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drsteelhammer

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Black Market?
« on: September 10, 2016, 09:29:44 pm »
+1

I remember Stef mentioning changes to Black Market on his stream and asking for feedback in passing. Did you intend to entertain the chat with it or are you still interested in feedback?

fyi the changes he mentioned were that the black market deck wouldn't be displayed in the chat anymore aswell as the BM deck being shuffled wenn you've seen every card once.
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J Reggie

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2016, 10:22:33 pm »
+7

It'd be really nice to have the option to include every kingdom card except the ones in the current kingdom, like it actually says on the card.

Davio

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2016, 02:07:28 am »
+2

Drop the "putting them back in some order" part.
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Qvist

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2016, 08:41:07 am »
+19

I don't really like hiding the contents. The most fun part in Black Market for me is figuring out if it's worth going for it. If you hide the contents, you kind of have to go for it every time, and I really don't like cards that you have to go for most of the time. Also not sure as well how you would hide the contents with cards in it that add extra piles or the Baker token for that matter.

It'd be really nice to have the option to include every kingdom card except the ones in the current kingdom, like it actually says on the card.

An option might be okay, but I really don't like it as a default. Because this means we always play with Prizes, Travellers, a bane card, Mercenary, Madman ..., the interface would become proabably very unclear. Also for the same reasoning, you kind of have to go for Black Market if there is every card in it which ruins the fun of figuring out if it's worth going for it.

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2016, 09:26:12 am »
0

Also for the same reasoning, you kind of have to go for Black Market if there is every card in it which ruins the fun of figuring out if it's worth going for it.

That's true. When I play that way IRL, it takes enough time to set up that you'd better go for it, but online it'd be different. I'm not sure if I agree that you have to go for it though. There are enough cards that there's no way you'll see them all.

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2016, 10:14:37 am »
+8

Yes I was asking for feedback. I like thinking and talking about these kind of things. A little warning though, when it comes down to Dominion cards, all you and I can do is have opinions and reasoning, but in the end only one opinion will actually count (Donalds).


I don't really like hiding the contents. The most fun part in Black Market for me is figuring out if it's worth going for it. If you hide the contents, you kind of have to go for it every time, and I really don't like cards that you have to go for most of the time. Also not sure as well how you would hide the contents with cards in it that add extra piles or the Baker token for that matter.

Also for the same reasoning, you kind of have to go for Black Market if there is every card in it which ruins the fun of figuring out if it's worth going for it.

While you have some valid points, here are some more thoughts in kind of random order:

1) If you put all cards in the Black Market deck (the way the card was designed to), your game probably sees only the top 30-or-so. If both players go heavy engine maybe the top 100. There is no functional difference between a card not being in the black market deck, and a card being below the top-X anyway, where X is the number of cards your game reveals. (except for setup)

2) Your decision to go for the Black Market or not should not depend on its content, period. This has nothing to do with card or program design, just some strategical advice. Look at the rest of the kingdom; if you can build an engine go for Black Market - always.

3) The 25-cards-in-BM was not invented by Donald. Isotropic had it, goko probably assumed that's how it was supposed to work, but it simply doesn't state that on the card. Donald never really cared enough to do something about it, it's only a promo anyway.

4) Putting all cards in the BM is a bit awkward for setup rules indeed. I wouldn't mind always getting an extra pile (YW) or a coin token (baker) but always doing all the setup... hmmm.

5) Putting all cards in the BM might turn out to be too much for clients that don't like loading all the images (say, on a phone with a lousy internet connection). A bit soon to tell though.

6) In the current implementation the combination of full-game-log and a recycling small black market deck implies that on the second cycle you can know exactly what shows up, if you are willing to invest (waste) the time on it. Regardless of what else, I want to stop that.

7) While you may enjoy reading through all the black market deck cards at the start of the game, there is a reasonable chance your opponent doesn't enjoy the wait.
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mustang255

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2016, 10:31:51 am »
+3

I like the way Donald does the Black Market deck; he just picks an entire expansion and puts 1 of each card from it in the deck.

It lets players know what is in the deck without reading through it card-by-card, makes the deck a reasonable size, and is fairly straight-forward for setup and takedown (not applicable to digital gaming, but still).

Even if it isn't the default option, it would be nice to have that as an option when using Black Market.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2016, 11:12:59 am »
+3

1) If you put all cards in the Black Market deck (the way the card was designed to), your game probably sees only the top 30-or-so. If both players go heavy engine maybe the top 100. There is no functional difference between a card not being in the black market deck, and a card being below the top-X anyway, where X is the number of cards your game reveals. (except for setup)

It is functionally equal to the "dark" black market deck with no info on what 25 cards are in there, not functionally equal to the status quo BM which lets you make informed choices in the midgame
2) Your decision to go for the Black Market or not should not depend on its content, period. This has nothing to do with card or program design, just some strategical advice. Look at the rest of the kingdom; if you can build an engine go for Black Market - always.

I don't know when and when not to go for Black Market better than you, so I don't disagree with that part of the advice. However, have you never played/not played BM due to the upcoming cards? Certainly I did, and for example I saw MicQ do the same in his last League match.
3) The 25-cards-in-BM was not invented by Donald. Isotropic had it, goko probably assumed that's how it was supposed to work, but it simply doesn't state that on the card. Donald never really cared enough to do something about it, it's only a promo anyway.

Donald himself admitted that he doesn't bother with getting 250 cards out for Black Market. I think the 25 card deck was a nice improvement, and I'm glad we can credit Iso and not Goko for that.
4) Putting all cards in the BM is a bit awkward for setup rules indeed. I wouldn't mind always getting an extra pile (YW) or a coin token (baker) but always doing all the setup... hmmm.


not to mention the 20 non-kingdom piles that technically would have to be out everytime.....
6) In the current implementation the combination of full-game-log and a recycling small black market deck implies that on the second cycle you can know exactly what shows up, if you are willing to invest (waste) the time on it. Regardless of what else, I want to stop that.

sad times. This is actually one of my favourite things to do with BM, atleast in League matches. I can see the point of researching the log being boring (for your opponent) even if it's personally not an issue for me.

I was actually going to suggest that the Log just doesn't display the revealed cards, but that doesn't seem like a good idea either since it says "reveal" on the card.

I just feel like there are very few winners when it comes to this change. People who already hate the card calling it a "slot machine" will have their beliefs reinforced by taking away more tacticial aspects whereas people who like the card lose potential to use this card strategically.
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Chris is me

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2016, 11:27:40 am »
0

I understand and mostly agree that the contents of the BM deck usually aren't the deciding factor on when to go for it, but I don't think that information should be taken away from the user just because of that?

And sometimes it is relevant - I check the BM deck to see what and how many of "the missing piece" are in there. The answer is almost always "at least two", so I go for it. But sometimes it's more than half shitty cards, or there's so much good stuff I need two BMs, and in both those cases knowing the deck contents matters to me.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 11:41:50 am »
+4

2) Your decision to go for the Black Market or not should not depend on its content, period. This has nothing to do with card or program design, just some strategical advice. Look at the rest of the kingdom; if you can build an engine go for Black Market - always.

I definitely disagree. If the board offers you everything you want for the engine, then you don't need to go for Black Market most of the times (unless there's something like Tournament in there), if the board is missing like a trasher, then it depends on the contents of the Black Market deck if you go for it. If the Black Market deck for example also is missing the trasher, there is just no need to go for it. I know you love Black Market and nearly always go for it. You're a good player, but that doesn't mean this love for Black Market negatively impacts the way you play with Black Market on the board. Of course it depends on the content. If you go for the perfect engine board and in the Black Market deck is for example Masterpiece, Taxman, Scout, Feodum, Fool's Gold, Treasure Map, Transmute etc. that you don't need, you don't need Black Market. It may be true that in most cases on average there is something in there that you might need, but still that doesn't mean it's correct to go for Black Market blindly just in the off chance there isn't.

3) The 25-cards-in-BM was not invented by Donald. Isotropic had it, goko probably assumed that's how it was supposed to work, but it simply doesn't state that on the card. Donald never really cared enough to do something about it, it's only a promo anyway.

I know, he also ruled/recommended that there have to be at least 3 Alchemy cards in the kingdom, but I doubt this will be the standard as well.

7) While you may enjoy reading through all the black market deck cards at the start of the game, there is a reasonable chance your opponent doesn't enjoy the wait.

Well, I doubt my opponent has to wait a long time until I read the contents of the Black Market deck.

dedicateddan

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 02:44:31 pm »
+1

The primary reason not to go for black market is that terminal space is limited and the black market deck contains many +action cards

I like the implementation of the black market deck suggested on the card "one copy of each Kingdom card not in supply." There's a small chance of hitting every good card, and the deck is large enough that the ordering of the cards on the bottom is irrelevant

The discrete size of the black market deck currently online introduces a number of issues. Notably, it's possible to identify the most important cards in the deck and track their position throughout the game
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2016, 04:49:17 pm »
+1

I agree with drsteelhammer and Qvist that it's good to have a limited number of cards and know what's there in the Black Market deck at the beginning of the game.

6) In the current implementation the combination of full-game-log and a recycling small black market deck implies that on the second cycle you can know exactly what shows up, if you are willing to invest (waste) the time on it. Regardless of what else, I want to stop that.
I also agree that this is a problem, but why not just shuffle the cards on each time through the deck?

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2016, 04:55:08 pm »
0

I agree with drsteelhammer and Qvist that it's good to have a limited number of cards and know what's there in the Black Market deck at the beginning of the game.

6) In the current implementation the combination of full-game-log and a recycling small black market deck implies that on the second cycle you can know exactly what shows up, if you are willing to invest (waste) the time on it. Regardless of what else, I want to stop that.
I also agree that this is a problem, but why not just shuffle the cards on each time through the deck?

BM states put the cards back on the bottom in any order. Shuffling the deck would be errata
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2016, 04:58:32 pm »
+2

I know, he also ruled/recommended that there have to be at least 3 Alchemy cards in the kingdom, but I doubt this will be the standard as well.

Quote from: Donald X.
I made the set with the idea that maybe just one Alchemy card would show up in a game - that's why it has so many chaining actions. Valerie and Dale wanted the 3 cards recommendation; they said they enjoyed the cards more that way. So, that's the reason for that, and there's no other reason.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/17872919#17872919
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2016, 05:09:56 pm »
+6

I know, he also ruled/recommended that there have to be at least 3 Alchemy cards in the kingdom, but I doubt this will be the standard as well.
That didn't come from me; Valerie and Dale wanted it. All the work I did on the expansion was done with the idea that you might just have one Alchemy card show up.

As reported I like Black Market to be all of the cards from one expansion; as noted obv. a big thing is that that's easier for playing with it irl. If it's a mix then I prefer it to not be shown (as if it were a giant pile you were never getting through), and to not include cards with setup in it (it's just always confusing, though you can put up a message).

The contents of the Black Market deck is information you might make use of if you had it; that's the point to not giving it to you, to not spend time on that. If I had made it as a computer-only card, it would just pick three random cards every time, with no deck at all (oh probably with a short list of exempted cards e.g. ones with setup).

Stef asked last month if he could shuffle the Black Market deck after the first pass (so that he wouldn't be looking through the log to see what order cards would come up); I said yes. I don't know how it will end up working. If it's the kind of thing someone wants to worry about then I do not need to take that from them.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2016, 06:19:06 pm »
0

Didn't isotropic restrict log history to just a few recent turns? That prevents reading back through the full log to get BM info. BM isn't the only case where you may be incentivized to read through the whole log, so I think providing the full log is inherently problematic.

(By the way, back when isotropic was still around, I spent a little time working on a feature for drheld's extension that would track BM contents. Never bothered finishing it though.)
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2016, 06:21:06 pm »
+6

Didn't isotropic restrict log history to just a few recent turns? That prevents reading back through the full log to get BM info. BM isn't the only case where you may be incentivized to read through the whole log, so I think providing the full log is inherently problematic.

(By the way, back when isotropic was still around, I spent a little time working on a feature for drheld's extension that would track BM contents. Never bothered finishing it though.)

Isotropic provided the full log when the point counter was enabled, and the last 3 turns when it was not.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2016, 07:43:34 pm »
+2

Quote
If I had made it as a computer-only card, it would just pick three random cards every time, with no deck at all (oh probably with a short list of exempted cards e.g. ones with setup).
This is the idea that appeals the most to me. Whether it is or isn't a "deck" that won't show you a second copy of a card doesn't seem important, as long as you don't have to click to order the cards you aren't buying.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2016, 09:11:14 pm »
+1

If BM did use every single Dominion card, I do think it would cool that every game we got a bane card and coin token to use.

With that said, I also like the idea of just using a single expansion as the BM deck. Maybe Alchemy, Cornucopia, and Guilds could be counted as a single expansion since they're small sets.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2016, 11:30:18 pm »
+4

Quote
If I had made it as a computer-only card, it would just pick three random cards every time, with no deck at all (oh probably with a short list of exempted cards e.g. ones with setup).
This is the idea that appeals the most to me. Whether it is or isn't a "deck" that won't show you a second copy of a card doesn't seem important, as long as you don't have to click to order the cards you aren't buying.

I support this implementation. It sounds perfect for online play. It also feels consistent with the intent of the card
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2016, 11:16:14 am »
+2

I would support having all cards in the Black Market deck and ignoring the setup text on the cards in the black market. So you don't have an extra pile for Young Witch, you don't get a coin token from Baker, and your miserable Urchin never grows up, your Hermits never lose their minds, etc. In addition to being simpler, it makes a certain amount of sense that a 'hidden' element of the game cannot affect setup. Of course, if you include every card in the BM deck, the question of whether to randomize the order each iteration is mostly moot.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2016, 11:31:44 am »
+1

I would support having all cards in the Black Market deck and ignoring the setup text on the cards in the black market. So you don't have an extra pile for Young Witch, you don't get a coin token from Baker, and your miserable Urchin never grows up, your Hermits never lose their minds, etc. In addition to being simpler, it makes a certain amount of sense that a 'hidden' element of the game cannot affect setup. Of course, if you include every card in the BM deck, the question of whether to randomize the order each iteration is mostly moot.

Young Witch would be strong but probably ok. Death Cart would be super broken, and Marauder and Cultist would suck.

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2016, 12:03:01 pm »
+1

I would support having all cards in the Black Market deck and ignoring the setup text on the cards in the black market.

I like this idea, and it seems like it could easily fit within the current rules with a clarification from DXV. If the card wasn't visible during setup, you don't do the things it says to do during setup. It's a little similar to other cards like Knights or Ruins where you only actually interact with the one card you can see.

It might break a few cards (Marauder), but that seems okay for a promo. The Black Market already drastically changes some cards (Page, Rats, etc). And you probably won't even see most cards in the deck anyway. Is there anything that would be truly game-breaking?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2016, 12:10:51 pm »
+1

I would support having all cards in the Black Market deck and ignoring the setup text on the cards in the black market. So you don't have an extra pile for Young Witch, you don't get a coin token from Baker, and your miserable Urchin never grows up, your Hermits never lose their minds, etc. In addition to being simpler, it makes a certain amount of sense that a 'hidden' element of the game cannot affect setup. Of course, if you include every card in the BM deck, the question of whether to randomize the order each iteration is mostly moot.

Young Witch would be strong but probably ok. Death Cart would be super broken, and Marauder and Cultist would suck.

Death Cart would still tear your deck apart, piece by piece. It just doesn't give you the convenient fuel. Yeah, both Young Witch and Death Cart would get better, some cards would get worse. But we are talking about the effects of a promo card on a handful of cards which will have a small chance of appearing in any game with that promo, and are limited to one copy each. I'm fine with that.
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Donald X.

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2016, 03:46:45 pm »
+2

I would support having all cards in the Black Market deck and ignoring the setup text on the cards in the black market. So you don't have an extra pile for Young Witch, you don't get a coin token from Baker, and your miserable Urchin never grows up, your Hermits never lose their minds, etc. In addition to being simpler, it makes a certain amount of sense that a 'hidden' element of the game cannot affect setup. Of course, if you include every card in the BM deck, the question of whether to randomize the order each iteration is mostly moot.
The issue was, what if a card really needed setup. Not just a coin token we usually don't get or whatever, or a Trade Route you just aren't getting because it won't go anywhere, but something that made the card no longer make sense at all, made it a rules question with no obvious answer. The way to be safe was to do the setup. The good solution is to just not include those cards in the Black Market deck. And of course ideally Black Market would just say that right on it and then there you go.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2016, 04:12:29 pm »
+1

I would support having all cards in the Black Market deck and ignoring the setup text on the cards in the black market.

I like this idea, and it seems like it could easily fit within the current rules with a clarification from DXV. If the card wasn't visible during setup, you don't do the things it says to do during setup. It's a little similar to other cards like Knights or Ruins where you only actually interact with the one card you can see.

It might break a few cards (Marauder), but that seems okay for a promo. The Black Market already drastically changes some cards (Page, Rats, etc). And you probably won't even see most cards in the deck anyway. Is there anything that would be truly game-breaking?

I don't really like this... what about mats? You won't have any mats since you didn't take them out during setup. Native Village puts cards... where? Can Pirate Ship still earn coins when they can't go on a mat? Is Island a 2VP Action that does nothing? Not to mention that it completely breaks all Reserves.

Now you maybe say "it doesn't say to take out mats during setup". Well it doesn't say to take out Madmen during setup on Hermit, so that should be fine. Really things just get confusing and unclear whatever ruling you decide on.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2016, 04:28:09 pm »
+1

Maybe I'm not being pedantic enough, but I'd say if you need a mat, you get one. That's basically how I play IRL. We only pass out mats for a specific card when a person buys that card.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2016, 04:32:34 pm »
+1

What about this as an option: Only perform "setup" for cards in the Black Market deck if someone purchases them.

So you don't show the Madman pile unless someone buys Hermit. Baker would be a little weird because everyone would get a coin token in the middle of the game. Young Witch would be the really weird one with having to add an entire normal supply pile in the middle of the game. Maybe just no bane in that case?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2016, 05:00:20 pm »
+6

Adding a bane in the middle of the game would be hilarious
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2016, 05:05:04 pm »
+1

Adding a bane in the middle of the game would be hilarious

And there come new rules issues with it; can the bane be a card that has previously been revealed from the BM deck? What about bought?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2016, 05:06:53 pm »
+2

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2016, 05:08:24 pm »
+5

Maybe I'm not being pedantic enough

You're still young to the forum.  You'll learn.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2016, 05:38:14 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

That's an entirely different promo. It's actually a promo event that's a black market with all the events not used in this game.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2016, 05:47:39 pm »
+11

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

I envision a Quantum Market filled with Landmarks that start acting only once they are observed.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2016, 06:48:59 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

I envision a Quantum Market filled with Landmarks that start acting only once they are observed.

Shoulnd't they rather stop acting once they are observed? That fits more closely to what little I know of quantum physics.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2016, 07:23:51 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

Seeing how once Empires id out, seeing any event will be rare, I'm all for this.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2016, 07:28:30 pm »
0

On a completely different note, I would like it if Events popped up in the BM deck as well.

I envision a Quantum Market filled with Landmarks that start acting only once they are observed.

Shoulnd't they rather stop acting once they are observed? That fits more closely to what little I know of quantum physics.

It's more "You don't know what something is until you observe it".  Having unknown landmarks that get activated when observed is a pretty good analogy in my opinion.


Anyway, for what it's worth, here's how I play with Black Market in real life:

1. Make the Black Market deck out of the unused randomizers (kind of broken now with Events and Landmarks, but you can just skip those if you need to)
2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box
3. All setup that can affect the game instantly is set up from the beginning (Baker token, Ruins, Potions, Young Witch bane, Trade Route tokens, maybe others I can't remember)
4. Any setup otherwise comes out when you need it (Madmen and such, Spoils, Mats, Tokens, etc.)

Just to be ridiculous, my first BM game I played we decided to do all setup.  I am never doing that again.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2016, 02:12:13 am »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2016, 07:44:03 am »
+8

Am I really the only person who thought the 25 card deck that didn't get shuffled was kind of novel and tactical? I didn't think it was hated so much. A lot of this stuff seems to be changes that would make Black Market less interactive and more completely random.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2016, 08:35:09 am »
0

I would go for a 25 card black market, cards unknown at start of game, shuffle when exhausted. I'd give the software designers free license to choose which cards are included or not.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2016, 09:26:13 am »
+2

I'd prefer a full Black Market. It's how I enjoy it IRL, with all setups on buy (Baker too, and Trade Route does fun things) except Potion.
I don't own Young Witch, but I honestly yhink that it would be hylarious. Just think of the good times if Menagerie is the Bane. But saying goodbye to on-setup cards sounds like a fine alternative.

I play somewhat competitively, but I mostly play for the fun times, and Black Market is more fun when it's whole.
The excitement of turning three completely unknown cards is priceless. If you always know what you can expect the experience is somewhat spoiled (compare "Border Village! Cool!" to "And here's Border Village, Scout and Transmute. Shit none of the draw cards yet.")
I've found that it also helps in the seldom situation that somebody pulls a real Bomb(TM) out of the BM. If the BM is finite (and 25 cards is very finite), it really feels bad for you that didn't get it, but when the BM is an infinite mine of wonders you'll be a bit less screwed, as you might pull your own diamond out of the tunnels. You might still lose, but it does feel better (I've tried both).

To conclude, I must say that I've felt compelled to "fix" the second shuffle of the IsoGoko Black Market a couple of times before, and it was an unfun chore, so whatever you go for, I strongly support taking that part away.  :)
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2016, 09:36:09 am »
+2

Am I really the only person who thought the 25 card deck that didn't get shuffled was kind of novel and tactical? I didn't think it was hated so much. A lot of this stuff seems to be changes that would make Black Market less interactive and more completely random.

Why are you trying to regulate the black market?  Communist!
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2016, 10:14:00 am »
+4

Here's what you do:

  • Put all cards into the BM deck
  • Remove utterly useless cards that depend on their own number of copies: Treasure Map, for instance; maybe Fool's Gold (although you could Crown it for $5)
  • Don't perform setup specified on cards (no bane for YW, no Trade Route tokens, no Baker's coin)
  • Do perform setup for cards with a generic setup (add Potion)
  • Only show a needed extra pile when a certain card is bought. For instance, add spoils when Marauder is bought, add Madman when Hermit is bought; just hide any "this is not in the supply" pile until needed
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2016, 01:52:17 pm »
0

Here's what you do:

Remove utterly useless cards that depend on their own number of copies: Treasure Map, for instance; maybe Fool's Gold (although you could Crown it for $5)

Play by the rules otherwise.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2016, 03:18:47 pm »
0

Here's what you do:

Remove utterly useless cards that depend on their own number of copies: Treasure Map, for instance; maybe Fool's Gold (although you could Crown it for $5)

Play by the rules otherwise.

The problem with this is that it implies his #1 point also. That's what the rules say ("every card not in this game"). And that means that every single game that includes Black Market would also include every single extra pile. I can't remember how many that is, but isn't it something ridiculous like 40 total piles at this point?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2016, 03:37:50 pm »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2016, 07:12:53 pm »
+1

Another option, because why not?

For randomly built kingdoms, 25 cards selected from all possible cards (regardless of whether players normally have access to those cards), contents known to the players, all relevant setup is done for cards in the BM. When the BM deck is depleted and you need new cards for the BM, shuffle it (i.e. same rule as for player decks). For cases where the piles contain multiple different cards, put the randomiser in the BM and reveal one card from the pile randomly when it comes up - if the card is not bought, then the randomiser can be a different card from the pile the next time it shows up.

For custom-built kingdoms, players can either select for a random BM (in which case it selects 25 - where possible - cards from the player's collection) or custom build one, same behaviour during the game as above.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2016, 06:25:42 am »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
Well, if you go by the "rules" you would have to include every Knight and split pile card separately, because you need a copy of each kingdom card not in the supply.

So 10 Knights, 8 Castles, 2 of each of the split piles, etc.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2016, 01:33:53 pm »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
Well, if you go by the "rules" you would have to include every Knight and split pile card separately, because you need a copy of each kingdom card not in the supply.

So 10 Knights, 8 Castles, 2 of each of the split piles, etc.

I seem to remember a ruling somewhere that you're only supposed to include one of each of them.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2016, 02:21:44 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2016, 02:27:14 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Lots of things work better when there's more than one. I don't think we should exclude everything from that pile for that reason; only the things that don't work at all alone, if that. So, just Treasure Map really. If you want to pick one Castle for the pile, pick the discard for benefit one, that might sometimes do something. Several of the split pile cards are decent alone, in either half; sure they get a bit worse but that's just Black Market Weirdness for you.

Some cards like Rats actually become cool and useful and just fine if you don't gain any more.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2016, 02:33:12 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Split piles are generally designed such that the top cards can be useful even if you never get to the bottom cards. So I personally would use the top card of each split pile in the Black Market deck. But there's no hard and fast rule about it.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2016, 02:34:47 pm »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Every card is designed around being a pile, banning some of them just ends up in a slippery slope you can't get out of. For example, is fools golds reaction part sufficient? What about Peddler? or Transmute/Rats?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2016, 05:12:11 pm »
0

Having a lone Knight from the BM isn't really any worse than having the lone Swindler or Curser or Giant, is it?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2016, 08:01:15 pm »
+2

Man, and we wonder why so many people hate Black Market.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2016, 12:26:57 am »
0

2. When you buy the card, set aside the randomizer and pull an actual card from the box

How do you handle Knights and split piles?

I've never come up to them, but I would probably just get the right card out when the randomizer is flipped over.
Well, if you go by the "rules" you would have to include every Knight and split pile card separately, because you need a copy of each kingdom card not in the supply.

So 10 Knights, 8 Castles, 2 of each of the split piles, etc.

I seem to remember a ruling somewhere that you're only supposed to include one of each of them.

IIRC that was just a recommendation, but that's how Goko handles it.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2016, 02:17:30 am »
+1

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Every card is designed around being a pile, banning some of them just ends up in a slippery slope you can't get out of. For example, is fools golds reaction part sufficient? What about Peddler? or Transmute/Rats?
It's true. You could just ban BM altogether because it goes against the spirit of the game: the fact that you can get the same cards as your opponent. But Tournament already ruined that.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2016, 09:10:51 am »
0

In that case I would exclude them because they're silly without their counterparts.

Knights only make sense as a pile where you can buy more Knights to defend against Knights.
They're clearly not designed to work from the BM deck.
Castles likewise and split piles too.

Every card is designed around being a pile, banning some of them just ends up in a slippery slope you can't get out of. For example, is fools golds reaction part sufficient? What about Peddler? or Transmute/Rats?
It's true. You could just ban BM altogether because it goes against the spirit of the game: the fact that you can get the same cards as your opponent. But Tournament already ruined that.

Tournament was when Dominion jumped the shark!
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2016, 01:00:07 pm »
+3

I once googled where that reference came from, was not disappointed.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2016, 06:33:42 pm »
+1

Personally I prefer the way Goko does it. (I think... it's been a while.) 25 random cards from the expansions owned. If there are any additional setups, then they are added at initial setup and not mid-game. After cards are revealed, player determines order placed on the bottom.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2016, 08:19:38 am »
+6

If you want to take out Treasure Map, why not take out Scout as well?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2016, 07:31:04 pm »
+2

If you want to take out Treasure Map, why not take out Scout as well?
Alternatively, why not just make the Black Market all-Scout, all the time?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2016, 02:50:48 am »
+10

If the removed cards from 1st edition are not available Online, I think it would be a neat Easter Egg to have them in the Black Market deck.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2016, 05:24:24 am »
0

I'm a big fan of not doing setup for BM cards.  We also skip Potion cards (draw the next card) if Potions weren't otherwise out - hasn't actually come up for Ruins but I guess we'd skip those too.  Drawing the Treasure Map is fine.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2016, 09:55:00 am »
+2

Hey, since we're tweaking the wording and rules for official cards even slightly, I think it stands to reason that it would be okay to change the wording for Black Market to whatever the developers and Donald X decide to do, at least in the online version. Even now it kind of bugs me that the card's stated description for setup doesn't match what happens online.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2016, 12:40:52 pm »
0

Theoretically, since it is an online implementation, you could have the players choose how they want the Black Market deck to be set up. Have a panel for each player to choose if they want the cards to come from which expansions, whether players can look through the deck, add setup items at the beginning or as cards are revealed. Could even be set up as a preference, so you don't have to go through it each time Black Market comes up. If there's a difference, you could indicate if you care and how much, and negotiate from there.

I say theoretically since it would be a silly amount of work for practically no benefit.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2016, 01:04:12 pm »
0

Theoretically, since it is an online implementation, you could have the players choose how they want the Black Market deck to be set up. Have a panel for each player to choose if they want the cards to come from which expansions, whether players can look through the deck, add setup items at the beginning or as cards are revealed. Could even be set up as a preference, so you don't have to go through it each time Black Market comes up. If there's a difference, you could indicate if you care and how much, and negotiate from there.

I say theoretically since it would be a silly amount of work for practically no benefit.

I'm sorry, I have nothing to add to this conversation, I'm just supremely amused that Sir Destry has spent most of his forum time posting in the Fan Cards subforum.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2016, 02:27:19 pm »
+2

Theoretically, since it is an online implementation, you could have the players choose how they want the Black Market deck to be set up. Have a panel for each player to choose if they want the cards to come from which expansions, whether players can look through the deck, add setup items at the beginning or as cards are revealed. Could even be set up as a preference, so you don't have to go through it each time Black Market comes up. If there's a difference, you could indicate if you care and how much, and negotiate from there.

I say theoretically since it would be a silly amount of work for practically no benefit.

I'm sorry, I have nothing to add to this conversation, I'm just supremely amused that Sir Destry has spent most of his forum time posting in the Fan Cards subforum.

It's where all the cool kids hang out.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2016, 08:25:58 am »
+18

Thanks for all your input.

These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.

Maybe, just maybe, on some future date you will be able to configure these rules yourself or specify the deck completely. But for now, that is too much work for not enough gain.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2016, 08:56:59 am »
+5

Thanks for all your input.

These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.

Maybe, just maybe, on some future date you will be able to configure these rules yourself or specify the deck completely. But for now, that is too much work for not enough gain.

Oh my god , all the best cards are gone!
At least we can still buy Fool's Gold and Treasure Map

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2016, 10:06:39 am »
+5

   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.

I don't think you should ever find Potions, Spoils or Ruins in the Black Market deck.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2016, 11:27:59 am »
0

Thanks for all your input.

These are the rules for the Black Market deck we'll use on January 1st:
- the deck has 60 random cards you own.
- after every cycle it gets shuffled.
- the decks contents are unknown at the start of the game
- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
   -> Cards that require extra mats (island, native village) are allowed in the deck.

Why isn't Pirate Ship allowed if Island and Native Village are? Neither needs a setup, except for the mat.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 11:32:32 am by Holger »
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2016, 11:42:13 am »
+4

For split piles, can either card appear in the Black Market, or only the top card?
If a split-pile (or knights or castles, I don't know if you call them split) is chosen, a random card from that pile is chosen.


Why isn't Pirate Ship allowed if Island and Native Village are? Neither needs a setup, except for the mat.
IRL you're right, but in our implementation Pirate Ship is represented with a dedicated counter and not a mat (same as MF).
Island and Native Village indeed need a mat, but that mat is invisible until any cards are put on it anyway.

The whole idea is that no confusing things show up on the screen which you can only understand by realizing some specific card is in the BM deck.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2016, 02:49:54 pm »
+1

For split piles, can either card appear in the Black Market, or only the top card?
If a split-pile (or knights or castles, I don't know if you call them split) is chosen, a random card from that pile is chosen.

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #74 on: November 25, 2016, 02:54:28 pm »
+1

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.

Huh, I've never had that experience with avantoes...
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2016, 07:01:17 pm »
+1

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.

Huh, I've never had that experience with avantoes...

Maybe it was never in your black market deck?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2016, 07:52:10 pm »
+2

- after every cycle it gets shuffled.

- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.

Why?  Both these feel arbitrary and opposed to any existing rules.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2016, 08:07:24 pm »
+1

- after every cycle it gets shuffled.

- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
Why aren't Treasure Map, Fool's Gold, and Farmer's Market on the exclude list?

EDIT: Farmer's Market would be just a ruined market if it's from the black market, right?
EDIT2: I don't see why Trade Route and Pirate ship are there. You can just hide their counters/mats until the card has been bought.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 11:15:26 pm by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2016, 08:27:58 pm »
+2

- after every cycle it gets shuffled.

- there won't be anything in the deck that would require additional setup.
   -> You'll never find tournament, young witch, hermit, urchin, page, peasant, baker, trade route or pirate ship.
   -> Only when the kingdom already has (potions, spoils, ruins), you might find those cards in the deck.
Why aren't Treasure Map, Fool's Gold, and Farmer's Market on the exclude list?

EDIT: Farmer's Market would be just a ruined market if it's from the black market, right?
EDIT2: I don't see my Trade Route and Pirate ship are there. You can just hide their counters/mats until the card has been bought.

Because the former cards don't require a setup, unlike the latter ones?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2016, 11:12:39 pm »
+5

Why?  Both these feel arbitrary and opposed to any existing rules.
I personally recommended not having cards with setup in the Black Market deck.

You can build the Black Market deck however you want, so, no existing rules being opposed there.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2016, 11:15:34 pm »
+1

Why?  Both these feel arbitrary and opposed to any existing rules.
I personally recommended not having cards with setup in the Black Market deck.

You can build the Black Market deck however you want, so, no existing rules being opposed there.

So what about the shuffle after each cycle?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2016, 11:20:29 pm »
+7

So what about the shuffle after each cycle?
He asked if he could do that and I said yes. The argument is that it means you don't scroll back up through the log looking for what the order of the Black Market deck is.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2016, 07:19:35 am »
0

I think it's fine to ban cards with Potions/Ruins because you can buy them, but I think cards with non-supply piles needed should defienently be included, and you only get the pirate ship counter once you gain it.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2016, 07:59:48 am »
+1

For split piles, can either card appear in the Black Market, or only the top card?
If a split-pile (or knights or castles, I don't know if you call them split) is chosen, a random card from that pile is chosen.

Sometimes an Avanto is just an expensive Smithy.

And sometimes rocks are just rocks.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2016, 02:09:39 pm »
+12

I've said it elsewhere, but including Island but not including Pirate Ship seems super inconsistent. Island requires an extra mat, but only once you buy and play it, just like Pirate Ship does. They either both need to be removed or both included - any rationalization of just one is probably influenced by people liking Island more than Pirate Ship.

Just hide the PS counter until you buy it, the same way the Island mat is hidden. I don't see why there is a difference. I also don't see why people should have visible PS counters before they play the card for the first time even in regular games.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 02:12:07 pm by Chris is me »
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2016, 03:41:50 pm »
+4

I've said it elsewhere, but including Island but not including Pirate Ship seems super inconsistent. Island requires an extra mat, but only once you buy and play it, just like Pirate Ship does. They either both need to be removed or both included - any rationalization of just one is probably influenced by people liking Island more than Pirate Ship.

Just hide the PS counter until you buy it, the same way the Island mat is hidden. I don't see why there is a difference. I also don't see why people should have visible PS counters before they play the card for the first time even in regular games.

I concur.  Really, the big offenders for Black Market are obvious setup changers: Baker, Trade Route, Young Witch.  With those, you just look at the board for a bit and wonder, wait, why are these here?  As for the non-Supply users, I think you can hide the Prizes or Mercenary or Madman until someone actually buys the relevant card, and then just never put out the Traveller upgrades, since they're useless anyway.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2016, 04:38:00 pm »
+8

I've said it elsewhere, but including Island but not including Pirate Ship seems super inconsistent. Island requires an extra mat, but only once you buy and play it, just like Pirate Ship does. They either both need to be removed or both included - any rationalization of just one is probably influenced by people liking Island more than Pirate Ship.

Just hide the PS counter until you buy it, the same way the Island mat is hidden. I don't see why there is a difference. I also don't see why people should have visible PS counters before they play the card for the first time even in regular games.

I concur.  Really, the big offenders for Black Market are obvious setup changers: Baker, Trade Route, Young Witch.  With those, you just look at the board for a bit and wonder, wait, why are these here?  As for the non-Supply users, I think you can hide the Prizes or Mercenary or Madman until someone actually buys the relevant card, and then just never put out the Traveller upgrades, since they're useless anyway.

I agree, though I could see also omitting Peasant and Page just so folks don't make the mistake of thinking they're going to upgrade.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2016, 04:53:41 pm »
+6

I like the idea of removing ones that are practically unplayable(t-map, travelers,FG,peddler,farmers market) and the ones that have set up conditions.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2016, 05:21:05 am »
0

I would just ban all cards that have the fact that there's more than one copy / an entire pile of them embedded into their design. The problem is that such a list grows pretty quickly.

You start with the obvious cards like Treasure Map, Fool's Gold, etc.
But you could add Rats where it could be an advantage that there's only one.
How about Magpie then?

And Knights, at least you should be able to get your own Knight to defend! But you can extend this reasoning to every attack card since it's pretty harsh if your opponent gets the only curser and there are no trashers in sight. Attack cards only work if both players can get them. So just ban all attack cards. Okay, without attack cards a lot of Reaction cards look pretty foolish, so let's ban them as well.

What are we left with now? Some harmless villages, but wait, what if your opponent gets a village and you don't? Ban the villages!

In the end, the Black Market deck will only contain Pearl Diver and Scout (if you play legacy mode).

I guess I would just ban all cards (aside from those messing with the setup) that have forced instructions that you know can never be fulfilled, such as "gain an X" or "return this card to the supply":
  • Treasure Map
  • Fool's Gold
  • Transmute
  • Page / Peasant
  • Rats
  • Magpie
  • Knights
  • Farmer's Market
  • Gladiator / Fortune
  • Bustling Village
  • Temple
  • Wild Hunt
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 05:33:01 am by Davio »
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2016, 06:52:43 am »
0

I like the idea of removing ones that are practically unplayable(t-map, travelers,FG,peddler,farmers market) and the ones that have set up conditions.

I agree about Travellers, Peddler and Farmers' M, but I'd remove them because they're sources of confusion, rather than for being useless. But I see the point in getting rid of them too.
I'm for keeping Pirates in business, but all in all I'm very satisfied with Stef's solution.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2016, 12:11:48 am »
0

Going back to the split piles/knights/castles question, I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want with that, since as far as I know, the only include one from each was a suggestion, and not official errata for the card.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2016, 07:02:00 am »
+1

Going back to the split piles/knights/castles question, I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want with that, since as far as I know, the only include one from each was a suggestion, and not official errata for the card.
Well, Black Market itself just says "a copy of each Kingdom card not in the supply"; this would include every Knight, every Castle, etc, but only one Patrician and one Emporium, etc.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2016, 10:19:06 am »
+4

Debt cards might work in a way you won't expect.

If you play a BM and reveal an Engineer the first time, you may (I think) "buy" it by taking 4 debt, however, you can't, during that phase, play $4 first to pay it off immediately. You will always get the debt and still have it during your buy phase at which point you can use the $4 played earlier to pay it off.

If you play another BM during that turn, you can't buy any cards, because you have a debt which must be payed off first.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2016, 11:44:19 am »
+4

Debt cards might work in a way you won't expect.

If you play a BM and reveal an Engineer the first time, you may (I think) "buy" it by taking 4 debt, however, you can't, during that phase, play $4 first to pay it off immediately. You will always get the debt and still have it during your buy phase at which point you can use the $4 played earlier to pay it off.

If you play another BM during that turn, you can't buy any cards, because you have a debt which must be payed off first.

Exactly.  You can only pay off during your Buy phase.  Similarly, you can't spend Coin tokens at the Black Market.  They only take Bitcoin.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2016, 03:50:25 am »
+1

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2016, 09:15:30 am »
+1

Debt cards might work in a way you won't expect.

If you play a BM and reveal an Engineer the first time, you may (I think) "buy" it by taking 4 debt, however, you can't, during that phase, play $4 first to pay it off immediately. You will always get the debt and still have it during your buy phase at which point you can use the $4 played earlier to pay it off.

If you play another BM during that turn, you can't buy any cards, because you have a debt which must be payed off first.

Exactly.  You can only pay off during your Buy phase.  Similarly, you can't spend Coin tokens at the Black Market.  They only take Bitcoin.
This also means that if you start your turn with Debt, you can not buy any Black Market cards that turn.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2016, 11:19:07 am »
+4

I think that the current implementation of black market is great!

It captures all of the excitement of fishing for new and unknown cards while minimizing the complications and confusion that comes with such an interesting card.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2016, 06:41:27 pm »
+2

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 

I like the idea of a designed black market deck, but I don't like the fact that this style practically requires that one always go for BM. Once in a while, it might be fun, but do it too often, and it would probably lose its novelty. It seems to me that it would become, "Oh, there's that black market again. Guess I better buy it now."
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2016, 01:53:41 pm »
0

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 

I like the idea of a designed black market deck, but I don't like the fact that this style practically requires that one always go for BM. Once in a while, it might be fun, but do it too often, and it would probably lose its novelty. It seems to me that it would become, "Oh, there's that black market again. Guess I better buy it now."

In designed Black Market games where the BM deck has cards representing a valuable mechanic (like extra Actions), I see Black Market as basically a meta card.  It wouldn't mean that you always have to buy it or always have to buy from the BM deck - more like, using extra Actions as an example, you buy from the BM deck under similar considerations as whether or not to buy from the Village pile.  Don't want any more +2 Action cards? - play Black Market for +2 Coin on your Buy phase or trash it.

There are lots of other possibilities.  A game with Mountebank, Jack of all Trades (or Hermit), and, say, Beggar in the supply where the BM deck contains all the Treasure trashers/discarders.  A BM deck with +Coin cards superior to Black Market's +2.  A game with attacks where all the Reactions are in the BM deck.  A game with Palace in play where the BM deck contains all of the cards that can automatically gain silver or gold - there very well may be a winning strategy for that set that eschews obtaining Black Market, but trying your luck with the BM deck would obviously be tempting. 

For me, those types of Black Market games are way more fun than most sets where the BM deck is a complete crapshoot - the total randomness is entertaining every once in awhile but not usually.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2016, 09:27:04 am »
0

I want to cast my vote for eventually getting an online Black Market where I can select how many and which cards go into the BM deck, including any that could ever be available in the supply (set up and all).  I realize that I may be in the minority here, but I prefer designed games where the cards in the BM deck interact with the main supply cards - for example, games where the only +2 Actions, +Buys, or trashers can only be found in the BM deck.  I played a game the other day using the Landmark, Keep, where the BM deck contained one of each type of new treasure from each expansion - I lost with a score of 121 - good times.  I think Black Market has lots of strategic potential when the BM deck can be designed. 

I like the idea of a designed black market deck, but I don't like the fact that this style practically requires that one always go for BM. Once in a while, it might be fun, but do it too often, and it would probably lose its novelty. It seems to me that it would become, "Oh, there's that black market again. Guess I better buy it now."

Can't you substitute 'black market' with 'potion' and 'well designed potion cards' (not transmute) and basically have the same argument? With that difference that black market is actually, on the margin, more fun.
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juffowup

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #100 on: December 04, 2016, 01:28:06 am »
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I know the conversation is about banning cards from BM for setup and clarity issues, but if there's going to be a list of cards to exclude from the BM deck I would love to nominate Fairgrounds.

Only one player getting access to what in a BM game is often a $6 Colony has always bummed me out.
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rspeer

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2016, 02:07:05 am »
+2

I know the conversation is about banning cards from BM for setup and clarity issues, but if there's going to be a list of cards to exclude from the BM deck I would love to nominate Fairgrounds.

Only one player getting access to what in a BM game is often a $6 Colony has always bummed me out.

You have to have the money at the time and you only get one of it. That seems like an acceptable amount of luck to me.
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funkdoc

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2016, 12:39:09 pm »
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plenty of way way worse cards than fairgrounds in that regard, imo: king's court, tactician, outpost, goons, tournament...

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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2017, 11:25:48 pm »
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So now that it's been a few months to try it out... Is Black Market not just so so strong?  Like at least top 5 $3's?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2017, 12:38:40 am »
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So now that it's been a few months to try it out... Is Black Market not just so so strong?  Like at least top 5 $3's?

Black Market has always been a strong card, usually a must-buy.  Top 5?  Well, it's competing against Amb, Masq, Fishing Village, Amulet, etc., so possibly not.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #105 on: April 13, 2017, 01:26:57 am »
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So now that it's been a few months to try it out... Is Black Market not just so so strong?  Like at least top 5 $3's?

Black Market has always been a strong card, usually a must-buy.  Top 5?  Well, it's competing against Amb, Masq, Fishing Village, Amulet, etc., so possibly not.
Looking at those, I'd put it at #3.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2017, 02:01:58 am »
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So now that it's been a few months to try it out... Is Black Market not just so so strong?  Like at least top 5 $3's?

Black Market has always been a strong card, usually a must-buy.  Top 5?  Well, it's competing against Amb, Masq, Fishing Village, Amulet, etc., so possibly not.
Looking at those, I'd put it at #3.

Well, there are a lot of others as well.  Hermit, Menagerie, Steward, etc etc.  BM was #13 (of 49) here:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16639.msg660513#msg660513
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #107 on: April 13, 2017, 02:41:51 am »
+2

Black Market is still really, really strong. The fact that it now contains 60-cards makes it even stronger, imo, especially since you are almost guaranteed to get any missing engine component on the board and have the chance at hitting the jackpot getting a Fortune, KC, Goons or other high-value card.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2017, 10:14:31 am »
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Black Market is still really, really strong. The fact that it now contains 60-cards makes it even stronger, imo, especially since you are almost guaranteed to get any missing engine component on the board and have the chance at hitting the jackpot getting a Fortune, KC, Goons or other high-value card.

Can you get Fortune in the online implementation?
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #109 on: April 13, 2017, 10:14:51 am »
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Black Market is still really, really strong. The fact that it now contains 60-cards makes it even stronger, imo, especially since you are almost guaranteed to get any missing engine component on the board and have the chance at hitting the jackpot getting a Fortune, KC, Goons or other high-value card.

Can you get Fortune in the online implementation?

Yes.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2017, 03:18:49 am »
+1

Just realized that when a player plays a Black Market but can't afford any of the 3 cards, SHiT doesn't let them explicitly choose "Don't buy", thereby giving opponents information that they don't have the cash.  This sorta goes against, say, the pattern of letting a player not show a card when opponent plays Gladiator even if they don't have it, so as not to give out information that they don't have it.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2017, 12:29:10 pm »
+6

Just realized that when a player plays a Black Market but can't afford any of the 3 cards, SHiT doesn't let them explicitly choose "Don't buy", thereby giving opponents information that they don't have the cash.  This sorta goes against, say, the pattern of letting a player not show a card when opponent plays Gladiator even if they don't have it, so as not to give out information that they don't have it.

It's more like, Gladiator goes against the pattern of revealing information, I think it's the only place in the interface where you can do this kind of thing, everywhere else the no choice things happen automatically and also there's no general way to pretend about Reactions. I don't personally want any of the pretending stuff, I think information leakage like that is almost never strategically significant in practice (it's of course easy to construct cases where it matters in principal). Gladiator isn't too onerous because it usually only happens a handful of times in a game.
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Re: Black Market?
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2017, 01:44:15 am »
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I don't really like hiding the contents. The most fun part in Black Market for me is figuring out if it's worth going for it. If you hide the contents, you kind of have to go for it every time, and I really don't like cards that you have to go for most of the time. Also not sure as well how you would hide the contents with cards in it that add extra piles or the Baker token for that matter.
Only thing I can think up of is a "dynamic" thing where you add Ruins when you see a Looter card revealed.  However, this don't sound Kosher.  IMO, it's fine that users have full knowledge of all cards available, even if accessibility ain't guaranteed

It'd be really nice to have the option to include every kingdom card except the ones in the current kingdom, like it actually says on the card.

An option might be okay, but I really don't like it as a default. Because this means we always play with Prizes, Travellers, a bane card, Mercenary, Madman ..., the interface would become proabably very unclear. Also for the same reasoning, you kind of have to go for Black Market if there is every card in it which ruins the fun of figuring out if it's worth going for it.[/quote][shrug] To me, it's not different than something like risking to see if your Treasure Maps strike Gold.
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