you are discussing, right?

If anything, I think it reads like Teproc is the SK and doesn't like all the talk about him specifically.

I guess that is possible.

[yuma]

I find people voting for Andrew scummy.

I find you scummy for finding me scummy!

But really why are we scummy?

Because I don't think the "case" on him is good at all.

oh right the case...

Which you ask about here...

Why are robz, Yuma, and theorel voting for Andrew?

But then don't give either Robz or I a chance to explain what that case might be?
Robz does post immediately after so maybe you saw him online or something and knew he wasn't going to respond, but I certainly never received a chance to explain myself.

Now... the fact of the matter is that there isn't a case, at least not from my perspective. My vote was to follow Robz's vote due to the small exchange that they had about random lynching.

But the point remains that I feel that you slowly and deliberately constructed a scenario in which you attempted to make it look like you were concerned about the andrew wagon, simulated wanting to find out more and then reacted in a way that you had already pre-determined to behave regardless of how or whether people responded

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yuma, this is what you are discussing, right?

If anything, I think it reads like Teproc is the SK and doesn't like all the talk about him specifically.

I guess that is possible.

Either way, that's a weird post from Teproc and I'm comfortable keeping my vote there.

But the point remains that I feel that you slowly and deliberately constructed a scenario in which you attempted to make it look like you were concerned about the andrew wagon, simulated wanting to find out more and then reacted in a way that you had already pre-determined to behave regardless of how or whether people responded

Now that's interesting; and very possible.

[mail-mi]

This is pretty quiet for a 15-player game.  But I guess RMM13 is going strong, and has several crossover players.
I'm gonna vote: joth to see if he shows up.  Pretty sure he's the only person who actually hasn't posted.

I dig it. vote: joth

[Robz888]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

[scott_pilgrim]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

[scott_pilgrim]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

Okay I'm here, sorry.  So far it looks like people have just been talking about theory, and whether they should be talking about theory.  I don't mind theory talk but I don't think anyone has come up with anything big and I don't expect them to.  The SK plan seems pointless, they should already have decided for themselves whether to claim.  I think there's this idea that once we stop talking about theory suddenly people will get into arguments and the social deduction mayhem will ensue, but I don’t see why they can’t coincide, I mean maybe it clutters up the thread, so that's a thing.

Has anyone done anything scummy yet?  I don't think so, I guess I'm kind of in spectator mode until something exciting happens, which I know is not the best way to play but there you go.  Man I feel like I say that every game D1.  You guys can vote me for lurking if you like, but joth has posted less than me so why not vote him instead.

Okay instead of being super unhelpful let me try to think about what has happened this game.  People talked about theory.  Then people talked about whether they should talk about theory.  Teproc cluttered up the thread a bit talking about how theory talk clutters up the thread, whether he netted a positive or negative or equal amount of clutter by saying that over and over again, I don't know.  But is he scummy for it?  I mean I feel like maybe there's something there, but really it just doesn't tell us anything.  Robz hasn't claimed IC status yet, so that's something.  I guess what interests me is why are people voting for Teproc, I still don't really get it.  Are all four of those votes actually serious?  (Not "actually" as in are you guys crazy, "actually" as in I'm making sure I know what's happening.)  And if they are I assume they're like, well this is the scummiest we've seen but I'm just waiting to see what happens, and not like, let's lynch Teproc guys he's totally scum.

[scott_pilgrim]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

Okay I'm here, sorry.  So far it looks like people have just been talking about theory, and whether they should be talking about theory.  I don't mind theory talk but I don't think anyone has come up with anything big and I don't expect them to.  The SK plan seems pointless, they should already have decided for themselves whether to claim.  I think there's this idea that once we stop talking about theory suddenly people will get into arguments and the social deduction mayhem will ensue, but I don’t see why they can’t coincide, I mean maybe it clutters up the thread, so that's a thing.

Has anyone done anything scummy yet?  I don't think so, I guess I'm kind of in spectator mode until something exciting happens, which I know is not the best way to play but there you go.  Man I feel like I say that every game D1.  You guys can vote me for lurking if you like, but joth has posted less than me so why not vote him instead.

Okay instead of being super unhelpful let me try to think about what has happened this game.  People talked about theory.  Then people talked about whether they should talk about theory.  Teproc cluttered up the thread a bit talking about how theory talk clutters up the thread, whether he netted a positive or negative or equal amount of clutter by saying that over and over again, I don't know.  But is he scummy for it?  I mean I feel like maybe there's something there, but really it just doesn't tell us anything.  Robz hasn't claimed IC status yet, so that's something.  I guess what interests me is why are people voting for Teproc, I still don't really get it.  Are all four of those votes actually serious?  (Not "actually" as in are you guys crazy, "actually" as in I'm making sure I know what's happening.)  And if they are I assume they're like, well this is the scummiest we've seen but I'm just waiting to see what happens, and not like, let's lynch Teproc guys he's totally scum.

Thank you for that profoundly insightful post, unvote

[scott_pilgrim]

I guess what interests me is why are people voting for Teproc, I still don't really get it.  Are all four of those votes actually serious?

Oh, well at least theorel has moved his vote since then.  But I was wondering theorel why did you vote for Teproc when you gave Robz a higher scum score.  Do you base your vote off of like a product of scum score and number of votes that person already has?  (Well plus a constant or something because otherwise you would automatically not lynch anyone who doesn't have any votes.)

[scott_pilgrim]

I guess what interests me is why are people voting for Teproc, I still don't really get it.  Are all four of those votes actually serious?

Oh, well at least theorel has moved his vote since then.  But I was wondering theorel why did you vote for Teproc when you gave Robz a higher scum score.  Do you base your vote off of like a product of scum score and number of votes that person already has?  (Well plus a constant or something because otherwise you would automatically not lynch anyone who doesn't have any votes.)

Wait the four count is still right because yuma has voted Teproc since the last vote count, I confused myself.  4+1-1=4.  Okay I'm done talking to myself now.

[Teproc]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

vote: teproc

This post looks like teproc is trying to find a way to justify his "policy vote" with a pseudo-real reason.

My vote on you was not a policy vote. I voted for you because I believe the plan you proposed :
1) Had no chance of being followed
2) Got people to talk about things they shouldn't talk about

The post you're quoting here is just me realizing that you talking about theory might be unusual, and asking about it to the crowd of people who have more games with you. And then stating the reasons I was voting for you for clarity's sake.

Regardless of your alignment, your stance of "claiming is bad ALWAYS" is wrong. It should be "claiming is bad most of the time, it is worth some discussion to find out unless it is blatantly obvious that there is no benefit" but that is a lot longer to type out so I can understand why you woulnd't want it as your motto. Could I suggest an acronym? CIBMOTTISWSDTFOUIIBOTTISNB? Yeah, that is pretty long too.

This is not my stance at all. I'm not against claiming, I'm against theory talk on day 1. I think plans can be useful on later days, and I would say the theory talk we had in day2 of GoT would have been very good if the setup had been right.

DWII is not the only game that led me to this. DoP is the other one, in that it convinced me that plans on D1 will simply not be followed, even if they're good. I think the rolling numbers thing was a good plan then, but people kept misunderstanding it.

Genuine question : how many times has a plan been executed on f.ds day 1 ? In a normal game I mean ? Mafia XXX is the only one that comes to mind. And sure, that was an example of a great plan that worked perfectly. But how many games have been lost because people don't have the energy to reread or because someone VT slipped which helped scum kill the PRs ?

Scott_pilgrim has a point that my opposition to theory talk has probably cluttered up the thread, which is obviously pretty awful, but I guess we've got a wagon now, so that's good at least.

[Teproc]

Yuma, this is what you are discussing, right?

If anything, I think it reads like Teproc is the SK and doesn't like all the talk about him specifically.

What ? That doesn't actually make sense.

[Teproc]

Yuma, this is what you are discussing, right?

If anything, I think it reads like Teproc is the SK and doesn't like all the talk about him specifically.

What ? That doesn't actually make sense.

I guess I'll elaborate :

why would a SK be uncomfortable about that ? The point of the plan is for a converted SK to claim... so what does that have to do with anything ? If I'm SK and I see this discussion, I'm probably considering wether or not it's good for me to (fake)claim, but I'm not sure why I would be nervous about the conversation itself.

[theorel]

Yuma, this is what you are discussing, right?

If anything, I think it reads like Teproc is the SK and doesn't like all the talk about him specifically.

What ? That doesn't actually make sense.

I guess I'll elaborate :

why would a SK be uncomfortable about that ? The point of the plan is for a converted SK to claim... so what does that have to do with anything ? If I'm SK and I see this discussion, I'm probably considering wether or not it's good for me to (fake)claim, but I'm not sure why I would be nervous about the conversation itself.

A SK can just be uncomfortable being mentioned, because they want to kind of hide in the sidelines with no one thinking about them.  As an example, my first game (MIV), I was shot for mentioning the SK like 5-6 times during day-1, even though every time was essentially, "This might be SK behavior, but I'm not interested in going after the SK."

[jotheonah]

I have a lot of catching up to do, but I don't have time now.

[mcmcsalot]

I find people voting for Andrew scummy.

I find you scummy for finding me scummy!

But really why are we scummy?

Because I don't think the "case" on him is good at all.

oh right the case...

Which you ask about here...

Why are robz, Yuma, and theorel voting for Andrew?

But then don't give either Robz or I a chance to explain what that case might be?
Robz does post immediately after so maybe you saw him online or something and knew he wasn't going to respond, but I certainly never received a chance to explain myself.

Now... the fact of the matter is that there isn't a case, at least not from my perspective. My vote was to follow Robz's vote due to the small exchange that they had about random lynching.

But the point remains that I feel that you slowly and deliberately constructed a scenario in which you attempted to make it look like you were concerned about the andrew wagon, simulated wanting to find out more and then reacted in a way that you had already pre-determined to behave regardless of how or whether people responded

blegh, really?  It's not like I am voting for any of you and why should I be forced to wait for you to asnwer. I asked why people were voting because I couldnt see any case on him, this makes me find his voters scummy. I didn't need to ask for what the case was on him to know it was crap. I just don't see how that equates to me manufacturing a scenario where I can find the andrew voters scummy.

I guess how was i supposed to go about expressing my scum read on the andrew wagon which i felt was made of nothing, and figure out if any of the wagoners really felt they had a strong case? or should I just not do that?

[Teproc]

Yuma, this is what you are discussing, right?

If anything, I think it reads like Teproc is the SK and doesn't like all the talk about him specifically.

What ? That doesn't actually make sense.

I guess I'll elaborate :

why would a SK be uncomfortable about that ? The point of the plan is for a converted SK to claim... so what does that have to do with anything ? If I'm SK and I see this discussion, I'm probably considering wether or not it's good for me to (fake)claim, but I'm not sure why I would be nervous about the conversation itself.

A SK can just be uncomfortable being mentioned, because they want to kind of hide in the sidelines with no one thinking about them.  As an example, my first game (MIV), I was shot for mentioning the SK like 5-6 times during day-1, even though every time was essentially, "This might be SK behavior, but I'm not interested in going after the SK."

Interesting, although that might be him suspecting you to be mafia (since SK hunting is generally more beneficial to mafia than to town I think).

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.5

Teproc (4): AndrewisFTTW, Axxle, XerxesPraelor, yuma
Axxle (1): mcmcsalot
AndrewisFTTW (1): Robz888
sudgy (1): A Drowned Kernel
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
yuma (2): Teproc, Voltaire
jotheonah (2): Theorel, mail-mi


Not voting (3): ashersky, jothenoah, scott_pilgrim

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[yuma]

My vote on you was not a policy vote. I voted for you because I believe the plan you proposed :
1) Had no chance of being followed
2) Got people to talk about things they shouldn't talk about

The post you're quoting here is just me realizing that you talking about theory might be unusual, and asking about it to the crowd of people who have more games with you. And then stating the reasons I was voting for you for clarity's sake.

How is that not a policy vote though? It is based on arbitrary requirements that have no bearing on someone being scum or not...

And it was never a plan. Because a plan requires coordinated efforts of multiple people to come together--and they very rarely do, I agree with you there--here it was pointing out something that may or may not have been fully obvious to the very player that it was impacting. I know that when I looked at it I wasn't sure what the right course of action would be if I was said player--hence wanting to have a discussion about it so said player could be informed and make an intelligent decision--we are all smart here, don't get me wrong, but this is a complex setup with a lot of things that can easily be overlooked.

So what I see you doing is voting me for what I call policy, but maybe you don't? Regardless for reasons that are arbitrary and then searching out legitimate reasons to justify your vote.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So it seems like people have stopped talking about theory and have are now talking about whether people should be lynched for wanting to talk about theory or not wanting to talk about theory, but...

People have brought up the possibility of number-claiming, and isn't that something we'd pretty much have to do day one in order for it to be useful? I assume that information isn't included in the flip. For that matter, would a converted SK flip as such, or would they flip as a VT?

As to who's scummy or not: it's hard to tell since most of the talk has been theory talk (besides the random wagon on Andrew) or people arguing over whether theory talk is good or not, and I have no real experience with that matter- I've never been in a game where a mass claim happened early on. I do find Axxle a little scummy for his repeated "I'll be back when theory talk is over", you can talk about stuff while other people are talking you know, or even try to stop them from doing it. Making excuses to lurk at the very least seems anti-town.

Vote: Axxle

[yuma]

I am not using theory as a reason to vote!

I am saying teproc used a stance against theory talk to vote for me then tried to find a way to justify his vote on me, which I find scummy... hiding behind something then looking to justify it...

so stop saying i am voting off theory! i don't care scum hunting wise what people think theory wise, I am voting off what I perceive to be scummy behavior.

[Teproc]

How is that not a policy vote though? It is based on arbitrary requirements that have no bearing on someone being scum or not...

It's not a policy vote because I think what you did was legitimately scummy, not just something I disagreed with. My vote is not on theorel on ashersky, it is on you because I believe your SK plan (or whatever you want to call it) could very well be a scum ploy to make town reveal stuff about their roles or lack thereof which also had the added benefit of prolonging theory talk.

This isn't arbitrary, it isn't a policy vote, it's a serious vote based on thinking you're the player the most likely to be scum right now. That you're trying to pass it off as an unreasonable vote when it clearly isn't is only increasing this in my eyes.

[Robz888]

So it seems like people have stopped talking about theory and have are now talking about whether people should be lynched for wanting to talk about theory or not wanting to talk about theory, but...

People have brought up the possibility of number-claiming, and isn't that something we'd pretty much have to do day one in order for it to be useful? I assume that information isn't included in the flip. For that matter, would a converted SK flip as such, or would they flip as a VT?

As to who's scummy or not: it's hard to tell since most of the talk has been theory talk (besides the random wagon on Andrew) or people arguing over whether theory talk is good or not, and I have no real experience with that matter- I've never been in a game where a mass claim happened early on. I do find Axxle a little scummy for his repeated "I'll be back when theory talk is over", you can talk about stuff while other people are talking you know, or even try to stop them from doing it. Making excuses to lurk at the very least seems anti-town.

Vote: Axxle

This is a deceptively empty post. Vote: ADK

[yuma]

Make town reveal stuff?

Like what? Like who the SK might be... that sounds like it is worth knowing...  And for what?

Does anyone take Teproc seriously here? This is a policy vote and he is trying to make us think otherwise... or at least it started as one and now he is trying to skew it to make it legitimate...

[Robz888]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

[yuma]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

fine. unvote

let me know when you want my input

[Teproc]

Make town reveal stuff?

Like what? Like who the SK might be... that sounds like it is worth knowing...  And for what?

Does anyone take Teproc seriously here? This is a policy vote and he is trying to make us think otherwise... or at least it started as one and now he is trying to skew it to make it legitimate...

How about you respond to what I just posted ? It is not a policy vote. You are atempting to discredit me because, what, you think I'm an easy mislynch ?

Well I doubt I'll be moving my vote any time soon. Everything about yuma's reaction to my vote tell me he's scum. This is actually textbook OMGUS, attacking the credibility of someone who votes for you by saying he doesn't make sense and is therefore scum.

[Voltaire]

Oh uh. This is actually a scum!yuma trait.

[Teproc]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

He's doing much more than that though. He's not trying to win the argument (that would be townie I think), he's trying to artificially make it look like my argument is nonexistent and therefore scummy. You should definitely be paying attention to it.

[Teproc]

Oh uh. This is actually a scum!yuma trait.

What is ?

[Robz888]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

He's doing much more than that though. He's not trying to win the argument (that would be townie I think), he's trying to artificially make it look like my argument is nonexistent and therefore scummy. You should definitely be paying attention to it.

I think that's the opposite of a scum yuma trait.

[Robz888]

... or, as normal people call it, a town yuma trait!

[Teproc]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

He's doing much more than that though. He's not trying to win the argument (that would be townie I think), he's trying to artificially make it look like my argument is nonexistent and therefore scummy. You should definitely be paying attention to it.

I think that's the opposite of a scum yuma trait.

Well you have a pretty low opinion of town!yuma I guess.

[Teproc]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

He's doing much more than that though. He's not trying to win the argument (that would be townie I think), he's trying to artificially make it look like my argument is nonexistent and therefore scummy. You should definitely be paying attention to it.

I think that's the opposite of a scum yuma trait.

Well you have a pretty low opinion of town!yuma I guess.

Kinda regret posting that, it's a bit trolly, sorry.

To clarify : I do think town!yuma easily gets bogged down in those kind of arguments, but he way he's doing it here (trying to discredit me rather than actualy having a conversation) feels scummy.

[theorel]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

He's doing much more than that though. He's not trying to win the argument (that would be townie I think), he's trying to artificially make it look like my argument is nonexistent and therefore scummy. You should definitely be paying attention to it.

Here's the Teproc-yuma exchange from my POV (since I have been following it, and just reviewed it):
1. Teproc votes for yuma because of theory-talk, being "too revealing".
2. Teproc says, oh btw theory-talk is even more scummy from "anit-claim yuma".
3. yuma says Teproc is trying to make a policy-vote sound more serious than it is.
4. Teproc says that the theory-talk was always scummy because it looks like a scum-ploy
5. yuma says Teproc is post-vote justifying, which is scummy, and has nothing to do with theory-talk.
6. Teproc says yuma is scummy because he's trying to artificially make the argument look like nothing.

I don't see much scummy going on here.  Just bad argumentation.
vote: Voltaire, I find his dropping in to encourage teproc to continue pursuing yuma with wuick one-liners of "yeah that's scum-yuma" to be the scummiest thing happening by a long-shot.  scumScore: 30

[theorel]

wuick=quick

[yuma]

vote: voltaire

[Teproc]

vote: voltaire

Now you're just taunting me.

[A Drowned Kernel]

What's the deal with your scum score thing? What is that on a scale of, 1 to 100?

The fight between Teproc and yuma seems like the sort of thing that happens a lot in these games, where a vote sets off an exchange and people start talking about people's reactions being scummy and it just sort of escalates. My general thought on these things, and my feel for this one in particular, is that they're usual between two town players, and that scum is more likely to step in and try to subtly provoke them to make one or both seem scummier for being emotional. So theorel might have a point about Voltaire, and I'm leaning townie on Robz for his stance on it.

What I would like to hear from Robz is his thoughts on the random wagon on Andrew thing. It seems like you were looking for some particular response there, but it just kind of got forgotten.

PPE: 2 Hrm well that's interesting. That was a really quick sheep, but on a player I do find slightly scummy. But that's way scummier.

Vote: Yuma

[Robz888]

What I would like to hear from Robz is his thoughts on the random wagon on Andrew thing. It seems like you were looking for some particular response there, but it just kind of got forgotten.

Yeah well, as you say, I was looking for a reaction. I like to put people on the spot. Andrew couldn't even vote for a random person? Kinda rubs me the wrong way. I think a mini wagon was pretty justified, though it's not like a very big deal. Sort of meh all the way around.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: adk theorel just did what is really needed when two people start arguing and found there's really not a lot there and then Adk votes Yuma. Looks scummy to me.

[yuma]

vote: voltaire

Now you're just taunting me.

 

[theorel]

What's the deal with your scum score thing? What is that on a scale of, 1 to 100?

Yes, scale of 100.  Essentially the probability with which I think someone will flip scum.  It essentially automatically answers the question: "but HOW scummy do you find this player".  I prefer to lynch players that hit around a 40, but I'll lynch anyone at 15 or over at deadline.

[Teproc]

I'm really torn about ADK here.

On the one hand I read his Axxle vote like an attempt by a townie to move away from my fight with yuma. It felt forced (and I certainly see why Robz called his post empty), but it felt forced like a townie trying to contribute, if that makes sense. I did that kind of posts a lot in DoP (which got me lynched, but I was town).

But then the vote on yuma now, considering Voltaire is voting for yuma and ADK thinks Voltaire is scummy... that doesn't look good. Especially since ADK was super townie in Super Mario (to me at least) so I don't expect him to look scummy as town...

[Teproc]

vote: voltaire

Now you're just taunting me.

 

Robz, get him !

[yuma]

PPE: 2 Hrm well that's interesting. That was a really quick sheep, but on a player I do find slightly scummy. But that's way scummier.

Vote: Yuma

Why is it scummy?

Robz doesn't want me to try so hard, so sheeping seems like the way to do it... Plus it is a very good point!

[mcmcsalot]

Also I agree with everything robz is saying.

As in I think Yuma is acting much like town!yuma(in a good way)

Town reads on theorel/robz/Yuma/Andrew
Scum reads on Adk/voltaire

[A Drowned Kernel]

I mean, a bit of explanation other than the vote would have been nice.

[yuma]

I mean, a bit of explanation other than the vote would have been nice.

given it came immediately after theo's post I felt it was pretty self explanatory

[Teproc]

Ok, so I get why theorel finds Voltaire scummy here. But I don't get why yuma is following, given that, to me, Voltaire's behavior (buddying me) is null because us buddying is kind of our thing, and yuma was in the game where that started (GoT).

Basically Voltaire has a history of buddying me like that as town. He knows that, so it would be very easy for him to replicate as scum, but I don't think it's particularly revealing of his aligment here.

[yuma]

is that a thing?

and if it was why would i care?

[mcmcsalot]

It's not volt buddying that's scummy it's his stoking the fire so to speak between you and Yuma

[Teproc]

is that a thing?

and if it was why would i care?

Because it's relevant here ? If Voltaire's posts had been by anyone else, I would agree they look scummy. Because it's him, I think they're null.

[Teproc]

It's not volt buddying that's scummy it's his stoking the fire so to speak between you and Yuma

Well it goes hand in hand. Again, I get the point and I find theorel townie for pointing it out, but I see it as normal behavior for him.

[yuma]

is that a thing?

and if it was why would i care?

Because it's relevant here ? If Voltaire's posts had been by anyone else, I would agree they look scummy. Because it's him, I think they're null.

nope... not for me. at least not in regard to this meta.

what mcmc said

[A Drowned Kernel]

I agree that Volt is scummy here, I just had a knee-jerk reaction the Yuma's vote.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Looking back over this, I'm feeling

Town: Robz, theorel
Null: mc, yuma
Slightly scummy: teproc
scummy: Voltaire

Vote: Voltaire

[Teproc]

Well this is something else entirely. Too scummy to be scum maybe ? But ADK was obvtown to me in Super Mario, so...

vote : A Drowned Kernel

[A Drowned Kernel]

What exactly is scummy about me? That's I'm changing my vote? I'm rereading things and changing my mind about them. Maybe I should analyze more before making up my mind but I feel like what keeps happening with these games is I analyze and analyze and reread and double-guess myself and never get anywhere.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Holy crap I'm way behind. Sorry guys, let me catch up real quick.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok so there's not much to go on and there are some noticeably absent people as well, but I don't see scum in yuma or voltaire. I think ADK looks a little odd here so I'm gonna go ahead and

vote: ADK.

[Voltaire]

Oh uh. This is actually a scum!yuma trait.

What is ?

What you also said/pointed out. scum!yuma throws up his hands and says things that have a subtext of "then I quit" or "I'm taking my ball and going home". town!yuma gets frustrated too but I feel like they are very very different and not so hard to tell apart.

I know yuma likes to say "but I would do that as town too" about things he's done when scum but man it doesn't work that way.

[Voltaire]

Oh! This is what I get for catching up on things after replying to posts. I see I drew a yuma vote with no explanation! How scummy is that, theorel?

(answer: not very, actually.)

[Voltaire]

But then the vote on yuma now, considering Voltaire is voting for yuma and ADK thinks Voltaire is scummy... that doesn't look good. Especially since ADK was super townie in Super Mario (to me at least) so I don't expect him to look scummy as town...

You can read ADK? Because man, I can't read ADK.

[Voltaire]

Robz doesn't want me to try so hard, so sheeping seems like the way to do it... Plus it is a very good point!

Oh, still catching up. These sort of posts with an undertone of petulance* are what I am talking about.

*please understand this is not meant to be personal, I am scumhunting, and that is the most accurately descriptive word I can think of for what I believe I am seeing

[Voltaire]

It's not volt buddying that's scummy it's his stoking the fire so to speak between you and Yuma

I had voted for yuma - if I was stoking the fire, as you say, it's because I think yuma is scum and I want people to vote for him!

[Voltaire]

Me buddying Teproc is totally a thing. He speaks the sense. I think we have always had the same alignment*, which means I can say that I've never been wrong about him (we were scum buddies with ash in a game).

*open to corrections, Teproc's point about DWII being more recent than I think means that all the games are blurring together now in my head

[Voltaire]

Aw man, the wagon on me is dying before it gets really going? It's been a long time since a good ol' fashioned D1 Voltaire wagon.

[Teproc]

But then the vote on yuma now, considering Voltaire is voting for yuma and ADK thinks Voltaire is scummy... that doesn't look good. Especially since ADK was super townie in Super Mario (to me at least) so I don't expect him to look scummy as town...

You can read ADK? Because man, I can't read ADK.

I've only played with him once, and I had a strong and correct read on him (but my reads were uncharacteristically good that game).

From what I remember, you and I have always been the same alignment yes (town in GoT, DWII and DoP, scum in Chocolate).

I still think yuma is somewhat scummy, but the fact that he got away from our fight is appeasing that a bit. I was kinda losing (which doesn't mean I was wrong !) and I think scum!yuma would just press on, because people so often read these fights as town v town. The fact that he moved on to something else might mean that town!yuma recognised this was going nowhere and decided to move on. Now the fact that his "moving on" vote is a sheep of theorel isn't great though, so I still have my doubts.

[Voltaire]

Town read on Teproc.

[yuma]

Robz doesn't want me to try so hard, so sheeping seems like the way to do it... Plus it is a very good point!

Oh, still catching up. These sort of posts with an undertone of petulance* are what I am talking about.

*please understand this is not meant to be personal, I am scumhunting, and that is the most accurately descriptive word I can think of for what I believe I am seeing

I am being petulant. I will fully admit to that. Why? Because I think I am right. I feel really good about my read on Teproc, but Robz basically doesn't want me to continue having the discussion... so yeah, I am annoyed. You know the last time I got into a big fight with someone and we called each other scum all day long... Diffusion of Power with Robz. And I WAS RIGHT!

And then I allowed town to talk me out of it because I was being too distracting and too annoying and too forceful and then ended up getting more suspicion than robz...

It is all just really annoying and really depressing that apparently the only way to win this game and get people to listen to you is by being as cryptic as possible and not having conversations and just randomly doing what... so yeah... I am annoyed. You want to call that scum!yuma then go ahead... vote for me. But it isn't. I was annoyed in Diffusion of power, I was annoyed in Star Wars... really I have just been kinda annoyed lately.

But I think I am right about teproc but am not going to force the issue through if everyone else doesn't want me to do so...

[mcmcsalot]

I have a near unwavering town read of Yuma.

[faust]

"Mark this well, you proud men of action! You are, after all, nothing but unconscious instruments of the men of thought."
- Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

Vote Count 1.6

Teproc (2): Axxle, XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
yuma (1): Voltaire
jotheonah (1): mail-mi
A Drowned Kernel (4): Robz888, mcmcsalot, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW
Voltaire (3): theorel, yuma, A Drowned Kernel


Not voting (3): ashersky, jothenoah, scott_pilgrim

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[Axxle]

unvote

I can get to this in an hour or so.

[Robz888]

Robz doesn't want me to try so hard, so sheeping seems like the way to do it... Plus it is a very good point!

Oh, still catching up. These sort of posts with an undertone of petulance* are what I am talking about.

*please understand this is not meant to be personal, I am scumhunting, and that is the most accurately descriptive word I can think of for what I believe I am seeing

I am being petulant. I will fully admit to that. Why? Because I think I am right. I feel really good about my read on Teproc, but Robz basically doesn't want me to continue having the discussion... so yeah, I am annoyed. You know the last time I got into a big fight with someone and we called each other scum all day long... Diffusion of Power with Robz. And I WAS RIGHT!

I didn't say I don't want you to continue having the discussion. I think you're blowing several different things a bit out of proportion. But yeah, I think this is pretty par for the course for town you. I'm not saying you should stop. You're fine. It's all fine.

[Teproc]

He should stop because he's wrong though !

Who were you mad at it Star Wars yuma ? Because I don't think it was me or XP was it ?

Where are mail-mi and sudgy ? I think joth and ash are V/LA, and Axxle will apparently be posting soon, so these two seem to be the big lurkers in this game.

[sudgy]

He should stop because he's wrong though !

Who were you mad at it Star Wars yuma ? Because I don't think it was me or XP was it ?

Where are mail-mi and sudgy ? I think joth and ash are V/LA, and Axxle will apparently be posting soon, so these two seem to be the big lurkers in this game.

Sorry, I haven't been reading much as RMM13 has been taking up most of my mafia time.

[yuma]

Who were you mad at it Star Wars yuma ? Because I don't think it was me or XP was it ?

It was efhw mostly... but the point isn't that i was frustrated with scum, but rather that i was frustrated and expressed emotion...something tha voltaire seems to think is an exclusive scum!yuma trait when it is obviously a frustrated!yuma trait...

[Voltaire]

I am saying something much more subtle than that, yuma.

[yuma]

I am saying something much more subtle than that, yuma.

i know and i am sorry, i am typing with one hand and cant easily go back to pull up exact quotes due to fatherly duties, but i am trying to get the general gist across now while i can

[Voltaire]

That's fair, take your time.

[theorel]

Oh! This is what I get for catching up on things after replying to posts. I see I drew a yuma vote with no explanation! How scummy is that, theorel?

(answer: not very, actually.)

That was my thought.  I thought I had a good point, and he agreed with it.

I didn't read your posts as so much as agreeing with Teproc as confirming him.

For example, he said (paraphrasing here and going from memory, I'm not looking them up because I'm lazy)
"does anyone else think this is scummy from anti-claim yuma?" and you said "yes, scum-yuma."

Then, sometime later, he accused yuma of discrediting him, and OMGUS, and you said "Oh, uh this is a scum-yuma trait"

Oh uh. This is actually a scum!yuma trait.

What is ?

What you also said/pointed out. scum!yuma throws up his hands and says things that have a subtext of "then I quit" or "I'm taking my ball and going home". town!yuma gets frustrated too but I feel like they are very very different and not so hard to tell apart.

I know yuma likes to say "but I would do that as town too" about things he's done when scum but man it doesn't work that way.

Honestly, I'm still a bit confused by this because you claim Teproc had said/pointed that out...But he didn't.  Teproc never commented on yuma's petulance.
Which is pretty much what I'm finding you scummy for, it seems like you're confirming Teproc's suspicions without actually considering the basis of those suspicions.  I mean, no one else agreed with (particularly) yuma being scummy for advancing a plan for a potential SK-townie convert.  So it really felt like you just prodding Teproc into continued suspicions.

Also, why did you comment about your wagon dying?  Given that no one who has voted for you has voted elsewhere, that looks a bit survivalist to me.  Trying to convince everyone your wagon died when nothing's changed.

[Voltaire]

Ah, I see the source of the confusion here! I wasn't actually referring to Teproc - the "uh-oh" was after yuma's post in which he commits the scum-tell (in my opinion), and that's what I was referring to. Then, for some reason, I thought Teproc had pointed this out. but I was the first to do so.

For this confusion/mistake, I assume I will rocket up your scum-meter and several other people's.

I commented about my wagon dying off because votes came in that weren't on me by the time I caught up. I was surprised to see it was still as big as it was when the post count came in.

And why did I talk about it in the first place? Nostalgia.

Tiny scum read on you for bringing this up, because it is the textbook sort of thing scum uses to drive mislynches. But town does it too.

[Robz888]

Ah, I see the source of the confusion here! I wasn't actually referring to Teproc - the "uh-oh" was after yuma's post in which he commits the scum-tell (in my opinion), and that's what I was referring to. Then, for some reason, I thought Teproc had pointed this out. but I was the first to do so.

For this confusion/mistake, I assume I will rocket up your scum-meter and several other people's.

I commented about my wagon dying off because votes came in that weren't on me by the time I caught up. I was surprised to see it was still as big as it was when the post count came in.

And why did I talk about it in the first place? Nostalgia.

Tiny scum read on you for bringing this up, because it is the textbook sort of thing scum uses to drive mislynches. But town does it too.

Mistakes are townie. I agree about the last part. I actually have a very mild scum read on theorel. I think he's referenced his scum o meter one too many times.

[theorel]

Ah, I see the source of the confusion here! I wasn't actually referring to Teproc - the "uh-oh" was after yuma's post in which he commits the scum-tell (in my opinion), and that's what I was referring to. Then, for some reason, I thought Teproc had pointed this out. but I was the first to do so.

For this confusion/mistake, I assume I will rocket up your scum-meter and several other people's.

It doesn't influence my scum-read from the last post.  I mean, I've just trained myself to say "I'm confused" instead of "you made a mistake", because y'know maybe I made the mistake.  From what you're saying, I didn't make the mistake, so the rest of my post holds.

Thinking about it, I've had scum-reads on you in other games we've played (maybe all of them?), and through reasoned discourse, they always dissipate.

Anyways, Robz drops in scumminess as he likes to town-read me as scum I think (though maybe he's gotten over that?)

[Voltaire]

I also have an increasing town-read on Robz.

[Robz888]

I sure am looking at a tough Day 3.

[Teproc]

I sure am looking at a tough Day 3.

"Why are you still alive Robz ?"

[Voltaire]

I sure am looking at a tough Day 3.

Think you're getting Vig-ed as an IC?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Three mafia games at once is really kicking my ass. I'm going to especially dedicate some time to this one tomorrow.

[Robz888]

I sure am looking at a tough Day 3.

Think you're getting Vig-ed as an IC?

I'm thinking, good thing I'm not scum!

[Axxle]

I can get to this in an hour or so.

April Fools!

...

[yuma]

That's fair, take your time.

Ok getting back to this and I'll try not to get into another super argument about this:

So to start in the past I think it was Adventure time speccy you made the comment that for me frustration was a scum tell. You stated this based off two games I believe... AdventureTime and DWII... both were games where I was frustrated.  I later stated that this just isn't true... after I was lynched and no longer had a motivation to lie.

I maintain that this isn't true and have used examples from games where I was town and frustrated to back this up.

Now this game: you say this:

Oh uh. This is actually a scum!yuma trait.

Followed by this:

What you also said/pointed out. scum!yuma throws up his hands and says things that have a subtext of "then I quit" or "I'm taking my ball and going home". town!yuma gets frustrated too but I feel like they are very very different and not so hard to tell apart.

I know yuma likes to say "but I would do that as town too" about things he's done when scum but man it doesn't work that way.

You don't show how they are so different or easy to tell apart. If you can, tell us why... because you are obviously wrong here from my perspective--and from the perspective of quite a few players who find me townie atm.

You then bring up petulance, which I respond to and Teproc asks me a question about it which I answer bringing up Diffusion of Power and Star Wars two games where I was frustrated and had similar reactions I think of petulance.

Thus you can see how I see what you saying being something that you have maintained in the past--regardless of alignment--that is false about myself--as you are basing it off only a subset of games that you have been in with me rather than the entire whole of it--and potentially using that predetermined idea about me as a shield to vote for me here, perhaps as scum.

[Teproc]

You don't show how they are so different or easy to tell apart. If you can, tell us why... because you are obviously wrong here from my perspective--and from the perspective of quite a few players who find me townie atm.

Why bring this up ? Why is it relevant how many people have a town read on you ?

As far as the frustration = scum!yuma thing, I do think it has been true in past games, however I don't see this kind of frustration here at all : in fact I don't see you being frustrated at all so I'm not entirely sure what Voltaire is talking about.

[yuma]

Why bring this up ? Why is it relevant how many people have a town read on you ?

As far as the frustration = scum!yuma thing, I do think it has been true in past games, however I don't see this kind of frustration here at all : in fact I don't see you being frustrated at all so I'm not entirely sure what Voltaire is talking about.

I am bringing it up because Voltaire is the only one I think who believes I abide by this meta. Obviously others don't think this way otherwise they would be voting for me if this meta analysis were true and always accurate. So I am saying to Voltaire that he is alone in this assumption because he is alone in basing this meta assignment to me after seeing two games but is ignoring (or wasn't around to see) the other games in such a way as other players were.

[mail-mi]

He should stop because he's wrong though !

Who were you mad at it Star Wars yuma ? Because I don't think it was me or XP was it ?

Where are mail-mi and sudgy ? I think joth and ash are V/LA, and Axxle will apparently be posting soon, so these two seem to be the big lurkers in this game.

Ive been at school. And writing a 10 page paper.

[Voltaire]

Let me get to this later. I will but with several ongoing games this one is the youngest so I need to drop it down.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I just re-read everything and I still like my vote on ADK. Teproc, ADK was scum in Super Mario?

[scott_pilgrim]

I just re-read everything and I still like my vote on ADK. Teproc, ADK was scum in Super Mario?

ADK was town in Super Mario, I think Teproc was saying that he thought it was super obvious ADK was town there, and now he (Teproc) can't tell what he (ADK) is in this game, so he (Teproc) thinks it's because he (ADK) might be scum.

[Robz888]

I just re-read everything and I still like my vote on ADK. Teproc, ADK was scum in Super Mario?

He wasn't.

[Teproc]

I just re-read everything and I still like my vote on ADK. Teproc, ADK was scum in Super Mario?

He was town, and I think I called his "super-duper town" in my reads post at the end of day 1 (I was also town). He just seemed to approach everything carefully and was making sense in a way that read very townie to me, especially since it was his first game.

I don't see that at all here, which is why I brought it up. It wouldn't be enough for me to really suspect him on its own, but when you add that to the way he jumped on the Voltaire wagon and his first vote on Axxle which felt very forced, it's enough to make him my top scum read.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Alright well... I think most of us have played with town!ADK and he can be a little jumpy with his votes even then, but this seems a little excessive. From Axxle to yuma to Volt in the span of 3 pages.

[mail-mi]

Sorry everyone, I've been busy and just not all that interested in mafia at the current moment. so i'll do some stuff later (maybe)

[theorel]

@mail-mi: I hereby shame you, shame shame shame.  We've all been super-active in this thread, your not posting is totally unacceptable [/sarcasm]

I keep looking at the thread to see if I should say anything, and find nothing to say.
I'm gonna look back at ADK in this thread, and see if he appears overly jumpy to me.

[Robz888]

We've still got some time. Dunno that we have useful interactions yet, though.

[yuma]

has joth ever chimed in... hard to get interactions when people aren't around to interact

[yuma]

I still think people should vote for voltaire

[Robz888]

I still think people should vote for voltaire

Could you in like two sentences summarize why?

[yuma]

I still think people should vote for voltaire

Could you in like two sentences summarize why?

I'll let theorel say it:

vote: Voltaire, I find his dropping in to encourage teproc to continue pursuing yuma with wuick one-liners of "yeah that's scum-yuma" to be the scummiest thing happening by a long-shot.  scumScore: 30

Plus I think he is voting for me by hiding behind his "frustrated!yuma is scum!yuma" assumption

[Robz888]

Okay. Well, I'm not persuaded by him, or by you, really. I sort of just think you're both town right now.

[yuma]

Okay. Well, I'm not persuaded by him, or by you, really. I sort of just think you're both town right now.

Who are you voting for? I have no idea...

[Robz888]

I think I'm voting for ADK. I had good reasons for it. I've forgotten them.

[Robz888]

Here.

So it seems like people have stopped talking about theory and have are now talking about whether people should be lynched for wanting to talk about theory or not wanting to talk about theory, but...

People have brought up the possibility of number-claiming, and isn't that something we'd pretty much have to do day one in order for it to be useful? I assume that information isn't included in the flip. For that matter, would a converted SK flip as such, or would they flip as a VT?

As to who's scummy or not: it's hard to tell since most of the talk has been theory talk (besides the random wagon on Andrew) or people arguing over whether theory talk is good or not, and I have no real experience with that matter- I've never been in a game where a mass claim happened early on. I do find Axxle a little scummy for his repeated "I'll be back when theory talk is over", you can talk about stuff while other people are talking you know, or even try to stop them from doing it. Making excuses to lurk at the very least seems anti-town.

Vote: Axxle

This is a deceptively empty post. Vote: ADK

So, that's not much.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Not seeing anything in Voltaire. When does the day end? Maybe we should just lynch joth for being Lurky McGhee.

[Robz888]

Not seeing anything in Voltaire. When does the day end? Maybe we should just lynch joth for being Lurky McGhee.

Wouldn't be the worst thing.

[Robz888]

In fact, sure. Vote: Jotheonah

[Robz888]

Although there are a handful of people lurking almost as bad.

[theorel]

Yeah, I don't get the ADK wagon.  I mean, I guess he's kind of jumpy?  But I wouldn't really call it scummy.

I don't agree with his vote on Axxle for saying "be back when theory is over", but that has to do with it being Axxle, more than his stance in that post.  I don't get what Robz saw in it.
I understand his knee-jerk vote on yuma, unless it's totally uncharacteristic for him to knee-jerk (like if I did it I'd be accusing myself of being scum).
And then changing his mind to Voltaire, which was a good and reasonable case.

Hmm...maybe the ADK wagon is scummy?
Well, Robz...I wish I could read him.  He seems so towny this game, towny-Robz=scum-Robz.  I read him townie in DS-9 he was scum.  I read him townie in Pirates he was scum.  But those games are so long ago.  And he seems so towny here.  OTOH, I read him as scummy in Buffy where he was town.  And in that game liopoil hosted, with the rotating double-doctor-vig thing, and he was town.  I really think I have reverse reads on Robz, like what I think is town-Robz is actually scum-Robz and vice versa.  But I'm meta-ing myself, and that just feels too mind-bending to be a reasonable thing to do.  And Robz is being so reasonable! I really want this to be town-Robz!  Waffles!  Waffles mafia I thought Robz was probably town-Robz, convinced myself he was probably scum-Robz, and then let my town-read over-ride it, and then let bad investigation re-over-ride that.  Then he lynched me for asking permission to vote him.  Okay, Waffles says that trying to reverse my Robz-read is a mistake.  So, I'm going to stick by my guns, and go with a town-read here.  Good, I didn't want to try to continuously second-guess myself, I might have broken something!

Okay, well, where was I?  ADK-wagon....
Somebody else voted for him....I forget who, and the vote-count isn't on the Topic Summary down below.  I'll fill this in later.

Then Teproc.  But he had a silly argument with yuma, so I don't feel like voting there, because then the argument might come back.

Then AndrewisFTTW.  Hmm...I dunno.  I think other people had voted him for quasi-real reasons.  They were discussed.  I don't remember them.

Maybe scum is just lurking like lurky lurkers.  Game's stalled out for the moment, good excuse to lurk as scum?  Talking might get you lynched after all.
But then, maybe folks is just busy.  I'd feel bad for lynching busy folks.  Not that I'm lynching them exclusively, there's 7 other people with me.  Those people are all unreasonable and not willing to give you a moment's rest.  Jeez, it's only the third day of the game, why are we lynching already?

Lurkers to me at this moment are: mail-mi, joth, Axxle, and the people I don't remember are in the game.
Not: yuma, Robz, Teproc, mcmc, Voltaire, AndrewisFTTW, ADK, myself (still weird to me to not be in the lurker-with-big-posts category).
Actually, given that I have a terrible memory, there's no guarantee the other 4 people are actually lurkers.
Looking it up now...
scott_pilgrim...he's been kind of lurky, though he self-commentated on it humorously...he's maybe posted more since then, but there have been *8* posts in the last 24 hours, so it's not like anyone is really posting lately.
XerxesPraelor...I'm not sure if he's actually lurky...he has no place in my brain.  I'm not entirely convinced this is his fault.
sudgy...yeah, pretty lurky I think.
ashersky...His VLA is over (I think, timezones make days confusing), he should be here, telling us all who the scum are, or starting a wagon on himself, or making us lose outright because he's so amazing at scum.  But still, VLA, so I'm not going to categorize him as lurking.

Okay, so, lurker voting....let's see.
I'm going back to vote: joth, his excuse for lurking seems flimsiest.

@all you lurking people: this thread has been pretty quiet.  It should be really easy to catch up.  It might be hard to have something to say, but just say something.  How about: is ADK scum?

PPE: 12 posts...tricky people having conversations while I talk about how nothing is happening.  At any rate the 8 post thing in the last 24 is false now, but it was true 12 posts ago

[theorel]

Funny that I came to the same conclusion in my writing of the post as 2 people did conversing outside my post.

[yuma]

sometimes I get scummy vibes from theorel.... but then I think... man he is doing all this work, no way he can be scum... and then I hit myself and remember that scum does work all the time...

[theorel]

Do I do a lot of work?  I think I'm just verbose.

[Robz888]

sometimes I get scummy vibes from theorel.... but then I think... man he is doing all this work, no way he can be scum... and then I hit myself and remember that scum does work all the time...

But lynching the people who do the most work is also a surefire way to just plain lose, I've realized.

[yuma]

sometimes I get scummy vibes from theorel.... but then I think... man he is doing all this work, no way he can be scum... and then I hit myself and remember that scum does work all the time...

But lynching the people who do the most work is also a surefire way to just plain lose, I've realized.

very true, very true...

[ashersky]

I haven't posted much recently, I realize.  There wasn't much response to my setup discussion, which strikes me as odd.

I agree that lack of interactions this game is frustrating.  I'll focus here tomorrow and dig up something.

[sudgy]

I'll reread this (rather than skim) after RMM13(is it 13?) goes into night.

[Voltaire]

I haven't posted much recently, I realize.  There wasn't much response to my setup discussion, which strikes me as odd.

It made me think you were town.

[Axxle]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

Did we discuss this?

[ashersky]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

Did we discuss this?

Nope.

I don't know philosophy well enough to figure it out.  Could we catch liars this way?

[Axxle]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

Did we discuss this?

Nope.

I don't know philosophy well enough to figure it out.  Could we catch liars this way?

Maybe.

I also noticed Descartes, rawis, Zeno should all be ICs because of the day 1 flavor. Who claimed those?

[Axxle]

Teproc - Descartes

Mailmi - Zeno

Other???

[scott_pilgrim]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

Did we discuss this?

Nope.

I don't know philosophy well enough to figure it out.  Could we catch liars this way?

Maybe.

I also noticed Descartes, rawis, Zeno should all be ICs because of the day 1 flavor. Who claimed those?

Do we know that faust didn't pick town's flavor names from among 15, then just give the remaining names to scum/SK for fakeclaims, independently of the flavor texts?  I guess what I mean is presumably faust still (possibly) uses scum's fakeclaims in the flavor texts.

[Robz888]

Presumably, but I don't like that you don't have much to say, and yet you appear right away to make sure nobody accidentally or wrongly gets ICed. That's kind of scummy.

[Axxle]

@scott: I had a town read on Teproc anyway so meh? I think it'd be tending toward bastard to do that.

[Axxle]

Why so many lurker joth votes, isn't lurker joth town?

[Axxle]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

I'm a day cop, ash is mafia

[ashersky]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

I'm a day cop, ash is mafia

LOL.

[Voltaire]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

I'm a day cop, ash is mafia

To be fair, the more I think about ash the more I think my read on him should actually be null.

But nice example.

[Axxle]

Where the f are you guys coming from?

[Voltaire]

Where the f are you guys coming from?

What are you talking about?

[Axxle]

Presumably, but I don't like that you don't have much to say, and yet you appear right away when I mention you. That's kind of scummy.

[Axxle]

Nvm you've both been around, hard to tell on moble

[Voltaire]

I've been reading the thread this whole time. But I don't have anything to say, because I've been focusing on other games.

[ashersky]

Presumably, but I don't like that you don't have much to say, and yet you appear right away when I mention you. That's kind of scummy.

This is about SP, I think.

[Axxle]

What do you two think about my IC discovery?

[ashersky]

Why so many lurker joth votes, isn't lurker joth town?

You mean this?  IC he is not.  Not sure you think he is.

[Axxle]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

Did we discuss this?

Nope.

I don't know philosophy well enough to figure it out.  Could we catch liars this way?

Maybe.

I also noticed Descartes, rawis, Zeno should all be ICs because of the day 1 flavor. Who claimed those?

[Axxle]

Why so many lurker joth votes, isn't lurker joth town?

You mean this?  IC he is not.  Not sure you think he is.

no what I just quoted

[ashersky]

Fun fact: in this game, flavor names will be distributed with respect to the players' metas!

Did we discuss this?

Nope.

I don't know philosophy well enough to figure it out.  Could we catch liars this way?

Maybe.

I also noticed Descartes, rawis, Zeno should all be ICs because of the day 1 flavor. Who claimed those?

Makes sense, but seems too easy.  Like, doesn't that just let us POE scum too much?  Do those flavor names match player metas?

[ashersky]

Endless discussions, a bazillion of argument and counter-arguments, heated exchanges – but still no conclusion. What is reality – is it grounded solely in matter, or does it only exist in our minds? Since the beginning of philosophy, two schools of thought stand opposing: The Idealists, who claim that the reality we can know of is only mental, and the Naturalists, in whose opinion all that is real is simply a result of physical interactions.

Finally, this conflict should be brought to an end. The greatest minds of all time were invited to a conference in the ivory tower, where they planned to lock themselves in until an agreement was found.

The conference started out badly. Every single attendant already held a firm conviction in this matter, and barely anyone was willing to concede the tiniest bit to the other faction.

As the discussion was at its worst point, John Rawls stepped forward. "This is leading nowhere!", he yelled. "We need another method to solve this problem. Luckily, I have already developed one. In my book 'A Theory of Justice'..."

At this point Friedrich Nietzsche cut him off sharply. He rose from his chair and exclaimed: "Justice! What is justice but an empty word, brought to us by lower, weaker humans that seek to prevent the arrival of the Übermensch!"

"For Christ's sake, Nietzsche, just let the man finish!", answered René Descartes. "Christ is dead", murmured Nietzsche as he unwillingly returned to his seat.

"Well, where was I?", continued Rawls. "Ah yes, my method. See, I brought with me this 'veil of ignorance'. We are all far too concerned with our personal animosities against each other. If we all hide behind this veil, we will not know each other's identities. That way, we are able to continue our discussion on a more objective basis."

Soon everyone agreed that this was the way they should proceed, and it was determined that, come the next Day, all would hide behind the veil and thus be unknown to each other.

In the night however, three supporters of the Naturalist concept, Thomas Hobbes, David Hume and Karl Marx, met secretly in the hallway. "I fear that with this plan proposed by Rawls, our views will fail to reach consensus", said Hobbes. "Too many here are ignorant towards the way the world really works."

"What we need is nothing less than a revolution", agreed Marx. "If we just erase the other's material existence, we'll see what is left of their claimed 'mental reality'. Listen, I have found a way for us to escape this veil of ignorance..."

At the start of the next day, as the attendees of the conference, shrouded in the veil of ignorance, got out of their chambers, they found John Rawls lying on the conference table, stabbed in the back with a black dagger. Everyone looked around, but the veil prevented them from knowing each other's true identity.

"It appears that our famed justice theorist became a victim of his own idea", remarked Zeno of Citium stoically. "I guess we better look for those who committed this crime."

If this is color coded, we have three ICs, three mafia, and one SK.  Does the mod just put the setup in the flavor like that?

[Axxle]

Dunno haven't played a Faust game before

[ashersky]

From my perspective, and all other townies, if that's true, I'm looking for a total of 4 bad guys in 11 instead of 14.  Much better odds.

[ashersky]

Let's ask.

Are the three green names Mod-confirmed town?

[ashersky]

Pick Your Power doesn't have ICs, of course.

[faust]

Let's ask.

Are the three green names Mod-confirmed town?

This is how it I set the game up: I chose 15 "good" philosophers. Everyone got assigned one of them. Then I randomly distributed scum roles. Everyone with a scum role would get the "good" philosopher assigned to them as fakeclaim. Flavor was written prior to these assignments.

[faust]

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do."
- Voltaire

Vote Count 1.7

Teproc (1): XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
yuma (1): Voltaire
jotheonah (3): mail-mi, Robz888, theorel
A Drowned Kernel (3): mcmcsalot, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW
Voltaire (2): yuma, A Drowned Kernel


Not voting (4): ashersky, jothenoah, scott_pilgrim, Axxle

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[XerxesPraelor]

Can someone explain the cases on nothing, ADK, and Voltaire? I've been paying more attention to the other game I'm in, and want to figure out who to vote for.

[ashersky]

Let's ask.

Are the three green names Mod-confirmed town?

This is how it I set the game up: I chose 15 "good" philosophers. Everyone got assigned one of them. Then I randomly distributed scum roles. Everyone with a scum role would get the "good" philosopher assigned to them as fakeclaim. Flavor was written prior to these assignments.

Gotcha.

Sorry Axxle, IC theory shot down.

[Teproc]

Request a prod on jotheonah

I really don't like the "lynch a lurker" thing. The problem is it gives everyone on the wagon an excuse in the lurker flips town and thus robs us of the info we would normally get from the flip. I think lynching active people can actually be very good, because it gives us info, and nature hates emptiness : ie when you lynch the most active people, other will become more active.

And I'm not too worried about this game being a bit slow anyway, I think a lot of that is RMM13.

[theorel]

Request a prod on jotheonah

I really don't like the "lynch a lurker" thing. The problem is it gives everyone on the wagon an excuse in the lurker flips town and thus robs us of the info we would normally get from the flip. I think lynching active people can actually be very good, because it gives us info, and nature hates emptiness : ie when you lynch the most active people, other will become more active.

And I'm not too worried about this game being a bit slow anyway, I think a lot of that is RMM13.

In my experience, this just isn't true though.  When you lynch the most active people, you end up with a game where no one posts, and non-posting scum coast to victory.

When "Lynch all Lurkers, Literally" was a thing, it was because this kind of thing happened.

[faust]

Request a prod on jotheonah

Prod sent.

[yuma]

I think peeps should go reread both voltaire and teproc. Then pick which one is scummier and vote! That is probably how to win the game!

DO IT!

[Robz888]

I think peeps should go reread both voltaire and teproc. Then pick which one is scummier and vote! That is probably how to win the game!

DO IT!

I like the attitude. Town points for you.

[Voltaire]

I think peeps should go reread both voltaire and teproc. Then pick which one is scummier and vote! That is probably how to win the game!

DO IT!

Well, this would be terrible since I'm town and I think Teproc is town.

[jotheonah]

I have actually just been really really unexpectedly busy all week. And the longer I wait the more there is to re-read. How about someone summarize the major happenings so far for me, I'll jump in now, and I'll re-read tonight or something when I manage to get some time?

   

[jotheonah]

you guys know I'm not a lurker. usually quite the opposite. When is the deadline/how long do I have to catch up?

[mail-mi]

Request a prod on jotheonah

I really don't like the "lynch a lurker" thing. The problem is it gives everyone on the wagon an excuse in the lurker flips town and thus robs us of the info we would normally get from the flip. I think lynching active people can actually be very good, because it gives us info, and nature hates emptiness : ie when you lynch the most active people, other will become more active.

And I'm not too worried about this game being a bit slow anyway, I think a lot of that is RMM13.

What theorel said. When you lynch the most active people, most of the time people won't get more active if all the actives are lynched.

[theorel]

you guys know I'm not a lurker. usually quite the opposite. When is the deadline/how long do I have to catch up?

Deadline is Tuesday (April 8th), at 10am. Which gives you 5 days.

Very little has actually happened.  This has been a pretty slow game.  Maybe it'll pick up, but we're headed into a weekend.
Summary of events from my perspective:
yuma/Teproc had a fight because yuma had a SK-plan and Teproc thought it was scummy and yuma thought Teproc was basically policy-voting him.
Voltaire agreed with Teproc with some one-liners, which I found scummy (as a stoke the fire-type thing), and yuma agreed.
ADK jumped around in his votes, and some people voted for him.
Robz and I simultaneously decided to pursue lurkers, and both chose you.

Really though, this games been pretty quiet, I can't imagine it will take all that long to catch up.

[jotheonah]

Robz chose me? Ouch.

[jotheonah]

There was a flavor claim! I'm my favorite philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard.

[Voltaire]

Town read on Axxle for trying the IC thing.

[jotheonah]

This is pretty quiet for a 15-player game.  But I guess RMM13 is going strong, and has several crossover players.
I'm gonna vote: joth to see if he shows up.  Pretty sure he's the only person who actually hasn't posted.

I dig it. vote: joth

Vote: mail-mi

for taking a break from lurking just long enough to vote someone for lurking. hypocrisy bugs me.

(And don't say I'm doing the same thing -- I'm not voting him for lurking, I'm voting him for hypocrisy. AND lurking.)

[jotheonah]

early townreads: yuma, theorel, and (weirldy for me) ash

early scumreads: Robz (for going after a lot of easy targets) and ADK

[jotheonah]

Aw man, the wagon on me is dying before it gets really going? It's been a long time since a good ol' fashioned D1 Voltaire wagon.

whoop whoop scum alert scum alert

[Voltaire]

Aw man, the wagon on me is dying before it gets really going? It's been a long time since a good ol' fashioned D1 Voltaire wagon.

whoop whoop scum alert scum alert

Why? It's very amusing to me how people see this "obviously" scummy thing.

[jotheonah]

Request a prod on jotheonah

I really don't like the "lynch a lurker" thing. The problem is it gives everyone on the wagon an excuse in the lurker flips town and thus robs us of the info we would normally get from the flip. I think lynching active people can actually be very good, because it gives us info, and nature hates emptiness : ie when you lynch the most active people, other will become more active.

And I'm not too worried about this game being a bit slow anyway, I think a lot of that is RMM13.

In my experience, this just isn't true though.  When you lynch the most active people, you end up with a game where no one posts, and non-posting scum coast to victory.

When "Lynch all Lurkers, Literally" was a thing, it was because this kind of thing happened.

This is so true. For a recent example, see Super Mario Mafia

[Axxle]

I guess what interests me is why are people voting for Teproc, I still don't really get it.  Are all four of those votes actually serious?

Oh, well at least theorel has moved his vote since then.  But I was wondering theorel why did you vote for Teproc when you gave Robz a higher scum score.  Do you base your vote off of like a product of scum score and number of votes that person already has?  (Well plus a constant or something because otherwise you would automatically not lynch anyone who doesn't have any votes.)

Wait the four count is still right because yuma has voted Teproc since the last vote count, I confused myself.  4+1-1=4.  Okay I'm done talking to myself now.

Since when did scott become me?

[jotheonah]

Aw man, the wagon on me is dying before it gets really going? It's been a long time since a good ol' fashioned D1 Voltaire wagon.

whoop whoop scum alert scum alert

Why? It's very amusing to me how people see this "obviously" scummy thing.

It's like ... So basically you're ironically posting that you want to have a wagon on you. That's not the kind of thing town does. That's the kind of thing scum does, because scum thinks it will seem like the kind of thing scum doesn't do. It's like "look how easy and casual I am about the idea of getting lynched D1." It's a very scummy posting style.

[Axxle]

Aw man, the wagon on me is dying before it gets really going? It's been a long time since a good ol' fashioned D1 Voltaire wagon.

whoop whoop scum alert scum alert

Why? It's very amusing to me how people see this "obviously" scummy thing.

It's like ... So basically you're ironically posting that you want to have a wagon on you. That's not the kind of thing town does. That's the kind of thing scum does, because scum thinks it will seem like the kind of thing scum doesn't do. It's like "look how easy and casual I am about the idea of getting lynched D1." It's a very scummy posting style.

I do it as town.
I've never played with Voltaire so don't know if he's the type to as well.

[scott_pilgrim]

I guess what interests me is why are people voting for Teproc, I still don't really get it.  Are all four of those votes actually serious?

Oh, well at least theorel has moved his vote since then.  But I was wondering theorel why did you vote for Teproc when you gave Robz a higher scum score.  Do you base your vote off of like a product of scum score and number of votes that person already has?  (Well plus a constant or something because otherwise you would automatically not lynch anyone who doesn't have any votes.)

Wait the four count is still right because yuma has voted Teproc since the last vote count, I confused myself.  4+1-1=4.  Okay I'm done talking to myself now.

Since when did scott become me?

Since this was philosopher's mafia!  Is it getting solipsistic in here or is it just me?

[jotheonah]

I believe you do, because I know you and I know your meta. Coming from Voltaire up there, it felt forced and I didn't like it.

But I'm not like voting him over it or anything. Let's talk about mail-mi. I mean, having one of your 5 posts be voting someone else for lurking? Does anyone else find that a bit gross?

[jotheonah]

(the you above was Axxle)

[jotheonah]

scott_pilgrim wasn't much better with his "I'm lurking, but joth's lurking more so vote him." Survivalist much? If you don't want to get lynched for lurking, post more. Don't point the finger of blame at the next biggest lurker.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm shocked by the lack of lurker solidarity here.

[ashersky]

Townread on Joth at this point.  This is basically exactly the same joth that got called out for lurking and then starting posting a lot in Super Mario.

[Axxle]

I believe you do, because I know you and I know your meta. Coming from Voltaire up there, it felt forced and I didn't like it.

But I'm not like voting him over it or anything. Let's talk about mail-mi. I mean, having one of your 5 posts be voting someone else for lurking? Does anyone else find that a bit gross?

maybe. I'm thinking of voting Andrew though since his play here (nonexistent) is so much different than Adventure Time (trying to figure things out, and doing a damn good job at it).

I'm only at about post 250 on a full read so i'm holding off.

[Robz888]

There was a flavor claim! I'm my favorite philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard.

Soren is the best. Soren quotes are so great. Lucky you!

[Axxle]

Isn't sorin a vampire?

[Robz888]

I think I want to vote for Scotty. Vote: Scott Pilgrim

He's sort of lurky and his contributions read scummy to me. Forced, maybe.

[Axxle]

I don't know how many of the new players have played with multiple scumteams before, but both scum will be scumhunting at least a bit, mafia is going to try to find sk and sk is going to try to find mafia. Don't necessarily townread someone because they look like they're genuinely scumhunting. I mean they have other objectives too but that's a wrench we need to work around.

[scott_pilgrim]

Town read on Axxle for trying the IC thing.

I don't think it's townie at all.  If I were scum I would totally try to bring up something like that for towncred (especially if I knew it wasn't going to work anyway, which I think Axxle would have if he were scum).

[ashersky]

Town read on Axxle for trying the IC thing.

I don't think it's townie at all.  If I were scum I would totally try to bring up something like that for towncred (especially if I knew it wasn't going to work anyway, which I think Axxle would have if he were scum).

I actually think scum doesn't know that, unless they were one of the three green ones.  Then yeah, they definitely bring it up.

So slight scum read on this post from Scott.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I believe you do, because I know you and I know your meta. Coming from Voltaire up there, it felt forced and I didn't like it.

But I'm not like voting him over it or anything. Let's talk about mail-mi. I mean, having one of your 5 posts be voting someone else for lurking? Does anyone else find that a bit gross?

maybe. I'm thinking of voting Andrew though since his play here (nonexistent) is so much different than Adventure Time (trying to figure things out, and doing a damn good job at it).

I'm only at about post 250 on a full read so i'm holding off.

Yeah I know I'm fully aware. I was in three games at one point (ZM18 just ended so I'm in two now), and I've just been busy anyway. I'm on my way down to FL right now. Also Adventure Time was my first game (and best game? Did I peak?) and my play has changed a lot since then. I definitely don't want to lurk though, so hopefully I can get back into this one soon.

[Axxle]

He should stop because he's wrong though !

Who were you mad at it Star Wars yuma ? Because I don't think it was me or XP was it ?

Where are mail-mi and sudgy ? I think joth and ash are V/LA, and Axxle will apparently be posting soon, so these two seem to be the big lurkers in this game.

Ha, fooled you!

[Axxle]

I believe you do, because I know you and I know your meta. Coming from Voltaire up there, it felt forced and I didn't like it.

But I'm not like voting him over it or anything. Let's talk about mail-mi. I mean, having one of your 5 posts be voting someone else for lurking? Does anyone else find that a bit gross?

maybe. I'm thinking of voting Andrew though since his play here (nonexistent) is so much different than Adventure Time (trying to figure things out, and doing a damn good job at it).

I'm only at about post 250 on a full read so i'm holding off.

Yeah I know I'm fully aware. I was in three games at one point (ZM18 just ended so I'm in two now), and I've just been busy anyway. I'm on my way down to FL right now. Also Adventure Time was my first game (and best game? Did I peak?) and my play has changed a lot since then. I definitely don't want to lurk though, so hopefully I can get back into this one soon.

You're getting better around 300. Still reserving judgement though.

[theorel]

Yeah, that sounds like town-joth. unvote

y'know lurking mail-mi reminds me of MXXX.  I'm going to join my new town-read and vote: mail-mi

[mail-mi]

Okay okay I'm here for a little bit.

Let's see what is there, oooh two votes on me, that's fun, yeah I'm lurking but I'll try to be more active now.

Joth reads townier to me now that he's back, unvote.

I think I want to vote for Scotty. Vote: Scott Pilgrim

He's sort of lurky and his contributions read scummy to me. Forced, maybe.

And he seems different from his past town games. vote: scotty

[Robz888]

Yeah, that sounds like town-joth. unvote

y'know lurking mail-mi reminds me of MXXX.  I'm going to join my new town-read and vote: mail-mi

Mail-mi has been EXTREMELY lurky as town lately.

[ashersky]

Yeah, that sounds like town-joth. unvote

y'know lurking mail-mi reminds me of MXXX.  I'm going to join my new town-read and vote: mail-mi

Mail-mi has been EXTREMELY lurky as town lately.

Fixed.

[ashersky]

vote: scott

Wagon pressure vote.

[ashersky]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

Why didn't yuma vote SP here?

[yuma]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

Why didn't yuma vote SP here?

Why would I? And why me specifically? I don't see the connection...

[Robz888]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

Why didn't yuma vote SP here?

Why would I? And why me specifically? I don't see the connection...

I think, because you used to be known for punishing self-voters. It's sort of a weak point for ashersky to raise, I think.

[ashersky]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

Why didn't yuma vote SP here?

Why would I? And why me specifically? I don't see the connection...

I think, because you used to be known for punishing self-voters. It's sort of a weak point for ashersky to raise, I think.

Not so much a "weak point" as a "bad joke."

[Robz888]

Oh. I read it as serious.

[ashersky]

Oh. I read it as serious.

Definitely not serious.

[ashersky]

The self-vote/post/self-unvote thing did seem contrived, though.

[XerxesPraelor]

The self-vote/post/self-unvote thing did seem contrived, though.

I read it on my phone, which has enough space to read the posts but not see who wrote it unless I check, so I had a good laugh when I saw it was him.

Anyway, I re-read a bit to try to boost my participation and I think vote: voltaire is the best option. He seems to have town-reads on almost everyone.

[mcmcsalot]

Town read on Axxle for trying the IC thing.

Axxle actually strikes me as less controversially jokey then normal and the ic thing is something scum is almost more likely to bring up(in reality it's null)

[mcmcsalot]

XerxesPraelor is right, Voltaire had a strong town read I ash for no reason and a own read of axxle for what I think is a bogus reason, scum manufacturing town reads?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think scott's self vote thing is pretty null. I also don't know anything about scott's meta, same with a lot people in this game. So yeah, I'm pretty lost at this point. Does anything see anything else in ADK's posts? There isn't much but it seems like he's trying hard to contribute even if he's got nothing to say, which is fine... unless you're scum trying to fool town into thinking you've actually got reads and opinions on people whose actions aren't suspicious at all. A slight scum read is whatever, but most of the time voting (to me) tells everyone you think this person is likely to flip scum and you're willing to lynch them today.

So ADK. Are your votes pressure votes? Do you see scum in Axxle, yuma, or Volt? Please enlighten us.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Town read on Axxle for trying the IC thing.

Axxle actually strikes me as less controversially jokey then normal and the ic thing is something scum is almost more likely to bring up(in reality it's null)

I noticed too but I'm just going off his play in Adventure Time.

[Teproc]

And he seems different from his past town games. vote: scotty

How so ?

The IC thing is null, no way that was ever going to happen. Scum!Axxle pointed out Eevee's breadcrumb on Robz in Adventure Time, so he's certainly capable of that kind of stuff... especialy since it's just free town cred, no way flavor would actually give us ICs.

As for Voltaire, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but having a gazillion town reads way too early seems like his usual self to me. I think you could look at DWII to see similar things, he got a bunch of absurdly strong reads early on, probably exaggerated to have people react.

[yuma]

I think, because you used to be known for punishing self-voters. It's sort of a weak point for ashersky to raise, I think.

Oh. I guess I missed it then, even when it was quoted above it didn't register that it was scott voting for himself cause otherwise I would have. I still don't like self-voting so some scum points to scott!

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.8

XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
yuma (1): Voltaire
A Drowned Kernel (3): mcmcsalot, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW
Voltaire (3): yuma, A Drowned Kernel, XerxesPraelor
mail-mi (2): jotheonah, Theorel
scott_pilgrim (3): Robz888, mail-mi, ashersky


Not voting (2): scott_pilgrim, Axxle

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[jotheonah]

vote:ADK

Moving to a more popular wagon to speed things along. ADK's play has seemed off to me. +mcmcsalot and Teproc are town reads for me right now, whereas people on the Scotty wagon are not.

[Voltaire]

XerxesPraelor is right, Voltaire had a strong town read I ash for no reason and a own read of axxle for what I think is a bogus reason, scum manufacturing town reads?

Town not actively following this game due to other ongoing games. You may think the reason is bogus, I don't. I've noticed axxle has recently been all about that sort of stuff (which is pretty meaningless to me) but it's what he's been doing as town.

I am now way less certain about ash.

Yes, I only have town reads so far.

[Voltaire]

As for Voltaire, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but having a gazillion town reads way too early seems like his usual self to me. I think you could look at DWII to see similar things, he got a bunch of absurdly strong reads early on, probably exaggerated to have people react.

Wait, people think this is actually a thing? There's 15 players in this game and I have town reads on the more active players (which is normal for me): ash, axxle, Robz, Teproc. Wow, 4/15. obv!scum.

[Voltaire]

unvote

[yuma]

unvote

Victory is mine! Ha Ha Ha!

[Voltaire]

unvote

Victory is mine! Ha Ha Ha!

Yeah yeah we all knew you'd win anyway. 

[theorel]

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

[yuma]

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why scott over voltaire if your goal is equality and justice for all?

[jotheonah]

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why two equal wagons?

[mcmcsalot]

I have no idea why I am currently voting for Adk...swapped at work so I can't do too much but I'll be at my parents for the weekend so I can be extra active!

[theorel]

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why two equal wagons?

To give people more options in hopes of getting better interactions.

Basically, I'm defaulting to a random lurker-lynch.  I don't find any of the active players to be sufficiently scummy that I really want to lynch them over a lurker.  I don't find any of the lurkers sufficiently scummier than the others to really want to lynch one of them over another.  But maybe some players have actual reasons to prefer one over another (i.e. one is a partner).  In that case, alternate apparently-viable wagons can be useful for gleaning interactions.

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why scott over voltaire if your goal is equality and justice for all?

Because scott is in the lurky lurker groups while Voltaire is not.  Also, scott's wagon has Robz and ash, while Voltaire's wagon only has you.  Also also, I remembered that I often have scum-reads on Voltaire when he's town, so I'm trusting that scum-read less, even if I still think the argument is okay generally.

[theorel]

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why two equal wagons?

To give people more options in hopes of getting better interactions.

Basically, I'm defaulting to a random lurker-lynch.  I don't find any of the active players to be sufficiently scummy that I really want to lynch them over a lurker.  I don't find any of the lurkers sufficiently scummier than the others to really want to lynch one of them over another.  But maybe some players have actual reasons to prefer one over another (i.e. one is a partner).  In that case, alternate apparently-viable wagons can be useful for gleaning interactions.

vote: scott_pilgrim to make two equal wagons.

why scott over voltaire if your goal is equality and justice for all?

Because scott is in the lurky lurker groups while Voltaire is not.  Also, scott's wagon has Robz and ash, while Voltaire's wagon only has you.  Also also, I remembered that I often have scum-reads on Voltaire when he's town, so I'm trusting that scum-read less, even if I still think the argument is okay generally.

(fixed quote fail)

[sudgy]

Could somebody sum up the cases on scott and Voltaire?

[Robz888]

Could somebody sum up the cases on scott and Voltaire?

Scott: Lurker. When he has contributed, it was a bit too meta and forced.

Voltaire: He egged on some feud between Yuma and I think Teproc.

I'm personally against lynching Voltaire. It's too severe a mistake to make on Day 1, in absence of stronger evidence.

[yuma]

I'm personally against lynching Voltaire. It's too severe a mistake to make on Day 1, in absence of stronger evidence.

And I say no one is above being lynched on day1.

Now there is an argument for lynching lurkers over more active players, but I wouldn't really put voltaire into the active category. He egged the stuff on between us, what else has he done that puts him above scotty or mail-mi.... I can't think of much.

[Voltaire]

Egged on? I had a scum read, I expressed it with a comment, explanation, and vote. What did you want me to do?

[scott_pilgrim]

I just reread most of this game.  My thoughts on each player:

1.   Teproc - Big on no theory talk, I think he cared about it too much regardless of alignment (not necessarily in a bad way, just in a sort of unexpected way).  I think I'm leaning town on him.
2.   XerxesPraelor - Don't remember much from him.  I think he made a few comments earlier on that weren't really indicative of anything.  I would like to hear more from him.
3.   yuma - He has been giving good thoughts on theory discussion and comments on other players, which feel legitimate to me.  Slight town.
4.   Robz888 - Not sure, seems consistent with how he was in DoP and Super Mario, which was scum in the former and town in the latter.  I don't know how to read him...
5.   Voltaire - Something about him feels scummy.  Town reads on a lot of players, I mean I guess 11/15 or 12/15 are town, and then says frustrated yuma is scum yuma which I think is just not true.  Slight scum
6.   jotheonah - Never posted for a while, then when he did I think he basically just said he would post more later.  Which is fine assuming he does find time to post.  I guess I'm leaning town on him, similar to how he responded in Super Mario when people called him out for lurking.
7.   sudgy - I don't remember much from him either...
8.   Axxle - Null
9.   mail-mi - Seems pretty lurky, null
10. theorel - Has provided a lot of useful theory discussion and helped get the game rolling with his big reads post, feels like town to me but I've never played with him before.  Either way I don't think I would lynch him today based on his contributions.
11.  A Drowned Kernel - I agree with other people saying he seems a little different from usual, but I can't pinpoint why.  I think he's slightly scummy because of that but not enough for me to vote him now (I know I hate it when someone votes for me without giving me any reasons I can defend myself against, so I won't do that to him).
12.  AndrewisFTTW - Seems pretty normal, I have not seen him as scum so I don't know if he plays differently then but I guess he feels slightly townie to me.
13.  scott_pilgrim - Obviously town
14.  mcmcsalot - I'm not really sure what to think here.  In the games I've played with him, I've thought he was scum, and he turned out to be town, so I've started learning that whenever I think he's scum, he's actually town.  He seems different in this game, maybe not posting as much or expressing opinions on other players?  Slight scum
15.  ashersky - I have no idea what to think about ash.  He hasn't posted much, which is very different from how he was in Super Mario, where he was scum.  So the difference in playstyle doesn't make him town, since I expect him to be good at changing his playstyle regularly regardless of alignment.  Right now I'm null.

So based on that I could vote Voltaire or maybe mcmc or ADK, but there are still players I don't think we've heard from enough to make an informed decision (yeah I know I haven't been contributing so much either, but hopefully this post will help).

vote: XerxesPraelor

[yuma]

I'll go to vote: scott

only L-3... with so many people it takes 8 to lynch... this might be difficult based off how other games of more than 13 players has gone...

[Robz888]

@Scott:

While I appreciate that effort... it doesn't do much for me. I'm barely going to actually read that post (unless you flip scum: Then I'll scrutinize every word of it). I mean, mostly you're saying "seems X, could by Y, null read..." Which, I don't blame you. There's a lot of people, I feel similarly about most at this point. And early reads are just usually wrong.

I think it's much better to decide on someone you think could actually be scum, or call out specifically scummy behavior, or shout down people advocating lynches of people you have strong town reads on.

Just some advice. And also, a partial explanation of why I find you sort of scummy.

[AndrewisFTTW]

At this point I could vote for whoever. Just like yuma said, 8 is a big number and I realized how difficult it could potentially be to get a lynch through if we don't cooperate. That said, at this point I would like to lynch ADK, Axxle or Scott.

[jotheonah]

At this point I could vote for whoever.

vote: AndrewisFTTW

[jotheonah]

a little too much voting for anybody ITT. what happens then is the easiest lynch gets through. the easiest lynch is rarely on scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

a little too much voting for anybody ITT. what happens then is the easiest lynch gets through. the easiest lynch is rarely on scum.

If a lot of people present a good case, I'm not going to sit back and refuse to participate. I also don't see a good case on anyone right now so I'm willing to listen.

[Teproc]

Not sure about a scott_pilgrim lynch. I see why people find him scummy, but I thought he was scum in DoP and Super Mario for somewhat similar reasons to those being brought up here... and he was town in both.

However I disagree with Robz about reads posts, and am a little annoyed that Robz doesn't even read them, apparently. I mostly do them because they help me organize my thoughts, but they often provide lots of stuff to respond to. They're also a little tricky to do as scum because you have to be wary of how it will look once some flips have happened.

[yuma]

So one interesting thing I like to look at when lurker lynches come up is which lurkers aren't getting any heat... or at least less heat.

Because if you are scum and are suggesting a lurker lynch I think it less likely you are going to point the arrow at a scummate... Now it is possible that a town member can kinda just randomly point a finger at a scum player so that should be taken into consideration....

So this is mostly a list of which players have been accused of being scummy for lurking and by whom at this point in the game...

So first lets establish who is "lurking" - pre-game included

1.   Teproc - 57 - normal
2.   XerxesPraelor - 9 "lurker"
3.   yuma - 44 - normal
4.   Robz888 - 56 - active Robz! weird
5.   Voltaire - 44 - normal
6.   jotheonah - 18 "lurker"
7.   sudgy - 9 "lurker"
8.   Axxle - 38 - surprised it is this high since I can't remember anything in particular from him
9.   mail-mi - 16 "lurker"
10. theorel - 30 - normal
11.  A Drowned Kernel - 13 "lurker"
12.  AndrewisFTTW - 26 "semi-lurker"
13.  scott_pilgrim - 15 "lurker"
14.  mcmcsalot - 17 "lurker"
15.  ashersky - 32 - low but semi-VLA

So for this purpose I am going to include all the "lurkers" plus Andrew and Axxle:

I think the first discussion of "lurking" begins on post 227 via theorel

Xerxes - votes for lurking
jotheonah - theorel votes; mail=mi votes; scott says to vote him instead; yuma asks about joth; andrew suggests lynching; Robz votes;theo votes joth after mentioning a few others;
sudgy - teproc calls out
Axxle - ADK votes for leaving conversation
mail-mi - teproc calls out; votes for hypocrisy; theorel votes
ADK -  Robz calls out
Andrew - says andrew is non-existent; robz votes;
scott - Robz calls out; joth notes for lurking; mail-mi votes; theo votes for lurking
mcmc

man... the inside of all those quotes gets shrunken down a lot!
Anways... interestingly mcmc has received no flak from not being around much, but I actually do remember a lot of what he has said, so maybe that is fair.

I don't think scum is in scott or joth unvote.

I could see scum more easily in Xerxes, ADK, sudgy or Axxle more so than the rest.

but really the main thing that stuck out to me while I reread is still how scummy I think teproc and voltaire are. I don't know if both are scum, but I feel that one is. There is some buddying going on there that is just uncomfortable--regardless of whether or not there is a history there--and of protecting each other against scumreads and suspicion. It just doesn't feel right to me. I am relatively confident one of them at least is mafia...

People should considering voting one of them!

vote: voltaire

[Voltaire]

but really the main thing that stuck out to me while I reread is still how scummy I think teproc and voltaire are. I don't know if both are scum, but I feel that one is. There is some buddying going on there that is just uncomfortable--regardless of whether or not there is a history there--and of protecting each other against scumreads and suspicion. It just doesn't feel right to me. I am relatively confident one of them at least is mafia...

Really? You're willing to just throw away 1) established meta/history which is real, and 2) the idea that two townies are good at reading each other? (If Teproc thinks I'm town, I honestly forget)

Yuma pointed out how active Robz is and that gives me an even bigger town read on Robz. Which isn't terribly helpful right now.

Looking at post-counts, I'd lurker-lynch...

6.   jotheonah - 18 "lurker"
9.   mail-mi - 16 "lurker"
11.  A Drowned Kernel - 13 "lurker"
13.  scott_pilgrim - 15 "lurker"
14.  mcmcsalot - 17 "lurker"

any of these guys. Though I'd have to re-read SP since he did stuff to get heat apparently as a lurker and that's unusual.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Volt, sudgy and XP are both at 9 votes. If you want to lurkwr-lynch, why not lurker-lynch one of them?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I meant 9 posts.

[yuma]

Really? You're willing to just throw away 1) established meta/history which is real, and 2) the idea that two townies are good at reading each other? (If Teproc thinks I'm town, I honestly forget)

I am saying that a meta-history is soooo easy to hide behind. Or at least it is a convenient place to hide behind and one that I think can be overdone, which is what I think is happening here. And I am not throwing away the idea that you are both townie. I am not convinced I am right--I am not that egocentric to ever believe I have a 100% read on someone--I am considering it, but my consideration right now points me at thinking one of you is scum at least. That is my read...

But you are turning it into something else making out to look the bad guy who is being manipulative or throwing caution to the wind. How do you know I am not considering these things?

[Voltaire]

Because the literally-lowest posters are usually town. I backed this up with data once.

[yuma]

Because the literally-lowest posters are usually town. I backed this up with data once.

I would agree with this assessment as a general data trend

[AndrewisFTTW]

Because the literally-lowest posters are usually town. I backed this up with data once.

Word.

[Voltaire]

But you are turning it into something else making out to look the bad guy who is being manipulative or throwing caution to the wind. How do you know I am not considering these things?

Oh god, this is the most forced thing ever. Yes, yuma, I claimed to read your mind. I totally wrote that. You can quote it and everything!

So you considered it. I'm upset that you appear to have reached the wrong conclusion.

Didn't you say fight like hell if someone thinks one of your town reads is scum and is trying to lynch them? Well, that's me and/or Teproc!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'd rather lynch Teproc than Volt.

[yuma]

I guess I just don't understand how at the point in the game when this started either of you could have formed such strong reads to "fight like hell" then...

Maybe at this point, but not days and days ago...

[Voltaire]

The other thing is, if Teproc's scum I'm confident I can catch him later. So as much as you will also disagree with this, he's a don't-lync-day-1 type for me too.

[yuma]

yeah... that is lame.

Why can't you catch anyone else on later days. That holds true for everyone, everyone is easier to read on later days

[Voltaire]

Yeah, but he's easier. You're telling me there's no-one you're better reading than others?

[yuma]

Yeah, but he's easier. You're telling me there's no-one you're better reading than others?

I thought so at one time, but at this point... no I don't. I think that was a fallacy I allowed myself to get trapped into. I am equally horrible at reading people all the time (so yeah, I am not super confident about my being confident one of you or Teproc is scum... but I have to do something here don't I?) Maybe newbies I have a harder time with, but even that has been proven wrong as I have been pretty good at finding newbie scum...

[Voltaire]

's fine then. I'm not changing the way I play, though.

[yuma]

Ok... but really we have gotten off topic.

To reiterate... I think teproc is scummy because:

1. he attempted to use a "policy vote" (yes I am going to continue calling it that despite our conversation about it... which I don't think anyone wants to get into again) against me and then sought out ways to later justify it
2. has gone out of his way to defend voltaire in a situation where I don't think he should have had such a strong townread on him
3. accusing me of OMGUS and attempting to discredit him when I believe that was apparently not the case.
4. has used a "meta" to justify this--really that I one thing that keeps me coming back to Teproc. Everything he has done this game has been based off meta-reads. Policy voting, townread on Voltaire, not liking claiming. Nothing seems new or original to this game. It is like he is sticking to what he is and not deviating from it in an attempt to seem authentic where I think true authenticity goes with the ebbs and flow and can deviate as the shape of the game adapts...

I think Voltaire is scummy because:
1. of the way he "well egged I guess I can't use" but flamed (is that ok) the fire of suspicion on me during my exchange with Teproc, again on something that was solely meta based--but this time certainly not true... my supposed tendency to only be frustrated as scum.
2. his sheeping and defending of teproc, again at a very early stage where I think it perhaps a bit unlikely that such a strong townread could be formed
3. also I found the quick to state ash as town, then backing off that as time went by to be a bit scummy
4. the fake irony thing joth pointed out


Add in that I feel that my argument with Teproc felt similar--if the content wasn't exactly the same--as my argument with Robz in Diffusion of Power--in regard to how everyone else responded to it... basically "meh, yuma is arguing again"

[Voltaire]

4. has used a "meta" to justify this--really that I one thing that keeps me coming back to Teproc. Everything he has done this game has been based off meta-reads. Policy voting, townread on Voltaire, not liking claiming. Nothing seems new or original to this game. It is like he is sticking to what he is and not deviating from it in an attempt to seem authentic where I think true authenticity goes with the ebbs and flow and can deviate as the shape of the game adapts...

Now that is actually interesting.

Also, lurker vote vote: jotheonah.

[yuma]

Also, lurker vote vote: jotheonah.

Really? joth?

Do you disagree with my assessment about lurkers that I laid out a few posts ago?

And even if you do disagree about that I think you must be voting completely off post counts, because while he is lower, I think his content has been good and high since he finally showed up. Your post count would be pretty low too if you weren't around for the first 4 days.

[Voltaire]

Oh, right. unvote. I still haven't read this game in full.

vote: ADK then. Does that meet your approval?

[jotheonah]

vote: voltaire

this is a lynch of substance.

plus my read on Volt has been getting steadily scummier.

plus I like lynching one of two people who have had a real 1v1 conflict, it gives good info.

[Voltaire]

this is a lynch of substance.

plus my read on Volt has been getting steadily scummier.

Why?

[Voltaire]

WHY

[Voltaire]

Drunk re-reading this thread since apparently I'm #*%%&ing up enough to get mislynched D1...

[Voltaire]

Idea: flavor claim. Thoughts?

vote: robz Bandwagon!

Is scum the first to bring this up? I lean no. Tiny town-points for mail-mi.

[Voltaire]

very scummy of Voltaire to just skip past it...

People have been after me since the start. It gives me an ego.

[Voltaire]

This is beyond pointless by the way, but I'm René Descartes.

I doubt that this is a serious vote.

Better ?

OK, this actually looks scummy.

[Voltaire]

It sounds like you know scum has fake claims rather than suspect

I thought you were making a joke about the fact that I sounded certain of something while claiming René Descartes.

oh, duh

[Voltaire]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

Yeah, man, those guys need to post more...vote: scott_pilgrim

Okay I'm here, sorry.  So far it looks like people have just been talking about theory, and whether they should be talking about theory.  I don't mind theory talk but I don't think anyone has come up with anything big and I don't expect them to.  The SK plan seems pointless, they should already have decided for themselves whether to claim.  I think there's this idea that once we stop talking about theory suddenly people will get into arguments and the social deduction mayhem will ensue, but I don’t see why they can’t coincide, I mean maybe it clutters up the thread, so that's a thing.

Has anyone done anything scummy yet?  I don't think so, I guess I'm kind of in spectator mode until something exciting happens, which I know is not the best way to play but there you go.  Man I feel like I say that every game D1.  You guys can vote me for lurking if you like, but joth has posted less than me so why not vote him instead.

Okay instead of being super unhelpful let me try to think about what has happened this game.  People talked about theory.  Then people talked about whether they should talk about theory.  Teproc cluttered up the thread a bit talking about how theory talk clutters up the thread, whether he netted a positive or negative or equal amount of clutter by saying that over and over again, I don't know.  But is he scummy for it?  I mean I feel like maybe there's something there, but really it just doesn't tell us anything.  Robz hasn't claimed IC status yet, so that's something.  I guess what interests me is why are people voting for Teproc, I still don't really get it.  Are all four of those votes actually serious?  (Not "actually" as in are you guys crazy, "actually" as in I'm making sure I know what's happening.)  And if they are I assume they're like, well this is the scummiest we've seen but I'm just waiting to see what happens, and not like, let's lynch Teproc guys he's totally scum.

Thank you for that profoundly insightful post, unvote

BLAH

[Voltaire]

So it seems like people have stopped talking about theory and have are now talking about whether people should be lynched for wanting to talk about theory or not wanting to talk about theory, but...

People have brought up the possibility of number-claiming, and isn't that something we'd pretty much have to do day one in order for it to be useful? I assume that information isn't included in the flip. For that matter, would a converted SK flip as such, or would they flip as a VT?

As to who's scummy or not: it's hard to tell since most of the talk has been theory talk (besides the random wagon on Andrew) or people arguing over whether theory talk is good or not, and I have no real experience with that matter- I've never been in a game where a mass claim happened early on. I do find Axxle a little scummy for his repeated "I'll be back when theory talk is over", you can talk about stuff while other people are talking you know, or even try to stop them from doing it. Making excuses to lurk at the very least seems anti-town.

Vote: Axxle

This is a deceptively empty post. Vote: ADK

CORRECT

[Voltaire]

Yuma, I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't think his case has merit, but I don't know that he's scummy for it. I think you're trying to win the argument too hard.

fine. unvote

let me know when you want my input

Oh uh. This is actually a scum!yuma trait.

Seeeee? I did this after yuma changed the way he was behaving, that jumped way the out at me. That is making a case/pointing something out, not fanning the flames.

But re-thinking this, eh. Not D1, probably town, whatever.

[Voltaire]

and then the thread becomes nonsense about me.

SUMMARY
Scummy - S_P, ADK - both say this game sucks, why does it suck, doesn't do anything to make it not suck, theorel - first to say I fan the flames, not much substance in posts? maybe? Gut feel scummy

Town - yuma (this is re-energized yuma - obstinate!), Robz (town Robz lurks D1, he'd be conscious of that as scum, this is also re-energized town!Robz or at least it is this D1!), Teproc (WE SHARE A HIVEBRAIN)

- ash (why did I have the town read? oh right some WIFOM about his giant post about how he broke the original setup, that was why)

vote: ADK feels great. Really great!

Next post will be the "who didn't I mention?" post.

[Voltaire]

A ton of people!

2.   XerxesPraelor - too lurk to lurk
6.   jotheonah - yuma snapped so eh
7.   sudgy - too lurk to lurk
8.   Axxle - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. reads super-scummy but he's always flipped town when I've thought that since his return and pretty sure this is our first game.
9.   mail-mi - argh no read
12.  AndrewisFTTW - oh weird he disappeared
14.  mcmcsalot - not lynching today for personal reasons

[Voltaire]

[AndrewisFTTW]

12.  AndrewisFTTW - oh weird he disappeared

Oh weird I was on a gig and just got off. If you have a scum read on me just say it instead of subtly suggesting that I'm lurking or whatever it is you're doing. It's annoying.

[Voltaire]

12.  AndrewisFTTW - oh weird he disappeared

Oh weird I was on a gig and just got off. If you have a scum read on me just say it instead of subtly suggesting that I'm lurking or whatever it is you're doing. It's annoying.

WHAT

THE

HELL

EVERYHTING I SAY IS NOT ACCUSING SOMEONE THEY'RE SUCM

I simply noted you weren't in the sceond half o f the thread. Note I did not vote for you, nor call you scummy. Note that I called people I found scummy scummy.

[AndrewisFTTW]

So why are you going out of your way to say that my posting is "non-existent" and I "disappeared"? There are other people this would apply better to.

[Voltaire]

How am I going out of my way to do it? I saw it, I said it.

[Voltaire]

Man, it took me so far out of my way to say that. Why did you react so strongly?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I didn't react strongly. I just saw you singling me out for some reason and I thought it was weird. Why are you reacting strongly?

[Voltaire]

Why are you reacting strongly?

Drunk re-reading this thread since apparently I'm #*%%&ing up enough to get mislynched D1...

[XerxesPraelor]

Insinuating people are scum is scummy, but it really doesn't seem like that's what volt was doing there. The strong reaction is interesting,  though.

Can we have a vote count?

PPE: Okay... I guess I'm back to null on you.

unvote

[faust]

"Anybody can become angry – that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way – that is not within everybody's power and is not easy."
- Aristotle

Vote Count 1.9

XerxesPraelor (2): sudgy, scott_pilgrim
A Drowned Kernel (4): mcmcsalot, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire
Voltaire (3): A Drowned Kernel, yuma, jotheonah
scott_pilgrim (4): Robz888, mail-mi, ashersky, theorel

Not voting (1): Axxle,XerxesPraelor

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[jotheonah]

Well that was interesting. I want to say it made Volt look townier, but i hate hate hate letting people off the hook for being crazy, because that just encourages scum to be crazy when they're under fire.

[theorel]

Yeah, that was weird from my perspective.  I mean the previous games where I went from scum-read on volt to town-read on volt involved strong rational arguments, not random dunk-posting.  What's more his reaction seems out of sync with his previous reaction to his wagon "dying off" at 3 votes.  I mean, that's just an odd reaction to 1 more vote than that...

I can't decide if any of that is scummy or just different from what I would expect.

[Voltaire]

Yeah, that was weird from my perspective.  I mean the previous games where I went from scum-read on volt to town-read on volt involved strong rational arguments, not random dunk-posting.  What's more his reaction seems out of sync with his previous reaction to his wagon "dying off" at 3 votes.  I mean, that's just an odd reaction to 1 more vote than that...

I can't decide if any of that is scummy or just different from what I would expect.

There's a difference between being a wagon and being a lynch. It's getting late in the day, it's starting to seem like I could be the lynch. And it's annoying, because aside from you, none of my scum reads appear to be driving my wagon.

Oh except wait, ADK is voting me. And you're not voting me. Clever. Very clever.

[Voltaire]

The one thing I will agree with is that I have been different this game, and that is because I wasn't following closely for the longest time. Catching up D1, as I hope everyone will admit unless you're willing to admit you're manufacturing a case on me, is far different than paying close attention D1.

[Voltaire]

theorel, why are you voting S_P if I'm so damn scummy?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think Volt is scum. I do think ADK is.

[Robz888]

I didn't think Volt was scum before, and I still don't.

[yuma]

I didn't think Volt was scum before, and I still don't.

So I guess I just don't know what to make from you.

You disagree with both of my cases (on teproc and voltaire) but you find me townie for it and support my pushing those cases but not the cases themselves?

If you are town and think I am town wouldn't you want me to be more focused on people that you find scummy? If you are scum it seems you would be fine with me looking in a direction that isn't you or a scum partner?

Kinda getting wary of Robz here.

[jotheonah]

Me too! I've been wondering if this was scum!Robz for a little while now.

[Robz888]

I didn't think Volt was scum before, and I still don't.

So I guess I just don't know what to make from you.

You disagree with both of my cases (on teproc and voltaire) but you find me townie for it and support my pushing those cases but not the cases themselves?

If you are town and think I am town wouldn't you want me to be more focused on people that you find scummy? If you are scum it seems you would be fine with me looking in a direction that isn't you or a scum partner?

Kinda getting wary of Robz here.

Okay. I don't really have a response to this. I don't think Voltaire is being scummy, I don't thin, you're being scummy, do whatever you want though, it's part of the process of Day 1.

[theorel]

theorel, why are you voting S_P if I'm so damn scummy?

Because when I say "I'm not sure if this is scummy" I actually mean that I'm not sure?  I needed to think about it, and I had decided it was just different before I read your post.

As noted before, I've had scumreads on town-Volt frequently enough that I don't trust them.  I forgot that at first, but my scum-read since remembering has lessened.  That's part of why I voted scott over you in the first place (as I told yuma when asked). 

I can vote for you if it'll make you feel better about things in general...but really, I'd rather lynch a lurker.  Which is a stance I've maintained since I switched off of you some 7 or 8 pages ago.

[theorel]

I had decided it wasn't scummy, is actually what that should say.

[yuma]

I can vote for you if it'll make you feel better about things in general...but really, I'd rather lynch a lurker.  Which is a stance I've maintained since I switched off of you some 7 or 8 pages ago.

What did you think of my analysis in regards to lurkers a few posts back? Do you agree or disagree that a lurking scum is one of the players less likely to get heavy attention for lurking early?

[Axxle]

vote: Scott pilgrim

Don't have much to add, finally read through the thread.

If it was earlier in the day I think theorem might be good to look at but sp is probably scum too?

[Axxle]

Yumas behaving p differently compared to adventure time, though that was a diff scenario. Prob town here.

Teproc/Voltaire (please stop calling him volt, I keep expecting voltgloss ) seem town, at least a couple that deserves to live day 1

[yuma]

For reference theorel the post is here, snipped to take up less room

I don't think scum is in scott or joth unvote.

I could see scum more easily in Xerxes, ADK, sudgy or Axxle more so than the rest.

And I guess Axxle do you disagree with my assessment as well. Basically the gist of it is that all the lurkers can't be scum just because of the number of them. So is a town!lurker or a scum!lurker more likely to get heat early for lurking. I supposed town!lurkers would... hence a townier feel on joth and scott and a scummier feel for the other "lurkers"

[theorel]

I can vote for you if it'll make you feel better about things in general...but really, I'd rather lynch a lurker.  Which is a stance I've maintained since I switched off of you some 7 or 8 pages ago.

What did you think of my analysis in regards to lurkers a few posts back? Do you agree or disagree that a lurking scum is one of the players less likely to get heavy attention for lurking early?

I sort of half-agree I guess?
I think scum is likely to point out their lurking partners (or their lurking selves).  Galzria pointed to himself as lurking in DS9, mail-mi pointed out his partner's lurking in MXXX.  However, I do agree that they're likely to try to get a wagon on someone else (same MXXX mail-mi pushes for us to lynch lurking-town-Robz).

So, I wouldn't include any of the "mentioned" items in the listing, since those could easily come from scum regarding a partner.
Honestly, the biggest thing in your analysis to me is that almost nobody is really pursuing lynching a lurker.  This indicates to me that scum is probably lurking, and doesn't want to risk putting attention on the lurking partner(s), or that they're all lurking...which frankly I find more likely.

I've brought up MXXX several times, because this game feels a lot like it to me.  For those unaware, in that game a fairly lurkish mcmc, and a lurking mail-mi were scum.

[Axxle]

I think scum is slightly less likely to be called out but that was the joth vote, after that the floodgates were open and I don't think the likelyhppd is all that different, just have to look how they react.

[yuma]

Right I was stating the moment that I did that point as the threshold, but it certainly could have been before--or even afterwards--that the shift from town to scum began, if it began at all.

I am certainly not confident that I am right here, more so about joth than scott, but I do think it interesting that some of the lurkers have received so little analysis compared to others and I automatically question why that is...

[Axxle]

Because lurking isn't scummy, having scummy posts is and sp has that whereas others don't really.

Well, maybe xp?

[scott_pilgrim]

I do think it interesting that some of the lurkers have received so little analysis compared to others and I automatically question why that is...

Yeah, this is how I feel too except I'm also a little frustrated since I'm the one being negatively affected by it...I feel like there's a lot of other people lurking, but I feel like I was the only one people ever voted for for lurking (probably forgetting some votes but still).  Maybe it's just kind of random, people wanted to lynch a lurker and just picked me arbitrarily, and then once a wagon starts picking up speed of course it makes sense to get on board, especially since we need 8 to lynch.  I guess it's just frustrating not knowing what I could do or what I could have done to prevent it...

Because lurking isn't scummy, having scummy posts is and sp has that whereas others don't really.

Do you have an example?

[Teproc]

Just posting to say I haven't been following this closely for the past two days because I was out of town, but I'll fully catch-up some time tomorrow morning.

[Voltaire]

You want a lurker who initially didn't get much attention, gotta be ADK.

[AndrewisFTTW]

ADK is V/LA but yes, he's my biggest scum read right now.

Still not seeing anything in the SP self-vote thing. Let me know if I'm missing anything.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I don't see how I haven't "gotten much attention", there are four people voting for me, and that isn't a new thing.

Scott: lurking is within his meta as I'm familiar with it, but he could be using that to his advantage. Reading his posts, I can see the possibility for scum there, he's fairly noncommittal.

Voltaire: his posts during the Teproc/Yuma fight still seem a little scummy to me. The bit where he freaked out and drunk posted I wouldn't take as evidence either way, that's something town would do and scum would fake.

Axxle: I don't like his latest posts, or how absent he's been today (pot calling the kettle black, I know), I feel like axxle's generally more present than this. Here he shows up and says "not much to say, scott is lurking, I vote scott."

ash: is posting a lot less than he usually does as well, though he's regularly gone on the weekend and maybe he just doesn't see anything since it's day one.

People who I'm feeling towny about: Robz, theorel. They're doing a way better job of contributing to discussion than I am. After a reread Yuma looks townier than before, I get a decent vibe from his posts. joth looks fairly town after he jumps in. Not like 100% but definitely wouldn't lynch today.

XP is a lurky lurker. Is sudgy in this game? What's going on with him?

FTTW seems like normal, but I don't know what he looks like as scum.

My reread here was more of a skim, I'll admit, and I think I'll have to do a more focused one when I can early next week. People I would lynch right now would probably be scott or voltaire. I'm going to keep my vote on Voltaire, because even if he does flip town, I think we'll have a lot of interaction to look at.

[mcmcsalot]

I've gotten zero attention and it's wierd.(I may have gotten attention in the insane amout of posts I haven't read)

[mcmcsalot]

Right I was stating the moment that I did that point as the threshold, but it certainly could have been before--or even afterwards--that the shift from town to scum began, if it began at all.

I am certainly not confident that I am right here, more so about joth than scott, but I do think it interesting that some of the lurkers have received so little analysis compared to others and I automatically question why that is...

So just spitballin but if anyone is effecting what lurkers get analyzed its scum picking lurkers to analyze, town wouldn't pick some over others for any reason

[Robz888]

I've gotten zero attention and it's wierd.(I may have gotten attention in the insane amout of posts I haven't read)

I think it's because you've just been lynched a lot lately and you're getting a pass. That's why I'm giving you little attention, anyway.

[Axxle]

not much to say, scott is lurking, I vote scott.

[Teproc]

Responding to stuff as I catch-up.

Ok... but really we have gotten off topic.

To reiterate... I think teproc is scummy because:

1. he attempted to use a "policy vote" (yes I am going to continue calling it that despite our conversation about it... which I don't think anyone wants to get into again) against me and then sought out ways to later justify it
2. has gone out of his way to defend voltaire in a situation where I don't think he should have had such a strong townread on him
3. accusing me of OMGUS and attempting to discredit him when I believe that was apparently not the case.
4. has used a "meta" to justify this--really that I one thing that keeps me coming back to Teproc. Everything he has done this game has been based off meta-reads. Policy voting, townread on Voltaire, not liking claiming. Nothing seems new or original to this game. It is like he is sticking to what he is and not deviating from it in an attempt to seem authentic where I think true authenticity goes with the ebbs and flow and can deviate as the shape of the game adapts...

1. Let's not start this again.
2. I don't have a strong townread on Voltaire. Well, I'm starting to now but I didn't when I was defending him. I had a null read on him, and I saw people voting for him for things he did that were null in my mind, so I pointed it out.
3. Let's not start this again.
4. Very interesting point. It's true, I've been relying on meta a lot of this game, and I guess you're free to find that scummy but... why is it scummy ? Because there's no "original thought" ? What does that even mean ? Why is "original thought" better at catching scum ? We all use meta arguments all the time, and it's a good thing, otherwise we would mislynch mail-mi every game ! I do think meta arguments can be weak but when there's not much to go on, they're better than nothing. Also, you'll notice that my case on you had nothing do with meta (yes, I asked if it was usual for you to be putting a plan forward, but that was after I found you scummy for other things)

[Teproc]

I didn't think Volt was scum before, and I still don't.

So I guess I just don't know what to make from you.

You disagree with both of my cases (on teproc and voltaire) but you find me townie for it and support my pushing those cases but not the cases themselves?

If you are town and think I am town wouldn't you want me to be more focused on people that you find scummy? If you are scum it seems you would be fine with me looking in a direction that isn't you or a scum partner?

Kinda getting wary of Robz here.

I am as well. I know Robz is aware of his meta, but the last time he was this active day 1 (at least in a game I was in) was DWII, where he was scum. Everything he's doing reads townie to me, which is also highly unusual. It doesn't make him scum in my eyes, because lynching someone for being unusually townie would be kind of crazy, but it does worry me a bit.

[Teproc]

Well there wasn't that much to respond to I guess. My problem at this point is that ADK is pretty much my only scum read : it's a solid read for day 1 and he's a mjor wagon, but that's not great, so let's do reads and see who I'm forgetting about.

theorel: Town. His whole approach to things this game has read very honest and constructive to me. I disagree with pretty much everything he's said or done (right down to hating the scumscore thing), but nothing here feels forced.

yuma : Town. I still think what started our fight was scummy, but he's been very townie since, especially in the way he moved on from the fight. First time I'm getting a read on yuma day 1, we should fight more often !

scott_pilgrim : Town. Rereading, I kinda convinced myself scott was town : yes there's the whole "oh noes, day 1 is hard" thing but he did that in both DoP and Super Mario, but then he does minorly townie things, like pointing out that Axxle's IC thing doesn't really mean anything and his big reads post which I think is town. Because no one feels an obligation to do them, I think these posts come from town more than scum (myself excepted, I always do them regardless), and his thoughts read genuine to me there.

Voltaire : Slight town. The one thing that has worried me about Voltaire this game is that he's been more jokey than usual, but his recent posts have felt like town!Voltaire freaking out about being lynched in a game where he has strong reads on day 1. Again, the buddying is null and I don't see his sheeping/egging on/whatever you cant to call it on me vs yuma as particularly scummy.

mcmcsalot : Slight town. His comments about knowing the case on Andrew would be crap before even hearing it read townie to me for some reason, and then he's just been behaving like town!mcmc does in general. Even in Battle School where I really thought he was town when he was not, a few of his posts did ring alarm bells, I just ignored them because my town read on him was already solid, and there are no alarm bells ringing here.

XerxesPraelor : Slight town. He's mega-lurking, but the few posts he had read townie to me, especially the way he changed his mind on Voltaire recently, and also him asking people to explain the cases currently going on.

jotheonah : Slight town. Not a fan of his "lack of solidarity among lurkers" comment (reads like he's deflecting to other lurkers) but has otherwise seemed pretty townie, in that he's tried to be useful since he's started posting more.

Robz888 : Null. As I said, his posts are very townie, but his meta is working against him here. Can't bring myself to commit either way.

sudgy : Null. Really needs to post more now that he's out of RMM13.

mail-mi : Slight scum. He's been lurking / VLA, there's nothing townie in his posts and he's voting for S_P, which I think is a scummy wagon.

ashersky : Slight scum. Basically no content, which is very strange for ash (I know he's been V/LA, but he has posted a decent amount since). Went along with Axxle's IC thing which I do not get at all. Has overall flown under the radar which is very unusual.

Axxle : Slight scum. Despite posting a reasonable amount, there is very little content in there. His IC thing really doesn't make sense to me, because how could anyone believe that works ? He's also voting for scott which is not a wagon I like, especially when ADK is right there.

AndrewisFTTW : Slight scum. He's been tunneling on ADK (I know, but still) and contraditing himself all over, but in ways that aren't noticeable before specifically rereading him. He's the first to suggest a joth lurker lynch, then asks the joth voters why they're not voting for other lurkers. He finds scott null but lists him amng the three people he' wants to lynch... Contradictions aren't scummy, but town explains things when they change their mind, whereas here it looks like Andrew either forgot about his previous stances or just hoped it wouldn't be noticed.

A Drowned Kernel : Scum. There's the long empty Axxle vote, then a sheepy vote on yuma, and just a bad feeling overall, like he's trying to adjust his posts to give people what they want, which is of course what scum wants to do. Town does that to an extent, but ADK's posts have felt very forced this game, which is enough to make him a solid day 1 lynch in my book.


OK, so I guess there are scummy people out there ! ADK is still vastly my preferred lynch, but I would also support an Andrew or Axxle lynch, and be ok with ash or mail-mi.

[AndrewisFTTW]

AndrewisFTTW : Slight scum. He's been tunneling on ADK (I know, but still) and contraditing himself all over, but in ways that aren't noticeable before specifically rereading him. He's the first to suggest a joth lurker lynch, then asks the joth voters why they're not voting for other lurkers. He finds scott null but lists him amng the three people he' wants to lynch... Contradictions aren't scummy, but town explains things when they change their mind, whereas here it looks like Andrew either forgot about his previous stances or just hoped it wouldn't be noticed.i.

I almost jokingly mentioned lynching joth as I was under the impression that he was the biggest lurker in the game. A post count had not been posyed yet. And I only asked Axxle why he voted for joth (was it joth) because he voted him for lurking and according to the post count, there were a couple other people lurking worse than joth. You make this like I asked everyone who vote for joth why they aren't voting for someone else, which is false. I did not list Scott a someone I "want" to lynch, but rather someone I would lynch if everyone presented a good case and he had a majority vote up on him. That's like me saying that you said you want to lynch me, Axxle, ash, and mail-mi in your last sentence but I know you didn't say that. You knew I didn't say that too, so why tell everybody I did?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sorry for typos and omissions of words. I'm on a cell phone and I didn't proofread.

[Teproc]

I think you said you would vote for anyone but would prefer scott,Axxle and AD, so you did single him out among your preferred lynches at that point.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok here is the quote in question:

At this point I could vote for whoever. Just like yuma said, 8 is a big number and I realized how difficult it could potentially be to get a lynch through if we don't cooperate. That said, at this point I would like to lynch ADK, Axxle or Scott.

Andddd.... you're right that's a really weird post. I don't know why I said Scott and I don't know why I said "I would like to lynch". Well let me fix that here. My biggest scum read right now is ADK. Slight scum reads on Axxle and Teproc, but those are more hunches than anything I can really back up.

I guess this means I need to do a full re-read. Sorry for the confusion.

[yuma]

4. Very interesting point. It's true, I've been relying on meta a lot of this game, and I guess you're free to find that scummy but... why is it scummy ? Because there's no "original thought" ? What does that even mean ? Why is "original thought" better at catching scum ? We all use meta arguments all the time, and it's a good thing, otherwise we would mislynch mail-mi every game ! I do think meta arguments can be weak but when there's not much to go on, they're better than nothing. Also, you'll notice that my case on you had nothing do with meta (yes, I asked if it was usual for you to be putting a plan forward, but that was after I found you scummy for other things)

I am not necessarily saying that "original thought" is better at catching scum. It might or might not be. My issue with it is that it seems like a way to mimic scum hunting w/o actually needing to scum hunt--that is always the issue with being scum... you have to fake scumhunt and it is difficult to pull off convincingly. If you just hide behind meta reads (which I think you are predominantly doing) you have a set up script of how to respond to certain situations.

But your case on me was based off meta--your meta. You have established that you don't like theory talk and that you think it is bad for town. I started doing theory talk and you found me scummy for it. That is potentially easy cover to hide behind.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.10

XerxesPraelor (2): sudgy, scott_pilgrim
A Drowned Kernel (4): mcmcsalot, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire
Voltaire (3): A Drowned Kernel, yuma, jotheonah
scott_pilgrim (5): Robz888, mail-mi, ashersky, theorel, Axxle

Not voting (1): XerxesPraelor

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[Voltaire]

I am as well. I know Robz is aware of his meta, but the last time he was this active day 1 (at least in a game I was in) was DWII, where he was scum. Everything he's doing reads townie to me, which is also highly unusual. It doesn't make him scum in my eyes, because lynching someone for being unusually townie would be kind of crazy, but it does worry me a bit.

This. I have a two-universe explanation for Robz and this is one of them. The less-likely, I think (hope) but one of them.

[Teproc]

But your case on me was based off meta--your meta. You have established that you don't like theory talk and that you think it is bad for town. I started doing theory talk and you found me scummy for it. That is potentially easy cover to hide behind.

That's a stretch. My belief that theory talk is bad for town isn't a meta, it's what I think. It would be like saying that Robz trying to get a random lurker lynch going = Robz lynching based on meta, because random lurker lynches are part of his meta.

No, really, I don't see how that makes sense at all. You could literally say this of any case.

[yuma]

That's a stretch. My belief that theory talk is bad for town isn't a meta, it's what I think.

Maybe I have a confused idea of what a meta is... but isn't this exactly what a meta is?

You have a meta across games that you don't like theory talk. If you came into this game and were talking a lot of theory I would have said to myself... "that is the opposite of Teproc's meta!"

[ashersky]

Now I need to catch up here.  Will be doing that.

[Robz888]

There has been hardly any feuding this Day 1, which is not a good thing.

The only sort of feud I can think of is the yuma-Teproc/Voltaire one. And I just have null, sort of townie reads on all those people.

[yuma]

There has been hardly any feuding this Day 1, which is not a good thing.

The only sort of feud I can think of is the yuma-Teproc/Voltaire one. And I just have null, sort of townie reads on all those people.

Why haven't you been feuding with anyone?

[Robz888]

Just been in an agreeable mood, I guess.

[Robz888]

Also, no one has attacked anything I've said.

[yuma]

So what do we do then?

One thing I just noticed is that scott isn't voting for ADK, which would put 5 votes on each, and ADK isn't voting for scott, which would put 6 votes on him...

Basically the two biggest wagons aren't voting for each other. What do we make of that?

[Robz888]

It's very odd.

[mail-mi]

It's very odd.

Is it odd as in just odd or odd as in could-be-partners odd?

I think it could be either way, so I'm still comfortable with my vote.

[Robz888]

It's very odd.

Is it odd as in just odd or odd as in could-be-partners odd?

I think it could be either way, so I'm still comfortable with my vote.

I think "they're partners!" is insanely wishful thinking. They are partners, who are the two leading lynch wagons, and they are doing nothing to stop themselves from getting lynched? That would explain why they aren't redirecting to each other, but really they would be misdirecting to someone else if they were both scum.

I kind of doubt either of them are scum, I guess.

[Axxle]

Also, no one has attacked anything I've said.

bullshit

[scott_pilgrim]

Oh, yeah, well I had mentioned earlier that ADK was one of my top lynch choices, but I voted XP since I felt like he was one of the lurkers that wasn't really getting any attention.  I was planning to move my vote to a wagon as the deadline got closer, I guess I kind of wanted to see if anything else would come up since then but I guess not.  Of course I'm not going to vote for myself so that leaves either Voltaire or ADK, and I guess I feel a little better about ADK.

vote: A Drowned Kernel

[XerxesPraelor]

Agh, I hate this game. Let's just get a lynch and maybe things can be clearer tomorrow.

vote: scott_pilgrim

[ashersky]

Agh, I hate this game. Let's just get a lynch and maybe things can be clearer tomorrow.

vote: scott_pilgrim

That's L-1 with no warning, btw.

[ashersky]

Oh, yeah, well I had mentioned earlier that ADK was one of my top lynch choices, but I voted XP since I felt like he was one of the lurkers that wasn't really getting any attention.  I was planning to move my vote to a wagon as the deadline got closer, I guess I kind of wanted to see if anything else would come up since then but I guess not.  Of course I'm not going to vote for myself so that leaves either Voltaire or ADK, and I guess I feel a little better about ADK.

vote: A Drowned Kernel

Seems scummy.

[Axxle]

Oh, yeah, well I had mentioned earlier that ADK was one of my top lynch choices, but I voted XP since I felt like he was one of the lurkers that wasn't really getting any attention.  I was planning to move my vote to a wagon as the deadline got closer, I guess I kind of wanted to see if anything else would come up since then but I guess not.  Of course I'm not going to vote for myself so that leaves either Voltaire or ADK, and I guess I feel a little better about ADK.

vote: A Drowned Kernel

Seems scummy.

Overexplanation. Feel free to state intent to hammer.

[ashersky]

I am already voting SP.

[faust]

"Act that your principle of action might safely be made a law for the whole world."
- Immanuel Kant

Vote Count 1.11

XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
A Drowned Kernel (5): mcmcsalot, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim
Voltaire (3): A Drowned Kernel, yuma, jotheonah
scott_pilgrim (6): Robz888, mail-mi, ashersky, theorel, Axxle, XerxesPraelor (L-2)

Not voting (0)

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[mcmcsalot]

anyone care to explain the scott case too me?(I know I should just read it)

[Axxle]

Every move he makes, every breath he takes, every town he breaks, he'll be scumming you.

He falls int the lurker category and his posts ooze scum to me. It's more gut than anything else as is always the case d1 for me.

[jotheonah]

Vote: ADK

It's a better wagon than scott, guys. it just is.

[sudgy]

Sorry for not posting in a while.  I had a busy weekend and forgot to announce it.  I have to do school now.  I'll reread later today.

[Axxle]

Vote: ADK

This is L-1.

I tried bussing my partner, I really did. But if you're going to give me a mislynch I'm fine with it.

[Axxle]

(I'm actually null on ADK but just kinda want the day to end)

[jotheonah]

I just realized who your avatar is. We should run Magic mafia with iconic characters from the games' history and some kind of planeswalking mechanic.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: Scott pilgrim l-2 I believe, this is because I think scum is more likely to have seen my vote on Adk(which I already pointed out idk why I was voting for him) and want to use it to get a lynch through. I think if one of scott/Adk is scum that's the more logical reasoning for the Adk wagon.

[jotheonah]

So Axxle and mcmc just switched. GOOD JOB GUYS.

[yuma]

So Axxle and mcmc just switched. GOOD JOB GUYS.

Haha!

[Axxle]

vote: Scott pilgrim l-2 I believe, this is because I think scum is more likely to have seen my vote on Adk(which I already pointed out idk why I was voting for him) and want to use it to get a lynch through. I think if one of scott/Adk is scum that's the more logical reasoning for the Adk wagon.

Wait, what? Why is your vote so important? Who on the ADK wagon is scum with scott?

[Axxle]

I just realized who your avatar is. We should run Magic mafia with iconic characters from the games' history and some kind of planeswalking mechanic.

That'd be fun. Probably just change a mechanic every day. Like: Day 1: Everyone is hated.  Day 2: umm.... Probably could use some "Draw 3 cards, put two back"ing

[mcmcsalot]

vote: Scott pilgrim l-2 I believe, this is because I think scum is more likely to have seen my vote on Adk(which I already pointed out idk why I was voting for him) and want to use it to get a lynch through. I think if one of scott/Adk is scum that's the more logical reasoning for the Adk wagon.

Wait, what? Why is your vote so important? Who on the ADK wagon is scum with scott?

no clue, my thought process was just that "hey my vote has been on adk for forever for no reason and hes about to be lynched. There is an equal sized wagon on scot but people seem to be leaning toward adk(only technically though because my vote is null) I should swap.

[yuma]

Why swap though? Why not try to get something going on someone you do have a scumread on? Who do you have scumreads on? scott?

[Robz888]

Is ADK on VLA or something? He is not going down the way I would expect scum to go down. Scotty is going down in a more scum way, I think.

Do we want claims? Order claims, too?

[yuma]

Is ADK on VLA or something? He is not going down the way I would expect scum to go down. Scotty is going down in a more scum way, I think.

He said that he is semi-VLA due to not having electricity in his home or something like that...

[Robz888]

Oh, that's right. Kind of explains it.

[mcmcsalot]

Why swap though? Why not try to get something going on someone you do have a scumread on? Who do you have scumreads on? scott?

because i'm a sucky suck face who won't read and I trust the reads of the players on scott more. As well as agree his vote on scott is scummy

[yuma]

Is ADK on VLA or something? He is not going down the way I would expect scum to go down. Scotty is going down in a more scum way, I think.

Do we want claims? Order claims, too?

No claims yet I think.

And I think there is becoming a high probability that neither are scum. Based off what I pointed out earlier about them not voting for each other and other things I have noted--specifically about scott receiving lurker attention early. Scott did end up voting for ADK, but I think perhaps scum gets on that larger wagon earlier. Survivalism is a universal trait for both alignments, but lack of survivalism I think points towards town. ADK is that way and scott was until it was pointed out to him, thus less scummy I think (than if he had moved there by himself)

[yuma]

I think if scott had voted for ADK by himself that could have been seen as scummy. But I had pointed it out that he wasn't and then he did (survivalism). Robz had said that kinda indicated he was town. I think scum wouldn't do that after getting some towncred for it and after being called out in that way...

Basically I don't think we are heading toward scum with a scott wagon. With ADK I am less sure about, him not being around makes it harder to tell...

(also I don't like the trend f.ds has had of late of voting wagons based off your town reads voting patterns... I don't think it is scummy, I just think it isn't the best policy of play, because reads are never 100%--even 50% is hard to come by--accurate so you are putting too much trust in people whom you can't have full trust)

[yuma]

Now I need to catch up here.  Will be doing that.

Did you get fully caught up. If you didn't no sweat... as I understand you just started up your work week... but if you did you didn't provide much analysis of everything that has been going on just saying that a post from scott was scummy from the "current" timeframe.

Basically I have been kinda hoping you would see my cases on Teproc and Voltaire as having merit and would be willing to join them as I don't think I know your opinion on them.

[Teproc]

I think if scott had voted for ADK by himself that could have been seen as scummy. But I had pointed it out that he wasn't and then he did (survivalism). Robz had said that kinda indicated he was town. I think scum wouldn't do that after getting some towncred for it and after being called out in that way...

I'm not a fan of these reasonings, I don't think there is a universal way wagons on scum go down : in Super Mario people argued that the wagon on chairs stalled and was therefore on scum, which wasn't true. In DoP the wagon on AHoppy stalled with no one caring, and people thought it was because AHoppy was town, when in reality it was because scum was already bussing.

Also, and I know you make this point but it's important : ADK being V/LA kind of makes that reasoning invalid.

(also I don't like the trend f.ds has had of late of voting wagons based off your town reads voting patterns... I don't think it is scummy, I just think it isn't the best policy of play, because reads are never 100%--even 50% is hard to come by--accurate so you are putting too much trust in people whom you can't have full trust)

This I agree with though.

[Teproc]

Why swap though? Why not try to get something going on someone you do have a scumread on? Who do you have scumreads on? scott?

because i'm a sucky suck face who won't read and I trust the reads of the players on scott more. As well as agree his vote on scott is scummy

Who's vote on whom ? Do you mean his self-vote thingie ? I don't really know why people find that scummy.

[yuma]

I think if scott had voted for ADK by himself that could have been seen as scummy. But I had pointed it out that he wasn't and then he did (survivalism). Robz had said that kinda indicated he was town. I think scum wouldn't do that after getting some towncred for it and after being called out in that way...

I'm not a fan of these reasonings, I don't think there is a universal way wagons on scum go down : in Super Mario people argued that the wagon on chairs stalled and was therefore on scum, which wasn't true. In DoP the wagon on AHoppy stalled with no one caring, and people thought it was because AHoppy was town, when in reality it was because scum was already bussing.

I agree with you in general. But here I think there is an important difference... the lack of (at least initially) voting for each other. And then then voting of scott after I pointed it out and Robz gave some towncred for it. I don't think scott would respond with a vote if he were scum in this way. That is my main take away, not so much anything like what is stated in the games above.

[Teproc]

I think if scott had voted for ADK by himself that could have been seen as scummy. But I had pointed it out that he wasn't and then he did (survivalism). Robz had said that kinda indicated he was town. I think scum wouldn't do that after getting some towncred for it and after being called out in that way...

I'm not a fan of these reasonings, I don't think there is a universal way wagons on scum go down : in Super Mario people argued that the wagon on chairs stalled and was therefore on scum, which wasn't true. In DoP the wagon on AHoppy stalled with no one caring, and people thought it was because AHoppy was town, when in reality it was because scum was already bussing.

I agree with you in general. But here I think there is an important difference... the lack of (at least initially) voting for each other. And then then voting of scott after I pointed it out and Robz gave some towncred for it. I don't think scott would respond with a vote if he were scum in this way. That is my main take away, not so much anything like what is stated in the games above.

How would you expect scum!scott to respond though ? I could see giving him town points for not voting beforeRobz pointed it out, but you seem to be giving hem for voting after Robz did, which I think scum would also do.

And I don't think the argument really applies to ADK because of his V/LA.

[Robz888]

I think if scott had voted for ADK by himself that could have been seen as scummy. But I had pointed it out that he wasn't and then he did (survivalism). Robz had said that kinda indicated he was town. I think scum wouldn't do that after getting some towncred for it and after being called out in that way...

Basically I don't think we are heading toward scum with a scott wagon. With ADK I am less sure about, him not being around makes it harder to tell...

(also I don't like the trend f.ds has had of late of voting wagons based off your town reads voting patterns... I don't think it is scummy, I just think it isn't the best policy of play, because reads are never 100%--even 50% is hard to come by--accurate so you are putting too much trust in people whom you can't have full trust)

Yeah, I essentially agree. I was thinking it was the other way around, Scotty a little more likely than ADK, but given this point and ADK's pseudo VLA, you are probably right. And in either case, I don't think either are all that likely to be scum.

The problem is, I don't know who I prefer.

[Robz888]

And I don't prefer Teproc and Voltaire, because the cost of mislynching them is much higher, and I'm not persuaded by the cases against them.

[Robz888]

How about... mail-mi?

[Axxle]

(also I don't like the trend f.ds has had of late of voting wagons based off your town reads voting patterns... I don't think it is scummy, I just think it isn't the best policy of play, because reads are never 100%--even 50% is hard to come by--accurate so you are putting too much trust in people whom you can't have full trust)

Games need a balance of leaders, sheepers, thinkers, questioners to function well. Too many of one and everything falls apart. It's all in my new book: Rope a Dope.

[Robz888]

Vote: Mail-mi

Thoughts?

[ashersky]

Now I need to catch up here.  Will be doing that.

Did you get fully caught up. If you didn't no sweat... as I understand you just started up your work week... but if you did you didn't provide much analysis of everything that has been going on just saying that a post from scott was scummy from the "current" timeframe.

Basically I have been kinda hoping you would see my cases on Teproc and Voltaire as having merit and would be willing to join them as I don't think I know your opinion on them.

Sorry, no.  I got swamped yesterday.  Will do in the next 90 minutes.  I started yesterday, but found it a bit...dull?  Is that the right word.  I think whomever said (maybe it was Robz) that there just aren't very many interactions here is correct.

I'll find something to get people riled up, though, I'm sure.

[Teproc]

Vote: Mail-mi

Thoughts?

I'm not against it, but I actually like the ADK lynch, so I'm staying there.

[sudgy]

Okay, I basically have no reads at the moment, so I'm going to be rereading each person with my thoughts on them.  I'm not going to be around tomorrow morning (that's 7 for me and a bit too early), so I'll vote by tonight.

[sudgy]

Okay, I basically have no reads at the moment, so I'm going to be rereading each person with my thoughts on them.

That should be rereading each person and posting my thoughts on them.

[Robz888]

Okay, I basically have no reads at the moment, so I'm going to be rereading each person with my thoughts on them.

That should be rereading each person and posting my thoughts on them.

Let me say again, this time more insistently, that giant reads lists re not helpful! I probably won't even read them unless you flip scum! Much better to like find someone who did something scummy and make a case.

[Teproc]

Okay, I basically have no reads at the moment, so I'm going to be rereading each person with my thoughts on them.

That should be rereading each person and posting my thoughts on them.

Let me say again, this time more insistently, that giant reads lists re not helpful! I probably won't even read them unless you flip scum! Much better to like find someone who did something scummy and make a case.

Let me say again that they ARE useful. THe fact that you don't read them is your problem, not ours. You SHOULD read them, I really don't get why you don't. You read theorel's super long posts about random stuff, don't you ?

They're not only useful when people flip, they're useful period, not to mention that they help the person making them to organize their thoughts (at least that's the main reason I do them).

[yuma]

Okay, I basically have no reads at the moment, so I'm going to be rereading each person with my thoughts on them.

That should be rereading each person and posting my thoughts on them.

Let me say again, this time more insistently, that giant reads lists re not helpful! I probably won't even read them unless you flip scum! Much better to like find someone who did something scummy and make a case.

Unless this is how he finds scum (as this can be a method people use to develop reads)... in which case maybe include a if you read only one part, read this: section?

[Axxle]

I like giant reads lists so it's easier to pick someone to kill as scum.

[Teproc]

Like, it's insane to me that you are complaining that there are no interactions in this game, and yet you are actively preventing people to do posts which are 100% interactions.

[Teproc]

I like giant reads lists so it's easier to pick someone to kill as scum.

Which still means they're useful for interpreting the night kill, which people don't do enough (myself included).

[Robz888]

Okay, I basically have no reads at the moment, so I'm going to be rereading each person with my thoughts on them.

That should be rereading each person and posting my thoughts on them.

Let me say again, this time more insistently, that giant reads lists re not helpful! I probably won't even read them unless you flip scum! Much better to like find someone who did something scummy and make a case.

Unless this is how he finds scum (as this can be a method people use to develop reads)... in which case maybe include a if you read only one part, read this: section?

Then I would rather just read, "Hey, I think X is scum because..." than "A did this, null read, B did this, town to null, C no opinion, D null..."

[yuma]

vote: robz

[Robz888]

Like, it's insane to me that you are complaining that there are no interactions in this game, and yet you are actively preventing people to do posts which are 100% interactions.

It doesn't promote genuine interaction. It's a less evolved form of play, I am quite sure. In fact, in my 50 mafia games, I have seen less of it as time has gone on and people have gotten better at being town.

[Teproc]

Like, it's insane to me that you are complaining that there are no interactions in this game, and yet you are actively preventing people to do posts which are 100% interactions.

It doesn't promote genuine interaction. It's a less evolved form of play, I am quite sure. In fact, in my 50 mafia games, I have seen less of it as time has gone on and people have gotten better at being town.

Well that's not condescending at all. It's a good thing you figured out how to perfectly play as town, now we just all need to scream we're ICs and not participate on day 1 I guess (this is unfair because you've done neither this game, but you see what I mean).

To me, reads lists are similar to Voltaire's PoE thing. Do you think Voltaire's PoE thing is a "less evolved" form of play ?

[Robz888]

Look, some peoples lists are kind of helpful. Voltaire's list, where he then crosses people off, is generally helpful because 1) He then focuses us away from specific people and toward others, and 2) His reads are much better than average.

The average person, straining to come with up something to say about every player, particularly in a large game, does not help. I mean, it's better than doing nothing, sure.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm not crazy about abbreviated reads lists with "null", "town", "slight scum", etc. Give me quotes or links or something substantial. That said, I promote posting and I'll read whatever you've got.

[Robz888]

vote: robz

Why?

[yuma]

vote: robz

Why?

games where I am annoyed with you, you are scum. I am annoyed with you thus you must be scum

[Robz888]

vote: robz

Why?

games where I am annoyed with you, you are scum. I am annoyed with you thus you must be scum

Ah. Got it.

[Teproc]

vote: robz

Why?

games where I am annoyed with you, you are scum. I am annoyed with you thus you must be scum

Interesting. It's exactly the contrary for me. Being annoyed with Robz is reassuring to me here.

[Robz888]

vote: robz

Why?

games where I am annoyed with you, you are scum. I am annoyed with you thus you must be scum

Interesting. It's exactly the contrary for me. Being annoyed with Robz is reassuring to me here.

Good!

(I am totally right, though.)

[ashersky]

vote: robz

Why?

games where I am annoyed with you, you are scum. I am annoyed with you thus you must be scum

And what about games where we are annoyed with you?

[yuma]

vote: robz

Why?

games where I am annoyed with you, you are scum. I am annoyed with you thus you must be scum

And what about games where we are annoyed with you?

Obviously town!

[mail-mi]

Vote: Mail-mi

Thoughts?

worst lynch ever.

vote: robz

Liking my vote on scotty, so no thanks.

sorry been absent, check vla thread.

[yuma]

vote: voltaire

[Robz888]

^^I was expecting that. I do have a big townread on yuma, for what it's worth.

[theorel]

There is nothing about the way the wagons are going down on scott/ADK that make me think that they are any more or less likely to be scum.

I think this game has been relatively stagnant, and my only real hope is that a reduction in the player-count and some concrete information will help move the game along.

[Voltaire]

Look, some peoples lists are kind of helpful. Voltaire's list, where he then crosses people off, is generally helpful because 1) He then focuses us away from specific people and toward others, and 2) His reads are much better than average.

Robz buddying me is a scum!Robz tactic. He's aware of it though, so I'm actually null here. We'll see if my thinking on why Robz is town is right soon enough.

[Voltaire]

vote: voltaire

^^I was expecting that. I do have a big townread on yuma, for what it's worth.

You were expecting him to return to me, you mean?

[Voltaire]

I think this game has been relatively stagnant, and my only real hope is that a reduction in the player-count and some concrete information will help move the game along.

Yeah, this to me is just big game D1 syndrome.

There are tons of people I would lynch at this point.

[Robz888]

vote: voltaire

^^I was expecting that. I do have a big townread on yuma, for what it's worth.

You were expecting him to return to me, you mean?

No, I was expecting him to unvote me after thinking about it

[ashersky]

Ok... but really we have gotten off topic.

To reiterate... I think teproc is scummy because:

1. he attempted to use a "policy vote" (yes I am going to continue calling it that despite our conversation about it... which I don't think anyone wants to get into again) against me and then sought out ways to later justify it
2. has gone out of his way to defend voltaire in a situation where I don't think he should have had such a strong townread on him
3. accusing me of OMGUS and attempting to discredit him when I believe that was apparently not the case.
4. has used a "meta" to justify this--really that I one thing that keeps me coming back to Teproc. Everything he has done this game has been based off meta-reads. Policy voting, townread on Voltaire, not liking claiming. Nothing seems new or original to this game. It is like he is sticking to what he is and not deviating from it in an attempt to seem authentic where I think true authenticity goes with the ebbs and flow and can deviate as the shape of the game adapts...

I think Voltaire is scummy because:
1. of the way he "well egged I guess I can't use" but flamed (is that ok) the fire of suspicion on me during my exchange with Teproc, again on something that was solely meta based--but this time certainly not true... my supposed tendency to only be frustrated as scum.
2. his sheeping and defending of teproc, again at a very early stage where I think it perhaps a bit unlikely that such a strong townread could be formed
3. also I found the quick to state ash as town, then backing off that as time went by to be a bit scummy
4. the fake irony thing joth pointed out


Add in that I feel that my argument with Teproc felt similar--if the content wasn't exactly the same--as my argument with Robz in Diffusion of Power--in regard to how everyone else responded to it... basically "meh, yuma is arguing again"

This is the post you wanted me to comment on?

I think you sound an awful lot like town!ash here.

[ashersky]

Vote Count[/color]

XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
A Drowned Kernel (6): Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, joth, Axxle
Voltaire (2): A Drowned Kernel, yuma
scott_pilgrim (5): mail-mi, ashersky, theorel, XerxesPraelor, mcmc
mail-mi (1): Robz888

Not voting (0)

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

We're at under 12 hours to go, and here's the latest.  ADK at L-2, SP at L-3.

[Voltaire]

Less than 12 hours to go? I may not be around at deadline, um, I'd move my vote but it appears to be doing a good job where it is right now.

[ashersky]

vote: Teproc

Anyone?  I actually think he comes out scummiest from the yuma vs. Voltaire stuff.  Voltaire egging on is more town!Voltaire misreading the situation than anything else (I mean that non-offensively).

[Robz888]

Not a single person commented on my vote for mail-mi, except mail-mi.

[Robz888]

Everyone should desert the Scotty and ADK wagons and rush lynch mail-mi.

[ashersky]

Not a single person commented on my vote for mail-mi, except mail-mi.

There really wasn't much to say.  Dude lurks.  He strikes me as a "overactive as scum because he's pumped" type.  If he's town, we get nothing of substance from the lynch info-wise, or wagon-wise.  I'm not a big fan.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm set on an ADK lynch, especially since there are a lot of people not posting and thus it'd be tough to get a wagon on anybody else.

[Voltaire]

Not a single person commented on my vote for mail-mi, except mail-mi.

There really wasn't much to say.  Dude lurks.  He strikes me as a "overactive as scum because he's pumped" type.  If he's town, we get nothing of substance from the lynch info-wise, or wagon-wise.  I'm not a big fan.

This.

[ashersky]

ADK is lynchable, sure.  I've got a fairly null read on the dude.  SP is scummier from the two big wagons.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Why do you think he's scummier? He's more active and so he has more posts for people to point to as scummy but I don't see his self vote thing as scummy. That's just me though.

[Voltaire]

Why do you think he's scummier? He's more active and so he has more posts for people to point to as scummy but I don't see his self vote thing as scummy. That's just me though.

Not just you.

[ashersky]

Why do you think he's scummier? He's more active and so he has more posts for people to point to as scummy but I don't see his self vote thing as scummy. That's just me though.

His posts have felt forced/contrived to me.  It's more gut than anything else, though.  ADK has literally done nothing of substance that I can recall.  If you can point me in that direction, that'd help.

All that said, I prefer lynching Teproc.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I haven't been posting recently because of VLA, and I wasn't posting much before that because this is a game with a ton of people and not much content, so I'm having a hard time reading people. What's happened so far? Yuma and teproc got in a fight, and then "lynch lurkers" wagons formed on me and Scott? Exciting stuff.

I don't like the scott lynch because he feels like his normal self. I don't like the ADK lynch for obvious reasons. I still like my vote for Voltaire. If I had to pick someone from yuma/teproc I would probably pick teproc but that would require a reread of their fight, which I don't remember all that well at this point.

Robz's "rush lynch a semi-random person" gives me a slight town read on him, he did on day one in Adventure Time too.

[Robz888]

A mail-mi lynch is strictly superior to an ADK or Scotty lynch. We've already wagoned ADK and Scotty and the way that went it looks like they are town. Therefore, it's better to lynch any other lurker.

Mail-mi is a lurker.

Therefore, we should lynch mail-mi.

[jotheonah]

the way that went it looks like they are town.

explain plz

[sudgy]

A mail-mi lynch is strictly superior to an ADK or Scotty lynch. We've already wagoned ADK and Scotty and the way that went it looks like they are town. Therefore, it's better to lynch any other lurker.

Mail-mi is a lurker.

Therefore, we should lynch mail-mi.

Hey, I'm a lurker too! 


Anyway, I, uh, got...distracted, and probably don't have enough time to do all rereads.  I'll reread scott and ADK and maybe others if I see the need to.

After every big game, I think, "I'm never joining a big game again."

Then I do...

[AndrewisFTTW]

^suriously.

I'd like to hear proper defenses from ADK and Scott but st the end of the day my ADK vote is more a gut feeling than anything else, so I guess I can be flexible in order to get a lynch through.

[A Drowned Kernel]

^suriously.

I'd like to hear proper defenses from ADK and Scott but st the end of the day my ADK vote is more a gut feeling than anything else, so I guess I can be flexible in order to get a lynch through.

I haven't been posting recently because of VLA, and I wasn't posting much before that because this is a game with a ton of people and not much content, so I'm having a hard time reading people. What's happened so far? Yuma and teproc got in a fight, and then "lynch lurkers" wagons formed on me and Scott? Exciting stuff.

[Axxle]

Vote: scott pilgrim

I was a bit hesitant because of the mcmc vote, but he seemed kinda townie when he explained it. (basically just all over the place, I think scum would have been more collected)

[sudgy]

I don't see anything against ADK or scott other than lurking.  Is that really what it is?

(man, this is a horrible D1)

[AndrewisFTTW]

ADK, that's your defense? It doesn't look like a defense.

[Axxle]

I would NOT vote Teproc/Voltaire today.

I would settle on a mail-mi lynch, but meh.

I would settle on a ADK lynch.

I'd much prefer a scott lynch.

No one else is worth mentioning at this point.

[Robz888]

Settle, settle, settle, settle

[Axxle]

I don't see anything against ADK or scott other than lurking.  Is that really what it is?

(man, this is a horrible D1)

Your current vote is very unhelpful.

[yuma]

vote: Teproc

Anyone?  I actually think he comes out scummiest from the yuma vs. Voltaire stuff.  Voltaire egging on is more town!Voltaire misreading the situation than anything else (I mean that non-offensively).

vote: teproc and yes ash that was the post above that summarized everything. I am glad you think I am townish(?) but am far more interested in your thoughts on teproc and voltaire, which you get to in this post, so thanks!

[sudgy]

I don't see anything against ADK or scott other than lurking.  Is that really what it is?

(man, this is a horrible D1)

Your current vote is very unhelpful.

I'm still around, but don't care much for either ADK or scott.  I'll vote for someone good before I go, but until I see anything good in the major candidates, I'm not changing my vote.

[Axxle]

Settle, settle, settle, settle

I put a settlement on the 5 brick, 9 wheat, 10 sheep intersection, with my road facing toward the center of the map.

sudgy's turn.

[Robz888]

Settle, settle, settle, settle

I put a settlement on the 5 brick, 9 wheat, 10 sheep intersection, with my road facing toward the center of the map.

sudgy's turn.

You'll regret that road (you always do).

[Axxle]

[yuma]

Vote: Axxle

This is where the party is!!!

[Axxle]

Vote: Axxle

This is where the party is!!!

Vote: Ax...

Oh, you almost got me, you tricksy guy.

Vote: scott

Robz. You are a natural leader and I know you think you're doing the right thing by championing a mailmi vote. But sometimes you have to sheep. The time is now. Bring your followers along. Paradise is waiting.

[yuma]

Regardless vote: teproc will happen if people make it happen. I can't make it happen. But there is enough dislike of the current wagons that I think it can happen (and probably should over them), especially if people go back and look at my case.

But seriously I think Axxle is worth looking at tomorrow. He was on my list of "lurkers" who hadn't received any attention throughout the day... mostly by avoiding being a true lurker and not really making any waves at all...

I am off to bed. I start my on-week tomorrow at work, I'll try to be on before I catch the bus.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Axxle will you be my BFF?

[AndrewisFTTW]

If not that's fine. I mean, it's not a big deal or anything, you know? Whatever. It'd be cool though.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm going to sleep too and I'm waking up right before deadline so I'm keeping my vote and I'll check back before deadline.

[Robz888]

I am definitely NOT going to be one before deadline. Hmm.

[jotheonah]

vote: mail-mi

I agree with everything Robz is saying.

But I also get a scummy vibe off Robz.

but mail-mi is still a megalurker who briefly emerged from lurking to vote for me for lurking.

[Robz888]

vote: mail-mi

I agree with everything Robz is saying.

But I also get a scummy vibe off Robz.

but mail-mi is still a megalurker who briefly emerged from lurking to vote for me for lurking.

I'm definitely playing much closer to my scum meta than my town meta, I'll say that much.

[Axxle]

vote: mail-mi

I agree with everything Robz is saying.

But I also get a scummy vibe off Robz.

but mail-mi is still a megalurker who briefly emerged from lurking to vote for me for lurking.

I'm definitely playing much closer to my scum meta than my town meta, I'll say that much.

Is this still a huge Robz scumtell? Admitting he's playing scummy?

Axxle will you be my BFF?

[Axxle]

(although that might have been Galz?)

I'll be on again in a few hours, which is the last time before the deadline for me.

[mail-mi]

willing to switch to ADK before deadline. I'll be able to check in quickly in the morning (hopefully).

not willing to switch to mail-mi.

vote: mail-mi

I agree with everything Robz is saying.

But I also get a scummy vibe off Robz.

but mail-mi is still a megalurker who briefly emerged from lurking to vote for me for lurking.

yeah hopefully it'll be better when the game is smaller.

[mcmcsalot]

willing to switch anywhere...

[Robz888]

willing to switch anywhere...

Great. Switch to mail-mi! There's no down side.

[Axxle]

Vote: mail-mi

I'll see where things are later.

Intent to hammer adk or scotty if they're at that point whenever I check again.

[ashersky]

willing to switch anywhere...

Great. Switch to mail-mi! There's no down side.

Teproc's looking juicy.

[Axxle]

vote: Scotty 2 hottie

[Teproc]

willing to switch anywhere...

Great. Switch to mail-mi! There's no down side.

Teproc's looking juicy.

Could you elaborate on why ? You just said I ended up looking the scummiest of the yuma/me/Voltaire thing, but I'm unclear how exactly ?

[ashersky]

The no theory thing, the reaction to the SK thing, arguing with Yuma.  No one ever looks good arguing with Yuma.

[Teproc]

The no theory thing, the reaction to the SK thing, arguing with Yuma.  No one ever looks good arguing with Yuma.

That last part sounds like it would make it null that I don't look good, shouldn't it ? Although i disagree with it (I think yuma looked really bad in the yuma/Robz argument from DoP), so meh.

The reaction to the SK thing which is supposed to mean I'm the SK ? That still doesn't make sense to me.

And how is it scummy to be against theory talk ?

You're just naming things that happened in the game, not actually saying why they're scummy.

[ashersky]

The no theory thing, the reaction to the SK thing, arguing with Yuma.  No one ever looks good arguing with Yuma.

That last part sounds like it would make it null that I don't look good, shouldn't it ? Although i disagree with it (I think yuma looked really bad in the yuma/Robz argument from DoP), so meh.

The reaction to the SK thing which is supposed to mean I'm the SK ? That still doesn't make sense to me.

And how is it scummy to be against theory talk ?

You're just naming things that happened in the game, not actually saying why they're scummy.

Fair enough.  I think your no theory talk was a grab for cred.  I think your reaction to the SK thing made you seem SKish.  You ended up looking scummy due to the fight with Yuma--true, most people would.  That's why you don't tangle with him.

It isn't a strong case.  This is a poopy D1 anyway.  I doubt we have the numbers to lynch, given the deadline timing.

[faust]

"Only the wisest and stupidest men never change."
- Confucius

Vote Count 1.12

XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
A Drowned Kernel (4): Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (5):mail-mi, theorel, XerxesPraelor, mcmcsalot, Axxle
mail-mi (2): Robz888, jotheonah
Teproc (2): ashersky, yuma

Not voting (0)

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014. That's in 3 hours!

[ashersky]

vote: scott_pilgrim

5 hours to deadline, I'm out for the night, no lynch is bad.

[theorel]

Current Vote Count:
XP (1): sudgy
ADK (4): teproc, andrew, volt, scott
volt (1): adk
scott (5): mail-mi, theo, xp, mcmc, axxle
mail-mi (2): Robz, joth
teproc (2): ash, yuma

So, deadline is in like 3 hours.  It'd be nice if we lynched someone.  I'll try to be back close to deadline, but these new wagons don't really seem to be helping anything.  Maybe if one of them had, like, a compelling case.  Even a compelling day-1 case.  In the absence of cases, you just gotta lynch someone, so let's just lynch someone and move on.

[theorel]

Current Vote Count:
XP (1): sudgy
ADK (4): teproc, andrew, volt, scott
volt (1): adk
scott (6): mail-mi, theo, xp, mcmc, axxle, ash
mail-mi (2): Robz, joth
teproc (1): yuma

ash moved his vote, and I didn't change my post before posting.  But of course, it impacted the vote count.

[theorel]

wait, 5 hours?  Is deadline PST?

[ashersky]

wait, 5 hours?  Is deadline PST?

Dunno.  Definitely 2.5 hours forum time.  I won a game of Dominion, so I'm back for a sec.  SP is at L-2.

[theorel]

"Only the wisest and stupidest men never change."
- Confucius

Vote Count 1.12

XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
A Drowned Kernel (4): Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim
Voltaire (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (5):mail-mi, theorel, XerxesPraelor, mcmcsalot, Axxle
mail-mi (2): Robz888, jotheonah
Teproc (2): ashersky, yuma

Not voting (0)

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014. That's in 5 hours!

Forum time this was posted at 7 am...so, can we please have this clarified?

Is deadline PST?  If it isn't forum time, could we have that called out specifically?

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK, that's your defense? It doesn't look like a defense.

The entire case against me is that I lurked (which is true and partially my fault) and people's "gut reads", which is not something I can actually argue against. I'm going to be around until deadline. I don't like the scott lynch but I'll go back and look at him again.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So what struck me about Scott's posts (besides the fact that there's so few of them) is that they all seem kind of... empty. He gets called out on lurking, then posts just to be posting. I'm not a fan of lynching lurkers because you don't get much information from their interactions later, but I guess encouraging interactions is why you enforce lynching lurkers in the first place.

Vote: Scott This is L-1.

Also, we're super close to deadline, but can we get a
Prod request on Scott?

[jotheonah]

I can drop the hammer. It doesn't look like the mail-mi revolution is happening.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm here, I don't have any reason to switch my vote, and I have no idea how I can defend myself since everyone keeps saying it's just gut feeling.  Unfortunately I don't really have time to post anything else and I probably won't be on again before the deadline, so I'm not moving my vote.

[Teproc]

I'm here, but I think scott is town, so I'm fine with no lynch if a scott lynch is the alternative.

[faust]

Forum time this was posted at 7 am...so, can we please have this clarified?

Is deadline PST?  If it isn't forum time, could we have that called out specifically?

Sorry, miscalculated. Deadline is forum time. So 45 minutes remain.

[AndrewisFTTW]

ADK the original reason I voted you was because you voted three people in two pages for not much reason.

[yuma]

Vote: adk

at work friend phone psot gone for day now

[jotheonah]

I'm here, I don't have any reason to switch my vote, and I have no idea how I can defend myself since everyone keeps saying it's just gut feeling.  Unfortunately I don't really have time to post anything else and I probably won't be on again before the deadline, so I'm not moving my vote.

come on guys. this is the towniest reaction to a lynch wagon I've ever seen.

vote:ADK

[jotheonah]

we just need two more! we can do it!

[Teproc]

A little annoyed that Robz left his vote on mail-mi since he won't be here to change it... as is we would need sudgy + someon on the S_P wagon to lynch ADK, but I don't even know if sudgy is here ?

[AndrewisFTTW]

This game should be called "Lurk Mafia: 50 Pages of Catching Up".

[mail-mi]

vote: adk

[AndrewisFTTW]

That's L-1. Should we wait for a claim?

[A Drowned Kernel]

ADK the original reason I voted you was because you voted three people in two pages for not much reason.

I was reacting to things as I read them.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So I say "I don't know how to argue against gut feelings" and people switch their votes to me, and Scott says it and he's townie for it?

[Teproc]

5 minutes for someone to hammer !

[Teproc]

ADK, do you think S_P is scum ? I know you're voting for him but that doesn't mean anything in your position of course.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Not overwhelmingly but better than null. I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped scum.

[Teproc]

mcmc I see you're online. You should hammer if you don't have a town read on ADK. If you do that's fine, but I think it's better to lynch a null read than no lynch.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: Adk

[mcmcsalot]

Yea just got on the bus and no lynch is really bad.

[XerxesPraelor]

Well, I guess this is better than nothing. We need a lynch.
vote: ADK

[AndrewisFTTW]

Let's make D2 more interesting guys. Clowns? Elephants? Maybe fireworks?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Dare I say Ozle?

[EFHW]

THREAD LOCKED

[EFHW]

Day 1 Final Vote

XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
A Drowned Kernel (eight): Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, yuma, jotheonah, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
scott_pilgrim (5): theorel, XerxesPraelor, Axxle, ashersky, A Drowned Kernel
mail-mi (1): Robz888

Not voting (0)

With 15 alive, it took 8 to lynch

[faust]

The situation in the conference room was chaotic, even worse than before John Rawls' proposal. Everyone was accusing one another to have committed the evil deed. "I'm sure it's one of René Descartes and Voltaire!", exclaimed Aristotle, but he was given little attention.

In all the noise, some of the philosophers remained oddly quiet. "Why aren't they talking?" asked Slavoj Žižek. "Aren't they upset? I always talk a lot when I'm upset!"

"Yes, what about Hegel and Spinoza? Don't you have something to say?", asked Schopenhauer. Now the attention was on them, but it was already getting late. "Quick, we need a decision", called Plato.

"Let's just lynch Spinoza", said Judith Butler. "I never trusted people from the other gender anyways."

With that, they grabbed Spinoza, pinned him to the conference table and stabbed his throat with a knife. As the veil of ignorance was slowly lifted upon his death, it became clear that he was not who they thought he was...

A Drowned Kernel has been lynched. He was Thomas Hobbes, the Naturalist Jailkeeper!

Night 1 has begun! Night actions are due within 24 hours. All players need to check in with the mods during the night, even if they do not have a Night action. Day 2 will start in 48 hours.

THREAD STILL LOCKED!

[faust]

There was a typo in the previous post, sorry. Day 2 starts in ~22 hours. Night actions are locked. Not all players have checked in yet. If you have not, please do so until Day 2 starts.

THREAD STILL LOCKED!

[faust]

As they woke up the next morning and gathered in the conference room, they noticed that some of the attendees were missing.

„Where are Descartes and Aristotle?“, wondered Kant. The philosophers decided to search their rooms.

Voltaire knocked at Descartes' door. „René, are you in?“ But noone answered. „We need to break down the door“, said Peter Singer, and with one strong kick, he opened the door. Inside, they found René Descartes, his throat slit, lying on his bed. Above him on the wall, some words were written in his own blood: NON SUM, ERGO NON COGITO.

Horrified, they closed the door. The sight in Aristotle's chamber was no better. They found the old man beside his bed, apparently strangled from behind with a rope.

Teproc has been killed in the night. He was René Descartes, the Town-aligned 1-shot Watcher.

yuma has been killed in the night. He was Aristotle, the Vanilla Townie.

Day 2 has started!

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (12): XerxesPraelor, Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, Axxle, mail-mi, theorel, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, ashersky

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Day 2 ends on April 20 at noon.

THREAD UNLOCKED!

[jotheonah]

So stoked about the Day 1 scum lynch, which means statistically we have this in the bag. I'm really glad I switched my vote at the last minute.

[jotheonah]

ooh, 2 kills means we have an SK or a vig. probably good to look back at the D1 SK discussion in that light.

[Voltaire]

Su-weet! I need a re-read.

[jotheonah]

NON SUM, ERGO NON COGITO.

I am not, therefor I do not think?

Loving the flavor.

[Voltaire]

Oh, and this guaranteed not to be a Vig shot, there's no N1 Vig. It can't be PGO, can't be Hider, and those are all the ways for alternate deaths - a SK is 100% confirmed.

[theorel]

Um, there's no possibility of vig in this game (except N3 vig).

It is possible that Teproc was killed by a 1-shot PGO, if he tried to watch them.

But, the most probable case seems to me to be that we have a SK.  But, hunting mafia seems generally more beneficial, especially when we've lynched one already.

So, to me one of the biggest question-marks is whether scott is town.  If he's town, then that pretty much clears joth to my mind, because he switched from the most viable town-wagon to his partner.  Also Voltaire and AndrewisFTTW are very likely town for choosing ADK over scott.
I found yuma and teproc super-townie after the flip also, but they're both dead...so that's unhelpful.

The last-minute switches/votes of mail-mi, mcmcsalot, and XP are not as strongly town as the others.  But still they get some town-points for it.

off-scum we have: me, Axxle, ashersky, Robz, and sudgy.  So, I'm looking at Axxle, ashersky, Robz and sudgy as the potential partners.  Given how yesterday went, Axxle, ash, and sudgy all come off pretty scummy (as I still lean towards lurkers being scum, and they were all infrequent posters).  ashersky seems especially scummy given how little presence he's had in the game (which is so very not town-ash).  But then again, Robz is self-admittedly duplicating his scum-meta.

I dunno, let's just start off with a vote on one of them, I'm going with vote: ashersky

[theorel]

Oh, and this guaranteed not to be a Vig shot, there's no N1 Vig. It can't be PGO, can't be Hider, and those are all the ways for alternate deaths - a SK is 100% confirmed.

Why can't it be PGO?

[Voltaire]

Oh, and this guaranteed not to be a Vig shot, there's no N1 Vig. It can't be PGO, can't be Hider, and those are all the ways for alternate deaths - a SK is 100% confirmed.

Why can't it be PGO?

It can, you're right. I made a mistake.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Looking back over this, I'm feeling

Town: Robz, theorel
Null: mc, yuma
Slightly scummy: teproc
scummy: Voltaire

Vote: Voltaire

ADK reads list. He seemed to be pushing Voltaire a lot but it could just be bussing. I was scum with Voltaire in ZM18 where he intentionally lurked. I'm sure you guys know scum! Voltaire better than me but I don't think he'd lurk through another game so soon after that one ended, scum or not, so I'm null but could be convinced with further knowledge of his meta. What do you guys think about that?

Before this there was a vote on Axxle. Here it is:

So it seems like people have stopped talking about theory and have are now talking about whether people should be lynched for wanting to talk about theory or not wanting to
As to who's scummy or not: it's hard to tell since most of the talk has been theory talk (besides the random wagon on Andrew) or people arguing over whether theory talk is good or not, and I have no real experience with that matter- I've never been in a game where a mass claim happened early on. I do find Axxle a little scummy for his repeated "I'll be back when theory talk is over", you can talk about stuff while other people are talking you know, or even try to stop them from doing it. Making excuses to lurk at the very least seems anti-town.

Vote: Axxle

This was ADK's first vote after a random sudgy vote. It was completely ignored which could've been the intention.

ADK reads list #2:

I don't see how I haven't "gotten much attention", there are four people voting for me, and that isn't a new thing.

Scott: lurking is within his meta as I'm familiar with it, but he could be using that to his advantage. Reading his posts, I can see the possibility for scum there, he's fairly noncommittal.

Voltaire: his posts during the Teproc/Yuma fight still seem a little scummy to me. The bit where he freaked out and drunk posted I wouldn't take as evidence either way, that's something town would do and scum would fake.

Axxle: I don't like his latest posts, or how absent he's been today (pot calling the kettle black, I know), I feel like axxle's generally more present than this. Here he shows up and says "not much to say, scott is lurking, I vote scott."

ash: is posting a lot less than he usually does as well, though he's regularly gone on the weekend and maybe he just doesn't see anything since it's day one.

People who I'm feeling towny about: Robz, theorel. They're doing a way better job of contributing to discussion than I am. After a reread Yuma looks townier than before, I get a decent vibe from his posts. joth looks fairly town after he jumps in. Not like 100% but definitely wouldn't lynch today.

XP is a lurky lurker. Is sudgy in this game? What's going on with him?

FTTW seems like normal, but I don't know what he looks like as scum.

My reread here was more of a skim, I'll admit, and I think I'll have to do a more focused one when I can early next week. People I would lynch right now would probably be scott or voltaire. I'm going to keep my vote on Voltaire, because even if he does flip town, I think we'll have a lot of interaction to look at.

And finally there's Robz, who was the first one to vote ADK, jumped off pretty early, voted joth for lurking, scott for lurking and forced posts, and finally mail-mi (huh?). Furthermore, whenever Robz says something like this:

I'm definitely playing much closer to my scum meta than my town meta, I'll say that much.

I'm inclined to think he's scum. So I think I'm gonna

vote: Robz888

[Voltaire]

I'm leaning scum!Robz, but that's my bias before re-reading. With a D1 scum lynch, things should be much much clearer than a gut read based off rememberances.

[Robz888]

I was shocked--pleasantly shocked, but shocked just the same--to see ADK flip scum. No one really worked very hard to stop the ADK lynch, which is baffling... don't scum know they lose?

I'm getting a scummy vibe from Axxle, but I'm going to have to re-read to make that case.

[jotheonah]

Normally, Andrew, ADK's flagrant townread on Robz would make me say "nope, they can't be partners"

But Robz and I have done the too-buddy-buddy to be partners thing as scum-mates before and it's worked brilliantly. So I don't put it past Robz at all.

[Robz888]

I would also be inclined to think I was scum, if I were not me, based on my late move toward mail-mi.

All I can say is that I really did this in Adventure Time, too. I tried to get like a random lynch going on Scotty at the end of Day 1, other than the support the default lynch which was on raerae (who was scum). The only difference between the two games is in Adventure Time I switched to raerae so we could have a lynch, and in this game I didn't because I was sleeping during deadline.

[jotheonah]

so Teproc and yuma are both dead. We at least know it was a town fight. I'm not sure I would have targeted either of them. Maybe the mafia and the SK each thought "I'll kill (yuma/Teproc) and then when he flips town, I can use their fight to try to convince town the other one is scum. That would be pretty hilarious.

[sudgy]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

Oh word?

[Robz888]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

Bah. I wanted to make a plea "Cop... please investigate theorel" right before thread lock, but I was sleeping.

[jotheonah]

hey, we got an IC. Volt, say lots of things.

for now, Vote: Robz

file this one under strong gut feeling.

[sudgy]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

Bah. I wanted to make a plea "Cop... please investigate theorel" right before thread lock, but I was sleeping.

I would have done it.  I had no idea who to investigate, so I just chose someone who had some interactions (of course yuma died in the night ).

[Robz888]

hey, we got an IC. Volt, say lots of things.

for now, Vote: Robz

file this one under strong gut feeling.

With all the other mislynches!

[Voltaire]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

Yaaaaay! Procrastinating re-reads is great, now I have another town read (I mean, maybe lying scum/SK, but why claim like this, why claim now, investigating me makes sense as town, etc. etc. etc.)

Slots 4 (1-shot Watcher, Teproc) and 5 (1-shot Cop, sudgy) have now been claimed. The existence of Slot 9 confuses this a bit, of course.

I swear to god, I am now going to be energized IC!

Also, I lost the game that was taking up most of my time (Newbie game), so now I can 100% focus on this one.

[Voltaire]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

Bah. I wanted to make a plea "Cop... please investigate theorel" right before thread lock, but I was sleeping.

That would also have been good, but oh well.

[theorel]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

Bah. I wanted to make a plea "Cop... please investigate theorel" right before thread lock, but I was sleeping.

I dunno, I know you guys have trouble reading me.  But I think I'm a terrible IC.  Volt on the other hand, might be good at it?

[Robz888]

Oh, that reminds me, I wanted to talk about ADK being Jailkeeper. That's really great we killed him! What a terrifying PR in scum hands! He must have been fairly high in the draft to go after Slot 8, which is like I think one of the more obviously "great for town" slots. So, I mean it's a good strategy to deny it, but you have to have high confidence you can beat out townies for it.

And I would tend to doubt that he got JK from Slot 9. Because, that would mean a townie got Slot 8, and DIDN'T pick JK. That would be odd, I think.

[scott_pilgrim]

How reliable is sudgy's claim?  Slot 5 and slot 9 would have to counterclaim, which means 1 liar out of 3, but slot 5 wouldn't know to claim unless slot 9 claimed and vice versa.

But anyway, assuming for now that sudgy's claim is legit, my lynch pool is now:

2.   XerxesPraelor
4.   Robz888
8.   Axxle
9.   mail-mi
10. theorel
12.  AndrewisFTTW
14.  mcmcsalot
15.  ashersky

Voltaire and sudgy both being town of course, and joth looks pretty dang towny to me after switching from me to scum at the end of D1 (I guess maybe he could be SK?).  I need to go back and re-read the end of D1 at some point, there may be other players I could eliminate that way, and of course we might be able to get something out of ADK's reads.

[Robz888]

I might as well get a ball roll rolling and say this.

I am a 1-shot Cop, and Voltaire is town.

Yaaaaay.

Bah. I wanted to make a plea "Cop... please investigate theorel" right before thread lock, but I was sleeping.

I dunno, I know you guys have trouble reading me.  But I think I'm a terrible IC.  Volt on the other hand, might be good at it?

The people who make good ICs are people who are difficult to read.  It's okay though, Voltaire will be a good IC, I just happened to have already thought he was town.

[sudgy]

The last few ADK voters get a townread from me.  I'll look more into his actions and others' later.

[jotheonah]

I was shocked--pleasantly shocked, but shocked just the same--to see ADK flip scum. No one really worked very hard to stop the ADK lynch, which is baffling... don't scum know they lose?

The thing is, it's not like there was this long period of time where ADK was the foregone conclusion. What there was was a long period of time where it could be ADK or scott. Why couldn't scum tip the wagon? Here are some scenarios.

(A) Scum didn't have the votes to push scotty through. Too many of them were already on him to make it happen.
(B) Scum had the votes, but was too scared/self-preservationist to jump on at the last minute and tie themselves to ADK.
(C) One or more members of the scum team is lurking/LA and wasn't able to make a strong push for scotty
(D) scotty is also scum

A and/or C strikes me as the most likely. I think we find scum on Scotty's wagon.
Still not ruling out RObz though, because his actions are consistent with B or D -- trying hard to get us onto a third lynch (I will not for completeness sake I was also trying to get us onto a third lynch. But I had the opportunity to hammer scotty and even posted an intent to hammer before voting ADK instead. So even if I didn't know my alignment, I would think I'm only scum in scenario D.)

Here's scotty's wagon: theorel, XerxesPraelor, Axxle, ashersky, A Drowned Kernel

I'm honestly ok with all of those people for a lynch consideration. My best guess right now is the scum team is Axxle and XP. Axxle was trying to push scott as hard as he could without looking scummy. XP was largely not around to help.

Vote: Axxle

PPE: 8 more posts, but just going to post this anyway

[Robz888]

^Agreement.

[Robz888]

I'm going to vote for Axxle, but I want to re-read him. Lunch first.

[jotheonah]

I'm going to vote for Axxle, but I want to re-read him. Lunch first.

Much better than No Lunch.

[Voltaire]

Oh, that reminds me, I wanted to talk about ADK being Jailkeeper. That's really great we killed him! What a terrifying PR in scum hands! He must have been fairly high in the draft to go after Slot 8, which is like I think one of the more obviously "great for town" slots. So, I mean it's a good strategy to deny it, but you have to have high confidence you can beat out townies for it.

And I would tend to doubt that he got JK from Slot 9. Because, that would mean a townie got Slot 8, and DIDN'T pick JK. That would be odd, I think.

Oh, ADK was jailkeeper? Shit. Awesome.

So that makes

Slot 4 (1-shot Watcher, Teproc)
Slot 5 (1-shot Cop, sudgy)
Slot 8 (Jailkeeper, ADK)

I'm re-reading, it will take a long time, nobody do anything insane like end the day or anything, but carry on. Activity like this without an IC is perfect.

[Voltaire]

I should explain that, for the purposes of today, I am going to pretend sudgy is town. I think that is A) most likely, and B) the most useful for today. Even if sudgy is the SK (which, now that I think about it, he totally could be), I think our goal today is to lynch ADK's partner. If we hit the SK, we failed but we win anyway.

[Voltaire]

No, sudgy isn't town. This game doesn't work like normal games. That could be his real role which, while useless for himself, buys him great cred and was theoretically a fine choice for mafia to deny it from town. WIFOM everywhere.

Open to counter-arguments.

[Axxle]

vote: Scott

They took way too long to cross vote.

Still vla.

[Voltaire]

Looking at the player list, I am pre-disposed not to lynch those I've struck out on D1: Teproc, XerxesPraelor, yuma, Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, Axxle, mail-mi, theorel, A Drowned Kernel, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, ashersky

lolz

[scott_pilgrim]

No, sudgy isn't town. This game doesn't work like normal games. That could be his real role which, while useless for himself, buys him great cred and was theoretically a fine choice for mafia to deny it from town. WIFOM everywhere.

Open to counter-arguments.

Oh right, I'm used to thinking with the mindset that claiming a PR without counterclaims makes you town.

I also agree with joth's analysis and that we should be looking on my wagon for scum.

[Voltaire]

New wrench: yuma could have been the SK, who converted to Lover (with Teproc). Mafia kills either of them. That's possible, right? I think so, but now that I think it through, the SK gets to choose their lover, and why in the world would yuma (town) drive his lover as mafia? OK, that makes no sense, I can disregard it.

[theorel]

No, sudgy isn't town. This game doesn't work like normal games. That could be his real role which, while useless for himself, buys him great cred and was theoretically a fine choice for mafia to deny it from town. WIFOM everywhere.

Open to counter-arguments.

He also could have taken Roleblocker or Slot 9 with a 1-shot cop available, and know that 1-shot cop is not in the game.  Lots depends on the roles other players took.

Claims are always suspect in this set-up.  In particular, after losing a player day-1, a scum-gambit of this sort seems more likely.  That said, I'm not heavily suspicious of his claim, just because claims in general are more likely to come from town, especially random unpressured claims.

[Voltaire]

For my own mind-grapes:

Day 1 Final Vote

XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
A Drowned Kernel (eight): Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire, scott_pilgrim, yuma, jotheonah, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
scott_pilgrim (5): theorel, XerxesPraelor, Axxle, ashersky, A Drowned Kernel
mail-mi (1): Robz888

Not voting (0)

[Robz888]

No, sudgy isn't town. This game doesn't work like normal games. That could be his real role which, while useless for himself, buys him great cred and was theoretically a fine choice for mafia to deny it from town. WIFOM everywhere.

Open to counter-arguments.

I've been thinking about how likely it is that sudgy is being truthful, and town. I think, if he's actually 1-shot Alignment Cop, he's town. If he's scum, why would he pick that PR? It's in the same category as Doctor and Roleblocker, which are things scum would much rather have. If he was Slot 9 and 1-shot Cop showed up there, I'd have to think something better appeared as well.

However, there are scenarios where he's NOT 1-shot Cop, but is claiming it for cred. If he's Slot 9 and saw 1-shot Alignment Cop, he could just pick something else and know he won't be counterclaimed on Cop. If he's Slot 5 and one of his partners is Slot 9, he could also safely take Roleblocker or Doctor and claim 1-shot Cop.

This means, I think, if town has Slot 9, sudgy is basically confirmed town. Right? Because the only situations where he would claim Cop involve scum having Slot 9.

[sudgy]

I don't know if we should be stating people's slots as fact until we know who has slot 9.  Things could get messed up if we do.

[Voltaire]

Sudgy could also be straight-up roleblocker or doctor and know 1-shot Cop isn't in the game because he wasn't told - scum are told if something from their slot is taken with Slot 9.

[theorel]

Questions and balance issues regarding Slot 9 have come up, so a few things will be changed/clarified:

Slot 9:

Whoever wins this slot will be given three random roles from other slots that were not taken by anyone else. They have to decide which of these roles they want within the first 24 hours of D1.
This Slot will only include roles that the player choosing the slot is able to have (i.e. no "Strongman" for Townies).
For balance reasons, the mafia and the SK will be told any roles in Slot 9 that come from slots they have taken.

Due to the changes, the deadline for role choosing is extended until March 29, 6 am forum time.

@Robz: you missed this perhaps?  Scum knows any roles in Slot-9 that came from their slots.  So, Roleblocker sudgy would know if town had a stab at 1-shot cop.

[Voltaire]

I don't know if we should be stating people's slots as fact until we know who has slot 9.  Things could get messed up if we do.

Fair point. I still think it's useful to keep a running list of what slot claims came from, though. The thread is massive and my re-read is very, very, very slow.

That said everything is still going great, I mean, D1 scum and all.

[Robz888]

Sudgy could also be straight-up roleblocker or doctor and know 1-shot Cop isn't in the game because he wasn't told - scum are told if something from their slot is taken with Slot 9.

[Robz888]

Oh, there it is in the rules. Was that changed at some point?

[theorel]

See my quote above...

[Voltaire]

Sudgy could also be straight-up roleblocker or doctor and know 1-shot Cop isn't in the game because he wasn't told - scum are told if something from their slot is taken with Slot 9.

See theorel's post.

[Voltaire]

Oh, there it is in the rules. Was that changed at some point?

Yes, during the bidding process. Ash broke the setup and created the change. See his giant post about it D1.

[theorel]

Hmm....is Robz faking?
I'm leaning no.

So, I'll just note that I can get behind an Axxle lynch, but I still prefer ashersky.

[Voltaire]

Faust: is the PGO told when their 1-shot is used?

[Robz888]

Huh.

[Robz888]

Yeah I totally missed that change. I remember hearing ash broke the setup somehow, but I guess I didn't investigate what got changed.

[Robz888]

As a plus, we have two ICs now!

[Voltaire]

As a plus, we have two ICs now!

Not only is this not true (you could be mafia or SK and no roles duplicating your slot were picked, which would result in you missing this), but...

[Robz888]

They DO work that way, when they are me!

[Voltaire]

(you could be mafia or SK and no roles duplicating your slot were picked, which would result in you missing this)

[mcmcsalot]

Sad but I actually feel robz is towny on this one. I thought the exact same things whilst reading the thread.

Axxle makes a good point about Scott and Adk being practically forced to vote eachother.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: Scott

They took way too long to cross vote.

Still vla.

I actually really like this argument. I don't know why, I just suddenly feel compelled to vote scott. It might have something to do with Axxle's mind control, but for now I'll just

unvote

[jotheonah]

could the team really be Robz, scotty, ADK?

[Robz888]

could the team really be Robz, scotty, ADK?

Nope.

[Voltaire]

FINALLY getting to the yuma/Teproc/Voltaire trifecta of town-v-town-v-town. Let's see how everyone reacted to that!

[Voltaire]

Have we gotten anything from Scott or ADK yet?

relevant to joth

[Robz888]

FINALLY getting to the yuma/Teproc/Voltaire trifecta of town-v-town-v-town. Let's see how everyone reacted to that!

I reacted by calling it as town/town/town!!

[Robz888]

Just did speed re-read paying close attention to Axxle. It's Axxle. He voted consistently to avoid an ADK lynch. Vote: Axxle

Mail-mi, Joth very unlikely to be partners.

XP looks pretty bad.

[jotheonah]

It looks to me right now like we're looking at either the Robz-scotty-ADK team or the Axxle-XP-ADK team.

Even if I've called a team correctly though, there's still almost certainly an SK out there and if it takes us two more nights to lynch scum that's a lot of dead town.

I have absolutely no lead on who the SK might be.

[jotheonah]

I think that SK-hunting will be the focus of my re-read tonight.

[Voltaire]

Just did speed re-read paying close attention to Axxle. It's Axxle. He voted consistently to avoid an ADK lynch. Vote: Axxle

Mail-mi, Joth very unlikely to be partners.

XP looks pretty bad.

Can you explain lines 2 and 3?

[Voltaire]

In fact, sure. Vote: Jotheonah

The first time Robz moves away from ADK. ADK was at four votes.

[mail-mi]

Sudgy could be scum, but we have so many other better choices thatl I'm not even going to consider lynching him today.

Meanwhile,  I think that Vote: Axxle is a good plan.

[Voltaire]

request vote count

[Voltaire]

I think I want to vote for Scotty. Vote: Scott Pilgrim

He's sort of lurky and his contributions read scummy to me. Forced, maybe.

But Robz started the SP wagon.

joth, I want your reactions to this.

[theorel]

It looks to me right now like we're looking at either the Robz-scotty-ADK team or the Axxle-XP-ADK team.

Even if I've called a team correctly though, there's still almost certainly an SK out there and if it takes us two more nights to lynch scum that's a lot of dead town.

I have absolutely no lead on who the SK might be.

Why not ashersky? Am I missing something? (also, not that I mind, but why not me?)

[Robz888]

Just did speed re-read paying close attention to Axxle. It's Axxle. He voted consistently to avoid an ADK lynch. Vote: Axxle

Mail-mi, Joth very unlikely to be partners.

XP looks pretty bad.

Can you explain lines 2 and 3?

Very unlikely to be partners to ADK, is what I meant. I base that on their strong, concerted effort to move the lynch to ADK at games end. His lynch was by no means guaranteed. They made it happen. Axxle, on the other hand, tried to distract from it, though he tried to be in favor of it at other times.

XP's post hammer attempt at hammer is scummy, to me.

[Robz888]

I think I want to vote for Scotty. Vote: Scott Pilgrim

He's sort of lurky and his contributions read scummy to me. Forced, maybe.

But Robz started the SP wagon.

joth, I want your reactions to this.

I think it's perfectly plausible that I, as scum, would start a wagon on Scotty, my partner, and expect it to fizzle out. That's how I would defend Joth's argument for the Robz/Scotty/ADK team, which is nevertheless false, of course.

[Voltaire]

Gotcha. I thought you meant mail-mi and joth couldn't be partners with each other. I haven't read the end of D1 yet but I assume you're right.

[Robz888]

It looks to me right now like we're looking at either the Robz-scotty-ADK team or the Axxle-XP-ADK team.

Even if I've called a team correctly though, there's still almost certainly an SK out there and if it takes us two more nights to lynch scum that's a lot of dead town.

I have absolutely no lead on who the SK might be.

Why not ashersky? Am I missing something? (also, not that I mind, but why not me?)

I think you're both on a mid tier of suspects, below Axxle and XP.

[theorel]

It looks to me right now like we're looking at either the Robz-scotty-ADK team or the Axxle-XP-ADK team.

Even if I've called a team correctly though, there's still almost certainly an SK out there and if it takes us two more nights to lynch scum that's a lot of dead town.

I have absolutely no lead on who the SK might be.

Why not ashersky? Am I missing something? (also, not that I mind, but why not me?)

I think you're both on a mid tier of suspects, below Axxle and XP.

But why?  That's what I'm asking...
Why is ashersky townier than Axxle?  I find him scummier, because his play this game is so subdued, and subdued-ash tends to be scum-ash.
Axxle's play this game just seems like regular Axxle play.  I mean, yes he's scummy for redirecting to scott, but ash did it too.
Heck, I did it, I must have said 3 or 4 times, that I just didn't find ADK all that scummy.
So, what I'm looking for is what Axxle did specifically that's making him scummier?

(I get XP with the post-hammer hammer thing, although I make him slightly townier because of it)

[Robz888]

If you re-read Axxle's posts and voting history with the knowledge that ADK is scum, I think he looks much worse than ashersky.

Also, I don't think that muted ash is scum ash. Ash has been just as insane as scum in recent games, let me tell you, sir.

I don't know what to make of ashersky, except he's had very real VLAs that I think are a better explanation of his relatively quiet attitude, rather than his alignment.

[jotheonah]

Robz is saying all the stuff I was going to say in response to other people's questions.

I think it's perfectly plausible that I, as scum, would start a wagon on Scotty, my partner, and expect it to fizzle out. That's how I would defend Joth's argument for the Robz/Scotty/ADK team, which is nevertheless false, of course.

If you re-read Axxle's posts and voting history with the knowledge that ADK is scum, I think he looks much worse than ashersky.

Also, I don't think that muted ash is scum ash. Ash has been just as insane as scum in recent games, let me tell you, sir.

I don't know what to make of ashersky, except he's had very real VLAs that I think are a better explanation of his relatively quiet attitude, rather than his alignment.

[Voltaire]

Vote: ADK

This is L-1.

I tried bussing my partner, I really did. But if you're going to give me a mislynch I'm fine with it.

Robz, your explanation for this? Partner giving up?

[jotheonah]

It looks to me right now like we're looking at either the Robz-scotty-ADK team or the Axxle-XP-ADK team.

Even if I've called a team correctly though, there's still almost certainly an SK out there and if it takes us two more nights to lynch scum that's a lot of dead town.

I have absolutely no lead on who the SK might be.

Why not ashersky? Am I missing something? (also, not that I mind, but why not me?)

I think you're both on a mid tier of suspects, below Axxle and XP.

But why?  That's what I'm asking...
Why is ashersky townier than Axxle?  I find him scummier, because his play this game is so subdued, and subdued-ash tends to be scum-ash.
Axxle's play this game just seems like regular Axxle play.  I mean, yes he's scummy for redirecting to scott, but ash did it too.
Heck, I did it, I must have said 3 or 4 times, that I just didn't find ADK all that scummy.
So, what I'm looking for is what Axxle did specifically that's making him scummier?

(I get XP with the post-hammer hammer thing, although I make him slightly townier because of it)

Just re-read the end of the day. Axxle doesn't just vote scotty, he does it several times. He keeps checking in, like he's antsy. He switches to mail-mi. He switches right back to Scott.

You're right, it could be ashersky or you, but Axxle fits the profile.

[Voltaire]

I see Robz as a darn good candidate myself right now. In addition to things everyone else is saying.

[jotheonah]

Vote: ADK

This is L-1.

I tried bussing my partner, I really did. But if you're going to give me a mislynch I'm fine with it.

Robz, your explanation for this? Partner giving up?

Man, I did not see that. That does make Axxle look a little better.

[Voltaire]

Look, some peoples lists are kind of helpful. Voltaire's list, where he then crosses people off, is generally helpful because 1) He then focuses us away from specific people and toward others, and 2) His reads are much better than average.

Robz buddying me is a scum!Robz tactic. He's aware of it though, so I'm actually null here. We'll see if my thinking on why Robz is town is right soon enough.

In addition to everything else, he's committed the sin of buddying me. All he needs to do now is discredit me and we'll hit the obv!scum Robz jackpot.

[jotheonah]

I can dig a Robz lynch here.

[Voltaire]

The person who I think should get the most town-cred from ADK's flip (where I'm at right now) is Andrew. Opinions?

[Voltaire]

Ash looks pretty darn bad.

There I go again as an IC, stating my reads. Oh well!

[jotheonah]

The person who I think should get the most town-cred from ADK's flip (where I'm at right now) is Andrew. Opinions?

no, it's totally me. but I agree Andrew looks good.   

[Robz888]

Vote: ADK

This is L-1.

I tried bussing my partner, I really did. But if you're going to give me a mislynch I'm fine with it.

Robz, your explanation for this? Partner giving up?

Man, I did not see that. That does make Axxle look a little better.

Absolutely, it's partner giving up. It's hopeless at that point and he needs to be on-wagon. Then mcmc switches to Scotty. What does Axxle do? Switches back to Scotty (eventually), because now it's possible again. This is a strike against Axxle, if anything.

[Voltaire]

The person who I think should get the most town-cred from ADK's flip (where I'm at right now) is Andrew. Opinions?

no, it's totally me. but I agree Andrew looks good.   

Oh, you do too, that's for sure.

Re-read is done. Based on ADK's flip:

Look mafia-ier: Robz, xp
Look town-ier: joth, mail-mi, Andrew

Everyone else either didn't react in a way I can read or reacted in a way that could be town or a bussing partner.

I don't think it makes much sense to lynch sudgy today, though I no longer really have any read about him. Based on the end of the day, I think the odds 1 of the 2 remaining scum are/were a lurker is pretty high.

Voltaire's lynch pool (which is statistically worse than your lynchpool, dear reader):

XerxesPraelor
Robz888
Voltaire - me + sudgy's result
jotheonah - ADK flip
sudgy - his claim (pass probably good for today only)
Axxle
mail-mi - ADK flip (right? Tell me I'm not crazy here)
theorel
AndrewisFTTW - ADK flip
scott_pilgrim
mcmcsalot
ashersky

I'm now going to spend a lot of time thinking about various claiming scenarios (number, slot, role) to see if there could be anything to them.

[Voltaire]

Vote: ADK

This is L-1.

I tried bussing my partner, I really did. But if you're going to give me a mislynch I'm fine with it.

Robz, your explanation for this? Partner giving up?

Man, I did not see that. That does make Axxle look a little better.

Absolutely, it's partner giving up. It's hopeless at that point and he needs to be on-wagon. Then mcmc switches to Scotty. What does Axxle do? Switches back to Scotty (eventually), because now it's possible again. This is a strike against Axxle, if anything.

mmmmmmmmmmmm point

[AndrewisFTTW]

Wow. I forgot about that Axxle post. I don't know what XP's deal is. Is he V/LA?

[Voltaire]

Robz, at the start of the game you claim

I spent hours thinking about my choice. I hope the rest of the town did the same!

yet you have committed a large number of egregious setup errors/misunderstandings.

Explain.

[Robz888]

Robz, at the start of the game you claim

I spent hours thinking about my choice. I hope the rest of the town did the same!

yet you have committed a large number of egregious setup errors/misunderstandings.

Explain.

I actually think that contemplating the setup is inversely related to understanding it correctly (at least in my case), at least in my case. Check out Adventure Time, where I read and read and read the setup over and over again, tried to organize a massclaim, and failed spectacularly.

I think I did most of contemplating before the slot 9 rule change, read the change late at night, and then forgot about it.

[Voltaire]

What's your read on sudgy, Robz?

[jotheonah]

OK, guys thing we haven't talked about.

This is a crazy conspiracy theory, but keep in mind that scum thinks it is boned right now after a day one lynch and the stats bear them out.

What if sudgy and Voltaire are the other two scum and sudgy fakeclaimed cop to make Voltaire an IC?

[jotheonah]

is there any way to rule that out, short of lynching sudgy?

[Voltaire]

I honestly don't know, but I would point to my own behavior towards ADK and his wagon to make others rest easier about me.

Also, how would lynching sudgy help? I know I'm town, he could be mafia or SK for all I know (even though I don't think it's likely).

[jotheonah]

he flips town cop, we know he wasn't lying

he flips SK, that's just confusing

he flips scum, yeah you look bad.

[Voltaire]

But in those scenarios:

1) confirms sudgy's alignment, but he's dead. confirms what we already strongly believe (I'm town)
2) great for us, but why would we do it?
3) great for us, but proves nothing about me.

At the cost of risking a player that's not really incriminated by ADK's flip? I mean, if sudgy and I are ADK's partners, we for the post part came out of losing our partner smelling like roses, more or less. There's no narrative I can see, and I'm trying to look at this from your point of view.

[Voltaire]

*most part

[Robz888]

We should treat Voltaire as an IC and sugy as likely town. Night kills/other results will probably weed them out. There could come a day where if they are still alive we have to think about them as scum more seriously, but I definitely don't think that's today.

[scott_pilgrim]

Sudgy lynch might be something to consider later if we keep lynching town but I think we have other much better lynches to do first (like Axxle).

[jotheonah]

I agree. I wanted to get it out there for the record and gauge Volt's response to it. No we can put it back in the drawer with the other conspiracy theories.

[ashersky]

On vacay, haven't read, on to say vote: xerxes.  Caught him last night, not claiming how.  He's naturalist.

[Robz888]

Vote: xerxes[/b], but we should wait until your vacation ends to lynch him.

[Robz888]

Screwed up the bold there.

Vote: xerxes

[Robz888]

Uh, well ash is VLA until the 21st. Does Day 2 end before then?

[Robz888]

Yeah, it ends the 20th. Well, I mean... good enough, probably?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Kay.

vote: Xerxes

[ashersky]

Oh, two kills?  Guess there's SK in game, too.  Xerxes is caught anyway.  I'm on a roll with PRs.

Now to the beach!  Might be able to read past day open tonight.

[ashersky]

No one should claim anything else, not slots or roles.  Just wanted to say that. 

Doc protect me if you are out there.  Don't claim, maybe we can follow me.

[Voltaire]

Ash, as long as you're cool with being the lynch tomorrow if XP flips town, I'm a-ok with this.

[Voltaire]

vote: xerxes

[Robz888]

I think ash is far more likely than sudgy to be scum attempting some gambit... his scum play lately has been extremely bold. But, I mean it's probably true.

[sudgy]

I'm not voting someone for no reason.

[Voltaire]

I think ash is far more likely than sudgy to be scum attempting some gambit... his scum play lately has been extremely bold. But, I mean it's probably true.

Agreed.

That's why I mean, you are the lynch tomorrow if this is wrong. No "Oh, the bus driver must have targeted me" or anything like that. If ash won't claim exactly what he's got (I mean, there's only so many options), that's the price he needs to understand.

And if he does and he's caught xerxes well great.

[Voltaire]

I'm not voting someone for no reason.

Ash has semi-claimed his role, and claimed an incriminating result against xerxes. That'd be a reason to vote for someone. If town!ash pops in, posts that he's caught xerxes because he didn't think through his result/possible roles, that's his fault.

That said, maybe I should stop assuming smart town play...

[jotheonah]

seeing as xerxes was already on my lynch list, I'm fine with him. And then Axxle or theorel's the partner, probably Axxle. But let's not vote too much more until XP comes in and makes an accounting for himself.

[ashersky]

Ash, as long as you're cool with being the lynch tomorrow if XP flips town, I'm a-ok with this.

Ill self vote to start the wagon.

[mail-mi]

Cool.

vote: xerxes

[AndrewisFTTW]

If ash was scum this would accomplish nothing.

[AndrewisFTTW]

What I meant to say is, this in no way benefits scum (if ash is scum) so let's lynch XP.

[theorel]

vote: xerxes, L-1.
Good enough for me.

[mail-mi]

vote: xerxes, L-1.
Good enough for me.

now we wait for xerxes before hammer.

[ashersky]

Oh, that reminds me, I wanted to talk about ADK being Jailkeeper. That's really great we killed him! What a terrifying PR in scum hands! He must have been fairly high in the draft to go after Slot 8, which is like I think one of the more obviously "great for town" slots. So, I mean it's a good strategy to deny it, but you have to have high confidence you can beat out townies for it.

And I would tend to doubt that he got JK from Slot 9. Because, that would mean a townie got Slot 8, and DIDN'T pick JK. That would be odd, I think.

Oh, ADK was jailkeeper? Shit. Awesome.

So that makes

Slot 4 (1-shot Watcher, Teproc)
Slot 5 (1-shot Cop, sudgy)
Slot 8 (Jailkeeper, ADK)

I'm re-reading, it will take a long time, nobody do anything insane like end the day or anything, but carry on. Activity like this without an IC is perfect.

Rereading.  We technically don't know if the dead PRs were original slots or slot 9.  Sudgy can clarify if needed (don't).

The less slot info the remaining scum have, the better.

[Voltaire]

Rereading.  We technically don't know if the dead PRs were original slots or slot 9.  Sudgy can clarify if needed (don't).

The less slot info the remaining scum have, the better.

Yeah, I figured that out a touch later.

[Voltaire]

In case it wasn't clear:

NOBODY VOTE XERXES UNTIL HE SHOWS UP AND EXPLAINS

Then we'll decide what to do. But if he's town, he should have a chance to give final reads/relevant claims if appropriate.

[Voltaire]

anymore, that is, since it's L-1. All the current votes should stay.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.1

Robz888 (1): sudgy
Axxle (1): jotheonah
scott_pilgrim (1): Axxle
XerxesPraelor (6): ashersky, Robz888, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire, mail-mi, Theorel {L-1}

Not Voting (3): XerxesPraelor, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Day 2 ends on April 20 at noon.

[mcmcsalot]

Wow well this day went fast and easy!

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, sorry for not responding till now ; I got into a minor accident and wasn't able/willing to check this. Anyway, this is an awkward situation. I'm the busdriver, and I busdrove robz and myself, who I thought was town in order to deflect the NK. It's a little too convenient, but that's what happened.
vote: robz

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well now that's interesting...

unvote for now.

[AndrewisFTTW]

So lynch Robz and/or XP till we find scum? I say Robz first.

If Robz is town, XP is scum. But is there a possibility they're both town and ash is totally effing us right now?

[XerxesPraelor]

I'll claim the number I chose if you want so you can check if I wouldn't be able to get it.

Rereading robz to look for his scumpartner(s).

[Voltaire]

unvote

I'll be working and at a baseball game all day, don't lynch without me, we've got time to sort this out.

[jotheonah]

unvote

This has been an utterly crazy day 2.

[jotheonah]

I thought busdrivers couldn't target themselves? Maybe that's just redirectors.

[jotheonah]

Also, XP, why would you want to eat the nightkill?

[XerxesPraelor]

Because this game has been going very slowly for me and I feel like I'm not helping town very much.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.2

Robz888 (2): sudgy, XerxesPraelor
scott_pilgrim (1): Axxle
XerxesPraelor (4): ashersky, Robz888, mail-mi, Theorel

Not Voting (5):   scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, jotheonah, Voltaire, AndrewisFTTW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Day 2 ends on April 20 at noon.

[theorel]

BusDriver is such an anti-town role.
This could easily be scum-XP who is in fact a Bus Driver, trying to push through a lynch on town and get a use out of his bus driver role.

First, town choosing Bus Driver is a questionable decision regardless.
Second, he had to choose to use it last night.  (any argument I can think of that says Bus Driver is a pro-town role, says you use it at game end as an attempt at a doctor+vig, not night1 as an attempt at a bodyguard)
Third, he did it to try to protect Robz.  I mean, you look at the scum flip, see Robz sitting there off-wagon, simulating his scum-meta, and say: this is the best player I could possibly protect tonight, really???

I'm just having so much trouble seeing a town-narrative for these decisions.  And finally, just to be 100% certain, because it is a common restriction:
Can Bus-Drivers target themselves?

[Robz888]

Well, I'm not scum. Let me get this straight: XP is claiming that he bus drove himself and me, so the result ash got is actually on me and not on XP?

I guess that' technically possible and ash is just lying. However, I highly doubt it.

XP, you have to provide some explanation for why and how you got Bus Driver. I mean, you actually pursued Slot 6, one of the most clearly anti-town slots, where there are no good town PRs if you do actually get it? I have to think there was something better than that, if you're slot 9.

Also, the idea that you would use it night 1 is a pretty big stretch, and if you really want to just like go out protecting town, wouldn't you have protected like yuma here? I wasn't going to be night killed. I'm too suspicious.

Yeah, I think XP is very likely the liar here.

[Robz888]

So lynch Robz and/or XP till we find scum? I say Robz first.

If Robz is town, XP is scum. But is there a possibility they're both town and ash is totally effing us right now?

No, don't do that!

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah this is really interesting, because now it's 1 (or more) scum out of 3, and it's not obvious on that alone that we necessarily need to lynch among those three (otherwise most of us are looking at 3 in 9 or 10 assuming Voltaire is town).  However, I agree with theorel that the town narrative for Xerxes's actions seem like a stretch, and the much more plausible explanation for them is that he is scum, giving us the only explanation that could throw a third option into the mix.  That is, if you're scum!Xerxes, you're best bet is probably to claim Bus Driver as he did, and given that his claim doesn't make much sense from a town perspective, I think it's much more likely that Xerxes is scum.  In fact I think you could make a case that it's even more likely that Xerxes is scum now that he's claimed Bus Driver than it was before.  On the other hand it may not be of as much utility if he flips town, since it doesn't mean that ash has to be scum.

So I think I'm still in favor of a Xerxes lynch at this point.

[Robz888]

Yeah, I think XP's claim makes it overwhelmingly MORE likely that he is scum, because now we know someone else didn't screw up ash's result with bus driving, which was always an annoying, possibly scenario.

[mcmcsalot]

Yeah, I think XP's claim makes it overwhelmingly MORE likely that he is scum, because now we know someone else didn't screw up ash's result with bus driving, which was always an annoying, possibly scenario.

Ha! Such a good point, xp baisically confirmed ash as town by making a reasoning for his claim, xp however has an unreasonably place in the story thus making it likely ash's regular claim is correct.

vote: XerxesPraelor I find it likely sudgy, volt, ash, robz, are all town.

[XerxesPraelor]

I chose 1 as my number and got really far down the line. I picked 6 because I thought nobody else would pick it, and luckily I was right. It's not horrible to lynch me (I'm just a named townie now), but if you lynch rob's we get 1 extra day to lynch scum.

[scott_pilgrim]

Ha! Such a good point, xp baisically confirmed ash as town by making a reasoning for his claim, xp however has an unreasonably place in the story thus making it likely ash's regular claim is correct.

Ash could still be SK

[Robz888]

I chose 1 as my number and got really far down the line. I picked 6 because I thought nobody else would pick it, and luckily I was right. It's not horrible to lynch me (I'm just a named townie now), but if you lynch rob's we get 1 extra day to lynch scum.

Why did you choose me?

[XerxesPraelor]

You didn't post much and were pretty townie: which would make you a good SK target.

Anyway, rereading, I think everyone should (after robz is lynched), look closer at yuma, who looks kind of scummy in relation to robz and I think would be a good lynch tomorrow.

[theorel]

1.   Teproc - 57 - normal
2.   XerxesPraelor - 9 "lurker"
3.   yuma - 44 - normal
4.   Robz888 - 56 - active Robz! weird
5.   Voltaire - 44 - normal
6.   jotheonah - 18 "lurker"
7.   sudgy - 9 "lurker"
8.   Axxle - 38 - surprised it is this high since I can't remember anything in particular from him
9.   mail-mi - 16 "lurker"
10. theorel - 30 - normal
11.  A Drowned Kernel - 13 "lurker"
12.  AndrewisFTTW - 26 "semi-lurker"
13.  scott_pilgrim - 15 "lurker"
14.  mcmcsalot - 17 "lurker"
15.  ashersky - 32 - low but semi-VLA

Here's a post-count from day1.  Robz's number 2 there also.

[theorel]

You didn't post much and were pretty townie: which would make you a good SK target.

Anyway, rereading, I think everyone should (after robz is lynched), look closer at yuma, who looks kind of scummy in relation to robz and I think would be a good lynch tomorrow.

yuma died and was town.

Robz didn't post much?  Let's do a post count:
Robz: 121
Xerxes Praelor: 17
theorel: 50
Voltaire: 126
jotheonah: 53
mcmc: 29
ashersky: 54
sudgy: 20
Axxle: 63
mail-mi: 23
AndrewisFTTW: 60
scott_pilgrim: 23

[theorel]

I forgot to copy and paste that quote into my post.  So read those two posts in reverse...

I'm wondering: what game are you following XP?  It doesn't seem to be this one.

[mcmcsalot]

Sooo were lynching xp right?

[theorel]

Have to say, I'm still pretty happy with my vote there.

[sudgy]

From XP's actions here, I'm fine voting him.

[Axxle]

I'm the bus driver.

vote: xp

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.3

Robz888 (2): sudgy, XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (6): ashersky, Robz888, mail-mi, Theorel, mcmcsalot, Axxle {L-1}

Not Voting (4):   scott_pilgrim, jotheonah, Voltaire, AndrewisFTTW

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Day 2 ends on April 20 at noon.

[theorel]

I'm the bus driver.

Seriously?  (just making sure, because it wasn't bolded, and it is you...)

[Axxle]

I'm the bus driver.

Seriously?  (just making sure, because it wasn't bolded, and it is you...)

Don't make me turn this bus around!

[Axxle]

Yes I'm serious though I probably should have waited to claim. Only saw xp's claim and not ash's

[scott_pilgrim]

So either XP is scum, or Axxle is scum and (at least) one of Robz/ash is scum?

Yeah, intent to hammer

I think XP should get a chance to respond to Axxle's claim though.

[Axxle]

No he really shouldn't

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sorry my phone has been dead all day and I haven't been able to charge it. I'm not really caught up but I saw Axxle's claim. I won't be able to reread for a while but if everyone has agreed on a lynch don't wait on me.

[jotheonah]

You didn't post much and were pretty townie: which would make you a good SK target.

Anyway, rereading, I think everyone should (after robz is lynched), look closer at yuma, who looks kind of scummy in relation to robz and I think would be a good lynch tomorrow.

seals the deal as far as I'm concerned. I'mma hammer. vote: xerxes

[Voltaire]

Hey, you lynched without me! But that's fine. Even prior to axxle's claim I was going to advocate to lynch through xp's claim.

Why is everyone claiming they bid on slots? Only people bidding for slot 9 bid on a slot.

[Voltaire]

Nobody wants to chat post-hammer?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Hi Voltaire, I'm about to pass out.

[Voltaire]

Hi Voltaire, I'm about to pass out.

Hi Andrew! I'm wide-awake but should be passing out. I was going to say things, but then you all did the right thing and lynched XP.

I'm most curious about how everyone seems to not understand how the draft went, and what that might mean. I'd say it's a slot 9 slip, but like 45,248 people have made it. So it can't mean that. Does it make those people more or less likely to be town?

[faust]

THREAD LOCKED!

[faust]

Day 2 Final Vote

Robz888 (2): sudgy, XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (7): ashersky, Robz888, mail-mi, Theorel, mcmcsalot, Axxle, jotheonah

Not Voting (3):   scott_pilgrim, Voltaire, AndrewisFTTW

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

[faust]

As soon as they've found the bodies that morning, Peter Singer blurted out: "I know who did this! Arthur Schopenhauer is not who he says he is! I secretly checked his room last night, and found all kinds of suspicious material."

"You're wrong, friend", answered Schopenhauer. "Last night, I swapped the sign of my room with Plato's."

"And why would you do that?", asked Singer.

"This world consists only of will and representation", explained Schopenhauer. "I thought, if I made everything represent me as Plato, and willed that I am Plato, that's who I'd become - and finally people would take me more seriously!"

"That is rubbish", responded Singer. Turning to the other philosophers, he continued: "This is one of the people that threatens the success of this conference. As preference utilitarianism shows, human life has no absolute value. Our preference to stay alive is to be weighted higher than his life. So let us lynch him!"

"By the way", Žižek threw in, "how exactly did you swap the signs, Schopenhauer?"

"Why, I used a bottle of glue I found the first night."

"Really", said Žižek, smiling. "Because it appears to my that this bottle is in my possession."

Now the other philosophers seemed convinced. Seven of them grabbed Schopenhauer, dragged him to the window and threw him out in one swift stroke.

XerxesPraelor has been lynched! He was David Hume, the Naturalist Goon.

Night 2 has begun! Night actions are due within 24 hours. All players need to check in with the mods during the night, even if they do not have a Night action. I consider shortening the night. If nobody objects, Day 2 will start in 24 hours.

THREAD STILL LOCKED!

[faust]

Also, for the record, answers to your questions:

Faust: is the PGO told when their 1-shot is used?

The ruling is here:

- 1-shot PGO can be activated in one single night and will kill all players targeting the PGO that night.

Can Bus-Drivers target themselves?

Yes.

[faust]

That night, the door of Bertrand Russell's chamber opened slowly. The aged logician arose slowly, looking around cautiously. The room lay in complete darkness. Then he heard the sound of something being thrown through the room, and in an instant, a massive porcelain teapot cracked against his skull. As life passed out of him, he heard a voice calling: "You didn't see that one coming, did you?"

Russell was not the only victim of the night though. As the philosophers gathered in the conference room, they found one of their own lying on the floor, his belly ripped by a sickle, and his head smashed with a hammer.

theorel has been killed in the night. He was Bertrand Russell, the Vanilla Townie.

ashersky has been killed in the night. He was Karl Marx, the Naturalist Mafia Cop.

Day 3 has started!

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting (9): Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, Axxle, mail-mi, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Day 3 ends on April 23 at noon.

THREAD UNLOCKED!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well that was nuts. So we just find the SK now?

[Axxle]

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

[Voltaire]

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

You did good, Axxle, you did good.

Well, we just need to find the SK. The SK is 1-shot BP, just a reminder to everyone. I think mass-claim is probably the right way to go, let me think it over carefully and come up with a claiming order if we do go down that route.

[Voltaire]

Actually, I think claiming would be a bad idea unless someone has an incriminating result floating out there. Pretty sure. It's how I'm leaning right now.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

Ha!

[Robz888]

Wow. I am a little confused about how all this happened. So ashersky and XP were partners. Ashersky fake claimed a guilty result on XP. XP claimed something he knew would be counterclaimed.

I guess the strategy was, ashersky was going to sacrifice his own partner for super mega town cred? And XP claimed bus driver to make sure he went down good and proper?

[Robz888]

It was an interesting plan, boy did it work out badly for him.

Axxle, why did you take 1-shot Bus driver?

We're in pretty good shape, by finding the SK is going to be tough.

[Robz888]

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

Oh, and thanks for trying to get me killed. Not! Why me?

[AndrewisFTTW]

This and the RMM game are my first experiences eith third parties so I don't know how much help I'm gonna be. Sorry in advance.

[mcmcsalot]

this game is rediculous

[Axxle]

It was an interesting plan, boy did it work out badly for him.

Axxle, why did you take 1-shot Bus driver?

We're in pretty good shape, by finding the SK is going to be tough.

Because fruit vender is too overpowered. I don't want to be responsible for breaking the game.

[Robz888]

And here's a thought: Did our Serial Killer seek the conversion PRs? He should have. We know he didn't get them. Theoretically, that clears everyone in the same slot as an SK PR.

[Axxle]

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

Oh, and thanks for trying to get me killed. Not! Why me?

You were the first name I thought of when trying to think of who isn't obv town this game. Still very vla so didn't have a lot of time to submit the night action.

[Voltaire]

And here's a thought: Did our Serial Killer seek the conversion PRs? He should have. We know he didn't get them. Theoretically, that clears everyone in the same slot as an SK PR.

We need to talk about this.

Nobody bid on slots except for the Slot 9 person (who may or may not be town).

Yet Robz, and at least one other person (I forget off the top of my head) has claimed/implied that they bid on a slot. I want to hear what people think about this.

The game is now basically find the 1 scum in 9 with an unknown set of PRs, so we have extremely good odds. That said, there can be a max of 3 PRs remaining in the game, and there is no guarantee that the SK does not have a PR themselves (in addition to their 1-shot BP). Town may have 0-3 PRs remaining.

We also need to throw away all the town cred we've been giving people. The SK was helping us find mafia - there's a higher chance they're someone we considered super-town before yesterday, I would actually say.

I'm interested in hearing feedback on Robz's idea of having any potential PRs that share slots with a SK-conversion claim. Those would be Slots 3, 7, and 8. I think it is a good idea. If someone from slots 3 (ash) or 8 (ADK) claims, we know that person is Slot 9 or ash/ADK was. This would also mean that if the SK tried to lie about this and Slot 9 is held by town, we could catch them in a lie.

Of course, there's also a possibility no-one got Slot 9. There's also the chance there aren't any PRs left.

Also, in case anyone hasn't realized it, I'm 100% IC now. The 1% scenarios where I'm scum no longer exist.

[mcmcsalot]

can't we mass claim which means that sk has to claim vt, or else we lynch what doesn't make sense. Then assuming sk claims vt, we lynch all the vt's? assuming we have volt IC and a few pr's who become IC's then were set. oh but sk can claim his real role becaus it could be anything, nevermind mass claim does us no good

[Voltaire]

And we can't necessarily lynch off what doesn't "make sense" - maybe Axxle is town and chose bus driver to keep it from the mafia.

Ash clearly chose mafia cop to keep it from town.

[Robz888]

What are you talking about? We bid of a sort. We had draft orders and then got to pick what we wanted and the highest draftee for each slot got the PR. Am I wrong about how it worked?

[Voltaire]

What are you talking about? We bid of a sort. We had draft orders and then got to pick what we wanted and the highest draftee for each slot got the PR. Am I wrong about how it worked?

We bid numbers, that determined the order. One we were told our order, we each bid on a PR or on Slot 9. Only one PR from each slot could be given out, but we did not bid on a slot, find out we won it, and then pick among 3 PRs, as you have said.

Bidding for roles:

Once the draft order has been determined, each player PM's the moderator of the game with the role they'd like to be (or "Slot 9"). Roles are unisex, in the sense, that they can be selected by Mafia, Town or the SK. Exemptions are the "convert SK" roles (may only be taken by the SK), and the Ninja and Strongman modifiers (may only be taken by non-town). So, it's possible to have a Mafia 1-Shot Vig or a Town 1-Shot Vig, and so on. Only one role from each slot will be awarded.

Basically, Robz, you've slot-9 slipped for a very long time and at this point I guess there's no dancing around it anymore, especially since I'm pretty sure they already know and tried to kill you.

And I have a running history of screaming "NOBODY TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT PLAYER X IS A PR" so just add this game to that list.

[Voltaire]

If you are town and are slot 9, I don't think you should claim your PR right now, btw.

[Robz888]

Voltaire, you are right, but I never meant to imply otherwise. I have used slot/PR interchangeably, probaby in a confusing way.

I will have more to say later today when I get to a computer.

[Voltaire]

Cool cool.

This is why I was against lynching Robz D1, btw. Energized, participating Robz means he's either a PR or scum. Of course, in this game it is also possible Robz is a SK with a PR. 

Anybody have any thoughts on how to move forward?

[Robz888]

Well... I think it's better if I don't say anything. I can't come up with a good reason to confirm or deny Voltaire's suggestion of my role. Do you disagree, Volt?

[jotheonah]

that was such an unexpected night turn out.

in an SK-hunting re-read, what are we looking for exactly?

[Voltaire]

that was such an unexpected night turn out.

in an SK-hunting re-read, what are we looking for exactly?

I have absolutely no idea. We may want to treat this as though it were D1. I'm open to other ideas.

Well... I think it's better if I don't say anything. I can't come up with a good reason to confirm or deny Voltaire's suggestion of my role. Do you disagree, Volt?

I mean, you can say what you want. At some point, I may really want to lynch you.

[Robz888]

Yea... actually, I can clear myself, basically.

I got to draft first. I outsmarted you all! I picked the number three, correctly guessing that would be the highest unique. It was, and I got the highest draft position.

I mean, I guess you can think whatever you want, but if I were the Serial Killer with draft position one, I would have been able to guarantee myself one of the conversions, which I absolutely would have taken. It's the correct move for the SK, and I want to win.

Since I had draft position one, and we have an active Serial Killer, I think I am reasonably cleared.

[scott_pilgrim]

There's still WIFOM, maybe you thought if you stayed SK with first draft you could convince us all that you were town because why wouldn't you convert yourself with first draft (plus you still get a good PR).  But anyway I'm very sure now that you're town and I won't consider lynching you any time soon.

I have no idea how we catch the SK now, I think this is my first game with more than two parties, and it seems like it would be easy to blend in with the town in scumhunting.  So I guess I see what Voltaire means when he says we need to treat this as D1 because we don't yet have any cases of the SK trying to push for a mislynch.

I don't think a massclaim is totally unreasonable here but I expect it to hurt more than it helps, but it's still something to keep in mind for later days.  Looking at the set-up if no one took slot 9 we would have the following slots left:

Slot 1: Night 3 Vigilante OR Vengeful OR Strongman
Slot 2: 1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner OR 1-shot Lynchproof OR 1-shot Commuter
Slot 5: Doctor OR Roleblocker OR 1-shot Alignment Cop
Slot 7: Neighborizer OR 1-shot Bulletproof OR Convert Serial Killer to Lover

So I thought I was going to come up with something helpful from that but I guess not.  But anyway there it is.

[Axxle]

Am I the only one who would not convert from sk? Scum is fun.

[jotheonah]

Am I the only one who would not convert from sk? Scum is fun.

No, I'd keep it and try to win. Absolutely. Pick the best possible role.

I actually think Robz is even scummier now.

[Robz888]

That's what you would do. Me, I care most about winning and having a winning record. You can ask my brother. Mcmc will testify that I always take the surest path toward victory, rather than worry about style. (Maybe you could tell them about Leaderslayer.)

[mcmcsalot]

That's what you would do. Me, I care most about winning and having a winning record. You can ask my brother. Mcmc will testify that I always take the surest path toward victory, rather than worry about style. (Maybe you could tell them about Leaderslayer.)

Robz would in fact go for conversion 100% of the time, sk's win rate is garbage.

[Axxle]

vote: mailmi
He's the only person I don't remember being in this game, good candidate for sk

[Axxle]

That's what you would do. Me, I care most about winning and having a winning record. You can ask my brother. Mcmc will testify that I always take the surest path toward victory, rather than worry about style. (Maybe you could tell them about Leaderslayer.)

Robz would in fact go for conversion 100% of the time, sk's win rate is garbage.

i believe it, robz should stop assuming everyone would though.

[Robz888]

Well, I find it highly likely that our SK is a VT who went after a conversion and didn't get it.

Maybe we should massclaim.

[mcmcsalot]

I am thinking we should masclaiming as well, simply because it gives is something to do.

Or lynch axxle because he's weirdly paranoid about everyone assuming sk would want to convert.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't see what a mass claim would do. Everyone can just say they're a VT.

[mcmcsalot]

Hold in I have a plan, give me a minute(10-20) to think it over

[Robz888]

I don't see what a mass claim would do. Everyone can just say they're a VT.

Well the point would be, if you are a PR, DON'T do that because lying is anti-town. So if all the townies, told the truth, than the SK would be among the VTs. One of the VTs would be lyning. We could narrow our search to those people.

Complicating this is, I do think there is one way the SK could end up with a PR: Choosing slot 9, hoping for a conversion PR to show up, not getting a conversion PR, and picking the best of the rest. This is one good way SK Axxle could get 1-shot BUs Driver, actually.

[scott_pilgrim]

I don't see what a mass claim would do. Everyone can just say they're a VT.

Voltaire would give us an order to claim, if we claim numbers and draft order and PR chosen we could possibly catch the SK in a lie (like if he claims to have picked 7 and got an early draft, then someone else claims they picked 7, then the first one is lying).  So I guess to me the bigger question is how likely is it that the SK would get forced into a position where he would have to lie, and I'm sure that would be very likely but I'd have to think about it more.

[Robz888]

I don't think the SK would get trapped, but I do think we might be able to eliminate a couple more people. Voltaire and sudgy are already totally cleared as far as I am concerned, I think I should be virtually cleared to all of you. Even if massclaim clears just one more person, it's probably worth it.

[scott_pilgrim]

and I'm sure that would be very likely but I'd have to think about it more.

*I'm NOT sure

[scott_pilgrim]

I don't think the SK would get trapped, but I do think we might be able to eliminate a couple more people. Voltaire and sudgy are already totally cleared as far as I am concerned, I think I should be virtually cleared to all of you. Even if massclaim clears just one more person, it's probably worth it.

Yeah this is also true, at this point if it's definitely not you or sudgy or Voltaire if we just clear two people it's a guaranteed (?) win.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay so I think only our CT's should claim, they should claim draft order and what pr they went for. This will potentially force the sk to lie or be caught with a high I draft went for conversion.

Downsides are little

[Robz888]

Okay so I think only our CT's should claim, they should claim draft order and what pr they went for. This will potentially force the sk to lie or be caught with a high I draft went for conversion.

Downsides are little

Ooh. I kind of like that.

Well, the downside is, we out the PR people (everyone who didn't claim VT!). Still, possible worth it, and probably the correct way to go about it? Obviously, Voltaire's thoughts are most key here.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok I'll do what you guys want, I have no experience with this.

[jotheonah]

I'm down for this plan. I'm not sure what PRs are still positive utility now that the game is hunt-the-SK anyway.

[jotheonah]

I'm a little worried this plan ends with me mislynched though. I won't say any more about that yet. I also worry about the snag Robz found.

Complicating this is, I do think there is one way the SK could end up with a PR: Choosing slot 9, hoping for a conversion PR to show up, not getting a conversion PR, and picking the best of the rest. This is one good way SK Axxle could get 1-shot BUs Driver, actually.

[Axxle]

Robz, who did you suspect yesterday? We might find an sk there.

Is like to think more about the Massclaim before going through with it. Still haven't been to a computer.

[Axxle]

@mod: is it possible for mafia to shoot themselves do to bus driver or redirection?

[Axxle]

Night 3 vig maybe should claim if they think they're likely going to be shot tonight, since the sk is bulletproof still.

[Robz888]

Robz, who did you suspect yesterday? We might find an sk there.

Is like to think more about the Massclaim before going through with it. Still haven't been to a computer.

Well, I mean privately, I suspected you (of being mafia), because why would XP claim a PR that someone else actually had? So I thought he tried to claim a fellow mafia's PR, but then you decided to bus him instead. In actuality, it looks like XP picked that PR to claim in order to deliberately bring himself down and give massive towncred to his last surviving partner.

But I never said any of that, because it happened too fast.

Out loud, I don't really remember who I suspected, other than XP. Oh, actually, Axxle, big time. Yeah.

[faust]

@mod: is it possible for mafia to shoot themselves do to bus driver or redirection?

Yes.

[Voltaire]

Robz, who did you suspect yesterday? We might find an sk there.

Is like to think more about the Massclaim before going through with it. Still haven't been to a computer.

Pretty sure the mafia tried to kill Robz, at least that's what I think happened, because he Slot 9 slipped.

Do note that Robz could be lying about drafting first, as there are enough dead people who didn't claim it wouldn't be the craziest gamble in the world. It is somewhat risky, but if there's something I know about somewhat risky, it is that Robz totally goes for it.

[Voltaire]

If everyone wants to mass-claim, I'll come up with an order and lead one. I do not "sanction" a mass-claim as the IC, but I also think any downsides, if present, are small. If it helps everyone else scumhunt, I'm fine with doing it.

Why does everyone think sudgy is a nearly-IC?

[Robz888]

He goes for 1-shot alignment cop as SK? There is simply no way. It's too ridiculous. He needs to survive. It doesn't help me do anything. It possibly even endangers him.

[Robz888]

Him* do anything

[Voltaire]

Good point.

[Axxle]

He goes for 1-shot alignment cop as SK? There is simply no way. It's too ridiculous. He needs to survive. It doesn't help me do anything. It possibly even endangers him.

Ash went for the mafia cop, sk might go for the sk cop.

[Axxle]

Role speculation is super wifomy, we should look at play instead.

Sk tends to play very survivor like, more so than mafia. We should look for that.

I'll reread maybe the day after tomorrow, have to deal with a few IRL issues.

[Robz888]

He goes for 1-shot alignment cop as SK? There is simply no way. It's too ridiculous. He needs to survive. It doesn't help me do anything. It possibly even endangers him.

Ash went for the mafia cop, sk might go for the sk cop.

But it's completely different. Mafia wants to deny town the cop roles. Their concern is staying hidden. And they want to get fake town and confused for towncred.

The Serial Killer is always in bad position. His concern is staying alive. The SK needs certain powers... and doesn't need investigative powers AT ALL. They are worse than worthless to the SK. in Slot 5, the Roleblocker is about a thousand times more useful to the SK than a 1-shot Alignment Cop. Even in Slot 9, the odds of getting nothing that was better than that seem ridiculously low. And if sudgy faked having it as SK (maybe he was Slot 9 and let it pass by), he took a pointless risk by falsely clearing Voltaire. What if Voltaire was actually scum? Then sudgy would be caught to the mafia.

And it's not like, "But he could do it for WIFOM!" At the point in time at which he had to pick a PR, there's just absolutely no way he thought, "I'm going to go for WIFOM by taking a role that drastically reduces my already small chances of winning!" instead of "I'm going to go for a role that unmakes me SK!"

[Robz888]

If everyone wants to mass-claim, I'll come up with an order and lead one. I do not "sanction" a mass-claim as the IC, but I also think any downsides, if present, are small. If it helps everyone else scumhunt, I'm fine with doing it.

I'm sensing a lack of urgency and posting. I think you should go ahead and do this. I would be happy to go first. Otherwise, I suggest Axxle gives a full account of his number, draft order, and rationale.

Mcmc's "just the VTs claim," is probably okay, alternatively. For that you probably just have to prepare a straight up list where each person responds VT/not VT.

[faust]

"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."
- Søren Kierkegaard

Vote Count 3.1

mail-mi (1): Axxle

Not Voting (8): Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, mail-mi, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Day 3 ends on April 23 at noon.

[Voltaire]

Some sort of mass claim will begin tonight.

Do other stuff until then.

Look, I'll help out! Pretend it is D1!

vote: mcmc

[mcmcsalot]

Some sort of mass claim will begin tonight.

Do other stuff until then.

Look, I'll help out! Pretend it is D1!

vote: mcmc

But I am town!

[jotheonah]

Axxle, Robz888, Voltaire, jotheonah, sudgy, mail-mi, AndrewisFTTW, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot

"Cleared"
Voltaire
sudgy
Robz888
~Axxle

Scumspect
jotheonah
mail-mi
AndrewisFTTW
scott_pilgrim
mcmcsalot

vote: mcmcsalot

[AndrewisFTTW]

D1 on D3? Cool.

vote: jotheonah

[Axxle]

I've always wanted to be a tilde.

[scott_pilgrim]

Wait, why is Axxle cleared?

[Robz888]

Wait, why is Axxle cleared?

I don't consider him cleared.

[Robz888]

So, Joth. Are you the SK? That would be kind of funny. You were last SK back in... let me think... Mafia III, it was?

[jotheonah]

Axxle is ~cleared, because he's only SK in a scenario that seems unlikely to me, on account of his bus driving power. I don't think he's today's lynch.

Robz, I would love a do-over for that performance, wherein I thought that claiming vig as SK was super clever and original.

But I didn't roll one this game.

Andrew, why do you think I'm the killer?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Why not?

[jotheonah]

I don't know. All I can point to is my 133+ scumhunting skills and those unfortunately mean nothing here.

Thank you Robz for reminding me about when I was SK, because it made me realize. When I was SK I was really really scared of being lynched. I think we want to look for someone who has either lurked like crazy or been really really noncontroversial. Someone who hasn't been worth suspecting, or someone who was suspected and reacted weirdly strongly to it.

[mcmcsalot]

I don't know. All I can point to is my 133+ scumhunting skills and those unfortunately mean nothing here.

Thank you Robz for reminding me about when I was SK, because it made me realize. When I was SK I was really really scared of being lynched. I think we want to look for someone who has either lurked like crazy or been really really noncontroversial. Someone who hasn't been worth suspecting, or someone who was suspected and reacted weirdly strongly to it.

It's day 3 of a 15 person game, this defines everyone.

[Robz888]

I don't know. All I can point to is my 133+ scumhunting skills and those unfortunately mean nothing here.

Thank you Robz for reminding me about when I was SK, because it made me realize. When I was SK I was really really scared of being lynched. I think we want to look for someone who has either lurked like crazy or been really really noncontroversial. Someone who hasn't been worth suspecting, or someone who was suspected and reacted weirdly strongly to it.

I think that's you!

[jotheonah]

I don't know. All I can point to is my 133+ scumhunting skills and those unfortunately mean nothing here.

Thank you Robz for reminding me about when I was SK, because it made me realize. When I was SK I was really really scared of being lynched. I think we want to look for someone who has either lurked like crazy or been really really noncontroversial. Someone who hasn't been worth suspecting, or someone who was suspected and reacted weirdly strongly to it.

I think that's you!

Someone OTHER than me. On account of, I'm town.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh. Well then I'm sorry joth! 

[sudgy]

I just realized I haven't posted at all today.  I've been reading but haven't found anything to talk about...

[jotheonah]

sudgy, your ever-so-helpful signature says you've been SK twice. help us get inside the mind of the beast. how would you be playing right now as an SK?

[sudgy]

sudgy, your ever-so-helpful signature says you've been SK twice. help us get inside the mind of the beast. how would you be playing right now as an SK?

Don't worry about BMXI, everybody was a SK that game and I used my suicide bomb N0.

Anyway, earlier I would be scumhunting and playing mostly like my town self unless I am about to get lynched (where I would probably start acting just like MXXXII (i.e. freaking out)).  At this point I would try to play as scum, which is still trying to play like my town self.  I play scum differently than most people (I don't worry about trying to push mislynches and such, I just try to scumhunt even though in the back of my mind I know that I'm wrong (I can never remember if something I said was in a town game or a scum game sometimes because I don't think about how I'm scum sometimes when posting as scum)), so I don't know if my advice is the best advice ever.

If there's someone that was freaking out when they were almost lynched, I think that could tell us that they are SK.  I can't easily think of something else at the moment outside of that.

[Robz888]

No one really came close to being lynched, except the people we lynched.

Voltaire, we need your order!

[jotheonah]

You know who has been a little disproportionately defensive? Andrew

12.  AndrewisFTTW - oh weird he disappeared

Oh weird I was on a gig and just got off. If you have a scum read on me just say it instead of subtly suggesting that I'm lurking or whatever it is you're doing. It's annoying.

[Robz888]

I agree! But I'm also kind of suspicious of Scott, and that's virtually everyone.

I think the two people I least suspect of being the SK are mcmc and mail-mi, who I THINK would actually be more involved if they had anything special going on.

[jotheonah]

vote: AndrewisFTTW

[AndrewisFTTW]

I was defensive because that was the second time Voltaire singled me out for no apparent reason while listing everyone else as lurking. Really I just wanted him to speak his mind instead of beating around the bush.

[Voltaire]

No one really came close to being lynched, except the people we lynched.

Voltaire, we need your order!

I said it would come today and it will! I was at my new job that doesn't allow for on-the-clock mafia.

I'm catching up now, I'm happy to see people suspecting axxle and joth.

[Voltaire]

I was defensive because that was the second time Voltaire singled me out for no apparent reason while listing everyone else as lurking. Really I just wanted him to speak his mind instead of beating around the bush.

But you were lurking (albeit with good reason). What's this first time you speak of?

[Voltaire]

unvote

Let it be known that I, Voltaire, the 99.99999999999999999999999% Innocent Child (I thought of a scenario where I could still be SK on the train home today, but it involves other people lying/playing horribly as town), hereby declare that we are going to mass claim.

Let it be known that I do not think this is good or bad, and that I think this will dominate the discussion a little too much today. However, I also buy the argument that we need something to kickstart the conversation for some of our fellow townies, and since we can likely afford at least 2 mislynches, probably 3, and theoretically more, I'm going against my better judgement.

What this means is, do with this info what you will. Do not fall into the trap of not lynching someone because of their role. Remember this on later days if I am dead. Only avoid this if we reveal some scenario where we can catch people in a lie.

We are going to claim number, draft slot, and role. If you're a VT, please claim the role you tried for and did not receive. Since we had so many people die, this might not be at all helpful due to the ease of lying that will be possible for our friendly neighborhood SK. Also note that the SK may not even need to lie about anything.

The claiming order (if two people are listed on the same line, they may claim in any order as long as all players listed before them have claimed):

1. jotheonah/AndrewisFTTW
2. mail-mi/mcmc/scott_p
3. Robz
4. sudgy/axxle
5. Voltaire

joth/Andrew, you two are on the clock!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think I got you confused with Axxle when he called my play "nonexistent". Sorry if I killed your buzz!

[Voltaire]

I think I got you confused with Axxle when he called my play "nonexistent". Sorry if I killed your buzz!

That's ok! Claim!

[Voltaire]

Oh, and it should go without saying, but I'm going to say it anyway: DO NOT LIE AS TOWN

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm a VT, I chose number 18 and I tried for neighborizer.

[Voltaire]

I'm a VT, I chose number 18 and I tried for neighborizer.

Thanks. What was your rank in the draft order?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm a VT, I chose number 18 and I tried for neighborizer.

Thanks. What was your rank in the draft order?

10

[jotheonah]

Ok, so here's the rough part.

I didn't really read the setup and I didn't know how drafting worked when I did it.

So I picked 33, which in retrospect seems obnoxiously high.

I tried for mafia cop.

I got VT.

[jotheonah]

My rank in draft order was 11.

[Axxle]

I am going to consider whoever claims first out of mail-mi/mcmc/scott_p as a bit more town than the rest.

[Voltaire]

I am going to consider whoever claims first out of mail-mi/mcmc/scott_p as a bit more town than the rest.

I threw all the lurkers together (where prudent) so they couldn't lurk their way into making this take forever. That's the goal, at least.

All three of you, claim in your next post.

[scott_pilgrim]

I picked 16 based on an RNG based thing that I did that I don't really remember how it worked.  I got 9th order I think (I'll double check that in a minute).

I went for slot 8 (tracker) which in retrospect seems like maybe a mistake because I ended up with VT and that's a powerful slot and I was pretty late in the draft, but most of the other options were things that either seemed like negative utility to town or things I expected to get taken, or things I didn't know how to take advantage of.

[scott_pilgrim]

I got 9th order I think (I'll double check that in a minute).

Yeah this is correct.

[Axxle]

I am going to consider whoever claims first out of mail-mi/mcmc/scott_p as a bit more town than the rest.

I am going to consider whoever claims first out of mail-mi/mcmc as a bit more scum than the other.

[Axxle]

I am going to consider whoever claims first out of mail-mi/mcmc/scott_p as a bit more town than the rest.

I am going to consider whoever claims last out of mail-mi/mcmc as a bit more scum than the other.

whoops

[Robz888]

Ok, so here's the rough part.

I didn't really read the setup and I didn't know how drafting worked when I did it.

So I picked 33, which in retrospect seems obnoxiously high.

I tried for mafia cop.

I got VT.

Nice. Very believable claim from you, makes me think you are more likely town.

[Axxle]

Ok, so here's the rough part.

I didn't really read the setup and I didn't know how drafting worked when I did it.

So I picked 33, which in retrospect seems obnoxiously high.

I tried for mafia cop.

I got VT.

Nice. Very believable claim from you, makes me think you are more likely town.

Can we wait on these types of posts until after the massclaim? I do have some comments but I don't want to skew claiming.

[Axxle]

@mod: request prod for mailmi

[Voltaire]

Yeah, please refrain from commenting until we are done.

[Robz888]

Okay that's fine, but I do want to say, actual should claim before me.

[Voltaire]

Okay that's fine, but I do want to say, actual should claim before me.

I see no reason why. He's already claimed role, targets. You've already claimed draft slot.

Axxle is claiming before you.

[Voltaire]

Sorry, I obviously meant after you.

[Axxle]

Okay that's fine, but I do want to say, actual should claim before me.

Vote: actual

Didn't even know he was in the game.

Vote: mail-mi

[Voltaire]

Robz, the posts I just made assume your auto-correct error was referring to Axxle.

[Robz888]

It was referring to Axxle.

Axle should claim first.

[Axxle]

Axle

:((((

[Robz888]

Ipad posting is hard!!!!

[Axxle]

Robz, let the IC do what you asked the IC to do.

[Voltaire]

Robz, I am currently considering your request.

[Axxle]

I honestly don't know how you think my claim is going to be affected by yours. Yours very well might be.

[Voltaire]

Request rejected. The claim order remains the same as the original. mail-mi and mcmc are currently up.

[Voltaire]

Request rejected. The claim order remains the same as the original. mail-mi and mcmc are currently up.

And I am now toying with requesting Robz claim now.

[mail-mi]

I'm here I'm here. So my story is kind of weird, but....

So I put in the number 4. I got 14th in the draft order . I thought "what the heck," and went for one of the least likely to be chosen. Because I get lynched a lot I decided to go for one-shot lynchproof.

And got it.

I'm 1-shot lynchproof

[Voltaire]

1. mcmc
2. Robz
3. sudgy/axxle
4. Voltaire

This is where we stand. Once mcmc and Robz have claimed, sudgy and Axxle may claim in any order.

[mail-mi]

I'm here I'm here. So my story is kind of weird, but....

So I put in the number 4. I got 14th in the draft order . I thought "what the heck," and went for one of the least likely to be chosen. Because I get lynched a lot I decided to go for one-shot lynchproof.

And got it.

I'm 1-shot lynchproof

Oh and i'm town, just in case that wasn't clear.

[jotheonah]

I'm here I'm here. So my story is kind of weird, but....

So I put in the number 4. I got 14th in the draft order . I thought "what the heck," and went for one of the least likely to be chosen. Because I get lynched a lot I decided to go for one-shot lynchproof.

And got it.

I'm 1-shot lynchproof

Oh and i'm town, just in case that wasn't clear.

It sure wasn't.

[Robz888]

I'm here I'm here. So my story is kind of weird, but....

So I put in the number 4. I got 14th in the draft order . I thought "what the heck," and went for one of the least likely to be chosen. Because I get lynched a lot I decided to go for one-shot lynchproof.

And got it.

I'm 1-shot lynchproof

Oh and i'm town, just in case that wasn't clear.

It sure wasn't.

+1

[Robz888]

I know we are supposed to wait to comment, but damn it mail-mi!!! That's going to be a big problem.

[mail-mi]

I know we are supposed to wait to comment, but damn it mail-mi!!! That's going to be a big problem.

...?

[mcmcsalot]

Okay I picked the number 14, it is my number in the player select list, had all townies done the(excluding what the sk does) and mafia guesses say 2,3,4(best numbers in my opinion) XerxesPraelor gets the second slot and all other mafiosos get last(along with town counterparts) this in my mind was a good stategy for town as well as it being a number I felt was good for me compared to my level of town play.

I got draft position 8, and went for slot 9, I figured I had my pick between the worst role slot or a chance no one had gone for slot 9 yet. I figured slot 9 was low priority but higher reward than the worst slot(which I still had a good chance of not getting)

[Voltaire]

And what is your role?

[sudgy]

Hurry up, It'll be a while if I can't claim tonight.

[Voltaire]

mcmc, claim your role.

[Robz888]

Okay I picked the number 14, it is my number in the player select list, had all townies done the(excluding what the sk does) and mafia guesses say 2,3,4(best numbers in my opinion) XerxesPraelor gets the second slot and all other mafiosos get last(along with town counterparts) this in my mind was a good stategy for town as well as it being a number I felt was good for me compared to my level of town play.

I got draft position 8, and went for slot 9, I figured I had my pick between the worst role slot or a chance no one had gone for slot 9 yet. I figured slot 9 was low priority but higher reward than the worst slot(which I still had a good chance of not getting)

And did you get it? What were your choices?? What did you pick??? Vote: mcmcsalot*

*Vote of frustration, not seriousness

[Robz888]

Super super duper scummy though, bro. Looks like you're taking time to think about what you want to say next.

[Axxle]

[mcmcsalot]

Oh sorry sorry sorry I'm a vt. I didn't get it

[mcmcsalot]

It was late, I had been drinking, I literally posted and went to bed, I just got up.

[Voltaire]

1. Robz
2. sudgy/axxle
3. Voltaire

This is where we are. I will now be gone for the next 10-12 hours. Hopefully we can finish the mass-claim except for me in that time.

If Robz refuses to claim, poke him with sticks or lynch him, I don't mind either way.

[faust]

"Eloquence, at its highest pitch, leaves little room for reason or reflection, but addresses itself entirely to the desires and affections, captivating the willing hearers, and subduing their understanding."
- David Hume

Vote Count 3.2

mail-mi (1): Axxle
jotheonah (1): AndrewisFTTW
AndrewisFTTW (1): jotheonah
mcmcsalot (1): Robz888

Not Voting (5): sudgy, mail-mi, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Day 3 ends on April 23 at noon.

[Robz888]

Fine. As I have already said, I outsmarted you all by picking the number 3. This gave me first position in the draft. I thought long and hard about my choice, knowing that I would automatically get whatever I took. Doctor and Cop aren't good roles for me (I want other people to use those PRs on me). Jailkeeper is I think potentially the most powerful think, but I don't have the best track record wit it. I was very intrigued by slot 9, but ultimately I decided the best thing I could do was deny mafia a strong PR by picking a good slot for mafia. I think that's slot 1. Vengeful is an extremely strong role for mafia, as is strongman.

So I chose Night 3 Vigilante from Slot 1, and hoped that mafia would go for it and town would go for slot 9.

I was thinking this was going to pretty useless at this point against a 1-shot BP SK... but, well, I will obviously be killing mail-mi, and that's a good thing, I think.

[jotheonah]

Robz, I would love a do-over for that performance, wherein I thought that claiming vig as SK was super clever and original.

[Axxle]

I want to comment! Bah.

I picked 1 because 1 is the best number to pick obviously. I mean it's the lowest positive integer! I thought that people would be too paranoid to choose so low, I was wrong.

I ended up drafting 13th. I picked the set of roles that looked the worst so I'd have the best chance of getting it. Slot 6 bus driver. Got it and here I am.

[sudgy]

I didn't understand the setup pretty much at all (I understand it now), and didn't know what exactly was going on.  After jokingly choosing Graham's Number, I went with 9 seeing something in the setup about 9 being an alternative to choosing a role (yep, I was that stupid).

I got draft position 6, and went with Slot 9 since I didn't care what role I got.  I got it, and I could have chosen a Roleblocker, 1-shot Alignment Cop, or a Role Cop.  I don't think town roleblockers are that great, and I knew that town or mafia could get the same roles so I didn't think the role cop would be that great, so I went with the 1-shot cop.

[Robz888]

Robz, I would love a do-over for that performance, wherein I thought that claiming vig as SK was super clever and original.

Well, that's kind of different, though. Your claim was theoretically a way to excuse all these extra night kills you were creating. I just do a vig shot once, and it would be in addition my SK shot, if I was SK.

[jotheonah]

Robz, I would love a do-over for that performance, wherein I thought that claiming vig as SK was super clever and original.

Well, that's kind of different, though. Your claim was theoretically a way to excuse all these extra night kills you were creating. I just do a vig shot once, and it would be in addition my SK shot, if I was SK.

You're right, of course. I'm just joshing.

[Robz888]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

[Robz888]

I'm going to make like a list or something to keep all this straight.

[Axxle]

Copied from my QT (whoops!).

Robz888: Pick 1, Slot 1, N3 Vig.

sudgy: Pick 6, Slot 9, 1-shot Alignment Cop.

mcmcsalot: Pick 8, Slot 9, VT

scott_pilgrim: Pick 9, Slot 8, VT (tried for tracker)

AndrewisFTTW: Pick 10, Slot 7, VT (tried for neighborizer).

jotheonah: Pick 11, Slot 3, VT (tried for cop).

Axxle: Pick 13, Slot 6, 1-shot Bus Driver.

mail-mi: Pick 14, Slot 2, 1-shot Lynchproof.

[jotheonah]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

[scott_pilgrim]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

...And if mail-mi flips town, we know Robz is the SK.

[Robz888]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

...And if mail-mi flips town, we know Robz is the SK.

That's not true at all. He might just be a lynchproof townie, like he claims. Him being town doesn't implicate me.

[Robz888]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

Yeah, but that's not really of my doing, is it?

[Robz888]

And as I've said before, and hopefully mcmc confirmed for you, if I was SK with guaranteed PR choice, I would take convert to townie or convert to Survivor. Probably convert to Survivor, claim immediately, sit back and collect an easy win.

[jotheonah]

+ the dead

Robz888: Pick 1, Slot 1, N3 Vig.

sudgy: Pick 6, Slot 9, 1-shot Alignment Cop.

mcmcsalot: Pick 8, Slot 9, VT

scott_pilgrim: Pick 9, Slot 8, VT (tried for tracker)

AndrewisFTTW: Pick 10, Slot 7, VT (tried for neighborizer).

jotheonah: Pick 11, Slot 3, VT (tried for cop).

Axxle: Pick 13, Slot 6, 1-shot Bus Driver.

mail-mi: Pick 14, Slot 2, 1-shot Lynchproof.

Teproc: Pick ??, Slot 4, 1-shot watcher

XP: Pick ??, Slot ??, Goon

yuma: Pick ??, Slot ??, VT

ADK: Pick ??, Slot 8, Jailkeeper

theorel: Pick ??, Slot ??, VT

ashersky: Pick ??, Slot 3, mafia cop

[scott_pilgrim]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

...And if mail-mi flips town, we know Robz is the SK.

That's not true at all. He might just be a lynchproof townie, like he claims. Him being town doesn't implicate me.

No I'm saying if he doesn't die from your vig shot N3, and we lynch him and he flips town, then you're the SK.  After tonight you're a confirmed IC is what I'm saying because joth's explanation that you might frame mail-mi would force you to lose.

[jotheonah]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

Yeah, but that's not really of my doing, is it?

It kind of is. You claimed after him. Also, if you frame the lynchproof guy, you make us waste two lynches. Pretty darn good for you.

Here's my thinking about your defense. I think you'd like to be the first SK to win a balanced game in F.DS mafia history. I think the chance to try that might have been worth the possible blemish on your record.

[Axxle]

Vote: Robz

Instigates a massclaim so he can use both his shots effectively.

Chooses a role that he doesn't need at all as town, he's usually got an authoritative enough voice to direct the lynch. It would have been a much more town move to take an investigative role.

This is a pretty blatant scumslip: "I was thinking this was going to pretty useless at this point against a 1-shot BP SK... but, well, I will obviously be killing mail-mi, and that's a good thing, I think."

In the above quote he knows mail-mi is town but is shooting him anyway.

--------------------------------------------

I think I'm just going to look at play from today on, since there just so much noise before today and SK should be completely shifting gears at this point. And I'm terrible about rereading.

[Axxle]

above was ninjaed by 7 posts

[scott_pilgrim]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

...And if mail-mi flips town, we know Robz is the SK.

That's not true at all. He might just be a lynchproof townie, like he claims. Him being town doesn't implicate me.

No I'm saying if he doesn't die from your vig shot N3, and we lynch him and he flips town, then you're the SK.  After tonight you're a confirmed IC is what I'm saying because joth's explanation that you might frame mail-mi would force you to lose.

But I guess there may be other explanations for him not dying like doc/jailkeeper or something, I didn't really think about it.  I guess we could just say no one protect mail-mi tonight.

[jotheonah]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

...And if mail-mi flips town, we know Robz is the SK.

That's not true at all. He might just be a lynchproof townie, like he claims. Him being town doesn't implicate me.

No I'm saying if he doesn't die from your vig shot N3, and we lynch him and he flips town, then you're the SK.  After tonight you're a confirmed IC is what I'm saying because joth's explanation that you might frame mail-mi would force you to lose.

But don't forget we have to lynch him twice in that scenario.  So there's 8 of us left.

Tonight, we lynch someone, neither Robz nor mail-mi. Robz shoots someone else.

Tomorrow, there's 6 of us left. We lynch mail-mi. He doesn't die because he's lynch-proof. RObz shoots someone else.

Next day, 5 of us left. We lynch mail-mi. Robz shoots someone else.

Next day, 3 of us left. I guess that's technically enough to lynch Robz, but boy is it cutting it close.

[jotheonah]

Oh wait, there's 9 of us left.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Can't catch up now, I will tonight.

[scott_pilgrim]

Well, that's everyone except Voltaire, who is confirmed town. We can talk about it now, yes?

Mail-mi, the problem with your claim is it puts us in a very tough spot. You must understand that you are in a group of 4 people or so that are more likely to be the SK. A lyncproof, 1-shot BP SK is basically so dangerous... it will take us forever to kill you! I think lynchproof is anti-town or you, even if you are town, because we can't even clear you by lynching you. We would have to lynch you twice.

But, thankfully, I can just shoot you at night. And if there's only one night death, that means my vig shot hit you, a BP SK, and you are the SK.

Unfortunately, if you're the SK, you're now in an awesome place to frame mail-mi.

...And if mail-mi flips town, we know Robz is the SK.

That's not true at all. He might just be a lynchproof townie, like he claims. Him being town doesn't implicate me.

No I'm saying if he doesn't die from your vig shot N3, and we lynch him and he flips town, then you're the SK.  After tonight you're a confirmed IC is what I'm saying because joth's explanation that you might frame mail-mi would force you to lose.

But don't forget we have to lynch him twice in that scenario.  So there's 8 of us left.

Tonight, we lynch someone, neither Robz nor mail-mi. Robz shoots someone else.

Tomorrow, there's 6 of us left. We lynch mail-mi. He doesn't die because he's lynch-proof. RObz shoots someone else.

Next day, 5 of us left. We lynch mail-mi. Robz shoots someone else.

Next day, 3 of us left. I guess that's technically enough to lynch Robz, but boy is it cutting it close.

Yeah, I mean cutting it close doesn't matter though, a win is a win and at that point we will know that Robz is the SK.

I take back what I said about Robz being an IC after tonight though because now I confused myself about it and I'm not sure whether that's the case.

[Axxle]

And as I've said before, and hopefully mcmc confirmed for you, if I was SK with guaranteed PR choice, I would take convert to townie or convert to Survivor. Probably convert to Survivor, claim immediately, sit back and collect an easy win.

I forgot about all this mess.

My question is whether you think that your absolute win ratio is more important, or your win ratio as each faction is more important.  Would rather have a higher win ratio across the board, or have one of the highest win ratios as SK in the forums? I think the latter is more likely.

[jotheonah]

If it's Robz, he can't win. Framing mail-mi doesn't buy him nearly enough days to not get caught, and as soon as mail-mi flips town he's hosed.

[Axxle]

If it's Robz, he can't win. Framing mail-mi doesn't buy him nearly enough days to not get caught, and as soon as mail-mi flips town he's hosed.

He's just going to shoot mail-mi, why bother framing him?

[jotheonah]

+ the dead

Robz888: Pick 1, Slot 1, N3 Vig.

sudgy: Pick 6, Slot 9, 1-shot Alignment Cop.

mcmcsalot: Pick 8, Slot 9, VT

scott_pilgrim: Pick 9, Slot 8, VT (tried for tracker)

AndrewisFTTW: Pick 10, Slot 7, VT (tried for neighborizer).

jotheonah: Pick 11, Slot 3, VT (tried for cop).

Axxle: Pick 13, Slot 6, 1-shot Bus Driver.

mail-mi: Pick 14, Slot 2, 1-shot Lynchproof.

Teproc: Pick ??, Slot 4, 1-shot watcher

XP: Pick ??, Slot ??, Goon

yuma: Pick ??, Slot ??, VT

ADK: Pick ??, Slot 8, Jailkeeper

theorel: Pick ??, Slot ??, VT

ashersky: Pick ??, Slot 3, mafia cop

Anybody else see what I see here?

[Axxle]

+ dead speculation

Robz888: Pick 1, Slot 1, N3 Vig.

ADK: Pick ??, Slot 8, Jailkeeper

ashersky: Pick ??, Slot 3, mafia cop

Teproc: Pick ??, Slot 4, 1-shot watcher

sudgy: Pick 6, Slot 9, 1-shot Alignment Cop.

theorel: Pick 7??, Slot ??, VT

mcmcsalot: Pick 8, Slot 9, VT

scott_pilgrim: Pick 9, Slot 8, VT (tried for tracker)

AndrewisFTTW: Pick 10, Slot 7, VT (tried for neighborizer).

jotheonah: Pick 11, Slot 3, VT (tried for cop).

yuma: Pick 12??, Slot ??, VT

Axxle: Pick 13, Slot 6, 1-shot Bus Driver.

mail-mi: Pick 14, Slot 2, 1-shot Lynchproof.

XP: Pick 15??, Slot 6??, Goon

[Axxle]

Anybody else see what I see here?

That the center bit are terrible at picking slots?

[jotheonah]

Anybody else see what I see here?

That the center bit are terrible at picking slots?

That unless Voltaire got slot 7, Andrew has some explaining to do.

[Robz888]

Anybody else see what I see here?

That the center bit are terrible at picking slots?

That unless Voltaire got slot 7, Andrew has some explaining to do.

Yes, I just saw that.

[Robz888]

Been working on an AWESOME spreadhseet.

[jotheonah]

And actually, even if Voltaire did take Slot 7, who else would try for it?

Neighborizer OR 1-shot Bulletproof OR Convert Serial Killer to Lover

[jotheonah]

Either way, I think we got our man.

[Robz888]

Seems likely.

Obviously, no one protect mail-mi or block me tonight. (Although it doesn't look like anyone has the ability to do that.)

[sudgy]

Vote: Andrew until further notice.  What's the vote count?

[Robz888]

Makes sense for Andrew's draft position, too. If he's 10th, he can't really afford to go for the better SK conversions, which are in more coveted slots. Slot 7 is fairly weak, though, and he has a reasonable chance of getting the lover conversion.

[Axxle]

Vote: Andrew

I invite people to reread robz too though.

[jotheonah]

Of course, SLot 8 is also a serial killer conversion slot, and that's the one scotty went for.

[Axxle]

unvote

what am i doing?

Vote: Robz

[Robz888]

Of course, SLot 8 is also a serial killer conversion slot, and that's the one scotty went for.

He didn't get it, though. If he's the SK, wouldn't he lie about going for a slot with a conversion PR?

[Robz888]

Oh, right, I guess it wasn't necessarily safe for him to do that.

[Robz888]

unvote

what am i doing?

Vote: Robz

I don't know what you're doing.

[Robz888]

I think even if you suspect me, it's insane to lynch me before I can shoot mail-mi. You need me to shoot mail-mi.

[jotheonah]

Axxle, there is zero reason to shoot Robz tonight. Plus I'd be very surprised if our SK wasn't Andrew or scotty at this point, probably Andrew.

[jotheonah]

and by shoot, I meant lynch. promise that's not a scumslip, I was thinking about his vig shot

[Axxle]

Perfect town win sounds like reason enough.

unvote

[mail-mi]

Well, I don't want to die, but I understand why Robz needs to kill me.

vote: Andrewis

[Robz888]

I feel like this massclaim was highly useful. Let's make sure we here from Voltaire before we lynch Andrew, though.

[jotheonah]

Perfect town win sounds like reason enough.

unvote

That is actually sort of an ok point. Has there ever been a perfect town win?

[Robz888]

Perfect town win sounds like reason enough.

unvote

That is actually sort of an ok point. Has there ever been a perfect town win?

Not in a setup of this size, but yes. We just had one, actually. Mafia XLI was a fawless town win. Also, there was one in the 20s where town had a flawless win against scum Robz, mail-mi and Winterspartan.

[Axxle]

Why Andrew over scott?

[jotheonah]

Well, obviously it depends on Voltaire's claim. But I've found Andrew's play overall scummier. He fits the SK profile a little better to me, seems to be playing carefully and close to the chest and I understand that's not his meta. I've detected some undue defensiveness on reread, here and there.

Plus he took slot 7, hoping for neighborizer? I guess it's a fun role, but idk. Over 1-shot BP? That seems unlikely. But of course, he couldn't claim 1-shot BP, now could he? It would be too easy to test if there were a vig.

[jotheonah]

Wait, that's dumb. He could have claimed to have gone for one-shot BP.

[jotheonah]

Ok, that's 3 votes on Andrew. Probably shouldn't put any more on until Volt checks in.

Unofficial Vote Count

jotheonah (1): AndrewisFTTW
AndrewisFTTW (3): jotheonah, sudgy, mail-mi
mcmcsalot (1): Robz888

Not Voting (4): scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, Voltaire, Axxle

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Day 3 ends on April 23 at noon.

[Robz888]

Wait, that's dumb. He could have claimed to have gone for one-shot BP.

Yeah. Hm.

[jotheonah]

Also, to complicate matters further, I ALSO went for a serial killer conversion slot.

[jotheonah]

To summarize, a list of claimed VTs. (or actually this massclaim was not as useful as it initially seemed)

jotheonah -- went for an SK conversion slot
AndrewisFTTW -- went for an SK conversion slot
scott_pilgrim -- went for an SK conversion slot
mcmcsalot -- went for Slot 9, which had the distant possibility of being an SK conversion slot, and is also, like, a pretty good fake claim since if a dead PR had gotten it we wouldn't know.

[Axxle]

To summarize, a list of claimed VTs. (or actually this massclaim was not as useful as it initially seemed)

jotheonah -- went for an SK conversion slot
AndrewisFTTW -- went for an SK conversion slot
scott_pilgrim -- went for an SK conversion slot
mcmcsalot -- went for Slot 9, which had the distant possibility of being an SK conversion slot, and is also, like, a pretty good fake claim since if a dead PR had gotten it we wouldn't know.

Add sudgy to that if you want a complete list.

[Axxle]

Errr... I definitely misread. nevermind me.

[Robz888]

To summarize, a list of claimed VTs. (or actually this massclaim was not as useful as it initially seemed)

jotheonah -- went for an SK conversion slot
AndrewisFTTW -- went for an SK conversion slot
scott_pilgrim -- went for an SK conversion slot
mcmcsalot -- went for Slot 9, which had the distant possibility of being an SK conversion slot, and is also, like, a pretty good fake claim since if a dead PR had gotten it we wouldn't know.

It's actually really good that sudgy ended up being the Slot 9 person, because I consider sudgy to be confirmed town. This means, for instance, that Axxle didn't pick Bus Driver out of Slot 9, and makes him likely town. So I think massclaim was worth it, anyway.

[jotheonah]

Also Robz, not sure you should shoot today.

If you don't shoot, we can lynch all 4 of the claimed VTs without losing. If you do shoot, and mail-mi isn't the SK, we can only lynch 3.

[jotheonah]

But of course, mail-mi could just as easily be SK as any of the VTs. Lynchproof is a pretty great thing to go for if he is.

[Robz888]

I hear you. The problem is, if I decide not to shoot mail-mi, and I am the nightkill, you basically lose the ability to kill mail-mi at all. If he's the SK, he wins!

On one hand, I do think mail-mi is much less likely to be the SK than most other suspects.

On the other hand, mail-mi is kind of a wacky player, and makes non-obvious (and even non-logical) choices. While I think almost any other person, as SK, would pursue conversion, mail-mi is like the one person who might decide not to do that. And lynchproof is like the one PR that really really helps an SK here.

[Robz888]

Also, we have to decide who/whether I am shooting TODAY before a lynch is reached. Because if I am the nightkill, and there is only one kill, you need to know who I shot before hand.

[Axxle]

@mail-mi: why unlynchable?

[Voltaire]

Here and catching up. Don't do anything crazy. I have something to claim!

[Voltaire]

I chose the number 8. I got the 5th draft slot. I chose Neighborizer, and got it. I wanted it for two reasons: 1. to keep it out of scum hands (nightmares from Robz using it in M30) 2. unlikely to really be chosen by anyone, and the setup seemed cool and I didn't want to be a VT.

On N1, I neighborized yuma (needed to fix his scumread on me, as the two of us once voted for each other in mylo for a town loss, he's a strong player, etc.). Obviously that did nothing. On N2, I targeted Robz (I had picked up on Slot 9 slips and thought him either a PR or scum. I was going to force him to claim to me privately under threat of IC-led lynch to try to sort it out). Nothing happened. As such, I can 99.9999% confirm Axxle's role and action on N2.

Now, can someone explain to me why Andrew looks fishy post-claim?

[Robz888]

Re: Andrew... sort of a rush to judgment.

Man, a Volt/yuma/me neighbor QT would have been the coolest thing ever. But I guess winning is cooler.

[Voltaire]

"Did the SK convert" is a useless area of speculation, in my opinion. Some players would have. Some players wouldn't have.

So if Robz shoots the SK, we've found the SK if there is only one death. That is the idea, right? So Robz announces his target. But if it is the SK, the SK will not shoot. Wait, then there are no deaths and everything looks weird and the SK is outed anyway, right? If Robz is the SK, he'll just shoot twice and get two free kills that that will be indistinguishable from a world where Robz is town who has announced intent to shoot town.

I really really really really really think Robz is the SK right now. I'm debating if we do need him to solve the unlynchable mail-mi issue, though.

Andrew also looks bad. mail-mi looks bad based on his role, but there's also a town narrative and he hasn't been playing like the SK.

Mod: if the 1-shot lynchproof player is lynched, does the game move immediately to night?

[Voltaire]

Man, a Volt/yuma/me neighbor QT would have been the coolest thing ever. But I guess winning is cooler.

It would have been. Unfortunately, it will need to wait for a different game, as my QTs could only ever be two people.

[Voltaire]

So I think Robz announces his target is the right way to go, right? I'm going to re-read the last few pages, I was fast-skimming and getting nervous Andrew had already been lynched or something.

[Voltaire]

Also, it just occurred to me that I almost certainly should have lied about being 1-shot BP to psyche out the SK from killing the IC. I MAY HAVE FOUND AN OPPORTUNITY TO LIE AS TOWN AND BLOWN IT

[Robz888]

I really really really really really think Robz is the SK right now. I'm debating if we do need him to solve the unlynchable mail-mi issue, though.

What??? No, this is crazy talk! In what world do I, as SK, take Night 3 Vig over Survivor? Survivor is basically an automatic win! I was guaranteed to get it!

[Voltaire]

Robz, why did you want Axxle to claim before you?

[Voltaire]

I really really really really really think Robz is the SK right now. I'm debating if we do need him to solve the unlynchable mail-mi issue, though.

What??? No, this is crazy talk! In what world do I, as SK, take Night 3 Vig over Survivor? Survivor is basically an automatic win! I was guaranteed to get it!

The one where you want an extra free kill.

"I would have done that as [different alignment]" is an argument that never has, and never will, hold water with me.

[Robz888]

Robz, why did you want Axxle to claim before you?

Because I know I am town and I don't know he is town. Him claiming first gave him fewer options to lie.

As it turned out, I don't really think he is the SK.

[Voltaire]

I really really really really really think Robz is the SK right now. I'm debating if we do need him to solve the unlynchable mail-mi issue, though.

What??? No, this is crazy talk! In what world do I, as SK, take Night 3 Vig over Survivor? Survivor is basically an automatic win! I was guaranteed to get it!

Don't worry, I may not want to lynch you until tomorrow, after you've shot mail-mi and killed me. I'd just have to trust town to follow through.

[Robz888]

I really really really really really think Robz is the SK right now. I'm debating if we do need him to solve the unlynchable mail-mi issue, though.

What??? No, this is crazy talk! In what world do I, as SK, take Night 3 Vig over Survivor? Survivor is basically an automatic win! I was guaranteed to get it!

The one where you want an extra free kill.

"I would have done that as [different alignment]" is an argument that never has, and never will, hold water with me.

But, it really should hold water here! I would NEVER trade a near automatic win for a high possibility of a loss, as ANY alignment. I just want to win!

[Robz888]

But lynching me tomorrow is just as stupid.

[Robz888]

Not just as stupid, I take that back. Lynching me today is of course much more stupid...

[Voltaire]

Robz, why did you want Axxle to claim before you?

Because I know I am town and I don't know he is town. Him claiming first gave him fewer options to lie.

Everyone (except for me) should think that about everyone. Explain how this is different from you wanting the maximum amount of room to fakeclaim yourself.

[Robz888]

Well, whatever, but I think you and Axxle are letting an extremely, extremely unlikely fear, that goes against everything you know about me, to rule you.

[Robz888]

Robz, why did you want Axxle to claim before you?

Because I know I am town and I don't know he is town. Him claiming first gave him fewer options to lie.

Everyone (except for me) should think that about everyone. Explain how this is different from you wanting the maximum amount of room to fakeclaim yourself.

It's not, but I know I'm not fake claiming, so I don't care.

[Robz888]

And honestly I thought my draft position acquitted me 99%.

[Axxle]

And honestly I thought my draft position acquitted me 99%.

You think you're an IC every game.

[Voltaire]

So obviously Robz is showing absurdly strong survivalist tendencies here. Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

My case against Robz, were I to make one, would be:




Since we have massclaimed, and assuming Robz shoots mail-mi tonight, and assuming the SK didn't execute a clever lie about their role that would somehow affect this (I don't see how it would be possible), we can afford 3 mislynches.

[Robz888]

And honestly I thought my draft position acquitted me 99%.

You think you're an IC every game.

I have joked about it in many recent games (all of them I was town), and yes, I believe I should get about the same IC status as sudgy here. Why aren't we all concerned about SK sudgy picking 1-shot Alignment Cop for all the WIFOM and towncred? Oh, so sneaky, master SK sudgy, must be playing us... NO. That's ridiculous. Choose the obvious explanation. He's town. So am I.

[Robz888]

My case against Robz, were I to make one, would be:

Well I can't argue with that.

[Robz888]

I mean, do you WANT me to shoot mail-mi? I am a bit on the fence myself. This is basically the last opportunity to kill him, though.

[Axxle]

And honestly I thought my draft position acquitted me 99%.

You think you're an IC every game.

I have joked about it in many recent games (all of them I was town), and yes, I believe I should get about the same IC status as sudgy here. Why aren't we all concerned about SK sudgy picking 1-shot Alignment Cop for all the WIFOM and towncred? Oh, so sneaky, master SK sudgy, must be playing us... NO. That's ridiculous. Choose the obvious explanation. He's town. So am I.

You're going to compare yourself to sudgy. Right, because you both have the same experience and playstyle. right.

[Robz888]

And honestly I thought my draft position acquitted me 99%.

You think you're an IC every game.

I have joked about it in many recent games (all of them I was town), and yes, I believe I should get about the same IC status as sudgy here. Why aren't we all concerned about SK sudgy picking 1-shot Alignment Cop for all the WIFOM and towncred? Oh, so sneaky, master SK sudgy, must be playing us... NO. That's ridiculous. Choose the obvious explanation. He's town. So am I.

You're going to compare yourself to sudgy. Right, because you both have the same experience and playstyle. right.

Your right, my playstyle does more strongly favor winning at whatever cost than sudgy's. Guess it's time to start panicking about him being SK...

[Robz888]

Look, I understand that RIGHT NOW, I am in a great position to win as SK.

But there is absolutely no way I could have predicted that conditions wound end up favorable enough for me to win as SK when I had to pick my PR during Night 0.

[Axxle]

Maybe.

Well I'm not really interested in lynching you today anymore anyway. I'll figure that out tomorrow if I'm alive.

[Robz888]

In case somehow someone gets lynched while I am gone, currently me default selection is that I am shooting mail-mi.

[Voltaire]

My case against Robz, were I to make one, would be:

Well I can't argue with that.

Yeah, I got distracted in real life, wanted to make the other points, and forgot I'd left that in unfinished.

[Voltaire]

I mean, do you WANT me to shoot mail-mi? I am a bit on the fence myself. This is basically the last opportunity to kill him, though.

Pretty sure I do.

[Voltaire]

vote: Andrew 3 or 4 votes on him, I think. Which means he might be at L-1, so I'd like a vote-count, please, and no more votes until we know for sure.

[mail-mi]

@mail-mi: why unlynchable?

because i get lynched a lot. And i was in draft position 14, so i took one from the category that seemed least likely that one had been taken from. And i don't ever get shot (1-shot commuter) and the only people that target me at night are town (1-shot PGO) so lynchproof it was.

[Axxle]

vote: Andrew 3 or 4 votes on him, I think. Which means he might be at L-1, so I'd like a vote-count, please, and no more votes until we know for sure.

There was an unofficial vote count, that'd be L-1 if it was accurate.

[Axxle]

@mail-mi: why unlynchable?

because i get lynched a lot. And i was in draft position 14, so i took one from the category that seemed least likely that one had been taken from. And i don't ever get shot (1-shot commuter) and the only people that target me at night are town (1-shot PGO) so lynchproof it was.

If you get lynched one day, why do you think you'd not just get immediately lynched the next day? You're giving scum more time to kill people.

[mail-mi]

about robz: yeah he's probably town. knowing robz, he would have gone for the sk conversion.

[Voltaire]

Axxle, is it a thing for you to be self-aware scummy?

Robz is doing it and I think it contributes to him being scummy, you are doing it and I am ignoring it.

Everyone else comment on this if they have an opinion.

Also town don't lurk. So many of you are lurking.

[mail-mi]

@mail-mi: why unlynchable?

because i get lynched a lot. And i was in draft position 14, so i took one from the category that seemed least likely that one had been taken from. And i don't ever get shot (1-shot commuter) and the only people that target me at night are town (1-shot PGO) so lynchproof it was.

If you get lynched one day, why do you think you'd not just get immediately lynched the next day? You're giving scum more time to kill people.

well see my thought process was: Crap I'm 14. What slot is least likely to get picked? Maybe slot two? well the only one that's really useful to me there is lynchproof, so might as well try right? Porbably won't get it anyway. *receives role PM* OMGOSH I ACTUALLY GOT IT EVEN THOUGH I WAS NUMBER 14 YAY IM A PR!

[Robz888]

SK is probably doomed, so SK is probably lurking.

Mcmc and Scotty often lurk anyway, though. But I think mcmc is more active when he has something to do, and he has lurked the whole game.

I'd say Andrew is a good choice, maybe scotty, maybe Joth. Mcmc and mail-mi a little less likely than those first three. Axxle is likely town, sudgy is certainly tow, Voltaire is absolutely town. Did I miss anyone?

[Voltaire]

Town, please seriously consider, and quite possibly, lynch Robz tomorrow. Please.*

*I am 99% likely to die tonight

[Axxle]

Axxle, is it a thing for you to be self-aware scummy?

Robz is doing it and I think it contributes to him being scummy, you are doing it and I am ignoring it.

Everyone else comment on this if they have an opinion.

Also town don't lurk. So many of you are lurking.

Lampshading your scumminess is a thing that people do. I think Robz had a few early scum games that he did it a lot but I haven't played with him scum in a while. I imagine I do it sometimes, it all depends on the type of town.

Everyone should comment regardless of if they have an opinion or not. It helps even if you don't think it will.

Town totally lurks. It's anti-town but town does it.

[Axxle]

Town, please seriously consider, and quite possibly, lynch Robz tomorrow. Please.*

*I am 99% likely to die tonight

You like that percentage.

[Voltaire]

I mean, none of these situations are actually 100%, so I like to be accurate. 99% of the time.*

*like the time I realized I should have lied about being 1-shot BP

[Robz888]

Town, please seriously consider, and quite possibly, lynch Robz tomorrow. Please.*

*I am 99% likely to die tonight

Town, ignore this, the way dead townies are typically ignored.

[Axxle]

I mean, none of these situations are actually 100%, so I like to be accurate. 99% of the time.*

*like the time I realized I should have lied about being 1-shot BP

I think just the fact that you picked that slot should have the SK sweating a bit.

[Voltaire]

Town, please seriously consider, and quite possibly, lynch Robz tomorrow. Please.*

*I am 99% likely to die tonight

Town, ignore this, the way dead townies are typically ignored.

Robz, you need to demonstrate to me that you are town. You are demonstrating to me that you are the SK. Do you see the problem?

[Voltaire]

Town, please seriously consider, and quite possibly, lynch Robz tomorrow. Please.*

*I am 99% likely to die tonight

Town, ignore this, the way dead townies are typically ignored.

#discredittheIC

[scott_pilgrim]

So it's possible Robz as SK went for slot 3 or slot 8 for conversion, but was beaten to it by ash/ADK.  Okay then what does he claim in that situation?  He's in a really bad position, 1 SK vs. 8 town.  So he goes for something bold and claims first drafting order, hoping for no counterclaim by town (and he thinks he has a good chance at no counterclaim, because ash and ADK both got really good slots, so there's a decent chance one of them got first pick).  Then it comes time for massclaim, he wants Axxle to go first to get as much information as possible before he has to claim, but we insist he go before Axxle.  He figures slot 1 is a lot better for scum than for town, we know none of the mafia took it and he hopes the last few townies didn't take it either, and claims vig.

I think that's the SK narrative for Robz.  It's a crazy bold play and he's lucky he didn't get any counterclaims if that's actually what he did.  So just by probability it seems unlikely that Robz is the SK.  However, everything that he has done today is exactly what he would have done as vanilla SK, so it's just really tempting to take from that that he is the SK.

Though now I'm realizing that whole scenario I outlined assumes he's not actually the vig, which means there would only be one death tonight (mail-mi), and he has to hope that we take from that that the SK didn't kill.  So if we only see one death tonight, it's still possible that that narrative is correct, but not guaranteed since the actual SK may choose to not shoot to make us think Robz is the SK.  Whereas if we see two deaths tonight, the narrative must be incorrect and we have to either assume that Robz is town, or that he is actually an SK who had first pick and did not go for a conversion.  I guess it's also possible he lied about the first pick but not about slot 1.


Regardless, we're not lynching Robz today, so who are the other options, Andrew, me, joth, mcmc, maybe Axxle?  Andrew's play this game has felt a little different to me than in other games.  Nothing really sticks out to me about joth or mcmc (which is odd because I usually think mcmc is scummy and then I'm wrong, so maybe worth noting).

[Robz888]

Town, please seriously consider, and quite possibly, lynch Robz tomorrow. Please.*

*I am 99% likely to die tonight

Town, ignore this, the way dead townies are typically ignored.

Robz, you need to demonstrate to me that you are town. You are demonstrating to me that you are the SK. Do you see the problem?

I don't agree that I am demonstrating that I am the SK. How have I demonstrated that?

[Robz888]

So it's possible Robz as SK went for slot 3 or slot 8 for conversion, but was beaten to it by ash/ADK.

No, it's not.

I claimed my number and draft order BEFORE the massclaim, when it could have produced a contradictory claim. It didn't, because it's true, I got first draft pick. So any analysis that begins... "Maybe Robz was beaten to X..." is wrong, because it is impossible for me to hae been beaten to X.

I am pointing out all the logical fallacies involved in all the arguments that I am the SK. How does this make me likely--at all--to be the SK?

[scott_pilgrim]

What?  I'm assuming you lied about draft order if you're the SK...obviously it's a risk, but if you're the SK you're in a really bad position and it's probably a risk you need to take.

[Robz888]

Robz, you need to demonstrate to me that you are town. You are demonstrating to me that you are the SK. Do you see the problem?

This may be coming down to a clash of styles. How do I give you some made up spin about how my actions have been pro-townie rather than SK? I mean there's a fair degree of overlap between the two, anyway. But I just... I can't... there's no really great narrative for why I am town that holds a candle to the actual evidence: my draft order, claim, and lack of conversion.

[Voltaire]

There were many unclaimed dead players. Your move would be risky, but if successful, put you in a good position.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sorry guys I still don't have time to catch up yet but I will in a couple hours. I did see that I'm the favorite to get lynched today. I can't really argue anything besides I don't think my play has been weird at all (I saw that Scotty mentioned something about that) besides my reacting to Voltaire's comment, but I only reacted that way because I thought he made another comment beforehand but it was actually Axxle.

That said, I'm not the SK but again, there's not much I can argue against. I'll be back in a couple hours.

[Robz888]

There were many unclaimed dead players. Your move would be risky, but if successful, put you in a good position.

I mean, it wouldn't even put me in a good position, because I would fail to produce the guaranteed shot tonight. If there is no extra shot tonight, i've found the SK< and you can lynch that person and me in either order and win 100%.

[scott_pilgrim]

What?  I'm assuming you lied about draft order if you're the SK...obviously it's a risk, but if you're the SK you're in a really bad position and it's probably a risk you need to take.

I mean it's a difference between the probability of winning as 1 SK vs. 8 town (including two IC's), versus the probability of getting the first order not counterclaimed.  I don't know which has better odds, but I'm saying you might have judged it to be the latter.

[Robz888]

Should be no > in that last post

[Voltaire]

Robz, you need to demonstrate to me that you are town. You are demonstrating to me that you are the SK. Do you see the problem?

This may be coming down to a clash of styles. How do I give you some made up spin about how my actions have been pro-townie rather than SK? I mean there's a fair degree of overlap between the two, anyway. But I just... I can't... there's no really great narrative for why I am town that holds a candle to the actual evidence: my draft order, claim, and lack of conversion.

See, that is the least convincing part of your story. You played D1, you were hyper and excited, not like town!Robz at all, you were lampshading your own scuminess, you basically weren't behaving like I'm used to town!Robz behaving at all.

I mean, see how WW proved to me he was town in NM4 (or was it 5?) just by talking and whatever.

I should also re-read you and see if you not being Slot 9 fits with me thinking you made slips only slot 9 would make, and if that makes any sense.

[Voltaire]

And by "least convincing" I mean it is bad/a point of weakness to point to something that has a crazy number of possible non-town explanations as the BIG REASON why you are town.

[Axxle]

Should be no > in that last post

Was the < intentional?

[Robz888]

Robz, you need to demonstrate to me that you are town. You are demonstrating to me that you are the SK. Do you see the problem?

This may be coming down to a clash of styles. How do I give you some made up spin about how my actions have been pro-townie rather than SK? I mean there's a fair degree of overlap between the two, anyway. But I just... I can't... there's no really great narrative for why I am town that holds a candle to the actual evidence: my draft order, claim, and lack of conversion.

See, that is the least convincing part of your story. You played D1, you were hyper and excited, not like town!Robz at all, you were lampshading your own scuminess, you basically weren't behaving like I'm used to town!Robz behaving at all.

Okay, this is a clash of styles between you and I, then. How close a player hued to his meta on Day 1 is "whatever" to me, by the time we get to Day 3.

[Axxle]

So it's possible Robz as SK went for slot 3 or slot 8 for conversion, but was beaten to it by ash/ADK.  Okay then what does he claim in that situation?  He's in a really bad position, 1 SK vs. 8 town.  So he goes for something bold and claims first drafting order, hoping for no counterclaim by town (and he thinks he has a good chance at no counterclaim, because ash and ADK both got really good slots, so there's a decent chance one of them got first pick).  Then it comes time for massclaim, he wants Axxle to go first to get as much information as possible before he has to claim, but we insist he go before Axxle.  He figures slot 1 is a lot better for scum than for town, we know none of the mafia took it and he hopes the last few townies didn't take it either, and claims vig.

I think that's the SK narrative for Robz.  It's a crazy bold play and he's lucky he didn't get any counterclaims if that's actually what he did.  So just by probability it seems unlikely that Robz is the SK.  However, everything that he has done today is exactly what he would have done as vanilla SK, so it's just really tempting to take from that that he is the SK.

Though now I'm realizing that whole scenario I outlined assumes he's not actually the vig, which means there would only be one death tonight (mail-mi), and he has to hope that we take from that that the SK didn't kill.  So if we only see one death tonight, it's still possible that that narrative is correct, but not guaranteed since the actual SK may choose to not shoot to make us think Robz is the SK.  Whereas if we see two deaths tonight, the narrative must be incorrect and we have to either assume that Robz is town, or that he is actually an SK who had first pick and did not go for a conversion.  I guess it's also possible he lied about the first pick but not about slot 1.


Regardless, we're not lynching Robz today, so who are the other options, Andrew, me, joth, mcmc, maybe Axxle?  Andrew's play this game has felt a little different to me than in other games.  Nothing really sticks out to me about joth or mcmc (which is odd because I usually think mcmc is scummy and then I'm wrong, so maybe worth noting).

Vote: Scott

I prefer him to Andrew today. I mean Robz is scummy but this is just all wrong.

[Voltaire]

I mean, I feel really bad about Axxle too, is that just his playstyle though. Robz why is he town again?

Also, this math is correct, no?

D3 - 9 alive, 1 lynch
N3 - 8 alive, Robz kills mail-mi and SK kills
D4 - 6 alive, 1 lynch
N4 - 5 alive, SK kills 1
D5 - 4 alive, no lynch
N5 - 4 alive, SK kills 1
D6 - 3 alive

So only two mislynches left, right?

[Voltaire]

Axxle, what? I completely followed what Scott was saying.

[Robz888]

Scotty's arugment--that I don't actually have Vig powers and first draft pic--is actually a much better explanation than Voltaire's. It doesn't matter, though, since if there is only one kill tonight, I can prove with total certainty the identity of the SK, and you can even lynch me first if you like.

[Axxle]

I think it's ridiculous to think that Robz would lie about his draft position, and more importantly draft number, and then lie about being a vig. Too many risks.

[Voltaire]

I think it's ridiculous to think that Robz would lie about his draft position, and more importantly draft number, and then lie about being a vig. Too many risks.

And why does that make S_P scum?

[Axxle]

Scotty's arugment--that I don't actually have Vig powers and first draft pic--is actually a much better explanation than Voltaire's. It doesn't matter, though, since if there is only one kill tonight, I can prove with total certainty the identity of the SK, and you can even lynch me first if you like.

Not really? I mean we'd all just go occam's razor on you tomorrow if there's just one kill.

[Axxle]

I think it's ridiculous to think that Robz would lie about his draft position, and more importantly draft number, and then lie about being a vig. Too many risks.

And why does that make S_P scum?

I've felt he's been kinda scum all game. And in this case it feels like he's trying to hard to come up with an alternate theory why robz is scum so he doesn't seem sheepy.

[Voltaire]

Well, 2 mislynches left, 3 chances to win that is.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think it's ridiculous to think that Robz would lie about his draft position, and more importantly draft number, and then lie about being a vig. Too many risks.

I think that's how he has to play if he's in that position.  You think it's more likely Robz is psychic and knows he's going to end up in this position, so he avoids a conversion role so he can WIFOM us all?

[Robz888]

I mean, I feel really bad about Axxle too, is that just his playstyle though. Robz why is he town again?

Voltaire, please listen to me carefully here, I think it well help put my position and my scum-hunting technique in perspective.

Axxle is town because we know for a fact he is the 1-shot Bus Driver, and that he did not get it out of Slot 9 (because sudgy is slot 9). This means he sought the 1-shot Bus Driver from Slot 6.

Is this something the SK does? I say no, absolutely not. That's not really a power that helps the SK. And remember: He used it last night! Doesn't SK Axxle have to hold onto that for a night where he might be in danger? There was no evidence he was in danger last night. In fact, he claimed, putting himself at greater risk.

I think SK Axxle, despite is bad draft position, would have sought some conversion PR, or maybe tried to bank on something good in Slot 9. I was much more concerned Axxle was SK before we learned there was no way for him to be Slot 9.

So even though he is a little scummy in like his statements, whatever, it's dwarfed by all the evidence.

[Axxle]

Well, 2 mislynches left, 3 chances to win that is.

4 chances counting mailmi

[Robz888]

Scotty's arugment--that I don't actually have Vig powers and first draft pic--is actually a much better explanation than Voltaire's. It doesn't matter, though, since if there is only one kill tonight, I can prove with total certainty the identity of the SK, and you can even lynch me first if you like.

Not really? I mean we'd all just go occam's razor on you tomorrow if there's just one kill.

I don't understand what you're saying. If there is one kill tomorrow, either I am lying, or I hit the BP SK.

[Axxle]

Scotty's arugment--that I don't actually have Vig powers and first draft pic--is actually a much better explanation than Voltaire's. It doesn't matter, though, since if there is only one kill tonight, I can prove with total certainty the identity of the SK, and you can even lynch me first if you like.

Not really? I mean we'd all just go occam's razor on you tomorrow if there's just one kill.

I don't understand what you're saying. If there is one kill tomorrow, either I am lying, or I hit the BP SK.

As SK:

If the person you say you're going to target dies tomorrow, and only that person. We're going to assume you're lying and lynch you. You lose.

If the person you say you're going to target *doesn't* die tomorrow, we lynch them. Maybe have to lynch them a second time. But when they flip town, we know you're lying so we lynch you. You lose.

There is no way for you to win if you're faking being a Vig.

[Robz888]

Oh, right. Yeah, exactly. I agree with that.

[Voltaire]

Robz, I think that does make sense about Axxle.

[Voltaire]

Well, 2 mislynches left, 3 chances to win that is.

4 chances counting mailmi

Point. And only 8 candidates, not counting me of course. And there are some players that are markedly less likely (you if Robz's reasoning is right), maybe sudgy? So 4 chances for 6 people, with reads to improve? OK good good good.

Honestly I've gotten kind of detached from this game because I likely won't be in it and then it will essentially be a whole 'nother game I'll be spectating.

[Voltaire]

Scotty's arugment--that I don't actually have Vig powers and first draft pic--is actually a much better explanation than Voltaire's. It doesn't matter, though, since if there is only one kill tonight, I can prove with total certainty the identity of the SK, and you can even lynch me first if you like.

Not really? I mean we'd all just go occam's razor on you tomorrow if there's just one kill.

I don't understand what you're saying. If there is one kill tomorrow, either I am lying, or I hit the BP SK.

As SK:

If the person you say you're going to target dies tomorrow, and only that person. We're going to assume you're lying and lynch you. You lose.

If the person you say you're going to target *doesn't* die tomorrow, we lynch them. Maybe have to lynch them a second time. But when they flip town, we know you're lying so we lynch you. You lose.

There is no way for you to win if you're faking being a Vig.

So Robz is the Vig. I still think he could be SK though. I do want to think about his choice from a "but how did the game go down vs. how the SK wanted it to go down" POV.

[Axxle]

With 4, my initial reaction is:

mail-mi

robz

scott

mcmc? joth? ouf. lylo is going to hurt if it gets down to it.

[Axxle]

oh yeah, Andrew.

Robz. Please walk me through it. Why did you pick vig of all things as town? We could have used that tracker, roleblocker, jailkeeper, something that could have helped us find scum.

[jotheonah]

Actually seems like we did alright in terms of finding scum.

[mail-mi]

With 4, my initial reaction is:

mail-mi

robz

scott

mcmc? joth? ouf. lylo is going to hurt if it gets down to it.

I think we should all do something like this.

My personal 4: Andrewis, scotty, Axxle, then mcmc.

[Axxle]

Actually seems like we did alright in terms of finding scum.

We found one scum.

One was bussed the shit out of.

The other accidentally died.

That wasn't town work.

Do you know how screwed we'd be if ash hadn't died? It's so very likely he'd have coasted to victory.

[Voltaire]

The SK would have killed him.

But I agree with your larger point.

[Robz888]

Robz. Please walk me through it. Why did you pick vig of all things as town? We could have used that tracker, roleblocker, jailkeeper, something that could have helped us find scum.

Well, it was the slot, really. In a vacuum, vig would not be my first choice. But I really thought scum would go after Slot 1. It has two really strong scum powers. So I thought I could maybe cause a scum to be a vanilla goon by making that move. Within that slot, it was only Vengeful or Night 3 Vig, and Night 3 Vig seemed a bit better (for town), since earlier than Night 3 I probably wouldn't even want to use the shot if I died, and Night 3 I would rather have the freedom to use my shot regardless of if I died, and beyond Night 3, well there's a low enough chance I'm even still alive that it's whatever.

Jailkeeper and Roleblocker are great roles, no doubt. I've never used them very well, though (I've been both). Also, I tended to think the people I would block from those roles would be town, because town would pursue those slots.

Doctors and cops are very useful, but I'd rather have other townies get those powers and use them on me.

As it happened, two out of three mafia got PRs anyway, and one of them got the Jailkeeper (terrifying!), so I don't know if my plan really worked out. Our lynches were good enough [read: lucky enough] that it didn't matter.

[Robz888]

I did take Jailkeeper initially, and then send a subsequent PM changing my mind to Night 3 Vig, if that comforts you.

[jotheonah]

I'm thinking Andrew, Robz, scotty, mcmc if we get 4.

The problem scenario for me, as I have articulated, is the one where mail-mi is town and Robz is SK.

9 of us
We lynch Andrew = 8
One non-mail-mi NK = 7
We lynch mail-mi (he doesn't die) = 7
One NK =6
We lynch mail-mi =5
One NK = 4
No lynch
One NK = 3
Lylo

In that scenario we only get three chances, not 4, because we blow one on mail-mi.
At that point we absolutely lynch Robz at LyLo though, so it should be OK.

Anyway, if one person dies tonight and it isn't mail-mi, we actually have exactly two possibilities, so we're ok. It might actually make sense to lynch Robz first so we at least know where we stand.

If two people die tonight and one of them's mail-mi then we know RObz is the vig, but not that he's not the SK. And we don't have to worry about a lynchproof dude.

If mail-mi and only mail-mi dies then I'm confused.

If no one dies tonight that's very confusing.

[jotheonah]

Actually seems like we did alright in terms of finding scum.

We found one scum.

One was bussed the shit out of.

The other accidentally died.

That wasn't town work.

Do you know how screwed we'd be if ash hadn't died? It's so very likely he'd have coasted to victory.

I always come around to suspecting Ash eventually.

[Voltaire]

But joth, doesn't Robz shoot mail-mi in the scenario you lay out, even if he's the SK and does two kills?

[Robz888]

If mail-mi and only mail-mi dies then I'm confused.

It would mean the SK decided not to shoot, although that would be stupid--or shot Voltaire, who actually IS 1-shot BP, wouldn't that be sweet?

If no one dies tonight that's very confusing.

If no one dies, see above, but also, mail-mi is the SK.

[jotheonah]

I can't count the number of times I've been convinced Robz was scum based on gut read, tells, and/or meta when the evidence was against it. But I do know that when that happens I'm generally wrong.

But joth, doesn't Robz shoot mail-mi in the scenario you lay out, even if he's the SK and does two kills?

I guess? But I don't know. Not shooting mail-mi gets us to waste a lynch, which gets him a ticket straight to lylo with the companions more or less of his choosing. As long as he thinks there's one person in this town he can convince to kill one other person in this town over him, framing mail-mi is a good plan for him.

[Robz888]

If mail-mi doesn't die, you can even lynch me first.

I'm sort of confident mail-mi isn't the SK, but not enough to spare him, given his lynchproof status. (This is a great example, mail-mi, of how the PR you chose is actually anti-town and working against you.)

I can't count the number of times I've been convinced Robz was scum based on gut read, tells, and/or meta when the evidence was against it. But I do know that when that happens I'm generally wrong.

Well, frankly, it's because when I'm actually scum, I tend not to get caught based on gut reads, tells, and/or meta. I'm pretty good at this.*

*A notable exception is Voltaire, who actually has caught me in this manner, at least twice.

[jotheonah]

the andrew insanity. ok, I jumped to a conclusion. that's very me. then I took a step back and realized I was indicting him for a thing that I myself and scotty were both guilty of.

But why didn't anybody else catch that? Robz was egging me onto a pretty contentless wagon.

[Robz888]

I also jumped to a conclusion.

[sudgy]

I think we should lynch non-robz-or-mail-mi, robz kills mail-mi, we figure things out tomorrow between robz and mail-mi, then we try to figure out who the SK is if all else fails.

[Voltaire]

I think we should lynch non-robz-or-mail-mi, robz kills mail-mi, we figure things out tomorrow between robz and mail-mi, then we try to figure out who the SK is if all else fails.

Have you been reading the thread? Andrew is at L-1, we're more-or-less doing exactly that. Though I am open to non-Andrew lynches. Like Robz. But not today.

[Robz888]

Yeah. I think we're pretty much all on board for that. Well, a majority at least.

So, Andrew? It's not that he's playing super differently than usual, it's just that, well, all the other suspects are playing exactly like usual.

My order, once again: Andrew, Joth, Scotty... mcmc, mail-mi... Axxle, sudgy, Voltaire.

[Robz888]

I'm not voting. Do you want me to hammer, or should we keep talking?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Hi. I'm all caught up. Shoot mai-mi and don't lynch me. But if you do lynch robz tomorrow and cross your fingers.

[Axxle]

Hi. I'm all caught up. Shoot mai-mi and don't lynch me. But if you do lynch robz tomorrow and cross your fingers.

Who should we lynch today?

[Robz888]

I can't believe people actually think I'm the Serial Killer. It just doesn't make sense.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Hi. I'm all caught up. Shoot mai-mi and don't lynch me. But if you do lynch robz tomorrow and cross your fingers.

Who should we lynch today?

Joth because I said so earlier. Sorry I'm totally not helpful but at this point I have no SK reads and it looks like I'm not alone.

[Voltaire]

unvote

Lynch whoever whenever you want. I'm going to be gone for another 12-15 hours and I think wagons will be more informative without the IC vote maybe? I mean I'll hammer or something if I show up and it's needed.

[Robz888]

Vote: Andrew

Or we could find out right now if we win!

[Axxle]

Intent to hammer

I'd like to hear mcmc's thoughts before the hammer though.

[faust]

Mod: if the 1-shot lynchproof player is lynched, does the game move immediately to night?

Yes.

[faust]

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Vote Count 3.3

jotheonah (1): AndrewisFTTW
AndrewisFTTW (4): jotheonah, sudgy, mail-mi, Robz888 (L-1)
scott_pilgrim (1): Axxle

Not Voting (3): scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Day 3 ends on April 23 at noon.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well you guys have your mind made up a guess. Good luck finding the SK.

[jotheonah]

this does not seem like the SK at L1 talking!

[mcmcsalot]

My thoughts are lynchandrew, I actually do think he sounds like an sk talking, arguing his way out of it and subsequent lynches is impossible he has to have a low key opinion this making us decide not to lynch him of our own accord.

Robz made such a terrible wierd play with his first draft pick by picking a crappy power he seems scummy(I'll elaborate sometime)

And Joth seems like he could be sk to me.

[jotheonah]

My thoughts are lynchandrew, I actually do think he sounds like an sk talking, arguing his way out of it and subsequent lynches is impossible he has to have a low key opinion this making us decide not to lynch him of our own accord.

Robz made such a terrible wierd play with his first draft pick by picking a crappy power he seems scummy(I'll elaborate sometime)

And Joth seems like he could be sk to me.

Of course I could be the SK, sure. Any reason why I am likely to be?

[Axxle]

vote: Andrew

Joth shot up a few spots on my to lynch list too.

[AndrewisFTTW]

On the contrary, if I was the SK I think I'd be putting up a fight. It's too late anyway, good luck guys!

[jotheonah]

it would be helpful if someone could tell me why I'm suddenly scummy. surely if I'm SK trying to talk you out of hammering Andrew is NOT in my best interests.

[Axxle]

it would be helpful if someone could tell me why I'm suddenly scummy. surely if I'm SK trying to talk you out of hammering Andrew is NOT in my best interests.

the combination of that plus not unvoting raises all kinds of red flags

[faust]

THREAD LOCKED!

[faust]

"Idealism has prevailed", exclaimed Kant. "We defeated the threat and showed that our concepts are superior."

"Mind you, there's still a killer out there", remarked Plato. "We shall not be safe until we find this unvirtuous individual."

"Everyone listen to me!",announced Voltaire. "It should be obvious to everyone that I'm on your side. So listen carefully. We need to figure out what happened the night of John Rawls' death, and hopefully we are able to catch someone in a lie."

Soon everyone consented to Voltaire's plan. "Kant is the liar!", suggested Kierkegaard, after everyone told his story.

"He might not be", said Voltaire. "But I want him dead anyway." Five of them took him and carried him outside.

"Didn't you always go around telling everyone how much the starry sky above you awes you? We'll make sure it'll be the last thing you see in this life", said Žižek softly, as he slit Kant's throat.

AndrewisFTTW has been lynched! He was Immanuel Kant, the Vanilla Townie.

Night 3 has begun! Night actions are due within 24 hours. All players need to check in with the mods during the night, even if they do not have a Night action. Day 4 will start in 24 hours.

[faust]

That night, someone entered the chamber of Zeno of Citium. „You understand that you have to die now?“, asked the intruder. „I do“, answered Zeno. „I only advise you to be quick about it.“ When the attacker stabbed Zeno in the heart, he didn't as much as blink.

The other victim of the night was Voltaire. The others found him pinned to the wall with nails. His chest lay bare and was slit open, and the cuts formed letters: CANDIDE'S REVENGE.

mail-mi has been killed in the night. He was Zeno of Citium, the 1-shot Lynchproof Townie.

Voltaire has been killed in the night. He was Voltaire, the Town-aligned Neighborizer.

Day 4 has started!

Vote Count 4.0

Not Voting (6): Robz888, jotheonah, sudgy, Axxle, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Day 4 ends on April 28 at noon.

[Robz888]

Argh. I'm actually surprised. I thought there was at least some chance Voltaire was pulling a double bluff and was indeed 1-shot BP. I expected the SK to play it safe and kill sudgy.

[Robz888]

So we only get 2 more lynches, then. (And you're all going to waste one of them on me.) Scott, mcmc, Joth. One of these people is the SK. I guess I should re-read, although I don't know what to look for.

[mcmcsalot]

Ohhh, were wasting one on you because you could indeed be sk with first draft who grabbed night 3 vig to get a double kill.

I find that super unlikely, but I also find it unlikely you as town grab night three vig with first draft pick. In fact why didn't you just get vengeful? It still kills one player, can activate earlier, and has probably a statistically better chance of hitting mafia.

[Robz888]

Ohhh, were wasting one on you because you could indeed be sk with first draft who grabbed night 3 vig to get a double kill.

I find that super unlikely, but I also find it unlikely you as town grab night three vig with first draft pick. In fact why didn't you just get vengeful? It still kills one player, can activate earlier, and has probably a statistically better chance of hitting mafia.

I will walk you through my thought process again. While I initially picked Jailkeeper, I changed my mind to Night 3 Vig, because I thought it was important to deny Slot 1 to scum. I thought was a slot they would go for and I could make a mafia person a Goon that way. Within Slot 1, I chose Night 3 Vig over Vengeful for this reason: I believe, sincerely, that Vigs should not shoot early. Therefore, Vengeful was the same as Night Vig on Nights 1 and 2, because I wouldn't use either PRs there.

On Night 3, Vig is superior, because I want to be able to take that shot, regardless of whether I get shot or not.

Living past Night 4 is unlikely enough--although somehow I'm surviving every game lately--that I didn't consider it.

So that was my thinking. For instance, if I had been Vengeful, I could not have shot mail-mi last night.

[Robz888]

As I've said many times, the sincere, honest-to-goodness truth is that as SK with first draft I would take Survivor and win instantly.

[Robz888]

Look, the SK, whoever he is, has a decent chance of winning, much better than most games. What did it take to get him there? The deaths of all three mafia in two days and nights. That's not something you can count on!

My point is, at the time I had to make my choice, I couldn't have counted on such unbelievably favorable SK conditions to arrive.

[mcmcsalot]

Yea, while I think your wrong that survivor is an instant win. You could have also converted to townie.

I still disagree that vig was a good choice, and I think your reasoning is ridiculous I do find it difficult to see you pick to stay as sk.

I won't lynch. Robz

Also if it matters I was neighborize last night.

[Robz888]

Yea, while I think your wrong that survivor is an instant win. You could have also converted to townie.

I still disagree that vig was a good choice, and I think your reasoning is ridiculous I do find it difficult to see you pick to stay as sk.

I won't lynch. Robz

Also if it matters I was neighborize last night.

In practice, Survivor is very likely an instant win. Eevee was Survivor in Modern Comm, I don't know if you remember. He claimed Day 2. It never made sense for town (or scum) to kill him, and his situation was actually MORE ambiguous because there was a chance he was lying about his role. Ultimately the mafia just came clean and told him, they need his vote for a majority, and he won alongside them. If somehow town had gained the upper hand, he would have won with them, instead.

[Robz888]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

[Axxle]

Look, the SK, whoever he is, has a decent chance of winning, much better than most games. What did it take to get him there? The deaths of all three mafia in two days and nights. That's not something you can count on!

My point is, at the time I had to make my choice, I couldn't have counted on such unbelievably favorable SK conditions to arrive.

I think the SK is in a worse position now than if there were mafia left, since now we're SK hunting instead of mafia hunting and mafia is unlikely to try to shoot SK who is bullet proof.

Survivor was definitely not an auto win, they should definitely get lynched or shot before mylo since at it's best it's a role that basically makes everyone hated and at it's worst it's an sk no killing until the end.

All that said I think I prefer joth today, I think there's still a small chance that the SK kills you tonight or tomorrow.

[mcmcsalot]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

I just thin you didn't realize you most likely create another tv because no upper draft townie excepts doc/cop/jk to still be aroun instead they grab a less important power. So I think your plan to help town was flawed. Also I think vengeful operates similar to vig because then if mafia kills you it's a guaranteed mafia kill. Where as with vig you shot a townie

That's really my only final qualm, I think vengeful is much better for town than vig, is a guareteed mafia kill if you are targeted for nk, and I think you are a popular nk especially if there is an sk. Vengeful does not help sk at all however and vig is very good for sk.

[mcmcsalot]

I agree with acxle

[Axxle]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

Strongman? It's not *that* strong. All it does is nerf a few power roles. N3 Vig? Maybe. But I'd much rather have actual town power in the form of cops than deny mafia things.

In a magic draft you go for a win condition first, then you can think about denying your opponent's win condition second. Play to win, not not to lose.

[Robz888]

Survivor was definitely not an auto win, they should definitely get lynched or shot before mylo since at it's best it's a role that basically makes everyone hated and at it's worst it's an sk no killing until the end.

This is just not. We played with a Survivor 10 games ago. I was mafia. It NEVER made sense for us to kill the Survivor, he's a potential mafia member. And it never made sense for the town to lynch him, he's a potential town member. I'm sure there are edge cases where like a vig could get him or something, but it's a really strong role to simply win with.

[Robz888]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

I just thin you didn't realize you most likely create another tv because no upper draft townie excepts doc/cop/jk to still be aroun instead they grab a less important power. So I think your plan to help town was flawed. Also I think vengeful operates similar to vig because then if mafia kills you it's a guaranteed mafia kill. Where as with vig you shot a townie

That's really my only final qualm, I think vengeful is much better for town than vig, is a guareteed mafia kill if you are targeted for nk, and I think you are a popular nk especially if there is an sk. Vengeful does not help sk at all however and vig is very good for sk.

You misunderstand what Vengeful does!!! I do not automatically shoot the person who shot me. I simply get to shoot someone, when I get shot. It's not guaranteed to kill scum, or the person who killed me. It's just a vig shot that I use when I die.

Or else, my understanding of what it does is wrong and I made a horrible error.

[Robz888]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

Strongman? It's not *that* strong. All it does is nerf a few power roles. N3 Vig? Maybe. But I'd much rather have actual town power in the form of cops than deny mafia things.

In a magic draft you go for a win condition first, then you can think about denying your opponent's win condition second. Play to win, not not to lose.

The only thing that really scares me is scum with super strong PRs. It was Vengeful and Night 3 Vig I really waned to block off. Extra shots for scum on Night 3, or when they die? Remember, extra shots are much better for scum than town, because scum actually knows who to shoot.

[Robz888]

Mcmcsalot, I am right. From mafiascum wiki:

"A Vengeful player is a one that, when lynched, is awarded the ability to kill any other player as they die.
Vengeful roles are much more commonly Town than Mafia, as Vengeful Mafia roles essentially punish the Town for lynching them."

Although, I could have sworn faust said his version of vengeful triggers upon night kill, not upon lynch.

[mcmcsalot]

Ohhhh, this is important, I thought vengeful took down the person who kills/hammer you. Not that you chose a vengekill. Okay, I now get it, this makes vengeful better to keep from scum and not better than vig.

So yea Joth lynch today?

[Robz888]

Joth lynch maybe, but I want to re-read.

[Axxle]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

Strongman? It's not *that* strong. All it does is nerf a few power roles. N3 Vig? Maybe. But I'd much rather have actual town power in the form of cops than deny mafia things.

In a magic draft you go for a win condition first, then you can think about denying your opponent's win condition second. Play to win, not not to lose.

The only thing that really scares me is scum with super strong PRs. It was Vengeful and Night 3 Vig I really waned to block off. Extra shots for scum on Night 3, or when they die? Remember, extra shots are much better for scum than town, because scum actually knows who to shoot.

Vengeful only works if you die at night, which is pretty unlikely if scum gets that slot. And in the most likely case the SK would have used up their shot on scum anyway so it's a bit of a wash.

N3 vig is gets them another kill, but there are a lot of other roles that do the same thing.  1-shot lynchproof gets them an extra kill, 1-shot PGO gets them potentially a lot of other kills, and 1-shot Bus Driver/Redirector might let them redirect the Vig kill or mess with investigative roles causing a mislynch and another kill.

[Axxle]

Day 1: Lurking, OMGUS, "Why single me out, I'm lurking just like a lot of other people" sounds like scum frustrated they're being suspected for the wrong reasons. There was an Andrew vote in an odd time, which is tending town. Made it look really reluctant that he votes for ADK towards the end of the day despite being very willing earlier.  This feels very SK where he wants a lynch to go through that isn't him, but doesn't want to make it look like he knows what he's doing.  This prevents mafia from targeting him if he's helping to lynch scum while trying to not look bad in towns eyes if we mislynch town.

Day 2: A bit over eager about the whole "lynch scum day 1 = town win" fact. Spreads misinformation about a possible vig. Has a scum read on Robz this day as Mafia, still scumreading Robz as SK, this makes it look like his reads are really static and lazy. Mentions SK so freaking often this day, it's on his mind to find a scapegoat.

Day 3: Still on about Robz, clears him quickly (i might be missing context here?), mentions what an sk would do... and pretty much did it himself all game (lurked like crazy and being noncontroversal), started the Andrew mislynch, felt bad about it at the very end of the day but didn't bother to unvote or really shake the wagon in any way, starts super suspecting Robz again, maybe forgetting he cleared him earlier.  "promise that's not a scumslip" ಠ_ಠ,  Very big advocate of the SK conversion slot theory, which he himself falls into.  did advocate robz to not shoot which ends up with joth himself getting lynched which is slight town. weird wishywashy post about gutreading robz.


Vote: joth

[jotheonah]

Did you guys see the part where I stopped the train on the Andrew list? Where I repeatedly pointed out the things that are scummy about myself?

I am frustrated because I don't know of a defense that would be satisfying to you guys. I did good work scumhunting earlier in the game. I got us onto the ADK lynch. The only reason I didn't unvote yesterday when Andrew started seeming townie was because I forgot I was voting for him (i started voting for him way earlier in the day)

I honestly think Robz is our SK here. I think he picked vig for the extra shot with every intention to win as SK. I think he thought about, at the time, what he would say when asked why he picked vig and the "deny the mafia a slot" thing is a well-rehearsed story.

If it isn't Robz, and I hope you will listen to this when I'm dead if not when I'm alive, I think it's mcmc. I think he's been quiet all game and now suddenly, when his lynch is viable, he's all over the place and he's aggressively on me. And I mean aggressive in the sense of early and determined, not in the sense of mean.

Please don't lynch me. It might very well cost us the game.

Vote: Robz888

[jotheonah]

I think we should remember that Voltaire was also in favor of a Robz lynch.

[jotheonah]

mentions what an sk would do... and pretty much did it himself all game (lurked like crazy and being noncontroversal),

this is confusing to me on two counts.
(1) if it were true, why would I say it and draw attention to myself as SK?
(2) it isn't true! I lurked a ton for the beginning of the game, because I was IRL busy. Once I jumped in though, I was a very active and involved participant, including taking a lot of stances. Speaking out against lynches that are about to role on on their own -- like I did with Scott/ADK day one and tried to do yesterday with Andrew -- is the very opposite of being noncontroversial. If you really want to call me a lurker this game, do a post count. You'll see that you're wrong.

[Axxle]

You agreed here:

I don't know. All I can point to is my 133+ scumhunting skills and those unfortunately mean nothing here.

Thank you Robz for reminding me about when I was SK, because it made me realize. When I was SK I was really really scared of being lynched. I think we want to look for someone who has either lurked like crazy or been really really noncontroversial. Someone who hasn't been worth suspecting, or someone who was suspected and reacted weirdly strongly to it.

I think that's you!

Someone OTHER than me. On account of, I'm town.

[Axxle]

Basically you are projecting your own play as SK as how other people would play SK, then just handwaving things away when it's brought up you do similar things.

[jotheonah]

technically, I didn't agree with you there. I just asked that you look elsewhere.

PPE: I'm not handwaving now. I'm directly challenging it with facts. I have not played like an SK this game, and I defy you to come up with a specific example where I have.

[Axxle]

I had a whole story and everything.

[Axxle]

I mean I don't need to convince scum that they're scum so...

[jotheonah]

No all you need to do is convince yourself that I'm scum. And it seems that you have.

[Robz888]

I probably lean toward Joth, just because I lean away from other people. Mcmc, I think, would be more active as SK. Scotty is JUST like he was in the previous games, where he was very scummy lurker but actually town.

Could either be SK? Absolutely.

But I don't know. I'm probably leaning Joth for that reason alone.

I should really re-read, but I don't know what I would see that would make me go, "Oh, SK!" I know, for instance, that Scotty was a lynch choic Day 1 and showed survivalist tendencies that looked kind of scummy... but he did that in Adventure Time, too. And was town.

Mcmc... mcmc probably knows how to fool me at this point.

Ack, this is really hard.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: joth

I think its joth or robz with more emphasis on joth.

[jotheonah]

Sudgy and Scott, it'd be great if y'all weighed in.

[faust]

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russell

Vote Count 4.1

jotheonah (2): Axxle, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (3): Robz888, sudgy, scott_pilgrim

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Day 4 ends on April 28 at noon.

[Axxle]

Request prods

[Axxle]

oh, i guess it's easter for some people. i can wait till after that.

[Robz888]

We've got some time. I know I would like to re-read. And we need to hear from sudgy.

[scott_pilgrim]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, mafia just hasn't really been a priority for me lately.  I really wanted to do a re-read but I haven't gotten around to it and probably won't at least for a few days.

I think there's a really high chance it's either mcmc or joth, though neither of them particularly scream SK to me, but just by PoE...I know it's not me, pretty sure it's not Axxle or sudgy, and I guess whether I think Robz is a possibility will probably depend on my reread but right now I think it's just really unlikely.

[sudgy]

Sorry, I was unexpectedly busy yesterday (and haven't really thought of much before that...).  Anyway, I have no idea.  And that is bad.

[Axxle]

Sorry, I was unexpectedly busy yesterday (and haven't really thought of much before that...).  Anyway, I have no idea.  And that is bad.

do you have any town reads? When I'm lost I usually just sheep them, to pretty good effect in a recent game offsite

If you don't have town reads either I might have to reevaluate my read on you which I'd rather not do

[Robz888]

Okay, I re-read the whole game. Man, this is really hard. I think it's perfectly possible for each of Joth, mcmc, and Scotty to be the SK.

There isn't really a good reason for any of them to be the SK, and I'm worried none of them actually are. I am slightly concerned that it's Axxle, even though Axxle being SK is contradicted by all the actual claim/slot/PR action evidence that I have generally been relying on here. Of course, Axxle is also the one who has argued against me on all that time after time.

Well, this is just a sidebar, since I'm not going to overlook all that evidence.

I have no idea who it is, out of the three suspects. The re-read gave me absolutely nothing. All three were relatively close to meta, exhibited some survivalism, had periods of lurking and periods of activity. I mean, generally speaking, these are the three least active people from Day 1, and here they are.

My case on Joth is so thin it's barely a case... it's basically, he's been trying harder, he's had a little more self-awareness. He brought up the SK sooner than anyone else, as well. It's less than nothing, but I don't know what else to do.

Vote: Jotheonah

[sudgy]

Everybody, please post something saying why you are town.  I seem to remember having a role-related reason for thinking Robz is town, but I can't remember.  Hopefully this should help at least me.

Now, I'm town because as SK I would have gone for conversion, not Slot 9.  And I wouldn't fakeclaim cop then.

[Robz888]

Everybody, please post something saying why you are town.  I seem to remember having a role-related reason for thinking Robz is town, but I can't remember.  Hopefully this should help at least me.

Now, I'm town because as SK I would have gone for conversion, not Slot 9.  And I wouldn't fakeclaim cop then.

Sudgy, we all believe you are town. If you're not, that's really weird, and we'e just going to lose. Ditto for Axxle, although the chance of him being SK is greater. Still, oh well.

My argument for why I am town: I got to go first in the draft. I could have picked Survivor and basically sealed my win from the start. Winning is the thing I care about most. I would not make a sub-optimal move on purpose. It's true that if I am SK I am in good shape to win now, but at the time we picked PRs, I couldn't have known that. SKs usually lose. I had the opportunity to switch from SK to survivor guaranteed. If you think I'm SK, you have to think I passed on that. I wouldn't have, and I didn't because I am not SK.

I advocate the Joth lynch.

If Joth is wrong, it'll be a hard call between mcmc and Scotty. And there is little point saying which way I lean, so I am likely to survive tonight anyway.

[Axxle]

Everybody, please post something saying why you are town.  I seem to remember having a role-related reason for thinking Robz is town, but I can't remember.  Hopefully this should help at least me.

Now, I'm town because as SK I would have gone for conversion, not Slot 9.  And I wouldn't fakeclaim cop then.

I was a staunch advocate for every scum read I have, which sk wouldn't do as it would draw nightkills if they're wrong. I attempted to save ash (although I got him killed), which sk wouldn't do as he'd want ash to keep finding mafia. I've been town all game?

Most town will have trouble answering this since only scum is self conscious of their own play.

[sudgy]

Most town will have trouble answering this since only scum is self conscious of their own play.

I'm self conscious of my own play as town.

[mcmcsalot]

Most town will have trouble answering this since only scum is self conscious of their own play.

I'm self conscious of my own play as town.

I was self conscious of my town play for a looong time.

[jotheonah]

I don't know what else to do.

Confess to being the serial killer, maybe?

Everyone, one of two things is happening. Either we have a lurking serial killer amongst scott and mcmc who has no reason to stop lurking this close to a win or we have a maverick, WIFOMing, Xenatos Gambit serial killer in Robz who decided to go for the serial killer win, prepared a fake claim DEPENDENT on the fact that he could prove he had first pick of roles and chose not to convert, and is now coasting that to victory.

I suppose Axxle or sudgy could be SK on the same grounds, but Robz is the one that's raised everybody's radars. We're not bad players, our instincts are good, and I think now the best play is just to trust them.



Why am I town? Every single thing I've done this game has been pro-town, accept that I didn't try hard enough to stop the Andrew lynch last time when I realized he was probably not scum. In general though, I have gone out on a limb for other people more than once, and that is just not a thing that a serial killer, for whom any lynch is a good lynch, bothers to do.

Scott was at L-1 when I switched to ADK and deflected the wagon. That's the best thing I've done this game, and I was very proud of it. It doesn't prove I'm not the SK, I acknowledge. But it's also a weird move for the SK to make.

I've also drawn attention to myself and to the possibility of a serial killer a lot more times than the serial killer would have. I'm remembering one post from earlier in the game where no one was talking/thinking about the SK and I was like "BUt wait guys who's the serial killer?" That's the sort of thing the SK doesn't do.

Finally, I am pretty drunk and will be up a little while (maybe an hour) so AMA if you're into it.

[mcmcsalot]

I think my number pick and draft position makes sense from a town point of view. I would have picked a number lower than the number I was given in the signup list if I was the sk. I think my unvote if Adk only to eventually go back to Adk was towny since there
Would have been no reason to even move my vote as sk.

[faust]

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce."
- Karl Marx

Vote Count 4.2

jotheonah (3): Axxle, mcmcsalot, Robz888 (L-1)
Robz888 (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (2): sudgy, scott_pilgrim

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Day 4 ends on April 28 at noon.

[sudgy]

Scott, I'm waiting on you.

[Robz888]

He's on now. Post something, Scott!

[scott_pilgrim]

Scott, I'm waiting on you.

Well I don't know what I can say, because I just went through the game doing things as normal, I didn't do anything in particular to make myself look townie (I feel like if I did that would be scummy).  I mean it's hard to defend myself against the case of "it's not sudgy or Robz or Axxle" because I agree with that, and honestly neither of joth or mcmc looks particularly scummy, so I can't make myself look townie in comparison to them either.

I know that's a totally unhelpful response, but I just don't know what I can do to convince you that I'm town because I didn't do anything for the sake of making myself look townie.  When I re-read D3 and D4 (which I'm about to start after I post this) maybe I'll find something scummy about joth or mcmc, but otherwise I'm not sure what I can say...

[scott_pilgrim]

This is interesting, joth basically claims VT before he has to (but not number, slot, etc.):

I'm a little worried this plan ends with me mislynched though. I won't say any more about that yet. I also worry about the snag Robz found.

[scott_pilgrim]

Ok, so here's the rough part.

I didn't really read the setup and I didn't know how drafting worked when I did it.

So I picked 33, which in retrospect seems obnoxiously high.

I tried for mafia cop.

I got VT.

I'm not sure what to think of this.  This would be a very safe fakeclaim if he's SK since he was second to claim (what are the odds someone else would have picked 33).  I would need to think a little more to figure out if there would be any cases where he would really need to lie (and if he did, why would he say he picked slot 3).  Actually that would be a very odd lie since he's still caught if someone else had 11th pick and I can't think of a case where the lie benefits him.  So it's either SK telling the truth, or town telling the truth...which is not helpful...

[sudgy]

I think Robz is town because of those role-related reasons.  If we don't lynch the SK today, I'll consider him more, because his play makes me think of an SK.

Almost everybody gave, what I thought, to be a very towny response to my question.  "Uh, I don't know, maybe this?"  There was one exception.  It's pretty obvious who that exception is.  I would vote joth now if he weren't at L-1.  I'll hammer him if it gets close to deadline.  Joth has a few other slightly scummy things that Robz has mentioned as well.

[Robz888]

Sudgy, I would advise simply hammering now. I want to find out if we win, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere.

[sudgy]

Sudgy, I would advise simply hammering now. I want to find out if we win, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere.

Alright, I'll give joth one last time to respond.

[jotheonah]

If we don't lynch the SK today, I'll consider him more, because his play makes me think of an SK.

I really hope you're serious about that.

What's going to happen now is you're going to hammer me.

I'm going to flip town.

Tomorrow will be LyLo.

The temptation will be to lynch Scott Pilgrim.

If you do that we will almost certainly lose the game.

I'm pretty certain it's Robz and that, failing that, it's mcmc. I think this is a time when deduction and PoE are getting us nowhere and, in fact, leading us astray, and we should be trusting our gut. And, answer honestly, who in this town is not getting a gut read on Robz, or has not at some point in the last two game days. He's got to be the SK. It's the only thing that makes sense. Lynch him, don't lynch me.

[jotheonah]

Sudgy, I would advise simply hammering now. I want to find out if we win, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere.

also this is an example of something very scummy Robz has said

[Robz888]

Sudgy, I would advise simply hammering now. I want to find out if we win, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere.

also this is an example of something very scummy Robz has said

It's just, I'm anxious to see your flip.

[jotheonah]

Sudgy, I would advise simply hammering now. I want to find out if we win, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere.

also this is an example of something very scummy Robz has said

It's just, I'm anxious to see your flip.

And then to orchestrate one more mislynch and win the game, I know. But you just have to be patient.

[Robz888]

Sudgy, I would advise simply hammering now. I want to find out if we win, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere.

also this is an example of something very scummy Robz has said

It's just, I'm anxious to see your flip.

And then to orchestrate one more mislynch and win the game, I know. But you just have to be patient.

Your certainty that it's me makes me more sure you are scum. The rest of us have no idea who it is.

[sudgy]

Let's just get on with it.  Vote: jotheonah

[jotheonah]

Yay! Town Wins!

[jotheonah]

I'm just kidding, town's definitely going to lose. I'm town. Please lynch Robz tomorrow kthxbai

[Robz888]

Are you really? Really really?

Please be trolling?

[jotheonah]

Nope, I'm definitely town, like I've been saying. 

[Robz888]

Well, in case I die, I say, lynch mcmcsalot.

[Robz888]

Nope, I'm definitely town, like I've been saying. 

Ugh. Then sorry man.

What can I do to convince you not to leave with a "Lynch Robz!" attitude?

[Axxle]

Sorry for the fandub:

What this exchange reminded me of.

this just seems like joth is having some fun as the SK before the flip.

If not, I'll need to rethink things.

[Robz888]

Well, I hope so.

[jotheonah]

Nope, I'm definitely town, like I've been saying. 

Ugh. Then sorry man.

What can I do to convince you not to leave with a "Lynch Robz!" attitude?

be less consistently scummy? it doesn't matter man, they won't lynch you. gg.

[jotheonah]

I have a strong town read on sudgy and scott. The facts seem to acquit Axxle, but if they didn't I would find him scummy. Otherwise, it's got to be Robz or mcmc.

[Robz888]

I have a strong town read on sudgy and scott. The facts seem to acquit Axxle, but if they didn't I would find him scummy. Otherwise, it's got to be Robz or mcmc.

Well, I agree with all of this (although the facts acquit me too!), so it has to be mcmc.

[sudgy]

I'll wait to rethink things until Joth's flip, because he still could be trolling us.

Everybody but Robz, though, I haven't found any reason to think they're the SK.  Robz, on the other hand, gives me a lot of reason to think he's the SK, and a lot of reason to think he isn't.  So, in the end, I'm not sure.

[jotheonah]

This day felt so unfair to me. It felt like I was the de facto suspect because of faulty PoE, nothing I did was responsible for my impending lynch, and nothing I could do would change it. I hope that no one else is in that position tomorrow. I think that everyone should be on the table for LyLo.

[Robz888]

This day felt so unfair to me. It felt like I was the de facto suspect because of faulty PoE, nothing I did was responsible for my impending lynch, and nothing I could do would change it. I hope that no one else is in that position tomorrow. I think that everyone should be on the table for LyLo.

I agree that the day was unfair to you. It's not that you seemed like the SK, it's just that everyone seemed even less like the SK.

[sudgy]

This day felt so unfair to me. It felt like I was the de facto suspect because of faulty PoE, nothing I did was responsible for my impending lynch, and nothing I could do would change it. I hope that no one else is in that position tomorrow. I think that everyone should be on the table for LyLo.

PoE wasn't my reasons...

With these posts, I'm starting to think joth is trolling.

[jotheonah]

I mean, that's just how the game goes sometimes? It just means whoever the SK is doing a really good job at what they're supposed to be doing.

[sudgy]

This day felt so unfair to me. It felt like I was the de facto suspect because of faulty PoE, nothing I did was responsible for my impending lynch, and nothing I could do would change it. I hope that no one else is in that position tomorrow. I think that everyone should be on the table for LyLo.

PoE wasn't my reasons...

With these posts, I'm starting to think joth is trolling.

Well, it partly was my reasons, but not all of them.

[jotheonah]

This day felt so unfair to me. It felt like I was the de facto suspect because of faulty PoE, nothing I did was responsible for my impending lynch, and nothing I could do would change it. I hope that no one else is in that position tomorrow. I think that everyone should be on the table for LyLo.

PoE wasn't my reasons...

With these posts, I'm starting to think joth is trolling.

Please stop convincing yourself to believe things because you want them to be true.

[jotheonah]

If I'm trolling, the game is over and nothing matters. So the worthwhile thing to do with this twilight is proceed as if I am NOT trolling.

[Robz888]

If I'm trolling, the game is over and nothing matters. So the worthwhile thing to do with this twilight is proceed as if I am NOT trolling.

I agree, and you better NOT be trolling!

[sudgy]

How often does faust come around?

[Robz888]

He's on German time. I'ts 11:00 PM there, but his hours are weird. It could be awhile.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh I hope joth is trolling.......

[jotheonah]

I am not that dedicated to trolling and you all know it.

[Robz888]

This is truly, truly painful.

[Robz888]

STILL no flip???

[faust]

THREAD LOCKED!

Sorry about the long twilight...

[faust]

Day 4 Final Vote Count

jotheonah (4): Axxle, mcmcsalot, Robz888, sudgy
Robz888 (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (1): scott_pilgrim

With 6 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

[faust]

Only a few of the original attendees of the conference remained. Yet noone seemed to had a strong opinion on who the killer might be.

"We should look at Plato!", said Kierkegaard. "He already admitted to having killed one of our own. A person who refuted morals like this will do it again."

"How about we look at you?", responded Plato. And so it happened. Hegel stood by as the others held Kierkegaard firmly, and Plato pressed a pillow against his mouth. Slowly, the life slipped out of their victim.

jotheonah has been lynched! He was Søren Kierkegaard, the Vanilla Townie.

Night 4 has begun! Night actions are due within 24 hours. All players need to check in with the mods during the night, even if they do not have a Night action. Day 5 will start in 24 hours.

[faust]

The conference had been severly decimated; only a third of the original attendees remained, and the killer still remained hidden. That night, the philosophers went to bed with an uneasy feeling.

As midnight approached, Confucius' door was opened. Still, he remained sleeping in his bed. Only when the killer's knife opened his belly did the Chinese scholar open his eyes, but by then, it was already too late.

sudgy has been killed in the night. He was Confucius, the 1-shot Alignment Cop.

Day 5 has started!

Vote Count 5.0

Not Voting (4): Robz888, Axxle, scott_pilgrim, mcmcsalot

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch

Day 5 ends on May 4 at 10 am forum time.

THREAD UNLOCKED!

[scott_pilgrim]

So I think we no lynch today right?  And I think in theory the SK should not kill tonight either if he has that option, and we go on indefinitely not killing anyone...

[mcmcsalot]

Yea, Faust what's the cycle/plan? Are we forced to lynch? Is the sk forced to kill?

[Robz888]

We do need to hear from faust how this would work. Who would be required to take action first, us or the SK? Or would just both sides lose after three days/nights of this?

[Robz888]

Faust?

[Axxle]

I was talking about this situation offsite (4p lylo).  The concensus there seemed to be to no lynch anyway since the last scum will probably kill regardless? I disagree. I honestly don't understand their thinking since if it's in town's best interest to no lynch it's in scum's best interest to no kill (barring investigative roles).

Also it's a lot easier for scum to talk one town into voting with him than 2 town. Look at Adventure Time where I could have totally talked mail-mi into voting with me in LYLO but it never got there.

I think it's our best interest to figure out who the sk is now rather than later.

[Axxle]

I was talking about this situation offsite (4p mylo).  The consensus there seemed to be to no lynch anyway since the last scum will probably kill regardless? I disagree. I honestly don't understand their thinking since if it's in town's best interest to no lynch it's in scum's best interest to no kill (barring investigative roles).

Also it's a lot easier for scum to talk one town into voting with him than 2 town. Look at Adventure Time where I could have totally talked mail-mi into voting with me in LYLO but it never got there.

I think it's our best interest to figure out who the sk is now rather than later.

fixed.

[Axxle]

Plus in MYLO someone can vote without worrying that the SK will hammer.

[Robz888]

I was talking about this situation offsite (4p lylo).  The concensus there seemed to be to no lynch anyway since the last scum will probably kill regardless? I disagree. I honestly don't understand their thinking since if it's in town's best interest to no lynch it's in scum's best interest to no kill (barring investigative roles).

Also it's a lot easier for scum to talk one town into voting with him than 2 town. Look at Adventure Time where I could have totally talked mail-mi into voting with me in LYLO but it never got there.

I think it's our best interest to figure out who the sk is now rather than later.

^^I likely agree, BUT we need to hear from faust. There may be some win con in effect that would burden the SK with making a move before town. If that is the case, I would rather decide tomorrow, after the SK shoots, possibly. Or, I want to think about maybe doing that, at least. But I need to know if that's the case. If we are just going to be caught in a No Lynch No Kill spiral, then yes, we will just lynch today.

[faust]

This is the ruling I will use in this situation: If the game has stalled (i.e. noone has been using any of their actions) for a whole cycle (i.e. one Day and one Night), the first faction to not use their factional ability will lose the game (the lynch is considered as Town's factional ability in this context).

In the situation at hand, if there is one No Lynch and one No Kill, town would be forced to lynch the following Day.

[mcmcsalot]

So we should no kill and see what sk does anyway then deal with it.

[Axxle]

Vote: mcmc

?

[Robz888]

Nah, I think we should just lynch. Either we will be in the same position tomorrow, or SK will kill... and if SK kills, it's going to be in order to trick us or gain some advantage. I'd rather not give him the chance.

PPE, yeah that's what I'm thinking.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: mcmc

?

1) Be Sk
2) Suggest plan that only has potential to hurt you
4) Profit?

[Robz888]

I'm going to go for a run and make sure that's what I want to do, but I lean toward voting mcmc.

Time to start mounting that defense, bro, although I'm probably going to ignore it.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm going to go for a run and make sure that's what I want to do, but I lean toward voting mcmc.

Time to start mounting that defense, bro, although I'm probably going to ignore it.

Oh man, this is bad for town

[mcmcsalot]

I'm going to go for a run and make sure that's what I want to do, but I lean toward voting mcmc.

Time to start mounting that defense, bro, although I'm probably going to ignore it.

Oh man, this is bad for town

Not you running, you and axxle thinking im sk

[Robz888]

Well who do you think it is? Scotty?

[Axxle]

Nah, I think we should just lynch. Either we will be in the same position tomorrow, or SK will kill... and if SK kills, it's going to be in order to trick us or gain some advantage. I'd rather not give him the chance.

PPE, yeah that's what I'm thinking.

I mean we can hope the SK makes a mistake, but everyone left is pretty competent.

[mcmcsalot]

Well who do you think it is? Scotty?

I have no clue, the draft honestly does not clear you, because if you win, your choice makes sense. Though I believe the threat of being shot is still high enough you wouldn't have done it. So axxle or scott, I have no idea of what scott has done all game. I should reread scott and axxle. Axxle is the only one who vocally stated he would not try to get sk conversion. However would he say that as sk? probably not as not only makes him a more likely sk, it singles him out. so yes scotty

vote: scotty

[mcmcsalot]

One defense, why would I not have shot robz already, his tendecy to lynch me is huuuuuge

[Robz888]

One defense, why would I not have shot robz already, his tendecy to lynch me is huuuuuge

I mean, you had to kill the absolute ICs.

[Robz888]

I think there are some good reasons it can't be Axxle. I think the likelihood of mcmc or Scotty is roughly equal, but mcmc is slightly more likely.

[faust]

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Vote Count 5.1

mcmcsalot (1): Axxle
scott_pilgrim (1): mcmcsalot

Not Voting (2): Robz888, scott_pilgrim

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch

Day 5 ends on May 4 at 10 am forum time.

[Axxle]

One defense, why would I not have shot robz already, his tendecy to lynch me is huuuuuge

I mean, you had to kill the absolute ICs.

And why kill Robz? I mean every town with their dying breath has said "please lynch robz when I die". He'd be an easy mislynch for you tomorrow.

[mcmcsalot]

One defense, why would I not have shot robz already, his tendecy to lynch me is huuuuuge

I mean, you had to kill the absolute ICs.

have all the kills been on absolute ic's? and you have been a psuedo IC for a while.

[Robz888]

One defense, why would I not have shot robz already, his tendecy to lynch me is huuuuuge

I mean, you had to kill the absolute ICs.

have all the kills been on absolute ic's? and you have been a psuedo IC for a while.

I agree, but very few people have recognized that, and I was less an IC than Voltaire, and a little less than sudgy.

[mcmcsalot]

One defense, why would I not have shot robz already, his tendecy to lynch me is huuuuuge

I mean, you had to kill the absolute ICs.

have all the kills been on absolute ic's? and you have been a psuedo IC for a while.

I agree, but very few people have recognized that, and I was less an IC than Voltaire, and a little less than sudgy.

but if i'm sk I need to survive this lynch and thats it. Sudgy puts me in a much better position to do that than you. I don't care that you are a little less of an ic I care about the lynch being anyone but me(if i'm sk) I think I kill you here everytime

[mcmcsalot]

also i don't pick the same draft number as my player list number if i am sk, that makes ZERO SENSE I pick a low but not too low number like 2/3/4

[Axxle]

unvote

What are you thinking, Scott?

[scott_pilgrim]

Coming into today I was pretty sure it was mcmc, but now I just have no idea.  I mean you guys can't all be town.  I think mcmc's point that he picked his player number (which was 14, so pretty high) is actually a really interesting one and would be pretty strange if he was the SK.  I mean I guess the idea would be he wants to WIFOM us but he's not psychic and he really should have preferred a better shot at a conversion or at least a good PR over a small thing that might save him if he manages to make it to lylo.

I think Robz has looked pretty scummy for the last day or so, but the fact is still that he got first pick and went for slot 1.  I had come up with that narrative earlier describing a case where he makes a bunch of risky lies as scum, but I think that was only possible if we saw only one shot on N3.  Since we saw two shots on N3, we know that he really did get first pick and go for slot 1.  I am not so confident in my gut read on Robz that I am going to let that outweigh how little I would expect Robz to not go for a conversion as SK with first pick.

Why did people think you (Axxle) were town again?  All we have is that you are confirmed bus driver who switched ash and Robz N2, I feel like there was something else?

[Axxle]

Why did people think you (Axxle) were town again?  All we have is that you are confirmed bus driver who switched ash and Robz N2, I feel like there was something else?

That and I didn't go for an SK conversion role is what people point to most often. I haven't paid too much attention to why people think I'm town because I don't really care.

[mcmcsalot]

I think it's like 40/60 axxle/Scott

[Robz888]

Scoty's number choice was 16, which is even stranger than mcmc's. So at least from me and Axxle's perspective, the number argument would lean us toward mcmc.

[Robz888]

The reason I have been saying Axxle is definitely town is because he picked a slot that didn't have conversion, took a PR that is only sort of helpful to SK, and then used it on Night 2, not to save himself but for pro-town reasons.

It just doesn't make any sense for him to be SK.

[Robz888]

Okay, yeah, Axxle is out. I mean if he is the SK, I guess he wins. It's just too implausible that he would do all that though and think it could work out. Right?

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, yeah, Axxle is out. I mean if he is the SK, I guess he wins. It's just too implausible that he would do all that though and think it could work out. Right?

Makes sense.

[Robz888]

Well, I'm not going to vote for Axxle, and I'm not going to talk myself into voting for Scotty. So I guess I'm going to vote for mcmcsalot.

I really, really don't want to blow it for town. It's interesting to be in this situation again so soon--and with Axxle and Scotty again!--just like Adventure Time. This scenario is I think very different though. In Adventure Time, I was basically on tilt, desperate to uncover the clues that would out the final mafia, and I was really afraid of letting down the speccies.

Here, well obviously I don't want to let down the speccies, but I feel much less responsible. The Adventure Time puzzle was solvable, whereas I'm not sure this one is. There really isn't a reason for anyone still alive to be an SK, but someone is, and I think it's basically going to be random whether we get him or not at this point.

[scott_pilgrim]

Is 1-shot bus driver considered to be better or worse than or roughly equal to ninja for an SK in this set-up?  I have trouble understanding the utility of bus driver for any alignment, it seems like it's just a guessing game (of course it worked out very nicely for town in this game, but that was very lucky).  Axxle got 13th pick so I don't think it would be unreasonable for him to just go for a weaker slot as SK (especially since I think he even said he wouldn't go for a conversion as SK).  So then there's just a problem of why did he use his shot when he did rather than saving it to try to save himself later, and yeah that seems like it would be a really odd play for the SK.  I guess I don't know whether I find that to be stranger than mcmc's number choice as SK though.  I can imagine there being some weird reason Axxle really thought he had to do what he did N2 for his own survival, that we just haven't thought of yet, whereas the only explanation that makes sense for mcmc's number choice is that he thought of his plan for how he would choose as town, got assigned SK, and stuck to his plan so that if he had to claim it he would look townier.

I don't know, it's honestly a toss-up for me and I think I feel the same way as Robz, that if we lose it won't have been something we can blame ourselves for, the SK just played really well and we're just taking a guess at who it is.  Of course, the candidates that it's a toss-up between for me are different than his.  I still need to think more about whether there's any reasonable explanation for Axxle's use of bus driver early on as SK, because if there's not then it just has to be mcmc.

[Robz888]

Scotty, I hear you, it's just too many things we would need to overlook for Axxle. Like, okay, he's SK and he's not going to bother going for conversion (already I find this kind of dubious). So he goes for this super weak PR category? I mean, why pursue Slot 6 over Slot 7, for instance? Even if he doesn't want to become a Lover, wouldn't he much rather have an additional 1-shot BP protection? And I don't think Slot 7 is like way more likely to be picked than Slot 6. (As it turns out, yes, it was, but I think it's really weird that multiple people wanted Neighborizer...) Bus Driver is actually on a lower tier of things the mafia might want.

So there's all that, making Axxle very unlikely. Then the timing of his claim and using his power, also tends him toward townie.

I mean, Axxle is a very, very savvy and unorthodox player. Unorthodox in the sense that he comes from this other mafia community where the norms of accepted play are a little different than ours.

It won't shock me if all of the above is wrong and Axxle is the SK. But if we lynch someone else, and it's Axxle, I'm going to just shrug and say "Well, bummer." But if we lynch Axxle and he's NOT the SK, I'm going to say (to myself), "Robz, you idiot, you knew that didn't make any sense."

So yeah, I'm not lynching Axxle.

[Robz888]

In fact, my gut is even saying that Axxle is scummier than Scotty and mcmc (mostly just because Scott and mcmc are so damn townie). But my gut is wrong all the time, and the facts strongly suggest otherwise.

[Axxle]

I'm going to be VLA till monday probably.

[faust]

"I secretly think reality exists so we can speculate about it."
- Slavoj Žižek

Vote Count 5.2

scott_pilgrim (1): mcmcsalot

Not Voting (3): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, Axxle

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch

Day 5 ends on May 4 at 10 am forum time.

[Axxle]

Request prods for all the persons.

[Robz888]

Sorry. I'm here.

[Robz888]

Had a very busy weekend.

WHat are you thinking, Axxle?

[mcmcsalot]

I'm here, still hope a) it's scotty(robz and axxle are pseudo cleared) and b) robz and axxle decide it's Scotty.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm here as well.

My thought right now is, if Robz is lynching mcmc, I don't have much choice.  I mean if Robz is 100% voting mcmc, then I would have to vote either Robz or mcmc for a lynch to get through.  For me it's between Axxle and mcmc, so that makes it mcmc.  Now maybe it's possible that Robz would switch his vote if he had to to get a lynch through, so I could still vote Axxle if I really wanted, but I don't really have a preference between Axxle and mcmc anyway.

[Axxle]

Had a very busy weekend.

WHat are you thinking, Axxle?

Scott's behavior day 1 didn't really feel SKy to me. I'm leaning mcmc but haven't ruled you out.

[Axxle]

Haven't been able to look at too much besides that. Busy weekend for me too.

[Robz888]

I'm likely going to vote for mcmc, yeah.

[Robz888]

Eh, time to take the plunge: Vote: mcmcsalot

[mcmcsalot]

Eh, time to take the plunge: Vote: mcmcsalot

Town loses, this is why I would have killed you if i was the sk 100% of the time

name a game you have A changed your mind or B read me correctly lately

[Robz888]

The "reading you correctly" argument isn't going to work here. I read you right in that Blitz game two games ago.

If you are the SK, would you have killed me over sudgy? What would you have gained for that? Sudgy was also going to push you.

Axxle, if you see this and decide not to hammer, we can 100% confirm you as town, and then maybe you and I can have a discussion about whether we are sure it should be mcmc over Scotty.

[Axxle]

2 persons does not a hammer make.

[Robz888]

Oh, I thought Scotty was voting for mcmc. Mcmc is voting for Scotty.

[Robz888]

What do you make of mcmc's defense?

[Axxle]

What do you make of mcmc's defense?

Vote: mcmc

I just realize that he *did* try to kill you, the night I busdrove.

[Axxle]

*realized

[Robz888]

What do you make of mcmc's defense?

Vote: mcmc

I just realize that he *did* try to kill you, the night I busdrove.

Maybe ashersky tried to kill me and he killed theorel, though, right? Anything that happened to me was going to happen to ashersky, so it could have been SK or ashersky.

[Axxle]

What do you make of mcmc's defense?

Vote: mcmc

I just realize that he *did* try to kill you, the night I busdrove.

Maybe ashersky tried to kill me and he killed theorel, though, right? Anything that happened to me was going to happen to ashersky, so it could have been SK or ashersky.

I deleted my other thoughts, I was going to say that it's pretty convincing. I think sudgy was the right kill last night, but I think if I was mcmc I would have killed you earlier. I realized that thinking could very well be wrong because of that night though.

[scott_pilgrim]

Eh, time to take the plunge: Vote: mcmcsalot

Town loses, this is why I would have killed you if i was the sk 100% of the time

name a game you have A changed your mind or B read me correctly lately

I don't think I would have NK'd Robz over sudgy if I were in mcmc's position, but that doesn't mean that's how mcmc would have played.  But I think it's a really weak defense anyway, because even if he would have preferred Robz, maybe he would have gone for sudgy instead because that's who any of us as SK would have targeted.

And I'm not sure Robz's ability to read you is really relevant; I don't think any of us read you as being particularly scummy, it's just that your less towny than everyone else.

[Axxle]

You're town now SP.

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah, you guys know I'm town now that I haven't hammered.

Should I go ahead and hammer, or should I give mcmc a chance to defend himself?

[Robz888]

Okay cool, Scotty is town.

[Robz888]

Hammer for the win if you are the SK (well I mean, don't, but that's what you should do.)

If you don't you're confirmed town, and we should talk more.

[Robz888]

Scotty, do you agree with me about Axxle not being the SK for reasons?

Mcmc, from your perspective, it must now be Axxle or me. IF you believe me, you must think it's Axxle. Why is it Axxle, mcmc?

Let's keep talking.

[Axxle]

Let's keep talking.

I'm not going to talk! Since I'm off to get food. After that sure.

[scott_pilgrim]

Scotty, do you agree with me about Axxle not being the SK for reasons?

I think normally it would be enough for me to think Axxle's really unlikely to be the SK, but given that mcmc also looks/looked pretty towny for a while had me thinking it was like 60/37/3 mcmc/Axxle/Robz.  Now that Axxle has pointed out someone tried to NK Robz earlier and mcmc has pointed out that he would have NK'd Robz, I think it's more like 70/28/2 mcmc/Axxle/Robz.

[Robz888]

Well, I guess, the only reason we actually have to think that someone tried to NK me is because Axxle said so. If he is the SK, he could just be lying about that.

[mcmcsalot]

unvote

wow glad scotty is town. Axxle and robz both have things that make them potential sk's and then have things that clear them.

[Robz888]

unvote

wow glad scotty is town. Axxle and robz both have things that make them potential sk's and then have things that clear them.

Okay, but talk to me about Axxle if you want to have any hope of us not lynching you whatsoever

[mcmcsalot]

for axle to be sk, he has to have chosen sk(may have tried to get conversion with slot 9) but used his bus driving at a weird time. Wait let me go back and look at when he used his bus driving

[mcmcsalot]

already on it

[scott_pilgrim]

Well, I guess, the only reason we actually have to think that someone tried to NK me is because Axxle said so. If he is the SK, he could just be lying about that.

Oh right, because he could have lied about when/how he used his bus driver shot.  Well would he have known to do that, it seems like maybe an unnecessary risk in case there's a tracker or something?

[Robz888]

Well, I guess, the only reason we actually have to think that someone tried to NK me is because Axxle said so. If he is the SK, he could just be lying about that.

Oh right, because he could have lied about when/how he used his bus driver shot.  Well would he have known to do that, it seems like maybe an unnecessary risk in case there's a tracker or something?

Tracker is in same slot as Jailkeeper, and ADK was Scum JK who died Day 1. The watcher died Night 1.

[scott_pilgrim]

Well, I guess, the only reason we actually have to think that someone tried to NK me is because Axxle said so. If he is the SK, he could just be lying about that.

Oh right, because he could have lied about when/how he used his bus driver shot.  Well would he have known to do that, it seems like maybe an unnecessary risk in case there's a tracker or something?

Tracker is in same slot as Jailkeeper, and ADK was Scum JK who died Day 1. The watcher died Night 1.

Okay, well I guess that makes it a reasonable play then.  I'm now back to like 60/40 mcmc/Axxle.

[Robz888]

The thing is, the only reason to bus ash on Night 2 was, ironically enough, to protect ash, who seemed very likely to be town cop. This is what town Axxle has claimed he did, and it makes sense.

I think there is little reason for SK Axxle to bus ashersky otherwise.

If he didn't use his shot at all, though, we might have expected some weird kills on subsequent nights. He could have bused mail-mi on the night I announced I was shooting mail-mi, and really really framed me. But perhaps that was not ultimately a good play, because he would be too obviously suspicious afterward?

[Axxle]

Well, I guess, the only reason we actually have to think that someone tried to NK me is because Axxle said so. If he is the SK, he could just be lying about that.

Oh right, because he could have lied about when/how he used his bus driver shot.  Well would he have known to do that, it seems like maybe an unnecessary risk in case there's a tracker or something?

Voltaire confirmed it when his neighborizer shot did nothing.

[mcmcsalot]

ScumAsh claims scum result on ScumXerxes
ScumXerxes claims busdriver who bus drove himself and ?Robz
?Axxle claims actual busdriver and hammer ScumXerxes

So at this point we assume Town!Ash

Scum ash was killed
Town Theorel was killed.

Axxle claims to have bus drove ?Robz and Town!Ash. This is the ?Robz that confirmed Scum!Xerxes claimed to have bus drove which means he tried to make him the lynch instead. This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Now I am actually seeing a great reason for sk!Axxle to have used his bus drive there.

vote:axxle

[Robz888]

Well, I guess, the only reason we actually have to think that someone tried to NK me is because Axxle said so. If he is the SK, he could just be lying about that.

Oh right, because he could have lied about when/how he used his bus driver shot.  Well would he have known to do that, it seems like maybe an unnecessary risk in case there's a tracker or something?

Voltaire confirmed it when his neighborizer shot did nothing.

Oh... thank goodness. Oh yes, that's right. Voltaire tried to neighborize me, I didn't get it, because it was redirected to ash who was dead.

[Robz888]

Axxle claims to have bus drove ?Robz and Town!Ash. This is the ?Robz that confirmed Scum!Xerxes claimed to have bus drove which means he tried to make him the lynch instead. This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

What did I confirm? What??

[Axxle]

This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Bullshit. There was very little reason to believe Robz was town and what confusion would it have caused?

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah mcmc I have no idea what you're talking about.

If SK!Axxle thinks it's good for him to "create confusion" by bus driving ash and Robz, then why would he tell us that he did it immediately after?

[mcmcsalot]

This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Bullshit. There was very little reason to believe Robz was town and what confusion would it have caused?

Ash had a damning result on Xerxes, Xerxes said he bus drove himself an Robz, meaning the result was on Robz. Then Xerxes flippped scum, no way scum tries to pass the lynch off on his partner, robz is at that time confirmed not mafia

[Robz888]

I had forgotten that Voltaire confirmed Axxle's use of his PR at that time. It's only legitimate use there was to save ash, which is only something a town Bus Driver would have done.

Okay, I am fine with mcmc being hammered now.

[Robz888]

This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Bullshit. There was very little reason to believe Robz was town and what confusion would it have caused?

Ash had a damning result on Xerxes, Xerxes said he bus drove himself an Robz, meaning the result was on Robz. Then Xerxes flippped scum, no way scum tries to pass the lynch off on his partner, robz is at that time confirmed not mafia

But the plan was for Xerxes to get caught anyway, because Xerxes claimed something he knew someone else had. So it didn't really matter who the person in my position was.

[mcmcsalot]

Yeah mcmc I have no idea what you're talking about.

If SK!Axxle thinks it's good for him to "create confusion" by bus driving ash and Robz, then why would he tell us that he did it immediately after?

You all need to reread that liitle time period starting with ash's claim of a result on Xerxes and ending with axxle saying e busdrove robz and ash the next day.

Its a short time period but it makes sense from an sk axxle point of view

[Axxle]

This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Bullshit. There was very little reason to believe Robz was town and what confusion would it have caused?

Ash had a damning result on Xerxes, Xerxes said he bus drove himself an Robz, meaning the result was on Robz. Then Xerxes flippped scum, no way scum tries to pass the lynch off on his partner, robz is at that time confirmed not mafia

It was a SUPER obvious lie. So easy to counter claim, and even if the counter claim never happened people would have lynched him anyway. WIFOM at best, there was no way Robz was getting lynched instead of him.

[mcmcsalot]

This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Bullshit. There was very little reason to believe Robz was town and what confusion would it have caused?

Ash had a damning result on Xerxes, Xerxes said he bus drove himself an Robz, meaning the result was on Robz. Then Xerxes flippped scum, no way scum tries to pass the lynch off on his partner, robz is at that time confirmed not mafia

But the plan was for Xerxes to get caught anyway, because Xerxes claimed something he knew someone else had. So it didn't really matter who the person in my position was.

BUT WE DIDNT KNOW THAT WHEN AXXLE BUS DROVE YOU AND ASH

[mcmcsalot]

This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Bullshit. There was very little reason to believe Robz was town and what confusion would it have caused?

Ash had a damning result on Xerxes, Xerxes said he bus drove himself an Robz, meaning the result was on Robz. Then Xerxes flippped scum, no way scum tries to pass the lynch off on his partner, robz is at that time confirmed not mafia

It was a SUPER obvious lie. So easy to counter claim, and even if the counter claim never happened people would have lynched him anyway. WIFOM at best, there was no way Robz was getting lynched instead of him.

But he didn't know he was going to get counterclaimed! Everyone is looking at this with the info we have now. At the time Xerxes had no idea the Busdriver had been taken, even better, had xerxes pushed the lynch onto robz, we would have said "Oh well, xerxes must have lied about being busdriver" and then lynch xerxes and think ash is town. Mafia plan works even better if they get a bonus lynch on town!Robz before xerxes goes down.

[Robz888]

What happened, from the perspective of an outside townie:

Ashersky faked a scum result on his actual scum partner, Xerxes. Xerxes made a fake effort of trying to blame Robz, an effort that was itended to fail because he knew his claim would be countered. Axxle did indeed counter. Xerxes was lynched.

Then, ash's plan went awry, because Axxle, thinking ash was town, tried to protect him. My alignment had no bearing on any of these events. Indeed, Voltaire I think sort of suspected me, didn't he say as much as his reason for Neighborizing me?

The neighborizing failed, which confirmed that Axxle used his shot, in a pro-town way that turned out even MORE pro-town by accident.

That's the narrative.

[Robz888]

This means robz and ash are at this point supposedly confirmed not mafia.

So why in the world does axxle do this bus drive, it works out greaat for us but should in effect should have caused mass confusion and destruction to town!Robz and town!Ash

Bullshit. There was very little reason to believe Robz was town and what confusion would it have caused?

Ash had a damning result on Xerxes, Xerxes said he bus drove himself an Robz, meaning the result was on Robz. Then Xerxes flippped scum, no way scum tries to pass the lynch off on his partner, robz is at that time confirmed not mafia

It was a SUPER obvious lie. So easy to counter claim, and even if the counter claim never happened people would have lynched him anyway. WIFOM at best, there was no way Robz was getting lynched instead of him.

But he didn't know he was going to get counterclaimed! Everyone is looking at this with the info we have now. At the time Xerxes had no idea the Busdriver had been taken, even better, had xerxes pushed the lynch onto robz, we would have said "Oh well, xerxes must have lied about being busdriver" and then lynch xerxes and think ash is town. Mafia plan works even better if they get a bonus lynch on town!Robz before xerxes goes down.

No, Xerxes obviously expected Bus Driver to counter claim him. I assume he actually went for Bus Driver and didn't get it. If there wasn't actually a Bus Driver, there was likely at least someone who he took a PR from that slot, and could pseudo counter. And then slot 9 could have finished off the counter. Maybe that was what ash was hoping for, out tons of people and also get town cred.

[mcmcsalot]

robz why does Xerxes know he is going to be counter-claimed?

[scott_pilgrim]

robz why does Xerxes know he is going to be counter-claimed?

I don't think this matters?  In fact, I think mafia's hope was that no one would counter-claim, Robz would get lynched first, then XP, and then ash would be a fake IC.

[Robz888]

robz why does Xerxes know he is going to be counter-claimed?

I don't think this matters?  In fact, I think mafia's hope was that no one would counter-claim, Robz would get lynched first, then XP, and then ash would be a fake IC.

Yeah, actually this is correct.

[Robz888]

Although they had to know a full counter or pseudo counter was likely. Actually, the worst case scenario for them was someone else straight up being the Bus Driver, because then they only outed one person.

[scott_pilgrim]

robz why does Xerxes know he is going to be counter-claimed?

I don't think this matters?  In fact, I think mafia's hope was that no one would counter-claim, Robz would get lynched first, then XP, and then ash would be a fake IC.

I mean I think Robz's explanation works too, I think they figured out that the plan would work in some way regardless of whether there was a counter claim.  So maybe they knew there would be a counter-claim, and then they out a PR, or maybe they didn't know and they just went for it because the alternative was fine too.

[mcmcsalot]

But listen to this,

Ashersky faked a scum result on his actual scum partner, Xerxes. Xerxes made an fake effort of trying to blame Robz, an effort that was itended to fail because he knew his claim would be countered. Axxle did indeed counter. Xerxes was lynched. an effort to get a town lynch before he goes down.

Then, ash's plan went awry, because Axxle, thinking ash was town, tried to protect him. But why does he try to protect ash and use you who AT THE TIME were practically confirmed not mafia. AT THE TIME we had no idea this whole thing was a mafia plan, all we know is that Town!Ash had a result on ScumXerxes who then tried to pass his lynch onto Robz. Noone knew Xerxes was "supposed" to get lynched that night which is when axxle used his bus drive

[mcmcsalot]

robz why does Xerxes know he is going to be counter-claimed?

I don't think this matters?  In fact, I think mafia's hope was that no one would counter-claim, Robz would get lynched first, then XP, and then ash would be a fake IC.

Yeah, actually this is correct.

THIS IS WHAT I SAID fuck you not listening to me robz

[Robz888]

Hey hey calm down. No, you're right about that, but it doesn't matter. It didn't make me town at the time.

[Robz888]

But listen to this,

Ashersky faked a scum result on his actual scum partner, Xerxes. Xerxes made an fake effort of trying to blame Robz, an effort that was itended to fail because he knew his claim would be countered. Axxle did indeed counter. Xerxes was lynched. an effort to get a town lynch before he goes down.

Then, ash's plan went awry, because Axxle, thinking ash was town, tried to protect him. But why does he try to protect ash and use you who AT THE TIME were practically confirmed not mafia. AT THE TIME we had no idea this whole thing was a mafia plan, all we know is that Town!Ash had a result on ScumXerxes who then tried to pass his lynch onto Robz. Noone knew Xerxes was "supposed" to get lynched that night which is when axxle used his bus drive

But because there WAS a Bus Driver, and it WASN'T Xerxes, I was NOT confirmed non-mafia. Voltaire said as much! I can prove it.

[Robz888]

I chose the number 8. I got the 5th draft slot. I chose Neighborizer, and got it. I wanted it for two reasons: 1. to keep it out of scum hands (nightmares from Robz using it in M30) 2. unlikely to really be chosen by anyone, and the setup seemed cool and I didn't want to be a VT.

On N1, I neighborized yuma (needed to fix his scumread on me, as the two of us once voted for each other in mylo for a town loss, he's a strong player, etc.). Obviously that did nothing. On N2, I targeted Robz (I had picked up on Slot 9 slips and thought him either a PR or scum. I was going to force him to claim to me privately under threat of IC-led lynch to try to sort it out). Nothing happened. As such, I can 99.9999% confirm Axxle's role and action on N2.

Now, can someone explain to me why Andrew looks fishy post-claim?

[mcmcsalot]

But listen to this,

Ashersky faked a scum result on his actual scum partner, Xerxes. Xerxes made an fake effort of trying to blame Robz, an effort that was itended to fail because he knew his claim would be countered. Axxle did indeed counter. Xerxes was lynched. an effort to get a town lynch before he goes down.

Then, ash's plan went awry, because Axxle, thinking ash was town, tried to protect him. But why does he try to protect ash and use you who AT THE TIME were practically confirmed not mafia. AT THE TIME we had no idea this whole thing was a mafia plan, all we know is that Town!Ash had a result on ScumXerxes who then tried to pass his lynch onto Robz. Noone knew Xerxes was "supposed" to get lynched that night which is when axxle used his bus drive

But because there WAS a Bus Driver, and it WASN'T Xerxes, I was NOT confirmed non-mafia. Voltaire said as much! I can prove it.

But Xerxes didn't know that he would be countered when he tried to push the lynch off on you. Stop looking at it with post info. Take it step by step, with the info that Xerxes had he didnt know everything would fall apart so NO WAY Xerxes tries to push his lynch off a partner. Just cuz votaire had a hunch you might have been scum or a pr, doesn't mean you were not confirmed town.

[scott_pilgrim]

I didn't find Axxle saying Robz was scummy before D3, but here's his response when Robz asks why he bused him:

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

Oh, and thanks for trying to get me killed. Not! Why me?

You were the first name I thought of when trying to think of who isn't obv town this game. Still very vla so didn't have a lot of time to submit the night action.

I don't think anyone thought at the time "Robz is definitely not mafia".  Even if we should have (which I don't think is the case), no one did, so I don't think the discussion is really relevant.  (Though maybe it just didn't get brought up because everyone was thinking about ash and XP's and Axxle's claims?)

I think Axxle's play was completely reasonable as town.

[mcmcsalot]

I didn't find Axxle saying Robz was scummy before D3, but here's his response when Robz asks why he bused him:

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

Oh, and thanks for trying to get me killed. Not! Why me?

You were the first name I thought of when trying to think of who isn't obv town this game. Still very vla so didn't have a lot of time to submit the night action.

I don't think anyone thought at the time "Robz is definitely not mafia".  Even if we should have (which I don't think is the case), no one did, so I don't think the discussion is really relevant.  (Though maybe it just didn't get brought up because everyone was thinking about ash and XP's and Axxle's claims?)

I think Axxle's play was completely reasonable as town.

I'm not saying it wasn't reasonable as town. But I think robz is town, I think scott is town. I know I am town and need to provide evidence that axxle is sk and not me

[Robz888]

Yeah, I mean, you might be right mcmc, I guess, that people should have thought I was town, maybe, but no one did, including someone we know to be extremely competent and absolutely town (Voltaire). So I also find Axxle's play reasonable, given all that.

[Robz888]

I didn't find Axxle saying Robz was scummy before D3, but here's his response when Robz asks why he bused him:

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

Oh, and thanks for trying to get me killed. Not! Why me?

You were the first name I thought of when trying to think of who isn't obv town this game. Still very vla so didn't have a lot of time to submit the night action.

I don't think anyone thought at the time "Robz is definitely not mafia".  Even if we should have (which I don't think is the case), no one did, so I don't think the discussion is really relevant.  (Though maybe it just didn't get brought up because everyone was thinking about ash and XP's and Axxle's claims?)

I think Axxle's play was completely reasonable as town.

I'm not saying it wasn't reasonable as town. But I think robz is town, I think scott is town. I know I am town and need to provide evidence that axxle is sk and not me

That is true. I'm very sorry for you if you are town, it's an impossible position for you, and so many accidental factors (even anti-SK choices be the SK) making Axxle look like town. But that seems to be the 10% of the time answer. 90% of the time, it's you, in this case.

[scott_pilgrim]

I didn't find Axxle saying Robz was scummy before D3, but here's his response when Robz asks why he bused him:

I bus drove robz and ash last night to try save ash. Welp.

Oh, and thanks for trying to get me killed. Not! Why me?

You were the first name I thought of when trying to think of who isn't obv town this game. Still very vla so didn't have a lot of time to submit the night action.

I don't think anyone thought at the time "Robz is definitely not mafia".  Even if we should have (which I don't think is the case), no one did, so I don't think the discussion is really relevant.  (Though maybe it just didn't get brought up because everyone was thinking about ash and XP's and Axxle's claims?)

I think Axxle's play was completely reasonable as town.

I'm not saying it wasn't reasonable as town. But I think robz is town, I think scott is town. I know I am town and need to provide evidence that axxle is sk and not me

Yeah, I mean you have to make a case on Axxle regardless of your alignment, but I'm just saying why I'm not convinced by the case.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'll be back online again in a few hours, if by that point no one has convinced me otherwise, I'll hammer.

[mcmcsalot]

i have 3 finals tomorow, robz are you gonna change your mind?

[Robz888]

i have 3 finals tomorow, robz are you gonna change your mind?

No, sorry. It's just overwhelming.

[mcmcsalot]

i have 3 finals tomorow, robz are you gonna change your mind?

No, sorry. It's just overwhelming.

kk scott lynch me, town lost

[scott_pilgrim]

vote: mcmcsalot

[Axxle]

[Robz888]

OKay.... did we win? Are you scum, Axxle?

[Robz888]

I feel like we won?

[Axxle]

[AndrewisFTTW]

Boooooo!!!!! Hisss!!!

[Robz888]

It was Axxle?

[Robz888]

Is this what that means?

[Axxle]

Is this what that means?

You're not the SK, right? So I won at least. 

[Axxle]

Boooooo!!!!! Hisss!!!

[Robz888]

I'm not the SK, and I don't understand what Axxle is saying...? Oh, he's saying he knows he won because it wasn't Scotty for sure? Meaning he's town and we were right? Andrew, what? What do you know/??

[Robz888]

HELP

[scott_pilgrim]

We know that Axxle won regardless of his alignment (assuming the SK was not me or Robz).  We also know mcmc lost regardless of his alignment.  Me and Robz still don't know whether we have won.

[Robz888]

I wish Axxle would just come out with it.

[Axxle]

I wish Axxle would just come out with it.

I know.

[Robz888]

Speccies? Knowledgeable speccies, please flood the thread with your knowledge.

[Robz888]

I'm going to call my brother on the phone. The hammer definitely happened, right?

[Axxle]

I'm going to call my brother on the phone. The hammer definitely happened, right?

Aww, don't bother him studying!

I'm the SK! 

[mail-mi]

I'm going to call my brother on the phone. The hammer definitely happened, right?

Aww, don't bother him studying!

I'm the SK! 

[Robz888]

[Axxle]

Why would *I* ever go for conversion? BORING~!

[Robz888]

But it doesn't make any sense...

[Voltaire]

Most speccies thought it was mcmc right up until the end, when mcmc's defense switched some people thinking axxle. It wasn't obvious either way.

[Voltaire]

But it doesn't make any sense...

Yes it does, he won!

Your assumption that everyone would play like you was one of the reasons I found you scummy. Which I was totally wrong about, and I'm sorry.

[ehunt]

Most speccies thought it was mcmc right up until the end, when mcmc's defense switched some people thinking axxle. It wasn't obvious either way.

There were two spec votes on axxle

[Robz888]

But it doesn't make any sense...

Yes it does, he won!

Your assumption that everyone would play like you was one of the reasons I found you scummy. Which I was totally wrong about, and I'm sorry.

No, not that he would go for conversion, that he would use Bus Driver to protect a seemingly town ashersky.

[Axxle]

But it doesn't make any sense...

Yes it does, he won!

Your assumption that everyone would play like you was one of the reasons I found you scummy. Which I was totally wrong about, and I'm sorry.

No, not that he would go for conversion, that he would use Bus Driver to protect a seemingly town ashersky.

I killed ashersky.

[Voltaire]

Most speccies thought it was mcmc right up until the end, when mcmc's defense switched some people thinking axxle. It wasn't obvious either way.

There were two spec votes on axxle

And yuma still thought it was mcmc, as did I right until the end.

[Robz888]

But it doesn't make any sense...

Yes it does, he won!

Your assumption that everyone would play like you was one of the reasons I found you scummy. Which I was totally wrong about, and I'm sorry.

No, not that he would go for conversion, that he would use Bus Driver to protect a seemingly town ashersky.

I killed ashersky.

But who did you bus drive?

[Voltaire]

No, not that he would go for conversion, that he would use Bus Driver to protect a seemingly town ashersky.

If ash had been town, he was only a mafia cop. Would make total sense to gain to attempt for mega-town cred with that.

sudgy was the only person who could have cop'd axxle.

[Axxle]

But who did you bus drive?

I told the truth. I bus drove you and ash, and submitted a kill on you.

[Robz888]

But who did you bus drive?

I told the truth. I bus drove you and ash, and submitted a kill on you.

Well, that would produce this result, sure.

[Robz888]

Speccy qt please?

[Voltaire]

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/dxPq8qSH8qD3Z

[Voltaire]

Also it does look like I summarized incorrectly, looks like only yuma and I thought mcmc?

[Axxle]

No, not that he would go for conversion, that he would use Bus Driver to protect a seemingly town ashersky.

If ash had been town, he was only a mafia cop. Would make total sense to gain to attempt for mega-town cred with that.

sudgy was the only person who could have cop'd axxle.

Ash didn't actually claim cop, I was slightly worried he was a tracker, I wanted the super town cred, *and* if ash really was a mafia cop I wanted to give mafia more survivability since I wanted scumhunting focused there.

[Robz888]

No, not that he would go for conversion, that he would use Bus Driver to protect a seemingly town ashersky.

If ash had been town, he was only a mafia cop. Would make total sense to gain to attempt for mega-town cred with that.

sudgy was the only person who could have cop'd axxle.

Ash didn't actually claim cop, I was slightly worried he was a tracker, I wanted the super town cred, *and* if ash really was a mafia cop I wanted to give mafia more survivability since I wanted scumhunting focused there.

And then ash was scum and you were golden.

[Robz888]

I don't think it would have been right to lynch Axxle though. The evidence really did say otherwise. Even looking it now, the less plausible thing happened.

[Voltaire]

I have to say, this was easily my favorite game in a long, long, long time. I love this setup. I also like that it gave us a SK win, even though obviously I would have preferred to win.

[Voltaire]

Ignoring absolutely everything but playstyle, lynch Axxle. For meta, lynch Robz. For information known about the setup, lynch mcmc/axxle?

[Axxle]

Axxle just hit my top scumread. Hammered and then gave a scumread on joth for not unvoting (post-hammer)

The only thing I immediately regretted. I'm surprised more people didn't catch it.

[Axxle]

SK QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/fHD2pePmQanAi

[Robz888]

I'm reading the speccies, they are saying people pushing me (joth and Axxle at that point) are scummy. Since everyone is always pushing for me, I never pick up on that as a scumtell.

[Robz888]

Still reading speccy. Thank you for the love, yuma. It means a lot to me.

[Axxle]

I'm reading the speccies, they are saying people pushing me (joth and Axxle at that point) are scummy. Since everyone is always pushing for me, I never pick up on that as a scumtell.

Speccies had a big advantage as they knew that ash didn't shoot you, and thus you couldn't shoot yourself.

[ashersky]

Great win Axxle.

I'm sad I didn't get to play out my uber-gambit.

Mafia QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/MY2efRAxaXKf

[Robz888]

I'm reading the speccies, they are saying people pushing me (joth and Axxle at that point) are scummy. Since everyone is always pushing for me, I never pick up on that as a scumtell.

Speccies had a big advantage as they knew that ash didn't shoot you, and thus you couldn't shoot yourself.

My suspicion was mostly that ash DID shoot me and the SK shot theorel. Your bus driving, which did the opposite of a theoretical town Axxle's goal but in practiced worked out even better for a town Axxle, just always had me coming back to you as town.

[Voltaire]

I'm sad I didn't get to play out my uber-gambit.

I, too, wish this could have happened for longer.

[ashersky]

I'm sad I didn't get to play out my uber-gambit.

I, too, wish this could have happened for longer.

Robz at the end kept making it sound like I made up a result on XP.  I have the result in my PM.  I was really the Mafia Cop, so I wasn't fake claiming.  I didn't make it up, I caught him!

But then Axxle shot me.  I actually softclaimed mafia cop specifically so Axxle wouldn't shoot me.  No idea why he would want to protect mafia.

[ashersky]

Also, really, go sign up for M43 now.

[Axxle]

I'm sad I didn't get to play out my uber-gambit.

I, too, wish this could have happened for longer.

Robz at the end kept making it sound like I made up a result on XP.  I have the result in my PM.  I was really the Mafia Cop, so I wasn't fake claiming.  I didn't make it up, I caught him!

But then Axxle shot me.  I actually softclaimed mafia cop specifically so Axxle wouldn't shoot me.  No idea why he would want to protect mafia.

I felt like there were way too many obvtown players that I had to work with mafia to weed them out.

[Robz888]

Oh, another thing, which I never vocalized, which I thought pointed away from Axxle being SK... I had suspected Voltaire's "LOL, I should have claimed 1-shot BP" thing was a play, and he really WAS 1-shot BP. Or at least, I thought the SK had to suspect that that was going on, and would shoot sudgy instead.

Axxle is a big mafia vet who plays sometimes on this other forum, he is a very savvy player and doesn't overlook things. I thought he was most likely to pick up on this and do the same thing and not shoot Voltaire right away, whereas mcmc and Scott were more likely not to think of that.

So when the kill was Voltaire, not sudgy, Axxle got yet another "not SK" point. It seems he likes to play far riskier than I would have anticipated, however. Well, it paid off, big time.

[Axxle]

Also, really, go sign up for M43 now.

I want to play a regular setup

[Voltaire]

I am so very, very, very, very sad I failed to realize ideal play was to lie as town. Just the biggest regret ever. 

[ashersky]

Also, really, go sign up for M43 now.

I want to play a regular setup

I think asher9++ is coming up next in the normal queue.

But really, M43 is not crazy, like RMM or anything.  It's fun, not too serious.

[Axxle]

Oh, another thing, which I never vocalized, which I thought pointed away from Axxle being SK... I had suspected Voltaire's "LOL, I should have claimed 1-shot BP" thing was a play, and he really WAS 1-shot BP. Or at least, I thought the SK had to suspect that that was going on, and would shoot sudgy instead.

Axxle is a big mafia vet who plays sometimes on this other forum, he is a very savvy player and doesn't overlook things. I thought he was most likely to pick up on this and do the same thing and not shoot Voltaire right away, whereas mcmc and Scott were more likely not to think of that.

So when the kill was Voltaire, not sudgy, Axxle got yet another "not SK" point. It seems he likes to play far riskier than I would have anticipated, however. Well, it paid off, big time.

He confirmed me using my jailkeeper shot. He wasn't lying.

[Axxle]

Oh, another thing, which I never vocalized, which I thought pointed away from Axxle being SK... I had suspected Voltaire's "LOL, I should have claimed 1-shot BP" thing was a play, and he really WAS 1-shot BP. Or at least, I thought the SK had to suspect that that was going on, and would shoot sudgy instead.

Axxle is a big mafia vet who plays sometimes on this other forum, he is a very savvy player and doesn't overlook things. I thought he was most likely to pick up on this and do the same thing and not shoot Voltaire right away, whereas mcmc and Scott were more likely not to think of that.

So when the kill was Voltaire, not sudgy, Axxle got yet another "not SK" point. It seems he likes to play far riskier than I would have anticipated, however. Well, it paid off, big time.

He confirmed me using my jailkeeper shot. He wasn't lying.

*busdriver

[Axxle]

Also, really, go sign up for M43 now.

I want to play a regular setup

I think asher9++ is coming up next in the normal queue.

But really, M43 is not crazy, like RMM or anything.  It's fun, not too serious.

I want to play a serious setup

[Robz888]

Oh, another thing, which I never vocalized, which I thought pointed away from Axxle being SK... I had suspected Voltaire's "LOL, I should have claimed 1-shot BP" thing was a play, and he really WAS 1-shot BP. Or at least, I thought the SK had to suspect that that was going on, and would shoot sudgy instead.

Axxle is a big mafia vet who plays sometimes on this other forum, he is a very savvy player and doesn't overlook things. I thought he was most likely to pick up on this and do the same thing and not shoot Voltaire right away, whereas mcmc and Scott were more likely not to think of that.

So when the kill was Voltaire, not sudgy, Axxle got yet another "not SK" point. It seems he likes to play far riskier than I would have anticipated, however. Well, it paid off, big time.

He confirmed me using my jailkeeper shot. He wasn't lying.

Yeah, I had forgotten about that until the very end of the game when it got brought up again.

[Axxle]

I'm sad I didn't get to play out my uber-gambit.

I, too, wish this could have happened for longer.

It would have been beautiful, sorry ash.

[ashersky]

I'm sad I didn't get to play out my uber-gambit.

I, too, wish this could have happened for longer.

It would have been beautiful, sorry ash.

You should have kept me around for lylo.  It could have been you, me, and Robz, and we could have lynched Robz for the shared victory.

I was so ready for the "I'm an IC now right Robzlol" statement the following day.

[Robz888]

You should have kept me around for lylo.  It could have been you, me, and Robz, and we could have lynched Robz for the shared victory.

I was so ready for the "I'm an IC now right Robzlol" statement the following day.

Yeah yeah, get in line behind everyone else who wants to lynch me.

[yuma]

Good game to Axxle.... Killing me ended up being a pretty smart move.

I allowed myself to get talked into suspecting mcmc and probably would have voted mcmc as well if I were still alive, but like I said was very wary of Axxle playing the perfect game. I never thought he would try for a SK conversion slot. Although mcmc's points (as well as his talk about what number he picked--that might need to be addressed before this game is run again as it has the potential to semi-break the setup) that he brought up had me kinda 50/50. I think those should have been more fully analyzed before the hammer.

[Voltaire]

I was obviously very wrong about you, sorry Robz.

[ashersky]

The scumteam of ADK, XP, and ashersky was interesting.  Diverse playstyles, unfortunately a bit too much lurking and too easily suspected.

Thanks to XP for wanting to try my gambit.

[Robz888]

Good game to Axxle.... Killing me ended up being a pretty smart move.

I allowed myself to get talked into suspecting mcmc and probably would have voted mcmc as well if I were still alive, but like I said was very wary of Axxle playing the perfect game. I never thought he would try for a SK conversion slot. Although mcmc's points (as well as his talk about what number he picked--that might need to be addressed before this game is run again as it has the potential to semi-break the setup) that he brought up had me kinda 50/50. I think those should have been more fully analyzed before the hammer.

The conversion argument wasn't motivating me in any one direction or another, by the end of the game, since it seemed like I was the only person thinking that way. I do think it's the move most likely to result in a victory for the person who rolls SK, particularly with first draft position.

[EFHW]

Two spots left in Innovation II.  One if ashersky is hammering.

[scott_pilgrim]

Something that I think should be pointed out is that lynchproof is really, really bad for town.  Like, we might have won if mail-mi had just been a VT (not trying to put the blame on him, since Axxle played a fantastic game anyway and in the end it was still me and Robz who mislynched).  If town lynches you, the worst thing you can do is require them to spend the next day lynching you again, just to find out you are town; it basically just gives scum a free NK.  In other words, it lets scum pick who to kill instead of town (though I guess it also gives town an extra round of night actions too).  If town wants to lynch you, it's because they want to find out your alignment, and they're going to do it regardless; making it take an extra day only hurts town.  So I think town should never ever take lynchproof, and if someone does turn out to be lynchproof (by choice), everyone should assume that person is scum.

[EFHW]

Oh, I see the game hasn't officially been called.  Back in a moment with the final mod post.

[mail-mi]

Something that I think should be pointed out is that lynchproof is really, really bad for town.  Like, we might have won if mail-mi had just been a VT (not trying to put the blame on him, since Axxle played a fantastic game anyway and in the end it was still me and Robz who mislynched).  If town lynches you, the worst thing you can do is require them to spend the next day lynching you again, just to find out you are town; it basically just gives scum a free NK.  In other words, it lets scum pick who to kill instead of town (though I guess it also gives town an extra round of night actions too).  If town wants to lynch you, it's because they want to find out your alignment, and they're going to do it regardless; making it take an extra day only hurts town.  So I think town should never ever take lynchproof, and if someone does turn out to be lynchproof (by choice), everyone should assume that person is scum.

sheepish grin....

[EFHW]

"This is our last chance!", exclaimed Plato. "We need to find this person who tries to put an end to our ancient profession now, or all the thousands of years of seeking the truth will be lost."

"What about this woman, Butler?", asked Zizek. "She's quite the feminist, isn't she? And all victims of this slaughter have been male."

"It's not my fault that I was the only woman invited to this conference", complained Butler.

"You are right", agreed Hegel. "It must be the woman."

And so their final choice was made. Plato held up his gun, pointed it at Butler and fired the last remaining bullet. It hit Butler right in the heart. For a moment she stumbled, coughing, the she fell.

Final Day 5 Vote Count

mcmcsalot (1): Robz888, Axxle, scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (1): mcmcsalot

With 4 alive, it took 3 to lynch

mcmcsalot has been lynched. He was Judith Butler, the Vanilla Townie.

"It's like I thought", said Zizek, a trace of triumph in his voice. "Not only are you weak, you are also stupid."

"What...", began Plato. Then he realized. Quietly, he spoke: "You are not truly Zizek, are you? You are our Nemesis. You are Friedrich Nietzsche."

"Took you long enough to realize", said Nietzsche with a smirk. "Now how do you want to die? Do you want to follow your teacher, and drink from a cup of hemlock? I'll grant you that honor."

"Honor? You talk of honor? You have no honor in you, nor morality!", exclaimed Hegel.

"You still don't understand, do you? There is no honor. There is no morality. There is only power, those who are strong enough to seek that power, and those who are not. You are weak creatures, blocking the way for the arrival of the Übermensch. But no longer. Finally, my philosophy has prevailed!"

Robz888 has been endgamed. He was Plato, the Town-aligned Night 3 Vigilante.

scott_pilgrim has been endgamed. He was Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, the Vanilla Townie.

Axxle, who is Friedrich Nietzsche, the 1-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer/Bus Driver, WINS THE GAME!

[Axxle]

I have long awaited the Übermensch, only to find that I am he.

[Robz888]

Something that I think should be pointed out is that lynchproof is really, really bad for town.  Like, we might have won if mail-mi had just been a VT (not trying to put the blame on him, since Axxle played a fantastic game anyway and in the end it was still me and Robz who mislynched).  If town lynches you, the worst thing you can do is require them to spend the next day lynching you again, just to find out you are town; it basically just gives scum a free NK.  In other words, it lets scum pick who to kill instead of town (though I guess it also gives town an extra round of night actions too).  If town wants to lynch you, it's because they want to find out your alignment, and they're going to do it regardless; making it take an extra day only hurts town.  So I think town should never ever take lynchproof, and if someone does turn out to be lynchproof (by choice), everyone should assume that person is scum.

Complete agreement.

[jotheonah]

Good game everybody. I was pretty sure there at the end it was not mcmc, but had I been alive, I certainly wouldn't have voted Axxle. I might have pushed Robz even harder.

Here is the biggest lesson as far as I'm concerned, though it's easy enough for scum to game: If something feels too easy, it probably is.

[theorel]

Hey, I actually had pretty good reads this game, outside of day1, and even there I wasn't way off, just never found ADKs lurking sufficiently scummy.  That's always a nice thing to have happen, even if I lose...and even if some of those reads are based on outside information.

[ashersky]

Two spots left in Innovation II.  One if ashersky is hammering.

I might.  You haven't even signed up for Monsters U, which takes a huge piece of your original game.

[mcmcsalot]

Hurray it's over, I wish Scott had just hammered me, realizing it was axxle gave me hope of winning again which stunk because I knew it wouldn't happen. So let me reiterate I would have killed robz hands down as sk, you just lynch me everytime.

[mcmcsalot]

Hurray it's over, I wish Scott had just hammered me, realizing it was axxle gave me hope of winning again which stunk because I knew it wouldn't happen. So let me reiterate I would have killed robz hands down as sk, you just lynch me everytime.

Reasonably enough, usually it is based on things that aren't really concrete so it's not like omg your dumb it's more of I believe our rl relationship prevents you from fully being open to what I have to say, again not in a negative way just like the ability to visualize me and my thought process from either alignment makes my arguments less effective on you.

[jotheonah]

Other lesson is be careful about clearing people!

[Axxle]

Hurray it's over, I wish Scott had just hammered me, realizing it was axxle gave me hope of winning again which stunk because I knew it wouldn't happen. So let me reiterate I would have killed robz hands down as sk, you just lynch me everytime.

That's one of the biggest reasons why I kept him alive

[Teproc]

Congrats Axxle !

I find it very funny that this game ended up being a remake of Adventure Time with Axxle winning this time.

Robz, I don't think anyone is arguing against conversion from a stric win% standpoint, but I would much prefer get a unique experience and get to be SK. I was actually wondering why the conversion roles even existed when first looking at the setup, so there you go.

[Teproc]

Suggestion for future games : always give a QT to Axxle, regardless of role and alignment.

Pretty funny that the two people Axxle was worried about in his first SK reads post got killed night 1.

Reading the scum QT : ash, do you still feel the setup in unfair for scum ?

[faust]

Even though they have been posted already, here are the collected QTs of this game:

Mod QT
Speccy QT
Serial Killer QT
Naturalist QT

[faust]

My thoughts on the game, and on my first modding experience:

- It was really fun, and I'd like to do it again. Watching the game develop and knowing everything is sure a whole new experience. Thanks to EFHW for helping out in times of need; it's unfortunate that I was mostly asleep when the main action went down.

- ashersky's gambit here was very interesting as well. I think it might have worked if town found the SK quicker. I was a little sad that he died so soon.

- Axxle played a magnificent game, and obviously should be awarded MVP. I recommend reading his QT to everyone. It is both insightful and funny.

- the setup worked fine, I think. It was really unfortunate that the mafia lost their strongest role on D1, but in general I don't think this setup is unfair towards scum.

[Axxle]

Thanks for modding faust! I know it was a bit difficult being on a different time zone but you did great.

[Voltaire]

Yes, A+ to faust for a wonderful first-time mod.

[ashersky]

Reading the scum QT : ash, do you still feel the setup in unfair for scum ?

After the fix, it was no less fair than the original.  I think mafia need the safe claims as part of their knowledge.

The addition of 11 possible roles over the original makes it harder for scum, for sure.  I think it may lean toward town due to that.

It is probably a breakable setup.  What would have happened if we had mass claimed D1?  Does Axxle claim bus driver?

[Eevee]

I didn't follow along, but winning as the SK is quite impressive. Congrats Axxle!

[Axxle]

I didn't follow along, but winning as the SK is quite impressive. Congrats Axxle!

Thanks!

Axxle could have chosen that slot based on his number guess, and then taken bus-driver as more interesting than ninja as SK. I buy it for sure.

I picked bus driver for verifiability, mass claiming in this setup is punishing for liars. If I couldn't verify I was a bus-driver or fruit vendor it'd look really suspicious. And bus driver is more powerful than fruit vendor, obv.

[chairs]

I didn't follow along, but winning as the SK is quite impressive. Congrats Axxle!

Thanks!

Axxle could have chosen that slot based on his number guess, and then taken bus-driver as more interesting than ninja as SK. I buy it for sure.

I picked bus driver for verifiability, mass claiming in this setup is punishing for liars. If I couldn't verify I was a bus-driver or fruit vendor it'd look really suspicious. And bus driver is more powerful than fruit vendor, obv.

Still, I pegged you in mylo :sun:

[mcmcsalot]

I think a mass-claim actually would have led to the same outcome. I think mass claim hurts town by letting mafia and sk know who to target, but it hurts mafia as well when certain night kills/actions don't make sense. Sk gets the huge benefit of knowing what to do to improve thei position and look towny.

Also I think it is run again everyone should break the draft by picking whatever number their signup number is.

[Teproc]

I think a mass-claim actually would have led to the same outcome. I think mass claim hurts town by letting mafia and sk know who to target, but it hurts mafia as well when certain night kills/actions don't make sense. Sk gets the huge benefit of knowing what to do to improve thei position and look towny.

Also I think it is run again everyone should break the draft by picking whatever number their signup number is.

I'm not interested in breaking setups, so I won't do it regardless of alignment.

[Voltaire]

I mean, that's something that theoretically would work but wouldn't you be just as likely to have town 1) not participate as you would 2) everyone but scum participate?

[mcmcsalot]

I mean, that's something that theoretically would work but wouldn't you be just as likely to have town 1) not participate as you would 2) everyone but scum participate?

Scum has to participate and eithe get the draft slot that correlates with their signup slot, or the don't cooperate and get the last 3 draft slots.

Oh never mind, that let's scum know who to shoot, it would have been good to do this time when it wasn't mentioned but wouldn't necessarily work in the future.

[EFHW]

I mean, that's something that theoretically would work but wouldn't you be just as likely to have town 1) not participate as you would 2) everyone but scum participate?

Scum has to participate and eithe get the draft slot that correlates with their signup slot, or the don't cooperate and get the last 3 draft slots.

Oh never mind, that let's scum know who to shoot, it would have been good to do this time when it wasn't mentioned but wouldn't necessarily work in the future.

people with high numbered signup slots would be at a disadvantage.

[Robz888]

Having gotten back into mafia recently, I started looking back over old games. This was the first one I re-read start to finish. What a game! Would highly recommend newer players reading it (try not to spoil yourselves if you can).

[LaLight]

Having gotten back into mafia recently, I started looking back over old games. This was the first one I re-read start to finish. What a game! Would highly recommend newer players reading it (try not to spoil yourselves if you can).

Wow, Axxle! I was sure it was you all the way down (cause you've recommended it for reading). Plot-twist
I do like the setup also, I'd play one.