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Author Topic: New Promo at Origins...  (Read 140281 times)

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Kirian

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #325 on: June 23, 2014, 11:23:44 am »
0

I feel like Prince of Hamlets would be surprisingly good.
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soulnet

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #326 on: June 23, 2014, 11:56:20 am »
+23

I feel like Prince of Hamlets would be surprisingly good.

It could be, or it could not be. That is the question.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #327 on: June 23, 2014, 11:57:02 am »
0

I feel like Prince of Hamlets would be surprisingly good.

It could be, or it could not be. That is the question.

*Clap*
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #328 on: June 23, 2014, 12:18:37 pm »
0

I feel like Prince of Hamlets would be surprisingly good.

It could be, or it could not be. That is the question.

Very well played indeed, sir.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #329 on: June 23, 2014, 12:48:17 pm »
+4

Although that specific play on words had already been done here:

Has anyone ever met "Prince Hamlet"? ;)

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #330 on: June 23, 2014, 01:12:40 pm »
+2

Although that specific play on words had already been done here:

Has anyone ever met "Prince Hamlet"? ;)

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #331 on: June 23, 2014, 03:25:26 pm »
0

Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?
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sudgy

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #332 on: June 23, 2014, 03:30:24 pm »
0

Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

SirPeebles

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #333 on: June 23, 2014, 03:38:43 pm »
0

Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.

Yeah, the wording is a bit tricky.  It isn't enough to be set aside, the card has to not fail to be set aside, since it is a failure which triggers the parenthetical statement.
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DG

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #334 on: June 23, 2014, 03:50:45 pm »
0

I think we can have some good edge case thinking on when you would want to play prince with island.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #335 on: June 23, 2014, 03:56:15 pm »
0

I think we can have some good edge case thinking on when you would want to play prince with island.

You don't want the Prince in your deck for some reason, so you play it on the island.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #336 on: June 23, 2014, 04:28:12 pm »
+6

Alright, it appears that I'm 14 pages late to this party.  But that's okay I hope some people value my opinion and I apologize if I repeat anything that's been said about this card already.

Initial Thoughts - Wow, $8 is a hefty price tag.  A one-shot that eats an action from your deck allowing you to play said card at the start of every turn.  I can see why it gets this expensive. 

The penalty for having Prince miss an action is devastating.  Depending on how large your deck is it could be some 3-5 turns before you get to it again.  In which those turns could all have been vastly improved.

The $4-cost limitation puts a clamp down on all of the high powered $5-cost cards.  Obviously Bridge, Princess and Highway circumvent this but in order to do that you need cost reducer, Prince and said $5-cost card.  While extremely powerful, this will be difficult to pull off and both players can go for it so I see no issues with balance.

In regards to cards played, a cantrip is essentially +2 Actions, +2 Cards (and whatever other bonus it had).  Villages become akin to +3 Actions, +2 Cards.  Draw is similar to +1 Action, +X Cards.  Smithy would be like playing 3 Labs at the start of your turn.  Attacks seem slightly less desirable as they have much less benefit to your own turn.  Cursing attacks would most likely already have depleted Curses so they are weak.  Militia by far seems to be the strongest $4 or less attack to hit.

This is clearly both an engine card and slog card.  In an engine, the high opportunity cost warrants large payload.  Especially because Prince does nothing to give it's own payload.  That needs to come from other cards.  What you want Prince to do for your engine is to give you the power to get going.  Starting each hand with either a Village or Smithy will do miles for your engine reliability.

The difference between this card and the other high cost engine powerhouse (KC) is that KC promotes explosiveness whereas Prince gives powerful reliability.  KC can overcome huge deficits by making huge trees of actions.  Prince does not have that ability.  Instead of giving you a few humongous turns Prince will give consistently better hands.  Prince needs to insure that engines start out with a good hand that is capable of better hands.

While KC will attempt to end the game all at once a Prince player wants to extend the game.  If you have an advantage on Prince'd actions then each extra turn of the game will give the better Prince player an advantage.  So while KC usually ends in a few explosive turns, Prince will do better with extending the game via alt-VP.  Colonies help this as do other things like Fairgrounds, SR, Gardens, etc... It's in this paradox where I believe Prince will shine best.  You initially build up a powerful deck but then extend the game to extend Prince's benefit to your deck.

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #337 on: June 23, 2014, 05:25:21 pm »
0

It keeps getting mentioned that princing a curser is a bad idea, which it is, but Followers would by far the exception to the rule. Man, that would hurt. Of course, if you get Followers on a non-cursing board, chances are your opponent has already resigned.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #338 on: June 23, 2014, 05:49:44 pm »
0

It keeps getting mentioned that princing a curser is a bad idea, which it is, but Followers would by far the exception to the rule. Man, that would hurt. Of course, if you get Followers on a non-cursing board, chances are your opponent has already resigned.

yea followers is good because it will empty 2 piles all by its own, and make 2 points each turn, so all you have to do is emtpy a third pile and keep a VP lead, both of which is likely to be doable

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #339 on: June 23, 2014, 06:01:28 pm »
+2

It keeps getting mentioned that princing a curser is a bad idea, which it is, but Followers would by far the exception to the rule. Man, that would hurt. Of course, if you get Followers on a non-cursing board, chances are your opponent has already resigned.

The thing with this is that Followers also means Tournament, and Tournament means you probably want to be using your $8 hands for Province rather than Prince.  I expect Tournament games will move too fast for Prince to be worthwhile, most of the time.
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cluckyb

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #340 on: June 23, 2014, 06:11:07 pm »
0

Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.

Yeah, the wording is a bit tricky.  It isn't enough to be set aside, the card has to not fail to be set aside, since it is a failure which triggers the parenthetical statement.

I'm not sure I follow for Island. Does "fail to set aside" mean "You did not set it aside" or "You tried to set it aside but couldn't due to lose track"?
I think its the first, otherwise this would work with one shots which it clearly doesn't. Regardless, I both succeed in setting island aside during the turn I played it and also never fail setting island aside so either way the Prince of Island's survives.

Turn 0: I play Prince, Set aside Island.

Turn 1: I play Island. I set aside Island and another card per the text of the Island.

I cleanup. Island is set aside so its not discarded. "fail to set it aside on a turn you play it" is false, so I get to keep playing Island.

Turn 2-N: Repeat
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #341 on: June 23, 2014, 06:13:17 pm »
0

Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.

Yeah, the wording is a bit tricky.  It isn't enough to be set aside, the card has to not fail to be set aside, since it is a failure which triggers the parenthetical statement.

I'm not sure I follow for Island. Does "fail to set aside" mean "You did not set it aside" or "You tried to set it aside but couldn't due to lose track"?
I think its the first, otherwise this would work with one shots which it clearly doesn't. Regardless, I both succeed in setting island aside during the turn I played it and also never fail setting island aside so either way the Prince of Island's survives.

Turn 0: I play Prince, Set aside Island.

Turn 1: I play Island. I set aside Island and another card per the text of the Island.

I cleanup. Island is set aside so its not discarded. "fail to set it aside on a turn you play it" is false, so I get to keep playing Island.

Turn 2-N: Repeat

You cleanup, and Prince fails to set it aside.  You do not get to keep playing it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

cluckyb

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #342 on: June 23, 2014, 06:20:52 pm »
0

Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.

Yeah, the wording is a bit tricky.  It isn't enough to be set aside, the card has to not fail to be set aside, since it is a failure which triggers the parenthetical statement.

I'm not sure I follow for Island. Does "fail to set aside" mean "You did not set it aside" or "You tried to set it aside but couldn't due to lose track"?
I think its the first, otherwise this would work with one shots which it clearly doesn't. Regardless, I both succeed in setting island aside during the turn I played it and also never fail setting island aside so either way the Prince of Island's survives.

Turn 0: I play Prince, Set aside Island.

Turn 1: I play Island. I set aside Island and another card per the text of the Island.

I cleanup. Island is set aside so its not discarded. "fail to set it aside on a turn you play it" is false, so I get to keep playing Island.

Turn 2-N: Repeat

You cleanup, and Prince fails to set it aside.  You do not get to keep playing it.

It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"
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sudgy

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #343 on: June 23, 2014, 06:22:51 pm »
0

Awful: Prince (duh!), Tactician (>$4), duration cards, Island, a knight (unless you got it from the Black Market deck instead of a knights pile), Feast/Deathcart/other self-trashing cards other than Hermit
Bad because really dangerous: Remake, Rats
Pretty bad because dangerous: Bishop & other forced trashing cards
Might be bad due to forced play of actions: Throne Room
Suboptimal: Shanty Town, Menagerie, Treasury(>$4)/Walled Village, Fortress, Watchtower/Library/JoaT (unless there's a discard attack)
Good: everything else -- Monument, Smithy, Militia, Scheme, etc.
Awesome: Prizes

Why is Island in the awful category? The Island sets itself aside, but that is good enough for the Prince to let you play it again. Its no more dangerous than Rats or Remake (though doesn't have any benefit), but the redeeming factor is how Prince + Island + G + G + S (while hard to setup) is nice golden deck that becomes attack resistant once you've Prince'd the island.

Prince of Tacticians is so hilariously awful though it deserves its own category. There is no way out of it once you've started. Everything else bad is either dangerous or wasteful. Tactician... you don't even get the +5 cards +1 buy before discarding your hand again, do you?

Both Island and Tactitian fail to be set aside with Prince after the first play, so they only each get used once.

Yeah, the wording is a bit tricky.  It isn't enough to be set aside, the card has to not fail to be set aside, since it is a failure which triggers the parenthetical statement.

I'm not sure I follow for Island. Does "fail to set aside" mean "You did not set it aside" or "You tried to set it aside but couldn't due to lose track"?
I think its the first, otherwise this would work with one shots which it clearly doesn't. Regardless, I both succeed in setting island aside during the turn I played it and also never fail setting island aside so either way the Prince of Island's survives.

Turn 0: I play Prince, Set aside Island.

Turn 1: I play Island. I set aside Island and another card per the text of the Island.

I cleanup. Island is set aside so its not discarded. "fail to set it aside on a turn you play it" is false, so I get to keep playing Island.

Turn 2-N: Repeat

You cleanup, and Prince fails to set it aside.  You do not get to keep playing it.

It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

Each card that sets aside a card means a different type of setting aside.  So, its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)" has been activated, because Prince wasn't able to set it aside.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #344 on: June 23, 2014, 06:37:34 pm »
0

It keeps getting mentioned that princing a curser is a bad idea, which it is, but Followers would by far the exception to the rule. Man, that would hurt. Of course, if you get Followers on a non-cursing board, chances are your opponent has already resigned.

The thing with this is that Followers also means Tournament, and Tournament means you probably want to be using your $8 hands for Province rather than Prince.  I expect Tournament games will move too fast for Prince to be worthwhile, most of the time.

In most Tournament games you want one early Province and then build a lot more before you start adding additional green. Prince being on board and the prospect of princing a Prize only encourages building.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #345 on: June 23, 2014, 06:42:07 pm »
+2

It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #346 on: June 23, 2014, 07:03:03 pm »
+1

It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.
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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #347 on: June 23, 2014, 07:05:09 pm »
0

It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.

The thing is, this is a universal rule of Dominion, not just for Prince.  He didn't need to make anything else special.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Beyond Awesome

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #348 on: June 23, 2014, 07:07:18 pm »
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It's not "fail to set aside (when you cleanup)" its "fail to set it aside (on a turn you play it)"

You're wrong and this has been discussed earlier in the thread. In particular in the FAQ posted by Donald:

If you don't discard the Action then you stop playing it with Prince; Prince at that point is just set aside doing nothing for the rest of the game. That won't normally happen but will happen for example if the Action is a Feast or Mining Village and you trashed it, or if it's a duration card and so it stayed in play, or if it's a Madman and was returned to its pile, or if it's an Island and was set aside, or if it's a card you put back on your deck with Scheme.

I mean sure, if Donald wants to clarify "The text on this card is all a red herring. When you play this card, you actually just draw two cards" then he can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that judging strictly from the wording on the card, you should get to keep playing Island multiple times. Should've gone with something like "fail to set this aside in this manner" if he didn't want it to work with Island.

The wording of Prince is a bit tricky, but it says stop playing it if you are unable to set aside the card. Island is not set aside by Prince. Island sets itself aside.

Let's look at this like a typical action.
Smithy
Play Prince: set aside Smithy
Next turn: Prince plays Smithy
Cleanup: Smithy is still in play, Smithy is set aside by Prince

Now, here is Island
Play Prince: set aside Island
Next turn: Prince Plays Island
Island sets aside itself and another card
Cleanup: Island set itself aside so Prince lost track of it, therefore, Prince can not set it aside.
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dondon151

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Re: New Promo at Origins...
« Reply #349 on: June 23, 2014, 07:20:24 pm »
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This is clearly both an engine card and slog card.

I'm not so sure this is a slog card. It is way too likely for Prince to fail a collision in a slog.
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