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Qvist

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The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« on: July 16, 2012, 10:10:59 am »
+6

The Best $4 Cards - Part 1/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#43 ▼1 Scout (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 42.43 ▼3.31 / Median: 43 ▼4.5 / Mode: 43 ▼6 / Standard Deviation: 1.6 ▲3.7
Highest Rank(s): #34 (1x), #37 (1x), #38 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (37x)

Scout is the worst $4 card. Even though it wasn't last the last time, there's no surprise here. With very few outliers and more than the half voting it last, its deviation is by far the lowest of all $4 cards. The discussions about this card in the last months exposed its weakness.

Scout has its uses. You don't need to spend an action, but it isn't a cantrip, so it really can hurt your deck. If you're massively greening this can be nice as it makes your next turn better, but is still not good. The best uses are: making Crossroads way better, it has a nice synergy with Wishing Well (making it a cheap Lab) and of course it's great with dual-type-victory cards like Harem, Great Hall and Nobles, making Scout a Lab or even better. There might be more edge cases when Scout shines, but even when it shines you often do better skipping Scout, because you waste a turn marginally improving your deck.
#42 ▲1 Thief (Base) Weighted Average: 41.32 ▼0.1 / Median: 42 =0 / Mode: 42 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 2.4 =0
Highest Rank(s): #30 (1x), #33 (1x), #34 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (16x)

Thief went up a rank, but the points nearly stayed the same. So, Thief is still as bad as before. And there's no doubt. It has the second lowest deviation as it was voted last or second last by a third of all players.

An attack on such a low position may seem strange, but Thief has the big problem helping your opponent in the early game. Its a free trasher for your opponent and even later it's so risky hitting the Coppers of your opponent. Its only use may be in thin Chapel decks or if you manage to play it multiple times per turn. And it gets better in 3- or 4-player games, where you can minimize the risk of getting nothing and hitting Coppers. It can be a nice counter against a Ill-Gotten-Gains rush dealing out curses with it and got a boost in Hinterlands because of Fool's Gold too, but it is still swingy and still a bad card. You don't want it early and in the later game it's almost never worth a buy.
#41 =0 Coppersmith (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 39.14 ▼0.87 / Median: 40 ▼1 / Mode: 41 =0 / Standard Deviation: 3.7 ▲2.5
Highest Rank(s): #22 (1x), #24 (1x), #31 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (4x)

Coppersmith is the third last card with 18 players ranking it there. It has a really low deviation with a much higher consensus this time and yet it has two big outliers. It has a big lead over Thief and Scout, but it still lost nearly one point.

Yes, Coppersmith is very hard to rank, because it's either clearly the worst card on the board or it's very dominating. As a opener you may get to $6 or even $8, but you also can draw only one Copper, so it's very swingy as a opener and gets worse later. On the other hand King's Court + Coppersmith can become brutal and it has some nice synergy with Apothecary, Counting House and Tactician. The cases where it shines may occur more rarely than with any other card, but then it's a must-buy.
#40 =0 Talisman (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 37.00 ▲0.84 / Median: 37 ▲1.5 / Mode: 36 ▲4 / Standard Deviation: 4.7 ▼0.5
Highest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #17 (1x), #29 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (5x)

Talisman has still a low deviation and another big lead over the previous card. No-one ranked it last, but 5 people ranked it second last and 10 people ranked it on #36. The much higher mode and the two big outliers led to an increase of nearly one point, but it is still on the same rank.

There are very few cards for $4, you want in masses. Silk Road and Gardens may be a exception, but Talisman doesn't work with victory cards. So there are even less cards you want for free with Talisman. Fool's Gold, Caravan and in some cases Throne Room, Conspirator and Tournament came to my mind being the only cards which makes Talisman a good buy, especially as a opener. You can build a Village + Smithy/Envoy quicker too, but this is rarely worth a Talisman buy since you need money too. But it shines especially with cost reducers like Quarry, Bridge and especially Highway. Play Highway, play Talisman, buy Highway, get one for free, that's nice. Talisman is also nice for a quick 3-pile ending. This works well with Bishop for example: get many Talismans and then Bishops, trash Talismans for 3VP and try to three-pile. But Talisman also can hurt very badly since the free extra card is not optional, so only buy Talisman if you really want cheap card in masses. And don't forget: if you're buying more expensive cards you've spent $4 for a Copper.
#39 ▼6 Spy (Base) Weighted Average: 36.24 ▼4.07 / Median: 37 ▼5 / Mode: 38 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 3.6 ▲3.1
Highest Rank(s): #27 (1x), #29 (1x), #30 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (2x), #43 (1x)

What a big drop! We're now in a region where all the cards are really close together, but it still lost 4 points and the consensus is much higher this time, it has even the third least deviation. It was 12 times on #38 and this time had really no big outliers.

An attack that is a cantrip, that seems nice at the first look. But Spy is an attack with a pretty bad attack and little benefit. It's very swingy as you can discard your victory card (or even your Tunnel) and discard the only Witch of your opponent, but you can hit a victory card of your opponent too that you put back. That's no change for your opponent and he even may use that additional info for the next turn. You can add a Spy in your drawing engine if you have a buy and money left, but is really rarely worth a buy. It's a cantrip that doesn't hurt your engine and can really shine in a Scrying Pool+Jester engine (or any other engine that takes profit from knowing the top card of the opponent's deck), but the benefit it gives you is marginal, similar to Scout. If we already mentioned cards with different costs (Warehouse and Cellar), the way better Cartographer comes into my mind.
#38 ▼6 Treasure Map (Seaside) Weighted Average: 35.35 ▼3.78 / Median: 36 ▼4.5 / Mode: 33 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 6.5 ▲2.3
Highest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #14 (1x), #18 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (3x), #40 (1x), #42 (1x)

Another big drop of 6 ranks and nearly 4 points. The standard deviation is now higher, but still the consensus is much higher compared to last time. Treasure Map was on #33 11 times and has a few big outliers. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #37; newer players ranked it higher.

Treasure Map's power is undeniable. An early enabling can already decide a game. But you can hardly call it strategy going for Treasure Map. You really need enablers for that, like Warehouse, Chapel, Tactician or the Watchtower/Talisman combo. If you go for Treasure Map without such enablers, you totally rely on your luck. And losing against a totally luck-based enabling can really be frustrating.
#37 ▼3 Pirate Ship (Seaside) Weighted Average: 35.28 ▼2.57 / Median: 36 ▼3 / Mode: 40 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 7.5 ▲1.1
Highest Rank(s): #5 (2x), #22 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (3x)

Pirate Ship is only 0.07 points higher than Treasure Map and has an even higher deviation, but still gains consensus and there will be more cards with much higher deviation. It wasn't even last and got two big outliers on #5, but got many bad ranks with 8 votes on #40. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #36, so this is another card that newer players seem to rank higher.

There's the next attack that trashes treasures. This time it's not the best one anymore. The high ranks may result from players mainly playing 3- or 4-player games where Pirate Ships can be devastating. In 2-player games it's too slow most of the times. So, with Pirate Ship you really want to buy as many as you can, so you can play them multiple times, and with Throne Room or King's Court this card is really great.
#36 ▲1 Navigator (Seaside) Weighted Average: 35.18 ▼0.62 / Median: 36 ▼1 / Mode: 40 ▼8 / Standard Deviation: 4.8 ▲0.9
Highest Rank(s): #18 (1x), #19 (1x), #26 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #42 (2x), #43 (2x)

Navigator went up a rank, but still lost points. It was a very close fight for #36 with a lead of 0.10 points over Pirate Ship and 0.17 points over Treasure Map. It has also 2 last places and there's only one card with at least one last place left. It has relatively high consensus and it was voted 8 times on #40. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #38; newer players seem to underrate it.

Scout is at least non-terminal and therefore nice for Wishing Well to draw the top-decked cards. Top-decking the next 5 cards in a specific order is only nice if you have still an action left to draw a few of them. Because if you don't do that, you draw all 5 cards no matter in what order you put them back. The discarding option is nice to minimize shuffle luck and to get a half Chancellor effect, but still it is terminal and most of the time there are better terminal cards on the board. At least it gives you $2. The best use still may be to enable Tunnel's reaction.
#35 ▼4 Feast (Base) Weighted Average: 34.00 ▼3.75 / Median: 35 ▼3.5 / Mode: 36 =0 / Standard Deviation: 5.6 ▲2.6
Highest Rank(s): #13 (1x), #20 (1x), #23 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (3x)

Feast is another card with a big drop. It lost 4 ranks and nearly 4 points too. It's the next card with a much higher consensus this time with only one outlier. It's the first card which wasn't neither last nor second last. In the unweighted ranking this would be on #34, another card that newer players seem to overrate a little bit.

Feast basically does nothing but being a one-shot balancing bad shuffle luck, especially at the start. If you really want a specific $5 card and have a 4/3 opening you can open with Feast and can be sure to get that $5 card soon. It also can be used with Throne Room and King's Court to gain multiple $5 cards. It's only other use is gaining Duchies, especially in Duke games.
#34 ▲5 Bureaucrat (Base) Weighted Average: 33.77 ▲1.98 / Median: 34 ▲3 / Mode: 34 ▲5 / Standard Deviation: 6.2 ▼0.9
Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #16 (1x), #18 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #43 (3x)

It was very close, but Bureaucrat is better than Feast. It went up 5 ranks and 2 points, but is one of the first cards with higher deviation too. Last time it hadn't one vote above #20, now it has 3 votes. On the other side it's the last card with a last place; it has even 3 last places. It was voted on #34 7 times. In the unweighted ranking this card would be on #35, it's underrated by newer players.

The attack of Bureaucrat is weak. Your opponent loses one card that he don't need anyway for him getting another 4 card hand in the next turn. And he might even be able to counter that easily by playing Farming Village for example. The attack gets better in multiplayer games, especially if there are dual-type victory cards like Nobles or Harem on the board. The benefit on the other side still isn't good either. Top-decked silvers are nice, especially in the beginning and you can get to $8 with 4 silvers too, but it's not easy. So it seems Bureaucrat is nice where you don't want to get to $8 and Silver is a good card, like in Duke / Silk Road and especially Gardens games, but then Bureaucrat is a good counter too. And you can play your Bureaucrat less frequently if your deck is already flooded with silvers. Bureacrat + Big Money is not bad on the other side as it doesn't seem to have synergies with other cards.
#33 ▲3 Nomad Camp (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 33.38 ▲0.54 / Median: 34 ▼0.5 / Mode: 35 ▼3 / Standard Deviation: 4.7 ▲0.6
Highest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #22 (1x), #25 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #40 (5x)

Nomad Camp is the first card which wasn't voted in the Bottom 3 with 5 votes on #40. It only has a slightly better average, but still managed to go up 3 ranks. It was voted on #35 10 times.

Woodcutter was the third worst $3 card. Here we have a Woodcutter with a on-buy top-deck ability. Is it worth costing $1 more? And how can it be that it ranks higher than Woodcutter? IMO there are only 2-3 reasons for that. You have a high chance to get a $5 card on turn 2 even with a 4/3 opening (so Witch / Monad Camp is on #86 and Nomad Camp / Trading Post at #91 of the best openings). Similar to that it is nice you need the +Buy either way and need multiple cheap cards as fast you can. But the only opening which is strong without $5s is IMO Nomad Camp / Fool's Gold / Fool's Gold on #339 of the best openings. The last reason is if you're really unlucky in the late game and only get $4 and want to maximize the chances to hit $8 in the next turn. Beside of that it's only an expensive Woodcutter.
#32 ▲3 Walled Village (Promo) Weighted Average: 30.30 ▲2.56 / Median: 31 ▲1.5 / Mode: 29 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 6.1  ▼1.4
Highest Rank(s): #17 (2x), #18 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #39 (2x), #41 (2x)

A big jump of over 3 points and Walled Village seems to leave the "really bad cards area". It went up 3 ranks and also two and a half points. But it also loses consensus with a much higher deviation this time. It was on #29 8 times. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #31.

It is the worst of the four $4 villages. Why? Its only ability is top deck it if you weren't able to use both actions. So this is nice if you have only 2-3 terminal actions and really want to play them each time without taking the risk of colliding. That's especially useful with Torturer. The only reason opening with Walled Village could be if there's a $3 key card and you want a second one later too. Because of that Walled Village / Masquerade and Walled Village / Ambassador are Level 4 openings rankings on #87 ▲4 and #95 ▲19 on Councilroom respectively. In all other cases it is the same as the normal village.
#31 ▲7 Noble Brigand (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 30.19 ▲5.52 / Median: 31 ▲5.5 / Mode: 29 ▲11 / Standard Deviation: 6.1 ▼0.5
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #11 (1x), #16 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #41 (2x), #42 (1x)

It was close, but Noble Brigand is better than Walled Village. And it's another Hinterlands card with a huge boost. It went up 7 ranks and 5.5 points. The mode is even 11 points better (8 times on #29). Not all players noticed the boost in power, so the deviation went up a little bit. In the unweighted ranking it would be on #32.

Noble Brigand is the better Thief on many boards. It hasn't the disadvantage of trashing the opponents Coppers, making it a better opener. It even attacks on-buy. It deals out Coppers too, which is nice playing against no-treasure decks. And it gives $1 too, so you have at least an immediate benefit. But it's worse in Colony games as it cannot steal Platinum, it cannot steal Ill-Gotten-Gains like Thief and cannot steal other Kingdom treasure cards. And most important: it's still too slow and doesn't hurt enough if you can't play one nearly each turn. Noble Brigand + Big Money is not that bad on weak boards and a good counter to many strategies.
#30 ▼1 Remodel (Base) Weighted Average: 28.16 ▼3.08 / Median: 29 ▼6 / Mode: 32 ▼10 / Standard Deviation: 6.4 ▲2.7
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #12 (1x), #13 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (2x), #37 (1x), #39 (1x)

Remodel is the next card with a much higher consensus this time. It has still a solid lead over Walled Village, but it loses 3 points and even 10 points in mode. After Remodel is the biggest gap in this list, so I included it in the bottom third.

Remodel introduced us to the cards that trash for a better card. As a opener it has big problems trashing the Coppers, because you need either good $2 cards on the board you want in masses like Fool's Gold (Remodel / Fool's Gold is on #168 of the best openings) or Lighthouse or you need to remodel in 2 steps (Estate to Silver or another $3-$4 card) which is not really a good idea. But Remodel is good in the later game. Just remodel your money in the respective victory card. It seems some of you take the opener qualities more into account while others did it vice versa.

To the second part
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 03:48:22 pm by Qvist »
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shark_bait

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2012, 10:20:43 am »
+3

Just sayin', but Noble Brigand is way too low.  IMO, a BM strategy with the Brigand will almost always beat one without one.  The on purchase effect just makes it such a powerful card.
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brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2012, 10:22:38 am »
0

The big drop of feast surprises me, and I don't think it is that bad, but it is a hard card to rank...
Quote from: Qvist
another card that newer players seem to overrate a little bit.
I have the opposite impression. I completely ignored feast when I started Dominion.

Other disagreements : I think coppersmith is slightly underrated, and Walled village & Navigator slightly overrated. I haven't played a lot of games with noble brigand yet, but don't think it is that good compared to thief. I have to pay more attention to this card...
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2012, 10:50:03 am »
+2

Feast is just terrible. I may have been one of those 41s. Compare feast to, say, horse traders, which may as well read, "+1 buy. Don't trash this card. Gain a card costing up to 5. Or do other cool things, your choice. Oh, by the way, sweet reaction if there's attacks." Now, feast has its uses (it's no scout), and it goes well with king's court, but it's a bad card.
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Tables

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2012, 11:06:07 am »
0

I have two big disagreements on this list. First is Noble Brigand, which shark bait already nailed. Noble Brigand + Big Money is not 'not that bad'. It's one of the best $4 Big Money enablers, especially against other BM decks. The fact it gives +$1 also helps, as it's not just a meh attack.

The second is Bureaucrat. I had it second bottom. Can someone please tell me the kind of deck that benefits from Bureaucrat, and why they're common enough and boosted enough by Bureaucrat, that it should be above... just about everything it is except Scout? It's not good in engines - if you're running an engine, there's a good chance your opponent is too, so the attack is probably doing very little, and the Silver on deck isn't really helpful. Big Money? It's too slow. It's a BM enabler, but not an especially good one (pre-edit: I see it actually beats BMU something like 60/30, which is better than I imagined). Honestly, it just seems to never really fit into a deck.

The only other big-ish disagreements I had were Treasure Map (it's very good if you can enable it, and those situations are less rare than many people imagine. Yes it's awful on most boards, but it's great on some), and to a lesser degree Thief and Pirate Ship - because they're good in 3+ player.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
I hereby declare myself the best dominion player in the world. Obviously.

brokoli

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 11:28:48 am »
0

Feast is just terrible. I may have been one of those 41s. Compare feast to, say, horse traders, which may as well read, "+1 buy. Don't trash this card. Gain a card costing up to 5. Or do other cool things, your choice. Oh, by the way, sweet reaction if there's attacks." Now, feast has its uses (it's no scout), and it goes well with king's court, but it's a bad card.
Of course, Horse traders is a very good card. But unlike feast, HT gain a 5$ card in your buy phase. With Feast, you may buy a $2/$3/$4 during your buy phase and gain a 5$ with feast.

And really, it is much better than walled village or nomad camp...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:29:55 am by brokoli »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2012, 11:32:16 am »
0

The fact that people ranked Noble Brigand over Walled Village absolutely blows my mind.  Like, that is just utterly inconceivable to me.  I know people have been trying to rehabilitate it, and I have at least come around to it being better than Pirate Ship... but it's still a really bad card most of the time.  Nothing-better-than-Village for $4 is way more useful.

I had almost all the same cards in this group- the only difference was I had Trader down here instead of Walled Village, and that barely missed the cut at #29- but I really disagree with some of the rankings within this group:

* I guess I can't complain too much about Scout being last rather than Thief, but yeah I still think Thief is the worst.  I just don't think it's possible for any non-terminal, no matter how weak and marginal (and Scout is for sure the weakest non-terminal around), to approach the depths of badness that the worst terminals do.

* Coppersmith is underrated.  I think a lot of people have gotten to the point where they realize it's a bad opener, and once you see the value of trashing it's easy to see the uselessness of Coppersmith in most setups.  But perhaps a lot of people haven't seen that Coppersmith is actually a really, really good source of money in +Action/+Card draw-your-deck engines.  It's a narrow card, so it belongs in this group, but it can be powerful, so it deserves better than third-from-last.  I had it at #37.

* I had Spy higher, all the way up at #31.  As with Scout, non-terminals are just too generally useful.  Spy is never the star, but there are a whole host of engine decks where I'm happy to pick a few up (Goons and Conspirator support are among my favorite reasons to grab Spy).  Can't be too upset that Spy was lower than I had it- I expected that- but I am pretty shocked it fell below Treasure Map and Pirate Ship if nothing else.

* Oh, yeah, Treasure Map and Pirate Ship.  They suck.  They suck really really horribly.  I guess they're not actually too far off my ranking, they just seem like it because they're above Spy and that's just wrong.

* And of course I had Noble Brigand much lower.  I had it all the way down at #39, which probably was a couple spots too low.  Probably should have swapped it and Treasure Map (which was my #38).  I do now realize that it's a strong buy for the second player on Turn 1 if Player 1 got a Silver and the board leans Bog Money, but that's a lot of ifs.  It's hard for me to take it over other terminals even on BM boards, since when I try to go Brigand I ALWAYS ALWAYS lose.  Ugh, I really dislike this card.
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2012, 11:34:15 am »
+1

The second is Bureaucrat. I had it second bottom. Can someone please tell me the kind of deck that benefits from Bureaucrat, and why they're common enough and boosted enough by Bureaucrat, that it should be above... just about everything it is except Scout? It's not good in engines - if you're running an engine, there's a good chance your opponent is too, so the attack is probably doing very little, and the Silver on deck isn't really helpful. Big Money? It's too slow. It's a BM enabler, but not an especially good one (pre-edit: I see it actually beats BMU something like 60/30, which is better than I imagined). Honestly, it just seems to never really fit into a deck.
Just everything where you really want Silvers. Gardens, Silk Roads, Dukes for first. Cursers without trashing second. There are not many cards that gain you Silver, so usually there is no alternative for this functions on these boards. And you gain it on top, which is nice especially in bloated decks, and a little attack as bonus.

Bureaucrat is my best "Win rate with" (1.7). It's gained in only 15% of the games, but in these niche it does what it should, and it does it quite well. Yeah, if I could have a Jack instead I would usually take it over Bureaucrat, but you don't have a Jack every game.

Edit: My much liked Bureaucrat from the last times here.
YW, no trashing, XR bane with Great Halls. We would spend all the game with them low-cost cards, having ugly decks. You want to spend $3 on GH, but you also want some money. So here he comes. And he attacks the XR.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:39:20 am by DStu »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 11:38:06 am »
0

So far so good. Everything is within 4 spots of my list except Walled Village, which I have 7 spots higher. We'll see where the other villages fall, but I do recall last time that for some mysterious reason Walled Village was rated significantly worse than Farming Village despite serving practically the same purpose most of the time.

Regarding Feast, it's not that it's terrible to have a Feast, it's that most of the time it makes minimal impact. There are a reasonable number of situations where it's better than Silver, but outside of price manipulation strategies, it's never that much better than Silver.

Regarding Bureaucrat, while you can argue that it's rarely useful, you can say the same thing about all the cards below it except maybe Navigator and Treasure Map, so it's not that mis-rated.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:41:49 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 11:40:13 am »
0

I have two big disagreements on this list. First is Noble Brigand, which shark bait already nailed. Noble Brigand + Big Money is not 'not that bad'. It's one of the best $4 Big Money enablers, especially against other BM decks. The fact it gives +$1 also helps, as it's not just a meh attack.

The second is Bureaucrat. I had it second bottom. Can someone please tell me the kind of deck that benefits from Bureaucrat, and why they're common enough and boosted enough by Bureaucrat, that it should be above... just about everything it is except Scout? It's not good in engines - if you're running an engine, there's a good chance your opponent is too, so the attack is probably doing very little, and the Silver on deck isn't really helpful. Big Money? It's too slow. It's a BM enabler, but not an especially good one (pre-edit: I see it actually beats BMU something like 60/30, which is better than I imagined). Honestly, it just seems to never really fit into a deck.

The only other big-ish disagreements I had were Treasure Map (it's very good if you can enable it, and those situations are less rare than many people imagine. Yes it's awful on most boards, but it's great on some), and to a lesser degree Thief and Pirate Ship - because they're good in 3+ player.

Wow, I am the complete polar opposite of this.

As for when the B-crat is good: It's most consistently strong with Gardens, Dukes, and Silk Roads.  B-crat/Gardens is not going to beat an Ironworks rush, but it is actually quite good at playing a longer Gardens game that soaks up a few Duchies and Provinces, too. 

Sometimes it can fit into other decks, too.  It's a mediocre BM enabler, but it's far from the worst.  And then there's this game, which is one of my all-time favorites: http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111116-123304-8afe13dc.html
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 12:09:59 pm »
0

I think people underestimate the easy "buy a couple bureaucrats, green obscenely early" strategy. It's not great, but it's an OK big money strategy in a pinch. With something like duchess or silk road on the board and nothing "good," it's probably better than envoy + big money? Don't quote me...
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 12:10:55 pm »
+9

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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 12:19:40 pm »
0

I think people underestimate the easy "buy a couple bureaucrats, green obscenely early" strategy. It's not great, but it's an OK big money strategy in a pinch. With something like duchess or silk road on the board and nothing "good," it's probably better than envoy + big money? Don't quote me...

Bureaucrat/Silk Road is fairly widely recognized as a strong strategy.  I am happy to play that against most BM decks and even some engines.

Bureaucrat/Duchess... is something I'd have to see in action before I'm convinced it's any good.
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2012, 12:43:26 pm »
+1

Assuming both ehunt and chwhite are mixing up Duchess and Duke? Color me confused otherwise.
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 12:53:46 pm »
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Nope. I meant duchess. I think bureaucrat is OK with duke, but not great. Too many bureaucrat silver copper copper duchy hands.
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 12:57:11 pm »
0

I guess someone needs to explain Bureaucrat/Duchess to me then, because I'm not seeing how that strategy is even intended to work, never mind how it would actually come close to being decent. Buy lots of Duchies.. to get lots of Duchess.. to get to Province..? I'm so confused.
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ksf_

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 12:58:37 pm »
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I can only see duchess being useful if there's another alt vp, otherwise what's the third pile? Estate would be too slow for too little payout.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 01:01:10 pm »
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Assuming both ehunt and chwhite are mixing up Duchess and Duke? Color me confused otherwise.

No, I meant Duchess (in response to ehunt).  Bureaucrat/Duke is quite good, and I say this as someone who is not a fan of Duke in general.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 01:02:26 pm by chwhite »
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Eevee

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2012, 01:03:15 pm »
0

I guess someone needs to explain Bureaucrat/Duchess to me then, because I'm not seeing how that strategy is even intended to work, never mind how it would actually come close to being decent. Buy lots of Duchies.. to get lots of Duchess.. to get to Province..? I'm so confused.
This is mostly with duke, silk roads or gardens on the board I presume. If not, it would have to be a REALLY weak board..

I think chwhite is undervaluing NB a lot. I probably had it a few high spots higher than this list (is there any way to check my own list if I didnt think to save it anywhere upon making it?), NB just rrreally good in big money..

The list looks more or less ok though.
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2012, 01:13:14 pm »
0

I guess someone needs to explain Bureaucrat/Duchess to me then, because I'm not seeing how that strategy is even intended to work, never mind how it would actually come close to being decent. Buy lots of Duchies.. to get lots of Duchess.. to get to Province..? I'm so confused.

What I have in mind is something like - open bureaucrat/silver, get more silver and possibly a lucky gold on second shuffle, pick up a second bureaucrat with 4 on second shuffle. Around turn 5 start preferring duchy to silver with 5 money, taking a duchess whenever possible. Around turn 7 (i.e. just after you've shuffled your deck) prefer duchy to gold with 6-7, still taking a duchess whenever possible unless it's ridiculous. Obviously always buy province when possible. Goal is 3 provinces and 5 duchies, can win with 2 provinces and 7 duchies as long as it grabs some estates. Maybe it's terrible, I dunno, I am not allowed to play dominion on pain of five hundred dollars but perhaps you can simulate it?
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Fabian

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2012, 01:33:41 pm »
+1

I'll leave the simulating to someone else, but after my very scientific and extensive testing, I deem the strategy to be bad after losing 1 game against straight BM (well, it grabbed Duchess when buying Duchy in the lategame)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/16/game-20120716-103133-e7535959.html
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ehunt

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2012, 01:43:43 pm »
+1

omg i hate losing to bengster
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iangoth

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2012, 04:53:09 pm »
0

Navigator seems overrated to me (I put it third to last). It's a tunnel enabler, but what else is it good at? The discard/reorder ability is really something you want for engine support, but as a terminal, it's likely to increase inconsistency, not decrease it. And if you reliably have the spare actions to play your navigator before your drawers, you probably don't need the it in the first place. Navigator is probably the only card besides scout that has never once may me say, "wow, I'm really glad I bought this card." Not that navigator is as bad as scout, but it's pretty bad.
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2012, 05:36:37 pm »
0

Well, if I had voted I would have put Coppersmith last ! Then, the main problem of Scout is its cost ! It looked good when you played Intrigue only because of Great Hall+Nobles+Harem (and sometimes Duke, too) but when you play with everything else...

Thief is useless, okay !
Talisman and Spy aren't that bad ???
And I understand why Pirate Ship gets a so high deviation.

Overall, it's weird to see how the "new bad cards" have lost many ranks, while Bureaucrat + Nomad Camp (which is nothing more than woodcutter + topdeck ???)... and I'm a bit sad about this good old Remodel in the last third.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2012, 05:42:22 pm »
+4

YES, SCOUT BEATS THIEF, SWEET!!!

Seriously, this has made my day. Scout is not only the worst $4 card, it is the worst card in all of Dominion, period. I feel like me saying this over and over again has helped win this glorious day. I am so happy.

We did it everyone. Scout is worse than Thief. It is known.

Now to read the rest of the list...
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