Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: nkirbit on October 25, 2013, 06:02:04 pm
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Welcome to Mafia XXXIV: The Game of Thrones Mafia!
Mods: TwistedArcher, Nkirbit
Sign ups! (9 players!)
1. WalrusMcFishSr
2. Chairs
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie
4. Voltaire
5. Yuma
6. EFHW
7. Mail-Mi
8. Eevee
9. Faust Lynched Day1, Vanilla Townie
Players Tagged:
Ashersky
Voltgloss
The Rules of Mafia (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9211.0) will be used with the following changes. Please read them if this is your first time playing!
- Day deadlines will be 7 days and night deadlines will be 48 hours.
- During the first 24 hours of night, please PM the mods to confirm that you are still playing. After 24 hours, if you have not PM'd us, the mod(s) will PM you to check to see if you are still in fact playing. If we have not received a confirmation by the time Night is supposed to end, Night will continue as we look for a replacement.
Set-up specific info found in the next post.
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Game Setup
This game will be standard open, using the Matrix6 setup (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6):
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|Town Jailkeeper |Vanilla Townie|Mafia Goon |
|Mafia Roleblocker |Town Cop |Town Doctor |
|1-Shot Bulletproof Townie|Mafia Goon |Town Tracker|
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This setup will take a random row or column of the above matrix and add five Vanilla Townies and one Mafia Goon to the three randomly selected. So, in the end, there are six possible variations:
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
A few notes on the setup:
-The Mafia Roleblocker is able to both kill and roleblock on the same night.
-The Mafia Roleblocker's action resolves before the Town Jailkeeper's action.
-The 1-shot Bulletproof Townie's bulletproof ability is a static ability, and thus cannot be roleblocked.
-Roles may not self-target.
The same will start during the day. Each night (including Night0), the mafia members will be provided with a quicktopic link to discuss strategy in. Once a mafia member is killed, he or she will no longer be allowed to post in the quicktopic.
Flavor is NOT indicative of alignment. Which flavor roles will correspond with mafia members will be randomly chosen before the start of the game.
In this game, the town will be referred to as Loyalists and the mafia will be referred to as Usurpers.
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Shameless copying and pasting...
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When you play the game of thrones, you /in or you die.
There is no middle ground.
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It would be s/inful not to play this.
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Shameless copying and pasting...
Thanks to Sudgy for figuring out how to properly format a table!
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/in
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WHAT
/in
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Count me as /in
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/in
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I guess TA and I should finish the PMs soon.. this is filling up quickly!
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start before Toy Story! Who wants to wait til the 8th???
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/tag
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start before Toy Story! Who wants to wait til the 8th???
I have to talk to TA to make sure, but I don't see any reason we couldn't start this ASAP.
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(http://cdn.meme.li/i/paid0.jpg)
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You almost got the meme, Robz!
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When you play the game of thrones, you /in or you die.
There is no middle ground.
Oh yay! Walrus is in this! Hi Walrus! Come back for more mafia? I am thrilled!
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(http://cdn.meme.li/i/paifw.jpg)
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Hi yuma! Yeahh I'm back for more I guess. The flavor was irresistible and I got suckered into it haha.
Plus I didn't realize it would fill up quite so quickly! :o
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/tag
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Only in DW, and that'll probably end soon, so /in
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We will start sending out PMs the minute this fills!
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/tag
I'll follow, able to sub. Send me the QT when it opens. Thanks.
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PMs have been finished!
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/tag
I'll follow, able to sub. Send me the QT when it opens. Thanks.
Same here. I'm looking forward to watching from the outside and collegially arguing with ash about who's scum. :D
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/tag
I'll follow, able to sub. Send me the QT when it opens. Thanks.
Same here. I'm looking forward to watching from the outside and collegially arguing with ash about who's scum. :D
At least we'll both know each others' alignment. :)
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Is this 34 or 36? It's not consistently written in the thread titles
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Just saying, if you two joined, we could start TONIGHT!
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Is this 34 or 36? It's not consistently written in the thread titles
34.
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Is this 34 or 36? It's not consistently written in the thread titles
I originally had it as 36 since that's what we were in the mafia queue, but TA told me to change it to 34 since that's the order we're opening in.
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Haha that's part of the reason why I was confused! I was like, "36? That's so far away from 31! It will probably start up in a couple weeks, certainly not, say, TONIGHT" :D
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34 it is
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well in, obv
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well in, obv
One more!
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well in, obv
One more!
Is either Volt in? You need a Volt.
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well in, obv
One more!
Is either Volt in? You need a Volt.
We do have a Voltaire! Voltgloss said he's gonna watch with you.
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It's the dreaded setup from my first game! I need to try this once more, and hopefully it works out better this time...
/in
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And we are full! I won't have time to send PMs today, but hopefully TA will send them when he wakes up!
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PMs going out now. Please confirm to myself and Nkirbit!
Game will start on Monday morning.
THREAD LOCKED!!
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The game will start tomorrow morning.
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(/tag for speccy)
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(/tag for speccy)
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For the past ten years, ever since overthrowing the Targaryens, Robert Baratheon had ruled in King's Landing. After a devastating war, Westeros was at peace. The realm was in the middle of one of the longest summers in history, and all the way from the Wall to the Reach, the land was prospering. Lords feasted all across the realm, and the closest thing to a war was the melee in one of the many tournaments Robert threw. If you asked anyone, from a common peasant to the most noble knight to the richest lord, they would tell you that it felt like the summer was never going to end.
Even the longest summers come to an end, however. Although the majority of the realm was happy with Robert sitting on the Iron Throne, there were still those lords who were not. Two lords, in particular, wanted nothing more than for Robert's rule to come to an end. They plotted behind Robert's back, and slowly, mustered forces to rebel against Robert. However, these Usurpers made sure that no one was unable to uncover their identities.
One day, Varys came to Robert's chambers in secret. "My lord....I fear I have a predicament." He told Robert that he had heard whispers from the corners of the realm that a plot to overthrow Robert had been undertaken. "Unfortunately, my lord, I do not know the identity of these villains." He then suggested that Robert called a council of the greatest lords in Westeros. It would allow the Loyalists to prove themselves, and allow us to keep our enemies closer..."
Ravens went out all over Westeros. From Dorne in the South, to the Iron Islands, to Winterfell in the north, the greatest lords in Westeros came to King's Landing. They gathered in the council room behind the throne room. There, with Robert at his side, Varys stood to address the lords:
"My lords, thank you for coming. I'm sure you have all heard by now of the rebellion raging across our lands. It is of utmost importance that we find the leaders of the rebellion, and end them immediately. For there is nothing more important than peace.
We have reason to believe that the leaders of the rebellion sit among us today. If you are truly loyal to Robert, you will take it upon yourself to identify the usurpers, and deliver their heads to Robert!
When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. And we have no intention of allowing these usurpers to win. My lords, you have been given your task -- may the gods be with you!"
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Vote Count 1.0:
Not Voting (9): WalrusmcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-mi, Eevee, Faust
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
Thread Unlocked!!
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Hi everyone! Especially hi yuma, I haven't played with you yet. Which also mean I haven't voted you yet. This needs to change.
Vote: yuma
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Post count (not counting pre-game posts):
faust: 1
Everyone else: 0
Lynch all lurkers! This makes me feel even more confident about my yuma vote!
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Loving the flavor! Hello everyone.
I was on the verge of a burnout with being alive in three games, two of which big and rather confusing. Feels really nice to just be in one simple 9 player, so mafia better beware!
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I really disliked what I was starting to become as a player, being suspected due to lurking in all of my games and generally feeling not as useful as I'd want to. I decided to stop playing RMM games, because figuring out the setup in them takes a lot of effort and concentration, and honestly I like the social deduction of mafia, not trying to break the subgames our RMM's have lately been. I hope this means clearer head and better activity in normal games and a more enjoyable experience for me.
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Hello all! I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.
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Hello all! I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.
This. Also, vote: EFHW
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Let's do some theory talk!
Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?
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I think nooo? We wont lynch him ever, as he can just claim at L-1, so thats not a concern. The tradeoff would be one confirmed town voice in the expense of losing the option of mafia wasting their kill on the BP. As it is, BP is like having a doctor that always saves the same guy, I think that's better than a confirmed town voice.
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am i missing something?
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If the BP townie claims, then mafia know there is no cop or doctor. And if there is a roleblocker, that is one less person for them to target. So, I say no.
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mail-mi seems to vote someone for being similar to himself! vote: mail-mi.
It's the best I've got, I usually vote for the person I've never played with before but I'm already sick of all your faces already played with all of you. :)
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Okay, I think I need to make clear why I think this is a good idea. The reasons for and against having the BP townie claim are these (I hope I didn't forget anything:
CONTRA claiming:
1. mafia knows the exact setup
2. mafia won't waste a kill on the BP townie
3. mafia won't roleblock the BP townie
PRO claiming:
1. the BP townie essentially turns into an IC
2. our lynch pool gets smaller, giving us a bigger chance to hit mafia
3. we know more about the setup (there is a Jailkeeper or a Tracker)
4. our PR's target pool gets smaller
So regarding the contra points:
1. yes, they do. What harm is that, exactly? They have an information advantage already, they will have an information advantage afterwards. And it's not like they can use that information for fake-claims, because one of us knows the exact setup as well.
2. probably the biggest downside to BP claiming. But I think it is outweighed by the upsides. And there's a 50% chance we still have another protective role.
3. okay, mafia chances of succesful roleblocking increase from 1/7 to 1/6. That's a risk I'm willing to take.
What it really boils down to is this: Do we think that one-shot BP IC is a more powerful role than one-shot BP townie? Imagine Voltgloss in M31 would have been one-shot BP instead of IC. Imagine Galzria in M32 would have been one-shot BP instead of IC. Would this have increased town's chances of winning in those games? I don't think so. And both didn't even have the additional bulletproof we would have.
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CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.
My input is that the BP, if they exist, should use their own judgement on whether or not to claim (I think in this situation both opinions can make sense, so one action or another isn't a derp! action). Publicly talking about it is just an opportunity for the BP to accidentally reveal himself to the mafia, gaining us nothing and the mafia muchthings.
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CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.
My input is that the BP, if they exist, should use their own judgement on whether or not to claim (I think in this situation both opinions can make sense, so one action or another isn't a derp! action). Publicly talking about it is just an opportunity for the BP to accidentally reveal himself to the mafia, gaining us nothing and the mafia muchthings.
I agree with this 100%. Also, your pro #2 isn't correct in my opinion - the BP townie was never in the lynch pool.
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CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.
My input is that the BP, if they exist, should use their own judgement on whether or not to claim (I think in this situation both opinions can make sense, so one action or another isn't a derp! action). Publicly talking about it is just an opportunity for the BP to accidentally reveal himself to the mafia, gaining us nothing and the mafia muchthings.
I agree with this 100%. Also, your pro #2 isn't correct in my opinion - the BP townie was never in the lynch pool.
Well, I guess we wouldn't lynch them in the end, but we would push them to L-1, when we could have used that time better hunting for actual scum.
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Also, vote: Eevee
You agree 100% that we shouldn't talk about BP claiming and then continue to talk about it?
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CONTRA
4. BP townie can claim on a later day for wicked POE against mafia.
I don't really see how having the BP claim later is any better for POE than having them claim immediately. But I agree of course that this choice is up to the BP townie themselves, should we have one.
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Okay, we're going to back to normal non-crazy non-constant claiming. Don't claim except at L-1 or during extenuating circumstances.
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Yessss Game of Thrones!!!! Time for a quick pre-work post to kick things off:
BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada
(That's the theme song in case that wasn't clear)
Hello all! I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.
That is a huge problem so far as I'm concerned ;) You should rectify this immediately.
Let's do some theory talk!
Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?
If this is hypothetical "theory talk" it sounds pretty concrete to me. What do you mean by "the" BP? Does this strike anyone else as odd?
Is that a soft row/column claim? Are YOU a BP? Just rolefishing perhaps?
Maybe it's really just honest speculation or I'm being dense. But vote: faust until I get an explanation.
I'll be back around lunch to check up on things.
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Contra #5: The mafia's target pool in looking for the other PR is reduced.
I agree with faust that this comes down to how valuable we think an IC is to town. While it helps to have a voice we know is truthful, it reduces town responsibility and can lead to everyone deferring to the IC instead of coming up with or listening to other ideas. And this happens no matter how hard the IC tries to dissuade town from doing so. Also, someone suggested re: LOTR2 that it is good if the IC is revealed later in the game, like Day 2.
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Also, vote: Eevee
You agree 100% that we shouldn't talk about BP claiming and then continue to talk about it?
You brought it up and now you are voting Eevee for talking about it! Kind of a cheap vote, don't you think?
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Yessss Game of Thrones!!!! Time for a quick pre-work post to kick things off:
BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada
(That's the theme song in case that wasn't clear)
Hello all! I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.
That is a huge problem so far as I'm concerned ;) You should rectify this immediately.
Let's do some theory talk!
Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?
If this is hypothetical "theory talk" it sounds pretty concrete to me. What do you mean by "the" BP? Does this strike anyone else as odd?
Is that a soft row/column claim? Are YOU a BP? Just rolefishing perhaps?
Maybe it's really just honest speculation or I'm being dense. But vote: faust until I get an explanation.
I'll be back around lunch to check up on things.
I write "the" BP because there is at most one.
And what about those other questions - are YOU rolefishing?
What do you want an explanation for? I tried to start a discussion because I've already played this setup and had this idea, so I wanted to know what the players in this game think about it. Go back and read NMIV, and you'll see that I proposed the exact same plan - as a VT.
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Also, vote: Eevee
You agree 100% that we shouldn't talk about BP claiming and then continue to talk about it?
You brought it up and now you are voting Eevee for talking about it! Kind of a cheap vote, don't you think?
Sure it's a cheap vote, it's the start of D1! I just wanted to point out the inconsistency in saying: "Oh right, I agree we shouldn't talk about topic X anymore. By the way, I think [something topic-X-related]."
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but it's not an RVS vote, just to be clear.
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Yessss Game of Thrones!!!! Time for a quick pre-work post to kick things off:
BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada BA da dada
(That's the theme song in case that wasn't clear)
Hello all! I am not familiar with Game of Thrones - I hope that isn't a problem.
That is a huge problem so far as I'm concerned ;) You should rectify this immediately.
Let's do some theory talk!
Do you think the Bulletproof Townie should claim D1?
If this is hypothetical "theory talk" it sounds pretty concrete to me. What do you mean by "the" BP? Does this strike anyone else as odd?
Is that a soft row/column claim? Are YOU a BP? Just rolefishing perhaps?
Maybe it's really just honest speculation or I'm being dense. But vote: faust until I get an explanation.
I'll be back around lunch to check up on things.
I write "the" BP because there is at most one.
And what about those other questions - are YOU rolefishing?
What do you want an explanation for? I tried to start a discussion because I've already played this setup and had this idea, so I wanted to know what the players in this game think about it. Go back and read NMIV, and you'll see that I proposed the exact same plan - as a VT.
Sure'n I wasn't actually expecting answers to those questions...they were merely rhetorical to illustrate my thought process.
I'll go and check out NMIV I guess at some point. It just seemed like an oddly specific point to immediately bring up. Why consider the BP townie so pointedly? Why not discuss any of the other possible roles or configurations at all?
That, and it seems like you're acting a little more...overeager? than I would expect based on my experience playing with you. Seemed a little out of character to be jumping in and taking center stage right at the outset, and that raised some warning flags for me.
That being said, I'll actually do my homework and look at NMIV over lunch.
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Post count!
9 Faust
5 EFHW
5 Eevee
2 WalrusMcFishSr
2 Voltaire
1 Robz888
1 Mail-Mi
0 Yuma
0 Chairs
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All right, I looked it through, and yes you do make pretty much the exact same case in NMIV. I guess faust just really likes talking about BP roles.
unvote
I don't think it would be a wise claim though. I could see the arguments for it, I guess, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea. I agree with Robz that we should probably try to pare back claiming somewhat in this game.
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Not to say my suspicions are completely allayed. That post count shows what I was talking about: Is it not somewhat surprising to see faust top the chart so emphatically like that? I know it's just the beginning of the day, and things will surely stabilize in a couple RL days (I expect my relative post count to drop for example haha), but still it raised an eyebrow from me.
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I think it is very bad to find a player scummy for exploring the strategic theory space of a game. I don't agree with faust but I certainly don't find him scummy for posting a lot at the start. The posts haven't been empty, either.
It certainly does stand out, though. I think I am glad you noticed that.
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vote faust
It was a bad idea in New mafia four. It's a bad idea here and you have more veterans to take advantage of it.
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vote faust
It was a bad idea in New mafia four. It's a bad idea here and you have more veterans to take advantage of it.
vote: chairs it's not that bad of an idea. In fact, my opinion is that the pros outweigh the cons.
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Bulletproof townie claiming POEs our other roles for the Mafia. I'll say this - if I were Mafia, and I had followed NMIV, I'd purposefully have Faust jumping out of the gate with a BP Townie claim request in hopes of a derpclaim - this gives me one less person to try to shoot, lets me know more about the setup, and people will excuse Faust in particular for the request because of NMIV.
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Bulletproof townie claiming POEs our other roles for the Mafia. I'll say this - if I were Mafia, and I had followed NMIV, I'd purposefully have Faust jumping out of the gate with a BP Townie claim request in hopes of a derpclaim - this gives me one less person to try to shoot, lets me know more about the setup, and people will excuse Faust in particular for the request because of NMIV.
But it gives us an IC that won't be killed, which I think outweighs the cons.
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I guess. I've not played Matrix6 before, I'd have to read over a few games that included the BP townie to see how things worked out.
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Hi all!
Beside the Bulletproof issue, what else can we learn from last game?
1. Don't claim VT randomly. This is bad.
2. Don't derphammer. It is sometimes a fine and useful tool for town, but really, hitting the cop wasn't very ideal last time and I don't expect it to be here.
3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.
4. Don't lurk
As for the Bulletproof issue. I think if the BP is going to claim, claiming day2 is better than claiming day1. Day2 and beyond is where ICs start to become more powerful and there is always the chance that mafia will shoot the bulletproof townie tonight. I am not convinced that the bulletproof townie should claim at all--I'll leave that up to them--but if they ultimately decide to do so, I would suggest doing it Day2.
And with that, perhaps we can talk about something other than this hypothetical that only has a 1/3 chance of existing in the first place.
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I go away to a Halloween party for the evening and come back to .... ....
Let me re-iterate:
4. Don't lurk
Without ashersky I don't know if we are going to be able to start up this game very well. Ash is quite the figure and whether or not you agree with his playstyle it certainly gets the game going.
In looking over everything I think my biggest (and by biggest I mean it is only a smidgin) is Walrus. His backing off faust seemed a little too easy... Add to that his latest post where he says his suspicions "aren't allayed." If your suspicions aren't allayed Walrus, then why unvote?
vote: Walrus
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I think it is very bad to find a player scummy for exploring the strategic theory space of a game. I don't agree with faust but I certainly don't find him scummy for posting a lot at the start. The posts haven't been empty, either.
It certainly does stand out, though. I think I am glad you noticed that.
You think you are glad?
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I go away to a Halloween party for the evening and come back to .... ....
What was your costume? Does it reveal anything about your alignment?
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I like this semi-open setup. Perhaps the mafia among us know some ways to make people talk?
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I go away to a Halloween party for the evening and come back to .... ....
What was your costume? Does it reveal anything about your alignment?
Evil yuma (me with a felt goatee) with evil wife (with a felt goatee) and evil baby (with a felt goatee).
If you have seen season 3 of Community you will get the reference (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltar1pGSPR1qdlps9o1_500.jpg). I don't think it speaks to my alignment that much as we were planning it when I was town in the most recent game so I don't think you can delve too much into my psyche trying to analyze it.
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I go away to a Halloween party for the evening and come back to .... ....
What was your costume? Does it reveal anything about your alignment?
Evil yuma (me with a felt goatee) with evil wife (with a felt goatee) and evil baby (with a felt goatee).
If you have seen season 3 of Community you will get the reference (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltar1pGSPR1qdlps9o1_500.jpg). I don't think it speaks to my alignment that much as we were planning it when I was town in the most recent game so I don't think you can delve too much into my psyche trying to analyze it.
Evil yuma? vote: Yuma
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You think you are glad?
Yes. My silly way of phrasing that it might be a good thing that he was on the lookout for such changes in behavior ie it could be a towntell for Walrus.
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In looking over everything I think my biggest (and by biggest I mean it is only a smidgin) is Walrus. His backing off faust seemed a little too easy... Add to that his latest post where he says his suspicions "aren't allayed." If your suspicions aren't allayed Walrus, then why unvote?
vote: Walrus
After I read through faust's source material I was feeling somewhat appeased, so I unvoted by reflex. But then I thought about it a little more, and posted that qualification right afterward. Part of what I thought about was, hey maybe I should have just kept my vote there, but I shouldn't just revote in the next post because that would look even odder.
However keeping my vote uncasted is not helping move the game, and I guess my best lead is still faust, so I will re-vote: faust. But I see your point Voltaire--I did not mean to find someone scummy for exploring theory. It wasn't the fact that he was doing it, so much as the way that he was doing it and the context which put me on alert. I'm sorry faust if you feel I was stifling you, and I didn't mean to impede the flow of dialogue. Do you think you've been playing more actively than usual? I notice you haven't posted in a while, but you could just be asleep or something.
I agree with yuma that this game does seem super slow. With the lull a couple days ago, and given how quickly this game filled, I assumed that everyone was chompin' at the bit for some Mafia action! What happened to that enthusiasm?
In that vein, many suspicions to lurkers. For some reason, mail-mi in particular struck me as suspicious. I think it's a little odd that he appeared right after ranking low in Voltaire's post count, but even so still hasn't really said anything truly substantial. Yes, your post count is boosted a bit mail-mi, but how about some content. yuma appeared late too but has a baby and actually posted something with some meat IMO, ditto chairs but he has lousy Internet as I recall. So fewer suspicions there.
Robz is Robz. I do wish you'd say something a bit more, Robz!
Without ashersky I don't know if we are going to be able to start up this game very well. Ash is quite the figure and whether or not you agree with his playstyle it certainly gets the game going.
Pffffffffffffffff, that's ridiculous, and you know ash is reading that and gloating to Voltgloss right now. Somebody do the thing that ash does where he starts up a game. yuma you must know how to do it. Honestly Voltaire I was expecting something more out of you...come on, work some magic!
I'm going to bed, but when I wake up I expect to see at least...3 more posts! Minimum!
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However keeping my vote uncasted is not helping move the game, and I guess my best lead is still faust, so I will re-vote: faust. But I see your point Voltaire--I did not mean to find someone scummy for exploring theory. It wasn't the fact that he was doing it, so much as the way that he was doing it and the context which put me on alert. I'm sorry faust if you feel I was stifling you, and I didn't mean to impede the flow of dialogue. Do you think you've been playing more actively than usual? I notice you haven't posted in a while, but you could just be asleep or something.
Well, I may have been a little more active than usual, if it even makes sense to say something like this on the fourth page of the thread. I also usually post at different times than most others, because of the whole me living in Germany thing.
Generally, I thought this BP topic might be a good way to start discussion. Well, it didn't work out that great. I guess I'm not ashersky.
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A reads post cuz I'm on a bus and heck why not.
1. WalrusMcFishSr--jumping off Faust then getting back on after being called out is a bit suspicious.
2. Chairs--Has differing opinions about theory--SCUM SCUM! Jk null
3. Robz888--vote: robz has like 1 post.
4. Voltaire--seems normal self. Townish
5. Yuma--Dressed up evil for Halloween. Nothing much here, null
6. EFHW--asking lots of questions. Null
7. Mail-Mi--obvtown
8. Eevee--IDK, has been lurking a lot in recent games when town, seems the sameish here. Slightly townish (which prob. means no cuz it's Eevee)
9. Faust--just getting a slightly scummy feel, not much else.
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I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
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Sorry, I had a very busy day yesterday. Wasn't very active on the forums at all.
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Hi all!
Beside the Bulletproof issue, what else can we learn from last game?
1. Don't claim VT randomly. This is bad.
2. Don't derphammer. It is sometimes a fine and useful tool for town, but really, hitting the cop wasn't very ideal last time and I don't expect it to be here.
3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.
4. Don't lurk
As for the Bulletproof issue. I think if the BP is going to claim, claiming day2 is better than claiming day1. Day2 and beyond is where ICs start to become more powerful and there is always the chance that mafia will shoot the bulletproof townie tonight. I am not convinced that the bulletproof townie should claim at all--I'll leave that up to them--but if they ultimately decide to do so, I would suggest doing it Day2.
And with that, perhaps we can talk about something other than this hypothetical that only has a 1/3 chance of existing in the first place.
I don't like this post. First yuma states some pretty obvious "lessons" from the last game, then does weigh in a little on the BP issue, which is okay in content, but doesn't really lead us anywhere, and ultimately suggests talking about "something else" - but doesn't give any proposal what we should talk about instead. The whole post is a little empty.
Vote: yuma
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Players who have posted without voting:
Robz888, EFHW, Eevee
These players are a big part of the problem.
Happy with my vote on Robz.
I have already removed two players from my lynch pool today, but I'm not going to tell you who they are (yet)!
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Hi all!
Beside the Bulletproof issue, what else can we learn from last game?
1. Don't claim VT randomly. This is bad.
2. Don't derphammer. It is sometimes a fine and useful tool for town, but really, hitting the cop wasn't very ideal last time and I don't expect it to be here.
3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.
4. Don't lurk
As for the Bulletproof issue. I think if the BP is going to claim, claiming day2 is better than claiming day1. Day2 and beyond is where ICs start to become more powerful and there is always the chance that mafia will shoot the bulletproof townie tonight. I am not convinced that the bulletproof townie should claim at all--I'll leave that up to them--but if they ultimately decide to do so, I would suggest doing it Day2.
And with that, perhaps we can talk about something other than this hypothetical that only has a 1/3 chance of existing in the first place.
I don't like this post. First yuma states some pretty obvious "lessons" from the last game, then does weigh in a little on the BP issue, which is okay in content, but doesn't really lead us anywhere, and ultimately suggests talking about "something else" - but doesn't give any proposal what we should talk about instead. The whole post is a little empty.
Vote: yuma
And that is scummy because.....
I think talking about the obvious points is necessary. It was assumed last game--and in Modern Community to an extent--that these obvious points would be taken for granted. I see no reason to critique someone for pointing out the obvious when it is obviousthat not everyone sees it that way.
Sure I don't bring up a topic to move onto. Had to leave to the party, but my very next post (and the very next post in the thread) is scum hunting, yet you choose to ignore that.
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I find myself agreeing with mail-mi *gasp* that both faust and Walrus have been a little scummy so far.
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Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
So we have something to think about here. Day ends on a Monday evening. I generally prefer to have soft deadlines before the real deadline, but a soft deadline in this case would be during the weekend... Not ideal as generally you want people online during it. So I am thinking that we don't use a softdeadlne, or if we do, have it be Monday afternoon... around 12:00? I think with only 9 of us that should give us enough time to hash things out if we can't come to an agreement by then, as Mondays are generally pretty active on the forums.
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I find myself agreeing with mail-mi *gasp* that both faust and Walrus have been a little scummy so far.
I kind of agree, but am at least trying to consider the, to coin a phrase, "high posting fallacy" where people who post more look scummier because they have said more things about which to look scummy for.
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I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
and then showed up immediately when talked about
Sorry, I had a very busy day yesterday. Wasn't very active on the forums at all.
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I find myself agreeing with mail-mi *gasp* that both faust and Walrus have been a little scummy so far.
I kind of agree, but am at least trying to consider the, to coin a phrase, "high posting fallacy" where people who post more look scummier because they have said more things about which to look scummy for.
*spoiler alert* One of them is on my "don't lynch" list right now!
As far as the soft deadline goes, is there anything wrong with setting it at 5 PM on Friday? The weekend will be slow/nonexistent, and we can get a lynch through Monday if needed. Given that none of us posted overnight, I think we're all US time zones-ish except for faust?
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I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
and then showed up immediately when talked about
Sorry, I had a very busy day yesterday. Wasn't very active on the forums at all.
Agreed. Problem is, this scummy behavior (textbook actilurking) is a nulltell for Robz, as he has established a meta of behaving in this anti-town fashion D1.
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I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
and then showed up immediately when talked about
Sorry, I had a very busy day yesterday. Wasn't very active on the forums at all.
Just a coincidence. I am making an effort to get going earlier in the morning, and just logged on.
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Just a coincidence. I am making an effort to get going earlier in the morning, and just logged on.
Good if true. I look forward to your first contributions.
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Just a coincidence. I am making an effort to get going earlier in the morning, and just logged on.
Good if true. I look forward to your first contributions.
Already made it, look at that.
Okay, we're going to back to normal non-crazy non-constant claiming. Don't claim except at L-1 or during extenuating circumstances.
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Just a coincidence. I am making an effort to get going earlier in the morning, and just logged on.
Good if true. I look forward to your first contributions.
Already made it, look at that.
Okay, we're going to back to normal non-crazy non-constant claiming. Don't claim except at L-1 or during extenuating circumstances.
I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
That's all you have to say? That's one mighty small contribution to hang your hat on.
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As far as the soft deadline goes, is there anything wrong with setting it at 5 PM on Friday? The weekend will be slow/nonexistent, and we can get a lynch through Monday if needed. Given that none of us posted overnight, I think we're all US time zones-ish except for faust?
My only problem with that is that it is Tuesday. Setting a softdeadline for Friday shorts us three days of time, giving us really only 4 days to analyze. We might hit scum in that time period, but it makes me wary that we won't and then only have a small amount of posting to analyze going into tomorrow.
I guess there is a fair argument that we won't have a lot of posting over the weekend regardless, but my hope is that if we know there is a deadline on Monday there will be more activity.
Oh, and Eevee is non-US. Go Finland!
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Friday or Monday should be fine for me. I won't have a long time on Monday, but will be around at 12 and periodically throughout the day/evening until 8.
I don't see why it is scummy to not have voted yet. That seems like a strange thing to say, actually.
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I don't see why it is scummy to not have voted yet. That seems like a strange thing to say, actually.
The game wasn't "rolling". The time-tested way is to have an RVS. You were posting a lot and asking questions, but nothing else. Of the three people I named, you had done the "most" to move the game forward.
I understand there are different ways to play, but if everyone claims "I get my best reads by observing others" then we'll time out the day and no-lynch after we've collectively made 0 posts.
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I think Monday would be better for the game. Sometimes there is some activity on the weekend, and with short Days we might as well use the time.
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I don't see why it is scummy to not have voted yet. That seems like a strange thing to say, actually.
The game wasn't "rolling". The time-tested way is to have an RVS. You were posting a lot and asking questions, but nothing else. Of the three people I named, you had done the "most" to move the game forward.
I understand there are different ways to play, but if everyone claims "I get my best reads by observing others" then we'll time out the day and no-lynch after we've collectively made 0 posts.
Participating is important. Voting is just one way of participating, and not even the most productive way in the first part of a game. Nothing wrong with it, but I don't give it special importance.
But anyway, calling attention to things you have observed is another productive way of participating.
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Hey lots of posts! I am pleased by this activity.
Maybe I was too hard on you faust. yuma I see your point about the high posting bias. I know that I've been trying to post more myself, so that's sort of sticking my neck out a bit more as well; now that the "confused noob" meta doesn't suit me quite so well I'm trying to actually play the game a bit more. But for right now I am actually more suspicious of the lurkier crowd.
mail-mi finds me suspicious, but that's right after I called him out for being suspicious, so meh.
Of the three non-voters that Voltaire mentioned, I find Robz to be the scummiest. At first I thought you were just being Robz!Robz. But the fact that you "coincidentally" showed up when you were mentioned, and that (as Voltaire put it) you are "hanging your hat" on such a minor contribution--well, that doesn't quite sit right with me. vote: Robz--maybe some semblance of a wagon will move things along, or at least get Robz talking more.
Suspicions towards Eevee--you showed up at the beginning and made quite the show about how you were going to lurk less and participate more. But I haven't exactly seen evidence of that.
For some reason I'm getting a town vibe from EFHW. She's been quite active and seems genuine enough.
Voltaire himself is mostly a town read, although I was expecting a little more activity at the outset. Looks like you've stepped up a bit recently. Same with yuma basically--picking up on some towniness there.
The only other thing I'll add is that in the games I've played in, the "soft deadlines" haven't really worked very well. So I guess I don't really see the point in talking about that too much, and just discussing the deadline does not constitute a "high-content" post in my eyes. Maybe I'm just inexperienced though and the soft deadline has historically been a useful tool.
Also, is that damn plurality lynch clause in effect like it was in M31 and RMM9? I don't see anything about it in the rules. I won't be confounded by that one again come the end of the day.
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Also, is that damn plurality lynch clause in effect like it was in M31 and RMM9? I don't see anything about it in the rules. I won't be confounded by that one again come the end of the day.
No. If no majority is reached by the deadline, a no lynch will occur.
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vote count yuma.1
robz (2): mail-mi, voltaire, Walrus
faust (1): chairs
walrus (1): yuma
yuma (1): faust
Not Voting (9): WalrusmcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-mi, Eevee, Faust
so three votes on Robz. Let's see what they were about:
3. Robz888--vote: robz has like 1 post.
I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
Of the three non-voters that Voltaire mentioned, I find Robz to be the scummiest. At first I thought you were just being Robz!Robz. But the fact that you "coincidentally" showed up when you were mentioned, and that (as Voltaire put it) you are "hanging your hat" on such a minor contribution--well, that doesn't quite sit right with me. vote: Robz--maybe some semblance of a wagon will move things along, or at least get Robz talking more.
I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
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The wagon on me is obviously going to dissipate, probably even if I do nothing. I'd have to think scum wouldn't dare actually get on right now. So I find these Robz votes pretty towny. How's that for weird thinking?
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I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
The alternative is to never vote, ever.
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The wagon on me is obviously going to dissipate, probably even if I do nothing. I'd have to think scum wouldn't dare actually get on right now. So I find these Robz votes pretty towny. How's that for weird thinking?
unless they started on it... I agree scum probably won't vote for you now, but why do you think say mail-mi'l or volt's vote is townier?
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I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
The alternative is to never vote, ever.
That isn't answering my question...
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I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
The alternative is to never vote, ever.
That isn't answering my question...
Yeah, that was phrased poorly. So: I am expecting to find scum in lower posters. I am expecting scum to hang back, ish. I am expecting Robz not to play on D1. I am expecting Robz to sorta play D1 if called out on it. Early on D1, I can see all these things being true at once.
Also, it got Walrus to move to Robz after I voted for him! That's interesting, and likely useful down the road. It's the first time someone has reached three votes, and how else do you get the game moving without wagons? This is not to say I am voting for reactions. They're a happy outcome.
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I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
The alternative is to never vote, ever.
That isn't answering my question...
Yeah, that was phrased poorly. So: I am expecting to find scum in lower posters. I am expecting scum to hang back, ish. I am expecting Robz not to play on D1. I am expecting Robz to sorta play D1 if called out on it. Early on D1, I can see all these things being true at once.
Also, it got Walrus to move to Robz after I voted for him! That's interesting, and likely useful down the road. It's the first time someone has reached three votes, and how else do you get the game moving without wagons? This is not to say I am voting for reactions. They're a happy outcome.
Cool.
Vote: Robz That's L-1.
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request an official vote count to verify the L-1
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So what are your reasons for thinking Robz is scum, yuma?
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So what are your reasons for thinking Robz is scum, yuma?
I am sheeping your reasoning. The biggest is posting when called out on it.
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Fascinating unusual behavior by yuma, as far as I can tell, but I see no reason to be concerned by it right now.
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The wagon on me is obviously going to dissipate, probably even if I do nothing. I'd have to think scum wouldn't dare actually get on right now. So I find these Robz votes pretty towny. How's that for weird thinking?
Part of me just wants to quicklynch Robz because I think it's an interesting tack to go down.
I actually think Walrus threw out a pretty scummy statement in his recent long post, though (sneaking on at work, so I'll try to quote later when I'm tethering at home), so...
vote: walrus
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Vote Count 1.1:
Robz888(4): Mail-Mi, Voltaire, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma {L-1}
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Chairs
Yuma (1): Faust
Not Voting (3): EFHW, Eevee, Robz888
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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Well this is unexpected.
Yeah, I didn't post because I was called out on it, I posted because I stopped being busy.
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vote count yuma.1
robz (2): mail-mi, voltaire, Walrus
faust (1): chairs
walrus (1): yuma
yuma (1): faust
Not Voting (9): WalrusmcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-mi, Eevee, Faust
so three votes on Robz. Let's see what they were about:
3. Robz888--vote: robz has like 1 post.
I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
Of the three non-voters that Voltaire mentioned, I find Robz to be the scummiest. At first I thought you were just being Robz!Robz. But the fact that you "coincidentally" showed up when you were mentioned, and that (as Voltaire put it) you are "hanging your hat" on such a minor contribution--well, that doesn't quite sit right with me. vote: Robz--maybe some semblance of a wagon will move things along, or at least get Robz talking more.
I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
Pressure vote. Anti-town, good 'nuf for a D1 vote. Also, if you're scum, plz quick hammer Robz. If you're scum Robz, then please quick hammer yourself.
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I've been out, announcing intent to catch up during the next couple of hours.
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Well, this is pretty interesting. It's so early I have no read on Robz. Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment. So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him. Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him? I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.
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Walrus, I know.. Real life though, at least there weren't more than two pages to come to!
yuma is playing differently than usual, but I like it. Taking an ashersky role, now that he isn't playing?
Voltaire, I don't agree with not voting yet being antitown or scummy. I guess people's opinions on RVS vary, I personally have never been able to gain anything from it.
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
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I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
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But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?
Yes.
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But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?
Yes.
Let me rephrase.
Oversimplified, he has two options. Taking the "it doesn't matter, this won't go through anyways" defense, or taking a more standard "okay, I understand I have undercontributed and apologize.. here is what I think of the current game state" defense. Isn't mafia more likely to pick the second one, instead of intentionally drawing negative attention and upsetting other people in the game?
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But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?
Yes.
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OK no plurality lynch. Gotcha thanks.
yuma, I think the reasons for voting for Robz have been spelled out, and apparently you didn't take much convincing to hop on board! It was a combination of lurkiness, reactions to people noticing his lurkiness, and just to put on some pressure and get him talking. I agree with Voltaire that this yuma "sheeping" exchange seemed weird but not inherently scummy.
I don't like Robz' assumption that the wagon will just auto-dissipate. The fact that he calls the votes on him "towny" is interesting and it does make me think. So thank you for giving me something to think about. But the idea that it'll just "obviously" break up is quite bold, and it's enough for me to want to keep my vote there for now--based on what I know of Robz, this kind of audacity could easily be scum!play. Robz, what are your reads like right now?
chairs votes for me. I'd like to know the quote you mentioned which prompted that, chairs!
Eevee, I agree that the vote flip-flop-flip was not ideal. Others have mentioned it and I have already explained my reasoning elsewhere. I would personally think that the "path of least resistance" for me in this instance would have been simply to unvote and then vote for somebody else, if I were trying to blend into the crowd. But I didn't feel like doing that; faust was still my primary scumread, and I wanted to help un-stagnate the game by re-voting.
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Walrus, I know.. Real life though, at least there weren't more than two pages to come to!
yuma is playing differently than usual, but I like it. Taking an ashersky role, now that he isn't playing?
Voltaire, I don't agree with not voting yet being antitown or scummy. I guess people's opinions on RVS vary, I personally have never been able to gain anything from it.
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
But, would Robz be so bold as mafia?
Yes.
Let me rephrase.
Oversimplified, he has two options. Taking the "it doesn't matter, this won't go through anyways" defense, or taking a more standard "okay, I understand I have undercontributed and apologize.. here is what I think of the current game state" defense. Isn't mafia more likely to pick the second one, instead of intentionally drawing negative attention and upsetting other people in the game?
Just about the only thing that does get on my nerves is being accused of not helping the town enough. I'm helping the town fine. The game hasn't been going for very long, and Eevee hasn't been around at all until now. I absolutely, manifestly do not apologize for anything. I have done nothing wrong, and I'll give more observations when I have them.
As much as you may not like the "I don't have to do anything to dissipate this wagon" atittude, it's the truth. The first wagon never succeeds, a Day 1 wagon against me has very little chance of succeeding, and one with absolutely no evidence has zero chance of succeeding. So, for better or worse, there's nothing I have to do to stop this wagon.
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The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
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I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
and then showed up immediately when talked about
Sorry, I had a very busy day yesterday. Wasn't very active on the forums at all.
Agreed. Problem is, this scummy behavior (textbook actilurking) is a nulltell for Robz, as he has established a meta of behaving in this anti-town fashion D1.
If it's a nulltell, then is your vote on him just for pressure?
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The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
i think even Robz is less likely to react like that, albeit less than others. Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!
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So what are your reasons for thinking Robz is scum, yuma?
I am sheeping your reasoning. The biggest is posting when called out on it.
I think yuma's vote looks scummy-ish. Voltaire hasn't actually said he thinks Robz is scum, he's said he's being anti-town (I know, not that again!). Walrus and Eevee both said they didn't think it was scummy for yuma to sheep like that. That's something to keep in mind.
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yuma has seemed willing to try different, maybe less serious stuff early day 1 lately.
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I've seen Robz say that before. I don't know what alignment he was then, probably town, but it's so in character (and so true) that this is not a towntell for me at all. You've played with him even more than I have.
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I also find Walrus scummy-ish for his comments on mail-mi. It's possible that he isn't familiar enough with how mail-mi plays, but I'm making note of that.
note: "scummy-ish" means on the border between null and scummy.
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The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Something to keep note of, for sure.
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vote: EFHW
Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...
Well, this is pretty interesting. It's so early I have no read on Robz. Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment. So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him. Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him? I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.
middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)
last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.
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Yo I'll sheep that.
vote: EFHW
I just did a quick reread of EFHW and there's much less actual content there than I thought. There's quite a few posts, but they're mostly all brief, asking questions, discussing perfunctory matters and vaguely fomenting suspicions. It's all very pleasant, but so non-committal. yuma's most recent post rings true to me, and I find yuma to be quite towny right now.
And then just now EFHW finds me "scummy-ish"[1] for my comments on mail-mi? What, my one comment on mail-mi, like, 3 pages ago? Why bring that up now? and I still do find mail-mi to be rather scummy actually. His posts are sparse and mostly insubstantial by my estimation. The most substantial thing he's written is that one-liner reads post, right after I called him out actually...very well-timed. Maybe I'm just not familiar with his usual playstyle...but I do know that right now I'm finding it to be fluffy. And we do not abide fluff in Westeros.
In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.
Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam? Note how EFHW stuck up for mail-mi in her accusation of me seemingly out of the blue, and mail-mi also recently quoted EFHW and said "Something to keep note of, for sure." On my reread, I also noticed that some of the first dialogue of the game was a ""pleasantry"" and ""RVS vote"" exchanged between the two of them. I don't know if they'd be so overt about it though. A tenuous connection perhaps, and possibly magnified by OMGUS, but it's an observation.
And yes Robz, it looks like your wagon has disintegrated somewhat. For now. Maybe you are right, but I did think that the way you expressed yourself came across as off-putting, and I do remain wary.
[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.
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Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!
More lies!
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Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!
More lies!
No lies! The following quote is from the mafia QT of M31:
My challenge is probably going to be finding a blanace. I CANT be too active on Day 1, because basically I just never am. I am way more active on Day 1s when I am scum, because I'm tryin to orchestrate things. As town, I just ignore the game until it gets interesting. So I will probably try to do that again here. Also, I am INCRDIBLY busy for the next few days. But I'm rarely a Day 1 target--I think yuma established that I should basically never ever be killed on Day 1.
Vote: Robz
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Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!
More lies!
No lies! The following quote is from the mafia QT of M31:
My challenge is probably going to be finding a blanace. I CANT be too active on Day 1, because basically I just never am. I am way more active on Day 1s when I am scum, because I'm tryin to orchestrate things. As town, I just ignore the game until it gets interesting. So I will probably try to do that again here. Also, I am INCRDIBLY busy for the next few days. But I'm rarely a Day 1 target--I think yuma established that I should basically never ever be killed on Day 1.
Vote: Robz
I am less likely to put in a lot of work on Day 1 as town, yes this is true. I don't care less about winning, as Eevee implied. Furthermore, I'm doing stuff, and usually do some stuff anyway, I just worry that I have a scumtell of being around a lot on Day 1 when scum.
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Readsreadsreads.
1. WalrusMcFishSr - is more active than usual. Which is fine by itself, but the fact that at the same time he calls me out for being more active seems weird. Also the way he votes raises my suspicion (voting/unvoting me, sheeping cases on Robz and EFHW). Seems scummy overall.
2. Chairs - I actually liked the way he reacted to the BP issue: he stated that it could be a scum ploy having me come out with it, which is wrong, but a good line of thinking for town. So I have a slight town read.
3. Robz888 - well, his lurky/anti-town behaviour doesn't give away much. But the fact that he calls an observation about his playstyle a "lie" when he knows it's true - that's just a scum tell for me. And I don't buy that he misunderstood Eevee here.
4. Voltaire - not much, seems his usual town self. Slight slight town read.
5. Yuma - it's just hard for me to read him. But he seems to be a driving force, so I don't want him lynched D1.
6. EFHW - the case on her is not strong, I think. But her posts seemed to be lacking content to me before. Slight scum.
7. Mail-Mi - is his usual, lurky self. Null read.
8. Eevee - Also pretty null for me, no posts really stand out.
9. Faust - town!
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I don't remember walrus asking for town's permission on his suspicions in modern community (where he was town), can anyone confirm? I think his tone here is very different. Wanting to please the crowd and have someone validate your "suspicions" before committing to them is a pretty well working scum tell, especially for newer scum. I even remember making posts like that as scum in my first game - I remember because someone called me out on it, I think it was robz.
I'm on phone, so I just snipped the parts I was referring to in his earlier post.
A lot of suspicion flying in sentences that end in question marks!
In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.
Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam?
[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.
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Vote Count 1.2:
Robz888(3): Mail-Mi, Voltaire, Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (2): Chairs, Eevee
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (2): Yuma, Walrus
Not Voting (1): Robz888
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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I'll just say that I feel very comfortable with my vote right now.
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Just popping in to say that I don't mind a wagon on Walrus. Hes a slight scummy read.
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The first wagon never succeeds, a Day 1 wagon against me has very little chance of succeeding, and one with absolutely no evidence has zero chance of succeeding. So, for better or worse, there's nothing I have to do to stop this wagon.
sudgy.
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If it's a nulltell, then is your vote on him just for pressure?
No.
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Thanks for the reads post, faust, that's something to work with. I fully admit that I've been more active in this game than in previous ones. Part of that is that I have accrued a bit of experience and feel more comfortable...I am also trying to limit myself to one game at a time. Toy Story looks cool and everything, but I get the feeling that if I joined another game, I would only invest half the effort in each one, and I think that's kind of lame. And yes, I realized that jumping on you for the same reason is a bit hypocritical. It was just my initial observation to kick off the game.
Eevee, I wouldn't describe it as asking for town's "permission", so much as gauging the town's interest. It seems like I'm the only one who's talked about mail-mi (excepting EFHW's finding my finding him scummy scummy), and I was wondering if anyone else shared my sentiments. I didn't want to vote for him (yet) because I wanted to see if this EFHW train goes anywhere. But I still think he's being scummy, and I'd like to know what others think. By now I think he's been lurkier than Robz with less actual genuine content to consider. And I think I express my suspicion through question marks quite often actually haha
Oh chairs, you're comfortable with your vote? Good for you. I think that it's bad form to vote for me, say you've got some secret quote that you can't transcribe right now because you're at work, and then still withhold it even now. I remember that secret case in M31, but I couldn't imagine that this is anything like that, and that ended up being engineered by scum anyway, right? Hey chairs, there's some quote somewhere that you've written that makes me feel that you're scummy, so I'm going to vote for you. Oh no wait, there's not, because you haven't written anything yet worth analyzing. My sympathy for your bad Internet is dissipating.
No kidding, mail-mi. No kidding.
And good point Voltaire.
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Yuma, what do you think of Walrus in relation to EFHW?
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Thanks for the reads post, faust, that's something to work with. I fully admit that I've been more active in this game than in previous ones. Part of that is that I have accrued a bit of experience and feel more comfortable...I am also trying to limit myself to one game at a time. Toy Story looks cool and everything, but I get the feeling that if I joined another game, I would only invest half the effort in each one, and I think that's kind of lame. And yes, I realized that jumping on you for the same reason is a bit hypocritical. It was just my initial observation to kick off the game.
Eevee, I wouldn't describe it as asking for town's "permission", so much as gauging the town's interest. It seems like I'm the only one who's talked about mail-mi (excepting EFHW's finding my finding him scummy scummy), and I was wondering if anyone else shared my sentiments. I didn't want to vote for him (yet) because I wanted to see if this EFHW train goes anywhere. But I still think he's being scummy, and I'd like to know what others think. By now I think he's been lurkier than Robz with less actual genuine content to consider. And I think I express my suspicion through question marks quite often actually haha
Oh chairs, you're comfortable with your vote? Good for you. I think that it's bad form to vote for me, say you've got some secret quote that you can't transcribe right now because you're at work, and then still withhold it even now. I remember that secret case in M31, but I couldn't imagine that this is anything like that, and that ended up being engineered by scum anyway, right? Hey chairs, there's some quote somewhere that you've written that makes me feel that you're scummy, so I'm going to vote for you. Oh no wait, there's not, because you haven't written anything yet worth analyzing. My sympathy for your bad Internet is dissipating.
No kidding, mail-mi. No kidding.
And good point Voltaire.
You seem so... different. Less jokey, which I associate with your town self. Maybe it's because it's your first time being scum? Yeah, still fine with wagon. In fact, vote: walrus
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Eevee, I wouldn't describe it as asking for town's "permission", so much as gauging the town's interest. It seems like I'm the only one who's talked about mail-mi (excepting EFHW's finding my finding him scummy scummy), and I was wondering if anyone else shared my sentiments. I didn't want to vote for him (yet) because I wanted to see if this EFHW train goes anywhere. But I still think he's being scummy, and I'd like to know what others think. By now I think he's been lurkier than Robz with less actual genuine content to consider. And I think I express my suspicion through question marks quite often actually haha
Oh chairs, you're comfortable with your vote? Good for you. I think that it's bad form to vote for me, say you've got some secret quote that you can't transcribe right now because you're at work, and then still withhold it even now. I remember that secret case in M31, but I couldn't imagine that this is anything like that, and that ended up being engineered by scum anyway, right? Hey chairs, there's some quote somewhere that you've written that makes me feel that you're scummy, so I'm going to vote for you. Oh no wait, there's not, because you haven't written anything yet worth analyzing. My sympathy for your bad Internet is dissipating.
mail-mi usually lurks and sheeps as town, so those are not scum tells for him. I think all you're seeing is most of the "vets" who have played with him before seeing what they'd expect, and therefore not spending much time on him. I am always theoretically up for a mail-mi vote D1, though (like I am for most all players).
And thank you for reminding me chairs did not post his case. Chairs, we need that.
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No more Mr. Nice Noob! >:(
:P
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Yeah, mail-mi is so problematic. I honestly feel quite bad about it, but like half the time my first reaction to reading a post of his is wanting to vote for him. I've really tried to work on analyzing him better, but he's been scum in like every game lately, so that has been a bit hard. I've kind of given up, determining it's easier to PoE to mail-mi because mafiay behavior is easier to spot in others than in mail-mi.
It's the perfect cover for scum mail-mi of course, but I don't know what else I can do. I was in like five consecutive town mailmi mislynch wagons before he started being mafia always, I'm still quite scarred from that.
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I like both the Walrus and EFHW wagons/cases. I am trying to decide which one I want to join.
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yuma - do you realize that almost anytime I say you are even a bit scummy you come out in a strong attack against me? Also, I didn't follow mcmc's game. You are saying I: 1. had a null read, 2. wanted to look for useful information in that person's wagon, and 3. found someone scummy for their defense of my null read. These are very common events in a mafia game.
Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on. I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post. Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations. You both responded with long posts and votes against me.
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I like both the Walrus and EFHW wagons/cases. I am trying to decide which one I want to join.
What is there in either wagon to like? More fantasy than fact in both, I'd say.
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I like both the Walrus and EFHW wagons/cases. I am trying to decide which one I want to join.
What about the Robz wagon? He's still my preferred lynch, why do you want to leave the wagon?
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Yuma, what do you think of Walrus in relation to EFHW?
Uh.... I don't know.
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I like both the Walrus and EFHW wagons/cases. I am trying to decide which one I want to join.
What is there in either wagon to like? More fantasy than fact in both, I'd say.
What there is to like about the case on you is that, in its original form, it was unbelievable genius from yuma that nailed theorel to the wall. Now, I don't know yuma's alignment here, and you're not doing what theorel did to the extent he did it, so it doesn't transfer nearly as much. But dang, am I tempted to agree with anyone making a case using that explanation (and I'm keeping that in the back of my mind about yuma).
Walrus has hopped his vote everyone (something I usually find a town-tell), posted a lot more, and the faust on-off was definitely crowd-pleasing. The "new scum" narrative feels strong.
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I like both the Walrus and EFHW wagons/cases. I am trying to decide which one I want to join.
What about the Robz wagon? He's still my preferred lynch, why do you want to leave the wagon?
I may stay there.
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yuma - do you realize that almost anytime I say you are even a bit scummy you come out in a strong attack against me? Also, I didn't follow mcmc's game. You are saying I: 1. had a null read, 2. wanted to look for useful information in that person's wagon, and 3. found someone scummy for their defense of my null read. These are very common events in a mafia game.
What is this based on? This game specifically or overall? The only example of this I can think of was Pirates II, where I feel like you associated by having a scum read on you because you had a scum read on me... but that certainly wasn't the case. sure my read on you was bad, but it was for entirely different reasons. I rarely, if ever, end up with a scum read on someone because they read me scummy. What good does that do? and it certainly isn't the case here. I don't care if you think I am scummy and that isn't going to stop me from finding and posting scummy things about you.
I am saying that scum often takes the "let's see how things continue" approach by expressing a null read initially and then try to steer the conversation by directing suspicion to someone taking a more solid opinion (Eevee) in this case. This is what I think you might be doing.
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3. Robz888 - well, his lurky/anti-town behaviour doesn't give away much.
This is just... repeating a lie over and over again until it becomes the truth. I'm not going to let it go! It's irritating!
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I like both the Walrus and EFHW wagons/cases. I am trying to decide which one I want to join.
I don't like the Walrus case, he doesn't seem any different than he was in M31 to me, and that's the case isn't it? EFHW, I don't know.
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Yeah, mail-mi is so problematic. I honestly feel quite bad about it, but like half the time my first reaction to reading a post of his is wanting to vote for him. I've really tried to work on analyzing him better, but he's been scum in like every game lately, so that has been a bit hard.
Yeah. We rarely go wrong with a mail-mi lynch.
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yuma - do you realize that almost anytime I say you are even a bit scummy you come out in a strong attack against me? Also, I didn't follow mcmc's game. You are saying I: 1. had a null read, 2. wanted to look for useful information in that person's wagon, and 3. found someone scummy for their defense of my null read. These are very common events in a mafia game.
What is this based on? This game specifically or overall? The only example of this I can think of was Pirates II, where I feel like you associated by having a scum read on you because you had a scum read on me... but that certainly wasn't the case. sure my read on you was bad, but it was for entirely different reasons. I rarely, if ever, end up with a scum read on someone because they read me scummy. What good does that do? and it certainly isn't the case here. I don't care if you think I am scummy and that isn't going to stop me from finding and posting scummy things about you.
I am saying that scum often takes the "let's see how things continue" approach by expressing a null read initially and then try to steer the conversation by directing suspicion to someone taking a more solid opinion (Eevee) in this case. This is what I think you might be doing.
Pirates was extreme, but it has happened other times too, just didn't continue like that one did. And I know you also had other reasons for your opinion in the Pirates case.
I find Eevee suspicious b/c his townread on Robz felt manufactured to me given his extensive experience of playing with Robz. I think he is looking for towncred because he knows Robz will flip town. Since then he has called on his own experiences as scum to support accusing Walrus. This always makes me suspicious, as well, but I have seen people do that as town, too.
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Hey lots of posts! I am pleased by this activity.
Maybe I was too hard on you faust. yuma I see your point about the high posting bias. I know that I've been trying to post more myself, so that's sort of sticking my neck out a bit more as well; now that the "confused noob" meta doesn't suit me quite so well I'm trying to actually play the game a bit more. But for right now I am actually more suspicious of the lurkier crowd.
mail-mi finds me suspicious, but that's right after I called him out for being suspicious, so meh.
Of the three non-voters that Voltaire mentioned, I find Robz to be the scummiest. At first I thought you were just being Robz!Robz. But the fact that you "coincidentally" showed up when you were mentioned, and that (as Voltaire put it) you are "hanging your hat" on such a minor contribution--well, that doesn't quite sit right with me. vote: Robz--maybe some semblance of a wagon will move things along, or at least get Robz talking more.
Suspicions towards Eevee--you showed up at the beginning and made quite the show about how you were going to lurk less and participate more. But I haven't exactly seen evidence of that.
For some reason I'm getting a town vibe from EFHW. She's been quite active and seems genuine enough.
Voltaire himself is mostly a town read, although I was expecting a little more activity at the outset. Looks like you've stepped up a bit recently. Same with yuma basically--picking up on some towniness there.
The only other thing I'll add is that in the games I've played in, the "soft deadlines" haven't really worked very well. So I guess I don't really see the point in talking about that too much, and just discussing the deadline does not constitute a "high-content" post in my eyes. Maybe I'm just inexperienced though and the soft deadline has historically been a useful tool.
Also, is that damn plurality lynch clause in effect like it was in M31 and RMM9? I don't see anything about it in the rules. I won't be confounded by that one again come the end of the day.
My dad showed up unannounced preventing me from posting last night. Walrus explicitly calls out his vote for Robz as a wagon building attempt. This is what I found scummy - we frequently see scum use this excuse on day one in an attempt to avoid n making a case for their reads. Still phone posting but I'll be damned if that stops me from calling you out!
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vote: EFHW
Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...
Well, this is pretty interesting. It's so early I have no read on Robz. Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment. So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him. Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him? I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.
middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)
last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.
This EFHW case seems a little constructed. It's basically this: "EHFW is acting like theorel did in that other game, only not exactly. I think she will do this and that in the future, and that would be scummy."
So EFHW has done something which weakly remsembles theorel's behaviour in M32, and you vote for her for something that she hasn't even done yet. In order for this to not look suspicious, you say "it's always better to tell town what you are thinking" which sounds reasonable but is actually false (see the whole secret case stuff in M31). It seems the reason you posted this now is more that you fear that this whole case is going to fall apart if EFHW doesn't do what you expect her to.
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Yuma, what do you think of Walrus in relation to EFHW?
Uh.... I don't know.
I had something for this...what was it. Oh, right.
I take it you find EFHW scummier, then, as she is your current vote? I saw you had voted for Walrus early on. Basically, I was/am interested in your thoughts on the Walrus wagon, now that it is bigger, since you had been voting for him earlier.
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Pirates was extreme, but it has happened other times too, just didn't continue like that one did. And I know you also had other reasons for your opinion in the Pirates case.
I find Eevee suspicious b/c his townread on Robz felt manufactured to me given his extensive experience of playing with Robz. I think he is looking for towncred because he knows Robz will flip town. Since then he has called on his own experiences as scum to support accusing Walrus. This always makes me suspicious, as well, but I have seen people do that as town, too.
What games would those be?
Cause I don't think we have played that many games together... Not enough for it to be a trend.
We were partners in MXX.
Pirates you already mentioned, we haven't played in any other normal games since then...
We were together in ZM14... I don't think it happened there, but I remember little from that game. We were together in ZM12, again remember very little from that.
Double checked ZM14 you had a town read on me, so nothing there I think
ZM12 I never had a scum read on you....
RMM games... Have we been any together?
LOR2... I did a search for votes on you... You received one vote for you all game... From TA day3... So I didn't vote for you there.
So basically you are using exactly one game as evidence (Pirates) and then saying that there are other examples of which as far as I can tell there are exactly none!
?
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Post Count
27 Voltaire
20 EFHW
18 yuma
15 faust
13 Eevee
12 Robz
11 Walrus
9 mail-mi
6 chairs
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Post Count
27 Voltaire
20 EFHW
18 yuma
15 faust
13 Eevee
12 Robz
11 Walrus
9 mail-mi
6 chairs
It's interesting how little this post count resembles my impression of how active the players have been...
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It's interesting how little this post count resembles my impression of how active the players have been...
Agreed. I get pretty much nothing from it. I usually eliminate the top poster from my lynch pool but I can't very will eliminate myself (I always do).
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Surprised to see Voltaire lead the post count. I guess it's that he has been going against the flow lately, especially day 1. I honestly think that's a great thing and love his approach, a bit surprised we aren't seeing any original ideas from him here yet.
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Yuma, what do you think of Walrus in relation to EFHW?
Uh.... I don't know.
I had something for this...what was it. Oh, right.
I take it you find EFHW scummier, then, as she is your current vote? I saw you had voted for Walrus early on. Basically, I was/am interested in your thoughts on the Walrus wagon, now that it is bigger, since you had been voting for him earlier.
I mean... yeah. I guess I have a scummier read on EFHW than Walrus. My initial vote on him was pretty early for something rather insignificant... the removing of a vote. I think I found his putting it back on to be on the townier side rather than scummier.... maybe. It is one of those things that is kinda a tossup.
I could vote for him, but at this point I am not going to vote for him just because his wagon is now bigger when there are other options out there that I think are better (albeit slightly).
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Surprised to see Voltaire lead the post count. I guess it's that he has been going against the flow lately, especially day 1. I honestly think that's a great thing and love his approach, a bit surprised we aren't seeing any original ideas from him here yet.
He's like always leading the post count since his return though. Although I seem to think he was more subdued in the game where he was actually scum, XXIX.
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Robz, why haven't you voted for anyone yet?
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Robz, why haven't you voted for anyone yet?
There's no specific reason. Nothing has jumped out at me and caused me to place a vote.
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Surprised to see Voltaire lead the post count. I guess it's that he has been going against the flow lately, especially day 1. I honestly think that's a great thing and love his approach, a bit surprised we aren't seeing any original ideas from him here yet.
He's like always leading the post count since his return though. Although I seem to think he was more subdued in the game where he was actually scum, XXIX.
I know, the surprise was because I didn't think he had been that present in this game - mostly because he hasn't had the original ideas I've grown to expect from him. I think Voltaire's day 1 reads have been better than anyone else's lately, but here he hasn't to my understanding done anything but criticize or sheep existing cases. Going with the flow without causing any waves is not what I'd expect from town Voltaire day 1.
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I know, the surprise was because I didn't think he had been that present in this game - mostly because he hasn't had the original ideas I've grown to expect from him. I think Voltaire's day 1 reads have been better than anyone else's lately, but here he hasn't to my understanding done anything but criticize or sheep existing cases. Going with the flow without causing any waves is not what I'd expect from town Voltaire day 1.
This game did get off to a herky-jerky start, though it's fine just now. That's probably the reason. I mean, I guess it's good that I now have a meta of being useful, even if it draws suspicion!
Where I am right now is actually having a lite scumread on yuma, but knowing I don't want to lynch him today. Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch. I'm trying to explore other areas instead. I did my most recent vote count to try to eliminate people, but it didn't work. Chairs is phone-posting so of course he's at the bottom, mail-mi is mail-mi, and I'm at the top, and EFHW looked troublesome to me at the very start. Though I think it's more her normal meta, ie the always questioning/casting suspicion. It looks bad to be though because that is how shraeye also plays, and I haven't spent much time with town!shraeye (just Clue I think).
Which means my lynch pool is still 8. :-\
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Which means my lynch pool is still 8. :-\
7.
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So, you think it's good play to exempt players like yuma and Voltgloss (not playing here, I know) from the day 1 lynch pool completely, barring very obvious scumslips or such? I ask because I've been pondering this - it seems their playstyle automatically rewards them with a pass for at least the first two days, and I'm wondering if it's good collective town play from us or not.
Really, when was the last time yuma got lynched AT ALL? Must be more than 10 games ago?
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So, you think it's good play to exempt players like yuma and Voltgloss (not playing here, I know) from the day 1 lynch pool completely, barring very obvious scumslips or such? I ask because I've been pondering this - it seems their playstyle automatically rewards them with a pass for at least the first two days, and I'm wondering if it's good collective town play from us or not.
No, just yuma*. And just for now. Because here's the thing - scum** always kills town!yuma. Always. The one game where he threw a big fit about that not being true, he was the SK.
*and one other player, who is not in this game
**the one game since I've been here where this hasn't been true was WWTWDP, and I was scum. I have no idea why we didn't kill yuma.
As metas change and more games go into the books, this sort of thing changes.
And maybe I'll want to lynch yuma tomorrow. Just not today.
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So, you think it's good play to exempt players like yuma and Voltgloss (not playing here, I know) from the day 1 lynch pool completely, barring very obvious scumslips or such? I ask because I've been pondering this - it seems their playstyle automatically rewards them with a pass for at least the first two days, and I'm wondering if it's good collective town play from us or not.
Really, when was the last time yuma got lynched AT ALL? Must be more than 10 games ago?
There is actually like a good reason to not lynch the better players. If they are town, well, it's worse lynching the better town players than the mediocre town players. Also, we expect them to get killed by scum because they are good--and lynching them feels like doing scum's job for them. And then if the good players survive too long, we have some cause to think they are scum (hopefully good evidence, and their survival is evidence itself, of a kind).
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Yeah, we are in agreement. I didn't mean to criticize Voltaire, just a topic I've thought about before but never really discussed with anyone.
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So, you think it's good play to exempt players like yuma and Voltgloss (not playing here, I know) from the day 1 lynch pool completely, barring very obvious scumslips or such? I ask because I've been pondering this - it seems their playstyle automatically rewards them with a pass for at least the first two days, and I'm wondering if it's good collective town play from us or not.
Really, when was the last time yuma got lynched AT ALL? Must be more than 10 games ago?
I haven't been lynched as town since....... MXI. I am pretty sure that includes all games (Blitz and RMM as well). And have only ever been lynched on day1 once in Ozle Mafia 1.
If you talk at all, as in including scum games ... I was lynched in the end of WWD(letters I can't remember) and the end of MXIX.
I don't know if it is good town play to just give me a pass. I do think the general idea of letting players that are likely going to be nightkilled live is a good one. But I am not always NKed on early days. I am I think more often than not, especially if my reads are good, but there are numerous examples of me living for an extended period of time as town. Some basic examples are Buffy, Pirates and Simple Mafia. All of those games I lived until the end of the game as town.
I don't really ever give anyone a pass because they are good players. We are all good players. I DO however give semi-passes to players that I have an extremely hard time reading on day1. Voltgloss, Robz and shraeye. Those players I can read better on later days compared to others--partially because they are good players, but also because of their metas.
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Robz, why haven't you voted for anyone yet?
There's no specific reason. Nothing has jumped out at me and caused me to place a vote.
Ok. I know that you are generally more cautious with your vote, but I find that a bit surprising... I think there have been a handful of things worth of placing a vote (some I disagree with the interpretation, but others I see the validity).
Say this was semi-blitz and you had to place a vote. Where would it be?
Basically I am asking for your reads. You haven't really given any at all. you said you didn't see the case on EFHW and that was about it. What are you thoughts?
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So, you think it's good play to exempt players like yuma and Voltgloss (not playing here, I know) from the day 1 lynch pool completely, barring very obvious scumslips or such? I ask because I've been pondering this - it seems their playstyle automatically rewards them with a pass for at least the first two days, and I'm wondering if it's good collective town play from us or not.
Really, when was the last time yuma got lynched AT ALL? Must be more than 10 games ago?
There is actually like a good reason to not lynch the better players. If they are town, well, it's worse lynching the better town players than the mediocre town players. Also, we expect them to get killed by scum because they are good--and lynching them feels like doing scum's job for them. And then if the good players survive too long, we have some cause to think they are scum (hopefully good evidence, and their survival is evidence itself, of a kind).
Total agreement with robz right here.
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The nine lords were at the table in the council room, arguing and yelling at one another, when Grand Maester Pycelle walked in. He waited for the lords to quiet down, then spoke softly, stroking his beard.
"My lords, it seems we have a message from Hightower. The maesters have made a decision -- the summer is no more.
Winter is coming."
Vote Count 1.3:
Robz888(2):, Voltaire, Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (3): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (2): Yuma, Walrus
Not Voting (1): Robz888
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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Where I am right now is actually having a lite scumread on yuma, but knowing I don't want to lynch him today. Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch. I'm trying to explore other areas instead.
Since no one else is talking about anything, I am going to ask about this?
what is causing this read (even if it is lite)?
Previously you have said about me:
Fascinating unusual behavior by yuma, as far as I can tell, but I see no reason to be concerned by it right now.
And while I am asking a question, what conclusion did you come to in regard to Walrus/EFHW? You said you were deciding which was scummier and which you wanted to join. But you are still on Robz yes? Is that where you want to be?
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The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
Am I the only one who finds this suspicious (manufactured b/c Eevee knows Robz well)? I know Voltaire agreed w/me that Robz would indeed say that as scum.
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The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
Am I the only one who finds this suspicious (manufactured b/c Eevee knows Robz well)? I know Voltaire agreed w/me that Robz would indeed say that as scum.
I don't get what the issue is. What eevee is saying here is true.... Playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz. Sure Robz is capable of being that bold...
And eevee does know Robz really well. You can't dispute that.
What I do find more suspicious is your suspicion of eevee...
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Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on. I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post. Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations. You both responded with long posts and votes against me.
But mild observations are the scummiest kind!
lol thanks chairs for taking the time to call me out even under such adversity. When you get proper Internet I'll expect you to be posting at volumes upward of 1 Gbit/s!
This recent interaction between EFHW and yuma doesn't make me feel any worse about my current vote. It seems like yuma makes well-reasoned arguments drawing from evidence. I worry a bit that maybe he's pushing it a little too hard, like why is he digging so deep for this? But it still seems more towny than not to me. And also, although I wasn't playing, I followed Dynasty Warriors, and I too was dazzled by the efficacy of town. So I'm willing to listen to any analogies that involve that.
Finding Robz a bit townier lately, with more frequent, more Robzy posts.
I told you I would fall behind in the post count! I wonder how it would look if you tallied total word count?
Surely Voltaire has cultivated a meta of usefulness. But I agree with Eevee; I haven't perceived exactly the kind of zim-zam-boom! usefulness that I expected from you this game. That's sort of what I was driving at earlier. Maybe that was just a problem with my expectation though...obviously you are being an active player now to say the least.
The notion of a legacy pass to experienced players is a subversive meme propagated by the Mafia elite to keep down the proletariat!
Naaaah I can understand that line of reasoning. But how do you think it makes the proletariat feel?
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I just keep finding Walrus' posts scummy. See his last one:
Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on. I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post. Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations. You both responded with long posts and votes against me.
But mild observations are the scummiest kind!
lol thanks chairs for taking the time to call me out even under such adversity. When you get proper Internet I'll expect you to be posting at volumes upward of 1 Gbit/s!
So you obviously saw chairs' accusation, but don't deem it necessary to react to it in any other way than a snarky comment?
This recent interaction between EFHW and yuma doesn't make me feel any worse about my current vote. It seems like yuma makes well-reasoned arguments drawing from evidence. I worry a bit that maybe he's pushing it a little too hard, like why is he digging so deep for this? But it still seems more towny than not to me. And also, although I wasn't playing, I followed Dynasty Warriors, and I too was dazzled by the efficacy of town. So I'm willing to listen to any analogies that involve that.
This is mostly buddying yuma. I mean, "well-reasoned arguments drawing from evidence"? The case on EFHW is more like a weakly-reasoned argument drawing from speculation. Which is fine, it's D1, there's not much evidence around anyway. But then why do you make it sound like yuma was the paragon of reason?
Finding Robz a bit townier lately, with more frequent, more Robzy posts.
I told you I would fall behind in the post count! I wonder how it would look if you tallied total word count?
Surely Voltaire has cultivated a meta of usefulness. But I agree with Eevee; I haven't perceived exactly the kind of zim-zam-boom! usefulness that I expected from you this game. That's sort of what I was driving at earlier. Maybe that was just a problem with my expectation though...obviously you are being an active player now to say the least.
So, you agree with Eevee, with little additional content except buddying Voltaire. I mean, what IS your read on Voltaire now?
I can't help but vote: Walrus now. That's L-1.
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Vote Count 1.4:
Robz888(1) Voltaire
WalrusMcFishSr (4): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (2): Yuma, Walrus
Not Voting (1): Robz888
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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Robz, I know you reject the idea that you haven't been pro-town with your contributions.. but honestly, that and thinking your wagon will dissipate on it's own are the only thoughts of yours I've caught this far. Well, you don't like the Walrus-lynch, because you think he was just as "pleasing the crowdy" (for the lack of a better term) in MC (I disagree with that, but it's reasonable, I haven't gone back to pull examples). What are your reads? What actions of yours prove your towniness and make you worth keeping?
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In a stretch of boredom I actually went ahead and read the first 20 posts of Walrus in MC. He was definitely very jokey like he was here (I've never agreed with finding smileys or humor scummy, I recall that being at least a part of someone's reason for voting for him here though), but I don't see any of the hesitation he is showing here. Just votes with reasons provided, no asking for permissions of validations. I'm happy with my Walrus-vote.
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what is causing this read (even if it is lite)?
Honestly, I can't call it more than a "gut" read right now. Your play is different. The Robz thing was interesting, and on a scale of 0 to 78 with 78 being obvscum I've decided it was a 41c now. You seem to be more passive about your primary case than you usually are. You don't seem to be as dominating of a leading voice as I'm expecting. I think we can all agree why this read is "lite" at best.
And while I am asking a question, what conclusion did you come to in regard to Walrus/EFHW? You said you were deciding which was scummier and which you wanted to join. But you are still on Robz yes? Is that where you want to be?
I came to the conclusion this morning that I want to stay on Robz. I think I would only switch to EFHW (of the current candidates), but I don't want to right now. Walrus, I realized, was seeming scummy in RMM9 for exactly this sort of behavior, and he was town. If I remember right, there was some of it in M31 too, and he was town. EFHW on the other hand really only has the high post count going for her. Everything else simply doesn't read town to me.
I'll happily explore other options, but midway through D1, I like my vote on Robz.
Speaking of other candidates...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
Am I the only one who finds this suspicious (manufactured b/c Eevee knows Robz well)? I know Voltaire agreed w/me that Robz would indeed say that as scum.
Yes, and I still agree with you. Yuma (CAUTION: Crazy assumptions to follow), EFHW is saying that Eevee is defending Robz for towncred, because he knows Robz will flip town. While the rest of us, not knowing Robz's alignment, can easily see the play that Eevee says is town as scum.
Or I could go with my gut. Walrus/yuma scumteam.
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Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on. I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post. Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations. You both responded with long posts and votes against me.
But mild observations are the scummiest kind!
Ok then. That helps me understand your reaction, and yuma's too. I didn't realize that's how comments like that were perceived. I guess you thought I was insidiously trying to sneak something in that would affect people w/o calling attention to myself?
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Or I could go with my gut. Walrus/yuma scumteam.
Voltaire - what do you make of them voting me one after the other?
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Oh boy, my first real wagon!
No faust, I didn't deem it necessary to respond beyond that. I thought it was a rather superficial reason which is rather open to personal opinion. There is nothing inherently wrong about wagon building, especially when the game needed a kick in the ass at that point. When I joke I'm "snarky", when I don't I'm "different", apparently.
"Paragon of reason"? I found in that exchange that yuma was leaning more on rationale and research, while EFHW's responses seemed more like emotional reactions that didn't hold up to what yuma was asserting. Do you disagree with this? I even went so far as to qualify my trust. Call it "buddying" if you want, but that sounds like more spin to me.
More accusations of "buddying"? I'd call it "expressing a town read". Is that frowned upon now? Here's my stance: I found Voltaire less than towny at the beginning of the game; now I'm feeling more towny about him, certainly not a great D1 lynch, but not as towny as he could be.
Eevee, can you be more specific about the "hesitation" or permission-seeking you're talking about? Still that one time I asked about mail-mi? Or is there something else you're looking at?
I would just ask that you announce intent to hammer before you do anything rash, because spoiler alert: I'm not scum.
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Or I could go with my gut. Walrus/yuma scumteam.
Voltaire - what do you make of them voting me one after the other?
Yuma'd be totally willing. I could see him instructing Walrus to do so*. Who would ever suspect scum leading the wagon!*
*I am not pursuing this team seriously right now.
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"Paragon of reason"? I found in that exchange that yuma was leaning more on rationale and research, while EFHW's responses seemed more like emotional reactions that didn't hold up to what yuma was asserting. Do you disagree with this? I even went so far as to qualify my trust. Call it "buddying" if you want, but that sounds like more spin to me.
This exactly:
vote: faust
I'll add in some other thought when I get a chance, right now I am in the middle of updating the stats.
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Now that I understand why I seemed scummy, I would like to officially apologize and request another chance!
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Now that I understand why I seemed scummy, I would like to officially apologize and request another chance!
Granted! You should vote for faust! That would make you seem less scummy....
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Now that I understand why I seemed scummy, I would like to officially apologize and request another chance!
Granted! You should vote for faust! That would make you seem less scummy....
What? Voting for me makes one seem less scummy? Well, if that's the case, vote: faust!
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I'm going to go with chairs. Vote: chairs
He has what I like to call "lack of presence." Meaning I don't recall him saying anytihng weighty. I checked his posts, they are very few, and there's nothing there.
Also, he suffers the POE. I don't want to lynch yuma. I don't find Voltaire scummy yet, or Eevee. I don't see anything to the cases on faust or Walrus. Walrus is just like he was in M31, and faust is actually more active, and well just different i tone, I think than his scum performance in M31.
Mail-mi, well I will always be up for lynching mail-mi, but he hasn't really done anything egregious here. And I said before I think the people who voted for me early are probably townie.
EFHW would be an okay lynch.
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Now that I understand why I seemed scummy, I would like to officially apologize and request another chance!
Granted! You should vote for faust! That would make you seem less scummy....
What? Voting for me makes one seem less scummy? Well, if that's the case, vote: faust!
Hey look a self-vote!!! vote: faust again!
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What are the other reasons, yuma?
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what is causing this read (even if it is lite)?
Honestly, I can't call it more than a "gut" read right now. Your play is different. The Robz thing was interesting, and on a scale of 0 to 78 with 78 being obvscum I've decided it was a 41c now. You seem to be more passive about your primary case than you usually are. You don't seem to be as dominating of a leading voice as I'm expecting. I think we can all agree why this read is "lite" at best.
I am being passive about my cases that usual. I am not nearly as sure about any cases that I have been a part of thus far compared to some previous games. I am just not seeing anything that strikes me as gold. At least not yet...
PPE: I am about to get to them, took a quick break after stat crunching
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So my other reason behind my faust vote was that I remember him twice saying something about me that basically reflected a scummy read or a scummy vibe... but then later when he posted a reads list I was null and shouldn't be lynched... I think this coincided with people coming out and saying that I wasn't a good lynch option. So my basic thought is that I wonder if faust was trying to move a mislynch in my direction (pointing out things, with a spin like Walrus said, that I had done to get me lynched, but once he saw it wasn't viable, turned it around and ended up with a nuller, town read on me...
Here are the quotes...
#1Hi all!
Beside the Bulletproof issue, what else can we learn from last game?
1. Don't claim VT randomly. This is bad.
2. Don't derphammer. It is sometimes a fine and useful tool for town, but really, hitting the cop wasn't very ideal last time and I don't expect it to be here.
3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.
4. Don't lurk
As for the Bulletproof issue. I think if the BP is going to claim, claiming day2 is better than claiming day1. Day2 and beyond is where ICs start to become more powerful and there is always the chance that mafia will shoot the bulletproof townie tonight. I am not convinced that the bulletproof townie should claim at all--I'll leave that up to them--but if they ultimately decide to do so, I would suggest doing it Day2.
And with that, perhaps we can talk about something other than this hypothetical that only has a 1/3 chance of existing in the first place.
I don't like this post. First yuma states some pretty obvious "lessons" from the last game, then does weigh in a little on the BP issue, which is okay in content, but doesn't really lead us anywhere, and ultimately suggests talking about "something else" - but doesn't give any proposal what we should talk about instead. The whole post is a little empty.
Vote: yuma
first post... accuses me of having an empty post (remember this was my first post of the game). It isn't empty. I have already discussed this, but I talk about what I think is pertinent information necessary to make sure we don't screw this up. Because town is certainly capable of screwing things up of late... And he completely ignored my next post (and the next post in the thread) which jumps straight into scum hunting.
So he is trying to spin this post as me not contributing, when I obviously am...
More spin, not about me specifically, but more spin:
#2Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!
More lies!
No lies! The following quote is from the mafia QT of M31:
My challenge is probably going to be finding a blanace. I CANT be too active on Day 1, because basically I just never am. I am way more active on Day 1s when I am scum, because I'm tryin to orchestrate things. As town, I just ignore the game until it gets interesting. So I will probably try to do that again here. Also, I am INCRDIBLY busy for the next few days. But I'm rarely a Day 1 target--I think yuma established that I should basically never ever be killed on Day 1.
Vote: Robz
I am less likely to put in a lot of work on Day 1 as town, yes this is true. I don't care less about winning, as Eevee implied. Furthermore, I'm doing stuff, and usually do some stuff anyway, I just worry that I have a scumtell of being around a lot on Day 1 when scum.
And it seems I am remembering wrong.... hmmm.
So faust's next post is his reads post... #35. Yuma - it's just hard for me to read him. But he seems to be a driving force, so I don't want him lynched D1.
which I thought was after the one I am about to post next.
#4vote: EFHW
Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...
Well, this is pretty interesting. It's so early I have no read on Robz. Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment. So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him. Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him? I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.
middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)
last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.
This EFHW case seems a little constructed. It's basically this: "EHFW is acting like theorel did in that other game, only not exactly. I think she will do this and that in the future, and that would be scummy."
So EFHW has done something which weakly remsembles theorel's behaviour in M32, and you vote for her for something that she hasn't even done yet. In order for this to not look suspicious, you say "it's always better to tell town what you are thinking" which sounds reasonable but is actually false (see the whole secret case stuff in M31). It seems the reason you posted this now is more that you fear that this whole case is going to fall apart if EFHW doesn't do what you expect her to.
So my thought process was that faust made posts (I'll go back and number them real quick for clarity...) #1 and #4 before he made his reads post #3. And once he saw some discussion about me and not lynching me (Eevee and Robz and voltaire had this conversation) he backed off his mislynch attempt and went elsewhere... but it appears I have the timeline wrong so that narrative doesn't make sense anymore.
I do think he continues to spin in post #4... saying that my post is "constructed" and based off something EFHW will do in the future. That isn't what the case is. The case is about what she has already done and my talking about the future is in regard to see if she will do something to solidify that read (and my concern that talking about it will prevent her from doing that). And the part about M32... was created by scum so is complete bunk...
So the question is: does my idea of faust spinning overcome my mistake in the timeline...
I am not so sure that it does. I think if my timeline had been correct I would feel really good about this narrative, but as it is.... I am not so sure. Spin (as mcmc and I have discussed in the past) is something done I think more by mafia, but certainly as much by town in an effort to get people to attach to the cases and convince themselves and each other that they are correct... (see the opposite of what I am doing here as I doubt this conscious narrative about my doubt is convincing anyone.)
unvote for now.
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But who puts in more effort to make sure their Day 1 reads are consistent and logically evolving, scum or town? Scum, of course scum.
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I'm going to go with chairs. Vote: chairs
He has what I like to call "lack of presence." Meaning I don't recall him saying anytihng weighty. I checked his posts, they are very few, and there's nothing there.
How do you weigh the fact that he's without internet, and behaved this way in all his other games? (including his epic vig game)
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I don't find Voltaire scummy yet,
Lol.
Also, chairs has no internet and is acting like this all games. Walrus feels different, less jokey like he would be as scum methinks.
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But who puts in more effort to make sure their Day 1 reads are consistent and logically evolving, scum or town? Scum, of course scum.
This is a relevent point...
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Well I don't really have a great idea of who is mafia. I think there is at least one player voting for walrus that is mafia--unless walrus is mafia... in which case hopefully he gets lynched, but for now...--so that would be:
Robz888(1) Voltaire
WalrusMcFishSr (3): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): Walrus
faust (1): faust
chairs (1): Robz888
not voting (1): yuma
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
chairs, eevee, mail-mi and I am including faust here as well...
my faust case kinda blew up. I don't see anything from mail-mi. I could vote for chairs, but his phone posting does have a point. So that leaves eevee... Is the only reason I am not voting for eevee because the other voter is EFHW? Maybe... but is that bad? No. I think eevee had a valid point about robz and don't see it as scummy...
so maybe there isn't mafia on Walrus? Or maybe Walrus is mafia...?
I am going back to vote: EFHW
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Still happy with my vote. Kind of like the "walrus/yuma scumteam" statement, though I'd be chuffed to bits if we actually landed on the scumteam D1.
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Well I don't really have a great idea of who is mafia. I think there is at least one player voting for walrus that is mafia--unless walrus is mafia... in which case hopefully he gets lynched, but for now...--so that would be:
Robz888(1) Voltaire
WalrusMcFishSr (3): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): Walrus
faust (1): faust
chairs (1): Robz888
not voting (1): yuma
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
chairs, eevee, mail-mi and I am including faust here as well...
my faust case kinda blew up. I don't see anything from mail-mi. I could vote for chairs, but his phone posting does have a point. So that leaves eevee... Is the only reason I am not voting for eevee because the other voter is EFHW? Maybe... but is that bad? No. I think eevee had a valid point about robz and don't see it as scummy...
so maybe there isn't mafia on Walrus? Or maybe Walrus is mafia...?
I am going back to vote: EFHW
I think you can rule out mail-mi and chairs based on lack of information and then say so maybe there is no mafia on Walrus. It seems like the logical conclusion would be there may or may not be mafia on Walrus, and you don't know. And even if Eevee's point was genuinely intended, he could still be mafia, too.
I'm not sure you totally get my point on Eevee. Yes, his statement was generally logical, and for many people seeing them make a daring comment would lead you to find them towny. For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though. He would say that dissipate comment precisely because people would think it was too daring for scum to say. Therefore, I think we can't draw any conclusion from his comment about his alignment. Eevee would know this, so Eevee's using that reasoning to find specifically Robz towny is surprising, and makes me think he is looking for a way to disassociate himself from the lynch of a towny, or, less likely, defending a mafia partner.
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My first sentence there should say "can't" not can.
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but my point is that I don't think eevee ever specifically called robz townie...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
Instead he draws a nulltell from it just like you say he should....
For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though.
Or am I still missing something here?
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re: Walrus, the case on him seems to be that he is a 1st time mafia making characteristic early mistakes:
1) He flip-flopped on a vote and seemed too reactive to pressure, as though he was scum worried about scrutiny.
2) He seemed to ask for permission/validation re: his reads, again presumably b/c he is worried about critical scrutiny.
3) To some people his tone feels different, less funny.
These are all consistent with the new mafia scenario. I think they are also consistent with the "just emerging from nooby town status" scenario. He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.
If we can't come to a consensus on anyone better, I could see myself going along with his being the lynch for today. I hope we find either more on him or something better about someone else, though.
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but my point is that I don't think eevee ever specifically called robz townie...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
Instead he draws a nulltell from it just like you say he should....
For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though.
Or am I still missing something here?
He's contradicting himself. If he says he doesn't see mafia saying something like that, he is saying he thinks Robz is town. He follows it up with a disclaimer, but essentially he has said that Robz's comment makes him think Robz is not mafia.
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Well I don't really have a great idea of who is mafia. I think there is at least one player voting for walrus that is mafia--unless walrus is mafia... in which case hopefully he gets lynched, but for now...--so that would be:
Robz888(1) Voltaire
WalrusMcFishSr (3): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): Walrus
faust (1): faust
chairs (1): Robz888
not voting (1): yuma
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
chairs, eevee, mail-mi and I am including faust here as well...
my faust case kinda blew up. I don't see anything from mail-mi. I could vote for chairs, but his phone posting does have a point. So that leaves eevee... Is the only reason I am not voting for eevee because the other voter is EFHW? Maybe... but is that bad? No. I think eevee had a valid point about robz and don't see it as scummy...
so maybe there isn't mafia on Walrus? Or maybe Walrus is mafia...?
I am going back to vote: EFHW
I think you can rule out mail-mi and chairs based on lack of information and then say so maybe there is no mafia on Walrus. It seems like the logical conclusion would be there may or may not be mafia on Walrus, and you don't know. And even if Eevee's point was genuinely intended, he could still be mafia, too.
I'm not sure you totally get my point on Eevee. Yes, his statement was generally logical, and for many people seeing them make a daring comment would lead you to find them towny. For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though. He would say that dissipate comment precisely because people would think it was too daring for scum to say. Therefore, I think we can't draw any conclusion from his comment about his alignment. Eevee would know this, so Eevee's using that reasoning to find specifically Robz towny is surprising, and makes me think he is looking for a way to disassociate himself from the lynch of a towny, or, less likely, defending a mafia partner.
Just as an aside, I really think that forum Mafia, and particularly forum Mafia played with a reasonably consistent supergroup (that is to say that the majority of the games you're in will feature at least some of the same players, though we don't all play in every game) is a remarkable game as we strive to play one level higher than each other.
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I just want to re-emphasize part of my last post:
He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.
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but my point is that I don't think eevee ever specifically called robz townie...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
Instead he draws a nulltell from it just like you say he should....
For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though.
Or am I still missing something here?
He's contradicting himself. If he says he doesn't see mafia saying something like that, he is saying he thinks Robz is town. He follows it up with a disclaimer, but essentially he has said that Robz's comment makes him think Robz is not mafia.
contradictions aren't scummy... nor do I think it is a real contradiction. To me he is trying to figure out if robz is scum. He doesn't know anything--at least he doesn't if he is town--about robz's alignment and is trying to make a real effort to determine that. Just because he thinks Robz as scum wouldn't do that doesn't mean he thinks robz is town, because he knows--as well as all of us--that robz is capable of doing just that, but that he doesn't think he would.
This isn't doing it for me. Not at all. I mean... look at some of this other posts... This one for example...
Robz, I know you reject the idea that you haven't been pro-town with your contributions.. but honestly, that and thinking your wagon will dissipate on it's own are the only thoughts of yours I've caught this far. Well, you don't like the Walrus-lynch, because you think he was just as "pleasing the crowdy" (for the lack of a better term) in MC (I disagree with that, but it's reasonable, I haven't gone back to pull examples). What are your reads? What actions of yours prove your towniness and make you worth keeping?
where he doesn't come out and say "I have a scum read on you" but instead he is asking more from Robz so that he can have a better read on him and solidify something on him. This isn't the type of post you post if you have a strong town read on someone...
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and I should note that I am not necessarily saying either that I think eevee is town. No. I don't know that quite yet... or really have a strong read on him.
But rather I am saying that I think EFHW's reason for finding him scummy is 1. null and void and 2. somewhat suspicious as posts previously have laid out. Hence my whole discussion about this.
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I just want to re-emphasize part of my last post:
He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.
Or..
He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.
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This isn't the type of post you post if you have a strong town read on someone...
One more effort to clarify, and then I'd like to just agree to disagree here. I am arguing that Eevee could be mafia, and in that case he wouldn't have a townread, he would already know Robz's alignment. He would be using his posts to try to position himself while seeming to be trying to figure things out.
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I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.
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OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
I'm going to agree with EFHW (hilariously enough, as she is also one of my scum reads) and say that at the moment I do not have enough information to read mail-mi or chairs and likely won't today, so they're gone.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
and the pool ends up as
WalrusMcFishSr, Robz888, EFHW, Eevee, Faust
Let's take a look at that Robz wagon:
Mail-Mi, Voltaire, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma
and the Walrus wagon:
Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust
and EFHW peaked at 3 unique btw:
mail-mi, yuma, Walrus
Scum likely needs 3 mislynches to win.
I have a secret confession to make. I think I actually really really really like the Walrus case.
Though I also like my vote on Robz still, who is voting for chairs, for what I perceive as very weak reasons.
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OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.
Whatever exemption yuma gets, I deserve as well!
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yuma has exactly the right idea of what I meant.
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Whatever exemption yuma gets, I deserve as well!
Not at all. You're an ok town player, amazing scum player. Yuma is amazing as both.
(no offense meant here, this is my "stock" of your two abilities in comparison. The "yuma pass," like I said, only extends to one other player right now, and they're not in this game. Also, yuma-passes have no cash value and may be canceled without notice. :) )
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I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.
exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...
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OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.
Whatever exemption yuma gets, I deserve as well!
and I still say I deserve no pass at all because the exception is based off a faulty assumption that I always get night killed as town...
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Vote: Voltaire
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Vote: Voltaire
Smiley, right?
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I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.
exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...
I have a choice?
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I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.
exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...
I have a choice?
You don't have a choice about my vote on you, but you have a choice to agree with me about my vote on you... Or you can disagree with it (and we may or may not get back into the conversation we were having)
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I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.
exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...
I have a choice?
You don't have a choice about my vote on you, but you have a choice to agree with me about my vote on you... Or you can disagree with it (and we may or may not get back into the conversation we were having)
I know your vote is mistaken, but I see why you have it there. Where do you stand on Walrus?
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Where do you stand on Walrus?
Walrus... where do I stand on him... I haven't really gone back and looked at the votes on him so I guess I should...
Well I voted for him initially to kinda get the ball rolling on a very slight scummy moment, but other than that... I am just not sure.
Looking at the reasons behind the votes on him:
The wagon on me is obviously going to dissipate, probably even if I do nothing. I'd have to think scum wouldn't dare actually get on right now. So I find these Robz votes pretty towny. How's that for weird thinking?
Part of me just wants to quicklynch Robz because I think it's an interesting tack to go down.
I actually think Walrus threw out a pretty scummy statement in his recent long post, though (sneaking on at work, so I'll try to quote later when I'm tethering at home), so...
vote: walrus
adding in quote about said long statement for reference:
Of the three non-voters that Voltaire mentioned, I find Robz to be the scummiest. At first I thought you were just being Robz!Robz. But the fact that you "coincidentally" showed up when you were mentioned, and that (as Voltaire put it) you are "hanging your hat" on such a minor contribution--well, that doesn't quite sit right with me. vote: Robz--maybe some semblance of a wagon will move things along, or at least get Robz talking more.
My dad showed up unannounced preventing me from posting last night. Walrus explicitly calls out his vote for Robz as a wagon building attempt. This is what I found scummy - we frequently see scum use this excuse on day one in an attempt to avoid n making a case for their reads. Still phone posting but I'll be damned if that stops me from calling you out!
looking at this reasoning it is actually misrepresentative... Walrus says he has a scum read on Robz. He mentions something specifically he finds scummy about Robz (the hat hanging) and then says he is voting to move things along. So... there is nothing explicit about it. He has a scummy read and votes to move things along. What should he just have a scummy read and not do anything about it and not vote? Yeah, cause that would really help us.
This reasoning isn't working for me.
I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
pleasing the crowd... I see what eevee is saying, but I actually kinda read walrus the opposite way on this. Yes, I thought him leaving faust was interesting and worth voting initially. But I think mafia is actually more likely to not go back... That is just tooooo obvious? I guess. I think town is more of the mind to say... "yeah! yuma is right, why am I leaving the faust wagon?" whereas scum I think says "oh, shoot, yuma caught me doing something weird there, let's just leave the situation and not make it any worse..."
You seem so... different. Less jokey, which I associate with your town self. Maybe it's because it's your first time being scum? Yeah, still fine with wagon. In fact, vote: walrus
Yuck. Walrus I think has been just as jokey. Not a sufficient reason to vote if you ask me...
I just keep finding Walrus' posts scummy. See his last one:
Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on. I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post. Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations. You both responded with long posts and votes against me.
But mild observations are the scummiest kind!
lol thanks chairs for taking the time to call me out even under such adversity. When you get proper Internet I'll expect you to be posting at volumes upward of 1 Gbit/s!
So you obviously saw chairs' accusation, but don't deem it necessary to react to it in any other way than a snarky comment?
This recent interaction between EFHW and yuma doesn't make me feel any worse about my current vote. It seems like yuma makes well-reasoned arguments drawing from evidence. I worry a bit that maybe he's pushing it a little too hard, like why is he digging so deep for this? But it still seems more towny than not to me. And also, although I wasn't playing, I followed Dynasty Warriors, and I too was dazzled by the efficacy of town. So I'm willing to listen to any analogies that involve that.
This is mostly buddying yuma. I mean, "well-reasoned arguments drawing from evidence"? The case on EFHW is more like a weakly-reasoned argument drawing from speculation. Which is fine, it's D1, there's not much evidence around anyway. But then why do you make it sound like yuma was the paragon of reason?
Finding Robz a bit townier lately, with more frequent, more Robzy posts.
I told you I would fall behind in the post count! I wonder how it would look if you tallied total word count?
Surely Voltaire has cultivated a meta of usefulness. But I agree with Eevee; I haven't perceived exactly the kind of zim-zam-boom! usefulness that I expected from you this game. That's sort of what I was driving at earlier. Maybe that was just a problem with my expectation though...obviously you are being an active player now to say the least.
So, you agree with Eevee, with little additional content except buddying Voltaire. I mean, what IS your read on Voltaire now?
I can't help but vote: Walrus now. That's L-1.
1. I think walrus' reaction to chairs argument was fine because chair's argument is pretty much bunk I think
2. my case on EFHW isn't weakly-reasoned arguments drawing from speculation. See this topic elsewhere...
3. Hmmm.... expressing mixed opinions on voltaire. Could be hedging... maybe this last point has something, but isn't really anything special
One more relevant post:
In a stretch of boredom I actually went ahead and read the first 20 posts of Walrus in MC. He was definitely very jokey like he was here (I've never agreed with finding smileys or humor scummy, I recall that being at least a part of someone's reason for voting for him here though), but I don't see any of the hesitation he is showing here. Just votes with reasons provided, no asking for permissions of validations. I'm happy with my Walrus-vote.
Again I see eevee's point here. But I think the only isntance that walrus has done this here is in regard to mail-mi, which I think is actually pretty well explained as he was wondering why no one else was expressing scum reads on mail-mi... the answer? We all would be, but have become more used to mail-mi's somewhat scummy meta...
So I think I actually just talked myself into having walrus as my biggest town read (finally a strong read). And I think my lynch pool is everyone currently voting for Walrus+EFHW (who was strongly considering it). I think it is very likely that there is at least one scum here looking for the "easier mislynch"
For clarity that is mail-mi, chairs, EFHW, eevee, faust (so yeah, my lynch pool is five people) I won't be lynching voltaire, Robz, Walrus or yuma today barring something crazy happening.
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Yuma's last post is somehow interesting, stating that Walrus is now his strongest town read, but all he does is pointing out why the reasons people voted for him were bad. Like, nowhere does yuma actually say "I find Walrus towny for this reason", it's all "That reason for finding Walrus scummy doesn't work for me". This is weird, and I'm not sure what to do about it.
That said, I don't want Walrus lynched today. I am confident that I will be able to jugde his actions better with the additional information on D2. Instead, I'm moving my vote to someone I don't think I will be able to have a better read on later.
Vote: Robz
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Yuma's last post is somehow interesting, stating that Walrus is now his strongest town read, but all he does is pointing out why the reasons people voted for him were bad. Like, nowhere does yuma actually say "I find Walrus towny for this reason", it's all "That reason for finding Walrus scummy doesn't work for me". This is weird, and I'm not sure what to do about it.
Again, this looks like spin to me.
I think that Walrus is likely town because I think he is likely a mislynch based upon the cases that have been presented for him thus far. There is no reason that can't equate in a strong town read. There a multliplicity of ways to get reads on people, this is one.
What is weird, is your vote on Robz which basically absolves yourself of any responsibility as you don't actually find him scummy. If he gets lynched and flips town all you have to say was... "well I couldn't read him, so i wanted him lynched." Nice, cozy place for mafia...
vote: faust
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/tag
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Remember shraeye's stance that he likes making a weak case on one of his partners as mafia, because after a weak/bad case has been advanced on someone people tend to find the player town.
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Remember shraeye's stance that he likes making a weak case on one of his partners as mafia, because after a weak/bad case has been advanced on someone people tend to find the player town.
Who do you suspect of doing that here?
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Remember shraeye's stance that he likes making a weak case on one of his partners as mafia, because after a weak/bad case has been advanced on someone people tend to find the player town.
Who do you suspect of doing that here?
What I'm saying is, I don't agree with (some) of yuma's reasons for finding Walrus town - that a bad case (in yuma's opinion) was made on Walrus.
Also worth noting that faust was had previously voted Robz for lying, so his current vote isn't "new".
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Remember shraeye's stance that he likes making a weak case on one of his partners as mafia, because after a weak/bad case has been advanced on someone people tend to find the player town.
Funny that this was brought up immediately after shraeye tagged the thread.
Sure that is a possibility. But there are 4 1/2 (1/2 being EFHW's) cases on him. If Walrus is scum then only one of them can be scum with him. And even then my conclusion that someone currently voting for him being scum is accurate right? So following this conclusion you would agree with me? So what is the problem?
But ultimately that is just shraeye's personal strategy. Maybe someone recently mafia with him would have taken that approach? But ultimately this observation only holds water if shraeye--or anyone else has a history of doing it--is in the game. Anything else is just speculation that requires walrus to be scum.
I stand by my town read.
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Sure that is a possibility. But there are 4 1/2 (1/2 being EFHW's) cases on him. If Walrus is scum then only one of them can be scum with him. And even then my conclusion that someone currently voting for him being scum is accurate right? So following this conclusion you would agree with me? So what is the problem?
But ultimately that is just shraeye's personal strategy. Maybe someone recently mafia with him would have taken that approach? But ultimately this observation only holds water if shraeye--or anyone else has a history of doing it--is in the game. Anything else is just speculation that requires walrus to be scum.
I stand by my town read.
Yes, but everything we're doing is speculating. :P And I actually do see your point - if that is what is happening, then there would be scum on him. But I also don't think scum busses D1 in a 9-player game, at least not when wagons start to be viable later in the day.
Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
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Remember shraeye's stance that he likes making a weak case on one of his partners as mafia, because after a weak/bad case has been advanced on someone people tend to find the player town.
Who do you suspect of doing that here?
What I'm saying is, I don't agree with (some) of yuma's reasons for finding Walrus town - that a bad case (in yuma's opinion) was made on Walrus.
Also worth noting that faust was had previously voted Robz for lying, so his current vote isn't "new".
yeah... about that "lying"
remember how in f.ds if we keep saying something is true somehow it becomes true...
Robz never lied. Eevee said he lied and then faust took that and ran with it (so it was a bad reason for a vote) and now you are saying it... well you are saying that faust had that reason for voting, but your lack of correction regarding it allows it to become true once again.
For clarification here is what happened:
Remember, robz cares about his scum games, less so about his town games. Especially true day 1!
More lies!
No lies! The following quote is from the mafia QT of M31:
My challenge is probably going to be finding a blanace. I CANT be too active on Day 1, because basically I just never am. I am way more active on Day 1s when I am scum, because I'm tryin to orchestrate things. As town, I just ignore the game until it gets interesting. So I will probably try to do that again here. Also, I am INCRDIBLY busy for the next few days. But I'm rarely a Day 1 target--I think yuma established that I should basically never ever be killed on Day 1.
Vote: Robz
Eevee is saying Robz cares about his scum games more than town.
Robz says that is a lie.
faust pulls a quote saying Robz ignores the game as town day1 until it gets interesting
- ignoring a game until it gets interesting doesn't mean he doesn't care about it. I think we have all seen Robz as town get fully invested in a game (Pirates anyone?)
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Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
I think it was because you were giving me a pass but not him. Not sure if it was a frustration vote or a scum read vote.
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- ignoring a game until it gets interesting doesn't mean he doesn't care about it. I think we have all seen Robz as town get fully invested in a game (Pirates anyone?)
Except I agree with the statement that it was Robz lying, or at the very least misdirecting. So no "repeat it until it becomes truth" here for me, I already believe it.
Not sure if it was a frustration vote or a scum read vote.
Exactly. So I want it explained.
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Yuma is starting to behave a little more clearly like town!yuma, I think, so I am going to try to push those other scenarios out of my head and re-evaluate today.
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Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
You supplied the reason yourself.
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Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
You supplied the reason yourself.
But you did not confirm it until now.
This is all fantastically silly. Do you actually think I'm scum? Because you sometimes play this erratically as town I have to try to figure out if your anti-town, confusing, unhelpful play is just normal or scum Robz. It's very frustrating.
I am however fine with my vote still on you right now. Everyone who was voting for Robz, please come back!
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Yuma is starting to behave a little more clearly like town!yuma, I think, so I am going to try to push those other scenarios out of my head and re-evaluate today.
I'm not saying yuma is scum, but it has happened to me several times now, that I suspect someone early on and then they start acting all towny and I put it aside, and they turn out to be scum. Most of the f.ds players now are very capable of seeming very towny. You have to find the indicators of being mafia to make your decision.
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I know that?
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Yuma is starting to behave a little more clearly like town!yuma, I think, so I am going to try to push those other scenarios out of my head and re-evaluate today.
I'm not saying yuma is scum, but it has happened to me several times now, that I suspect someone early on and then they start acting all towny and I put it aside, and they turn out to be scum. Most of the f.ds players now are very capable of seeming very towny. You have to find the indicators of being mafia to make your decision.
i agree with this so much.
Robz, whats the reason for the voltaire vote? I see he understands it, but I don't.
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Robz, whats the reason for the voltaire vote? I see he understands it, but I don't.
:P
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Vote Count 1.5:
Robz888(2) Voltaire, Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (3): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): Walrus
Voltaire (1): Robz888
Faust(1): Yuma
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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I know that?
I figured you probably did, but I like to keep this prominent in my mind and in other town minds.
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Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
You supplied the reason yourself.
But you did not confirm it until now.
This is all fantastically silly. Do you actually think I'm scum? Because you sometimes play this erratically as town I have to try to figure out if your anti-town, confusing, unhelpful play is just normal or scum Robz. It's very frustrating.
I am however fine with my vote still on you right now. Everyone who was voting for Robz, please come back!
Look sonny, I've been catching scum since you were still in diapers. I got my methods. Don't like em? Too bad for you!
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Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
You supplied the reason yourself.
But you did not confirm it until now.
This is all fantastically silly. Do you actually think I'm scum? Because you sometimes play this erratically as town I have to try to figure out if your anti-town, confusing, unhelpful play is just normal or scum Robz. It's very frustrating.
I am however fine with my vote still on you right now. Everyone who was voting for Robz, please come back!
Look sonny, I've been catching scum since you were still in diapers. I got my methods. Don't like em? Too bad for you!
::)
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Look sonny, I've been catching scum since you were still in diapers. I got my methods. Don't like em? Too bad for you!
So are myself and chairs your top scum reads? It's very hard to tell what you're thinking.
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Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
You supplied the reason yourself.
But you did not confirm it until now.
This is all fantastically silly. Do you actually think I'm scum? Because you sometimes play this erratically as town I have to try to figure out if your anti-town, confusing, unhelpful play is just normal or scum Robz. It's very frustrating.
I am however fine with my vote still on you right now. Everyone who was voting for Robz, please come back!
Look sonny, I've been catching scum since you were still in diapers. I got my methods. Don't like em? Too bad for you!
If you are going to play that card you need to be able to back it up.
Robz's correct lynch %: 40.63; Robz's caught scum: 13; town games played: 26
Voltaire's correct lynch %: 69.23 Voltaire's caught scum: 9; town games played: 8
someone asking for you to explain a vote on them is perfectly reasonable. Combine that with it being for what is a ridiculous reason as far as I can tell, I think voltaire's frustration is justified.
You can't just say "too bad for you" and be done with it. That isn't going to fly.
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which isn't to say robz is bad scum hunter... I think a lot of the reason he has a lower % is that he is willing to join a lynch he isn't 100% sure about in hopes of it brining about something worth looking at on a later day... which is something many players basically refuse to do. But to say, or allude, that robz's scumhunting is far away better than voltaire's or anyone else's and thus above examination (especially when we don't know his alignment in this game) just isn't correct.
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I guess if Voltaire is right 70% of the time, you should all lynch me. What are you waiting for?
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vote: Robz888.
I guess if Voltaire is right 70% of the time, you should all lynch me. What are you waiting for?
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vote: Robz888.
I guess if Voltaire is right 70% of the time, you should all lynch me. What are you waiting for?
Okay, good. Two more. Come on.
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vote: Robz888.
I guess if Voltaire is right 70% of the time, you should all lynch me. What are you waiting for?
because I am not so sure he is right!
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Okay, good. Two more. Come on.
If you were serious about this, you'd self-vote.
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vote: Robz888.
I guess if Voltaire is right 70% of the time, you should all lynch me. What are you waiting for?
because I am not so sure he is right!
As soon as Robz had shades of ashersky in his statement, I had to vote him.
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vote: Robz888.
I guess if Voltaire is right 70% of the time, you should all lynch me. What are you waiting for?
Okay, good. Two more. Come on.
You could always selfvote... you would be much more likely to get my vote that way, and perhaps the only way to get my vote at this point...
But self voting for me means you are admitting to being scum. so only self vote if you want to get lynched and if you are scum. Don't self vote if you are town. If you do, it is on you and you alone.
PPE: voltaire says the same thing
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I don't like this recent trend of extreme appeal to emotion.
It's either
a) town faking it, hoping for scum to somehow reveal themselves in a stressful situation (stressful because it's pretty uncomfortable being around someone who throws a hissy fit)
b) town really being that upset (in which case they often replace out or get lynched, neither is desirable)
or c) scum faking it to get out of an argument or just to gain town cred (ashersky in mean girls, Robz in MC31).
Nah, I just don't like the precedent of getting out of a perfectly valid line of questioning by reacting to it like this. It's not fun, I know ashersky argues "I just want to win at any cost", but emotional blackmail is lame, and stuff like this stops being effective when you've done it as scum as well.
Honestly, I just want to ignore the last couple of posts from Robz altogether. My read on him is "been getting to arguments where he has been in the wrong in my opinion, hasn't really contributed at all".
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Okay, good. Two more. Come on.
If you were serious about this, you'd self-vote.
No, because I know I'm town. Alas, I am only right 40% of the time! So people should probably listen to someone with a 70% record instead and vote for me.
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Okay, good. Two more. Come on.
If you were serious about this, you'd self-vote.
No, because I know I'm town. Alas, I am only right 40% of the time! So people should probably listen to someone with a 70% record instead and vote for me.
Robz... that isn't what I am saying at all and you know it!!!
I am saying that your record doesn't absolve you of justifiying your votes in the same way we expect it of everyone else (votlaire included) I just included voltaire as a reference because you were talking to him.
You started this emotional argument by basically saying that you were better at this game than others because you had been around longer and that because of your ancient status you didn't need to explain your vote beyond despite being requested.
All I am saying, is explain your vote on voltaire, or at least back it up beyond what you have already done.
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Sigh.
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I'm this close to starting to policy vote for anyone who does this and continuing until they are lynched. Having fun is more important to me than winning, and I strongly feel that this community would be better off without stuff like this happening in every game these days.
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I'm not being emotional. I'm not upset. I'm sorry if I'm making other people upset, though.
I think we've had something approaching zero interesting and useful character interactions--the game has bee fairly dry and uninteresting so far--so I was trying to stir the pot in a meaningful way. I don't actually think Voltaire is scum, though I do find his humor-as-a-defense grating, it's something he seems to do--or is even more likely to do--as town.
And also I was happy to receive these votes; again, useful interactions.
But okay, I don't want to make people mad, so never mind?
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I pretty much knew you were doing that. Honestly, to me any read gleaned from such actions is a blood diamond. I just personally hate it when these games are taken to that length.
Not mad at you personally, of course.
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I pretty much knew you were doing that. Honestly, to me any read gleaned from such actions is a blood diamond. I just personally hate it when these games are taken to that length.
Not mad at you personally, of course.
I don't think I took it to much of a "length" though. There wasn't really any anger. At least not on my end, and it appears no one else's either.
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I pretty much knew you were doing that. Honestly, to me any read gleaned from such actions is a blood diamond.
And I don't even consider a read from that sort of scenario a diamond. I tried it last game, with Galz, and yeah... it was dumb and didn't yield anything... Responses to those sorts of situations I think are incredibly difficult to read because then you have to delve into the psyche of the person and frankly, as much as we play with each other, we don't really know each other that well... We don't know if another player is having a really bad day, is rushed and stressed from work, didn't get a lot of sleep, etc, etc, etc that goes into the their response.
I am not saying trying to elicit a response is bad, but using emotion or feigned emotion is going to bring out emotional responses and those emotional responses are going to be highly impacted--more so than the current state of the game--by the player's status quo in real life--something that we on f.ds know nothing about
But all this is probably better said in another topic so I guess I'll stop talking about it.
So robz... you dont' find voltaire scummy?
Who do you find scummy?
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I pretty much knew you were doing that. Honestly, to me any read gleaned from such actions is a blood diamond. I just personally hate it when these games are taken to that length.
Not mad at you personally, of course.
I don't think I took it to much of a "length" though. There wasn't really any anger. At least not on my end, and it appears no one else's either.
If faking extreme frustration is ok, then scum will have to do it as well. Having to guess is if someone is actually upset or just faking it to get a read is really awkward. Like, my default is to assume it's fake these days, because it always is. It would make me feel like such a jerk if someone was really upset and I reacted to it like this.
I think this is bad for the same reason lying about irl is bad. This really might just be me, though.
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So robz... you dont' find voltaire scummy?
Who do you find scummy?
Look, I don't find anyone scummy. I find chairs a little more scummy than others for reasons I've stated, and EFHW. I've given my reads man. I laid it all out. I don't have much. I'm reading along but there's just like nothing that sticks out at all.
I didn't realize until now how completely dependent I am on ashersky's Day 1 shenanigans, and I will personally thank him next time I encounter him.
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Basically, if someone seems to have a disproportionately strong emotional reaction to something in the game, I want to be able to say "hey.. you seem to be just having a bad day, maybe step away from the computer, do something fun and continue with mafia tomorrow? we are all friends here!" Nowadays it's always just fake and manipulation, and I don't think that's a healthy direction. I don't want "man, is he scum trying to emotionally manipulate me" to be the first thing going through my head when I see someone in distress.
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I have always tried to scumhunt on Day 1 by needling people, I think this tactic works and is useful and I completely, completely, completely, completely, completely disagree with yuma and Eevee that it yields false reads (or is more likely to yield false reads than sitting around having a conversation about virtually nothing). But I don't want to make people made or belligerent--and I didn't think I was doing that, but Eevee seems to disagree--so never mind?
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So robz... you dont' find voltaire scummy?
Who do you find scummy?
Look, I don't find anyone scummy. I find chairs a little more scummy than others for reasons I've stated, and EFHW. I've given my reads man. I laid it all out. I don't have much. I'm reading along but there's just like nothing that sticks out at all.
I didn't realize until now how completely dependent I am on ashersky's Day 1 shenanigans, and I will personally thank him next time I encounter him.
That is fair, I kinda feel the same way. I am not asking to be accusatory, I am asking because I didn't know where you stood.
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One more comment on this: I aree with like not having way crazy amounts of anger as a tactic, it's just not fun. I don't think I was doing that, though.
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I have always tried to scumhunt on Day 1 by needling people, I think this tactic works and is useful and I completely, completely, completely, completely, completely disagree with yuma and Eevee that it yields false reads (or is more likely to yield false reads than sitting around having a conversation about virtually nothing). But I don't want to make people made or belligerent--and I didn't think I was doing that, but Eevee seems to disagree--so never mind?
I think needling people is fine. I think it becomes frustrating when the person doing the needling takes on an air of offense or extreme frustration. The difference is that as an outside observer I can see 1. the needling and 2. the person being needled's response and if frustration is given out I can see that it might be real...
But if a person fakes an emotion to get other emotions out of people then it becomes extremely complicated to try and delve anything out of... because all of it was predicated off fake emotions that I dont' know if they are authentic or real to begin with. (I am guilty of doing this as well... so it isn't a critique of you specifically).
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I think though that ashersky constantly needles people in a way that makes it easier to determine whether A) he is town/scum, and B) the person he is needling is town/scum and C) the spectators are town/scum.
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Hey everyone, sorry I haven't posted for a while, I was Halloween-ing last night and then catching up on work this morning that I should have done last night.
Oh I get it, when I vote faust then unvote than revote it's scummy, when yuma does it he's a genius ;)
Oh wait, I'm yuma's primary townread? yuma's a genius! The paragon of reason, I would say!
Robz' vote is...interesting. Not what I expected at least. My gut reaction is scummy, but I guess chairs is in my lynchpool as well (he hasn't done much except occasionally show up to criticize me), so I don't know. Just seemed like an odd choice.
And I don't like what Robz is doing right now. I see that the situation has diffused somewhat, but this whole episode doesn't sit right with me. Robz seems so keen to convince people of his devil-may-care attitude about being lynched. First it was "I don't need to do anything; this wagon will dissipate on its own." Now it's this:
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Joker-Yelling-Hit-Me-The-Dark-Knight.gif)
Is this the first-order scum tactic of taking the easy road? No. Is it something I could see scum!Robz trying to pull? Quite possibly. I'm back to vote: Robz. I believe that's L-1.
Although I can't shake the feeling that there's lurky scum still trying to hang on my wagon as well. Apparently you guys are all desensitized to mail-mi, but I haven't been convinced. Robz' vote on chairs could be busing or misdirection.
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Haha Walrus, you are awesome! Laughed out loud at that gif.
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Vote Count 1.6:
Robz888(4) Voltaire, Faust, Chairs, Walrus {L-1}
WalrusMcFishSr (2): Eevee, Mail-mi
Eevee (1): EFHW
Voltaire (1): Robz888
Faust(1): Yuma
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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I do not intend to claim.
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If I were to die right now I would say look off my wagon for scum (except chairs).
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And depending on who hammers, obviously.
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No hammering Robz... at least not for a while. Regardless of his willingness to claim.
Doing so indicates that you are scum and will be lynched tomorrow.
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I should be voting for chairs. Vote: chairs
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No hammering Robz... at least not for a while. Regardless of his willingness to claim.
Doing so indicates that you are scum and will be lynched tomorrow.
3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.
Why don't you think anyone should hammer, yuma?
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That post is more like a Walrus post. Much more like townie walrus than I was perceiving. Keeping him on the back burner , but unvote fn.
Let's see... Wagon on Robz... He's really a null read, Chairs has only phone access so that explains lurking.
Oh yippee gambits -_-. They just frustrate people.
Faust... I could go for Faust. Better than Robz, IMO. Vote: Faust.
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I'm this close to starting to policy vote for anyone who does this and continuing until they are lynched. Having fun is more important to me than winning, and I strongly feel that this community would be better off without stuff like this happening in every game these days.
/signed. I'm already policy voting.
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No hammering Robz... at least not for a while. Regardless of his willingness to claim.
Doing so indicates that you are scum and will be lynched tomorrow.
3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.
Why don't you think anyone should hammer, yuma?
Rule three is expressing a derphammer. Hammering robz when I said to not do so wouldn't be derphammering... it would be admitting to scum.
I didn't want anyone to hammer him because I don't think we have fleshed out the conversation enough and I worried that someone would read his refusal to claim (w/o receiving an intent to vote) as grounds for a vote--something I disagree with because I am not so sure claiming here is the best coarse of action right now anyways--because someone would no longer need to express intent to lynch as that is generally done to allow claiming...
Basically I still think we need to have an "intent to hammer" clause added before someone hammers even if a person has refused the right to claim.
That was basically all I was trying to get across, but didn't have time to spell it all out because of a quick rush to help baby.
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What if Robz flips scum, yuma?
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I don't like the Robz lynch. The entire wagon is based on stuff Robz wanted to happen. Can anyone of the voters point out one aspect of their suspicion that isn't something that Robz chose to do? This is not to say Robz couldn't be scum, but I feel the case really is quite nonexistent (or the same stuff that applies to Robz would also apply to other people). I don't like how non-committal he has been in his positions - but I can remember similarly little from chairs and mail-mi, at least.
I still like my walrus-case, I feel the fact I think I actually DID catch him playing different than in his previous town game is being dismissed too much. I guess I'd be fine with lynching chairs or mail-mi for undercontributing and avoiding the radar, but I really prefer walrus - to me his play hasn't had any towny elements (things he wouldn't do as scum) and I feel the narrative I built for a newer scum is quite strong for day 1.
Yuma I'm pretty null on, while I agree with the no-hammering because I don't want Robz lynched, it's always a bit problematic when someone who isn't considered an IC makes ultimatums like that. I'm not capable of catching scum yuma day 1, and as has been discussed, he is more likely to be nightkilled either way, so that and him generally being very active means we'll get more information on his alignment naturally as the game progresses.
Voltaire I usually have a strong town read on at this point, but I don't have that here. I'd expect him to have be swimming against the current more with useful original ideas.
I don't see much meat to the cases against either EFHW or faust, both generally seem to me like themselves from earlier games.
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What if Robz flips scum, yuma?
Yay!
But let's do it right. claim intent to hammer and let us talk it out
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Yuma I'm pretty null on, while I agree with the no-hammering because I don't want Robz lynched, it's always a bit problematic when someone who isn't considered an IC makes ultimatums like that.
I don't think it was a problematic ultimatum... at all. It is common sense. But it was territory we hadn't really been in before...
someone at L-1 saying they weren't going to claim...
I could very easily see someone thinking... "hey he doesn't need to claim, so I can just go ahead and hammer" and then doing so. That was my intent but didn't say it ver well because I was in a hurry.
If the majority of town thinks robz is scum then he should be lynched--I don't think i will join that majority--but it should still be done the right way regardless of whether or not robz wants to claim. anything else is detrimental to town.
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Oh, I understand your intent now. I agree with that 100%. Just came off a bit strong.
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Eevee could you clarify your case on me a little?
I still like my walrus-case, I feel the fact I think I actually DID catch him playing different than in his previous town game is being dismissed too much. I guess I'd be fine with lynching chairs or mail-mi for undercontributing and avoiding the radar, but I really prefer walrus - to me his play hasn't had any towny elements (things he wouldn't do as scum) and I feel the narrative I built for a newer scum is quite strong for day 1.
So far as I can tell here is the last time you've talked about this:
In a stretch of boredom I actually went ahead and read the first 20 posts of Walrus in MC. He was definitely very jokey like he was here (I've never agreed with finding smileys or humor scummy, I recall that being at least a part of someone's reason for voting for him here though), but I don't see any of the hesitation he is showing here. Just votes with reasons provided, no asking for permissions of validations. I'm happy with my Walrus-vote.
So the main point is against my "hesitation" and "asking for permissions of validations." I asked if there was anything in particular you had in mind, besides the mail-mi thing, but I don't think you responded. What else led you to this perception?
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So we have two wagons that have hit L-1 in the last little bit... on two players that I am leaning toward town on both... Makes me wonder if there might be common elements in both...
Vote Count 1.6:
Robz888(4) Voltaire, Faust, Chairs, Walrus {L-1}
Vote Count 1.4:
WalrusMcFishSr (4): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust
So faust and chairs are the common elements...
In this size of a game I think mafia needs to be on a wagon to push a mislynch through. It is much harder to sit back and let town just mislynch on their own because the wagons are sooo small even at L-1 they can quickly disintigrate and potentially move to themselves or their scum buddies... So I am thinking that chairs and faust have become my two primary candidates... I still think EFHW is suspicious... she isn't on either wagon (along with me and Robz interestingly).
I think people know where I stand on faust, but after reading the few posts from chairs I could be interested in his lynch. I am more inclined to go for faust mostly due to chairs posting habits and lack of internet making it somewhat harder for me to read him as he isn't able to be is normal self regardless of his alignment, but his being on both wagons I think is enough to overcome that, that I would consider him if faust didn't garner the support necessary...
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I'd be interested in seeing the case on Faust summarized.
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I'm moving my vote to vote: chairs. yuma calls him out for misrepresenting Walrus's case on faust, and I think this free pass he is getting for Internet problems is a bad idea. Someone phone posting might make shorter posts and have trouble doing targeted rereads, but this game is not long so far and shouldn't be that hard to keep up with.
He is the other person on both Robz's and Walrus's wagons (he has also voted for faust). He says he's "policy voting" Robz, which is a way to avoid accountability. He's done almost no scumhunting. A couple posts on Walrus, and the rest are theory, comments, or reiterations of his comfort with his vote.
I would still cheerfully switch back to Eevee given support for that wagon.
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I'd be interested in seeing the case on Faust summarized.
your wish... I won't do super long quotes here, I'll link points and then do a brief explainer about them:
Point 1: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309322#msg309322)Both walrus and I have noted (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309349#msg309349) that we feel that faust is spinning stuff to look scummier than it actually is. This second link is messy. I thought I was onto something that didn't pan out because of me misremembering, the relevant paragraph is the third from the bottom and specifically in reference to quotes #1, #2 and #4 where I felt that spinning was going on.
Point 2: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309343#msg309343) a self vote. Alone, not much, but added together, something...
Point 3: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309006#msg309006) This isn't a super solid point, but I am going to include it. It isn't solid because it is calling out something that I think is generally more pro-town... making reads lists. But I am calling it out because of something I remember from modding in MC in the scum QT (http://quicktopic.com/50/H/NBm5xVctSXe2J). I am going to quote here instead of making people read through that monster of a topic:
Faust, I totalllllyyyy thought you were mafia in that game. I was dead wrong...
I found you really scummy, because your reads list basically amounted to active players = towny lurking players = scummy. While you were true, I think a lot of people will find a list like that scummy. Hmmm...trying to think of any more advice...you were pretty spot-on with your reads, actually, so keep doing what you were doing!
In this TA basically says that faust should keep doing what he did in NMIV... posting reads lists that basically amounted to having town reads on active players and scum reads on lurkers... I don't think that faust ever really had a chance to fully do that in MC, so I wonder if he kept that in his pocket and is doing it here. If someone called him out on it, all he has to do is say, "but that is how I was in NMIV!" and he is set. Of course he would know that I probably read that post by TA... but I only just remembered it as I was rereading.
Point 4: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309608#msg309608) Again more spin. Add to it that I think faust wants to try and get a mislynch going on me... he has done this before and this is part of what my case that fell apart was about.... but he knows that there are enough people who have publicly stated that they are against it so he knows that he can't, but still wants to raise suspicion on me, why? Because scum needs three mislynches and if he is scum I am a very attractive mislynch possibility. Obviously this point only holds water if you know I am town or if you have a very strong town read on me.
Point 5: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309852#msg309852) He, along with chairs has been on the two L-1 wagons in the last day. I think this is suspicious because in a game of this size, mafia needs to be the driving forces. They can't let town waltz their way into a mislynch on their own because wagons can dissolve and reform elsewhere (on mafia) so easily that mafia I think will need to feel like they are in full control of the situation. Thus I think mafia is more likely to be on those wagons trying to push forward a mislynch. Here this requires you to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz (so that they would be mislynches) I do happen to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz, they are my highest town reads in that order.
Point 6: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.0;all) "search name: faust" 20 posts. Then look at faust's posting history. Very active early. There have been just over 300 posts this game by all players. Faust's first 12 posts came in the first 100. 6 in the middle 100. 2 in the last 100. This to me is indicative of scum. It is hard to maintain posts of frequency. It really is. My posting when I am scum dips down (I try extremely hard to alleviate that, but it does... it does for everyone) and it becomes progressively harder as days go longer and the game goes longer. Alone this point doesn't carry a lot of weight. But added to the rest...
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I'm moving my vote to vote: chairs. yuma calls him out for misrepresenting Walrus's case on faust, and I think this free pass he is getting for Internet problems is a bad idea. Someone phone posting might make shorter posts and have trouble doing targeted rereads, but this game is not long so far and shouldn't be that hard to keep up with.
He is the other person on both Robz's and Walrus's wagons (he has also voted for faust). He says he's "policy voting" Robz, which is a way to avoid accountability. He's done almost no scumhunting. A couple posts on Walrus, and the rest are theory, comments, or reiterations of his comfort with his vote.
I would still cheerfully switch back to Eevee given support for that wagon.
It isn't a free pass. It is that I have a harder time of reading him because of a lack of posts to judge by. So, yeah, lurking can be added to the case against him for sure, but is that enough to overcome the other scummy stuff that I think faust has done... in addition to lurking of late?
I don't think so. But like I said, I could lynch chairs, but I think faust is the better option.
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That's actually a pretty damn good case for day one.
Regarding my own defense I'll just say that frequent vote hopping is definitely something I have five as town before when I didn't have strong reads on anyone.
I'm legitimately frustrated at the shades of ash that I feel in Robz posts, but as we say "lynch mafia not scum" and all that. vote: Faust
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I'd be interested in seeing the case on Faust summarized.
your wish... I won't do super long quotes here, I'll link points and then do a brief explainer about them:
Point 1: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309322#msg309322)Both walrus and I have noted (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309349#msg309349) that we feel that faust is spinning stuff to look scummier than it actually is. This second link is messy. I thought I was onto something that didn't pan out because of me misremembering, the relevant paragraph is the third from the bottom and specifically in reference to quotes #1, #2 and #4 where I felt that spinning was going on.
Point 2: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309343#msg309343) a self vote. Alone, not much, but added together, something...
Point 3: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309006#msg309006) This isn't a super solid point, but I am going to include it. It isn't solid because it is calling out something that I think is generally more pro-town... making reads lists. But I am calling it out because of something I remember from modding in MC in the scum QT (http://quicktopic.com/50/H/NBm5xVctSXe2J). I am going to quote here instead of making people read through that monster of a topic:
Faust, I totalllllyyyy thought you were mafia in that game. I was dead wrong...
I found you really scummy, because your reads list basically amounted to active players = towny lurking players = scummy. While you were true, I think a lot of people will find a list like that scummy. Hmmm...trying to think of any more advice...you were pretty spot-on with your reads, actually, so keep doing what you were doing!
In this TA basically says that faust should keep doing what he did in NMIV... posting reads lists that basically amounted to having town reads on active players and scum reads on lurkers... I don't think that faust ever really had a chance to fully do that in MC, so I wonder if he kept that in his pocket and is doing it here. If someone called him out on it, all he has to do is say, "but that is how I was in NMIV!" and he is set. Of course he would know that I probably read that post by TA... but I only just remembered it as I was rereading.
Point 4: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309608#msg309608) Again more spin. Add to it that I think faust wants to try and get a mislynch going on me... he has done this before and this is part of what my case that fell apart was about.... but he knows that there are enough people who have publicly stated that they are against it so he knows that he can't, but still wants to raise suspicion on me, why? Because scum needs three mislynches and if he is scum I am a very attractive mislynch possibility. Obviously this point only holds water if you know I am town or if you have a very strong town read on me.
Point 5: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309852#msg309852) He, along with chairs has been on the two L-1 wagons in the last day. I think this is suspicious because in a game of this size, mafia needs to be the driving forces. They can't let town waltz their way into a mislynch on their own because wagons can dissolve and reform elsewhere (on mafia) so easily that mafia I think will need to feel like they are in full control of the situation. Thus I think mafia is more likely to be on those wagons trying to push forward a mislynch. Here this requires you to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz (so that they would be mislynches) I do happen to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz, they are my highest town reads in that order.
Point 6: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.0;all) "search name: faust" 20 posts. Then look at faust's posting history. Very active early. There have been just over 300 posts this game by all players. Faust's first 12 posts came in the first 100. 6 in the middle 100. 2 in the last 100. This to me is indicative of scum. It is hard to maintain posts of frequency. It really is. My posting when I am scum dips down (I try extremely hard to alleviate that, but it does... it does for everyone) and it becomes progressively harder as days go longer and the game goes longer. Alone this point doesn't carry a lot of weight. But added to the rest...
Let me respond to each of yuma's points here:
Point 1: So I'm making things look scummier than they are. Maybe. But that's what you do when you make cases. You focus on what's scummy in order to make you point and get reactions. Yuma himself says at the end of this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309349#msg309349) that spinning is done by town as well, so I don't see how this is a scumtell.
Point 2: That self-vote had a reason, but I won't explain it.
Point 3: That's just like extremely constructed. Have you even read my reads list? I have a town read on a lurker (chairs) and a scum read on an active player (Walrus) there. How is that "having town reads on active players and scum reads on lurkers"?
Point 4: OMGUS? Is it now forbidden to point out things about you that look suspicious just because a majority of players (including me) doesn't want to lynch you today?
Point 5: Yes, for this to work, you would need to have a strong town read on both Robz and Walrus. I don't have that. But yuma seems certain enough about his town reads that he is willing to derive more reads from that, something I find hard to do because the chance of being wrong increases exponentially: Say you are 85 percent sure that Walrus is town and 80 percent sure that Robz is town. (suppose also, for simplicity's sake, that these events are independent) Above that, you are 50 percent sure that I am scum if both Robz and Walrus are town (again, pretty confident), and say you have a null read on me otherwise (because I'm only arguing against this point here). A null read means the probability for me being scum is 2/8=0.25
So what's the overall likelihood that I am scum in this scenario?
P(Walrus is town AND Robz is town)=P(Walrus is town)*P(Robz is town)= 0.85*0.8= 0.68
P(I am scum)=P(I am scum | Walrus is town AND Robz is town)*P(Walrus is town AND Robz is town) + P(I am scum | NOT (Walrus is town AND Robz is town))= 0.5*0.68 + 0.25*0.32= 0.42
The likelihood of me being scum drops by 8 percentage points because you can't be certain that your reads are correct. That's why I prefer what one could call "primary cases" - cases that aren't based on the assumption that others have a certain alignments.
Point 6: My main problem is that most discussions here take place while I'm asleep. So by nature, I'm often not around when lots of posts are happening. It somehow worked early in the game, probably also because it was starting out slowly. Also, I'm quite busy in real life.
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That's actually a pretty damn good case for day one.
Regarding my own defense I'll just say that frequent vote hopping is definitely something I have five as town before when I didn't have strong reads on anyone.
I'm legitimately frustrated at the shades of ash that I feel in Robz posts, but as we say "lynch mafia not scum" and all that. vote: Faust
chairs, which of yuma's points do you find compelling? Points 1-3, of which he himself states that they are weak, OMGUS point 4, point 5 which works with the assumption that two people you already voted for today are town, or the inactivity point 6?
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Faust... I could go for Faust. Better than Robz, IMO. Vote: Faust.
Reasons?
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I don't want to have a big back and forth discussing the points, because I hate it when players do that, it makes it hard to read and just results in huge walls of quoting requotes and is basically impossible to follow.
But what I will say is:
I don't think point 2 is weak in conjunction with everything else. And I don't think point 1 is weak either. Yes spinning can be done by town, but I think the more blatant spinning is often done by mafia and I think you are veering toward the blatant side... I mean I haven't agreed with basically any scum read you have given out this game. All of them seem forced and about silly things that you are misinterpreting or misrepresenting (depending on your alignment) to be scummy. Scum has to spin, they have to! It is the only way to get someone lynched. Town only does it to try and get support for a lynch and doesn't always do it. So, yeah town can. But I still think it is more of a scumtell... and certainly not a nulltell.
Point 3: I do see that you have scum reads on posters and town reads on lurkers. I guess I misread in my haste to post. Feel free to remove that point.
Other points: feel free to find me scummy. But I don't see anything wrong with me finding you scummy for finding me scummy as long as that isn't the only thing. I am calling you out for your entire play. OMGUS is when someone calls out a player specifically for finding them scummy. Especially the way you are doing it. Yay! Math... except I am not deriving reads from it. I already had a scum read on you. Do you want me to just ignore my reads entirely? Or maybe I should first lynch one of my town reads so I can better get a grasp of my scum reads? Yeah... scum would love that. No. In this game if you are going to get anywhere you have to start making assumptions. And I have started making them. And let's face it... you are now considered a lurker. You are and you have done it in a scummy way dropping in the post count as the game has gone on. That point alone would qualify you for a lynch in my book. LALL works pretty well... yes there are other lurkers, some slightly more egregious than you, but then again, they don't have the other evidence stacked up against you.
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yuma, I don't find you particularly scummy. You're making an effort to lynch me, I will flip town (and you know that if you're scum). As scum, you could just go for an easy mislynch (if you're scum, at least one of Walrus/Robz would have to be town) instead, which would probably look less suspicious. Of course I hear you're a good player, so that doesn't make you obvtown, but still, it pushes you to the townier side in my eyes.
I have answered each of you're points as if it were the only "evidence" you have against me. Now you can of course say to every point "this isn't super strong on its own, but in conjunction with the other points..." But lots of weak points don't necessarily add up to a good one.
Now the wagon on me... it's already late D1, and the wagons on Robz and Walrus don't seem to end in a lynch. Scum needs a viable lynch candidate that isn't them. yuma has been pushing me a long time, and is perceived as a good player and a driving force by town. Agreeing with him will not look too bad, even if he's wrong. I think scum is likely to jump this wagon now, and that makes mail-mi and chairs look quite suspicious.
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Now the wagon on me... it's already late D1, and the wagons on Robz and Walrus don't seem to end in a lynch. Scum needs a viable lynch candidate that isn't them. yuma has been pushing me a long time, and is perceived as a good player and a driving force by town. Agreeing with him will not look too bad, even if he's wrong. I think scum is likely to jump this wagon now, and that makes mail-mi and chairs look quite suspicious.
This is a very good point, if you are town. I am very interested in seeing what players who I have townier reads on (robz, walrus and voltaire to an extent think of this case) because it is concerning when the only players agreeing with me are on the scummier side... one seemingly doing so for survival reasons...
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Vote Count 1.7:
Robz888(3) Voltaire, Faust, Walrus
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Faust(3): Yuma, mail-mi, Chairs
Chairs (2): Robz888, EFHW
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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After reviewing the thread in its entirety, I'm still happy to vote for either of faust or robz.
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I'll be on my phone for most of today.
I like the wagon common element argument. I could be down for either lynch.
You know I've had my suspicions of faust from the beginning. But actually I'm finding his response to this pressure here to be on the townier side.
And then these last couple of posts by chairs do not inspire confidence.
yuma: Maybe we should look at faust and chairs.
chairs: I'd really like to know the case on faust!
...sounds like a dodge to me.
The "lynch mafia not scum" platitude seemed a little out of place.
And just now:
After reviewing the thread in its entirety, I'm still happy to vote for either of faust or robz.
Totally empty. So I think I actually am feeling vote:chairs
more right now.
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Having read yuma's case and followed up all his links, I think points 5 and 6 obviously hold water. These are both verifiably true and require no spin to agree with. I think his #4 point also has some validity to it. yuma's discussion of Walrus was judicious and did not read like spinning to me.
Point #3 was just false, something I was going to point out also. #2 is yuma's pet peeve, I don't get much information from it myself. If he was close to lynch, yes, that would be anti-town. This seemed like a joke.
#1 is about spinning. faust said yuma's case against me was constructed, and I agree. I happen to also agree with yuma that was worth mentioning, b/c town doesn't want to get hoodwinked by such shenanigans, and pointing this out is a deterrent just in case I am scum. But I am asserting that getting a scumread on me on that basis is spin on yuma's part and imo certainly merited faust's pointing it out, and he was not the only one.
So, do I think yuma is town making the best case he can according to his perceptions, or do I think he is scum and trying to get a mislynch? His approach to me has felt so scummy. But I am also noticing his having strong town reads, which in a small game would be risky for scum. They want any mislynch they can get, and having strong town reads burns bridges.
I am going to withhold judgment on yuma. I am not convinced about faust, and the people voting for faust (mail-mi and chairs) don't seem to be basing their votes on this case at all. They both seem to prefer to vote impressionistically, meaning they rarely articulate reasons. I'm sticking with my chairs vote.
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Voltaire do you still hold to your vote on Robz? That seemed at the time to be more related to a dispute between you than it was related to scummy behavior on his part. What do you think about the chairs/faust options?
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faust - can you remind me why you are voting for Robz?
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I don't have time to write any sort of a lengthy post/re-read given new developments until late tomorrow. But I did pop in and caught up on the thread. Short version is that the case on chairs is decent and the one on faust I do not like for D1.
And I still hold to my vote on Robz. I maintain a scummy read on him.
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Alright... here is how everyone has stated on faust:
Faust - not going to lynch himself
Walrus - townier read
EFHW - seems to prefer chairs over faust
Voltaire - isn't going to vote for faust
mail-mi - is voting for faust
chairs - is voting for faust
yuma - is voting for faust
Robz - ?
Eevee - ?
We haven't heard from Robz or Eevee yet. The fact that two of my stronger town reads doesn't like the faust case does make me doubt it a bit more, but I do want to hear from the two absentees before considering moving my vote...
In the meantime I will look over chairs a bit more and write something up.
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Ok so chairs:
17 posts, I'll do the same thing I did with faust for comparison purposes. 334 posts in this game. First 4 are in the first 100. 3 posts in the second 100. 6 posts in the third and 4 posts in the last 34. So has been very consistent in low posting.... But still lurking.
Expresses a very confident vote 2 days into the game. This I think is interesting and am surprised no one has mentioned it before. How can chairs be "very (oh he says comfortable, not confident, but same thing) comfortable" with only 2 days? Is this a situation of scum feigning unreasonable confidence whereas you would expect town to be much more unsure at this juncture of the game?
Was really tunnel vision on walrus, only posting about him and in regard to him until a vote for Robz that looked more like a policy vote than anything else.... and he later says it is a policy vote.
And then he votes for faust after I lay out a case that basically says I think faust or chairs is scummy. Note that the same thing I said in regard to faust applies to chairs about being on both L-1 wagons...
Interupted by baby... be back later with more?
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well looks like there wasn't anything new to say... so to repeat
I should note that it isn't frequent voting that I find scummy in regard to chairs (and faust) but rather that both were specifically on the two L-1 wagons. Yes that can be a byproduct of frequently moving a vote around, but I don't really think that chairs or faust have done that. Rather, as I have said before, I feel that in a game of this size, mafia needs to push the wagons through that they can (they can't sit back and let town do it for them) so they have to join them/create them. If they don't the wagons will die and might reform on mafia. And a day1 lynch basically equals death in games of this size...
I still think I prefer voting for faust over chairs. Both I would say are lurking, but are lurking in different ways. chairs has an explanation for his (his internet) although faust does as well (being a different time zone)... but the difference is that faust was more active early and has dramatically fallen off while chairs has always been low throughout the day.
I am willing to vote for chairs, but I still prefer faust. He is an easier read and my read on him is scum. My read on chairs isn't as clear. But is on the scummy side.
I won't be moving my vote until I hear from Robz and Eevee at the least. I may not move it after that, but certainly not before.
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I should mention that Eevee has stated that he found faust to be on the townier side while Robz has stated that he would prefer a chairs lynch (so I imagine he wouldn't be more likely to like a faust lynch over a chairs lynch), but both of these opinions were expressed before I stated my entire case and I wonder if that might change things.
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faust - can you remind me why you are voting for Robz?
Mostly because of this exchange (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309005#msg309005). Additionally, I don't think this playstyle is helping town much (though this probably doesn't indicate alignment). And I've been scum partners with him in M31, so I was able to perceive his play knowing he is scum through the whole game. This slightly aggressive tone definitely fits the way he would play as scum.
As a last point, we've had lots of player interaction with Robz, so a lynch here will be informative at least.
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Ok so chairs:
17 posts, I'll do the same thing I did with faust for comparison purposes. 334 posts in this game. First 4 are in the first 100. 3 posts in the second 100. 6 posts in the third and 4 posts in the last 34. So has been very consistent in low posting.... But still lurking.
Expresses a very confident vote 2 days into the game. This I think is interesting and am surprised no one has mentioned it before. How can chairs be "very (oh he says comfortable, not confident, but same thing) comfortable" with only 2 days? Is this a situation of scum feigning unreasonable confidence whereas you would expect town to be much more unsure at this juncture of the game?
Was really tunnel vision on walrus, only posting about him and in regard to him until a vote for Robz that looked more like a policy vote than anything else.... and he later says it is a policy vote.
And then he votes for faust after I lay out a case that basically says I think faust or chairs is scummy. Note that the same thing I said in regard to faust applies to chairs about being on both L-1 wagons...
Interupted by baby... be back later with more?
I try to always vote with confidence. I'll admit that after the Robz policy vote I've felt a bit lost in this game, unsure whether to trust more in my gut our the consensus. I'm increasingly convinced that I should just go with my gut and damn the majority opinion. vote: walrus
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Again, chairs' post seems quite scummy. I've started out with a town read on him, but this game has progressed and chairs' latest interactions seem like scum. So I'll happily move my vote there if needed. Still prefer a Robz lynch for now.
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Also, this is quite the change of mind within only ~16 hours.
After reviewing the thread in its entirety, I'm still happy to vote for either of faust or robz.
I'm increasingly convinced that I should just go with my gut and damn the majority opinion. vote: walrus
So what, you weren't really happy with voting Robz or me, you just said it because it was "the majority opinion"? Then what did you review the thread for?
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faust - can you remind me why you are voting for Robz?
Mostly because of this exchange (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309005#msg309005). Additionally, I don't think this playstyle is helping town much (though this probably doesn't indicate alignment). And I've been scum partners with him in M31, so I was able to perceive his play knowing he is scum through the whole game. This slightly aggressive tone definitely fits the way he would play as scum.
As a last point, we've had lots of player interaction with Robz, so a lynch here will be informative at least.
How is the exchange that you are talking about any different from the Robz that we saw in MXXX? In that game he was just as absent day1 as he has been here. There he didn't get quite as much flak about it, yes...
and how is this Robz different from the Robz we saw in Dynasty Warriors where he voted for sudgy and pushed buttons when he didn't have a scum read on him, but was doing it as a gambit.
I don't think you can separate out robz here and those robz's even with your knowledge of him in MC31...
There have been multiple games where he has a slightly aggressive tone day1 as town...
What I am saying is I don't think you can catch robz as scum with meta analysis like you are trying to do here. To catch Robz, the times I have caught robz and seen robz be caught, have been via investigation, PoE, mass claims and analyzing interactions late game. I think everytime Rob has been lynched for a meta case like this he has flipped town. Because when it is a meta case it is a toss up and just because of the nature of the games he is more likely to be town than scum...
So until you can convince me that robz has actually done something scummy (something that honestly is very hard to do day1, but I think could be done under the right scenario) you won't get me to vote for him...
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Sorry I'm a bit behind. Let me read...
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Okay, I read yuma's case on faust. I don't think much of it is all that compelling, although worthwhile things to note about faust surely, except Point 5 about being on both L-1 wagons. Yeah, that I could go for.
I still think I prefer chairs. Faust just seems a lot more active to me than he did as scum in M31, that's really the main thing holding me back on him.
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If chairs doesn't work out, or flips town, I'm noticing that mail-mi also voted for both walrus and Robz, right before his most recent vote for faust. yuma did as well, but earlier in the game. He started a Walrus wagon, and put Robz at L-1. I don't know if he explained that, I would be interested to hear why that was and why he changed his mind.
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If chairs doesn't work out, or flips town, I'm noticing that mail-mi also voted for both walrus and Robz, right before his most recent vote for faust. yuma did as well, but earlier in the game. He started a Walrus wagon, and put Robz at L-1. I don't know if he explained that, I would be interested to hear why that was and why he changed his mind.
I think there is avery big difference between voting for people that eventually get to L-1 and voting for someone toward the end of day to L-1. Big difference. Hence why I find faust and chairs scummy for it, but not as much mail-mi and obviously not myself.
My vote on Walrus was at the very beginning of day. He did something unusual in unvoting for faust... but I felt his response was townier
My vote on Roz was also toward the beginning of day and really was a mix of seeing voltaire bring up a valid point on robz and wanting to see how people would react to me voting him to L-1, especially the people on the wagon.... I generally don't vote for reactions, but at that stage in the game something needed to happen. We were basically doing nothing and needed to get something going. So voting for a person that had an ok chance of being scum to L-1 wasn't a huge concern for me. But since then, I feel that other players have become significantly harder to read while Robz I think has sunk back down to the nuller/townier read that I generally have on him day1.
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talking about voting patterns... EFHW has only voted twice the entire day. For eevee and then for chairs. I do tend to find scarce voting to be scummy... see TwistedArcher last game when he only voted for sudgy all day long. But the fact that EFHW was not on either the walrus or robz L-1 wagons (although she vocally supported the Walrus one) somewhat negates that although that is also partially a byproduct of the scarcity of voting by her...
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If chairs doesn't work out, or flips town, I'm noticing that mail-mi also voted for both walrus and Robz, right before his most recent vote for faust. yuma did as well, but earlier in the game. He started a Walrus wagon, and put Robz at L-1. I don't know if he explained that, I would be interested to hear why that was and why he changed his mind.
I think there is avery big difference between voting for people that eventually get to L-1 and voting for someone toward the end of day to L-1. Big difference. Hence why I find faust and chairs scummy for it, but not as much mail-mi and obviously not myself.
My vote on Walrus was at the very beginning of day. He did something unusual in unvoting for faust... but I felt his response was townier
My vote on Roz was also toward the beginning of day and really was a mix of seeing voltaire bring up a valid point on robz and wanting to see how people would react to me voting him to L-1, especially the people on the wagon.... I generally don't vote for reactions, but at that stage in the game something needed to happen. We were basically doing nothing and needed to get something going. So voting for a person that had an ok chance of being scum to L-1 wasn't a huge concern for me. But since then, I feel that other players have become significantly harder to read while Robz I think has sunk back down to the nuller/townier read that I generally have on him day1.
That's what I thought.
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Ya know what, other than the Robz wagon a little bit, I'm pretty much good with all the wagons right now. Order of preference;
Faust
Chairs
Walrus
(Robz)
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talking about voting patterns... EFHW has only voted twice the entire day. For eevee and then for chairs. I do tend to find scarce voting to be scummy... see TwistedArcher last game when he only voted for sudgy all day long. But the fact that EFHW was not on either the walrus or robz L-1 wagons (although she vocally supported the Walrus one) somewhat negates that although that is also partially a byproduct of the scarcity of voting by her...
I did not "vocally support" the Walrus one. I presented arguments for each side and said I could see going along with a Walrus lynch if that's where things ended up at the end of the day, but I hoped we would get a better case or find a better lynch candidate. (see below)
I feel like you are looking for reasons to paint me as mafia. This is the thing I find scummy about your play in this game - It looks like you are systematically trying to weaken my influence and if that is true, it is very, very scummy.
re: Walrus, the case on him seems to be that he is a 1st time mafia making characteristic early mistakes:
1) He flip-flopped on a vote and seemed too reactive to pressure, as though he was scum worried about scrutiny.
2) He seemed to ask for permission/validation re: his reads, again presumably b/c he is worried about critical scrutiny.
3) To some people his tone feels different, less funny.
These are all consistent with the new mafia scenario. I think they are also consistent with the "just emerging from nooby town status" scenario. He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.
If we can't come to a consensus on anyone better, I could see myself going along with his being the lynch for today. I hope we find either more on him or something better about someone else, though.
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Also note that Eevee has only one vote, placed 5 days ago.
I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
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I did not "vocally support" the Walrus one. I presented arguments for each side and said I could see going along with a Walrus lynch if that's where things ended up at the end of the day, but I hoped we would get a better case or find a better lynch candidate. (see below)
That would be vocally supporting... saying you were ok with the lynch nut not joining it.
As an example I am vocally supporting the chairs wagon. I think faust is better, but if the support isn't there then I would be ok with it.
It isn't scummy to vocally support something... the whole sentence that you quote is me ultimately finding you townier because you were not on either the walrus or robz L1 wagons... so I am not sure what your worry is here...
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Also note that Eevee has only one vote, placed 5 days ago.
I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
Good observation.... scummy to only vote once all day long I think.
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Post count going into the final day
1. WalrusMcFishSr - 18
2. Chairs - 18
3. Robz888 - 42
4. Voltaire - 53
5. Yuma - 71
6. EFHW - 43
7. Mail-Mi - 14
8. Eevee - 32
9. Faust - 29
Thoughts: our main candidates for a lynch at this point appear to be lurkers, so that is good. Eevee has been VLA so his posting has dropped. Interesting to note that faust has had 9 posts since I called him out for lurking, at that point he had 20 posts and noted that he only had 2 in the last 100 posts... (scummy response to increase the posting after being called out?) Other than those points I think everyone is about where I would expect them to be, but I still think a lynch in the lurker area would be best.
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Vote Count 1.8:
Robz888(2) Voltaire, Faust,
WalrusMcFishSr (2): Eevee, Chairs
Faust(2): Yuma, mail-mi,
Chairs (3): Robz888, EFHW, Walrus
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Oh, I'm quite wary of yuma. But that doesn't help me parse you.
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Back that up. Right now. Back it up.
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Yeah, not strongly opposed to a chairs lynch. Prefer Faust, but chairs is great.
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Back that up. Right now. Back it up.
Well looks like he has logged off w/o seeing my request to back up his statements. I don't like it, but that is the way it is. But I expect to see something immediately after he gets back on.
And still waiting for eevee to respond to the faust case.
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I'm done dancing this number, loves. We're too good at it by half, and I really should have just outed (and I promise I will ensure I'm outed of anything until this while internet debacle is sorted). Let's just have ourselves a middling and whoever else of you is town can hopefully get something out of the flip.
Oh, and the yuma case is predicated on a couple posts where the surrounding discussion is about me but he appears to basically ignore that topic entirely. But again, phone posting sucks and I'm tired of making the game no fun for me or for the rest of you, so let's just end the day.
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vote: chairs
Sorry I forgot that bit
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Middling = mislynch
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Vote Count 1.9:
Robz888(2) Voltaire, Faust,
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Faust(2): Yuma, mail-mi,
Chairs (4): Robz888, EFHW, Walrus, Chairs
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m.
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Ummm... Intent to hammer, I guess?
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Sorry, still on my phone, very busy weekend.
But what more is there really to say? With the deadline looming, I am happy with a chairs vote. I wasn't particularly convinced by his defense just now. Definitely phone posting sucks, and I can sympathize; I'm doing it right now. But you can't hide behind that.
If nothing else, it seems like he doesn't want to play the game any more. Or maybe this AtE is the desperate final throes of scum.
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This is probably a mislynch. Unvote
Vote: EFHW
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I'm back. Trying to catch up with everything as soon as possible!
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This is probably a mislynch. Unvote
Vote: EFHW
...why? And why EFHW?
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Also note that Eevee has only one vote, placed 5 days ago.
I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
I agree that this is scummy. But... I called out Eevee for exactly the same thing in RMM9, and he was town then.
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Oh, and the yuma case is predicated on a couple posts where the surrounding discussion is about me but he appears to basically ignore that topic entirely. But again, phone posting sucks and I'm tired of making the game no fun for me or for the rest of you, so let's just end the day.
I have no idea what you are talking about here.... none.
and why didn't you back up your statement from before?
I am not asking for crazy quote trees... just some simple "yuma did this and this, so that is why I feel...
as for your AtE... if you really feel that you are making the game unfun (prohint: you aren't) you should /out. I would rather see you be replaced than see you willingly go along with a mislynch of yourself (if you are town). I am sure there are subs available. If you are town then what you are doing is selfish in selfvoting. Look, I don't want you to /out. I think you are doing fine aside from not answering questions when they are posed to you.
and remember... I am voting for faust right now and want to vote for faust right now if you can convince me you are town.... but don't selfvote. That is the only thing you have done thus far that made the game unfun.
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unvote. Mod, if a sub is available please sub me out.
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unvote. Mod, if a sub is available please sub me out.
Sorry that you feel you have to go... Like I said, I thought you were doing fine, but hopefully we will see you around soon for future games
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unvote. Mod, if a sub is available please sub me out.
Request noted. We are looking. Until a substitute is found, everyone should proceed normally -- the deadline will not be extended.
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unvote. Mod, if a sub is available please sub me out.
Sorry that you feel you have to go... Like I said, I thought you were doing fine, but hopefully we will see you around soon for future games
I mostly feel that I've hit the point where I'm more of a drag than a gain on the game, and it's not fun with the posting limitation. Once I no longer have said issue, I will happily join games again.
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This is probably a mislynch. Unvote
Vote: EFHW
I agree. Vote: Robz
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Where the heck is Voltaire?
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Back that up. Right now. Back it up.
This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier with regard to yuma's reactions to comments on his play. I think it is excellent strategy, really, and not necessarily scummy. But it is problematic for the rest of us. I think these semi-aggressive responses could really discourage people from voting for him, and we need to keep that in mind.
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Where the heck is Voltaire?
Here! I just caught up on the thread. I was enjoying a mostly mafia-free weekend.
Honestly I can go either way on most wagons. There's so many if/thens running around, most of which are contradictory, that we just need a flip (or flips after the NK, maybe) to sort everything out.
Still happy with a Robz vote. I see he's up to 3 now. Gonna go re-read the weekend now.
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So after all this, I agree that chairs is more likely town. That's not too good for us, as we lose one town vote short before the deadline. If there's enough time, I want to look at chairs interaction to hopefully find scum, but I'm not sure if I'll manage to do that before the end of the day.
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Back that up. Right now. Back it up.
This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier with regard to yuma's reactions to comments on his play. I think it is excellent strategy, really, and not necessarily scummy. But it is problematic for the rest of us. I think these semi-aggressive responses could really discourage people from voting for him, and we need to keep that in mind.
If someone has a good reason to vote for me, my reactions shouldn't have any weight (fortunately for me in this game, they won't because I am town so can't have any weight at all). But if they are bad reasons or if they are reasons that aren't backed up by facts and examples then you better believe I am going to call them out and demand facts or show that they were actually bunk
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Well we have another L-1 wagon to analyze.
Vote Count 1.9:
Chairs (4): Robz888, EFHW, Walrus, Chairs
And hey! look who is on it again! Faust. Why are people not voting for him. I let it slide before when people said they didn't like my case on him, but now I want to ask specifically. "What don't you like about the case on faust?"
If you already responded feel free to quote a statement. But "it just doesn't feel good" will not suffice. I would like specifics.
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Well we have another L-1 wagon to analyze.
Vote Count 1.9:
Chairs (4): Robz888, EFHW, Walrus, Chairs
And hey! look who is on it again! Faust. Why are people not voting for him. I let it slide before when people said they didn't like my case on him, but now I want to ask specifically. "What don't you like about the case on faust?"
If you already responded feel free to quote a statement. But "it just doesn't feel good" will not suffice. I would like specifics.
Faust is not on this wagon.
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Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Back that up. Right now. Back it up.
This is the kind of thing I was talking about earlier with regard to yuma's reactions to comments on his play. I think it is excellent strategy, really, and not necessarily scummy. But it is problematic for the rest of us. I think these semi-aggressive responses could really discourage people from voting for him, and we need to keep that in mind.
If someone has a good reason to vote for me, my reactions shouldn't have any weight (fortunately for me in this game, they won't because I am town so can't have any weight at all). But if they are bad reasons or if they are reasons that aren't backed up by facts and examples then you better believe I am going to call them out and demand facts or show that they were actually bunk
absolutely, you aren't doing anything wrong. But it's good for the rest of us to keep tabs on our own reactions to your reactions. I might just be projecting my own stuff, but I see a distinct reluctance to vote for you and I think your style may be part of that.
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Well we have another L-1 wagon to analyze.
Vote Count 1.9:
Chairs (4): Robz888, EFHW, Walrus, Chairs
And hey! look who is on it again! Faust. Why are people not voting for him. I let it slide before when people said they didn't like my case on him, but now I want to ask specifically. "What don't you like about the case on faust?"
If you already responded feel free to quote a statement. But "it just doesn't feel good" will not suffice. I would like specifics.
Faust is not on this wagon.
Oh blast.
I saw chairs and read faust... Even though I knew that you had selfvoted. O well. Disregard the previous post...
I think EFHW is the scummiest person on the chairs wagon. But not necessarily the scummiest for being on the chairs wagon, that I would need to look at more in depth, but more just reads overall throughout the game. And I am still not sure chairs is actually town.
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I might just be projecting my own stuff, but I see a distinct reluctance to vote for you and I think your style may be part of that.
I think it is because town knows it is probably smart to keep me alive and scum knows that after they don't NK me I have a really good chance of being a mislynch tomorrow as they can argue I wasn't NKed... All of this goes out the window though if I can find scum and be the driving force behind their lynch (hence why I am playing the way I am playing) and force scum to at least strongly consider NKing me.
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I might just be projecting my own stuff, but I see a distinct reluctance to vote for you and I think your style may be part of that.
I think it is because town knows it is probably smart to keep me alive and scum knows that after they don't NK me I have a really good chance of being a mislynch tomorrow as they can argue I wasn't NKed... All of this goes out the window though if I can find scum and be the driving force behind their lynch (hence why I am playing the way I am playing) and force scum to at least strongly consider NKing me.
Planting the seeds to explain why you'll live? And I'm not forgetting your tunneling of faust.
I think we should lynch Robz. I think anyone who wants to hammer (when he reaches L-1) absolutely should. Robz has stated he will not be claiming. If there are two people out there willing to vote for Robz, there is no reason not to do so.
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I might just be projecting my own stuff, but I see a distinct reluctance to vote for you and I think your style may be part of that.
I think it is because town knows it is probably smart to keep me alive and scum knows that after they don't NK me I have a really good chance of being a mislynch tomorrow as they can argue I wasn't NKed... All of this goes out the window though if I can find scum and be the driving force behind their lynch (hence why I am playing the way I am playing) and force scum to at least strongly consider NKing me.
Planting the seeds to explain why you'll live? And I'm not forgetting your tunneling of faust.
yeah... that is what I am doing. Good job. Why don't you go back and answer my question about faust that I asked everyone to answer. I am not tunneling. But I think he is a wayyyy better lynch than robz. To be honest, I don't even have a clue why you are voting for robz.
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yeah... that is what I am doing. Good job. Why don't you go back and answer my question about faust that I asked everyone to answer. I am not tunneling. But I think he is a wayyyy better lynch than robz. To be honest, I don't even have a clue why you are voting for robz.
1. You are changing the subject.
2. You asked everyone to explain that in a post where you accused faust of something he did not do.
3. Voting is pro-town. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with casting lots of votes.
3a. Should one of the players faust has voted for when they had a big wagon flip town, he will and should get serious scrutiny.
4. Because I think he is scum. I have stated why before. He is actilurking. He is appearing when called out. He is claiming to be making meaningful pro-town contributions when he is not. He is playing just the sort of gambit I can see scumRobz playing.
4a. Yes, of course that could also be townRobz! But I think it's more likely scum, and we have to lynch someone, and I don't like other cases better, and since everyone has a 3/4 chance of being town and yada yada yada yada.
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1. who cares. I am not being lynched today.
2. The fact that I made a mistake in reading doesn't negate my request for an explanation
3. I never said voting wasn't pro-town. I have said the inverse before about EFHW and Eevee. But I think that in a game of this size, scum needs to push a mislynch through and needs to be on the wagons otherwise they collapse and eventually a wagon will form on them or a partner and they will get lynched. Do you disagree with this supposition?
4. I think all of this applied like day3 or day4. But what has changed in the last few days? anything or are you relying on a case made so long ago and continuing to look nowhere else. Cause that my friend is tunneling... what you just accused me of doing.
4a. any sentence that ends with yada yada yada should have just been left as yada yada yada because it obviously isn't important (and actually reading it, yeah... it isn't... it is just a way out for you if he does flip town)
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3. no. faust did come out of the gate roaring which seemed unusual, and you'll note I did call him scummy early on. Overall I have a null read on him. I do disagree that wagons will always form on scum (which you may not have meant to say but seems to be implied in your post)
4. I have considered other options, I do not like them as much.
4a. No, if I had not said that, you would have said "but why can't that be townRobz." I was trying to save us time. And no, I don't need an out if Robz flips town. I'll just have been wrong.
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The Volts have a bias toward always thinking I'm scum. Voltaire's usually gotten it right though, but don't listen to him this time.
I have to see chairs's most recent decisions--to concede defeat, and then try to replace out--as townier, really. It's unfortunate, but it has to be townier.
Yuma, what holds me back on faust is hat this is the polar opposite of how he played M31, to me.
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unvote. My vote on Robz was OMGUS, looking for his reaction. But I don't want to accelerate a wagon on him b/c I have no idea if he is scum. I think we should look at Eevee - who is acting very similar to Voltaire's description of Robz - and maybe Voltaire himself, since he has seemed a lot less present than I am used to him being.
PPE I see Robz is on. Why did you vote for me?
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4. I think all of this applied like day3 or day4. But what has changed in the last few days? anything or are you relying on a case made so long ago and continuing to look nowhere else. Cause that my friend is tunneling... what you just accused me of doing.
Since you didn't really respond to point 4.
4. I have considered other options, I do not like them as much.
I'll do it for you...
post made day1:
I'm down to vote: Robz. Showed up, said an obvious thing, left. Anti-town.
Still day1:
I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
The alternative is to never vote, ever.
That isn't answering my question...
Yeah, that was phrased poorly. So: I am expecting to find scum in lower posters. I am expecting scum to hang back, ish. I am expecting Robz not to play on D1. I am expecting Robz to sorta play D1 if called out on it. Early on D1, I can see all these things being true at once.
Also, it got Walrus to move to Robz after I voted for him! That's interesting, and likely useful down the road. It's the first time someone has reached three votes, and how else do you get the game moving without wagons? This is not to say I am voting for reactions. They're a happy outcome.
Day3:
OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
I'm going to agree with EFHW (hilariously enough, as she is also one of my scum reads) and say that at the moment I do not have enough information to read mail-mi or chairs and likely won't today, so they're gone.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
and the pool ends up as
WalrusMcFishSr, Robz888, EFHW, Eevee, Faust
Let's take a look at that Robz wagon:
Mail-Mi, Voltaire, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma
and the Walrus wagon:
Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust
and EFHW peaked at 3 unique btw:
mail-mi, yuma, Walrus
Scum likely needs 3 mislynches to win.
I have a secret confession to make. I think I actually really really really like the Walrus case.
Though I also like my vote on Robz still, who is voting for chairs, for what I perceive as very weak reasons.
Day5:
I don't have time to write any sort of a lengthy post/re-read given new developments until late tomorrow. But I did pop in and caught up on the thread. Short version is that the case on chairs is decent and the one on faust I do not like for D1.
And I still hold to my vote on Robz. I maintain a scummy read on him.
Vote: voltaire
Voltaire has done nothing all day but push for and vote Robz. All based off stuff he "discovered" day1. I just looked through his posts and he has basically added nothing to the case since his original vote. This is the definition of tunneling and tunneling for a bad reason. I can't believe that town voltaire would think that his case is stronger than any other case out there... I just can't.
Robz, you had a vote on voltaire right? I think this is the way to go. Come join me. Anyone else interested? reread voltaire... all you will see is a bunch of posts about robz and how nothing else is better when the whole case on him was established day1 on somewhat flimsy premises.
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I'm fine with "closer looking" Eevee. As for me, I was doing not-mafia stuff all weekend. That's why you'll find almost nothing from me. I popped in to make sure we weren't lynching or anything. I'm here now.
PPE: yuma's post.
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
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OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
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I'm fine with "closer looking" Eevee. As for me, I was doing not-mafia stuff all weekend. That's why you'll find almost nothing from me. I popped in to make sure we weren't lynching or anything. I'm here now.
PPE: yuma's post.
It wasn't just this weekend. I'm used to you being much more "out there".
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OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
why would you want to lynch me?
Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch.
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I'm fine with "closer looking" Eevee. As for me, I was doing not-mafia stuff all weekend. That's why you'll find almost nothing from me. I popped in to make sure we weren't lynching or anything. I'm here now.
PPE: yuma's post.
It wasn't just this weekend. I'm used to you being much more "out there".
I guess this is a good thing overall to have as a meta, and yes, I am always almost a top, if not the top, poster. But until M31 I wasn't particularly useful. I wasn't particularly useful in M31 either - I couldn't convince anyone of my nearly perfect reads! I personally am not going to be confident in my reads until I have that sort of performance again (even a blind squirrel...). The thing about this game is that I have no strong reads (other than probably townChairs at this point) and that's unusual. I don't think most of the cases made on people have been bunk! Like I said, there's tons of reactions/votes/wagons/stances at this point, and unlocking them is going to require a flip. So let's flip someone. I think it should be Robz. It's not like I won't move my vote to someone else if he's not going through! But up until you unvoted he was either the highest vote-getter or tied for it.
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
It isn't one I would take, but it is one I could see scum taking... and have seen in the past. See TA last game on sudgy.
For me, it isn't so much that voltaire has only been voting for Robz. It is more that he has constantly said he is willing to explore other options when he hasn't. As I read through he said this numerous times... I can pull the quotes if people want. But he never actually appears to go through with analyzing other options. He just kinda dismisses them and says that the Robz lynch is better w/o backing that up.
To me it seems to be a strategy of floating through, tunneling on robz (something that unfortunately we in f.ds tend to give a town read on) and not taking stances anywhere other than that.
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OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
why would you want to lynch me?
Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch.
Because my scum read on you has been growing all day and there comes a point where you think "why am I not lynching my top scum read again?"
It still might be a terrible idea.
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OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
why would you want to lynch me?
Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch.
Because my scum read on you has been growing all day and there comes a point where you think "why am I not lynching my top scum read again?"
It still might be a terrible idea.
then vote. Stop saying you will consider other options other than robz and actually vote somewhere other than robz....
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Yuma, "consider other options" means "compare them to Robz, then vote for the one I like better". Since Robz has always been "winning," my vote has not moved.
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You don't need strong reads to be active. Just be inquisitive! I don't know if a Robz flip would be that helpful - he hasn't taken clear stances on anyone except chairs. He has been unhelpful, that is true, and I suppose we shouldn't let that protect him. But I'd rather have a better case.
Weren't you going to look at Eevee?
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Yuma, "consider other options" means "compare them to Robz, then vote for the one I like better". Since Robz has always been "winning," my vote has not moved.
And I can't see how the better option is one in which a case was formed day1 with nothing added to it when the other options take in the scope of the whole day.
How is your case that was made day1 better than any other case out there that has evidence all the way up to the last few posts?
I don't think you are actually looking at the other options. You are just saying you are because you are mafia and you know that the other options are either your partner or mislynches that you don't want to be a part of.
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Vote Count 1.10:
Robz888(2) Voltaire, Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Faust(1): mail-mi,
Chairs (1): Walrus
EFHW(1): Robz888
Voltaire(1): Yuma
Not voting(2): Chairs, EFHW
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m. That's in about eight hours!
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Weren't you going to look at Eevee?
Yes, but weren't you too? I'm at work, I play in the down-time between tasks.
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And I can't see how the better option is one in which a case was formed day1 with nothing added to it when the other options take in the scope of the whole day.
How is your case that was made day1 better than any other case out there that has evidence all the way up to the last few posts?
I don't think you are actually looking at the other options. You are just saying you are because you are mafia and you know that the other options are either your partner or mislynches that you don't want to be a part of.
Because I don't think those cases are good enough to say that person is scum!
It sure would be a dumb strategy for mafia. One mislynch! FOREVER! (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/370/transcript) This is the opposite of why you think faust is mafia. Why?
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And vote: yuma, Robz doesn't seem to be going through anyway.
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I'm back. Trying to catch up with everything as soon as possible!
So Eevee, on a re-read, seems lite town. Stays on a case he likes (Walrus), says reasonable things about other people. Only scummy thing is the not-understanding-scum-Robz-gambit situation, but that's drowned out by everything else.
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Robz, why are you:
1. wary of yuma
2. so convinced by chairs's actions it overcomes your prior suspicion/vote of him?
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
This is the answer I would give to yuma as to his vote on Voltaire. I have a hard time seeing it for this reason.
Frankly, I don't understand Voltaire's obsessed tunneling of me, but I'm used to it by now! Like I said, I think he has a bias toward me.
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OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
Not particularly.
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Robz, why are you:
1. wary of yuma
2. so convinced by chairs's actions it overcomes your prior suspicion/vote of him?
1) Well he is so dominating you have to be a little wary of him at least.
2) I don't that I can explain "why" I am convinced, just that I am convinced. His actions don't read to me like a guilty man. If he's on a scum team, he's really letting down his buddies by self-voting. The "out" strikes me as something a town player would do as courtesy to other town players (I mean it's still ugh, but it's better than disappearing and self-voting and getting lynched), rather than something a scum player would do. I mean, I read his self-vote as an actually serious self-vote, and scum do not seriously self-vote.
Yes, it could be a gambit--and it's a frustratingly well-executed one, if that--but I don't think so.
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vote: Voltaire. Reread through all his posts. There are several contradictions and virtually no case on Robz. He defends chairs several times, interestingly, saying "of course" chairs is at bottom of his list b/c of phone posting. But then says he is fine with chairs lynch. I notice repeated aspersions cast against myself, Walrus, and yuma but never any vote, and the occasional jab at faust, Eevee or mail-mi.
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I'm voting for EFHW because... I don't know, POE? I have reasons to not lynch most other people, or at least I've seen something in their play where I could go, "Hey, town for this reaosn." I haven't seen that with EFHW.
I must say, find it very, very hard to read EFHW.
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vote: Voltaire. Reread through all his posts. There are several contradictions and virtually no case on Robz. He defends chairs several times, interestingly, saying "of course" chairs is at bottom of his list b/c of phone posting. But then says he is fine with chairs lynch. I notice repeated aspersions cast against myself, Walrus, and yuma but never any vote, and the occasional jab at faust, Eevee or mail-mi.
Well, I guess that's a stronger reason to lynch Voltaire.
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
This is the answer I would give to yuma as to his vote on Voltaire. I have a hard time seeing it for this reason.
Frankly, I don't understand Voltaire's obsessed tunneling of me, but I'm used to it by now! Like I said, I think he has a bias toward me.
This feels so scummy to me. There is one scum strategy that would fit this scenario, and that's hard-core bussing.
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vote: Voltaire. Reread through all his posts. There are several contradictions and virtually no case on Robz. He defends chairs several times, interestingly, saying "of course" chairs is at bottom of his list b/c of phone posting. But then says he is fine with chairs lynch. I notice repeated aspersions cast against myself, Walrus, and yuma but never any vote, and the occasional jab at faust, Eevee or mail-mi.
Well, yeah, of course I'm going to find the majority of players scummy - that's the default starting position. Then try to clear town players. It's how I usually roll, at least (and it's failed miserably this game).
And of course I have contradicting reads, I'm confident about nothing!
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vote: Voltaire. Reread through all his posts. There are several contradictions and virtually no case on Robz. He defends chairs several times, interestingly, saying "of course" chairs is at bottom of his list b/c of phone posting. But then says he is fine with chairs lynch. I notice repeated aspersions cast against myself, Walrus, and yuma but never any vote, and the occasional jab at faust, Eevee or mail-mi.
Well, yeah, of course I'm going to find the majority of players scummy - that's the default starting position. Then try to clear town players. It's how I usually roll, at least (and it's failed miserably this game).
And of course I have contradicting reads, I'm confident about nothing!
except that Robz is scum
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Voltaire comes out of that exchange much scummier than Yuma, and Faust probably isn't going through, so vote: Voltaire.
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Voltaire comes out of that exchange much scummier than Yuma, and Faust probably isn't going through, so vote: Voltaire.
Why. Please give a reason.
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except that Robz is most likely to be scum
FTFY. Sorta. Probably yuma.
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
This is the answer I would give to yuma as to his vote on Voltaire. I have a hard time seeing it for this reason.
Frankly, I don't understand Voltaire's obsessed tunneling of me, but I'm used to it by now! Like I said, I think he has a bias toward me.
This feels so scummy to me. There is one scum strategy that would fit this scenario, and that's hard-core bussing.
Nonsense. Entirely nonsense. Scum who do that on Day 1 are scum who lose. Trust me!
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Okay Voltaire's acting weird.
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Okay Voltaire's acting weird.
Now, or earlier on a re-read?
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
This is the answer I would give to yuma as to his vote on Voltaire. I have a hard time seeing it for this reason.
Frankly, I don't understand Voltaire's obsessed tunneling of me, but I'm used to it by now! Like I said, I think he has a bias toward me.
This feels so scummy to me. There is one scum strategy that would fit this scenario, and that's hard-core bussing.
Nonsense. Entirely nonsense. Scum who do that on Day 1 are scum who lose. Trust me!
what do yuma and Eevee think? You are our other vets.
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Okay Voltaire's acting weird.
Now, or earlier on a re-read?
Now.
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
This is the answer I would give to yuma as to his vote on Voltaire. I have a hard time seeing it for this reason.
Frankly, I don't understand Voltaire's obsessed tunneling of me, but I'm used to it by now! Like I said, I think he has a bias toward me.
This feels so scummy to me. There is one scum strategy that would fit this scenario, and that's hard-core bussing.
Nonsense. Entirely nonsense. Scum who do that on Day 1 are scum who lose. Trust me!
what do yuma and Eevee think? You are our other vets.
They agree with me.
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Okay Voltaire's acting weird.
Now, or earlier on a re-read?
Now.
What's weird about my behavior?
unvote.
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This felt forced to me. Like you're trying to give off a chill attitude.
except that Robz is most likely to be scum
FTFY. Sorta. Probably yuma.
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I think chairs (/out actions) and mail-mi (consistent with town meta) are town or close enough they should be off the table for today's lynch.
I have returned to thinking lynching yuma is a terrible idea today.
Post Count
84 yuma
71 Voltaire
54 EFHW
51 Robz
32 Eevee
29 faust
24 chairs
18 Walrus
16 mail-mi
Robz has posted, physically, way more than I thought.
This felt forced to me. Like you're trying to give off a chill attitude.
except that Robz is most likely to be scum
FTFY. Sorta. Probably yuma.
Yes, I am trying to be chill about yet again being suspected/wagoned D1. I am hoping it is a compliment that scum mislynch me (if that's what's happening). Correcting EFHW's misleading statement about my actions was required.
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Sorry, still on my phone, very busy weekend.
But what more is there really to say? With the deadline looming, I am happy with a chairs vote. I wasn't particularly convinced by his defense just now. Definitely phone posting sucks, and I can sympathize; I'm doing it right now. But you can't hide behind that.
If nothing else, it seems like he doesn't want to play the game any more. Or maybe this AtE is the desperate final throes of scum.
Care to weigh in today post-chairs stuff?
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Yes yes I was just getting to it. I have one more class this morning and then I'll post something serious around lunchtime.
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Yuma, what's the case for townWalrus again?
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I think I will be voting for EFHW, Robz, Walrus, or faust today (I've removed Eevee).
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Voltaire comes out of that exchange much scummier than Yuma, and Faust probably isn't going through, so vote: Voltaire.
Why. Please give a reason.
Mostly a feeling from skimming it over. I am currently in school.
Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
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Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
The one time I hardcore tunneled you, I was scum.
And you're a town read with a D1 pass, btw, no further.
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Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
The one time I hardcore tunneled you, I was scum.
And you're a town read with a D1 pass, btw, no further.
Bit you're usually up for a D1 mail-mi lynch. Your Townself is. It's not very scummy, it's weird bordering on scummy.
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Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
The one time I hardcore tunneled you, I was scum.
And you're a town read with a D1 pass, btw, no further.
Bit you're usually up for a D1 mail-mi lynch. Your Townself is. It's not very scummy, it's weird bordering on scummy.
Paradoxically you bringing this up just makes me have a stronger town read on you.
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Voltaire, I feel like you are spinning, but not in a natural, townie sort of way.
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Voltaire, I feel like you are spinning, but not in a natural, townie sort of way.
Ok, well what do you expect me to do? You haven't defined "natural" or "townie" in relation to any of my actions btw. I am doing what I think I should for town. It's deadline day, it's the first time I'm able to be active in 2 days, and woah there goes the wagon on me! Time to try to avoid at least one mislynch (me) then.
What's your scum narrative?
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Voltaire, I feel like you are spinning, but not in a natural, townie sort of way.
Ok, well what do you expect me to do? You haven't defined "natural" or "townie" in relation to any of my actions btw. I am doing what I think I should for town. It's deadline day, it's the first time I'm able to be active in 2 days, and woah there goes the wagon on me! Time to try to avoid at least one mislynch (me) then.
What's your scum narrative?
My scum narrative on you is this: You were playing town, participating, calling me out as scum as you usually do. You were pretty relaxed, you have a good pro-town reputation and were not under scrutiny. Some othewr candidate like faust or chairs looked likely to go down, and you had this typical vote on me.
Only, well, you realize you didn't justify it well enough, and unfortunately for you, other people are realizing it too. This at the same time that the chairs lynch unravels. Now you realize you could be in some trouble--you have to drastically step up your game! Quick, what do you do? What should you say? You're panicking. But you're more of an expert than that, so you're trying to panic naturally in the townie way. Well, it looks forced to me.
I don't know, sort of my gut reaction on you.
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Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
This is the answer I would give to yuma as to his vote on Voltaire. I have a hard time seeing it for this reason.
Frankly, I don't understand Voltaire's obsessed tunneling of me, but I'm used to it by now! Like I said, I think he has a bias toward me.
This feels so scummy to me. There is one scum strategy that would fit this scenario, and that's hard-core bussing.
Nonsense. Entirely nonsense. Scum who do that on Day 1 are scum who lose. Trust me!
what do yuma and Eevee think? You are our other vets.
I would probably agree with Robz. successful day1 bussing (so actually getting the lynch through, not just voting when there is no or only minimal chance of being lynched) almost always results in a town loss. even in larger setups it is very hard to recover from. Because a player that does this eventually gets PoE pretty hard toward the end of day because the scum certainly aren't going to kill themselves... So if voltaire is scum I am more inclined to think robz is town. I mean.... Robz is capable of anything, but I think even he would be wary of doing something like that.
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vote: Voltaire. Reread through all his posts. There are several contradictions and virtually no case on Robz. He defends chairs several times, interestingly, saying "of course" chairs is at bottom of his list b/c of phone posting. But then says he is fine with chairs lynch. I notice repeated aspersions cast against myself, Walrus, and yuma but never any vote, and the occasional jab at faust, Eevee or mail-mi.
I will say EFHW said a lot better some of the things I was trying to say much more succinctly. I agree with these points.
and I agree with the scum narrative that Robz just presented.
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I don't know, sort of my gut reaction on you.
Do you have anything stronger than a gut reaction on me? I re-read you to see if you've been consistent about this and you did seem to have me as "not scummy" for most of the day.
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Yuma, what's the case for townWalrus again?
This (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309562#msg309562) is where I came to a conclusion that I had more of a town read on Walrus... "case for town" isn't something that I really like. Because it isn't a case that he is town. I don't have time to make cases for people being town. I only have time to make cases for people being scum, so I went through and saw what points people were bringing up about walrus--so the scum cases on him--and analyzed them and saw nothing worthwhile. Nothing. Thus I gleaned more of a town read on him.
Add in that I think he is being the same Walrus--despite what a handful of others have said--as he has in previous games and until I see a drastic change or scum!Walrus successfully pulling off his town!meta I dont' think I will be inclined to lynch him, especially on day1.
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So, at this point we need chairs/Walrus/Eevee/faust to get in here and weigh in. If that means voting for me, at least let me claim/get a final reads post out first.
At this point I am trying to decide if scum is jumping for glee that town is mislynching me or is a driving force behind me now being the leading wagon.
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I don't know, sort of my gut reaction on you.
Do you have anything stronger than a gut reaction on me? I re-read you to see if you've been consistent about this and you did seem to have me as "not scummy" for most of the day.
Well, I mean I explained my gut reaction. The way EFHW put yuma's case on you, it raises some flags about you. And how you are reacitng now I think is scummy. At some level it's a "gut" thing, but not an unfounded one. I'm rapidly changing my mind on you when confronted with new evidence, whereas your position on several players--I htink mostly me, and sort of yuma--is not natural.
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I don't know, sort of my gut reaction on you.
Do you have anything stronger than a gut reaction on me? I re-read you to see if you've been consistent about this and you did seem to have me as "not scummy" for most of the day.
Well, I mean I explained my gut reaction. The way EFHW put yuma's case on you, it raises some flags about you. And how you are reacitng now I think is scummy. At some level it's a "gut" thing, but not an unfounded one. I'm rapidly changing my mind on you when confronted with new evidence, whereas your position on several players--I htink mostly me, and sort of yuma--is not natural.
And why do you no longer agree with EFHW's devils-advocate case for me being town? You liked it at first.
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I don't know, sort of my gut reaction on you.
Do you have anything stronger than a gut reaction on me? I re-read you to see if you've been consistent about this and you did seem to have me as "not scummy" for most of the day.
Well, I mean I explained my gut reaction. The way EFHW put yuma's case on you, it raises some flags about you. And how you are reacitng now I think is scummy. At some level it's a "gut" thing, but not an unfounded one. I'm rapidly changing my mind on you when confronted with new evidence, whereas your position on several players--I htink mostly me, and sort of yuma--is not natural.
And why do you no longer agree with EFHW's devils-advocate case for me being town? You liked it at first.
Because the other stuff is outweighing it.
You certainly going to win my approval by making me belabor the obvious over and over again.
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Vote Count 1.11:
Robz888(1): Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Chairs (1): Walrus
EFHW(1): Robz888
Voltaire(3): Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi
Not voting(2): Chairs, Voltaire
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m. That's in about six and a half hours!
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You certainly going to win my approval by making me belabor the obvious over and over again.
I want to get you on the record if I'm lynched so you can bear your share of the responsibility for it.
Definitely hope others show up. I'll be gone starting about two hours before the deadline.
Also vote: EFHW. She spoke up for me being town, there's the yuma thing (his early case on her) too. Bad gut feeling from early in the day.
This is me deciding to try out the "ignore conspiracy theories where the scum team is two vets" and then voting as such. Probably the right call, as much as my gut doesn't like it. If I live to tomorrow I'll have learned much, and hopefully 1 scum will be dead.
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You certainly going to win my approval by making me belabor the obvious over and over again.
I want to get you on the record if I'm lynched so you can bear your share of the responsibility for it.
Well, I guess that's consistent with you have a scum read on me. I'm not even voting for you, though, man.
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Madness. Madness and stupidity. --Tywin Lannister
Well not the stupidity part. You guys are a bright lot. But definitely madness.
chairs' actions look a lot less like a bluff now. If it is a gambit, then it's a real dirty one that I find reprehensible. But it's enough for me to unvote.
Give me a minute to wade through the other 12 pages and I'll put down my vote elsewhere.
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Well, I guess that's consistent with you have a scum read on me. I'm not even voting for you, though, man.
You have clearly implied/stated you have a strong scum read on me. I would not be surprised to see you vote for me or hammer me.
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You certainly going to win my approval by making me belabor the obvious over and over again.
I want to get you on the record if I'm lynched so you can bear your share of the responsibility for it.
Definitely hope others show up. I'll be gone starting about two hours before the deadline.
Also vote: EFHW. She spoke up for me being town, there's the yuma thing (his early case on her) too. Bad gut feeling from early in the day.
This is me deciding to try out the "ignore conspiracy theories where the scum team is two vets" and then voting as such. Probably the right call, as much as my gut doesn't like it. If I live to tomorrow I'll have learned much, and hopefully 1 scum will be dead.
I'm confused by this post. Did you mean to say I spoke up for you as scum? And I can't figure out what you are saying about conspiracy
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I'm confused by this post. Did you mean to say I spoke up for you as scum? And I can't figure out what you are saying about conspiracy
Yes, I mean to say maybe you're going for towncred by (correctly) pointing out that there's no reasonable scumVolt narrative here. That's not enough to lynch you, obviously, but it's part of a bigger case against you.
"Conspiracy" just means me trying to avoid thinking "they're all out to get me!" and then voting all the good town players (this is what I was doing in B2B with yuma as the JK, and it turned out yuma was the Doc).
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Well, I guess that's consistent with you have a scum read on me. I'm not even voting for you, though, man.
You have clearly implied/stated you have a strong scum read on me. I would not be surprised to see you vote for me or hammer me.
Correct. I really wouldn't be surprised to see you flip town, though. I just don't have very strong reads.
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This whole game is just full of unreadable players. I'm personally sold that one of Yuma or Robz is scum but I'll be damned if I know which.
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Well, I guess that's consistent with you have a scum read on me. I'm not even voting for you, though, man.
You have clearly implied/stated you have a strong scum read on me. I would not be surprised to see you vote for me or hammer me.
Correct. I really wouldn't be surprised to see you flip town, though. I just don't have very strong reads.
Well, it's a good sign to me that you didn't flip out about me joining you on the EFHW wagon. Last time you did that, you were scum. (and so was EFHW, so...hope?)
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This whole game is just full of unreadable players. I'm personally sold that one of Yuma or Robz is scum but I'll be damned if I know which.
Deadline is soon. Vote for one of 'em, then, if they're your top 2 (are they?)
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I'm confused by this post. Did you mean to say I spoke up for you as scum? And I can't figure out what you are saying about conspiracy
Yes, I mean to say maybe you're going for towncred by (correctly) pointing out that there's no reasonable scumVolt narrative here. That's not enough to lynch you, obviously, but it's part of a bigger case against you.
"Conspiracy" just means me trying to avoid thinking "they're all out to get me!" and then voting all the good town players (this is what I was doing in B2B with yuma as the JK, and it turned out yuma was the Doc).
[/q
The scum narrative is still an issue, if bussing is out. But rereading, you have been acting r
ally scummy. Now you think I've been scummy and I'm town. But what reason is there to see you as town? I don't want a mislynch.
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Comments in the quote. Sorry.
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Comments in the quote. Sorry.
You'll have to be specific. Tell me where you see me acting scummy.
The sort-of-backdoor-complement that I've not been as "useful" in this game is true, and that's because of the oft-repeated "no strong reads" this game. I've been scumhunting and posting like normal throughout. I wouldn't regret voting for four or five people. That's unusually large, but so be it, that's the sort of D1 we've had.
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I'm back. Trying to catch up with everything as soon as possible!
Ummm... I don't think you are back
paging eevee... Although it is 11:00 pm in Finland... although eevee has very unusual sleeping patterns if I remember correctly, but we haven't heard anything from our pokemon friend in a really, really long time.
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It's certainly unfortunate if I'm biting the hand that feeds me, that's for sure.
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I feel like we have had a really good day1. obviously if we hit scum it will be even better, but people saying that they can't form reads is kinda bizarre to me.... really the only player I havne't been able to form a read on is chairs due to low posting... everyone else I am pretty comfortable about and it appears that other players are gradually getting stronger reads as well...
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At this point my reads are:
want to lynch: voltaire, faust
willing to lynch: EFHW, chairs
not so interested in: eevee, mail-mi
Won't lynch: robz, walrus
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I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
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OK, so here's my take on all this.
I don't want to vote for faust tonight anymore. He's at least generated a lot of material and reads and stuff that can be analyzed later. Plus someone brought up a good point that maybe my initial suspicion of his activity level should be put in the context of M31, when he was Mafia and much lurkier.
My read on Eevee is pretty null at the moment. Maybe leaning on the scummy side, considering he never really answered my question about his case on me, and because of his single vote all day. But it doesn't look like there's support for a lynch there anyway.
EFHW is back to pretty null for me as well. At least she's consistently had a lot to say. I think there are better options.
yuma's style does seem to be quite aggressive...it looks like he has the ability to go "EFHW is scummy! *wall of text* Look how scummy she is! faust is scummy! *wall of text* Look how scummy he is! X is scummy!..." in a rhetorically convincing way. Hopefully that power is not being used for evil, but it still strikes me mostly on the townier side in this game. I like to see how the targets of this probing react, and the fact that he has been investigating diligently seems pro-town to me. I think Robz put it well when he said that wariness is appropriate here. But I do not wish to vote yuma today.
In my opinion Voltaire has come off rather the scummier in these past few pages. I really thought he'd be in the position of receiving a D1 "helpfulness pass". But I've been emphasizing since the beginning that something seems off about Voltaire's play, not as active and exploratory as it should be. Seeing his reaction to this pressure here has not convinced me in the same way that faust's reaction did, for example. So I'm going to vote: Voltaire. That's L-1 I believe.
I would say that Robz seems townier for the time being; acting more like Robz at least. I'd say Robz is acting more like Robz than Voltaire has been acting like Voltaire. And if Voltaire has been tunneling him...Idk, it could be busing, but that doesn't seem super consistent with the idea of scum!Voltaire (which I know Voltaire, it's just an assumption, but so much of any D1 reasoning is predicated on conjecture). I'll say townier read on Robz right now.
mail-mi still seems somewhat suspicious to me. Maybe not quite as much as he was before. I'm not letting that one go yet haha.
chairs I have discussed. And I am me. That's everyone. I guess I am happy with my Voltaire vote. I'll be around until deadline though in case conditions change rapidly.
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Here are things that led me to vote for you. Like I said, I don't want a mislynch, I'm going with what I see. Show me something else.
1. Saying faust was not scummy and 20 posts later saying he was without saying why.
I think it is very bad to find a player scummy for exploring the strategic theory space of a game. I don't agree with faust but I certainly don't find him scummy for posting a lot at the start. The posts haven't been empty, either.
It certainly does stand out, though. I think I am glad you noticed that.
I find myself agreeing with mail-mi *gasp* that both faust and Walrus have been a little scummy so far.
2. supporting chairs and then suddenly saying you're fine with his lynch.
3. Doggedly sticking to a Robz vote without actually reading him as scum, instead saying you don't have any idea how to read him or were trying to get the game moving again.
Robz has not yet explained his vote on me.
You supplied the reason yourself.
But you did not confirm it until now.
This is all fantastically silly. Do you actually think I'm scum? Because you sometimes play this erratically as town I have to try to figure out if your anti-town, confusing, unhelpful play is just normal or scum Robz. It's very frustrating.
I am however fine with my vote still on you right now. Everyone who was voting for Robz, please come back!
I guess my question to these three people is why does what you say, "1 post" being "anti-town" and "hat hanging" equal scummy?
The alternative is to never vote, ever.
That isn't answering my question...
Yeah, that was phrased poorly. So: I am expecting to find scum in lower posters. I am expecting scum to hang back, ish. I am expecting Robz not to play on D1. I am expecting Robz to sorta play D1 if called out on it. Early on D1, I can see all these things being true at once.
Also, it got Walrus to move to Robz after I voted for him! That's interesting, and likely useful down the road. It's the first time someone has reached three votes, and how else do you get the game moving without wagons? This is not to say I am voting for reactions. They're a happy outcome.
4. Repeated comments that you distrust yuma, Walrus or me, but never saying why or following up with votes.
example 1: I like both the Walrus and EFHW wagons/cases. I am trying to decide which one I want to join.
You never voted for either of us (until this afternoon).
example 2: OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool. [clip....]
I have a secret confession to make. I think I actually really really really like the Walrus case.
Though I also like my vote on Robz still, who is voting for chairs, for what I perceive as very weak reasons.
Here you do give a reason for voting Robz - weak case on chairs, but you never come back to it.
example 3: (from me)
Am I the only one who finds this suspicious (manufactured b/c Eevee knows Robz well)? I know Voltaire agreed w/me that Robz would indeed say that as scum.
Yes, and I still agree with you. Yuma (CAUTION: Crazy assumptions to follow), EFHW is saying that Eevee is defending Robz for towncred, because he knows Robz will flip town. While the rest of us, not knowing Robz's alignment, can easily see the play that Eevee says is town as scum.
Or I could go with my gut. Walrus/yuma scumteam.
5. There are also comments suggesting distrust without saying it, like you are trying to drop in a negative comment without seeming to accuse - the same thing Walrus thought I was doing.
example 1: Fascinating unusual behavior by yuma, as far as I can tell, but I see no reason to be concerned by it right now.
example 2:Yuma is starting to behave a little more clearly like town!yuma, I think, so I am going to try to push those other scenarios out of my head and re-evaluate today.
I see there have been quite a few posts while I've been typing/looking for quotes. I'm not caught up with those, just so you know.
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Sorry guys, I don't have much time right now, so I'll make this short. I'm not sold on the Voltaire case, where does that suddenly come from? EFHW I find hard to read, could be scum I guess. Robz isn't going to go through, but it would still be my preferred lynch. yuma - not today at least. I need some time and information to evaluate his play. Don't want to lynch Walrus. mail-mi is null, he's his usual self, but his usual self has been scum a lot lately. chairs seems townie after the /out thing.
Who's left? Eevee. Is he even there anymore? I guess I'm falling back to LAL. Vote: Eevee.
This is my last post before the deadline. I won't be able to claim or change vote from now on. I hope this day ends well.
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and that last post by faust.... just ugh...
Not so much the him not wanting to vote voltaire part.... I mean that wans't ideal as it looks like he didn't even read the case? What is with that... guess he is in a hurry, but still...
and then a vote on eevee. Yeah, eevee hasn't been around, but he just plops a vote down on someone that is not going to be today's lynch... No one else is voting for him, no one else has considered voting for him... might as well not even vote.
And to be clear I am not finding him suspicious for not being around the rest of the day. Our deadlines are hard for european players, but I DO NOT like how he just ignored the case on voltaire and then plopped a really safe vote down right before deadline... And i am frustrated that I can't really go back to voting for him because he won't be around to claim if he does get up that high... is the risk worth going back to him? I don't know. If I wasn't somewhat certain about voltaire I might go back, but as it is, I think I have them about equal in terms of scumminess...
Major scum read continued on him. IF voltaire flips scum, I might pinpoint him as a partner...
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And to be clear I am not finding him suspicious for not being around the rest of the day. Our deadlines are hard for european players, but I DO NOT like how he just ignored the case on voltaire and then plopped a really safe vote down right before deadline... And i am frustrated that I can't really go back to voting for him because he won't be around to claim if he does get up that high... is the risk worth going back to him? I don't know. If I wasn't somewhat certain about voltaire I might go back, but as it is, I think I have them about equal in terms of scumminess...
I agree, I would lynch him for this.
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Probably over Voltaire, even after everything.
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And I do really like Voltgloss's "quick, pseudo-random lynch right before deadline!" strategy on Day 1 of M31, even though it didn't work.
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Catching up right now. Saw but have not read in detail EFHW's large post. Will reply. Did see the stuff on faust, and I am cool voting him, largely for yuma's reasons. vote: faust.
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Screw it.
Vote: faust
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And to be clear I am not finding him suspicious for not being around the rest of the day. Our deadlines are hard for european players, but I DO NOT like how he just ignored the case on voltaire and then plopped a really safe vote down right before deadline... And i am frustrated that I can't really go back to voting for him because he won't be around to claim if he does get up that high... is the risk worth going back to him? I don't know. If I wasn't somewhat certain about voltaire I might go back, but as it is, I think I have them about equal in terms of scumminess...
I agree, I would lynch him for this.
The question is thus: Do we lynch him today (or try to do so) or do we let him live until Day2 (I am assuming mafia won't be NKing him) and then consider lynching him then for this egregious behavior?
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Well there is my answer, I think...
vote: faust
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{EFHW's big post on me}
I'm going to try to reply to this in general to avoid walls-of-quoted-text posts, which I and I assume others have a nasty habit of skimming.
You are correct to point out that my reads have changed rapidly, in the space of a short number of posts. They totally have, I may have pointed this out at the time somewhere. It's because none of my reads are strong, and most importantly, there are lots of if/then statements. IF yuma is scum, THEN Walrus and Robz are more likely to be scum as well but faust and EFHW are more likely to be town. BUT if yuma is town then faust is a little more likely to be scum. etc etc etc etc etc etc (yada yada yada, if you like ;) ).
And so what you're seeing is me switching back and forth between these "sets" of views, as I find them more likely, and that has a domino effect to all of my other reads. I maintain that this is good smart pro-town thinking and behavior. Robz does too!
But who puts in more effort to make sure their Day 1 reads are consistent and logically evolving, scum or town? Scum, of course scum.
I usually don't explain my gut cases because there is nothing to explain beyond "I have a bad feeling about..." My gut is usually wrong (yuma in B2B, ash in Clue, etc.). It has probably been right once or twice too, but it's not terribly useful. Sometimes I post what my gut is thinking to see if scum tries to convince me to listen to my gut. Can't say it's ever worked.
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Vote Count 1.12:
Eevee(1): Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Voltaire(3): EFHW, Mail-Mi, Walrus
Faust(3): Voltaire, Robz, Yuma
Not voting(1): Chairs
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m. That's in about two and a half hours!
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Vote Count 1.12:
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m. That's in about two and a half hours!
Any progress at all on a sub? Not having a vote is hurting us here.
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This whole game is just full of unreadable players. I'm personally sold that one of Yuma or Robz is scum but I'll be damned if I know which.
Chairs, dude. We need a vote. You've posted since /outing, so I assume you intend to finish this day.
PPE yuma saying the same thing.
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There will not be any replacements for any players before the end of the day.
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There will not be any replacements for any players before the end of the day.
Had chairs been notified of this prior to this message? Maybe you can't answer that... so I'll ask when was this decision made?
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Sorry guys, I don't have much time right now, so I'll make this short. I'm not sold on the Voltaire case, where does that suddenly come from? EFHW I find hard to read, could be scum I guess. Robz isn't going to go through, but it would still be my preferred lynch. yuma - not today at least. I need some time and information to evaluate his play. Don't want to lynch Walrus. mail-mi is null, he's his usual self, but his usual self has been scum a lot lately. chairs seems townie after the /out thing.
Who's left? Eevee. Is he even there anymore? I guess I'm falling back to LAL. Vote: Eevee.
This is my last post before the deadline. I won't be able to claim or change vote from now on. I hope this day ends well.
Rly? Do you really think Eevee has a chance of being lynched 2 1/2 hours before deadline? I'm pretty sure he doesn't but I know you do. I had a scummy read on you before, but this has amplified it.
However, I am also okay with keeping on volt. So I'll stay there, but intent to hammer if someone else switches.
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However, I am also okay with keeping on volt. So I'll stay there, but intent to hammer if someone else switches.
Why not switch now and then let someone else hammer?
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There will not be any replacements for any players before the end of the day.
Had chairs been notified of this prior to this message? Maybe you can't answer that... so I'll ask when was this decision made?
There will be no replacements for any players before the end of the day. That's all we are saying on the matter.
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vote: Faust
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L-1
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vote: Faust
thanks for still playing through the day. really appreciate it.
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Oof, that last faust post was a doozy wasn't it? Certainly it dispels some reservations I had about lynching him.
I could hammer or mail-mi could; I don't care.
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Vote Count 1.13:
Eevee(1): Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Voltaire(3): EFHW, Mail-Mi, Walrus
Faust(4): Voltaire, Robz, Yuma, Chairs
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Day 1 ends November 4 at 8:00 p.m. That's in about two and a half hours!
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However, I am also okay with keeping on volt. So I'll stay there, but intent to hammer if someone else switches.
Why not switch now and then let someone else hammer?
Cuz I wanna hammer! vote: faust
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It is known.
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twilight. Just signed back in. I see why you guys voted him. His flip should be helpful, I hope.
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THREAD LOCKED!!!
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Vote Count 1.Final:
Eevee(1): Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Voltaire(2): EFHW,Walrus
Faust(5): Voltaire, Robz, Yuma, Chairs, Mail-mi
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
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It was well into the night in King's Landing. The sun had set hours ago, and the torches in the council room were flickering. King Robert had left hours ago to go hunting in the godswood, trusting his loyal subjects to sort this problem out themselves.
The nine lords being placed together in one room brought up old grudges that had long been forgotten. Varys and Littlefinger stood by, shaking their heads at the decline in civility among the lords. These were the finest Lords of Westeros, yet they were completely flabbergasted as to who was the most treacherous among them.
Finally, King Robert returned from his hunt, drunk on wine. "Who dares to steal my kingdom from me!" He shouted in a booming voice. "I want answers!"
There was a hushed silence among the lords, as they stared at one another. Suddenly, all at once, they began to shout and point fingers.
Varys quickly stepped forward. "My liege, I believe we have an answer. There are five who believe Faust to be one of the traitors."
King Robert, with much effort, stood from his throne. "I never trusted you Ironborn lot, anyways. I should have killed all the Krakens when I had the chance!" Faust was held down by the other lords, and King Robert raised his blade. With a swift motion, the blade went through Faust's neck.
Varys quickly stepped forward, to look through the possessions of the fallen lord. He opened up a letter, and read it. He then turned to Robert.
"I have bad news, my lord. It appears that Balon Greyjoy was loyal to our cause. He had no special powers, but he was true to the Iron Throne.
King Robert stood up, furious. "GET OUT OF MY SIGHT!" he bellowed at the remaining lords. The lords quickly left for the night, but as they did, two of them shared a knowing glance and a smile.
Faust, also known as Balon Greyjoy, Vanilla townie has been lynched.
N1 begins immediately, and will last for 48 hours. Each player is required to send a PM to Twistedarcher and Nkirbit checking in within 24 hours.
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When the lords returned to the throne room the next day, they found Robert Baratheon sitting on his throne. "My lords!" he boomed. "Welcome back!" The lords glanced apprehensively at one another, surprised to see Robert in such good spirits. The lords stood, waiting for the last member of their party to show up, but alas, he was nowhere to be found. "Well, let's get today's work started!" Robert said, beckoning for the lords to follow into the council and sending messengers off to the missing lords' chambers.
A few minutes later, Varys slipped into the room unnoticed. He glided over to Robert, whispering in his ear. Robert's, hearing the counsel of his advisor, quickly stood up. "WHAT DO YOU MEAN, NED STARK IS DEAD??!!"
"I am afraid it is true, my lords. Lord Stark has perished. He was found, poisoned, in his bedchambers. Not only have the usurpers been fighting us across the kingdom, but their evil ways have infiltrated King's Landing...I am afraid that no one is safe."
Only seven lords remained. They knew that finding out the identity of the usurpers was of the utmost importance, yet they were still no closer to uncovering the identity of their enemies. Robert sunk into his chair, reaching for a goblet of wine. The task was left to the lords to kill the usurpers.
Robz888, also know as Ned Stark, the Vanilla Townie, has been killed.
Day 2 Begins!
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Vote Count 2.0:
Not Voting (7): WalrusmcFishSr, Teproc, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-mi, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
Thread Unlocked!!
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Teproc has replaced Chairs.
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Good job, Robz. Looks like scum bought it.
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Yay d2.
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Hi Teproc, thanks for filling in!
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Good job, Robz. Looks like scum bought it.
Bought what? Did I miss a breadcrumb?
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Hey everyone!
New player here, been reading up on old games and signed up for yuma's Pick Your Poison game. This happened to be the most current game going on so I also followed a bit, so when chairs decided to /out I figured I'd get my start here ! However there were only 8 hours left before the deadline when I PMed the mods, and they felt it wasn't enough for me to get into it (which I agreed with FWIW).
So here I am ! I've been rereading the thread carefully, and have a few thoughts. Had a hunch that Robz was a PR, which I guess was the point of his play d1. Worked on me as well as scum, so great.
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Good job, Robz. Looks like scum bought it.
Bought what? Did I miss a breadcrumb?
Voltaire what is your reaction to learning Robz is town? You are acting like you thought so all along, when you were downright dogged in your voting for him almost all of Day 1.
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Hey everyone... I need to reread as I haven't given this game much thought (as Toy Story started up and I was pretty despondent when faust flipped town.
So we are at 7 alive, 2 scum...
I guess I maintain a scum read on EFHW to some extent but am not completely sure about that. Voltaire as well... I fully expect him to come in here and vote for me raging that I am still alive and had a town read on Robz for town credit... But I'll leave it to him to make the pseudocase on me.
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Good job, Robz. Looks like scum bought it.
Didn't notice this before. Vote: voltaire. Saying that he noticed a breadcrumb to make it look like he isn't scum because scum would never admit to seeing a breadcrumb from the very person that was just killed.
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We also need to discuss if we really think that chairs/teproc is town. It seems like most players gave chairs a town read toward the end of the day--I think a lot of that might have been sympathy reads (I know I felt bad that he was /outing and it is hard to lynch someone you feel bad for, that is just psychological behavior)
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I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
This was the quote that stuck out most in my mind from the conclusion of D1. I'll go back and reread more carefully later after work, but I'm gonna vote: Voltaire initially as well.
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Vote Count 2.1:
Voltaire (2): Yuma, Walrus
Not Voting (5): Teproc, Voltaire, EFHW, Mail-mi, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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Oh... and eevee... what was up with not being around at all! I know you were on VLA, but then you said you were back and catching up and that never happened.
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i know, I'm sorry. I was reading the thread to catch up, got interrupted before I could finish and when I got back it was already past deadline.
I wouldn't have supported the faust-lynch, but what's done is done. I maintain my suspicion on walrus, don't really see why that wagon evaporated. I'd give chairs/teproc a decent amount of town cred, the way chairs wanted to leave didn't see scum-frustrated at all. If someone cared enough to fake it that well, they wouldnt out. Null on yuma, slight scum
for Voltaire for lacking in great ideas I agree with, efhw has always been hard to read for me, mailmi looks scummy for.. really not doing that much?
anyways I'm back and won't fall behind again!
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Good job, Robz. Looks like scum bought it.
Bought what? Did I miss a breadcrumb?
Robz's whole "I refuse to claim" now looks to me like a gambit to draw the nightkill as a VT. At least, that's really the only reason I can think of for why he'd have been the nightkill. He was found fairly scummy collectively.
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Good job, Robz. Looks like scum bought it.
Bought what? Did I miss a breadcrumb?
Voltaire what is your reaction to learning Robz is town? You are acting like you thought so all along, when you were downright dogged in your voting for him almost all of Day 1.
No, I'm acting like I saw his flip and went "Huh! Why would that...ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
I deserve no credit, I was very wrong on Robz.
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I want to assume that chairs/chairs jr. is town for now, simply because I don't want to believe chairs would maliciously pull such a stunt. It seemed genuine enough, and he even /outed from other games right around the same time. If this belief turns out to be incorrect, I will lose much faith in humanity and chairs' humanity in particular, and then I will become a bitter, soulless husk of a man.
Maybe I'm just being naive though. No doubt there is precedent for such shenanigans on this forum.
Eevee, I'm glad you're back. Do you want to answer the question about your suspicion of me that I've asked twice already? What was it about my behavior, other than the mail-mi thing, that you found particularly suspicious D1? I wouldn't want to think you're dodging the question.
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Yuma being alive isn't terribly scummy if scum thought that Robz was a PR, btw.
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I want to assume that chairs/chairs jr. is town for now, simply because I don't want to believe chairs would maliciously pull such a stunt. It seemed genuine enough, and he even /outed from other games right around the same time. If this belief turns out to be incorrect, I will lose much faith in humanity and chairs' humanity in particular, and then I will become a bitter, soulless husk of a man.
I get what you are saying, but there is a possibility that chairs (if he is scum) /outing wasn't a stunt to avoid a lynch, it was just him /outing. In my opinion, chairs was more frustrated with not being able to post as much or as well as he would have liked to because of his internet problem. That is a frustration that would exist as town or mafia.
So if he was scum and pulled "a stunt" I don't hold it against him because I don't consider it a stunt... I consider it a reaction to a frustrating situation.
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Ok, so before I read through the thread again, I looked at all the wagons that happened day 1 (6 of them reached L-1, if you include Robz twice), and I noticed two players standing out, having voted on 4 of the 6, including the final one, which hit confirmed town.
- chairs/Teproc : obviously can't say much on that.
- mail-mi
Now obviously this isn't damning in and of itself. mail-mi was the hammer on faust, but I think I would have been ready to hammer as well given faust's last post and the deadline looming. Still, it definitely made we pay extra attention to his voting behavior.
Brushing aside his first three votes (two RVS, one against chairs/Teproc about theory talk), here is his record :
A reads post cuz I'm on a bus and heck why not.
[...]
3. Robz888--vote: robz has like 1 post.
You seem so... different. Less jokey, which I associate with your town self. Maybe it's because it's your first time being scum? Yeah, still fine with wagon. In fact, vote: walrus
[...]
Faust... I could go for Faust. Better than Robz, IMO. Vote: Faust.
Voltaire comes out of that exchange much scummier than Yuma, and Faust probably isn't going through, so vote: Voltaire.
However, I am also okay with keeping on volt. So I'll stay there, but intent to hammer if someone else switches.
Why not switch now and then let someone else hammer?
Cuz I wanna hammer! vote: faust
Okay, so let's see how these hold up :
#88 : First vote on the first Robz wagon. Seems fair, Robz had been completely absent by that point.
#157 : Third vote on the Walrus wagon. This one seems fair as well. He has a read on Walrus that he is behaving differently, so it definitely makes sense to jump on the wagon here.
#306 : Second vote on faust at the time, just after Walrus put Robz to L-1 again. In this post, he says that Walrus is behaving more normally (the Joker gif I think) and he has a null read on Robz. This one is a little more problematic because there's just no reasoning for the vote. Granted, yuma had made his case against faust a couple posts ago, but still, mail-mi doesn't look great here.
#423: Third vote on the Voltaire wagon. No reasoning again, except that Voltaire "looks scummy" in his exchange with yuma.
Here's the reason he gives when pressed :
Voltaire comes out of that exchange much scummier than Yuma, and Faust probably isn't going through, so vote: Voltaire.
Why. Please give a reason.
Mostly a feeling from skimming it over. I am currently in school.
Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
Not exactly an air-tight case.
#498 : Hammer on faust. Again, no particular reasoning, which can be attributed to the deadline looming and the fact that Walrus had also expressed his willingness to hammer.
Now I mentioned that mail-mi was on 4 of the 6 wagons. Well actually, he seemed pretty close to hammer chairs/Teproc when he was at L-1 here :
Ummm... Intent to hammer, I guess?
In fact, had yuma not specifically asked for people not to hammer without announcing it first, I might very well not have been in this game, and what kind of world would that have been ? ;)
So mail-mi was in on ALL the wagons Day 1. You could argue that he wasn't on the second Robz wagon, but it did not last very long, and it seemed like town was not ready to lynch Robz, since he had survived L-1 effortlessly earlier.
Not only that, but, aside from the first two votes quoted here, here is a list of wagons mail-mi is ready to join at #349 (during the chairs/Teproc wagon) :
Ya know what, other than the Robz wagon a little bit, I'm pretty much good with all the wagons right now. Order of preference;
Faust
Chairs
Walrus
(Robz)
Notice that Voltaire isn't on there, yet mail-mi eagerly joined in against him at #423.
The fact that he hammered a VT wouldn't be a big deal normally, given the circumstances discussed above. However, this looks to me like a textbook exemple of scum pretty efficiently lurking and getting on anything that even resembles a wagon, and finally hammering when it's obvious that it can't be used against him.
vote: mail-mi
P.S : Sorry for the huge wall of text, I tried to make it as concise as possible by shortening a few quotes, but that clearly wasn't enough.
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As far as my status goes, I definitely don't think I should be considered confirmed town or anything. I wouldn't necessarily read too much into chairs self-voting, it seemed like he was frustrated by the game and his inability to fully participate in it more than anything else.
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vote: mail-mi
P.S : Sorry for the huge wall of text, I tried to make it as concise as possible by shortening a few quotes, but that clearly wasn't enough.
This is good solid work, and the size of it is fine, very readable.
However, my only issue with it is that it is mail-mi you are talking about. You very well could be right about him. But everything you listed in the post above is stuff that I think we generally see from mail-mi when he is town. You said you had only read up to MXVI... mail-mi hadn't joined the community at that point, but I think others would agree with me that what we are seeing from mail-mi, while perhaps red flags from another player are just blank flags for mail-mi.
This doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't lynch him, but I for one am generally more cautious about lynching mail-mi for perceived scummy play because of so many mislynches we have had of him in the past. Combine that with that when we have found mail-mi to be scum there were other signs that were much more glaring... although mail-mi has consistently improved his scum game in the last few games.
So I am keeping mail-mi in the back of my mind, but right now, until I see something more convincing I don't think I will be going for a mail-mi lynch because ultimately it becomes a tossup...
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6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 2 Mafia Goons - claiming here is bad. We get no information aside from the JK becoming an IC.
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker - if this is the situation we would only want the cop to claim, as the roleblocker would still be alive we wouldn't be able to do follow the cop, but we would potentially get 2 confirmed townies (Cop and who he investigated as long as that player wasn't Robz). We do not want the Doc to claim here at all. Doing so is bad because if we can get the roleblocker lynched we can then do follow the cop.
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons - Here we would get 2 ICs (the BP--the BP shouldn't claim if they used their bulletproof or not and the Tracker) From the tracker we get half a result. If the person they tracked did nothing then it means they are less likely to be mafia, but not guaranteed...
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker - Here we get two ICs... and a semi-result as the player jailkept is less likely to be mafia.
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 2 Mafia Goons - here we could potentially get two ICs as long as the Cop didn't investigate Robz. There is no doc to help out here so the cop would die that night, but we would reduce our lynch pool by two today and by one tomorrow.
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons - Again doc shouldn't claim, nor should the tracker claim a result on following someone who targeted anyone that wasn't robz--cause that player is the doc.
I think sometimes we are too hesitant about claiming. We could wait until tomorrow to claim, that is generally considered the safer bet. But if we mislynch tonight and mafia gets a lynch then we are in lylo and a claim in that situation can be counter claimed by mafia for a 50% chance of winning and the game basically becomes a tossup... But claims today aren't likely to be counter claimed because a counter claim today results in an auto lynch tomorrow. So I think I like claiming today over claiming tomorrow when a counterclaim can't be accomplished because of mylo... of course this is assuming the worst in that we won't get a correct lynch or a NK save during the night...
so maybe we should think about claiming today?
I think the best setup for claiming day2 is 1. the BP townie and the Tracker. 2. Followed by Cop/Doctor. 3. Followed by BP townie and Jailkeeper. 4. Followed by 1 Cop. 5. Followed by Doc/Tracker Followed by 6. 1 jailkeeper.
Of course anyone with a PR doesn't know which of the two setups are out there. As a result I think if we decide we should claim the BP townie or Cop should claim (note that there can't be both a BP townie or a Cop). I think jailkeeper should be the last to claim if claiming at all. I don't think the jailkeeper should claim if a BP townie doesn't claim first...
Again this is all just me talking to myself... I originally posted this as a PM to myself but thought I would share it so we can at least mull it over and see what other people think.
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Didn't get the top of the post above from my PM... should say "here are some musings I am going through in regard to PRs and claiming. At this point I am not necessarily advocating anything, but think we should at least consider it and try and find what is most optimal for us to do at this point. There are six possible setups..."
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I definitely think claiming is probably the right move. I want to double-check what yuma said - nobody do anything quite yet. (I probably won't have time to check thoroughly until tomorrow)
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I definitely think claiming is probably the right move. I want to double-check what yuma said - nobody do anything quite yet. (I probably won't have time to check thoroughly until tomorrow)
Yes we should give this at least a day or so of thought, so no one jump into claiming or anything... let's give this the due diligence that it deserves. I still want to think about it more as well...
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Well, I have skimmed all the way through XVI, but the last one I thoroughly read was XII (and some parts of XI). You're right that mail-mi hasn't come up in any of the games I've read, so I don't have any kind of meta info on him.
If this is usually how he plays... well I don't like it, for one. It reminds me of Morgrim in the games I have read, where everyone basically had to act as if L-2 = L-1 because Morgrim could hammer at any moment, but nobody dared lynch him because he always seemed to flip town (in fact I don't think I've seen scum Morgrim yet).
I still need an answer from mail-mi on this, especiallyabout not including Voltaire in his list of possible lynches, and on the lack of reasoning behind a lot of his votes. Shrugging it off seems anti-town to me, even if that's his meta. Does he also vote for every bandwagon on day 2 usually ? Because that could become dangerous if we get into mylo or lylo territory. In any case, mail-mi is going to need a better defense than this to make me move my vote at this point.
Re: claiming :
First off, isn't the One-Shot Bulletproof a passive ability ? In which case the OSB has definitely not "used" it since he wasn't targeted last night. Mybae I'm misunderstanding it, but it seems like quite a weak role if you have to know which night to use it.
I don't like claiming, but that's probably because I enjoy the social aspect of the game much more than the roles.
You make a good case for it (in certain setups), but I definitely want to hear about this from everyone because I don't feel confident at all in determining wether claiming is a good option or not.
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Well, I rarely have good reads D1, and I'm a student, so if I see a good case I'm gonna vote and not do work cuz time constraints and I'm not gonna do work to come up with the same thing.
Oh, and volt wasn't on my list cuz he was at only 0 or maybe one vote then.
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Haha see--newcomers think mail-mi is suspicious! Which may be because we're unfamiliar with his playstyle. OR MAYBE we have a fresh set of eyes that can peer through the meta and see true intentions, like a perceptive dog or something.
I'm not so sure about claiming...my knee-jerk reaction is no, but maybe that's just because that seems to be the f.ds mores. Let me at least play devil's advocate for a second:
--If a PR gets run up to L-1, couldn't he claim at that point? And yes yes, I know, derphammers, deadlines, etc., but still.
--If a BP claims, that basically invalidates his power, as now he will no longer be targeted.
--Wouldn't a Tracker or Cop simply come forward if they felt they had a result they felt they should share?
--Not as sure about Doctor or JK. They would be more likely to be shot immediately. But with another PR, they'd want to know about it I guess. So maybe that's a point for claiming.
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The purpose of claiming is not so much their results/power, it's to make them Named Townies and POE scum. That's the spirit behind it. And like yuma points out, we could end up in lylo tomorrow where scum could highly consider fakeclaiming or counterclaiming a PR because it could win them the game, so the time to claim is likely now.*
*again, I want to think through all the versions of this setup and check yuma's suggest claiming order. I have no reason to think he's trying to mislead us, I just want to make sure we're not missing anything
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I'd be behind a BP townie claiming, and see an argument for the cop claiming (assuming they didn't investigate Robz). I don't like a roleblocker having information about other PR's, so I'm leaning against other claims at the moment. Will think about it some more.
PPE Walrus: I think having a bulletproof IC is pretty nice - remember faust wanted that? Especially Day 2 when we have lots of interactions to look at. I think teproc is right about the power being passive, so we know they still have it. From the OP: "The 1-shot Bulletproof Townie's bulletproof ability is a static ability, and thus cannot be roleblocked."
Also, a cop with a "town" result wouldn't normally come forward yet.
Doctor or JK would get one more night of using their power before being nk'd, but could maybe be roleblocked so even that would be wasted.
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Well, I rarely have good reads D1, and I'm a student, so if I see a good case I'm gonna vote and not do work cuz time constraints and I'm not gonna do work to come up with the same thing.
Oh, and volt wasn't on my list cuz he was at only 0 or maybe one vote then.
...
That's exactly what I find suspicious about it. It means you had no particularly scummy read on Voltaire, yet were ready to jump on the wagon anyway. Being ready to lynch anyone for any reason is anti-town, plain and simple. I don't buy the excuse that you don't have time : it doesn't take time to just express an opinion in clear terms. Being vague about what you find scummy is exactly how scum wants to do it, because it can then switch to someone else more likely to be lynched for opposite reasons, and get away with it.
I need to do some reading on mail-mi's town and scum games I guess, but I'm puzzled as to how such blatantly scummy behavior seems to get a pass. Maybe because it's too obvious ? But that doesn't work if he knows that he can get away with it given his meta.
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@teproc. Are you suggesting mail-mi should be policy lynched? I ask b/c the thought has occurred to me as better for town, but seems harsh. When he does try to change his meta he gets tons of suspicion at this point.
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No I don't think policy lynching is good for town. We're trying to win this game, we shouldn't worry about future games. I mean, maybe on day 1 if you're getting close to the deadline but I'm certainly not suggesting this here.
I've gone back and looked at a few recent games (only looked at mail-mi's posts) and I can see where you guys are coming from. I don't think my case is as strong as I thought it was because of that, but I'm still not entirely convinced either. In Harry Potter mafia, he played differently as mafia, yes... and that got him lynched, as far as I can tell. He could be going back to his usual, less noticeable playstyle for that reason.
Also, I think his voting pattern wasn't as scummy in his town games : he did have a tendency to get on bandwagons, but not ALL of them, like he did here on day 1.
My vote stays here for now at the very least. I don't think Voltaire's reaction to Robz's (is that correct ?) flip is particularly scummy... partly because I had a similar one.
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I definitely agree with Teproc that mafia deserves was scrutiny for that INCREDIBLE scummy voting history. Like, yes, he has a meta of being erratic as town as well, but we can't just absolve him of all the responsibility for his votes because of that. Mailmi, was there any lynch yesterday you werent comfortable? If you are town, dont you realize how easy that makes it for scum - they have your vote on all their mislynch wagons, almost by default.
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I definitely agree with Teproc that mafia deserves was scrutiny for that INCREDIBLE scummy voting history. Like, yes, he has a meta of being erratic as town as well, but we can't just absolve him of all the responsibility for his votes because of that. Mailmi, was there any lynch yesterday you werent comfortable? If you are town, dont you realize how easy that makes it for scum - they have your vote on all their mislynch wagons, almost by default.
Robz.
vote: Eevee how did you know they were all mislynches?
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Eevee is clearly talking about generic mislynches, mail-mi. Also, there were >2 wagons yesterday, so by definition at least one was a mislynch.
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Eevee is clearly talking about generic mislynches, mail-mi. Also, there were >2 wagons yesterday, so by definition at least one was a mislynch.
Okay, yeah, I've reread his post about 5 times now, and unvote. it was worded confusingly.
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Looking at claims, one that seems pretty good for us is if there's a Tracker.
- it doesn't give too much info to Mafia, since they don't know if the other PR is a OSBPT or a Doctor. Their NK becomes kinda difficult, because they shouldn't be shooting the Tracker if there's a Doctor, but then they might hit an OSBPT. And even if they do, they can't be 100% sure that the kill wasn't prevented by a crazy risky Doctor. So basically we get an IC that might very well survive the night.
- it lets us know that there's no Roleblocker, which is always something.
- Tracker is not good for Mafia to fakeclaim I think. It forces Jailkeeper/Cop/Tracker to counterclaim, but then they get lynched the next day at the very least.
Curious to know what people think about this.
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I'm working on my re-read/claiming catch-up right now, but saw this post. Yes, I agree a tracker claim is probably good. They should know if they have caught scum if they saw someone target Robz last night, as it can't be the doctor since Robz died. In this situation, the tracker should claim ASAP. If there is a BPT, we know they have not used their 1-shot because there was a kill last night. So the BPT basically would be guaranteed to live to the end of the game if they claim.
I am assuming we do not have a Tracker with a guilty result, though, since nobody has claimed Tracker yet. A tracker with a "no result" is something, but it could be misleading. I can't think of a reason not to share that result, though. The overall benefits of "follow the tracker," so to speak, are good like you said. Is there something I'm missing? If scum fakeclaims tracker when there is none the cop or jailkeeper know they're lying.
Also, it seems a BPT should claim no matter what, as they're guaranteed to live. So what are the risks here of scum fakeclaiming BPT and there isn't one - well, the cop and/or doctor know immediately that scum is lying. So I think the BP townie should claim.
I still have to work through the other scenarios.
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I don't think the BPT should claim in the Tracker scenario, because of the situation I described above. If the BPT claims, Mafia just shoots the Tracker because they know there's no Doctor, and the BPT basically becomes a VT. Confirmed town, sure, but we go into day 3 with no PR.
I don't think the Tracker should say if he has no result either for a similar reason. If he gets no result on a VT, Mafia can eliminate the tracked VT from their pool of possible Doctors.
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I don't think the BPT should claim in the Tracker scenario, because of the situation I described above. If the BPT claims, Mafia just shoots the Tracker because they know there's no Doctor, and the BPT basically becomes a VT. Confirmed town, sure, but we go into day 3 with no PR.
I don't think the Tracker should say if he has no result either for a similar reason. If he gets no result on a VT, Mafia can eliminate the tracked VT from their pool of possible Doctors.
Super-good points. I agree with these situations. BPT can just claim if we run them up to L-1.
I think a soft deadline for today is going to be huge, in many of these situations.
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i should take the time to look at my uneasy feelings of walrus in more depth / try to formulate something I could even explain to others.
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Ok, so looking at the Jailkeeper scenarios, which are :
3 VTs, 1 JK & 1 BPT vs 1 Goon & 1 Roleblocker
4 VTS & 1 JK vs 2 Goons
If JK claims :
- Mafia now has perfect info about the setup. JK definitely gets NKed immediately if there's a Rolecop, but even if it's 2 Goons he probably dies. So he's only an IC for a turn.
- Mafia can't really fakeclaim JK themselves. Same situation as for Tracker actually, at best they're lynched Day 3.
- If there's an BPT, he could claim or not depending on your position on IC vs BPT (see: Day 1 theory talk). I think it's better not to claim, but I'm not sure at all.
Not as good as the Tracker situation, but might be worth it.
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I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
This was the quote that stuck out most in my mind from the conclusion of D1. I'll go back and reread more carefully later after work, but I'm gonna vote: Voltaire initially as well.
Reasons yet?
Also: vote: EFHW btw. Had mafia-esque certainty in my town-ness, bad gut feeling from early D1, tried to get me lynched for contradictions (which usually come from town). yuma's case on her from D1. Seems to test the waters for a mail-mi lynch (knowing it probably won't happen). I feel pretty good here. All pending claims of course.
I re-read the entire thread. Robz was just found too scummy collectively for killing him to make any sense. Scum was clearly PR-hunting. So any argument predicated on "but X lived to D2!" is bad today, I am now certain.
So. Claiming. Here's where I'm at.
A tracker with a guilty result (tracked someone who targeted Robz) and a cop with a guilty result should both claim immediately. Because that has not happened, I assume we do not have any PRs with guilty results. We do know that if there is a BPT, their 1-shot remains.
Let's look at each setup (please point out mistakes). "Lynch pool" is from the point of view of a VT:
A (Jailkeeper, BPT, roleblocker): jailkeeper can semi-clear someone. BPT can live forever if they get to L-1 and have to claim. Scum will know perfect setup info. They'll kill the JK, but everyone who is not the JK will have a lynch pool of 4 players instead of 6 today (the BPT will claim at L-1 if needed). If this is the setup, I could go either way on if the JK should claim off the bat.
1 (Jailkeeper): JK can semi-clear someone. JK has a chance to save themselves if they jail the mafia making the kill. Lynch pool drops from 6 to 5. I don't think the JK should claim here.
B (Cop): Since we're assuming they don't have a guilty result, they can clear a townie as long as they didn't investigate Robz (and they might have, lots of people found him scummy). If they investigated Robz, don't claim. If they investigated a townie, claim and clear the townie. For those who are not the cleared townie or cop, the lynch pool drops from 6 to 4. Cop should definitely claim (if not Robz).
2 (Cop, Doctor, Roleblocker): Same cop considerations as above. Doctor doesn't claim (unless they have to at L-1). Lynch pool drops to 4 or 3 (if the cop didn't investigate the Doctor) as long as no Robz investigation. Cop should definitely claim (if not Robz).
C (Doctor, Tracker): Tracker can claim and we can play "follow the tracker" until the doctor dies. Lynch pool is 4. Tracker should claim but not their result (unless on scum).
3 (BPT, Tracker): Tracker can claim. Lynch pool is 4. Tracker should claim but not their result (unless on scum).
So, since our PRs don't know if they have a counterpart...I guess I would support claims from Tracker / "Cop with cleared townie" the most, followed by wishy-washy on the JK, and the doctor should never claim*, nor should the BPT* or "Cop with a Robz"*. *unless at L-1 of course.
Obviously all PRs should claim at L-1. Mafia will be caught in a fakeclaim if they make one today, but not tomorrow.
A soft deadline is going to be huge for us today. Real deadline is November 13 at 8:00 p.m. Soft deadline at noon November 12? Or do we want more than 1.5 real-life days?
I could be missing stuff. Please point out errors.
Everyone should say if they are ok with the soft deadline in their next post, and if not, when they would prefer it to be.
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fine with that soft deadline.
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What about later Nov. 11? I'll at home then , and not at noon.
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What about later Nov. 11? I'll at home then , and not at noon.
New soft deadline 8 PM November 11. That's 48 hours before the real deadline.
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What about later Nov. 11? I'll at home then , and not at noon.
New soft deadline 8 PM November 11. That's 48 hours before the real deadline.
Me gusta.
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I'm unlikely to be awake that late, but I'll try (and be online a couple of hours before at least).
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I'm unlikely to be awake that late, but I'll try (and be online a couple of hours before at least).
That should be fine.
tl;dr my claiming post: cop/tracker with guilty result claim immediately. I think cop with a cleared living townie should claim. I think tracker should claim to be a tracker, but not their result. A jailkeeper should make their own decision. A cop who investigated Robz, a doctor, and the bulletproof townie should not claim.
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I find it hard to care about soft deadlines, because in my limited experience I've never seen them work. From what I've seen, people like to grandstand about it because it looks pro-town, but then it never actually accomplishes anything. Sure that sounds fine though, I'll believe it when I see it.
I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
This was the quote that stuck out most in my mind from the conclusion of D1. I'll go back and reread more carefully later after work, but I'm gonna vote: Voltaire initially as well.
Reasons yet?
Well, that quote was just sort of the icing on my Voltaire D1 suspicion cake. I thought you were acting questionably throughout D1, and particularly towards the end. So this was my jumping off point going into D2.
i should take the time to look at my uneasy feelings of walrus in more depth / try to formulate something I could even explain to others.
Yes you should...because mostly what I've seen from you this game is tunneling me and then disappearing for long periods of time. I have to say my suspicion of you is escalating.
Has anybody not yet commented about claiming? It would be good to hear from everybody. It looks like Eevee and mail-mi haven't said much about it, if I haven't missed anything.
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Has anybody not yet commented about claiming? It would be good to hear from everybody. It looks like Eevee and mail-mi haven't said much about it, if I haven't missed anything.
Leaning pro-claiming: yuma, Voltaire, teproc, EFHW
Leaning anti-claiming: Walrus
No stated opinion: Eevee, mail-mi
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What do you mean exactly by a soft deadline ? I think I saw something like that in Mafia XI, the idea is that you lynch however has the most votes on him/her at the time of the soft deadline, right ? So if they claim you have some time to start another wagon ?
I don't know if I'll be up at 8pm forum time, but I'll at least be there around 6pm, so I'm fine with the deadline.
As far as claiming goes : what Voltaire said looks right to me. I will add this though : there's no way for the Jailkeeper to know which setup we're in. Therefore, I suggest he doesn't claim, because if he's the only PR, it's not a great position. We can reconsider if an BPT has to claim at L-1 and we believe him.
And yeah, everyone should give their opinion about claiming before we do anything.
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What do you mean exactly by a soft deadline ? I think I saw something like that in Mafia XI, the idea is that you lynch however has the most votes on him/her at the time of the soft deadline, right ? So if they claim you have some time to start another wagon ?
That's exactly it. It's super-important here, because if possible we want to keep the BPT/doc/etc. hidden. However, there may be situations where they have to claim - if they're run up to L-1, or if mafia fakeclaims something disprovable based on their claim. Then we can find a new lynch with our reduced lynch pool. Or, if we have a counter-claim, we know we should lynch only one of the two, and we have time to decide which of the claims is more convincing.
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Has anybody not yet commented about claiming? It would be good to hear from everybody. It looks like Eevee and mail-mi haven't said much about it, if I haven't missed anything.
Leaning pro-claiming: yuma, Voltaire, teproc, EFHW
Leaning anti-claiming: Walrus
No stated opinion: Eevee, mail-mi
Leaning "depends on who you are (cop/tracker w/ a result, BP townie): mail-mi
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Leaning "depends on who you are (cop/tracker w/ a result, BP townie): mail-mi
Why do you think the BP Townie should claim?
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So, to sum up my positions on claiming :
- Tracker with a result should claim, but not share the result unless it's on scum
- Cop with a result should claim and share the result
- Jailkeeper should not claim
- BPT should not claim
- Doctor should not claim
- Mafia Goon/Roleblocker should DEFINITELY claim, get this over with :P
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Leaning "depends on who you are (cop/tracker w/ a result, BP townie): mail-mi
Why do you think the BP Townie should claim?
IC that won't be killed unless Scum is desperate.
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Leaning "depends on who you are (cop/tracker w/ a result, BP townie): mail-mi
Why do you think the BP Townie should claim?
IC that won't be killed unless Scum is desperate.
What about the fact that we know they have their 1-shot left, and they can just claim at L-1 if they have to?
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So, to sum up my positions on claiming :
- Tracker with a result should claim, but not share the result unless it's on scum
- Cop with a result should claim and share the result
- Jailkeeper should not claim
- BPT should not claim
- Doctor should not claim
- Mafia Goon/Roleblocker should DEFINITELY claim, get this over with :P
I think we're on exactly the same page, except you left out - Cop with a town result on Robz should not claim
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Yeah, and I guess it's the same for a Tracker who tracked Robz ? Not entirely sure about that one.
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Leaning "depends on who you are (cop/tracker w/ a result, BP townie): mail-mi
Why do you think the BP Townie should claim?
IC that won't be killed unless Scum is desperate.
What about the fact that we know they have their 1-shot left, and they can just claim at L-1 if they have to?
Because then we're scrambling for another lynch, because, let's face it, we're probably not going to hit the soft deadline (is hit the right word? Reach? Lynch by? IDK >_<)
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Yeah, and I guess it's the same for a Tracker who tracked Robz ? Not entirely sure about that one.
They should claim, just not their result, like all tracker situations where scum is not caught, I say.
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Because then we're scrambling for another lynch, because, let's face it, we're probably not going to hit the soft deadline (is hit the right word? Reach? Lynch by? IDK >_<)
That's why we set a soft deadline 48 hours before the real one.
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Because then we're scrambling for another lynch, because, let's face it, we're probably not going to hit the soft deadline (is hit the right word? Reach? Lynch by? IDK >_<)
That's why we set a soft deadline 48 hours before the real one.
My opinion is still that he should claim. If not today, then def. tomorrow.
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Because then we're scrambling for another lynch, because, let's face it, we're probably not going to hit the soft deadline (is hit the right word? Reach? Lynch by? IDK >_<)
That's why we set a soft deadline 48 hours before the real one.
I think we should set a soft soft deadline 48 hours before the soft deadline.
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Also: vote: EFHW btw. Had mafia-esque certainty in my town-ness, bad gut feeling from early D1, tried to get me lynched for contradictions (which usually come from town). yuma's case on her from D1. Seems to test the waters for a mail-mi lynch (knowing it probably won't happen). I feel pretty good here. All pending claims of course.
That's a good idea, to get ahead of it before I vote you. I don't know what you mean about mafia-esque certainty about your towniness, since I made a case on you and voted for you. yuma didn't make a case on me - he found similarities from another game and got town on the alert if that similarity might continue.
Why are you so reluctant for a BPT to claim? Teproc says tracker should claim b/c they might live the night, but the BPT definitely would, so where is the benefit to asking tracker to claim before BPT?
I also don't like the "wait until at L-1 to claim" plan for the BPT. That minimizes the time we have to make use of the BPT as IC. We would have to do that if the tracker claims, but I don't think the tracker should claim until we are sure there is no BPT. Then Teproc's plan might be worth considering.
vote: Voltaire
10 replies not read yet
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Because then we're scrambling for another lynch, because, let's face it, we're probably not going to hit the soft deadline (is hit the right word? Reach? Lynch by? IDK >_<)
That's why we set a soft deadline 48 hours before the real one.
My opinion is still that he should claim. If not today, then def. tomorrow.
If we mislynch today, and don't block a kill (probably pretty likely), scum can counter tomorrow for at least a 50% win chance (if we've been finding the BPT scummy, and one of the scum team towny, they'll almost certainly counter trusting they'll be believed) and that's game.
So, reads. Those too.
Strong town reads on:
Teproc - great strong start, is thinking like me, playing pro-town, plus when he was chairs all that stuff points towards town too
Small town reads on:
mail-mi - behaving like normal scummy mail-mi. If he's scum we'll POE him at some point, or he'll have to start playing and show his true colors.
Null reads on:
yuma - still some concerning stuff D1, though he did propose claiming first. Scum yuma did that for towncred in WWTWDP and it came back to bite him. I'd think scum!yuma would have learned his lesson that it's not worth it, and just casually support claiming after someone else floats it
Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.
Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.
Strong scum read on:
EFHW - see the post where I vote her for why.
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A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.
I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.
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Because then we're scrambling for another lynch, because, let's face it, we're probably not going to hit the soft deadline (is hit the right word? Reach? Lynch by? IDK >_<)
That's why we set a soft deadline 48 hours before the real one.
I think we should set a soft soft deadline 48 hours before the soft deadline.
You're kidding, but...
Teproc the soft deadline means we try to reach a consensus early, so that if there are claiming surprises there is still time to find an alternate lynch.
Monday 8 pm is ok for me. I will be checking in throughout the day, and then can be present from about 7:30 on, depending how things go.
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Also: vote: EFHW btw. Had mafia-esque certainty in my town-ness, bad gut feeling from early D1, tried to get me lynched for contradictions (which usually come from town). yuma's case on her from D1. Seems to test the waters for a mail-mi lynch (knowing it probably won't happen). I feel pretty good here. All pending claims of course.
That's a good idea, to get ahead of it before I vote you. I don't know what you mean about mafia-esque certainty about your towniness, since I made a case on you and voted for you. yuma didn't make a case on me - he found similarities from another game and got town on the alert if that similarity might continue.
Why are you so reluctant for a BPT to claim? Teproc says tracker should claim b/c they might live the night, but the BPT definitely would, so where is the benefit to asking tracker to claim before BPT?
I also don't like the "wait until at L-1 to claim" plan for the BPT. That minimizes the time we have to make use of the BPT as IC. We would have to do that if the tracker claims, but I don't think the tracker should claim until we are sure there is no BPT. Then Teproc's plan might be worth considering.
vote: Voltaire
10 replies not read yet
The difference is because the BPT can't die. That is huge huge huge huge huge. If you're town, I think you need to understand that this is a difference of opinion, because I see where you are coming from but you should see where I am coming from - see all my harping about why the soft deadline matters.
But of course I think you're scum.
Also, if there is a tracker we want scum to think there might be a doctor (we also want there to be a doctor!). If the BPT claims, then the tracker is a goner if they claim. Maybe actually in that setup that makes more sense...but...
In specific setups it can make sense to do these claims in different orders, but not when our PRs can't know what other PRs are (or are not!) out there. I still think the Voltaire/Teproc consensus makes the most sense.
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Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.
Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.
Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?
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I also don't like the "wait until at L-1 to claim" plan for the BPT. That minimizes the time we have to make use of the BPT as IC. We would have to do that if the tracker claims, but I don't think the tracker should claim until we are sure there is no BPT. Then Teproc's plan might be worth considering.
Tracker claiming is better than BPT claiming because it doesn't give as much info to mafia.
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Yeah, and also I'm not convinced BPT claiming is good in general because claiming prevents any chance Mafia tries to NK him.
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Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.
Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.
Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?
The only thing I remember about Eevee is that he made a case on you. At first I thought it was bunk, then I thought it was awesome, then I wasn't sure, right now I think it's awesome again.
And Eevee has made this case very clear:
I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
I don't remember walrus asking for town's permission on his suspicions in modern community (where he was town), can anyone confirm? I think his tone here is very different. Wanting to please the crowd and have someone validate your "suspicions" before committing to them is a pretty well working scum tell, especially for newer scum. I even remember making posts like that as scum in my first game - I remember because someone called me out on it, I think it was robz.
I'm on phone, so I just snipped the parts I was referring to in his earlier post.
A lot of suspicion flying in sentences that end in question marks!
In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.
Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam?
[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.
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A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.
I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.
Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but how does the tracker claiming increase the probability of a no-kill? If we have a tracker, then we have a chance at a no-kill even without claiming, b/c we definitely have either a doctor or a BPT. If we have a BPT, there might be two chances of a no-kill b/c there may also be a jk.
-- If trying to get a no-kill is our priority, then no one should claim.
-- If getting an IC is more important, then BPT should claim, and lacking that the tracker could consider claiming. I think I'd rather have the IC.
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A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.
I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.
Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but how does the tracker claiming increase the probability of a no-kill? If we have a tracker, then we have a chance at a no-kill even without claiming, b/c we definitely have either a doctor or a BPT. If we have a BPT, there might be two chances of a no-kill b/c there may also be a jk.
-- If trying to get a no-kill is our priority, then no one should claim.
-- If getting an IC is more important, then BPT should claim, and lacking that the tracker could consider claiming. I think I'd rather have the IC.
I also think an IC is better than a possible no kill.
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If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:
1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night
1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.
Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.
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vote: Voltaire
This is L-1, right ? Someone unvote, please, at least until we get the claim situation right. I'm not sure Voltaire is town at all (had a null read on him going into day 2, his points about the claim question improved that to a slight town read), but
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Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.
Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.
Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?
It was the noob scum argument.
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crap, sorry. Unvote Not used to small games anymore!
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If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:
1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night
1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.
Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.
Mafia knowing the setup vs. having an IC. I think it's worth it.
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If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:
1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night
1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.
Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.
They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?
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A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.
I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.
Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but how does the tracker claiming increase the probability of a no-kill? If we have a tracker, then we have a chance at a no-kill even without claiming, b/c we definitely have either a doctor or a BPT. If we have a BPT, there might be two chances of a no-kill b/c there may also be a jk.
-- If trying to get a no-kill is our priority, then no one should claim.
-- If getting an IC is more important, then BPT should claim, and lacking that the tracker could consider claiming. I think I'd rather have the IC.
In those scenarios the tracker is our IC. If there's no tracker, the JK should stay hidden - so now I see your point. Would we want people to claim tracker/not tracker?
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If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:
1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night
1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.
Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.
They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?
What's their other option?
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vote: Voltaire
This is L-1, right ? Someone unvote, please, at least until we get the claim situation right. I'm not sure Voltaire is town at all (had a null read on him going into day 2, his points about the claim question improved that to a slight town read), but
More town points to Teproc for catching this.
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Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.
Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.
Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?
The only thing I remember about Eevee is that he made a case on you. At first I thought it was bunk, then I thought it was awesome, then I wasn't sure, right now I think it's awesome again.
And Eevee has made this case very clear:
I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.
vote: walrus
I don't remember walrus asking for town's permission on his suspicions in modern community (where he was town), can anyone confirm? I think his tone here is very different. Wanting to please the crowd and have someone validate your "suspicions" before committing to them is a pretty well working scum tell, especially for newer scum. I even remember making posts like that as scum in my first game - I remember because someone called me out on it, I think it was robz.
I'm on phone, so I just snipped the parts I was referring to in his earlier post.
A lot of suspicion flying in sentences that end in question marks!
In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.
Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam?
[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.
OK, so yeah that's the case. And then I've asked numerous times what specifically he means by "asking permission" or "validation". It was about that one mail-mi thing? Really, is that all? Do you have any other examples, since he hasn't provided any? I don't call this case "very clear" at all. Less so that it's so stale by now.
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If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:
1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night
1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.
Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.
They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?
What's their other option?
?
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Ok, so there are two possible scenarios with a BPT in play :
VT x3, BPT, Tracker, Goon x2
VT x3, BPT, JK, Goon, Roleblocker.
So if BPT claims, Mafia gets perfect information.
If there's a Tracker, I'd rather have him claiming, because
- Mafia still doesn't have perfect information
- Tracker can have semi-useful information this day, and another shot at info the next day.
- This puts mafia in an awkward situation. They want to get rid of the tracker, but there's a 50% chance of him being protected by a doctor. I think they will probably try to get the Doctor. In this process, they migt hit the BPT, giving us a no-kill night
- If the BPT claims, they just shoot the Tracker
The JK scenario is different but the BPT does not know which one we are in, and should therefore not claim.
PPE : 9 replies
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If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:
1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night
1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.
Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.
They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?
What's their other option?
?
To dealing with a BPT.
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If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:
1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night
1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.
Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.
They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?
What's their other option?
I'm just saying that mafia may not want the BPT to claim, b/c then we have BP IC instead, and that is not desirable for them. The downside for town is that the chances of a successful nk do go up. I'm going to see if I can quantify this for us somehow.
5 replies not read
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Ok, so there are two possible scenarios with a BPT in play :
VT x3, BPT, Tracker, Goon x2
VT x3, BPT, JK, Goon, Roleblocker.
So if BPT claims, Mafia gets perfect information.
If there's a Tracker, I'd rather have him claiming, because
- Mafia still doesn't have perfect information
- Tracker can have semi-useful information this day, and another shot at info the next day.
- This puts mafia in an awkward situation. They want to get rid of the tracker, but there's a 50% chance of him being protected by a doctor. I think they will probably try to get the Doctor. In this process, they migt hit the BPT, giving us a no-kill night
- If the BPT claims, they just shoot the Tracker
The JK scenario is different but the BPT does not know which one we are in, and should therefore not claim.
PPE : 9 replies
This.
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ok, I'm seeing what you mean about the perfect information. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is, though. If they know there is a jk, they still don't know who that is. If they know there is a tracker they still have to try to shoot someone, risking detection. Knowing who the BPT is also reduces the people the tracker/jk might target, increasing their chances of a successful night action.
I hate not being able to trust anyone, so I think an IC is very good for town. And we have seen a lot from most of us, so unless the IC is Eevee or mail-mi, there would be a lot to look at scum-hunting-wise.
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By the way, since it seems relevant, here's a votecount :
Voltaire (2) : yuma, Walrus
mail-mi (1) : Teproc
EFHW (1) : Voltaire
Not voting (3) : EFHW, mail-mi, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
Soft deadline: November 11 at 8:00 p.m.
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Ok, so there are two possible scenarios with a BPT in play :
VT x3, BPT, Tracker, Goon x2
VT x3, BPT, JK, Goon, Roleblocker.
So if BPT claims, Mafia gets perfect information.
If there's a Tracker, I'd rather have him claiming, because
- Mafia still doesn't have perfect information
- Tracker can have semi-useful information this day, and another shot at info the next day.
- This puts mafia in an awkward situation. They want to get rid of the tracker, but there's a 50% chance of him being protected by a doctor. I think they will probably try to get the Doctor. In this process, they migt hit the BPT, giving us a no-kill night
- If the BPT claims, they just shoot the Tracker
The JK scenario is different but the BPT does not know which one we are in, and should therefore not claim.
PPE : 9 replies
You are taking the tracker claiming as assumed when you say the BPT should not claim. I agree if the tracker claims, the BPT should not.
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If they know there is a tracker they still have to try to shoot someone, risking detection. Knowing who the BPT is also reduces the people the tracker/jk might target, increasing their chances of a successful night action.
This makes some sense in the JK scenario (though I still disagree with it), but not in the Tracker scenario, because we want the Tracker to claim. If the BPT claims in a Tracker scenario, the Tracker gets NKed and we get not good info from him (assuming he didn't catch scum N1).
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Ok, so you get what I'm saying. Good.
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Vote Count 2.2:
Voltaire (2): Yuma, Walrus
Mail-mi (1): Teproc
EFHW (1): Voltaire
Not Voting (3): Eevee, mail-mi, EFHW
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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ok, I'm seeing what you mean about the perfect information. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is, though. If they know there is a jk, they still don't know who that is. If they know there is a tracker they still have to try to shoot someone, risking detection. Knowing who the BPT is also reduces the people the tracker/jk might target, increasing their chances of a successful night action.
Not if the BPT has claimed - they'll just shoot the tracker! The tracker can't speak from beyond the grave.
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You are taking the tracker claiming as assumed when you say the BPT should not claim. I agree if the tracker claims, the BPT should not.
Missed this. OK then.
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So I guess our disagreement is that you don't think Tracker should claim, EFHW. That doesn't make much sense considering you seem to really want an IC ? Tracker claiming is basically the same as BPT claiming (an IC that can't get killed because there might be a doctor - you might think Mafia will target him still, I don't), with the upside of less info for Mafia, and still chances of no kill.
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So I guess our disagreement is that you don't think Tracker should claim, EFHW. That doesn't make much sense considering you seem to really want an IC ? Tracker claiming is basically the same as BPT claiming (an IC that can't get killed because there might be a doctor - you might think Mafia will target him still, I don't), with the upside of less info for Mafia, and still chances of no kill.
Yep, this again. Teproc makes all the sense.
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catching up. I'll post as I see stuff to comment on
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The purpose of claiming is not so much their results/power, it's to make them Named Townies and POE scum. That's the spirit behind it. And like yuma points out, we could end up in lylo tomorrow where scum could highly consider fakeclaiming or counterclaiming a PR because it could win them the game, so the time to claim is likely now.*
*again, I want to think through all the versions of this setup and check yuma's suggest claiming order. I have no reason to think he's trying to mislead us, I just want to make sure we're not missing anything
Yes like I said the main reason I like the BP townie claiming now is that it eliminates that potential lylo counterclaim issue...
Here is how I see it, I am approaching this from a point of view that we have a mislynch and a NK tonight (worst case scenario). If the BP claims he/she won't be killed, regardless of whether or not the other PR claims if there is one...
This leaves: 2 Mafia Goons, 1 VT 1 VT/PR (depending on who mafia kills), 1 BPTownie. The BP townie won't be killed this means from a neutral point of view we have a 50% chance of getting the correct lynch: 2 goons vs 1 VT, 1 VT/PR.
Contast this to what teproc says later on (I have received e-mails throughout the day, so I know he says this at some point) that if the BP townie stays hidden they have a chance of absorbing a night kill.... if we mislynch that puts us tonight at 2 Mafia goons, 1 BPT, 2 VT, 1VT/PR. so 1/4 chance.
So I think the 1/4 chance of the BP absorbing the kill is less than the 1/2 chance of us getting a correct lynch tomorrow....
....
Although i just realized I am dumb. News flash! This whole issue is based off me not wanting to have to worry about figuring out between counterclaims tomorrow and having to decide between two players... which is essentially a 50% chance... so the same as if the BP claimed today. Duh...
So yeah, the BP should stay hidden and try to make the best use of that 1/4 chance.
sorry for the long post explaining what everyone probably already knew but that I needed to work out for myself.
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I don't think Voltaire's reaction to Robz's (is that correct ?) flip is particularly scummy... partly because I had a similar one.
My vote at least isn't based off Voltaire's reactions to Robz's flip. It is much more fully based on my observations of him from yesterday which I still believe to be valid and scummy. I'll repost it and reclarify some points when I get some time, but (I am not sure if you know this, but this is my busy on week at work and I've got a newborn at home, so time isn't at its highest atm.)
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I find it hard to care about soft deadlines, because in my limited experience I've never seen them work. From what I've seen, people like to grandstand about it because it looks pro-town, but then it never actually accomplishes anything. Sure that sounds fine though, I'll believe it when I see it.
Likewise.
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vote: Voltaire
This is L-1, right ? Someone unvote, please, at least until we get the claim situation right. I'm not sure Voltaire is town at all (had a null read on him going into day 2, his points about the claim question improved that to a slight town read), but
More town points to Teproc for catching this.
This is a very silly reason to give town points for... We should all be aware of where we are voting... being aware of something and stating the obvious isn't townie...
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OK, so yeah that's the case. And then I've asked numerous times what specifically he means by "asking permission" or "validation". It was about that one mail-mi thing? Really, is that all? Do you have any other examples, since he hasn't provided any? I don't call this case "very clear" at all. Less so that it's so stale by now.
^In reference to eevee's case on walrus. I competely agree. It is stale now, it was crappy then. I find it bizarre that voltaire would call this case "strong."
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I've been doing a reread on EFHW, to see what a case against her would look like, and I don't see much here, honestly. She mostly seems towny to me, sometimes misguided, sometimes not. I remember having a slight scum read on her but I'm leaning slight town now.
There's one thing that stood out to me though, and that's the fact that she entirely flipped her position on BPT claiming. When faust brought it up at he very beginning of the game, she was anti-claiming, now she's pro. That's the only really scummy thing I've seen, and even then it's not necessarily that scummy.
So yuma, since you're here, what's your take on claims now (aside from the BPT thing, about which we apparently agree) ?
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So yuma, since you're here, what's your take on claims now (aside from the BPT thing, about which we apparently agree) ?
I think, (this is kinda tentative) that the Cop should claim with any type of result as long as it isn't on Robz.
I know the doc and jk should stay silent
I think the BPT should stay silent.
I am not sure about the tracker. Obviously if they have a good result otherwise probably not. I guess having them as an IC is nice, especially as mafia wouldn't know if there is a doc or not... so they might not want to shoot that player (meaning that if the tracker claims the BPTownie should not claim as that gives away that there isn't a doctor).
So yeah, I think a cop should claim and the tracker should claim. Everyone else shouldn't is where I am at right now. I think this is where you are at as well?
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There's one thing that stood out to me though, and that's the fact that she entirely flipped her position on BPT claiming. When faust brought it up at he very beginning of the game, she was anti-claiming, now she's pro. That's the only really scummy thing I've seen, and even then it's not necessarily that scummy.
I can't put much stock in that as day1 claiming I think was bad and unnecessary and today is a completely new situation in day2... It probably is still bad, but I understand her desire to figure it out and see if it is worth doing today or not.
PS: I think we need to resolve the claiming in the next ~12 hours and either do it or not do it and then bunker down and focus completely on scum hunting. Talking about claiming is necessary and I am glad we are doing it, but it can get out of hand and distract from everything else that will actually win us the game.
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So yeah, I think a cop should claim and the tracker should claim. Everyone else shouldn't is where I am at right now. I think this is where you are at as well?
Pretty much, yeah. And I think if the tracker claims, he should say who he tracked (implying they're town, otherwise he'd be calling them out on targeting Robz), but not say the exact result, to avoid outing the doctor or making it easy for the mafia to NK him.
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There's one thing that stood out to me though, and that's the fact that she entirely flipped her position on BPT claiming. When faust brought it up at he very beginning of the game, she was anti-claiming, now she's pro. That's the only really scummy thing I've seen, and even then it's not necessarily that scummy.
I can't put much stock in that as day1 claiming I think was bad and unnecessary and today is a completely new situation in day2... It probably is still bad, but I understand her desire to figure it out and see if it is worth doing today or not.
PS: I think we need to resolve the claiming in the next ~12 hours and either do it or not do it and then bunker down and focus completely on scum hunting. Talking about claiming is necessary and I am glad we are doing it, but it can get out of hand and distract from everything else that will actually win us the game.
There is also post in there somewhere where I say a Day 2 IC is preferable to Day 1 IC.
Since everyone wants to start with tracker, I don't think the difference is all that great and I'll go along with that.
If there is no tracker and no cop, and there is a BPT, I will still prefer that the BPT claim today.
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I've been doing a reread on EFHW, to see what a case against her would look like, and I don't see much here, honestly. She mostly seems towny to me, sometimes misguided, sometimes not. I remember having a slight scum read on her but I'm leaning slight town now.
Thank you for your open mind!
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I find it hard to care about soft deadlines, because in my limited experience I've never seen them work. From what I've seen, people like to grandstand about it because it looks pro-town, but then it never actually accomplishes anything. Sure that sounds fine though, I'll believe it when I see it.
Likewise.
We have made them work when there were bankable deadlines. Another reason for getting this claiming over with early is there is less need for a soft deadline.
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If there is no tracker and no cop, and there is a BPT, I will still prefer that the BPT claim today.
I am thinking outside the box here....
It might be bad, but let me work through it...
If there is no tracker claim and no cop claim and there is a BPTownie out there then there is certainly a JK.
So maybe what we should do is if no cop claims and no tracker claims we should have one--or maybe both of the other PRs--claim "Power Role" but not specify which one. I say maybe one because...
Ugh... I am confusing myself... let's try again.
If not cop or tracker claims:
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
That means we have one of two setups: Ok... this won't work. Mafia will know the setup if there isn't a cop or tracker claim and if only the JK claims then that would be bad... if there is a JK and a BPT then both could claim, but the JK wouldn't know that so wouldn't claim first so the BPT would have to claim "PR" first so mafia would know that player was the BPT.
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I posted the above to see if anyone else can figure out a way to make having them claim "Power Role" but not getting into specifics works based off anything I just wrote. I don't think it will, but I just kinda confused myself in the process.
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nvm, BPT should NOT claim if we have no cop or tracker. Unless yuma or someone else figures out an out of the box plan.
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That's an interesting idea yuma--like, maybe would it be beneficial to have a row or column claim rather than a full claim? Is that what you're driving at sort of?
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nvm, BPT should NOT claim if we have no cop or tracker. Unless yuma or someone else figures out an out of the box plan.
remind me not to post after midnight. This scenario is like the BPT claiming right away, except town now more information. So it's actually slightly better than what I was suggesting, but worse than the outcome Teproc and Voltaire are hoping for.
I'm starting to think let's not claim and get back to scum-hunting.
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If there is no tracker and no cop, and there is a BPT, I will still prefer that the BPT claim today.
I am thinking outside the box here....
It might be bad, but let me work through it...
If there is no tracker claim and no cop claim and there is a BPTownie out there then there is certainly a JK.
So maybe what we should do is if no cop claims and no tracker claims we should have one--or maybe both of the other PRs--claim "Power Role" but not specify which one. I say maybe one because...
Ugh... I am confusing myself... let's try again.
If not cop or tracker claims:
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 1-Shot Bulletproof Townie, 1 Town Jailkeeper, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker
6 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Cop, 2 Mafia Goons
5 Vanilla Townies, 1 Town Doctor, 1 Town Tracker, 2 Mafia Goons
That means we have one of two setups: Ok... this won't work. Mafia will know the setup if there isn't a cop or tracker claim and if only the JK claims then that would be bad... if there is a JK and a BPT then both could claim, but the JK wouldn't know that so wouldn't claim first so the BPT would have to claim "PR" first so mafia would know that player was the BPT.
I see two problems here :
1) Just because Cop didn't claim, doesn't mean they're not here, since he shouldn't claim if he targeted Robz.
2) Claiming "PR" is way too easy for Mafia to fakeclaim. Like if they claim "PR", the JK can't counterclaim because they might be a BPT, for example.
So far, Eevee is the only one who hasn't weighed on the issue. I agree that we need to move on pretty soon, but I'd like to at least wait for Eevee to post before we do that.
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Teproc's point about PR's possibly choosing not to claim does mitigate one problem I think we've neglected so far, which is that if we don't have a cop, a tracker or a BPT, we have given a lot of information to the mafia and gained nothing for ourselves.
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I've got nothing to add to the claiming discussion. It's honestly just not my strongest suit - I've read all the analysis and if I'm a pr, I've considered whether I want to claim or not carefully
and will do what I see best.
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That's everyone? Ok then. :(
Regarding my point that it seemed EFHW "knew" I was town, I was referring to this:
Playing devil's advocate, b/c I am also considering voting Voltaire, how would only voting Robz with a weak case be a scum strategy?
Which honestly I remembered as being much stronger at the time. She of course then went on to vote me. I was thinking she only did that after I seemed a viable mislynch.
unvote
Eevee, what are your thoughts on everyone who isn't Walrus?
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Slow news day...
So what did we get out of this whole claiming discussion anyway? Where do we go from here?
Right now, I'll say that I still maintain my vote on Voltaire. I might like Eevee or mail-mi lynches as well. More hesitation for an EFHW lynch; pretty null on her ATM. yuma still seems towny to me, and my initial impressions of Teproc are towny as well.
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So what did we get out of this whole claiming discussion anyway? Where do we go from here?
I think we are at the point where it a cop--with a town or scum result on anyone but Robz--or a tracker--but not saying who they targeted as long as that player didn't target robz--should consider claiming.
all other PRs should stay silent and I think we should be done talking about claiming. If the players claim, they claim. If they don't, they don't and have their reasons for doing so.
i am going to try to put together something on players tonight... but no guarantees...
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That's an interesting idea yuma--like, maybe would it be beneficial to have a row or column claim rather than a full claim? Is that what you're driving at sort of?
That was my idea, but it won't work unfortunately.
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Vote Count 2.3:
Voltaire (2): Yuma, Walrus
Mail-mi (1): Teproc
Not Voting (4): Eevee, mail-mi, EFHW, Voltaire
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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I didn't want to give my reads right away because I didn't want to distract from my case on mail-mi, but it hasn't taken off anyway, and then we got into the whole claiming issue, so here they are :
yuma : town read, I do not foresee lynching him today. Already had a town read after D1, and his bringing up the idea of claiming (which I wouldn't have thought much about otherwise) reads town to me
Voltaire : Hard to tell. It occured to me in rereading him day 1 that we appear to think very similarly. His day 1 play is how I imagine I would play day 1. The buddying he's been doing towards me has been a bit worrying to me, but it might because of this. I don't see the case against him from d1 as particularly strong, it seems like people were mostly trying to find someone to lynch after the wagons on Robz, Walrus and chairs had failed, which is why it was so easily and quickly derailed I think. I stand by my slight town read on him, but I could see this changing. Maybe the people voting for him (I'm including EFHW in this) could elaborate on their case, if it has changed at all since day 1 ?
EFHW : see above, slight town.
Eevee : Null. The slight lurking is a problem, but he reads slightly town when he does post, so it kinda evens out.
Walrus : Was my strongest scum read before I saw mail-mi's voting pattern. I'll have to look back to decide, but he's the one I'm most likely to move my vote for
mail-mi : I made my case, and he remains my strongest scum by far.
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That last sentence should say strongest scum *read* obviously.
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I don't see the case against him from d1 as particularly strong, it seems like people were mostly trying to find someone to lynch after the wagons on Robz, Walrus and chairs had failed, which is why it was so easily and quickly derailed I think. I stand by my slight town read on him, but I could see this changing. Maybe the people voting for him (I'm including EFHW in this) could elaborate on their case, if it has changed at all since day 1 ?
I don't think it fell apart. I think faust did something that many of us saw as extremely scummy and so we moved it there. If faust hadn't done that I think voltaire would have been the lynch and that probably would have been for the best.
Like I said, I'll try to restate my case and add to it, but I just don't have a lot of time to devote to a large project like that, but will come Tuesday when I am off. But I hope to get it done before then...
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1. WalrusMcFishSr - my thoughts are known - a scum read
2. Chairs/Teproc - chairs's outing looked like town frustration (the way it went down), teproc has been playing impressively and quite towny. i disagree with giving yuma town points for soft deadline suggestions, as he does that in every game, but teproc is still a solid town read.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie - rest in peace robz, we will avenge you!
4. Voltaire - hasnt had revolutionary great ideas, has actually blended in surprisingly edgelessly. slight scum read for that (and for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though.)
5. Yuma - is so hard to read. putting in a lot of effort reads towny on intuational level.
6. EFHW - an enigma? she always seems to avoid my attention for some reason. scummy due to PoE / not doing anything towny-appearing.
7. Mail-Mi - voting history yesteday is the single scummiest thing yet to happen this game. would be very willing to lynch. does anyone recall how town/scum mail-mi has voted in the past? i dont mean not explaining his votes here, i mean plobbing them down to anyone who has a remote chance of getting lynched.
8. Eevee - that's me, town!
9. Faust Lynched Day1, Vanilla Townie - poor faust.
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1. WalrusMcFishSr - my thoughts are known - a scum read
2. Chairs/Teproc - chairs's outing looked like town frustration (the way it went down), teproc has been playing impressively and quite towny. i disagree with giving yuma town points for soft deadline suggestions, as he does that in every game, but teproc is still a solid town read.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie - rest in peace robz, we will avenge you!
4. Voltaire - hasnt had revolutionary great ideas, has actually blended in surprisingly edgelessly. slight scum read for that (and for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though.)
5. Yuma - is so hard to read. putting in a lot of effort reads towny on intuational level.
6. EFHW - an enigma? she always seems to avoid my attention for some reason. scummy due to PoE / not doing anything towny-appearing.
7. Mail-Mi - voting history yesteday is the single scummiest thing yet to happen this game. would be very willing to lynch. does anyone recall how town/scum mail-mi has voted in the past? i dont mean not explaining his votes here, i mean plobbing them down to anyone who has a remote chance of getting lynched.
8. Eevee - that's me, town!
9. Faust Lynched Day1, Vanilla Townie - poor faust.
vote: Eevee
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Care to elaborate EFHW? Pretty enigmatic if I may say so!
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1. WalrusMcFishSr - my thoughts are known - a scum read
2. Chairs/Teproc - chairs's outing looked like town frustration (the way it went down), teproc has been playing impressively and quite towny. i disagree with giving yuma town points for soft deadline suggestions, as he does that in every game, but teproc is still a solid town read.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie - rest in peace robz, we will avenge you!
4. Voltaire - hasnt had revolutionary great ideas, has actually blended in surprisingly edgelessly. slight scum read for that (and for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though.)
5. Yuma - is so hard to read. putting in a lot of effort reads towny on intuational level.
6. EFHW - an enigma? she always seems to avoid my attention for some reason. scummy due to PoE / not doing anything towny-appearing.
7. Mail-Mi - voting history yesteday is the single scummiest thing yet to happen this game. would be very willing to lynch. does anyone recall how town/scum mail-mi has voted in the past? i dont mean not explaining his votes here, i mean plobbing them down to anyone who has a remote chance of getting lynched.
8. Eevee - that's me, town!
9. Faust Lynched Day1, Vanilla Townie - poor faust.
vote: Eevee
We are at a stage in the game where votes can't be cast without an explanation. We don't have the time.
Combine that with that I think this is actually something of a scummy vote. It appears to be semi-OMGUS and I just looked back through all of EFHW's posts today and there was nothing about Eevee there, so it must be in regard to this post... vote: EFHW
I am not saying eevee isn't scummy. His major lurking (yes I know part of it was VLA, but the rest was lurking) has him pretty scummy in my eyes, but this post from EFHW really raised the idea of her being scum in my estimation.
I still need to go back and gather some thoughts on Voltaire and now I need to add EFHW to that list I guess...
I take it that since no one has claimed we have a lame setup? That is kinda unfortunate I guess, but we will have to make do...
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ok, ok, I was always going to explain.
My vote is partly decided impressionistically, but to spell out what am observing:
1. The post feels carefully constructed, with an even balance of scummy and town reads.
2. He doesn't refresh or even remind us of the case on Walrus, just says his scum read continues.
3. chairs didn't out b/c of town frustration, he didn't have time to play the game.
4. "for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though." Gratuitous jab and retraction.
5. Says I haven't done anything towny. I may not be great at theory, but I've been actively trying to sort out town's best interests,
6. "rest in peace robz, we will avenge you" and "poor faust". I know Eevee is a nice guy, but these comments feel a bit staged?
Am I reading too much into this post? Maybe, but that's how it struck me.
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No I mostly agree with your points, parts of Eevee's post also came across as weird to me. But so did your unexplained vote.
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ok, ok, I was always going to explain.
My vote is partly decided impressionistically, but to spell out what am observing:
1. The post feels carefully constructed, with an even balance of scummy and town reads.
2. He doesn't refresh or even remind us of the case on Walrus, just says his scum read continues.
3. chairs didn't out b/c of town frustration, he didn't have time to play the game.
4. "for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though." Gratuitous jab and retraction.
5. Says I haven't done anything towny. I may not be great at theory, but I've been actively trying to sort out town's best interests,
6. "rest in peace robz, we will avenge you" and "poor faust". I know Eevee is a nice guy, but these comments feel a bit staged?
Am I reading too much into this post? Maybe, but that's how it struck me.
vote: Eevee again. The walrus case was a good one D1, but I don't think it's good for D2, and I don't like how he's pushing it.
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ok, ok, I was always going to explain.
My vote is partly decided impressionistically, but to spell out what am observing:
1. The post feels carefully constructed, with an even balance of scummy and town reads.
2. He doesn't refresh or even remind us of the case on Walrus, just says his scum read continues.
3. chairs didn't out b/c of town frustration, he didn't have time to play the game.
4. "for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though." Gratuitous jab and retraction.
5. Says I haven't done anything towny. I may not be great at theory, but I've been actively trying to sort out town's best interests,
6. "rest in peace robz, we will avenge you" and "poor faust". I know Eevee is a nice guy, but these comments feel a bit staged?
Am I reading too much into this post? Maybe, but that's how it struck me.
vote: Eevee again. The walrus case was a good one D1, but I don't think it's good for D2, and I don't like how he's pushing it.
I'll let eevee say what he wants to say about this... but... I think maybe 1/2 of these six points has merit. Are you two basing your votes completely off this one post? What about the other stuff eevee has done this game. To me that is more egregious than anything eevee did in the post you are referencing. And unvote until I can fully look back into EFHW and voltaire.. maybe tonight?
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um, what other stuff has Eevee done? I only pointed out the new things prompting me to vote for him. The old reasons still stand - his post on Robz I know most people don't agree with me about, but his lurking, after saying several times he would be more active, and doing very little scumhunting seem to be generally acknowledged.
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Let's start with EFHW:
So I feel like early day1 she was just calling out scummy behavior right and left. Rarely, if at all pointing out town behavior...
Some examples here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308977#msg308977), here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308982#msg308982), here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308984#msg308984), here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308987#msg308987), here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309266#msg309266).
She really never has a town read. The closest she gets is saying she doens't want to lynch mail-mi or chairs because of "lack of information."
She sides on the scummier side of the walrus debate.
And then moves a vote to chairs after all...
And is very paranoid about being painted as scummy. Here is an example but there is a whole conversation about this:
I feel like you are looking for reasons to paint me as mafia. This is the thing I find scummy about your play in this game - It looks like you are systematically trying to weaken my influence and if that is true, it is very, very scummy.
Then there was this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309067#msg309067) where EFHW tries to use AtE to try and get me away from suspecting her. She bases an argument on some things that she had said had happened in prior games... that I had almost anytime she had suspected me I had reacted back with suspicion at her. However, when I went back and checked this statement it proved to be blatantly false as it only happened one time in about 5-6 we have played together. To me this might be more than just misremembering, but scummy AtE to try and manipulate me to take my vote away. I should note that she never, ever responded to me saying that her statement was false and just let the situation float away unaddressed.
This statement reads scummy to me as well:
Now that I understand why I seemed scummy, I would like to officially apologize and request another chance!
Her vote on Robz kinda came out of nowhere and was totally OMGUS. Although Robz's kinda came out of nowhere as well... which she then says was for "a reaction..." yuck. So she says, maybe she realized it looked scummy and needed a way to back out of it?
But really... I dont' think EFHW had a single town read all of day1. Not one. That is 60 posts w/o a townread. This is big I think. I would ask that everyone go back and look at this as well as it is hard to show that here.. .you can't quote something that isn't there...
The closest she gets are these posts:
a null read on Robz (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg310236#msg310236)
lack of information on mail-mi and chairs, who she later finds scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309376#msg309376)
and a null read on robz (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308929#msg308929)
Lack of town reads is scummy. In fact EFHW says this herself...
So, do I think yuma is town making the best case he can according to his perceptions, or do I think he is scum and trying to get a mislynch? His approach to me has felt so scummy. But I am also noticing his having strong town reads, which in a small game would be risky for scum. They want any mislynch they can get, and having strong town reads burns bridges.
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So in summary:
I find EFHW scummy for:
1. having no townreads throughout all of day1.
2. being overly paranoid about being perceived as scummy.
3. using AtE with me and then not responding when I noted that her statement was false.
4. probably more stuff from day2. I haven't gone back and looked at day2 yet. Baby is about to wake up so don't have time.
I still plan on reading voltaire as well... but for now, I feel pretty good about vote: efhw. Seriously guys, just go back and read EFHW. She has zero townreads. That is just... something I can totally see mafia doing unconsciously. In a game of this size it is hard to have town reads as scum, because if they become "obviously town" that is less people for you to mislynch. As a result you have to be on the offensive and get other people to be scummy. I think EFHW went a little too overboard doing this and tried too hard to make everyone else scummy. A pertinent question is to see who she did this the least with... That could be a possible scum buddy. Robz is the player she did it the least with. But he can't be a scumbuddy. I think mail-mi is perhaps the next? Maybe Walrus? She constantly sat on the fence post with him I think... But that is a project for another day or someone else.
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This is the second time yuma has come after me right after I made a case against Eevee.
reply #136
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Replies: 137-143 There is an exchange between me and Eevee, a single-line comment from mail-mi and then:
Reply #144
vote: EFHW
I have more responses to his case that will take more time to pull together.
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Regarding yuma reacting hostilely to suspicions against him - He is correct it has only happened between us in a couple games. Pirates II must have made a very big impression on me. However, going through the games we have played together I find that he is almost never seriously suspected, but when he is, he does respond more aggressively than his other posts in the same game. Some examples:
Vote:Yuma for having a plan but actually being unclear on whether it's a plan or not. I still don't know!
of course it is a plan. I said it was a plan. So it is a plan! What do you take me for?
Unvote
While this gives Yuma a lot of town credit, I'm still not considering him 100% IC. Maybe like 85%!
really... well I am inclined to vote: nkirbit just for that. You really think that putting everyone up to L-1 is the way to do this? Alright. Let's start with you.
The fact that yuma is against the plan and claims his role isn't on the wiki makes me more interested in following it. Because if my theory is right, chairs is a Mentor and yuma is his Mentee, and yuma has to do everything in his power to not let chairs die.
then lynch me, see that I am town and be done with it. Seriously. If you think that I would rather go to the grave than have chairs die. (already anticipating you saying "further evidence!!! yuma would rather die as a mentee than watch his mentor die!!!) But seriously, let's hunt mafia... rather than go off on wild goose chases...
vote: voltgloss
This one is really long, so I'll just post the link:
Add to this his aggressive response in this game ....
Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Back that up. Right now. Back it up.
I don't think it is inaccurate to say that yuma comes on very strong when suspected. As I said before, I don't think this is scummy or bad play. I am pointing it out b/c I think this strategy may make people less likely to vote for him.
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quote fail. You get the idea.
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Regarding the scumminess of having many suspicions and not stating any townreads, you are deciding to see that as scummy by imagining a scenario in which it could be. I see that as scumhunting. If I had a townread, I would say it. It would hardly be helpful for me to state townreads I don't have. You yourself have played similarly:
From LOTR2 (a 13 player game):
I am also comfortable waiting until Day 3 to proceed further with massclaim.
If TA feels the same, then I will issue my challenge. If not, I will wait until after massclaim concludes.
Yuma seems to be quick to issue suspicions today, and I haven't really heard him call anyone (but chairs) towny. Even with me and nkirbit it seemed to me more like he was thanking us for helping his agenda further rather than giving us any town points.
I am always quick to issue with suspicion. You know that. I had called arch townie previous to his lying (based mostly off my following result). I find you townie, based off your claim and further evidence that chairs is town. Other than that... I don't know. Oh... mcmc I think is town.
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I have done a lot of posting in Day 2. I know you are busy, but neglecting that makes it look like you are only looking for what you can call scummy, not trying to figure out if I am actually scum or not.
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Regarding my being paranoid. I am clearly still affected by my Pirates experience, but this post in particular reminded me of then and prompted me to wonder if you are taking opportunities to suggest to town that I shouldn't be listened to.
Is the only reason I am not voting for eevee because the other voter is EFHW? Maybe... but is that bad? No. I think eevee had a valid point about robz and don't see it as scummy...
so maybe there isn't mafia on Walrus? Or maybe Walrus is mafia...?
I am going back to vote: EFHW
This post on it's own would be innocuous, but coming after the other one, italso caught my eye.
Now the wagon on me... it's already late D1, and the wagons on Robz and Walrus don't seem to end in a lynch. Scum needs a viable lynch candidate that isn't them. yuma has been pushing me a long time, and is perceived as a good player and a driving force by town. Agreeing with him will not look too bad, even if he's wrong. I think scum is likely to jump this wagon now, and that makes mail-mi and chairs look quite suspicious.
This is a very good point, if you are town. I am very interested in seeing what players who I have townier reads on (robz, walrus and voltaire to an extent think of this case) because it is concerning when the only players agreeing with me are on the scummier side... one seemingly doing so for survival reasons...
Basically I am looking for your strategies and calling them out when I see them b/c they are effective and I seem to be your target in this game.
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FINALLY, you are still relying on this initial case you made on me that was based entirely on my having a null read on one person and a scum read on another person who had defended my nullread. I backed you up on this in that I see the value in alerting town to possible warning signs, but voting me on that basis and then consistently calling me scummy from there on is excessive, and scummy.
vote: yuma.
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Catching up, I'l respond to stuff along the way.
2. Chairs/Teproc - [...] i disagree with giving yuma town points for soft deadline suggestions, as he does that in every game
I don't think I've been giving him town points for that, rather for initiating the claims discussion, which might not be a good thing to give townie points over either though.
I just looked back through all of EFHW's posts today and there was nothing about Eevee there, so it must be in regard to this post... vote: EFHW
This is false. EFHW has expressed suspicion (and voted for) Eevee day 1 because of his response to Robz "this wagon will dissipate anyway" comment.
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ok, ok, I was always going to explain.
My vote is partly decided impressionistically, but to spell out what am observing:
1. The post feels carefully constructed, with an even balance of scummy and town reads.
2. He doesn't refresh or even remind us of the case on Walrus, just says his scum read continues.
3. chairs didn't out b/c of town frustration, he didn't have time to play the game.
4. "for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though." Gratuitous jab and retraction.
5. Says I haven't done anything towny. I may not be great at theory, but I've been actively trying to sort out town's best interests,
6. "rest in peace robz, we will avenge you" and "poor faust". I know Eevee is a nice guy, but these comments feel a bit staged?
Am I reading too much into this post? Maybe, but that's how it struck me.
This vote doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
1, 4 and 6 basically all boil down to : Eevee's post feels staged.
2. That's true.
4. chairs certainly seemed frustrated to me. I don't think Eevee's assessment is wrong enough to be scummy here.
5. So, you're voting Eevee because he doesn't think you're townie enough ? I think there's a name for that...
It feel's like you scrambled to make your vote seems less OMGUSy than it is because you got called on it.
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vote: Eevee again. The walrus case was a good one D1, but I don't think it's good for D2, and I don't like how he's pushing it.
Hey, mail-mi sees a weak case against someone lynchable and jumps in ! How surprising !
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quote author=yuma link=topic=9669.msg312163#msg312163 date=1384052340]
So in summary:
I find EFHW scummy for:
1. having no townreads throughout all of day1.
2. being overly paranoid about being perceived as scummy.
3. using AtE with me and then not responding when I noted that her statement was false.
4. probably more stuff from day2. I haven't gone back and looked at day2 yet. Baby is about to wake up so don't have time.
[/quote]
1. So, EFHW hasn't had a town read in the game. This is true IIRC.
How is that scummy ? Being suspicious of everyone seems like the definition of town to me.
Well, you answered that actually, but it seems like a stretch to me. Isn't scum more likely to actively have town reads on people because then these people will think : "Oh, he/she's so perceptive and sees I'm town !"
2. This is what's worrying me. This vote against Eevee reads as barely disguised OMGUS, and she had one or two of those already day 1.
3. Do you mean not responding day 1 ? I think she did, and specified Pirates was the one she was talking about. I'l have to reread that exchange.
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Regarding yuma reacting hostilely to suspicions against him - He is correct it has only happened between us in a couple games. Pirates II must have made a very big impression on me. However, going through the games we have played together I find that he is almost never seriously suspected, but when he is, he does respond more aggressively than his other posts in the same game. Some examples:
You do realize all of these come from a game in which yuma was town ?
You do realize your goal here should be to prove us that this behavior is indicative of scum!yuma, not just of yuma not liking being accused ?
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FINALLY, you are still relying on this initial case you made on me that was based entirely on my having a null read on one person and a scum read on another person who had defended my nullread. I backed you up on this in that I see the value in alerting town to possible warning signs, but voting me on that basis and then consistently calling me scummy from there on is excessive, and scummy.
vote: yuma.
For everyone, here is the exchange we are talking about here :
vote: EFHW
Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...
Well, this is pretty interesting. It's so early I have no read on Robz. Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment. So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him. Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him? I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.
middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)
last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.
And EFHW's response :
yuma - do you realize that almost anytime I say you are even a bit scummy you come out in a strong attack against me? Also, I didn't follow mcmc's game. You are saying I: 1. had a null read, 2. wanted to look for useful information in that person's wagon, and 3. found someone scummy for their defense of my null read. These are very common events in a mafia game.
Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on. I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post. Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations. You both responded with long posts and votes against me.
Where is the "I backed you up" comment here ?
Saying that his case against you is just a series of event that are common in a mafia game is ridiculous. Let's do this with your case against yuma :
1. He found you scummy
2. He continued finding you scumm
3. Honestly, that's pretty much it.
If it feels like I was misrepresenting you there, it's because I was. Just like you were in the quote above. Saying that a case is just a series of likely events is an awful defense.
I'm omitting your "yuma is reactive when called out as scum" because, as your quotes proves, this is not indicative of yuma being scum.
So this looks like yet another OMGUS vote. That's not good. I don't think yuma's case is strong, but your reaction is just so weird to me that I can't help but be tempted to vote for you...
mail-mi still exists though, so I'm not doing that just yet. Seriously people, he his scum and you are allowing to just ignore me altogether because he seems to be lynchproof today.
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Vote Count 2.4:
Voltaire (1): Walrus
Mail-mi (1): Teproc
Eevee (1): mail-mi
EFHW (1): Yuma
Yuma (1): EFHW
Not Voting (2): Eevee, Voltaire
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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Vote: mail-mi
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Vote: mail-mi
OMGUS.
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Vote: mail-mi
OMGUS.
Well, I was voicing suspicion of you way before you decided to vote for me without giving reasons, so that's be very true.
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Teproc you are missing my points. yuma asked for evidence of his being aggressive when suspected. That's why I provided it. I don't think it makes him scummy, and I said so. I think he uses that to keep from being accused and I am pointing it out to town b/c if he is scum that is a powerful defense if not recognized. I voted for yuma, but most of those posts were my defense against his attack, not my case against him.
My vote on Eevee is not OMGUS. Day 1 he hadn't suspected me at all. And his post feeling staged was what I was trying to show. Also, I felt he misrepresented me and I said so.
The post where I backed up yuma's decision to mention the similarity with Theorel comes later (see below). And show me what else besides that he includes in his "case"? Later he brings up my vote on Eevee, but that's not in the post he where he votes me. I've bolded the actions on my part that he says led him to make this post: I had a middling read on Robz, wondered about the wagon, and suspected Eevee who had defended Robz. That's it.
vote: EFHW
Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...
Well, this is pretty interesting. It's so early I have no read on Robz. Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment. So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him. Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him? I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.
middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)
last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.
Me backing up yuma's decision to mention the parallel with Theorel. Note also that I defend faust, who was town, against yuma, who pushed him that entire day:
Having read yuma's case and followed up all his links, I think points 5 and 6 obviously hold water. These are both verifiably true and require no spin to agree with. I think his #4 point also has some validity to it. yuma's discussion of Walrus was judicious and did not read like spinning to me.
Point #3 was just false, something I was going to point out also. #2 is yuma's pet peeve, I don't get much information from it myself. If he was close to lynch, yes, that would be anti-town. This seemed like a joke.
#1 is about spinning. faust said yuma's case against me was constructed, and I agree. I happen to also agree with yuma that was worth mentioning, b/c town doesn't want to get hoodwinked by such shenanigans, and pointing this out is a deterrent just in case I am scum. But I am asserting that getting a scumread on me on that basis is spin on yuma's part and imo certainly merited faust's pointing it out, and he was not the only one.
So, do I think yuma is town making the best case he can according to his perceptions, or do I think he is scum and trying to get a mislynch? His approach to me has felt so scummy. But I am also noticing his having strong town reads, which in a small game would be risky for scum. They want any mislynch they can get, and having strong town reads burns bridges.
I am going to withhold judgment on yuma. I am not convinced about faust, and the people voting for faust (mail-mi and chairs) don't seem to be basing their votes on this case at all. They both seem to prefer to vote impressionistically, meaning they rarely articulate reasons. I'm sticking with my chairs vote.
Also, while I'm at it, here is what I actually said about my vote on Robz. I was completely straightforward about the vote being OMGUS. Robz had voted me with no explanation, I copied him and hoped to get some response.
unvote. My vote on Robz was OMGUS, looking for his reaction. But I don't want to accelerate a wagon on him b/c I have no idea if he is scum. I think we should look at Eevee - who is acting very similar to Voltaire's description of Robz - and maybe Voltaire himself, since he has seemed a lot less present than I am used to him being.
PPE I see Robz is on. Why did you vote for me?
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Teproc you are missing my points. yuma asked for evidence of his being aggressive when suspected. That's why I provided it. I don't think it makes him scummy, and I said so. I think he uses that to keep from being accused and I am pointing it out to town b/c if he is scum that is a powerful defense if not recognized. I voted for yuma, but most of those posts were my defense against his attack, not my case against him.
Ok.
My vote on Eevee is not OMGUS. Day 1 he hadn't suspected me at all. And his post feeling staged was what I was trying to show. Also, I felt he misrepresented me and I said so.
How did he misrepresent you ? By saying you haven't done anything towny ? That's not what I'd call misrepresenting. It might not be true (it depends on how you judge your day 1 suspicions), but it's not misrepresenting (which is way scummier to me).
So you thought his post felt staged. Ok, but why try to buff up your case artificially by making several points out of it ? Either it's a good enough reason to vote, or it's not. I don't think it is, which brings me to think you have another reason. This could be trying to get a wagon going on Eevee because he's an easy target, for example.
Basically, this is the second time this game you've voted for Eevee for very weak reasons. I can accept that day 1, not so much day 2.
The post where I backed up yuma's decision to mention the similarity with Theorel comes later (see below). And show me what else besides that he includes in his "case"? Later he brings up my vote on Eevee, but that's not in the post he where he votes me. I've bolded the actions on my part that he says led him to make this post: I had a middling read on Robz, wondered about the wagon, and suspected Eevee who had defended Robz. That's it.
First of all, I think your defense against that case was very problematic. Reducing it to "I did this and this and that, things that happen every game" is not an adequate response. An adequate response is to justify your actions, not to say that they don't matter.
But most importantly, yuma has definitely added things to his day 1 case, you even adressed them. Saying yuma is still relying on his day 1 case when he clearly has other stuff to say (regardless of their value), isn't THAT misrepresenting ?
There's also something else I find problematic in your defense. In this game, you've said that it would be risky for scum to have townreads. Here's the quote :
But I am also noticing his having strong town reads, which in a small game would be risky for scum. They want any mislynch they can get, and having strong town reads burns bridges.
Now yuma uses this against you, and here's your response :
Regarding the scumminess of having many suspicions and not stating any townreads, you are deciding to see that as scummy by imagining a scenario in which it could be.
It seems to me that this scenario he's imagining is one you've adhered to yourself.
Again, yuma's case is not that convincing to me, but your defense is making it seem a lot better.
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ok, well your points aren't unreasonable, but I don't agree with most of them. I believe I addressed many aspects of yuma's case, so I am not only criticizing the initial case, which should have been clear, really. I didn't realize a defense of my nullread and scumread was called for - are you asking for that? Do you not find it scummy that yuma voted and pursued me initially based solely on the similarity to Theorel from a game I wasn't in and didn't follow?
Eevee misrepresented me b/c I believe I have done towny things today. Of course, anyone can spin them into something else, decide I'm faking, or disagree with the content, but he suggests I have not been contributing and that just isn't true.
Regarding townreads, I have not adhered to yuma's imagined scenario. I have gone about my business and ended up not having townreads. That point I made was actually in yuma's favor, and if I was using that strategy (avoiding townreads to keep mislynch options open) do you really think I'd post about it like that?
My main goal is to not be mislynched. If yuma and/or Eevee are scum, I want them lynched. I've said before I don't know if yuma coming after me is mistaken perception or an attempt to mislynch. I've gone back and forth on that in my mind. It especially bothers me that he made this strongly worded, emphatic case without even going over Day 2. And why does he come to Eevee's defense so vociferously, twice now?
The next step I think will be to review yuma's case against faust, who was mislynched, to see if I can learn anything there.
The thing is, I bet I can read yuma's posts and see them as scummy if that's what I want to do. I can make up scenarios where his defense of Walrus was for towncred, or his reflectiveness on the faust case was feigned. I think I could put together a pretty convincing narrative. But would it be true? Is being able to imagine a narrative justification enough to vote? People do that a lot, but my impression is that they are usually wrong.
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I think that's enough from me for awhile. Where are other people's thoughts in terms of scum hunting?
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I'll be back into this with a vengeance tomorrow.
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long day of work followed by an epic soccer game (Go Real Salt Lake) means it is time for bed for me. So you get nothing from me until tomorrow after work. I am sure people have stuff for me to respond to.
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Just a heads-up, but I probably won't be very present today (it's a holiday here, WW1 peace). I'll be back shortly before the soft deadline though, and I'll hopefully have some reading to do by then
About EFHW... I feel lost. It feels like my read on her depends on the hour of the day I'm reading her posts so... I just don't really know. Her last post was reasonable, too.
It feels like a lot of this day has been a waste for me, since nobody claimed and I'm still undecided on EFHW. But I guess we still have a little time.
All in all, I still think we should lynch mail-mi. If not, Walrus and Eevee are next in line for me, in that order.
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I too have not been so present, long weekend for me as well. So I apologize for that.
At first glance this EFHW/Teproc banter strikes me as town vs. town. Meanwhile I imagine scum lurks elsewhere...
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I too have not been so present, long weekend for me as well. So I apologize for that.
At first glance this EFHW/Teproc banter strikes me as town vs. town. Meanwhile I imagine scum lurks elsewhere...
I too think it is town v town. If one of them is scum, however, it's EFHW for sure.
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@Voltaire, Walrus, mail-mi and Teproc: I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think we should lynch either Eevee or yuma today. I can move back to Eevee if you are more comfortable lynching him, since he's been lurking a lot. They seem very much linked b/c of yuma's defending Eevee so vigorously, and I think there is a good chance they are the scum team, and we can wrap this game up. If I'm wrong, then we'll know and I'll look elsewhere. But I think this is the thing to do today. Are you with me?
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@Voltaire, Walrus, mail-mi and Teproc: I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think we should lynch either Eevee or yuma today. I can move back to Eevee if you are more comfortable lynching him, since he's been lurking a lot. They seem very much linked b/c of yuma's defending Eevee so vigorously, and I think there is a good chance they are the scum team, and we can wrap this game up. If I'm wrong, then we'll know and I'll look elsewhere. But I think this is the thing to do today. Are you with me?
I have no qualms about it.
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I don't even remember yuma defending Eevee. I need to re-read.
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1. WalrusMcFishSr - my thoughts are known - a scum read
2. Chairs/Teproc - chairs's outing looked like town frustration (the way it went down), teproc has been playing impressively and quite towny. i disagree with giving yuma town points for soft deadline suggestions, as he does that in every game, but teproc is still a solid town read.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie - rest in peace robz, we will avenge you!
4. Voltaire - hasnt had revolutionary great ideas, has actually blended in surprisingly edgelessly. slight scum read for that (and for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though.)
5. Yuma - is so hard to read. putting in a lot of effort reads towny on intuational level.
6. EFHW - an enigma? she always seems to avoid my attention for some reason. scummy due to PoE / not doing anything towny-appearing.
7. Mail-Mi - voting history yesteday is the single scummiest thing yet to happen this game. would be very willing to lynch. does anyone recall how town/scum mail-mi has voted in the past? i dont mean not explaining his votes here, i mean plobbing them down to anyone who has a remote chance of getting lynched.
8. Eevee - that's me, town!
9. Faust Lynched Day1, Vanilla Townie - poor faust.
Eevee, what was your goal with this post?
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I was replying to a question a fine fellow from Chicago asked me, let me find the quote.
Here it is:
Eevee, what are your thoughts on everyone who isn't Walrus?
So. it was copypasting the player list from the op and trying to write down my thoughts on everyone, as you asked.
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Gotcha. It contains many strangely scummy statements, so in our wonderful world I find this rather town of you as you should "know better".
I do not buy EFHW's scumteam theory.
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there is stuff i need to respond to that requires two hands... I only have one atm due to baby holding, so responding here is going to have to wail til later this evening, but i have lots to say
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Well, I expected a little more coming back. Isn't this supposed to be the soft deadline ? I understand there's another game going on, but I get what someone (?) was saying about soft deadlines having no effect now...
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Vote Count 2.5:
Voltaire (1): Walrus
Mail-mi (1): Teproc
Eevee (2): mail-mi, Eevee
EFHW (1): Yuma
Yuma (1): EFHW
Not Voting (1): Voltaire
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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@Twistedarcher : Eevee is voting for mail-mi, not for... himself ;)
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I'm here, waiting to hear more responses to my wish to lynch Eevee or yuma today.
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Vote Count 2.6:
Voltaire (1): Walrus
Mail-mi (2): Teproc, Eevee
Eevee (1): mail-mi
EFHW (1): Yuma
Yuma (1): EFHW
Not Voting (1): Voltaire
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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Alright, full posts finally coming from me in the next little bit. Hope to be fully caught up and set on a lynch candidate by end of the night.
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This is the second time yuma has come after me right after I made a case against Eevee.
reply #136
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Replies: 137-143 There is an exchange between me and Eevee, a single-line comment from mail-mi and then:
Reply #144
vote: EFHW
I have more responses to his case that will take more time to pull together.
Well both times it was because something you did caught my interest. Look, I am not thinking eevee is town. He is probably square in the middle on that front... but your approaches to him--and throughout the game--have caught my attention and caused me to go back and look at you more in depth. If the same approach were to any other player, I would have reacted the same. Obviously town can't know that, but that is the way it is. That is how I play. I see something that causes me to want to go back and reread that player as I don't have time to do rereads on everyone, so I have to be selective.
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Regarding the scumminess of having many suspicions and not stating any townreads, you are deciding to see that as scummy by imagining a scenario in which it could be. I see that as scumhunting. If I had a townread, I would say it. It would hardly be helpful for me to state townreads I don't have. You yourself have played similarly:
From LOTR2 (a 13 player game):
I am also comfortable waiting until Day 3 to proceed further with massclaim.
If TA feels the same, then I will issue my challenge. If not, I will wait until after massclaim concludes.
Yuma seems to be quick to issue suspicions today, and I haven't really heard him call anyone (but chairs) towny. Even with me and nkirbit it seemed to me more like he was thanking us for helping his agenda further rather than giving us any town points.
I am always quick to issue with suspicion. You know that. I had called arch townie previous to his lying (based mostly off my following result). I find you townie, based off your claim and further evidence that chairs is town. Other than that... I don't know. Oh... mcmc I think is town.
I don't get what you are trying to say here. For starters, it is a horrible example. Let me bold why for you. In this very post I give out FOUR town reads! FOUR!
So this is not an example of me playing the same as you are playing here. You had given out ZERO town reads. ZERO. That I think is scummy. Very much so.
I will say it again, when a player is scum their focus is less on finding players townie--that eliminates the pool for which you can lynch. Because if you have a town read on someone it becomes sooo much harder as scum to flip and decide to lynch that player--it looks extraordinarily scummy--so if you have a town read on someone as scum you hold true to that read. As a result so much of scum's efforts is instead put onto making other people scummy and trying to get them mislynched. Putting out town reads as scum takes tremendous effort and risk. I think this is a situation where scum overlooked that facet of the game because I can't believe that town would go into a game and have ZERO town reads. I just can't. Because if you have ZERO town reads that means you have ZERO scum reads as everyone is scummy. So in the end you aren't scum hunting. You aren't separating the wheat from the chaff. You are just finding everyone else scummy, which is something that scum does.
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I have done a lot of posting in Day 2. I know you are busy, but neglecting that makes it look like you are only looking for what you can call scummy, not trying to figure out if I am actually scum or not.
Baby and work. Sorry my schedule can't be more convenient. I am trying to figure out if you are scum or not. I said I would go back adn look at day2 and I will, but I am not one to just leave my thoughts hanging w/o any action. I think what I found day1 was worthy of a vote. If I find anything day2 that might change or anything from other players. But when I find something scummy, I say that it is scummy and I vote it.
This is just you trying to discredit my case.
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Basically I am looking for your strategies and calling them out when I see them b/c they are effective and I seem to be your target in this game.
except for that huge swath of time that I was on voltaire and faust day1 and voltaire day2... you seem to think that I have been harping on you all game. I haven't. I have early on day1 and late day2. But again... paranoia.
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FINALLY, you are still relying on this initial case you made on me that was based entirely on my having a null read on one person and a scum read on another person who had defended my nullread. I backed you up on this in that I see the value in alerting town to possible warning signs, but voting me on that basis and then consistently calling me scummy from there on is excessive, and scummy.
vote: yuma.
I said nothing about my initial case in my post with my latest vote on you and am certainly not relying on it in anyway. It was an early case that I eventually dropped. My voting for you right now has very little to do with that. I think it is one example of you not having a town read, but instead a scum read and a null read. So I don't know why you think that I am still relying on it when I have not said anything about it in quite a while...
Oh and OMGURS
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I just looked back through all of EFHW's posts today and there was nothing about Eevee there, so it must be in regard to this post... vote: EFHW
This is false. EFHW has expressed suspicion (and voted for) Eevee day 1 because of his response to Robz "this wagon will dissipate anyway" comment.
I said EFHW's post today as in day2. I didn't go back and read through her posts day1 until later. So my statement is true.
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1. So, EFHW hasn't had a town read in the game. This is true IIRC.
How is that scummy ? Being suspicious of everyone seems like the definition of town to me.
Well, you answered that actually, but it seems like a stretch to me. Isn't scum more likely to actively have town reads on people because then these people will think : "Oh, he/she's so perceptive and sees I'm town !"
I strongly disagree. Like emphatically and exuberantly disagree. See my posts above about this but I'll say more again here. When you are scum, once you have a town read you need a really good reason to move your vote. Or else you attract tremendous attention. And for scum they don't care about finding people townie... they already know everyone is town. So their attention is on making people look scum.
The fact that EFHW doesn't have town reads means she isn't scum hunting. She is just trying to make people look scummy. She isn't trying to separate out who is town and who is scum. This is very, very, very scummy to me because it actually goes into the mindsets of someone as scum and shows what scum's true motivation is. I would be extremely surprised if EFHW is town. Obviously I am not 100% sure, but I would put my confidence up in the 75% range or even higher, which is extremely high for me. It is rare enough that I even feel comfortable putting a number on it.
2. This is what's worrying me. This vote against Eevee reads as barely disguised OMGUS, and she had one or two of those already day 1.
3. Do you mean not responding day 1 ? I think she did, and specified Pirates was the one she was talking about. I'l have to reread that exchange.
Add in another OMGUS vote on me just now.
As for point three. She did respond and said Pirates was the one she was talking about. But in that post she implied that there were other games, just that Pirates was the most significant. I went back and checked and found out that there weren't any other games. That pirates was the only one. This makes me think that she might have been using pirates as an exaggeration as an appeal to emotion.
I will note here that I am not sure why that Pirates game would have such an impact on her (I am sorry if it did)... she survived through the whole thing and wasn't mislynched. I did suspect her, but it wasn't like she was lynched because of it.
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I hadnt quite realized how scummy having no town reads actually is until yuma spelled it out just now.
I support vote: efwh, something needs to be done to get us out of this "one core
for every single player" situation we seem to
be stuck in.
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Do you not find it scummy that yuma voted and pursued me initially based solely on the similarity to Theorel from a game I wasn't in and didn't follow?
Based soley on???? Again. That was an early case. I said nothing about it in my latest vote on you. So.... not sure why you are even bringing this up.
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@Voltaire, Walrus, mail-mi and Teproc: I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think we should lynch either Eevee or yuma today. I can move back to Eevee if you are more comfortable lynching him, since he's been lurking a lot. They seem very much linked b/c of yuma's defending Eevee so vigorously, and I think there is a good chance they are the scum team, and we can wrap this game up. If I'm wrong, then we'll know and I'll look elsewhere. But I think this is the thing to do today. Are you with me?
Back this up. I have voted for you twice because of things I noticed in relation to you voting eevee, but I have certainly not defended him vigorously.
More alarm bells here.
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I'm here, waiting to hear more responses to my wish to lynch Eevee or yuma today.
No thanks, but I appreciate the offer.
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I hadnt quite realized how scummy having no town reads actually is until yuma spelled it out just now.
I support vote: efwh, something needs to be done to get us out of this "one core
for every single player" situation we seem to
be stuck in.
I don't know what this means.
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core=vote, I'm no Galzria at phone posting.
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Very much like yuma's case, willing to vote EFHW. What's the current vote count? Only yuma and Eevee on EFHW right now?
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Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls... I give you EFHW day2:
First important post is a vote based off theory? (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg311464#msg311464) What are we in RVS? And turns out it was the right call... funny vote coming right at the start of day2. Interesting to note that this was a L-1 vote...
Lots of theory talk that I have no read on cause I don't think you can get a true read from theory talk.
And then the vote on eevee (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg312056#msg312056) that caught my attention.
And then her on the defensive after I made my case...
So really not nearly as much substance as I think EFHW gave herself credit for (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg312300#msg312300) and not a lot that I get reads from. A little bit to add to the case in regard to how she voted for eevee and her explanations for them and in her defending herself. But my case is mostly predicated on her not having town reads day1. That is a very big deal to me.
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vote: EFHW
That is L-1. Nobody hammer. Doing so is an admission you are scum.
If you want to hammer, state "intent to hammer". Then allow EFHW time to claim. She likely can't fakeclaim or she'll be caught (she'll have to decide if that might be worth it for her team if she's scum). If she's a town PR obviously we don't want to lynch her. After we've decided if her claim is plausible, you can hammer if still needed.
(this is mostly for Teproc but I like stating the obvious just as a reminder to everyone)
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I was going to put her at L-1 as well. yuma convinced me on the "no town reads" thing, and the case looks at lot stronger because of that. I think my problem with it came from thinking mafia should try to appear towny more than anything, but that resoning doesn't actually help much, and also doesn't work with my scum read.n mail-mi. I'll wait for her to respond of course
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Ok, yuma, I misread you. When you referred to early Day 1, I thought you were going back to the old case. I was not aware until just now that you had repudiated that case. So far as I knew, you were still using it.
I understand how not having townreads looks scummy - I'm the one who brought it up! I didn't even realize that was the case with me until you said it. Do you think if I was scum and using that strategy that I would purposely call attention to it? btw, you had 4 lukewarm townreads in a 13 player game. This is a 9 player game. And if I was trying to tunnel you, I would have just left those out. The point of that quote was that you endorsed a "quick to suspicion" play style, which is what you were criticizing me for doing.
My first vote on Eevee was very early, when people make votes for little or subtle things. When you defended him AND came out with that business about Theorel AND voted me, it seemed like you were trying to 1. distract away from Eevee and 2. discredit me. The flimsiness of your argument really reinforced that impression. When I voted Eevee again, and once again you voted me immediately, that looks like a pattern. That's just where your best efforts led you, even though it looks scummy? Well the same thing for my not having townreads.
The vigor of your defense was in 1) it's immediacy, and 2) the vigor of your attack on me - and Day 1 based on supposition only.
You bring up faust as an example, but he was a mislynch, motivated in large part by you.
I guess I'm back to about 50% on you being scum, having been higher earlier today. You won't be lynched today, so I'm going back to vote: Eevee.
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I was going to put her at L-1 as well. yuma convinced me on the "no town reads" thing, and the case looks at lot stronger because of that. I think my problem with it came from thinking mafia should try to appear towny more than anything, but that resoning doesn't actually help much, and also doesn't work with my scum read.n mail-mi. I'll wait for her to respond of course
I am less concerned about what mafia would do.... because as mafia it is easy to get caught up in being mafia...
I am more concerned that I have a really hard time seeing a town player not have town reads... not make an attempt to separate out reads into two piles and trying get a grasp on the game. If you don't have town reads, you just have a bunch of scummy reads all in the same pile. That doens't seem like something town would do if they were scum hunting. It seems more like something scum would do when trying to get mislynches
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Did everyone else in the game besides me express having townreads? It doesn't seem like that to me.
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Yuma, what do you make of EFHW's point that she's the one who brought up town reads? That's the one thing giving me pause here.
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Did everyone else in the game besides me express having townreads? It doesn't seem like that to me.
No. No, I don't think so. Games are blurring together for me. This is the bad D1 good D2 one, right?
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Vote Count 2.7:
Voltaire (1): Walrus
Mail-mi (1): Teproc
Eevee (2): mail-mi, EFHW
EFHW (3): Yuma, Eevee, Voltaire
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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Yuma, what do you make of EFHW's point that she's the one who brought up town reads? That's the one thing giving me pause here.
It is something to think about. But I think it was interesting that she brought it up only the context of me... with ultimately her ending up with a completely scummyish null read on me.
I mean the argument is definitely there that if she brought it up she might become introspective and think... "hmmmm... I haven't had any town reads... maybe I should have one or two...." But I don't know if that has to happen...
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Hm. Hm indeed. i was thinking yuma v Efhw was tvt (town v town for Teproc) but now I'll have to go reread EFHW.
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Did everyone else in the game besides me express having townreads? It doesn't seem like that to me.
Off the top of my head, Eevee and Voltaire had a town read on me, Walrus mentioned a town v town fight. I don't think yumz expressed town reads day 2, but he did day 2 on Robz at least right ?
In any case... announcing intent to hammer.
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Ok, well I'm sorry I didn't find a way to avoid this. I am a town PR.
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Did everyone else in the game besides me express having townreads? It doesn't seem like that to me.
there is only one way to find out... I am going to go back and look.
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You're gonna have to be more specific than that, sorry.
It's just way to east to fakecllaim generic Pr
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Turns out I'm pretty bad at phoneposting as well...
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Yeah, if you're telling the truth EFHW we need you to actually claim your role. Not your result (if it doesn't make sense under the claiming discussion terms).
You understand we need to decide if you're lying scum.
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Yes I understand. I didn't specify b/c there seemed to be concern earlier about scum knowing the setup. So that concern is to the side now?
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Yes I understand. I didn't specify b/c there seemed to be concern earlier about scum knowing the setup. So that concern is to the side now?
Basically, I would want Teproc to hammer through a "generic PR claim" because there is no way to sort that out from mafia. If you claim, and are not counter-claimed, and we've outed the whole setup, will phooey for us but we were in the worst possible setup and did the worst possible thing, so sad face.
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That concern made sense for a "spontaneous" claim. It's not ideal, but an L-1 claim is quite different.
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ok, I'm the jailkeeper. I jailkept yuma N1, thinking he was either scum or valuable town.
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Did everyone else in the game besides me express having townreads? It doesn't seem like that to me.
Sorry no quotes cause that would get ugly. If you want to see evidence, let me know and I'll go pull it up.
Also please note that this isn't comprehensive. I just really skimmed through player's posts really quickly and when i saw town reads I put them in, so I am sure there were reads that I missed. The only player I went through in depth on every post was chairs, because I couldn't find anything. But the point is that chairs is the only player that didn't have a town read beside EFHW.
Eevee - townread on Robz
yuma - townread on Robz and eevee
mail-mi townreads on voltaire, eevee
walrus has townreads on voltaire, efhw and yuma
robz has townreads on people voting for him....
faust has townread on chairs and voltaire
voltaire expressed town reads on yuma, eevee, mail-mi
chairs also had no town reads. I will say this is scummy, because I think it is. But he also just did less posting and voted based more off reactions than scum hunting
EFHW has none
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Not counter-claiming EFHW. unvote for safety.
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So I see EFHW claimed.. fun stuff
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I noticed this (I'm scummy but not scum)
I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.
exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...
I have a choice?
You don't have a choice about my vote on you, but you have a choice to agree with me about my vote on you... Or you can disagree with it (and we may or may not get back into the conversation we were having)
I know your vote is mistaken, but I see why you have it there. Where do you stand on Walrus?
But Efhw claimed JK. Crap.
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Yuma and mail-mi, not counter-claiming EFHW? By which I mean can you please claim not-JK or JK? Can't see a reason not to do this. Note that cop and doctor will know if EFHW is lying as well, but should try not to claim their actual role.
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Yuma and mail-mi, not counter-claiming EFHW? By which I mean can you please claim not-JK or JK? Can't see a reason not to do this. Note that cop and doctor will know if EFHW is lying as well, but should try not to claim their actual role.
Not JK.
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I'm not counterclaiming. Unless someone does soon, I'm also going back to sleep. If this is true... sorry EFHW :/.
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Remove your vote before you leave, Teproc. If EFHW is telling the truth, we have a smaller lynch pool, so we do get some benefit out of this.
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My vote on mail-mi ? Not sure why, but I guess I can unvote for now.
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AND EFHW will have a shot at stopping the NK.
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Yuma and mail-mi, not counter-claiming EFHW? By which I mean can you please claim not-JK or JK? Can't see a reason not to do this. Note that cop and doctor will know if EFHW is lying as well, but should try not to claim their actual role.
Not.
AND we have an IC for the rest of the day (at least)
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My vote on mail-mi ? Not sure why, but I guess I can unvote for now.
God, it's late and I was going to go to bed before this happened. I thought you were on EFHW and yes, I know how silly that is. :P
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AND EFHW will have a shot at stopping the NK.
I guess we should mention that if there is a BPtownie out there, don't claim.
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So now we just need walrus and eevee....
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Players who still need to react to EFHW's JK claim: Walrus, Eevee.
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So now we just need walrus and eevee....
Speaking of walrus, where has he been? Lurk lurk lurk vote: walrus
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Vote Count 2.7:
Voltaire (1): Walrus
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (2): Yuma, Eevee
Walrus (1): Mail-mi
Not voting (2): Voltaire, Teproc
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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not a jk
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not a jk
hence unvote.
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This is exceptionally disappointing and rather deflating. I very much expected EFHW to claim and that we would get a counterclaim.
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There's still Walrus.
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with that very likely a terribad read, eevee is off to bed.
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There's still Walrus.
I know... and I am hopeful, but the odds have shrunken tremendously in the last 20 minutes...
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There's still Walrus.
I know... and I am hopeful, but the odds have shrunken tremendously in the last 20 minutes...
you won't.
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well walrus is here and posting in the thread...
So hopefully we will be getting an answer here soon.
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No counterclaim. See I thought she seemed towny.
Oh I'm lurking mail-mi? That's rich. But seriously, I'll be back to post more voluminously tomorrow.
I guess that makes EFHW fairly IC-ish. Well, I'd be down for a Eevee lynch; not as much for yuma.
vote: Eevee
Although I'm still not confident about Voltaire. It seems like he just waited for the attention on him to go away. But apparently there's not so much momentum on that train right now.
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blast... unvote
alright EFHW lead us. You now have my full confidence, maybe you can restore some back to me?
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well I will be back tomorrow and try and go at this with a completely fresh approach as I am now 0 for 2 between faust and EFHW.
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Well, do you still want Eevee or yuma, EFHW? I'd strongly consider yuma. I'd need to think a lot about Eevee. As for others...mail-mi is probably town, so is Teproc, at the very least I think they're bad lynches today, so that leaves...Walrus. So I guess my lynch pool today is Eevee, yuma, Walrus.
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This is pretty bad. My two strongest scum reads are the only two who were not on the wagon to lynch the Jailkeeper, so I'm kind of lost right now. I don't think I want to lynch yuma and Voltaire though. I'll reread Eevee and Walrus for now, see what that gives me.
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That's 3 on Eevee. L-1. No one hammer. State your intent first, then he can claim. You know the drill.
I do still support this lynch. I also noticed the disappearance of the Voltaire case and I think that still has promise. He's also the only one wanting a yuma lynch more than an Eevee one.
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Is it L-1 ? EFHW and Walrus are voting for Eevee... who else ?
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Ok... so deadline is Wednesday at 8. So that is approx 36 hours.
I am thinking at this point that if we have a BPT it might be best to have them claim. This is my thought...
If a BPT claims it doesn't change what mafia is going to do tonight. They are going to target the JK regardless of whether or not a BPT exists. EFHW is the kill target tonight, targeting anyone else is unthinkable.
The side effect is that IF we get to night3--we might not if we mislynch here and mislynch tomorrow--mafia won't target the BPT and will get a NK through. But we get another IC.
My main concern is that today we dont' have a lot of time left. And I greatly fear that we may end up needing to lynch someone w/o giving them time to claim and end up lynching our other PR. So I think claiming now is the better move.
I don't want to distract too much with this, because scum hunting is obviously a greater priority. But if we have a BPT that is one less person we can lynch today.
It hurts a little bit if we get to Night3 but we aren't guaranteed to get to night3 at this point. So I think we need to take the benefit now while we can.
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edit: or maybe we are close enough to an eevee lynch? In that case the BPT should stay quiet unless eevee is the BPT or claims the BPT...
but should eevee actually be our lynch?
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I disagree. What's to prevent scum to claim BPT now ? If we're in the JK vs Goon x2 scenario, they know no one will counterclaim. So BPT claim doesn't give an IC, at least not to me.
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I disagree. What's to prevent scum to claim BPT now ? If we're in the JK vs Goon x2 scenario, they know no one will counterclaim. So BPT claim doesn't give an IC, at least not to me.
This is true to an extent. But the moment that we lynch a roleblocker the game is up (unless the roleblocker claimed BPT....) So ugh... you are right.
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Ok:
I'll reread eevee.
started off with voting walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308935#msg308935) and continued (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309013#msg309013) that train of thought for quite a while (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309305#msg309305).
I do get townpoints (small, but there from his conversation (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309738#msg309738) with me and robz about the ethics of faking emotion. I think that mafia probably just ignores the situation and moves on. Town I think would be willing to have that discussion.
But even more so I find him townie for his stance on the late Robz wagon (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309841#msg309841). I find it townie because he very easily could have joined it. He had expressed some suspicions of robz earlier I think, or rather some things he didn't like about Robz's play (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309302#msg309302) and could have joined it without really raising an eyebrow.
As I mentioned before. I was not too happy with eevee disappearing at the end of day1. VLA was part of it, but he was back, but didn't ever catch up. That was disappointing.
He comes into the day in basically the same place that he was day1 with his reads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg311165#msg311165) with walrus at the top.
One point to note that others I think have done, but I'll repeat it anyways is that he said he would go back and reformulate his read on walrus (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg311354#msg311354) something he never did.
He was silent during the theory discussion. No read there for me.
And then his reads post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg312055#msg312055), which has prompted most of today's discussion. I am still not sure why. It looks like a standard reads post, posted because asked what his thoughts were. So I am not sure why a big deal was made out of it. I do agree, as I said before a lack of a refresher on Walrus... so it appears that he is basing his whole read on day1 stuff--early day1 stuff at that... but then again I have been doing the same with my town read on him. I am beginning to think I really need to rethink that read on walrus as well as all my reads this game.
Since then he voted for both mail-mi (for voting for everyone that could be a mislynch) and EFHW (for my case).
So I have some mixed results here. There is more to eevee than meets the eye I think when going back to look at him. He has some townie things to his credit and some scummy things. I dont' think I want to lynch him right here, right now when I still have time to look elsewhere. But come deadline, I think I could support the lynch.
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Cancel the red alert, I thought mail-mi was still on Eevee.
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Full game post count:
1. WalrusMcFishSr - 37
2. Chairs/teproc - 28+46= 74
4. Voltaire - 143
5. Yuma - 157
6. EFHW - 103
7. Mail-Mi - 42
8. Eevee - 48
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On phone now, will post more this evening, maybe earlier.
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The last part of yumas big quote: If Eevee flips scum (if we lynch him) then this I think is exactly what he says to the lynch. And according to EFHW I'm off Eevee, (I can't keep of votes to save my life) but intent to intent to hammer. I'll still have to reread him, do don't count that as official by any means.
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Ok, so here's where I'm at. Counting myself as town and EFHW as Jailkeeper, I'm looking at yuma, Voltaire, Eevee, Walrus and mail-mi. In these, we have 2 Mafia and 3 Town.
Rereading Eevee, I don't see him as scummy. Pretty much the only scummy thing he's done is not going back on his Walrus case like he said he would, and being absent at the end of day 1. I feel comfortable moving him out of my lynch pool for today.
I maintain a town read on Voltaire, but not for yuma. The fact that EFHW turned out to be JK made me rethink a lot of things, and specifically the fact that I was giving yuma town points for making sense. I still think yuma was more convincing and logical that EFHW actually, but obviously that doesn't mean that much. His idea about BPT claiming just now is also exactly what I would have done as Mafia in that situation. Floating the idea of BPT claiming to see if anyone is opposed, then have the Roleblocker claim. Now this is not conclusive in any way, shape or form, but it's enough for me to have yuma in my lynch pool.
mail-mi wasn't on the EFHW wagon, so that's something. Still very much willing to lynch him though.
Walrus I just reread as well and I'd put him at a decent chance to be scum. Day 1 he read scummy to me, and Eevee's case made sense. He's been behaving differently day 2, but that might just have been mafia hanging back while town is trying to lynch town.
So, in order of willingness to lynch :
1. mail-mi
2. Walrus
3. yuma
4. Eevee
5. Voltaire
6. EFHW
PPE : I'm guessing you're including pre-game posts ? My post count has slightly less posts for everyone. Here's how it looks like on day 2 (up to #752):
yuma : 53
Voltaire : 50
Teproc : 44
EFHW : 42
mail-mi: 21
Eevee : 15
Walrus : 13
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Mine is for the entire day. And I don't take out pre-game posts. Never have, never will.
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Damn Teproc makes the sense. Looking at his (real) post-count
yuma : 53
Voltaire : 50
Teproc : 44
EFHW : 42
mail-mi: 21
Eevee : 15
Walrus : 13
and taking into effect what we know (and my other reads)...wait, is this the game where I said yuma/Walrus scumteam? Yeah, I'll vote for either of them.
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Damn Teproc makes the sense. Looking at his (real) post-count
yuma : 53
Voltaire : 50
Teproc : 44
EFHW : 42
mail-mi: 21
Eevee : 15
Walrus : 13
and taking into effect what we know (and my other reads)...wait, is this the game where I said yuma/Walrus scumteam? Yeah, I'll vote for either of them.
Huh?
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Damn Teproc makes the sense. Looking at his (real) post-count
yuma : 53
Voltaire : 50
Teproc : 44
EFHW : 42
mail-mi: 21
Eevee : 15
Walrus : 13
and taking into effect what we know (and my other reads)...wait, is this the game where I said yuma/Walrus scumteam? Yeah, I'll vote for either of them.
Huh?
I like his post count better than yours because his removes pre-game posts (given the option between none and yours, of course I'll still take yours and I respect the time/effort you put into them). I know myself and EFHW are town, no doubt about it. Teproc is playing mega-pro-town to his own detriment if he's scum, I had a town read on chairs, so let's call Teproc town. I'm very comfortable with that, I have to make some assumptions. mail-mi is behaving like town!mail-mi behaves. Wagon-happy, at times anti-town, but town!mail-mi nonetheless. So that leaves three players, two of which are scum if I am at all right. And, casting my memory waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back to D1:
Or I could go with my gut. Walrus/yuma scumteam.
(though the context of this quote tells me I really REALLY need to re-read this thread knowing EFHW is town, so...off to do that!)
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The last part of yumas big quote: If Eevee flips scum (if we lynch him) then this I think is exactly what he says to the lynch.
mail-mi is right, if he is saying that at L-1 scum or the BPT would both claim BPT.
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How is teproc's play to his detriment if he is scum. I lean with you that he is more likely town than scum, but I think you and others are giving him far more credit than deserved based solely off chair's /outing from the game, which as I explained before I think chairs would have done regardless of his alignment.
I do think teproc is playing well. I disagree with some of his points and he isn't currently at the top of my list, but I dont' think we can just give him a pass and not look at him as potential scum. Doing so I think is dangerous. Same, but inverse with mail-mi.
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How is teproc's play to his detriment if he is scum. I lean with you that he is more likely town than scum, but I think you and others are giving him far more credit than deserved based solely off chair's /outing from the game, which as I explained before I think chairs would have done regardless of his alignment.
I do think teproc is playing well. I disagree with some of his points and he isn't currently at the top of my list, but I dont' think we can just give him a pass and not look at him as potential scum. Doing so I think is dangerous. Same, but inverse with mail-mi.
Teproc caught you fishing for the BPT.
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Maybe, of course. But it could definitely be that.
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How is teproc's play to his detriment if he is scum. I lean with you that he is more likely town than scum, but I think you and others are giving him far more credit than deserved based solely off chair's /outing from the game, which as I explained before I think chairs would have done regardless of his alignment.
I do think teproc is playing well. I disagree with some of his points and he isn't currently at the top of my list, but I dont' think we can just give him a pass and not look at him as potential scum. Doing so I think is dangerous. Same, but inverse with mail-mi.
Teproc caught you fishing for the BPT.
He didn't. I made a dumb mistake. But again, how is that to his detriment? You are being really cryptic here. You aren't an IC in this game. Use full sentences and explain things for us dumb folk.
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sorry, that probalby crossed the line of not talking about games...
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He didn't. I made a dumb mistake. But again, how is that to his detriment? You are being really cryptic here. You aren't an IC in this game. Use full sentences and explain things for us dumb folk.
Yes, that is another explanation. It's to his detriment if there is a BPT, Teproc is scum, you are town, he says nothing, the BPT claims based on your post, now scum knows who the BPT is! This is just one example. I am giving Teproc towncred for many reasons, all of which point in the same direction, not just chair's /out.
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sorry, that probalby crossed the line of not talking about games...
's fine, it's confusing.
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Also yuma, I do find your play of late to be more town than I did early on. You're started to get POEd by me, mostly. And of course I could be wrong. I realized I haven't re-read the thread since flips anyway (which is insanely horrible) so that's what I'm doing right now.
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He didn't. I made a dumb mistake. But again, how is that to his detriment? You are being really cryptic here. You aren't an IC in this game. Use full sentences and explain things for us dumb folk.
Yes, that is another explanation. It's to his detriment if there is a BPT, Teproc is scum, you are town, he says nothing, the BPT claims based on your post, now scum knows who the BPT is! This is just one example. I am giving Teproc towncred for many reasons, all of which point in the same direction, not just chair's /out.
Unless he is mafia who knows that a BPT doesn't exist... I am starting to get what you are saying, but I think it is dangerous to just hand out credit for those things. although I am kinda doing the same. I am not really considering teproc a lynch for today, but I am keeping him very much in the back of my mind because I do think it is a realistic possibility that he is in fact scum, especially as it appears other players appear to not be.
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If that's what you're thinking then I agree with you. Of course I'd consider lynching him under many scenarios tomorrow. But not today.
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Alright, I'm back with a serious post before boring work.
So the last thing I really mentioned is that I found EFHW vs. teproc to be town vs. town. Apparently I was half right about that at least. I'd like to be able to lump yuma into that category, but as I've said he seems to have an uncanny ability to make anybody look scummy. It could be that this is just a reflection of his diligence as town...I still don't think he's my preferred lynch tonight, but I'm not as confident in his towniness as I used to be. Although if he was jailkept, and we still had a nightkill, that reduces his possibility for scum by 50%, eh? But then wouldn't the less prominent scum naturally take the kill if he were theoretically paired with a high-profile player? So hmmmm.
To be honest I still like the Voltaire lynch best. I feel like his praise of Teproc is laying it on a bit thick (trying to butter up the new guy?), and he continues to not hit it home with the level of analysis I would expect from town!Volt. Teproc is behaving more like Voltaire than Voltaire is, as I see it, and I think Volt is almost sheeping that.
So anyway I could move my vote back there. But if that's not the consensus then Eevee is my second choice.
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Where do you land on yuma, Walrus? I see no conclusion there.
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I land on "not as confident as I used to be, but not my preferred lynch today."
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Well, do you still want Eevee or yuma, EFHW? I'd strongly consider yuma. I'd need to think a lot about Eevee. As for others...mail-mi is probably town, so is Teproc, at the very least I think they're bad lynches today, so that leaves...Walrus. So I guess my lynch pool today is Eevee, yuma, Walrus.
Walrus >> yuma >>>>>> Eevee for me.
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I am so cool lynching any one of yuma, Eevee, or Walrus now. Open to figuring out which of them it should be.
Why? On my re-read, when does yuma come out gunning for EFHW first? After calling yuma scummy for his L-1 on Robz and after pointing out how Eevee should know better about Robz. Walrus jumps right on that (sheeps yuma onto EFHW) after it happens.
Yuma lightly goes after Walrus early and seems to back off. Which struck me as strange at the time and I asked yuma about it. Of course Eevee tunnels (with good reason maybe! but tunnels nonetheless) Walrus all game. Eevee does seem to subtly push the idea of yuma being lynched.
Lotsa people use the "Voltaire isn't creative here, that's weird" line, including Eevee and Walrus.
So...because we are approaching deadline and I am willing to make assumptions...here are the options:
Walrus/yuma - Plausible.
Walrus/Eevee - Extreme bussing from Eevee, less plausible.
yuma/Eevee - Quite plausible.
So the common denominator is yuma. vote: yuma. Open to switching around here, as this is a sorta POE vote.
Because here's the thing, when Walrus went to L-1 it was WalrusMcFishSr (4): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust. That's probably town, unknown, probably town, town. OK hmm.
You three! One of you prove that you're town!
OH OH OH OH OH yuma also attacked faust right after faust called Walrus very scummy, with a case he realized didn't exist. So...yeah.
Sorry this post is a jumble.
OK I'm posting this now only half-way done with the re-read because it gives people more time to react before deadline, I'll add to it if I have to.
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Voltaire, where does the town read on mail-mi stem from?
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So...because we are approaching deadline and I am willing to make assumptions...here are the options:
Walrus/yuma - Plausible.
Walrus/Eevee - Extreme bussing from Eevee, less plausible.
yuma/Eevee - Quite plausible.
So the common denominator is yuma. vote: yuma. Open to switching around here, as this is a sorta POE vote.
This part of the post is exceptionally problematic. I am willing to make assumptions that Teproc and mail-mi are somewhat less likely to be mafia and thus probably not our lynches for today. But I think extending that assumption to say that they are certainly not mafia and thus the two have to exist in the set of three that you outline is just bad.
For me it is very plausible that Walrus could be partners with teproc or mail-mi or Eevee partners with teproc or mail-mi (beyond not looking at specifics, just looking at it generally).
So I am willing to say, yeah... let's not look at teproc or mail-mi today. But to then use that assumption to try and figure out scumteams looks like really shabby scum hunting.
Oh... and volt. I realize that you kinda got to me via PoE... but is there anything that you have to say about my actual play or posts that I can respond to? Voting w/o looking into that at all is really questionable as well.
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I really don't understand - you seem to be doing extensive rereads on everyone else and really considering all the angles.. and when it comes to mail-mi you just say "seems like his town self". What's the difference between his town and scum play? If I had to summarize mail-mi's play to this point without reading back, I'd say "has posted the least, has been willing to participate in any lynch imaginable". I wouldn't be surprised if mail-mi was willing to hammer TA or nkirbit if we ran them up to three votes!
Mail-mi, what are your reads in this game? I honestly have no clue.
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Voltaire, where does the town read on mail-mi stem from?
The meta aether.
It's a huge problem, and Teproc makes the points that his voting pattern is horrible. I mean, if mail-mi were anyone else I'd instavote him as scum lurking his way to the win. But this is how I've seen town mail-mi behave.
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Oh... and volt. I realize that you kinda got to me via PoE... but is there anything that you have to say about my actual play or posts that I can respond to? Voting w/o looking into that at all is really questionable as well.
I have had a lite scum read on you since early D1. Go and look at my D1 posts/vote on you. I can bring them up again here but I am like 2/3 of the way through D1 right now so like I said this doesn't cover everything.
Also:
I am willing to make assumptions that Teproc and mail-mi are somewhat less likely to be mafia and thus probably not our lynches for today. But I think extending that assumption to say that they are certainly not mafia and thus the two have to exist in the set of three that you outline is just bad.
Actually no, what I did was very logical given my assumptions. Like I said, it's Assumption Time! c'mon and grab your friends...
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Mail-mi, what are your reads in this game? I honestly have no clue.
Totally down with mail-mi needing to post a reads list.
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Actually no, what I did was very logical given my assumptions. Like I said, it's Assumption Time! c'mon and grab your friends...
No. It isn't. Not to the extent that you are. Because what you are doing is one assumption to build upon another one. Once you start doing that you get very, very shaky results...
Look, this is what you are doing.
Assumption1: mail-mi and teproc are less likely to be mafia than others
Assumption2: because of this, yuma, eevee and walrus are more likely to be mafia than others.
Assumption3: because of this there must be 2 mafia in yuma, eevee and walrus.
Assumption4: therefore I should use assumption3 to see which of the three options is the most likely to be a scum team.
You have to assume 4 different things before you arrive at a conclusion. That isn't good. I agree that mail-mi and teproc probably shouldn't be the lynch candidates for today, which means I should only be looking at Walrus, eevee and voltaire...
But I want to take in everything (including associations with mail-mi and teproc) in trying to figure out which one is mafia/partners. Not doing so excludes possibilities that are very real and doesn't result in incredibly shaky results.
do you see what I am saying? Make assumptions. But don't make so many that what you are left with is a bunch of nothing.
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I'm trying to address the case on me as I see it, feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood something.
-Lack of activity / disappearing at the end of day 1
Look, I know it sucks. I'm spinning further and further away from the top posted I once was. I did a similar disappearing act twice in MC. I know it's bad and very antitown, but there has been some stretches where I haven't gone to a computer for a week, really doesn't bode well with mafia playing. No excuse here, other than that the more active members of the community probably noticed how I wasn't posting anywhere else that the time, either. When I promised to catch up and never did, I got 1/3 through, then friends came over to a surprise visit, we ended up going out and when I sat down on the computer to finish the job the following afternoon/evening, I noticed that the thread had already been locked. I'm terrible with keeping deadlines in mind.
-Never expanding on the walrus-case
Well, it started from the discrepancy in his play I noticed (even though no one seemed to agree with it). I went back to reread the beginning of MC, and my impressions matched what I found. Now, I understand I said I'd revisit the case and make it prettier, but laziness and the realization that Walrus himself is demanding me to do it - saying I only have one concrete example to show got the better of me. Once I had told walrus what it was that I found suspicious, he obviously had the option of stopping doing it. I thought that doing the work to try to find more examples wouldn't be fruitful, as I kind of tipped my hand to him earlier. Starting to suspect him from early on obviously caused me to look at his posts through a different lens, but nothing he has done since has really made me reconsider the read - I scumhunt mainly through PoE, and while other people have plopped town towny content (like Teproc) or towny claims (like EFHW), Walrus hasn't really done any of that.
What else, I'm forgetting?
PPE4, I type slow
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Voltaire, where does the town read on mail-mi stem from?
The meta aether.
It's a huge problem, and Teproc makes the points that his voting pattern is horrible. I mean, if mail-mi were anyone else I'd instavote him as scum lurking his way to the win. But this is how I've seen town mail-mi behave.
i think i was the first to point out your "lack of creative scumhunting ideas" and also mail-mi's horrible voting record. I feel I'm not getting credit for the content I've posted, because scum somewhere is eager to get me mislynched.
What'st the meta eather though? I don't understand. Would scum-mailmi play somehow different? I'm by no means an express in reading mail-mi, but simply saying "he is town" while doing extensive rereads and a lot of work on determining other people feels incredibly scummy to me. If either of you flipped scum, that'd heighten my suspicion on the other person quite a bit.
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Actually, regardless of mail-mi's alignment Voltaire's unexplainable town read on him is very scummy.
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Looking for volt's day1 cases against me:
says lite scum read, but not why:
Where I am right now is actually having a lite scumread on yuma, but knowing I don't want to lynch him today. Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch. I'm trying to explore other areas instead.
explains it with a "gut read"
what is causing this read (even if it is lite)?
Honestly, I can't call it more than a "gut" read right now. Your play is different. The Robz thing was interesting, and on a scale of 0 to 78 with 78 being obvscum I've decided it was a 41c now. You seem to be more passive about your primary case than you usually are. You don't seem to be as dominating of a leading voice as I'm expecting. I think we can all agree why this read is "lite" at best.
he backs off from me and then wants to lynch me again because...
OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
why would you want to lynch me?
Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch.
Because my scum read on you has been growing all day and there comes a point where you think "why am I not lynching my top scum read again?"
It still might be a terrible idea.
and then a vote
And vote: yuma, Robz doesn't seem to be going through anyway.
A OMGUS vote by the way.
and then backs off me again when it gets zero support:
I think chairs (/out actions) and mail-mi (consistent with town meta) are town or close enough they should be off the table for today's lynch.
I have returned to thinking lynching yuma is a terrible idea today.
So volt I got nothing from this except that you had a gut feel about me and then OMGUS me.
By the way here is my case on voltaire day1 for remembering purposes... I still think it is a good one and sad that I abandoned it. Whole post here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg310237#msg310237) and a quote:
Voltaire has done nothing all day but push for and vote Robz. All based off stuff he "discovered" day1. I just looked through his posts and he has basically added nothing to the case since his original vote. This is the definition of tunneling and tunneling for a bad reason. I can't believe that town voltaire would think that his case is stronger than any other case out there... I just can't.
Robz, you had a vote on voltaire right? I think this is the way to go. Come join me. Anyone else interested? reread voltaire... all you will see is a bunch of posts about robz and how nothing else is better when the whole case on him was established day1 on somewhat flimsy premises.
Next looking at voltaire day2.
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Actually, regardless of mail-mi's alignment Voltaire's unexplainable town read on him is very scummy.
We've established that having no town reads is scummy (...except.. it wasn't). I don't know why scumVoltaire would do it, but scum gets tangled up in their web of lies sometimes, and I sure as hell don't see why townVoltaire would do it. That and the lack of "townvoltaire-like, supergreat contributions", and I'd actually be down with a Voltaire-lynch and that's something that I've said very rarely in the past.
Vote: Voltaire
The pool of people I'd like to see lynched today are mail-mi, Voltaire and walrus. Quite comfortable with the town read on teproc, and while yuma's attempts (one successful, one unsuccessful) to get two townies lynched already give him scum points, his play otherwise has been townier for me so would prefer to aforementioned three / would really only vote yuma if it was needed for self-preservation.
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Reading yuma's case on Voltaire from day 1 now, anticipating the day 2 version!
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Mail-mi, what are your reads in this game? I honestly have no clue.
Totally down with mail-mi needing to post a reads list when he gets home
FIFY
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voltaire day2:
The breadcrumb pickup (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg311141#msg311141) at start of day.
worth noting that he didn't immediately jump on me (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg311170#msg311170) like I anticipated he would. Maybe because I called him out on it before he did?
Lots of theory talk that I am not going to try and get a read from....
started the voting on EFHW day2 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg311362#msg311362) relying on somethign that I think was false and is obviously false now, her "mafia-esque" townread on Robz. Cause she never had a townread on Robz and my day1 case on EFHW which I had all but abandoned... Note that he also made this vote when he had two votes on him... maybe even three as EFHW puts him to L-1 at some point around that time...
Here is an interesting reads post earlish day2:
So, reads. Those too.
Strong town reads on:
Teproc - great strong start, is thinking like me, playing pro-town, plus when he was chairs all that stuff points towards town too
Small town reads on:
mail-mi - behaving like normal scummy mail-mi. If he's scum we'll POE him at some point, or he'll have to start playing and show his true colors.
Null reads on:
yuma - still some concerning stuff D1, though he did propose claiming first. Scum yuma did that for towncred in WWTWDP and it came back to bite him. I'd think scum!yuma would have learned his lesson that it's not worth it, and just casually support claiming after someone else floats it
Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.
Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.
Strong scum read on:
EFHW - see the post where I vote her for why.
Big things that I note is that his reads then are exactly the same as they are now... except EFHW is now obvtown.
But the main thing to point out is that he is saying that mail-mi will PoE himself if scum and or he will have to start playing and show his true colors. But mail-mi hasn't... so why still the credit... This reminds me of some other posts from voltaire day1 about mail-mi:
Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
The one time I hardcore tunneled you, I was scum.
And you're a town read with a D1 pass, btw, no further.
where he says that he gives mail-mi a D1 pass only... but looks like that pass has been extended despite nothing changing.
he basically sheeps his way onto my case on EFHW as his case on her was discredited...
And now he has his really bad assumption making (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg312898#msg312898) that raises my eyebrows... including a vote on me for reasons he says are in day1... but aren't except an unexplained gut read...
vote: voltaire that should be two votes with me and eevee on him. Walrus has voted there before.
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Resuming re-read...
Yuma keeps on defending Walrus. Like really defending Walrus. Like what if we lynch Walrus (which seemed possible at the time), yuma would have to know that this would make him look suspicious. I guess knock down the odds they're partners a little bit, but 2-man game you have to keep your partner and all that. If yuma is town he just doesn't like the case, if he's scum he's going for towncred maybe more than saving a partner?
At one point yuma says he wants to lynch (mail-mi, chairs, EFHW, eevee, faust) and not (voltaire, Robz, Walrus, yuma) on D1. Obviously some of this changed, and I added flips from my POV.
Yuma just really drives the faust mislynch. Which if he's scum he has to know is a mislynch and how it will look. So...is it because it's avoiding his partner? No, he could have shifted to Robz. He also drove EFHW today, he couldn't know she'd "flip" town today instead of tomorrow...where I am going with all of this is tiny tiny tiny town points for yuma about this.
Eevee comes out against a Robz lynch when it's at L-1, Robz says look off his wagon for scum (except chairsTeproc, so that's also yuma, Eevee, mail-mi [and EFHW who is now town]).
Fun post by yuma to review, I don't know what to make of it but everyone should read it! Click below!!!
Oh man and this one too!
Now the wagon on me... it's already late D1, and the wagons on Robz and Walrus don't seem to end in a lynch. Scum needs a viable lynch candidate that isn't them. yuma has been pushing me a long time, and is perceived as a good player and a driving force by town. Agreeing with him will not look too bad, even if he's wrong. I think scum is likely to jump this wagon now, and that makes mail-mi and chairs look quite suspicious.
This is a very good point, if you are town. I am very interested in seeing what players who I have townier reads on (robz, walrus and voltaire to an extent think of this case) because it is concerning when the only players agreeing with me are on the scummier side... one seemingly doing so for survival reasons...
So this all makes it confusing now because maybe mail-mi and Teproc DO need to go back in. In which case we're ****ed because I don't know how to vote and the deadline is soon-ish.
But the problem with Teproc is that he's the one who pointed out the vote-hopping chairs did. That argument just blew up with EFHW. So take Teproc out? Add in mail-mi? Consider mail-mi teams? Ugh.
Crap, I forgot chairs was a growing wagon when he /outed.
My ONE MISLYNCH FOREVER is also another argument for town!yuma now after faust's flip.
unvote.
So yeah.
Also let's remember this:
Vote Count 1.Final:
Eevee(1): Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Voltaire(2): EFHW,Walrus
Faust(5): Voltaire, Robz, Yuma, Chairs, Mail-mi
Aaaaaaaaaand...maybe Walrus is my top choice? I dunno, I want to hear from others.
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do you see what I am saying? Make assumptions. But don't make so many that what you are left with is a bunch of nothing.
Yes. But I also also have a scum read on you, Walrus, and Eevee, so it's not like this is leaving me going WOAH I GUESS LET'S QUICKLYNCH EFHW THEN GUYS.
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Actually, regardless of mail-mi's alignment Voltaire's unexplainable town read on him is very scummy.
Except like yuma says, what does scum hate to do? Give out free town reads.
Look, the few times I've seen scum mail-mi were HP where he was obvscum because he was hyper-eager to claim the least plausible thing, and then the lipoil tables 11-player Dominion one...he was mcmc's partner...actually how did we catch him there?
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Yep I still believe Volt to be the more promising lynch.
vote: Voltaire
That's L-1 right?
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So the one thing I still want to do is analyze Walrus more fully. I do have a townread on him that has existed since mid-day1. I need to question that and see if should be a townread. Because it is kinda a carryover from my views back then. That should get done after I get back from the store.
PPE: unvote now that walrus has voted...
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Oh wait woah I got at least two votes while I was re-reading the thread!
Well, maybe I'm being discredited. I'll be hyper-paranoid that's what's going on until I have a game where I'm hilariously wrong about everything.
In what universe does
PPE WTF
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Let me freakin' reply people!
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In what universe does it make sense for me to hand out crazy mad cred to mail-mi? If I'm scum, only two: the one where he's my partner, and the one where I'm shooting for town cred. In the second one, that's crazy obvious terrible play. In the first, sure, I guess, why not. Except the problem is there are also universes where I am town, like this one, and the reason he still gets a pass, yuma, is because it is not yet POE mail-mi time and so he hasn't had to start playing yet.
Also I made a post calling out three players and then all three voted for me. I win the OMGUS Olympics!
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I hardly think my vote counts for Olympic-level OMGUS. Minor league tops. I've had my vote on you all day and you're still my preferred lynch.
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The case against yuma (who is no longer my top scum read but still a scum read):
Subtly pushed bad claiming. Drove mislynches on faust and EFHW. POE. Aggressively counters cases against him in a way which implies his attacker is scum (EFHW pointed this out on D1, go find the post it's quite good).
The case against Eevee:
POE, lurking
The case against Walrus:
Wagon-happy, faust on/off when called out, lots of stuff actually.
vote: Walrus is where I want to be actually.
vote count please
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I hardly think my vote counts for Olympic-level OMGUS. Minor league tops. I've had my vote on you all day and you're still my preferred lynch.
No, it's all three of you collectively. :)
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At this point, I most want to hear from EFHW, Teproc, and mail-mi. My three voters are also my three suspects, so they're not making it any easier for me to figure out which of them is town.
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TA doesn't have forum access at the moment - he expects to have it tonight - and so asked in the speccy for one of us to post a votecount. So:
Vote Count 2.8:
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (2): Mail-mi, Voltaire
Voltaire (2): Eevee, Walrus
Not voting (2): Teproc, yuma
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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Well, things are happening. Catching up right now.
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To be honest I still like the Voltaire lynch best. I feel like his praise of Teproc is laying it on a bit thick (trying to butter up the new guy?), and he continues to not hit it home with the level of analysis I would expect from town!Volt. Teproc is behaving more like Voltaire than Voltaire is, as I see it, and I think Volt is almost sheeping that.
I don't like it either, FWIW. I don't know what to make of the fact that he's still doing it even though he got called out on it though. Seems too obvious to be scum to me.
POE post
I'm not a huge fan of trying to go for scum teams before we lynch scum, if only because it makes the scum team aware that they're being suspected together, and also because that kind of reasoning is dangerous. If your first scum read is wrong, your whole reasoning falls apart. For example, I was seeing EFHW/mail-mi scum team earlier which... yeah.
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Voltaire, you are dodging my question.
The case on me, as you put it, is PoE and lurking. Why doesn't that apply to mail-mi?
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Ok, so the case against Voltaire is :
1. Tunneling on Robz and flip-flopping on yuma day 1
2. Weird town-read on mail-mi
3. Faulty reasoning with the POE post
4. Not changing his reads at all during day 2 (except for EFHW)
5. Sheeping yuma on EFHW
1. Voltaire's day 1 behavior is somewhat scummy, I agree with that.
2. His town read on mail-mi I have a hard time evaluating, because it's based on meta, and I'm not familiar with the relevant games here. However, didn't you have a similar reaction to my case on mail-mi, yuma ? Also, I thought the idea was that mafia didn't want strong town reads, but Voltaire has two of them. Have you changed your mind entirely because EFHW turned out to be JK ?
3. I don't findhis POE post scummy. I think it's flawed, but still reads townie to me. I'm coming at it from a town-read on Voltaire though.
4 and 5 I don't get, but they were only mentioned by yuma so that's ok. If we're lynching people for sheeping yuma on EFHW... let's just say I don't look too good either.
All in all, I see why Voltaire is a viable lynch candidate, but I just don't buy it myself.
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I like the Walrus wagon though. I liked Eevee's case against him day 1 and I think his pretty radical change day 2 is an indicator of him going out of his way to avoid what Eevee called him out on day 1. I'm interested in what EFHW has to say, but I defeinitely intend to vote Walrus at this point.
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Just popping in to say I'm keeping up but haven't had time for serious thinking. I started a reread of Voltaire, I don't know how yuma does those so fast! I was willing to vote Voltaire Day 1 and I am leaning that way again now. But people keep mentioning Walrus, so need to look there too.
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Ok, so the case against Voltaire is :
Keep in mind that my big posts were kinda a comprehensive analysis of voltaire. Not everything htere I would include in the case, and some points are certainly stronger than others. So it doesn't really work to say Points X,Y I agree with but points A, B, C I don't so that is only 2/5 points so I think the case is weak. (which isn't exactly what you are doing, but in a way are.)
But I'll respond to some of your comments. Not quoting to prevent a giant quote tree...
Point 2. I do agree with voltaire about mail-mi, but not nearly as strongly as voltaire seems to be doing. I am saying "mail-mi probably shouldn't be lynched today". Voltaire is saying that "mail-mi shouldn't be lynched today and because of that the two scum must not include him." Do you see the difference? As for the point about EFHW.... Again, my point was never really about what I thought mafia would do. It was much more about what I thought town would never do. I just couldn't believe that town would go into a game and not have townreads. It still blows my mind. So as a result I felt that since I couldn't believe EFHW was town, she must be scum and I could see EFHW or anyone else really doing that as scum as a result. We have established that everyone else in this game has had town reads on someone. There are two scum in this game, so obviously scum is going to have town reads at this point.
3. Yeah, if you start with a town read on voltaire you are going to think what he does is town. It is hard to get passed that bias. In the same way if I start with a scum read on him, I am going to think what he is doing is scummy.
4. I just found it strange that his reads wouldn't change at all. That they have stayed the same. Maybe that is more a product of today, as frankly my reads have stayed very much the same as well. So it isn't really a scum point, but like I said, something I mentioned in my comperhensive analysis of him.
5. had more to do with voltaire creating a bad case on EFHW--and voting for her--but when the case was dissolved because it was bad, but when I created a case he had very little hesitation to join it again. So it isn't just that he sheeped, it was that he sheeped onto a person he suspected before for bad reasons. It looked like a convenient reason to go back to voting someone he had suspicion of before.
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I started a reread of Voltaire, I don't know how yuma does those so fast!
When you have a baby you have to type and read fast cause you never know when your window to be online is going to disappear!
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I like the Walrus wagon though. I liked Eevee's case against him day 1 and I think his pretty radical change day 2 is an indicator of him going out of his way to avoid what Eevee called him out on day 1. I'm interested in what EFHW has to say, but I defeinitely intend to vote Walrus at this point.
OK, more adherents to Eevee's case! Can SOMEBODY tell me why this damn case is so appealing? People keep referencing it and saying it's "very clear" and such. But then when I ask for clarification everybody goes silent. Eventually I just gave up; it wouldn't do to harp on that forever.
So let me try this again. Eevee's case is, so far as I can tell, related to my probing the town's interest about a mail-mi lynch. (I know there has been some other stuff brought against me too, like the faust on-off-on vote, but this was the crux of Eevee's argument.)
And then you say that my behavior has changed "radically" Day 2. Well if I had to say something it's that I've been less present D2 than D1, especially over the weekends. My real life schedule has a lot to do with that. But you suppose that I have changed my behavior intentionally to respond to Eevee's criticism.
This seems ridiculous to me. It suggests that either you have more examples of what Eevee was talking about, and then counterexamples from D2, in which case go ahead and post them. OR it's just that I did that one thing, one time, and then stopped? Not much to draw a conclusion from there.
If you've got your own reasons for finding me scummy, fine. But I'm tired of people referencing Eevee's case off-hand without bringing anything else to the table.
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Alright time to look at walrus and as he said, specifically the points brought up against him.
My vote on him was the first one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308760#msg308760) for his unvoting faust. I didn't find him scummy for revoting though. I felt that scum wouldn't do that. Why? Because scum doesn't want to look like they are trying to be townie. Yes, there is an argument that scum would want to try and appeal to town, but that seems like a horrible way to do it. This is where my town read started.
chairs then had a vote for this reason (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309068#msg309068) although it took him forever and a half to spit it out. He basically says that walrus called out his own vote on robz as a wagon building attempt.
faust then votes him for a handful of things (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309286#msg309286) such as snarky comments, buddying me, and not understanding walrus's read on voltaire. This vote put him to L-1.
Mail-mi votes for walrus for being less jokey?
eevee votes for him pleasing the crowd (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308935#msg308935)
I was then asked where I stood on Walrus and said this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309562#msg309562) which basically said that the three votes on him weren't very good, concluding with this:
So I think I actually just talked myself into having walrus as my biggest town read (finally a strong read). And I think my lynch pool is everyone currently voting for Walrus+EFHW (who was strongly considering it). I think it is very likely that there is at least one scum here looking for the "easier mislynch"
For clarity that is mail-mi, chairs, EFHW, eevee, faust (so yeah, my lynch pool is five people) I won't be lynching voltaire, Robz, Walrus or yuma today barring something crazy happening.
And not much has changed with me in regard to walrus, but now I want to go back, because where this stands right now. I dont' like the case. It doesn't have anything that I think is compelling. So now I need to go back and look for myself and see if there is anything compelling worth being suspicious about. I am really going to try and have an open mind...
And I'll do another post as this is already getting big.
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Voltaire, you are dodging my question.
The case on me, as you put it, is PoE and lurking. Why doesn't that apply to mail-mi?
It does! But you and mail-mi do not have the same metas. Surely you can see this.
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Yuma, your most recent post in reply to Teproc basically says you started with a scum read on me, so you find me scummy. Is there actually anything I can reply to there, or is your case just confirmation bias?
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I also think everyone must be ignoring my second re-read post.
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By Eevee's case, I mean that on day 1 :
You voted against faust for his theory talk, which you saw as possibly rolefishing. You then unvoted when you realized he had the same plan in another game, but still expressed suspicion on faust. Yuma called you out on that, and you revoted for faust.
This is very scummy in that it seems you care way too much about what town thinks of you. The way Eevee said it, you're trying to please the crowd, which I agreed/agree with. He also pointed out that you had posts where you were asking for approval for votes : this is the mail-mi thing you're referring to.
He then had this post, which I'm including because you omitted it last time you adressed this :
In a stretch of boredom I actually went ahead and read the first 20 posts of Walrus in MC. He was definitely very jokey like he was here (I've never agreed with finding smileys or humor scummy, I recall that being at least a part of someone's reason for voting for him here though), but I don't see any of the hesitation he is showing here. Just votes with reasons provided, no asking for permissions of validations. I'm happy with my Walrus-vote.
Now his case is :
1) You are trying to please the crowd
2) This is not how you've played as town
This is, I think, a pretty strong case. Not amazing, but strong.
Now what I mean when I say you've changed your attitude is not only that you posted less. It's that you posted less content, and when you did you were very careful not to do these things. You might see this as "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario, and that's fair, but what I'm saying is that the fact that you've stopped doing these things Eevee was talking about does not mean his case in invalid.
On day 2, the only thing you've done is continuing your scum read on Voltaire and calling EFHW/Me town vs town. Oh, and asking for Eevee to clarify his case, then suspecting him for not doing so (this is fair).
I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
This was the quote that stuck out most in my mind from the conclusion of D1. I'll go back and reread more carefully later after work, but I'm gonna vote: Voltaire initially as well.
Once she turned out JK, you went all "I told you so"
No counterclaim. See I thought she seemed towny.
Alright, I'm back with a serious post before boring work.
So the last thing I really mentioned is that I found EFHW vs. teproc to be town vs. town. Apparently I was half right about that at least.
I don't think this case is foolproof in any way. I just think you're one of the most likely to be scum, partly by POE, partly because of Eevee's case, partly because you've been lurking and tunneling on Voltaire day 2, while staying safely out of the EFHW discussion (you didnd't vote for her, but you didn't defend here either, which is a nice place for scum to be).
PPE : 4 unread replies
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Teproc makes the sense! Teproc makes the sense.
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Teproc makes the sense! Teproc makes the sense.
Ok, seriously, would scum be THAT obvious about buddying me ? This is the 4th time now, after he's been called out for doing that specifically. Sure, he might do this precisely to get me to this conclusion, but it' hasn't been working so far on most of you, so I don't think that's it.
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Theoretical mail-mi teams, btw:
Eevee: possible but unlikely. Eevee defends mail-mi in a roundabout way at times, but also would be trying to get me lynched for not suspecting his partner...that would be convoluted but possible, I suppose.
yuma: Totally possible. Don't think there's been any interaction.
Walrus: Unlikely, mail-mi was all over Walrus, right? On the L-1 wagon? *checks* Yes, he was.
So that's two unlikely and one plausible. I'm still fine not voting for mail-mi today.
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I don't see much of a reason not to do this at this point, since EFHW is he only person not voting for either Voltaire or Walrus (yuma isn't either, but I think his position is clear). vote: Walrus
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Timeline:
Voltaire states some (controversial to some) town reads, which people agree is the last thing mafia wants to do
Voltaire identifies the three likeliest candidates to contain the two mafia
All those candidates make big cases on Voltaire and attack his reasoning
I just can't see this as anything but me correctly pigeonholing mafia from where I'm sitting. Because if I'm mistaken town, why go after me like this?
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In case it wasn't clear : this is L-1, don't hammer without announcing intent and everything.
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We definitely need to give EFHW time to re-read Walrus and for me to ask any questions she might have of me, if she still wants to vote me. Same for Walrus, actually.
Not that you did anything wrong, Teproc, but just in case someone wants to switch wagons. Stating the obvious and all that.
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Teproc makes the sense! Teproc makes the sense.
Ok, seriously, would scum be THAT obvious about buddying me ? This is the 4th time now, after he's been called out for doing that specifically. Sure, he might do this precisely to get me to this conclusion, but it' hasn't been working so far on most of you, so I don't think that's it.
In all seriousness, this is what I mean when I say if Teproc is scum, he seems to be hurting his own wincon, so I don't want to lynch him. Because he's taking the words right out of my mouth, thinking like me, etc. So assuming I am not the worst town player in the universe (and I do not think that I am), we seem to be working towards the same goal. This is why I am a-ok assuming Teproc as town for now.
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I am not behind a Walrus lynch today. I read Teproc's post I just don't think there is anything there.
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I am not behind a Walrus lynch today. I read Teproc's post I just don't think there is anything there.
Eevee or yuma?
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I'm also starting to lean away from the Voltaire lynch. He has done some scummy things, especially Day 1, but this level of high energy would be very hard for scum to maintain. We still have 28 hours, let's not rush into anything.
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But Voltaire, can you say again why you thought Robz was so scummy? Your sticking like glue to him was definitely one of the scummier things about Day 1.
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I was interrupted during my read of walrus... so I'll start continuing that and then catch up on the posts that have come in... actually reverse that order.
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Yuma, your most recent post in reply to Teproc basically says you started with a scum read on me, so you find me scummy. Is there actually anything I can reply to there, or is your case just confirmation bias?
I hope it isn't confirmation bias. I really do. I try to eliminate that as much as I can. but it is there and I have to try and deal with it. So I am sure there might be something you can say, but I honestly have no idea what it would be for me to start thinking you are more likely to be town...
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I would like to rule out Teproc as a lynch for today, b/c, as Voltaire pointed out more than once, he has done several pro-town things that would be against the scum wincon. But he has recently made two scummy votes - the one on me and now a weak case and vote on Walrus. I'm really having trouble understanding Teproc's vote on Walrus. I know I looked scummy, but I don't think he does.
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and Teproc put Walrus at L-1 unnecessarily, in derphammer territory. If yuma's stated intent to vote works for the Voltaire vote, why not do the same with this vote on Walrus?
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But Voltaire, can you say again why you thought Robz was so scummy? Your sticking like glue to him was definitely one of the scummier things about Day 1.
So a couple ways to answer this:
1. Obviously it looks terrible in retrospect. And I agree it was terrible, and mea culpa, and all that. I don't think I really said this in-thread because saying it isn't terribly helpful.
2. I found the case on Robz to be better than the other cases presented. So there was a wagon on Walrus, which I still find compelling (obviously) and found good at the time (you'll note I also resisted it, I maintain there is nothing scummy about shifting reads). There was a wagon on chairs, which I think I liked at the time (god I just re-read the thread...it looked good on a re-read, actually) but then chairs did the /out and I fundamentally didn't feel comfortable lynching someone for playing from their phone, which is all a chairs lynch would have been. (Obviously there's Teproc's play today but I'm talking about D1 here). So then there was a case on you, which I also liked at the time. Yuma's reasons, and all that, which I enjoy how yuma is now pretending were terrible and disowning and trying to distance himself from...seriously! I myself was one of the wagons...I think that's all of them. Other than faust himself, who I helped quickhammer.
3. So that's everyone else. Why Robz? Because in a game with few reads, a Robz vote is not a bad place to be was my thinking. And because I found "I don't have to do anything and my wagon will go away" to be a manifestly easy statement for scum or town to make, and I really didn't see Robz playing, and my overarching D1 philosophy is that scum will tend to be in the lurkers (not necessarily literally the lurkiest) and I found all of this to be present in Robz to some degree. And I never got concerned about who was voting with me, so I kept staying.
4. I also thought his "I refuse to claim" likely to be a scum gambit.
So that's a lot of words. Short version: it was clearly bad now, at the time I thought it fine, looking back it wasn't my finest moment.
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Ok...
42 posts. obviously on the lower end of things. So lurking is an issue, but not so egregiously more so than mail-mi or eevee or chairs before teproc subbed in.
For reference I am going to count all the posts here that have some sort of jokiness to them (as it appears that this was something brought up about him) one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308600#msg308600), two (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308637#msg308637), three (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.0;all), four (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308999#msg308999), five (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.0;all), six (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309052#msg309052), seven (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.0;all), eight (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309319#msg309319), nine (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg309751#msg309751)... this is starting to get taxing. I think it would be easier to count the posts that he didn't joke in. So I'll leave that as it is and say that this argument was bad and mail-mi and I think eevee? were bad for making it.
So walrus' non-jokey stuff:
Starts with a vote on faust (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308600#msg308600) early for some theory stuff.
I call him out when he then unvotes (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308636#msg308636) and says his suspicion is still there. He then revotes (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308775#msg308775).
I have said above that I found this townie... and I have to say I still do. It just doens't look like a move that scum would make.
very early on in the game he starts giving out reads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308855#msg308855) coming from my experiences in my first game, this wasnt' something I did as scum and it is something hard to do as scum. Yes, walrus has had 1.5 games already as town to get his feet wet and there could be a vet whispering in his ear in the pregame, but it is still hard to pull of. He votes Robz here.
He responds to queries throughout and has queries of his own.
He then sheeps my vote on EFHW (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9669.msg308999#msg308999) and in this post wonders if anyone would be up for a mail-mi lynch. He gets flack for this later. But how is this any different than say this question?
OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
He is then back on the Robz wagon, again to a L-1 vote. I see why he did this. It does make me raise my eyebrows a bit as I thought robz was more likely to be town there and it has been confirmed, but isnt' a big deal to me. and moved to a chairs lynch. I think it is very much worth noting that walrus never went for the faust wagon. I think newbie scum moves to the faust wagon at its height and gets on it. Walrus does the opposite here... he stays away from it. Well... maybe not. When I was newbie scum I tried to stay away from the day1 lynches and didn't get close to anyone at L-1. But walrus obviously isn't doing this as he had done it with Robz... So I think town points go to walrus for staying away from the faust wagon. although at the end (after faust's post that garnished most of our attention) he does say he is willing to vote and hammer him. So maybe that negates the town read from it
He has posted little day2. Votes on voltaire and eevee and again avoids the coming lynch of EFHW... a scum trend maybe? Ordoes scum jump on it and push it through to make sure he or a partner isn't lynched. I still lean toward walrus being town in this scenario...
So, honestly I still think walrus is town.
I would put voltaire as my prefered lynched, followed by eevee and then walrus.
I do wonder if we should start considering mail-mi and teproc more fully. EFHW how do you feel about these two?
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and Teproc put Walrus at L-1 unnecessarily, in derphammer territory. If yuma's stated intent to vote works for the Voltaire vote, why not do the same with this vote on Walrus?
Because they're different players?
What don't you like about the Walrus case? I find it reasonable. I mean scum is playing well here, whoever they are, so I don't think we're going to find any super-slam-dunk cases.
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Fine, I'll unvote. Unless mail-mi suddenly becomes a viable lynch, consider my vote to be on Walrus though.
I understand why you're not convinced EFHW. I'm mostly coming at this from a POE perspective, so I'm aware that the case against Walrus isn't incredibly strong. I'm pushing it because I believe Voltaire would be a mislynch.
Speaking of pushing on Walrus, I took a look at his voting record :
- #62/70/86 : The whole vote/unvote/vote thing with faust
- #109 : Votes Robz (3) for poor contributions and posting only when called out on lurking
- #144 : Votes EFHW (2), explicitely sheeping yuma. He goes on to explain better, stating that EFHW's posts have no content and doesn't like that she's accusing him. He also points to a EFHW/mail-mi scumteam
- #297 : Votes Robz again (L-1). Doesn't like Robz daring people to vote for him and finds Robz's vote on chairs "interesting"
- #329 : Votes chairs (3), for empty posts and calls his "lynch mafia not scum" a platitude (it was about voting for faust rather than Robz)
- #473 : Votes Voltaire (L-1) : Finds him uncharacteristically unhelpful
Day 2
- #516 : Votes Voltaire (2), for reasons I don't entirely understand (beside the day 1 thing) :
I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
This was the quote that stuck out most in my mind from the conclusion of D1. I'll go back and reread more carefully later after work, but I'm gonna vote: Voltaire initially as well.
- #748 : Votes Eevee (2). No reasoning given, so I guess he was sheeping EFHW (now IC) ?
- #809 : Votes Voltaire (L-1) : No reasoning, so presumably the same reasons as before + yuma's case ?
That's three L-1 votes, two of them on Voltaire. The first one I find quite weak, the second one I can see a little more.
Mostly, there's a lot of sheeping there.
PPE : 8 unread posts.
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Vote Count 2.yuma
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (3): Mail-mi, Voltaire
Voltaire (2): Eevee, Walrus
Not voting (2): yuma, teproc
I am ready and willing to vote for voltaire, but again wonder about teproc and mail-mi.
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Walrus did go for the faust wagon. He stated intent to hammer but mail-mi beat him to it.
Oof, that last faust post was a doozy wasn't it? Certainly it dispels some reservations I had about lynching him.
I could hammer or mail-mi could; I don't care.
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Thank you Teproc. This is the most coherently I've seen the case on me expressed yet.
By Eevee's case, I mean that on day 1 :
You voted against faust for his theory talk, which you saw as possibly rolefishing. You then unvoted when you realized he had the same plan in another game, but still expressed suspicion on faust. Yuma called you out on that, and you revoted for faust.
This is very scummy in that it seems you care way too much about what town thinks of you. The way Eevee said it, you're trying to please the crowd, which I agreed/agree with.
Well, as I explained, I reflexively took my vote off, then put it back on when I realized I didn't have a better place to put it. I would think that if I were trying to please the crowd and blend in, I wouldn't have revoted, but maybe you disagree.
He also pointed out that you had posts where you were asking for approval for votes : this is the mail-mi thing you're referring to.
Post. I had one post where I did that, so far as I can tell. And even that I think makes it sound worse than it actually was.
He then had this post, which I'm including because you omitted it last time you adressed this :
In a stretch of boredom I actually went ahead and read the first 20 posts of Walrus in MC. He was definitely very jokey like he was here (I've never agreed with finding smileys or humor scummy, I recall that being at least a part of someone's reason for voting for him here though), but I don't see any of the hesitation he is showing here. Just votes with reasons provided, no asking for permissions of validations. I'm happy with my Walrus-vote.
Now his case is :
1) You are trying to please the crowd
2) This is not how you've played as town
This is, I think, a pretty strong case. Not amazing, but strong.
First of all, I think it's a little odd that Eevee went through that effort in a fit of "boredom", just to further a scum read on me. But hey, I'm a new player, so it is understandable he'd want to do some research.
But I think it is a bit silly. This is what, only my third game of Mafia, plus a smattering of other forum games. I'm still establishing a meta, and in particular you wouldn't expect my first game to be indicative of my overall playstyle. And besides, I don't think I've been really acting so differently. Do you think so? Do you even know what acting differently would be for me?
Now what I mean when I say you've changed your attitude is not only that you posted less. It's that you posted less content, and when you did you were very careful not to do these things. You might see this as "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario, and that's fair, but what I'm saying is that the fact that you've stopped doing these things Eevee was talking about does not mean his case in invalid.
Very careful not to do what things exactly? I mean I have posted less, that I freely admit and I do feel bad about. But I don't think you can look at a reduced amount of phone post-y content and conclude that I've been specifically avoiding X or Y.
On day 2, the only thing you've done is continuing your scum read on Voltaire and calling EFHW/Me town vs town. Oh, and asking for Eevee to clarify his case, then suspecting him for not doing so (this is fair).
I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
This was the quote that stuck out most in my mind from the conclusion of D1. I'll go back and reread more carefully later after work, but I'm gonna vote: Voltaire initially as well.
You're right, my reads have been more focused D2 than D1. I think this is to be expected considering that the body of evidence we have to draw from has grown.
Once she turned out JK, you went all "I told you so"
No counterclaim. See I thought she seemed towny.
Alright, I'm back with a serious post before boring work.
So the last thing I really mentioned is that I found EFHW vs. teproc to be town vs. town. Apparently I was half right about that at least.
Haha, you're right, I was happy about my correct assessment and I was having a bit of fun.
I don't think this case is foolproof in any way. I just think you're one of the most likely to be scum, partly by POE, partly because of Eevee's case, partly because you've been lurking and tunneling on Voltaire day 2, while staying safely out of the EFHW discussion (you didnd't vote for her, but you didn't defend here either, which is a nice place for scum to be).
PPE : 4 unread replies
Well, I don't think that's exactly fair. I didn't vote for her and I said that the discussion struck me as town vs. town. That counts as a defense so far as I'm concerned. Sure it wasn't a rollicking Atticus Finch defense, but did you really expect one? She was still on the nullish side at that point for me. I ascribed some town points to her behavior...that's all, but it's not as if I just sat on the sidelines.
Teproc makes the sense! Teproc makes the sense.
Ok, seriously, would scum be THAT obvious about buddying me ? This is the 4th time now, after he's been called out for doing that specifically. Sure, he might do this precisely to get me to this conclusion, but it' hasn't been working so far on most of you, so I don't think that's it.
I think it's absolutely something scum!Volt would do. When called out about something, there are a few ways to react. One is to quietly stop doing it. Another is to embrace the behavior, sometimes to the point even of comedic excess. I believe that Voltaire could be pursuing the latter option here.
PPE: 10ish
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Walrus did go for the faust wagon. He stated intent to hammer but mail-mi beat him to it.
Oof, that last faust post was a doozy wasn't it? Certainly it dispels some reservations I had about lynching him.
I could hammer or mail-mi could; I don't care.
Please read the whole of my posts... this is like the fourth time you have not read the whole thing and made yourself look rather foolish... (assuming you are talking to me here....)
So I think town points go to walrus for staying away from the faust wagon. although at the end (after faust's post that garnished most of our attention) he does say he is willing to vote and hammer him. So maybe that negates the town read from it
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What do we make of Robz's statement that scum were likely to stay away from his wagon except for chairs? I personally think it's reasonable (full disclosure if you have a 10-second memory: I voted for Robz), we know he's town now. What he was saying is:
Eevee, Mail-mi, EFHW, yuma, chairs/Teproc
are more likely to be scum.
Thoughts? Dying doesn't make townies have better reads, but I can see the logic in the thought process. Of course EFHW was off his wagon and is town.
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Ok, sorry about that. To be fair, at least one of the times I've misread you is because you used "today" meaning gameday, and I took it as meaning actual day. I really did read too fast here, but I think I've mostly misunderstood you on less obvious points than this.
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Walrus did go for the faust wagon. He stated intent to hammer but mail-mi beat him to it.
Oof, that last faust post was a doozy wasn't it? Certainly it dispels some reservations I had about lynching him.
I could hammer or mail-mi could; I don't care.
Please read the whole of my posts... this is like the fourth time you have not read the whole thing and made yourself look rather foolish... (assuming you are talking to me here....)
So I think town points go to walrus for staying away from the faust wagon. although at the end (after faust's post that garnished most of our attention) he does say he is willing to vote and hammer him. So maybe that negates the town read from it
That doesn't make Teproc look foolish, that makes you (yuma) appear to be admitting to posting a giant wall of words and reach a "meh."
I am keenly aware you really want us to open up the lynch pool. Finishing my re-read knocked you to the bottom of my scum reads but you could be worried because you and your partner still seem to be in it.
*Or you could be town making sure we explore all options, I know that.
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fine. i am done doing rereads... and someone doesn't like me doing them... vote: voltaire. someone else can figure out if mail-mi and teproc are scum...
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My point, yuma, is not that it's bad of you to post re-reads, but that you seem to be reaching to make sure Teproc can be seen as scummy by the rest of us. And it seems odd for you to call him "foolish" instead of just saying "Actually I addressed this here..."
A small thing, but it fits a pattern.
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foolish means foolish... scummy means scummy. when i want to say one i'll say it. I don't think teproc is scummy for not reading my posts carefully, i am annoyed that i have to go back and quote something for him that is obvioulsy there...
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Looking at other instances of Walrus asking for town's opinion, we have this.
If this is hypothetical "theory talk" it sounds pretty concrete to me. What do you mean by "the" BP? Does this strike anyone else as odd?
Not to say my suspicions are completely allayed. That post count shows what I was talking about: Is it not somewhat surprising to see faust top the chart so emphatically like that? I know it's just the beginning of the day, and things will surely stabilize in a couple RL days (I expect my relative post count to drop for example haha), but still it raised an eyebrow from me.
This is a bit less than I remembered to be honest. Still, it's not only the mail-mi thing.
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So here's a thing. The final D1 vote count.
Eevee(1): Faust
WalrusMcFishSr (1): Eevee
Voltaire(2): EFHW,Walrus
Faust(5): Voltaire, Robz, Yuma, Chairs, Mail-mi
Unless the scum team is Eevee/Walrus (not crazy!) then at least one scum participated in the faust lynch. Not sure what that says though.
Basically I want to make sure we come at this from all angles. Prior to a lynch I want mail-mi's reads (which he's said he'll post tonight) and anything else EFHW wants to say. I have not seen anything to knock me off my "vote for 2 of yuma/Walrus/Eevee" as of right now.
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again... how is that any different than what voltaire did?
OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
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I do find Voltaire's attitude at the end of day 1 scummy, as I said earlier. So no, it's not really different.
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again... how is that any different than what voltaire did?
OK, well then. Anybody else just want to lynch yuma today?
Voltaire/Walrus scumteam!
Seriously though, I think "permission asking" is a newbie scum trait that is also present in town. So if you see someone doing it, it should raise their odds of being scum but not be the entire case, if that makes sense. Kinda like yuma's whole "scum doesn't like town reads," which regardless of him being wrong about EFHW and regardless of yuma's alignment, is correct I think.
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I do find Voltaire's attitude at the end of day 1 scummy, as I said earlier. So no, it's not really different.
What about my attitude was scummy? This may have already been stated, I just don't remember hearing it phrased this way.
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The big thing is staying on Robz while expressing suspicions of pretty much everyone else, yet not voting for him. I noted the fact that you were saying Walrus was scummy during his wagon, yet never seemed to wan to jump on it. All of this isn't helped by the fact that Robz flipped town of course.
The quote yuma posted here is also pretty scummy considering you spent the whole day saying that yuma should never be lynched day 1.
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yet not voting for them*
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The big thing is staying on Robz while expressing suspicions of pretty much everyone else, yet not voting for him. I noted the fact that you were saying Walrus was scummy during his wagon, yet never seemed to wan to jump on it. All of this isn't helped by the fact that Robz flipped town of course.
The quote yuma posted here is also pretty scummy considering you spent the whole day saying that yuma should never be lynched day 1.
Yeah, and then I kinda snapped. Though I feel much better about it, considering where we are now.
Note also I'm trying to get Walrus lynched today.
Note that if I'm scum, I know Robz is going to flip town if I get him lynched.
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Had to work for a while. Reading what has been posted since I left! Hopefully peeps are still around.
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Voltaire, you are dodging my question.
The case on me, as you put it, is PoE and lurking. Why doesn't that apply to mail-mi?
It does! But you and mail-mi do not have the same metas. Surely you can see this.
All I can see is you dodging the question for.. what, the fifth time? I can't for the life of me understand why you are withholding this information. Let me offer a hypothesis: it's because you are scum and inventing reads, and actually have no reasons. Am I correct?
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Voltaire, you are dodging my question.
The case on me, as you put it, is PoE and lurking. Why doesn't that apply to mail-mi?
It does! But you and mail-mi do not have the same metas. Surely you can see this.
All I can see is you dodging the question for.. what, the fifth time? I can't for the life of me understand why you are withholding this information. Let me offer a hypothesis: it's because you are scum and inventing reads, and actually have no reasons. Am I correct?
No, not at all! In fact, I can't even understand how I didn't answer your question. I have explained my read on mail-mi many times. Can you try re-phrasing it, on the chance we're both town and talking past each other?
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Teproc laying out my thoughts on Walrus better than I ever could have. Glad someone understood what I meant! Can't help but feel even more strongly about the towniness of Teproc.
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Theoretical mail-mi teams, btw:
Eevee: possible but unlikely. Eevee defends mail-mi in a roundabout way at times, but also would be trying to get me lynched for not suspecting his partner...that would be convoluted but possible, I suppose.
yuma: Totally possible. Don't think there's been any interaction.
Walrus: Unlikely, mail-mi was all over Walrus, right? On the L-1 wagon? *checks* Yes, he was.
So that's two unlikely and one plausible. I'm still fine not voting for mail-mi today.
Finding possible partners for mail-mi should be interesting, as he has been so so so wagon-happy. Might even be one of the most informational lynches?
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Finding possible partners for mail-mi should be interesting, as he has been so so so wagon-happy. Might even be one of the most informational lynches?
I don't see that at all. For me, it barely confirms anything since I currently think mail-mi is town. My two most "informational" lynches would be you or Walrus - but I'm not lynching just for information.
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I never made any arguments about walrus's jokes being scummy (I don't think I did anyways), I think I even criticized someone (probably mailmi) for that part in their case. I do remember congratulating walrus on one particularly funny one, though!
Generally I disagree with jokingness being a scum tell.
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Can someone on the Voltaire wagon please unvote for the time being?
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unvote
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Finding possible partners for mail-mi should be interesting, as he has been so so so wagon-happy. Might even be one of the most informational lynches?
I don't see that at all. For me, it barely confirms anything since I currently think mail-mi is town. My two most "informational" lynches would be you or Walrus - but I'm not lynching just for information.
Ye, we obviously don't want to lynch for information today. I was just thinking out loud.
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Can someone on the Voltaire wagon please unvote for the time being?
We have only a day, and no ones gonna derphammer. BTW, if you hammer without intent you are claiming scum.
Still on phone, but lynch list:
Walrus
Eevee
Voltaire.
I don't think we're going to lynch outside of these 3 and frankly I'm okay with that.
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Theoretical mail-mi teams, btw:
Eevee: possible but unlikely. Eevee defends mail-mi in a roundabout way at times, but also would be trying to get me lynched for not suspecting his partner...that would be convoluted but possible, I suppose.
yuma: Totally possible. Don't think there's been any interaction.
Walrus: Unlikely, mail-mi was all over Walrus, right? On the L-1 wagon? *checks* Yes, he was.
So that's two unlikely and one plausible. I'm still fine not voting for mail-mi today.
Finding possible partners for mail-mi should be interesting, as he has been so so so wagon-happy. Might even be one of the most informational lynches?
what information would you get out of his flip?
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Why not yuma, mail-mi?
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Voltaire, you are dodging my question.
The case on me, as you put it, is PoE and lurking. Why doesn't that apply to mail-mi?
It does! But you and mail-mi do not have the same metas. Surely you can see this.
All I can see is you dodging the question for.. what, the fifth time? I can't for the life of me understand why you are withholding this information. Let me offer a hypothesis: it's because you are scum and inventing reads, and actually have no reasons. Am I correct?
No, not at all! In fact, I can't even understand how I didn't answer your question. I have explained my read on mail-mi many times. Can you try re-phrasing it, on the chance we're both town and talking past each other?
When I say "fact" in this post, I mean "fact as I see it". If any of my premises are wrong, do correct me.
Fact 1: First you cross off mail-mi and teproc off of today's lynch pool, because they are too towny.
Fact 2: With the remaining players, you went and are still going to great lengths with rereads, covering multiple angles, thinking of possible scumteams, all the work to determine who to lynch today.
Now, I agree with excluding teproc. I have a strong town read on him as well - partially due to chairs stuff, and partially due to his own play. It all adds up to a town narrative - to me he is clearly the least likely to flip scum from my pool of five unknowns.
The question is: Why are you excluding mail-mi? Yep, you've said "meta reasons", multiple times now. What are those meta reasons? -that's the question I feel you are dodging.
I hate, hate hate hate calling scum teams, but here goes with Voltaire - mail-mi. It's beyond me really, Voltaire is by no means an IC, he decides mailmi is off the table, dodges my inquiries for his reasons for that - AND NO ONE SEEMS TO THINK MAIL-MI IS A VIABLE LYNCH NOW??? Whaaaaat?
I know this is not coming out coherent (my brain is quite fried from the session still, but I was pretty eager to get back to this), but to anyone suspecting mail-mi but not voting for him because he isn't viable.. why isn't he viable?
*If you (Voltaire) already answered the question and I just missed a post, I'd like to prematurely announce I feel like a jerk.
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Theoretical mail-mi teams, btw:
Eevee: possible but unlikely. Eevee defends mail-mi in a roundabout way at times, but also would be trying to get me lynched for not suspecting his partner...that would be convoluted but possible, I suppose.
yuma: Totally possible. Don't think there's been any interaction.
Walrus: Unlikely, mail-mi was all over Walrus, right? On the L-1 wagon? *checks* Yes, he was.
So that's two unlikely and one plausible. I'm still fine not voting for mail-mi today.
Finding possible partners for mail-mi should be interesting, as he has been so so so wagon-happy. Might even be one of the most informational lynches?
what information would you get out of his flip?
Well, if he is town, not much if at all. But if he flipped scum, I'd go back to see what lynches he WASN'T willing to participate in. Should be a pretty good place to hunt for a partner, no?
Say what you will about his activity in voting, but at least it creates interactions. I think information should be a tiny tiny piece of the puzzle of who is the best lynch today, though.
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FWIW, I would be up for lynching mail-mi. I don't feel like my concerns regarding his voting record have been adressed at all, besides meta-stuff that I didn't find convincing after skimming through a few mail-mi games.
It seems like you're the only one with me on though, which is why I'm pushing a Walrus lynch despite the case against him being weaker in my mind.
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Can someone on the Voltaire wagon please unvote for the time being?
We have only a day, and no ones gonna derphammer. BTW, if you hammer without intent you are claiming scum.
Still on phone, but lynch list:
Walrus
Eevee
Voltaire.
I don't think we're going to lynch outside of these 3 and frankly I'm okay with that.
Can we expect some reasons for the list when you get on your computer? Maybe even reasons for why some people aren't included to top it off?
For all the times we asked for your reads, this answer of "these three players are scummier than the other two" is a bit of a lackluster. There are five people we are considering here, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for thoughts on everyone.
When you get home obviously, we still have full 24 hours.
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Why not yuma, mail-mi?
Slide him in under you. Don't really want to, but will if we approach deadline.
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FWIW, I would be up for lynching mail-mi. I don't feel like my concerns regarding his voting record have been adressed at all, besides meta-stuff that I didn't find convincing after skimming through a few mail-mi games.
It seems like you're the only one with me on though, which is why I'm pushing a Walrus lynch despite the case against him being weaker in my mind.
I think our concerns regarding his voting history has been brushed off by Voltaire with an ambiguous "he is town for meta reasons", which baffles me.
Anyone who opposes the mailmi lynch: Why?
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Can someone on the Voltaire wagon please unvote for the time being?
We have only a day, and no ones gonna derphammer. BTW, if you hammer without intent you are claiming scum.
Still on phone, but lynch list:
Walrus
Eevee
Voltaire.
I don't think we're going to lynch outside of these 3 and frankly I'm okay with that.
Can we expect some reasons for the list when you get on your computer? Maybe even reasons for why some people aren't included to top it off?
For all the times we asked for your reads, this answer of "these three players are scummier than the other two" is a bit of a lackluster. There are five people we are considering here, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for thoughts on everyone.
When you get home obviously, we still have full 24 hours.
Hopefully. Depends on homework. Most likely, tho.
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FWIW, I would be up for lynching mail-mi. I don't feel like my concerns regarding his voting record have been adressed at all, besides meta-stuff that I didn't find convincing after skimming through a few mail-mi games.
It seems like you're the only one with me on though, which is why I'm pushing a Walrus lynch despite the case against him being weaker in my mind.
I think our concerns regarding his voting history has been brushed off by Voltaire with an ambiguous "he is town for meta reasons", which baffles me.
Anyone who opposes the mailmi lynch: Why?
Because he's obvtown
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The question is: Why are you excluding mail-mi? Yep, you've said "meta reasons", multiple times now. What are those meta reasons? -that's the question I feel you are dodging.
OK, I feel I did already answer this, but apparently not clearly, so there's nothing wrong with you asking for another explanation.
scum!mail-mi tends to be obvious. See HP mafia, where he wanted to claim at like L-5 or something which made no sense. He also was playing the game, basically, early on D1, which mail-mi doesn't really do. In KCGM, he made some strange theory statements and cast some votes with bad(ish) reasons. This one wasn't quite as egregious, but still fairly decent. He also committed the "there are good reasons to vote me but the current ones aren't good" actual scum!trait. Those are the two times I have seen scum!mail-mi.
I haven't seen any of that here. What I have seen is a wagon-happy, sheepy, lurky mail-mi that is the same as all of his town games.
I also know that because of this, mail-mi is the most juicy target for mislynches as scum. I should know, I tried to get him mislynched as scum in WWTWDP.
So that is his meta as I understand it, and that is why I am not considering lynching him today.
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I don't think I'll be voting for yuma today. PoE'ing him to town now, for change! (That's what you get for being unreadable.)
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First of all - thanks for keeping your tone so polite despite me getting a bit worked up. This was indeed the answer I was looking for.
As for the actual explanation.. meh. I mean.. I disagree with it, but I'm trying to make a judgement call on whether it's us having a different take on mailmi's meta or you being dishonest mafia.
My attempt to paraphrase your explanation "if mail-mi was mafia, he would probably have made some egregious error to show it, he hasn't here". Well.. I think he sort of has - with his voting! To me, mail-mi's meta isn't "always voting for everyone". It's more like "often doesn't offer explanations for his votes, sheeps people relentlessly". Do you see how the two are different? I'd expect mail-mi to participate in a normal amount of wagons / lynches, sometimes with borrowed or nonexistent reasons. What catches my attention here isn't the lack of reasons, it's the sheer volume of votes and the willingness to lynch almost anyone, as long as it isn't him.
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My attempt to paraphrase your explanation "if mail-mi was mafia, he would probably have made some egregious error to show it, he hasn't here". Well.. I think he sort of has - with his voting! To me, mail-mi's meta isn't "always voting for everyone". It's more like "often doesn't offer explanations for his votes, sheeps people relentlessly". Do you see how the two are different? I'd expect mail-mi to participate in a normal amount of wagons / lynches, sometimes with borrowed or nonexistent reasons. What catches my attention here isn't the lack of reasons, it's the sheer volume of votes and the willingness to lynch almost anyone, as long as it isn't him.
Yes, I see the difference. mail-mi's voting history is troublesome, I completely agree. I'm not saying he's obvtown or anything, just not in my lynch pool for today. If someone could come up with a more damning expose on his voting history, maybe I'd reconsider.
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I mean, I thought my exposé (;)) was pretty damning. I don't really know how much more you need.
It should be noted that his voting history is a lot better day 2. He voted Eevee for an imaginary scumslip, then unvoted upon reading said scumslip again. He then voted Eevee again, sheeping EFHW, and finally was the first vote on the Walrus wagon for lurking.
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How is that a "better" voting history, Teproc?
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I mean, I thought my exposé (;)) was pretty damning. I don't really know how much more you need.
It should be noted that his voting history is a lot better day 2. He voted Eevee for an imaginary scumslip, then unvoted upon reading said scumslip again. He then voted Eevee again, sheeping EFHW, and finally was the first vote on the Walrus wagon for lurking.
I wonder where he started getting called out on his voting.
Oh wait, I think it was at the start of day 2..
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Post 525 is Teproc's case. I'm going back to re-read it now (then I'll likely be gone from the thread until tomorrow morning fyi)
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OK, it's...not that bad. Bad, but not crazy bad. The faust vote seems completely unexplained but that's it.
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Eevee, how do you see this as different from town!mail-mi? Teproc not understanding I get, but not you. Same way I don't understand your not getting EFHW's point about how you should have known Robz would gambit as scum (hence maybe you were going for towncred).
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His voting history day 2 is better in the sense that he hasn't been on the wagons before the Walrus one.
And yes Eevee, I do think that is the reason, but it's still worth noting.
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I know this is not coming out coherent (my brain is quite fried from the session still, but I was pretty eager to get back to this), but to anyone suspecting mail-mi but not voting for him because he isn't viable.. why isn't he viable?
For me it is a worry. He could be scum. Flashbacks to Pirates II haunt me. But at the same time, f.ds has countless examples of mail-mi being mislynched. It happens all the time.... Remember us in Mean Girls. We went into the end day knowing that we could push a mislynch on mail-mi...
I kinda suspect him. He has done some stuff that makes me go "huh?" But that isn't a reason to lynch mail-mi. It just isn't. Because odds are that he is going to flip town and I don't think we get much of anything out of that unfortunately... especially when we have better options in Voltaire and I think you. I don't think I would lynch walrus over mail-mi. Or Teproc over mail-mi. So he is square in the middle for me. frustrating, but that is the way it goes when you mislynch someone over and over and over again.
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Eevee, how do you see this as different from town!mail-mi? Teproc not understanding I get, but not you. Same way I don't understand your not getting EFHW's point about how you should have known Robz would gambit as scum (hence maybe you were going for towncred).
Well, this may sound ike I'm sure he is scum - I'm not. I'm just very much disagreeing with him being off the table and find the lack of suspicion on him very alarming. How do you see this as different from town!Eevee? Your case on me was lurking and PoE, how does that not apply to mail-mi? That's one of the alarm bells you've set up in my head - your reads don't feel genuine. TownVoltaire is someone who makes me reconsider my own reads with my insight (we agree almost always when we are both town!). Here your reads give me a completely opposite vibe - they feel arbitrary instead of insightful.
I get that I've been wrong about him a lot before and certain scummy traits aren't real scumtells on him, but we also can't fall back on "it's mail-mi, so it's not scummy unless he claims scum". He knows that town shouldn't cast their vote willy-nilly. Being ok with any lynch anyone proposes never advances townie's wincon, but as we discussed day 1, it's of utmost importance for scum to get a townie lynched - so I can see mailmi just getting caught up in trying to make that happen and revealing himself.
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His voting history day 2 is better in the sense that he hasn't been on the wagons before the Walrus one.
And yes Eevee, I do think that is the reason, but it's still worth noting.
I think that just strengthens the scum-mailmi - narrative I'm building.
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I know this is not coming out coherent (my brain is quite fried from the session still, but I was pretty eager to get back to this), but to anyone suspecting mail-mi but not voting for him because he isn't viable.. why isn't he viable?
For me it is a worry. He could be scum. Flashbacks to Pirates II haunt me. But at the same time, f.ds has countless examples of mail-mi being mislynched. It happens all the time.... Remember us in Mean Girls. We went into the end day knowing that we could push a mislynch on mail-mi...
I kinda suspect him. He has done some stuff that makes me go "huh?" But that isn't a reason to lynch mail-mi. It just isn't. Because odds are that he is going to flip town and I don't think we get much of anything out of that unfortunately... especially when we have better options in Voltaire and I think you. I don't think I would lynch walrus over mail-mi. Or Teproc over mail-mi. So he is square in the middle for me. frustrating, but that is the way it goes when you mislynch someone over and over and over again.
I share the sentiment, but I think you are taking it too far. The thought process seems to be "okay.. teproc has been towny, so lets exclude him.. well, then there is mailmi, cant read him, its been a mislynch so often.. got to exclude him as well so that doesnt happen.. who do we have left, its these four guys... well.. poe, those are our lynch pool, 2 scum in 4, pretty good odds, uh?".
I think everyone but me and Teproc is guilty of this to an extent, and because you all should now better, it makes me even more confident teproc is one of the fellow townies i'm trying to identify here.
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Look if the case on voltaire wasn't very good, or if there wasn't a halfway decent case on you, yeah... I would be looking more at mail-mi. But those other options exist and so I favor them.
Look I am not saying mail-mi shouldn't be lynched. But rather that we have options that I think are better. a lot of that has to do with mail-mi, but it has more to do with me thinking that we have pretty good options in front of us, so why would I go for one that isn't as good...?
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Even though I've been laying it hard on mailmi lately, my suspicion on him isn't really any bigger than my suspicion on voltaire or walrus. I think it's very likely our two scum are in that trio.
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I strongly disagree that there is a halfway-decent case on me compared to mail-mi!
As I said in my earlier post, I'm not meaning to say he is clearly the obvious lynch for today. Just that he is grossly underconsidered.
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Vote Count 2.9:
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (2): mail-mi, Voltaire
Voltaire (2): Walrus, yuma
Not voting (2): Teproc, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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Well, I'm assuming EFHW still doesn't want anyone at L-1 (I'm like.. very sure at least and probably just one of Voltaire, Walrus is scum). I'm going to bed, but I'll be on again when I wake up. My dad is coming over for father's day festivities 6-7 hours before the deadline, so I likely won't be able to participate much if at all after that. Should be avalalable for the 10 hours between waking up and dad coming though!
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So, I just reread mail-mi, and here is his voting history:
DAY 1
50 RVS on EFHW (1) for not knowing Game of Thrones
75 chairs (1) for not liking faust's BPT claim idea
85 RVS on yuma (1) for being evil
89 Robz (1) for only having 1 post
158 moves from Robz (3) to Walrus (3) less jokey than usual
307 moves from Walrus (2) to faust (2) "I could go for Faust. Better than Robz, IMO"
367 Intent to hammer chairs (6) - no explanation
424 moves from faust (1) to Voltaire (3) for sheeping and looking scummier in exchange with yuma
491 Intent to hammer faust (6)
499 Hammers faust (7)
DAY 2
542 Eevee (1) for "mislynches"
544 unvote
645 Eevee (2) for still pushing old W case
739 moves from Eevee (2) to Walrus (1) for lurking
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With the exception of the intents to hammer, most of mail-mi's votes don't seem intended to influence the outcome of who actually gets lynched. For example, he leaves the Robz wagon with 3 votes to join the Walrus wagon, making it 3 votes. He could have let someone else hammer faust - would look less scummy, but he really wanted to do it. His switch to chairs is the scummiest move, b/c he previously was giving chairs an internet pass, and then suddenly said "great lynch" with no reason.
I get the feeling mail-mi is using his votes as communication devices, not lynching devices.
Also I see I made a mistake in the vote #'s at L-1 and hammer. Those should be 4 and 5.
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1. WalrusMcFishSr--Doesn't feel like his normal self, also lurking and pleasing the crowd.
2. Chairs/Teproc--Super duper townie. Don't lynch.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie
4. Voltaire--Nullish, hasn't done some of the (oh how to word this) super Townie-ish things I expect from Voltaire, but isn't too scummy either.
5. Yuma--Keep mixing him up with Toy Story yuma. Anyway, under a lot of pressure today. Reacted a bit aggressively, slight scummy (I hope I'm not getting mixed up with Toy Story yuma still.)
6. EFHW--JK
7. Mail-Mi--obvtown
8. Eevee--Lurking, except now that he's called out GUESS WHAT? he's back. Scummish read.
Scum to chum:
Walrus
Eevee
Voltaire
yuma
Teproc
EFHW
mail-mi
PPE:7 had to go to dinner in the middle of writing
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If we leave out RVS, then on DAY 1:
Eevee had 1 vote on 1 person
EFHW had 4 votes on 4 different people,
Voltaire had 4 votes on 4 different people,
chairs had 5 votes on 3 different people,
Robz had 5 votes on 4 different people,
mail-mi had 6 votes for 5 different people,
Walrus had 7 votes for 5 different people,
faust had 7 votes for 5 different people,
yuma had 8 votes for 5 different people.
mail-mi hammered once.
yuma put Robz to L-1.
chairs/now Teproc put faust at L-1
Walrus put Voltaire at L-1
faust put both Robz and Walrus at L-1.
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Eevee I'd like to hear your response to this.
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If we leave out RVS, then on DAY 1:
Eevee had 1 vote on 1 person
EFHW had 4 votes on 4 different people,
Voltaire had 4 votes on 4 different people,
chairs had 5 votes on 3 different people,
Robz had 5 votes on 4 different people,
mail-mi had 6 votes for 5 different people,
Walrus had 7 votes for 5 different people,
faust had 7 votes for 5 different people,
yuma had 8 votes for 5 different people.
mail-mi hammered once.
yuma put Robz to L-1.
chairs/now Teproc put faust at L-1
Walrus put Voltaire at L-1
faust put both Robz and Walrus at L-1.
Wait, you're complaining at mine when Walrus' is the same if not slightly worse than mine? Oh please.
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Eevee I'd like to hear your response to this.
to what?
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Eevee I'd like to hear your response to this.
to what?
mail-mi's voting pattern is not as extreme as you depicted it to be. Does this affect your viewing him as scum?
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Since mail-mi pointed out that Eevee has been posting more... he has indeed, very noticeably. Here's my post count now :
Voltaire : 99
yuma : 82
Teproc: 65
EFHW: 59
Eevee: 45
mail-mi: 29
Walrus : 19
PPE : The thing about mail-mi's voting record is that he voted on every wagon. yuma voted more, but not on all wagons. I don't think this data is very instructive because it ignores the context of the vote.
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yuma and Walrus both voted for people who were or became wagons. It's mail-mi's delivery that looks bad and the fact that votes are a higher percentage of his posts. But those things are completely consistent with town!mail-mi. Eevee was saying that it was the number of votes and the large number of different people voted for that he saw as scummy, and mail-mi falls in the middle of the pack there.
yuma's Day 1 votes:
walrus (1)
Robz (L-1)
EFHW (1)
faust (1)
unvote
EFHW (2)
faust (1)
Voltaire (1)
faust (3)
Walrus' Day 1 votes
faust (2)
unvote
faust (2)
Robz (3)
EFHW (2)
Robz (L-1)
chairs (3)
Voltaire (L-1)
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I strongly disagree that there is a halfway-decent case on me compared to mail-mi!
You would disagree. But I think most everyone else here would agree with me on this...
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Eevee I'd like to hear your response to this.
to what?
mail-mi's voting pattern is not as extreme as you depicted it to be. Does this affect your viewing him as scum?
It does, yeah. Drops the percentage I have in my head from 55 to 40 or 45 or something maybe? What caused my views was statements like "I could go for Faust. Better than Robz, IMO" "less jokey, imo" and the unexplained hammer on faust.. left me feeling like he was more all over the place than he actually was. But, as you guys are pointing out, it's consistent with his earlier play to have questionable reasons for his votes.. so meh. I concede.
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PPE : The thing about mail-mi's voting record is that he voted on every wagon. yuma voted more, but not on all wagons. I don't think this data is very instructive because it ignores the context of the vote.
Yuma also tends to build up to his votes more - which makes them stick out less, seem more like a natural progression. But yeah, I wasn't totally off base on my mail-mi suspicions (he WAS very gungho), but I guess that's exactly what I'm used to mislynching him for.
I disagree on giving him any sort of a pass though. While the scummiest thing I had isn't as scummy, there is still the fact that he hasn't been giving me any townie vibes ("hasnt done anything towny") and PoE.
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I'm starting to understand EFHW's point about mail-mi using votes as a communication tool rather than a lynching device. Well said.
The reason my post count is skyrocketing is because for the first time in probably the entire game I sat down for three hours yesterday to have a real back and forth with you guys from a real computer. Lots of short posts like this obviously look "good" in the post counts. mail-mi trying to fling poo at me for being online for a lively discussion for once leaves a sour taste in my mouth though - but I guess it's natural to want to discredit someone that was campaigning against you so heavily.
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So, with this, I guess I''m reducing my lynch pool to Voltaire and Walrus. They are both at L-2, so I'll continue to hold off from voting as per the request of EFHW. Time for more people to come online so we can get this done! 11 hours til deadline.
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I suggest everyone voting Walrus go back and read his first 13 or so posts with fresh eyes. They read so towny to me.
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It's 13 b/c that's how far I got when I decided to post this.
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so still on my list are Eevee, yuma, Teproc and maybe Voltaire.
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I suggest everyone voting Walrus go back and read his first 13 or so posts with fresh eyes. They read so towny to me.
I have, a few times, and I don't really agree. His first post could be rolefishing on faust. He claims faust is overeager, and faust did in fact come out of the gate gung-ho, but we now know that faust was town. Walrus was clearly implying faust was different and different = scum. Then he removes his vote, says he still finds faust scummy, and we get the whole "revote"/permission situation. I just clearly see this as scum, as in, if I don't re-vote, they'll think (know?) I'm scum!
What I'm saying is it's not a slam dunk, but even in isolation, Walrus's first posts have a clear scum narrative too. And we do have the rest of the game to consider.
For the record, my lynch order of preference goes Walrus, Eevee, yuma now, in that order. Those are the three I will happily vote.
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so still on my list are Eevee, yuma, Teproc and maybe Voltaire.
Teproc still on your list! Might I ask why?
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(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/499/694/443.png)
Here's where I currently stand. I'll also be around through deadline, especially after lunchtime.
Of the four that EFHW mentioned, I still prefer Voltaire. Recent activity has done nothing to convince me of his towniness. Eevee said this, which I think captured my thoughts well:
Well, this may sound ike I'm sure he is scum - I'm not. I'm just very much disagreeing with him being off the table and find the lack of suspicion on him very alarming. How do you see this as different from town!Eevee? Your case on me was lurking and PoE, how does that not apply to mail-mi? That's one of the alarm bells you've set up in my head - your reads don't feel genuine. TownVoltaire is someone who makes me reconsider my own reads with my insight (we agree almost always when we are both town!). Here your reads give me a completely opposite vibe - they feel arbitrary instead of insightful.
Which brings me to Eevee...still a solid second choice lynch, but I have some concerns now. First of all, he has been much more active lately, and the things he has said strike me as being townier. Now of course the fact that he's switched up his posting frequency is a bit questionable, so that nullifies part of it...maybe he's scum under fire who realizes he needs to up his game. But overall I give him a few townpoints.
I also feel maaaaaybe that the Eevee lynch feels a little like we're settling into a compromise lynch, like maybe scum wouldn't resist it too hard because they know it's a mislynch. That's sort of a vague feeling of existential dread though.
Teproc--well I still think he seems townier, and I think that a Voltaire flip would give us a lot of info about him considering their interactions. Not that we're lynching solely for information, but it is a nice bonus, and it's part of the reason why I believe a Voltaire lynch is superior to a Teproc lynch right now. To be honest I too was a little surprised to see him in EFHW's lynchpool.
yuma I'm not as sure about as I used to be. But I think there are better lynches today.
mail-mi...well you know that I was wary of mail-mi from the beginning, but others convinced me to drop it. Now I don't even know what to think. But Voltaire is also one of the ones who seems to be defending mail-mi, so I think a lynch there would be informative on this front as well.
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So let's play pretend, that the scum team is the least likely - Teproc/mail-mi or something like that. What do they do as we eat up all this time and energy? Probably just lurk in the background, right?
Because what I see is a fair amount of effort and energy by everyone but mail-mi (part of how lynching him tells us the least of anyone, and I think he's second-least likely to flip scum). So I currently believe we have at least one scum on the ropes, realistically.
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Yeah, Teproc is on the list only because of the few recent things I mentioned. He has otherwise been very towny. I guess I'm worried about being bamboozled. I keep putting off rereading yuma b/c there is so much. But time is running short!
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I suggest everyone voting Walrus go back and read his first 13 or so posts with fresh eyes. They read so towny to me.
How do you read his unvoting (while still maintaining his main argument for voting, i.e. that faust's behaviour is out of character), then revoting for faust as towny ?
My guess is : Walrus wanted to be active very early on (this whole exchange happened in the first ~40 posts of the game or so) and to start the scumhunting for town credit. Only he realised his case was weak (since faust had done the exact same thing in another game), and backed off. This could all be read as eager town, if he hadn't gone right back to his vote after yuma's post. I'll note that he also called out lurkers in the post in which he revoted for faust, which fits my narrative.
This isn't the only way to read it (although the revote is really not townie to me), but it's good enough for me, considering the alternative is Voltaire, whom* I have a town read on. As I said earlier, I'm also fine with a mail-mi or a yuma lynch, but those don't seem to be happening, so I'm fine with Walrus.
* correct ?
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I suggest everyone voting Walrus go back and read his first 13 or so posts with fresh eyes. They read so towny to me.
How do you read his unvoting (while still maintaining his main argument for voting, i.e. that faust's behaviour is out of character), then revoting for faust as towny ?
My guess is : Walrus wanted to be active very early on (this whole exchange happened in the first ~40 posts of the game or so) and to start the scumhunting for town credit. Only he realised his case was weak (since faust had done the exact same thing in another game), and backed off. This could all be read as eager town, if he hadn't gone right back to his vote after yuma's post. I'll note that he also called out lurkers in the post in which he revoted for faust, which fits my narrative.
This isn't the only way to read it (although the revote is really not townie to me), but it's good enough for me, considering the alternative is Voltaire, whom* I have a town read on. As I said earlier, I'm also fine with a mail-mi or a yuma lynch, but those don't seem to be happening, so I'm fine with Walrus.
* correct ?
It reads post-noob to me. I can easily see all those things happening to me as town. Of course, I am a scummyish town player, as has been apparent in this game. It seems to me he is doing exactly what he said - trying to put himself forward more now that he has a few games under his belt, and having a few bumps along the way. Each one of his posts addresses multiple points, his reasoning develops naturally, his emotional responses feel genuine. I have no problem with the vote change.
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I haven't finished rereading yuma, but I'm removing him from my list. He is clearly scum-hunting, and the only scummy stuff was towards me, so I should divide that by 2 or something.
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Leaving Teproc to the side for the time being, that leaves Eevee and Voltaire. Eevee has been much townier lately, but he almost has no other choice. He backed off on mail-mi quite gracefully. He's a really nice guy. But I can't rule him out. I'll look at Voltaire some more.
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Teproc - have you explained your town read on Voltaire?
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Teproc, Eevee and Voltaire are the 3 people on Walrus. Is anyone else considering voting Walrus?
Walrus, mail-mi and yuma are on Voltaire. Eevee is also considering him.
Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
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one major hangup i have with voltaire is that if he is scum I didn't die in the night.
I pursued him aggressively day1 and he probably would have known that i would continue to be aggressive day2...
I am not sure what to make of that to be honest...if he is scum maybe he thought i would be a mislynch possibility or maybe he was scum PR hunting like he said at beginning of day2... or maybe he thought the argument that the longer yuma lives the more likely he is scum (that he was setting up throughout day1) would be worth the risk of being scum hunted day2.
Or maybe he is town and scum left me alive to pursue a mislynch... I have to consider that... actually that brings up another big point.... if voltaire is town that means I am 0/3 in scum hunting. I think town voltaire would find that unacceptable from me and would be pursuing my lynch today much more aggressively.... but he hasn't... maybe cause he knows I am right on this one?
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Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
*raises hand*
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Teproc, Eevee and Voltaire are the 3 people on Walrus. Is anyone else considering voting Walrus?
Walrus, mail-mi and yuma are on Voltaire. Eevee is also considering him.
Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
I won;t vote walrus. I would vote teproc over walrus.
I might vote eevee over volt, but prefer volt I think.
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Or maybe he is town and scum left me alive to pursue a mislynch... I have to consider that... actually that brings up another big point.... if voltaire is town that means I am 0/3 in scum hunting. I think town voltaire would find that unacceptable from me and would be pursuing my lynch today much more aggressively.... but he hasn't... maybe cause he knows I am right on this one?
Well, it is, but
1. you were townier in the second half of my re-read (still scummy)
2. Our IC doesn't appear to want to lynch you, nor do many other players
2a. If you're scum, you have a partner, so I can be fine lynching them
But really, if you are town, I am not surprised scum left you alive. Like I said, I think there's no reason whatsoever to kill Robz unless you believe he is a town PR. That's what I think happened.
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I don't think I have.
The big thing is that we seem to think very similarly, to a point that I don't believe it's faked. I read his posts and they often say pretty much what I was thinking. I have a hard time believing scum could do that.
Now I have disagreed with him a few times (looking for scumpairs is not good I think), but I will also say that his day 2 seems very towny overall. The theory talk isn't very relevant, but he certainly didn't seem to have any ulterior motives there, and then he spent his time scumhunting. His dismissal of mail-mi is, I think, a necessity because you have to exclude some people from your lynch pool : I am doing something similar with Eevee actually.
Then there's the buddying he's been doing towards me, which worried me at first, but then got so over the top that I have a hard time believing it's a scum tactic (I recognize that it could be though).
It's not that I don't have doubts about him, it's that I feel like they're more due to the fear of being duped (kind of what you're saying about me actually), and I don't think that's a very constructive way to think about this game. At this point, you have to trust somebody. I will certainly question this a lot more if we're both alive day 3, but for now I don't feel comfortable voting for him when pretty much all the other options are more appealing to me.
PPE: 5 unread replies
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I don't think I have.
The big thing is that we seem to think very similarly, to a point that I don't believe it's faked. I read his posts and they often say pretty much what I was thinking. I have a hard time believing scum could do that.
you want to see a real example of this... go read MVIII where C_frisk (scum) and I (town) share basically identical reads and thoughts through days1-3 to the point where it becomes apparent something weird is going on. I gave him tons of credit for thinking the same as me, but turns out he was just scum "mirroring" me. It worked really well and I was very hesitant to lynch him.
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Yeah, but Teproc can also go read D1 where he was chairs.
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There's also dozens of examples of this happening when it's town/town. I mean, yes, scum can do it, but it's one of those "what's more likely" things if you're looking at it objectively.
Something to note: yuma has planted the seeds of discrediting me every time he talks about me. He predicts what the case against him is, then says bringing it up is scummy. So if I ever advance my case against yuma, I'll look scummy. He just did it right now (the 0/3 thing), and he did it at the start of the day too:
Voltaire as well... I fully expect him to come in here and vote for me raging that I am still alive and had a town read on Robz for town credit... But I'll leave it to him to make the pseudocase on me.
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Teproc, Eevee and Voltaire are the 3 people on Walrus. Is anyone else considering voting Walrus?
Walrus, mail-mi and yuma are on Voltaire. Eevee is also considering him.
Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
I'm on Voltaire? I prefer walrus.
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There's also dozens of examples of this happening when it's town/town. I mean, yes, scum can do it, but it's one of those "what's more likely" things if you're looking at it objectively.
That isn't the point. He says "I have a hard time believe scum could do that" and I am showing that scum can, in fact, do just that and basically get away with it. Frisk ended up getting lynched. But it wasn't a given conclusion to that, it was quite close.
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Then yes, we agree, scum can do that.
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Something to note: yuma has planted the seeds of discrediting me every time he talks about me. He predicts what the case against him is, then says bringing it up is scummy. So if I ever advance my case against yuma, I'll look scummy. He just did it right now (the 0/3 thing), and he did it at the start of the day too:
Hey man, you were the one that started the whole "if yuma is still alive tomorrow he is probably scum, cause yuma is SOOOO powerful as town that scum wouldn't dare leave him alive." You started that train of thought day1. So yeah, I am going to be on the lookout for you trying to make that argument, especially when I have repeatedly shown that in the history of f.ds it is in fact false.
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My case on you has absolutely nothing to do with you being alive at this point.
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My case on you has absolutely nothing to do with you being alive at this point.
I am aware, you think mafia killed Robz as PR hunting. But here I am responding to your quote from the beginning of day2 where I did fully expect you to come in making that sort of a case because you had brought it up so consistently throughout day1.
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My case on you has absolutely nothing to do with you being alive at this point.
I am aware, you think mafia killed Robz as PR hunting. But here I am responding to your quote from the beginning of day2 where I did fully expect you to come in making that sort of a case because you had brought it up so consistently throughout day1.
or rather your quote of me from day2 that you just referenced a few posts up.... (this type of language always gets me confused. Hopefully you know what I am talking about here).
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Just posting to say I'm here.
I agree with whoever said that we surely have scum in our crosshairs now. It's super interesting for me, because basically out of the three most likely looking candidates right now, I know myself to be town and strongly suspect both of the others (and not even for self-preservation reasons).
I'm going back and forth with whom I like more, Voltaire or Walrus, but ultimately I'll be really freaking glad if it's not me.
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I agree with whoever said that we surely have scum in our crosshairs now. It's super interesting for me, because basically out of the three most likely looking candidates right now, I know myself to be town and strongly suspect both of the others (and not even for self-preservation reasons).
I'm going back and forth with whom I like more, Voltaire or Walrus, but ultimately I'll be really freaking glad if it's not me.
That would be me, one of your two. ;D
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Teproc, Eevee and Voltaire are the 3 people on Walrus. Is anyone else considering voting Walrus?
Walrus, mail-mi and yuma are on Voltaire. Eevee is also considering him.
Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
I'm on Voltaire? I prefer walrus.
sorry mail-mi, you are right. Why do you prefer Walrus?
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Teproc, Eevee and Voltaire are the 3 people on Walrus. Is anyone else considering voting Walrus?
Walrus, mail-mi and yuma are on Voltaire. Eevee is also considering him.
Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
I'm on Voltaire? I prefer walrus.
sorry mail-mi, you are right. Why do you prefer Walrus?
Eevee was the one on Voltaire. Teproc on Walrus. So we have 3 votes for Voltaire, 3 for Walrus, and me.
People voting Voltaire, what do you make of Voltaire pointing out two or three times that Teproc was acting against a mafia wincon? That seems like support mafia could easily avoid giving to town (assuming they are not partners).
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How is giving town points for that any different from other reasons for giving town points?
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Teproc, Eevee and Voltaire are the 3 people on Walrus. Is anyone else considering voting Walrus?
Walrus, mail-mi and yuma are on Voltaire. Eevee is also considering him.
Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
I'm on Voltaire? I prefer walrus.
sorry mail-mi, you are right. Why do you prefer Walrus?
Eevee was the one on Voltaire. Teproc on Walrus. So we have 3 votes for Voltaire, 3 for Walrus, and me.
People voting Voltaire, what do you make of Voltaire pointing out two or three times that Teproc was acting against a mafia wincon? That seems like support mafia could easily avoid giving to town (assuming they are not partners).
It seems to me that this is very easy towncredit to be giving out. Teproc was never a very likely lynch candidate from the beginning of day2. So if he is mafia, he is giving a strong townread and towncredit to the person least likely to be lynched (aside from the IC). It isn't a very big risk. And look it has paid off. Teproc isn't voting voltaire nor does it appear he ever will. If Teproc is town he won his support.
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It seems to me that this is very easy towncredit to be giving out. Teproc was never a very likely lynch candidate from the beginning of day2. So if he is mafia, he is giving a strong townread and towncredit to the person least likely to be lynched (aside from the IC). It isn't a very big risk. And look it has paid off. Teproc isn't voting voltaire nor does it appear he ever will. If Teproc is town he won his support.
Yes, and you worked as hard as possible to prevent Teproc from becoming obv!town.
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It seems to me that this is very easy towncredit to be giving out. Teproc was never a very likely lynch candidate from the beginning of day2. So if he is mafia, he is giving a strong townread and towncredit to the person least likely to be lynched (aside from the IC). It isn't a very big risk. And look it has paid off. Teproc isn't voting voltaire nor does it appear he ever will. If Teproc is town he won his support.
Yes, and you worked as hard as possible to prevent Teproc from becoming obv!town.
Did I? Back that up. Show me and everyone. Because I would say I have expressed some doubt (necessary doubt considering the circumstances) compared to you... but "worked as hard as possible" that seems like a gross overstatement.
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Teproc, Eevee and Voltaire are the 3 people on Walrus. Is anyone else considering voting Walrus?
Walrus, mail-mi and yuma are on Voltaire. Eevee is also considering him.
Who here is open to an Eevee lynch?
I'm on Voltaire? I prefer walrus.
sorry mail-mi, you are right. Why do you prefer Walrus?
Eevee was the one on Voltaire. Teproc on Walrus. So we have 3 votes for Voltaire, 3 for Walrus, and me.
People voting Voltaire, what do you make of Voltaire pointing out two or three times that Teproc was acting against a mafia wincon? That seems like support mafia could easily avoid giving to town (assuming they are not partners).
It seems to me that this is very easy towncredit to be giving out. Teproc was never a very likely lynch candidate from the beginning of day2. So if he is mafia, he is giving a strong townread and towncredit to the person least likely to be lynched (aside from the IC). It isn't a very big risk. And look it has paid off. Teproc isn't voting voltaire nor does it appear he ever will. If Teproc is town he won his support.
Oh this too, absolutely.
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It seems to me that this is very easy towncredit to be giving out. Teproc was never a very likely lynch candidate from the beginning of day2. So if he is mafia, he is giving a strong townread and towncredit to the person least likely to be lynched (aside from the IC). It isn't a very big risk. And look it has paid off. Teproc isn't voting voltaire nor does it appear he ever will. If Teproc is town he won his support.
Yes, and you worked as hard as possible to prevent Teproc from becoming obv!town.
Did I? Back that up. Show me and everyone. Because I would say I have expressed some doubt (necessary doubt considering the circumstances) compared to you... but "worked as hard as possible" that seems like a gross overstatement.
You know if you did or not.
And "expressing doubt" is all you need to do. Of course you wouldn't run around saying "dudez teproc is so scummmmmm," but making sure that people keep questioning themselves is what scum needs to do. You said it yourself in your case on EFHW, scum has to avoid anyone becoming obvtown.
The below is not every single post or quote, because if you are scum what you are doing is trying to refute individual points and not the whole - ie how they affect the flow and direction of the conversation we're having today.
Reverse order:
I am ready and willing to vote for voltaire, but again wonder about teproc and mail-mi.
You have to assume 4 different things before you arrive at a conclusion. That isn't good. I agree that mail-mi and teproc probably shouldn't be the lynch candidates for today, which means I should only be looking at Walrus, eevee and voltaire...
But I want to take in everything (including associations with mail-mi and teproc) in trying to figure out which one is mafia/partners. Not doing so excludes possibilities that are very real and doesn't result in incredibly shaky results.
I am not really considering teproc a lynch for today, but I am keeping him very much in the back of my mind because I do think it is a realistic possibility that he is in fact scum, especially as it appears other players appear to not be.
How is teproc's play to his detriment if he is scum. I lean with you that he is more likely town than scum, but I think you and others are giving him far more credit than deserved based solely off chair's /outing from the game, which as I explained before I think chairs would have done regardless of his alignment.
I do think teproc is playing well. I disagree with some of his points and he isn't currently at the top of my list, but I dont' think we can just give him a pass and not look at him as potential scum. Doing so I think is dangerous. Same, but inverse with mail-mi.
We also need to discuss if we really think that chairs/teproc is town. It seems like most players gave chairs a town read toward the end of the day--I think a lot of that might have been sympathy reads (I know I felt bad that he was /outing and it is hard to lynch someone you feel bad for, that is just psychological behavior)
(now that last one is quite reasonable. But it's worth remembering the timeline - you say this, start of day, cool cool. Then you do a case on EFHW, it blows up, we have an IC now, you start questioning Teproc way more)
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Dad came now, i'll be back before the deadline at least to vote but no access for a while.
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Yes, and you worked as hard as possible to prevent Teproc from becoming obv!town.
Did I? Back that up. Show me and everyone. Because I would say I have expressed some doubt (necessary doubt considering the circumstances) compared to you... but "worked as hard as possible" that seems like a gross overstatement.
You know if you did or not.
And "expressing doubt" is all you need to do. Of course you wouldn't run around saying "dudez teproc is so scummmmmm," but making sure that people keep questioning themselves is what scum needs to do. You said it yourself in your case on EFHW, scum has to avoid anyone becoming obvtown.
The below is not every single post or quote, because if you are scum what you are doing is trying to refute individual points and not the whole - ie how they affect the flow and direction of the conversation we're having today.
Reverse order:
I am ready and willing to vote for voltaire, but again wonder about teproc and mail-mi.
You have to assume 4 different things before you arrive at a conclusion. That isn't good. I agree that mail-mi and teproc probably shouldn't be the lynch candidates for today, which means I should only be looking at Walrus, eevee and voltaire...
But I want to take in everything (including associations with mail-mi and teproc) in trying to figure out which one is mafia/partners. Not doing so excludes possibilities that are very real and doesn't result in incredibly shaky results.
I am not really considering teproc a lynch for today, but I am keeping him very much in the back of my mind because I do think it is a realistic possibility that he is in fact scum, especially as it appears other players appear to not be.
How is teproc's play to his detriment if he is scum. I lean with you that he is more likely town than scum, but I think you and others are giving him far more credit than deserved based solely off chair's /outing from the game, which as I explained before I think chairs would have done regardless of his alignment.
I do think teproc is playing well. I disagree with some of his points and he isn't currently at the top of my list, but I dont' think we can just give him a pass and not look at him as potential scum. Doing so I think is dangerous. Same, but inverse with mail-mi.
We also need to discuss if we really think that chairs/teproc is town. It seems like most players gave chairs a town read toward the end of the day--I think a lot of that might have been sympathy reads (I know I felt bad that he was /outing and it is hard to lynch someone you feel bad for, that is just psychological behavior)
(now that last one is quite reasonable. But it's worth remembering the timeline - you say this, start of day, cool cool. Then you do a case on EFHW, it blows up, we have an IC now, you start questioning Teproc way more)
I know that I expressed doubt. I already said that. And it is reasonable doubt. But look at what you said... the part that I bolded at the top... "worked as hard as possible." This is what I want backed up. Because now you are saying, "all I needed to do" which to me is very different from "worked as hard as possible." For me to have worked as hard as possible would have required... well a lot more work. Say a Teproc reread. Haven't really done one of those (because there hasn't really been a need and other factors)
Next lets look at the quotes that you pull from me.... Parts that are important are bolded... Three of the quotes you pull have me saying something to the effect of "teproc is not the lynch for today" I am pretty sure I make that statement elsewhere as well....
So you are saying that I am trying to cast suspicion on teproc... by saying he shouldn't be lynched today?
I think it is very reasonable to try and be doubtful of teproc... Being 100% sure he is town just spells potential disaster for town. You don't really seem to realize this and now are casting suspicion on me for making sure all our bases are covered.
And last point. Voltaire has spinned this whole conversation about something that he has done that is potentially scummy (something I brought up because EFHW asked about it) into a conversation about me instead.... while not really addressing the points about him being scummy...
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And last point. Voltaire has spinned this whole conversation about something that he has done that is potentially scummy (something I brought up because EFHW asked about it) into a conversation about me instead.... while not really addressing the points about him being scummy...
Nice try. I am scummy for giving town cred to Teproc, which...is also what you are doing (for today at least). Does not compute.
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Ok, I think people can put
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And last point. Voltaire has spinned this whole conversation about something that he has done that is potentially scummy (something I brought up because EFHW asked about it) into a conversation about me instead.... while not really addressing the points about him being scummy...
Nice try. I am scummy for giving town cred to Teproc, which...is also what you are doing (for today at least). Does not compute.
Sorry. You are right, I typed that up too quickly. EFHW asked us what we made of you giving Teproc towncred... she wondered if that gave you towncred. I showed that it doesn't and so doesn't negate the scumread that I have on you. But what is scummy is moving the conversation away from yourself and onto me.
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Sorry, on phone. We can put people at L-1 now, just be careful re cross posting. Also since I will probably die tonight I want to make reads post before any hammer.
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State intents to hammer, too.
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Sorry. You are right, I typed that up too quickly. EFHW asked us what we made of you giving Teproc towncred... she wondered if that gave you towncred. I showed that it doesn't and so doesn't negate the scumread that I have on you. But what is scummy is moving the conversation away from yourself and onto me.
Town can talk about two things at once. I answered the questions about me (insufficiently, in your opinion) and stated something about you. Also the question EFHW asked was not really meant for me to reply to anyway, so it's not so much "moving the conversation away" so much as me just still participating at all.
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I won't be at a computer until 630 probably. I am still against a Walrus lynch.
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Sorry. You are right, I typed that up too quickly. EFHW asked us what we made of you giving Teproc towncred... she wondered if that gave you towncred. I showed that it doesn't and so doesn't negate the scumread that I have on you. But what is scummy is moving the conversation away from yourself and onto me.
Town can talk about two things at once. I answered the questions about me (insufficiently, in your opinion) and stated something about you. Also the question EFHW asked was not really meant for me to reply to anyway, so it's not so much "moving the conversation away" so much as me just still participating at all.
Sure... but what gets me is that I am answering a question from EFHW. She asked. I responded... and gave my thoughts. My thoughts included some ideas that pointed to you potentially being scum.
But then you jump on me by saying: "Something to note: yuma has planted the seeds of discrediting me every time he talks about me." Which to me makes it look like the entire point of my post was to discredit you. No. The entire point was to answer EFHW's question. If not for her question I wouldn't have posted those thoughts... they were prompted by an IC's question--hence why IC's are great, they get you thinking about things you otherwise wouldn't--so I think you saying that I am trying to discredit you when all I am doing is answering an IC's query is... well... a stretch.
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I don't think I have.
The big thing is that we seem to think very similarly, to a point that I don't believe it's faked. I read his posts and they often say pretty much what I was thinking. I have a hard time believing scum could do that.
Now I have disagreed with him a few times (looking for scumpairs is not good I think), but I will also say that his day 2 seems very towny overall. The theory talk isn't very relevant, but he certainly didn't seem to have any ulterior motives there, and then he spent his time scumhunting. His dismissal of mail-mi is, I think, a necessity because you have to exclude some people from your lynch pool : I am doing something similar with Eevee actually.
Then there's the buddying he's been doing towards me, which worried me at first, but then got so over the top that I have a hard time believing it's a scum tactic (I recognize that it could be though).
It's not that I don't have doubts about him, it's that I feel like they're more due to the fear of being duped (kind of what you're saying about me actually), and I don't think that's a very constructive way to think about this game. At this point, you have to trust somebody. I will certainly question this a lot more if we're both alive day 3, but for now I don't feel comfortable voting for him when pretty much all the other options are more appealing to me.
PPE: 5 unread replies
All the other options? You say you rule out Eevee, so who do you mean? And why did you rule out Eevee, btw?
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But then you jump on me by saying: "Something to note: yuma has planted the seeds of discrediting me every time he talks about me." Which to me makes it look like the entire point of my post was to discredit you. No. The entire point was to answer EFHW's question. If not for her question I wouldn't have posted those thoughts... they were prompted by an IC's question--hence why IC's are great, they get you thinking about things you otherwise wouldn't--so I think you saying that I am trying to discredit you when all I am doing is answering an IC's query is... well... a stretch.
Fair point if you're town. I still think it's possible we're on the same team. But what you said also fits a pattern, regardless of what prompted it, and I stand by what I pointed out.
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Walrus, you said you agree with Eevee that Voltaire's reads don't feel genuine. Can you elaborate with some examples of your own?
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All the other options? You say you rule out Eevee, so who do you mean? And why did you rule out Eevee, btw?
By all the other options, I mean Walrus, mail-mi and yuma.
I've said this in my POE post, but I don't see what scummy things Eevee has done. The only ones I see are being absent at the end of day 1 and not elaborating on his case on Walrus after saying he would. His recent posts have only comforted me in this. He hasn't posted much (before recently), but when he has, he's been mostly townie in my eyes.
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Eevee was the one on Voltaire. Teproc on Walrus. So we have 3 votes for Voltaire, 3 for Walrus, and me.
So we don't have the votes for Walrus anyway, it seems, unless someone changes their mind. Which would need to be EFHW (highly unlikely), yuma (I highly doubt it), Walrus (duh no), or Eevee (quite possible).
So basically it looks like we can lynch Walrus over EFHW's objections if Eevee decides to vote Walrus instead of me.
We can lynch me, probably, if Eevee joins yuma and Walrus, and EFHW as well, all of which seems plausible.
We can lynch Eevee - well, can we lynch Eevee? I would vote Eevee, mail-mi has, EFHW has...we'd need a fourth vote. Teproc has said he won't, yuma seems unwilling, that leaves only Walrus - who says Eevee is his second choice. So yes, we can lynch Eevee.
Those seem to be our big candidates. I would personally love to add yuma to the table, but I really don't see the support. Plus, it would need to (again) be over the IC's objections.
So the viable candidates clearly seem to be myself, Walrus, and Eevee. Lynching Walrus is possible but would need to be done over EFHW's objection.
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Correct me if there are errors in this. The purpose was to make sure we weren't spread apart to the point of an accidental no-lynch from failing to get a majority on someone.
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We can lynch Eevee - well, can we lynch Eevee? I would vote Eevee, mail-mi has, EFHW has...we'd need a fourth vote. Teproc has said he won't, yuma seems unwilling, that leaves only Walrus - who says Eevee is his second choice. So yes, we can lynch Eevee.
No I am willing. I would highly prefer voltaire, but could vote eevee if your lynch didn't go through.
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This is how I see it as well, although I don't know where most people stand on yuma. You and me makes two, it's possible that two other people would be willing ?
I'm not sure going against EFHW's will is a big problem. It's not like being an IC makes her reads any better (sorry EFHW, I just happen to disagree with your reads ;)). Besides, wouldn't a wagon without EFHW on it be more informative ? Maybe not.
In any case, I don't think it makes much of a difference wether or not a lynch is "IC approved".
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This is how I see it as well, although I don't know where most people stand on yuma. You and me makes two, it's possible that two other people would be willing ?
I'm not sure going against EFHW's will is a big problem. It's not like being an IC makes her reads any better (sorry EFHW, I just happen to disagree with your reads ;)). Besides, wouldn't a wagon without EFHW on it be more informative ? Maybe not.
In any case, I don't think it makes much of a difference wether or not a lynch is "IC approved".
It matters in a tiny way to me, in that her opinions are guaranteed to be pure. In that maybe you really are pulling the wool over on me and everyone else, but I know EFHW isn't doing that.
So you, me, EFHW have shown a willingness for yuma.
I'm trying to make sure we've looked at all of this from every angle...
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Actually maybe it is better info if EFHW is on the wagon now that I think of it. If we lynch town, it's pretty certain 1 scum at least is gonna be on the wagon, so it reduces the possibilities I guess. Does that make sense ?
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Vote Count 2.10:
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (2): mail-mi, Voltaire
Voltaire (2): Walrus, yuma
Not voting (2): Teproc, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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Actually maybe it is better info if EFHW is on the wagon now that I think of it. If we lynch town, it's pretty certain 1 scum at least is gonna be on the wagon, so it reduces the possibilities I guess. Does that make sense ?
Well...7 alive, 4 to lynch. Lynchee won't vote for themselves. 6 possible votes. If EFHW is always on-wagon, 5 possible votes. There are 2 scum, so it is possible for the three remaining town to lynch town without scum's help. So I'm not sure.
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This is how I see it as well, although I don't know where most people stand on yuma. You and me makes two, it's possible that two other people would be willing ?
Actually you're right, it's just me and you, I forgot that EFHW took yuma off the table for herself (something I strongly disagree with. EFHW, was your reason really just "he's scumhunting?" Of course scum!yuma scumhunts!").
So we'd need yuma opinions from mail-mi, Eevee, and Walrus, and we'd need 2 of those 3 to be votes. Still possible, I guess.
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I don't intend to vote for yuma today. Unless, like, he comes out tap dancing wearing a neon sign that says "I'M SCUM".
I see your request EFHW...I am at work up until deadline, but I will try to throw something together in the next hour or so.
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Back, won't leave before the deadline (might play poker so unable to write big posts, but can read and vote at the very very least).
I won't vote for yuma. I would vote for Walrus and Voltaire both if I could, slightly prefer Voltaire though.
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So that appears to make yuma non-viable officially then.
I, btw, may not be around at deadline. I'll be here for another hour and will be able to pop in at least once after that, but the odds I'm around at the actual deadline are low. At this point, I like my vote on Walrus, I'll move it to Eevee if I have to, and that appears to be all there would be for me to do.
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Yea, looks like it's either me, Voltaire or Walrus.
I don't want to be not voting.. Vote: Voltaire
L-1!!!
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OK, something else I realized we need to think about - a possible BP claim. Scum knows the setup now, so they know if there is one. So a BP claim is not trustable. Unless we get a counterclaim and have time to switch the lynch (if desired) at the last minute, I can't imagine any reason not to lynch through a BP claim, as we have no way to tell the difference between real and fake claims.
Am I missing something?
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Yea, looks like it's either me, Voltaire or Walrus.
I don't want to be not voting.. Vote: Voltaire
L-1!!!
What have I done that is more scummy than your long-standing Walrus case? (I am not saying you haven't said it, I'm more asking you to direct me to the relevant posts).
Obviously I would love to have you voting Walrus instead. :)
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Vote Count 2.11:
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (2): mail-mi, Voltaire
Voltaire (3): Walrus, yuma, Eevee {L-1}
Not voting (2): Teproc
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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I haven't mentioned it because it didn't seem relevant, but that is correct. In fact, if someone BPT claims at L-1, the real BPT (if he exists) shouldn't even bother to counterclaim.
Since Eevee put Voltaire at L-1, I'll do the same : vote:Walrus
I'll point out that EFHW won't be back before 6:30 pm, and we want her to do a final post (since she's likely to die), so no hammering until then.
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Vote Count 2.12:
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (3): mail-mi, Voltaire, Teproc {L-1}
Voltaire (3): Walrus, yuma, Eevee {L-1}
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m.
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I'll point out that EFHW won't be back before 6:30 pm, and we want her to do a final post (since she's likely to die), so no hammering until then.
The silver lining is she'll have a 1/5 chance of stopping her kill, better if her reads are good.
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Also, potential issue - EFHW seems to have me lowest of her scum candidates today, and doesn't want to lynch Walrus. We need to have as many people around as possible to switch to Eevee to avoid lynching me by default, should someone decide not to hammer Walrus over EFHW's objection, if EFHW decides not to hammer me.
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I was looking at the possible combinations for a lynching today, and, if I'm not mistaken, here's how they look :
Voltaire : Eevee, yuma, EFHW, Walrus (mail-mi ?)
Walrus: Teproc, Eevee, Voltaire, mail-mi
Eevee: Voltaire, EFHW, mail-mi, Walrus, yuma
So more people are willing to lynch Eevee than anyone else. I think that makes him more likely to be town. Well, unless he has a scum partner pretending to be ok with his lynch but who won't actually vote for him unless things look desperate.
Probably nothing, but eh.
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I was looking at the possible combinations for a lynching today, and, if I'm not mistaken, here's how they look :
Voltaire : Eevee, yuma, EFHW, Walrus (mail-mi ?)
Walrus: Teproc, Eevee, Voltaire, mail-mi
Eevee: Voltaire, EFHW, mail-mi, Walrus, yuma
So more people are willing to lynch Eevee than anyone else. I think that makes him more likely to be town. Well, unless he has a scum partner pretending to be ok with his lynch but who won't actually vote for him unless things look desperate.
Probably nothing, but eh.
Would much prefer walrus or eevee to volt but still could if he's the only lynch (which he probably wont be so eh.)
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Yea, looks like it's either me, Voltaire or Walrus.
I don't want to be not voting.. Vote: Voltaire
L-1!!!
What have I done that is more scummy than your long-standing Walrus case? (I am not saying you haven't said it, I'm more asking you to direct me to the relevant posts).
Obviously I would love to have you voting Walrus instead. :)
I'm going back and forth with you guys like all the time..
We've been town together a lot lately - and you've grown tremendously as a town player. You've more than once introduced new ideas I've found helpful or explained something I've intuitively thought in a logical way. I've agreed with most if not all of your reads, even in MC despite it's size. I don't mean to bash you, you've played just.. fine here, but really, just fine. Nothing has stood out, except for some of the reads you've given we disagree on (namely mail-mi, although I admit I don't find your position on him as crazy now that you explained it.. the fact it took you so long is a bit scummy though, maybe you tried to avoid the question until you realized you can't and then made up an answer). Walrus is a harder nut to crack, as I have way way less experience playing with him.
You've been super pleasant to me all day today, despite us both suspecting the other heavily. I don't mean to say you are a jerk who picks fights.. but it still feels a bit weird (although the good kind of weird, I really like it!) My brain might be playing tricks on me to get clarity here, because I do realize town has equal motivation to try to influence others to note vote for them using emotions ("gee he is being so nice to me, what if he is town..").
Man! I don't know! Maybe the move for me would be to hammer walrus as that'd guarantee I get my 2nd preferred lynch through (and that it doesn't spin back to me for example).
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So more people are willing to lynch Eevee than anyone else. I think that makes him more likely to be town. Well, unless he has a scum partner pretending to be ok with his lynch but who won't actually vote for him unless things look desperate.
Probably nothing, but eh.
We potentially get to find out how serious Eevee is in his read on Walrus.
So the "I won't vote Eevee" crowd is just Teproc? I do think scum busses in this situation if they have to, for sure. And I think yuma would fit that definition you're looking for, Teproc, if that is the situation we are in. If.
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I'm going back and forth with you guys like all the time..
We've been town together a lot lately - and you've grown tremendously as a town player. You've more than once introduced new ideas I've found helpful or explained something I've intuitively thought in a logical way. I've agreed with most if not all of your reads, even in MC despite it's size. I don't mean to bash you, you've played just.. fine here, but really, just fine. Nothing has stood out, except for some of the reads you've given we disagree on (namely mail-mi, although I admit I don't find your position on him as crazy now that you explained it.. the fact it took you so long is a bit scummy though, maybe you tried to avoid the question until you realized you can't and then made up an answer). Walrus is a harder nut to crack, as I have way way less experience playing with him.
You've been super pleasant to me all day today, despite us both suspecting the other heavily. I don't mean to say you are a jerk who picks fights.. but it still feels a bit weird (although the good kind of weird, I really like it!) My brain might be playing tricks on me to get clarity here, because I do realize town has equal motivation to try to influence others to note vote for them using emotions ("gee he is being so nice to me, what if he is town..").
Man! I don't know! Maybe the move for me would be to hammer walrus as that'd guarantee I get my 2nd preferred lynch through (and that it doesn't spin back to me for example).
Gotcha. I will say, that sounds like a gut read, so I can't really refute it.
I will also say, if I am lynched for not being super amazing pro-town Superman, that will actually be the biggest compliment ever. No sarcasm.
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Ok.... I am here at least for a while. With baby I really have no idea if I will be present or not from here up until deadline... but will try as I can.
Where do we stand? Two players at L-1...
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Eevee, just in case you didn't see it : don't hammer before EFHW comes back (in an hour or so). I put Walrus at L-1 for clarity's sake mostly.
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Where do we stand? Two players at L-1...
Myself and Walrus at L-1, EFHW has not checked in yet.
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I'm going back and forth with you guys like all the time..
We've been town together a lot lately - and you've grown tremendously as a town player. You've more than once introduced new ideas I've found helpful or explained something I've intuitively thought in a logical way. I've agreed with most if not all of your reads, even in MC despite it's size. I don't mean to bash you, you've played just.. fine here, but really, just fine. Nothing has stood out, except for some of the reads you've given we disagree on (namely mail-mi, although I admit I don't find your position on him as crazy now that you explained it.. the fact it took you so long is a bit scummy though, maybe you tried to avoid the question until you realized you can't and then made up an answer). Walrus is a harder nut to crack, as I have way way less experience playing with him.
You've been super pleasant to me all day today, despite us both suspecting the other heavily. I don't mean to say you are a jerk who picks fights.. but it still feels a bit weird (although the good kind of weird, I really like it!) My brain might be playing tricks on me to get clarity here, because I do realize town has equal motivation to try to influence others to note vote for them using emotions ("gee he is being so nice to me, what if he is town..").
Man! I don't know! Maybe the move for me would be to hammer walrus as that'd guarantee I get my 2nd preferred lynch through (and that it doesn't spin back to me for example).
Gotcha. I will say, that sounds like a gut read, so I can't really refute it.
I will also say, if I am lynched for not being super amazing pro-town Superman, that will actually be the biggest compliment ever. No sarcasm.
I know how you feel, Voltaire (if you are town anyways). The case on me sounds like a gut read + missing the end of day 1, so we are in the same boat there at least.
If you are town, I'm sorry. I guess it is a compliment. :)
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Eevee, just in case you didn't see it : don't hammer before EFHW comes back (in an hour or so). I put Walrus at L-1 for clarity's sake mostly.
obv. I'll be on, no benefit in hammering prematurely.
Playing poker, back in 30min.
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Well this is tricky, because I really don't like the walrus lynch... at all. AT ALL!
I just can't see him getting lynched... so I would vastly prefer an Eevee lynch over that. So I am tempted to go that way, but still think voltaire is the way to go here.
I guess it kinda depends on how EFHW is feeling. I don't think she liked a Walrus lynch that much, so I think I will stay pat on Voltaire.
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I'm back as well, just paging EFHW now.
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And I'm leaving soon, but will return for a bit before deadline (unfortunately not quite sure when).
If I end up being the lynch, please wait to let me have final words.
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All right. Work is busier than I expected; I don't have time to go through and properly do a post by post breakdown for Voltaire, and it's so close to deadline that it might not even be appropriate.
What I did do was go back and look through Volt's first ~30 posts both here and in MC. Other people did this for me, so maybe you should try for Volt too (although I know you guys are collectively more familiar with his style than I am, or than you are with mine). In MC he was all over it right from the start. Asking the right questions, voting judiciously, seeking out threads to unravel. I remember being impressed by his performance--that's why I psychoanalyzed him N1, because I thought he was a valuable player who needed to be cleared! By contrast, here it just feels like a lot of one-liners, vague suspicions, and tunneling Robz for a while. Nothing with nearly the same substance or clarity, although the post count is high.
Now you can call this a gut feeling if you want. But I don't think it's baseless. Feel free to reread and see if you disagree. I know he has also stated that he considers his performance in MC to be exceptional, and maybe we're just lynching him now for not being Superman, but to be honest that seems like the sort of thing despondent scum might say too.
So I'm keeping my vote there. Think of it as a compliment, Volt! :P I'll be around until deadline but still bedeviled by work.
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Well, it turns out I'm back and have to go already, so I have to leave my vote on Walrus. There's no way around this.
Final words, if I'm lynched: apologies for the (retroactively) poor play D1 that led to this situation, as that appears to be all this is. Scum almost certainly has to be participating in this. Please don't forget to look at all the L-1 wagons on D1, as well as the end of this day. And the D1 final vote too. I've put my reads pretty much out there, you can look them up. Mostly though, I think this mislynch truly has to be scum-driven.
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ok, sorry I'm late. I still don't want Walrus. catching up.
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intent to hammer Voltaire. Sorry if that's wrong. Best I can do today. I have to go eat, I'll be back in 20 min or so.
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intent to hammer Voltaire. Sorry if that's wrong. Best I can do today. I have to go eat, I'll be back in 20 min or so.
well let's hope for the best. I am super glad you aren't for a walrus lynch. I am very confident in that area, somewhat less so about voltaire, but as with you I think that is our best bet for today.
One more argument about this...
Day1 we had large wagons on chairs/teproc, faust, robz and voltiare. 2 of those are guaranteed town. One is believed to be town by everyone here. I would hope that town wouldn't be sooo bad to completely whiff on day1. It is certainly possible, but I would hope that it didn't here and if so would point toward voltaire being scum.
I guess Walrus had a big day1 wagon didn't he? So that either makes the situation even worse or means that both EFHW and I are completely off base on this.
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Yeah Walrus got to L-1 on day 1 as well.
I hope I'm wrong about Voltaire, but in any case his flip should be very informative.
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Yeah Walrus got to L-1 on day 1 as well.
I hope I'm wrong about Voltaire, but in any case his flip should be very informative.
Well then for me that means that if voltaire is town then every single wagon from day1 was either on town or on players that I have strong town reads on... and would mean that either I am completely off on my read of Walrus/teproc or mail-mi/eevee is the scumteam and completely avoided all suspicion day1....
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I am having a really hard time posting and accessing the forum... hopefully the forum doesn't go down before EFHW gets back and can vote... or the mods give an extension if the forum does go down... (or maybe it is just me)
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I am having a really hard time posting and accessing the forum... hopefully the forum doesn't go down before EFHW gets back and can vote... or the mods give an extension if the forum does go down... (or maybe it is just me)
If the forums do indeed go down, we will grant an extension. But I think it's just you, I am having zero problems.
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I am having a really hard time posting and accessing the forum... hopefully the forum doesn't go down before EFHW gets back and can vote... or the mods give an extension if the forum does go down... (or maybe it is just me)
If the forums do indeed go down, we will grant an extension. But I think it's just you, I am having zero problems.
Cool.
the last two posts took about 4 attempts each to get through. Not sure why that happens, but occurs about once a week for me.
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had to go for a bit, here again to catch up
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yup, walrus's work on voltaire sort of confirms my gut read? that's what i was saying, but with examples and stuff. i'm keeping my vote on voltaire. alea iacta est?
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Forgot I also wanted to look at the wagon on me:
yuma, Eevee, Voltaire, Teproc. no mail-mi! Also no Walrus, who says he thought I was town.
Someone on that wagon is probably scum.
So, a few last words. It has been great being your IC - I'm so much calmer when no one is suspecting me! I think if Voltaire is scum, then I'd look to Eevee as his partner.
If Voltaire is town then everyone should be back on the table. Someone needs to take a very careful look at yuma again (with your fingers in your ears so the sirens don't tempt you to the island where yuma is always town). I have been wondering why he put Robz to L-1, but didn't want to clutter up the deadline talk with that. Feel free to answer now, tho.
Teproc has only seemed scummy in his choice of Walrus and mail-mi as suspects, but if Voltaire is town it does seem like we will also need to take another look at Walrus.
If there is a roleblocker, I am sunk no matter who I pick, so let's hope there isn't one.
I wish it was possible to be more confident, but we have incomplete information.
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Actually, even if Voltaire is scum everyone should be back on the table.
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I have been wondering why he put Robz to L-1, but didn't want to clutter up the deadline talk with that. Feel free to answer now, tho.
playing the role of ashersky, the thread wasn't progressing and I think it helped. Plus I felt that voltaire's reasoning at that stage in the game was good enough for an early vote.
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Back unexpectedly early! Was I hammered?
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Quick grocery trip.
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Still catching up, EFHW don't hammer! Everyone thinks I should be a god because of M31 but look at town!Volt in B2B or Clue or anything! I was so wrong!
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Still catching up, EFHW don't hammer! Everyone thinks I should be a god because of M31 but look at town!Volt in B2B or Clue or anything! I was so wrong!
that isn't why I am voting you.
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Still catching up, EFHW don't hammer! Everyone thinks I should be a god because of M31 but look at town!Volt in B2B or Clue or anything! I was so wrong!
that isn't why I am voting you.
Yeah but it is for Eevee and Walrus.
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Vote Count 2.13:
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (3): mail-mi, Voltaire, Teproc {L-1}
Voltaire (3): Walrus, yuma, Eevee {L-1}
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m. (24 minutes!)
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Still catching up, EFHW don't hammer! Everyone thinks I should be a god because of M31 but look at town!Volt in B2B or Clue or anything! I was so wrong!
that isn't why I am voting you.
Yeah but it is for Eevee and Walrus.
I am not part of everyone? Sad face...
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Here. Okay with voltaire, still prefer walrus but Voltaire isn't the worst lynch out there.
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I'm super-fast posting, trying to think of what I can possibly to do avoid the IC mishammring me with 20 minutes to go...I'm going to make some mistakes. :P
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EFHW, look at Walrus's voting history. It's similar to mail-mi's. Mail-mi's is bad but gets a mail-mi pass. What about Walrus?
I honestly don't get what you don't like about the case.
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no one has made a case based on his voting history, though.
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If Voltaire is town then everyone should be back on the table. Someone needs to take a very careful look at yuma again (with your fingers in your ears so the sirens don't tempt you to the island where yuma is always town). I have been wondering why he put Robz to L-1, but didn't want to clutter up the deadline talk with that. Feel free to answer now, tho.
Teproc has only seemed scummy in his choice of Walrus and mail-mi as suspects, but if Voltaire is town it does seem like we will also need to take another look at Walrus.
Yes, yuma has mislynched faust, EFHW, and myself, and been clearly behaving differently. I wish I hadn't wobbled on yuma so much.
Your doomsday scenario is real, yuma. REAL
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While that wasn't my main case, I definitely did include his voting record in it. I'll find the post.
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EFHW, look at Walrus's voting history. It's similar to mail-mi's. Mail-mi's is bad but gets a mail-mi pass. What about Walrus?
I honestly don't get what you don't like about the case.
No. I think hte point was that neither were bad. Both were similar to each other and to others around them... at least that is what I took from it.....
For reference:
If we leave out RVS, then on DAY 1:
Eevee had 1 vote on 1 person
EFHW had 4 votes on 4 different people,
Voltaire had 4 votes on 4 different people,
chairs had 5 votes on 3 different people,
Robz had 5 votes on 4 different people,
mail-mi had 6 votes for 5 different people,
Walrus had 7 votes for 5 different people,
faust had 7 votes for 5 different people,
yuma had 8 votes for 5 different people.
mail-mi hammered once.
yuma put Robz to L-1.
chairs/now Teproc put faust at L-1
Walrus put Voltaire at L-1
faust put both Robz and Walrus at L-1.
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no one has made a case based on his voting history, though.
I know, I'm trying to change your mind with 17 minutes left, I clearly need something new because you're not convinced by the old stuff. Go look at the very post you made about mail-mi's votes compared to everyone else.
Look, I'm not certain Walrus is scum but I'm certain I am town! I have to fight as hard as I can to change this.
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Oh, right, faust was in there. Never mind then. :'(
Just hammer me and get it over with, there's clearly no convincing you.
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I'm not thrilled with the case on you Voltaire, just more than the others. You are passionate in your own defense!
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Here it is :
Fine, I'll unvote. Unless mail-mi suddenly becomes a viable lynch, consider my vote to be on Walrus though.
I understand why you're not convinced EFHW. I'm mostly coming at this from a POE perspective, so I'm aware that the case against Walrus isn't incredibly strong. I'm pushing it because I believe Voltaire would be a mislynch.
Speaking of pushing on Walrus, I took a look at his voting record :
- #62/70/86 : The whole vote/unvote/vote thing with faust
- #109 : Votes Robz (3) for poor contributions and posting only when called out on lurking
- #144 : Votes EFHW (2), explicitely sheeping yuma. He goes on to explain better, stating that EFHW's posts have no content and doesn't like that she's accusing him. He also points to a EFHW/mail-mi scumteam
- #297 : Votes Robz again (L-1). Doesn't like Robz daring people to vote for him and finds Robz's vote on chairs "interesting"
- #329 : Votes chairs (3), for empty posts and calls his "lynch mafia not scum" a platitude (it was about voting for faust rather than Robz)
- #473 : Votes Voltaire (L-1) : Finds him uncharacteristically unhelpful
Day 2
- #516 : Votes Voltaire (2), for reasons I don't entirely understand (beside the day 1 thing) :
I feel like we have had a really good day1.
I think we've had the sort of D1 that will lead to a great D2 but high odds for a crappy lynch D1.
This was the quote that stuck out most in my mind from the conclusion of D1. I'll go back and reread more carefully later after work, but I'm gonna vote: Voltaire initially as well.
- #748 : Votes Eevee (2). No reasoning given, so I guess he was sheeping EFHW (now IC) ?
- #809 : Votes Voltaire (L-1) : No reasoning, so presumably the same reasons as before + yuma's case ?
That's three L-1 votes, two of them on Voltaire. The first one I find quite weak, the second one I can see a little more.
Mostly, there's a lot of sheeping there.
PPE : 8 unread posts.
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I'm not thrilled with the case on you Voltaire, just more than the others. You are passionate in your own defense!
Thank you for that. :)
And this will be a compliment from Eevee and everyone else. Even if Eevee is scum, because he got town to buy it!
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you guys have one fewer person to pick from than I do. There are 6 of you, 2 of you are scum. I'll go with Eevee or yuma if the votes are there.
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you guys have one fewer person to pick from than I do. There are 6 of you, 2 of you are scum. I'll go with Eevee or yuma if the votes are there.
There's thirteen minutes. I don't think it's gonna happen. Just hammer someone (preferably walrus.)
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I will go to Eevee or yuma.
vote: yuma
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And I am here until deadline to go back to Walrus if EFHW goes there.
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I don't think there's a fourth vote on yuma. The votes are there for Eevee I guess (not mine though).
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noooooo
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i do not want to vote for yuma.
the alternative sounds all kinds of terrible, though.
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I am kinda concerned about all the Eevee votes lying around, Teproc. EFHW what do you think about that? 9 minutes.
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Arghhhh!
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Vote Count 2.14:
Eevee (1): EFHW
Walrus (2)[/b]: mail-mi, Teproc
Voltaire (3)[/b]: Walrus, yuma, Eevee {L-1}
Yuma (1): Voltaire
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Day 2 ends November 13 at 8:00 p.m. (9 minutes!)
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Well...that was fun.
vote: Walrus
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I'm switching to Walrus. Voltaire is very believable. My town reads are on him. If I'm wrong, then sorry yuma.
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I'm switching to Walrus. Voltaire is very believable. My town reads are on him. If I'm wrong, then sorry yuma.
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Thank you thank you thank you! Fingers crossed on Walrus, good luck with your JK tonight...
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Well...that was fun.
vote: Walrus
What the hell was that ?
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vote: eevee
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HATE THIS!
vote: Walrus
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This is insane.
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Well...that was fun.
vote: Walrus
What the hell was that ?
Trying to switch to Eevee is all.
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HATE THIS!
vote: Walrus
BOO! HISSSSSSSSSSS!
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[THREAD LOCKED
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Vote Count 2.Final:
Eevee (1): Yuma
Walrus (4): mail-mi, Teproc, Voltaire, EFHW
Voltaire (2): Walrus, Eevee
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
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WalrusMcFishSr has been lynched. He was Walder Frey, 1-shot bulletproof townie.
Night 2 begins, and will last for 48 hours.
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It was the third day. The lords returned to the council room, still no closer to finding the identity of their usurpers. When they walked in, they were surprised to see a singer with a harp standing next to the table. Immediately, he began to sing:
And who are you, the proud lord said,
that I must bow so low?
Only a cat of a different coat,
that's all the truth I know.
In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
a lion still has claws,
And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
as long and sharp as yours.
And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
that lord of Lannister,
But now the rains weep o'er his hall,
with no one there to hear.
Yes now the rains weep o'er his hall,
and not a soul to hear.
Fear not my lords, your time has come
no need to run or cry
for Robert's realm is almost gone
and you all soon shall die!
EFHW, also known as Tywin Lannister, town Jailkeeper, has been killed.
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Vote Count 3.0:
Not Voting (5): Teproc, Voltaire, Yuma, Mail-mi, Eevee
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 3 ends November 22 at 8:00 p.m.
Thread Unlocked!!
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BLAH!!!!
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I guess I should say no one vote... We are at mylo obviously.
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Yeah, so about the end of day 2...
I screwed up. I was wrong about Walrus, but I don't feel too bad about that. I think I had decent enough reasons to vote for him.
No, where I really screwed up is about Voltaire. Specifically, this :
Well...that was fun.
vote: Walrus
What the hell was that ?
When I read that, I thought : "so... is this an admission of guilt or what ?". But I wasn't sure so I just put it out there to see what EFHW would have to say. Then she hammered Walrus.
What I should have done, is unvoted. Possibly even hammered Voltaire right then and there. Needless to say, it seems pretty clear to me that I've been played, and that I think Voltaire is scum. But maybe you guys see a different explanation for this quote ?
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Huh?
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So I take it you don't read it that way ? Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think you'd say that kind of stuff if you were town and about to die. It read to me like "well, I almost got you guys", because he thought EFHW was going to hammer him ?
Maybe I'm just seeing things.
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So I take it you don't read it that way ? Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think you'd say that kind of stuff if you were town and about to die. It read to me like "well, I almost got you guys", because he thought EFHW was going to hammer him ?
Maybe I'm just seeing things.
I had a different interpretation of it, but I want to hear from voltaire what it was before I say anything... and I would appreciate if everyone else kept their opinions to themselves until that point.
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BLAH!!!!
This is exactly the thing scum types after an IC lynch. Although, considering both the PRs are gone, this could be a reaction from a townie. Ugh, mylo! My top scum read is now Eevee, followed by yuma. Really certain it's eevee, and the partner could be either yuma or voltaire but its gotta be eevee.
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Well that went extremely sucky. Let's do the miracle comeback though!!
I'm off to bed now, just checked in to see if we have lynched in Toy Story. I'm having thanksgiving with family tomorrow (it's not a holiday here, so we are celebrating at a weird time.. celebrating though because we be cool!), I'll likely be sneaking in to check from phone every opportune moment but longer posts might have to wait until sunday. At least this complies well with yuma's request!
Nobody vote yet! Since we have newer players, saying this is probably in order.
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BLAH!!!!
This is exactly the thing scum types after an IC lynch. Although, considering both the PRs are gone, this could be a reaction from a townie. Ugh, mylo! My top scum read is now Eevee, followed by yuma. Really certain it's eevee, and the partner could be either yuma or voltaire but its gotta be eevee.
??? Admission?
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BLAH!!!!
This is exactly the thing scum types after an IC lynch. Although, considering both the PRs are gone, this could be a reaction from a townie. Ugh, mylo! My top scum read is now Eevee, followed by yuma. Really certain it's eevee, and the partner could be either yuma or voltaire but its gotta be eevee.
??? Admission?
Let me elaborate:
Yuma "BLAH! The BP townie was lynched and IC JK was killed!"
mail-mi: "Ugh I hate mylo!"
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I see both as expressions of frustration out of the unfortunate situation town is in. Seems extremely hypocritical to criticize someone for doing it and then do the same in the very next sentence.
Nah, hypocritical actually isn't the word I'm looking for. Scum trying to fling poo on everyone desperately seems more accurate!
I disagree with it being scummy by the way, I'm fine with voicing displeasure of a gamestate that isn't good for your team (or the team you represent to be a part of). Mail-mi calling yuma out on it feels extremely fake though.. how can you think something is scummy and then do it the very next sentence unless you are scum yourself?
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And I don't buy that you think saying "i dont like that person getting nightkilled" is scummy but "i dont like us being in mylo" is not. What's the difference?
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And I don't buy that you think saying "i dont like that person getting nightkilled" is scummy but "i dont like us being in mylo" is not. What's the difference?
1 is feigning sadness for town "Awwww DANG IT Jailkeeper died!"
2 is General dislike of mylo.
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And I don't buy that you think saying "i dont like that person getting nightkilled" is scummy but "i dont like us being in mylo" is not. What's the difference?
1 is feigning sadness for town "Awwww DANG IT Jailkeeper died!"
2 is General dislike of mylo.
1 is general dislike of losing our jailkeeper
2 is feigning sadness for town being in mylo
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And I don't buy that you think saying "i dont like that person getting nightkilled" is scummy but "i dont like us being in mylo" is not. What's the difference?
1 is feigning sadness for town "Awwww DANG IT Jailkeeper died!"
2 is General dislike of mylo.
1 is general dislike of losing our jailkeeper
2 is feigning sadness for town being in mylo
2 is me not liking being in the mylo situation altogether.
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So I take it you don't read it that way ? Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think you'd say that kind of stuff if you were town and about to die. It read to me like "well, I almost got you guys", because he thought EFHW was going to hammer him ?
Maybe I'm just seeing things.
I had a different interpretation of it, but I want to hear from voltaire what it was before I say anything... and I would appreciate if everyone else kept their opinions to themselves until that point.
All it was was a conclusion to the "let's try to switch the lynch to Eevee movement," which a couple people raised as a possibility. I think I was the only one who moved my vote, nobody followed, it clearly wasn't happening, so I put my vote back on Walrus since it was needed to avoid a non-me lynch. Hence, a sarcastic "that was fun" about how Operation QuickLynch Eevee died before it began.
As for the bigger picture - first off, EFHW, you were not played by me. I'm certain that's what you're thinking right now, and trust me, you made the right call. We all collectively made the wrong call about Walrus.
I know for a fact that means we're facing an expert scum team, because every lynch and near-lynch has been on town. Walrus on D1, Robz D1, myself D1, faust D1, EFHW D2, and Walrus (again) D2. I personally am putting everyone back on the table. I don't have time to dig into this game this weekend, so I hope everyone understands if I don't hit this with a vengeance until Monday. We have the time to do this right.
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i really see that being any different from what yuma did as splitting hairs. certainly the difference can't be big enough where you think one is notably scummy and other is just a normal thing you do.
not trying to convince you here though. now off to sleeps for real!
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And I don't buy that you think saying "i dont like that person getting nightkilled" is scummy but "i dont like us being in mylo" is not. What's the difference?
1 is feigning sadness for town "Awwww DANG IT Jailkeeper died!"
2 is General dislike of mylo.
I don't care about EFHW dying. We all knew she was going to die. I am FURIOUS that Walrus was lynched.
I am really thinking I want to vote for mail-mi. Being on both mislynches, playing a super scummy game all around, allowing all of us to just pass it off as his meta and then coming out of the gates casting suspicion at me for expressing frustration (justified frustration given the completely obvious result) is telling to me.
But I can't shake the feel of voltaire, but I think mail-mi is looking to be a very, very good candidate.
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All it was was a conclusion to the "let's try to switch the lynch to Eevee movement," which a couple people raised as a possibility. I think I was the only one who moved my vote, nobody followed, it clearly wasn't happening, so I put my vote back on Walrus since it was needed to avoid a non-me lynch. Hence, a sarcastic "that was fun" about how Operation QuickLynch Eevee died before it began.
That's how I saw this. I find it kinda strange that Teproc could see it any other way and to be honest wonder about him bringing it up.
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Yeah, I don't know what you guys are saying about EFHW dying. We knew 100% she was dying, since there is a roleblocker.
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Well, the first thing is, it wasn't Eevee that voltaire had his vote on, it was yuma. The Eevee lynch was also a possibility, but that didn't make sense to me. It seemed like he was scrambling to make any lynch happen, which I don't think is what you would do as town. Of course you want to survive, but you still want actual scum to be lynched, especially if you're VT (which Voltaire is, if he is town), since there's a risk of hitting the last PR.
I guess I don't have a better reasoning for it, that's just what I thought when I read it. It might be because, by the end of day 2, when Voltaire started fighting for his line a half-hour before the deadline, it kinda rubbed me the wrong way. It's perfectly legitimate to fight for your life as town of course, but it worried me a bit.
Do you guys really think no wagon ever hit scum this game ? Voltaire and I are the only ones who have been wagonned and are still alive (well, I wasn't but chairs was on day 1).
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And I don't buy that you think saying "i dont like that person getting nightkilled" is scummy but "i dont like us being in mylo" is not. What's the difference?
1 is feigning sadness for town "Awwww DANG IT Jailkeeper died!"
2 is General dislike of mylo.
I don't care about EFHW dying. We all knew she was going to die. I am FURIOUS that Walrus was lynched.
I read it that you were furious at both.
And yes ugh the walrus lynch. I was so sure...
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Eevee, mail-mi, what do you think about the "Well, that was fun" post ?
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As for the bigger picture - first off, EFHW, you were not played by me. I'm certain that's what you're thinking right now, and trust me, you made the right call. We all collectively made the wrong call about Walrus.
I know for a fact that means we're facing an expert scum team, because every lynch and near-lynch has been on town. Walrus on D1, Robz D1, myself D1, faust D1, EFHW D2, and Walrus (again) D2. I personally am putting everyone back on the table. I don't have time to dig into this game this weekend, so I hope everyone understands if I don't hit this with a vengeance until Monday. We have the time to do this right.
This post indicates that he is moving toward lynching me. I am sure of it.
Except that there is one key point that I already brought up.
For voltaire to be town that means that every single wagon brought up on day1 was on town. Every single one. That would require epic fail proportions for town....
But perhaps even more important is this. The new normal for mafia is to have a little bit of suspicion cast on themselves day1. That is something that has been established by f.ds--especially Robz--in the last few games. If you don't get suspicion cast on you early it probably means you are scum--or an IC--so scum tries to cast a little bit of suspicion on themselves. Because if they do just enough and survive the lynch... they are much more likely to survive through the game.
I really think voltaire is scum. He has escaped narrowly the lynch two days in a row. Both times the alternative lynch resulted in a mislynch.
I can't believe town would be so bad or that mafia would allow themselves to go completely unscathed through day1... I just can't.
I am ready to vote for voltaire. I don't think anything is going to sway me in this. I think mail-mi is his most likely partner.
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And I don't buy that you think saying "i dont like that person getting nightkilled" is scummy but "i dont like us being in mylo" is not. What's the difference?
1 is feigning sadness for town "Awwww DANG IT Jailkeeper died!"
2 is General dislike of mylo.
I don't care about EFHW dying. We all knew she was going to die. I am FURIOUS that Walrus was lynched.
I read it that you were furious at both.
And yes ugh the walrus lynch. I was so sure...
so sure that it would end up as a mislynch? Yeah...
Why would I be furious that scum killed EFHW? Was that ever up for debate? Or did you and your partner talk about it in your scum QT about killing someone else?
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Do you guys really think no wagon ever hit scum this game ? Voltaire and I are the only ones who have been wagonned and are still alive (well, I wasn't but chairs was on day 1).
No. I refuse to believe that. I refuse scum would allow that to happen. I believe voltaire is scum.
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Again, I feel the need to point out that I/chairs have also actually been at L-1 on day 1. So if you think town is slightly competent, Voltaire is not the only option.
I think town being that incompetent is very possible though. I know those are very old games for you, but in MII I don't think Robz was put at L-1 in the first two days or so (and Galzria was never really suspected) and pingpongsam and Young_Nick were also never big lynch candidates in MVII IIRC.
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Yeah, I just checked and in MVII, pps had 1 vote on him in the entirety of the game, and Young_Nick had 2, including an self-vote in RVS. And it doesn't seem like Robz was ever at L-1 in MII.
Maybe you think town is more competent now, but if we have a yuma-Eevee scum team (just an example), mafia is also very experienced. So I don't think we can make the assumption that scum has been under pressure at any point.
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Again, I feel the need to point out that I/chairs have also actually been at L-1 on day 1. So if you think town is slightly competent, Voltaire is not the only option.
I think town being that incompetent is very possible though. I know those are very old games for you, but in MII I don't think Robz was put at L-1 in the first two days or so (and Galzria was never really suspected) and pingpongsam and Young_Nick were also never big lynch candidates in MVII IIRC.
I still think you are town, as there are many points which point to you being town, which furthers the situation even more... which means that town had 1. faust 2. EFHW 3. Robz 4. chairs town wagons day1. 5. Voltaire if town... 5 town wagons day1 in a 9 player game is just unfathomable at the point where we are in f.ds.
You point out old games where it has happened... 1. I am thinking we had more large wagons than they did back then. You have reread them more recently, but in general most days you get 2-3 wagons that get to L-1 or L-2 in a given day. Day1 here we had a bunch! 2. f.ds has progressed a lot and the way that town wins games is adapting to the meta strategies that scum are using. It is the only way town wins games. Currently the meta has shifted so that scum needs to be suspected somewhat day1 otherwise you end up like shraeye/voltaire did in WWDWM mafia dead on days 3/4.
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I see your argument is that scum would want to be under pressure. Got it, that makes more sense.
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but if we have a yuma-Eevee scum team (just an example), mafia is also very experienced.
and would be experienced enough to know that to win you have to be under some amount of heat to get through a game.
PPE: yes, some pressure, but not enough to get properly lynched.
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As for the bigger picture - first off, EFHW, you were not played by me. I'm certain that's what you're thinking right now, and trust me, you made the right call. We all collectively made the wrong call about Walrus.
I know for a fact that means we're facing an expert scum team, because every lynch and near-lynch has been on town. Walrus on D1, Robz D1, myself D1, faust D1, EFHW D2, and Walrus (again) D2. I personally am putting everyone back on the table. I don't have time to dig into this game this weekend, so I hope everyone understands if I don't hit this with a vengeance until Monday. We have the time to do this right.
This post indicates that he is moving toward lynching me. I am sure of it.
Except that there is one key point that I already brought up.
For voltaire to be town that means that every single wagon brought up on day1 was on town. Every single one. That would require epic fail proportions for town....
But perhaps even more important is this. The new normal for mafia is to have a little bit of suspicion cast on themselves day1. That is something that has been established by f.ds--especially Robz--in the last few games. If you don't get suspicion cast on you early it probably means you are scum--or an IC--so scum tries to cast a little bit of suspicion on themselves. Because if they do just enough and survive the lynch... they are much more likely to survive through the game.
I really think voltaire is scum. He has escaped narrowly the lynch two days in a row. Both times the alternative lynch resulted in a mislynch.
I can't believe town would be so bad or that mafia would allow themselves to go completely unscathed through day1... I just can't.
I am ready to vote for voltaire. I don't think anything is going to sway me in this. I think mail-mi is his most likely partner.
Actually yuma I am leaning more town(ier) towards you based on how yesterday went down, but I know I have to avoid you lynching me first!
So if you are so set on me being scum, can I make Robz spin in his grave and ask you to help me lynch my partner? Since there are two scum out there who are not me, and yes, I know this means that town has been epic fail, but I have the "benefit" of knowing that we have. It sucks, but by being set on me you're being set on losing the game.
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Actually yuma I am leaning more town(ier) towards you based on how yesterday went down, but I know I have to avoid you lynching me first!
So if you are so set on me being scum, can I make Robz spin in his grave and ask you to help me lynch my partner? Since there are two scum out there who are not me, and yes, I know this means that town has been epic fail, but I have the "benefit" of knowing that we have. It sucks, but by being set on me you're being set on losing the game.
and who do you think that would be?
I am willing to wait for you to due your diligence before casting a vote on you at the least.
Although if you aren't scum then either we have been completely fooled by Teproc or the scum team is mail-mi/eevee (possible I guess) so I guess it shouldn't be too hard to guess who you will set your sights on.
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Well yeah, my two likeliest candidates would be Eevee/mail-mi but that's just a "gut re-read" so to speak. Due diligence required, I could still decide you're most likely, but it's not where I'm leaning at all right now.
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Eevee, mail-mi, what do you think about the "Well, that was fun" post ?
I didn't get any read other than null off of it.
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Vote Count 3.1:
Not Voting (5): Teproc, Voltaire, Yuma, Mail-mi, Eevee
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 3 ends November 22 at 8:00 p.m.
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FYI
I don't want this game to get to the point where it stagnates and dies making today and tomorrow if we have one nearly impossible to remember...
So I am planning on voting Tuesday night. Tuesday is the start of my on week anyways. Hopefully that is enough time for everyone to say what needs to be said. I don't think we need to take the full 7 days
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Yeah, weekends are often like this I guess..
However, I'm leaving to the airport in 4-5 hours, so I'll try to kick it back up before that with as many thoughts as I can think of.
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I'm back, like I said I would be, and will post my thoughts and intended vote today.
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I almost certainly want to lynch mail-mi. I'm still working on a re-read, but right at the start of the game it was all entirely town talking to town (Eevee is the exception in that his alignment is unknown) and the more I think about the game, the more I realize most of the big events turned out to be town-v-town. Which makes me think scum is lurking. Even though I'm honestly not sure at all who would be mail-mi's partner, I'm pretty sure I want to lynch him. I think Eevee would be my second choice, then yuma. This of course is all pending finishing this re-read, but let's get the discussion today kicked off.
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Yep. Yep. mail-mi/Eevee/yuma, I feel pretty good about that. Yuma and Eevee both seem like plausible partners for mail-mi. Intent to vote mail-mi but not until, like, tomorrow or something (since yuma has also said he will vote then, presumably for me).
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Yep. Yep. mail-mi/Eevee/yuma, I feel pretty good about that. Yuma and Eevee both seem like plausible partners for mail-mi. Intent to vote mail-mi but not until, like, tomorrow or something (since yuma has also said he will vote then, presumably for me).
if this is all you can say... then yes i will vote for you. or are you going to delve further into this? You don't necessarily have to I guess... i am not planning on rehashing out cases myself, but i am interested in why you now think mail-mi is scum when before you were much less sure
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Yep. Yep. mail-mi/Eevee/yuma, I feel pretty good about that. Yuma and Eevee both seem like plausible partners for mail-mi. Intent to vote mail-mi but not until, like, tomorrow or something (since yuma has also said he will vote then, presumably for me).
if this is all you can say... then yes i will vote for you. or are you going to delve further into this? You don't necessarily have to I guess... i am not planning on rehashing out cases myself, but i am interested in why you now think mail-mi is scum when before you were much less sure
Because basically everyone who was talking throughout the game (you excepted) has turned out to be town. I stand by compelling reasons to find Teproc town, they've been stated and hashed out all game. This leads me to believe scum lurked. That would point to mail-mi/Eevee.
mail-mi has the poor voting history and strange statements from today (I'll dig them up in a bit). You had a townier reaction to the end of yesterday, but you could definitely still be scum. Eevee has a bad history with actilurking (from memory), tunneling Walrus, and his response to the end of yesterday. So that's mail-mi/Eevee/you. I'm still re-reading. But as long as I'm not wrong on Teproc, I've got a 67% chance of getting this right today, and I think mail-mi gives me the best shot.
I definitely want to hear your thoughts on everyone else, unless you posted them already. Because if I'm scum I have to have a partner, yuma, so I want your reads on everyone else.
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The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Something to keep note of, for sure.
So, mail-mi, you've kept note of it. What do you think now?
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this is a very good point.
I think voltaire/mail-mi is most likely...
followed by mail-mi/eevee...
So maybe the better choice is to vote for mail-mi.
I agree with you in assuming teproc is town. if he is scum we lost this game long ago....
i guess i need to look at volt-eevee more closely... that will be my goal for today
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Like Voltaire's quick first post, this is my feeling on everyone before doing any rereads:
Teproc: If scum it's an ehunt-in-casino-level performance that fooled everyone. On the other hand, we've done absolutely horrendous this far, so scum obviously is fooling us pretty hard. I should reread him to determine if the townread is based on actual gameplay or just being thankful for him subbing and impressed at him being so savvy already, but I just can't fathom him being the likeliest to be scum (even if he is scum, his partner should be easier to find first).
yuma: I always find yuma impossible to read, so I guess he shouldn't be off the table, even if I really don't see a reason to suspect him. Voltaire, mailmi, do you have any ideas as to how scum yuma is different than town yuma? I feel I honestly don't.
mail-mi: alarmbells, alarmbells everywheeeeeere. yuma and teproc, mail-mi and voltaire are my top scum reads, how do you feel about the fact voltaire is advocating his lynch now (saying he is, at least)? would that be a viable distancing strategy for scum, or would they just try to get a mislynch at all costs here? I dont feel good about being convinced off of mailmi yesterday.
voltaire: I definitely feel Voltaire is misrepresenting a bunch of thing today (I'd be more specific if he was). I wish we had just lynched him yesterday.. I don't know what to make of him missing the lynch so narrowly, it's puzzling.
No intent to vote for anyone yet, but this is where I'm coming from to today. I think mail-mi has more viable partners (havent reread, but gut feeling is he could be with absolutely anyone because why not?). Rereading all of Voltaire sounds daunting though, Volt, do you remember any specific interactions between you and someone alive I could look at? Something to prove your towniness?
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Interesting. Aside from Voltaire/yuma, mail-mi/Eevee strikes me as being the least likely scum-team. I believe scum would have made an effort to have at least an active member. Eevee also followed my case on mail-mi when no one was really buying it. I guess it could be a safe way to distance themselves, but it actually generated a lot of talk about mail-mi, even though it didn't go anywhere eventually.
I'll do a post later, but I'm leaning towards voting Voltaire right now.
PPE : haven't read Eevee's post.
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I mean I still think you aren't understanding probabilities if you think that makes no sense.
It's like, someone has a history of being capable of bussing. That means that person shouldn't receive any towncred for pushing for someone who flipped scum? Of course not, Robz has played 50 games, of course there are counterexamples but far and away more often he has played a reasonable, normal style. There has got to be some balancing acts so he wouldn't just be an open book, but even if he is splitting his course of action "80% time I do what helps my faction now, 20% I hurt my faction to throw them off"*, we can still draw conclusions from his actions, even if they aren't definite conclusions.
That does look like mailmi wanting to cast suspicion on me for invalid reasons though. Much like he tried to cast suspicion on yuma today while doing the same thing himself.
*I think Robz does/used to do that as town as well, which I've always disagreed with but is very not relevant here.
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Here's something I am definitely keeping in mind (and Teproc if you're town you should to): I am the easiest mislynch in the universe right now. Why? Because even though I am town, acknowledging that fact requires us to have driven up wagons on only town players the entire game. The truth requires admitting that this has (so far) been one of the worst towns in recent memory. But that's the situation we're in. It's so "easy" to say "town is never that bad, surely this means Voltaire is scum" and be done with it, but that loses us the game.
I think voltaire/mail-mi is most likely...
followed by mail-mi/eevee...
So maybe the better choice is to vote for mail-mi.
This is what I was trying to do with what got called "bad logic" yesterday, btw. In that if you throw out Eevee/Voltaire you should vote for mail-mi even if he's not your strongest read just because he's POEd into every remaining team.
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That does look like mailmi wanting to cast suspicion on me for invalid reasons though. Much like he tried to cast suspicion on yuma today while doing the same thing himself.
That's what I was getting at.
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No intent to vote for anyone yet, but this is where I'm coming from to today. I think mail-mi has more viable partners (havent reread, but gut feeling is he could be with absolutely anyone because why not?). Rereading all of Voltaire sounds daunting though, Volt, do you remember any specific interactions between you and someone alive I could look at? Something to prove your towniness?
I don't have that many posts, just re-read me. You have a crazy number of town flips at this point too.
Also, do you now think I am scummy? I think that's new. Your case on me yesterday was just that I wasn't "creative" but was still pro-town. Actually I feel that this is a big difference.
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Interesting. Aside from Voltaire/yuma, mail-mi/Eevee strikes me as being the least likely scum-team. I believe scum would have made an effort to have at least an active member. Eevee also followed my case on mail-mi when no one was really buying it. I guess it could be a safe way to distance themselves, but it actually generated a lot of talk about mail-mi, even though it didn't go anywhere eventually.
I'll do a post later, but I'm leaning towards voting Voltaire right now.
PPE : haven't read Eevee's post.
i think i was at least as vocal in my attempts of getting mailmi lynched yesterday as you were. no one else wanted anything to do with the lynch, which i still find weeeird and actually evidence of mailmi lynch being good for today - his partner had all the reasons to steer us away from him (that clearly happened, we got steer away of the lynch of a very scummy player and lynched town instead.. this should be especially clear to voltaire if he is town, because he'd know that the other lynchee was to be town as well). i was absolutely trying to push for mailmi as hard as i could until voltaire convinced me that because of meta-reasons, mailmi isnt the best lynch for that day, so thats why i'm confused about voltaire pushing him now. mailmi-voltaire feels like a very plausible scum team, but that one piece doesnt seem to fit (thats why i asked about it earlier). I also disagree with voltaire saying "eevee was tunnelling walrus yesterday", i believe I was on mailmi most of the day and tried to get other people to join me, i did come back to walrus after voltaire himself convinced me that mailmi isnt happening/shouldnt happen. i was on walrus all day 1, but i really wasnt here much of day 1 and i never found anything i found better than my walrus case (day1 that is). i actually think i've dfirted to playing day 1s like that, i was on archetype for pretty much the entire monsterfighting dicerolling jimm-game that got cancelled (i was town, so was archetype). the actilurking accusation is just as false in my opinion, i was probably absent day 1 as i always am, but there was nothing active about it and i think since it got interesting, i've been as active as anyone i think. that reminds me, postcount to follow in next post!
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Scum certainly busses today if they need to, btw.
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Eevee, clearly I need to re-read you yesterday - BUT - I don't remember you actually fighting for a mail-mi lynch, I just remember you fighting for him to be considered. That's certainly something scum would do to a partner.
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vote: EFHW
Here is what I am seeing.... she is taking a somewhat similar stance to what theorel took in the last game. (not a perfect comparison, but I think comparable enough) Starting here...
Well, this is pretty interesting. It's so early I have no read on Robz. Everything he has I could him doing as either alignment. So I don't feel like lynching him, or defending him. Assuming he would flip town, since that is most likely, what would we have learned about the people voting him? I'm on phone right now, so I'll try to look at that when I'm on a computer.
middle ground stance, stating that robz isn't scummy or townie, but instead more interested in people on the wagon... (same as theorel about sudgy last game)
last game theorel jumped on nkirbit for voting for sudgy. In this game EFHW is instead jumping on eevee for defending robz...
The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.
This doesn't make sense coming from Eevee who has played with Robz countless times and knows he would absolutely say that as scum or town. He could be protecting a scumbuddy or looking for towncred vote: Eevee.
Right now I am deliberating between posting this and holding off to see where it goes. Because right now I anticipate that if the wagon on Robz stays at ~ L-1 for a while EFHW will starting defending Robz more and more (assuming of course that Robz is town, something I am actually thinking more and more likely... again another reason to move my vote just because a derphammer is always a possibility...) in the same way that theorel over time expressed a town read on sudgy after starting null on him... and also pressing more on eevee. So is seeing if that case builds worth giving town my read right now. I think it is generally always better to tell town what a fellow townie is thinking than to hold back ideas so I'll go with it.
This EFHW case seems a little constructed. It's basically this: "EHFW is acting like theorel did in that other game, only not exactly. I think she will do this and that in the future, and that would be scummy."
So EFHW has done something which weakly remsembles theorel's behaviour in M32, and you vote for her for something that she hasn't even done yet. In order for this to not look suspicious, you say "it's always better to tell town what you are thinking" which sounds reasonable but is actually false (see the whole secret case stuff in M31). It seems the reason you posted this now is more that you fear that this whole case is going to fall apart if EFHW doesn't do what you expect her to.
Since we now have flips on faust and EFHW, this does make yuma look worse. But it doesn't make him scum.
(pointing this out to make sure I don't get tunnel vision on mail-mi/Eevee, as if yuma is scum I need to make sure I vote for his partner)
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No intent to vote for anyone yet, but this is where I'm coming from to today. I think mail-mi has more viable partners (havent reread, but gut feeling is he could be with absolutely anyone because why not?). Rereading all of Voltaire sounds daunting though, Volt, do you remember any specific interactions between you and someone alive I could look at? Something to prove your towniness?
I don't have that many posts, just re-read me. You have a crazy number of town flips at this point too.
Also, do you now think I am scummy? I think that's new. Your case on me yesterday was just that I wasn't "creative" but was still pro-town. Actually I feel that this is a big difference.
Well walrus's flip changed a lot, but admittedly i now have knee-jerk reaction to you trying to paint me with a scummy brush. i do think it's appropriate though, scum has the incentive to make other people look bad right now. i'm so puzzled about you going after mailmi like that, i'd really like input from teproc and yuma as to what that means to the likelihood of you two being a team.
The way of catching experts like you and yuma is not by "he said this and he wouldnt say that as town!" or "he posted this much and he would do that as town!". It doesn't work that way. You are caught by PoE (and maybe here by analyzing interactions - not only what you did but what you have done in relation to others.
In isolation, no, I don't think you are particularly scummy.. mailmi is definitely leagues scummier. I think teproc is town. I think yuma is townier than you. that leaves just and mailmi...but i really cant get over the fact you now seem to have seen the light about him. how do you explain your change of heart on him by the way? yesterday we had a pretty long argument about you taking him off the lynch pool, and now we have one flip and he is suddenly your top scum read? (i'm actually realizing reasons for the initial feelings i had as i write them.)
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Eevee, clearly I need to re-read you yesterday - BUT - I don't remember you actually fighting for a mail-mi lynch, I just remember you fighting for him to be considered. That's certainly something scum would do to a partner.
I was definitely really trying to get him lynched - first step to that would have been to get other people at least to consider him! At some point you need to move to more viable lynches, you know? But yea, reread it!
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Well walrus's flip changed a lot, but admittedly i now have knee-jerk reaction to you trying to paint me with a scummy brush. i do think it's appropriate though, scum has the incentive to make other people look bad right now. i'm so puzzled about you going after mailmi like that, i'd really like input from teproc and yuma as to what that means to the likelihood of you two being a team.
The way of catching experts like you and yuma is not by "he said this and he wouldnt say that as town!" or "he posted this much and he would do that as town!". It doesn't work that way. You are caught by PoE (and maybe here by analyzing interactions - not only what you did but what you have done in relation to others.
In isolation, no, I don't think you are particularly scummy.. mailmi is definitely leagues scummier. I think teproc is town. I think yuma is townier than you. that leaves just and mailmi...but i really cant get over the fact you now seem to have seen the light about him. how do you explain your change of heart on him by the way? yesterday we had a pretty long argument about you taking him off the lynch pool, and now we have one flip and he is suddenly your top scum read? (i'm actually realizing reasons for the initial feelings i had as i write them.)
Because now I know Walrus is town, and every single dead player is town. It makes me suspect lurkers, because the top posters (except me and yuma) are all dead. Also because if I assume Teproc is town, the only non-mail-mi team is you and yuma, which is...quite plausible, actually. Would you prefer I voted for you? :)
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Better shorter explanation - I had no reason to think mail-mi was town earlier. I also had no reason to think he was scum. Now I have reasons to think he is scum and no reasons to think he is town (atm).
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Surprised to see Voltaire lead the post count. I guess it's that he has been going against the flow lately, especially day 1. I honestly think that's a great thing and love his approach, a bit surprised we aren't seeing any original ideas from him here yet.
I guess it's worth noting that (as far as I can tell) Eevee was the first person to say this about me. For some dumb reason that seems like town-points to me.
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Post count!
Eevee: 109
yuma: 224
mailmi: 60
voltaire: 252
chairs+teproc: 28+89
Teproc's (and my) posts are like way longer than mailmi's though, and teproc (and mine) activity has rising, not declining throughout the game. Not much to glean from this though, except I do think teproc deserves towncred for being so active (compared to someone we know nothing of who just subs in at the start of day 2).
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As far as a Voltaire/mail-mi scumteam goes, Eevee, it's the most likely scum team I think.
It's closely followed by Voltaire/Eeevee and yuma/Eeevee (that one makes me very worried) though.
I'll post more later, but those three + yuma/mail-mi are the only teams I'm seriously considering right now.
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Eevee, as far as catching scum!yuma goes, the only game I've played where I did that was one where yuma screwed up a quickhammer and outed himself as scum.
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I have 2.5 hours until leaving. I'm worried about my availability from there on, so the more people we have to play blitz with me until then, the better.
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I have 2.5 hours until leaving. I'm worried about my availability from there on, so the more people we have to play blitz with me until then, the better.
Well, there's no need to follow yuma's self-imposed Tuesday deadline. When does your availability pick back up?
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I have 2.5 hours until leaving. I'm worried about my availability from there on, so the more people we have to play blitz with me until then, the better.
Well, there's no need to follow yuma's self-imposed Tuesday deadline. When does your availability pick back up?
that's the problem, i wont be back until after the deadline.
My availability might be just fine though, we are staying 3-4 star hotels so they should have wifi. I've just been told to expect nothing when it comes to travelling in china.
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At this point my reads are:
want to lynch: voltaire, faust
willing to lynch: EFHW, chairs
not so interested in: eevee, mail-mi
Won't lynch: robz, walrus
oh hey lookit thiz
This is where scum puts their partners.
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Again, not that I'm saying this makes me think yuma is scum. It's just hilariously unhelpful.
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I have 2.5 hours until leaving. I'm worried about my availability from there on, so the more people we have to play blitz with me until then, the better.
Well, there's no need to follow yuma's self-imposed Tuesday deadline. When does your availability pick back up?
that's the problem, i wont be back until after the deadline.
My availability might be just fine though, we are staying 3-4 star hotels so they should have wifi. I've just been told to expect nothing when it comes to travelling in china.
from my experience in china the wifi was extremely hit or miss i think in the month i was there i had it about 10 days total
but i was saying in student dorms and somewhat less established hotels
i can try and play blitz with you but am playing one handed while baby watching (wife's first day back at work)
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Better shorter explanation - I had no reason to think mail-mi was town earlier. I also had no reason to think he was scum. Now I have reasons to think he is scum and no reasons to think he is town (atm).
I think eliminating someone from the pool of candidates definitely implies seeing reason to think they are town. You really went from "mailmi is off the table" to "mailmi is the best lynch" with just one flip in between. It's pretty extreme.
That whole exchange is even more troublesome for me now, I felt I wasn't getting anywhere so I dropped it yesterday but.. maybe the problem was that I WAS getting somewhere (and you are running a hail mary now, banking no one thinks you can be partners if you get him lynched today)..
I know these are musings that are hard for you to respond to, but I think better when I type my thoughts out.
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I believe scum would have made an effort to have at least an active member.
I do agree with this, especially given mail-mi's recent lynches based off him lurking in lio's game... can't remember the name of that one
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I believe scum would have made an effort to have at least an active member.
I do agree with this, especially given mail-mi's recent lynches based off him lurking in lio's game... can't remember the name of that one
For me this is pretty null because I think everyone has been at their expected level of activity, expect for Teproc who is a positive surprise.
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All our wagons, both lynch and L-1's:
Robz888(4): Mail-Mi, Voltaire, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma (L-1)
WalrusMcFishSr (4): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust (L-1)
Robz888(4) Voltaire, Faust, Chairs, Walrus (L-1)
Chairs (4): Robz888, EFHW, Walrus, Chairs (mail-mi stated intent to hammer, so ignoring the self-vote, this is also a L-1)
Voltaire(3): Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Walrus (L-1)
Faust(5): Voltaire, Robz, Yuma, Chairs, Mail-mi (lynch)
Voltaire (3): yuma, Walrus, EFHW (L-1)
EFHW (3): yuma, Eevee, Voltaire (L-1)
Voltaire (3): Eevee, yuma, Walrus (L-1)
Walrus (3): mail-mi, Voltaire, Teproc (L-1)
Voltaire (3): Walrus, yuma, Eevee (L-1)
Walrus (4): mail-mi, Teproc, Voltaire, EFHW (lynch)
Off-wagon D1
faust, Eevee, EFHW, Walrus
Off-wagon D2
yuma, Walrus, Eevee
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Better shorter explanation - I had no reason to think mail-mi was town earlier. I also had no reason to think he was scum. Now I have reasons to think he is scum and no reasons to think he is town (atm).
I think eliminating someone from the pool of candidates definitely implies seeing reason to think they are town. You really went from "mailmi is off the table" to "mailmi is the best lynch" with just one flip in between. It's pretty extreme.
That whole exchange is even more troublesome for me now, I felt I wasn't getting anywhere so I dropped it yesterday but.. maybe the problem was that I WAS getting somewhere (and you are running a hail mary now, banking no one thinks you can be partners if you get him lynched today)..
Well, I know you won't necessarily believe this, but if we lynch mail-mi and he flips scum I would agree that I should still be "on the table" from the point of view of everyone else...like I already said, scum easily busses today if they need to.
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i think part of this is that I have had more or less a town read on eevee for much of the game. Not a strong one, but he hasn't ever screamed scum to me the way that voltaire has.
i think voltaire is mail-mi's partner and is bussing him either to hopefully get the win tomorrow or hoping that no one follows him on it and can get a mislynch on eevee or me or teproc (last one unlikely)
but i am more confident that voltaire is scum than i am that mail-mi is... volt could be partners with eevee I think.
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Voltaire, what I'm saying is, I think you are definitely downplaying the 180 you made on mail-mi. It's weird.
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eevee are you going to want to vote before you leave or wait until you get to china?
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Voltaire, what I'm saying is, I think you are definitely downplaying the 180 you made on mail-mi. It's weird.
It's a 180 based on the fact I was not willing to vote for him yesterday and I am today. It is not a 180 in my read on him. I think we are talking about different sides of the same coin, so to speak, here.
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i think part of this is that I have had more or less a town read on eevee for much of the game. Not a strong one, but he hasn't ever screamed scum to me the way that voltaire has.
i think voltaire is mail-mi's partner and is bussing him either to hopefully get the win tomorrow or hoping that no one follows him on it and can get a mislynch on eevee or me or teproc (last one unlikely)
but i am more confident that voltaire is scum than i am that mail-mi is... volt could be partners with eevee I think.
Mylo is so stressful.. at first I was excited that we are seeing eye to eye and got it right.. then I got absolutely terrified you are scum enabling my bad reads to win the game.
uggggghh! yuma, you, me and teproc seem to pretty much agree? what are the chances we just have it right?
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i think part of this is that I have had more or less a town read on eevee for much of the game. Not a strong one, but he hasn't ever screamed scum to me the way that voltaire has.
i think voltaire is mail-mi's partner and is bussing him either to hopefully get the win tomorrow or hoping that no one follows him on it and can get a mislynch on eevee or me or teproc (last one unlikely)
but i am more confident that voltaire is scum than i am that mail-mi is... volt could be partners with eevee I think.
Mylo is so stressful.. at first I was excited that we are seeing eye to eye and got it right.. then I got absolutely terrified you are scum enabling my bad reads to win the game.
uggggghh! yuma, you, me and teproc seem to pretty much agree? what are the chances we just have it right?
I don't know. I like that teproc agrees with me, but I feel like I might being played by you. But I have to go with my gut regardless of your reads.
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uggggghh! yuma, you, me and teproc seem to pretty much agree? what are the chances we just have it right?
0.
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The more Eevee posts the more townie he gets. The more yuma posts the more scummy he gets.
mail-mi either of their partners by POE? Or are they hoping Teproc votes me and signalling that they are getting ready to quickhammer?
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Eevee, can you direct me to (vaguely) where you start talking about mail-mi yesterday? Just a post number, I'm having trouble ctrl+f'ing my way to it.
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eevee are you going to want to vote before you leave or wait until you get to china?
i'm confident i'll get on enough to vote, i'll like call my brother and tell him my password and tell him to read the pages out loud and vote if need be.
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Eevee, can you direct me to (vaguely) where you start talking about mail-mi yesterday? Just a post number, I'm having trouble ctrl+f'ing my way to it.
have some poker tables but give me a couple of minutes.
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Can someone on the Voltaire wagon please unvote for the time being?
We have only a day, and no ones gonna derphammer. BTW, if you hammer without intent you are claiming scum.
Still on phone, but lynch list:
Walrus
Eevee
Voltaire.
I don't think we're going to lynch outside of these 3 and frankly I'm okay with that.
Can we expect some reasons for the list when you get on your computer? Maybe even reasons for why some people aren't included to top it off?
For all the times we asked for your reads, this answer of "these three players are scummier than the other two" is a bit of a lackluster. There are five people we are considering here, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for thoughts on everyone.
When you get home obviously, we still have full 24 hours.
So I found this from Eevee. It's worth noting that mail-mi has listed 2 town players + Eevee. I also don't think that Teproc could be mail-mi's partner for an extra reason beyond the fact that Teproc is town - mail-mi wanted to hammer chairs D1.
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1. WalrusMcFishSr - my thoughts are known - a scum read
2. Chairs/Teproc - chairs's outing looked like town frustration (the way it went down), teproc has been playing impressively and quite towny. i disagree with giving yuma town points for soft deadline suggestions, as he does that in every game, but teproc is still a solid town read.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie - rest in peace robz, we will avenge you!
4. Voltaire - hasnt had revolutionary great ideas, has actually blended in surprisingly edgelessly. slight scum read for that (and for all i know thats the best way to catch scumvoltaire.. i'm not sure though.)
5. Yuma - is so hard to read. putting in a lot of effort reads towny on intuational level.
6. EFHW - an enigma? she always seems to avoid my attention for some reason. scummy due to PoE / not doing anything towny-appearing.
7. Mail-Mi - voting history yesteday is the single scummiest thing yet to happen this game. would be very willing to lynch. does anyone recall how town/scum mail-mi has voted in the past? i dont mean not explaining his votes here, i mean plobbing them down to anyone who has a remote chance of getting lynched.
8. Eevee - that's me, town!
9. Faust Lynched Day1, Vanilla Townie - poor faust.
Vote: mail-mi
OMGUS.
Well, I was voicing suspicion of you way before you decided to vote for me without giving reasons, so that's very true.
Including this because I like how witty I was!
I really don't understand - you seem to be doing extensive rereads on everyone else and really considering all the angles.. and when it comes to mail-mi you just say "seems like his town self". What's the difference between his town and scum play? If I had to summarize mail-mi's play to this point without reading back, I'd say "has posted the least, has been willing to participate in any lynch imaginable". I wouldn't be surprised if mail-mi was willing to hammer TA or nkirbit if we ran them up to three votes!
Mail-mi, what are your reads in this game? I honestly have no clue.
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Voltaire, you are dodging my question.
The case on me, as you put it, is PoE and lurking. Why doesn't that apply to mail-mi?
It does! But you and mail-mi do not have the same metas. Surely you can see this.
All I can see is you dodging the question for.. what, the fifth time? I can't for the life of me understand why you are withholding this information. Let me offer a hypothesis: it's because you are scum and inventing reads, and actually have no reasons. Am I correct?
No, not at all! In fact, I can't even understand how I didn't answer your question. I have explained my read on mail-mi many times. Can you try re-phrasing it, on the chance we're both town and talking past each other?
When I say "fact" in this post, I mean "fact as I see it". If any of my premises are wrong, do correct me.
Fact 1: First you cross off mail-mi and teproc off of today's lynch pool, because they are too towny.
Fact 2: With the remaining players, you went and are still going to great lengths with rereads, covering multiple angles, thinking of possible scumteams, all the work to determine who to lynch today.
Now, I agree with excluding teproc. I have a strong town read on him as well - partially due to chairs stuff, and partially due to his own play. It all adds up to a town narrative - to me he is clearly the least likely to flip scum from my pool of five unknowns.
The question is: Why are you excluding mail-mi? Yep, you've said "meta reasons", multiple times now. What are those meta reasons? -that's the question I feel you are dodging.
I hate, hate hate hate calling scum teams, but here goes with Voltaire - mail-mi. It's beyond me really, Voltaire is by no means an IC, he decides mailmi is off the table, dodges my inquiries for his reasons for that - AND NO ONE SEEMS TO THINK MAIL-MI IS A VIABLE LYNCH NOW??? Whaaaaat?
I know this is not coming out coherent (my brain is quite fried from the session still, but I was pretty eager to get back to this), but to anyone suspecting mail-mi but not voting for him because he isn't viable.. why isn't he viable?
*If you (Voltaire) already answered the question and I just missed a post, I'd like to prematurely announce I feel like a jerk.
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Mmmmm...is that it? Those would seem like very safe votes/interactions between possible partners.
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Eevee, it looks like you used this to try to get me lynched, not mail-mi. Do you see the difference I was talking about earlier? It looks like you want mail-mi to be considered but not lynched.
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I definitely agree with Teproc that mafia deserves was scrutiny for that INCREDIBLE scummy voting history. Like, yes, he has a meta of being erratic as town as well, but we can't just absolve him of all the responsibility for his votes because of that. Mailmi, was there any lynch yesterday you werent comfortable? If you are town, dont you realize how easy that makes it for scum - they have your vote on all their mislynch wagons, almost by default.
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On the other hand...mail-mi's replies to you...hmm.
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I want to look again at EFHW's yuma/Eevee theory.
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Eevee, it looks like you used this to try to get me lynched, not mail-mi. Do you see the difference I was talking about earlier? It looks like you want mail-mi to be considered but not lynched.
Well, you know, I thought your position on him was extremely off, so I called you out on it. There are more words about you because you actually answered to my posts. Mail-mi was never really viable, no one but me and teproc were even considering him. Maybe I abandoned it too easily, but you were the only one responding to my points about him and you had taken him off the table and were not budging on that, so..
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1. WalrusMcFishSr--Doesn't feel like his normal self, also lurking and pleasing the crowd.
2. Chairs/Teproc--Super duper townie. Don't lynch.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie
4. Voltaire--Nullish, hasn't done some of the (oh how to word this) super Townie-ish things I expect from Voltaire, but isn't too scummy either.
5. Yuma--Keep mixing him up with Toy Story yuma. Anyway, under a lot of pressure today. Reacted a bit aggressively, slight scummy (I hope I'm not getting mixed up with Toy Story yuma still.)
6. EFHW--JK
7. Mail-Mi--obvtown
8. Eevee--Lurking, except now that he's called out GUESS WHAT? he's back. Scummish read.
Scum to chum:
Walrus
Eevee
Voltaire
yuma
Teproc
EFHW
mail-mi
PPE:7 had to go to dinner in the middle of writing
Here's another "guess where they'd put their partner" thing - if it's mail-mi/yuma mail-mi has yuma in the "right" spot (not obviously scum but not obviously town) as at this point EFHW was IC and everyone was assuming Teproc town.
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I am ready to vote for Voltaire. My mind is made up.
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Eevee, it looks like you used this to try to get me lynched, not mail-mi. Do you see the difference I was talking about earlier? It looks like you want mail-mi to be considered but not lynched.
Well, you know, I thought your position on him was extremely off, so I called you out on it. There are more words about you because you actually answered to my posts. Mail-mi was never really viable, no one but me and teproc were even considering him. Maybe I abandoned it too easily, but you were the only one responding to my points about him and you had taken him off the table and were not budging on that, so..
Fair point.
I think I want to stop considering Eevee/mail-mi.
That leaves me with only two options. Eevee/yuma or yuma/mail-mi.
I think I'm ready to vote. But I won't until Teproc can give more extended thoughts, and mail-mi too.
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I am ready to vote for Voltaire. My mind is made up.
Ha! Hello scum. :)
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I am ready to vote for Voltaire. My mind is made up.
Ha! Hello scum. :)
vote: voltaire
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going to go hang with my baby girl. Peace all. Have fun in china eevee
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I am ready to vote for Voltaire. My mind is made up.
Ha! Hello scum. :)
vote: voltaire
vote: yuma
Town yuma doesn't take this chance at a scum quickhammer.
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and for all this talk about mail-mi, the votes land on non-mailmi people..
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i dont think i should vote yet.
teproc, hold off until mailmi gets on as well
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I actually suddenly feel pretty good about our chances. Available for questions all day. I'm going to keep questioning my assumptions that led me to this point just to make sure I haven't derp!voted, but I feel really good right now.
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and for all this talk about mail-mi, the votes land on non-mailmi people..
I now think the likeliest team is yuma/mail-mi, but do you see, from my point of view, why voting yuma makes more sense?
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1. WalrusMcFishSr--Doesn't feel like his normal self, also lurking and pleasing the crowd.
2. Chairs/Teproc--Super duper townie. Don't lynch.
3. Robz888 Killed Night1, Vanilla Townie
4. Voltaire--Nullish, hasn't done some of the (oh how to word this) super Townie-ish things I expect from Voltaire, but isn't too scummy either.
5. Yuma--Keep mixing him up with Toy Story yuma. Anyway, under a lot of pressure today. Reacted a bit aggressively, slight scummy (I hope I'm not getting mixed up with Toy Story yuma still.)
6. EFHW--JK
7. Mail-Mi--obvtown
8. Eevee--Lurking, except now that he's called out GUESS WHAT? he's back. Scummish read.
And look at this, too - slight scummy. That's where scum puts their partners (or usually has historically). Note that yes, he also put Eevee in that territory, but there's more extended interactions between them. I'm going to re-read to confirm it, but I don't think there's very much between yuma/mail-mi at all. That's usually a red flag.
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BLAH!!!!
This is exactly the thing scum types after an IC lynch. Although, considering both the PRs are gone, this could be a reaction from a townie. Ugh, mylo! My top scum read is now Eevee, followed by yuma. Really certain it's eevee, and the partner could be either yuma or voltaire but its gotta be eevee.
This is what I was talking about with weird stuff today from mail-mi. He says his quote of yuma means yuma is scum, then immediately hedges, does a generic "ugh" and then says it's Eevee! In the same post he said it was yuma. :o
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Now going to re-read portions of the thread thinking mail-mi/yuma. Then will do the same thinking yuma/Eevee (after re-reading EFHW's reasons for believing such).
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mail-mi's entire interaction with yuma: an RVS vote, and this previously-mentioned post.
BLAH!!!!
This is exactly the thing scum types after an IC lynch. Although, considering both the PRs are gone, this could be a reaction from a townie. Ugh, mylo! My top scum read is now Eevee, followed by yuma. Really certain it's eevee, and the partner could be either yuma or voltaire but its gotta be eevee.
Seriously. That's all I can find.
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mail-mi did say that in the yuma/Voltaire fight I came off as the scummy one.
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I was packing, back now. I'll have phone access for 3 hours more even though I'm leaving sooner, it would be great if I got to read what yuma thinks about the quotes voltaire is pulling up before that (and if teproc and or mailmi got on). Do prioritize the baby though, yuma. :)
What Voltaire is doing is the kind of work that we need here. (Not giving alignment points for putting in the work as scum wants to win just as bad, just general points.)
I'm reading and considering the points, yuma-mailmi definitely looks very plausible although I'd expect scumyuma to instruct his partner to for more interactions with him.
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I kind of REALLY want to know what mailmi has got to say for this. We cant let him lurk out of committing to a position here.
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Here's where I am. I'm looking at four people, all of which could be scum. I don't have the luxury of a town read at this point.
As I've said previously, I don't believe Voltaire/yuma and mail-mi/Eevee are very realistic possibilities. This means that my possible teams are Voltaire/mail-mi or Eeevee and yuma/mail-mi or Eevee. You could spin this otherwise, but yuma and Voltaire are my two possible lynches today because I would rather lynch the most active member of a scum team first. This is because we get more information out of the flip. Once one of them flips scum, it's easier to go back and look through their interactions with the remaining players, and proceed accordingly. If we lynch someone like mail-mi, there's much less to analyse.
Now the question is : Voltaire or yuma. I was thinking Voltaire going into day 3 for several reasons :
1) His behaviour on day 1, tunneling on Robz while accusing everyone else of scumminess
2) The end of day 2. I appear to be the only one believing this is scummy though, which is very interesting.
3) The fact that Walrus flipped town. At the time, I thought it was very likely that one of the wo was scum, and Walrus flipped town.
That being said, all these interactions between yuma and Eevee really scare me. I'm rereading yuma right now to look at interactions, and I'm not sure what to think.
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That last sentence wasn't clear : I mean all the interactions between yuma and Eevee day 3 scare me, so I need to look back before that.
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So I am keeping mail-mi in the back of my mind, but right now, until I see something more convincing I don't think I will be going for a mail-mi lynch because ultimately it becomes a tossup...
This is the end of yuma's reply to Teproc's big mail-mi case. Totally reasonable for scum!yuma or town!yuma to say.
I know this is not coming out coherent (my brain is quite fried from the session still, but I was pretty eager to get back to this), but to anyone suspecting mail-mi but not voting for him because he isn't viable.. why isn't he viable?
For me it is a worry. He could be scum. Flashbacks to Pirates II haunt me. But at the same time, f.ds has countless examples of mail-mi being mislynched. It happens all the time.... Remember us in Mean Girls. We went into the end day knowing that we could push a mislynch on mail-mi...
I kinda suspect him. He has done some stuff that makes me go "huh?" But that isn't a reason to lynch mail-mi. It just isn't. Because odds are that he is going to flip town and I don't think we get much of anything out of that unfortunately... especially when we have better options in Voltaire and I think you. I don't think I would lynch walrus over mail-mi. Or Teproc over mail-mi. So he is square in the middle for me. frustrating, but that is the way it goes when you mislynch someone over and over and over again.
This is his reply to Eevee asking about mail-mi. Again, same thing.
Look if the case on voltaire wasn't very good, or if there wasn't a halfway decent case on you, yeah... I would be looking more at mail-mi. But those other options exist and so I favor them.
Look I am not saying mail-mi shouldn't be lynched. But rather that we have options that I think are better. a lot of that has to do with mail-mi, but it has more to do with me thinking that we have pretty good options in front of us, so why would I go for one that isn't as good...?
Same.
That's it for yuma/mail-mi interaction until today. That fits a yuma/mail-mi team narrative, especially with him calling us both likely scum but me more likely.
Yuma also gives all sorts of strange language about the mislynches..."blast", "despondent", "BLAH" etc. I'm not used to that in town!yuma. scum!yuma would need to justify why he keeps being wrong.
So I think mail-mi/yuma is a very, very, very, very possible scumteam here.
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Now the question is : Voltaire or yuma. I was thinking Voltaire going into day 3 for several reasons :
1) His behaviour on day 1, tunneling on Robz while accusing everyone else of scumminess
2) The end of day 2. I appear to be the only one believing this is scummy though, which is very interesting.
3) The fact that Walrus flipped town. At the time, I thought it was very likely that one of the wo was scum, and Walrus flipped town.
1) I assume you mean me saying that I liked the cases on other people but didn't move my vote?
2) I think in context it's very clear I was just being sarcastic, I encourage you to go re-read that moment if you haven't already.
3) This is where it is very frustrating for me, but I don't blame anyone, for thinking this way. Because I have already adjusted to the truth - town has played perfectly horribly so far. It's tempting to think I'm scum because then town doesn't have to face that fact. I get it. Nobody wants to have played that bad. But we have. I'm town.
I still have to look through Eevee/yuma too. That may not happen until this afternoon as lunch is coming up soon.
Teproc, please give me a chance to answer any questions you may have before voting for me. Whether yuma is scum or not, if you vote only 1 scum has to cast a vote and the game is over, we lose.
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Teproc, please give me a chance to answer any questions you may have before voting for me.
If you vote for me, that is. I'm delighted to hear you're considering other options.
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Oh I'm very far from casting a vote at this point. I mean, we shouldn't drag this out like the two previous days, but I don't want to see anyone lynched today, that's for sure.
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Eevee, I wouldn't describe it as asking for town's "permission", so much as gauging the town's interest. It seems like I'm the only one who's talked about mail-mi (excepting EFHW's finding my finding him scummy scummy), and I was wondering if anyone else shared my sentiments. I didn't want to vote for him (yet) because I wanted to see if this EFHW train goes anywhere. But I still think he's being scummy, and I'd like to know what others think. By now I think he's been lurkier than Robz with less actual genuine content to consider. And I think I express my suspicion through question marks quite often actually haha
Oh chairs, you're comfortable with your vote? Good for you. I think that it's bad form to vote for me, say you've got some secret quote that you can't transcribe right now because you're at work, and then still withhold it even now. I remember that secret case in M31, but I couldn't imagine that this is anything like that, and that ended up being engineered by scum anyway, right? Hey chairs, there's some quote somewhere that you've written that makes me feel that you're scummy, so I'm going to vote for you. Oh no wait, there's not, because you haven't written anything yet worth analyzing. My sympathy for your bad Internet is dissipating.
mail-mi usually lurks and sheeps as town, so those are not scum tells for him. I think all you're seeing is most of the "vets" who have played with him before seeing what they'd expect, and therefore not spending much time on him. I am always theoretically up for a mail-mi vote D1, though (like I am for most all players).
And thank you for reminding me chairs did not post his case. Chairs, we need that.
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As I've said previously, I don't believe Voltaire/yuma and mail-mi/Eevee are very realistic possibilities.
Can you elaborate on why you eliminate mail-mi/Eevee? I do too, I'm curious for your reasons. At the moment I am most definitely POEing yuma (even though I have good reads reasons too, I can go into them if needed) so your reasons should help me double-check.
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Eevee, I wouldn't describe it as asking for town's "permission", so much as gauging the town's interest. It seems like I'm the only one who's talked about mail-mi (excepting EFHW's finding my finding him scummy scummy), and I was wondering if anyone else shared my sentiments. I didn't want to vote for him (yet) because I wanted to see if this EFHW train goes anywhere. But I still think he's being scummy, and I'd like to know what others think. By now I think he's been lurkier than Robz with less actual genuine content to consider. And I think I express my suspicion through question marks quite often actually haha
Oh chairs, you're comfortable with your vote? Good for you. I think that it's bad form to vote for me, say you've got some secret quote that you can't transcribe right now because you're at work, and then still withhold it even now. I remember that secret case in M31, but I couldn't imagine that this is anything like that, and that ended up being engineered by scum anyway, right? Hey chairs, there's some quote somewhere that you've written that makes me feel that you're scummy, so I'm going to vote for you. Oh no wait, there's not, because you haven't written anything yet worth analyzing. My sympathy for your bad Internet is dissipating.
mail-mi usually lurks and sheeps as town, so those are not scum tells for him. I think all you're seeing is most of the "vets" who have played with him before seeing what they'd expect, and therefore not spending much time on him. I am always theoretically up for a mail-mi vote D1, though (like I am for most all players).
And thank you for reminding me chairs did not post his case. Chairs, we need that.
What are you saying?
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This game did get off to a herky-jerky start, though it's fine just now. That's probably the reason. I mean, I guess it's good that I now have a meta of being useful, even if it draws suspicion!
Where I am right now is actually having a lite scumread on yuma, but knowing I don't want to lynch him today. Yuma is always a terrible D1 lynch. I'm trying to explore other areas instead. I did my most recent vote count to try to eliminate people, but it didn't work. Chairs is phone-posting so of course he's at the bottom, mail-mi is mail-mi, and I'm at the top, and EFHW looked troublesome to me at the very start. Though I think it's more her normal meta, ie the always questioning/casting suspicion. It looks bad to be though because that is how shraeye also plays, and I haven't spent much time with town!shraeye (just Clue I think).
Which means my lynch pool is still 8. :-\
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I don't think a scum team would allow both members to be lurking day 1. Eevee has been more active since then, but a lot of his activity day 2 was pursuing a lynch on mail-mi, so ... I'm not as sure about excluding this one than I am with Voltaire/yuma, but I think it's a decent assumption to make.
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OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
I'm going to agree with EFHW (hilariously enough, as she is also one of my scum reads) and say that at the moment I do not have enough information to read mail-mi or chairs and likely won't today, so they're gone.
WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust
and the pool ends up as
WalrusMcFishSr, Robz888, EFHW, Eevee, Faust
Let's take a look at that Robz wagon:
Mail-Mi, Voltaire, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma
and the Walrus wagon:
Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust
and EFHW peaked at 3 unique btw:
mail-mi, yuma, Walrus
Scum likely needs 3 mislynches to win.
I have a secret confession to make. I think I actually really really really like the Walrus case.
Though I also like my vote on Robz still, who is voting for chairs, for what I perceive as very weak reasons.
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Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
The one time I hardcore tunneled you, I was scum.
And you're a town read with a D1 pass, btw, no further.
Bit you're usually up for a D1 mail-mi lynch. Your Townself is. It's not very scummy, it's weird bordering on scummy.
Paradoxically you bringing this up just makes me have a stronger town read on you.
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Yuma, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make quoting those posts of mine, but if you have one, I'll reply after lunch. I stand by my exclusion of mail-mi up until this point and I'm not certain he's scum. I'm getting close to certain you are, partially because scum doesn't seem to be trying to quick-hammer either of us (if we're both town) and because Teproc has now been allowed to claim nearly-IC status (which scum would have assuredly abused to win the game now if he is scum).
I'm heading out now.
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A reads post cuz I'm on a bus and heck why not.
1. WalrusMcFishSr--jumping off Faust then getting back on after being called out is a bit suspicious.
2. Chairs--Has differing opinions about theory--SCUM SCUM! Jk null
3. Robz888--vote: robz has like 1 post.
4. Voltaire--seems normal self. Townish
5. Yuma--Dressed up evil for Halloween. Nothing much here, null
6. EFHW--asking lots of questions. Null
7. Mail-Mi--obvtown
8. Eevee--IDK, has been lurking a lot in recent games when town, seems the sameish here. Slightly townish (which prob. means no cuz it's Eevee)
9. Faust--just getting a slightly scummy feel, not much else.
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Voltaire comes out of that exchange much scummier than Yuma, and Faust probably isn't going through, so vote: Voltaire.
Why. Please give a reason.
Mostly a feeling from skimming it over. I am currently in school.
Also, tou have a town read on me. That's not normal.
classic bussing if you two are scum. realizes that you are going down.... and should have gone down but we were distracted by faust. so joins with little reasoning "gut feel" to get credit if you do go down.
keep in mind that mail-mi bussed TA day1 hard... last game
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Yuma, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make quoting those posts of mine, but if you have one, I'll reply after lunch. I stand by my exclusion of mail-mi up until this point and I'm not certain he's scum. I'm getting close to certain you are, partially because scum doesn't seem to be trying to quick-hammer either of us (if we're both town) and because Teproc has now been allowed to claim nearly-IC status (which scum would have assuredly abused to win the game now if he is scum).
I'm heading out now.
point is that you have nearly as liitle interactions as i do with mail-mi early on.
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and I should add that voltaire is basically saying that I am partners with mail-mi and that I had no interaction with him. Right?
So eevee, Volt, Teproc (to a lesser extent) let me ask you this... Is this how scum yuma plays? I hate these arguments, but you have to consider it. Does yuma allow himself and his partner to have zero interactions with each other?
No. The answer is no. I don't expect you to find that convincing. Goodness I don't really see the need to convince you guys of anything. I think my case on voltaire has merit and standing on its own and I stand by it. I have tried to stand by it all game long... but people keep getting lynched instead of him.
So that is all I really have to say. Lynch voltaire. It should have happened day1. It REALLY should have happened day2 but AtE just proved to be too strong. So yeah...
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what I really think is happening right now is that voltaire came out of the gates thinking that he would have to buss mail-mi to have a chance of winning (hence having me the third choice out of three)...
but as the day progressed and he saw how other people were reacting to me he slowly and methodically moved his read toward me being a more and more viable mislynch. He is now going for the win today rather than trying to play the slow game into tomorrow.
He has done this every single day1, 2 and 3. Start out with a town read on me. Test the waters and then back off. He did it day1 after I voted for him. He did it day2 after I voted for him. and he is doing it today... after I voted for him.
he is scum and should be lynched. End of story.
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Vote Count 3.2:
Voltaire (1): Yuma
Yuma (1): Voltaire
Not Voting (5): Teproc, Mail-mi, Eevee
With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Day 3 ends November 22 at 8:00 p.m.
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On a similar note... once I had decided that I was voting for voltaire, voltaire stopped trying to convince me of him being town and of trying to get me to vote for mail-mi... maybe he thought that I couldn't be convinced (I don't know... I probably can't, but I think town keeps trying)... but instead he switched gears and started to vote for me. It was as though he realized he lost my support and as a result felt that he had to start attacking the one player that was guaranteed to no longer support him.
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On a similar note... once I had decided that I was voting for voltaire, voltaire stopped trying to convince me of him being town and of trying to get me to vote for mail-mi... maybe he thought that I couldn't be convinced (I don't know... I probably can't, but I think town keeps trying)... but instead he switched gears and started to vote for me. It was as though he realized he lost my support and as a result felt that he had to start attacking the one player that was guaranteed to no longer support him.
No, the reason all of this happened is because since I think Teproc is town, I am left with three options:
yuma/mail-mi
yuma/Eevee
mail-mi/Eevee
I decided the third is incredibly unlikely. BAM, you just got POEd as scum. Case closed.
Also (though it is not much overall), I have way more interactions with mail-mi than you do. I challenge anyone to re-read the thread and conclude otherwise.
Also! mail-mi may not even be scum! Maybe the team is Eevee/yuma. I still have to do that re-read, and I haven't yet.
And I will make a case-based post on why yuma is scum, since I know that my POE only applies to myself since no-one else can know I am town.
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I have tried to stand by it all game long... but people keep getting lynched instead of him.
...says the guy who started the faust quick-lynch (which I joined, yes) and drove the EFHW near-lynch.
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No, the reason all of this happened is because since I think Teproc is town, I am left with three options:
yuma/mail-mi
yuma/Eevee
mail-mi/Eevee
I decided the third is incredibly unlikely. BAM, you just got POEd as scum. Case closed.
Did I miss the post where you eliminated eevee-mail-mi?
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You started the faust quick-lynch, Voltaire. Robz joined in, then yuma as well.
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No, the reason all of this happened is because since I think Teproc is town, I am left with three options:
yuma/mail-mi
yuma/Eevee
mail-mi/Eevee
I decided the third is incredibly unlikely. BAM, you just got POEd as scum. Case closed.
Did I miss the post where you eliminated eevee-mail-mi?
Yes.
Eevee, it looks like you used this to try to get me lynched, not mail-mi. Do you see the difference I was talking about earlier? It looks like you want mail-mi to be considered but not lynched.
Well, you know, I thought your position on him was extremely off, so I called you out on it. There are more words about you because you actually answered to my posts. Mail-mi was never really viable, no one but me and teproc were even considering him. Maybe I abandoned it too easily, but you were the only one responding to my points about him and you had taken him off the table and were not budging on that, so..
Fair point.
I think I want to stop considering Eevee/mail-mi.
That leaves me with only two options. Eevee/yuma or yuma/mail-mi.
I think I'm ready to vote. But I won't until Teproc can give more extended thoughts, and mail-mi too.
The reasons are in the posts proceeding it.
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I have tried to stand by it all game long... but people keep getting lynched instead of him.
...says the guy who started the faust quick-lynch (which I joined, yes) and drove the EFHW near-lynch.
actually you started it. I pointed out something and then you voted first. I believe I was the third vote (meaning I think you jumped on something that I pointed out and thought that it might be an escape route for you)
Hey... you were right there with me on the EFHW wagon. Sheeping I might say.
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Yuma was the first to comment on faust's post but he was clearly not sure if he wanted to lych faust right away before he got 2 votes on him. Relevant quote below.
And to be clear I am not finding him suspicious for not being around the rest of the day. Our deadlines are hard for european players, but I DO NOT like how he just ignored the case on voltaire and then plopped a really safe vote down right before deadline... And i am frustrated that I can't really go back to voting for him because he won't be around to claim if he does get up that high... is the risk worth going back to him? I don't know. If I wasn't somewhat certain about voltaire I might go back, but as it is, I think I have them about equal in terms of scumminess...
I agree, I would lynch him for this.
The question is thus: Do we lynch him today (or try to do so) or do we let him live until Day2 (I am assuming mafia won't be NKing him) and then consider lynching him then for this egregious behavior?
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No, the reason all of this happened is because since I think Teproc is town, I am left with three options:
yuma/mail-mi
yuma/Eevee
mail-mi/Eevee
I decided the third is incredibly unlikely. BAM, you just got POEd as scum. Case closed.
Did I miss the post where you eliminated eevee-mail-mi?
Yes.
Eevee, it looks like you used this to try to get me lynched, not mail-mi. Do you see the difference I was talking about earlier? It looks like you want mail-mi to be considered but not lynched.
Well, you know, I thought your position on him was extremely off, so I called you out on it. There are more words about you because you actually answered to my posts. Mail-mi was never really viable, no one but me and teproc were even considering him. Maybe I abandoned it too easily, but you were the only one responding to my points about him and you had taken him off the table and were not budging on that, so..
Fair point.
I think I want to stop considering Eevee/mail-mi.
That leaves me with only two options. Eevee/yuma or yuma/mail-mi.
I think I'm ready to vote. But I won't until Teproc can give more extended thoughts, and mail-mi too.
The reasons are in the posts proceeding it.
which was immediately after I had decided that I was going to vote for you.
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I have tried to stand by it all game long... but people keep getting lynched instead of him.
...says the guy who started the faust quick-lynch (which I joined, yes) and drove the EFHW near-lynch.
actually you started it. I pointed out something and then you voted first. I believe I was the third vote (meaning I think you jumped on something that I pointed out and thought that it might be an escape route for you)
Hey... you were right there with me on the EFHW wagon. Sheeping I might say.
Or...you tested the waters for a faust mislynch, saw two townies jump on it, and went for it.
I thought you had a good case. What was bugging me was the "EFHW brought it up" no town-reads thing. We were both wrong...unless one of us was shooting for a mislynch.
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which was immediately after I had decided that I was going to vote for you.
Yeah, I was typing that post and then you voted for me.
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Yuma was the first to comment on faust's post but he was clearly not sure if he wanted to lych faust right away before he got 2 votes on him. Relevant quote below.
Testing. The. Waters.
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which was immediately after I had decided that I was going to vote for you.
Yeah, I was typing that post and then you voted for me.
if you say so, sure I'll believe you.
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Yuma was the first to comment on faust's post but he was clearly not sure if he wanted to lych faust right away before he got 2 votes on him. Relevant quote below.
Testing. The. Waters.
if this is testing the waters what would you call what you have done to me all game long?
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Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?
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Yuma was the first to comment on faust's post but he was clearly not sure if he wanted to lych faust right away before he got 2 votes on him. Relevant quote below.
Testing. The. Waters.
if this is testing the waters what would you call what you have done to me all game long?
Either
1. scum!yuma is really ****ing good at poisoning the well so a townie voting for him will look suspicious? I've pointed this out before, and so did EFHW.
or
2. being right :)
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no... i am not participating in a conversation here. volt is scum. anyone that wants to know can go back and look. i am done talking to volt. anyone else have questions? nothing volt says from this point out am i considering valid...
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Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?
nice job dodging the question at hand...
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Also, yuma, it's not like I've been magically correct about you all game long. I started with a gut scum read, dismissed it as gut based, thought I started seeing evidence, decided other cases were better (including some you made), and now, D3, I've POEd you and that lets me see your behavior all game in a different light.
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no... i am not participating in a conversation here. volt is scum. anyone that wants to know can go back and look. i am done talking to volt. anyone else have questions? nothing volt says from this point out am i considering valid...
scum!yuma again. He refused to debate because he has nothing to stand on and doesn't want to let himself get tripped up.
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Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?
nice job dodging the question at hand...
Yeah, just tell us if you're yuma's partner please. It'll make everything so much simpler.
I promise I am trying to read up on Eevee/yuma during this but it's really difficult with all the posts coming in.
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Still reading for Eevee/yuma but I found this by EFHW and it's her expressing better the point I also made that yuma is pre-emptively defending himself by painting his attackers as scummy.
Teproc you are missing my points. yuma asked for evidence of his being aggressive when suspected. That's why I provided it. I don't think it makes him scummy, and I said so. I think he uses that to keep from being accused and I am pointing it out to town b/c if he is scum that is a powerful defense if not recognized. I voted for yuma, but most of those posts were my defense against his attack, not my case against him.
Note the correct cautious clauses EFHW put in there, because yuma is playing well and has not been obvious.
I pointed this out when he did something similar to me:
Something to note: yuma has planted the seeds of discrediting me every time he talks about me. He predicts what the case against him is, then says bringing it up is scummy. So if I ever advance my case against yuma, I'll look scummy. He just did it right now (the 0/3 thing), and he did it at the start of the day too:
Voltaire as well... I fully expect him to come in here and vote for me raging that I am still alive and had a town read on Robz for town credit... But I'll leave it to him to make the pseudocase on me.
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It was a quotefail post by here so you may have missed it, but EFHW pulled examples of this from other games:
Regarding yuma reacting hostilely to suspicions against him - He is correct it has only happened between us in a couple games. Pirates II must have made a very big impression on me. However, going through the games we have played together I find that he is almost never seriously suspected, but when he is, he does respond more aggressively than his other posts in the same game. Some examples:
Vote:Yuma for having a plan but actually being unclear on whether it's a plan or not. I still don't know!
of course it is a plan. I said it was a plan. So it is a plan! What do you take me for?
Unvote
While this gives Yuma a lot of town credit, I'm still not considering him 100% IC. Maybe like 85%!
really... well I am inclined to vote: nkirbit just for that. You really think that putting everyone up to L-1 is the way to do this? Alright. Let's start with you.
The fact that yuma is against the plan and claims his role isn't on the wiki makes me more interested in following it. Because if my theory is right, chairs is a Mentor and yuma is his Mentee, and yuma has to do everything in his power to not let chairs die.
then lynch me, see that I am town and be done with it. Seriously. If you think that I would rather go to the grave than have chairs die. (already anticipating you saying "further evidence!!! yuma would rather die as a mentee than watch his mentor die!!!) But seriously, let's hunt mafia... rather than go off on wild goose chases...
vote: voltgloss
This one is really long, so I'll just post the link:
Add to this his aggressive response in this game ....
Chairs, are you going to get in here and defend yourself? I want to lynch you.
I'll just say this. I think Yuma has been unusually careful in his stances. Keep that in mind if you do lynch me.
Back that up. Right now. Back it up.
I don't think it is inaccurate to say that yuma comes on very strong when suspected. As I said before, I don't think this is scummy or bad play. I am pointing it out b/c I think this strategy may make people less likely to vote for him.
As she says, she doesn't think this is scummy (which is...strange). But it's clearly what is happening right here, and I think this post is stronger evidence than she gave herself credit for.
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It's not strong evidence because those quotes come from a game where yuma is town IIRC.
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It's not strong evidence because those quotes come from a game where yuma is town IIRC.
Oh, really? Sad face, I have confirmation bias on my own correct case. Let me double-check.
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It's not strong evidence because those quotes come from a game where yuma is town IIRC.
Oh, really? Sad face, I have confirmation bias on my own correct case. Let me double-check.
You're right, those were from LOTR2, and yuma was town. That explains my "(which is...strange)" comment about EFHW then! Anyway, it's still what he's doing here.
Also, Teproc, note that one of us basically has to be scum. If we're both town, scum almost certainly would have quickhammered. Eevee and mail-mi have both been around, and that's the only possible combination if you're town.
Basically, I would like to use my Gladiator (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Gladiator) power against yuma. :D
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It's not strong evidence because those quotes come from a game where yuma is town IIRC.
HA! also if someone is going to pull efhw quotes maybe they should remember that efhw found voltaire very scummy and would have voted if not for excessive AtE
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I'm not sure a mail-mi/Eevee team would be quickhammering right now. It's pretty hard to do I think, you might revote your vote at any point if you don't like the way the first of them joins.
Besides, I don't need to be convinced of this, I've already stated I'm voting for one of you two today (gameday).
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It's not strong evidence because those quotes come from a game where yuma is town IIRC.
HA! also if someone is going to pull efhw quotes maybe they should remember that efhw found voltaire very scummy and would have voted if not for excessive AtE
Oh, I completely agree that if EFHW were alive she would almost certainly lynch me for a town loss right now.
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Besides, I don't need to be convinced of this, I've already stated I'm voting for one of you two today (gameday).
Cool then. Good. Good. Very good.
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So, Eevee/yuma (finally). I started with Eevee, since there's less to read.
He actually mentions yuma quite a bit, the first significant moment coming when he questions my removing yuma from the lynch pool on D1. He says this near the end of the day
Yuma I'm pretty null on, while I agree with the no-hammering because I don't want Robz lynched, it's always a bit problematic when someone who isn't considered an IC makes ultimatums like that. I'm not capable of catching scum yuma day 1, and as has been discussed, he is more likely to be nightkilled either way, so that and him generally being very active means we'll get more information on his alignment naturally as the game progresses.
and that's basically it for the early stuff. D2/D3 is when he showed up and that's more fresh in our minds. Also I'm starting to get burnout.
So if the team is yuma/Eevee, it's the kind of well-done play you'd expect from a scum team of two vets. Still very possible.
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The Case on Yuma, for Teproc and whichever of mail-mi/Eevee is town
points presented in no particular order, with full knowledge that some are stronger than others
FOREWORD: Please see my posts where I POE yuma as scum, and the assumptions contained therein. I understand that these posts cannot hold water from your points of view. Therefore, please consider:
1. Yuma's aggressiveness at being questioned/voted (null tell as per EFHW but incredibly effective for games where he is scum)
1a. Yuma discrediting my cases on him at every turn
Voltaire as well... I fully expect him to come in here and vote for me raging that I am still alive and had a town read on Robz for town credit... But I'll leave it to him to make the pseudocase on me.
if voltaire is town that means I am 0/3 in scum hunting. I think town voltaire would find that unacceptable from me and would be pursuing my lynch today much more aggressively.... but he hasn't... maybe cause he knows I am right on this one?
This post indicates that he is moving toward lynching me. I am sure of it.
2. Yuma fought hard against Teproc being established as a near-IC, something that scum would absolutely have to do to avoid being POEd like he has been by me
3. yuma led mislynches against faust (no really, he did - re-read that and note how yuma makes the case without voting, then jumps aboard after myself and Robz) and against EFHW
4. shamelessly sheeping the dead town - EFHW found yuma scummy (and me too, so I might as well not list this, but hey) and Robz was "wary" of yuma D1
5. using actual appeal-to-emotion by arguing that there's no way town has played so badly as to never have come close to lynching scum, therefore I must be scum because I'm the only remaining option. Really, this is just the most horrible case in the history of forever.
For voltaire to be town that means that every single wagon brought up on day1 was on town. Every single one. That would require epic fail proportions for town....
[snip]
I can't believe town would be so bad or that mafia would allow themselves to go completely unscathed through day1... I just can't.
6. artificially declaring that he will vote by Tuesday when there is no need to rush in lylo
7. the entire exchange between us starting with when we vote for each other. Please re-read our back-and-forth and look at him doing what he accuses me of doing. For example:
Yuma was the first to comment on faust's post but he was clearly not sure if he wanted to lych faust right away before he got 2 votes on him. Relevant quote below.
Testing. The. Waters.
if this is testing the waters what would you call what you have done to me all game long?
Note how he actually dodged the question of his post on faust without a vote, then accuses me of doing the same thing, which I explain completely. There is no follow-up. Then, most importantly, he declares he quits the conversation. Who is afraid of posting a lot, town or scum? How is it helping town to stop posting?
THE END
With that, I have done what I can do. Two of you out there are town - I implore you to vote for yuma. I understand that not lynching me requires admitting town has been horrible up until this point. That's not actually a case on me - and we have time to turn this thing around.
I will be available for questions as needed. Most importantly, re-read. Towns that re-read are towns that win.
Good luck.
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I had started a post on yuma => Eevee but the Internet hate it. Not going to restart with #s but basically :
Day 1 :
- He votes for EFHW right after she votes Eevee
- At one point he analyses a Walrus wagon which is (chairs, Eevee, mail-mi), but ends up voting for EFHW, stating that the reason he doesn't want to vote for Eevee might be because EFHW is already doing that.
- Finds EFHW scummy for voting only twice. She points out that Eevee has only voted once, to which yuma answers 'good observation"
- lists him in "not so interested in" in a reads post
- calls him out on his absence, while also providing possible reasons for it
- he is also involved in the discussion Eevee launched about AtE
Day 2 :
- criticizes Eevee for his absence, but lightly.
- Votes for EFHW right after she votes for Eevee in a reaction to a reads post from Eevee. He also criticizes mail-mi for sheeping EFHW on that one.
- EFHW calls him out on that (voting for her after she votes Eevee, twice). He says Eevee is scummy, but that he doesn't like the reasons she has for voting for him, so she's scummier.
- reads on Eevee fluctuate. "pretty scummy" (#641), "square in the middle" (#687)
And this is where I was. Let's continue then.
#756: Wonders if Eevee is the right lynch when it looks like he's at L-1 (he actuallywas at L-2)
#759: Eevee reread ! Very mixed read. Says he could support the lynch come deadline. The weird thing here is that he points out townie things Eevee has done, and then ends up mixed. He doesn't call any of his actions scummy, but then says he has "some scummy things to his credit".
#938: says he could vote Eevee over Voltaire, but probably prefers Voltaire
#1057: Votes for Eevee as EFHW is about to hammer
Day 3
#1111 : mail-mi/Eevee second most likely scumteam. Wants to look at Voltaire/Eevee more closely.
#1141: says he had a town read on Eevee most of the game: "Not a strong one, but he hasn't ever screamed scum to me the way that voltaire has."
#1149: Fears Eevee might be playing him.
This is pretty much it. There's a lot here, more than I expected. Not the best use of my time, in that it doesn't change my opinion significantly. It's a strong enough possibility to give me pause, but I'm not convinced either.
Off to do the same thing with Voltaire/mail-mi, which I think is the more likely of the Voltaire pairings.
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just read everything..
I'm so so so sure one and exactly one of yuma and voltaire is scum. (not sure if I should say which way I'm leaning)
however, mailmi is the most likely partner for either. I'd be pretty confident with my choice of yuma and Voltaire but quite sure they aren't the team and mailmi is just MILES scummier than teproc, isn't he the best lynxh (and delaying the decision between yuma and Voltaire until tomorrow)?
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I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler
Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap
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just read everything..
I'm so so so sure one and exactly one of yuma and voltaire is scum. (not sure if I should say which way I'm leaning)
however, mailmi is the most likely partner for either. I'd be pretty confident with my choice of yuma and Voltaire but quite sure they aren't the team and mailmi is just MILES scummier than teproc, isn't he the best lynxh (and delaying the decision between yuma and Voltaire until tomorrow)?
From your point of view, yes. My yuma is your mail-mi.
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The Internet *ate it.
Voltaire's case on yuma :
1) Meh. Sure, it could be a powerful tactic as scum, but it's clearly just something yuma does.
1a) Very different, and a lot more relevant. I don't like this at all.
2) You're making a way too big deal out of this. I didn't intervene in that debate because I felt it wasn't my place, but yuma was right that I shouldn't be considered an IC at all at that point.
3) Yep.
4) Not sure why this is scummy.
5) This is not really his case. It's more that scum would want to be under suspicion on day 1 I think. I don't see what it has to do with AtE.
6) Meh. We just had two mislynches very close to deadline, so I'm fine with that.
7) I don't know about that exchange. You're at each other's throat, he's pretty convinced you're scum, I could see him doing that as town as well as scum.
Funny, but your case on yuma actually makes me reconsider why he's in my lynch pool at all.
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Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?
nice job dodging the question at hand...
And that is...? Am I scum? No. Which of you/Voltaire is scum? You were together until your I quit the convo post. Now it's you, but not confirmed for sure.
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1a. Yay!
2. POE is how expert scum like yuma is caught. Now it's caught him. The point of POE is that scum can play perfectly towny and still get caught re-handed. It's the most effective form of scumhunting. I don't think you're giving this nearly the weight it deserves.
3. Yay!
4. Sorry, I realized after I posted I made it seem as though I was saying yuma sheeped them. He did not. I am sheeping them. It is one of my weakest points, but I am saying that EFHW thought yuma was scummy (and me too for full disclosure). Also Robz was wary of yuma. This is my weakest point. I am throwing everything I've got at the wall, hoping for something to stick, because today might be the game.
5. He is right that scum like to be under suspicion D1 in the current meta. Yuma is appealing to your emotions by saying "Teproc, town can't possibly have been this bad. Give in to the dark side and vote for Voltaire! He has to be scum, we haven't played that badly." I mean yes he makes other cases on me, I'm replying to this one specifically. I stand by this being scum AtE to a very-well-done-T.
6. OK!
7. oh well then
And your coda: wait what seriously? Look at 1a, 2, and 3 again.
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On 5). Well, that's what I thought his post meant at first, and I disagreed with it (by pointing out that it is indeed very possible for town to be that bad). I guess it could be AtE but it would have 0 chances of working on me (and I assume anyone who is paying attention). Basically you see this as possibly brilliant scum play, I see this as way too bad scum play for yuma.
On 2). That makes sense. It also makes sense as town, but ok.
Coda : That was a bit hyperbolic, but I just don't like your case much.
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So...based on everyone's willingness/statements about voting...unless I am missing something...it seems to be Eevee/yuma. This is based on an assumption that Eevee is picking me as the scum amongst myself/yuma, which would be consistent with his previous statements.
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On 5). Well, that's what I thought his post meant at first, and I disagreed with it (by pointing out that it is indeed very possible for town to be that bad). I guess it could be AtE but it would have 0 chances of working on me (and I assume anyone who is paying attention). Basically you see this as possibly brilliant scum play, I see this as way too bad scum play for yuma.
On 2). That makes sense. It also makes sense as town, but ok.
Coda : That was a bit hyperbolic, but I just don't like your case much.
5. OK. I was worried this was working because you had stated you thought between Walrus and myself, one of us had to be scum - and that's not actually a case on me.
Coda. Yuma has played extremely well this game. I understand he is only obv!scum to me. That's my best bet at trying to convince everyone else. I've truly given it my all, and now I just have to wait and see where the chips/votes land.
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I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler
Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap
To you, yuma, I ask: what do you rate the odds the scum team is mail-mi/Eevee, and they're just waiting for Teproc to pick one of us and win?
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I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler
Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap
To you, yuma, I ask: what do you rate the odds the scum team is mail-mi/Eevee, and they're just waiting for Teproc to pick one of us and win?
Did somebody say something to me...?
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I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler
Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap
To you, yuma, I ask: what do you rate the odds the scum team is mail-mi/Eevee, and they're just waiting for Teproc to pick one of us and win?
Did somebody say something to me...?
Cool. I am very confident putting all my eggs in this basked then, because I'm willing to consider all scenarios and you are not. If you're town and we lose, this one's on you.
Scum team is Eevee/yuma. Makes complete sense. Yuma freaked about me saying two of Walrus/yuma/Eevee were scum yesterday. Yuma floated a mail-mi vote today. Eevee tries to get a mail-mi vote. Yup yup yup. Someone hammer myself or yuma, we've sorted this one out. Now it's just time to decide which side wins.
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Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?
nice job dodging the question at hand...
And that is...? Am I scum? No. Which of you/Voltaire is scum? You were together until your I quit the convo post. Now it's you, but not confirmed for sure.
No... just pointing out that you are unwilling to either vote for me (to push through a mislynch) or vote for your partner voltaire. It is awfully convenient.
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Scum team is Eevee/yuma. Makes complete sense. Yuma freaked about me saying two of Walrus/yuma/Eevee were scum yesterday. Yuma floated a mail-mi vote today. Eevee tries to get a mail-mi vote. Yup yup yup. Someone hammer myself or yuma, we've sorted this one out. Now it's just time to decide which side wins.
And Eevee fought me to get mail-mi considered. This is it. Ha.
Everyone vote, this is the game.
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Voltaire => mail-mi
Day 1
#54: RVS on mail-mi
#94: "agreeing with mail-mi *gasp*" I'm guessing this means Voltaire usually goes after mail-mi ?
#158: "mail-mi usually lurks and sheeps as town" in response to Walrus finding mail-mi scummy
#186 : "mail-mi is mail-mi"
#236: Takes him out of his lynch pool, along with chairs, for lack of information.
Day 2
#574: reads. mail-mi is his 2nd town. "mail-mi - behaving like normal scummy mail-mi. If he's scum we'll POE him at some point, or he'll have to start playing and show his true colors."
#730 : Makes me remove my vote on mail-mi ! Not relevant at all I think (he thought I had it on EFHW, who ahd just claimed), but it's funny considering I'm now seeing them as a scum team.
#766 : mail-mi striked out of his lynch list.
#790 : Supports mail-mi giving a reads post. Possibly coaching ?
#802: "Look, the few times I've seen scum mail-mi were HP where he was obvscum because he was hyper-eager to claim the least plausible thing, and then the lipoil tables 11-player Dominion one...he was mcmc's partner...actually how did we catch him there?"
#807: says it makes no sense for him as scum to give town credit to mail-mi. Actually recognizes that it would be possible if they were partners
#829: About mail-mi teams : Eevee and Walrus unlikely, yuma possible.
#871: restates that he thinks mail-mi is town
#890: agrees that mail-mi's voting history is "troublesome"
#895: after rereading my case on mail-mi: "bad but not crazy bad. The faust vote seems completely unexplained but that's it."
Day 3
#1100 : mail-mi and Eevee are his two likeliest candidates.
#1106 : "I almost certainly want to lynch mail-mi"
#1125: "I had no reason to think mail-mi was town earlier. I also had no reason to think he was scum."
I mean there's more day 3 but I don't think it's particularly relevant.
It reads to me like Voltaire decided that the meta defense would be enough to keep mail-mi out of trouble in the first few (which it was), and then went straight to bussing on day 3. This is very abrupt, so much so that I do think it's pretty likely to have been orchestrated in night 2.
Interesting that he starts day 3 with a town read on yuma, but then gradually finds him scummy. What I think about that, and this might be me being self-centered, is that he seemed to have abandoned the mail-mi-Eevee possibility right when I did. At that point, he figured : "Hey, I don't even have to bus ! Just have to convince Teproc that the correct team in yuma/mail-mi and he'll vote for yuma".
He votes for yuma, and this helps me narrowing my decision to Voltaire/yuma. Now he just has to convince me to vote yuma, and mail-mi can hammer.
Not decided yet, but I think you can see which way I'm leaning. I also have a way stronger scum read on Voltaire individually than on yuma. Yes, a yuma/Eevee is very possible, but I have to take a risk in any case.
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#574: reads. mail-mi is his 2nd town. "mail-mi - behaving like normal scummy mail-mi. If he's scum we'll POE him at some point, or he'll have to start playing and show his true colors."
Teproc, I maintain that I have been entirely consistent on mail-mi (who I now think is town, how's that for ya?). This post you quoted is the way I've thought about mail-mi the entire game. Interpret all my actions through the lens of town!Voltaire - see how they make sense too?
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mail-mi, get your butt in here and convince Teproc you're town. That looks like the only way town's going to win.
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I think the team is Yuma/Eevee. Volt/Eevee is also possible I guess, but Yuma is scummier.
But that means every d1 wagon was on town. Hmph.
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mail-mi, get your butt in here and convince Teproc you're town. That looks like the only way town's going to win.
In class (it's been a review class so far) and I promise I will as soon as I can have computer access.
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They don't as much. As town, I think you'd be more careful about excluding mail-mi for what I perceive to be weak reasons. If all he has to do to appear town is act this way, it maked it very easy for him as scum, and I think you know that.
I also think that, as scum, mail-mi has tried behaving differently, and has been lynched because he wasn't "normal mail-mi". It would make sense for him to go back to his normal meta as scum in this game. You apparently not seeing this is scummy to me.
About your "Well, that was fun" post. No one seems to think it's scummy. I obviously do. Since I'm apparently a quasi-IC today, don't you think scum would have tried to play that up, to confirm to me that this was indeed a scummy post ? No one has done that (yuma and mail-mi don't find it scummy, Eevee hasn't commented on it).
PPE: Lol, I guess you guys are well coordinated ! Just kidding, but I don't think anyon can convince me they're town anyway. I'm not convinced yuma is town. I'm just even less convinced that you are.
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It reads to me like Voltaire decided that the meta defense would be enough to keep mail-mi out of trouble in the first few (which it was), and then went straight to bussing on day 3. This is very abrupt, so much so that I do think it's pretty likely to have been orchestrated in night 2.
Interesting that he starts day 3 with a town read on yuma, but then gradually finds him scummy. What I think about that, and this might be me being self-centered, is that he seemed to have abandoned the mail-mi-Eevee possibility right when I did. At that point, he figured : "Hey, I don't even have to bus ! Just have to convince Teproc that the correct team in yuma/mail-mi and he'll vote for yuma".
He votes for yuma, and this helps me narrowing my decision to Voltaire/yuma. Now he just has to convince me to vote yuma, and mail-mi can hammer.
That's because I eliminated mail-mi/Eevee as a possibility and that means yuma has to be scum. Do you see what I am saying?
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I know that. I even comment on what I think happened there right in this quote you pulled.
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1. They don't as much. As town, I think you'd be more careful about excluding mail-mi for what I perceive to be weak reasons. If all he has to do to appear town is act this way, it maked it very easy for him as scum, and I think you know that.
2. I also think that, as scum, mail-mi has tried behaving differently, and has been lynched because he wasn't "normal mail-mi". It would make sense for him to go back to his normal meta as scum in this game. You apparently not seeing this is scummy to me.
3. About your "Well, that was fun" post. No one seems to think it's scummy. I obviously do. Since I'm apparently a quasi-IC today, don't you think scum would have tried to play that up, to confirm to me that this was indeed a scummy post ? No one has done that (yuma and mail-mi don't find it scummy, Eevee hasn't commented on it).
4. PPE: Lol, I guess you guys are well coordinated ! Just kidding, but I don't think anyon can convince me they're town anyway. I'm not convinced yuma is town. I'm just even less convinced that you are.
I've numbered your paragraphs.
1. Yes, it does make it easy for him as scum. You find him on late days. Or on D1, when he wants to claim Doctor at L-1. Have you read him in Harry Potter mafia? I highly recommend it, it won't take long.
2. Yes, that's possible, but think about what you're saying - it's a null tell. It'd be true if he's town or scum.
3. Not even scum is willing to mislynch me for that, it's so horrible. They're not doing it to get town credit, because it's the worst thing in the universe and it was extremely clear I was referring sarcastically to the Eevee non-lynch. I can walk you through this step by step if it helps.
4. Good, there is hope. I'm not giving up until you've voted. :)
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I know that. I even comment on what I think happened there right in this quote you pulled.
Is it not clear to you I was doing a half-dozen re-reads of all possibilities and players? Really, if you think I'm scum because of the order I decided to do my re-reads I will be very deflated. I think yuma successfully poisoned you into thinking anyone agreeing with you is scum sucking up to you.
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1. Yes, it does make it easy for him as scum. You find him on late days. Or on D1, when he wants to claim Doctor at L-1. Have you read him in Harry Potter mafia? I highly recommend it, it won't take long.
Made a typo. I meant L-5. Seriously, he wanted to claim massively early in that game.
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3. Not even scum is willing to mislynch me for that, it's so horrible. They're not doing it to get town credit, because it's the worst thing in the universe and it was extremely clear I was referring sarcastically to the Eevee non-lynch. I can walk you through this step by step if it helps.
Also, I explained myself seconds later, before the thread lock. It's not like I had to retrofit/invent a reason the next day.
Well...that was fun.
vote: Walrus
What the hell was that ?
Trying to switch to Eevee is all.
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Except you were trying to switch to yuma, not Eevee. The fact that you can't keep who you're lynching straight points towards scum as well.
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Except you were trying to switch to yuma, not Eevee. The fact that you can't keep who you're lynching straight points towards scum as well.
...what?
What?
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I will go to Eevee or yuma.
vote: yuma
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Oh, I guess you're right! But look here:
I will go to Eevee or yuma.
vote: yuma
and remember the entire day how I was all "two of yuma/Eevee/Walrus" and this is VERY IMPORTANT - how yuma claimed I was using dumb logic and Eevee fought hard to get mail-mi included. At that moment there were lots of Eevee votes, and I was getting nervous there were too many Eevee votes.
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Yeah I understand that. Again, this "scumslip" or whatever seems to be accepted by everyone to be lame, so that's ok. But even if it was the worst argument in the history of mafia, scum would probably have said something like "Well, I see how you could read it that way, but I don't really". yuma (and mail-mi) didn't even do that.
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Except you were trying to switch to yuma, not Eevee. The fact that you can't keep who you're lynching straight points towards scum as well.
I admit Eevee is not the one I voted for. I preferred yuma over Eevee. I asked your opinion about Eevee votes, and at the same time, I said
I will go to Eevee or yuma.
vote: yuma
I don't think there's a fourth vote on yuma. The votes are there for Eevee I guess (not mine though).
I am kinda concerned about all the Eevee votes lying around, Teproc. EFHW what do you think about that? 9 minutes.
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Yeah I understand that. Again, this "scumslip" or whatever seems to be accepted by everyone to be lame, so that's ok. But even if it was the worst argument in the history of mafia, scum would probably have said something like "Well, I see how you could read it that way, but I don't really". yuma (and mail-mi) didn't even do that.
It is a bit scummy--out of context. In context, it's totally null.
Pretty sold on Yuma/Eevee scum team.
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Yeah I understand that. Again, this "scumslip" or whatever seems to be accepted by everyone to be lame, so that's ok. But even if it was the worst argument in the history of mafia, scum would probably have said something like "Well, I see how you could read it that way, but I don't really". yuma (and mail-mi) didn't even do that.
Are you really willing to bet the game on that?
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Yeah I understand that. Again, this "scumslip" or whatever seems to be accepted by everyone to be lame, so that's ok. But even if it was the worst argument in the history of mafia, scum would probably have said something like "Well, I see how you could read it that way, but I don't really". yuma (and mail-mi) didn't even do that.
Are you really willing to bet the game on that?
Sorry, I don't mean to come across as rude. My heart has been racing all day. Win or lose, this has been quite thrilling. I'm still holding out hope you'll make the right choice.
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Pretty sold on Yuma/Eevee scum team.
I see no reason not to vote, unless you still harbor concerns the scum team is someone else. I'm confident enough with my bet, I understand if everyone else is not.
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Pretty sold on Yuma/Eevee scum team.
I see no reason not to vote, unless you still harbor concerns the scum team is someone else. I'm confident enough with my bet, I understand if everyone else is not.
I am still worried that I throw my vote down on Yuma, then Eevee comes in and hammers him and you two rejoice.
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Pretty sold on Yuma/Eevee scum team.
I see no reason not to vote, unless you still harbor concerns the scum team is someone else. I'm confident enough with my bet, I understand if everyone else is not.
I am still worried that I throw my vote down on Yuma, then Eevee comes in and hammers him and you two rejoice.
Fair enough.
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Pretty sold on Yuma/Eevee scum team.
I see no reason not to vote, unless you still harbor concerns the scum team is someone else. I'm confident enough with my bet, I understand if everyone else is not.
I am still worried that I throw my vote down on Yuma, then Eevee comes in and hammers him and you two rejoice.
This is also super-consistent with town!mail-mi.
Teproc, please please please read scum!mail-mi in KingsCourtGoonsMasquerade and in Harry Potter mafia. Both games are short and mail-mi posts very little, so it will not take very long. I think the difference should be very clear.
Yuma has successfully poisoned your mind and made you think that me agreeing with you is scum sucking up to you. Please look back on my case on yuma. Please look back at how yuma and Eevee responded to my "2 of 3 are scum" yesterday. Please look at how they've positioned themselves today, and how yuma has behaved after placing his vote on me.
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I did read mail-mi and those game and he was indeed very different. He was also lynched pretty much for that reason. I then took a look at a agame where he was town (can't remember which), and found that he wasn't as bandwagonny as he was this game. I will reconsider tomorrow in any case, I'm not voting tonight.
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well if you have any questions for me, ask today. I am starting back into work tomorrow and won't be on much at all.
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I am not sure how/when mail-mi separated me and voltaire out and decided I was the scummy one here...
Cause looks like he skimmed the last couple of pages and somehow ended up thinking I was the scummy one
Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?
I would love to hear why he thinks this:
Yeah I understand that. Again, this "scumslip" or whatever seems to be accepted by everyone to be lame, so that's ok. But even if it was the worst argument in the history of mafia, scum would probably have said something like "Well, I see how you could read it that way, but I don't really". yuma (and mail-mi) didn't even do that.
It is a bit scummy--out of context. In context, it's totally null.
Pretty sold on Yuma/Eevee scum team.
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@yuma: You were both about the same until your "I quit the convo" post. That was just incredibly scummy and put you above volt.
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@yuma: You were both about the same until your "I quit the convo" post. That was just incredibly scummy and put you above volt.
Why is is scummy? Why incredibly?
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I am perfectly willing to engage in a dialogue with anyone else. But not with voltaire. That sort of a dialogue won't lead anywhere productive for town.
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@yuma: You were both about the same until your "I quit the convo" post. That was just incredibly scummy and put you above volt.
Why is is scummy? Why incredibly?
Who wants to prove they're town in mylo? Town (well scum too but mostly town) Who runs out of stuff to prove their "towniness" and quits talking? Scum.
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@yuma: You were both about the same until your "I quit the convo" post. That was just incredibly scummy and put you above volt.
Why is is scummy? Why incredibly?
Who wants to prove they're town in mylo? Town (well scum too but mostly town) Who runs out of stuff to prove their "towniness" and quits talking? Scum.
I am not done talking. I am done talking to volt. I have nothing to prove to him. You have questions for me mail-mi, eevee, teproc. then ask.
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but mostly that seems like an easy way to bypass forming actual reads based off the ENTIRE GAME and just settle on the mislynch that the player I think is your partner has picked out for you.
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@yuma: You were both about the same until your "I quit the convo" post. That was just incredibly scummy and put you above volt.
Why is is scummy? Why incredibly?
Who wants to prove they're town in mylo? Town (well scum too but mostly town) Who runs out of stuff to prove their "towniness" and quits talking? Scum.
I am not done talking. I am done talking to volt. I have nothing to prove to him. You have questions for me mail-mi, eevee, teproc. then ask.
No, you clearly don't want me to be a part of the conversation.
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@yuma: You were both about the same until your "I quit the convo" post. That was just incredibly scummy and put you above volt.
Why is is scummy? Why incredibly?
Who wants to prove they're town in mylo? Town (well scum too but mostly town) Who runs out of stuff to prove their "towniness" and quits talking? Scum.
I am not done talking. I am done talking to volt. I have nothing to prove to him. You have questions for me mail-mi, eevee, teproc. then ask.
No, you clearly don't want me to be a part of the conversation.
What?
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I am perfectly willing to engage in a dialogue with anyone else. But not with voltaire. That sort of a dialogue won't lead anywhere productive for town.
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anyone else is free to talk to each other
mail-mi to eevee, teproc to mail-mi, eevee to yuma, someone to mail-mi, teproc to someone
But I am only responding to teproc, eevee or mail-mi.
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Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh ugh. Yuma or volt, what to do.
I know what to do! Reread! I'll do that now.
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Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh ugh. Yuma or volt, what to do.
I know what to do! Reread! I'll do that now.
maybe should have done that before you decided I was scum....
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Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh ugh. Yuma or volt, what to do.
I know what to do! Reread! I'll do that now.
maybe should have done that before you decided I was scum....
Well, I just did. Reread you at least for now. Well, skimmed really, I don't have enough time to fully read 261 posts.
And it really points toward yuma/eevee scumteam. In the posts that I really read (the others I skimmed) he barely mentions eevee at all. Also, all of his votes Day 1 were on town (if volt is town). I'll have to check day 2 again, but I think he votes for eevee... once? Twice maybe? But ultimately is on Voltaire.
Off to reread voltaire.
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Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh ugh. Yuma or volt, what to do.
I know what to do! Reread! I'll do that now.
maybe should have done that before you decided I was scum....
Well, I just did. Reread you at least for now. Well, skimmed really, I don't have enough time to fully read 261 posts.
And it really points toward yuma/eevee scumteam. In the posts that I really read (the others I skimmed) he barely mentions eevee at all. Also, all of his votes Day 1 were on town (if volt is town). I'll have to check day 2 again, but I think he votes for eevee... once? Twice maybe? But ultimately is on Voltaire.
Off to reread voltaire.
shaw.... because voltaire is scummier than eevee. How does this make me scum?
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Ugh. Ugh ugh ugh ugh. Yuma or volt, what to do.
I know what to do! Reread! I'll do that now.
maybe should have done that before you decided I was scum....
Well, I just did. Reread you at least for now. Well, skimmed really, I don't have enough time to fully read 261 posts.
And it really points toward yuma/eevee scumteam. In the posts that I really read (the others I skimmed) he barely mentions eevee at all. Also, all of his votes Day 1 were on town (if volt is town). I'll have to check day 2 again, but I think he votes for eevee... once? Twice maybe? But ultimately is on Voltaire.
Off to reread voltaire.
shaw.... because voltaire is scummier than eevee. How does this make me scum?
I'm pretty sure Eevee is scum. I'm looking for interactions with him. You had very little. Voltaire had more than you (reread), although neither of you had much. Scum want to distance themselves. Ugh ugh ugh which one?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Off to dinner, back in a few
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I will say one thing... I do feel very confident at this point that the scum team isn't mail-mi/eevee.
I think if this were the scum team mail-mi would have placed his vote down on me (he was basically given the OK to do it by voltaire) already and would have then just waited for eevee to get back.
There is a chance the scum team is voltaire-eevee. But I think that is less likely than voltaire-mail-mi given how mail-mi and eevee have responded to me accordingly...
And of course the teproc worst case scenario. But I just have to assume he is town. If he isn't, like I said... we lost this game early day2. So teproc is town.
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Excellent then - I'm actually glad yuma and I agree about that, because in a worst-case scenario where I am wrong, the team involved Teproc and I'm fine losing to that. I'm taking yuma/Eevee to the bank.
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ok.. so i can get on enough to read and post twice a day (morning and evening, our days are busy but the hotel does have an ok wifi).
super tired after a long day of travelling, but after cstching up, my reads are just the same they were before i left. i dont know if there is anything to gain from further discussion, i think its mailmi-voltaire and im willing to go for it in either order.
sleepy time now, but i think I'll be voting in the morning unless teproc wants more discussion. a part of me just wants to cast the die and see if i was right already, its been a stressful ride.
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I think you can vote now, Eevee - from my point of view, you'll vote me, mail-mi will hopefully see what this clearly means (in addition to everything else) and vote yuma, and then we wait for Teproc to decide.
From your point of view, Eevee, you'll expect for mail-mi to vote yuma anyway, so we're just waiting for Teproc to decide.
And yuma has already voted.
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I guess you are right.
vote: voltaire
hopefully I made the right choice.
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vote: Voltaire
Muahahahaha...
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That was my nightmare last night. Ah well, gg.
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That was my nightmare last night. Ah well, gg.
Like, really gg. That was impressive.
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Seriously ? Well, I suck. Not as much as yuma (;)), but I suck.
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Seriously ? Well, I suck. Not as much as yuma (;)), but I suck.
We all thought it couldn't be that. Unless - who was your partner, mail-mi? Yuma or Eevee?
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I want to say I told you so about mail-mi, but I also excluded the Eevee/mail-mi team so... yeah.
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Oh right, it could be yuma/mail-mi too. I would feel less bad about that.
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I think you can vote now, Eevee - from my point of view, you'll vote me, mail-mi will hopefully see what this clearly means (in addition to everything else) and vote yuma, and then we wait for Teproc to decide.
From your point of view, Eevee, you'll expect for mail-mi to vote yuma anyway, so we're just waiting for Teproc to decide.
And yuma has already voted.
If it was mail-mi/yuma I really derped here, didn't I? Dear god I hope it was mail-mi/Eevee.
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I think you can vote now, Eevee - from my point of view, you'll vote me, mail-mi will hopefully see what this clearly means (in addition to everything else) and vote yuma, and then we wait for Teproc to decide.
From your point of view, Eevee, you'll expect for mail-mi to vote yuma anyway, so we're just waiting for Teproc to decide.
And yuma has already voted.
If it was mail-mi/yuma I really derped here, didn't I? Dear god I hope it was mail-mi/Eevee.
Though I guess Eevee would have had to have derped too...so even though I would have been "right" about yuma all game, I sorta hope it wasn't.
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Seriously ? Well, I suck. Not as much as yuma (;)), but I suck.
Clearly I need to work on my powers of persuasion. They never work.
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In any case, TA will have a pretty funny PM I sent him after day 2 where I was, like, 100% sure it was you. I really did think the scumslip was real. You guys talked me out of it, but the tone felt all wrong to me as town.
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In any case, TA will have a pretty funny PM I sent him after day 2 where I was, like, 100% sure it was you. I really did think the scumslip was real. You guys talked me out of it, but the tone felt all wrong to me as town.
Two things:
1. I still don't understand how it was any sort of a slip
2. Welcome to f.ds. Here's lesson 1: SCUMSLIPS ARE NEVER REAL EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER
:)
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Like, it's just not how you catch scum. Ever. Scum are way more careful than that. The "famous scumslip" of 0% flipping town is the exception that proves the rule.
Wait - if you sent that PM to TA then - that lost us the game, didn't it?
WTF
>:(
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Don't take it personally - sorry if it came off that way - but I am super grumpypants right now about that fact.
On the other hand, scum (no matter what the team turns out to be) outplayed us handily.
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Well, there's the Frisk "0% chance I flip town" thing. And it's not really a scumslip per se. It's just, I had this growing feeling of suspicion towards you by the end of day 2 when you were fighting for your life, and it sealed it for me.
I was going to reread yuma very carefully today before I made my choice though. And Eevee voting for you just then was one of the signs I was looking for. Tbh, I still think I would have voted for you though. Sorry :(.
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Well, there's the Frisk "0% chance I flip town" thing.
Like, it's just not how you catch scum. Ever. Scum are way more careful than that. The "famous scumslip" of 0% flipping town is the exception that proves the rule.
Scumslip success rate: probably around (AT MOST) 5% at this point.
But no worries, *handshake*, gg, you played very well for a newbie, very well indeed. Scum, unfortunately, played masterfully.
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mail-mi, get in here and tell us who your partner was.
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Thanks.
Just to be clear : I was sure right after day 2. Much less so these last few days. If I voted for you, it wasn't going to be the main reason.
And yeah, bravo to scum, especially if it's mail-mi/Eeevee.
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Voltaire has been lynched. He was mace tyrell, vanilla townie.
The usurpers, mail-mi and eevee have won!!
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Yeah, so we died as soon as we decided the lynch was Voltaire or yuma. Sigh.
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Poop. MVP to...umm...either of them?
Really, really surprised to see yuma vote first, as town, in lylo.
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Why'd you draw it out so long, guys? You were both online and in the thread at the same time. :P
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Really, really surprised to see yuma vote first, as town, in lylo.
Of course, LVP to myself for being distracted, once again, by yuma all game.
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I really want to read the speccy thread.
I guess I'd give MVP to mail-mi, for getting away with the scummiest voting record in history.
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Meh, I think all town sucked this game. Well, I guess EFHW's hammer was actually irrelevant (since the other option was you), so mainly us three then. Like, we ran the JK up to L-1 all by ourselves (well, I think Eevee was in it too ?), which in turn made it impossible for the BPT to claim at L-1... and we promptly lynched him.
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Meh, I think all town sucked this game. Well, I guess EFHW's hammer was actually irrelevant (since the other option was you), so mainly us three then. Like, we ran the JK up to L-1 all by ourselves (well, I think Eevee was in it too ?), which in turn made it impossible for the BPT to claim at L-1... and we promptly lynched him.
Yeah. You really do have to just laugh, I think.
And lynch lurkers.
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I was lol-ing when everyone ruled out mail-mi/Eevee. Even if you'd lynched one of us, we would have killed teproc and then won.
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I was lol-ing when everyone ruled out mail-mi/Eevee. Even if you'd lynched one of us, we would have killed teproc and then won.
Not necessarily. I certainly would have started questioning my assumptions after that.
I seriously woke up this morning thinking "why in the world is mail-mi so certain Eevee is scum" and was ready to come to the thread posting my worries about the real team (though certainly not changing my mind that it was the most likely), but then I saw yuma's post and calmed down.
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Great game scum. Really pulled the wool over our eyes.
I had fun though! I like this smaller, more intimate, less frilly Mafia environment. And perfect flavor obviously.
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Oh yeah the flavour for the EFHW kill was pretty great too. And I'm sure it was random, but Tywin as Jailkeeper and Walder Frey as BPT... along with VT Ned Stark ! Hilarious.
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And Balon Greyjoy dying first. Because he's a Greyjoy, that's why.
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No! Can I post now? Good job, mail-mi/Eevee! I THINK Eevee should be MVP... mail-mi really was very obviously scummy by the end.
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Yuma, whenever you see this, don't feel bad! I had also concluded 100% that Voltaire was scum, and advocated doing the exact same thing as you.
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Can we has QT links?
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I'll post them when I get home in a few hours. Congrats, eevee and mail-mi!
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I can post the speccy. People don't like to wait!
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/UEyESx5KTJfM
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Yuma, whenever you see this, don't feel bad! I had also concluded 100% that Voltaire was scum, and advocated doing the exact same thing as you.
Yeah, yuma, I was surprised you voted first as town in lylo but I'm not saying what you did was bad or wrong now knowing what I know. I don't blame you one bit, I think I need to take the lion's share of the blame here. I have no idea what I was thinking D1.
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Yuma, whenever you see this, don't feel bad! I had also concluded 100% that Voltaire was scum, and advocated doing the exact same thing as you.
Yeah, yuma, I was surprised you voted first as town in lylo but I'm not saying what you did was bad or wrong now knowing what I know. I don't blame you one bit, I think I need to take the lion's share of the blame here. I have no idea what I was thinking D1.
Oh, well, I don't think you deserve like MORE blame than anyone else. Clearly, I have some bias toward viewing you as scum that I need to correct. I was just telling yuma that I would have made the same mistake, as would most of the speccy.
I actually think you guys SHOULD have followed Eevee's plan to kill mail-mi first, though.
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I actually think you guys SHOULD have followed Eevee's plan to kill mail-mi first, though.
I seriously think I dreamed about the real scum team this morning, I'm not kidding. I actually woke up and got on the thread. That's why you see a post so early in the morning (for me). But then I got all relieved because in a world where yuma was town he was taking the same risk I was and I thought that was ok...and that was the game!
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I guess the speccy QT was as blind as us about Eevee/mail-mi, so that's comforting at least.
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Man, I totally forgot about Walrus's "make sure I get a chance to claim" post...darn.
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Haha don't worry about it, I feel less bad about the whole situation knowing that you were town as well. Town was pretty much just doomed.
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well I was right about Eevee!
Sorry about Walrus. I really thought they were both town, but more sure about Voltaire. And I didn't think we had four votes there for Eevee, and I guess we didn't since mail-mi wouldn't have voted for him. I had also forgotten or somehow missed Walrus's request to claim.
Very glad yuma wasn't scum, and even more glad about Voltaire!
Voltaire you really tried, A for Effort!
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Voltaire you really tried, A for Effort!
I felt SO BAD after Walrus flipped town. I was certain you would be furious at me for playing you after I was initially elated that I convinced you correctly at the last moment!
I also need to correct my read on you, I'm biased into finding you scummy ever since you were (actually) scum in M31. Us nearly lynched the JK really didn't help us.
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Not sure Walrus's claim would have mattered all that much, claiming BPT was incredibly easy for scum at that point.
Maybe if you could have convinced us of the breadcrumb... but then we'd probably have lynched Voltaire, so yeah.
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My personal opinion, yuma may disagree, is that yuma and I both hurt ourselves by making unsubstantiated cases early on - him on me and me on Eevee. Even though I was right about Eevee, there was no way to know that then and it seemed scummy for me to push it. It damaged our credibility in each others' eyes, as well as town's, which was bad b/c we are both decent scumhunters.
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So... we should ALWAYS lynch mail-mi.
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Scummy mail-mi is scum, and not-scummy-mail-mi is usually scum too.
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So... we should ALWAYS lynch mail-mi.
:'(
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Apparently, this setup is cursed and always leads to flawless scum wins. Congrats, mail-mi and Eevee! I didn't see that coming. (Although of course if you all had listened to my final words on D1 ...)
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Voltaire you really tried, A for Effort!
I felt SO BAD after Walrus flipped town. I was certain you would be furious at me for playing you after I was initially elated that I convinced you correctly at the last moment!
I also need to correct my read on you, I'm biased into finding you scummy ever since you were (actually) scum in M31. Us nearly lynched the JK really didn't help us.
I felt so bad too! I am sure yuma was furious with me, and that was hard. But it turns out it would have been worse for him if you had been lynched. I wasn't furious with you - yet. If you had been scum, then I would have been furious, and felt foolish (and therefore more furious).
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Spectator QT:
http://quicktopic.com/50/H/UEyESx5KTJfM
Mod QT:
http://quicktopic.com/50/H/CJJXQSrLkFy4m
Scum QT:
http://quicktopic.com/50/H/vk4sbiXrN8UZU
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Apparently, this setup is cursed and always leads to flawless scum wins. Congrats, mail-mi and Eevee! I didn't see that coming. (Although of course if you all had listened to my final words on D1 ...)
Yet mafiascum uses it as their newbie setup...
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Apparently, this setup is cursed and always leads to flawless scum wins. Congrats, mail-mi and Eevee! I didn't see that coming. (Although of course if you all had listened to my final words on D1 ...)
Yet mafiascum uses it as their newbie setup...
Clearly they're better than us :P
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Yay! We did it, mailmi! I didn't expect yuma and voltaire to be in each others throats like that (as can be seen from our qt), I was playing for a day 4 win but flawless is obviously more fun! I really worked hard to make mailmi/eevee seem not likely to you guys, very pleased we pulled it off.
Why'd you draw it out so long, guys? You were both online and in the thread at the same time. :P
I didn't mean to drag it out, this china trip was a pretty big complication. I didn't want to risk it by attempting a quickhammer.
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booo china has banned quicktopic as well, no seeing what the spectators thought for eevee for a week.
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A really big congrats again to scum, and thanks to TA and nkirbit for modding. This was a great game and I'll happily play this setup over and over (and hopefully better).
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Yes, thanks to both mods! It was fun gameplay and flavor wise!
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A really big congrats again to scum, and thanks to TA and nkirbit for modding. This was a great game and I'll happily play this setup over and over (and hopefully better).
Me too. Someone host this setup!!
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Ok:
Some thoughts...
1. my reads were like the worst this game. I had a good read on Walrus. Felt really good about that and was devastated that he was flipped. I think if more time had been on the table I could have talked EFHW out of it. But like has been mentioned a voltaire flip of town would have spelt my death the next day.
2. I disagree EFHW that our cases on day1 hurt town. I mean they hurt because they were on town players, but you have to develop those sort of cases or else nothing happens.
3. From the scum QT:
I'm not so sure the day was awesome, getting day 1 heat and avoiding the lynch is way better than not getting heat. I'm quite paranoid of getting PoE'd. It's easy to appear towny, hard to appear towny enough to be eliminated from the lynch pool.
This is exactly what I was talking about. The change in meta that Robz and others have introduced and what I was trying to anticipate in regard to my case on Voltaire this last day. So this makes me feel better. It makes me feel better because scum knew that meta and wanted to create it, but couldn't... hence why my read was off.
4. I should have known about eevee. There was one thing that actually tipped me off I think, but I didn't mention it because I didn't want to be "that guy." But day1 during eevee's VLA he posted in Dsell's 4 hours and 0 minutes thread. I received a notification via e-mail that he had posted, but when I came online later the post was deleted. It was a very simple post... can't even remember the content. But it made me wonder if Eevee was scum who was worried that one of us would see that post and then accuse him of being online but not participating in the game during a VLA that he had declared. Maybe I am wrong about this--eevee feel free to let me know what actually happened--but I had a huge post written up about it but eventually decided not to post it because I didn't want to be "that guy that uses outside stuff against other players." But I told myself I would remember it and store it in my pocket... except I didn't until reading through the mafia QT and remembering eevee's VLA... So yeah.
5. my initial vote on voltaire was partially to see if eevee would vote. I tried to semi-goad him into voting before he left on his trip to china. I was confident voltaire was scum, but I was ready to take off my vote if eevee voted (I felt a quickhammer wasn't likely as mail-mi was in school and thought for sure teproc was town) but as the day wore on I became more convinced that voltaire was scum and wasn't worried about a quickhammer... and then when neither voted yesterday I was even more convinced... but ultimately completely and totally wrong.
MVP goes to Eevee. His day2 performance was quite brilliant.
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Thanks yuma, means a lot coming from you.
My vla's are usually "I have a full schedule for x amount of days, I don't want to be the guy that is keeping up with the game from phone when bowling with friends or whatever, and when it's time to go to bed (and it wouldn't be rude anymore), I'm just too exhausted/intoxicated/what have you to read multiple pages and write meaningful commentary". I usually do check the lighter threads from phone still, just don't want to commit to posting because it takes more time and effort. I think I actually deleted that message because I decided to pm the relevant people instead, we now have a cool quicktopic for people who have been logged on for 100 days. :)
I think I mentioned in the qt that being too eager to vote would have been our most likely downfall. After all, the only way to lose would have been to out as both as the scum team. If I had full access, I would have waited even longer - until teproc had voted as well.
Would someone happen to have a convenient way to copy the speccy to some place I could read already? A google doc or something, I'm very interested to read it!
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I am also surprised in reading the speccy that there weren't more people thinking I was mafia... I thought ash would be calling incessantly for my lynch at the least.
Oh... and another thing... I am still not sure that I believe EFHW is town. I felt really, really, really good about my case. I thought for sure that I had found something really good in that she had zero town reads. When I found that, it just blew my mind and made everything else she or anyone else had done inconsequential. It just seemed soooo something that scum would do, or the inverse, something that I just couldn't see town doing as town is supposed to be separating out scum reads from town... thus I still kinda believe that EFHW is scum and that this whole last few days has been a really long trolll....
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I am also surprised in reading the speccy that there weren't more people thinking I was mafia... I thought ash would be calling incessantly for my lynch at the least.
Oh... and another thing... I am still not sure that I believe EFHW is town. I felt really, really, really good about my case. I thought for sure that I had found something really good in that she had zero town reads. When I found that, it just blew my mind and made everything else she or anyone else had done inconsequential. It just seemed soooo something that scum would do, or the inverse, something that I just couldn't see town doing as town is supposed to be separating out scum reads from town... thus I still kinda believe that EFHW is scum and that this whole last few days has been a really long trolll....
!!! Doesn't bode well for our next game together ...
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I am also surprised in reading the speccy that there weren't more people thinking I was mafia... I thought ash would be calling incessantly for my lynch at the least.
Oh... and another thing... I am still not sure that I believe EFHW is town. I felt really, really, really good about my case. I thought for sure that I had found something really good in that she had zero town reads. When I found that, it just blew my mind and made everything else she or anyone else had done inconsequential. It just seemed soooo something that scum would do, or the inverse, something that I just couldn't see town doing as town is supposed to be separating out scum reads from town... thus I still kinda believe that EFHW is scum and that this whole last few days has been a really long trolll....
!!! Doesn't bode well for our next game together ...
permavote: EFHW
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:P