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[jotheonah]

Why does ash get special treatment?

When MiX claimed you drew the conclusion that either he was scum or that he was the vig. You said if he doesn’t get counterclaimed he’s IC.

Ash counterclaimed and suddenly you decided that makes him town. Why?

You know ash's meta. Don't pretend otherwise. He has a history of lying as town. MiX does not. Most people do not, which is why most of the time you can believe what people say.

^^^the perfect argument for policy votes.

[faust]

Also not sure why you are so fixated on me. At least two people have agreed with me that ash might well be counterclaiming as town. You are in fact in the minority as far as I can tell, so it#s you who's going to have to do the convincing if you want to get ash exiled.

[jotheonah]

You’re the ringleader.

Anyway I have been trying to convince people to join my wagon. I made a case and I thought it was good. It’s just nobody will listen to me because they think ash is a special magic elf who can’t be scum.

I guess I might as well claim vig and grab IC status then give up on winning the game.

[faust]

Anyway I have been trying to convince people to join my wagon. I made a case and I thought it was good. It’s just nobody will listen to me because they think ash is a special magic elf who can’t be scum.

And I have already responded to your case:

Also, I m ow it’s not as flashy as claims and counterclaims, but I did the work and re-read t
Yesterday and came up with a fairly good case on ash. Isn’t anyone going to comment on it?

I wasn't impressed. But here are some comments. The case seems to consist of 2 pieces:

- ash pushed mathdude because he knew that he was a PR
- ash put exactly one scum in his "would exile" list.

With regards to the first point: if scum picked out a PR it makes way more sense for them to just NK that player rather than tell everyone about it and potentially risk protection. This also ignores that mcmc was on the mathdude wagon and that mcmc's partner is way more likely to be off-wagon.
Second part is fair enough but one scum in three players is also just the expected value. It is some indication but not a very compelling case. Especially since unless mafia recruited scum!ash knew at most one other scum anyways.

I don't know what else you want from me. Here I said why I am not convinced that ash is scum. it has nothing to do with his elven heritage.

[jotheonah]

You know what?

vote: gkrieg

He's my pick for ash's partner anyway. And then we can resume this lovely conversation tomorrow. Or not.

[jotheonah]

I don't think faust and ash are the scum team, but it's pretty clear to me that if faust and ash were the scum team they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it and that seems like a problem.

[SpaceAnemone]

But I just want to convince Space to vote ash, so I'll probably say anything to get what I want at this point.

Do you have any idea how insulting that is to me?

You've decided what you want me to do, and you're stating a willingness to lie and manipulate to get your way, without respecting my own autonomy.

[MiX]

But I just want to convince Space to vote ash, so I'll probably say anything to get what I want at this point.

Do you have any idea how insulting that is to me?

You've decided what you want me to do, and you're stating a willingness to lie and manipulate to get your way, without respecting my own autonomy.

Yes, which is why I won't try anymore, if I'm this desperate then you really shouldn't listen to me.

[EFHW]

I wanted to share that the specific part of mathdude's post that triggered my suspicion was what read to me as their assumption they would be alive on Day 2 to partake in activities.

You know who knows they will definitely not die at night?

This was, in retrospect, a bad case. I also think some people noticed it was a sort of bad case at the time. But what's interesting is it's a strategically timed case. Right as the mathdude wagon was sputtering out, ash comes in with something "concrete" to revv it back to life. Case in point, it totally worked on me:

I wanted to share that the specific part of mathdude's post that triggered my suspicion was what read to me as their assumption they would be alive on Day 2 to partake in activities.

You know who knows they will definitely not die at night?

Ok, this I find compelling.
Let's give vote: mathdude a try.

It was a really bad case because there was the possibility of vig, so scum couldn't be sure of surviving the night. I feel like ash has made this argument before.

Reading further on, I can 't shake the feeling that ashersky was very much the driver of the mathdude wagon and that he started driving it in earnest after THE POST, which is also where mathdude PR-slipped.

I'm going with vote: ashersky

It's not the most extensive case, but the content and timing of his posts around the mathdude wagon paint a picture of a strong player pushing a wagon hard but not looking like he was pushing it too hard. And that possible traitor call is just icing (though if Ash flips traitor, well, nothing I saw in the reread rules out gkrieg as partner). There's also this soft defense:

gkrieg's absence is unfortunate, but I do think that makes him more likely to be town.  Does mafia!gkrieg know that he can skate by with a no-show Day 1?  Yeah, he does.  Does he actually do that?  I highly doubt it.  That's just from my experience though.

I can see a possible partner vibe in this. But how does your case connect to gkrieg otherwise? You didn't mention him until this, but it sounds like you see a connection.

I'm trying to think of the scum narrative for ash's counterclaim. mcmc's death made him desperate? The counterclaim was not at all convincing. He says "I'll bite", as though choosing to claim is disconnected from actually being the role. Then he doesn't want to exile MiX. A true vig would be all over that exile in this situation, and scum!ashersky would try to be convincing.

There isn't much of a town narrative for ash's behavior, either. I'm with joth on exiling liars. Lying is usually a sign of scum. It's super duper anti-town from town. vote: ashersky

[gkrieg13]

--the rest of the post is not required--

why not policy-vote MiX for the way he handled the EoD1?

As a PR, I think I handled D1 well: there were exactly 2 wagons, one on me and one on the other person, they died instead of me, and my PR was of greater utility than theirs could ever be. The only reason math was hammered is because scum got in my way, and they paid the price. The way EoD1 would've gone is: math claims, people back off, people go for me, I redirect them to another wagon, we 1v1 me and that wagon, then we exile that wagon (even if I have to claim in the process). Saying there was a better thing for me to do is having the hindsight (and math's flip) that I couldn't have in EoD1.

With that out of the way, I'm sure we can agree that voting ash and voting me are 2 very different things? I'm claiming a PR and I have no real counterclaims, ash is executing a plan, something he said D1 that he would rather not be known for, this is much more consistent with scum!ash. Unless you think he can be Vig? If so, why?

I would argue that roleblocker is higher utility than vig, but still, that's beside the point.

[gkrieg13]

faust (2): SpaceAnenome, Ashersky
Ashersky (2): Joth, MiX
gkrieg (1): faust
MiX (1): Dylan32
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (2): EFHW, gkrieg

Copied the latest VC here for reference.

The way I see it, the breakdowns we are discussing here are:

1. faust vs. Space vs. Gkrieg
2. Dylan vs. WCD vs. EFHW

Everyone else is just off the table D2 for me for various reasons.  I'll post on these in a bit.

Is this because you think that it is unlikely that scum are going at each other right now?

[gkrieg13]

Also faust has a history of reading me incorrectly and pushing for my misexile, as do I with incorrectly pushing his.

I know you think you read me well, but we have the same history. Why did you vote for me?

I'm pretty sure I was already voting for you but it didn't appear in the vote count, so I thought that was the easier way to correct the vote count.

[gkrieg13]

Also faust has a history of reading me incorrectly and pushing for my misexile, as do I with incorrectly pushing his.

Lol how about you back this up with evidence?

Don't have time to pull that together right now.

[gkrieg13]

Faust, you said that you'd prefer we don't exile either of MiX or Ash.  Is there any reason why that you can share right now?

But also, there is like for sure scum off the mathdude wagon, yes? Scum doesn't just pile all of their resources onto a terrible-looking misexile?

The only unflipped people there are you, gkrieg, Space. So assuming you are town, you should believe that there is scum to find here, and I think you townread Space.

Is this your case against me? I'm the scum with mcmc that decided to stay off-wagon? It was a quick exile, you really think that the two scum didn't both end up on the mathdude wagon?

This is ridiculous. I didn't just "happen" to be a quick exile. Scum made it a quick exile. The dropped the hammer; they had full control.

Mcmcsalot had full control. The others would've just been stuck.

[gkrieg13]

The only way ash and MiX could both be town is if one is lying town. I refuse to reward or normalize town lying. I’m legitimately shocked that this is a controversial opinion.

Town lying has won us the game multiple times. When done correctly, it can be useful.

[gkrieg13]

You’re the ringleader.

Anyway I have been trying to convince people to join my wagon. I made a case and I thought it was good. It’s just nobody will listen to me because they think ash is a special magic elf who can’t be scum.

I guess I might as well claim vig and grab IC status then give up on winning the game.

If you look at MiX's play, it seems obvious to me that he thought he was playing the role of a vig correctly.

If you look at ash, his ploy of lying town fits him, and he has been townie so far.

[EFHW]

The only way ash and MiX could both be town is if one is lying town. I refuse to reward or normalize town lying. I’m legitimately shocked that this is a controversial opinion.

Town lying has won us the game multiple times. When done correctly, it can be useful.

No! It loses us the game much more often.

[gkrieg13]

You know what?

vote: gkrieg

He's my pick for ash's partner anyway. And then we can resume this lovely conversation tomorrow. Or not.

What do you mean ash's partner? There is 1 scum left and 1 traitor. Do you think that I know that ash is scum and am the traitor, ash is the traitor and knows I'm scum, or that scum decided to recruit the traitor?

[gkrieg13]

The only way ash and MiX could both be town is if one is lying town. I refuse to reward or normalize town lying. I’m legitimately shocked that this is a controversial opinion.

Town lying has won us the game multiple times. When done correctly, it can be useful.

No! It loses us the game much more often.

I'm not convinced it does.

[MiX]

The only way ash and MiX could both be town is if one is lying town. I refuse to reward or normalize town lying. I’m legitimately shocked that this is a controversial opinion.

Town lying has won us the game multiple times. When done correctly, it can be useful.

No! It loses us the game much more often.

I'm not convinced it does.

Do either of you have evidence to back this up?

The way I see it, in every game, town PRs lie to look like VTs and we accept that as reasonable town lying. But I don't think it's fundamentally different from what ash is doing right now, we simply can distinguish between pro-town play and anti-town play, and ash's play right now is anti-town. It's also scummy. It also comes from scum. There are all 3 independent facts (well, the third one might not be, but you know).

[gkrieg13]

It feels like Didds and Dylan are flying well below the radar.

[jotheonah]

You know what?

vote: gkrieg

He's my pick for ash's partner anyway. And then we can resume this lovely conversation tomorrow. Or not.

What do you mean ash's partner? There is 1 scum left and 1 traitor. Do you think that I know that ash is scum and am the traitor, ash is the traitor and knows I'm scum, or that scum decided to recruit the traitor?

Interesting. gkrieg seems to know for a fact that there's a traitor and scum didn't choose the option to recruit. scumslip!

Also, if there is a traitor my theory is that it's ash and he tried to signal it to you D1, as I said above.

[WestCoastDidds]

It feels like Didds and Dylan are flying well below the radar.

I am much more present than Dylan!

[MiX]

You know what?

vote: gkrieg

He's my pick for ash's partner anyway. And then we can resume this lovely conversation tomorrow. Or not.

What do you mean ash's partner? There is 1 scum left and 1 traitor. Do you think that I know that ash is scum and am the traitor, ash is the traitor and knows I'm scum, or that scum decided to recruit the traitor?

Interesting. gkrieg seems to know for a fact that there's a traitor and scum didn't choose the option to recruit. scumslip!

Also, if there is a traitor my theory is that it's ash and he tried to signal it to you D1, as I said above.

So you think either ash's the traitor and gkrieg is scum, or that they're both scum? Why not flip gkrieg first: if he flips traitor, then ash's confirmed town, right?

It feels like Didds and Dylan are flying well below the radar.

I am much more present than Dylan!

Yes, but you're Didds, you fly lower than most people by default.

I kinda wanna hear more from Dylan, we probably need his vote to break the stalemate that is this day.

[gkrieg13]

You know what?

vote: gkrieg

He's my pick for ash's partner anyway. And then we can resume this lovely conversation tomorrow. Or not.

What do you mean ash's partner? There is 1 scum left and 1 traitor. Do you think that I know that ash is scum and am the traitor, ash is the traitor and knows I'm scum, or that scum decided to recruit the traitor?

Interesting. gkrieg seems to know for a fact that there's a traitor and scum didn't choose the option to recruit. scumslip!

Also, if there is a traitor my theory is that it's ash and he tried to signal it to you D1, as I said above.

Did you read the entire sentence I wrote? The third option is literally the option that scum chose to recruit the traitor.