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Author Topic: Where's the official app?  (Read 67281 times)

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ecq

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Where's the official app?
« on: April 25, 2012, 01:21:05 pm »
+1

Okay, I know this has been talked about to death, but its been a while since I've seen any news whatsoever.

Donald X. posted in January saying that the Isotropic tournament would get to finish and urging people to hurry up with whatever unofficial things they were doing, which seemed to imply the game would be released imminently.

Previous discussions/news also talked about time frames like "early 2012" and "Q1 2012."

We're now entering mid-2012.  I've been patiently saving up my hard-earned cash (RGG, Mr. Lincoln says "Hello!").  When can I have my official game?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 01:21:57 pm »
0

I'm sure this forum will be one of the first places to know when anybody does.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2012, 01:31:11 pm »
0

Well, we're supposed to have a qualifier for the US championships hosted on that new official server. Those championships aren't too far away...
I'd be pretty surprised if it's not out by the end of May, even though we've been hearing 'really soon' for like half a year now.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2012, 04:34:20 pm »
+1

The official developers work on Valve time, or at least Blizzard time.  The last time I actually saw an actual date posted by someone official (don't remember if it was Donald or Jay), I believe the indication was "sometime around September."

September 2011, to be specific.

Given the serious time slip on this, I wonder sometimes if the person they've hired is actually working.  I certainly can't believe there's more than one person working on it, at least not full time.
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ednever

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2012, 06:04:28 pm »
0

"scope creep"

Its amazing how much faster one guy is doing it on his own time vs a project from a big company.

I would be shocked if it's out before gencon...

Ed
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theory

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 06:20:28 pm »
+7

The official developers work on Valve time, or at least Blizzard time.
Valve Time is not really a bad thing, especially if you are producing Valve-quality material.

Besides, you can't have it both ways.  You can't preemptively complain about how new stuff is going to suck and how the old stuff is better, and also complain that the new stuff is taking too long to get here, keeping you stuck on the old stuff.  If it's going to be good, it's going to take longer.  In the meantime, we get to enjoy Isotropic, which is what most of want anyway, isn't it?
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Donald X.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 07:02:34 pm »
+7

The people actually making the online version never announced a date, so they have not failed to make a date either. And you (excluding a subset of insiders reading this) don't know when they started, so you have no idea how fast they are working. Look at that.

It's fine to complain that you wish they'd announce something, or that you wish you didn't have specific expectations due to someone other than them making an insufficiently informed guess. Neither of those things will generate an announcement or fulfill those expectations though.
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tlloyd

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 07:16:58 pm »
+1

Donald I have no problem with the obvious frustration in your response, and I agree that people should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled. However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when. That goes for the new basic cards "expansion" as well. If you have no update for us, then (most of us) will just keep on patiently waiting.
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Donald X.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2012, 07:38:50 pm »
+6

However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when.
The people making the online version wish to control that flow of information. Since I am working with them I would like a friendly relationship with them, so I am respecting that!

So, no, not a better use of my time.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2012, 09:54:20 pm »
+2

Donald I have no problem with the obvious frustration in your response, and I agree that people should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled. However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when. That goes for the new basic cards "expansion" as well. If you have no update for us, then (most of us) will just keep on patiently waiting.
Wow, I didn't actually read him as being frustrated there, and uh, that's not really his place. I mean, if there were some design-related issue, then yeah, I'd be going for him telling us about it. Or maybe if there were a rules issue, since he's basically the de facto rules judge for the game, then I'd be ok with asking him for something like this here (actually, even then, you hurry a decision -> you get a bad decision).
I mean, his alternative is to not talk to us at all. Which might indeed be a better use of his time. But I, for one, would not like this change.

Axxle

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2012, 10:08:54 pm »
+1

The people making the online version
So more than one person IS working on the game!!!  Information!  ;D

Thanks Donald, I really don't know why people are getting frustrated with you, you're just doing as the developers have asked.
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ftl

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2012, 10:12:00 pm »
0

Well, not much to do but wait.

Wait and complain, that is. Everyone official is being all secretive, apparently even official-ish announcements that we'd had in the past were meaningless... bleh.

Well, the game's great, and announcements about expansions and things seem reasonable, it's just the digital version which is shrouded in mystery and guarded by the secret service. Ah well. It'll be here when it gets here, and hopefully it'll be good when it does.

I don't think people are frustrated with Donald - are they? I'd be more frustrated with the devs or whoever is in charge of their PR. 
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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2012, 10:47:06 pm »
+2

should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled.
Goddammit I really wish people would stop using this phrase. It really makes me feel entitled to shove a boot up their ass.
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jsh357

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2012, 10:53:12 pm »
0

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greatexpectations

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2012, 10:56:19 pm »
0

i must admit i am a little curious about what the official version will look like. 

but i am also curious as to why people get themselves so worked up over a product that will (likely) require them to pay when they are currently able to use a quality product for free.  and with the game creator's blessing to boot.
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dondon151

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2012, 11:00:50 pm »
0

image

If no one complained about things, then there wouldn't be an incentive to do things well, would there?
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jonts26

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2012, 11:02:05 pm »
+4

Maybe he's complaining about all of our complaining so that we increase the quality of said complaining.
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2012, 11:11:07 pm »
0

should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled.
Goddammit I really wish people would stop using this phrase. It really makes me feel entitled to shove a boot up their ass.

That's generally nice that you feel that way and all, but it's a serious issue. The instant gratification, what have you done for me today, you owe me because I say so - it's all ridiculous and condescending.

The world doesn't revolve around you, me, or anyone else here. We are entitled to nothing. RGG doesn't have to release any more games. Donald doesn't have to associate with us. An app doesn't have to be made. They do these things because it brings enjoyment to them, and to us.

There are times and places to be critical. When someone provides you something out of the goodness of their heart, is not one of them. When you have NO insider knowledge of the goings on within a company/production team, is not one of them. Just because the world doesn't meet your wants NOW, is not one of them.

I am excited for, and look forward to, the release of the official app, and know that every day spent not having it, is a day they spent making it worth the wait. Keep up the good work boys.

Cheers
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
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SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

dondon151

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2012, 11:13:54 pm »
+2

There are times and places to be critical. When someone provides you something out of the goodness of their heart, is not one of them.

Uh, hello?

RGG makes a profit
Donald X. makes a profit

Now I'm sure that the folks at RGG and Donald X. enjoy playing and making board games of all shapes and sizes, but saying that they're doing it "out of the goodness of their heart" is blatantly false.

That's generally nice that you feel that way and all, but it's a serious issue. The instant gratification, what have you done for me today, you owe me because I say so - it's all ridiculous and condescending.

Way to misrepresent barsooma's stance. I know he's quite abrasive, but strawmen like this is exactly why no one takes him seriously.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:17:17 pm by dondon151 »
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Toskk

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2012, 11:15:23 pm »
+1

However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when.
The people making the online version wish to control that flow of information. Since I am working with them I would like a friendly relationship with them, so I am respecting that!

So, no, not a better use of my time.

Not to be overly antagonistic, but "flow" requires that *some* information is actually moving in a specific direction.. which is by definition not the case here. There has been *no* information from the "people" making the online version. I mean no disrespect to you (as the issue definitely isn't within your control), however the marketing department for the 'official' online version of Dominion is seriously dropping the ball here.. and no, I'm not talking about entitlement, or instant gratification, or complaining. Rather, there's an entire forum of avid online Dominion players here, otherwise known as prime targets for viral marketing and 'hype'. As this thread can attest, video gamers are *very* used to the "another two weeks" phrase. Development taking longer than predicted/expected is the norm.. but *zero* information from the developers of a product isn't.. and I'm really scratching my head as to the why.

Edit: I mean, I'm guessing quite a few folks have gone and spent money on any of the various Dominion (or knock-off) 'apps' available for sale already. That's possibly lost revenue for the 'official' game already.. but if players had a better sense of just what features the official online version might have, it could crowd the third-party apps out even *before* the official version is ready.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:19:05 pm by Toskk »
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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2012, 11:15:35 pm »
+1

should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled.
Goddammit I really wish people would stop using this phrase. It really makes me feel entitled to shove a boot up their ass.

That's generally nice that you feel that way and all, but it's a serious issue. The instant gratification, what have you done for me today, you owe me because I say so - it's all ridiculous and condescending.

The world doesn't revolve around you, me, or anyone else here. We are entitled to nothing. RGG doesn't have to release any more games. Donald doesn't have to associate with us. An app doesn't have to be made. They do these things because it brings enjoyment to them, and to us.

There are times and places to be critical. When someone provides you something out of the goodness of their heart, is not one of them. When you have NO insider knowledge of the goings on within a company/production team, is not one of them. Just because the world doesn't meet your wants NOW, is not one of them.

I am excited for, and look forward to, the release of the official app, and know that every day spent not having it, is a day they spent making it worth the wait. Keep up the good work boys.

Cheers

It's nothing but a cheap rhetorical trick to marginalize complaints by linking them with a political hot-button which has been programmed into us by our corporate overlord media.
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2012, 11:15:59 pm »
0

There are times and places to be critical. When someone provides you something out of the goodness of their heart, is not one of them.

Uh, hello?

RGG makes a profit
Donald X. makes a profit

Now I'm sure that the folks at RGG and Donald X. enjoy playing and making board games of all shapes and sizes, but saying that they're doing it "out of the goodness of their heart" is blatantly false.

"goodness of their hearts" wa reference to the recent complaining about Iso and DougZ.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

dondon151

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2012, 11:19:45 pm »
0

"goodness of their hearts" wa reference to the recent complaining about Iso and DougZ.

Take a minute to review your post. Where did it make any reference to Iso and DougZ? You brought up exactly 2 entities - RGG and Donald X. - in the paragraph preceding the quoted statement; how was I supposed to infer that this was a reference to Iso and DougZ?

I think we've established a clear difference in a certain other thread between being critical and being malicious. The only thing preventing people from presenting their honest opinions is the censure that they receive for being ostensibly untactful. But seriously - something's quite not right here regarding the release of the official app, and it should be known, preferably in a nice, civilized manner.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:24:18 pm by dondon151 »
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2012, 11:28:07 pm »
0

"goodness of their hearts" wa reference to the recent complaining about Iso and DougZ.

Take a minute to review your post. Where did it make any reference to Iso and DougZ? You brought up exactly 2 entities - RGG and Donald X. - in the paragraph preceding the quoted statement; how was I supposed to infer that this was a reference to Iso and DougZ?

I think we've established a clear difference in a certain other thread between being critical and being malicious. The only thing preventing people from presenting their honest opinions is the censure that they receive for being ostensibly untactful. But seriously - something's quite not right here regarding the release of the official app, and it should be known, preferably in a nice, civilized manner.

Sorry, the post was in response to  baroosma, who it seems ha taken up the mantle of complaining about everything he can think of. There was no direct reference in my post to the previous thread, although the point is still relevant. I don't, at glance, take you to feel this way about all the same issues baroosma does.

However, to your point about making a profit: I agree. I said there is a time and place. Complain about the card game itself if you like. It's a released product that you've paid for. Complain about the app after you have it - I take no issue. But unless you have, and have paid for it already? They owe you nothing.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

tlloyd

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2012, 11:32:42 pm »
0

However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when.
The people making the online version wish to control that flow of information. Since I am working with them I would like a friendly relationship with them, so I am respecting that!

So, no, not a better use of my time.

Okay. I just meant if you did have information to pass on, that we're all anxious to get it. But as I said, if there's nothing new to report then we'll just keep on looking forward to the release. I hope you take the general anticipation as the sincere compliment it is, and ignore those whose eagerness doesn't come across politely.
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O

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2012, 11:34:56 pm »
0

"goodness of their hearts" wa reference to the recent complaining about Iso and DougZ.

Take a minute to review your post. Where did it make any reference to Iso and DougZ? You brought up exactly 2 entities - RGG and Donald X. - in the paragraph preceding the quoted statement; how was I supposed to infer that this was a reference to Iso and DougZ?

I think we've established a clear difference in a certain other thread between being critical and being malicious. The only thing preventing people from presenting their honest opinions is the censure that they receive for being ostensibly untactful. But seriously - something's quite not right here regarding the release of the official app, and it should be known, preferably in a nice, civilized manner.

Sorry, the post was in response to  baroosma, who it seems ha taken up the mantle of complaining about everything he can think of. There was no direct reference in my post to the previous thread, although the point is still relevant. I don't, at glance, take you to feel this way about all the same issues baroosma does.

However, to your point about making a profit: I agree. I said there is a time and place. Complain about the card game itself if you like. It's a released product that you've paid for. Complain about the app after you have it - I take no issue. But unless you have, and have paid for it already? They owe you nothing.

That's usually a pretty terrible business model to take: screw our potential customers, they haven't even paid us yet!!

Not that RGG or Donald has done this.
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tlloyd

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2012, 11:36:11 pm »
0

Donald I have no problem with the obvious frustration in your response, and I agree that people should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled. However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when. That goes for the new basic cards "expansion" as well. If you have no update for us, then (most of us) will just keep on patiently waiting.
Wow, I didn't actually read him as being frustrated there, and uh, that's not really his place. I mean, if there were some design-related issue, then yeah, I'd be going for him telling us about it. Or maybe if there were a rules issue, since he's basically the de facto rules judge for the game, then I'd be ok with asking him for something like this here (actually, even then, you hurry a decision -> you get a bad decision).
I mean, his alternative is to not talk to us at all. Which might indeed be a better use of his time. But I, for one, would not like this change.

I may have misread his intent, but you have certainly misread mine. I didn't say "tell us everything you know! screw the game developers!" I said give us an update if you can; otherwise we'll just have to wait. Clearly I'm not hoping that he'll stop talking to us.
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2012, 11:46:54 pm »
0

O, I fully agree that information of ANY kind has been, well, lacking. And I don't disagree that it's a pretty bad business model. And heck, if they ASKED my opinion, I'd let them know.

But they haven't, and it isn't my place to complain about it. I'm just happy that it IS coming, and happy trusting that extended wait time means a better product. If that trust is misplaced? I'll be first in line to let them hear it. But until then, demanding more, our complaining about things 100% out of our control (as SOME have done, or continue to do) is silly.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2012, 11:52:06 pm »
0

Donald I have no problem with the obvious frustration in your response, and I agree that people should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled. However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when. That goes for the new basic cards "expansion" as well. If you have no update for us, then (most of us) will just keep on patiently waiting.
Wow, I didn't actually read him as being frustrated there, and uh, that's not really his place. I mean, if there were some design-related issue, then yeah, I'd be going for him telling us about it. Or maybe if there were a rules issue, since he's basically the de facto rules judge for the game, then I'd be ok with asking him for something like this here (actually, even then, you hurry a decision -> you get a bad decision).
I mean, his alternative is to not talk to us at all. Which might indeed be a better use of his time. But I, for one, would not like this change.

I may have misread his intent, but you have certainly misread mine. I didn't say "tell us everything you know! screw the game developers!" I said give us an update if you can; otherwise we'll just have to wait. Clearly I'm not hoping that he'll stop talking to us.
You're misreading mine? I'm not saying you're saying 'tell us everything you know!' I'm saying you're asking him to tell us something. Which he has no reason or right to tell us. Which I support by your claim "However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when." So, uh, if you can explain how that's not what I'm saying... more power to you? Not that I think this is terribly important.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2012, 11:52:58 pm »
+2

image

If no one complained about things, then there wouldn't be an incentive to do things well, would there?
We would, in fact, continue to have many incentives.

barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2012, 11:56:38 pm »
0

O, I fully agree that information of ANY kind has been, well, lacking. And I don't disagree that it's a pretty bad business model. And heck, if they ASKED my opinion, I'd let them know.

But they haven't, and it isn't my place to complain about it. I'm just happy that it IS coming, and happy trusting that extended wait time means a better product. If that trust is misplaced? I'll be first in line to let them hear it. But until then, demanding more, our complaining about things 100% out of our control (as SOME have done, or continue to do) is silly.

Hmm, sounds like you're saying that they deserve our trust and patience... perhaps they are even ENTITLED to it?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2012, 11:57:31 pm »
0

should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled.
Goddammit I really wish people would stop using this phrase. It really makes me feel entitled to shove a boot up their ass.
You know, I could say the same thing about this post. Except that I don't, as a rule, use such language, or actually physically want to cause harm to someone I'm upset with.
I really wish certain people would stop actually feeling entitled. I wish people would stop being absolute jerks. I wish people would stop being offensive. Man, these wishes look really effective...

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2012, 12:03:57 am »
0

We would, in fact, continue to have many incentives.

Prove it. How would you know how to do better if no one told you what you were doing wrong?
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Papa Luigi

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2012, 12:09:21 am »
+2

I'm not a programmer but I can say that in all my years of following various software releases, mostly games, I have never gotten the impression that you can simply "code faster," nor do I think I have ever seen a situation in which a game being released sooner was a good thing.

Sometimes you have big publishers enforcing release dates with an iron fist - see EA and Activision. The end product usually ends up being subpar because they must release an unfinished, unpolished product, and then patch any problems after the fact (and after people have already bought the game). Of course they're not always so nice as to actually fix those problems, and if you ask some people, you're "entitled" for asking for fixes.

Other times you have the smaller, quality-focused developers who are more concerned with making sure their product is excellent upon release. Maybe they want things to be too perfect. But the schedules tend to slip. Sometimes they slip A LOT. In many cases, the end result is worth the wait.

Also remember that the people here are on the bleeding edge of the Dominion world. We get to try out new cards before they're even released for sale. We get to play with ALL the promo cards that many people don't even know exist. We get to have conversations with the game's creator! So while we've known about the official app for months, most casual Dominion players may not know of it yet. A lot of them probably haven't even heard of Isotropic; I know I didn't until maybe a month or two ago. Essentially, to us, the official app has been stuck in development for a long time. But to a lot of more casual fans of the game, they may not know it exists until it's released.

At any rate, I'm looking forward to it, but I'm certainly not hoping they rush it. I want the official app to play every bit as well as Isotropic. I wouldn't mind having a slick, pretty interface that maybe works better on tablets or phones, but the real important thing is making sure the game plays exactly as it does in real life, and that's where Isotropic has done so well.

Long story short, there's no real sense in asking about it because software development is way, way over most of our heads and there's already a perfectly good online implementation available that you can use whenever you like.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2012, 12:10:22 am »
+1

   OH LOOK
      ಠ_ಠ
   It's THIS
thread again.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2012, 12:11:52 am »
0

   OH LOOK
      ಠ_ಠ
   It's THIS
thread again.



I will never not love that gif.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2012, 12:16:44 am »
0

We would, in fact, continue to have many incentives.

Prove it. How would you know how to do better if no one told you what you were doing wrong?
A few things. First, it's very very sad to me if your only incentives come from other people complaining at you. You didn't say 'we wouldn't know what we needed to improve upon' or 'we wouldn't know how to do things better', either of which isn't necessarily true, but both of which are much more defensible than your claim that 'If no one complained about things, then there wouldn't be an incentive to do things well'.
Second, proving this is laughably easy. I eat meals every day because I want to, not because other people complain. I try to learn how to make the weird dishes I like better than I can now, so that I will more enjoy them. Also so that other people will enjoy them if I make them for them, even though I haven't yet and certainly haven't heard complaints. Just the vast majority of what I do, I do because I think it's the right thing to do, it's what I want to do, because I think it's what I should do, not because other people are nagging me, but because I have a largely internal, also shaped through study of various things, sense of what is good. And I like to increase the good in the world for its own sake, not just because people nag me.
Thirdly, even if you can't prove something, that doesn't mean it's not true.

2+2=4. Prove it.
a&&!a = false. (i.e. nothing can be both true and false at the same time). Prove it.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2012, 01:38:29 am »
0

As a video game developer myself, believe me, once the developers of the official app set any kind of date they'll tell us.  They want to make money on this as much as we want a quality product.  We have too much of an already established fanbase to slight us with a shoddy product.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2012, 02:58:28 am »
0

First, it's very very sad to me if your only incentives come from other people complaining at you.

This is an oversimplification of my statement. Clearly, if one makes a product for consumption by other consumers, then the only incentive to improve that product (or really, do anything better) is consumer feedback.

You didn't say 'we wouldn't know what we needed to improve upon' or 'we wouldn't know how to do things better', either of which isn't necessarily true,

Isn't that the end goal of a complaint - to tell the provider what to make better and how it should be done?

Second, proving this is laughably easy. I eat meals every day because I want to, not because other people complain.

Your attempt at a proof by contradiction falls outside of the context of this argument, but I'll entertain you anyway: you eat meals every day because your brain perceives a lack of glucose in your blood and/or glycogen in your liver, not because you "want" to. Physiologically, your body is complaining to you. You wouldn't know if you were hungry otherwise!

I try to learn how to make the weird dishes I like better than I can now, so that I will more enjoy them. Also so that other people will enjoy them if I make them for them, even though I haven't yet and certainly haven't heard complaints.

Suppose that you had a peculiar taste that no one else seems to appreciate. What do you do?
Suppose that Iso had an odd quirk (like the Quarry-GM quirk) that DougZ doesn't mind because he knows his creation in and out, but the users are mildly annoyed. What should DougZ do?

Just the vast majority of what I do, I do because I think it's the right thing to do, it's what I want to do, because I think it's what I should do, not because other people are nagging me, but because I have a largely internal, also shaped through study of various things, sense of what is good. And I like to increase the good in the world for its own sake, not just because people nag me.

I spy 2 distinctly contradictory statements coming from you:
1. Consumers should not complain about the quality of a free product
2. Producers should be concerned about the quality of a free product

Now, I totally agree with point 2 from a moral standpoint, but the fact is that the producer has nothing to gain by improving his product, which leads to the case for point 1 (because it's selfish to demand things for free). So if you posit point 1... then aren't you admitting a positive correlation between consumer-driven incentive and the producer's benefit? And if you posit point 1, then you admit that the producer does not have a self-driven incentive except for a foggy sense of moral obligation?

2+2=4. Prove it.

http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html

a&&!a = false. (i.e. nothing can be both true and false at the same time). Prove it.

Well, this one I can't do.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 03:06:32 am by dondon151 »
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2012, 03:41:23 am »
+2

By far the biggest concern to me is that most developers are ever-anxious to get information out about their products...designer interviews, developer blogs, screenshots, play demos, that sort of thing.  The reasoning is pretty simple:

1) They're proud of their work
2) The developers wants others to be excited about the product as they are

When a game developer is silent, that's very often a bad sign for a game...usually meaning that the project isn't going well and/or the timeline is slipping.  Quite often the reason a game developer doesn't share information about their game is that they don't have good news or a good product to report.

I really hope that the Dominion app is one of those rare exceptions, but I fear that it may not be...personally, I'm anxious to hear news of the game not so much because I really want advance details or an exact release date, but because the silence leads me to believe that things may not be going so well for the project.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2012, 04:12:50 am »
0

It would surprise me if they are behind on schedule.

It's not like making an app is rocket science nowadays. And they have plenty of examples of interfaces they can copy, like the Thunderstone app or the Magic software. How difficult is it to implement the cards? Just ask DougZ for Iso's source code. :)
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2012, 05:11:29 am »
0

Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2012, 07:16:11 am »
0

I don't think the app will be difficult. Any AI will be difficult.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2012, 08:45:54 am »
0

First, it's very very sad to me if your only incentives come from other people complaining at you.

This is an oversimplification of my statement.
Maybe so, but if it is, I don't see it, and I want you to explain your statement better. Which, I think you do right now?
Quote
Clearly, if one makes a product for consumption by other consumers, then the only incentive to improve that product (or really, do anything better) is consumer feedback.
No! First of all, this limits the case to products for consumers, which is way smaller than what you're saying in your first statement which has 'anyone does anything'. But fine, let's limit it. It's still not true. I generally don't do things at all because people have complained at me. I do things well because I want them to be quality. I like doing good things, and I like doing them well. Now, what constitutes doing them well is SOMETIMES shaped by what people are telling me they want. But more, it's about doing what's right/best. I think anyone who has worked with children understands the difference.
Quote
You didn't say 'we wouldn't know what we needed to improve upon' or 'we wouldn't know how to do things better', either of which isn't necessarily true,

Isn't that the end goal of a complaint - to tell the provider what to make better and how it should be done?
No. That's the end goal of constructive criticism. But even if you use the former to mean the latter... I mean, my point is not that 'complaints' don't help you figure out what to do, how to do it, etc. etc. My point is that it's by no means the ONLY way.
Quote

Second, proving this is laughably easy. I eat meals every day because I want to, not because other people complain.

Your attempt at a proof by contradiction falls outside of the context of this argument, but I'll entertain you anyway: you eat meals every day because your brain perceives a lack of glucose in your blood and/or glycogen in your liver, not because you "want" to. Physiologically, your body is complaining to you. You wouldn't know if you were hungry otherwise!
It doesn't fall outside the context of the argument. Why is that outside the context of the argument? Furthermore, no. I mean, this is a semantic/philosophical thing now, but a) I don't think that I am merely a function of my brain chemistry, and b) even if I were, that would then be what we call 'want'. And in fact, lots of people eat things when they aren't hungry. Look at all the obesity in America. Some of it's caused by medical conditions where people who are well nourished have hormonal problems that cause them to still 'feel hungry'. But the vast majority don't.

Quote
I try to learn how to make the weird dishes I like better than I can now, so that I will more enjoy them. Also so that other people will enjoy them if I make them for them, even though I haven't yet and certainly haven't heard complaints.

Suppose that you had a peculiar taste that no one else seems to appreciate. What do you do?
Suppose that Iso had an odd quirk (like the Quarry-GM quirk) that DougZ doesn't mind because he knows his creation in and out, but the users are mildly annoyed. What should DougZ do?
I in fact do have that kind of taste. What I do is not make that kind of food for other people, since I care about them. But I care about them; it's not about complaints. Because the only people I ever cook for love me too, and they generally wouldn't complain if I made them charcoal (okay, I mean, if I make charcoal often enough, they'll tell me, and they'll tell me their preferences, etc. etc. But not complain).
What dougZ SHOULD do is a much more interesting and important, but also much deeper and more complicated question. Because it's a question of ethics. Now I can evince an entire ethical system here, but... I'm just going to skip to the conclusion. He should do what's best for him, and what's best for the users. In this case, it's almost certainly what he has done, and hey, he seems like a pretty ethical guy, so that makes sense. However, this whole thing doesn't really seem to be getting anywhere to me? Like, your attempt at proof by example isn't more successful than any other proof by example try.
Quote
Just the vast majority of what I do, I do because I think it's the right thing to do, it's what I want to do, because I think it's what I should do, not because other people are nagging me, but because I have a largely internal, also shaped through study of various things, sense of what is good. And I like to increase the good in the world for its own sake, not just because people nag me.

I spy 2 distinctly contradictory statements coming from you:
1. Consumers should not complain about the quality of a free product
2. Producers should be concerned about the quality of a free product

Now, I totally agree with point 2 from a moral standpoint, but the fact is that the producer has nothing to gain by improving his product, which leads to the case for point 1 (because it's selfish to demand things for free). So if you posit point 1... then aren't you admitting a positive correlation between consumer-driven incentive and the producer's benefit? And if you posit point 1, then you admit that the producer does not have a self-driven incentive except for a foggy sense of moral obligation?
These things aren't contradictory at all! People shouldn't complain about free products, because man, well you shouldn't generally complain. And even more so about free products because they aren't invested or entitled to anything there, they haven't put anything in. This doesn't mean that the people who are making the things shouldn't want to make quality products. In fact this only follows if you accept your (once again, totally wrong) premise that the only reason to do something is to avoid complaints. But I want to make a product just to make a quality product. dougZ made isotropic... well, not out of complaints. I'm not sure why exactly, but probably because he figured people would enjoy it, or HE would enjoy it, or he just wanted the challenge. It's fun. And anything I do, I want to do it quality. I don't do things half-way just because I can get away with it.

Quote
2+2=4. Prove it.

http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html
That doesn't prove it at all.

Quote
a&&!a = false. (i.e. nothing can be both true and false at the same time). Prove it.

Well, this one I can't do.
No kidding.

Edit: cleaned up a /quote thing
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 08:48:41 am by WanderingWinder »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2012, 08:48:14 am »
0

Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
True, but let's not blame the programmers. Usually it's those sales guys who have no idea what the situations of programming are, because they don't know how to program, and they don't ask how long things will take, and still they are like 'yeah, we can do that in 2 weeks, no problem'. When it takes 2 months at least.
Not that I have any reason to think that happened here, really. Just seems to happen a lot.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2012, 08:49:40 am »
+1

No official app yet?
Oh no, its the end of the world!
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2012, 08:50:41 am »
0

because man, ....
Another phrase which is greatly overused around here and rubs me the wrong way.
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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2012, 08:51:55 am »
0

Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
True, but let's not blame the programmers. Usually it's those sales guys who have no idea what the situations of programming are, because they don't know how to program, and they don't ask how long things will take, and still they are like 'yeah, we can do that in 2 weeks, no problem'. When it takes 2 months at least.
Not that I have any reason to think that happened here, really. Just seems to happen a lot.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2012, 09:04:06 am »
0

because man, ....
Another phrase which is greatly overused around here and rubs me the wrong way.
The 'man,' thing is just a phrase, and doesn't imply ANYTHING really, except maybe that the person reading it is a man? I apologize if any female readers are offended.
I do not apologize to aliens.

The reason it gets used so much, I think, is because Donald has used it in his posts a few times, and we like the way he thinks.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2012, 09:05:19 am »
0

Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
True, but let's not blame the programmers. Usually it's those sales guys who have no idea what the situations of programming are, because they don't know how to program, and they don't ask how long things will take, and still they are like 'yeah, we can do that in 2 weeks, no problem'. When it takes 2 months at least.
Not that I have any reason to think that happened here, really. Just seems to happen a lot.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
That is specifically not what I'm saying. I don't know what the deal is here, because nobody's telling us anything.

barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2012, 09:09:50 am »
0

Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
True, but let's not blame the programmers. Usually it's those sales guys who have no idea what the situations of programming are, because they don't know how to program, and they don't ask how long things will take, and still they are like 'yeah, we can do that in 2 weeks, no problem'. When it takes 2 months at least.
Not that I have any reason to think that happened here, really. Just seems to happen a lot.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
That is specifically not what I'm saying. I don't know what the deal is here, because nobody's telling us anything.
Wouldn't it seem like that should be the marketing guys job though?
Informing customers, drumming up interest, managing expectations?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2012, 10:27:31 am »
+3

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
That is specifically not what I'm saying. I don't know what the deal is here, because nobody's telling us anything.

While I generally don't like to agree much with barsooma, he's correct here I think.

The very fact that no one's saying anything is the PR/marketing falling down on the job.

Look... if RGG had never announced anything until, say, a month before an official release date, everyone here would basically be all <salivate...>  The complaints would be entirely about lack of features, if any features were lacking as compared with isotropic.  No one would be complaining about lack of information.

Instead, we've dealt with nebulous rumors for over a year, I think, at this point.  We've had official PR from RGG (click the PDF links at the bottom) that has gone from "late 2011" to "early 2012," and I think it's reasonable to suggest that Early 2012 ends at the end of this month.  We have a shadowy figure, or figures, or possibly androids or lizard people, programming the game; they won't let their names be released, they won't let a date be released, they won't let any information about the programs be released, and they insist they alone be arbiters of this information.

The blame here does not lie with Donald; he has been extremely frank in basically saying "Look, I can't tell you guys anything."  I've never even seen Donald suggest a date; that's all been straight from RGG!  The problem here is squarely with Jay and RGG, for contracting with such secretive programmers in the first place (I really think this was the most serious mistake), and then for lousy PR management--i.e., telling us that it's coming but that they can't say anything else.

This is a serious PR disaster.  I don't know about anyone else, but RGG has already lost money from me due to this fiasco.

At this point, I'm going to move forward assuming this thing is vaporware.  And if it does come out, they're going to have to seriously impress me to get me to buy it.
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Papa Luigi

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2012, 10:36:09 am »
0

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
That is specifically not what I'm saying. I don't know what the deal is here, because nobody's telling us anything.

While I generally don't like to agree much with barsooma, he's correct here I think.

The very fact that no one's saying anything is the PR/marketing falling down on the job.

Look... if RGG had never announced anything until, say, a month before an official release date, everyone here would basically be all <salivate...>  The complaints would be entirely about lack of features, if any features were lacking as compared with isotropic.  No one would be complaining about lack of information.

Instead, we've dealt with nebulous rumors for over a year, I think, at this point.  We've had official PR from RGG (click the PDF links at the bottom) that has gone from "late 2011" to "early 2012," and I think it's reasonable to suggest that Early 2012 ends at the end of this month.  We have a shadowy figure, or figures, or possibly androids or lizard people, programming the game; they won't let their names be released, they won't let a date be released, they won't let any information about the programs be released, and they insist they alone be arbiters of this information.

The blame here does not lie with Donald; he has been extremely frank in basically saying "Look, I can't tell you guys anything."  I've never even seen Donald suggest a date; that's all been straight from RGG!  The problem here is squarely with Jay and RGG, for contracting with such secretive programmers in the first place (I really think this was the most serious mistake), and then for lousy PR management--i.e., telling us that it's coming but that they can't say anything else.

This is a serious PR disaster.  I don't know about anyone else, but RGG has already lost money from me due to this fiasco.

At this point, I'm going to move forward assuming this thing is vaporware.  And if it does come out, they're going to have to seriously impress me to get me to buy it.
Vaporware? Seriously? When was the last time a piece of software was released on schedule?

That said, you do raise some valid points - you'd think that with RGG being fully aware of how much we love Dominion, they'd at least try to placate us in a way other than "it's coming." If you don't give people anything to talk about, they'll assume the worst.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 10:38:37 am by Papa Luigi »
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ecq

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2012, 10:42:00 am »
+1

As my 9 month old says, "Blah blah blah."

My original post wasn't meant to be a complaint but an inquiry, and certainly didn't need to start a flame war.  I'm glad that Donald X. chimed in, even if it was to say that we're getting no more info.  I understand that he's not the right person to ask, but as far as I'm aware, he's the only one who visits this forum who even knows who the developers are, so naturally we do plead with him to be the liaison.

I'm not particularly eager for Isotropic to shut down for a pay option, but I will almost certainly buy the game and I'm eager for details about the game and when I can expect it.  Dominion eats up a lot of my spare time, so I want to know what the future holds.  Further, there was a post mentioning about player-made AIs.  As a nerd, this excites me.

I write software for a living.  I understand that deadlines are pretty fluid with this stuff, but we always have a general sense of what the target date is and how far along we are (even if we're proven to be way off).  I've liked the very few details I've seen, and I wish we had many more details, but barring concrete details it'd be nice to have a general sense of how far along the game is.  Is it several months away?  Is it coming out tomorrow?

I'm personally just a fan wanting some information on the game, or at least an explanation of why there's no information or why previous information has proved unreliable.  I'm not trying to complain.  I am a little frustrated, though, that a simple inquiry is greeted by essentially "Tough luck" followed by a flame war.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2012, 10:43:48 am »
0

As my 9 month old says, "Blah blah blah."

My original post wasn't meant to be a complaint but an inquiry, and certainly didn't need to start a flame war.  I'm glad that Donald X. chimed in, even if it was to say that we're getting no more info.  I understand that he's not the right person to ask, but as far as I'm aware, he's the only one who visits this forum who even knows who the developers are, so naturally we do plead with him to be the liaison.

I'm not particularly eager for Isotropic to shut down for a pay option, but I will almost certainly buy the game and I'm eager for details about the game and when I can expect it.  Dominion eats up a lot of my spare time, so I want to know what the future holds.  Further, there was a post mentioning about player-made AIs.  As a nerd, this excites me.

I write software for a living.  I understand that deadlines are pretty fluid with this stuff, but we always have a general sense of what the target date is and how far along we are (even if we're proven to be way off).  I've liked the very few details I've seen, and I wish we had many more details, but barring concrete details it'd be nice to have a general sense of how far along the game is.  Is it several months away?  Is it coming out tomorrow?

I'm personally just a fan wanting some information on the game, or at least an explanation of why there's no information or why previous information has proved unreliable.  I'm not trying to complain.  I am a little frustrated, though, that a simple inquiry is greeted by essentially "Tough luck" followed by a flame war.
Mostly agree with this. But I don't think there was ever a post about player-made AIs. There was a post about AIs, but I got the impression that it was going to be a built-in AI.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2012, 11:09:32 am »
0

...
Mostly agree with this. But I don't think there was ever a post about player-made AIs. There was a post about AIs, but I got the impression that it was going to be a built-in AI.

I was referring to this: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/8421729#8421729.  Given the wording and knowing the practical aspects of implementing such a thing, the feature probably won't make it into the game, but it would be very cool if it did.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2012, 11:17:58 am »
+1

Do you think it's really that hard to make user AIs possible?  rspeer basically did it in his hobby time in a few days.

If you design the system well, a human player is just some thing that takes a (rendered) game state and makes a decision.  A user AI is a thing that takes an (encoded) game state and makes a decision.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2012, 11:22:58 am »
0

Do you think it's really that hard to make user AIs possible?  rspeer basically did it in his hobby time in a few days.

If you design the system well, a human player is just some thing that takes a (rendered) game state and makes a decision.  A user AI is a thing that takes an (encoded) game state and makes a decision.

I agree *very* strongly with this.. it's a feature I'd love to see, and it's really not that hard to code.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2012, 11:24:56 am »
0

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
That is specifically not what I'm saying. I don't know what the deal is here, because nobody's telling us anything.

While I generally don't like to agree much with barsooma, he's correct here I think.

The very fact that no one's saying anything is the PR/marketing falling down on the job.

Look... if RGG had never announced anything until, say, a month before an official release date, everyone here would basically be all <salivate...>  The complaints would be entirely about lack of features, if any features were lacking as compared with isotropic.  No one would be complaining about lack of information.

Instead, we've dealt with nebulous rumors for over a year, I think, at this point.  We've had official PR from RGG (click the PDF links at the bottom) that has gone from "late 2011" to "early 2012," and I think it's reasonable to suggest that Early 2012 ends at the end of this month.  We have a shadowy figure, or figures, or possibly androids or lizard people, programming the game; they won't let their names be released, they won't let a date be released, they won't let any information about the programs be released, and they insist they alone be arbiters of this information.

The blame here does not lie with Donald; he has been extremely frank in basically saying "Look, I can't tell you guys anything."  I've never even seen Donald suggest a date; that's all been straight from RGG!  The problem here is squarely with Jay and RGG, for contracting with such secretive programmers in the first place (I really think this was the most serious mistake), and then for lousy PR management--i.e., telling us that it's coming but that they can't say anything else.

This is a serious PR disaster.  I don't know about anyone else, but RGG has already lost money from me due to this fiasco.

At this point, I'm going to move forward assuming this thing is vaporware.  And if it does come out, they're going to have to seriously impress me to get me to buy it.
Oh, this all seems very likely. I just don't want it to seem that I'm actually pointing the blame here at someone, because I don't know what's really going on. It's possible that someone else actually promised the stuff and didn't deliver. And so while it seems like a sales/marketing/PR problem, because I don't actually know the issue, I can't say that's the case 100%. It does seem that way though, yes.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2012, 11:40:49 am »
0

Quote
Do you think it's really that hard to make user AIs possible?

It could be that part of the AI process is passed to a customized user script, just because it is easier to do that than put everything under AI control. The simulators currently have their own play rules and let users determine purchasing. It also might break some logic loops where card play depends on purchasing and purchasing depends on card play, for example.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2012, 12:25:53 pm »
+1

Do you think it's really that hard to make user AIs possible?  rspeer basically did it in his hobby time in a few days.

If you design the system well, a human player is just some thing that takes a (rendered) game state and makes a decision.  A user AI is a thing that takes an (encoded) game state and makes a decision.

I'm aware of that (and have contributed code to that).  I think there are a lot of practical aspects that make it tricky for the official game, though.  First of all, the official game supposedly runs on every platform under the sun, so you have to expose something that allows user-created AIs to run on every platform as well (possibly including web, which is a big headache).  The user-created AI language needs to be a real programming language, but it needs to be isolated from the rest of the system for security reasons.  You can't just let users run arbitrary code on each others' machines.   It also needs to be isolated from the game's internal API so people can't cheat or monkey with leaderboards or anything.  You probably also care a little about enforcing performance so your app doesn't gain a reputation for being slow or a battery drain because of user-created content.  Then you need some interface for allowing users to publish and find the content.

You could accomplish all of that by carefully embedding a scripting language (Lua or whatever), being careful about which APIs you expose, and ensuring said scripting language works consistently on all available platforms.  It's absolutely doable, but it's a question of cost and time balanced against benefits of the feature.  Is it something that's worth delaying the release for?  Would enough people care to use it?

The AIs themselves would be a lot different than the Dominiate AIs as well, since I assume they couldn't be specific to a couple of key cards.  Writing one would therefore be a lot more work, and the best ones would probably still be pretty bad at the game.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2012, 12:36:20 pm »
0

This:
I don't know what the deal is here, because nobody's telling us anything.
Wouldn't it seem like that should be the marketing guys job though?
Informing customers, drumming up interest, managing expectations?

And this:
The very fact that no one's saying anything is the PR/marketing falling down on the job. ... Instead, we've dealt with nebulous rumors for over a year, I think, at this point. 

And most of all this:
I'm personally just a fan wanting some information on the game, or at least an explanation of why there's no information or why previous information has proved unreliable.  I'm not trying to complain.  I am a little frustrated, though, that a simple inquiry is greeted by essentially "Tough luck" followed by a flame war.
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paddyodoors

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2012, 01:51:07 pm »
0

It's nothing but a cheap rhetorical trick to marginalize complaints by linking them with a political hot-button which has been programmed into us by our corporate overlord media.

+1 for reference to corporate overlord media.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2012, 01:57:34 pm »
0

Maybe they're just waiting for the rest of the expansions to come out...but they could have at least told us that.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2012, 02:29:47 pm »
0

That seems unlikely. We'd heard 'late 2011' and 'early 2012' before, and it would have been clear to everyone that all the expansions wouldn't be out by then.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2012, 02:42:51 pm »
0

Vaporware? Seriously? When was the last time a piece of software was released on schedule?

The vaporware comment is, I'm sure, not simply because the release date has slipped, but because there has been zero communication from the developers about the project. Is could be ready for release next week, but for all the evidence we have it's possible they don't even have a working alpha yet.  The fact that we don't have the faintest idea about what's happening is a major PR screw-up.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2012, 02:54:39 pm »
0

I think somebody - maybe Donald, maybe Jay, maybe someone else posting in an official capacity - once said that they got a chance to play it. I think it's at working alpha stage at least? But I don't have the quote on hand, and I could always be misremembering it.

Well, all we have is rumors anyway.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2012, 03:44:34 pm »
+3

I think somebody - maybe Donald, maybe Jay, maybe someone else posting in an official capacity - once said that they got a chance to play it. I think it's at working alpha stage at least? But I don't have the quote on hand, and I could always be misremembering it.

Well, all we have is rumors anyway.

Jay, in January:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8303649#8303649

"To update you all, we are now (including me) testing the Dominion app and I have been very pleased with the product the licensee has produced. I have played it using Safari, Firefox, iPad, and iPhone and it works well on all these platforms. I am told it works on others, but that is all I have at my immediate disposal. The IA is simple, but will certainly serve to help a new player learn the game and get started. We expect it to be available in the VERY near future and will announce a date as soon as we have one. Thanks!!"

Perhaps vaporware was too strong a word.  Maybe I should have said "I'm going to continue living as if this will never come out."
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2012, 03:48:44 pm »
+1

...I should have said "I'm going to continue living as if this will never come out."
THIS

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2012, 04:17:48 pm »
+7

When Jay Tummelson came to Gamicon in February, his laptop had a working version on it. I even got to play it for a few seconds, but I must say that I was underwhelmed. For what I got to experience of the interface, it didn't feel as intuitive as Isotropic. You had to drag the cards into the play area, which was hard to determine at first play. The presentation was nice (anything with the official artwork is going to be nicer than Isotropic, but that's not especially the point of Iso), but I was expecting something more awesome.

Jay also mentioned that they were trying to make the mechanics of each card as literal as possible, especially in regards to Thief. That means that Treasure cards will indeed be put in the Trash before they can be gained. When I asked about the point of this, Jay hinted that it had something to do with the mechanics of future cards. For those of you who like to speculate about what Dark Ages and The Guilds will have to offer, you're welcome.

I think I mentioned something about how this official app needs to be miles beyond what you can get on Isotropic, and that what I saw wasn't anywhere close. I could be mistaken, though, as I often am. Besides, like I said, I only got a taste of the current product at the time. If that taste is any indication, it'll be a while yet before the official app is anywhere near palatable for us Isotropic addicts.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2012, 04:33:55 pm »
0

Jay also mentioned that they were trying to make the mechanics of each card as literal as possible, especially in regards to Thief. That means that Treasure cards will indeed be put in the Trash before they can be gained. When I asked about the point of this, Jay hinted that it had something to do with the mechanics of future cards. For those of you who like to speculate about what Dark Ages and The Guilds will have to offer, you're welcome.

Even for existing cards (e.g. Trader), this should work as it is written on the card.

EDIT: Also, I'm fine with having to drag cards into the play area. That's how it works on the unofficial iOS app and it's not onerous. However, the official version should have a 'play all your basic Treasure cards' button like there is in isotropic. The unofficial app basically just has your (publicly viewable) coin value for the turn fluctuate as Treasures come and go from your hand, which obviously won't fly for the official app.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 04:37:26 pm by LastFootnote »
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Forge!!!

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2012, 04:45:20 pm »
+4

The worse the official app is, the less likely it is that I'll keep my interest in Dominion, and the less likely I'll be to buy Dark Ages/Guilds/the app itself. RGG may not owe anything to us, but I personally feel very strongly that they owe a lot to Isotropic and similar sites in terms of game popularity and sales. I have nothing but anecdotal evidence and theories to back this up, of course. I know a decent amount of people in the same vein as me who went out and bought expansions after they became addicted to the game through Isotropic. I don't think the regional qualifier event I just went to would have had enough people (4? 5 maybe?) without it. I understand the need to appeal to the casual player, but especially for an online app and especially because it will be replacing Isotropic, there has to be an appeal to the committed player as well. It doesn't need super-difficult AI, but I think the online should have everything the more committed player wants. I'm not saying this is in any way what we are "owed", I just think it makes good business sense, and is important to keep up the large popularity Dominion currently has.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2012, 04:59:25 pm »
0

Eh, I'm pretty hooked, I'll probably end up getting all the remaining expansions even if the app isn't good.

But, come on guys. We don't need to assume the app is bad. The only thing we know so far about the app is it's got secretive and vague and annoying PR. And, I guess, draggable cards? But I bet the interface wasn't finalized at the time, so we don't really know that either.
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Forge!!!

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2012, 05:18:25 pm »
+2

Eh, I'm pretty hooked, I'll probably end up getting all the remaining expansions even if the app isn't good.

But, come on guys. We don't need to assume the app is bad. The only thing we know so far about the app is it's got secretive and vague and annoying PR. And, I guess, draggable cards? But I bet the interface wasn't finalized at the time, so we don't really know that either.

Oh I agree, and I think I'll be perfectly happy with the app, but I also think there's been somewhat an attitude of "you should be happy with what you get, you aren't owed anything", and I think that's a silly attitude. It stems from the idea that Isotropic never had to come out in the first place (could have never been created or RGG/Donald could have said to take it down), and then we wouldn't be worried about this app being up to par to anything and it wouldn't have all these expectations it has now. I'm saying Dominion has gotten to the popularity it has gotten to because of the quality of Isotropic and similar sites, and if the official app isn't up to par I think the popularity is going to slowly slip back down, and that isn't going to be because of a bunch of entitled players yelling boo-urns.

 (as a disclaimer I'd like to point out that the game is fantastic and was going to be wonderfully successful no matter what. Online play has just given it an even bigger boost)
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blueblimp

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2012, 05:44:26 pm »
0

I'm fine with having to drag cards into the play area. That's how it works on the unofficial iOS app and it's not onerous.

On a touchscreen, maybe it'd be okay, but dragging with mouse is pretty annoying. It seems pointless since it's not like there's any reason you'd click/tap a card except to play it. (Excepting, of course, as yet unreleased reactions.)
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2012, 06:03:50 pm »
0

You had to drag the cards into the play area, which was hard to determine at first play.

Anything that adds unnecessary repetitive motion is ridiculous.  Hopefully that will get changed.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2012, 06:19:49 pm »
+1

Hotkeys for everything!!!
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2012, 06:27:13 pm »
+1

Ascension and Nightfall by playdek on iOS require dragging cards to the play area and they tend to be largely thought very highly of when it comes to UI. So I don't see dragging being a big deal especially since they are targeting multiple platforms here. I'm sure the Web/PC version will have a click interface.

The thing that has me the most scared about this app is how the pricing will be determined. Will I have to buy it for my iPhone and my PC? or will the app be free and have me pay for a user account? Will I have to IAP all the expansions again or do they come as a cost with the game?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #78 on: April 26, 2012, 11:40:59 pm »
0

The thing that has me the most scared about this app is how the pricing will be determined. Will I have to buy it for my iPhone and my PC? or will the app be free and have me pay for a user account? Will I have to IAP all the expansions again or do they come as a cost with the game?

When talking about the official version, either Jay or Donald (can't remember) referred to it as a 'site', so I imagine it'll be a single account that you can access from multiple platforms. I hope this ends up being the case so that if they charge per expansion, you'd only have to buy each once. However, this implementation also opens up the possibility of charging a monthly or yearly fee for use of the site.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2012, 02:09:06 am »
+1

dougz also definitely referred to a site in his reddit AMA
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ftl

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2012, 02:59:45 am »
+2

Hey, so according to that there are multiple developers, and they have an office, and most importantly, they read these forums! That's cool.

'sup dudes! :)
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Ferrouswheel

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2012, 01:08:47 pm »
+1

"goodness of their hearts" wa reference to the recent complaining about Iso and DougZ.

Take a minute to review your post. Where did it make any reference to Iso and DougZ? You brought up exactly 2 entities - RGG and Donald X. - in the paragraph preceding the quoted statement; how was I supposed to infer that this was a reference to Iso and DougZ?

I think we've established a clear difference in a certain other thread between being critical and being malicious. The only thing preventing people from presenting their honest opinions is the censure that they receive for being ostensibly untactful. But seriously - something's quite not right here regarding the release of the official app, and it should be known, preferably in a nice, civilized manner.

Debatably the point is that Donald X. and DougZ are the same person. The hints have been there all along. After all, Dominion also begins with a 'D' as does developer. Developer describes the postion that DougZ and Donald X. both do. If we want to determine who develops Dominion then we need to look for a developer whose name begins with D.


Now that I've realized this, if the developer's name actually begins with D, I'm going to sell all of my dominion, buy a tin foil hat, and move to Tibet.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2012, 04:39:44 am »
0

Debatably the point is that Donald X. and DougZ are the same person. The hints have been there all along. After all, Dominion also begins with a 'D' as does developer. Developer describes the postion that DougZ and Donald X. both do. If we want to determine who develops Dominion then we need to look for a developer whose name begins with D.

Nah.  Pictures of both of them are online in various places.  And I don't think DonaldX likes chicken as much as DougZ does.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2012, 04:42:10 am »
+1

It's either a split personality, or one of them murdered the other and stole the other's identity.

I watch crime shows, I know those are the most likely options.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2012, 05:00:32 am »
0

No, they are both future incarnations of The Doctor, also starting with D.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2012, 05:05:41 am »
+1

Donald X is a Time Lord. I should add that to the appropriate TVTropes page.
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The 9th Doctor

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2012, 02:56:03 pm »
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No, they are both future incarnations of The Doctor, also starting with D.
[shifty eyes]
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2012, 03:03:00 pm »
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No, they are both future incarnations of The Doctor, also starting with D.
[shifty eyes]
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olneyce

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2012, 03:26:37 pm »
+2

No, they are both future incarnations of The Doctor, also starting with D.
[shifty eyes]
Really olneyce, you need two accounts here, too?
Doctor Who references are comedy gold. 
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theory

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2012, 11:19:30 am »
0

I don't understand why you all have alternate accounts on Isotropic.  It doesn't bother me, I'm just curious as to their purpose.  Clean CouncilRoom profile?  Experimenting with crazy strategies and/or 3p-4p?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2012, 11:44:54 am »
0

If I wanted to experiment, I would do it with specific cards, or on an unregistered account - it won't be ranked.
I do have a separate account for 3-4 player, I've played 109 games on it. Well, they're very different games, and I also wanted to feel out how I thought the ranking system matched up - whether it was easier/harder to get high in 3/4 than in 2p

ecq

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2012, 12:00:04 pm »
0

I don't understand why you all have alternate accounts on Isotropic.  It doesn't bother me, I'm just curious as to their purpose.  Clean CouncilRoom profile?  Experimenting with crazy strategies and/or 3p-4p?

I play an alternate account exclusively now.  I switched because I was worried about my level too much on my main account and the game stopped being fun because of it.  I was less willing to try interesting things and just have fun with it.  Unfortunately, now I'm worried about my level too much on my alternate account, so that was only a temporary fix.

I also had a new name that I really wanted to use, but I didn't want to release my old name because it's associated with my posts here and my CouncilRoom history.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2012, 12:19:56 pm »
0

Well, they're very different games, and I also wanted to feel out how I thought the ranking system matched up - whether it was easier/harder to get high in 3/4 than in 2p

Care to elaborate on your observations/conclusions?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2012, 12:33:01 pm »
0

Well, they're very different games, and I also wanted to feel out how I thought the ranking system matched up - whether it was easier/harder to get high in 3/4 than in 2p

Care to elaborate on your observations/conclusions?
It's easier to do well in multiplayer. I shot up to level 38 or 39 in like 2-3 days, and I don't know what the heck I'm doing. On the other hand, it's going to be hard to actually take the top, because it's really hard to get games against other highly-ranked multiplayer people. Actually, it's a little hard to get games at all.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2012, 12:41:24 pm »
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You don't need games against highly ranked players to be highly ranked.  You just need to rarely lose.  This is why how win trading accounts can reach the top.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2012, 12:41:38 pm »
0

So do you think your rating in 3p/4p is properly reflective of your abilities in 3p/4p? (I've risked taking your "I dont know what the heck I'm doing" as sincere relative to 3p/4p.  We all know your skill in 2p.)
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2012, 01:01:48 pm »
0

Well, they're very different games, and I also wanted to feel out how I thought the ranking system matched up - whether it was easier/harder to get high in 3/4 than in 2p

Care to elaborate on your observations/conclusions?
It's easier to do well in multiplayer. I shot up to level 38 or 39 in like 2-3 days, and I don't know what the heck I'm doing. On the other hand, it's going to be hard to actually take the top, because it's really hard to get games against other highly-ranked multiplayer people. Actually, it's a little hard to get games at all.

I also wish that it was easier to get multiplayer games in.  I always keep automatch set to accept 3p as well as 2p, and I think there have been like 3 or 4 such games that actually got started that way in the past six months. 

I don't have any alternate accounts, and don't plan on having any.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2012, 02:15:25 pm »
0

I don't understand why you all have alternate accounts on Isotropic.  It doesn't bother me, I'm just curious as to their purpose.  Clean CouncilRoom profile?  Experimenting with crazy strategies and/or 3p-4p?
I created an alternate account right about when I discovered dominionstrategy.com and realized just how little I knew about the game.  So in order to protect my level (which, hilariously, was probably about 27 at the time) I created another account to mess around with.  I really hated the Prosperity cards and was convinced I didn't know how to play them, so I used Prosperity bias.  In fact, after a couple hundred games I realized that I was perfectly fine with all the cards, but it was really helpful to have a 'low-pressure' way of realizing this.  After that, I just play around with the other account 5-10 games at a time, mostly because I think it's fun to watch where the real account and the fake one rank against each other.  My normal one is usually higher, but due almost entirely to the very high variance for the alternate.  The skill of the other account has been equivalent or higher pretty much since that one had 100 games or so.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2012, 05:27:38 pm »
+2

Jay just posted in BGG that they expect to release near Origins (so some time next month).

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/9102653

Has anyone heard of FunSockets? I'm guessing they're the developer?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2012, 06:22:32 am »
0

FunSockets

It looks like they haven't done anything yet, but plan to be a general platform for browser-based games, probably with Dominion as a launch title.  That would explain the secrecy to a degree, and possibly the time delays if they have other things they want to release at the same time.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2012, 10:05:07 am »
0

FunSockets

It looks like they haven't done anything yet, but plan to be a general platform for browser-based games, probably with Dominion as a launch title.  That would explain the secrecy to a degree, and possibly the time delays if they have other things they want to release at the same time.

The social features the website lists looks promising, with leaderboard and achievements and user data like councilroom.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2012, 02:24:07 pm »
0

Well, at least we know how it's likely to be paid for:

"Greg Mills
VP of Monetization
Greg has seventeen years of marketing, advertising and business experience in the games industry. Prior to FunSockets, Greg oversaw business development and advertising strategy for Digital Chocolate’s social and mobile gaming business."

I'd rather have paid 20 bucks than deal with targeted advertising.

Oh wait.  I have AdBlock.  Never mind then.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2012, 04:01:36 pm »
0

Hopefully there is an option to pay for an ad-less version. I'd do it. That would be a good situation: an ad-supported version will bring in a lot of players, and a paid option will be less annoying for frequent users. If there were only a paid version, it might not attract enough players, especially off-peak.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2012, 04:15:53 pm »
0

FunSockets

It looks like they haven't done anything yet, but plan to be a general platform for browser-based games, probably with Dominion as a launch title.  That would explain the secrecy to a degree, and possibly the time delays if they have other things they want to release at the same time.
Looks like they might be launching Citadels too? http://sandbox.funsockets.com/
It's basically the first search result for "funsockets dominion". 
I doubt they want this available to the public and already emailed them about it, but I thought I might as well share it anyway.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2012, 05:16:56 pm »
0

If you wanted to overinterpret things, you could ask the question which professional developer makes the mistake to accidentally have things like this publically available if they don't want to. There seems to be some substantial amount of source code and you can even access some lobby like room for Citadels, so unless they intended this to be an open source project, this leaves me wondering.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2012, 06:11:16 pm »
0

dominion.funsockets.com exists also... unfortunately username/password protected.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2012, 10:35:32 pm »
+1

Wow! Actual information!

"Leaderboards" is front and center on their teaser page. That is reassuring.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2012, 11:16:52 pm »
+2

Oh god. Why do I keep reading BGG threads? All that ever happens is I remember why not to read BGG threads.

There are multiple people there who are upset that it will not be exclusive to iOS. A replacement for Isotropic, and they wanted it to run only on their portable Apple products.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2012, 11:38:51 pm »
+1

Oh god. Why do I keep reading BGG threads? All that ever happens is I remember why not to read BGG threads.

There are multiple people there who are upset that it will not be exclusive to iOS. A replacement for Isotropic, and they wanted it to run only on their portable Apple products.

Yeah, that's... amusing.  Sort of.  I especially like the "well you can already play at BSW!" one.  What the hell, people?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #109 on: May 06, 2012, 11:39:21 pm »
0

Oh god. Why do I keep reading BGG threads? All that ever happens is I remember why not to read BGG threads.

There are multiple people there who are upset that it will not be exclusive to iOS. A replacement for Isotropic, and they wanted it to run only on their portable Apple products.

I agree with you, but it'd be totally doable to offer both a web app and a native iOS client. That said, it's possible to make very nice iOS-targeted web clients, so I'm optimistic.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #110 on: May 06, 2012, 11:42:13 pm »
0

Oh god. Why do I keep reading BGG threads? All that ever happens is I remember why not to read BGG threads.

There are multiple people there who are upset that it will not be exclusive to iOS. A replacement for Isotropic, and they wanted it to run only on their portable Apple products.

You have any links to these imaginary threads? All I've seen is people complaining about that iOS version of the game being a web-based app rather than a native iOS app.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2012, 11:44:48 pm »
0

Oh god. Why do I keep reading BGG threads? All that ever happens is I remember why not to read BGG threads.

There are multiple people there who are upset that it will not be exclusive to iOS. A replacement for Isotropic, and they wanted it to run only on their portable Apple products.

You have any links to these imaginary threads? All I've seen is people complaining about that iOS version of the game being a web-based app rather than a native iOS app.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/9106287#9106287
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/9108784#9108784
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/9108856#9108856
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #112 on: May 07, 2012, 01:06:05 am »
+1

Thinking there should be a distinct iOS version: sure, okay, that is at least a sane position to take. A naive position, but a sane one.

It's very rare to see a multiplayer game with distinct implementations that interoperate with each other, because the cost of developing it is so high, and the historical success rate of making it work correctly is so low.

This company is making a very wise choice by making an HTML5 platform they can use everywhere.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #113 on: May 07, 2012, 01:49:44 am »
0

Theres nothing wrong with wanting an iOS specific version. Look at Shadow Era it has a successful application on Android, PC, and iPhone. Additionally Take a look at isotropic. It's great and don't take this as anything other than that but it does have some bugs that make us iPhone users sad (reorganizing cards).

Now, with all that said even though Funsockets appears to be HTML5 only Jay has said that it will be available in the iTunes store and that it will also be available for Android (nothing of the Android store though). So I still have hope there will be separate versions for each.

Also I dont think believing in an ios specific version is a naive position?
Marmalade, Mosync and many other tools allow HTML5/CSS/Javascript development for all platforms at the same time. IE you can make an app in HTML5/Javascript/CSS and have a unique iOS, Android and PC version
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #114 on: May 07, 2012, 02:10:44 am »
0

Theres nothing wrong with wanting an iOS specific version. Look at Shadow Era it has a successful application on Android, PC, and iPhone. Additionally Take a look at isotropic. It's great and don't take this as anything other than that but it does have some bugs that make us iPhone users sad (reorganizing cards).

Now, with all that said even though Funsockets appears to be HTML5 only Jay has said that it will be available in the iTunes store and that it will also be available for Android (nothing of the Android store though). So I still have hope there will be separate versions for each.

Also I dont think believing in an ios specific version is a naive position?
Marmalade, Mosync and many other tools allow HTML5/CSS/Javascript development for all platforms at the same time. IE you can make an app in HTML5/Javascript/CSS and have a unique iOS, Android and PC version

It's possible that's exactly what they're doing, though this now stretches the bounds of my programming knowledge.
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Piemaster

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #115 on: May 07, 2012, 03:12:56 am »
+1

Oh god. Why do I keep reading BGG threads? All that ever happens is I remember why not to read BGG threads.

There are multiple people there who are upset that it will not be exclusive to iOS. A replacement for Isotropic, and they wanted it to run only on their portable Apple products.
I think people that buy iPhones need to see their purchase validated somehow :)
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blueblimp

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #116 on: May 07, 2012, 04:42:14 pm »
+2

Oh god. Why do I keep reading BGG threads? All that ever happens is I remember why not to read BGG threads.

There are multiple people there who are upset that it will not be exclusive to iOS. A replacement for Isotropic, and they wanted it to run only on their portable Apple products.
I think people that buy iPhones need to see their purchase validated somehow :)

Does anyone else see the irony of a (presumably) non-iPhone owner validating his decision to not buy an iPhone by accusing iPhone owners of wanting to validate their decision to buy one...
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DStu

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2012, 04:46:12 pm »
+6

no
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #118 on: May 07, 2012, 04:48:32 pm »
0

ok
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2012, 05:32:30 pm »
0

Thinking there should be a distinct iOS version: sure, okay, that is at least a sane position to take. A naive position, but a sane one.

It's very rare to see a multiplayer game with distinct implementations that interoperate with each other, because the cost of developing it is so high, and the historical success rate of making it work correctly is so low.

This company is making a very wise choice by making an HTML5 platform they can use everywhere.
I dunno, just thinking of Words With Friends... I like how I can play it on my Android phone, or I can go home and play it on my computer, against people on computers and iPads.

I will say that as an owner of a Kindle Fire and an Android phone, I would love to see a native Android version of the game rather than a web interface. Isotropic just barely works on my Fire; it tends to disconnect fairly often and it's pretty frustrating to use, but it can be done. It's been my experience that web interfaces/in-browser apps just don't work that well on mobile devices. So hey, chalk me up as one of those naive people who wants a native app rather than accessing it through a browser.

I suppose since Dominion is not a time-sensitive action game, a browser app COULD work. If they put some good effort into it, I could see it being totally usable on a tablet or phone, much more so than Isotropic. The other advantage to a browser game is that, assuming it is paid or has a paid option, you wouldn't have to pay more than once for multiple devices.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #120 on: May 07, 2012, 05:44:29 pm »
+1

I will say that as an owner of a Kindle Fire and an Android phone, I would love to see a native Android version of the game rather than a web interface. Isotropic just barely works on my Fire; it tends to disconnect fairly often and it's pretty frustrating to use, but it can be done. It's been my experience that web interfaces/in-browser apps just don't work that well on mobile devices.

There have been numerous reports of isotropic running mostly fine on an iPad (with the notable exception of drag-and-drop):
I haven't tried it much, but when I do it seems to work. The response to touch is a little slow, but a targeted webapp can easily fix that by supporting touch events.

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #121 on: May 07, 2012, 06:09:22 pm »
0

Isotropic works ok on iPad.

The only thing I find annoying is interface sometimes gets a bit stuck and I have to type in the chat box to refresh it.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #122 on: May 07, 2012, 06:34:42 pm »
+2

I'm not an anti-Apple troll- my computer is a Mac, for crying out loud.

What I am anti is an iOS-only version which neglects other platforms, for the simple reason that I wouldn't be able to play an iOS-only version.  Secondarily because cross-platform compatibility is important if you want to keep Isotropic's robust leaderboard and high-level, broad-based competition.  That's all.

If they were to come out with different versions of the same program which were native to various platforms, and which could also enable games between platforms, I'd be fine with that.  Makes no difference to me either which way.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #123 on: May 07, 2012, 06:36:05 pm »
+1

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

I know a lot of people who use and like their Apple products.  In most cases, they don't believe iOS is the be-all and end-all of computing.  Some people do, though, and I have a problem with those people.

*I do think, and I think a lot of people agree, that iThings are overpriced for what you get.  I don't need to justify not purchasing an iPhone except by saying "I paid a fifth what you did for my phone."
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #124 on: May 07, 2012, 06:38:23 pm »
+1

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I don't have any problem with that...but a number of the complaints seem to be of the form "why aren't they releasing for iOS exclusively/first?" and some even take the form "the non-iOS market is tiny and should just be ignored". 

I've got no problem with people who run iOS devices, I just don't want Apple's walled garden to drive the development process for the Dominion app.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #125 on: May 07, 2012, 06:40:26 pm »
0

and some even take the form "the non-iOS market is tiny and should just be ignored".

That's my biggest problem with that thread, yes.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #126 on: May 07, 2012, 06:48:22 pm »
+2

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

I know a lot of people who use and like their Apple products.  In most cases, they don't believe iOS is the be-all and end-all of computing.  Some people do, though, and I have a problem with those people.

*I do think, and I think a lot of people agree, that iThings are overpriced for what you get.  I don't need to justify not purchasing an iPhone except by saying "I paid a fifth what you did for my phone."

I don't really understand your argument. People are just concerned that a web app won't run as smoothly as a native app, and that concern is justified. I'm not an iPhone or iPad owner (all my gadgets are Android), but I can understand why they would want a native app instead. Smartphone and tablet owners know that native apps almost always work better with less lag and interface weirdness.

Look, I do not really like fanboys for any platform either, but I don't see how wanting a better experience makes them fanboys. I'm not sure you actually understand why they are making the arguments they're making.

*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets. Obviously a basic feature phone will cost way less than any smartphone. For the sake of this thread I'm just going to leave it at that*

I don't have any problem with that...but a number of the complaints seem to be of the form "why aren't they releasing for iOS exclusively/first?" and some even take the form "the non-iOS market is tiny and should just be ignored". 

I've got no problem with people who run iOS devices, I just don't want Apple's walled garden to drive the development process for the Dominion app.
I'm not seeing that being said or implied in the BGG threads that were linked earlier. They just would like to see a native app, not one person said that they think they ought to develop for iOS exclusively or give them preference in terms of release date and so on.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #127 on: May 07, 2012, 06:56:57 pm »
0

Anti-apple fanbois ae just as bad as apple fanbois these days.

Arguing about whether it would be better on one platform or multi- platform seems to be a bit of a moot point really. The decision would have been made months ago and its hardly likely to change now is it.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #128 on: May 07, 2012, 07:17:56 pm »
+1

*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets. Obviously a basic feature phone will cost way less than any smartphone. For the sake of this thread I'm just going to leave it at that*

My Android phone cost half as much as the same memory iPhone.  I'll admit I know little about the tablet market, as I have exactly zero interest in owning one.

I don't have any problem with that...but a number of the complaints seem to be of the form "why aren't they releasing for iOS exclusively/first?" and some even take the form "the non-iOS market is tiny and should just be ignored". 

I've got no problem with people who run iOS devices, I just don't want Apple's walled garden to drive the development process for the Dominion app.
I'm not seeing that being said or implied in the BGG threads that were linked earlier. They just would like to see a native app, not one person said that they think they ought to develop for iOS exclusively or give them preference in terms of release date and so on.

"The other big factor is simply business. By integrating with the iOS ecosphere, a game company will be able to hit the maximum amount of eyeballs and revenue from iOS users that can possibly be achieved. They'll be integrated in iOS top 10 lists, genius suggestions, featured picks, user reviews, etc. They'll also get all of the free marketing benefits of iOS bloggers and review sites. The same for an Android equivalent in the Android app store(s) and ecosphere. HTML5 however, means largest audience, smallest visibility."

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/9113495#9113495

Anti-apple fanbois ae just as bad as apple fanbois these days.

I was unclear.  I'm not an (anti-Apple) fanboy.  I am anti-(Apple fanboy).  Associative property alas only works in math; my apologies.  I couldn't care less what people use so long as they're not pushing it as the best option based just on the brand.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #129 on: May 07, 2012, 09:35:40 pm »
0

I'm fine with Apple... Phones, Tablets, and Ipods. Please stay the hell away from my computer.  ;D

That being said, it is a bit unrealistic to complain about not having a native iOS app. I don't believe Apple is even a majority anymore in the market (Tablet + Phone), but even if they aren't it's no longer the 90%. Those people are choosing to buy barely-compatible products, they know the risks...

Quote
*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets. Obviously a basic feature phone will cost way less than any smartphone. For the sake of this thread I'm just going to leave it at that*

What's a Kindle Fire?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2012, 02:25:03 am »
+1

*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets.

I'm not sure this is true everywhere.  I know that when I was looking last year, it cost around £5 more per month for an iPhone than the same contract on a Samsung Galaxy S2 (probably the leading Android phone at the time). 

The reason I made my comment about iPhone owners justifying their decision is not a knock on Apple products (I own a couple and am happy with them on the whole) but more a comment about the kind of people (of which I know a few), who tend to buy the latest product just because it's Apple and then try to rationalise later what they actually plan to use it for or why it is better for them than the equivelant non-Apple product.  These kind of people are delighted when something cool is released exclusively on Apple iOS as it acts like a pack of Alkaseltzer on the acid of cognitive dissonance.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 02:30:19 am by Piemaster »
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #131 on: May 08, 2012, 11:01:30 am »
+1

I am deeply sorry for anyone who had to read that BGG thread because f.ds was down yesterday.

I am an anti-(Apple fanboy), but I get the desire to appeal to iOS first.  App developers hate developing for Android.   But those apps that have cross-platform play do very well (think WWF).  In other words, Android+iOS > iOS > Android, so HTML5 > native iOS
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #132 on: May 08, 2012, 02:59:23 pm »
0

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

+1 for a totally straight-faced use of the word 'hipsterism'.  ... my sides!  ;D ;D ;D
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #133 on: May 08, 2012, 03:13:53 pm »
+1

There is nothing more hipster than complaining about hipsters.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #134 on: May 08, 2012, 03:21:20 pm »
+3

There is nothing more hipster than complaining about hipsters.

That's so mainstream now.  I was complaining about hipsters before it was cool.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #135 on: May 08, 2012, 03:23:51 pm »
0

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

I know a lot of people who use and like their Apple products.  In most cases, they don't believe iOS is the be-all and end-all of computing.  Some people do, though, and I have a problem with those people.

*I do think, and I think a lot of people agree, that iThings are overpriced for what you get.  I don't need to justify not purchasing an iPhone except by saying "I paid a fifth what you did for my phone."

Care to give an explanation of the popularity of the app "Dominion by Donald X. Vaccarino", despite the fact that isotropic has multiplayer, all the cards and was available years earlier?
Bonus points if you can avoid mentioning the interface issues isotropic experiences AS A NON-NATIVE APP.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #136 on: May 08, 2012, 04:15:44 pm »
0

Care to give an explanation of the popularity of the app "Dominion by Donald X. Vaccarino", despite the fact that isotropic has multiplayer, all the cards and was available years earlier?
Bonus points if you can avoid mentioning the interface issues isotropic experiences AS A NON-NATIVE APP.

i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have ever heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.

and isotropic wasn't originally developed with multiple platforms in mind. i'm pretty sure dougz has stated that he developed for use with chrome in mind. the official app on the other hand, was explicitly stated to be able to work on multiple platforms. i can only recall two issues (lobby and rearranging card order) that are problems on iOS. for something that is a couple of years old, non-commercial, and not actively targeting multiple platforms...that seems fine to me.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:44:40 pm by greatexpectations »
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #137 on: May 08, 2012, 04:18:40 pm »
0

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

I know a lot of people who use and like their Apple products.  In most cases, they don't believe iOS is the be-all and end-all of computing.  Some people do, though, and I have a problem with those people.

*I do think, and I think a lot of people agree, that iThings are overpriced for what you get.  I don't need to justify not purchasing an iPhone except by saying "I paid a fifth what you did for my phone."

Care to give an explanation of the popularity of the app "Dominion by Donald X. Vaccarino", despite the fact that isotropic has multiplayer, all the cards and was available years earlier?
Bonus points if you can avoid mentioning the interface issues isotropic experiences AS A NON-NATIVE APP.

There's a huge difference between running isotropic on iOS and running an iOS-optimized web app on iOS. Off the top of my head:
  • Isotropic doesn't size itself to fit the screen. An iOS-optimized web app would obviously do this.
  • Isotropic responds slowly to taps because it listens for click events. An iOS-optimized web app would listen for touch events, so it would respond instantly.
  • Isotropic can't be played offline. Web apps can be implemented to be usable offline (by caching).
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #138 on: May 08, 2012, 04:31:22 pm »
0


i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have never heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.


Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:39:59 pm by barsooma »
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #139 on: May 08, 2012, 04:54:25 pm »
0

Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.

i don't have an iPhone or iPad, so my only knowledge of it would be mentions on here or on BGG.  and i would likely confuse it with one of the other apps or ways to play dominion online or via app. i didn't know what it was, and you were the one who described it as 'popular', so the burden is on you to defend that statement.

i just looked up the app, and judging from the screenshots and commentary it only seems to use base set and has problems with multiplayer.  some might prefer that to isotropic, but it is still comparing apples to oranges.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2012, 05:00:17 pm »
0

Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.

i don't have an iPhone or iPad, so my only knowledge of it would be mentions on here or on BGG.  and i would likely confuse it with one of the other apps or ways to play dominion online or via app. i didn't know what it was, and you were the one who described it as 'popular', so the burden is on you to defend that statement.

i just looked up the app, and judging from the screenshots and commentary it only seems to use base set and has problems with multiplayer.  some might prefer that to isotropic, but it is still comparing apples to oranges.

Ok, so you are unfamiliar with the relevant discussions. How about you stop replying to a comment that was directed to someone else entirely?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2012, 05:05:37 pm »
0


i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have never heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.


Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.

Good for them? At the end of the day you are comparing an app made for a device against a program NEVER designed to be played on it.

And even with that TERRIBLE comparison, Iso works pretty damn well, even though it's not perfect. However, the comparison that matters is how an app made for a device works compared to a program designed to be played on it. Given how few flaws iso already has, and how old it is, my GENERAL thought is that these people who believe the world revolves around them need to get their panties out of a knot.

The time and effort is being put in to make this a program that WORKS FOR EVERYONE. There is already a sound base to start from (if they choose) in iso.

And FWIW, I use an Android phone, iPad, and PC running Mozilla. Androminion is well done. Dominion on the iPad is less well done (imho), but I appreciate the effort (even if the artwork is used against the wishes of Donald and RGG), and far ahead of both is Isotropic.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2012, 05:10:25 pm »
0

The main reason I have so many games made on the iphone app is simply because it plays offline (albeit a terrible AI half the time) and it passes the time on the train.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2012, 05:11:17 pm »
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Good for them? At the end of the day you are comparing an app made for a device against a program NEVER designed to be played on it.

And even with that TERRIBLE comparison, Iso works pretty damn well, even though it's not perfect. However, the comparison that matters is how an app made for a device works compared to a program designed to be played on it. Given how few flaws iso already has, and how old it is, my GENERAL thought is that these people who believe the world revolves around them need to get their panties out of a knot.

The time and effort is being put in to make this a program that WORKS FOR EVERYONE. There is already a sound base to start from (if they choose) in iso.

And FWIW, I use an Android phone, iPad, and PC running Mozilla. Androminion is well done. Dominion on the iPad is less well done (imho), but I appreciate the effort (even if the artwork is used against the wishes of Donald and RGG), and far ahead of both is Isotropic.

You people really have no reading comprehension, do you?
Obviously isotropic is better than this app, that's half my point.
But even so, many people vocally prefer it to isotropic, which means that there is another factor in play here.
Some possibilities:
   "look and feel" of a native app
   exposure on the iOS App Store
   offline play

These are things which are worth consideration, and telling people to "get their panties out of a knot" is rude and unhelpful.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:14:21 pm by barsooma »
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2012, 05:17:41 pm »
0

The main reason I have so many games made on the iphone app is simply because it plays offline (albeit a terrible AI half the time) and it passes the time on the train.

That's the only reason I have 2,000+ games on Androminion. Iso just doesn't work well on Android. That and places where there is a lack of connection. I often use it to fine tune solo challenge solutions, even though it requires a bot. If I remove attacks or play against the BM bot...

Still, once I have a program that WILL work on my phone, it won't see much more use.
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TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2012, 05:24:45 pm »
0

   "look and feel" of a native app
   exposure on the iOS App Store
   offline play

All three of these can be achieved with a web app that is designed specifically for iOS, except for a bit of loss on look and feel, but in a game you don't want the default platform widgets anyway. It can be put in the app store via a shell app. And offline play is possible by caching.

To be fair, here's an argument against using a web interface. Some of the points don't apply to a game like Dominion, but some do.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2012, 08:20:57 pm »
+1


i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have never heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.


Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern.
Great! Why are you posting here again?

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #147 on: May 08, 2012, 08:38:54 pm »
+1

I think the big problem here is that the different groups of people are arguing different things. Some people (not many) are basically arguing 'I hate apple'. Some people are arguing 'I don't care about this.' Some people are arguing 'I hate people who are crazy gaga over apple. But most of the people fall into one of these camps:
1. "I want it to be an iOS version, that's native to iOS. If there are other platforms, that's ok too, but I want an app that's native to iOS, because that will definitely work best on my iOS device. Anything else will give me worse performance."
2. "I don't really care about your iOS stuff. I don't have an iOS device, and I want to be able to use the product. having more people be able to use the thing is more important than optimizing the little tiny niceties in ONE VERSION that only a fraction, even if it's a substantial one, of the people will use."

____________________
The thing is, I don't think anybody's arguing that it won't work better on iOS devices if there's an app native to that environment. Like, obviously it will (I guess there'd be some ways that it might work equally well, but... eh, it's going to work at least as well, almost certainly better, in a system it's natively designed for). But that's not really the point is. The point is "Ok... so what?" Because, they're not out to make the best rootin' tootin' iOS dominion app they can. They're out to make a way for people to play dominion on-line. There are other people besides you who also want to play this game. They're catering not only to your market, but to that larger market. If they develop an iOS app, then you get your program to work a bit better, have a few nicer features maybe. People without iOS products, though, would get MUCH WORSE quality - they wouldn't get to use the product at all. So, this is going to sound a little blunt, but this whole outrage (I should point out here that I think it's actually quite few of the people who are outraged - many more fall in the ambivalent camp) is a bit childish. Yeah, you've got a rich and powerful daddy. That doesn't mean you get to have all the nicest little toys in the kingdom and exactly everything you want; you'll get stuff, but there are other kids want toys, too. It's like, the product that everyone else is getting isn't nice enough for you, and you somehow feel entitled (using this word, once again, to refer to the outraged people; if you're outraged, you have a reason, and it belies a sense of entitlement; most people, I think don't feel entitled, though they may quite reasonably WANT something nicer for themselves, without particularly feeling they have sufficient reason to EXPECT it) to something nicer, but for no reason. Seriously, this is my question to these people: Why? Why should you get something nicer?

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2012, 08:42:39 pm »
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blah blah blah

TL;DR:
WanderingWinder feels ENTITLED to an app for his non-iOS device, even though Apple completely dominates the market of for-pay apps, and any company with the slightest sense of market realities will cater to them.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #149 on: May 08, 2012, 09:08:09 pm »
0

blah blah blah

TL;DR:
WanderingWinder feels ENTITLED to an app for his non-iOS device, even though Apple completely dominates the market of for-pay apps, and any company with the slightest sense of market realities will cater to them.
Actually, I don't. I don't feel entitled to being able to play dominion online at all. I don't feel entitled to having the internet, air conditioning, heating... I think about what it was like 300 years ago and... well, I think most people should have it better now, but really with all the disease and poverty and starvation in the world, I'm not going to get really upset over something like this either way. The people I describe as feeling entitled above are those who are outraged. I'm not outraged here - I think people are being a bit childish, but you know, people do that all the time. And it's not really hurting all that much. Just a bit annoying.

If you would have read it, you would see that I'm not actually arguing FOR something there, just AGAINST the 'we get everything the way we want it' deal. You're quite wrong with that apple "dominates" the market of for-pay apps - they may have the largest chunk of the market, by a pretty big margin, but they don't 'dominate' it. The anti-trust people would be all over them if they actually did... However, that's largely a matter of semantics, and pretty irrelevant anyway.
While you're busy insulting the companies actually making this product, you're missing the point. I actually had it above, too, but it got buried in a wall of text, so:

It's not about making an app. It's about making a product.

So, a large part of their business is to make it available just online to people with PCs. Oh look, there are lots more people with PCs than with iPhones. Funny. Actually that's not even relevant either. The relevant thing is the demographics of who is likely to buy this thing at what prices if it's made in the various different ways, run that counter to the amount of resources that you'd need to put into making it in each of the different ways, and add in the good-will or bad-will of making it one way as opposed to another.
You know what, I don't really have much idea what these numbers work out to be. My gut would tell me it's going to be much better for them to make something people can play from browsers, because you get the same basic functionality all over the place, and people who go on browsers is a much much bigger market than people who go on iOS devices, and I tend to doubt that the added functionality will really turn that many people off from buying the thing, and I REALLY doubt that very many people AT ALL would pay more for it. Ideally, you'd have lots of different interfacing things for the different native environments, of course. But I doubt that that would make a whole lot of sense, because again, I don't see the added benefits of making the specific different versions being enough to justify writing so many different programs. Now, maybe it's not that hard to do, and certainly making it for 5 platforms say, should be much less work than 5 times making it for one, but I don't see much added benefit at all. But like I say, I don't know. I expect you don't really know either, though I could be wrong? Have you done a lot of marketing research with board game markets? If so, could you elucidate me? Thanks. If not, I'm going to put a little more faith in what they think is best for their companies over what you think is best for their companies. Simply because they are their companies, not yours, and you've produced, oh, zero data.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2012, 09:24:37 pm »
0

I don't see the added benefits of making the specific different versions being enough to justify writing so many different programs. Now, maybe it's not that hard to do, and certainly making it for 5 platforms say, should be much less work than 5 times making it for one, but I don't see much added benefit at all.

Well, the thing is here is that if the mobile clients are of high-quality, it might not save that much effort. It wouldn't surprise me if mobile devices see a completely different site than desktop browsers. After all, the screen size is different, the input method is different, etc. So at minimum, the mobile and PC clients are going to be almost entirely different.

It may save effort by not requiring writing both iOS and Android versions, I guess. If there's no trade-off in quality, then that might be worth it. IMX writing simple HTML games to play on my iPhone/iPad, it's possible to achieve perfectly acceptable quality, so that's why I'm optimistic.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2012, 09:42:41 pm »
+1

Care to give an explanation of the popularity of the app "Dominion by Donald X. Vaccarino", despite the fact that isotropic has multiplayer, all the cards and was available years earlier?
Bonus points if you can avoid mentioning the interface issues isotropic experiences AS A NON-NATIVE APP.

Bah, I know, I'm replying to barsooma for some reason... but his question was technically directed at me.  In any case, though, this has basically been answered above:  it's not popular, at least, not compared to isotropic, and that is the only comparison that should matter to the developer.

Consider:  The iOS version has ~2500 ratings, which likely means ~5000 downloads.  About 600 games per day played since release.
Isotropic has ~8500 people active just in the last ten days, with who knows how many total inactive players; I'm willing to bet on ~20k.  20k games played per day.

Let's pretend you're a developer.  Which market do you go after?

That said, as WW says, presumably they have done their own market research.  We've been told they watch these forums.  They know who their core market is.

----

2. "I don't really care about your iOS stuff. I don't have an iOS device, and I want to be able to use the product. having more people be able to use the thing is more important than optimizing the little tiny niceties in ONE VERSION that only a fraction, even if it's a substantial one, of the people will use."

That's where I stand, at least.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #152 on: May 08, 2012, 09:54:54 pm »
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I don't understand why you all have alternate accounts on Isotropic.  It doesn't bother me, I'm just curious as to their purpose.  Clean CouncilRoom profile?  Experimenting with crazy strategies and/or 3p-4p?

Schizophrenia
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #153 on: May 08, 2012, 10:58:51 pm »
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blah blah blah

TL;DR:
WanderingWinder feels ENTITLED to an app for his non-iOS device, even though Apple completely dominates the market of for-pay apps, and any company with the slightest sense of market realities will cater to them.

Just to confirm, Gaming companies shouldn't both computer games to work on Macs then, right? Because among gamers.. certainly the bias is even more towards PCs than your case is towards Apple.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #154 on: May 08, 2012, 11:49:45 pm »
+2

I am deeply sorry for anyone who had to read that BGG thread because f.ds was down yesterday.

What makes this comment so hilarious is that this thread has gotten at least as bad.
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #155 on: May 08, 2012, 11:56:50 pm »
0

I am deeply sorry for anyone who had to read that BGG thread because f.ds was down yesterday.

What makes this comment so hilarious is that this thread has gotten at least as bad.

To be fair, it's mostly been fueled by the local troll who still seems capable of getting bites. I think for almost all the regulars here this is a non-issue.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

theory

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #156 on: May 08, 2012, 11:57:52 pm »
0

I am deeply sorry for anyone who had to read that BGG thread because f.ds was down yesterday.

What makes this comment so hilarious is that this thread has gotten at least as bad.
Isotropic V2 + Android v iOS = a toxic combination?
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dondon151

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #157 on: May 08, 2012, 11:59:38 pm »
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To be fair, it's mostly been fueled by the local troll who still seems capable of getting bites. I think for almost all the regulars here this is a non-issue.

So every dissenting opinion belongs to a troll? Just for the record, this thread was "bad" enough as is before barsooma started posting in it.
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #158 on: May 09, 2012, 12:06:39 am »
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To be fair, it's mostly been fueled by the local troll who still seems capable of getting bites. I think for almost all the regulars here this is a non-issue.

So every dissenting opinion belongs to a troll? Just for the record, this thread was "bad" enough as is before barsooma started posting in it.

No, nor was my comment directed at anyone other than Barsooma, as you're obviously well aware. And yes, he rarely does anything but troll.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #159 on: May 09, 2012, 12:27:13 am »
0

To be fair, it's mostly been fueled by the local troll who still seems capable of getting bites. I think for almost all the regulars here this is a non-issue.

So every dissenting opinion belongs to a troll? Just for the record, this thread was "bad" enough as is before barsooma started posting in it.

No, nor was my comment directed at anyone other than Barsooma, as you're obviously well aware. And yes, he rarely does anything but troll.
Eh, I just double-checked by going back and re-reading all of his posts. A lot of them might be trolling, but a lot of them really really aren't.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #160 on: May 10, 2012, 08:45:44 am »
+3

So I was looking on the funsockets website at the Careers section and noticed an entry for a Java developer, so I'm guessing the back-end is written in Java.  I've had my website up for a while now (http://kingdom.servegame.org), and the server side is written in Java, the front-end is done with html, and there is a mobile version of the site. Similar to isotropic it is just running on a computer at my house. However I've noticed that isotropic is much more responsive, and can handle a lot more users than my website, so hopefully the people at funsockets have done a better job at developing a solution that can scale.  Anyway just thought people might be interested since the official version will probably be using similar technologies.
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blueblimp

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #161 on: May 10, 2012, 10:57:49 am »
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The isotropic backend is written in Python. Python (though I love it very much) is about as slow as it gets. Attribute isotropic's scalability to implementer skill and not choice of programming language. :)
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Kirian

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #162 on: May 10, 2012, 11:16:39 am »
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The isotropic backend is written in Python. Python (though I love it very much) is about as slow as it gets. Attribute isotropic's scalability to implementer skill and not choice of programming language. :)

Someone mentioned being particularly amazed that the entire isotropic server--at least, the part dougz made open source--is something like 400 lines of code total.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #163 on: May 10, 2012, 11:28:50 am »
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But the part he open sourced was just a framework and included no Dominion logic.
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icesphere

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #164 on: May 10, 2012, 11:55:09 am »
+1

Yep dougz is a smart guy, I doubt I would be able to get a job at google  :P

I'm guessing if someone smarter than me looked at my code they could make it more scalable pretty easily. I'm sure I could improve it as well, but it's hard to be motivated to change things when you know that an official version is coming out soon.

I'm also surprised that funsockets is taking so long, I just implemented the website in my free time, and it includes most of the cards, plus several fan cards, plus an AI, that while not great, almost 40% of games that included an AI player have been won by an AI player. They must be spending a lot of time on things like payment, leader boards, etc.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 12:25:34 pm by icesphere »
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theory

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #165 on: May 10, 2012, 12:04:46 pm »
+1

The isotropic backend is written in Python. Python (though I love it very much) is about as slow as it gets. Attribute isotropic's scalability to implementer skill and not choice of programming language. :)

Someone mentioned being particularly amazed that the entire isotropic server--at least, the part dougz made open source--is something like 400 lines of code total.
I think he was referring to this:

Code: [Select]
the number of lines of code for each set:

 108 basic.py
 255 promo.py
 386 alchemy.py
 440 guilds.py
 527 cornucopia.py
 579 base_set.py
 665 intrigue.py
 728 seaside.py
 765 prosperity.py
 828 hinterlands.py
1561 darkages.py

6842 total

Which is indeed pretty cool.
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chogg

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #166 on: May 10, 2012, 12:17:28 pm »
+2

Where can I download darkages.py?
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theory

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2012, 12:19:26 pm »
+12

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2012, 12:34:51 pm »
0

What can such a ridiculous jump in code needed be caused by? Complex interactions with other cards?
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Kirian

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #170 on: May 10, 2012, 12:37:45 pm »
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What can such a ridiculous jump in code needed be caused by? Complex interactions with other cards?

It's been implied that Dark Ages is a 500-card set but with no base cards.  So, presumably 40+ new kingdom cards.
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Kirian

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #171 on: May 10, 2012, 12:38:36 pm »
+1

http://dominion.isotropic.org/darkages.py

It says something about my time on the internet that I can recognize the start of that URL (after the ?) and know not to click on it.
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Ghritke

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #172 on: May 10, 2012, 12:54:19 pm »
0

So I was looking on the funsockets website at the Careers section and noticed an entry for a Java developer, so I'm guessing the back-end is written in Java.  I've had my website up for a while now (http://kingdom.servegame.org), and the server side is written in Java, the front-end is done with html, and there is a mobile version of the site. Similar to isotropic it is just running on a computer at my house. However I've noticed that isotropic is much more responsive, and can handle a lot more users than my website, so hopefully the people at funsockets have done a better job at developing a solution that can scale.  Anyway just thought people might be interested since the official version will probably be using similar technologies.
Wow! Great job with this. It will take a while for me to get used to, but so far its been a lot of fun.
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DStu

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #173 on: May 10, 2012, 01:03:14 pm »
0

The isotropic backend is written in Python. Python (though I love it very much) is about as slow as it gets. Attribute isotropic's scalability to implementer skill and not choice of programming language. :)

Someone mentioned being particularly amazed that the entire isotropic server--at least, the part dougz made open source--is something like 400 lines of code total.
I think he was referring to this:

Code: [Select]
the number of lines of code for each set:

 108 basic.py
 255 promo.py
 386 alchemy.py
 440 guilds.py
 527 cornucopia.py
 579 base_set.py
 665 intrigue.py
 728 seaside.py
 765 prosperity.py
 828 hinterlands.py
1561 darkages.py

6842 total

Which is indeed pretty cool.
I think you can programm Dominioncards on a really small space, because they themself are just little programms. Dominiate's card definition has 2794 loc including comments, there are some cards missing still (about 10 or so), but that's more because of problems with the AI. Some things are also somewhere else, e.g. Outposts logic is mostly done by the game state, but I'm not really surprised that you can do the cards on 30 lines of code on average.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 01:07:25 pm by DStu »
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DStu

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #174 on: May 10, 2012, 01:04:33 pm »
0

It says something about my time on the internet that I can recognize the start of that URL (after the ?) and know not to click on it.

still:
Quote
Dieses Video ist in deinem Land nicht verfügbar.
Das tut uns leid.

:e The live version also works in Germany, and maybe Kirian doesn't know the url yet...
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blueblimp

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #175 on: May 10, 2012, 07:19:19 pm »
0

So I was looking on the funsockets website at the Careers section and noticed an entry for a Java developer, so I'm guessing the back-end is written in Java.  I've had my website up for a while now (http://kingdom.servegame.org), and the server side is written in Java, the front-end is done with html, and there is a mobile version of the site. Similar to isotropic it is just running on a computer at my house. However I've noticed that isotropic is much more responsive, and can handle a lot more users than my website, so hopefully the people at funsockets have done a better job at developing a solution that can scale.  Anyway just thought people might be interested since the official version will probably be using similar technologies.

This is pretty cool. Just a heads-up: there's a bug in the rules for Throne Rooms staying out with duration cards. If I play Throne Room on a Throne Room, then that Throne Room on two Wharves, then only the second Throne Room should stay out.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #176 on: May 10, 2012, 07:55:43 pm »
0

So I was looking on the funsockets website at the Careers section and noticed an entry for a Java developer, so I'm guessing the back-end is written in Java.  I've had my website up for a while now (http://kingdom.servegame.org), and the server side is written in Java, the front-end is done with html, and there is a mobile version of the site. Similar to isotropic it is just running on a computer at my house. However I've noticed that isotropic is much more responsive, and can handle a lot more users than my website, so hopefully the people at funsockets have done a better job at developing a solution that can scale.  Anyway just thought people might be interested since the official version will probably be using similar technologies.

This is pretty cool. Just a heads-up: there's a bug in the rules for Throne Rooms staying out with duration cards. If I play Throne Room on a Throne Room, then that Throne Room on two Wharves, then only the second Throne Room should stay out.
Feature.  Supposed to work like that.  It should happen on Iso too.  I think i might have misread this the first time.  Do both actually stay out in kingdom? then that is a bug.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 07:58:24 pm by Axxle »
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blueblimp

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #177 on: May 10, 2012, 08:34:14 pm »
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So I was looking on the funsockets website at the Careers section and noticed an entry for a Java developer, so I'm guessing the back-end is written in Java.  I've had my website up for a while now (http://kingdom.servegame.org), and the server side is written in Java, the front-end is done with html, and there is a mobile version of the site. Similar to isotropic it is just running on a computer at my house. However I've noticed that isotropic is much more responsive, and can handle a lot more users than my website, so hopefully the people at funsockets have done a better job at developing a solution that can scale.  Anyway just thought people might be interested since the official version will probably be using similar technologies.

This is pretty cool. Just a heads-up: there's a bug in the rules for Throne Rooms staying out with duration cards. If I play Throne Room on a Throne Room, then that Throne Room on two Wharves, then only the second Throne Room should stay out.
Feature.  Supposed to work like that.  It should happen on Iso too.  I think i might have misread this the first time.  Do both actually stay out in kingdom? then that is a bug.

I'm actually not sure exactly what it does. If I play TR-TR-Wharf-Wharf, the Duration area shows two Throne Rooms and two Wharves, but I don't know if that means both Throne Rooms are out, or what.
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kirkbauer

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #178 on: May 11, 2012, 09:18:14 am »
+1

The isotropic backend is written in Python. Python (though I love it very much) is about as slow as it gets. Attribute isotropic's scalability to implementer skill and not choice of programming language. :)

I admit that I have not used Python, however I have extensive experience with Perl (a similar interpreted language) and I can say that (surprisingly) it outperforms Java.  I say surprisingly because Java is compiled into psedo-machine language which should theoretically be faster to execute than a purely interpreted language.  I am not surprised that Python is more responsive than Java.

I think Isotropic is fast for a number of reasons:
1) Server is running Linux and not Windows
2) Web server is Apache and not bloated IIS or some big Java servlet engine
3) Python implementation is well-done
4) Interface (including Javascript) is simple and not bloated
5) Chrome makes it especially fast

I suspect that the commercial app will not be as efficient, however it may be possible for them to throw money at the problem to increase performance (more hardware, etc).
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #179 on: May 11, 2012, 10:19:54 am »
+2

I love Python.  I dislike Java (I think Java the language is okay, but Java the AbstractProxyFactoryFactoryManager community is horrible).

If a problem is computationally intensive, well written Python code is going to be a lot slower than well written Java.
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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #180 on: May 11, 2012, 10:41:13 am »
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I love Python.  I dislike Java (I think Java the language is okay, but Java the AbstractProxyFactoryFactoryManager community is horrible).

If a problem is computationally intensive, well written Python code is going to be a lot slower than well written Java.

But properly written python or java code for computationally intensive problems will likely be using bindings to the same external libraries written in C or fortran.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #181 on: May 11, 2012, 02:19:34 pm »
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I love Python.  I dislike Java (I think Java the language is okay, but Java the AbstractProxyFactoryFactoryManager community is horrible).

If a problem is computationally intensive, well written Python code is going to be a lot slower than well written Java.

But properly written python or java code for computationally intensive problems will likely be using bindings to the same external libraries written in C or fortran.

Maybe for numerical code, but there are plenty of discrete algorithms I'd prefer to roll by hand. To be fair, I'd usually just write these in C++, but performance in Java should also be acceptable.
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Davio

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2012, 02:53:13 pm »
+2

I hate Java, but I love C#.

Which is like saying: I hate rain, but I love snow, which is true as well. :)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2012, 03:31:51 pm »
+1

I hate Java, but I love C#.

Which is like saying: I hate rain, but I love snow, which is true as well. :)

I was about to ask if there were any other .Net guys around here! :) C# FTW! Though my preference is for Objective-C.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #184 on: May 11, 2012, 03:48:13 pm »
+2

I think Isotropic is fast for a number of reasons:
Honestly that sounds like a bunch of BS.  I would guess that it's fast because it has a well designed client-server interaction.  I would really be surprised if Windows vs. Linux on the server made any difference at all.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #185 on: May 11, 2012, 04:12:54 pm »
+1

I was about to ask if there were any other .Net guys around here! :) C# FTW! Though my preference is for Objective-C.

I think loving both Objective-C and C# makes you a special snowflake. I love to develop in C# and it hurts so bad when I have to go do Objective-C. (I develop primary on C# but we port to iOS and that means occasional ObjectiveC)
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #186 on: May 11, 2012, 04:26:14 pm »
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I was about to ask if there were any other .Net guys around here! :) C# FTW! Though my preference is for Objective-C.

I think loving both Objective-C and C# makes you a special snowflake. I love to develop in C# and it hurts so bad when I have to go do Objective-C. (I develop primary on C# but we port to iOS and that means occasional ObjectiveC)

I was a .Net developer for 4 years when suddenly my company wanted me to learn iOS. It took a while to get used to, but now I prefer it; I just find it more fun. Most of my current work is still .Net though.
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