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Author Topic: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?  (Read 8137 times)

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ehunt

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what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« on: November 03, 2013, 10:05:22 am »
+2

For example, Minion seems quite a bit weaker, although I can't put my finger on why.

Also, moat has improved quite a bit from base alone, or even base + intrigue
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 10:14:25 am by ehunt »
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Davio

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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 10:15:57 am »
+1

Watchtower got a big boost with Dark Ages. :)
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 10:31:59 am »
0

Watchtower got a big boost with Dark Ages. :)
Dark Ages changed a lot of cards; Ambassador, Hunting Party, Swindler, Upgrade, Fairgrounds, etc.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 10:57:37 am »
+3

Tough question, I'm not sure about Minion, but I agree. It's probably as there are many very strong $5 attacks that were released since then.

Clearest choice is Watchtower as already mentioned. Draw up to X got stronger (see Library below) and the trash-on-gain is extremly useful since Dark Ages.

* Scout - it gets worse and worse, but at the same time more popular (this is only half-joking as it's basically an Intrigue-only card and we have Vagrant now)
* Tribute - for basically the same reason
* Moneylender - got worse, it was one of the strongest cards of the Base set is only mediocre now, especially compared to Spice Merchant which is often superior
* Alchemist - not sure on that one, but it shines especially on longer (Colony) boards and Hinterlands made the games faster (Jack,Embassy,FG,...), but even with Dark Ages it's not that often the strongest card on the board anymore.
* Library - also not sure on that one, but the Base Set it was only really shining with Festival or against Militia, but with strong discarding attacks out there and a lot of benefiting cards that discard or strong cards that don't draw like Fishing Village, Warehouse, Oasis, Hamlet, Squire, Necropolis, Plaza to name a few.
* Venture - another one I'm not sure of, but when I started playing Dominion it was much loved and called a very strong card, but it seems much weaker now, probably as the games are more enginey.

As mentioned Dark Ages changed a lot. I like to add Baron (nearly useless with Shelters), Silk Road (less strong with Shelters)

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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 11:27:40 am »
0

Chapel, it used to be -the- trashing card, but now it's just one of many (that happens to be faster than others).
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2013, 01:23:39 pm »
+3

I think that workshop and ironworks have gotten better (okay, ironworks was already pretty good). Later expansions seem to just have better cards in the $3-$4 range. Or maybe I've just gotten better at using them.
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GendoIkari

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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 05:45:51 pm »
+8

Province has gotten worse. There's a lot more ways to win without Provinces now than there were earlier on.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 08:48:34 am »
+1

Watchtower got a big boost with Dark Ages. :)
It's pretty good in Guilds too. The draw-to-X part is good with Candlestick Maker and Plaza. You can top-deck your Butcher, Stonemason, and Masterpiece gains. You can trash Coppers bought with Merchant Guild. It may even be the best defense against Soothsayer.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 09:41:44 am »
+2

Watchtower got a big boost with Dark Ages. :)
It's pretty good in Guilds too. The draw-to-X part is good with Candlestick Maker and Plaza. You can top-deck your Butcher, Stonemason, and Masterpiece gains. You can trash Coppers bought with Merchant Guild. It may even be the best defense against Soothsayer.

You can trash your Masterpiece and Stonemason, and still gain the extras that they come with.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2013, 10:03:15 am »
0

Dark Ages really helped Cornucopia out, in general. Especially Menagerie and Harvest. I guess Hunting Party, not so much....
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2013, 11:44:07 am »
0

Scout. The more Victory cards there are, the better he gets!

Also, money. I've been thinking about writing an article about moneyless (or very low on money) decks. They aren't super common, but they do actually exist out there.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2013, 12:53:46 pm »
0

Scout. The more Victory cards there are, the better he gets!

This may be a joke. But, it is almost certainly false, if only because every expansion since Intrigue (besides Hinterlands) has decreased the density of alt-VP cards out of all the kingdom cards. After Base and Intrigue, there were 5 alt-VP cards out of 50 kingdom cards (1/10). Here's the rest:

Seaside: 1/26
Alchemy: 1/12
Prosperity: 0/25 (plus Colony)
Cornucopia: 1/13
Hinterlands: 3/26 = 0.12, slightly higher than Base + Intrigue
Dark Ages: 1.1/35 (including 0.1 for Dame Josephine plus, fewer starting Victory cards with Shelters)
Guilds: 0/13
Promo: 0/5

Total: 12.1/205 = 0.06
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 03:01:54 pm »
+4

They have, however, increased the probability that the Kingdom is 9 Victory cards, plus Scout.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2013, 04:01:16 am »
0

They have, however, increased the probability that the Kingdom is 9 Victory cards, plus Scout.

Quite frankly, in that situation, I'm still not sure that buying scout would be a good idea. I'm not sure what the hell an optimal strategy would be on a board like that but if silk road is on the board you probably want every buy to be either a treasure card or a victory card.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2013, 04:57:45 am »
0

Are Scout/Harem or Scout/Nobles any better than plain BM? I doubt it, but simulation required.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2013, 05:27:58 am »
+1

Are Scout/Harem or Scout/Nobles any better than plain BM? I doubt it, but simulation required.
Nobles/BM > Scout/Nobles engine > BMU. The optimal number of Scouts for Scout/Nobles seems to be 0, but it still beats BMU pretty easily when it buys Scouts when 50% of the deck are Victory cards, and by a small difference when it buys Scouts when 33% of the deck are Victory cards.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2013, 06:01:09 pm »
+5

Are Scout/Harem or Scout/Nobles any better than plain BM? I doubt it, but simulation required.
Nobles/BM > Scout/Nobles engine > BMU. The optimal number of Scouts for Scout/Nobles seems to be 0, but it still beats BMU pretty easily when it buys Scouts when 50% of the deck are Victory cards, and by a small difference when it buys Scouts when 33% of the deck are Victory cards.

I believe the optimal number of Scouts for most Scouts/<X> strategies is 0.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 08:29:24 am »
+5

I think Remodel is one of those. In base set, it's usually a bad card. But expansions added :
- New good targets for Copper/Curse => $2 (Fool's gold, Vagrant, Hamlet, Squire, Pawn…). Much better than cellar or moat…
- New cards which are interesting to remodel into Province (Border village, Peddler, late game Hunting grounds), or something else (Masterpiece => $5…)
- New cards with on-trash abilities (Dark Age…)
- Overall good engine cards, and remodel is nice in engines (draw more, more choice)
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 08:43:50 am »
0

Are Scout/Harem or Scout/Nobles any better than plain BM? I doubt it, but simulation required.
Nobles/BM > Scout/Nobles engine > BMU. The optimal number of Scouts for Scout/Nobles seems to be 0, but it still beats BMU pretty easily when it buys Scouts when 50% of the deck are Victory cards, and by a small difference when it buys Scouts when 33% of the deck are Victory cards.
Well, the gist of the matter is: When you've accumulated enough victory cards to make Scout remotely useful, you're already winning by virtue of those victory cards.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 02:29:29 pm »
0

I think Remodel is one of those. In base set, it's usually a bad card. But expansions added :
- New good targets for Copper/Curse => $2 (Fool's gold, Vagrant, Hamlet, Squire, Pawn…). Much better than cellar or moat…
- New cards which are interesting to remodel into Province (Border village, Peddler, late game Hunting grounds), or something else (Masterpiece => $5…)
- New cards with on-trash abilities (Dark Age…)
- Overall good engine cards, and remodel is nice in engines (draw more, more choice)
I think that Remodel was criminally under-appreciated in base, but I agree that it's gotten better. Its gameplay gained a new dimension of combo potential when later expansions started included card-cost shenanigans, like Highway, Peddler, and Border Village.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 03:14:17 pm »
0

The only card that really does work well with Scout is Great Hall.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 03:19:37 pm »
0

The only card that really does work well with Scout is Great Hall.

Scout is also the biggest bang for your buck in terms of enabling Mystic. I have had success with that combo.
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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2013, 03:24:47 pm »
0

The only card that really does work well with Scout is Great Hall.

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Re: what early cards have changed the most, given expansions?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 04:33:44 pm »
+2

Wishing Well can become a $3 Lab

Scout + Wishing Well has never been terribly exciting to me...

shark_bait draws 3 Copper, Scout, and Wishing Well
shark_bait plays Scout
shark_bait reveals 4 Copper
shark_bait places 4 cards back on top of the deck
shark_bait plays Wishing Well
shark_bait draws 1 card
shark_bait wishes for Copper
shark_bait reveals a Copper
shark_bait draws a Copper
shark_bait plays 5 Copper

michaeljb draws 5 Copper
michaeljb plays 5 Copper

Obviously it's better if your Scout does pick up a Victory card, but still...
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