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Author Topic: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards  (Read 42632 times)

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Adrienaline

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2012, 05:46:29 am »
0

What about Scout + Baron, Tournament or Explorer (or if there are similar style cards in the expansions to come), pairing off cards with what you need to make the cards work?

Or is this considered one of the "niche" uses of Scout?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2012, 05:49:04 am »
+2

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).

Feast still conflicts with these actions because you would have to buy the Feast instead of them. The thing is that if there's Monument or Militia, you're not going to open Navigator or Feast. Navigator, however, is at least a decent opening some of the time, when the typically stronger openings are not available.
http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=scout%2C%20thief%2C%20coppersmith%2C%20talisman%2C%20spy%2C%20treasure%20map%2C%20pirate%20ship%2C%20navigator%2C%20feast%2C%20bureaucrat%2C%20nomad%20camp%2C%20walled%20village%2C%20noble%20brigand%2C%20remodel
Notice that Navigator is the only card on this list that has a positive winrate on turn 1-2. (Also note that Walled Village is the only other one that is positive at any point before turn 25, for all the Walled Village haters.)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:51:18 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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DStu

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2012, 05:52:45 am »
+1

Quote
What about Scout + Baron, Tournament or Explorer (or if there are similar style cards in the expansions to come), pairing off cards with what you need to make the cards work?

Or is this considered one of the "niche" uses of Scout?

I think the niche is more or less Great Hall, Harems, Nobles.

Scout-Baron is nice when they collide (without Estate), but if they don't? When you play the Scout, you might draw the Estates away from the Baron in the next hand. If you don't play it, you would have loved a Silver instead. Tournament is perhaps nicer, because you usually have some more Tournaments than Barons, making them more likely to collide, and Tournaments risk to turn into gimped Scouts anyway in the midgame. So replacing the 3rd or 4th Tournament with a Scout might be not wrong.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2012, 11:15:09 am »
0

Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Massive untruth.

What is true is that Walled Village has the weakest bonus of the $4 Villages by far.  But even that is not absolute: I will prefer Walled Village to Farming, Worker's, and Mining in Torturer games, where the top-decking is really useful for lining up an early double-Torturer hit.  Sometimes Walled Village's bonus is also useful in other decks as well, especially those with a few powerful terminals and no cantrips.

Torturer is admittedly the only consistent case where it's competitive with the other $4 Villages- but it's a big case!  And you also need to take into account the cheaper Villages too, because in many engine decks you will be buying them for $4.  If I have $4 and want Village, well Walled Village is strictly better (even if by only a tiny amount).  And it's pretty frequently preferable to Shanty Town and Native Village as well.  As for the more expensive Villages... well I'll never spend $5 on a Walled Village when Bazaar is around (barring cases like HoP/Fairgrounds).  But what if I only have $4, and need a Village?

Look, I'll agree that on average Walled Village is the worst Village.  But it's not always the worst Village, and even so Villages are so important to the game that it is madness to have even a bad Village that low.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 11:38:03 am by chwhite »
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2012, 11:29:18 am »
0

My bottom 5 cards, btw, were: Scout, Thief, Coppersmith, Pirate Ship, Feast. I think I stand by all those as worse than Talisman and Spy, and I loathe Talisman and Spy. And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.

My bottom 5 were Thief, Scout, Pirate Ship, Talisman, Noble Brigand.  Brigand was probably a mistake (even though I am still sure it's a lock for the bottom 10), but the others not at all.  Of course, Coppersmith is a card that only works in certain engines (Spy too), so I'm not surprised you underrate it. :P

I had Feast as one spot above Navigator- I'm not sure that was correct, but I am sure they're close in power.  Feast is weak, but it is not "nothing".  Uses include:

* opening when there are power $5s you absolutely need, and it's an enginey board that doesn't want too too many Silvers (the most common use, and the one I suspect you are thinking of when you say it's "nothing").
* Duke games (WW beat me with a surprisingly strong Feast-powered Duke rush not that long ago)
* cost shenanigans
* gain them with University, get Duchy later
* TR/KC

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).

There are a lot more interesting terminals at $4, yes!  But there are worse ones, too.  Navigator is a mediocre card that is only as high as it is because some of the $4s are just so god-awful. 

Navigator is also more useful than Chancellor in engine decks (obviously, those with lots of Villages that can spare the terminal space)- in addition to the early-game cycling, it gives you more control later on, and reordering the cards you put back can be useful with cards like Scrying Pool.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2012, 11:33:24 am »
0

I think the niche is more or less Great Hall, Harems, Nobles.

Scout is decent support for Scrying Pool and Vineyards decks, too.

I think everyone that is putting Scout last instead of Thief– the once, future, and always weakest card in the game– is forgetting this fact.

...

Another thing.  Way back when, I played a game against tat (#1 on the leaderboard at the time), and lost almost solely because I neglected to buy Scout.  Such a thing has to my recollection never, ever happened to me because of neglecting Thief, and you'd think it would after 8,000 games if Thief was better.  Which it isn't.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 11:44:40 am by chwhite »
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rinkworks

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2012, 11:51:02 am »
0

Count me in as those mystified by the Walled Village hate.  chwhite and iangoth have done better at presenting my own stance, but I'll chime in anyway just to reiterate the fact that the $3-$4 price difference is teensy, and you buy $3 cards with $4 to spend all the time.  So why should Walled Village be so hated for the narrowness of its bonus ability when a vanilla Village costing $4 would often be an important card to have?

Indeed, it is the weakest and most situational of the $4 Villages, but that hardly makes it one of the worst $4 cards in general.  And of course the idea that Shanty Town and Native Village are necessarily going to be better alternatives is silly.

We've also had two cases where Walled Village becomes preferable to other $4 Villages:  as an opening with Ambassador, and in Torturer games.   That's actually pretty impressive -- still narrow, but for an ability you don't need for the card to be a decent card, not bad.
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2012, 11:55:58 am »
+1

* Duke games (WW beat me with a surprisingly strong Feast-powered Duke rush not that long ago)

The most hilarious game of Dominion I've ever played was an University game where I used the Universities to gain Feasts, then the Feasts to gain Gardens.  Hilarious, because I used the "Gain an action card costing up to $5" ability to get a $4 card whose only power is to get $5 cards, and then using that to gain another $4 card.

There was more to it than that (earlier in the game I was getting actual $5 actions with my Universities and switched to Feasts later), but still.  Funny game.
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theory

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2012, 12:42:43 pm »
+3

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?
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Insomniac

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2012, 12:55:31 pm »
0

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?

Walled villlage is like paying 1 extra for a village. The 'bonus'? You can top deck it but if you top deck it you didn't really do what you wanted to do with that village so the 'bonus' is more like adding salt to the wound
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2012, 12:57:23 pm »
0

Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Massive untruth.

What is true is that Walled Village has the weakest bonus of the $4 Villages by far.  But even that is not absolute: I will prefer Walled Village to Farming, Worker's, and Mining in Torturer games, where the top-decking is really useful for lining up an early double-Torturer hit.  Sometimes Walled Village's bonus is also useful in other decks as well, especially those with a few powerful terminals and no cantrips.

Torturer is admittedly the only consistent case where it's competitive with the other $4 Villages- but it's a big case!  And you also need to take into account the cheaper Villages too, because in many engine decks you will be buying them for $4.  If I have $4 and want Village, well Walled Village is strictly better (even if by only a tiny amount).  And it's pretty frequently preferable to Shanty Town and Native Village as well.  As for the more expensive Villages... well I'll never spend $5 on a Walled Village when Bazaar is around (barring cases like HoP/Fairgrounds).  But what if I only have $4, and need a Village?

Look, I'll agree that on average Walled Village is the worst Village.  But it's not always the worst Village, and even so Villages are so important to the game that it is madness to have even a bad Village that low.

What about Mountebank?  Shouldn't that be good with WV?
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2012, 01:07:02 pm »
0

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?

Walled villlage is like paying 1 extra for a village. The 'bonus'? You can top deck it but if you top deck it you didn't really do what you wanted to do with that village so the 'bonus' is more like adding salt to the wound

Well, sure (except in Torturer games, where it's your opponents that get salt in their wounds).  If vanilla Village cost $4 I'd rank it above Noble Brigand and Trader without hesitation.

Basically in my eyes the "bonus" is good enough to move it above Remodel.  One spot of ranking.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 01:08:09 pm by chwhite »
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DG

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2012, 01:30:08 pm »
+4

If you try to play a shanty town like a village it is worse than a village. If you try to play a walled village like a village then it is just a more expensive village. If you play your walled village like a walled village it is worth an extra coin.

Quote
What about Scout + Baron, Tournament or Explorer (or if there are similar style cards in the expansions to come), pairing off cards with what you need to make the cards work?

You need to be sure the deck is working in the way you expect. Without the right support, such as a drawing card to play after the scout, the scout might only be of limited value.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 01:36:19 pm by DG »
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2012, 01:42:03 pm »
0

I think people hate Walled Village for the same reason I hate Cellar.

Warehouse exists, Cellar is worse?

Fishing Village/Worker's Village/etc. exists, Walled Village is worse?

True. But Warehouse is just one card that does Cellar's thing, but better. Walled Village has quite a few cards that give you a better (or cheaper) village with a bonus. There may be niche cases where I prefer Walled to Farming, but usually if they are both available I really prefer Farming. Same goes for Worker's, Mining. Then obviously Fishing, Festival, and Bazaar are differently priced but pretty much just way better. And even Hamlet and Native will do what you want, but you can grab two of them at once.

Because Walled Village is so similar (but a little inferior, usually) to 8 other cards, I really do think it is outmoded most of the time it shows up.
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dondon151

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2012, 02:03:12 pm »
+2

It's only truly similar to the 3 other villages that cost $4. In the extreme minority of kingdoms where WV is present with another $4 village, then yeah, it is outmoded and may as well never be bought (except when Ambassador and Torturer are present). I guess you could say the same if Fishing Village or Hamlet shares the kingdom or Native Village on a very small percentage of kingdoms.

When there are more expensive villages around, then WV fills its niche by being a cheaper, serviceable alternative. It's much easier building an engine with $4 villages and $5 payload cards than it is with $5 villages (of course, if you can and should get a Bazaar or Festival, then you should get one).

And when there are no other villages around, then WV is just a village. Village ranked in the top 50% of $3 cards, so I'm not too sure why WV is in nearly the bottom 25%.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2012, 05:06:38 pm »
+1

Sure you may rarely want Walled Village when there are other $4 villages on the board, but you still want it more often than all the other cards on this list.
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Robz888

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2012, 05:13:28 pm »
0

Sure you may rarely want Walled Village when there are other $4 villages on the board, but you still want it more often than all the other cards on this list.

Not me. I want Nomad Camp more.
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shark_bait

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2012, 05:17:34 pm »
0

With NC, I like to ask myself, is the 40% chance to get $5 worth having a Nomad Camp in my deck.  And then of course there is also the did I just trash 2 Treasure Maps gaining 4 Gold on top of my deck?  If Yes, then I like to buy NC.  :)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2012, 05:22:33 pm »
0

Sure you may rarely want Walled Village when there are other $4 villages on the board, but you still want it more often than all the other cards on this list.

Not me. I want Nomad Camp more.

That's because you're severely overrating Nomad Camp. It's extra ability is sexier than that of Walled Village, but at the end of the day, it suffers from all the problems you complain about with Walled Village. Outside of a few special situations where you want to be using +buy from turn 2, it's worse than mostly all of the other +buy cards out there -- and there are twice as many +buy cards as villages.
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chwhite

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2012, 06:04:06 pm »
0

And how did Navigator beat Feast? That's nonsense.
Absolutely not. I really don't understand why navigator is so high, it seems as bad as chancellor for me… And I think I even buy chancellor more often. There are a lot of more interesting terminal actions-silver for 4$ : Bridge, monument, militia, curpurse, …
On the other side, feast is only a one shot so it doesn't conflict with these actions, and is pretty good for engines which doesn't really want silvers (minion…).

Feast still conflicts with these actions because you would have to buy the Feast instead of them. The thing is that if there's Monument or Militia, you're not going to open Navigator or Feast. Navigator, however, is at least a decent opening some of the time, when the typically stronger openings are not available.
http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=scout%2C%20thief%2C%20coppersmith%2C%20talisman%2C%20spy%2C%20treasure%20map%2C%20pirate%20ship%2C%20navigator%2C%20feast%2C%20bureaucrat%2C%20nomad%20camp%2C%20walled%20village%2C%20noble%20brigand%2C%20remodel
Notice that Navigator is the only card on this list that has a positive winrate on turn 1-2. (Also note that Walled Village is the only other one that is positive at any point before turn 25, for all the Walled Village haters.)

Neat graph.

Also of note: Thief is consistently well below Scout.  And is dead last by a mile until it gets taken over by Treasure Map, where it settles into second-last.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2012, 08:38:12 pm »
0

Scout is not as harmful of a card to have in your deck as thief, under the vast majority of circumstances. But the circumstances you want thief in are way more plentiful than those you want scout in, and when you do want one or the other, thief tends to do more for you. Yeah, they're both terrible.
I actually think Pirate Ship is worse 2-player than thief, though both are dreadful.

Still, my biggest issues here are talisman (too low), spy (well, too low even though it's pretty useless - a lot of the terminals it is below are similarly useless and more painful), and of course, Noble Brigand.

So, the thing is, Brigand is like the 10th most important kingdom card fro Big Money. Now that doesn't sound like a lot, but you have to remember that most of them above it are curse-givers. If we throw those out, it beats up on everything except wharf, monument, and merchant ship and jack, which it's pretty even with. Of course, engines don't have TONS of use for it, but it's not TERRIBLE in engines - in a big big engine match-up, it's at least some form of virtual coin, and can potentially clog coppers. More likely though, you want it to disrupt a BM opponent, or occasionally to steal the important little bit of treasure that your competing engines are relying on - it won't hit so reliably, but on the other hand, you can play it a zillion times, so it's not THAT bad a deal. Bad for engines, no doubt, but good AGAINST BM, more than anything else. And SO good BM. Now, it's a worse card overall than most of the cards it is better than in BM, because very often you can adjust around it - if opponent goes NB, you switch over to playing more of an engine. On the other hand, this is a class of card which can have a significant impact on a game, even when nobody buys it. Just the THREAT of it makes people adjust their style, in a goodly number of cases. So that, and its pre-eminence in BM, make it a middling $4 for me.

Also, there are some cards missing from down here, but I guess we'll get that later....

yudantaiteki

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2012, 08:41:25 pm »
0

Thief scales to multiplayer, which puts it above Scout for me.  Thief in a 4 or 5 player game can be decent in the mid to late game, especially if the opponents have trashed a lot of their copper for you.  It's still a bad card, but not as bad as Scout.

Other comments:
Quote
* Coppersmith is underrated.

I agree with this; I wouldn't put it really high on my list, but I would personally put it higher than Talisman and Feast.  It's very situational like both of those cards but somehow I feel like it's a little easier to use and less dependent on the board...maybe I'm wrong, though.

Quote
* Oh, yeah, Treasure Map and Pirate Ship.  They suck.

Pirate Ship is a card that, like Thief, scales to multiplayer.  If you are in a 4 or 5 player game with Pirate Ship, you cannot be the only player not to buy them (unless there are viable non-treasure options for getting money that can beat the pirate ship).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 06:13:28 am by yudantaiteki »
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2012, 09:31:39 am »
0

Walled Village is only an option if an Action engine is viable, and if there are absolutely no other villages.

Massive untruth.

What is true is that Walled Village has the weakest bonus of the $4 Villages by far.  But even that is not absolute: I will prefer Walled Village to Farming, Worker's, and Mining in Torturer games, where the top-decking is really useful for lining up an early double-Torturer hit.  Sometimes Walled Village's bonus is also useful in other decks as well, especially those with a few powerful terminals and no cantrips.

Torturer is admittedly the only consistent case where it's competitive with the other $4 Villages- but it's a big case!  And you also need to take into account the cheaper Villages too, because in many engine decks you will be buying them for $4.  If I have $4 and want Village, well Walled Village is strictly better (even if by only a tiny amount).  And it's pretty frequently preferable to Shanty Town and Native Village as well.  As for the more expensive Villages... well I'll never spend $5 on a Walled Village when Bazaar is around (barring cases like HoP/Fairgrounds).  But what if I only have $4, and need a Village?

Look, I'll agree that on average Walled Village is the worst Village.  But it's not always the worst Village, and even so Villages are so important to the game that it is madness to have even a bad Village that low.
The bolded part is probably the most practical use of this card.  If you are going to play BM+ 2-3X, especially if that X is going to be a non-drawer, then its pretty practical to own this card.  I mean you are essentially giving up a silver to purchase something to avoid (a good chunk of) terminal clashing. Just because it gives +actions, does not mean it should be used in a similar fashion.  I'm just not sure how often these cases are (where there are strong terminals, a reason to purchase this at $4 and cantrips not worth purchasing).

Double ambassador works the exact same method because it will prevent a lot of the terminal clashing. 

My intuition says that early double jack wants a T3/T4 walled village as well if you hit 4/4 (or 5/4).  In this case, I would say walled village is better than a lot of the other villages (not fishing, festival and hamlet?). 
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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2012, 10:35:46 am »
0

Scout is not as harmful of a card to have in your deck as thief, under the vast majority of circumstances. But the circumstances you want thief in are way more plentiful than those you want scout in, and when you do want one or the other, thief tends to do more for you. Yeah, they're both terrible.
I actually think Pirate Ship is worse 2-player than thief, though both are dreadful.

That's not right at all, in 2p Pirate Ship fills a valuable void on engine boards which are missing the +virtual coin component but have draw,actions, and trashing. It works similarly  to Saboteur which has uses on engines which have everything except +buy.
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Qvist

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Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $4 cards
« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2012, 10:30:59 am »
+1

The Best $4 Cards - Part 2/3
Link to the win rates on Councilroom
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom

#29 ▲1 Ironworks (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 23.86 ▲2.06 / Median: 25 ▲2.5 / Mode: 21 ▲9 / Standard Deviation: 7.7 ▲0.9
Highest Rank(s): #7 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (3x), #38 (1x), #42 (1x)

Ironworks is the next card after a big 4.3 point gap. This means it's the worst card of the mediocre ones. The average being more than 5 points higher than the actual rank shows also that the next cards are very close together and their ranks are somewhat debatable. Ironworks has some really high outliers with 5 times in the Top 10.

Ironworks is the superior Workshop which was pretty low on the $3 list. Does it deserve a higher rating on the $4 list? The biggest bonus for getting a lot of wanted action cards like Caravan is: Ironworks is non-terminal. So you can get Ironworks with Ironworks and then quickly get Caravans or other $4 cards. Being an Intrigue card it also combos nice with dual-type cards, so getting Great Halls or Islands makes Ironworks a cantrip. And it also works better in Gardens or Silk Road games for getting an additional card and increasing the probability getting to $4. But it lacks the same problem as Workshop: How many $4 cards do you want? So many times Ironworks is skippable.
#28 ▼6 Spice Merchant (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 23.65 ▼2.51 / Median: 26 ▼6 / Mode: 13 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 9.2 ▼0.3
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #6 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #37 (2x), #41 (2x)

Spice Merchant has only a 0.2 point lead over Ironworks and is the first Hinterlands card with a significant drop. It lost 6 ranks and 2.5 points and has still a high mode (7 times on #13). It's also the card with the second highest deviation, even higher than last time. Most of you either voted it somewhere in the Tens or somewhere in the Thirties.

Spice Merchant is a very flexible trasher and the comparism to Moneylender is obvious. It produces less money for the cost of an additional buy. It can really shine if you want a non-terminal trasher for example in combination with Minions (its option +2 cards, +1 action basically restores the hand size) and if there's no other +Buy and you really need one. It's therefore more flexible (not limited to Copper and two options to choose from) but a slower opener as it's harder to get to $5 early on. It may be still useful later on, but it can lead to very hard decisions if you really want to trash that Silver. Spice Merchant / Ambassador is the #19 best opening (and the third best Ambassador opening), because you can trash coppers you get from your oponnent and still play your Ambassador with a full hand (Spice Merchant / Masquerade is on #47).
#27 =0 Trader (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 22.77 ▲1.52 / Median: 23 ▲2.5 / Mode: 29 ▲4 / Standard Deviation: 7.8 ▲1.3
Highest Rank(s): #5 (2x), #6 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #34 (1x), #37 (1x), #42 (1x)

Trader stayed were it was. But it still went up 1.5 points and has a much higher consensus now.

Trader is - like all Reaction cards - very situational. It's Silver gaining defense is mostly stronger than Watchtower's trashing, so you have to think twice if you really want to play that Curse-giving attack or another card that deals out junk and give your opponent a free Silver, especially with Mountebank on the board for 2 Silvers. Trader is a good opener in non-Colony Big Money games too, so you can trash Estates for 2 Silvers. It's also good with Gardens, eventually trashing a Silver to 3 Silvers. But in many other boards Trader is simply a no-go.
#26 ▼2 Quarry (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 22.57 ▲0.85 / Median: 24 =0 / Mode: 24 =0 / Standard Deviation: 7.7 ▼0.2
Highest Rank(s): #4 (1x), #6 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (1x), #37 (1x), #39 (1x)

Quarry has only a 0.2 point lead over Trader and would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking, so newer players overrate it a bit. The stats are similar than last time, but still it lost 2 ranks.

Quarry is very situational too. For action cards, this is basically a Gold you can pick up in the opening turns. So if you want many action cards and have additional buys too, Quarry is your card to go for, for example with Goons. But in the later game when you picking up victory cards, you wish this weren't only a Copper. Quarry / Ambassador is the #80 best opening, both good cards for building an engine.
#25 ▼5 Island (Seaside) Weighted Average: 22.47 ▼2.23 / Median: 23 ▼2 / Mode: 23 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 7.2 ▲1.3
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #33 (2x), #35 (1x)

Island has a really high outlier on the second place, but still lost 5 ranks and over 2 points. It has only a 0.1 point lead over Quarry and 0.3 points over Trader, it was very close here. Despite this outlier there is higher consensus on this card. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Island does pseudo-trashing with the addition of giving additional points. So you can use it for pseudo-trashing the Estates without losing the points and later in the game you can pick it up and take your Provinces out of your deck. It can really be great with Silk Road on the board. It is rarely a game-changer, but can be a nice addition to some decks to keep them clean. And even in cursing games with no trashers, you can take Curses out of your deck for a total net of +1 point. The problem is that you don't build up your economy if you open with it and if there important cards for $5 or $6 you often have to skip Island.
#24 ▲1 Baron (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 21.81 ▲1.80 / Median: 22 ▲1.5 / Mode: 28 ▲2 / Standard Deviation: 7.9 ▼0.2
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #8 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #36 (1x), #37 (1x), #38 (1x)

Baron has a really high outlier on the second place too and hase even the same best 3 ranks as Island. But it went up 1 rannks and nearly 2 points. It also would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Baron is very interesting as it gives you a very high probability getting Gold early and even get a very early King's Court or Forge, but is very swingy too. If you cannot draw your Baron with an Estate, this is a dead card in the beginning, because you mostly don't want another Estate (and getting Estate for feeding your Baron is mostly no good idea). But as the game goes on, the probability decreases drawing an Estate with Baron. It has also a nice synergy with Crossroads. In the middle game Baron is most of the time no good card, but later in the game it can you net another point and gives you a +Buy too. If you're going to trash your Estates, don't buy a Baron and if you have a deck that can guarantee an Estate in every hand, like multiple Hunting Parties, Baron can very powerful. So, Baron is very situational and a rank in the middle of the $4 cards seems deserved.
#23 ▲3 Cutpurse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 21.73 ▲2.06 / Median: 23 ▲2.5 / Mode: 28 ▲8 / Standard Deviation: 7.3 ▲2.9
Highest Rank(s): #8 (1x), #9 (1x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #38 (2x), #41 (1x)

Cutpurse is only 0.08 points higher than Baron, very close. If we would take the unweighted average into account, Cutpurse would be only on #26, similar to the last time unexperienced players definitely underrate it. And it has a way lower deviation this time.

Cutpurse is a pretty good opener. It's a terminal Silver that can even hit harder than Militia. In the beginning where every coin is important to get to $5, Cutpurse can be really annoying. And it is even worse in games with more than 2 players where you can lose multiple Coppers in one turn. Yes, later it gets worse and worse and is nothing but a terminal Silver where you can see your opponents hand.
#22 ▼1 Farming Village (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 20.94 ▼0.13 / Median: 21 ▼1 / Mode: 20 =0 / Standard Deviation: 6.3 ▲0.7
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #4 (1x), #8 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #29 (2x), #34 (2x)

Its stats are similar to last time and the deviation was even lower - very low for a middle ranked card. Still it has two big outliers, one voted it even first and only 2 people voted it below #30. It would be on #21 taking the unweighted average into account.

Farming Village is the third best (last time: second best) of the 4 $4 villages. The additional ability of this village is always useful and a good counter in cursing games and against top-decking attacks like Rabble. And later in the game where you are heavily greening its additional ability is very useful too. You may even pick it up if you don't necessarily need the actions and just want to have its filter ability. But in games without cursers or even good trashing, it's in the beginning often only an expensive "normal" village. Farming Village / Ambassador is the #91 best opening.
#21 ▼3 Throne Room (Base) Weighted Average: 20.45 ▼1.73 / Median: 22 ▼3 / Mode: 27 =0 / Standard Deviation: 8.1 ▲1.0
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #32 (1x), #35 (1x), #36 (1x)

Throne Room experienced a drop of nearly 2 points and 3 ranks. The deviation decreased, but it has still some very high ranks, the highest being second. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted average.

I was curious how Throne Room was going to perform as Throne Room for itself basically does nothing and is highly dependant on the other cards on the board. It can be so strong, especially with strong attacks and with card drawers too. But nothing is more depressing than drawing Throne Room with no other action card. So you need a high action density and hope to draw it with that card you really want to double. You can also use it as a pseudo-village if there's no-one available and really need one, if you double a cantrip. Throne Room can really be a game-changer, especially if you have the luck and draw it with the right cards.
#20 ▼11 Moneylender (Base) Weighted Average: 20.39 ▼7.50 / Median: 18 ▼5.50 / Mode: 16 ▼2 / Standard Deviation: 8.8 ▼2.0
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #6 (1x), #7 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #35 (1x), #36 (1x), #37 (1x)

What a huge drop of 11 ranks and 7.5 points! Moneylender got on #20 with only 0.06 points better than Throne Room, it was a very close call. As many rated it way lower, but the other half of you still ranking it high, the deviation went up 2 points, the third highest deviation in this list. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking, newer players think it's a little bit stronger.

Moneylender is another card that falls into the category "Great opener, bad afterwards". It's like a Silver but with the trash ability at the same time. Like said earlier, the comparism to Spice Merchant is obvious. Moneylender is a much better opener with the deficit of not being so flexible later in the game. You mostly only want one of it (maybe only on Mountebank boards you would maybe buy a second), but this one can really fasten the game. It's less important as it used to be, but still great for building an engine with high cost cards. Moneylender / Ambassador is the #139 ▼37 best opening.
#19 =0 Mining Village (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 20.32 ▼0.21 / Median: 20 =0 / Mode: 20 ▲6 / Standard Deviation: 6.9 ▲0.1
Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #9 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #31 (3x), #32 (1x), #34 (1x)

Only 0.07 point-lead over Moneylender and 0.13 points over Throne Room, veeeery close. The stats are nearly the same as last time and it has a outlier on #5. It would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking.

Mining Village is a normal Village with a one-shot Silver possibility and the second best village for $4 (last time: best). If you need a Village you can use that one-shot self-trashing option later in the game when you give up your engine and fully commit on going green or have bad luck late in the game and only hit $6 or $7. And even if you doesn't have a engine and are going basically big money, you can buy this in the mid-game when you miss $6 for a Gold and don't want another Silver in your deck, because this still gives you the additional card and the $2 of a Silver. And if you have enough money and no additional buy you can save the one-shot Silver for later. Mining Village / Ambassador is the #76 best opening.
#18 ▼4 Horse Traders (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 19.77 ▼4.20 / Median: 19 ▼4 / Mode: 23 ▼7 / Standard Deviation: 7.0 ▲1.7
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #4 (1x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #31 (2x), #32 (1x)

Although it "only" went down 4 ranks, it still lost value with a drop of over 4 points. The agreement in this is higher although some still voted it on #2 or #4.

Horse Traders is (beside of Watchtower) the only Reaction card that is useful on many boards. Yes, it is still situational, but the situations occur very often. It's geat against discarding attacks, restoring the hand size - especially against Minion for a hand of 6 cards. Especially with weak attacks this card is good, because the benefit from Horse Traders is bigger for the opponent than the benefit for yourself playing a weak attack. But, the action part is very useful too. It's useful in decks full of green cards and curses, so it's a good supporting card for Gardens or Silk Road rushes, or buying Dukes. And it's a good addition to Hunting Party, a good starter for getting $5 early or early Grand Markets and so on... many possibilities. Still, as it is a Reaction card, it is very situational why you maybe voted it lower than last time.
#17 =0 Conspirator (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 18.30 ▲0.04 / Median: 19 ▼0.5 / Mode: 23 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 7.1 ▲0.5
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #6 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #32 (2x), #34 (2x)

Conspirator's stats nearly didn't changed. There's higher consensus on this card, but not much else to say here.

Conspirator is so strong, but heavily depends on supporting cards that have to be non-terminal. Cheap action cards like Wishing Well, Pearl Diver or Hamlet that you can pick up in masses, especially with additional buys are great with Conspirator. You want thin decks with high action density. With that big support, this is a Grand Market just without the additional buy. In all other cases, you have to skip over Conspirator, because it's just a terminal Silver then.

To the third part
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:52:14 am by Qvist »
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