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[SpaceAnemone]

Gkrieg was just saying that Faust is either town or scum now, though I think the antecedent of "it" changed through the quotes .

I'm not sure I get your point.

Yeah, I agree that the antecedent changing is not helping my understanding. Gkrieg seems to be saying that faust's claiming-theory behaviour (which I'm understanding as the "it") is something he's clearly doing in this game as town or scum. It seems to be an implicit assumption that faust is town this time, given that he was scum in the first run-through.

[Qvist]

Just checking in again, didn't have that much time to read the last hours.

[Qvist]

Actually, I have exactly the same question on Qvist that you had on Galz: is he a returning oldie?

I have played like 2 games long time ago, so I am pretty much a noob.

So I would be okay voting for RR or WW for reasons already lined out, all the other people didn't really stand out to me.
Although Eevee being so lurky is totally different to the game I played back then, so not sure how I should interpret that.

[Roadrunner7671]

Now you guys want to vote for DatSwan? 

[Eevee]

I'm happy with my WW vote. I'm not really following the gkrieg arguments for either said, it's very confusing.

[gkrieg13]

Ok, rereading D1 now.

[Eevee]

Love gkrieg rereads, love them.

[gkrieg13]

I still think iguana is likely town from the poisoner claim, and more importantly, it means that we know scum doesn't have it.  Plus, the poison kill has a different flavor, so it will be obvious if he uses the power anyway.

WW has suspicions of iguana's claim

Faster, faster, scums, maybe you'll get a derphammer and less analyze material for town!

Actually i am glad that this wagon is happening. Quite informative

This post is slightly scummy from LaLight.  He knows this is what town should feel like, but the feeling seems a little hollow compared to town!LaLight.

He even starts trying to analyze his own wagon.  The reaction to the votes just seems too fast IMO.

I agree with myself that O is probably town this game.

I am somewhat suspicious of Iguana's claim, for the record.

Hmm, it seems the possibilities, in rough order of descending likelihood are:

1. He's Town and telling the truth.
2. He's scum and he or a teammate is a Ninja.
3. He's scum and he or a teammate is a Poisoner.
...
4. He's scum and neither he nor a teammate is a Ninja or Poisoner.
5. He's Town and lying.

Which of 2-4 do you think is likely? What benefit would scum have from claiming?

This seems townie from Jimmmm.  Good analysis.

Well, I was going to agree with the Poisoner claiming, but it seems I'm late to the party.

Slightly scummy from Galz, although I'm not sure why I feel that way from this post.

I still very much disagree with faust about the 2-shot redirector, but I don't think it is too scummy from faust anymore.

The poisoner claim is hard because fakeclaims are pretty difficult for scum in this game.  faust and I were running into that problem last time, that basically the best thing for us to do was sacrifice faust, because scum being claim #1 makes it incredibly difficult to fakeclaim, because other people have so much information about the other slots.

Datswan seems townie from his iguana analysis

qvist is a little fishy to me.  Definitely leaning scum there.

Space is town I think.  The amount of analysis to other content stuff seems consistent with town!them.

I can never read WW.  He is one of the top people I would cop if I were an alignment cop in every game.

vote: Faust

Redirect or should also worry scum if town took it.

What does this mean?

Redirector role should make you worried if you are scum, if town took it.

Wow, err ok. You definitely have better gkrieg parsing skills than me!

The implication is that scum!me tries to out a town Redirector? I mean no. That is just not how I do things.

Classic defense there.  I'm saying that you are doing an awful lot of role fishing, and I also think you are just outright wrong about the 2-shot redirector being better for scum than it is for town.  If used right, you can actually get scum to kill themselves!!!!

This post from me sums up my thoughts on faust at that point.

Casting suspicion on me without real vote, voting for faust without real reason, no scumhunting

See, this is just bad from LaLight.  One of these things is actually true, and the scumhunting thing is wayyyy too early in the game to be pulling that out of the excuses to vote hat.

@225 . Don't want to lose this so posting it.

[gkrieg13]

I agree with a lot of what Teproc says, but it doesn't move him from null yet.

That is just not how I do things.

And herr we come to my favorite argument which also proved to work: if you are aware what things you do and don't do as scum. you can imitate them.

Well, yes. But obviously I also don't do this as town, so there would be no real benefit to me imitating it as scum.

But you are trying to get the redirector to claim (or show that there isn't any redirector), so you are doing it as town or scum...

I need parsing help now! Are you saying you think he's scummy for suggesting a role should be claimed, or saying that you observe he's done similar as town? We all know her was scum on the dry run of this game, so I'm missing where the knowing-he's-town part comes from.

Urgh..  phone posting, so apologies if I've missed any of the awful autocorrupts!

What I'm trying to say here is that faust is saying that he doesn't rolefish as town, which I'm saying can't be true with what he says because he is saying he is town and rolefishing.  And so I'm saying that the fact that he is in fact rolefishing (which is the term I'm using so I don't have to repeat "trying to get the redirector to claim or show that there isn't a redirector") means he is doing it as town or scum (because he has to be one or the other).  Really not a big deal, though.

Also, I'm kind of VLA again for the next 48 hours on a business trip to Germany. Sadly can't so in to investigate faust in person this time round :-( Last time I was about to fly to Germany I had gkrieg with me on the coach to Heathrow (which is where I am now) and LaLight was waiting for us in Berlin!

*waves to all you guys in the interwebs* Miss you all!

Miss you too!!!

I feel like town!WW moves his vote around a bunch, which is what he is doing here, but I think scum!WW knows this...

Look. There is 16 people i have no idea of alignment of. [most of quote snipped]

Once again, this looks like LaLight trying too hard.  I must be really reading LaLight as scum, because now every single one of his posts is scummy to me.

I think IDPTG isn't scummy for jumping off the wagon.  It is a very cautious!townie thing to do.

6 people not voting is a lot. I think these wagons are a good place to start but I want to know what the other 6 people think.

Which of these wagons is good?

The gkrieg one.

Really?  Your case is that I used exclamation points in multiples instead of in singles, where there is no proof that I don’t do that as town. I’m surprised that that is even a case honestly.

I am waiting for a better case to present itself. Plus if I stay on you forever and I get lucky and you are scum that is major town points

This exchange does not make me feel good about e.

I can agree with e on the claiming stuff.  Shows he has thought about it.

I'm kind of skimming that this point, which makes these rereads less useful. 

Right now I have the following:

town: O, iguana, Jimmm, Space, Datswan, RR, IDPTG (although I literally had to go to the playerlist to figure out who the 17th person was...)

scum: LaLight

scum-leaning: galz, qvist, Eevee, 

town-leaning: faust

null: Teproc, WW, e, Archetype? (don't remember anything from him either)

I won't lie (because i'm town), I'm kind of lurking purposefully, meaning I'm reading along but it's just too many people for me to find anything reasonable to say. My plan is to shoot semi-random votes and hope I get lucky and hit scum.

I feel our day 1 chances might honestly be worse with careful analysis and crafted arguments. Scum can, and will just latch onto the best sounding ones and town will be lynched.

For day 1, with a town this size, maybe chaos is our best chance?

Oh ya, this is why Eevee is scummy.

vote: LaLight

I stopped at #400 for the record.

[Eevee]

Quickly reread LaLight, and I can see what gkrieg is saying. I like my vote on WW still, but I could vote for LL as well if the wagon's shake the right way. Not really interested in gkrieg (the reread looks towny! I like how there are some weaker points/more controversial opinions there as well, seems like town attempting to make analysis without too much care for how it makes themselves look) or RR (as referenced about, simply didn't seem scummy to me on reread).

I'm wondering about Galzria, this has certainly been a slow performance from him this far (though I admit that my expectations are gargantuan), but there's no lamenting about the size of the game or the business of life which would maybe be more expected from scum. I'm going back and forth, but leaning town.

[Galzria]

I feel like I've been slightly less present than normal but not hugely so. Mostly, while I think D1 is one of the most valuable days in a game - it just rarely ever is on D1 itself. I do backward analysis of the game as it goes fairly well... and D1 for me is more about creating interactions and events that can be looked back on later than it is trying to be hugely productive today.

[Teproc]

Sorry i've been absent, it's been a crazy couple of days for me. What's happening ?

[Jimmmmm]

I won't lie (because i'm town), I'm kind of lurking purposefully, meaning I'm reading along but it's just too many people for me to find anything reasonable to say. My plan is to shoot semi-random votes and hope I get lucky and hit scum.

I feel our day 1 chances might honestly be worse with careful analysis and crafted arguments. Scum can, and will just latch onto the best sounding ones and town will be lynched.

For day 1, with a town this size, maybe chaos is our best chance?

Oh ya, this is why Eevee is scummy.

Nah, this is why he's Towny.

[Teproc]

Rereading now.

I don't like that everyone keeps bringin up the exclamaionts points thing about gkrieg. I think e's the only one who took that even halfway seriously (maybe WW too). gkrieg's "LaLight is scummy" comment without voting (he was not voting for anyone else either) is still basically the scummiest thing that's happened this game.

Also, gkrieg is scummy because he's not townie. Plenty of people are townie in this game, so that's enough. But it's even more true of WW.

faust is not going for any of the main wagons AND fighting with O ? Another player looking townie and making me want to lynch the people who are not.

WW getting argumentative is scum!WW I think.

Re: Qvist... I don't know. He feels similar to the first iteration of the game, he was town there right ? So there, slightly townie.

I like the gkrieg reread. Now he's done something townie ! I don't finde the LL case super convinving though. I like my vote on WW. Deadline is sometime tomorrow right ? I'll be around.

[Teproc]

gkrieg was on WW too, so his launching on LL feels organic, because it's inconvenient for him. I mean LL is a possible alternative lynch, since he's gotten suspicion and not many townreads, but it's not the easiest path to getting out of lynch range. That would be WW (similar to LL but with a bunch of votes on him already) or DatSwan (any lynch gets easier when faust is pushing it), so town points for that too.

[O]

That being said, I understand an argument like: Gkrieg was a safe place for scum to put their vote early on as it wouldn't be scrutinized, and leaving it there serves as a cover for doing something in the game while not scum hunting.  Therefore scummy wagon, and therefore Gkrieg more likely town.

That argument doesn't seem to be made, though.  And, even so, I didn't find the people voting Gkrieg early on to be that scummy.

I agree for once, that there's little alignment indicative on the Gkrieg wagon.

[Galzria]

I could support an IDPTG wagon. Not my top choice, but not the worst either.

The only things of value that he's said are "I don't want my vote on LaLight anymore." And "I don't like having my RVS vote on a wagon" (in reference to the first).

7 posts total though, so interactions are limited.

[Galzria]

I could support an IDPTG wagon. Not my top choice, but not the worst either.

The only things of value that he's said are "I don't want my vote on LaLight anymore." And "I don't like having my RVS vote on a wagon" (in reference to the first).

7 posts total though, so interactions are limited.

That is to say, he's had no opinions whatsoever and his only vote was removed for poor reasoning and stated RVS in nature.

[Galzria]

Eh, sure, why not?

vote: idptg

Lynch order preference:

Eevee -> WW-> IDPTG -> 2.7 -> Most everybody else.

[SpaceAnemone]

I started this re-read much earlier this afternoon (i.e. in the morning, forum-time-wise), but it got put to one side while I got stuff done. The post counts were correct at whatever points I re-loaded the whole-thread view for a particular read, so they're not all taken at the same point in time.

LaLight (41 posts): Lots of early-game scum-reads and accusations, which isn't quite his usual friendly self. Weird townreading logic at #236. Feels a bit defensive. Then goes totally VLA for four days. Leaning scummier than I'd remembered.
Galzria (31 posts): Surprisingly little early-game content (like before #400). Spends a lot of time defending gkrieg. Null.
gkrieg (31 posts): I really don't like how the case against him has been characterised as being all about the punctuation. I remain suspicious of him, and would like him to engage with my point, rather than letting WW do the work for him. Also, gkrieg seemed to be half-defending RR when the wagon starts up, but then jumped right on.
2.71828..... (48 posts): Seems townie for his enthusiasm for the claiming stuff. He's been really burned by claiming exercises before as scum.
Archetype (8 posts): So little here! Is there a VLA in effect? I'd accuse him of fluff-posting with the highlighting of my unintentional pun, except that he also put something game-relevant in the same post, so I think it feels like he's trying to participate. Very null.
Teproc (22 posts): Townie for pushing claiming in a way that I think benefits town.
Witherweaver (74 posts!): Huge number of posts, though most of them are tiny. I find his lack of quoting makes it hard to sit some of his comments in their right context, so I could misinterpret things easily, but I don't think I'm seeing anything that scummy. I don't get why he's the big alternative to gkrieg.
IDontPlayThisGame (7 posts): Wow, virtually no content, but currently VLA. I remember town!IDP being considerably more proactive at scum-hunting.
Datswan (25 posts): Newbie to me at least. Not really said as much as the post count ought to indicate. Seems a bit hesitant/flakey on votes, but that might be a newbie thing. Nullish.
Qvist (14 posts): Also a new-to-me person, also someone with very little in the early game. Pretty much the same boat as Datswan.
RoadRunner (35 posts): Admits to artificially inflating his post count :-P Has been VLA. Seems to be flaily town for D1. I always think he's not the most pro-town person around, and then he gets lynched and turns out to have been town after all. So town for now to avoid that mess for the time being.
faust (53 posts): He's active in scum-hunting and making people stay accountable, which is good. I dislike the aggressive bit a lot, but I'm not sure it's indicative of alignment. The fact he's not trying to kill off me or gkrieg (or other logic-y people?) is encouraging at least.
SpaceAnemone -- spaaaaaace :-) Only 16 posts, though, which is fewer than I'd thought, even given VLA-ness.
Iguanaiguana (28 posts): I still find the lack of early accountability worrying for the poisoner thing. That can be solved when we see how things look in D3, though, so he's a pretty poor vote choice for today.
Jimmmmm (27 posts): Active early, then less active once his level of activity was pointed out. Doesn't seem very committed.
O (51 posts): Way more active than I'd realised. O's lack of avatar really doesn't work for my visual memory! I feel like he's behaving in the "play to have fun" style he got tunneled by Awaclus for in M100. I do still think that sort of jokiness benefits scum more than town, but I don't think there's other evidence to think he's scum yet.

Okay, as I say, I started this some hours ago and didn't get around to finishing it. Now gkrieg has posted a reasonably satisfactory explanation of the wording thing I was unhappy with, and I'm swinging round to putting him into the maybe-townie box. In contrast, my re-read didn't leave me with warm fuzzies over LL, so I'm going to follow gkrieg and vote: LL instead.

[Witherweaver]

Gkrieg was just saying that Faust is either town or scum now, though I think the antecedent of "it" changed through the quotes .

I'm not sure I get your point.

Yeah, I agree that the antecedent changing is not helping my understanding. Gkrieg seems to be saying that faust's claiming-theory behaviour (which I'm understanding as the "it") is something he's clearly doing in this game as town or scum. It seems to be an implicit assumption that faust is town this time, given that he was scum in the first run-through.

I don't think I agree with the implicit assumption.  It's not like Gkrieg is saying he knows Faust does it as both town and scum, since before Faust was scum. He's saying Fasut is doing it now, and now his alignment is {town or scum}.

[Witherweaver]

WW getting argumentative is scum!WW I think.

Haha, you really cannot read me at all.

[Witherweaver]

I'm happy with my WW vote. I'm not really following the gkrieg arguments for either said, it's very confusing.

My argument is simple, the other people on my wagon I think are townier, and I doubt my wagon is all town.

[Witherweaver]

I started this re-read much earlier this afternoon (i.e. in the morning, forum-time-wise), but it got put to one side while I got stuff done. The post counts were correct at whatever points I re-loaded the whole-thread view for a particular read, so they're not all taken at the same point in time.

LaLight (41 posts): Lots of early-game scum-reads and accusations, which isn't quite his usual friendly self. Weird townreading logic at #236. Feels a bit defensive. Then goes totally VLA for four days. Leaning scummier than I'd remembered.
Galzria (31 posts): Surprisingly little early-game content (like before #400). Spends a lot of time defending gkrieg. Null.
gkrieg (31 posts): I really don't like how the case against him has been characterised as being all about the punctuation. I remain suspicious of him, and would like him to engage with my point, rather than letting WW do the work for him. Also, gkrieg seemed to be half-defending RR when the wagon starts up, but then jumped right on.
2.71828..... (48 posts): Seems townie for his enthusiasm for the claiming stuff. He's been really burned by claiming exercises before as scum.
Archetype (8 posts): So little here! Is there a VLA in effect? I'd accuse him of fluff-posting with the highlighting of my unintentional pun, except that he also put something game-relevant in the same post, so I think it feels like he's trying to participate. Very null.
Teproc (22 posts): Townie for pushing claiming in a way that I think benefits town.
Witherweaver (74 posts!): Huge number of posts, though most of them are tiny. I find his lack of quoting makes it hard to sit some of his comments in their right context, so I could misinterpret things easily, but I don't think I'm seeing anything that scummy. I don't get why he's the big alternative to gkrieg.
IDontPlayThisGame (7 posts): Wow, virtually no content, but currently VLA. I remember town!IDP being considerably more proactive at scum-hunting.
Datswan (25 posts): Newbie to me at least. Not really said as much as the post count ought to indicate. Seems a bit hesitant/flakey on votes, but that might be a newbie thing. Nullish.
Qvist (14 posts): Also a new-to-me person, also someone with very little in the early game. Pretty much the same boat as Datswan.
RoadRunner (35 posts): Admits to artificially inflating his post count :-P Has been VLA. Seems to be flaily town for D1. I always think he's not the most pro-town person around, and then he gets lynched and turns out to have been town after all. So town for now to avoid that mess for the time being.
faust (53 posts): He's active in scum-hunting and making people stay accountable, which is good. I dislike the aggressive bit a lot, but I'm not sure it's indicative of alignment. The fact he's not trying to kill off me or gkrieg (or other logic-y people?) is encouraging at least.
SpaceAnemone -- spaaaaaace :-) Only 16 posts, though, which is fewer than I'd thought, even given VLA-ness.
Iguanaiguana (28 posts): I still find the lack of early accountability worrying for the poisoner thing. That can be solved when we see how things look in D3, though, so he's a pretty poor vote choice for today.
Jimmmmm (27 posts): Active early, then less active once his level of activity was pointed out. Doesn't seem very committed.
O (51 posts): Way more active than I'd realised. O's lack of avatar really doesn't work for my visual memory! I feel like he's behaving in the "play to have fun" style he got tunneled by Awaclus for in M100. I do still think that sort of jokiness benefits scum more than town, but I don't think there's other evidence to think he's scum yet.

Okay, as I say, I started this some hours ago and didn't get around to finishing it. Now gkrieg has posted a reasonably satisfactory explanation of the wording thing I was unhappy with, and I'm swinging round to putting him into the maybe-townie box. In contrast, my re-read didn't leave me with warm fuzzies over LL, so I'm going to follow gkrieg and vote: LL instead.

Post leader.  *Flex*

[SpaceAnemone]

Post leader.  *Flex*

Yeah, you illustrate really nicely why post counts are no good as a quantitative measure :-P

I still think it's useful in order to get a feel for order-of-magnitude levels of posting history, though.