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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« on: January 10, 2013, 02:24:09 am »
+5

Here's the video link:


The Best $3 Cards - Part 1/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#32 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 4.4% ▼3.3pp / Median: 3.2% ▼0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 8.6% =0
Highest Value(s): 48.4% (1x), 23.3% (1x), 22.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (24x)

Chancellor is without a doubt again the worst $3 card this year. It even lost over 3pp and has the second least devation in this list. It has only one high outlier and 24 last ranks.

Being in the Base Set, most players (like me) didn't got the use of Chancellor at first. Yes, it costs $3 like Silver and gives also 2 coins, but it costs an action for what? To put your deck into your discard pile? Why do I want to do that? You can get your recently bought great cards faster! Yeah, that sounds great. But those great cards are mostly terminals and then Chancellor becomes a dead card. I think it would be a better card if it wasn't terminal. So it only shines in rare scenarios like Stash or maybe Counting House and can be good in Potion games. But if you want to get your recently bought cards earlier, use cards that put these cards on top of your deck like Royal Seal, Watchtower or Armory.
#31 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 13.8% ▼2.2pp / Median: 9.7% ▼6.3pp / Standard Deviation: 12.5% ▼0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 58.1% (2x), 36.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (4x)

Another card from the base set, and it lost a rank comparing to last year. It got 4 last places and has still a pretty high consensus.

It is mostly worse than Silver as its only use is its +Buy. Sure, +Buy can be pretty important, especially in engine games, but still that makes it no power card as you still only buy it when there's no other card that provides that +Buy. You can use it very well for a Gardens rush, but beside of that, there's not really much to say about that simple card.
#30 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 15.6% ▲5.5pp / Median: 9.7% ▲5.7pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1% ▼6.1pp
Highest Value(s): 80.6% (1x), 77.4% (1x), 64.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (9x)

Develop climbed up another rank as it switched places with Woodcutter. It gained a lot of points, but there seems still to be a lot of disagreement about its placement. It has 9 last ranks on one side, but on the other side some really high ranks in the upper third.

A good trasher mostly has to be a good start buy. Develop can only trash one copper at a time without benefit. You get a Silver for a trashed Estate, which can be put on top of your deck. That's at least really nice. Later in the game you get 2 cards for trashing one. This is something you only want if there are a lot of really good cards in the supply and most important in a specific price range because you have to gain a card which cost exactly one more and one less than the trashed card. Those cases are rare, but when it is one of those cases, Develop can be pretty good. It's good with good $5s and $7s like developing a Gold into a King's Court and a Wharf putting both on top of the deck. In the end of the game you want victory cards. Developing a Silver in an Estate and a Silk Road can be really nice for example. But you have to put them on your deck, really nasty, so be sure to end the game this turn. So it often fails in being a good trasher, you have to see it as a gainer instead. That's something that makes it tricky to play. It's really good in engines with many power cards, but is otherwise often ignorable.
#29 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 19.1% ▼1.6pp / Median: 16.1% ▼1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 14.7% ▼0.2pp
Highest Value(s): 61.3% (1x), 60.0% (1x), 45.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.2% (4x), 0% (1x)

And there's already the third card from the base set with only one card left to come in this list. It lost one rank in comparism to last year. It got one last rank and two above average votes.

You must ask yourself: How many $3 or $4 cards do I want in my deck? With Gardens in the supply, you may answer "as many I can get". Silver, Gardens, Estates and more Workshops are all good cards. But in all other situations you want $5 cards and Gold. And in comparism to Ironworks where you get at least a benefit and which isn't terminal if you gain action cards, it's a "wasted" action. The only cards that you want as many you can get may be Tournament, Caravan, Conspirator and any Village + card drawer like Smithy. But for all you have to spend your action and you have to be sure there isn't another terminal action you want to play too.
#28 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 21.4% ▼8.6pp / Median: 22.6% ▼13.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8% ▼0.9pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 58.1% (1x), 56.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.3% (2x), 3.2% (1x), 0% (1x)

Great Hall went down one rank and lost a lot of points. It got last once and, wow, it even got first once. Beside that really big outlier, there were 2 more above average votes. Taking the unweighted ranking into account, it would have been one rank higher.

There is not much to say to Great Hall beside how difficult it is to rank. It's often a consolation prize over an Estate as it is 1 point that doesn't hurt your deck (as long as you don't draw it dead), so that's really nice. But it might even sort of hurt with Golem or Wandering Minstrel in your deck. You can buy it early if you have an additional buy and $3 left and don't need another Silver. It also supports Silk Road strategies nicely. You can even use Throne Room or King's Court with it for additional benefit if you're really desperate. It can enable Conspirator chains and other rare cases where another cantrip is useful. The best combo might be with Ironworks where you can pick it up and get a cantrip bonus. But it's never a card you use for your strategy, instead you buy it if you have $3 left and don't need more money, then you're glad to pick another VP. And you often buy Estates in the end game, Estates you will may never see in your hand. In those cases it doesn't even matter if you pick up a Great Hall or an Estate.
#27 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 23.1% ▲3.2pp / Median: 19.4% ▲3.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6% ▼1.6pp
Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 64.0% (1x), 54.8% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (4x)

Fortune Teller is one of the worst attacks in the game and the first attack of all lists so far. But it at least went up 2 ranks compared to last year. But it still has 4 votes for the last rank. Like said before it would have been one rank lower if we wouldn't weight this list.

In games with trashers you want your Estates in hand and get rid of them, especially with Lookout Fortune Teller is bad. If you've trashed them, Fortune Teller just cycles through your deck, so your opponent mostly profits from your attack. In Tournament and Tunnel games you help your opponent even more. And in all other occasions there are mostly cards that soft counter top-decked victory cards or get profit from them by discarding. If those cases all don't exist, Fortune Teller might be a good buy, but those cases are very rare too. It gets better in the end game, but in the end game mostly you don't waste your buy for a Fortune Teller. And in comparism to Rabble which can be very nasty, Fortune Teller doesn't even get more benefit if you play twice or more in one turn.
#26 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 27.5% ▼4.4pp / Median: 24.0% ▼8.0pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3% ▲1.2pp
Highest Value(s): 80.6% (1x), 76.7% (1x), 71.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.2% (6x), 0% (1x)

Smugglers stayed where it was, but lost a lot of points. It gained a little bit of consensus, but is still the card with the third highest deviation in this list. This shows the 8 above average votes. It is overrated by newer players because it would be one place higher in the unweighted ranking.

Why this high deviation? First, its strenth depends of the board. Second, with Smugglers the luck factor is high. If your opponent has bought a card which you don't want, it's a dead card, especially later in the game where he buys only Provinces. And with Smugglers in your deck, you have to commit to the strategy of your opponent and have a hard time getting better than him. Smuggle a Gold early or smuggle an additional Duchy (especially with Duke) in the late game is really nice, but with a supply with many terminals, you rather buy the good terminals and money instead of wasting your action for getting another Silver or another terminal you won't be able to play. But if there are many cantrips and you're going to build a neat engine, Smugglers can be a good buy. And if you're not going first you can compensate this disadvantage. King's Courting a Smugglers can also be very strong in a good running engine. We can say, Smugglers is very board-dependant and can be a very good buy on some boards, especially if you're not going first.
#25 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 28.8% ▼6.5pp / Median: 25.8% ▼10.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.3% ▼0.1pp
Highest Value(s): 64.5% (1x), 60.0% (1x), 58.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (4x)

Loan lost a rank and even more points than Smugglers. Its Median dropped more than 10pp! Its deviation on the other side pretty much stayed the same. It was voted 10 times above average and 4 times last. Like said before, it would be even one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.

You can trash without spending an action, that's always great. It also gives at least one coin which is no big deal, but is still better than Trade Route early. And you don't need to trash a card from your hand, so you have still 4 cards in your hand you can play. Seems great so far, right? But this is also a problem: That involves a luck factor as it may find every time your only Silver in your deck which you even can't play in your next turn (and may discard all your good power terminals at the same time). Also it's limited to treasure cards and therefore basically to Copper. So it has advantages and disadvantages and some may evaluate the advantages higher while others seem to do it vice versa. Masquerade / Loan is better than Masquerade / Silver on #63 of the best openings.
#24 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 34.8% ▼2.2pp / Median: 32.3% ▼3.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0% ▼0.9
Highest Value(s): 80.0% (1x), 71.0% (1x), 64.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.5% (2x), 0% (1x)

We make a bigger gap of 6pp and come to the Medium level cards where 3 cards are very close together. The first one is Wishing Well. It lost even 2 ranks, but not so much points. It was voted 7 times above average and got one last rank.

Wishing Well is both a high skill and a high luck-dependent card. How is that possible? First, it's a cantrip, so it rarely hurts. But if you don't guess correctly it does you no good and you rather buy a Silver. One problem is that you have to guess the second card, so that cards like Spy, Lookout that seem to synergize don't work. But with cards like Apothecary or Cartographer it works really well. Then it can be a guaranteed cheap Laboratory. In Colony games where you don't want to have many Silvers and especially when your money average is higher than $2, Wishing Well is a good choice. And in some decks you only buy a few different cards, so you can maximize your probability. And if you're really good with card counting, this is really a good card if there are few cards left in your draw pile. It's also a very good counter against Ghost Ship. Young Witch / Wishing Well is even better than Young Witch / Silver on #93 ▲27 of the best openings.
#23 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 34.9% ▼0.7pp / Median: 35.5% ▼0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.1% ▼3.6pp
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 80.0% (1x), 80.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 9.7% (3x), 4.0% (1x)

There's a gap of only 0.1pp until the next card. Trade Route is on the same rank as last year and has also a similar rating. But it lost a lot of consensus. It has on one side 13 above average votes (one voted it even on the second place) and some really low votes. But it's the first card with no last place so far. In the unweighted ranking it would have been one rank higher.

It's not a very good trasher as an opening buy as you don't get enough benefit until the end of the game unless you're building an engine with low cost cards and you desperately need the trashing or the +buy. It's better if there are additional victory cards in the supply, especially action/victory cards like Island or Nobles that get bought earlier, but still, as a trasher it's no good opening buy. Buying green cards earlier just to get more benefit is rarely a good decision as your opponent may buy Trade Routes too and get the same benefit without clogging up his own deck. Mostly you buy it if it's the only source of +Buy and you really need that +Buy and later in the game where you're going green and it's really a neck-and-neck-race, so Trade Routes are now worth $3, $4 or even more. Then they can be really powerful. The difference in strength through the game may be the reason for the disagreement in the votes.
#22 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 35.1% ▲1.6pp / Median: 32.3% ▲0.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.1% ▼0.5pp
Highest Value(s): 68.0% (2x), 67.7% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 12.9% (1x), 6.5% (2x)

And there's the best card of the 3 ones that are clumped together. Only 0.2pp more and there's Shanty Town. It's 3 ranks better than last year, but has only a slightly better rating. It was voted 11 times above average with a lot of them in the 60% range. In the unweighted ranking it would be below Trade Route.

Shanty Town is a very problematic village. If you want villages you have many terminals and want to build an engine. Shanty Town is bad as it only gives you +2 Actions and is actually a Necropolis. If you want the +2 Cards for a Big Money strategy, the +2 Actions are wasted. And if you have multiple Shanty Towns in hand and no terminals, it's even worse. The best use is to minimize bad draw luck, when you have many terminals, but have the bad luck to not draw them with your village. Then you have a second shot to draw them with your +2 Cards. And if you have 2 Shanty Towns and 1 terminal in hand, it's not bad after all. Play your first Shanty Town, then your terminal and then you can play the second one and hopefully draw more terminals. But the raw benefit is in this case the same as you would get out of a "normal" Village. And even if you play basically Big Money, Shanty Town serves like a Laboratory for you.

To Part 2
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 04:49:52 pm by Qvist »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 02:57:03 am »
0

I think Shanty Town is underrrated and Loan and Develop should switch places. I don't know. I'm not that big of a fan of Loan though.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 02:59:23 am »
0

I feel Wishing Well is underrated. Even when you guess right only 50% of the time, it's like a half Lab which isn't bad for $3.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2013, 03:20:23 am »
+1

I think Loan, Shanty town, Wishing well and especially fortune teller are underrated.

Loan : It's really not a so bad trasher, it cycle the deck quite well and can be very strong for treasureless deck. IMO loan is often better than lookout.

Shanty town : I think it's one of those "not well used" cards. Often the lab function helps.

Wishing well : it is a difficult card to use, so I somehow understand the ranking. I guess most people (like me) do not keep track of there deck...

Fortune teller : The attack hurts, somehow like a minion-for-the-next-turn because the opponent will only have 4 useful cards in his hand. And minion's attack is quite strong. FT is not the best card of the world but it should be ranked about 10 spots higher IMO.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2013, 05:06:00 am »
0


Wishing well : it is a difficult card to use, so I somehow understand the ranking. I guess most people (like me) do not keep track of there deck...


I am a sucker for Loan. Wishing Well works nicely with Scrying Pools. Wish for the lint if you have a Scrying Pool in hand, and wish for the Scrying Pool if you don't.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2013, 05:23:10 am »
0


Wishing well : it is a difficult card to use, so I somehow understand the ranking. I guess most people (like me) do not keep track of there deck...


I am a sucker for Loan. Wishing Well works nicely with Scrying Pools. Wish for the lint if you have a Scrying Pool in hand, and wish for the Scrying Pool if you don't.
Well, at the start you have a pretty uniform deck with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates, so you can guess right a pretty high percentage of the time. This way it functions like an early Shanty Town.
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Eevee

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 05:32:18 am »
0

Trade route is grossly overrated. So is lookout. I'd put workshop higher, but I just really like the card. Loan is maybe a tad underrated.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2013, 05:33:10 am »
0

Trade route is grossly overrated. So is lookout. I'd put workshop higher, but I just really like the card. Loan is maybe a tad underrated.

I agree on the Lookout part. You can only trash from 3 cards and late game you risk hitting something important.
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 05:45:29 am »
0

Trade route is grossly overrated. So is lookout. I'd put workshop higher, but I just really like the card. Loan is maybe a tad underrated.

I agree on the Lookout part. You can only trash from 3 cards and late game you risk hitting something important.

Lookout should have received a boost with Dark Ages. Having another action to spend after you drew the card (which you are too choose between the other two) for that Overgrown Estate or Rats is not bad at all. And you have a spare action to use Gravedigger if Lookout accidentally a Gold.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 05:48:14 am by ipofanes »
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 05:49:29 am »
0

Trade route is grossly overrated. So is lookout. I'd put workshop higher, but I just really like the card. Loan is maybe a tad underrated.

I agree on the Lookout part. You can only trash from 3 cards and late game you risk hitting something important.

Lookout should have received a boost with Dark Ages. Having another action to spend after you drew the card (which you are too choose between the other two) for that Overgrown Estate or Rats is not bad at all. And you have a spare action to use Gravedigger if Lookout accidentally a Gold.
Yeah, but I feel Dark Ages experience is lacking on a lot of players, including myself. it's hard enough to judge the DA cards, let alone re-judge the current cards based on DA.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 06:39:12 am »
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Also, I tend to think chancellor is a little bit better than woodcutter. Because :
1) Chancellor is not so bad, especially for the opening with cantrips (tournament) or money (quarry)...
2) There is very often a better source of +buy than woodcutter in the kingdom
3) Sometimes you simply don't need +buy and woodcutter is therefore a terminal silver.
4) I thought in the begining that woodcutter was good for alt vp, but not even.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 06:41:37 am by brokoli »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 07:20:45 am »
+1

Wow, I can't believe Lookout isn't in the bottom. I admit that I don't like the card so that probably owed partially to my low ranking, but it seems like it's tough to get use out of it. Most of the times I'd rather just buy silver.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2013, 07:21:05 am »
+4

*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2013, 08:04:30 am »
+2

*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1

Don't get me wrong, it's good that people have different opinions and if the opinion is genuine I'm more than happy for it to be included in the rankings.  But I think that anybody who is familiar enough with this forum to submit to the card rankings should have read enough random strategy threads, and absorbed enough through osmosis, to know that Great Hall is far from the best $3 card.  This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy.  I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2013, 08:08:02 am »
+1

*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1
Must have only played an Ironworks/Scout kind of board. :D
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2013, 08:08:51 am »
0

The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.

My only other complaint is that Smugglers is overrated, and should probably be closer to or even behind Workshop. The only time having a Smugglers is better than having a Workshop is when your opponent gains a $5 or $6 card that you actually want. If they gain a $0 to $4 card, you could have gotten it with Workshop while giving yourself more choice. Workshop is much better in divergent strategies and alt-VP. Not being able to choose which card to gain can really hurt, and too often Smugglers is a dead card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2013, 08:14:21 am »
+3

*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1

But it gives you points without clogging up your deck! Can't go wrong with that. There's a reason it's called Great Hall and not Meh Hall.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2013, 08:15:24 am »
0

*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1

Don't get me wrong, it's good that people have different opinions and if the opinion is genuine I'm more than happy for it to be included in the rankings.  But I think that anybody who is familiar enough with this forum to submit to the card rankings should have read enough random strategy threads, and absorbed enough through osmosis, to know that Great Hall is far from the best $3 card.  This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy.  I hope I'm wrong.

That's why the rankings are weighted. No worries.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2013, 08:16:14 am »
+1

The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.

I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2013, 08:18:26 am »
0

The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.

I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.

Yeah. The luck factor is high, but if you're on the lucky side, Black Market is big. If you haven't watched my latest Tournament match, go and watch it. BM won me one game there. I never had a luckier BM before AFAIR.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2013, 08:21:16 am »
0

My only other complaint is that Smugglers is overrated, and should probably be closer to or even behind Workshop. The only time having a Smugglers is better than having a Workshop is when your opponent gains a $5 or $6 card that you actually want. If they gain a $0 to $4 card, you could have gotten it with Workshop while giving yourself more choice. Workshop is much better in divergent strategies and alt-VP. Not being able to choose which card to gain can really hurt, and too often Smugglers is a dead card.

I disagree a little bit. On a board where Workshop is an option a mirror strategy is very likely in most cases. And if there are also some cards that you want costing more than $4, then Smugglers is often superior. Smugglers is also especially good when it comes to Duchy dancing. And Smugglers is amazing with Border Village. I should add that to the article or maybe next time.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2013, 08:37:12 am »
+4

This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy.  I hope I'm wrong.

It wasn't me with the Great Hall ranking. So I cannot say for sure. But my guess, based on my own experience, is that the ranking is sincere.

I only play in real life and I usually play with three players. I learn a lot from the discussions here and I am aware when my own rankings are strongly at odds with the consensus here (I ranked Smugglers very high). I sometimes feel some self-exerted pressures to conform to the consensus, which is obviously in a general sense better informed than my own take. But I try not to let the consensus sway me too much because, if we all did that, how would the consensus ever change?

I respect the consensus viewpoints. There have been many times when I had a different take and over time I came to see that the consensus take was better informed. But there are also cases when I just cannot see it and feel that I need to go my own way, knowing that what seems right to me may in reality be a foolish newbie take.

I have had very good experiences with Smugglers. People I respect say I am wrong. I acknowledge that I might be. Still, as of this moment, my sincere belief is that Smugglers is a better card than some smart people think it to be. For now, I think it is right for me to give Smugglers a higher-than-consensus rank.

Somebody out there may for some reason just have had some amazing experiences with Great Hall!

Rob
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2013, 08:41:00 am »
0

I'm sad that Develop didn't rise more than it did... there seems to have been a lot of discussion about its uses over the past several months, as well as lots of game reports where it was a great card. I know I buy it way more than I used to. I didn't fill out a ranking, but I would have probably put it above Great Hall and maybe above Fortune Teller.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 08:45:20 am »
+4

The problem with the consensus is that it keeps reasserting itself.

I mean, people see Ambassador and Masquerade on top of the list and think: Those must be powerful cards!
Now I'm not saying they aren't, but new players may see this and without doing any legwork of their own they will judge these cards based on previous judgments. Because they think these cards are so good, they keep buying them and playing with them, getting even better with them. On the other hand, they will rarely buy the bottom-feeders as clearly they must be no good, so they don't improve with them.

The next time they get to put in a vote, they choose almost the same cards at the same positions.
But this is inherent to voting for lists with previous results. In Holland we have an annual top 2000 best songs of all time list and every year the same song is at #1 (Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody).

I think the voters can think for themselves pretty well though and I'm not pointing any fingers, but there are some things that will inevitably happen with lists like these. We just have to remember this when we read the results.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 08:45:30 am »
0

I definitely think Loan should not be in the bottom third.  Yes, it's terrible for money.  Buttt, in any moneyless engine (ala Minion, Cantrip+Conspirator, etc.) it's THE premier trasher, because you will be able to keep your initial copper economy just long enough to buy your actions, and then once you have your new action economy... all your coppers are gone!  On some boards, I think it is better for trashing than Remake or Chapel just because you are still able to buy an engine piece on turns you use your loan.

Other than that... Shanty Town is overrated.  I had it third to last, and I think it might be worse than that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 08:51:01 am »
0

The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.

I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.

The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.

I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.

Yeah. The luck factor is high, but if you're on the lucky side, Black Market is big. If you haven't watched my latest Tournament match, go and watch it. BM won me one game there. I never had a luckier BM before AFAIR.

I think both of your reactions are a result of confirmation bias, where you're noticing the few, low-probability occasions when Black Market has high utility, and not taking into account enough all of the higher-probability, low-utility occasions. Sure, Black Market might win you a game every once in a while, but it's also quite possible that on average, playing Black Market on that board is worse than not playing it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 08:53:07 am »
0


The next time they get to put in a vote, they choose almost the same cards at the same positions.
But this is inherent to voting for lists with previous results. In Holland we have an annual top 2000 best songs of all time list and every year the same song is at #1 (Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody).


Ah, among elderly music lovers in the German South West it ranks second.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2013, 09:03:48 am »
0

This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy.  I hope I'm wrong.

I'm not sure what comment you were refering to, but you're wrong. The lists are weighted because a new player or one who "only plays for fun in his family" obviously judges cards differently than the #1 from the leaderboard. But as I comment on every card what would change if it would be unweighted you see it wouldn't change that much because we got so much submissions so that a #1 Great Hall hasn't a weight just because of the number of submissions alone. It's the wisdom of the masses.

The problem with the consensus is that it keeps reasserting itself.

I agree, sort of. But the last list already showed that especially the Hinterlands cards, like Oracle for example, significantly changed after the first list. So, this shows that the representation of the change in opinion on specific cards is very good. I think also that the next list will have more significant changes because we will see how Dark Ages changes the strength of each individual card not only of the general "landscape". I mean Ambassador is worse now with Shelters. Personally I'm not able to say how much this affects the general strength of Ambassador. That's why I ranked it similar to last year. But I think in half a year that will change. And I think we will also see that in the rankings.

Also, several high level players, I like to especially mention Rabid here, had submitted lists which are significantly different from the general opinion. This shows to me also that players put real effort in their lists and not only repeating the last year's lists. And basically all players did that. That's why the deviation is around 15-20% on the cards which is pretty high I think. If you compare this to the deviations of Chapel or Chancellor, you see the difference.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2013, 09:07:39 am »
+1

The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.

I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.

The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.

I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.

Yeah. The luck factor is high, but if you're on the lucky side, Black Market is big. If you haven't watched my latest Tournament match, go and watch it. BM won me one game there. I never had a luckier BM before AFAIR.

I think both of your reactions are a result of confirmation bias, where you're noticing the few, low-probability occasions when Black Market has high utility, and not taking into account enough all of the higher-probability, low-utility occasions. Sure, Black Market might win you a game every once in a while, but it's also quite possible that on average, playing Black Market on that board is worse than not playing it.

I don't like Black Market because of the luck involved. But, if the board is weak, BM is strong. If the board is strong, BM is weak. How much percentage of the boards are weak in your opinion? The percentage of this answer should somehow represent the percentage/rank of Black Market in this list.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2013, 09:13:57 am »
+2

*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1
Must have only played an Ironworks/Scout kind of board. :D

"Even Greater Hall"
+1 Card
+1 Action
1 VP
You may gain a Scout and put it on your deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 09:18:30 am »
0

This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy.  I hope I'm wrong.

I'm not sure what comment you were refering to, but you're wrong. The lists are weighted because a new player or one who "only plays for fun in his family" obviously judges cards differently than the #1 from the leaderboard. But as I comment on every card what would change if it would be unweighted you see it wouldn't change that much because we got so much submissions so that a #1 Great Hall hasn't a weight just because of the number of submissions alone. It's the wisdom of the masses.

He was responding to my comment where I questioned if the #1 ranking of Great Hall was a genuine vote from an inexperienced player, or a 'joke' vote from a better player.  All the weighting in the world doesn't help if someone with a reasonably high ranking starts playing silly buggers with their list.  I guess part of my confusion came from the fact that Great Hall is just not a very interesting card.  If a card is generally considered weak or average, but does something complicated or difficult to evaluate, like Black Market, Urchin or Tunnel, I could understand a newbie putting it out there at #1, but Great Hall is just such a bland card.  What would make someone look at it and say "Woah, p0wer!" and rank it #1?

Having thought about it some more though, and read other people's comments, I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and assume that someone out there just really likes Great Hall.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:20:00 am by Piemaster »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 09:21:26 am »
0

Of couse I cannot say if the vote was trolling or not, but it wasn't from a high level player.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 09:41:58 am »
0

Great Hall is just such a bland card.  What would make someone look at it and say "Woah, p0wer!" and rank it #1?

I agree with this comment.

Just as an intellectual challenge, though, I can try to explain the selection.

Great Hall is a cantrip and therefore cannot hurt you in any serious way. And it gives a Victory point. I have played many games that were decided by only one or two Victory points. So an argument can be made that picking up a Great Hall is a costless way of significantly increasing your chances of a win. There are few other cards that let you gain Victory points without hurting your hand (Harem is one that comes to mind). And it might be said that the best $3 card need not be a power card on the thinking that the true power cards are the $5 cards.

I am not personally persuaded of this argument. But I don't see it as being entirely crazy.

Rob
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2013, 10:17:02 am »
+3

I just looked through the list of this player who ranked it first and I'm pretty sure that this was a serious vote.
He's just a newer player, but that's fine. He'll probably learns a lot of the results of this list.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 11:31:08 am »
+1

I just looked through the list of this player who ranked it first and I'm pretty sure that this was a serious vote.
He's just a newer player, but that's fine. He'll probably learns a lot of the results of this list.

That's okay then.  Absolutely no problem with new players votes being used in the rankings.  After all, these lists are supposed to be a consensus of players' opinions, not some kind edict from on high determined by a small group of elite players in an ivory tower.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2013, 12:02:02 pm »
+1

Other than Chancellor at the bottom, this list bears at best a passing resemblance to mine, but ranking the worst cards is always tough. The sample size of games where they dominate is often small enough that you can't really get a good comparative opinion. A lot of it comes down to playstyle.

I personally have all the gainers (Workshop, Smugglers, Develop) 5-6 spots higher than they show up here, but that's probably because I tend to really enjoy low-trashing engines predicated on gaining a bunch of key cards to achieve the needed good card density. Shanty Town I like for similar reasons. If you trash heavily, it's worse than a regular Village, but if you don't have much trashing, then the +2 cards comes into play more and really helps you in the build-up phase.

Fortune Teller I have much higher, but it's hard to rate since it doesn't actually end up getting purchased that often. It's more of a card good for engines battling money decks. If you play with people who tend to play the same style as you, you may never buy it.

Loan tends to always be underrated, and I'm not sure why. It's trashing that doesn't cost an action...

And since I have all these cards rated much higher, something has to fall, so in my list, Wishing Well is bottom 5. It has its applications, like when you know what's on top of your deck, a lot of times it's unreliable at best. You need to have a bunch of the same card in your deck (like your starting Coppers, or a bunch of Wishing Wells) to even get a 30-40% conversion rate on the wish. This just doesn't seem like a great thing to build a strategy around to me. I'd rather take the gainers.

Black Market is also getting a lot of discussion for not having shown up yet, and I think it's a very interesting card in terms of how people feel about it. It depends heavily on the cycling power of your deck, since you have to play it a lot to find the good cards, then cycle around to play those cards enough to matter. So if you're going to play a game where you shuffle 4-5 times, it's terrible. But if you shuffle a lot, you can't really ignore it, since then you're just asking for your opponent to get ALL the good cards. Things that depend on number of shuffles have an interesting dynamic of who likes them. Beginning players don't know how to end the game fast enough, so they always shuffle a lot, and strong engine-builders can make a fast cycling deck on practically any board. Players with less engine-building experience, and players who focus on money-heavy rush styles tend to think it's terrible.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 12:31:39 pm »
0

I really like chancellor in Minion games. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 01:51:02 pm »
0

This list is okay. Intuitively, I feel like Wishing Well and Shanty Town should be better rankled, but for that to be so, what cards would be worse? Probably Lookout, which mistakenly didn't appear yet, for one thing. I would move Trade Route to a worse rank by a spot or two. Fortune Teller and Smugglers feel like they should be ahead of Loan... Loan is a last resort trasher. Other than those things, I guess I concur with this list.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 01:55:26 pm »
0

Smugglers continues to be drastically overrated.  Had I submitted a list, it would have been dead last for me yet again.  I feel like Black Market belongs in this tier, too, but I am no longer so confident of that- it has atrocious win rates on Council Room, but it can be so crucial in engine games.

Most of the other cards here feel like they should be higher... but what would take their place?  However, there are two cards I feel confident don't belong here.  I'd like to defend Loan, which is very strong whenever there are Colonies or a good source of non-Treasure income.  Even light trashing can be crucial, and light trashing that doesn't cost an action for only $3 deserves better than this.  Shanty Town is also a lot better: the pseudo-Lab ability is a lot more commonly useful, especially as a Turn 1/2 buy, than many people realize, and it works in both BM-esque and engine games.  (My opinion of its utility has certainly skyrocketed over time.)  It's probably still a slot or two below Village because there is the danger of anti-synergy... but only a slot or two.  It deserves the next tier up.

Chancellor, of course, also remains underrated, but not by enough to really matter.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 01:59:27 pm by chwhite »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2013, 01:56:55 pm »
0

Loan/Transmute is an actual thing in Colony games, by the way.  I've pulled it off multiple times.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2013, 01:58:01 pm »
0

Ranking the $3's I found hard because there aren't actually that many bad $3 cards. Other than the very best, most of them are the type of card which is going to be pretty useful sometimes, and not useful at all other times, but nothing (other than maybe chancellor?) in the counting house, sab extreme that you tend to see at the $5 level.

I think I have a general agreement with the order given here. My biggest miss is probably fortune teller, which is criminally underrated still for reasons I don't understand. The attack hurts when played consistently. A lot. Now because it's terminal and doesn't offer +card (like rabble) it needs a good bit of support to play consistently, which is why it's probably sitting around the middle of the pack for me, but it's not bottom third.

Oh also to all the people saying shanty town should be higher. No. It's super terrible. As a village it's probably the worst one there is. Worse than native. You can sometimes make use of the +2 cards as an opener or a counter to something like ghost ship, but in general, it kills engines that any other village would enable.
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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2013, 02:04:38 pm »
+1

Ranking the $3's I found hard because there aren't actually that many bad $3 cards. Other than the very best, most of them are the type of card which is going to be pretty useful sometimes, and not useful at all other times, but nothing (other than maybe chancellor?) in the counting house, sab extreme that you tend to see at the $5 level.

I think I have a general agreement with the order given here. My biggest miss is probably fortune teller, which is criminally underrated still for reasons I don't understand. The attack hurts when played consistently. A lot. Now because it's terminal and doesn't offer +card (like rabble) it needs a good bit of support to play consistently, which is why it's probably sitting around the middle of the pack for me, but it's not bottom third.

Oh also to all the people saying shanty town should be higher. No. It's super terrible. As a village it's probably the worst one there is. Worse than native. You can sometimes make use of the +2 cards as an opener or a counter to something like ghost ship, but in general, it kills engines that any other village would enable.

I definitely agree that there aren't many bad $3s- even the worst $3s can be quite useful.

Can't agree on Shanty Town though: I used to think it was super terrible, but then there was that experiment where I went Village/Torturer and HME went Shanty Town/Torturer... and guess what, Shanty Town/Torturer consistently crushed the vanilla Village approach.  And you'd think Torturer would be a worst-case scenario for the Shanties, since terminal draw engines are most likely to leave you stuck with just the +2 Actions.  But, no, the early pseudo-Lab is that useful. My perspective was changed rather drastically after that experiment.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2013, 02:06:31 pm »
0

Ranking the $3's I found hard because there aren't actually that many bad $3 cards. Other than the very best, most of them are the type of card which is going to be pretty useful sometimes, and not useful at all other times, but nothing (other than maybe chancellor?) in the counting house, sab extreme that you tend to see at the $5 level.

Yeah, the $3s actually have probably the fewest duds of any price level, sort of by far.
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2013, 02:07:01 pm »
0

Ranking the $3's I found hard because there aren't actually that many bad $3 cards. Other than the very best, most of them are the type of card which is going to be pretty useful sometimes, and not useful at all other times, but nothing (other than maybe chancellor?) in the counting house, sab extreme that you tend to see at the $5 level.

I think I have a general agreement with the order given here. My biggest miss is probably fortune teller, which is criminally underrated still for reasons I don't understand. The attack hurts when played consistently. A lot. Now because it's terminal and doesn't offer +card (like rabble) it needs a good bit of support to play consistently, which is why it's probably sitting around the middle of the pack for me, but it's not bottom third.

Oh also to all the people saying shanty town should be higher. No. It's super terrible. As a village it's probably the worst one there is. Worse than native. You can sometimes make use of the +2 cards as an opener or a counter to something like ghost ship, but in general, it kills engines that any other village would enable.

I definitely agree that there aren't many bad $3s- even the worst $3s can be quite useful.

Can't agree on Shanty Town though: I used to think it was super terrible, but then there was that experiment where I went Village/Torturer and HME went Shanty Town/Torturer... and guess what, Shanty Town/Torturer consistently crushed the vanilla Village approach.  And you'd think Torturer would be a worst-case scenario for the Shanties, since terminal draw engines are most likely to leave you stuck with just the +2 Actions.  But, no, the early pseudo-Lab is that useful. My perspective was changed rather drastically after that experiment.

I think I remember that discussion. Wasn't the conclusion that the best option was to open shanty for the lab, and then get regular villages after that?

OK, I'm exaggerating how bad shanty is, I think it's appropriately placed at 35% here, and you might argue me up a spot or two, but not more than that. It's still worse than vanilla village by a decent bit. 
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2013, 02:10:51 pm »
0

I think I remember that discussion. Wasn't the conclusion that the best option was to open shanty for the lab, and then get regular villages after that?

OK, I'm exaggerating how bad shanty is, I think it's appropriately placed at 35% here, and you might argue me up a spot or two, but not more than that. It's still worse than vanilla village by a decent bit. 

Yeah, Shanty first then regular Villages would be best, but that experiment also proved, I think, that ST doesn't actually "kill engines" as much as one would expect.  You can use it by its lonesome if you have to the majority of the time. 

But, sure, it does work better in conjunction with other Villages, where you can get it first for the Lab effect and then mix other things in.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2013, 02:47:29 pm »
+1

Loan has got to be, like, my least favorite card. If it skips over your good cards or repeatedly hits the only Silver or Potion in your deck, then you're boned. Bonus points if it does both. And Copper trashing is so much weaker than Estate trashing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2013, 02:49:17 pm »
0

I think I remember that discussion. Wasn't the conclusion that the best option was to open shanty for the lab, and then get regular villages after that?

OK, I'm exaggerating how bad shanty is, I think it's appropriately placed at 35% here, and you might argue me up a spot or two, but not more than that. It's still worse than vanilla village by a decent bit. 

Yeah, Shanty first then regular Villages would be best, but that experiment also proved, I think, that ST doesn't actually "kill engines" as much as one would expect.  You can use it by its lonesome if you have to the majority of the time. 

But, sure, it does work better in conjunction with other Villages, where you can get it first for the Lab effect and then mix other things in.

Doesn't almost everything work better when there are villages around? The thing that's good about Shanty Town is that in kingdoms with little or no trashing, it helps you get your engine going sooner, which a lot of times (i.e. in engines with key attacks, like Torturer) is a huge deal. It does this by letting you draw cards at the time of the game where you need it the most. And when combined with other villages, it can continue to draw cards even once the engine is rolling.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2013, 02:59:35 pm »
+1

I'm disappointed to see Develop rise a ranking again. It really, really deserves that dead last spot. It has so, so much potential to be a power card, on the right board, but that 'right board' is so elusive. 80% of the time it's on the board, it's a terrible buy, pretty close to being useless. Even in that remaining 20%, it's bad most of that time. For it to work well you need a good $4 and a good $5, both ones you're happy to have lots of, a way to collide your Develop into those cards and, even then, you still get something that's only good, not great. You really need to add extra buys, extra actions and extra draw (or good sifting) for it to be really worthwhile, and for it to actually shine, you generally need a $7. It can be really amazing in those circumstances, but it's just so ridiculously rare. I think I've had one case where after examining the board, I've decided Develop would be really good, and I still barely won.

I think somewhat it might come down to people ignoring the frequency and seeing it's sheer power on those crazy-rare boards, but honestly, I really don't think it's significant enough to matter. I mean Chancellor/Stash is a power combo, comes up a lot more than Develop on a friendly board, but it's rated last.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2013, 03:15:33 pm »
+1

Develop's primary use is not in its ability to pull off cute combos; it's to trash Estates into better things.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2013, 03:27:14 pm »
0

First time I've ever heard anyone say that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2013, 03:31:23 pm »
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But using develop to do cool tricks is so much more fun!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2013, 04:16:37 pm »
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The thing is that even if you're planning on Developing expensive stuff, you want to Develop the Estates first anyway.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2013, 04:50:02 pm »
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Shanty Town is definitely overrated IMO.  It's one of those misfit cards where you see, "It's a Village!  I'm doing an Engine!  :)"

Then you realize that Shanty Town as an Engine enabler is virtually impossible.  Throne Room alone is easier IMO.

This card has 3 distinct uses.

1.)  You want an early lab for cycling that will probably not be a lab all game because of other more attractive terminals in your deck.  This is probably the most common use.

2.)  You are running an engine that already has Village support and hey, I guess I can use a Shanty Town for +2 Cards/+2 Actions.  But if you already have an Engine that would benefit from Shanty Town Support, you probably don't even need it in the first place as your Engine is already functioning fine without it.

3.)  There are simply no Terminal Actions on the board that are worth playing.  But there are always* terminals worth playing if Terminals are present.  This case is only relevant when every other card in the Kingdom has a +Action or +2 Actions associated with this.  FYI, this never* happens either.

Simply put, Shanty Town belongs on the Island (Mat?) (Band?)of Misfit cards with the likes of Scout, Chancellor, Transmute, etc... due to each useful function being so dysfunctional for the reason of its use.

*Edge case me, I dare ya  ;)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2013, 05:59:49 pm »
+1

Shanty Town is definitely overrated IMO.  It's one of those misfit cards where you see, "It's a Village!  I'm doing an Engine!  :)"

Then you realize that Shanty Town as an Engine enabler is virtually impossible.  Throne Room alone is easier IMO.

This card has 3 distinct uses.

1.)  You want an early lab for cycling that will probably not be a lab all game because of other more attractive terminals in your deck.  This is probably the most common use.

2.)  You are running an engine that already has Village support and hey, I guess I can use a Shanty Town for +2 Cards/+2 Actions.  But if you already have an Engine that would benefit from Shanty Town Support, you probably don't even need it in the first place as your Engine is already functioning fine without it.

3.)  There are simply no Terminal Actions on the board that are worth playing.  But there are always* terminals worth playing if Terminals are present.  This case is only relevant when every other card in the Kingdom has a +Action or +2 Actions associated with this.  FYI, this never* happens either.

Simply put, Shanty Town belongs on the Island (Mat?) (Band?)of Misfit cards with the likes of Scout, Chancellor, Transmute, etc... due to each useful function being so dysfunctional for the reason of its use.

*Edge case me, I dare ya  ;)

4.) There is an engine on the board that wants to play more than 1 terminal, and Shanty Town is the only thing with +2 actions.

5.) There is another village, but no good trashing, so the early game boost from Shanty Town will get your deck going quicker.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2013, 06:08:45 pm »
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6.) You need the draw, and have enough village support from Fishing Village or something that most of the time you'll be able to play your terminals before you play your Shanty Town.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2013, 06:12:50 pm »
0

7.) Disregard this, I just like adding entries to lists.

First time I've ever heard anyone say that.

It's what -Stef- uses Develop for most of the time, and certainly the guy at the top of the leaderboard can't be wrong... (It's also how I use it most of the time.)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 06:15:08 pm by dondon151 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2013, 06:36:02 pm »
0

8) Fairgrounds.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2013, 06:38:40 pm »
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9) Bane.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2013, 06:50:49 pm »
+1

7.) Disregard this, I just like adding entries to lists.

First time I've ever heard anyone say that.

It's what -Stef- uses Develop for most of the time, and certainly the guy at the top of the leaderboard can't be wrong... (It's also how I use it most of the time.)

Not sure if serious... but really, using it to trash Estates really sounds awful. You need to collide with the Estates, which is easy for the first, less so for the 2nd and I'd reckon you end up with at least 1 Estate left (and sometimes 2) more often than not. Getting a $3 on deck is nice each time, but that's still so marginal in value (like, it loses comfortably to BM in sims - although they don't play it perfectly by any means), so you better either have a good reason for wanting to trash Estates and/or the ability to collide it multiple times, or a good use for Develop after the opening.

Really, using it to trash Estates early is slow, it would really surprise me if you were right about that being the main use.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2013, 06:56:21 pm »
0

10) Vineyards
11) Library/Watchtower
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2013, 07:01:13 pm »
+2

7.) Disregard this, I just like adding entries to lists.

First time I've ever heard anyone say that.

It's what -Stef- uses Develop for most of the time, and certainly the guy at the top of the leaderboard can't be wrong... (It's also how I use it most of the time.)

Not sure if serious... but really, using it to trash Estates really sounds awful. You need to collide with the Estates, which is easy for the first, less so for the 2nd and I'd reckon you end up with at least 1 Estate left (and sometimes 2) more often than not. Getting a $3 on deck is nice each time, but that's still so marginal in value (like, it loses comfortably to BM in sims - although they don't play it perfectly by any means), so you better either have a good reason for wanting to trash Estates and/or the ability to collide it multiple times, or a good use for Develop after the opening.

Really, using it to trash Estates early is slow, it would really surprise me if you were right about that being the main use.

It's not good for trashing Estates in a money deck, so sim isn't going to tell you much. It's a card you generally only want in engines. It hits the first Estate really easy, then maybe a second, but if not, Copper is fine as you get your engine going. Once the engine is going, you can easily match the Develop with whatever you want. Sometimes this is just Estates/Curses/Coppers, and other times it's higher value cards which you can turn into even more high value cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2013, 07:02:04 pm »
0

7.) Disregard this, I just like adding entries to lists.

First time I've ever heard anyone say that.

It's what -Stef- uses Develop for most of the time, and certainly the guy at the top of the leaderboard can't be wrong... (It's also how I use it most of the time.)

Not sure if serious... but really, using it to trash Estates really sounds awful. You need to collide with the Estates, which is easy for the first, less so for the 2nd and I'd reckon you end up with at least 1 Estate left (and sometimes 2) more often than not. Getting a $3 on deck is nice each time, but that's still so marginal in value (like, it loses comfortably to BM in sims - although they don't play it perfectly by any means), so you better either have a good reason for wanting to trash Estates and/or the ability to collide it multiple times, or a good use for Develop after the opening.

Really, using it to trash Estates early is slow, it would really surprise me if you were right about that being the main use.

Feel free to join the debate already in progress.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2013, 08:14:54 pm »
+1

BTW, what do you guys think about that none of the new Dark Ages cards appeared so far?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2013, 08:19:44 pm »
0

Oh man, you're right. That means we're seriously overrating them, I bet.

I bet sage should be somewhere down here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2013, 08:21:06 pm »
+1

BTW, what do you guys think about that none of the new Dark Ages cards appeared so far?

I'm surprised foarager has not appeared, I think it's pretty similar to loan. And market square isn't so hot either.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2013, 08:37:54 pm »
+1

Market square is pretty good, IMO!

1) In engines, it's cantrip +buy. That is already a pretty nice use.
2) Whenever there's any early trasher, you can open with trasher/MS, trash, and economy will come from golds from MS. Pretty nice. You can get huge messes of gold super-fast.
3) Market Square+Hovel .
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2013, 08:40:40 pm »
0

Market Square in my experience definitely seems like a power card. It's like Tunnel, but easier to activate, and has a benefit even if it whiffs. I have it 5th, and I don't think I'd want to place it much lower.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2013, 08:57:44 pm »
0

BTW, what do you guys think about that none of the new Dark Ages cards appeared so far?

I'm surprised foarager has not appeared, I think it's pretty similar to loan. And market square isn't so hot either.

Are you trolling? Market square is fantastic. And forager has lots of applications too, as non-terminal +buy and trashing are fairly rare. I'd say it finds a frequent home in engines. And if there are alternate treasures, and/or incentives to trash treasure (remodel, counterfeit), look out, it just gets silly.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 09:31:42 pm by DrFlux »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2013, 09:03:00 pm »
0

Quote
Are you trolling? Market square is fantastic. And forager has lots of applications too, as non-terminal +buy and trashing are fairly rare. I'd say it finds a frequent home in engines. And if there are alternate treasures, and/or incentives to trash treasure (remodel, contraband), look out, it just gets silly.

No I'm serious here. Market square is good in engines, but useless in Big money, slogs or rush strategies. And forager is usually used for trashing curses, estates or coppers right? For coppers it's just a +1 action, which is worse then loan. It provides money for curses and estates, but most of the time only $1. Loan can't be drawn dead, while this can. Forager will become useless after estates and coppers have been trashed, while loan will provide money still.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2013, 09:05:10 pm »
0

Forager will become useless after estates and coppers have been trashed, while loan will provide money still.

So Chapel becomes useless too after you trashed your starting cards. Does this makes it a bad card? I see what you mean but non-terminal trashing is very strong.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2013, 09:06:44 pm »
0

The thing about market square is I think it's much better in DA heavy games as they will have more trashing. Otherwise, it has two uses: engines without any other plus buy, or in games with good early trashing. Otherwise, it's useless. The comparison to tunnel is obvious, but tunnel's 2 VP are much better then the plus buy IMO.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2013, 09:09:05 pm »
0

Forager will become useless after estates and coppers have been trashed, while loan will provide money still.

So Chapel becomes useless too after you trashed your starting cards. Does this makes it a bad card? I see what you mean but non-terminal trashing is very strong.

Chapel is so much faster though. The thing with forager is if you buy a bunch you won't have much of an economy early as the plus money is either +1 or zero after trashing a copper. If you buy one it's slow. How is it so much better then loan? They are very similar.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2013, 09:14:21 pm »
0

In my experience you buy only buy 1 Forager. You won't buy 2 Loans too, right?
It gives +buy which is very strong and is very similar to Spice Merchant which is either non-terminal or gives money. Forager has both, but hasn't the possibility to increase hand size.
Loan is strong, but the possibilty to skip over you power cards makes is to risky. You can compare it with Lookout too. Lookout doesn't give money and buy but leaves you with one card more in hand.

If you want Lookout, Forager or Loan is of course board-dependant, but I would rank Forager highest of these 3 cards.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2013, 09:16:51 pm »
0


I think both of your reactions are a result of confirmation bias, where you're noticing the few, low-probability occasions when Black Market has high utility, and not taking into account enough all of the higher-probability, low-utility occasions. Sure, Black Market might win you a game every once in a while, but it's also quite possible that on average, playing Black Market on that board is worse than not playing it.

I think that you miss that you can usually tell roughly how much utility BM will have on average. If you can spare the actions, in a long engine game, BM will be a HUGE asset. Having the only tournament or ghost ship or KC can be easily game winning even if you get it late, and in a slow game, its less of a question that this will happen. I agree, in faster games (no alt vp, etc) the comparison with woodcutter is more valid, with a bit of an occasional "look I win" factor thrown in.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2013, 09:20:26 pm »
+1

Quote
Are you trolling? Market square is fantastic. And forager has lots of applications too, as non-terminal +buy and trashing are fairly rare. I'd say it finds a frequent home in engines. And if there are alternate treasures, and/or incentives to trash treasure (remodel, contraband), look out, it just gets silly.

No I'm serious here. Market square is good in engines, but useless in Big money, slogs or rush strategies. And forager is usually used for trashing curses, estates or coppers right? For coppers it's just a +1 action, which is worse then loan. It provides money for curses and estates, but most of the time only $1. Loan can't be drawn dead, while this can. Forager will become useless after estates and coppers have been trashed, while loan will provide money still.

Cantrip+buy is pretty decent already - not exactly a good $3, but probably pretty comparable with some of the other $3's here on it's own. As for the gain effect, it's awesome in BM, very good in most engines (especially, early on it gets your Golds without you needing to buy any, and after you have as many as you want, you can probably utilise the extra buy more), and it's not a bad thing in most other decks. In BM, all it needs is some kind of light trashing - any kind, even upgraders works, and suddenly you have something that can provide you with Golds ~50% of the time you see it in your deck, and is a cantrip if you can't. And some kind of light trashing is pretty common, so that's a good thing. In engines of course you can hit and activate it even more consistently. And it's very good against trashing attacks, of course.

Tunnel's 2 VPs is probably better, unless you need an extra buy, I won't deny that, but Tunnel is also much harder to activate, so many more cards will activate MS reliably, and that's ultimately the main purpose of Tunnel.

Really the key here is, Market Square will be getting you golds probably 50%+ of the time it's on the board, while Tunnel is considerably less.

Forager is pretty good in my limited experience - not great, but decent, above this section. It doesn't give you the extra coin of Loan, true, but then after you've trashed one copper, it trashes Estates and the like for +$1 and a buy, which is nice. It also has the potential to get even stronger in games with trashing attacks, or otherwise the desire to trash silvers. Of course these benefits also apply to your opponents, so caution is needed.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2013, 09:22:24 pm »
0

In my experience you buy only buy 1 Forager. You won't buy 2 Loans too, right?
It gives +buy which is very strong and is very similar to Spice Merchant which is either non-terminal or gives money. Forager has both, but hasn't the possibility to increase hand size.
Loan is strong, but the possibilty to skip over you power cards makes is to risky. You can compare it with Lookout too. Lookout doesn't give money and buy but leaves you with one card more in hand.

If you want Lookout, Forager or Loan is of course board-dependant, but I would rank Forager highest of these 3 cards.

I don't know, depends on the board whether I want 0, 1 or 2. Loan has the problem that with 2 loans, the loan will sometime hit the other loan. Forager doesn't have this problem. I might open with two on a peddler board, for instance. Or if all three types(or more) of treasure had been trashed, I might buy a couple more late game with a spare $3.



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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2013, 09:23:10 pm »
0

Oh, and it wasn't mentioned explicitly, but Loan can't trash Estates. Forager can.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2013, 09:28:09 pm »
0

Also, forager is AWESOME with draw to $X cards. Village + forager + watchtower gets to draw you 4 cards after you get the benefit of trashing. Even better if the village was squire or hamlet or fishing village.

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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2013, 09:39:32 pm »
0

5.) There is another village, but no good trashing, so the early game boost from Shanty Town will get your deck going quicker.

This is, I think, really where Shanty Town does its best work.  On a board with ST, other village, and engine potential, you almost always want that Shanty first.  (And, later on, you'll still usually be able to use it as a $3 Lab).

Shanty Town is also of course also decent as a primary village in "draw to X" scenarios and as a soft counter in the face of hand reduction.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2013, 10:19:00 pm »
+1

Forager is just a notch below Remake and Steward as far as trashers goes. Actually, I am not sure about Steward because Forager is non-terminal. Having played with a lot of DA, I know with certainty that Forager owns Develop, Trade Route, Loan, and Lookout.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2013, 04:54:59 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2013, 09:10:05 am »
0

Considering Hamlet was ranked #2 in the 2's mainly for it's +Buy, I'd say it's not unreasonable for MS to be an average ranked three, considering it has a very strong reaction and is much better as far as +Buy goes...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2013, 09:16:01 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.

Maybe we can synthesize and say that Market Square is decent with Forager in hand. Or with other non-terminal trashers that allow me to use both the reaction and action part of the card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2013, 09:17:18 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.

Maybe we can synthesize and say that Market Square is decent with Forager in hand. Or with other non-terminal trashers that allow me to use both the reaction and action part of the card.

No can do - you have to discard Market Square to use its reaction.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2013, 09:39:27 am »
+1

Considering Hamlet was ranked #2 in the 2's mainly for it's +Buy, I'd say it's not unreasonable for MS to be an average ranked three, considering it has a very strong reaction and is much better as far as +Buy goes...
Hamlet was not ranked at #2 mainly for its +buy  :o
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2013, 09:45:05 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.

In my experience, Market Square can be pretty damn good. Granted, I've only played 2 or 3 games with it, but opening Chapel/Market Square was lots of fun.

I'm not entirely sold on Forager. Well, I agree that it's better than Loan, Lookout (both of which I think are underrated) and Trade Route, but I'd question whether it's better than Steward.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2013, 11:41:33 am »
0

Also, forager is AWESOME with draw to $X cards. Village + forager + watchtower gets to draw you 4 cards after you get the benefit of trashing. Even better if the village was squire or hamlet or fishing village.
One other place that Forager shines is in double Tac, Minion, Conspirator, etc decks where you can really benefit from the non-terminal trashing AND the non-terminal $.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2013, 11:50:22 am »
0

I love forager. Still, I can't imagine too many situations where I would want forager over steward, especially as an opener. Most involve some draw to X engine. Trashing two is just really strong, especially with the added flexibility steward brings.

Also, lookout is way better than people give it credit for, way better than loan in my opinion. Sure, it kicks you in the ass occasionally. However: it is non-terminal, it trashes a card that isn't even in your hand, and it gives you some degree of filtering, as your top card is the best of three cards. The non-terminal nature of it combos great with draw engines, or many other cards such as minion. Finally, if you pay attention to your cards, you can just NOT play lookout when it is really likely to screw you. Loan stinks on a lot of boards, as its really tough to get effective trashing out of it except on boards where you don't have to buy treasure.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2013, 12:49:28 pm »
+1

At the start of the game Lookout provides trashing, cycling and next hand improvement.  These are all fantastic things that Lookout provides, especially early game.  What Lookout synergizes with to a very high degree are other TfB cards.  You use lookout during early/midgame and then Look(out) for a chance trash it for some other type of benefit.  In this way, it no longer is a liability to your deck in the mid/late game.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2013, 01:08:49 pm »
0

Trashing two is just really strong, especially with the added flexibility steward brings.

I would say that trashing two is usually really strong only because you have that extra flexibility. Donald once tried a Chapel that could only trash up to 3 cards, and said it was much, much weaker than Chapel as-is.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2013, 01:52:03 pm »
+2

^"Much weaker than Chapel" doesn't necessarily mean bad...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2013, 01:57:28 pm »
0

^"Much weaker than Chapel" doesn't necessarily mean bad...

Touché. And clearly there are many boards where a trashing-only Steward would be worth $3, but those are probably significantly rarer than boards where Steward as-is is worth a buy.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2013, 02:26:20 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel),

Of course MS is weaker than Tunnel, as trashers tend to have less search space than discarders, but consider that the Gold gain from MS is actually much stronger (in what I would say is a majority of cases) than the Gold gain from Tunnel, since with MS you're replacing a card with Gold, whereas with Tunnel, you're basically just gaining a Gold.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2013, 07:05:15 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel),

Of course MS is weaker than Tunnel, as trashers tend to have less search space than discarders, but consider that the Gold gain from MS is actually much stronger (in what I would say is a majority of cases) than the Gold gain from Tunnel, since with MS you're replacing a card with Gold, whereas with Tunnel, you're basically just gaining a Gold.

Pretty sure there are a lotmore trashers that can easily trigger MS than there are cards that can easily trigger tunnel though.

Edit: Just did a quick count. Probably missed a few, but excluding attacks which can do it, MS has about 42 cards that trigger it easily, Tunnel has about 20 that can trigger it easily. By easily I mean it either looks at your hand, or a reasonable number of cards on deck (>=3 usually).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 07:43:03 am by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2013, 08:03:42 am »
+2

Market Square can be fun with early Mine, especially with Platinum on the board.  I've also enjoyed Market Square with Rebuild.  Market Square is also a great opening with Masq, since even if you draw it dead, you can still use its reaction.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2013, 08:11:50 am »
0

I feel like a key difference between Market Square and Tunnel is that MS triggers on something that you normally want to happen anyway. Sure, there are cards which make you want to discard stuff, but you almost always want to trash stuff. That and you generally want as many MSs as you can get, not quite the same with Tunnels.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2013, 12:16:27 pm »
0

I feel like a key difference between Market Square and Tunnel is that MS triggers on something that you normally want to happen anyway. Sure, there are cards which make you want to discard stuff, but you almost always want to trash stuff. That and you generally want as many MSs as you can get, not quite the same with Tunnels.
Indeed; discarding useless cards won't harm you, but trashing useless cards will benefit you. And MS cares about other useless cards being trashed while Tunnel itself is the useless card which has to be discarded.

Though, Tunnel has its strengths as well and it really depends on the kingdom which one is the better one. But usually, I'd be going for the Market Squares.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2013, 04:18:03 pm »
+1

Here's the video link:


The Best $3 Cards - Part 2/3
#21 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 37.0% ▼3.2pp / Median: 36.0% ▼4.0pp / Standard Deviation: 22.7% ▼4.0pp
Highest Value(s): 100.0% (1x), 83.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (3x)

Here's your first promo which is on the same rank as last year. But it has a very high spread of ranks. It was voted 14 times above average, but on the other side 3 times last. This makes it the card with the highest deviation in this list.

It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? On weak boards it might worth it or you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck.
#20 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 40.4% ▼4.6pp / Median: 36.7% ▼11.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6% ▼2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 80.0% (1x), 76.0% (1x), 73.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.5% (1x), 0% (2x)

And here's the next card with a high deviation. This is the last card with a last rank and it has even 2 of them. But it has also 16 above average votes. And it lost a lot of points with a big drop in Medium which led in a drop of one rank in comparism to last year.

The positive part is: It's a non-terminal trasher which is of course very powerful. It can trash a card which is even not in your hand. It also counters top-deck-attacks, especially Sea Hag (Sea Hag / Lookout is currently the #44 ▲12 best opening), very well. And with the support of "spying" cards you are guaranteed trashing a bad card. All this is similar to Loan. But Loan can only trash the first card. With Lookout you can even choose between three cards. But: In the late game, it's a dead card in your hand, because it becomes dangerous. Who doesn't fear drawing 3 Provinces or even Colonies and having to trash one? More and more players seem to rank it that low because of that fear. The fear isn't justified mostly, but you have to keep that in mind. Especially if you have only 2 or even 1 card in your drawing deck.
#19 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 42.3% ▲0.3pp / Median: 45.0% ▲1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3% ▲2.0pp
Highest Value(s): 74.2% (2x), 72.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.0% (1x), 10.0% (1x), 9.7% (1x)

Oasis is one rank higher than last year. It has also significantly more agreement. It was voted 22 times above average.

At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to many strategies, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible and is especially good on cursing boards or on boards with early greening. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is on the other side rarely a good buy. It synergizes well with "draw up to" cards, so it's no surprise that JaoT/Oasis on #111 ▲41 is a little bit better as opener than simply JaoT/Silver.
#18 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 46.5% / Median: 48.4% / Standard Deviation: 20.3%
Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 83.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (1x), 12.9% (1x), 6.5% (1x)

Here's the first Dark Ages card in this list. And they are all close together. Are the $3 Dark Ages cards hard to rank or are they simply mostly mediocre? Sage was voted 19 times above average and has like most Dark Ages cards in this list a high deviation.

Sage is a great opener, especially with Marauder or Sea Hag where it helps to play the curser basically every turn and also skip over Curses/Ruins later in the game. It helps also to get other key cards like Potion or trashers in your hand that you want to have early. Don't fear to add Silver to your deck because it still helps you to cycle faster. Otherwise it often plays as a weak Scheme because you can't choose the card you want to have in your hand and it even may put a Province in your hand later in the game.
#17 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.0% / Median: 51.6% / Standard Deviation: 20.4%
Highest Value(s): 90.0% (1x), 83.9% (1x), 77.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.1% (2x), 12.9% (1x), 9.7% (1x)

Storeroom is the next Dark Ages card, the first one with an average above 50%.

Storeroom is generally a weak card, but can shine in a handful of situations. It is more like an upgraded Secret Chamber, than an upgraded Cellar. Its discarding makes it one of the best Tunnel enablers, and it comboes well with Tactician, Scrying Pool and in draw-up-to-X engines or Menagerie. But it works especially well with important treasure cards. Almost every Potion cost card synergizes well with it and Storeroom+Philosopher's Stone might be the best one as it is similar to Herbalist+Philosopher's Stone. But the buy and cycling is also great with Fool's Gold, Quarry and decent with Ill-Gotten-Gains. It also guarantees to get to $4 for sure in games without discarding attacks which is great with Gardens. But in most other games this card isn't worth picking up.
#16 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.0% / Median: 58.1% / Standard Deviation: 21.5%
Highest Value(s): 90.3% (1x), 87.1% (1x), 83.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (2x), 12.9% (1x)

Urchin has basically the same average as Storeroom, only 0.02pp are between those two cards. Urchin has a way higher Median and the second highest deviation in this list. In the unweighted list, it would have been 2 ranks higher, on #14.

Urchin is a weak attack. It hurts rarely, only in really thin decks and is in the beginning at best a cantrip Cutpurse, but often worse because you have mostly an Estate/Shelter in hand. Its best use is to use its ability to convert into a Mercenary if you play 2 Urchins (or another second attack) in 1 turn. Mercenary itself is also very board dependant. It's very good in games without trashers and especially in junking games where you can pick up Urchin as second attack and trash the incoming junk. But you still have to trash to Mercenary to get its big benefit what makes it less useful in the late game.
#15 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 52.2% ▼0.2pp / Median: 48.4% ▼3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6% ▲0.8%
Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 86.7% (1x), 83.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.0% (1x), 29.0% (1x), 19.4% (1x)

Village is one of the cards with the lowest deviation. It lost one rank comparing to last year, ignoring Dark Ages. It has only 4 votes in the lower third.

Vanilla village is very hard to rank. How do you rank a card that does nothing beside giving an additional action? It's a card that is important for all engines, but is useless if "Big Money" is the dominant strategy. It's no exciting card for sure, when there are all other engine components there you're glad to have it. The low ranks may come from Big Money players and the high ranks from engine builders. Am I right?
#14 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 53.7% ▲2.9pp / Median: 51.6% ▲1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5% ▲2.8pp
Highest Value(s): 80.6% (2x), 77.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.1% (2x), 16.0% (1x), 12.0% (1x)

It was one of the most undervalued cards for a long time and it went another rank up this year. It even gained a lot of consensus this year. In the unweighted ranking, it's 2 ranks lower. So maybe newer players still underestimate it.

A 2 card-drawer with a spy-effect seems so innocent. But sometimes you even prefer it to Smithy which itself is a good $4 card. You can use it very well in Big Money games where the additional attack part comes handy. The problem with the attack is - like Spy - you do little damage with messing up the top cards. But discarding 2 cards to draw the next two helps cycling through your deck in the early game. But you draw still only 2 cards what is still not very good if you use it in an engine. And the luck factor is high and you have to make hard decisions. Do you want to make your opponent discard the Silver and Estate? It really depends on the cards he has in hand, but you don't know that. On the other side, it's great if you can discard two Golds. So, the attack part is weak, mostly you buy it because you need the +2 cards with the minimized draw luck, which is good in Big Money.
#13 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 56.8% / Median: 61.3% / Standard Deviation: 19.5%
Highest Value(s): 90.3% (2x), 86.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (1x), 12.9% (1x)

Forager has 7 votes above 80%, but some low votes on the other side prevent it being in the upper third.

Non-terminal trashers are always strong and Forager is the best out of the comparable Lookout and Loan in this list. It has also the important buy you often need for engines. It's also a weaker version of Spice Merchant as it both offers the buy and is non-terminal, but it lacks the draw what is the biggest drawback of this card as it decreases the handsize by one (Lookout and Loan don't do that). The variable bonus part makes it similar to Trade Route, but is non-terminal and gets more coins in the beginning what makes it a way better opening. This is also great with trashing attacks like Knights where Gold and Silver easily gets in the trash.
#12 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 58.8% ▼6.2pp / Median: 60.0% ▼6.0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% ▲1.2pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 92.0% (1x), 87.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 29.2% (1x), 25.8% (2x)

Tunnel loses one rank in comparism to last year, but a lot of points. It was voted 14 times below average and it even got a first place once.

Tunnels 2VP for only $3 is already very good. You have to pay $2 more for getting one point more. And the Reaction part is really strong. Mostly there is at least one card on the board which can trigger it. It combos great with Vault, Embassy, Warehouse, Storeroom and such. Young Witch / Tunnel is currently the 76th ▼43 best opening. So Tunnel is one of the rare scenarios when buying a victory card as an opening buy can be really good (beside Island). It's also a great defense card against Discarding Attacks like Militia, Goons or Margrave or even Minion. On boards with many discarding synergies, you mostly can observe a rush for Tunnels. And then not only the Tunnels can deplete, the Gold pile can too. But still it's very situational. If there's no action which can discard, Tunnel is nice in the late game if you miss $5, but no game changer.

To Part 3
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 06:41:20 pm by Qvist »
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2013, 04:22:56 pm »
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Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2013, 04:31:04 pm »
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Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.

Really? Storeroom might be really good in some situations, but I think it's a really weak card in general.
I think both Urchin and Storeroom are overrated, Sage a little bit overrated and Forager is underrated.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2013, 04:39:10 pm »
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Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.

Really? Storeroom might be really good in some situations, but I think it's a really weak card in general.
I think both Urchin and Storeroom are overrated, Sage a little bit overrated and Forager is underrated.

I don't know if it's a weak card in general. It really eases the greening. Loves alternate VP strategies, etc. So great with tunnel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2013, 04:41:50 pm »
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Storeroom is underrated. Forager is underrated. Sage is overrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #102 on: January 15, 2013, 04:47:40 pm »
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Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #103 on: January 15, 2013, 04:49:35 pm »
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Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

I honestly don't know. It is a tricky card to use. Sometimes, it is good, but usually, it is not. It is pretty good to have in your deck with no other trashing and junking attacks are out.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #104 on: January 15, 2013, 04:53:40 pm »
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Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

I have no idea. I had it at #24.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2013, 04:59:58 pm »
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Man, I love me some Tunnels, but someone had that as their number 1!

So far from these rankings I'm learning that I need to play way more Dark Ages...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2013, 05:00:05 pm »
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Can someone explain why urchin is this high?

Because it's sexy and most people haven't played enough DA to get a proper feel, so that sexiness boosts it's rank.

Kinda the opposite of Oracle, which looked boring, the name is to some degree synonymous with Fortune Teller (which is bad) and so it kinda got meh ratings, despite being really good.

Speaking of which, I think Oracle is a little low. It's attack is somewhat luck dependent, but between the spy-before-draw and spy opponent's deck, I usually find it's pretty powerful. I think in retrospect I overrated it in my list, but not by too much (I put it 8th, i.e. I was the 2nd highest rater of it). I'd probably after reconsideration put it maybe... 11th?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2013, 05:06:36 pm »
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Sage overrated IMO! Barely gives any economy!

Urchin is weird. It loses badly in the presence of good trashers like steward, chapel, etc. because you'd usually rather have trashing now than trashing+Attack+buying things later. But it's so dominating compared to not-getting-a-trasher, because it's both trash AND attack AND buying power so you can make up for the time lost buying urchins once you get them to collide. I think it'll typically be better than single-card trashers like loan, lookout, forager?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2013, 05:29:58 pm »
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Lookout is criminally low here.  Non-terminal trashing is great, folks, and the fear of "having" to trash your good cards is way overblown.

Oracle rising and Tunnel falling to this level are both expected, and are both correct.  But I probably wouldn't move either of them further.

I haven't played with it, but Urchin feels high to me- it looks like it's just not that useful on its own, and lining things up to get a Marauder is pretty kludgy.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2013, 05:35:48 pm »
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I don't really get Urchin either. It seems the attack is innocuous at best. Yeah it's a cantrip so it doesn't hurt you to have it, but it's at best slightly better than Spy. Mercenary is decent, but since the trash is required, it's not that easy to be able to use it. All-in-all the whole thing doesn't impress me. I'm sure there are great things to do with it, but I'm not sure about how frequently you can actually pull it off. Seems like you mostly need some way of drawing a lot of cards as well as gaining cards. That way you get the Urchins kind of for free, and then you can get stuff for the Mercenary to trash. That seems to make it too situational for me. Though I would not be surprized if I were completely wrong about it...

The things I'm sure are misplaced are Lookout and Tunnel. Lookout fear is unjustified. Just don't play the Lookout. It's not the only trasher that becomes useless late game. And it's a really good one early game. Compare it to Masquerade. It cycles the same amount and trashes the same amount, and it's non-terminal. The drawback of course is that it doesn't help your current turn if you don't have a way of drawing the card you left on top, but then it still helps your next turn. Now clearly it's not actually as good as Masquerade because helping your current turn is a big deal, and you can still use the Masq as basically +2 cards late game. But the fact that it's at least kind of close in the early game for engines should be worth something...

Tunnel I probably underrate it a bit, but 12 is way too high, imo. For the most part, Tunnel is just a big Estate. And Estates are bad, mostly. It can't provide enough VPs to really matter most of the time, and it's not an action card, so it requires significant support to really do anything. And even then, all it does is gain Gold, which is not really all that great a lot of the time, since adding the Gold is only offsetting the pollution of your deck with Tunnels. Sure there are some really powerful combos with cards that draw and then discard (Young Witch, Vault, Storeroom, Embassy, Warehouse). But outside of that, it's very situational.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #110 on: January 15, 2013, 05:58:30 pm »
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I had a 4 player game where enemy knights hit my Cultists several times, giving me huge hands which were then cut in half by an Urchin.  So yeah, Urchin can still be a strong attack whenever your opponent's handsize grows between turns.

Also, Mercenary is pretty awesome when you pair it with stuff want to trash.  It's sad when you draw it with nothing to trash though.

But I'd say Urchin/Merc is overrated here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #111 on: January 15, 2013, 06:07:36 pm »
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Urchin itself just sucks. Mercenary on the other hand is amazing, especially in games with no trashing. When that is the case Urchin to get to Mercenary is an absolute necessity if there is any engine of value on the board. That said, it is a little bit overranked. The boards where it is needed are greatly outnumbered by boards with other trashing where Urchin won't hurt and Mercenary is too slow to get.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #112 on: January 15, 2013, 06:23:39 pm »
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Lookout is criminally low here.  Non-terminal trashing is great, folks, and the fear of "having" to trash your good cards is way overblown.

Oracle rising and Tunnel falling to this level are both expected, and are both correct.  But I probably wouldn't move either of them further.

I haven't played with it, but Urchin feels high to me- it looks like it's just not that useful on its own, and lining things up to get a Marauder is pretty kludgy.

Lookout, a little underrated yes.  I'd say 17 or 18 is where it should be.

Oracle's fine.  I think it's risen enough now.  I put it a rank or two lower than it is now, but it's somewhere in the 13-17 range.

Tunnel I agree.  It has many many enablers, but outside of ~5 of them it often hurts your early game economy.

I personally think Urchin is fair.  A non-terminal attack like that really hurts a BM strategy, as it makes it much harder to hit Golds early, and then can also hurt for province buying later.  I guess it's kind of like Cutpurse, and I think Cutpurse is pretty good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2013, 06:41:11 pm »
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I personally think Urchin is fair.  A non-terminal attack like that really hurts a BM strategy, as it makes it much harder to hit Golds early, and then can also hurt for province buying later.  I guess it's kind of like Cutpurse, and I think Cutpurse is pretty good.

Urchin's attack does nothing far more often than Cutpurse.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2013, 06:49:10 pm »
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About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2013, 06:56:11 pm »
+1

About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.

You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2013, 06:59:44 pm »
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About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.

You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...

I was exaggerating to make a point.
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2013, 07:06:06 pm »
+1

About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.

You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...

I was exaggerating to make a point.

Maybe we should be realistic to make a more accurate point?

Urchin rarely hurts in the early game and late game. It has some minimal attack power in the mid game where green is scarce. It's not where it is because of itself though, its there because mercenary is a pretty good card. But I wouldnt call it a power card. You run out of targets fairly quickly. Urchin would be a lot more useful with council room/governor where the discard is a lot more effective.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2013, 07:48:46 pm »
+2

There's also the Mercenary vs. Mercenary problem, where 2 opponents have perpetually 3 card hands, pitch the rest of their hands to Mercenary for the attack, and end up blindly drawing 2 cards and getting nowhere.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2013, 08:13:16 pm »
0

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2013, 08:28:47 pm »
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My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

You talk about hermit without ever mentioning madman. It's probably the best part of the card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2013, 08:31:46 pm »
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My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

Compare Jack of all Trades. It doesn't trash great, but it trashes possibly out of hand, that's nice. It gains a $3, that's not great, but it's nice. And it has the potential to turn into a potent one shot. It's not Jack, but it does a pretty decent job of clearing some bad stuff, replacing it with good stuff, then disappearing in a big turn.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2013, 11:15:19 pm »
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My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong.  Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2013, 11:33:06 pm »
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I hate Lookout.  The whole blind trashing thing always gets me.  It's fine early game, but by midgame it's such a liability.  I would much rather have a Forager.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #124 on: January 16, 2013, 02:12:29 am »
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My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong.  Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.

That's a good point. I am probably slightly undervaluing Hermit, but there are still many boards, I don't want it. Unlike Jack where I almost always want it because it is just that good...Unless, there is a strong engine on the board that can outrace Jack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #125 on: January 16, 2013, 02:16:41 am »
+1

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong.  Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.

That's a good point. I am probably slightly undervaluing Hermit, but there are still many boards, I don't want it. Unlike Jack where I almost always want it because it is just that good...Unless, there is a strong engine on the board that can outrace Jack.

Jack is good, but its not THAT good. 4 provinces in 14 turns is decently fast, but there's a lot that tops that. EDIT: I should say jacks big strength in big money comes from resistance to greening. It can plow through 6 7 or 8 provinces faster than a lot of other big monies. So if you're working on an alt VP engine, you have less time to get those points in before provinces drain.

The way I see hermit is sort of like a jack for engines. Jack is really good all around for big money, with some limited uses in engines. Hermit is going to be really good in a lot of engines (particularly ones with cheap parts or ways to gain cards other than buys) and it should have limited uses in slower big money boards.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 02:19:09 am by jonts26 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #126 on: January 16, 2013, 03:13:54 am »
+1

Mercenary is a beast in games with no trashing.

Storeroom is underrated. It's really one of the best card of the "discard-for-benefit family". It's better than vault in many engines because of the +buy and the cheap cost.

But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year (last year 3rd) and I stand by that. 2VP is simply amazing for $3. I don't know why on this forum there is a consensus to rank victory cards so low. After all, you win only by victory points... And a strategy involving tunnel creates a very nice point lead.

On the overrated list, Market square. Yeah you gain a gold but this time with no VP... you simply lose one good card from your hand for a later gold. I don't know where market square is ranked, but #11 is already too high.

Black market is probably overrated a little bit and do not forget that swindler is a lot weaker with dark ages (shelters, cultist, fortress, rats, etc).

EDIT : I forgot forager. Forager is awesome. Really too low on this list.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 03:16:37 am by brokoli »
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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #127 on: January 16, 2013, 07:45:10 am »
+3

But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year

I acknowledge that Tunnel may be underrated, but really, 1st?  Better than Ambassador?  Better than Fishing Village?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2013, 07:58:16 am »
0

I think the the Tunnel Strategy is overrated, that is buying heaps of Tunnels and discarding cards often leaves you with a clogged up deck (depends of course on what the discarding cards are), but maybe Tunnel as a card is underrated, and if so this could be a contributing factor.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #129 on: January 16, 2013, 08:28:35 am »
+1

But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year (last year 3rd) and I stand by that. 2VP is simply amazing for $3. I don't know why on this forum there is a consensus to rank victory cards so low. After all, you win only by victory points... And a strategy involving tunnel creates a very nice point lead.

Ok, let's say you go for a strategy involving Tunnel and I don't.  You need 7 tunnels to overcome a 5-3 province split.  And most of the time if you get 7 tunnels, you won't get 3 provinces.  So then it becomes, how many tunnels can you get, while still getting 4 provinces.  And unless you have a really good way of discarding it (Ie. Embassy, Vault... that's about it. EDIT: And warehouse.) while still buying good cards, you will probably be slower to get to 4 provinces.  So the other guy, if he needs to can simply buy a duchy or two.

Basically what I'm saying is that YES if you hit 3 late and you would buy an Estate, you should buy a tunnel instead.  But unless you can reliably use its discard, it's certainly a trap.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 08:29:49 am by Powerman »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #130 on: January 16, 2013, 08:34:48 am »
0

Quote
Ok, let's say you go for a strategy involving Tunnel and I don't.  You need 7 tunnels to overcome a 5-3 province split.  And most of the time if you get 7 tunnels, you won't get 3 provinces.  So then it becomes, how many tunnels can you get, while still getting 4 provinces.  And unless you have a really good way of discarding it (Ie. Embassy, Vault... that's about it. EDIT: And warehouse.) while still buying good cards, you will probably be slower to get to 4 provinces.  So the other guy, if he needs to can simply buy a duchy or two.

Yeah, Tunnel is really only worth it if you can use it to rapidly gain golds and win the province split. If you have a slow discarder you probably won't make it. Also, at 5/3 split you can still win if you're up by duchies, though its harder.
Tunnel/Hamlet/Smithy/Remodel => Profit!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2013, 09:07:13 am »
+1

Single Tunnels are also a cheap, efficient way to ramp up engine economy with the proper support.

But without support, they're basically just a low cost pile of Victory cards, and I don't think that being a Victory card is really a trait that deserves merit. It's more or less strategically dead on such boards.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2013, 09:30:49 am »
0

I too think tunnel is bit low, not much though. The big thing about tunnel is simply the 2 VP for $3. That alone is a great VP-to-cost ratio (about between Duchy and Province), so even without the discard thing it would be a good card.

Now, the discard effect is a bit overrated in general and needs some support to be really strong, but as an add-on to an already more than decent victory card, it's more than just icing on the cake.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2013, 10:22:28 am »
0

Mercenary is a beast in games with no trashing.

Black market is probably overrated a little bit and do not forget that swindler is a lot weaker with dark ages (shelters, cultist, fortress, rats, etc).


I disagree that mercenary is a beast in games with no other trashing. Ideally you want to get it with another attack, so there needs to be another decent attack on the board. Otherwise, its a little like waiting for two treasure maps to collide. Even still it could easily turn 5 be or later until you gain your trasher. Starting to trash this late is WAY sub-optimal. At least with treasure maps, you get to buy a province immediately.

Sure, urchin/mercenary can be strong in games where engine possibilities are stronger than money possibilities and there are no other trashing options and you have some way to get your urchin upgraded early.

But, that's a lot of ifs. Give me lookout any day, I love that card, especially with draw-to-X, like minion/library/jack.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 10:24:43 am by DrFlux »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2013, 10:31:07 am »
0

Treasure Maps are dead cards until they collide.  Urchins are cantrips which do attack.  I know the attack often hits an estate, but not always.

It is better when there's another attack though.  I used Mercenary in a Minion game recently, and that worked well for thinning my deck.  Keep in mind that hitting with Urchin before Minion effectively protects them from the Minion attack though (picking your best 4 of 5 cards is significantly better than being handed 4 random cards).

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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2013, 10:47:20 am »
0

Its true, urchin's aren't dead, but if you are depending on mercinary to get an edge over a money player, the probabilities of colliding them are only a little better.

You wouldn't usually buy a village first two turns, why would you buy an urchin first two turns?

Okay, so then there are not 2 urchins/other attacks in your deck till after the second reshuffle. So say around turn 5 or 6. Then you have to collide them, while still having an extra action. So really its more like turn 7 or 8 on average when you mange to collide them (without other enablers). That's awful.

I agree Minion is not a bad example of a case you would want them. After you've bought a minion or two you don't want more silvers anyways. Even then it doesn't do much unless you have a village on the board too, as the attack doesn't do much in this context, and you ideally want to be able to grab another 4 cards with minion after trashing. Also, you wouldn't want to buy more than one urchin, as it kind of hurts your minion attack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #136 on: January 16, 2013, 10:55:18 am »
0

I too think tunnel is bit low, not much though. The big thing about tunnel is simply the 2 VP for $3. That alone is a great VP-to-cost ratio (about between Duchy and Province), so even without the discard thing it would be a good card.

Now, the discard effect is a bit overrated in general and needs some support to be really strong, but as an add-on to an already more than decent victory card, it's more than just icing on the cake.

VP-to-cost ratio is a nearly irrelevant measurement. Sure, if you have $15 and 5 buys, you should buy 5 tunnels and not 3 duchies, but that doesn't come up very often. VP-to-dead cards ratio is very important though, and tunnel is bad at it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #137 on: January 16, 2013, 08:29:51 pm »
0

Tunnel is just one of those cards taht requires a combo to be good, and with some of those combos it is incredible. (vault/embassy)

From my playing with urchin, I've found it a great pick up if you get a mid game 3 (or upgrade and estate or something).  Many engines without trashing choke/fall flat after the first province or 2.  A Mercenary in a functional engine ensures it will keep going and also that you'll be playing a militia every turn.

That being said, it requires another attack.  (fantastic with sea hag or young witch battles)  But it is rarely worth opening urchin.  The opportunity cost is just too high.

Oh, urchin is a very nice addition to a council room or governer deck of course
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2013, 11:58:48 am »
0

I agree with this post. But I think the fact that it ALREADY requires a functioning engine, and preferably another attack, and is something you get somewhat late makes urchin not a very good card. There are TONS of bad cards that can be incorporated into a functioning engine to gain an advantage. Heck, I've had games where the difference between winning/losing was the ability to leverage spy and/or thief in an engine. That doesn't make spy and thief good cards. Urchin is a little bit flashier, but roughly the same argument applies.


From my playing with urchin, I've found it a great pick up if you get a mid game 3 (or upgrade and estate or something).  Many engines without trashing choke/fall flat after the first province or 2.  A Mercenary in a functional engine ensures it will keep going and also that you'll be playing a militia every turn.

That being said, it requires another attack.  (fantastic with sea hag or young witch battles)  But it is rarely worth opening urchin.  The opportunity cost is just too high.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2013, 06:40:20 pm »
+3

Here's the video link:


The Best $3 Cards - Part 3/3
#11 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 60.5% / Median: 64.5% / Standard Deviation: 20.3%
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 90.3% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 22.6% (2x), 19.4% (1x), 16.1% (1x)

The upper third starts with the next Dark Ages card. It has a high deviation like most of the Dark Ages cards in this list and has even a second rank. Hermit had 11 votes below average.

Some call it already "Jack-of-all-Trades light". Trashing from your discard pile is great, especially in cursing games and therefore even better than JaoT's trashing ability. It can also gain Silver, but also more Hermits or whatever you want for $3 less, the gaining is therefore even more flexible. On the other side it cannot defend against discarding attacks or top-decking attacks like Jack can. But it can transform into a Madmen. a double-your-handsize village which is great on boards with +Buy and also not so great on boards with discarding attacks. So, alltogether it's a very versatile card.
#10 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 62.1% / Median: 67.7% / Standard Deviation: 18.4%
Highest Value(s): 93.5% (2x), 87.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.3% (2x), 25.8% (1x), 20.0% (1x)

And here's the best placed Dark Ages card and it has the lowest deviation of all Dark Ages cards in this list with only 4 votes in the lower third and 12 votes in the lower half.

Market Square is 2 ranks above Tunnel, the other Gold gaining card costing $3. The Gold gaining is even easier to activate on average than with Tunnel and it's a cantrip, so it doesn't hurt if you don't draw it with a trashing card. Market Square + Masquerade is great because you can convert Coppers into Golds and you can still play Market Square for the cantrip +buy if you want to. Speaking of cantrip +Buy. On every board where you want +Buy, a cantrip +Buy alone is even reason enough gaining one Market Square. And Market Square is great as a defense against trashing attacks like Swindler or Knights.
#9 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 64.9% ▼3.5pp / Median: 64.5% ▼7.5pp / Standard Deviation: 14.0% ▲0.4pp
Highest Value(s): 90.3% (1x), 88.0% (1x), 83.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 36.0% (1x), 32.3% (1x), 25.8% (1x)

Scheme lost one rank to last year and also a decent amount of points. It was voted below average 9 times.

Scheme is a cantrip and mostly don't hurt in your deck as long as you don't draw it dead. But how big is the benefit? If you're building an engine around a key card (like Hunting Party), Scheme is very handy as you can be sure to have that card in hand nearly every turn. With +Buy you could even buy more Schemes to add to your engine. Even with a simpler strategy, but a strong attack, Scheme is very nice, as is basically replaces the second copy of that strong attack card and you eliminate the possibility of colliding. As Double Ambassador is already a strong opening, on those boards you really want to open Ambassador/Scheme and you can later use the Scheme to top deck another card if you want to, so it's no surprise that Ambassador/Scheme is on #70 ▼27 of the best openings. Be aware of Minion, as Minion could completely destroy your top-decking. Scrying Pool + Scheme is good, Golem + Scheme + strong attack is strong and King's Court + Scheme is just crazy. On the other hand, in big money games or with very thin decks, Scheme is not worth a buy and you better buy a Silver.
#8 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 69.4% ▲10.5pp / Median: 74.2% ▲14.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.9% ▲1.3pp
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 96.0% (1x), 93.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 45.2% (1x), 44.0% (1x), 6.7% (1x)

We're crossing a gap of nearly 5pp and there's Watchtower, this year's winner. It only went up 2 ranks, but is over 10pp better than last year. It even gained consensus and has only 4 votes below average with one big outlier. In the unweighted ranking it would even be one rank higher.

Watchtower is the best of the 3 Reaction cards close together. Watchtower is very versatile what makes it a great card. At first it can draw up to 6 cards what makes it a worse Library and is great in Hamlet, Fishing Village, Festival or other decks where the non-terminals draw equal or less cards than you discard. Then it is even an Smithy equivalent. Even if two Watchtowers collide you can use the Reaction part from the second Watchtower for the card you buy. You can put your new card on top of your deck and have it in your hand in the next turn. But Watchtower is even a better defense card. The strongest attacks are Cursing and Discarding Attacks. You can trash the gained Curses immediately and can draw to a more than full hand after discarding. And, with one of the discarding attacks it combos too: Goons / Watchtower is great as you can buy additional Coppers or Curses for VPs and can trash them immediately without clogging up. And now with Dark Ages it got a big boost. With a gainer you can trigger all the on-trash effects on gain. This allows crazy stuff like playing a Goons and a Familiar turn 3 with Squire or gain a Fortress with Workshop and put it directly into your hand or remodel into a Cultist just to trash it and draw 3 cards.
#7 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 70.8% ▼5.5pp / Median: 74.2% ▼1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0% ▼8.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.0% (1x), 92.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 38.7% (1x), 29.0% (1x), 6.5% (1x)

Warehouse is on the same rank as last year, but lost a lot of points. But it even lost more consensus with some big outliers in the lower range. It was voted 6 times below average and would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.

Warehouse is the better Cellar, it is a very useful deck sifter. You can draw 3 cards and discard the most useless ones. It's also a card that works fine with Tunnel and of course with any Attack (Sea Hag / Warehouse is better than Sea Hag / Silver on #102 ▼4) as it is non-terminal and can draw your terminals more often. It's also great if you want cards together that gain strength when they collide, like Fool's Gold or Treasure Map. Because you have one card less in hand after you played it, it synergizes with "draw up to" cards (JaoT/Warehouse is better than JaoT/Silver on #82 ▲44) And you can even play it if your hand is good and discard the useless cards on top of your deck (which are coincidental there or from any Attack like Rabble). It loses power on boards with discard attacks, but with cursing attacks it's great. It's a great addition to any deck which isn't a terminal draw Big Money deck.
#6 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 79.5% ▲1.1pp / Median: 83.9% ▲3.9pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3% ▼5.4pp
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 93.5% (1x), 90.3% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.5% (1x), 32.0% (1x), 19.4% (1x)

Now we're making a big jump of over 8pp to the top cards. Steward lost a rank, but still has a higher ranking than last time.

Steward's strength is its flexibility. It's one of the rare trashers that are good openers and still good later in the game, in this case for $2 or 2 cards. It leads to very difficult decisions (Steward and 4 Coppers: Trashing or Gold?) but either decision is strong. And it is also rare for a non-attack card that is terminal to say about: "It is usually a good buy" (even though it's the opening buy) Tournament / Steward is currently the best Steward opening at #39 ▲1.
#5 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 80.9% ▲2.9pp / Median: 84.0% ▲4.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.7% ▼2.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.8% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.5% (1x), 32.3% (1x), 16.7% (1x)

Swindler is one rank higher than last year and now in the Top 5. It was voted on the first rank once and on the other side 3 times below average.

Swindler is the third $3 Attack and this time it is a good one. It's a great opening buy and can turn the Coppers of the opponents into Curses (Swindler + Chapel is around #81 and Tournament + Swindler on #109). Later in the game it can turn the new good $5 cards into Duchies. With special cards on the board, the punishing can even be worse, like swindling the only Potion into a Treasure Map or Coppersmith or vice versa, turning the Sea Hag into a Potion. But it's highly luck-dependant. Both players may open Swindler and one can turn the other Swindler into a Chancellor. Or you hit 3 Coppers and turn them into Curses and your opponent hit 3 Estates and turn them into ... Estates. Bad luck! With Dark Ages, Swindler is even more luck-dependant, hitting an Overgrown Estate let your opponent draw a card and trash it without replacement. Of course you can decrease bad luck by adding a Spy-like attack, but most of the time it's not worth it. Beware with Peddler on board. Trashing a Province and turning into a Peddler, great. Hitting a Peddler when the Peddlers are out, bad! And beware in the end game. Hitting a Curse when the Curses are out is suboptimal, but hitting a Province and giving your opponent the last Province, can win or lose you the game.
#4 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 85.8% ▲2.5pp / Median: 87.1% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 8.8% ▲2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (2x), 96.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 64.0% (2x), 58.1% (1x), 54.8% (1x)

Menagerie is the last card in this list that didn't have a first rank. But it has a better rating than last year and much more agreement. It has the third lost deviation in this list. It is also the first card with no rank below average.

Menagerie can be very strong, a double-Laboratory, or only a cantrip. Ok, it only hurts when you draw it dead, but it sill needs enablers like cards that can discard (best: non-terminal like Warehouse or Hamlet) or heavy-trashing (to get rid of your Coppers) to use its full strength. Its best use may be to counter Discarding attacks. After a Militia or Goons attacks, just play Menagerie and you have a 5-card-hand again. Of course it's also good if there are many good cards on the board you want to have, or you buy many good cards out of the Black Market deck, so you can maximize the possibilty to have different cards in the deck. In comparism to Warehouse its not always a good addition to your deck, but when it is, it's so good. You definitely need luck to enable it, but you get different cards so fast and if you get rid of your Coppers, that's often the case.
#3 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 92.2% ▲1.1pp / Median: 93.5% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 8.3% ▼2.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (4x) / Lowest Value(s): 83.9% (1x), 71.0% (1x), 41.9% (1x)

We're in the Top 3 and there's the next bigger gap of over 6pp. Fishing Village has a better rating than last year, but lost consensus. Still it's the card with the lowest deviation in this list. It has one big outlier in the lower half.

What makes Fishing Village a good village, one of the best in the game? It hasn't 2 of the biggest problems in combination with villages. 1.) A Smithy-Village chain still may lack the money. FV gives money instead of a card. 2.) You draw 2 terminals with no village in hand. FV gives also an additional action in the following turn and therefore a total of 3 actions, minimizing the chances of not being able to play colliding terminals. So, if you're definitely going to build an unstoppable engine, buy as many FVs as you can. FV / Wharf is so much superior than Smithy / Village and FV / Torturer can hurt so much. You only don't want to buy it if you're going BM, because then you have basically a Lighthouse if you don't use the +Actions. Fishing Village / Masquerade is currently the best opening on #62 ▼7.
#2 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 93.9% ▼1.3pp / Median: 96.7% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9% ▼5.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (9x) / Lowest Value(s): 76.0% (2x), 64.5% (1x), 38.7% (1x)

Masquerade is another time on the second rank. And it lost a little bit in points, but especially it lost in consensus. With 9 votes on the first rank, there's no doubt on its strength.

At first it seems so harmless (at least to me). Even though it is no attack by definition, most of the times it feels like it is one. I cannot desribe the power of Masquerade better than theory did: "By drawing 2 cards, Masquerade combines solid buying power with its deck-thinning, thus allowing you to improve your deck along two axes at once." It's a hard counter to cursing attacks, so you may even choose not to go for the cursing attack with Masquerade on the board. And if you have a discarding attack and play Masquerade afterwards it's even a harder attack, allowing the (in)famous Masquerade pin. It dominates nearly all games; it's great for simple Big Money and it's great in engines too and it's a defense against cursing what do you want more? And Tournament / Masquerade is #8 =0 in the best openings list.
#1 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 97.5% =0 / Median: 100% =0 / Standard Deviation: 10.2% ▼4.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (37x) / Lowest Value(s): 68.0% (1x), 54.8% (1x), 51.6% (1x)

Ambassador is the #1 and it has even the same points as last year. It was voted first by so many that there is not much doubt.

Let's start Ambassador war! In some games the ping-pong of Estates of Coppers is so important that you rather risk open Double-Ambassador and colliding two Ambassadors instead of losing the Ambassador war. Some say it's undercosted and the best attack relative to its cost. You can even buy a curse and turn Ambassador into a Curser. If you lose Ambassador war badly, there's no good chance to recover and building a good engine. But beware: Don't forget building up your own economy. Your opponent is flooded with Coppers and Estates. But he can buy good cards too, so don't forget that. But the power is undeniable. Tournament / Ambassador is #2 ▲1, Caravan / Ambassador is #7 =0 and Spice Merchant / Ambassador #20 ▼2 in the openings list with many other good Ambassador openings to come (Double-Ambassador is #48 ▲13 and the best double opening).

Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #140 on: January 22, 2013, 06:45:13 pm »
0

I have absolutely no idea about the utility of those two Dark Ages cards, but other that, yep.

I think I had Warehouse better than Swindler and Steward, but I'm not so sure about that.

Everything else looks good.
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Wingnut

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #141 on: January 22, 2013, 07:10:10 pm »
0

I don't remember what I voted, but I would now, with more Dark Ages experience, put Masquerade over Ambassador. The combination of Shelters and the way things combo with DA I feel like Masq into engine is just so much better at ramping up the engine in DA games while Ambassador isn't significantly better in non-DA games. Still, it's close.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #142 on: January 22, 2013, 07:42:21 pm »
+1

I'd say that menagerie is a bit high; it's never been super awesome in my experience, even in a game I just played with hamlet on the board.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #143 on: January 22, 2013, 07:52:40 pm »
+2

I'd say that menagerie is a bit high; it's never been super awesome in my experience, even in a game I just played with hamlet on the board.

There are few things in Dominion better than activating 3 or more Menageries in a row.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #144 on: January 22, 2013, 08:01:18 pm »
+1

By three in a row, do you mean without playing anything else in between? Because I'm pretty sure that says more about the power of shuffle luck than that of menagerie.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #145 on: January 22, 2013, 08:07:07 pm »
0

Activating 3 consecutive Menageries is easy with support. A lot of cards support Menagerie and Menagerie itself is fantastic support for even bigger engines.

It's worst in slogs, but even then I think there's a point where you'd want Menagerie over Silver just on the off chance that you can activate them a couple of times with a lucky draw.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #146 on: January 22, 2013, 08:15:57 pm »
0

Dark Ages Shelters I think will really shake this section up in particular when we have more experience with it. Ambassador will drop a little - it's massively weaker in Shelter games which will make up about, uh... about 16.5% when playing pure random (given Ambassador is in the game). Meanwhile Masq probably gets a little better if anything - Necropolis makes terminals generally a touch better, especially cheap ones, and Overgrown Estate is nice to trash. Similarly Menargerie with Shelters, suddenly all you need is some copper trashing, and they become a little more reliable. Not huge, but eh.

I still think Market Square is likely to move down this list as people get more experience with it. It just seems, so often when it's on the board I can easily activate it for a wad of Golds. It's just so much more reliable than Tunnel. And cantrip +buy is a lot better early than 2 VPs - in games with 'dead' tunnels I rarely see more than 1-2 get bought during greening, just because you usually go mostly for Duchies and better.

Scheme I'm really not so sure on. I think I underrated it horrifically, but 9th? I dunno, it does seem a bit weaker than the other cards here. And I really like Scheme.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #147 on: January 22, 2013, 08:22:46 pm »
0

Dark Ages Shelters I think will really shake this section up in particular when we have more experience with it. Ambassador will drop a little - it's massively weaker in Shelter games which will make up about, uh... about 16.5% when playing pure random (given Ambassador is in the game). Meanwhile Masq probably gets a little better if anything - Necropolis makes terminals generally a touch better, especially cheap ones, and Overgrown Estate is nice to trash. Similarly Menargerie with Shelters, suddenly all you need is some copper trashing, and they become a little more reliable. Not huge, but eh.

I still think Market Square is likely to move down this list as people get more experience with it. It just seems, so often when it's on the board I can easily activate it for a wad of Golds. It's just so much more reliable than Tunnel. And cantrip +buy is a lot better early than 2 VPs - in games with 'dead' tunnels I rarely see more than 1-2 get bought during greening, just because you usually go mostly for Duchies and better.

Scheme I'm really not so sure on. I think I underrated it horrifically, but 9th? I dunno, it does seem a bit weaker than the other cards here. And I really like Scheme.

Not only Shelters, but Ruins too.  Ambassador has a much more difficult time countering Ruins (relative to Curses), whereas Menagerie thrives in a Ruins slog (relative to a Curse slog).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #148 on: January 22, 2013, 08:25:51 pm »
0

I'm not sure if Dark Ages will be enough for Menagerie to oust Fishing Village from #3, but it might let Masq move past Amb.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #149 on: January 22, 2013, 08:27:32 pm »
0

Wow yeah Dark Ages is doing wonderful things for Menagerie, with Shelters, Ruins, Knights, Spoils, even Hermit/Madman and Urchin/Mecenary.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #150 on: January 22, 2013, 08:31:19 pm »
+2

Wow yeah Dark Ages is doing wonderful things for Menagerie, with Shelters, Ruins, Knights, Spoils, even Hermit/Madman and Urchin/Mecenary.

*Looks at hand of Menagerie and 4 Rats*

Well, mostly wonderful things  :-[
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #151 on: January 22, 2013, 10:02:32 pm »
0

Comparing the list to my list:
1. Masquerade +1
2. Ambassador -1
3. Swindler +2
4. Fishing Village -1
5. Steward +1
6. Menagerie +2
7. Hermit/Madman +4
8. Watchtower =
9. Urchin/Mercenary +7
10. Market Square =
11. Warehouse -4
12. Forager +1
13. Scheme -5
14. Loan +11
15. Village =
16. Oasis +3
17. Oracle -3
18. Lookout +2
19. Wishing Well +5
20. Storeroom -3
21. Sage -3
22. Tunnel -10
23. Trade Route =
24. Black Market -3
25. Fortune Teller +2
26. Great Hall +2
27. Workshop +2
28. Woodcutter +3
29. Smugglers -3
30. Shanty Town -8
31. Develop -1
32. Chancellor =


Overall thoughts on the 3's.  Trashers are generally underrated.  There are more trashers at 3 than at 4, so you will often open with a 3 trasher and a 4 "other card", as the the 4 nontrashers are normally better than the 3 nontrashers.  Other than that, Shanty Town is criminally overrated, Tunnel is criminally overrated, I overrated Urchin slightly, and scheme is slightly overrated.  I am firmly in the camp of Masquerade > Ambassador, but it's close.  Good list in general though.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #152 on: January 22, 2013, 10:49:49 pm »
+6

I'd say that menagerie is a bit high; it's never been super awesome in my experience, even in a game I just played with hamlet on the board.

There are few things in Dominion better than activating 37 or more Menageries in a row.

FTFY.

   --- GendoIkari's turn 15 ---
   GendoIkari plays a Menagerie.
   ... revealing a King's Court, a Silver, a University, and a Mining Village.
   ... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
   GendoIkari plays a Mining Village.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions.
   GendoIkari plays a University.
   ... getting +2 actions.
   ... gaining a Menagerie.
   GendoIkari plays a Menagerie.
   ... revealing a Salvager, a University, a King's Court, a Silver, and a Mining Village.
   ... (GendoIkari reshuffles.)
   ... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
   GendoIkari plays a Mining Village.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions.
   ... trashing the Mining Village for +$2.
   GendoIkari plays a Salvager.
   ... trashing a Silver for +$3 and +1 buy.
   GendoIkari plays a Menagerie.
   ... revealing a Menagerie, a Salvager, a University, a King's Court, and a Mining Village.
   ... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
   GendoIkari plays a Menagerie.
   ... revealing a Salvager, an Outpost, a Trading Post, a University, a King's Court, a Silver, and a Mining Village.
   ... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
   GendoIkari plays a Village.
   ... drawing 1 card and getting +2 actions.
   GendoIkari plays a Salvager.
   ... trashing a Silver for +$3 and +1 buy.
   GendoIkari plays a Menagerie.
   ... revealing a Province, an Outpost, a Trading Post, a University, a King's Court, a Silver, and a Mining Village.
   ... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
   GendoIkari plays a Trading Post.
   ... GendoIkari trashes 2 Silvers, gaining a Silver in hand.
   GendoIkari plays a Menagerie.
   ... revealing a Province, a Bank, an Outpost, a University, a King's Court, a Silver, and a Mining Village.
   ... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
   GendoIkari plays a King's Court.
   ... and plays a University.
   ... ... getting +2 actions.
   ... ... gaining a Mining Village.
   ... and plays the University again.
   ... ... getting +2 actions.
   ... ... gaining a Mining Village.
   ... and plays the University a third time.
   ... ... getting +2 actions.
   ... ... gaining a Mining Village.
   GendoIkari plays an Outpost.
   GendoIkari plays a Menagerie.
   ... revealing a Province, a Village, a Bank, an Outpost, a Silver, and a Mining Village.
   ... (GendoIkari reshuffles.)
   ... drawing 3 cards and getting +1 action.
   GendoIkari plays a Mining Village.
   ... drawing nothing and getting +2 actions.
   ... trashing the Mining Village for +$2.
   GendoIkari plays a Mining Village.
   ... drawing nothing and getting +2 actions.
   ... trashing the Mining Village for +$2.
   GendoIkari plays a Silver.
   GendoIkari plays a Bank.
   ... which is worth +$2.
   GendoIkari buys a Province.
   GendoIkari buys a Province.
   (GendoIkari reshuffles.)
   (GendoIkari draws: a Province, a Salvager, and a Bank.)
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #153 on: January 22, 2013, 11:23:49 pm »
0

Having played a fair amount of DA games, while Ambassador is no longer the power opener it once was in Shelter games, Ambassador is still the best 3, no question about it. For the most part, the list seems good, but I would put Market square slightly above, perhaps just ahead of Scheme. It is so much easier to activate than Tunnel, and it is more useful than Tunnel. Tunnel is a dead card until the end game. Market Square at worst is a cantrip, and at best you put its +Buy to use. Two days ago, I played this insane Market Square Engine. The board had Chapel, Watchtower, Market Square, Worker's Village and Wharf. Every turn, I would buy Wharves and WV and then use the spare buys to buy curses which I would turn trash with Watchtower to activate the Market Squares and top deck the golds. Sadly, my opponent resigned fairly quick. I had a feeling with the engine I built that I woudl have stood a good chance of being able to piledrive all three green piles. That would have been epic.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #154 on: January 23, 2013, 03:23:07 am »
+1

Having played a fair amount of DA games, while Ambassador is no longer the power opener it once was in Shelter games, Ambassador is still the best 3, no question about it. For the most part, the list seems good, but I would put Market square slightly above, perhaps just ahead of Scheme. It is so much easier to activate than Tunnel, and it is more useful than Tunnel. Tunnel is a dead card until the end game. Market Square at worst is a cantrip, and at best you put its +Buy to use. Two days ago, I played this insane Market Square Engine. The board had Chapel, Watchtower, Market Square, Worker's Village and Wharf. Every turn, I would buy Wharves and WV and then use the spare buys to buy curses which I would turn trash with Watchtower to activate the Market Squares and top deck the golds. Sadly, my opponent resigned fairly quick. I had a feeling with the engine I built that I woudl have stood a good chance of being able to piledrive all three green piles. That would have been epic.

IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #155 on: January 23, 2013, 04:25:29 am »
+1

My opinion : Market square is overrated, ambassador and swindler too, warehouse a little bit.

I already talked about market square.
Ambassador : weaker with DA, and even without DA I think masquerade is better. Because ambassador is usually pretty slow, and masqu give the +2 cards which is very great. I know simulations or high experienced players do not agree, but from my experience, masq is simply always better.

Swindler : I tend to think swindler suffers from DA even more than ambassador or baron, simply because of all these on-trash cards : cultist, fortress, rats, etc... I think I ranked swindler like 6-7 places lower.

I think menagerie is absolutely not overrated, I ranked it at least above fishing village. Also, I'm not sure but I think hermit should be higher : in fact it is not really the power of madman, it's the power of hermit itself, because hermit is just one of the best defense to cursers and looters.

IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.

+42
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #156 on: January 23, 2013, 04:38:32 am »
0

I think Swindler is overrated too, at least I always seem to hit Estates with it. :)

And your point about DA is well put, if you hit an Overgrown Estate you're really doing the other guy a huge favor.
It gets progressively worse too. Sure it's fun to turn a Minion into a Counting House or Duke or something, but replacing a Gold with Gold is only bad because your opponent gets to play his Gold less.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #157 on: January 23, 2013, 07:50:58 am »
+2

I think I might put masquerade over ambassador if I did it today, even without considering DA.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #158 on: January 23, 2013, 12:00:15 pm »
0

For me, Ambassasdor has to be number 1 because it's a consistent junk-giving attack. Masquerade may be the better early-game card, but in the right kingdom (which is most of them), Ambassador is a completely dominant card. It's both your early game trashing AND your sustained attack, which, unlike regular cursers, never runs out of fuel. Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates, but I don't think the difference is that much, especially since the Necropolis actually helps.

The on-trash cards make Swindler a little weaker, but again, not by that much. It's not like the trashing attacks in DA where you flip 2 cards and 1 is chosen. You just flip one. Unless you're going against a Rats deck, you are mostly not going to have to worry about hitting these cards.

IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.

2VP is not "great" for a card costing anything... How often is 2VP going to make more of a difference than having an actually strong card in your deck? Think about it, the 1VP Estates you have in your deck for free, you try to get rid of as fast as possible, and basically never buy for $2. Making it 2VP instead of 1 doesn't all of a sudden make it great... Even 3VP Duchies you pass on in favor of $3-4 cards a lot of the time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #159 on: January 23, 2013, 12:12:52 pm »
0

IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.

2VP is not "great" for a card costing anything... How often is 2VP going to make more of a difference than having an actually strong card in your deck? Think about it, the 1VP Estates you have in your deck for free, you try to get rid of as fast as possible, and basically never buy for $2. Making it 2VP instead of 1 doesn't all of a sudden make it great... Even 3VP Duchies you pass on in favor of $3-4 cards a lot of the time.

Yes but I think thats where the reaction part matters. 2VP  for 3 is great, but you won't buy it anyway. But if you can use this "dead" cards to do something, it's really good. Because sometimes you can just spam tunnels and discarder and even if the combo does't net you much golds, you still have about 10 victory points.

Market Square is great because it isn't dead when you can't activate (but not often you want to buy market square when you can't activate it enough, so that benefit is maybe less important than most think of), but when youre able to activate it, you have to discard it, as you do with tunnel. But tunnel don't lose its benefit, the 2 VP, when it's triggered.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #160 on: January 23, 2013, 12:18:41 pm »
0

IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.

2VP is not "great" for a card costing anything... How often is 2VP going to make more of a difference than having an actually strong card in your deck? Think about it, the 1VP Estates you have in your deck for free, you try to get rid of as fast as possible, and basically never buy for $2. Making it 2VP instead of 1 doesn't all of a sudden make it great... Even 3VP Duchies you pass on in favor of $3-4 cards a lot of the time.

Yes but I think thats where the reaction part matters. 2VP  for 3 is great, but you won't buy it anyway. But if you can use this "dead" cards to do something, it's really good. Because sometimes you can just spam tunnels and discarder and even if the combo does't net you much golds, you still have about 10 victory points.

Market Square is great because it isn't dead when you can't activate (but not often you want to buy market square when you can't activate it enough, so that benefit is maybe less important than most think of), but when youre able to activate it, you have to discard it, as you do with tunnel. But tunnel don't lose its benefit, the 2 VP, when it's triggered.

My point is that 2VP is NOT "great" at all. It's not even good. It's for the most part negligible. Any credit you give to the quality of Tunnel has to mostly be based on the reaction. The 2VP is going to be nearly inconsequential most of the time. And when you'd ever want five Tunnels, other than trying to run out piles, is beyond me...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 12:19:53 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #161 on: January 23, 2013, 12:30:01 pm »
0


And when you'd ever want five Tunnels, other than trying to run out piles, is beyond me...

Silk road?

I'm trying to think of other cases, like IGG, but that involves piles running out. There are perhaps other corner cases where the game will end VERY soon, and you have lots of buys, so with 9 and 3 buys, I could see buying 3 tunnels in the case you don't want a province.

I agree with you 2VP is WAY worse than being able to cantrip in general. At the same time I like thinking of counter examples.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #162 on: January 23, 2013, 12:52:24 pm »
0

Yeah... Masquerade is the best $3 card in the game, now that I think about it. I misranked it myself, though. Sorry to let you down, Masq!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #163 on: January 23, 2013, 12:57:33 pm »
0


And when you'd ever want five Tunnels, other than trying to run out piles, is beyond me...

Silk road?

I'm trying to think of other cases, like IGG, but that involves piles running out. There are perhaps other corner cases where the game will end VERY soon, and you have lots of buys, so with 9 and 3 buys, I could see buying 3 tunnels in the case you don't want a province.

I agree with you 2VP is WAY worse than being able to cantrip in general. At the same time I like thinking of counter examples.

Yeah, I guess my point was that if you're using Tunnels for the reaction, you usually don't want 5 of them.

In rapidly ending games, you grab Tunnels for the VPs, but this has little to do with the power of Tunnel. If Tunnels weren't there, you'd often take Estates instead, so it's hard to say this makes Tunnels strong.

The only case I can think of where you don't care about the reaction but want a lot of Tunnels is 3-piling with cheap VPs. Tunnel alone isn't enough to force this, since 2VPs isn't a lot. But it does add a small pile (in 2 player) worth a reasonable amount of VPs these types of strategies. So you can pile on Silk+Tunnel+Estate or Garden+Tunnel+Estate.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #164 on: January 23, 2013, 01:25:04 pm »
+1

Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,

You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #165 on: January 23, 2013, 01:28:17 pm »
0

Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,

You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.

Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #166 on: January 23, 2013, 01:35:25 pm »
0

Sorry but 2VP for 3$ IS great. I know you wouldn't buy a 2VP simple victory card early in the game, but at the end of the game you will.
And saying 2VP is negligible is absolutely false. Would you buy a noble without the victory points ?

In games with no tunnel enabler, you will still often pick up one late tunnel when you don't have enough for a duchy.
And in games with tunnel enabler, usually the strategy is so good that you can get the 4-4 province split easily, and that's where tunnel is a beast (also, there  are a few strategies involving more than 3 tunnels, tactician + tunnels is not so bad for instance...).

I have the same opinion on island : the action part makes it a pretty good card to purchase during the game, and you have thus a non-negligible point lead in all games with 4-4 province split, and when you don't want the action, you'll take it for VP later.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 01:37:21 pm by brokoli »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #167 on: January 23, 2013, 02:31:31 pm »
0

I think ambassador is still number one as it is a pretty fast "trasher". Its speed just isn't appreciated because we always end up in ambassador wars, but try going without ambassador the other player will go fast. Also head to head I think ambassador would win as it would get rid of the cards faster. This is assuming an engine though, and BM will prefer Masq. Overall, I still think ambassador reigns supreme
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #168 on: January 23, 2013, 02:32:12 pm »
0

Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,

You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.

Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.

If you reveal a Shelter, it stays in your hand because it has no supply pile to return to. So, Necropolis does not help Ambassador since being able to return estates is much more potent than being able to return coppers.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #169 on: January 23, 2013, 02:37:11 pm »
0

Sorry but 2VP for 3$ IS great. I know you wouldn't buy a 2VP simple victory card early in the game, but at the end of the game you will.
And saying 2VP is negligible is absolutely false. Would you buy a noble without the victory points ?
Nobles is massable. Tunnel is not. If your opponent(s) ignore(s) Nobles, you can buy them all. But Tunnel you don't want to do that.

Quote
In games with no tunnel enabler, you will still often pick up one late tunnel when you don't have enough for a duchy.
I don't think this actually makes a meaningful difference that often at all. Sure you take 2 points, but how often does that result in you winning by 1 point (which is the difference from Estate)?

Quote
And in games with tunnel enabler, usually the strategy is so good that you can get the 4-4 province split easily, and that's where tunnel is a beast (also, there  are a few strategies involving more than 3 tunnels, tactician + tunnels is not so bad for instance...).
I guess this is the main point to argue about. I don't think it's this good "usually". There are a few strong combos, but it's going to be useful much less often than the 3s above it (an a reasonable number of those below it), in my opinion.

Quote
I have the same opinion on island : the action part makes it a pretty good card to purchase during the game, and you have thus a non-negligible point lead in all games with 4-4 province split, and when you don't want the action, you'll take it for VP later.
Island is another beast entirely. Island doesn't waste deck space. It actually saves deck space. It's is essentially 2VP in -1 cards after you play it once, which, in the right situation, can be very useful.
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #170 on: January 24, 2013, 09:51:43 am »
0

I think the point HiveMind is getting at is that usually, if there is a tunnel enabler, you don't actually in most cases want to buy a ton of tunnels, and on this point I agree with him: usually 1-3 will suffice, depending on the board. Winning the province split is still the most important thing, and having too many tunnels can hurt your chances of doing that.

2 VP isn't absolutely useless, but it certainly doesn't change the character of the games very much at all, in the way say fairgrounds does.

I think tunnel is awesome with its strongest enablers (warehouse, vault, etc). But its not always the best with weaker enablers, like oracle. I think its at about the right place.
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clb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #171 on: January 24, 2013, 10:04:30 am »
0

Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,

You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.

Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.

If you reveal a Shelter, it stays in your hand because it has no supply pile to return to. So, Necropolis does not help Ambassador since being able to return estates is much more potent than being able to return coppers.

Is this the right interpretation? It makes sense, since there is no "shelters" pile to return things to, but who is to say that there isn't an ever-present, non-supply, perpetually-empty pile of shelters waiting for yours to be returned?
What is the verdict on Ambassadoring other non-supply cards, which do have piles? Prizes, Spoils, Madmen (Madmans?), Mercenaries, etc?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #172 on: January 24, 2013, 10:06:18 am »
+1

That's true enough for Tunnels, but the same goes for Market Square. You don't really want to buy all that many of them in most cases.  I've had my share of games where I've overdone the Market Squares.  You think they can't hurt since they're cantrips, but even beyond opportunity cost, they are not functioning as cantrips if you chuck them for Gold every hand.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #173 on: January 24, 2013, 10:08:51 am »
+1

Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,

You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.

Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.

If you reveal a Shelter, it stays in your hand because it has no supply pile to return to. So, Necropolis does not help Ambassador since being able to return estates is much more potent than being able to return coppers.

Is this the right interpretation? It makes sense, since there is no "shelters" pile to return things to, but who is to say that there isn't an ever-present, non-supply, perpetually-empty pile of shelters waiting for yours to be returned?
What is the verdict on Ambassadoring other non-supply cards, which do have piles? Prizes, Spoils, Madmen (Madmans?), Mercenaries, etc?


Ambassador explicitly returns a card to the supply.  You can't return spoils, shelters, prizes, madmen, mercenaries, or cards from the black market deck.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #174 on: January 24, 2013, 11:35:44 am »
0

Absolutely I agree. But at least with Market Square you have the CHOICE to use them as resources right now, whereas with tunnel you don't have that choice. Tunnels do get in the way sometimes, and they do sometimes actively hurt you when you don't draw them with your enabler. That's why Market Square is clearly better than tunnel, and then you can add in the cantrip +buy, which can be very useful. Both market square and tunnel can have potential in engines, but market square has MORE for many reasons: +buy, trashing is what you want anyways, cantriping.

That's true enough for Tunnels, but the same goes for Market Square. You don't really want to buy all that many of them in most cases.  I've had my share of games where I've overdone the Market Squares.  You think they can't hurt since they're cantrips, but even beyond opportunity cost, they are not functioning as cantrips if you chuck them for Gold every hand.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #175 on: January 24, 2013, 04:10:52 pm »
+1

I actually played a game where I bought Market Square solely for the +Buy. So, I would have to say it superior to Tunnel. I wouldn't buy a Tunnel solely for the VP unless it was mighty close to the end game.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #176 on: January 24, 2013, 05:31:52 pm »
0

Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,

You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.

Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.

If you reveal a Shelter, it stays in your hand because it has no supply pile to return to. So, Necropolis does not help Ambassador since being able to return estates is much more potent than being able to return coppers.

Is this the right interpretation? It makes sense, since there is no "shelters" pile to return things to, but who is to say that there isn't an ever-present, non-supply, perpetually-empty pile of shelters waiting for yours to be returned?
What is the verdict on Ambassadoring other non-supply cards, which do have piles? Prizes, Spoils, Madmen (Madmans?), Mercenaries, etc?

This is an official ruling from Donald X.  I think it was first given during DA previews.  It's probably also in the rule book.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #177 on: January 24, 2013, 06:16:03 pm »
+1

I actually played a game where I bought Market Square solely for the +Buy. So, I would have to say it superior to Tunnel. I wouldn't buy a Tunnel solely for the VP unless it was mighty close to the end game.

Well, keep in mind that while you don't need the additional buys in every game, every game does have a period that's "mighty close to the end game".
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #178 on: January 24, 2013, 06:35:15 pm »
0

I actually played a game where I bought Market Square solely for the +Buy. So, I would have to say it superior to Tunnel. I wouldn't buy a Tunnel solely for the VP unless it was mighty close to the end game.

Well, keep in mind that while you don't need the additional buys in every game, every game does have a period that's "mighty close to the end game".

I'd be willing to bet that if you removed the reactions from the cards, Market Square would be useful much more often than Tunnel. Even though you don't need the +buy every game, in the games where you get it, it will make a big difference. For non-reaction Tunnel to actually make a difference, you need to be have a spare $3 in the late game AND be in a game where the difference between winning and losing is 1VP.
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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #179 on: January 25, 2013, 06:58:30 pm »
0

The top of this list seems good.  No idea on the Dark Ages cards, I might put them ahead of Scheme and Watchtower actually, and I might even consider Lookout up in this echelon.  But the top seven are obviously exactly right, and probably in that order too.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #180 on: August 20, 2013, 06:53:56 pm »
+1

Give me some examples of kingdoms where you'd rather open Lookout than Ambassador, and I'll give you a hundred for each one where I'd rather open Ambassador than Lookout*.

Lookout is somewhat random, which makes it get progressively worse beyond the earlygame, as it becomes harder to hit your bad cards with it, and more risky as you might hit only good cards. On top of that, trashing one card is not that huge. Trashing is nice, but not amazing, and the fact it trashes from deck (allowing you to continue buying cards) is marred by how slow it is at trashing. On the other hand Ambassador thins you deck notably faster than Lookout does (typically 2 cards at a time at first, and you often won't buy cards at the same time which while being somewhat of a disadvantage, does mean your deck thins faster), and simultaneously junking your opponent. It takes only a few turns to have a very lean deck while your opponents is full of bloat. On top of that, Ambassador continues to be useful, being usable as a psuedo-curser, throwing out coppers, estates or of course, even curses, right through the mid and often late game, and offers other interesting pile-depletion options and other things right up to endgame, while Lookout becomes a completely dead card.

Finally, Doctor > Lookout for deck thinning, I'd say, in my limited experience. And you can open with two of ANY $3 card, so that's not really a point worth noting...

*Examples may be provided in the form of "Go to goko and hit random 100 times"
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #181 on: August 20, 2013, 06:54:39 pm »
+1

i... don't get it. lookout is hands down the best 3-4$ trasher. you can trash a card with only 1 card disadvantage in the current turn and it even improves your next turn. i'd rank it in top 3, maybe at #1. it totally beats ambassador.

you can even open with 2 lookouts.

how is it so low?

The biggest problem with lookout is in it's unpredictability. You get to trash one of three random cards from your deck, and you can't trash from your hand so you never have a good chance to trash those last pesky coppers except in a few cases. It gets harder and harder to actually trash what you want. And trashing only one card at a time is sort of slow anyway. So yeah, lookout has only one thing it does sort of well. But it's not the best trasher at its cost. And all it does is trash.

Compare some of the other $3 trashers -

Masquerade also trashes one card, but it draws 2 cards so after you trash you still have 5 cards to work with. Also you can pick any one out of 6 cards to trash (and even more if you can draw more cards first). So masq trashes sort of slow, but it does so very efficiently. Also it has some other tricks with discard attacks and whatnot.

Ambassador not only 'trashes' but also junks. And junking cards are really powerful. So yeah, the deck thinning from amb isnt great, but it junks at the same time, which is super great. Overall making it quite strong.

Steward trashes 2 cards, which is quite a bit better than 1 card. Obviously your current hand is usually dead unless there are some $2 cards you want, so it's not nearly as good as a trasher as chapel or something, but after youre done trashing, it does other very useful things as well.
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #182 on: August 20, 2013, 07:00:09 pm »
+9

i... don't get it. lookout is hands down the best 3-4$ trasher. you can trash a card with only 1 card disadvantage in the current turn and it even improves your next turn. i'd rank it in top 3, maybe at #1. it totally beats ambassador.

you can even open with 2 lookouts.

how is it so low?

Come to Outpost and we'll play a bunch of games where you open double Lookout and I open double Amb. I'd be surprised if it would take more than two games to convince you that Amb is vastly superior.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #183 on: August 20, 2013, 07:15:20 pm »
+1

Give me some examples of kingdoms where you'd rather open Lookout than Ambassador, and I'll give you a hundred for each one where I'd rather open Ambassador than Lookout*.
i don't think i'd buy ambassador ever if there was a lookout. lookout is just so much better, because if you play ambassador, your turn is usually useless. you have a 3 card disadvantage, which means that  you only have 2 left and mostly you dont care about getting $2 cards. lookout hurts much less and the fact that your next turn gets better almost makes up for it.

Lookout is somewhat random, which makes it get progressively worse beyond the earlygame, as it becomes harder to hit your bad cards with it, and more risky as you might hit only good cards.
sometimes, yes. but more often, you can play it risk free. because if your deck is shitty there is almost guaranteed at least one bad card within 3 random ones. and if your deck is good it mostly means that you have a nice engine and then you can play it really late when you know which cards are left to draw. and if there's a laboratory within the last 3 cards you can even prepare for the next turn and make it less likely that your engine falls flat

.  On top of that, trashing one card is not that huge. Trashing is nice, but not amazing, and the fact it trashes from deck (allowing you to continue buying cards) is marred by how slow it is at trashing. On the other hand Ambassador thins you deck notably faster than Lookout does
and ambassador is a terminal and it completely ruins every turn you play it in. and a lot of times you draw it with like 3 coppers and one estate and then you have to decide wether to return 2 coppers or just one estate. if you chose the estate, you get -1 dead card and your opponent gets +1 dead card, which is nice, but your oponent will easily get rid of it with lookout, so it's not that big a deal. and if you use it on copper it means that your turn is compeltely scrwed over because you don't have any treasures left. and note that, if you play ambassador vs lookout, soon you'll be out of estates and have to use it on coppers while your enemy can comfortably trash with lookout without ruining his turns.

On top of that, Ambassador continues to be useful, being usable as a psuedo-curser, throwing out coppers, estates or of course, even curses, right through the mid and often late game, and offers other interesting pile-depletion options and other things right up to endgame, while Lookout becomes a completely dead card.
i completely disagree, i think lookout scales better, because of the reasons i desrcibed above.

Finally, Doctor > Lookout for deck thinning, I'd say, in my limited experience. And you can open with two of ANY $3 card, so that's not really a point worth noting...

with "can" i meant "it's good". and it is good because it's non terminal. try opening with 2 ambassadors.

you can also couple it with any other $3-4 terminal like swindler without risking anything, another thing you can't do with ambassador. and if there are shelters ambassador becomes even worse...

but i just compared it to ambassador because he's #1. the actual joke is that even steward is higher than lookout which makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #184 on: August 20, 2013, 07:23:18 pm »
+1

Maybe you should take up SheCantSayNo's offer because you are definitely overestimating Lookout.

In the Amb vs. Lookout matchup, Amb will be removing dead cards more quickly than Lookout.  Yeah you probably don't buy anything that you play it on, but the faster deck trimming is worth it.  On the flip side, you may say that Lookout can easily trash the junk that Amb is sending, but that doesn't matter because the effect of Amb's junking is that your deck is slowed down a lot.  You play Lookout and trash a junk card, your opponent gives you a junk card with Ambassador.  Your deck is no better for it now.

Being able to buy something on the turn that you trash is nice, but trimming down quickly is usually much better.
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Watno

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #185 on: August 20, 2013, 07:24:39 pm »
+2

try opening with 2 ambassadors.
Go take SCSN's offer and you'll see what a double ambassador opening can do.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #186 on: August 20, 2013, 07:30:24 pm »
0

P.S. even putting value on being able to buy something on the turn you trash, I don't see why you would rank Lookout at the top.  Forager is the easy comparison here.  The main difference is that Lookout trashes from the deck whereas Forager trashes from the hand, and Forager provides coin and +Buy.  Forager wins here -- the money that it provides is worth at least as much as the extra card you would have in hand with Lookout (due to not having trashed from hand).  But Forager is less risky and it provides +Buy which can be very handy.  Pretty much the only thing that Lookout has over Forager is slightly increased cycling.
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #187 on: August 20, 2013, 07:31:33 pm »
+2

try opening with 2 ambassadors.
Go take SCSN's offer and you'll see what a double ambassador opening can do.

Double Amb is much much worse if your opponent isn't getting an amb also.

And @silverspawn - read my last post where I address the steward comparison. Lookout trashes weakly (only one card, and you have limited control over what that card is). And that's really the only thing it does. The deck rearrangement is very minor at best. And you do have to consider the risk of being forced to trash a good card. The other cards which are ahead of it on this list tend to not trash all that well either, but they do other things as well. Steward trashes 2 cards, albeit non-terminally. But 2 trashing 2 cards is a lot better than trashing 1 card. And once you've trashed, steward is a very useful engine card since it can draw or give $.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #188 on: August 20, 2013, 07:58:47 pm »
0

Come to Outpost and we'll play a bunch of games where you open double Lookout and I open double Amb. I'd be surprised if it would take more than two games to convince you that Amb is vastly superior.
sure, why not. i'm probably wrong, given that everyone seems to be so sure, but it'll be interesting

e: though to really disprove my point you'd have to open double steward. and do we play with or without shelters?

Quote
P.S. even putting value on being able to buy something on the turn you trash, I don't see why you would rank Lookout at the top.  Forager is the easy comparison here.  The main difference is that Lookout trashes from the deck whereas Forager trashes from the hand, and Forager provides coin and +Buy.  Forager wins here -- the money that it provides is worth at least as much as the extra card you would have in hand with Lookout (due to not having trashed from hand).  But Forager is less risky and it provides +Buy which can be very handy.  Pretty much the only thing that Lookout has over Forager is slightly increased cycling.

i don't buy into that whole risky thing. experience shows that there is almsot always a way to be relatively safe. and yea, forager is top tier aswell, but it doesn't always give +$ and it's -2 cards, where as lookout is just -1. that's what makes it so good, it trashes with just 1 card disadvantage. aside from lookout, only $5 non-terminal cards do that
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 08:14:51 pm by silverspawn »
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #189 on: August 20, 2013, 08:32:39 pm »
+1

How about you just look at the CouncilRoom.com list of best openings and see where Amb/Amb ranks relative to Lookout/Lookout?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #190 on: August 20, 2013, 08:52:08 pm »
+1

Unfortunately, councilroom stuff is all really old now :(   and doesn't include data with shelters, which matters for amb.

Lookout is actually a pretty good trasher. But the thing is, trashing is the only thing it does. And it's not a fast trasher, only trashing one card at a time.

Ambassador is better than it because it's both a trasher AND an attack, and it gets rid of 2 cards at once (giving your opponent one!)
Steward is better than it in part because of versatility. Early-game it's a trasher which trashes faster than lookout (2 cards instead of 1). But then mid-game it's either coins or card draw, whereas lookout is a dead card when you're out of stuff you can safely trash.

Shelters make Ambassador way weaker. Then it's just a copper-trasher, and it's pretty bad.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 08:55:50 pm by ftl »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #191 on: August 20, 2013, 08:55:39 pm »
+1

I agree that Lookout is underrated, but I think you're underrating like all the other trashers... I think the problem is that you're looking at them too myopically. If they were 1-shot cards, Lookout might be the best since it hurts this turn the least and helps next turn the most. But you have to look at the entire flow of the game, not just a couple turns.

The thing that makes Ambassador so powerful is that it combines attacking with deck-cleaning. The attack forces the game to be longer, which makes it okay to spend some turns not buying anything, since you'll have plenty of time to build up as the game goes on. Steward is powerful because it trashes quickly and then turns into a drawing card, which is great in a deck with all the weak cards trimmed out. Lookout fails to have the power of these cards because the light trashing with no built-in transition isn't extreme enough to single-handedly affect the game flow as often.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #192 on: August 20, 2013, 09:04:16 pm »
+6

i... don't get it. lookout is hands down the best 3-4$ trasher.

I think we've been trolled.

Seriously, these are not individual opinions picked from someone's ass.  It is the generally agreement of dozens of players with a combined hundred thousand plus games that Lookout is one of the worst $3 trashers, while Ambassador and Masquerade are top 10 cards overall, and Steward is reasonably high as well.

I mean, I could claim that Counting House is a great $5 card because it's the only card than can provide $25 with one play, but that would be a dumb thing to claim.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #193 on: August 20, 2013, 09:15:42 pm »
+1

It is the generally agreement of dozens of players with a combined hundred thousand plus games...

...which is no argument whatsoever. it's also a general agreement of billions of people that there is a god and that democracy is the superior form of goverment and i disagree with both of those statements, and so do millions of others. in broodwar, even professional gamers who play the game for more than 12 hours a day thought that the vulture was bad, only to later realise that it was overpowered and had to be nerfed. if you start using these kinds of arguments you just talk yourself into a corner, because opinion of majority just doesn't - mean - anything. so just don't do it. it's incredibly short minded.

we actually played 2 games with double amb vs dual lookout and both of them very incredibly close early game and both of them he eventually won, but he's just better at this game, so it doesn't disproof or proof anything

all of that doesn't mean that ambassador isn't in fact better, but i still don't see it and what you wrote here doesn't exactly help making me believe anything.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:17:52 pm by silverspawn »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #194 on: August 20, 2013, 09:21:00 pm »
0

I honestly don't think Amb. holds up as much these days. It is still strong, but DA really changes the strength of that card.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #195 on: August 20, 2013, 09:28:22 pm »
+14

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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #196 on: August 20, 2013, 09:29:21 pm »
+3

...which is no argument whatsoever.

Data and science are not arguments?

Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.
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GeoLib

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #197 on: August 20, 2013, 09:33:17 pm »
+1

...which is no argument whatsoever.

Data and science are not arguments?

Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.

He's saying that just because everyone says it's awesome doesn't make it awesome. That isn't the same as data, science, or fact. Obviously there is merit in the aggregate view of people who have played a whole bunch of games, but I wouldn't call it fact. (I still think amb is way better than lookout)
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #198 on: August 20, 2013, 09:38:29 pm »
0

I don't care about that. Amb/Amb is way better than Lookout/Lookout on average. The fact that there are some Shelters games every now and then that weaken Amb isn't going to change the relationship between the two cards.
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #199 on: August 20, 2013, 09:45:20 pm »
+3

Okay. So. You open with a lookout. I open with an ambassador. You play your lookout, trashing a card. I play ambassador, getting rid of two cards and giving you one.
Your deck did not get any smaller! You still have the same amount of junk! If we continue to play lookouts and ambassadors with equal frequency (not hard to do even though ambassador is terminal) you will never successfully trash your estates and coppers since I will keep giving you new ones! This is bad for you, and as such the majority of the time ambassador is superior to lookout.

But you're like, wait man, I opened DOUBLE Lookout! I'm trashin' two card a shuffle now! So, maybe I open Ambassador/Lookout, and I get rid of three cards to your one. You are going to lose.

And then, you're still not done arguing of course, so you say, whoa man, you might be trashin' super fast, but I'm building my deck way faster than you since I get to keep my full hand!
Except, honestly, if you open double lookout, your hand is going to be pretty crappy, averaging 2.33 coins per turn. Which, as you said, isn't very good since often the two dollar cards aren't very important anyway.


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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #200 on: August 20, 2013, 09:49:19 pm »
+1

I don't care about that.

Is this your catchphrase? You say it all the time.  ;D
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #201 on: August 20, 2013, 09:53:24 pm »
0

...which is no argument whatsoever.

Data and science are not arguments?

Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.

now you are really messing up defininitions. to resolve this dispute without accessing in petty arguments i have to elaborate really far. the problem here is that dominion, similiar to a lot of games present in esport, is an incredibly complex game which noone (that includes professional gamers (if there are any) and creators) can fully grasp. that means that, unless two cards can be compared in a very narrow scale (like village vs worker village) you can't ever reach a final conclusion. the game is played by humans whose valuations are very much flawed, f.e. a lot of newer players wouldn't think that the chapel is as strong as we currently belief that it is. this means that "most people think..." doesn't work, so you have to narrow it down to the high skill level.

unfortunately, opinions on high level gaming is defined by the so called metagame. i dont know if that term is common for dominion, but it can be used the same way. the metagame is the common belief about how the game should be played. such a thing exists because high level players don't play isolated but share their knowledge and opinions on places like this. the problem is, dominion is way too young to have it's metagame static, and because the kingdoms are different every time it's also extremely complex and dynamic even in comparison to a lot of RTS games. if there wouldn't be any new extensions for, let's say, 5 years, a lot of things would change, some cards would gain a lot of popularity and some cards would lose some, until the point is reached where we discover what is actually strong. that point is far off.

one of this cards could be lookout. this means that these kinds of arguments never prove anything, and more specifically "data and science" is confusing, because we don't have any data about perfectly played games, we only have data of players playing in a specific metagame - the current metagame.

again, all of this doesn't mean that i'm right. but these kinds of arguments "general opinion", "statstics" or "winrates of cards" aren't valid to disproof quality judgements about cards. they can be used to make statements about probability, but you can never proof anything. if you could, i wouldn't even have stated that i think lookout is underrated in the first place. the very term "underrated" only makes sense because common belief is not a universal truth.

ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #202 on: August 20, 2013, 09:57:55 pm »
+1

I'd be curious to see the logs of those games.... here they are.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.5182cd42e4b05e4ebc88aeed.1377046960780.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130820/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1377045593876.txt

Tbh, I think in both cases Amb/Amb wasn't the best opening. Probably would have gotten my second Amb on t3/4 in both cases. But Lookout had the same issues, I don't know that lookout/lookout was the best lookout play? But I certainly know amb better than I know lookout. 

I still think the games show that Amb is better. Notably, in game 1, by turn 10 scsn had gotten down to just 1 starting card left, whereas silverspawn had 5 - and was getting hit with a junking attack each turn. By turn 13 they were back up to 7 dead cards (6 coppers 1 estate).

Interestingly, this game had lookout/fortress too, Fortress would definitely make late-game lookout plays safer.

I think it definitely illustrates why the Amb was better. Early-game things were pretty even, but the ambassador was just a little faster at trashing and then turned into a potent attack, keeping silverspawn from ever getting their deck thin enough given the weak draw (ghost ship, haven, followers, trusty steed being the only way to increase handsize).

Second game. Again, I think the conclusions are similar. Despite being hit by Mountebank, SCSN got rid of their starting cards faster. With both Mountebank and Ambassador, the game was super-slow, but at turn 17 scsn had three coppers and one curse in their deck. At that point, silverspawn had 7 coppers and 4 curses - this despite SCSN not having a mountebank yet. At the end of the game silverspawn had 11 coppers and 6 curses, whereas scsn had just 1 copper.

If Ambassador was just "trash two cards" then I think Lookout would be better. But it's not; the attack part of it is huge.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:12:52 pm by ftl »
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #203 on: August 20, 2013, 10:11:57 pm »
0

I would guess that the best response to double lookout isn't double amb, it's single amb? A single ambassador still trashes faster than two lookouts - a single play of Amb clears out two dead cards and gives out one dead card, whereas two lookouts clear out two dead cards (but receive one dead card from the amb). But double amb runs into collisions and economy problems pretty quickly. Usually you need double amb to 'win' the ambassador war against somebody else also going ambassadors, but if you're not getting junked then a single amb trashes fast enough and it might be better to spend the other opening buy on economy (or, even better, cycling).

 So in game 1, I probably would have opened amb/tournament or maybe amb/sage. And in the second game... well, against someone going with lookouts, maybe amb/mountebank?
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #204 on: August 20, 2013, 10:20:14 pm »
0

Okay. So. You open with a lookout. I open with an ambassador. You play your lookout, trashing a card. I play ambassador, getting rid of two cards and giving you one.
Your deck did not get any smaller! You still have the same amount of junk! If we continue to play lookouts and ambassadors with equal frequency (not hard to do even though ambassador is terminal) you will never successfully trash your estates and coppers since I will keep giving you new ones! This is bad for you, and as such the majority of the time ambassador is superior to lookout.

But you're like, wait man, I opened DOUBLE Lookout! I'm trashin' two card a shuffle now! So, maybe I open Ambassador/Lookout, and I get rid of three cards to your one. You are going to lose.

And then, you're still not done arguing of course, so you say, whoa man, you might be trashin' super fast, but I'm building my deck way faster than you since I get to keep my full hand!
Except, honestly, if you open double lookout, your hand is going to be pretty crappy, averaging 2.33 coins per turn. Which, as you said, isn't very good since often the two dollar cards aren't very important anyway.

meh, that is paper thin argumentation again. what if you open with dual ambassador, i open with dual lookout, we both draw both our action cards with 3 coppers. i can get rid of 2 of my 3 estates in the turn, buy a silver or a third lookout and have all the new cards come again super quickly, because lookouts shorten the repeat cycle. you, on the other hand, just get rid of 2 coppers, give me one copper, and can't buy anything and your next turn will be just as bad because there are 3 estates left to draw

the way i would approach it is different. i'd try to figure out the amount of trashing per damage done, let's call it p/x. p can simply defined as difference of bad cards in both players decks, where as x would be the amount of damage that the turn in which you play it suffers. for lookout we can give it 1p/1x.

now let's try it for ambassador. i can give it 2,5p, because you get rid of 1-2 bad cards and your enemy gains 1 bad card. the amount of x has to be the estimated amount of damage compared to the one of lookout.

and that is really high. because once you got rid of your estates, you will have to return copper, which, if you don't want $2 cards, makes your turn completely useless. so i could give it somewhere between 2, while there are estates, and somewhere at 4, if it makes your turn useless. so that would be ~2,5/3,2. according to that, lookout is better. now obviously, you need about twice as many lookouts then ambassadors to make that work, but since you have more money in very early turns, you can get them. very early $3 instead of $2 is enough to have one additional lookout for the rest of the game.

now, obviously, this doesn't proof anything, it's just my line of thinking if i try to go onto the subject analyitcally. but also, what if there are shelters? what if there are no +action cards (exept necropolis)? lookout always works, and in the statistic there are dark ages cards, so those cases have to be taken into consideration. it's about how often we would almost never buy it and i would never buy ambassador if there are shelters, and very rarely without proper action setups.

Tbh, I think in both cases Amb/Amb wasn't the best opening. Probably would have gotten my second Amb on t3/4 in both cases. But Lookout had the same issues, I don't know that lookout/lookout was the best lookout play? But I certainly know amb better than I know lookout.

none of us will argue here. i didn't think that dual lookout was the best opening and he didn't think that dual amb was the best opening. we did it solely because the point was to decide wheter dual amb beats dual lookout or not

Quote
I think it definitely illustrates why the Amb was better. Early-game things were pretty even, but the ambassador was just a little faster at trashing and then turned into a potent attack, keeping silverspawn from ever getting their deck thin enough given the weak draw (ghost ship, haven, followers, trusty steed being the only way to increase handsize).

Second game. Again, I think the conclusions are similar. Despite being hit by Mountebank, SCSN got rid of their starting cards faster. With both Mountebank and Ambassador, the game was super-slow, but at turn 17 scsn had three coppers and one curse in their deck. At that point, silverspawn had 7 coppers and 4 curses - this despite SCSN not having a mountebank yet. At the end of the game silverspawn had 11 coppers and 6 curses, whereas scsn had just 1 copper.

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

oh and also, lookout is harder to execute i think. if you play perfect, you always know exactly which cards are left in your deck and then it takes a lot of the random factor away. and you always have exactly the right number. i couldve just bought too little/too many of them or bought them at wrong times
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:33:09 pm by silverspawn »
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #205 on: August 20, 2013, 10:32:11 pm »
0

Shelters definitely make amb worse, as does lack of +action.

On the other hand, lack of another attack makes amb better, because Amb also gives out bad cards.

I wouldn't say lookout *always* works. Because there are a few cases where the engine just isn't good enough without an attack to slow down the opponent, and in that case Lookout doesn't serve that purpose whereas Amb does.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:34:13 pm by ftl »
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #206 on: August 20, 2013, 10:34:54 pm »
+2

Trashing/Junking is way more important early. The earlier these happen, the more often you see better cards/your opponent sees worse cards. In games where deck size is important (which isn't every game, but if you're thinking of opening lookout or amb it should be), you want to do it as early as possible. Even if you have to sacrifice early buys to do it. Your single trashed card from lookout is pretty bad in comparison to the 2-3 card swing from amb. Missing a silver buy is usually well worth the early swing in deck size.

Now, is it possible that basically everyone who I consider to be an expert on the game agrees that amb is one of the strongest cards in the game while lookout is just mediocre is wrong? I guess. Is it likely? No.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #207 on: August 20, 2013, 10:38:12 pm »
+1

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.
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eHalcyon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #208 on: August 20, 2013, 10:41:25 pm »
0

Yeah, from looking at the game logs, you are attributing to luck what should really be attributed to superior trashing and junking from Ambassador.
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ragingduckd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #209 on: August 20, 2013, 10:46:59 pm »
+1

The problem with this test is that SCSN was an 87% favorite from an even start. According to the Isotropish numbers anyway.

But now that I really think about it, it's not that easy to even construct a kingdom where Lookout beats Ambassador. That is, without forcing the players to open Amb/Amb or Lookout/Lookout, come up with eight other cards such that a player who's allowed to buy Lookout beats one who's allowed to buy Ambassador.

Anyone have a clear example? Here's my first thought:

A shelters/Province game with Cultist, Counterfeit, no villages, and no cursers. But that's cheating really, since I'm making both cards sort of irrelevant.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:50:03 pm by ragingduckd »
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #210 on: August 20, 2013, 10:50:14 pm »
0

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.

fair enough. but i also could've had the province several turns earlier with a little bit of luck. and again, he has a 6,5k rating (and 4* as many games as me), i used to have a 6k rating, then stopped playing and now have 5,5k rating. that's a gigantic difference. he is a lot better at the game, so i probably did a lot more mistakes executing the dual lookouts than he did executing his dual amb.

but analysing our game is definitely a legit way to go. i would have to go over the second game in detail to determain how much of it is superior skill and how much of it is superior strength of ambassador

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #211 on: August 20, 2013, 10:54:48 pm »
+1

http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Lookout

Kids these days, always needing to have things done for them...

Amb had 6 openings at +5 or greater. Lookout had 1. If we extend the threshold to +4 or greater, Amb had 21 while Lookout had 3.

In the meantime, two new expansions got released, but there's still no way that Lookout is better than Amb on most boards.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #212 on: August 20, 2013, 10:58:39 pm »
0

http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Lookout

Kids these days, always needing to have things done for them...

Amb had 6 openings at +5 or greater. Lookout had 1. If we extend the threshold to +4 or greater, Amb had 21 while Lookout had 3.

In the meantime, two new expansions got released, but there's still no way that Lookout is better than Amb on most boards.

i don't think you read my very detailed explanation as to why these sorts of arguments are invalid. i wont write the same WoT again, so you may look it up on the page prior.

and i actually have to get up at 11.30 am tomorrow and it's 5am here, so i'm off for today.

gn8 ^_^

dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #213 on: August 20, 2013, 11:14:55 pm »
+1

i don't think you read my very detailed explanation as to why these sorts of arguments are invalid. i wont write the same WoT again, so you may look it up on the page prior.

Your "very detailed explanation" is nothing but nonsense. Dominion doesn't have a very dynamic metagame. Perceptions of card strength can fluctuate greatly following the release of new expansions, but Seaside has been released for years and the relative positions of Lookout and Ambassador are very well established.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #214 on: August 20, 2013, 11:23:03 pm »
+1

I am going to be direct here, because I am tired. If it comes off as rude, I apologize.

Quote
meh, that is paper thin argumentation again. what if you open with dual ambassador, i open with dual lookout, we both draw both our action cards with 3 coppers. i can get rid of 2 of my 3 estates in the turn, buy a silver or a third lookout and have all the new cards come again super quickly, because lookouts shorten the repeat cycle. you, on the other hand, just get rid of 2 coppers, give me one copper, and can't buy anything and your next turn will be just as bad because there are 3 estates left to draw

Okay, so if you have optimal shuffle luck and I have the worst possible shuffle luck, you win? That's great, but it works backwards too:
You draw Lookout/E/E/C/C on turn three, play Lookout, reveal C/C/Lookout, do the obvious thing. Turn 4 you draw Lookout/C/C/C/E.
I draw Amb/E/E/C/C. Turn 4 I draw Amb/E/C/C/C.
So, when I have optimal shuffle luck, I win too! So, yeah, I found the argument not convincing.


Quote
the way i would approach it is different. i'd try to figure out the amount of trashing per damage done, let's call it p/x. p can simply defined as difference of bad cards in both players decks, where as x would be the amount of damage that the turn in which you play it suffers. for lookout we can give it 1p/1x.

now let's try it for ambassador. i can give it 2,5p, because you get rid of 1-2 bad cards and your enemy gains 1 bad card. the amount of x has to be the estimated amount of damage compared to the one of lookout.

and that is really high. because once you got rid of your estates, you will have to return copper, which, if you don't want $2 cards, makes your turn completely useless. so i could give it somewhere between 2, while there are estates, and somewhere at 4, if it makes your turn useless. so that would be ~2,5/3,2. according to that, lookout is better. now obviously, you need about twice as many lookouts then ambassadors to make that work, but since you have more money in very early turns, you can get them. very early $3 instead of $2 is enough to have one additional lookout for the rest of the game.

Okay, as I said earlier, Lookout/Lookout is actually not much better for your economy than Amb/Amb. (Although I was wrong earlier, you get 2.9 coin per turn, not 2.3)
Basically, you with double lookout, you either get 2 $3 turns or a $4/$2  in the likely case. That sucks. Now, Amb/Amb gets like 1/3, which is horrendous. However, Amb/Amb has already removed 3 cards from its deck, unlike LO/LO.

Lets examine a possible (around the average case) deck composition after 4 turns:
Amb player: C/C/C/C/C/E/E/Amb/Amb/[$3 card]
Lookout player: C/C/C/C/C/C/C/E/E/E/Lookout/Lookout/[$3]/[$3]

That Ambassador deck sure looks more attractive to me.
So maybe the ambassadors collide, yeah, but generally you open like Amb/Cantrip or as in my last post, Amb/Lookout would be a great opening.

Quote
now, obviously, this doesn't proof anything, it's just my line of thinking if i try to go onto the subject analyitcally. but also, what if there are shelters? what if there are no +action cards (exept necropolis)? lookout always works, and in the statistic there are dark ages cards, so those cases have to be taken into consideration. it's about how often we would almost never buy it and i would never buy ambassador if there are shelters, and very rarely without proper action setups.

Yes, there are edge cases. Amb is pretty bad with shelters. But shelters are only there like 1/7 games. That's not many. And if there are no villages, why do you want to slim down with lookout so much? Building some sort of cantrip/nonterminal draw engine? 90% of the time, I would still rather have ambassador, because I'll slim down faster and slow down my opponent. When I'm done slimming, I have a dead card, lookout is dead even earlier.

Now, Lookout is not a bad card. It's a trasher after all. But that's all it does. Trash. Slowly. One card at a time. Cards like Ambassador trash quickly and junk the opponents. Steward is great as well, because it trashes super quickly, and it's not a dead card later.

I would be interested in hearing a quick sentence of your thoughts on chapel.
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Kirian

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #215 on: August 21, 2013, 12:20:14 am »
0

...which is no argument whatsoever.

Data and science are not arguments?

Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.

now you are really messing up defininitions. to resolve this dispute without accessing in petty arguments i have to elaborate really far. the problem here is that dominion, similiar to a lot of games present in esport, is an incredibly complex game which noone (that includes professional gamers (if there are any) and creators) can fully grasp. that means that, unless two cards can be compared in a very narrow scale (like village vs worker village) you can't ever reach a final conclusion. the game is played by humans whose valuations are very much flawed, f.e. a lot of newer players wouldn't think that the chapel is as strong as we currently belief that it is. this means that "most people think..." doesn't work, so you have to narrow it down to the high skill level.

unfortunately, opinions on high level gaming is defined by the so called metagame. i dont know if that term is common for dominion, but it can be used the same way. the metagame is the common belief about how the game should be played. such a thing exists because high level players don't play isolated but share their knowledge and opinions on places like this. the problem is, dominion is way too young to have it's metagame static, and because the kingdoms are different every time it's also extremely complex and dynamic even in comparison to a lot of RTS games. if there wouldn't be any new extensions for, let's say, 5 years, a lot of things would change, some cards would gain a lot of popularity and some cards would lose some, until the point is reached where we discover what is actually strong. that point is far off.

one of this cards could be lookout. this means that these kinds of arguments never prove anything, and more specifically "data and science" is confusing, because we don't have any data about perfectly played games, we only have data of players playing in a specific metagame - the current metagame.

again, all of this doesn't mean that i'm right. but these kinds of arguments "general opinion", "statstics" or "winrates of cards" aren't valid to disproof quality judgements about cards. they can be used to make statements about probability, but you can never proof anything. if you could, i wouldn't even have stated that i think lookout is underrated in the first place. the very term "underrated" only makes sense because common belief is not a universal truth.

Your "very detailed explanation" is nothing but nonsense.

I'm going to go one step farther than dondon and say that it is in fact obfuscatory nonsense.  When your argument tries to rest on "Hey, you can't prove anything, therefore everything is relative, therefore I might be right," then your rhetoric is severely flawed.

Anyone have the ability to simulate these with a naive BM?  I'm not sure how well the simulators are working nowadays.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #216 on: August 21, 2013, 12:30:21 am »
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The simulator would work fine, but I really doubt that BM+Ambassador vs BM+Lookout has anything to do with real play. They're both engine cards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #217 on: August 21, 2013, 12:57:35 am »
+1

Silverspawn, you're right that the fact that many people believe a thing to be true does not make it true.

But, look, there's several objective ways to tell whether one is better than other. The first being, play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking) (EDIT: Who designed this card raking: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8693.0), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently floating around in there in the top 10 or 20 or so. These are the people who win more games than anyone else. These people were also at the top of the Isotropic rankings when that was a thing, so this is no accident--these are actually the best online Dominion players. Objectively, they win the most games.

I am confident that every single one of these people will tell you that Ambassador is a much better card than Lookout.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:04:07 am by Robz888 »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #218 on: August 21, 2013, 01:01:39 am »
0

...play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently...

This isn't WanderingWinder's rankings...
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StrongRhino

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #219 on: August 21, 2013, 01:02:17 am »
0

Silverspawn, you're right that the fact that many people believe a thing to be true does not make it true.

But, look, there's several objective ways to tell whether one is better than other. The first being, play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently floating around in there in the top 10 or 20 or so. These are the people who win more games than anyone else. These people were also at the top of the Isotropic rankings when that was a thing, so this is no accident--these are actually the best online Dominion players. Objectively, they win the most games.


I am confident that every single one of these people will tell you that Ambassador is a much better card than Lookout.
Adding to this, you even admit that SCSN is a better player than you, doesn't that help prove that Amb is better when players better than you say it is?

Oh, and Robz, this is the  $3 Card List, not WW's rankings. EDIT: Ninja'd
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:04:14 am by StrongRhino »
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #220 on: August 21, 2013, 01:19:33 am »
+7

the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.

You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.

fair enough. but i also could've had the province several turns earlier with a little bit of luck. and again, he has a 6,5k rating (and 4* as many games as me), i used to have a 6k rating, then stopped playing and now have 5,5k rating. that's a gigantic difference. he is a lot better at the game, so i probably did a lot more mistakes executing the dual lookouts than he did executing his dual amb.

but analysing our game is definitely a legit way to go. i would have to go over the second game in detail to determain how much of it is superior skill and how much of it is superior strength of ambassador

I think the main reason he's a lot better is because he knows Ambassador is better than Lookout, tbh.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #221 on: August 21, 2013, 03:55:42 am »
+1

It is the generally agreement of dozens of players with a combined hundred thousand plus games...

...which is no argument whatsoever. it's also a general agreement of billions of people that there is a god and that democracy is the superior form of goverment and i disagree with both of those statements, and so do millions of others.
But billions of people aren't experts in philosophy or politics. People here saying that Ambassador is superior to Lookout are experts in Dominion. There's a difference.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #222 on: August 21, 2013, 04:36:10 am »
+1

but i just compared it to ambassador because he's #1. the actual joke is that even steward is higher than lookout which makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

You could repeat that experiment by playing someone who opens Steward / Steward versus your Lookout / Lookout.
You'll be very surprised because it's a great opening on many boards.
The versatility of Steward gives you both strong trashing and early 5$ hands. Not to mention that Steward is still useful later in the game.

You also ignore versatility in your Ambassador discussion entirely. You seem to forget that I don't HAVE to return two coppers. If I'm desperate for Silver I'll just return 1 or 0 coppers, get a Silver and still junk you. But early economy isn't the most important thing in Ambassador games anyway as I want to play my Ambassadors as often as possible and once I've won the Ambassador war I'll have a very slim deck and slingshot myself into Gold territory very quickly whereas the other player will never get any kind of control over their bloated deck.

Also you worry too much about terminal collision. Sure, Lookouts can't collide, but if the card just does so little for you then I don't care.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2013, 10:46:08 am »
+7

Guys, I think it's time for us to all just accept that Lookout is way better than Ambassador. The word of the best players doesn't convince silverspawn. The rational arguments put forward don't convince silverspawn. Even playing test games can't convince silverspawn. Those are pretty much the only avenues of proof we have. If none of them convinced him that Ambassador is usually the better card, then silverspawn must be right. Q.E.D.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2013, 10:59:09 am »
+6

You're probably all forgetting to take into account the huge boon Lookout got with its synergy with Mystic when Dark Ages came out.
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ragingduckd

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #225 on: August 21, 2013, 11:03:47 am »
+11

Well, at least we've made Silverspawn feel welcome. ;)

FYI, Silverspawn this is just how we do business here. Welcome to the forums and congrats on stimulating your first strategy discussion. :D
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #226 on: August 21, 2013, 08:09:00 pm »
0

we actually played 2 games with double amb vs dual lookout and both of them very incredibly close early game and both of them he eventually won, but he's just better at this game, so it doesn't disproof or proof anything

all of that doesn't mean that ambassador isn't in fact better, but i still don't see it and what you wrote here doesn't exactly help making me believe anything.

Now you should play two more games with you taking amb/amb and him taking lookout/lookout.

It wouldn't prove anything either, but it would be interesting to see.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #227 on: August 22, 2013, 09:45:19 am »
+1

Why are we even talking about Lookout/Lookout vs. Ambassador/Ambassador? Even if Lookout/Lookout is the better opening (which I doubt), it doesn't give an indication that Lookout is better overall. It only suggests that Lookout is effective against Ambassador when both are on the board.

Look at Bishop vs. Gardens. Bishop practically hard counters a Gardens rush, but that has little to do with why it might be better than Gardens. Gosh.

Back to Lookout/Lookout vs. Amb/Amb, how is Lookout supposed to thin the deck with the junk being passed by Ambassador? The Ambassador player can typically get rid of 3 cards before the second reshuffle. The Lookout player can barely get a net junk card decrease of 1 before the second reshuffle.

Of course, the better opening depends on the board. If there is a great engine available, the Ambassador player has an additional attack in the form of Ambassador, and the Lookout player probably can't keep up without an Ambassador of their own. On the other hand, if the dominant strategy is Big Money+X or something, the Lookout opening probably has better chances.

Did we really have to necro this thread?
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Witherweaver

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #228 on: August 22, 2013, 09:47:36 am »
+5

..how is Lookout supposed to thin the deck with the junk being passed by Ambassador? ...

By buying a third lookout, obviously.
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eliegel34

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #229 on: August 22, 2013, 01:56:30 pm »
+2

Lookout also isn't vulnerable to Possession, so yep its better  ;).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #230 on: August 22, 2013, 02:23:04 pm »
0

Lookout also isn't vulnerable to Possession, so yep its better  ;).

Technically, they can set up your next hand a little bit and discard your good cards.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #231 on: August 23, 2013, 11:22:19 am »
+1

Well, at least we've made Silverspawn feel welcome. ;)

FYI, Silverspawn this is just how we do business here. Welcome to the forums and congrats on stimulating your first strategy discussion. :D

thanks. i wrote another long reply yesterday, but when i was about to post it i realised it's not worth the effort; i'd have to answer yet another 20 different replies and the time is spent more productively actually playing dominion. also, a part of what makes discussions interesting is the possibility of being proven wrong which was not going to happen. so you may all consider the ratings a universal truth or whatever, i'll mb come back when i hit 6,5k+ rating

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards
« Reply #232 on: August 23, 2013, 11:42:01 am »
+3

also, a part of what makes discussions interesting is the possibility of being proven wrong which was not going to happen.

When your argument tries to rest on "Hey, you can't prove anything, therefore everything is relative, therefore I might be right," then your rhetoric is severely flawed.

We presented plenty of objective data, some of which you were literally present for (although several more games would have been a good idea), some of which came about through actual data analysis of hundreds of thousands of games.  We also presented subjective data based on multiple top players' experience; your dismissal of that is based on the metagame of a very different game.  (Starcraft has as much in common with Dominion as either game has in common with Minecraft.)

so you may all consider the ratings a universal truth or whatever, i'll mb come back when i hit 6,5k+ rating

I sincerely wish you good luck with that.  Getting into the top 20 on this leaderboard is probably a better goal, though the two are pretty well correlated.  I strongly suspect, however, that going after Lookout in the presence of other trashers will hamper that goal.
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