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ThetaSigma12

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Landforms
« on: January 07, 2017, 12:21:39 pm »
+6

Hello! Today I'm here to introduce a new landscape card type: Landforms. These come from an expansion that was originally intended to be a sort of sequel to Dominion: Civilization, but with 3 new card types we just couldn't get the playtesting done we needed too.

Landforms started one day when I was thinking about a new landscape card. We have Events, which you can buy, and Landmarks, which change your score. But what about other sideways cards, that did essentially anything else? I made a few of these and called them "Terrains". They had a variety of effects, but most of them were "In games using this" and "Setup" effects. One of them was "At the start of each of your turns, +1 Buy". I was thinking about it, and I wondered, wouldn't it be better if it was limited, like you can only use it 3 times each game. And then, wait, what if it was a shared resource? Like it could be used 6 times per game,  but somebody could use it 4 times and the other person 2 times. And it would have to scale, so it could be used 6 times in 2 player, 9 times in 3 player, 12 times in 4 player, and so on. You would use tokens on them to track how many times you could use it. And Voila! Landforms were born.

I immediatley scrapped most of the others like "Setup: Each player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile". They didn't always synergize with the board and they took up too much space. So I made a bunch of ones with tokens, to track how many times they could be used. I instantly made 4 for each of the Vanilla Boni. +Cards, +, +Actions, and +Buy. As you will see the Cards one was dropped, and the and Action ones evolved, because there were a few rules for making these I found out.

1) It can't be automatic. Something like +2 Cards you'll almost always want, so there's no fun. It still works somewhat, since it's limited, but in the end it's kinda boring. A good example of one that got removed was "You may discard 3 cards, for +2 cards". It seemed good, but the problem was anytime you had 3 junk, or even 2 junk, you'd always want to do it. I wanted Landforms to have a strategic descicion, like do I wan't to get +1 Buy now to grab another Smtihy, or potentially save it for when I need to double Province for the win. It's a fine line, but with some playtesting you always find what's fun and what isn't.
2) It can't give in a way Landmarks could. Most of the Landforms use 3 tokens per player, so if you could remove one for +2 , it's essentially 6 per player all over again.
3) It can't help someone run away with the game. Something like "When you gain a Province, you may remove a token from here, to gain 2 Golds" is kinda bad. If you get behind due to bad luck you should still have a chance. This is why a lot of the Landforms help a losing player more, or aren't as good if your deck is full of good stuff.
4) It can't be too easy to burn the tokens, e.g. some jerk just removing all the +1 Action tokens for no benefit to him. This is why the +1 Action token you'll see later can only be removed after you play an Action. Otherwise you could just take 2 in your opening when it does nothing. That's no fun. Most Landforms overcome this simply by having their effect always do something, like gain a card costing up to . It will (essentially) always hit.

Later in development I decided to drop the name Terrains. There just weren't a lot of terrain types without getting all weird like "Deciduos Evergreen Troplical Sub-Saharan Forest". It's a game, not a science textbook. I chose Landforms for the new name. Landforms are defined as any geographical feature of the earth's surface, so there was tons of new space for names. I got some fun ones in too (Who the heck knew there was something called a kipuka?)

Landforms have a lot of design space. You'll see some more background as I go over them in the next week or so, but there are a lot of possible uses for them. The general rule is "Landforms have the players remove tokens, and as tokens are removed different abilites or punishments are activated".
1) You can use the tokens as a limiter. It's more strategic when you have 3 free Actions then when you have infinite and you can stock up on terminals with impunity.
2) You can use them as a tracker. You have some landforms that force you to remove tokens, and when the tokens run out bad stuff happens. Some let you remove them for a cost, but when their gone you get some benefits.
3) You can use them simply to create player interaction. When it's a shared resource suddenly everything is more tense. If you don't want to use it now, are you actually helping your deck in the future, or are you just throwing away free stuff that your opponent will steal.

So yeah! That's a lot of text, and I'm still learning. I have complete confidence in the idea, but maybe some won't work out in the end. Maybe attacking your opponent isn't a good idea, or giving out free Silver is bad. Who knows. This intro might be confusing, but hopefully as I post the Landforms you'll get the idea. I hope you all enjoy!

EDIT:

I've revised the subject. Now it is a prefex "Geo - (Event, Landmark, Edict)". It keeps the color and the name to remind you to put the tokens on. I might remove the Setup clauses on all of them though. They all start with 3 tokens per player.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 04:45:43 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 12:25:03 pm »
0

Geo - Edicts:

Geo - Events:

Geo - Landmarks:

Edicts:

Events:
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 04:43:30 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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MattLee

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 01:51:05 am »
+2

I like the idea and I think there's probably a lot of untapped design space here. I've actually thought about trying something similar but more in the way of setup cards (like baker but not on a kingdom card). I'll be interested to see what you've come up with  :)

My one grip is that the word Landforms sounds pretty similar to Landmarks.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 03:59:22 pm »
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So here are the first 3. I'm afraid they're quite boring however.

We'll start off with Forest. Probably my favorite of all the Landforms, forest is a classic example of everything a Landform entails. It's a beneficial resource, but it will quickly go away if you don't use it carefully. There's not much to say on this one.


Next up is Coast, which covers the +1 Buy. An interesting thing about this one is that it seems to break one of te rules: It's really easy to drain. For free you can remove all the tokens in 6 turns or less (with 2 players), and then it's useless. I decided that would be okay, because you really want to be able to use this one in the opening. It's much more interesting if you can open with 2 key s, or possibly a / opener.


This is the last, the + Landform. You can'r use it at the start, it's not that good, and you need to actually pick up some Treasures. It gives some extra importance to money, but it won't let BM dominate.

What about the +Cards? I dropped that one but be sure there are still plently of Landforms that let you draw cards.
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weety4

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 02:45:10 am »
+1

4) It can't be too easy to burn the tokens, e.g. some jerk just removing all the +1 Action tokens for no benefit to him. This is why the +1 Action token you'll see later can only be removed after you play an Action. Otherwise you could just take 2 in your opening when it does nothing. That's no fun. Most Landforms overcome this simply by having their effect always do something, like gain a card costing up to . It will (essentially) always hit.
This is a great concept.
About the problem of destructive play, taking tokens for the sake of taking them away from opponents: in the case of more complex Landforms you could make the token-taking not just conditional but also associated with a cost.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 10:13:11 pm »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 11:50:56 pm »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.

Asper!!!!! It's so good to see you here :)  It's like seeing an old friend who traveled to another country saying, "I may never be back"
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weety4

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 12:59:52 am »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.
This is of course doable but lacks the token mechanism so compared to Landforms it suffers from being available in an unlimited amount.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 07:08:59 am »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.
This is of course doable but lacks the token mechanism so compared to Landforms it suffers from being available in an unlimited amount.
I felt my last sentence made it obvious that you could effortlessly add the token mechanic to either of these.

Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 07:15:01 am »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.

Asper!!!!! It's so good to see you here :)  It's like seeing an old friend who traveled to another country saying, "I may never be back"
Thanks. I might visit now and then.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 07:27:49 am »
0

True points Asper, but as you'll see some of the Landforms can get too complicated to do as events. Same reason Arena is a landmark.
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weety4

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 01:05:26 pm »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.
This is of course doable but lacks the token mechanism so compared to Landforms it suffers from being available in an unlimited amount.
I felt my last sentence made it obvious that you could effortlessly add the token mechanic to either of these.
The advantage of emulating Landforms via Events is that you avoid something new (as well as a new template but I am sure that ThetaSigma wouldn't mind to share his ;)) whereas the disadvantage is that you are timing-wise restricted to the Buy phase, i.e. you couldn't do stuff like Forest which happens during the Action phase.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 01:58:36 pm »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.
This is of course doable but lacks the token mechanism so compared to Landforms it suffers from being available in an unlimited amount.
I felt my last sentence made it obvious that you could effortlessly add the token mechanic to either of these.
The advantage of emulating Landforms via Events is that you avoid something new (as well as a new template but I am sure that ThetaSigma wouldn't mind to share his ;)) whereas the disadvantage is that you are timing-wise restricted to the Buy phase, i.e. you couldn't do stuff like Forest which happens during the Action phase.
Except I already gave an example how Forest would be implemented as an event. If you think about it, my first wording behaves 100% the same, except with Storyteller or Black Market. There will be cases where effects can't be implemented as Events, but Forest is not one of them. Actually, limited access to after-the-fact actions is exactly what Villa already does (I got the wording from there). I'm not even convinced we needed that one either, given the rules confusion it causes (do I start my turn or my buy phase with 1 buy?) and that Coin of the Realm also already does it.

weety4

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 02:49:22 pm »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.
This is of course doable but lacks the token mechanism so compared to Landforms it suffers from being available in an unlimited amount.
I felt my last sentence made it obvious that you could effortlessly add the token mechanic to either of these.
The advantage of emulating Landforms via Events is that you avoid something new (as well as a new template but I am sure that ThetaSigma wouldn't mind to share his ;)) whereas the disadvantage is that you are timing-wise restricted to the Buy phase, i.e. you couldn't do stuff like Forest which happens during the Action phase.
Except I already gave an example how Forest would be implemented as an event. If you think about it, my first wording behaves 100% the same, except with Storyteller or Black Market. There will be cases where effects can't be implemented as Events, but Forest is not one of them. Actually, limited access to after-the-fact actions is exactly what Villa already does (I got the wording from there). I'm not even convinced we needed that one either, given the rules confusion it causes (do I start my turn or my buy phase with 1 buy?) and that Coin of the Realm also already does it.
There are some subtle differences. In the case of Forest you gotta decide when you play the card whether you wanna take the Action token whereas in your case it happens afterwards. Furthermore you are flipped up from 0 to 1 Action whereas in the case of Forest you simply get an extra Action. Now you could argue that this only matters for Diadem but I still think that your way of emulating Landforms via Events is too artifical.
Also, ThetaSigma probably has more complex stuff in the pipelines which cannot be easily emulated via Events anymore. If this were not the case, if you could easily and fluently do all that with Events, I would totally agree that the new concept of Landforms should be avoided.
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Violet CLM

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 05:32:27 pm »
+1

There are some subtle differences. In the case of Forest you gotta decide when you play the card whether you wanna take the Action token whereas in your case it happens afterwards. Furthermore you are flipped up from 0 to 1 Action whereas in the case of Forest you simply get an extra Action. Now you could argue that this only matters for Diadem
Asper's event version is also much more generous if you draw an Action card during your Buy phase somehow, though you'd often (unless trashing Cultist or Overgrown Estate) have to remove some Treasure card/s from play using Bonfire or Mandarin before you could use the event I guess. But those are very much edge cases.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 05:54:46 pm »
+2

Do these 3 as Events Asper 8).


So here's one with +Cards. This one essentially gives you a free Cellar. It lets you discard any number of cards then draw one less than that many, the one less emulating the card you used "to play Cellar". It used to simply discard your hand for 4 cards, but I later combined it with one that let you discard 3 cards for 2 cards. They were too similar and the latter was too much of an automatic decision. I've always loved Cellar and I'm glad I could re-implement it in a less sucky way.


My favorite! This one really speeds up the game. It gives you a free + for the turn, and you get to keep the Silver! However, each other player gets a free next turn, or possibly this one. It becomes really interesting on boards where there are both important expensive and cheap cards. Maybe it deserves to be nerfed because it really does speed things up.


This one's also a doozy. It can turn anything into a Peddler! It's great with terminals, but as with Forest, your tokens can run out. It's more strategic and complex than Forest, because it acts like Forest and Cavern combined in some ways.
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MattLee

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2017, 10:45:27 pm »
+1

I'm really liking a few of these, field especially. Fantastic artwork you've found for them too. I do wonder how they would play out though. Since the setup tokens are a shared resource, on cards like Coast and Forest people might be compelled remove a token even when they can't use it just so that other players don't get the advantage.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 12:53:20 am »
+1

Channel feels pretty similar to Guide, for better or worse. Delta I'd be very strongly tempted (were I the first player) to immediately grab six (or nine, or twelve) silvers into my hand, instabuy a province or colony, then hope that all that money would let me be faster than whatever random other cards everyone else picked up. Obviously on some kingdoms that would be stronger than others, though just more Silvers wouldn't hurt... gaining them all on my second turn would probably be better, so that they'd all get shuffled in afterwards.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 01:14:15 am by Violet CLM »
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weety4

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 05:20:17 am »
+1

Channel feels pretty similar to Guide, for better or worse. Delta I'd be very strongly tempted (were I the first player) to immediately grab six (or nine, or twelve) silvers into my hand, instabuy a province or colony, then hope that all that money would let me be faster than whatever random other cards everyone else picked up. Obviously on some kingdoms that would be stronger than others, though just more Silvers wouldn't hurt... gaining them all on my second turn would probably be better, so that they'd all get shuffled in afterwards.
This doesn't work. The other players can pick Silver or something better, e.g. engine pieces. The only advantage for you is that you already have a Province in your deck but a deck with 6 Silver and all the starting crap is anything but an automatic BM win. Even with 12 Silver, 7 Coppers, 3 Estates and a Province your deck produces only an average of 6,74 coins per turn. That might suffice for BM (you might rather want to start with buying a Gold than a Province though) if it were not for the fact that the other folks have 12 cards which are potentially better than Silver on top of their deck so it is more likely that they would win.

Delta is a great card that massively changes the opening and as just roughly sketched out, it doesn't require the once per turn clause.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 07:00:31 am »
+1

As Events costing 0$:
"Once per turn: If you have no Treasures in play, +1 Action, +1 Buy and return to your Action phase." (Taken from Villa, which does pretty much the same)
"Once per turn: +2 Buys."
"Once per turn: If you have a treasure other than Copper in play: +1 Buy, + 1$"

There's a precedent for Events with setup in Tax.
This is of course doable but lacks the token mechanism so compared to Landforms it suffers from being available in an unlimited amount.
I felt my last sentence made it obvious that you could effortlessly add the token mechanic to either of these.
The advantage of emulating Landforms via Events is that you avoid something new (as well as a new template but I am sure that ThetaSigma wouldn't mind to share his ;)) whereas the disadvantage is that you are timing-wise restricted to the Buy phase, i.e. you couldn't do stuff like Forest which happens during the Action phase.
Except I already gave an example how Forest would be implemented as an event. If you think about it, my first wording behaves 100% the same, except with Storyteller or Black Market. There will be cases where effects can't be implemented as Events, but Forest is not one of them. Actually, limited access to after-the-fact actions is exactly what Villa already does (I got the wording from there). I'm not even convinced we needed that one either, given the rules confusion it causes (do I start my turn or my buy phase with 1 buy?) and that Coin of the Realm also already does it.
There are some subtle differences. In the case of Forest you gotta decide when you play the card whether you wanna take the Action token whereas in your case it happens afterwards. Furthermore you are flipped up from 0 to 1 Action whereas in the case of Forest you simply get an extra Action. Now you could argue that this only matters for Diadem but I still think that your way of emulating Landforms via Events is too artifical.
Also, ThetaSigma probably has more complex stuff in the pipelines which cannot be easily emulated via Events anymore. If this were not the case, if you could easily and fluently do all that with Events, I would totally agree that the new concept of Landforms should be avoided.
I should state that my Event does not flip from 0 to 1 action. You don't lose your actions in the buy phase. After all you mentioned Diadem yourself. However, I forgot that playing Action cards is considered a requirement for getting the action, so iit's true there's a difference.

I would say (and I think we might agree on that) that if it was only these three, rather than introducing a new landscape type, they should either be implemented as Events or scrapped. After all, it's only Forest which is a bit artificial (although I stole the wording from an official card, I never hid my hate for Villa).

Actually, my problem goes further: Why do Landforms need the tokens per definition? It's okay that some will need them, but if you ever were to make a card-shaped thing that just alters the rules unlimitedly, I'd hate to have to introduce a new thing just because it is the same concept without tokens. Why not say that Landforms (the name really isn't that good, sorry) were just rule changes in general, and included some with tokens? You know, like Landmarks. Channel for example doesn't seem to need the tokens on first glance, and I'm sure there will be cases where tokens are actually a bad idea.

There are some subtle differences. In the case of Forest you gotta decide when you play the card whether you wanna take the Action token whereas in your case it happens afterwards. Furthermore you are flipped up from 0 to 1 Action whereas in the case of Forest you simply get an extra Action. Now you could argue that this only matters for Diadem
Asper's event version is also much more generous if you draw an Action card during your Buy phase somehow, though you'd often (unless trashing Cultist or Overgrown Estate) have to remove some Treasure card/s from play using Bonfire or Mandarin before you could use the event I guess. But those are very much edge cases.
I don't think there's any Treasure card that lets you draw cards... Unless you count Plunder with a card token on it.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 07:32:10 am »
0

Channel feels pretty similar to Guide, for better or worse. Delta I'd be very strongly tempted (were I the first player) to immediately grab six (or nine, or twelve) silvers into my hand, instabuy a province or colony, then hope that all that money would let me be faster than whatever random other cards everyone else picked up. Obviously on some kingdoms that would be stronger than others, though just more Silvers wouldn't hurt... gaining them all on my second turn would probably be better, so that they'd all get shuffled in afterwards.
You should only be able to use Delta once per turn, unless I'm wrong about the rules.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 07:52:10 am »
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I would say (and I think we might agree on that) that if it was only these three, rather than introducing a new landscape type, they should either be implemented as Events or scrapped. After all, it's only Forest which is a bit artificial (although I stole the wording from an official card, I never hid my hate for Villa).
Yes, I agree. Those 3 are not meant to showcase the scope of Landforms, these are just a simple way to implement the mechanics. Of course Coast could just be an Event, but having it lets you see what a Landform can do in simple ways, as an introduction. I'll mention again how Arena could be an Event easily, but It's a landmark because it fits with the other landmarks.
Actually, my problem goes further: Why do Landforms need the tokens per definition? It's okay that some will need them, but if you ever were to make a card-shaped thing that just alters the rules unlimitedly, I'd hate to have to introduce a new thing just because it is the same concept without tokens. Why not say that Landforms (the name really isn't that good, sorry) were just rule changes in general, and included some with tokens? You know, like Landmarks. Channel for example doesn't seem to need the tokens on first glance, and I'm sure there will be cases where tokens are actually a bad idea.
I don't know, they just do. I liked having the idea of something that unified them, not just williy-nilly setup effects and other random stuff. You could also ask why Landmarks have to do with scoring, why they couldn't be anything else. I just found the token concept that works, and decided to roll with that. Now there are a lot of things that could be added with the tokens. For instance, "Setup: Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pie" could work under a Landform that has to do with spoils, or spiking expensive cards. I understand your criticism, but I really don't have good answers for them other than "That's the way I made them".

Regarding the name, I don't like it too, but any better ideas? "Features" could work but I want it specified to geographical ones, and that won't fit. I still like "Terrains", but calling a Delta a terrain seems like a big stretch, and downright wrong for other ones I have.  OTOH, Wolf Den isn't much of a Landmark.

Asper, you've made your criticism of the mechanic very clear, but now I'm interested if you have any opinions on the playability of the cards themselves? You mentioned Channel doesn't need to exist, bun anything else?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:56:39 am by ThetaSigma12 »
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 10:09:35 am »
+1

I know about Arena. I asked Donald why it wasn't an Event myself, and his answer was "I didn't think about it, and if I had, I would have still made it a Landmark because it goes with the others.". I never disagreed to that reasoning.

So, what keeps you from doing a Landform that says "Setup: Each player gains a Spoils." is the limitation to tokens. That's exactly my point. Not that giving yourself Spoils at the start is a great idea (I don't know actually), but that you lock yourself out of such effects by limiting Landforms to stuff with counter tokens. I mean, what if you want to design a setup effect later? Will you just introduce yet another type for that? Empires' Landmarks are all about Victory Points, true. But those points decide who wins the game. They are why you play the game, not just random effects. Either way, it's your idea and this isn't an official component, so nothing you do with this stops anyone from doing rules changes the way I suggested. If this is what you want, carry on.

I suggest something abstract, like expressions from politics, for example. I like the color scheme, btw.

Edit: I don't think either of these is a bad idea. They seem all fine (I actually would gladly trade Villa for Forest, if it didn't already exist). I just think you are limiting yourself too much with the token thing by saying Landshapes NEED to use tokens. More options means more Landforms means more reason to actually introduce a new mechanic.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 10:20:17 am »
+1

So, I like the idea, but the problem I see with the first three is that I would be surprised if it weren't strategically best to always activate those even if you don't need the benefit, just to deny it from your opponent when he actually needs them. It needs some benefit to your opponent if you use it or at least some disadvantage if you don't need it.

For example Coast would be better I think, if you add the clause "at the end of your buy phase, gain a Copper for each unused buy".

I like the second batch of 3 much better. Sorry if this was mentioned already, I haven't read through all the comments.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 11:50:54 am »
0

So, I like the idea, but the problem I see with the first three is that I would be surprised if it weren't strategically best to always activate those even if you don't need the benefit, just to deny it from your opponent when he actually needs them. It needs some benefit to your opponent if you use it or at least some disadvantage if you don't need it.

For example Coast would be better I think, if you add the clause "at the end of your buy phase, gain a Copper for each unused buy".
Yeah, that seems fair. The people I play with and I are reasonably low-level skill wise. I knew going into this that I easily could be missing some dominant strategy. There should be some mention of the fact that you're not always robbing your opponent. Sometimes you're robbing yourself, so I think there is more in there than just draining the tokens ASAP.

I like your fix for Coast and I'll look into similar fixes for others.

I know about Arena. I asked Donald why it wasn't an Event myself, and his answer was "I didn't think about it, and if I had, I would have still made it a Landmark because it goes with the others.". I never disagreed to that reasoning.

So, what keeps you from doing a Landform that says "Setup: Each player gains a Spoils." is the limitation to tokens. That's exactly my point. Not that giving yourself Spoils at the start is a great idea (I don't know actually), but that you lock yourself out of such effects by limiting Landforms to stuff with counter tokens. I mean, what if you want to design a setup effect later? Will you just introduce yet another type for that? Empires' Landmarks are all about Victory Points, true. But those points decide who wins the game. They are why you play the game, not just random effects. Either way, it's your idea and this isn't an official component, so nothing you do with this stops anyone from doing rules changes the way I suggested. If this is what you want, carry on.

I suggest something abstract, like expressions from politics, for example. I like the color scheme, btw.

Edit: I don't think either of these is a bad idea. They seem all fine (I actually would gladly trade Villa for Forest, if it didn't already exist). I just think you are limiting yourself too much with the token thing by saying Landforms NEED to use tokens. More options means more Landforms means more reason to actually introduce a new mechanic.
I think that's fair. Let me put it this way: Using tokens is a cool mechanic and it works, and I encourage you to try to make your own. However, I have no problem if you decide to make one with a simple setup effect, or with an infinite bonus.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 11:52:32 am »
0

My initial concern is that the tokens will go very quickly.  Once it becomes clear that one of the players can get any sort of advantage out of the landform, it becomes automatic for all the other players, and it will only impact 3 turns.

In the first couple turns, it's unclear whether any particular player could get an advantage, but I think some players will just use the landforms anyway, because they have little reason to think it will hurt at this point.  (See also: you used to be able to gain Engineers with Engineers, but in testing DXV found that some players just drained the pile automatically.)

I think the best landforms so far are the ones that have some sort of barrier to use, like having a non-Copper treasure or an action.  But I think the barriers could be even larger.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 12:28:30 pm »
0

My initial concern is that the tokens will go very quickly.  Once it becomes clear that one of the players can get any sort of advantage out of the landform, it becomes automatic for all the other players, and it will only impact 3 turns.

In the first couple turns, it's unclear whether any particular player could get an advantage, but I think some players will just use the landforms anyway, because they have little reason to think it will hurt at this point.  (See also: you used to be able to gain Engineers with Engineers, but in testing DXV found that some players just drained the pile automatically.)
Draining for no benefit is actually bad play (not always).

If we start with 6 tokens in a 2-player game, removing one and getting nothing means there are 5 left. Now it's my opponent's turn. If each of us uses the Landform each turn, then my opponent will get 3 uses and I will get 2. So by draining the first one, all I'm doing is taking one possible use away from myself (and not from the other players).

Once a token is removed the situation changes: With 5 tokens left, draining is always good: If you don't drain, then your opponent might get 3 more uses while you only get 2 no matter if you drain or not.

This makes draining less of a problem, but it also makes for somewhat automatic play; once you figured it out, you will just always drain on odd numbers and never on even numbers. I guess things get more complicated in multiplayer.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2017, 12:54:30 pm »
0

Okay, fair enough. So what if I changed them a bit? Delta and Field always have an effect, so they're good. Cavern usually does something, and it's hard to reliably drain them because you need a Treasure card and a non-Copper at that.
Channel: Maybe I should set a lower limit on discarding, like 2 or more cards. Lower than that it has almost no effect.
Forest: I'll change it to "when you have no Actions, you may remove a token from here for +1 Action". This makes it harder to drain, but you still could after, e.g. a militia with no other Action cards.
Coast: I'll go with Qvist's suggestion, "If you have an unused buy gain a Copper."
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2017, 10:51:36 am »
0


(Updates to previous Landforms)


Here's a simple one. It's kinda plain. It's like a simple Annex, you increase your cycling and you get a VP card. The Estate helps slow you down and makes it harder to drain.


Here's a really weird one. This doesn't actually give you any good benefits. In a way, it's the opposite of Cavern. Cavern makes your first few Silvers Golds, this makes your last few Golds Silvers. You get 5 Golds in, then they're only silver.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2017, 07:17:21 pm »
+1

Could you post text versions so we can read them easier?  In order to read the top row I have to click to make it full screen and then find the horizontal scroll bar at the bottom of the message and try to put it at a place where it shows all the text. (in other words, the small version is too small to read, and the big version is too big.)

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2017, 12:36:49 pm »
+1

Question - how did you make your Landform template?  I'm interested in mocking up fan landscape things that aren't Events or Landmarks.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2017, 01:36:41 pm »
+1

Question - how did you make your Landform template?  I'm interested in mocking up fan landscape things that aren't Events or Landmarks.
1: Find an Event template, IMO Asper's is the best.
2: Colorize it in GIMP, using whatever preferred colorizing tool, but don't just paint over it with a solid color.
3: Put it in a layer above a copy of the base Event template.
4: Delete all of the colorized template EXCEPT for the text box, name box, and type box.
5: Paint over the name in the upper right corner, and use Optimus Princeps to write the new name.
6: Tilt your name at 45 degrees and make sure it's scaled and placed right.
7: You should have 3 layers, colored event template with just the text boxes, event template, and name. Merge/group them and you're done!


Also, here's 2 more:

Quote
Abyss
When you play an Action card, you may remove a token from here, to put it onto your deck. If you did, each other player may gain a copy of it.

Quote
Countryside
Once per turn, at the start of your Clean-up phase, you may remove a token from here, to move the Seasons token back or forth one section
Both of these are untested.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2017, 05:11:47 pm »
+1

Whenever a player finishes playing Treasures in her buy phase, you may remove a token from here.  If you do, name a card, and players can't buy that card this turn.

Setup: Place 3 tokens here per player.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2017, 12:51:48 pm »
+1

So, Plains really ought to be an Event. That would actually be cleaner, as you could just tie the Chancellor to the Estate gaining, instead of sometimes having the Estates run out later (2 to 3 players), sometimes at the same time (4 to 5 players) and sometimes earlier than the tokens (6 players).

Edit: Uh, of course the player count isn't necessarily the only thing that will... de-syc the Estate gaining and chancellor effect. My bad.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2017, 04:18:18 pm »
+1

Also, Coast could just say "Once per turn, at the start of your cleanup phase, you may remove a token from here to gain a card costing at most the amount of $ you have unspent."
It DOES behave differently if you have more Potions in play than you have buys, but I believe it's a lot easier to process. Also, of course, this one also could be an Event (as long as you reference the cleanup phase the way e.g. Expedition does). Same goes for Delta (although it'd obviously have to give +2$ and would lack interaction with tfb and cards that let you play Treasures mid-turn).

I discourage mechanics that move the Season token forward, as it can mess up other players' opening buys. Moving it back IS a problem in some instances, but usually those are much milder. If I were to re-create Seasons, changing Plantation to only move the token backwards would be one of the things I'd do. But I'm not, so that's an aside.

One thing about Reef that worries me is that it'll easily be forgotten. You could solve it by only giving out debt (or taking tokens) if another player demands it (so that not taking any because it's forgotten isn't breaking the rules), but that again makes it political.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2017, 05:39:48 pm »
0

Re Plains: Yes, but for the reasons you mentioned, I think it's fine as a Terrain. I get your point about for some Landforms they could work as Events, but I think you're missing the fact that overall it's simpler.

Re Reef: Hmm, I think the other players reminding should be good enough, and there have been worse things that haven't killed the game.

Re Countryside: Okay, I'll change that.

Re Coast: Again, I think my version is fine? Your version is fine but I don't know if you're trying to say "This is better" or "Fun Fact: this works". If it's the former, I'd like to disagree, it it's the latter, I'll keep it in mind for possibly later down the line.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2017, 06:41:10 pm »
+1

Re Plains: Yes, but for the reasons you mentioned, I think it's fine as a Terrain. I get your point about for some Landforms they could work as Events, but I think you're missing the fact that overall it's simpler.
I really don't think it's simpler. Landforms are things you need to keep in mind all the time, because there is no set timing for them per se. If you can make a Landform as an Event, it means that instead of remembering it all the time, you can just look at it whenever it's your buy phase, and then say "Let's see, what does this do again?". I think this fact speaks in favor of using Events whenever possible - especially when you could leave out the tokens, as you could easily do here.

Re Coast: Again, I think my version is fine? Your version is fine but I don't know if you're trying to say "This is better" or "Fun Fact: this works". If it's the former, I'd like to disagree, it it's the latter, I'll keep it in mind for possibly later down the line.
I think it is better. Mostly because the Copper gaining feels awkward and people who don't think about using Landforms just to remove tokens would wonder why it is even there. There must be better ways than "If you use this without need, be punished.", and indeed I think a (more or less) atomic, positive instruction is such a way.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2017, 07:49:34 pm »
+1

I feel like this came up with Supplements: You're presenting an option and saying it's better and only 10% different, and thinking it should change. The origin of the disagreement does not originat e from me saying that it shouldn't change to a veesion thats better and 90% the same, it's me saykng that it's actually 20-25% different. To reference an analogy you used, it's like ordering a chocolate creme donut with sprinkles and not getting sprinkles. They could say "hey, it's 90% the same, just missing a few sprinkles", but no. To me the sprinkles are half of the reason I like it, and without them it doesnt work. Your Event Plains might seem like a vast improvement and with only a few minor changes to you, but to me it's a completley different card and it's only half what I wanted. We could discuss endlessly what the differences are and how often they matter, but in the end it's my card, and I feel like I'm entitled to say its not worth the change.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2017, 10:19:47 pm »
+1

Sure, have it your way. As you said, they are your ideas. I felt syncing Estates and chancellor-ing was a strict improvement, but apparently the "out of sync" thing were sprinkles. In other words: "It's not a bug, it's a feature."

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2017, 08:24:14 am »
+1

Hmm, I still have more I never got around to posting, but right now I don't know where to go with the type. I think what I'll do is make Landform a Subtype of landscape cards. All landforms will start with 3 tokens per player, and will have the color tan. This way some like Coast can be implimented as Events, a few like Tagia will be Landmarks, and the rest will be use Asper's Edicts (is that okay Asper?). For the ones that don't use 3 tokens per player, I'll rebalance them with 3 or just remove the tokens all together.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2017, 09:54:22 am »
+1

Hmm, I still have more I never got around to posting, but right now I don't know where to go with the type. I think what I'll do is make Landform a Subtype of landscape cards. All landforms will start with 3 tokens per player, and will have the color tan. This way some like Coast can be implimented as Events, a few like Tagia will be Landmarks, and the rest will be use Asper's Edicts (is that okay Asper?). For the ones that don't use 3 tokens per player, I'll rebalance them with 3 or just remove the tokens all together.
Sure you can. I probably would have drawn inspiration from some of them sooner or later, either way ;)
Edit: If we're being honest, I think I already did that.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2017, 02:49:50 pm »
+1

So I'll just run through and post them all with the changes I plan to make. But first, here's clarification on how I'm gonna change things up.

The type "Landform" will be changed to a subtype "Geographical" which will precede the type of Landscape card it is, i.e "Geographical Event, Geographical Edict". "Geographical" means that it will start with 3 tokens per player. I haven't decided if I'll actually write that on the card, on one hand, it will have the tan sub color to remind you, it won't matter if you put them on late, and Victory cards and 2 players gives some kind of precedence. OTOH, it can be easy to forget and Landmarks start with tokens and other stuff. Most of them will become Asper's Edicts, with some going elsewhere, and some removed period.


Probably no changes.

I'll make it Non-Victory so it works with 3 tokens, and an Event.

No changes, though I'm not a fan per se.

Event, if you have any non-Copper treasures in play remove a token for +

No changes, but it will be an Edict of course.

No changes.

I think I may just use the term "Refresh the tokens on here", and maybe use that again elsewhere.

An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

No moving token forward.

Maybe a bit like Asper's blessing, but I'll fix the typo.

No changes.

An event, discard a non-Copper take a Coin token. Actually, it may work without tokens as fix to Asper's Conserve.

No changes, though like Asper's Exploration.

I'm not that fond of the card, so major changes pending.

Maybe not even a Geographical card, but whatever.

Once per game: Replace an empty Kingdom Supply pile, event cost .

I need to change this one after playtesting, it should be once next turn, and react to an Action played from your hand.

Probably make the trigger anytime, though I dislike the similarity to Delta. Maybe if I switched Delta's abilities?

Pitched, it should be covered by the new Bog.

A normal event just with tokens.

No changes, not sideways.

Probably +3 Cards.

Too similar to Desert.

I'll go with Asp's version.

No changes, pending testing, though.

Just an event, maybe costs that lets you flip a landmark.

Fix typo. Should be wasteland.

Plain Edict, though I'd like to jazz it up. Something like "When you play a Gold, if you have no Copper in play, take "

Maybe needs changes.

I'm not sure if it needs to exist ATM.

Again, another trasher probably isn't what I need.

I'll make this a geographical Landmark.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2017, 08:35:20 am »
0


An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

You play 2 Contrabands and your opponent names Curse and Copper. What now? You can't enforce buys because of Contraband. There's a good reason it's worded that way.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2017, 09:16:38 am »
+1


An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

You play 2 Contrabands and your opponent names Curse and Copper. What now? You can't enforce buys because of Contraband. There's a good reason it's worded that way.

Yeah, it also doesn't work if the piles are empty or you have debt.
I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.

Edit: Or simply not use counter tokens, but some kind of penalty instead. As an Event costing 0$: Once per turn: +2 Buys, gain a Copper.

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2017, 04:32:50 pm »
0

Updated OP with images.

Still working on their theme. Most of them will need name/art changes now.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2017, 05:24:33 pm »
0


An Event, but with "You must use all of your buys" instead of icky copper gaining.

You play 2 Contrabands and your opponent names Curse and Copper. What now? You can't enforce buys because of Contraband. There's a good reason it's worded that way.

Prohibition beats Obligation (there's a quote by Donald somewhere). If it really bothers you, just make it "You must use all your buys, if able".

Also, the number of times this would be the optimal move is astoundingly low.

Not saying that enforcing buys is the right way to go, but this counterargument feels very tortured to me.
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Re: Landforms
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2017, 05:45:34 pm »
0

Yeah, it also doesn't work if the piles are empty
True cases both of you, but there are plenty of times when you're instructed to do something and you can't, as Pacovf said Prohibition beats Obligation. This seems obvious enough.
or you have debt.
Then how did you buy the Event?
I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.
That seems messier to me, but I guess it works. I could be won over if the current version doesn't work.
Edit: Or simply not use counter tokens, but some kind of penalty instead. As an Event costing 0$: Once per turn: +2 Buys, gain a Copper.
I've considered something along the lines of +3 Buys, you must use all, but it would probably be something separate, I like the Geographical version.
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Asper

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2017, 06:04:13 pm »
+2

or you have debt.
Then how did you buy the Event?
I suppose you just bought it before you bought something that gave you debt?

I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.
That seems messier to me, but I guess it works. I could be won over if the current version doesn't work.
I admit pacovf's reasoning has something to it. Actually, I guess my complaint is that all of this wouldn't be necessary if there weren't those tokens and the fear that you could spend them needlessly. Therefore, my second solution where you "pay" for that buy somehow.

ThetaSigma12

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Re: Landforms
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2017, 06:06:24 pm »
+1

or you have debt.
Then how did you buy the Event?
I suppose you just bought it before you bought something that gave you debt?
Oh that makes sense.
I still think this should simply give you a card costing up to what you have left at cleanup.
That seems messier to me, but I guess it works. I could be won over if the current version doesn't work.
I admit pacovf's reasoning has something to it. Actually, I guess my complaint is that all of this wouldn't be necessary if there weren't those tokens and the fear that you could spend them needlessly. Therefore, my second solution where you "pay" for that buy somehow.
Well, then I'd suggest you play with it. I think it's better with the tokens.
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