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[Robz888]

I am being slow-played RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT, as I live and breathe.

His Goko name is barry.

First he accused me of cheating, because I was making pretty good Wishing Well guesses. (I have two cards left in my deck, 2 of them are Copper, I guess Copper, and I am right... obviously I am cheating!)

I kindly explained to him how I was able to make pretty good (though well short of perfect) WW guesses. Well, now he is slow-playing me. Like, really really badly. Usually, people just give it up after like 2-3 turns of this, but he is absolutely committed to it.

I am loathe to give in to the Goko terrorists, so I guess I am going to play it out like this. I am so mad though.

[Robz888]

3 Provinces left. I have stopped playing my Margrave. I don't need to, and it sucks up so much time.

[Robz888]

Again, this person's name is barry. Avoid at all costs.

[Robz888]

1 Province left to go... I think I can hold out.

Update: No! Confound it all!!! I previously thought he didn't realize he could slow-play after every single Action, since he would just slow-play once per his turn. Nope, now he gets it. Ugh....

[Robz888]

Victory! Victory for the forces of good!!!

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131116/log.5136e2dee4b07cef820a1126.1384656533039.txt

[2.71828.....]

[Kirian]

There are very, very few things for which I think public shaming is useful.

Being slow-rolled for 45 minutes is one of those few things.

[serakfalcon]

Next time rick-roll him in the chat bar. Seriously, I have yet to make it to the chorus.

[ashersky]

Should have bought Ambassador and sent a few provinces to him to empty the pile faster.

[Kirian]

Next time rick-roll him in the chat bar. Seriously, I have yet to make it to the chorus.

I am so using that.

[lespeutere]

I am being slow-played RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT, as I live and breathe.

His Goko name is barry.

First he accused me of cheating, because I was making pretty good Wishing Well guesses. (I have two cards left in my deck, 2 of them are Copper, I guess Copper, and I am right... obviously I am cheating!)

I kindly explained to him how I was able to make pretty good (though well short of perfect) WW guesses. Well, now he is slow-playing me. Like, really really badly. Usually, people just give it up after like 2-3 turns of this, but he is absolutely committed to it.

I am loathe to give in to the Goko terrorists, so I guess I am going to play it out like this. I am so mad though.

Similar experience before.

[Warfreak2]

Robz888   plays Golem
Robz888   reveals Silver, Wishing Well, Gold, Province, Province, Province, Province, Wishing Well

Best Golem ever?

[shark_bait]

My favorite part about this thread was watching the time stamps for when everything was posted.  That seriously looks like the game from hell.

[ftl]

I posted a bug report on getsatisfaction, but that'll do no good because it looks like nobody from goko has checked in there in weeks.

[ehunt]

I posted a bug report on getsatisfaction, but that'll do no good because it looks like nobody from goko has checked in there in weeks.

Goko is slowplaying you

[Ichimaru Gin]

In the little I've played on Goko, I wasn't aware that this had a name. But in several games where I was ahead, I noticed that my opponent would drag out their turn for at least a full minute or 2
Plus, yeah, I guess any time you play a card that requires them to make a decision, they wait on that too.
That really sucks. It seems like Goko should do something about it though.

[KingZog3]

In the little I've played on Goko, I wasn't aware that this had a name. But in several games where I was ahead, I noticed that my opponent would drag out their turn for at least a full minute or 2
Plus, yeah, I guess any time you play a card that requires them to make a decision, they wait on that too.
That really sucks. It seems like Goko should do something about it though.

It's tough because sometimes there are decisions to make. I've been stuck having to give up a good card to masquerade or something, or I want to avoid misclicks so I take my time. This makes it tough to sift through the decision makers and the people who are wasting everyone's time.

[Robz888]

Sometimes it's just a bad internet connection, sometimes you are taking a long turn so they are doing other things and miss that they need to play... so it's not always malicious. But this barry guy was an admitted criminal.

[Ichimaru Gin]

KingZog3

Yeah. I currently play only with the base set on Goko, so mostly it's stuff like "what should I discard to militia" or something.
But I can totally see your point that with the more complicated cards from expansions, people would require more time.
I play most of my games in real life--but it's hard to always find people to play with, so then I play online.
I never got the chance to play on Isotropic, but did people try the same stuff on there?

[sudgy]

KingZog3

Yeah. I currently play only with the base set on Goko, so mostly it's stuff like "what should I discard to militia" or something.
But I can totally see your point that with the more complicated cards from expansions, it would take more time.
I play most of my games in real life--but it's hard to always find people to play with, so then I play online.
I never got the chance to play on Isotropic, but did people try the same stuff on there?

Some people did, but Iso made it easier to deal with them (by having a shorter time out limit (and it asked if you wanted to kick them), by making a sound when you had to make a decision, and having the window say when you had to make a decision).  I remember just grabbing a book and reading it, then playing as soon as they were done.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sometimes, I get the feeling that I really missed out by not playing on Isotropic.
It's a shame that they had to end it. It sounds like it had a superior system to Goko.
When I first started playing on Goko, it just struck me as having an interface that was too simple--like there should have been more options for things. Even just a game-type with time limits on turns would be nice.

[Robz888]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, how does Goko decide who gets to go first? I've only played like 15 games or so, but I think I only went first once or twice. It didn't seem to make a difference if I had started the game or was joining one either.
That may not be a statistically large enough sample, but I just feel like it's a lot harder to get information about how a lot of things work on there.
Whereas, it seems like Isotropic had an extremely open interface with a lot of options and information.

[blueblimp]

Kingdom selection is something I like more on Goko than on isotropic. People would tend to veto cards I find interesting (Possession, various attacks, Chapel, etc) and the only other option was to show the full kingdom before starting, and then people would decline the match if not liking the kingdom. Ugh. Sure it would be nice to veto Rebuild or sometimes bias kingdom selection by expansion, but overall I'm much happier with full random.

[Robz888]

Also, how does Goko decide who gets to go first? I've only played like 15 games or so, but I think I only went first once or twice. It didn't seem to make a difference if I had started the game or was joining one either.
That may not be a statistically large enough sample, but I just feel like it's a lot harder to get information about how a lot of things work on there.
Whereas, it seems like Isotropic had an extremely open interface with a lot of options and information.

Goko decides it at random, sadly. Iso made last game's loser go first...

[yed]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

[blueblimp]

Just remembered the other thing I disliked about veto mode, which is that you veto after knowing who goes first in the game. That makes veto choice strategic, and that strategy is often incompatible with having fun. First player advantage tends to be enhanced by strong kingdom cards and reduced by weak kingdom cards, so for the first player it's not so bad: mostly just veto any dud cards present (Thief, Counting House, Scout, etc.) and maybe Smugglers since that is a bit P2 friendly.

But for P2, apart from vetoing cards with obvious first-player advantage (Governor, Tournament), you also want to slow the game down, particularly looking to veto key components of megaturn engines. This pushes the kingdom in an engine-unfriendly direction.

[Robz888]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

[sudgy]

I don't care much for identical starting hands, but I don't like veto mode.  At all.  It discourages getting better at the game.

[Robz888]

I don't care much for identical starting hands, but I don't like veto mode.  At all.  It discourages getting better at the game.

If you play it exclusively, sure. But I like it as a nice change of pace.

[blueblimp]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

I'm not a huge fan of identical starting hands (though I don't hate it either). Sure uneven starting hands can give one player an advantage, but something similar (and often more extreme) can happen if both players open 4/3, then one player hits $5 twice on T3/T4 and the other player doesn't exceed $4 on those turns. Or say Goons is present and one player can't hit $6 to save his life. It's just a part of Dominion.

[yed]

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

Ok, It is not that strong don't like as for veto. I don't mind it sometimes. The think I like about different starting hands is how it   sometimes forces different strategies or at least different steps in building.

[Robz888]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

I'm not a huge fan of identical starting hands (though I don't hate it either). Sure uneven starting hands can give one player an advantage, but something similar (and often more extreme) can happen if both players open 4/3, then one player hits $5 twice on T3/T4 and the other player doesn't exceed $4 on those turns. Or say Goons is present and one player can't hit $6 to save his life. It's just a part of Dominion.

Sure, and of course shuffle luck has to kick in at some point and it can be just as annoying on Turn 3 as it is on Turn 1 I guess... but there's just something so wrong to me about starting off on a different playing field.

[Robz888]

And actually, my "House Rule" on starting hands is I think the best one: You can organize your starting 10 cards in whatever order you want before the game begins.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well particularly if there's any good 5-coster out there. It seems only fair to let people decide their hand. Although in some kingdoms, I guess a 5/2 split could be a disadvantage. Anyway, I think the option at least is always nice.

[Robz888]

Well particularly if there's any good 5-coster out there. It seems only fair to let people decide their hand. Although in some kingdoms, I guess a 5/2 split could be a disadvantage. Anyway, I think the option at least is always nice.

I don't know, I feel like the 5/2 split is either significantly better (if there's a power card at $5, like Cultist or Mountebank or Witch), or disastrous if there isn't. The least common option, I think, is like 5/2 being relatively equal to 4/3.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yeah, if you run into a kingdom where there is no 5 cost card, you couldn't pick a silver and say a 4 coster--which would definitely suck. But yeah, those aren't too common.
So like you said, the 5/2 seems a little more extreme in whether it's good or not.
But 5/2 splits have a lesser chance of occurring than 4/3's right?

[markusin]

Though I was never one to mind veto mode, I do really like having players play with equal starting hands. It's the one thing you can do to reduce shuffle luck without breaking the game like you would by modifying Turn 3 and onward.

And actually, my "House Rule" on starting hands is I think the best one: You can organize your starting 10 cards in whatever order you want before the game begins.

Now this "House Rule" sounds pretty cool. Players may not make the same choice as to what their starting hands are, and the first two turns sometimes have a critical role in the strategy that you want to play. At least, you don't have to worry about 5/2 starting hands on Ambassador boards.

[liopoil]

I don't so much like that rule because there are so many boards where 5/2 is much better and players will both choose that route. 5/2 should only happen 1/6th of the time normally, with this rule it happens much more often. I prefer identical starting hands.

[KingZog3]

My house rule was veto mode (plus we just removed Goons because it was always vetoed without question). But playing full random is fun. IRL is slower though, so slogs are less fun with strong attacks, which I think is the main reason people lie veto mode. Online it doesn't matter as much since shuffling takes a split second.

Also I had a friend who only played with every started 4/3. It's not bad, since it reduces the luck factor on some boards, but there are many times when 4/3 is just as good as 5/2. Even if there are powerful cards like Witch.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am a huge fan of pro mode. As another stated, playing with all the cards is how you get better at the game. A lot of times, people would just veto a card because they hated it and not for strategic reasons, and personally, I am not a fan of that.

Now, I really would like to have identical starting hands back.

[KingZog3]

I am a huge fan of pro mode. As another stated, playing with all the cards is how you get better at the game. A lot of times, people would just veto a card because they hated it and not for strategic reasons, and personally, I am not a fan of that.

And sometimes people are good at a card, yet hate it because it's not fun *cough*goons*cough*

[serakfalcon]

And sometimes people are good at a card, yet hate it because it's not fun *cough*goons*cough*

Naw, what other card lets you get 500+ points?

[sudgy]

I am a huge fan of pro mode. As another stated, playing with all the cards is how you get better at the game. A lot of times, people would just veto a card because they hated it and not for strategic reasons, and personally, I am not a fan of that.

And sometimes people are good at a card, yet hate it because it's not fun *cough*goons*cough*

I like goons.  I card that I would say it is for me is Tournament.  My last two games with it, I crushed because of it.  Earlier I got three prizes in one turn with one province, then two the next turn.

[KingZog3]

I am a huge fan of pro mode. As another stated, playing with all the cards is how you get better at the game. A lot of times, people would just veto a card because they hated it and not for strategic reasons, and personally, I am not a fan of that.

And sometimes people are good at a card, yet hate it because it's not fun *cough*goons*cough*

I like goons.  I card that I would say it is for me is Tournament.  My last two games with it, I crushed because of it.  Earlier I got three prizes in one turn with one province, then two the next turn.

When I KC'd Tournament and revealed 3 Provinces my opponent instantly resigned. Tournament is not much fun either.

[serakfalcon]

I am a huge fan of pro mode. As another stated, playing with all the cards is how you get better at the game. A lot of times, people would just veto a card because they hated it and not for strategic reasons, and personally, I am not a fan of that.

And sometimes people are good at a card, yet hate it because it's not fun *cough*goons*cough*

I like goons.  I card that I would say it is for me is Tournament.  My last two games with it, I crushed because of it.  Earlier I got three prizes in one turn with one province, then two the next turn.

When I KC'd Tournament and revealed 3 Provinces my opponent instantly resigned. Tournament is not much fun either.

I think you guys take winning way too seriously. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, they just amplify the existing luck in the game a little, and require skill to pull off. So, they both make for really crazy games that change the way you normally play. For example, I lost this one but it was awesome.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131106/log.5146a736e4b0f922253718ab.1383736550764.txt

[ashersky]

And sometimes people are good at a card, yet hate it because it's not fun *cough*goons*cough*

Naw, what other card lets you get 500+ points?

Monument.

Also Scout, if used at Level 6.

[florrat]

Victory! Victory for the forces of good!!!

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131116/log.5136e2dee4b07cef820a1126.1384656533039.txt

On the positive side, the slow-playing of your opponent caused you to get the message of the week. That has to count for something...

[Awaclus]

KingZog3

Yeah. I currently play only with the base set on Goko, so mostly it's stuff like "what should I discard to militia" or something.
But I can totally see your point that with the more complicated cards from expansions, it would take more time.
I play most of my games in real life--but it's hard to always find people to play with, so then I play online.
I never got the chance to play on Isotropic, but did people try the same stuff on there?

Some people did, but Iso made it easier to deal with them (by having a shorter time out limit (and it asked if you wanted to kick them), by making a sound when you had to make a decision, and having the window say when you had to make a decision).  I remember just grabbing a book and reading it, then playing as soon as they were done.

Also, wasn't the time limit reduced every time if you were taking a lot of time each turn?

[ftl]

KingZog3

Yeah. I currently play only with the base set on Goko, so mostly it's stuff like "what should I discard to militia" or something.
But I can totally see your point that with the more complicated cards from expansions, it would take more time.
I play most of my games in real life--but it's hard to always find people to play with, so then I play online.
I never got the chance to play on Isotropic, but did people try the same stuff on there?

Some people did, but Iso made it easier to deal with them (by having a shorter time out limit (and it asked if you wanted to kick them), by making a sound when you had to make a decision, and having the window say when you had to make a decision).  I remember just grabbing a book and reading it, then playing as soon as they were done.

Also, wasn't the time limit reduced every time if you were taking a lot of time each turn?

There was a formula for how isotropic determined whether you were taking "too long" and could be kicked out. It was deliberately kept secret so slow-players couldn't deliberately play to it.

[Puddleglumm]

This doesn't seem like a super hard problem to solve. If you track a players average decision time you could publish it so people who slow played frequently would be known. You could also use this info to tell when a player is playing significantly slower than usual, warn them to speed it up in the interface somehow, and boot them if they don't. But I doubt this is even on Goko's radar.

[soulnet]

There was a formula for how isotropic determined whether you were taking "too long" and could be kicked out. It was deliberately kept secret so slow-players couldn't deliberately play to it.

Are you sure it wasn't just too complicated to put into a formula?

[SCSN]

This doesn't seem like a super hard problem to solve.

You have to remember that Goko's job assessment includes playing 10 games against Serf Bot, and they employ only those who lose them all.

[Kirian]

There was a formula for how isotropic determined whether you were taking "too long" and could be kicked out. It was deliberately kept secret so slow-players couldn't deliberately play to it.

Are you sure it wasn't just too complicated to put into a formula?

Presumably the formula involved chicken.  Lots of chicken.

[Eevee]

And actually, my "House Rule" on starting hands is I think the best one: You can organize your starting 10 cards in whatever order you want before the game begins.

Improvement idea: The player going last gets to decide what way everyone arranges their deck (essentially identical starting hands that aren't random). Reduces first player advantage, secures identical hands for an even playing field, lets you not play the unfun 5-2's where you buy a three-cost and nothing.. unless someone likes it, which is bound to happen every once in a while.

[AdamH]

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

Maybe in a tournament setting where the only goal is to amplify the effect of skill.

But it's so much fun to win against someone who opened 5/2 on an IGG/Mountebank board or someone who collides TMaps on turn 5 without buying Warehouse (or any other support). Maybe that's a little Timmy-ish of me but variance keeps the game fresh for me.

Don't you get tired of *always* getting the dream 5/2 opening on Mountebank boards? I would...

[SCSN]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

Eh, why? Identical starting hands, by decreasing variance, increase first-player advantage, and I already find FPA far more annoying than the luck factor.

[Robz888]

Isotropic had the awesome, essential identical starting hands option and they very cool "veto mode." I miss those things so much.

This may be the only two things I don't miss from Isotropic. And Pro mode in Goko is one of few things I like on Goko.

(Isotropic did not have Pro mode as Goko has. You had either seen the Kingdom before deciding whether to play it or veto mode where each player vetoes one of (10+number of players) Kingdom cards.)

You don't like identical starting hands!? Identical starting hands is how Dominion should be played, I'm sorry.

Eh, why? Identical starting hands, by decreasing variance, increase first-player advantage, and I already find FPA far more annoying than the luck factor.

Well, it's a matter of taste, then.

But someone has to go first, so that's just a flaw of Dominion.

The flaw of "you got Cultist so this game is (likely) over on Turn 1" can be fixed, though.

[ftl]

It's just a special case of "shuffle luck matters". It's not a flaw. Shuffle luck isn't a defect of dominion, it's part of  the way the game is *supposed* to work.

[blueblimp]

It's just a special case of "shuffle luck matters". It's not a flaw. Shuffle luck isn't a defect of dominion, it's part of  the way the game is *supposed* to work.

Generally it's better to have less luck in a competitive setting and more luck in a casual setting, so it makes a lot of sense to play tournaments with variants that tone down the luck factor without hurting the core game.

[yed]

The flaw of "you got Cultist so this game is (likely) over on Turn 1" can be fixed, though.

I have lost by opening Cultist/- a lot of times.... I even thing silver/silver Cultists big money is stronger than Cultist/- Cultists big money...
And with no trashing Cultists big money is quite strong...

[rrwoods]

Honestly I have gone through phases on identical starting hands. At first I thought "that's not dominion", then I thought "well it decreases luck so it has to be good", and then I got to where I am now.

Look, first and foremost -- it's not in the rules. It's not dominion.

As far as the skill is concerned (which is, of course, what most of this community is worried about) I will quote donald: "Dominion is high-skill high-luck, like poker." Guys, luck and skill are orthogonal! Decreasing one may have no effect, the opposite effect, or the same effect, on the other. It's my belief that identical starting hands decreases both, especially at very high levels of play.

Even 4/3 is different from 3/4 on some boards -- if there are two competing strategies with different openings, p2's turn 1 might respond to p1's turn 1 (high level players can't tell me this hasn't happened, right?). And what if both openings have the same $3 but different $4s?

I could go on and on but I don't think I'll really convince anyone of anything, so...

tl;dr -- identical starting hands is dumb and i'd rather play dominion

[sudgy]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

[LastFootnote]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

Why did you buy the Copper?

[soulnet]

luck and skill are orthogonal!

Not quite. I certainly agree they are not parallel, but I don't think they are orthogonal either.

Anyway, they cannot be orthogonal, because the game is evaluated in a one dimensional scale (loss < draw < win), so you can project their influence into this linear scale and orthogonality is lost.

In less ridiculously abstract terms, if a game is "each player throws 100 dice, the one with largest sum is the winner, in case of equal sums, the winner of a chess match is the winner" you could argue it is high skill because chess is, and being better at chess improves your odds of winning at this game. However, luck is such a large factor, that skill influence is basically negligible.

So, I think the argument of "opening luck has a too large influence on the outcome, to the point that it eclipses skill" is valid. If the condition is true is a different discussion, and probably the discussion that makes sense. It definitely feels true in some cases, and shuffle luck is definitely more important than skill in a significant portion of the games. Identical starting hands is an attempt to reduce that factor, an attempt that I agree does not reduce skill. Reducing shuffle luck altogether is less likely to succeed, because you also want to avoid analysis paralysis and shifting focus from the actual game.

I don't like the "start however you want" because of the shifting focus, although it is an interesting variant to try. Also, I feel like in a significant portion of the boards it would induce too much AP.

I like identical starting hands in principle, but I don't like that it increases, though slightly, first player advantage. One of the advantages of 2nd player (and later players in general for >2 player games) is knowing the opening distribution and the buy. Knowing that there are identical starting hands eliminates one part of that advantage.

[sudgy]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

Why did you buy the Copper?

Coppers help you out when going for Duchy/Duke.

[shark_bait]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

[GeoLib]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I am going to be so crushed if I have kids who don't like board games.

[LastFootnote]

I just got reminded when I opened 2/5 on a duke board and opened Copper/Mountebank.  My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

Why did you buy the Copper?

Coppers help you out when going for Duchy/Duke.

Hmm, I'll buy that that's usually the case. But when Mountebank's on the board, I think you'd want to wait on Copper flooding until midgame because A) more Copper in your deck means you play Mountebank less often and B) it also means you're less likely to have a Curse in hand to defend against your opponent's Mountebanks.

[markusin]

Okay so, I get that Dominion was designed to have a randomness factor from the start. Donald X. settled on the 7C/3E starting decks in order to have that Turn 1-Turn 2 variance. I like not knowing whether I'll start with a 5/2 or a 3/4 opening on a board. The luck factor really helps enhance the casual experience.

It's just, having player end up with different starting hands can leave a bad taste in someone's mouth at the end of the game, even if luck balances out later in the game. Players may feel like they had an unfair advantage/disadvantage from the very start that detracts from the value of the win or loss at the end. Or, you know, they get a huge ego boost for winning a game where they felt they had the worse opening hand.

Having a third party (such as a computer) that can ensure that each player at least has the same copper split for their opening hands, even if the order is different, just seems like an option that would be nice to have. But perhaps, first player advantage is a bigger issue that should be addressed in tournament settings by having alternating first players.

Having said all that, I like Goko's Pro-mode a lot. It's nice to be forced to man up and play with cards like Possession, Goons, and Rebuild. It's just not quite as well suited for tournament play.

[Ozle]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I am going to be so crushed if I have kids who don't like board games.

If they don't just take them back and exchange them for new ones.

[qmech]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I am going to be so crushed if I have kids who don't like board games.

If they don't just take them back and exchange them for new ones.

I've always assumed that this is what's meant by "Baby changing area".

[blueblimp]

Since we're discussing luck, I'll assume everyone has seen Richard Garfield's talk on it, since he gives a lot of insight into the subject.

Honestly I have gone through phases on identical starting hands. At first I thought "that's not dominion", then I thought "well it decreases luck so it has to be good", and then I got to where I am now.

Look, first and foremost -- it's not in the rules. It's not dominion.

I think everyone would agree that it's a variant. But (in my opinion) it's completely fine to play a variant as long as you understand why the original rule existed and have a good reason for changing it. It's normal to have tournament rules for games that may be slightly different than the rules people use when playing casually.

Dominion was designed primarily as a 3-player hobby game, not a 2-player competitive game. Of course Donald X. made it work with 2 and 4 players too, but still it's almost an accident that 2-player competition works as well as it does. Having the possibility of different starting hands in a 3-player hobby context is great: it slightly increases variety in openings, and the increase in luck is a good thing.

In a 2-player competitive context, it's preferable to tone down the luck, because then fewer games are needed to determine the better player of two people who are close to evenly matched. It's debatable whether the slight loss in opening variety is worth it.

[flies]

Anyway, they cannot be orthogonal, because the game is evaluated in a one dimensional scale (loss < draw < win), so you can project their influence into this linear scale and orthogonality is lost.

+10

[() | (_) ^/]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?

 

[Awaclus]

The Finnish national championships this year were played with the rule that both players could choose between a 3/4 and a 4/3 opening split (player 1 choosing first, then player 2). I liked the rule in a tournament setting.

[mail-mi]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?

 

Can't tell if serious...

[Jdaki]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?

 

Can't tell if serious...

Same. For the quoted. Not the quoted quote.

[SirPeebles]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?

 

Can't tell if serious...

Same. For the quoted. Not the quoted quote.

Same. For the quoted. Not for the quoted quote nor the quoted quoted quote.

[ftl]

"Can't tell if serious"

[Ozle]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?

 

Can't tell if serious...

Same. For the quoted. Not the quoted quote.

*Can tell if serious*
*Isn't telling if serious*

Seriously, you guys don't have a Serious detector?

[Qvist]

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Now when I've got these antlers on, I AM dictating, and when I take them off, I am NOT dictating.

[elahrairah13]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I just want to brag a minute - I have played three generation Dominion. My daughter actually started occasionally playing Dominion at age 4 (she's 6 now), although we don't play often. Her favorite game is Forbidden Island. Meanwhile I introduced my dad to Dominion on a trip home for Christmas. We played a bunch of games in a few days (anecdote: he got super cocky after just a few games and decided he had it mastered, so I set up a Watchtower/Goons board that he never saw coming. I'm not a good child).
And once we played three generations worth! (although it wasn't so great - my kid's attention span for board games falters during 3+ players because she has to wait too long for her turn and that adds up over the course the game, plus my dad doesn't have the patience that playing adult board games with little kids requires)

[KingZog3]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I just want to brag a minute - I have played three generation Dominion. My daughter actually started occasionally playing Dominion at age 4 (she's 6 now), although we don't play often. Her favorite game is Forbidden Island. Meanwhile I introduced my dad to Dominion on a trip home for Christmas. We played a bunch of games in a few days (anecdote: he got super cocky after just a few games and decided he had it mastered, so I set up a Watchtower/Goons board that he never saw coming. I'm not a good child).
And once we played three generations worth! (although it wasn't so great - my kid's attention span for board games falters during 3+ players because she has to wait too long for her turn and that adds up over the course the game, plus my dad doesn't have the patience that playing adult board games with little kids requires)

If he was acting cocky, then he had the Goons/Watchtower coming to him

[sudgy]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I just want to brag a minute - I have played three generation Dominion. My daughter actually started occasionally playing Dominion at age 4 (she's 6 now), although we don't play often. Her favorite game is Forbidden Island. Meanwhile I introduced my dad to Dominion on a trip home for Christmas. We played a bunch of games in a few days (anecdote: he got super cocky after just a few games and decided he had it mastered, so I set up a Watchtower/Goons board that he never saw coming. I'm not a good child).
And once we played three generations worth! (although it wasn't so great - my kid's attention span for board games falters during 3+ players because she has to wait too long for her turn and that adds up over the course the game, plus my dad doesn't have the patience that playing adult board games with little kids requires)

If he was acting cocky, then he had the Goons/Watchtower coming to him

Not as bad as me setting up KC/Goons/Masquerade after he was gloating in a huge victory.

[KingZog3]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I just want to brag a minute - I have played three generation Dominion. My daughter actually started occasionally playing Dominion at age 4 (she's 6 now), although we don't play often. Her favorite game is Forbidden Island. Meanwhile I introduced my dad to Dominion on a trip home for Christmas. We played a bunch of games in a few days (anecdote: he got super cocky after just a few games and decided he had it mastered, so I set up a Watchtower/Goons board that he never saw coming. I'm not a good child).
And once we played three generations worth! (although it wasn't so great - my kid's attention span for board games falters during 3+ players because she has to wait too long for her turn and that adds up over the course the game, plus my dad doesn't have the patience that playing adult board games with little kids requires)

If he was acting cocky, then he had the Goons/Watchtower coming to him

Not as bad as me setting up KC/Goons/Masquerade after he was gloating in a huge victory.

Were you teaching him Dominion? Or how to hate Dominion?

[AJD]

My daughter actually started occasionally playing Dominion at age 4 (she's 6 now), although we don't play often. Her favorite game is Forbidden Island.

elahrairah13's_daughter plays Embargo
…elahrairah13's_daughter gets +$2
…elahrairah13's_daughter trashes the Embargo
…elahrairah13's_daughter puts an Embargo token on Island

[ConMan]

My daughter actually started occasionally playing Dominion at age 4 (she's 6 now), although we don't play often. Her favorite game is Forbidden Island.

elahrairah13's_daughter plays Embargo
…elahrairah13's_daughter gets +$2
…elahrairah13's_daughter trashes the Embargo
…elahrairah13's_daughter puts an Embargo token on Island

That's not really forbidden. I think you meant:

elahrairah13 plays Contraband
…elahrairah13's_daughter names Island

[sudgy]

My dad was freaking out about why I bought the copper.

I'm going to be so stoked when I'm a father and my kids are capable of playing Dominion with me!  This is many many years ahead for me, but your comment made me think about some of the joys associated with raising a family one of which is seeing them be interested in the things that I'm interested in.  That's so awesome that your dad plays Dominion with you! 

I just want to brag a minute - I have played three generation Dominion. My daughter actually started occasionally playing Dominion at age 4 (she's 6 now), although we don't play often. Her favorite game is Forbidden Island. Meanwhile I introduced my dad to Dominion on a trip home for Christmas. We played a bunch of games in a few days (anecdote: he got super cocky after just a few games and decided he had it mastered, so I set up a Watchtower/Goons board that he never saw coming. I'm not a good child).
And once we played three generations worth! (although it wasn't so great - my kid's attention span for board games falters during 3+ players because she has to wait too long for her turn and that adds up over the course the game, plus my dad doesn't have the patience that playing adult board games with little kids requires)

If he was acting cocky, then he had the Goons/Watchtower coming to him

Not as bad as me setting up KC/Goons/Masquerade after he was gloating in a huge victory.

Were you teaching him Dominion? Or how to hate Dominion?

He knew how to play, and likes it.

[dondon151]

As far as the skill is concerned (which is, of course, what most of this community is worried about) I will quote donald: "Dominion is high-skill high-luck, like poker."

I never said that!

[blueblimp]

Next time rick-roll him in the chat bar. Seriously, I have yet to make it to the chorus.

I just tried this while being slow-rolled by tgorm, and can confirm it works! Just as I was reaching the end of the last verse, he began playing a normal speed again.

[theParty]

I just went on here and searched tgorm just to see if anyone else had been slow rolled by him - lo and behold, I wasn't the only one!  Also saw another guy in the chat room complaining about him slow playing after he was obviously beat later on that day.

Nobody needs to hear the specifics (he thought I was getting lucky, he made some bad choices at the beginning which contributed to him being unlucky, he curses, then the slow plays.....).

Anyway, for anyone still looking at this thread - tgorm.  Don't play him.  Honestly, do yourself a favor and don't do it.

[Wolphmaniac]

I just went on here and searched tgorm just to see if anyone else had been slow rolled by him - lo and behold, I wasn't the only one!  Also saw another guy in the chat room complaining about him slow playing after he was obviously beat later on that day.

Nobody needs to hear the specifics (he thought I was getting lucky, he made some bad choices at the beginning which contributed to him being unlucky, he curses, then the slow plays.....).

Anyway, for anyone still looking at this thread - tgorm.  Don't play him.  Honestly, do yourself a favor and don't do it.

I just played tgorm.  What a nightmare.  He got a 2/5 he didn't like, so he started complaining about it and then started calling me names and to "sit and wait like a bitch".  I never even said anything.  All this because he didn't like his 2/5.  I blacklisted him with the extension, but oh my god what a psycho.

[Kuildeous]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?

 

Can't tell if serious...

Same. For the quoted. Not the quoted quote.

Same. For the quoted. Not for the quoted quote nor the quoted quoted quote.

Same. And by that, I mean the quoted quoted quoted quote. I too am sorry for laughing at how my cat ran over my dog. Please accept my apologies.

Signed,
The other other Barry

[() | (_) ^/]

Sorry robz, barry is a goko alt of mine.  The "b" is silent, fyi. (as is the "y" on 19 September every year.)

RE: our game... You caught me at a bad time -- I was unfocused on our game because my dog has just been run over.

By my cat, actually -- my cat ran over my dog.  More like jumped, to be completely accurate.  It was the funniest thing I've seen in a long time, and I laughed and laughed.  That's why my play was so slow, because I could hardly breathe and concentrate on the game for long periods of time because I was laughing at how my cat ran over my dog.

Anyways -- my apologies.  Will you forgive me?

 

Can't tell if serious...

Same. For the quoted. Not the quoted quote.

Same. For the quoted. Not for the quoted quote nor the quoted quoted quote.

Same. And by that, I mean the quoted quoted quoted quote. I too am sorry for laughing at how my cat ran over my dog. Please accept my apologies.

Signed,
The other other Barry

I hate it when the other other alt of my other alt appears.

[Jimmmmm]

I wasn't sure the best place to post this, so I thought here would be fine.

Just played a game against someone by the username Jorgen: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140304/log.516f307ae4b082c74d7def63.1393966935210.txt

The key cards were King's Court, Mountebank, Band of Misfits, Bishop and Moat. I stacked up on KCs and BoMs. I started my turn 25 with a hand including 2 KCs and a BoM. There was one pile empty, and the BoMs and Curses were down to one each. I had a 6-point lead. So all I had to do was hand out the last Curse and buy the last BoM. So I started KCing BoMs as Moats and ended up drawing my whole deck. It turned out he had a Moat, so I couldn't finish the game that turn, so once I'd drawn my deck I used BoM as Bishop to trash away all my Curses etc, and maximised my lead to ensure he couldn't catch up. Now maybe I should have just played them as Monuments instead, but whatever.

Here is the conversation we had:

Jorgen jesus dude.
Jimmmmm
Jorgen You only get one buy, you know? What's the point?
Jimmmmm trash my curses, get points
Jorgen Yeah, but you could accomplish this without this endless chaining.
Jimmmmm ...how?
Jorgen By using your BOM to be bishops instead of endlessly kings courting the moat.
Jimmmmm but that would be bad play
Jorgen Because?
Jimmmmm why would that be better than drawing my deck first?
Jorgen Because it' expends less time.
Jorgen Like, SERIOUSLY??
Jimmmmm yep.
Jorgen **** this, and **** you.
Jimmmmm dude relax
Jimmmmm it's a game
Jorgen YOU ******* INCONSIDERATE POORSPORT
Jorgen GO **** YOURSELF
Jimmmmm uh, no
Jorgen Welcome to the blacklist,
Jimmmmm if you hadn't had a moat the game would be over this turn
Jorgen ******* ***.
Jimmmmm i'm maximising my lead to ensure that you don't catch up next turn
Jimmmmm i'm playing the game
Jimmmmm i'm posting this conversation to the forums btw
Jorgen Here's a ******* newsflash for you ********, THERE ARE NO EXTRA BUYS. Endless chaining is for *********. wait it out, like you made me wait. Oh, and eat a ******* ****.
Jimmmmm wow
Jimmmmm are you making me wait until we time out?
Jimmmmm wow
Jimmmmm thanks for blacklisting me btw, i really appreciate it
Jorgen When i say that, I don't mean just me. There's a community here that doesn't want to play people who play like you play. 4500+. Eat a sack of catpiss.
Jimmmmm what?
Jimmmmm they don't want to play against people who play to win?
Jimmmmm you're being ridiculous
Jimmmmm they'd rather play against people who swear at them?
Jorgen Ugh. You arrogant ****. It's math, jackhole. You can't buy anything over 8. You cycling endlessly is just jerking off.
Jimmmmm no it's not
Jorgen Ok.
Jimmmmm i trashed all my bad cards because i did that
Jorgen Then you can just sit there.
Jimmmmm a got a probably unassailable lead
Jimmmmm why are you so ****** off that you're losing?
Jorgen Yup, you're going to win. If you can stand it.
Jorgen I don't mind losing.
Jimmmmm apparently you do
Jorgen It's not going to affect my life.
Jimmmmm you're saying it would have been better to keep all my curses, coppers etc?
Jimmmmm and finish my turn with fewer points?
Jorgen But I do mind playing arrogant ******** like you who waste peoples time.
Jimmmmm this is a game
Jimmmmm no one's making you play it
Jimmmmm but you know the cards in the game, and you know there are some that take longer than others
Jimmmmm you could have quit as soon as you saw that it had king's court and mountebank
Jorgen I no longer care what you say, and I'm not reading another word. Wait it out like you made me wait. *****.,
Jimmmmm i made you wait, what, a couple of minutes while i was PLAYING THE GAME
Jorgen I'm going to sit here until it warns me of a time out, and then play one card, and wait until it warns me again. Just so you can get the full effect of how ******* annoying you are.
Jimmmmm you're making me wait to be a vindictive ******
Jorgen Ciao
Jorgen **** staright.
Jimmmmm it's people like you that make online games unfun
Jimmmmm i'm off to get some breakfast, see you in a bit
Jorgen Aw.
Jorgen No worries, enjoy.
Jimmmmm thanks
*** Jorgen has left the game.

So, I don't know, I'm less furious than I am bemused. Is there a way to report this sort of behaviour?

Another thing I'm wondering: If I'm about to end the game, I will maximise my points on the current turn. So in this situation that would mean trashing all my Curses and playing a bunch of Monuments. Usually it means buying a few more VP cards than you need. Is this considered to be inconsiderate? If I could have ended the game with my initial hand I would have just done that, but given that I'd drawn my deck anyway, I'm going to trash those Curses and play those Monuments/Bishops. Obviously this game was a bit different in that I couldn't end the game on my turn, and I had no idea what he had in his hand, or how many points he would be able to get on his turn.

[ashersky]

Another thing I'm wondering: If I'm about to end the game, I will maximise my points on the current turn. So in this situation that would mean trashing all my Curses and playing a bunch of Monuments. Usually it means buying a few more VP cards than you need. Is this considered to be inconsiderate? If I could have ended the game with my initial hand I would have just done that, but given that I'd drawn my deck anyway, I'm going to trash those Curses and play those Monuments/Bishops. Obviously this game was a bit different in that I couldn't end the game on my turn, and I had no idea what he had in his hand, or how many points he would be able to get on his turn.

I think you were fine to do what you did.  You improved your deck and your score through trashing, and I'm assuming you bought the last BOM, intending to gain/buy the final curse next?

It's frustrated to be on the receiving end of a long KC-draw-attack chain, for sure.  But his (over)reaction was ridiculous.

[Jimmmmm]

Another thing I'm wondering: If I'm about to end the game, I will maximise my points on the current turn. So in this situation that would mean trashing all my Curses and playing a bunch of Monuments. Usually it means buying a few more VP cards than you need. Is this considered to be inconsiderate? If I could have ended the game with my initial hand I would have just done that, but given that I'd drawn my deck anyway, I'm going to trash those Curses and play those Monuments/Bishops. Obviously this game was a bit different in that I couldn't end the game on my turn, and I had no idea what he had in his hand, or how many points he would be able to get on his turn.

I think you were fine to do what you did.  You improved your deck and your score through trashing, and I'm assuming you bought the last BOM, intending to gain/buy the final curse next?

It's frustrated to be on the receiving end of a long KC-draw-attack chain, for sure.  But his (over)reaction was ridiculous.

Thanks. Yep, I definitely would have quickly ended the game on my next turn. His point was that I should have just played Bishop on whatever cards I happened to have in my hand, without drawing my deck first, which is ludicrous.

[Awaclus]

Another thing I'm wondering: If I'm about to end the game, I will maximise my points on the current turn. So in this situation that would mean trashing all my Curses and playing a bunch of Monuments. Usually it means buying a few more VP cards than you need. Is this considered to be inconsiderate? If I could have ended the game with my initial hand I would have just done that, but given that I'd drawn my deck anyway, I'm going to trash those Curses and play those Monuments/Bishops. Obviously this game was a bit different in that I couldn't end the game on my turn, and I had no idea what he had in his hand, or how many points he would be able to get on his turn.

Maximizing your odds of winning when it's likely that you're going to win anyway: not inconsiderate
Maximizing your VP when it's 100% guaranteed that you're going to win anyway: inconsiderate

[ashersky]

Thanks. Yep, I definitely would have quickly ended the game on my next turn. His point was that I should have just played Bishop on whatever cards I happened to have in my hand, without drawing my deck first, which is ludicrous.

If you can't end the game on your current turn, you should play that turn for your own maximum benefit (that is, to get you closer to winning).

It's like, if you had Gold-Copper-KC-Lab-Bishop, and you needed to buy the last BoM and the last curse, the correct course of action is NOT Bishoping the KC and buying BOM.  That's what it sounds like he'd prefer you had done.

[Watno]

Just resign if your opponent is taking too long securing his win?

[GeoLib]

Another thing I'm wondering: If I'm about to end the game, I will maximise my points on the current turn. So in this situation that would mean trashing all my Curses and playing a bunch of Monuments. Usually it means buying a few more VP cards than you need. Is this considered to be inconsiderate? If I could have ended the game with my initial hand I would have just done that, but given that I'd drawn my deck anyway, I'm going to trash those Curses and play those Monuments/Bishops. Obviously this game was a bit different in that I couldn't end the game on my turn, and I had no idea what he had in his hand, or how many points he would be able to get on his turn.

Maximizing your odds of winning when it's likely that you're going to win anyway: not inconsiderate
Maximizing your VP when it's 100% guaranteed that you're going to win anyway: inconsiderate

Do you really think it's inconsiderate to maximize VP on your last turn? Maybe if you have an absurd KC or SP engine, but I generally try to buy, e.g. 3 colonies and the last card for the 3-pile, even if I'm already ahead. I certainly agree that dragging the game out any turns past the one where you could win is inconsiderate.

I agree that what you did was reasonable Jim, and his reaction was certainly inappropriate. I don't really understand people who decide to get mad and swear at other people on the internet. I generally assume good faith. If the turn is taking forever then just tab over or offer to resign or don't block the mountebank play.

[Voltaire]

I have no problem with people who run up the score on their last turn if they're correctly making it their last turn (ie if they have three Goons in play and buy the last curse for the 3-pile, I don't mind if they use their other 24 buys from KC-Workers Village or whatever on Coppers).

Also, always assume good faith on this sort of thing - sometimes people (including me) simply missed the three-pile. I try to politely point it out in chat if I'm on the losing end.

Of course this doesn't really relate to Jimmmmm's horrible situation.

[Kirian]

Jimmmmm wow
Jimmmmm thanks for blacklisting me btw, i really appreciate it
Jorgen When i say that, I don't mean just me. There's a community here that doesn't want to play people who play like you play. 4500+. Eat a sack of catpiss.
Jimmmmm what?

lolololol

I'm guessing he hasn't heard about the actual community over here??

[Awaclus]

Do you really think it's inconsiderate to maximize VP on your last turn? Maybe if you have an absurd KC or SP engine, but I generally try to buy, e.g. 3 colonies and the last card for the 3-pile, even if I'm already ahead. I certainly agree that dragging the game out any turns past the one where you could win is inconsiderate.

Yes. If buying the last Curse is all I need to win, I click End Actions and buy the Curse and that's it.

EDIT: Sometimes I might play some Actions to get more $ when I'm aiming for the last Province or something, even if I had enough coin tokens to buy it right away, because spending the tokens is so slow.

[Stealth Tomato]

I wasn't sure the best place to post this, so I thought here would be fine.

Just played a game against someone by the username Jorgen: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140304/log.516f307ae4b082c74d7def63.1393966935210.txt

If he wanted the game to end, he could have taken the last Curse instead of revealing the Moat every time. It's his fault the game even comes to that.

[Voltaire]

I forgot the Salvager update cleared my blacklist...being slow-rolled by someone who should be on it right now because I forgot to check the usernames.

Some day, this game will end...but that day does not seem to be soon.

**** this is retareded
**** lucky win for you
Voltaire the 5/2 split was definitely strong on this board

Hey, he started playing again...

(no name needed as he's been called out on here before...)

[popsofctown]

I like how when my game crashes Goko says "Internet connection lost", like the only conceivable way it could goof up is because I completely lost connection to the internet.
I also like how the error messages are super professional white text with no outline displayed over the kingdom cards. 

[ashersky]

I like how when my game crashes Goko says "Internet connection lost", like the only conceivable way it could goof up is because I completely lost connection to the internet.
I also like how the error messages are super professional white text with no outline displayed over the kingdom cards.

You and I were both just playing now, weren't we?

[popsofctown]

I can't remember the username I was up against.

[popsofctown]

The prosperity game with the Stewards and the Heralds and stuffs?

[popsofctown]

and Cartographer-herald.  That might just be one I completed recently I dunno

[ashersky]

I can't remember the username I was up against.

Not me, then.  I just meant we were both just playing now when the servers went down and the "Internet connection lost" message popped up with no background or border.

[LastFootnote]

I also like how the error messages are super professional white text with no outline displayed over the kingdom cards.

There's a dialog box around it. Back in the day, it was visible. Not sure what happened. The invisible "close" button still works, though. I think it's to the upper-right of the text.

[Witherweaver]

I am being slow-played RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT, as I live and breathe.

His Goko name is barry.

First he accused me of cheating, because I was making pretty good Wishing Well guesses. (I have two cards left in my deck, 2 of them are Copper, I guess Copper, and I am right... obviously I am cheating!)

I kindly explained to him how I was able to make pretty good (though well short of perfect) WW guesses. Well, now he is slow-playing me. Like, really really badly. Usually, people just give it up after like 2-3 turns of this, but he is absolutely committed to it.

I am loathe to give in to the Goko terrorists, so I guess I am going to play it out like this. I am so mad though.

How could you possibly be cheating with Wishing Well online?  Like you hacked Goko?  That's...

... well actually if any site were easily hackable, Goko would probably be it.

[AdamH]

Maximizing your VP when it's 100% guaranteed that you're going to win anyway: inconsiderate

I dunno, I think it's good practice. Do you want to know how many games I've lost because I miscounted the score? If I think I can just buy the last curse at the start of my turn and win yeah I'll probably do that, but if I'm not 100% positive of the exact score, I'm going to draw my deck and pile out Provinces instead if I can do that. This is obviously an extreme case but I don't think it's inconsiderate.

[silverspawn]

Maximizing your VP when it's 100% guaranteed that you're going to win anyway: inconsiderate

I dunno, I think it's good practice. Do you want to know how many games I've lost because I miscounted the score? If I think I can just buy the last curse at the start of my turn and win yeah I'll probably do that, but if I'm not 100% positive of the exact score, I'm going to draw my deck and pile out Provinces instead if I can do that. This is obviously an extreme case but I don't think it's inconsiderate.

it's definitely not inconsiderate, for the simple reason that you can resign any time you choose.

that said, why would you maximize your vp's? I always try to get exactly one more than my opponent if possible

[AdamH]

If I can, I try to get exactly 55 points, because 55 is my favorite number. I would consider ending a game on a loss if I knew I would get 55 points at the end of it.

[Witherweaver]

If I can, I try to get exactly 55 points, because 55 is my favorite number. I would consider ending a game on a loss if I knew I would get 55 points at the end of it.

Good thing -1 isn't your favorite number.

[qmech]

If I can, I try to get exactly 55 points, because 55 is my favorite number. I would consider ending a game on a loss if I knew I would get 55 points at the end of it.

Good thing -1 isn't your favorite number.

I might consider ending a game at -1VP if the opportunity came up.  Could save the rest of the evening.

[AdamH]

If I can, I try to get exactly 55 points, because 55 is my favorite number. I would consider ending a game on a loss if I knew I would get 55 points at the end of it.

Good thing -1 isn't your favorite number.

Thinking about the application of this in terms of why 55 is my favorite number is.. umm... unsanitary.

[Awaclus]

Maximizing your VP when it's 100% guaranteed that you're going to win anyway: inconsiderate

I dunno, I think it's good practice. Do you want to know how many games I've lost because I miscounted the score? If I think I can just buy the last curse at the start of my turn and win yeah I'll probably do that, but if I'm not 100% positive of the exact score, I'm going to draw my deck and pile out Provinces instead if I can do that. This is obviously an extreme case but I don't think it's inconsiderate.

Obviously if you don't have the VP counter on, then it's not 100% guaranteed that you're going to win, so it's not inconsiderate in that situation.

[soulnet]

If I can, I try to get exactly 55 points, because 55 is my favorite number. I would consider ending a game on a loss if I knew I would get 55 points at the end of it.

I hope we get paired in GokoDom and have a couple of Goons games.

[serakfalcon]

To be honest, I really like the feeling of getting several hundred points through bridge/Goons/alt VP. I hate it when someone quits before I can finish the megaturn--- at that point, it's not about them, it's about beating my previous records.  In the same vein, I'll let people crush me with megaturns just so they can have the satisfaction of pulling it off.

The only exceptions to these I have is tournament, KC-Masquerade pins, and bishop-fortress engines since all of those can take forever to end. And obviously I don't mind resigning if there's no mega-engine present.

Also I tend to resign later rather than sooner since there's been several games I've seen where the megaturn player lost by being derailed by a well-executed 3-pile that caught them a turn too soon.

[Jimmmmm]

I agree that it can feel like a let down when you don't get to play out the turn you've been building up to. I also think a player should have the right to resign when they choose to. I think the best solution is to have the option to continue the game by replacing the resigned player with a bot. It would especially help for 3+ player games.

[flies]

I think in general you should be able to resign at any time, and it can be annoying when you're getting crushed, but I also think that a megaturn type strategy is a fine thing when it goes off properly, and resigning in the middle of that turn is impolite and is, frankly, poor sportsmanship, since the game isn't about winning, but about having fun, and what's more fun than a HoP/Bridge explosion?

[GeoLib]

I agree that it can feel like a let down when you don't get to play out the turn you've been building up to. I also think a player should have the right to resign when they choose to. I think the best solution is to have the option to continue the game by replacing the resigned player with a bot. It would especially help for 3+ player games.

I like this solution a lot and have complete confidence that any attempt by Goko to implement it would be disastrous.

[LastFootnote]

I think in general you should be able to resign at any time, and it can be annoying when you're getting crushed, but I also think that a megaturn type strategy is a fine thing when it goes off properly, and resigning in the middle of that turn is impolite and is, frankly, poor sportsmanship, since the game isn't about winning, but about having fun, and what's more fun than a HoP/Bridge explosion?

The question is, what's less fun than sitting through somebody else's HoP/Bridge explosion?





THIS IS A RHETORICAL QUESTION. YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESPOND WITH ONE OF THE MYRIAD THINGS THAT IS LESS FUN, e.g. GETTING HIT IN THE TEETH WITH A BASEBALL BAT.

[Witherweaver]

I think in general you should be able to resign at any time, and it can be annoying when you're getting crushed, but I also think that a megaturn type strategy is a fine thing when it goes off properly, and resigning in the middle of that turn is impolite and is, frankly, poor sportsmanship, since the game isn't about winning, but about having fun, and what's more fun than a HoP/Bridge explosion?

The question is, what's less fun than sitting through somebody else's HoP/Bridge explosion?





THIS IS A RHETORICAL QUESTION. YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESPOND WITH ONE OF THE MYRIAD THINGS THAT IS LESS FUN, e.g. GETTING HIT IN THE TEETH WITH A BASEBALL BAT.

Sitting through it with Goko lag.

[silverspawn]

I think in general you should be able to resign at any time, and it can be annoying when you're getting crushed, but I also think that a megaturn type strategy is a fine thing when it goes off properly, and resigning in the middle of that turn is impolite and is, frankly, poor sportsmanship, since the game isn't about winning, but about having fun, and what's more fun than a HoP/Bridge explosion?

i compltetely disagree. Generally, I think not doing something is almost never bm. There are exceptions to this: when you create a game, it's bm to leave it open forever, when you join a game, it's bm to take forever with your turns. Aside from that though, you're not obligated to do anything, and you're certainly not obligated to watch his megaturn go off. You can consider it poor sportsmanship if you want, but that's kind of narrow minded. The game may be about having fun for you, but it can be about winning for someone else. He might not want to watch your megaturn because you haven't build it properly, and he knows he could do it better if he'd just gotten the right draws. Or maybe he just considers it a waste of time.

[Kirian]

I think in general you should be able to resign at any time, and it can be annoying when you're getting crushed, but I also think that a megaturn type strategy is a fine thing when it goes off properly, and resigning in the middle of that turn is impolite and is, frankly, poor sportsmanship, since the game isn't about winning, but about having fun, and what's more fun than a HoP/Bridge explosion?

The question is, what's less fun than sitting through somebody else's HoP/Bridge explosion?





THIS IS A RHETORICAL QUESTION. YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESPOND WITH ONE OF THE MYRIAD THINGS THAT IS LESS FUN, e.g. GETTING HIT IN THE TEETH WITH A BASEBALL BAT.

Getting hit in the teeth by someone else's HOP/Bridge explosion.

[Robz888]

I think in general you should be able to resign at any time, and it can be annoying when you're getting crushed, but I also think that a megaturn type strategy is a fine thing when it goes off properly, and resigning in the middle of that turn is impolite and is, frankly, poor sportsmanship, since the game isn't about winning, but about having fun, and what's more fun than a HoP/Bridge explosion?

The question is, what's less fun than sitting through somebody else's HoP/Bridge explosion?

Being on the bridge during the explosion.

[flies]

I think in general you should be able to resign at any time, and it can be annoying when you're getting crushed, but I also think that a megaturn type strategy is a fine thing when it goes off properly, and resigning in the middle of that turn is impolite and is, frankly, poor sportsmanship, since the game isn't about winning, but about having fun, and what's more fun than a HoP/Bridge explosion?

The question is, what's less fun than sitting through somebody else's HoP/Bridge explosion?

Playing a rebuild mirror. 

The fun part of dominion is seeing the cards come together.  It's more fun when they're your cards, but still.  It's not so bad for you to wait, and it's lots of fun for the other player, so it's sporting for you to hold off on resigning.  Within reason. 

[GeoLib]

I would say it's nice to let them play out their last turn, and I generally try to because I appreciate it when other people do this for me. I wouldn't say it is rude to resign however. You can resign whenever you want (in a 2P game).

[2.71828.....]

On finishing the last turn:

If stats were still being collected for Council Room, it would be very inconsiderate to resign before the end.  (along the lines of what serakfalcon said)

Since stats are not being collected for Council Room, I don't think it really matters, but I think it is more courteous to let the opponent finish the turn.  Personally, if I know I am well behind, I might resign early on in the game (although I rarely resign).  If I am close enough that it got down to a final turn, I will always let my opponent finish that turn. 

[popsofctown]

CLLOXIN: Yo mama's so fat, if you discard her with cellar, you draw your whole deck.

Just because i won a curse split

[clantosa]

snooze fest i guess the system should have something in which it marks down the average time each turn is taking and once a certain number is reached it should auto kick the player. Or just auto kick if the system realizes this player is being consistently slow

[KingZog3]

snooze fest i guess the system should have something in which it marks down the average time each turn is taking and once a certain number is reached it should auto kick the player. Or just auto kick if the system realizes this player is being consistently slow

The problem with that is what if the person is legitimately thinking? There are many games with a tricky end-game situation where you have to tread carefully with every buy. I've thought, and seen other people, think for a good 5 minutes about what to buy. And not just on one turn.

[clantosa]

snooze fest i guess the system should have something in which it marks down the average time each turn is taking and once a certain number is reached it should auto kick the player. Or just auto kick if the system realizes this player is being consistently slow

The problem with that is what if the person is legitimately thinking? There are many games with a tricky end-game situation where you have to tread carefully with every buy. I've thought, and seen other people, think for a good 5 minutes about what to buy. And not just on one turn.

well i mean if they do it once in awhile late game and if they post something saying hang on then its fine but i mean there should be no reason why your consistently spending 5min per turn over say like 5 turns thats already is 25min thats kind of ridiculous dont you think?

[LastFootnote]

Some games have a system whereby instead of resetting the timeout every time a player makes a decision, it keeps a running clock and every time a player makes a decision, it just adds a small amount of time to the clock. So perhaps if the clock started at 5 minutes, but only added, say, 30 seconds for most decisions.

EDIT: No, even that's too much. 10 seconds? And you can't ever bank more than 5 minutes.

[KingZog3]

Some games have a system whereby instead of resetting the timeout every time a player makes a decision, it keeps a running clock and every time a player makes a decision, it just adds a small amount of time to the clock. So perhaps if the clock started at 5 minutes, but only added, say, 30 seconds for most decisions.

EDIT: No, even that's too much. 10 seconds? And you can't ever bank more than 5 minutes.

Hearthstone actually did this very well. You only have X time for a turn. If you run out, you will only have 10-15 seconds on your next turn to make a move. Then you return to full turn time. This way if you want to slow play, you can only make the person wait so long because you will eventually run out of time anyway.

[JW]

I just went on here and searched tgorm just to see if anyone else had been slow rolled by him - lo and behold, I wasn't the only one!  Also saw another guy in the chat room complaining about him slow playing after he was obviously beat later on that day.

Nobody needs to hear the specifics (he thought I was getting lucky, he made some bad choices at the beginning which contributed to him being unlucky, he curses, then the slow plays.....).

Anyway, for anyone still looking at this thread - tgorm.  Don't play him.  Honestly, do yourself a favor and don't do it.

I just played tgorm.  What a nightmare.  He got a 2/5 he didn't like, so he started complaining about it and then started calling me names and to "sit and wait like a bitch".  I never even said anything.  All this because he didn't like his 2/5.  I blacklisted him with the extension, but oh my god what a psycho.

I'm currently being slow played by tgorm because he said I was playing too slow (and I'm beating him, which is probably the real reason he's mad). Time to start using the Salvager extension auto black list the worst 10% after this game. And him, of course. Haven't had an experience this bad yet, which is why I wasn't using the auto black list.

Edit- after about 25 minutes of him discarding one card every few minutes to Warehouse, he quit. Victory for the forces of good.

[KingZog3]

I just went on here and searched tgorm just to see if anyone else had been slow rolled by him - lo and behold, I wasn't the only one!  Also saw another guy in the chat room complaining about him slow playing after he was obviously beat later on that day.

Nobody needs to hear the specifics (he thought I was getting lucky, he made some bad choices at the beginning which contributed to him being unlucky, he curses, then the slow plays.....).

Anyway, for anyone still looking at this thread - tgorm.  Don't play him.  Honestly, do yourself a favor and don't do it.

I'm currently being slow played by tgorm because he said I was playing too slow (and I'm beating him, which is probably the real reason he's mad). Time to start using the Salvager extension auto black list the worst 10% after this game. And him, of course. Haven't had an experience this bad yet, which is why I wasn't using the auto black list.

Edit- after about 25 minutes of him discarding one card every few minutes to Warehouse, he quit. Victory for the forces of good.

Interesting. I've played tgorm with nor problems before. I did get slow played once though, at 2am. I just put on music and got myself a drink to wait it out.

I just played tgorm.  What a nightmare.  He got a 2/5 he didn't like, so he started complaining about it and then started calling me names and to "sit and wait like a bitch".  I never even said anything.  All this because he didn't like his 2/5.  I blacklisted him with the extension, but oh my god what a psycho.

[Awaclus]

Are there any people who tried rickrolling the slow player in the chat with no success?

[soulnet]

Are there any people who tried rickrolling the slow player in the chat with no success?

If the slowroller has the extension, the rickroller is not going to really harm it.

[Kirian]

Are there any people who tried rickrolling the slow player in the chat with no success?

If the slowroller has the extension, the rickroller is not going to really harm it.

So if they have the extension, rickrolling them is just going to let you down and make you cry?

[Awaclus]

Are there any people who tried rickrolling the slow player in the chat with no success?

Yeah, I accidentally joined tgorm's game and it didn't work. But I had my vengeance! I offensive-gg'd him!

Luckily for me, he still kept emptying the relevant piles.

[ragingduckd]

Are there any people who tried rickrolling the slow player in the chat with no success?

Yeah, I accidentally joined tgorm's game and it didn't work. But I had my vengeance! I offensive-gg'd him!

Luckily for me, he still kept emptying the relevant piles.

Hmm... if you have him on your blacklist with "censor" checked, his games should be invisible.  Was that not working or have you not blacklisted him?

Fun fact: 9% of all blacklist entries are tgorm

[Awaclus]

Are there any people who tried rickrolling the slow player in the chat with no success?

Yeah, I accidentally joined tgorm's game and it didn't work. But I had my vengeance! I offensive-gg'd him!

Luckily for me, he still kept emptying the relevant piles.

Hmm... if you have him on your blacklist with "censor" checked, his games should be invisible.  Was that not working or have you not blacklisted him?

Fun fact: 9% of all blacklist entries are tgorm

I was at school, he wasn't blacklisted here. Now he is.

[blueblimp]

Some games have a system whereby instead of resetting the timeout every time a player makes a decision, it keeps a running clock and every time a player makes a decision, it just adds a small amount of time to the clock. So perhaps if the clock started at 5 minutes, but only added, say, 30 seconds for most decisions.

EDIT: No, even that's too much. 10 seconds? And you can't ever bank more than 5 minutes.

Hearthstone actually did this very well. You only have X time for a turn. If you run out, you will only have 10-15 seconds on your next turn to make a move. Then you return to full turn time. This way if you want to slow play, you can only make the person wait so long because you will eventually run out of time anyway.

Hearthstone's system works okay for Hearthstone (though it's not perfect, since it allows too much time for early turns), but for Dominion it would be a disaster. There's way too much variance in how long turns take. Like LastFootnote proposes, some capped cumulative combination of time-per-turn and time-per-action is probably the right way to go for Dominion.

[KingZog3]

Some games have a system whereby instead of resetting the timeout every time a player makes a decision, it keeps a running clock and every time a player makes a decision, it just adds a small amount of time to the clock. So perhaps if the clock started at 5 minutes, but only added, say, 30 seconds for most decisions.

EDIT: No, even that's too much. 10 seconds? And you can't ever bank more than 5 minutes.

Hearthstone actually did this very well. You only have X time for a turn. If you run out, you will only have 10-15 seconds on your next turn to make a move. Then you return to full turn time. This way if you want to slow play, you can only make the person wait so long because you will eventually run out of time anyway.

Hearthstone's system works okay for Hearthstone (though it's not perfect, since it allows too much time for early turns), but for Dominion it would be a disaster. There's way too much variance in how long turns take. Like LastFootnote proposes, some capped cumulative combination of time-per-turn and time-per-action is probably the right way to go for Dominion.

Yeah, of course it wouldn't work for Dominion. It's a hard problem to deal with. The combo-cumulative cap sounds good.

[Jack Rudd]

Fun fact: 9% of all blacklist entries are tgorm

That sounds like the 40% Football Forum, although that got even more extreme: last time the stat was posted, 95% of all blacklist entries were Davros.

[Kirian]

Fun fact: 9% of all blacklist entries are tgorm

That sounds like the 40% Football Forum, although that got even more extreme: last time the stat was posted, 95% of all blacklist entries were Davros.

Most reasonable people are going to blacklist him anyway.  Do you really want to play Dominion against the creator of the Daleks?