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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards  (Read 58928 times)

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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2013, 09:22:24 pm »
0

In my experience you buy only buy 1 Forager. You won't buy 2 Loans too, right?
It gives +buy which is very strong and is very similar to Spice Merchant which is either non-terminal or gives money. Forager has both, but hasn't the possibility to increase hand size.
Loan is strong, but the possibilty to skip over you power cards makes is to risky. You can compare it with Lookout too. Lookout doesn't give money and buy but leaves you with one card more in hand.

If you want Lookout, Forager or Loan is of course board-dependant, but I would rank Forager highest of these 3 cards.

I don't know, depends on the board whether I want 0, 1 or 2. Loan has the problem that with 2 loans, the loan will sometime hit the other loan. Forager doesn't have this problem. I might open with two on a peddler board, for instance. Or if all three types(or more) of treasure had been trashed, I might buy a couple more late game with a spare $3.



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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2013, 09:23:10 pm »
0

Oh, and it wasn't mentioned explicitly, but Loan can't trash Estates. Forager can.

DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2013, 09:28:09 pm »
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Also, forager is AWESOME with draw to $X cards. Village + forager + watchtower gets to draw you 4 cards after you get the benefit of trashing. Even better if the village was squire or hamlet or fishing village.

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chwhite

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2013, 09:39:32 pm »
0

5.) There is another village, but no good trashing, so the early game boost from Shanty Town will get your deck going quicker.

This is, I think, really where Shanty Town does its best work.  On a board with ST, other village, and engine potential, you almost always want that Shanty first.  (And, later on, you'll still usually be able to use it as a $3 Lab).

Shanty Town is also of course also decent as a primary village in "draw to X" scenarios and as a soft counter in the face of hand reduction.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2013, 10:19:00 pm »
+1

Forager is just a notch below Remake and Steward as far as trashers goes. Actually, I am not sure about Steward because Forager is non-terminal. Having played with a lot of DA, I know with certainty that Forager owns Develop, Trade Route, Loan, and Lookout.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2013, 04:54:59 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2013, 09:10:05 am »
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Considering Hamlet was ranked #2 in the 2's mainly for it's +Buy, I'd say it's not unreasonable for MS to be an average ranked three, considering it has a very strong reaction and is much better as far as +Buy goes...
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ipofanes

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2013, 09:16:01 am »
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In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.

Maybe we can synthesize and say that Market Square is decent with Forager in hand. Or with other non-terminal trashers that allow me to use both the reaction and action part of the card.
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Schneau

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2013, 09:17:18 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.

Maybe we can synthesize and say that Market Square is decent with Forager in hand. Or with other non-terminal trashers that allow me to use both the reaction and action part of the card.

No can do - you have to discard Market Square to use its reaction.
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2013, 09:39:27 am »
+1

Considering Hamlet was ranked #2 in the 2's mainly for it's +Buy, I'd say it's not unreasonable for MS to be an average ranked three, considering it has a very strong reaction and is much better as far as +Buy goes...
Hamlet was not ranked at #2 mainly for its +buy  :o
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Jimmmmm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2013, 09:45:05 am »
0

In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.

In my experience, Market Square can be pretty damn good. Granted, I've only played 2 or 3 games with it, but opening Chapel/Market Square was lots of fun.

I'm not entirely sold on Forager. Well, I agree that it's better than Loan, Lookout (both of which I think are underrated) and Trade Route, but I'd question whether it's better than Steward.
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clb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2013, 11:41:33 am »
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Also, forager is AWESOME with draw to $X cards. Village + forager + watchtower gets to draw you 4 cards after you get the benefit of trashing. Even better if the village was squire or hamlet or fishing village.
One other place that Forager shines is in double Tac, Minion, Conspirator, etc decks where you can really benefit from the non-terminal trashing AND the non-terminal $.
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DrFlux

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2013, 11:50:22 am »
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I love forager. Still, I can't imagine too many situations where I would want forager over steward, especially as an opener. Most involve some draw to X engine. Trashing two is just really strong, especially with the added flexibility steward brings.

Also, lookout is way better than people give it credit for, way better than loan in my opinion. Sure, it kicks you in the ass occasionally. However: it is non-terminal, it trashes a card that isn't even in your hand, and it gives you some degree of filtering, as your top card is the best of three cards. The non-terminal nature of it combos great with draw engines, or many other cards such as minion. Finally, if you pay attention to your cards, you can just NOT play lookout when it is really likely to screw you. Loan stinks on a lot of boards, as its really tough to get effective trashing out of it except on boards where you don't have to buy treasure.
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shark_bait

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2013, 12:49:28 pm »
+1

At the start of the game Lookout provides trashing, cycling and next hand improvement.  These are all fantastic things that Lookout provides, especially early game.  What Lookout synergizes with to a very high degree are other TfB cards.  You use lookout during early/midgame and then Look(out) for a chance trash it for some other type of benefit.  In this way, it no longer is a liability to your deck in the mid/late game.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2013, 01:08:49 pm »
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Trashing two is just really strong, especially with the added flexibility steward brings.

I would say that trashing two is usually really strong only because you have that extra flexibility. Donald once tried a Chapel that could only trash up to 3 cards, and said it was much, much weaker than Chapel as-is.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2013, 01:52:03 pm »
+2

^"Much weaker than Chapel" doesn't necessarily mean bad...
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #91 on: January 11, 2013, 01:57:28 pm »
0

^"Much weaker than Chapel" doesn't necessarily mean bad...

Touché. And clearly there are many boards where a trashing-only Steward would be worth $3, but those are probably significantly rarer than boards where Steward as-is is worth a buy.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2013, 02:26:20 am »
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In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel),

Of course MS is weaker than Tunnel, as trashers tend to have less search space than discarders, but consider that the Gold gain from MS is actually much stronger (in what I would say is a majority of cases) than the Gold gain from Tunnel, since with MS you're replacing a card with Gold, whereas with Tunnel, you're basically just gaining a Gold.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2013, 07:05:15 am »
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In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel),

Of course MS is weaker than Tunnel, as trashers tend to have less search space than discarders, but consider that the Gold gain from MS is actually much stronger (in what I would say is a majority of cases) than the Gold gain from Tunnel, since with MS you're replacing a card with Gold, whereas with Tunnel, you're basically just gaining a Gold.

Pretty sure there are a lotmore trashers that can easily trigger MS than there are cards that can easily trigger tunnel though.

Edit: Just did a quick count. Probably missed a few, but excluding attacks which can do it, MS has about 42 cards that trigger it easily, Tunnel has about 20 that can trigger it easily. By easily I mean it either looks at your hand, or a reasonable number of cards on deck (>=3 usually).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 07:43:03 am by Tables »
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2013, 08:03:42 am »
+2

Market Square can be fun with early Mine, especially with Platinum on the board.  I've also enjoyed Market Square with Rebuild.  Market Square is also a great opening with Masq, since even if you draw it dead, you can still use its reaction.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2013, 08:11:50 am »
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I feel like a key difference between Market Square and Tunnel is that MS triggers on something that you normally want to happen anyway. Sure, there are cards which make you want to discard stuff, but you almost always want to trash stuff. That and you generally want as many MSs as you can get, not quite the same with Tunnels.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2013, 12:16:27 pm »
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I feel like a key difference between Market Square and Tunnel is that MS triggers on something that you normally want to happen anyway. Sure, there are cards which make you want to discard stuff, but you almost always want to trash stuff. That and you generally want as many MSs as you can get, not quite the same with Tunnels.
Indeed; discarding useless cards won't harm you, but trashing useless cards will benefit you. And MS cares about other useless cards being trashed while Tunnel itself is the useless card which has to be discarded.

Though, Tunnel has its strengths as well and it really depends on the kingdom which one is the better one. But usually, I'd be going for the Market Squares.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 2/3)
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2013, 04:18:03 pm »
+1

Here's the video link:


The Best $3 Cards - Part 2/3
#21 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 37.0% ▼3.2pp / Median: 36.0% ▼4.0pp / Standard Deviation: 22.7% ▼4.0pp
Highest Value(s): 100.0% (1x), 83.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (3x)

Here's your first promo which is on the same rank as last year. But it has a very high spread of ranks. It was voted 14 times above average, but on the other side 3 times last. This makes it the card with the highest deviation in this list.

It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? On weak boards it might worth it or you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck.
#20 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 40.4% ▼4.6pp / Median: 36.7% ▼11.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6% ▼2.6pp
Highest Value(s): 80.0% (1x), 76.0% (1x), 73.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.5% (1x), 0% (2x)

And here's the next card with a high deviation. This is the last card with a last rank and it has even 2 of them. But it has also 16 above average votes. And it lost a lot of points with a big drop in Medium which led in a drop of one rank in comparism to last year.

The positive part is: It's a non-terminal trasher which is of course very powerful. It can trash a card which is even not in your hand. It also counters top-deck-attacks, especially Sea Hag (Sea Hag / Lookout is currently the #44 ▲12 best opening), very well. And with the support of "spying" cards you are guaranteed trashing a bad card. All this is similar to Loan. But Loan can only trash the first card. With Lookout you can even choose between three cards. But: In the late game, it's a dead card in your hand, because it becomes dangerous. Who doesn't fear drawing 3 Provinces or even Colonies and having to trash one? More and more players seem to rank it that low because of that fear. The fear isn't justified mostly, but you have to keep that in mind. Especially if you have only 2 or even 1 card in your drawing deck.
#19 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 42.3% ▲0.3pp / Median: 45.0% ▲1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3% ▲2.0pp
Highest Value(s): 74.2% (2x), 72.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.0% (1x), 10.0% (1x), 9.7% (1x)

Oasis is one rank higher than last year. It has also significantly more agreement. It was voted 22 times above average.

At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to many strategies, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible and is especially good on cursing boards or on boards with early greening. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is on the other side rarely a good buy. It synergizes well with "draw up to" cards, so it's no surprise that JaoT/Oasis on #111 ▲41 is a little bit better as opener than simply JaoT/Silver.
#18 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 46.5% / Median: 48.4% / Standard Deviation: 20.3%
Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 83.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (1x), 12.9% (1x), 6.5% (1x)

Here's the first Dark Ages card in this list. And they are all close together. Are the $3 Dark Ages cards hard to rank or are they simply mostly mediocre? Sage was voted 19 times above average and has like most Dark Ages cards in this list a high deviation.

Sage is a great opener, especially with Marauder or Sea Hag where it helps to play the curser basically every turn and also skip over Curses/Ruins later in the game. It helps also to get other key cards like Potion or trashers in your hand that you want to have early. Don't fear to add Silver to your deck because it still helps you to cycle faster. Otherwise it often plays as a weak Scheme because you can't choose the card you want to have in your hand and it even may put a Province in your hand later in the game.
#17 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.0% / Median: 51.6% / Standard Deviation: 20.4%
Highest Value(s): 90.0% (1x), 83.9% (1x), 77.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.1% (2x), 12.9% (1x), 9.7% (1x)

Storeroom is the next Dark Ages card, the first one with an average above 50%.

Storeroom is generally a weak card, but can shine in a handful of situations. It is more like an upgraded Secret Chamber, than an upgraded Cellar. Its discarding makes it one of the best Tunnel enablers, and it comboes well with Tactician, Scrying Pool and in draw-up-to-X engines or Menagerie. But it works especially well with important treasure cards. Almost every Potion cost card synergizes well with it and Storeroom+Philosopher's Stone might be the best one as it is similar to Herbalist+Philosopher's Stone. But the buy and cycling is also great with Fool's Gold, Quarry and decent with Ill-Gotten-Gains. It also guarantees to get to $4 for sure in games without discarding attacks which is great with Gardens. But in most other games this card isn't worth picking up.
#16 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.0% / Median: 58.1% / Standard Deviation: 21.5%
Highest Value(s): 90.3% (1x), 87.1% (1x), 83.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (2x), 12.9% (1x)

Urchin has basically the same average as Storeroom, only 0.02pp are between those two cards. Urchin has a way higher Median and the second highest deviation in this list. In the unweighted list, it would have been 2 ranks higher, on #14.

Urchin is a weak attack. It hurts rarely, only in really thin decks and is in the beginning at best a cantrip Cutpurse, but often worse because you have mostly an Estate/Shelter in hand. Its best use is to use its ability to convert into a Mercenary if you play 2 Urchins (or another second attack) in 1 turn. Mercenary itself is also very board dependant. It's very good in games without trashers and especially in junking games where you can pick up Urchin as second attack and trash the incoming junk. But you still have to trash to Mercenary to get its big benefit what makes it less useful in the late game.
#15 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 52.2% ▼0.2pp / Median: 48.4% ▼3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6% ▲0.8%
Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 86.7% (1x), 83.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.0% (1x), 29.0% (1x), 19.4% (1x)

Village is one of the cards with the lowest deviation. It lost one rank comparing to last year, ignoring Dark Ages. It has only 4 votes in the lower third.

Vanilla village is very hard to rank. How do you rank a card that does nothing beside giving an additional action? It's a card that is important for all engines, but is useless if "Big Money" is the dominant strategy. It's no exciting card for sure, when there are all other engine components there you're glad to have it. The low ranks may come from Big Money players and the high ranks from engine builders. Am I right?
#14 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 53.7% ▲2.9pp / Median: 51.6% ▲1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5% ▲2.8pp
Highest Value(s): 80.6% (2x), 77.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.1% (2x), 16.0% (1x), 12.0% (1x)

It was one of the most undervalued cards for a long time and it went another rank up this year. It even gained a lot of consensus this year. In the unweighted ranking, it's 2 ranks lower. So maybe newer players still underestimate it.

A 2 card-drawer with a spy-effect seems so innocent. But sometimes you even prefer it to Smithy which itself is a good $4 card. You can use it very well in Big Money games where the additional attack part comes handy. The problem with the attack is - like Spy - you do little damage with messing up the top cards. But discarding 2 cards to draw the next two helps cycling through your deck in the early game. But you draw still only 2 cards what is still not very good if you use it in an engine. And the luck factor is high and you have to make hard decisions. Do you want to make your opponent discard the Silver and Estate? It really depends on the cards he has in hand, but you don't know that. On the other side, it's great if you can discard two Golds. So, the attack part is weak, mostly you buy it because you need the +2 cards with the minimized draw luck, which is good in Big Money.
#13 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 56.8% / Median: 61.3% / Standard Deviation: 19.5%
Highest Value(s): 90.3% (2x), 86.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (1x), 12.9% (1x)

Forager has 7 votes above 80%, but some low votes on the other side prevent it being in the upper third.

Non-terminal trashers are always strong and Forager is the best out of the comparable Lookout and Loan in this list. It has also the important buy you often need for engines. It's also a weaker version of Spice Merchant as it both offers the buy and is non-terminal, but it lacks the draw what is the biggest drawback of this card as it decreases the handsize by one (Lookout and Loan don't do that). The variable bonus part makes it similar to Trade Route, but is non-terminal and gets more coins in the beginning what makes it a way better opening. This is also great with trashing attacks like Knights where Gold and Silver easily gets in the trash.
#12 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 58.8% ▼6.2pp / Median: 60.0% ▼6.0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% ▲1.2pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 92.0% (1x), 87.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 29.2% (1x), 25.8% (2x)

Tunnel loses one rank in comparism to last year, but a lot of points. It was voted 14 times below average and it even got a first place once.

Tunnels 2VP for only $3 is already very good. You have to pay $2 more for getting one point more. And the Reaction part is really strong. Mostly there is at least one card on the board which can trigger it. It combos great with Vault, Embassy, Warehouse, Storeroom and such. Young Witch / Tunnel is currently the 76th ▼43 best opening. So Tunnel is one of the rare scenarios when buying a victory card as an opening buy can be really good (beside Island). It's also a great defense card against Discarding Attacks like Militia, Goons or Margrave or even Minion. On boards with many discarding synergies, you mostly can observe a rush for Tunnels. And then not only the Tunnels can deplete, the Gold pile can too. But still it's very situational. If there's no action which can discard, Tunnel is nice in the late game if you miss $5, but no game changer.

To Part 3
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 06:41:20 pm by Qvist »
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2013, 04:22:56 pm »
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Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $3 cards (Part 1/3)
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2013, 04:31:04 pm »
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Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.

Really? Storeroom might be really good in some situations, but I think it's a really weak card in general.
I think both Urchin and Storeroom are overrated, Sage a little bit overrated and Forager is underrated.
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