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[TheMunch]

I have tons of IRL work to do so I wont be as thorough until later this evening but there was a case I was going to post on Frisk yesterday but the day ended.  This from yesterday hints at the content:

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

PPE: I will also be reading

[Captain_Frisk]

I would suggest we all reread Day 2 through the lens of "joth=scum/Eevee=town" and see what conclusions we can draw.  I'll be doing the same.

In particular, Axxle's presence on joth's wagon has me questioning my scumread on Axxle.  Yes, bussing is a thing, but I'm not so sure that Axxle's vote fits that rubric.  So I'll be rereading with a particular eye to Axxle.  And my other particular eye to someone I lack a well-developed read on:  Qvist.

Well with my "scummy 5" theory, its gotta be you / Axxle / Asher - and we can afford one mislynch....

[Captain_Frisk]

I have tons of IRL work to do so I wont be as thorough until later this evening but there was a case I was going to post on Frisk yesterday but the day ended.  This from yesterday hints at the content:

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

PPE: I will also be reading

This is a terrible argument.  I promise that if you are town, and continue to tunnel on me, we're going to have a real tough time winning - since we only have 1 mislynch.

[TheMunch]

I would suggest we all reread Day 2 through the lens of "joth=scum/Eevee=town" and see what conclusions we can draw.  I'll be doing the same.

In particular, Axxle's presence on joth's wagon has me questioning my scumread on Axxle.  Yes, bussing is a thing, but I'm not so sure that Axxle's vote fits that rubric.  So I'll be rereading with a particular eye to Axxle.  And my other particular eye to someone I lack a well-developed read on:  Qvist.

Well with my "scummy 5" theory, its gotta be you / Axxle / Asher - and we can afford one mislynch....

You're scummy 5 theory becomes a lot more interesting if you are scum.

PPE: It would be a terrible argument if you your and joths interactions didn't sound terribly rehearsed.

[Voltgloss]

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

Munch, the posts of CF's you cite are actually the key evidence that, in my mind, paints CF as town.  If CF were really joth's scumbuddy, do you think he'd "reveal" their plan in this way AFTER you'd dropped the hammer and there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it?

I think you v. CF is town v. town, with scum lurking on the sidelines deciding which of you to "support" against the other.

May I instead suggest Qvist.  He ALSO "wanted Joth to claim"; he "threatened" to hammer Joth to put "pressure" on him; and then immediately withdrew that threat once Joth fakeclaimed (but BEFORE you hammered).  And then was utterly silent after the hammer fell.

THAT rings my scumalarms.  Not CF. 

CF:  could you explain again your reasoning for excluding Qvist from your "scummy 5" theory?  Does Qvist's behavior after you announced that theory cause you to question that read?

[TheMunch]

@volt:  I would agree that CF wanted his end day actions to resonate as bewildered town.  Joth was already dead.  It would be worse I think for him to take a stance against my hammer than to just play the "I dont even know whats going on!?!" card.  It just felt very disingenuous.

That being said, I agree 100% on Qvist.  If I had to put my money someplace, Qvist is the third scum; I just think my case on Frisk is stronger, and that is the reason why I am going for it.  It is quite true that Qvist was another player very active towards the deadline.  I can definitely see Qvist and CF knowing exactly what the claim was going to be and pushing for it to happen.

Lastly, if CF is scum, then I would guess that his scummy 5 split his team "1 on, 1 off".  We know that Joth was included in his scummy 5 game so I would look for the last scum not in the game.  Not in the game were: Me, Yuma, Eevee, and Qvist.  Eevee is looking pretty town to me right now (hehehe its funny cause he is dead and flipped town) and as such Yuma is looking townier to me as well (although he already was by the end of the day) (second aside: I'm kind of upset I was wrong about yuma/eevee, *sadface*).  That leaves Qvist as the last of the scum trio if CF is scum, which fits very nicely with Qvists scummy participation in the end of the day activity.

[Voltgloss]

Hey Axxle.  You're around.  Thoughts?

ash/Qvist/yuma, we'll need to wait before we hear from (ash due to timezones, yuma due to work, and Qvist mentioned in the Pandemic thread about not being able to update until this evening so I'm assuming he has limited access).

[Axxle]

Phone lurking right now but I like the CF and Qvist arguments. Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

[Captain_Frisk]

CF:  could you explain again your reasoning for excluding Qvist from your "scummy 5" theory?  Does Qvist's behavior after you announced that theory cause you to question that read?

I'll go back and reread, but I excluded him because his tunneling on me on day 1 read way too aggressive to be newbie scum play - just as I view TheMunch's craziness as not plausible scum play.

[Voltgloss]

Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He was.  He posted both shortly before and shortly after Munch's hammer.

[TheMunch]

Phone lurking right now but I like the CF and Qvist arguments. Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He posted 1 minute before I hammered.

[Voltgloss]

Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He was.  He posted both shortly before and shortly after Munch's hammer.

Which, on reread, shows that I was incorrect when I said upthread Qvist was "entirely silent afterwards."  My error, and my apologies.

That said, the comment he made post-hammer - "I hope that wasn't a mislynch or we just lost the game" (paraphrased) - doesn't do anything to change my suspicions.

[TheMunch]

Was Qvist online for the hammer though?

He was.  He posted both shortly before and shortly after Munch's hammer.

Which, on reread, shows that I was incorrect when I said upthread Qvist was "entirely silent afterwards."  My error, and my apologies.

That said, the comment he made post-hammer - "I hope that wasn't a mislynch or we just lost the game" (paraphrased) - doesn't do anything to change my suspicions.

Frisk made similar posts.  They actually read very scummy to me.  It is an informational post that is factually true which tries to incorporate "I dont know whether or not this is a mislynch" which ultimately just feels INCREDIBLY forced to me.

[TheMunch]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

[Voltgloss]

Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I have a theory, but don't feel comfortable presenting until after I've completed my reread and confirmed that it makes sense.

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

Or as I answered before - you could be scum.

[TheMunch]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

Or as I answered before - you could be scum.

Cool.  Scum kept me a live cause they thought they could lynch me.

[Insomniac]

Vote Count 3-1

Captain_Frisk (1) - TheMunch

Not Voting (6) - Captain_Frisk, Voltgloss, Axxle, Yuma, Ashersky, QVist

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: December 12 2012, 8:20am PST (11:20am forum time)

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

The answer is either anti-town or WIFOM.

Or as I answered before - you could be scum.

Cool.  Scum kept me a live cause they thought they could lynch me.

I think they kept you alive because you and QVist would be willing to mislynch me.

[Qvist]

Sorry, I just updated Pandemic, but I won't be able to post much here now. Just a few notes.

I really don't know what to think about TheMunch, was it just a horrible town mistake which indeed got lucky hitting the right one? It seems so, but then why didn't he get nightkilled?
And I was willing to hammer him, but after the claim I wanted to check first if joth's claim could made sense. Maybe someone counterclaims. And TheMunch hammered him before I could check anything. I don't know why this looks scummy to you all.

Either way, I have to rethink my suspects. I will post tommorow.

[ashersky]

I have tons of IRL work to do so I wont be as thorough until later this evening but there was a case I was going to post on Frisk yesterday but the day ended.  This from yesterday hints at the content:

Vote: Joth

I'm very confused by Captain Frisk play here.  First he calls me out with the hypothetical scenario "if we are about to mislynch a PR then we should want to know that and the person who is going to let us know that is the PR we are about to lynch; this way we dont mislynch and do scum's dirty work for them."  This sounds too much to me like Frisk already knows what Joth is going to claim, which is very dependent on Joth's allignment.  The only person I can see that knows both Joth's allignment and what he is going to claim is his scum buddy.  Perhaps he thinks Joth was breadcrumbing it with his "should I claim" question.

Without a breadcrumb, I cant believe this.

Basically now that we've known Joth flipped scum, it is becoming increasingly evident to me that Frisk is Joth's Scumbuddy.  Frisk wanted Joth to claim, he votes to put pressure on Joth, then I hammer before he can unvote after the claim.  Also I would like everyone to note these posts after I hammered:

Did you just hammer a town PR?

Without even waiting for a counterclaim?

This sounds very much like the plan was to use joth to fish out a counterclaim and they are both very upset that their plan didn't work.  They didn't get to figure out who the real doctor is and this ruined their plan.  I honestly think Frisk thought he could keep Joth alive with a quick unvote but it was not coordinated enough.

PPE: I will also be reading

This argument makes no sense to me.  I reread the deadline back-and-forth, especially at Frisk and Munch, given the open to D3.  Here's what I think.

I agree with Voltgloss that this post (and the post hammer stuff) from Frisk makes him seems much townier than before.  I pushed on Frisk pretty hard on D1 and D2, to be honest, but his reaction to the derphammer from Munch was very quick and sincere to me.  I know Munch seems to have a different idea on claiming in general, but Frisk's point about ensuring we don't lynch a PR is completely correct.

Also, with a re-read of the hammer time, TheMunch feigns surprises that it was the hammer, when we all know the VoteCount was just posted at the top of that page.  He says he didn't realize it.  Now, in today's post, he posits that Frisk/Joth were unhappy that they couldn't complete the "draw out the real doctor by fakeclaiming at L-1" plan.  Obviously in retrospect, TheMunch knows it was L-1, but if he's trying to claims his derphammer was used to foil scum!Frisk's plan, why feign the surprise that he was the hammer?

(On a side note, I've argued that derphammers at the right time can be good for town.  I think this one was, actually, in that our true doctor wasn't outed by scum!joth's fake claim.  I don't think, however, that TheMunch did it for that reason.)

So, I think the quick vote on Frisk today by TheMunch is scummy.  I don't know what to think of the derphammer, though, since it did help us by hitting mafia.  It was anti-town at the moment it occurred, but ended up being pro-town by both killing mafia and protecting our doctor.  That's pretty silly if TheMunch is mafia, isn't it?  So I guess that, even with all the scumminess flowing from TheMunch, I find it hard to believe he'd derphammer his teammate at that time.

[ashersky]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I think you are framing the question wrong.  And why do you single out yourself and Voltgloss, anyway?  Seems you are confirming Voltgloss as town...I definitely think he's town, but can't be sure.

The question should be: why did the mafia kill Eevee?  Who did he suspect the most, who did he interact with, who didn't he interact with.  I think that's where we'll find some answers.

[TheMunch]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I think you are framing the question wrong.  And why do you single out yourself and Voltgloss, anyway?  Seems you are confirming Voltgloss as town...I definitely think he's town, but can't be sure.

The question should be: why did the mafia kill Eevee?  Who did he suspect the most, who did he interact with, who didn't he interact with.  I think that's where we'll find some answers.

The Eevee kill actually reeks of mafia set up to me.  I was a huge proponent of the Eevee lynch and with him flipping town, maybe they thought it would make me look worse. 

I think the fact that so many people thought Volt was town would mean Volt was a clear NK target.  Scum should want to kill someone that EVERYONE thinks is town, right?

[Captain_Frisk]

CF/Qvist on the back burner for now.  Open question to everyone: why did scum kill eevee over myself or voltgloss?

I think you are framing the question wrong.  And why do you single out yourself and Voltgloss, anyway?  Seems you are confirming Voltgloss as town...I definitely think he's town, but can't be sure.

The question should be: why did the mafia kill Eevee?  Who did he suspect the most, who did he interact with, who didn't he interact with.  I think that's where we'll find some answers.

The Eevee kill actually reeks of mafia set up to me.  I was a huge proponent of the Eevee lynch and with him flipping town, maybe they thought it would make me look worse. 

I think the fact that so many people thought Volt was town would mean Volt was a clear NK target.  Scum should want to kill someone that EVERYONE thinks is town, right?

The doctor was most likely active last night-so scum probably didn't want to go for obvious kills...