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[gkrieg13]

Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.

The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?

I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?

To me it is not that math is "all meta and not moving the game forward", it is the way he was posting. Saying that we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers in a big list, without giving any reasons, or even giving one out of the list.

It's a scum tactic to say "let's look at this group", and then not actually do it themselves. At best, it causes people to voice their opinions on lurkers (which isn't amazing), but it is just way too non-committal.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, got PPEd there….

MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.

In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.

@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?

@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.

I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).

And I'm also sheeping you.

This is definitely the kind of thing EFHW is aware of and chooses to do as scum.

What are your thoughts on mathdude? (I may have missed them in the thread.)

[MiX]

Sorry, got PPEd there….

MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.

In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.

@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?

@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.

I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).

And I'm also sheeping you.

This is definitely the kind of thing EFHW is aware of and chooses to do as scum.

What are your thoughts on mathdude? (I may have missed them in the thread.)

None.

[gkrieg13]

We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.

We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe).  I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that.  In fact, we should definitely look at these people.  But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.

I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.

Were there votes on e today too?  Or am I thinking of the previous game?

And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.

This is the hedgy post.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, got PPEd there….

MiX…. What’s your sense on EFHW? I really don’t want to be stubborn, but I don’t think jimmm or faust are scum. And I’m just not sure about Joth.

In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.

@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?

@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm.

I'm scumreading the hell out of this post: it serves no purpose and simply extends a discussion that isn't productive. It sounds like the perfect post for scum!EFHW to do if both faust and Jimmmmm are town (which I think they are).

And I'm also sheeping you.

This is definitely the kind of thing EFHW is aware of and chooses to do as scum.

What are your thoughts on mathdude? (I may have missed them in the thread.)

None.

The fact that you have no thoughts about someone is something I just can't wrap my head around.

[iguanaiguana]

So WCD I think has got to be town for now for my sanity's sake. MiX said that I remind Mix of himself or faust but I don't really see that. Actually the person here who reminds me of myself is WCD (except she's nicer; I'm a jerk). I noticed that last game... both of us were often reading the game the same way. So that has continued this game with us starting the EFHW wagon at first as a sort of RVS but then she was saying that EFHW was defensive right as I was reading EFHW's response to the the wagon and finding it scummy & defensive.

Also, there are a smattering of posts throughout from Didds that I agree with. Here's one:

Can someone tell me why mathdude is scummy?

And the big argument on jimmmm is that he's active?

I don't know...I think if we're taking a shot in the dark someone like Swowl who is just busy elsewhere (which is always super good scum cover, if need be) seems like less of a loss.

So... I don't actually agree on Math. But I have similar feelings about Jim, and am starting to feel the same way about Swowl because despite his continual assurances that he's going to show up, he still hasn't. And at some point that kind of activity goes from null to scummy when you haven't actually posted a VLA.

I realize that it's dangerous to assume that someone who has the same thought process as you is therefore town... but it worked out last game, so for now I am townreading WCD and just leaving that as very much not set in stone.

[jotheonah]

yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.

[iguanaiguana]

Okay looks like gkrieg is here so I will read him next.

General impression: gkrieg's posts are like a wall I can't see through at all. So I am going to force myself to read him based on his reads.

So he's defending EFHW... scummy I guess?
But he's voting Mathdude... towny I guess?

And he's back right now and pushing Math hard.

This post is why I'm voting mathdude. Deciding to EOL, and actively pushing people toward it is a "townie" thing to do that scum tend to do more than town. Specifically so they can avoid commenting on other wagons, or so they can look like they are doing something without actually doing something. Specifically when they don't offer any direction on which of the ~6 people that could be voted for.

Especially saying, "we should definitely look at these people [...] soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours." instead of saying who out of those people is scummy.

Ok... this is almost a stupid reason to quote this post but what does EOL mean? I literally can't parse a word of this post because I don't know that acronym.

Ok and it looks like in his most recent post... he's actually scumreading EFHW? So that should be townie... except it doesn't make sense that he was defending EFHW from a wagon two days ago and now he's interrogating the people who are defending EFHW. So question #2 for gkrieg, what's up with that?

And yeah... gkrieg's reads seem townie but his posts are null. I don't think I have the capacity to read gkrieg until we see flips. 

[WestCoastDidds]

I don’t think you’re a jerk, iguana!

[iguanaiguana]

yeah my towncore RN is iguana & Didds. It was faust too but then I second-guessed myself into oblivion, sorry faust. But I will happily sheep Didds and iguana today.

Sure. So I will read Joth now.

Joth is buddying me so that makes him scum.

Actually, I think Joth is town. And that's because... his scum record is truly abysmal. And I read his scum game... the one he told me was the best example of him as scum... and he was just bad scum in that game.

And he does not seem bad in this game. Therefore he's town. Good enough for D1.

That's my general impression.

Specifically (after reading) what's different between Joth and the scum game I read is that Joth in the scum game had a really hard time making cases and would literally say like "IDK... I gues we could exile Scolapasta???" in response to questions about who he scumread and in this game he does nothing but post cases and reasons for scumreading people.

Oh yeah... and Joth was one of the others who was starting to convince me that Jim could be scum.

The case on Jimmmmm is not just that he's being active. It's that he's being active in a certain way in response to pressure that is consistent with his past play and inconsistent with this past town play. That's like a very good day 1 case. I appreciate faust doing the work to cross-reference it.

On top of that, he has:

-advocated for a policy exile in a really noncommittal way
-OMGUS voted for faust during their exchange
-been soft-defended by MiX in exactly the way that scum defends a partner (trying to deflect the exile without actually defending the player as townie).

There's like a lot here, fam. This isn't just nonsense.

This was a decent case. Well, I don't know about the MiX-partner-theory part. (I'm a little leery of partner theories RN because they screwed me last time.) But the other parts were convincing.

[iguanaiguana]

I don’t think you’re a jerk, iguana!

You should read 2018 me!

[gkrieg13]

Okay looks like gkrieg is here so I will read him next.

General impression: gkrieg's posts are like a wall I can't see through at all. So I am going to force myself to read him based on his reads.

So he's defending EFHW... scummy I guess?
But he's voting Mathdude... towny I guess?

And he's back right now and pushing Math hard.

This post is why I'm voting mathdude. Deciding to EOL, and actively pushing people toward it is a "townie" thing to do that scum tend to do more than town. Specifically so they can avoid commenting on other wagons, or so they can look like they are doing something without actually doing something. Specifically when they don't offer any direction on which of the ~6 people that could be voted for.

Especially saying, "we should definitely look at these people [...] soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours." instead of saying who out of those people is scummy.

Ok... this is almost a stupid reason to quote this post but what does EOL mean? I literally can't parse a word of this post because I don't know that acronym.

Ok and it looks like in his most recent post... he's actually scumreading EFHW? So that should be townie... except it doesn't make sense that he was defending EFHW from a wagon two days ago and now he's interrogating the people who are defending EFHW. So question #2 for gkrieg, what's up with that?

And yeah... gkrieg's reads seem townie but his posts are null. I don't think I have the capacity to read gkrieg until we see flips.

EOL = EAL = Exile all Lurkers (used to be LAL), wow, that is a bad time for a typo.

Ya, I'm going back and forth on EFHW. I thought she was getting a lot of flak for being defensive in her posts, which is something you tend to do when you are being voted for and accused (and commonly gets me misexiled). But then I actually think her question to faust and jimmmmm is scummy. Definitely feeling math over EFHW, but I think they are both pretty good exiles, and I would likely hammer EFHW if it came to it.

[iguanaiguana]

MiX is also here... I really don't want to read MiX.

So reading MiX sucks because I've never had to do it before. Last game I just knew he was town and I was like "haha he is town but he is a wrongo" when actually... well... enough about that.

Much has been made about MiX's super-early-townread of faust. But... isn't that what MiX is notorious for? I don't even play with him and I know that.

Math should be town here. His vote and push on me are very easy for scum!math to fake as he seems very comfortable doing it, but he seems genuine to me. Particularly this post:

math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?

If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.

So maybe RVS? But

I don’t know if I believe in RVS anymore.

Ditto?

Which shows serious doubt over who to vote and how to proceed out of RVS.

Pulling this up because it seems like an inconsistency. I just read MiX saying that he has literally no thoughts on Math. But earlier he had thoughts on Math enough to make a pretty decent sized post. I realize this was from WAY EARLIER in the game. But... does MiX just forget his own opinion on Math? Maybe if it was a fabricated opinion to start with that would be more likely.

Another inconsitency related to the same "no opinion on mathdude" post:

It's not like I have evidence saying otherwise. But I don't really like how there's only been 2 wagons this entire day, and at least one of them seems to be entirely at random.

Earlier in the day... Mix wanted more wagons. When a wagon pops up on Math... he has no opinion? Why wouldn't someone who wants to have more wagons engage with a wagon when a new one shows up?

He also blankly scumreads e... who I think is town here and is also an easy misexile (and has been for years).

The mathdude wagon is extremely interesting. It's entirely composed of what faust would call lurkers.

Too interesting to give half-baked opinions on it.

I kind of hate this post. It's hating on e for not investing mountains of time into playing mafia and casting shade on all the math voters.

So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.

Wait.. so this is actually a serious inconsistency. He claims to have JUST REREAD all of EFHW/Jim/Math/Himself? but has no opinions on Math. What? MiX, I demand you give opinions on Math.

vote:  EFHW

Oh, this is a scumslip from joth.

I wonder if scum!joth's still this obvious...

What the hell?

Ok, and then the final post saying no opinion on Math that I've already heavily scrutinized.

So I came into this reread positive that I would land flatly null of MiX but I'm actually slightly scumreading him. I can't say it's a strong read though because he's all over the place. And some of it is based on a scum!math partner narrative which I'll admit is terrible to do D1. So... when you remove the confirmation bias effect... slight scum on MiX with a lot of confusion and also please answer my questions.

[iguanaiguana]

Sorry about all that blank space at hte bottom of my post  I must have been doing some sloppy quoting

[mathdude]

Let's just look at the wagons:

iguanaiguana (1):
EFHW (2): WestCoastDidds, MiX
Jimmmmm (4): jotheonah, faust, mathdude, EFHW
faust (2): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (1): LaLight

Not Voting (1): Swowl

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm

So there's 4 viable wagons: EFHW, Jimmmmm, math and MiX. Out of these, EFHW is the only one that can be scum. There, I said it. I'll just reread all of them anyway.

The people under the radar have either been on VLA or are actually townie (or both, see: Didds) so we can let them slide for today. faust is town so let's not do that, besides it's never correct to exile them D1. And I kinda agree with e that joth should get a D1 pass, but it's mostly because I can't see scum!joth flipping today.

To those 4 "viable wagons", I'd probably add faust and/or joth, just based on opinions that have been shared in thread by multiple people. But you do address them too and consciously didn't add them, so fair enough, from your perspective.

Obviously, I'd rather not be voted out myself, as I know that isn't helpful. I feel like MiX is likely given, based on his posting, scumhunting, etc. But I realize that might be biased by his IC status last game, and even the fact that he was town-reading me here, (though I think he said his current read is null).

Of the remaining 4, I'm still learning Jimmmmm. I'll go reread them each quick (after replying to a couple other posts here) and see if that changes.

[iguanaiguana]

Okay, who is left to take a look at?

Lalight, Swowl, Joust'emmmmmm, 2.7

2.7: There's not much there, but I think what's there is towny.

Which exchange? Everything I read from jimmmm screamed town

IDK why, but to me that little bit of flair of Jim "screamed" town is something town says, not scum. Maybe it's just something e says though.

And as I've said... I like the Math case.

Lalight: I see nothing strongly alignment indicative in their posts themselves, and they are focused on faust and MiX... two of the players I have less figured out. I am just null on Lalight.

Joust'emmmmmmm:

What can I say? They definitely jousted. So they lived up true to their name. If I had to pick a scum from one of them... I'd pick faust because I'm sick of faust beating me literally every time he's scum. But actually I am null-ish on faust and town-ish on Jimmmmmmm and really don't want to exile either one today. And I kind of don't want to reread all of their ISOs because they're huge and it's about to be my weekend.

[iguanaiguana]

Blah, I missed swowl.

I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."

So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.

[mathdude]

Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.

The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?

I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?

I post what I can to try to stay engaged. Many of you confidently say if you think someone is town or scum, based on tells. I have no such reads. Maybe I'm still too new to know. But you could also ask my wife... I'm really bad at reading people IRL too.

I do try to poke people and ask questions that could get them in hot water if they're scum. But yes, I do find myself engaging more in theoretical and meta discussions, rather than direct scum reads and town reads. And like Didds says here, I definitely think this is still more helpful overall than just lurking and not saying much.

[Swowl]

Re reads (super summary) then just jumping in...

Jimmmm:
Town... unless he is just playing the skum game of his life. The initial wagon on him was weak, no issue there, early day 1 fine. However, the people that started it on said weak reasons are literally the easiest two players on the planet to sheep (mix and faust). After that we pick up Mathdude, EFHW, and Joth. Those 3 are literally my top 3 skum reads after my re read. So all that added up, beats out the one skum vibe I get from Jimmm, which is this....

Post 174 - Jimm says "No I don't feel nervous having votes without reasons. Presumably either reasons will come or they'll be moved before Day's end."

... but then posts from there up to #195 with faust all kind of scream the opposite (that being, yes I am nervous, stop voting me without giving a reason).
... but that is it. Outside of that everything else rings town. Or they are just super using ATE in the 1v1s they are having, but again I don't recall Jimmm being similar to let's say someone like Ash at all... so town. pretty sold on that. 



EFHW:
Skum - It is not so much that a ton of things they have done is skummy... outside of this:
#349 - "@Jimmmmm, at what point did you start feeling angry at faust?
@faust, same question re: Jimmmmm."

Mainly I think their tunneling of Jimmm to be skummy. They got on at a advantageous time and then keep pushing him. Problem there is that the only argument she is making is "he could play this way as skum". There is not really any more of a being made that doesn't fixate on the idea of "yes he is playing towny, but that is because he is skum". See posts 452 and 517... which is pretty much their entire listed case for going back to Jimmmm after hopping around to GK and MiX for a moment.


Mathdude:
Null/Skum
- Opens with RVS on MiX. Then in post #80 tries to rally troops to mix suggesting "he is a good wagon", which would suggest he has reasons. But then in #90 the reason is evidently just "because it was a wagon at the time". Which idk, is fine technically, but the whole thing about skum not caring about who is lynched thing.
- #172 provides imo a decent reason to why they like to just get wagons going on Day 1. Negates some of the skum vibes from the previous posts.
- #165 policy votes Jimmm at a time that creates a wagon of 3. Kind of some skum vibes on that one. Stuck bc Math is normally pretty meticulous and that feels lazy. But also, IDK if they would be lazy as skum. So just chalk it up as weird/skummy.
- #173 decent skum hunting. towny.
- #204 partner pairing reasons. skummy.
- Everything from that point on feels pretty much like good effort Math. With the potential exception of #440 which could be an opportunistic sheep of faust back to Jimmm as it contradicts the reason he unvoted Jimmm in the first place (i.e wall posts and such).
So yeah all in all... middle leaning skummy.


WCD
Town.
- RVS vote on EFHW. Doesn't move. Provides reasons that I obviously agree with. Not gonna waste space, everything they have done thus far rings town!didds.


K I got like 2 more I need to get out, but I need to do some work now, so they will be later today.

Vote: EFHW

ppe several

[Swowl]

Blah, I missed swowl.

I think WCD was right about swowl. Swowl's our best shot in the dark exile, and would serve him right for not showing up when he said he would. But also it's a jerk move to exile someone just for being busy IRL when he's repeatedly like "Hey, I'll get to this later."

So maybe WCD is the jerk, not me.

no one is a jerk. It's on me. I apologized, but I will again. Me not being around was not helpful.
Honestly, I should of subbed as it probably would of been a better decision for town to have someone here posting...  but I just knew I would be back home and realllllyyyy wanted to be in a game. Sorry.

[mathdude]

-snip-
Long post about me
...

Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.

PPE Swowl's post

[mathdude]

Who else were the current wagons? Oh, math. Hmmm…. I haven’t carefully considered Math.

The case there was he was all meta and not moving the game forward?

I’m not sure that is worse than the other under the radars who are not moving the game forward. Is it worse to be trying to engage than just not around?

To me it is not that math is "all meta and not moving the game forward", it is the way he was posting. Saying that we should consider exiling one of the 5 or 6 lurkers in a big list, without giving any reasons, or even giving one out of the list.

It's a scum tactic to say "let's look at this group", and then not actually do it themselves. At best, it causes people to voice their opinions on lurkers (which isn't amazing), but it is just way too non-committal.

Don't take me out of context. I didn't say let's go exile a lurker who we haven't talked much about. I said we still had over 48 hours to look at some people we hadn't yet. We had time to ask them questions, solicit their responses and their opinions since most of them hadn't given much opinion yet at that point, IIRC.

I was saying lurkers don't get a free pass. But I definitely wasn't saying exile the lurkers. I was saying let's engage them. We had a few decent wagons already. But we were missing many opinions.

[iguanaiguana]

-snip-
Long post about me
...

Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.

PPE Swowl's post

Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.

I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.

[mathdude]

We should look at LL/iguana/Swowl/gkrieg/e then. Yes, I excluded Didds, but only because I actually remember joth's post about her.

We have a little over 2 days (about 52 hours, I believe).  I'm not saying we shouldn't change directions - there is still enough time for that.  In fact, we should definitely look at these people.  But we need to do it soon, and get responses and opinions today, rather than waiting until the final few hours.

I believe there was an early mini-wagon on iguana, that fizzled as quick as it started.

Were there votes on e today too?  Or am I thinking of the previous game?

And someone policy voted for LL early, but that wasn't anything for discussion, I don't believe.

This is the hedgy post.

Maybe it looks that way to you. Maybe that's how you hedge. But to me, it was mobile posting, responding to MiX, and not having time to go lik up 4 or 6 people's contributions to the game. I responded with what I could at the time.

[jotheonah]

-snip-
Long post about me
...

Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.

PPE Swowl's post

Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.

I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.

I can think of one fool-proof way to work out Jim's alignment.