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[Voltgloss]

And your argumentation is wrong. If you're getting killed, you haven't lost the game. Let's say you're lucky, and your partner kills the doctor. Then there are 5 left, 3 VT, 1 scum and 1 cop. It looks bad yeah, but it is far from over as the cop only got one more read which might be VT.

Wrong.  You forget that I've already confirmed a VT today.  So tomorrow we would have:  1 cop, 1 scum, 2 confirmed VT, 1 unconfirmed VT.  We lynch either the scum or the unconfirmed VT.  If we lynch the unconfirmed VT, we just lynch scum on the last day. 

The only way this could fail is if the person I confirmed today (Frisk) happened to be the Doctor.  But he's not, because if he were, he'd have counterclaimed joth on Day 2.  Remember back when I said that part of the reason I investigated Frisk was that he couldn't be the Doctor?  This is why that was so important.

[Qvist]

I don't think Volt would have pushed your wagon so hard if he were scumbuddies with you, so if he flips scum you're cleared in my mind.  Therefore asher would have to be scum.

So your theory is that I, joth, and ash voted 1-2-3 in immediate and quick succession on yuma on Day 2, all three of us being scum?

With me having replaced in after Day 2 started, and thus having no "opportunity" to converse with my supposed "scumbuddies?"

Actually that sounds very reasonable, because nobody would expect that. You start the game with an acussation of yuma, and some early votes gives you town credit.

[TheMunch]

This is called WIFOM.  I dont like it.  I prefer Occam's Razor to WIFOM

[Voltgloss]

And why did you try to start a bandwagon on yuma the night before if you didn't get a result until then? I really like to hear that too.

Why did you try to start a bandwagon on Frisk on Day 2 if you didn't get a result until Day 3?

[Axxle]

Axxle - what would it take to convince you that qvist is scum?

If you can point me to something, anything, that is strongly attributed to scum and not new player I'd consider it.  Considering most of Volt's case seems to require me to be scumbuddies with him I can see it's obviously crap.

[Qvist]

Would you be willing to lynch Axxle first?

I would prefer to lynch Qvist, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that Axxle is scum.

Lynching Qvist is better because then I can then investigate Axxle and confirm my 95% read to 100% certainty.  Or, if it's the 5% possibility of him just playing really really really badly as town, then we figure that out without a mislynch.

I think Qvist-or-me should be resolved today, while the town has a mislynch to spare. 

So at this point - no.  The town should lynch Qvist, who is 100% guaranteed scum.  I don't see a reason to settle for less.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Lynching Voltgloss is better because then I can then investigate ashersky and confirm my 95% read to 100% certainty.  Or, if it's the 5% possibility of him just playing really really really badly as town, then we figure that out without a mislynch.

I think Voltgloss-or-me should be resolved today, while the town has a mislynch to spare. 

So at this point - no.  The town should lynch Voltgloss, who is 100% guaranteed scum.  I don't see a reason to settle for less.

----

This is boring, such arguments are pointless. This was just an example, but such arguments are worth nothing. I could always reverse your posts to show you that there is nothing behind your posts. Stop trying to manipulate the other ones. They have to reread Day 1+2 and then decide which of our claims seems more reasonable. I hope they make the right decision.

[TheMunch]

Axxle - what would it take to convince you that qvist is scum?

If you can point me to something, anything, that is strongly attributed to scum and not new player I'd consider it.  Considering most of Volt's case seems to require me to be scumbuddies with him I can see it's obviously crap.

The problem is I'm remembering XIII where Ashersky (who was the real cop) was willing to make whatever arguments were necessary to make sure that people believed he was the real cop over doduo.  This ultimately put him in a bad position where he looked scummy for proposing these bad arguments.  In general I can see bad arguments just being the frustrated attempts of a real cop using whatever means necessary to make sure town makes the right decision.  At the same time I could also see scum using whatever arguments they can to make a mislynch go through, and sometimes the arguments they have to resort to are bad because they are made up arguments.

[TheMunch]

+143

[Qvist]

Why do you think QVist chose me to "fake" investigate?

One or both of the following reasons:

1.  As a new scum player, trying to answer the question "if I were Cop, who would I have investigated," Qvist reasoned that the correct answer is "whoever I claimed most often to be scum - I'd want to try to confirm my biggest scumread."  When in fact the better use of a Cop's power is on someone who is a null read to the Cop.

2.  My suspicions as voiced during Day 3 had two significant changes from Day 2:  (1) I suspected Qvist more than anyone else, even Axxle; and (2) I was convinced you (Frisk) were town.  Qvist, as scum knowing that they let the Cop get away with an investigation last night, would reasonably assume I had investigated either him or you.  By claiming to have investigated you - my own most likely Town investigatory target - Qvist could sow confusion by making it appear I was "copying" his investigation result.

#1 is the simpler explanation and thus probably more likely.

I didn't know about such a rule to read null reads. And if I'm honest I cannot see the point why you should investigate null reads. It seemed more obvious to me to investigate someone and confirm my read.

[Qvist]

Do you think this counterclaim was planned?

I think they planned that, if Eevee wasn't in fact the Cop, and if a Cop claimed today with an investigation result ON either one of them, then the incriminated party would counterfakeclaim.  It's their only hope to win in the face of impending Follow-the-Cop.

When I claimed Cop without revealing my investigation results, and waited for everybody to counterclaim-or-not, I think Qvist reasoned "if he investigated me and I don't counterfakeclaim right now, we lose; his posts today suggest he could have investigated me; I better counterfakeclaim while I have the chance."

Notice also how Axxle posted absolutely no content after my claim (other than his "back to the drawing board" unvote).  He was waiting for Qvist's counterfakeclaim, immediately after which he (Axxle) pounced to back it up.

I think the claim is obviously planned, I mean the day were only a few hours old and Voltgloss tried immediately to convince everyone why claiming should be done. After TheMunch and Axxle didn't seem to like it, he got nervous and just claimed.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

[TheMunch]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

As someone who plays a lot of hypotheticals in my head and has made this mistake THIS GAME I dont find it to be that damning.

[Axxle]

Volt / Qvist

Why do you think that scum allowed an investigation to go through?

I think they thought Eevee was the Cop, based on his apparent breadcrumb.  And I think they thought the Doctor caught that same "breadcrumb" as well.  So they expected the Doctor to protect Eevee.  So they shut off the Doctor and killed Eevee, hoping they were hitting the Cop.

FWIW I think this was a bad plan.  Eevee's posts implied getting an investigation result which obviously didn't happen.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

As someone who plays a lot of hypotheticals in my head and has made this mistake THIS GAME I dont find it to be that damning.

My post is 50% a joke for Frisk's benefit.

The other 50% is this point:  all qvist did in that post was copy my post and change names.  But apparently he went out of his way to change that word, "scum" to "town."  Why?

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

[Qvist]

Question. Why would scum counterclaim after we just outlined reasons why it was in fact very good for scum if only the real cop claimed?

Because all of the reasons we discussed leading up to my claim had a baseline, reasonable, but incorrect assumption:  That the Cop had no meaningful investigation results.

This was, in fact, not correct.  Only three people knew that the Cop had a meaningful investigation:  myself, and the two scum.  The Cop having an investigation today that clears town dramatically changes things.  They feared that I, as Cop, had an incriminating investigation result in my back pocket.  That's why they felt they had to counterclaim.

Exactly. Scum knew that the cop got a result. So this is the opportunity. Let's first convince everyone that claiming is pro-town, then claim, wait for a counterclaim, perfect.

[Qvist]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

Haha, cool. TheMunch noticed this too. You bring up arguments and arguments without saying anything which can't be reversed.

[TheMunch]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

Haha, cool. TheMunch noticed this too. You bring up arguments and arguments without saying anything which can't be reversed.

<3

[Captain_Frisk]

Question. Why would scum counterclaim after we just outlined reasons why it was in fact very good for scum if only the real cop claimed?

Because all of the reasons we discussed leading up to my claim had a baseline, reasonable, but incorrect assumption:  That the Cop had no meaningful investigation results.

This was, in fact, not correct.  Only three people knew that the Cop had a meaningful investigation:  myself, and the two scum.  The Cop having an investigation today that clears town dramatically changes things.  They feared that I, as Cop, had an incriminating investigation result in my back pocket.  That's why they felt they had to counterclaim.

Exactly. Scum knew that the cop got a result. So this is the opportunity. Let's first convince everyone that claiming is pro-town, then claim, wait for a counterclaim, perfect.

Qvist - why do you think scum let you have your investigation last night?

[Qvist]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Scum wouldn't want to fakeclaim Cop today if they can avoid it.  What they were hoping was that the Cop had "only" a town investigative result (or, even better, tried to investigate Eevee and thus had no info at all), thus giving them a chance to kill the Doc tonight and the Cop tomorrow before the entire scumteam is outed.

I expect that if I had claimed Cop and, in the same breath, said I had "only" an investigation result on town, then they would NOT have counterclaimed and instead laid low.  The only reason they are fakecounterclaiming is because they felt they absolutely HAD to do so.

Side note:  there's nothing in Qvist's Day 3 posts before his fakecounterclaim to suggest he could be the Cop.  Remember is lukewarm response to the counterclaim idea.  A new Cop player who hasn't already claimed would not react that way.

Being the first one doesn't give you any credibility. Why not waiting until everyone agrees with the claim? This could have been way better for you. You couldn't await to execute your devised plan, huh?

[Qvist]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

Why? I wasn't sure. Period. It would be pretty bad for town if I agreed blindly with claiming and then realized later how bad it actually was.

[Voltgloss]

Being the first one doesn't give you any credibility. Why not waiting until everyone agrees with the claim? This could have been way better for you. You couldn't await to execute your devised plan, huh?

If I were scum, and if that were my plan, I would absolutely have waited for everyone to agree with massclaim - or not fakeclaimed at all if people didn't respond.

I didn't wait.  Because I'm not scum.  I'm town.  And my plan was not what you claim it was. 

My plan was to discuss massclaim as a possibility to gauge peoples' reactions.  Axxle's, in particular, was very telling.  And yours is telling in retrospect - because it belies your fakeclaim.

[Voltgloss]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

Why? I wasn't sure. Period. It would be pretty bad for town if I agreed blindly with claiming and then realized later how bad it actually was.

My point isn't that you should have "agreed blindly."  My point is that, if you were the Cop, as a new player your response should have been much more AGAINST massclaim.

Really, I was expecting the person most likely to fakeclaim me would be Axxle, because of how strongly against massclaim he was.  As someone pointed out, Axxle's reaction to massclaim read as either (1) cop not wanting to be outed or (2) scum scared of massclaim. 

[Qvist]

QVist, I know that english isn't you're language, so you're at a disadvantage to Volt "The Situation" Gloss here, but I'd really appreciate it if you can try to respond to Volt's case, and explain why you feel that his claim is false, and why it took you 45 minutes to decide to come forward with your claim.

First, I already explained that it weren't 45 minutes. I started to do the reread around 20 minutes before posting, reading around 15 minutes until the claim. And then wrote the counteclaim. Though, before finishing my work at home I checked how many new responds were made in this thread, saw that it were a lot, so I knew I had to read them before sleeping. Then I went to the bathroom and such. I don't know how this forum software works, but I think every click shows you as online in that specific thread for a certain period of time. I don't know how long that time is. Maybe someone can ask theory, if you don't believe me.

[TheMunch]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

Why? I wasn't sure. Period. It would be pretty bad for town if I agreed blindly with claiming and then realized later how bad it actually was.

My point isn't that you should have "agreed blindly."  My point is that, if you were the Cop, as a new player your response should have been much more AGAINST massclaim.

Really, I was expecting the person most likely to fakeclaim me would be Axxle, because of how strongly against massclaim he was.  As someone pointed out, Axxle's reaction to massclaim read as either (1) cop not wanting to be outed or (2) scum scared of massclaim.

Then what about my reaction to massclaim?