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[jotheonah]

I guess I should iso gkreig in case there's something there beyond XAL, which is terrible.

[WestCoastDidds]

I have to admit, I kind of forgot Swowl was playing….

[EFHW]

I'm having trouble keeping up content-wise. I remember also thinking Swowl came in scummy. Fine with gkrieg as lurker exile. I'll work on catching up today.

[EFHW]

Maybe the lesson is that it's not my interaction with partners that gives me away when I'm scum, but my partners' interactions with me.

Your D2 performance in the game you won was impressive. You got caught early the next game because of it. I remember thinking "this sounds just like joth in the last game." And I think I said so. So, if you are scum, I wouldn't necessarily expect you to be consistent with past metas, since you can't use the previous approach anymore. I haven't formed an opinion about you in this game yet.

[jotheonah]

I saw one scummy thing in the iso, which was that at the end of day 1 he comes on and says

"Likely won't be around at deadline, happy with my vote."

but then shows up at deadline and offers to move his vote.

So you could see that as scum thinking they wouldn't need to help but then reconsidering when it looked like an exile might not be pushed through.

But mostly, not seeing it.

[EFHW]

Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.

Vote: math

I disagree with just about all of his interpretations of iguana's behavior, which makes that wallpost look really scummy. I think I'm going to have to go with my scumread and if I'm wrong I'll make adjustments in the future.

[iguanaiguana]

Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.

Vote: math

You got away from the math tunnel but boy did it not last long.

[iguanaiguana]

Vote: gkrieg

I spent my mafia time today looking at comments that faust made on a setup I am trying to open, then came to check the thread. That was a mistake because there is a lot in here that I should respond to and now don't really have time to. I was hoping to do a read through of Swowl, gkrieg, faust, Joth, EFHW, and Math.

That is obviously not going to happen and starting tomorrow I'll be gone for two days. However, I'll be back before deadline and hopefully can do some of that work then.

[iguanaiguana]

I think EFHW is scummy. Her pushing Math is a lot like her pushing pubby. She's picking on someone whose ideas she can see as wrong, and arguing that makes them scum. I don't know if she does that as town but I know she does that as scum.

[iguanaiguana]

And gkrieg is a high caliber player, who has also done nothing but push Math and lurk. So I would say that yes the things he has done are scummy things.

[iguanaiguana]

A few notes to Math (I'm not going to even try to quote that monster post):

First of all, I can kind of see where you're coming from sometimes but you're barking up the wrong tree.

1) my "saltiness" vote on EFHW was essentially RVS. I hadn't seen anything worth a vote yet, so I voted a random player who didn't have content one way or the other yet. The only reason I stayed on EFHW was because of the way she responded to my and Didds' RVS votes, which I thought was scummy. Since then, she seemed townier for quite some time and I doubted my initial scumread. Lately, pushing you I think she's being scummy again.

2) "don't like the tryhard" Not wanting to vote someone SUPER EARLY because they are pushing the game forward is scummy? What? Why?

3) You are being really goofy for townreading me D1 for townreading me, then scumreading me for scumreading you, then finally scumreading you for townreading you. Like, do you realize that you are reading my play almost 100% through the lens of how I'm interacting with you? You are not the only one playing!

4) It's not fair to scumread me for not posting a case when I was too busy to post a case.

5) Yes there was a period of time where I thought you were scum and MiX was a likely partner. I no longer think that's the case. I wanted to point it out at that point in case I was on to something, which... now I see that I was wrong. How does being wrong make me scum?

6) When I said I didn't like the look of people voting Jim, I don't remember exactly who was voting him at the time, but I believe the main person who scared me off Jim was you. And maybe MiX? I think I've already explained that. AT THE TIME I thought you and MiX may both be scum.

7) Why bother to wallpost my faust vote when you've already attacked my faust vote in isolation and I've already responded? Are you just trying to make your post as big as possible? Because that's really weird.

Okay, that's about everything I see in your post that I want to respond to.

[EFHW]

I think EFHW is scummy. Her pushing Math is a lot like her pushing pubby. She's picking on someone whose ideas she can see as wrong, and arguing that makes them scum. I don't know if she does that as town but I know she does that as scum.

I'm surprised. You yourself noted that his narrative was problematic. I always scumread any post that seems to be distorting what really happened. It can be a sign of trying to mislead town or a sign of having trouble posting as scum. I can't dismiss everything in that post as "just town!math being town!math." If that turns out to be the case anyway, I will know that for the future.

[iguanaiguana]

I think EFHW is scummy. Her pushing Math is a lot like her pushing pubby. She's picking on someone whose ideas she can see as wrong, and arguing that makes them scum. I don't know if she does that as town but I know she does that as scum.

I'm surprised. You yourself noted that his narrative was problematic. I always scumread any post that seems to be distorting what really happened. It can be a sign of trying to mislead town or a sign of having trouble posting as scum. I can't dismiss everything in that post as "just town!math being town!math." If that turns out to be the case anyway, I will know that for the future.

Can you show me where you see that he is distorting what really happened? Also, how many games have you played with Math before?

[iguanaiguana]

What I see is a player who is super-laser-focused on how other people read him. To the extent that a lot of his votes are OMGUS spurred. And I know enough of his meta to know that he was doing this in Oz as well, at the very least, and as town. I don't agree with the methodology but I don't see it as scum either.

[Swowl]

So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?

Swowl lurked through day 1, but for well-explained RL reasons, then showed up on Day 2 and did explicitly scummy things.

gkrieg has just lurked throughout and now scum is seeing an easy misexile that won't stick to them.

Also I don't really like my you-and-mix scum theory well enough to commit to it at this juncture.

I obv cannot argue day 1 lurk.
But what did I do earlier this day that was skummy to you exactly?

Pretty sure all of my contribution was the whole math/Joth bit.

[iguanaiguana]

So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?

Swowl lurked through day 1, but for well-explained RL reasons, then showed up on Day 2 and did explicitly scummy things.

gkrieg has just lurked throughout and now scum is seeing an easy misexile that won't stick to them.

Also I don't really like my you-and-mix scum theory well enough to commit to it at this juncture.

I obv cannot argue day 1 lurk.
But what did I do earlier this day that was skummy to you exactly?

Pretty sure all of my contribution was the whole math/Joth bit.

How about lurking D2?

[jotheonah]

snip

See the post above.

Your case felt like the sort of case scum would think up overnight. It is a classic scum case that lets you push an exile without really committing to a scum read. And the fact that it blatantly contradicted your day 1 post about how towny I was being (and that you didn't mention that until you were called out on it) just made it seem even more fake and made up.

[iguanaiguana]

snip

See the post above.

Your case felt like the sort of case scum would think up overnight. It is a classic scum case that lets you push an exile without really committing to a scum read. And the fact that it blatantly contradicted your day 1 post about how towny I was being (and that you didn't mention that until you were called out on it) just made it seem even more fake and made up.

I think your case has some merit, and that's why I was questioning Swowl as well at the start of the day because his position EoD1 looked absurd to me.

But ultimately he did give his reasons for why he voted for each wagon at each point and it seems like maybe you are ignoring that.

1)  He didn't call you "towny" but "too skummy to be skum," which I guess is another way of saying suspicious but probably not actually scum. So to say he went from townreading you to voting you is a bit disingenuous.

2) When he voted you instead of Math, he's explained that pretty thoroughly. Since his initial post, two of his TRs pushed you and 1 of his scumreads pushed Math. So that changed the decision making.

3) I think it must be noted that your case is OMGUS. OMGUS isn't always wrong, but there's that.

All that to say, what I find suspicious about Swowl is that he came, gave all those responses, then bailed and has gotten away with not participating much in D2 so far. That could be a sign of someone who is having trouble participating with things not directly related to them because of being scum.

[MiX]

snip

See the post above.

Your case felt like the sort of case scum would think up overnight. It is a classic scum case that lets you push an exile without really committing to a scum read. And the fact that it blatantly contradicted your day 1 post about how towny I was being (and that you didn't mention that until you were called out on it) just made it seem even more fake and made up.

faust, Awaclus, others that might know: is this scum!joth that saw what gets him townreads and is now mimicking things that get him townreads, or is this town!joth?

[iguanaiguana]

Okay, Gkrieg reread is the only one I have time for since it's going to be so short:

So his first several posts are meta-related. In a way that just reflects where we were at that stage of the game, but it's also worth noting that it's incredibly easy for scum to give that type of participation and nothing more.

so anyway faust is town & Didds is town & MiX is but he's being pleasant and helpful.

idk, nobody's pinging me overmuch, which makes sense because none of you are terrible at this game.

Vote: EFHW

Wait a minute - are you salty too?

Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.

This doesn't seem like scum!EFHW. Too bold.

To me, this seems potentially scummy. Partially because I am scumreading EFHW but also because it doesn't strike me as a particularly bold post that you could form a townread off of that. It does look like gkrieg and EFHW could be partners.

Still haven’t reread. I have just been reading things while I have time. Nothing has convinced me that mathdude is not scum yet.

Vote: mathdude

This is basically gkrieg's only contribution to D2. Just want to say, it is hard to fake changing your reads. Especially so if you are busy and having trouble keeping up as scum. But it is incredibly easy to just post a read, give a reason, then stick with that for the entire game. And that is what gkrieg is doing here so far.

Also, while I initially was townreading gkrieg for his case on Math, I think that because Math is an easy player to pick on, he's an easy target. So I can see the scum narrative there too in terms of trying to pick a town player as scum who looks scummy in order to have a case and look town. And then you naturally end up on someone who is misexiled often.

So, to me, it's not just gkrieg lurking. It's also the content of the lurking.

[iguanaiguana]

@MiX stop asking Awaclus questions, and now I have to go.

[MiX]

@MiX stop asking Awaclus questions, and now I have to go.

Never!

Well I will for this game. You got me there.

[Swowl]

So joth, you don't like lurker exiles except for when you get to choose the lurker?

Swowl lurked through day 1, but for well-explained RL reasons, then showed up on Day 2 and did explicitly scummy things.

gkrieg has just lurked throughout and now scum is seeing an easy misexile that won't stick to them.

Also I don't really like my you-and-mix scum theory well enough to commit to it at this juncture.

I obv cannot argue day 1 lurk.
But what did I do earlier this day that was skummy to you exactly?

Pretty sure all of my contribution was the whole math/Joth bit.

How about lurking D2?

I mean last 24 hours or so sure, but I don’t think I would say lurking.

[Swowl]

snip

See the post above.

Your case felt like the sort of case scum would think up overnight. It is a classic scum case that lets you push an exile without really committing to a scum read. And the fact that it blatantly contradicted your day 1 post about how towny I was being (and that you didn't mention that until you were called out on it) just made it seem even more fake and made up.

So I made a plan to do something skummy which contradicts literally one of the only things I posted on Day 1?
And i am committing to a skum read. It’s just on you.

[jotheonah]

Mainly because I preferred Joth yesterday. And as nothing has changed I still prefer him today.

I had you down as Townreading joth?

TLDR; I think Joth is playing too skummy to actually be skum. What am I missing here?

...

TLDRX2; IDK. Almost everything there makes me want to say Joth is skummy af. The thing is... I also just don't think that Joth like... does that as skum. Especially after opening the game they way they did. I am trying to talk myself into skum, but I have to really try so I think I am a no go on Joth today.

And then you didn't mention him again for the Day other than joining his wagon in lieu of an EFHW exile.

Pretty much the people on the wagons. I was/am way more suspicious of the people on Math than I was on Joth. I wanted an exile to happen so I needed to move from efoo. So I sheeped the one with more of my TRs

This doesn't really seem like a scum read on me.