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[Insomniac]

Welcome to Mafia XVII - Why is it so dark in here?

Note: This game will NOT start if it will interfere with other games that were in the queue first (Hydra, MXIV [Jorbles - Seaside])
Once those games have started it will start when there is enough people signed up that want the game to start.

The setup is for 13 players.
1. Captain_Frisk
2. jotheonah - Lycnhed Day 2 - Mafia Vig Switch
3. Robz - Killed Night 0 - Vanilla Townie
4. Eevee - Killed Night 2 - Vanilla Townie
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced
6. Axxle - Lynched Day 3 - Vanilla Townie
7. eHunt - Killed Night 1 - Vanilla Townie
8. yuma - Killed Night 4 - Vanilla Townie
9. cuzz - Killed Night 0 - Town Vigilante
10. ashersky - Lynched Day 4 - Mafia Doctor Switch
11. QVist
12. TheMunch - Killed Night 3 - Town Doctor
13. Galzria - Lynched Day 1 - Serial Killer

This game will use a SWITCH setup.  (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Switch_(Setup))

THIS GAME WILL HAVE A NIGHT START

The setup will be as follows
1 Mafia Cop Switch
1 Mafia Doctor Switch
1 Mafia Vigilante Switch
1 Serial Killer
1 Cop
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
6 Vanilla Townies

The difference between this and normal is as follows. There are 3 switches. Each switch can opt to turn the switch off, if they do they cannot perform the factional kill. Additionally the SK may flip ANY of 0-3 switches. (Mafia and SK choosing the same thing results in ON, while choosing different things will result in the switch being OFF). If the switch is OFF after the Mafia/SK toggles the town role is roleblocked, otherwise it can function normally. Every night the switches start as ON. Town PR's are not told whether their kill goes through or not.

The serial killer chooses one of TWO abilities pre game, he is either immune to the mafia night kill, or he is immune to the town vig and town cop.

Mafia Ruleset (blatantly stolen from Axxle)

Game Rules:

General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to me by the posted deadline. If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 2 week deadlines. If a player or No Lynch does not have a simple majority at deadline, no lynch will occur, and the game will go into night.
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 72 hours of no activity or upon request after 48 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.


The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Helpful Links:

• Main Wiki Page
  
  
• Newbie Guide
  
  
• Frequently Asked Questions
  
  
• Commonly Used Abbreviations
  
  
• Mafia Theory

Role PMs to follow.

[Insomniac]

ROLE PMS

Mafia Vigilante Switch
Welcome to Mafia XVII!

Welcome, [Player Name]. You are the Mafia Vigilante Switch, along with your partners, [Player Name] and [Player Name].

Abilities:
Factional communication: During the night phase you may talk with your partners here [QuickTopic link].
Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partners may perform the factional kill providing they aren't also using their switch.
Vig Switch: You may use the Vig Switch to deactivate the Vig. Note: it's possible that the SK could reverse your decision.

Win condition:
You win when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

-----------------------------------------

Mafia Doctor Switch
Welcome to Mafia XVII!

Welcome, [Player Name]. You are the Mafia Doctor Switch, along with your partners, [Player Name] and [Player Name].

Abilities:
Factional communication: During the night phase you may talk with your partners here [QuickTopic link].
Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partners may perform the factional kill providing they aren't also using their switch.
Doctor Switch: You may use the Doctor Switch to deactivate the Doctor. Note: it's possible that the SK could reverse your decision.

Win condition:
You win when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

-----------------------------------------

Mafia Cop Switch
Welcome to Mafia XVII!

Welcome, [Player Name]. You are the Mafia Cop Switch, along with your partners, [Player Name] and [Player Name].

Abilities:
Factional communication: During the night phase you may talk with your partners here [QuickTopic link].
Factional kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partners may perform the factional kill providing they aren't also using their switch.
Cop Switch: You may use the Cop Switch to deactivate the Cop . Note: it's possible that the SK could reverse your decision.

Win condition:
You win when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

-----------------------------------------

Town Doc
Welcome to Mafia XVII!

Welcome, [Player Name], you are the Town Doctor.

Abilities:
Each night, you may attempt to protect a player in the game. It's possible your protection will fail if you have been deactivated.

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
-----------------------------------------

Town Cop
Welcome to Mafia XVII!

Welcome, [Player Name], you are the Town Cop.

Abilities:
Each night, you may attempt to investigate a player in the game. It's possible that you will not receive a result if you have been deactivated.

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
-----------------------------------------

Town Vigilante
Welcome to Mafia XVII!

Welcome, [Player Name], you are the Town Vigilante.

Abilities:
Each night, you may to kill a player in the game. It's possible that your attempt will fail if you have been deactivated.

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
-----------------------------------------

Vanilla Townie
Welcome to Mafia XVII!

Welcome, [Player Name], you are the Vanilla Townie.

Abilities:
None. Your voice and vote are your weapons.

Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.
-----------------------------------------

Serial Killer
Welcome, [Player Name]. You are the Serial Killer.

Abilities:
Pregame you must choose to be either immune to the Mafia Nightkill OR be immune to Vig/Cop.
Each night phase, you may select a player in the game to nightkill.
Each night phase, you may reverse the state of any switch. This will trigger the opposite outcome of how the mafia have left a switch.

Win condition:
You win when you are the last player alive or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

[jotheonah]

+1

[Robz888]

In

[Grujah]

In, like the setup. Shouldn't be in many games by than.

[Voltgloss]

Whether I can join is gonna depend on personal circumstances when this gets off the ground. 

One question:  the original setup calls for 14 players (7 VTs), while this setup has only 13.  Is that intentional? 

[Eevee]

Yeah, confriming my in-ness.

[Eevee]

Yeah, confriming my in-ness.

Feels good to be up there without posting in the thread. 

[Insomniac]

Whether I can join is gonna depend on personal circumstances when this gets off the ground. 

One question:  the original setup calls for 14 players (7 VTs), while this setup has only 13.  Is that intentional?

Yes indeed 13 feels better. also in the sample games 12 was a mafia win while 14 was a town win.

[cayvie]

it's a little weird deciding whether to sign up for this without knowing if i'm going to be in two games that start before it

[ehunt]

I hereby erase my game and screw up the numerology and simultaneously sign up for your game.

[yuma]

tentative in... I have no idea at what stage I will be in at this point...

[cayvie]

yeah alright, i'll /in

[Cuzz]

/in

[Insomniac]

I hereby erase my game and screw up the numerology and simultaneously sign up for your game.

I hereby steal your number

[ashersky]

Sounds neat.  /in

[Qvist]

I waited long for a newbie friendly game. It seems like it might be. If yes, I'm in...

[Captain_Frisk]

Don't worry about it qvist.  Jump in with both feet. 

[Insomniac]

I waited long for a newbie friendly game. It seems like it might be. If yes, I'm in...

Of course this will be newb friendly! If you have any questions about rules etc I will be happy to answer them

[jotheonah]

What if you made a huge version of this setup where in addition to the three mafia switches, there were three town switches that turned the mafia switches on and off (Town Doctor Switch Switch)?

And then there was a second SK that could flip any of those switches?

And then there was a second scum team with a switch busdriver, and an investigative ability called "Electrician who could determine if someone had or was hooked up to a switch?

[Captain_Frisk]

What if you made a huge version of this setup where in addition to the three mafia switches, there were three town switches that turned the mafia switches on and off (Town Doctor Switch Switch)?

And then there was a second SK that could flip any of those switches?

And then there was a second scum team with a switch busdriver, and an investigative ability called "Electrician who could determine if someone had or was hooked up to a switch?

Needs at least 26 players.

[Insomniac]

What if you made a huge version of this setup where in addition to the three mafia switches, there were three town switches that turned the mafia switches on and off (Town Doctor Switch Switch)?

And then there was a second SK that could flip any of those switches?

And then there was a second scum team with a switch busdriver, and an investigative ability called "Electrician who could determine if someone had or was hooked up to a switch?

seems really complicated and built for more people than I want

[Qvist]

So, I'm in. Let's try it out.

I think I'll regret it.

[shraeye]

Sounds complicated.  Can anyone give me an estimated start date?

[Insomniac]

Alright so if MXIV gets to day 3, there are 13 conf ins and Hydra hasn't started, we will start.

Otherwise we will start when one of Hydra/MXIV get to day 3 whichever comes last. This is in favour of getting rolling starts going.

[Captain_Frisk]

Alright so if MXIV gets to day 3, there are 13 conf ins and Hydra hasn't started, we will start.

Otherwise we will start when one of Hydra/MXIV get to day 3 whichever comes last. This is in favour of getting rolling starts going.

+15, even if it means agreeing with Obvscum mod.

[Insomniac]

Alright so if MXIV gets to day 3, there are 13 conf ins and Hydra hasn't started, we will start.

Otherwise we will start when one of Hydra/MXIV get to day 3 whichever comes last. This is in favour of getting rolling starts going.

+15, even if it means agreeing with Obvscum mod.

You win one MVP award as scum and your obvscum in all forums

[Insomniac]

Bump still need one more and I should be able to start this relatively soon so I'll need confirms from yuma/Voltgloss (I'm thinking during night 2 of XIV we will get this thing rolling)

[jotheonah]

*cough*threadtitle*cough*

[yuma]

Bump still need one more and I should be able to start this relatively soon so I'll need confirms from yuma/Voltgloss (I'm thinking during night 2 of XIV we will get this thing rolling)

not going to confirm yet, I am already in 2 games, that is enough for me atm.

[Jorbles]

Question, who knows the state of the switches and when is this information made available to them (ie. before they flick them, during the day after night actions are resolved, or never)?

[Insomniac]

Question, who knows the state of the switches and when is this information made available to them (ie. before they flick them, during the day after night actions are resolved, or never)?

No one it's great wifom. They are all on at the beginning of the night.

[cayvie]

i think i have to /out this one

i'm not dead in any of my games and it's affecting my ability to play usefully

[TheMunch]

I would love to be the 13th.

[Insomniac]

I would love to be the 13th.

You're in, cayvie is out so your only the 12th, and only if yuma and volt both confirm.

[Grujah]

put me as "tentatively" instead.

[yuma]

I would love to be the 13th.

You're in, cayvie is out so your only the 12th, and only if yuma and volt both confirm.

not confirmed yet, but if you get someone to play instead of me, feel free to start it up w/o me.

[Insomniac]

Bump, we need 3 confirms and 1 more player to fire.

[Galzria]

I know I'll regret this, but for Insomniac and all y'all others, /in.

[Insomniac]

Roles have been rolled. Just waiting for confirms/declines on the 3 and in the case of declines, subs for the declines.

[Galzria]

Where's CF?

Just send me my PM already.

[Insomniac]

He already got his... /troll

[jotheonah]

I'm confused. should I have gotten a PM?

[Insomniac]

Nope, I have a pm for everyone but I need confirms from Voltgloss, Grujah and yuma before I send them out.

(They said tentative ins as opposed to just inning)

[Insomniac]

Reminder that this game has a night start and thus won't actually start until 48 hours after it 'starts'.

[yuma]

/confreakingfirm

[Grujah]

hmmm... When are Domafia and Shakespeare and Ozle's game starting?

[Insomniac]

hmmm... When are Domafia and Shakespeare and Ozle's game starting?

Those are all on hold
Shakespeare-- After RMM3
DoMafia -- After Shakespeare
Ozle -- Until the forum has a manageable number of concurrent games running.

[Grujah]

in than.

[ashersky]

Do I need to say something here?  Confirm, in, all that.

[Insomniac]

Do I need to say something here?  Confirm, in, all that.

We're just waiting on Volt (if he out's were also waiting for a replacement)

[Eevee]

Gah I'm tempted to /out. Would that jeopardize getting this going?

[yuma]

Gah I'm tempted to /out. Would that jeopardize getting this going?

wow... eevee you have been in every numbered game since MVI... not to guilt trip you into staying thou...

[Eevee]

Gah I'm tempted to /out. Would that jeopardize getting this going?

wow... eevee you have been in every numbered game since MVI... not to guilt trip you into staying thou...

Fine, I might not be very active though.

[Insomniac]

Gah I'm tempted to /out. Would that jeopardize getting this going?

wow... eevee you have been in every numbered game since MVI... not to guilt trip you into staying thou...

Fine, I might not be very active though.

Yes it would if you outted. It will if Volt outs as well.

[Eevee]

I'll play then!

[Robz888]

Can't have a game without Eevee! He's Robz Jr. for joining every game.

[Galzria]

Can't have a game without Eevee! He's Robz Jr. for joining every game.

Hey, I've only skipped our on 1, 10 and 12. I've got 8 completed numbered games, dead in XI, alive in XIII and XIV, and now here in XV! So that puts me at 12 of 15! I don't know if anybody but you has a higher number.

If we drop M-I as the launching pad, and count you as out of M-XI... I'm at 12/14 to your 13/14. I WILL catch you one of these days!

P.S. My winning percentage is still better than yours.

P.P.S. Damn you O for pulling a 7% higher winning percentage than me!

P.P.P.S. Wow, I was slightly wrong above. Props to CF and Eevee for being in so many games!

[Robz888]

Well I never said I was GOOD at mafia, just persistent. (Although ZM2 shouldn't count! Other than my win percentage is fair...)

[Galzria]

Well I never said I was GOOD at mafia, just persistent. (Although ZM2 shouldn't count! Other than my win percentage is fair...)

Eh, ľ the time I feel like I'm just getting dragged along anyway. I don't recall being on the winning side of half the games I've got W's in. Persistence... Ha! I'd be out of half the games I'm in if it weren't for the mods guilting me into having to play! 

[Insomniac]

Bump need a replacement for Volt!

[Voltgloss]

Sorry all, need to /out per my message to Insom.  Honestly, I don't even remember /inning for this one in the first place!

But too swamped with hurricane, baby, work, and current games.  Apologies all around.

[Captain_Frisk]

When is this scheduled to start?  With my power situation and ZM3 - I'm going to also /out unless it starts no earlier than next week.

[Insomniac]

When is this scheduled to start?  With my power situation and ZM3 - I'm going to also /out unless it starts no earlier than next week.

Depends when enough players are in, based on losing another player realistically itll have to be next week.

[Insomniac]

We have enough to fire this Monday next week

[Insomniac]

Thread Locked. Anticipate PM's soon

[Insomniac]

Thread still locked except for posting "Confirmed"

[Galzria]

I have a PM. Haven't checked it. Assume it's for this. Confirmed.

[jotheonah]

Confirmed.

[Cuzz]

Confirmed!

[ehunt]

confirmed

[ashersky]

Confirmed.

[Axxle]

Confirmed

[yuma]

confirm

[Eevee]

confirmed.

[Qvist]

confirmed

[Captain_Frisk]

Confirmed.

[Insomniac]

And thats all but 3. Night 0 has now begun. Night actions are due by November 6 2012 at Noon PST. (3pm forum time). (Reduced time Night 0 as it is essentially pre game) If I get all Night actions early I will open the thread early.

[TheMunch]

Confirmed.

[Grujah]

Confirmed.

[Robz888]

COnfirmed.

[Insomniac]

The power had been finicky over the last few days, you had been staying in a resort that Insomniac had put you all up in to announce big news. He hadn't announced it yet but planned to announce it soon. For whatever reason the power had had trouble staying on as though there were two different people one nocturnal and one diurnal so they kept fighting over the light switches. Anyways tonight was the big night he had invited you all to dinner in the main area.

You all arrived in the main area excited to hear what the big news was I mean it's not just any day that you get put up in a resort for news! Insomniac started.

"Welcome all of you, and I thank you all for coming. You all know that I brought you hear to share my big news with you and well I won't keep you waiting, the news is," as he said this the lights went out, "I've recently come int...." 3 gunshots resonated the darkened room, the voice you all know as Insomniac did not start speaking again, quickly some murmuring between all of you started to take place you were all confused and a bit scared, I mean only a little while ago you heard about some people staying at Ozle's mansion and getting murdered left right and center all of them even had similar names!

The lights came back and you noticed Insomniac was slouched over his face lying squarely in his soup and a bullethole in the bridge of his nose. Everyone starts to panic. It is then that you notice he wasn't the only one shot, I mean there was THREE shots after all. Eventually you see Robz and Cuzz each took a bullet to the chest, knocking the chairs they sat in over, their bodies lifeless on the floor. What do you do when someone is murdering your friends? Figure out who it is (and who the jerk is messing with the lights).

Robz888 the Vanilla townie is dead
Cuzz the town Vigilante is dead

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am

Thread Unlocked

[Captain_Frisk]

Thank you scum for not killing me.  That would have been really mean.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Galzria for killing RobZ.

[ehunt]

Vote: Galzria for killing RobZ.

That's compelling! vote: Galzria

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, for being alive.

If you were scum, and feared one player in this game - who would it be?

[Captain_Frisk]

And for lurking - look at the post counts people.

[Qvist]

I'm excited for my first game and I got not night killed, thanks for that.
But still two townies dead, one of them with a power role, that's bad.
Is random voting normal? Let's just try it. Vote: TheMunch for seemingly only playing Mafia and not posting in Dominion threads.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh, maybe we should be voting for Qvist so he can get back to making lists for us.

[Galzria]

I posted to this effect in the V/LA thread, and I sent this to Insomniac around 1:00 am this morning, but now that this thread is officially launched I'll post it here:

" By the way, HUGE FoS @ You for really kicking this off on Election Day. I'm going to be booked solid for the next 24+ hours, so if people start to lurker lynch me, I'll blame you.

Seriously though, expect, like, absolutely nothing from me for the next day or two. Between work and then crashing afterward, I'll be down hard. I report in 3 hours, and don't expect to wrap up until around 3:00 am (Eastern) on Wednesday. After that will follow hours of collapse, post-election day coverage, more collapsing, and traveling home. I won't be coherent until Thursday most likely."

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Gazria for trying to defend during RVS.  This vote is not RVS.

[TheMunch]

RVS Vote: Qvist for implying I dont know anything about Dominion!  I'll school you son!

On topic, I dont know how much we are actually supposed to be reading into flavor, but the setup is supposed to have mafia/sk/vig.  I assume these are the three "gunshots" we heard.  However, Insom woke up with a bullet hole... Does that mean one of these powers wasted a kill on the mod?

[ehunt]

...theMunch plays 2 platinums and 2 Golds
...theMunch plays a Contraband
... ...QVist prohibits theMunch from buying Colonies
...theMunch buys an Explorer
...theMunch buys a Contraband
(theMunch reshuffles)

(j/k j/k theMunch dont hate)

unvote. I actually took Frisk's first argument seriously - Robz being dead makes Galzria suspicious, inherently, because Galzria is more likely to think about Robz when he makes a decision due to their relationship from ancient MII. But I also think Galzria would feel bad for Robz who hasn't gotten to live very long in most of the recent games. So Robzkill could be sign of relatively newer mafia.

If I were mafia I would certainly have killed Frisk after what we saw in MV; I suspect with all the switchage this game is going to have an MV feel. So this makes Frisk look a little suspicious. But OTOH wifom, plus maybe mafia's not familiar with that game.

Cuzzkill I don't get.

[ehunt]

oh yeah, i dont agree with Frisk's second argument . Galzria made a big deal out of how he would be busy all Tuesday and is annoyed that there are two votes on him.

[Eevee]

I don't think Galz is suspicious for making it clear he is going to be gone for a while. I'm also starting to think it might not be the best idea to lynch active and skilled guys day 1. I'm not going robzy 'lets kill a newbie!', just that I'd prefer to have someone like Galz around for tomorrow because he can be quite an asset even as a VT.

[Captain_Frisk]

I don't think Galz is suspicious for making it clear he is going to be gone for a while. I'm also starting to think it might not be the best idea to lynch active and skilled guys day 1. I'm not going robzy 'lets kill a newbie!', just that I'd prefer to have someone like Galz around for tomorrow because he can be quite an asset even as a VT.

Oh no - I was kidding about the lurking, but as scum I would have 100% shot galz.  He's just as likely to be a power role as anyone else, and I'd rather not have his experience against me for sure.

[jotheonah]

I'm finding myself annoyed by this night start. It seems really unfair that we are down a power role and there's nothing we could have done about it! If I were Cuzz I'd be majorly pissed.

[TheMunch]

@ehunt: I think that is actually an insult against QVist for allowing me to even buy platinums with a contraband strategy.  For shame qvist!

Regarding ehunt's actual content generating discussion, I completely forgot that ya'll have every game of mafia on this site memorized and that potentially night 0 kills are not necessarily random.  I think the relationship ehunt brings up between Galz and Robz is more interesting and I would support such cases built on positive associations (if ehunt could make up his mind on which one is more likely).  However, I disagree with ehunt's second case on Frisk.  In general I would say it is a bad idea to build these cases on negative information, vis a vis "if Frisk wasn't mafia then mafia would have killed him because of MV so he is must be mafia."  Similar I would say that such cases aren't WIFOM-like-arguments because it is too convoluted for mafia to assume "someone is going to make a case on Frisk because of MV if we dont kill him."

   

[Eevee]

Vote: joth

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 1-1

Galzria (1) - Captain_Frisk
TheMunch (1) - QVist
QVist (1) - TheMunch
Jotheonah (1) - Eevee

Not Voting (7) - jotheonah, Grujah, Axxle, yuma, ashersky, Galzria, eHunt

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

[jotheonah]

Is that RVS, Eevee? Or do you think it's scummy to be annoyed by a night-start PR kill? It just seems like it's going to make this game an uphill battle from Day 1. Granted, we're no strangers to losing PRs early and often.

[Eevee]

Idk, I don't believe in true RVS, casting votes for no reason whatsoever is just a distraction to me. Your post felt sort of forced, like the famous "geez that sucked" after a power role gets nightkilled or something. The fact that a power role might die night 0 has been take into account when balancing the setup. The vig firing one of our own and getting shot by mafia is unfortunate, but if we manage to lynch mafia today, we'd be in GREAT shape again so I don't see a reason to get annoyed.

[ehunt]

Idk, I don't believe in true RVS, casting votes for no reason whatsoever is just a distraction to me. Your post felt sort of forced, like the famous "geez that sucked" after a power role gets nightkilled or something. The fact that a power role might die night 0 has been take into account when balancing the setup. The vig firing one of our own and getting shot by mafia is unfortunate, but if we manage to lynch mafia today, we'd be in GREAT shape again so I don't see a reason to get annoyed.

I think it's almost certain that Cuzz didn't fire.

[Qvist]

RVS, VT, WIFOM, FOS.
It's hard to read for me with that many abbreviations. RVS means Random Vote, right? But I'm still missing the S here.
And what is FOS?

Another question: Shouldn't there be 3 night kills or do I miss something? Mafia, Vigilante and Serial Killer.
@Eevee: I don't think the viligante did one of the kills. I rather think it was the Serial Killer.

@TheMunch: I wasn't arguing about not knowing about Dominion, rather than posting in Dominion threads, but fine: unvote.

Let's generate some discussion: Vote:Grujah

[Axxle]

RVS - Random voting stage
VT - Vanilla Townie, someone without a power.
WIFOM - Wine in front of me. 
FOS - Finger of Suspicion

Commonly used abbreviations: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations

We don't use all of them, but we do use some.

The two kills are most definitely the SK (serial killer) and mafia.  It's very antitown to just randomly shoot pregame, and I think Cuzz is a better player than that.

Vote: Joth

I agree that his annoyance sounds very forced.

[Grujah]

Random Vote Stage, Vanilla Townie, Wine in Front of Me, Finger of Suspicion.

I get Robz getting shot, but I don't think it was that wise for scum to do. Mleh.

[Eevee]

Lol sorry. I once again fail at reading the setup. Carry on.

[Captain_Frisk]

RVS, VT, WIFOM, FOS.
It's hard to read for me with that many abbreviations. RVS means Random Vote, right? But I'm still missing the S here.
And what is FOS?

Another question: Shouldn't there be 3 night kills or do I miss something? Mafia, Vigilante and Serial Killer.
@Eevee: I don't think the viligante did one of the kills. I rather think it was the Serial Killer.

@TheMunch: I wasn't arguing about not knowing about Dominion, rather than posting in Dominion threads, but fine: unvote.

Let's generate some discussion: Vote:Grujah

RVS: Random Vote Stage
VT: Vanilla Town - regular dude who can only vote
WIFOM: Wine in front of Me (Princess bride reference)
FOS: Finger of Suspicion - short hand for calling attention to someone without voting for whatever reason.

[Captain_Frisk]

RVS - Random voting stage
VT - Vanilla Townie, someone without a power.
WIFOM - Wine in front of me. 
FOS - Finger of Suspicion

Commonly used abbreviations: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations

We don't use all of them, but we do use some.

The two kills are most definitely the SK (serial killer) and mafia.  It's very antitown to just randomly shoot pregame, and I think Cuzz is a better player than that.

Vote: Joth

I agree that his annoyance sounds very forced.

With 4 scum targets, and 2 other PRs, random shooting probably does make sense.  I think theorel did some simulations in another game.

Also - its very possible that the vig switch was disabled last night, so even if Cuzz wanted to shoot, it might not have worked.

[Captain_Frisk]

Bump?  Come on guys, Day 1 RVS is exciting times, rather than the outcome of an election that is 90% decided.

[Qvist]

Bump?  Come on guys, Day 1 RVS is exciting times, rather than the outcome of an election that is 90% decided.

I don't know what to say to be honest. Thanks for the translation. I already knew all beside of FoS, it was the sum of the abbrevations that was too much.
Vigilante Switch might be disabled yes, but I understand that's really risky to shoot in the dark as vigilante either way.
So that means it's likely that SK and Mafia did the two kills. What do everyone think who was killed by which faction exactly?
I don't know if this important, I just want to generate some discussion. In that way, vote: ashersky.
What is the general play in Day 1? I mean we have basically no information. We cannot do anything else than random vote.

[ashersky]

Vote: Eevee for espousing the lynch all newbies mantra of the Late Robz888.  We saw how that worked out.  Double points for referencing it and acting like that's not what he's doing.

Vote: Munch for reading the freaking flavour when this is not that type of game.  Also, if someone can killmod, instead of modkill, that's OP for either side.

Vote: Qvist, standard OMGUS.

Vote: joth for fake indignation at the Night Start.

Vote: Frisk for killing Robz, because Frisk didn't want to die again so soon, and for immediately deflecting attention to Galz, when he knows he's always obvscum and Robz can sniff it out!

[jotheonah]

Bump?  Come on guys, Day 1 RVS is exciting times, rather than the outcome of an election that is 90% decided.

I don't know what to say to be honest. Thanks for the translation. I already knew all beside of FoS, it was the sum of the abbrevations that was too much.
Vigilante Switch might be disabled yes, but I understand that's really risky to shoot in the dark as vigilante either way.
So that means it's likely that SK and Mafia did the two kills. What do everyone think who was killed by which faction exactly?
I don't know if this important, I just want to generate some discussion. In that way, vote: ashersky.
What is the general play in Day 1? I mean we have basically no information. We cannot do anything else than random vote.

We have way more info than a normal Day 1. Also, ashersky, that was more real frustration than fake indignation. I'd be interested to see someone put together F.DS stats, but I rather suspect the "Well this sucks" is an overrated "scumslip."

I'll be out for the evening, may or may not be back on tonight. BIG day at work tomorrow, need my beauty sleep.

[Eevee]

I'd be interested to see someone put together F.DS stats, but I rather suspect the "Well this sucks" is an overrated "scumslip."

This I 100% agree with.

[jotheonah]

Really? No posts in 5 hours?

[ehunt]

Really? No posts in 5 hours?

there was an election! plus i was playing IRL mafia with my friends. anyway, galzria, the election is over, your job is to be back immediately or else face instant fists full of fos's.

[ehunt]

theory talk soon.

basically town is screwed is the tl;dr.

[ehunt]

as i was fleshing things out i realized that theory-posting profoundly helps scum and i don't want to explain this argument as i think explaining it helps scum too. i recognize that this is a frustrating position to take, sorry. i feel very strongly about it.

[jotheonah]

The (only) important theory question to ask, I think, is "Is there game-breaking claim strategy that needs to be implemented now?"  And I think the answer to that is unequivocally "no," given that we have no guarantee any given night action will actually work. That rules out FTC, unless we want to place our fate in the hands of WIFOM between scum and SK.

[ehunt]

The (only) important theory question to ask, I think, is "Is there game-breaking claim strategy that needs to be implemented now?"  And I think the answer to that is unequivocally "no," given that we have no guarantee any given night action will actually work. That rules out FTC, unless we want to place our fate in the hands of WIFOM between scum and SK.

yeah i like theory talk in general cause it gives me something to do on day one but not in this game...

presumably we should analyze the night kills, but i don't really have anything to say

[Qvist]

as i was fleshing things out i realized that theory-posting profoundly helps scum and i don't want to explain this argument as i think explaining it helps scum too. i recognize that this is a frustrating position to take, sorry. i feel very strongly about it.

I don't understand a word. And how can you have a theory already? And why are we screwed?
And is this normal that it is so quiet here? Are all celebrating election parties? yuma hasn't even posted yet...

[ehunt]

as i was fleshing things out i realized that theory-posting profoundly helps scum and i don't want to explain this argument as i think explaining it helps scum too. i recognize that this is a frustrating position to take, sorry. i feel very strongly about it.

I don't understand a word. And how can you have a theory already? And why are we screwed?
And is this normal that it is so quiet here? Are all celebrating election parties? yuma hasn't even posted yet...

sorry, more mafia slang. by "theory" i mean "abstract discussion about the game set-up, like, what should the so-and-so special role do and what choices do we expect so-and-so to make." I think that discussion is very dangerous and should not be engaged in.

not "theory" in the sense of "i have a theory about who the mafia is." if i have a theory about who the mafia is, i will definitely let you know!!

[jotheonah]

Qvist: I know English isn't your first language, so I think you might be getting hungup on the multiple uses of the word "theory" - A theory is like, a particular idea of what is the case. Theory (without an article) just refers to metadiscussion of the game or setup. So ehunt is saying that discussion of the setup; attemps to break it, etc., is better for scum than town right now.

theory is also, of course, the guy who made this site.

[jotheonah]

ninja'd by ehunt who explained it better. hope I didn't come off as condescending there, QV.

[Qvist]

Ah ok. Not knowing mafia very well and that English isn't my first language were the reasons I haven't joined Mafia earlier. But like Dominion, maybe I just have to play more often to understand.
Thanks for the clarifications.

[Captain_Frisk]

Post count time:

1. Captain_Frisk: 15
2. jotheonah: 12
4. Eevee: 11
5. Grujah: 6
6. Axxle: 2
7. eHunt: 11
8. yuma: 6
10. ashersky: 4
11. QVist: 8
12. TheMunch: 4
13. Galzria: 6

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 1-1

Galzria (1) - Captain_Frisk
Ashersky(1) - QVist
QVist (1) - TheMunch
Jotheonah (2) - Eevee, Axxle
Captain_Frisk (1) - Ashersky


Not Voting (6) - jotheonah, Grujah, yuma, ashersky, Galzria, eHunt

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

[Axxle]

Not Voting (76)

Dat 70-tuple vote.

[Insomniac]

Not Voting (76)

Dat 70-tuple vote.

Oops lol, Fixed now.

[Axxle]

as i was fleshing things out i realized that theory-posting profoundly helps scum and i don't want to explain this argument as i think explaining it helps scum too. i recognize that this is a frustrating position to take, sorry. i feel very strongly about it.

I don't understand a word. And how can you have a theory already? And why are we screwed?
And is this normal that it is so quiet here? Are all celebrating election parties? yuma hasn't even posted yet...

sorry, more mafia slang. by "theory" i mean "abstract discussion about the game set-up, like, what should the so-and-so special role do and what choices do we expect so-and-so to make." I think that discussion is very dangerous and should not be engaged in.

not "theory" in the sense of "i have a theory about who the mafia is." if i have a theory about who the mafia is, i will definitely let you know!!

I have a theory on what your theory is and I believe I have come to the same conclusion.

[Axxle]

I have a theory on what your theory is and I believe I have come to the same conclusion.

^ Good luck parsing that, Qvist. 

[Axxle]

Post count time:
6. Axxle: 2

Glad I decided to triple post one-liners instead of making one big post after catching up.

[Captain_Frisk]

Post count time:
6. Axxle: 2

Glad I decided to triple post one-liners instead of making one big post after catching up.

I have considered trying to download the xml and doing a full word count / text analysis.

[ehunt]

should we gang up on themunch or ashersky for lurking?

[TheMunch]

should we gang up on themunch or ashersky for lurking?

Probably.  I've totally been lurking, although too be fair when I said things no one commented so I just slunk (past test of to slink? slinked? slink-did? slunked?) back into the woodwork.  I have been desperately trying to figure out what ehunt was talking about when he said he didn't want to share his theories.  I'm just rather new and feel inexperienced on the matter.  That being said, if he came to a conclusion that is very anti-town, I neither want him to explain it, or me stream of consciousness it into this thread only to see it get parsed in the wrong hands if I happen to figure it out but dont realize it.  Dont worry; I'll give a cert nod if I figure it out .

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: eHunt

[Axxle]

I posted to this effect in the V/LA thread, and I sent this to Insomniac around 1:00 am this morning, but now that this thread is officially launched I'll post it here:

" By the way, HUGE FoS @ You for really kicking this off on Election Day. I'm going to be booked solid for the next 24+ hours, so if people start to lurker lynch me, I'll blame you.

Seriously though, expect, like, absolutely nothing from me for the next day or two. Between work and then crashing afterward, I'll be down hard. I report in 3 hours, and don't expect to wrap up until around 3:00 am (Eastern) on Wednesday. After that will follow hours of collapse, post-election day coverage, more collapsing, and traveling home. I won't be coherent until Thursday most likely."

Vote: Gazria for trying to defend during RVS.  This vote is not RVS.

Vote: Captain_Frisk for voting someone for being VLA.

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle - he wasn't VLA enough to stay away and not post.

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle: who would you have killed last night IYWS?

[Axxle]

Probably Galzria.  He's a scary guy.

[Axxle]

Axxle - he wasn't VLA enough to stay away and not post.

Looking back that was only a half hour difference.  It is a bit suspicious.  Willing to give both of you the benefit of the doubt though.

Unvote

[Axxle]

Vote: Eevee for espousing the lynch all newbies mantra of the Late Robz888.  We saw how that worked out.  Double points for referencing it and acting like that's not what he's doing.

Vote: Munch for reading the freaking flavour when this is not that type of game.  Also, if someone can killmod, instead of modkill, that's OP for either side.

Vote: Qvist, standard OMGUS.

Vote: joth for fake indignation at the Night Start.

Vote: Frisk for killing Robz, because Frisk didn't want to die again so soon, and for immediately deflecting attention to Galz, when he knows he's always obvscum and Robz can sniff it out!

Vote: Ashersky

Why is Captain Frisk the best place to put your vote out of all those options? Why is this your only post? Why did you feel the need to hide your vote in a strange multivote like this?

[Eevee]

ehunt is the guy i want to lynch the least today.

[Axxle]

Vote: eHunt

Why eHunt?

[Captain_Frisk]

Gut feel. Did you see how I obtained obv town status in a few games recently?

[Qvist]

I have a theory on what your theory is and I believe I have come to the same conclusion.

^ Good luck parsing that, Qvist. 

Thanks. You all know each other so well, aren't you?
I thought a while about ehunt's comment, but I just don't get it.
First you want to say something because we are screwed.
And then you take it back? Doesn't this imply we are screwed even more?
This didn't help at all.
Or I just trying to think too much into it.

CF, here's a revised post count from #82 on (where the game started):
CF: 16
ehunt: 10
Axxle: 10
jotheonah: 7
Eevee: 6
Qvist: 5
TheMunch: 3
ashersky: 1
Grujah: 1
Galzria: 1
yuma: 0

Where's yuma? And ashersky and Grujah?

[TheMunch]

ehunt is the guy i want to lynch the least today.

I support this sentiment.

[Axxle]

Qvist: I think what eHunt is trying to say is that he think he found a strategy for scum that will make them more likely to win.  He realized later that it was dumb to reveal it since if scum didn't think of that strategy, he doesn't want to give it to them.

[Qvist]

yuma is excused, I just read this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3330.msg129477#msg129477
Sorry.

[Eevee]

i want all yje guys voting for ehunt explaining why he is thr best lynch for today.

[yuma]

So I am back... hello all, especially to Qvist who I haven't yet had the opportunity to play with. To whom I say: "Hallo. Willkommen in diesem wunderbaren Spiel, dass wir nennen Mafia. Hoffe es gefällt euch so viel wie wir es tun! Sind Sie mafia? Haben Sie zu töten Robz?" - partially from my 8th grade German class and google translate.

[Grujah]

Sorry for late joining. My meta says it means I'm scum and all. Oh, well. Kinda got distracted with loads of stuff. I'll try to get focused.

So now, what's this thing with ashersky firing 10 votes in 1 post? Anything else interesting happened so far?

[ehunt]

i want all yje guys voting for ehunt explaining why he is thr best lynch for today.

there's only one person on the ehuntwagon (frisk), and dont get me wrong, i hate ehuntwagons more than anyone, but i think frisk just says he has a gut read on me that's bad, which i find uncompelling but not scummy.

it's a little bit suspicious that you and theMunch have leapt to my defense so readily. the only thing i've done today is previewed about making a theory post, then realized as i was making it that it was a bad idea, and stopped making it. i stand by my decision not to post it (and i will strongly consider a policy vote on people talking theory without a good reason) but obviously it would have been better if i hadnt made a preview post about it.

[yuma]

i want all yje guys voting for ehunt explaining why he is thr best lynch for today.

there's only one person on the ehuntwagon (frisk), and dont get me wrong, i hate ehuntwagons more than anyone, but i think frisk just says he has a gut read on me that's bad, which i find uncompelling but not scummy.

it's a little bit suspicious that you and theMunch have leapt to my defense so readily. the only thing i've done today is previewed about making a theory post, then realized as i was making it that it was a bad idea, and stopped making it. i stand by my decision not to post it (and i will strongly consider a policy vote on people talking theory without a good reason) but obviously it would have been better if i hadnt made a preview post about it.

vote: eevee I can't think of reason that would make ehunt a worse lynch than anyone else at this point.

[ashersky]

Sorry all, election and work have kept me.  Are we out of  RVS fully?  What was with that eHunt vote, anyway?

I haven't seen much in the way of theorizing the Cuzz thing.  Why Cuzz, anyway?  Cuzz killing Robz makes sense, though...they go way back.

[Captain_Frisk]

Wow, everyone is angry about my ehuntwagon.

[ashersky]

Wow, everyone is angry about my ehuntwagon.

Can you explain it a bit more?  Are you still for it?

[TheMunch]

i want all yje guys voting for ehunt explaining why he is thr best lynch for today.

there's only one person on the ehuntwagon (frisk), and dont get me wrong, i hate ehuntwagons more than anyone, but i think frisk just says he has a gut read on me that's bad, which i find uncompelling but not scummy.

it's a little bit suspicious that you and theMunch have leapt to my defense so readily. the only thing i've done today is previewed about making a theory post, then realized as i was making it that it was a bad idea, and stopped making it. i stand by my decision not to post it (and i will strongly consider a policy vote on people talking theory without a good reason) but obviously it would have been better if i hadnt made a preview post about it.

I think that you were honest in saying that you did stumble upon something very pro town.  Thats why I said I was trying to figure out what you were talking about; if I can find the logic that you are hinting at, then that is a huge town read, if I cant than it is more scummy.  I can say I THINK I know what you are hinting at and if I am right it is something that is very anti town to discuss and I would agree with a policy vote on people talking theory about such things.

[yuma]

i want all yje guys voting for ehunt explaining why he is thr best lynch for today.

there's only one person on the ehuntwagon (frisk), and dont get me wrong, i hate ehuntwagons more than anyone, but i think frisk just says he has a gut read on me that's bad, which i find uncompelling but not scummy.

it's a little bit suspicious that you and theMunch have leapt to my defense so readily. the only thing i've done today is previewed about making a theory post, then realized as i was making it that it was a bad idea, and stopped making it. i stand by my decision not to post it (and i will strongly consider a policy vote on people talking theory without a good reason) but obviously it would have been better if i hadnt made a preview post about it.

I think that you were honest in saying that you did stumble upon something very pro town.  Thats why I said I was trying to figure out what you were talking about; if I can find the logic that you are hinting at, then that is a huge town read, if I cant than it is more scummy.  I can say I THINK I know what you are hinting at and if I am right it is something that is very anti town to discuss and I would agree with a policy vote on people talking theory about such things.

scum has just as large as an incentive to find an optimal play style as town does. and there is no reason for a scum player to publicize it... he can just tell his scummates in the quicktopic. but he could try to gain some town cred by saying that he discovered something but doesn't want to publish it because it could be helpful to scum...

I am not saying that ehunt is scum, but this is no reason to give him town cred. Just because you can find the same logic doesn't mean anything other than both you are ehunt have better analytical minds than the likes of me...

[Captain_Frisk]

I don't think shunt has stumbled upon anything, but he has just made a big public showing and is amassing town cred.

Look a zm3. I was considered strongly town because I fos'd dsell, and then backed out.

I was town, but I made the mental note to try it if I drew scum in the future.

As for theory stuff, Mafia has upper hand now, so sk wants town prs to work.  To avoid wifom, sk should be switching the levers randomly.  If he does so, then it doesn't matter what mafia does to levers.

Town cop obviously can't claim, becaus he doesn't know that doctoring works.  Town doc can't claim either.

Town has I control of switches, and those who do won't admit it.  Nothing fancy here.

I still am shocked that galz is alive.

[ehunt]

I don't think shunt has stumbled upon anything, but he has just made a big public showing and is amassing town cred.

Look a zm3. I was considered strongly town because I fos'd dsell, and then backed out.

I was town, but I made the mental note to try it if I drew scum in the future.

As for theory stuff, Mafia has upper hand now, so sk wants town prs to work.  To avoid wifom, sk should be switching the levers randomly.  If he does so, then it doesn't matter what mafia does to levers.

Town cop obviously can't claim, becaus he doesn't know that doctoring works.  Town doc can't claim either.

Town has I control of switches, and those who do won't admit it.  Nothing fancy here.

I still am shocked that galz is alive.

 vote: Captain Frisk as promised. what good did this theory discussion do?

[Captain_Frisk]

Nithing, but it isn't anti town

[ehunt]

Nithing, but it isn't anti town

I disagree although I don't want to be the yipping bulldog gatekeeper of theory and I think it's likely that Frisk's attitude here (whether he is town or scum) is just "ehunt can't tell me what to do." Still I don't understand why you'd do something I explicitly warned against when you admit there is no reason for doing it.

So, repeat with clarification, strong request,
if you are going to talk about theory, ask yourself "is this useful, or is it just something to talk about?" If the answer is that it's not useful, don't post it.

[Axxle]

I am sitting at my computer right now.

I am posting on f.DS.

I have a keyboard.

2+2 very often equals 4 when using base 10, unless of course your base 10 isn't my base 10.

This post is only useful at showing how useless posts don't need to be posted.

[Axxle]

I don't think shunt has stumbled upon anything, but he has just made a big public showing and is amassing town cred.

I thought it came across as very honest.

[jotheonah]

Actually Frisk's theory talk did accomplish something. Imagine our SK had no idea what he was doing. Frisk just gave him a tip that will help him meet his wincon and also help town a lot.

After all, we NEED the SK to flip some switches, otherwise the mafia run the PR show.

[ehunt]

Actually Frisk's theory talk did accomplish something. Imagine our SK had no idea what he was doing. Frisk just gave him a tip that will help him meet his wincon and also help town a lot.

After all, we NEED the SK to flip some switches, otherwise the mafia run the PR show.

vote: jotheonah

[jotheonah]

So, repeat with clarification, strong request,
if you are going to talk about theory, ask yourself "is this useful, or is it just something to talk about?" If the answer is that it's not useful, don't post it.

I post why some theory talk is useful

Actually Frisk's theory talk did accomplish something. Imagine our SK had no idea what he was doing. Frisk just gave him a tip that will help him meet his wincon and also help town a lot.

After all, we NEED the SK to flip some switches, otherwise the mafia run the PR show.

Awesome.
vote: jotheonah

[jotheonah]

Dammit, messed up the quoting.

[jotheonah]

The only reason I'm not voting for you, ehunt, is that I had this same interaction with you on another day 1 (which is ongoing and we're both alive, so I shouldn't say more.)

Suffice it to say, it's very possible that attempting to rule the town with an iron fist is something you do as town. But it does drive me up the wall.

[ashersky]

The only reason I'm not voting for you, ehunt, is that I had this same interaction with you on another day 1 (which is ongoing and we're both alive, so I shouldn't say more.)

Suffice it to say, it's very possible that attempting to rule the town with an iron fist is something you do as town. But it does drive me up the wall.

It's absolutely something he does as town, which means he would do it as mafia to not break character.

[Captain_Frisk]

I absolutely want the sk flipping those switches.  Vote eHunt for not getting that.

[ehunt]

I absolutely want the sk flipping those switches.  Vote eHunt for not getting that.

It would be a huge mistake to argue theory with you and I think you are intentionally goading me into doing so. vote: Captain Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

Sorry ehunt, your reading is off today!

Do you disagree with my assessment that the SK wants as many town PRs on as possible?

[ehunt]

Sorry ehunt, your reading is off today!

Do you disagree with my assessment that the SK wants as many town PRs on as possible?

chicken.

unvote because i am being a little bit ridiculous

but

i strongly want us to not talk about this anymore.

[ehunt]

@jo's earlier post

this is frustrating. being bossy makes me a less likeable person, i recognize, but i also think it's the better strategy in this particular case (as i thought in the case that you are referencing). on the other hand i think the reaction i am getting out of you and frisk is better explained by "jo and frisk don't like being told what to do" than it is explained by "jo and frisk are scum" (although i don't like how frisk is baiting ME to talk about theory). at the same time i really want to silence this discussion as i think this discussion is dead terrible for town. i hoped that policy voting would do that and it has had the opposite effect.  but i recognize that "i am thinking something, i won't tell you what i'm thinking, therefore OMG STOP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING" is an unreasonable thing to expect someone to obey. It seems like maybe Axxle gets what I was getting at before; I want to argue if you think hard about the theory you will agree with me that we don't want to talk about it, I don't think my logic is deluded.

analogy: in MVIII we narrowed down bunches of power roles for the mafia on day one because everyone said "what roles do i think will be in the game?" it seemed harmless at the time but it wasn't. this analogy isn't perfect, but it's what i'm getting at.

clarification: "chicken" in the last post is a mafia joke - it's from another game where it's slang for "yes." i am not calling Frisk a coward ("chicken" is children's slang in america for coward)

[ehunt]

The only reason I'm not voting for you, ehunt, is that I had this same interaction with you on another day 1 (which is ongoing and we're both alive, so I shouldn't say more.)

Suffice it to say, it's very possible that attempting to rule the town with an iron fist is something you do as town. But it does drive me up the wall.

It's absolutely something he does as town, which means he would do it as mafia to not break character.

i was accused of doing this in MXI (ongoing, can't be discussed) but never before, as far as I know. If I were mafia I would absolutely be talking theory right now and talking it hard and encouraging everyone to talk it, which would also be perceived as "not breaking character" and, more importantly, would be extremely helpful to my wincon.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'll stop, but I think you're over-reacting.

Vote: Galzria because he should already be dead if town.

[Qvist]

Sorry ehunt, your reading is off today!

Do you disagree with my assessment that the SK wants as many town PRs on as possible?

chicken.

unvote because i am being a little bit ridiculous

but

i strongly want us to not talk about this anymore.

I really don't get what you all are talking about. So you do really suggest that we all should shut up?
I don't know the game enough, it could really make sense what you are saying and Axxle agrees with you, so fine.
But, what should we do? Keep random voting? I guess, just wait until Mafia makes an error?

So I am back... hello all, especially to Qvist who I haven't yet had the opportunity to play with. To whom I say: "Hallo. Willkommen in diesem wunderbaren Spiel, dass wir nennen Mafia. Hoffe es gefällt euch so viel wie wir es tun! Sind Sie mafia? Haben Sie zu töten Robz?" - partially from my 8th grade German class and google translate.

Wow, Google Translate is horrible. I know it, but I'm again and again surprised by it. But, no I haven't killed Robz, have you?
Vote: yuma for hiding his accusation in German.

[Eevee]

Day1 of any mafia game tends to be pretty slow. ehunt wants to banish all theory talk regarding the power role switches because he feels it would help mafia more than town.

[Axxle]

Actually Frisk's theory talk did accomplish something. Imagine our SK had no idea what he was doing. Frisk just gave him a tip that will help him meet his wincon and also help town a lot.

After all, we NEED the SK to flip some switches, otherwise the mafia run the PR show.

That's not the point.  The point is that Frisk himself didn't think it was useful.

[Axxle]

what good did this theory discussion do?

Nithing, but it isn't anti town

Actually Frisk's theory talk did accomplish something. Imagine our SK had no idea what he was doing. Frisk just gave him a tip that will help him meet his wincon and also help town a lot.

After all, we NEED the SK to flip some switches, otherwise the mafia run the PR show.

I absolutely want the sk flipping those switches. Vote eHunt for not getting that.

Frisk either doesn't explain what he's trying to do, or genuinely thinks his post was worthless and latches on to Joth's reasoning.

Either way it's INCREDIBLY scummy to vote for eHunt for not getting something you don't explain when you're asked. (or fake vote, or call for voting, or something. I can't quite get what he's doing here with the non bolded vote)

Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle - i was already voting ehunt.

[TheMunch]

I am still comfortable defending ehunt.  Yes it is possible that he could post something saying he found something anti-town just to gain town cred.  However, he comes off as very genuine to me and his continued dedication to keeping everyone quiet reinforces that assessment.  If he was just scum trying to gain town cred, he would still have a lot to gain by allowing the discussion to actually happen once it starts.  With town having 0 control over the switch WIFOM, there is no point in determining what is "best for town" as it can only help scum.

vote: captain_frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

Here comes the wagon!

[jotheonah]

I will abide by ehunt's ban on theory talk for the moment, because I think this is an unproductive town on town fight, at least as far as ehunt and I are concerned.  I could be wrong of course.

[Captain_Frisk]

Galzria - you're back -

When you're here - could you weigh in on the eHunt vs. Captain_Frisk debate of 2012?

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 1-3

Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Captain_Frisk (3) - Ashersky, Axxle, TheMunch
Eevee (1) - yuma
Galzria (1) - Captain_Frisk
yuma (1) - Qvist


Not Voting (4) - jotheonah, Grujah, Galzria, eHunt

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

[Captain_Frisk]

I would also be very curious to hear from Mr. Eevee on this subject.

[ashersky]

With town having 0 control over the switch WIFOM, there is no point in determining what is "best for town" as it can only help scum.

Completely agree with this statement, which reads very town to me. 

I would note also that I originally voted Frisk for the deflect to Galz, which clearly didn't work, but seems like a scum play to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

With town having 0 control over the switch WIFOM, there is no point in determining what is "best for town" as it can only help scum.

Completely agree with this statement, which reads very town to me. 

I would note also that I originally voted Frisk for the deflect to Galz, which clearly didn't work, but seems like a scum play to me.

What deflect to Galz?

[Eevee]

I would also be very curious to hear from Mr. Eevee on this subject.

ehunt read very genuine to me on a gut level. i dont know. could be town on town, nothing either of you did looks particularly scummy to me. the whole issue seems pretty much fluff to me in that i dont see anything that would help us determine any alignments there.

[Galzria]

Galzria - you're back -

When you're here - could you weigh in on the eHunt vs. Captain_Frisk debate of 2012?

Going to grab a late lunch (Just woke up, still groggy from the last three days), then sitting down to officially start reading.

[Galzria]

Caught up!

First, Frisk's vote on me for "defending my lurking":

Bull****.

Second, Frisk's vote on me for "Not dying":

Actually, I don't have a good answer for you. Ask scum. I would suspect it has to do with another ongoing game that I can't talk about though. I'm in a bit of a lull since being wiped out of M-XI.

Third, Frisk's accusation that I would've killed Robz:

Holy smokes are you tunneling Frisk. But this is ridiculous. I'm the person who, in M-II, made the call to kill Bozzball, a serial lurker who was quite honestly not even playing at that point. Why? Because as scum I'm MUCH better at applying WIFOM to "Scum Galz would've killed the strong players". Basically, if I were scum, I would be focused on the weak, quiet players, while keeping the strong talkative ones alive so that I could blend in. My meta says that I post. A lot. Do you really think scum Galz wants a crowd of quiet people around him? I would draw so much effing attention to myself it's ridiculous.

Moving on...:

I absolutely 100% agree with eHunt that we shouldn't be talking theory here. Our PR's are going to do what they can, but what that is exactly is dictated by scum. The last thing we want to do is solve the switch problem for scum. Unfortunately, this thread and this community isn't filled with idiots. Simply saying "There's relevant theory" is enough to make people think, and if they're thinking, they'll figure it out - scum OR town.

My suspicion then is that the damage is done. However, if it's NOT, there's no reason to keep blabbing. Town can't change anything. They've no input and no impact. So there is no optimal town strategy, only optimal scum strategy.

With that all said, I don't find the back and forth between Frisk and eHunt all that scummy. Frisk is a bit strong headed at times (See: Him tunneling me above), and once he gets something in his head he keeps pushing it. Sometimes he's right (See: BMMMMM, where his sixth sense knew I was scum and on which night to track both ftl and myself), but often he's wrong. In this case, I don't think it's a matter of being right OR wrong, it's just him not liking being told what he can or cannot do. And a threat of a policy vote is only going to push Frisk's buttons more.

I *generally* get a townie vibe from Frisk so far, for mainly two reasons. The first is the above discussion. The second is the lack of lurking and stronger involvement. As far back as I can really recall, this has been a definition of Frisk's meta's. While he's capable of lurking as town, I don't KNOW that he's capable of NOT lurking as scum.

eHunt I'm kinda neutral on. I don't give town cred for basically starting the theory talk then trying to back away. That's certainly something somebody from either faction is capable of. I DO get an ever-so-slight scum vibe like he's trying to keep the talk relevant while trying to appear as being against it... But I don't know. That's a weird gut read and nothing substantial.

Joth stands out to me a bit, especially his "I'll respect eHunt's request to not talk about theory" - AFTER having pushed it a little bit, and AFTER seeing the consequences and heat that it's drawn CF. It felt a bit like... "Oh, looks like I should stay out of this" kind of reaction. A little bit forced and disingenuous. Still, early D1, it's not exactly a strong read.

On the flip side, Axxle's (GO UPDATE THE COSMIC THREADS <3) very quick backing of eHunt also stood out in that... I don't know. It just felt like he had some inside information already, knew what eHunt was on about, and felt he could snag some town cred by being all pro-town and backing eHunt's "let's not give scum more information" statement.

I need to reread some other players, but that's all that stuck out to me. I really want to OMGUS vote Frisk, but I honestly get a slight town read, even through his massive tunneling. Plus, you know, he has a wagon that I don't really feel like climbing aboard.

Going to update other threads. Will reread more here later.

[ashersky]

Caught up!

First, Frisk's vote on me for "defending my lurking":

Bull****.

Second, Frisk's vote on me for "Not dying":

Actually, I don't have a good answer for you. Ask scum. I would suspect it has to do with another ongoing game that I can't talk about though. I'm in a bit of a lull since being wiped out of M-XI.

Third, Frisk's accusation that I would've killed Robz:

Holy smokes are you tunneling Frisk. But this is ridiculous. I'm the person who, in M-II, made the call to kill Bozzball, a serial lurker who was quite honestly not even playing at that point. Why? Because as scum I'm MUCH better at applying WIFOM to "Scum Galz would've killed the strong players". Basically, if I were scum, I would be focused on the weak, quiet players, while keeping the strong talkative ones alive so that I could blend in. My meta says that I post. A lot. Do you really think scum Galz wants a crowd of quiet people around him? I would draw so much effing attention to myself it's ridiculous.

This deflection...

[Galzria]

Caught up!

First, Frisk's vote on me for "defending my lurking":

Bull****.

Second, Frisk's vote on me for "Not dying":

Actually, I don't have a good answer for you. Ask scum. I would suspect it has to do with another ongoing game that I can't talk about though. I'm in a bit of a lull since being wiped out of M-XI.

Third, Frisk's accusation that I would've killed Robz:

Holy smokes are you tunneling Frisk. But this is ridiculous. I'm the person who, in M-II, made the call to kill Bozzball, a serial lurker who was quite honestly not even playing at that point. Why? Because as scum I'm MUCH better at applying WIFOM to "Scum Galz would've killed the strong players". Basically, if I were scum, I would be focused on the weak, quiet players, while keeping the strong talkative ones alive so that I could blend in. My meta says that I post. A lot. Do you really think scum Galz wants a crowd of quiet people around him? I would draw so much effing attention to myself it's ridiculous.

This deflection...

Because I should just ignore it instead of resounding...? Riiight.

[Galzria]

Responding*

[Axxle]

Is Frisk scum?

[Axxle]

Is Frisk scum?

Nevermind, missed a paragraph.

[Galzria]

Is Frisk scum?

No clue. But he's got +2 townie points when I compare this Frisk to the Frisk of the last 1001* games.

* - Figurative, not literal.

[TheMunch]

With that all said, I don't find the back and forth between Frisk and eHunt all that scummy. Frisk is a bit strong headed at times (See: Him tunneling me above), and once he gets something in his head he keeps pushing it. Sometimes he's right (See: BMMMMM, where his sixth sense knew I was scum and on which night to track both ftl and myself), but often he's wrong. In this case, I don't think it's a matter of being right OR wrong, it's just him not liking being told what he can or cannot do. And a threat of a policy vote is only going to push Frisk's buttons more.

Unvote.  I still think that talking the theory is a bad idea but this comment really makes me think that Frisk v. ehunt is just town on town.  I am still suspicious of anyone that does want to chat about theory out of the blue, but I could totally see how frisk is reacting to his buttons getting pushed.

[ashersky]

Caught up!

First, Frisk's vote on me for "defending my lurking":

Bull****.

Second, Frisk's vote on me for "Not dying":

Actually, I don't have a good answer for you. Ask scum. I would suspect it has to do with another ongoing game that I can't talk about though. I'm in a bit of a lull since being wiped out of M-XI.

Third, Frisk's accusation that I would've killed Robz:

Holy smokes are you tunneling Frisk. But this is ridiculous. I'm the person who, in M-II, made the call to kill Bozzball, a serial lurker who was quite honestly not even playing at that point. Why? Because as scum I'm MUCH better at applying WIFOM to "Scum Galz would've killed the strong players". Basically, if I were scum, I would be focused on the weak, quiet players, while keeping the strong talkative ones alive so that I could blend in. My meta says that I post. A lot. Do you really think scum Galz wants a crowd of quiet people around him? I would draw so much effing attention to myself it's ridiculous.

This deflection...

Because I should just ignore it instead of resounding...? Riiight.

What does this mean, Galz?  I have no clue what you're saying.

My post that you are responding to was in response to Frisk's question in #190.

[Galzria]

Caught up!

First, Frisk's vote on me for "defending my lurking":

Bull****.

Second, Frisk's vote on me for "Not dying":

Actually, I don't have a good answer for you. Ask scum. I would suspect it has to do with another ongoing game that I can't talk about though. I'm in a bit of a lull since being wiped out of M-XI.

Third, Frisk's accusation that I would've killed Robz:

Holy smokes are you tunneling Frisk. But this is ridiculous. I'm the person who, in M-II, made the call to kill Bozzball, a serial lurker who was quite honestly not even playing at that point. Why? Because as scum I'm MUCH better at applying WIFOM to "Scum Galz would've killed the strong players". Basically, if I were scum, I would be focused on the weak, quiet players, while keeping the strong talkative ones alive so that I could blend in. My meta says that I post. A lot. Do you really think scum Galz wants a crowd of quiet people around him? I would draw so much effing attention to myself it's ridiculous.

This deflection...

Because I should just ignore it instead of resounding...? Riiight.

What does this mean, Galz?  I have no clue what you're saying.

My post that you are responding to was in response to Frisk's question in #190.

I thought you were accusing me of deflecting suspicion, which I found ridiculous since my choices were A) ignore everything Frisk has said, or B) defend myself as best I'm able.

If you're saying that Frisk's vote on me is deflection from himself? I disagree. I mean, it IS, but it's not like he hasn't been voting me since RVS. He's not deflecting to a NEW target, he's just coming back to things he's already said.

[ashersky]

I thought you were accusing me of deflecting suspicion, which I found ridiculous since my choices were A) ignore everything Frisk has said, or B) defend myself as best I'm able.

If you're saying that Frisk's vote on me is deflection from himself? I disagree. I mean, it IS, but it's not like he hasn't been voting me since RVS. He's not deflecting to a NEW target, he's just coming back to things he's already said.

I had accused Frisk of deflecting suspicion toward you purposefully at the beginning of the day.  He came in very recently asking what I was talking about.  I was going to go quote, but then you responded instead.

I think he was trying to get folks' attention on others instead of himself.  I could definitely see him killing Robz, after all.

[yuma]

Sorry ehunt, your reading is off today!

Do you disagree with my assessment that the SK wants as many town PRs on as possible?

chicken.

unvote because i am being a little bit ridiculous

but

i strongly want us to not talk about this anymore.

I really don't get what you all are talking about. So you do really suggest that we all should shut up?
I don't know the game enough, it could really make sense what you are saying and Axxle agrees with you, so fine.
But, what should we do? Keep random voting? I guess, just wait until Mafia makes an error?

So I am back... hello all, especially to Qvist who I haven't yet had the opportunity to play with. To whom I say: "Hallo. Willkommen in diesem wunderbaren Spiel, dass wir nennen Mafia. Hoffe es gefällt euch so viel wie wir es tun! Sind Sie mafia? Haben Sie zu töten Robz?" - partially from my 8th grade German class and google translate.

Wow, Google Translate is horrible. I know it, but I'm again and again surprised by it. But, no I haven't killed Robz, have you?
Vote: yuma for hiding his accusation in German.

I think part of it is that I was trying my hardest to use what German I can remember--obviously not very much--and then trying to use Google translate to fill in the rest.

No I didn't kill Robz. And I can't remember the last time I killed Robz... O yes I do. It was ZM2 but that was a lynch kill.

[yuma]

I thought you were accusing me of deflecting suspicion, which I found ridiculous since my choices were A) ignore everything Frisk has said, or B) defend myself as best I'm able.

If you're saying that Frisk's vote on me is deflection from himself? I disagree. I mean, it IS, but it's not like he hasn't been voting me since RVS. He's not deflecting to a NEW target, he's just coming back to things he's already said.

I had accused Frisk of deflecting suspicion toward you purposefully at the beginning of the day.  He came in very recently asking what I was talking about.  I was going to go quote, but then you responded instead.

I think he was trying to get folks' attention on others instead of himself.  I could definitely see him killing Robz, after all.

I think anyone that has payed any attention to mafia at all knows that 1. Robz is a great player and solid asset to town and 2. gets higher than his fair share of power roles and uses them effectively. To say that anyone is more or less likely to have killed Robz at night 0... makes me want to vote for you

vote: ashersky

[Captain_Frisk]

Pretty defensive galz.  Some of my case is obvRVS.  I have agreed to shut up on theory, and look forward to discussing after.  I truly don't believe at there is optimal mafia strategy here.

[ehunt]

I thought you were accusing me of deflecting suspicion, which I found ridiculous since my choices were A) ignore everything Frisk has said, or B) defend myself as best I'm able.

If you're saying that Frisk's vote on me is deflection from himself? I disagree. I mean, it IS, but it's not like he hasn't been voting me since RVS. He's not deflecting to a NEW target, he's just coming back to things he's already said.

I had accused Frisk of deflecting suspicion toward you purposefully at the beginning of the day.  He came in very recently asking what I was talking about.  I was going to go quote, but then you responded instead.

I think he was trying to get folks' attention on others instead of himself.  I could definitely see him killing Robz, after all.

I think anyone that has payed any attention to mafia at all knows that 1. Robz is a great player and solid asset to town and 2. gets higher than his fair share of power roles and uses them effectively. To say that anyone is more or less likely to have killed Robz at night 0... makes me want to vote for you

vote: ashersky

sidenote: there was something gross in my frosted flakes while I was typing this, so if I'm dead tomorrow that's why (they were Aldi's brand of frosted flakes).

Separately, I completely disagree with Yuma here. It's absolutely the case that some people are more likely to kill Robz than others. And to boot if you are the type to be less likely to kill him there is WIFOM to be gained from killing him. I doubt the speculation is going to lead somewhere, but it's completely worth speculating on.

FWIW I don't think Frisk would have killed Robz, which is the opposite of what ashersky says.

[Grujah]

System crashed. Will take time to get it up running again.

[Captain_Frisk]

I thought you were accusing me of deflecting suspicion, which I found ridiculous since my choices were A) ignore everything Frisk has said, or B) defend myself as best I'm able.

If you're saying that Frisk's vote on me is deflection from himself? I disagree. I mean, it IS, but it's not like he hasn't been voting me since RVS. He's not deflecting to a NEW target, he's just coming back to things he's already said.

I had accused Frisk of deflecting suspicion toward you purposefully at the beginning of the day.  He came in very recently asking what I was talking about.  I was going to go quote, but then you responded instead.

I think he was trying to get folks' attention on others instead of himself.  I could definitely see him killing Robz, after all.

I think anyone that has payed any attention to mafia at all knows that 1. Robz is a great player and solid asset to town and 2. gets higher than his fair share of power roles and uses them effectively. To say that anyone is more or less likely to have killed Robz at night 0... makes me want to vote for you

vote: ashersky

sidenote: there was something gross in my frosted flakes while I was typing this, so if I'm dead tomorrow that's why (they were Aldi's brand of frosted flakes).

Separately, I completely disagree with Yuma here. It's absolutely the case that some people are more likely to kill Robz than others. And to boot if you are the type to be less likely to kill him there is WIFOM to be gained from killing him. I doubt the speculation is going to lead somewhere, but it's completely worth speculating on.

FWIW I don't think Frisk would have killed Robz, which is the opposite of what ashersky says.

I would have killed galz.

[TheMunch]

I would have killed galz.

I too would have killed galz as scum.  That man is a ninja scumhunter.

[jotheonah]

I DEFINITELY would have killed Galz, given recent events and his propensity for always catching me more or less instantly as scum. (Ok, two times doesn't make a pattern, but when I'm scum, Galzria terrifies me.)

[Captain_Frisk]

So the munch, why are you voting me instead of Galz?

[Galzria]

For being RVS Frisk, you sure are pushing this hard. I'm starting to think you are scum deflecting like mad after all with a crap case.

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about whom killed whom, when you killed Robz last night, was it with the plan of coming after me today? "Let's NK one, then claim we would've NK'd the other!" Seriously, back the eff off and stop tunneling so hard.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm open to more compelling cases. 

[TheMunch]

So the munch, why are you voting me instead of Galz?

I'm not voting for you.  I unvoted at the top of this page.  Almost makes me want to put my vote back.  I'm going to guess CF is SK.

[ehunt]

For being RVS Frisk, you sure are pushing this hard. I'm starting to think you are scum deflecting like mad after all with a crap case.

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about whom killed whom, when you killed Robz last night, was it with the plan of coming after me today? "Let's NK one, then claim we would've NK'd the other!" Seriously, back the eff off and stop tunneling so hard.

Translation: "I am annoyed that Frisk, on the basis of nothing, has successfully guessed that I am mafia."

vote: Galzria

[jotheonah]

So the munch, why are you voting me instead of Galz?

I'm not voting for you.  I unvoted at the top of this page.  Almost makes me want to put my vote back.  I'm going to guess CF is SK.

Based on what, exactly?

[jotheonah]

For being RVS Frisk, you sure are pushing this hard. I'm starting to think you are scum deflecting like mad after all with a crap case.

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about whom killed whom, when you killed Robz last night, was it with the plan of coming after me today? "Let's NK one, then claim we would've NK'd the other!" Seriously, back the eff off and stop tunneling so hard.

Translation: "I am annoyed that Frisk, on the basis of nothing, has successfully guessed that I am mafia."

vote: Galzria

This. Vote: Galzria

[Galzria]

For being RVS Frisk, you sure are pushing this hard. I'm starting to think you are scum deflecting like mad after all with a crap case.

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about whom killed whom, when you killed Robz last night, was it with the plan of coming after me today? "Let's NK one, then claim we would've NK'd the other!" Seriously, back the eff off and stop tunneling so hard.

Translation: "I am annoyed that Frisk, on the basis of nothing, has successfully guessed that I am mafia."

vote: Galzria

Translation: "I'm a little sheep who can't think of ANY OTHER reason Galz might be pissed at someone tunneling"

[jotheonah]

Actually, unvote. Pissy Galzria is usually town; friendly Galzria is usually scum.

[ehunt]

Actually, unvote. Pissy Galzria is usually town; friendly Galzria is usually scum.

I've actually never played with with scumGalz. Before this game, I mean.

[jotheonah]

Actually, unvote. Pissy Galzria is usually town; friendly Galzria is usually scum.

I've actually never played with with scumGalz. Before this game, I mean.

He is a silver-tongued devil.

[Captain_Frisk]

Is this our first game with night start?

[Axxle]

BMI had a night start

[Galzria]

Things I find interesting:

2nd post of the game:

Vote: Galzria for killing RobZ.

4th post of the game:

Also, for being alive.

If you were scum, and feared one player in this game - who would it be?

When I respond to these posts (and others), CF follows up with:

Pretty defensive galz.  Some of my case is obvRVS.

Fine and dandy, right?

Except he goes on to make a case on how he would've killed me instead (not buying it), and encourages others to vote for me because I'm "still alive and killed Robz". (See #209 and #212).

Here's what stands out most of all though. Sandwitched between post #2 and #4 of this game was #3:

Vote: Galzria for killing RobZ.

That's compelling! vote: Galzria

Sheeping in the name of RVS eHunt, or looking for an easy lynch?:

For being RVS Frisk, you sure are pushing this hard. I'm starting to think you are scum deflecting like mad after all with a crap case.

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about whom killed whom, when you killed Robz last night, was it with the plan of coming after me today? "Let's NK one, then claim we would've NK'd the other!" Seriously, back the eff off and stop tunneling so hard.

Translation: "I am annoyed that Frisk, on the basis of nothing, has successfully guessed that I am mafia."

vote: Galzria

It's like magic!

Vote: eHunt for being opportunistic scum happy to sheep along all day long.

[ehunt]

Obvscum and livid he's been caught day one.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 1-4

Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Captain_Frisk (2) - Ashersky, Axxle
Galzria (2) - Captain_Frisk, eHunt
Yuma (1) - Qvist
Ashersky (1) - Yuma
eHunt (1) - Galzria


Not Voting (3) - Grujah, TheMunch, Jotheonah

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

[jotheonah]

Galz are you suggesting that ehunt and Frisk are BOTH scum? Or that Frisk is annoying, misguided tunneling town and ehunt is opportunistic scum?

[Galzria]

Galz are you suggesting that ehunt and Frisk are BOTH scum? Or that Frisk is annoying, misguided tunneling town and ehunt is opportunistic scum?

This.

[Galzria]

Err, the second part.

[Galzria]

Obvscum and livid he's been caught day one.

Quite simply, you're talking out your ass, and have NO clue what scum Galz plays like. But fine. Want to screw town over even worse? Go ahead and lynch me.

[jotheonah]

Self-meta arguments = the worst.

[jotheonah]

I just don't think ehunt is scum here. He's tunneling you too hard. He's toast tomorrow, right?

[Galzria]

Self-meta arguments = the worst.

Like I said, then lynch me and see you're wrong once again. It's not exactly rocket science. I've played scum in two games. TWO. Go look them up on the leaderboard. Every other game I've played - every single one - I've been town. Although that hasn't stopped scum from driving lynches on me then, and it hasn't helped town to learn the difference.

But whatever. We already lost our Vig. Why not add me to the pile as well?

[Captain_Frisk]

Things I find interesting:

2nd post of the game:

Vote: Galzria for killing RobZ.

4th post of the game:

Also, for being alive.

If you were scum, and feared one player in this game - who would it be?

When I respond to these posts (and others), CF follows up with:

Pretty defensive galz.  Some of my case is obvRVS.

Fine and dandy, right?

Except he goes on to make a case on how he would've killed me instead (not buying it), and encourages others to vote for me because I'm "still alive and killed Robz". (See #209 and #212).

Neither #209 nor #212 reference you killing RobZ.  As you pointed out, my accusation of you killing RobZ is the 4th post in the game.

Do you really doubt that you'd be my #1 choice for a night kill as scum? 

[Galzria]

Things I find interesting:

2nd post of the game:

Vote: Galzria for killing RobZ.

4th post of the game:

Also, for being alive.

If you were scum, and feared one player in this game - who would it be?

When I respond to these posts (and others), CF follows up with:

Pretty defensive galz.  Some of my case is obvRVS.

Fine and dandy, right?

Except he goes on to make a case on how he would've killed me instead (not buying it), and encourages others to vote for me because I'm "still alive and killed Robz". (See #209 and #212).

Neither #209 nor #212 reference you killing RobZ.  As you pointed out, my accusation of you killing RobZ is the 4th post in the game.

Do you really doubt that you'd be my #1 choice for a night kill as scum?

No, they reference the "still alive" portion of your "RVS vote but I'm pushing it anyway like it's a real thing" case. And yes, anybody who looks at my recent track record* would, I think, much rather me be alive than someone like Robz. Obviously someone out there agrees with me - even if that someone isn't you.

* - Track record in normal games. I've been doing better in RMM or other Role heavy games recently.

[Galzria]

I just don't think ehunt is scum here. He's tunneling you too hard. He's toast tomorrow, right?

Why would he be toast tomorrow?

Both Frisk and eHunt are tunneling hardcore, and I doubt both are town. I think it's far more likely based on eHunt's sheeping and trying to get on wagons early (while not making cases of his own and trying to implement "policy lynches") that he's scum. So unless you're expecting the SK to kill him, I see no reason why he'd die.

[ehunt]

How is Galz flipping out this hard over two votes on him? I really think he's annoyed scum here. Annoyed because he didn't get a chance to start off on a good foot (he was legitimately gone on election day) and now there's a case on him that he can't answer without OMGUSing and swearing. He thinks the case isn't legit and is flipping out like someone losing a Dominion game due to bad luck and trying to reassure everyone he's still a better Dominion player than the opponent, just one with bad luck. He wants to say, "hey, I play well when I'm scum, not badly like this." Pure WIFOM. We know for a fact that you often fake militant emotions in these games.

(That being said, I think the "scum would have killed Galz" argument is overblown. Obviously at least one scumteam not containing Galz opted not to kill Galz. Maybe both did on the theory that the other would've. If I were scum I would have killed Frisk.) Anyway, I don't intend to change my vote. Galz is just totally busted here.

[jotheonah]

I just don't think ehunt is scum here. He's tunneling you too hard. He's toast tomorrow, right?

Why would he be toast tomorrow?

Both Frisk and eHunt are tunneling hardcore, and I doubt both are town. I think it's far more likely based on eHunt's sheeping and trying to get on wagons early (while not making cases of his own and trying to implement "policy lynches") that he's scum. So unless you're expecting the SK to kill him, I see no reason why he'd die.

I mean tomorrow, not in the night. Scum does not want to tunnel on day 1, it sets them up as the default lynch on day 2.

[Galzria]

How is Galz flipping out this hard over two votes on him? I really think he's annoyed scum here. Annoyed because he didn't get a chance to start off on a good foot (he was legitimately gone on election day) and now there's a case on him that he can't answer without OMGUSing and swearing. He thinks the case isn't legit and is flipping out like someone losing a Dominion game due to bad luck and trying to reassure everyone he's still a better Dominion player than the opponent, just one with bad luck. He wants to say, "hey, I play well when I'm scum, not badly like this." Pure WIFOM. We know for a fact that you often fake militant emotions in these games.

(That being said, I think the "scum would have killed Galz" argument is overblown. Obviously at least one scumteam not containing Galz opted not to kill Galz. Maybe both did on the theory that the other would've. If I were scum I would have killed Frisk.) Anyway, I don't intend to change my vote. Galz is just totally busted here.

Name me one game I've had "fake militant emotions" in.

No, I'll wait.

Still waiting.

Oh, that's right, you CAN'T. Why? Because:

Actually, unvote. Pissy Galzria is usually town; friendly Galzria is usually scum.

I've actually never played with with scumGalz. Before this game, I mean.

Every single time I've had "fake militant emotions" I've been... Wait for it... Town! And you would know this because you've only ever seen me as town. Which makes those "fake militant emotions" not all that fake, now doesn't it?

I'm absolutely 100% fine with my lynch as long as promise to lynch eHunt immediately after. He's scum locked into a case he can't back himself out of so his only option is to push ahead full steam.

[ehunt]

How is Galz flipping out this hard over two votes on him? I really think he's annoyed scum here. Annoyed because he didn't get a chance to start off on a good foot (he was legitimately gone on election day) and now there's a case on him that he can't answer without OMGUSing and swearing. He thinks the case isn't legit and is flipping out like someone losing a Dominion game due to bad luck and trying to reassure everyone he's still a better Dominion player than the opponent, just one with bad luck. He wants to say, "hey, I play well when I'm scum, not badly like this." Pure WIFOM. We know for a fact that you often fake militant emotions in these games.

(That being said, I think the "scum would have killed Galz" argument is overblown. Obviously at least one scumteam not containing Galz opted not to kill Galz. Maybe both did on the theory that the other would've. If I were scum I would have killed Frisk.) Anyway, I don't intend to change my vote. Galz is just totally busted here.

Name me one game I've had "fake militant emotions" in.

No, I'll wait.

Still waiting.

Oh, that's right, you CAN'T. Why? Because:

Actually, unvote. Pissy Galzria is usually town; friendly Galzria is usually scum.

I've actually never played with with scumGalz. Before this game, I mean.

Every single time I've had "fake militant emotions" I've been... Wait for it... Town! And you would know this because you've only ever seen me as town. Which makes those "fake militant emotions" not all that fake, now doesn't it?

I'm absolutely 100% fine with my lynch as long as promise to lynch eHunt immediately after. He's scum locked into a case he can't back himself out of so his only option is to push ahead full steam.

I agree to this deal.

[ehunt]

Why are you not self-voting? Could it be that you don't actually want this deal implemented at all and are just using it to gain town cred?

[Galzria]

How is Galz flipping out this hard over two votes on him? I really think he's annoyed scum here. Annoyed because he didn't get a chance to start off on a good foot (he was legitimately gone on election day) and now there's a case on him that he can't answer without OMGUSing and swearing. He thinks the case isn't legit and is flipping out like someone losing a Dominion game due to bad luck and trying to reassure everyone he's still a better Dominion player than the opponent, just one with bad luck. He wants to say, "hey, I play well when I'm scum, not badly like this." Pure WIFOM. We know for a fact that you often fake militant emotions in these games.

(That being said, I think the "scum would have killed Galz" argument is overblown. Obviously at least one scumteam not containing Galz opted not to kill Galz. Maybe both did on the theory that the other would've. If I were scum I would have killed Frisk.) Anyway, I don't intend to change my vote. Galz is just totally busted here.

Name me one game I've had "fake militant emotions" in.

No, I'll wait.

Still waiting.

Oh, that's right, you CAN'T. Why? Because:

Actually, unvote. Pissy Galzria is usually town; friendly Galzria is usually scum.

I've actually never played with with scumGalz. Before this game, I mean.

Every single time I've had "fake militant emotions" I've been... Wait for it... Town! And you would know this because you've only ever seen me as town. Which makes those "fake militant emotions" not all that fake, now doesn't it?

I'm absolutely 100% fine with my lynch as long as promise to lynch eHunt immediately after. He's scum locked into a case he can't back himself out of so his only option is to push ahead full steam.

I agree to this deal.

Vote: Galzria

Let's do this.

[jotheonah]

Galz, I hate to do this. Because I agree with the self-meta argument you're making. But self-meta arguments are inherently weak, because if you are aware enough of your own meta to describe it, you're aware enough of your own meta to change it.

Add to that the defensiveness with few votes (which I have often said is the only scumtell I trust), the unapologetic OMGUS, and the weaksauce "when I flip town, lynch X" argument ... and I think I'm convinced.  I'm back to Vote: Galzria.

[jotheonah]

Oh, let's also add self-voting, which you habitually describe as anti-town. Boo.

[Galzria]

Oh, let's also add self-voting, which you habitually describe as anti-town. Boo.

It's even worse because I'm a PR this time. But town wants to play itself out of the game already, I say let 'em.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 1-5

Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Captain_Frisk (2) - Ashersky, Axxle
Galzria (4) - Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah {L-2}
Yuma (1) - Qvist
Ashersky (1) - Yuma


Not Voting (2) - Grujah, TheMunch

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

[ehunt]

Oh, let's also add self-voting, which you habitually describe as anti-town. Boo.

It's even worse because I'm a PR this time. But town wants to play itself out of the game already, I say let 'em.

Let's get this straight. You are a power role who, with a total of TWO votes on you, decides the best way to use your "role" is to offer a one-for-one lynch-trade with someone whom you suspect is scum, where you explicitly offer yourself to go first.

[ehunt]

Not to mention, you roleclaim at L-2, really L-3 because you are self-voting, a total of three days into the game. No, no, no. Town does not do this.

[Galzria]

Oh, let's also add self-voting, which you habitually describe as anti-town. Boo.

It's even worse because I'm a PR this time. But town wants to play itself out of the game already, I say let 'em.

Let's get this straight. You are a power role who, with a total of TWO votes on you, decides the best way to use your "role" is to offer a one-for-one lynch-trade with someone whom you suspect is scum, where you explicitly offer yourself to go first.

You're scum. 1 PR for 1 Scum is an even trade.

Don't believe me on being a PR? Here's the breadcrumb:

For being RVS Frisk, you sure are pushing this hard. I'm starting to think you are scum deflecting like mad after all with a crap case.

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about whom killed whom, when you killed Robz last night, was it with the plan of coming after me today? "Let's NK one, then claim we would've NK'd the other!" Seriously, back the eff off and stop tunneling so hard.

Translation: "I am annoyed that Frisk, on the basis of nothing, has successfully guessed that I am mafia."

vote: Galzria

Translation: "I'm a little sheep who can't think of ANY OTHER reason Galz might be pissed at someone tunneling"

Although I'm sure you caught that the first time around.

[Galzria]

Not to mention, you roleclaim at L-2, really L-3 because you are self-voting, a total of three days into the game. No, no, no. Town does not do this.

Watch and learn, little man.

[Captain_Frisk]

He has been softclaiming so hard that there is no way scum wouldn't have picked up on it, and I think he's just trying to avoid having to actually claim. 

You can nominate for me for worst player of the year if you want (note - i do have the lowest win rate in regular games), but I'm sticking with it.

[ehunt]

Let's get this straight Galzria: you say you're a town PR. You're so certain (three days into the game) that I'm scum that you're willing to sacrifice this PR and roleclaim and offer one-for-one, all well-known to be terrible town-plays, because it will be a one-for-one trade. What's your devastating case on me, that makes you willing to out yourself as a PR? It appears to be ... that I'm voting for you.

[Galzria]

He has been softclaiming so hard that there is no way scum wouldn't have picked up on it, and I think he's just trying to avoid having to actually claim. 

You can nominate for me for worst player of the year if you want (note - i do have the lowest win rate in regular games), but I'm sticking with it.

This. The other two softclaims:

Obvscum and livid he's been caught day one.

Quite simply, you're talking out your ass, and have NO clue what scum Galz plays like. But fine. Want to screw town over even worse? Go ahead and lynch me.

Self-meta arguments = the worst.

Like I said, then lynch me and see you're wrong once again. It's not exactly rocket science. I've played scum in two games. TWO. Go look them up on the leaderboard. Every other game I've played - every single one - I've been town. Although that hasn't stopped scum from driving lynches on me then, and it hasn't helped town to learn the difference.

But whatever. We already lost our Vig. Why not add me to the pile as well?

I figured by now scum had picked up on it anyway, so coming out with it in full wasn't going to change anything.

[jotheonah]

Also, all a breadcrumb proves is that you planned out your fakeclaim. And a breadcrumb that breadcrumbs a PR in general instead of a specific one? Seriously? That's much better for scum than town!

[Galzria]

Let's get this straight Galzria: you say you're a town PR. You're so certain (three days into the game) that I'm scum that you're willing to sacrifice this PR and roleclaim and offer one-for-one, all well-known to be terrible town-plays, because it will be a one-for-one trade. What's your devastating case on me, that makes you willing to out yourself as a PR? It appears to be ... that I'm voting for you.

What's your devastating case on me, that goes beyond "He's still alive! Derp!"?

Oh, wait, was it the part where I acted like I've acted in every single other game where I was town?

or was it the part where I acted like every single other game where I was scum that you also played?

Oh that's right. I keep forgetting. You have no clue what scum Galz looks like.

FoS at Joth though. Seriously. You've been getting it wrong every game since M-III. But then, why bother changing your ways now?

[Captain_Frisk]

FoS at Joth though. Seriously. You've been getting it wrong every game since M-III. But then, why bother changing your ways now?

That's awfully personal Galz.

[Galzria]

FoS at Joth though. Seriously. You've been getting it wrong every game since M-III. But then, why bother changing your ways now?

That's awfully personal Galz.

Sorry, take out Joth's name and put in "ya'll".

[Galzria]

FoS at Joth though. Seriously. You've been getting it wrong every game since M-III. But then, why bother changing your ways now?

That's awfully personal Galz.

Sorry, take out Joth's name and put in "ya'll".

(Although I still think Joth knows me better than almost anyone else)

[TheMunch]

You can nominate for me for worst player of the year if you want (note - i do have the lowest win rate in regular games), but I'm sticking with it.

Naw CF, I think I am the worst with my 0% win rate (although 1 game is hardly a big enough sample size:P)

Oh, let's also add self-voting, which you habitually describe as anti-town. Boo.

This.

Also, all a breadcrumb proves is that you planned out your fakeclaim. And a breadcrumb that breadcrumbs a PR in general instead of a specific one? Seriously? That's much better for scum than town!

I'm with joth on this.  Vote: Galz.  This is all at best very anti-town behavior, and I know Galz to be better than this.  Plus his case in 225 is just super weak sauce.  And Galz is supposed to be teh Sauce Boss!

That being said I want to reiterate that I am still feeling CF is SK (although I'm sure that is going to get blown out of whack by confirmation bias) but he is really feeling to me to have a similar style to what happened to me in XV.  It explains my town on town feelings from him arguing with ehunt yet his overly defensive attitude towards a lot of suspicion floating around on him.  I'm probably wrong but mark my words...

[Galzria]

Just 1 more!

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 1-5

Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Captain_Frisk (2) - Ashersky, Axxle
Galzria (5) - Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah, TheMunch {L-1}
Yuma (1) - Qvist
Ashersky (1) - Yuma


Not Voting (1) - Grujah

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

[Galzria]

C'mon Mafia, join your buddy eHunt and hammer me, I dare you!

[jotheonah]

FoS at Joth though. Seriously. You've been getting it wrong every game since M-III. But then, why bother changing your ways now?

That's awfully personal Galz.

Sorry, take out Joth's name and put in "ya'll".

(Although I still think Joth knows me better than almost anyone else)

I always think I do! But then you pull some shit like this! Take a deep breath and a step back and tell me how and why your actions on the last two pages can be described as pro-town, EVEN IF YOU'RE TELLING THE TRUTH. I can't think how it is. If you're a town PR, unvote yourself for goodness sake.

[yuma]

no more self voting!

vote: Galzria

[Insomniac]

The town was so in shock, I mean how on earth could Galzria be alive and Robz be dead. Surely that meant he was scum. If the town had their way more blood would be shed before they left this resort. Captain_Frisk, eHunt, jotheonah, TheMunch and yuma all surrounded Galz. It's time to go they said. He pulled a bloody knife out of his pocket. "Here use this guys!" he said.

The town quickly took the knife and stabbed Galz until nothing was left. 3 Buttons fell out of his pocket, they looked like light switches

Galzria the Serial Killer has been lynched.

Night Actions Due By November 11, 1:30pm PST (4:30pm forum time)

Thread Locked

[yuma]

no more self voting!

vote: Galzria

oh... and I think that is hammer... not derphammer, just hammer

[Eevee]

WTF guys!?

[Eevee]

well i hope you are right.

[Captain_Frisk]

THREAD LOCKED

[Insomniac]

THREAD LOCKED

This. Thanks CF

[ashersky]

Obvscum and livid he's been caught day one.

You are?  vote: ehunt.

[Voltgloss]

THREAD.
LOCKED.

[Insomniac]

Appologies for the late unlock. You all deserved it for posting after lock  .


The manor had grown quiet. The town pondered the ramifications, the lights had, it seemed, never come back on ever since they killed Galzria, a quick investigation of the switches revealed that they were "on" but the lights were still off. It seemed none of them were able to flip these switches either Galzria had installed some form of control so that only he could use them. Still the town was worried they had got scum but was it enough? They looked around with their flashlights someone had gone missing in all the commotion. They went to the outdoor pool area where they saw a corpse floating face down in the pool a bullet hole cleanly placed through his chest. Why had they thrown him in the water, water corpses always smelled vile. They flipped the corpse over wondering who had gone missing.

eHunt the Vanilla Townie has been found dead

Thread Unlocked Day 2 Start

[Qvist]

Sorry, I couldn't post the last hours before everyone hammered Galzria.
I wouldn't have thought that he's the Serial Killer. And that he died is pretty bad for us.
Mafia has now full control over the switches.

And now they killed eHunt. Like most have thought he was town.
We really have to find one of Mafia today to get one PR back or we're in a pretty bad shape.

So, why eHunt? I'm still not sure what he meant / was trying to say, but let's see who voted for him.
Captain_Frisk was the first who voted for him and they both had a ongoing controversion.
Galzria also voted for him after eHunt voted for Galzria, but he was the SK.
And after the thread was locked ashersky voted for him. I don't know why he's done that.

CF and ashersky are the obvious candidates for Mafia although it might be a little too obvious. Maybe Mafia is just trying to frame one of them.
I don't know how likely that is.

Let's look at the votes:
Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah, TheMunch and yuma killed Galzria.
Galzria and eHunt are out.
That leaves us with CF, jotheonah, TheMunch and yuma as suspects.

CF appears in both lists. So I start and Vote: Captain_Frisk

[jotheonah]

Umm... bump?

Qvist, I have to say I'm getting a scummy vibe out of that post. We thought Galzria was scum and HE WAS. It is unfortunate that he was the wrong kind of scum. Maybe more unfortunate in this setup than in others. But still, it's not like our reads were wrong.

I guess the question is, how do you analyze a serial killer's wagon? Like a scum wagon or like a town wagon? Qvist seems to want to analyze it like a town wagon, because he was town as far as the mafia knew. But it seems odd to say "Frisk is scummier because he helped us kill scum." Thoughts?

Also, what kind of a serial killer self-votes day 1? Oh wait, I think I did that in M3.

[Eevee]

Oh yeah #1 take from this, we should ALWAYS AND ALWAYS lynch self voters vehemently. At least stop giving them any town credit. It's just annoyinggg.

I guess I'm glad my town read on ehunt was correct, albeit highly useless.

[Captain_Frisk]

I look forward to talking with Galz when this is over.  Was he just tired from the election - because that was some poor play (got defensive about tunneling very very very early), and continued to look super scummy.

I think he could have survived that if he had just shrugged it all off as RVS and not gone on a self voting crazy rampage.

Going to go re-read ehunt to see what he is or is not onto, but my guess is that most scum were off the wagon - hence the "on the wagon" kill.

[Captain_Frisk]

Couple other notes:

#1: With the night start double townie death, we're down to 6 on 3.  We have exactly 1 mislynch.
#2: Our PRs are effectively named townies.

As such we may want to discuss a massclaim to create 2 ICs.  If there are any counter claims, then we know we can focus on them.  I'm not 100% sure on this yet, but we should all think about it.

[jotheonah]

Frisk, our PRs are only named townies until we lynch scum. Then, depending on which switch we get, we might get a PR back. SO I think massclaiming them would be a VERY BAD idea and I'm a little suspicious of you for suggesting it. Especially after your position in the last memorable f.ds mass claim, which was a huge fiasco that cost town the game.

[Captain_Frisk]

My mistake.  I didn't realize that the switches always reset to "On" at the start of night.

[jotheonah]

Where is everybody? This day 2 is proceeding absurdly slowly.

[Captain_Frisk]

How about some post counting:

1. Captain_Frisk - 44
2. jotheonah - 33
4. Eevee - 18
5. Grujah - 8
6. Axxle - 19
8. yuma - 13
10. ashersky - 12
11. QVist - 12
12. TheMunch - 12

What is our timeline for today?

[jotheonah]

Well Grujah is the lurker leader, but to be honest he's only marginally leading in front of a 3-way tie. ashersky, Qvist, TheMunch, get in here! Meantime, Vote: Grujah

[Axxle]

Where is everybody? This day 2 is proceeding absurdly slowly.

Vote: Joth

Threads only been open 12 hours.

You open the day by telling the one other person he's scum for presenting a case.

Your annoyance at the slow pace seems a bit forced. (I did something similar in my first mafiascum game as scum)

[jotheonah]

Lynch All Talkers. Excellent policy. Definitely reinforces good behavior.

And all I said was I got a scummy VIBE from a post that suggested lynching scum was anti-town.

[ashersky]

My mistake.  I didn't realize that the switches always reset to "On" at the start of night.

Vote: Frisk.  The "whoops I didn't know the set-up" excuse never flies for you, as you're a smart, good player.  Also, you were hard on eHunt on D1, so his death is suspicious, although just as much wifom as anything else.  Still, trying to fish up the PRs so early on D2 when they still have roles to play if we're able to lynch mafia?

[Eevee]

Do you really think Frisk intentionally proposed that plan hoping no one would catch that? I'm positive it was a genuine mistake. One that scum or town could have made.

[ashersky]

Do you really think Frisk intentionally proposed that plan hoping no one would catch that? I'm positive it was a genuine mistake. One that scum or town could have made.

He does know we have newbies in this game.  I could see him intentionally trying to take advantage of that, Robz style.  So I'm not positive it's a genuine mistake.  My vote was for emphasis more than expecting to start anything up.  I'd like to see a better response than "whoopsie!" from him.  This is Frisk, after all.

[yuma]

My mistake.  I didn't realize that the switches always reset to "On" at the start of night.

Vote: Frisk.  The "whoops I didn't know the set-up" excuse never flies for you, as you're a smart, good player.  Also, you were hard on eHunt on D1, so his death is suspicious, although just as much wifom as anything else.  Still, trying to fish up the PRs so early on D2 when they still have roles to play if we're able to lynch mafia?

Vote: Frisk both for this faulty logic equalling a vote and for similar faulty logic yesterday...

I thought you were accusing me of deflecting suspicion, which I found ridiculous since my choices were A) ignore everything Frisk has said, or B) defend myself as best I'm able.

If you're saying that Frisk's vote on me is deflection from himself? I disagree. I mean, it IS, but it's not like he hasn't been voting me since RVS. He's not deflecting to a NEW target, he's just coming back to things he's already said.

You seem to be trying to find excuses for voting for someone and pressing a case out of nothing to get on a wagon early.

[yuma]

Sorry, bad quoting above, fixed below

My mistake.  I didn't realize that the switches always reset to "On" at the start of night.

Vote: Frisk.  The "whoops I didn't know the set-up" excuse never flies for you, as you're a smart, good player.  Also, you were hard on eHunt on D1, so his death is suspicious, although just as much wifom as anything else.  Still, trying to fish up the PRs so early on D2 when they still have roles to play if we're able to lynch mafia?

Vote: Frisk both for this faulty logic equalling a vote and for similar faulty logic yesterday...

I thought you were accusing me of deflecting suspicion, which I found ridiculous since my choices were A) ignore everything Frisk has said, or B) defend myself as best I'm able.

If you're saying that Frisk's vote on me is deflection from himself? I disagree. I mean, it IS, but it's not like he hasn't been voting me since RVS. He's not deflecting to a NEW target, he's just coming back to things he's already said.

I had accused Frisk of deflecting suspicion toward you purposefully at the beginning of the day.  He came in very recently asking what I was talking about.  I was going to go quote, but then you responded instead.

I think he was trying to get folks' attention on others instead of himself.  I could definitely see him killing Robz, after all.

I think anyone that has payed any attention to mafia at all knows that 1. Robz is a great player and solid asset to town and 2. gets higher than his fair share of power roles and uses them effectively. To say that anyone is more or less likely to have killed Robz at night 0... makes me want to vote for you

vote: ashersky

You seem to be trying to find excuses for voting for someone and pressing a case out of nothing to get on a wagon early.

[Insomniac]

GRUJAH has replaced out, he has been replaced by Voltgloss. Welcome Voltgloss to the game!

[yuma]

GRUJAH has replaced out, he has been replaced by Voltgloss. Welcome Voltgloss to the game!

Chickencurse: Voltgloss

[Eevee]

Welcome Volt!

[Eevee]

yuma, should that vote be on ashersky?

ashersky, convincing a newbie or two is pretty useless, he'd need to convince EVERYONE. You really think scum-Frisk would think he could convince the whole town of that?

[yuma]

yuma, should that vote be on ashersky?

ashersky, convincing a newbie or two is pretty useless, he'd need to convince EVERYONE. You really think scum-Frisk would think he could convince the whole town of that?

yes, thanks vote: ashersky

[Voltgloss]

Hi folks.  Voltgloss here, swapping in for Grujah.  And I have something to say that I am surprised no one else has yet said.

1.  Galzria claimed "power role" (with no further details) in #246.
2.  yuma hammers in #265, four minutes after TheMunch put Galz at L-1, without Galz having been asked by anyone to actually claim.

Now, I'm not here to defend Serial Killer Galz's play.  It was incredibly erratic, "crazy" play, certainly.  But... but!...

I cannot understand why yuma, if he were town, would have hammered Galz without AT LEAST asking him to claim his power role first.

As I cannot ascribe yuma's behavior to town!yuma, I have to attribute it to scum!yuma.  I think yuma (correctly) guessed that Galz's erratic behavior + generic power role claim = Serial Killer, who could very well have been a mafia-immune Serial Killer, and decided that the benefit to scum for killing the SK early (i.e., complete control over the switches) outweighed the potential detriment of being called out for scummy quickhammering.

Well, I'm here to call yuma out for scummy quickhammering.

Vote: yuma

[Eevee]

To me scum-yuma is meticulous and above all suspicion (right until he fails the quickhammer). The quickhammer doesn't fit that model very well at all.

[Voltgloss]

Eevee, what is your conception of the town-yuma model?

How does it differ from the scum-yuma model?

How does the quickhammer of a claimed PR, without asking that PR to actually claim a role, fit into your conception of the town-yuma model?

[Eevee]

Only recollection I have of town-yuma is getting lynched day 1 in Ozle's game. Which suggests he is more careless when town, which in turn looks suspicious. And quickhammering Galz shows some devil-may-care - attitude in my opinion. So yes, I think it looks more like town-yuma, but I'm obviously not claiming this is bulletproof logic.

[Voltgloss]

yuma got lynched Day 1 in Ozle's game because (1) I, as scum in that game, got a last-minute deadline bandwagon rolling on him, based more on flavor and comparative lurking than anything else; and (2) yuma was Hated, meaning we only needed to hit L-1, making the lynch that much easier.

I would be very interested to see examples of yuma being "careless" or "devil-may-care" in Ozle's game.  Because I don't recall there being any.

[jotheonah]

unvote. Voltgloss will save us from the lurkerverse.

yuma, eagerly awaiting your defense.

[ashersky]

To me scum-yuma is meticulous and above all suspicion (right until he fails the quickhammer). The quickhammer doesn't fit that model very well at all.

Eevee, this is the second time today you've defended a vet player after one of us has called him out for playing differently than normal.  First saying "no way Frisk tries that to lure out PRs" and now "yuma's too smart to quickhammer."  Why aren't you open to any of these discussions?

[Eevee]

To me scum-yuma is meticulous and above all suspicion (right until he fails the quickhammer). The quickhammer doesn't fit that model very well at all.

Eevee, this is the second time today you've defended a vet player after one of us has called him out for playing differently than normal.  First saying "no way Frisk tries that to lure out PRs" and now "yuma's too smart to quickhammer."  Why aren't you open to any of these discussions?

I'm absolutely open to such discussions, which should be evident by the fact that I'm participating in them. I just disagree with your assessments is all. I also think "yuma is too smart to quickhammer" is a slight mischaracterization of what I was saying, it's more like "in my experience scum-yuma is too careful to quickhammer, he just blends in until it's too late". But no, I wouldn't put recognizing that meta and changing it up beyond yuma, dude seems to always be one step ahead. (Oh, I did the same defense thing yesterday; I opposed ehunt's lynch when there was a wagon forming on him. I like to offer my opinions on these things. Was right about ehunt too!)

yuma got lynched Day 1 in Ozle's game because (1) I, as scum in that game, got a last-minute deadline bandwagon rolling on him, based more on flavor and comparative lurking than anything else; and (2) yuma was Hated, meaning we only needed to hit L-1, making the lynch that much easier.

I would be very interested to see examples of yuma being "careless" or "devil-may-care" in Ozle's game.  Because I don't recall there being any.

Well that game was a while back, you probably remember the events better than I do if you were the one orchestrating the lynch. I just remembered him getting lynched day 1, that's usually a result of doing something weird that makes some townies go after them / makes it easy for scum to convince people to vote for them.

[yuma]

Hi folks.  Voltgloss here, swapping in for Grujah.  And I have something to say that I am surprised no one else has yet said.

1.  Galzria claimed "power role" (with no further details) in #246.
2.  yuma hammers in #265, four minutes after TheMunch put Galz at L-1, without Galz having been asked by anyone to actually claim.

Now, I'm not here to defend Serial Killer Galz's play.  It was incredibly erratic, "crazy" play, certainly.  But... but!...

I cannot understand why yuma, if he were town, would have hammered Galz without AT LEAST asking him to claim his power role first.

As I cannot ascribe yuma's behavior to town!yuma, I have to attribute it to scum!yuma.  I think yuma (correctly) guessed that Galz's erratic behavior + generic power role claim = Serial Killer, who could very well have been a mafia-immune Serial Killer, and decided that the benefit to scum for killing the SK early (i.e., complete control over the switches) outweighed the potential detriment of being called out for scummy quickhammering.

Well, I'm here to call yuma out for scummy quickhammering.

Vote: yuma

My only explanation, w/o reading any of the subsequent posts after yours, is to say that I voted immediately after reading Galz's selfvote. I didn't know he had claimed, I didn't know he was at L-1.

That is why I referenced the derphammer in my next post. But I maintain that it wasn't because I would have voted for Galz even if I knew all of the above. I will vote selfvotes.

[jotheonah]

...of claimed power roles?

I understand the sentiment, i really do, but in f.ds history, self-votes have been more often town than scum.

[Voltgloss]

My only explanation, w/o reading any of the subsequent posts after yours, is to say that I voted immediately after reading Galz's selfvote. I didn't know he had claimed, I didn't know he was at L-1.

So it sounds like you are saying:

1)  At the time you voted Galzria - 4:17:39 p.m. forum time, about 25 minutes after Galz's self-vote - you had read Galzria's self-vote but had NOT read any of the 21 posts between that self-vote and your hammer.

2)  66 seconds later, at 4:18:45 p.m. forum time, you had read those intervening 21 posts and realized your vote was the hammer. 

This is not plausible.

Here's what's plausible:  scum!yuma concluded Galz was SK and seized the chance to hammer him before Galz had a chance to withdraw his self-vote.

That is why I referenced the derphammer in my next post. But I maintain that it wasn't because I would have voted for Galz even if I knew all of the above. I will vote selfvotes.

You will vote selfvotes even when doing so is the hammer and the selfvoter has claimed having a power role but has not yet identified said role?

I don't think town!yuma would do that.  scum!yuma would, given sufficient reasons.  I think you thought those reasons existed here.

[yuma]

...of claimed power roles?

I understand the sentiment, i really do, but in f.ds history, self-votes have been more often town than scum.

like i said, I didn't know he was a claimed power role when I voted, but in that case, yes if I knew all the facts going into it I would have voted. I don't know if that would hold true for every situation in which a claimed power role self votes. That would depend on the context and the specific situation that we were in.

[yuma]

My only explanation, w/o reading any of the subsequent posts after yours, is to say that I voted immediately after reading Galz's selfvote. I didn't know he had claimed, I didn't know he was at L-1.

So it sounds like you are saying:

1)  At the time you voted Galzria - 4:17:39 p.m. forum time, about 25 minutes after Galz's self-vote - you had read Galzria's self-vote but had NOT read any of the 21 posts between that self-vote and your hammer.

2)  66 seconds later, at 4:18:45 p.m. forum time, you had read those intervening 21 posts and realized your vote was the hammer. 

This is not plausible.

Here's what's plausible:  scum!yuma concluded Galz was SK and seized the chance to hammer him before Galz had a chance to withdraw his self-vote.

That is why I referenced the derphammer in my next post. But I maintain that it wasn't because I would have voted for Galz even if I knew all of the above. I will vote selfvotes.

You will vote selfvotes even when doing so is the hammer and the selfvoter has claimed having a power role but has not yet identified said role?

I don't think town!yuma would do that.  scum!yuma would, given sufficient reasons.  I think you thought those reasons existed here.

I hadn't read all the posts, I had just skimmed them counting the number of votes... Truth be told I didn't know Galz had claimed a power role until just now, when you voted for me.

[Voltgloss]

I would like to hear everyone else's views on if they think yuma's hammer was the work of scum or the work of town.

[ashersky]

Okay, re-read D1, looked at Frisk specifically and all of eHunt's interactions.

Food for thought:

Frisk is basically only on Galz and eHunt the entire Day.  He opens the game on Galz, says it isn't RVS, and peppers the entire day with "how is Galz still alive unless he is scum."  He does some some pro-town stuff (#108 analysis on using vig shots, #125 post count).  The Frisk - eHunt argument starts at #159, basically, when he votes eHunt for what he says was claiming towncred for something that wasn't that big a deal.  Obviously, in retrospect, this looks worse.  CF ends up back on Galz by #177, comments on his own wagon (up to three votes in #187).  A final eHunt interaction comes in #207 when eHunt disagrees with me and says he does not think scumFrisk kills Robz N0.

EHunt stuff:

Other than Galz and Frisk, eHunt vote for joth once.

I think it's worth noting that Galz and eHunt had the one for one deal in play.  Can't say how it would have gone, but scum taking him out of the picture negated that.  Who does that help, though?

I think overall, my re-read tells me Frisk pushed the Galz lynch for a long, long time, and scumFrisk wouldn't know if he was SK or town, but would know he wasn't mafia.  It also tells me Frisk worked on eHunt during D1, and now eHunt's dead.

Would scumFrisk be obvious like that?  Probably not.  Which is a good wifom reason for him to actually do it.  Blargh.

[jotheonah]

My only explanation, w/o reading any of the subsequent posts after yours, is to say that I voted immediately after reading Galz's selfvote. I didn't know he had claimed, I didn't know he was at L-1.

So it sounds like you are saying:

1)  At the time you voted Galzria - 4:17:39 p.m. forum time, about 25 minutes after Galz's self-vote - you had read Galzria's self-vote but had NOT read any of the 21 posts between that self-vote and your hammer.

2)  66 seconds later, at 4:18:45 p.m. forum time, you had read those intervening 21 posts and realized your vote was the hammer.

This is not plausible.

Here's what's plausible:  scum!yuma concluded Galz was SK and seized the chance to hammer him before Galz had a chance to withdraw his self-vote.

That is why I referenced the derphammer in my next post. But I maintain that it wasn't because I would have voted for Galz even if I knew all of the above. I will vote selfvotes.

You will vote selfvotes even when doing so is the hammer and the selfvoter has claimed having a power role but has not yet identified said role?

I don't think town!yuma would do that.  scum!yuma would, given sufficient reasons.  I think you thought those reasons existed here.

Emphasis mine. This is as good as catching yuma in a lie, for me. I'm happy to sheep Volt here and vote: yuma.

[yuma]

To me scum-yuma is meticulous and above all suspicion (right until he fails the quickhammer). The quickhammer doesn't fit that model very well at all.

I will say that this argument is flawed. In any game I am generally meticulous and above all suspicion. I do make mistakes and errors, but this is really the first time I have done something w/o reading through the entire thread... I voted Galz because I was extremely frustrated by the selfvote and the trend of selfvoting we have been experiencing...

That said, what I think I would have done if I had read through the entire thread, would have been still to vote Galz... Galz at that point was anything but protown. It doesn't excuse my quickhammering, nor am I asking it to.

PPE: Jot, you are completely ignoring my response to that post... If you look you can see that I skimmed the posts for a vote count... that is very easily gone in 66 seconds.

[ashersky]

I would like to hear everyone else's views on if they think yuma's hammer was the work of scum or the work of town.

More likely scum than town.  Good points on yuma's timing, and his claims of not having noticed/read don't resonate.

Vote: Yuma

I do think Frisk is still worth a look.

[yuma]

I would like to hear everyone else's views on if they think yuma's hammer was the work of scum or the work of town.

More likely scum than town.  Good points on yuma's timing, and his claims of not having noticed/read don't resonate.

Vote: Yuma

I do think Frisk is still worth a look.

vote: ashersky abandoning a crappy selfmade wagon to join one that he knows to contain a townie...

[ashersky]

I would like to hear everyone else's views on if they think yuma's hammer was the work of scum or the work of town.

More likely scum than town.  Good points on yuma's timing, and his claims of not having noticed/read don't resonate.

Vote: Yuma

I do think Frisk is still worth a look.

vote: ashersky abandoning a crappy selfmade wagon to join one that he knows to contain a townie...

My sole vote on Frisk constitutes a wagon that I'm abandoning?  At least I've taken the time to build a case, which I actually pressed on D1, as well.  VG took the time to build a case on you.  You blithely lash out instead.

[TheMunch]

Hey guys.  Today IRL has been RIDICULOUS for me (in a not good way... I hate how expensive cars are... they are stupid) so I apologize for not posting.  I would have loved to post last night if it had opened while I was still awake but c'est la vie.

I still have a lot to reread (I've only really made it through the beginning of the day) but I can make a few comments on my emotions pre/during/post night:

-Yay we lynched scum and I was on the wagon!  Thats a first for me! (3 games that aren't even finished is hardly a large sample size but...)
-NO! We lynched SK.  Town is Screwed.
-Nuuuuuu I was wrong about CF.  I was really SK hunting, I just really thought I had stumbled upon him because of how similar I felt he was playing to myself in XI.  I really wanted to be right about that one, at least for a personal victory.  Him not being SK gives me a strong town read on him.
-Thought about Galz being dead some more.  Town is really screwed.
-*reread wagon on Galz* Wow that was really fast.  Yuma hammering looks REALLY REALLY without giving Galz the chance to unvote.  I know its a bad idea to vote self and thats a large part of why I voted for him.  But to take advantage of killing him because his vote is still on him is rather scummy.  Galz was being scummy enough that we almost certainly could have lynched him without his own support.  Now we have one less person on the wagon to analyze.  For shame Yuma.  Will vote Yuma when I am sure I am not hammering.

[yuma]

I would like to hear everyone else's views on if they think yuma's hammer was the work of scum or the work of town.

More likely scum than town.  Good points on yuma's timing, and his claims of not having noticed/read don't resonate.

Vote: Yuma

I do think Frisk is still worth a look.

vote: ashersky abandoning a crappy selfmade wagon to join one that he knows to contain a townie...

My sole vote on Frisk constitutes a wagon that I'm abandoning?  At least I've taken the time to build a case, which I actually pressed on D1, as well.  VG took the time to build a case on you.  You blithely lash out instead.

Semantics... wagon, single vote... whatever... the point is that you built a flawed case today and yesterday. You were pushing a lynch that had no substance. Sure Volt built a case, it has some merit. I am not blaming him for that. But I am saying that you are leaving your poorly built case on Frisk to join a relatively well build one on me... and voting for you.

[yuma]

For shame Yuma.  Will vote Yuma when I am sure I am not hammering.

I have no shame.

[TheMunch]

For shame Yuma.  Will vote Yuma when I am sure I am not hammering.

I have no shame.

Good.  Vote: Yuma

Ps an updated votecount would be good.

[yuma]

For shame Yuma.  Will vote Yuma when I am sure I am not hammering.

I have no shame.

Good.  Vote: Yuma

Ps an updated votecount would be good.

should be four votes on me by my count (volt, jot, ash, munch)

[ashersky]

Semantics... wagon, single vote... whatever... the point is that you built a flawed case today and yesterday. You were pushing a lynch that had no substance. Sure Volt built a case, it has some merit. I am not blaming him for that. But I am saying that you are leaving your poorly built case on Frisk to join a relatively well build one on me... and voting for you.

Volt crafts better posts, that's his thing.

Yesterday, Frisk deflected attention to Galz right off the bat, and eventually drove the wagon to lynch.  Yesterday, Frisk fought with eHunt over theory and over eHunt "claiming towncred" for something.  Today, both of those people are dead.  Well-crafted or not, a case is there to be made on Frisk.

Your quick hammer is the more compelling case for now, as can be seen by everyone else's reactions.

[yuma]

For shame Yuma.  Will vote Yuma when I am sure I am not hammering.

I have no shame.

Good.  Vote: Yuma

Ps an updated votecount would be good.

should be four votes on me by my count (volt, jot, ash, munch)

aka L-1... for those who were wondering

[Eevee]

OKAY GUYS THIS IS TOO FAST. Do not quickhammer him!

[Eevee]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

I'm not voting, and I'm not threatening to, but in this game, day 1 we lynched scum with a snapwagon?

[Eevee]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

I'm not voting, and I'm not threatening to, but in this game, day 1 we lynched scum with a snapwagon?

Should have said mafia, not scum there obviously. You see why it's different, right?

[Eevee]

I always use scum and mafia interchangeably and this was the one time it actually mattered.

[yuma]

OKAY GUYS THIS IS TOO FAST. Do not quickhammer him!

why would they quickhammer me? I haven't selfvoted...

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

I'm not voting, and I'm not threatening to, but in this game, day 1 we lynched scum with a snapwagon?

Should have said mafia, not scum there obviously. You see why it's different, right?

I do, and I also make the same switch... i was just being a prick, which is consistent with my meta.

[Voltgloss]

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the case against yuma - which means I would ask that NO hammer be dropped until EVERYONE has offered their thoughts.  This includes people who haven't posted yet since I made the case (I think Axxle and Qvist?) and also people who have posted but I don't think have yet weighed in on the topic (CF).

Don't misconstrue this as my lacking faith in my case.  Rather, I want to make sure everyone is on the record about it.  I don't want scum to be able to avoid committing themselves.

[Eevee]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

I'm not voting, and I'm not threatening to, but in this game, day 1 we lynched scum with a snapwagon?

Should have said mafia, not scum there obviously. You see why it's different, right?

I do, and I also make the same switch... i was just being a prick, which is consistent with my meta.

You do like to pick on me though.

@Volt
That is a very very good idea.

[yuma]

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the case against yuma - which means I would ask that NO hammer be dropped until EVERYONE has offered their thoughts.  This includes people who haven't posted yet since I made the case (I think Axxle and Qvist?) and also people who have posted but I don't think have yet weighed in on the topic (CF).

Don't misconstrue this as my lacking faith in my case.  Rather, I want to make sure everyone is on the record about it.  I don't want scum to be able to avoid committing themselves.

You do realize that if I was scum, now would be a perfect opportunity for me to selfvote and prevent other players from voicing themselves... I have self voted myself twice as scum before...

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm wrestling with the yuma situation.  When the hammer fell on Galz, I was away from my keyboard, but I was feeling really good about my case on galz.  There were several things that were wrong with his play, and it just didn't seem to fit him.  For sure he wouldn't be that way as a PR, and as scum I expect more.  I started to think that he might be the SK (a frustrating role at times because you know its damn near impossible to win), and lo and behold I was right.

If scum came to the same conclusion, then hammering him makes sense - it gets rid of their #1 threat, and we've seen time and time again someone gets up to L-1, and after the wagon subsides, the pressure never really comes back.

However, it's still an aggressive scum play, something that I would have a tough time doing.

I don't think I want to hammer Yuma this early in the day.  This doesn't mean that I think he's clear.

[Captain_Frisk]

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the case against yuma - which means I would ask that NO hammer be dropped until EVERYONE has offered their thoughts.  This includes people who haven't posted yet since I made the case (I think Axxle and Qvist?) and also people who have posted but I don't think have yet weighed in on the topic (CF).

Don't misconstrue this as my lacking faith in my case.  Rather, I want to make sure everyone is on the record about it.  I don't want scum to be able to avoid committing themselves.

You do realize that if I was scum, now would be a perfect opportunity for me to selfvote and prevent other players from voicing themselves... I have self voted myself twice as scum before...

See day 1 regarding self meta arguments.

[yuma]

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the case against yuma - which means I would ask that NO hammer be dropped until EVERYONE has offered their thoughts.  This includes people who haven't posted yet since I made the case (I think Axxle and Qvist?) and also people who have posted but I don't think have yet weighed in on the topic (CF).

Don't misconstrue this as my lacking faith in my case.  Rather, I want to make sure everyone is on the record about it.  I don't want scum to be able to avoid committing themselves.

You do realize that if I was scum, now would be a perfect opportunity for me to selfvote and prevent other players from voicing themselves... I have self voted myself twice as scum before...

See day 1 regarding self meta arguments.

sure... but when part of this lynch is based on meta arguments...

[Voltgloss]

sure... but when part of this lynch is based on meta arguments...

What part is that, exactly?

[yuma]

sure... but when part of this lynch is based on meta arguments...

What part is that, exactly?

In looking back I see that your case doesn't deal with meta arguments. I was remembering eevee's (defense isn't the right word) concern regarding my meta.

But I think my point is still valid in that now would have been a perfect opportunity to selfvote, but you would expect me to say that wouldn't you?

[Voltgloss]

But I think my point is still valid in that now would have been a perfect opportunity to selfvote, but you would expect me to say that wouldn't you?

If your point is, "if yuma were scum he'd have self-hammered by now," I disagree.  I would not expect you to self-hammer under these circumstances, regardless of your alignment.

[jotheonah]

I don't know how I feel about this situation. At this point, IF yuma is town, scum is scared to hammer because they'll be obvscum tomorrow (or they're all on the wagon).

If yuma is scum though, town players might be scared to hammer for the same reason. Are we learning anything right now, or are we just talking ourselves out of a good lynch?

[Voltgloss]

What I want to learn are Axxle's and Qvist's reactions.

[Voltgloss]

Insom, what is our Day 2 lynch deadline?

[ashersky]

Unvote to allow time for input, and to take away scum's ability to quickhammer.

[yuma]

What I want to learn are Axxle's and Qvist's reactions.

will anything they have to say alter your opinion? Or do you just want them to put their feelings down. Because really this is kinda ridiculous. I am town. Anything they have to say in my favor will just be ignored... regardless of their alignment. If they are town and express hesitation, good on them. If they are mafia and express hesitation then they earn towncred when I flip...

So unless you actually value their opinion and might change your after hearing their analysis... what is the point?

[Eevee]

It's Voltgloss. He tends to have a point.

[yuma]

It's Voltgloss. He tends to have a point.

this is true, but I don't see it necessarily... and that isn't to say that I am anti-discussion. I am very prodiscussion. But it appears that he isn't interested in what others have to say for discussion sake. He appears to have already made up his mind regardless of what the others say.

[yuma]

well I am off to bed and won't be back on til late afternoon tomorrow. Hope I am still alive by then. At least listen to Qvist and Axxle... Volt and others have had so little discussion about anything else but me today.

[Insomniac]

The deadline is November 26

[Qvist]

The timezone difference seems like a huge problem with Mafia.
Anyway, I read quickly over the last posts and I'm not sure about yuma. I have the feeling that he might be town. I can't really explain it.
I stick to voting for CF for now. I re-read all more slowly now and then I post again.

[Qvist]

Ok, I agree that yuma looks suspicious, but his explanation and excuse that he made an error reads really honest and townish.
My #1 pick is still Captain_Frisk with his irrational play pushing against eHunt and later initiating the Galzria kill.
I mean, yes, he was right that Galzria isn't town. But if you read back it started with a Random Vote. And as Mafia he couldn't knew that Galzria is SK neither.
So, the manner he's playing seems really scummy to me. Like "Let's vote for X and everybody who doesn't vote for X is suspicious".

[Qvist]

And can we have a Vote Count?

I also like to hear from Axxle.
And Eevee hasn't voted yet right? I also like to hear from you. So, if you believe that yuma is town, who looks supicious to you?

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, I agree that yuma looks suspicious, but his explanation and excuse that he made an error reads really honest and townish.
My #1 pick is still Captain_Frisk with his irrational play pushing against eHunt and later initiating the Galzria kill.
I mean, yes, he was right that Galzria isn't town. But if you read back it started with a Random Vote. And as Mafia he couldn't knew that Galzria is SK neither.
So, the manner he's playing seems really scummy to me. Like "Let's vote for X and everybody who doesn't vote for X is suspicious".

Qvist - when did I suggest that people who weren't voting galz were suspicious. 

[Qvist]

I said "Like", so you didn't say it explicitly, but in the way you were posting overconfidently although it was obvious that it was a Random Vote at the same time.
That doesn't fit together. But you demanded some quotes. You get them.

I still am shocked that galz is alive.

Why are you shocked? That's a pretty strong word.

Vote: Galzria because he should already be dead if town.

Here's the IMO Random Vote with strong confidence on the other hand.

So the munch, why are you voting me instead of Galz?

Read: How dare you vote for me instead of the more obvious Galz?

And you did that not only with Galzria, you did that with eHunt too. That's the most prominent example:

I absolutely want the sk flipping those switches.  Vote eHunt for not getting that.

Overconfidence and we know that eHunt was town.

[Eevee]

I'm sorry, I don't have very good suspects. Wouldn't put it past Grujah to replace out of a mafia role if he is busy, Volt's super strong pushing feels sort of weird to me. On a gut level, Qvist and joth have felt off but my gut is terrible. Maybe I'll commence a reread to stop being useless.

[Captain_Frisk]

I would have killed galz.

I too would have killed galz as scum.  That man is a ninja scumhunter.

You took my the Munch quote out of context.

[Qvist]

I can't see what or how this changes anything.
TheMunch said he would have voted for him as scum, implying he's no scum and therefore not voting for him.
And still you ask why he voted for you!?

Also:

You can nominate for me for worst player of the year if you want (note - i do have the lowest win rate in regular games), but I'm sticking with it.

Read: I'm normally no good player, but this time I'm really confident.
Yeah, you were right with Galzria. But I just don't like the way you were pushing this. You beg everyone to join you.

I could be wrong and that's just the way you are playing, but it seems very strange to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

My interaction with the munch was regarding the fact that Galzria was still alive.  The Munch agreed with me that if he was scum, Galzria would be a likely night kill target.  This is why I asked him why he isn't voting for Galz

If it is logical for scum to kill Galz on Night 0, and Galz is alive on Day 1, it logically follows that Galz would be scum.

I have a town read on you, because I think this aggressive play against me would be pretty bold as 1st time scum.

This leaves me with 3 scum in the remaining 7 players:

1. Captain_Frisk - Obvtown
2. jotheonah - Surprisingly active for someone who has been lurky in other games recently.
4. Eevee - Latest "I have no reads" post is posting for the sake of posting.
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - Volt has hit the ground running.  I hate replacements!  You can't hold him responsible for previous behavior
6. Axxle - No read - Post MOHR.
8. yuma - Nervous.  Hit L-1 and didn't claim?
10. ashersky - was he just trying to get on qvists case on me early?
11. QVist - townie from my perspective.
12. TheMunch - I'd like to hear more from him

[Eevee]

It wasn't posting for the sake of posting. It was answering Qvist's question.

[Eevee]

And Eevee hasn't voted yet right? I also like to hear from you. So, if you believe that yuma is town, who looks supicious to you?

[jotheonah]

2. jotheonah - Surprisingly active for someone who has been lurky in other games recently.

This is an IRL thing. I've been lurky because of (#1) new job and (#2) too many games at once.

Now I'm basically in one game (yay getting killed) and settling into the job, so here I am.

[TheMunch]

I can't see what or how this changes anything.
TheMunch said he would have voted for him as scum, implying he's no scum and therefore not voting for him.
And still you ask why he voted for you!?

To be clear, I was saying if I was scum I would have totally killed Galz Night 1.  In MXI he was the first to figure out that I was SK when everyone else just that I was reg mafia.  However I retract his nomination for ninja status after he killed himself Day 1.  I'm not even talking about the self vote but the way he was acting totally got him killed and we would have lynched him even without the self vote; thats just sloppy play and not worthy of ninja status.

[TheMunch]

Also Qvist is striking me as a little pushy.  Sounds like scum that let CF just build up a case against himself day 1 by being all over the place (although it reads as just overly defensive town to me) and is now trying to use that to get an easy lynch day 2.

[TheMunch]

As for the rest of my reads:

Voltgloss and Ashersky get town reads for slowing down the Yuma wagon. 

Eevee gets scum reads for defending Yuma and claiming no reads with the classic "I should do a reread."  I'm not holding my breath. 

I was going to give Joth some town cred for his suggestion that scum is afraid to hammer.  But with only one mislynch, I think scum woud be more than happy to hammer a town.  This leads me to believe even more that Yuma is scum because, with such a precarious situation that town is in, I feel scum is more than happy to actually make a 1-for-1 trade (its that bad for town).  If Yuma is town, they would have hammered, but I dont think we can draw a conclusion from the lack of a hammer on Yuma (who is obvscum imo).  We have Volt and Ashersky to thank for that, and I think it is a good idea to slow down a bit.

Axxle I dont like his lack of talking but my current 3 scum reads are Eevee/Qvist/Yuma so that leaves Axxle out.  He should still talk though.  Bad for town regardless.  I am going to keep my vote on Yuma.

[Eevee]

Voltgloss and Ashersky get town reads for slowing down the Yuma wagon. 

Eevee gets scum reads for defending Yuma and claiming no reads with the classic "I should do a reread."  I'm not holding my breath. 

This I don't quite understand.

[Voltgloss]

Axxle has been on the forums since the yuma case was posted, but hasn't said anything.  He only has 1 post so far into Day 2, in fact.

Where are you, Axxle?

[TheMunch]

Voltgloss and Ashersky get town reads for slowing down the Yuma wagon. 

Eevee gets scum reads for defending Yuma and claiming no reads with the classic "I should do a reread."  I'm not holding my breath. 

This I don't quite understand.

I figured you wouldn't understand the distinction.  Slowing down the wagon is not the same as defending it.  Making sure that everyone has time to say something "before Yuma gets lynched" is different than "I dont understand this lynch guys".

[TheMunch]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

Sorry, I dont want to mischaracterize.  This is what you actually said.  I was paraphrasing (incorrectly I will acknowledge) but I still read this as a defense.  Also you are wrong about snapwagons (trying to derail) since this snapwagon killed scum (galz) day 1.  It just sucks that in this set up that is actually TERRIBLE for town. 

[Qvist]

Also Qvist is striking me as a little pushy.  Sounds like scum that let CF just build up a case against himself day 1 by being all over the place (although it reads as just overly defensive town to me) and is now trying to use that to get an easy lynch day 2.

After a hard time coming into the game, I'm just happy that I have a first read.

Your comments about yuma all make sense on the other hand although I have a town read on him, because it seems that he tells the truth.
So I'm not sure if I should hear to my gut feeling or to all you more experienced players.

And Axxle, please come here with your opinion! It's valuable to us.

And again, please update the Vote Count.

[Qvist]

So I'm not sure if I should hear to my gut feeling or hear to all you more experienced players.

Typo

[Eevee]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

Sorry, I dont want to mischaracterize.  This is what you actually said.  I was paraphrasing (incorrectly I will acknowledge) but I still read this as a defense.  Also you are wrong about snapwagons (trying to derail) since this snapwagon killed scum (galz) day 1.  It just sucks that in this set up that is actually TERRIBLE for town.

Like I immediately clarified to Frisk, scum should be mafia in that sentence. It's obviously VERY different to quickwagon a serial killer, the scum on that wagon weren't killing off their team mate. Here they would be. Serial killer is the same as town for the mafia team (except in this setup mafia obviously wanted to kill him, town didn't.. but no one can really know so it doesn't really matter).

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: eevee

[Qvist]

Vote: eevee

Why? I don't get it.

[TheMunch]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

Sorry, I dont want to mischaracterize.  This is what you actually said.  I was paraphrasing (incorrectly I will acknowledge) but I still read this as a defense.  Also you are wrong about snapwagons (trying to derail) since this snapwagon killed scum (galz) day 1.  It just sucks that in this set up that is actually TERRIBLE for town.

Like I immediately clarified to Frisk, scum should be mafia in that sentence. It's obviously VERY different to quickwagon a serial killer, the scum on that wagon weren't killing off their team mate. Here they would be. Serial killer is the same as town for the mafia team (except in this setup mafia obviously wanted to kill him, town didn't.. but no one can really know so it doesn't really matter).

Sorry. Mea culpa. Didn't realize that's what your semantics argument with CF was all about.  Regardless I will clarify.  You defend Yuma. Your argument is quick wagons in your opinion often don't catch scum so the fact that Yumas wagon was quick makes him less likely to be scum.  However the speed of Yumas wagon is justified by the fact that he was quick to hammer galz who mafia knew was not mafia.  In general I would say quick wagons are bad because we get less info but that doesn't mean Yuma isn't scum.  That's why you get scum points while volt and ash get town points.

[TheMunch]

Vote: eevee

Why? I don't get it.

Qvist jumps to Eevee' defense.

[Eevee]

It is rather meh of Frisk to vote without providing any reasons. He is a slight town read for me though.

[TheMunch]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

Sorry, I dont want to mischaracterize.  This is what you actually said.  I was paraphrasing (incorrectly I will acknowledge) but I still read this as a defense.  Also you are wrong about snapwagons (trying to derail) since this snapwagon killed scum (galz) day 1.  It just sucks that in this set up that is actually TERRIBLE for town.

Like I immediately clarified to Frisk, scum should be mafia in that sentence. It's obviously VERY different to quickwagon a serial killer, the scum on that wagon weren't killing off their team mate. Here they would be. Serial killer is the same as town for the mafia team (except in this setup mafia obviously wanted to kill him, town didn't.. but no one can really know so it doesn't really matter).

Sorry. Mea culpa. Didn't realize that's what your semantics argument with CF was all about.  Regardless I will clarify.  You defend Yuma. Your argument is quick wagons in your opinion often don't catch scum so the fact that Yumas wagon was quick makes him less likely to be scum.  However the speed of Yumas wagon is justified by the fact that he was quick to hammer galz who mafia knew was not mafia.  In general I would say quick wagons are bad because we get less info but that doesn't mean Yuma isn't scum.  That's why you get scum points while volt and ash get town points.

After rereading my post, I think this is worse than I thought for Eevee.  If he is saying that quickwagons are bad for town because they dont catch scum, then this should be a reason for Eevee to get behind the Yuma wagon instead of behind it.  He calls out Yumas wagon for being quick but fails to mentions that Yuma is getting wagoned because he lynched Galz with the quickhammer.

[TheMunch]

After rereading my post, I think this is worse than I thought for Eevee.  If he is saying that quickwagons are bad for town because they dont catch scum, then this should be a reason for Eevee to get behind the Yuma wagon instead of behind it defending yuma.  He calls out Yumas wagon for being quick but fails to mentions that Yuma is getting wagoned because he lynched Galz with the quickhammer.

Fix'd

[Eevee]

I don't understand what you are saying Munch.

I'm saying there is also evidence that points to yuma being town, for example the fact that a wagon formed on him so ridiculously fast. It's also blatantly wrong of you to say I didn't try to slow down the lynch, I recall posting NO ONE QUICKHAMMER YUMA, pretty clearly means I thought (and still think) we need to discuss more and either scum is getting excited to lynch a townie or townies are being too hasty. I don't think scumyuma quickhammering Galzria like Voltgloss explained is that likely and yuma's defense feels that off a townie. Should we make yuma claim though, I don't know.

[Eevee]

It would be so easy for yuma's scumpartners to not say anything to slow down the wagon (instead of joining it with their pitchforks up high). Or do you think almost the entire town just got online at the same time and really were convinced yuma is scum? Usually town is a little less sure about everything than scum, and yuma wouldn't be that easy to lynch if he was scum I think.

[Qvist]

Vote: eevee

Why? I don't get it.

Qvist jumps to Eevee' defense.

Qvist proves his point of CF's random votes.

[TheMunch]

I don't understand what you are saying Munch.

I'm saying there is also evidence that points to yuma being town, for example the fact that a wagon formed on him so ridiculously fast. It's also blatantly wrong of you to say I didn't try to slow down the lynch, I recall posting NO ONE QUICKHAMMER YUMA, pretty clearly means I thought (and still think) we need to discuss more and either scum is getting excited to lynch a townie or townies are being too hasty. I don't think scumyuma quickhammering Galzria like Voltgloss explained is that likely and yuma's defense feels that off a townie. Should we make yuma claim though, I don't know.

I agree that you defending obvscum!yuma is definitely a means to slow down the wagon.  So is saying "no one quickhammer" but you have a different end goal than volt/ash in that you actually want to keep scum!yuma alive (spoiler: its cause hes your partner).

Also "I dont think scumyuma quickhammering..." was a bit confusing to me.  I thought you were saying Volt explained that it is unlikely that scumyuma hammered galz.  He said the opposite (Post #297, it was awesome) and I think his case is much stronger than "yuma's defense feels town".

Lastly, why should he need to claim when I've already found all 3 scum

PPE: @Qvist, there are reasons to vote for eevee.  Its kinda been what I've been talking about.  It doesn't feel like a random vote; maybe Reactionary but def not random.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-1

Captain_Frisk (1) - QVist
Jotheonah (1) - Axxle
Ashersky (1) - yuma
yuma (3) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch
Eevee (1) - Captain_Frisk


Not Voting (2) - Eevee, ashersky

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

[Eevee]

So Munch, what changes if yuma / I'm lynched and we don't flip scum? And who's the third?

[TheMunch]

So Munch, what changes if yuma / I'm lynched and we don't flip scum? And who's the third?

Then you can lynch me and I'll feel ashamed.

[TheMunch]

So Munch, what changes if yuma / I'm lynched and we don't flip scum? And who's the third?

Then you can lynch me and I'll feel ashamed.

The third is Qvist, btw.

[Eevee]

So Munch, what changes if yuma / I'm lynched and we don't flip scum? And who's the third?

Then you can lynch me and I'll feel ashamed.

So let me get this straight.. you claim to already know who all the scum are, and you are willing to bet the whole game on your theory? Yep, that sounds like some solid town play.

[Eevee]

ITT we have TheMunch calling a scum trio day2 and wagering his (supposed) wincon on being right.

I'm not saying you couldn't be doing this as town. I'm saying it's just utterly ridiculous, YOU CANT BE THAT SURE. That's a fact because I know you are wrong about me at least.

[TheMunch]

So Munch, what changes if yuma / I'm lynched and we don't flip scum? And who's the third?

Then you can lynch me and I'll feel ashamed.

So let me get this straight.. you claim to already know who all the scum are, and you are willing to bet the whole game on your theory? Yep, that sounds like some solid town play.

Hadn't thought about that.  If you all lynch me for being wrong about the fact that Yuma/Eevee/Qvist are scum (they are totally scum) then we lose the game so that sucks.  In general I want to be held accountable for my reads though.  Thats all I was trying to convey.

[Eevee]

I guess I should vote for Munch, because unless he is willing to reconsider, his being alive is detrimental to town even if he is town himself, and the only way we can win is if he is scum.

[TheMunch]

I guess I should vote for Munch, because unless he is willing to reconsider, his being alive is detrimental to town even if he is town himself, and the only way we can win is if he is scum.

This is quite possibly the worst thing you've said by far.  I clarified that I was just trying to be held accountable.  However, we are in such bad shape that that is not an option.  You, however, are willing to hang me out to dry before we even know whether or not I am wrong.  We win by lynching scum every time, not by killing what you consider a detrimental player "even if [I am] town" (remember, mislynches are bad so lynching me if I am town is bad, which is what you just said you were willing to do).

[Captain_Frisk]

I guess I should vote for Munch, because unless he is willing to reconsider, his being alive is detrimental to town even if he is town himself, and the only way we can win is if he is scum.

We have exactly 1 mislynch.  This looks like someone making an excuse to use it on a poor townie.  If you want to get rid of erroneous tunneling - then you should go talk to QVist.

[TheMunch]

I think someone not me/CF/Qvist/Eevee needs to say something.  I want to hear about my scum-trio theory from Ash, Volt, AXXLE, Joth.  Yuma can say whatever he wants.

[jotheonah]

Calling a trio right now is crazy. It's not scum-crazy though, it's just normal crazy, probTown.

TheMunch, the main thing we need to do right now is find 1 scum we're sure about, not 3. Who's your top read and why?

[jotheonah]

I guess I should vote for Munch, because unless he is willing to reconsider, his being alive is detrimental to town even if he is town himself, and the only way we can win is if he is scum.

We have exactly 1 mislynch.  This looks like someone making an excuse to use it on a poor townie.  If you want to get rid of erroneous tunneling - then you should go talk to QVist.

Also, this. Eevee is looking pretty bad, but I've misread him before. I don't think he out-scums yuma's Galz hammer, is the thing.

[TheMunch]

Calling a trio right now is crazy. It's not scum-crazy though, it's just normal crazy, probTown.

TheMunch, the main thing we need to do right now is find 1 scum we're sure about, not 3. Who's your top read and why?

The one scum I'm most sure of is Yuma. My case on eevee depends slightly on him being scum buddies with Yuma but his recent posts have been pretty bad. Like saying we should kill me even if I'm town.  Qvist is an afterthought.

[Voltgloss]

On the subject of figuring out the scumtrio (or scumpairs):  I think we'll be in a better position to do so tomorrow, after we have today's lynchflip and tonight's scumkill flip. 

[TheMunch]

On the subject of figuring out the scumtrio (or scumpairs):  I think we'll be in a better position to do so tomorrow, after we have today's lynchflip and tonight's scumkill flip.

Who should we flip?  You still pro-yuma-lynch?

[Voltgloss]

I'm not abandoning my case on yuma, if that's what you're asking.  I want to hear Axxle's reaction.

[Eevee]

I guess I should vote for Munch, because unless he is willing to reconsider, his being alive is detrimental to town even if he is town himself, and the only way we can win is if he is scum.

We have exactly 1 mislynch.  This looks like someone making an excuse to use it on a poor townie.  If you want to get rid of erroneous tunneling - then you should go talk to QVist.

Also, this. Eevee is looking pretty bad, but I've misread him before. I don't think he out-scums yuma's Galz hammer, is the thing.

I know Munch is wrong about me, and I'm suspecting he is wrong about yuma too. I don't have much of an opinion of his alignment (he is indeed quite forward for a scum player but I don't know much anything of how he usually plays). Idk, it's just I think Munch and yuma are pretty much equally likely to be scum, so it's all pretty messed up. If I had to pick a lynch target now, I would go for a silent blend in the background type for sure.

[TheMunch]

Day 2 Post Count

Qvist: 10
Joth:  12
Eevee: 26
CF:    13
Axxle: 1
Ash:   8
Yuma:  20
Volt:  13
Munch: 19

[yuma]

Some thoughts about posts since I last posted....

- TheMunch - At first I was a little irritated with him, and started to develop a scumread on him, but when I actually analyzed what he was saying I changed my mind. Here was my thought process:

Fact:
1st - I am town
2nd - Munch is voting for me
3rd - TheMunch is either mafia or town
4th - TheMunch has basically FOSed Eevee and Qvist for not voting for me, or rather expressing hesitation in voting for me.

If themunch is mafia there is only one possibility: that from his point of view he knows that I am town. If I get lynched, his FOS on Eevee and Qvist go nowhere. In fact it has a high probability of backfiring on him tomorrow.

If themunch is town there are two possibilities from his point of view. 1. I am town - if I get lynched, again his FOS on Qvist and Eevee has the potential to backfire, but he doesn't really care about that. He only cares about lynching scum.  2. I am mafia - he is able to deduce that since I am mafia, those that expressed hesitation toward me have a high probability of being mafia as well.

The only scenario in which it makes sense for theMunch to FOS eevee and qvist so hard is if he is town. All of his later posts seem to show this as well, that he is town (mistaken and overly excited for thinking that he found scum), but still town.

jot you still have not answered me regarding this:

PPE: Jot, you are completely ignoring my response to that post... If you look you can see that I skimmed the posts for a vote count... that is very easily gone in 66 seconds.

your vote was based on "as good as catching me in a lie." I have offered the true explanation of what happened? Do you think I am still lying? Or are you voting me for other reasons? If other reasons, because I can't see you voting for me when I have a good explanation for this supposed lie, why haven't you explained them?

Frisk

8. yuma - Nervous.  Hit L-1 and didn't claim?

Do you want me to claim?

[Eevee]

I think both Munch and yuma are town. Would look for scum in the Joth / Qvist / Axxle area.. oh and ashersky is playing? Him too.

[ashersky]

I think both Munch and yuma are town. Would look for scum in the Joth / Qvist / Axxle area.. oh and ashersky is playing? Him too.

Why me too?  I agree on Munch probably being town.  Yuma / Frisk are my top scum reads.  Where is Axxle???

[Eevee]

I think both Munch and yuma are town. Would look for scum in the Joth / Qvist / Axxle area.. oh and ashersky is playing? Him too.

Why me too?  I agree on Munch probably being town.  Yuma / Frisk are my top scum reads.  Where is Axxle???

Because I literally forgot you were playing until I looked at Munch's post count.

[ashersky]

I think both Munch and yuma are town. Would look for scum in the Joth / Qvist / Axxle area.. oh and ashersky is playing? Him too.

Why me too?  I agree on Munch probably being town.  Yuma / Frisk are my top scum reads.  Where is Axxle???

Because I literally forgot you were playing until I looked at Munch's post count.

You posted 30 minutes after my last post before turning in for the night--when I unvoted yuma.

[yuma]

Where is Axxle???

he was on about 1/2 hour ago... but I don't know if he viewed this thread or not...

I am not too concerned. Sometimes things come up and it is hard to post, and we do have time. The deadline is 13 days away

[Axxle]

I haven't really paid enough attention to this thread.  I'll reread it later tonight.  My home computer is busted so I have to stay late at work to catch up with things.

[Axxle]

My initial thought as of a few pages back is that yuma is town.

[jotheonah]

jot you still have not answered me regarding this:

PPE: Jot, you are completely ignoring my response to that post... If you look you can see that I skimmed the posts for a vote count... that is very easily gone in 66 seconds.

your vote was based on "as good as catching me in a lie." I have offered the true explanation of what happened? Do you think I am still lying? Or are you voting me for other reasons? If other reasons, because I can't see you voting for me when I have a good explanation for this supposed lie, why haven't you explained them?

I don't like that you hammered accidentally. If you're town and you're signing on and voting, and it's not close to a deadline, you should have read the whole thread.

Your explanation is believable, but I don't believe it. Volt's narrative of the whole thing, that you are scum who decided outing a power role/SK was worth the risk of derphammering, is still the most believable narrative to me.

[yuma]

jot you still have not answered me regarding this:

PPE: Jot, you are completely ignoring my response to that post... If you look you can see that I skimmed the posts for a vote count... that is very easily gone in 66 seconds.

your vote was based on "as good as catching me in a lie." I have offered the true explanation of what happened? Do you think I am still lying? Or are you voting me for other reasons? If other reasons, because I can't see you voting for me when I have a good explanation for this supposed lie, why haven't you explained them?

I don't like that you hammered accidentally. If you're town and you're signing on and voting, and it's not close to a deadline, you should have read the whole thread.

Your explanation is believable, but I don't believe it. Volt's narrative of the whole thing, that you are scum who decided outing a power role/SK was worth the risk of derphammering, is still the most believable narrative to me.

sure, I should have reread the entire thread, but galz's selfvote made me mad, mad enough to vote for him. That is the story.

And now I am confused... So you think I was aware of the vote count and aware that my vote would put Galz over the top, but didn't care that others would view it as a derphammer, but you also think I hammered accidentally... which one is it?

[jotheonah]

No, I think it was intentional. When I wrote "I don't like that you hammered accidentally" I meant "I don't like this idea that you hammered accidentally." If it were true it would be bad town play, and I don't think you're a bad town player, so you must be scum.

[Eevee]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

[jotheonah]

I'm not in love with the yuma lynch, and if you have another case to present, by all means. So far, Volt's case on yuma is the only case I've seen that's based on hard evidence. That seems preferable to distrusting wagons just for being wagons or voting based on a gut read you refuse to explain. I am not loving this playstyle from you, Eevee.

[yuma]

No, I think it was intentional. When I wrote "I don't like that you hammered accidentally" I meant "I don't like this idea that you hammered accidentally." If it were true it would be bad town play, and I don't think you're a bad town player, so you must be scum.

Ok... so basically what I am getting from you is this:

Either yuma is 1. mafia who made a "bad" play with a "derphammer," but didn't care because it meant that he was going to lynch a SK/PR and didn't care that it might mean he gets heat the next day

or 2. yuma is town who made a "bad" town play.

And you think that scenario 1 is more likely than scenario 2?

I guess I am ok with this logic. It is wrong, but if this is your train of thought I understand it.

[ashersky]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

Hedge much?

[yuma]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

Hedge much?

that isn't a hedge...

[ashersky]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

Hedge much?

that isn't a hedge...

It isn't a hedge if Eevee knows for sure you are town, I guess.  But "I really hope I'm right about yuma now" is clearly hedging.  Eevee can be like "look at this old post, I was second guessing myself" see?  Hedging.

[Eevee]

Nah, it's just that my "case" against Joth is partially based on yuma being town. So if I'm wrong about yuma, then my joth-vote is pretty much random shooting.

@joth
I call them as I see them. I'd need to do a reread to build a proper case. Which I might one of these days if I get an energy boost. It's nice we are actively talking this long before the deadline though, good job people.

[yuma]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

Hedge much?

that isn't a hedge...

It isn't a hedge if Eevee knows for sure you are town, I guess.  But "I really hope I'm right about yuma now" is clearly hedging.  Eevee can be like "look at this old post, I was second guessing myself" see?  Hedging.

man... no one does that... No one ever goes back and does this. and if they do they get called out about it then. Calling it out now... that just discourages open discussions and putting their thoughts out there.

If eevee is town, he doesn't know whether I am town or not. He had better hope I am town... and I don't fault him for saying so.

[TheMunch]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

Hedge much?

that isn't a hedge...

It isn't a hedge if Eevee knows for sure you are town, I guess.  But "I really hope I'm right about yuma now" is clearly hedging.  Eevee can be like "look at this old post, I was second guessing myself" see?  Hedging.

man... no one does that... No one ever goes back and does this. and if they do they get called out about it then. Calling it out now... that just discourages open discussions and putting their thoughts out there.

If eevee is town, he doesn't know whether I am town or not. He had better hope I am town... and I don't fault him for saying so.

Dont worry, I have never been afraid to put my thoughts out there!

[ashersky]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

Hedge much?

that isn't a hedge...

It isn't a hedge if Eevee knows for sure you are town, I guess.  But "I really hope I'm right about yuma now" is clearly hedging.  Eevee can be like "look at this old post, I was second guessing myself" see?  Hedging.

man... no one does that... No one ever goes back and does this. and if they do they get called out about it then. Calling it out now... that just discourages open discussions and putting their thoughts out there.

If eevee is town, he doesn't know whether I am town or not. He had better hope I am town... and I don't fault him for saying so.

That's a fine belief to have, I guess, but then why do we discuss hedging at all?  This isn't the first time the topic has come up in mafia games on f.ds.

[Captain_Frisk]

Bump?

Can we get a vote count up in here?

[Insomniac]

There was one on PAGE 16 (and since all that has happened is eevee voting)


Vote Count 2-2

Captain_Frisk (1) - QVist
Jotheonah (1) - Axxle, Eevee
Ashersky (1) - yuma
yuma (3) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch
Eevee (1) - Captain_Frisk


Not Voting (1) - ashersky

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

[Voltgloss]

I see you are on, Axxle.  Any further thoughts since your reread last night?

[Captain_Frisk]

There was one on PAGE 16 (and since all that has happened is eevee voting)

I'm very needy.

[Qvist]

I just don't know what to say and I really don't want to change my vote because beside of CF I only got no read or weak reads so far.
So let's post my reads so far:

CF - Mafia
ashersky, eevee, TheMunch - a little bit scummy
Voltgloss, jtotheonah, Axxle - no read
yuma - probably town

So I definitely won't vote for yuma.

[Eevee]

So Qvist, do you think I would be taking such controversial positions regarding town-yuma if I was scum?

[Axxle]

I see you are on, Axxle.  Any further thoughts since your reread last night?

I'll do more reading this afternoon.  I ended up with other obligations last night.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-3

Captain_Frisk (1) - QVist
Jotheonah (1) - Axxle, Eevee
Ashersky (1) - yuma
yuma (3) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch
Eevee (1) - Captain_Frisk


Not Voting (1) - ashersky

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

[TheMunch]

Insom: It would be nice if you also posted days to lynch in your vote count posts.

On topic, nothing anyone has done has changed any of my reads.  I would love a yuma lynch but if an eevee wagon would pick up speed, he has done enough scummy things that are independent of his relationship/defense of yuma that I would be comfortable lynching him too.  I would love both lynches.  Will kill the one that more people are on which right now is Yuma.

[ashersky]

Nothing overnight has changed my reads anywhere. 

Vote: Yuma

That's L-1.

[yuma]

Nothing overnight has changed my reads anywhere. 

Vote: Yuma

That's L-1.

well I guess it is going to come down to C_Frisk then... Qvist, Eevee, Axxle have expressed that they think I am town (correctly). I am not going to vote for myself, obviously. So unless one of the above changes their mind, it will depend on what Frisk thinks.

And you do realize that the discussion that was supposed to happen when you unvoted me hasn't yet happened... I think volt is still wanting to hear more from Axxle. But whatever....

[ashersky]

And you do realize that the discussion that was supposed to happen when you unvoted me hasn't yet happened... I think volt is still wanting to hear more from Axxle. But whatever....

unvote

You are right about this.  I'm tempted to vote Axxle for lurking at this point.  Ugh.  At least scum didn't quickhammer.

[Voltgloss]

Correct.  I want to hear everyone's thoughts on the case against yuma, and everyone has weighed in on the case so far except Axxle.

[yuma]

Correct.  I want to hear everyone's thoughts on the case against yuma, and everyone has weighed in on the case so far except Axxle.

I am also curious to hear, your specifically thoughts on other players beside just me. If you want to wait until after Axxle posts his thoughts on me, that is fine, but if I am to be lynched, I would like to hear it before then... as a last dying wish

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - time to kickstart this mother

The Galzwagon
Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah, TheMunch, Yuma

Off the wagon
QVist, Axxle, Eevee, Voltgloss, ashersky

We have 3 scum - so 4 permutations

A: 3 on the wagon (lynch on the wagon would hit scum with 75%, lynch off the wagon would hit with 0%)
B: 2 on the wagon, 1 off (50%, 20%)
C: 1 on the wagon, 2 off (25%, 40%)
D: 3 off the wagon, (0%, 60%)

My gut says that the night kill of eHunt indicates that more scum were off the wagon than on it, since you're inherently scummier for attempting to lynch non-mafia, so I suspect permutation C or D.

Thus, I'm taking a harder look at:
QVist, Axxle, Eevee, Voltgloss, ashersky

QVist
22 posts thus far.  Day 1 he random voted for a bunch of folks (i think 5), but not eHunt or Galz.  He's been tunnelling on me day 2.  His control of English seems much stronger on day 2.  Townread because I don't see new scum being so free with votes on day 1 and risk pissing people off.

Axxle
23 posts thus far.  #141 reads like picking on ashersky to me, which I consider to be akin to morgrim hunting.
#180, #181 pick on me for good reason (not seeing that ensuring that the SK knew optimal strategy made sense - but I just mistakenly assumed that random flipping was obv. best strategy for SK).  His post count is average, but his content is very weak.  Many of his posts are one liners with no content.  (See 197, 198, or #163 - my favorite).  If it were deadline and I had the hammer, i'd hit it.

Eevee
Now i can talk about how Eevee is my former scum buddy (see RMM3), so I've seen firsthand his scumplay, and I've been in games where he's been town.

#94 - Defending galz from rvs attack
votes joth for no reason - claims it isn't rvs
#142 - defending ehunt despite no pressure (#149)
#268 - posts WTF after thread lock

Did not participate in theory talk on day 1.  When he posts, it was primarily to defend people (aka making friends - one with confirmed townie).  I'm thinking: Scumeevee.

Day 2: #288 - starts buddying me.  #298 - buddies yuma
#324/325 - Telling us to slow down.  0 town points for this, because its obvious protown.  I've done the same thing (as scum)

#354: no suspects... light fos on joth and qvist

#386 - starts fighting with the munch - who thinks he's found a scum trio
#389 - thinks munch is town - wants to lynch him anyway

#402 - says we should look @ joth / qvist / axxle / asher.  Makes sense because he's already cleared half the players (me, yuma, munch, himself)  the only person not mentioned here is voltgloss.

Voltgloss / Grujah
Grujah said nothing meaningful.  Volt has pushed hard for a yuma lynch.  Has been active scumhunting.

Ashersky
#189 accuses me of deflecting to Galz - which is straight up false (since I had already been pushing on Galz since RVS)
#272 - drops a way late vote well past thread lock
#287 - tries to start up my wagon
yuma calls him out on this craziness in #296
#314 - gives up on my wagon - joins yuma's

If I had to pick a scumteam here, it would be eevee + ashersky, probably with a joth kicker - but picking scumteams is stupid.

I'm happy with my vote.  Go reread eevee from the perspective of scum trying not to ruffle feathers and suck up to town.

[ashersky]

Ok - time to kickstart this mother

The Galzwagon
Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah, TheMunch, Yuma

Off the wagon
QVist, Axxle, Eevee, Voltgloss, ashersky

We have 3 scum - so 4 permutations

A: 3 on the wagon (lynch on the wagon would hit scum with 75%, lynch off the wagon would hit with 0%)
B: 2 on the wagon, 1 off (50%, 20%)
C: 1 on the wagon, 2 off (25%, 40%)
D: 3 off the wagon, (0%, 60%)

My gut says that the night kill of eHunt indicates that more scum were off the wagon than on it, since you're inherently scummier for attempting to lynch non-mafia, so I suspect permutation C or D.

Thus, I'm taking a harder look at:
QVist, Axxle, Eevee, Voltgloss, ashersky

QVist
22 posts thus far.  Day 1 he random voted for a bunch of folks (i think 5), but not eHunt or Galz.  He's been tunnelling on me day 2.  His control of English seems much stronger on day 2.  Townread because I don't see new scum being so free with votes on day 1 and risk pissing people off.

Axxle
23 posts thus far.  #141 reads like picking on ashersky to me, which I consider to be akin to morgrim hunting.
#180, #181 pick on me for good reason (not seeing that ensuring that the SK knew optimal strategy made sense - but I just mistakenly assumed that random flipping was obv. best strategy for SK).  His post count is average, but his content is very weak.  Many of his posts are one liners with no content.  (See 197, 198, or #163 - my favorite).  If it were deadline and I had the hammer, i'd hit it.

Eevee
Now i can talk about how Eevee is my former scum buddy (see RMM3), so I've seen firsthand his scumplay, and I've been in games where he's been town.

#94 - Defending galz from rvs attack
votes joth for no reason - claims it isn't rvs
#142 - defending ehunt despite no pressure (#149)
#268 - posts WTF after thread lock

Did not participate in theory talk on day 1.  When he posts, it was primarily to defend people (aka making friends - one with confirmed townie).  I'm thinking: Scumeevee.

Day 2: #288 - starts buddying me.  #298 - buddies yuma
#324/325 - Telling us to slow down.  0 town points for this, because its obvious protown.  I've done the same thing (as scum)

#354: no suspects... light fos on joth and qvist

#386 - starts fighting with the munch - who thinks he's found a scum trio
#389 - thinks munch is town - wants to lynch him anyway

#402 - says we should look @ joth / qvist / axxle / asher.  Makes sense because he's already cleared half the players (me, yuma, munch, himself)  the only person not mentioned here is voltgloss.

Voltgloss / Grujah
Grujah said nothing meaningful.  Volt has pushed hard for a yuma lynch.  Has been active scumhunting.

Ashersky
#189 accuses me of deflecting to Galz - which is straight up false (since I had already been pushing on Galz since RVS)
#272 - drops a way late vote well past thread lock
#287 - tries to start up my wagon
yuma calls him out on this craziness in #296
#314 - gives up on my wagon - joins yuma's

If I had to pick a scumteam here, it would be eevee + ashersky, probably with a joth kicker - but picking scumteams is stupid.

I'm happy with my vote.  Go reread eevee from the perspective of scum trying not to ruffle feathers and suck up to town.

Why are Munch and yuma clear?  Why is joth mafia?

[Axxle]

Reading... reading... lalalalalala...

Side note: I am really really really really really really really really really really really really.... *gasp* really really really really really really really really really really really really surprised I haven't been targeted that much yet.  Are our classic "lynch all lurker" players not in this game?  I don't remember who they are off the top of my head. I'm thinking if we have anyone that do that as town and they aren't doing so now, I think that would be a nice place to find mafia.  They're probably too scared to go for the "easy lynch".

[Captain_Frisk]

ash, did you even read my post?

[ashersky]

ash, did you even read my post?

Yes, you decided option 3 or 4 made the most sense, so at most only 1 scum on the wagon.  So you focused off-wagon, which is fine.  BUT!  You decided of the on-wagon folks, joth was the likely scum.  No reasoning for that, or why it wouldn't be Munch or Yuma.

So yes, I read it, and the answer to my questions weren't there.

[Eevee]

I feel like whatever I say or do is twisted to it pointing at me being mafia. Galzria was talking about this elsewhere, I guess that's how it is after you flip scum the first time.

Frisk, your entire case against me can be explained away with one simple sentence: I'm always like that as town too.

And I certainly don't want to lynch Munch if he is town, I was just pointing out he needs to not be boneheaded and stubborn for town to have a chance in this game.

This is really frustrating, I'm taking comfort in the fact that some of you guys aren't being unfair but rather are mafia and see me as an easy mislynch.

[Captain_Frisk]

Eevee. You are currently at l-4. Do you want to claim?

[Eevee]

Eevee. You are currently at l-4. Do you want to claim?

Lol. Not particularly.Why do you ask?

[Captain_Frisk]

Eevee. You are currently at l-4. Do you want to claim?

Lol. Not particularly.Why do you ask?

Because your acting like everyone thinks you are scum and citing for you m, when it's really just crazy old frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

Citing equals voting.

[Eevee]

Eevee. You are currently at l-4. Do you want to claim?

Lol. Not particularly.Why do you ask?

Because your acting like everyone thinks you are scum and citing for you m, when it's really just crazy old frisk

And Munch and no other cases are being presented. Maybe I'm paranoid but I feel everyone else is silently agreeing with your case, and really it's not a nice feeling to have all the lynch alternatives being ones I really don't like.

[TheMunch]

I feel like whatever I say or do is twisted to it pointing at me being mafia. Galzria was talking about this elsewhere, I guess that's how it is after you flip scum the first time.

Frisk, your entire case against me can be explained away with one simple sentence: I'm always like that as town too.

And I certainly don't want to lynch Munch if he is town, I was just pointing out he needs to not be boneheaded and stubborn for town to have a chance in this game.

This is really frustrating, I'm taking comfort in the fact that some of you guys aren't being unfair but rather are mafia and see me as an easy mislynch.

As I analyze my own cases on all of you, yuma, and Qvist, I cant help but feel they are all CHALK FULL of confirmation bias.  I keep reassuring myself that some of things you've done are actually scummy and I have the right of things.  But confirmation bias is a thing and I am wary of it.  Vote stays on Yuma.

[Eevee]

Munch has said he likes the case against me just as much, but is voting yuma because that lynch is more viable at the moment (paraphrasing).

[TheMunch]

Eevee. You are currently at l-4. Do you want to claim?

Lol. Not particularly.Why do you ask?

Because your acting like everyone thinks you are scum and citing for you m, when it's really just crazy old frisk

And Munch and no other cases are being presented. Maybe I'm paranoid but I feel everyone else is silently agreeing with your case, and really it's not a nice feeling to have all the lynch alternatives being ones I really don't like.

I know the feeling.  See Me vs Ehal in XI.  I def felt like cause Ehal was convince he found mafia in me and he was so vocal about it, with no one else saying anything everyone had to agree with him and think I was mafia too.  I drove me to be overly defensive and in my opinion was most of the reason I got to the point where I was in danger of getting lynched.  Unfortunately I think that this defensiveness and perception of "everyone silently agreeing" is a scum trait.  Or at least a power role, but I'm leaning towards overly defensive paranoia being scummy.

PPE: Eevee has the right of it.  There are a bunch of things that I find scummy on both eevee and Yuma but yeah I'm def putting my vote on which every has the most traction.  As I type this I realize it might be a terrible idea because then if I am wrong about either yuma or eevee then mafia can basically count e as a free vote on whichever is the myslynch... I'm gonna go think about this some more.  Keeping vote on Yuma.

[Captain_Frisk]

Munch - why is there a Ppe?  You are quoting he last post before yours

[TheMunch]

Munch - why is there a Ppe?  You are quoting he last post before yours

448

[Eevee]

Because he thought of the edit before hitting send?


Munch, I think that's a really bad approach also because scum players are generally just harder to lynch. Like really, gathering a lot of votes is a town trait in my opinion. Easy lynches are bad lynches, unless it's like super obvious.

[TheMunch]

Because he thought of the edit before hitting send?


Munch, I think that's a really bad approach also because scum players are generally just harder to lynch. Like really, gathering a lot of votes is a town trait in my opinion. Easy lynches are bad lynches, unless it's like super obvious.

Tthats why I think the Yuma case is solid.  I'm trying not to second guess myself.  But yes, it is precisely the fear of my vote not becoming my own that scares me.  I dont want mafia to be sitting watching me giggling know that I can be manipulated so easily.  WELL I CANT.  I AM A LOOSE CANNON.  Vote: Axxle!!! I mean Vote: Yuma

[jotheonah]

you know, I could see the Eevee lynch too. Especially after getting all defensive at L4. But at this point, the inability of the town to lynch yuma is making him look even scummier. Like Eevee said, scum are hard to lynch.

[Eevee]

you know, I could see the Eevee lynch too. Especially after getting all defensive at L4. But at this point, the inability of the town to lynch yuma is making him look even scummier. Like Eevee said, scum are hard to lynch.

The thing is, yuma lynch looked inevitable at one point. Like it was moving towards that direction really fast. He looked very easy to lynch then, I called people out on it and it slowed down basically. (OK YEAH NOT 100% WHAT HAPPENED BUT YOU KNOW.)

But of course you'd want me gone, fearing I might come after you later.

[yuma]

If I had to pick a scumteam here, it would be eevee + ashersky, probably with a joth kicker - but picking scumteams is stupid.

I'm happy with my vote.  Go reread eevee from the perspective of scum trying not to ruffle feathers and suck up to town.

any reason you are picking eevee over ash or jot, especially ash? Mostly I am asking because the other two players already have votes on them (1 on ash, 2 on jot).

TheMunch you really just seem like a townie who is stuck on believing that I am scum. I think it was said elsewhere--hey you referenced a game, so I can too--, I think in MIX, that it is really easy to just be lead into one of Volt's analysis. He puts them together really well, makes connections that other don't see. But they aren't 100% accurate. In fact Voltgloss only has a 28% correct lynch percentage. Now, I don't expect you to just disbelieve him based off that. But I would ask you to take a look around elsewhere, do some rereads on other players and don't just blindly follow Volt... I have no idea whether Volt is town or scum. He is super hard to read. But take off your blinders for a bit--you dont' have to unvote--just see if there is a better option out there. I think once you do that, you will see that I am not the best lynch option.

[Captain_Frisk]

ash, did you even read my post?

Yes, you decided option 3 or 4 made the most sense, so at most only 1 scum on the wagon.  So you focused off-wagon, which is fine.  BUT!  You decided of the on-wagon folks, joth was the likely scum.  No reasoning for that, or why it wouldn't be Munch or Yuma.

So yes, I read it, and the answer to my questions weren't there.

Joth is a gut feel, based on eevees interaction with him, and what I saw of him as I retread the other 5. 

Obv. Ou won't agree with my read on you, but how do you feel about the case on my #1 scum read-Eevee?

[Voltgloss]

There is a glaring Axxle-shaped hole in this discussion.

[Captain_Frisk]

If I had to pick a scumteam here, it would be eevee + ashersky, probably with a joth kicker - but picking scumteams is stupid.

I'm happy with my vote.  Go reread eevee from the perspective of scum trying not to ruffle feathers and suck up to town.

any reason you are picking eevee over ash or jot, especially ash? Mostly I am asking because the other two players already have votes on them (1 on ash, 2 on jot).

Well, I was already voting Eevee.  I haven't fully reread anyone on the wagon, so I don't have a super strong feeling on joth, and even that was based on Eevee interaction.

Asher is someone I'm never confident in my reads on.

[TheMunch]

If I had to pick a scumteam here, it would be eevee + ashersky, probably with a joth kicker - but picking scumteams is stupid.

I'm happy with my vote.  Go reread eevee from the perspective of scum trying not to ruffle feathers and suck up to town.

any reason you are picking eevee over ash or jot, especially ash? Mostly I am asking because the other two players already have votes on them (1 on ash, 2 on jot).

TheMunch you really just seem like a townie who is stuck on believing that I am scum. I think it was said elsewhere--hey you referenced a game, so I can too--, I think in MIX, that it is really easy to just be lead into one of Volt's analysis. He puts them together really well, makes connections that other don't see. But they aren't 100% accurate. In fact Voltgloss only has a 28% correct lynch percentage. Now, I don't expect you to just disbelieve him based off that. But I would ask you to take a look around elsewhere, do some rereads on other players and don't just blindly follow Volt... I have no idea whether Volt is town or scum. He is super hard to read. But take off your blinders for a bit--you dont' have to unvote--just see if there is a better option out there. I think once you do that, you will see that I am not the best lynch option.

I see what you are saying regarding volts case but I did come to it independently (despite the fact that my vote on you was after his case).  I did, in my post, say that I was posting specifically without having read the thread yet.  That being said I think volt made the case better than me, but I am def not following him blindly.

[Axxle]

Hey guys.  Today IRL has been RIDICULOUS for me (in a not good way... I hate how expensive cars are... they are stupid) so I apologize for not posting.  I would have loved to post last night if it had opened while I was still awake but c'est la vie.

I still have a lot to reread (I've only really made it through the beginning of the day) but I can make a few comments on my emotions pre/during/post night:

-Yay we lynched scum and I was on the wagon!  Thats a first for me! (3 games that aren't even finished is hardly a large sample size but...)
-NO! We lynched SK.  Town is Screwed.
-Nuuuuuu I was wrong about CF.  I was really SK hunting, I just really thought I had stumbled upon him because of how similar I felt he was playing to myself in XI.  I really wanted to be right about that one, at least for a personal victory.  Him not being SK gives me a strong town read on him.
-Thought about Galz being dead some more.  Town is really screwed.
-*reread wagon on Galz* Wow that was really fast.  Yuma hammering looks REALLY REALLY without giving Galz the chance to unvote.  I know its a bad idea to vote self and thats a large part of why I voted for him.  But to take advantage of killing him because his vote is still on him is rather scummy.  Galz was being scummy enough that we almost certainly could have lynched him without his own support.  Now we have one less person on the wagon to analyze.  For shame Yuma.  Will vote Yuma when I am sure I am not hammering.

Don't like this post.  Says a whole lot of nothing.

[Axxle]

I'm feeling very uneasy about this whole lynch to be honest. I do see the case, but when are these snapwagons ever scum?

I'm not voting, and I'm not threatening to, but in this game, day 1 we lynched scum with a snapwagon?

Should have said mafia, not scum there obviously. You see why it's different, right?

I do, and I also make the same switch... i was just being a prick, which is consistent with my meta.

I don't see the point of mentioning meta here.  Eevee isn't calling him scum for that post.  It's way too defensive. 

[Axxle]

I do, and I also make the same switch... i was just being a prick, which is consistent with my meta.

I don't see the point of mentioning meta here.  Eevee isn't calling him scum for that post.  It's way too defensive. 

See day 1 regarding self meta arguments.

lol.

[Axxle]

You can nominate for me for worst player of the year if you want (note - i do have the lowest win rate in regular games), but I'm sticking with it.

Naw CF, I think I am the worst with my 0% win rate (although 1 game is hardly a big enough sample size:P)

Oh, let's also add self-voting, which you habitually describe as anti-town. Boo.

This.

Also, all a breadcrumb proves is that you planned out your fakeclaim. And a breadcrumb that breadcrumbs a PR in general instead of a specific one? Seriously? That's much better for scum than town!

I'm with joth on this.  Vote: Galz.  This is all at best very anti-town behavior, and I know Galz to be better than this.  Plus his case in 225 is just super weak sauce.  And Galz is supposed to be teh Sauce Boss!

That being said I want to reiterate that I am still feeling CF is SK (although I'm sure that is going to get blown out of whack by confirmation bias) but he is really feeling to me to have a similar style to what happened to me in XV.  It explains my town on town feelings from him arguing with ehunt yet his overly defensive attitude towards a lot of suspicion floating around on him.  I'm probably wrong but mark my words...

TheMunch made it Very Easy (TM) to accidentally lynch Galz.  He places his vote in the middle of a paragraph and doesn't announce the L-1.

This is antitown and scummy.

[Axxle]

Voltgloss and Ashersky get town reads for slowing down the Yuma wagon. 

Eevee gets scum reads for defending Yuma and claiming no reads with the classic "I should do a reread."  I'm not holding my breath. 

I really like that TheMunch is making this distinction.  I would think as scum he'd lump them all in together (unless he's partners with Volt and/or Asher).

[Axxle]

So I'm not sure if I should hear to my gut feeling or hear to all you more experienced players.

Typo

It's actually "Listen". They're similar meaning words but in this case you want to use "listen"

[Axxle]

Testing something in the next few posts

[Axxle]

Vote Count 1-5

Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Captain_Frisk (2) - Ashersky, Axxle
Galzria (5) - Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah, TheMunch {L-1}
Yuma (1) - Qvist
Ashersky (1) - Yuma


Not Voting (1) - Grujah

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

[Axxle]

C'mon Mafia, join your buddy eHunt and hammer me, I dare you!

[Axxle]

FoS at Joth though. Seriously. You've been getting it wrong every game since M-III. But then, why bother changing your ways now?

That's awfully personal Galz.

Sorry, take out Joth's name and put in "ya'll".

(Although I still think Joth knows me better than almost anyone else)

I always think I do! But then you pull some shit like this! Take a deep breath and a step back and tell me how and why your actions on the last two pages can be described as pro-town, EVEN IF YOU'RE TELLING THE TRUTH. I can't think how it is. If you're a town PR, unvote yourself for goodness sake.

[Axxle]

I'm not abandoning my case on yuma, if that's what you're asking.  I want to hear Axxle's reaction.

Yeah, it would be probably very easy to miss that there was a votecount when making his post.  Then as soon as he made the post he scrolls up and sees the L-1 votecount and realizes it's a hammer.

[Axxle]

Two minutes after Eevee posts suspicion on ashersky, he writes this:

I think both Munch and yuma are town. Would look for scum in the Joth / Qvist / Axxle area.. oh and ashersky is playing? Him too.

Why me too?  I agree on Munch probably being town.  Yuma / Frisk are my top scum reads.  Where is Axxle???

He hadn't posted for 22 hours before:

Unvote to allow time for input, and to take away scum's ability to quickhammer.

He's a bit jumpy and hasn't made a big presence this game.

[Axxle]

Vote: jotheonah

Not voting is dumb, he has felt off to me from the beginning and really seems to want to make this yuma lynch happen which I don't like. I really hope I'm right about yuma now though.

Hedge much?

that isn't a hedge...

It isn't a hedge if Eevee knows for sure you are town, I guess.  But "I really hope I'm right about yuma now" is clearly hedging.  Eevee can be like "look at this old post, I was second guessing myself" see?  Hedging.

man... no one does that... No one ever goes back and does this. and if they do they get called out about it then. Calling it out now... that just discourages open discussions and putting their thoughts out there.

If eevee is town, he doesn't know whether I am town or not. He had better hope I am town... and I don't fault him for saying so.

That's a fine belief to have, I guess, but then why do we discuss hedging at all?  This isn't the first time the topic has come up in mafia games on f.ds.

Hedging would be voting for someone and saying you're unsure.

If eevee had voted for yuma and said "I hope I'm not wrong about him being scum" that'd be hedging.
But eevee had voted for joth and said he hoped he was right about some other player.

[Axxle]

And you do realize that the discussion that was supposed to happen when you unvoted me hasn't yet happened... I think volt is still wanting to hear more from Axxle. But whatever....

unvote

You are right about this.  I'm tempted to vote Axxle for lurking at this point.  Ugh.  At least scum didn't quickhammer.

Vote: ashersky

[ashersky]

C'mon Mafia, join your buddy eHunt and hammer me, I dare you!

You aren't at L-1, so how is mafia going to hammer you?

Vote Count 1-5

Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Captain_Frisk (2) - Ashersky, Axxle
Galzria (5) - Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah, TheMunch {L-1}
Yuma (1) - Qvist
Ashersky (1) - Yuma


Not Voting (1) - Grujah

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: Tuesday November 20, 2012. 7:30am PST (10:30am forum time)

What is this?  It's not a quote, and it's an old vote count.

[Axxle]

Reading... reading... lalalalalala...

Side note: I am really really really really really really really really really really really really.... *gasp* really really really really really really really really really really really really surprised I haven't been targeted that much yet.  Are our classic "lynch all lurker" players not in this game?  I don't remember who they are off the top of my head. I'm thinking if we have anyone that do that as town and they aren't doing so now, I think that would be a nice place to find mafia.  They're probably too scared to go for the "easy lynch".

Did a search for "Lurkers" by username.  Only one of us left that really cares about Lynch all Lurkers and he's been somewhat suspicious of us, although not too pushy.

I think both Munch and yuma are town. Would look for scum in the Joth / Qvist / Axxle area.. oh and ashersky is playing? Him too.

[Axxle]

Testing something in the next few posts

^

I was reposting some posts from earlier to see if yuma could have missed the votecount in the reply window.  I determined that it was very possible.

[Axxle]

you know, I could see the Eevee lynch too. Especially after getting all defensive at L4. But at this point, the inability of the town to lynch yuma is making him look even scummier. Like Eevee said, scum are hard to lynch.

Everyone is waiting for me to post, as they should.  There's no rush to lynch him, either wait for me to be replaced or lynch him at the deadline.

[Axxle]

you know, I could see the Eevee lynch too. Especially after getting all defensive at L4. But at this point, the inability of the town to lynch yuma is making him look even scummier. Like Eevee said, scum are hard to lynch.

Everyone is waiting for me to post, as they should.  There's no rush to lynch him, either wait for me to be replaced or lynch him at the deadline.

This reads to me as scum that thought they had a nice mislynch all lined up and then is surprised to see it not happen and is desperately trying to get it up and running again.

[Axxle]

you know, I could see the Eevee lynch too. Especially after getting all defensive at L4. But at this point, the inability of the town to lynch yuma is making him look even scummier. Like Eevee said, scum are hard to lynch.

Everyone is waiting for me to post, as they should.  There's no rush to lynch him, either wait for me to be replaced or lynch him at the deadline.

This reads to me as scum that thought they had a nice mislynch all lined up and then is surprised to see it not happen and is desperately trying to get it up and running again.

@joth: Who is the scum that is stopping the lynch on yuma?

[Axxle]

There is a glaring Axxle-shaped hole in this discussion.

It's filling up quickly.

[Axxle]

And we're done.
Scum reads in order:
1) Ashersky
2) Jotheonah
3) Captain_Frisk
4) Eevee
Null:
TheMunch
Voltgloss
yuma
Town:
QVist
Axxle

[Axxle]

And we're done.
Scum reads in order:
1) Ashersky
2) Jotheonah
3) Captain_Frisk
4) Eevee
Null:
TheMunch
Voltgloss
yuma
Town:
QVist
Axxle

This doesn't take into consideration scumteams.

[Qvist]

So Qvist, do you think I would be taking such controversial positions regarding town-yuma if I was scum?

Why not? For example to gain some trust.
I mean you played very townish at first, trying to defend everyone at first and slow things down.
But you didn't take up a position until I indicated that. It just seems you tried to adapt too much.
Now you play more offensive. So, I'm not sure what that means.
But, like I said. It's a not very strong read, more like a gut feeling.

[Qvist]

So Qvist, do you think I would be taking such controversial positions regarding town-yuma if I was scum?

Why not? For example to gain some trust.
I mean you played very townish at first, trying to defend everyone at first and slow things down.
But you didn't take up a position until I indicated that. It just seems you tried to adapt too much.
Now you play more offensive. So, I'm not sure what that means.
But, like I said. It's a not very strong read, more like a gut feeling.

I just noticed that offensive is ambiguos. I think "more aggresive" is more what I meant.

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle, have you been playing kickball?

[Qvist]

You can nominate for me for worst player of the year if you want (note - i do have the lowest win rate in regular games), but I'm sticking with it.

Naw CF, I think I am the worst with my 0% win rate (although 1 game is hardly a big enough sample size:P)

Oh, let's also add self-voting, which you habitually describe as anti-town. Boo.

This.

Also, all a breadcrumb proves is that you planned out your fakeclaim. And a breadcrumb that breadcrumbs a PR in general instead of a specific one? Seriously? That's much better for scum than town!

I'm with joth on this.  Vote: Galz.  This is all at best very anti-town behavior, and I know Galz to be better than this.  Plus his case in 225 is just super weak sauce.  And Galz is supposed to be teh Sauce Boss!

That being said I want to reiterate that I am still feeling CF is SK (although I'm sure that is going to get blown out of whack by confirmation bias) but he is really feeling to me to have a similar style to what happened to me in XV.  It explains my town on town feelings from him arguing with ehunt yet his overly defensive attitude towards a lot of suspicion floating around on him.  I'm probably wrong but mark my words...

TheMunch made it Very Easy (TM) to accidentally lynch Galz.  He places his vote in the middle of a paragraph and doesn't announce the L-1.

This is antitown and scummy.

I agree here. I think of all going on CFs Galzria wagon, TheMunch made it too easy.

[Qvist]

So I'm not sure if I should hear to my gut feeling or hear to all you more experienced players.

Typo

It's actually "Listen". They're similar meaning words but in this case you want to use "listen"

Yeah, I noticed this later too, but didn't to triple post only because of a typo. At least I clarified which word was missing.

[Qvist]

And we're done.
Scum reads in order:
1) Ashersky
2) Jotheonah
3) Captain_Frisk
4) Eevee
Null:
TheMunch
Voltgloss
yuma
Town:
QVist
Axxle

Why is TheMunch null? You pointed out that his bandwagon was scummy behaviour.
Ok, you also wrote that:

Voltgloss and Ashersky get town reads for slowing down the Yuma wagon. 

Eevee gets scum reads for defending Yuma and claiming no reads with the classic "I should do a reread."  I'm not holding my breath. 

I really like that TheMunch is making this distinction.  I would think as scum he'd lump them all in together (unless he's partners with Volt and/or Asher).

But I don't understand it. Could you clarify? What do you mean with "making this distinction"?

[jotheonah]

you know, I could see the Eevee lynch too. Especially after getting all defensive at L4. But at this point, the inability of the town to lynch yuma is making him look even scummier. Like Eevee said, scum are hard to lynch.

Everyone is waiting for me to post, as they should.  There's no rush to lynch him, either wait for me to be replaced or lynch him at the deadline.

This reads to me as scum that thought they had a nice mislynch all lined up and then is surprised to see it not happen and is desperately trying to get it up and running again.

Is that how you play scum? If it were me, I think I'd let that mislynch go and hop on the next one instead. Scum have lots of townies to choose from at this stage.

you know, I could see the Eevee lynch too. Especially after getting all defensive at L4. But at this point, the inability of the town to lynch yuma is making him look even scummier. Like Eevee said, scum are hard to lynch.

Everyone is waiting for me to post, as they should.  There's no rush to lynch him, either wait for me to be replaced or lynch him at the deadline.

This reads to me as scum that thought they had a nice mislynch all lined up and then is surprised to see it not happen and is desperately trying to get it up and running again.

@joth: Who is the scum that is stopping the lynch on yuma?

Best guess? Eevee. Also maybe Qvist, who seems to have a town read on him that isn't well-explained.

[Voltgloss]

Thanks, Axxle.

I will circle back to the yuma case later, but first will give my thoughts on the rest of the town, as yuma requested.  I doubt I will have the opportunity to post at such length during the workday, but am aiming to get at least half of that analysis posted tonight.

[Qvist]

Eevee, I don't get your position about TheMunch. Here are some comments from you about him.

I guess I should vote for Munch, because unless he is willing to reconsider, his being alive is detrimental to town even if he is town himself, and the only way we can win is if he is scum.

Idk, it's just I think Munch and yuma are pretty much equally likely to be scum

I think both Munch and yuma are town. Would look for scum in the Joth / Qvist / Axxle area.. oh and ashersky is playing? Him too.

And I certainly don't want to lynch Munch if he is town, I was just pointing out he needs to not be boneheaded and stubborn for town to have a chance in this game.

The third quote totally doesn't fit. So what is your opinion about him? You think he is town, but you want to vote for him because he plays badly!?
I don't understand this. You have brought up several arguments against him and still don't vote for him. No, you even think he's town. I don't get it. Can you explain?

[Captain_Frisk]

I would like to hear everyone else's views on if they think yuma's hammer was the work of scum or the work of town.

More likely scum than town.  Good points on yuma's timing, and his claims of not having noticed/read don't resonate.

Vote: Yuma

I do think Frisk is still worth a look.

vote: ashersky abandoning a crappy selfmade wagon to join one that he knows to contain a townie...

My sole vote on Frisk constitutes a wagon that I'm abandoning?  At least I've taken the time to build a case, which I actually pressed on D1, as well.  VG took the time to build a case on you.  You blithely lash out instead.

Semantics... wagon, single vote... whatever... the point is that you built a flawed case today and yesterday. You were pushing a lynch that had no substance. Sure Volt built a case, it has some merit. I am not blaming him for that. But I am saying that you are leaving your poorly built case on Frisk to join a relatively well build one on me... and voting for you.

Asher is not telling the truth here.  He was the 2nd person on me.  Even if it was empty when he left - he definitely turned my vote into a wagon, or tried to.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-4

Captain_Frisk (1) - QVist
Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Ashersky (2) - yuma, Axxle
yuma (3) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch
Eevee (1) - Captain_Frisk


Not Voting (1) - ashersky

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

[Eevee]

I don't want to vote for Munch, I think he is town who is tunneling way too hardcore and to be blunt playing badly. Saying "he is town" is maybe an overstatement, rather "more likely than average to be town".-

[Captain_Frisk]

Bump?

The lack of traction on my eevee case makes me feel even better about it.

[ashersky]

I don't want to vote for Munch, I think he is town who is tunneling way too hardcore and to be blunt playing badly. Saying "he is town" is maybe an overstatement, rather "more likely than average to be town".-

This sounds like town Eevee.  Scum Eevee is burned into my brain...

[Captain_Frisk]

Just because you don't have a hand of dominion cards doesn't mean you can ignore this thread folks.  Let's talk about eevee!

[Eevee]

Just because you don't have a hand of dominion cards doesn't mean you can ignore this thread folks.  Let's talk about eevee!

I like the subject! Personally I think he is town, and doing a good job. Others?

[Captain_Frisk]

Just because you don't have a hand of dominion cards doesn't mean you can ignore this thread folks.  Let's talk about eevee!

I like the subject! Personally I think he is town, and doing a good job. Others?

Strongly disagree!

[Axxle]

More scum than town, but there are better lynches.

[Eevee]

Someone should do a post count to reward Axxle for all those short posts!

[Captain_Frisk]

Someone should do a post count to reward Axxle for all those short posts!

I did notice that, but if he was going to reread all at once and respond as it goes, it seemed ok.  I prefer reading that to one big wall.

[Qvist]

I don't want to vote for Munch, I think he is town who is tunneling way too hardcore and to be blunt playing badly. Saying "he is town" is maybe an overstatement, rather "more likely than average to be town".-

Eevee, you become scummier and scummier to me. To me this doesn't make any sense at all regarding the quoting statements. You brought up evidence against him and still stay on "more likely than average to be town". I don't get it. Vote: Eevee

[Eevee]

Antitown behavior isn't necessarily mafia behavior. How am I contradicting myself?

[yuma]

I don't want to vote for Munch, I think he is town who is tunneling way too hardcore and to be blunt playing badly. Saying "he is town" is maybe an overstatement, rather "more likely than average to be town".-

Eevee, you become scummier and scummier to me. To me this doesn't make any sense at all regarding the quoting statements. You brought up evidence against him and still stay on "more likely than average to be town". I don't get it. Vote: Eevee

I have consistently said the same thing here as eevee: that the munch tunneling like a new and overly excited townie who thinks he has found scum. I wouldn't necessarily say that he is playing badly, because he truly thinks he found scum (he hasn't). But blatant tunneling is a good reason for voting, and voting for eevee because he isn't voting for someone he considers to be town isn't good either.

[jotheonah]

Look, if we're abandoning the yuma lynch, fine, but I want accountability.

I heard the town (or atleast Voltgloss) saying "This is a good lynch, but we want to hear from everyone and have more discussion first."

And then everyone chimed in and we've had lots of discussion, and none of it has made yuma seem one iota more townish, other than some WIFOM about whether scum would have hammered. So if we're abandoning this lynch for another, I would just like to know why.

[Eevee]

I'm not voting for yuma because I think jotheonah, Qvist and ashersky are far better candidates. (maybe others too, but those are the guys I'm interested in lynching today)

[yuma]

Look, if we're abandoning the yuma lynch, fine, but I want accountability.

I heard the town (or atleast Voltgloss) saying "This is a good lynch, but we want to hear from everyone and have more discussion first."

And then everyone chimed in and we've had lots of discussion, and none of it has made yuma seem one iota more townish, other than some WIFOM about whether scum would have hammered. So if we're abandoning this lynch for another, I would just like to know why.

My guess is that 1 or 2 scum thought that another townie player would be willing to join it, so they tried to stay off the wagon thinking it would be advantageous to have less scum on the wagon (that worked really well for Cuzz/ash/me in the last game) and expressed a town read on me. But come to find out another vote on me was hard to come by, so now the only people left are 1. townies who don't think I am scum or 2. scum who don't want to go back on what they have said, but will probably vote for me if a deadline comes because they have a built in excuse...

[Captain_Frisk]

Look, if we're abandoning the yuma lynch, fine, but I want accountability.

I heard the town (or atleast Voltgloss) saying "This is a good lynch, but we want to hear from everyone and have more discussion first."

And then everyone chimed in and we've had lots of discussion, and none of it has made yuma seem one iota more townish, other than some WIFOM about whether scum would have hammered. So if we're abandoning this lynch for another, I would just like to know why.

Joth - what kindof accountability are you looking for?  You just wanted to lynch him 24 hours into the day?  I like eevee, and i'm voting for him.  The case for yuma is basically "he derphammered".   That's not nearly as compelling to me as the thinking that leads me to suspect Eevee is scum. (off the wagon, buddying up to everyone)

[jotheonah]

I just get nervous when strong wagons get called out for going too quickly, and then die. The target usually ends up hanging around for the rest of the game because people have it somewhere in their heads that they must be town or we wold have lynched them.

If a wagon dies it should die for a reason, or it'll be a big question mark forever.

[Eevee]

Look, if we're abandoning the yuma lynch, fine, but I want accountability.

I heard the town (or atleast Voltgloss) saying "This is a good lynch, but we want to hear from everyone and have more discussion first."

And then everyone chimed in and we've had lots of discussion, and none of it has made yuma seem one iota more townish, other than some WIFOM about whether scum would have hammered. So if we're abandoning this lynch for another, I would just like to know why.

Joth - what kindof accountability are you looking for?  You just wanted to lynch him 24 hours into the day?  I like eevee, and i'm voting for him.  The case for yuma is basically "he derphammered".   That's not nearly as compelling to me as the thinking that leads me to suspect Eevee is scum. (off the wagon, buddying up to everyone)

Your case against me is that I'm buddying up to everyone (hint: I ALWAYS DO THAT! In fact, the only game this far where I haven't was the game where I was scum with you. There I lead the charge against several townies (archetype, Robz) until they were lynched). Seriously Frisk, your entire case against me is that "eevee is being himself, just like he would as mafia".

[Axxle]

Look, if we're abandoning the yuma lynch, fine, but I want accountability.

I heard the town (or atleast Voltgloss) saying "This is a good lynch, but we want to hear from everyone and have more discussion first."

And then everyone chimed in and we've had lots of discussion, and none of it has made yuma seem one iota more townish, other than some WIFOM about whether scum would have hammered. So if we're abandoning this lynch for another, I would just like to know why.

The entirety of yuma's case is his hammer and his reaction to his hammer.  Please let me know if I'm wrong.  So the "WIFOM about whether scum would have hammered" completely applies here.

[Axxle]

Who thinks ashersky is town and why?

[yuma]

Who thinks ashersky is town and why?

I don't!

[jotheonah]

I don't have a strong opinion about ashersky. I never seem to.

[ashersky]

Who thinks ashersky is town and why?

I do, because I know.

[TheMunch]

Who thinks ashersky is town and why?

I do, because I know.

So I am starting to feel a little less comfortable about the assuredness of my reads (particularly qvist, but not necessarily yuma, maybe a little bit on eevee but I haven't been convinced).  I was also dealing with fixing my car yesterday so I'm now just coming back to be overwhelmed with axxles millions of posts.  I dont know if I have a comment on anything hes said yet.

All that said, Ash is now the 3rd person in this game (I believe) to make this argument (another was Eevee, and I know I've gotten upset by someone else saying it).  The argument is claiming that you knowing that you are town somehow deserves credibility.  Eevee did it by saying: (paraphrasing) "I know the munch is wrong because he thinks I am scum but I know I am town."  I HATE this argument.  I dont think its a scumtell and the person saying it might not even be trying to saying as an argument.  But if you really are town, I feel like saying you are town is the most hollow, unverifiable way to convince others that you are town.  It is sloppy.  Stop saying you are town and start acting town.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-5

Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
Ashersky (2) - yuma, Axxle
yuma (3) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch
Eevee (2) - Captain_Frisk, QVist


Not Voting (1) - ashersky

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

[Captain_Frisk]

Bump? 

[Axxle]

Bump?

What do you think of ashersky?

[Captain_Frisk]

I think he might be scum, but he's not my favorite.  I'm not sure if its just OMGUS, or his willingness to dance between wagons... but I still prefer eevee.

[yuma]

Bump?

oh right... this game... hope things pick up here when Blitz4 goes into night

[Captain_Frisk]

Bump?

oh right... this game... hope things pick up here when Blitz4 goes into night

YOU AREN'T IN BLITZ4

[yuma]

Bump?

oh right... this game... hope things pick up here when Blitz4 goes into night

YOU AREN'T IN BLITZ4

no, but I am following it, pretty exciting stuff over there

[ashersky]

Bump?

oh right... this game... hope things pick up here when Blitz4 goes into night

Blitz4 doesn't have nights.

[yuma]

Bump?

oh right... this game... hope things pick up here when Blitz4 goes into night

Blitz4 doesn't have nights.

FOS: yuma

[yuma]

Thanks, Axxle.

I will circle back to the yuma case later, but first will give my thoughts on the rest of the town, as yuma requested.  I doubt I will have the opportunity to post at such length during the workday, but am aiming to get at least half of that analysis posted tonight.

volt, how is this coming along? It is kinda what I am waiting for

[Voltgloss]

Thanks, Axxle.

I will circle back to the yuma case later, but first will give my thoughts on the rest of the town, as yuma requested.  I doubt I will have the opportunity to post at such length during the workday, but am aiming to get at least half of that analysis posted tonight.

volt, how is this coming along? It is kinda what I am waiting for

It'll be up tonight.

[TheMunch]

Thanks, Axxle.

I will circle back to the yuma case later, but first will give my thoughts on the rest of the town, as yuma requested.  I doubt I will have the opportunity to post at such length during the workday, but am aiming to get at least half of that analysis posted tonight.

volt, how is this coming along? It is kinda what I am waiting for

It'll be up tonight.

Lynch all liars <3.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: volt gloss

He has been around, but is lurking here.  Morgrim Maia does not have priority.

[yuma]

Vote: volt gloss

He has been around, but is lurking here.  Morgrim Maia does not have priority.

I was thinking the same thing. This is looking like MIX voltgloss where he methodically put together large cases on players and lead town to his own personal victory

vote: voltgloss

[jotheonah]

That sure looks like yuma trying to get a wagon going on ANYONE else to save himself. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Volt often takes longer than he thinks he will on his long cases, but they're usually worth waiting for. Plus, I'm still cutting him a little slack for having an infant in the house, which I understand can ruin the best laid plans in all sorts of contexts.

[Captain_Frisk]

I somewhat agree joth.

[yuma]

That sure looks like yuma trying to get a wagon going on ANYONE else to save himself. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Volt often takes longer than he thinks he will on his long cases, but they're usually worth waiting for. Plus, I'm still cutting him a little slack for having an infant in the house, which I understand can ruin the best laid plans in all sorts of contexts.

sure I don't want to die... because again, I know I am town.... so at this point anyone else to save myself has a better chance of hitting scum. And it isn't like I have been jumping around with votes on everywhich player. I was voting for ash. I am now voting for Volt.

Sick infant sure... but I think a non-lurky town volt would have come in and said, sorry guys, got busy, case still isn't where I wanted it, I'll get it asap. But he hasn't. For two days, when he was obviously around and capable of posting that and involved in other threads. I'll keep my vote where it is, if you want to believe that I am trying to stay alive and lynch scum, believe it, because you are absolutely right.

[Voltgloss]

Vote: volt gloss

He has been around, but is lurking here.  Morgrim Maia does not have priority.

I was handling ZM4, which DID have priority.  And then working on getting a handle on Cosmic Encounters III and IV.

Then, baby.

So if you want to vote me for those commitments, hey that's cool, obviously having a month-old infant and stepping in to help moderate other games are both raging scumtells.

I'm now ignoring my family and working on my several hours' worth of analysis.  Outlining (1) my reads on everyone if yuma is town; (2) my reads on everyone if yuma is scum; and (3) the reasons why I think yuma is still more likely scum than town.  It'll take a while, and if my family pulls me away I will immediately post to that effect.

And after this game I probably won't play in another Mafia game for a while, because this feels like a really cheap shot and low blow, especially from fellow parent Frisk.

Yeah, I'm pissed.

[Voltgloss]

So here's the deal.

My case on yuma is what I would call an "evidence-based case."  By which I mean:  it doesn't hinge on an interpretation of things yuma said.  It hinges solely on an interpretation of things yuma did.  Specifically, his casting the hammervote on Galz without (according to his claim) having read all posts in the topic, and thus not knowing that his vote was the hammer OR that Galz had claimed a power role.

Now, I am inclined to think evidence-based cases are intrinsically more compelling than cases that hinge solely on a player's words.  That doesn't make them infallible, of course.  And it comes with a flipside too:  such cases are attractive - by which I mean, if someone inadvertently makes an evidence-based case against a player who is in fact Town, then the Mafia are likely to join that wagon because they have a ready-made excuse when the wagonee flips Town:  "the case was compelling, I was pretty sure he was scum!" 

I will also add another point:  in this setup, the Mafia are unlikely to bus.  Why?  Because they can only keep all town power roles locked down if all three of them are alive.  Then the Vig Switch can perform a nightkill, while the Cop and Doc Switches keep the Cop and Doc turned off.  If any one of them is lynched - even the Vig Switch - then either the Town Cop or Town Doc has to be left "on" at night for the Mafia to be able to make a nightkill.  So, bussing one of their number into a lynch ruins the significant advantage they currently enjoy. 

With these points in mind, I will address in my next three posts (1) my reads on everyone else if yuma is town; (2) my reads on everyone else is yuma is scum; and (3) why I think yuma is still more likely scum than town.

[Voltgloss]

I have to bring my 2-year-old down from her high chair now, be right back.

[Voltgloss]

I'm back.  Continuing to write.

[Voltgloss]

I have to get my daughter out from behind the couch.  Be right back.

[TheMunch]

That sure looks like yuma trying to get a wagon going on ANYONE else to save himself. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Volt often takes longer than he thinks he will on his long cases, but they're usually worth waiting for. Plus, I'm still cutting him a little slack for having an infant in the house, which I understand can ruin the best laid plans in all sorts of contexts.

I agree with this primarily because... wasn't Volt SK in IX?  We know for sure hes not SK in this game so voting for him for the similarity of style means that scumvolt is closer to skvolt than townvolt and I think for anyone this is usually not true.  Vote: Yuma

[Eevee]

fwiw, i didnt want the delay in getting your case up scummy, volt. i recall it has happened before, and your reasons were more than sufficient. a simple "sorry i was feeling lazy" would have been enough for me.

[Voltgloss]

That took longer than expected because after pulling my daughter out from behind the couch, I also had to change my infant's diaper, dress him, dress my oldest son and daughter, undress my daughter and change her diaper, dress her again, put my infant into his carseat, watch all three kids while my wife got dressed, calm my daughter down from a tantrum after her older brother took one of her toys, explain to her older brother that he cannot take his siblings' toys, clean up about fifteen toys from the floor, and lock the door after my wife left to go to the food store with our infant.

I'm now back at a computer in the family room watching my oldest son and daughter, and typing again.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: volt gloss

He has been around, but is lurking here.  Morgrim Maia does not have priority.

I was handling ZM4, which DID have priority.  And then working on getting a handle on Cosmic Encounters III and IV.

Then, baby.

So if you want to vote me for those commitments, hey that's cool, obviously having a month-old infant and stepping in to help moderate other games are both raging scumtells.

I'm now ignoring my family and working on my several hours' worth of analysis.  Outlining (1) my reads on everyone if yuma is town; (2) my reads on everyone if yuma is scum; and (3) the reasons why I think yuma is still more likely scum than town.  It'll take a while, and if my family pulls me away I will immediately post to that effect.

And after this game I probably won't play in another Mafia game for a while, because this feels like a really cheap shot and low blow, especially from fellow parent Frisk.

Yeah, I'm pissed.

Hey man. Parenting wins hands down. Fake modding morgrim does not.

[Voltgloss]

Hey man. Parenting wins hands down. Fake modding morgrim does not.

Are you saying I'm mafia because I posted a couple jokes in Morgrim's topic that took about 1 minute each to post?

[Voltgloss]

Be back, my son wants to play hide and seek.

[jotheonah]

I would be mad at you for all the irrelevant quick posts, but your family sounds adorable! (If a bit of a handful.)

[yuma]

I'm back.  Continuing to write.

volt we need to have a chat via pm or something. I feel like you are frustrated with me and I with you mafia aside. These posts feel like they are directed at me tomake me feel bad. Well they are working. I do feel bad. I just deleted a post that said I was going to /out. But figured it would be best to clear my head and talk to first before over reacting

[Voltgloss]

These posts are being made because of this:

Sick infant sure... but I think a non-lurky town volt would have come in and said, sorry guys, got busy, case still isn't where I wanted it, I'll get it asap. But he hasn't. For two days, when he was obviously around and capable of posting that and involved in other threads.

So I'm giving updates on my progress, because that appears to be what's needed.

[Voltgloss]

Also, I just got back to the computer after my son got wrapped up in another game, so am back writing now.

[Voltgloss]

Never mind, my son is now asking to play a Q*bert game online, as we saw Wreck-it Ralph last week and he loves Q*bert.  Be back when that is done.

[yuma]

These posts are being made because of this:

Sick infant sure... but I think a non-lurky town volt would have come in and said, sorry guys, got busy, case still isn't where I wanted it, I'll get it asap. But he hasn't. For two days, when he was obviously around and capable of posting that and involved in other threads.

So I'm giving updates on my progress, because that appears to be what's needed.

I am sorry if I have offended you. I really am. I am not asking for minute by minute updates. Maybe one at the end of the night saying sorry still in progress. Go spend time with your family. Don't worry about mafia. Don't. Cause right now your posts making me feel guilty for pressuring you to choose mafia over family, something I never intended. Do you want me to /out? Because I am not having a lot of fun right now and apparently making you angry as well. For me mafia is supposed to be fun. If it isn't what is the point?

[Axxle]

Vote: volt gloss

He has been around, but is lurking here.  Morgrim Maia does not have priority.

Vote: Voltgloss

This is the worst reason to vote for someone.

[Axxle]

Vote: volt gloss

He has been around, but is lurking here.  Morgrim Maia does not have priority.

Vote: Voltgloss

This is the worst reason to vote for someone.

Well sh*t.  I mean Vote: Captain Frisk

[Voltgloss]

These posts are being made because of this:

Sick infant sure... but I think a non-lurky town volt would have come in and said, sorry guys, got busy, case still isn't where I wanted it, I'll get it asap. But he hasn't. For two days, when he was obviously around and capable of posting that and involved in other threads.

So I'm giving updates on my progress, because that appears to be what's needed.

I am sorry if I have offended you. I really am. I am not asking for minute by minute updates. Maybe one at the end of the night saying sorry still in progress. Go spend time with your family. Don't worry about mafia. Don't. Cause right now your posts making me feel guilty for pressuring you to choose mafia over family, something I never intended. Do you want me to /out? Because I am not having a lot of fun right now and apparently making you angry as well. For me mafia is supposed to be fun. If it isn't what is the point?

OK, I will give an update at the end of the night if not able to complete analysis by then.

Apology accepted.  I am sorry if I overreacted.  I have a fairly visceral reaction to anything that leads off with "sick infant sure," which reads as very dismissive to the most important thing in my life.

I don't want you to /out.

[yuma]

I feel much better to have that out of the way. I don't think you overreacted. I certainly do not want to trivialize your relationship with your family and am again sorry if my comment was interpreted that way. I can now easily see how it could have been. I will try to be more careful about that in the future, please let me know if you feel I overstep again in anyway.

In regard to this game:

I did some thinking about my status and in relation to mafia. Mostly I was thinking that a great strategy for them might be to not lynch me today. But instead to lynch another townie other than me--but make sure I was on the wagon for that player--and then easily lynch me tomorrow for the win. Personally, I am not going to let this effect my scum hunting or my voting, but it is something that I think could be a strategy for them to try and accomplish and wanted to let others know about it.

[Captain_Frisk]

Unvote

Volt - sorry to Cheeve you off, and I'm sure that life is stressful.  Are you sleeping through the night yet?

My vote was based on your presence elsewhere - and little here. I know that full analysis is time consuming- and ive had this problem myself, but I've also held back posting because trying to post meaningful content is 10x harder as scum

I'd rather mod kill myself and the rest of town than mess with your family

[yuma]

Unvote

Volt - sorry to Cheeve you off, and I'm sure that life is stressful.  Are you sleeping through the night yet?

My vote was based on your presence elsewhere - and little here. I know that full analysis is time consuming- and ive had this problem myself, but I've also held back posting because trying to post meaningful content is 10x harder as scum

I'd rather mod kill myself and the rest of town than mess with your family

forgot to unvote as well... but I guess I'll go back to vote: ashersky

[ashersky]

I like the kid-updates, as a father myself.  Completely understand the priority there.

vote: Yuma for that, and Volt's case.

[yuma]

I like the kid-updates, as a father myself.  Completely understand the priority there.

vote: Yuma for that, and Volt's case.

Vote yuma for what? Volt's case, yes. but what is the "that?"

[ashersky]

I like the kid-updates, as a father myself.  Completely understand the priority there.

vote: Yuma for that, and Volt's case.

Vote yuma for what? Volt's case, yes. but what is the "that?"

The sick kid comment.

[yuma]

I like the kid-updates, as a father myself.  Completely understand the priority there.

vote: Yuma for that, and Volt's case.

Vote yuma for what? Volt's case, yes. but what is the "that?"

The sick kid comment.

Is this supposed to make me feel like a bad person? Or is it supposed to just be a mafia accusation. Because, again, it seems like this is intended to make me feel like a bad person. Like I am anti-family or something.

I mean really. I feel like a just have this dark cloud surrounding this game right now.

[ashersky]

I like the kid-updates, as a father myself.  Completely understand the priority there.

vote: Yuma for that, and Volt's case.

Vote yuma for what? Volt's case, yes. but what is the "that?"

The sick kid comment.

Is this supposed to make me feel like a bad person? Or is it supposed to just be a mafia accusation. Because, again, it seems like this is intended to make me feel like a bad person. Like I am anti-family or something.

I mean really. I feel like a just have this dark cloud surrounding this game right now.

I mean, Axxle is voting Frisk for the same think.  I don't think you're a bad person for it, but the idea behind it, that we lynch Volt for lurking, I think has become a good scum tactic.  The f.ds lynch all lurkers thing has gotten some traction, given its recent successes, and mafia are well aware of that and I think much more likely to use it to their advantage.

So that's the long version.

[ashersky]

I was on Frisk earlier, too, and he started the lymph volt for lurking thing, so that fits with my original scumread there, too.

[ashersky]

I was on Frisk earlier, too, and he started the lymph volt for lurking thing, so that fits with my original scumread there, too.

Lymph = iPad lynch.

[yuma]

I like the kid-updates, as a father myself.  Completely understand the priority there.

vote: Yuma for that, and Volt's case.

Vote yuma for what? Volt's case, yes. but what is the "that?"

The sick kid comment.

Is this supposed to make me feel like a bad person? Or is it supposed to just be a mafia accusation. Because, again, it seems like this is intended to make me feel like a bad person. Like I am anti-family or something.

I mean really. I feel like a just have this dark cloud surrounding this game right now.

I mean, Axxle is voting Frisk for the same think.  I don't think you're a bad person for it, but the idea behind it, that we lynch Volt for lurking, I think has become a good scum tactic.  The f.ds lynch all lurkers thing has gotten some traction, given its recent successes, and mafia are well aware of that and I think much more likely to use it to their advantage.

So that's the long version.

Ok thanks for the clarification.

[TheMunch]

I like the kid-updates, as a father myself.  Completely understand the priority there.

vote: Yuma for that, and Volt's case.

Vote yuma for what? Volt's case, yes. but what is the "that?"

The sick kid comment.

Is this supposed to make me feel like a bad person? Or is it supposed to just be a mafia accusation. Because, again, it seems like this is intended to make me feel like a bad person. Like I am anti-family or something.

I mean really. I feel like a just have this dark cloud surrounding this game right now.

I really dont like how Yuma is turning the issue from calling out lurkers into one of whether or not Yuma is a good or bad person in real life.  From my side of the internet, I saw Yuma call Volt for lurking (hell even I called Volt out with my "lynch all liars" comment).  Volt comes back with a touching tale of his kids (love it by the way; more children should hide behind couches as their sanctuary) and then Yuma gets all apologetic.  I never really saw him being a good or bad person irl as an issue.  Instead this reads very much like hardcore deflecting.  The issue was that Yuma is scum and in fact that was the meat of Volts case.  Now instead of determining whether or not Yuma is scum we are being asked whether or not Yuma is a bad person.  This reads very scummy to me.  I dont care whether or not he cares about volts kids.  I care that he has so drastically changed the issue.  Theres no dark cloud, Yuma.  Just you being scum and us figuring you out <3.

[ashersky]

No recent vote count, but Yuma is at L-1.

[TheMunch]

No recent vote count, but Yuma is at L-1.

As well he should be.  I would hammer if I wasn't already voting.

[TheMunch]

The suspense is killing me.

[TheMunch]

Just out of curiousity, for the people lurking, watching, and waiting for volts case that may or may not come, what are your reasons currently for not voting for Yuma?

[Captain_Frisk]

How about we have until the 26th?

[Voltgloss]

CF:  no, new baby isn't sleeping through night yet, in fact he has days and nights mixed up

Just got home from a long evening out w/ family.  Simply too exhausted to complete analysis.  Apologies.  Am aiming to do so tomorrow early afternoonish;  should have time then.

[Voltgloss]

Well, I'm learning that it's basically impossible to get lengthy computer time over the weekend now with 3 kids.  Family has decided for me that we are going out this early afternoon. 

If I don't have the rest of my analysis up before first thing in the morning tomorrow, I'll /out. 

[TheMunch]

Volt, you're writing a case on Yuma, right?  How bout we just lynch Yuma so Volt doesn't have to feel bad about not posting the case.  SOMEONE HAMMER!!!

[Axxle]

Does anyone voting for yuma (besides volt) have a case for it besides the hammer?

[Eevee]

I dont think Volt needs to put in that much effort in order to stay in the game. It's not like anyone else is posting here either..

My stance on yuma should be pretty clear by now. All this lurking and stalling is making my reads less clear though. :/

[Qvist]

I'm back.

First: PLEASE EVERYONE CALM DOWN. THIS IS A GAME!
@Voltgloss: Family is first priority and if you have to leave the game because of them, then do it. But, please don't leave. It's great that you replaced Grujah, but another replacement would reall be horrible. You don't need to post twitter-like one-liners here. I don't understand the "Lynch all lurkers" thing. We all have a private life.

Ok, now back to the game.

Inofficial vote count:
Jotheonah (1) - Eevee
yuma (4) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky
Eevee (1) - Qvist
ashersky (1) - yuma
Captain_Frisk (1) - Axxle

Not voting: Captain_Frisk


@Captain_Frisk: The whole Voltgloss voting sort of backfired. I still think he's the scummiest person around here. What's that with "lynch all lurkers"? I mean why?
@yuma: I didn't like the band wagon here either. But I'm still confident that you're town.
@TheMunch: I already explained why I don't vote on yuma. And why did you sort of double vote on yuma in #541? I don't like that. It sort of gave the impression that he is now on L-1.
@ashersky: I didn't like your L-1 on yuma, especially with that strange reason.

I go back and Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Axxle]

Does anyone voting for yuma (besides volt) have a case for it besides the hammer?

also, who is your second choice?

[TheMunch]

Does anyone voting for yuma (besides volt) have a case for it besides the hammer?

also, who is your second choice?

My second choice is Eevee, hands down.

[TheMunch]

Does anyone voting for yuma (besides volt) have a case for it besides the hammer?

also, who is your second choice?

My second choice is Eevee, hands down.

Let me clarify.  Eevee isn't for sure scum to me but he my biggest 2nd scum read.

[jotheonah]

I also say Eevee. I think his flip would be informative, among other things. But if yuma flips town, Eevee will look quite a bit townier to me also.

[yuma]

couple of points:

1. sorry if I was overly sensitive yesterday or something... If you want to interpret my apologies as a scum maneuver, I won't dispute it. But regardless of my alignment know that they were sincere and were not part of any strategy. I don't like hurting other people. It goes against everything I stand for and when I do, I want to make sure I put it right above all else.

2. Volt: I didn't mean to ask for huge cases on every person. I appreciate the effort you have put in thus far, but even a rather simple scum to town list would suffice. Please don't /out, unless you really think you should.

3. when/if I get lynched... remember these words from Volt "such cases are attractive - by which I mean, if someone inadvertently makes an evidence-based case against a player who is in fact Town, then the Mafia are likely to join that wagon because they have a ready-made excuse when the wagonee flips Town:  'the case was compelling, I was pretty sure he was scum!'"

4. I am highly annoyed by theMunch. If he is town. He is playing really, really bad as town. And I do think he is town, so I think his play is bad. If nothing else, my getting lynched will teach him (if he is town) a lesson about holding too strongly onto a read and tunneling. He has not appeared to look elsewhere as I suggested and has persistently pestered town to lynch me before all the discussion and such has taken place.

5. Should I claim?

[Eevee]

If you think your lynch is imminent (as you seem to), I think you should claim.

[TheMunch]

4. I am highly annoyed by theMunch. If he is town. He is playing really, really bad as town. And I do think he is town, so I think his play is bad. If nothing else, my getting lynched will teach him (if he is town) a lesson about holding too strongly onto a read and tunneling. He has not appeared to look elsewhere as I suggested and has persistently pestered town to lynch me before all the discussion and such has taken place.

I dont think there is any reason to get annoyed by me.  Its all in good fun .  That being said I dont think I am being really, really bad town.  Maybe just bad town.  Or very bad town.  Perhaps even really bad town.  But two really's is pushing it.  I am trying to look back and be very critical with the cases I made earlier today.  It was a day where I was very tired but I 100% honestly thought that I had found scum, and found all three scum. 

But that was my tired brain talking.  That being said I am trying to trust my reads a little bit while trying to flesh out the confirmation bias, which was probably all over that scum-trio argument.  I apologize for tunneling, since if I am right then all it does is weaken my case.  But I can say most definitely I haven't been looking only at you, Yuma.  I have had a lot of interaction with Eevee as well and have explained my reads from earlier today on volt, ash, and joth.  It is disappointing that you have only seen me pushing for you to lynch (which I am most definitely still behind).  But let me paraphrase my arguments on both Yuma and Eevee and why I would be comfortable with either of their lynches.

Yuma:
Hammered Galz wagon while Galz was still voting for himself, while giving little time to claim/unvote/do anything after I voted him to L-1.  I dont think anyone disagrees on the fact that Galz went a little off the rails yesterday but I could def see scum looking at a wagon growing on someone not on his scum team and hammering before any real discussion can happen.  Then in day 2 I was very uncomfortable with the way that Yuma was defending himself, culminating with the king of all deflections vis a vis the "am I a bad person?" argument.  Even the way he tries to paint me as super misguided town (ps why do you know I am town, Yuma?) just seems to all be focused on derailing and deflecting the case on him instead of just acting/being town.

Eevee:
Our interaction started with tired!themunch calling out Eevee for being Yuma's scumbuddy.  This may or may not actually be the case.  It was bad to have convinced myself Yuma is town and then go after Eevee thinking I am 100% right about Yuma without Yuma actually flipping.  However, I do think there is a lot to be gained from my back and forth with Eevee; namely I think he said a bunch of scummy things while trying to defend against a very flimsy case.  Couple that with Eevee's willingness to kill me for being "detrimental to town" even if I am town, when Town is still in a very precarious situation, reads very scummy.  Both Eevee and Yuma share the scummy trait of "willingness to lynch bad town play even if it causes town to lose".  We have one mislynch and if you say that I am town, even bad town, I really dont think I should be that lynch.

So there ya go.  Yuma and Eevee cases trying to parse out as much of the confirmation bias as possible.

[yuma]

4. I am highly annoyed by theMunch. If he is town. He is playing really, really bad as town. And I do think he is town, so I think his play is bad. If nothing else, my getting lynched will teach him (if he is town) a lesson about holding too strongly onto a read and tunneling. He has not appeared to look elsewhere as I suggested and has persistently pestered town to lynch me before all the discussion and such has taken place.

I dont think there is any reason to get annoyed by me.  Its all in good fun . 

really annoyed in mafia land... in reality land we are cool.

[Eevee]

Munch it's ridiculous to say I want to lynch you even if you are town. I was very frustrated with your play when I wrote that, obviously I don't mean that literally. In fact, I've lobbied against your lynch quite a few times after that (by stating I think you are just a misguided townie even though you tunnel myself and yuma, my two biggest town reads, like a mad man).

[TheMunch]

4. I am highly annoyed by theMunch. If he is town. He is playing really, really bad as town. And I do think he is town, so I think his play is bad. If nothing else, my getting lynched will teach him (if he is town) a lesson about holding too strongly onto a read and tunneling. He has not appeared to look elsewhere as I suggested and has persistently pestered town to lynch me before all the discussion and such has taken place.

I dont think there is any reason to get annoyed by me.  Its all in good fun . 

really annoyed in mafia land... in reality land we are cool.

Good.  Read the whole post though.   I think this is a lot more level headed than I have been being and would love to hear what people think.  Specifically I would love from you an answer to the question of why you know that I am town.

[yuma]

Yuma:
Hammered Galz wagon while Galz was still voting for himself, while giving little time to claim/unvote/do anything after I voted him to L-1.  I dont think anyone disagrees on the fact that Galz went a little off the rails yesterday but I could def see scum looking at a wagon growing on someone not on his scum team and hammering before any real discussion can happen.  Then in day 2 I was very uncomfortable with the way that Yuma was defending himself, culminating with the king of all deflections vis a vis the "am I a bad person?" argument.  Even the way he tries to paint me as super misguided town (ps why do you know I am town, Yuma?) just seems to all be focused on derailing and deflecting the case on him instead of just acting/being town.

1. We've been over this before... I didn't know Galz was at L1. I read the post where he voted for himself and immediately voted for him. It was only after going back and seeing previous votes that I realized that I had hammered him. You can see that by my post after the thread lock--sorry insomniac--that I referenced a derphammer. But I said it wasn't a derphammer because I felt that I would have voted for him even if had known he was at L-1. At this point in my playing of mafia. Self voting is almost always going to result in me voting for that person. It is a scum maneuver--although sometimes used by town players, but it shouldn't be, it should never, ever be used by a town player--and guess what, it his scum... just too bad it was SK instead of mafia.

2. I understand you being uncomfortable with my interactions with volt. And I realize that you won't be able to take the following at face value, but at that point I cared more about repairing a hurt to Volt then I did about the game. Vote for me for other reasons, but not for that. That was me being sincere, trying to apologize to someone who I had offended regardless of the game or my alignment.

3. I don't know you are town. I think you are town. I strongly think you are town. That is a read. I obviously don't know your alignment.

4. I am not trying to derail or deflect. At this point I am trying to make sure that town is in a good position to succeed tomorrow after you mislynch me. You are the one trying to push the issue before we can get to that point. Which is just bad, bad town play. Or ok mafia play, but I don't think you are mafia.

[yuma]

If you think your lynch is imminent (as you seem to), I think you should claim.

I am VT.

[Voltgloss]

No time.  No time.  Argh, no time.

I hate posting scumrankings without analysis but I have no time to write the analysis!

If yuma is TOWN, I suspect (in ranking order):
1. ashersky
2. Qvist
3. Captain_Frisk

If yuma is SCUM, I suspect (in ranking order after yuma):
1. Axxle
2. Eevee

yuma's VT claim has me thinking and I need to mull that more.  I would have expected scum in yuma's shoes to claim the power role that he is the "switch" for, to at least get a counterclaim and get that power role nullified in the night via nightkill so scum keeps its lock on the town's powers.

[Captain_Frisk]

No time.  No time.  Argh, no time.

I hate posting scumrankings without analysis but I have no time to write the analysis!

If yuma is TOWN, I suspect (in ranking order):
1. ashersky
2. Qvist
3. Captain_Frisk

If yuma is SCUM, I suspect (in ranking order after yuma):
1. Axxle
2. Eevee

yuma's VT claim has me thinking and I need to mull that more.  I would have expected scum in yuma's shoes to claim the power role that he is the "switch" for, to at least get a counterclaim and get that power role nullified in the night via nightkill so scum keeps its lock on the town's powers.

I was about to say that he could be the vig switch, but he'd still probably be better off claiming a PR.

[jotheonah]

it's a very odd claim. Seems like scum should want to out a PR if they're going down.

BUT, it's such a WIFOM. Maybe he saw how tentative the town is about this lynch and thought a VT claim would be enough to stop the lynch.

[Eevee]

Everyone ask yourself: Is yuma our best chance at hitting mafia today? I absolutely don't think he is, but I can't make an alternative lynch happen alone. Some of you townies voting for yuma should reconsider.

[Captain_Frisk]

Everyone ask yourself: Is yuma our best chance at hitting mafia today? I absolutely don't think he is, but I can't make an alternative lynch happen alone. Some of you townies voting for yuma should reconsider.

I am working on an alternative lynch.

[Eevee]

Everyone ask yourself: Is yuma our best chance at hitting mafia today? I absolutely don't think he is, but I can't make an alternative lynch happen alone. Some of you townies voting for yuma should reconsider.

I am working on an alternative lynch.

You seem to be not voting. Do you mean you are preparing a case?

[Qvist]

No time.  No time.  Argh, no time.

I hate posting scumrankings without analysis but I have no time to write the analysis!

If yuma is TOWN, I suspect (in ranking order):
1. ashersky
2. Qvist
3. Captain_Frisk

If yuma is SCUM, I suspect (in ranking order after yuma):
1. Axxle
2. Eevee

yuma's VT claim has me thinking and I need to mull that more.  I would have expected scum in yuma's shoes to claim the power role that he is the "switch" for, to at least get a counterclaim and get that power role nullified in the night via nightkill so scum keeps its lock on the town's powers.

Why am I a suspect if yuma is town? I always said, I think he is town. I mean if yuma is indeed town, No.1 suspect is TheMunch, don't you agree?

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh, right - I had backed off volt this weekend.

Vote: Eevee

[Eevee]

I don't like Frisk's alternative lynch. I also think it's noteworthy the initial case against me was Munch's "he is yuma's scumbuddy!!!!".

[Voltgloss]

Why am I a suspect if yuma is town? I always said, I think he is town. I mean if yuma is indeed town, No.1 suspect is TheMunch, don't you agree?

A reasonable question.  I thought hard about TheMunch, and whether what we're seeing is scumplay or overeager-townplay.  I just have trouble seeing TheMunch, as scum, going after multiple targets (Eevee PLUS yuma) so hard as he had, especially when his case on Eevee was developed after my case on yuma.  Why wouldn't he just stick to the yuma-case?  Or, stick to the yuma-case while also keeping open the case he was pursuing beforehand (which is what ashersky seems to have done re: Frisk). 

I suspect you, Qvist (if yuma is town), because (1) I can see you, as scum, being worried about ALL the scum being on a town!yuma wagon, especially right after Eevee's admonition to go slow; and (2) I haven't seen well-defined reasons from you to see yuma as town.  Eevee and Axxle have given their reasoning, but you - as far as I recall seeing; correct me if I am wrong - are sticking with an unexplained gut feel. 

Separate issue:  I am suspicious of Eevee's "anyone but yuma" stance.  Eevee, do you have a specific other person to propose as the lynch?

[Eevee]

Qvist, jotheonah or ashersky would be my favourites. Should I reread them to build Volt-esque cases to have people consider it?

[Voltgloss]

Qvist, jotheonah or ashersky would be my favourites. Should I reread them to build Volt-esque cases to have people consider it?

A couple lines would do.  I'm coming to the conclusion that "Volt-esque" cases aren't the best way to play this game, because they create an expectation that can't be kept up in one's (scarce) spare time.

[TheMunch]

I don't like Frisk's alternative lynch. I also think it's noteworthy the initial case against me was Munch's "he is yuma's scumbuddy!!!!".

I mentioned this in my reply to Yuma.  Yes the case did start there and I dont think it was the best place to start.  However, my interrogation of you led to scummy things, which of course you refute, but, I would be comfortable with lynching you instead for more than "you are yuma's scumbuddy".

[Eevee]

I don't like Frisk's alternative lynch. I also think it's noteworthy the initial case against me was Munch's "he is yuma's scumbuddy!!!!".

I mentioned this in my reply to Yuma.  Yes the case did start there and I dont think it was the best place to start.  However, my interrogation of you led to scummy things, which of course you refute, but, I would be comfortable with lynching you instead for more than "you are yuma's scumbuddy".

Do you think it's likely that yuma is town and I'm scum?

[Eevee]

Qvist, jotheonah or ashersky would be my favourites. Should I reread them to build Volt-esque cases to have people consider it?

A couple lines would do.  I'm coming to the conclusion that "Volt-esque" cases aren't the best way to play this game, because they create an expectation that can't be kept up in one's (scarce) spare time.

Remember, some of the guys giving you a hard time might just be mafia.

The reason I suspect Axxle less than the three I listed is a) his lurking was so excessive he must have known he would catch heat for it. b) his rapid short posts felt towny to me. Others are actually mostly just PoE. They haven't done anything to make me think they are down. I have strongish town reads on yuma and Munch, medium town read on Volt and a light town read on Axxle. Ergo, Qvist, ashersky or jotheonah are my preferred lynches. Would really need to reread to explain it better, although Qvist's mystical town read on yuma is something I can sort of resonate with.

Vote: Qvist in fact.


PPE: I realize I completely left off Frisk. He'd be a light town read with Axxle, don't even remember why though. Sorry.

[jotheonah]

I sort of dislike Eevee's web of gut FOSes.

I mean, I get gut reads, sure. But with only one mislynch and a credible evidence-based case, does it make sense to trust them right now? And why is Eevee so desperate to derail the yuma wagon, and yet unable to produce cases on any of his reads? Until I see some evidence otherwise, Occam's Razor seems to point to yuma-Eevee. Right now I'm voting yuma of the two, because if he's right, a town flip will more or less clear Eevee for me.

(No idea who the third partner on that scum team would be. Maybe Axxle?)

[Eevee]

Good town play from me would certainly be to reread all my suspects and try to build a real case. I'm not promising anything too, the task feels daunting. Again, sorry.

[TheMunch]

I don't like Frisk's alternative lynch. I also think it's noteworthy the initial case against me was Munch's "he is yuma's scumbuddy!!!!".

I mentioned this in my reply to Yuma.  Yes the case did start there and I dont think it was the best place to start.  However, my interrogation of you led to scummy things, which of course you refute, but, I would be comfortable with lynching you instead for more than "you are yuma's scumbuddy".

Do you think it's likely that yuma is town and I'm scum?

I think there is evidence to point that either of you are scum independent of the others alignment.

[yuma]

it's a very odd claim. Seems like scum should want to out a PR if they're going down.

BUT, it's such a WIFOM. Maybe he saw how tentative the town is about this lynch and thought a VT claim would be enough to stop the lynch.

funny that you aren't even considering the possibility that I am in fact a VT. A VT claiming VT isn't odd at all. It is very straight forward. It is a possibility isn't it? Unless you are so adamant that I am scum because you have superior knowledge that I am in fact not scum?

[Captain_Frisk]

Good town play from me would certainly be to reread all my suspects and try to build a real case. I'm not promising anything too, the task feels daunting. Again, sorry.

Vote: Eevee

[yuma]

I suspect you, Qvist (if yuma is town), because (1) I can see you, as scum, being worried about ALL the scum being on a town!yuma wagon, especially right after Eevee's admonition to go slow; and (2) I haven't seen well-defined reasons from you to see yuma as town.  Eevee and Axxle have given their reasoning, but you - as far as I recall seeing; correct me if I am wrong - are sticking with an unexplained gut feel. 

I am town, I have a nullish read toward Volt--despite my rudevote on him earlier today--so I feel relatively confident in sheeping this read from Volt. Of all the players not voting for me, Qvist stands out the most. And I really do think that the whole reason I have not been lynched yet is because mafia wanted to keep 1 or 2 off the wagon, expressed town reads on me thinking that another townie would vote for me, but now can't vote for me because it would require them going back on their former read.

vote: Qvist

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-6

Qvist (2) - Eevee, yuma
Captain_Frisk (2) - Axxle, QVist
yuma (4) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky
Eevee (1) - Captain_Frisk

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

[jotheonah]

it's a very odd claim. Seems like scum should want to out a PR if they're going down.

BUT, it's such a WIFOM. Maybe he saw how tentative the town is about this lynch and thought a VT claim would be enough to stop the lynch.

funny that you aren't even considering the possibility that I am in fact a VT. A VT claiming VT isn't odd at all. It is very straight forward. It is a possibility isn't it? Unless you are so adamant that I am scum because you have superior knowledge that I am in fact not scum?

Of course I'm considering it. It's implied in the first sentence. = Scum wouldn't claim VT, therefore, yuma is town.  But then the second sentence is about how that doesn't work, because you might have been counting on us drawing that conclusion and unvoting you.

Ultimately, the VT claim gives you some town points on balance. But it hardly clears you.

[jotheonah]

Hey Axxle and Qvist, what's the case on Frisk ATM?

[Qvist]

yuma is town because he looks a lot less scummier than all others, not because he did something really townish.
I admit I have no real reason for that, but there are a lot of better targets than him.

TheMunch with his aggressive "lynch yuma" play, ashersky with his L-1 on yuma without real reason and I already said a lot about Eevee and CF. Even jtotheonah plays a little bit too "adaptively" IMO to be townish.
I have no big read on Axxle. But Voltgloss and yuma stay over, so they are town in my opinion.
And yuma claiming VT for me is another hint he's town.

PPE: I realize I completely left off Frisk. He'd be a light town read with Axxle, don't even remember why though. Sorry.

I get critized because I have no real reason to give yuma town creds and Eevee posts this? Come on.
I think more and more that Eevee and CF are Mafia. Although CF's vote for him don't fit...

Hey Axxle and Qvist, what's the case on Frisk ATM?

Sorry, I don't think I understand this question. What do you want to know?

[Captain_Frisk]

He wants to know why you are voting for me

[Qvist]

Again? Didn't I make that clear enough? Read posts #349-#356 and a lot of other posts in between.

[yuma]

yuma (4) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky

Well after a bunch of hoopla, we are back where we were before with 4 on me, 4 off me and me. A nice stalemate...

Today I am willing to lynch ashersky or Qvist. Is it time for a wagon to start forming elsewhere? It appears TheMunch is unlikely to vote elsewhere, what about you other 3?

[ashersky]

yuma (4) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky

Well after a bunch of hoopla, we are back where we were before with 4 on me, 4 off me and me. A nice stalemate...

Today I am willing to lynch ashersky or Qvist. Is it time for a wagon to start forming elsewhere? It appears TheMunch is unlikely to vote elsewhere, what about you other 3?

I'm willing to lynch Frisk, possibly Munch.

I am not willing to lynch Eevee or VG.

[Captain_Frisk]

Again? Didn't I make that clear enough? Read posts #349-#356 and a lot of other posts in between.

I was just answering you last question in your above megapost

[Axxle]

Hey Axxle and Qvist, what's the case on Frisk ATM?

I didn't like how he pushed Galz's lynch, nor how he's abandoned the yuma wagon.

[TheMunch]

So there are four votes on Yuma and there have been four votes for a while.  Maybe Yuma even will come out from this with his life.  But I really think there has to be a reason why it is so hard to actually follow through and lynch Yuma.  I'm thinking that Yuma is scum with a team that is unwilling to bus/hammer for town cred.  They dont need town cred when town only has 1 mislynch; they need their scum alive to keep town in this precarious position.  I feel this way about Yuma more so and Eevee somewhat as I've seen his name thrown around a bunch as a possible lynch candidate yet still never gaining traction.  In general I feel like lynch should unilaterally be harder to lynch as we have to convince a larger percentage of a smaller amount of players that they are scum and this fits the bill with Yuma and Eevee.

I think a lot of people have gained town reads on me which is going to get me killed tonight (although Ashersky might have just kept me alive by indicating even the smallest desire to lynch me), so I at least wanted to make this statement today.

[TheMunch]

Second thought: Lets pretend for 5 seconds that I am for sure town.  I dont like making the argument "Guys, I'm obvtown" but roll with me.  If I am town (I'm town) and Yuma is town (he's not town) then scum would LOVE to hammer the bejesus out of Yuma, because I would be such an easy target tomorrow and we lose.  So this means that if I am town (I'm town) then Yuma is almost certainly scum.

I guess in this hypothetical, you all watching at home should probably also look at the case where I am scum and Yuma is town.  I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader but I dont think it gets us anywhere other than Yuma is much more towny for me driving to kill him (see the case above).  I would love to hear responses from other players regarding the scenarios if I am scum because I dont think I have those cases nearly fleshed out as well as; I think either no conclusions can be drawn today without some flips or I am completely missing something.  Point is the paragraph above.  If I am town, then yuma is less likely to be town because he would be a great hammer for scum as town... Unless all the scum is already on Yumas wagon but I find that equally unlikely.

[yuma]

Munch: you have completely missed, or chosen to ignore, my theory, and I am willing to bet some serious Goko coin (no, not really, I don't have any Goko coin, but if I did, I would bet it) that this is what is happening. That scum was hoping that enough townies would be willing to lynch me so as to enable them to stay off my lynch wagon for the most part. At this point I don't think that all 3 scum are on my wagon. My bet is that scum expressed a town read on me to gain the necessary cred for tomorrow when I flipped town tomorrow. But in fact not enough townies were willing to vote for me. But the scum not voting for me had already expressed a town read on me and are not willing to go back on that because they will be a prime target tomorrow when I flip town. This is why I am voting Qvist. He seemed to be the most likely to fit this bill because he has provided the weakest reason for why I am town. Actually Frisk fits this bill as well. But his "style" has been more town to me.

From your perspective I don't know if this is more plausible then your "scum isn't willing to bus" theory.

But what I certainly dont' agree with is your assertion of "I am town, therefore yuma must be scum" (paraphrase obviously, but that is what your last post implied.) There is this nice happy world where we are both town, and I think that is the most likely of the four options. I am town, you are likely town. I wish there was someway that I could convince you of it beside getting lynched.

[yuma]

FOS Blitz Mafia 5, by the way, I have the day off today and am just bumming around at home while the wife has the car.

[jotheonah]

So there are four votes on Yuma and there have been four votes for a while.  Maybe Yuma even will come out from this with his life.  But I really think there has to be a reason why it is so hard to actually follow through and lynch Yuma.  I'm thinking that Yuma is scum with a team that is unwilling to bus/hammer for town cred.  They dont need town cred when town only has 1 mislynch; they need their scum alive to keep town in this precarious position.  I feel this way about Yuma more so and Eevee somewhat as I've seen his name thrown around a bunch as a possible lynch candidate yet still never gaining traction.  In general I feel like lynch should unilaterally be harder to lynch as we have to convince a larger percentage of a smaller amount of players that they are scum and this fits the bill with Yuma and Eevee.

I think a lot of people have gained town reads on me which is going to get me killed tonight (although Ashersky might have just kept me alive by indicating even the smallest desire to lynch me), so I at least wanted to make this statement today.

This makes a lot of sense. About why yuma's so hard to lynch. What are your thoughts about his VT claim, TheMunch?

[yuma]

So there are four votes on Yuma and there have been four votes for a while.  Maybe Yuma even will come out from this with his life.  But I really think there has to be a reason why it is so hard to actually follow through and lynch Yuma.  I'm thinking that Yuma is scum with a team that is unwilling to bus/hammer for town cred.  They dont need town cred when town only has 1 mislynch; they need their scum alive to keep town in this precarious position.  I feel this way about Yuma more so and Eevee somewhat as I've seen his name thrown around a bunch as a possible lynch candidate yet still never gaining traction.  In general I feel like lynch should unilaterally be harder to lynch as we have to convince a larger percentage of a smaller amount of players that they are scum and this fits the bill with Yuma and Eevee.

I think a lot of people have gained town reads on me which is going to get me killed tonight (although Ashersky might have just kept me alive by indicating even the smallest desire to lynch me), so I at least wanted to make this statement today.

This makes a lot of sense. About why yuma's so hard to lynch. What are your thoughts about his VT claim, TheMunch?

you have completely missed, or chosen to ignore, my theory, and I am willing to bet some serious Goko coin (no, not really, I don't have any Goko coin, but if I did, I would bet it) that this is what is happening. That scum was hoping that enough townies would be willing to lynch me so as to enable them to stay off my lynch wagon for the most part. At this point I don't think that all 3 scum are on my wagon. My bet is that scum expressed a town read on me to gain the necessary cred for tomorrow when I flipped town tomorrow. But in fact not enough townies were willing to vote for me. But the scum not voting for me had already expressed a town read on me and are not willing to go back on that because they will be a prime target tomorrow when I flip town.

This makes even more sense.

[jotheonah]

yuma, if you weren't you, which theory would strike you as more convoluted? I'm inclined to think yours.

[yuma]

yuma, if you weren't you, which theory would strike you as more convoluted? I'm inclined to think yours.

Good question:

So yours is basically that:
1. yuma is scum
2. his buddies won't buss
3. because if they do they lose their advantage over town
4. therefore 2 of the players not voting for yuma must be scum
5. so I am now stuck at only 4 votes and they are hoping a townie breaks ranks.
(note that there are some flaws here, for example, that I am town, and that there still are two townies not voting for me, why are they not voting for me?)

Mine is basically that:
1. a wagon formed on me
2. scum wanted to stay off it to get town cred
3. scum expressed a town read on me
4. and now can't go back on their read
5. so I am now stuck at only 4 votes and they are hoping a townie breaks ranks.

They actually look very similar to me, and interestingly enough come to the same conclusion. That people not voting for are more likely to be scum than those that are. I think the only difference is that in my scenario I see it most likely that there is 1 scum on the wagon and probably 2 off. Whereas you see it as I am scum and there are probably 2 off.

In summary: we have a better chance of finding and lynching scum if we vote for people currently off my wagon.

[Voltgloss]

Y'know whose thoughts on yuma I would really like to see at this point?  Frisk's.

Frisk has positioned himself as the deciding vote re: yuma.  The order of declarations was:

1. Volt makes case on yuma
2. Eevee rejects case
3. jotheonah agrees with case
4. ashersky agrees with case
5. TheMunch agrees with case (L-1); Eevee tells people to slow down
6. Captain_Frisk weighs both sides
7. Qvist rejects case
8. Axxle rejects case

I'm not asking Frisk to plop down a vote and hammer, but I would like to know how (if at all) his reads on yuma have changed since he last considered the case on yuma.  (If this is already in a previous post and I missed it, I apologize.)

When's our deadline?

[Voltgloss]

Deadline is Monday.  OK.  We have a little time, but not TOO much time given peoples' likely V/LA over the holiday weekend.

[Voltgloss]

yuma:  out of the people off your wagon (Eevee, Frisk, Qvist, Axxle), you have expressed the most suspicion of Qvist.  What are your thoughts on Eevee and Axxle?  Am I right to assume that you suspect Frisk the least?  (because he, IIRC, hasn't expressed so much of a townread on you that he can't reasonably go back and vote you)

[yuma]

yuma:  out of the people off your wagon (Eevee, Frisk, Qvist, Axxle), you have expressed the most suspicion of Qvist.  What are your thoughts on Eevee and Axxle?  Am I right to assume that you suspect Frisk the least?  (because he, IIRC, hasn't expressed so much of a townread on you that he can't reasonably go back and vote you)

Axxle is my most town read... Qvist and Frisk are more scum read... eevee is middle

[TheMunch]

So there are four votes on Yuma and there have been four votes for a while.  Maybe Yuma even will come out from this with his life.  But I really think there has to be a reason why it is so hard to actually follow through and lynch Yuma.  I'm thinking that Yuma is scum with a team that is unwilling to bus/hammer for town cred.  They dont need town cred when town only has 1 mislynch; they need their scum alive to keep town in this precarious position.  I feel this way about Yuma more so and Eevee somewhat as I've seen his name thrown around a bunch as a possible lynch candidate yet still never gaining traction.  In general I feel like lynch should unilaterally be harder to lynch as we have to convince a larger percentage of a smaller amount of players that they are scum and this fits the bill with Yuma and Eevee.

I think a lot of people have gained town reads on me which is going to get me killed tonight (although Ashersky might have just kept me alive by indicating even the smallest desire to lynch me), so I at least wanted to make this statement today.

This makes a lot of sense. About why yuma's so hard to lynch. What are your thoughts about his VT claim, TheMunch?

I dont like claims.  I think they are only interesting/useful with situations like the now over MXIII.  You got 2 guys claiming cop, one has to be lying.  Lot to be gained from that.  Yuma claiming VT is worth 0.

Watch:
Hey guys, I'm VT.

Its very easy to say.  It is impossible to know whether or not its true.  Someone cant counterclaim VT...

[jotheonah]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

[Voltgloss]

yuma:  out of the people off your wagon (Eevee, Frisk, Qvist, Axxle), you have expressed the most suspicion of Qvist.  What are your thoughts on Eevee and Axxle?  Am I right to assume that you suspect Frisk the least?  (because he, IIRC, hasn't expressed so much of a townread on you that he can't reasonably go back and vote you)

Axxle is my most town read... Qvist and Frisk are more scum read... eevee is middle

Interesting.

[TheMunch]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

Why claim PR's when all PR's are shut down anyway.  I dont think its in scums best interest to be trying to out PRs though.  They need mislynches.  The PR's only really need to be dying if they start dying so self preservation is paramount.  I could see POSSIBLY as scum claiming the PR of your switch which outs the PR you control and gets them NK.  This leads me to believe Yuma is the Vig Switch and has no need to claim anything but VT.

[TheMunch]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

Why claim PR's when all PR's are shut down anyway.  I dont think its in scums best interest to be trying to out PRs though.  They need mislynches.  The PR's only really need to be dying if they scum start dying so self preservation is paramount.  I could see POSSIBLY as scum claiming the PR of your switch which outs the PR you control and gets them NK.  This leads me to believe Yuma is the Vig Switch and has no need to claim anything but VT.

edit for clarity.

[jotheonah]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

Why claim PR's when all PR's are shut down anyway.  I dont think its in scums best interest to be trying to out PRs though.  They need mislynches.  The PR's only really need to be dying if they start dying so self preservation is paramount.  I could see POSSIBLY as scum claiming the PR of your switch which outs the PR you control and gets them NK.  This leads me to believe Yuma is the Vig Switch and has no need to claim anything but VT.

This is a good point. Sort of forgot about the switches for a sec. there.

[Captain_Frisk]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

Why claim PR's when all PR's are shut down anyway.  I dont think its in scums best interest to be trying to out PRs though.  They need mislynches.  The PR's only really need to be dying if they start dying so self preservation is paramount.  I could see POSSIBLY as scum claiming the PR of your switch which outs the PR you control and gets them NK.  This leads me to believe Yuma is the Vig Switch and has no need to claim anything but VT.

This is a good point. Sort of forgot about the switches for a sec. there.

Even with the switches off, the PRs have a role as named townies...

ie - you can claim at L-1 and not get lynched.  Unless you're counterclaimed, in which case we at least have our suspect pool narrowed to 2.

[TheMunch]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

Why claim PR's when all PR's are shut down anyway.  I dont think its in scums best interest to be trying to out PRs though.  They need mislynches.  The PR's only really need to be dying if they start dying so self preservation is paramount.  I could see POSSIBLY as scum claiming the PR of your switch which outs the PR you control and gets them NK.  This leads me to believe Yuma is the Vig Switch and has no need to claim anything but VT.

This is a good point. Sort of forgot about the switches for a sec. there.

Even with the switches off, the PRs have a role as named townies...

ie - you can claim at L-1 and not get lynched.  Unless you're counterclaimed, in which case we at least have our suspect pool narrowed to 2.

I'm also kind of saying as glorified VTs, why should claiming any of VT/Cop/Doc inherently save you?  All of these roles became unverifiable the second all the switches got turned off.  There is no reason to counterclaim.

[jotheonah]

Well, except that if we lynch any scum but the vig switch we can get a power role back.

[Qvist]

Some good points are made in the last couple of posts.

Let's do some analysis. Let's assume yuma is town.
Then I don't think there are 0 or 1 scum currently voting for yuma. The second scum can hammer him without problems.
2 scum could currently vote for yuma, but this makes still little sense because after lynching yuma and another townie kill at night, there are 4 townies against 3 scums with us basically having no PRs. That's basically a win for Mafia. The only guess what makes sense is that there are currently all 3 Mafia guys voting for yuma and waiting for someone to hammer him which makes that person look scummy.

Now let's assume yuma is Mafia.
If a scum buddy would still vote for him, that would be really risky, so the probability is high that both 2 Mafia players are the among the ones not voting for him.

Conclusion:
yuma can't be town if CF and Eevee (my current scum picks) are scum. So, unvote.
I now either believe in my CF and Eevee reads and then I should vote for yuma.
Or I should still trust my yuma read and should vote for one of Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky.

I have to think about that.

[Captain_Frisk]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

Why claim PR's when all PR's are shut down anyway.  I dont think its in scums best interest to be trying to out PRs though.  They need mislynches.  The PR's only really need to be dying if they start dying so self preservation is paramount.  I could see POSSIBLY as scum claiming the PR of your switch which outs the PR you control and gets them NK.  This leads me to believe Yuma is the Vig Switch and has no need to claim anything but VT.

This is a good point. Sort of forgot about the switches for a sec. there.

Even with the switches off, the PRs have a role as named townies...

ie - you can claim at L-1 and not get lynched.  Unless you're counterclaimed, in which case we at least have our suspect pool narrowed to 2.

I'm also kind of saying as glorified VTs, why should claiming any of VT/Cop/Doc inherently save you?  All of these roles became unverifiable the second all the switches got turned off.  There is no reason to counterclaim.

The munch... lets say you get me to L-1.

I claim that I'm the Cop.  [Disclaimer - NOT CLAIMING THAT I'M THE COP]

If no-one counter claims - then i must be the cop, right?  Even if I'm 100% useless, you still shouldn't lynch me because i'm effectively an innocent child. 

Anyone who claims will undoubtedly be night killed, but at least we don't mislynch.

[yuma]

But Scum that's fingered anyway may as well claim a PR, right. Either it buys them another day or it outs a real PR. So the question is, why didn't scum!yuma do that?

Why claim PR's when all PR's are shut down anyway.  I dont think its in scums best interest to be trying to out PRs though.  They need mislynches.  The PR's only really need to be dying if they start dying so self preservation is paramount.  I could see POSSIBLY as scum claiming the PR of your switch which outs the PR you control and gets them NK.  This leads me to believe Yuma is the Vig Switch and has no need to claim anything but VT.

It doesn't matter! I am a VT so when I asked people if I should claim and they said yes, I said VT. End of story, done. Gah!

[TheMunch]

Well, except that if we lynch any scum but the vig switch we can get a power role back.

This is precisely why if you are a true town power role you should keep your mouth SHUT!

[yuma]

Let's do some analysis. Let's assume yuma is town.
Then I don't think there are 0 or 1 scum currently voting for yuma. The second scum can hammer him without problems.

It is a problem if they already expressed a town read on me. They would be an easy target tomorrow after I flip town.

2 scum could currently vote for yuma, but this makes still little sense because after lynching yuma and another townie kill at night, there are 4 townies against 3 scums with us basically having no PRs. That's basically a win for Mafia. The only guess what makes sense is that there are currently all 3 Mafia guys voting for yuma and waiting for someone to hammer him which makes that person look scummy.

I think it pretty highly likely that all three scum are on my wagon and that it took off that fast. 2 maybe, but I think 1 is the most likely number

Conclusion:
yuma can't be town if CF and Eevee (my current scum picks) are scum. So, unvote.

This conclusion makes no sense.

I now either believe in my CF and Eevee reads and then I should vote for yuma.
Or I should still trust my yuma read and should vote for one of Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky.

Here comes the flip that I didn't expect scum to make, but Qvist is doing a valiant job in trying to rationalize it. This solidifies my read on Qvist and will continue to vote for him.

I have to think about that.

[yuma]

sorry messed up on quotes

Let's do some analysis. Let's assume yuma is town.
Then I don't think there are 0 or 1 scum currently voting for yuma. The second scum can hammer him without problems.

It is a problem if they already expressed a town read on me. They would be an easy target tomorrow after I flip town.

2 scum could currently vote for yuma, but this makes still little sense because after lynching yuma and another townie kill at night, there are 4 townies against 3 scums with us basically having no PRs. That's basically a win for Mafia. The only guess what makes sense is that there are currently all 3 Mafia guys voting for yuma and waiting for someone to hammer him which makes that person look scummy.

I think it pretty highly likely that all three scum are on my wagon and that it took off that fast. 2 maybe, but I think 1 is the most likely number[/quote]

Conclusion:
yuma can't be town if CF and Eevee (my current scum picks) are scum. So, unvote.

This conclusion makes no sense.

I now either believe in my CF and Eevee reads and then I should vote for yuma.
Or I should still trust my yuma read and should vote for one of Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky.

Here comes the flip that I didn't expect scum to make, but Qvist is doing a valiant job in trying to rationalize it. This solidifies my read on Qvist and will continue to vote for him.

[Voltgloss]

2 scum could currently vote for yuma, but this makes still little sense because after lynching yuma and another townie kill at night, there are 4 townies against 3 scums with us basically having no PRs. That's basically a win for Mafia. The only guess what makes sense is that there are currently all 3 Mafia guys voting for yuma and waiting for someone to hammer him which makes that person look scummy.

I think it pretty highly likely that all three scum are on my wagon and that it took off that fast. 2 maybe, but I think 1 is the most likely number

yuma, did you mean to type "unlikely" at the bolded spot above?

[Qvist]

Conclusion:
yuma can't be town if CF and Eevee (my current scum picks) are scum. So, unvote.

This conclusion makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense. I always said that CF and Eevee are looking scummy for me. And you always looked townish to me.
But if that's true, then explain me why one of those two don't hammer you!?

[yuma]

2 scum could currently vote for yuma, but this makes still little sense because after lynching yuma and another townie kill at night, there are 4 townies against 3 scums with us basically having no PRs. That's basically a win for Mafia. The only guess what makes sense is that there are currently all 3 Mafia guys voting for yuma and waiting for someone to hammer him which makes that person look scummy.

I think it pretty highly likely that all three scum are on my wagon and that it took off that fast. 2 maybe, but I think 1 is the most likely number

yuma, did you mean to type "unlikely" at the bolded spot above?

yes, unlikely is the appropriate word here

[yuma]

Conclusion:
yuma can't be town if CF and Eevee (my current scum picks) are scum. So, unvote.

This conclusion makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense. I always said that CF and Eevee are looking scummy for me. And you always looked townish to me.
But if that's true, then explain me why one of those two don't hammer you!?

Because they, if scum and I town, know that they will become a prime target for lynch tomorrow after I flip town. I have stated this so many times before. Scum wanted my wagon to be full of mostly town (maybe 1 scum on it) and expressed town reads on me to get cred. And now they can't vote for me because they would have to go back on their former read, just like you are doing.

Why dont' you hammer me?

[Qvist]

Conclusion:
yuma can't be town if CF and Eevee (my current scum picks) are scum. So, unvote.

This conclusion makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense. I always said that CF and Eevee are looking scummy for me. And you always looked townish to me.
But if that's true, then explain me why one of those two don't hammer you!?

Because they, if scum and I town, know that they will become a prime target for lynch tomorrow after I flip town. I have stated this so many times before. Scum wanted my wagon to be full of mostly town (maybe 1 scum on it) and expressed town reads on me to get cred. And now they can't vote for me because they would have to go back on their former read, just like you are doing.

Why dont' you hammer me?

And what's the deal if they would be prime target for the kill? They still probably would have won with 3 scum against 4 townies with no power roles. Yeah, we might get the PR back, but the chances for winning are pretty slim.

I would hammer you if I were scum and you are town, you can be sure.

And I didn't changed my mind yet. I only realised that a scum team of CF, Eevee and a third person (who is not you) is unlikely.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right folks

1. Captain_Frisk - I'm town.
2. jotheonah
4. Eevee
5. Voltgloss
6. Axxle
8. yuma - I'm going to gamble that he is town.  I would have claimed a PR as scum.
10. ashersky
11. QVist - aggressive tunnelling on me is unlikely as a new scum player
12. TheMunch - bad theory is unlikely to be scum

This leaves the scum team as 3 out of {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

If we can just eliminate one person out of that set, we can lynch the rest in order and win the game, because we have 1 mislynch.

[Eevee]

Vote: ashersky then?

I like your like of thinking Frisk, and basically only disagree on Qvist.

[yuma]

Conclusion:
yuma can't be town if CF and Eevee (my current scum picks) are scum. So, unvote.

This conclusion makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense. I always said that CF and Eevee are looking scummy for me. And you always looked townish to me.
But if that's true, then explain me why one of those two don't hammer you!?

Because they, if scum and I town, know that they will become a prime target for lynch tomorrow after I flip town. I have stated this so many times before. Scum wanted my wagon to be full of mostly town (maybe 1 scum on it) and expressed town reads on me to get cred. And now they can't vote for me because they would have to go back on their former read, just like you are doing.

Why dont' you hammer me?

And what's the deal if they would be prime target for the kill? They still probably would have won with 3 scum against 4 townies with no power roles. Yeah, we might get the PR back, but the chances for winning are pretty slim.

I would hammer you if I were scum and you are town, you can be sure.

And I didn't changed my mind yet. I only realised that a scum team of CF, Eevee and a third person (who is not you) is unlikely.

Little story for you:

In M3 I was mafia with eevee and voltgloss. In day 3 we were in great shape. It was 3 scum against 5 townies. We mislynched Morgrim with all 3 scum on the wagon. We thought we had the win in the bag. But our night kill was blocked and then in 3 subsquent days each of us were lynched while our night kill was blocked. And we lost the game.

Crazy things happen in mafia, and if there is one thing mafia can't be is too overconfident. A lynch of a mafia player tomorrow could very easily open up the floodgates and allow a town win. A Power Role would be back, there would be analysis of comparing the scum to other players, there would be who had voted for that scum and who that scum had voted for. Scum does not want to get lynched tomorrow. They want to cruise to victory with a mislynch today and a mislynch tomorrow.

[Eevee]

Not ready to gamble the game on you being town (trademark blitz), but like your iniative of going after people I suspect to be mafia instead of yuma who I think is town. And you are one of my townier reads (right behind yuma and munch), so that's good too.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: ashersky then?

I like your like of thinking Frisk, and basically only disagree on Qvist.

No.  if you disagree with qvist, then my argument is shot.  Also, we can't just start lynching until we figure out who we think is town in that set.

[Qvist]

Thanks for the background story, but this time the kill can't be blocked unless the Mafia Doctor Switch dies.
Or do I miss something?

[yuma]

All right folks

1. Captain_Frisk - I'm town.
2. jotheonah
4. Eevee
5. Voltgloss
6. Axxle
8. yuma - I'm going to gamble that he is town.  I would have claimed a PR as scum.
10. ashersky
11. QVist - aggressive tunnelling on me is unlikely as a new scum player
12. TheMunch - bad theory is unlikely to be scum

This leaves the scum team as 3 out of {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

If we can just eliminate one person out of that set, we can lynch the rest in order and win the game, because we have 1 mislynch.

the most town in that set are volt and axxle (axxle coming in first), but I am not convinced that you are town obviously, although I appreciate the read on me.

[Voltgloss]

Axxle, what are your thoughts on yuma's VT claim and the discussion since then?

[yuma]

Thanks for the background story, but this time the kill can't be blocked unless the Mafia Doctor Switch dies.
Or do I miss something?

scum can't perform kill and switch at the same time.... so say the mafia vig switch dies. That means either the cop or doc switch can't switch if they want to perform the kill.

[Qvist]

Thanks for the background story, but this time the kill can't be blocked unless the Mafia Doctor Switch dies.
Or do I miss something?

scum can't perform kill and switch at the same time.... so say the mafia vig switch dies. That means either the cop or doc switch can't switch if they want to perform the kill.

Ah, right. I forgot about that. That makes sense.

[Eevee]

Oh yuma, just thinking about the end of III is painfuul. We were doing so well!

[Axxle]

Axxle, what are your thoughts on yuma's VT claim and the discussion since then?

still think he's town and am increasingly certain that there is a substantial scum presence on the wagon.  Could be deluded town but I think most players aren't.
unvote

I'll reread.

[jotheonah]

I'm torn between being less sure yuma is scum (because of the VT claim and the general feel of his posts) and feeling really dumb if I abandon the yuma wagon and then it turns out he IS scum. Because, guys, do you remember scum yuma? He's sneaky as hell.

[jotheonah]

Like, I had a Mod's eye view of MV, and yuma snuck right through that game without ever being suspected.

[TheMunch]

In M3 I was mafia with eevee and voltgloss. In day 3 we were in great shape. It was 3 scum against 5 townies. We mislynched Morgrim with all 3 scum on the wagon. We thought we had the win in the bag. But our night kill was blocked and then in 3 subsquent days each of us were lynched while our night kill was blocked. And we lost the game.

Crazy things happen in mafia, and if there is one thing mafia can't be is too overconfident. A lynch of a mafia player tomorrow could very easily open up the floodgates and allow a town win. A Power Role would be back, there would be analysis of comparing the scum to other players, there would be who had voted for that scum and who that scum had voted for. Scum does not want to get lynched tomorrow. They want to cruise to victory with a mislynch today and a mislynch tomorrow.

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town is the cause). 

What I dont like about this post from Yuma is that he came up with his (imo less likely) scenario where the people that have built up town reads on yuma are scum and saying that my scenario is less likely yet acknowledges that it is the winning scenario for scum in this post.  Yuma's initial proposition of the "people built town reads on yuma" was this post:

Munch: you have completely missed, or chosen to ignore, my theory, and I am willing to bet some serious Goko coin (no, not really, I don't have any Goko coin, but if I did, I would bet it) that this is what is happening. That scum was hoping that enough townies would be willing to lynch me so as to enable them to stay off my lynch wagon for the most part. At this point I don't think that all 3 scum are on my wagon. My bet is that scum expressed a town read on me to gain the necessary cred for tomorrow when I flipped town tomorrow. But in fact not enough townies were willing to vote for me. But the scum not voting for me had already expressed a town read on me and are not willing to go back on that because they will be a prime target tomorrow when I flip town. This is why I am voting Qvist. He seemed to be the most likely to fit this bill because he has provided the weakest reason for why I am town. Actually Frisk fits this bill as well. But his "style" has been more town to me.

Ending with this line:

I wish there was someway that I could convince you of it beside getting lynched.

I think the way that yuma could have convinced me that yuma was town without getting lynched was to actually follow through with the case that he proposed.  He claimed that this situation was much more likely yet never followed through with the scumhunt.  If scum consist of the people who have town reads on yuma (and there aren't many; I know of at least 4 people who dont have scum reads on you) then why hasn't Yuma actually going after the people that have town reads on him?

[TheMunch]

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town scum is the cause). 

That was a bad typo..

[yuma]

I AM VOTING QVIST! pay attention!

[Captain_Frisk]

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town scum is the cause). 

That was a bad typo..

I may need to take you off my "townie" list.

[yuma]

and you are not understanding what I am trying to say.

Let me try again.... scum didn't want to all be on my wagon come after my flip of town and being mislynched.

So instead they expressed town reads on me, and wanted townies to lynch me instead. But now they don't have enough townies to get a lynch on me, but are hesitant to vote for me because that would make that person--not you munch, you have enough town reads now that you are more likely to be the NK then the lynch tomorrow--the lynch tomorrow resulting in a scum lynch tomorrow.

Am I making any sense or are you really not getting what I am trying to say.

everytime I post you dont' understand it? Is it me, or is it you?

[TheMunch]

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town scum is the cause). 

That was a bad typo..

I may need to take you off my "townie" list.

Aww, c'mon.  Typos = scumslip now?

I AM VOTING QVIST! pay attention!

You are spending too much time being defensive and less time driving cases.

[TheMunch]

and you are not understanding what I am trying to say.

Let me try again.... scum didn't want to all be on my wagon come after my flip of town and being mislynched.

So instead they expressed town reads on me, and wanted townies to lynch me instead. But now they don't have enough townies to get a lynch on me, but are hesitant to vote for me because that would make that person--not you munch, you have enough town reads now that you are more likely to be the NK then the lynch tomorrow--the lynch tomorrow resulting in a scum lynch tomorrow.

Am I making any sense or are you really not getting what I am trying to say.

everytime I post you dont' understand it? Is it me, or is it you?

My town reads are going to evaporate if you flip town.

[yuma]

and you are spending too much time tunneling and not looking elsewhere.

[TheMunch]

and you are not understanding what I am trying to say.

Let me try again.... scum didn't want to all be on my wagon come after my flip of town and being mislynched.

So instead they expressed town reads on me, and wanted townies to lynch me instead. But now they don't have enough townies to get a lynch on me, but are hesitant to vote for me because that would make that person--not you munch, you have enough town reads now that you are more likely to be the NK then the lynch tomorrow--the lynch tomorrow resulting in a scum lynch tomorrow.

Am I making any sense or are you really not getting what I am trying to say.

everytime I post you dont' understand it? Is it me, or is it you?

My town reads are going to evaporate if you flip town.

*Town reads on me

[yuma]

and you are not understanding what I am trying to say.

Let me try again.... scum didn't want to all be on my wagon come after my flip of town and being mislynched.

So instead they expressed town reads on me, and wanted townies to lynch me instead. But now they don't have enough townies to get a lynch on me, but are hesitant to vote for me because that would make that person--not you munch, you have enough town reads now that you are more likely to be the NK then the lynch tomorrow--the lynch tomorrow resulting in a scum lynch tomorrow.

Am I making any sense or are you really not getting what I am trying to say.

everytime I post you dont' understand it? Is it me, or is it you?

My town reads are going to evaporate if you flip town.

*Town reads on me

How?

I mean really... at this point for me to get lynched it would require Eevee, Qvist, Frisk or Axxle to drastically change their opinion on me and hammer me. Who would be scummier. Someone who had a read and stuck with it or someone who was wishywashy and then changed it?

To me the obvious answer is the wishywashy person. And that is why I am voting Qvist and wouldn't be at all surprised to see him hammer me.

[Captain_Frisk]

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town scum is the cause). 

That was a bad typo..

I may need to take you off my "townie" list.

Aww, c'mon.  Typos = scumslip now?

Did you read M8?

I said at one point: "I have a 0% chance of flipping town"

[Eevee]

yuma, I think your hypothesis is very sensible, and the opposite some people are proposing is at least as convoluted if not more.


Frisk, how? I haven't seen qvist's tunneling on you as a towny thing, how does that make everything we agree on completely null?


Everyone, I'd like to hear your take on ashersky. Would you vote for him and why?

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, how? I haven't seen qvist's tunneling on you as a towny thing, how does that make everything we agree on completely null?

If you add an extra townie into the mix, then we're getting further and further away from "lynch them all and win"

[TheMunch]

Vote: ashersky then?

I like your like of thinking Frisk, and basically only disagree on Qvist.

No.  if you disagree with qvist, then my argument is shot.  Also, we can't just start lynching until we figure out who we think is town in that set.

Just reread this.  Looks real scummy for Eevee: 
-CF proposes 5 people of which he thinks 3 are scum and that if he is correct and we can absolve one of that list, lynching the other 4 would win the game.
-Eevee reiterates that he thinks that Qvist (not on CFs list) is scum (had voted for Qvist for a similar reason to Yumas argument; "town reads for no reason are scummy" [I think here it is worth noting that earlier Eevee was expressing a lot of opinions on gut and is now saying this is a scum trait])
-Having said this, Eevee agrees to go along with CF's plan.  If he thinks that Qvist is scum then, while he might agree that a plan based on a certain premise is sound, it would be a bad idea to just start killing off CF's short list.  Also he was comfortable going ahead with killing off CF's short list before one player was removed from it (which was a necessary condition for the plan ending in a town win).

PPE: this is relevent to CF and Eevee's back and forth

[yuma]

yuma, I think your hypothesis is very sensible, and the opposite some people are proposing is at least as convoluted if not more.


Frisk, how? I haven't seen qvist's tunneling on you as a towny thing, how does that make everything we agree on completely null?


Everyone, I'd like to hear your take on ashersky. Would you vote for him and why?

I have been suspicious of him all game. I felt that his early game votes were forced and lack credibility, in all reality were probably an attempt to get on a wagon early.

Since then he has been very lurky. Not adding much to the conversation at all.

I would be very willing to vote for him and have in the past. I think I still prefer Qvist at this moment, especially after my back and forth on him and his preparation and postulation in what looks like a movement toward voting for me.

[TheMunch]

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town scum is the cause). 

That was a bad typo..

I may need to take you off my "townie" list.

Aww, c'mon.  Typos = scumslip now?

Did you read M8?

I said at one point: "I have a 0% chance of flipping town"

Naw I dont read old games.  However, I think the typo is more excusable as it followed a very hypothetical argument where Yuma is town.  Its easy to make that typo when I had hypothetically stated Yuma was town a half dozen times.

[Captain_Frisk]

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town scum is the cause). 

That was a bad typo..

I may need to take you off my "townie" list.

Aww, c'mon.  Typos = scumslip now?

Did you read M8?

I said at one point: "I have a 0% chance of flipping town"

Naw I dont read old games.  However, I think the typo is more excusable as it followed a very hypothetical argument where Yuma is town.  Its easy to make that typo when I had hypothetically stated Yuma was town a half dozen times.

Or you know Yuma is town?

[Eevee]

Frisk, how? I haven't seen qvist's tunneling on you as a towny thing, how does that make everything we agree on completely null?

If you add an extra townie into the mix, then we're getting further and further away from "lynch them all and win"

Lol, I know myself to be town, so I'd obviously switch qvist and myself. and it's not like we have to pick all our subsequent lunch targets now, just hitting one mafia is sufficient.
more info to make good decisions again tomorrow.

[TheMunch]

Isn't this precisely the situation I outlined?  If I am town and Yuma is town, it would be pretty easy to have cruised to a victory with a mislynch today (hammer yuma) and a mislynch tomorrow (lynch me for pushing town yuma so hard).  This didn't happen (and I think Yuma being town scum is the cause). 

That was a bad typo..

I may need to take you off my "townie" list.

Aww, c'mon.  Typos = scumslip now?

Did you read M8?

I said at one point: "I have a 0% chance of flipping town"

Naw I dont read old games.  However, I think the typo is more excusable as it followed a very hypothetical argument where Yuma is town.  Its easy to make that typo when I had hypothetically stated Yuma was town a half dozen times.

Or you know Yuma is town?

What do you think of my actual case though?  You had pointed out earlier on your list that I have bad theory but I dont really see what is off by the case that I am proposing. 

[Axxle]

I have a 0% chance of flipping town

Welp.

[Axxle]

yuma, I think your hypothesis is very sensible, and the opposite some people are proposing is at least as convoluted if not more.


Frisk, how? I haven't seen qvist's tunneling on you as a towny thing, how does that make everything we agree on completely null?


Everyone, I'd like to hear your take on ashersky. Would you vote for him and why?

Can you start with an explanation of why you're voting for ashersky?

[jotheonah]

Possible theory: Scum yuma has identified Qvist as the most likely town to hammer him, so he's trying to shame him out of it by planting the idea in all of our heads that whoever hammers him must be scum.

[Axxle]

Since then he has been very lurky. Not adding much to the conversation at all.

As a hydra partner to Eevee, I can verify this is also a his town behavior.  I don't recall his scum behavior though so it could be a null tell.

[jotheonah]

Yeah, we really haven't seen ashersky in a long time.

[Voltgloss]

Since then he has been very lurky. Not adding much to the conversation at all.

As a hydra partner to Eevee, I can verify this is also a his town behavior.  I don't recall his scum behavior though so it could be a null tell.

Axxle, yuma was talking about ashersky there.  Not Eevee.

And I am frankly inclined to agree with him.

[jotheonah]

I think an ashersky lurker lynch would acceptable to me in and of itself. But the fact that it's been pushed heavily by my top two scumspects, yuma and Eevee, means that it's either a bad idea or I've been way off-base all along. (Which I admit is more than possible).

[Voltgloss]

I feel like it would be helpful to have a Day 2 chronology of who everyone has (1) voted for and (2) announced suspicion of but haven't voted.  I don't have time to prepare that atm, but maybe someone else does?  If not I'll try to get to it when I can - I can't guarantee when that will be though.

I think an ashersky lurker lynch would acceptable to me in and of itself. But the fact that it's been pushed heavily by my top two scumspects, yuma and Eevee, means that it's either a bad idea or I've been way off-base all along. (Which I admit is more than possible).

I am of a similar mindset, jo.

[Eevee]

yuma, I think your hypothesis is very sensible, and the opposite some people are proposing is at least as convoluted if not more.


Frisk, how? I haven't seen qvist's tunneling on you as a towny thing, how does that make everything we agree on completely null?


Everyone, I'd like to hear your take on ashersky. Would you vote for him and why?

Can you start with an explanation of why you're voting for ashersky?

Because he is scummy. Lurking, not taking positions. Basically, I think he is scum waiting on town to mislynch yuma. In a situation like this, I would expect scum to stay in the sidelines.

[TheMunch]

I feel like it would be helpful to have a Day 2 chronology of who everyone has (1) voted for and (2) announced suspicion of but haven't voted.  I don't have time to prepare that atm, but maybe someone else does?  If not I'll try to get to it when I can - I can't guarantee when that will be though.

I think an ashersky lurker lynch would acceptable to me in and of itself. But the fact that it's been pushed heavily by my top two scumspects, yuma and Eevee, means that it's either a bad idea or I've been way off-base all along. (Which I admit is more than possible).

I am of a similar mindset, jo.

Thirded.

[TheMunch]

Can we get an updated Votecount?  I know there hasn't been much change in a while but I know that at least Axxle unvoted and there hasn't been a votecount in a bit.

[yuma]

yuma, I think your hypothesis is very sensible, and the opposite some people are proposing is at least as convoluted if not more.

but the point of both is that looking for scum off my wagon has a high percentage of finding scum. This is the biggest reason I abandoned my ashersky vote and went elsewhere.

[Voltgloss]

This is unofficial, but I think correct:

Qvist (1) - yuma
yuma (4) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky
Eevee (1) - Captain_Frisk
ashersky (1) - Eevee

Not voting (2) - Qvist, Axxle

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

[Eevee]

Well this is unfortunate. I hate huuma lynch or my own lynch, and the alternatives I propose are being shot down because I'm the one proposing them. What can I do here?

[yuma]

Since then he has been very lurky. Not adding much to the conversation at all.

As a hydra partner to Eevee, I can verify this is also a his town behavior.  I don't recall his scum behavior though so it could be a null tell.

yeah, ash is who I am talking about... I would certainly not qualify eevee as lurky. He is constantly toward the top of the posters of late.

[Voltgloss]

but the point of both is that looking for scum off my wagon has a high percentage of finding scum. This is the biggest reason I abandoned my ashersky vote and went elsewhere.

yuma, you've hypothesized that there is 1 scum on your wagon, 2 off.  Who do you think is most likely to be that scum?  ashersky?

[yuma]

Well this is unfortunate. I hate huuma lynch or my own lynch, and the alternatives I propose are being shot down because I'm the one proposing them. What can I do here?

ditto most frustrating game ever...

[Eevee]

yuma, I think your hypothesis is very sensible, and the opposite some people are proposing is at least as convoluted if not more.

but the point of both is that looking for scum off my wagon has a high percentage of finding scum. This is the biggest reason I abandoned my ashersky vote and went elsewhere.

ashersky could very well be the second scum on the wagon (say after joth), and the third scum (say qvist) would then be expressing the town read on you in hopes of someone town-aligned hammering.

[yuma]

but the point of both is that looking for scum off my wagon has a high percentage of finding scum. This is the biggest reason I abandoned my ashersky vote and went elsewhere.

yuma, you've hypothesized that there is 1 scum on your wagon, 2 off.  Who do you think is most likely to be that scum?  ashersky?

Yes, ash. There could be 2 on 1 off as well. But just gut instinct and previous plays at scum and watching games where I knew the setup, that seems to be scum's goal for most lynches; 1 on, 2 off if they can.

[Voltgloss]

In fairness regarding the lurking issue:  ash has a significant timezone difference from most of us.

[Voltgloss]

Well this is unfortunate. I hate huuma lynch or my own lynch, and the alternatives I propose are being shot down because I'm the one proposing them. What can I do here?

ditto most frustrating game ever...

I don't actually think this is happening?  There are numerous people, including myself, expressing interest in an ashersky lynch.

[yuma]

In fairness regarding the lurking issue:  ash has a significant timezone difference from most of us.

this is true, and I know how frustrating it can be to not be online during this time and have the back and forth with everyone, but he just hasn't said much at all.... but was able to start up and keep up with Blitz 5. And there certainly has been a lot to talk about.

[Voltgloss]

In fairness regarding the lurking issue:  ash has a significant timezone difference from most of us.

this is true, and I know how frustrating it can be to not be online during this time and have the back and forth with everyone, but he just hasn't said much at all.... but was able to start up and keep up with Blitz 5. And there certainly has been a lot to talk about.

I don't disagree.

[jotheonah]

Well, my lunch break is over and I need to get off F.DS so I can write this stupid story. (Last day before Thanksgiving break = complete lack of work ethic).

If a yuma hammer isn't dropped when I get back (and I highly doubt it will be, for whatever reason) then I'll change my vote next time I come online. Either to Eevee or ashersky.

[yuma]

Well this is unfortunate. I hate huuma lynch or my own lynch, and the alternatives I propose are being shot down because I'm the one proposing them. What can I do here?

ditto most frustrating game ever...

I don't actually think this is happening?  There are numerous people, including myself, expressing interest in an ashersky lynch.

I think an ashersky lurker lynch would acceptable to me in and of itself. But the fact that it's been pushed heavily by my top two scumspects, yuma and Eevee, means that it's either a bad idea or I've been way off-base all along. (Which I admit is more than possible).

seconded by you and munch...

basically saying, we are ok with the ash lynch, but not if yuma and eevee join it or propose it.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well this is unfortunate. I hate huuma lynch or my own lynch, and the alternatives I propose are being shot down because I'm the one proposing them. What can I do here?

ditto most frustrating game ever...

I don't actually think this is happening?  There are numerous people, including myself, expressing interest in an ashersky lynch.

I think an ashersky lurker lynch would acceptable to me in and of itself. But the fact that it's been pushed heavily by my top two scumspects, yuma and Eevee, means that it's either a bad idea or I've been way off-base all along. (Which I admit is more than possible).

seconded by you and munch...

basically saying, we are ok with the ash lynch, but not if yuma and eevee join it or propose it.

My issue is with eevee.... i"m cool with you yuma.

[Eevee]

i dont even know why i'm suspected this much.

[Voltgloss]

This caught my eye earlier and I wanted to respond:

Like, I had a Mod's eye view of MV, and yuma snuck right through that game without ever being suspected.

This situation is kinda different.  As you say, yuma was never suspected in MV.  Here, he HAS been heavily suspected and under a lot of scrutiny.  The question is:  has yuma's play in this game been more akin to yuma's play when pressured as town, or yuma's play when pressured as scum?

For pressured-as-town yuma, I can think of (in my own personal experience) Ozle's Murder Mystery Mafia.  Are there other examples?

For pressured-as-scum yuma, I would suggest MIII, but that may not be a helpful example because the scumlynches there were driven by town power role use. 

What about MXIV?  Did yuma ever come under significant scrutiny there?

[TheMunch]

Well this is unfortunate. I hate huuma lynch or my own lynch, and the alternatives I propose are being shot down because I'm the one proposing them. What can I do here?

ditto most frustrating game ever...

Cause scum wont hammer scum.

[yuma]

This caught my eye earlier and I wanted to respond:

Like, I had a Mod's eye view of MV, and yuma snuck right through that game without ever being suspected.

This situation is kinda different.  As you say, yuma was never suspected in MV.  Here, he HAS been heavily suspected and under a lot of scrutiny.  The question is:  has yuma's play in this game been more akin to yuma's play when pressured as town, or yuma's play when pressured as scum?

For pressured-as-town yuma, I can think of (in my own personal experience) Ozle's Murder Mystery Mafia.  Are there other examples?

For pressured-as-scum yuma, I would suggest MIII, but that may not be a helpful example because the scumlynches there were driven by town power role use. 

What about MXIV?  Did yuma ever come under significant scrutiny there?

I had zero pressure in MXIV, but if you look at MVIII I came under some pretty heavy pressure... I was the town 2-shot vig and was pretty close to being lynched.

[TheMunch]

This caught my eye earlier and I wanted to respond:

Like, I had a Mod's eye view of MV, and yuma snuck right through that game without ever being suspected.

This situation is kinda different.  As you say, yuma was never suspected in MV.  Here, he HAS been heavily suspected and under a lot of scrutiny.  The question is:  has yuma's play in this game been more akin to yuma's play when pressured as town, or yuma's play when pressured as scum?

For pressured-as-town yuma, I can think of (in my own personal experience) Ozle's Murder Mystery Mafia.  Are there other examples?

For pressured-as-scum yuma, I would suggest MIII, but that may not be a helpful example because the scumlynches there were driven by town power role use. 

What about MXIV?  Did yuma ever come under significant scrutiny there?

I'm sad Yuma is still alive in MXI cause wasn't he under a lot of scrutiny early in that game as well?

[yuma]

This caught my eye earlier and I wanted to respond:

Like, I had a Mod's eye view of MV, and yuma snuck right through that game without ever being suspected.

This situation is kinda different.  As you say, yuma was never suspected in MV.  Here, he HAS been heavily suspected and under a lot of scrutiny.  The question is:  has yuma's play in this game been more akin to yuma's play when pressured as town, or yuma's play when pressured as scum?

For pressured-as-town yuma, I can think of (in my own personal experience) Ozle's Murder Mystery Mafia.  Are there other examples?

For pressured-as-scum yuma, I would suggest MIII, but that may not be a helpful example because the scumlynches there were driven by town power role use. 

What about MXIV?  Did yuma ever come under significant scrutiny there?

I'm sad Yuma is still alive in MXI cause wasn't he under a lot of scrutiny early in that game as well?

we don't talk about unfinished games...

[TheMunch]

This caught my eye earlier and I wanted to respond:

Like, I had a Mod's eye view of MV, and yuma snuck right through that game without ever being suspected.

This situation is kinda different.  As you say, yuma was never suspected in MV.  Here, he HAS been heavily suspected and under a lot of scrutiny.  The question is:  has yuma's play in this game been more akin to yuma's play when pressured as town, or yuma's play when pressured as scum?

For pressured-as-town yuma, I can think of (in my own personal experience) Ozle's Murder Mystery Mafia.  Are there other examples?

For pressured-as-scum yuma, I would suggest MIII, but that may not be a helpful example because the scumlynches there were driven by town power role use. 

What about MXIV?  Did yuma ever come under significant scrutiny there?

I'm sad Yuma is still alive in MXI cause wasn't he under a lot of scrutiny early in that game as well?

we don't talk about unfinished games...

Oh, Sorry.  I thought you could talk about dead players, which is why I commented on the fact that you were alive.  Didn't know.

[Axxle]

I was on ashersky a while back and he hasn't done anything town since then so I'd be ok with it.  The large amount of people ok with the lynch signal to me that it's a mislynch though.

[TheMunch]

I was on ashersky a while back and he hasn't done anything town since then so I'd be ok with it.  The large amount of people ok with the lynch signal to me that it's a mislynch though.

This.  It fits nicely with my "lynching scum is harder/slower" theory.

[Voltgloss]

I'm warming up to an ash lynch, but I want to tread carefully.  I still suspect you, yuma.  Less than before, but I still suspect you.  That's part of why I want a chronology of votes/suspicions:  I want to look over your history and assess whether it better fits town!yuma or scum!yuma.

That said, my suspicions of Eevee are decreasing.  The more I think about it, I'm having trouble seeing scum!Eevee coming so strongly, and so consistently, against my yuma-case right out of the gate.  Regardless of whether yuma is scum OR town.

ash, when you get here, I would appreciate a ranking of your scumreads, with reasons (something short will do, a line or two each).

PPE:

I was on ashersky a while back and he hasn't done anything town since then so I'd be ok with it.  The large amount of people ok with the lynch signal to me that it's a mislynch though.

Agreed with this last part, especially now that you've said you're ok with it.  No offense. 

[Axxle]

I was on ashersky a while back and he hasn't done anything town since then so I'd be ok with it.  The large amount of people ok with the lynch signal to me that it's a mislynch though.

This.  It fits nicely with my "lynching scum is harder/slower" theory.

lynching town is hard too.

It's lynching anti-town town that's easy to do.

[Eevee]

I was on ashersky a while back and he hasn't done anything town since then so I'd be ok with it.  The large amount of people ok with the lynch signal to me that it's a mislynch though.

How would you expect scum to react to my direct question? I dont find the reactions alarming at all.

[yuma]

I can work on this... so you want not only votes, but suspicions expressed?

And would you be confortable with me, one of your scum reads, working on it?

[TheMunch]

I can work on this... so you want not only votes, but suspicions expressed?

And would you be confortable with me, one of your scum reads, working on it?

Thanks for doing it if you do.  Just put in post numbers some someone unbiased can skim through and corroborate.  Maybe volt.

[Voltgloss]

I can work on this... so you want not only votes, but suspicions expressed?

And would you be confortable with me, one of your scum reads, working on it?

Yes, I'd be comfortable with that, as long as there are post numbers (as TheMunch suggested) so we can cross-reference.  Full quotes aren't necessary.  Thanks, yuma.

[yuma]

I can work on this... so you want not only votes, but suspicions expressed?

And would you be confortable with me, one of your scum reads, working on it?

Yes, I'd be comfortable with that, as long as there are post numbers (as TheMunch suggested) so we can cross-reference.  Full quotes aren't necessary.  Thanks, yuma.

K post numbers is hard, I typically do this sort of stuff on the print screen, but I guess I can try it a different way...

[Voltgloss]

K post numbers is hard, I typically do this sort of stuff on the print screen, but I guess I can try it a different way...

Oh, I never realized the printscreen didn't have post numbers.  Maybe date/timestamp then?  Just, some way everyone can track back to the posts in question.

[yuma]

Doing this by post #:

Qvist: 275 votes Frisk for being on ehunt wagon and galz wagon
Jot: 276 scummy vibe out of Qvist's post.
jot: 280 suspsicious of frisk for a mass claim suggestion
jot 284 votes Grujah/volt for lurking
Axxle 285 votes jot for his previous vote
ash 288 votes frisk for a "whoops I didn't know setup" mistake
yuma 290 votes ash, (actually voted Frisk, but it was a mistake that was correct later) for previous day behavior and for making a poor case
volt 297 votes yuma for his hammer

jot 312 votes yuma following volt's case
ash 313 votes yuma see above, still suspicious of frisk
munch 317 expresses suspicion of yuma, doesn't vote
munch 320 votes yuma see above and for not having shame
eevee 325 uneasy about yuma wagon
frisk 334 expresses a slight town feel on yuma, because hammering is a very aggressive play
qvist 350 says yuma look suspicious, but reads town. continues vote and suspicion of frisk
eevee 354 doesn't have solid reads, puts qvist and jot toward the top of scum
frisk 357 has player list and doesn't express reads, but instead gives information
munch 363 expresses an eevee suspicion in conjunction with yuma scum read as well as qvist
frisk 371 votes eevee w/o explanation
jot 394 expresses suspicion of eevee

yuma 401 expresses town read on munch
eevee 402 town read on munch and yuma; scum read on qvist, jot, axxle... oh and ash
eevee 412 votes jot for overly pushing yuma lynch
qvist 426 reads CF mafia; ash, eevee, munch as scummy; volt, jot and axxle null and yuma as town
ash 431 votes yuma because nothing has changed since he last unvoted and unvotes in 433
frisk 436 gives reads: eevee, ash, jot ( I think he has a vote on eevee at this point and keeps it) has yuma and munch town
jot 454 expresses scum read on eevee, again? I think.
axxle 474 votes ash for his vote/unvote earlier
axxle 482 scum reads on ash, jot, frisk and eevee; null on munch, volt, yuma town on qvist

qvist 504 votes eevee mostly for not wanting to lynch themunch
jot 516 has no opinion on ashersky
531 and 532 yuma and frisk vote volt for being slow to get case up
534 frisk expresses a slight suspicion of yuma for his volt vote
540 axxle votes frisk (actually accidentally voted voltgloss, but fixed it) for frisk's vote on volt
558 yuma votes ashersky after unvoting volt
559 ash votes yuma to put him back to L-1
578 qvist votes frisk for voting voltgloss
591 volt still suspicious of yuma, but less so with the claim; if yuma is town scum=ash, qvist, frisk; if yuma is scum, scum=axxle, eevee
598 frisk votes eevee after unvoting volt

601 eevee suspicious of: qvist, jot, ashersky
605 eevee votes qvist
611 yuma votes qvist after reading volt's "if yuma is town then..." analysis
615 qvist yuma looks town, but doens't provide a reason why; has scum feels on themunch, ash and jot; but very strong scum reads on eevee and frisk
619 ash says he is willing to vote for frisk and themunch but not eevee or voltgloss
633 yuma reads: of people off yuma wagon; axxle most town, qvist and frisk scum, eevee null
643 qvist unvotes frisk and begins to question read on yuma because he has scum reads on eevee and frisk
654 after being prompted by volt frisk gives his reads; yuma, qvist and munch are town for various reasons; scum is to be found in volt, jot, axxle, eevee, ash
655 eeveevotes ash
665 axxle unvotes, still has a town read on yuma and will reread
666 jot; torn on yuma read
681 munch continues to press an eevee scum read
693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma
694-5 volt and munch second above

710 jot: will vote elsewhere if yuma isn't lynched when he comes back
721 axxle: ok with ash lynch, but worried large amount on it
722 volt:warming to an ash lynch

I think that is it! Underlines are votes. I hope I caught everything, please let everyone know if you feel that I missed something or made a mistake. I tried to avoid doing anything that required me to interpret and just put what was stated.

[Captain_Frisk]

i dont even know why i'm suspected this much.

You're too nice? 

[Eevee]

i dont even know why i'm suspected this much.

You're too nice?

Because that's so inconsistent with my earlier behavior (town in 90% of the games)? I know how you feel about self meta arguments but you kind of drove me to this one.

Yuma's excellent summary didn't quite do justice to how strongly I've opposed his wagon, but
I guess that's pretty clear to everyone at this point anyways.

[yuma]

i dont even know why i'm suspected this much.

You're too nice?

Because that's so inconsistent with my earlier behavior (town in 90% of the games)? I know how you feel about self meta arguments but you kind of drove me to this one.

Yuma's excellent summary didn't quite do justice to how strongly I've opposed his wagon, but
I guess that's pretty clear to everyone at this point anyways.

yeah there were a lot of repeat reads, for instance themunch continually being suspicious of me. If there was a change in emphasis or a return to a read I tried to include it.

I also didn't do quite as much on non-suspicions as I did on suspicions.

[Voltgloss]

Thanks, yuma.  Here's the same data you just posted, but reorganized by player.  Analysis to follow separately.


Qvist: 275 votes Frisk for being on ehunt wagon and galz wagon
qvist 350 says yuma look suspicious, but reads town. continues vote and suspicion of frisk
qvist 426 reads CF mafia; ash, eevee, munch as scummy; volt, jot and axxle null and yuma as town
qvist 504 votes eevee mostly for not wanting to lynch themunch
578 qvist votes frisk for voting voltgloss
615 qvist yuma looks town, but doens't provide a reason why; has scum feels on themunch, ash and jot; but very strong scum reads on eevee and frisk
643 qvist unvotes frisk and begins to question read on yuma because he has scum reads on eevee and frisk

---

Jot: 276 scummy vibe out of Qvist's post.
jot: 280 suspsicious of frisk for a mass claim suggestion
jot 284 votes Grujah/volt for lurking
jot 312 votes yuma following volt's case
jot 394 expresses suspicion of eevee
jot 454 expresses scum read on eevee, again? I think.
jot 516 has no opinion on ashersky
666 jot; torn on yuma read
693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma
710 jot: will vote elsewhere if yuma isn't lynched when he comes back

---

Axxle 285 votes jot for his previous vote
axxle 474 votes ash for his vote/unvote earlier
axxle 482 scum reads on ash, jot, frisk and eevee; null on munch, volt, yuma town on qvist
540 axxle votes frisk (actually accidentally voted voltgloss, but fixed it) for frisk's vote on volt
665 axxle unvotes, still has a town read on yuma and will reread
721 axxle: ok with ash lynch, but worried large amount on it

---

ash 288 votes frisk for a "whoops I didn't know setup" mistake
ash 313 votes yuma see above, still suspicious of frisk
ash 431 votes yuma because nothing has changed since he last unvoted and unvotes in 433
559 ash votes yuma to put him back to L-1
619 ash says he is willing to vote for frisk and themunch but not eevee or voltgloss

---

yuma 290 votes ash, (actually voted Frisk, but it was a mistake that was correct later) for previous day behavior and for making a poor case
yuma 401 expresses town read on munch
531 and 532 yuma and frisk vote volt for being slow to get case up
558 yuma votes ashersky after unvoting volt
611 yuma votes qvist after reading volt's "if yuma is town then..." analysis
633 yuma reads: of people off yuma wagon; axxle most town, qvist and frisk scum, eevee null

---

volt 297 votes yuma for his hammer
591 volt still suspicious of yuma, but less so with the claim; if yuma is town scum=ash, qvist, frisk; if yuma is scum, scum=axxle, eevee
694-5 volt and munch second above  (joth's 693:  "693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma")
722 volt:warming to an ash lynch

---

munch 317 expresses suspicion of yuma, doesn't vote
munch 320 votes yuma see above and for not having shame
munch 363 expresses an eevee suspicion in conjunction with yuma scum read as well as qvist
681 munch continues to press an eevee scum read
694-5 volt and munch second above  (joth's 693:  "693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma")

---

eevee 325 uneasy about yuma wagon
eevee 354 doesn't have solid reads, puts qvist and jot toward the top of scum
eevee 402 town read on munch and yuma; scum read on qvist, jot, axxle... oh and ash
eevee 412 votes jot for overly pushing yuma lynch
601 eevee suspicious of: qvist, jot, ashersky
605 eevee votes qvist
655 eeveevotes ash

---

frisk 334 expresses a slight town feel on yuma, because hammering is a very aggressive play
frisk 357 has player list and doesn't express reads, but instead gives information
frisk 371 votes eevee w/o explanation
frisk 436 gives reads: eevee, ash, jot ( I think he has a vote on eevee at this point and keeps it) has yuma and munch town
531 and 532 yuma and frisk vote volt for being slow to get case up
534 frisk expresses a slight suspicion of yuma for his volt vote
598 frisk votes eevee after unvoting volt
654 after being prompted by volt frisk gives his reads; yuma, qvist and munch are town for various reasons; scum is to be found in volt, jot, axxle, eevee, ash

[yuma]

thanks, further breaking that info down:

Qvist:
suspicion of: themunch, eevee, frisk, ash, jot, yuma
voted for: eevee, frisk

jot:
suspicion of: qvist, frisk, grujah, yuma, eevee, ash
voted for: grujah, yuma

axxle:
suspicion of: jot, ash, frisk, eevee,
voted for: jot, ash, frisk

ash:
suspicion of: frisk, yuma, munch
voted for: frisk, yuma

yuma:
suspicion of: ash, voltgloss, qvist, frisk
voted for: ash, volt, qvist

volt:
suspicion of; yuma, (ash, qvist, frisk is yuma is town) (axxle, eevee if yuma is scum), ash
voted for: yuma

munch:
suspicion of: yuma, eevee, qvist, ash
voted for: yuma

eevee:
suspicion of: qvist, jot, axxle, ash
voted: jot, qvist, ash

frisk:
suspicion of: eevee, ash, jot, yuma, (scum to be found in jot, axxle, eevee, volt, ash)
voted for: eevee, volt

[Axxle]

I had some suspicion of munch, not a lot though.

[yuma]

Volt, what was it that you wanted to do with this information?

[ashersky]

I'm here now, and will be around most of the day, although that's night for most of you.

I see I get the lynch the lurker treatment yet again.  *sigh*

Sorry, I've just been mislynched a bunch lately.

Anyway, I've given reads, although they are a good number of pages back now.  I was on Frisk D1, continued on D2, and would still vote for him.  Throughout this latest yuma or alternates talk, I think he's been trying to lead town, especially with his "let's just lynch everyone on this list until we win" idea, which sounds an awful lot like something scum!Frisk would come up with to just auto-win for his scum team.  Imagine if we went with it...he just chose who he wanted.

My vote's still on yuma, and I think he's a good lynch for today.  There's been plenty of discussion, which people always required so they don't complain about derphammers (see hydras, where we continue to disagree).  When he flips scum, it'll tell us a lot, especially about those who bussed hard and/or tried to save him.  If he flips town, again, plenty of information, but I don't think this is the most likely scenario (probably 30%).

I had a town read on Eevee from before, but I see some folks have made some cases on him since.  I'm not convinced yet, and don't think he's the right lynch for today.  I continue to support my VG town read, and would put him right behind me on the towniness scale.

Qvist and TheMunch are both hard to read, because they're a bit forward in their style, Q is new, and I don't have a lot of games with Munch to really go off of.

[TheMunch]

I'm here now, and will be around most of the day, although that's night for most of you.

I see I get the lynch the lurker treatment yet again.  *sigh*

Sorry, I've just been mislynched a bunch lately.

This reads incredibly honest to me.  I retract all desire to vote ash, which was never very high.  I dont want to see frustrated Ashersky because if hes town, it can be very bad for town.  I would love to see Ash just be able to play calm and figure out if he is scum for good reasons, not just that he is a lurker.

[yuma]

I'm here now, and will be around most of the day, although that's night for most of you.

I see I get the lynch the lurker treatment yet again.  *sigh*

Sorry, I've just been mislynched a bunch lately.

This reads incredibly honest to me.  I retract all desire to vote ash, which was never very high.  I dont want to see frustrated Ashersky because if hes town, it can be very bad for town.  I would love to see Ash just be able to play calm and figure out if he is scum for good reasons, not just that he is a lurker.

for reals? *sigh* you are seriously joking right?

[yuma]

I'm here now, and will be around most of the day, although that's night for most of you.

I see I get the lynch the lurker treatment yet again.  *sigh*

Sorry, I've just been mislynched a bunch lately.

This reads incredibly honest to me.  I retract all desire to vote ash, which was never very high.  I dont want to see frustrated Ashersky because if hes town, it can be very bad for town.  I would love to see Ash just be able to play calm and figure out if he is scum for good reasons, not just that he is a lurker.

for reals? *sigh* you are seriously joking right?

he has completely dismissed that people have real cases on him and evidence and lumped all into "guess they are voting for me cause I lurk" sigh... that doesn't fly. Answer the accusations. address the issues.

[TheMunch]

I'm here now, and will be around most of the day, although that's night for most of you.

I see I get the lynch the lurker treatment yet again.  *sigh*

Sorry, I've just been mislynched a bunch lately.

This reads incredibly honest to me.  I retract all desire to vote ash, which was never very high.  I dont want to see frustrated Ashersky because if hes town, it can be very bad for town.  I would love to see Ash just be able to play calm and figure out if he is scum for good reasons, not just that he is a lurker.

for reals? *sigh* you are seriously joking right?

he has completely dismissed that people have real cases on him and evidence and lumped all into "guess they are voting for me cause I lurk" sigh... that doesn't fly. Answer the accusations. address the issues.
[/quote

I'm here now, and will be around most of the day, although that's night for most of you.

I see I get the lynch the lurker treatment yet again.  *sigh*

Sorry, I've just been mislynched a bunch lately.

This reads incredibly honest to me.  I retract all desire to vote ash, which was never very high.  I dont want to see frustrated Ashersky because if hes town, it can be very bad for town.  I would love to see Ash just be able to play calm and figure out if he is scum for good reasons, not just that he is a lurker.

[Voltgloss]

yuma, why do you have a townread on Axxle?

[TheMunch]

Can someone explain to me the case on Ashersky if it isn't for Lurking?  I "thirded" the post that Joth made where he said (paraphrasing) "I would be comfortable with a lurker lynch on Ash but I dont like that my 2 biggest scum reads are the ones pushing it."  I am behind lurker lynches; lurking is bad.  But the fact that Eevee and Yuma are the ones that were pushing it makes me very suspicious.  I could see scum very opportunistically taking advantage of a lurking town player.  I stand by my claim that I dont want to see frustrated ashersky because if he is town then it is TERRIBLE for town.  So initial question: What is the case on Ashersky if it isn't for lurking?

[yuma]

yuma, why do you have a townread on Axxle?

there have been a couple of things

- i think it was you that pointed out that mafia axxle would have been unlikely to lurk the way he did earlier. I agree with that

 - Part of it is certainly that he has a town read on me and didn't push my wagon off the cliff when he could have, although I do suspect others because of that.

 - And I think the way that he came up with a town read on me was very town, going back and analyzing whether or not my explanation for the hammer was credible or not. Everyone else just assumed I was lying or telling the truth, he researched it. Scum Axxle could have just said "I think yuma is scum" or "I think yuma is town" But axxle backed his up with work. That is more town to me.

[ashersky]

Can someone explain to me the case on Ashersky if it isn't for Lurking?  I "thirded" the post that Joth made where he said (paraphrasing) "I would be comfortable with a lurker lynch on Ash but I dont like that my 2 biggest scum reads are the ones pushing it."  I am behind lurker lynches; lurking is bad.  But the fact that Eevee and Yuma are the ones that were pushing it makes me very suspicious.  I could see scum very opportunistically taking advantage of a lurking town player.  I stand by my claim that I dont want to see frustrated ashersky because if he is town then it is TERRIBLE for town.  So initial question: What is the case on Ashersky if it isn't for lurking?

This.

Lurker ash and "man he feels scummy" are the top reasons for voting me.  I can't do much about the first and I don't have an answer to the second, as seen in all games I play.

I have given my own analysis and reasoning for votes, and who I would and wouldn't vote for.  I feel like that has to be helpful to the town.  What else can I provide?

PPE -- I forgot Axxle.  Null read there.

[yuma]

Can someone explain to me the case on Ashersky if it isn't for Lurking?  I "thirded" the post that Joth made where he said (paraphrasing) "I would be comfortable with a lurker lynch on Ash but I dont like that my 2 biggest scum reads are the ones pushing it."  I am behind lurker lynches; lurking is bad.  But the fact that Eevee and Yuma are the ones that were pushing it makes me very suspicious.  I could see scum very opportunistically taking advantage of a lurking town player.  I stand by my claim that I dont want to see frustrated ashersky because if he is town then it is TERRIBLE for town.  So initial question: What is the case on Ashersky if it isn't for lurking?

Well I was voting for him earlier because he created some bad cases yesterday and today that looked forced and appeared to be an attempt to get on a wagon early. He did something similar in MXIV--sorry another game reference for you.

Axxle voted for him because he put me at L-1 before Axxle and Volt were done with the discussion on me.

When he has posted he hasn't had much to say. I am against lurk all lynchers and have been since that meta existed. I am very in favor of lynching scummy lurkers if it is the most likely to hit scum, which I think is becoming a possibility with ash.

But, then again, right now I am voting for qvist.

[yuma]

Well, my lunch break is over and I need to get off F.DS so I can write this stupid story. (Last day before Thanksgiving break = complete lack of work ethic).

If a yuma hammer isn't dropped when I get back (and I highly doubt it will be, for whatever reason) then I'll change my vote next time I come online. Either to Eevee or ashersky.

I am kinda wondering if this might be some sort of signal to scum partners saying, "hammer yuma."

[Voltgloss]

yuma, why do you have a townread on Axxle?

there have been a couple of things

- i think it was you that pointed out that mafia axxle would have been unlikely to lurk the way he did earlier. I agree with that

 - Part of it is certainly that he has a town read on me and didn't push my wagon off the cliff when he could have, although I do suspect others because of that.

 - And I think the way that he came up with a town read on me was very town, going back and analyzing whether or not my explanation for the hammer was credible or not. Everyone else just assumed I was lying or telling the truth, he researched it. Scum Axxle could have just said "I think yuma is scum" or "I think yuma is town" But axxle backed his up with work. That is more town to me.

The ironic thing is that... while I don't find your reasons for seeing Axxle as town tremendously convincing...

This post reads genuine enough to make me a lot more convinced about you (yuma) being town.

Unvote.

[Axxle]

yuma, why do you have a townread on Axxle?

there have been a couple of things

- i think it was you that pointed out that mafia axxle would have been unlikely to lurk the way he did earlier. I agree with that

 - Part of it is certainly that he has a town read on me and didn't push my wagon off the cliff when he could have, although I do suspect others because of that.

 - And I think the way that he came up with a town read on me was very town, going back and analyzing whether or not my explanation for the hammer was credible or not. Everyone else just assumed I was lying or telling the truth, he researched it. Scum Axxle could have just said "I think yuma is scum" or "I think yuma is town" But axxle backed his up with work. That is more town to me.

The ironic thing is that... while I don't find your reasons for seeing Axxle as town tremendously convincing...

This post reads genuine enough to make me a lot more convinced about you (yuma) being town.

Unvote.

This post reads genuine enough to make me a lot more convinced about you (Voltgloss) being town...

[Eevee]

Jot: 276 scummy vibe out of Qvist's post.
jot: 280 suspsicious of frisk for a mass claim suggestion
jot 284 votes Grujah/volt for lurking
jot 312 votes yuma following volt's case
jot 394 expresses suspicion of eevee
jot 454 expresses scum read on eevee, again? I think.
jot 516 has no opinion on ashersky
666 jot; torn on yuma read
693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma
710 jot: will vote elsewhere if yuma isn't lynched when he comes back

Still want to lynch this guy.

ash 288 votes frisk for a "whoops I didn't know setup" mistake
ash 313 votes yuma see above, still suspicious of frisk
ash 431 votes yuma because nothing has changed since he last unvoted and unvotes in 433
559 ash votes yuma to put him back to L-1
619 ash says he is willing to vote for frisk and themunch but not eevee or voltgloss

Still also fine with ashersky.

Also worth noting, Volt has said surprisingly litter after his yuma case that's now dying down.

[Voltgloss]

Eevee, can you please summarize the case on joth? 

[Eevee]

First of all, most of these things can be explained otherwise as well. Remember I know I'm town and consider yuma to be town as well. Also have lighter town reads on Munch and then Voltgloss, and give Axxle some credit for the things yuma just mentioned. So approaching these from the point of view I arrived in with process of elimination:

Jot: 276 scummy vibe out of Qvist's post. - I still also suspect Qvist, saying he got a "scummy vibe" could be a handy way of getting interactions with your scum buddy. He never follows up on qvist as far as i can tell.
jot: 280 suspsicious of frisk for a mass claim suggestion - I dont think this warrants any suspicion, wishywashy
jot 284 votes Grujah/volt for lurking - I dont remember how excessive said lurking was, but wouldnt be the first time mafia tries to buld a wagon on a townie when they give (more or less) legit reasons for it.
jot 312 votes yuma following volt's case - Same here, happy to wagon on someone I think is town.
jot 394 expresses suspicion of eevee - I was defending yuma heavily, some people like munch seemed interest in killing me.
jot 454 expresses scum read on eevee, again? I think.
jot 516 has no opinion on ashersky - wouldnt want to get his scumbuddy lynched
666 jot; torn on yuma read
693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma - again, consider this from my view point. I'm town and I think yuma is town (and I think joth and asher are scum together with a good probability)
710 jot: will vote elsewhere if yuma isn't lynched when he comes back


Okay, writing that post felt kind of stupid, because it looks like I'm saying joth is scum because I think he is scum. Process of elimination and the fact he plays like I'd expect scum to play and isn't giving me any town vibes + the fact that his positions regarding other players seem scummy to me (is suspecting guys I think are town, is suspecting guys I think are mafia but not following up on it or not suspecting them at all) is the reason for my suspicion in a nutshell.

Vote: jotheonah

[jotheonah]

as promised, Vote: Eevee

Thanks for making the choice between you and ashersky really easy.

inb4 someone asks for my case on Eevee and/or accuses me of OMGUS: He's almost single-handedly responsible for stopping the yuma wagon in its tracks and he generally seems WAY too sure yuma is town with no evidence, and in spite of evidence to the contrary. I have been expressing a scum read on him all along.

He just made a long case on me with virtually no content, basically just reposting yuma's suspicion list and adding "because he's scum" to the end of everything I do. Pretty lazy.

[Eevee]

I'm somewhat happy to let these smart people flesh out which of me or joth seem more likely to be mafia. Just remember, some of the guys "pondering this dilemma" are actually joth's scumbuddies. Other than that, I really think you are going to make the right call.

Okay, happy might be a strong word, but I do like this better than the previous situation where the only other guy with votes on was yuma.

I know I've ridiculed others for certainty like this earlier, but I really am willing to gamble the game on Joth being scum in this case.

[jotheonah]

this is unfortunate timing as the next week is not going to be good for access for me. I will try to be around.

[Eevee]

Btw, joth is once again "expressing suspicion" on someone I think has a good chance of being his scumbuddy, without actually following through with it. Like how awfully convenient it is that all your actions with guys I think are likely to be mafia are like that (town reads or scum reads you don't back up with a vote).

[Eevee]

Joth, do you see any scenario where I'm town?

[Voltgloss]

joth, which do you think is more likely and why:

1.  Eevee/yuma scumteam
2.  town yuma + scum Eevee

Eevee, which do you think is more likely and why:

1.  joth/ash scumteam
2.  scum joth + town ash
3.  town joth + scum ash

[Eevee]

Joth and ash are my two biggest individual scum reads (individual = based on their own play alone, without considering their interactions) and their interactions together support them being from the same scum team very well. So, calling scum pairs here, I think them both being scum is the most likely scenario. I would say scum joth + town ash is slightly more likely than the other way around, but that is not a distinction I'm super comfortable making.

It's weird, town Eevee isn't usually this crazy confident. Maybe the blitz games have me all riled up or something. Going to be a big lesson in humility if joth gets lynched and flips town.

[jotheonah]

Yes, yes it will.

Volt: The #1 scummy thing Eevee has done is thrown the brakes on the yuma lynch. As scum, that's a very gutsy thing to do. Almost unbelievably gutsy.

If they're both scum, he's done it to save his partner, which is crazy because it ties them together in a very bad way. It's possible though. After all, it's almost working. Remember, scum just has to push for a couple mislynches to win, so maybe Eevee figured it was worth the risk if #3 is still flying under the radar. (Much like Robz and I blatantly outing ourselves but keeping FTL covered in Resistance IV).

But if yuma's town it's more interesting. In that case, this has been a bid by scumEevee to gain major town cred by halting a wagon he knows is bad. In that case he was probably hoping the yuma wagon would go through anyway, but he did his job too well.

So to answer your question, I don't know. Either seems plausible, but I like the both scum theory a bit better.

[yuma]

Interesting developments here...

I am going to have to mull this over and take a closer look at both. Of all the people off my wagon eevee was in the middle. And of all the people on my wagon jot was also toward the middle.

I think I still prefer an ash or a qvist lynch over either of these two, but will take a closer look.

[Axxle]

]I'm feeling very good about there being one scum in Eevee/Joth.  Most likely joth.

Vote: Joth

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm going to need to reread Joth - but I am strongly considering Joth.  Note - this does not clear eevee imho.

[TheMunch]

I have been finding my reads incredibly similar to Joth.  I feel like I wont like this game if Joth flips scum just as much as the game where Yuma flips town...

[Captain_Frisk]

I have been finding my reads incredibly similar to Joth.  I feel like I wont like this game if Joth flips scum just as much as the game where Yuma flips town...

2 players having the same reads doesn't mean that they are the same alignment.

Yuma and I got into trouble in M8 because we were basically writing the same posts.

Yuma was town, I was not, and surprisingly, this wasn't advanced scum play on my part.  I just read and commented on things I felt were scummy, without going overboard on my mates.

[TheMunch]

I have been finding my reads incredibly similar to Joth.  I feel like I wont like this game if Joth flips scum just as much as the game where Yuma flips town...

2 players having the same reads doesn't mean that they are the same alignment.

Yuma and I got into trouble in M8 because we were basically writing the same posts.

Yuma was town, I was not, and surprisingly, this wasn't advanced scum play on my part.  I just read and commented on things I felt were scummy, without going overboard on my mates.

That makes me feel better.  I mean I would like to think that my reads are my own and I've come to the conclusions I have independently and joth just happens to feel the same way.  Then my mind starts thinking of the posibility that if Joth is scum hes just pushing my bad reads, making me feel more confident in them intentionally... Man, the ways that you can doubt yourself in this game...

[Voltgloss]

Joth v. Eevee gives me a weird vibe because of how effectively it's diverted everyone's attention from ash.  I'm not sure what to conclude from that yet.

I need to reread two specific things:
1.  How ash's play this game compares to his scumplay in MXIV
2.  Who, and how, joth tried to convince to join the yuma wagon

[Captain_Frisk]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

So lurkers:

{Qvist, Asher}

Cross reference with my list of people I suspect per #644

 {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Vote: Ashersky

[TheMunch]

I dont think I'm comfortable with lynching Ashersky.  His return felt very similar to his last day in MXIII.  I really want to reread Ash when he did post earlier (cause one post is not enough to go on) and see if this correlates with how he was playing in MXIII.  That being said, Ash's comeback post said he didn't want to get mislynched for lurking and followed it up with "I've already said my reads, I stand by them."  I'm not particularly going to hold that against him as my reads haven't changed all too much today, however, I think there was a lot that happened while he was away and he didn't really comment on any of it.  I dont necessarily think this is particularly scummy, just really bad play.

So that being said I have some questions for Ashersky:
What do you think of CF's "lynch my short list"?
What do you think of Eevee's immediate vote for you following that proposal?
Some have developed town reads on Yuma while you were gone, such as volt; has Yuma's responses give you a stronger or weaker scum read on him?
Which do you think is the strongest case on Eevee?
You share my reads on Eevee/Yuma; do you have any thoughts on who the final scum is?

As I reread more of ashersky I might come up with more questions; this just seems to be relevant discussion he did not participate in.

[Eevee]

Munch, you are asking Ash all these questions, why is 'what do you think of eevee vs joth' not one of them?

[Captain_Frisk]

Munch, you are asking Ash all these questions, why is 'what do you think of eevee vs joth' not one of them?

I can field this one:

TheMunch / Ashersky / Joth scum trio!

[Captain_Frisk]

Munch, you are asking Ash all these questions, why is 'what do you think of eevee vs joth' not one of them?

I can field this one:

TheMunch / Ashersky / Joth scum trio!

The only problem with this is that the munch should be in favor of my plan if this is the case, not opposed.

[Qvist]

Sorry for all the lurking, I had not much time.
The game really gives me a headache. The longer I think about it the more everybody looks scummy.
So I'm not sure about the yuma vs. Eevee / Captain_Frisk dilemma, I'm still trying to figure that out.
I'm trying to get a better picture of all of you, but the problem is:

I still have no read on Axxle and it seems that most of you don't have a read neither. He had a lot of one-liners in his post.
Axxle, could you clarify your position in more detail?
What do you think of the yuma wagon?
I a similar way I like to hear more from ashersky as well.

[Qvist]

yuma, I think your hypothesis is very sensible, and the opposite some people are proposing is at least as convoluted if not more.


Frisk, how? I haven't seen qvist's tunneling on you as a towny thing, how does that make everything we agree on completely null?


Everyone, I'd like to hear your take on ashersky. Would you vote for him and why?

Can you start with an explanation of why you're voting for ashersky?

Because he is scummy. Lurking, not taking positions. Basically, I think he is scum waiting on town to mislynch yuma. In a situation like this, I would expect scum to stay in the sidelines.

I don't like the whole "Lynch all lurkers" thing. But what you said, actually makes sense.
ashersky, I really like to hear your point of view.

[Eevee]

I liked when this was going to me or jotheonah. I don't it like being derailed back to yuma or now to axxle. Ash lynch is fine I guess, But really guys, jotheonah please!

[Captain_Frisk]

I liked when this was going to me or jotheonah. I don't it like being derailed back to yuma or now to axxle. Ash lynch is fine I guess, But really guys, jotheonah please!

Why would you like it if it was going to you?

[Qvist]

All right folks

1. Captain_Frisk - I'm town.
2. jotheonah
4. Eevee
5. Voltgloss
6. Axxle
8. yuma - I'm going to gamble that he is town.  I would have claimed a PR as scum.
10. ashersky
11. QVist - aggressive tunnelling on me is unlikely as a new scum player
12. TheMunch - bad theory is unlikely to be scum

This leaves the scum team as 3 out of {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

If we can just eliminate one person out of that set, we can lynch the rest in order and win the game, because we have 1 mislynch.

Vote: ashersky then?

I like your like of thinking Frisk, and basically only disagree on Qvist.

I don't get how you got from CF's post to voting for ashersky. He hasn't said anything in his analysis about him, just that he's one of his 5 suspects.
Why no vote Voltgloss, vote jotheonah, especially as jotheonah is one of your scum favourites?

I think an ashersky lurker lynch would acceptable to me in and of itself. But the fact that it's been pushed heavily by my top two scumspects, yuma and Eevee, means that it's either a bad idea or I've been way off-base all along. (Which I admit is more than possible).

Interesting. Sounds plausible.

Jot: 276 scummy vibe out of Qvist's post.
jot: 280 suspsicious of frisk for a mass claim suggestion
jot 284 votes Grujah/volt for lurking
jot 312 votes yuma following volt's case
jot 394 expresses suspicion of eevee
jot 454 expresses scum read on eevee, again? I think.
jot 516 has no opinion on ashersky
666 jot; torn on yuma read
693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma
710 jot: will vote elsewhere if yuma isn't lynched when he comes back

Still want to lynch this guy.

ash 288 votes frisk for a "whoops I didn't know setup" mistake
ash 313 votes yuma see above, still suspicious of frisk
ash 431 votes yuma because nothing has changed since he last unvoted and unvotes in 433
559 ash votes yuma to put him back to L-1
619 ash says he is willing to vote for frisk and themunch but not eevee or voltgloss

Still also fine with ashersky.

Also worth noting, Volt has said surprisingly litter after his yuma case that's now dying down.

What's this post about? You cite Volt's summary (thanks for this BTW) and pick two of the players just to say I want to lynch them without a real reason.

Eevee, can you please summarize the case on joth?

Exactly what I meant. I don't get it.

First of all, most of these things can be explained otherwise as well. Remember I know I'm town and consider yuma to be town as well. Also have lighter town reads on Munch and then Voltgloss, and give Axxle some credit for the things yuma just mentioned. So approaching these from the point of view I arrived in with process of elimination:

Jot: 276 scummy vibe out of Qvist's post. - I still also suspect Qvist, saying he got a "scummy vibe" could be a handy way of getting interactions with your scum buddy. He never follows up on qvist as far as i can tell.
jot: 280 suspsicious of frisk for a mass claim suggestion - I dont think this warrants any suspicion, wishywashy
jot 284 votes Grujah/volt for lurking - I dont remember how excessive said lurking was, but wouldnt be the first time mafia tries to buld a wagon on a townie when they give (more or less) legit reasons for it.
jot 312 votes yuma following volt's case - Same here, happy to wagon on someone I think is town.
jot 394 expresses suspicion of eevee - I was defending yuma heavily, some people like munch seemed interest in killing me.
jot 454 expresses scum read on eevee, again? I think.
jot 516 has no opinion on ashersky - wouldnt want to get his scumbuddy lynched
666 jot; torn on yuma read
693 jot: ash is an acceptable lynch, but worried that it is lead by eevee, yuma - again, consider this from my view point. I'm town and I think yuma is town (and I think joth and asher are scum together with a good probability)
710 jot: will vote elsewhere if yuma isn't lynched when he comes back


Okay, writing that post felt kind of stupid, because it looks like I'm saying joth is scum because I think he is scum. Process of elimination and the fact he plays like I'd expect scum to play and isn't giving me any town vibes + the fact that his positions regarding other players seem scummy to me (is suspecting guys I think are town, is suspecting guys I think are mafia but not following up on it or not suspecting them at all) is the reason for my suspicion in a nutshell.

Vote: jotheonah

After Voltgloss pushed you to explain it, you switch to jotheonah and even admit that you have no real reason for it.

I liked when this was going to me or jotheonah. I don't it like being derailed back to yuma or now to axxle. Ash lynch is fine I guess, But really guys, jotheonah please!

It gets more and more pushy. I switch back and Vote: Eevee

[Qvist]

Some more comments:

I'm here now, and will be around most of the day, although that's night for most of you.

I see I get the lynch the lurker treatment yet again.  *sigh*

Sorry, I've just been mislynched a bunch lately.

Anyway, I've given reads, although they are a good number of pages back now.  I was on Frisk D1, continued on D2, and would still vote for him.  Throughout this latest yuma or alternates talk, I think he's been trying to lead town, especially with his "let's just lynch everyone on this list until we win" idea, which sounds an awful lot like something scum!Frisk would come up with to just auto-win for his scum team.  Imagine if we went with it...he just chose who he wanted.

My vote's still on yuma, and I think he's a good lynch for today.  There's been plenty of discussion, which people always required so they don't complain about derphammers (see hydras, where we continue to disagree).  When he flips scum, it'll tell us a lot, especially about those who bussed hard and/or tried to save him.  If he flips town, again, plenty of information, but I don't think this is the most likely scenario (probably 30%).

I had a town read on Eevee from before, but I see some folks have made some cases on him since.  I'm not convinced yet, and don't think he's the right lynch for today.  I continue to support my VG town read, and would put him right behind me on the towniness scale.

Qvist and TheMunch are both hard to read, because they're a bit forward in their style, Q is new, and I don't have a lot of games with Munch to really go off of.

Is it just me or did you basically said nothing? Just a lot of "I don't know"s and "it can or can't be"s.

[Captain_Frisk]

QVist's reaction to post count is very interesting.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-7

Qvist (1) - Yuma
Yuma (2) - TheMunch, Ashersky
Eevee (2) - Jotheonah, QVist
Jotheonah (2) - Eevee, Axxle
Ashersky (1) - Captain_Frisk

Not Voting (1) - Voltgloss

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

[Voltgloss]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

Frisk, do you think this post count fairly reflects Axxle's level of lurkiness?

[Qvist]

QVist's reaction to post count is very interesting.

I don't know what you find interesting, but I had no time to post since yesterday because I have a lot of work to do. Don't forget the time difference. I'm now done with work and go home. I just want to leave some comments before I do. Yesterday I did the same thing, look at the timestamp.

[Captain_Frisk]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

Frisk, do you think this post count fairly reflects Axxle's level of lurkiness?

You're thinking about that mega post in the middle?

[Voltgloss]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

Frisk, do you think this post count fairly reflects Axxle's level of lurkiness?

You're thinking about that mega post in the middle?

Yep.

[Captain_Frisk]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

Frisk, do you think this post count fairly reflects Axxle's level of lurkiness?

You're thinking about that mega post in the middle?

Do you feel that he's been more lurky than Asher?

Yep.

[Captain_Frisk]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

Frisk, do you think this post count fairly reflects Axxle's level of lurkiness?

You're thinking about that mega post in the middle?

Yep.

Do you feel that he's been more lurky than asher?

[TheMunch]

Munch, you are asking Ash all these questions, why is 'what do you think of eevee vs joth' not one of them?

Not intentionally missed.  I mean the heart of my post was I would rather lynch ashersky for a reason not lurking and that was the point of the questions; to make ashersky produce content that can be analyzed.  This question can be added to my list.

[Eevee]

I liked when this was going to me or jotheonah. I don't it like being derailed back to yuma or now to axxle. Ash lynch is fine I guess, But really guys, jotheonah please!

Why would you like it if it was going to you?

Maybe you'll listen to me after I flipped town. No, seriously it's that I'm SO confident about joth and feel at least the town aligned among us would see how my case is stronger and pick the right guy.

[Captain_Frisk]

I liked when this was going to me or jotheonah. I don't it like being derailed back to yuma or now to axxle. Ash lynch is fine I guess, But really guys, jotheonah please!

Why would you like it if it was going to you?

Maybe you'll listen to me after I flipped town. No, seriously it's that I'm SO confident about joth and feel at least the town aligned among us would see how my case is stronger and pick the right guy.

Go back, read joth, and if you think he is scum, would you also assume that Asher is one of his buddies?

This is one of the things that lead me to vote Asher.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well, my lunch break is over and I need to get off F.DS so I can write this stupid story. (Last day before Thanksgiving break = complete lack of work ethic).

If a yuma hammer isn't dropped when I get back (and I highly doubt it will be, for whatever reason) then I'll change my vote next time I come online. Either to Eevee or ashersky.

[Voltgloss]

On further read, I see Frisk's "raw" postcount data combines Days 1 and 2, as well as pre-game.  Let's break those out.

Day 1 raw postcount:

Captain_Frisk - 36
jotheonah - 26
Eevee - 11
Grujah/Voltgloss - 3
Axxle - 18
yuma - 7
ashersky - 9
Qvist - 8
TheMunch - 10

Day 2 raw postcount:

Captain_Frisk - 64
jotheonah - 41
Eevee - 73
Grujah/Voltgloss - 60
Axxle - 45
yuma - 90
ashersky - 30
Qvist - 32
TheMunch - 70

The evening of November 14, Axxle made 22 posts in a row (interrupted by one post of ashersky's).  If that series of mini-posts was considered one mega-post, he'd have 24 posts total Day 2.  If each mini-post was considered half of a post, he'd have 34 posts total Day 2.

So Frisk, to answer your question:  I think Axxle, ash, and Qvist are all lurking roughly equally on Day 2.  With joth coming next.

[Eevee]

I'd said this quite a few times now.
Joth and Ash are my two biggest scum reads, and their interactions (that is not the only time joth has raised suspicion on him without following up on it) lead me to believe it's very possible they are in fact scum buddies. I also wouldn't be surprised if their third member was someone I don't suspect at all. Kinda don't see Qvist defending them like that (by attacking me) if the team was exactly joth Ash Qvist.

[Eevee]

I'd said this quite a few times now.
Joth and Ash are my two biggest scum reads, and their interactions (that is not the only time joth has raised suspicion on him without following up on it) lead me to believe it's very possible they are in fact scum buddies. I also wouldn't be surprised if their third member was someone I don't suspect at all. Kinda don't see Qvist defending them like that (by attacking me) if the team was exactly joth Ash Qvist.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'd said this quite a few times now.
Joth and Ash are my two biggest scum reads, and their interactions (that is not the only time joth has raised suspicion on him without following up on it) lead me to believe it's very possible they are in fact scum buddies. I also wouldn't be surprised if their third member was someone I don't suspect at all. Kinda don't see Qvist defending them like that (by attacking me) if the team was exactly joth Ash Qvist.

So important that you needed to post it twice over 2 minutes apart?

[Captain_Frisk]

I'd said this quite a few times now.
Joth and Ash are my two biggest scum reads, and their interactions (that is not the only time joth has raised suspicion on him without following up on it) lead me to believe it's very possible they are in fact scum buddies. I also wouldn't be surprised if their third member was someone I don't suspect at all. Kinda don't see Qvist defending them like that (by attacking me) if the team was exactly joth Ash Qvist.

So important that you needed to post it twice over 2 minutes apart?

Especially strange given:

only mobile access for the next 30 hours, basically no access at all for the next 15 hours.

[Eevee]

on train, bad internet. didnt realize it came through the first time, sorry. just arrived here, VLA starts now except for possible post-party drunkposting.

[Captain_Frisk]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

[Voltgloss]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Do you want people to answer in a particular order?

[Captain_Frisk]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Nah - knock yourself our Volt.
Do you want people to answer in a particular order?

[Captain_Frisk]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Do you want people to answer in a particular order?

Nah - knock yourself our Volt.

With proper quotation this time

[Voltgloss]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Currently, my top 2 scum reads out of those 5 people are ashersky and Axxle.

I just reviewed ashersky's posts during Day 2 of M-XIV (where he was scum, came under pressure, and was ultimately lynched) and they remind me a lot of his posts here.  Especially his "this always happens to me" argument.  See below (#1040 from M-XIV):

I will note this happens to me every game it seems.  Shraeye and I are alike in this, in that everyone reads us as scummy and we're always town.  Like now.

I felt the case on Robz was good, and clearly I wasn't the only one.  So I disagree that that is a good reason to vote for me now.  I am just the easy target for scum to push, as I look awfully bad after the Robz flip.  Honestly, I expected it.

Going to sleep now, so in case I die overnight on the shortest D2 ever, with no claiming or anything, my reads for the town tomorrow:

I reiterate that I think one of Galz and Gruj is town and one is mafia.  I lean toward a town Gruj, as mentioned before.

I think Frisk knowingly pushed to have the highest post count to counter the lynch all lurkers f.ds meta, and his non-response to cases on him is scummy.

I found Shraeye's D1 inconsistent with his normal play, in that he posted much less, and much shorter than usual.  He's usually analytical and abrasive; he was neither on D1.  Sheeping isn't his style, and yet his vote on me looks just like that.  So slight scum read there.

I have full town reads on Eevee and Archetype, as mentioned.

For reference, ash's scumpartners in that game were yuma and Cuzz (neither mentioned at all in this post).

And the "not mentioned at all" issue is part of what has me suspicious of Axxle.  I agree with Qvist that Axxle, for whatever reason, is flying under people's radars.  I would have expected town!Axxle to get more flak (from scum) for lurking than he (Axxle) actually received.  I also find Axxle's waiting to the very end of hearing everyone else in the town weigh in on yuma to be awfully convenient.  And I especially don't like how quickly Axxle was willing to plunk a vote down in the joth/Eevee debate - while setting things up to go after Eevee tomorrow if joth flips town:

]I'm feeling very good about there being one scum in Eevee/Joth.  Most likely joth.

Vote: Joth

As for "who would I bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people":  that's easy.  Voltgloss.  Out of {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}, I would bet the game that Voltgloss is town.

...that is, perhaps, not the answer you are looking for.  Well.  I think joth v. Eevee is, most likely, town v. town.  Which one of them I think is more likely to be town... I need to complete my reread on joth to decide for certain; but for now I would say I think Eevee is the most likely out of {joth, Axxle, Eevee, ashersky} to be town.  As I said previously, I have trouble seeing scum!Eevee opposing the yuma wagon so forcefully and so quickly, assuming yuma is town (and my current read on yuma is, indeed, that he is more likely town than scum).

[TheMunch]

That quote from ashersky from XIV is very disappointing.  I gathered he had a penchant for getting mislynched and I saw it happened in  XIII as well but I did not expect that he would also have a penchant for taking a very defeatist attitude towards the mislynch even when he is scum.  I figured that his "ugh i'm going to get mislynched again" was honest cause it sounded like the end of XIII but the fact that he had precisely the same exasperation in XIV is pretty damning.

[TheMunch]

That quote from ashersky from XIV is very disappointing.  I gathered he had a penchant for getting mislynched and I saw it happened in  XIII as well but I did not expect that he would also have a penchant for taking a very defeatist attitude towards the mislynch even when he is scum.  I figured that his "ugh i'm going to get mislynched again" was honest cause it sounded like the end of XIII but the fact that he had precisely the same exasperation in XIV is pretty damning.

Or rather, instead of "damning", it destroys a lot of the town cred that I was giving him for his response to lurking. If he has exactly the same response both when he is town and when he is scum, then that action does not merit points for either towniness or scuminess.  I still want him to answer mine (and Eevee's) questions as I would like more to go on. 

[Axxle]

Sorry for all the lurking, I had not much time.
The game really gives me a headache. The longer I think about it the more everybody looks scummy.
So I'm not sure about the yuma vs. Eevee / Captain_Frisk dilemma, I'm still trying to figure that out.
I'm trying to get a better picture of all of you, but the problem is:

I still have no read on Axxle and it seems that most of you don't have a read neither. He had a lot of one-liners in his post.
Axxle, could you clarify your position in more detail?
What do you think of the yuma wagon?
I a similar way I like to hear more from ashersky as well.

I don't understand the first question. What position?
I have disliked the yuma wagon.  I still don't understand it beyond the hammer and his null reactions to his wagon.  I think scum would have tried to play the hammer as much more of a mistake than he did

[Qvist]

Your position in general, your standpoint. I mean who is likely scum and why? Who is likely town and why?
Just talk a little bit more, it's really hard to read you.

[Axxle]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Scum: Joth, Asher
Town: Axxle.  If not allowed, Voltgloss.

[Axxle]

The only proponent for Lynch all Lurkers in this town is Eevee.  That's why I'm not really getting targeted (I looked this up earlier to see if players were behaving oddly)

[Axxle]

Your position in general, your standpoint. I mean who is likely scum and why? Who is likely town and why?
Just talk a little bit more, it's really hard to read you.

I should mention I'm phone posting and will be for the weekend.  I'll see if I can list my basic reads.

[Axxle]

1. Captain_Frisk - scumread. Did not like how he pushed on Galz nor how easily he jumped the yuma wagon.  The discrepancy is scummy.
2. jotheonah - scumread. I think I mentioned a few things when I voted for him at the start of day 2.  His interactions with Eevee strongly indicate they are on opposite teams.
3. Robz - Killed Night 0 - Vanilla Townie
4. Eevee - townread. For many of the reasons Volt said and general gut.
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced
6. Axxle - I have mod supplied information that he's town.
7. eHunt - Killed Night 1 - Vanilla Townie
8. yuma - townread. The wagon reeked of scum. His claim reeked of town.
9. cuzz - Killed Night 0 - Town Vigilante
10. ashersky - scumread, overall lurking and sheeping.  That quote is pretty damning.
11. QVist - townread. Reminds me of SFS in his first game.
12. TheMunch - null read.  He's done scummy and townie things.
13. Galzria - Lynched Day 1 - Serial Killer

[ashersky]

That quote from ashersky from XIV is very disappointing.  I gathered he had a penchant for getting mislynched and I saw it happened in  XIII as well but I did not expect that he would also have a penchant for taking a very defeatist attitude towards the mislynch even when he is scum.  I figured that his "ugh i'm going to get mislynched again" was honest cause it sounded like the end of XIII but the fact that he had precisely the same exasperation in XIV is pretty damning.

Or it shows my meta is the same for either alignment.

[Captain_Frisk]

1. Captain_Frisk - scumread. Did not like how he pushed on Galz nor how easily he jumped the yuma wagon.  The discrepancy is scummy.
8. yuma - townread. The wagon reeked of scum. His claim reeked of town.

so - I'm scummy for avoiding the scum filled yuma wagon? 

Got it.

[ashersky]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Excluding yourself makes this silly.  But I can play.  From that random subset, axxle and Joth are scummiest and Eevee is towniest (which is consistently what I've been saying all day.) after myself.

[Captain_Frisk]

@asher - here's where I'm coming from.  Feel free to throw up a scum read / case on me if you want, but this is where that subset came from and why its not random.

All right folks

1. Captain_Frisk - I'm town.
2. jotheonah
4. Eevee
5. Voltgloss
6. Axxle
8. yuma - I'm going to gamble that he is town.  I would have claimed a PR as scum.
10. ashersky
11. QVist - aggressive tunnelling on me is unlikely as a new scum player
12. TheMunch - bad theory is unlikely to be scum

This leaves the scum team as 3 out of {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

If we can just eliminate one person out of that set, we can lynch the rest in order and win the game, because we have 1 mislynch.

[ashersky]

I dont think I'm comfortable with lynching Ashersky.  His return felt very similar to his last day in MXIII.  I really want to reread Ash when he did post earlier (cause one post is not enough to go on) and see if this correlates with how he was playing in MXIII.  That being said, Ash's comeback post said he didn't want to get mislynched for lurking and followed it up with "I've already said my reads, I stand by them."  I'm not particularly going to hold that against him as my reads haven't changed all too much today, however, I think there was a lot that happened while he was away and he didn't really comment on any of it.  I dont necessarily think this is particularly scummy, just really bad play.

So that being said I have some questions for Ashersky:
What do you think of CF's "lynch my short list"?
What do you think of Eevee's immediate vote for you following that proposal?
Some have developed town reads on Yuma while you were gone, such as volt; has Yuma's responses give you a stronger or weaker scum read on him?
Which do you think is the strongest case on Eevee?
You share my reads on Eevee/Yuma; do you have any thoughts on who the final scum is?

As I reread more of ashersky I might come up with more questions; this just seems to be relevant discussion he did not participate in.

CF's lynch my list is a scum gambit for the win, I believe.  He's been trying to lead town in the way he loves as mafia, and he's trying to again.

Eevee's vote was bad town play, I think.  Town v. Town there.

Yuma's survival has not given me a townier read than before, but his posts have stayed consistent throughout.  When we were scum together before, I think he was more meticulous, so I think his posting does gain him some towncred.

I don't like the cases on Eevee, and don't share your opinion on him.  Pretty sure I've been anti-Eevee-lynch all this time.

Vote: Captain_Frisk.

VLA for Thanksgiving.

Also, the lurker lynch thing will continue to discriminate against those of us living outside the majority time zones of everyone else.  I am contributing reads, and votes.  Nothing else I can do in my role here.

[Voltgloss]

Wait, I'm confused.

Excluding yourself makes this silly.  But I can play.  From that random subset, axxle and Joth are scummiest and Eevee is towniest (which is consistently what I've been saying all day.) after myself.

In the above post, ash calls out joth as scummy...

Eevee's vote was bad town play, I think.  Town v. Town there.

...and less than ten minutes later ash is saying joth v. Eevee is town v. town?

Am I misunderstanding something here?

[ashersky]

Wait, I'm confused.

Excluding yourself makes this silly.  But I can play.  From that random subset, axxle and Joth are scummiest and Eevee is towniest (which is consistently what I've been saying all day.) after myself.

In the above post, ash calls out joth as scummy...

Eevee's vote was bad town play, I think.  Town v. Town there.

...and less than ten minutes later ash is saying joth v. Eevee is town v. town?

Am I misunderstanding something here?

Eevee voting me was town v. Town.  Didn't Eevee immediately vote for me after Frisk's plan?

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, the lurker lynch thing will continue to discriminate against those of us living outside the majority time zones of everyone else.  I am contributing reads, and votes.  Nothing else I can do in my role here.

PINL - voting for me is not contributing to town.

[Voltgloss]

Wait, I'm confused.

Excluding yourself makes this silly.  But I can play.  From that random subset, axxle and Joth are scummiest and Eevee is towniest (which is consistently what I've been saying all day.) after myself.

In the above post, ash calls out joth as scummy...

Eevee's vote was bad town play, I think.  Town v. Town there.

...and less than ten minutes later ash is saying joth v. Eevee is town v. town?

Am I misunderstanding something here?

Eevee voting me was town v. Town.  Didn't Eevee immediately vote for me after Frisk's plan?

My bad, I did misunderstand.  I thought you were talking about Eevee's most recent vote on joth.  Never mind.

[yuma]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

Is anyone completely floored that I am the top poster? I am. I have never been anywhere near the top.

[yuma]

So I'm not sure about the yuma vs. Eevee / Captain_Frisk dilemma, I'm still trying to figure that out.

I am not sure what you are referring to here... I dont' think I am in a dilemma with either of these two players.

[TheMunch]

1. Captain_Frisk - 97
2. jotheonah - 71
4. Eevee - 88
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced - 60
6. Axxle - 64
8. yuma -103
10. ashersky - 42
11. QVist - 38
12. TheMunch - 80

Is anyone completely floored that I am the top poster? I am. I have never been anywhere near the top.

I'm surprised I'm as low as I am. I have felt very active this game!

[yuma]

That quote from ashersky from XIV is very disappointing.  I gathered he had a penchant for getting mislynched and I saw it happened in  XIII as well but I did not expect that he would also have a penchant for taking a very defeatist attitude towards the mislynch even when he is scum.  I figured that his "ugh i'm going to get mislynched again" was honest cause it sounded like the end of XIII but the fact that he had precisely the same exasperation in XIV is pretty damning.

Now do you see why I was so frustrated with you giving him sympathy points earlier on...?

[yuma]

Also, the lurker lynch thing will continue to discriminate against those of us living outside the majority time zones of everyone else.  I am contributing reads, and votes.  Nothing else I can do in my role here.

Just providing reads and votes isn't enough.

You aren't asking questions. You aren't getting involved in discussion. You aren't probing, quoting and analyzing and trying to flesh out scum. So either you are scum just sitting back and hoping town explodes (it is a good strategy and one that I often employ) or you are town and not quite doing enough.

And I do understand the timezone thing is hard. It most certainly is. I often have a hard time having a back and forth dialogue with people because I am not on at the same time as others and am often not on nearly as much, but still... Just reads and votes isn't enough.

(as an aside, I don't want to make you mad, or make you feel like you have to spend all this time on mafia just to play and be a good player. You don't. But if you are wondering what you can do to be less of a lurker, that is my answer, probe, ask questions even if no one else is around, give opinions on statement, etc.)

[yuma]

Well I am going to change my vote tovote: ashersky.

I prefer it over either the eevee or jot lynch at this point.

[TheMunch]

I don't know what the vote count is. Just landed and on my phone.  But while flying with the case on ash growing.  If we mislynch today which we can do without losing.  That leaves us with 4 town and 3 scum.  DO NOT VOTE EARLY IN THE DAY.  I don't want this game to fall to the same fate as blitz 5.  I knew there isn't day chat but I wouldn't run it past scum to set up a system to hammer from L3.

[ashersky]

Also, the lurker lynch thing will continue to discriminate against those of us living outside the majority time zones of everyone else.  I am contributing reads, and votes.  Nothing else I can do in my role here.

Just providing reads and votes isn't enough.

You aren't asking questions. You aren't getting involved in discussion. You aren't probing, quoting and analyzing and trying to flesh out scum. So either you are scum just sitting back and hoping town explodes (it is a good strategy and one that I often employ) or you are town and not quite doing enough.

And I do understand the timezone thing is hard. It most certainly is. I often have a hard time having a back and forth dialogue with people because I am not on at the same time as others and am often not on nearly as much, but still... Just reads and votes isn't enough.

(as an aside, I don't want to make you mad, or make you feel like you have to spend all this time on mafia just to play and be a good player. You don't. But if you are wondering what you can do to be less of a lurker, that is my answer, probe, ask questions even if no one else is around, give opinions on statement, etc.)

Here is my biggest question, really.  Why is Frisk getting such a pass this game?  He's quite a scum player (7 times!!) and knows how to lead his team to win.   He's proposing crazy, crazy, crazy ideas like "let's all just lynch x, y, z, and l in order and win!" and I am the only one calling him on it.

Can I just list some people and suggest we all lynch them?  Will that work for you to believe I am town?  Will someone please look closely at this??

[yuma]

Well the thing is that I have done basically the same thing, but haven't gone outright and said it.

I have town reads on TheMunch, Axxle, Voltgloss and to an extent eevee

so that leaves (Qvist, ashersky, jot, captain frisk) if I can eliminate 1 from this list then there you go.

Directing town isn't necessarily a scumtrait, it can also be a very protown trait, but it is one that is hard to interpret. At least not without relevant flips.

[ashersky]

Well the thing is that I have done basically the same thing, but haven't gone outright and said it.

I have town reads on TheMunch, Axxle, Voltgloss and to an extent eevee

so that leaves (Qvist, ashersky, jot, captain frisk) if I can eliminate 1 from this list then there you go.

Directing town isn't necessarily a scumtrait, it can also be a very protown trait, but it is one that is hard to interpret. At least not without relevant flips.

Frisk's flip would certainly be relevant.

[TheMunch]

Well the thing is that I have done basically the same thing, but haven't gone outright and said it.

I have town reads on TheMunch, Axxle, Voltgloss and to an extent eevee

so that leaves (Qvist, ashersky, jot, captain frisk) if I can eliminate 1 from this list then there you go.

Directing town isn't necessarily a scumtrait, it can also be a very protown trait, but it is one that is hard to interpret. At least not without relevant flips.

Frisk's flip would certainly be relevant.

I'm not sure about frisk specifically but if there is a chance that the person we lynch is town then we better be able to find at least one other scum for sure so scum doesn't hammer from L3.  I would much rather lynch scum today as this would make things much better for town.  Problem is there are so many people that are sure they have found different scum....

[Eevee]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

You chose a set of people with no town reads of mine. Joth and Ash are obviously my top scum reads, could see any of the other three being scum really. Gun to my head I'm picking Volt, but I don't feel good about the reason for that read. And again, I do have town reads, you just didnt include them in that list (except for myself).

[Eevee]

Volt, do you have any particular reason for thinking me vs joth was town on town? You explained your town read on me already, but at I didnt catch what makes you think joth is town.


Everyone, what do you make of the fact I was all but on my way to the lynching block and now all of a sudden everyone is listing me as their top town read of the five Frisk was asking about? To me it sounds like scum saw an opportunity to mislynch me because of my strong stance on yuma didnt appeal to a lot of people, but now is turning around, maybe because I've accused the right people and they don't want my flip validating my reads (hopeful/vain) or maybe because they feel they couldnt get enough townies behind the lynch.

I tried to ask joth if he thinks it's possible I'm town, he didnt answer. ashersky was repeating that he has thought I'm town all the time, which reads slightly scummy to me (like he is now proud of it because it's the read he'd want to have). I don't know if this is getting anywhere, but I strongly feel scum is expressing town reads on me at the moment.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-8

Yuma (1) - TheMunch
Eevee (2) - Jotheonah, QVist
Jotheonah (2) - Eevee, Axxle
Ashersky (2) - Captain_Frisk, Yuma
Captain_Frisk (1) - Ashersky

Not Voting (1) - Voltgloss

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

[Eevee]

I do acknowledge Frisk could definitely be scum here. I've though about it, usually the scum team has at least one guy who me/everyone thinks is playing really towny, and Frisk is indeed good at taking that role as scum as well. However, I disagree he is our best bet at finding scum today. It's just something we need to remember, he is not obvtown or anything like that despite all that leading.

[jotheonah]

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Still catching up, but SCUM: Eevee, ashersky
Town: Voltgloss

[Qvist]

12. TheMunch - bad theory is unlikely to be scum

This leaves the scum team as 3 out of {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Munch, you are asking Ash all these questions, why is 'what do you think of eevee vs joth' not one of them?

I can field this one:

TheMunch / Ashersky / Joth scum trio!

Just noticed this. So what? Is TheMunch scum or not?

[jotheonah]

@Eevee.

Of course it's possible. As a town player, I don't know anyone's alignment for certain. But you're certainty reads scummy to me.

And now, back to my family. I'm quite V/LA-y this weekend. On the offchance that I hit L-1, kindly resist the temptation to hammer before I check in.

[TheMunch]

12. TheMunch - bad theory is unlikely to be scum

This leaves the scum team as 3 out of {joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Munch, you are asking Ash all these questions, why is 'what do you think of eevee vs joth' not one of them?

I can field this one:

TheMunch / Ashersky / Joth scum trio!

Just noticed this. So what? Is TheMunch scum or not?

I think CF had just caught my "scumslip" so he was convinced I was scum for a bit.  I paid it no mind.

[Eevee]

I read that as a joke. When someone calls a scum trio without giving any explanations is usually not meant to be taken seriously.

[Voltgloss]

Is that everyone responding to Frisk's "game?"

Frisk, what are your thoughts therefrom?

[Captain_Frisk]

My thoughts are that I haven't read them, but I did enjoy thanksgiving?

[Qvist]

I read that as a joke. When someone calls a scum trio without giving any explanations is usually not meant to be taken seriously.

Really? I mean, does anyone else think so the same? It just seems so weird, like a mistake.

My thoughts are that I haven't read them, but I did enjoy thanksgiving?

? I don't understand that. What haven't you read? And I can't tell you if you did enjoy thanksgiving. I'm confused. i guess this was just Off-Topic.

[Qvist]

Nevermind, you responded to Voltgloss, and you meant with "them" the responses. Alright. Forget it.

[yuma]

Well the thing is that I have done basically the same thing, but haven't gone outright and said it.

I have town reads on TheMunch, Axxle, Voltgloss and to an extent eevee

so that leaves (Qvist, ashersky, jot, captain frisk) if I can eliminate 1 from this list then there you go.

Directing town isn't necessarily a scumtrait, it can also be a very protown trait, but it is one that is hard to interpret. At least not without relevant flips.

Frisk's flip would certainly be relevant.

so would yours, so would mine

[TheMunch]

Well the thing is that I have done basically the same thing, but haven't gone outright and said it.

I have town reads on TheMunch, Axxle, Voltgloss and to an extent eevee

so that leaves (Qvist, ashersky, jot, captain frisk) if I can eliminate 1 from this list then there you go.

Directing town isn't necessarily a scumtrait, it can also be a very protown trait, but it is one that is hard to interpret. At least not without relevant flips.

Frisk's flip would certainly be relevant.

so would yours, so would mine

So would mine?  The more than I think about it, with the situation I posted (the L-3 hammer), we dont need information, we need to be right.  Pushing a lynch for information (something I'm usually 100% behind) is not necessarily something we can afford right now.  It makes the pusher seem more scummy for opportunistically pushing.  I'm going to unvote.  I just realized I'm the only person still on Yuma, not that that matters, but I am feeling less and less confident about my reads as this day continues for forever.

[yuma]

Well the thing is that I have done basically the same thing, but haven't gone outright and said it.

I have town reads on TheMunch, Axxle, Voltgloss and to an extent eevee

so that leaves (Qvist, ashersky, jot, captain frisk) if I can eliminate 1 from this list then there you go.

Directing town isn't necessarily a scumtrait, it can also be a very protown trait, but it is one that is hard to interpret. At least not without relevant flips.

Frisk's flip would certainly be relevant.

so would yours, so would mine

So would mine?  The more than I think about it, with the situation I posted (the L-3 hammer), we dont need information, we need to be right.  Pushing a lynch for information (something I'm usually 100% behind) is not necessarily something we can afford right now.  It makes the pusher seem more scummy for opportunistically pushing.  I'm going to unvote.  I just realized I'm the only person still on Yuma, not that that matters, but I am feeling less and less confident about my reads as this day continues for forever.

exactly. almost any lynch will provide information. It will obviously provide that person's alignment. It will provide interactions between that person and those voting for him, it will provide interactions between that person and those not voting for him. We can see who that person suspected and who that person voted for. So, yes, we will get information from any lynch, but information alone shouldn't be the reason to lynch.

[Qvist]

Yeah, we definitely need to be right with our kill today. But if I'm not mistaken there's no lynch at all at the end of the day if we can't find an agreement.
And that would be pretty bad, right? So we should find consensus.

[TheMunch]

Yeah, we definitely need to be right with our kill today. But if I'm not mistaken there's no lynch at all at the end of the day if we can't find an agreement.
And that would be pretty bad, right? So we should find consensus.

We have till monday.

[Captain_Frisk]

The results of the game... in graphic form.

[TheMunch]

So what do you think that means, CF?  What do you think this tells us?

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote Count 2-8

Yuma (1) - TheMunch
Eevee (2) - Jotheonah, QVist
Jotheonah (2) - Eevee, Axxle
Ashersky (2) - Captain_Frisk, Yuma
Captain_Frisk (1) - Ashersky

Not Voting (1) - Voltgloss

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

So what do you think that means, CF?  What do you think this tells us?

Observations:

#1 - Everyone wants to kill asher, yet no-one is voting for him.
#2 - Asher and Volt are the only people who are not currently voting for one of their scumreads in this set.
#3 - Volt is by far seen as the towniest
#4 - Axxle is the most ignored.
#5- Asher and Joth agree on NOTHING.  They are the only pair that have no agreements (mainly because everyone who isn't asher agrees that Asher is scummy)
#6 - Eevee and Axxle agree on EVERYTHING.

So some follow up questions:

Volt - why aren't you voting right now?

Asher - do you really think that I'm scum?  Can you explain why my behavior is scummy?  I know that you feel that I may have led you around in a past game, but I think you'll find that was after I had fabricated a claim and had no other option.  Also - just because I've rolled scummy in the past has no bearing on whether or not I would roll scum in this game.

Is anyone else willing to go back and put togehter similar charts / aggreagtions of everyone's scum / town reads from ZM3/4?  I'd do it, but I'm short on wife points right now.

[Eevee]

What do we make of everyone suspecting ashersky?

Doesn't really make me change my mind about joth though. Everyone, we need coordination to make a lynch happen now. Feel especially bad and guilty if you are town - your laziness makes it real easy for mafia to steer us towards a mislynch.

Deadline is looming, and the vote count is all over the place. I want jotheonah gone and strongly urge everyone to consider my case.

[Captain_Frisk]

What do we make of everyone suspecting ashersky?

Doesn't really make me change my mind about joth though. Everyone, we need coordination to make a lynch happen now. Feel especially bad and guilty if you are town - your laziness makes it real easy for mafia to steer us towards a mislynch.

Deadline is looming, and the vote count is all over the place. I want jotheonah gone and strongly urge everyone to consider my case.

Translation: even though I said asher was the most scummy, and I'm on the record as generally agreeing with the philosophy that there are scum in this group, I'd rather lynch my other scum read.

Full case on Joth?

[Voltgloss]

Volt - why aren't you voting right now?

1.  I wanted to see your conclusions first.
2.  I wanted to see if Axxle remained as ignored as he appeared to me when I posted my reads.
3.  I wanted to confirm that everyone wants to lynch ash.

Vote: Axxle

ash is scummy, but appears to be SUCH an easy lynch* that I'm getting more and more uneasy about it.  I especially find it weird that, when pressured, ash announced Axxle/joth as scummy but decided to vote Frisk. 

I would like everyone to go on record with their reads on Axxle.  People are ignoring him, despite others (Qvist, me, now Frisk) commenting explicitly on how people are ignoring him. 

[jotheonah]

On the record, I think Axxle is more likely scumlurker than townlurker but could be either.

[TheMunch]

I had a thought; maybe I am just super preoccupied with the "if we mislynch today, tomorrow is going to suck" but...

There are some cases on a good number of players.  I think for each of these players there is a person that was pushing these cases the most.  My thought is, for each of these pairs (lynch target/wagon pusher) is there one pair specifically where we can be incredibly sure that the wagon pusher is scum if the lynch target flips town? 

[Captain_Frisk]

I had a thought; maybe I am just super preoccupied with the "if we mislynch today, tomorrow is going to suck" but...

There are some cases on a good number of players.  I think for each of these players there is a person that was pushing these cases the most.  My thought is, for each of these pairs (lynch target/wagon pusher) is there one pair specifically where we can be incredibly sure that the wagon pusher is scum if the lynch target flips town?

Nope

[TheMunch]

Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Captain_Frisk

All I'm saying is that town can drive an incorrect wagon just as hard as scum can.

[Axxle]

Im vla till sunday which is the cause of some lurking.

[TheMunch]

Vote: Captain_Frisk

All I'm saying is that town can drive an incorrect wagon just as hard as scum can.

I dont think we disagree on that point.  Both town and scum can drive wagons.  I'm asking the question: is there a wagon where the person that drove it is more likely to be scum if the person they are driving flips town?  Which acknowledges that both town/scum can drive an incorrect wagon while attempting to choose a lynch target where if we mislynch we can know better where 1 scum is.

[ashersky]

Volt - why aren't you voting right now?

1.  I wanted to see your conclusions first.
2.  I wanted to see if Axxle remained as ignored as he appeared to me when I posted my reads.
3.  I wanted to confirm that everyone wants to lynch ash.

Vote: Axxle

ash is scummy, but appears to be SUCH an easy lynch* that I'm getting more and more uneasy about it.  I especially find it weird that, when pressured, ash announced Axxle/joth as scummy but decided to vote Frisk. 

I would like everyone to go on record with their reads on Axxle.  People are ignoring him, despite others (Qvist, me, now Frisk) commenting explicitly on how people are ignoring him.

On Axxle: I literally need to do a reread to get detailed opinions on him (which I don't have time for this holiday weekend), as he just doesn't stick out in any way.  That flying under the radar for so long does feel scummy.  He popped in to say he's got IRL V/LA though, but...I mean I just have nothing on him even from before.

That's scummy, I think.

As for voting Frisk, I've given my reasons often.  Not everyone may agree, but at least it's not random or sheeping.

[Eevee]

What do we make of everyone suspecting ashersky?

Doesn't really make me change my mind about joth though. Everyone, we need coordination to make a lynch happen now. Feel especially bad and guilty if you are town - your laziness makes it real easy for mafia to steer us towards a mislynch.

Deadline is looming, and the vote count is all over the place. I want jotheonah gone and strongly urge everyone to consider my case.

Translation: even though I said asher was the most scummy, and I'm on the record as generally agreeing with the philosophy that there are scum in this group, I'd rather lynch my other scum read.

Full case on Joth?

Bad translation. I still have faith in people getting behind joth, if not I'm very willing to contribute to either Axxle or ashersky lynch. I've posted my thoughts on joth so often now :/

[Captain_Frisk]

Do you see how this makes you look like scum trying to set up 2 mislynchrs?

[Captain_Frisk]

Was directed at the munch.

[TheMunch]

Do you see how this makes you look like scum trying to set up 2 mislynchrs?

I left it as an open question.  You stifled discussion.  Which do you think is scummier?

[TheMunch]

Ok, now we have 2 days to decide on a lynch.

[Eevee]

here's my number, lynch joth maybe.

[jotheonah]

Ok, now we have 2 days to decide on a lynch.

Eevee? Or ashersky?

Lets do the everyone lists lynch preferences top to bottom thing, maybe?

[TheMunch]

Ok, now we have 2 days to decide on a lynch.

Eevee? Or ashersky?

Lets do the everyone lists lynch preferences top to bottom thing, maybe?

I like this idea

1.  CF - He is really starting to scare me.  I am becoming increasingly sold on the theory that he is scum trying to drive town.
2.  Eevee - Unlike Yuma, his interactions today have not really increased my scum reads on him.
3.  Ashersky - He lost the town cred I gave him when I realized he acted the same way even when scum.  I dont like the way hes been dodging discussion even when present.
4.  Axxle - I'm going to sheep Volts read here.
5.  Yuma - Still up there on my scum reads but his interactions after he didn't get lynched have me very confused.  I really thought I had something with "Scum isn't hammering" but I am becoming frustratingly unsure.
6.  Joth - Joth is one that is a mystery to me.  I want to draw conclusions on Joth based on today/tonights flip.  Ask me again tomorrow.
7.  Qvist - See 6.
8.  Volt - Super towny to me.
9.  Munch - Obvtown.

[Eevee]

TheMunch, my interactions havent increased your scum read on me today.. yet i'm #2 on your list?

My drunken list, most willing to lynch to least willing to lynvh.
1. Joth
2. Ash
3. Axxle
4. Qvist
5. Frisk
6. munch
7. yuma
8. me


I probably forgot someone, but drunk yes yes.

[TheMunch]

TheMunch, my interactions havent increased your scum read on me today.. yet i'm #2 on your list?

My drunken list, most willing to lynch to least willing to lynvh.
1. Joth
2. Ash
3. Axxle
4. Qvist
5. Frisk
6. munch
7. yuma
8. me


I probably forgot someone, but drunk yes yes.

Sorry meant to say decreased; unlike what I noted in Yuma where his interactions have me confused, I still think you are scum (or at least I am less confused but could be equally wrong )

[Eevee]

I just dont get it. Originally you suspected me for defending yuma, i'm yet to see much other case and "eevee is scum because yuma is scum" is ofc a lousy reason to vote for me.

[TheMunch]

I just dont get it. Originally you suspected me for defending yuma, i'm yet to see much other case and "eevee is scum because yuma is scum" is ofc a lousy reason to vote for me.

I acknowledged my sleep deprived crusade was initially driven by the Yuma eevee scum pair.  However it was the way you defended yourself that rang scum independent of yumas alignment.

[jotheonah]

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

On my phone only (til deadline). So not elaborating, but I think I've explained most of these reads anyway.

[Eevee]

Everything about joth is just so scummy. Barring power role results, I doubt I'll ever get this strong of a scum read with this little information.

[ashersky]

1. Frisk
2. Yuma
3. Axxle
4. TheMunch
5. Joth
6. Qvist
7. Eevee
8. Voltgloss
9. Ashersky

Axxle slid up after Volt pointed out how he's slid by all day.  The whole middle is all sort of interchangeable.  Top scum and town reads are clear, though.

[TheMunch]

Everything about joth is just so scummy. Barring power role results, I doubt I'll ever get this strong of a scum read with this little information.

What about his list is scummy?  Other than omgus for putting you first

[TheMunch]

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

On my phone only (til deadline). So not elaborating, but I think I've explained most of these reads anyway.

Why am I not on your list?

[Eevee]

Everything about joth is just so scummy. Barring power role results, I doubt I'll ever get this strong of a scum read with this little information.

What about his list is scummy?  Other than omgus for putting you first

I think suspecting yuma is sort of scummy (or mistaken townie or im wrong), i think suspecting me is sort of scummy (or mistaken townie), i think continuously listing ashersky at the top of suspicion list but never really pursuing his lynch or voting for him is sort of scummy. Ifk, Joth is a guy who usually gives me a town read at some point. I cant even explain most of my bad feeling about him in this game, but I definitely think it's very likely he is scum.

[Qvist]

Ok, the deadline comes near and I really hope that we find consensus.

1.) Captain_Frisk
2.) Eevee
3.) TheMunch
4.) ashersky
5.) Axxle
6.) jotheonah
7.) yuma
8.) Voltgloss

[jotheonah]

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

On my phone only (til deadline). So not elaborating, but I think I've explained most of these reads anyway.

Why am I not on your list?

I referenced your list for the player list and it was omitted.

I put you right in the middle between Axxle and Qvist.

[Voltgloss]

Lynch preferences, from "most preferred" to "least preferred":

1. Axxle
2. ashersky

3. Joth
4. Qvist
5. CF

6. Eevee
7. Munch
8. yuma

9. Volt


3/4/5 are all very close together in terms of preference.  6/7/8 are also all very close together.

[Eevee]

Volt and I really seem to see eye to eye. It has me slightly worried because of what Frisk said about how easy it is to win my trust in their blitz mafia QT, but I still think it's more likely he is town.

We are getting so close to the deadline, maybe I should be switching my vote to Axxle or something to make a lynch more likely. I don't like how much power mafia has over todays very important lynch target though. Seriously, we are making a mislynch or nolynch rather easy for mafia with this inactivity.

Volt and others who agree on my joth suspicion, would you be willing to vote for him and if not, should I then change to axxle or ashersky?

[Axxle]

This list thing reeks of a scum plan.  Who suggested it?

[Axxle]

Vote: Joth

[Eevee]

This list thing reeks of a scum plan.  Who suggested it?

Elaborate please.

[yuma]

This list thing reeks of a scum plan.  Who suggested it?

I agree, or rather I don't think that the assembling of these lists and then trying to find a player that the most people agree on lynching, to push a lynch through, has ever hit scum. They always hit town.

I am back from Thanksgiving vacation.

My vote stays on ash. But something that I mentioned before is a bit concerning to me, and that is that both ash and jot have me as their #2 suspect. Because of this, I believe that, if they are scum, they may be trying to set me up to be the townie lynch tomorrow if we hit town today. This is especially true if my vote is on the a townie who gets lynched, as a lynch on me tomorrow at that point could easily be pushed through.

So as a townie I want to play cautiously and make as sure as I can that my reads are right and that I do vote for scum. But I don't want to play so cautiously that it hampers my effectiveness at scum hunting...

So yeah, vote stays on ash.

[jotheonah]

This list thing reeks of a scum plan.  Who suggested it?

You're right of course. We should have gone with your master plan of lurking our way to a no lynch instead.

[Axxle]

This list thing reeks of a scum plan.  Who suggested it?

Elaborate please.

It lets scum tweak there reads to the rest of the town, allows them to target obvtown more easily with their night kill, and not allow a natural wagon to form.

[Axxle]

*their

[Eevee]

Okay. It also puts scum on the record of their suspicions though. We just pretty much need to lynch scum for that to be useful..

[ashersky]

This list thing reeks of a scum plan.  Who suggested it?

Elaborate please.

It lets scum tweak there reads to the rest of the town, allows them to target obvtown more easily with their night kill, and not allow a natural wagon to form.

Is that how you used it?  Thinking like scum is a scumtell, I think.  I hadn't thought of this at all.

[Axxle]

This list thing reeks of a scum plan.  Who suggested it?

Elaborate please.

It lets scum tweak there reads to the rest of the town, allows them to target obvtown more easily with their night kill, and not allow a natural wagon to form.

Is that how you used it?  Thinking like scum is a scumtell, I think.  I hadn't thought of this at all.

I think like scum as town all the time, it's what gets me mislynched most often.

[ashersky]

I think like scum as town all the time, it's what gets me mislynched most often.

Ha, I sound like scum as town all the time, it's what gets me mislynched more often than you.

[jotheonah]

I'm fine lynching either of these admittedly scummy-sounding folks.

[Axxle]

I am scum you should lynch me.

ok

[Axxle]

I am scum you should lynch me.

ok

/joke
... kinda

[TheMunch]

I'm worried about a no lynch.

[Eevee]

I'm worried about a no lynch.

Me too, or scum only contributing if the lynch is going to hit a townie.

[Eevee]

That's why I'm wary of saying "yeah ashersky qvist axxle or joth i dont care", and would rather just have it be joth.

[TheMunch]

I just dont know how to get us to a consensus.  There are so many different camps that have formed that people are convinced they have found scum.

[Captain_Frisk]

Can someone who has time put together the cross suspicion charts for zm4 and zm5?

Trying to see if there are patterns to be identified.

[ashersky]

Eevee (2) - Jotheonah, QVist
Jotheonah (2) - Eevee, Axxle
Ashersky (2) - Captain_Frisk, Yuma
Captain_Frisk (2) - Ashersky, TheMunch
Axxle (1) - Voltgloss



I think that's the latest.

[TheMunch]

Ok everyone back the F&@# up, I'm about to do some science!

From Diagram I took all of the 2 scum reads from each:

(player) - (scum/reads)
----------------------
Joth - Ash / Eevee
Eevee - Ash / Joth
Axxle - Ash / Joth
Asher - Axxle / Joth
Volt - Asher / Axle

Volt was one of the more towniest and I have agreed that Volt has been looking pretty towny to me.  So lets go forward with our volt-is-town-cap on.

Conclusions:
1) Neither Ash/Axxle/Joth -OR- Ash/Eevee/Joth are scum trios:
     In both cases, 2 of the scum trio fingered both of their hypothetical scumbuddies which I find highly unlikely.
2) Neither Ash/Axxle/Eevee -OR- Axxle/Joth/Eevee are scum trios:
     Note how in each of these scum trios, the hypothetical scum trio would have all fingered the other hypothetical town.  If this town gets linched (Joth and Ash respectively) and flips town, then we have 3 people who were all sold he was scum.
3)  It is not the case that Ash/Axxle/Eevee/Joth are all town.
     Or at least if they are all town then we are screwed because we have 4 town whose top scum reads are all on other town.

So this leaves us with 1 or 2 scum in this bunch.  I like those odds.  Vote: Ash

[ashersky]

Ok everyone back the F&@# up, I'm about to do some science!

From Diagram I took all of the 2 scum reads from each:

(player) - (scum/reads)
----------------------
Joth - Ash / Eevee
Eevee - Ash / Joth
Axxle - Ash / Joth
Asher - Axxle / Joth
Volt - Asher / Axle

Volt was one of the more towniest and I have agreed that Volt has been looking pretty towny to me.  So lets go forward with our volt-is-town-cap on.

Conclusions:
1) Neither Ash/Axxle/Joth -OR- Ash/Eevee/Joth are scum trios:
     In both cases, 2 of the scum trio fingered both of their hypothetical scumbuddies which I find highly unlikely.
2) Neither Ash/Axxle/Eevee -OR- Axxle/Joth/Eevee are scum trios:
     Note how in each of these scum trios, the hypothetical scum trio would have all fingered the other hypothetical town.  If this town gets linched (Joth and Ash respectively) and flips town, then we have 3 people who were all sold he was scum.
3)  It is not the case that Ash/Axxle/Eevee/Joth are all town.
     Or at least if they are all town then we are screwed because we have 4 town whose top scum reads are all on other town.

So this leaves us with 1 or 2 scum in this bunch.  I like those odds.  Vote: Ash

I feel like this is helpful in some ways, but not in others (plus, it's just info, not analysis).  We start looking at odds and math and start ignoring what people are posting...that hurts town.

And why just the top 2 scum reads?  Why not three?

I'm good with my Frisk vote.  The guy continues to completely get a pass for his town-leading, self-clearing behavior.  And he's doing it with no analysis, just info.

[jotheonah]

vote: ashersky works for me.

[Eevee]

ashersky, as I said I think it's very possible Frisk is mafia. However, it's fairly obvious he isn't going to get lynched today, so if you are town you shouldn't be content keeping your vote on him unless you think you can convince enough people he is the best lynch in a time frame this short. Seems like an ok place to keep your vote on if you are scum though, regardless of Frisk's alignment.

[ashersky]

vote: ashersky works for me.

That's L-1.  I'm VT guys.  I breadcrumbed this here:

CF's lynch my list is a scum gambit for the win, I believe.  He's been trying to lead town in the way he loves as mafia, and he's trying to again.

Eevee's vote was bad town play, I think.  Town v. Town there.

Yuma's survival has not given me a townier read than before, but his posts have stayed consistent throughout.  When we were scum together before, I think he was more meticulous, so I think his posting does gain him some towncred.

I don't like the cases on Eevee, and don't share your opinion on him.  Pretty sure I've been anti-Eevee-lynch all this time.

Vote: Captain_Frisk.

VLA for Thanksgiving.

Also, the lurker lynch thing will continue to discriminate against those of us living outside the majority time zones of everyone else.  I am contributing reads, and votes.  Nothing else I can do in my role here.

And here:

This.

Lurker ash and "man he feels scummy" are the top reasons for voting me.  I can't do much about the first and I don't have an answer to the second, as seen in all games I play.

I have given my own analysis and reasoning for votes, and who I would and wouldn't vote for.  I feel like that has to be helpful to the town.  What else can I provide?

PPE -- I forgot Axxle.  Null read there.

PPE at Eevee.  I'd vote my #2 scumread, but the yuma wagon (suspiciously!) died.  So #3 was Axxle, so Vote: Axxle.  Voltgloss is voting him, and sees the scummy lurker bit clearly, so I feel okay with that.  Definitely better than no lynch.

[Eevee]

Interesting, I still think joth is our best shot, but am sort of leaning towards Axxle over ashersky. Need to mull it over though.

[jotheonah]

Eevee won't hammer his partner. Big surprise. This is the guy who has been lecturing me about FOSsing ash but not voting.

[Eevee]

Eevee won't hammer his partner. Big surprise. This is the guy who has been lecturing me about FOSsing ash but not voting.

So you'd prefer if i hammered him now?

[Eevee]

I do see why you are frustrated at me though 

[TheMunch]

Eevee won't hammer his partner. Big surprise. This is the guy who has been lecturing me about FOSsing ash but not voting.

So you'd prefer if i hammered him now?

Is he right that you wont hammer your scumbuddy?

[yuma]

why breadcrumb VT?

[Eevee]

Eevee won't hammer his partner. Big surprise. This is the guy who has been lecturing me about FOSsing ash but not voting.

So you'd prefer if i hammered him now?

Is he right that you wont hammer your scumbuddy?

When did you stop beating your wife?

I am not scum. I dont yet know if I'll hammer ashersky or not, definitely waiting to see what tomorrow brings at least. I know i'd prefer joth, not sure if ibthink axxle would be better too.

[ashersky]

why breadcrumb VT?

I have been a target for awhile this day, and I was afraid it'd get to this point.  Getting mislynched sucks, and we're not in a position to absorb a mislynch easily, either.  I've had trouble convincing town that I'm town in my all my games, so I figured anything that could help would be worth trying.

[yuma]

why breadcrumb VT?

I have been a target for awhile this day, and I was afraid it'd get to this point.  Getting mislynched sucks, and we're not in a position to absorb a mislynch easily, either.  I've had trouble convincing town that I'm town in my all my games, so I figured anything that could help would be worth trying.

hmmm.... I guess breadcrumbing in general just isn't my favorite because scum can do it just as easily as town. I guess what I am saying is that your breadcrumb doesn't make your claim any more believable than  without it...

So both ash and I are claiming VT. From my understanding of the setup we started with 3 mafia, 1 SK, 3 PRs and 6 VTs. There have already been 2 VTs killed, meaning that if both ash and I are telling the truth there are only 2 VTs.... I don't think it would be a good time for any other VTs to jump out and claim as that would make the 2 PRs easy targets for night kills and to get back into this game we need to lynch scum tonight and have power roles be effective. But it was good for my head to work through the question of whether or not it would be worthwhile for them to claim.

[ashersky]

why breadcrumb VT?

I have been a target for awhile this day, and I was afraid it'd get to this point.  Getting mislynched sucks, and we're not in a position to absorb a mislynch easily, either.  I've had trouble convincing town that I'm town in my all my games, so I figured anything that could help would be worth trying.

hmmm.... I guess breadcrumbing in general just isn't my favorite because scum can do it just as easily as town. I guess what I am saying is that your breadcrumb doesn't make your claim any more believable than  without it...

So both ash and I are claiming VT. From my understanding of the setup we started with 3 mafia, 1 SK, 3 PRs and 6 VTs. There have already been 2 VTs killed, meaning that if both ash and I are telling the truth there are only 2 VTs.... I don't think it would be a good time for any other VTs to jump out and claim as that would make the 2 PRs easy targets for night kills and to get back into this game we need to lynch scum tonight and have power roles be effective. But it was good for my head to work through the question of whether or not it would be worthwhile for them to claim.

Fair point on breadcrumbing.  I thought it couldn't hurt to try, since I haven't been doing so great surviving as town otherwise.

Fully agree with yuma's second point on VTs as well.

[jotheonah]

So Yuma, you believe ash's claim?

[yuma]

So Yuma, you believe ash's claim?

No I don't think I do. That is why I am still voting for him.

[yuma]

well I am out for the night.

I will be on for a few minutes in the morning to unlock MXVI and if I have time I'll post here, but I can't guarantee anything, I was hoping to see more activity tonight, but alas.

[Axxle]

Ash's claim is hilariously believable. Crumbing VT? Who else but Ashersky?!

[Qvist]

Top 1 Mentions
3x CF, jotheonah, Eevee, Axxle

Top 2 Mentions
3x CF, 3x Eevee, 2x yuma, 2x ashersky, jotheonah, Axxle

Top 3 Mentions
4x ashersky, 3x CF, 3x Eevee, 3x Axxle, 2x yuma, 2x jotheonah, TheMunch

[Qvist]

Ok everyone back the F&@# up, I'm about to do some science!

From Diagram I took all of the 2 scum reads from each:

(player) - (scum/reads)
----------------------
Joth - Ash / Eevee
Eevee - Ash / Joth
Axxle - Ash / Joth
Asher - Axxle / Joth
Volt - Asher / Axle

Volt was one of the more towniest and I have agreed that Volt has been looking pretty towny to me.  So lets go forward with our volt-is-town-cap on.

Conclusions:
1) Neither Ash/Axxle/Joth -OR- Ash/Eevee/Joth are scum trios:
     In both cases, 2 of the scum trio fingered both of their hypothetical scumbuddies which I find highly unlikely.
2) Neither Ash/Axxle/Eevee -OR- Axxle/Joth/Eevee are scum trios:
     Note how in each of these scum trios, the hypothetical scum trio would have all fingered the other hypothetical town.  If this town gets linched (Joth and Ash respectively) and flips town, then we have 3 people who were all sold he was scum.
3)  It is not the case that Ash/Axxle/Eevee/Joth are all town.
     Or at least if they are all town then we are screwed because we have 4 town whose top scum reads are all on other town.

So this leaves us with 1 or 2 scum in this bunch.  I like those odds.  Vote: Ash

Why did you ignore me? And why did you ignore the lists? CF was voted top scrum read 3 times. I don't know where you get your data from!

[Qvist]

ashersky is my No. 4, so I feel tempted to hammer. But he now claimed VT which worries me a little.

I'm worried about a no lynch.

That's the problem. But I'm worried about a mislynch too.

Axxle made an interesting point about the Voting being a plan of Mafia. Assuming this is true:
I think Mafia has most control if they vote after a lot have voted so they have more control which townie to mislynch.
Axxle, yuma and Captain_Frisk haven't voted yet.

CF is my top scum read, he hasn't voted yet and I'm currently still voting for Eevee. So I again switch back to Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

The fact that my town reads are voting me is very disturbing.

[Eevee]

6.5 hours to go if I'm not mistaken. I'll be on mobile access until the deadline, will be able to vote at minimum.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm at dentist. Back at computer in an hour or so.

My big problem is that my scum reads agree with me, and my toe reads don't

I think I want eevee or joth lynch.

[Eevee]

I'm at dentist. Back at computer in an hour or so.

My big problem is that my scum reads agree with me, and my toe reads don't

I think I want eevee or joth lynch.

Oh? Well, read our back and forth a couple pages back, should help deciding. Mind explaining how you got to picking between us? After the dentist is ofc fine.

[yuma]

I'm at dentist. Back at computer in an hour or so.

My big problem is that my scum reads agree with me, and my toe reads don't

I think I want eevee or joth lynch.

I kinda do as well; he certainly hasn't been my top scum read of the day (Qvist and ash get that award) but his interactions with other players, his bandwagon onto me and some of the things Eevee and others have outlined.

vote: jotheonah

I felt confident about ash until this morning. I don't really know what changed, but I really hope it isn't me second guessing myself Galzria-style (hmmm, sounds like a funny parody video of Gangam-style)

I am off to rotations, so this will be my last post of the day.

[Captain_Frisk]

Heeeeeeyyy. Scummy laaaaadies

[Qvist]

The fact that my town reads are voting me is very disturbing.

...said scum right before changing his vote?
3 ranked you as their #1 pick of lynching and I'm the only one voting for you currently. Really?


I'm really worried about a No Lynch guys. Especially after yuma made it harder to lynch tonight.
I probably won't be able to be online at deadline, so I will vote in about 2 hours.

This is the current inofficial vote count:

jotheonah (3) - Eevee, Axxle, yuma
ashersky (3) - Captain_Frisk, TheMunch, jotheonah
Axxle (2) - Voltgloss, ashersky
Captain_Frisk (1) - Qvist

None of Axxle, ashersky and jotheonah are my preferred lynches. They are ranked #4-#6 in my scum rating, basically equally scummy. This will be a hard decision.
I don't know what to do here. A mislynch will be horrible, but a No Lynch too.

[TheMunch]

@yuma: I cant decide if what you did was scummy but I can say for certain that that is terrible town play at best.  I understand we all have obligations in real life but sticking down a vote on someone who I think doesn't have a chance to get lynched reads as "I'm ok with a no lynch."  I'm just not sure man...

@Qvist:  It doesn't strike you as the least bit odd that EVERYONE thinks CF is scummy?  If Everyone thinks CF is scummy that includes scum.  This could be seen as scum pushing a towny for a mislynch or fingering their scum buddy for some cred.  I would agree that CF looks fishy but I think I want to see a flip before I lynch him as the "everyone thinks CF is scummy" can be seen in more than one way.

[Eevee]

How does joth have no chance to get lynched? He is at L-2!

[jotheonah]

Should I claim? L/a today and deadline is getting close.

[Captain_Frisk]

My problem with Jonah is that 2 of my "scummy 5" theory are already voting for him.

[Eevee]

I also think generally being suspected but not voted is a scum tell. But I definitely see joth lynch as a possibility and will basically just lobby for it until the wagon fizzles or he gets lynched or there is less than one hour until the deadline (at which point I'll re-evaluate our options).

[TheMunch]

Should I claim? L/a today and deadline is getting close.

NO CLAIMING!

[Eevee]

I don't see a problem with joth claiming. I actually doubt he'll get nightkilled either way because he is suspected so much and scum likes their wifom (unless he is the cop and we lynch someone else who turns out to be the cop switch or something).

[Eevee]

Should I claim? L/a today and deadline is getting close.

NO CLAIMING!

Oh. Why?

[Captain_Frisk]

I also think generally being suspected but not voted is a scum tell. But I definitely see joth lynch as a possibility and will basically just lobby for it until the wagon fizzles or he gets lynched or there is less than one hour until the deadline (at which point I'll re-evaluate our options).

Does that mean you'd be willing to move over to Asher?

[TheMunch]

Should I claim? L/a today and deadline is getting close.

NO CLAIMING!

Oh. Why?

In general I think it is a bad idea.  Although for this game specifically I have already made a post early about why claiming is nonsense with all the switches off.  This was in response to Yuma's VT claim.  Short version:  At best, it lets scum know our power roles before we can gain any information.  But I will also sheep Yuma a bit here cause I think he had the right of it: with two VTs claiming, pretending that only town is claiming, then eventually we will run into too many VT's claiming, maybe there are counterclaims, maybe we out our PRs.  Either way its a bad idea.  I think if Joth claimed PR and he was actually a PR, scum would for sure kill him instead of keeping him alive just to raise suspicions, but thats my gut feeling.  No matter what, its either going to be lies or outed PRs and thats something that is incredibly terrible.

[Captain_Frisk]

Should I claim? L/a today and deadline is getting close.

NO CLAIMING!

Oh. Why?

In general I think it is a bad idea.  Although for this game specifically I have already made a post early about why claiming is nonsense with all the switches off.  This was in response to Yuma's VT claim.  Short version:  At best, it lets scum know our power roles before we can gain any information.  But I will also sheep Yuma a bit here cause I think he had the right of it: with two VTs claiming, pretending that only town is claiming, then eventually we will run into too many VT's claiming, maybe there are counterclaims, maybe we out our PRs.  Either way its a bad idea.  I think if Joth claimed PR and he was actually a PR, scum would for sure kill him instead of keeping him alive just to raise suspicions, but thats my gut feeling.  No matter what, its either going to be lies or outed PRs and thats something that is incredibly terrible.

Ummmm... the munch for sure its better to force scum to NK Joth than lynch him right now?

[Eevee]

I also think generally being suspected but not voted is a scum tell. But I definitely see joth lynch as a possibility and will basically just lobby for it until the wagon fizzles or he gets lynched or there is less than one hour until the deadline (at which point I'll re-evaluate our options).

Does that mean you'd be willing to move over to Asher?

Saying "yes" would kind of derail the joth-wagon don't you think? I'm saying I don't think nolynch is good here.

[Qvist]

@Qvist:  It doesn't strike you as the least bit odd that EVERYONE thinks CF is scummy?  If Everyone thinks CF is scummy that includes scum.  This could be seen as scum pushing a towny for a mislynch or fingering their scum buddy for some cred.  I would agree that CF looks fishy but I think I want to see a flip before I lynch him as the "everyone thinks CF is scummy" can be seen in more than one way.

Huh? If everyone would think that CF is scummy than we wouldn't be in that position. Eevee and Voltgloss has him at #5 and jotheonah at #6. What I meant was directed at you and ashersky. So I make it more direct as it seemed not understandable.
@TheMunch and ashersky? Why don't you vote for Captain_Frisk? But I don't expect that Captain_Frisk gets killed tonight because beside of us 3 there seem no-one willing to vote for him.

[jotheonah]

Well then I won't clAim ... Yet anyway. I think the case against me seems pretty insubstantial, though.

[Captain_Frisk]

I also think generally being suspected but not voted is a scum tell. But I definitely see joth lynch as a possibility and will basically just lobby for it until the wagon fizzles or he gets lynched or there is less than one hour until the deadline (at which point I'll re-evaluate our options).

Does that mean you'd be willing to move over to Asher?

Saying "yes" would kind of derail the joth-wagon don't you think? I'm saying I don't think nolynch is good here.

Well - they are both at L-2.  If you move, that puts ash at L-1.... closer to lynch than no lynch I would think.

[Captain_Frisk]

Actually, I'm going to trust the crumb.

Vote: Joth

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 2-9

Jotheonah (4) - Eevee, Axxle, Yuma, Captain_Frisk
Ashersky (2) - TheMunch, Jotheonah
Axxle (2) - Voltgloss, Ashersky
Captain_Frisk (1) - QVist

Not Voting (0)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

[Captain_Frisk]

And yes Joth, i think you should claim.  The munch is high on special brownies.

[Eevee]

floorball game, then trying desperately to win the ex girlfriend back. unlikely to change my vote though, and i'm sure i'll be able to check in some. probably back on computer 30min or so before the deadline too, not sure.

[jotheonah]

I'm the doctor. I didn't breadcrumb it because I don't really believe in breadcrumbs. Last night I doctored Volt because he was my strongest town read.

[Qvist]

jotheonah, I think you should claim too.
There's only 1 hour left until I cast my final vote.
And I'm tempted to risk the hammer because a No Lynch is guaranteed horrible while a lynch is only a possible mislynch.

[Qvist]

Forget it. I was ninja'd. I have to think about that.

[TheMunch]

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

Did you just hammer a town PR?

[jotheonah]

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

[TheMunch]

Thought he was l 2.  Who put him l 1?

[Captain_Frisk]

Well guys, if Joth is who he says he is, and the munch is town, we've just lost the game, because i'm opening tomorrow with a vote on him.

[Captain_Frisk]

Thought he was l 2.  Who put him l 1?

I did.  I even called it out?  There's also a vote count at the top of the page.

[Qvist]

Thought he was l 2.  Who put him l 1?

Wow, I can't believe this. I hope this isn't a mislynch or we just lost the game.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well guys, if Joth is who he says he is, and the munch is town, we've just lost the game, because i'm opening tomorrow with a vote on him.

Actually strike that.  If I'm NK'd - I don't want town to just blindly charge forward with this plan, but BOY am i pissed.

[jotheonah]

Well I'm heading off to get on an airplane. Great play there, the munch.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well I'm heading off to get on an airplane. Great play there, the munch.

Come on joth - are you really the doctor?

[jotheonah]

Yes! I think breadcrbs are stupid because I was definitely hunting for them both times I played as scum. They're NK lightning rods!

[Insomniac]

Thread locked. (Hammering while I eat breakfast  )

[Insomniac]

The assortment of people at the resort were in dissarray, they needed to hit scum and they needed it bad. After a long days deliberation some people had been put in a noose.

When yuma was in the noose they asked for last words, and through his words he got taken down.
Next ash was in the noose and again the town has second thoughts.
Lastly they put Jo in there he screamed "but I'm the doctor!" and as Frisk was about to take him down the floor below him collapsed, TheMunch said "oops"

The town was livid at TheMunch for kicking the switch to drop the floor, but searching Jo's pockets they found a switch labeled "Vigilante".

Jotheonah, the Mafia Vigilante Switch has been lynched

The town decided to celebrate the victory in having got one of Insomniac's murderers. So the night they drank! Once they were all good and drunk they decided to go to sleep (a safe state to be in with mafia still around for sure)

[Insomniac]

Night actions due by November 28, 8:15am PST or 11:15am EST (forum time)

[Insomniac]

Dawn broke, the town was feeling hopeful, when they sat down to breakfast however their was oatmeal infront of them. They looked to the waiter in disgust, "Sorry, Mr. Insomniac only paid for enough food for 2 nights now we have to provide what is left...oatmeal", the group almost collectively sighed and started eating their food. One seat had remained empty however.

Eevee the Vanilla townie is dead

The mafia had done it this time this was the final straw, the town set out to find another mafia.

Deadline: December 12 2012, 8:20am PST (11:20am forum time)

Thread unlocked

[Captain_Frisk]

That sucks!

[TheMunch]

So I'm alive... thats fun.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

So I'm alive... thats fun.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

Sigh....

First I was going to be shocked that you were actually still alive.  I figured you must be the doctor if you hammered without waiting for counter claim, and thus you must be town.

There are however 2 other options:

1. Mafia thought you must be a crazy townie, and then the real doctor will protect you.
2. You are mafia.

You voting for me points toward #1.

[Voltgloss]

I would suggest we all reread Day 2 through the lens of "joth=scum/Eevee=town" and see what conclusions we can draw.  I'll be doing the same.

In particular, Axxle's presence on joth's wagon has me questioning my scumread on Axxle.  Yes, bussing is a thing, but I'm not so sure that Axxle's vote fits that rubric.  So I'll be rereading with a particular eye to Axxle.  And my other particular eye to someone I lack a well-developed read on:  Qvist.

[TheMunch]

I have tons of IRL work to do so I wont be as thorough until later this evening but there was a case I was going to post on Frisk yesterday but the day ended.  This from yesterday hints at the content:

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

PPE: I will also be reading

[Captain_Frisk]

I would suggest we all reread Day 2 through the lens of "joth=scum/Eevee=town" and see what conclusions we can draw.  I'll be doing the same.

In particular, Axxle's presence on joth's wagon has me questioning my scumread on Axxle.  Yes, bussing is a thing, but I'm not so sure that Axxle's vote fits that rubric.  So I'll be rereading with a particular eye to Axxle.  And my other particular eye to someone I lack a well-developed read on:  Qvist.

Well with my "scummy 5" theory, its gotta be you / Axxle / Asher - and we can afford one mislynch....

[Captain_Frisk]

I have tons of IRL work to do so I wont be as thorough until later this evening but there was a case I was going to post on Frisk yesterday but the day ended.  This from yesterday hints at the content:

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

PPE: I will also be reading

This is a terrible argument.  I promise that if you are town, and continue to tunnel on me, we're going to have a real tough time winning - since we only have 1 mislynch.

[TheMunch]

I would suggest we all reread Day 2 through the lens of "joth=scum/Eevee=town" and see what conclusions we can draw.  I'll be doing the same.

In particular, Axxle's presence on joth's wagon has me questioning my scumread on Axxle.  Yes, bussing is a thing, but I'm not so sure that Axxle's vote fits that rubric.  So I'll be rereading with a particular eye to Axxle.  And my other particular eye to someone I lack a well-developed read on:  Qvist.

Well with my "scummy 5" theory, its gotta be you / Axxle / Asher - and we can afford one mislynch....

You're scummy 5 theory becomes a lot more interesting if you are scum.

PPE: It would be a terrible argument if you your and joths interactions didn't sound terribly rehearsed.

[Voltgloss]

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

Munch, the posts of CF's you cite are actually the key evidence that, in my mind, paints CF as town.  If CF were really joth's scumbuddy, do you think he'd "reveal" their plan in this way AFTER you'd dropped the hammer and there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it?

I think you v. CF is town v. town, with scum lurking on the sidelines deciding which of you to "support" against the other.

May I instead suggest Qvist.  He ALSO "wanted Joth to claim"; he "threatened" to hammer Joth to put "pressure" on him; and then immediately withdrew that threat once Joth fakeclaimed (but BEFORE you hammered).  And then was utterly silent after the hammer fell.

THAT rings my scumalarms.  Not CF. 

CF:  could you explain again your reasoning for excluding Qvist from your "scummy 5" theory?  Does Qvist's behavior after you announced that theory cause you to question that read?

[TheMunch]

@volt:  I would agree that CF wanted his end day actions to resonate as bewildered town.  Joth was already dead.  It would be worse I think for him to take a stance against my hammer than to just play the "I dont even know whats going on!?!" card.  It just felt very disingenuous.

That being said, I agree 100% on Qvist.  If I had to put my money someplace, Qvist is the third scum; I just think my case on Frisk is stronger, and that is the reason why I am going for it.  It is quite true that Qvist was another player very active towards the deadline.  I can definitely see Qvist and CF knowing exactly what the claim was going to be and pushing for it to happen.

Lastly, if CF is scum, then I would guess that his scummy 5 split his team "1 on, 1 off".  We know that Joth was included in his scummy 5 game so I would look for the last scum not in the game.  Not in the game were: Me, Yuma, Eevee, and Qvist.  Eevee is looking pretty town to me right now (hehehe its funny cause he is dead and flipped town) and as such Yuma is looking townier to me as well (although he already was by the end of the day) (second aside: I'm kind of upset I was wrong about yuma/eevee, *sadface*).  That leaves Qvist as the last of the scum trio if CF is scum, which fits very nicely with Qvists scummy participation in the end of the day activity.

[Voltgloss]

Hey Axxle.  You're around.  Thoughts?

ash/Qvist/yuma, we'll need to wait before we hear from (ash due to timezones, yuma due to work, and Qvist mentioned in the Pandemic thread about not being able to update until this evening so I'm assuming he has limited access).

[Axxle]

Phone lurking right now but I like the CF and Qvist arguments. Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

[Captain_Frisk]

CF:  could you explain again your reasoning for excluding Qvist from your "scummy 5" theory?  Does Qvist's behavior after you announced that theory cause you to question that read?

I'll go back and reread, but I excluded him because his tunneling on me on day 1 read way too aggressive to be newbie scum play - just as I view TheMunch's craziness as not plausible scum play.

[Voltgloss]

Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He was.  He posted both shortly before and shortly after Munch's hammer.

[TheMunch]

Phone lurking right now but I like the CF and Qvist arguments. Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He posted 1 minute before I hammered.

[Voltgloss]

Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He was.  He posted both shortly before and shortly after Munch's hammer.

Which, on reread, shows that I was incorrect when I said upthread Qvist was "entirely silent afterwards."  My error, and my apologies.

That said, the comment he made post-hammer - "I hope that wasn't a mislynch or we just lost the game" (paraphrased) - doesn't do anything to change my suspicions.

[TheMunch]

Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He was.  He posted both shortly before and shortly after Munch's hammer.

Which, on reread, shows that I was incorrect when I said upthread Qvist was "entirely silent afterwards."  My error, and my apologies.

That said, the comment he made post-hammer - "I hope that wasn't a mislynch or we just lost the game" (paraphrased) - doesn't do anything to change my suspicions.

Frisk made similar posts.  They actually read very scummy to me.  It is an informational post that is factually true which tries to incorporate "I dont know whether or not this is a mislynch" which ultimately just feels INCREDIBLY forced to me.

[TheMunch]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

[Voltgloss]

Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I have a theory, but don't feel comfortable presenting until after I've completed my reread and confirmed that it makes sense.

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

Or as I answered before - you could be scum.

[TheMunch]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

Or as I answered before - you could be scum.

Cool.  Scum kept me a live cause they thought they could lynch me.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 3-1

Captain_Frisk (1) - TheMunch

Not Voting (6) - Captain_Frisk, Voltgloss, Axxle, Yuma, Ashersky, QVist

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: December 12 2012, 8:20am PST (11:20am forum time)

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

Or as I answered before - you could be scum.

Cool.  Scum kept me a live cause they thought they could lynch me.

I think they kept you alive because you and QVist would be willing to mislynch me.

[Qvist]

Sorry, I just updated Pandemic, but I won't be able to post much here now. Just a few notes.

I really don't know what to think about TheMunch, was it just a horrible town mistake which indeed got lucky hitting the right one? It seems so, but then why didn't he get nightkilled?
And I was willing to hammer him, but after the claim I wanted to check first if joth's claim could made sense. Maybe someone counterclaims. And TheMunch hammered him before I could check anything. I don't know why this looks scummy to you all.

Either way, I have to rethink my suspects. I will post tommorow.

[ashersky]

I have tons of IRL work to do so I wont be as thorough until later this evening but there was a case I was going to post on Frisk yesterday but the day ended.  This from yesterday hints at the content:

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

PPE: I will also be reading

This argument makes no sense to me.  I reread the deadline back-and-forth, especially at Frisk and Munch, given the open to D3.  Here's what I think.

I agree with Voltgloss that this post (and the post hammer stuff) from Frisk makes him seems much townier than before.  I pushed on Frisk pretty hard on D1 and D2, to be honest, but his reaction to the derphammer from Munch was very quick and sincere to me.  I know Munch seems to have a different idea on claiming in general, but Frisk's point about ensuring we don't lynch a PR is completely correct.

Also, with a re-read of the hammer time, TheMunch feigns surprises that it was the hammer, when we all know the VoteCount was just posted at the top of that page.  He says he didn't realize it.  Now, in today's post, he posits that Frisk/Joth were unhappy that they couldn't complete the "draw out the real doctor by fakeclaiming at L-1" plan.  Obviously in retrospect, TheMunch knows it was L-1, but if he's trying to claims his derphammer was used to foil scum!Frisk's plan, why feign the surprise that he was the hammer?

(On a side note, I've argued that derphammers at the right time can be good for town.  I think this one was, actually, in that our true doctor wasn't outed by scum!joth's fake claim.  I don't think, however, that TheMunch did it for that reason.)

So, I think the quick vote on Frisk today by TheMunch is scummy.  I don't know what to think of the derphammer, though, since it did help us by hitting mafia.  It was anti-town at the moment it occurred, but ended up being pro-town by both killing mafia and protecting our doctor.  That's pretty silly if TheMunch is mafia, isn't it?  So I guess that, even with all the scumminess flowing from TheMunch, I find it hard to believe he'd derphammer his teammate at that time.

[ashersky]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I think you are framing the question wrong.  And why do you single out yourself and Voltgloss, anyway?  Seems you are confirming Voltgloss as town...I definitely think he's town, but can't be sure.

The question should be: why did the mafia kill Eevee?  Who did he suspect the most, who did he interact with, who didn't he interact with.  I think that's where we'll find some answers.

[TheMunch]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I think you are framing the question wrong.  And why do you single out yourself and Voltgloss, anyway?  Seems you are confirming Voltgloss as town...I definitely think he's town, but can't be sure.

The question should be: why did the mafia kill Eevee?  Who did he suspect the most, who did he interact with, who didn't he interact with.  I think that's where we'll find some answers.

The Eevee kill actually reeks of mafia set up to me.  I was a huge proponent of the Eevee lynch and with him flipping town, maybe they thought it would make me look worse. 

I think the fact that so many people thought Volt was town would mean Volt was a clear NK target.  Scum should want to kill someone that EVERYONE thinks is town, right?

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I think you are framing the question wrong.  And why do you single out yourself and Voltgloss, anyway?  Seems you are confirming Voltgloss as town...I definitely think he's town, but can't be sure.

The question should be: why did the mafia kill Eevee?  Who did he suspect the most, who did he interact with, who didn't he interact with.  I think that's where we'll find some answers.

The Eevee kill actually reeks of mafia set up to me.  I was a huge proponent of the Eevee lynch and with him flipping town, maybe they thought it would make me look worse. 

I think the fact that so many people thought Volt was town would mean Volt was a clear NK target.  Scum should want to kill someone that EVERYONE thinks is town, right?

The doctor was most likely active last night-so scum probably didn't want to go for obvious kills...

[yuma]

Haven't done a full read through but here are a few things...

1. if it came down to Qvist or Frisk, I would pick Qvist. Hands down. I was suspicious of him day 2 and still am. Intent to hammer means absolutely nothing if you don't.

2. but why are only Qvist and Frisk being discussed? I want to take a good hard look at ash and Volt. Ash is probably still my number 1 scum read. It was really hard for me to abandon that wagon to go to jot.

[yuma]

We are also now to the point where 3 of the 6 VTs are dead, with 2 claimed.... I still don't think this is a point where we would want other VTs to claim (for fear of outing our PRs), but could be worth discussing. Times like these I wish ehunt was still alive to do his theory math.

[TheMunch]

We are also now to the point where 3 of the 6 VTs are dead, with 2 claimed.... I still don't think this is a point where we would want other VTs to claim (for fear of outing our PRs), but could be worth discussing. Times like these I wish ehunt was still alive to do his theory math.

NO ONE CLAIM EVER!

[Axxle]

We are also now to the point where 3 of the 6 VTs are dead, with 2 claimed.... I still don't think this is a point where we would want other VTs to claim (for fear of outing our PRs), but could be worth discussing. Times like these I wish ehunt was still alive to do his theory math.

No way.

[yuma]

We are also now to the point where 3 of the 6 VTs are dead, with 2 claimed.... I still don't think this is a point where we would want other VTs to claim (for fear of outing our PRs), but could be worth discussing. Times like these I wish ehunt was still alive to do his theory math.

NO ONE CLAIM EVER!

My VT claim saved me from getting lynch, a lynch that looked pretty likely up to that point. Your insistance that claims should never happen is ridiculous. Forcing claims out was what won town the game in MIII. (sorry, another game reference for you)

[yuma]

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

jot's list of suspects from the evening before he was lynched... note that it lacks Frisk.

But I do think it is interesting that his scummy reads are eevee (town) me (town) and then ash. You would think that scum would put at least one scum buddy in the top 3 wouldn't you?

[TheMunch]

We are also now to the point where 3 of the 6 VTs are dead, with 2 claimed.... I still don't think this is a point where we would want other VTs to claim (for fear of outing our PRs), but could be worth discussing. Times like these I wish ehunt was still alive to do his theory math.

NO ONE CLAIM EVER!

My VT claim saved me from getting lynch, a lynch that looked pretty likely up to that point. Your insistance that claims should never happen is ridiculous. Forcing claims out was what won town the game in MIII. (sorry, another game reference for you)

You can reference other games, I really dont mind.  As I am in more, I can understand the desire.  However, this doesn't change my mind about claiming.  I will concede that there might be setups where claiming can be particularly breaking but I dont think this is one.  I will continue to insist that claiming is a bad idea.

[TheMunch]

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

jot's list of suspects from the evening before he was lynched... note that it lacks Frisk.

But I do think it is interesting that his scummy reads are eevee (town) me (town) and then ash. You would think that scum would put at least one scum buddy in the top 3 wouldn't you?

I could see that.  I was sold on CF/Qvist.  I'm starting to lean towards CF/Ash as the 2 remaining scum.

[ashersky]

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

jot's list of suspects from the evening before he was lynched... note that it lacks Frisk.

But I do think it is interesting that his scummy reads are eevee (town) me (town) and then ash. You would think that scum would put at least one scum buddy in the top 3 wouldn't you?

It lacks Frisk?  You mean the Frisk listed at #6?  Would scum put at least one scum buddy in the bottom 3?

[Voltgloss]

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

jot's list of suspects from the evening before he was lynched... note that it lacks Frisk.

But I do think it is interesting that his scummy reads are eevee (town) me (town) and then ash. You would think that scum would put at least one scum buddy in the top 3 wouldn't you?

Two things:

1.  joth's list lacks Munch, not Frisk.  [PPE: half-ninja'd by ash]

2.  If joth and ash are both scum, that means they both jumped immediately on the yumawagon that I started, as votes 2 and 3.  I find it somewhat unlikely that scum would act so blatantly in tandem.  Not 100% unlikely, but unlikely enough that I currently have ash as my #3 suspect (behind Qvist and Axxle). 

[Axxle]

We are also now to the point where 3 of the 6 VTs are dead, with 2 claimed.... I still don't think this is a point where we would want other VTs to claim (for fear of outing our PRs), but could be worth discussing. Times like these I wish ehunt was still alive to do his theory math.

NO ONE CLAIM EVER!

My VT claim saved me from getting lynch, a lynch that looked pretty likely up to that point. Your insistance that claims should never happen is ridiculous. Forcing claims out was what won town the game in MIII. (sorry, another game reference for you)

You can reference other games, I really dont mind.  As I am in more, I can understand the desire.  However, this doesn't change my mind about claiming.  I will concede that there might be setups where claiming can be particularly breaking but I dont think this is one.  I will continue to insist that claiming is a bad idea.

We can massclaim if we lynch scum today and our PR doesn't get killed.

[yuma]

yes munch, not frisk

[Voltgloss]

The flipside question that I'm wrestling with:  How likely is a scumteam of joth-Qvist-Axxle, given their failing to get town lynched on Day 2?  Especially with both yuma and ash having been likely targets?

I'm trying to answer this during my reread.  I welcome others' thoughts on the subject.

[Axxle]

We can massclaim if we lynch scum today and our PR doesn't get killed.

Actually if this happens, the cop should just claim and the doctor should just protect him every day while the cop investigates people.

[Axxle]

The flipside question that I'm wrestling with:  How likely is a scumteam of joth-Qvist-Axxle, given their failing to get town lynched on Day 2?  Especially with both yuma and ash having been likely targets?

I'm trying to answer this during my reread.  I welcome others' thoughts on the subject.

I would have totally lynched yuma as scum and lined up Eevee as the mislynch since he "knew" yuma was town.

[Axxle]

Going to check the yuma wagon for scum, one sec.

[Voltgloss]

Going to check the yuma wagon for scum, one sec.

ash got to L-1 as well, didn't he?  Could you check that wagon also?

[ashersky]

Can we discuss Axxle some?  There was definite heat on him for lurking yesterday, and he's quickposted a few things today from his phone, but no substance.  Just "liked" the CF and Qvist arguments, and said no way to claiming.

Has he had any analytic posts this game?

PPE lots, including from Axxle.

The flipside question that I'm wrestling with:  How likely is a scumteam of joth-Qvist-Axxle, given their failing to get town lynched on Day 2?  Especially with both yuma and ash having been likely targets?

I'm trying to answer this during my reread.  I welcome others' thoughts on the subject.

Best guess here is they were fishing for roles?  They'd want to hit a PR, I think, either through mislynch or POE at night.  Qvist is new, and I don't know scum!Axxle, but scum!joth is definitely smart enough to hatch a plan like that, I think.

We can massclaim if we lynch scum today and our PR doesn't get killed.

Actually if this happens, the cop should just claim and the doctor should just protect him every day while the cop investigates people.

Your plan sounds flawed to me.  If we massclaimed, the cop would have already claimed.  You've only got WIFOM to try to keep one of the two PRs alive, but most likely we lose the doctor.  If cop didn't catch scum that night, and we mislynch, cop is gone the next night.

I mean, it might be worth the risk?  But I'd need some convincing to be done by some others here.

[Axxle]

Galz lynch: Captain_Frisk, eHunt, Galzria, Jotheonah, TheMunch, yuma

ash wagon: Captain_Frisk, Yuma, TheMunch, jotheonah

yuma wagon: Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky

joth lynch: Eevee, Axxle, Yuma, Captain_Frisk, TheMunch


I'm actually not trusting ash's breadcrumbs as much anymore since I notice he placed them during Day 2, plenty of time for scum tactics to take effect:

vote: ashersky works for me.

That's L-1.  I'm VT guys.  I breadcrumbed this here:

CF's lynch my list is a scum gambit for the win, I believe.  He's been trying to lead town in the way he loves as mafia, and he's trying to again.

Eevee's vote was bad town play, I think.  Town v. Town there.

Yuma's survival has not given me a townier read than before, but his posts have stayed consistent throughout.  When we were scum together before, I think he was more meticulous, so I think his posting does gain him some towncred.

I don't like the cases on Eevee, and don't share your opinion on him.  Pretty sure I've been anti-Eevee-lynch all this time.

Vote: Captain_Frisk.

VLA for Thanksgiving.

Also, the lurker lynch thing will continue to discriminate against those of us living outside the majority time zones of everyone else.  I am contributing reads, and votes.  Nothing else I can do in my role here.

And here:

This.

Lurker ash and "man he feels scummy" are the top reasons for voting me.  I can't do much about the first and I don't have an answer to the second, as seen in all games I play.

I have given my own analysis and reasoning for votes, and who I would and wouldn't vote for.  I feel like that has to be helpful to the town.  What else can I provide?

PPE -- I forgot Axxle.  Null read there.

PPE at Eevee.  I'd vote my #2 scumread, but the yuma wagon (suspiciously!) died.  So #3 was Axxle, so Vote: Axxle.  Voltgloss is voting him, and sees the scummy lurker bit clearly, so I feel okay with that.  Definitely better than no lynch.

[Axxle]

inb4 IIoA

[ashersky]

When would you have me breadcrumb?  Things started looking bad for me, I didn't want to be mislynched yet again, I crumbed.  If you are claiming it was planned, I mean, breadcrumbs are intentional, by definition.  I planned to fit those words into my posts when I was worried I might have to claim and defend myself.

[Axxle]

You put breadcrumbs when you don't fear for your life, otherwise it's just a prolonged claim.

[yuma]

When would you have me breadcrumb?  Things started looking bad for me, I didn't want to be mislynched yet again, I crumbed.  If you are claiming it was planned, I mean, breadcrumbs are intentional, by definition.  I planned to fit those words into my posts when I was worried I might have to claim and defend myself.

I just don't see the point of breadcrumbing VT... what is the point?

breadcrumbs aren't that useful ever. They are always doubted, but if you are going to put them down, probably as a PR, they are best done day 1. Nice and early so that there isn't the doubt of "he only put them down because he was scum getting pressure"

[ashersky]

When would you have me breadcrumb?  Things started looking bad for me, I didn't want to be mislynched yet again, I crumbed.  If you are claiming it was planned, I mean, breadcrumbs are intentional, by definition.  I planned to fit those words into my posts when I was worried I might have to claim and defend myself.

I just don't see the point of breadcrumbing VT... what is the point?

breadcrumbs aren't that useful ever. They are always doubted, but if you are going to put them down, probably as a PR, they are best done day 1. Nice and early so that there isn't the doubt of "he only put them down because he was scum getting pressure"

Do players really start crumbing their role at the beginning of the game?  As a PR, I've always worried that they'd be picked up early.  I see breadcrumbing as an attempt to add credibility to a claim.  Of course, scum can do it to, which is the drawback of anything in the game.  Anyone can do any of it.

[yuma]

Well that is the risk with breadcrumbs and why they aren't ideal to use.

Grujah was the king of them back when. His were subtly complicated. I have done them as scum... Blitz I and partially as town PR in MVIII. But VT? Again, what is the point.

A PR putting down a breadcrumb is to help prevent his lynch later on down the road to the detriment of town. But most of the times, a VT lynch isn't the end of the world (unless it is lylo or close to it)

[Captain_Frisk]

On the subject of mass claiming - we have 7 alive, and 2 mislynches.

This is stream of consciousness theory - not sure where I feel about it:

If we full claimed - then we're left with (from my perspective) 4 people of unknown alignment.  (As I know I'm town).  That puts the chances of lynching correctly @ 50% (at least), and once done, the doc can protect the cop and we're off to the races.  The doc will die, but the cop will get an investigation in, and that will clear one more, leaving us with 1 scum in 3.

If only the cop claims - we still have a 50/50 shot of catching scum (the doctor will no doubt claim before we lynch), but if we lynch correctly without exposing the doc (40% chance) then the doctor can protect the cop forever.

If we don't claim, we run the risk of losing one or more PRs (< 40% (doc could protect) if we lynch correctly, < 50% if we mislynch)

Again, not sure how I feel, just trying to think it through.

Neglecting doctor protection, we have 2 nights remaining (1 mislynch, 1 hit on scum, and then lylo on the 3rd day)

If we claim and mislynch, scum will no doubt enable the cop, block the doctor, and kill the cop, and the the doctor the next night.

[Axxle]

You're neglecting the switches.

[Axxle]

or you address it in the last line... carry on.

[TheMunch]

We still only have 1 mislynch...

[Axxle]

Unless the doctor is successful... twice.  But yeah that sounds right.

[ashersky]

If we claim and mislynch, scum will no doubt enable the cop, block the doctor, and kill the cop, and the the doctor the next night.

This is my biggest worry, too.  A mislynch puts us at lylo tomorrow...but it would be three of us against two scum, but with a two in three chance of lynching scum (from my perspective, since it'd be me and the doctor confirmed town).  Those are good odds, but still puts us in a tough lylo 1 v 2 the next day.

On the subject of mass claiming - we have 7 alive, and 2 mislynches.

What do you mean here?  Don't we lose if we mislynch twice?

[TheMunch]

Its at 5-2.  We mislynch today, tonight we are at 4-2.  If doc is successful we are at 4-2 still.  Which means if we mislynch again doctor has to be successful again or we lose.  And how are we down to 4 targets only after massclaim?  How do you constantly know what everyone is going to claim when they claim?  Are both other scum going to claim PR and both actual PRs are going to counterclaim?

[yuma]

Man... I just want to vote for somebody! I am tired of trying to reread while studying at the same time.

So interesting fact here:

Qvist had the chance to hammer three times and was not on any major wagon yesterday or on the Galz lynch.

First time on me. Although at this point he had expressed a town read on me, but that appeared to change--very suspiciously to me toward the end of the day.

Second time on ashersky, just after ash claimed VT he expressed a potential willingness to hammer

Third time on jotheonah at the lynch but was supposedly beat to it by TheMunch.

this looks an awfully lot like me when I was scum in MXIV.

vote: qvist

[ashersky]

Qvist had the chance to hammer three times and was not on any major wagon yesterday or on the Galz lynch.

This is actually a compelling point.  This is Qvist's very first game, right?  Do first-timers often hammer, or are they scared to?  (Come to think of it, I think I hammered Robz on D1 of MX, my first game.)

Still, it does look awful scummy.

[yuma]

Qvist had the chance to hammer three times and was not on any major wagon yesterday or on the Galz lynch.

This is actually a compelling point.  This is Qvist's very first game, right?  Do first-timers often hammer, or are they scared to?  (Come to think of it, I think I hammered Robz on D1 of MX, my first game.)

Still, it does look awful scummy.

granted Qvist, town or scum or anyone else for that matter, may have been somewhat intimidated to hammer given the amount of suspicion I garnered for hammering Day 1. Although that was an entirely different situation...

[Captain_Frisk]

If we claim and mislynch, scum will no doubt enable the cop, block the doctor, and kill the cop, and the the doctor the next night.

This is my biggest worry, too.  A mislynch puts us at lylo tomorrow...but it would be three of us against two scum, but with a two in three chance of lynching scum (from my perspective, since it'd be me and the doctor confirmed town).  Those are good odds, but still puts us in a tough lylo 1 v 2 the next day.

On the subject of mass claiming - we have 7 alive, and 2 mislynches.

What do you mean here?  Don't we lose if we mislynch twice?

Yes. Brain fart

[Voltgloss]

I've been working on maths, and I'm starting to lean towards a massclaim today. 

But with a twist:  instead of claiming "VT," "cop," or "doc," I'm thinking everyone claim "VT" or "power role" (which could be cop OR doc).  This twist has the advantage of forcing scum to guess which of the power roles is the cop and which is the doc when making their nightkill tonight.

I am pretty sure that, if we do this, we guarantee at least a 50% chance of victory even if all lynches are randomly decided - regardless of whether scum fakeclaim or not.  (I can post the maths, but I'm hesitant to do so, as they make clear whether fakeclaiming is the better strategy for scum and I'd rather not educate them.)

As points of reference:

- If we lynch randomly from here on out, and the power roles get killed without getting any significant results, we have only a 22.85% chance of victory.

- Even if we don't massclaim, scum have at least a 40% chance of successfully targeting a power role tonight.  And that's only if the scumteam is yuma/ash.  If either one of them is town, scum can cross them off the list of potential power roles (because of their VT claims) and thus get a 50% chance of hitting a power role.  If they are BOTH town, scum have a 66.67% chance of hitting a power role.

[Axxle]

I was going to say I disagree but it might just work.

[TheMunch]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

[Captain_Frisk]

I am going to sleep on this issue.

Yuma voting feels odd to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

Eternal shame.

[Axxle]

Vote: Captain_Frisk

I have to go with my reads here.

[Captain_Frisk]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

A the very least, you should work out some logic explaining why you are for / against.

[Axxle]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

A the very least, you should work out some logic explaining why you are for / against.

Volts plan won't work.  Doesn't matter why.

[Captain_Frisk]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

A the very least, you should work out some logic explaining why you are for / against.

Volts plan won't work.  Doesn't matter why.

Oh?

[Axxle]

Oh.

[TheMunch]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

A the very least, you should work out some logic explaining why you are for / against.

Volts plan won't work.  Doesn't matter why.

I'm with axxle.  And not just cause I'm "Against all Claims," but because I am honestly trying to work it out and I dont see it working.  Wont work.  I'm against.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Captain_Frisk

I have to go with my reads here.

I look forward to this case.

[TheMunch]

Vote: Captain_Frisk

I have to go with my reads here.

I look forward to this case.

...

[Voltgloss]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

A the very least, you should work out some logic explaining why you are for / against.

Volts plan won't work.  Doesn't matter why.

What do you mean by the plan "won't work?"  Are you saying you think that we have a better than 50% chance of winning if we don't massclaim?  Or are you saying you think that, if we massclaim, we have a less than 50% chance of winning?

[Axxle]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

A the very least, you should work out some logic explaining why you are for / against.

Volts plan won't work.  Doesn't matter why.

What do you mean by the plan "won't work?"  Are you saying you think that we have a better than 50% chance of winning if we don't massclaim?  Or are you saying you think that, if we massclaim, we have a less than 50% chance of winning?

Doesn't matter why.

Suffice it to say that I will vote against doing so.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

I have to go with my reads here.

I look forward to this case.

Not much more to the case than what has already been mentioned.  Your attack on Galz, your stance on yuma was wishywashy, your reaction to the joth hammer seemed forced especially since it was so close to the deadline.

[Captain_Frisk]

Munch, are you against all claims in every game?

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle, I am kind of thinking that you are hoping to get te munch and qvist to lynch me
Before we proceed with volts plan.

[Voltgloss]

What is the punishment for refusal to participate?

A the very least, you should work out some logic explaining why you are for / against.

Volts plan won't work.  Doesn't matter why.

What do you mean by the plan "won't work?"  Are you saying you think that we have a better than 50% chance of winning if we don't massclaim?  Or are you saying you think that, if we massclaim, we have a less than 50% chance of winning?

Doesn't matter why.

Suffice it to say that I will vote against doing so.

No, that doesn't "suffice it to say."  My question is a simple, either/or question that does not ask you to elaborate any further or to get into any potentially anti-town discussion.  I think it warrants an answer.

[Axxle]

It would be anti-town if I explained my reasons.

[Axxle]

Axxle, I am kind of thinking that you are hoping to get te munch and qvist to lynch me
Before we proceed with volts plan.

I think volt's plan won't work.

[Axxle]

Axxle, I am kind of thinking that you are hoping to get te munch and qvist to lynch me
Before we proceed with volts plan.

I think volt's plan won't work.

So yes.

[TheMunch]

Munch, are you against all claims in every game?

Actually I was just recently discussing this with Shraeye while we were taking out the trash.  I think part of the problem is when I think of claiming I think of unsubstantiated claiming.  Claims that only have the players word to back them up.  I would say there are reasons to come out with your role at the time when it is most opportune to do so.  I mean, cop might have to come out with the fact that hes cop in order to share game winning investigatory information.  But in precisely these situations, there are people who can substantiate the players claims.  There are also some setups that can be broken by massclaims, but those usually involve a great degree of flavor.

In this game, with no PRs actually being able to use their role, except doctor most likely last night, everyone has at best unsubstantiated claims.  With 1 mislynch I would rather leave this game up to reads than a "greater than 50% chance to win."  I'm not going to flip a coin when I'm pretty sure I know where scum is.

[Voltgloss]

It would be anti-town if I explained my reasons.

But I am not asking you to explain your reasons.  I'm asking you simply to identify which part of my proposal you think is incorrect:  (1) that we have less than a 50% random-chance of victory if we don't massclaim, or (2) that we have at least a 50% random-chance of victory if we do massclaim.  I fail to see how your answering that question, and that question alone (no further explanation requested), could possibly be anti-town.

Also:  Frisk is at L-2.  I ask either Axxle or Munch to unvote, to prevent potential scum-and/or-derphammerers from ending the day short before we (as a group) have decided what's best re: town power roles.

[TheMunch]

My vote isn't leaving CF until I am convinced he is not scum.

[Voltgloss]

In this game, with no PRs actually being able to use their role, except doctor most likely last night, everyone has at best unsubstantiated claims.  With 1 mislynch I would rather leave this game up to reads than a "greater than 50% chance to win."  I'm not going to flip a coin when I'm pretty sure I know where scum is.

Munch, I'm not suggesting we abandon reads.  What I'm saying is I think massclaim plus reads give us the best chance at solving this mystery.  Remember, reads can be wrong.  Think back to your read on Eevee mid-Day 2.  Think about how strongly you felt that read.  Well, you're not alone in being able to develop very strong reads - that turn out to be wrong.

Without getting TOO deeply into the maths - if we massclaim today, and all town players tell the truth, there is one of three possible results:

1.  5 players claim VT, 2 claim power roles.  The power-role claimants are then substantiated because they are the only power-role claimants.  They are confirmed town.  We than have a baseline 2/5 chance of lynching scum (and I do agree that our reads should help us do better than that).  If we lynch scum, then the last scum can't block EITHER of the powerroles (if he does, he can't nightkill).  That means the Doc can protect the Cop, and the Cop can investigate, and the scum has only a 50% chance of successfully killing the Doc instead of the Cop. 

2.  4 players claim VT, 3 claim power roles.  One of the power-role claimants is scum.  I would then suggest the 3 PR claimants to identify exactly which PR they are claiming.  That leaves 1 confirmed PR and 2 players claiming the same PR; one town, one scum.  50% chance of lynching correctly, which lets the Cop investigate at night while scum kills the Doc (who should protect the Cop).  Day 4 with 1 Cop with an investigation vs. 1 scum is a good situation for town.  And even if we mislynch on Day 3, we are guaranteed to lynch the faker the following day, leading to LyLo on Day 5 - but that's still a better situation than if we mislynch today and don't go into Day 4 knowing 100% who one of the scum is.

3.  3 players claim VT, 4 claim power roles.  Now the 3 VT players are confirmed town, because we know both scum are amongst the 4 power-role claimant group.  50% chance of lynching correctly - AND, even if we mislynch, we once again are guaranteed to lynch the fake-claimer correctly on Day 4, leading to a Day 5 of 1 real PR vs. 1 fake PR plus 2 confirmed town - a 50-50 shot in LyLo, which is significantly better than the usual 33% chance of victory.

[Axxle]

Like I said before, you are wrong and it would be anti-town if I explained my reasons.

Let's focus on finding scum.

And by that I mean let's lynch CF.

[Voltgloss]

How about we let everyone else weigh in on the idea before you unilaterally put the kibosh on it while simultaneously refusing to discuss it even in the slightest?

ash, yuma, Qvist, CF:  I would appreciate your thoughts. 
Munch, I know you're against the idea, but if my last lengthy post helps explain things or triggers further questions, please let me know.

[Voltgloss]

While we're at it:  Axxle, why do you think CF is scummier than Qvist?

[ashersky]

How about we let everyone else weigh in on the idea before you unilaterally put the kibosh on it while simultaneously refusing to discuss it even in the slightest?

ash, yuma, Qvist, CF:  I would appreciate your thoughts. 
Munch, I know you're against the idea, but if my last lengthy post helps explain things or triggers further questions, please let me know.

I mentioned earlier today that I was hesitant.  The plan as you laid it out makes sense.  Are you sure you've accounted for all the possibilities?

The way I see it, 5 of you would need to claim.  You've broken it down to 2 PRs and 3 VTs, 3 PRs and 2 VTs, or 4 PRs and 1 VT.  I think that matches up.

Do you think mafia planned for this possibility?  Is our extended discussion of how it plays out actually helping them plan?

Axxle's reaction is hard to understand.  I mean, I get being against it, but not wanting to say anything at all as to why makes it tough to compute.

[Voltgloss]

The way I see it, 5 of you would need to claim.  You've broken it down to 2 PRs and 3 VTs, 3 PRs and 2 VTs, or 4 PRs and 1 VT.  I think that matches up.

Do you think mafia planned for this possibility?  Is our extended discussion of how it plays out actually helping them plan?

As long as we don't get into analysis of which of those three setups (2 PR/3 VT, 3 PR/2 VT, 4 PR/1 VT) is best/worst for town, I don't see how our discussing "should we massclaim at all" is going to help scum.  They may have planned for massclaim, sure, but if they have then they've already planned how to respond to it - our discussing is, I would think, less than likely to move them to deviate from whatever plan they made amongst themselves. 

[Axxle]

While we're at it:  Axxle, why do you think CF is scummier than Qvist?

Qvists case seems based on him being timid, which can be expected from new town that doesn't want to make mistakes.
I already stated some of CF's case.
Im pretty sure I've pinned his other scummate too.

[Axxle]

The way I see it, 5 of you would need to claim.  You've broken it down to 2 PRs and 3 VTs, 3 PRs and 2 VTs, or 4 PRs and 1 VT.  I think that matches up.

Do you think mafia planned for this possibility?  Is our extended discussion of how it plays out actually helping them plan?

As long as we don't get into analysis of which of those three setups (2 PR/3 VT, 3 PR/2 VT, 4 PR/1 VT) is best/worst for town, I don't see how our discussing "should we massclaim at all" is going to help scum.  They may have planned for massclaim, sure, but if they have then they've already planned how to respond to it - our discussing is, I would think, less than likely to move them to deviate from whatever plan they made amongst themselves.

you know my stance on theory discussion. Kill it dead.

[Axxle]

Volt, who is your strongest scumread today anyway?

[Voltgloss]

Volt, who is your strongest scumread today anyway?

You and Qvist are currently tied at #1.5.
I'm rereading both of you now.  Qvist first.

[Axxle]

Let me know which of us is easiest to mislynch.  Might be good for a laugh.

[Qvist]

Ok, let me clarify again. I saw the L-1 from CF and then wrote this.

jotheonah, I think you should claim too.
There's only 1 hour left until I cast my final vote.
And I'm tempted to risk the hammer because a No Lynch is guaranteed horrible while a lynch is only a possible mislynch.

The "New answered were posted" warning popped, I quickly just checked for new votes, there weren't any, so I submitted.
Then I saw that joth already claimed and had to think about it. Before I could say anything, TheMunch hammered.
I don't understand why this looks scummy to you.

I know this was the third time where I was in a position to hammer and didn't do it.
I didn't hammer yuma because he was town for me.
I didn't hammer ashersky because I had 3 people that looked to me more suspicious than him. I was just hesitant, maybe because this is my first game and I don't want to make any mistakes.
I didn't hammer jotheonah because I didn't had any chance to do it.

Anyway, back to the case.
Eevee is dead. That was surprising. I thought that Voltgloss or TheMunch were going to get killed.
Voltgloss is obvtown to most of us, but still he doesn't get killed. Now he's suspecting me! And he didn't vote for jotheonah.
TheMunch, like I said earlier, it looks like bad town play, but that means that he should be a good night target too.
yuma, I didn't change my mind after the yumawagon was abandoned. Read what I said. I was hesitant. I was just saying that you basically can't be town if CF and Eevee are scum which made me think. But I trusted my original gut and never was in any position in voting for you. CF and Eevee were still my fav scum picks.
CF, you did the L-1 on jotheonah which gives you some credibility points although we can't be sure that no scum was voting for jotheonah.
ashersky didn't vote for jotheonah neither and behaved a little strange lately. But similar to yuma, he claimed VT.
Axxle, I still haven't a very good read on you.

I will reread Eevee's comments and especially jotheonah's comments later today.
Until then no vote, because everyone has so far pros and cons.

[Voltgloss]

So on reread, I find it fascinating that:

- On Day 1, Qvist throws a battery of random votes around, on - yet studiously avoids joth and Axxle.  He votes Munch, Grujah (now me), ashersky, and yuma.  He never weighs in on the main topic of the day (Galzria) at ALL.

- On Day 2, Qvist directs suspicion at CF, Eevee, and ash.  He says almost nil about joth and Axxle all day - listing them both with me as "no read" in his 11/14 2:30:56 pm post.  The only time he says anything even remotely negative about joth is in 11/19/12 at 5:23:43 pm, when he lists Munch, ash, Eevee, and CF as all better lynch targets than yuma - following with "Even jtotheonah plays a little bit too 'adaptively' IMO to be townish."  Note 11/21/12 11:01:31 am, where Qvist reacts to Eevee's vote on joth by voting Eevee.  Classic chainsaw.  (Note also he does NOT chainsaw Axxle, who also voted joth by this time.  Doesn't even mention him.)

He also agrees with everything by Axxle and points some suspicion at Munch - but only after Axxle has done so first (see 11/15/12 at 6:24:49 am).  His only comments directed TO Axxle are to implore him (Axxle) to weigh in, and to ask clarification of a point of Axxle's he did not understand.  His 11/19/12 5:23:43 pm post again professes "no big read" on Axxle.  Same again at 11/21/12 10:45:28 am. 

And he insists that his failure to hammer yuma makes him (Qvist) conftown, assuming yuma is also town.  See 11/20/12, 10:38:58 am.  Identical to the argument Axxle made today about himself. 

Qvist's suspicions list at 11/25/12 6:05:45 am has joth at #6 out of 8 (with Axxle at #5).  So the only people he claims to find less suspicious than joth are himself and yuma.  The only time he expresses ANY interest in voting joth is in the same breath of asking joth to claim.  See 11/26/12 10:38:20 am.  Which gets posted AFTER joth has actually already claimed!

On top of all of that, notice how Qvist completely ignored weighing in on my massclaim proposal. 

I think Qvist is newbie scum trying to avoid saying anything even remotely bad about his partners if he can help it; trying to avoid taking stances on controversial wagons in order to avoid suspicion, preferring to direct suspicion on people who aren't in danger of being lynched (CF, Eevee); and trying to avoid hammering town in order to avoid suspicion.

As to his latest post:

I know this was the third time where I was in a position to hammer and didn't do it.
I didn't hammer yuma because he was town for me.
I didn't hammer ashersky because I had 3 people that looked to me more suspicious than him. I was just hesitant, maybe because this is my first game and I don't want to make any mistakes.
I didn't hammer jotheonah because I didn't had any chance to do it.

Of course scum!Qvist didn't hammer yuma, because he is using that failure to hammer as evidence that he (Qvist) is town.

Qvist is probably telling the truth about not hammering ash.  He was hesitant, because this is his first game as scum and he didn't want to make the mistake (of hammering town and drawing suspicion).  In retrospect, I expect he feels that hesitancy WAS a mistake.

And he didn't hammer joth because he never intended to.  He only wanted joth to fakeclaim to draw out the Doctor.

And here we are again with:

Axxle, I still haven't a very good read on you.

Finally:

Until then no vote, because everyone has so far pros and cons.

Y'know what?  With 2 votes on CF, I think some action is needed to even the scales. 

Vote: Qvist

[Captain_Frisk]

That's a pretty compelling case Volt!

[Qvist]

Many points are really ridiculous.

So on reread, I find it fascinating that:

- On Day 1, Qvist throws a battery of random votes around, on - yet studiously avoids joth and Axxle.  He votes Munch, Grujah (now me), ashersky, and yuma.  He never weighs in on the main topic of the day (Galzria) at ALL.

So what? I thought you do throw out a battery of random votes in RVS and you can't vote on everybody. Many others did the same. Regarding Galzria: I didn't say a lot about that, yeah, but simply because I really didn't know what this meant. I mean, voting for yourself? WTH?

- On Day 2, Qvist directs suspicion at CF, Eevee, and ash.  He says almost nil about joth and Axxle all day - listing them both with me as "no read" in his 11/14 2:30:56 pm post.  The only time he says anything even remotely negative about joth is in 11/19/12 at 5:23:43 pm, when he lists Munch, ash, Eevee, and CF as all better lynch targets than yuma - following with "Even jtotheonah plays a little bit too 'adaptively' IMO to be townish."  Note 11/21/12 11:01:31 am, where Qvist reacts to Eevee's vote on joth by voting Eevee.  Classic chainsaw.  (Note also he does NOT chainsaw Axxle, who also voted joth by this time.  Doesn't even mention him.)

jotheonah played pretty defensive and adaptively which was hard to read for me. What should I say about him? I didn't know if this is scummy behaviour. And Axxle, well, he didn't say a lot (beside the bulk of one liners). It's even harder to say anything about him. Regarding the Eevee case: Did you even read my post? He voted ashersky and then cited two comments, just to say that he wants lynch them, without a reason. After youself asked about jotheonah, he switched to jotheonah again with no real reason, he even admitted it. That looked very scummy to me, although we know that this wasn't the case. But you have to admit that this was strange.

He also agrees with everything by Axxle and points some suspicion at Munch - but only after Axxle has done so first (see 11/15/12 at 6:24:49 am).  His only comments directed TO Axxle are to implore him (Axxle) to weigh in, and to ask clarification of a point of Axxle's he did not understand.  His 11/19/12 5:23:43 pm post again professes "no big read" on Axxle.  Same again at 11/21/12 10:45:28 am. 

And he insists that his failure to hammer yuma makes him (Qvist) conftown, assuming yuma is also town.  See 11/20/12, 10:38:58 am.  Identical to the argument Axxle made today about himself. 

TheMunch made it Very Easy (TM) to accidentally lynch Galz.  He places his vote in the middle of a paragraph and doesn't announce the L-1.
This is antitown and scummy.

I agree here. I think of all going on CFs Galzria wagon, TheMunch made it too easy.

Don't you agree here?

And he insists that his failure to hammer yuma makes him (Qvist) conftown, assuming yuma is also town.  See 11/20/12, 10:38:58 am.  Identical to the argument Axxle made today about himself. 

So, you're saying that it's scum that I didn't hammer town (again assuming yuma is town)!? Where's the point?

Qvist's suspicions list at 11/25/12 6:05:45 am has joth at #6 out of 8 (with Axxle at #5).  So the only people he claims to find less suspicious than joth are himself and yuma.  The only time he expresses ANY interest in voting joth is in the same breath of asking joth to claim.  See 11/26/12 10:38:20 am.  Which gets posted AFTER joth has actually already claimed!

I already explained why this was after. I was ninja'd. And I was willing to take the risk, but hadn't the oppotunity. It's hard to prove, I know, but that's what happened.

On top of all of that, notice how Qvist completely ignored weighing in on my massclaim proposal. 

Sorry, I didn't ignore it. I just don't know if this is a good idea. And I tried to evaluate that, but had a hard time. But I think you brought up a valid point, it might work, but is really risky.

I think Qvist is newbie scum trying to avoid saying anything even remotely bad about his partners if he can help it; trying to avoid taking stances on controversial wagons in order to avoid suspicion, preferring to direct suspicion on people who aren't in danger of being lynched (CF, Eevee); and trying to avoid hammering town in order to avoid suspicion.

I'm still new to this, tell me why this is scummy. But anyway, you aren't completely telling the truth. CF was voted various time on #1 as top scum read and Eevee was also suspected by many others. On the end of day 2, I said that I will change my vote, willing to hammer, but hadn't the opportunity to do so.

As to his latest post:

I know this was the third time where I was in a position to hammer and didn't do it.
I didn't hammer yuma because he was town for me.
I didn't hammer ashersky because I had 3 people that looked to me more suspicious than him. I was just hesitant, maybe because this is my first game and I don't want to make any mistakes.
I didn't hammer jotheonah because I didn't had any chance to do it.

Of course scum!Qvist didn't hammer yuma, because he is using that failure to hammer as evidence that he (Qvist) is town.

Qvist is probably telling the truth about not hammering ash.  He was hesitant, because this is his first game as scum and he didn't want to make the mistake (of hammering town and drawing suspicion).  In retrospect, I expect he feels that hesitancy WAS a mistake.

And he didn't hammer joth because he never intended to.  He only wanted joth to fakeclaim to draw out the Doctor.

And here we are again with:

Axxle, I still haven't a very good read on you.

Finally:

Until then no vote, because everyone has so far pros and cons.

Y'know what?  With 2 votes on CF, I think some action is needed to even the scales. 

Vote: Qvist

This is ridiculous, I'm telling the truth here. Your arguments are flawed and hide important facts.
I tell you what I think. Why didn't scum kill you if you are obvtown? Why Eevee?
Maybe because you are scum and obviously won't NK yourself? You killed Eevee because you can bring up points that make me look bad?
You didn't vote for your scumbuddy jotheonah neither, many things you said about me I can say about you too.
You did start a bandwagon on (assumed) town yuma which nearly worked out and now you're starting a similar one on me?

Vote: Voltgloss

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - that is called "OMGUS'

[Voltgloss]

Before replying further, I'd like to hear everyone's take on my case and Qvist's response.  Most of all, I'm interested to hear from ash.  (I realize that means we need to wait for the timezone difference, but, as they say in Witches' Brew, So be it!)

[Qvist]

Qvist - that is called "OMGUS'

And by "that" you mean my or his comment!?

[Captain_Frisk]

So - to look at Voltgloss / Grujah:

1. Did nothing day 1.
Day 2
2. Wanted everyone to weigh in on yuma.
3. Has been harassing Axxle all through day 2.
4. Got pissed about lurking.
5. Asked Eevee to clarify the case on joth.
6. Did not rate joth in my scummy 5 game.
7. Votes Axxle AFTER i prompt him for being the only person not voting.
8. Ranks joth as #3 out of 9 in post 883 (eevee #6)
Day 3
9. Starts massclaim theory

So - after harping on qvist super hard for ignoring joth... he almost completely ignored the joth situation on day 2.

I do think I agree with him on mass claiming.  I think we can hit scum today, and claiming should guarantee that we get an investigation off.

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - that is called "OMGUS'

And by "that" you mean my or his comment!?

When someone puts together a case / vote / casts suspicion on you - and you immediately vote them back, its called an OMGUS vote (Oh my god you suck).  I don't know that its scummy, but it certainly has less credibility than a normal case, because you're likely fueled by irrational rage at the person who's voting for you (because they are wrong, in which case you're pissed, or because they are right, in which case you're pissed)

[Qvist]

Ah ok, I see. Thanks for clarification.

[Voltgloss]

It's fair of Frisk to point out that I didn't say much about joth on Day 2.  Reason being:  I doubted (and still doubt) that both ash and joth could be scum, given their near-identical behavior in piling on my yuma vote.  Throughout Day 2, I considered ash scummier than joth, and so when I thought about "who might be scum on the yumawagon" ash always took precedence (and joth did not). 

As I mentioned earlier this Day, the reverse of this thinking is why joth's flip has now reduced my suspicion of ash.

[TheMunch]

My short list for the last 2 scum is CF Qvist ash volt

[Captain_Frisk]

It's fair of Frisk to point out that I didn't say much about joth on Day 2.  Reason being:  I doubted (and still doubt) that both ash and joth could be scum, given their near-identical behavior in piling on my yuma vote.  Throughout Day 2, I considered ash scummier than joth, and so when I thought about "who might be scum on the yumawagon" ash always took precedence (and joth did not). 

As I mentioned earlier this Day, the reverse of this thinking is why joth's flip has now reduced my suspicion of ash.

But you were never voting for ash?

[Voltgloss]

It's fair of Frisk to point out that I didn't say much about joth on Day 2.  Reason being:  I doubted (and still doubt) that both ash and joth could be scum, given their near-identical behavior in piling on my yuma vote.  Throughout Day 2, I considered ash scummier than joth, and so when I thought about "who might be scum on the yumawagon" ash always took precedence (and joth did not). 

As I mentioned earlier this Day, the reverse of this thinking is why joth's flip has now reduced my suspicion of ash.

But you were never voting for ash?

Because I found Axxle scummier than either of them.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 3-2

Captain_Frisk (2) - TheMunch, Axxle
Qvist (2) - yuma, Voltgloss
Voltgloss (1) - Qvist

Not Voting (2) - Captain_Frisk, Ashersky

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: December 12 2012, 8:20am PST (11:20am forum time)

[Captain_Frisk]

@yuma - what are your thoughts on mass claim?

[Captain_Frisk]

And Axxle - I'd love to hear an explanation on why explaining why Volt's idea won't work is anti town.  If you explain why it won't work - then we won't do it, and thus its no different than just regular scum hunting right?

[Captain_Frisk]

I was going to say I disagree but it might just work.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

I have to go with my reads here.

@Axxle - what happened in these 5 minutes?

[Voltgloss]

I'm also open to the massclaim variant where everyone claims "Cop" or "not Cop."  Frisk mentioned this in an earlier post.  I haven't run the maths yet as to which variant is best for town, but I can see this as a potentially workable alternative:

1.  Say only 1 person claims Cop.  He is then confirmed town.  Of the remaining 6 players, we have a 50% chance of lynching scum even with a pure random lynch, assuming the Doctor claims if he is about to be lynched.  (And even if scum fakeclaims Doctor, that just puts us right back at 50% if the real Doctor counterclaims.)  Lynch scum, and we go into Day 4 with Cop + investigation vs. 1 scum, and could have the Doctor still alive if he successfully stayed hidden Day 3 and if the scum don't pick right with their nightkill.

2.  Say 2 people claim Cop.  One is town, one is scum.  50% chance of lynching right, and if we do, we're again into Day 4 with Cop + investigation vs. 1 scum with a possibly still-alive Doctor.  Lynch wrong, and we lynch the faker Day 4 and go into Lylo Day 5 - but with the possibility of a Doc blocking the Night 4 kill.

Again, I think our reads will help us bump those raw random-50% numbers up to even better likelihood of victory.

[Captain_Frisk]

Munch, are you against all claims in every game?

Actually I was just recently discussing this with Shraeye while we were taking out the trash.  I think part of the problem is when I think of claiming I think of unsubstantiated claiming.  Claims that only have the players word to back them up.  I would say there are reasons to come out with your role at the time when it is most opportune to do so.  I mean, cop might have to come out with the fact that hes cop in order to share game winning investigatory information.  But in precisely these situations, there are people who can substantiate the players claims.  There are also some setups that can be broken by massclaims, but those usually involve a great degree of flavor.

In this game, with no PRs actually being able to use their role, except doctor most likely last night, everyone has at best unsubstantiated claims.  With 1 mislynch I would rather leave this game up to reads than a "greater than 50% chance to win."  I'm not going to flip a coin when I'm pretty sure I know where scum is.

So - in this game I would argue that everyone's claim is substantiated by the open nature of the setup.  This isn't like some other game where I claim to have day-vigging powers.  (good times!)

We know there are 2 remaining town PRs.  A cop and a doctor.  If a claim is not counter claimed - then we treat it as truthful - because you can be damn sure that if I was the doctor, I'd have called Joth out on his bullshit.  (I think its rather clear from my reaction to Joth's claim that I'm not)

If you're about to die as a PR - you generally claim - because you getting lynched is bad for town, and it gives town a 2nd chance at a lynch + information about your wagon.

In this game, if we follow volts plan of a generic claim and we get a scum lynch we have a chance at getting into a "follow the cop" setup, which is AMAZING for town.

I'd love to call you and Axxle scummy for opposing, but I think you just haven't thought about it, and Axxle (as town) is someone who voted on a plan that was going to result in him getting night killed in MIV, so he's not high on my mafia theory leaderboard.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm also open to the massclaim variant where everyone claims "Cop" or "not Cop."  Frisk mentioned this in an earlier post.  I haven't run the maths yet as to which variant is best for town, but I can see this as a potentially workable alternative:

1.  Say only 1 person claims Cop.  He is then confirmed town.  Of the remaining 6 players, we have a 50% chance of lynching scum even with a pure random lynch, assuming the Doctor claims if he is about to be lynched.  (And even if scum fakeclaims Doctor, that just puts us right back at 50% if the real Doctor counterclaims.)  Lynch scum, and we go into Day 4 with Cop + investigation vs. 1 scum, and could have the Doctor still alive if he successfully stayed hidden Day 3 and if the scum don't pick right with their nightkill.

2.  Say 2 people claim Cop.  One is town, one is scum.  50% chance of lynching right, and if we do, we're again into Day 4 with Cop + investigation vs. 1 scum with a possibly still-alive Doctor.  Lynch wrong, and we lynch the faker Day 4 and go into Lylo Day 5 - but with the possibility of a Doc blocking the Night 4 kill.

Again, I think our reads will help us bump those raw random-50% numbers up to even better likelihood of victory.

I really wish I wasn't so nervous about you.

[TheMunch]

Munch, are you against all claims in every game?

Actually I was just recently discussing this with Shraeye while we were taking out the trash.  I think part of the problem is when I think of claiming I think of unsubstantiated claiming.  Claims that only have the players word to back them up.  I would say there are reasons to come out with your role at the time when it is most opportune to do so.  I mean, cop might have to come out with the fact that hes cop in order to share game winning investigatory information.  But in precisely these situations, there are people who can substantiate the players claims.  There are also some setups that can be broken by massclaims, but those usually involve a great degree of flavor.

In this game, with no PRs actually being able to use their role, except doctor most likely last night, everyone has at best unsubstantiated claims.  With 1 mislynch I would rather leave this game up to reads than a "greater than 50% chance to win."  I'm not going to flip a coin when I'm pretty sure I know where scum is.

So - in this game I would argue that everyone's claim is substantiated by the open nature of the setup.  This isn't like some other game where I claim to have day-vigging powers.  (good times!)

We know there are 2 remaining town PRs.  A cop and a doctor.  If a claim is not counter claimed - then we treat it as truthful - because you can be damn sure that if I was the doctor, I'd have called Joth out on his bullshit.  (I think its rather clear from my reaction to Joth's claim that I'm not)

If you're about to die as a PR - you generally claim - because you getting lynched is bad for town, and it gives town a 2nd chance at a lynch + information about your wagon.

In this game, if we follow volts plan of a generic claim and we get a scum lynch we have a chance at getting into a "follow the cop" setup, which is AMAZING for town.

I'd love to call you and Axxle scummy for opposing, but I think you just haven't thought about it, and Axxle (as town) is someone who voted on a plan that was going to result in him getting night killed in MIV, so he's not high on my mafia theory leaderboard.

You are free to call me whatever you like.  I have thought about it, although Volts most recent cop/notcop is a little more interesting and I would have to think about that one a little more.  Just cause I disagree with YOU on theory doesn't make me scum, nor does it make me wrong.  It just makes me someone that disagrees with you.

I had had a hard time with this concept in my first game, XI (God damn that game needs to finish) but I was butting heads a ton with eHal who was town on how to scumhunt.  It is very easy to go: My idea is right and thus pro-town, therefore people who disagree with me are inherently anti-town.  I think this is a flawed premise.  People can disagree and still think they are doing something pro-town.  I might not like it, but disagreeing on theory is far from a nail in the coffin in my books.

Thats why currently I am trying to separate the theory of Volts particular claims from the conspiracy of: Volt is scum who is trying to push a reasonable sounding plan that is somehow going to benefit scum more than it helps town.

[Captain_Frisk]

I had had a hard time with this concept in my first game, XI (God damn that game needs to finish) but I was butting heads a ton with eHal who was town on how to scumhunt.  It is very easy to go: My idea is right and thus pro-town, therefore people who disagree with me are inherently anti-town.  I think this is a flawed premise.  People can disagree and still think they are doing something pro-town.  I might not like it, but disagreeing on theory is far from a nail in the coffin in my books.

Generally frowned upon to talk about currently running games.  Not quite "editing posts" level illegal, but a smackable offense.

[Captain_Frisk]

Thats why currently I am trying to separate the theory of Volts particular claims from the conspiracy of: Volt is scum who is trying to push a reasonable sounding plan that is somehow going to benefit scum more than it helps town.

Well - you already said it won't work - but you haven't explained why.

[TheMunch]

I had had a hard time with this concept in my first game, XI (God damn that game needs to finish) but I was butting heads a ton with eHal who was town on how to scumhunt.  It is very easy to go: My idea is right and thus pro-town, therefore people who disagree with me are inherently anti-town.  I think this is a flawed premise.  People can disagree and still think they are doing something pro-town.  I might not like it, but disagreeing on theory is far from a nail in the coffin in my books.

Generally frowned upon to talk about currently running games.  Not quite "editing posts" level illegal, but a smackable offense.

I only feel comfortable mentioning it because we have both been dead for over a month +?

[TheMunch]

I had had a hard time with this concept in my first game, XI (God damn that game needs to finish) but I was butting heads a ton with eHal who was town on how to scumhunt.  It is very easy to go: My idea is right and thus pro-town, therefore people who disagree with me are inherently anti-town.  I think this is a flawed premise.  People can disagree and still think they are doing something pro-town.  I might not like it, but disagreeing on theory is far from a nail in the coffin in my books.

Generally frowned upon to talk about currently running games.  Not quite "editing posts" level illegal, but a smackable offense.

I only feel comfortable mentioning it because we have both been dead for over a month +?

Yeah I died Oct 8th, he died the 26th.  I'm talking about arguments I had with him almost 2 months ago...

[Captain_Frisk]

I had had a hard time with this concept in my first game, XI (God damn that game needs to finish) but I was butting heads a ton with eHal who was town on how to scumhunt.  It is very easy to go: My idea is right and thus pro-town, therefore people who disagree with me are inherently anti-town.  I think this is a flawed premise.  People can disagree and still think they are doing something pro-town.  I might not like it, but disagreeing on theory is far from a nail in the coffin in my books.

Generally frowned upon to talk about currently running games.  Not quite "editing posts" level illegal, but a smackable offense.

I only feel comfortable mentioning it because we have both been dead for over a month +?

Yeah I died Oct 8th, he died the 26th.  I'm talking about arguments I had with him almost 2 months ago...

Sorry - totally not aware of game state in that behemoth.

[TheMunch]

Cool, yeah I dont mean to blatantly break all the rules but there are limits...  Its just the glaring example I had in my head of: I had a disagreement with someone which made me think that they were being incredibly scummy, and I was wrong.

On further reflection though, I dont like even the cop/not cop case.  Axxle is hesitant to state reasons why these are bad and I had a tendency to agree with him, however I dont know why.  If it is a bad idea to claim it should be the people who know why a scheme is bad for claiming, unless it gives away other information, should let people know.

Lets say only cop claims cop, everyone else claims not cop.  Each individual is hunting for scum amongst the 5 players not themselves.  All we've done is outed the cop, which is terrible when there is a 4/6 chance to fail to hit scum for our lynch.  The way that we improve that is if doctor claims too.  That puts the chance at hitting scum at 2/5.  We have traded both our power roles for a 40% chance to hit scum.  So if it is random, more likely than not both scum is alive, they can keep doc off, kill the cop.  Easy for them.  We have now mislynched and our down a cop, potentially with a revealed doc.  The next day we are at 2 scum, 3 town and no cop.  This seems bad to me.

[Captain_Frisk]

Lets say only cop claims cop, everyone else claims not cop.  Each individual is hunting for scum amongst the 5 players not themselves.  All we've done is outed the cop, which is terrible when there is a 4/6 chance to fail to hit scum for our lynch.  The way that we improve that is if doctor claims too.  That puts the chance at hitting scum at 2/5.  We have traded both our power roles for a 40% chance to hit scum.  So if it is random, more likely than not both scum is alive, they can keep doc off, kill the cop.  Easy for them.  We have now mislynched and our down a cop, potentially with a revealed doc.  The next day we are at 2 scum, 3 town and no cop.  This seems bad to me.

So here's where you're wrong.

Cop claims.  If unclaimed - he is confirmed town.  That leaves 2 scum among 6.  (2 scum among 5 from my perspective)  We won't actually lynch the doctor out of that group - because the doctor will claim.  So now we're down to 2 out of 4 - hence the 50% that Volt is seeing.  There's a 40% chance to hit scum straight up without even getting into the doctor, and then another 10% chance of exposing the doctor.

Today - we want to lynch scum AND make sure the doctor knows who the cop is - so the doctor can protect the cop and we can get an investigation result for tomorrow.  You could argue that the cop wants to know who the doctor is so that he doesn't waste an investigation on him.

If we mislynch - then the power roles don't really matter because we're boned anyway.

[Axxle]

We also have a 50% of catching scum if NO ONE claims out of the blue, since the cop and doctor will claim if we run them up.

[Voltgloss]

I'm still parsing Munch's analysis, but to respond quickly to this:

We also have a 50% of catching scum if NO ONE claims out of the blue, since the cop and doctor will claim if we run them up.

Actually, no.  We have a 40% chance of catching scum if no one claims out of the blue.

The math, assuming no claims unless a PR is about to be lynched, and going by pure randomness unassisted by reads:

I. (2/7)  We lynch scum

II. (3/7)  We lynch VT

III. (1/7)  We try to lynch Cop, but he claims
{A} (2/6)  We then lynch scum (w/ Cop outed)
{B} (3/6)  We then lynch VT (w/ Cop outed)
{C} (1/6)  We try to lynch Doc, but he claims
{C1} (2/5)  We then lynch scum (w/ Cop + Doc outed)
{C2} (3/5)  We then lynch VT (w/ Cop + Doc outed)

IV. (1/7)  We try to lynch Doc, but he claims
{A} (2/6)  We then lynch scum (w/ Doc outed)
{B} (3/6)  We then lynch VT (w/ Doc outed)
{C} (1/6)  We try to lynch Cop, but he claims
{C1} (2/5)  We then lynch scum (w/ Cop + Doc outed)
{C2} (3/5)  We then lynch VT (w/ Cop + Doc outed)

Chance of lynching scum:
- Outcome I, (2/7); +
- Outcome IIIA, (1/7)*(2/6); +
- Outcome IIIC1, (1/7)*(1/6)*(2/5); +
- Outcome IVA, (1/7)*(2/6); +
- Outcome IVC1, (1/7)*(1/6)*(2/5);
equals 40%. 

[Voltgloss]

And on further reflection, I see that the same 40% applies if the Cop claims right off (and is not counterclaimed):

I. (2/6)  We lynch scum (w/ Cop outed)

II. (3/6)  We lynch VT (w/ Cop outed)

III. (1/6)  We try to lynch Doc, but he claims
{A} (2/5)  We then lynch scum (w/ Cop + Doc outed)
{B} (3/5)  We then lynch VT (w/ Cop + Doc outed)

Chance of lynching scum:
- Outcome I, (2/6); +
- Outcome IIIA, (1/6)*(2/5); = 40%

My original numbers assumed scum would counterclaim if the Doc claimed.  But if they don't, we get this.

That looks like the Cop claiming doesn't help the chance of hitting scum today.  Perhaps it doesn't.  The question that comes up next is this:  are we in a better situation if the Cop is known (and the Doc is not) versus BOTH power roles being unknown at day's end?  That's the question I'll wrestle with next. 

Thanks, Munch.  This is helpful.

[Captain_Frisk]

So - really the benefit to claiming it to better focus the discussion up front, and allowing us to make use of the powers intelligently tonight, at the risk of exposing them if we guess wrong.

[Voltgloss]

So - really the benefit to claiming it to better focus the discussion up front, and allowing us to make use of the powers intelligently tonight, at the risk of exposing them if we guess wrong.

Yeah, I'm coming to that conclusion too.  And looks like that only applies to the Cop claiming.  Looking at the numbers, it appears scum has less of a chance killing the Doc at night that way (even taking into accont the possibility that we stumble over the Doc in selecting a lynch).

[Axxle]

Volt, this is not a game of pure randomness. There are people who are more likely scum and people who are more likely power roles, so all this talk on numbers is flawed. 

[Axxle]

Your time is much better spent bussing your scummate Frisk so we can get to lynching you tomorrow.

[Axxle]

Your time is much better spent bussing your scummate Frisk so we can get to lynching you tomorrow.

/joke
... kinda

[Voltgloss]

Volt, this is not a game of pure randomness. There are people who are more likely scum and people who are more likely power roles, so all this talk on numbers is flawed.

I can understand this stance.  Whether I agree or not, I understand it.

But if that's your stance, I find it strange you didn't just say so in the first place.

[Axxle]

Volt, this is not a game of pure randomness. There are people who are more likely scum and people who are more likely power roles, so all this talk on numbers is flawed.

I can understand this stance.  Whether I agree or not, I understand it.

But if that's your stance, I find it strange you didn't just say so in the first place.

I had other reasons before.  I really just thought of this now.

[Voltgloss]

Hmm.

Well.  When ash gets here, he may feel a bit overwhelmed.  ash:  of course comment on whatever you wish to comment, but in particular I would appreciate your thoughts on my case vs. Qvist and Qvist's response.  Thanks.

[ashersky]

Hmm.

Well.  When ash gets here, he may feel a bit overwhelmed.  ash:  of course comment on whatever you wish to comment, but in particular I would appreciate your thoughts on my case vs. Qvist and Qvist's response.  Thanks.

I'm here now.  I've read everything quickly, but that's a lot of stuff.  I'm going to read it again now.  I'll comment on your case on Qvist (strong) and his response (not strong), and on the massclaim stuff.

[Captain_Frisk]

Hmm.

Well.  When ash gets here, he may feel a bit overwhelmed.  ash:  of course comment on whatever you wish to comment, but in particular I would appreciate your thoughts on my case vs. Qvist and Qvist's response.  Thanks.

I'm here now.  I've read everything quickly, but that's a lot of stuff.  I'm going to read it again now.  I'll comment on your case on Qvist (strong) and his response (not strong), and on the massclaim stuff.

I'd also be curious to see if you think that Volt's case on Qvist is fundamentally any different than the same thing pointed @Volt - just removing all of the day 1 stuff.

[Axxle]

Qvist - that is called "OMGUS'

No, it's called spotting a scummy case on someone that happens to be yourself.

Vote: Voltgloss

I'm willing to lynch CF or Volt today.  Would slightly prefer Volt.

I was going to say I disagree but it might just work.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

I have to go with my reads here.

@Axxle - what happened in these 5 minutes?

I realized what was wrong with the plan

... I now know what I must do:

Vote: Voltgloss

He didn't kill TheMunch (who he thinks is doctor) since he wanted to use this plan to out the cop too.

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - that is called "OMGUS'

No, it's called spotting a scummy case on someone that happens to be yourself.

Vote: Voltgloss

I'm willing to lynch CF or Volt today.  Would slightly prefer Volt.

I was going to say I disagree but it might just work.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

I have to go with my reads here.

@Axxle - what happened in these 5 minutes?

I realized what was wrong with the plan

... I now know what I must do:

Vote: Voltgloss

He didn't kill TheMunch (who he thinks is doctor) since he wanted to use this plan to out the cop too.

Twice for extra emphasis?

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 3-3

Captain_Frisk (1) - TheMunch
Qvist (2) - yuma, Voltgloss
Voltgloss (2) - Qvist, Axxle

Not Voting (2) - Captain_Frisk, Ashersky

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: December 12 2012, 8:20am PST (11:20am forum time)

[Axxle]

Twice for extra emphasis?

Yeah.

[ashersky]

Okay, so I'll just refer instead of quote, if that's okay.  In the pages since I was offline, I noted a few things worth commenting on: Volt's case on Qvist/Qvist's response; Frisk's nervousness/case on Volt; Axxle's firm stance against claiming; Munch's stance against claiming; the actual claiming.  PPE Edit: This ended up really long, so I'll break it up into a few parts.

On the Volt/Qvist issue -- I think that Volt's case is well-built.  It's convincing.  Qvist's reaction is super-scummy-sounding: it's defensive, angry, and ends with an OMGUS vote.  I'll be okay with a Qvist lynch today, but wanted to note something.  I hate to keep playing the newbie card, but I remember what it was like in my very first game, and coming under suspicion really sucked.  I'm used to it now, and generally react differently, but Frisk will at least remember the Doctor claim in MX a day late and the crap I took for that.  I think as long as we are at least considerate of that possibility before voting/lynching, we're okay.

One line that stuck out from Qvist's response that did resonate: in response to Voltgloss's assertion that Qvist didn't hammer yuma to give himself towncred, he seems sincerely flabbergasted that not hammering town is scummy--that line reads true newbie town to me.  But as I mentioned, the rest of that post is pretty scummy.

On Frisk v. Volt -- I found it interesting that you chose to re-read him.  The points you raise about his D2 interactions with joth are valid.  I believe Volt's rebuttal, though, that he thought I was the scummier of the two so focused on his stronger scumreads.  He clearly chose the wrong one, but those types of errors happen all the time in these games.  I'm not giving Volt a pass, per se, but I'm not convinced by this argument much, and definitely nowhere near the Qvist argument.

Frisk, can you expand on why you are "nervous" about Volt?  Mostly from his D2 interactions?  If there's any reason, I think it's because he seems SO town all the time, so I think scum!Volt would be really, really scary.

[ashersky]

Part 2:

On Axxle's firm stance against claiming -- So, I'm convinced that this is due to one of two things.  Either he's 1) mafia who finds that Volt's idea is too good for town; or 2) he's one of the PRs.  Before he starts screaming that I'm being anti-town by saying this, I can't be the only person who's been trying to figure out where Axxle's coming from.

Thing is, if it's #2, the way he's gone about disagreeing with Volt has been terrible for town.  It draws all sorts of suspicion, makes him look bad, and isn't contributing to us finding scum.  On the whole, I think scum will be against the massclaim/partial claim idea more often than town will.  That said, if it's #2, I guess I can see where he's coming from.

On TheMunch's stance against claiming -- TheMunch has been much more pragmatic and reasoned in his opposition.  He's given reasons.  We also know it's his f.ds-wide stance.  Dude just doesn't like claims (note: he's wrong).  It sticks out because he's the other vocal opposer, but it reads fine to me.

On the claiming plan(s) -- At this point, I support Volt's plan, even with this caveat that only a cop claim gives us the same chance.  Here's my reasoning (just discussing cop claims):

--I think a public cop and hidden doctor is our best chance of winning.  Doctor protects cop, we get investigations to work off of.  At this point, confirming town is just as helpful and finding scum through investigations, because it narrows our suspect pool.
--If cop claims and is NOT counterclaimed, we have a 1 in 6 (1 in 5 for any non-doctor, like me) risk in hitting the doctor accidentally.  And that shouldn't come to pass because the doctor will claim when in danger (sorry TheMunch, I know you don't like it, but this has to happen).
--If cop claims and is counterclaimed, we have a 1 in 2 chance of hitting scum, plus a sure shot at protecting the real cop if we hit scum.  If we mislynch, we have confirmed scum on D4.


And now a bunch of PPE posts to look at.

[Captain_Frisk]

@Volt -

What games have you been scum in?

[Axxle]

@Volt -

What games have you been scum in?

I know I'm not supposed to talk about ongoing games, but he's scum in Mafia XV.

[Captain_Frisk]

but Frisk will at least remember the Doctor claim in MX a day late and the crap I took for that. 

You guys won the game because of that.  I gave you crap as scum, and boy was I pissed.  If we had outed you instead the day before, Jorbles could have killed you and I wouldn't have had to fake claim his innocence the next day.

[Captain_Frisk]

@Volt -

What games have you been scum in?

I know I'm not supposed to talk about ongoing games, but he's scum in Mafia XV.

Good thing RobZ isn't here or he'd say something about humor being anti town.  I just laughed my ass off.

[Voltgloss]

@CF:

I was scum in M-III, with yuma and Eevee.  We were flying high for a while, then crashed and burned primarily due to excellent jailkeeping by eHalcyon, rolecopping by Axxle, and my own falling for the trap of hammering Morgrim. 

I was scum in RM-I, as part of the ill-fated Curse faction that you picked apart as uber-Cop/Tracker, only for uber-SK joth to walk off with the game at the end.

I was scum in Ozle's Mystery Mafia, which kinda defies easy encapsulation.  I made it to Lylo but Insom won that game for town.

I was victorious SK in M-IX.

And I was part of the winning scumteam in joth's recent Bastard Mafia game (forget the number), if that counts. 

I think that's all of my turns as scum.  Will recheck.

[Voltgloss]

And in any case, now that everyone has put their thoughts on record re: Qvist and massclaim, I think it's the right time for this.

I am the Cop.

O suggested in the Hydra game that the best approach when claiming under circumstances like these is for the claimant to NOT say anything else in their initial claim, but instead to wait and see if scum is going to fake-counterclaim.  That is what I am doing.

[TheMunch]

Wait.  After all the talk before about how maybe claiming was a bad idea, why did you just claim?

[Voltgloss]

Wait.  After all the talk before about how maybe claiming was a bad idea, why did you just claim?

I'll explain after everyone else has posted at least once.

[Axxle]

Unvote

Back to the drawing board.

[TheMunch]

Wait.  After all the talk before about how maybe claiming was a bad idea, why did you just claim?

I'll explain after everyone else has posted at least once.

Ok... But you know how I feel about this...

[ashersky]

So I had a post half-written and then was PPE;ed by a lot.

[ashersky]

I'm actually feeling much better about a vote: Axxle now.  His opposition to the mass claim idea, to me, was either because he didn't want to be outed as cop or he's scum afraid of it.

Volt, assuming you are in fact the cop, do you think it'd be helpful to hear who we think you should investigate tonight?

[Voltgloss]

I'm actually feeling much better about a vote: Axxle now.  His opposition to the mass claim idea, to me, was either because he didn't want to be outed as cop or he's scum afraid of it.

Volt, assuming you are in fact the cop, do you think it'd be helpful to hear who we think you should investigate tonight?

I'm happy to discuss things, but only after everyone has posted at least once.

I do have one request:  for now, nobody vote ANYbody to L-1.  There are things that need discussing before we go to night, and I do not want anyone to (inadvertently or not) short-circuit that by quickhammering.

[TheMunch]

I'm actually feeling much better about a vote: Axxle now.  His opposition to the mass claim idea, to me, was either because he didn't want to be outed as cop or he's scum afraid of it.

Volt, assuming you are in fact the cop, do you think it'd be helpful to hear who we think you should investigate tonight?

I wouldn't say nuthin'.

[TheMunch]

I'm actually feeling much better about a vote: Axxle now.  His opposition to the mass claim idea, to me, was either because he didn't want to be outed as cop or he's scum afraid of it.

Volt, assuming you are in fact the cop, do you think it'd be helpful to hear who we think you should investigate tonight?

I'm happy to discuss things, but only after everyone has posted at least once.

I do have one request:  for now, nobody vote ANYbody to L-1.  There are things that need discussing before we go to night, and I do not want anyone to (inadvertently or not) short-circuit that by quickhammering.

I wish CF was at 2 votes with me not voting for him so I could put him at L-1.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm actually feeling much better about a vote: Axxle now.  His opposition to the mass claim idea, to me, was either because he didn't want to be outed as cop or he's scum afraid of it.

Volt, assuming you are in fact the cop, do you think it'd be helpful to hear who we think you should investigate tonight?

I'm happy to discuss things, but only after everyone has posted at least once.

I do have one request:  for now, nobody vote ANYbody to L-1.  There are things that need discussing before we go to night, and I do not want anyone to (inadvertently or not) short-circuit that by quickhammering.

I wish CF was at 2 votes with me not voting for him so I could put him at L-1.

How are you going to sleep when you find out that I'm town?

[TheMunch]

I'm actually feeling much better about a vote: Axxle now.  His opposition to the mass claim idea, to me, was either because he didn't want to be outed as cop or he's scum afraid of it.

Volt, assuming you are in fact the cop, do you think it'd be helpful to hear who we think you should investigate tonight?

I'm happy to discuss things, but only after everyone has posted at least once.

I do have one request:  for now, nobody vote ANYbody to L-1.  There are things that need discussing before we go to night, and I do not want anyone to (inadvertently or not) short-circuit that by quickhammering.

I wish CF was at 2 votes with me not voting for him so I could put him at L-1.

How are you going to sleep when you find out that I'm town?

IF you were town I would lose a lot of confidence in my reads.  Too bad you aren't town.

So I just did a reread of day 1.  I was going to do a reread of both day 1 and 2 but had to come post this.  I feel like a lot got lost day 1.  Galz exploded.  Yuma hammered.  There was a lot to talk about.  But what we didnt' talk about was that ehunt was dead, or more specifically who ehunt was very suspicious of.  It was nice to reread day 1 with the mindset of ehunt is town, joth is scum.  ehunts largest reads as far as I could tell were Joth and CF.  Normally I would say it is way too obvious for scum to kill town that is suspecting them but I think Galz blew up just enough that they were sure there would be plenty else to talk about.  This basically confirms to me CF is scum.

[ashersky]

IF you were town I would lose a lot of confidence in my reads.  Too bad you aren't town.

So I just did a reread of day 1.  I was going to do a reread of both day 1 and 2 but had to come post this.  I feel like a lot got lost day 1.  Galz exploded.  Yuma hammered.  There was a lot to talk about.  But what we didnt' talk about was that ehunt was dead, or more specifically who ehunt was very suspicious of.  It was nice to reread day 1 with the mindset of ehunt is town, joth is scum.  ehunts largest reads as far as I could tell were Joth and CF.  Normally I would say it is way too obvious for scum to kill town that is suspecting them but I think Galz blew up just enough that they were sure there would be plenty else to talk about.  This basically confirms to me CF is scum.

You'll recall I was all over Frisk on D1/D2, so I'm definitely still wary of him.  I'm not convinced he's the right person to lynch today, though.  I mean, clearly if he's scum, we need to lynch him, but there are other cases out there.  I think Volt's right that we don't want L-1 on anyone yet.

Do you think one of Qvist or Axxle is the third?

[TheMunch]

I think the final 2 scum are among CF/Ash/Volt/Qvist.  I had said this a bunch of posts back.  So of that question, Qvist or Axxle, I would choose Qvist.  If Volt's claim is true then it makes my list a winner with one mislynch but I would never make town just kill off my shortlist.  Its almost like driving the town is a terrible thing to do and proposing a shortlist to lynch in some order is a terrible thing to do.  Hmm... I wonder who else in this game proposed a short list that we should kill in order... I dont remember... It was someone really scummy... Oh. I remember.

[Captain_Frisk]

Wow - I skipped Volt's claim.  I am not the cop.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh - and the munch - if nobody counter claims, then volt is pretty clearly the cop, or a townie is playing SUPER BAD.

[ashersky]

I think the final 2 scum are among CF/Ash/Volt/Qvist.  I had said this a bunch of posts back.  So of that question, Qvist or Axxle, I would choose Qvist.  If Volt's claim is true then it makes my list a winner with one mislynch but I would never make town just kill off my shortlist.  Its almost like driving the town is a terrible thing to do and proposing a shortlist to lynch in some order is a terrible thing to do.  Hmm... I wonder who else in this game proposed a short list that we should kill in order... I dont remember... It was someone really scummy... Oh. I remember.

I do agree that trying to lead town and the short list thing read scummy to me coming from Frisk.  I even pointed it out on multiple occassions.

I am interested in how short lists are formed though.  Why do you completely give yuma and Axxle passes?  Especially Axxle?

[Captain_Frisk]

Yuma and qvist left?

[Captain_Frisk]

I think the final 2 scum are among CF/Ash/Volt/Qvist.  I had said this a bunch of posts back.  So of that question, Qvist or Axxle, I would choose Qvist.  If Volt's claim is true then it makes my list a winner with one mislynch but I would never make town just kill off my shortlist.  Its almost like driving the town is a terrible thing to do and proposing a shortlist to lynch in some order is a terrible thing to do.  Hmm... I wonder who else in this game proposed a short list that we should kill in order... I dont remember... It was someone really scummy... Oh. I remember.

I do agree that trying to lead town and the short list thing read scummy to me coming from Frisk.  I even pointed it out on multiple occassions.

I am interested in how short lists are formed though.  Why do you completely give yuma and Axxle passes?  Especially Axxle?

I certainly didn't give Axxle any passes, he's on my list for sure.  I'm very curious to see why TheMunch doesn't think Axxle is scummy.

[Voltgloss]

Yuma and qvist left?

Yup.  Qvist is online, so I expect we'll hear from him soon.  And yuma usually gets online in the evenings (EST), so hopefully we won't have too long to wait for him either.

[ashersky]

Yuma and qvist left?

yuma claimed VT yesterday, right?  Axxle, Qvist, and TheMunch left.  Axxle and TheMunch both opposed claiming...

Could joth/Axxle/themunch even be possible?

[Voltgloss]

Yuma and qvist left?

yuma claimed VT yesterday, right?  Axxle, Qvist, and TheMunch left.  Axxle and TheMunch both opposed claiming...

Could joth/Axxle/themunch even be possible?

yuma did claim VT, but I still want to wait for him.

[TheMunch]

Question: Why would someone be vehemently opposed to a plan which we math'd out had a <50% chance of being successful for town?  Especially commenting that it was bad before these maths were out?  That strikes me as quite town, especially because I am in the same boat. 

I know for a fact I will not claim.  Especially not a "not cop" claim.  You know what is fun about "not cop" claims?  Scum doesn't have to lie when they say they are not cop...

[Captain_Frisk]

Question: Why would someone be vehemently opposed to a plan which we math'd out had a <50% chance of being successful for town?  Especially commenting that it was bad before these maths were out?  That strikes me as quite town, especially because I am in the same boat. 

I know for a fact I will not claim.  Especially not a "not cop" claim.  You know what is fun about "not cop" claims?  Scum doesn't have to lie when they say they are not cop...

Thats fine the munch, but if you were a cop, you'd know that voltgloss was lying, and then you'd be voting for him because he'd be slam dunk scum lynch.  Ergo, you're not a cop.

And yes, I'm in favor of any plan that increases town's chances to win.  I believe that volt's plan obtains the maximum value for town out of his role.  If he's confirmed as the cop then I don't need to have my suspicion of him.

If we hit scum, then we get a guaranteed investigation - because the doctor will protect him.

[TheMunch]

Is it time for Volt to explain himself?  I would like it if he did.

[Voltgloss]

Is it time for Volt to explain himself?  I would like it if he did.

Waiting for Qvist and yuma.

[Captain_Frisk]

Is it time for Volt to explain himself?  I would like it if he did.

Waiting for Qvist and yuma.

Volt, you may find the user  locator of particular interest right now.

[Voltgloss]

Is it time for Volt to explain himself?  I would like it if he did.

Waiting for Qvist and yuma.

Volt, you may find the user  locator of particular interest right now.

Trust me, I do.

[Captain_Frisk]

Is it time for Volt to explain himself?  I would like it if he did.

Waiting for Qvist and yuma.

Volt, you may find the user  locator of particular interest right now.

Trust me, I do.

Itsbeen interesting since 7:15

[Qvist]

I just wanted to do a quick read before I go to bed (its already 1am here), but now I have to post at least a short post.

Here are the facts:
I'm Cop, I didn't get a result on nights 1 and 2, but on night 3 I got a result. I investigated Captain_Frisk and he's not mafia, so I was wrong the whole time on him too.
Voltgloss, nice try, but this isn't going to work with all your math trying to hide your real intentions. Even after most didn't agree with your plan, you just kept going and just claimed.
Guys, I hope you all make the right decision. I can't help you much more.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist, how long did it take for you to write that "short post?"
And how long was that "quick read?"

[Qvist]

Is it time for Volt to explain himself?  I would like it if he did.

Waiting for Qvist and yuma.

Volt, you may find the user  locator of particular interest right now.

Trust me, I do.

Itsbeen interesting since 7:15

Haha, yeah. I replied to a lot of what was said before and then the claim happened and I had to start over.

[Voltgloss]

That didn't answer my questions.

[TheMunch]

For some reason I believe Qvist's claim over Voltgloss' but I am having a hard time believing CF is not scum.  Also that Qvist got a result night 3...

[Qvist]

Qvist, how long did it take for you to write that "short post?"
And how long was that "quick read?"

Yeah, like I said. I wanted to do a quick read, wanted to comment on the mass claim math, thought about the correctness of the math and such and then you claimed. So there you have it. Believe it or not.

[TheMunch]

For some reason I believe Qvist's claim over Voltgloss' but I am having a hard time believing CF is not scum.  Also that Qvist got a result night 3...

I could see scum being sure that Eevee was cop to the point where they were willing to risk an investigation to make sure the kill went through.

[Axxle]

Whew, I'm not crazy.  I was pretty sure QVist was cop as of yesterday IRL.

Vote: Voltgloss

[Captain_Frisk]

The munch what are your reads on this?

Axxle same question.

[Qvist]

For some reason I believe Qvist's claim over Voltgloss' but I am having a hard time believing CF is not scum.  Also that Qvist got a result night 3...

I could see scum being sure that Eevee was cop to the point where they were willing to risk an investigation to make sure the kill went through.

Maybe. They could only switch one PR and they seemed to choose to switch Doctor.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist, how long did it take for you to write that "short post?"
And how long was that "quick read?"

Yeah, like I said. I wanted to do a quick read, wanted to comment on the mass claim math, thought about the correctness of the math and such and then you claimed. So there you have it. Believe it or not.

How long was your quick read?  In minutes.  Nearest 5 or 10 will do.
How long were you writing your post?  In minutes.  Nearest 5 will do.
Who do you claim you tried to investigate each night?  And why?
Why did you claim to investigate Captain_Frisk last night?

While Qvist works on fabricating answers to those questions, I'll explain what's going on.

[TheMunch]

Whats the votecount?

Also I was the most immediate with my reads... unlike other people (volt).  My gut is having me believe Qvists claim DESPITE the fact that that would absolve you... also I came up with enough of a plausible reason to believe the investigation went through night 3.  I was already pretty sure one of Volt/Qvist was scum.  I didn't need a claim to be more sure of that... 

[TheMunch]

Qvist, how long did it take for you to write that "short post?"
And how long was that "quick read?"

Yeah, like I said. I wanted to do a quick read, wanted to comment on the mass claim math, thought about the correctness of the math and such and then you claimed. So there you have it. Believe it or not.

How long was your quick read?  In minutes.  Nearest 5 or 10 will do.
How long were you writing your post?  In minutes.  Nearest 5 will do.
Who do you claim you tried to investigate each night?  And why?
Why did you claim to investigate Captain_Frisk last night?

While Qvist works on fabricating answers to those questions, I'll explain what's going on.

Naw.  Someone else explain whats going on.

[Voltgloss]

Here is the deal.

I received an investigation result last night.

I was flabbergasted to get one.  I was sure scum would switch off the Cop and run the slight risk of the Doctor matching their nightkill.  I was also sure scum would kill either Munch or me.  Yet they didn't do any of that.

I finally figured out why when I did my reread.  They switched off the Doctor and killed Eevee... because they were sure Eevee was the Cop (and expected him to draw the Doctor's protection).

Why?  Look at this post of Eevee's on Day 2:

Everything about joth is just so scummy. Barring power role results, I doubt I'll ever get this strong of a scum read with this little information.

They thought Eevee was breadcrumbing Cop.

Eevee, if you're reading this, and if that was an intentional ploy to draw scum's fire onto a VT, my hat is off to you.

Ramifications of my investigation to come in my next post.

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist volt

Whodidyou target each night and why?

[Captain_Frisk]

Fast guys.

[Voltgloss]

So, who did I investigate?

Captain_Frisk.  Captain_Frisk is town.

I investigated Frisk because:
(1) he was the person on whom I had the most null read;
(2) I thought there was a fair chance he was scum, for the same reasons Munch has cited to suspect him today;
(3) I thought that, if he WAS town, he was going to come under a lot of fire today as the scum's preferred mislynch; and
(4) I was sure he wasn't the Doctor, because if he had, he would have counterclaimed joth.

This last bit - re: the Doctor - is more important than it sounds.  I'll come back to that in a bit.

But yeah.  CF is town.  Sorry Munch.

[Voltgloss]

And Grujah before me targeted Robz on Night 0, and yuma on Night 1. 

[Qvist]

Qvist, how long did it take for you to write that "short post?"
And how long was that "quick read?"

Yeah, like I said. I wanted to do a quick read, wanted to comment on the mass claim math, thought about the correctness of the math and such and then you claimed. So there you have it. Believe it or not.

How long was your quick read?  In minutes.  Nearest 5 or 10 will do.
How long were you writing your post?  In minutes.  Nearest 5 will do.
Who do you claim you tried to investigate each night?  And why?
Why did you claim to investigate Captain_Frisk last night?

While Qvist works on fabricating answers to those questions, I'll explain what's going on.

Man, I don't know exactly. I was doing a quick read in a few minutes until I got to your math. I was checking if the math is correct, that was ~10 minutes. Then my wife came in and said good night. And then I found your claim and responded, I don't know ~20 minutes.

I investigated Robz, CF, CF on the 3 nights. Robz was random and CF looked scummy to me as you all know.
Why shouldn't I claim to investigate CF? I had to claim Cop because you fakeclaimed. Then I can also claim what I know, or not?

[ashersky]

Given this is all huge, I do have to say that since both of you claim to have gotten a result, my big reason for wanting to not believe Qvist just went away.  Plus, awfully easy for the second claimer to match the first (since Qvist "risked" lying with the result claim first)....man, this is tough.

PPE--And you claim to have targeted the same person!  The claims are exact...

[TheMunch]

NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU. BOTH COPS CLAIMED CF IS TOWN!?!? DUFUQ

[ashersky]

Both players claim cop.  Volt first, then Qvist.

Both players claim CF town.  Qvist first, then Volt.

Is the first or second claimer usually lying?  But then, first or second on which part? 

[Captain_Frisk]

Volt - I gotta say you are super scummy right now

[Voltgloss]

Now, here's the most interesting thing.

There are 3 people in the game who knew that the Cop got an investigation result last night.  The Cop, and the two scum.

The two scum did NOT know what investigation result the Cop received.

So, when the Cop (me) claimed, WITHOUT yet announcing the investigation result, they had no idea what the result was going to be.  So what do they do?

One of them counterclaims.  That is Qvist.
The other waits, and waits, and waits, and says NOTHING of substance (while other players ARE discussing substantive reads), until his scumbuddy counterclaims. 

That of course is Axxle.

This is part of why I handled things the way I did.  I may not have caught scum in my investigation.  But I sure as hell have caught BOTH of the scum in the claiming process.

And there is more.

[Axxle]

Both players claim cop.  Volt first, then Qvist.

Both players claim CF town.  Qvist first, then Volt.

Is the first or second claimer usually lying?  But then, first or second on which part?

Volt is on the scummy side of both of these.

[Captain_Frisk]

And I am conf town. Eat it doubters!!!!

[Qvist]

Really? You claim the same thing. You make it way too easy.

[ashersky]

And I am conf town. Eat it doubters!!!!

Fair enough...

We have to lynch one of the two, right?  If we're wrong, we get the liar tomorrow?

[Voltgloss]

Munch asked why I claimed back when I first originally claimed.

The answer:  Because if I did not claim today, Captain_Frisk was likely going to be mislynched.

If so much pressure wasn't focused on the ONE OTHER PERSON I knew to be town, I may not have claimed as I did.  But there was, and it wasn't letting up.  TheMunch himself made 100% clear that he wouldn't move his vote from CF unless it was shown CF was town.  Well.  That's what I did.

[ashersky]

All, especially Frisk: if VG is the liar, who is his partner?

[Axxle]

QVist completely backing off of CF today makes it clear that he's cop and investigated him last night.

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle get your vote off.

[TheMunch]

And I am conf town. Eat it doubters!!!!

STOP PLAYING SO SCUMMY!!!!  I honestly cant believe that you were genuine when you were surprised by my hammer.  That read so disingenuous that I was FOR SURE you were scum.  I refuse to give any reads for the rest of this game as they are FOR SURE wrong. (Spoiler: I'm not going to stop giving you my reads.... BAHAHA YOU WILL TAKE MY BAD READS AND LIKE THEM!!)

[Qvist]

Munch asked why I claimed back when I first originally claimed.

The answer:  Because if I did not claim today, Captain_Frisk was likely going to be mislynched.

If so much pressure wasn't focused on the ONE OTHER PERSON I knew to be town, I may not have claimed as I did.  But there was, and it wasn't letting up.  TheMunch himself made 100% clear that he wouldn't move his vote from CF unless it was shown CF was town.  Well.  That's what I did.

CF was going to be mislynched? How? He was still at L-2, same as you.

[Captain_Frisk]

Everyone unvote.

[ashersky]

Also, lamely enough, I have to go to a meeting in 15 minutes...argh!  Do I need to vote before I go?

Both "cops" are at L-2.

[Voltgloss]

I didn't say CF was going to be "quickhammered," scumQvist.  I said he was going to be mislynched.  That was the trend, the direction the day was going. 

By the way, notice how I've been saying ever since day start that CF was town?  Yeah, the reason should be obvious.

Did Qvist ever say that?

[TheMunch]

I'M STILL VOTING CF!  I DONT EVEN CARE

Unvote...

[Qvist]

Munch asked why I claimed back when I first originally claimed.

The answer:  Because if I did not claim today, Captain_Frisk was likely going to be mislynched.

If so much pressure wasn't focused on the ONE OTHER PERSON I knew to be town, I may not have claimed as I did.  But there was, and it wasn't letting up.  TheMunch himself made 100% clear that he wouldn't move his vote from CF unless it was shown CF was town.  Well.  That's what I did.

CF was going to be mislynched? How? He was still at L-2, same as you.

Wait, I think you claimed as he even only had one vote. Exactly after Axxle switched from CF to you, you claimed. This makes no sense.

[Captain_Frisk]

Someone with a computer: go back and look at what volt and qvist have said about me today.

[Captain_Frisk]

Any breadcrumbs?

[ashersky]

Sorry, I just updated Pandemic, but I won't be able to post much here now. Just a few notes.

I really don't know what to think about TheMunch, was it just a horrible town mistake which indeed got lucky hitting the right one? It seems so, but then why didn't he get nightkilled?
And I was willing to hammer him, but after the claim I wanted to check first if joth's claim could made sense. Maybe someone counterclaims. And TheMunch hammered him before I could check anything. I don't know why this looks scummy to you all.

Either way, I have to rethink my suspects. I will post tommorow.

Qvist's first post of D3.  Bolded for emphasis.  Could mean something.

[Voltgloss]

Also, the attached picture shows when Qvist started reading the thread.  Not 7:15.  6:56.  He'd been working on his fakeclaim for over 45 minutes.

[Qvist]

CF, you did the L-1 on jotheonah which gives you some credibility points although we can't be sure that no scum was voting for jotheonah.

I only said this about you CF, because I thought that completely switching would be too obvious for scum.

[Voltgloss]

And the attached pic shows that Qvist was actually writing his fakeclaim post for over 13 minutes.

[ashersky]

Also, the attached picture shows when Qvist started reading the thread.  Not 7:15.  6:56.  He'd been working on his fakeclaim for over 45 minutes.

I don't know, man.  Scum!Frisk loves the user checker thingy.  I very often leave pages open when I tab to other program, walk away from my desk, etc.

Just feels wrong to play forum mafia that way.

Also, that fake claim sucks for 45-minutes of prep.  You're feeling worse and worse to me VG.  I don't know what to do.



PPE -- on a bigger note, screenshots of things, especially timing stuff, probably need to be discussed on a f.ds scale for games...

[Voltgloss]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

[ashersky]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

Part of this I definitely agree with.  If we mislynch the real cop, we have the right lynch tomorrow.

Is there any sense in not risking it and lynching the likely third?

[Captain_Frisk]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

Are you confident enough on this to self vote?

[ashersky]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

Are you confident enough on this to self vote?

IF he self-votes, I will absolutely vote for him.  That's be hugely anti-town if he's the real cop.

[TheMunch]

Vote: Qvist

This will tell a lot.

[Qvist]

You know that I'm not a native speaker right? I start a sentence and then have to rewrite it because it sound wrong. Try to join German Mafia.
I said ~20 minutes and it was 13 minutes, so it's fine isn't it. I started with commenting way before I read the claim. I already said that.
And you know how "currently viewing" works. I can my computer on the whole day and ... I don't know why I have to write this ... before I got to the bathroom and such, I checked for new messages and already opened the threads in tabs I wanted to read. I went to bad with my netbook and clicked on "Replay", so this was ~20 minutes before the post. So, it's fine. Believe me or not.

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, the attached picture shows when Qvist started reading the thread.  Not 7:15.  6:56.  He'd been working on his fakeclaim for over 45 minutes.

I don't know, man.  Scum!Frisk loves the user checker thingy.  I very often leave pages open when I tab to other program, walk away from my desk, etc.

Just feels wrong to play forum mafia that way.

Also, that fake claim sucks for 45-minutes of prep.  You're feeling worse and worse to me VG.  I don't know what to do.



PPE -- on a bigger note, screenshots of things, especially timing stuff, probably need to be discussed on a f.ds scale for games...

When did scum frisk love the user checker?

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Qvist

This will tell a lot.

Stop it

[Axxle]

PPE -- on a bigger note, screenshots of things, especially timing stuff, probably need to be discussed on a f.ds scale for games...

I am not a fan of this.  Its a complete null tell usually.

also:

Man, I don't know exactly. I was doing a quick read in a few minutes until I got to your math. I was checking if the math is correct, that was ~10 minutes. Then my wife came in and said good night. And then I found your claim and responded, I don't know ~20 minutes.

I investigated Robz, CF, CF on the 3 nights. Robz was random and CF looked scummy to me as you all know.
Why shouldn't I claim to investigate CF? I had to claim Cop because you fakeclaimed. Then I can also claim what I know, or not?

He was distracted.

[ashersky]

Is that L-1 for Q and L-2 for V?

Leaves me and Frisk not voting (for the "cops").  Where are you leaning?

[Voltgloss]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

Are you confident enough on this to self vote?

I'm 95% confident.  That doesn't mean I want to lynch myself today.

The best course is for town to lynch Qvist.  Then the cop protects me, I investigate Axxle, and on the 5% chance he's ridiculously deluded we instead lynch the remaining suspects.  We should be able to win 100% with one mislynch available.

[Captain_Frisk]

Try to join German Mafia. .

Scum or town, we need to make this happen.

[ashersky]

Also, the attached picture shows when Qvist started reading the thread.  Not 7:15.  6:56.  He'd been working on his fakeclaim for over 45 minutes.

I don't know, man.  Scum!Frisk loves the user checker thingy.  I very often leave pages open when I tab to other program, walk away from my desk, etc.

Just feels wrong to play forum mafia that way.

Also, that fake claim sucks for 45-minutes of prep.  You're feeling worse and worse to me VG.  I don't know what to do.



PPE -- on a bigger note, screenshots of things, especially timing stuff, probably need to be discussed on a f.ds scale for games...

When did scum frisk love the user checker?

Didn't you use it to great effect in ZMV?

[TheMunch]

Vote: Qvist

This will tell a lot.

Stop it

okay...

unvote

[Captain_Frisk]

Is that L-1 for Q and L-2 for V?

Leaves me and Frisk not voting (for the "cops").  Where are you leaning?

I am leaning on not voting.  We have a week right.??

[ashersky]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

Part of this I definitely agree with.  If we mislynch the real cop, we have the right lynch tomorrow.

Is there any sense in not risking it and lynching the likely third?

Any thoughts of my question?  I think we probably definitely need to lynch one of the two cops, but don't know if there's some theory work out there that makes sense to leave them both alive?

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 3-4

Qvist (2) - yuma, Voltgloss {L-2}
Voltgloss (2) - Qvist, Axxle {L-2}
Axxle (1) - Ashersky

Not Voting (2) - Captain_Frisk, TheMunch

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: December 12 2012, 8:20am PST (11:20am forum time)

[Captain_Frisk]

We are not ending the day while I'm giving my son a bath

[ashersky]

unvote

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 3-5

Qvist (2) - yuma, Voltgloss {L-2}
Voltgloss (2) - Qvist, Axxle {L-2}

Not Voting (3) - Captain_Frisk, TheMunch, Ashersky

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: December 12 2012, 8:20am PST (11:20am forum time)

[ashersky]

Alright, as mentioned, I'm away from a computer for next the next couple hours.  Please don't end the day prematurely!

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

[Voltgloss]

Remember Qvist's response to my massclaim proposal.

On top of all of that, notice how Qvist completely ignored weighing in on my massclaim proposal. 

Sorry, I didn't ignore it. I just don't know if this is a good idea. And I tried to evaluate that, but had a hard time. But I think you brought up a valid point, it might work, but is really risky.

Would you expect a Town Cop to give such a lukewarm no-response response?

This is part of WHY I wanted to have discussion of massclaim.  So that if scum fakeclaimed me, they would have already gone on record in a way that undermines their fakeclaim.

[Qvist]

So, it's 2.30 am now, I really have to go to sleep. And I'm not sure when or if I'm able to post tomorrow because I have a meeting at work and an appointment in the evening.

[Axxle]

Remember Qvist's response to my massclaim proposal.

On top of all of that, notice how Qvist completely ignored weighing in on my massclaim proposal. 

Sorry, I didn't ignore it. I just don't know if this is a good idea. And I tried to evaluate that, but had a hard time. But I think you brought up a valid point, it might work, but is really risky.

Would you expect a Town Cop to give such a lukewarm no-response response?

This is part of WHY I wanted to have discussion of massclaim.  So that if scum fakeclaimed me, they would have already gone on record in a way that undermines their fakeclaim.

I would expect a NEW PLAYER to do that.  He doesn't know if it will work or not.

[Voltgloss]

Here is my second post of the topic, regarding my knowing that CF is town.

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

Munch, the posts of CF's you cite are actually the key evidence that, in my mind, paints CF as town.  If CF were really joth's scumbuddy, do you think he'd "reveal" their plan in this way AFTER you'd dropped the hammer and there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it?

I think you v. CF is town v. town, with scum lurking on the sidelines deciding which of you to "support" against the other.

May I instead suggest Qvist.  He ALSO "wanted Joth to claim"; he "threatened" to hammer Joth to put "pressure" on him; and then immediately withdrew that threat once Joth fakeclaimed (but BEFORE you hammered).  And then was utterly silent after the hammer fell.

THAT rings my scumalarms.  Not CF. 

CF:  could you explain again your reasoning for excluding Qvist from your "scummy 5" theory?  Does Qvist's behavior after you announced that theory cause you to question that read?

[yuma]

so much going on... going to take me a while to catch up. Plus I need to study for a test tomorrow, so dont' expect too much from me.

Please let's not lynch til tomorrow at least.

[Captain_Frisk]

Insomniac:

Can joth post in the mafia qt?

[Voltgloss]

Remember Qvist's response to my massclaim proposal.

On top of all of that, notice how Qvist completely ignored weighing in on my massclaim proposal. 

Sorry, I didn't ignore it. I just don't know if this is a good idea. And I tried to evaluate that, but had a hard time. But I think you brought up a valid point, it might work, but is really risky.

Would you expect a Town Cop to give such a lukewarm no-response response?

This is part of WHY I wanted to have discussion of massclaim.  So that if scum fakeclaimed me, they would have already gone on record in a way that undermines their fakeclaim.

I would expect a NEW PLAYER to do that.  He doesn't know if it will work or not.

I would expect a NEW PLAYER WITH A POWER ROLE to be scared out of his wits by the prospect of massclaim, making him the scum's nightkill target.  That's most definitely NOT what happened.

You, on the other hand, knew it WOULD work.  That's why you vehemently opposed it, with shifting rationales - first with "I don't have to give reasons," and then with "your math is wrong," and then "math doesn't matter anyway."

[Voltgloss]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

Part of this I definitely agree with.  If we mislynch the real cop, we have the right lynch tomorrow.

Is there any sense in not risking it and lynching the likely third?

Any thoughts of my question?  I think we probably definitely need to lynch one of the two cops, but don't know if there's some theory work out there that makes sense to leave them both alive?

I absolutely agree that a "claimed cop" should be lynched.  The fake one.  Qvist.

And you want to decide today, while we can still afford a mislynch, so that IF you mess up and lynch me the town can still achieve a win.

[Captain_Frisk]

Volt: I'd like a detailed explanation as to why you didn't cop axxle

[yuma]

not sure what is going on yet, but unvote for now

[Captain_Frisk]

The best part is that, even IF you folks err by lynching me today, we still win. 
Lynch Qvist tomorrow.  Lynch Axxle the day after that. 

Case closed.

Part of this I definitely agree with.  If we mislynch the real cop, we have the right lynch tomorrow.

Is there any sense in not risking it and lynching the likely third?

Any thoughts of my question?  I think we probably definitely need to lynch one of the two cops, but don't know if there's some theory work out there that makes sense to leave them both alive?

I absolutely agree that a "claimed cop" should be lynched.  The fake one.  Qvist.

And you want to decide today, while we can still afford a mislynch, so that IF you mess up and lynch me the town can still achieve a win.

Why are you referring to town as you?

[Voltgloss]

QVistVoltgloss completely backing off of CF today makes it clear that he's cop and investigated him last night.

FTFY

[Captain_Frisk]

not sure what is going on yet, but unvote for now

We will definitely not lynch if I can help it - but I want your read on the situation

[Voltgloss]

Volt: I'd like a detailed explanation as to why you didn't cop axxle

I gave my reasons for copping you. 
The reason I didn't cop Axxle is BECAUSE I thought he was scum.

As cop, the best use of your investigation is on people you have null-reads on.  See http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cop.  (last line)

I have real difficulty reading you CF.  And I was sure that, whether you were scum OR town, my knowing that info would be important today.  If you were scum, I want to know that.  If you were town, you were going to come under heavy heat, and I should know that to preclude a mislynch. 

[TheMunch]

not sure what is going on yet, but unvote for now

We will definitely not lynch if I can help it - but I want your read on the situation

Look at you saying "we" like you are part of town... Not like you are IC or something...

[yuma]

I lean toward a Qvist lynch. But that was just from a really really quick skim.

back to moulds, yeasts and intestinal worms...

[Axxle]

QVistVoltgloss completely backing off of CF today makes it clear that he's cop and investigated him last night.

FTFY

When were you critical of him to have "backed off"? The extent QVist was and how he slowly backed off him makes him seem much more like a cop.

[Axxle]

Unvote

[Insomniac]

Insomniac:

Can joth post in the mafia qt?

No he lost access to it when he died. (Therefore he was not posting in it last night)

[Voltgloss]

QVistVoltgloss completely backing off of CF today makes it clear that he's cop and investigated him last night.

FTFY

When were you critical of him to have "backed off"? The extent QVist was and how he slowly backed off him makes him seem much more like a cop.

Here:

No time.  No time.  Argh, no time.

I hate posting scumrankings without analysis but I have no time to write the analysis!

If yuma is TOWN, I suspect (in ranking order):
1. ashersky
2. Qvist
3. Captain_Frisk

If yuma is SCUM, I suspect (in ranking order after yuma):
1. Axxle
2. Eevee

yuma's VT claim has me thinking and I need to mull that more.  I would have expected scum in yuma's shoes to claim the power role that he is the "switch" for, to at least get a counterclaim and get that power role nullified in the night via nightkill so scum keeps its lock on the town's powers.

And here:

Y'know whose thoughts on yuma I would really like to see at this point?  Frisk's.

Frisk has positioned himself as the deciding vote re: yuma.  The order of declarations was:

1. Volt makes case on yuma
2. Eevee rejects case
3. jotheonah agrees with case
4. ashersky agrees with case
5. TheMunch agrees with case (L-1); Eevee tells people to slow down
6. Captain_Frisk weighs both sides
7. Qvist rejects case
8. Axxle rejects case

I'm not asking Frisk to plop down a vote and hammer, but I would like to know how (if at all) his reads on yuma have changed since he last considered the case on yuma.  (If this is already in a previous post and I missed it, I apologize.)

When's our deadline?

And here:

Lynch preferences, from "most preferred" to "least preferred":

1. Axxle
2. ashersky

3. Joth
4. Qvist
5. CF

6. Eevee
7. Munch
8. yuma

9. Volt


3/4/5 are all very close together in terms of preference.  6/7/8 are also all very close together.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

Notice how Qvist ignored this question, signing off instead.  That is because it has no good answer.  Because I am town.

[Axxle]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

Notice how Qvist ignored this question, signing off instead.  That is because it has no good answer.  Because I am town.

Or because it's 3 in the freaking morning where he is.

[Axxle]

And that is not being critical of CF at all.  That's him being grouped together in the middle all day.

[Voltgloss]

OK, I am about to get in a car and be driving for about 40 minutes, and then family responsibilities.  I'll be back at a computer working late tonight.  If any town players have questions that they'd like me to address, or that I've missed, I'll address them then.

We're in good shape, gang.  Make the right call by lynching Qvist, and we win 100%.  Make the wrong call, well that sucks, but the by far most likely path to victory on the last two days is still clear.

[Captain_Frisk]

In the history of f.ds, when has the counter claimer been wrong?

[Captain_Frisk]

And the attached pic shows that Qvist was actually writing his fakeclaim post for over 13 minutes.

Anyone else not seeing the pic here?  I saw it on my ipad earlier, but now its gone?

[Dr Jekyll]

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

[yuma]

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

vote: Dr. Jekyll

[Captain_Frisk]

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

Sorry - that was me in my other browser - which was still logged in a jekyll.  You can see the attachments in IE, but not in Chrome.

[TheMunch]

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaait.

[Captain_Frisk]

Disclaimer: Volt also has access to that account.

[Captain_Frisk]

Interesting to see people still paying attention enough to jump on a Jekyll slip, but nobody is posting!

[yuma]

I prefer Qvist over Volt, but again I haven't really sat down and reread really well what has happend in this last day. I probably won't be able to do so until tomorrow. So I really can't say who I think the scummate is. but will let you know when I do.

[yuma]

Interesting to see people still paying attention enough to jump on a Jekyll slip, but nobody is posting!

I get posts sent to my e-mail account which makes a nice blip sound every time a new e-mail comes in. I am checking stuff as it comes in, but am not in a position to make really heavy reads analysis at the moment.

[TheMunch]

Interesting to see people still paying attention enough to jump on a Jekyll slip, but nobody is posting!

I dont think you want me posting.

[Axxle]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

[Captain_Frisk]

Interesting to see people still paying attention enough to jump on a Jekyll slip, but nobody is posting!

I dont think you want me posting.

I just don't want you voting.  I want to know who you think the scum buddy is.  (Hint: It isn't me!)

[Captain_Frisk]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

Whats wrong with the munch?

[Axxle]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

Whats wrong with the munch?

He isn't scum is what's wrong with him.

[Captain_Frisk]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

Whats wrong with the munch?

He isn't scum is what's wrong with him.

Why is he clear from your perspective?

[yuma]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

explain this...

[Axxle]

Players left:
1. Captain_Frisk
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced
6. Axxle
8. yuma
10. ashersky
11. QVist
12. TheMunch

Obvtown:
1. Captain_Frisk
6. Axxle

Cop or Scum:
5. Grujah - Voltgloss Replaced
11. QVist

Superlikely town:
12. TheMunch

VT or Scum:
8. yuma
10. ashersky

[TheMunch]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

Whats wrong with the munch?

I'm confused by this question

[Axxle]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

Whats wrong with the munch?

He isn't scum is what's wrong with him.

Why is he clear from your perspective?

The joth hammer without waiting for a counter claim.

[yuma]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

explain this...

explain the part about me being more likely scum if qvist is scum.

[Axxle]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

explain this...

explain the part about me being more likely scum if qvist is scum.

I think you're more scummy than ashersky in general, but you're probably not scum if Volt is.

[Voltgloss]

Notice how 100% rock-solid sure Axxle is that I am scum and Qvist is town.

Now notice how all the rest of you are unsure as to which of us (me or Qvist) is town and which is scum.

Your unsurety is how town SHOULD feel, and act, in this situation.  You don't know which of us is the liar, and you're trying to figure it out.

Why is Axxle so 100% rock-solid sure? 
There is only one explanation:  he knows which of us is town.  (Me.)  And he knows because he is scum.  (With Qvist.)

Remember:  from scum's perspective, if one of them gets lynched today, they lose the game.  With Follow-the-Cop, they are doomed.

So Axxle's only, ONLY, chance, is to convince you all that I am scum, get me lynched, and hope that you don't all lynch him on the final day after lynching Qvist tomorrow.

That's why he is trying so very hard.  It's his (and Qvist's) only hope.

[yuma]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

explain this...

explain the part about me being more likely scum if qvist is scum.

I think you're more scummy than ashersky in general, but you're probably not scum if Volt is.

again.... explain. I don't get see your train of thought. I just see you making statements that don't connect in my head.

[Voltgloss]

In the history of f.ds, when has the counter claimer been wrong?

In the very first game.  M-I.

[Axxle]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

explain this...

explain the part about me being more likely scum if qvist is scum.

I think you're more scummy than ashersky in general, but you're probably not scum if Volt is.

again.... explain. I don't get see your train of thought. I just see you making statements that don't connect in my head.

I find ashersky's VT claim very believeable, more so than yours.  In a vacuum I think you're more likely scum than he is.

I don't think Volt would have pushed your wagon so hard if he were scumbuddies with you, so if he flips scum you're cleared in my mind.  Therefore asher would have to be scum.

QVist didn't participate in your wagon, so if he flips scum you're very likely his buddy due to that plus the fact that you're scummy by yourself.

[Axxle]

Remember:  from scum's perspective, if one of them gets lynched today, they lose the game.  With Follow-the-Cop, they are doomed.

Then why in the world would QVist counterclaim?

[yuma]

One of: Voltgloss, Qvist is scum.  I think Volt is more likely

One of: yuma, ashersky is scum.  I think ashersky is more likely if Volt is scum.  Yuma is more scummy if Qvist is scum.

explain this...

explain the part about me being more likely scum if qvist is scum.

I think you're more scummy than ashersky in general, but you're probably not scum if Volt is.

again.... explain. I don't get see your train of thought. I just see you making statements that don't connect in my head.

I find ashersky's VT claim very believeable, more so than yours.  In a vacuum I think you're more likely scum than he is.

I don't think Volt would have pushed your wagon so hard if he were scumbuddies with you, so if he flips scum you're cleared in my mind.  Therefore asher would have to be scum.

QVist didn't participate in your wagon, so if he flips scum you're very likely his buddy due to that plus the fact that you're scummy by yourself.

and I take it that my voting for Qvist earlier today and declared willingness to vote for Qvist after the cop claims don't consider into your calculations?

[Voltgloss]

I don't think Volt would have pushed your wagon so hard if he were scumbuddies with you, so if he flips scum you're cleared in my mind.  Therefore asher would have to be scum.

So your theory is that I, joth, and ash voted 1-2-3 in immediate and quick succession on yuma on Day 2, all three of us being scum?

With me having replaced in after Day 2 started, and thus having no "opportunity" to converse with my supposed "scumbuddies?"

[Axxle]

and I take it that my voting for Qvist earlier today and declared willingness to vote for Qvist after the cop claims don't consider into your calculations?

Correct.  But I really don't care about that side because I really don't think he'll flip scum.

[Voltgloss]

Remember:  from scum's perspective, if one of them gets lynched today, they lose the game.  With Follow-the-Cop, they are doomed.

Then why in the world would QVist counterclaim?

Because you both expected that I had investigated Qvist and learned he was scum.  From your perspective, it would explain why I switched from mainly suspecting Axxle to mainly suspecting Qvist.

So Qvist figured counterclaiming was his only hope.

[Axxle]

I don't think Volt would have pushed your wagon so hard if he were scumbuddies with you, so if he flips scum you're cleared in my mind.  Therefore asher would have to be scum.

So your theory is that I, joth, and ash voted 1-2-3 in immediate and quick succession on yuma on Day 2, all three of us being scum?

With me having replaced in after Day 2 started, and thus having no "opportunity" to converse with my supposed "scumbuddies?"

I didn't really take that into account but I think you guys got cocky since you thought just one more mislynch + some WIFOM the next day would get you the win.

[yuma]

I don't think Volt would have pushed your wagon so hard if he were scumbuddies with you, so if he flips scum you're cleared in my mind.  Therefore asher would have to be scum.

So your theory is that I, joth, and ash voted 1-2-3 in immediate and quick succession on yuma on Day 2, all three of us being scum?

With me having replaced in after Day 2 started, and thus having no "opportunity" to converse with my supposed "scumbuddies?"

I didn't really take that into account but I think you guys got cocky since you thought just one more mislynch + some WIFOM the next day would get you the win.

not sure who "you guys" is referring to but i am anything but cocky right now....

[Axxle]

Volt joth ash

[Captain_Frisk]

In the history of f.ds, when has the counter claimer been wrong?

In the very first game.  M-I.

He was fingered as scum.  Doesn't work.

[ashersky]

In the history of f.ds, when has the counter claimer been wrong?

In the very first game.  M-I.

He was fingered as scum.  Doesn't work.

I counter claimed in hydras and was mislynched.  Is that what you are asking?  I counter claimed you in MX (different role) and was not lying (again) and we won.

In the games I've been in, I think all fake claims have been the first claim.  Not saying that's what's happening here, but it is my experience.

[Captain_Frisk]

In the history of f.ds, when has the counter claimer been wrong?

In the very first game.  M-I.

He was fingered as scum.  Doesn't work.

I counter claimed in hydras and was mislynched.  Is that what you are asking?  I counter claimed you in MX (different role) and was not lying (again) and we won.

In the games I've been in, I think all fake claims have been the first claim.  Not saying that's what's happening here, but it is my experience.

Thats my feeling as well.  I don't think we've ever seen a counter claim other than M-1 and in that case it was the caught scum false claiming.

[Captain_Frisk]

Notice how 100% rock-solid sure Axxle is that I am scum and Qvist is town.

Now notice how all the rest of you are unsure as to which of us (me or Qvist) is town and which is scum.

Your unsurety is how town SHOULD feel, and act, in this situation.  You don't know which of us is the liar, and you're trying to figure it out.

Why is Axxle so 100% rock-solid sure? 
There is only one explanation:  he knows which of us is town.  (Me.)  And he knows because he is scum.  (With Qvist.)

Remember:  from scum's perspective, if one of them gets lynched today, they lose the game.  With Follow-the-Cop, they are doomed.

So Axxle's only, ONLY, chance, is to convince you all that I am scum, get me lynched, and hope that you don't all lynch him on the final day after lynching Qvist tomorrow.

That's why he is trying so very hard.  It's his (and Qvist's) only hope.

Would you be willing to lynch Axxle first?

[ashersky]

Notice how 100% rock-solid sure Axxle is that I am scum and Qvist is town.

Now notice how all the rest of you are unsure as to which of us (me or Qvist) is town and which is scum.

Your unsurety is how town SHOULD feel, and act, in this situation.  You don't know which of us is the liar, and you're trying to figure it out.

Why is Axxle so 100% rock-solid sure? 
There is only one explanation:  he knows which of us is town.  (Me.)  And he knows because he is scum.  (With Qvist.)

Remember:  from scum's perspective, if one of them gets lynched today, they lose the game.  With Follow-the-Cop, they are doomed.

So Axxle's only, ONLY, chance, is to convince you all that I am scum, get me lynched, and hope that you don't all lynch him on the final day after lynching Qvist tomorrow.

That's why he is trying so very hard.  It's his (and Qvist's) only hope.

Would you be willing to lynch Axxle first?

Frisk, this was my line of thinking as well when I asked if we should lynch someone other than one of the cops.  I mean, I suppose they could then investigate each other, but we know where that would go, if they both lived.  The doctor has a 50% chance of protecting the real cop.  I don't know, I think it's worth figuring out the pros and cons.

[Captain_Frisk]

Frisk, this was my line of thinking as well when I asked if we should lynch someone other than one of the cops.  I mean, I suppose they could then investigate each other, but we know where that would go, if they both lived.  The doctor has a 50% chance of protecting the real cop.  I don't know, I think it's worth figuring out the pros and cons.

Why on earth would the cops investigate eachother?

[Axxle]

Not lynching a cop claim is a bad idea, you're just postponing it till tomorrow.

[TheMunch]

So we gotta figure out if we lynch one of qvist/volt and figure out which is scum, who the scumbuddy is, right?  But we might be wrong with who we lynch, meaning we would lose the investigation results.  Do we gain enough from lynching axxle to know which of the two cops is telling the truth?  I'm actually liking lynching axxle.  Only problem is if he is actually not scum...

[Captain_Frisk]

Not lynching a cop claim is a bad idea, you're just postponing it till tomorrow.

I'm talking to Volt.

[Voltgloss]

Would you be willing to lynch Axxle first?

I would prefer to lynch Qvist, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that Axxle is scum.

Lynching Qvist is better because then I can then investigate Axxle and confirm my 95% read to 100% certainty.  Or, if it's the 5% possibility of him just playing really really really badly as town, then we figure that out without a mislynch.

I think Qvist-or-me should be resolved today, while the town has a mislynch to spare. 

So at this point - no.  The town should lynch Qvist, who is 100% guaranteed scum.  I don't see a reason to settle for less.

[Voltgloss]

Thats my feeling as well.  I don't think we've ever seen a counter claim other than M-1 and in that case it was the caught scum false claiming.

That IS what happened here.  Qvist counterclaimed because he expected me to say "I investigated Qvist and he is scum, which is why I've been focused on him all Day 3."

[Captain_Frisk]

Thats my feeling as well.  I don't think we've ever seen a counter claim other than M-1 and in that case it was the caught scum false claiming.

That IS what happened here.  Qvist counterclaimed because he expected me to say "I investigated Qvist and he is scum, which is why I've been focused on him all Day 3."

Go back and reread qvist and the number of times he calls out axxle for lurking.

[Voltgloss]

Go back and reread qvist and the number of times he calls out axxle for lurking.

"Calls out," or "asks for advice?"

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm going to bed.  I don't want to talk too much without qvist online as well.

Qvist - tell us when I'll be available for some heart to heart.

[Voltgloss]

Hydra counterclaim is an inapplicable example.  It was Lylo there; scum had less on the line.  If they won the him-or-me, they won the game.  If they lost the him-or-me, they could still win on the following day.  Therefore, it made sense for scum to affirmatively force a him-or-me by fakeclaiming out of the gate.

Here, we have a mislynch to spare.  If I were scum going out of my way to force a him-or-me, I am guaranteeing that scum loses if I lose the him-or-me; but even if I win, scum has NOT won (because I'd be lynched the following day and then we'd still have to win at Lylo).

To sum up:
- In Hydra, scum WON if they won the him-or-me, and STILL COULD WIN even if they lost it.  So it made sense for them to force the him-or-me by fakeclaiming.
- Here, scum LOSES if they lose the him-or-me, and STILL COULD LOSE even if they win it.  So it makes no sense for scum to force the him-or-me.  They were forced into it instead.  By me, as town.

[ashersky]

Hydra counterclaim is an inapplicable example.  It was Lylo there; scum had less on the line.  If they won the him-or-me, they won the game.  If they lost the him-or-me, they could still win on the following day.  Therefore, it made sense for scum to affirmatively force a him-or-me by fakeclaiming out of the gate.

Here, we have a mislynch to spare.  If I were scum going out of my way to force a him-or-me, I am guaranteeing that scum loses if I lose the him-or-me; but even if I win, scum has NOT won (because I'd be lynched the following day and then we'd still have to win at Lylo).

To sum up:
- In Hydra, scum WON if they won the him-or-me, and STILL COULD WIN even if they lost it.  So it made sense for them to force the him-or-me by fakeclaiming.
- Here, scum LOSES if they lose the him-or-me, and STILL COULD LOSE even if they win it.  So it makes no sense for scum to force the him-or-me.  They were forced into it instead.  By me, as town.

Am I crazy for getting scummy feelings from these types of posts from VG?  They're like pre-planned arguments for why his scummy-seeming claim isn't actually scummy.  Lots of evidence and reasoning.  But then again, they are good arguments.  Bah, this sucks.

[Captain_Frisk]

You are not crazy.

[Captain_Frisk]

Hey guys, just because I'm conf town and I can lurk whenever I feel like it doesn't give the rest of you an excuse!  We still need to find Qvist / Volt's partner.

[Voltgloss]

Frisk, what are your thoughts on my #1267?

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh, I have lots of thoughts on it, but I'm very interested in the non ICs. 

Why do you think QVist chose me to "fake" investigate?

[Voltgloss]

Why do you think QVist chose me to "fake" investigate?

One or both of the following reasons:

1.  As a new scum player, trying to answer the question "if I were Cop, who would I have investigated," Qvist reasoned that the correct answer is "whoever I claimed most often to be scum - I'd want to try to confirm my biggest scumread."  When in fact the better use of a Cop's power is on someone who is a null read to the Cop.

2.  My suspicions as voiced during Day 3 had two significant changes from Day 2:  (1) I suspected Qvist more than anyone else, even Axxle; and (2) I was convinced you (Frisk) were town.  Qvist, as scum knowing that they let the Cop get away with an investigation last night, would reasonably assume I had investigated either him or you.  By claiming to have investigated you - my own most likely Town investigatory target - Qvist could sow confusion by making it appear I was "copying" his investigation result.

#1 is the simpler explanation and thus probably more likely.

[Captain_Frisk]

Do you think this counterclaim was planned?

[TheMunch]

@volt wrt 1: just because it's bad cop play doesn't mean that's not what he did, especially if he is new.

[Voltgloss]

Do you think this counterclaim was planned?

I think they planned that, if Eevee wasn't in fact the Cop, and if a Cop claimed today with an investigation result ON either one of them, then the incriminated party would counterfakeclaim.  It's their only hope to win in the face of impending Follow-the-Cop.

When I claimed Cop without revealing my investigation results, and waited for everybody to counterclaim-or-not, I think Qvist reasoned "if he investigated me and I don't counterfakeclaim right now, we lose; his posts today suggest he could have investigated me; I better counterfakeclaim while I have the chance."

Notice also how Axxle posted absolutely no content after my claim (other than his "back to the drawing board" unvote).  He was waiting for Qvist's counterfakeclaim, immediately after which he (Axxle) pounced to back it up.

[TheMunch]

Question. Why would scum counterclaim after we just outlined reasons why it was in fact very good for scum if only the real cop claimed?

[Voltgloss]

@volt wrt 1: just because it's bad cop play doesn't mean that's not what he did, especially if he is new.

That's my point.  It is what a new player could think they should do as a Cop - and that could be why Qvist claimed it; because that's what he would have done if he were really the Cop. 

I'm not trying to suggest that "Qvist selecting Frisk as his fake investigation target is strong evidence that Qvist is the faker."  It's weak evidence at best and more a nulltell than anything.  The only reason I discussed it is because Frisk specifically asked. 

The reasons why Qvist is the faker are the other facets I've described in my previous posts.

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle - what would it take to convince you that qvist is scum?

[TheMunch]

@volt wrt 1: just because it's bad cop play doesn't mean that's not what he did, especially if he is new.

That's my point.  It is what a new player could think they should do as a Cop - and that could be why Qvist claimed it; because that's what he would have done if he were really the Cop. 

I'm not trying to suggest that "Qvist selecting Frisk as his fake investigation target is strong evidence that Qvist is the faker."  It's weak evidence at best and more a nulltell than anything.  The only reason I discussed it is because Frisk specifically asked. 

The reasons why Qvist is the faker are the other facets I've described in my previous posts.

If its what they think they should do as cop this doesn't effect whether or not it would be what they fake claimed or what they actually would do as cop.  If he thinks as cop he investigates his scum reads, then thats what he is going to do.  It is in fact a nulltell but you were giving it in response to the question why did he chose to "fake" investigate CF.  It seems more like you are setting him up to look bad than giving facts.

Right now I'm wrestling with silver tongued VG which feels like he could be the liar, or new Qvist with Axxle very quick to Qvists defense.  I dont know if Scum would be so openly defense of their scummate in this situation, even if keeping Qvist alive was the "only way to win" since then we would know axxle was the other scum and that would completely ruin all the work.  Axxle has felt a lot like me this game: wrong at times but sure of his reads and pushing them in a very town way.  I would say that scum!axxle would neither be so bold or so stupid to defend Qvist tooth and nail.

[Voltgloss]

Question. Why would scum counterclaim after we just outlined reasons why it was in fact very good for scum if only the real cop claimed?

Because all of the reasons we discussed leading up to my claim had a baseline, reasonable, but incorrect assumption:  That the Cop had no meaningful investigation results.

This was, in fact, not correct.  Only three people knew that the Cop had a meaningful investigation:  myself, and the two scum.  The Cop having an investigation today that clears town dramatically changes things.  They feared that I, as Cop, had an incriminating investigation result in my back pocket.  That's why they felt they had to counterclaim.

[TheMunch]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok:

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

Yuma: Prefers Qvist.  No scumbuddy read.
Axxle: Thins its Volt / Asher
TheMunch: Has not answered.  Voted Qvist before I made him calm down.  Now wants to lynch Axxle?
Asher: Has not answered.  At all.

[TheMunch]

Ok:

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

Yuma: Prefers Qvist.  No scumbuddy read.
Axxle: Thins its Volt / Asher
TheMunch: Has not answered.  Voted Qvist before I made him calm down.  Now wants to lynch Axxle?
Asher: Has not answered.  At all.

nonono I dont.  I was just following the hypothetical line of reason Ashersky(?) laid down cause I dont know what to think anymore.  My opinion on VG/Qv is in the previous post.  You should read it.

[Voltgloss]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Scum wouldn't want to fakeclaim Cop today if they can avoid it.  What they were hoping was that the Cop had "only" a town investigative result (or, even better, tried to investigate Eevee and thus had no info at all), thus giving them a chance to kill the Doc tonight and the Cop tomorrow before the entire scumteam is outed.

I expect that if I had claimed Cop and, in the same breath, said I had "only" an investigation result on town, then they would NOT have counterclaimed and instead laid low.  The only reason they are fakecounterclaiming is because they felt they absolutely HAD to do so.

Side note:  there's nothing in Qvist's Day 3 posts before his fakecounterclaim to suggest he could be the Cop.  Remember is lukewarm response to the counterclaim idea.  A new Cop player who hasn't already claimed would not react that way. 

[Voltgloss]

^ "Remember is" should be "Remember his"

[Voltgloss]

Gonna have spotty access for rest of day but will respond to questions when I can/am available.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok:

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

Yuma: Prefers Qvist.  No scumbuddy read.
Axxle: Thins its Volt / Asher
TheMunch: Has not answered.  Voted Qvist before I made him calm down.  Now wants to lynch Axxle?
Asher: Has not answered.  At all.

nonono I dont.  I was just following the hypothetical line of reason Ashersky(?) laid down cause I dont know what to think anymore.  My opinion on VG/Qv is in the previous post.  You should read it.

I haven't seen anything from you that says one way or the other "I think the scum team is: X / Y" which is what I"m asking.

[TheMunch]

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Or when you shouldn't have.  Whats burned in my brain is the last theory discussion before you claimed said if cop were to claim solo, we have a 40% chance to win.

Scum wouldn't want to fakeclaim Cop today if they can avoid it.  What they were hoping was that the Cop had "only" a town investigative result (or, even better, tried to investigate Eevee and thus had no info at all), thus giving them a chance to kill the Doc tonight and the Cop tomorrow before the entire scumteam is outed.

Real cop might not want to claim either.  Qvist said he was going to be posting about some theory stuff and checking numbers.  Something a cop should do before claiming.

I expect that if I had claimed Cop and, in the same breath, said I had "only" an investigation result on town, then they would NOT have counterclaimed and instead laid low.  The only reason they are fakecounterclaiming is because they felt they absolutely HAD to do so.

Well I guess we'll never know.

Side note:  there's nothing in Qvist's Day 3 posts before his fakecounterclaim to suggest he could be the Cop.  Remember is lukewarm response to the counterclaim idea.  A new Cop player who hasn't already claimed would not react that way.

To be fair I have seen equal evidence that both of you were breadcrumbing the same claim...

[Captain_Frisk]

@themunch - its the final play of the game, you have to make a pick.. yOU have 10 seconds - who is your scumteam?

[TheMunch]

@themunch - its the final play of the game, you have to make a pick.. yOU have 10 seconds - who is your scumteam?

CF/TheMunch

[TheMunch]

@themunch - its the final play of the game, you have to make a pick.. yOU have 10 seconds - who is your scumteam?

No Seriously.

VG/Ash but I'm very uncomfortable about who VG's scumbuddy is.

[Voltgloss]

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Or when you shouldn't have.  Whats burned in my brain is the last theory discussion before you claimed said if cop were to claim solo, we have a 40% chance to win.

40% is wrong when the Cop has a result today.  I knew the odds were better.  So did scum.  No one else did.  I wanted to see how people reacted.  I'll redo the math to show what the real odds are with the Cop claiming today.

[Voltgloss]

Munch:  say I get lynched.  When I flip Town Cop, who is Qvist's scumbuddy?

[Voltgloss]

Here are the real odds of random-chance lynching scum today, with my claiming and confirming CF as town, assuming no scum counterclaim:

I. (2/5)  We lynch scum

II. (2/5)  We lynch VT

III. (1/5)  We try to lynch Doc, but he claims
{A} (2/4)  We then lynch scum (w/ Doc outed)
{B} (2/4)  We then lynch VT (w/ Doc outed)

Chance of lynching scum:
- Outcome I, (2/5); +
- Outcome IIIA, (1/5)*(2/4); = 50%

Not 40%.  50%.  And that's pure randomness.

Whereas if I did NOT claim, and did NOT reveal CF as confirmed town today, the chance of lynching scum today was still 40%.

That's why it made sense for me to claim, even if I didn't entice scum to reveal themselves by counterclaiming.

[Captain_Frisk]

Here's another way to get to .50 volt

a. Lynch Volt
b. Lynch Qvist

[TheMunch]

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Or when you shouldn't have.  Whats burned in my brain is the last theory discussion before you claimed said if cop were to claim solo, we have a 40% chance to win.

40% is wrong when the Cop has a result today.  I knew the odds were better.  So did scum.  No one else did.  I wanted to see how people reacted.  I'll redo the math to show what the real odds are with the Cop claiming today.

Contradiction: earlier when you claimed you said you claimed to release pressure from CF since I wasn't unvoting, it had nothing to do with odds.

[Voltgloss]

Here's another way to get to .50 volt

a. Lynch Volt
b. Lynch Qvist

You're absolutely right.  Which is further evidence why, if I were scum, fakeclaiming without needing to do so would have been stupid.

If I were scum, and the Cop kept quiet, there would be a 40% random chance of scum being lynched today.
Scum fakeclaiming without having to do so bumps that up to 50%.

If I were scum, why would I want to increase the town's random chance of lynching scum today?

[Voltgloss]

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Or when you shouldn't have.  Whats burned in my brain is the last theory discussion before you claimed said if cop were to claim solo, we have a 40% chance to win.

40% is wrong when the Cop has a result today.  I knew the odds were better.  So did scum.  No one else did.  I wanted to see how people reacted.  I'll redo the math to show what the real odds are with the Cop claiming today.

Contradiction: earlier when you claimed you said you claimed to release pressure from CF since I wasn't unvoting, it had nothing to do with odds.

What post are you referencing?

[TheMunch]

Because you are devious

[Voltgloss]

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Or when you shouldn't have.  Whats burned in my brain is the last theory discussion before you claimed said if cop were to claim solo, we have a 40% chance to win.

40% is wrong when the Cop has a result today.  I knew the odds were better.  So did scum.  No one else did.  I wanted to see how people reacted.  I'll redo the math to show what the real odds are with the Cop claiming today.

Contradiction: earlier when you claimed you said you claimed to release pressure from CF since I wasn't unvoting, it had nothing to do with odds.

I found the post you are referencing.  It doesn't talk about odds one way or the other.  And you're right, the odds weren't the compelling reason why I claimed.  I'm talking about odds now because you asked about it. 

With pressure on CF, and my knowing CF was town, the ACTUAL odds of town mislynching were a lot higher than random chance would dictate - unless I claimed.

[Voltgloss]

Because you are devious

Now I know how Robz feels when he gets mislynched as a power role Day 1.

[Qvist]

I'm back online for about 30 minutes. Quick reread of ~5 pages now.

[Qvist]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

[Captain_Frisk]

@themunch - its the final play of the game, you have to make a pick.. yOU have 10 seconds - who is your scumteam?

No Seriously.

VG/Ash but I'm very uncomfortable about who VG's scumbuddy is.

So what has changed your mind, given that you were ready to vote qvist last night?

[Qvist]

Remember Qvist's response to my massclaim proposal.

On top of all of that, notice how Qvist completely ignored weighing in on my massclaim proposal. 

Sorry, I didn't ignore it. I just don't know if this is a good idea. And I tried to evaluate that, but had a hard time. But I think you brought up a valid point, it might work, but is really risky.

Would you expect a Town Cop to give such a lukewarm no-response response?

This is part of WHY I wanted to have discussion of massclaim.  So that if scum fakeclaimed me, they would have already gone on record in a way that undermines their fakeclaim.

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

[Voltgloss]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok:

Without voting, I'd like each person to weigh in on QVist vs. Voltgloss.  You must also pick their scum buddy.

Yuma: Prefers Qvist.  No scumbuddy read.
Axxle: Thins its Volt / Asher
TheMunch: After prodding: Volt / Asher
Asher: Has not answered.  At all.

[Captain_Frisk]

QVist, I know that english isn't you're language, so you're at a disadvantage to Volt "The Situation" Gloss here, but I'd really appreciate it if you can try to respond to Volt's case, and explain why you feel that his claim is false, and why it took you 45 minutes to decide to come forward with your claim.

[Captain_Frisk]

QVist, I know that english isn't your language, so you're at a disadvantage to Volt "The Situation" Gloss here, but I'd really appreciate it if you can try to respond to Volt's case, and explain why you feel that his claim is false, and why it took you 45 minutes to decide to come forward with your claim.

/facepalm

[Qvist]

Before I get critized again for responding so slow: Phone call.

[Voltgloss]

Volt "The Situation" Gloss

+500

[Captain_Frisk]

Volt "The Situation" Gloss

+500

You are from Jersey - right?

[Captain_Frisk]

Volt / Qvist

Why do you think that scum allowed an investigation to go through?

[Qvist]

I'm continuing reading now.

[Qvist]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

Notice how Qvist ignored this question, signing off instead.  That is because it has no good answer.  Because I am town.

Man, I'm really pissed now. I nearly came too late today to work because I was so tired. If I would have known that it takes so much time to follow this, I wouldn't have signed up. Now back to topic.

[Voltgloss]

Volt "The Situation" Gloss

+500

You are from Jersey - right?

Correct.

[Voltgloss]

Volt / Qvist

Why do you think that scum allowed an investigation to go through?

I think they thought Eevee was the Cop, based on his apparent breadcrumb.  And I think they thought the Doctor caught that same "breadcrumb" as well.  So they expected the Doctor to protect Eevee.  So they shut off the Doctor and killed Eevee, hoping they were hitting the Cop.

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist?

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh - and QVist - if you're at work / busy - just say so.  We have time... and this is less important than your job / family / social life.

More important than Volt and his family though.

[Voltgloss]

More important than Volt and his family though.

Man, confirm a guy as town and he just feels ALL kinds of license to snark. 

[Qvist]

Notice how 100% rock-solid sure Axxle is that I am scum and Qvist is town.

Now notice how all the rest of you are unsure as to which of us (me or Qvist) is town and which is scum.

Your unsurety is how town SHOULD feel, and act, in this situation.  You don't know which of us is the liar, and you're trying to figure it out.

Why is Axxle so 100% rock-solid sure? 
There is only one explanation:  he knows which of us is town.  (Me.)  And he knows because he is scum.  (With Qvist.)

Remember:  from scum's perspective, if one of them gets lynched today, they lose the game.  With Follow-the-Cop, they are doomed.

So Axxle's only, ONLY, chance, is to convince you all that I am scum, get me lynched, and hope that you don't all lynch him on the final day after lynching Qvist tomorrow.

That's why he is trying so very hard.  It's his (and Qvist's) only hope.

Why are you pushing Axxle so hard? Did you investigate him too?
There is only one explanation:  you know which of us is town.  (Me. and probably Axxle)  And Axxle knows because he is probably town, so you must be scum. D'oh, I can argument the same way. Where are the facts? You can always see such points from two sides.

And your argumentation is wrong. If you're getting killed, you haven't lost the game. Let's say you're lucky, and your partner kills the doctor. Then there are 5 left, 3 VT, 1 scum and 1 cop. It looks bad yeah, but it is far from over as the cop only got one more read which might be VT.

But, tell me again, I didn't understand it. Why did you claim? CF only had 1 vote and you said he was probably going to be mislynched.
That's crazy. And you answered:

I said he was going to be mislynched.  That was the trend, the direction the day was going.

What trend? I didn't saw that. Exactly before your claim Axxle even changed votes, only 1 vote was on him. So, why did you claim?

And why did you try to start a bandwagon on yuma the night before if you didn't get a result until then? I really like to hear that too.

[TheMunch]

More important than Volt and his family though.

Man, confirm a guy as town and he just feels ALL kinds of license to snark. 

Remember the Yuma-gate earlier regarding making fun of your family?  I dont think you need to be IC to snark

[Voltgloss]

And your argumentation is wrong. If you're getting killed, you haven't lost the game. Let's say you're lucky, and your partner kills the doctor. Then there are 5 left, 3 VT, 1 scum and 1 cop. It looks bad yeah, but it is far from over as the cop only got one more read which might be VT.

Wrong.  You forget that I've already confirmed a VT today.  So tomorrow we would have:  1 cop, 1 scum, 2 confirmed VT, 1 unconfirmed VT.  We lynch either the scum or the unconfirmed VT.  If we lynch the unconfirmed VT, we just lynch scum on the last day. 

The only way this could fail is if the person I confirmed today (Frisk) happened to be the Doctor.  But he's not, because if he were, he'd have counterclaimed joth on Day 2.  Remember back when I said that part of the reason I investigated Frisk was that he couldn't be the Doctor?  This is why that was so important.

[Qvist]

I don't think Volt would have pushed your wagon so hard if he were scumbuddies with you, so if he flips scum you're cleared in my mind.  Therefore asher would have to be scum.

So your theory is that I, joth, and ash voted 1-2-3 in immediate and quick succession on yuma on Day 2, all three of us being scum?

With me having replaced in after Day 2 started, and thus having no "opportunity" to converse with my supposed "scumbuddies?"

Actually that sounds very reasonable, because nobody would expect that. You start the game with an acussation of yuma, and some early votes gives you town credit.

[TheMunch]

This is called WIFOM.  I dont like it.  I prefer Occam's Razor to WIFOM

[Voltgloss]

And why did you try to start a bandwagon on yuma the night before if you didn't get a result until then? I really like to hear that too.

Why did you try to start a bandwagon on Frisk on Day 2 if you didn't get a result until Day 3?

[Axxle]

Axxle - what would it take to convince you that qvist is scum?

If you can point me to something, anything, that is strongly attributed to scum and not new player I'd consider it.  Considering most of Volt's case seems to require me to be scumbuddies with him I can see it's obviously crap.

[Qvist]

Would you be willing to lynch Axxle first?

I would prefer to lynch Qvist, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that Axxle is scum.

Lynching Qvist is better because then I can then investigate Axxle and confirm my 95% read to 100% certainty.  Or, if it's the 5% possibility of him just playing really really really badly as town, then we figure that out without a mislynch.

I think Qvist-or-me should be resolved today, while the town has a mislynch to spare. 

So at this point - no.  The town should lynch Qvist, who is 100% guaranteed scum.  I don't see a reason to settle for less.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Lynching Voltgloss is better because then I can then investigate ashersky and confirm my 95% read to 100% certainty.  Or, if it's the 5% possibility of him just playing really really really badly as town, then we figure that out without a mislynch.

I think Voltgloss-or-me should be resolved today, while the town has a mislynch to spare. 

So at this point - no.  The town should lynch Voltgloss, who is 100% guaranteed scum.  I don't see a reason to settle for less.

----

This is boring, such arguments are pointless. This was just an example, but such arguments are worth nothing. I could always reverse your posts to show you that there is nothing behind your posts. Stop trying to manipulate the other ones. They have to reread Day 1+2 and then decide which of our claims seems more reasonable. I hope they make the right decision.

[TheMunch]

Axxle - what would it take to convince you that qvist is scum?

If you can point me to something, anything, that is strongly attributed to scum and not new player I'd consider it.  Considering most of Volt's case seems to require me to be scumbuddies with him I can see it's obviously crap.

The problem is I'm remembering XIII where Ashersky (who was the real cop) was willing to make whatever arguments were necessary to make sure that people believed he was the real cop over doduo.  This ultimately put him in a bad position where he looked scummy for proposing these bad arguments.  In general I can see bad arguments just being the frustrated attempts of a real cop using whatever means necessary to make sure town makes the right decision.  At the same time I could also see scum using whatever arguments they can to make a mislynch go through, and sometimes the arguments they have to resort to are bad because they are made up arguments.

[TheMunch]

+143

[Qvist]

Why do you think QVist chose me to "fake" investigate?

One or both of the following reasons:

1.  As a new scum player, trying to answer the question "if I were Cop, who would I have investigated," Qvist reasoned that the correct answer is "whoever I claimed most often to be scum - I'd want to try to confirm my biggest scumread."  When in fact the better use of a Cop's power is on someone who is a null read to the Cop.

2.  My suspicions as voiced during Day 3 had two significant changes from Day 2:  (1) I suspected Qvist more than anyone else, even Axxle; and (2) I was convinced you (Frisk) were town.  Qvist, as scum knowing that they let the Cop get away with an investigation last night, would reasonably assume I had investigated either him or you.  By claiming to have investigated you - my own most likely Town investigatory target - Qvist could sow confusion by making it appear I was "copying" his investigation result.

#1 is the simpler explanation and thus probably more likely.

I didn't know about such a rule to read null reads. And if I'm honest I cannot see the point why you should investigate null reads. It seemed more obvious to me to investigate someone and confirm my read.

[Qvist]

Do you think this counterclaim was planned?

I think they planned that, if Eevee wasn't in fact the Cop, and if a Cop claimed today with an investigation result ON either one of them, then the incriminated party would counterfakeclaim.  It's their only hope to win in the face of impending Follow-the-Cop.

When I claimed Cop without revealing my investigation results, and waited for everybody to counterclaim-or-not, I think Qvist reasoned "if he investigated me and I don't counterfakeclaim right now, we lose; his posts today suggest he could have investigated me; I better counterfakeclaim while I have the chance."

Notice also how Axxle posted absolutely no content after my claim (other than his "back to the drawing board" unvote).  He was waiting for Qvist's counterfakeclaim, immediately after which he (Axxle) pounced to back it up.

I think the claim is obviously planned, I mean the day were only a few hours old and Voltgloss tried immediately to convince everyone why claiming should be done. After TheMunch and Axxle didn't seem to like it, he got nervous and just claimed.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

[TheMunch]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

As someone who plays a lot of hypotheticals in my head and has made this mistake THIS GAME I dont find it to be that damning.

[Axxle]

Volt / Qvist

Why do you think that scum allowed an investigation to go through?

I think they thought Eevee was the Cop, based on his apparent breadcrumb.  And I think they thought the Doctor caught that same "breadcrumb" as well.  So they expected the Doctor to protect Eevee.  So they shut off the Doctor and killed Eevee, hoping they were hitting the Cop.

FWIW I think this was a bad plan.  Eevee's posts implied getting an investigation result which obviously didn't happen.

[Voltgloss]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

As someone who plays a lot of hypotheticals in my head and has made this mistake THIS GAME I dont find it to be that damning.

My post is 50% a joke for Frisk's benefit.

The other 50% is this point:  all qvist did in that post was copy my post and change names.  But apparently he went out of his way to change that word, "scum" to "town."  Why?

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

[Qvist]

Question. Why would scum counterclaim after we just outlined reasons why it was in fact very good for scum if only the real cop claimed?

Because all of the reasons we discussed leading up to my claim had a baseline, reasonable, but incorrect assumption:  That the Cop had no meaningful investigation results.

This was, in fact, not correct.  Only three people knew that the Cop had a meaningful investigation:  myself, and the two scum.  The Cop having an investigation today that clears town dramatically changes things.  They feared that I, as Cop, had an incriminating investigation result in my back pocket.  That's why they felt they had to counterclaim.

Exactly. Scum knew that the cop got a result. So this is the opportunity. Let's first convince everyone that claiming is pro-town, then claim, wait for a counterclaim, perfect.

[Qvist]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

Haha, cool. TheMunch noticed this too. You bring up arguments and arguments without saying anything which can't be reversed.

[TheMunch]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

Haha, cool. TheMunch noticed this too. You bring up arguments and arguments without saying anything which can't be reversed.

<3

[Captain_Frisk]

Question. Why would scum counterclaim after we just outlined reasons why it was in fact very good for scum if only the real cop claimed?

Because all of the reasons we discussed leading up to my claim had a baseline, reasonable, but incorrect assumption:  That the Cop had no meaningful investigation results.

This was, in fact, not correct.  Only three people knew that the Cop had a meaningful investigation:  myself, and the two scum.  The Cop having an investigation today that clears town dramatically changes things.  They feared that I, as Cop, had an incriminating investigation result in my back pocket.  That's why they felt they had to counterclaim.

Exactly. Scum knew that the cop got a result. So this is the opportunity. Let's first convince everyone that claiming is pro-town, then claim, wait for a counterclaim, perfect.

Qvist - why do you think scum let you have your investigation last night?

[Qvist]

Same goes for you though, VG.  If you are scum, you knew that the cop had an investigation today as well (in this case it would be you, your scumbuddy, and Qvist).  You fish for the counterclaim, use the fact that you want everyone to claim to deduce the cop is Qvist and track him while he posts.  Qvist, if he is the real cop, could have just as easily had an incriminating result which you were afraid of him having, so you fishing for him was entirely a plan to set him up to fail.

You keep giving reasons that are reasons why either of you can be cop...

It's not the same, because I made the claim when I didn't have to.

Scum wouldn't want to fakeclaim Cop today if they can avoid it.  What they were hoping was that the Cop had "only" a town investigative result (or, even better, tried to investigate Eevee and thus had no info at all), thus giving them a chance to kill the Doc tonight and the Cop tomorrow before the entire scumteam is outed.

I expect that if I had claimed Cop and, in the same breath, said I had "only" an investigation result on town, then they would NOT have counterclaimed and instead laid low.  The only reason they are fakecounterclaiming is because they felt they absolutely HAD to do so.

Side note:  there's nothing in Qvist's Day 3 posts before his fakecounterclaim to suggest he could be the Cop.  Remember is lukewarm response to the counterclaim idea.  A new Cop player who hasn't already claimed would not react that way.

Being the first one doesn't give you any credibility. Why not waiting until everyone agrees with the claim? This could have been way better for you. You couldn't await to execute your devised plan, huh?

[Qvist]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

Why? I wasn't sure. Period. It would be pretty bad for town if I agreed blindly with claiming and then realized later how bad it actually was.

[Voltgloss]

Being the first one doesn't give you any credibility. Why not waiting until everyone agrees with the claim? This could have been way better for you. You couldn't await to execute your devised plan, huh?

If I were scum, and if that were my plan, I would absolutely have waited for everyone to agree with massclaim - or not fakeclaimed at all if people didn't respond.

I didn't wait.  Because I'm not scum.  I'm town.  And my plan was not what you claim it was. 

My plan was to discuss massclaim as a possibility to gauge peoples' reactions.  Axxle's, in particular, was very telling.  And yours is telling in retrospect - because it belies your fakeclaim.

[Voltgloss]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

Why? I wasn't sure. Period. It would be pretty bad for town if I agreed blindly with claiming and then realized later how bad it actually was.

My point isn't that you should have "agreed blindly."  My point is that, if you were the Cop, as a new player your response should have been much more AGAINST massclaim.

Really, I was expecting the person most likely to fakeclaim me would be Axxle, because of how strongly against massclaim he was.  As someone pointed out, Axxle's reaction to massclaim read as either (1) cop not wanting to be outed or (2) scum scared of massclaim. 

[Qvist]

QVist, I know that english isn't you're language, so you're at a disadvantage to Volt "The Situation" Gloss here, but I'd really appreciate it if you can try to respond to Volt's case, and explain why you feel that his claim is false, and why it took you 45 minutes to decide to come forward with your claim.

First, I already explained that it weren't 45 minutes. I started to do the reread around 20 minutes before posting, reading around 15 minutes until the claim. And then wrote the counteclaim. Though, before finishing my work at home I checked how many new responds were made in this thread, saw that it were a lot, so I knew I had to read them before sleeping. Then I went to the bathroom and such. I don't know how this forum software works, but I think every click shows you as online in that specific thread for a certain period of time. I don't know how long that time is. Maybe someone can ask theory, if you don't believe me.

[TheMunch]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

Why? I wasn't sure. Period. It would be pretty bad for town if I agreed blindly with claiming and then realized later how bad it actually was.

My point isn't that you should have "agreed blindly."  My point is that, if you were the Cop, as a new player your response should have been much more AGAINST massclaim.

Really, I was expecting the person most likely to fakeclaim me would be Axxle, because of how strongly against massclaim he was.  As someone pointed out, Axxle's reaction to massclaim read as either (1) cop not wanting to be outed or (2) scum scared of massclaim.

Then what about my reaction to massclaim?

[Qvist]

QVist, I know that english isn't your language, so you're at a disadvantage to Volt "The Situation" Gloss here, but I'd really appreciate it if you can try to respond to Volt's case, and explain why you feel that his claim is false, and why it took you 45 minutes to decide to come forward with your claim.

/facepalm

+1

I think I try to respond to him, exactly now.

[TheMunch]

Is axxle as categorically in disagreement to claims as I am?

[Voltgloss]

Here's my perspective coming into Day 3:

I'm the Cop.  Against all expectations, I have an investigation result.  I know Frisk is town.

Do I (1) reveal my role and confirm Frisk as town today, or (2) lay low?

If I lay low, and scum nightkills me, I take my knowledge of Frisk's towniness to the grave.  That is bad.

What is the likelihood of scum targeting me? 

They didn't target me or Munch (the obvious targets) Night 2.  They targeted Eevee.  Why?  (reread)  Ah, they thought he was breadcrumbing Cop.

So they are trying to kill the Cop.  They'll try again tonight.  If they think Munch is Doctor (a reasonable conclusion whether correct or not), they won't kill him.  And I don't see any other breadcrumbs they might seize on to think someone else is the Cop.

So they will probably try to kill me tonight.  That means I need to claim at some point today.  But I don't know who the scum are. 

What sequence of events can I set up that could bait the scum into revealing themselves?

...and that is exactly what I did.

I'm playing the long game here for town.  I was well aware that I'd likely be fakecounterclaimed and we'd be in this one-or-the-other situation.  And I was well aware that there's a fair chance I'd lose that battle.  But if so, I wanted it to be under circumstances that the town is best equipped to nail BOTH of the remaining scums on the last two days.

And that's the situation. 

[Voltgloss]

My point isn't that you should have "agreed blindly."  My point is that, if you were the Cop, as a new player your response should have been much more AGAINST massclaim.

Really, I was expecting the person most likely to fakeclaim me would be Axxle, because of how strongly against massclaim he was.  As someone pointed out, Axxle's reaction to massclaim read as either (1) cop not wanting to be outed or (2) scum scared of massclaim.

Then what about my reaction to massclaim?

Frisk, do you want me to answer this?

[Axxle]

Is axxle as categorically in disagreement to claims as I am?

No, but in this situation I think it was a bad idea.

[Voltgloss]

Is axxle as categorically in disagreement to claims as I am?

He's led massclaims in several games.
In M-III, he claimed as Rolecop immediately upon getting an incriminating result.

[Qvist]

Volt / Qvist

Why do you think that scum allowed an investigation to go through?

I mean, they had to decide between let the Doctor through or the Cop, right? So the real question is: Why Cop and not Doctor?
WIFOM? Or to get a kill for sure? Actually, I don't understand why killing Eevee and switch the Doc? I think Eevee wasn't someone who was a likely target for the Doctor. Either switching cop and then kill Eevee or switching Doctor and kill someone obvtown at that time. I'm still trying to figure that out.

[TheMunch]

Is axxle as categorically in disagreement to claims as I am?

He's led massclaims in several games.
In M-III, he claimed as Rolecop immediately upon getting an incriminating result.

I just find it hard to believe that he is pushign this hard to keep qvist alive if they are scum buddies if this immediately outs them as scumbuddies.

PPE you dont have to answer my qustion Volt.

[Qvist]

Volt / Qvist

Why do you think that scum allowed an investigation to go through?

I think they thought Eevee was the Cop, based on his apparent breadcrumb.  And I think they thought the Doctor caught that same "breadcrumb" as well.  So they expected the Doctor to protect Eevee.  So they shut off the Doctor and killed Eevee, hoping they were hitting the Cop.

Which breadcrumb? To what are you referring to?

[Voltgloss]

I just find it hard to believe that he is pushign this hard to keep qvist alive if they are scum buddies if this immediately outs them as scumbuddies.

PPE you dont have to answer my qustion Volt.

Ask yourself this:  if Axxle is town, why is he so sure that Qvist is the Cop and I am the fake?

[Qvist]

And your argumentation is wrong. If you're getting killed, you haven't lost the game. Let's say you're lucky, and your partner kills the doctor. Then there are 5 left, 3 VT, 1 scum and 1 cop. It looks bad yeah, but it is far from over as the cop only got one more read which might be VT.

Wrong.  You forget that I've already confirmed a VT today.  So tomorrow we would have:  1 cop, 1 scum, 2 confirmed VT, 1 unconfirmed VT.  We lynch either the scum or the unconfirmed VT.  If we lynch the unconfirmed VT, we just lynch scum on the last day. 

The only way this could fail is if the person I confirmed today (Frisk) happened to be the Doctor.  But he's not, because if he were, he'd have counterclaimed joth on Day 2.  Remember back when I said that part of the reason I investigated Frisk was that he couldn't be the Doctor?  This is why that was so important.

Ok, that might actually be true. It seems that I haven't worked that out in detail as you apparently have. 

[TheMunch]

I just find it hard to believe that he is pushign this hard to keep qvist alive if they are scum buddies if this immediately outs them as scumbuddies.

PPE you dont have to answer my qustion Volt.

Ask yourself this:  if Axxle is town, why is he so sure that Qvist is the Cop and I am the fake?

I have been equally sure and equally wrong in the past?  Confirmation bias?  Take your pick.  But like I said if he is so sure because he is his scum buddy, this would literally lose them the game regardless of whether Qvist is lynched today.  Qvist might be new but Axxle isnt.

[Qvist]

And why did you try to start a bandwagon on yuma the night before if you didn't get a result until then? I really like to hear that too.

Why did you try to start a bandwagon on Frisk on Day 2 if you didn't get a result until Day 3?

When did I tried to start a bandwagon? Can you quote me? I just said that CF was the scummiest of all and brought up arguments for that.
You OTOH came into the game with an already well devised case.

[Voltgloss]

Munch:  I think I asked this before.  If I did and you responded and I missed it, my apologies.

Say you lynch me today.
When I flip Town Cop, who do you think is Qvist's scumpartner?

[Qvist]

Qvist - who do you think is volts partner?

I'm not totally sure. I'm pretty sure it's not yuma (because of the yuma bandwagon) and definitely not Axxle (I think this is obvious). You're cleared.
Who's left? TheMunch or ashersky. TheMunch made the quickhammer and I don't know what to think about this, but I think that he might actually be town. So probably ashersky.

I would prefer to lynch Voltgloss, because I know 100% sure he is scum.
I have 95% certainty that ashersky is town.

Frisk, what's the f:DS history on scum mixing up "town" and "scum" when talking about how people will flip?

Oh man, I did CTRL+F for Qvist and replaced it with Voltgloss, replaced  Axxle with ashersky and replaced scum with town and vice versa. I did a quick reread and noticed that it didn't make sense because I double reversed it. Then I manually changed town and scum and had one left over.
Don't distract from what I was trying to say.

[TheMunch]

Alive:
CF, Qvist, Volt, Axxle, Ash, Yuma, Munch, Right?

I think one of Yuma/Ash is more likely to be scum than Axxle if Qvist is scum, and my brain is telling me Yuma.  He is being the appropriate level of non-participant in a conversation thats blowing up that I could think he is Qvist's or Your Scumbuddy (I know I said Ash before but I'm doubting myself).  I mean thats how I acted during Hydras; After the claim went down it was easier to let shit explode and sit on the sidelines going "Doduo called us scum so Doduo is lying" but not push it so hard that town actually made the right choice.  I could see Yuma doing precisely this.

[Voltgloss]

When did I tried to start a bandwagon? Can you quote me?

@Qvist:  It doesn't strike you as the least bit odd that EVERYONE thinks CF is scummy?  If Everyone thinks CF is scummy that includes scum.  This could be seen as scum pushing a towny for a mislynch or fingering their scum buddy for some cred.  I would agree that CF looks fishy but I think I want to see a flip before I lynch him as the "everyone thinks CF is scummy" can be seen in more than one way.

Huh? If everyone would think that CF is scummy than we wouldn't be in that position. Eevee and Voltgloss has him at #5 and jotheonah at #6. What I meant was directed at you and ashersky. So I make it more direct as it seemed not understandable.
@TheMunch and ashersky? Why don't you vote for Captain_Frisk? But I don't expect that Captain_Frisk gets killed tonight because beside of us 3 there seem no-one willing to vote for him.

[Qvist]

Being the first one doesn't give you any credibility. Why not waiting until everyone agrees with the claim? This could have been way better for you. You couldn't await to execute your devised plan, huh?

If I were scum, and if that were my plan, I would absolutely have waited for everyone to agree with massclaim - or not fakeclaimed at all if people didn't respond.

I didn't wait.  Because I'm not scum.  I'm town.  And my plan was not what you claim it was. 

My plan was to discuss massclaim as a possibility to gauge peoples' reactions.  Axxle's, in particular, was very telling.  And yours is telling in retrospect - because it belies your fakeclaim.

And you're doing the same thing again. You assume things and try to deduce conclusions from it. But what if your assumptions are wrong?

If I were scum, and if that were my plan, I would absolutely have waited for everyone to agree with massclaim

But you didn't and this makes you scummy. Because as town you would have waited too. You failed in adapting to town. I can see no valid reason not to wait as town until all (or most) of us agree.

[Qvist]

I'm not actually sure what you mean with lukewarm no-response response, but I didn't post because I wasn't sure about the odds. You criticized me for that and then I clarified. Now you're critizing me for responding. !?

I'm pointing out that your response is not consistent with your (fake)claimed role.

Why? I wasn't sure. Period. It would be pretty bad for town if I agreed blindly with claiming and then realized later how bad it actually was.

My point isn't that you should have "agreed blindly."  My point is that, if you were the Cop, as a new player your response should have been much more AGAINST massclaim.

Really, I was expecting the person most likely to fakeclaim me would be Axxle, because of how strongly against massclaim he was.  As someone pointed out, Axxle's reaction to massclaim read as either (1) cop not wanting to be outed or (2) scum scared of massclaim.

Why? If I say something like "Please don't massclaim, honestly please don't." it's way too obvious that I'm cop and then I get NK'd and can't get any more info. And your math may actually be valid and ... again I repeat ... I wasn't sure if it actually might be a good idea. Why should I say that I'm against it when I'm actually not sure?

[Voltgloss]

If I were scum, and if that were my plan, I would absolutely have waited for everyone to agree with massclaim

But you didn't and this makes you scummy. Because as town you would have waited too. You failed in adapting to town. I can see no valid reason not to wait as town until all (or most) of us agree.

I've already explained in detail why I needed to claim today. 

[Voltgloss]

RL just blew up.  My wife was in a car accident.  Sounds like no one is hurt but I have to go.  I'll respond to collected questions/issues when I am back.

[Qvist]

Here's my perspective coming into Day 3:

I'm the Cop.  Against all expectations, I have an investigation result.  I know Frisk is town.

Do I (1) reveal my role and confirm Frisk as town today, or (2) lay low?

If I lay low, and scum nightkills me, I take my knowledge of Frisk's towniness to the grave.  That is bad.

What is the likelihood of scum targeting me? 

They didn't target me or Munch (the obvious targets) Night 2.  They targeted Eevee.  Why?  (reread)  Ah, they thought he was breadcrumbing Cop.

So they are trying to kill the Cop.  They'll try again tonight.  If they think Munch is Doctor (a reasonable conclusion whether correct or not), they won't kill him.  And I don't see any other breadcrumbs they might seize on to think someone else is the Cop.

So they will probably try to kill me tonight.  That means I need to claim at some point today.  But I don't know who the scum are. 

What sequence of events can I set up that could bait the scum into revealing themselves?

...and that is exactly what I did.

I'm playing the long game here for town.  I was well aware that I'd likely be fakecounterclaimed and we'd be in this one-or-the-other situation.  And I was well aware that there's a fair chance I'd lose that battle.  But if so, I wanted it to be under circumstances that the town is best equipped to nail BOTH of the remaining scums on the last two days.

And that's the situation.

The emphasis is on "some point today", not a few hours after day start. I don't know if I understood the role of Cop right, but "setting up a sequence of events" isn't something a Cop is doing, it's something scum is doing.

So, you just outed TheMunch as Doctor, great pro-town play! So you expect to get killed already laying breadcrumbs for your scumpartner.

[Insomniac]

FYI I will be VLA for most of today, I have asked the spectators to lock the thread should a lynch occur however.

[Voltgloss]

Last thing

So, you just outed TheMunch as Doctor, great pro-town play!

The possibility of Munch being Doctor was already discussed at the very beginning of the thread

So I'm alive... thats fun.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

Sigh....

First I was going to be shocked that you were actually still alive.  I figured you must be the doctor if you hammered without waiting for counter claim, and thus you must be town.

There are however 2 other options:

1. Mafia thought you must be a crazy townie, and then the real doctor will protect you.
2. You are mafia.

You voting for me points toward #1.

[Captain_Frisk]

FYI I will be VLA for most of today, I have asked the spectators to lock the thread should a lynch occur however.

There will be no lynch today if I can help it.

[Qvist]

When did I tried to start a bandwagon? Can you quote me?

@Qvist:  It doesn't strike you as the least bit odd that EVERYONE thinks CF is scummy?  If Everyone thinks CF is scummy that includes scum.  This could be seen as scum pushing a towny for a mislynch or fingering their scum buddy for some cred.  I would agree that CF looks fishy but I think I want to see a flip before I lynch him as the "everyone thinks CF is scummy" can be seen in more than one way.

Huh? If everyone would think that CF is scummy than we wouldn't be in that position. Eevee and Voltgloss has him at #5 and jotheonah at #6. What I meant was directed at you and ashersky. So I make it more direct as it seemed not understandable.
@TheMunch and ashersky? Why don't you vote for Captain_Frisk? But I don't expect that Captain_Frisk gets killed tonight because beside of us 3 there seem no-one willing to vote for him.

No, you are putting this out of context. If everyone would think that CF is scummy than we wouldn't be in that position. was a response to that EVERYONE thinks CF is scummy Maybe my English grammar is wrong here. You stated that everyone thinks CF is scummy and I pointed out that this isn't true because then CF would have been already dead. And TheMunch and ashersky had put him at #1 in their list and weren't voting for him. This wasn't the start of a bandwagon. I just wanted to hear their reasoning behind this.

[Captain_Frisk]

When did I tried to start a bandwagon? Can you quote me?

@Qvist:  It doesn't strike you as the least bit odd that EVERYONE thinks CF is scummy?  If Everyone thinks CF is scummy that includes scum.  This could be seen as scum pushing a towny for a mislynch or fingering their scum buddy for some cred.  I would agree that CF looks fishy but I think I want to see a flip before I lynch him as the "everyone thinks CF is scummy" can be seen in more than one way.

Huh? If everyone would think that CF is scummy than we wouldn't be in that position. Eevee and Voltgloss has him at #5 and jotheonah at #6. What I meant was directed at you and ashersky. So I make it more direct as it seemed not understandable.
@TheMunch and ashersky? Why don't you vote for Captain_Frisk? But I don't expect that Captain_Frisk gets killed tonight because beside of us 3 there seem no-one willing to vote for him.

Thats a day 2 quote buddy.

[Qvist]

RL just blew up.  My wife was in a car accident.  Sounds like no one is hurt but I have to go.  I'll respond to collected questions/issues when I am back.

Oh man, I'm sorry for you. I hope she is alright.

[Qvist]

Last thing

So, you just outed TheMunch as Doctor, great pro-town play!

The possibility of Munch being Doctor was already discussed at the very beginning of the thread

So I'm alive... thats fun.

Vote: Captain_Frisk

Sigh....

First I was going to be shocked that you were actually still alive.  I figured you must be the doctor if you hammered without waiting for counter claim, and thus you must be town.

There are however 2 other options:

1. Mafia thought you must be a crazy townie, and then the real doctor will protect you.
2. You are mafia.

You voting for me points toward #1.

I think I might have missed that.

[Qvist]

And hurray I catched up with reading. I took way longer than I thought. I'm not sure if I come back online today. And if I do, I check Pandemic and some other threads first.

[Axxle]

RL just blew up.  My wife was in a car accident.  Sounds like no one is hurt but I have to go.  I'll respond to collected questions/issues when I am back.

hope everyone involved is alright.

[Captain_Frisk]

And hurray I catched up with reading. I took way longer than I thought. I'm not sure if I come back online today. And if I do, I check Pandemic and some other threads first.

Why?

[Voltgloss]

Apparently everyone is physically OK, but my wife is very shaken.  My mother is going there to pick them up now (she's closer than my workplace).  Thanks.

Thats a day 2 quote buddy.

I know.  Qvist asked why I tried to "bandwagon" yuma on Day 2.  I asked Qvist why he tried to "bandwagon" you on Day 2.  He said he didn't.  So I posted the quote.

FYI, my RL emergency is no reason to stop discussing (nor is it for "sympathy points"), just wanted to make clear why I won't be around much for rest of day.

[Voltgloss]

One other q

I just find it hard to believe that he is pushign this hard to keep qvist alive if they are scum buddies if this immediately outs them as scumbuddies.

PPE you dont have to answer my qustion Volt.

Ask yourself this:  if Axxle is town, why is he so sure that Qvist is the Cop and I am the fake?

I have been equally sure and equally wrong in the past?  Confirmation bias?  Take your pick.  But like I said if he is so sure because he is his scum buddy, this would literally lose them the game regardless of whether Qvist is lynched today.  Qvist might be new but Axxle isnt.

[Voltgloss]

well that was a fail let me try that again

[Voltgloss]

Ask yourself this:  if Axxle is town, why is he so sure that Qvist is the Cop and I am the fake?

I have been equally sure and equally wrong in the past?  Confirmation bias?  Take your pick.  But like I said if he is so sure because he is his scum buddy, this would literally lose them the game regardless of whether Qvist is lynched today.  Qvist might be new but Axxle isnt.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Town!Axxle is a lot more careful and cautious than you are Munch.  No offense.

And I think scum!Axxle is trying to WIFOM you.  You said you prefer Ockham's Razor to WIFOM, and that's the right approach.  If I'm lynched, when I flip town, you will have one 100% confirmed scum (Qvist) and one other player (Axxle) who did everything in his power to prevent confirmed scum's lynch, at a time when if confirmed scum was lynched, scum would lose.  Apply Ockham's Razor.

[Voltgloss]

vote: quote tags

(not a serious vote)

My content above is after the failed quote tags.

[Captain_Frisk]

vote: quote tags

(not a serious vote)

My content above is after the failed quote tags.

Dude - go deal with your wife?

[Voltgloss]

vote: quote tags

(not a serious vote)

My content above is after the failed quote tags.

Dude - go deal with your wife?

I have to finish a filing due today before I can leave the office.  Yes, it sucks.

[Axxle]

Town!Axxle is a lot more careful and cautious than you are Munch.  No offense.

And I think scum!Axxle is trying to WIFOM you.  You said you prefer Ockham's Razor to WIFOM, and that's the right approach.  If I'm lynched, when I flip town, you will have one 100% confirmed scum (Qvist) and one other player (Axxle) who did everything in his power to prevent confirmed scum's lynch, at a time when if confirmed scum was lynched, scum would lose.  Apply Ockham's Razor.

I've been becoming increasingly confident in my reads, just see XIII where I called Ogre town pretty heavy handedly.

[Captain_Frisk]

@themunch - its the final play of the game, you have to make a pick.. yOU have 10 seconds - who is your scumteam?

No Seriously.

VG/Ash but I'm very uncomfortable about who VG's scumbuddy is.

So what has changed your mind, given that you were ready to vote qvist last night?

TheMunch - you still haven't answered this.

[Captain_Frisk]

And where is ashersky?

[Axxle]

Vote: Voltgloss

I haven't seen anything that makes me even close to changing my mind on this yet.

[Captain_Frisk]

Vote: Voltgloss

I haven't seen anything that makes me even close to changing my mind on this yet.

What is that vote accomplishing?

[Axxle]

What is no vote accomplishing?

[Captain_Frisk]

What is no vote accomplishing?

Further time to discuss?  Wouldn't you like to grill Asher some more? 

[Captain_Frisk]

What is no vote accomplishing?

Further time to discuss?  Wouldn't you like to grill Asher some more?

Lets say you're wrong.  You know that we'll all go crazy and lynch you tomorrow right?  Game over you've just lost the game - REGARDLESS OF YOUR ALIGNMENT

[Axxle]

What is no vote accomplishing?

Further time to discuss?  Wouldn't you like to grill Asher some more?

Lets say you're wrong.  You know that we'll all go crazy and lynch you tomorrow right?  Game over you've just lost the game - REGARDLESS OF YOUR ALIGNMENT

But if I'm right we win.

And this would happen regardless of when we lynch Voltgloss. 

[Axxle]

Unvote

Actually, I might consider allowing a lynch of QVist today as if I am wrong mislynching me wouldn't end the game.

[Captain_Frisk]

What is no vote accomplishing?

Further time to discuss?  Wouldn't you like to grill Asher some more?

Lets say you're wrong.  You know that we'll all go crazy and lynch you tomorrow right?  Game over you've just lost the game - REGARDLESS OF YOUR ALIGNMENT

But if I'm right we win.

And this would happen regardless of when we lynch Voltgloss.

Wait - how do we win?  Walk me through it.

[Axxle]

QVist investigates yuma, and we lynch him if scum or lynch asher if town.

[Captain_Frisk]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

[Axxle]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

Yes.

[Captain_Frisk]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

Yes.

That post took you 8 minutes to write?

[Axxle]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

Yes.

That post took you 8 minutes to write?

yes.  On my phone in a restaurant.

[Captain_Frisk]

Where is Asher?

[Captain_Frisk]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

Yes.

That post took you 8 minutes to write?

yes.  On my phone in a restaurant.

Details:

What restaurant?  What are you having?  How did you get there? 

[Axxle]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

Yes.

That post took you 8 minutes to write?

yes.  On my phone in a restaurant.

Details:

What restaurant?  What are you having?  How did you get there?

Lol

Fishtown (Not actual name but what coworkers call it)

Shrimp Burrito

Walked

[Captain_Frisk]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

Yes.

That post took you 8 minutes to write?

yes.  On my phone in a restaurant.

Details:

What restaurant?  What are you having?  How did you get there?

Lol

Fishtown (Not actual name but what coworkers call it)

Shrimp Burrito

Walked

Its just interesting, because you were pretty active from noon until 12:30... and all the sudden you take 8 minutes to write a single word "Yes." 

This wasn't a "you were viewing the topic @ 15:27, you were POSTING in the topic @ 15:27.

[Axxle]

I posted while walking, the delay on the "yes" thing was me being interrupted for taking my order.  And I did change the wording a bit, lol.

[Captain_Frisk]

What are your thoughts on an 8 minute yes Volt?  You've been viewing the thread too.

[Voltgloss]

What are your thoughts on an 8 minute yes Volt?  You've been viewing the thread too.

I can see 8 minutes being reasonable if he is writing something by phone, gets interrupted, goes back, and decides not to post something more content-ful that he was originally drafting (as it's a pain to write long things by phone) and just go with "yes."   

But that begs the question:  why couldn't he just put "yes" to begin with?  He already said he was "changing the wording a bit."  That has me curious.  Not a lot there to change.  What, did he originally write "no?"*

* this last bit is about 60% facetious

[TheMunch]

So then the whole thing gambles on themunch being town?

Yes.

Teehee

[Captain_Frisk]

Munch - i'm still waiting on a question from you.

[Captain_Frisk]

@themunch - its the final play of the game, you have to make a pick.. yOU have 10 seconds - who is your scumteam?

No Seriously.

VG/Ash but I'm very uncomfortable about who VG's scumbuddy is.

So what has changed your mind, given that you were ready to vote qvist last night?

TheMunch - you still haven't answered this.

Here's the question

[TheMunch]

Last night my gut told me Qvist.  I had had a town read on volt the entire game.  Volt then started going on and on in a way that scared me that it had made as much sense as it did.  It felt like Volts arguments were just trying too hard to paint qvist in a bad light.  But I think I'm back too my gut; It feels a lot like Hydras and I am liable to believe the exasparated case maker is actually the one telling the truth.  He has more riding on whether or not town actually believes him, I feel.  It was already discussed in another game theory wise (at least I think it wasn't this one) but theres def a different style of defense that comes from responding to false accusations and true ones.  It feels like Volt being called into question is responding more like someone responding to being falsely accused of something.

I might not have answered your question in a quote, Frisk, but I have definitely made my opinions know every step of the way.  I have nothing to fear by sharing my opinions as they form in this thread, except for being wrong, which apparently I am wrong more than I would like to be.  So yeah, I have answered your question.  A bunch.  I have expressed nothing but opinions regarding your question.

[ashersky]

Ok, just woke up on Sat. morning and found 8 pages to read through.  7 of those pages were Frisk asking where I was.  Now, I will try to answer the rest.

Frisk's other Q:  at this point, my best gut read says VG/Axxle.   If I am wrong about VG, then Qvist/Axxle.

Also, I want to put this out there: NO HASTY VOTES.

It was I who pointed out Axxle was either the cop or scared scum.  If VG is lying about him claim, I think he is also bussing his partner.  Before you all scream about how that's not good scum play, hear me out.

Assume V is scum.  This fakeclaim's goal is to out and lynch the real cop.  If it works, he's dead tomorrow, BUT Axxle is basically cleared because of all the Q/Axxle stuff today having come from scum.  If it doesn't work and we lynch him today, the bussing was classic scum distancing.  So I see bussing as a distinct possibility.

The first claimer is usually the liar.  Volt's arguments ALL sound super pre-planned, and are probably laid out in his QT. 

So that's where I am right now.  The most likely scenario is the one where V is lying.  The rest is conjecture based on that.

[ashersky]

Also, as mentioned, it is the weekend here, so family time.  I will not be here all the time but will checking, specifically for this thread.

[Captain_Frisk]

Quick everyone:

What are your thoughts on Asher's theory.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh - the munch - one final question.  Are you the cop?

[TheMunch]

Ok, just woke up on Sat. morning and found 8 pages to read through.  7 of those pages were Frisk asking where I was.  Now, I will try to answer the rest.

Frisk's other Q:  at this point, my best gut read says VG/Axxle.   If I am wrong about VG, then Qvist/Axxle.

Also, I want to put this out there: NO HASTY VOTES.

It was I who pointed out Axxle was either the cop or scared scum.  If VG is lying about him claim, I think he is also bussing his partner.  Before you all scream about how that's not good scum play, hear me out.

Assume V is scum.  This fakeclaim's goal is to out and lynch the real cop.  If it works, he's dead tomorrow, BUT Axxle is basically cleared because of all the Q/Axxle stuff today having come from scum.  If it doesn't work and we lynch him today, the bussing was classic scum distancing.  So I see bussing as a distinct possibility.

The first claimer is usually the liar.  Volt's arguments ALL sound super pre-planned, and are probably laid out in his QT. 

So that's where I am right now.  The most likely scenario is the one where V is lying.  The rest is conjecture based on that.

I like it.  I was thinking earlier today that I could see it justified that no matter what Axxle be investigated if we lynch correctly.

[Voltgloss]

Ash theory:  imaginative, clever, but wrong about me.

Ash's basis for suspecting me is my arguments sound preplanned.  And I've definitely been planning/thinking in advance re: what I anticipated could go down.  But town can plan as well as scum.  And that's what has happened here.

However, as I agree that Axxle is by far most likely Qvist's scumbuddy, it's not end of world if you all accept ash's theory.  If you lynch me, after i flip town, lynch Qvist and Axxle.  Best chance of town win.

[Axxle]

Quick everyone:

What are your thoughts on Asher's theory.

Sounds like he's solidly Volt's scumbuddy.

[ashersky]

Quick everyone:

What are your thoughts on Asher's theory.

Sounds like he's solidly Volt's scumbuddy.

Well, if Volt flips scum, we can afford to mislynch me tomorrow and still get you in Lylo for the win the next day.

[Qvist]

Ok, just woke up on Sat. morning and found 8 pages to read through.  7 of those pages were Frisk asking where I was.  Now, I will try to answer the rest.

Frisk's other Q:  at this point, my best gut read says VG/Axxle.   If I am wrong about VG, then Qvist/Axxle.

Also, I want to put this out there: NO HASTY VOTES.

It was I who pointed out Axxle was either the cop or scared scum.  If VG is lying about him claim, I think he is also bussing his partner.  Before you all scream about how that's not good scum play, hear me out.

Assume V is scum.  This fakeclaim's goal is to out and lynch the real cop.  If it works, he's dead tomorrow, BUT Axxle is basically cleared because of all the Q/Axxle stuff today having come from scum.  If it doesn't work and we lynch him today, the bussing was classic scum distancing.  So I see bussing as a distinct possibility.

The first claimer is usually the liar.  Volt's arguments ALL sound super pre-planned, and are probably laid out in his QT. 

So that's where I am right now.  The most likely scenario is the one where V is lying.  The rest is conjecture based on that.

I don't know. This is an interesting theory, but highly unlikely if you ask me. Voltgloss is way too aggressively against Axxle that I believe in a Voltgloss/Axxle scum pair.

[Captain_Frisk]

So that just leaves Yuma to weigh in.

[Voltgloss]

The first claimer is usually the liar. 

Where does this come from?  Hydra?  I have explained why Hydra isn't a proper comparator.  What are the other examples you're using to conclude "the first claimer is usually the liar?" 

This is a really worrisome meta frankly, because if accepted it will neuter all investigative roles.  Any time an investigative role gets a good result and claims, scum just counterclaims and "welp the first claimer is usually the liar" and boom, lynched investigator.

I'm not saying "you must believe me because I was first."  (Though that would be nice!)  What I'm saying is, "don't disbelieve me just because I was first."

[Captain_Frisk]

I can't think of exhaustive claim / counterclaim... but I also agree that the first claimer is usually the liar - but usually the first claimer is doing so under duress, and is taking a shot in the dark.

The best example was when asher busted my fake claim.  I gambled that there wasn't another town PR.... and I was wrong.

@QVist - is Axxle your scum buddy? 

[Qvist]

@QVist - is Axxle your scum buddy?

I'm not scum, CF, you know.

[Captain_Frisk]

@QVist - is Axxle your scum buddy?

I'm not scum, CF, you know.

Would you be willing to lynch Axxle if everyone else thought it was a good idea?

[Voltgloss]

I can't think of exhaustive claim / counterclaim... but I also agree that the first claimer is usually the liar - but usually the first claimer is doing so under duress, and is taking a shot in the dark.

The best example was when asher busted my fake claim.  I gambled that there wasn't another town PR.... and I was wrong.

Exactly.  As was the case where you fakeclaimed; you were under duress, and you did it to save your skin.

But here, I claimed with no duress of any kind.  Nor are we in Lylo (the Hydra situation).

The proper comparator is NOT cases where scum fakeclaimed to avoid a lynch.  The proper comparator is cases where an investigative role claimed in order to inform the town about his investigation results. 

[Qvist]

@QVist - is Axxle your scum buddy?

I'm not scum, CF, you know.

Would you be willing to lynch Axxle if everyone else thought it was a good idea?

Are you talking about today or in general? I would rather lynch Voltgloss today, obviously.
I can't see the point killing Axxle is a good idea.

[Captain_Frisk]

I can't think of exhaustive claim / counterclaim... but I also agree that the first claimer is usually the liar - but usually the first claimer is doing so under duress, and is taking a shot in the dark.

The best example was when asher busted my fake claim.  I gambled that there wasn't another town PR.... and I was wrong.

Exactly.  As was the case where you fakeclaimed; you were under duress, and you did it to save your skin.

But here, I claimed with no duress of any kind.  Nor are we in Lylo (the Hydra situation).

The proper comparator is NOT cases where scum fakeclaimed to avoid a lynch.  The proper comparator is cases where an investigative role claimed in order to inform the town about his investigation results.

How about M6?  I claimed seer early.... i wasn't counterclaimed by timchen because he didn't know any better, but he should have!

[Captain_Frisk]

I can't think of exhaustive claim / counterclaim... but I also agree that the first claimer is usually the liar - but usually the first claimer is doing so under duress, and is taking a shot in the dark.

The best example was when asher busted my fake claim.  I gambled that there wasn't another town PR.... and I was wrong.

Exactly.  As was the case where you fakeclaimed; you were under duress, and you did it to save your skin.

But here, I claimed with no duress of any kind.  Nor are we in Lylo (the Hydra situation).

The proper comparator is NOT cases where scum fakeclaimed to avoid a lynch.  The proper comparator is cases where an investigative role claimed in order to inform the town about his investigation results.

Apart from M1 - where the counterclaimer was the person who was already exposed and caught guilty - name 1 case where this is a valid comparison

[TheMunch]

I can't think of exhaustive claim / counterclaim... but I also agree that the first claimer is usually the liar - but usually the first claimer is doing so under duress, and is taking a shot in the dark.

The best example was when asher busted my fake claim.  I gambled that there wasn't another town PR.... and I was wrong.

Exactly.  As was the case where you fakeclaimed; you were under duress, and you did it to save your skin.

But here, I claimed with no duress of any kind.  Nor are we in Lylo (the Hydra situation).

The proper comparator is NOT cases where scum fakeclaimed to avoid a lynch.  The proper comparator is cases where an investigative role claimed in order to inform the town about his investigation results.

But you waited till after the counterclaim.  And your information was about Frisk, who only I was voting for?  I agree that in hindsight CF was in very little real danger.  I could have seen you claiming when Frisk was at L-1... not out of the blue.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right townies, there are a bunch of points that I've been weighing.  Full post to come later, but I'd like everyone to think about (And maybe write down your thoughts) on the following subjects.

1. Behavior change of Qvist between day 2 and day 3.
2. Why mafia would let the cop switch on.
3. Order of claimants (Volt 1st, Qvist 2nd)
4. Selection of Targets
5. Order of claimed targets (Volt 2nd, Qvist 1st)
6. Plausible newbie scum play
7. Plausible advanced scum play

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh - and
8. Real danger of my lynch (the reasons for Volt's claim)

[Voltgloss]

But you waited till after the counterclaim.  And your information was about Frisk, who only I was voting for?  I agree that in hindsight CF was in very little real danger.  I could have seen you claiming when Frisk was at L-1... not out of the blue.

Munch:  I think you are town.  I know Frisk is town.  That means that your vote, plus 2 scum votes, plus just ONE more town vote = lynched Frisk.

When it takes 4 to lynch, there are 2 scum, and 1 townie has already made a very clear and determined vote on another townie (your vote on Frisk), then the voted townie is, effectively, at L-1.  All it would take was one other townie to vote Frisk, and then scum can have their mislynch.

[Voltgloss]

Frisk, I figure you probably don't want Qvist and me answering your various topics, but may I propose one complementary pair of topics for town to consider:

6a. Plausible newbie power role play
7a. Plausible advanced power role play

[Captain_Frisk]

But you waited till after the counterclaim.  And your information was about Frisk, who only I was voting for?  I agree that in hindsight CF was in very little real danger.  I could have seen you claiming when Frisk was at L-1... not out of the blue.

Munch:  I think you are town.  I know Frisk is town.  That means that your vote, plus 2 scum votes, plus just ONE more town vote = lynched Frisk.

When it takes 4 to lynch, there are 2 scum, and 1 townie has already made a very clear and determined vote on another townie (your vote on Frisk), then the voted townie is, effectively, at L-1.  All it would take was one other townie to vote Frisk, and then scum can have their mislynch.

Scum quickhammer?

[Voltgloss]

But you waited till after the counterclaim.  And your information was about Frisk, who only I was voting for?  I agree that in hindsight CF was in very little real danger.  I could have seen you claiming when Frisk was at L-1... not out of the blue.

Munch:  I think you are town.  I know Frisk is town.  That means that your vote, plus 2 scum votes, plus just ONE more town vote = lynched Frisk.

When it takes 4 to lynch, there are 2 scum, and 1 townie has already made a very clear and determined vote on another townie (your vote on Frisk), then the voted townie is, effectively, at L-1.  All it would take was one other townie to vote Frisk, and then scum can have their mislynch.

Scum quickhammer?

Not necessarily "quick," but I can certainly see scum adding the last two votes.  When they know there's a cop out there who might reveal an investigatory result if they don't end the day prematurely.  And especially when one of the scums (Axxle) has already voted for you previously in the day, and thus is just "going back to" his original "read."

[Voltgloss]

Apart from M1 - where the counterclaimer was the person who was already exposed and caught guilty - name 1 case where this is a valid comparison

There are multiple examples of an investigator claiming, without any duress, and being exactly what they said they were.  Your own uber-Cop/Tracker turns in RMM-I and Mystery Mafia, for example.

If you're asking, "Where is there another case of an investigator claiming, not announcing the results of their investigation, and then someone counterclaiming" - no, I don't think there are any comparators in f:DS history, with either the claimant being town OR the claimant being scum.  It hasn't happened before.  O suggested it in Hydra (where it was manifestly NOT what happened in Hydra), and that suggestion resonated with me as the right way to play it here, to draw out the scum. 

[Captain_Frisk]

Apart from M1 - where the counterclaimer was the person who was already exposed and caught guilty - name 1 case where this is a valid comparison

There are multiple examples of an investigator claiming, without any duress, and being exactly what they said they were.  Your own uber-Cop/Tracker turns in RMM-I and Mystery Mafia, for example.

If you're asking, "Where is there another case of an investigator claiming, not announcing the results of their investigation, and then someone counterclaiming" - no, I don't think there are any comparators in f:DS history, with either the claimant being town OR the claimant being scum.  It hasn't happened before.  O suggested it in Hydra (where it was manifestly NOT what happened in Hydra), and that suggestion resonated with me as the right way to play it here, to draw out the scum.

I was never counter claimed

[Voltgloss]

Apart from M1 - where the counterclaimer was the person who was already exposed and caught guilty - name 1 case where this is a valid comparison

There are multiple examples of an investigator claiming, without any duress, and being exactly what they said they were.  Your own uber-Cop/Tracker turns in RMM-I and Mystery Mafia, for example.

If you're asking, "Where is there another case of an investigator claiming, not announcing the results of their investigation, and then someone counterclaiming" - no, I don't think there are any comparators in f:DS history, with either the claimant being town OR the claimant being scum.  It hasn't happened before.  O suggested it in Hydra (where it was manifestly NOT what happened in Hydra), and that suggestion resonated with me as the right way to play it here, to draw out the scum.

I was never counter claimed

I understand that.  That's why I went into my second paragraph, noting that the exact scenario we have here in this game hasn't come up in any other f:DS game to date.

[yuma]

Man! This game has just flown.

I have read every post via e-mail, some of that gets lost in the translation.... the quoting system it uses is pretty bad and it can be hard to tell who is saying what sometimes.

But for now. I feel confident in voting qvist. I won't now because apparently we aren't to that point quite yet.

This is based off.

1. my own reads prior to the claims
2. Volt's explanation regarding why he claimed when he did, resonates with me
3. Qvist's reaction

This is not based off at all on the timing of qvists posts. I have said before that I often look at the who's online page for my own curiosity, but I don't think it should be used to determine alignment, just because it isn't a reliable way to indicate what a person is actually doing online. (For example as I wrote this post, I did a handful of other things... checking e-mail, talking to wife, getting food).

If I had to pick who Qvist's scummate is I would lean toward Axxle, but I could see it being ashersky as well. I highly doubt an ashersky/volt pairing (due to the jot/ash/volt all being on my wagon) and have a hard time seeing volt/Axxle as well. I am town, Frisk is town and I think TheMunch is town. As a result I have to think qvist is scum and it is either axxle or ash as the partner.

When can I vote?

[TheMunch]

I would say at least wait for CF to speak his peace.  But seriously I cant emotionally take another day of this.  We need to lynch someone so my brain doesn't explode.

[Captain_Frisk]

So, amount the peanut gallery - we have 3 for volt, and 1 for qvist.

[Captain_Frisk]

Yuma for qvist, everyone else for volt?

[Captain_Frisk]

vote: axxle

I think volt can explain why

[yuma]

So, amount the peanut gallery - we have 3 for volt, and 1 for qvist.

who is who? or rather who are the 3? Qvist, axxle and ash? What do you have to say?

[yuma]

vote: axxle

I think volt can explain why

Wait, what?

[Axxle]

vote: axxle

I think volt can explain why

This makes zero sense.

[Voltgloss]

So, amount the peanut gallery - we have 3 for volt, and 1 for qvist.

who is who? or rather who are the 3? Qvist, axxle and ash? What do you have to say?

I think Frisk means that ash, Axxle, and Munch are the 3 who want to vote me.  And you are the 1 who wants to vote Qvist.

[TheMunch]

Yeah thats wrong.  I am currently of the wanting to vote Qvist.  I said this in my last post in response to CF's question.

[Voltgloss]

vote: axxle

I think volt can explain why

I trust Frisk has a plan, but it's not immediately obvious to me what he's thinking.
Have to go finish my court filing now, but once done I'll come back to this.

[Voltgloss]

Yeah thats wrong.  I am currently of the wanting to vote Qvist.  I said this in my last post in response to CF's question.

I think Frisk thought you were switching back to me when you responded approvingly to ash's theory. 

[Captain_Frisk]

Yeah thats wrong.  I am currently of the wanting to vote Qvist.  I said this in my last post in response to CF's question.

Really?  Make up your mind!

[TheMunch]

Yeah thats wrong.  I am currently of the wanting to vote Qvist.  I said this in my last post in response to CF's question.

Really?  Make up your mind!

I did.  In my last post.

[TheMunch]

Last night my gut told me Qvist.  I had had a town read on volt the entire game.  Volt then started going on and on in a way that scared me that it had made as much sense as it did.  It felt like Volts arguments were just trying too hard to paint qvist in a bad light.  But I think I'm back to my gut; It feels a lot like Hydras and I am liable to believe the exasparated case maker is actually the one telling the truth.  He has more riding on whether or not town actually believes him, I feel.  It was already discussed in another game theory wise (at least I think it wasn't this one) but theres def a different style of defense that comes from responding to false accusations and true ones.  It feels like Volt being called into question is responding more like someone responding to being falsely accused of something.

I might not have answered your question in a quote, Frisk, but I have definitely made my opinions know every step of the way.  I have nothing to fear by sharing my opinions as they form in this thread, except for being wrong, which apparently I am wrong more than I would like to be.  So yeah, I have answered your question.  A bunch.  I have expressed nothing but opinions regarding your question.

[yuma]

vote: axxle

I think volt can explain why

I trust Frisk has a plan, but it's not immediately obvious to me what he's thinking.
Have to go finish my court filing now, but once done I'll come back to this.

so frisk, what are you thinking? Or do you want to wait for volt to figure it out?

[Voltgloss]

so frisk, what are you thinking? Or do you want to wait for volt to figure it out?

Or do the "peanut gallery" suspicions being currently split 2-2 (instead of 3-1) change your thinking, Frisk?

[Captain_Frisk]

Nope!

[TheMunch]

Nope!

Should I vote Axxle?

[yuma]

Nope!

Should I vote Axxle?

someone should explain first.

[Voltgloss]

I have one idea as to what Frisk is doing, but am concerned that by describing it, I'd undermine it.

Frisk, do you want me to opine on what appears to be your plan?

[Axxle]

I think volt can explain why

[Captain_Frisk]

All right guys:  4 scenarios to think about.

1. Qvist is scum and Axxle is Scum
2. Qvist is scum and Axxle is Not Scum
3. Volt is scum and Axxle is Scum
4. Volt is scum and Axxle is not scum

If we lynch Axxle, we win if either Scenario 1 or 3 is true.  (It will no longer matter what order we lynch Volt or Qvist in)

So - we really need to worry about scenarios 2 and 4.

Let's assume for a second that Volt is scum:

Letting an investigation go last night was incredibly bold.  Volt claims to be shocked.  If Volt is scum, and he's pressing super hard on Qvist and Axxle.  If Axxle is town - then he's attempting to drive against not only 1, but 2 townies.  Neither of them are going to agree with them, so now volt needs to convince 2 of the remaining 3 town to join with him, or he's F'd - and he's brought it upon himself. 

Thus, I do not believe that it is possible Volt is scum and Axxle is town.

Now lets consider the pair of them.  Both experienced players may be willing to do something crazy (like let a cop investigation happen and then early claim cop)  I'm sure we can all see the narrative here.  We lynch Qvist (cop) - he flips town -> I guess it was Voltgloss.  OR We lynch Voltgloss.  Axxle proclaims "I was right!" and gets immense town cred.  I mean seriously.  Axxle has already called out the correct investigations for Qvist tonight. 

As I type this, I agree that it doesn't seem very likely.  I really want to believe Voltgloss.  However, I am 99.8% certain that scenario 4 is not possible.

If we lynch Axxle and he's town, then I am 100% certain that Qvist is scum, and we can lynch him tomorrow.

The best part of this plan, is that it leaves mafia in a bind.  They once again have to choose between giving an investigation to the cop or having doctor protection.  They also have to worry about who to kill. 

1. Kill one of (Asher / Munch / Yuma) - this narrows down the other suspects.
2. Block the cop and Try to kill me (the likely doctor target)
3. Block the doctor and kill me (letting the cop get an extra investigation)
4. Kill the cop - and remove any doubt of who the scum inside of {volt,qvist} is.

The reason why I favor this approach is that

1. It allows us to win straight out.
2. There is 0 chance of lynching the town cop
3. I find QVists behavior plausible as newbie town cop
3a. I find Qvists behavior as plausible as newbie scum (in which case I think his scum parter is also newish - because I think letting the cop investigate was BAD play)
4. I find Volt's behavior plausible as town cop (i do love roleclaims)
4a. I find Volts + Axxles + Joth's behavior as plausible as advanced scum play
5. I find Volt's claim to have investigated me as totally scummy
5a. I find QVists claim to have investigated me as plausible.
6. I find Axxles play to make no sense as town, but to be very plausible as scum for either partner.
7. If Axxle is town - in my opinion it confirms which one of the "cops" is lying.

[Captain_Frisk]

Compare this plan to lynching Volt / Qvist.  Even if we're right, we still have the problem of identifying the other person.  If we're wrong, scum have a huge advantage because we have no more PRs.

[Captain_Frisk]

Compare this plan to lynching Volt / Qvist.  Even if we're right, we still have the problem of identifying the other person.  If we're wrong, scum have a huge advantage because we have no more PRs.

The fact that we came down 2/2 is even more compelling that there is no clear cut winner.

[Captain_Frisk]

I personally believe the team is Volt + Axxle, but I really hope that its Qvist + Axxle, because I'll never be able to trust Voltgloss again.

[yuma]

looks good from sight, but I am terrible at this theorizing, I always seem to miss and overlook something huge...

[Axxle]

If we lynch Axxle and he's town, then I am 100% certain that Qvist is scum, and we can lynch him tomorrow.

Really?  So you're saying that I'm just wrong here?  Thanks.

[Captain_Frisk]

If we lynch Axxle and he's town, then I am 100% certain that Qvist is scum, and we can lynch him tomorrow.

Really?  So you're saying that I'm just wrong here?  Thanks.

No - I personally think you are right.  I just hope you aren't.

[Voltgloss]

Interesting.

Frisk, do you prefer I offer my thoughts now, or would you rather I wait for all of the peanut gallery to weigh in?

[Captain_Frisk]

Interesting.

Frisk, do you prefer I offer my thoughts now, or would you rather I wait for all of the peanut gallery to weigh in?

I'm going to say peanut gallery.  From your perspective this is either a terrible idea (because I've nailed you and your mate and you're F'd if town goes along with it) or its a slightly bad idea because you are the cop and you know 100% that qvist is scum... which is something that you have to understand that I can't exactly take your word on.

[Captain_Frisk]

Of course, I need to convince the munch, asher and yuma to all join me... and we know how much the munch likes to agree with me.

[Voltgloss]

Interesting.

Frisk, do you prefer I offer my thoughts now, or would you rather I wait for all of the peanut gallery to weigh in?

I'm going to say peanut gallery.  From your perspective this is either a terrible idea (because I've nailed you and your mate and you're F'd if town goes along with it) or its a slightly bad idea because you are the cop and you know 100% that qvist is scum... which is something that you have to understand that I can't exactly take your word on.

Yep, I do understand, which is why I figured you'd prefer I hold off.

[Captain_Frisk]

If we lynch Axxle and he's town, then I am 100% certain that Qvist is scum, and we can lynch him tomorrow.

Really?  So you're saying that I'm just wrong here?  Thanks.

And seriously.

@TownAxxle - do you really truly believe that ScumVolt would attempt to drive on 2 townies simultaneously?

[Captain_Frisk]

Interesting.

Frisk, do you prefer I offer my thoughts now, or would you rather I wait for all of the peanut gallery to weigh in?

I'm going to say peanut gallery.  From your perspective this is either a terrible idea (because I've nailed you and your mate and you're F'd if town goes along with it) or its a slightly bad idea because you are the cop and you know 100% that qvist is scum... which is something that you have to understand that I can't exactly take your word on.

Yep, I do understand, which is why I figured you'd prefer I hold off.

The good news is that if you're right (Qvist + Axxle) - we win!

[Captain_Frisk]

If you were town and someone just made a super compelling case that was not only going to result in your death, but the death of a town read and the loss of a game you would:

a. Come up with a compelling case to prevent losing the game
b. See what else is happening on the forum?

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh - Yuma and the munch - that is your queue to come in here and talk.

Apologies for the long text.

[Axxle]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

[Axxle]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

plan not case.

[TheMunch]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

This.

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Someone else will counter claim. 

We will lynch you, and if you're the doctor, then the scumteam is Qvist + the other dude.

[TheMunch]

I think the lynch axle plan is great if axle is scum. I think it feels terrible if axle is town.

[Axxle]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Doesn't matter.  Either you lynch me and I'm the doctor, or I'm not the doctor and mafia kills Munch.

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Someone else will counter claim. 

We will lynch you, and if you're the doctor, then the scumteam is Qvist + the other dude.

Other dude - no talking.

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Doesn't matter.  Either you lynch me and I'm the doctor, or I'm not the doctor and mafia kills Munch.

Thats fine - because then we still have 2 ICs - Volt and I.

[Axxle]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Someone else will counter claim. 

We will lynch you, and if you're the doctor, then the scumteam is Qvist + the other dude.

Have you even been paying attention to this game?

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Someone else will counter claim. 

We will lynch you, and if you're the doctor, then the scumteam is Qvist + the other dude.

Have you even been paying attention to this game?

Very much so.

[Captain_Frisk]

Yuma! where did you go!

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Doesn't matter.  Either you lynch me and I'm the doctor, or I'm not the doctor and mafia kills Munch.

If you think that its 100% clear that munch is the doctor - then nothing can stop that.

[Captain_Frisk]

It's stressful that you're going to lynch me and are lining up another town lynch.

There is a lot of things wrong with your case the first of which is that it guarantees the death of the doctor.

I suspect that this is true.

The reason why I expect this to be true is that you will claim doctor.

Doesn't matter.  Either you lynch me and I'm the doctor, or I'm not the doctor and mafia kills Munch.

If you think that its 100% clear that munch is the doctor - then nothing can stop that.

Probably should have let you hang yourself with this line of reasoning.  Did I scare you off?

[Captain_Frisk]

@Volt, I think I'm good with you coming in now... I'm solidly convinced that Axxle is scum and we're going to win.

[Captain_Frisk]

Man, I really wanted to wrap this up before my upcoming trip.

[Captain_Frisk]

@Axxle - who is ignorentmen?

I see you've played some games in the past based on his posts.

[ashersky]

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

[ashersky]

Oh, and I'm away from the computer again for a bit.

[yuma]

Yuma! where did you go!

eating diner with the wife! This isn't a blitz game!

So for this plan I need to get refreshed on what our game plan is if Axxle turns up town.

[TheMunch]

Yuma! where did you go!

eating diner with the wife! This isn't a blitz game!

So for this plan I need to get refreshed on what our game plan is if Axxle turns up town.

I would also like some axxle town plan details

[Voltgloss]

@Volt, I think I'm good with you coming in now... I'm solidly convinced that Axxle is scum and we're going to win.

Was about to post but I see yuma and Munch want to discuss further - I'll hold off more, unless you want me to go ahead and weigh in.

[Captain_Frisk]

Yuma! where did you go!

eating diner with the wife! This isn't a blitz game!

So for this plan I need to get refreshed on what our game plan is if Axxle turns up town.

I would also like some axxle town plan details

Axxle == town means that barring something crazy - I recommend a Qvist lynch tomorrow, and then you're @ lylo on day 5 with (most likely) munch / yuma / asher - as these are the only people with unknown alignments.

Doctor should "probably" protect me, but should probably employ a mixed strategy of protecting me 50% of the time, and one of the other 2 unknowns 1/6 of the time.

[yuma]

Yuma! where did you go!

eating diner with the wife! This isn't a blitz game!

So for this plan I need to get refreshed on what our game plan is if Axxle turns up town.

I would also like some axxle town plan details

Axxle == town means that barring something crazy - I recommend a Qvist lynch tomorrow, and then you're @ lylo on day 5 with (most likely) munch / yuma / asher - as these are the only people with unknown alignments.

Doctor should "probably" protect me, but should probably employ a mixed strategy of protecting me 50% of the time, and one of the other 2 unknowns 1/6 of the time.

So I guess this is where I get confused.... If axxle is town, how does that equal a Qvist lynch tomorrow? Because an axxle lynch as town and a qvist lynch as town equals town loses. Now I agree with you that Qvist is more likely scum than volt right now. But I don't know if I would want to be put into that spot

[TheMunch]

What if axle is town and Qvist is town? Humor me and restate the argument.

[yuma]

oh... I see your scum!volt wouldn't push two cases on both qvist and axxle clarifies that.

[yuma]

oh... I see your scum!volt wouldn't push two cases on both qvist and axxle clarifies that.

So this is basically what we are resting the whole plan off?

[Captain_Frisk]

What if axle is town and Qvist is town? Humor me and restate the argument.

That would mean that Voltgloss - as scum did the following things

1. Voluntarily enabled the cop
2. Voluntarily false claimed when it wasn't necessary
3. In addition to drawing out the real cop (town by definition) he ALSO attempted paint his 95% confident scum buddy as town.

Obviously - neither of those players (Axxle, Qvist) are going to go along with Volt's... so he's created 2 enemies.

Instead - he could have just kept his mouth shut and let me get lynched.

[Captain_Frisk]

oh... I see your scum!volt wouldn't push two cases on both qvist and axxle clarifies that.

So this is basically what we are resting the whole plan off?

Axxles reaction to this is pretty damn scummy.

[yuma]

Ok... I see where you are going here...

I don't like that ash voted w/o discussing much, but hey, what can you do.

Are we at a point where we can hear from volt? I would like to hear from him.

[Captain_Frisk]

oh... I see your scum!volt wouldn't push two cases on both qvist and axxle clarifies that.

So this is basically what we are resting the whole plan off?

Axxles reaction to this is pretty damn scummy.

Also, if they are both town, then the scum team has to be Volt / asher or Volt / themunch.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok... I see where you are going here...

I don't like that ash voted w/o discussing much, but hey, what can you do.

Are we at a point where we can hear from volt? I would like to hear from him.

To be fair, asher was in favor of a long time ago.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm good with hearing from volt, who truly should be in favor of this plan - but I am afraid won't be.

[Voltgloss]

I'm good with hearing from volt, who truly should be in favor of this plan - but I am afraid won't be.

OK, here I am.

And I'm in favor of this plan.

I've said all along I think Axxle is 95% certain to be scum.  With this gameplan in place covering that 5%, I'm good with this.  And Axxle's reaction to it is just as scummy as Frisk pointed out.

Frisk, you OK with my voting Axxle at this time?

[Captain_Frisk]

I am!  Lets do this thing.  Props if you and the munch are scum.

[Voltgloss]

Vote: Axxle

[Captain_Frisk]

He's at L-2 right?  Me and Asher?

[Voltgloss]

L-1 now, with me on board.

[TheMunch]

Can I hammer?

[yuma]

no i want to hammer!

[Captain_Frisk]

Wait for the claim the munch.  Anyone hammering will be treated as scum.

[yuma]

Wait for the claim the munch.  Anyone hammering will be treated as scum.

smart call there

[TheMunch]

Yuma I dibs'd!

[yuma]

Yuma I dibs'd!

fine, you win, this time....

[Captain_Frisk]

Axxle - we're waiting for you!

[Captain_Frisk]

And he's not online.

[TheMunch]

Laaaaame

[Voltgloss]

Slowplaying us!*


*j/k

[ashersky]

On my wife's mobile while at an appt. 

Frisk is correct that this was my thinking for awhile and it does give town the best chance to win.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm angry because I'm waiting for something to come online to do some work, and now all the threads are dead.

[ashersky]

Q for CF while we have time.  Do you think the faker was more or less likely to agree to this plan?

[Axxle]

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

[ashersky]

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

[TheMunch]

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

You're at L-1

[TheMunch]

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

I'll give him the chance to reread.

[Axxle]

oh... I see your scum!volt wouldn't push two cases on both qvist and axxle clarifies that.

So this is basically what we are resting the whole plan off?

Axxles reaction to this is pretty damn scummy.

Because its a losing plan.  Stop tunnelling, theres a reason why you were a huge scumread.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

I'll give him the chance to reread.

So generous the munch.

[TheMunch]

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

I'll give him the chance to reread.

So generous the munch.

What can I say? I'm a nice guy!

[Axxle]

VT.  ThMunch is doctor which is why I was sure of my plan posited earlier.

[Captain_Frisk]

VT.  ThMunch is doctor which is why I was sure of my plan posited earlier.

Why would you out him?

[TheMunch]

That makes 4 VTs

[Axxle]

VT.  ThMunch is doctor which is why I was sure of my plan posited earlier.

Why would you out him?

what the fuck.
i had to claim.
you arent doctor
Yoma and ash already claimed vt.
you are not following this game.  Unvote and reread.

[Captain_Frisk]

VT.  ThMunch is doctor which is why I was sure of my plan posited earlier.

Why would you out him?

Anyway - I'm ok with hammer

[Voltgloss]

Munch, will you do the honors?

[TheMunch]

VT.  ThMunch is doctor which is why I was sure of my plan posited earlier.

Why would you out him?

Anyway - I'm ok with hammer

I hope you're right! Vote: Axxle

[ehunt]

THREAD LOCKED

[Captain_Frisk]

Do we have a backup mod for a flip?

[Captain_Frisk]

THREAD LOCKED

[ehunt]

THREAD LOCKED

Sorry, I don't know the flip and I don't know when Insom is back.

[Insomniac]

Voltgloss decided it was his time to shine, I am the cop he claimed! After a moment Qvist looked up and said no you aren't I am and Frisk didn't do anything! Voltgloss said I can confirm Captain_Frisk is indeed innocent. The town bickered who was the real cop surely Insomniac had only invited one. Later the town decided that it was best to not kill either of the cop claimants. They instead took Axxle out to the pool and held his head under the water until eventually he became lifeless. Removing Axxle's head from the water they searched his person but were unable to find a gun or any switches. Seemed Axxle was a Vanilla Townie

Extended Night Phase Until December 3rd 8:30am PST

[Insomniac]

The sun strikes your eyes like a kick in the nuts. This isn't the day you wanted or the day you needed. You felt sick. If you didn't find scum the hired help was threatening to kill the whole lot of you themselves. There was no breakfast provided. A rough day indeed. To make things worse upon checking the rooms for known living members you found one dead. TheMunch the town doctor has been killed the stethoscope and wierd wiring all down his back alerted you to as much.

Day 4 start thread unlocked. (Yes it's early. My car broke down and I have limited access time while getting it fixed)

[Qvist]

I wasn't online as you all lynched Axxle. Nicely played, Voltgloss.
Now we're 2 townies more down. This time your tunneling worked out.
This night we all have to lynch the right one or we lose, guys.

And there's no reason not to Vote: Voltgloss

[Voltgloss]

Not too surprisingly, I did not get any investigation results today.  So last scum is between ash and yuma.  I assume scum will kill me tonight after we lynch Qvist, so Frisk, I wish you the best of luck figuring things out on the final day. 

Vote: Qvist

At this point, without benefit of a full reread, if a gun was held to my head and I had to pick the last scum I'd say ash.  It's a choice between (1) would joth/ash/Qvist scumteam pile two votes so quickly on the yuma case on Day 2; vs. (2) would joth/yuma/Qvist scumteam let yuma's wagon sit at L-1 for so long on Day 2.  While I thought (1) was fairly unlikely throughout the game, I nevertheless (1) is more likely than (2).  Plus there is the fact that ash was the first proponent of lynching Axxle before Frisk laid out the plan.

I'm still flabbergasted that Axxle was the 5%. 

[Voltgloss]

"I nevertheless (1)" should read "I nevertheless think (1)"

[Qvist]

Yeah, I agree with you here. It's either yuma or ashersky and as yesterday ashersky would still be my No #1 pick.

[yuma]

Well for me the one thing I do know is that ash is scum. With 4 vts dead and frisk a confirmed vt and myself a vt that is a total of six.

That means ash is lying. I am not 100% sure about volt and qvist obviously. But I an absolutely sure about ash. And because of that I can go back and do some analysis from that perspective but won't be able to do so until after work and rotations.

[Qvist]

yuma has brought up an interesting point. From CFs perspective there are 2 50/50 choices.
One between me and Voltgloss and another one between yuma and ashersky. One of each pair is willing to vote for the other one.
So, CFs vote is really important but also dangerous, because if he votes for town, scum will probably immediately quickhammer, right?
But the same goes for any of the other ones. If anyone votes for someone other than his "pair partner", scum has the opportunity to quickhammer if the choice wasn't correct. That means that I keep my vote on Voltgloss, although it might actually be possible to lynch either yuma or ashersky today.

[Voltgloss]

Unfortunately, looks like Frisk isn't around much if at all this week.  He posted this in the Buffy game:

I posted this in Vla - but I am traveling this week. Nearly off the grid until next Sunday. With a 12/20 deadline this seems ok - but f mod wants to replace me - so be it.

Insom, what's our lynch deadline? 

[Insomniac]

Unfortunately, looks like Frisk isn't around much if at all this week.  He posted this in the Buffy game:

I posted this in Vla - but I am traveling this week. Nearly off the grid until next Sunday. With a 12/20 deadline this seems ok - but f mod wants to replace me - so be it.

Insom, what's our lynch deadline?

2 weeks as per normal

[Voltgloss]

2 weeks as per normal

So Monday, Dec. 17th, at 10:00 a.m. EST?  Okay, thanks.

[Qvist]

After trying to get an insight about yuma vs. ashersky from yesterday's behaviour, I think I have an idea what might going on. Voltgloss tried the bandwagon on day 2 to kill yuma what ended in yuma claiming VT after nobody wanted to do the hammer. He realized that it won't work and was actually the first to unvote what I just looked up.

Yesterday he tried to start a bandwagon on me what ended in us both claiming cop. But he always accused both Axxle and me and then the bandwagon on Axxle started. This was like this.

@Volt, I think I'm good with you coming in now... I'm solidly convinced that Axxle is scum and we're going to win.

This was the sign for ashersky who was really quiet until then.

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

Voltgloss was the next to vote and then:

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

I'm pretty confident with a Voltgloss / ashersky scum pair.

[ashersky]

Well for me the one thing I do know is that ash is scum. With 4 vts dead and frisk a confirmed vt and myself a vt that is a total of six.

That means ash is lying. I am not 100% sure about volt and qvist obviously. But I an absolutely sure about ash. And because of that I can go back and do some analysis from that perspective but won't be able to do so until after work and rotations.

False.  This is scum!yuma coming in quickly to try to establish himself as the valid VT.  He is 100% scum, because I know I am VT.

Between the two "cops", I was more wary of VG yesterday, and with Axxle's flip I feel even more suspicious.  Volt's "huh, can't believe he was the 5%" thing seems so insincere.

Also, no offense Qvist, but I don't see anyone in this game sophisticated enough to pull off this kind of gambit, other than Frisk, Voltgloss, and Yuma.  Frisk is cleared by the real cop, so that leaves the two alive and both playing suspiciously. 

Occam's Razor here: who's the most likely mastermind, newbie!scum Qvist or expert!mafia player Volt?

I am leaning toward Volt, with a side of Yuma for support.

[Voltgloss]

Not surprised at all to see ash immediately reneging on Frisk's plan to lynch Qvist if Axxle flipped town.  And also not surprised to see ash conveniently forget that he ALSO pushed hard for Axxle's lynch yesterday.   

In any case, given that 2 of us are town and 2 of us are scum, we're not going to get anywhere until Frisk arrives.  Given his V/LAness that's going to be a while. 

[ashersky]

Yuma! where did you go!

eating diner with the wife! This isn't a blitz game!

So for this plan I need to get refreshed on what our game plan is if Axxle turns up town.

I would also like some axxle town plan details

Axxle == town means that barring something crazy - I recommend a Qvist lynch tomorrow, and then you're @ lylo on day 5 with (most likely) munch / yuma / asher - as these are the only people with unknown alignments.

Doctor should "probably" protect me, but should probably employ a mixed strategy of protecting me 50% of the time, and one of the other 2 unknowns 1/6 of the time.

Here is what I think Volt is calling Frisk's "plan."  He made a recommendation, which I am sure he will comment on today.  But blindly lynching Qvist is what scum!Volt would want, right?

I'll not Yuma didn't agree with this, either.  Check the post immediately after.  I agreed to lynching Axxle first, then the fake cop.  Right now, that sounds like you.  I just want to hear more than whoopsie and "Qvist is the liar" to try and convince me.  You usually articulate things well.  Why can't you articulate this?  (I mean in today's context, post you pushing hard a town lynch).

[Voltgloss]

I agreed to lynching Axxle first, then the fake cop. 

Quote the post where you did this.

[ashersky]

I agreed to lynching Axxle first, then the fake cop. 

Quote the post where you did this.

Quote the post where I agreed to "frisk's plan."

Instead of answering my question directed to you, you ask for a quote?

[Voltgloss]

Quote the post where I agreed to "frisk's plan."

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

[ashersky]

Quote the post where I agreed to "frisk's plan."

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

Frisk's plan to lynch Axxle, then the cop.  I've already stated I don't think Frisk thought we'd lynch Qvist automatically today, but that we would lynch the likely fake cop.  We should wait for Frisk to clarify.

And still, you refuse to respond to my question.  I believe it's because you can't, and that's because you must be lying.

[Voltgloss]

Quote the post where I agreed to "frisk's plan."

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

Frisk's plan to lynch Axxle, then the cop.  I've already stated I don't think Frisk thought we'd lynch Qvist automatically today, but that we would lynch the likely fake cop.  We should wait for Frisk to clarify.

We don't have to.  Below is Frisk's plan in its entirety.  Note the bolded section.

All right guys:  4 scenarios to think about.

1. Qvist is scum and Axxle is Scum
2. Qvist is scum and Axxle is Not Scum
3. Volt is scum and Axxle is Scum
4. Volt is scum and Axxle is not scum

If we lynch Axxle, we win if either Scenario 1 or 3 is true.  (It will no longer matter what order we lynch Volt or Qvist in)

So - we really need to worry about scenarios 2 and 4.

Let's assume for a second that Volt is scum:

Letting an investigation go last night was incredibly bold.  Volt claims to be shocked.  If Volt is scum, and he's pressing super hard on Qvist and Axxle.  If Axxle is town - then he's attempting to drive against not only 1, but 2 townies.  Neither of them are going to agree with them, so now volt needs to convince 2 of the remaining 3 town to join with him, or he's F'd - and he's brought it upon himself. 

Thus, I do not believe that it is possible Volt is scum and Axxle is town.

Now lets consider the pair of them.  Both experienced players may be willing to do something crazy (like let a cop investigation happen and then early claim cop)  I'm sure we can all see the narrative here.  We lynch Qvist (cop) - he flips town -> I guess it was Voltgloss.  OR We lynch Voltgloss.  Axxle proclaims "I was right!" and gets immense town cred.  I mean seriously.  Axxle has already called out the correct investigations for Qvist tonight. 

As I type this, I agree that it doesn't seem very likely.  I really want to believe Voltgloss.  However, I am 99.8% certain that scenario 4 is not possible.

If we lynch Axxle and he's town, then I am 100% certain that Qvist is scum, and we can lynch him tomorrow.

The best part of this plan, is that it leaves mafia in a bind.  They once again have to choose between giving an investigation to the cop or having doctor protection.  They also have to worry about who to kill. 

1. Kill one of (Asher / Munch / Yuma) - this narrows down the other suspects.
2. Block the cop and Try to kill me (the likely doctor target)
3. Block the doctor and kill me (letting the cop get an extra investigation)
4. Kill the cop - and remove any doubt of who the scum inside of {volt,qvist} is.

The reason why I favor this approach is that

1. It allows us to win straight out.
2. There is 0 chance of lynching the town cop
3. I find QVists behavior plausible as newbie town cop
3a. I find Qvists behavior as plausible as newbie scum (in which case I think his scum parter is also newish - because I think letting the cop investigate was BAD play)
4. I find Volt's behavior plausible as town cop (i do love roleclaims)
4a. I find Volts + Axxles + Joth's behavior as plausible as advanced scum play
5. I find Volt's claim to have investigated me as totally scummy
5a. I find QVists claim to have investigated me as plausible.
6. I find Axxles play to make no sense as town, but to be very plausible as scum for either partner.
7. If Axxle is town - in my opinion it confirms which one of the "cops" is lying.

[ashersky]

I will continue to ask why you won't respond to my question and why you keep diverting the conversation.  It's like you are trying to get met to put Qvist at L-1 early for a quick hammer.  What's the rush? 

Scum scum scum, man.  That's what all your behavior is adding up to.  Start trying to be pro-town, actually respond to questions, state your case.  That is how you'll convince me.  The only people I would NOT lynch today are myself and Frisk.  Two out of the other three are scum, so I have a 66.6 percent chance of lynching correctly.  I think it is in my best interest, as town, to weigh arguments, thoughts, and ideas before brashly voting.

[Voltgloss]

Translation:

oh god my argument that frisk's plan wasn't "lynch yuma if axxle flips town" is completely refuted by the evidence.  and my argument that i wasn't agreeing to frisk's plan is completely refuted by the evidence also.  maybe if i ignore the evidence, don't respond, and attack volt instead, then no one will listen to volt or the evidence

Your "responses" have convinced me you are Qvist's scumpartner.  We are done talking, man.

I await Frisk's evaluation.  If Frisk has questions for me, I'll respond.  As I think yuma is town, I'll also respond to his (yuma's) questions.  There is no reason for me to respond to your - or Qvist's - "questions" as all you are trying to accomplish therewith is to push yuma or Frisk to vote for my lynch. 

[ashersky]

Even ruder translation:

Oh my god I can't say anything more because I might give myself away anymore oh please someone please talk so I don't have to keep not responding save me

Also, you are completely lying and putting actual lies in my mouth.  When did I claim Frisk's plan was to lynch Yuma?  I said fake cop.

Your haughty, holier-than-thou dismissal and refusal to participate are clear signals you are caught.

Way to be, man.  Lets just shut down discourse, respect, and gamesmanship.

[Voltgloss]

Also, you are completely lying and putting actual lies in my mouth.  When did I claim Frisk's plan was to lynch Yuma?  I said fake cop.

Quote, right now, where I said you "claim[ed] Frisk's plan was to lynch Yuma."

[ashersky]

Translation:

oh god my argument that frisk's plan wasn't "lynch yuma if axxle flips town" is completely refuted by the evidence.  and my argument that i wasn't agreeing to frisk's plan is completely refuted by the evidence also.  maybe if i ignore the evidence, don't respond, and attack volt instead, then no one will listen to volt or the evidence

Your "responses" have convinced me you are Qvist's scumpartner.  We are done talking, man.

I await Frisk's evaluation.  If Frisk has questions for me, I'll respond.  As I think yuma is town, I'll also respond to his (yuma's) questions.  There is no reason for me to respond to your - or Qvist's - "questions" as all you are trying to accomplish therewith is to push yuma or Frisk to vote for my lynch.

There, in your fake translation.

[Voltgloss]

Well CRUD I mistyped, argh!

[Voltgloss]

I clearly meant Qvist.  Man.

[Voltgloss]

The argument stands 100%, just with Qvist's name substituted in for yuma's.  But if Frisk or yuma reject my argument now because I mistyped yuma's name for Qvist's name, I'm going to be really pissed at myself.

[ashersky]

Well CRUD I mistyped, argh!

Mistyped?  Yuma is 4 letters, Qvist is five.  They share exactly zero letters in common.  The first letter are at different locations on the keyboard.  Mistyped is not valid.  Messed up your lie?  Yes, that's a valid excuse.

[Voltgloss]

Man, I was thinking one name and typed another.  Tell me you've never done that in your life.

Or, y'know, seize on it and parade it around as "evidence" that I'm "scum," as good scum should do.

[Voltgloss]

Ugh, this is ridiculous, terrible, and embarrassing.  Inb4 comparisons to frisk's "0% chance of flipping town."  Even worse because (1) the supposed "slip" doesn't even make any sense as a sentence, and (2) I'm freakin' town!

Frisk, yuma, if one of you wrongly decide that I'm scum because of this "slip," well, I will blame the town's loss solely on myself.  Blargh.

[yuma]

Borrowing a friend's phone to write this after seeing this conversation in my email so I won't be able to do a quick response. First during today I have given some thought to this that

a. ash is confirmed scum to me due to not enough vts...
b. that ash and jot (both confirmed scum to me were on my wagon) along with volt whose alignment I do not know.
c. for volt to be scum that would require all three scum to have been on my wagon at the start w/o any preplanning as volt joined in mid day 2.
d. And that for volt to be scum he would have had to express scum suspicion and cases onto both axxle and qvist (frisk already brought up this point)
e. as such I think it highly unlikely at this juncture for volt to be scum
f. this corresponds to my own personal scum reads before the cop claims came out.
g. at this point I am willing to vote for qvist but would willingly change my vote to ash if qvist did as well. In fact I prefer an ash lynch and will now vote himvote: ashersky

volt I do not believe your mistake was a slip. Instead I believe that ash's behavior is evidence if caught, frustrated and despairing town.  I'll see you all tonight.

[Qvist]

I hope we're all right, yuma. Vote: ashersky

[Voltgloss]

Much as I appreciate scum!Qvist voting for the person who I think is most likely his partner, I am NOT about to drop a hammer while Frisk is on V/LA.

[Qvist]

Much as I appreciate scum!Qvist voting for the person who I think is most likely his partner, I am NOT about to drop a hammer while Frisk is on V/LA.

Yeah, I forgot that CF is V/LA. So we just have to wait.
But this reads still like an excuse of someone who is afraid to do the hammer on his partner.

[Voltgloss]

Of course you'd say that, scum!Qvist.

I have to keep in mind that the only person who I know with 100% certainty to be scum, is Qvist.  I think ash is scum, and I feel very confident about that; but I - and Frisk - and "ash" (if he is town) - felt very confident about Axxle yesterday as well, and we were wrong. 

There is a chance that Qvist just tried to tempt me into hammering ash because his scummate is actually yuma, and mine and ash's fightin' reads against each other are misguided town v. misguided town.  I don't think it's likely, but it's possible.

I await Frisk's analysis upon his arrival, as he's the only person in this town I can 100% trust besides myself.  We have plenty of time, even if it means this turns out to be a slow week.

[yuma]

I was about to be suspicious that ash hadn't responded to my post, but turns out he logged out of the forum exactly one minute before I posted it...

But sure, wait for Frisk.

[ashersky]

I was about to be suspicious that ash hadn't responded to my post, but turns out he logged out of the forum exactly one minute before I posted it...

But sure, wait for Frisk.

Have been away from the computer, and will continue to.  I think we need to take out the fake cop, because I think he's the cop switch.  Then Qvist can read me or Yuma and ensure the win tomorrow

Vote: Voltgloss, as I will be away for awhile again.  And now we await Frisk, which is the pro-town thing to do.

[yuma]

was just thinking about this because town needs to lynch twice to win. We need to prepare for tomorrow...

Because of this it would be better to lynch the cop today (unfortunately I don't know which claim is true...) because if we lynch the mafia claim then the cop tomorrow can potentially investigate and be sure about their read (for example, he can investigate either me or ash and be sure that which ever he investigates is scum or town) for the win.

I have to stake the game on this, because if we lynch non-claim tomorrow we are back in a tricky situation tomorrow.

vote: Qvist

[yuma]

Ninjad by ash...

But!

this post further shows that I am right about him and about Qvist.  Because ash is staking the game on us mislynching volt.

Because if he is bussing volt here the game is over for scum because cop Qvist would be able to use the cop powers to investigate and know for sure who is town and who is scum.

Yeah, I vote Qvist and will not be deviating from that.

[ashersky]

Ninjad by ash...

But!

this post further shows that I am right about him and about Qvist.  Because ash is staking the game on us mislynching volt.

Because if he is bussing volt here the game is over for scum because cop Qvist would be able to use the cop powers to investigate and know for sure who is town and who is scum.

Yeah, I vote Qvist and will not be deviating from that.

Except Qvist voted me, so if he's bussing me, doesn't the same hold true?  If he is scum and I am scum, killing each other loses the game, since Volt cop finds the right person, right?  Scum volt is banking on the Qvist mislynch, and you are helping him, as his scum partner.  That's why you are not willing to vote for Volt, your partner, even though in your theory, Qvist is ready to vote for his.

As it is, we agree on what has to happen, which is lynch the fake cop and let the real cop investigate either of us to clear one.

Looks like it is up to Frisk.

[yuma]

No....

If we lynch you, and you are scum, we are left with me (town) tomorrow not knowing which of the two cops to believe.

You will be dead. Frisk will be NK. And I will have to choose between Qvist and Volt. So I guess I am making that decision now.

But if we lynch the fake cop today (I think Qvist), town has a surefire win because there will be a cop investigating either me or you, Frisk again is likely to be NK. The cop will know both of our alignments and will vote accordingly, I will vote for you and you will die and then town will win. Simple.

[yuma]

wait... I am dumb... frisk might not be the nk... the cop likely will.... sorry.

[ashersky]

wait... I am dumb... frisk might not be the nk... the cop likely will.... sorry.

Your entire theory is correct, just replace your name with mine.

[yuma]

Gah!

I was really excited since I thought we were likely to have this down pat. Now I see that it will take a bit more. So I guess from my point of view either today or tomorrow I am going to have to make an educated guess and the other I will be 100% sure.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok

So first:

I'm sorry.  I should have seen that munch / joth needed to be doctor, and thus lyching one guaranteed the doctor kill.  I had kindof forgotten somehow that the other 2 had claimed VT.  I still think that Axxle was kindof scummy in his response, and I probably would have wanted to kill him anyway.

Second: FOS everyone else for not noticing it / calling it out either.  Volt - this looks especially bad for you.

I will not be voting while I"m on V/LA

Qvist / Volt

Please analyze asher and yuma.  Who do you think is the most likely scum and why?

Asher / Yuma.  Obviously you both think the other is scum.  Tell me why you think the other is lying.

[yuma]

Ok

So first:

I'm sorry.  I should have seen that munch / joth needed to be doctor, and thus lyching one guaranteed the doctor kill.  I had kindof forgotten somehow that the other 2 had claimed VT.  I still think that Axxle was kindof scummy in his response, and I probably would have wanted to kill him anyway.

Second: FOS everyone else for not noticing it / calling it out either.  Volt - this looks especially bad for you.

I will not be voting while I"m on V/LA

Qvist / Volt

Please analyze asher and yuma.  Who do you think is the most likely scum and why?

Asher / Yuma.  Obviously you both think the other is scum.  Tell me why you think the other is lying.

No Frisk.

I know that ash is scum. 100%. No doubt about it. There are 6 vts in this game, you are one, I am one. There isn't room for ash, so he must be scum. Case closed. Obviously you don't know that. But I do.

[Voltgloss]

Ok

So first:

I'm sorry.  I should have seen that munch / joth needed to be doctor, and thus lyching one guaranteed the doctor kill.  I had kindof forgotten somehow that the other 2 had claimed VT.  I still think that Axxle was kindof scummy in his response, and I probably would have wanted to kill him anyway.

Second: FOS everyone else for not noticing it / calling it out either.  Volt - this looks especially bad for you.

Frisk, do you mean that either "Axxle or Munch" needed to be doctor?  You said in your opening post of Day 3 that you figured Munch was the doctor - and you also said your plan would likely result in the doctor dying.  I thought you were assuming that risk - you seemed to have noticed it and taken it into account.

Qvist / Volt

Please analyze asher and yuma.  Who do you think is the most likely scum and why?

I explained why I think asher is more likely scum upthread.  Leaving aside ash's scummy responses today and reneging on the plan to lynch Qvist if Axxle flipped town, the fact is that one of the two scenarios is true:

(1) If ash is scum:  On Day 2, scum!joth and scum!ash jumped 1-2 on the yumawagon I started, in an effort to lynch yuma.  Scum!Qvist was unwilling to be the hammer on a wagon made predominantly of scum.  Then the wagon fizzled out (no thanks to joth's and ash's efforts to keep it going).

Or:

(2) If yuma is scum:  On Day 2, scum!joth bussed yuma and allowed his wagon to stay at L-1 for an extended period of time, during which there was significant risk of yuma being lynched.  This at a time when the lynch of any scum player would break scum's stranglehold on the town's power roles.

I think (1) is significantly more likely than (2).  So I think ash is more likely than not the last scum.

[Qvist]

Qvist / Volt

Please analyze asher and yuma.  Who do you think is the most likely scum and why?

I already answered this.

After trying to get an insight about yuma vs. ashersky from yesterday's behaviour, I think I have an idea what might going on. Voltgloss tried the bandwagon on day 2 to kill yuma what ended in yuma claiming VT after nobody wanted to do the hammer. He realized that it won't work and was actually the first to unvote what I just looked up.

Yesterday he tried to start a bandwagon on me what ended in us both claiming cop. But he always accused both Axxle and me and then the bandwagon on Axxle started. This was like this.

@Volt, I think I'm good with you coming in now... I'm solidly convinced that Axxle is scum and we're going to win.

This was the sign for ashersky who was really quiet until then.

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

Voltgloss was the next to vote and then:

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

I'm pretty confident with a Voltgloss / ashersky scum pair.

[Qvist]

I'm surprised by your vote on me, yuma. For me it's obvious that the scum pair is Voltgloss / ashersky as Voltgloss didn't want to quickhammer his partner and all their interactions on the last day.
But either way, I assume we can't get to a point where we determine this day's lynch without Captain_Frisk participating in this vote. So, CF, I'm really interested in your opinion. Who do you think is most likely the scum pair currently?

[yuma]

I'm surprised by your vote on me, yuma. For me it's obvious that the scum pair is Voltgloss / ashersky as Voltgloss didn't want to quickhammer his partner and all their interactions on the last day.
But either way, I assume we can't get to a point where we determine this day's lynch without Captain_Frisk participating in this vote. So, CF, I'm really interested in your opinion. Who do you think is most likely the scum pair currently?

My vote on you is explained thusly.

I know that ashersky is scum. I 100% know this. I also 100% know that jot was scum. Again I 100% know this (we all do). I also know 100% that Volt, jot and ash voted for me Day 2.

I also know (actually is this something the mod would be kind enough to clarify... that is when exactly did Volt officially join the game? Was it after the start of day 2?) that Volt joined into this game mid-day 2 meaning that he was not involved in any quicktopic discussion during the night if he was scum. As such, I have a very hard time believing that scum would line up 1-2-3 on me the way they did.

I also have a hard time believing that scum!volt would have pushed a case against 2 townie players (Axxle and town!qvist) the way he did yesterday. This isn't great play because it result in two townies becoming against you.

These two examples lead me to believe that volt is town, but that you are not. This also conforms to the scum read that I had on you throughout Day 2 and Day 3. I am pretty confident in my reads (not TheMunch confident, but confident nonetheless.

As for my switching to you over ashersky... well let's say we do lynch ashersky.... that would leave qvist, yuma, cfrisk and volt alive so 4. Scum would kill frisk in this situation. And I would be forced to make a decision between you and volt again. So instead I am making that decision now and will be able to be around tomorrow to help convince frisk to vote ashersky tomorrow.

[Insomniac]

Volt did join after the start of day 2 that is clarified by looking for the post where I officially subbed him in. However he subbed in for Grujah

[ashersky]

Asher / Yuma.  Obviously you both think the other is scum.  Tell me why you think the other is lying.

Frisk, I know Yuma is lying because the setup doesn't allow for yuma to be anything but mafia.  There are five players alive right now.  There are:

2 mafia
2 VT
1 Cop

Now, one of the cop claims is actually the cop, the other is scum.  That leaves:

1 mafia
2 VT

You are VT, confirmed by the real cop.  I am VT, confirmed to me by my PM.  That leaves:

1 mafia

That mafia is yuma.  That is how I've come to my conclusion.  Yuma has to be the fake cop's scumpartner.

Now, given I am 100% sure of yuma, but not 100% sure of Voltgloss, there could be an argument for lynching him first.  In fact, yuma made it when he thought to vote me.  Yuma (and I, as noted when yuma said I ninja'ed him) felt this was not as good a plan.

Here are the two ways to go today, and what I see coming out of it:

Town lynches yuma.  No way scum!cop kills the other other cop claim, because that kills his fake claim.  So one of Frisk or I dies at night, and the survivor has to make the choice between the two cops to win or lose for town.

Town lynches the fake cop.  Yuma will kill the real cop to ensure there's no further information given, and then it's me and yuma trying to convince Frisk to choose the right person.

So in both cases, we end up with the fate of town in one person's hands.  I think in actuality, both options are equally fine as far as ensuring the town win.

[yuma]

^ash just basically repeated everything I have already said, but subbed his name in for mine and vice versa...

[ashersky]

^ash just basically repeated everything I have already said, but subbed his name in for mine and vice versa...

To be fair, we've been doing that for awhile now, given you are fake claiming to be in my exact position.

I wanted to point out a few things, which I can go dig quotes up for if required.  I used the print function to read back with an eye toward yuma, and wanted to remind folks about his Galzria quickhammer and the talk surrounding it.  I also noticed just how long his wagon lasted without ever lynching which I think is definitely a scum trait.  While under pressure for the quickhammer, yuma admitted he would have hammered even had he read the PR claim.  He also said he could self-hammer as scum to end discussion, which is a very wifom scum thing to say.  Also Volt started the yuma wagon, a great spot for bussing.

Look at the Galz wagon again: CF (town), eHunt (town), Galz (SK), Joth (mafia), Munch (town), Yuma -- Galz gave the mafia the perfect excuse for hammering here--and I think it's likely there were two mafia on this wagon.  Yuma is the second.

I think I might actually prefer the yuma lynch first, and leave it up to Frisk to figure out which cop is lying (I think VG).  It's so clear to me, not just from the fact that he's lying about being a VT since there aren't any more VT slots left, but from his actions in the game.

vote: yuma but if Frisk believes strongly we need to get the cop first, will listen.

[yuma]

^ash just basically repeated everything I have already said, but subbed his name in for mine and vice versa...

To be fair, we've been doing that for awhile now, given you are fake claiming to be in my exact position.

I wanted to point out a few things, which I can go dig quotes up for if required.  I used the print function to read back with an eye toward yuma, and wanted to remind folks about his Galzria quickhammer and the talk surrounding it.  I also noticed just how long his wagon lasted without ever lynching which I think is definitely a scum trait.  While under pressure for the quickhammer, yuma admitted he would have hammered even had he read the PR claim.  He also said he could self-hammer as scum to end discussion, which is a very wifom scum thing to say.  Also Volt started the yuma wagon, a great spot for bussing.

Look at the Galz wagon again: CF (town), eHunt (town), Galz (SK), Joth (mafia), Munch (town), Yuma -- Galz gave the mafia the perfect excuse for hammering here--and I think it's likely there were two mafia on this wagon.  Yuma is the second.

I think I might actually prefer the yuma lynch first, and leave it up to Frisk to figure out which cop is lying (I think VG).  It's so clear to me, not just from the fact that he's lying about being a VT since there aren't any more VT slots left, but from his actions in the game.

vote: yuma but if Frisk believes strongly we need to get the cop first, will listen.

just to be clear... you think that scum left me at L-1, with both jot and volt bussing scum!yuma for most of day 2 at a time when bussing was not a good option--losing the PR advantage?

You are obviously scrambling. You and Qvist are scum. Frisk will realize this after his V/LA.

[ashersky]

^ash just basically repeated everything I have already said, but subbed his name in for mine and vice versa...

To be fair, we've been doing that for awhile now, given you are fake claiming to be in my exact position.

I wanted to point out a few things, which I can go dig quotes up for if required.  I used the print function to read back with an eye toward yuma, and wanted to remind folks about his Galzria quickhammer and the talk surrounding it.  I also noticed just how long his wagon lasted without ever lynching which I think is definitely a scum trait.  While under pressure for the quickhammer, yuma admitted he would have hammered even had he read the PR claim.  He also said he could self-hammer as scum to end discussion, which is a very wifom scum thing to say.  Also Volt started the yuma wagon, a great spot for bussing.

Look at the Galz wagon again: CF (town), eHunt (town), Galz (SK), Joth (mafia), Munch (town), Yuma -- Galz gave the mafia the perfect excuse for hammering here--and I think it's likely there were two mafia on this wagon.  Yuma is the second.

I think I might actually prefer the yuma lynch first, and leave it up to Frisk to figure out which cop is lying (I think VG).  It's so clear to me, not just from the fact that he's lying about being a VT since there aren't any more VT slots left, but from his actions in the game.

vote: yuma but if Frisk believes strongly we need to get the cop first, will listen.

just to be clear... you think that scum left me at L-1, with both jot and volt bussing scum!yuma for most of day 2 at a time when bussing was not a good option--losing the PR advantage?

You are obviously scrambling. You and Qvist are scum. Frisk will realize this after his V/LA.

I do, in fact.  As you yourself have pointed out, scum didn't want to lose credibility by unvoting.  You actually made the arguments that your wagon was full of scum.  You may also recall that I was the one to put you at L-1 (more than once) and kept unvoting because I wasn't sure and didn't want to make a mistake.

So I think you and VG are scum.  If you are Qvist are the team, though, Qvist deserves some sort of award.

[yuma]

it was full of scum! you and jot!

[yuma]

Oh... and one other major argument that I somehow completely forgot about...

We have lynched one scum in this game already. I was on that lynch. You weren't. You voted me and Frisk all day long Day 2 (both confirmed townies). You never even voted for joth all game long

You also listed jot nice squarely in the middle in your "who to lynch list"

1. Frisk
2. Yuma
3. Axxle
4. TheMunch
5. Joth
6. Qvist
7. Eevee
8. Voltgloss
9. Ashersky

Also of interest are some of the comments jot made about you, when he does talk about you (which isn't often).

I don't have a strong opinion about ashersky. I never seem to.

Nothing here...

Yeah, we really haven't seen ashersky in a long time.

Finally mentions you, but in such a meaningless way...

I think an ashersky lurker lynch would acceptable to me in and of itself. But the fact that it's been pushed heavily by my top two scumspects, yuma and Eevee, means that it's either a bad idea or I've been way off-base all along. (Which I admit is more than possible).

Here he says you could be a good lynch... but it can't be trustworthy because it is being pushed by two people he has scum reads on=he knows to be town...

Well, my lunch break is over and I need to get off F.DS so I can write this stupid story. (Last day before Thanksgiving break = complete lack of work ethic).

If a yuma hammer isn't dropped when I get back (and I highly doubt it will be, for whatever reason) then I'll change my vote next time I come online. Either to Eevee or ashersky.

This is interesting because of what comes next....

as promised, Vote: Eevee

Thanks for making the choice between you and ashersky really easy.

inb4 someone asks for my case on Eevee and/or accuses me of OMGUS: He's almost single-handedly responsible for stopping the yuma wagon in its tracks and he generally seems WAY too sure yuma is town with no evidence, and in spite of evidence to the contrary. I have been expressing a scum read on him all along.

He just made a long case on me with virtually no content, basically just reposting yuma's suspicion list and adding "because he's scum" to the end of everything I do. Pretty lazy.

He votes for eevee over ash... I wonder why?

1. Eevee
2. Yuma
3. Ashersky
4. Axxle
5. Qvist
6. Frisk
7. Voltgloss
8. Jotheonah

jot puts you in a nice high on suspicion list but not high enough to vote

vote: ashersky works for me.

and then he finally votes for you once both the wagons on me and eevee have died off and he has realized that he can't get another wagon started anywhere else.

Conclusion: You are jot are scummates. You never voted for him, he only voted for you in a last ditch attempt after not getting his wagons on me and eevee (two townies) to go through. I voted for jot. You didn't.

How you going to spin this one ash?

[ashersky]

Conclusion: You are jot are scummates. You never voted for him, he only voted for you in a last ditch attempt after not getting his wagons on me and eevee (two townies) to go through. I voted for jot. You didn't.

How you going to spin this one ash?

You don't honestly believe this argument, do you?  What sort of scum team purposefully DOESN'T vote for each other?  The type that loves to draw suspicion to each other?

You are basically accusing me and jot of being the worst scum pair ever, to try and clear yourself.  Let's look at your interaction with your scumbuddy.

[yuma]

Conclusion: You are jot are scummates. You never voted for him, he only voted for you in a last ditch attempt after not getting his wagons on me and eevee (two townies) to go through. I voted for jot. You didn't.

How you going to spin this one ash?

You don't honestly believe this argument, do you?  What sort of scum team purposefully DOESN'T vote for each other?  The type that loves to draw suspicion to each other?

You are basically accusing me and jot of being the worst scum pair ever, to try and clear yourself.  Let's look at your interaction with your scumbuddy.

In this scenario absolutely yes. scum did not want to buss today at all. Once they did they would have lost the advantage over the power roles via the switches... this was detailed pretty early on day 2 and was universally received by the town.

And yes I am sure, because I am 100% sure you are scum. So it is obviously true.

[ashersky]

Joth's interactions with yuma:

D1 -- Zero.  Literally, no mentions, responses, replies.  Zilch.

D2 -- Here's where we see it.  Joth says he's awaiting your defense to Volt's case, then:

My only explanation, w/o reading any of the subsequent posts after yours, is to say that I voted immediately after reading Galz's selfvote. I didn't know he had claimed, I didn't know he was at L-1.

So it sounds like you are saying:

1)  At the time you voted Galzria - 4:17:39 p.m. forum time, about 25 minutes after Galz's self-vote - you had read Galzria's self-vote but had NOT read any of the 21 posts between that self-vote and your hammer.

2)  66 seconds later, at 4:18:45 p.m. forum time, you had read those intervening 21 posts and realized your vote was the hammer.

This is not plausible.

Here's what's plausible:  scum!yuma concluded Galz was SK and seized the chance to hammer him before Galz had a chance to withdraw his self-vote.

That is why I referenced the derphammer in my next post. But I maintain that it wasn't because I would have voted for Galz even if I knew all of the above. I will vote selfvotes.

You will vote selfvotes even when doing so is the hammer and the selfvoter has claimed having a power role but has not yet identified said role?

I don't think town!yuma would do that.  scum!yuma would, given sufficient reasons.  I think you thought those reasons existed here.

Emphasis mine. This is as good as catching yuma in a lie, for me. I'm happy to sheep Volt here and vote: yuma.

Boom, busses right away.  But then...

Here's joth waffling on his scumpartner to get cred:

I don't know how I feel about this situation. At this point, IF yuma is town, scum is scared to hammer because they'll be obvscum tomorrow (or they're all on the wagon).

If yuma is scum though, town players might be scared to hammer for the same reason. Are we learning anything right now, or are we just talking ourselves out of a good lynch?

More bussing...

jot you still have not answered me regarding this:

PPE: Jot, you are completely ignoring my response to that post... If you look you can see that I skimmed the posts for a vote count... that is very easily gone in 66 seconds.

your vote was based on "as good as catching me in a lie." I have offered the true explanation of what happened? Do you think I am still lying? Or are you voting me for other reasons? If other reasons, because I can't see you voting for me when I have a good explanation for this supposed lie, why haven't you explained them?

I don't like that you hammered accidentally. If you're town and you're signing on and voting, and it's not close to a deadline, you should have read the whole thread.

Your explanation is believable, but I don't believe it. Volt's narrative of the whole thing, that you are scum who decided outing a power role/SK was worth the risk of derphammering, is still the most believable narrative to me.

And now walking it back to save his team...

I'm not in love with the yuma lynch, and if you have another case to present, by all means. So far, Volt's case on yuma is the only case I've seen that's based on hard evidence. That seems preferable to distrusting wagons just for being wagons or voting based on a gut read you refuse to explain. I am not loving this playstyle from you, Eevee.

And then this is great.  Joth continued to push an Eevee lynch during the day to get the heat off of him (and his partner yuma).  To continue to grab cred for it, he partners Eevee with yuma:

I sort of dislike Eevee's web of gut FOSes.

I mean, I get gut reads, sure. But with only one mislynch and a credible evidence-based case, does it make sense to trust them right now? And why is Eevee so desperate to derail the yuma wagon, and yet unable to produce cases on any of his reads? Until I see some evidence otherwise, Occam's Razor seems to point to yuma-Eevee. Right now I'm voting yuma of the two, because if he's right, a town flip will more or less clear Eevee for me.

(No idea who the third partner on that scum team would be. Maybe Axxle?)

And then scum!joth says:

Lets play a game:

@ everyone in this list.
{joth, axxle, eevee, ashersky, voltgloss}

Provide your top 2 scum reads and the 1 person you would bet the game is town inside that set of 5 people.

Still catching up, but SCUM: Eevee, ashersky
Town: Voltgloss

Dropping yuma from the equation completely, and listing his other partner in the safe zone.

I'll point out in the list you quoted from him that you and VG sit at second from both ends, both scummy seats.  Funnily enough, he slid you back into the second scum slot when he was under the most pressure, even though he had dropped you from his list to frame a townie when he gave the top 2 read I quote above.



The way joth interactions with and about you is exactly how smart scum would play it, and you both are smart scum.  I know joth is scum 100%, and I know you are 100%.

[yuma]

Your last quote is an incorrect interpretation, I am not listed because I was not listed in Frisk's scummy 5. But that is a mute point because frankly, the rest of the above post isn't very good anyways.

[ashersky]

Your last quote is an incorrect interpretation, I am not listed because I was not listed in Frisk's scummy 5. But that is a mute point because frankly, the rest of the above post isn't very good anyways.

"Isn't very good anyways": The greatest argument ever made in a mafia game ever!

Clearly you've just given up at this point, caught.

[ashersky]

On a side note, where is everyone else?  I know Frisk is V/LA-ish, but VG and Qvist?  They've both given up in trying to prove their innocence?

And what's the vote count?

[yuma]

yeah I have given up trying to argue with scum. There isn't a point in trying to argue with you. I laid out my case for Frisk and the others. Obviously I can't convince you. If they have questions they can ask me. As for you, we are done talking.

[ashersky]

yeah I have given up trying to argue with scum. There isn't a point in trying to argue with you. I laid out my case for Frisk and the others. Obviously I can't convince you. If they have questions they can ask me. As for you, we are done talking.

Enjoy trying to lurk yourself to survival, scum.  Just one question, which switcher are you?

[yuma]

yeah I have given up trying to argue with scum. There isn't a point in trying to argue with you. I laid out my case for Frisk and the others. Obviously I can't convince you. If they have questions they can ask me. As for you, we are done talking.

Enjoy trying to lurk yourself to survival, scum.  Just one question, which switcher are you?

troll

[Voltgloss]

I know Frisk is V/LA-ish, but VG and Qvist?  They've both given up in trying to prove their innocence?

Frisk asked a question, I responded, and I'm waiting to hear further from him.  He's very much VLA - hasn't been posting basically anywhere this week - but we have time, and I am sure he will have plenty to say when he has the opportunity.

[Qvist]

I'm V/LA from Wednesday until Friday.

I'm currently in the hotel, so I check some threads.
But I don't have a lot to say. I'm still interested in CF's opinion and until then I'll wait with any comments.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 4-1

Qvist (2) - Voltgloss, yuma
Ashersky (1) - Qvist
yuma (1) - ashersky

Not Voting (1) - Captain_Frisk

[ashersky]

All right - I'm at the hotel - I'm going to take one pass through each of my games, post what I can, and then i'm off.  This is the best I'll be able to do until Friday night.

Frisk, where are you?  Back as of Friday, per VLA thread.  We want to hear from you!

[yuma]

I was really hoping that Frisk would get to this before I leave as I am not sure if I will be around. I'll keep my vote where it is for now on Qvist, but just as a reminder I know ashersky to be scum, 100%.

If I can get online in California I will, but I make no guarantees.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right - I'm at the hotel - I'm going to take one pass through each of my games, post what I can, and then i'm off.  This is the best I'll be able to do until Friday night.

Frisk, where are you?  Back as of Friday, per VLA thread.  We want to hear from you!

Back late friday, hung out with colleagues again (unplanned).  All day gameday yesterday, late night iso tourney, and then trying to recover wife points and catch up today.  I'll get to this tomorrow.  Sorry yuma.

[yuma]

No prob but I do want my vote to be in a place where it can be used if I am not around to change it. Real quick if you feel comfortable answering this. Qvist or ash? Where would my vote better be? If you can't answer I'll leave it where it is

[ashersky]

Bump.

Frisk, are you on this game yet?

[Voltgloss]

I think he said he'd be reviewing sometime today, so I'm guessing we'll likely hear from him in the evening or tomorrow morning.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok, I think I've hit all of the other games - so this is next.

[Captain_Frisk]

Sorry - this game got lowest priority - not having bankable deadlines, and its not like you guys are going to make a mistake and lynch me for lurking in this game.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok

So first:

I'm sorry.  I should have seen that munch / joth needed to be doctor, and thus lyching one guaranteed the doctor kill.  I had kindof forgotten somehow that the other 2 had claimed VT.  I still think that Axxle was kindof scummy in his response, and I probably would have wanted to kill him anyway.

Second: FOS everyone else for not noticing it / calling it out either.  Volt - this looks especially bad for you.

I will not be voting while I"m on V/LA

Qvist / Volt

Please analyze asher and yuma.  Who do you think is the most likely scum and why?

Asher / Yuma.  Obviously you both think the other is scum.  Tell me why you think the other is lying.

No Frisk.

I know that ash is scum. 100%. No doubt about it. There are 6 vts in this game, you are one, I am one. There isn't room for ash, so he must be scum. Case closed. Obviously you don't know that. But I do.

Responding 1 post at a time.  This post is 100% useless to me and whichever of Qvist / Volt is town.  Do better.

[Captain_Frisk]

And this one was pretty short to catch up.  Time for some rereading.

[Captain_Frisk]

Ok - We have 4 possible scum pairs

1. Volt + Yuma
2. Volt + Ashersky
3. Qvist + Yuma
4. Qvist + Ashersky

If it was deadline and I had to bet the game without serious thought, I'd go with #4.  I'm pro qvist at this point per arguments made yesterday.

Vote Count 2-6

Qvist (2) - Eevee, yuma
Captain_Frisk (2) - Axxle, QVist
yuma (4) - Voltgloss, jotheonah, TheMunch, ashersky
Eevee (1) - Captain_Frisk

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: November 26 2012, Noon PST

I think this pretty much crosses out Volt + Yuma as a scum pair.


1. Volt + Yuma
2. Volt + Ashersky
3. Qvist + Yuma
4. Qvist + Ashersky

This is the current inofficial vote count:

jotheonah (3) - Eevee, Axxle, yuma
ashersky (3) - Captain_Frisk, TheMunch, jotheonah
Axxle (2) - Voltgloss, ashersky
Captain_Frisk (1) - Qvist

This one is a problem.  Either yuma is bussing his scumbuddy, or Joth is.  I'm thinking that Joth was trying to line up some cred as he was near lynch - either he'd get some cred for killing scum, or he'd semi clear axxle. 

[Captain_Frisk]

Much as I appreciate scum!Qvist voting for the person who I think is most likely his partner, I am NOT about to drop a hammer while Frisk is on V/LA.

This post 100% clears Volt + Yuma scumpair.  If Asher was town and Volt was scum, Volt drops the hammer and wins the game with this post.

[Captain_Frisk]

Yeah, I'm going Qvist + Asher. 

[Captain_Frisk]

I will now hear closing arguments from the defense?

[Qvist]

I don't understand why you think, I'm more likely scum than Voltgloss. And you didn't reply to that:

Qvist / Volt

Please analyze asher and yuma.  Who do you think is the most likely scum and why?

I already answered this.

After trying to get an insight about yuma vs. ashersky from yesterday's behaviour, I think I have an idea what might going on. Voltgloss tried the bandwagon on day 2 to kill yuma what ended in yuma claiming VT after nobody wanted to do the hammer. He realized that it won't work and was actually the first to unvote what I just looked up.

Yesterday he tried to start a bandwagon on me what ended in us both claiming cop. But he always accused both Axxle and me and then the bandwagon on Axxle started. This was like this.

@Volt, I think I'm good with you coming in now... I'm solidly convinced that Axxle is scum and we're going to win.

This was the sign for ashersky who was really quiet until then.

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

Voltgloss was the next to vote and then:

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

I'm pretty confident with a Voltgloss / ashersky scum pair.

[Captain_Frisk]

I don't understand why you think, I'm more likely scum than Voltgloss. And you didn't reply to that:

Qvist / Volt

Please analyze asher and yuma.  Who do you think is the most likely scum and why?

I already answered this.

After trying to get an insight about yuma vs. ashersky from yesterday's behaviour, I think I have an idea what might going on. Voltgloss tried the bandwagon on day 2 to kill yuma what ended in yuma claiming VT after nobody wanted to do the hammer. He realized that it won't work and was actually the first to unvote what I just looked up.

Yesterday he tried to start a bandwagon on me what ended in us both claiming cop. But he always accused both Axxle and me and then the bandwagon on Axxle started. This was like this.

@Volt, I think I'm good with you coming in now... I'm solidly convinced that Axxle is scum and we're going to win.

This was the sign for ashersky who was really quiet until then.

Popped in to catch up and a new plan is there.

I said Volt/Axxle or Q/Axxle, and I still think that.  I like Frisk's plan, and think he understands I had this plan as well.

I am okay with Vote: Axxle with Frisk's plan.

Voltgloss was the next to vote and then:

Ill read through but beer friday started at the office and wereI headed toto a bar later so i cant guarantee a good response

L-1 and we get this?  I say hammer.

I'm pretty confident with a Voltgloss / ashersky scum pair.

I talked about this a bunch yesterday.  If Volt was scum, he was trying to push super hard on 2 townies at once.

The other thing is that I think letting the cop investigation through is extremely crazy scum play - so I also suspect people with less experience.

In your favor is you did drop your case on me early in day 3 - after you received your "results"

[Qvist]

Yeah, but can't you see the pattern?

I mean, he tried to start several bandwagons, the first on yuma which didn't work out.
After being the one with the most town credit, he started another one on me and claiming cop although most didn't want to claim.
He couldn't know that I'm actually the real cop and as I pointed out that I investigated you he had to claim the same which let him look bad and so he tried to distract from that discussion and tried the next bandwagon on Axxle. I agree that this is risky play. But after you voted Axxle, Voltgloss and ashersky both immediately joined and forced the hammer.

[Captain_Frisk]

Fair enough:

Vote: Ashersky

[Voltgloss]

Frisk, I'm prepared to hammer - as I agree with your conclusion that ash is most likely the scum out of ash-vs-yuma, for the reasons I described before - but do you want me to wait first until ash has had an opportunity to respond?

[Captain_Frisk]

What a weird game.  Sure, lets see what Asher has to say.  I'm in no rush.

[yuma]

I am here and willing to vote ash, as I know he is scum.

Actually, no... I don't want to hear his defense, because I know he is scum 100%... so there!

vote: ashersky

[Captain_Frisk]

So thats the hammer, right?

[Captain_Frisk]

Did you just win Yuma?

[Voltgloss]

If he did, my hat is off to him for playing a masterful scum game.

[Captain_Frisk]

Let's get some twilight talk on.  Assuming we hit scum, I think I favor qvist lynch tomorrow.

[yuma]

it wasn't the hammer, I believe I was already on ash... I thought I had unvoted before I left on vacation, but hadn't... and no I would not have won. It would have sent us into the next day to lynch qvist.

[Voltgloss]

It's the hammer.  Qvist's vote is on ash, I think.

[Captain_Frisk]

I believe that you, me and qvist are voting asher.... and there are only 5 alive, right?

[yuma]

hmm, you appear to be right, but ash is scum... so onto the next day!

[yuma]

I read the vote count backwards and saw ash voting for me and read it as me voting for ash... derp as O would say...

but again, I haven't won. ash was scum, so good job scum hunting!

[Captain_Frisk]

hmm, you appear to be right, but ash is scum... so onto the next day!

If this is the case, then you and I are both ICs.  One of us is going to die tonight.  Who do you favor lynching tomorrow?

[Captain_Frisk]

Asher - hurry up and get in here and explain why you let the cop investigate?

[yuma]

Qvist, hands down... There is no way volt, ash and jot all joined my wagon start of day 1 from the start.

[Voltgloss]

FWIW, I still think the reason scum let the Cop investigate is that they were sure Eevee had breadcrumbed Cop. 

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - are you sure you don't think that Volt is super crafty?

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist counter claiming him is very very strange play.

[yuma]

hmmm, I might end up getting killed tonight for some major WIFOM

[Voltgloss]

Qvist counter claiming him is very very strange play.

It made sense if he thought I'd investigated him and was about to out him as scum.  The two big shifts in my expressed views between Day 2 and Day 3 were (1) less suspicion of Frisk and (2) more suspicion of Qvist, so his trying to preempt both by fakeclaiming Cop with a town result on Frisk was his best shot at preempting me.

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist counter claiming him is very very strange play.

It made sense if he thought I'd investigated him and was about to out him as scum.  The two big shifts in my expressed views between Day 2 and Day 3 were (1) less suspicion of Frisk and (2) more suspicion of Qvist, so his trying to preempt both by fakeclaiming Cop with a town result on Frisk was his best shot at preempting me.

This is very advanced play that doesn't make sense for someone who tunnelled on me all day.

[yuma]

this makes me excited guys... after such a bad start--partially my fault and being so close to being lynched day 2. I am thrilled that we got town close to a win!

[Captain_Frisk]

Then there's the whole question of qvist still voting asher when its clear that consensus is pointing at him.

[Captain_Frisk]

this makes me excited guys... after such a bad start--partially my fault and being so close to being lynched day 2. I am thrilled that we got town close to a win!

We are no longer friends if you are trolling right now.

[Captain_Frisk]

And insomniac is even online!

[Captain_Frisk]

He's just letting you have fun isn't he.

[Insomniac]

THREAD LOCKED

[Insomniac]

The group stood around Ash. "Obvscum" yuma replied They took ash and hung him up above the pool by his neck. until his form remained lifeless, they intended to leave him there to drive fear into anyone passing by. They start to worry about him not being scum as nothing drops from his corpse. Then a switch falls out of his pocket labeled doctor.

Ashersky The Mafia Doctor Switch is dead.

Night Deadline December 13 8:00am PST

[Insomniac]

I may open early if I get all the night actions early

[Insomniac]

You awaken to a loud bang, The body had not deterred the mafia, and the town should have known it the mafia handles bodies all of the time, one of their own doesn't deter them. The 3 remaining dart into the room where the bang had came from to find that yuma the Vanilla townie had been killed and was laying in a pool of his own blood. The 3 of you immediatley all backed away and looked at each other moving around clockwise in a circle shouting accusations at each other as to whom killed yuma.

Day 5 Start!

[Captain_Frisk]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Captain_Frisk]

Well that sucks.

I totally wanted to be the kill so that the decision would fall on yuma.

[Captain_Frisk]

Volt - you were a part time mod in this game.  Did you truly have no game information?

[Voltgloss]

This will be a surprise to no one, but I investigated Qvist last night, to make it official; and yes, it's official, he is definitely scum. 

Vote: Qvist

Now, to respond to Frisk's question yesterday that I was typing up when the thread got locked.

Qvist counter claiming him is very very strange play.

It made sense if he thought I'd investigated him and was about to out him as scum.  The two big shifts in my expressed views between Day 2 and Day 3 were (1) less suspicion of Frisk and (2) more suspicion of Qvist, so his trying to preempt both by fakeclaiming Cop with a town result on Frisk was his best shot at preempting me.

This is very advanced play that doesn't make sense for someone who tunnelled on me all day.

It's a fair point that the preemption idea is advanced play.  But Qvist's behavior can also be explained by a simpler narrative:

1.  During Night 2, Qvist and ash decide to switch off the Doctor and to kill Eevee.  They know that if the Cop is someone other than Eevee, then the Cop will have a working investigation going into Day 3.
2.  ash has claimed VT already and so can't fakeclaim Cop.  So only Qvist can fakeclaim Cop.
3.  To fakeclaim Cop, Qvist needs to say who he investigated (and cleared as Town).  Newbie scum Qvist thinks:  "Who is the most believable target?"  The answer he decides on:  "The person I expressed the most suspicion of Day 2."  So, Frisk.
4.  To support that planned fakeclaim, Qvist makes a point of reducing his announced suspicion of Frisk during Day 3.
5.  When I claim Cop, Qvist is in a "now or never" situation and decides he'd better fakeclaim.  And so claims to have investigated Frisk, per the original plan.

Frisk, here's my question to you:  Looking over Day 2, knowing now that joth and ash were scum - does their play make more sense if the last scum is Qvist, or does their play make more sense if the last scum is me? 

I posit that it makes more sense if the last scum is Qvist, but of course I am biased because I know Qvist is scum.  I am confident that, upon your own review of the record, you will reach the same conclusion.   

[Voltgloss]

Volt - you were a part time mod in this game.  Did you truly have no game information?

Huh?  I was never a part time mod in THIS game.  Shocking, I know.  But if I had been a part time mod, I'd never have replaced in. 

I did post a ginormous "THREAD LOCKED" at the end of Day 1, but that's only because I was watching the game and couldn't believe the amount of post-lock posting going on.

Insom can confirm that I never had any modding duties in this game nor have any info about the setup (besides what my Cop role has told me).

[Captain_Frisk]

Grrr.

I have 2 options.

Either the Asher + Qvist newbie scum pair did something crazy (letting the cop activate)

OR

Crafty scum voltgloss (and member of my scummy 5!) let the cop through with the nefarious goal of outing the PRs so that they wouldn't have to have switch craziness for the rest of the game.

I reread Asher last night, and if he's been scumteam tunnelling Voltgloss, its been EPIC.

[Captain_Frisk]

So - why was Yuma killed? 

Simple answer: because he was going to vote for Qvist and I had a chance of going either way.

Crafty answer: because after stating that he would vote Qvist - being left alive would make him think that Qvist was town.

[Captain_Frisk]

The whole problem with this damn game is that Qvist was crazy tunnelling me day 1 and day 2, and mysteriously backed off on day 3 - well in advance of volt's plan.

[Voltgloss]

Either the Asher + Qvist newbie scum pair did something crazy (letting the cop activate)

I still don't think they thought this was so crazy.  Remember, ash loves breadcrumbs.  This is the guy who breadcrumbed VT as scum.  Of course he's going to be looking out for other power roles to breadcrumb - and Eevee's behavior Day 2 could easily be construed as breadcrumbing Cop.

And if they concluded that, they'd expect the Doctor to think the same; and then they HAVE to switch off the Doc and try to kill the suspected Cop, otherwise they're ALREADY doomed via Follow-the-Cop.

[Voltgloss]

The whole problem with this damn game is that Qvist was crazy tunnelling me day 1 and day 2, and mysteriously backed off on day 3 - well in advance of volt's plan.

This is explained equally well by "Cop Switch Qvist was setting up to fakeclaim Cop" as it is by "Qvist is actually the Cop." 

[Voltgloss]

Either the Asher + Qvist newbie scum pair did something crazy (letting the cop activate)

I still don't think they thought this was so crazy.  Remember, ash loves breadcrumbs.  This is the guy who breadcrumbed VT as scum.  Of course he's going to be looking out for other power roles to breadcrumb - and Eevee's behavior Day 2 could easily be construed as breadcrumbing Cop.

And if they concluded that, they'd expect the Doctor to think the same; and then they HAVE to switch off the Doc and try to kill the suspected Cop, otherwise they're ALREADY doomed via Follow-the-Cop.

Actually, wait, this doesn't explain why they simply didn't kill Munch (who was the clear frontrunner for being Doctor) and switch off the Cop.  Hmm.

[Captain_Frisk]

The whole problem with this damn game is that Qvist was crazy tunnelling me day 1 and day 2, and mysteriously backed off on day 3 - well in advance of volt's plan.

This is explained equally well by "Cop Switch Qvist was setting up to fakeclaim Cop" as it is by "Qvist is actually the Cop."

Why not just fake claim cop and say you were blocked?

[Insomniac]

I confirm that NO ONE has any information about the setup EXCEPT myself. I have NO mods, nor have I ever. I have had assistance from people not knowing the setup with locking the thread.

Had anyone known the setup they would never have been allowed to place in

[Captain_Frisk]

Either the Asher + Qvist newbie scum pair did something crazy (letting the cop activate)

I still don't think they thought this was so crazy.  Remember, ash loves breadcrumbs.  This is the guy who breadcrumbed VT as scum.  Of course he's going to be looking out for other power roles to breadcrumb - and Eevee's behavior Day 2 could easily be construed as breadcrumbing Cop.

And if they concluded that, they'd expect the Doctor to think the same; and then they HAVE to switch off the Doc and try to kill the suspected Cop, otherwise they're ALREADY doomed via Follow-the-Cop.

Actually, wait, this doesn't explain why they simply didn't kill Munch (who was the clear frontrunner for being Doctor) and switch off the Cop.  Hmm.

Also - qvist was willing to scumbus his buddy when he easily could have just insisted on lynching you because he "knows" your scum.

You however....

[Captain_Frisk]

I confirm that NO ONE has any information about the setup EXCEPT myself. I have NO mods, nor have I ever. I have had assistance from people not knowing the setup with locking the thread.

Had anyone known the setup they would never have been allowed to place in

Thanks

[Voltgloss]

The whole problem with this damn game is that Qvist was crazy tunnelling me day 1 and day 2, and mysteriously backed off on day 3 - well in advance of volt's plan.

This is explained equally well by "Cop Switch Qvist was setting up to fakeclaim Cop" as it is by "Qvist is actually the Cop."

Why not just fake claim cop and say you were blocked?

A few possible reasons:

1) Having a result makes the claim more "verifiable" (a "blocked Cop" fakeclaim is as unverifiable as a Doctor fakeclaim), especially in contrast to a claim that Qvist knew was going to be backed up with a result.
 
2) Claiming to have confirmed Player X as Town could get that player to support you in the "which Cop is real" debate.

3) Claiming to have confirmed Player X as Town could throw suspicion on Player X when you flip scum.

4) In the interest of "lying as little as possible," Qvist knew the Cop wasn't turned off - and so claimed based on that information.

I recall that scum!ash had some comment about the whole "both Cops claim they got results" thing almost immediately in response.  I'll go dig that up.

[Voltgloss]

Also - qvist was willing to scumbus his buddy when he easily could have just insisted on lynching you because he "knows" your scum.

You however....

If Qvist were the real Cop, he could not know for sure whether yuma or ash was scum.  (As I could not.)  So his putting ash at L-1, with my vote able to hammer, risked letting the game end in a scum win if the scumteam was me-yuma.

Would a town Cop risk letting scum do that? 

[Voltgloss]

This is ash's response to our dueling claims.

Given this is all huge, I do have to say that since both of you claim to have gotten a result, my big reason for wanting to not believe Qvist just went away.  Plus, awfully easy for the second claimer to match the first (since Qvist "risked" lying with the result claim first)....man, this is tough.

PPE--And you claim to have targeted the same person!  The claims are exact...

[Voltgloss]

Gonna be away from the thread for an hour or two.

[Captain_Frisk]

I hate knowing that if if I vote if I vote for Qvist - Volt wins either way. 

[Captain_Frisk]

Here's my problem volt:

As scum - qvist could simply not contest your claim.  At night - switch off the doctor, kill you, and everyone is happy.

[Voltgloss]

Here's my problem volt:

As scum - qvist could simply not contest your claim.  At night - switch off the doctor, kill you, and everyone is happy.

Not if I was about to out him or his partner as scum.  Lynch one scum Day 3, and they can't switch off the doctor while also nightkilling.

By claiming my role WITHOUT revealing my investigation result, I forced scum to choose between "do I fakeclaim and create a him-or-me situation" and "do I not fakeclaim, knowing that if he investigated me or my partner, we will lose if I don't fakeclaim."

[Voltgloss]

I hate knowing that if if I vote if I vote for Qvist - Volt wins either way.

...wow, seriously?  Have I played in some way that makes you want me to lose the game, no matter what my alignment?

[Captain_Frisk]

I hate knowing that if if I vote if I vote for Qvist - Volt wins either way.

...wow, seriously?  Have I played in some way that makes you want me to lose the game, no matter what my alignment?

Well, of course I can guarantee your loss as well

The issue is that I can't differentiate your motivation in explaining why qvist must be scum. 

[Voltgloss]

The issue is that I can't differentiate your motivation in explaining why qvist must be scum.

I'm not sure I follow this.  Qvist and I have the same motivation in explaining why the other is scum:  in order for either of us to win, we have to convince you to vote the other guy.

The fact that one of us (me) is town and the other of us (Qvist) is scum doesn't change our motivations.  Our motivation, either way, is to win; and in Lylo with an IC, the only way for us to win is to convince that IC.

[Voltgloss]

Crafty scum voltgloss (and member of my scummy 5!) let the cop through with the nefarious goal of outing the PRs so that they wouldn't have to have switch craziness for the rest of the game.

Frisk, if I were scum and planning to draw out the Cop with a fakeclaim on Day 3 - what do I gain by letting the Cop investigate? 

[Captain_Frisk]

I'd just go back and copy / paste whatever you said about why QVist would let you investigate.

[Voltgloss]

I'd just go back and copy / paste whatever you said about why QVist would let you investigate.

You think I, as scum, would prefer to gamble on Eevee being the Cop rather than switching off the Cop and killing almost-certainly-the-Doctor Munch?

I mean, yes, scum did that.  And from where you sit, that's explainable as either newbie scum Qvist making a mistake, or crafty scum Volt purposely making a "mistake" that you wouldn't think Volt would make.  So I guess this has to be a null point in your analysis.

Which is why I ask you to look at ash's and joth's behavior instead.  Any explanation I give for my own behavior can be met with the "well maybe you did the opposite of what I'd expect because you're crafty" response.  I mean, look, how can I respond to that?  I try to be crafty, I admit it!  I'm crafty regardless of my alignment!   

So look at joth and ash instead.  Does their behavior fit as scumpartners with Qvist, or as scumpartners with me? 

In particular:  Do you think that, if I were scum, joth and ash would have bandwagoned immediately on the yumawagon that I proposed at the start of Day 2, given that we would have had no opportunity to plan such a stratagem ahead of time?

Or do you think it more likely that scum!joth and scum!ash joined a plausible case I started, scum!Qvist expressed reluctance because he was scared to scumhammer a wagon with all of his scumbuddies on it, and then was stuck at being unable to finish the job when all the other townies balked?

[Qvist]

Now it seems that all is in your hands CF.
Another time the hammer was while I was just going offline. No chance to say something, man.
But you made the right decision, CF.

And Voltgloss hesitance to hammer his fellow scum was so obvious.
Please make the right decision.

Vote: Voltgloss

[Qvist]

So - why was Yuma killed? 

Simple answer: because he was going to vote for Qvist and I had a chance of going either way.

Crafty answer: because after stating that he would vote Qvist - being left alive would make him think that Qvist was town.

That what I'm asking myself currently. I mean, yeah, yuma would have probably voted for me. All in all it's still a WIFOM decision, right?

[Qvist]

Also - qvist was willing to scumbus his buddy when he easily could have just insisted on lynching you because he "knows" your scum.

You however....

If Qvist were the real Cop, he could not know for sure whether yuma or ash was scum.  (As I could not.)  So his putting ash at L-1, with my vote able to hammer, risked letting the game end in a scum win if the scumteam was me-yuma.

Would a town Cop risk letting scum do that?

No I didn't know that for 100% sure. But there are only 2 possibilities and the other constellation made no sense. A scum pair of yuma and you really made no sense after the whole bandwagon on yuma which nearly ended in a lynch.

[Captain_Frisk]

Volt - what are your thoughts on RobZ's new LaLL theory?

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - it doesn't even look like you're trying.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well Grujah is the lurker leader, but to be honest he's only marginally leading in front of a 3-way tie. ashersky, Qvist, TheMunch, get in here! Meantime, Vote: Grujah

For the spectators out there - since I don't really need to talk to anyone in thread anymore.

[Captain_Frisk]

unvote. Voltgloss will save us from the lurkerverse.

yuma, eagerly awaiting your defense.

[Captain_Frisk]

My vote isn't leaving CF until I am convinced he is not scum.

[Captain_Frisk]

Like I said before, you are wrong and it would be anti-town if I explained my reasons.

Let's focus on finding scum.

And by that I mean let's lynch CF.

[Captain_Frisk]

The previous 2 posts clearly point out why sheeping dead townies reads is dangerous.

[Qvist]

Qvist - it doesn't even look like you're trying.

What do you mean? I said everything I noticed about the Voltgloss/ashersky scum pair you should consider in your vote. And I don't think that pushing hard is going to achieve anything now. The situation is similar to the last day. The arguments are basically the same. The only new points to consider is "Why was yuma killed and not you?" and the behaviour yesterday before the ashersky lynch. The first point really can't be answered because it's WIFOM and the second point is obvious, to me at least. Hopefully for you too...

Haven't you build your opinion already? If yes, cast your vote. If not, what do you want to hear from me? What proof do you want from me that I'm telling the truth?

[Captain_Frisk]

Qvist - it doesn't even look like you're trying.

What do you mean? I said everything I noticed about the Voltgloss/ashersky scum pair you should consider in your vote. And I don't think that pushing hard is going to achieve anything now. The situation is similar to the last day. The arguments are basically the same. The only new points to consider is "Why was yuma killed and not you?" and the behaviour yesterday before the ashersky lynch. The first point really can't be answered because it's WIFOM and the second point is obvious, to me at least. Hopefully for you too...

Haven't you build your opinion already? If yes, cast your vote. If not, what do you want to hear from me? What proof do you want from me that I'm telling the truth?

Point me to an interaction between Volt and Asher / Joth that you find scummy.  Point me to an interaction between you and asher / joth that clears you.

Volt right now has a compelling point that the yuma wagon was Volt + Asher + Joth... would a scum trio jump on a wagon 1,2,3?

[Captain_Frisk]

Also - i AM EXTREMELY angry with Grujah right now for lurking and placing out, because Volt has basically 0 day 1 history.

[Voltgloss]

Volt - what are your thoughts on RobZ's new LaLL theory?

I think it's a good theory, especially Day 1/Day 2.

I'm well aware that my predecessor Grujah lurked most of all Day 1.  Based on his last post in the thread about computer problems, followed by his vanishing from the forums for an extended period of time, I think his lurking was due to out-of-game issues over which he had no control.  Especially after being lynched for lurking as scum in M-XI, and for being a very publicized scumlurker in M-XII, I would not expect scum!Grujah to massively lurk in a new game if he could at all help it.  Grujah, of all people, would be sensitive to LaLL before LaLL was even a thing.

If I recall correctly, Qvist's post count Day 1 was also in the low ranges compared to most of the town.  I know joth was active, engaging with Galz.  I don't remember where ash fell.

I have not checked the numbers, but I think my and Qvist's total post counts during Day 2 were roughly equivalent.

I think the first quote of joth's you posted is him telling his scummates to stop lurking.  I don't know that that helps you though, since he lists ash, Qvist, and my predecessor in there. 

PPE:  A bunch.  But, to your last post Frisk:  I really think Grujah had no control over his Day 1 lurk.  He vanished utterly from the forums and only just recently came back.

[Captain_Frisk]

I don't know that that helps you though, since he lists ash, Qvist, and my predecessor in there. 

Exacto.  V. frustrating.

[Captain_Frisk]

PPE:  A bunch.  But, to your last post Frisk:  I really think Grujah had no control over his Day 1 lurk.  He vanished utterly from the forums and only just recently came back.

PPE a bunch?  How long did it take you to write this?

[Captain_Frisk]

Occam's razor:

Vote: Qvist

Sorry.

[Insomniac]

THREAD LOCKED

[Captain_Frisk]

Unvote

[Captain_Frisk]

(Kidding)

[Insomniac]

Voltgloss continued their 3 day long shouting match each one pointing a gun at the other. Frisk looked at Qvist, back to Volt, back to Qvist. A grin creeped across Frisk's face. You FOOLS your BOTH cops! He shouted I'm the last scum...well Ok thats not true, with that Frisk shot Qvist. Searching his body they found the Cop switch, making for a total of all 6 switches found.

Qvist The Mafia Cop Switch has been lynched

As the duo walked to the center of the resort, Insomniac was waking up, "Ugh, my head he groaned" looking around at all the corpses he added "what the hell happened?"

"You're alive?" Frisk asked bewildered.

"Yea I think there must have been some rufilin in my drink that night" Insomniac stated

"Well..Uhmmm...alot of people died while you were 'asleep'" Volt replied

"How do we get out of here?" Frisk added

"Well uhh I have 14 return trip tickets for you guys so here you go" Insomniac said as he passed over the return trip tickets, then added, "seems like nobody can get you guys together without you killing each other, bummer"

GAME OVER TOWN WINS

Thread unlocked please feel free to discuss

[Captain_Frisk]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

[ashersky]

I'll lodge my official complaint now, regarding yuma's derphammering of me.  Being right was no excuse, given it was only time zone issues that didn't allow me to post final thoughts.

Congrats town, though, for defeating us fairly easily.

[ashersky]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

For winning?

[Captain_Frisk]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

For winning?

I never want to be an IC again.

[Cuzz]

Insom/yuma, do me and Robz get a win for this?

[Captain_Frisk]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

For winning?

I never want to be an IC again.

I can just feel the gaze of the spectator thread calling me a moron. 

[Qvist]

Haha, well done CF. What was the key factor voting on me? Grats.

Sorry ashersky for voting on you. It was the only hope I saw.

[Insomniac]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

Why? You won!


Speccy QT 1: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/2QRig2JBQFz
Speccy QT 2: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/rcvNbthQLgj
Mafia QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/ThQie8iErcPdk
Mod QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/wGHNKcg5asKit
Serial Killer QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/vrXQ3VmH79aG

[Captain_Frisk]

Insom/yuma, do me and Robz get a win for this?

All members of town do.  I think this is the first game that I've been alive at the end?

[Captain_Frisk]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

Why? You won!

I really wanted to vote for voltgloss.

[Insomniac]

Insom/yuma, do me and Robz get a win for this?

IMO: YES

[Voltgloss]

THANK GOD

Qvist, I salute you.  It was an epic battle.

Frisk, I knew making you IC was the right call, even if you thought it was incredibly scummy of me to investigate you 

Speccy thread!  Speccy thread!  Speccy thread!  I hear there was betting!  I want to seeeeeeee!!

[Voltgloss]

Post-post edit:  QT links!  I'mma goin' there now!

[Axxle]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

Why? You won!

I really wanted to vote for voltgloss.

I did too in life, but yesterday's votes were actually really telling on who was mafia and who wasn't, since a stray town vote would have cause scum to quick hammer.

[ashersky]

Had we won, Qvist would have been the mega-MVP of forever.  He really kept it up in some tough situations.

I could have just as easily been town and you all still would have killed me, I'm convinced.

[Insomniac]

Now I have 3 people I want to nominate for MVP I'd like the players to decide

Voltgloss: For winning the cop battle
Captain_Frisk: For getting it right
Eevee: For calling and insistently pushing the scum TRIO on DAY TWO

[Voltgloss]

Sorry ashersky for voting on you. It was the only hope I saw.

That was totally the right move, Qvist.  It put me in a catch-22.  No matter what I did you could argue it was scummy the following day.

[Voltgloss]

Insom/yuma, do me and Robz get a win for this?

All members of town do.  I think this is the first game that I've been alive at the end?

And it's my first win as Town, ever!  (outside of bastard games)

[Insomniac]

Also ROBZ you lose the bet, eHunt is better than you at mafia

[Captain_Frisk]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

Why? You won!

I really wanted to vote for voltgloss.

I did too in life, but yesterday's votes were actually really telling on who was mafia and who wasn't, since a stray town vote would have cause scum to quick hammer.

For me - i kindof felt that if it was Volt / Yuma - then i could believe the crazy claim mastermind behavior.... but when that was eliminated, then it made me think that letting a cop investigation go was just probably newscum.

Volt - you have to understand that you investigating me after QVist already claimed to have gotten me was super scummy (from my perspective).

Qvist - I look forward to understanding why you decided to claim.  I totally believed it...

[Cuzz]

Insom/yuma, do me and Robz get a win for this?

IMO: YES

Woohoo! I won without a single post. Clearly not shooting N0 sealed it for town. You're welcome.

[Voltgloss]

Now I have 3 people I want to nominate for MVP I'd like the players to decide

Voltgloss: For winning the cop battle
Captain_Frisk: For getting it right
Eevee: For calling and insistently pushing the scum TRIO on DAY TWO

If Eevee intentionally breadcrumbed Cop, and if scum fell for it, Eevee for sure.
I haven't read the QTs yet and am excited to see if my theory was at all right!

[ashersky]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

Why? You won!

I really wanted to vote for voltgloss.

I did too in life, but yesterday's votes were actually really telling on who was mafia and who wasn't, since a stray town vote would have cause scum to quick hammer.

For me - i kindof felt that if it was Volt / Yuma - then i could believe the crazy claim mastermind behavior.... but when that was eliminated, then it made me think that letting a cop investigation go was just probably newscum.

Volt - you have to understand that you investigating me after QVist already claimed to have gotten me was super scummy (from my perspective).

Qvist - I look forward to understanding why you decided to claim.  I totally believed it...

Qvist is newscum, but I'm just badscum.

I will maintain that letting the cop investigation go to ensure a kill was important.  If we don't get a kill that night, we lose 100% of the time.  The only time I would have no-killed in favor of blocking cop would have been last night.

[Insomniac]

Now I have 3 people I want to nominate for MVP I'd like the players to decide

Voltgloss: For winning the cop battle
Captain_Frisk: For getting it right
Eevee: For calling and insistently pushing the scum TRIO on DAY TWO

If Eevee intentionally breadcrumbed Cop, and if scum fell for it, Eevee for sure.
I haven't read the QTs yet and am excited to see if my theory was at all right!

To my knowledge he did not breadcrumb cop intentionally.

[Voltgloss]

Volt - you have to understand that you investigating me after QVist already claimed to have gotten me was super scummy (from my perspective).

This brings up an excellent question:  Was my approach - using the approach O suggested in the Hydra game - the right call? 

I still think it was, even if it made my job harder, because it forced Mafia into fakeclaiming with incomplete information.

Gotta stop posting and go read QT's!

[Insomniac]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

Why? You won!

I really wanted to vote for voltgloss.

I did too in life, but yesterday's votes were actually really telling on who was mafia and who wasn't, since a stray town vote would have cause scum to quick hammer.

For me - i kindof felt that if it was Volt / Yuma - then i could believe the crazy claim mastermind behavior.... but when that was eliminated, then it made me think that letting a cop investigation go was just probably newscum.

Volt - you have to understand that you investigating me after QVist already claimed to have gotten me was super scummy (from my perspective).

Qvist - I look forward to understanding why you decided to claim.  I totally believed it...

Qvist is newscum, but I'm just badscum.

I will maintain that letting the cop investigation go to ensure a kill was important.  If we don't get a kill that night, we lose 100% of the time.  The only time I would have no-killed in favor of blocking cop would have been last night.

Uhh you could have let the doctor go through and shot someone.

[ashersky]

Ugggh i feel sick to my stomach.

Why? You won!

I really wanted to vote for voltgloss.

I did too in life, but yesterday's votes were actually really telling on who was mafia and who wasn't, since a stray town vote would have cause scum to quick hammer.

For me - i kindof felt that if it was Volt / Yuma - then i could believe the crazy claim mastermind behavior.... but when that was eliminated, then it made me think that letting a cop investigation go was just probably newscum.

Volt - you have to understand that you investigating me after QVist already claimed to have gotten me was super scummy (from my perspective).

Qvist - I look forward to understanding why you decided to claim.  I totally believed it...

Qvist is newscum, but I'm just badscum.

I will maintain that letting the cop investigation go to ensure a kill was important.  If we don't get a kill that night, we lose 100% of the time.  The only time I would have no-killed in favor of blocking cop would have been last night.

Uhh you could have let the doctor go through and shot someone.

And if we shot the doctored player, we miss.  At that point, it was 2 v 6 (I think), so we had a 1 in 5 chance of missing.  20% chance to lose the game for sure just seemed to high to me.  Counterclaiming cop was 100% sure to result in an extra day and a cop kill (and awesome).

[Qvist]

Qvist - I look forward to understanding why you decided to claim.  I totally believed it...

2 points: Voltgloss was right that I feared that he knew that I was scum because the way he tunneled me from the start of day 3 AND
I knew I had to stop tunneling on you because of the interactions after day 2. But I had no idea how I could make that believable to everybody. I saw that as a way to change that.

[ashersky]

Qvist - I look forward to understanding why you decided to claim.  I totally believed it...

2 points: Voltgloss was right that I feared that he knew that I was scum because the way he tunneled me from the start of day 3 AND
I knew I had to stop tunneling on you because of the interactions after day 2. But I had no idea how I could make that believable to everybody. I saw that as a way to change that.

I will say again, I thought Qvist was amazing the last few days.  Our downfall was really losing the only experienced player on our team.  A note for all you out there -- see?  Town or scum, I read the exact same, and its terrible.  I was only scum in one other game and only lived for a day.

[ashersky]

Well, at least Robz believed me.

[Insomniac]

IF Frisk had voted Volt Qvist would have been MVP hands down.

[jotheonah]

I'll lodge my official complaint now, regarding yuma's derphammering of me.  Being right was no excuse, given it was only time zone issues that didn't allow me to post final thoughts.

Congrats town, though, for defeating us fairly easily.

Get in line! Derphammers were definitely a fine and useful tool for town this game. *eyeroll*

[Insomniac]

BTW ash what was this then

Sorry, I just updated Pandemic, but I won't be able to post much here now. Just a few notes.

I really don't know what to think about TheMunch, was it just a horrible town mistake which indeed got lucky hitting the right one? It seems so, but then why didn't he get nightkilled?
And I was willing to hammer him, but after the claim I wanted to check first if joth's claim could made sense. Maybe someone counterclaims. And TheMunch hammered him before I could check anything. I don't know why this looks scummy to you all.

Either way, I have to rethink my suspects. I will post tommorow.

Qvist's first post of D3. Bolded for emphasis. Could mean something.

--ITT One scum finds a breadcrumb for the other...facepalm

[Captain_Frisk]

I'll lodge my official complaint now, regarding yuma's derphammering of me.  Being right was no excuse, given it was only time zone issues that didn't allow me to post final thoughts.

Congrats town, though, for defeating us fairly easily.

Get in line! Derphammers were definitely a fine and useful tool for town this game. *eyeroll*

What made it fine and useful is that the munch is so crazy that nobody thought he could be the doctor.

[ashersky]

BTW ash what was this then

Sorry, I just updated Pandemic, but I won't be able to post much here now. Just a few notes.

I really don't know what to think about TheMunch, was it just a horrible town mistake which indeed got lucky hitting the right one? It seems so, but then why didn't he get nightkilled?
And I was willing to hammer him, but after the claim I wanted to check first if joth's claim could made sense. Maybe someone counterclaims. And TheMunch hammered him before I could check anything. I don't know why this looks scummy to you all.

Either way, I have to rethink my suspects. I will post tommorow.

Qvist's first post of D3. Bolded for emphasis. Could mean something.

--ITT One scum finds a breadcrumb for the other...facepalm

Qvist wasn't online, so he couldn't re-post it.

I would have done this as town, trying to figure out which cop was telling the truth.  Here was evidence in Q's favor.

[Captain_Frisk]

I love how the scum QT indicates that both Qvist and asher felt like they were totally pinned against the wall and were going to lose, when I felt like i had to make 2 consecutive correct decisions...

Everyone feeling doomed.

[Cuzz]

Hey why'd you jerks kill me anyway?

[ashersky]

I think we really needed to lynch yuma D2.  That was the original fail that lost it all for us.

PPE -- Cuzz, random.org.

[Insomniac]

Hey why'd you jerks kill me anyway?

Random Number Generator

[shraeye]

I'll lodge my official complaint now, regarding yuma's derphammering of me.  Being right was no excuse, given it was only time zone issues that didn't allow me to post final thoughts.

Congrats town, though, for defeating us fairly easily.

Get in line! Derphammers were definitely a fine and useful tool for town this game. *eyeroll*

What made it fine and useful is that the munch is so crazy that nobody thought he could be the doctor.

I just read this to Munch, we both burst out laughing.

[Qvist]

One thing I'm still questioning. Should I have hammered yuma? I thought this would give me some credibility. But then everyone saw that as scum tell. I was a little bit confused...

[ashersky]

One thing I'm still questioning. Should I have hammered yuma? I thought this would give me some credibility. But then everyone saw that as scum tell. I was a little bit confused...

I really wanted you to, yes.

[TheMunch]

I thought me hammering joth made me conf!doc.  I was very wrong.

[Cuzz]

Hey why'd you jerks kill me anyway?

Random Number Generator

Or so joth said...

[Voltgloss]

Y'know, I saw the fact that joth claimed to have doctored "Volt" when he fakeclaimed, and then promptly forgot about presenting that as a piece of evidence when the whole Cop-v.-FakeCop battle was joined.

[Axxle]

IF Frisk had voted Volt Qvist would have been MVP hands down.

I think Qvist should be MVP even though he lost.

[Captain_Frisk]

I thought me hammering joth made me conf!doc.  I was very wrong.

I'm sorry for getting you killed.  I actually really did think that Axxle was scum though.

[Voltgloss]

ehunt is my hero in the spec QT.

[Captain_Frisk]

Love the signature bet!

[Qvist]

BTW: I didn't lie a bit about the "45min replying to cop claim thing" I didn't replied that long. I clicked on reply, made some comments about other's comments and then came Volt's claim. I thought about this not very long, maybe 5min. It made me very angry if this would have cost me the game.

[Captain_Frisk]

BTW: I didn't lie a bit about the "45min replying to cop claim thing" I didn't replied that long. I clicked on reply, made some comments about other's comments and then came Volt's claim. I thought about this not very long, maybe 5min. It made me very angry if this would have cost me the game.

One of the things that convinced me was the naming of Volt's image.  He named it qvist_caught3.png or something...

When he and I hydrabuddies - he caught the munch posting as himself.... and he named the file that he posted "themunch_caught.png"... That just seemed like an attention to detail that didn't fit scum.

[Captain_Frisk]

Should we talk about the who's online page?

Personally - i feel like its legit.  If we were playing mafia f2f, you'd absolutely know who was in the room with you listening.

[Qvist]

I don't like that a reasoning. I mean he was right in me being scum, but in the end it wasn't true.
Another thing that annoyed me was the time difference. Every lynch (of most of them) was while I was sleeping. That was a big disadvantage for me.

[Captain_Frisk]

I don't like that a reasoning. I mean he was right in me being scum, but in the end it wasn't true.
Another thing that annoyed me was the time difference. Every lynch (of most of them) was while I was sleeping. That was a big disadvantage for me.

The timezone thing is a problem, and I have no idea how to address that.

[Axxle]

Should we talk about the who's online page?

Personally - i feel like its legit.  If we were playing mafia f2f, you'd absolutely know who was in the room with you listening.

I don't see a fundamental reason why you can't use it, but way way way too much weight is put into it.  It's a null tell in my mind.

[ashersky]

I don't like that a reasoning. I mean he was right in me being scum, but in the end it wasn't true.
Another thing that annoyed me was the time difference. Every lynch (of most of them) was while I was sleeping. That was a big disadvantage for me.

The timezone thing is a problem, and I have no idea how to address that.

*Looks around at koalas and kangaroos...knows the future being 16 hours ahead of forum time...*

[Qvist]

Haha, I can't await to see Robz new signature either. I deluded at least Robz and Axxle regarding to the QTs. Nice.

[Captain_Frisk]

Should we talk about the who's online page?

Personally - i feel like its legit.  If we were playing mafia f2f, you'd absolutely know who was in the room with you listening.

I don't see a fundamental reason why you can't use it, but way way way too much weight is put into it.  It's a null tell in my mind.

I didn't actually put alot of weight on it... more volt's reaction than the actual time. 

It did bust RobZ though, he's still pissed i think.

[Captain_Frisk]

Haha, I can't await to see Robz new signature either. I deluded at least Robz and Axxle regarding to the QTs. Nice.

I promise QVist, I really really wanted to vote voltgloss.

[Qvist]

Oh man, so why didn't you!?

[Captain_Frisk]

Haha, I can't await to see Robz new signature either. I deluded at least Robz and Axxle regarding to the QTs. Nice.

I promise QVist, I really really wanted to vote voltgloss.

In my head, Volt + Axxle is still a thing!

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh man, so why didn't you!?

The problem was leaving the cop switch on.  Personally, I think this was a huge mistake.  I could believe that you and asher might do this (you are new, and while asher is much improved than his first game, he's still on the newer side). 

If Volt did it, it would have had to have been a crazy mafia masterplay - which I really didn't think was necessary given the game state - and so far as much as we like to think that mafia have all the power, they are often just as stressed out and crazy as the townies.

So - i either had to go with newer players making a mistake... or super complicated play from Volt, and I am always wrong when I think that someone is doing something fancy.

[Voltgloss]

It did bust RobZ though, he's still pissed i think.

I don't know that Robz has seen these results yet, he's V/LA/on-the-road today.

[Insomniac]

Oh man, so why didn't you!?

The problem was leaving the cop switch on.  Personally, I think this was a huge mistake.  I could believe that you and asher might do this (you are new, and while asher is much improved than his first game, he's still on the newer side). 

If Volt did it, it would have had to have been a crazy mafia masterplay - which I really didn't think was necessary given the game state - and so far as much as we like to think that mafia have all the power, they are often just as stressed out and crazy as the townies.

So - i either had to go with newer players making a mistake... or super complicated play from Volt, and I am always wrong when I think that someone is doing something fancy.

I'd like to refer you to the time I did the spin-o-rama backhanded shot in OT to win MXII

[Insomniac]

I also really liked this setup and the fact that the town came back from an early 2 punch that should have sealed the deal.

1)Losing the vig night 1, gave mafia full control over how they wanted to flip switches
2)Lynching the serial killer eliminated the WIFOM between SK and Mafia

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh man, so why didn't you!?

The problem was leaving the cop switch on.  Personally, I think this was a huge mistake.  I could believe that you and asher might do this (you are new, and while asher is much improved than his first game, he's still on the newer side). 

If Volt did it, it would have had to have been a crazy mafia masterplay - which I really didn't think was necessary given the game state - and so far as much as we like to think that mafia have all the power, they are often just as stressed out and crazy as the townies.

So - i either had to go with newer players making a mistake... or super complicated play from Volt, and I am always wrong when I think that someone is doing something fancy.

I'd like to refer you to the time I did the spin-o-rama backhanded shot in OT to win MXII

That game never happened as far as I'm concerned.

[ashersky]

I also really liked this setup and the fact that the town came back from an early 2 punch that should have sealed the deal.

1)Losing the vig night 1, gave mafia full control over how they wanted to flip switches
2)Lynching the serial killer eliminated the WIFOM between SK and Mafia

I liked the setup, too, but disagree with your take.  I think it favors town a lot, since it forces wifom decisions onto mafia.  Plus, once you lose a switch, it's basically game over, as seen here.

[Cuzz]

Oh man, so why didn't you!?

The problem was leaving the cop switch on.  Personally, I think this was a huge mistake.  I could believe that you and asher might do this (you are new, and while asher is much improved than his first game, he's still on the newer side). 

If Volt did it, it would have had to have been a crazy mafia masterplay - which I really didn't think was necessary given the game state - and so far as much as we like to think that mafia have all the power, they are often just as stressed out and crazy as the townies.

So - i either had to go with newer players making a mistake... or super complicated play from Volt, and I am always wrong when I think that someone is doing something fancy.

I'd like to refer you to the time I did the spin-o-rama backhanded shot in OT to win MXII

That game never happened as far as I'm concerned.

+XII

[Insomniac]

I also really liked this setup and the fact that the town came back from an early 2 punch that should have sealed the deal.

1)Losing the vig night 1, gave mafia full control over how they wanted to flip switches
2)Lynching the serial killer eliminated the WIFOM between SK and Mafia

I liked the setup, too, but disagree with your take.  I think it favors town a lot, since it forces wifom decisions onto mafia.  Plus, once you lose a switch, it's basically game over, as seen here.

Mafiascum's sample games show the SK lynch early to imply a town loss

[Insomniac]

Oh man, so why didn't you!?

The problem was leaving the cop switch on.  Personally, I think this was a huge mistake.  I could believe that you and asher might do this (you are new, and while asher is much improved than his first game, he's still on the newer side). 

If Volt did it, it would have had to have been a crazy mafia masterplay - which I really didn't think was necessary given the game state - and so far as much as we like to think that mafia have all the power, they are often just as stressed out and crazy as the townies.

So - i either had to go with newer players making a mistake... or super complicated play from Volt, and I am always wrong when I think that someone is doing something fancy.

I'd like to refer you to the time I did the spin-o-rama backhanded shot in OT to win MXII

That game never happened as far as I'm concerned.

+XII

Oh shush you loved it! You wouldn't get to hate on Robz in RVS every game without it

[Captain_Frisk]

I also really liked this setup and the fact that the town came back from an early 2 punch that should have sealed the deal.

1)Losing the vig night 1, gave mafia full control over how they wanted to flip switches
2)Lynching the serial killer eliminated the WIFOM between SK and Mafia

I liked the setup, too, but disagree with your take.  I think it favors town a lot, since it forces wifom decisions onto mafia.  Plus, once you lose a switch, it's basically game over, as seen here.

Mafiascum's sample games show the SK lynch early to imply a town loss

+1 - I fully expected that this game was OVER after N0 and D1

[Cuzz]

Oh man, so why didn't you!?

The problem was leaving the cop switch on.  Personally, I think this was a huge mistake.  I could believe that you and asher might do this (you are new, and while asher is much improved than his first game, he's still on the newer side). 

If Volt did it, it would have had to have been a crazy mafia masterplay - which I really didn't think was necessary given the game state - and so far as much as we like to think that mafia have all the power, they are often just as stressed out and crazy as the townies.

So - i either had to go with newer players making a mistake... or super complicated play from Volt, and I am always wrong when I think that someone is doing something fancy.

I'd like to refer you to the time I did the spin-o-rama backhanded shot in OT to win MXII

That game never happened as far as I'm concerned.

+XII

Oh shush you loved it! You wouldn't get to hate on Robz in RVS every game without it

I do love Robz Voting Stage...

[ehunt]

Volt I think I sold you out at some point in the qt.

[Eevee]

Town fought back, yay!

Eevee: For calling and insistently pushing the scum TRIO on DAY TWO

I didn't intentionally breadcrumb cop, no. I do think this was the greatest performance I've ever given as a VT! Good game everyone, thanks for modding once again Insomniac.

[jotheonah]

No offense to my partners, who got very close to a win and had some brilliant gambits, but we weren't a great scum team. Eevee in particular had us pegged day one I think.

[Qvist]

No offense to my partners, who got very close to a win and had some brilliant gambits, but we weren't a great scum team. Eevee in particular had us pegged day one I think.

Yeah, we made some crucial errors. Kudos to Eevee for a great read.

[jotheonah]

It was fun to be scum though! I've been wanting to since I first started here, and now I finally have! Now I can quit mafia forever.








j/k i love you guys

[yuma]

Really happy about this win guys.

It wasn't my best game ever, but I do think I played pretty well at times despite some pretty obvious setbacks. Couple of points from me:

1. I didn't mention this in thread because I felt it would complicate everything, but MXIV had a very significant impact behind my vote on Galz. If you remember, I was scum there, and that game had a huge amount of self votes that appeared to be frustrating for a town member. In my attempt to think like a town member for that game I had become so anti-self voting that it was just an automatic reaction to Galz. And one that while it did hurt the town was still in my opinion the correct call--see the next subpoint for reference.

1. oh and ash, I was mad at you... I kinda still am. That is why I voted for you without waiting for your reply. I honestly didn't know I had hammered you--because I didn't check. But if I had checked I still would have. Waiting for you to say something that might convince the others to switch to me would just be dumb play when I knew you were scum 100%.... So yeah. If I know something I am not going to give you a chance to talk your way out of it. Ever. Sorry if that isn't courteous, but hey, I play to win.

2. Day 2 was really frustrating for me. I had a case on me that was huge and it wouldn't go away. Everything I did or said was disputed and thrown back as scummy at me--especially by TheMunch (man, your reads were bad this game man). And at one point a self vote out of frustration was on my mind and very tempting... But I didn't. I didn't self vote because it would be detrimental to town. Self voting to me is always detrimental to town and honestly it is going to be an almost automatic vote when I see it. Not always, but almost always.

3. I was right about ash day 1. I feel happy about that. Qvist day 2. I also feel happy about that. and my switch to joth late day 2.... was really just me flying by the seat of my pants and trusting eevee. Eevee is my vote for MVP, although Frisk certainly rocked it as well.

Really fun game and I am glad we pulled it off...

[ashersky]

1. oh and ash, I was mad at you... I kinda still am. That is why I voted for you without waiting for your reply. I honestly didn't know I had hammered you--because I didn't check. But if I had checked I still would have. Waiting for you to say something that might convince the others to switch to me would just be dumb play when I knew you were scum 100%.... So yeah. If I know something I am not going to give you a chance to talk your way out of it. Ever. Sorry if that isn't courteous, but hey, I play to win.

You shouldn't be mad at me for trying to get your killed or calling you a lying scum--that's just the game and isn't personal.  I was framing you as the third scum and making it seem like you were framing me.  I mean, that's the game.

Being hammered out of time zone is frustrating, and not just for me.  You were right...this time.  But you won't always be.  I've been town far more than scum in mafia games.

[yuma]

1. oh and ash, I was mad at you... I kinda still am. That is why I voted for you without waiting for your reply. I honestly didn't know I had hammered you--because I didn't check. But if I had checked I still would have. Waiting for you to say something that might convince the others to switch to me would just be dumb play when I knew you were scum 100%.... So yeah. If I know something I am not going to give you a chance to talk your way out of it. Ever. Sorry if that isn't courteous, but hey, I play to win.

You shouldn't be mad at me for trying to get your killed or calling you a lying scum--that's just the game and isn't personal.  I was framing you as the third scum and making it seem like you were framing me.  I mean, that's the game.

Being hammered out of time zone is frustrating, and not just for me.  You were right...this time.  But you won't always be.  I've been town far more than scum in mafia games.

again game mad, not personally mad. Mad as in you just King Court Sabotured a Province and two golds mad...

And yes, hammering out of time zone wouldn't be smart if I didn't know your alignment. But this time I did. 100%. No doubt about it. And I am on vacation. I wasn't going to let you convince volt and frisk that I was actually the scum while I was cruising around in Disneyland. I had a chance to put my vote on you and lynch you to help town and I did.

If I didn't know you were scum I certainly would have appreciated your feedback (just like volt and frisk wanted to hear it). In this situation your feedback was worthless to me.

[ashersky]

1. oh and ash, I was mad at you... I kinda still am. That is why I voted for you without waiting for your reply. I honestly didn't know I had hammered you--because I didn't check. But if I had checked I still would have. Waiting for you to say something that might convince the others to switch to me would just be dumb play when I knew you were scum 100%.... So yeah. If I know something I am not going to give you a chance to talk your way out of it. Ever. Sorry if that isn't courteous, but hey, I play to win.

You shouldn't be mad at me for trying to get your killed or calling you a lying scum--that's just the game and isn't personal.  I was framing you as the third scum and making it seem like you were framing me.  I mean, that's the game.

Being hammered out of time zone is frustrating, and not just for me.  You were right...this time.  But you won't always be.  I've been town far more than scum in mafia games.

again game mad, not personally mad. Mad as in you just King Court Sabotured a Province and two golds mad...

And yes, hammering out of time zone wouldn't be smart if I didn't know your alignment. But this time I did. 100%. No doubt about it. And I am on vacation. I wasn't going to let you convince volt and frisk that I was actually the scum while I was cruising around in Disneyland. I had a chance to put my vote on you and lynch you to help town and I did.

If I didn't know you were scum I certainly would have appreciated your feedback (just like volt and frisk wanted to hear it). In this situation your feedback was worthless to me.

It wasn't you I wanted to give feedback to. 

I probably would have done the same thing in your shoes.  Still frustrating.

[Qvist]

yuma, if I would've let you live, I guess you would've voted for me too, right?

[TheMunch]

2. Day 2 was really frustrating for me. I had a case on me that was huge and it wouldn't go away. Everything I did or said was disputed and thrown back as scummy at me--especially by TheMunch (man, your reads were bad this game man). And at one point a self vote out of frustration was on my mind and very tempting... But I didn't. I didn't self vote because it would be detrimental to town. Self voting to me is always detrimental to town and honestly it is going to be an almost automatic vote when I see it. Not always, but almost always.

Not gonna argue.  My reads were rancid.  I am just pleased that I got to hammer scum!Joth.  It does bring up an interesting angle to scum claiming L-1 (I know I know no one agrees with me about claiming) but I feel like in this case it was Really bad for scum.  If you are fake claiming at L-1 and the role you are cliaming isn't on your wagon, they dont have to counterclaim.  They can just hammer and scum gains less information.  Yeah they can GUESS that the hammerer is that role but if this game shows they cant be 100% sure.

[yuma]

yuma, if I would've let you live, I guess you would've voted for me too, right?

as soon as I could have posted I would have voted you.

[Captain_Frisk]

yuma, if I would've let you live, I guess you would've voted for me too, right?

as soon as I could have posted I would have voted you.

Wow.  That confident eh?  I would have had 2nd thoughts for sure.

[yuma]

yuma, if I would've let you live, I guess you would've voted for me too, right?

as soon as I could have posted I would have voted you.

Wow.  That confident eh?  I would have had 2nd thoughts for sure.

Oh, I had lots of doubts. But I needed to trust my gut and talked myself into trusting my gut before the next day broke. I wasn't going to let myself talk myself out of anything and then feel really stupid.

That is I would rather be wrong because I guessed what I really thought then be wrong because I didn't trust myself. So I wasn't going to put myself in that situation.

[yuma]

Insomniac:

Did you decide on an MVP?

[Insomniac]

Nope theres one vote for Eevee and one for qvist

[Voltgloss]

My vote goes to Frisk.  Being an IC is hard, man.  But he came to the right results DESPITE his massive desire to believe me to be scum 

[Captain_Frisk]

My vote goes to Frisk.  Being an IC is hard, man.  But he came to the right results DESPITE his massive desire to believe me to be scum 

You were so scummy!

[yuma]

My vote goes to Frisk.  Being an IC is hard, man.  But he came to the right results DESPITE his massive desire to believe me to be scum 

You were so scummy!

his case on me and then the subsequent back off Day 2... and his interpretation of me believing axxle to be town as a town read is what made volt very town to me. Hmmm, that last sentence is very convoluted, but so was the process of getting there.  Volt I thought played very very well.

[Axxle]

Now I'm getting paranoid.  Scum watcher could very much be a thing.

[Voltgloss]

...are you in the wrong thread, Axxle?

[Axxle]

...

[Insomniac]

lulz

[Captain_Frisk]

My vote goes to Frisk.  Being an IC is hard, man.  But he came to the right results DESPITE his massive desire to believe me to be scum 

You were so scummy!

his case on me and then the subsequent back off Day 2... and his interpretation of me believing axxle to be town as a town read is what made volt very town to me. Hmmm, that last sentence is very convoluted, but so was the process of getting there.  Volt I thought played very very well.

Agreed... but he still was the first to claim the role - and was counter claimed.  Claimed to have investigated the exact same person, and the only scumwagon he was on was Qvist!

He also lurked all the way through day 1!!!

[Qvist]

I'm voting for Eevee too. He was on the right track since day 2. I have no idea how. I was so afraid of him that we decided to kill him.

[yuma]

reading through the QT and I am glad to see that ehunt had my back. Thanks ehunt. I fully agree that most of the self votes in fds have been townies. But every self vote by a townie is just stupid. It is normally done in frustration and an attempt to get people to back off. Frankly when a townie does it I see it as lazy. It means that this person is done arguing, done putting forward their case and done trying. It is just bad. So morale of the story. IF YOU ARE TOWN DON'T SELF VOTE. EVER! So if someone self votes, they are scum. If this becomes a trend then scum won't self vote, town won't self vote and we won't have to worry about it.

[Cuzz]

reading through the QT and I am glad to see that ehunt had my back. Thanks ehunt. I fully agree that most of the self votes in fds have been townies. But every self vote by a townie is just stupid. It is normally done in frustration and an attempt to get people to back off. Frankly when a townie does it I see it as lazy. It means that this person is done arguing, done putting forward their case and done trying. It is just bad. So morale of the story. IF YOU ARE TOWN DON'T SELF VOTE. EVER! So if someone self votes, they are scum. If this becomes a trend then scum won't self vote, town won't self vote and we won't have to worry about it.

I've always thought that I would never self-vote under any circumstances. And now I've played two games as town where town would have been better off had I self-voted to push my lynch through.

[Robz888]

MVP Vote: Frisk. He picked right! I thought Volt was scum...

[Robz888]

Still, it's nice for me to win a game I played absolutely no part in.

[Grujah]

I'm not voting for yuma because I think jotheonah, Qvist and ashersky are far better candidates. (maybe others too, but those are the guys I'm interested in lynching today)

How is this even possible?

[jotheonah]

Yeah, that was absolutely terrifying.

[Eevee]

Oh I like all this positive attention and complimenting! You should totally start listening to my cute little reads more often.

[jotheonah]

Scum will never let you live past night 1 again.

[Captain_Frisk]

Oh I like all this positive attention and complimenting! You should totally start listening to my cute little reads more often.

Did your reads change after calling out the trio?

[Eevee]

Oh I like all this positive attention and complimenting! You should totally start listening to my cute little reads more often.

Did your reads change after calling out the trio?

No, I don't think so. I was killed shortly after.

[B. Howell]

Appologies for the late unlock. You all deserved it for posting after lock  .


The manor had grown quiet. The town pondered the ramifications, the lights had, it seemed, never come back on ever since they killed Galzria, a quick investigation of the switches revealed that they were "on" but the lights were still off. It seemed none of them were able to flip these switches either Galzria had installed some form of control so that only he could use them. Still the town was worried they had got scum but was it enough? They looked around with their flashlights someone had gone missing in all the commotion. They went to the outdoor pool area where they saw a corpse floating face down in the pool a bullet hole cleanly placed through his chest. Why had they thrown him in the water, water corpses always smelled vile. They flipped the corpse over wondering who had gone missing.

eHunt the Vanilla Townie has been found dead

Thread Unlocked Day 2 Start

Horror is what i didn't want to encounter.

[Robz888]

Weird.

[Axxle]

Appologies for the late unlock. You all deserved it for posting after lock  .


The manor had grown quiet. The town pondered the ramifications, the lights had, it seemed, never come back on ever since they killed Galzria, a quick investigation of the switches revealed that they were "on" but the lights were still off. It seemed none of them were able to flip these switches either Galzria had installed some form of control so that only he could use them. Still the town was worried they had got scum but was it enough? They looked around with their flashlights someone had gone missing in all the commotion. They went to the outdoor pool area where they saw a corpse floating face down in the pool a bullet hole cleanly placed through his chest. Why had they thrown him in the water, water corpses always smelled vile. They flipped the corpse over wondering who had gone missing.

eHunt the Vanilla Townie has been found dead

Thread Unlocked Day 2 Start

Horror is what i didn't want to encounter.

And yet this thread rises from the dead.  Horror is what you have awoken.

[sudgy]

I saw it, and thought, "Oh, this is XXV.  They finally changed it to saying game over.  Wait, town wins?!?"  then I realized.

[Eevee]

Oh this game was my absolute top moment!!

[Eevee]

Whoever brought it back up, thank you!

[spiritbears]

Eevee doesnt give cute little reads....eevee is evil!!!

[yuma]

Oh this game was my absolute top moment!!

This was a really fun game. I had some very frustrating moments in it, but it ultimately ended up being one of my favorites... See day2 for how to fight against being a mislynch when you are a very obvious choice...

And eevee was very good in this game!

I wouldn't mind replaying this setup again, because I derphammered the SK early we never really got the full dynamic of the switches... although I do dislike the Night0 start and subsequent NKs...

[Eevee]

This game was a great example of why you should never give up never surrender.

[mail-mi]

This does sound fun. /in to the next one.