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Author Topic: Where's the official app?  (Read 68317 times)

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O

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2012, 11:34:56 pm »
0

"goodness of their hearts" wa reference to the recent complaining about Iso and DougZ.

Take a minute to review your post. Where did it make any reference to Iso and DougZ? You brought up exactly 2 entities - RGG and Donald X. - in the paragraph preceding the quoted statement; how was I supposed to infer that this was a reference to Iso and DougZ?

I think we've established a clear difference in a certain other thread between being critical and being malicious. The only thing preventing people from presenting their honest opinions is the censure that they receive for being ostensibly untactful. But seriously - something's quite not right here regarding the release of the official app, and it should be known, preferably in a nice, civilized manner.

Sorry, the post was in response to  baroosma, who it seems ha taken up the mantle of complaining about everything he can think of. There was no direct reference in my post to the previous thread, although the point is still relevant. I don't, at glance, take you to feel this way about all the same issues baroosma does.

However, to your point about making a profit: I agree. I said there is a time and place. Complain about the card game itself if you like. It's a released product that you've paid for. Complain about the app after you have it - I take no issue. But unless you have, and have paid for it already? They owe you nothing.

That's usually a pretty terrible business model to take: screw our potential customers, they haven't even paid us yet!!

Not that RGG or Donald has done this.
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tlloyd

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2012, 11:36:11 pm »
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Donald I have no problem with the obvious frustration in your response, and I agree that people should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled. However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when. That goes for the new basic cards "expansion" as well. If you have no update for us, then (most of us) will just keep on patiently waiting.
Wow, I didn't actually read him as being frustrated there, and uh, that's not really his place. I mean, if there were some design-related issue, then yeah, I'd be going for him telling us about it. Or maybe if there were a rules issue, since he's basically the de facto rules judge for the game, then I'd be ok with asking him for something like this here (actually, even then, you hurry a decision -> you get a bad decision).
I mean, his alternative is to not talk to us at all. Which might indeed be a better use of his time. But I, for one, would not like this change.

I may have misread his intent, but you have certainly misread mine. I didn't say "tell us everything you know! screw the game developers!" I said give us an update if you can; otherwise we'll just have to wait. Clearly I'm not hoping that he'll stop talking to us.
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Galzria

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2012, 11:46:54 pm »
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O, I fully agree that information of ANY kind has been, well, lacking. And I don't disagree that it's a pretty bad business model. And heck, if they ASKED my opinion, I'd let them know.

But they haven't, and it isn't my place to complain about it. I'm just happy that it IS coming, and happy trusting that extended wait time means a better product. If that trust is misplaced? I'll be first in line to let them hear it. But until then, demanding more, our complaining about things 100% out of our control (as SOME have done, or continue to do) is silly.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2012, 11:52:06 pm »
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Donald I have no problem with the obvious frustration in your response, and I agree that people should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled. However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when. That goes for the new basic cards "expansion" as well. If you have no update for us, then (most of us) will just keep on patiently waiting.
Wow, I didn't actually read him as being frustrated there, and uh, that's not really his place. I mean, if there were some design-related issue, then yeah, I'd be going for him telling us about it. Or maybe if there were a rules issue, since he's basically the de facto rules judge for the game, then I'd be ok with asking him for something like this here (actually, even then, you hurry a decision -> you get a bad decision).
I mean, his alternative is to not talk to us at all. Which might indeed be a better use of his time. But I, for one, would not like this change.

I may have misread his intent, but you have certainly misread mine. I didn't say "tell us everything you know! screw the game developers!" I said give us an update if you can; otherwise we'll just have to wait. Clearly I'm not hoping that he'll stop talking to us.
You're misreading mine? I'm not saying you're saying 'tell us everything you know!' I'm saying you're asking him to tell us something. Which he has no reason or right to tell us. Which I support by your claim "However, I think a better use of your time would be to actually tell us something - anything - about what we can expect and when." So, uh, if you can explain how that's not what I'm saying... more power to you? Not that I think this is terribly important.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2012, 11:52:58 pm »
+2

image

If no one complained about things, then there wouldn't be an incentive to do things well, would there?
We would, in fact, continue to have many incentives.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2012, 11:56:38 pm »
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O, I fully agree that information of ANY kind has been, well, lacking. And I don't disagree that it's a pretty bad business model. And heck, if they ASKED my opinion, I'd let them know.

But they haven't, and it isn't my place to complain about it. I'm just happy that it IS coming, and happy trusting that extended wait time means a better product. If that trust is misplaced? I'll be first in line to let them hear it. But until then, demanding more, our complaining about things 100% out of our control (as SOME have done, or continue to do) is silly.

Hmm, sounds like you're saying that they deserve our trust and patience... perhaps they are even ENTITLED to it?
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2012, 11:57:31 pm »
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should quit complaining and quit feeling entitled.
Goddammit I really wish people would stop using this phrase. It really makes me feel entitled to shove a boot up their ass.
You know, I could say the same thing about this post. Except that I don't, as a rule, use such language, or actually physically want to cause harm to someone I'm upset with.
I really wish certain people would stop actually feeling entitled. I wish people would stop being absolute jerks. I wish people would stop being offensive. Man, these wishes look really effective...

dondon151

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2012, 12:03:57 am »
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We would, in fact, continue to have many incentives.

Prove it. How would you know how to do better if no one told you what you were doing wrong?
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Papa Luigi

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2012, 12:09:21 am »
+2

I'm not a programmer but I can say that in all my years of following various software releases, mostly games, I have never gotten the impression that you can simply "code faster," nor do I think I have ever seen a situation in which a game being released sooner was a good thing.

Sometimes you have big publishers enforcing release dates with an iron fist - see EA and Activision. The end product usually ends up being subpar because they must release an unfinished, unpolished product, and then patch any problems after the fact (and after people have already bought the game). Of course they're not always so nice as to actually fix those problems, and if you ask some people, you're "entitled" for asking for fixes.

Other times you have the smaller, quality-focused developers who are more concerned with making sure their product is excellent upon release. Maybe they want things to be too perfect. But the schedules tend to slip. Sometimes they slip A LOT. In many cases, the end result is worth the wait.

Also remember that the people here are on the bleeding edge of the Dominion world. We get to try out new cards before they're even released for sale. We get to play with ALL the promo cards that many people don't even know exist. We get to have conversations with the game's creator! So while we've known about the official app for months, most casual Dominion players may not know of it yet. A lot of them probably haven't even heard of Isotropic; I know I didn't until maybe a month or two ago. Essentially, to us, the official app has been stuck in development for a long time. But to a lot of more casual fans of the game, they may not know it exists until it's released.

At any rate, I'm looking forward to it, but I'm certainly not hoping they rush it. I want the official app to play every bit as well as Isotropic. I wouldn't mind having a slick, pretty interface that maybe works better on tablets or phones, but the real important thing is making sure the game plays exactly as it does in real life, and that's where Isotropic has done so well.

Long story short, there's no real sense in asking about it because software development is way, way over most of our heads and there's already a perfectly good online implementation available that you can use whenever you like.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2012, 12:10:22 am »
+1

   OH LOOK
      ಠ_ಠ
   It's THIS
thread again.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2012, 12:11:52 am »
0

   OH LOOK
      ಠ_ಠ
   It's THIS
thread again.



I will never not love that gif.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2012, 12:16:44 am »
0

We would, in fact, continue to have many incentives.

Prove it. How would you know how to do better if no one told you what you were doing wrong?
A few things. First, it's very very sad to me if your only incentives come from other people complaining at you. You didn't say 'we wouldn't know what we needed to improve upon' or 'we wouldn't know how to do things better', either of which isn't necessarily true, but both of which are much more defensible than your claim that 'If no one complained about things, then there wouldn't be an incentive to do things well'.
Second, proving this is laughably easy. I eat meals every day because I want to, not because other people complain. I try to learn how to make the weird dishes I like better than I can now, so that I will more enjoy them. Also so that other people will enjoy them if I make them for them, even though I haven't yet and certainly haven't heard complaints. Just the vast majority of what I do, I do because I think it's the right thing to do, it's what I want to do, because I think it's what I should do, not because other people are nagging me, but because I have a largely internal, also shaped through study of various things, sense of what is good. And I like to increase the good in the world for its own sake, not just because people nag me.
Thirdly, even if you can't prove something, that doesn't mean it's not true.

2+2=4. Prove it.
a&&!a = false. (i.e. nothing can be both true and false at the same time). Prove it.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2012, 01:38:29 am »
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As a video game developer myself, believe me, once the developers of the official app set any kind of date they'll tell us.  They want to make money on this as much as we want a quality product.  We have too much of an already established fanbase to slight us with a shoddy product.
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dondon151

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2012, 02:58:28 am »
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First, it's very very sad to me if your only incentives come from other people complaining at you.

This is an oversimplification of my statement. Clearly, if one makes a product for consumption by other consumers, then the only incentive to improve that product (or really, do anything better) is consumer feedback.

You didn't say 'we wouldn't know what we needed to improve upon' or 'we wouldn't know how to do things better', either of which isn't necessarily true,

Isn't that the end goal of a complaint - to tell the provider what to make better and how it should be done?

Second, proving this is laughably easy. I eat meals every day because I want to, not because other people complain.

Your attempt at a proof by contradiction falls outside of the context of this argument, but I'll entertain you anyway: you eat meals every day because your brain perceives a lack of glucose in your blood and/or glycogen in your liver, not because you "want" to. Physiologically, your body is complaining to you. You wouldn't know if you were hungry otherwise!

I try to learn how to make the weird dishes I like better than I can now, so that I will more enjoy them. Also so that other people will enjoy them if I make them for them, even though I haven't yet and certainly haven't heard complaints.

Suppose that you had a peculiar taste that no one else seems to appreciate. What do you do?
Suppose that Iso had an odd quirk (like the Quarry-GM quirk) that DougZ doesn't mind because he knows his creation in and out, but the users are mildly annoyed. What should DougZ do?

Just the vast majority of what I do, I do because I think it's the right thing to do, it's what I want to do, because I think it's what I should do, not because other people are nagging me, but because I have a largely internal, also shaped through study of various things, sense of what is good. And I like to increase the good in the world for its own sake, not just because people nag me.

I spy 2 distinctly contradictory statements coming from you:
1. Consumers should not complain about the quality of a free product
2. Producers should be concerned about the quality of a free product

Now, I totally agree with point 2 from a moral standpoint, but the fact is that the producer has nothing to gain by improving his product, which leads to the case for point 1 (because it's selfish to demand things for free). So if you posit point 1... then aren't you admitting a positive correlation between consumer-driven incentive and the producer's benefit? And if you posit point 1, then you admit that the producer does not have a self-driven incentive except for a foggy sense of moral obligation?

2+2=4. Prove it.

http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html

a&&!a = false. (i.e. nothing can be both true and false at the same time). Prove it.

Well, this one I can't do.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 03:06:32 am by dondon151 »
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toaster

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2012, 03:41:23 am »
+2

By far the biggest concern to me is that most developers are ever-anxious to get information out about their products...designer interviews, developer blogs, screenshots, play demos, that sort of thing.  The reasoning is pretty simple:

1) They're proud of their work
2) The developers wants others to be excited about the product as they are

When a game developer is silent, that's very often a bad sign for a game...usually meaning that the project isn't going well and/or the timeline is slipping.  Quite often the reason a game developer doesn't share information about their game is that they don't have good news or a good product to report.

I really hope that the Dominion app is one of those rare exceptions, but I fear that it may not be...personally, I'm anxious to hear news of the game not so much because I really want advance details or an exact release date, but because the silence leads me to believe that things may not be going so well for the project.
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Davio

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2012, 04:12:50 am »
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It would surprise me if they are behind on schedule.

It's not like making an app is rocket science nowadays. And they have plenty of examples of interfaces they can copy, like the Thunderstone app or the Magic software. How difficult is it to implement the cards? Just ask DougZ for Iso's source code. :)
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2012, 05:11:29 am »
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Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2012, 07:16:11 am »
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I don't think the app will be difficult. Any AI will be difficult.
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2012, 08:45:54 am »
0

First, it's very very sad to me if your only incentives come from other people complaining at you.

This is an oversimplification of my statement.
Maybe so, but if it is, I don't see it, and I want you to explain your statement better. Which, I think you do right now?
Quote
Clearly, if one makes a product for consumption by other consumers, then the only incentive to improve that product (or really, do anything better) is consumer feedback.
No! First of all, this limits the case to products for consumers, which is way smaller than what you're saying in your first statement which has 'anyone does anything'. But fine, let's limit it. It's still not true. I generally don't do things at all because people have complained at me. I do things well because I want them to be quality. I like doing good things, and I like doing them well. Now, what constitutes doing them well is SOMETIMES shaped by what people are telling me they want. But more, it's about doing what's right/best. I think anyone who has worked with children understands the difference.
Quote
You didn't say 'we wouldn't know what we needed to improve upon' or 'we wouldn't know how to do things better', either of which isn't necessarily true,

Isn't that the end goal of a complaint - to tell the provider what to make better and how it should be done?
No. That's the end goal of constructive criticism. But even if you use the former to mean the latter... I mean, my point is not that 'complaints' don't help you figure out what to do, how to do it, etc. etc. My point is that it's by no means the ONLY way.
Quote

Second, proving this is laughably easy. I eat meals every day because I want to, not because other people complain.

Your attempt at a proof by contradiction falls outside of the context of this argument, but I'll entertain you anyway: you eat meals every day because your brain perceives a lack of glucose in your blood and/or glycogen in your liver, not because you "want" to. Physiologically, your body is complaining to you. You wouldn't know if you were hungry otherwise!
It doesn't fall outside the context of the argument. Why is that outside the context of the argument? Furthermore, no. I mean, this is a semantic/philosophical thing now, but a) I don't think that I am merely a function of my brain chemistry, and b) even if I were, that would then be what we call 'want'. And in fact, lots of people eat things when they aren't hungry. Look at all the obesity in America. Some of it's caused by medical conditions where people who are well nourished have hormonal problems that cause them to still 'feel hungry'. But the vast majority don't.

Quote
I try to learn how to make the weird dishes I like better than I can now, so that I will more enjoy them. Also so that other people will enjoy them if I make them for them, even though I haven't yet and certainly haven't heard complaints.

Suppose that you had a peculiar taste that no one else seems to appreciate. What do you do?
Suppose that Iso had an odd quirk (like the Quarry-GM quirk) that DougZ doesn't mind because he knows his creation in and out, but the users are mildly annoyed. What should DougZ do?
I in fact do have that kind of taste. What I do is not make that kind of food for other people, since I care about them. But I care about them; it's not about complaints. Because the only people I ever cook for love me too, and they generally wouldn't complain if I made them charcoal (okay, I mean, if I make charcoal often enough, they'll tell me, and they'll tell me their preferences, etc. etc. But not complain).
What dougZ SHOULD do is a much more interesting and important, but also much deeper and more complicated question. Because it's a question of ethics. Now I can evince an entire ethical system here, but... I'm just going to skip to the conclusion. He should do what's best for him, and what's best for the users. In this case, it's almost certainly what he has done, and hey, he seems like a pretty ethical guy, so that makes sense. However, this whole thing doesn't really seem to be getting anywhere to me? Like, your attempt at proof by example isn't more successful than any other proof by example try.
Quote
Just the vast majority of what I do, I do because I think it's the right thing to do, it's what I want to do, because I think it's what I should do, not because other people are nagging me, but because I have a largely internal, also shaped through study of various things, sense of what is good. And I like to increase the good in the world for its own sake, not just because people nag me.

I spy 2 distinctly contradictory statements coming from you:
1. Consumers should not complain about the quality of a free product
2. Producers should be concerned about the quality of a free product

Now, I totally agree with point 2 from a moral standpoint, but the fact is that the producer has nothing to gain by improving his product, which leads to the case for point 1 (because it's selfish to demand things for free). So if you posit point 1... then aren't you admitting a positive correlation between consumer-driven incentive and the producer's benefit? And if you posit point 1, then you admit that the producer does not have a self-driven incentive except for a foggy sense of moral obligation?
These things aren't contradictory at all! People shouldn't complain about free products, because man, well you shouldn't generally complain. And even more so about free products because they aren't invested or entitled to anything there, they haven't put anything in. This doesn't mean that the people who are making the things shouldn't want to make quality products. In fact this only follows if you accept your (once again, totally wrong) premise that the only reason to do something is to avoid complaints. But I want to make a product just to make a quality product. dougZ made isotropic... well, not out of complaints. I'm not sure why exactly, but probably because he figured people would enjoy it, or HE would enjoy it, or he just wanted the challenge. It's fun. And anything I do, I want to do it quality. I don't do things half-way just because I can get away with it.

Quote
2+2=4. Prove it.

http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html
That doesn't prove it at all.

Quote
a&&!a = false. (i.e. nothing can be both true and false at the same time). Prove it.

Well, this one I can't do.
No kidding.

Edit: cleaned up a /quote thing
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 08:48:41 am by WanderingWinder »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2012, 08:48:14 am »
0

Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
True, but let's not blame the programmers. Usually it's those sales guys who have no idea what the situations of programming are, because they don't know how to program, and they don't ask how long things will take, and still they are like 'yeah, we can do that in 2 weeks, no problem'. When it takes 2 months at least.
Not that I have any reason to think that happened here, really. Just seems to happen a lot.

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2012, 08:49:40 am »
+1

No official app yet?
Oh no, its the end of the world!
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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2012, 08:50:41 am »
0

because man, ....
Another phrase which is greatly overused around here and rubs me the wrong way.
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barsooma

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2012, 08:51:55 am »
0

Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
True, but let's not blame the programmers. Usually it's those sales guys who have no idea what the situations of programming are, because they don't know how to program, and they don't ask how long things will take, and still they are like 'yeah, we can do that in 2 weeks, no problem'. When it takes 2 months at least.
Not that I have any reason to think that happened here, really. Just seems to happen a lot.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2012, 09:04:06 am »
0

because man, ....
Another phrase which is greatly overused around here and rubs me the wrong way.
The 'man,' thing is just a phrase, and doesn't imply ANYTHING really, except maybe that the person reading it is a man? I apologize if any female readers are offended.
I do not apologize to aliens.

The reason it gets used so much, I think, is because Donald has used it in his posts a few times, and we like the way he thinks.

WanderingWinder

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Re: Where's the official app?
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2012, 09:05:19 am »
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Eh, so many software projects always end up behind schedule. That's normal, sadly.

I have no doubt that doing an app like this RIGHT is pretty difficult.
True, but let's not blame the programmers. Usually it's those sales guys who have no idea what the situations of programming are, because they don't know how to program, and they don't ask how long things will take, and still they are like 'yeah, we can do that in 2 weeks, no problem'. When it takes 2 months at least.
Not that I have any reason to think that happened here, really. Just seems to happen a lot.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that this situation is primarily the fault of sales/marketing guys falling down on the job.
That is specifically not what I'm saying. I don't know what the deal is here, because nobody's telling us anything.
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