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[faust]

But also,

Vote: gkrieg

Will you join me, iguana?

Do you scumread gkrieg?

Would you answer the question "why are you voting gkrieg" meaningfully if I asked it now? Do you think I would consider the answer meaningful?

Why are you voting gkrieg?

I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.

[MiX]

But also,

Vote: gkrieg

Will you join me, iguana?

Do you scumread gkrieg?

Would you answer the question "why are you voting gkrieg" meaningfully if I asked it now? Do you think I would consider the answer meaningful?

Why are you voting gkrieg?

I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.

Ok.

Vote: gkrieg

[Jimmmmm]

I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.

Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.

[jotheonah]

I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.

[jotheonah]

I'm kind of shocked that no one amongst all the veteran players voting gkrieg has brought this up yet.

This is why I was scumreading MiX and faust. As e points out, they are doing the vast majority of the posting and the laziest possible scumhunting. It feels like scum trying to lead town down a road to nowhere.

Now I know I said that I had a townread on faust but man I'm not sure now.

The case I was going to make was about MiX and faust playing a truly audacious scum game because their metas allow them to get away with it and they know it. I know that's a big swing, but tell me it doesn't pretty neatly explain the game so far!

[WestCoastDidds]

I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.

It’s not just the lurking… it’s that he’s outside of my town list. Now, I know my town list it too big, but if reduce my voting pool to those outside of it, it makes the choice easier.

So, since the tides are turning back to town!Joth, whose on the outs for you?

[jotheonah]

When I was re-reading conference call mafia I came upon this quote from myself:

I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.

I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.

I'm always hesitant to call out the leader-y scum thing because I myself never attempt it. But I can see faust and MiX deciding to. Reread the opening of the game and tell me their banter doesn't feel a little too neat and tidy to be organic?

[mathdude]

Vote: faust

When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.

Or gkrieg.

You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.

unvote

Following up on this post of mine finally.  Sorry about the delay.  (And yes, I'm at a computer and have a lot to reply to.  This will be a wall post!)

I had sort of ignored iguana D1, since I had only played 1 other game with him (Oz), and wanted to focus more on people I had played multiple games with, in order to get a little more info about how to read him.  I was scum-reading him off-and-on last game, and I think that's just that his playstyle will get read that way to me (the same way I will, by default, think MiX, faust, and a few others not in this game are just scummy by the way they post D1 of games).  Again, I'm becoming more aware of this bias, and trying to take it into account in learning how to read people.

Back on D1...

A few RVS votes/discussion early, then

I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.

I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.

Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.

I don't like the excuse for not wanting to vote MiX.  Then, I get that it's D1 and we don't know much, but "saltiness" doesn't seem like a good reason to jump on a vote.

This post:

For all the discussion of us not being RVS, the weekend start we've had feels very RVSy even for a normal game.

Mathdude's comments here

You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?

remind me a bit of when he OMGUSed me in the last game here.

It has that same attitude of scumreading someone for reading the game differently than you. He was town there, so for right now I'm reading it as Math is town again and would want to blend in more if he was scum.

Joth and Jimmm are my biggest unknowns this game.

I vaguely remember Jim as someone who played occasionally, didn't post much, but had a reputation for being good at finding the scums with short, decisive posts. I don't remember if I've ever read a scum Jim game though...

Joth I've seen as mod and I did some reading into his old games already, but I don't know his scum meta either.

@Joth, could you point me in the direction of a scum game you are proud of?

gets townpoints.  This is some of the most useful stuff I think he's posted, and it was very early D1.

Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?

Because you're questioning it. That puts the chance out there that the two of you are partners.

For me personally finding partner interactions is too hard without a single flip and it's a sort of folly to try. That sort of things lends itself to confirmation bias easily.

This looks like an easy way to avoid committing to doing much useful stuff D1 - something scum would want to do, as long as it looks like an exile will actually happen.

Now we get into some more of the good stuff!

Third vote is scum

Vote: math

I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.

Vote: Mathdude

Maybe it's a poor choice of words, but this case is definitely not "persuasive".  This is a good excuse to jump on a wagon (e provided a flimsy reason to vote me, why not jump on and see what happens?).  But it's not persuasive, by any means.  Scum!iguana makes it seem like there's more of a case on me than there really is.

yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.

Sure. So I will read Joth now.

Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum.

Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.

And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.

That's my general impression.
-snip-

The "Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum" is something I'll come back to later with iguana, and part of why I think he's scum.

Otherwise, in that post, he's all over the map, commenting about joth, but not really saying anything useful for us to use for or against in the future.

-snip-
(long post of his re-read on MiX)

In his re-read on MiX, he's almost fully focused on how MiX reads me, and switches his read on me, then ignores commenting on a read on me.  This fixation on how things relate to me is not fully founded at this point (I had not yet become a real viable wagon until almost the end of D1... even though I had a few votes on me earlier, there wasn't much to them).

Blah, I missed swowl.

I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."

So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.

I believe I replied to this thought back on D1, but this was late enough in the day, a policy exile for not showing up would probably have been worse than no-exile (unless of course Swowl ended up flipping scum).  We actually had relevant thoughts/reads from many people on a few different wagons, so switching to a lurker with almost no info on people's reads would be something scum would want.

-snip-
Long post about me
...

Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.

PPE Swowl's post

Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.

I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.

This was an OMGUS reply.  And hedging on "especially scummy if Jim is town" already sounds scummy, but adding "which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet" sounds more like "I know he's town, but I can't say that here".

He then digs down and repeats these thoughts in his next post, arguing for why he's tunneling so much on me, because it's almost all that e and gkrieg had done (in their few contributions to the game, even though there were no real reasons given)... and since he was reading them, and MiX, therefore of course it would all connect back to me.

Vote Count 1.II.5

EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3): jotheonah, mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust

Last thing I wanted to do is take a look at the current game state. With less than a day to deadline... Jim is the only one stubbornly not moving his vote to any kind of a wagon. Still, I don't like the look of the people voting Jim and do not want to vote there. I don't think I like voting MiX either given that the two votes on him are coming from people I don't really trust.

I could move to EFHW but I think I still want to see if anyone else is interested in Math.

That's a lot of people he doesn't like the look of and doesn't really trust.  It's one thing to not be townreading a lot of people D1.  But this looks like throwing shade on a lot of people, and seeing what will stick.


On to D2...

At the start, he is focused a lot on why people did or did not vote me.  This fixation actually makes sense here, since I was one of the potentially viable wagons EoD1.

Iguana, I understand you can't fathom having a townread on me, but others can.

It's not that no one could TR you but I do want to know where he's coming from on said town read

This quote and his previous post look like just trying to start something, where nothing needed to be started.  Scum trying to build up trouble start of D2 maybe?

Vote: faust

When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.

Or gkrieg.

These posts just came out of nowhere, in my opinion.  He had been so focused EoD1 with who was voting for whom, and not voting with people he thought was scummy.  He had been scum-reading me a fair amount now.  And I believe at this point, I was the only one voting faust, and he jumps on to maybe start a wagon.  This is inconsistent with his earlier play this game.

Vote: faust

When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.

Or gkrieg.

You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.

unvote

It doesn't have to be both! Trust me, I can be town and also be super detrimental. That is most likely the case here.

At any rate, I wasn't sheeping you, and actually I had no idea you were even voting faust.

I really honestly believe that you can't write a good case against faust. He has played in near every game I've played in since 2015, and I don't think I've ever been able to read him accurately. Mostly I find him to be towny even when he is scum. Last game I trusted that read and lost.

This game, I am not feeling the case against Jim at all. EFHW seemed scummy at first but has largely come back from that. I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town. I'm least sure about Joth, but a large part of that is just PoE from my other townreads.

So those are the major wagons that we've had, and I don't feel great about any of them. So it begs the question, if all of those people are town (possible), who is scum? Probably someone who is playing quite well. Hence, the vote on faust, who I think always plays well as scum.

You can call that grasping at straws if you want. But I have certainly put thought into it.

Fair enough to say he wasn't sheeping me.  Maybe I got over-reactive at that point.  Like I said earlier, I was planning to follow up that post with a re-read on you and likely a vote on you (which is what this is now!)  And part of the reason I'm thinking that is you are all-of-a-sudden now changing your mind on me.  "I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town".  Done with the argument, and just trying to deflect the attention, so I stop focusing on you?  If you town-read me now, maybe I'll ignore you?

Vote: iguana

When I had posted 2 days ago about iguana sheeping me, I was definitely under the mindset that he had been building up in scumminess throughout the game, and I'd have a big case.  But now that I've gone through all his posts, even with a lean on thinking he's scum, they aren't quite as bad as my initial gut read seemed to think they are (and I fully expect pushback on a few fo my comments).  However, I still don't like a bunch of what he said, and will leave my vote there for now.  I'll see how he responds.

PPE: 13!! (I'll go look at them now)

[MiX]

I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.

Why are lurkers more likely to be town than scum?

[MiX]

When I was re-reading conference call mafia I came upon this quote from myself:

I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.

I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.

I'm always hesitant to call out the leader-y scum thing because I myself never attempt it. But I can see faust and MiX deciding to. Reread the opening of the game and tell me their banter doesn't feel a little too neat and tidy to be organic?

You uh. You were uh. You were scum that game. And faust was exiled as the Tracker. And ash died at night. That's enough proof of how wrong you are.

[MiX]

Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.

Vote: math

[jotheonah]

I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.

Why are lurkers more likely to be town than scum?

Because scum has a smaller team and therefore more responsibility for the team's goals and more incentive to participate in order to advance them.

[MiX]

Note to math: 13!! is a very big number.

I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.

Why are lurkers more likely to be town than scum?

Because scum has a smaller team and therefore more responsibility for the team's goals and more incentive to participate in order to advance them.

Their responsability is not dying.

[jotheonah]

When I was re-reading conference call mafia I came upon this quote from myself:

I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.

I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.

I'm always hesitant to call out the leader-y scum thing because I myself never attempt it. But I can see faust and MiX deciding to. Reread the opening of the game and tell me their banter doesn't feel a little too neat and tidy to be organic?

You uh. You were uh. You were scum that game. And faust was exiled as the Tracker. And ash died at night. That's enough proof of how wrong you are.

Maybe you and faust saw that comment and thought "hey that's not a bad idea" and filed it away.

[mathdude]

I would like to exile gkrieg. This is partially PoE, partially due to the fact that gkrieg hasn't done anything townie all game, and partially due to XAL.

Try as I might, I can't come up with a way to disagree with faust.

I also find myself agreeing with faust's statements here.  And I add to that the fact that gkrieg camped on me all day, D1, with very flimsy reasoning (and when I responded to his one actual concern, that he thought I said "we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers", even though I responded to that, showing that's not at all what I said, and he didn't respond anymore).

He's posting just enough to feel like he's participating, but he's not really adding anything.  Just trying to stay relevant.  And it's not working.

I am normally not a fan of lurker exiles because they are the easiest thing in the world for scum to push through and lurkers are, on balance, more likely to be town than scum. Furthermore, if gkrieg is town his flip will be more useless than LaLight's. Let's do better.

I also am not a fan of lurker exiles, because like you said, they're easy for scum to push through.  However, I have found scum tend to lurk a lot more than town, as it provides less that they can be caught saying.  As long as town is starting down the wrong roads, it's easy for scum to just let it happen, have a townie voted out, and have other townies look scummy the next day because of it.  It's only when a wagon is started on one of their partners (or themself) that they need to think about engaging... and even then, it's sometimes better for them to just lurk/bus and get town-cred for joining the wagon at the right time.

However, as I said above, I don't want gkrieg exiled because he's lurking.  I want him exiled because he's done nothing townie, he's made no effort to help through D1, especially toward EoD1.  He's around, but being scummy.

For now, I'm leaving my vote on iguana, but I'll gladly switch to gkrieg today too.

[jotheonah]

ANyway, if we WERE going to do a lurker exile (sort of) I would much prefer Swowl.

I think his opening today about "there must be scum between math and joth because we couldn't get an exile through" was absurd and scummy. It's the sort of argument scum thinks up overnight and then fires off at day start. It was especially glaring, as Jimmmmm said, because the biggest post Swowl had made in the game to date, one of a small handful of posts of substance, was about how towny I was. Then he switched to voting me. And then he started pushing my exile hard, without acknowledging his former case until Jimmmmm forced his hand.

Because he forgot about that read. Because it was fake and made up.

Honestly, go iso Swowl. It will take you 10 minutes.

It will go like this:

Prod dodge
prod dodge
apologetic prod dodge
longish reads post that he doesn't really follow up on
post about how towny I am
vote for me
I'm here at (almost) deadline but i'm not moving my vote or trying particularly hard to push an exile through
math or joth must be scum and I think it's joth
big argument with Jim about that
disappears again

[jotheonah]

vote: Swowl

[mathdude]

Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.

Vote: math

Yes it's a giant post.  I know.  I've been trying to avoid those.  But I wasn't going to write 12 posts right after each other commenting about each of the things I wanted to reply that iguana said.

I don't need a 1v1 with iguana.  I just needed to get all those thoughts out there.

Speaking of 1v1, I see faust is done with his deal with Jimmmmm D1, but is now trying to start one with e.  Discuss?
(PPE: 2)

[jotheonah]

I like your wall post and I think it deserves consideration, but I wish it weren't a case on the towniest person in the game.

[faust]

When I was re-reading conference call mafia I came upon this quote from myself:

I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.

I feel exactly the same way right now about faust and MiX.

I'm always hesitant to call out the leader-y scum thing because I myself never attempt it. But I can see faust and MiX deciding to. Reread the opening of the game and tell me their banter doesn't feel a little too neat and tidy to be organic?

You uh. You were uh. You were scum that game. And faust was exiled as the Tracker. And ash died at night. That's enough proof of how wrong you are.

Maybe you and faust saw that comment and thought "hey that's not a bad idea" and filed it away.

Mmmh. It's right there in my file cabinet of mafia quotes. You nailed it.

[faust]

So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?

[mathdude]

I like your wall post and I think it deserves consideration, but I wish it weren't a case on the towniest person in the game.

I disagree that he's the towniest.  But like I said near the end of it... I went into it with a big gut scumread on iguana, then as I was getting through the posts, they weren't seeming near as scummy as I remembered.  But I'm leaving my vote there now until he responds.  I assume it will either assure me that he is scum, or it will give me a reason to move my vote.

[mathdude]

Also, I know there has been discussion about not liking to vote for "X" because all the people I scum-read are on the wagon, or vice versa.  I do plan to look at these throughout the game soon as well, as I was getting the same sort of feelings towards EoD1, but didn't get back before D1 ended to look at them all (I worked later than expected).  Now I get to look through D1 votes, as well as some D2 votes, and have more scum-reads and more town-reads.  Hopefully I'll get to this by this evening.  Back to the family now!

[faust]

Speaking of 1v1, I see faust is done with his deal with Jimmmmm D1, but is now trying to start one with e.  Discuss?
(PPE: 2)

I think you're behind. I'm not voting e anymore.

[jotheonah]

So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?

Swowl lurked through day 1, but for well-explained RL reasons, then showed up on Day 2 and did explicitly scummy things.

gkrieg has just lurked throughout and now scum is seeing an easy misexile that won't stick to them.

Also I don't really like my you-and-mix scum theory well enough to commit to it at this juncture.