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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards  (Read 28141 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2016, 02:59:34 pm »
+2

Plan is still underrated, Market Square is still overrated. Wishing Well might be underrated too.

Re: BM strategy

Another BM strategy is playing 1 Copper every 4 minutes until your opponent resigns.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 03:01:25 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2016, 03:02:26 pm »
0

I think Catapult... kinda sucks? I tried to articulate reasons on Discord but I probably need some online games to back this one up.

Enchantress is easily a top 20 card. The Wharf draw is consistently great, and the attack can be devastating on certain boards particularly when combined with a discard attack. It really fucks up early game trashing and it basically completely changes how you approach a board.

Expedition is also really good, but maybe there's nowhere higher to put it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2016, 03:05:25 pm »
+3

They can't all be the most accurately ranked cards ever.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2016, 03:08:34 pm »
0

Isn't Catapult perfectly fine though? It's a slow trasher but it gives you econ and a lot of the time it Militias your opponent.
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2016, 03:30:57 pm »
+1

Catapult: One thing that makes Catapult difficult to rank is that it's so very bad against itself.  Trashing is weaker when you just would have discarded those cards anyway.  And having a Catapult in a three-card hand is really sad.  Maybe this means Catapult feels weaker than it is, because I'm more focused on how it benefits me than how it hurts the opponent.

Plan: Plan is like a cantrip trasher that you have in hand every turn, but which can only trash if you buy the right card.  Often there's a cheap card around that you want a few copies of anyway.

Gladiator: Contrary to what was said in the video, I think Fortune should hardly be considered when ranking Gladiator.  It has the weakest synergy of all the split piles.  When Fortune is revealed, everyone can get nearly the same use out of it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2016, 03:53:45 pm »
0

Interesting to see how much disagreement there is about Catapult. I can imagine that it's hard to rank.

Good to see Guide is steadily dropping, because it's really mediocre.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2016, 04:06:28 pm »
0

Chariot Race is better than Wishing Well. Plan should be a little higher. I'm okay with where Market Square is, but I think it's still a little underrated.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2016, 04:18:07 pm »
0

I think Enchantress should be higher.  It curbstomps any sort of BM strategy that plays one terminal Action per turn.

But, because we often play against humans with brains, the money player adjusts and buys a few more terminal actions.  The Enchantress attack probably does the most work against Potion-cost cards: Familiar, Scrying Pool, Apothecary, Alchemist.  I think Enchantress belongs in the middle of the pack.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2016, 04:50:10 pm »
0

Catapult and Chariot Race are too high. Market Square could be a bit lower. Gladiator could be a bit higher.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2016, 05:07:06 pm »
+3

chariot race is kinda good. the few times i have played with it, deck construction doesn't actually matter as much as i thought it would (spoilers: empires has a lot of engine mirrors, as we imagined) but in practice it activates a little bit less than half the time; in an engine mirror, as far as i've observed, there is rarely a way to reasonably increase the average cost of your deck, and also debt/potion/the "less than" restriction pushes it down a little bit, and there is rarely a way to cheat (your spies probably should have just been more chariot races)


that said, i mean, +$.4/+.4VP is busto
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2016, 05:24:31 pm »
+2

Plan: Plan is like a cantrip trasher that you have in hand every turn, but which can only trash if you buy the right card.  Often there's a cheap card around that you want a few copies of anyway.

Well said!  It's also important to think about Plan in terms of shuffles.  You'll want to buy Plan on turn 1 or 3, so you know what you're going to buy (and trash) on turns 2 or 4, respectively.  So, Plan has an immediate effect of trashing an Estate or Curse from your deck.  That effect alone might be worth $3 and a buy.  But that isn't the end, of course.  Plan can trash additional cards on future turns.  Most boards have a cheap card that you intend to buy multiple copies of.  Plan works best in conjunction with a Copper trasher, or in situations where you don't want/need to trash Coppers.

Let's make two comparisons to help you grok Plan:

Compare Plan with a good non-terminal flexible trasher like Raze or Lookout:
+ Plan can trash one shuffle earlier (huge!)
- Multiple Plans don't stack like multiple Razes or Lookouts, but it works equally well in conjunction with another trasher
+ Plan never misses shuffles and is always available for use.
- You need to buy a specific action card to trash with Plan.
+ A single Plan can trash multiple cards per turn with multiple buys (edge-casey)
- Plan cannot be gained midturn (edge-casey)
+ Plan doesn't clog up a lategame deck like Lookout
- Plan doesn't accelerate cycling like Lookout
. Compared to Raze, Plan is worse at Estate trashing, but better at Copper or Curse trashing.
Plan is almost as good as Raze & Lookout.  Better in some situations, worse in others.

Compare Plan with Bonfire:
- Plan trashes one fewer junk card immediately (before the next shuffle)
+ Plan can trash an Estates and Curses
+ Plan can trash many more cards in the long run
There are plenty of situations where Plan is better than Bonfire.  Experience with Ambassador has taught us that thinning two Copper is slightly better than thinning one Estate.  At least, in situations where Ambassador is in the kingdom and you have it.  But that isn't the whole story with Plan, because you can trash more cards with a single Plan than with a single Bonfire, but all trashes but the first are delayed.

I hope I have demonstrated that Plan is of similar value to strong (but not elite) trashers like Lookout and Bonfire (which, incidentally, haven't appeared in the $3 card list yet).
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2016, 08:08:54 pm »
+1

Most of these I had pretty close to where they are in this list, but I had Gladiator #12 (it's a terminal gold the majority of the time -not bad for $3), Doctor #37, and Catapult #7. I also had Bonfire lower than most of these.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2016, 09:06:38 pm »
0

Plan is basically "+1 Card, + 1 Action, trash a card from your hand" for $3 when you buy the card with the Trashing Token on it. It's lack of economy production when trashing stuff is the main drawback that I noticed on it.

Edit: oh wait, this was already said by trivialknot.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 09:08:59 pm by markusin »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2016, 04:02:19 am »
0

Chariotnrace when you have all the peddlers is nice
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2016, 11:18:46 pm »
+5

So, Catapult.  I think this card is significantly better than its current placement.  I'll try to explain why.

Disclaimer: I've only played a few games with Catapult, and this card is especially hard to grok.  I'm not surprised that it has a high deviation.

If your gut reaction is that Catapult is a weak card, please recognize that it is a thinner + attack card.  The only other thinner + attack cards (Ambassador + Mercenary) happen to be some of the strongest cards in the game.  Catapult may not be as powerful of those cards, but it is in elite company.  The thinner + attack cards are deceptively powerful, because they improve your deck while making it difficult for your opponent to improve their deck.  To a new Dominion player, playing Ambassador might feel like it isn't accomplishing much: you often end with two bad cards in hand and nothing to buy.  Despite this subjective feeling, Ambassador is one of the most potent cards in all of Dominion.  Urchin/Mercenary is similar.  It doesn't feel powerful to buy and play weak cantrips multiple turns in a row.  It doesn't even feel great to play a Mercenary and end up with $4 or something.  Yet, pursuing Mercenary is correct on most boards.  These thinner + attack cards don't feel as powerful as they are.  Catapult is no exception.

I'm going to divide all kingdoms (involving Catapult) into three types: those where Catapult is the only Estate/Curse trasher, those with another single-target Estate/Curse trasher, and those with an elite multi-card trasher.

Catapult as only Estate/Curse trasher
Catapult can give out Curses.  If player A goes for Catapult and player B doesn't, player B will have Curses in their deck that they can't trash.  How fast can Catapult reliably give out Curses?  Consider a baseline strategy of only using the base cards and the Catapult/Rocks pile.  Player A buys Catapult on turns 1-5 and Rocks on turns 6-10 (unless they get an unlucky $3 hand).  Ideally, Player A trashes Estates on turn 3 & 4 (sometimes Catapults collide, or miss the shuffle, or miss Estates).  Starting on turn 5, Catapult collisions will be more common.  The first two times Catapults collide, player A trashes Catapult with Catapult and gives out a Curse.  By turn 7, the Catapult player will have given out at least one Curse.  This is on par with Witch BM with a 3/4 opening.  Available starting with turn 8, Rocks become a top trash priority, which junk, reduce handsize, and provide +$3 for player A.  Indeed, almost every turn from turn 8 onward will either junk (trashing a colliding Catapult), reduce handsize (trashing a Copper), or both (trashing Rocks or Silver).  Trashing all of the Rocks and two Catapults will give out seven Curses (realistic by turn 15).  That is an oppressive amount of junk.  Plus, player B will often be subject to handsize attacks.  Player B won't be buying many Provinces.  Player A, meanwhile, is steadily improving his economy with the Silver from Rock gains and trashes (10 total).  Player A can either rush Duchies (two other piles will easily empty) or buy a few Golds and go for Provinces.

And this is just a baseline.  There are other kingdom cards that can help the Catapult player (villages, card draw, sifting, gainers).  Catapult is going to be the dominant strategy on most of these boards.  Exceptions include especially potent defensive cards (e.g. Watchtower), powerful junkers that can give out Curses faster (e.g. Young Witch w weak bane), and fast strategies that aren't crippled by attacks (e.g. Rebuild).

Catapult with another Estate/Curse trasher
Suppose the kingdom includes another card that can trash Estates and Curses, like: Ratcatcher, Raze, Lookout, Forager, Amulet, Hermit, Salvager, Junk Dealer, etc...  Might it be best to avoid Catapult?  I think not.  In most cases, opening Catapult + other trasher (or Silver to get a $5 trasher) will be dominant.  Why?  Catapult isn't especially good at trashing Estates and Curses, but it is very strong when it trashes Copper.  Having one of the aforementioned trashers frees up Catapult to trash Coppers almost exclusively.  The handsize attack will really slow down your opponent.  Have you ever tried to ignore Urchin in favor of a non-elite trasher?  It's really painful to discard down to three when you're trying to trash.  Either you give up on trashing, or you spend your turn doing nothing but trashing a single card.  Playing against Catapult can be similar.  Buying a Catapult of your own won't solve the problem, but now you and your opponent will suffer together.

Exceptions exist, of course.  If you open with a power $5 trasher like Junk Dealer or Sentry, you can probably ignore Catapult.  Masquerade draws, which means it combines poorly with other trashers and it can mitigate Catapult's attack.  With Masquerade, you still might want to pick up a Catapult later on if you can orchestrate a handsize attack followed by Masquerade.  I have no idea how Jack of all Trades and Catapult get along.  Jack can counter the Catapult attack, but Jack loves Copper trashing and Catapult likes Silver gaining, so maybe they are a potent combination.  Are there Copper-trashers that outclass Catapult in these situations?  I'm not sure.  Spice Merchant and Counterfeit stand a chance.  It will probably depend on the rest of the kingdom.

Catapult with an elite trasher
Suppose the kingdom includes a card or event that can trash multiple cards in one turn: Donate, Chapel, Ambassador, Steward, Remake, etc...  Here, Catapult is not a very strong opening.  Even if the Catapult player gets lucky and hits the Chapel player with a handsize attack with their Chapel in hand, they can still trash two cards of their choice, while the Catapult player needs to trash Copper and not Estates to keep the attack going.  It's a losing battle.  Catapult is even worse against the two-card trashers; the discard attack is almost useless.  Still, Catapult isn't a dead card on these boards.  It might be worth picking up a Catapult after the thinning phase for payload, especially if there is an easy way to gain $3+ cards.

Catapult is a strong card in almost every kingdom.  It is usually game-warping if it's the only card that can trash Curses.  It is a strong Copper trasher in combination with an Estate/Curse trasher.  And in the rare kingdoms where it is too slow to trash, it can still be valuable as payload.  Similar to Ambassador and Urchin, it might not be pleasant to play with or against Catapult, but that is a consequence of its strength, not its weakness.
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2016, 12:38:35 am »
+1

it might not be pleasant to play with or against Catapult
I disagree with this part.
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Chris is me

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2016, 07:42:09 am »
0

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2016, 08:44:14 am »
+1

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.

That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.

So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2016, 09:24:44 am »
0

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.

That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.

So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!

Yeah, but... with a better trasher, you can trash 2 cards and it doesn't matter that your turn was a wash anyway. And when you aren't attacked (which isn't every turn), you have more space to actually build other stuff in. If there's no better trasher, yeah Catapult is nicer than Trade Route, no disputing that.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2016, 11:23:19 am »
+1

Something you should consider is just how bad Catapult is when you're also being attacked. Basically none of that strategy works reliably if your hand has to be Catapult / Junk / Good Card, and committing to a full Catapult strategy like that doesn't leave you much, if any, economy to do anything else.

Look guys, Catapult kinda sucks. You'll see. It's not Mercenary.

That doesn't make Catapult bad, maybe it makes you dislike Catapult games because they're slower. The mirror scenario is very uninteresting when evaluating the strength of the card since that means buying Catapult has been a good choice there.

So maybe you should consider how bad your trade route is when you're opponent is using catapults!

Yeah, but... with a better trasher, you can trash 2 cards and it doesn't matter that your turn was a wash anyway. And when you aren't attacked (which isn't every turn), you have more space to actually build other stuff in. If there's no better trasher, yeah Catapult is nicer than Trade Route, no disputing that.

What made me initially think Catapult is weak is that you have to give up a $3 or more card without playing that card on the same turn to give out a Curse. What I hadn't considered is that Catapult is good at trashing itself, and buying lots of Catapults helps get to Rocks. But then, you're buying multiple $3s just to give out curses semi-reliably. I'd only consider this if I'm anticipating a sloggish game where I want a bunch of Silvers from Rocks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2016, 12:14:56 pm »
0

This is now going into the realm of spitballing and not as much experience, but I think at least before the later game, the Cursing is more defensive than offensive. You basically force them to not attack you once to clear the Curse you gave them, in exchange for a relatively cheap Buy at some point. That isn't a great tradeoffto do offensively unless you have an engine built that can sustain that. But before you're thin and built up, you can chuck a Catapult as a quick measure to buy you a full turn in the future to get more expensive components into your deck, like that Market you need to sustain buying Rocks or Silver later.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2016, 12:29:13 pm »
0

Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2016, 01:02:46 pm »
0

Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.

I'm trying to highlight "attack as a means of preventing a future attack" vs "attack as a means of crippling the opponent's turn directly"
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2016, 01:18:22 pm »
+2

Attacking in general is more defensive than offensive. Buying victory cards is offensive.

I'm trying to highlight "attack as a means of preventing a future attack" vs "attack as a means of crippling the opponent's turn directly"
Those 2 things are almost always the same thing.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2016 Edition: $3 Cards
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2016, 05:08:52 pm »
+1

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