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Author Topic: Where's the official app?  (Read 65109 times)

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Kirian

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #125 on: May 07, 2012, 06:40:26 pm »
0

and some even take the form "the non-iOS market is tiny and should just be ignored".

That's my biggest problem with that thread, yes.
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Papa Luigi

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #126 on: May 07, 2012, 06:48:22 pm »
+2

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

I know a lot of people who use and like their Apple products.  In most cases, they don't believe iOS is the be-all and end-all of computing.  Some people do, though, and I have a problem with those people.

*I do think, and I think a lot of people agree, that iThings are overpriced for what you get.  I don't need to justify not purchasing an iPhone except by saying "I paid a fifth what you did for my phone."

I don't really understand your argument. People are just concerned that a web app won't run as smoothly as a native app, and that concern is justified. I'm not an iPhone or iPad owner (all my gadgets are Android), but I can understand why they would want a native app instead. Smartphone and tablet owners know that native apps almost always work better with less lag and interface weirdness.

Look, I do not really like fanboys for any platform either, but I don't see how wanting a better experience makes them fanboys. I'm not sure you actually understand why they are making the arguments they're making.

*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets. Obviously a basic feature phone will cost way less than any smartphone. For the sake of this thread I'm just going to leave it at that*

I don't have any problem with that...but a number of the complaints seem to be of the form "why aren't they releasing for iOS exclusively/first?" and some even take the form "the non-iOS market is tiny and should just be ignored". 

I've got no problem with people who run iOS devices, I just don't want Apple's walled garden to drive the development process for the Dominion app.
I'm not seeing that being said or implied in the BGG threads that were linked earlier. They just would like to see a native app, not one person said that they think they ought to develop for iOS exclusively or give them preference in terms of release date and so on.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #127 on: May 07, 2012, 06:56:57 pm »
0

Anti-apple fanbois ae just as bad as apple fanbois these days.

Arguing about whether it would be better on one platform or multi- platform seems to be a bit of a moot point really. The decision would have been made months ago and its hardly likely to change now is it.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #128 on: May 07, 2012, 07:17:56 pm »
+1

*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets. Obviously a basic feature phone will cost way less than any smartphone. For the sake of this thread I'm just going to leave it at that*

My Android phone cost half as much as the same memory iPhone.  I'll admit I know little about the tablet market, as I have exactly zero interest in owning one.

I don't have any problem with that...but a number of the complaints seem to be of the form "why aren't they releasing for iOS exclusively/first?" and some even take the form "the non-iOS market is tiny and should just be ignored". 

I've got no problem with people who run iOS devices, I just don't want Apple's walled garden to drive the development process for the Dominion app.
I'm not seeing that being said or implied in the BGG threads that were linked earlier. They just would like to see a native app, not one person said that they think they ought to develop for iOS exclusively or give them preference in terms of release date and so on.

"The other big factor is simply business. By integrating with the iOS ecosphere, a game company will be able to hit the maximum amount of eyeballs and revenue from iOS users that can possibly be achieved. They'll be integrated in iOS top 10 lists, genius suggestions, featured picks, user reviews, etc. They'll also get all of the free marketing benefits of iOS bloggers and review sites. The same for an Android equivalent in the Android app store(s) and ecosphere. HTML5 however, means largest audience, smallest visibility."

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/9113495#9113495

Anti-apple fanbois ae just as bad as apple fanbois these days.

I was unclear.  I'm not an (anti-Apple) fanboy.  I am anti-(Apple fanboy).  Associative property alas only works in math; my apologies.  I couldn't care less what people use so long as they're not pushing it as the best option based just on the brand.
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O

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #129 on: May 07, 2012, 09:35:40 pm »
0

I'm fine with Apple... Phones, Tablets, and Ipods. Please stay the hell away from my computer.  ;D

That being said, it is a bit unrealistic to complain about not having a native iOS app. I don't believe Apple is even a majority anymore in the market (Tablet + Phone), but even if they aren't it's no longer the 90%. Those people are choosing to buy barely-compatible products, they know the risks...

Quote
*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets. Obviously a basic feature phone will cost way less than any smartphone. For the sake of this thread I'm just going to leave it at that*

What's a Kindle Fire?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2012, 02:25:03 am »
+1

*as for the iThings comment, iPhones cost the same as Android smartphones and iPads cost the same as 10" Android tablets.

I'm not sure this is true everywhere.  I know that when I was looking last year, it cost around 5 more per month for an iPhone than the same contract on a Samsung Galaxy S2 (probably the leading Android phone at the time). 

The reason I made my comment about iPhone owners justifying their decision is not a knock on Apple products (I own a couple and am happy with them on the whole) but more a comment about the kind of people (of which I know a few), who tend to buy the latest product just because it's Apple and then try to rationalise later what they actually plan to use it for or why it is better for them than the equivelant non-Apple product.  These kind of people are delighted when something cool is released exclusively on Apple iOS as it acts like a pack of Alkaseltzer on the acid of cognitive dissonance.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 02:30:19 am by Piemaster »
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #131 on: May 08, 2012, 11:01:30 am »
+1

I am deeply sorry for anyone who had to read that BGG thread because f.ds was down yesterday.

I am an anti-(Apple fanboy), but I get the desire to appeal to iOS first.  App developers hate developing for Android.   But those apps that have cross-platform play do very well (think WWF).  In other words, Android+iOS > iOS > Android, so HTML5 > native iOS
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #132 on: May 08, 2012, 02:59:23 pm »
0

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

+1 for a totally straight-faced use of the word 'hipsterism'.  ... my sides!  ;D ;D ;D
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chwhite

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #133 on: May 08, 2012, 03:13:53 pm »
+1

There is nothing more hipster than complaining about hipsters.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #134 on: May 08, 2012, 03:21:20 pm »
+3

There is nothing more hipster than complaining about hipsters.

That's so mainstream now.  I was complaining about hipsters before it was cool.
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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #135 on: May 08, 2012, 03:23:51 pm »
0

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

I know a lot of people who use and like their Apple products.  In most cases, they don't believe iOS is the be-all and end-all of computing.  Some people do, though, and I have a problem with those people.

*I do think, and I think a lot of people agree, that iThings are overpriced for what you get.  I don't need to justify not purchasing an iPhone except by saying "I paid a fifth what you did for my phone."

Care to give an explanation of the popularity of the app "Dominion by Donald X. Vaccarino", despite the fact that isotropic has multiplayer, all the cards and was available years earlier?
Bonus points if you can avoid mentioning the interface issues isotropic experiences AS A NON-NATIVE APP.
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greatexpectations

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #136 on: May 08, 2012, 04:15:44 pm »
0

Care to give an explanation of the popularity of the app "Dominion by Donald X. Vaccarino", despite the fact that isotropic has multiplayer, all the cards and was available years earlier?
Bonus points if you can avoid mentioning the interface issues isotropic experiences AS A NON-NATIVE APP.

i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have ever heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.

and isotropic wasn't originally developed with multiple platforms in mind. i'm pretty sure dougz has stated that he developed for use with chrome in mind. the official app on the other hand, was explicitly stated to be able to work on multiple platforms. i can only recall two issues (lobby and rearranging card order) that are problems on iOS. for something that is a couple of years old, non-commercial, and not actively targeting multiple platforms...that seems fine to me.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:44:40 pm by greatexpectations »
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #137 on: May 08, 2012, 04:18:40 pm »
0

This is why I don't understand the anti-Apple trolls. iOS devices are actually pretty good.

I'm not anti-Apple*, I'm anti-Apple-fanboy.  The people in that thread who are whining that they won't have their native app because it doesn't integrate with the app store, or doesn't take full advantage of iPad graphics, it's not free-range... total baloney.  Serious hipsterism.

I know a lot of people who use and like their Apple products.  In most cases, they don't believe iOS is the be-all and end-all of computing.  Some people do, though, and I have a problem with those people.

*I do think, and I think a lot of people agree, that iThings are overpriced for what you get.  I don't need to justify not purchasing an iPhone except by saying "I paid a fifth what you did for my phone."

Care to give an explanation of the popularity of the app "Dominion by Donald X. Vaccarino", despite the fact that isotropic has multiplayer, all the cards and was available years earlier?
Bonus points if you can avoid mentioning the interface issues isotropic experiences AS A NON-NATIVE APP.

There's a huge difference between running isotropic on iOS and running an iOS-optimized web app on iOS. Off the top of my head:
  • Isotropic doesn't size itself to fit the screen. An iOS-optimized web app would obviously do this.
  • Isotropic responds slowly to taps because it listens for click events. An iOS-optimized web app would listen for touch events, so it would respond instantly.
  • Isotropic can't be played offline. Web apps can be implemented to be usable offline (by caching).
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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #138 on: May 08, 2012, 04:31:22 pm »
0


i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have never heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.


Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 04:39:59 pm by barsooma »
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greatexpectations

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #139 on: May 08, 2012, 04:54:25 pm »
0

Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.

i don't have an iPhone or iPad, so my only knowledge of it would be mentions on here or on BGG.  and i would likely confuse it with one of the other apps or ways to play dominion online or via app. i didn't know what it was, and you were the one who described it as 'popular', so the burden is on you to defend that statement.

i just looked up the app, and judging from the screenshots and commentary it only seems to use base set and has problems with multiplayer.  some might prefer that to isotropic, but it is still comparing apples to oranges.

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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2012, 05:00:17 pm »
0

Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.

i don't have an iPhone or iPad, so my only knowledge of it would be mentions on here or on BGG.  and i would likely confuse it with one of the other apps or ways to play dominion online or via app. i didn't know what it was, and you were the one who described it as 'popular', so the burden is on you to defend that statement.

i just looked up the app, and judging from the screenshots and commentary it only seems to use base set and has problems with multiplayer.  some might prefer that to isotropic, but it is still comparing apples to oranges.

Ok, so you are unfamiliar with the relevant discussions. How about you stop replying to a comment that was directed to someone else entirely?
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2012, 05:05:37 pm »
0


i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have never heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.


Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern. If you were following these discussions here or on BGG you would know about it.
But the app is rated 4.5 stars on the App Store, and has 2652 ratings (compare to 2353 for Ticket to Ride official app, or 1517 for Puerto Rico HD).

EDIT: my mistake, according to the publisher
"58724 games completed since public release on Jan 21 2012."

I'm not saying the app is comparably popular to isotropic, just that there are plenty of people who vocally prefer it, even though (to me at least) it is objectively inferior.

Good for them? At the end of the day you are comparing an app made for a device against a program NEVER designed to be played on it.

And even with that TERRIBLE comparison, Iso works pretty damn well, even though it's not perfect. However, the comparison that matters is how an app made for a device works compared to a program designed to be played on it. Given how few flaws iso already has, and how old it is, my GENERAL thought is that these people who believe the world revolves around them need to get their panties out of a knot.

The time and effort is being put in to make this a program that WORKS FOR EVERYONE. There is already a sound base to start from (if they choose) in iso.

And FWIW, I use an Android phone, iPad, and PC running Mozilla. Androminion is well done. Dominion on the iPad is less well done (imho), but I appreciate the effort (even if the artwork is used against the wishes of Donald and RGG), and far ahead of both is Isotropic.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2012, 05:10:25 pm »
0

The main reason I have so many games made on the iphone app is simply because it plays offline (albeit a terrible AI half the time) and it passes the time on the train.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2012, 05:11:17 pm »
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Good for them? At the end of the day you are comparing an app made for a device against a program NEVER designed to be played on it.

And even with that TERRIBLE comparison, Iso works pretty damn well, even though it's not perfect. However, the comparison that matters is how an app made for a device works compared to a program designed to be played on it. Given how few flaws iso already has, and how old it is, my GENERAL thought is that these people who believe the world revolves around them need to get their panties out of a knot.

The time and effort is being put in to make this a program that WORKS FOR EVERYONE. There is already a sound base to start from (if they choose) in iso.

And FWIW, I use an Android phone, iPad, and PC running Mozilla. Androminion is well done. Dominion on the iPad is less well done (imho), but I appreciate the effort (even if the artwork is used against the wishes of Donald and RGG), and far ahead of both is Isotropic.

You people really have no reading comprehension, do you?
Obviously isotropic is better than this app, that's half my point.
But even so, many people vocally prefer it to isotropic, which means that there is another factor in play here.
Some possibilities:
   "look and feel" of a native app
   exposure on the iOS App Store
   offline play

These are things which are worth consideration, and telling people to "get their panties out of a knot" is rude and unhelpful.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:14:21 pm by barsooma »
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2012, 05:17:41 pm »
0

The main reason I have so many games made on the iphone app is simply because it plays offline (albeit a terrible AI half the time) and it passes the time on the train.

That's the only reason I have 2,000+ games on Androminion. Iso just doesn't work well on Android. That and places where there is a lack of connection. I often use it to fine tune solo challenge solutions, even though it requires a bot. If I remove attacks or play against the BM bot...

Still, once I have a program that WILL work on my phone, it won't see much more use.
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TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2012, 05:24:45 pm »
0

   "look and feel" of a native app
   exposure on the iOS App Store
   offline play

All three of these can be achieved with a web app that is designed specifically for iOS, except for a bit of loss on look and feel, but in a game you don't want the default platform widgets anyway. It can be put in the app store via a shell app. And offline play is possible by caching.

To be fair, here's an argument against using a web interface. Some of the points don't apply to a game like Dominion, but some do.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2012, 08:20:57 pm »
+1


i really don't care about this discussion either way, but these arguments seem a little weak.  i don't think i have never heard of that app, so you should have provided some metric (number of users, games played per day) that indicates that it actually is popular, especially in comparison to isotropic.  isotropic is pulling 20k or so games a day, it would have to be a pretty popular app to even be in that same discussion.


Those kinds of information aren't publicly available, and educating you is not my concern.
Great! Why are you posting here again?

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #147 on: May 08, 2012, 08:38:54 pm »
+1

I think the big problem here is that the different groups of people are arguing different things. Some people (not many) are basically arguing 'I hate apple'. Some people are arguing 'I don't care about this.' Some people are arguing 'I hate people who are crazy gaga over apple. But most of the people fall into one of these camps:
1. "I want it to be an iOS version, that's native to iOS. If there are other platforms, that's ok too, but I want an app that's native to iOS, because that will definitely work best on my iOS device. Anything else will give me worse performance."
2. "I don't really care about your iOS stuff. I don't have an iOS device, and I want to be able to use the product. having more people be able to use the thing is more important than optimizing the little tiny niceties in ONE VERSION that only a fraction, even if it's a substantial one, of the people will use."

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The thing is, I don't think anybody's arguing that it won't work better on iOS devices if there's an app native to that environment. Like, obviously it will (I guess there'd be some ways that it might work equally well, but... eh, it's going to work at least as well, almost certainly better, in a system it's natively designed for). But that's not really the point is. The point is "Ok... so what?" Because, they're not out to make the best rootin' tootin' iOS dominion app they can. They're out to make a way for people to play dominion on-line. There are other people besides you who also want to play this game. They're catering not only to your market, but to that larger market. If they develop an iOS app, then you get your program to work a bit better, have a few nicer features maybe. People without iOS products, though, would get MUCH WORSE quality - they wouldn't get to use the product at all. So, this is going to sound a little blunt, but this whole outrage (I should point out here that I think it's actually quite few of the people who are outraged - many more fall in the ambivalent camp) is a bit childish. Yeah, you've got a rich and powerful daddy. That doesn't mean you get to have all the nicest little toys in the kingdom and exactly everything you want; you'll get stuff, but there are other kids want toys, too. It's like, the product that everyone else is getting isn't nice enough for you, and you somehow feel entitled (using this word, once again, to refer to the outraged people; if you're outraged, you have a reason, and it belies a sense of entitlement; most people, I think don't feel entitled, though they may quite reasonably WANT something nicer for themselves, without particularly feeling they have sufficient reason to EXPECT it) to something nicer, but for no reason. Seriously, this is my question to these people: Why? Why should you get something nicer?

barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2012, 08:42:39 pm »
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blah blah blah

TL;DR:
WanderingWinder feels ENTITLED to an app for his non-iOS device, even though Apple completely dominates the market of for-pay apps, and any company with the slightest sense of market realities will cater to them.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #149 on: May 08, 2012, 09:08:09 pm »
0

blah blah blah

TL;DR:
WanderingWinder feels ENTITLED to an app for his non-iOS device, even though Apple completely dominates the market of for-pay apps, and any company with the slightest sense of market realities will cater to them.
Actually, I don't. I don't feel entitled to being able to play dominion online at all. I don't feel entitled to having the internet, air conditioning, heating... I think about what it was like 300 years ago and... well, I think most people should have it better now, but really with all the disease and poverty and starvation in the world, I'm not going to get really upset over something like this either way. The people I describe as feeling entitled above are those who are outraged. I'm not outraged here - I think people are being a bit childish, but you know, people do that all the time. And it's not really hurting all that much. Just a bit annoying.

If you would have read it, you would see that I'm not actually arguing FOR something there, just AGAINST the 'we get everything the way we want it' deal. You're quite wrong with that apple "dominates" the market of for-pay apps - they may have the largest chunk of the market, by a pretty big margin, but they don't 'dominate' it. The anti-trust people would be all over them if they actually did... However, that's largely a matter of semantics, and pretty irrelevant anyway.
While you're busy insulting the companies actually making this product, you're missing the point. I actually had it above, too, but it got buried in a wall of text, so:

It's not about making an app. It's about making a product.

So, a large part of their business is to make it available just online to people with PCs. Oh look, there are lots more people with PCs than with iPhones. Funny. Actually that's not even relevant either. The relevant thing is the demographics of who is likely to buy this thing at what prices if it's made in the various different ways, run that counter to the amount of resources that you'd need to put into making it in each of the different ways, and add in the good-will or bad-will of making it one way as opposed to another.
You know what, I don't really have much idea what these numbers work out to be. My gut would tell me it's going to be much better for them to make something people can play from browsers, because you get the same basic functionality all over the place, and people who go on browsers is a much much bigger market than people who go on iOS devices, and I tend to doubt that the added functionality will really turn that many people off from buying the thing, and I REALLY doubt that very many people AT ALL would pay more for it. Ideally, you'd have lots of different interfacing things for the different native environments, of course. But I doubt that that would make a whole lot of sense, because again, I don't see the added benefits of making the specific different versions being enough to justify writing so many different programs. Now, maybe it's not that hard to do, and certainly making it for 5 platforms say, should be much less work than 5 times making it for one, but I don't see much added benefit at all. But like I say, I don't know. I expect you don't really know either, though I could be wrong? Have you done a lot of marketing research with board game markets? If so, could you elucidate me? Thanks. If not, I'm going to put a little more faith in what they think is best for their companies over what you think is best for their companies. Simply because they are their companies, not yours, and you've produced, oh, zero data.
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