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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 59936 times)

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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #125 on: January 16, 2013, 02:16:41 am »
+1

My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.

I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong.  Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.

That's a good point. I am probably slightly undervaluing Hermit, but there are still many boards, I don't want it. Unlike Jack where I almost always want it because it is just that good...Unless, there is a strong engine on the board that can outrace Jack.

Jack is good, but its not THAT good. 4 provinces in 14 turns is decently fast, but there's a lot that tops that. EDIT: I should say jacks big strength in big money comes from resistance to greening. It can plow through 6 7 or 8 provinces faster than a lot of other big monies. So if you're working on an alt VP engine, you have less time to get those points in before provinces drain.

The way I see hermit is sort of like a jack for engines. Jack is really good all around for big money, with some limited uses in engines. Hermit is going to be really good in a lot of engines (particularly ones with cheap parts or ways to gain cards other than buys) and it should have limited uses in slower big money boards.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 02:19:09 am by jonts26 »
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #126 on: January 16, 2013, 03:13:54 am »
+1

Mercenary is a beast in games with no trashing.

Storeroom is underrated. It's really one of the best card of the "discard-for-benefit family". It's better than vault in many engines because of the +buy and the cheap cost.

But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year (last year 3rd) and I stand by that. 2VP is simply amazing for $3. I don't know why on this forum there is a consensus to rank victory cards so low. After all, you win only by victory points... And a strategy involving tunnel creates a very nice point lead.

On the overrated list, Market square. Yeah you gain a gold but this time with no VP... you simply lose one good card from your hand for a later gold. I don't know where market square is ranked, but #11 is already too high.

Black market is probably overrated a little bit and do not forget that swindler is a lot weaker with dark ages (shelters, cultist, fortress, rats, etc).

EDIT : I forgot forager. Forager is awesome. Really too low on this list.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 03:16:37 am by brokoli »
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Piemaster

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #127 on: January 16, 2013, 07:45:10 am »
+3

But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year

I acknowledge that Tunnel may be underrated, but really, 1st?  Better than Ambassador?  Better than Fishing Village?
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Jimmmmm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #128 on: January 16, 2013, 07:58:16 am »
0

I think the the Tunnel Strategy is overrated, that is buying heaps of Tunnels and discarding cards often leaves you with a clogged up deck (depends of course on what the discarding cards are), but maybe Tunnel as a card is underrated, and if so this could be a contributing factor.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #129 on: January 16, 2013, 08:28:35 am »
+1

But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year (last year 3rd) and I stand by that. 2VP is simply amazing for $3. I don't know why on this forum there is a consensus to rank victory cards so low. After all, you win only by victory points... And a strategy involving tunnel creates a very nice point lead.

Ok, let's say you go for a strategy involving Tunnel and I don't.  You need 7 tunnels to overcome a 5-3 province split.  And most of the time if you get 7 tunnels, you won't get 3 provinces.  So then it becomes, how many tunnels can you get, while still getting 4 provinces.  And unless you have a really good way of discarding it (Ie. Embassy, Vault... that's about it. EDIT: And warehouse.) while still buying good cards, you will probably be slower to get to 4 provinces.  So the other guy, if he needs to can simply buy a duchy or two.

Basically what I'm saying is that YES if you hit 3 late and you would buy an Estate, you should buy a tunnel instead.  But unless you can reliably use its discard, it's certainly a trap.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 08:29:49 am by Powerman »
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serakfalcon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #130 on: January 16, 2013, 08:34:48 am »
0

Quote
Ok, let's say you go for a strategy involving Tunnel and I don't.  You need 7 tunnels to overcome a 5-3 province split.  And most of the time if you get 7 tunnels, you won't get 3 provinces.  So then it becomes, how many tunnels can you get, while still getting 4 provinces.  And unless you have a really good way of discarding it (Ie. Embassy, Vault... that's about it. EDIT: And warehouse.) while still buying good cards, you will probably be slower to get to 4 provinces.  So the other guy, if he needs to can simply buy a duchy or two.

Yeah, Tunnel is really only worth it if you can use it to rapidly gain golds and win the province split. If you have a slow discarder you probably won't make it. Also, at 5/3 split you can still win if you're up by duchies, though its harder.
Tunnel/Hamlet/Smithy/Remodel => Profit!
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2013, 09:07:13 am »
+1

Single Tunnels are also a cheap, efficient way to ramp up engine economy with the proper support.

But without support, they're basically just a low cost pile of Victory cards, and I don't think that being a Victory card is really a trait that deserves merit. It's more or less strategically dead on such boards.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2013, 09:30:49 am »
0

I too think tunnel is bit low, not much though. The big thing about tunnel is simply the 2 VP for $3. That alone is a great VP-to-cost ratio (about between Duchy and Province), so even without the discard thing it would be a good card.

Now, the discard effect is a bit overrated in general and needs some support to be really strong, but as an add-on to an already more than decent victory card, it's more than just icing on the cake.
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2013, 10:22:28 am »
0

Mercenary is a beast in games with no trashing.

Black market is probably overrated a little bit and do not forget that swindler is a lot weaker with dark ages (shelters, cultist, fortress, rats, etc).


I disagree that mercenary is a beast in games with no other trashing. Ideally you want to get it with another attack, so there needs to be another decent attack on the board. Otherwise, its a little like waiting for two treasure maps to collide. Even still it could easily turn 5 be or later until you gain your trasher. Starting to trash this late is WAY sub-optimal. At least with treasure maps, you get to buy a province immediately.

Sure, urchin/mercenary can be strong in games where engine possibilities are stronger than money possibilities and there are no other trashing options and you have some way to get your urchin upgraded early.

But, that's a lot of ifs. Give me lookout any day, I love that card, especially with draw-to-X, like minion/library/jack.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 10:24:43 am by DrFlux »
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2013, 10:31:07 am »
0

Treasure Maps are dead cards until they collide.  Urchins are cantrips which do attack.  I know the attack often hits an estate, but not always.

It is better when there's another attack though.  I used Mercenary in a Minion game recently, and that worked well for thinning my deck.  Keep in mind that hitting with Urchin before Minion effectively protects them from the Minion attack though (picking your best 4 of 5 cards is significantly better than being handed 4 random cards).

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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2013, 10:47:20 am »
0

Its true, urchin's aren't dead, but if you are depending on mercinary to get an edge over a money player, the probabilities of colliding them are only a little better.

You wouldn't usually buy a village first two turns, why would you buy an urchin first two turns?

Okay, so then there are not 2 urchins/other attacks in your deck till after the second reshuffle. So say around turn 5 or 6. Then you have to collide them, while still having an extra action. So really its more like turn 7 or 8 on average when you mange to collide them (without other enablers). That's awful.

I agree Minion is not a bad example of a case you would want them. After you've bought a minion or two you don't want more silvers anyways. Even then it doesn't do much unless you have a village on the board too, as the attack doesn't do much in this context, and you ideally want to be able to grab another 4 cards with minion after trashing. Also, you wouldn't want to buy more than one urchin, as it kind of hurts your minion attack.
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KingsSkort

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #136 on: January 16, 2013, 10:55:18 am »
0

I too think tunnel is bit low, not much though. The big thing about tunnel is simply the 2 VP for $3. That alone is a great VP-to-cost ratio (about between Duchy and Province), so even without the discard thing it would be a good card.

Now, the discard effect is a bit overrated in general and needs some support to be really strong, but as an add-on to an already more than decent victory card, it's more than just icing on the cake.

VP-to-cost ratio is a nearly irrelevant measurement. Sure, if you have $15 and 5 buys, you should buy 5 tunnels and not 3 duchies, but that doesn't come up very often. VP-to-dead cards ratio is very important though, and tunnel is bad at it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #137 on: January 16, 2013, 08:29:51 pm »
0

Tunnel is just one of those cards taht requires a combo to be good, and with some of those combos it is incredible. (vault/embassy)

From my playing with urchin, I've found it a great pick up if you get a mid game 3 (or upgrade and estate or something).  Many engines without trashing choke/fall flat after the first province or 2.  A Mercenary in a functional engine ensures it will keep going and also that you'll be playing a militia every turn.

That being said, it requires another attack.  (fantastic with sea hag or young witch battles)  But it is rarely worth opening urchin.  The opportunity cost is just too high.

Oh, urchin is a very nice addition to a council room or governer deck of course
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2013, 11:58:48 am »
0

I agree with this post. But I think the fact that it ALREADY requires a functioning engine, and preferably another attack, and is something you get somewhat late makes urchin not a very good card. There are TONS of bad cards that can be incorporated into a functioning engine to gain an advantage. Heck, I've had games where the difference between winning/losing was the ability to leverage spy and/or thief in an engine. That doesn't make spy and thief good cards. Urchin is a little bit flashier, but roughly the same argument applies.


From my playing with urchin, I've found it a great pick up if you get a mid game 3 (or upgrade and estate or something).  Many engines without trashing choke/fall flat after the first province or 2.  A Mercenary in a functional engine ensures it will keep going and also that you'll be playing a militia every turn.

That being said, it requires another attack.  (fantastic with sea hag or young witch battles)  But it is rarely worth opening urchin.  The opportunity cost is just too high.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2013, 06:40:20 pm »
+3

Here's the video link:


The Best $3 Cards - Part 3/3
#11 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 60.5% / Median: 64.5% / Standard Deviation: 20.3%
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 90.3% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 22.6% (2x), 19.4% (1x), 16.1% (1x)

The upper third starts with the next Dark Ages card. It has a high deviation like most of the Dark Ages cards in this list and has even a second rank. Hermit had 11 votes below average.

Some call it already "Jack-of-all-Trades light". Trashing from your discard pile is great, especially in cursing games and therefore even better than JaoT's trashing ability. It can also gain Silver, but also more Hermits or whatever you want for $3 less, the gaining is therefore even more flexible. On the other side it cannot defend against discarding attacks or top-decking attacks like Jack can. But it can transform into a Madmen. a double-your-handsize village which is great on boards with +Buy and also not so great on boards with discarding attacks. So, alltogether it's a very versatile card.
#10 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 62.1% / Median: 67.7% / Standard Deviation: 18.4%
Highest Value(s): 93.5% (2x), 87.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.3% (2x), 25.8% (1x), 20.0% (1x)

And here's the best placed Dark Ages card and it has the lowest deviation of all Dark Ages cards in this list with only 4 votes in the lower third and 12 votes in the lower half.

Market Square is 2 ranks above Tunnel, the other Gold gaining card costing $3. The Gold gaining is even easier to activate on average than with Tunnel and it's a cantrip, so it doesn't hurt if you don't draw it with a trashing card. Market Square + Masquerade is great because you can convert Coppers into Golds and you can still play Market Square for the cantrip +buy if you want to. Speaking of cantrip +Buy. On every board where you want +Buy, a cantrip +Buy alone is even reason enough gaining one Market Square. And Market Square is great as a defense against trashing attacks like Swindler or Knights.
#9 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 64.9% ▼3.5pp / Median: 64.5% ▼7.5pp / Standard Deviation: 14.0% ▲0.4pp
Highest Value(s): 90.3% (1x), 88.0% (1x), 83.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 36.0% (1x), 32.3% (1x), 25.8% (1x)

Scheme lost one rank to last year and also a decent amount of points. It was voted below average 9 times.

Scheme is a cantrip and mostly don't hurt in your deck as long as you don't draw it dead. But how big is the benefit? If you're building an engine around a key card (like Hunting Party), Scheme is very handy as you can be sure to have that card in hand nearly every turn. With +Buy you could even buy more Schemes to add to your engine. Even with a simpler strategy, but a strong attack, Scheme is very nice, as is basically replaces the second copy of that strong attack card and you eliminate the possibility of colliding. As Double Ambassador is already a strong opening, on those boards you really want to open Ambassador/Scheme and you can later use the Scheme to top deck another card if you want to, so it's no surprise that Ambassador/Scheme is on #70 ▼27 of the best openings. Be aware of Minion, as Minion could completely destroy your top-decking. Scrying Pool + Scheme is good, Golem + Scheme + strong attack is strong and King's Court + Scheme is just crazy. On the other hand, in big money games or with very thin decks, Scheme is not worth a buy and you better buy a Silver.
#8 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 69.4% ▲10.5pp / Median: 74.2% ▲14.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.9% ▲1.3pp
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 96.0% (1x), 93.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 45.2% (1x), 44.0% (1x), 6.7% (1x)

We're crossing a gap of nearly 5pp and there's Watchtower, this year's winner. It only went up 2 ranks, but is over 10pp better than last year. It even gained consensus and has only 4 votes below average with one big outlier. In the unweighted ranking it would even be one rank higher.

Watchtower is the best of the 3 Reaction cards close together. Watchtower is very versatile what makes it a great card. At first it can draw up to 6 cards what makes it a worse Library and is great in Hamlet, Fishing Village, Festival or other decks where the non-terminals draw equal or less cards than you discard. Then it is even an Smithy equivalent. Even if two Watchtowers collide you can use the Reaction part from the second Watchtower for the card you buy. You can put your new card on top of your deck and have it in your hand in the next turn. But Watchtower is even a better defense card. The strongest attacks are Cursing and Discarding Attacks. You can trash the gained Curses immediately and can draw to a more than full hand after discarding. And, with one of the discarding attacks it combos too: Goons / Watchtower is great as you can buy additional Coppers or Curses for VPs and can trash them immediately without clogging up. And now with Dark Ages it got a big boost. With a gainer you can trigger all the on-trash effects on gain. This allows crazy stuff like playing a Goons and a Familiar turn 3 with Squire or gain a Fortress with Workshop and put it directly into your hand or remodel into a Cultist just to trash it and draw 3 cards.
#7 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 70.8% ▼5.5pp / Median: 74.2% ▼1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0% ▼8.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.0% (1x), 92.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 38.7% (1x), 29.0% (1x), 6.5% (1x)

Warehouse is on the same rank as last year, but lost a lot of points. But it even lost more consensus with some big outliers in the lower range. It was voted 6 times below average and would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.

Warehouse is the better Cellar, it is a very useful deck sifter. You can draw 3 cards and discard the most useless ones. It's also a card that works fine with Tunnel and of course with any Attack (Sea Hag / Warehouse is better than Sea Hag / Silver on #102 ▼4) as it is non-terminal and can draw your terminals more often. It's also great if you want cards together that gain strength when they collide, like Fool's Gold or Treasure Map. Because you have one card less in hand after you played it, it synergizes with "draw up to" cards (JaoT/Warehouse is better than JaoT/Silver on #82 ▲44) And you can even play it if your hand is good and discard the useless cards on top of your deck (which are coincidental there or from any Attack like Rabble). It loses power on boards with discard attacks, but with cursing attacks it's great. It's a great addition to any deck which isn't a terminal draw Big Money deck.
#6 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 79.5% ▲1.1pp / Median: 83.9% ▲3.9pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3% ▼5.4pp
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 93.5% (1x), 90.3% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.5% (1x), 32.0% (1x), 19.4% (1x)

Now we're making a big jump of over 8pp to the top cards. Steward lost a rank, but still has a higher ranking than last time.

Steward's strength is its flexibility. It's one of the rare trashers that are good openers and still good later in the game, in this case for $2 or 2 cards. It leads to very difficult decisions (Steward and 4 Coppers: Trashing or Gold?) but either decision is strong. And it is also rare for a non-attack card that is terminal to say about: "It is usually a good buy" (even though it's the opening buy) Tournament / Steward is currently the best Steward opening at #39 ▲1.
#5 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 80.9% ▲2.9pp / Median: 84.0% ▲4.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.7% ▼2.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.8% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.5% (1x), 32.3% (1x), 16.7% (1x)

Swindler is one rank higher than last year and now in the Top 5. It was voted on the first rank once and on the other side 3 times below average.

Swindler is the third $3 Attack and this time it is a good one. It's a great opening buy and can turn the Coppers of the opponents into Curses (Swindler + Chapel is around #81 and Tournament + Swindler on #109). Later in the game it can turn the new good $5 cards into Duchies. With special cards on the board, the punishing can even be worse, like swindling the only Potion into a Treasure Map or Coppersmith or vice versa, turning the Sea Hag into a Potion. But it's highly luck-dependant. Both players may open Swindler and one can turn the other Swindler into a Chancellor. Or you hit 3 Coppers and turn them into Curses and your opponent hit 3 Estates and turn them into ... Estates. Bad luck! With Dark Ages, Swindler is even more luck-dependant, hitting an Overgrown Estate let your opponent draw a card and trash it without replacement. Of course you can decrease bad luck by adding a Spy-like attack, but most of the time it's not worth it. Beware with Peddler on board. Trashing a Province and turning into a Peddler, great. Hitting a Peddler when the Peddlers are out, bad! And beware in the end game. Hitting a Curse when the Curses are out is suboptimal, but hitting a Province and giving your opponent the last Province, can win or lose you the game.
#4 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 85.8% ▲2.5pp / Median: 87.1% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 8.8% ▲2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 96.8% (2x), 96.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 64.0% (2x), 58.1% (1x), 54.8% (1x)

Menagerie is the last card in this list that didn't have a first rank. But it has a better rating than last year and much more agreement. It has the third lost deviation in this list. It is also the first card with no rank below average.

Menagerie can be very strong, a double-Laboratory, or only a cantrip. Ok, it only hurts when you draw it dead, but it sill needs enablers like cards that can discard (best: non-terminal like Warehouse or Hamlet) or heavy-trashing (to get rid of your Coppers) to use its full strength. Its best use may be to counter Discarding attacks. After a Militia or Goons attacks, just play Menagerie and you have a 5-card-hand again. Of course it's also good if there are many good cards on the board you want to have, or you buy many good cards out of the Black Market deck, so you can maximize the possibilty to have different cards in the deck. In comparism to Warehouse its not always a good addition to your deck, but when it is, it's so good. You definitely need luck to enable it, but you get different cards so fast and if you get rid of your Coppers, that's often the case.
#3 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 92.2% ▲1.1pp / Median: 93.5% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 8.3% ▼2.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (4x) / Lowest Value(s): 83.9% (1x), 71.0% (1x), 41.9% (1x)

We're in the Top 3 and there's the next bigger gap of over 6pp. Fishing Village has a better rating than last year, but lost consensus. Still it's the card with the lowest deviation in this list. It has one big outlier in the lower half.

What makes Fishing Village a good village, one of the best in the game? It hasn't 2 of the biggest problems in combination with villages. 1.) A Smithy-Village chain still may lack the money. FV gives money instead of a card. 2.) You draw 2 terminals with no village in hand. FV gives also an additional action in the following turn and therefore a total of 3 actions, minimizing the chances of not being able to play colliding terminals. So, if you're definitely going to build an unstoppable engine, buy as many FVs as you can. FV / Wharf is so much superior than Smithy / Village and FV / Torturer can hurt so much. You only don't want to buy it if you're going BM, because then you have basically a Lighthouse if you don't use the +Actions. Fishing Village / Masquerade is currently the best opening on #62 ▼7.
#2 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 93.9% ▼1.3pp / Median: 96.7% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9% ▼5.1pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (9x) / Lowest Value(s): 76.0% (2x), 64.5% (1x), 38.7% (1x)

Masquerade is another time on the second rank. And it lost a little bit in points, but especially it lost in consensus. With 9 votes on the first rank, there's no doubt on its strength.

At first it seems so harmless (at least to me). Even though it is no attack by definition, most of the times it feels like it is one. I cannot desribe the power of Masquerade better than theory did: "By drawing 2 cards, Masquerade combines solid buying power with its deck-thinning, thus allowing you to improve your deck along two axes at once." It's a hard counter to cursing attacks, so you may even choose not to go for the cursing attack with Masquerade on the board. And if you have a discarding attack and play Masquerade afterwards it's even a harder attack, allowing the (in)famous Masquerade pin. It dominates nearly all games; it's great for simple Big Money and it's great in engines too and it's a defense against cursing what do you want more? And Tournament / Masquerade is #8 =0 in the best openings list.
#1 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 97.5% =0 / Median: 100% =0 / Standard Deviation: 10.2% ▼4.6pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (37x) / Lowest Value(s): 68.0% (1x), 54.8% (1x), 51.6% (1x)

Ambassador is the #1 and it has even the same points as last year. It was voted first by so many that there is not much doubt.

Let's start Ambassador war! In some games the ping-pong of Estates of Coppers is so important that you rather risk open Double-Ambassador and colliding two Ambassadors instead of losing the Ambassador war. Some say it's undercosted and the best attack relative to its cost. You can even buy a curse and turn Ambassador into a Curser. If you lose Ambassador war badly, there's no good chance to recover and building a good engine. But beware: Don't forget building up your own economy. Your opponent is flooded with Coppers and Estates. But he can buy good cards too, so don't forget that. But the power is undeniable. Tournament / Ambassador is #2 ▲1, Caravan / Ambassador is #7 =0 and Spice Merchant / Ambassador #20 ▼2 in the openings list with many other good Ambassador openings to come (Double-Ambassador is #48 ▲13 and the best double opening).

Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #140 on: January 22, 2013, 06:45:13 pm »
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I have absolutely no idea about the utility of those two Dark Ages cards, but other that, yep.

I think I had Warehouse better than Swindler and Steward, but I'm not so sure about that.

Everything else looks good.
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Wingnut

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #141 on: January 22, 2013, 07:10:10 pm »
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I don't remember what I voted, but I would now, with more Dark Ages experience, put Masquerade over Ambassador. The combination of Shelters and the way things combo with DA I feel like Masq into engine is just so much better at ramping up the engine in DA games while Ambassador isn't significantly better in non-DA games. Still, it's close.
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #142 on: January 22, 2013, 07:42:21 pm »
+1

I'd say that menagerie is a bit high; it's never been super awesome in my experience, even in a game I just played with hamlet on the board.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #143 on: January 22, 2013, 07:52:40 pm »
+2

I'd say that menagerie is a bit high; it's never been super awesome in my experience, even in a game I just played with hamlet on the board.

There are few things in Dominion better than activating 3 or more Menageries in a row.
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #144 on: January 22, 2013, 08:01:18 pm »
+1

By three in a row, do you mean without playing anything else in between? Because I'm pretty sure that says more about the power of shuffle luck than that of menagerie.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #145 on: January 22, 2013, 08:07:07 pm »
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Activating 3 consecutive Menageries is easy with support. A lot of cards support Menagerie and Menagerie itself is fantastic support for even bigger engines.

It's worst in slogs, but even then I think there's a point where you'd want Menagerie over Silver just on the off chance that you can activate them a couple of times with a lucky draw.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #146 on: January 22, 2013, 08:15:57 pm »
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Dark Ages Shelters I think will really shake this section up in particular when we have more experience with it. Ambassador will drop a little - it's massively weaker in Shelter games which will make up about, uh... about 16.5% when playing pure random (given Ambassador is in the game). Meanwhile Masq probably gets a little better if anything - Necropolis makes terminals generally a touch better, especially cheap ones, and Overgrown Estate is nice to trash. Similarly Menargerie with Shelters, suddenly all you need is some copper trashing, and they become a little more reliable. Not huge, but eh.

I still think Market Square is likely to move down this list as people get more experience with it. It just seems, so often when it's on the board I can easily activate it for a wad of Golds. It's just so much more reliable than Tunnel. And cantrip +buy is a lot better early than 2 VPs - in games with 'dead' tunnels I rarely see more than 1-2 get bought during greening, just because you usually go mostly for Duchies and better.

Scheme I'm really not so sure on. I think I underrated it horrifically, but 9th? I dunno, it does seem a bit weaker than the other cards here. And I really like Scheme.
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But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #147 on: January 22, 2013, 08:22:46 pm »
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Dark Ages Shelters I think will really shake this section up in particular when we have more experience with it. Ambassador will drop a little - it's massively weaker in Shelter games which will make up about, uh... about 16.5% when playing pure random (given Ambassador is in the game). Meanwhile Masq probably gets a little better if anything - Necropolis makes terminals generally a touch better, especially cheap ones, and Overgrown Estate is nice to trash. Similarly Menargerie with Shelters, suddenly all you need is some copper trashing, and they become a little more reliable. Not huge, but eh.

I still think Market Square is likely to move down this list as people get more experience with it. It just seems, so often when it's on the board I can easily activate it for a wad of Golds. It's just so much more reliable than Tunnel. And cantrip +buy is a lot better early than 2 VPs - in games with 'dead' tunnels I rarely see more than 1-2 get bought during greening, just because you usually go mostly for Duchies and better.

Scheme I'm really not so sure on. I think I underrated it horrifically, but 9th? I dunno, it does seem a bit weaker than the other cards here. And I really like Scheme.

Not only Shelters, but Ruins too.  Ambassador has a much more difficult time countering Ruins (relative to Curses), whereas Menagerie thrives in a Ruins slog (relative to a Curse slog).
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #148 on: January 22, 2013, 08:25:51 pm »
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I'm not sure if Dark Ages will be enough for Menagerie to oust Fishing Village from #3, but it might let Masq move past Amb.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 3/3)
« Reply #149 on: January 22, 2013, 08:27:32 pm »
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Wow yeah Dark Ages is doing wonderful things for Menagerie, with Shelters, Ruins, Knights, Spoils, even Hermit/Madman and Urchin/Mecenary.
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