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[mail-mi]

mail-mi...off the top of your head, what do you think of yuma?

I get the concern that he is still alive--which is a valid concern--but speaking from experience, there are often better options.

Also this: Him not getting killed also can signify neither mafia nor SK thinking he is scum.

So, I could go for Yuma, but he is not my preferred lynch.

[Robz888]

I still think yuma is scummy, but let's give the guy like a break here on the amount of working we are asking him to do, he's got way bigger personal things going on and he's still like contributing more than anyone else, so... I think he has definitely done everything he should have, and has answered questons and stuff.

[Voltaire]

I still think yuma is scummy, but let's give the guy like a break here on the amount of working we are asking him to do, he's got way bigger personal things going on and he's still like contributing more than anyone else, so... I think he has definitely done everything he should have, and has answered questons and stuff.

I actually agree with this. But I did not appreciate the approach that post took to making its point.

[yuma]

Can you explain your "to add to that"? I'm not following.

You are implying that since lio and I were the only ones not voting for Voltgloss one of us must be mafia. Right? Hence the wagon analysis. If you follow that belief then it must have been extremely bad play for me to want to be on lio's wagon. Because if I am mafia then I know he isn't (hence he would be one player that I wouldn't want to lynch because of the PoE). But I was on the lio wagon. Not only was I on it, I was the player who made it become THE wagon for day2 turning away from nkirbit to liopoil at a time when it still could have been either person to go through.

Robz is a "strong" read because I don't have any strong reads in this game and he's the least uncertain. We have been reaching very similar conclusions. So I think that either he is town or he is scum who is happy to have me agreeing with him. I am working as though it is the former.

Why are you happy to work with it as the former. For a "strong" town read this seems more like a 50/50 chance. But you are just assuming it is the 50% where he is town. I don't think this is a valid rationale unless there is something you are leaving out.

And you come off scummy in your conversation here:

However... I have to bring up my big concerns about yuma. Basically, it boils down to this: Yuma is still alive. And yuma is, without a doubt, the best scumhunter left in this game (he is arguably the best town player overall in my view). Most of the time, he is taken out at some point, because scum fear his awesome scumhunting abilities. And often when he DOES survive day after day, it's because he's scum. See Mean Girls and Deep Space Nine for examples of this (XIX and... XXV? My memory IS starting to fade on the numbers, unfortunately).

There are of course counter examples to this, and you know, maybe scum had higher priorities. (Certainly shooting UoS Day 1 was a big one). But, like, a bunch of scum decided to kill harmless lurkers Eevee and Jorbles, over yuma? Is that not a sign that yuma is himself scum?

That isn't a read. That is bad PoE. You have done nothing to show me why I am scum. Why does this apply, but not apply to you? Or to shraeye? Or to voltaire. I get why it probably doesn't apply to mail-mi, or nkirbit. But you are picking a situation, singling me out and calling it a scum read... That is just bad.

That is a read. You are trying to belittle is reads so they don't seem useful.

It isn't a read. He doesn't say anything about me being or acting or playing scummy. It is a PoE, not a read. And bad PoE at that. I have asked him to explain his read. He has only given me this. It isn't enough for me.

No... What I am doing is expressing my frustration in that you think I am scum, but have yet to give a good reason as to why you think this. Thus I can only figure... now that you have said you haven't reread... that you have developed an idea based off? Nothing? Something? What? I have asked once... twice already and have not been given an answer. Now you say you will give me an answer after you have reread? Seems like you already know what you are going to find. Don't you think?

And this too.

Do you disagree with the statement in bold? Because it does seem like he knows what he is going to find. The question is whether he is doing this as town or as mafia. I am not sure which.

[yuma]

So bug off.

This sure makes the game fun.

So does being asked ridiculous demands.

[yuma]

I still think yuma is scummy, but let's give the guy like a break here on the amount of working we are asking him to do, he's got way bigger personal things going on and he's still like contributing more than anyone else, so... I think he has definitely done everything he should have, and has answered questons and stuff.

I actually agree with this. But I did not appreciate the approach that post took to making its point.

I am not trying to offend or be rude. I never try to do that. But I do take issue with being asked (and having that asking imply scuminess) of things I am not physically capable of doing.

I think what I meant to say had I not allowed by annoyedness to leak through was "I am a bit busy with stuff and with answering the other questions you guys are throwing at me, I'll get to it when I can."

[Voltaire]

So bug off.

This sure makes the game fun.

So does being asked ridiculous demands.

I am sorry if it came across as a demand. It certainly was not.

[Voltaire]

I think what I meant to say had I not allowed by annoyedness to leak through was "I am a bit busy with stuff and with answering the other questions you guys are throwing at me, I'll get to it when I can."

Which is cool. Thanks.

[shraeye]

I'm thinking things through and I'm leaning towards yuma town.  I'm toying with the idea that lurkers (eevee/jorbles) were shot at because scum is loving hte status quo.

When yuma was absent this weekend, the entire game stagnated it seemed.  I don't think we're gonna hit scum by going after the guy who was keeping the thread moving along.


My suspicions are tilting towards nkirbit

Wow, I was very wrong about Liopoil.

I was thinking during the night, and was worried that scum were simply lurking their way through day2 while all the town players yelled at each other.  But Eevee and Jorbles are dead, so that theory is completely shot.

Robz, I guess it is surprising that Yuma is alive, but I'm not necessarily sure that indicates that he's not town.. if he were scum, he would be a good target for the other team too, right?

Here's a thought:  The SK, at this point during the night, is probably focused on shooting mafia as opposed to shooting town.  Is there anyone who had a scum-read on Eevee or Jorbles?  Perhaps we can find an SK there.  I'm worried that there wasn't, though, because all the active players were pretty much ignoring the inactive ones.

I don't like this post, as it makes an implicit assumption that Eevee/Jorbles aren't scum.

This sounds like nkirbit was thinking a lot over the night phase trying to see where the opposing scum were, and then got disappointed when they weren't scum.  "That theory" would only be completely shot if nkirbit knew that Eevee/Jorbles were both town.  He also looks preoccupied with finding the SK, as his last's paragraphs analysis could have applied to either team, and he only referenced one.

His next post talks about moving away from yesterday's suspects because scum was happy to keep status quo.  Well, that certainly would also mean that we shift suspicion away from him.  What is scummy about this is that he in the same breath says that yuma/Voltaire also were part of yesterday's suspicion-fest.  I don't remember anybody seriously discussing lynching yuma or Voltaire during day2.  So it looks like nkirbit is suggesting that we look "away" from a certain subset of people, and that subset is basically those who had scumreads on him.  This feels like a quick/dirty way to simultaneously redirect from yourself while trying to gain allies to agree with your point of view at the same time.

vote:nkirbit

[Voltaire]

Robz is a "strong" read because I don't have any strong reads in this game and he's the least uncertain. We have been reaching very similar conclusions. So I think that either he is town or he is scum who is happy to have me agreeing with him. I am working as though it is the former.

Why are you happy to work with it as the former. For a "strong" town read this seems more like a 50/50 chance. But you are just assuming it is the 50% where he is town. I don't think this is a valid rationale unless there is something you are leaving out.

Well, if three scum are alive then everyone has a 60% chance of being scum. And I am not assuming anything.

[Voltaire]

It isn't a read. He doesn't say anything about me being or acting or playing scummy. It is a PoE, not a read. And bad PoE at that. I have asked him to explain his read. He has only given me this. It isn't enough for me.

No... What I am doing is expressing my frustration in that you think I am scum, but have yet to give a good reason as to why you think this. Thus I can only figure... now that you have said you haven't reread... that you have developed an idea based off? Nothing? Something? What? I have asked once... twice already and have not been given an answer. Now you say you will give me an answer after you have reread? Seems like you already know what you are going to find. Don't you think?

And this too.

Do you disagree with the statement in bold? Because it does seem like he knows what he is going to find. The question is whether he is doing this as town or as mafia. I am not sure which.

I think that it is poisoning the well ie making it seem as though the explanation he is likely to give has been pre-judged as not valid.

[yuma]

It isn't a read. He doesn't say anything about me being or acting or playing scummy. It is a PoE, not a read. And bad PoE at that. I have asked him to explain his read. He has only given me this. It isn't enough for me.

No... What I am doing is expressing my frustration in that you think I am scum, but have yet to give a good reason as to why you think this. Thus I can only figure... now that you have said you haven't reread... that you have developed an idea based off? Nothing? Something? What? I have asked once... twice already and have not been given an answer. Now you say you will give me an answer after you have reread? Seems like you already know what you are going to find. Don't you think?

And this too.

Do you disagree with the statement in bold? Because it does seem like he knows what he is going to find. The question is whether he is doing this as town or as mafia. I am not sure which.

I think that it is poisoning the well ie making it seem as though the explanation he is likely to give has been pre-judged as not valid.

But that isn't the point. The point is that he has already given his judgement. I want his explanation before his judgement. But because he has been unwilling/unable to do so I do question whether or not his delayed judgement has validity... and in my opinion rightly so. Why? Because it is delayed and backwards. I see no problem with this. If Robz doesn't want me to question validity he should do due diligence and then give a read. Not the other way around. At least not as emphatically as he did earlier by basically eliminating everyone but me and mail-mi w/o cause.

[yuma]

That is it for now. I need to get lunch ready for wife.

Continuing on this line of thought:

So while I disagree with shraeye's case (and I admit it is easy to do in hindsight... and I need to take into considation it was was a day1 case...) I don't know if I find him scummy for it. Really the only thing that makes me a bit cautious was his mention that he "liked" ash's case on voltgloss and potentially used that as a springboard knowing that he had some support already from ash... Somewhat on the scummier side, but town can do this as well. See something from someone else and build upon it...

Well, in that regard, I still like ash's suspicions on Voltgloss more than your "he just is a gut-feel"-vote on ash, where you also keep sheeping any and all other points that people bring up against ash.

Day2 shraeye put in a huge amount of work. Rereads all around... I still don't think that much of anything in analyzing the voltgloss wagon is useful. We both thought shraeye found something with liopoil... that ended up being wrong, again. But he did do a lot of work to dig up the stuff, comment on it and see if it fit into the cases he was building.

Shraeye reread Robz, liopoil and voltaire... Town on the bookends and scummy in the middle. Another thing to point out is that shraeye never really considered lynching anywhere but liopoil day2. Is this a townie trait or a scummy one? Instinct says it is a townie trait. Being "sure" and not willing to go with the flow like scum often is.

Day3

his main focus has been on nkirbit. First for the "beating drum" about "knowing shraeye's style"
Pretty much good questioning and trying to figure things out.

Really... I think at this point I have a townread on shraeye. He has flown under the radar, yes, but I think that is because he hasn't done much of anything to warrant real suspicion...

[shraeye]

@yuma on shraeye: This does look like shraeye could be setting up a fake case for Voltgloss. I need to reread him.

@D2 wagon analysis: I'm probably jumping into a whole boatload of WIFOM, but because he is the only player alive that wasn't on lio, and that scum killed 2 off wagon, I have a townier read on volt.

I reread NK. After that, I think I'm most comfortable with a Vote: Robz

what are your thoughts on Nkirbit?  What made you want to voet robz based on the reread of nkirbit?

I think he is townier than others were making him out to be yesterday, and of the two people I've reread, Robz was the scummier one.

what was scummy about Robz in particular?  What was towny from nkirbit?  I'm, like, askin' for examples and stuff.

[Robz888]

My re-read is going painfully slowly and I'm not learning anything new. No reveals really sucks.

[mail-mi]

@yuma on shraeye: This does look like shraeye could be setting up a fake case for Voltgloss. I need to reread him.

@D2 wagon analysis: I'm probably jumping into a whole boatload of WIFOM, but because he is the only player alive that wasn't on lio, and that scum killed 2 off wagon, I have a townier read on volt.

I reread NK. After that, I think I'm most comfortable with a Vote: Robz

what are your thoughts on Nkirbit?  What made you want to voet robz based on the reread of nkirbit?

I think he is townier than others were making him out to be yesterday, and of the two people I've reread, Robz was the scummier one.

what was scummy about Robz in particular?  What was towny from nkirbit?  I'm, like, askin' for examples and stuff.

Nkirbit I think defended himself well for the accusations on him, and robz is the scummier out of the two I reread. That may change as I reread others.

[shraeye]

arg...what were the accusations, and what were his defenses with regard to nkirbit?

And STILL I haven't seen an example of something scummy from Robz.

Please give me something I can analyze and work with.  A quote; your interpretation of it.  More than just "oh yeah, he felt scummier"

[mail-mi]

arg...what were the accusations, and what were his defenses with regard to nkirbit?

And STILL I haven't seen an example of something scummy from Robz.

Please give me something I can analyze and work with.  A quote; your interpretation of it.  More than just "oh yeah, he felt scummier"

I'll pull up some quotes later when not on mobile, but his "mirroring" and "acti-lurking" he defended himself well.

Robz... This is gonna sound bad, but he's more of a gut feel.

[Voltaire]

nkirbit hasn't posted since Thursday? He said he was very, very busy. Too busy to do rereads. But too busy to post?

Request Prod on both shraeye and nkirbit

nkirbit, are you out there?

[Voltaire]

My suspicions are tilting towards nkirbit

Wow, I was very wrong about Liopoil.

I was thinking during the night, and was worried that scum were simply lurking their way through day2 while all the town players yelled at each other.  But Eevee and Jorbles are dead, so that theory is completely shot.

Robz, I guess it is surprising that Yuma is alive, but I'm not necessarily sure that indicates that he's not town.. if he were scum, he would be a good target for the other team too, right?

Here's a thought:  The SK, at this point during the night, is probably focused on shooting mafia as opposed to shooting town.  Is there anyone who had a scum-read on Eevee or Jorbles?  Perhaps we can find an SK there.  I'm worried that there wasn't, though, because all the active players were pretty much ignoring the inactive ones.

I don't like this post, as it makes an implicit assumption that Eevee/Jorbles aren't scum.

This sounds like nkirbit was thinking a lot over the night phase trying to see where the opposing scum were, and then got disappointed when they weren't scum.  "That theory" would only be completely shot if nkirbit knew that Eevee/Jorbles were both town.  He also looks preoccupied with finding the SK, as his last's paragraphs analysis could have applied to either team, and he only referenced one.

His next post talks about moving away from yesterday's suspects because scum was happy to keep status quo.  Well, that certainly would also mean that we shift suspicion away from him.  What is scummy about this is that he in the same breath says that yuma/Voltaire also were part of yesterday's suspicion-fest.  I don't remember anybody seriously discussing lynching yuma or Voltaire during day2.  So it looks like nkirbit is suggesting that we look "away" from a certain subset of people, and that subset is basically those who had scumreads on him.  This feels like a quick/dirty way to simultaneously redirect from yourself while trying to gain allies to agree with your point of view at the same time.

vote:nkirbit

So this is actually a very good case on nkirbit, again. I don't think that yuma or myself were D2 lynches at any point. scum!Chairs got tripped up by this sort of thing in HP. I want to hear nkirbit answer the Jorbles/Eevee part of it.

[nkirbit]

nkirbit hasn't posted since Thursday? He said he was very, very busy. Too busy to do rereads. But too busy to post?

Request Prod on both shraeye and nkirbit

nkirbit, are you out there?

Yes, I have been prodded.  Here I am!

[nkirbit]

My suspicions are tilting towards nkirbit

Wow, I was very wrong about Liopoil.

I was thinking during the night, and was worried that scum were simply lurking their way through day2 while all the town players yelled at each other.  But Eevee and Jorbles are dead, so that theory is completely shot.

Robz, I guess it is surprising that Yuma is alive, but I'm not necessarily sure that indicates that he's not town.. if he were scum, he would be a good target for the other team too, right?

Here's a thought:  The SK, at this point during the night, is probably focused on shooting mafia as opposed to shooting town.  Is there anyone who had a scum-read on Eevee or Jorbles?  Perhaps we can find an SK there.  I'm worried that there wasn't, though, because all the active players were pretty much ignoring the inactive ones.

I don't like this post, as it makes an implicit assumption that Eevee/Jorbles aren't scum.

This sounds like nkirbit was thinking a lot over the night phase trying to see where the opposing scum were, and then got disappointed when they weren't scum.  "That theory" would only be completely shot if nkirbit knew that Eevee/Jorbles were both town.  He also looks preoccupied with finding the SK, as his last's paragraphs analysis could have applied to either team, and he only referenced one.

His next post talks about moving away from yesterday's suspects because scum was happy to keep status quo.  Well, that certainly would also mean that we shift suspicion away from him.  What is scummy about this is that he in the same breath says that yuma/Voltaire also were part of yesterday's suspicion-fest.  I don't remember anybody seriously discussing lynching yuma or Voltaire during day2.  So it looks like nkirbit is suggesting that we look "away" from a certain subset of people, and that subset is basically those who had scumreads on him.  This feels like a quick/dirty way to simultaneously redirect from yourself while trying to gain allies to agree with your point of view at the same time.

vote:nkirbit

So this is actually a very good case on nkirbit, again. I don't think that yuma or myself were D2 lynches at any point. scum!Chairs got tripped up by this sort of thing in HP. I want to hear nkirbit answer the Jorbles/Eevee part of it.

No, I don't know that Jorbles/Eevee were town.  They could be, could not be, one could be one couldn't be.

I was worried that scum had lurked their way through day2, and had been planning on looking into both Jorbles and Eevee (who were the two major lurkers), and see if I could find anything scummy about them.  Obviously, I don't need to do that anymore, since they're both dead!

[nkirbit]

arg...what were the accusations, and what were his defenses with regard to nkirbit?

And STILL I haven't seen an example of something scummy from Robz.

Please give me something I can analyze and work with.  A quote; your interpretation of it.  More than just "oh yeah, he felt scummier"

The one thing that I think is scummy about Robz:

When he made his case on me day2, one of the premises in that case was that I was, "Making an attempt to appear active without actually contributing much."  That just wasn't true, as I had not posted in about three days entirely.  He miscategorized me, and then found me scummy for that miscategorization.  I think such an action is more likely to come from a scum member who is looking for a reason to paint a player as scummy than it is from a town member who is trying to puzzle out who the scum are.

[Voltaire]

The one thing that I think is scummy about Robz:

When he made his case on me day2, one of the premises in that case was that I was, "Making an attempt to appear active without actually contributing much."  That just wasn't true, as I had not posted in about three days entirely.  He miscategorized me, and then found me scummy for that miscategorization.  I think such an action is more likely to come from a scum member who is looking for a reason to paint a player as scummy than it is from a town member who is trying to puzzle out who the scum are.

nkirbit, have you re-read Robz's D3?

[nkirbit]

I thought day2 and still think that Voltaire's defense of Liopoil was very flimsy.  It really read to me like he had a vested interest in not being on the Liopoil wagon.

In the above post defending Liopoil, Voltaire's major reasoning for not being on the Lio wagon is that he thinks Lio is engaging in legitimate scumhunting.  Sure.

Anyway, Voltaire, what do you make of my point that, "Lio looks like he's been scumhunting" isn't a valid defense of Lio.  Do you agree with that?

It's actually a pretty good point, but you and mail-mi are strong scum reads.

Here we have Voltaire agreeing that Liopoil appearing to be scumhunting isn't a great defense of Liopoil because of the setup of the game.  So, Voltaire's main earlier stated reasoning for depending Liopoil is gone.

Now Voltaire shifts his defense to the fact that too many people are willing to lynch Liopoil, which I don't buy, especially when exactly five players indicated that they would be willing to lynch Lio.

At no point does Voltaire ever specifically address the cases presented by Shraeye, myself, or others.  He just throws out vague defenses, and when one defense got shot down, immediately slid to another.

I know that Lio did flip town, so it's not the most incriminating evidence towards Voltaire, but he really does appear to me to have made a decision to appear off-wagon for the Lio lynch.  I initially thought that it was because he was Lio's scumbuddy, but that's obviously not the case now.  But I think he could be scum trying to get towncred for opposing a mislynch.