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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« on: March 05, 2014, 10:19:37 am »
+27

133 votes on this list. Here they are.

The Best $1-$2 Cards (Part 1/2)

#22 =0 Secret Chamber (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 11.0% ▲1.8pp / Unweighted Average: 13.8% / Median: 9.5% ▲4.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6%

Secret Chamber is the worst $2 card again, but it was closer. It has 41 last ranks and it was voted 7 times above 50%. In the unweighted list, it's one rank higher.

The action part seems not so bad. You can discard cards for money and in decks with many victory cards or curses it's guaranteed $4. But first: What do you want to buy with $4? As a opener it's bad, because mostly you want to get to $5 and later in the game you need $5 too to get at least a Duchy. So, basically it's a very bad Vault and you better buy a Silver. But there are rare cases, especially you can use it when you need virtual money like in Tactician turns, or you draw your whole deck with Scrying Pools discard all action cards with Secret Chamber for money just to draw them again, or when you want to buy Grand Markets. It's reaction part is really bad. It has nearly no effect against the best attacks: Cursers and Handsize-Reducers, but you can use it against cards that mess up the top of your deck or trash cards from your deck, like Swindler, Pirate Ship or Knights. But most of them (like Thief) are already bad. Why buy a reaction card against Thief? Yes, it's nice against Minion, but that's all.
#21 =0 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 12.1% ▲0.2pp / Unweighted Average: 12.8% / Median: 9.5% ▲2.8pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6%

Duchess stayed also where it was: second last. It has the second lowest deviation in this list. It has 23 last votes and only 3 voted it above 50%.

It's a terminal silver with a spy-effect that has even a benefit for your opponents. Yeah, it's even so bad that it needs a clause to get it for free when you buy a Duchy.
And mostly that are the only cases you want a Duchess. Rarely you want to spend $2 to buy one. Once in a while you want it for free, especially when you are trying to make a "green card rush" with Duke or Silk Road and want to maintain the buying power and emptying the third pile as fast as possible. Getting it for free is probably the only reason that it isn't ranked last. That means: A Duchess for free is even better than a Secret Chamber for $2.
#20 =0 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 15.7% ▲2.4pp / Unweighted Average: 17.5% / Median: 14.3% ▲3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.5%

Pearl Diver is better than last year, but still third last. In the unweighted list, it's even better. It was voted 23 times last and 9 times above average.

Pearl Diver mostly don't hurt in your deck as it is a cantrip. So, if you got $2 early and you don't want to buy an Estate, you can buy a Pearl Diver. Buying too much Duchesses or Secret Chambers hurts much more than too many Pearl Divers. But the benefit of Pearl Diver is lower than those cards. It's only use is to minimize draw luck a little bit and to let cards shine which interact with the top card of your deck (Native Village comes into my mind). Since Cornucopia it might got a little boost as it can add more diversity into your deck and cards like Menagerie, Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty can profit from it. It can also be essential for a Conspirator chain, but Pearl Diver never really shines, it only hurts less.
#19 =0 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 21.8% ▲1.0pp / Unweighted Average: 24.8% / Median: 19.1%  ▼1.4pp / Standard Deviation: 21.0%

Over 6pp better is Herbalist and its unweighted average is even 3pp higher. Still it stays on fourth last. It was voted 12 times last and 15 times above average.

Herbalist is a terminal copper. How bad is that! So, mostly it hurts. But "scheming" your treasures is really nice. In the beginning you can use your newly bought Gold or even Platinum twice if you have the luck to draw it with Herbalist. And even putting back a Silver is not so bad in the beginning. But especially if you're going for Potion (because of that it's in Alchemy) you can use it twice early on. The most important combo might be Alchemist+Herbalist. And - mostly forgotten - it's one of few $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one - besides Candlestick Maker - which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option). The +Buy and putting back Treasure cards makes Herbalist + Philosopher's Stone a very powerful combo. But otherwise this card is mostly not worth buying.
#18 ▼2 Beggar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 30.6% ▼4.2pp / Unweighted Average: 31.0% / Median: 28.6% ▼3.0pp / Standard Deviation: 21.2%

Beggar is the first loser in this list. It's over 4pp worse and lost 2 ranks. It was voted last 9 times and 25 times above average. It has the fifth highest deviation in this list.

As gaining Coppers is generally bad, this card is very situational as the high deviation suggests. Beggar/Gardens is a power combo. With Beggar you can green very early and are still likely to hit $4 and gain 4 cards in a turn with Beggar in hand. As Copper is no bad card for alternative Victory cards in general, it works also decent with Silk Road, Duke and Feodum (if your opponent is going to attack you a lot). Beggar also helps you to get to $5 and then Counting House is a solid option to buy especially in slogs or in Colony games. It even helps you to get to $6 or $7, but of all the expensive cards Bank might be the only one worth it as Beggar + Bank gives you already $7 guaranteed. It might also work well in decks that like Coppers, like Philosopher's Stone and Apothecary. But in general the 3 Coppers really slow you down and are a big disadvantage, but near the end a terminal Gold isn't that bad. The reaction part is not so strong in general and depends on the attack card. It's great against Pillage and is also nice against Jester/Swindler/Saboteur/Knights as they don't want to hit Silver.
#17 ▲1 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 33.9% ▲10.0pp / Unweighted Average: 33.1% / Median: 28.6% ▲7.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.1%

Moat is a big winner this year. It is 10 percentage points and one rank higher than last year. It also had a high deviation last time, this year it's the sixth lowest. Only 4 people voted it last and 25 voted it above average.

Moat is very situational. It highly depends on the cards on the board and - more important - on the number of players. If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat is generally a must-buy. It can prevent getting 3 coppers and 3 curses in one turn. But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers or Library/Watchtower/Menagerie against hand-size-reducing is mostly the better alternative. Even worse, if there's no attack card on the board, +2 cards with no other benefit is so weak, because that means a raw benefit of +1 card. Maybe only if your going for Big Money with bad other cards and you're getting unlucky and hit $2 early, this might be worth considering.
#16 ▲1 Vagrant (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 36.4% ▲9.7pp / Unweighted Average: 36.6% / Median: 33.3% ▲12.2pp / Standard Deviation: 20.2%

Vagrant made a big jump similar to Moat. It's also nearly 10pp and one rank better. It was voted last once.

Vagrant is the fixed Scout. It has the advantage over Scout that it is at least a cantrip, so it never hurts as long as you don't draw it dead. Also it can put Shelters, Ruins and Curses in hand while Scout can't. But on the other hand, it's at best only a Laboratory where one of the two cards is dead anyway. You basically just have a chance to make your next hand better. So, in essence it's similar to Pearl Diver, a nice card for engines if you have spare buys which will occasionally help you but is never a real Power House. It can only shine in heavy Curse/Ruins games where you have a lot of $2 hands anyway and in situations where you want those cards in hand, especially dual-type Victory cards like Great Hall, Nobles and Harem. It could also work as a soft counter against Ghost Ship.
#15 ▼1 Poor House (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 37.8% ▼8.5pp / Unweighted Average: 38.3% / Median: 38.1% ▼9.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6%

This is the only card costing $1 and it's not last. But it lost quite a bit in comparism to last year. It's one rank worse and lost over 8 percentage points. It was voted last 3 times.

Poor House is the shiny $1 card that let you look differently at Remake and Upgrade as you can't trash Coppers without having to gain a card anymore when it's on the board. Poor House looks really complicated, but is similar to Secret Chamber in that manner that it guarantees $4 in a 5-card hand. It even doesn't care about the size of your hand. But it's only really useful in treasure-less decks where it is a terminal $4. A hand of 2 Poor Houses and Hamlet basically guarantees a Province. So, it loves engines with virtual coins and of course it loves +buy as you can pick up multiple Poor Houses in one turn. Mint/Poor House can also be a really good opening. But in Big Money decks or Draw Engines without trashing Poor House is horrible. A 2-card hand of King's Court and Poor House even guarantees a Colony, great for a card costing only $1.
#14 ▼1 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 40.7% ▼7.3pp / Unweighted Average: 39.6% / Median: 38.1% ▼9.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8%

Embargo lost nearly as much as Poor House and also dropped one rank. It was voted last 3 times.

First, it's a terminal silver. Basically that's bad. But it's a one-shot. So if you get unlucky and hit $2 early you can buy it without much thinking as it only interferes once. But Embargo can be a game-changer, especially if you and your opponent(s) are taking different strategies. And it really shines if your opponent buys a Potion and you decide not to go for Potion. Just embargo the Potion-cost card and you are turns ahead. And especially you can shut down strategies that want a lot of a single card, like Hunting Party, Alchemist or alternative victory cards. So, it's nearly never bad, but only shines situation-wise.
#13 ▲2 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 43.2% ▲6.2pp / Unweighted Average: 43.6% / Median: 42.9% ▲6.1pp / Standard Deviation: 19.9%

Cellar is 2 ranks higher than last year, ignoring the new Guilds cards, and has over 6pp more than last year. It was voted last twice.

There are many cards that take profit from bad cards like Estate or Curses. Secret Chamber fails - as mentioned earlier - by just getting $1 per card. Cellar let you discard them and get you get your good cards in hand. Of course Warehouse is better in most cases as it let you draw your cards before discarding, but Cellar can even discard more than 3 cards if you wish. If you want compare Cellar with another $2 card, Crossroads comes into your mind. Crossroads also lets you draw more cards for useless cards. But it is limited to green cards, so you get no benefit for Curses and Coppers. But you don't have to discard them and it gives you +3 Actions the first time. So it highly depends which card is better. In cursing games Cellar's great. And of course with Tunnel. The problem is often the opportunity cost; when do you want to spend your money on a $2 mediocre card?
#12 ▼2 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 44.0% ▼12.7pp / Unweighted Average: 46.1% / Median: 47.6% ▼10.3pp / Standard Deviation: 22.1%

Haven is a really big loser. Over 12pp worse, wow! This results also in being 2 ranks worse than last year. It has 2 last votes.

Haven reduces your hand size by one, but your next hand size is bigger, that hurts very rarely, so it's like a mini-Tactician. And this ability to minimize draw luck is great. You have $11, just set a Gold aside. You have $7, just set a Copper aside. Two terminal actions in hand, no problem. A village you don't need this turn, etc. You get your maximum out of your money and your actions. It's a pretty solid card, but no game-changer what may be the reason why it isn't rated higher. It supports every strategy but isn't a strategy on its own.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:29:03 pm by Qvist »
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2014, 10:19:51 am »
+13

The Best $1-$2 Cards (Part 2/2)

#11 =0 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 47.8% ▼4.6pp / Unweighted Average: 48.8% / Median: 52.4% ▼0.2pp / Standard Deviation: 20.4%

Pawn lost nearly 5pp, but is still on the same rank - ignoring Guilds cards.

Pawn is bad if you don't know how to play it and simply use it as a cantrip. But it can be very useful as a cheap source of +Buy and in the beginning it's mostly a cheap Silver if you use it for card + money. Its flexibility makes it good. But it's not great, but can be very useful in a lot of case. It's great as source of +Buy or +$1 in Minion games and is good in engines with draw-up-to-X cards like Watchtower. It can win your game because you picked it up for +Buy but normally it's no game-changer. And if you use it for card + action it at least doesn't hurt.
#10 ▲2 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 50.9% ▼0.1pp / Unweighted Average: 51.7% / Median: 52.4% ▲5.0pp / Standard Deviation: 23.1%

Native Village has nearly the same value, but is 2 ranks better than last year. It has also the second highest deviation in this list, with 3 last places on one side and 10 votes above 90% on the other side.

The problem with NV is that you get no immediate benefit beside the +2 Actions. If you use it as a cheap village you only draw 1/2 card per play. But that's not the intended use. But you can use it either as a pseudo-trasher by putting bad cards on the mat. But normally it fails that you cannot choose the card to put there. You need assistence with cards like Spy or especially Apothecary. The best use may be to use it for mega-turn with a lot of buys. NV+Bridge is the most effective combo. It's also neat on boards with heavy cursing to either forge a big hand or to get at least once to $6-$8.
#9 =0 Crossroads (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 60.3% ▼4.6pp / Unweighted Average: 62.5% / Median: 61.9% ▼6.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.3%

Now we're making a huge jump of nearly 10pp. Crossroads is on the same rank, but lost nearly 5pp. It's the first card with no last rank. It was even voted first 4 times.

Crossroads is the only card with +3 Actions (yeah Fishing Village has it too in some way). And this can be very useful. The problem is the luck factor you need with that card. If you buy it early and get a hand with 4 coppers, you wish it were a Silver or one of the next $2 cards. Later you draw it with 3 Estates and you draw now your Vault and you can buy a Province for sure. It combos well with cards that take advantage of big hands. So Crossroads + Vault is very good as is Wharf/Crossroads. And of course it's great with your good $5 attacks, especially setting up a Torturer chain. Baron + Crossroads is also nice because it gives you the actions to play multiples and you can much easier connect Estate and Baron together. Crossroads is rarely a reason to go green earlier, but it helps a lot in the end game and can assure you won't lose your buying power. And sometimes there are so many good terminals that you only want it for its 3 Actions. As mentioned above another problem is that it only synergizes with victory cards not with curses what makes it a worse alternative to Cellar in cursing games. Drawing without having to discard is often better because you have targets for other cards, for example trash-for-benefit cards.
#8 Stonemason (Guilds) Weighted Average: 64.3% / Unweighted Average: 63.1% / Median: 71.4% / Standard Deviation: 25.4%

Stonemason is now the first Guilds card. It has the highest deviation in this list with 6 first ranks and 3 last ranks.

Stonemason's on play effect is in general pretty weak. It's slow in Copper trashing and bad in Estate trashing as you have to gain Coppers. It's best use may be to trash Golds (or other $6+ costs) for 2 Duchies in the end game or strong $5s in the mid game. This is especially great with Gold gainers like Market Square. You can also use it to pile out rather quick. The big strength is the overpay effect though. Gaining two engine pieces for $2 more is a great deal, even at the cost of having to gain a often useless card. The overpay effect works also great with Potion cost cards, like Apothecary where Estate trashing for 2 Coppers isn't that bad. It comboes also well with Quarry because you can gain 2 cards for the cost of one. But if you don't go for an engine this cards is mostly useless, so it's very situational. Just beware of the piles when you play with it because both effects lead to very early endings.
#7 Candlestick Maker (Guilds) Weighted Average: 67.4% / Unweighted Average: 65.6% / Median: 71.4% / Standard Deviation: 22.0%

And the next card is the other new cheap Guilds card. It has also still a pretty high deviation, the fourth highest.

Nonterminal buy and coin tokens, both are very powerful. Candlestick Maker combines these two things into one strong card. Unless you choose +1 Card, it's always superior to Pawn as you get always 3 of the 4 options and the coin token is even stronger than +1$. It is a very good addition to most decks. It's good in engines where you want that nonterminal +Buy and in money strategies without terminal draw, the coin tokens will smooth out your hands. Only in terminal draw BM decks it's not that good as you can draw it dead.
#6 ▼1 Lighthouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 70.2% ▼5.4pp / Unweighted Average: 70.2% / Median: 71.4% ▼7.5pp / Standard Deviation: 18.7%

Lighthouse lost one rank again. It has lost over 5pp. It was voted 6 times below 25%. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank higher.

With Lighthouse on the board, you really need to evualate if it's worth building an attacking engine. It may the best Reaction that isn't even blue. Why? Most important: It's non-terminal. Unlike Moat, it cannot collide with other terminal actions or another copy. Second: It gives you money. It may look like a Copper, but after you play it, you are safe and get even another $1 the next turn. Without the reaction part it's still nearly as good as Silver, but on boards with heavy attacks, it's clearly superior to Silver. You only have to make sure you play one Lighthouse each turn.
#5 ▲1 Squire (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 71.6% ▲0.7pp / Unweighted Average: 69.9% / Median: 76.2% ▲2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.7%

Squire is a little bit better than last time, but even one rank higher. In the unweighted ranking it would stay on the same rank. It was voted 6 times below 25%.

Squire is strong because of its flexibility similar to Pawn. Squire's first option +2 Actions is stronger than Pawn's +$1, +1 Action and can be useful in engines or when Squires collide. Squire's second option +2 Buys is also stronger than Pawn's +1$, +1 Buy and can be very useful in buying more Squires, in alt-VP games like Gardens games where buying Coppers isn't that bad and of course in engines where having extra buys is very important. And Squire's third option, gaining a Silver is a great choice whenever you don't need Actions or Buys and can be great if you go for Feodum or any other alt-VP too. And there's its on-trash effect which is very powerful. You can open Chapel/Squire, trash down your deck and gain a Goons on the way. It only misses the draw, but is useful in any engine and most alt-VP games.
#4 ▼2 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 80.7% ▼7.5pp / Unweighted Average: 78.8% / Median: 85.7% ▼3.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.9%

We're making a jump of around 9pp and are finding the next big loser. Hamlet lost over 7pp and 2 ranks. In the unweighted ranking it would be still one rank higher. It was voted 11 times below 50%.

It's one of the best villages around. Yes, you have to discard one card as "payment" for the second action, but if you really need the +2 Actions there's no problem for you to discard that Copper. And most important: Most engines lack +Buy. Hamlet may provide that for another card as payment. Even if you don't need the +2 Actions for your strategy, a non-terminal card with +Buy is always worth to buy. So, if you use both options, you have a Worker's Village for $2, but you have to "pay" for that options. And when you got your first Hamlet you can easily buy more Hamlets with that additional +Buy. With "draw up to" cards like Watchtower or Library it's brilliant and everybody's favourite for engine building. Of course it's not that useful in Big Money boards what may be the reason for not being in the Top 3 this time.
#3 =0 Courtyard (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 80.9% ▼1.5pp / Unweighted Average: 76.3% / Median: 85.7% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 21.1%

Courtyard lost a bit, but is still on the same rank. Its unweighted average is clearly worse though which results in a fourth rank in the unweighted ranking. It was voted 12 times below 50%.

Courtyard is really great with Big Money. Like Haven it minimizes shuffle luck by putting a card on top of the deck, so if you have too much money or a second Courtyard in hand, that's no problem. But you don't get a 6 card hand like with Haven. But the card draw makes it one of the best Big Money enablers and that's outstanding for a $2 card and if you compare it with Smithy which costs $4. Its concept is simple but very effective. Don't underestimate the power of Courtyard. Additionally Courtyard is also a good drawer in engines as you can put your strong colliding terminal action also on top of your deck. So it's nearly everytime a very strong card.
#2 ▲2 Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 83.1% ▲1.9pp / Unweighted Average: 80.7% / Median: 85.7%▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 19.5%

Fool's Gold is only a bit better, but it's enough to be 2 ranks higher. It has 11 votes below 50%.

Going for Fool's Gold is its own strategy. If you buy just one or two, it mostly isn't worth it, because the reaction part isn't the strong part. You want FG in masses, in high density. With a card with money and +Buy and/or a card drawer it's really great and you have to go for it. Goal: Get as many FGs as you can. Margrave + FG, Wharf + FG or Nomad Camp + FG are good combos, Remodel + FG and Mine + FG as well, but you can get even higher density with Mint. Mint + FG used to be one of the best openings on Councilroom. That may reason enough that FG deserves to be in the Top 3. Connecting at least two FG isn't that hard if you've got lots of them. And then it's better than Silver. But you really have to analyze when to buy it. On boards with strong cursers where it's unlikely to connect them, it's one of the worst cards - on other boards it's the best card.
#1 =0 Chapel (Base) Weighted Average: 96.1% ▼3.2pp / Unweighted Average: 94.8% / Median: 100% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 12.9%

Chapel has still a huge lead, but it lost quite a bit in points, so the first rank isn't that secure anymore. Still, it's the card with the lowest deviation in this list and it was only voted 4 times below 50%.

So, what's up with that uber-card? Even Donald X. admitted that Chapel is a little bit overpowered and he won't release another card so strong like Chapel in future expansions. Trashing is important in the beginning, and the cost of Chapel enables everyone to open with Chapel. According to Councilroom shows it's veeery strong, but only if you open with it. You even want to start Chapel/Silver with 3/4. It's not every time a must-buy but in most occasions it is. It's so strong that you already can say you lost if your opponent opened Witch/Chapel and you have a 4/3 start. Mountebank/Chapel used to be the overall best opener and with Govenor/Chapel and Tournament/Chapel it was three times in the Top 5 openings and 6 times in the Top 10 and 29 times in the top #100. So, its power is undeniable. I do agree that it's more often skippable than it used to be, especially on Big Money boards or other boards with strong key cards which you want ASAP.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 08:09:05 am by Qvist »
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RTT

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2014, 11:03:32 am »
+2

Oh cool its getting started.
Quote
Herbalist:
mostly forgotten - it's one of three $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option).
Are you refering to hamlet and Pawn?
I think you forgot Candlestickmaker and Squire?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2014, 11:37:07 am »
0

LISTS

Biggest disagreements here:
- I had Moat at #11 and I stand by it.  It's a totally reasonable defense in the presence of villages, and 2 Draw could be a lot worse.  Moat did go up this year, that said.  I'd be pretty satisfied by just swapping Poor House and Moat's position, I guess.
- Pretty convinced at this point Haven is overrated, though it isn't actually much higher than where I put it so that's cool.

So, looking at my own list, the only card not present here is Pawn, which I have right next to Moat anyway.  Overall, I'm inclined to mostly agree with the bottom 11 here.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2014, 11:58:30 am »
+1

I think I'd put Pearl Diver last. It just seems to matter so seldom. Secret Chamber is weak, but at least it makes a difference when I do buy it. Duchess is a nice freebie in slogs, though I almost never buy one for $2.

So yeah, I don't think I'd notice if Pearl Diver disappeared. I don't think I can say that about any other card, except maybe Feast.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:29:36 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 12:14:48 pm »
+1

I think the deviation for pearldriver is almost entierly based on how we measure the powerlevel of a card, not on how good we think pearldriver really is. One criterion is: how often do I buy it, and here pearl driver performs fairly decent, because you'll usually always buy it if you can't buy anything else. Another criterion would be: how much impact does it have on my deck. Here it's lowest, as LF said. We have no formula to weight these two, we just do it instinctively. So the question is less "is it overrated" and more "is it overappreciated"

It's similar with herbalist/beggar. I have beggar higher, not because I buy him a lot, but because he's so good sometimes. Might be a little bit underrated too.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:16:25 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 12:24:13 pm »
+1

Oooooh, some big mistakes here.

Poor House, I doubt Poor House is even that good. It's occasionally quite powerful, but more often than not it's just messing up your Upgrading/Remaking/etc.

In no universe is Haven better than Vagrant. Haven is meh and Vagrant is awesome.

I would put Vagrant at the top of this list, followed by Embargo, Moat, and Beggar. Then Cellar, Poor House, Duchess, Herbalist, Pearl Diver, Secret Chamber.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2014, 12:27:36 pm »
0

Oh cool its getting started.
Quote
Herbalist:
mostly forgotten - it's one of three $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option).
Are you refering to hamlet and Pawn?
I think you forgot Candlestickmaker and Squire?

True. Old text, copy and pasted, forgot about it. I'll change it.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2014, 01:00:08 pm »
0

I'm glad to see Moat is moving up. It's no longer "criminally underrated", it's just "really underrated". IMO, it's better than all the other cards on this list other than Embargo and maybe Cellar, even in 2-player. Yes attack-blocking is situational, but so are the effects of all the other cards on this list. You can't tell me that Haven or Poor House is impactful more often than Moat.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2014, 01:12:37 pm »
0

Agreed. Moat should be higher. Also, Poor House is too high. Only a few boards is it worth getting. Although, it does have its moments. I guess that is why it is ranked fairly decent.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2014, 02:43:27 pm »
0

So yeah, I don't think I'd notice if Pearl Diver disappeared. I don't think I can say that about any other card, except maybe Feast.
But Feast actually does disappear when you play it.

EDIT: And yeah, Moat should be higher. It's not very good, but still it shouldn't be next to Beggar.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 02:59:57 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2014, 03:03:09 pm »
0

I'll pile on about Moat, it's still very underrated.  I had it at #11 actually, so not even on this section of the list, and maybe that's a bit high.  But it's a card I've come to appreciate in a whole new way, mostly because I've discovered that terminal +2 Cards is much better than I used to think it was.  More than any other source, I have to thank WanderingWinder's videos for teaching me that.  I think the first winning engine I ever saw that used only Moats for draw was in one of his videos.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2014, 03:18:09 pm »
+4

Very Happy to see the $+ cards ratings starting to be revealed!

Overall I'm fairly comfortable with these initial ratings.  My bottom 3 match exactly, but others switched around a little.  I'm happy to see Cellar move up a little, as I always find it valuable in keeping engines running mid-to-late game after you start greening.  I had Moat rated just slightly higher, and agree that it is often underrated, as it can sometimes have high impact in big attack games.

What I noticed when doing the ratings was that my impressions of the cards were unavoidably influenced by how those cards had performed in the last 3-5 games I had played with them.  I tried my best to think long term, but when a decent card just really fails in several recent situations it is hard to forget that (Poor House has really taken a huge dive in my recent experience, and probably deservedly so).  And just the opposite, a fairly weak card like Beggar just really shined in several of my recent games for both the reaction and the extra buy power late in the game, so I may have spotted it a couple ranks higher than it maybe deserves.  And I rated Herbalist a little higher...that +Buy has just been very useful many times - along with "scheming" of a Gold or early Silver.

Looking forward to seeing the rest!! (and seeing where the first of the Guilds cards ranks)  I'm enjoying reading everyone else's thoughts also.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 03:31:56 pm by 7string »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2014, 03:51:35 pm »
0

This list is very close to my list so far. I just have Pearl Diver swapped with Herbalist, Moat swapped with Vagrant, and Embargo above Cellar and Haven.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 03:52:53 pm by markusin »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2014, 04:45:48 pm »
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Bottom 4 match completely with mine, the rest not so much. I think Cellar is too high and Pawn as well (in that it hasn't appeared yet). I ranked Poor House and Beggar much higher, but I guess that's the consistency vs power thing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2014, 06:08:31 pm »
+1

I think Secret Chambers is better than Pearl Diver. Pearl Diver is just irrelevant most of the time. Secret Chamber at least can do some nice tricks with Fools Gold or Treasure Map (provided an attack) and the percentage of relevant attacks it effectively defends against has increased with Dark Ages as well as Guilds. Also it likes Silk Roads and Tunnels.

It's a weak card and outclassed by Poor House, but at least it does something.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2014, 06:25:21 pm »
+2

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2014, 06:33:54 pm »
+2

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

maybe lighthouse?  :o

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2014, 06:36:55 pm »
+2

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

Embargo is a really interesting case for card-ranking questions like this. If the presence of Embargo on a board has a substantial effect on what the best strategy is (e.g., avoiding Potions), but at no point would it actually be a good move for you to gain an Embargo (e.g., because your opponent is also avoiding Potions), should that contribute to our judgment of Embargo as a "good card"?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2014, 07:58:19 pm »
0

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

Embargo is a really interesting case for card-ranking questions like this. If the presence of Embargo on a board has a substantial effect on what the best strategy is (e.g., avoiding Potions), but at no point would it actually be a good move for you to gain an Embargo (e.g., because your opponent is also avoiding Potions), should that contribute to our judgment of Embargo as a "good card"?

Yes. At least it did for me. "Influence" on how you play a kingdom matters, even if you never buy the card. Pirate Ship would be another example.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2014, 08:35:53 pm »
0

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

Embargo is a really interesting case for card-ranking questions like this. If the presence of Embargo on a board has a substantial effect on what the best strategy is (e.g., avoiding Potions), but at no point would it actually be a good move for you to gain an Embargo (e.g., because your opponent is also avoiding Potions), should that contribute to our judgment of Embargo as a "good card"?

I took the control aspect in to account, but even with it I rank Embargo in the bottom 11.  It's not because I think Embargo is bad; I just think the cards over it are better even with Embargo's general strengths taken in to account.  A lot of the time the joke is actually on the Embargo player--he makes an assumption like "this guy won't possibly buy Minions if I Embargo them" or "this guy totally can't win without Golds," then the person gets one anyway and has a Curse.  It matters, but not always enough.  I love Embargo, but cards like Pawn, Squire, Hamlet, etc are often cornerstones of decks with little psychological element involved.  For that matter, I think it's also important to realize that EVERY card in the kingdom should change the way one approaches things.  Embargo just makes it more obvious than most.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2014, 09:49:18 pm »
+2

For that matter, I think it's also important to realize that EVERY card in the kingdom should change the way one approaches things.
Yeah. Sometimes the only change it makes is that you are now approaching a 9-card kingdom.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2014, 10:59:22 pm »
+3

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 12:11:47 am »
0

I'm most curious to see where Stonemason gets ranked. I put it very high. It can be a super powerful cards in some kingdoms.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2014, 12:17:19 am »
0

I'm most curious to see where Stonemason gets ranked. I put it very high. It can be a super powerful cards in some kingdoms.
Me too, I had it as the #1 $2 card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2014, 12:26:45 am »
0

I ranked Stonemason #7.  It's certainly a great card, but I feel like often it isn't 'good' so much as it makes games end really quickly.  Can be a double edged sword too.  That said, depending on how one is interpreting ratings, I can certainly see it being in the top 3.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2014, 12:52:42 am »
0

I'm most curious to see where Stonemason gets ranked. I put it very high. It can be a super powerful cards in some kingdoms.
Me too, I had it as the #1 $2 card.

I ranked it #2. I don't think it is better than Chapel. But, you can do some amazing pile stuff with that card.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2014, 01:56:05 am »
0

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".

Pawn is IMO the fourth best (potential) non-terminal +buy of the $2 cards, WAY after hamlet and candlestick maker, and after squire (yes it can't be +buy and non-terminal, but bleh).  +Buy isn't as rare as it was in intrigue.  +1 action / +1 buy is weak.  If that's the best use of a card, count me out.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2014, 02:36:00 am »
+1

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".

Pawn is IMO the fourth best (potential) non-terminal +buy of the $2 cards, WAY after hamlet and candlestick maker, and after squire (yes it can't be +buy and non-terminal, but bleh).  +Buy isn't as rare as it was in intrigue.  +1 action / +1 buy is weak.  If that's the best use of a card, count me out.
I agree that it's the fourth best (Squire is better than CM, though), but it's not at all weak.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2014, 08:55:54 am »
0

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".

Pawn is IMO the fourth best (potential) non-terminal +buy of the $2 cards, WAY after hamlet and candlestick maker, and after squire (yes it can't be +buy and non-terminal, but bleh).  +Buy isn't as rare as it was in intrigue.  +1 action / +1 buy is weak.  If that's the best use of a card, count me out.
But it does other things. Don't forget about the +1 card/+1coin option. That one is pretty good when it works out. And it can turn that +action into coin or draw if you want the buy and don't need the extra action.

It's just a nice card all around.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2014, 09:24:05 am »
+1

i'm really surprised by vagrant being so low.  It's pretty boring, but it's very nice in lots of decks, most notably vineyards and dual type victory cards, and slogs in general.  I'd say it helps way more often than haven. 

I think haven has taken a real hit with coin tokens, which make the money smoothing haven offers more readily available.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2014, 09:50:40 am »
0

I see Haven as being a sort of trap card. If you get too many, you end up transferring cards from one hand into another hand full of Havens. It's a mini-mini Tactician.

Sure, you can argue that you can transfer excess villages to your next hand after you've drawn your deck, but how often are you going to draw your deck while still having extra villages? And are you really going to transfer a Village to your next hand instead of drawing with it on the current turn? Maybe, but it hurts a hand might have been awesome depending on what the village drew.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2014, 10:06:35 am »
+3

Haven isn't for money smoothing, it's for action smoothing.

As to markusin's objection that you rarely have an unplayed action to put back, I'd say that there are a number of scenarios where that isn't uncommon.

- Gainers may cause you to be flooded with Villages, if the terminal draw is at a price point > $4.
- Your deck may be really big, with a sizable amount of junk still left. In these cases you often want more engine pieces than the bare minimum needed to achieve your goal for each turn, just for consistency.
- Your deck composition may be rapidly changing in a way that leads you to have a little extra draw. Two examples: you finally acquire and play a Forge on a big hand, you use Altar to replace junk cards with Stables/Lab/Hunting Party/Whatever. In general, slower trashing can lead to this situation.
- Handsize attacks are a big case, it can be useful to overbuild draw in these cases to fight the attack and, even more importantly, deny draw resources to your opponent.

Anyway, Haven still isn't that great, but it can still be relevant on a decent number of boards.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2014, 10:07:50 am »
+2

The thing about Vagrant is that it is *conditionally* helpful in your deck.  When you hit that VP card or Curse it's awesome because it's a $2-Cost lab.  Sure you can combo it with cards like Apothecary and Mystic but it's not the kind of card you gain to build your deck around.  Things like Squire, Stonemason and Chapel are exceptionally good in the role they fill, which very often define the course of the game.  Vagrant on the other hand is marginally good at a role that doesn't significantly altar how you would choose to play a given kingdom.

I'm not saying that Vagrant is bad.  I myself think it's a very good card even though I ranked it similarly in my own list.  It's just that when you compare Vagrant directly to other cards it gets ranked worse because it doesn't have as defined a role and only does that role part of the time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2014, 11:51:51 am »
0

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

Embargo is definitely better than 14th.  It is one of the few 2's that actually effects the overall strategy of the game (along with Chapel, Fool's Gold and maaayyybee lighthouse).  Anyway, should be top 10.

maybe lighthouse?  :o

Lighthouse 100% effects the overall strategy if there is a strong attack on the board.  But not if there isn't one.  So it's conditional (although stronger) kind of like Embargo.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2014, 11:55:46 am »
0

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".

Pawn is IMO the fourth best (potential) non-terminal +buy of the $2 cards, WAY after hamlet and candlestick maker, and after squire (yes it can't be +buy and non-terminal, but bleh).  +Buy isn't as rare as it was in intrigue.  +1 action / +1 buy is weak.  If that's the best use of a card, count me out.
But it does other things. Don't forget about the +1 card/+1coin option. That one is pretty good when it works out. And it can turn that +action into coin or draw if you want the buy and don't need the extra action.

It's just a nice card all around.
+1 Card / +1 coin still isn't good.  I'd argue that effect is worse than Duchess or Moat's +2 bonus, and those are considered two of the worst $2's and they have other attractions (defense / free with duchy+spying).

So yes, I know it's flexible, but putting together a bunch of options that are all between awful and situationally weak, does not make a strong card.  Pawn is alright to pick up on exactly $2 if there aren't any other $2's, but that's about all it's got going for it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2014, 11:57:09 am »
0

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".

Pawn is IMO the fourth best (potential) non-terminal +buy of the $2 cards, WAY after hamlet and candlestick maker, and after squire (yes it can't be +buy and non-terminal, but bleh).  +Buy isn't as rare as it was in intrigue.  +1 action / +1 buy is weak.  If that's the best use of a card, count me out.
I agree that it's the fourth best (Squire is better than CM, though), but it's not at all weak.

Sorry for the triple post, but in terms of a nonterminal buy I think CM is better than squire, just because you need 2 squires to get the nonterminal buy.  Overall card strength, Squire may be better.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2014, 12:47:32 pm »
+5

You can't tell me that Haven or Poor House is impactful more often than Moat.

Poor House is impactful more often than Moat.

Since it screws up your Remakes
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2014, 12:57:09 pm »
0

Pawn not being in the bottom 10 is ridiculous.  It is really bad.  Really bad.

You're wrong about Pawn. Non-terminal +buy is good. Most engines need +buy, and many don't have a lot of terminal actions to spare. And the fact that you can just cycle it if you don't need the buy this turn makes it low risk, high reward. It's only borderline top 10, but it's definitely not "really bad".

Pawn is IMO the fourth best (potential) non-terminal +buy of the $2 cards, WAY after hamlet and candlestick maker, and after squire (yes it can't be +buy and non-terminal, but bleh).  +Buy isn't as rare as it was in intrigue.  +1 action / +1 buy is weak.  If that's the best use of a card, count me out.
But it does other things. Don't forget about the +1 card/+1coin option. That one is pretty good when it works out. And it can turn that +action into coin or draw if you want the buy and don't need the extra action.

It's just a nice card all around.
+1 Card / +1 coin still isn't good.  I'd argue that effect is worse than Duchess or Moat's +2 bonus, and those are considered two of the worst $2's and they have other attractions (defense / free with duchy+spying).

So yes, I know it's flexible, but putting together a bunch of options that are all between awful and situationally weak, does not make a strong card.  Pawn is alright to pick up on exactly $2 if there aren't any other $2's, but that's about all it's got going for it.
+1 card +1 coin is still Peddler if you have actions to spare. Worse that Moat that's equivalent to lab, but Pawn isless likely to draw stuff dead. And it can always be a cantrip.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2014, 10:05:42 am »
0

I see Haven as being a sort of trap card. If you get too many, you end up transferring cards from one hand into another hand full of Havens. It's a mini-mini Tactician.

Sure, you can argue that you can transfer excess villages to your next hand after you've drawn your deck, but how often are you going to draw your deck while still having extra villages? And are you really going to transfer a Village to your next hand instead of drawing with it on the current turn? Maybe, but it hurts a hand might have been awesome depending on what the village drew.

Given the choice to either draw 2 hands with 5 cards or one hand with 4 cards and then one hand with 6 cards, I would most likely do the latter.
And that's why I think, haven is good.
Second, it allows you to slightly overbuy action cards, since you could just pass a terminal to your next turn and see, if you can use it there.
I agree, that getting lots of havens won't get you anywhere fast. But I can hardly imagine a situation where I hit $2 and still don't want to buy at least one or two havens.

---

It's also great for trashing, so you can either "rescue" a good card and chapel the rest away or draw one more in a hand, where you want to chapel anyways (like passing a curse).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2014, 10:42:29 am »
0

I see Haven as being a sort of trap card. If you get too many, you end up transferring cards from one hand into another hand full of Havens. It's a mini-mini Tactician.

Sure, you can argue that you can transfer excess villages to your next hand after you've drawn your deck, but how often are you going to draw your deck while still having extra villages? And are you really going to transfer a Village to your next hand instead of drawing with it on the current turn? Maybe, but it hurts a hand might have been awesome depending on what the village drew.

Given the choice to either draw 2 hands with 5 cards or one hand with 4 cards and then one hand with 6 cards, I would most likely do the latter.
And that's why I think, haven is good.
Second, it allows you to slightly overbuy action cards, since you could just pass a terminal to your next turn and see, if you can use it there.
I agree, that getting lots of havens won't get you anywhere fast. But I can hardly imagine a situation where I hit $2 and still don't want to buy at least one or two havens.
A 4 and 6 card hand isn't that great, actually. If you really need a 6 cost card, then maybe. However, if you're looking to get lots of cards at the $4 or $5 price point, you might find yourself just passing an estate or something to your next hand.

How much does it really let you overterminal? You'll just be passing terminal action cards to another hand where they'll collide with terminals if you have too many. Haven is better for mitigating bad luck in an otherwise decent deck.

I've found Haven to be pretty effective when you're trying to spike high Provinces/Colonies or something in an environment that normally makes it difficult to do so (lots of attacks, for example). Then you're more willing to pass over cards like Gold.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2014, 02:37:29 pm »
+3

Reserved

Ahh...no new ratings revealed today  :(

You really know how to build suspense Qvist!  Oh...is that why its says "Torturer" next to your user name?...Chinese water torture the specialty?  drip....drip....drip....
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 02:38:53 pm by 7string »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2014, 03:24:24 am »
0

I'm shocked Secret Chamber is at the bottom.  I kind of feel any card that enables me to buy 3 Colonies in a single turn should at least be acknowledged to be situationally good (even if the situation is just one card).

Pearl Diver, on the other hand, is so amazingly bad.  I guess it kinda works with Peddler, maybe...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2014, 03:38:07 am »
+2

I'm shocked Secret Chamber is at the bottom.  I kind of feel any card that enables me to buy 3 Colonies in a single turn should at least be acknowledged to be situationally good (even if the situation is just one card).

Pearl Diver, on the other hand, is so amazingly bad.  I guess it kinda works with Peddler, maybe...
Pearl Diver is never bad. It's a cantrip with a bonus.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2014, 03:49:05 am »
0

Pearl Diver is never bad. It's a cantrip with a bonus.
Drawing action cards dead, not knowing what to discard to discard attacks, digging cards which should dig for other cards instead (like with Golem, Farming Village, Journeyman, maybe Hunting Party)*, and of course opportunity cost.

There are plenty of reasons why Pearl Diver is not "never bad". Pure cantrips or cantrips with an almost negligible bonus can certainly be bad for some decks, probably the easiest to see is for Terminal Draw Big Money.

*You rather want to draw a good card than a cantrip which draws only an average card
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2014, 03:50:26 am »
0

So you mean it messes up terminal draw actions and obscures what's actually in your hand when you're discarding, all for the wonderful benefit of... a completely negligible bonus? 

Woah.

(and yes, it's quite often extremely bad)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2014, 03:54:51 am »
0

Pearl Diver is never bad. It's a cantrip with a bonus.
Drawing action cards dead, not knowing what to discard to discard attacks, digging cards which should dig for other cards instead (like with Golem, Farming Village, Journeyman, maybe Hunting Party)*, and of course opportunity cost.

There are plenty of reasons why Pearl Diver is not "never bad". Pure cantrips or cantrips with an almost negligible bonus can certainly be bad for some decks, probably the easiest to see is for Terminal Draw Big Money.
Golem and Hunting Party might be reasons to skip Pearl Diver at $2, an opponent's Militia is not. The bonus is not as negligible as you think.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2014, 03:55:19 am »
0

I think cantrips are generally overrated. Their bonuses are just too small. Pearl Diver, Haven, Pawn and especially Hamlet are too high in this list IMO.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2014, 08:40:24 am »
0

I think cantrips are generally overrated. Their bonuses are just too small. Pearl Diver, Haven, Pawn and especially Hamlet are too high in this list IMO.
At least the opportunity cost of buying a 2 cost card for $2 is generally small.

Great Hall, on the other hand...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2014, 01:08:56 pm »
0

I'm shocked Secret Chamber is at the bottom.  I kind of feel any card that enables me to buy 3 Colonies in a single turn should at least be acknowledged to be situationally good (even if the situation is just one card).

Pearl Diver, on the other hand, is so amazingly bad.  I guess it kinda works with Peddler, maybe...

Secret Chamber isn't going to enable 3 colony turns almost ever. The occasional draw and discard engine can make use of it, if your drawing is exceptionally good, but those cases are extremely rare. Meanwhile Pearl Diver gives a generally small but useful ability and as a cantrip, it's often completely non-damaging.

Really this whole argument just comes down to how you evaluate the cards. Pearl Diver worth buying with $2 hands way more often than Secret Chamber is, but Secret Chamber has the potential to be a significant engine component, which Pearl Diver... doesn't.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2014, 01:58:46 pm »
0

Yes the secret chamber rating is strange. I would probably buy it more often then harvest, I get more coins from it than harvest, it costs much less than harvest, you have more control of the deck with secret chamber, plus you can have some fun with the reaction. Then again harvest isn't particularly good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2014, 02:04:00 pm »
0

I would probably buy it more often then harvest, I get more coins from it than harvest...

Oh really? Harvest typically gives on average a little more than $2 earlygame, and around $3 midgame. I find it hard to imagine Secret Chamber giving even that much except in the rare engine built around it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2014, 03:39:23 pm »
0

Yes. I don't consider secret chamber to be a 'rare' engine payload card since you can instantly convert a common engine characteristic, strong drawing, into +coins. If you're buying a secret chamber to discard single cards then you're probably playing it wrong.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2014, 04:46:26 pm »
0

Yes. I don't consider secret chamber to be a 'rare' engine payload card since you can instantly convert a common engine characteristic, strong drawing, into +coins. If you're buying a secret chamber to discard single cards then you're probably playing it wrong.

You must be building really crappy engines if you use SC as a payload card more than rarely, because unless you can redraw what you discard (which is only really viable with Scrying Pool, it might be ok sometimes with Library but meh, certainly not Watchtower), which is possible only rarely, you're effectively converting the cards you draw into Coppers, which is pretty awful even for a weak engine.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2014, 05:05:10 pm »
0

Yes. I don't consider secret chamber to be a 'rare' engine payload card since you can instantly convert a common engine characteristic, strong drawing, into +coins. If you're buying a secret chamber to discard single cards then you're probably playing it wrong.

You must be building really crappy engines if you use SC as a payload card more than rarely, because unless you can redraw what you discard (which is only really viable with Scrying Pool, it might be ok sometimes with Library but meh, certainly not Watchtower), which is possible only rarely, you're effectively converting the cards you draw into Coppers, which is pretty awful even for a weak engine.

If you draw your entire deck, then you could discard all but one Cultist.  I really don't see how one would find themself in that predicament, though.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2014, 05:09:01 pm »
0

Yes the secret chamber rating is strange. I would probably buy it more often then harvest, I get more coins from it than harvest, it costs much less than harvest, you have more control of the deck with secret chamber, plus you can have some fun with the reaction. Then again harvest isn't particularly good.
Harvest isn't in the $1-$2 card list.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2014, 06:01:58 pm »
0

Quote
You must be building really crappy engines if you use SC as a payload card

Why use anything else if secret chamber is the single highest coin producing card for you in the kingdom?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2014, 07:12:09 pm »
0

Quote
You must be building really crappy engines if you use SC as a payload card

Why use anything else if secret chamber is the single highest coin producing card for you in the kingdom?

Because Adventurer is stronger still.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2014, 08:25:16 pm »
0

Am I right in thinking that vault, storeroom, and secret chamber are the highest potential income actions in Dominion?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2014, 08:26:09 pm »
+4

Is Secret Chamber bad because Adventurer exists???  :o
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2014, 08:45:24 pm »
+1

Am I right in thinking that vault, storeroom, and secret chamber are the highest potential income actions in Dominion?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4374.0

Theoretically, Pirate Ship can surpass them.  Also, Band of Misfits can act as Pirate Ship, Storeroom, or Secret Chamber.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2014, 10:08:24 pm »
0

Am I right in thinking that vault, storeroom, and secret chamber are the highest potential income actions in Dominion?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4374.0

Theoretically, Pirate Ship can surpass them.  Also, Band of Misfits can act as Pirate Ship, Storeroom, or Secret Chamber.
And Pirate Ship can also be KC'ed to give you the coins on all 3 plays.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2014, 11:26:15 pm »
0

Merchant Guild is pretty good for getting a huge income, but by the time you could set it up the game's often over.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2014, 11:31:01 pm »
0

Merchant Guild is pretty good for getting a huge income, but by the time you could set it up the game's often over.

Merchant Guild and Pirate Ship (and therefore Band of Misfits) can both give unbounded income*, are there any others?

*edit: that is, only bounded by how many turns the player racking up the coins can take until they starve to death and take the loss, which I think was the official ruling from Donald X on hypothetical stalemate/unending-game situations
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 01:49:31 am by michaeljb »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2014, 12:58:59 am »
0

Merchant Guild and Pirate Ship (and therefore Band of Misfits) can both give unbounded income*, are there any others?

*edit: that is, only bounded by how many turns the player racking up the coins can take until they starve to death and take the loss, which I think was the official ruling from Donald X on hypothetical stalemate situations
How can a Merchant Guild give unbounded income? You can only have a bounded number of buys every turn (if I must guess around 400-500, let's be generous and say 1000), so you can at most get 1000 coin tokens per Merchant Guild per turn. If you mean you can stockpile coin tokens, then Candlestick Maker can also give unbounded income.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2014, 01:46:10 am »
0

Yeah, I mean stockpiling. I guess that means all the coin token cards qualify.

The same thing applies to Pirate Ship; you have a bounded number of times you can play it each turn (unless there's some insane infinite loop possibility with King's Court, Procession, Graverobber, and Ambassador--what's Celestial Chamelon up to?), so to be able to have "infinite" income you need infinite turns.

The biggest difference is that spending MG's (and other coin token cards) infinite money is gone as soon as you spend it, while Pirate Ship's gets to stay.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 01:49:57 am by michaeljb »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2014, 03:13:06 am »
0

The same thing applies to Pirate Ship; you have a bounded number of times you can play it each turn (unless there's some insane infinite loop possibility with King's Court, Procession, Graverobber, and Ambassador--what's Celestial Chamelon up to?), so to be able to have "infinite" income you need infinite turns.
No, the same does not apply to Pirate Ship. Originally you said it could give "unbounded income", which is something different than "infinite income". Pirate ship can give unbounded income (per play), but it cannot give infinite income (per play).

PS: 1000 buys might actually be achievable...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2014, 03:56:04 am »
+1

First, some math I did trying to work figure out our confusion. I'm not sure if it helps or is still worth posting so feel free to skip this part.

[math]
Let X be the maximum number of times you can play Pirate Ship in a turn. On your Nth turn, you could play a single Pirate Ship, choosing +Y coins. The maximum value for Y is X*N - 1; every time you played pirate ship, you took a coin token except for the time you chose to play it for +Y coins, which would be the last possible time you could play Pirate Ship on your Nth turn.

Let B be the maximum number of buys you can make on a turn (in a deck where you can reliably play all 10 Merchant Guilds). You've spent N-1 turns stockpiling Coin tokens from Merchant Guild, and you're going to use all of them on your Nth turn.  The maximum number of coins you can choose to spend on your Nth turn is B*10*(N - 1); on every turn before, you've had 10 Merchant Guilds in play and used all your buys (thanks to Trader and an empty Silver pile).

pirate ship max: X*N -1
merchant guild max: (N-1)*10*B

These maxes are of course still too high--when you're on the way to setting up perfect turns with max buys or max plays of pirate ship, you'll be taking far fewer coin tokens--but they're much easier upper bounds to calculate than the actual maxes.
[/math]

I think I figured out the confusion/miscommunication...

I didn't say "infinite" originally because that would require infinite turns or some crazy loop allowing you to Pirate Ship infinite times in one turn. "Unbounded" probably wasn't the right term either, since it is actually bounded by the number of turns taken before choosing to spend the coins.

It looks like maybe you were thinking of income from a single play of a card, while I was thinking of income from a card, allowing for the influence of previous turns (which I guess you pointed out when you brought up Candlestick Maker).

It seemed to me like you were pointing out that the growth of Merchant Guild's potential income was limited (which clearly does apply to Pirate Ship), not that you were saying a single Merchant Guild play could only get you so far (i.e., B is the important number, rather than (N-1)*10*B).

The post that started this discussion didn't strictly define "highest potential income actions", and I think we just took different angles at:

Am I right in thinking that vault, storeroom, and secret chamber are the highest potential income actions in Dominion?

Sorry for misunderstanding, and hopefully this long post didn't make it worse :)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 04:03:09 am by michaeljb »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2014, 01:15:05 pm »
0

Yes the secret chamber rating is strange. I would probably buy it more often then harvest, I get more coins from it than harvest, it costs much less than harvest, you have more control of the deck with secret chamber, plus you can have some fun with the reaction. Then again harvest isn't particularly good.

Secret Chamber would only generate more money, if you can discard a lot of crappy cards. So how can you get more than 3-4 crappy cards like estates, curses or ruins together with a secret chamber? The thing is: Any money card gives you at least as much dollars if you don't discard it. Harvest discards neither of those, so you actually add up to $4 to what you already have got in your hand. Secret chamber adds only $1 for each non-money-card in your hand.
If there is a way to reliably hold a secret chamber and more than 4 other cards, then secret chamber was actually good. Except for very rare cases (Tactician, for example), there is no such possibility (Vagrant --> sounds like a nombo).

For the reaction part, I think it is better than given credit for. Obviously it counter any top-deck-attacks like Swindler, Thief or Jester. But it also slightly counters hand sice reducers. Being militiad with a secret chamber allows me to chose 3 cards out of 7, effectively. Of course, one of those is secret chamber itself, but the attack really doesn't hurt as much. If your two top-deck-cards a relatively weak, the attacks let's you sift them.
As far as cursers are concerned, it really only helps against Sea Hag (let's you skip one bad card). Against Mountebank, at least, it raises chances to hit a curse and replace it, so that you don't get junked too fast. Still, not very smart as a defense.

I still don't think, it is a good card, but better than duchess, for sure.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 01:16:44 pm by c4master »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2014, 11:58:24 pm »
0

@michaeljb: You're right, we took different angles at it. I was indeed using "income" as "max number of coin (tokens) per play."
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2014, 07:01:21 am »
0

Secret Chamber would only generate more money, if you can discard a lot of crappy cards. So how can you get more than 3-4 crappy cards like estates, curses or ruins together with a secret chamber? The thing is: Any money card gives you at least as much dollars if you don't discard it.
Playing a money card means you get no further use out of it this turn (except Black Market/Mandarin shenanigans). Discarding it to Secret Chamber means you can still redraw it and play later. Secret Chamber can be really good in an engine that draws whole deck with ease and can do it again after you discard most of your hand for cash. And it sometimes can help this engine (activating Menagerie for example).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2014, 08:09:53 am »
+1

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2014, 08:12:33 am »
+2

Stonemason is criminally underrated on this list.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2014, 09:18:58 am »
0

yea stonemason is definitely underrated. i don't think its #1 or anything, but it needs to be at least 3 ranks higher
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:52:46 am by silverspawn »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2014, 09:48:11 am »
0

yea stonemaison is definitely underrated. i don't think its #1 or anything
I do.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2014, 09:50:33 am »
0

yea stonemason is definitely underrated. i don't think its #1 or anything
I do.

I know
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 09:52:24 am by silverspawn »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #76 on: March 10, 2014, 09:57:21 am »
0

Courtyard used to be criminally underrated for the longest time, but the decline of the usefulness of big money really hurts it. It's not nearly the engine card some of these other two costs are, and less important in money games than fool's gold, so I'd rank it a good bit lower. Stonemason should be higher, and I know the competition is steep, but lighthouse is like very good.

I never realized just how worse pawn is in comparison now that CM and squire are out until now.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #77 on: March 10, 2014, 11:19:29 am »
0

Hmm, Chapel was rated four times below 50%. Interesting.

Fool's Gold in 2nd kind of surprised me. I always thought it was powerful, and it's slowly made it's way up the $2 ratings, but 2nd kind of feels too high to me now. Then again I haven't been playing as much Dominion over the last year, so Dark Ages and Guilds I've played way less than other expansions, and they might have changed things a lot (in particular I've been hearing that good engines are possible far more often nowadays).

I'm also going to agree Stonemason is probably underrated. I didn't submit a list this year, but if I had Stonemason would almost certainly have been top 4, possibly even 2nd or 3rd.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #78 on: March 10, 2014, 11:55:20 am »
0

Yeah, Courtyard looks like an overrate to me now, since it usually isn't your favorite card for a draw engine. I think Candlestick Maker is slightly overrated. I think I would put Stonemason and Crossroads better than it.

Squire... I still say Squire is better than Hamlet, though it's close.

Absolutely agree with Chapel and Fools Gold for 1 and 2.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #79 on: March 10, 2014, 12:05:24 pm »
0

My top 3 is Chapel, Candlestick Maker, Stonemason. Courtyard is not even in my top 10.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2014, 02:42:18 pm »
+3

I've put Stonemason at around the rank where it ended. Stonemason's on play effect is rather weak, it's terrible in Big Money games and even in engine games I don't overpay that often because I don't want so many Stonemasons in my deck. This doesn't sound like a #1 or even a Top 3 card to me. Tell me where I'm wrong.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2014, 03:14:54 pm »
+11

I've put Stonemason at around the rank where it ended. Stonemason's on play effect is rather weak, it's terrible in Big Money games and even in engine games I don't overpay that often because I don't want so many Stonemasons in my deck. This doesn't sound like a #1 or even a Top 3 card to me. Tell me where I'm wrong.

Let me do my best SCSN impression: Big Money games don't really matter, unfortunately. They are a vanishingly smaller percent of the total. And you're wrong about SM in engines. You don't want that many SMs, but you want double the high-cost cards more than you don't want SM. Also, SM--more than virtually any other card--ends the game when you want to end it. It's mere presence has a huge, huge impact on the strategic landscape.
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SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2014, 05:38:55 pm »
0

I've put Stonemason at around the rank where it ended. Stonemason's on play effect is rather weak, it's terrible in Big Money games and even in engine games I don't overpay that often because I don't want so many Stonemasons in my deck. This doesn't sound like a #1 or even a Top 3 card to me. Tell me where I'm wrong.

Let me do my best SCSN impression: Big Money games don't really matter, unfortunately. They are a vanishingly smaller percent of the total. And you're wrong about SM in engines. You don't want that many SMs, but you want double the high-cost cards more than you don't want SM. Also, SM--more than virtually any other card--ends the game when you want to end it. It's mere presence has a huge, huge impact on the strategic landscape.

The reply I had begun to compose but then set aside in the naive hope that it would grow on its own started as follows:

When I see a big money board my usual response is to fall asleep and play instead in my dreams the now shimmering engine (replete with imagined cards from future expansions) wherein Stonemason displays his usual awesomeness...

Your post neatly captures the gist of the ellipsis!

Next challenge: try another impersonation, this time while clicking on cards, and post the results over here ;)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2014, 05:42:57 pm »
+1

Let me do my best SCSN impression: Big Money games don't really matter, unfortunately. They are a vanishingly smaller percent of the total. And you're wrong about SM in engines. You don't want that many SMs, but you want double the high-cost cards more than you don't want SM. Also, SM--more than virtually any other card--ends the game when you want to end it. It's mere presence has a huge, huge impact on the strategic landscape.

Ooh! Ooh! Do me next!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2014, 06:27:20 pm »
+1

When I see a big money board my usual response is to fall asleep and play instead in my dreams the now shimmering engine (replete with imagined cards from future expansions) wherein Stonemason displays his usual awesomeness...
Interesting. I see SM not really as an engine enabler, more as something which powers up every engine. If there is no way to get +actions or +cards, then a SM doesn't really make an engine much more viable. Sure, there are enough engines which work without draw or without actions, and those can be a little stronger with SM. But I see SM more as turning a weak engine into a strong one.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2014, 07:30:13 pm »
+1

Great to see the rest of the $2 card rankings published!!  Thanks Qvist!  I had Chapel, Hamlet, and Pawn in the same spots, but my other ranks were a little inverted...overall pretty pleased with the rankings.

My biggest surprise was seeing Hamlet slip to 4th.  I still had it at #2.  Certainly Fools Gold can sometimes be very powerful, but as Qvist says, you really need to play a pretty dedicated FG game and forego buying other valuable cards.  There seems to me too many games where this does not work well, whereas I almost always find Hamlet useful for either the +2 actions, the extra buy, or even just the discard ability (Tunnel etc.).  Hamlet just seems to me to be a far more versatile card than Fools Gold.  Same applies to Stonemason - I rated it a couple places higher at #6, but my perception of its weakness in mid-game makes me pause on rating it in the top 3-5 cards...  But Stonemason is still relatively new to me, and it took me a few games before I fully realized the power it has, so perhaps with more play...

Glad to see Candlestick Maker rated fairly high!  One of my very favorite $2 cards, but I feared I was being overly influenced by how much I enjoy playing it when I ranked it #8...turns out lot of others like it as much or more...

But what I love most about this whole exercise is that the lists and the comments from the more experienced players really make me think and reconsider how I use the cards!  When a card gets a higher rank than I expect, I will be more likely to buy more of them and try it out in future games.

Great comments everyone!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2014, 07:35:33 pm »
0

Certainly Fools Gold can sometimes be very powerful, but as Qvist says, you really need to play a pretty dedicated FG game and forego buying other valuable cards.

I don't think he's saying this, and it certainly isn't true. You can definitely build an engine and then pick up a few FG to be a payload. Indeed, in terms of straight cash production, it's probably the BEST payload, though of course there are many other cards that do more than cash production.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2014, 08:47:38 pm »
0

Certainly Fools Gold can sometimes be very powerful, but as Qvist says, you really need to play a pretty dedicated FG game and forego buying other valuable cards.

I don't think he's saying this, and it certainly isn't true. You can definitely build an engine and then pick up a few FG to be a payload. Indeed, in terms of straight cash production, it's probably the BEST payload, though of course there are many other cards that do more than cash production.

OK - thanks WW.  I may have interpreted more into what he said than he meant.  In my experience if I didn't buy at least 3 or 4 FG's, early on they rarely ended up in the same play together...but I hear what you say that it also works well later in the game after building an engine.  One more card I may have underutilized... ; )
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #88 on: March 11, 2014, 12:09:32 am »
+3

Secret Chamber has the potential to be a significant engine component, which Pearl Diver... doesn't.

False!  TR/KC engine where Pearl Diver is the only non-terminal on the board.  Yeah you could skip it and just TR-TR or KC-KC, but Pearl Diver would be easier overall.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2014, 01:01:39 am »
0

PD can be important in Conspirator engines, too, though Conspirator engines without other cards to support them aren't usually very good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #90 on: March 11, 2014, 01:18:48 am »
0

I am sad to see Stonemason ranked so low. I had it at 2. It seems a lot of high ranked players, ranked it pretty high as well. SM isn't just great because of engines, it also has the whole three-pile thing going for it. Also, SM is crazy good in Governor games (if you get lucky). A couple of times, I spiked $7 getting two Governors and then trashed a gold with that SM for two more Governors. Governor is already fast and SM just makes that card faster.

FG is strong. You often can't ignore it. Even with engine boards, it's usually worth picking some up at some point. I don't buy Courtyard that often these days. It's still useful, but cards like Squire and lighthouse and even CM seem better than Courtyard. Anyway, I think I ranked Fg 3, but I honestly can't remember.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #91 on: March 11, 2014, 02:58:10 am »
0

I thought I was kind of going out on a limb by ranking Fool's Gold #2 and I feel so vindicated right now, it's great.  The feeling, I mean.  FG is great too.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2014, 08:34:53 am »
0

Squire: Strictly Better™ than Herbalist since 2013
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Mr Anderson

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2014, 09:18:20 am »
0

Squire: Strictly Better™ than Herbalist since 2013

No, Squire would be if it could scheme treasures. Herbalist-Philosopher's Stone should still be better than Squire-Philosopher's Stone.
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AdamH

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2014, 09:19:49 am »
0

I know that, I was being sarcastic, hence the ™. I'm just making a snarky comment to get +1s.

I'm saving my Count/Mandarin joke for the $5 cards list. :P
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2014, 09:28:16 am »
+9

I know that, I was being sarcastic, hence the ™. I'm just making a snarky comment to get +1s.

I'm saving my Count/Mandarin joke for the $5 cards list. :P

Don't +1 this, guys. I just checked with the USPTO and he doesn't even hold a trademark on "Strictly Better"!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2014, 09:32:57 am »
+2

I know that, I was being sarcastic, hence the ™. I'm just making a snarky comment to get +1s.

I'm saving my Count/Mandarin joke for the $5 cards list. :P
Mandarin: Strictly Better™ than Count since 2011

Ha! I stole it!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #97 on: March 13, 2014, 09:44:04 am »
+3

You people. Now you're going to get more +1s than me. This is stupid.
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MarkowKette

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #98 on: March 16, 2014, 10:36:51 am »
0

I think stonemasons ranking should be one or two ranks higher but i would certainly not put it into top 3.
Stone mason is a very skill-dependant card mainly because of sneaky three pilings. In some engines it is even be a must buy.
Just the threat to be potentially able to three pile very fast can make it such.
Yes, loading up on stonemasons for additional labs does'nt really increase your deck drawability and you can see similar effects with other 5 costs but it's quite often paired with another trasher in your engine so you can get rid of superfluos ones.

I think pawn is a bit overrated as there are now a lot of other $2 cards that do similar things but better. When i buy a pawn i use it a a plain cantrip at least 75% of the time.

The most underrated card in this list in my eyes is candlestickmaker. That might seem weird as it is very similar to pawn, a lot higher already in this list and i said pawn was one of the most overrated cards in this list. But being able to use 3 of pawns options at a time is a huge difference and even if you can't chose anymore and you get the same 3 every play the coin being a token totally makes up for that. Shifting coins to future turns makes such a big difference. This card is even viable in Big Money decks like BM-Library or other BM strats that are not terminal draw dependant. It's very often a must buy in engines and if it's not then it still is nice for most of the decks. On my personal list it is ranked #2. (after chapel ofc :) )

Last but not least i dont think haven should be higher than cellar.Yes, cellar is a bit more situational as it hurts your deck a bit more often than haven does but in those cases where you want them cellar has the bigger impact as sifting can be very important in engines.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #99 on: March 16, 2014, 06:55:53 pm »
+1

When i buy a pawn i use it a a plain cantrip at least 75% of the time.

I think you're using it wrong. It can help many engines, and it's a cheap, non-terminal source of +buy. The cantrip part is just a fail-safe so it doesn't take up space if needed.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #100 on: March 16, 2014, 11:28:37 pm »
+4

When i buy a pawn i use it a a plain cantrip at least 75% of the time.

I think you're using it wrong. It can help many engines, and it's a cheap, non-terminal source of +buy. The cantrip part is just a fail-safe so it doesn't take up space if needed.

Even if you use it as cantrip most of the times you play it, you're not using it as pure cantrip most of the games you play it.
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7string

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2014, 03:25:29 am »
+1

Reflections and lessons learned from new 2014 rankings…$1-$2 cards

I have been busy, but watching the rollout of the card rankings and comments when I have time.  Had a little more time the last couple days to think about what it all means to me so thought I would post some of my reflections and lessons learned from the new rankings.  I’ll start with the $2 cards, and work my way through the lists until I catch up with the $5 card ratings that are currently being rolled out.  As I am a relatively newer player, I was really looking for opportunities to learn and improve my own play.

It took me a little time to figure out how to consider all the rankings and comments.  I finally decided to approach it like this:

1)  First I made a spreadsheet and my rankings of the cards in order.

2)  Next I entered the new consensus ranking next to it which allowed me to see how different my individual rankings were.

3)  At this point I paused to consider what I was looking for.  What I really wanted to see were cards for which my own ranking differed significantly from the consensus ranking.  I rather arbitrarily decided to highlight cards for which my ranking deviated by more than 10% of the total number of cards for the cost.  Seemed like a good starting point.  So for the $2 cards where there was a total of 22 cards, I just wanted to focus on cards where my rank was 3 or more different.  I might still not agree with the consensus, but at least it would give me a few cards to focus on.

4)  So using that, I highlighted cards which I either significantly overrated or significantly underrated.  I also assume that I will probably have more to learn by focusing on cards which I underrate, although I might be buying too many of cards I overrate, so worth noting those as well.

5)  Finally, I looked over the shorter list of overrated and underrated cards, and tried to identify and cards which I felt I was was underutilizing.  To me it seems like my biggest opportunity will probably be to find cards which I both underrate and underutilize.

So here is my short lessons learned on the $2 cards:

Overall I was pretty close on most of the cards.  Fully a third of my rankings exactly matched the consensus.

My most overrated $2 card was Beggar.  Not that I rated it highly (only 4 higher), but there have just been a few times when the ability to function as a late gold or the reaction to gain silvers in response to an attack was helpful.  Not a big lesson learned.

Squire, Embargo, and Poor House all tied for my most underrated cards.  I do use Squire frequently, but not so much with Embargo and Poor House, so perhaps something to be learned about using them more often.

My biggest lesson learned was definitely Fools Gold.  I underrated it by several spots, and I think it is my most underutilized card of the top cards.  I did not expect it to be #2, as I still had Hamlet in that spot.  I will definitely keep my eyes open to the payload potential of Fools Gold.

Where I still differ:  I still think Hamlet is useful in a lot more situations than Courtyard or Fools Gold…but…at least you all have me keeping my mind open. ; )

Thanks again to Qvist for coordinating this, and to all the great input in the comments from the more experienced players.
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c4master

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #102 on: April 23, 2014, 02:55:06 am »
0

Well, that's a tough call.

Fool's Gold is one these cards you shouldn't let your opponent get all of (like Minion). Once I've picked up 8-10 Fool's Golds I can buy Provinces each turn, maybe even more than one, and pretty consistently, for sure. Since FG is very cheap, you can pickup multiple FGs if you have a +buy or a gainer. You should be able to pick up all the FGs in 7 or 8 turns.

I recentyl won a game due to buying courtyards (in a big money matchup). I had one Taxman, three Courtyards and two Torturers. I was able to play my Taxman early in the game and later on play either Courtyard or Torturer each turn because I can put back the Torturer. My oppenent didn't buy more than one Courtyard and thus had no chance of winning the game - too often I was able to draw where he wasn't.
Often in such BM-games you would draw an action dead anyway or at least you have more than $8 in your hand. Both situations are great for Courtyard.
Of course, Courtyard is even better in an enginge, where you can put back a village for your next turn (like scheming one).
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #103 on: April 23, 2014, 06:56:53 pm »
+3

Of course, Courtyard is even better in an enginge, where you can put back a village for your next turn (like scheming one).

I think Courtyard is better for money decks than for engine decks. The big thing is that it only increases your hand size by 1, so it doesn't really draw enough for an engine. Having one to use like a Haven is okay, but you have to have a spare action to do that, which isn't always the best use of your actions. And if actions aren't in short supply, you probably don't need to put a village back anyway.

Courtyard, Vault, and Embassy are the main terminal draw big money cards, since they don't increase hand size enough to be key engine pieces, but they provide enough auxiliary benefit to accelerate the money strategy.
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c4master

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #104 on: April 24, 2014, 05:09:49 am »
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Ok, you're right. Courtyard is better in BM.

What I meant to say was: An Engine, that uses (a few) Courtyards is probably even better than CY-BM.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $1-$2 cards
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2014, 01:26:00 pm »
+1

Ok, you're right. Courtyard is better in BM.

What I meant to say was: An Engine, that uses (a few) Courtyards is probably even better than CY-BM.

Sooo, engines are better than BM?
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