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[EFHW]

Regarding yuma reacting hostilely to suspicions against him - He is correct it has only happened between us in a couple games.  Pirates II must have made a very big impression on me.  However, going through the games we have played together I find that he is almost never seriously suspected, but when he is, he does respond more aggressively than his other posts in the same game.  Some examples:

Vote:Yuma for having a plan but actually being unclear on whether it's a plan or not. I still don't know!

of course it is a plan. I said it was a plan. So it is a plan! What do you take me for?

Unvote

While this gives Yuma a lot of town credit, I'm still not considering him 100% IC.  Maybe like 85%!

really... well I am inclined to vote: nkirbit just for that. You really think that putting everyone up to L-1 is the way to do this? Alright. Let's start with you.

The fact that yuma is against the plan and claims his role isn't on the wiki makes me more interested in following it.  Because if my theory is right, chairs is a Mentor and yuma is his Mentee, and yuma has to do everything in his power to not let chairs die.

then lynch me, see that I am town and be done with it. Seriously. If you think that I would rather go to the grave than have chairs die. (already anticipating you saying "further evidence!!! yuma would rather die as a mentee than watch his mentor die!!!) But seriously, let's hunt mafia... rather than go off on wild goose chases...

vote: voltgloss

This one is really long, so I'll just post the link:

Add to this his aggressive response in this game ....

Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.

I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.

Back that up. Right now. Back it up.

I don't think it is inaccurate to say that yuma comes on very strong when suspected.  As I said before, I don't think this is scummy or bad play.  I am pointing it out b/c I think this strategy may make people less likely to vote for him.

[EFHW]

quote fail.  You get the idea.

[EFHW]

Regarding the scumminess of having many suspicions and not stating any townreads, you are deciding to see that as scummy by imagining a scenario in which it could be.  I see that as scumhunting.  If I had a townread, I would say it.  It would hardly be helpful for me to state townreads I don't have.  You yourself have played similarly:

From LOTR2 (a 13 player game):

I am also comfortable waiting until Day 3 to proceed further with massclaim.

If TA feels the same, then I will issue my challenge.  If not, I will wait until after massclaim concludes.

Yuma seems to be quick to issue suspicions today, and I haven't really heard him call anyone (but chairs) towny. Even with me and nkirbit it seemed to me more like he was thanking us for helping his agenda further rather than giving us any town points.

I am always quick to issue with suspicion. You know that. I had called arch townie previous to his lying (based mostly off my following result). I find you townie, based off your claim and further evidence that chairs is town. Other than that... I don't know. Oh... mcmc I think is town.

[EFHW]

I have done a lot of posting in Day 2.  I know you are busy, but neglecting that makes it look like you are only looking for what you can call scummy, not trying to figure out if I am actually scum or not.

[EFHW]

Regarding my being paranoid.  I am clearly still affected by my Pirates experience, but this post in particular reminded me of then and prompted me to wonder if you are taking opportunities to suggest to town that I shouldn't be listened to.

Is the only reason I am not voting for eevee because the other voter is EFHW? Maybe... but is that bad? No. I think eevee had a valid point about robz and don't see it as scummy...

so maybe there isn't mafia on Walrus? Or maybe Walrus is mafia...?

I am going back to vote: EFHW

This post on it's own would be innocuous, but coming after the other one, italso caught my eye.

Now the wagon on me... it's already late D1, and the wagons on Robz and Walrus don't seem to end in a lynch. Scum needs a viable lynch candidate that isn't them. yuma has been pushing me a long time, and is perceived as a good player and a driving force by town. Agreeing with him will not look too bad, even if he's wrong. I think scum is likely to jump this wagon now, and that makes mail-mi and chairs look quite suspicious.

This is a very good point, if you are town. I am very interested in seeing what players who I have townier reads on (robz, walrus and voltaire to an extent think of this case) because it is concerning when the only players agreeing with me are on the scummier side... one seemingly doing so for survival reasons...

Basically I am looking for your strategies and calling them out when I see them b/c they are effective and I seem to be your target in this game.

[EFHW]

FINALLY, you are still relying on this initial case you made on me that was based entirely on my having a null read on one person and a scum read on another person who had defended my nullread.  I backed you up on this in that I see the value in alerting town to possible warning signs, but voting me on that basis and then consistently calling me scummy from there on is excessive, and scummy.

vote: yuma.

[Teproc]

Catching up, I'l respond to stuff along the way.

2. Chairs/Teproc - [...] i disagree with giving yuma town points for soft deadline suggestions, as he does that in every game

I don't think I've been giving him town points for that, rather for initiating the claims discussion, which might not be a good thing to give townie points over either though.

I just looked back through all of EFHW's posts today and there was nothing about Eevee there, so it must be in regard to this post... vote: EFHW

This is false. EFHW has expressed suspicion (and voted for) Eevee day 1 because of his response to Robz "this wagon will dissipate anyway" comment.

[Teproc]

ok, ok, I was always going to explain. 

My vote is partly decided impressionistically, but to spell out what am observing:

1. The post feels carefully constructed, with an even balance of scummy and town reads.
2. He doesn't refresh or even remind us of the case on Walrus, just says his scum read continues.
3. chairs didn't out b/c of town frustration, he didn't have time to play the game.
4. "for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though."  Gratuitous jab and retraction.
5.  Says I haven't done anything towny.  I may not be great at theory, but I've been actively trying to sort out town's best interests,
6.  "rest in peace robz, we will avenge you" and "poor faust".  I know Eevee is a nice guy, but these comments feel a bit staged?

Am I reading too much into this post?  Maybe, but that's how it struck me.

This vote doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

1, 4 and 6 basically all boil down to : Eevee's post feels staged.
2. That's true.
4. chairs certainly seemed frustrated to me. I don't think Eevee's assessment is wrong enough to be scummy here.
5. So, you're voting Eevee because he doesn't think you're townie enough ? I think there's a name for that...

It feel's like you scrambled to make your vote seems less OMGUSy than it is because you got called on it.

[Teproc]

vote: Eevee again. The walrus case was a good one D1, but I don't think it's good for D2, and I don't like how he's pushing it.

Hey, mail-mi sees a weak case against someone lynchable and jumps in ! How surprising !

[Teproc]

quote author=yuma link=topic=9669.msg312163#msg312163 date=1384052340]
So in summary:

I find EFHW scummy for:

1. having no townreads throughout all of day1.
2. being overly paranoid about being perceived as scummy.
3. using AtE with me and then not responding when I noted that her statement was false.
4. probably more stuff from day2. I haven't gone back and looked at day2 yet. Baby is about to wake up so don't have time.
[/quote]

1. So, EFHW hasn't had a town read in the game. This is true IIRC.

How is that scummy ? Being suspicious of everyone seems like the definition of town to me.

Well, you answered that actually, but it seems like a stretch to me. Isn't scum more likely to actively have town reads on people because then these people will think : "Oh, he/she's so perceptive and sees I'm town !"

2. This is what's worrying me. This vote against Eevee reads as barely disguised OMGUS, and she had one or two of those already day 1.

3. Do you mean not responding day 1 ? I think she did, and specified Pirates was the one she was talking about. I'l have to reread that exchange.

[Teproc]

Regarding yuma reacting hostilely to suspicions against him - He is correct it has only happened between us in a couple games.  Pirates II must have made a very big impression on me.  However, going through the games we have played together I find that he is almost never seriously suspected, but when he is, he does respond more aggressively than his other posts in the same game.  Some examples:

You do realize all of these come from a game in which yuma was town ?

You do realize your goal here should be to prove us that this behavior is indicative of scum!yuma, not just of yuma not liking being accused ?

[Teproc]

FINALLY, you are still relying on this initial case you made on me that was based entirely on my having a null read on one person and a scum read on another person who had defended my nullread.  I backed you up on this in that I see the value in alerting town to possible warning signs, but voting me on that basis and then consistently calling me scummy from there on is excessive, and scummy.

vote: yuma.

For everyone, here is the exchange we are talking about here :

vote: EFHW

Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...

Well, this is pretty interesting.  It's so early I have no read on Robz.  Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment.  So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him.  Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him?  I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.

middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)

last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town.  He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.

Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.

And EFHW's response :

yuma - do you realize that almost anytime I say you are even a bit scummy you come out in a strong attack against me?  Also, I didn't follow mcmc's game.  You are saying I: 1. had a null read, 2. wanted to look for useful information in that person's wagon, and 3. found someone scummy for their defense of my null read.  These are very common events in a mafia game. 

Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on.  I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post.  Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations.  You both responded with long posts and votes against me. 

Where is the "I backed you up" comment here ?

Saying that his case against you is just a series of event that are common in a mafia game is ridiculous. Let's do this with your case against yuma :
1. He found you scummy
2. He continued finding you scumm
3. Honestly, that's pretty much it.

If it feels like I was misrepresenting you there, it's because I was. Just like you were in the quote above. Saying that a case is just a series of likely events is an awful defense.
I'm omitting your "yuma is reactive when called out as scum" because, as your quotes proves, this is not indicative of yuma being scum.

So this looks like yet another OMGUS vote. That's not good. I don't think yuma's case is strong, but your reaction is just so weird to me that I can't help but be tempted to vote for you...

mail-mi still exists though, so I'm not doing that just yet. Seriously people, he his scum and you are allowing to just ignore me altogether because he seems to be lynchproof today.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote Count 2.4:

Voltaire (1): Walrus
Mail-mi (1): Teproc
Eevee (1): mail-mi
EFHW (1): Yuma
Yuma (1): EFHW

Not Voting (2): Eevee, Voltaire

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.

[Eevee]

Vote: mail-mi

[mail-mi]

Vote: mail-mi

OMGUS.

[Eevee]

Vote: mail-mi

OMGUS.

Well, I was voicing suspicion of you way before you decided to vote for me without giving reasons, so that's be very true.

[EFHW]

Teproc you are missing my points.  yuma asked for evidence of his being aggressive when suspected.  That's why I provided it.  I don't think it makes him scummy, and I said so.  I think he uses that to keep from being accused and I am pointing it out to town b/c if he is scum that is a powerful defense if not recognized.  I voted for yuma, but most of those posts were my defense against his attack, not my case against him.

My vote on Eevee is not OMGUS.  Day 1 he hadn't suspected me at all.  And his post feeling staged was what I was trying to show.  Also, I felt he misrepresented me and I said so. 

The post where I backed up yuma's decision to mention the similarity with Theorel comes later (see below).  And show me what else besides that he includes in his "case"?  Later he brings up my vote on Eevee, but that's not in the post he where he votes me.  I've bolded the actions on my part that he says led him to make this post: I had a middling read on Robz, wondered about the wagon, and suspected Eevee who had defended Robz.  That's it.

vote: EFHW

Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...

Well, this is pretty interesting.  It's so early I have no read on Robz.  Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment.  So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him.  Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him?  I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.

middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)

last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town.  He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.

Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.

Me backing up yuma's decision to mention the parallel with Theorel.  Note also that I defend faust, who was town, against yuma, who pushed him that entire day:

Having read yuma's case and followed up all his links, I think points 5 and 6 obviously hold water.  These are both verifiably true and require no spin to agree with.  I think his #4 point also has some validity to it.  yuma's discussion of Walrus was judicious and did not read like spinning to me. 

Point #3 was just false, something I was going to point out also.  #2 is yuma's pet peeve, I don't get much information from it myself.  If he was close to lynch, yes, that would be anti-town.  This seemed like a joke. 

#1 is about spinning.  faust said yuma's case against me was constructed, and I agree.  I happen to also agree with yuma that was worth mentioning, b/c town doesn't want to get hoodwinked by such shenanigans, and pointing this out is a deterrent just in case I am scum.  But I am asserting that getting a scumread on me on that basis is spin on yuma's part and imo certainly merited faust's pointing it out, and he was not the only one.

So, do I think yuma is town making the best case he can according to his perceptions, or do I think he is scum and trying to get a mislynch?  His approach to me has felt so scummy.  But I am also noticing his having strong town reads, which in a small game would be risky for scum.  They want any mislynch they can get, and having strong town reads burns bridges. 

I am going to withhold judgment on yuma.  I am not convinced about faust, and the people voting for faust (mail-mi and chairs) don't seem to be basing their votes on this case at all.  They both seem to prefer to vote impressionistically, meaning they rarely articulate reasons.  I'm sticking with my chairs vote.

Also, while I'm at it, here is what I actually said about my vote on Robz.  I was completely straightforward about the vote being OMGUS.  Robz had voted me with no explanation, I copied him and hoped to get some response.

unvote.  My vote on Robz was OMGUS, looking for his reaction.  But I don't want to accelerate a wagon on him b/c I have no idea if he is scum.  I think we should look at Eevee - who is acting very similar to Voltaire's description of Robz - and maybe Voltaire himself, since he has seemed a lot less present than I am used to him being.

PPE I see Robz is on.  Why did you vote for me?

[Teproc]

Teproc you are missing my points.  yuma asked for evidence of his being aggressive when suspected.  That's why I provided it.  I don't think it makes him scummy, and I said so.  I think he uses that to keep from being accused and I am pointing it out to town b/c if he is scum that is a powerful defense if not recognized.  I voted for yuma, but most of those posts were my defense against his attack, not my case against him.

Ok.

My vote on Eevee is not OMGUS.  Day 1 he hadn't suspected me at all.  And his post feeling staged was what I was trying to show.  Also, I felt he misrepresented me and I said so. 

How did he misrepresent you ? By saying you haven't done anything towny ? That's not what I'd call misrepresenting. It might not be true (it depends on how you judge your day 1 suspicions), but it's not misrepresenting (which is way scummier to me).

So you thought his post felt staged. Ok, but why try to buff up your case artificially by making several points out of it ? Either it's a good enough reason to vote, or it's not. I don't think it is, which brings me to think you have another reason. This could be trying to get a wagon going on Eevee because he's an easy target, for example.

Basically, this is the second time this game you've voted for Eevee for very weak reasons. I can accept that day 1, not so much day 2.

The post where I backed up yuma's decision to mention the similarity with Theorel comes later (see below).  And show me what else besides that he includes in his "case"?  Later he brings up my vote on Eevee, but that's not in the post he where he votes me.  I've bolded the actions on my part that he says led him to make this post: I had a middling read on Robz, wondered about the wagon, and suspected Eevee who had defended Robz.  That's it.

First of all, I think your defense against that case was very problematic. Reducing it to "I did this and this and that, things that happen every game" is not an adequate response. An adequate response is to justify your actions, not to say that they don't matter.

But most importantly, yuma has definitely added things to his day 1 case, you even adressed them.  Saying yuma is still relying on his day 1 case when he clearly has other stuff to say (regardless of their value), isn't THAT misrepresenting ?

There's also something else I find problematic in your defense. In this game, you've said that it would be risky for scum to have townreads. Here's the quote :

But I am also noticing his having strong town reads, which in a small game would be risky for scum.  They want any mislynch they can get, and having strong town reads burns bridges. 

Now yuma uses this against you, and here's your response :

Regarding the scumminess of having many suspicions and not stating any townreads, you are deciding to see that as scummy by imagining a scenario in which it could be. 

It seems to me that this scenario he's imagining is one you've adhered to yourself.

Again, yuma's case is not that convincing to me, but your defense is making it seem a lot better.

[EFHW]

ok, well your points aren't unreasonable, but I don't agree with most of them.  I believe I addressed many aspects of yuma's case, so I am not only criticizing the initial case, which should have been clear, really.  I didn't realize a defense of my nullread and scumread was called for - are you asking for that?  Do you not find it scummy that yuma voted and pursued me initially based solely on the similarity to Theorel from a game I wasn't in and didn't follow?

Eevee misrepresented me b/c I believe I have done towny things today.  Of course, anyone can spin them into something else, decide I'm faking, or disagree with the content, but he suggests I have not been contributing and that just isn't true.

Regarding townreads, I have not adhered to yuma's imagined scenario.  I have gone about my business and ended up not having townreads.  That point I made was actually in yuma's favor, and if I was using that strategy (avoiding townreads to keep mislynch options open) do you really think I'd post about it like that?

My main goal is to not be mislynched.  If yuma and/or Eevee are scum, I want them lynched.  I've said before I don't know if yuma coming after me is mistaken perception or an attempt to mislynch.  I've gone back and forth on that in my mind.  It especially bothers me that he made this strongly worded, emphatic case without even going over Day 2.  And why does he come to Eevee's defense so vociferously, twice now? 

The next step I think will be to review yuma's case against faust, who was mislynched, to see if I can learn anything there.

The thing is, I bet I can read yuma's posts and see them as scummy if that's what I want to do.  I can make up scenarios where his defense of Walrus was for towncred, or his reflectiveness on the faust case was feigned.  I think I could put together a pretty convincing narrative.  But would it be true?  Is being able to imagine a narrative justification enough to vote?  People do that a lot, but my impression is that they are usually wrong.

[EFHW]

I think that's enough from me for awhile.  Where are other people's thoughts in terms of scum hunting?

[Voltaire]

I'll be back into this with a vengeance tomorrow.

[yuma]

long day of work followed by an epic soccer game (Go Real Salt Lake) means it is time for bed for me. So you get nothing from me until tomorrow after work. I am sure people have stuff for me to respond to.

[Teproc]

Just a heads-up, but I probably won't be very present today (it's a holiday here, WW1 peace). I'll be back shortly before the soft deadline though, and I'll hopefully have some reading to do by then

About EFHW... I feel lost. It feels like my read on her depends on the hour of the day I'm reading her posts so... I just don't really know. Her last post was reasonable, too.

It feels like a lot of this day has been a waste for me, since nobody claimed and I'm still undecided on EFHW. But I guess we still have a little time.

All in all, I still think we should lynch mail-mi. If not, Walrus and Eevee are next in line for me, in that order.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

I too have not been so present, long weekend for me as well. So I apologize for that.

At first glance this EFHW/Teproc banter strikes me as town vs. town. Meanwhile I imagine scum lurks elsewhere...

[mail-mi]

I too have not been so present, long weekend for me as well. So I apologize for that.

At first glance this EFHW/Teproc banter strikes me as town vs. town. Meanwhile I imagine scum lurks elsewhere...

I too think it is town v town. If one of them is scum, however, it's EFHW for sure.